Wikipedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Jennifer O'Neill

2024-09-20T01:29:41Z

209.122.216.158: /* Former Actress */ new section

{{Talk header}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|listas=Oneill, Jennifer|1=
{{WikiProject Biography|filmbio-work-group=yes}}
{{WikiProject United States|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Women's History|importance=low}}
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{{findsources|Jennifer O'Neill}}

==File:Jennifer Oneill 2008 Anti-Abortion Washington DC.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion==
{|
|-
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| An image used in this article, [[commons:File:Jennifer Oneill 2008 Anti-Abortion Washington DC.jpg|File:Jennifer Oneill 2008 Anti-Abortion Washington DC.jpg]], has been nominated for speedy deletion at [[Wikimedia Commons]] for the following reason: ''Copyright violations''
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''Don't panic''; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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* If the image has already been deleted you may want to try [[commons:COM:UR|Commons Undeletion Request]]

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|}

== IN DEFENSE OF THE JENNIFER O'NEILL ARTICLE, AND A NOTE TO ALL READERS: ==
IN DEFENSE OF THE JENNIFER O'NEILL ARTICLE, AND A NOTE TO ALL READERS:
This article has been "tagged" at its beginning since one single Wikipedia editor,
MikeWazowski,believes it to be objectionable and defective in three particular respects.

First, he finds the article to be defective in HIS opinion and reasons that it "...relies
on references to primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject, rather than references
from independent authors and third-party publications." It should be noted that this article does
contain some references to Jennifer O'Neill's 1999 autobiography ''Surviving Myself'', which was
published by William Morrow and Sons Publishing, New York. Apparently, MikeWazowski does not
consider one of the biggest publishing houses in America to be a reliable third-party publication
source. The total absurdity of this position speaks for itself.

Additionally, under Wikipedia policy guidelines, personal and official websites CAN be used as
a source and as a citation. See: [[Biographies of living persons#Using the subject as a self-published source]]

Secondly, MikeWazowski finds this article defective in that in HIS opinion this article
contains "...wording that merely promotes the subject without imparting verifiable information."
The factual material in this article is accurate, and true and correct WITH citations. MikeWazowski
offers his conclusory general opinion that this article is simply Jennifer O'Neill (self-)promoting
without citation to a single example of it in the entire article.

Third, MikeWazowski find this article defective in that in HIS opinion the article contains
improper references to "self-published sources." Once again, he apparently consider her
autobiography which was disseminated by a third party publishing house, William Morrow and Sons,
New York, to be an "unreliable" "self-published source".

Finally, the validity of these negative criticisms must be viewed in light of the source of
the accusations in the case. The reader only needs to go to the user talkpage for MikeWazowski to
find it is filled with questions from numerous other editors to explain his edits, strike-outs, and
deletion of entire pages and articles, which he simply totally ignores. It is also significant
that MikeWazowski has been invited to make corrections to any material he finds objectionable, but
has refused to do so.

This fact can and should speak volumes, more than any words. [[User:Taninao0126|Taninao0126]] ([[User talk:Taninao0126|talk]]) 20:22, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
: Tanina, your tirade verges dangerously close to a [[WP:NPA|personal attack]] -- please avoid this and stick to discussion of article content.
: The clause you cited ([[WP:SELFPUB]]) clearly indicates that self-published sources can only be used under very limited circumstances, including the circumstance that they not be the primary source for an article or section. O'Neill's autobiography is used too heavily as a source for this article, which is a cause for concern. Surely, O'Neill's publishers might be trusted to fact-check her autobiography, but they would not neutralize it -- her autobiography is a self-serving attempt to make her life appear what she wants it to be, not a [[WP:NPOV|neutral]] examination of her life.
: In your initial series of edits to this article, you introduced much non-neutral language that has subsequently been addressed. Phrases such as "She is well remembered for her success in the blockbuster movie" are ''not'' neutral. Phrases such as "she is most notable for her role in the film" ''are'' neutral. Same facts, different tone.
: You are a new editor whose sole focus has been this article (or some quick edits at ''[[Summer of '42]]''). You appear to be a devoted fan of Ms O'Neill -- that's great. But please take the advice of more experienced editors to heart, rather than fighting with them. [[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]][[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]][[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]] 13:16, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

:: Tanina, I agree with MikeWazowski and WikiDan61 here, and recommend reading [[WP:TIGERS]] about passionate editing. Autobiographies can be used, but only sparingly. We rely on [[WP:V|verifiable]] [[WP:RS|independent reliable sources]] to support claims made in articles, especially in [[WP:BLP|biographies of living persons]]. Wikipedia is [[WP:NOT|not intended]] to be a publicity outlet or a fan site.
:: Please don't be discouraged by any of WikiDan61's or my words - please keep contributing in a positive way, per the [[WP:Five pillars]]. --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 07:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

== Suggestions ==

Based on conversations here and various user talk pages, it seems that the most [[WP:CIVIL|civil]] way to have the {{tlx|primary sources}} and {{tlx|self-published}} templates removed is to add more third-party [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Here are some suggestions you can find sources:
* Articles on [http://search.people.com/results.html?Ntt=Jennifer+O%27Neill&type=ch%3ANews%3B&searchSubmit=Search People.com] (I updated the article with two references from this site)
* Articles from [http://query.nytimes.com/search/alternate/query?query=%22Jennifer+O%27Neill%22&st=fromcse ''The New York Times'']
* Change the [[Jennifer O'Neill#External links|external links]] at the end of the article to references that support individual sentences.
* Copy any appropriate references from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Jennifer_O%27Neill&namespace=0&limit=100 Wikipedia articles that link to Jennifer O'Neill]
* [http://www.google.com Google search]
* Dig up offline magazine interviews, such as [http://www.coverart.com/1965/06/ghk196506-jennifer-oneill/ Good Housekeeping 1965], [http://www.ciaovogue.com/2010/08/15th-october-1967-us-vogue.html Vogue October 15, 1967] and [http://www.fanpix.net/picture-gallery/jennifer-o-neill-picture-15016355.htm ''Cosmopolitan'' February 1973]
I hope that others can suggest more possible resources.

I also suggest people add inline templates such as {{tlx|citation needed}}, {{tlx|better source}}, {{tlx|self-published inline}} or {{tlx|peacock term}} to those sentences most in need of references or rewording.

Happy editing! [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 03:07, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

== Re: Using autobio as a source. Query: How, why does one single person get to decide and have the final say? ==

MikeWaznoski is the one who has actually crossed the line and made a personal attack on me! This is apparent from his response on his talk page. He has stated that "...the maintenance tags stay". How does HE get to decide and make the final decision, simply because he decides he is going to? I do not understand. As to further discussion as to content, it is also stated here (above) that autobios are not favored source of information, and O'Neill's should not be either because "....her autobiography is a self-serving attempt to make her life appear what she wants it to be, not a [[WP:NPOV|neutral]] examination of her life." This broad statement, however applicable it may be in other circumstances, does not apply here. However, as is clearly chronicled and discussed in her autobio autobiography, O'Neill has had nine miscarriages, a broken nose three times, one suicide attempt with pills and later electroshock therapy at a mental facility she checked in to during her first marriage for stress, a broken back and neck in three places from a horse back riding accident, a breast cancer tumor (benign), her daughter's sexual abuse by her fifth husband John Lederer, who also went through all her money leaving her broke, an accidental gunshot wound to herself in the navel, and an unfaithful sixth husband Richard A. Alan who cheated on her with prostitutes. O'Neill says that she wrote this autobiography (her first book) "…at the prompting of her children." Do this in any way sound like an attempt to make her life appear what it was NOT? Hardly so. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.194.230.182|98.194.230.182]] ([[User talk:98.194.230.182|talk]]) 14:25, 16 February 2012 (UTC) 

: Yes, this does sound like an attempt to make her life what it may or may not be. A statement like that makes her sound like a victim of multiple bad circumstances who has, nevertheless, risen above her troubles and persevered. I.e., it makes her sound somewhat saintly, which certainly violates [[WP:NPOV]]. Also, when one writes in one's autobiography that one has suffered "an accidental gunshot wound to herself in the navel", one may (or may not) be covering up an attempted suicide. Without an independent source on the subject, we can't say, but this self-published source is insufficient for such statements. And, for the record, MikeW is simply stating Wikipedia policy. It is not ''his'' decision that the templates should stay, it is Wikipedia policy. True, the policies are open to interpretation, and it was his interpretation that led to the templates being replaced, but other editors (myself and GoingBatty at least) have been keeping an eye on developments on this article, and do not disagree with MikeW's actions. It would appear that the [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] opinion here is that the templates should remain until sources other than Ms. O'Neill's autobiography can be found to verify the various statements regarding her personal life. [[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]][[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]][[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]] 14:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

P.S. For the record and content wise, the autobio listing of "multiple bad circumstances" are assertions of material fact, in that they actually happened -- is there the thought she is just lying about such bad things happening to her? Your statement that it makes her "sound saintly" and like a victim because she has "risen above her troubles" which is self-serving and thus contrary to Wiki policy, and what you fail to realize is that this is your own evaluative, subjective and interpretive commentary ON these facts. All this just goes to show once again that the grey area between "objective" and "subjective" is itself often not clearly defined and subject to differing and varying interpretation(s). [[Special:Contributions/98.194.230.182|98.194.230.182]] ([[User talk:98.194.230.182|talk]]) 15:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
: You can argue about interpretation of facts all day long. The fact is that Wikipedia policy bars the use of self-published material as the sole significant source for such information. Self-published material is only to be used in strict narrowly-defined circumstances, and this article does not meet those circumstances. If you wish to fight Wikipedia policy, this is not the forum to do so. [[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]][[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]][[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]] 15:51, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
:Note that I'm not making any judgement on her autobiography, web site, or any other self-published source. I'm hoping that we can move past the attacks and SHOUTING, and use this forum to discuss the best way to improve the article. To me, it seems the only way to do so is to start adding references. Would everyone in this conversation be willing to add one new third-party reference to the article? [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 17:42, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

== Addition of new item with independent verifiable 3rd party ref. to a source called THE NEW YORK TIMES ==

To MikeWazowski: RE: The Jennifer O'Neill article, I added a historical fact
about her getting shot, and documented the item with a verifiable reference to an
independent third party publication called THE NEW YORK TIMES. Do a Google search on
it if you have never heard of it. There had been some talk page discussion that
this "self-inflicted" gunshot wound was really a suicide attempt, but police ruled
it an accidental shooting as per the NEW YORK TIMES article. This event has obvious
historical and biographical significance. For someone to get shot in the abdomen is a pretty significant and memorable event in anyone's life and worthy of mention. Ask yourself,
"when was the last time you nearly died?"

MikeWazowshi be forewarned: You are using the talk page to talk about a contributor
instead of commenting on content, in violation of Wikipedia talkpage guidelines. Your
deletion of this recent edit will only prove that you are engaged in an editing war, and your
violation of talk page guidelines and editing war with another editor will get you blocked
without further notice! [[User:Taninao0126|Taninao0126]] ([[User talk:Taninao0126|talk]]) 13:29, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

:Hi Taninao0126 - Mike didn't delete [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jennifer_O%27Neill&diff=483521977&oldid=478955515 your recent edit]. Another user [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jennifer_O%27Neill&diff=next&oldid=483521977 added the proper formatting], but left the text you contributed in place. I don't see any editing war regarding your recent contribution. [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 16:39, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

== Removal of Maintenance Tags - Jennifer O'Neill article - ==

Removal of Maintenance Tags - Jennifer O'Neill article -

I have asked you before specifics on this topic, and I will do so again. You tagged this article with the following maintenance tags:

"This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
It relies on references to primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject, rather than references from independent authors and third-party publications. Tagged since February 2012.
It may contain wording that merely promotes the subject without imparting verifiable information. Tagged since February 2012.
It may contain improper references to self-published sources. Tagged since February 2012."

Since you were the one who put these maintenance on there, you are the one who has the burden of justifying their existence.

I will ask you again: for each one of the above three points, you need to point out specifically and with particularity which points, references or info in the article that you claim raises the issues on the tags you claim apply. These points cannot be addressed, discussed, or even changed without some type of specification by you. Any idiot can get into any article and tag it just because they feel like it or simply just because they can. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU TAGGED THIS ARTICLE WITHOUT LISTING, SPECIFYING, OR CITING THE POINTS IN THE ARTICLE YOU CLAIM JUSTIFY THE IMPOSITION OF SUCH A MAINTENANCE TAG. FAILURE TO RESPOND TO THIS, AND FAILURE TO SPECIFY OR CITE WHAT PARTICULAR ITEMS FORM YOUR BASIS FOR A MAINTENANCE TAG, WILL BE DEEMED AN ADMISSION BY YOU THAT YOUR MAINTENANCE TAGS WERE INDEED FRIVOLOUS AND TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

In other words, any idiot can say "well this article needs improvement" but unless you tell us all, pray tell in your infinite wisdom, THE SPECIFIC POINTS OR ITEMS that YOU SAY need improvement, your failure to do so is more proof evident that you are simply engaged in a frivolous editing war with another editor for whatever unknown reason. [[User:Taninao0126|Taninao0126]] ([[User talk:Taninao0126|talk]]) 19:43, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
: Tanina, firstly I would ask you to dial back your attitude and maintain [[WP:CIVIL|civility]]. This is not a case of a single user making these decitions: multiple editors have reviewed your comments over the past several months, and yet these maintenance templates remain. So, let's address them one by one:
:# "This article relies on references [[WP:PS|primary sources]]": This article cites sources 18 times. Of those 18, ten of the citations are to O'Neill's own autobiography or other books, or to websites closely associated with her (such as [http://thegrablegroup.com/other-clients/internationally-acclaimed-actress-jennifer-oneill/ Grable Group], her agents as a speaker, or [http://www.hillengladehhh.com/ Hillenglade], the horse farm/rehab facility she runs). When sources other than these primary sources can be found to cite the given facts, this tag can be removed.
:# The [[WP:PEACOCK|peackock terms]] warning (may contain wording that merely promotes the subject) is easily enough handled by simply changing a few words to more neutral words. (I've already done this.)
:# The [[WP:SPS|self-published sources]] warning ("may contain improper references to self-published sources") is largely redundant with the [[WP:PS|primary sources]] warning. There is a flavor of difference, in that primary sources are defined as being sources related to the subject (such as websites promoting her speaking career) whereas self-published sources are those written by the subject herself (such as her autobiography), but the difference is too subtle to be worth having both warnings. The basic issue is that neither primary nor self-published sources can be expected to be [[WP:NPOV|neutral]], and so should not be overly relied upon. [[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]][[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]][[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]] 20:00, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

== Parents ==

I understand that her father was Oscar O'Neill, a war hero. He was a B-17 pilot during WW II, shot down over Germany and survived being a POW for the rest of the war. Maybe that's an interesting bit of history which should be included?[[Special:Contributions/98.170.198.158|98.170.198.158]] ([[User talk:98.170.198.158|talk]]) 00:13, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
::::If you can prove that her father is actually Captain Oscar D. O'Neill, USAAC, B-17 ''Invasion 2nd'', 401st Bomber Squadron, 91st Bomber Group, shot down and taken prisoner on 17 August 1943... — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.8.98.118|212.8.98.118]] ([[User talk:212.8.98.118|talk]]) 10:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC) 
:::::::Congratulations: you seem to be right, and my scepticism is unfounded. It's an interesting bit of history which should be included, as you pointed out in December 2014. According to this Brazilian source, Oscar Delgado O'Neill was born in Brazil and Jennifer is his daughter_"http://tokdehistoria.com.br/tag/oscar-d-oneill/" — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.8.98.118|212.8.98.118]] ([[User talk:212.8.98.118|talk]]) 11:47, 20 August 2015 (UTC) 

== An interesting observation about herself ==

I remember seeing her on a TV talk show. I don't recall which show it was, but she said rather candidly about her many marriages "I didn't date, I married." — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.255.160.156|71.255.160.156]] ([[User talk:71.255.160.156|talk]]) 21:49, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

== Former Actress ==

She is not a former actress. she had a part in Reagan that just came out. [[Special:Contributions/209.122.216.158|209.122.216.158]] ([[User talk:209.122.216.158|talk]]) 01:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Katherine Jackson

2024-09-16T11:49:16Z

209.122.216.158: /* Tito Jackson's Date of Death */ new section

{{Talk header}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|class=Start|living=yes|listas=Jackson, Katherine|1=
{{WikiProject Biography}}
{{WikiProject Janet Jackson|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Michael Jackson|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject African diaspora|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Alabama}}
{{WikiProject United States|importance=Low|IN=yes|IN-importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject California|importance=|southerncalifornia=yes|southerncalifornia-importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Women}}
}}
{{Image requested|people}}
{{annual readership}}

== Orphaned references in [[:Katherine Jackson]] ==

I check pages listed in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for [[User:AnomieBOT/docs/OrphanReferenceFixer|orphaned references]] in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of [[:Katherine Jackson]]'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for ''this'' article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "GQ":<ul>
<li>From [[Jackie Jackson]]: {{cite web|author=Charlie Burton|url=https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/jacksons-legacy-jackson-5|title=Inside the Jackson machine|date=2018-02-07|access-date=2019-10-24}}</li>
<li>From [[The Jackson 5]]: {{cite web|author=Charlie Burton|url=https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/jacksons-legacy-jackson-5|title=Inside the Jackson machine|publisher=[[GQ]]|date=2018-02-07|access-date=2019-10-24}}</li>
<li>From [[Jermaine Jackson]]: {{cite web|author=Charlie Burton|url=https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/jacksons-legacy-jackson-5|title=Inside the Jackson machine|date=February 7, 2018|access-date=October 24, 2019}}</li>
</ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. [[User:AnomieBOT|AnomieBOT]][[User talk:AnomieBOT|⚡]] 01:27, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

== Her son mickle ==

Love micolejason [[Special:Contributions/75.177.23.191|75.177.23.191]] ([[User talk:75.177.23.191|talk]]) 03:35, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* [[commons:File:Katherine Jackson.png|Katherine Jackson.png]]
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 22:21, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

== Tito Jackson's Date of Death ==

He died on September 15, 2024. [[Special:Contributions/209.122.216.158|209.122.216.158]] ([[User talk:209.122.216.158|talk]]) 11:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Mike Cubbage

2024-08-16T19:43:27Z

209.122.216.158:

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start| blp=no|listas=Cubbage, Mike|
{{WikiProject Biography|sports-priority=low|sports-work-group=yes}}
{{WikiProject Baseball |mets=yes|college=yes|importance=Low|twins=yes|twins-importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Virginia|importance=low}}
}}

== His passing ==He died on August 10, 2024.
The Nationals honored Mike Cubbage today with a moment of silence to mark his passing. Should update the page. [[Special:Contributions/173.73.24.251|173.73.24.251]] ([[User talk:173.73.24.251|talk]]) 22:12, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of Major League Baseball no-hitters

2022-11-03T03:38:46Z

209.122.216.158: /* No Hitter */ new section

{{WikiProject Baseball|class=List|importance=High|oldtime=yes|oldtime-importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Lists|class=List}}

==formatting==

Should the abbreviation formatting for 'interleague' be consistent with that for the other leagues? I see where you're coming from, making it consistent with NL, AL, etc., but I think interleague is different than the other leagues, and should probably be i.l. or il, because IL would seem appropiate for, for instance, a league such as International League. [[User:65.32.209.199|65.32.209.199]] 05:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

==Phillies' Name==

Although several news paper writers lobbied to have the Phillies' name changed to both the Quakers and the Live Wires, these never took and were never official names for the team. They have always been the Phillies. ~CharlieFandango

== Anibal Sanchez no-hitter ==

Anibal Sanchez is now the latest no-hitter from the Miami, Florida Marlins of the National League (1st rookie since Bud Smith of 2001) against the Arizona Diamondbacks (last team with a no-hitter and perfect game). [[User:DaDoc540|DaDoc540]] 01:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

== Formatting ==

Why does the NL get a nice chart and the AL gets crap? Someone needs to reformat this page, please.[[User:Amber388|Amber388]] 16:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
:The NL table was created by [[User:Gephart|Gephart]] on September 8. [[User:MisfitToys|MisfitToys]] 19:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
:I created an AL tabled version here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Major_League_Baseball_no-hitters&oldid=66272924 but I didn't like exactly how it looked, so I removed it. I think there is something "neat" and "simple" about having the list as a bulletted list, as opposed to a table. You could revert back to that if you want though. [[User:X96lee15|X96lee15]] 19:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

==Sources==
Where are we getting some of this info? I posted two sources to the page but I am wondering where some of the detail comes from. We have Silver King listed as pitching an eight-inning no-hitter in 1890, but of the two sources I referenced, Retrosheet has no note saying he didn't pitch nine innings and the ESPN list omits Silver King entirely while inculding other less-than-nine-inning games. What gives? [[User:Vidor|Vidor]] 17:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

==Interleague==

I changed it so that all the interleague no-hitters appear on the AL and NL lists as well as the Interleague list. Looks better than a note that says "See Interleague", and it makes it alot easier for someone to make a quick reference than having to play connect-the-dots between multiple lists. (Note: I forgot to log in before making the changes so my alterations dont appear under my account name, whoops!)

==Link Error==

The "Mark Williamson" in record #223 is a link to a very different "Mark H. Williamson, OBE" -- not the baseball player.

With regard to the Phillies, baseball-reference.com (which is highly reliable) lists the franchise as competing as the Quakers from 1883-1889, and as the Blue Jays from 1943-1944.
[[User:DMTate|DMTate]] 16:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

== Coloration ==
Do You believe that we should color code the perfect games with another color, like red for perfect games, blue for no hitters. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Metsman|Metsman]] ([[User talk:Metsman|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Metsman|contribs]]) 15:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC) 

==New data column in table==
The chart should have a column that shows the park/stadium the game was played in. Another chart showing total number of no-hitters in each park and by team. Also number of no-hitters for and against by team. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/56.0.143.25|56.0.143.25]] ([[User talk:56.0.143.25|talk]]) 08:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC) 
:I'd recommend adding the new column between Date and Pitcher. [[User:MisfitToys|MisfitToys]] ([[User talk:MisfitToys|talk]]) 01:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

== Angels-Dodgers game 6/28/2008 ==

Over the past 24 hours, numerous attempts have been made to put this game into the Official List of MLB no-hitters as entry #257. This game was not an official no-hitter (per MLB's revised 1991 rules) and should be listed in the "Shortened games" section below the table. Whether it's listed as an "American League" game (since the Angels, the team throwing the no-hitter, are an AL team) or placed in a new "Interleague Play" section seems debatable (since this is the first "near-miss" no-hitter in an interleague game). But, it seems that under no circumstances should the game be listed as a "National League game." —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.134.201.150|69.134.201.150]] ([[User talk:69.134.201.150|talk]]) 20:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 

== Notes column ==

For the "official" no-hitters table, the new Notes column is a useful place to put unusual aspects of a no-hitter. Some examples:
* Two no-hitters on the same day
* No-hitters by the same pitcher in back-to-back starts
* Two no-hitters between the same two teams in consecutive games
* A no-hitter by a pitcher in his first or second career game
* A no-hitter by a pitcher in his first or second career start (whether or not it's his first or second career game)
* Details of a post-season no-hitter
* A no-hitter on opening day
* A no-hitter on a team's final day of play or in their final game of the season
* A no-hitter that clinches (or clinches a tie for) a division title, wild-card spot, playoff berth or (pre-1969) league pennant
* A game that remains a no-hitter thru extra innings
* An official no-hitter that results in a loss (under new MLB rules, must be a 9-inning home loss or a loss in extra innings)

[[User:Uncsports|UNC Sports]] ([[User talk:Uncsports|talk]]) 21:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
--—[[User:Borgarde|Borgarde]][[User Talk:Borgarde|talk]] 03:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

== 5 No Hitters not listed ==

Retrosheet and Baseballlibrary list 1 National Association and 5 Federal League No Hitters, 5 more than in the list. Why? The NA is not always considered a major league, that can be a reason for this one, but what about the FL No Hitters? --[[Special:Contributions/217.93.232.216|217.93.232.216]] ([[User talk:217.93.232.216|talk]]) 18:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

*I added the NA no-hitter (a little hesitantly because I don't know how to treat the NA's status as a major league), I wasn't aware of the four Federal League no-no's missing from the page until I looked at the Retrosheet link further. I've noticed that the online Sporting News record book doesn't include any of the Federal League no-hitters, not even the one listed on Wikipedia. I'm willing to add them assuming that my addition of Borden's NA no-hitter was acceptable. -- [[User:Transaspie|Transaspie]] ([[User talk:Transaspie|talk]]) 03:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
:According to many things I've read, the NA is not currently considered a Major League, even though it was the highest level of professional baseball in the country, but historians have problems with the reliability of the games, as gambling was very much entrenched in the game. But the FL has been treated as a Major League since its existence. I would include those no-hitters, and technically speaking, the Borden no-hitter would not be considered a "Major League" no-hitter, but personally, I think it should stay on the list because as time goes by, people consider it a Major League when they reference it.[[User:Neonblak|Neonblak]] ([[User talk:Neonblak|talk]]) 09:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::It's reasonable to list the Borden no-hitter, as the NA was the top professional league (albeit pretty much the only one). ''The Sporting News'' record book does list other Fed accomplishments. The Elias book does not list any Fed no-hitters either. What are the circumstances of the Fed no-hitters that you're talking about? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] ''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]'' 03:25, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Although Retrosheet lists several FL no-hitters [http://www.retrosheet.org/nohit_chrono.htm] there are no corresponding box scores. I find it hard to believe that the record keepers would have missed those no-hitters. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] ''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]'' 03:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

== Jason Varitek ==

Is it worth mentioning that Jason Varitek has caught more no hitters than any other catcher in baseball history? I mean, at the very least I think we should include who caught the game in one of the columns. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:CptBuck|CptBuck]] ([[User talk:CptBuck|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CptBuck|contribs]]) 03:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC) 
:What's your source for that interesting tidbit? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] ''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]'' 03:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
::As of August 12, 2018, Carlos Ruiz has tied Varitek with 4 no-nos caught, including a perfect game by Roy Halladay. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:194:4100:117b:1462:6288:332f:6517|2601:194:4100:117b:1462:6288:332f:6517]] ([[User talk:2601:194:4100:117b:1462:6288:332f:6517#top|talk]]) 19:13, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

== Formatting WTF ==

I've had it with this stupid table. All I did was add a note on Vida Blue's second no-hitter and the catchers in the new catchers column. I formatted it exactly the same way as I saw the combined Houston no-hitter formatted with the exception of a 4 instead of 6 in the rowspan entry, but in the preview it keeps coming out as a bunch of jumbled garbage. What the hell is wrong with this?:

|-
|rowspan="4"|194||rowspan="4"|September 28, 1975||rowspan="4"|[[Vida Blue]] (2) (5 inn.)||rowspan="4"|[[Oakland Athletics]]||rowspan="4"|5||rowspan="4"|[[Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim|California Angels]]||rowspan="4"|0||rowspan="4"|AL||rowspan="4"|Gene Tenace, Ray Fosse||rowspan="4"|[[American League]] record for pitchers used in a no-hitter. Final day of the regular season
|-
|[[Glenn Abbott]] (1 inn.)
|-
|[[Paul Lindblad]] (1 inn.)
|-
|[[Rollie Fingers]] (2 inn.)
|-

I've been screwing with it for the past 20 minutes but it's still screwed up. I'm really frustrated with it. Could somebody smarter than me fix this. -- [[User talk: E. Brown|Hurricane]][[User:E. Brown|ERIC]] - '''Class of '08:''' ''XVII Maius MMVIII'' 19:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

**I got it fixed shortly afterwards. ([[Special:Contributions/173.2.225.105|173.2.225.105]] ([[User talk:173.2.225.105|talk]]) 23:05, 24 July 2009 (UTC))

==Notes section==
*Would anyone object to moving the notes section to a line under each no-hitter/perfect game that has a note? ([[Special:Contributions/173.2.225.105|173.2.225.105]] ([[User talk:173.2.225.105|talk]]) 23:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC))

==Table changes==

*I'm fixing a formatting issue in the table (1917 Ruth/Shore) and removing the note hide/display boxes. I think they're unnecessary and at best they're inconsistent - there's usually not enough information to bother hiding it. I may make a later attempt at a sortable table, though multi-pitcher no hitters make this interesting. [[User:Ajphctp46|Alex]] ([[User talk:Ajphctp46|talk]]) 18:59, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

*I'm going to use a sub table for multi-pitcher no-hitters, thus allowing the table to become sortable, without losing any information or formatting. This will require removing the year divisions, which I find arbitrary in the first place - they help the table of contents, but otherwise don't do a whole lot. [[User:Ajphctp46|Alex]] ([[User talk:Ajphctp46|talk]]) 19:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

*It'd be nice to be able to tell which team was the home team [[Special:Contributions/173.74.9.164|173.74.9.164]] ([[User talk:173.74.9.164|talk]]) 06:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

== 265 or 266? ==

This page numbers MLB no-hitters at 265, while [[no-hitter]] says 266. Who's right? --[[User:Jesdisciple|Jesdisciple]] ([[User talk:Jesdisciple|talk]]) 00:01, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
:Oh, I just thought to check and 266 are actually listed on this page. Will change the figure accordingly. --[[User:Jesdisciple|Jesdisciple]] ([[User talk:Jesdisciple|talk]]) 00:06, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

==Gallaragga no-hitter?==
Should it be listed here? I believe the bad call counted as a hit, not an error. Sure, I agree it was a bad call and should have been a perfect game, but I don't think it even counts as a no-hitter. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:RHolecko|RHolecko]] ([[User talk:RHolecko|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/RHolecko|contribs]]) 10:59, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 
:Shouldn't it at least be a "near no-hitter?" --[[User:Civ2boss|Civ2boss]] ([[User talk:Civ2boss|talk]]) 14:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
::Armando Gallaraga's performance, while impressive, was not a no-hitter, and I don't think we need a "no-hitters that are unrecognized" category consisting merely of that. --[[User:Lkjhgfdsa|Lkjhgfdsa]] ([[User talk:Lkjhgfdsa|talk]]) 00:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

== Catchers ==

Is who caught a no-hitter really so important that we have a column for it? Especially with so many blank entries, I'm thinking it should be removed. This table is massive enough as it is. --[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu|talk]]) 16:48, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
:No responses.... I'm deleting the column when I have the time unless someone objects. --[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu|talk]]) 23:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
::I just noticed this, I like the catcher column personally, and thought at one time adding the home plate umpire as well, but your right in that it doesn't really matter who the catcher or umpire was. I can live without it.[[User:Neonblak|Neonblak]] [[User talk:Neonblak|talk]] - 04:09, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
:::I had second thoughts about removing it after seeing Roy Halladay's press conference today where he praised Ruiz. This table is really big though, and I think it should be reduced a bit in width somehow. --[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu|talk]]) 04:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
::::I agree, I would like to see photos down the right side like many lists. Maybe getting rid of one of the score columns would unscrunch it a bit.[[User:Neonblak|Neonblak]] [[User talk:Neonblak|talk]] - 04:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to have a more thorough discussion on this matter: should the catcher column remain? – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 19:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

== Bill Stoneman no-hitters ==

the notes in this section contain several errors pertaining to Bill Stoneman's no-hitters. The notes for his 1969 no-hitter say it was pitched in Montreal. That is not correct; he pitched his first one in Philadelphia. He pitched the first no-hitter in Canada in 1972. --[[User:Lovemyexpos|Lovemyexpos]] ([[User talk:Lovemyexpos|talk]]) 22:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[[File:]]

== The notes have to go ==

If this page is ever going to reach FL status, which should be our goal, a number of things need to change, including deleting the "notes" from the table. Anything that's really pertinent can stay on the page in prose, with a citation. However, lots of the "notes" items are inconsequential and [[WP:TRIVIA|trivial]]. If a note is notable to the player, it can go on the player's page. Notice how the notes exist mainly for the more recent no-hitters. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 18:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

==Separate Column to denote Perfect Games==

Currently, one can't really isolate perfect games. It's just an italicized pitcher name. I tried to make an extra column for this so that one can sort the perfect games into a block, but that was reverted with the idea that it should be discussed. So here it is :) — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.131.228.56|64.131.228.56]] ([[User talk:64.131.228.56|talk]]) 22:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC) 
:Instead of having a separate column, I would prefer perfect games get their own colour to mark them out, maybe in the # and Date columns? We'd need to find a way to meet [[WP:ACCESS]] though. —[[User:Strange Passerby|Strange Passerby]] ([[User talk:Strange Passerby|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Strange Passerby|cont]]) 04:08, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
::I agree, a separate color would be good. As with the list of world series champions. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] ''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]'' [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 04:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
:::It can't be a color on the name, because some of the perfect game pitchers are in the HoF, and already have a color. I guess the date might be the best way? I dunno, something about it doesn't seem right to me. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 16:17, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
::why is a separate column a bad idea? — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.131.228.56|64.131.228.56]] ([[User talk:64.131.228.56|talk]]) 05:35, 17 June 2012 (UTC) 

== Catchers ==

I finally completed the catchers, using mostly newspaper accounts. The rest came from a source that would probably be considered non-reliable, but is accurate in comparison with the newspaper box scores, and starting with 1916, with SABR through Retrosheet. When better resources become easily obtainable, they can replace this site. The new information here now contradicts team no-hitter pages, like the Cubs.[[User:Neonblak|Neonblak]] [[User talk:Neonblak|talk]] - 18:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

== Coloration of Astros 2003 joint no-hitter. ==

I was wondering what we should do about the coloration of the Astros 2013 joint no hitter. Should we make it blue and gray striped to denote active players (Dotel, Oswalt, technically Lidge) and gray to denote the retired players (Saarloos and Munro)? Should we make it a different color entirely? Should we add a note? Is there a way to make it so that only certain players are highlighted in a color to denote their active or retired status? [[User:MAINEiac4434|MAINEiac4434]] ([[User talk:MAINEiac4434|talk]]) 05:02, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

==Untitled==

There ARE links with the box scores in newspapers readily available online. Unfortunately, the lazy editor of this page operates much in the same fashion the folks at all the major statistical database sites do and REFUSES to provide those links, instead giving us bogus 1 paragraph story summary links with NO DATA!!!! Why not do the work and give us proper links???? — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/143.236.125.100|143.236.125.100]] ([[User talk:143.236.125.100#top|talk]]) 10:12, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

== Empty space ==

When I scroll to the very bottom of the article, outside of article space there's a pretty large chunk of empty page space. Is anyone else getting this? I've never seen this before. Perhaps this is space allocated to pay respects for the unfortunate would-be no-hitters broken up with two outs in the 9th. [[User:Lizard the Wizard|Lizard]] ([[User talk:Lizard the Wizard|talk]]) 04:06, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on [[List of Major League Baseball no-hitters]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=781015457 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080526075129/http://www.baseballlibrary.com/chronology/byyear.php?year=1890 to http://www.baseballlibrary.com/chronology/byyear.php?year=1890

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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''InternetArchiveBot''']] ([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]]) 15:36, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

== Catcher records ==

Looking at the list, I've noticed two interesting facts about the catchers with multiple games caught:
–There have been 11 pitcher-catcher pairs who have collaborated on more than one no-hitter; the 22 total games with this distinction include 3 perfect games.
–Ron Hassey is the only catcher to catch TWO perfect games (Len Barker's in 1981, and Dennis Martinez' in 1991.)
Perhaps these could be mentioned in the second paragraph at the top. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:194:4100:117b:1462:6288:332f:6517|2601:194:4100:117b:1462:6288:332f:6517]] ([[User talk:2601:194:4100:117b:1462:6288:332f:6517#top|talk]]) 19:25, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

== Formating ==

You should change formating for the perfect game. Italic is kind of difficult to notice. It should be visually more distinctive . [[Special:Contributions/213.149.62.165|213.149.62.165]] ([[User talk:213.149.62.165|talk]]) 15:05, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

== Buerhle's perfect game ==

For Mark Buerhle's perfect game, in 2009, where he also eventually set the record for consecutive batters retired, it is not clear that it is a perfect game and in fact without knowing appears to be a no hitter only. As the text says (paraphrasing) "the same umpire was involved with both of Buerhle's no hitters"...a bigger question to be had is if there should be a marker on the table that distinguishes perfect games from no hitters [[User:Aglo123|Aglo123]] ([[User talk:Aglo123|talk]]) 14:52, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Oops, scratch this. There already is an italics system. Please disregard! [[User:Aglo123|Aglo123]] ([[User talk:Aglo123|talk]]) 14:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

== Televised games ==

A user is adding details of the televised broadcasts of games to the footnotes ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Major_League_Baseball_no-hitters&type=revision&diff=1014929989&oldid=1014529179 see these edits]). I see nothing remarkable about this as all MLB games are televised and have been for some time. I propose removing such footnotes unless there is something more notable than just "this game was broadcast on channel ''X''". Even cutting away from another game doesn't seem particularly remarkable, indeed I would almost expect it for a no-hitter. --[[User:Jameboy|Jameboy]] ([[User talk:Jameboy|talk]]) 21:00, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
:The distinction in these cases is that the games were ''nationally'' televised (as opposed to just in local markets), which is definitely more rare, although I'm unsure if it's rare enough to be noted. [[User:Sbb618|Sbb618]] ([[User talk:Sbb618|talk]]) 23:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

== Single team no hitters? ==

Do we really need a subsection for each team's individual no hitter with a bunch of repetitive notes on "First and only". I think that's a given with only a single no hitter. Just have a single table.

== No Hitter ==

Rafael Montero was also part of that World Series Game 4 no-hitter in 2022 [[Special:Contributions/209.122.216.158|209.122.216.158]] ([[User talk:209.122.216.158|talk]]) 03:38, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Tony Fernández

2022-06-30T01:37:32Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date Of Death again */ Reply

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==Untitled==
I know he probably won't make it, but has Fernandez appeared on any Hall of Fame ballots? Or isn't he eligible yet?[[User:The Invisible Man|The Invisible Man]] 21:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
:He was on four ballots in 2007. [[User:Wizardman|'''''Wizardman''''']] [[User:Wizardman/Operation Big Bear|Operation Big Bear]] 18:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

== Date of Death ==

His death was reported on the Saturday night of February 15, 2020, which was the day he died. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.237.64.88|207.237.64.88]] ([[User talk:207.237.64.88#top|talk]]) 13:10, 17 February 2020 (UTC) 

== Day Of Death II ==

He died on Saturday February 15, 2020 reports started coming in around 10:30 PM that day. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.237.64.88|207.237.64.88]] ([[User talk:207.237.64.88#top|talk]]) 03:25, 19 February 2020 (UTC) 

== Date Of Death again ==

He died on February 15, 2020 in Florida these reports that say that he died on Sunday is completely wrong
so please rectify this error. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.237.64.88|207.237.64.88]] ([[User talk:207.237.64.88#top|talk]]) 17:04, 21 February 2020 (UTC) 

:It was on February 15,2020 it was on a Saturday. [[Special:Contributions/209.122.216.158|209.122.216.158]] ([[User talk:209.122.216.158|talk]]) 01:37, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Hugh McElhenny

2022-06-23T19:56:25Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

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== Of possible use for expanding this ==

David Eskenazi, [http://sportspressnw.com/2011/03/wayback-machine-hugh-mcelhenny-the-Seattle-kings/ Wayback Machine: Hugh McElhenny & the Kings], Sportspress Northwest, March 22, 2011.

{{Talk:Hugh McElhenny/GA1}}

== 1952 NFL Rookie of the Year ==

He currently isn't displayed on [[National Football League Rookie of the Year Award]]. Facts don't seem to be in dispute, but I couldn't tie this to a selector (UPI, Sporting News, etc).
Potential supporting cites:
* http://sportspressnw.com/2196330/2015/wayback-machine-star-of-years-best-alums
* http://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/football-cards/1962-topps/hugh-mcelhenny-92/7993
* http://articles.latimes.com/1985-01-20/sports/sp-10560_1_hugh-mcelhenny (also has a neat Super Bowl coin toss story with Pres Reagan)

Some have referred to it as a unanimous selection, but that article doesn't have 1952 support at the moment. [[User:UW Dawgs|UW Dawgs]] ([[User talk:UW Dawgs|talk]]) 18:43, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
:I just asked Cbl62 if he could find anything. I was always under the impression that the UPI and Sporting News were the first to give ROTY awards, in 1955. [[User:Lizard the Wizard|Lizard]] ([[User talk:Lizard the Wizard|talk]]) 18:49, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
:Also, trading cards are usually terrible sources. For example, McElhenny and Perry never played together at Compton University. That's a misconception that was also [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joe_Perry_(American_football)&oldid=738558544 in Perry's article]. [[User:Lizard the Wizard|Lizard]] ([[User talk:Lizard the Wizard|talk]]) 18:58, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
:: Agreed, included as directional support for the general research issue. [[User:UW Dawgs|UW Dawgs]] ([[User talk:UW Dawgs|talk]]) 19:03, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

== Date of Death ==

He died on June 17th according to ESPN

Talk:Jaylon Ferguson

2022-06-23T04:42:51Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

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{{ITN note|Jaylon Ferguson|date=22 June 2022}}

== Date of Death ==

He was found unresponsive at 11:25 PM on June 21, 2022 and was confirmed dead on the scene

Talk:Jack Nicholson

2022-05-30T13:48:54Z

209.122.216.158: /* Oscars */ new section

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== Retirement ==

Jack Nicholson hasn’t officially announced it, so he’s not retired! [[Special:Contributions/67.140.78.0|67.140.78.0]] ([[User talk:67.140.78.0|talk]]) 01:10, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

== Oscars ==

Gene Hackman is also another actor to win multiple Oscars in Best Picture winning films.

Talk:Bo Hopkins

2022-05-29T10:48:24Z

209.122.216.158: /* Age */ new section

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== More information! ==

Is it just me? I believe Bo Hopkins warrants a far fleshier article about his career and life than this!--[[User:MarioSmario|MarioSmario]] ([[User talk:MarioSmario|talk]]) 19:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
:I added a "Personal life" section with sourced info to start things off. Will add more to it. Have to go back and read the interview he gave in ''Shock Cinema'' number 42, on newsstands as I write this. [[User:5Q5|5Q5]] ([[User talk:5Q5|talk]]) 15:23, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

::{{done}}. For my part anyway. Keep an eye out for new material. 17:38, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

== Age ==

The Hollywood Reporter is the only source that says he is 84, he was 80 years old according to the other sources.

Talk:Louis Gossett Jr.

2022-05-28T16:13:20Z

209.122.216.158: /* Age */ new section

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==Christianity?==
Is he a Christian? Cause he played as President Gerald Fitzhugh in ''[[Left Behind: World at War]]''. -[[User:Yancyfry jr|Yancyfry]]
:Like how he's an alien "cause" he played one, right, genius? -- [[User:71.102.194.130|71.102.194.130]] 05:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
:No. Like how most of the actors/actresses in the Left Behind movies are Christian, guh! -[[User:Yancyfry jr|Yancyfry]] 00:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

== Incomplete filmography ==
There is no mention of his role the 1990 film "El Diablo." [[User:Feral Mind|Feral Mind]] ([[User talk:Feral Mind|talk]]) 07:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
:It is listed in his television credits because it is a [[Television movie|TV-Movie]]. [[User:IndulgentReader|IndulgentReader]] ([[User talk:IndulgentReader|talk]]) 16:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

== Basketball exploits (or lack of) ==

[http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_draft_history/1959.html#1957] shows the NBA drafts of the 1950s and Gossett's not listed. Likewise [http://www.basketball-reference.com/player_search.cgi?search=gossett] shows that he never played for the Knicks and [http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/] that he never on a Knick roster. As for whether he played or not for the NYU Violets, I couldn t find anything with an online google search either to confirm or deny the claim [[User:Mayumashu|Mayumashu]] ([[User talk:Mayumashu|talk]]) 02:05, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Filmography order ==

I noticed that the order of his film and television appearances are reversed, with film going from earliest to latest, while television goes from latest to earliest. Is there any particular reason for this, or should one of them be switched to match? And given the latter option, which one? -- [[User:Mpdimitroff|Mpdimitroff]] ([[User talk:Mpdimitroff|talk]]) 12:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
:Maybe somebody should combine both lists and make it sortable [[User:Lars T.|Lars T.]] ([[User talk:Lars T.|talk]]) 23:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
::{{Done}} [[User:Astronaut|Astronaut]] ([[User talk:Astronaut|talk]]) 16:00, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

== Louis Gossett, Jr. is an actor, not a basketball player. ==

While he clearly has played basketball, a review of his entire output that categorizes him as an "American basketball player" is clearly nonsensical. He is almost solely known for, and makes his living by, acting.

I would love some help with making this change, thank you! I cannot figure out how to edit someone's broad category descriptor within Wikipedia.

Thanks all.

- Josh — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JoshHyman2|JoshHyman2]] ([[User talk:JoshHyman2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JoshHyman2|contribs]]) 08:56, 1 May 2016 (UTC) 

== External links modified ==

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== Age ==

He is now 86 years old.

Talk:David Birney

2022-05-06T20:23:33Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ Reply

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{{ITN note|David Birney|date=3 May 2022}}

==Full resume!==
OK, all the stuff recently put onto this page from user "Birney2" appears like it's just cut and pasted from a resume of some sort. We really don't need these level of in-depth lists here, do we? [[User:Otto1970|Otto1970]] 06:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
:Ah! I missed this line: ''Note: Information provided by David Birney and his representatives.'' Please see [[WP:AB]] and that autobiographies are strongly discouraged. Also, see [[WP:COI]] regarding conflicts of interest and writing on behalf of somebody. [[User:Otto1970|Otto1970]] 06:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

==WikiProject class rating==
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. [[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 15:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

== Date of Death ==

He died on April 27, 2022, not on April 29. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/209.122.216.158|209.122.216.158]] ([[User talk:209.122.216.158#top|talk]]) 18:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC) 

:That was misstated about the date of death, it was really on Wednesday April 27, 2022. [[Special:Contributions/209.122.216.158|209.122.216.158]] ([[User talk:209.122.216.158|talk]]) 20:23, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Talk:David Birney

2022-05-06T18:57:03Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

Talk:A Woman Under the Influence

2022-04-13T20:34:24Z

209.122.216.158: /* Plot */ new section

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== External links modified ==

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== To those... ==

...who ask "Why should I see this film?," I'd respond: "It will give you a chance to see Peter Falk playing someone other than Columbo!" — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2603:300B:703:A00:B450:982D:85E2:8E06|2603:300B:703:A00:B450:982D:85E2:8E06]] ([[User talk:2603:300B:703:A00:B450:982D:85E2:8E06#top|talk]]) 23:54, 8 December 2016 (UTC) 

== Plot ==

In the beginning of the film Mabel Longhetti sent her children to her mother's house.

Talk:Rae Allen

2022-04-09T05:12:52Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Birth */ new section

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== Date of Birth ==

Some sources say that her birthdate was on July 3, 1926

Talk:Estelle Harris

2022-04-06T14:50:59Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Birth */ new section

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{{ITN note|Estelle Harris|date=3 April 2022}}

==Year of birth==
Please do not change year of birth from 1928 back to 1932 based on [http://www.filmreference.com/film/33/Estelle-Harris.html Film Reference]. This reference is incorrect and clearly inferior to the following sources which confirm Harris' true year of birth:
* [[Intelius]] search by name (Estelle Harris, California), giving her age as of today as 81, not 77
* Born in 1928 as per the [http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&gsfn=Estelle&gsln=Nussbaum&=&_82004042__gpid=35&_82004043=New%20York&_82004044=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&db=&ti=0&ti.si=0&gl=USFedCen&gss=&gst=&so=3 1930 United States census], the daughter of Anna and Isaac Nussbaum.

The last time the year of birth was changed back it was done by the now indefinitely-banned vandal ([[User:SelenaMusic14]]). Please contact me if you have further questions; the page is on my watchlist. Thanks for your attention. [[User:Rms125a@hotmail.com|Rms125a@hotmail.com]] ([[User talk:Rms125a@hotmail.com|talk]]) 23:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

==I Knew Her==
Harris was my grandmother's neighbor from the 50s-70s. Harris's mother and father in law died around the same time in 1965 and Harris's father died in 1967 and Harris's mother-in-law died in the late 1970s. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:SexyShugar|SexyShugar]] ([[User talk:SexyShugar|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SexyShugar|contribs]]) 04:04, 19 June 2010 (UTC) 

==Tag==
Would it be okay if I remove the verification tag, now that there are more added sources? -- [[Special:Contributions/98.180.174.83|98.180.174.83]] ([[User talk:98.180.174.83|talk]]) 10:13, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

==Cancer Battle==
Daily Mail claimed Estelle Harris successfully fought cancer back in 2013. Should we add it? -- [[Special:Contributions/98.180.168.255|98.180.168.255]] ([[User talk:98.180.168.255|talk]]) 10:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
:Hi IP, you will need a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] for that claim. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 13:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

==Birthday==

What day was Estelle Harris actually born? Some sources, like Deadline, say April 22. Others, like New York Times, say April 4. There are more question marks than exclamation marks regarding her birth…

https://deadline.com/2022/04/estelle-harris-dead-seinfelds-estelle-costanza-was-93-1234993091/amp/

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/03/obituaries/estelle-harris-dead.html
[[Special:Contributions/78.79.242.107|78.79.242.107]] ([[User talk:78.79.242.107|talk]]) 16:20, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

: Both of those sources say April 22. [[User:Paul Erik|Paul Erik]] [[User_talk:Paul Erik|(talk)]][[Special:Contributions/Paul Erik|(contribs)]] 16:46, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
: The Associated Press [https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/estelle-harris-seinfeld-toy-story-actor-dies-93-83840514 also says April 22]. [[User:Paul Erik|Paul Erik]] [[User_talk:Paul Erik|(talk)]][[Special:Contributions/Paul Erik|(contribs)]] 16:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
::So it's settled then [[User:CreecregofLife|CreecregofLife]] ([[User talk:CreecregofLife|talk]]) 16:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
:::Forbes said her birthday was April 4, 1928 that she died "two days before her birthday" https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcberman1/2022/04/02/seinfeld-star-and-toy-story-voice-actress-estelle-harris-dies-at-93/?sh=23b18333a7f6 [[User:CountingStars500|CountingStars500]] ([[User talk:CountingStars500|talk]]) 11:39, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:::: There was a discrepancy among sources at first, but soon there was a preponderance of sources saying April 22. That the ''New York Times'' originally said April 4 but then changed it to April 22 is fairly strong evidence that the latter is correct. [[User:Paul Erik|Paul Erik]] [[User_talk:Paul Erik|(talk)]][[Special:Contributions/Paul Erik|(contribs)]] 22:48, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

== Date of Birth ==

Was her birthday on April 4 or April 22, these sources seem to say one or the other

Talk:Conrad Janis

2022-03-09T21:22:31Z

209.122.216.158: /* Cause of Death */ new section

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{{ITN note|Conrad Janis|date=9 March 2022}}

==untitled==
I've removed all references to Byron Janis as there was conflicting statements saying Conrad was/was not his brother. [[User:64.241.242.18|64.241.242.18]] 23:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

As they were born only a few weeks apart, they couldn't have been brothers. As Conrad Janis was younger-looking than his chronological age, I'd always wondered if he was [[Byron Janis]]'s son. But they aren't related. [[User:WilliamSommerwerck|WilliamSommerwerck]] ([[User talk:WilliamSommerwerck|talk]]) 15:59, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

==age==
"In 1949, as an 18-year-old..." He would have been 20 or 21. [[User:WilliamSommerwerck|WilliamSommerwerck]] ([[User talk:WilliamSommerwerck|talk]]) 02:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

== Cause of Death ==

He died from organ failure according to the Hollywood Reporter.

Talk:Alan Ladd Jr.

2022-03-02T20:49:34Z

209.122.216.158: /* Oscars */ new section

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== Oscars ==

Gone Baby Gone did not win any Oscars.

Talk:Spencer (film)

2022-02-28T16:51:46Z

209.122.216.158: /* Golden Globe */ new section

{{Old AfD multi |date=16 May 2021 |result='''keep''' |page=Spencer (film)}}
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{{Annual readership}}

== Princess Diana? ==

There is and was never such a person known as Princess Diana. There was however a person known as HRH The Princess of Wales or Diana, Princess of Wales. Could you please change it. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/105.112.113.186|105.112.113.186]] ([[User talk:105.112.113.186|talk]]) 13:05, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
: I get what you're saying and I seriously considered rephrasing based on your suggestion (particularly the lead section) but I don't think it would be an improvement. The article repeatedly talks about Prince Charles and Princess Diana, using a more formal wording would need to be done for both it would just be awkward. Even if "Princess Diana" is not the strictly correct title to use, this looks like the guideline [[WP:COMMONNAME]] applies, ironically enough. -- [[Special:Contributions/109.79.68.165|109.79.68.165]] ([[User talk:109.79.68.165|talk]]) 19:51, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

== Golden Globe ==

Spencer did not get any Golden Globe nominations.

Talk:Howard Hesseman

2022-01-31T16:58:03Z

209.122.216.158: /* Years of Marriage */ new section

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== Don Sturdy? ==

The article mentions that Hesseman worked under the name "Don Sturdy". In the commentary on the recent ''WKRP'' DVDs, Hugh Wilson says the name he used was "Donm Stroud". I'm not sure which is correct, but for what it's worth, there is a person in Austin, TX of some local renown who uses the name "Bongo Don Stroud" [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0835145/ (IMDB entry)]. -- [[User:Gyrofrog|Gyrofrog ]] [[User_talk:Gyrofrog|(talk)]] 19:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

One of Hesseman's earliest appearances, while still affiliated with The Committee, was in his role as the hippie drama teacher in 1971's [[Billy Jack]]. He is credited there as Don Sturdy. [[User:Tlibson|Lyn]] ([[User talk:Tlibson|talk]]) 03:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC) 03:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC) 

According to Radio Waves (book by Jim Ladd) HH also went by Don Sturdy during his stint as a DJ.
[[User:DFS|DFS]] ([[User talk:DFS|talk]]) 11:13, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Changed the spelling of his "Dragnet" character's name from "Chaplain" to "Chaplin". Edit summary indicates the source was the end credits of Season 2, Episode 1, but it was actually Season 3, Episode 1. [[User:Skeetin|Skeetin]] ([[User talk:Skeetin|talk]]) 08:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

== Additional TV credit ==

Appeared as "Craig Pleger," one of the members of Dr. Bob Hartley's new unemployment group (jobless people providing each other support) in the 1974 episode "The Jobless Corps" of "The Bob Newhart Show."[[User:Maccb|Maccb]] ([[User talk:Maccb|talk]]) 02:55, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

== Years of Marriage ==

he married Caroline on July 22, 1989, so that was 32 and a half years.

Talk:Yvette Mimieux

2022-01-19T13:19:43Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

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== [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment ==
The article may be improved by following the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography#WikiProject_Biography_11_easy_steps_to_producing_at_least_a_B_article|WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps]] to producing at least a B article. -- [[User:Jreferee|Jreferee]] 20:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

== How is her last name pronounced? ==

I've heard it pronounced two different ways.[[Special:Contributions/209.179.36.25|209.179.36.25]] ([[User talk:209.179.36.25|talk]]) 20:14, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

== Her first marriage? ==

Why is her first marriage to Evan Engber mentioned down under "Personal Life" ("She married in 1959 to Evan Engber. [27]") but not listed in the info box in the upper right? [[Special:Contributions/71.204.24.132|71.204.24.132]] ([[User talk:71.204.24.132|talk]]) 17:44, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

== Date of Death ==

She died on the morning of January 18, 2022 as most sources have indicated.

Talk:George Chakiris

2022-01-08T14:18:15Z

209.122.216.158: /* Oldest Best Supporting Actor Winner */ new section

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==Untitled==
According to Notable Names Database, Chakiris is gay. May Wikipedia address/admit that?
:Absolutely only if reliably sourced. If NNDB is anything like the Internet Movie database, it is not reliable.--[[User:Stetsonharry|Stetsonharry]] ([[User talk:Stetsonharry|talk]]) 02:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
::I found a source for this. [http://www.edgenewyork.com/index.php?ch=entertainment&sc=theatre&sc3=&id=115582&pg=1 "Now at the age of 76, the out actor sat down with EDGE to talk appearing in musicals during the closeted 1950s."] [[Special:Contributions/72.152.136.241|72.152.136.241]] ([[User talk:72.152.136.241|talk]]) 20:41, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
:::I thought people knew already. [[User:Apple8800|Apple8800]] ([[User talk:Apple8800|talk]]) 14:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

:::: Who is "people"? Only those who'd read this somewhere they considered reliable, or been told by someone they trusted, would know. -- [[User:JackofOz|Jack of Oz]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|[Talk]]] 06:38, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
:::::The source linked for the "openly gay" mentions nothing what-so-ever about his sexual orientation. Whether it's true or not, that source does not support the assertion. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.5.5.111|74.5.5.111]] ([[User talk:74.5.5.111|talk]]) 04:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC) 

:::::: We still have nothing in the article to support these categories, so I've boldly removed them. -- [[User:JackofOz|Jack of Oz]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|[Talk]]] 03:44, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

::::::* I noticed that that Chakiris is in ''Category:Gay Actors'', despite there still being no mention of this within the article and no source to support it. I have removed him from that category. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:EA01:1090:A4B5:1120:6EE4:DFD4|2600:1700:EA01:1090:A4B5:1120:6EE4:DFD4]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:EA01:1090:A4B5:1120:6EE4:DFD4#top|talk]]) 11:21, 18 August 2018 (UTC) 

:::::::Chakiris and Richard Beymer are both gay. ([[Special:Contributions/109.156.191.82|109.156.191.82]] ([[User talk:109.156.191.82|talk]]) 19:14, 2 December 2018 (UTC))

== Oldest Best Supporting Actor Winner ==

Sidney Poiter was never nominated for a Best Supporting Actor Oscar.

Talk:Jean-Marc Vallée

2021-12-27T14:16:02Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

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== External links modified ==

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== Date of Death ==

He died on December 26, 2021 .

Talk:Stephen Sondheim

2021-11-26T23:01:12Z

209.122.216.158: /* Knives Out */ new section

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{{WikiProject Biography|musician-work-group=yes|musician-priority=high|living=no|class=B|listas=Sondheim, Stephen}}
{{WikiProject Musical Theatre|class=B|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject LGBT studies|class=B|person=yes}}
{{WikiProject New York City|class=B|importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Theatre|class=B|importance=high}}
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{{GOCE|user=Miniapolis|date=May 18, 2015}}

==Opera houses==
"Sweeney Todd (1979), Sondheim's most operatic score (and his only show to find a definite foothold in opera houses)..."
Didn't A Little Night Music play at NYCO? —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.172.255.41|71.172.255.41]] ([[User talk:71.172.255.41|talk]]) 00:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC) 

¿Is he panning to do a new musical?

==Classy but==
Good work but needs fantastic much touching up as readability is extremely low.

I found it a bit confusing that some of his works are in the text while others are in the list below. Should this get unified? [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] 03:07 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)
:Made works list unified. This may be redundant, but I think the complete works list is beneficial. Minor works will be blurbed on the main page and not linked, I think. [[User:Dreamword|Dreamword]] 00:07 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)

The Lloyd Webber bit is a bit misplaced. They are entirely different artists. Sondheim hasn't been commercially successful but don't think the Webber reference really gets to that point in a pithy way.

==Homosexuality never stated==
Could someone please reinsert a section on Sonheim being homosexual, preferably with a source? He's listed in categories of gay musicians, LGBQ public figures, ectera - but it is NEVER mentioned in this version of the article. Thanks.
[[User:Zakolantern|Zakolantern]] 01:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
:Maybe everyone thinks it's obvious.
::I know typically we're not supposed to edit other user comments but- well, come on. [[User:ChrisStansfield|ChrisStansfield]] 10:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, it's ludicrous this is never mentioned; it smacks of homophobia that such a central part of the man and his life is missing. [[User:Vauxhall1964|Vauxhall1964]] ([[User talk:Vauxhall1964|talk]]) 19:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed - I just found out Bob Fosse was straight (surprise) by reading the article and having details of his personal life mentioned. The omission of any personal details (relationships, etc.) after adolescence is silly in this case. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.248.55.112|98.248.55.112]] ([[User talk:98.248.55.112|talk]]) 05:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 

I agree, there definitely needs to be a mention of this in the body of the article with a reliable source cited, ''especially'' if we're going to be including him in LGBT categories. Anyone have a reference handy? —[[User:MearsMan|'''''MearsMan''''']] [[User talk:MearsMan|''talk'']] 03:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

::See the Personal life section I added today, used direct quotes to avoid any problems with original research/opinion, etc; I think this is well-documented.[[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] ([[User talk:JeanColumbia|talk]]) 14:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

== Bump on his head==

What's with the bump on his head? It's pretty pronounced and I've done lots of searching and have found no answer except to find I'm not the only one to wonder.--[[User:Jhlynes|Jhlynes]] 23:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

== Homosexuality ==

Is it really relevant to mention a highly questionnable hypothesis on the cause (if any could be found) of his homosexuality ??

No, it would be discrimination. I mean, you don't put a hypothesis of Francis Ford Coppola, or any other, for beign straight

[[User:Intones]]

.

== Sotto voce? ==

I think that's really odd phrasing for one's sexuality. Any suggestions to change that? [[User:IvanP|IvanP]] 14:35, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

== Directors on list of major works ==

I really think the list of major works should include the director. Harold Prince made a HUGE contribution to the shaping of those shows. Anyone object if I add it?

:Directors of musicals are usually an integral part of the authorship team. Please do add directors to the list. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 07:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I've now added directors for most of these myself. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 19:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

==Picture==

Definately needed in my opinion [[User:MikeyB!|MikeyB!]] 19:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

== Foxy ==

Is it necessary to go into such detail about Foxy's alleged "sexually predatory" behaviour towards her son?

Yes, it was a mjor factor in the shape of Sondheim's life. She was one of the major reasons he ended up spending so much time with Hammerstein.
-Luke Callahan

== "Losing My Mind" ==

Did Liza Minelli's version of "Losing My Mind" ever hit the top 40 in the United States or Europe? I think it might have, which would mean that "Send In The Clowns" wouldn't be his only Top 40 hit. Can anyone verify that? [[User:ChrisLK|ChrisLK]] 23:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

: According to [[Liza Minelli#Hit Singles]] it reached #6 in UK in 1989 and #11 in US Dance charts [[User:Sgfoote|footie]] 20:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

:: Thanks! I think I'll change the "Send in the Clowns" thing then. [[User:ChrisLK|ChrisLK]] 20:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

:::I realize this is an old discussion, but many of the songs for Madonna for ''[[Dick Tracy (film)|Dick Tracy]]'' did quite well.... —  [[User:MusicMaker5376|Music]][[User Talk:MusicMaker5376|Maker]] 17:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

== Harmonic style ==

I have never heard someone's harmony described as being "angular" the way it is here: "He also displays a penchant for angular harmonies and intricate melodies..." Lush, dense, complex, open, etc., but how can harmony be angular? Is there a better word to use? [[User:Wspencer11|Wspencer11]] 17:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

:The passage currently reads "''He also displays a penchant for angular harmonies and intricate melodies reminiscent of Bach''....".

:Not only do I not know what an "angular [harmony]" is, I also don't see how Sondheim's melodies are "reminiscent of Bach" (or of Bach's melodies, for that matter). I suspect that the writer doesn't either, and that this is merely blowing smoke. (Actually, I think "intricate" would work better to describe Sondheim's harmonies than to describe his melodies.) [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 09:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

That whole section is typically pretentious - in a sophomoric way - of the entire article. Yea, of almost everything at Wikipedia where experts fear to tread and only fools contribute.

==NPOV and fact tags==
I did a little bit of work on this article; there are many unsourced quotes and statements that need sources. I also tried to work on the POV stuff, if anyone else wants to take a crack at it, feel free. It's a very detailed biographical study, and someone (or several people) obviously took great time and care in writing it, some of the language just needs to be toned down. [[User:Ckessler|Ckessler]] 03:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

:The unsourced statements are definitely all from Meryl Secrest's biography of him from about 10 years ago.

==""Sond" means sound, or body of water"==
"Sond" is not a German word.

Yes it is, halfwit.

== "We don't know if this is really true," etc. ==

Don't these count as "weasel words?"

=== Some random cites ===
stuff about his mom being a bitch. She said her only regret in life was giving birth to him.
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0786412690&id=BfWyQ39xk0wC&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&ots=nqequ0AxI0&dq=%22Stephen+Sondheim%22+biography&sig=GCsJh0C2fH3KsSbRM2NPwvmbl7o#PPA109,M1

== Personal life beyond childhood ==

It seems that fears about controversy have really done damage to this entry- there is virtually nothing regarding Sondheim's personal life beyond childhood, and even the details of his childhood are lacking. The facts of Sondheim's relationship with his mother may be disquieting, but they are well-referenced and confirmed by Sondheim himself, so there's hardly a worry about libel. Considering the fact that the most common criticism of Sondheim's output during the 70's and 80's was "coldness," I think his troubled childhood has real relevance to the article. What about his relationship with Mary Rodgers, which both have described as a major turning point in their lives? Or the fact that even though the two were close, Sondheim and Richard Rodgers couldn't stand each other? The complete skirting of the fact of Sondheim's open homosexuality is also more than odd. Sondheim gave a pretty open and revealing interview to the New York Times Magazine a few years ago and there have been other articles that spoke at some length of his long-term relationship with a younger composer (whose name escapes me at the moment.) They were together several years- if Sondheim were heterosexual and had married a long-term lover, especially one of note herself, that would be considered important and appropriate in a biographical entry. It should be considered appropriate in this case, too.

I'd put all of this stuff back in myself, but looking over the history and the talk pages, I feel it would br promptly removed. Could somebody explain why? This deserves real discussion!
[[User:ChrisStansfield|ChrisStansfield]] 06:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

:A wikipedia biographical article should concern itself chiefly with the subject's professional career, and it should be pithy. In particular it should refrain from psychological analysis of the subject, whether or not that analysis may be grounds for "libel". Sondheim's friendship with Mary Rodgers and difficult relationship with Richard Rodgers are fairly trivial matters. Yes, they do come up in ''book-length'' biographies (''Sondheim & Company'', etc.), but even there they are typically dealt with only very briefly.

:Good christ I can't believe I just read that. So in other words there's your torpedo - there's the person who promises to revert anything you contribute. 'Wikipedia - history in the making. Over and over and over again.'

:Re: "''and there have been other articles that spoke at some length of his long-term relationship with a younger composer (whose name escapes me at the moment.) They were together several years- if Sondheim were heterosexual and had married a long-term lover, especially one of note herself, that would be considered important and appropriate in a biographical entry.''":

:If the "younger composer" is the one I'm thinking of (mentioned toward the end of Secrest's book), he wasn't with Sondheim very long, and he wasn't especially a person "of note" in his own right (which is why I can't remember his name either). I think you'll find that most wikipedia biographical articles don't mention spouses at all (certainly none of those I've chiefly authored have), even when the marriages in question have lasted many decades, and judging by Secrest's book Sondheim doesn't appear to have had any really long-term romantic relationships. He lives alone (except for his cook), and appears to have lived alone most of his life. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 10:09, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

:With no mention of Mr. Sondheim's personal life as an adult, especially of a romantic/dating/sexual (pick your word) life, this article is guilty of turning him into a metaphorical eunuch, so often done to gay men previously, less so today. It reminds me of how famous gay men, especially Hollywood actors, were treated and reported on in the 50s: girlfriends/wives were arranged, male love interests were never mentioned or referred to as friends, etc. This omission in the current article is retrograde. [[User:Savacek|Savacek]] ([[User talk:Savacek|talk]]) 17:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

== Only child? ==

Speaking of lack-of-detail in the childhood section, he is not an only child, he has a brother named Walt.

:: Just to clarify the family situation. Sondheim's father, Herbert, and Alicia Babe had two sons, Herbert Sondheim, Jr, (born in Autumn 1943) and Walter Sondheim (born in Feb. 1946). Herbert Sr. and Alicia were married in a registry office in Stamford, Connecticut, in 1943, having obtained a Mexican divorce earlier. There was a legal separation between Herbert Sr and Foxy (Sondheim's mother) in autumn 1941, and a New York divorce was obtained in 1946. This rather long-winded account is just to set the stage for this: Herbert Jr. and Walter are Stephen Sondheim's HALF brothers. (reference: ''Stephen Sondheim, A Life'', Meryle Secrest, 1998, {{ISBN|0-385-33412-5}}, pages 28-30).[[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] 19:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: "''Herbert Sr. and Alicia were married in a registry office in Stamford, Connecticut, in 1943, having obtained a Mexican divorce earlier.''":

That sounds like ''Merrily We Roll Along'': backward. I take it you mean, "''Herbert, Sr'' having obtained a Mexican divorce from Foxy earlier''". [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 10:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

::: I looked up some relevant portions in the book via Amazon's 'search inside,' and it indicates that Stephen and the younger kids lived in the same house for several years after Stephen moved in with his father. I was not assaulting the family tree with my original question of only-child-hood, just pointing out that I didn't think the statement in the article was accurate. I personally do not think that children with half-siblings can accurately be described as "only children" ... don't half siblings count as children? Is there another word; can you be a half-only-child? Sure, he was the only child for the first few years, but that's always true until the second child is born. The sentence in question seems to be from the book review at amazon.com, anyway, rather than a direct source (like the book). I propose changing it to reflect the family situation. Again, I'm not taking issue with your distinction about the parentage of the younger two, just saying that the description "an only child" doesn't fit -- not by the definition provided at the linked-to page on "only child." —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.197.31.27|74.197.31.27]] ([[User talk:74.197.31.27|talk]]) 16:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC) 

In reading the Conversations with Sondheim Frank Rich had with Sondheim, he was quoted saying he was an only child. Shouldn't we base his sibling status on what Sondheim said? He might of had half siblings but was maybe not close with them, or didn't consider them to be family?
"I was an only child. I was the youngest and got the best marks in the class -- I won't say the smartest. Right away that means some people love you and some people hate you."

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000312mag-sondheim.html — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/152.23.57.82|152.23.57.82]] ([[User talk:152.23.57.82|talk]]) 17:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 

== Only listens to Bach? ==

The part in the Maturity section about Sondheim saying he only listens to Bach really needs a citation. Especially since Sondheim donated his record collection of over 13,000 recordings to the Library of Congress and they were not all Bach.--[[User:Timmyk0385|Timmyk0385]] 16:40, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I heard Sondheim speak today (6 July 2007) in Sydney and he seemed bemused by the suggestion that Bach was his favourite composer. He expressed a preference for composers from Brahms to Stravinsky, including Ravel and Racmaninoff. [[User:125.255.8.224|125.255.8.224]] 15:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)QP

:Besides, his Desert Island collection (of recordings, in response to a question from a BBC Radio interviewer) was topped, not by a performance of a Bach work, but by a recording of [[Porgy and Bess]]- unsurprising, considering his fairly well-known (I think) admiration/enjoyment/... for [[George Gershwin]]'s music in general and Porgy and Bess in particular. (It would surprise me if his listening background weren't quite wide, in any case. There's a fair amount more that's tip-of-the-hat-ish-to-Mozart- mostly in subtle, clever ways, if you ask me, but true all the same...- about [[A Little Night Music]] than just the title, for instance!) [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] | [[User_talk:Schissel|Sound the Note!]] 02:56, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

==Trivia section==

I have removed the Trivia section - please see [[WP:BLP]] for Trivia sections and living persons. --[[User:Ozgod|Ozgod]] 04:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:I have temporarily reverted the edit. According to WP:BLP: "Biographies of living persons should not have trivia sections. '''Instead, relevant sourced claims should be woven into the article.'''" (Emphasis mine.) According to [[Trivia Section]]: ...Trivia sections are considered by some contributors to be a poor method of laying out an entry and believe that the information would better be presented in the body of the article instead of within a separate section...
:'''There is no official ruling on trivia sections. It is a matter of style of presentation that is up for debate by wiki contributors'''. (Emphasis mine). I agree with you that a trivia section in this case is poor style, but rather than simply delete it, I feel that, as per recommendations, the relevant info (of which there is some) should be incorporated into the main article. If you can't be bothered to do so, than at least leave it alone for a couple of days until I or someone else can set aside the time necessary to do so. [[User:ChrisStansfield|ChrisStansfield]] 18:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The only entry here I can see being reasonably worked into the article proper is the reference to the "Theatre Arts" school. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 10:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

:I've now "removed" the others. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 10:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Now I've gone further and removed the last remaining bit of trivia and with it the section heading (since there's nothing left). I really did try to incorporate it in the article, but after investigation it appeared to me not worthy. It would be different maybe if Sondheim were on the faculty, but he seems to be only nominally connected with the organization. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 19:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== Opening sentence - weasel words? ==

Sondheim is '''widely seen as his generation's leading writer''' of the stage musical...

Wouldn't it be more encyclopedic to open it with something like "Sondheim is an American composer?"

Thoughts? [[User:Springreturning|Springreturning]] 20:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

:: I agree with the comments of Springreturning, and rearranged the opening to be less POV and to omit the "weasel" words. [[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] 23:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

== Expansion ==

I have expanded some sections a little bit - adding the "work away from Broadway" section, for example, which I think could stand expansion itself. I would really like to add a section on his later personal life, since that bit ends pretty much when he's 16. I have Secrest's biography as a source, and all I want to see is a couple of paragraphs, just to round the article out. I see this was a bone of contention before, so I'll wait on it in case somebody objects.

Also, I am noticing a really adoring tone in a lot of the prose of the article which isn't really appropriate for an encyclopedia; there's also a lot of show jargon ("concept musical" and the like) that I'm trying to either define or eliminate.
-[[User:67.85.180.72|67.85.180.72]] 14:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

==Numbers==
From the Manual of Style: "In the body of an article, single-digit whole numbers (from zero to nine) are spelled out; numbers of more than one digit are generally rendered as digits, but may be spelled out if they are expressed in one or two words (sixteen, eighty-four, two hundred, but 3.75, 544, 21 million)." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Numbers]
::I have therefore changed the "numbers of more than one digit" to comply with the prescribed MOS. [[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] 10:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no way in hell ''ten'' should not be spelled out except within an arithmetic problem or an accounting spreadsheet. ''Nineteen'' could conceivably rendered as a numeral but generally should not be. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 10:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
::I concede to your obviously rather ''emotional'' argument, which seems to mean a great deal to you. You certainly may override the MOS-it's not set in ''stone'', anyway, and I am not the style police. The world is certainly full enough of ''shoulds''. Have a nice day. [[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] 11:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

As you quote it, it may be written with odd emphasis. The ''point'' of these sorts of stipulations is that the smaller numbers should be spelled out, not that the larger numbers should necessarily be rendered as numerals. (There is no precise cut-off point.) It seems to me you're looking at this backward, and the unfortunate wording of the quote may have helped to give you the wrong impression. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 11:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

:At risk of belaboring the point, here, for perspective, are some citations:

:Donald Hall, ''Writing Well'', p.299:

:"''Print out the figures except when they are long to the point of being ridiculous. If you can write that a town has 'one hundred and four thousand inhabitants,' write it. If necessity requires precision, '104,627' will do, and 'one hundred and four thousand, six hundred and twenty-seven' might be precious.''"

:Margaret Shertzer, ''The Elements of Grammar'', p. 125:

:"''Spell out numbers from one through ten, except in a series of related numbers. In formal writing, numbers that can be expressed in one or two words are spelled out, but figures may be used in letters or reports.''"

:Hodges and Whitten, ''Harbrace College Handbook'', p. 100:

:"''Although usage varies, writers tend to spell out numbers that can be expressed in one word or two; they regularly use figures for other numbers.''"

:I submit that since wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, it needs to use formal prose, and thus the rule should not be worded such that it implies that spelling out one-word or two-word numbers greater than nine is an exceptional practice. [[User:TheScotch|TheScotch]] 05:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

== Enchanted? ==

I was watching the Academy Awards and heard that he did work for the 2007 movie "enchanted". Can anyone back up this claim or am I going senile at only 14 years? Thanks, [[User:Lazylaces|Lazylaces]] ([[User_Talk:Lazylaces|Talk to me]] 01:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

:Perhaps you're thinking of [[Stephen Schwartz (composer)|Stephen Schwartz]]? [[User:Ajd|AJD]] ([[User talk:Ajd|talk]]) 02:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

==1993 Great Performances broadcast of Carnegie Hall concert==
I was surprised to see that their is no mention of ''Sondheim - A Celebration at Carnegie Hall'' on this page. It was released on DVD and CD as well as being aired on PBS on ''[[Great Performances]]'' and had a lot of great performers involved.[[User:Nrswanson|Nrswanson]] ([[User talk:Nrswanson|talk]]) 19:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

==Opera question==
An editor revised the headings of the works section to show (among other edits) that ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''A Little Night Music'' are Opera. I reverted these changes because I do not believe that it has been established that they are operas. I believe that any such classification should be discussed on the talk page and, per good Wikipedia practice, referenced so as not to be original research (see [[WP:OR]]). Here is one reference for Sweeney Todd: "He [Sondheim} considers ''Sweeney Todd:The Demon Barber of Fleet Street'', which opened on Broadway in 1979, a musical, not an opera." Source:[[http://books.google.com/books?id=uKk-5x3L4ioC&pg=PA202&dq=Sondheim+%22Sweeney+Todd%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=3&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Sondheim%20%22Sweeney%20Todd%22&f=false ''Opera: a critic's guide to the 100 most important works and and the best recordings'', Author: Anthony Tommasini, Macmillan, 2004, p. 202]]. The title page of the Sweeny Todd script shows:"A musical Thriller". I think in the actual articles on these musicals it would be interesting to note if any writers, scholars, or reviewers called the musical an opera, operetta, chamber operetta, or any variation (with appropriate referencing). [[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] ([[User talk:JeanColumbia|talk]]) 12:08, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

:Sondheim has made various statements about this, sometimes saying that they are musicals when played in a theatre but operas when played in an opera house. But whether or not they are "operas" also depends on what critics and audiences think. There is certainly no critical consensus that they are operas. I think the most that can be said is that, on occasion, these pieces, particularly Sweeney, have received operatic treatment. I definitely agree that they should not be described as operas in general, and I also agree that a well-referenced treatment of the question would be helpful. -- [[User:Ssilvers|Ssilvers]] ([[User talk:Ssilvers|talk]]) 18:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks! By the way, I saw Sweeney Todd performed by the Wolf Trap Opera Company (and also on Broadway, etc in the more usual "musical theatre" style) and ALNM performed by New York City Opera (and also in several standard "musical theatre" productions), so I can understand where some are coming from with this idea of opera.[[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] ([[User talk:JeanColumbia|talk]]) 18:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

==Happy Birthday, Stephen!==
Happy 80th birthday, Mr. Sondheim. -- [[User:Ssilvers|Ssilvers]] ([[User talk:Ssilvers|talk]]) 17:58, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

:Oops! re: Nathan Lane. OK, so did the event really happen? Did anyone cancel? Now we can put it in past tense. -- [[User:Ssilvers|Ssilvers]] ([[User talk:Ssilvers|talk]]) 02:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

On 31st July, 2010, the BBC broadcast "Sondheim at 80" as Prom 19 in its 2010 season of Promenade Concerts. Is there any way of adding that here? and, if so, where would it go? See [http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2010/whatson/3107.shtml Sondheim at 80] I have temporarily put it in the "Revues and Anthologies" section but, because it was a one off, I wasn't sure if that was the best place.
[[User:Kuitan|Kuitan]] ([[User talk:Kuitan|talk]]) 11:53, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

::Thanks a million for this! I wanted to add it, but was too lazy to get a good reference. How about putting it in the "Honors and awards", subsection "Sondheim at 80"?? If you agree, you can do it or I will.[[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] ([[User talk:JeanColumbia|talk]]) 12:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

==Photo==
For goodness sake, doesn't anyone have a photo of Sondheim? -- [[User:Ssilvers|Ssilvers]] ([[User talk:Ssilvers|talk]]) 23:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

:Can we use the [http://everythingmusicals.com/.a/6a00d8345212eb69e2012875a8633c970c-500pi Hirschfield illustration?] -- [[User:Ssilvers|Ssilvers]] ([[User talk:Ssilvers|talk]]) 23:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Here he is as a [http://www.last.fm/music/Stephen+Sondheim/+images/116749 very young man] and [http://www.last.fm/music/Stephen+Sondheim/+images many other photos]. -- [[User:Ssilvers|Ssilvers]] ([[User talk:Ssilvers|talk]]) 23:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

:More images: [http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/son0gal-1 here]. -- [[User:Ssilvers|Ssilvers]] ([[User talk:Ssilvers|talk]]) 23:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

== Name from the Shakespeare quote? ==
Hi all,

I'm trying to introduce appropriate links to the orphaned article [[All that glitters is not gold]] (about the familiar quotation from Shakespeare), and I'm guessing the title of Sondheim's musical is taken from there; but I'm not sufficiently familiar with it be sure, or where to introduce it if so. If any of the regular editors of this article could take a look, I'd much appreciate it. --[[User:Xover|Xover]] ([[User talk:Xover|talk]]) 13:03, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
:Hi, I'd be happy to help out but I'm a little confused--what musical are you refering to? (If it's ''Road Show'', which at an early stage was titled ''Gold'', that refers to the "Gold Rush".) [[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] ([[User talk:JeanColumbia|talk]]) 13:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks. I'm thinking of the musical mentioned in [[Stephen Sondheim#Mentored_by_Oscar_Hammerstein_II|this section]] (the redlink in the first list item), which is apparently titled ''All That Glitters''. --[[User:Xover|Xover]] ([[User talk:Xover|talk]]) 15:33, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
:::Ah! OK, I have just finished looking at three reference books-- Martin Gottfried's ''Sondheim'', Meryle Secrest's ''Stephen Sondheim: A Life'', and Craig Zadan's ''Sondheim & Co''. All 3 write about ''All That Glitters'' but none say where Sondheim got the title. I also looked at google books and, although finding many references to the musical, found nothing to show where he got the title. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I'm stumped. [[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] ([[User talk:JeanColumbia|talk]]) 14:22, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

::Hrm. Is there anything about "All that glitters" in the original play, [[Beggar on Horseback]], on which the Sondheim musical All That Glitters is based (according to
[http://www.sondheim.com/works/all_that_glitters/ Sondheim.com]?) [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] | [[User_talk:Schissel|Sound the Note!]] 03:02, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

== Reference list ==

Would anyone oppose if I was replacing <code><nowiki>{{Reflist|3}}</nowiki></code> with <code><nowiki>{{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}</nowiki></code> on this article? —[[User:Bender235|bender235]] ([[User talk:Bender235|talk]]) 22:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

== Les Mis ==
Why [[Les Misérables (musical)|Les Miserables]] are not even mentioned in this article? One of his major participation's. --[[User:WhiteWriter |WhiteWriter ]][[User talk:WhiteWriter |speaks]] 23:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
:Sondheim had nothing to do with Les Miz.--[[User:Bialytock&Bloom|Bialytock&Bloom]] ([[User talk:Bialytock&Bloom|talk]]) 00:44, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
::Agree, I find no references to any involvement by Sondheim with ''Les Miserables''; I looked at several books I have, including the Secrest biography and the Craig Zadan book. Also see the extensive listing at [[http://www.sondheimguide.com/ sondheimguide.com]].[[User:JeanColumbia|JeanColumbia]] ([[User talk:JeanColumbia|talk]]) 12:50, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

==Images again==
There are images of Sondheim here: [http://everythingmusicals.com/.a/6a00d8345212eb69e2012875a8633c970c-500pi Hirschfield illustration] (see also [http://www.myspace.com/asondheimjazzproject/photos/1673573#{%22ImageId%22%3A1673573} this]); [http://www.last.fm/music/Stephen+Sondheim/+images/116749 as a very young man] and [http://www.last.fm/music/Stephen+Sondheim/+images many other photos]. More images: [http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/son0gal-1 here]. [http://www.alhirschfeld.com/sondheim-bergdorf/sondheim.html More Hirschfeld images] [http://www.charitybuzz.com/auctions/hirschfeld And some explanation]. None of these are free images, so you would need a fair use summary, which is very difficult to make with a living person. The article would have to *discuss* the image so that you could make the case that the image is necessary to illustrate something in particular that is discussed in the article. See [[Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria]], especially criterion #8. Ooh! [http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/h?ammem/lbcoll:@field%28NUMBER+@band%28lbphotos+78a179%29%29 THIS might be a free image]. -- [[User:Ssilvers|Ssilvers]] ([[User talk:Ssilvers|talk]]) 23:54, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

== By George ==

"But if you want to know why it's terrible," Hammerstein offered, "I'll tell you."

What did Hammerstein tell him about his first musical he wrote? What was bad about it? — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/152.23.123.240|152.23.123.240]] ([[User talk:152.23.123.240|talk]]) 17:52, 28 November 2011 (UTC) 

:Hrm. Part of the answer seems to be at [http://www.sondheim.com/shows/by_george/ Sondheim.com] - in the documentary [[Six by Sondheim]] the composer, without going to lengthy detail, does say that Mr. Hammerstein told him to think of a musical, a lyric, or a song as a play: it needs to have a definite beginning, a middle, and an end, and to have ended somewhere other from where it began (he added a bit more.) [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] | [[User_talk:Schissel|Sound the Note!]] 03:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

== My little pony songs ==

Why is that under minor works when he only influenced them, not created them? — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/202.137.15.69|202.137.15.69]] ([[User talk:202.137.15.69|talk]]) 00:32, 23 October 2012 (UTC) 

== Hummability issue? ==

Seems to me that a major omission in this article is that it doesn't mention how most of Sondheim's songs (even the ones with the most clever wordplay and stinging insights) are not hummable or instantly catchy. Reliable sources are as follows: [https://books.google.com/books?id=ndlY6OTKM-sC&pg=PA1126] [https://books.google.com/books?id=BfWyQ39xk0wC&pg=PA111] [https://books.google.com/books?id=w2sZLVpH_jwC&pg=PA320] [https://books.google.com/books?id=tuk9aSw7WWEC&pg=PA21] [http://www.dailynews.com/arts-and-entertainment/20141223/into-the-woods-director-rob-marshall-star-anna-kendrick-discuss-stephen-sondheims-real-life-genius] As opposed to Webber's [[Memory (song)|"Memory,"]] Boublil/Schonberg's [[I Dreamed a Dream|"I Dreamed A Dream,"]] the Lopezes' [[Let It Go (Disney song)|"Let It Go,"]] etc. Any objections before I add this information to the article? --[[User:Coolcaesar|Coolcaesar]] ([[User talk:Coolcaesar|talk]]) 09:10, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

::VERY subjective "information" for an encyclopedia. What is "hummability" anyway? Very much "in the ear of the beholder", i.e. fails [[WP:NPOV]]. This is a biography of a person rather than a critical discussion of his work. All in all, I honestly think (in this context anyway) I'd leave it out.--[[User:Soundofmusicals|Soundofmusicals]] ([[User talk:Soundofmusicals|talk]]) 00:24, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
:::But it is the single most widely reported criticism of Sondheim's work, and one that reportedly frustrates him so much that he made it a plot point in one of his musicals, ''[[Merrily We Roll Along (musical)|Merrily We Roll Along]]'' (which actually discusses whether a Broadway composer is required to write hummable music). For example, most middle-class or upper-class Americans can recognize Memory, I Dreamed A Dream, or Let It Go whenever someone hums a few notes, but very few people will recognize No One Is Alone, and even those that vaguely recognize Send in the Clowns are unlikely to recall that Sondheim wrote it. Furthermore, under [[WP:NOT]], Wikipedia is not censored. This is why, for example, we include verifiable negative critiques of [[Celine Dion]] and [[Andrew Lloyd Webber]]. --[[User:Coolcaesar|Coolcaesar]] ([[User talk:Coolcaesar|talk]]) 06:25, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
::::Don't know where "censorship" comes into it. We simply do not present critical assessments (either favourable or otherwise) of artists' work. In the same way our articles about (say) books, plays, musicals, pictures etc. are (or should be) objective descriptions, not reviews. We can get away with general statements about what the critics said (such as "critical response was favourable/unfavourable/mixed") provided they are well-cited, but to say that a particular song is "hummable", or that "hummability" or any other vague criterion, is typical (or not so typical) of a composer's work is highly subjective, and not the sort of "information" that we normally think of as forming a useful part of an encyclopedia article. The balanced treatment of accusations of plagiarism against Andrew Lloyd Webber and "aggressive sentimentality" against Celine Dion (which I have just read, in a sincere effort to understand where you are coming from) are both in another category really, apart from being doggedly "third party" (X says A but Y says B). Incidentally, if "Send in the clowns" (not to mention a rack of other Sondheim melodies) aren't "hummable" I have no idea what the word is supposed to mean - and as for the idea that many people couldn't tell you where SITC is from, I have been soundly berated for hinting that the score of "Les Mis" WASN'T by ALW but a French chap called Schonberg (who's he?). The ignorance of the aggressively ignorant who know everything without ever checking to make sure they are right should not dictate what an encyclopedia says about a subject (among other considerations, they'll never "look it up" here or anywhere else anyway). We are here to facilitate information, not discuss patent misinformation (see [[WP:UNDUE]]). --[[User:Soundofmusicals|Soundofmusicals]] ([[User talk:Soundofmusicals|talk]]) 02:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::Um, you're missing the point. Under your own criteria, Wikipedia could ''never'' present critical views of artistic works or an artist's body of work, except at a very superficial level. But we do so all the time, provided that such views are properly attributed and stated in a neutral fashion.
:::::I just ran a search on "Sondheim" and "hummable" on Google Books---it looks like this issue is heavily discussed in the published academic literature on Sondheim and by Sondheim himself in his own books on his work. I'll have to figure out how to add citations to those sources when I have the time. Unfortunately, unless you are in the U.S., it is unlikely that you can view those works on Google Books since most countries are very far behind U.S. copyright law in terms of developing the law of [[fair use]].
:::::Also, if you read my statement carefully above, I mentioned Send in the Clowns specifically as an example of a Sondheim work that ''is'' hummable, so it is really odd that you read my sentence the other way around. (This is clearly implicit in the sentence structure I used.) Please look at a refresher text on [[close reading]]. --[[User:Coolcaesar|Coolcaesar]] ([[User talk:Coolcaesar|talk]]) 10:14, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::The "point" is that an encyclopedia, in particular this one, is very specifically NOT (primarily at least) "concerned with critical views of artistic works or an artist's body of work, except at a very superficial level". When such things are mentioned here at all they are usually incidental to something else, they are "third person" (A says X), and balanced (but B says Y). When we do mention such matters we tend to objectivity: "show S had a Broadway run of only Y performances" is better, and more in keeping with our general ethos than "show s had a poor reception on Broadway". Either is much more likely than "the tunes from show s were utterly unhummable", which would be patent POV. You seem concerned that such matter as "hummability" may be discussed elsewhere, even in Sondheim's own writings. Of course they might. In a review, for instance, writing is (often intensely) subjective and personal - even the most objective review (or other work that is mainly a critical assessment) will be full of stuff that would be inappropriate ''in an encyclopedia''. As I think I already mentioned, so what? An excellent review may have very little material we could use in an encyclopedia article, and of course ''vice versa'' - they are simply different animals. Lapses from this standard in Wiki are of course no excuse whatsoever to introduce fresh examples - more likely to indicate stuff that needs rewriting or excising. Finally, I must apologise for my little flippant flight into the personal in re. ''Send in the clowns''. All I meant is that as well as being inappropriate ''here'' the idea of Sondheim being "unhummable" is far from being universally sustainable anyway - especially if "hummable" is taken as a synonym for "memorable" rather than "consisting of predictable cadences, lacking unusual intervals, and never deviating from familiar rhythmic patterns - in short, melodic cliche". The germ of truth in all this lies in the fact that many listeners find Sondheim "difficult" because even his most memorable melodies tend to be a little unpredictable, free of the the musical equivalents of always rhyming "love" with "dove" and such like. This assessment is incidentally my own opinion, utterly NPOV, and has no more place in the article than any other "review type" information. --[[User:Soundofmusicals|Soundofmusicals]] ([[User talk:Soundofmusicals|talk]]) 21:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::But many great artists do have controversies surrounding their style and encyclopedias do mention those controversies directly even when they involve subjective judgments. For example, Britannica mentions the various perspectives on[http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/537853/William-Shakespeare/232331/Linguistic-historical-textual-and-editorial-problems|William Shakespeare's style]. They also discuss [http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/459275/Pablo-Picasso/59640/The-Picasso-myth criticism of Picasso]. An encyclopedia that is completely expurgated of any mention of any controversy about any creative person's style would be a very poor encyclopedia. I see nothing in [[WP:NOT]] or [[WP:NPOV]] that warrants that. --[[User:Coolcaesar|Coolcaesar]] ([[User talk:Coolcaesar|talk]]) 08:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::"Controversies surrounding style" can only very occasionally be raised, much less discussed at any depth, without becoming NPOV. Circumstances really need to be special. Britannica can afford to be a little more subjective than us, since most articles are substantially the work of a single author; an Encyclopedia like ''The Oxford Companion to Music'' (originally ''entirely by one author'' - Percy Scholes wrote everything but the opera plot synopses) can be a bit more subjective again - but even there the kind of free reign a reviewer has would simply be inappropriate and is largely forgone. --[[User:Soundofmusicals|Soundofmusicals]] ([[User talk:Soundofmusicals|talk]]) 23:40, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::Unlike you, I actually got around to reading up on Sondheim. He acknowledges the hummability critique in his 2010 book ''Finishing The Hat'' in his comments on ''Merrily We Roll Along'', where he discusses the song "Opening Doors." In that song, Joe Josephson, a character in the musical, harshly criticizes another character for not writing a hummable melody. Sondheim notes that the song "Opening Doors" is drawn directly from his own "external life experiences." He goes on to explain: "In my heyday as a young songwriter, I played many requests at many parties through the short attention span of the requesters and suffered many opinions of producers and directors who felt that their credentials demanded that they have something critical to say. I have spent a good deal of my professional life with the Joe Josephsons of the theater. All young songwriters have, and my heart goes out to them." --[[User:Coolcaesar|Coolcaesar]] ([[User talk:Coolcaesar|talk]]) 22:28, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141017142037/http://sondheimreview.com/index.html to http://www.sondheimreview.com/index.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110727134947/https://www.nyma.org/page.cfm?p=318&pback=317 to http://www.nyma.org/page.cfm?p=318&pback=317

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== External links modified ==

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== Pic of Hammerstein ==

We can't tell whether this is the father or the son. [[User:Valetude|Valetude]] ([[User talk:Valetude|talk]]) 22:47, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

== Possible improvements to intro ==

Just passing by as a non-expert, and the intro is very strong, but the transition between the first two sentences feels awkward due to repetition of the same thought (know for work in theater, one of the most important figures in musical theater). What do you think of the following simplification?

: '''Stephen Joshua Sondheim''' ({{IPAc-en|ˈ|s|ɒ|n|d|h|aɪ|m}}; born March 22, 1930) is an American composer and lyricist. One of the most important figures in 20th-century [[musical theater]], Sondheim has been praised for having “reinvented the American musical" ...

Also, in the intro last paragraph, more Tonys than any other composer is added as an afterthought but packs more punch than the content of the sentence, and is not specific about what kind of Tony award, what about something like the following?

: Sondheim has won eight [[Tony Award]]s for best musical, more than any other composer. His other awards include an [[Academy Awards|Academy Award]], a [[Special Tony Award]], eight [[Grammy Award]]s, a [[Pulitzer Prize]], a [[Laurence Olivier Award]], and a 2015 [[Presidential Medal of Freedom]].

Thoughts?
[[User:Cstanford.math|Cstanford.math]] ([[User talk:Cstanford.math|talk]]) 06:30, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

In the absence of any discussion I went ahead and made the edits, but if they are not good please feel free to revert and post a response here. [[User:Cstanford.math|Cstanford.math]] ([[User talk:Cstanford.math|talk]]) 22:08, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

== Knives Out ==

Knives Out did not win any Oscars.

Talk:Jean Harlow

2021-10-27T14:03:55Z

209.122.216.158: /* Harlow: The Blond Bombshell Documentary */ new section

{{WikiProject banner shell|1=
{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=B|filmbio-priority= Top|filmbio-work-group=yes|listas=Harlow, Jean}}
{{WikiProject Kansas City|class=B|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Women's History| class=B}}
{{WikiProject Illinois|class=B|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Missouri|class=B|importance=Low}}
}}
{{Vital article|level=5|topic=People|subpage=Entertainers|class=B}}
{{OnThisDay|date1=2021-06-07|oldid1=1027099852}}

== Gay Icon Project ==

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article [[Gay icon]] to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article [[Gay icon]] and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:47, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

== About the picture ==
It is a fuzzy dull image. Could there not be a better one here?

== sweat and urine ==

''She began to tire quickly, prespire heavily, and her body sweat were laced with urine as her kidneys stopped functioning.''

What on earth does this mean? [[User:Flapdragon|Flapdragon]] 01:45, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

At the very end Harlow contracted nephritic poisoning, a toxic side effect of kidney failure. With the kidneys shut down, the body cannot excrete waste through normal channels, instead it comes out through the breath and sweat. [[User:PatrickJ83|PatrickJ83]] 00:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

==Very inappropriate information==
I am not surprised of course, but I am not going to explain 100 times and be reverted,
- basically wiki then looses and it should. Paul Bern was possibly drained in the perfume, no proof,
- also his lover Millette it is accepted she committed suicide but there is evidence dirty play was involved,
- so how come it does not say... allegedly... so be careful with such statements.
- And case was reopened as you will see noted on Bern bio, grow up vandals! What, no free wiki here!

There is nothing mentioned of this in David Stenn's very relevant 1992 Harlow bio. I have mainly seen this in gossipy, low-brow publications like Kenneth Anger's "Hollywood Babylon" and the like. [[User:PatrickJ83|PatrickJ83]] 00:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

== Paragraph formatting ==

Hi fellow Harlow heads!

I want to talk a bit about paragraph formatting. Someone took apart the paragraph sentences in the "later career and death" section and moved them apart so the paragraphs were only two sentences or so each. This is improper formatting - a paragraph is one train of thought, it remains together until another train of thought. So the paragraph on the death cause myths should remain together as it all discusses one thing, and not be taken apart. Thanks. [[User:PatrickJ83|PatrickJ83]] 01:59, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

== The Great Rewrite: A blog ==

Today is the beginning of the Great Rewrite (as I call it) of the Jean Harlow page. It is my intention to reinvent this page from a superficial and boring article into the best, most useful and most comprehensive source on Jean Harlow information on the web.

First entry, April 22

*Today I totally re-worded the intro paragraph. I also expanded on the trivia section, removing dubious stuff and inserting more interesting trivia such as paralells with [[Marilyn Monroe]] and the like.

*I began my complete reworking of the Early life section. Got about 70% done. [[User:PatrickJ83|PatrickJ83]] 03:54, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Second Entry, April 23

*Finished re-write of Early life section. [[User:PatrickJ83|PatrickJ83]] 20:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Third entry, May 10.

*Re-wrote Career beginnings section. [[User:PatrickJ83|PatrickJ83]] 09:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

==Trivia suggestion==
It's a widely held view here that "trivia" sections are not entirely appropriate for our articles, however a lot of the points made under this heading in this article are interesting, and probably important enough to include in the article. My suggestion is to look at working these into the article and removing the "trivia" section. For example the song name checks - each song listed was a HUGE hit. Perhaps these should go under a "Legacy" heading - how is Harlow viewed since her death - what has been her lasing impact etc? Marilyn Monroe would be a great example to also use under this heading as she had acknowledged Harlow as one of her idols, and certainly a lot of Marilyn's style was inspired by her. That Harlow influenced arguably the most famous movie star of the century deserves to be discussed in the article, rather than included as trivia. (interesting snippet, and this truly is trivia.... both Harlow and Monroe had [[Clark Gable]] as their last leading man.) The other points could easily be incorporated into the article, and would make the article stronger at the same time. [[User:Rossrs|Rossrs]] 09:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

:I'm re-writing the article in linear order. Once I finish the article (ending at her death) I will add new sections for her marriages and one for her legacy within the context of pop culture. [[User:PatrickJ83|PatrickJ83]] 20:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
==Very inappropriate information==
I am not surprised of course on wiki all is wrong, but I am not going to explain 100 times and be reverted,
- basically wiki then looses and it should. Paul Bern was possibly drained in the perfume, no proof,
- also his lover Millette it is accepted she committed suicide but there is evidence dirty play was involved,
- so how come it does not say... allegedly... so be careful with such statements. The case of Paul Bern was reopened in 1960 to no avail.
:What? [[User:Wilus|Wilus]] ([[User talk:Wilus|talk]]) 16:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

==The novel==
I have created an article on the novel [[Today is Tonight]] which is credited to Harlow. Although I have a copy of this rare book all the information I have added here and in the novel's article is taken from the introduction. Any expansion regarding the novel itself and its history is welcome. If there is reputable proof that the book wasn't written by her, then this should of course be added where applicable. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 23:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

==Klieg Eye==
An article in one of the early fan magazines claimed that Harlow suffered such a bad case of klieg eye (where looking into strong stage lights for too long burns the surface of the eye) during the filming of `Hells Angels' that she was forced to wear dark glasses for almost a year. No doubt this is sensational nonsense, but in the context of her other health issues, it would be interesting to know if it was true. Anyone else have any information? [[User:Ravenclaw|Ravenclaw]] ([[User talk:Ravenclaw|talk]]) 12:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

HOW COME THERES NO MENTION OF THE RIN TIN TIN LEGEND? EASILY THE MOST FASCINATING THING ABOUT HER! —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.109.158.55|71.109.158.55]] ([[User talk:71.109.158.55|talk]]) 20:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC) 

:Again - what? [[User:Ravenclaw|Ravenclaw]] ([[User talk:Ravenclaw|talk]]) 12:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

==[[WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers]] priority assessment==
Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles of the project, this article has been included as a top priority article. [[User:Wildhartlivie|Wildhartlivie]] ([[User talk:Wildhartlivie|talk]]) 05:46, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

==Spelling of Surname==

I swear I'd read that her name was "Carpentier". Can someone please clear this up, or at least bring to light the misunderstanding?? —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/96.42.44.202|96.42.44.202]] ([[User talk:96.42.44.202|talk]]) 22:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC) 

:According to Harlow's biographer Golden, the studio (not specified which one) used Carpentier in their press releases because it sounded better. Carpenter is the correct spelling, though. I have added a note on this in the article. [[User:KatherineK|KatherineK]] ([[User talk:KatherineK|talk]]) 29 September 2009

==Music==
She was menation in:

* Kim Carnes - "Bette Davis Eyes" (1981.): "Her hair is HARLOW gold...
* Madonna - "Vogue" (1990): HARLOW JEAN picture of the beauty quenn —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/161.53.215.136|161.53.215.136]] ([[User talk:161.53.215.136|talk]]) 04:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC) 

:Your point? This qualifies as trivia and per [[WP:TRIVIA]], such sections are discouraged and should not be started where they do not currently exist. [[User:Wildhartlivie|Wildhartlivie]] ([[User talk:Wildhartlivie|talk]]) 04:34, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

::Not really, it shows that she is part of the [[pop culture]]. [[User:Alecsdaniel|Alecsdaniel]] ([[User talk:Alecsdaniel|talk]]) 21:50, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

==Second marriage?==

Harlow was indeed married twice, not just once, as the article currently states. According to these Google results: [http://www.legacy.com/ns/news-story.aspx?t=jean-harlow--the-platinum-blonde&id=267 here] and [http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/jean-harlow-dies here]. ''Red Dust'' isn't even mentioned in the article. [[User:Estheroliver|Estheroliver]] ([[User talk:Estheroliver|talk]]) 18:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

==JeanHarlow.com==
The site JeanHarlow.com was referred as belonging to the estate of Jean Harlow when this article was created on 11 August 2003 but now there is no such a mention. See: http://web.archive.org/web/20030806054123/http://www.jeanharlow.com/ for the archived version of the site as it appeared at the date of creation of this article. [[User:SpeakFree|SpeakFree]] ([[User talk:SpeakFree|talk]]) 17:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

== "Blonde Bombshell" ==

It is popularly believed today (and may be found in many books) that she was nicknamed so after the film "Bombshell". However one book [http://books.google.com/books?id=uaOC59y0xW4C&pg=PA213&dq=%22blonde+bombshell%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kRmjT-LRLY7OiAKzqOTrDA&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBTg8#v=onepage&q=%22blonde%20bombshell%22&f=false] claims that she was actually called so already in 1932. And that ''Bombshell'' was actually a "transparently autobiographical" film, the latter suggesting that the choice of the film title was after her nickname, not vice versa. Any additional evidence to this? It would be nice if wikipedia clarifies this culturally notable trivia. [[User:Staszek Lem|Staszek Lem]] ([[User talk:Staszek Lem|talk]]) 00:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Then she was starring in a movie called Bombshell and received a nickname and she had similar things with the role that totally enhanced it. Now we know she garnered more similarities including her third marriage, not true at time of filming, so many current authors (2012 and on) draw more parallels then there were in 1932. It would burden the article to try and dismiss after raising these, in my opinion. The films scriptwriters were John Lee Mahin and Jules Furthman if more research is wanted. Allusions to Victor Fleming, the director having a hand too. [[User:Jennablurrs7575|Jennablurrs7575]] ([[User talk:Jennablurrs7575|talk]]) 23:21, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

== Who doubled as Jean Harlow after she died? ==

This Wikipedia article mentions 3 doubles, nonames given. A YouTube entry, primarily about "fake Shemp" (continuing the Shemp character in 4 posthumous episodes) named Mary Dees as a double in the above-mentioned Harlow situation. [[User:Carlm0404|Carlm0404]] ([[User talk:Carlm0404|talk]]) 00:48, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
:Good point, and it has been corrected.[[User:Jennablurrs7575|Jennablurrs7575]] ([[User talk:Jennablurrs7575|talk]]) 01:34, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

== Our Baby ==

[[File:Jean Harlow Grave.JPG|thumb|The Jean Harlow crypt in the Great Mausoleum at Forest Lawn Glendale reads "Our Baby"|alt=]]
In the picture at right, the caption implies the words "Our Baby" are visible. I couldn't find them. [[User:Art LaPella|Art LaPella]] ([[User talk:Art LaPella|talk]]) 05:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

== Harlow: The Blond Bombshell Documentary ==

The documentary was first broadcast on TNT in August 1993, not Turner Classic Movies because TCM did not become a a cable station
until the following year.

Talk:Melvin Van Peebles/Archive 1

2021-10-14T12:20:37Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death II */ new section

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== Madlib project? ==

i took off the copy edit mark; also i took out a segment saying that Madlib had a project going with him. I couldnt find any sources supporting that claim. if someone has presentable sources for that claim, i will gladly move for a revert. cheers, --[[User:Zachjones4|zachjones4]] 17:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

This:http://www.emusic.com/album/10898/10898723.html should prove it ([[User:Talrinys|Talrinys]] 21:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC))

* Here's definitive proof: http://www.stonesthrow.com/news/melvinvanpeebles/ ([[User:Sugar Bear|Sugar Bear]] 21:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC))

== Playwright ==

Melvin Van Peebles also has several notable plays and broke ground there as well with "Ain't supposed to die" which is currently revived off-brodway.

He has also released numerous music albums.

--[[User:Netw1z|Netw1z]] 18:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

== Expansion ==

Melvin Van Peebles has done so much, and this article doesn't really reflect that. It definitely needs some more info on his life and career. ([[User:Sugar Bear|Sugar Bear]] 18:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC))

== "Van" ==

Could anyone contribute some biographical information? Aside from no mention of any partners, spouses, or children besides Mario, I think the uninformed reader might want to know about his adoption of "Van Peebles" as his surname.
[[User:Ipsenaut|Ipsenaut]] ([[User talk:Ipsenaut|talk]]) 16:56, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
:Agreed! But, where to find such info? [[User:Luminifer|Luminifer]] ([[User talk:Luminifer|talk]]) 04:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

== Heads up for External Links ==
I've noticed some wikipedia fanatics going around deleting external links that aren't 'official' - interviews and such. They say that if they're really useful, they should be included in a ref tag instead. So, if anyone has any time to do that, just pull those external links into the appropriate ref tags. :) [[User:Luminifer|Luminifer]] ([[User talk:Luminifer|talk]]) 17:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on [[Melvin Van Peebles]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=686316913 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080511144604/http://apollotheater.org/SALON_SERIES.html to http://www.apollotheater.org/SALON_SERIES.html
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== External links modified ==

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== Date of Death ==

He died on the Tuesday night of September 21, 2021 according to sources. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/209.122.216.158|209.122.216.158]] ([[User talk:209.122.216.158#top|talk]]) 13:07, 8 October 2021 (UTC) 

== Date of Death II ==

Please correct the day he died, he died on September 21, 2021 not on September 22.

Talk:Melvin Van Peebles/Archive 1

2021-10-08T13:07:57Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

Talk:Jane Powell

2021-09-16T18:42:12Z

209.122.216.158: /* Death */ new section

{{Talk header}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes|class=B|filmbio-priority=mid|filmbio-work-group=yes|listas=Powell, Jane|musician-work-group=yes|musician-priority=}}
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{{WikiProject Dance|class=B|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Women in music}}
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== confusion on the last paragraph ==

The last few sentences of the article are very, very confusing. One cannot have one's lungs removed and live! Further, one cannot have one's tonsils "replaced." They can be removed, yes, but not replaced. There are several other points, but those are the two that left me particularly puzzled as to what the author was trying to say.
[[User:Johngalt2788|Johngalt2788]] ([[User talk:Johngalt2788|talk]]) 03:33, 2 October 2012 (UTC)johngalt2788

I have an album by Jane Powell that is not listed - Songs by Jane Powell on Columbia as sung in the picture "Holiday in Mexico". The songs are Ava Maria, Les Filles de Cadiz, I Think of You, and Italian Street Song. Jane Powell was my very favorite actress in the musicals of the day. I wanted to be just like her - but of course that didn't happen. [[Special:Contributions/98.94.158.225|98.94.158.225]] ([[User talk:98.94.158.225|talk]]) 12:27, 1 April 2013 (UTC) (I have never written on a site before. Hope this is okay.)

== Death ==

She is as of now 9-16-21 still alive.

Talk:Deborah Rush

2021-09-07T04:55:08Z

209.122.216.158: /* Filmography */ new section

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{{WikiProject New Jersey|class=Stub|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Television|class=Stub|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Theatre|class=Stub|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject United States|class=Stub|importance=Low|USTV=Yes|USTV-importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Women|class=Stub}}
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== External links modified ==

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== Filmography ==

She also appeared in the film "10" as a kooky dental nurse.

Talk:Dave Van Horne

2021-08-28T15:12:47Z

209.122.216.158: /* Age */ new section

{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes |class=Start |sports-work-group=yes |listas=Van Horne, Dave}}
{{WikiProject Baseball|halloffame=yes |halloffame-importance= |class=Start |importance=Mid}}

==Baseball assessment comment==
{{Substituted comment|page=Talk:Dave Van Horne/Comments (baseball)|length=788|lastedit=20070902002044|comment=This article is incorrect.

This article says that Dave Van Horne left the Montreal Expos in 2000 to join the Marlins, that is incorrect.

For the 2000 season, the Montreal Expos failed to negotiate a contract with the English speaking radio broadcasts, so for the 2000 season. Thus Dave Van Horne did not have a job for the 2000 season.

Prior to the 2000 season, John Henry, the owner of the Marlins, announced that he would make Dave O'Brien the number One broadcaster, over the original voice of the Marlins, Joe Angel, but honored Joe Angel's contract through the end of the 2000 season.

Dave Van Horne joined the Marlins for the 2001 season, not the 2000 season, to take the place of Dave 'Brien as the radio announcer for the Marlins, after Joe Angel's contract expired.}}
Substituted at 14:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== Age ==

He is now 82 years old.

Talk:Cady McClain

2021-08-20T12:39:36Z

209.122.216.158: /* First Film */ new section

{{WikiProject Biography
|living=yes
|class=Start
|a&e-work-group=yes 
|listas=McClain, Cady
|musician-work-group=yes|musician-priority=}}
{{WikiProject Women|class=Start}}

== Fibroid tumor ==

According to a recent [http://www.cadymcclain.com/blog/?p=282 blog post], McClain has been diagnosed with a [[fibroid tumor]]. As this isn't cancerous, is it worth mentioning? --[[User talk:Mr Ralph|Mr R]] 00:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
:Hmm, not sure. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 01:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

==Image copyright problem with Image:Dixie Cooney Martin.jpg==
The image [[:Image:Dixie Cooney Martin.jpg]] is used in this article under a claim of [[WP:NFC|fair use]], but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the [[WP:NFCC|requirements for such images]] when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline|explanation]] linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

:* That there is a [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline|non-free use rationale]] on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.


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== First Film ==

Pennies From Heaven came out in 1981, the year before My Favorite Year.

Talk:Maureen McCormick

2021-08-06T19:17:21Z

209.122.216.158: /* Age */ new section

{{WikiProject banner shell |living=yes |1=
{{WikiProject Biography |living=yes |class=B |filmbio-work-group=yes |listas=McCormick, Maureen|musician-work-group=yes|musician-priority=}}
{{WikiProject Women writers |class=B |importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Television |class=B}}
{{WikiProject Women in music}}
| blp=yes
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==Hairdo==
''The long, straight, blonde hair she sported in the Brady Bunch is occasionaly nicknamed "Marcia Brady Hair".''

I've never heard this before, and so many people have had blonde, straight hair...so I don't think it's unique to Marcia Brady. Removed. [[User:TheCustomOfLife|Mike H]] 23:21, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

:Hers was considered to be a sterotypical example, and an example of hair ironing, but maybe its just as well left out. [[User:Rlquall|Rlquall]] 00:52, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Marsha's Growing Years ==

Maureen is actually from Woodland Hills, California, not Los Angeles. She attended Calabash Street Elementary School and Hughes Junior High School.

== This picture is hilarious ==

I don't know what's going on in this photo, but there's some blurring in the lower right, and I think her left arm is in on it too, but it looks like she has Popeye forearms. It might just be a simple eye-trick on my part, but I can't see how this photo isn't altered to look like that. [[User:JesseRafe|JesseRafe]] 19:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

== Added her album ==

I added her album, "When You Get a Little Lonely", and changed her title as "acress and recording artist". [[User:ThemCityBlues|ThemCityBlues]] 19:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

== LGBT info ==
I removed the [[:Category:LGBT actors]] and bit about her crush on Eve Plumb. Not because it's wrong, just that a) Google Groups isn't a reliable source, b) it was a kiss on the cheek - read [http://www.eonline.com/news/article/index.jsp?uuid=17d78967-a3a0-4b39-b94f-a8a56c0c7cd9 the article] if you don't believe me. -- [[User:SatyrTN|SatyrTN]] ([[User talk:SatyrTN|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/SatyrTN|contribs]]) 03:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

:It's back. About to remove again. [[User:WAVY 10|WAVY 10]] 12:34, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

::I have issue wrt the internet rumor being given attention. What hasn't been rumored on the internet? —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jtdunlop|Jtdunlop]] ([[User talk:Jtdunlop|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jtdunlop|contribs]]) 16:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC) 

:::This is one rumor that just refuses to die. If McCormick isn't a lesbian then there are ''a lot'' of people over the last ten or twenty years who've been repeating incorrectly that she is. --[[Special:Contributions/98.232.181.201|98.232.181.201]] ([[User talk:98.232.181.201|talk]]) 01:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

== "Best Friends" ==

Florence Hendersen is 20+ years older than Maureen. Is the "best friends" comment really accurate? —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/165.189.169.190|165.189.169.190]] ([[User talk:165.189.169.190|talk]]) 15:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC) 

== One of Marcia's TV shows is left out ==

I read in her book that she was on about 10 episodes of Teen Angel in 1997. You should add that to your list of her TV Series. [[Special:Contributions/69.119.67.42|69.119.67.42]] ([[User talk:69.119.67.42|talk]]) 06:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I seem to remember that Maureen appeared in the movie "American Graffiti", in a small part. I might be confusing this with her role in Happy Days, but I'm not sure. If true, and because it proved such a popular movie, it should be listed in her career work. ([[User:John G. Lewis|John G. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John G. Lewis|talk]]) 02:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC))
:No indication of this on IMDb. We'd need a reliable source. - [[User:SummerPhD|SummerPhD]] ([[User talk:SummerPhD|talk]]) 02:48, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

== Michael Jackson ==

She says she dated Michael Jackson when they were both teenagers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktcdq3tIxoU —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.21.50.212|94.21.50.212]] ([[User talk:94.21.50.212|talk]]) 17:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC) 

==Passion TV Series role==

Why was she in so few episodes of [[Passions (soap opera)|Passions]]? Was she replaced or did was it her own decision to discontinue the role? [[User:Format|Format]] ([[User talk:Format|talk]]) 06:09, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

== ''[[The Bradys]]'' ==

An IP added in 2011 that she appeared in the 1990 series ''[[The Bradys]]''; this contradicts the sources. She has also been added to the series article by the same IP, but according to the sources [[Leah Ayres]] played Marcia in that series. [[User:Yngvadottir|Yngvadottir]] ([[User talk:Yngvadottir|talk]]) 13:11, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

== External links modified (January 2018) ==

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== Age ==

She is now 65 years old.

Talk:Joanna Cassidy

2021-08-02T12:49:07Z

209.122.216.158: /* First Major Film Role */ new section

{{WPBiography|living=yes|class=Start|filmbio-work-group=yes|listas=Cassidy, Joanna}}
{{WikiProject Women |class=start }}

== a photo ==
please —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/82.198.34.220|82.198.34.220]] ([[User talk:82.198.34.220|talk]]) 07:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
* Easier said than done. With Wikipedia's rules on copyright, pretty much the only photo that will be allowed is one that an editor actually takes him or herself. [[User:68.146.47.196|68.146.47.196]] 06:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

* She appeared on Boston Legal as "Beverly", and was married to William Shatner's "Denny Crane", during the 2006 or 2007 season. And her "Heroes" character needs to be added to the "Heroes: List of Characters" page. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.225.212.208|71.225.212.208]] ([[User talk:71.225.212.208|talk]]) 14:08, 6 December 2007 (UTC) 

== Cassidy ==
Don't know a reference, but I vaguely remember [[David Cassidy]] married s.o. named Joanna way back when. Is this she? Is that how she acquired the name? They apparently got divorced at some point. [[Special:Contributions/76.97.245.5|76.97.245.5]] ([[User talk:76.97.245.5|talk]]) 00:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

== Star Trek: Enterprise ==
It should be added to her list of credits that she guest stared as T'Les, the mother of T'Pol, in the Enterprise 4th season episodes "Awakening" (http://www.startrek.com/watch_episode/WSZ_L8R8SAsDDtvMp79hVunjrPmw_kVl) and "Home". These credits can be verified at her IMDb page (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001026/) as well as the credits to Star Trek: Enterprise which can be found at the StarTrek.com web site. I'd add it myself, but I'm not sure how.
[[User:Profharoldhill|Profharoldhill]] ([[User talk:Profharoldhill|talk]]) 07:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

== Wheels of Terror ==
She also starred Laura in the 1990´s trash movie Wheels of Terror. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/85.178.3.205|85.178.3.205]] ([[User talk:85.178.3.205|talk]]) 22:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC) 

== External links modified ==

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== First Major Film Role ==

Blade Runner was not her first major film role, she had been in numerous films before that
starting in 1973.

Talk:John Cornell

2021-07-23T12:23:53Z

209.122.216.158: /* Oscar Nominee */ new section

{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=B|filmbio-work-group=yes|filmbio-priority=low|listas=Cornell, John}}
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{{WikiProject Cricket|class=B|importance=low}}

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== Oscar Nominee ==

He was nominated for an Oscar for co-writing "Crocodile" Dundee.

Talk:Wyatt Russell

2021-06-23T02:17:14Z

209.122.216.158: /* Half-Brother */ new section

{{WikiProject banner shell|1=
{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes|class=Start|listas=Russell, Wyatt|sports-work-group=yes|sports-priority=low|filmbio-work-group=yes|filmbio-priority=low}}
{{WikiProject Chicago|class=Start|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Ice Hockey|class=Start|college=yes|bio=yes|auto=inherit}}
| blp=yes
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== "Professional hockey player" ==

"Russell played for numerous amateur hockey teams as a goaltender"

So was he professional or amateur? Can't be both. [[User:Fish and karate|Fish]]+[[User_talk:Fish and karate|Karate]] 09:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

== Half-Brother ==

He has a half-brother named Boston from Kurt Russell's marriage to Season Hubley.

Talk:Valerie Mahaffey

2021-06-18T12:52:58Z

209.122.216.158: /* Age */ new section

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{{WikiProject Women| class=Stub}}
{{WikiProject Biography
|living=yes
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{{WikiProject United States|class=Stub|importance=Low|TX=yes|TX-importance=Low}}
| blp=yes
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== Why WP:INA? ==

Who is she? Why is this article included in the [[WP:INA | Wikiproject Indonesia]]??? — [[User:Indon|Indon]] 12:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
:She's an ''American'' actress who just happened to be ''born'' in Indonesia, so she doesn't really belong in that WikiProject. I'll remove it. --[[User:CrazyLegsKC|CrazyLegsKC]] 03:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

== Age ==

She is now 68 years old as of 6/16/21.

Talk:Ally Sheedy

2021-06-09T12:33:30Z

209.122.216.158: /* Retired Actress */ new section

{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|1=
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|filmbio-priority=Mid|a&e-work-group=yes
|filmbio-work-group=yes|listas=Sheedy, Ally}}
{{WikiProject New York City|class=C|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism|class=C|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Women|class=c }}
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}}

== [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment ==
[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Assessment|WikiProject Biography Assessment]]

Needs a photo, and ultimately more info, but basically a B.

The article may be improved by following the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography#WikiProject_Biography_11_easy_steps_to_producing_at_least_a_B_article|WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps]] to producing at least a B article. -- [[User:Yamara|Yamara]] 21:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

==Picture==
Does anyone have a good picture for this page? Thank you. [[User:JackO'Lantern|JackO'Lantern]] 06:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

*The image choice for this page seems to be in slightly bad taste - surely this isn't the best free-to-use image of Sheedy available? [[User:Yeanold Viskersenn|Yeanold Viskersenn]] 04:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

:You can find pictures of ally sheedy on the Internet Movie Database.

Thnks [[User:Dockofusa|Dockofusa]] ([[User talk:Dockofusa|talk]]) 20:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

==Comments==
Who wrote: "However, she became anorexic and after she developed breasts" ?!?! That seems like a bit of speculation on the writer's part (and also in poor taste). What do her breasts have to do with anything? The remark about being anorexic seems a bit subjective too. Are there any citations for this? I'd remove this whole sentence. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.136.44.183|71.136.44.183]] ([[User talk:71.136.44.183|talk]]) 11:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 

==Assessment comment==
{{Substituted comment|length=519|lastedit=20070529210058|comment={{nw=}}{{nw=}} [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment {{nw=}}{{nw=}}
[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Assessment|WikiProject Biography Assessment]]

Needs a photo, and ultimately more info, but basically a B.

The article may be improved by following the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography#WikiProject_Biography_11_easy_steps_to_producing_at_least_a_B_article|WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps]] to producing at least a B article. -- [[User:Yamara|Yamara]] 21:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)}}
Substituted at 07:25, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

==James Franco just won. Please never ever ask me why I left the film/tv business. 6:11 PM - 7 Jan 2018==
*http://web.archive.org/web/20180108040000/https:/twitter.com/allysheedy1/status/950188292103987205
[[Special:Contributions/64.175.40.108|64.175.40.108]] ([[User talk:64.175.40.108|talk]]) 04:19, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

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== Book and Appearance on To Tell The Truth (1972 episode)==
The book she wrote 'She Was Nice To Mice' which was the reason for her appearance and the appearance on the show should be added to her page. You can find a the video on the Internet.
<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0f-JHUfZSA</ref> [[Special:Contributions/203.131.210.82|203.131.210.82]] ([[User talk:203.131.210.82|talk]]) 06:04, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Retired Actress ==

She has not retired from acting that information was misleading as she still
is turning up in low budget independent films.

Talk:Patsy Bruce

2021-05-18T04:41:44Z

209.122.216.158: /* Ex-Husband */ new section

{{WikiProject Biography|class=start|living=no|a&e-work-group=yes|listas=Bruce, Patsy}}
{{WikiProject Country|class=start}}

== Ex-Husband ==

When she died she was already divorced from Ed Bruce.

Talk:Frank McRae

2021-05-08T18:55:35Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

{{WikiProject banner shell|1=
{{WikiProject Illinois|class=Stub|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Chicago|class=Stub|importance=Low}}
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{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes|class=Stub|sports-work-group=yes|listas=McRae, Frank|filmbio-work-group=yes}}
{{WikiProject National Football League|class=Stub}}
{{WikiProject College football|class=Stub|auto=inherit}}
|blp=no}}

== Date of birth ==
As per [[WP:DOB]] (a section of the [[WP:BLP]] policy) I have removed the uncited exact date of birth from the article. It should not be restored unless it is not only cited, but cited to a source or soures which make it clear that the date has been '''widely''' published, or else published with the subject's approval. The day and month of birth of a living person are of little encyclopedic value, while making them public can contribute to identity theft and other problems. The year suffices to place the subject in chronological context. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|(talk)]] 12:26, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

According to obituaries from Deadline and Varity, McRae was 80 years old. That rules 1944 out as a birth year. I have found another source that states 1942 as a birth year, which can't be correct either. To make things even worse, I also found a source that states both "1944" and "80 years old" at the same time, which is a mathematical impossibility! Could someone please find out when he was really born?! What is it with these actors/actresses and their birthdates/birthyears...?

https://deadline.com/2021/05/frank-mcrae-dies-actor-license-to-kill-last-action-hero-was-80-obituary-1234750695/

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/frank-mcrae-dead-actor-last-action-hero-1234967488/

https://www.aveleyman.com/ActorCredit.aspx?ActorID=11772

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/obituary-frank-mcrae-license-to-kill-last-action-hero

[[Special:Contributions/194.69.14.132|194.69.14.132]] ([[User talk:194.69.14.132|talk]]) 06:15, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

:According to [https://www.lematin.ch/story/frank-mcrae-mort-de-lacteur-vu-dans-james-bond-et-rocky-136833402706 ''Le Matin''], McRae was 77 years old. — [[User:Vincent Lefèvre|Vincent Lefèvre]] ([[User talk:Vincent Lefèvre|talk]]) 16:25, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

== Date of Death ==

He was 80 years old according to sources so he cannot have been born in 1944.

Talk:Walter Olkewicz

2021-04-08T12:30:05Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Birth */ new section

{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=stub|a&e-work-group=yes|listas=Olkewicz, Walter}}

== Date of Birth ==

He was born on May 14, 1948 according to sources.

Talk:Calamity Jane (1953 film)

2021-03-10T18:48:46Z

209.122.216.158: /* Oscars */ new section

{{Film|American-task-force=yes|class=start}}
==Separate "Album" entry??==

This article has a separate article for the "album" because several tracks on the latter were not taken direct from the sound track itself. Might one suggest that this is VERY often the case - and that if we were to be consistent many (if not most) film sound track albums would be separate from primary article for the movie itself!!!!!

On the other hand someone might like to do an article on the stage musical.

[[User:Soundofmusicals|Soundofmusicals]] 22:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

== Lesbian Undertones ==

This section doesn't cite any sources and appears more like original research. Words like 'butchiness' and 'Scarlet Woman' don't seem to fit the tone required for Wikipedia. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Calindreams|Calindreams]] ([[User talk:Calindreams|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Calindreams|contribs]]) 11:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC) 

Agreed. The fact that it remains in a LGBT-Related Films category is very odd, as well as unsupported —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.108.196.190|98.108.196.190]] ([[User talk:98.108.196.190|talk]]) 04:54, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 

:I've removed the category. Happy for it to be restored if anyone can supply any [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. '''[[User:Lugnuts|Lugnuts]]''' ([[User talk:Lugnuts|talk]]) 13:42, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

::What "reliable sources" are you talking about? You just have to watch the movie and see for yourself... You don't need a "reliable source" to know if it's raining or sunny outside... It's obvious this movie is LGBT-Related. Only someone very very naïf would deny it... - [[User:Ana Bruta|Ana Bruta]] ([[User talk:Ana Bruta|talk]]) 17:54, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

::I've seen this film several times, and just watched the handsome Blu-ray transfer. ''Calamity Jane'' is loaded with gay references, including gender confusion and cross-dressing. The "crypto-lesbian subtext" is as plain as the tail on a puppy. Whether these things were intentional is beside the point -- ''they're there''. They're not the product of an overactive imagination. They're obvious precisely because such references ''don't'' appear in the overwhelming majority of films. If you want a reference, note the mention in the film ''[[The Celluloid Closet]]''. [[User:WilliamSommerwerck|WilliamSommerwerck]] ([[User talk:WilliamSommerwerck|talk]]) 03:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The original 2008 section wasn't sourced at all. I've written one fresh from a couple of sources, and added the category back. --[[User:Lord Belbury|Lord Belbury]] ([[User talk:Lord Belbury|talk]]) 18:55, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

== Similarities to "Annie Get Your Gun" ==

Is there any way to reference the obvious similarities of "Calamity Jane" to "Annie Get Your Gun"? Both movies deal with historical women, characterizing them as rather boisterous and depicting their aptitude for handling firearms as a threat to their male counterparts. Both storylines require the women to transform into the appearance favored by the male lead, in order to get accepted as a spouse. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/176.6.4.218|176.6.4.218]] ([[User talk:176.6.4.218|talk]]) 19:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC) 

== A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* [[commons:File:Doris Day 1953 Calamity Jane.JPG|Doris Day 1953 Calamity Jane.JPG]]
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 23:51, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

== Oscars ==

The film won an Oscar for the song "Secret Love."

Talk:Juan Pizarro (baseball)

2021-02-22T19:46:48Z

209.122.216.158: /* Death Report */ new section

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== Death Report ==

Mention his death on his page

Talk:Robert C. Jones

2021-02-07T04:25:16Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

{{WikiProject Biography
|living=no
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{| class="messagebox standard-talk"
|-
|[[Image:Filmreel.png|30px| ]]
| This article is about a [[film editor]]. For more information about film editor articles, see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Actors_and_Filmmakers#Film_editors|this section]] of the Actors and Filmmakers WikiProject homepage.
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== 1936 or 1937-which one is right? ==
Okay so I notice he has TWO different birth years listed on this page. Due to how common the name Robert Jones is, this will be hard to find which is right. So what year is correct? [[User:Wgolf|Wgolf]] ([[User talk:Wgolf|talk]]) 23:49, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
:I checked the link. It gives 1936. Not sure where 1937 came from. [[User:Easchiff|Easchiff]] ([[User talk:Easchiff|talk]]) 21:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

== Date of Death ==

He died on Monday February 1, 2001 according to THR.

Talk:Joe Louis Clark

2020-12-30T16:16:57Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death II */ new section

{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=Start|listas=Clark, Joe Louis}}
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==Untitled==
I don't know much about Joe Louis Clark other than the film "Lean On Me" starring Morgan Freeman as Joe Louis Clark. It would be nice to know more about Joe Louis Clark. The way the article is written now it doesn't contain much information at all about Joe Louis Clark. [[User:Qewr4231|Qewr4231]] ([[User talk:Qewr4231|talk]]) 23:12, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

From Mr. Clark's webpage:
"He then went on to get his B.A. from William Paterson College and a Master's Degree from Seton Hall University."
Does mention attending or graduating from Rutgers. Could this be an error in the wiki entry? [[User:76.21.129.39|76.21.129.39]]

Libelous content... It's amazing that calling someone an anti-semite without references can pass through the Wiki content for two years. Someone can add that content but needs a reference. I deleted the whole section as none of it really has any references. [[User:Jponline77|Jponline77]] ([[User talk:Jponline77|talk]]) 04:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

== Eastside High's performance scores 17 years later ==

I've removed the following reference in the article to Eastside High's performance scores in 2008. I don't see how the school's poor test scores 17 years after Clark's departure can add anything to his bio. That is nearly a generation and who knows how many other principals and teachers later. Unless a reference for the scores from the 1991 school year can be found, or a source can be found that claims the current poor performance is in some way due to Clark's methods, I think it's enough to say that the scores did not improve enough to avoid the state takeover, and leave it at that. I've pasted the ref below in case someone disagrees.

as of 2008, Eastside High ranked 311 of New Jersey's 316 high schools, and was among the schools taken over by the state one year after Clark's departure in 1991. [http://njmonthly.com/articles/towns_and_schools/highschoolrankings/top-new-jersey-high-schools-by-rank.html "Top New Jersey High Schools 2008: By Rank"], ''[[New Jersey Monthly]]'', September 2008, posted August 7, 2008. Accessed August 19, 2008. [[Special:Contributions/76.93.232.16|76.93.232.16]] ([[User talk:76.93.232.16|talk]]) 06:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

== Joe Clark Nowadays ==

I do know Mr. Clark currently resides outside of Gainesville, Fl. I see him around town every once in a while, and he holds speaking engagements around the area on occassion. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.171.22.203|70.171.22.203]] ([[User talk:70.171.22.203|talk]]) 13:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC) 

== Joe Clark? ==

I feel that there could be more information about Joe Clark himself in this article. I have found several reputable sources regarding Joe Clark, especially about his role as a principal. He was a topic in Johnathan Kozol's book, The Shame of the Nation, and his distinct habit of carrying around a bullhorn and a baseball bat with him at Eastside High School could be relevant. In fact he was featured in Time Magazine with his signature baseball bat during the 1908s while he was principal. Also I would like to include the years that he was the principal of Eastside, 1982-1988. He was formerly and Army Drill Sergeant. Afterwards, he became a director of a juvenile detention facility in 1990. Test scores did increase slightly during his tenure. He expelled 300 students whom he referred to in interviews as "parasites" and "leeches". I feel this would give the reader more information about Joe Clark himself. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:GVelasco1|GVelasco1]] ([[User talk:GVelasco1#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/GVelasco1|contribs]]) 22:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC) 

There isn't enough information about Joe Louis Clark in this article. I feel that there is a lot of sensationalism from the movie Lean On Me. I know very little about Joe Louis Clark other than the movie Lean On Me. I would like to know more about his educational philosophies and policies; what worked and what did not. If Joe Louis Clark is the great educator that Morgan Freeman portrayed in Lean On Me, then talk about what Joe Louis Clark did to spark a movie to be made about him as an educator. Talk about how the schools he worked at improved. Talk about how the students' lives were changed for the better. Talk more about test scores and grades. Talk more about school programs. Talk about how students went on to succeed after being in Louis' programs. I want to hear more about that than "You can call me batman." — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:4260:35D0:1175:5B1F:B975:EDEA|2600:1700:4260:35D0:1175:5B1F:B975:EDEA]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:4260:35D0:1175:5B1F:B975:EDEA#top|talk]]) 05:35, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 

== Date of Birth ==

His birthday was on May 8, 1938 according to sources. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/209.122.216.158|209.122.216.158]] ([[User talk:209.122.216.158#top|talk]]) 03:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC) 

== Date of Death II ==

His birthdate was on May 8, 1938, please correct that birthdate.

Talk:Joe Louis Clark

2020-12-30T03:46:13Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Birth */ new section

{{WikiProject Biography
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==Untitled==
I don't know much about Joe Louis Clark other than the film "Lean On Me" starring Morgan Freeman as Joe Louis Clark. It would be nice to know more about Joe Louis Clark. The way the article is written now it doesn't contain much information at all about Joe Louis Clark. [[User:Qewr4231|Qewr4231]] ([[User talk:Qewr4231|talk]]) 23:12, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

From Mr. Clark's webpage:
"He then went on to get his B.A. from William Paterson College and a Master's Degree from Seton Hall University."
Does mention attending or graduating from Rutgers. Could this be an error in the wiki entry? [[User:76.21.129.39|76.21.129.39]]

Libelous content... It's amazing that calling someone an anti-semite without references can pass through the Wiki content for two years. Someone can add that content but needs a reference. I deleted the whole section as none of it really has any references. [[User:Jponline77|Jponline77]] ([[User talk:Jponline77|talk]]) 04:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

== Eastside High's performance scores 17 years later ==

I've removed the following reference in the article to Eastside High's performance scores in 2008. I don't see how the school's poor test scores 17 years after Clark's departure can add anything to his bio. That is nearly a generation and who knows how many other principals and teachers later. Unless a reference for the scores from the 1991 school year can be found, or a source can be found that claims the current poor performance is in some way due to Clark's methods, I think it's enough to say that the scores did not improve enough to avoid the state takeover, and leave it at that. I've pasted the ref below in case someone disagrees.

as of 2008, Eastside High ranked 311 of New Jersey's 316 high schools, and was among the schools taken over by the state one year after Clark's departure in 1991. [http://njmonthly.com/articles/towns_and_schools/highschoolrankings/top-new-jersey-high-schools-by-rank.html "Top New Jersey High Schools 2008: By Rank"], ''[[New Jersey Monthly]]'', September 2008, posted August 7, 2008. Accessed August 19, 2008. [[Special:Contributions/76.93.232.16|76.93.232.16]] ([[User talk:76.93.232.16|talk]]) 06:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

== Joe Clark Nowadays ==

I do know Mr. Clark currently resides outside of Gainesville, Fl. I see him around town every once in a while, and he holds speaking engagements around the area on occassion. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.171.22.203|70.171.22.203]] ([[User talk:70.171.22.203|talk]]) 13:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC) 

== Joe Clark? ==

I feel that there could be more information about Joe Clark himself in this article. I have found several reputable sources regarding Joe Clark, especially about his role as a principal. He was a topic in Johnathan Kozol's book, The Shame of the Nation, and his distinct habit of carrying around a bullhorn and a baseball bat with him at Eastside High School could be relevant. In fact he was featured in Time Magazine with his signature baseball bat during the 1908s while he was principal. Also I would like to include the years that he was the principal of Eastside, 1982-1988. He was formerly and Army Drill Sergeant. Afterwards, he became a director of a juvenile detention facility in 1990. Test scores did increase slightly during his tenure. He expelled 300 students whom he referred to in interviews as "parasites" and "leeches". I feel this would give the reader more information about Joe Clark himself. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:GVelasco1|GVelasco1]] ([[User talk:GVelasco1#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/GVelasco1|contribs]]) 22:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC) 

There isn't enough information about Joe Louis Clark in this article. I feel that there is a lot of sensationalism from the movie Lean On Me. I know very little about Joe Louis Clark other than the movie Lean On Me. I would like to know more about his educational philosophies and policies; what worked and what did not. If Joe Louis Clark is the great educator that Morgan Freeman portrayed in Lean On Me, then talk about what Joe Louis Clark did to spark a movie to be made about him as an educator. Talk about how the schools he worked at improved. Talk about how the students' lives were changed for the better. Talk more about test scores and grades. Talk more about school programs. Talk about how students went on to succeed after being in Louis' programs. I want to hear more about that than "You can call me batman." — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:4260:35D0:1175:5B1F:B975:EDEA|2600:1700:4260:35D0:1175:5B1F:B975:EDEA]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:4260:35D0:1175:5B1F:B975:EDEA#top|talk]]) 05:35, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 

== Date of Birth ==

His birthday was on May 8, 1938 according to sources.

Talk:Ray Perkins

2020-12-10T13:47:56Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Birth */ new section

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== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on [[Ray Perkins]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/817821323|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140103042229/http://www.jcjcathletics.com/news_article.php?newsID=933 to http://www.jcjcathletics.com/news_article.php?newsID=933

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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''InternetArchiveBot''']] ([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]]) 20:07, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

== Date of Birth ==

He was born on December 6, 1941 according to sources, the New York Times incorrectly stated his DOB as November 6.

Talk:Leon Janney

2020-12-08T16:26:30Z

209.122.216.158: /* Charly */ new section

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== Charly ==

That was Claire Bloom that was in Charly, not Dina Merrill.

Talk:Jim Hanifan

2020-11-26T12:11:56Z

209.122.216.158: /* Date of Death */ new section

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== Date of Death ==

He died on Tuesday, November 24, 2020 according to his daughter.

Talk:Diner (1982 film)

2020-11-23T02:34:08Z

209.122.216.158: /* Plot */ new section

{{Film|class=Start|American-task-force=yes}}

==Fair use rationale for Image:DinerDVD.jpg==
[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|70px|left]]
'''[[:Image:DinerDVD.jpg]]''' is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]] but there is no [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline|explanation or rationale]] as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Fair use|boilerplate fair use template]], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with [[WP:FU|fair use]].

Please go to [[:Image:DinerDVD.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to include a [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline |fair use rationale]]. Using one of the templates at [[Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline]] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Images.2FMedia|criteria for speedy deletion]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] 02:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

== Detailed plot summary ==

A user added a detailed plot summary yesterday from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diner_%28film%29&diff=prev&oldid=196383379 here], a version dug up from 2008. It was removed. That 2008 content was the only edit the original creator ever made, so could be a copyvio, but I can't find it.

The user feels that the detailed plot summary is better than what is in the article now. Thoughts?

The posts that led me here:
*[[User talk:Housewifehader#Diner (film)]]
*[[User talk:Anna Frodesiak#Diner (film)]]

[[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 00:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
:It's a copyvio whether or not it was lifted from somewhere else, because it's too just detailed. Fair use allows summarization and description, but when you get to the level of detail of that enormous hunk of material, you start infringing on the rights of the copyright holder to make derivative works. Add to that that such a long plot summary unbalances the article, and it's just not going to fly. Someone can restore it if they like, but I guarantee another editor will come along to remove it on the same grounds that I did -- it just might take a while until someone notices.Anyway, we have a bunch of guidelines which cover this: [[WP:PLOT]], [[WP:Manual of Style (writing_about_fiction)#Plot summaries]] and [[WP:JUSTPLOT]] is helpful as well. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:12, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
::I agree. I've never seen a user prepare content like that and add it as a single edit, and never edit again. But so far, we can't prove it's a copyvio. As for adding to the article, I agree with you there too. [[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 03:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

::::Well one big problem as far as finding plot info. on this particular story is that this film was not adapted from a novel. Parts of the dialogue were even improvised-so the film itself is the primary reference and contains the plot, unlike an adaptation where it would be a lot easier to find summaries. Since the film is pretty fresh in my mind, I will say that what I re-posted was not a scene-by-scene derivative work, like many other plot synopsis I have seen on WP, it seemed to be trying to organize some of the key moments in the story on a day-by-day basis. -But there were many scenes left-out. It could use some work, unfortunately on WP, I wouldn't be surprised if many editors took that to mean that they needed to ADD the parts that are not included lol. I have been studying the MOS as it applies to writing film plots, and I think that there are a couple of things that need to be considered. Most importantly is that this film was an Oscar nominee, and won some notable awards, so I think that it's reason for having an article beyond a stub or so is established. Also, I checked the page views--what I would consider "a lot" and consistently "a lot". Personally, I would never want to write what I would consider a derivative plot summary, and I would grudgingly also consider that summary derivative, but I also consider the bulk of the plot sections that I read on WP as derivative in the strictest sense. And compared to the majority of plots that I have read on WP, this one in my opinion is not "as"-derivative/infringing as most of them. Maybe I've been looking at a lot of film plots that are public domain, since I look up a lot of older films ('30s era) ???? I don't know. But I do know that when I look-up an extensively detailed plot I usually get a lot out of it as a WP user and reader, especially if I have missed a part of the film or if I have literally, "lost the plot" while watching a movie. Plots are very useful to readers and I have never read one that caused me to not watch a movie or stop watching one. Sometimes being lost while watching a movie is enough to make me want to stop watching but a detailed WP plot usually can help me to get on track. I guess what I am saying is that although I can't abide copyright violations, I just don't feel like the copyright holder gets anything but a "win" as far as detailed plot summaries are concerned here. And as far as Diner is concerned, the film's timeline was pretty choppy so I really appreciated the clues that were in the missing summary.[[User:Housewifehader|Housewifehader]] ([[User talk:Housewifehader|talk]]) 08:51, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::Intriguing thread here and on your individual Talk pages. Thanks to you all!  –  – [[User:Gareth Griffith-Jones|Gareth Griffith-Jones]] |[[User talk:Gareth Griffith-Jones|The Welsh Buzzard]]|— 14:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

(See correction yes i am confused sorry)[[User:Housewifehader|Housewifehader]] ([[User talk:Housewifehader|talk]]) 16:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)Just for the record, I have a completely different way of looking at things and comprehension than the editor who deleted the plot summary here.(not a bad thing because WP has many different people looking at it). That editor and myself have been going back and forth over another film article [[The Secret in Their Eyes]] which by the way has an extensively detailed plot, (and I would say for a good reason the film is in Spanish with sub-titles, and a confusing plot)----In that case, maybe it was stupid of myself not to get what was being said in the lede, but as a reader, I did not understand what was being said because of the way it was edited. 
But even in this film's instance. I noticed that their ideas about what "derivative'-works means is different from what I think of when applying it to editing cautions. Also, I wasn't sure exactly what the complaint is here. Throwing, "That plot is TOO descriptive-could violate ©", well, I think that [[The Secret in Their Eyes]] is a perfect example of another film entry here that is detailed, so I don't appreciate the mixed-message. And i also don't like to delve into Wiki-lawyering. How is it "wrong" possible © VIO for one film article, but on the "rest" of WP, it is not? I really wish that the objectors would have just said what it was that they did not like about the edit. 
Possibly was it that the summary was written in "non-encyclopedic" tone? Yes it was a little different that many plots here, and first-person was used. When I found it, although I did notice those things which could be objections, I weighed that against a reader not having the detailed plot info. that so many readers expect. 
And it was my hope that if an editor objected that they would fix the things that they did not like, but leave the plot-clues intact. If I had not now had the deleting editor make changes on two film articles that I have edited, I would not be thinking that a double-standard is being applied here on Diner. If that editor had blanked the entire (what I see as "derivative" but that is just how i see it), plot of [[The Secret in Their Eyes]]----I would not be wondering about that. I can try to fix the deleted Diner plot and repost it, but I will need some better suggestions about exactly what is "wrong" with it instead of a wholesale blanking please.[[User:Housewifehader|Housewifehader]] ([[User talk:Housewifehader|talk]]) 16:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
CORRECTION--it is not the same editor! sorry about that but the two film plots describe my problem. Sorry i got them mixed-up, it happens[[User:Housewifehader|Housewifehader]] ([[User talk:Housewifehader|talk]]) 16:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

This is sad and disappointing. Instead of taking an overly long plot section and '''summarizing''' it -- thereby solving both the length and slight possibility of entirely unproven copyvio -- editors thought reverting to an incomplete plot section was the better thing to do. -- [[Special:Contributions/109.76.203.83|109.76.203.83]] ([[User talk:109.76.203.83|talk]]) 03:06, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

== it's redundant to mention it's a film ==

All film articles have the film title in the article title, so the redundancy is expected, while only some film articles say in the title that it's a film. The cases are not the same and it's common sense that it doesn't need to be mentioned twice. The guidelines wouldn't mention this exception because the editors are expected to know that the guidelines are not rules but just a guide. Similarly, it is permitted to mention that a work is a film in the second sentence, too. It's just a guideline. --[[User:Ring Cinema|Ring Cinema]] ([[User talk:Ring Cinema|talk]]) 15:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

:I believe that "drama", "comedy" and "thriller" stand up on their own as descriptive nouns. The word "film" invariably '''soon''' follows in the text on its own.  –  – [[User:Gareth Griffith-Jones|Gareth Griffith-Jones]] |[[User talk:Gareth Griffith-Jones|The Welsh Buzzard]]|— 15:11, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

:(ec) @RingCinema: You are incorrect that "all articles have the film title in the article title", as that is the case only for those that need disambiguation from another article, such as the one for the source material for the film (book, play, etc.) As for redundancy, it doesn't enter into it: the film's title is redundant (it's '''''always''''' in the article title, and the release year of the film is redundant when the year appears as a disambiguation term, but that's all irrelevant. As explicated in [[WP:LEAD]]: <blockquote>'''The lead section ... serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects. ... The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.'''</blockquote> By definition, the lede, and especially the lede sentence, should provide a concise overview of the most important aspects of the subject matter, and it cannot be denied that being a '''''film''''' is one of the very most basic aspects of every movie, therefore it must be mentioned in the lede. Leaving it out because it appears in the title of the article just doesn't make much sense, and doesn't serve our readers well. If '''''anyone''''' can point to a general consensus discussion that allows this practice, I will, of course, acquiesce, but in the meantime, absent that, removing "film" from the lede seems to me to be unhelpful and pedantic. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 15:20, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
::Also, please read [[WP:BRD]], your "Bold" edit was "Reverted" by me, so the next step (this one) is "Discussion", '''''not''''' continued reversion. The article stays in the ''status quo ante'' until a consensus has been reached. Please do not revert again. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 15:20, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
:::I've posted a neutral pointer to this discussion on [[WT:FILM]]. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 15:31, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
::::I can understand what Ring Cinema is saying. To use another example, the term "psychological thriller film" is a mouthful when "psychological thriller" suffices, particularly when the context is easily discerned. (I researched the topic a while ago and noticed the three-word term not being common.) The fact that this article is disambiguated with the term "(film)" makes the context more obvious. I don't have strong feelings for either approach, though. What about using the term "film" in the second sentence? For example, "''Diner'' is a 1982 comedy-drama written and directed by Barry Levinson. The film is Levinson's screen directing debut and the first of his four 'Baltimore films'..." EDIT: I see that Ring Cinema suggested mentioning "film" in the second sentence too. I'm fine with that approach. [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contribs]]) 16:02, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::Hi Erik, long time no see. I would find your compromise acceptable. I'd prefer that "film" bein the lede sentence, but at the beginning of the second sentence of the lede would be OK. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 18:54, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
:[[WP:OBVIOUS]]. State it. '''[[User:Lugnuts|Lugnuts]]''' [[User talk:Lugnuts|Dick Laurent is dead]] 16:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
::Yeah, just taking a general view, the medium is an important detail to include, and I see a lot of this on articles where a disambiguator doesn't come to the rescue. As for being redundant, the entire lead is technically redundant (or supposed to be), although I suspect Ring's real objection here is not so much the redundancy but rather it doesn't quite flow as a conventional language description. I think rejigging the sentence in line with Erik's suggestion is a workable compromise. [[User:Betty Logan|Betty Logan]] ([[User talk:Betty Logan|talk]]) 22:57, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Erik's suggestion is good, Betty's point is also true. Only on Wikipedia is reference made to a "thriller film" or a "Western film". Normally, it's understood that readers will get the medium from the context. Some things actually are too obvious to mention. Which articles are about films is usually too obvious but not always. Second sentence is a great place to reinforce the idea if someone seriously has a question about it and it doesn't torture the language. --[[User:Ring Cinema|Ring Cinema]] ([[User talk:Ring Cinema|talk]]) 01:46, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
::::It would appear that we are in agreement. I have made the revision as detailed above.  –  – [[User:Gareth Griffith-Jones|Gareth Griffith-Jones]] |[[User talk:Gareth Griffith-Jones|The Welsh Buzzard]]|— 10:15, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

::::: I see I have come late to the party and a consensus seems to have been reached, but let me offer a dissenting view for what it's worth. The basic form for the first sentence of the article should be "X is a Y", where X is the name of the work and Y is the kind of work it is. So "Diner is a film" is the bare-boned version of the first sentence. Adding the year, nationality, type of film, and who wrote and directed it are all fine, but they are extras in the first sentence. The name and type of work are essentials. To say that the word "film" is redundant because it appears in the name of the article makes as much sense as saying that "Diner" is redundant in the first sentence because it, too, is in the title, so the first sentence could start with the pronoun "It".

::::: If you look at other articles of significant works in other fields, you will see no fear of redundancy. The opening sentence for [[Ulysses (novel)]] begins "Ulysses is a novel...." For the article [[Help! (song)]] the first sentence starts "'Help!' is a song...." For the article [[M*A*S*H (TV series)]] the first sentence starts "M*A*S*H is an American television series...." So if the clause "Diner is a 1982 American comedy-drama film" is thought to be too much of a mouthful (although I don't think it is), remove the year, nationality, or genre and mention them in subsequent sentences. But not the word "film". It's the most basic and essential piece of information and so should be in the first sentence. [[Special:Contributions/99.192.52.199|99.192.52.199]] ([[User talk:99.192.52.199|talk]]) 02:56, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

::::::I thought about that argument and agree it has some validity, but I rejected it for two reasons. First, there is no other reasonable subject for the first sentence. Repeating that an article that says it's about a film is about a film seems like the definition of redundancy (per The Department of Redundancy Department). Secondly, if the first sentence said "Diner is a film, etc.," the language wouldn't be tortured to accommodate a dubious guideline and I'd have no problem with it. So if the genre were moved to the second sentence, that, too would be good style. --[[User:Ring Cinema|Ring Cinema]] ([[User talk:Ring Cinema|talk]]) 14:46, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

:And yet ''[[Barton Fink]]'' states "Barton Fink is a 1991 American satirical black comedy film written, directed, and produced by the Coen brothers". It's a Featured Article. And it's on today's Front Page too. '''[[User:Lugnuts|Lugnuts]]''' [[User talk:Lugnuts|Dick Laurent is dead]] 06:43, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
::I notice that particular bit has been copy-edited for the [[Main Page]]... I think we should take a closer look at these opening sentences. It doesn't reflect well on the Film project when we have a featured article on the front page that mangles the English language in the very first sentence. [[User:Betty Logan|Betty Logan]] ([[User talk:Betty Logan|talk]]) 07:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
::: Betty, there is nothing "mangled" about the language of that sentence. It is well-formed and very economical in reporting all the information it contains. I would suggest that the alternative of putting each fact in a separate sentence is far, far worse: "Barton Fink is a 1991 film. It is American. It is satirical. It is a black comedy. It was written, directed, and produced by the Coen brothers." Multiple or complex descriptions in a single sentence are not problematic. For example, "The suspect is 6'3", white, medium build, in his mid 30s, and wearing a red shirt and blue jeans." But even if you thought that there were too many descriptors for one sentence in the ''Barton Fink'' intro, the solution is certainly not to remove the word "film" from the sentence, as has been the subject of discussion here about ''Diner''. In fact, if the sentence is ''really'' thought to be too complex then just about anything ''but'' the word "film" should be moved to a subsequent sentence. But the sentence is perfectly fine as is. There is nothing "mangled" about it. [[Special:Contributions/99.192.65.245|99.192.65.245]] ([[User talk:99.192.65.245|talk]]) 13:04, 13 August 2013 (UTC) (=99.192.52.199)
::::What I'm saying is that people don't really talk like that: while you may refer to a "horror film" or an "action film" or "science-fiction film", people don't tend to say "comedy film", or "drama film" or "thriller film", so it doesn't really read well when we utilise the written word in a way people don't speak. There is no reason to go from one extreme to the other either. That opening paragraph can be more naturally written as something like "''Barton Fink is an American film released in 1991. It is a satirical black comedy set in 1941 written, directed, and produced by the Coen brothers. It stars John Turturro in the title role as a young New York City playwright who is hired to write scripts for a film studio in Hollywood, and John Goodman as Charlie, the insurance salesman who lives next door at the run-down Hotel Earle.''" You get all the same information just over two sentences, but phrased more conventionally. Anyway, Barton Fink isn't really relevant to this article, I'm just illustrating a point. [[User:Betty Logan|Betty Logan]] ([[User talk:Betty Logan|talk]]) 18:55, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

::::: Betty, If you google the phrases "comedy film" and "drama film" you will find they are far more commonly used terms than you might think. Having said that, your suggested rewrite for ''Barton Fink'' looks fine to me. And it is actually relevant to this article (or this discussion of the article) because your suggested fix did exactly what I suggested: Leave the word "film" in the opening sentence and move some descriptions of the film to a subsequent sentence. So following your example as a model, the opening for this article could read: "'''Diner is an American film released in 1982. Written and directed by Barry Levinson, the comedy-drama is Levinson's screen directing debut, and the first of his four "Baltimore films", which include the subsequent Tin Men (1987), Avalon (1990) and Liberty Heights (1999).'''" This would allow the first sentence to report the most important piece of information: That ''Diner'' is a film. [[Special:Contributions/99.192.92.64|99.192.92.64]] ([[User talk:99.192.92.64|talk]]) 01:08, 14 August 2013 (UTC) (=99.192.52.199)

::::::I don't think Betty was referring to these phrases. To better define the matter, I think it has to do with descriptors that are both adjectives and nouns. For ''Barton Fink'', "black comedy film" is a mouthful because we can call it a black comedy, full stop. One cannot do that with "science fiction" or "body horror". I would say that "comedy" and "thriller" are the two terms that can also be treated as nouns also. For example, "screwball comedy" and "psychological thriller". To attach "film" to these makes the overall descriptor a bit convoluted. But per [[WP:OBVIOUS]], we want to make it clear in the first or second sentence that it is a film. A trickier setup would be "musical"; we would want to state "musical film" because otherwise "musical" by itself implies something not cinematic. [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contribs]]) 01:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

::::::: Erik, she used those phrases as her examples in her opening sentence, so it seems pretty clear that she was talking about them. But further, you cannot say "X is a drama" and it be clear just what X is. Is it a film, a play, a TV series, or a novel? All of those things can be dramas. The same is true for "X is a comedy." But my main point is that it is nearly universal for film articles (or TV series articles or song articles or novel articles or actor articles or band articles) to use the word "film (or "series" or "song" or "novel" or "actor" or "band") in the first sentence. So if something has to be pushed to a subsequent sentence, it should be the genre, not the basic identification of what the subject of the article is. [[Special:Contributions/99.192.92.64|99.192.92.64]] ([[User talk:99.192.92.64|talk]]) 02:22, 14 August 2013 (UTC) (=99.192.52.199)

{{od}}If it is nearly universal and it's bad, then it's nearly universally bad. The beginning of the problem is the unfortunate guideline suggesting that the genre and medium must be in the first sentence. What's the rush? I find it particularly ironic that we're discussing the matter in this context. Since it is obvious that No Country for Old Men (the film) is a film, it shows how unfortunately doctrinaire editors become about mere guidelines -- at the expense of minimally readable prose. Even a reasonable exception is pounced upon as the violation of an important principle. It's clumsy style unworthy of even a poor writer and not worth defending. --[[User:Ring Cinema|Ring Cinema]] ([[User talk:Ring Cinema|talk]]) 03:23, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I didn't read any of the above. I did read the beginning of the article lead. The word "film" is claringly, and annonyingly absent in the first sentence. There are mini-series and tv shows, etc. and despite "(film)" in the article title, the lede sentence really needs the word "film" to make it immediately clear.

Just my two cents. [[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 03:33, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

:Missed it by two words! --[[User:Ring Cinema|Ring Cinema]] ([[User talk:Ring Cinema|talk]]) 03:41, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

::Let me add that to me it makes more sense to cover the genre later. --[[User:Ring Cinema|Ring Cinema]] ([[User talk:Ring Cinema|talk]]) 03:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

:::Two words? And yes, fine, cover the genre in the second sentence. [[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 04:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

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== Plot ==

That was Modell who gave the heartfelt speech at the end of the film.

Talk:Mary Tyler Moore

2020-11-22T17:00:55Z

209.122.216.158: /* Where He/She was born */ new section

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==Question regarding article content==
I have no idea why this is significant:

''When she was eight years old, Moore's family moved to Los Angeles at the recommendation of Moore's uncle, an MCA employee.''

Its source is a 30-min video interview that's set to come in at 4 min & some change, where she discusses "Oh, Rob" on [[The Dick Van Dyke Show]], not moving to LA when she was 8. Why is her uncle's recommendation or where he worked deemed important? Can't it just say the Moore family moved, period? [[User:ScarletRibbons|ScarletRibbons]] ([[User talk:ScarletRibbons|talk]]) 05:32, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
:That her uncle was in the entertainment industry and suggested she move to the entertainment capital of the US seems pretty significant to me. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:34, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
::But she wasn't working in the entertainment industry as a child. [[User:ScarletRibbons|ScarletRibbons]] ([[User talk:ScarletRibbons|talk]]) 05:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Yeah, so? I think she eventually ended up in the entertainment industry, didn't she? I have a vague memory of her on TV -- a commercial maybe? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:38, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
::::Then we're going with her parents' psychic powers on this one? [[User:ScarletRibbons|ScarletRibbons]] ([[User talk:ScarletRibbons|talk]]) 05:46, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::I;m sorry, I must have missed where it said something about the uncle's psychic powers. Why don't you point to the statement that says that. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 17:29, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

== 1959 ==

Moore appeared as a Spanish girl in 1959. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.146.216.125|86.146.216.125]] ([[User talk:86.146.216.125#top|talk]]) 12:31, 1 June 2019 (UTC) 
:The impression is given in the article that Steve Canyon was in 1961. 1959 seems to be correct. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.146.216.125|86.146.216.125]] ([[User talk:86.146.216.125#top|talk]]) 12:33, 1 June 2019 (UTC) 

== Possible copyright problem ==
[[File:Copyright-problem.svg|left|50x50px|alt=|link=]] This article has been revised as part of [[WP:CCI|a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement]]. Earlier text must not be restored, ''unless'' it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept [[Wikipedia:Copyrights|copyrighted]] text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of ''information'', but not as a source of ''sentences'' or ''phrases''. Accordingly, the material ''may'' be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original ''or'' [[Wikipedia:Plagiarism|plagiarize]] from that source. Please see our [[Wikipedia:NFC#Text|guideline on non-free text]] for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. [[User:Money emoji |💵Money💵emoji💵]][[User talk:Money emoji|💸]] 21:15, 30 June 2019 (UTC) 

== This article contradicts [[WP:EL]] ==

{{U|Beyond My Ken}}, why do you think individual interviews should be included in the external links section? ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 01:33, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
:Those links have been in the article for ages, so it is rather '''''you''''' who needs to justify your BOLD edit to remove them. The fact that MTM has given many interviews in her lifetime is totally and completely irrelevant: the same can be said for '''''every''''' celebrity, so your interpretation of [[WP:EL]] would remove '''''every''''' link to an interview from '''''every''''' article about '''''every''''' celebrity. Unless there's something in some way wrong with those interviews -- i.e they're copyvios or BLP violations, they should stay where they are. You should not replace your personal judgment for the judgement of the Wikipedia community that put them there and has kept them there. Two million edits doesn't mean you have better judgment than the rest of us, it just means you know how to use semi-automated software. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 01:38, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, As you likely know, [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not a link directory]], so arbitrarily choosing two out of the hundreds of interviews she gave as links is a perfect argument for ''removing'' these links, not keeping them. Please also walk back all your weird personality-based arguments. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 02:01, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
:::In my experience, your judgment is very poor. And your argument here is extremely silly. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:04, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
::::{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, That's rude. You need to justify why these two links ''should'' remain. [[Is–ought distinction|Just because something has been that way for awhile does not mean things should be that way]]. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 04:48, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::No, I do not. Justify your BOLD edit, since [[WP:EL]] gives no justification for it. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Beyond My Ken|contribs]]) 
::::::Since Wikipedia isn't a link directory, each link needs to meet [[Wikipedia:External_links#What_to_link|these criteria]]. Which ones do these particular links meet? There's a lot of unsourced content on Wikipedia too: some of it's been here for a decade. It's not "BOLD" to remove it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 07:53, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::{{u|Beyond My Ken}} See above. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 03:07, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::::Wikipedia policies are -- every single one -- subject to interpretation according to specific circumstances. None of them is an algorithm in which you plug in some numbers and the answer pops up the other end. How a policy is to be interpreted in any particular situation is determined by a consensus discussion. This is an article talk page in which consensus discussions are held, including those about how policy relates to disputed edits. When you have a consensus from the editors here to make the disputed edit you want to make, you can make that edit. Until then, restoring that edit is, definitionally, disruptive editing.{{parabr}}At this time, you do not have a consensus, therefore, you cannot restore the edit, as you just did. If you do so again, I will have no recourse but to bring the issue to the administrators' board and get a ruling there on whether you are or are not being disruptive, as I believe you are. If you wish not to disrupt Wikipedia, you will not restore this edit without a consensus to do so. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 03:19, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, That in no way answers my question. Please answer my question. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 05:15, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::::::"I do not see how these two links turn the EL section into a 'link farm'" and "Get a consensus" are all the answers you're going to get from me. I'm not at all interested in debating this incredibly silly issue with you. Get a consensus. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 10:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, Per your request: [[Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard#Links_to_individual_articles_or_interviews]] ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 23:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
*So, you could not get consensus here on the article talk page for your edit, so you opened a thread at [[WP:ELN]], '''''without telling the only other editor involved in this discussion about the thread''''' (i.e. me), and then, after only a couple of days of discussion there, used the so-called "consensus" there to remove the links you wanted to remove. Only '''''then''''' did you tell me bout the other discussion. That is classic [[WP:Gaming the system]], and you should be ashamed of yourself. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:35, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
:*I have asked an admin to look into this. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:36, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
::*I also note that when you opened the discussion on ELN, '''''you did not even make reference to this consensus discussion''''', which makes opening that discussion [[WP:Forum shopping]]. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:40, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
:::*{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, Based on my reading above (tell me if I'm wrong), I thought you were saying, "I'm done discussing this" but now you are asking to be included in a conversation. Are you interested in discussing the validity of these links or not? ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 23:42, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
::::*That's pure B.S., Koavf, and you know it. You went there without telling me because you knew it would be advantageous to you to do so. It's so much easier to have a discussion without your opponent around, isn't it? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:45, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
::::*:{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, It is not BS. You said, "Get consensus for these external links, also I'm not discussing this anymore", therefore, I went to a noticeboard that is about finding consensus for external links. Please assume good faith. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 23:50, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::*No, there is no good faith to assume. You know full well that if consensus cannot be reached on the article talk page, then the discussion can be moved to another venue, but in that case everyone involved in the discussion needs to be informed, usually via a notice in the article talk page discussion, That's strictly standard procedure, and you know it, damn it. You deliberately didn't notify me so that you would have an open field without my opinion to counter yours. That's just totally shameful on your part, and you should be blocked for it.{{pb}}I have been involved with plenty of high energy disputatious discussions before, but in every single one of them, when the participants felt the need to take the discussion elsewhere, a notification of the new venue was dropped in the discussion. It has '''''never''''' happened to me before that an editor was so rude, so concerned about winning their stupid, trivial point that they did what you did. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:03, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::*:{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, That is not true. I also don't see anything in the instructions at [[Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard]] about notifying anyone but I have learned from experience several times that when someone says, "I'm not going to discuss this" that pinging that person just ends with more acrimony. I'm happy to have you discuss this, as I initiated this conversation. Again, please make your case and respond to comments at the noticeboard. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 00:09, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::::*Stop Wikilawyering, you did what you did, and what you did was very, very wrong. Stop trying to justify it. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:13, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
::::::::*:{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, I am merely correcting your incorrect statements. Please answer my question below. You are veering from speculative bad faith which is just inaccurate to outright lies. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 00:14, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::::*I am not lying. Stop pinging me, I know this discussion is here. And how dare post a comment on my talk page as if you are my friend trying to help me. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:17, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::::*:You explicitly solicited it. It's confounding: when you ask to be notified and you are, you get upset. When you say that you have no interest in discussing something, you are outraged when you aren't included in a discussion about it. And then you spread falsehoods about me: again, feel free to substantiate your claim below by answering the question I asked. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 02:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
:::*{{ping|Koavf}} There are <s>three</s> four new comments on this talk page which concern your behavior, and several on the thread you opened on ELN as well. In my opinion, your behavior has been unworthy of a Wikipedian with your years of service and number of edits, and displays [[WP:Battleground]] behavior: the desire to "win" at any cost. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:45, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
:::*:{{u|Beyond My Ken}}, Sorry, what? Which comments on the thread at ELN concern my behavior...? ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 23:51, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
{{od|:::::}} As I said at the noticeboard, ''"As for interviews, it depends on whether or not the interview is extensive enough to be a unique resource even if one tries their best to implement it into the article."'' It seems like the C-SPAN link has multiple interview videos that would be more in-depth. Since the NPR interview is singular, can it not be implemented more or less fully into the article body? The Television Academy one is interview #2 of 5, and it looks like the full set is viewable [https://interviews.televisionacademy.com/interviews/mary-tyler-moore#interview-clips here]. This seems like it can be a unique resource with its comprehensiveness. [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contrib]]) ([[Template:Reply to|ping me]]) 12:51, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
:*Erik: Would you then recommend replacing the Television Academy link currently in the EL with the link to the entire set of 5? That sounds like a good idea to me. And would you also say that the NPR link shouldn't be removed until it has been integrated into the article? That seems reasonable to me as well. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:01, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
::On a related note, maybe Beyond My Ken can '''explain''' why [[MOS:HEAD]] and esp. [[MOS:PSEUDOHEAD]] should not apply here following [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Tyler_Moore&type=revision&diff=968542684&oldid=968429210 this revert]? Do you have an issue with '''readers''' with disabilities? '''[[User:Lugnuts|Lugnuts]]''' [[User talk:Lugnuts|Fire Walk with Me]] 07:12, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

::{{ping|Beyond My Ken}} -I've asked on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABeyond_My_Ken&type=revision&diff=968610513&oldid=968590721 your talkpage]] on why you '''''continue''''' to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Tyler_Moore&type=revision&diff=968590337&oldid=968578779 edit-war] and not '''''discuss''''' this. Please '''''explain''''' here why you '''''think''''' [[MOS:HEAD]] and [[MOS:PSEUDOHEAD]] does not apply '''''before''''' continuing to '''''revert'''''. Thanks. '''[[User:Lugnuts|Lugnuts]]''' [[User talk:Lugnuts|Fire Walk with Me]] 12:32, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
:::{{reply|Lugnuts}} you are misreading [[MOS:PSEUDOHEAD]]. That clearly indicates that <code><nowiki>'''Pseudo-heading'''</nowiki></code> is '''acceptable'''; it's <code><nowiki>;Pseudo-heading</nowiki></code> that's incorrect. The MOS says "try to avoid using bold markup; in cases where {{t|TOC limit}} cannot be used because of lower-level headings elsewhere in the article, then using bold for the sub-sub-sub headings causes the least annoyance for screen reader users." My review of the recent edit history shows that this acceptable compromise has been used in the references section since at least the beginning of 2020, and as {{U|Beyond My Ken}} has reverted your bold change, I find that your change is the change that's been imposed by edit warring. You should get a consensus here that including "Bibliography" in the table of contents is the preferred of these two acceptable style choices. – [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 20:47, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
* I recommend that the Find a Grave link is removed, and I notice the ELN might mean there's already consensus for this. — [[User:Bilorv|Bilorv]] ('''[[User talk:Bilorv|talk]]''') 19:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

== Where He/She was born ==

She was born in Brooklyn, NY.

Talk:Bo Derek

2020-11-21T14:00:57Z

209.122.216.158: /* Age */ new section

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{{WikiProject California|class=Start|importance=low}}
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== Political Affiliation: ==

I was looking at Chuck guest stars, and was reading up on Bo Derek. Saw that she was listed as a Republican conservative, and decided to look this up on the web in general. I found [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByqeEQmEbGQ this] video of her taken on the 19th of January, 2012. She states at 1:02 in the video that "...I'm independent. People think...I'm Republican, I'm independent. So...I voted for Obama." [[User:Toni Goodman|Toni Goodman]] ([[User talk:Toni Goodman|talk]]) 03:15, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
:In fact, I just read the article suggesting that Bo Derek is a conservative Republican, and there's nothing in there about Ms. Derek's political affiliation. There's only a picture of hear labeling her as a "beard" to California Republican Representative David Dreier. I'd edit everything myself, but I'm new to this, and not sure how to site things properly. (I'm reading the Wikipedia page on citing now.) --[[User:Toni Goodman|Toni Goodman]] ([[User talk:Toni Goodman|talk]]) 03:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

== "Inappropriate" content ==

''The sexual nature of the film, along with substantial nude and inappropriate content, ''

What's "inappropriate" content? Inappropriate to what? This seems like a value judgment, inappropriate to Wikipedia. Consider the NPOV policy. [[User:Omc|Omc]] ([[User talk:Omc|talk]]) 04:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
:What film does that refer to in the article? Anyway I dont see anything wrong with it. [[User:Caden|'''Caden''']] [[User talk:Caden|'''cool''']] 00:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

== Cycle Magazine Cover (1972 or 1973) ==

[[Cycle (magazine)|Cycle Magazine]] was doing a photo session on the beach in 1972, I believe, and a walk-on volunteer was photographed with the new Honda 500 four-cylinder. This was Bo Derek at 15, and apparently a valid release was obtained because it became a cover photo <ref>http://forums.cycleworld.com/showthread.php?t=116180&page=407</ref>. There is another photo on the WWW, apparently from the same photo shoot, with another motorcycle new at the time, the infamous three-cylinder Kawaski 500 <ref>https://www.pinterest.com/pin/392939136211759915/</ref>. After her breakout movie "10" came out, Cycle had a one-page article noting the old cover. -motorfingers- 17:37, 21 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Motorfingers|Motorfingers]] ([[User talk:Motorfingers#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Motorfingers|contribs]]) 

{{reflist-talk}}

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified {{plural:3|one external link|3 external links}} on [[Bo Derek]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=747845631 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051221182800/http://larryflynt.com:80/notebook.php?id=88 to http://larryflynt.com/notebook.php?id=88
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080522084811/http://www.kennedy-center.org:80/states/state.cfm?state=CA to http://www.kennedy-center.org/states/state.cfm?state=CA
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140222162445/http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/biographies/bo-derek.html to http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/biographies/bo-derek.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).

{{sourcecheck|checked=true}} --[[User:Mirokado|Mirokado]] ([[User talk:Mirokado|talk]]) 21:34, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''InternetArchiveBot''']] ([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]]) 18:28, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

== Image of Bo ==

Not sure I understand how this works - basically, I posted an owned image of Bo and it was immediately taken down ass a copyright violation and yet anyone else seems to be able to insert one bad photo after the next of her. Understand this is supposed to be an unbiased site but why does one have to endure the way others wish to portray them. At least use an old classic photo of her that the vast majority of people looking for her here would recognize. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Malibum11|Malibum11]] ([[User talk:Malibum11#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Malibum11|contribs]]) 19:02, 24 March 2017 (UTC) 

== Age ==

She is now 61 years old as of 11-20-17. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.38.189.88|207.38.189.88]] ([[User talk:207.38.189.88#top|talk]]) 22:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC) 

:Check the article again after 23:59.59 (UTC). - [[User:FlightTime|'''FlightTime''']] ([[User talk:FlightTime|'''open channel''']]) 22:53, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

== Age ==

She is now 64 years old.