Wikipedia - User contributions [en]

User talk:Giorgos Tzimas

2010-04-20T19:28:57Z

3rdAlcove: /* Καθυστερημένα χαιρετίσματα. */ new section

:<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: black; ">[http://www.greekfontsociety.gr/GFS_GAZIS.zip | Greek fonts] to view the page properly</div>
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<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: white; ">Ο ΜΟΤΣΑΡΤ</div>
<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Ὁ Μότσαρτ μ᾿ ἕνα μαῦρο σκύλο τριγυρίζει τά
καμμένα σπίτια.
Ψάχνει κεῖ μέσα στὴν καφτὴ τέφρα καὶ τὴν καρβουνίλα.
Σὲ μερικὲς γωνιὲς δὲν ἔχουν ἀκόμη σβήσει οἱ φωτιές...-παράξενο -λέει- ΠΟΥΘΕΝΑ ΔΕΝ ΑΚΟΥΓΕΤΑΙ
ΠΙΑ Η ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ ΜΟΥ...
[[Miltos Sachtouris|Μίλτος Σαχτούρης]] (1919-2005)</div>

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: white; ">MOZART</div>
<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Mozart with a black dog by his side rambles among
the burnt houses.
He delves into hot ashes and
cinders
In some corners, pockets of fire are still burning...
-how strange -he mutters- MY MUSIC IS NOWHERE TO BE HEARD
ANYMORE...
[[Miltos Sachtouris|Miltos Sahtouris]] (1919-2005)</div>

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<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">"...We have often witnessed peoples, societies and nations outside the Western world – and I can identify with them easily – succumbing to fears that sometimes lead them to commit stupidities, all because of their fears of humiliation and their sensitivities. I also know that in the West – a world with which I can identify with the same ease – nations and peoples taking an excessive pride in their wealth, and in their having brought us the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and Modernism, have, from time to time, succumbed to a self-satisfaction that is almost as stupid."

excerpt from [[Orhan Pamuk]]'s ''Nobel lecture''</div>

[[Image:Page ruler.png|240px|center]]

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">"Δύο ποιοῦ καιροὺς τοῦ λέγειν, ἢ περὶ ὧν οἷσθα σαφῶς, ἢ περὶ ὧν ἀναγκαῖον εἰπεῖν. Ἐν τούτοις γὰρ μόνοις ὀ λόγος τῆς σιγῆς κρείττων, ἐν δὲ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἄμεινον σιγᾶν ἢ λέγειν."</div>

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Let there be but two occasions for speech --when the subject is one which you thoroughly know and when it is one on which you are compelled to speak. On these occasions alone is speech better than silence; on all others, it is better to be silent than to speak.

[[Isocrates]] ''Ad Demonicum'', 1.42.5
[[Image:Leaf outline.png|70px|center]]

</div>}}

:You can also find me here [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_utilisateur:Giorgos_Tzimas]

[[File:Smallhoneycake.JPG|thumb|Καλές γιορτές με γεμάτες μπαταρίες το 2010! και μερικά κιλά επιπλέον.]]

== Καθυστερημένα χαιρετίσματα. ==

Ελπίζω να είχατε, εσύ και η οικογένεια σου, καλά Χριστούγεννα, καλή Πρωτοχρονιά και καλή Ανάσταση και γενικά να περνάτε όμορφα. Καθυστερημένοι χαιρετισμοί! [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 19:28, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Apollo

2009-06-22T18:58:04Z

3rdAlcove:

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{{Infobox Greek deity|
| Image = Apollo ny carlsberg glyptotek.jpg
| Caption = 2nd century AD Roman statue of Apollo depicting the god's attributes—the lyre and the snake [[Python (mythology)|Python]]
| Name = Apollo
| God_of = '''God of music, poetry and oracles'''
| Abode =
| Symbol =
| Consort =
| Parents = [[Zeus]] and [[Leto]]
| Siblings= [[Artemis]]
| Children= [[Asclepius]], [[Troilus]], [[Aristaeus]]
| Mount =
| Roman_equivalent = Apollo
}}
{{Ancient Greek religion}}
{{Ancient Roman religion}}

In [[Greek mythology|Greek]] and [[Roman mythology]], '''Apollo''' (in [[Ancient Greek|Greek]], ''Ἀπόλλων''—''Apóllōn'' or ''Ἀπέλλων''—''Apellōn''), is one of the most important and many-sided of the [[Twelve Olympians|Olympian deities]]. The ideal of the ''[[kouros]]'' (a beardless youth), Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun; truth and prophecy; [[archery]]; medicine and healing; music, poetry, and the arts; and more. Apollo is the son of [[Zeus]] and [[Leto]], and has a [[twins|twin]] sister, the chaste huntress [[Artemis]]. Apollo is known in Greek-influenced [[Etruscan mythology]] as ''Apulu''. Apollo was worshipped in both [[Ancient Greek religion|ancient Greek]] and [[Ancient Roman religion|Roman religion]], as well as in the modern [[Hellenic neopaganism]].

As the patron of [[Delphi]] (''Pythian Apollo''), Apollo was an [[oracular]] god — the prophetic deity of the [[Pythia|Delphic Oracle]]. Medicine and healing were associated with Apollo, whether through the god himself or mediated through his son [[Asclepius]]. Apollo was also seen as a god who could bring ill-health and deadly [[Plague (disease)|plague]] as well as one who had the ability to cure. Amongst the god's custodial charges, Apollo became associated with dominion over [[Colonies in antiquity|colonists]], and as the patron defender of herds and flocks. As the leader of the [[Muse]]s (''Apollon Musagetes'') and director of their choir, Apollo functioned as the patron god of music and [[poetry]]. [[Hermes]] created the [[lyre]] for him, and the instrument became a common [[Apollo#Attributes and symbols|attribute]] of Apollo. Hymns sung to Apollo were called [[paean]]s.

In Hellenistic times, especially during the third century BCE, as ''Apollo Helios'' he became identified among Greeks with [[Helios]], [[solar deity|god of the sun]], and his sister Artemis similarly equated with [[Selene]], [[lunar deity|goddess of the moon]].<ref>For the iconography of the Alexander–Helios type, see H. Hoffmann, 1963. "Helios," in ''Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt'' '''2''', pp. 117–23; cf. Yalouris 1980, no. 42.</ref> In Latin texts, however, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with [[Sol]] among the [[Classical Latin|Augustan poets]] of the first century, not even in the conjurations of [[Aeneas]] and [[Latinus]] in ''[[Aeneid]]'' XII (161–215).<ref>Joseph Fontenrose, "Apollo and Sol in the Latin poets of the first century BC", ''Transactions of the American Philological Association'' '''30''' (1939), pp 439–55; "Apollo and the Sun-God in Ovid", ''American Journal of Philology'' '''61''' (1940) pp 429–44; and "Apollo and Sol in the Oaths of Aeneas and Latinus" ''Classical Philology'' '''38'''.2 (April 1943), pp. 137–138.</ref> Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the third century CE.

==Etymology==
The etymology of ''Apollo'' is uncertain. Several instances of [[popular etymology]] are attested from ancient authors. Thus, [[Plato]] in ''[[Cratylus]]'' connects the name with {{polytonic|ἀπόλυσις}} "redeem", with {{polytonic|ἀπόλουσις}} "purification", and with {{polytonic|ἁπλοῦν}} "simple",<ref>The ἁ{{polytonic|πλοῦν}} suggestion is repeated by [[Plutarch]] in ''[[Moralia]]'' in the sense of "[[1 (number)|unity]]".</ref> in particular in reference to the Thessalian form of the name, {{polytonic|Ἄπλουν}}, and finally with {{polytonic|Ἀει-βάλλων}} "ever-shooting". [[Hesychius of Alexandria|Hesychius]] connects the name Apollo with the Doric απελλα, which means "assembly", so that Apollo would be the god of political life, and he also gives the explanation σηκος ("fold"), in which case Apollo would be the god of flocks and herds. It is also possible<ref>Burkert so holds; ''Greek Religion'' p.144</ref> that ''apellai'' derives from an old form of Apollo which can be equated with Appaliunas, an Anatolian god whose name possibly means "father lion" or "father light". The Greeks later associated Apollo's name with the Greek verb απολλυμι (apollymi) meaning "to destroy".<ref>[http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=apollo Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Apollo]</ref>

It has also been suggested<ref> de Grummond, Nancy Thomson (2006) "Etruscan Myth, Sacred History, and Legend". (Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology)</ref><ref>Mackenzie, Donald A. (2005) "Myths of Babylonia and Assyria" (Gutenberg)</ref> that Apollo comes from the [[Hurrian]] and [[Hittite]] divinity, Aplu, who was widely evoked during the "plague years". Aplu, it is suggested, comes from the Akkadian ''Aplu Enlil'', meaning "the son of Enlil", a title that was given to the god [[Nergal]], who was linked to [[Shamash]], Babylonian god of the sun.

==Origins of cult==
There are generally two broad opinions on the origins of Apollo: one derives him from the East, the other connects him to the Dorians and their [[apella]]i (cf. also the month Apellaios).<ref>Fritz Graf, Apollo, p. 104-113</ref> In any case, W. Burkert notes that components of various origins are discernible in his worship: a Dorian Greek, a Cretan-Minoan and a Syro-Hittite.<ref>Burkert, Greek Religion, Apollo, p.144</ref> According to the first opinion, both [[Greek mythology|Greek]] and [[Etruscan civilization|Etruscan]] Apollo came to the [[Aegean Sea|Aegean]] during the [[Iron Age]] (i.e. from c.1100 BCE to c. 800 BCE) from [[Anatolia]]. [[Homer]] pictures him on the side of the [[Trojan]]s, against the [[Achaean]]s, during the [[Trojan War]] and he has close affiliations with a [[Luwian]] deity, [[Apaliunas]], who in turn seems to have traveled west from further east. The [[Late Bronze Age]] (from 1700–1200 BCE) [[Hittites|Hittite]] and [[Hurrian]] ''Aplu'',<ref>Croft, John (2003) wrote in the [https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2003-May/009551.html Ancient Near East mail list hosted by the University of Chicago] that "Apollo does not have a Greek provenance but an Anatolian one. Luwian Apaliuna seems to have travelled west from further East. Hurrian Aplu was a god of the plague, and resembles the mouse god Apollo Smitheus. Hurrian Aplu itself seems derived from the Babylonian "Aplu" meaning a "son of" — a title that was given to the Babylonian plague God, Nergal (son of Enlil)"</ref> like the Homeric Apollo, was a god of [[Plague (disease)|plague]]s, and resembles the mouse god ''Apollo Smintheus''. Here we have an [[apotrope|apotropaic]] situation, where a god originally bringing the plague was invoked to end it, merging over time through fusion with the [[Mycenae]]an healer-god Paieon (PA-JA-WO in [[Linear B]]); [[Paean]], in Homer's ''[[Iliad]]'', was the Greek healer of the wounded gods [[Ares]] and [[Hades]]. In other writers, the word becomes a mere epithet of Apollo in his capacity as a god of [[healing]], but it is now known from Linear B that Paean was originally a separate deity.

Homer illustrated Paieon the god as well as the song both of [[apotropaic]] thanksgiving or triumph,<ref>See [[Paean]].</ref> and [[Hesiod]] also separated the two; in later poetry Paean was invoked independently as a god of healing. It is equally difficult to separate Paean or Paeon in the sense of "healer" from Paean in the sense of "song."

Such songs were originally addressed to Apollo, and afterwards to other gods, [[Dionysus]], [[Helios]], [[Asclepius]].. About the fourth century BCE, the paean became merely a formula of adulation; its object was either to implore protection against disease and misfortune, or to offer thanks after such protection had been rendered. It was in this way that Apollo had become recognised as the god of music. Apollo's role as the slayer of the [[Python (mythology)|Python]] led to his association with battle and victory; hence it became the Roman custom for a paean to be sung by an [[army]] on the march and before entering into battle, when a fleet left the harbour, and also after a victory had been won.

Apollo's links with oracles again seem to be associated with wishing to know the outcome of an illness. He is a god of music and the lyre. Healing belongs to his realm: he was the father of Asclepius, the god of [[medicine]]. The Muses are part of his retinue, so that [[music]], [[history]], [[poetry]] and [[dance]] all belong to him.

==Cult sites==
Unusually among the Olympic deities, Apollo had two cult sites that had widespread influence: [[Delos]] and [[Delphi]]. In cult practice, Delian Apollo and Pythian Apollo (the Apollo of Delphi) were so distinct that they might both have shrines in the same locality.<ref>Burkert 1985:143.</ref> [[Theophoric names]] such as ''Apollodorus'' or ''Apollonios'' and cities named [[Apollonia]] are met with throughout the Greek world. Apollo's [[Cult (religion)|cult]] was already fully established when written sources commenced, about 650 BCE.

===Oracular shrines===
Apollo had a famous [[oracle]] in Delphi, and other notable ones in [[Clarus]] and [[Branchidae]]. His oracular shrine in [[Abae]] in [[Phocis]], where he bore the [[toponym]]ic epithet ''[[Abaeus]]'' ({{polytonic|Ἀπόλλων Ἀβαῖος}}, ''Apollon Abaios'') was important enough to be consulted by [[Croesus]] ([[Herodotus]], 1.46).
His oracular shrines include:
* In [[Didyma]], an oracle on the coast of [[Anatolia]], south west of [[Lydia]]n ([[Luwian]]) [[Sardis]], in which priests from the lineage of the Branchidae received inspiration by drinking from a healing spring located in the temple.
* In [[Manbij|Hierapolis Bambyce]], Syria (modern Manbij), according to the treatise ''[[De Dea Syria]]'', the sanctuary of the [[Atargatis|Syrian Goddess]] contained a robed and bearded image of Apollo. Divination was based on spontaneous movements of this image.<ref>[[Lucian]] (attrib.), ''[[De Dea Syria]]'' [http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/tsg/tsg07.htm#35 35–37].</ref>
* In [[Delos]], there was an oracle to the Delian Apollo, during summer. The Hieron (Sanctuary) of Apollo adjacent to the Sacred Lake, was the place where the god was said to have been born.
* In [[Corinth]], the Oracle of Corinth came from the town of [[Tenea]], from prisoners supposedly taken in the Trojan War
* In [[Bassae]] in the [[Peloponnese]]
* In [[Abae]] in [[Phocis]]
* In [[Delphi]], the [[Pythia]] became filled with the ''[[pneuma]]'' of Apollo, said to come from a spring inside the [[Adyton]].
* At [[Patara]], in [[Lycia]], there was a seasonal winter oracle of Apollo, said to have been the place where the god went from Delos. As at Delphi the oracle at Patara was a woman.
* At [[Clarus]], on the west coast of [[Asia Minor]]; as at Delphi a holy spring which gave off a ''pneuma'', from which the priests drank.
* In [[Segesta]] in [[Sicily]]

Oracles were also given by sons of Apollo.
* In [[Oropus]], north of [[Athens]], the oracle [[Amphiaraus]], was said to be the son of Apollo; Oropus also had a sacred spring.
* in Labadea, {{convert|20|mi|km}} east of Delphi, [[Trophonius]], another son of Apollo, killed his brother and fled to the cave where he was also afterwards consulted as an oracle.

==Festivals==
The chief Apollonian festivals were the [[Boedromia]], [[Carneia]], Carpiae, [[Daphnephoria]], [[Delia (festival)|Delia]], [[Hyacinthia]], [[Metageitnia]], [[Pyanepsia]], [[Pythia]] and [[Thargelia]].

==Attributes and symbols==
[[Image:Apolocitaredo8.jpg|thumb|left|''[[Apollo Citharoedus]]'' ("Apollo with a kithara"), [[Musei Capitolini]], [[Rome]]]]
Apollo's most common attributes were the bow and [[arrow]]. Other attributes of his included the [[kithara]] (an advanced version of the common [[lyre]]), the [[plectrum]] and the sword. Another common emblem was the [[sacrificial tripod]], representing his prophetic powers. The [[Pythian Games]] were held in Apollo's honor every four years at [[Delphi]]. The bay [[laurel tree|laurel]] plant was used in expiatory sacrifices and in making the [[laurel wreath|crown of victory]] at these games. The [[palm tree|palm]] was also sacred to Apollo because he had been born under one in [[Delos]]. Animals sacred to Apollo included [[wolf|wolves]], [[dolphin]]s, [[roe deer]], [[swan]]s, [[cicada]]s (symbolizing music and [[song]]), [[hawk]]s, [[raven]]s, [[crow]]s, [[snake]]s (referencing Apollo's function as the god of prophecy), [[mice]] and [[griffin]]s, mythical eagle–lion hybrids of Eastern origin.

As god of colonization, Apollo gave oracular guidance on colonies, especially during the height of colonization, 750–550 BCE. According to Greek tradition, he helped [[Crete|Cretan]] or [[Arcadia]]n colonists found the city of [[Troy]]. However, this story may reflect a cultural influence which had the reverse direction: [[Hittites|Hittite]] [[Cuneiform script|cuneiform]] texts mention a Minor Asian god called ''Appaliunas'' or ''Apalunas'' in connection with the city of [[Wilusa]] attested in Hittite inscriptions, which is now generally regarded as being identical with the Greek [[Troy|Ilion]] by most scholars. In this interpretation, Apollo’s title of ''Lykegenes'' can simply be read as "born in Lycia", which effectively severs the god's supposed link with wolves (possibly a [[folk etymology]]).

In literary contexts, Apollo represents harmony, order, and reason—characteristics contrasted with those of [[Dionysus]], god of wine, who represents ecstasy and disorder. The contrast between the roles of these gods is reflected in the adjectives [[Apollonian and Dionysian]]. However, the Greeks thought of the two qualities as complementary: the two gods are brothers, and when Apollo at winter left for [[Hyperborea]], he would leave the Delphic oracle to Dionysus. This contrast appears to be shown on the two sides of the [[Borghese Vase]].

Apollo is often associated with the [[Golden mean (philosophy)|Golden Mean]]. This is the Greek [[ideal]] of [[moderation]] and a [[virtue]] that opposes [[gluttony]].

==Roman Apollo==
The Roman worship of Apollo was adopted from the Greeks. As a quintessentially [[List of Greek mythological figures|Greek god]], Apollo had no direct Roman equivalent, although later Roman poets often referred to him as [[Phoebus]]. There was a tradition that the Delphic oracle was consulted as early as the period of the [[Roman Kingdom|kings of Rome]] during the reign of [[Tarquinius Superbus]].<ref>[[Livy]] [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Liv.+1.56 1.56].</ref> On the occasion of a pestilence in the 430s BC, Apollo's [[Temple of Apollo Sosianus|first temple]] at Rome was established in the Flaminian fields, replacing an older cult site there known as the "Apollinare".<ref>Livy [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0026:book=3:chapter=63 3.63.7], [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0145:book=4:chapter=25 4.25.3].</ref> During the [[Second Punic War]] in 212 BC, the ''[[Ludi Apollinares]]'' ("Apollonian Games") were instituted in his honor, on the instructions of a prophecy attributed to one Marcius.<ref>Livy [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0147:book=25:chapter=12 25.12].</ref> In the time of [[Augustus]], who considered himself under the special protection of Apollo and was even said to be his son, his worship developed and he became one of the chief gods of Rome.<ref>{{cite book |author=J. H. W. G. Liebeschuetz |title=Continuity and Change in Roman Religion |year=1979 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=Oxford |isbn=0-19-814822-4 |pages=82–85 }}</ref> After the [[battle of Actium]], which was fought near a sanctuary of Apollo, Augustus enlarged Apollo's temple, dedicated a portion of the spoils to him, and instituted [[quinquennial]] games in his honour.<ref>[[Suetonius]], ''[[On the Life of the Caesars#Life of Augustus|Augustus]]'' [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html#18.2 18.2]; [[Cassius Dio]] [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/51*.html#1 51.1.1–3].</ref> He also erected [[Temple of Apollo (Palatine)|a new temple]] to the god on the [[Palatine Hill|Palatine hill]].<ref>Cassius Dio [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/53*.html#1.3 53.1.3].</ref> Sacrifices and prayers on the Palatine to Apollo and [[Diana (mythology)|Diana]] formed the culmination of the [[Secular Games]], held in 17 BCE to celebrate the dawn of a new era.<ref>''Inscriptiones Latinae Selectae'' 5050, translated by {{cite book |author=Mary Beard |authorlink=Mary Beard (classicist) |coauthors=John North and Simon Price |title=Religions of Rome: Volume 2: A Sourcebook |year=1998 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |location=Cambridge |isbn=0-521-45015-2 (hbk.); ISBN 0-521-45646-0 (pbk.) |page=5.7b }}</ref>

== In art ==
[[Image:Roman Statue of Apollo.jpg|thumb|left|Apollo (the "Adonis" of Centocelle), Roman after a Greek original ([[Ashmolean Museum]])]]

In art, Apollo is depicted as a handsome beardless young man, often with a [[kithara]] (as [[Apollo Citharoedus]]) or bow in his hand, or reclining on a tree (the [[Apollo Lykeios]] and [[Apollo Sauroctonos]] types). The [[Apollo Belvedere]] is a [[marble]] [[sculpture]] that was rediscovered in the late 15th century; for centuries it epitomized the ideals of [[Classical Antiquity]] for Europeans, from the [[Renaissance]] through the nineteenth century. The marble is a [[Hellenistic Greece|Hellenistic]] or Roman copy of a bronze original by the Greek sculptor [[Leochares]], made between 350 and 325 BC.

The lifesize so-called "[[Adonis]]" (shown at left) found in 1780 on the site of a ''[[Roman villa|villa suburbana]]'' near the [[Via Labicana]] in the Roman suburb of Centocelle and now in the [[Ashmolean Museum]], Oxford, is identified as an Apollo by modern scholars. It was probably never intended as a [[cult object]], but was a [[pastiche]] of several fourth-century and later Hellenistic model types, intended to please a Roman connoisseur of the second century AD, and to be displayed in his villa.

[[Image:Apollo1.JPG|thumb|right|Apollo with a radiant [[Halo (religious iconography)|halo]] in a Roman floor mosaic, [[El Djem]], Tunisia, late 2nd century]]

In the late second century CE floor mosaic from [[El Djem]], Roman ''Thysdrus'' (right), he is identifiable as [[Helios|Apollo Helios]] by his effulgent [[Halo (religious iconography)|halo]], though now even a god's divine [[nudity|nakedness]] is concealed by his cloak, a mark of increasing conventions of modesty in the later [[Roman Empire|Empire]]. Another haloed Apollo in mosaic, from [[Hadrumentum]], is in the museum at [[Sousse]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.tunisiaonline.com/mosaics/mosaic05b.html |title=http://www.tunisiaonline.com/mosaics/mosaic05b.html |accessdate= |format= |work= }}</ref> The conventions of this representation, head tilted, lips slightly parted, large-eyed, curling [[Hairstyle|hair cut]] in locks grazing the neck, were developed in the third century BCE to depict [[Alexander the Great]] (Bieber 1964, Yalouris 1980). Some time after this mosaic was executed, the earliest depictions of Christ will be beardless and haloed.

==Mythology==
===Birth===
When [[Hera]] discovered that Leto was pregnant and that Zeus was the father, she banned Leto from giving birth on "[[terra firma]]", or the mainland, or any [[island]]. In her wanderings, [[Leto]] found the newly created [[floating island]] of [[Delos]], which was neither mainland nor a real island, and she gave birth there. The island was surrounded by swans. Afterwards, Zeus secured Delos to the bottom of the ocean. This island later became sacred to Apollo.

It is also stated that Hera kidnapped [[Ilithyia]], the goddess of childbirth, to prevent Leto from going into labor. The other gods tricked Hera into letting her go by offering her a [[necklace]], nine yards (8 m) long, of [[amber]]. Mythographers agree that Artemis was born first and then assisted with the birth of Apollo, or that [[Artemis]] was born one day before Apollo, on the island of [[Ortygia]] and that she helped Leto cross the sea to Delos the next day to give birth to Apollo. Apollo was born on the seventh day ({{polytonic|ἡβδομαγενης}}) of the month Thargelion —according to Delian tradition— or of the month Bysios— according to Delphian tradition. The seventh and twentieth, the days of the new and [[full moon]], were ever afterwards held sacred to him.

=== Youth ===
Four days after his birth, Apollo killed the chthonic dragon [[Python (mythology)|Python]], which lived in [[Delphi]] beside the [[Castalian Spring]]. This was the spring which emitted vapors that caused the oracle at Delphi to give her prophesies. Hera sent the serpent to hunt Leto to her death across the world. In order to protect his mother, Apollo begged [[Hephaestus]] for a bow and arrows. After receiving them, Apollo cornered Python in the sacred cave at Delphi.<ref>''Children of the Gods'' by Kenneth McLeish, page 32.</ref> Apollo killed Python but had to be punished for it, since Python was a child of [[Gaia (mythology)|Gaia]].

Hera then sent the giant [[Tityos]] to kill Leto. This time Apollo was aided by his sister Artemis in protecting their mother. During the battle Zeus finally relented his aid and hurled Tityos down to [[Tartarus]]. There he was pegged to the rock floor, covering an area of {{convert|9|acre|m2}}, where a pair of [[vulture]]s feasted daily on his liver.

=== Admetus ===
When Zeus struck down Apollo's son Asclepius, with a lightning bolt for resurrecting [[Hippolytus (mythology)|Hippolytus]] from the dead (transgressing [[Themis]] by stealing [[Hades]]'s subjects), Apollo in revenge killed the [[Cyclops]], who had fashioned the bolt for Zeus. Apollo would have been banished to [[Tartarus]] forever, but was instead sentenced to one year of [[Penal labour|hard labor]] as punishment, thanks to the intercession of his mother, [[Leto]]. During this time he served as shepherd for [[Admetus|King Admetus]] of [[Pherae]] in [[Thessaly]]. Admetus treated Apollo well, and, in return, the god conferred great benefits on Admetus.

Apollo helped Admetus win [[Alcestis]], the daughter of [[Pelias|King Pelias]] and later convinced the [[Moirae|Fates]] to let Admetus live past his time, if another took his place. But when it came time for Admetus to die, his parents, whom he had assumed would gladly die for him, refused to cooperate. Instead, Alcestis took his place, but [[Heracles]] managed to "persuade" [[Thanatos]], the god of death, to return her to the world of the living.

=== Trojan War ===
Apollo shot arrows infected with the plague into the Greek encampment during the [[Trojan War]] in retribution for [[Agamemnon]]'s insult to [[Chryses]], a priest of Apollo whose daughter [[Chryseis]] had been captured. He demanded her return, and the Achaeans complied, indirectly causing the anger of Achilles, which is the theme of the ''[[Iliad]]''.

When [[Diomedes]] injured [[Aeneas]] (''[[Iliad]]''), Apollo rescued him. First, [[Aphrodite]] tried to rescue Aeneas but Diomedes injured her as well. Aeneas was then enveloped in a cloud by Apollo, who took him to Pergamos, a sacred spot in [[Troy]].

Apollo aided [[Paris (mythology)|Paris]] in the killing of [[Achilles]] by guiding the arrow of his bow into [[Achilles]]' heel. One interpretation of his motive is that it was in revenge for Achilles' sacrilege in murdering [[Troilus]], the god's own son by [[Hecuba]], on the very altar of the god's own temple.

=== Niobe ===
A queen of [[Thebes (Greece)|Thebes]] and wife of [[Amphion]], [[Niobe]] boasted of her superiority to Leto because she had fourteen children ([[Niobids]]), seven male and seven female, while Leto had only two. Apollo killed her sons as they practiced athletics, with the last begging for his life, and Artemis her daughters. Apollo and Artemis used poisoned arrows to kill them, though according to some versions of the myth, a number of the Niobids were spared ([[Chloris]], usually). Amphion, at the sight of his dead sons, either killed himself or was killed by Apollo after swearing revenge. A devastated Niobe fled to [[Spil Mount|Mount Sipylos]] in [[Asia Minor]] and turned into stone as she wept. Her tears formed the river [[Achelous]]. Zeus had turned all the people of Thebes to stone and so no one buried the Niobids until the ninth day after their death, when the gods themselves entombed them.

=== Consorts and children ===
Love affairs ascribed to Apollo are a late development in Greek mythology.<ref>""The love-stories themselves were not told until later." ([[Karl Kerenyi]], ''The Gods of the Greeks'' 1951:140.</ref> Their vivid anecdotal qualities have made some of them favourites of painters since the Renaissance, so that they stand out more prominently in the modern imagination.

====Female lovers====
{{main|Apollo and Daphne}}
In explanation of the connection of Apollon with ''daphne'', the [[Bay Laurel|Laurel]] whose leaves his priestess employed at [[Delphi]], it was told by [[Libanius]], a fourth-century CE teacher of rhetoric,<ref>Libanius, ''Narrationes''.</ref> that Apollo chased a nymph, [[Daphne]], daughter of [[Peneus]], who had scorned him. In [[Ovid]]'s telling for a Roman audience, Phoebus Apollo chaffs Cupid for toying with a man's weapon suited to a man, whereupon Cupid wounds him with an arrow with a golden dart; simultaneously, however, Eros had shot a leaden arrow into Daphne, causing her to be repulsed by Apollo. Following a spirited chase by Apollo, Daphne prayed to Mother Earth, or, alternatively, her father — a [[Sea and river deity|river god]] — to help her and he changed her into the Laurel tree, sacred to Apollo.

Apollo had an affair with a human princess named [[Leucothea]], daughter of [[Orchamus]] and sister of [[Clytia]]. Leucothea loved Apollo who disguised himself as Leucothea's mother to gain entrance to her chambers. Clytia, jealous of her sister because she wanted Apollo for herself, told Orchamus the truth, betraying her sister's trust and confidence in her. Enraged, Orchamus ordered Leucothea to be buried alive. Apollo refused to forgive Clytia for betraying his beloved, and a grieving Clytia wilted and slowly died. Apollo changed her into an incense plant, either heliotrope or sunflower, which follows the sun every day.

[[Marpessa]] was kidnapped by [[Idas]] but was loved by Apollo as well. [[Zeus]] made her choose between them, and she chose Idas on the grounds that Apollo, being immortal, would tire of her when she grew old.

[[Castalia]] was a [[nymph]] whom Apollo loved. She fled from him and dived into the [[castalian Spring|spring]] at Delphi, at the base of [[Mt. Parnassos]], which was then named after her. Water from this spring was sacred; it was used to clean the Delphian temples and inspire poets.

By [[Cyrene (mythology)|Cyrene]], Apollo had a son named [[Aristaeus]], who became the patron god of cattle, [[fruit trees]], hunting, husbandry and [[bee-keeping]]. He was also a [[culture-hero]] and taught humanity dairy skills and the use of nets and traps in hunting, as well as how to cultivate olives.

With [[Hecuba]], wife of King [[Priam]] of [[Troy]], Apollo had a son named [[Troilus]]. An [[oracle]] prophesied that Troy would not be defeated as long as Troilus reached the age of twenty alive. He was ambushed and killed by [[Achilles]].

Apollo also fell in love with [[Cassandra]], daughter of Hecuba and Priam, and Troilus' half-sister. He promised Cassandra the gift of prophecy to seduce her, but she rejected him afterwards. Enraged, Apollo indeed gifted her with the ability to know the future, with a curse that she could only see the future tragedies and that no one would ever believe her.

[[Coronis]], daughter of [[Phlegyas]], King of the [[Lapiths]], was another of Apollo's liaisons. Pregnant with [[Asclepius]], Coronis fell in love with [[Ischys]], son of [[Elatus]]. A crow informed Apollo of the affair. When first informed he disbelieved the crow and turned all crows black (where they were previously white) as a punishment for spreading untruths. When he found out the truth he sent his sister, Artemis, to kill Coronis (in other stories, Apollo himself had killed Coronis). As a result he also made the crow sacred and gave them the task of announcing important deaths. Apollo rescued the baby and gave it to the [[centaur]] [[Chiron]] to raise. Phlegyas was irate after the death of his daughter and burned the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. Apollo then killed him for what he did.

In [[Euripides]]' play ''[[Ion (play)|Ion]]'', Apollo fathered [[Ion (mythology)|Ion]] by [[Creusa]], wife of [[Xuthus]]. Creusa left Ion to die in the wild, but Apollo asked [[Hermes]] to save the child and bring him to the oracle at [[Delphi]], where he was raised by a priestess.

One of his other liaisons was with [[Acantha]], the spirit of the [[Acanthus (genus)|acanthus]] tree. Upon her death, Apollo transformed her into a sun-loving herb.

====Male lovers====
[[Image:Hyacinthus.jpg|thumb|''Apollo and Hyacinthus'' Jacopo Caraglio; 16th c. Italian engraving]]

Apollo, the eternal beardless [[kouros]] himself, had the most prominent male relationships of all the [[Greek Gods]]. That might be expected from a god who was god of the [[palaestra]], the athletic gathering place for youth who all competed [[Nudity in sport|in the nude]]. Many of Apollo's male lovers suffer tragic deaths resulting from accidents.

[[Hyacinth (mythology)|Hyacinth]] (or Hyacinthus) was one of his male lovers. Hyacinthus was a [[Sparta]]n prince, beautiful and athletic. The pair were practicing throwing the [[Discus throw|discus]] when a discus thrown by Apollo was blown off course by the jealous [[Zephyrus]] and struck Hyacinthus in the head and killing him instantly. When Hyacinthus died, Apollo is said to be filled with grief and in anger at Zephyrus, transformed him into the wind so that he could never touch or speak to anyone again. Out of Hyacinthus' blood, Apollo created a [[hyacinth (plant)|flower]] named after him as a memorial to his death, and his tears stained the flower petals with ''άί'' ''άί'', meaning alas. The Festival of Hyacinthus was a celebration of Sparta.

Another male lover was [[Cyparissus]], a descendant of [[Heracles]]. Apollo gave him a tame deer as a companion but Cyparissus accidentally killed it with a [[Pilum|javelin]] as it lay asleep in the undergrowth. Cyparissus asked Apollo to let his tears fall forever. Apollo granted the request by turning him into the [[Cupressaceae|tree]] named after him, which was said to be a sad tree because the sap forms droplets like tears on the trunk.

=== Birth of Hermes ===
[[Hermes]] was born on [[Mount Kyllini|Mount Cyllene]] in Arcadia. The story is told in the [[Homeric Hymn]] to [[Hermes]]. His mother, [[Maia (mythology)|Maia]], had been secretly impregnated by [[Zeus]]. Maia wrapped the infant in blankets but Hermes escaped while she was asleep. Hermes ran to [[Thessaly]], where Apollo was grazing his cattle. The infant Hermes stole a number of his cows and took them to a cave in the woods near [[Pylos]], covering their tracks. In the cave, he found a [[tortoise]] and killed it, then removed the insides. He used one of the cow's intestines and the tortoise shell and made the first [[lyre]]. Apollo complained to Maia that her son had stolen his cattle, but Hermes had already replaced himself in the blankets she had wrapped him in, so Maia refused to believe Apollo's claim. Zeus intervened and, claiming to have seen the events, sided with Apollo. Hermes then began to play music on the lyre he had invented. Apollo, a god of music, fell in love with the instrument and offered to allow exchange of the cattle for the lyre. Hence, Apollo became a master of the lyre.

=== Other stories ===
Apollo gave the order through the Oracle at Delphi, for [[Orestes (mythology)|Orestes]] to kill his mother, [[Clytemnestra]], and her lover, [[Aegisthus]]. Orestes was punished fiercely by the [[Erinyes]] (the [[Furies]], [[female]] personifications of [[revenge|vengeance]]) for this crime. Relentlessly pursued by the Furies, Orestes asked for the intercession of [[Athena]], who decreed that he be tried by a [[jury]] of his [[Peer group|peer]]s, with Apollo acting as his attorney.

In the [[Odyssey]], [[Odysseus]] and his surviving crew landed on an island sacred to Helios the sun god, where he kept sacred cattle. Though Odysseus warned his men not to (as [[Tiresias]] and [[Circe]] had told him), they killed and ate some of the cattle and Helios had [[Zeus]] destroy the ship and all the men, except [[Odysseus]].

Apollo also had a [[lyre]]-playing contest with [[Cinyras]], his son, who [[Suicide|committed suicide]] when he lost.

Apollo killed the [[Aloadae]] when they attempted to storm [[Mount Olympus (Mountain)|Mt. Olympus]].

It was also said that Apollo rode on the back of a swan to the land of the [[Hyperboreans]] during the winter months, a swan that he also lent to his beloved Hyacinthus to ride.

Apollo turned [[Cephissus]] into a [[sea monster]].

==== Musical contests ====
===== Pan =====
Once [[Pan (mythology)|Pan]] had the audacity to compare his music with that of Apollo, and to challenge Apollo, the god of the [[kithara]], to a trial of skill. [[Tmolus]], the mountain-god, was chosen to umpire. Pan blew on his pipes, and with his rustic melody gave great satisfaction to himself and his faithful follower, [[Midas]], who happened to be present. Then Apollo struck the strings of his lyre. Tmolus at once awarded the victory to Apollo, and all but Midas agreed with the judgment. He dissented, and questioned the justice of the award. Apollo would not suffer such a depraved pair of ears any longer, and caused them to become the ears of a [[donkey]].

===== Marsyas =====
[[Image:TItian - The Flaying of Marsyas.jpg|thumb|''The Flaying of Marsyas'' by [[Titian]], c.1570–76.]]
Apollo has ominous aspects aside from his plague-bringing, death-dealing arrows: [[Marsyas]] was a [[satyr]] who challenged Apollo to a contest of music. He had found an [[aulos]] on the ground, tossed away after being invented by [[Athena]] because it made her cheeks puffy. The contest was judged by the [[Muse]]s. After they each performed, both were deemed equal until Apollo decreed they play and sing at the same time. As Apollo played the [[lyre]], this was easy to do. Marsyas could not do this as he only knew how to use the flute and could not sing at the same time. Apollo was declared the winner because of this. Apollo [[flaying|flayed]] Marsyas alive in a cave near [[Celaenae]] in [[Phrygia]] for his [[hubris]] to challenge a god. He then nailed Marsyas' shaggy skin to a nearby pine-tree. Marsyas' blood turned into the river [[Marsyas (river)|Marsyas]].

Another variation is that Apollo played his instrument (the lyre) upside down. Marsyas could not do this with his instrument (the [[flute]]), and so Apollo hung him from a tree and flayed him alive.<ref>''Man Myth and Magic'' by Richard Cavendish</ref>

== Graeco–Roman epithets and cult titles ==
Apollo, like other Greek deities, had a number of [[epithet]]s applied to him, reflecting the variety of roles, duties, and aspects ascribed to the god. However, while Apollo has a great number of appellations in Greek myth, only a few occur in [[Latin literature]], chief among them '''[[Phoebus]]''' ("shining one"), which was very commonly used by both the Greeks and Romans in Apollo's role as the god of light.

In Apollo's role as healer, his appellations included '''Akesios''', '''Iatros''', and '''[[Acestor]]'''<ref>[[Euripides]], ''[[Andromache (play)|Andromache]]'' 901</ref> meaning "healer". He was also called '''[[Alexicacus]]''' ("restrainer of evil") and '''Apotropaeus''' ("he who averts evil"), and was referred to by the Romans as '''Averruncus''' ("averter of evils"). As a plague god and defender against rats and locusts, Apollo was known as '''Smintheus''' ("mouse-catcher") and '''Parnopius''' ("grasshopper"). The Romans also called Apollo '''Culicarius''' ("driving away [[midge (insect)|midges]]"). In his healing aspect, the Romans referred to Apollo as '''Medicus''' ("the Physician"), and a [[Roman temple|temple]] was dedicated to ''Apollo Medicus'' at Rome, probably next to the temple of [[Bellona]]. As a sun-god he was worshiped as '''Aegletes''', the radiant god.<ref>[[Apollonius of Rhodes]], iv. 1730</ref><ref>[[Apollodorus]], i. 9. § 26</ref>

As a god of archery, Apollo was known as '''Aphetoros''' ("god of the bow") and '''Argurotoxos''' ("with the silver bow"). The Romans referred to Apollo as '''Articenens''' ("carrying the bow") as well. As a pastoral shepherd-god, Apollo was known as '''Nomios''' ("wandering"). As the protector of roads and homes he was '''[[Agyieus]]'''.

Apollo was also known as '''Archegetes''' ("director of the foundation"), who oversaw colonies. He was known as '''Klarios''', from the Doric ''klaros'' ("allotment of land"), for his supervision over cities and colonies.

He was known as '''Delphinios''' ("Delphinian"), meaning "of the womb", in his association with ''Delphoi'' ([[Delphi]]). At Delphi, he was also known as '''Pythios''' ("Pythian"). An [[aitiology]] in the [[Homeric hymns]] connects the epitheton to [[dolphin]]s. '''Kynthios''', another common epithet, stemmed from his birth on Mt. [[Cynthus]]. He was also known as '''Lyceios''' or '''Lykegenes''', which either meant "[[wolf]]ish" or "of [[Lycia]]", Lycia being the place where some postulate that his cult originated.

Specifically as god of prophecy, Apollo was known as '''Loxias''' ("the obscure"). He was also known as '''Coelispex''' ("he who watches the heavens") to the Romans. Apollo was attributed the epithet '''Musagetes''' as the leader of the [[muse]]s, and '''Nymphegetes''' as "[[nymph]]-leader".

'''Acesius''' was the epithet of Apollo worshipped in [[Elis]], where he had a temple in the [[agora]]. This surname, which has the same meaning as ''akestor'' and ''alezikakos'', characterized the god as the averter of evil.<ref name=Smith>"Acesius". ''Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology''. London, 1880. </ref> '''Acraephius''' or '''Acraephiaeus''' was his epithet worshipped in the [[Boeotia]]n town of Acraephia, reputedly founded by his son, [[Acraepheus]]. '''Actiacus''' was his epithet in [[Actium]], one of the principal places of his worship.<ref>[[Ovid]], ''[[Metamorphoses]]'' xiii. 715</ref><ref>[[Strabo]], x. p. 451</ref>

== Celtic epithets and cult titles ==
* Apollo was worshipped throughout the [[Roman Empire]]. In the traditionally [[Celtic nations|Celtic]] lands he was most often seen as a healing and sun god. He was often equated with [[List of Celtic gods|Celtic gods]] of similar character. <ref>''Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend'', Miranda J. Green, Thames and Hudson Ltd, 1997</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Atepomarus]]''' ("the great horseman" or "possessing a great horse"). Apollo was worshipped at [[Mauvières]] ([[Indre]]) under this name. Horses were, in the Celtic world, closely linked to the sun. <ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum XIII, 1863–1986</ref><ref>Pagan Celtic Britain, A. Ross, 1967</ref><ref>The Gods of the Celts, M.J. Green, 1986, London</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Belenus]]''' ('bright' or 'brilliant'). This epithet was given to Apollo in parts of [[Gaul]], North [[Italy]] and [[Noricum]] (part of modern [[Austria]]. Apollo Belenus was a healing and sun god. <ref>Fontes Historiae Religionis Celticae, J. Zwicker, 1934–36, Berlin</ref><ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum V, XI, XII, XIII</ref><ref>''Le culte de Belenos en Provence occidentale et en Gaule'', Ogam (vol 6), J. Gourcest, 1954</ref><ref>''Le cheval sacre dans la Gaule de l'Est'', Revue archeologique de l'Est et du Centre-Est (vol 2), E. Thevonot, 1951</ref><ref>''Temoignages du culte de l'Apollon gaulois dans l'Helvetie romaine'', Revue celtique (vol 51), 1934</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Cunomaglus]]''' ('hound lord'). A title given to Apollo at a shrine in [[Wiltshire]]. Apollo Cunomaglus may have been a god of healing. Cunomaglus himself may originally have been an independent healing god. <ref>The Excavation of the Shrine of Apollo at Nettleton, Whilshire 1956–1971, Society of Antiquaries of London</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Grannus]]'''. Grannus was a healing spring god, later equated with Apollo <ref>The Celtic Heritage in Hungary, M. Szabo, 1971, Budapest</ref><ref name=thevonat>Divinites et sanctuaires de la Gaule, E. Thevonat, 1968, Paris</ref><ref name=devries>La religion des Celtes, J. de Vries, 1963, Paris</ref>

* '''Apollo Maponus'''. A god known from inscriptions in Britain. This may a local fusion of Apollo and [[Maponus]].

* '''[[Apollo Moritasgus]]''' ('masses of sea water'). An epithet for Apollo at Alesia, where he was worshipped as god of healing and, possibly, of physicians. <ref><Alesia, archeologie et histoire, J. Le Gall, 1963, Paris</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Vindonnus]]''' ('clear light'). Apollo Vindonnus had a temple at [[Essarois]], near [[Chatillon-sur-Seine]] in [[Bourgogne|Burgundy]]. He was a god of healing, especially of the eyes. <ref name=thevonat/>

* '''[[Apollo Virotutis]]''' ('benefactor of mankind?'). Apollo Virotutis was worshipped, among other places, at Fins d'Annecy ([[Haute-Savoie]]) and at [[Jublains]] ([[Maine-et-Loire]]) <ref name=devries/><ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum XIII</ref>

==Reception==
Apollo has often featured in postclassical art and literature. [[Percy Bysshe Shelley]] composed a "Hymn of Apollo" (1820), and the god's instruction of the Muses formed the subject of [[Igor Stravinsky]]'s ''[[Apollon musagète]]'' (1927–1928). The name Apollo was given to [[NASA]]'s [[Apollo program|Apollo Lunar program]] in the 1960s.

The statue of Apollo from the west pediment of the [[Temple of Zeus]] at [[Olympia, Greece|Olympia]] (currently in the [[Olympia Archaeological Museum]]) was depicted on the [[Obverse and reverse|obverse]] of the Greek 1000 [[Greek drachma|drachmas]] banknote of 1987–2001.<ref>[http://www.bankofgreece.gr/en Bank of Greece]. Drachma Banknotes & Coins: [http://www.bankofgreece.gr/en/Banknotes/banknote_selection.asp?Value=1.000 1000 drachmas]. – Retrieved on 27 March 2009.</ref>

==Media==
*[[Media:Apollo and Hyacinth - wiki.ogg|1. ''Apollo and Hyacinthus,'' read by Timothy Carter]]

== References ==
* {{1911 |article=Apollo |author=John Henry Freese |url=http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tim_Starling/ScanSet_TIFF_demo&vol=02&page=EB2A196}}

== Further reading ==
===Primary sources===
*[[Homer]], ''Iliad'' ii.595–600 (c. 700 BCE)
*[[Sophocles]], ''Oedipus Rex''
*[[Palaephatus]], ''On Unbelievable Tales'' 46. Hyacinthus (330 BCE)
*[[Apollodorus]], ''Library'' 1.3.3 (140 BCE)
*[[Ovid]], ''Metamorphoses'' 10. 162–219 (1–8 CE)
*[[Pausanias (geographer)|Pausanias]], ''Description of Greece'' 3.1.3, 3.19.4 (160–176 CE)
*[[Philostratus the Elder]], ''Images'' i.24 Hyacinthus (170–245 CE)
*[[Philostratus the Younger]], ''Images'' 14. Hyacinthus (170–245 CE)
*[[Lucian]], ''Dialogues of the Gods'' 14 (170 CE)
*[[First Vatican Mythographer]], 197. Thamyris et Musae

===Secondary sources===
* M. Bieber, 1964. ''Alexander the Great in Greek and Roman Art'' (Chicago)
*[[Walter Burkert]], 1985. ''Greek Religion'' (Harvard University Press) III.2.5 ''passim''
*[[Robert Graves]], 1960. ''The Greek Myths'', revised edition (Penguin)
*Miranda J. Green, ''Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend'', Thames and Hudson Ltd, 1997
*[[Karl Kerenyi]], ''Apollon: Studien über Antiken Religion und Humanität'' rev. ed. 1953.
*Karl Kerenyi , 1951 ''The Gods of the Greeks''
* [[Pauly–Wissowa]], ''Realencyclopädie der klassischen Altertumswissenschaft'': II, "Apollon". The best repertory of cult sites (Burkert).
*Pfeiff, K.A., 1943. ''Apollon: Wandlung seines Bildes in der griechischen Kunst''. Traces the changing iconography of Apollo.
* [[William Smith (lexicographer)]], ''[[Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology]]'', 1870, article on Apollo,<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0239.html |title=http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0239.html |accessdate= |format= |work= }}</ref>
* N. Yalouris, 1980. ''The Search for Alexander'' (Boston) Exhibition.

==Notes==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==
{{commons|Apollo}}
* [http://www.maicar.com/GML/Apollo.html Apollo] at the Greek Mythology Link, by Carlos Parada

{{Greek religion}}
{{Roman religion}}

[[Category:Apollo| ]]
[[Category:Greek mythology]]
[[Category:Greek gods]]
[[Category:Twelve Olympians]]
[[Category:Roman gods]]
[[Category:Oracular gods]]
[[Category:Health gods]]
[[Category:Solar gods]]
[[Category:Arts gods]]
[[Category:Muses]]
[[Category:Offspring of Zeus]]
[[Category:Deities in the Iliad]]
[[Category:Culture heroes]]

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Apollo

2009-06-22T18:43:24Z

3rdAlcove:

{{pp-semi-vandalism|small=yes}}

{{otheruses}}
{{Redirect|Phoebus Apollo|the butterfly|Parnassius phoebus}}
{{Infobox Greek deity|
| Image = Apollo ny carlsberg glyptotek.jpg
| Caption = 2nd century AD Roman statue of Apollo depicting the god's attributes—the lyre and the snake [[Python (mythology)|Python]]
| Name = Apollo
| God_of = '''God of music, poetry and oracles'''
| Abode =
| Symbol =
| Consort =
| Parents = [[Zeus]] and [[Leto]]
| Siblings= [[Artemis]]
| Children= [[Asclepius]], [[Troilus]], [[Aristaeus]]
| Mount =
| Roman_equivalent = Apollo
}}
{{Ancient Greek religion}}
{{Ancient Roman religion}}

In [[Greek mythology|Greek]] and [[Roman mythology]], '''Apollo''' (in [[Ancient Greek|Greek]], ''Ἀπόλλων''—''Apóllōn'' or ''Ἀπέλλων''—''Apellōn''), is one of the most important and many-sided of the [[Twelve Olympians|Olympian deities]]. The ideal of the ''[[kouros]]'' (a beardless youth), Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun; truth and prophecy; [[archery]]; medicine and healing; music, poetry, and the arts; and more. Apollo is the son of [[Zeus]] and [[Leto]], and has a [[twins|twin]] sister, the chaste huntress [[Artemis]]. Apollo is known in Greek-influenced [[Etruscan mythology]] as ''Apulu''. Apollo was worshipped in both [[Ancient Greek religion|ancient Greek]] and [[Ancient Roman religion|Roman religion]], as well as in the modern [[Hellenic neopaganism]].

As the patron of [[Delphi]] (''Pythian Apollo''), Apollo was an [[oracular]] god — the prophetic deity of the [[Pythia|Delphic Oracle]]. Medicine and healing were associated with Apollo, whether through the god himself or mediated through his son [[Asclepius]]. Apollo was also seen as a god who could bring ill-health and deadly [[Plague (disease)|plague]] as well as one who had the ability to cure. Amongst the god's custodial charges, Apollo became associated with dominion over [[Colonies in antiquity|colonists]], and as the patron defender of herds and flocks. As the leader of the [[Muse]]s (''Apollon Musagetes'') and director of their choir, Apollo functioned as the patron god of music and [[poetry]]. [[Hermes]] created the [[lyre]] for him, and the instrument became a common [[Apollo#Attributes and symbols|attribute]] of Apollo. Hymns sung to Apollo were called [[paean]]s.

In Hellenistic times, especially during the third century BCE, as ''Apollo Helios'' he became identified among Greeks with [[Helios]], [[solar deity|god of the sun]], and his sister Artemis similarly equated with [[Selene]], [[lunar deity|goddess of the moon]].<ref>For the iconography of the Alexander–Helios type, see H. Hoffmann, 1963. "Helios," in ''Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt'' '''2''', pp. 117–23; cf. Yalouris 1980, no. 42.</ref> In Latin texts, however, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with [[Sol]] among the [[Classical Latin|Augustan poets]] of the first century, not even in the conjurations of [[Aeneas]] and [[Latinus]] in ''[[Aeneid]]'' XII (161–215).<ref>Joseph Fontenrose, "Apollo and Sol in the Latin poets of the first century BC", ''Transactions of the American Philological Association'' '''30''' (1939), pp 439–55; "Apollo and the Sun-God in Ovid", ''American Journal of Philology'' '''61''' (1940) pp 429–44; and "Apollo and Sol in the Oaths of Aeneas and Latinus" ''Classical Philology'' '''38'''.2 (April 1943), pp. 137–138.</ref> Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the third century CE.

==Etymology==
The etymology of ''Apollo'' is uncertain. Several instances of [[popular etymology]] are attested from ancient authors. Thus, [[Plato]] in ''[[Cratylus]]'' connects the name with {{polytonic|ἀπόλυσις}} "redeem", with {{polytonic|ἀπόλουσις}} "purification", and with {{polytonic|ἁπλοῦν}} "simple",<ref>The ἁ{{polytonic|πλοῦν}} suggestion is repeated by [[Plutarch]] in ''[[Moralia]]'' in the sense of "[[1 (number)|unity]]".</ref> in particular in reference to the Thessalian form of the name, {{polytonic|Ἄπλουν}}, and finally with {{polytonic|Ἀει-βάλλων}} "ever-shooting". [[Hesychius of Alexandria|Hesychius]] connects the name Apollo with the Doric απελλα, which means "assembly", so that Apollo would be the god of political life, and he also gives the explanation σηκος ("fold"), in which case Apollo would be the god of flocks and herds. It is also possible<ref>Burkert so holds; ''Greek Religion'' p.144</ref> that ''apellai'' derives from an old form of Apollo which can be equated with Appaliunas, an Anatolian god whose name possibly means "father lion" or "father light". The Greeks later associated Apollo's name with the Greek verb απολλυμι (apollymi) meaning "to destroy".<ref>[http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=apollo Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Apollo]</ref>

It has also been suggested<ref> de Grummond, Nancy Thomson (2006) "Etruscan Myth, Sacred History, and Legend". (Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology)</ref><ref>Mackenzie, Donald A. (2005) "Myths of Babylonia and Assyria" (Gutenberg)</ref> that Apollo comes from the [[Hurrian]] and [[Hittite]] divinity, Aplu, who was widely evoked during the "plague years". Aplu, it is suggested, comes from the Akkadian ''Aplu Enlil'', meaning "the son of Enlil", a title that was given to the god [[Nergal]], who was linked to [[Shamash]], Babylonian god of the sun.

==Origins of cult==
There are generally two broad opinions on the origins of Apollo: one derives him from the East, the other connects him to the Dorians and their [[apella]]i (cf. also the month Apellaios).<ref>Fritz Graf, Apollo, p. 104-113</ref> In any case, W. Burkert notes that there are components of various origins that can be discerned in his worship: a Dorian Greek, a Cretan-Minoan and a Syro-Hittite.<ref>Burkert, Greek Religion, Apollo, p.144</ref> According to the first opinion, both [[Greek mythology|Greek]] and [[Etruscan civilization|Etruscan]] Apollo came to the [[Aegean Sea|Aegean]] during the [[Iron Age]] (i.e. from c.1100 BCE to c. 800 BCE) from [[Anatolia]]. [[Homer]] pictures him on the side of the [[Trojan]]s, against the [[Achaean]]s, during the [[Trojan War]] and he has close affiliations with a [[Luwian]] deity, [[Apaliunas]], who in turn seems to have traveled west from further east. The [[Late Bronze Age]] (from 1700–1200 BCE) [[Hittites|Hittite]] and [[Hurrian]] ''Aplu'',<ref>Croft, John (2003) wrote in the [https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2003-May/009551.html Ancient Near East mail list hosted by the University of Chicago] that "Apollo does not have a Greek provenance but an Anatolian one. Luwian Apaliuna seems to have travelled west from further East. Hurrian Aplu was a god of the plague, and resembles the mouse god Apollo Smitheus. Hurrian Aplu itself seems derived from the Babylonian "Aplu" meaning a "son of" — a title that was given to the Babylonian plague God, Nergal (son of Enlil)"</ref> like the Homeric Apollo, was a god of [[Plague (disease)|plague]]s, and resembles the mouse god ''Apollo Smintheus''. Here we have an [[apotrope|apotropaic]] situation, where a god originally bringing the plague was invoked to end it, merging over time through fusion with the [[Mycenae]]an healer-god Paieon (PA-JA-WO in [[Linear B]]); [[Paean]], in Homer's ''[[Iliad]]'', was the Greek healer of the wounded gods [[Ares]] and [[Hades]]. In other writers, the word becomes a mere epithet of Apollo in his capacity as a god of [[healing]], but it is now known from Linear B that Paean was originally a separate deity.

Homer illustrated Paieon the god as well as the song both of [[apotropaic]] thanksgiving or triumph,<ref>See [[Paean]].</ref> and [[Hesiod]] also separated the two; in later poetry Paean was invoked independently as a god of healing. It is equally difficult to separate Paean or Paeon in the sense of "healer" from Paean in the sense of "song."

Such songs were originally addressed to Apollo, and afterwards to other gods, [[Dionysus]], [[Helios]], [[Asclepius]].. About the fourth century BCE, the paean became merely a formula of adulation; its object was either to implore protection against disease and misfortune, or to offer thanks after such protection had been rendered. It was in this way that Apollo had become recognised as the god of music. Apollo's role as the slayer of the [[Python (mythology)|Python]] led to his association with battle and victory; hence it became the Roman custom for a paean to be sung by an [[army]] on the march and before entering into battle, when a fleet left the harbour, and also after a victory had been won.

Apollo's links with oracles again seem to be associated with wishing to know the outcome of an illness. He is a god of music and the lyre. Healing belongs to his realm: he was the father of Asclepius, the god of [[medicine]]. The Muses are part of his retinue, so that [[music]], [[history]], [[poetry]] and [[dance]] all belong to him.

==Cult sites==
Unusually among the Olympic deities, Apollo had two cult sites that had widespread influence: [[Delos]] and [[Delphi]]. In cult practice, Delian Apollo and Pythian Apollo (the Apollo of Delphi) were so distinct that they might both have shrines in the same locality.<ref>Burkert 1985:143.</ref> [[Theophoric names]] such as ''Apollodorus'' or ''Apollonios'' and cities named [[Apollonia]] are met with throughout the Greek world. Apollo's [[Cult (religion)|cult]] was already fully established when written sources commenced, about 650 BCE.

===Oracular shrines===
Apollo had a famous [[oracle]] in Delphi, and other notable ones in [[Clarus]] and [[Branchidae]]. His oracular shrine in [[Abae]] in [[Phocis]], where he bore the [[toponym]]ic epithet ''[[Abaeus]]'' ({{polytonic|Ἀπόλλων Ἀβαῖος}}, ''Apollon Abaios'') was important enough to be consulted by [[Croesus]] ([[Herodotus]], 1.46).
His oracular shrines include:
* In [[Didyma]], an oracle on the coast of [[Anatolia]], south west of [[Lydia]]n ([[Luwian]]) [[Sardis]], in which priests from the lineage of the Branchidae received inspiration by drinking from a healing spring located in the temple.
* In [[Manbij|Hierapolis Bambyce]], Syria (modern Manbij), according to the treatise ''[[De Dea Syria]]'', the sanctuary of the [[Atargatis|Syrian Goddess]] contained a robed and bearded image of Apollo. Divination was based on spontaneous movements of this image.<ref>[[Lucian]] (attrib.), ''[[De Dea Syria]]'' [http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/tsg/tsg07.htm#35 35–37].</ref>
* In [[Delos]], there was an oracle to the Delian Apollo, during summer. The Hieron (Sanctuary) of Apollo adjacent to the Sacred Lake, was the place where the god was said to have been born.
* In [[Corinth]], the Oracle of Corinth came from the town of [[Tenea]], from prisoners supposedly taken in the Trojan War
* In [[Bassae]] in the [[Peloponnese]]
* In [[Abae]] in [[Phocis]]
* In [[Delphi]], the [[Pythia]] became filled with the ''[[pneuma]]'' of Apollo, said to come from a spring inside the [[Adyton]].
* At [[Patara]], in [[Lycia]], there was a seasonal winter oracle of Apollo, said to have been the place where the god went from Delos. As at Delphi the oracle at Patara was a woman.
* At [[Clarus]], on the west coast of [[Asia Minor]]; as at Delphi a holy spring which gave off a ''pneuma'', from which the priests drank.
* In [[Segesta]] in [[Sicily]]

Oracles were also given by sons of Apollo.
* In [[Oropus]], north of [[Athens]], the oracle [[Amphiaraus]], was said to be the son of Apollo; Oropus also had a sacred spring.
* in Labadea, {{convert|20|mi|km}} east of Delphi, [[Trophonius]], another son of Apollo, killed his brother and fled to the cave where he was also afterwards consulted as an oracle.

==Festivals==
The chief Apollonian festivals were the [[Boedromia]], [[Carneia]], Carpiae, [[Daphnephoria]], [[Delia (festival)|Delia]], [[Hyacinthia]], [[Metageitnia]], [[Pyanepsia]], [[Pythia]] and [[Thargelia]].

==Attributes and symbols==
[[Image:Apolocitaredo8.jpg|thumb|left|''[[Apollo Citharoedus]]'' ("Apollo with a kithara"), [[Musei Capitolini]], [[Rome]]]]
Apollo's most common attributes were the bow and [[arrow]]. Other attributes of his included the [[kithara]] (an advanced version of the common [[lyre]]), the [[plectrum]] and the sword. Another common emblem was the [[sacrificial tripod]], representing his prophetic powers. The [[Pythian Games]] were held in Apollo's honor every four years at [[Delphi]]. The bay [[laurel tree|laurel]] plant was used in expiatory sacrifices and in making the [[laurel wreath|crown of victory]] at these games. The [[palm tree|palm]] was also sacred to Apollo because he had been born under one in [[Delos]]. Animals sacred to Apollo included [[wolf|wolves]], [[dolphin]]s, [[roe deer]], [[swan]]s, [[cicada]]s (symbolizing music and [[song]]), [[hawk]]s, [[raven]]s, [[crow]]s, [[snake]]s (referencing Apollo's function as the god of prophecy), [[mice]] and [[griffin]]s, mythical eagle–lion hybrids of Eastern origin.

As god of colonization, Apollo gave oracular guidance on colonies, especially during the height of colonization, 750–550 BCE. According to Greek tradition, he helped [[Crete|Cretan]] or [[Arcadia]]n colonists found the city of [[Troy]]. However, this story may reflect a cultural influence which had the reverse direction: [[Hittites|Hittite]] [[Cuneiform script|cuneiform]] texts mention a Minor Asian god called ''Appaliunas'' or ''Apalunas'' in connection with the city of [[Wilusa]] attested in Hittite inscriptions, which is now generally regarded as being identical with the Greek [[Troy|Ilion]] by most scholars. In this interpretation, Apollo’s title of ''Lykegenes'' can simply be read as "born in Lycia", which effectively severs the god's supposed link with wolves (possibly a [[folk etymology]]).

In literary contexts, Apollo represents harmony, order, and reason—characteristics contrasted with those of [[Dionysus]], god of wine, who represents ecstasy and disorder. The contrast between the roles of these gods is reflected in the adjectives [[Apollonian and Dionysian]]. However, the Greeks thought of the two qualities as complementary: the two gods are brothers, and when Apollo at winter left for [[Hyperborea]], he would leave the Delphic oracle to Dionysus. This contrast appears to be shown on the two sides of the [[Borghese Vase]].

Apollo is often associated with the [[Golden mean (philosophy)|Golden Mean]]. This is the Greek [[ideal]] of [[moderation]] and a [[virtue]] that opposes [[gluttony]].

==Roman Apollo==
The Roman worship of Apollo was adopted from the Greeks. As a quintessentially [[List of Greek mythological figures|Greek god]], Apollo had no direct Roman equivalent, although later Roman poets often referred to him as [[Phoebus]]. There was a tradition that the Delphic oracle was consulted as early as the period of the [[Roman Kingdom|kings of Rome]] during the reign of [[Tarquinius Superbus]].<ref>[[Livy]] [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Liv.+1.56 1.56].</ref> On the occasion of a pestilence in the 430s BC, Apollo's [[Temple of Apollo Sosianus|first temple]] at Rome was established in the Flaminian fields, replacing an older cult site there known as the "Apollinare".<ref>Livy [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0026:book=3:chapter=63 3.63.7], [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0145:book=4:chapter=25 4.25.3].</ref> During the [[Second Punic War]] in 212 BC, the ''[[Ludi Apollinares]]'' ("Apollonian Games") were instituted in his honor, on the instructions of a prophecy attributed to one Marcius.<ref>Livy [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0147:book=25:chapter=12 25.12].</ref> In the time of [[Augustus]], who considered himself under the special protection of Apollo and was even said to be his son, his worship developed and he became one of the chief gods of Rome.<ref>{{cite book |author=J. H. W. G. Liebeschuetz |title=Continuity and Change in Roman Religion |year=1979 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=Oxford |isbn=0-19-814822-4 |pages=82–85 }}</ref> After the [[battle of Actium]], which was fought near a sanctuary of Apollo, Augustus enlarged Apollo's temple, dedicated a portion of the spoils to him, and instituted [[quinquennial]] games in his honour.<ref>[[Suetonius]], ''[[On the Life of the Caesars#Life of Augustus|Augustus]]'' [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html#18.2 18.2]; [[Cassius Dio]] [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/51*.html#1 51.1.1–3].</ref> He also erected [[Temple of Apollo (Palatine)|a new temple]] to the god on the [[Palatine Hill|Palatine hill]].<ref>Cassius Dio [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/53*.html#1.3 53.1.3].</ref> Sacrifices and prayers on the Palatine to Apollo and [[Diana (mythology)|Diana]] formed the culmination of the [[Secular Games]], held in 17 BCE to celebrate the dawn of a new era.<ref>''Inscriptiones Latinae Selectae'' 5050, translated by {{cite book |author=Mary Beard |authorlink=Mary Beard (classicist) |coauthors=John North and Simon Price |title=Religions of Rome: Volume 2: A Sourcebook |year=1998 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |location=Cambridge |isbn=0-521-45015-2 (hbk.); ISBN 0-521-45646-0 (pbk.) |page=5.7b }}</ref>

== In art ==
[[Image:Roman Statue of Apollo.jpg|thumb|left|Apollo (the "Adonis" of Centocelle), Roman after a Greek original ([[Ashmolean Museum]])]]

In art, Apollo is depicted as a handsome beardless young man, often with a [[kithara]] (as [[Apollo Citharoedus]]) or bow in his hand, or reclining on a tree (the [[Apollo Lykeios]] and [[Apollo Sauroctonos]] types). The [[Apollo Belvedere]] is a [[marble]] [[sculpture]] that was rediscovered in the late 15th century; for centuries it epitomized the ideals of [[Classical Antiquity]] for Europeans, from the [[Renaissance]] through the nineteenth century. The marble is a [[Hellenistic Greece|Hellenistic]] or Roman copy of a bronze original by the Greek sculptor [[Leochares]], made between 350 and 325 BC.

The lifesize so-called "[[Adonis]]" (shown at left) found in 1780 on the site of a ''[[Roman villa|villa suburbana]]'' near the [[Via Labicana]] in the Roman suburb of Centocelle and now in the [[Ashmolean Museum]], Oxford, is identified as an Apollo by modern scholars. It was probably never intended as a [[cult object]], but was a [[pastiche]] of several fourth-century and later Hellenistic model types, intended to please a Roman connoisseur of the second century AD, and to be displayed in his villa.

[[Image:Apollo1.JPG|thumb|right|Apollo with a radiant [[Halo (religious iconography)|halo]] in a Roman floor mosaic, [[El Djem]], Tunisia, late 2nd century]]

In the late second century CE floor mosaic from [[El Djem]], Roman ''Thysdrus'' (right), he is identifiable as [[Helios|Apollo Helios]] by his effulgent [[Halo (religious iconography)|halo]], though now even a god's divine [[nudity|nakedness]] is concealed by his cloak, a mark of increasing conventions of modesty in the later [[Roman Empire|Empire]]. Another haloed Apollo in mosaic, from [[Hadrumentum]], is in the museum at [[Sousse]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.tunisiaonline.com/mosaics/mosaic05b.html |title=http://www.tunisiaonline.com/mosaics/mosaic05b.html |accessdate= |format= |work= }}</ref> The conventions of this representation, head tilted, lips slightly parted, large-eyed, curling [[Hairstyle|hair cut]] in locks grazing the neck, were developed in the third century BCE to depict [[Alexander the Great]] (Bieber 1964, Yalouris 1980). Some time after this mosaic was executed, the earliest depictions of Christ will be beardless and haloed.

==Mythology==
===Birth===
When [[Hera]] discovered that Leto was pregnant and that Zeus was the father, she banned Leto from giving birth on "[[terra firma]]", or the mainland, or any [[island]]. In her wanderings, [[Leto]] found the newly created [[floating island]] of [[Delos]], which was neither mainland nor a real island, and she gave birth there. The island was surrounded by swans. Afterwards, Zeus secured Delos to the bottom of the ocean. This island later became sacred to Apollo.

It is also stated that Hera kidnapped [[Ilithyia]], the goddess of childbirth, to prevent Leto from going into labor. The other gods tricked Hera into letting her go by offering her a [[necklace]], nine yards (8 m) long, of [[amber]]. Mythographers agree that Artemis was born first and then assisted with the birth of Apollo, or that [[Artemis]] was born one day before Apollo, on the island of [[Ortygia]] and that she helped Leto cross the sea to Delos the next day to give birth to Apollo. Apollo was born on the seventh day ({{polytonic|ἡβδομαγενης}}) of the month Thargelion —according to Delian tradition— or of the month Bysios— according to Delphian tradition. The seventh and twentieth, the days of the new and [[full moon]], were ever afterwards held sacred to him.

=== Youth ===
Four days after his birth, Apollo killed the chthonic dragon [[Python (mythology)|Python]], which lived in [[Delphi]] beside the [[Castalian Spring]]. This was the spring which emitted vapors that caused the oracle at Delphi to give her prophesies. Hera sent the serpent to hunt Leto to her death across the world. In order to protect his mother, Apollo begged [[Hephaestus]] for a bow and arrows. After receiving them, Apollo cornered Python in the sacred cave at Delphi.<ref>''Children of the Gods'' by Kenneth McLeish, page 32.</ref> Apollo killed Python but had to be punished for it, since Python was a child of [[Gaia (mythology)|Gaia]].

Hera then sent the giant [[Tityos]] to kill Leto. This time Apollo was aided by his sister Artemis in protecting their mother. During the battle Zeus finally relented his aid and hurled Tityos down to [[Tartarus]]. There he was pegged to the rock floor, covering an area of {{convert|9|acre|m2}}, where a pair of [[vulture]]s feasted daily on his liver.

=== Admetus ===
When Zeus struck down Apollo's son Asclepius, with a lightning bolt for resurrecting [[Hippolytus (mythology)|Hippolytus]] from the dead (transgressing [[Themis]] by stealing [[Hades]]'s subjects), Apollo in revenge killed the [[Cyclops]], who had fashioned the bolt for Zeus. Apollo would have been banished to [[Tartarus]] forever, but was instead sentenced to one year of [[Penal labour|hard labor]] as punishment, thanks to the intercession of his mother, [[Leto]]. During this time he served as shepherd for [[Admetus|King Admetus]] of [[Pherae]] in [[Thessaly]]. Admetus treated Apollo well, and, in return, the god conferred great benefits on Admetus.

Apollo helped Admetus win [[Alcestis]], the daughter of [[Pelias|King Pelias]] and later convinced the [[Moirae|Fates]] to let Admetus live past his time, if another took his place. But when it came time for Admetus to die, his parents, whom he had assumed would gladly die for him, refused to cooperate. Instead, Alcestis took his place, but [[Heracles]] managed to "persuade" [[Thanatos]], the god of death, to return her to the world of the living.

=== Trojan War ===
Apollo shot arrows infected with the plague into the Greek encampment during the [[Trojan War]] in retribution for [[Agamemnon]]'s insult to [[Chryses]], a priest of Apollo whose daughter [[Chryseis]] had been captured. He demanded her return, and the Achaeans complied, indirectly causing the anger of Achilles, which is the theme of the ''[[Iliad]]''.

When [[Diomedes]] injured [[Aeneas]] (''[[Iliad]]''), Apollo rescued him. First, [[Aphrodite]] tried to rescue Aeneas but Diomedes injured her as well. Aeneas was then enveloped in a cloud by Apollo, who took him to Pergamos, a sacred spot in [[Troy]].

Apollo aided [[Paris (mythology)|Paris]] in the killing of [[Achilles]] by guiding the arrow of his bow into [[Achilles]]' heel. One interpretation of his motive is that it was in revenge for Achilles' sacrilege in murdering [[Troilus]], the god's own son by [[Hecuba]], on the very altar of the god's own temple.

=== Niobe ===
A queen of [[Thebes (Greece)|Thebes]] and wife of [[Amphion]], [[Niobe]] boasted of her superiority to Leto because she had fourteen children ([[Niobids]]), seven male and seven female, while Leto had only two. Apollo killed her sons as they practiced athletics, with the last begging for his life, and Artemis her daughters. Apollo and Artemis used poisoned arrows to kill them, though according to some versions of the myth, a number of the Niobids were spared ([[Chloris]], usually). Amphion, at the sight of his dead sons, either killed himself or was killed by Apollo after swearing revenge. A devastated Niobe fled to [[Spil Mount|Mount Sipylos]] in [[Asia Minor]] and turned into stone as she wept. Her tears formed the river [[Achelous]]. Zeus had turned all the people of Thebes to stone and so no one buried the Niobids until the ninth day after their death, when the gods themselves entombed them.

=== Consorts and children ===
Love affairs ascribed to Apollo are a late development in Greek mythology.<ref>""The love-stories themselves were not told until later." ([[Karl Kerenyi]], ''The Gods of the Greeks'' 1951:140.</ref> Their vivid anecdotal qualities have made some of them favourites of painters since the Renaissance, so that they stand out more prominently in the modern imagination.

====Female lovers====
{{main|Apollo and Daphne}}
In explanation of the connection of Apollon with ''daphne'', the [[Bay Laurel|Laurel]] whose leaves his priestess employed at [[Delphi]], it was told by [[Libanius]], a fourth-century CE teacher of rhetoric,<ref>Libanius, ''Narrationes''.</ref> that Apollo chased a nymph, [[Daphne]], daughter of [[Peneus]], who had scorned him. In [[Ovid]]'s telling for a Roman audience, Phoebus Apollo chaffs Cupid for toying with a man's weapon suited to a man, whereupon Cupid wounds him with an arrow with a golden dart; simultaneously, however, Eros had shot a leaden arrow into Daphne, causing her to be repulsed by Apollo. Following a spirited chase by Apollo, Daphne prayed to Mother Earth, or, alternatively, her father — a [[Sea and river deity|river god]] — to help her and he changed her into the Laurel tree, sacred to Apollo.

Apollo had an affair with a human princess named [[Leucothea]], daughter of [[Orchamus]] and sister of [[Clytia]]. Leucothea loved Apollo who disguised himself as Leucothea's mother to gain entrance to her chambers. Clytia, jealous of her sister because she wanted Apollo for herself, told Orchamus the truth, betraying her sister's trust and confidence in her. Enraged, Orchamus ordered Leucothea to be buried alive. Apollo refused to forgive Clytia for betraying his beloved, and a grieving Clytia wilted and slowly died. Apollo changed her into an incense plant, either heliotrope or sunflower, which follows the sun every day.

[[Marpessa]] was kidnapped by [[Idas]] but was loved by Apollo as well. [[Zeus]] made her choose between them, and she chose Idas on the grounds that Apollo, being immortal, would tire of her when she grew old.

[[Castalia]] was a [[nymph]] whom Apollo loved. She fled from him and dived into the [[castalian Spring|spring]] at Delphi, at the base of [[Mt. Parnassos]], which was then named after her. Water from this spring was sacred; it was used to clean the Delphian temples and inspire poets.

By [[Cyrene (mythology)|Cyrene]], Apollo had a son named [[Aristaeus]], who became the patron god of cattle, [[fruit trees]], hunting, husbandry and [[bee-keeping]]. He was also a [[culture-hero]] and taught humanity dairy skills and the use of nets and traps in hunting, as well as how to cultivate olives.

With [[Hecuba]], wife of King [[Priam]] of [[Troy]], Apollo had a son named [[Troilus]]. An [[oracle]] prophesied that Troy would not be defeated as long as Troilus reached the age of twenty alive. He was ambushed and killed by [[Achilles]].

Apollo also fell in love with [[Cassandra]], daughter of Hecuba and Priam, and Troilus' half-sister. He promised Cassandra the gift of prophecy to seduce her, but she rejected him afterwards. Enraged, Apollo indeed gifted her with the ability to know the future, with a curse that she could only see the future tragedies and that no one would ever believe her.

[[Coronis]], daughter of [[Phlegyas]], King of the [[Lapiths]], was another of Apollo's liaisons. Pregnant with [[Asclepius]], Coronis fell in love with [[Ischys]], son of [[Elatus]]. A crow informed Apollo of the affair. When first informed he disbelieved the crow and turned all crows black (where they were previously white) as a punishment for spreading untruths. When he found out the truth he sent his sister, Artemis, to kill Coronis (in other stories, Apollo himself had killed Coronis). As a result he also made the crow sacred and gave them the task of announcing important deaths. Apollo rescued the baby and gave it to the [[centaur]] [[Chiron]] to raise. Phlegyas was irate after the death of his daughter and burned the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. Apollo then killed him for what he did.

In [[Euripides]]' play ''[[Ion (play)|Ion]]'', Apollo fathered [[Ion (mythology)|Ion]] by [[Creusa]], wife of [[Xuthus]]. Creusa left Ion to die in the wild, but Apollo asked [[Hermes]] to save the child and bring him to the oracle at [[Delphi]], where he was raised by a priestess.

One of his other liaisons was with [[Acantha]], the spirit of the [[Acanthus (genus)|acanthus]] tree. Upon her death, Apollo transformed her into a sun-loving herb.

====Male lovers====
[[Image:Hyacinthus.jpg|thumb|''Apollo and Hyacinthus'' Jacopo Caraglio; 16th c. Italian engraving]]

Apollo, the eternal beardless [[kouros]] himself, had the most prominent male relationships of all the [[Greek Gods]]. That might be expected from a god who was god of the [[palaestra]], the athletic gathering place for youth who all competed [[Nudity in sport|in the nude]]. Many of Apollo's male lovers suffer tragic deaths resulting from accidents.

[[Hyacinth (mythology)|Hyacinth]] (or Hyacinthus) was one of his male lovers. Hyacinthus was a [[Sparta]]n prince, beautiful and athletic. The pair were practicing throwing the [[Discus throw|discus]] when a discus thrown by Apollo was blown off course by the jealous [[Zephyrus]] and struck Hyacinthus in the head and killing him instantly. When Hyacinthus died, Apollo is said to be filled with grief and in anger at Zephyrus, transformed him into the wind so that he could never touch or speak to anyone again. Out of Hyacinthus' blood, Apollo created a [[hyacinth (plant)|flower]] named after him as a memorial to his death, and his tears stained the flower petals with ''άί'' ''άί'', meaning alas. The Festival of Hyacinthus was a celebration of Sparta.

Another male lover was [[Cyparissus]], a descendant of [[Heracles]]. Apollo gave him a tame deer as a companion but Cyparissus accidentally killed it with a [[Pilum|javelin]] as it lay asleep in the undergrowth. Cyparissus asked Apollo to let his tears fall forever. Apollo granted the request by turning him into the [[Cupressaceae|tree]] named after him, which was said to be a sad tree because the sap forms droplets like tears on the trunk.

=== Birth of Hermes ===
[[Hermes]] was born on [[Mount Kyllini|Mount Cyllene]] in Arcadia. The story is told in the [[Homeric Hymn]] to [[Hermes]]. His mother, [[Maia (mythology)|Maia]], had been secretly impregnated by [[Zeus]]. Maia wrapped the infant in blankets but Hermes escaped while she was asleep. Hermes ran to [[Thessaly]], where Apollo was grazing his cattle. The infant Hermes stole a number of his cows and took them to a cave in the woods near [[Pylos]], covering their tracks. In the cave, he found a [[tortoise]] and killed it, then removed the insides. He used one of the cow's intestines and the tortoise shell and made the first [[lyre]]. Apollo complained to Maia that her son had stolen his cattle, but Hermes had already replaced himself in the blankets she had wrapped him in, so Maia refused to believe Apollo's claim. Zeus intervened and, claiming to have seen the events, sided with Apollo. Hermes then began to play music on the lyre he had invented. Apollo, a god of music, fell in love with the instrument and offered to allow exchange of the cattle for the lyre. Hence, Apollo became a master of the lyre.

=== Other stories ===
Apollo gave the order through the Oracle at Delphi, for [[Orestes (mythology)|Orestes]] to kill his mother, [[Clytemnestra]], and her lover, [[Aegisthus]]. Orestes was punished fiercely by the [[Erinyes]] (the [[Furies]], [[female]] personifications of [[revenge|vengeance]]) for this crime. Relentlessly pursued by the Furies, Orestes asked for the intercession of [[Athena]], who decreed that he be tried by a [[jury]] of his [[Peer group|peer]]s, with Apollo acting as his attorney.

In the [[Odyssey]], [[Odysseus]] and his surviving crew landed on an island sacred to Helios the sun god, where he kept sacred cattle. Though Odysseus warned his men not to (as [[Tiresias]] and [[Circe]] had told him), they killed and ate some of the cattle and Helios had [[Zeus]] destroy the ship and all the men, except [[Odysseus]].

Apollo also had a [[lyre]]-playing contest with [[Cinyras]], his son, who [[Suicide|committed suicide]] when he lost.

Apollo killed the [[Aloadae]] when they attempted to storm [[Mount Olympus (Mountain)|Mt. Olympus]].

It was also said that Apollo rode on the back of a swan to the land of the [[Hyperboreans]] during the winter months, a swan that he also lent to his beloved Hyacinthus to ride.

Apollo turned [[Cephissus]] into a [[sea monster]].

==== Musical contests ====
===== Pan =====
Once [[Pan (mythology)|Pan]] had the audacity to compare his music with that of Apollo, and to challenge Apollo, the god of the [[kithara]], to a trial of skill. [[Tmolus]], the mountain-god, was chosen to umpire. Pan blew on his pipes, and with his rustic melody gave great satisfaction to himself and his faithful follower, [[Midas]], who happened to be present. Then Apollo struck the strings of his lyre. Tmolus at once awarded the victory to Apollo, and all but Midas agreed with the judgment. He dissented, and questioned the justice of the award. Apollo would not suffer such a depraved pair of ears any longer, and caused them to become the ears of a [[donkey]].

===== Marsyas =====
[[Image:TItian - The Flaying of Marsyas.jpg|thumb|''The Flaying of Marsyas'' by [[Titian]], c.1570–76.]]
Apollo has ominous aspects aside from his plague-bringing, death-dealing arrows: [[Marsyas]] was a [[satyr]] who challenged Apollo to a contest of music. He had found an [[aulos]] on the ground, tossed away after being invented by [[Athena]] because it made her cheeks puffy. The contest was judged by the [[Muse]]s. After they each performed, both were deemed equal until Apollo decreed they play and sing at the same time. As Apollo played the [[lyre]], this was easy to do. Marsyas could not do this as he only knew how to use the flute and could not sing at the same time. Apollo was declared the winner because of this. Apollo [[flaying|flayed]] Marsyas alive in a cave near [[Celaenae]] in [[Phrygia]] for his [[hubris]] to challenge a god. He then nailed Marsyas' shaggy skin to a nearby pine-tree. Marsyas' blood turned into the river [[Marsyas (river)|Marsyas]].

Another variation is that Apollo played his instrument (the lyre) upside down. Marsyas could not do this with his instrument (the [[flute]]), and so Apollo hung him from a tree and flayed him alive.<ref>''Man Myth and Magic'' by Richard Cavendish</ref>

== Graeco–Roman epithets and cult titles ==
Apollo, like other Greek deities, had a number of [[epithet]]s applied to him, reflecting the variety of roles, duties, and aspects ascribed to the god. However, while Apollo has a great number of appellations in Greek myth, only a few occur in [[Latin literature]], chief among them '''[[Phoebus]]''' ("shining one"), which was very commonly used by both the Greeks and Romans in Apollo's role as the god of light.

In Apollo's role as healer, his appellations included '''Akesios''', '''Iatros''', and '''[[Acestor]]'''<ref>[[Euripides]], ''[[Andromache (play)|Andromache]]'' 901</ref> meaning "healer". He was also called '''[[Alexicacus]]''' ("restrainer of evil") and '''Apotropaeus''' ("he who averts evil"), and was referred to by the Romans as '''Averruncus''' ("averter of evils"). As a plague god and defender against rats and locusts, Apollo was known as '''Smintheus''' ("mouse-catcher") and '''Parnopius''' ("grasshopper"). The Romans also called Apollo '''Culicarius''' ("driving away [[midge (insect)|midges]]"). In his healing aspect, the Romans referred to Apollo as '''Medicus''' ("the Physician"), and a [[Roman temple|temple]] was dedicated to ''Apollo Medicus'' at Rome, probably next to the temple of [[Bellona]]. As a sun-god he was worshiped as '''Aegletes''', the radiant god.<ref>[[Apollonius of Rhodes]], iv. 1730</ref><ref>[[Apollodorus]], i. 9. § 26</ref>

As a god of archery, Apollo was known as '''Aphetoros''' ("god of the bow") and '''Argurotoxos''' ("with the silver bow"). The Romans referred to Apollo as '''Articenens''' ("carrying the bow") as well. As a pastoral shepherd-god, Apollo was known as '''Nomios''' ("wandering"). As the protector of roads and homes he was '''[[Agyieus]]'''.

Apollo was also known as '''Archegetes''' ("director of the foundation"), who oversaw colonies. He was known as '''Klarios''', from the Doric ''klaros'' ("allotment of land"), for his supervision over cities and colonies.

He was known as '''Delphinios''' ("Delphinian"), meaning "of the womb", in his association with ''Delphoi'' ([[Delphi]]). At Delphi, he was also known as '''Pythios''' ("Pythian"). An [[aitiology]] in the [[Homeric hymns]] connects the epitheton to [[dolphin]]s. '''Kynthios''', another common epithet, stemmed from his birth on Mt. [[Cynthus]]. He was also known as '''Lyceios''' or '''Lykegenes''', which either meant "[[wolf]]ish" or "of [[Lycia]]", Lycia being the place where some postulate that his cult originated.

Specifically as god of prophecy, Apollo was known as '''Loxias''' ("the obscure"). He was also known as '''Coelispex''' ("he who watches the heavens") to the Romans. Apollo was attributed the epithet '''Musagetes''' as the leader of the [[muse]]s, and '''Nymphegetes''' as "[[nymph]]-leader".

'''Acesius''' was the epithet of Apollo worshipped in [[Elis]], where he had a temple in the [[agora]]. This surname, which has the same meaning as ''akestor'' and ''alezikakos'', characterized the god as the averter of evil.<ref name=Smith>"Acesius". ''Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology''. London, 1880. </ref> '''Acraephius''' or '''Acraephiaeus''' was his epithet worshipped in the [[Boeotia]]n town of Acraephia, reputedly founded by his son, [[Acraepheus]]. '''Actiacus''' was his epithet in [[Actium]], one of the principal places of his worship.<ref>[[Ovid]], ''[[Metamorphoses]]'' xiii. 715</ref><ref>[[Strabo]], x. p. 451</ref>

== Celtic epithets and cult titles ==
* Apollo was worshipped throughout the [[Roman Empire]]. In the traditionally [[Celtic nations|Celtic]] lands he was most often seen as a healing and sun god. He was often equated with [[List of Celtic gods|Celtic gods]] of similar character. <ref>''Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend'', Miranda J. Green, Thames and Hudson Ltd, 1997</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Atepomarus]]''' ("the great horseman" or "possessing a great horse"). Apollo was worshipped at [[Mauvières]] ([[Indre]]) under this name. Horses were, in the Celtic world, closely linked to the sun. <ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum XIII, 1863–1986</ref><ref>Pagan Celtic Britain, A. Ross, 1967</ref><ref>The Gods of the Celts, M.J. Green, 1986, London</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Belenus]]''' ('bright' or 'brilliant'). This epithet was given to Apollo in parts of [[Gaul]], North [[Italy]] and [[Noricum]] (part of modern [[Austria]]. Apollo Belenus was a healing and sun god. <ref>Fontes Historiae Religionis Celticae, J. Zwicker, 1934–36, Berlin</ref><ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum V, XI, XII, XIII</ref><ref>''Le culte de Belenos en Provence occidentale et en Gaule'', Ogam (vol 6), J. Gourcest, 1954</ref><ref>''Le cheval sacre dans la Gaule de l'Est'', Revue archeologique de l'Est et du Centre-Est (vol 2), E. Thevonot, 1951</ref><ref>''Temoignages du culte de l'Apollon gaulois dans l'Helvetie romaine'', Revue celtique (vol 51), 1934</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Cunomaglus]]''' ('hound lord'). A title given to Apollo at a shrine in [[Wiltshire]]. Apollo Cunomaglus may have been a god of healing. Cunomaglus himself may originally have been an independent healing god. <ref>The Excavation of the Shrine of Apollo at Nettleton, Whilshire 1956–1971, Society of Antiquaries of London</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Grannus]]'''. Grannus was a healing spring god, later equated with Apollo <ref>The Celtic Heritage in Hungary, M. Szabo, 1971, Budapest</ref><ref name=thevonat>Divinites et sanctuaires de la Gaule, E. Thevonat, 1968, Paris</ref><ref name=devries>La religion des Celtes, J. de Vries, 1963, Paris</ref>

* '''Apollo Maponus'''. A god known from inscriptions in Britain. This may a local fusion of Apollo and [[Maponus]].

* '''[[Apollo Moritasgus]]''' ('masses of sea water'). An epithet for Apollo at Alesia, where he was worshipped as god of healing and, possibly, of physicians. <ref><Alesia, archeologie et histoire, J. Le Gall, 1963, Paris</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Vindonnus]]''' ('clear light'). Apollo Vindonnus had a temple at [[Essarois]], near [[Chatillon-sur-Seine]] in [[Bourgogne|Burgundy]]. He was a god of healing, especially of the eyes. <ref name=thevonat/>

* '''[[Apollo Virotutis]]''' ('benefactor of mankind?'). Apollo Virotutis was worshipped, among other places, at Fins d'Annecy ([[Haute-Savoie]]) and at [[Jublains]] ([[Maine-et-Loire]]) <ref name=devries/><ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum XIII</ref>

==Reception==
Apollo has often featured in postclassical art and literature. [[Percy Bysshe Shelley]] composed a "Hymn of Apollo" (1820), and the god's instruction of the Muses formed the subject of [[Igor Stravinsky]]'s ''[[Apollon musagète]]'' (1927–1928). The name Apollo was given to [[NASA]]'s [[Apollo program|Apollo Lunar program]] in the 1960s.

The statue of Apollo from the west pediment of the [[Temple of Zeus]] at [[Olympia, Greece|Olympia]] (currently in the [[Olympia Archaeological Museum]]) was depicted on the [[Obverse and reverse|obverse]] of the Greek 1000 [[Greek drachma|drachmas]] banknote of 1987–2001.<ref>[http://www.bankofgreece.gr/en Bank of Greece]. Drachma Banknotes & Coins: [http://www.bankofgreece.gr/en/Banknotes/banknote_selection.asp?Value=1.000 1000 drachmas]. – Retrieved on 27 March 2009.</ref>

==Media==
*[[Media:Apollo and Hyacinth - wiki.ogg|1. ''Apollo and Hyacinthus,'' read by Timothy Carter]]

== References ==
* {{1911 |article=Apollo |author=John Henry Freese |url=http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tim_Starling/ScanSet_TIFF_demo&vol=02&page=EB2A196}}

== Further reading ==
===Primary sources===
*[[Homer]], ''Iliad'' ii.595–600 (c. 700 BCE)
*[[Sophocles]], ''Oedipus Rex''
*[[Palaephatus]], ''On Unbelievable Tales'' 46. Hyacinthus (330 BCE)
*[[Apollodorus]], ''Library'' 1.3.3 (140 BCE)
*[[Ovid]], ''Metamorphoses'' 10. 162–219 (1–8 CE)
*[[Pausanias (geographer)|Pausanias]], ''Description of Greece'' 3.1.3, 3.19.4 (160–176 CE)
*[[Philostratus the Elder]], ''Images'' i.24 Hyacinthus (170–245 CE)
*[[Philostratus the Younger]], ''Images'' 14. Hyacinthus (170–245 CE)
*[[Lucian]], ''Dialogues of the Gods'' 14 (170 CE)
*[[First Vatican Mythographer]], 197. Thamyris et Musae

===Secondary sources===
* M. Bieber, 1964. ''Alexander the Great in Greek and Roman Art'' (Chicago)
*[[Walter Burkert]], 1985. ''Greek Religion'' (Harvard University Press) III.2.5 ''passim''
*[[Robert Graves]], 1960. ''The Greek Myths'', revised edition (Penguin)
*Miranda J. Green, ''Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend'', Thames and Hudson Ltd, 1997
*[[Karl Kerenyi]], ''Apollon: Studien über Antiken Religion und Humanität'' rev. ed. 1953.
*Karl Kerenyi , 1951 ''The Gods of the Greeks''
* [[Pauly–Wissowa]], ''Realencyclopädie der klassischen Altertumswissenschaft'': II, "Apollon". The best repertory of cult sites (Burkert).
*Pfeiff, K.A., 1943. ''Apollon: Wandlung seines Bildes in der griechischen Kunst''. Traces the changing iconography of Apollo.
* [[William Smith (lexicographer)]], ''[[Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology]]'', 1870, article on Apollo,<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0239.html |title=http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0239.html |accessdate= |format= |work= }}</ref>
* N. Yalouris, 1980. ''The Search for Alexander'' (Boston) Exhibition.

==Notes==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==
{{commons|Apollo}}
* [http://www.maicar.com/GML/Apollo.html Apollo] at the Greek Mythology Link, by Carlos Parada

{{Greek religion}}
{{Roman religion}}

[[Category:Apollo| ]]
[[Category:Greek mythology]]
[[Category:Greek gods]]
[[Category:Twelve Olympians]]
[[Category:Roman gods]]
[[Category:Oracular gods]]
[[Category:Health gods]]
[[Category:Solar gods]]
[[Category:Arts gods]]
[[Category:Muses]]
[[Category:Offspring of Zeus]]
[[Category:Deities in the Iliad]]
[[Category:Culture heroes]]

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Apollo

2009-06-22T18:42:34Z

3rdAlcove:

{{pp-semi-vandalism|small=yes}}

{{otheruses}}
{{Redirect|Phoebus Apollo|the butterfly|Parnassius phoebus}}
{{Infobox Greek deity|
| Image = Apollo ny carlsberg glyptotek.jpg
| Caption = 2nd century AD Roman statue of Apollo depicting the god's attributes—the lyre and the snake [[Python (mythology)|Python]]
| Name = Apollo
| God_of = '''God of music, poetry and oracles'''
| Abode =
| Symbol =
| Consort =
| Parents = [[Zeus]] and [[Leto]]
| Siblings= [[Artemis]]
| Children= [[Asclepius]], [[Troilus]], [[Aristaeus]]
| Mount =
| Roman_equivalent = Apollo
}}
{{Ancient Greek religion}}
{{Ancient Roman religion}}

In [[Greek mythology|Greek]] and [[Roman mythology]], '''Apollo''' (in [[Ancient Greek|Greek]], ''Ἀπόλλων''—''Apóllōn'' or ''Ἀπέλλων''—''Apellōn''), is one of the most important and many-sided of the [[Twelve Olympians|Olympian deities]]. The ideal of the ''[[kouros]]'' (a beardless youth), Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun; truth and prophecy; [[archery]]; medicine and healing; music, poetry, and the arts; and more. Apollo is the son of [[Zeus]] and [[Leto]], and has a [[twins|twin]] sister, the chaste huntress [[Artemis]]. Apollo is known in Greek-influenced [[Etruscan mythology]] as ''Apulu''. Apollo was worshipped in both [[Ancient Greek religion|ancient Greek]] and [[Ancient Roman religion|Roman religion]], as well as in the modern [[Hellenic neopaganism]].

As the patron of [[Delphi]] (''Pythian Apollo''), Apollo was an [[oracular]] god — the prophetic deity of the [[Pythia|Delphic Oracle]]. Medicine and healing were associated with Apollo, whether through the god himself or mediated through his son [[Asclepius]]. Apollo was also seen as a god who could bring ill-health and deadly [[Plague (disease)|plague]] as well as one who had the ability to cure. Amongst the god's custodial charges, Apollo became associated with dominion over [[Colonies in antiquity|colonists]], and as the patron defender of herds and flocks. As the leader of the [[Muse]]s (''Apollon Musagetes'') and director of their choir, Apollo functioned as the patron god of music and [[poetry]]. [[Hermes]] created the [[lyre]] for him, and the instrument became a common [[Apollo#Attributes and symbols|attribute]] of Apollo. Hymns sung to Apollo were called [[paean]]s.

In Hellenistic times, especially during the third century BCE, as ''Apollo Helios'' he became identified among Greeks with [[Helios]], [[solar deity|god of the sun]], and his sister Artemis similarly equated with [[Selene]], [[lunar deity|goddess of the moon]].<ref>For the iconography of the Alexander–Helios type, see H. Hoffmann, 1963. "Helios," in ''Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt'' '''2''', pp. 117–23; cf. Yalouris 1980, no. 42.</ref> In Latin texts, however, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with [[Sol]] among the [[Classical Latin|Augustan poets]] of the first century, not even in the conjurations of [[Aeneas]] and [[Latinus]] in ''[[Aeneid]]'' XII (161–215).<ref>Joseph Fontenrose, "Apollo and Sol in the Latin poets of the first century BC", ''Transactions of the American Philological Association'' '''30''' (1939), pp 439–55; "Apollo and the Sun-God in Ovid", ''American Journal of Philology'' '''61''' (1940) pp 429–44; and "Apollo and Sol in the Oaths of Aeneas and Latinus" ''Classical Philology'' '''38'''.2 (April 1943), pp. 137–138.</ref> Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the third century CE.

==Etymology==
The etymology of ''Apollo'' is uncertain. Several instances of [[popular etymology]] are attested from ancient authors. Thus, [[Plato]] in ''[[Cratylus]]'' connects the name with {{polytonic|ἀπόλυσις}} "redeem", with {{polytonic|ἀπόλουσις}} "purification", and with {{polytonic|ἁπλοῦν}} "simple",<ref>The ἁ{{polytonic|πλοῦν}} suggestion is repeated by [[Plutarch]] in ''[[Moralia]]'' in the sense of "[[1 (number)|unity]]".</ref> in particular in reference to the Thessalian form of the name, {{polytonic|Ἄπλουν}}, and finally with {{polytonic|Ἀει-βάλλων}} "ever-shooting". [[Hesychius of Alexandria|Hesychius]] connects the name Apollo with the Doric απελλα, which means "assembly", so that Apollo would be the god of political life, and he also gives the explanation σηκος ("fold"), in which case Apollo would be the god of flocks and herds. It is also possible<ref>Burkert so holds; ''Greek Religion'' p.144</ref> that ''apellai'' derives from an old form of Apollo which can be equated with Appaliunas, an Anatolian god whose name possibly means "father lion" or "father light". The Greeks later associated Apollo's name with the Greek verb απολλυμι (apollymi) meaning "to destroy".<ref>[http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=apollo Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Apollo]</ref>

It has also been suggested<ref> de Grummond, Nancy Thomson (2006) "Etruscan Myth, Sacred History, and Legend". (Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology)</ref><ref>Mackenzie, Donald A. (2005) "Myths of Babylonia and Assyria" (Gutenberg)</ref> that Apollo comes from the [[Hurrian]] and [[Hittite]] divinity, Aplu, who was widely evoked during the "plague years". Aplu, it is suggested, comes from the Akkadian ''Aplu Enlil'', meaning "the son of Enlil", a title that was given to the god [[Nergal]], who was linked to [[Shamash]], Babylonian god of the sun.

==Origins of cult==
There are generally two broad opinions on the origins of Apollo: one derives him from the East, the other connects him to the Dorians and their [[apella]]i (cf. also the month Apellaios).<ref>Fritz Graf, Apollo, p. 104-113. In any case, Burkert notes that there are components of various origins that can be discerned in his worship: a Dorian Greek, a Cretan-Minoan and a Syro-Hittite.<ref>Burkert, Greek Religion, Apollo, p.144</ref> According to the first opinion, both [[Greek mythology|Greek]] and [[Etruscan civilization|Etruscan]] Apollo came to the [[Aegean Sea|Aegean]] during the [[Iron Age]] (i.e. from c.1100 BCE to c. 800 BCE) from [[Anatolia]]. [[Homer]] pictures him on the side of the [[Trojan]]s, against the [[Achaean]]s, during the [[Trojan War]] and he has close affiliations with a [[Luwian]] deity, [[Apaliunas]], who in turn seems to have traveled west from further east. The [[Late Bronze Age]] (from 1700–1200 BCE) [[Hittites|Hittite]] and [[Hurrian]] ''Aplu'',<ref>Croft, John (2003) wrote in the [https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2003-May/009551.html Ancient Near East mail list hosted by the University of Chicago] that "Apollo does not have a Greek provenance but an Anatolian one. Luwian Apaliuna seems to have travelled west from further East. Hurrian Aplu was a god of the plague, and resembles the mouse god Apollo Smitheus. Hurrian Aplu itself seems derived from the Babylonian "Aplu" meaning a "son of" — a title that was given to the Babylonian plague God, Nergal (son of Enlil)"</ref> like the Homeric Apollo, was a god of [[Plague (disease)|plague]]s, and resembles the mouse god ''Apollo Smintheus''. Here we have an [[apotrope|apotropaic]] situation, where a god originally bringing the plague was invoked to end it, merging over time through fusion with the [[Mycenae]]an healer-god Paieon (PA-JA-WO in [[Linear B]]); [[Paean]], in Homer's ''[[Iliad]]'', was the Greek healer of the wounded gods [[Ares]] and [[Hades]]. In other writers, the word becomes a mere epithet of Apollo in his capacity as a god of [[healing]], but it is now known from Linear B that Paean was originally a separate deity.

Homer illustrated Paieon the god as well as the song both of [[apotropaic]] thanksgiving or triumph,<ref>See [[Paean]].</ref> and [[Hesiod]] also separated the two; in later poetry Paean was invoked independently as a god of healing. It is equally difficult to separate Paean or Paeon in the sense of "healer" from Paean in the sense of "song."

Such songs were originally addressed to Apollo, and afterwards to other gods, [[Dionysus]], [[Helios]], [[Asclepius]].. About the fourth century BCE, the paean became merely a formula of adulation; its object was either to implore protection against disease and misfortune, or to offer thanks after such protection had been rendered. It was in this way that Apollo had become recognised as the god of music. Apollo's role as the slayer of the [[Python (mythology)|Python]] led to his association with battle and victory; hence it became the Roman custom for a paean to be sung by an [[army]] on the march and before entering into battle, when a fleet left the harbour, and also after a victory had been won.

Apollo's links with oracles again seem to be associated with wishing to know the outcome of an illness. He is a god of music and the lyre. Healing belongs to his realm: he was the father of Asclepius, the god of [[medicine]]. The Muses are part of his retinue, so that [[music]], [[history]], [[poetry]] and [[dance]] all belong to him.

==Cult sites==
Unusually among the Olympic deities, Apollo had two cult sites that had widespread influence: [[Delos]] and [[Delphi]]. In cult practice, Delian Apollo and Pythian Apollo (the Apollo of Delphi) were so distinct that they might both have shrines in the same locality.<ref>Burkert 1985:143.</ref> [[Theophoric names]] such as ''Apollodorus'' or ''Apollonios'' and cities named [[Apollonia]] are met with throughout the Greek world. Apollo's [[Cult (religion)|cult]] was already fully established when written sources commenced, about 650 BCE.

===Oracular shrines===
Apollo had a famous [[oracle]] in Delphi, and other notable ones in [[Clarus]] and [[Branchidae]]. His oracular shrine in [[Abae]] in [[Phocis]], where he bore the [[toponym]]ic epithet ''[[Abaeus]]'' ({{polytonic|Ἀπόλλων Ἀβαῖος}}, ''Apollon Abaios'') was important enough to be consulted by [[Croesus]] ([[Herodotus]], 1.46).
His oracular shrines include:
* In [[Didyma]], an oracle on the coast of [[Anatolia]], south west of [[Lydia]]n ([[Luwian]]) [[Sardis]], in which priests from the lineage of the Branchidae received inspiration by drinking from a healing spring located in the temple.
* In [[Manbij|Hierapolis Bambyce]], Syria (modern Manbij), according to the treatise ''[[De Dea Syria]]'', the sanctuary of the [[Atargatis|Syrian Goddess]] contained a robed and bearded image of Apollo. Divination was based on spontaneous movements of this image.<ref>[[Lucian]] (attrib.), ''[[De Dea Syria]]'' [http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/tsg/tsg07.htm#35 35–37].</ref>
* In [[Delos]], there was an oracle to the Delian Apollo, during summer. The Hieron (Sanctuary) of Apollo adjacent to the Sacred Lake, was the place where the god was said to have been born.
* In [[Corinth]], the Oracle of Corinth came from the town of [[Tenea]], from prisoners supposedly taken in the Trojan War
* In [[Bassae]] in the [[Peloponnese]]
* In [[Abae]] in [[Phocis]]
* In [[Delphi]], the [[Pythia]] became filled with the ''[[pneuma]]'' of Apollo, said to come from a spring inside the [[Adyton]].
* At [[Patara]], in [[Lycia]], there was a seasonal winter oracle of Apollo, said to have been the place where the god went from Delos. As at Delphi the oracle at Patara was a woman.
* At [[Clarus]], on the west coast of [[Asia Minor]]; as at Delphi a holy spring which gave off a ''pneuma'', from which the priests drank.
* In [[Segesta]] in [[Sicily]]

Oracles were also given by sons of Apollo.
* In [[Oropus]], north of [[Athens]], the oracle [[Amphiaraus]], was said to be the son of Apollo; Oropus also had a sacred spring.
* in Labadea, {{convert|20|mi|km}} east of Delphi, [[Trophonius]], another son of Apollo, killed his brother and fled to the cave where he was also afterwards consulted as an oracle.

==Festivals==
The chief Apollonian festivals were the [[Boedromia]], [[Carneia]], Carpiae, [[Daphnephoria]], [[Delia (festival)|Delia]], [[Hyacinthia]], [[Metageitnia]], [[Pyanepsia]], [[Pythia]] and [[Thargelia]].

==Attributes and symbols==
[[Image:Apolocitaredo8.jpg|thumb|left|''[[Apollo Citharoedus]]'' ("Apollo with a kithara"), [[Musei Capitolini]], [[Rome]]]]
Apollo's most common attributes were the bow and [[arrow]]. Other attributes of his included the [[kithara]] (an advanced version of the common [[lyre]]), the [[plectrum]] and the sword. Another common emblem was the [[sacrificial tripod]], representing his prophetic powers. The [[Pythian Games]] were held in Apollo's honor every four years at [[Delphi]]. The bay [[laurel tree|laurel]] plant was used in expiatory sacrifices and in making the [[laurel wreath|crown of victory]] at these games. The [[palm tree|palm]] was also sacred to Apollo because he had been born under one in [[Delos]]. Animals sacred to Apollo included [[wolf|wolves]], [[dolphin]]s, [[roe deer]], [[swan]]s, [[cicada]]s (symbolizing music and [[song]]), [[hawk]]s, [[raven]]s, [[crow]]s, [[snake]]s (referencing Apollo's function as the god of prophecy), [[mice]] and [[griffin]]s, mythical eagle–lion hybrids of Eastern origin.

As god of colonization, Apollo gave oracular guidance on colonies, especially during the height of colonization, 750–550 BCE. According to Greek tradition, he helped [[Crete|Cretan]] or [[Arcadia]]n colonists found the city of [[Troy]]. However, this story may reflect a cultural influence which had the reverse direction: [[Hittites|Hittite]] [[Cuneiform script|cuneiform]] texts mention a Minor Asian god called ''Appaliunas'' or ''Apalunas'' in connection with the city of [[Wilusa]] attested in Hittite inscriptions, which is now generally regarded as being identical with the Greek [[Troy|Ilion]] by most scholars. In this interpretation, Apollo’s title of ''Lykegenes'' can simply be read as "born in Lycia", which effectively severs the god's supposed link with wolves (possibly a [[folk etymology]]).

In literary contexts, Apollo represents harmony, order, and reason—characteristics contrasted with those of [[Dionysus]], god of wine, who represents ecstasy and disorder. The contrast between the roles of these gods is reflected in the adjectives [[Apollonian and Dionysian]]. However, the Greeks thought of the two qualities as complementary: the two gods are brothers, and when Apollo at winter left for [[Hyperborea]], he would leave the Delphic oracle to Dionysus. This contrast appears to be shown on the two sides of the [[Borghese Vase]].

Apollo is often associated with the [[Golden mean (philosophy)|Golden Mean]]. This is the Greek [[ideal]] of [[moderation]] and a [[virtue]] that opposes [[gluttony]].

==Roman Apollo==
The Roman worship of Apollo was adopted from the Greeks. As a quintessentially [[List of Greek mythological figures|Greek god]], Apollo had no direct Roman equivalent, although later Roman poets often referred to him as [[Phoebus]]. There was a tradition that the Delphic oracle was consulted as early as the period of the [[Roman Kingdom|kings of Rome]] during the reign of [[Tarquinius Superbus]].<ref>[[Livy]] [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Liv.+1.56 1.56].</ref> On the occasion of a pestilence in the 430s BC, Apollo's [[Temple of Apollo Sosianus|first temple]] at Rome was established in the Flaminian fields, replacing an older cult site there known as the "Apollinare".<ref>Livy [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0026:book=3:chapter=63 3.63.7], [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0145:book=4:chapter=25 4.25.3].</ref> During the [[Second Punic War]] in 212 BC, the ''[[Ludi Apollinares]]'' ("Apollonian Games") were instituted in his honor, on the instructions of a prophecy attributed to one Marcius.<ref>Livy [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0147:book=25:chapter=12 25.12].</ref> In the time of [[Augustus]], who considered himself under the special protection of Apollo and was even said to be his son, his worship developed and he became one of the chief gods of Rome.<ref>{{cite book |author=J. H. W. G. Liebeschuetz |title=Continuity and Change in Roman Religion |year=1979 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=Oxford |isbn=0-19-814822-4 |pages=82–85 }}</ref> After the [[battle of Actium]], which was fought near a sanctuary of Apollo, Augustus enlarged Apollo's temple, dedicated a portion of the spoils to him, and instituted [[quinquennial]] games in his honour.<ref>[[Suetonius]], ''[[On the Life of the Caesars#Life of Augustus|Augustus]]'' [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html#18.2 18.2]; [[Cassius Dio]] [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/51*.html#1 51.1.1–3].</ref> He also erected [[Temple of Apollo (Palatine)|a new temple]] to the god on the [[Palatine Hill|Palatine hill]].<ref>Cassius Dio [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/53*.html#1.3 53.1.3].</ref> Sacrifices and prayers on the Palatine to Apollo and [[Diana (mythology)|Diana]] formed the culmination of the [[Secular Games]], held in 17 BCE to celebrate the dawn of a new era.<ref>''Inscriptiones Latinae Selectae'' 5050, translated by {{cite book |author=Mary Beard |authorlink=Mary Beard (classicist) |coauthors=John North and Simon Price |title=Religions of Rome: Volume 2: A Sourcebook |year=1998 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |location=Cambridge |isbn=0-521-45015-2 (hbk.); ISBN 0-521-45646-0 (pbk.) |page=5.7b }}</ref>

== In art ==
[[Image:Roman Statue of Apollo.jpg|thumb|left|Apollo (the "Adonis" of Centocelle), Roman after a Greek original ([[Ashmolean Museum]])]]

In art, Apollo is depicted as a handsome beardless young man, often with a [[kithara]] (as [[Apollo Citharoedus]]) or bow in his hand, or reclining on a tree (the [[Apollo Lykeios]] and [[Apollo Sauroctonos]] types). The [[Apollo Belvedere]] is a [[marble]] [[sculpture]] that was rediscovered in the late 15th century; for centuries it epitomized the ideals of [[Classical Antiquity]] for Europeans, from the [[Renaissance]] through the nineteenth century. The marble is a [[Hellenistic Greece|Hellenistic]] or Roman copy of a bronze original by the Greek sculptor [[Leochares]], made between 350 and 325 BC.

The lifesize so-called "[[Adonis]]" (shown at left) found in 1780 on the site of a ''[[Roman villa|villa suburbana]]'' near the [[Via Labicana]] in the Roman suburb of Centocelle and now in the [[Ashmolean Museum]], Oxford, is identified as an Apollo by modern scholars. It was probably never intended as a [[cult object]], but was a [[pastiche]] of several fourth-century and later Hellenistic model types, intended to please a Roman connoisseur of the second century AD, and to be displayed in his villa.

[[Image:Apollo1.JPG|thumb|right|Apollo with a radiant [[Halo (religious iconography)|halo]] in a Roman floor mosaic, [[El Djem]], Tunisia, late 2nd century]]

In the late second century CE floor mosaic from [[El Djem]], Roman ''Thysdrus'' (right), he is identifiable as [[Helios|Apollo Helios]] by his effulgent [[Halo (religious iconography)|halo]], though now even a god's divine [[nudity|nakedness]] is concealed by his cloak, a mark of increasing conventions of modesty in the later [[Roman Empire|Empire]]. Another haloed Apollo in mosaic, from [[Hadrumentum]], is in the museum at [[Sousse]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.tunisiaonline.com/mosaics/mosaic05b.html |title=http://www.tunisiaonline.com/mosaics/mosaic05b.html |accessdate= |format= |work= }}</ref> The conventions of this representation, head tilted, lips slightly parted, large-eyed, curling [[Hairstyle|hair cut]] in locks grazing the neck, were developed in the third century BCE to depict [[Alexander the Great]] (Bieber 1964, Yalouris 1980). Some time after this mosaic was executed, the earliest depictions of Christ will be beardless and haloed.

==Mythology==
===Birth===
When [[Hera]] discovered that Leto was pregnant and that Zeus was the father, she banned Leto from giving birth on "[[terra firma]]", or the mainland, or any [[island]]. In her wanderings, [[Leto]] found the newly created [[floating island]] of [[Delos]], which was neither mainland nor a real island, and she gave birth there. The island was surrounded by swans. Afterwards, Zeus secured Delos to the bottom of the ocean. This island later became sacred to Apollo.

It is also stated that Hera kidnapped [[Ilithyia]], the goddess of childbirth, to prevent Leto from going into labor. The other gods tricked Hera into letting her go by offering her a [[necklace]], nine yards (8 m) long, of [[amber]]. Mythographers agree that Artemis was born first and then assisted with the birth of Apollo, or that [[Artemis]] was born one day before Apollo, on the island of [[Ortygia]] and that she helped Leto cross the sea to Delos the next day to give birth to Apollo. Apollo was born on the seventh day ({{polytonic|ἡβδομαγενης}}) of the month Thargelion —according to Delian tradition— or of the month Bysios— according to Delphian tradition. The seventh and twentieth, the days of the new and [[full moon]], were ever afterwards held sacred to him.

=== Youth ===
Four days after his birth, Apollo killed the chthonic dragon [[Python (mythology)|Python]], which lived in [[Delphi]] beside the [[Castalian Spring]]. This was the spring which emitted vapors that caused the oracle at Delphi to give her prophesies. Hera sent the serpent to hunt Leto to her death across the world. In order to protect his mother, Apollo begged [[Hephaestus]] for a bow and arrows. After receiving them, Apollo cornered Python in the sacred cave at Delphi.<ref>''Children of the Gods'' by Kenneth McLeish, page 32.</ref> Apollo killed Python but had to be punished for it, since Python was a child of [[Gaia (mythology)|Gaia]].

Hera then sent the giant [[Tityos]] to kill Leto. This time Apollo was aided by his sister Artemis in protecting their mother. During the battle Zeus finally relented his aid and hurled Tityos down to [[Tartarus]]. There he was pegged to the rock floor, covering an area of {{convert|9|acre|m2}}, where a pair of [[vulture]]s feasted daily on his liver.

=== Admetus ===
When Zeus struck down Apollo's son Asclepius, with a lightning bolt for resurrecting [[Hippolytus (mythology)|Hippolytus]] from the dead (transgressing [[Themis]] by stealing [[Hades]]'s subjects), Apollo in revenge killed the [[Cyclops]], who had fashioned the bolt for Zeus. Apollo would have been banished to [[Tartarus]] forever, but was instead sentenced to one year of [[Penal labour|hard labor]] as punishment, thanks to the intercession of his mother, [[Leto]]. During this time he served as shepherd for [[Admetus|King Admetus]] of [[Pherae]] in [[Thessaly]]. Admetus treated Apollo well, and, in return, the god conferred great benefits on Admetus.

Apollo helped Admetus win [[Alcestis]], the daughter of [[Pelias|King Pelias]] and later convinced the [[Moirae|Fates]] to let Admetus live past his time, if another took his place. But when it came time for Admetus to die, his parents, whom he had assumed would gladly die for him, refused to cooperate. Instead, Alcestis took his place, but [[Heracles]] managed to "persuade" [[Thanatos]], the god of death, to return her to the world of the living.

=== Trojan War ===
Apollo shot arrows infected with the plague into the Greek encampment during the [[Trojan War]] in retribution for [[Agamemnon]]'s insult to [[Chryses]], a priest of Apollo whose daughter [[Chryseis]] had been captured. He demanded her return, and the Achaeans complied, indirectly causing the anger of Achilles, which is the theme of the ''[[Iliad]]''.

When [[Diomedes]] injured [[Aeneas]] (''[[Iliad]]''), Apollo rescued him. First, [[Aphrodite]] tried to rescue Aeneas but Diomedes injured her as well. Aeneas was then enveloped in a cloud by Apollo, who took him to Pergamos, a sacred spot in [[Troy]].

Apollo aided [[Paris (mythology)|Paris]] in the killing of [[Achilles]] by guiding the arrow of his bow into [[Achilles]]' heel. One interpretation of his motive is that it was in revenge for Achilles' sacrilege in murdering [[Troilus]], the god's own son by [[Hecuba]], on the very altar of the god's own temple.

=== Niobe ===
A queen of [[Thebes (Greece)|Thebes]] and wife of [[Amphion]], [[Niobe]] boasted of her superiority to Leto because she had fourteen children ([[Niobids]]), seven male and seven female, while Leto had only two. Apollo killed her sons as they practiced athletics, with the last begging for his life, and Artemis her daughters. Apollo and Artemis used poisoned arrows to kill them, though according to some versions of the myth, a number of the Niobids were spared ([[Chloris]], usually). Amphion, at the sight of his dead sons, either killed himself or was killed by Apollo after swearing revenge. A devastated Niobe fled to [[Spil Mount|Mount Sipylos]] in [[Asia Minor]] and turned into stone as she wept. Her tears formed the river [[Achelous]]. Zeus had turned all the people of Thebes to stone and so no one buried the Niobids until the ninth day after their death, when the gods themselves entombed them.

=== Consorts and children ===
Love affairs ascribed to Apollo are a late development in Greek mythology.<ref>""The love-stories themselves were not told until later." ([[Karl Kerenyi]], ''The Gods of the Greeks'' 1951:140.</ref> Their vivid anecdotal qualities have made some of them favourites of painters since the Renaissance, so that they stand out more prominently in the modern imagination.

====Female lovers====
{{main|Apollo and Daphne}}
In explanation of the connection of Apollon with ''daphne'', the [[Bay Laurel|Laurel]] whose leaves his priestess employed at [[Delphi]], it was told by [[Libanius]], a fourth-century CE teacher of rhetoric,<ref>Libanius, ''Narrationes''.</ref> that Apollo chased a nymph, [[Daphne]], daughter of [[Peneus]], who had scorned him. In [[Ovid]]'s telling for a Roman audience, Phoebus Apollo chaffs Cupid for toying with a man's weapon suited to a man, whereupon Cupid wounds him with an arrow with a golden dart; simultaneously, however, Eros had shot a leaden arrow into Daphne, causing her to be repulsed by Apollo. Following a spirited chase by Apollo, Daphne prayed to Mother Earth, or, alternatively, her father — a [[Sea and river deity|river god]] — to help her and he changed her into the Laurel tree, sacred to Apollo.

Apollo had an affair with a human princess named [[Leucothea]], daughter of [[Orchamus]] and sister of [[Clytia]]. Leucothea loved Apollo who disguised himself as Leucothea's mother to gain entrance to her chambers. Clytia, jealous of her sister because she wanted Apollo for herself, told Orchamus the truth, betraying her sister's trust and confidence in her. Enraged, Orchamus ordered Leucothea to be buried alive. Apollo refused to forgive Clytia for betraying his beloved, and a grieving Clytia wilted and slowly died. Apollo changed her into an incense plant, either heliotrope or sunflower, which follows the sun every day.

[[Marpessa]] was kidnapped by [[Idas]] but was loved by Apollo as well. [[Zeus]] made her choose between them, and she chose Idas on the grounds that Apollo, being immortal, would tire of her when she grew old.

[[Castalia]] was a [[nymph]] whom Apollo loved. She fled from him and dived into the [[castalian Spring|spring]] at Delphi, at the base of [[Mt. Parnassos]], which was then named after her. Water from this spring was sacred; it was used to clean the Delphian temples and inspire poets.

By [[Cyrene (mythology)|Cyrene]], Apollo had a son named [[Aristaeus]], who became the patron god of cattle, [[fruit trees]], hunting, husbandry and [[bee-keeping]]. He was also a [[culture-hero]] and taught humanity dairy skills and the use of nets and traps in hunting, as well as how to cultivate olives.

With [[Hecuba]], wife of King [[Priam]] of [[Troy]], Apollo had a son named [[Troilus]]. An [[oracle]] prophesied that Troy would not be defeated as long as Troilus reached the age of twenty alive. He was ambushed and killed by [[Achilles]].

Apollo also fell in love with [[Cassandra]], daughter of Hecuba and Priam, and Troilus' half-sister. He promised Cassandra the gift of prophecy to seduce her, but she rejected him afterwards. Enraged, Apollo indeed gifted her with the ability to know the future, with a curse that she could only see the future tragedies and that no one would ever believe her.

[[Coronis]], daughter of [[Phlegyas]], King of the [[Lapiths]], was another of Apollo's liaisons. Pregnant with [[Asclepius]], Coronis fell in love with [[Ischys]], son of [[Elatus]]. A crow informed Apollo of the affair. When first informed he disbelieved the crow and turned all crows black (where they were previously white) as a punishment for spreading untruths. When he found out the truth he sent his sister, Artemis, to kill Coronis (in other stories, Apollo himself had killed Coronis). As a result he also made the crow sacred and gave them the task of announcing important deaths. Apollo rescued the baby and gave it to the [[centaur]] [[Chiron]] to raise. Phlegyas was irate after the death of his daughter and burned the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. Apollo then killed him for what he did.

In [[Euripides]]' play ''[[Ion (play)|Ion]]'', Apollo fathered [[Ion (mythology)|Ion]] by [[Creusa]], wife of [[Xuthus]]. Creusa left Ion to die in the wild, but Apollo asked [[Hermes]] to save the child and bring him to the oracle at [[Delphi]], where he was raised by a priestess.

One of his other liaisons was with [[Acantha]], the spirit of the [[Acanthus (genus)|acanthus]] tree. Upon her death, Apollo transformed her into a sun-loving herb.

====Male lovers====
[[Image:Hyacinthus.jpg|thumb|''Apollo and Hyacinthus'' Jacopo Caraglio; 16th c. Italian engraving]]

Apollo, the eternal beardless [[kouros]] himself, had the most prominent male relationships of all the [[Greek Gods]]. That might be expected from a god who was god of the [[palaestra]], the athletic gathering place for youth who all competed [[Nudity in sport|in the nude]]. Many of Apollo's male lovers suffer tragic deaths resulting from accidents.

[[Hyacinth (mythology)|Hyacinth]] (or Hyacinthus) was one of his male lovers. Hyacinthus was a [[Sparta]]n prince, beautiful and athletic. The pair were practicing throwing the [[Discus throw|discus]] when a discus thrown by Apollo was blown off course by the jealous [[Zephyrus]] and struck Hyacinthus in the head and killing him instantly. When Hyacinthus died, Apollo is said to be filled with grief and in anger at Zephyrus, transformed him into the wind so that he could never touch or speak to anyone again. Out of Hyacinthus' blood, Apollo created a [[hyacinth (plant)|flower]] named after him as a memorial to his death, and his tears stained the flower petals with ''άί'' ''άί'', meaning alas. The Festival of Hyacinthus was a celebration of Sparta.

Another male lover was [[Cyparissus]], a descendant of [[Heracles]]. Apollo gave him a tame deer as a companion but Cyparissus accidentally killed it with a [[Pilum|javelin]] as it lay asleep in the undergrowth. Cyparissus asked Apollo to let his tears fall forever. Apollo granted the request by turning him into the [[Cupressaceae|tree]] named after him, which was said to be a sad tree because the sap forms droplets like tears on the trunk.

=== Birth of Hermes ===
[[Hermes]] was born on [[Mount Kyllini|Mount Cyllene]] in Arcadia. The story is told in the [[Homeric Hymn]] to [[Hermes]]. His mother, [[Maia (mythology)|Maia]], had been secretly impregnated by [[Zeus]]. Maia wrapped the infant in blankets but Hermes escaped while she was asleep. Hermes ran to [[Thessaly]], where Apollo was grazing his cattle. The infant Hermes stole a number of his cows and took them to a cave in the woods near [[Pylos]], covering their tracks. In the cave, he found a [[tortoise]] and killed it, then removed the insides. He used one of the cow's intestines and the tortoise shell and made the first [[lyre]]. Apollo complained to Maia that her son had stolen his cattle, but Hermes had already replaced himself in the blankets she had wrapped him in, so Maia refused to believe Apollo's claim. Zeus intervened and, claiming to have seen the events, sided with Apollo. Hermes then began to play music on the lyre he had invented. Apollo, a god of music, fell in love with the instrument and offered to allow exchange of the cattle for the lyre. Hence, Apollo became a master of the lyre.

=== Other stories ===
Apollo gave the order through the Oracle at Delphi, for [[Orestes (mythology)|Orestes]] to kill his mother, [[Clytemnestra]], and her lover, [[Aegisthus]]. Orestes was punished fiercely by the [[Erinyes]] (the [[Furies]], [[female]] personifications of [[revenge|vengeance]]) for this crime. Relentlessly pursued by the Furies, Orestes asked for the intercession of [[Athena]], who decreed that he be tried by a [[jury]] of his [[Peer group|peer]]s, with Apollo acting as his attorney.

In the [[Odyssey]], [[Odysseus]] and his surviving crew landed on an island sacred to Helios the sun god, where he kept sacred cattle. Though Odysseus warned his men not to (as [[Tiresias]] and [[Circe]] had told him), they killed and ate some of the cattle and Helios had [[Zeus]] destroy the ship and all the men, except [[Odysseus]].

Apollo also had a [[lyre]]-playing contest with [[Cinyras]], his son, who [[Suicide|committed suicide]] when he lost.

Apollo killed the [[Aloadae]] when they attempted to storm [[Mount Olympus (Mountain)|Mt. Olympus]].

It was also said that Apollo rode on the back of a swan to the land of the [[Hyperboreans]] during the winter months, a swan that he also lent to his beloved Hyacinthus to ride.

Apollo turned [[Cephissus]] into a [[sea monster]].

==== Musical contests ====
===== Pan =====
Once [[Pan (mythology)|Pan]] had the audacity to compare his music with that of Apollo, and to challenge Apollo, the god of the [[kithara]], to a trial of skill. [[Tmolus]], the mountain-god, was chosen to umpire. Pan blew on his pipes, and with his rustic melody gave great satisfaction to himself and his faithful follower, [[Midas]], who happened to be present. Then Apollo struck the strings of his lyre. Tmolus at once awarded the victory to Apollo, and all but Midas agreed with the judgment. He dissented, and questioned the justice of the award. Apollo would not suffer such a depraved pair of ears any longer, and caused them to become the ears of a [[donkey]].

===== Marsyas =====
[[Image:TItian - The Flaying of Marsyas.jpg|thumb|''The Flaying of Marsyas'' by [[Titian]], c.1570–76.]]
Apollo has ominous aspects aside from his plague-bringing, death-dealing arrows: [[Marsyas]] was a [[satyr]] who challenged Apollo to a contest of music. He had found an [[aulos]] on the ground, tossed away after being invented by [[Athena]] because it made her cheeks puffy. The contest was judged by the [[Muse]]s. After they each performed, both were deemed equal until Apollo decreed they play and sing at the same time. As Apollo played the [[lyre]], this was easy to do. Marsyas could not do this as he only knew how to use the flute and could not sing at the same time. Apollo was declared the winner because of this. Apollo [[flaying|flayed]] Marsyas alive in a cave near [[Celaenae]] in [[Phrygia]] for his [[hubris]] to challenge a god. He then nailed Marsyas' shaggy skin to a nearby pine-tree. Marsyas' blood turned into the river [[Marsyas (river)|Marsyas]].

Another variation is that Apollo played his instrument (the lyre) upside down. Marsyas could not do this with his instrument (the [[flute]]), and so Apollo hung him from a tree and flayed him alive.<ref>''Man Myth and Magic'' by Richard Cavendish</ref>

== Graeco–Roman epithets and cult titles ==
Apollo, like other Greek deities, had a number of [[epithet]]s applied to him, reflecting the variety of roles, duties, and aspects ascribed to the god. However, while Apollo has a great number of appellations in Greek myth, only a few occur in [[Latin literature]], chief among them '''[[Phoebus]]''' ("shining one"), which was very commonly used by both the Greeks and Romans in Apollo's role as the god of light.

In Apollo's role as healer, his appellations included '''Akesios''', '''Iatros''', and '''[[Acestor]]'''<ref>[[Euripides]], ''[[Andromache (play)|Andromache]]'' 901</ref> meaning "healer". He was also called '''[[Alexicacus]]''' ("restrainer of evil") and '''Apotropaeus''' ("he who averts evil"), and was referred to by the Romans as '''Averruncus''' ("averter of evils"). As a plague god and defender against rats and locusts, Apollo was known as '''Smintheus''' ("mouse-catcher") and '''Parnopius''' ("grasshopper"). The Romans also called Apollo '''Culicarius''' ("driving away [[midge (insect)|midges]]"). In his healing aspect, the Romans referred to Apollo as '''Medicus''' ("the Physician"), and a [[Roman temple|temple]] was dedicated to ''Apollo Medicus'' at Rome, probably next to the temple of [[Bellona]]. As a sun-god he was worshiped as '''Aegletes''', the radiant god.<ref>[[Apollonius of Rhodes]], iv. 1730</ref><ref>[[Apollodorus]], i. 9. § 26</ref>

As a god of archery, Apollo was known as '''Aphetoros''' ("god of the bow") and '''Argurotoxos''' ("with the silver bow"). The Romans referred to Apollo as '''Articenens''' ("carrying the bow") as well. As a pastoral shepherd-god, Apollo was known as '''Nomios''' ("wandering"). As the protector of roads and homes he was '''[[Agyieus]]'''.

Apollo was also known as '''Archegetes''' ("director of the foundation"), who oversaw colonies. He was known as '''Klarios''', from the Doric ''klaros'' ("allotment of land"), for his supervision over cities and colonies.

He was known as '''Delphinios''' ("Delphinian"), meaning "of the womb", in his association with ''Delphoi'' ([[Delphi]]). At Delphi, he was also known as '''Pythios''' ("Pythian"). An [[aitiology]] in the [[Homeric hymns]] connects the epitheton to [[dolphin]]s. '''Kynthios''', another common epithet, stemmed from his birth on Mt. [[Cynthus]]. He was also known as '''Lyceios''' or '''Lykegenes''', which either meant "[[wolf]]ish" or "of [[Lycia]]", Lycia being the place where some postulate that his cult originated.

Specifically as god of prophecy, Apollo was known as '''Loxias''' ("the obscure"). He was also known as '''Coelispex''' ("he who watches the heavens") to the Romans. Apollo was attributed the epithet '''Musagetes''' as the leader of the [[muse]]s, and '''Nymphegetes''' as "[[nymph]]-leader".

'''Acesius''' was the epithet of Apollo worshipped in [[Elis]], where he had a temple in the [[agora]]. This surname, which has the same meaning as ''akestor'' and ''alezikakos'', characterized the god as the averter of evil.<ref name=Smith>"Acesius". ''Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology''. London, 1880. </ref> '''Acraephius''' or '''Acraephiaeus''' was his epithet worshipped in the [[Boeotia]]n town of Acraephia, reputedly founded by his son, [[Acraepheus]]. '''Actiacus''' was his epithet in [[Actium]], one of the principal places of his worship.<ref>[[Ovid]], ''[[Metamorphoses]]'' xiii. 715</ref><ref>[[Strabo]], x. p. 451</ref>

== Celtic epithets and cult titles ==
* Apollo was worshipped throughout the [[Roman Empire]]. In the traditionally [[Celtic nations|Celtic]] lands he was most often seen as a healing and sun god. He was often equated with [[List of Celtic gods|Celtic gods]] of similar character. <ref>''Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend'', Miranda J. Green, Thames and Hudson Ltd, 1997</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Atepomarus]]''' ("the great horseman" or "possessing a great horse"). Apollo was worshipped at [[Mauvières]] ([[Indre]]) under this name. Horses were, in the Celtic world, closely linked to the sun. <ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum XIII, 1863–1986</ref><ref>Pagan Celtic Britain, A. Ross, 1967</ref><ref>The Gods of the Celts, M.J. Green, 1986, London</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Belenus]]''' ('bright' or 'brilliant'). This epithet was given to Apollo in parts of [[Gaul]], North [[Italy]] and [[Noricum]] (part of modern [[Austria]]. Apollo Belenus was a healing and sun god. <ref>Fontes Historiae Religionis Celticae, J. Zwicker, 1934–36, Berlin</ref><ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum V, XI, XII, XIII</ref><ref>''Le culte de Belenos en Provence occidentale et en Gaule'', Ogam (vol 6), J. Gourcest, 1954</ref><ref>''Le cheval sacre dans la Gaule de l'Est'', Revue archeologique de l'Est et du Centre-Est (vol 2), E. Thevonot, 1951</ref><ref>''Temoignages du culte de l'Apollon gaulois dans l'Helvetie romaine'', Revue celtique (vol 51), 1934</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Cunomaglus]]''' ('hound lord'). A title given to Apollo at a shrine in [[Wiltshire]]. Apollo Cunomaglus may have been a god of healing. Cunomaglus himself may originally have been an independent healing god. <ref>The Excavation of the Shrine of Apollo at Nettleton, Whilshire 1956–1971, Society of Antiquaries of London</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Grannus]]'''. Grannus was a healing spring god, later equated with Apollo <ref>The Celtic Heritage in Hungary, M. Szabo, 1971, Budapest</ref><ref name=thevonat>Divinites et sanctuaires de la Gaule, E. Thevonat, 1968, Paris</ref><ref name=devries>La religion des Celtes, J. de Vries, 1963, Paris</ref>

* '''Apollo Maponus'''. A god known from inscriptions in Britain. This may a local fusion of Apollo and [[Maponus]].

* '''[[Apollo Moritasgus]]''' ('masses of sea water'). An epithet for Apollo at Alesia, where he was worshipped as god of healing and, possibly, of physicians. <ref><Alesia, archeologie et histoire, J. Le Gall, 1963, Paris</ref>

* '''[[Apollo Vindonnus]]''' ('clear light'). Apollo Vindonnus had a temple at [[Essarois]], near [[Chatillon-sur-Seine]] in [[Bourgogne|Burgundy]]. He was a god of healing, especially of the eyes. <ref name=thevonat/>

* '''[[Apollo Virotutis]]''' ('benefactor of mankind?'). Apollo Virotutis was worshipped, among other places, at Fins d'Annecy ([[Haute-Savoie]]) and at [[Jublains]] ([[Maine-et-Loire]]) <ref name=devries/><ref>Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum XIII</ref>

==Reception==
Apollo has often featured in postclassical art and literature. [[Percy Bysshe Shelley]] composed a "Hymn of Apollo" (1820), and the god's instruction of the Muses formed the subject of [[Igor Stravinsky]]'s ''[[Apollon musagète]]'' (1927–1928). The name Apollo was given to [[NASA]]'s [[Apollo program|Apollo Lunar program]] in the 1960s.

The statue of Apollo from the west pediment of the [[Temple of Zeus]] at [[Olympia, Greece|Olympia]] (currently in the [[Olympia Archaeological Museum]]) was depicted on the [[Obverse and reverse|obverse]] of the Greek 1000 [[Greek drachma|drachmas]] banknote of 1987–2001.<ref>[http://www.bankofgreece.gr/en Bank of Greece]. Drachma Banknotes & Coins: [http://www.bankofgreece.gr/en/Banknotes/banknote_selection.asp?Value=1.000 1000 drachmas]. – Retrieved on 27 March 2009.</ref>

==Media==
*[[Media:Apollo and Hyacinth - wiki.ogg|1. ''Apollo and Hyacinthus,'' read by Timothy Carter]]

== References ==
* {{1911 |article=Apollo |author=John Henry Freese |url=http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tim_Starling/ScanSet_TIFF_demo&vol=02&page=EB2A196}}

== Further reading ==
===Primary sources===
*[[Homer]], ''Iliad'' ii.595–600 (c. 700 BCE)
*[[Sophocles]], ''Oedipus Rex''
*[[Palaephatus]], ''On Unbelievable Tales'' 46. Hyacinthus (330 BCE)
*[[Apollodorus]], ''Library'' 1.3.3 (140 BCE)
*[[Ovid]], ''Metamorphoses'' 10. 162–219 (1–8 CE)
*[[Pausanias (geographer)|Pausanias]], ''Description of Greece'' 3.1.3, 3.19.4 (160–176 CE)
*[[Philostratus the Elder]], ''Images'' i.24 Hyacinthus (170–245 CE)
*[[Philostratus the Younger]], ''Images'' 14. Hyacinthus (170–245 CE)
*[[Lucian]], ''Dialogues of the Gods'' 14 (170 CE)
*[[First Vatican Mythographer]], 197. Thamyris et Musae

===Secondary sources===
* M. Bieber, 1964. ''Alexander the Great in Greek and Roman Art'' (Chicago)
*[[Walter Burkert]], 1985. ''Greek Religion'' (Harvard University Press) III.2.5 ''passim''
*[[Robert Graves]], 1960. ''The Greek Myths'', revised edition (Penguin)
*Miranda J. Green, ''Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend'', Thames and Hudson Ltd, 1997
*[[Karl Kerenyi]], ''Apollon: Studien über Antiken Religion und Humanität'' rev. ed. 1953.
*Karl Kerenyi , 1951 ''The Gods of the Greeks''
* [[Pauly–Wissowa]], ''Realencyclopädie der klassischen Altertumswissenschaft'': II, "Apollon". The best repertory of cult sites (Burkert).
*Pfeiff, K.A., 1943. ''Apollon: Wandlung seines Bildes in der griechischen Kunst''. Traces the changing iconography of Apollo.
* [[William Smith (lexicographer)]], ''[[Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology]]'', 1870, article on Apollo,<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0239.html |title=http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0239.html |accessdate= |format= |work= }}</ref>
* N. Yalouris, 1980. ''The Search for Alexander'' (Boston) Exhibition.

==Notes==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==
{{commons|Apollo}}
* [http://www.maicar.com/GML/Apollo.html Apollo] at the Greek Mythology Link, by Carlos Parada

{{Greek religion}}
{{Roman religion}}

[[Category:Apollo| ]]
[[Category:Greek mythology]]
[[Category:Greek gods]]
[[Category:Twelve Olympians]]
[[Category:Roman gods]]
[[Category:Oracular gods]]
[[Category:Health gods]]
[[Category:Solar gods]]
[[Category:Arts gods]]
[[Category:Muses]]
[[Category:Offspring of Zeus]]
[[Category:Deities in the Iliad]]
[[Category:Culture heroes]]

{{Link FA|es}}
{{Link FA|ia}}

[[ar:أبولو (إله إغريقي)]]
[[bn:আপোল্লো]]
[[bs:Apolon]]
[[bg:Аполон]]
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[[ko:아폴론]]
[[hi:अपोलो]]
[[hr:Apolon]]
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[[he:אפולו]]
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[[ta:அப்போலோ]]
[[th:อพอลโล]]
[[tl:Apollo]]
[[vi:Apollo]]
[[tr:Apollon]]
[[uk:Аполлон]]
[[ur:اپالو]]
[[zh-yue:阿波羅]]
[[zh:阿波罗]]

User talk:Giorgos Tzimas

2009-06-22T18:11:11Z

3rdAlcove:

:<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: black; ">Greek[http://www.greekfontsociety.gr/GFS_GAZIS.zip |fonts] to view the page properly</div>
{{ombox
|image=none
|style=background: green;
|textstyle=color: white; text-align: center;
|text=
:[[Image:Sun dingbat.png|60px|center]]

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: white; ">Ο ΜΟΤΣΑΡΤ</div>
<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Ὁ Μότσαρτ μ᾿ ἕνα μαῦρο σκύλο τριγυρίζει τά
καμμένα σπίτια.
Ψάχνει κεῖ μέσα στὴν καφτὴ τέφρα καὶ τὴν καρβουνίλα.
Σὲ μερικὲς γωνιὲς δὲν ἔχουν ἀκόμη σβήσει οἱ φωτιές...-παράξενο -λέει- ΠΟΥΘΕΝΑ ΔΕΝ ΑΚΟΥΓΕΤΑΙ
ΠΙΑ Η ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ ΜΟΥ...
[[Miltos Sachtouris|Μίλτος Σαχτούρης]] (1919-2005)</div>

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: white; ">MOZART</div>
<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Mozart with a black dog by his side rambles among
the burnt houses.
He delves into hot ashes and
cinders
In some corners, pockets of fire are still burning...
-how strange -he mutters- MY MUSIC IS NOWHERE TO BE HEARD
ANYMORE...
[[Miltos Sachtouris|Miltos Sahtouris]] (1919-2005)</div>

[[Image:Page ruler.png|240px|center]]

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">"...We have often witnessed peoples, societies and nations outside the Western world – and I can identify with them easily – succumbing to fears that sometimes lead them to commit stupidities, all because of their fears of humiliation and their sensitivities. I also know that in the West – a world with which I can identify with the same ease – nations and peoples taking an excessive pride in their wealth, and in their having brought us the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and Modernism, have, from time to time, succumbed to a self-satisfaction that is almost as stupid."

excerpt from [[Orhan Pamuk]]'s ''Nobel lecture''</div>

[[Image:Page ruler.png|240px|center]]

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">"Δύο ποιοῦ καιροὺς τοῦ λέγειν, ἢ περὶ ὧν οἷσθα σαφῶς, ἢ περὶ ὧν ἀναγκαῖον εἰπεῖν. Ἐν τούτοις γὰρ μόνοις ὀ λόγος τῆς σιγῆς κρείττων, ἐν δὲ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἄμεινον σιγᾶν ἢ λέγειν."</div>

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Let there be but two occasions for speech --when the subject is one which you thoroughly know and when it is one on which you are compelled to speak. On these occasions alone is speech better than silence; on all others, it is better to be silent than to speak.

[[Isocrates]] ''Ad Demonicum'', 1.42.5
[[Image:Leaf outline.png|70px|center]]

</div>}}

== Την έκπτωση θα μας την κάνεις τελικά; ;) ==

Ε;

Μήπως έχω στείλει κι εγώ κανένα παρόμοιο μήνυμα; Όλο κάτι περίεργα σπαμ μου έρχονται τελευταία... [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 18:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Giorgos Tzimas

2009-06-22T18:10:07Z

3rdAlcove: /* Την έκπτωση θα μας την κάνεις τελικά; ;) */ new section

:<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: black; ">Greek[http://www.greekfontsociety.gr/GFS_GAZIS.zip |fonts] to view the page properly</div>
{{ombox
|image=none
|style=background: green;
|textstyle=color: white; text-align: center;
|text=
:[[Image:Sun dingbat.png|60px|center]]

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: white; ">Ο ΜΟΤΣΑΡΤ</div>
<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Ὁ Μότσαρτ μ᾿ ἕνα μαῦρο σκύλο τριγυρίζει τά
καμμένα σπίτια.
Ψάχνει κεῖ μέσα στὴν καφτὴ τέφρα καὶ τὴν καρβουνίλα.
Σὲ μερικὲς γωνιὲς δὲν ἔχουν ἀκόμη σβήσει οἱ φωτιές...-παράξενο -λέει- ΠΟΥΘΕΝΑ ΔΕΝ ΑΚΟΥΓΕΤΑΙ
ΠΙΑ Η ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ ΜΟΥ...
[[Miltos Sachtouris|Μίλτος Σαχτούρης]] (1919-2005)</div>

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: center; color: white; ">MOZART</div>
<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Mozart with a black dog by his side rambles among
the burnt houses.
He delves into hot ashes and
cinders
In some corners, pockets of fire are still burning...
-how strange -he mutters- MY MUSIC IS NOWHERE TO BE HEARD
ANYMORE...
[[Miltos Sachtouris|Miltos Sahtouris]] (1919-2005)</div>

[[Image:Page ruler.png|240px|center]]

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">"...We have often witnessed peoples, societies and nations outside the Western world – and I can identify with them easily – succumbing to fears that sometimes lead them to commit stupidities, all because of their fears of humiliation and their sensitivities. I also know that in the West – a world with which I can identify with the same ease – nations and peoples taking an excessive pride in their wealth, and in their having brought us the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and Modernism, have, from time to time, succumbed to a self-satisfaction that is almost as stupid."

excerpt from [[Orhan Pamuk]]'s ''Nobel lecture''</div>

[[Image:Page ruler.png|240px|center]]

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">"Δύο ποιοῦ καιροὺς τοῦ λέγειν, ἢ περὶ ὧν οἷσθα σαφῶς, ἢ περὶ ὧν ἀναγκαῖον εἰπεῖν. Ἐν τούτοις γὰρ μόνοις ὀ λόγος τῆς σιγῆς κρείττων, ἐν δὲ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἄμεινον σιγᾶν ἢ λέγειν."</div>

<div style="padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 10em; padding-right: 10em; text-align: left; color: white; ">Let there be but two occasions for speech --when the subject is one which you thoroughly know and when it is one on which you are compelled to speak. On these occasions alone is speech better than silence; on all others, it is better to be silent than to speak.

[[Isocrates]] ''Ad Demonicum'', 1.42.5
[[Image:Leaf outline.png|70px|center]]

</div>}}

== Την έκπτωση θα μας την κάνεις τελικά; ;) ==

Ε;

Μήπως έχω στείλει κι εγώ κανένα παρόμοιο μήνυμα; Όλο κάτι περίεργα σπαμ μου έρχονται τελευταία...

User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise

2009-06-22T18:01:19Z

3rdAlcove:

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'''Note: If you leave a message here I will most often respond here'''

== An image ==

Sorry to annoy you once more, but could you check out [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%89%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5_1941.jpg this image]? Part of the FUR says "It is of much lower resolution than the original" which is confusing considering the size. Also, the source seems to be a book published in Bulgaria in 1941, which wouldn't be a reliable source, would it? Thanks in advance, '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]'''

== Macedonians (Greeks) ==

I nominated the article for deletion: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Macedonians (Greeks)]]. Cheers!--

== Aaegean Macedonians vs Greek Macedonians/Bulgarian Macedonians ==

Hi Moreschi,

I want an explanation as to why [[Aegean Macedonians]] are forced into the article [[Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia]], while [[Macedonians (Greek)| Greek Macedonians]] and [[Macedonians (Bulgarians)| Bulgarian Macedonians]] get to have their own article instead of being within the article [[Macedonia (Greece)]] and [[Blagoevgrad Province]], respectfully?

Mactruth

== centralized discussion ==

Anyhow, thanks for the offer Palpatin :)
I am really am very unhappy about the treatment I am getting but I got used to it
I really don't know what to do now. Even in talk pages I am asked to shut my mouth. Is this supposed to be a neutral discussion? Just to answer to different threads it takes me hours (check the time signatures and consider the timezones too).
I have to be able to present my arguments somehow. Please try to capture the essence of them. I can't express them in any fewer words
Could you please explain why you had to censor that much of my edits in the arguments?
Especially why did you remove the reliable source (dictionary of contemporary English) that I used to support my argument?

== South Korea page ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prostitution_in_South_Korea#Question_about_2008_content_that_was_removed FYI], would you mind weighing in on the talk there? Thanks! [[User:Rootology|rootology]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|C]])([[User talk:Rootology|T]]) 16:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

== Need your help ==

Hi, Fut, [[User:Factuarius]] started again [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cham_Albanians&diff=296594478&oldid=296591910 editing pages with misciting authors, and not willing to discuss]]. Please, can you help me?[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 18:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

:What I edit is fully documented from already mentioning in the article sources. Why can mention a part of a book and not another one. Who can deside what part we can mention and what cannot? Every phrase of my editing is part of that books. Every word someone editing in that article is leading directly to an edit war from these 3 fellow Albanians who consider the article their property that nobody else can edit.--[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 19:00, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Balkanian`s word accuse me in misciting authors but this is totally untrue. Most of my text is almost word-by-word part of the original book's text. Since their pages are mentioning in my references he can check my references.--[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 19:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

:Shall you please help me Fut.? It seems that Factuarius cannot click edit on [[Talk:Cham Albanians]], but just can undo and POV. Please take a look on [[Talk:Cham Albanians]] and [[User talk:Factuarius]].[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Balkanian`s word please help yourself by reading more careful the noted pages. You tell me again and again that you cannot find the references, but are there. Read again the pages what else can I do about? --[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 12:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Factuarious until now you have brought no RS, just texts from greek authors. That is [[WP:POV]]. When you do that, then we'll start discussing the issue. --[[User:Sarandioti|Sarandioti]] ([[User talk:Sarandioti|talk]]) 13:06, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

:No Sir, Owen Pearson and Bernd J. Fischer are not greek authors. As for Manta, is one of 23 greek authors already mentioned in the article before my editing. The issue is what you and Balkanian want to mention about their books and what you don't want, I believe. But in that way we write fiction not history. Is that what you want?--[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 13:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Just a matter of protocol first, Factuarius: it is very impolite to make multiple editings in a row fiddling with your own text on somebody else's talk page, because it may bring up the "yellow bar of death" multiple times, which is bothersome. Please review your edits by using the "preview" button, and then send them off ''once''. As for the dispute, I haven't got much time for dealing with it. I might have a look at it later; until then, I'd suggest you both take your debate off my talk page. Thanks, --[[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

yellow bar of death?--[[User:Sarandioti|Sarandioti]] ([[User talk:Sarandioti|talk]]) 13:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

:I only answered Balkanian`s & Sarandioti's accusations they in parallel running both here and in the Chams discussion page. But now they are not answering in the Chams discussion page although they called me to discuss there the issue. Sorry for the trouble, I will do so in both suggestions. --[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 13:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== Acropolis Museum ==

Hello! I am thinking that it would be good to transfer the page of the New Acropolis Museum to "Acropolis Museum" because it is about to open on 20 June. I redirected the page of the obsolete museum to "Old Acropolis Museum" but the "Acropolis Museum" is already used. Could you delete that page in order to redirect "New ~" to "Acropolis Museum"? [[User:Dimboukas|Dimboukas]] ([[User talk:Dimboukas|talk]]) 21:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

: Sorry, I'll be without admin tools for a small while. I've listed your request at [[WP:RM]], I'm sure it will soon be processed. Great news about the museum, can't wait to see it. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== New usage data ==

FYI: [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/MOSMAC2#Analysis of usage by topic area]]. Happy to discuss. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 21:48, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== Vlado Janevski Image ==

Yeah, but the whole thing it is how can I make an image free on wikipedia I can't understand that... can you help me.. For example what if I find some Vlado image from I don't know blog or his official website... so for putting on wiki what should I doooooOOO and make the picture non copyrighted... btw If I write something about his albums in the Vlado Janevski article can we keep the picture??? Greetings --1111tomica (talk) 16:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)1111tomica--1111tomica (talk) 16:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ahha... and what about if in his article a write a little bit about his album "Povtorno Se Zaljubuvam Vo Tebe" will I than be aloud to keep the picture I mean the cover in th article??? --[[User:1111tomica|1111tomica]] ([[User talk:1111tomica#top|talk]]) 16:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)1111tomica--[[User:1111tomica|1111tomica]] ([[User talk:1111tomica#top|talk]]) 16:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

== Turkish names of Greek islands ==

Dear Future Perfect at Sunrise

If this electronic encyclopedia is free, Turkish names of Greek island will be written. Your disinterestedness about these names can not be a valid excuse. If it is valid then I has the disinterestedness about former names of Turkish places and I want to erase them from Turkish names. Sincerely,--[[User:Cemsentin1|Cemsentin1]] ([[User talk:Cemsentin1|talk]]) 18:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

== Multiple personality disorder ==

Apparently you're the same person as {{user|PRRfan}} and Heimstern and many more! [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Greater_and_Lesser_Tunbs&diff=296815950&oldid=296786027] I suppose this makes you a one-person "gung"{{sic}}... -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 00:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
:Hi, other me. [[User:Heimstern|Future Heimstern at Läufer?]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(ummm...)]] 13:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
::Hi there, "undoed"! (Does that make you totally uncool?) ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 13:59, 18 June 2009 (UTC))
:::No, it makes him a zombie. ;) [[User:Kafka Liz|Kafka Liz]] ([[User talk:Kafka Liz|talk]]) 14:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
:::: That would be "[[:nl:Ondood|ondood]]", wouldn't it? But maybe yes, that's not too bad a description for my current zombie-admin status. (/me growls in a deep voice: "Tooools....! Tooools ...!") [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 14:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== A copyright issue. ==

Hi, you seem to have the experience. Unusual assertions about government corruption and too much focus on smuggling attracted my attention in [[2001 insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia]]. The first two sections were copy-pasted from [http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_384.shtml this source] (which, eitherway, seems to me of questonable value). Haven't checked the rest. Can you deal with it ? Thanks.--[[User:Δρακόλακκος|Δρακόλακκος]] ([[User talk:Δρακόλακκος|talk]]) 12:03, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== Psikxas ==

Hi, '''Fut.Perf'''. There've been some new developments with regard to the apparent fraud; I've [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Looks_pretty_criminal_to_me_.E2.80.93_Greek_editor_needed|updated]] the discussion at ANI. If this isn't the first report I've made at ANI, it's the first in recent memory; what happens now? Thanks, —[[User:Scheinwerfermann|Scheinwerfermann]] [[User_talk:Scheinwerfermann|T]]·[[Special:Contributions/Scheinwerfermann|C]]18:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== Chams ==

Hi, Fut, please take part on the discussion on [[Talk:Cham Albanians]].[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi fut.. A typical suspect [[User:Sarandioti]] just made a renaming (twice) on the [[Tsamiko]] article. Can You take an eye on that plz.. Off course this move is without a single source. [[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 20:48, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

What source do I need on that?? It is a dance of albanian origin, danced also by greeks. So why should we use the greek names on a dance that means in english dance of the chams?!?!?!? --[[User:Sarandioti|Sarandioti]] ([[User talk:Sarandioti|talk]]) 21:20, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The name itself does not make things clear about the origin. Actually, it makes nothing clear. Etymology and origin dont go necessary together.[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 22:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

:No, thats the [[Dance of Osman Taka]], which is '''a''' Cham dance, but not '''the''' Cham dance (aka Tsamiko).[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 14:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

::Wait I have to see it again, cause I do not have a sound device on my comp, and I just saw the valle, which was like the dance of osman taka. I will tell you in about 3 hours, exactely.[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 17:17, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

== Cases where disambiguation of Macedonia is definately not needed. ==

If you have any additions for the "set of occasions" in proposal B please share them. [[User:Shadowmorph|Shadowmorph]] [[User talk:Shadowmorph|^"^]] 22:28, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

== Etymology ==

Pls give me the link of the discussion you refered to that the community decided not to inlcude the etymology of the word "Macedonian". Im new here and didnt manage to find it. Thanks. [[User:Psikxas|Psikxas]] ([[User talk:Psikxas|talk]]) 00:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

::And please, dont accuse me as if i provided a "naive pseudo-etymology". Try to translate thsi abstract from the Greek Wikipedia. If needed, i can provide more refferences. "Έχοντας κατά νου την πορεία αυτού του λαού επιστρέφουμε στην ετυμολογία του ονόματος Μακεδονία και Μακεδών.Προέρχεται από το Μακ+δων που σημαίνει ψηλή γη και κατ΄επέκταση ορεσείβιος. Ανάλογη κατάληξη έχει ο Ποσειδών=πόσις+δων=άντρας της γης=στα Δωρικά Ποτίδας. Ο πιο παλιός όρος για τη γη είναι "γδων".Κάποιες ελληνικές φυλές αφαίρεσαν το δ και έμεινε "γων,γην,γαν,γαιαν".Άλλοι πάλι αφαίρεσαν το γ και έμεινε "δων,δη,δα" (π.χ. Δήμητρα=Δήμητηρ= μητέρα γη).Τέλος άλλοι "μαλάκωσαν" το γδων σε "χθων".Έτσι στην πρώιμη Αθήνα ο Ποσειδώνας από σύζυγος της γης (Πόσις γδων) έγινε εραστής της γης (Ερεχθών -> Ερεχθεύς)΄. Μία άλλη παραλλαγή του γδων είναι "κτων" εξού και αμφικτών=κοινή γη .".

::Among others, here it says: ...Macedonia comes from Mak+don which means "the tall ones", or "highlanders." Same etymology has the word Poseidon=posis+don=man of the earth (Ποσειδών=πόσις+δων=άντρας της γης). The ancient prefix for word earth was "gdon" ("γδων"). Some races removed letter d and left "gon,ghn,gan,gaian" ("γων,γην,γαν,γαιαν") - try to translate the word "γην" to an online dictionary see that meaning is "earth" pls-.Some other races removed letter g and left "don,dh,da" (e.g. Dhmhtra=Dhmhthr= mother earth -(from Dh, meaning earth, and mhthr (μήτηρ) meaning mother, try to remember Greek goddess Dhmhtra or [[Dimitra]] (because letter "η" becomes "i" or "e" in latin and not "h" in order to sound the same as the Greek word, known now in other races as first name :Dimitrios, Dimitra, Dimitri etc-... This is a free translation with my poor english from Greece, pls search it further, we have bad past, but really i dont mean to damage the article or accept accusations that i added a "naive pseudo-etymology". Thanks[[User:Psikxas|Psikxas]] ([[User talk:Psikxas|talk]]) 01:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

::: The discussion is at [[Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Archive 16#Etymology]], and you can check the article history around 20 April or so, when the removal was made. And please understand that your passage from the Greek wikipedia is worthless unless there are reliable sources from the literature. Wikipedia doesn't count as a source. I've seen lots of discussions of this etymology in reliable referece works, and I can't remember ever having seen one that involved an element "''-don''" meaning "earth". [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 05:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

:Pls consider again the text i pasted you from Greek wikipedia. I think that Greek wikipedia has also reliable references and they dont do whatever they want. After carefully reviewing the text ive given to you, and reading till the end, it says..."..Finally, some others made "gdon" to "chton". So, in early athens Poseidon, from man/husband of earth (Posis gdon) became her lover (Erechton) (from Eros = love, and chton = earth)." I can provide you a full list with -don, or gdon, or -chton. Like autochtone (=native, this who lives in his own land, auto->my own). Like amfikton=same land (amfi- we share together, , and -kton = earth, land). See here [http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%8E%CE%BD]. Search for word "χθών". Like "ypochthonios", meaning "ypo- , under, and chton - earth, so this word means someone who leaves underground. Υποχθόνιος. Look here [http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%89%CE%BD]. If you know Greek as you mention in your user page, you should eassily understand. Anyway, could you tell me to whom admin here should i address to and could explain better than me in english, that knows this matter, that know etymology and from where words come, and that he can understand sources i provide from Greek? Its a Greek word, so my "free translation" to english, cause many misunderstandings to you. Its my fault that cant explain better, but pls help improve the encyclopedia.Or at least, can you tell me where you have seen discussions of etymology online? Maybe i can have a look, because whatever search i make, i do it wrong maybe and end in greek sites, not english. Thanks[[User:Psikxas|Psikxas]] ([[User talk:Psikxas|talk]]) 06:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

*Oh, and i though you have seen this reference [http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=macedonia], where clearly states that mak=long, large. Considering macro gdon, Macedones means people are tall/leave in high ground/earth -->highlanders,the tall ones

:: The identification of ''mak-'' "long" is indeed uncontroversial. It's the ''-don'' part that's at issue. You can debate all you want, if you can't demonstrate that this ''-don'' = "earth" etymology has been proposed in a reliable linguistic academic source, there's just no way you can get it included. As far as I know, linguists have discussed all sorts of sources for that suffix, but I haven't come across this version. Besides, the result of the discussion in April was that we don't need any section on ancient etymology at all, in this article. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 07:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

About "high earth", Frisk attributes to Pisani a form *Maki-kedones (> Makedones) where *kedon is the Macedonian equivalent of Greek khthon; he considers it unlikely. Chantraine mentions Frisk's attribution but doesn't comment any further. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 17:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== SQRT5P1D2's topic ban ==

Please see [[WP:AE#SQRT5P1D2]] and [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request for clarification: SQRT5P1D2]]. You may have a view on this situation. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 08:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== tha dance ==

Ok, please take a look on [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaNT8ZFa2wk this] and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dcksjUoSUA this] dance too and tell me if they are tsamiko?[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::Afraid not: the first is again that 9/8 pattern (3/4 + 3/8), i.e. three regular steps and one slightly longer one; and the second is a regular 4/4 pattern (i.e. four equal steps). Greek Tsamiko has 3/4, i.e. groups of three equally long steps. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 12:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

:Also, please be part of our [[Talk:Cham Albanians|discussion]], especially on the dispute with Factuarius, cause I do not think I can make [[WP:IDONTHEARTHAT|my self clear to him]].[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:45, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

These is a dispute on Cham Albanians, I've raised a question about the use of non-Albanian-Greek authors (was agreed with Balkanian). It seems that one author (kretsi) is both (most probable of Albanian ethnicity-Greek citizenship)[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 13:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== Some help, I'd appreciate it ==

Hi, I remember some time ago you gave me a piece of advice what to do when an admin on another project is abusing his power. You'll never guess who that is - [http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA:MacedonianBoy MacedonianBoy], of course. I was browsing through articles about Bulgarians when I got to this lame article - [http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8] where you can extensively read how Bulgarians are actaully tatars and the main theory about their origin is the Tatar one (info was added by another good friend - RasoMK). There is also a dab saying "For the old people see "Bulgars", for the people in Russia see Tatars. I tried removing the stuff that looked to racist, explaining to Raso (or at least I thought that the person who added the info would respond) that this is not appropriate and ... oh, just read [http://mk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%3A%D0%91%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8&diff=633625&oldid=577499 it]. What MacedonianBoy did was to revert my edits twice (or maybe three times), threaten me with a block and protecting the page (after reverting me). Now, I get the impression this is not proper admin behaviour and I canot even make a single edit anymore or I'll obviously get a block from him (despite the fact that he's edit-warring). So, where should I go? --'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::For a start, try not to delete referenced text and to delete a text without explanation. As an active user, you should know that you have to give explanation before deleting, but you did not. And that is called vandalism pall + you continued with vandalism and that was a cause for the warnings. What is not clear Laveol?--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Plus: the section about the BG origin does not tell that BG are Tatars. There is another section about that and the text is supported with Bulgarian references, not Macedonian.--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Yes, it says it outright in the first paragraph. And only two of the sources are Bulgarian and as Raso noted when he added the info, they might as well come from [[Ataka]]. And this was not my question. I did explain my action on the talkpage and for it I got reverted and threatened with a block. I just want to know how to act in case of dmin abuse, thank you. If you're not here to help me, let Future answer this. Thank you. --'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Laveol please do not lie, when you got the warning than you have provided the explanation. You have understood that what have you done was a vandalism, but you continued with it.--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can obviously not solve anything here, but I'll say this much: M.B., if you pulled such a stunt as an admin here on en-wiki, you'd be desysoped in no time. First, Laveol's initial edit was clearly ''not'' vandalism; everybody could see it was made in good faith and it also had an appropriate edit summary ("- расистки коментари"). Your revert, in contrast, would certainly qualify as rollback abuse here with us, because you ''failed'' to provide even this minimal amount of a justifying edit summary. And protecting the page subsequently would most certainly be abusive use of admin tools, according to en-wiki criteria. I strongly suggest you remove that protection. Laveol, I really don't know how to go about this. There must be some more reasonable admins over at mk-wiki. If everything else fails and this shows an abusive anti-NPOV pattern that the local community is clearly unwilling or unable to handle, then theoretically there is the possibility of opening a cross-project RFC at Meta, but to actually get people there to intervene would be quite hard. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Removing a text with reliable source is not vandalism??? Come on, I will remove the protection if he would not continue to delete referenced text. I do not care about the text itself, I am writing about Maya people right now, not about BG.--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::What the ...? You just told me on mkwiki that only you care about the article, itself. --'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::::: If a reason is given in good faith for the removal, then no, removing text is not automatically vandalism. A passage of text may be perfectly sourced, but still constitute a violation of NPOV, place undue weight on a fringe position, be off-topic, tendentious, or just plain poorly written. There are multiple reasons somebody may legitimately want to remove a sourced passage of text. If they do so and indicate a reason for it, and you disagree, it's up to you to initiate a good-faith discussion. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::No man, I am not interested in such a discussion. I have never edited it except small edits. There are other users who edit that article. But removing a huge text cannot escape from your eyes on the Recent change page :) --[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks, I'll try to contact some of the more reasonable admins. I hope it works out somehow. Btw, looking at it now, I see he actually protected it twice - once after he reverted me, then he unprotected it, seeing that he has to make another revert to get to the "right version", reverted and protected it again. That is a Wow.--'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::Laveol again you lie. The second time I have put the tag that the article is protected. I thought you are more familiar with Wikipedia.--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Hmm, I must've mistaken. But I remember seeing the protection template, but the article didn't have its lame dab and though you protected the "wrong version". But, yeah, it figures you would protect the "right" one only. --'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== Inquiry ==

Could you check into this user's IP address ([[User:Jarvis76]]) and see if he/she is another sock of [[User:Pristinick]] and [[User:Tevfik Fikret]]? [[User:El Greco|'''El Greco''']]([[User talk:El Greco|talk]]) 17:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise

2009-06-22T17:59:27Z

3rdAlcove:

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== An image ==

Sorry to annoy you once more, but could you check out [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%89%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5_1941.jpg this image]? Part of the FUR says "It is of much lower resolution than the original" which is confusing considering the size. Also, the source seems to be a book published in Bulgaria in 1941, which wouldn't be a reliable source, would it? Thanks in advance, '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]'''

== Macedonians (Greeks) ==

I nominated the article for deletion: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Macedonians (Greeks)]]. Cheers!--

== Aaegean Macedonians vs Greek Macedonians/Bulgarian Macedonians ==

Hi Moreschi,

I want an explanation as to why [[Aegean Macedonians]] are forced into the article [[Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia]], while [[Macedonians (Greek)| Greek Macedonians]] and [[Macedonians (Bulgarians)| Bulgarian Macedonians]] get to have their own article instead of being within the article [[Macedonia (Greece)]] and [[Blagoevgrad Province]], respectfully?

Mactruth

== centralized discussion ==

Anyhow, thanks for the offer Palpatin :)
I am really am very unhappy about the treatment I am getting but I got used to it
I really don't know what to do now. Even in talk pages I am asked to shut my mouth. Is this supposed to be a neutral discussion? Just to answer to different threads it takes me hours (check the time signatures and consider the timezones too).
I have to be able to present my arguments somehow. Please try to capture the essence of them. I can't express them in any fewer words
Could you please explain why you had to censor that much of my edits in the arguments?
Especially why did you remove the reliable source (dictionary of contemporary English) that I used to support my argument?

== South Korea page ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prostitution_in_South_Korea#Question_about_2008_content_that_was_removed FYI], would you mind weighing in on the talk there? Thanks! [[User:Rootology|rootology]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|C]])([[User talk:Rootology|T]]) 16:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

== Need your help ==

Hi, Fut, [[User:Factuarius]] started again [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cham_Albanians&diff=296594478&oldid=296591910 editing pages with misciting authors, and not willing to discuss]]. Please, can you help me?[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 18:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

:What I edit is fully documented from already mentioning in the article sources. Why can mention a part of a book and not another one. Who can deside what part we can mention and what cannot? Every phrase of my editing is part of that books. Every word someone editing in that article is leading directly to an edit war from these 3 fellow Albanians who consider the article their property that nobody else can edit.--[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 19:00, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Balkanian`s word accuse me in misciting authors but this is totally untrue. Most of my text is almost word-by-word part of the original book's text. Since their pages are mentioning in my references he can check my references.--[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 19:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

:Shall you please help me Fut.? It seems that Factuarius cannot click edit on [[Talk:Cham Albanians]], but just can undo and POV. Please take a look on [[Talk:Cham Albanians]] and [[User talk:Factuarius]].[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Balkanian`s word please help yourself by reading more careful the noted pages. You tell me again and again that you cannot find the references, but are there. Read again the pages what else can I do about? --[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 12:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Factuarious until now you have brought no RS, just texts from greek authors. That is [[WP:POV]]. When you do that, then we'll start discussing the issue. --[[User:Sarandioti|Sarandioti]] ([[User talk:Sarandioti|talk]]) 13:06, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

:No Sir, Owen Pearson and Bernd J. Fischer are not greek authors. As for Manta, is one of 23 greek authors already mentioned in the article before my editing. The issue is what you and Balkanian want to mention about their books and what you don't want, I believe. But in that way we write fiction not history. Is that what you want?--[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 13:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Just a matter of protocol first, Factuarius: it is very impolite to make multiple editings in a row fiddling with your own text on somebody else's talk page, because it may bring up the "yellow bar of death" multiple times, which is bothersome. Please review your edits by using the "preview" button, and then send them off ''once''. As for the dispute, I haven't got much time for dealing with it. I might have a look at it later; until then, I'd suggest you both take your debate off my talk page. Thanks, --[[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

yellow bar of death?--[[User:Sarandioti|Sarandioti]] ([[User talk:Sarandioti|talk]]) 13:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

:I only answered Balkanian`s & Sarandioti's accusations they in parallel running both here and in the Chams discussion page. But now they are not answering in the Chams discussion page although they called me to discuss there the issue. Sorry for the trouble, I will do so in both suggestions. --[[User:Factuarius|Factuarius]] ([[User talk:Factuarius|talk]]) 13:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== Acropolis Museum ==

Hello! I am thinking that it would be good to transfer the page of the New Acropolis Museum to "Acropolis Museum" because it is about to open on 20 June. I redirected the page of the obsolete museum to "Old Acropolis Museum" but the "Acropolis Museum" is already used. Could you delete that page in order to redirect "New ~" to "Acropolis Museum"? [[User:Dimboukas|Dimboukas]] ([[User talk:Dimboukas|talk]]) 21:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

: Sorry, I'll be without admin tools for a small while. I've listed your request at [[WP:RM]], I'm sure it will soon be processed. Great news about the museum, can't wait to see it. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== New usage data ==

FYI: [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/MOSMAC2#Analysis of usage by topic area]]. Happy to discuss. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 21:48, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== Vlado Janevski Image ==

Yeah, but the whole thing it is how can I make an image free on wikipedia I can't understand that... can you help me.. For example what if I find some Vlado image from I don't know blog or his official website... so for putting on wiki what should I doooooOOO and make the picture non copyrighted... btw If I write something about his albums in the Vlado Janevski article can we keep the picture??? Greetings --1111tomica (talk) 16:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)1111tomica--1111tomica (talk) 16:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ahha... and what about if in his article a write a little bit about his album "Povtorno Se Zaljubuvam Vo Tebe" will I than be aloud to keep the picture I mean the cover in th article??? --[[User:1111tomica|1111tomica]] ([[User talk:1111tomica#top|talk]]) 16:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)1111tomica--[[User:1111tomica|1111tomica]] ([[User talk:1111tomica#top|talk]]) 16:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

== Turkish names of Greek islands ==

Dear Future Perfect at Sunrise

If this electronic encyclopedia is free, Turkish names of Greek island will be written. Your disinterestedness about these names can not be a valid excuse. If it is valid then I has the disinterestedness about former names of Turkish places and I want to erase them from Turkish names. Sincerely,--[[User:Cemsentin1|Cemsentin1]] ([[User talk:Cemsentin1|talk]]) 18:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

== Multiple personality disorder ==

Apparently you're the same person as {{user|PRRfan}} and Heimstern and many more! [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Greater_and_Lesser_Tunbs&diff=296815950&oldid=296786027] I suppose this makes you a one-person "gung"{{sic}}... -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 00:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
:Hi, other me. [[User:Heimstern|Future Heimstern at Läufer?]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(ummm...)]] 13:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
::Hi there, "undoed"! (Does that make you totally uncool?) ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 13:59, 18 June 2009 (UTC))
:::No, it makes him a zombie. ;) [[User:Kafka Liz|Kafka Liz]] ([[User talk:Kafka Liz|talk]]) 14:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
:::: That would be "[[:nl:Ondood|ondood]]", wouldn't it? But maybe yes, that's not too bad a description for my current zombie-admin status. (/me growls in a deep voice: "Tooools....! Tooools ...!") [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 14:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== A copyright issue. ==

Hi, you seem to have the experience. Unusual assertions about government corruption and too much focus on smuggling attracted my attention in [[2001 insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia]]. The first two sections were copy-pasted from [http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_384.shtml this source] (which, eitherway, seems to me of questonable value). Haven't checked the rest. Can you deal with it ? Thanks.--[[User:Δρακόλακκος|Δρακόλακκος]] ([[User talk:Δρακόλακκος|talk]]) 12:03, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== Psikxas ==

Hi, '''Fut.Perf'''. There've been some new developments with regard to the apparent fraud; I've [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Looks_pretty_criminal_to_me_.E2.80.93_Greek_editor_needed|updated]] the discussion at ANI. If this isn't the first report I've made at ANI, it's the first in recent memory; what happens now? Thanks, —[[User:Scheinwerfermann|Scheinwerfermann]] [[User_talk:Scheinwerfermann|T]]·[[Special:Contributions/Scheinwerfermann|C]]18:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== Chams ==

Hi, Fut, please take part on the discussion on [[Talk:Cham Albanians]].[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi fut.. A typical suspect [[User:Sarandioti]] just made a renaming (twice) on the [[Tsamiko]] article. Can You take an eye on that plz.. Off course this move is without a single source. [[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 20:48, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

What source do I need on that?? It is a dance of albanian origin, danced also by greeks. So why should we use the greek names on a dance that means in english dance of the chams?!?!?!? --[[User:Sarandioti|Sarandioti]] ([[User talk:Sarandioti|talk]]) 21:20, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The name itself does not make things clear about the origin. Actually, it makes nothing clear. Etymology and origin dont go necessary together.[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 22:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

:No, thats the [[Dance of Osman Taka]], which is '''a''' Cham dance, but not '''the''' Cham dance (aka Tsamiko).[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 14:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

::Wait I have to see it again, cause I do not have a sound device on my comp, and I just saw the valle, which was like the dance of osman taka. I will tell you in about 3 hours, exactely.[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 17:17, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

== Cases where disambiguation of Macedonia is definately not needed. ==

If you have any additions for the "set of occasions" in proposal B please share them. [[User:Shadowmorph|Shadowmorph]] [[User talk:Shadowmorph|^"^]] 22:28, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

== Etymology ==

Pls give me the link of the discussion you refered to that the community decided not to inlcude the etymology of the word "Macedonian". Im new here and didnt manage to find it. Thanks. [[User:Psikxas|Psikxas]] ([[User talk:Psikxas|talk]]) 00:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

::And please, dont accuse me as if i provided a "naive pseudo-etymology". Try to translate thsi abstract from the Greek Wikipedia. If needed, i can provide more refferences. "Έχοντας κατά νου την πορεία αυτού του λαού επιστρέφουμε στην ετυμολογία του ονόματος Μακεδονία και Μακεδών.Προέρχεται από το Μακ+δων που σημαίνει ψηλή γη και κατ΄επέκταση ορεσείβιος. Ανάλογη κατάληξη έχει ο Ποσειδών=πόσις+δων=άντρας της γης=στα Δωρικά Ποτίδας. Ο πιο παλιός όρος για τη γη είναι "γδων".Κάποιες ελληνικές φυλές αφαίρεσαν το δ και έμεινε "γων,γην,γαν,γαιαν".Άλλοι πάλι αφαίρεσαν το γ και έμεινε "δων,δη,δα" (π.χ. Δήμητρα=Δήμητηρ= μητέρα γη).Τέλος άλλοι "μαλάκωσαν" το γδων σε "χθων".Έτσι στην πρώιμη Αθήνα ο Ποσειδώνας από σύζυγος της γης (Πόσις γδων) έγινε εραστής της γης (Ερεχθών -> Ερεχθεύς)΄. Μία άλλη παραλλαγή του γδων είναι "κτων" εξού και αμφικτών=κοινή γη .".

::Among others, here it says: ...Macedonia comes from Mak+don which means "the tall ones", or "highlanders." Same etymology has the word Poseidon=posis+don=man of the earth (Ποσειδών=πόσις+δων=άντρας της γης). The ancient prefix for word earth was "gdon" ("γδων"). Some races removed letter d and left "gon,ghn,gan,gaian" ("γων,γην,γαν,γαιαν") - try to translate the word "γην" to an online dictionary see that meaning is "earth" pls-.Some other races removed letter g and left "don,dh,da" (e.g. Dhmhtra=Dhmhthr= mother earth -(from Dh, meaning earth, and mhthr (μήτηρ) meaning mother, try to remember Greek goddess Dhmhtra or [[Dimitra]] (because letter "η" becomes "i" or "e" in latin and not "h" in order to sound the same as the Greek word, known now in other races as first name :Dimitrios, Dimitra, Dimitri etc-... This is a free translation with my poor english from Greece, pls search it further, we have bad past, but really i dont mean to damage the article or accept accusations that i added a "naive pseudo-etymology". Thanks[[User:Psikxas|Psikxas]] ([[User talk:Psikxas|talk]]) 01:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

::: The discussion is at [[Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Archive 16#Etymology]], and you can check the article history around 20 April or so, when the removal was made. And please understand that your passage from the Greek wikipedia is worthless unless there are reliable sources from the literature. Wikipedia doesn't count as a source. I've seen lots of discussions of this etymology in reliable referece works, and I can't remember ever having seen one that involved an element "''-don''" meaning "earth". [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 05:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

:Pls consider again the text i pasted you from Greek wikipedia. I think that Greek wikipedia has also reliable references and they dont do whatever they want. After carefully reviewing the text ive given to you, and reading till the end, it says..."..Finally, some others made "gdon" to "chton". So, in early athens Poseidon, from man/husband of earth (Posis gdon) became her lover (Erechton) (from Eros = love, and chton = earth)." I can provide you a full list with -don, or gdon, or -chton. Like autochtone (=native, this who lives in his own land, auto->my own). Like amfikton=same land (amfi- we share together, , and -kton = earth, land). See here [http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%8E%CE%BD]. Search for word "χθών". Like "ypochthonios", meaning "ypo- , under, and chton - earth, so this word means someone who leaves underground. Υποχθόνιος. Look here [http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%89%CE%BD]. If you know Greek as you mention in your user page, you should eassily understand. Anyway, could you tell me to whom admin here should i address to and could explain better than me in english, that knows this matter, that know etymology and from where words come, and that he can understand sources i provide from Greek? Its a Greek word, so my "free translation" to english, cause many misunderstandings to you. Its my fault that cant explain better, but pls help improve the encyclopedia.Or at least, can you tell me where you have seen discussions of etymology online? Maybe i can have a look, because whatever search i make, i do it wrong maybe and end in greek sites, not english. Thanks[[User:Psikxas|Psikxas]] ([[User talk:Psikxas|talk]]) 06:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

*Oh, and i though you have seen this reference [http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=macedonia], where clearly states that mak=long, large. Considering macro gdon, Macedones means people are tall/leave in high ground/earth -->highlanders,the tall ones

:: The identification of ''mak-'' "long" is indeed uncontroversial. It's the ''-don'' part that's at issue. You can debate all you want, if you can't demonstrate that this ''-don'' = "earth" etymology has been proposed in a reliable linguistic academic source, there's just no way you can get it included. As far as I know, linguists have discussed all sorts of sources for that suffix, but I haven't come across this version. Besides, the result of the discussion in April was that we don't need any section on ancient etymology at all, in this article. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 07:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

About "high earth", Frisk attributes to Pisani a form *Maki-kedones (> Makedones) where *kedon the Macedonian equivalent to Greek khthon; he considers it unlikely. Chantraine mentions Frisk's attribution but doesn't comment any further. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 17:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== SQRT5P1D2's topic ban ==

Please see [[WP:AE#SQRT5P1D2]] and [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request for clarification: SQRT5P1D2]]. You may have a view on this situation. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 08:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== tha dance ==

Ok, please take a look on [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaNT8ZFa2wk this] and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dcksjUoSUA this] dance too and tell me if they are tsamiko?[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::Afraid not: the first is again that 9/8 pattern (3/4 + 3/8), i.e. three regular steps and one slightly longer one; and the second is a regular 4/4 pattern (i.e. four equal steps). Greek Tsamiko has 3/4, i.e. groups of three equally long steps. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 12:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

:Also, please be part of our [[Talk:Cham Albanians|discussion]], especially on the dispute with Factuarius, cause I do not think I can make [[WP:IDONTHEARTHAT|my self clear to him]].[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:45, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

These is a dispute on Cham Albanians, I've raised a question about the use of non-Albanian-Greek authors (was agreed with Balkanian). It seems that one author (kretsi) is both (most probable of Albanian ethnicity-Greek citizenship)[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 13:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== Some help, I'd appreciate it ==

Hi, I remember some time ago you gave me a piece of advice what to do when an admin on another project is abusing his power. You'll never guess who that is - [http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA:MacedonianBoy MacedonianBoy], of course. I was browsing through articles about Bulgarians when I got to this lame article - [http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8] where you can extensively read how Bulgarians are actaully tatars and the main theory about their origin is the Tatar one (info was added by another good friend - RasoMK). There is also a dab saying "For the old people see "Bulgars", for the people in Russia see Tatars. I tried removing the stuff that looked to racist, explaining to Raso (or at least I thought that the person who added the info would respond) that this is not appropriate and ... oh, just read [http://mk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%3A%D0%91%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8&diff=633625&oldid=577499 it]. What MacedonianBoy did was to revert my edits twice (or maybe three times), threaten me with a block and protecting the page (after reverting me). Now, I get the impression this is not proper admin behaviour and I canot even make a single edit anymore or I'll obviously get a block from him (despite the fact that he's edit-warring). So, where should I go? --'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::For a start, try not to delete referenced text and to delete a text without explanation. As an active user, you should know that you have to give explanation before deleting, but you did not. And that is called vandalism pall + you continued with vandalism and that was a cause for the warnings. What is not clear Laveol?--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Plus: the section about the BG origin does not tell that BG are Tatars. There is another section about that and the text is supported with Bulgarian references, not Macedonian.--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Yes, it says it outright in the first paragraph. And only two of the sources are Bulgarian and as Raso noted when he added the info, they might as well come from [[Ataka]]. And this was not my question. I did explain my action on the talkpage and for it I got reverted and threatened with a block. I just want to know how to act in case of dmin abuse, thank you. If you're not here to help me, let Future answer this. Thank you. --'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Laveol please do not lie, when you got the warning than you have provided the explanation. You have understood that what have you done was a vandalism, but you continued with it.--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can obviously not solve anything here, but I'll say this much: M.B., if you pulled such a stunt as an admin here on en-wiki, you'd be desysoped in no time. First, Laveol's initial edit was clearly ''not'' vandalism; everybody could see it was made in good faith and it also had an appropriate edit summary ("- расистки коментари"). Your revert, in contrast, would certainly qualify as rollback abuse here with us, because you ''failed'' to provide even this minimal amount of a justifying edit summary. And protecting the page subsequently would most certainly be abusive use of admin tools, according to en-wiki criteria. I strongly suggest you remove that protection. Laveol, I really don't know how to go about this. There must be some more reasonable admins over at mk-wiki. If everything else fails and this shows an abusive anti-NPOV pattern that the local community is clearly unwilling or unable to handle, then theoretically there is the possibility of opening a cross-project RFC at Meta, but to actually get people there to intervene would be quite hard. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Removing a text with reliable source is not vandalism??? Come on, I will remove the protection if he would not continue to delete referenced text. I do not care about the text itself, I am writing about Maya people right now, not about BG.--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::What the ...? You just told me on mkwiki that only you care about the article, itself. --'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::::: If a reason is given in good faith for the removal, then no, removing text is not automatically vandalism. A passage of text may be perfectly sourced, but still constitute a violation of NPOV, place undue weight on a fringe position, be off-topic, tendentious, or just plain poorly written. There are multiple reasons somebody may legitimately want to remove a sourced passage of text. If they do so and indicate a reason for it, and you disagree, it's up to you to initiate a good-faith discussion. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::No man, I am not interested in such a discussion. I have never edited it except small edits. There are other users who edit that article. But removing a huge text cannot escape from your eyes on the Recent change page :) --[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks, I'll try to contact some of the more reasonable admins. I hope it works out somehow. Btw, looking at it now, I see he actually protected it twice - once after he reverted me, then he unprotected it, seeing that he has to make another revert to get to the "right version", reverted and protected it again. That is a Wow.--'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::Laveol again you lie. The second time I have put the tag that the article is protected. I thought you are more familiar with Wikipedia.--[[User:MacedonianBoy|MacedonianBoy]] ([[User talk:MacedonianBoy|talk]]) 13:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Hmm, I must've mistaken. But I remember seeing the protection template, but the article didn't have its lame dab and though you protected the "wrong version". But, yeah, it figures you would protect the "right" one only. --'''[[User:Laveol|Laveol]] [[User talk:Laveol|T]]''' 13:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Ancient Macedonians

2009-05-22T23:46:22Z

3rdAlcove:

{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WPGR|class=Start|importance=Mid|nested=yes}}
{{Classical Greece and Rome|class=Start|importance=Mid|nested=yes}}
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==Non-Hellenic words?==
find me a ancient macedonian word with a non-hellenic etymology. I challenge everyone to bring it on the discussion group.—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:86.133.162.45|86.133.162.45]] ([[User talk:86.133.162.45|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/86.133.162.45|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.

...ooooh....a challenge....sort of like arm-wrestling. very macho. Actually, there apparently are a number of Macedonian words that don't have clear "hellenic etymologies", but these can be viewed as loanwords from another people, so your challenge is irrelevant, and would not prove anything pro or con. good luck finding another earth-shattering challenge. In the meanwhile, try to use this talk page to discuss changes to the article's content.—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:69.228.53.144|69.228.53.144]] ([[User talk:69.228.53.144|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/69.228.53.144|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.

noone can find anything non-Hellenic about Macedonians. [[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 08:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

==Ancient Macedonians were an Ancient Greek Tribe. period.==

This article has been vandalized. You delete ancient sources. You block ancient and modern historical and linguistic knowledge. This is disgusting. Ancient Macedonians were Hellenes like [[Molossians]], [[Chaonians]], Thesprotians, [[Spartans]], [[Athenians]] etc. are you guys allergic to truth?
for tribes like Molossians and Chaonians it's ok to put "[[Molossians]] were an Ancient Greek tribe", but for the Macedonians it is not?
there are hundreds upon hundreds of ancient writings of Macedonians calling themselves Greek, Greeks calling Macedonians Greek, Persians and other foreigners calling the macedonians Greek.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia do you have proof and sources against that?
If you disagree with this fact that Ancient Macedonians considered themselves Greeks(or Hellenes),
bring your arguments and sources or silence forever.
If there is not doubt about whether ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe why is this article not like any other ancient Greek tribe article? it should be like this: "The Ancient Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient Greek tribe who inhabited..."
if there is no evidence against it except propaganda, why not let the people know the truth? that is the way that it should be "Greek tribe". Ask any Historian. look at modern and ancient Historians: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia
see it for yourself , crosscheck it and tell the whole truth.
[[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 08:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree this is disgusting this is suppossed to be an encyclopedia.Respect facts and sources,if you disagree with something show some facts and arguments and let us discuss [[User:Wrcrack|Wrcrack]] ([[User talk:Wrcrack|talk]]) 07:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

==Another example of FYROM double standards==
How typical from our northern neigbours. When you refer to yourselves, you demand that everybody calls you Macedonian because that's what you call yourselves. But when you refer to the Ancient Macedonians, who SELF IDENTIFIED as Greeks, we have to sit and listen to what you (or some propaganda sources of yours) say about them. There is a Greek saying (from the Greek shadow puppet theater of [[Karagiozis]]) that goes: "Mine is mine and yours is mine". --
[[User_talk:Avg|   Avg   ]] 02:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
*Ancient Macedonans that self identified as Greeks?? Where did you get that idea from? I have never heard it. --[[User:Bjankuloski06en|B. Jankuloski]] 23:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

: Well, B. Jankuloski, here are a few quotes from famous ancient Macedonians which (unfortunately, for obvious reasons) they don't teach you:

[[Alexander I of Macedon]], king of Macedon from 498 BCE to 454 BCE:
{{quotation|Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably. (''Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.20.4, Loeb'')}}

{{quotation|Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Greece in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian. (''From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45'')}}

[[Alexander the Great]], king of Macedon, 356 BCE - 323 BCE:
{{quotation|Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you... (''Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in "Anabasis Alexandri" by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 14, 4'')}}

{{quotation|Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions. (''Addressing the dead Greeks of the Battle of Chaeronea, as quoted in “Historiae Alexandri Magni” by Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus.'')}}

{{quotation|If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, bands follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus. (''Plutarch, "Moralia: On the Fortune of Alexander", I, 332a-b'')}}

{{quotation|Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Greek Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Greek peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians. (''Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.15.1-4'')}}

{{quotation|Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers. (''Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.37.9-13'')}}

{{quotation|There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. (''Addressing his troops prior to the Battle of Issus, as quoted in “Anabasis Alexandri” by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 7'')}}

[[Philip V]], King of Macedon, 221 BC - 179 BC:
{{quotation|For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law (''Polybius, “The Histories”, 18.4.8'')}}

Cheers! [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 14:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

uhmmm, mr Jankuloski, do you really think that a person with your last name is related in any way to ancient Macedonians?? In fact the name Macedonia is Greek, related to the adjective makednos and to the root mak- still existing in the greek word mak-ros, you can find it yourself in greek-origined english modern words such as macro-economics. Educate yourself before trying to bias history for your own nationalistic purposes. And if you can not find any ancient macedonians self identifying themselves as ancient Greeks look for Alexander the 1st in the early 5th century BC. Why dont you look up the names of ancient Macedonians: Krateros, Philippos, Amyntas, Olympias, Alexandros, Gorgias, Aristoteles, Protagoras, Parmenion, Hephaistion etc etc etc. ALL GREEK. You could not find one single name of an Ancient Macedonian that does not have a purely greek name. And i could tell you this. I am a greek but i do not care at all if Ancient Macedonians were Greeks or just a neighbour nation to Greeks like the ancient Thracians. Since they decided to embrace the greek culture and to be assimilated by Greeks, whats your problem? that still makes them Greeks. Blood doesnt count. What counts is culture, civilization, language and what you really want to be. I recognize your right to have as part of your national name the term "Macedonian", you could call your country either Northern Macedonia, Slavomacedonia or FYR Macedonia. Why dont you recognize our right to not let you Slavomacedonians monopolize this name and its history? At least my name is Dionysios, related to the god Dionysos, worshipped by ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great (Alexandros o Megas). What is your name really mister -ski? ([[User:Dion Gc|Dionysios]] 16:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

:Yes. Dionysis. And your father is Zeus and mother is cleopatra ! ! DELUSIONAL.

Any 10 year old Greek can read what is written on the tomb of King Philippos. Can you?

—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek|contribs]]) 09:00, 3 August 2007

== =Hellenistic absorbed??= ==

The following paragraph makes absolutely no sense:

''"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians - whether they spoke a [[Ancient Greek|Greek dialect]] or a distinct language - were absorbed into the [[Koine Greek]]-speaking population in [[Hellenistic]] times."''

Wrong time period. The [[Hellenistic]] period did not begin until '''after''' the death of [[Alexander the Great]], while we know that the ancient kingdom of Macedon started to take part in the Greek world since at least [[Alexander I of Macedon]], that's a century before King [[Philip II of Macedon]] was even born. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006

:The assimilation of XMK as a language/ethnicity is generally thought to have taken place in Hellenistic times, not before Alexander III's death. In the lead paragraph things are usually kept brief, but you can add info about the process beginning in pre-Hellenistic times. [[User:69.106.104.144|69.106.104.144]] 17:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

::That doesn't match up with the other aspects that have so far been found, which point that XMK as a language/ethnicity was at least starting taken place since the [[5th century BC]], such as: aside from [[Thucydides]], who lived in the 5th century bc, proclaiming them as part of the ancient "Hellenic" tribes branch, we also have [[Alexander I of Macedon]], who modeled his court after [[Athens]] and was a patron of the poet [[Pindar]]; [[Strattis]] Athenian comedy which presents '''Macedonian speech''' as a form of Greek; the [[Hesychius of Alexandria]] glosses where the majority of these words can be confidently identified as Greek; Persians who had no stake in calling them Greek, such as King [[Darius I of Persia|Darius Hystaspes]], who ruled over the Macedon kingdom during the 5th century bc, would call them '''Yaunâ Takabarâ''' ("Greeks with sunhats"), Yaunâ=Persian word when referring to Greeks and Takabarâ=Persian world in reference to the Macedonian headwear. The Persians must have seem some sort of Hellenic influence to call their Macedonian subjects "Yauna"; the Persians dealt with the ancient people back then, they didn't call the Thracians, Libyans, Carians etc as such, but they did with Macedonians. Plus the Persians had Greeks living in their back yards all over Asia Minor, I'm sure they could have told the difference between the people they ruled over; King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] establishing the new capital at [[Pella]], and holding annual festivals in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]] (a city right next to [[Mt. Olympus]]); Southern Greeks such as [[Euripides]], [[Agathon]] and the famous painter [[Zeuxis]] composing some of their most famous works in Macedon at the request of King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]]. By the [[4th century BC]] there already numerious Doric inscriptions from pre-Hellenistic Macedon, such as the [[Pella katadesmos]] which points that not only there might be the chance that the royal Macedonian families were the only ones who spoke/wrote in some Hellenic dialect but so did the regular folk in a Hellenic Doric/North Western dialect which was not [[Attic Greek|Attic]] or [[Koine]]. Which is why I questioned the "absorbance", if one has that view, of Macedon during the [[Hellenistic]] ages, when there is some evidence to suggested it might have started earlier then that. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::Just a few corrections:
:::*The political acts of Alexander I tell us something about the political orientation of that king, but hardly about the ethnic background of his subjects - nobody doubts Macedonia started ''importing'' Attic culture from the south around that time. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::The way the first paragrapher of this article was phrased, it sounded like it didn't. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*Of the Strattis comedy, ''one single sentence'' is preserved, in a writer quoting it centuries later - I'd like to see a reference to a reputed linguist discussing what evidence this yields for the Macedonian language issue.
::::And how many sentences '''have been preserved'' to tells us that this ''single sentence'' proves other wise? What we do know is that the person playing the Macedonian in the play pronounces Αττικοι as Ωττικοι and υμεις as υμες. I haven't seen anyone disproven this as being false yet.~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::Yes, and in the interest of [[WP:NOR]], could you please point us to the linguistic article that discusses how well these supposed dialect features fit in with the properties of the Pella dialect? (Not that I'd exclude they might, but who here is competent to judge this?) By the way, I might be wrong here, but isn't "Ωττικοί" just a case of standard ''crasis'' of vocative "ω" with "Αττικοί"? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::The minute it is pointed to us of the linguistic articles which gives "proof" Borza's "linguistic" evidence disproves ancient Macedonian falling under the Greek dialects. As to the source of the Strattis comedy, it was taken from an article by Alfred Korte quoting Athenaios VII,323b which Sakellariou translated into English. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 27 May 2006
:::::::Ah, that's something. Could you provide a full citation of the source so we can include it in the article? As for the linguistic discussion about the pros and cons of the Greek-dialect hypothesis, see the language article, it quotes a few things. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::P.S.: Ah, I now see you probably got the info from this third-class nationalist website: [http://www.greece.org/themis/macedonia/faq.htm]. That web author manages to get even the quote from Sakellariou wrong. ''"Ma freen"'', αα ρε φίλε indeed! Let me make a suggestion: We should all get down from our respective soapboxes and spend a bit more time in libraries instead of on the web arguing and edit-warring. I'm still planning to rewrite the article, but not before I have read both Borza and Sakellariou '''in the original''', and I very much recommend everybody else do the same. I'm not going to enter into any more arguments based on cheap web material. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
:::*Hesychius is 5th century ''CE'' not ''BCE'', almost a millenium after the critical period you're talking about.
::::I stand corrected on the century but its value can be seen the dialects which are found in it do take back to the works of [[Aeschylus]] and [[Theorcritus]] which also includes the Macedonian dialect.~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*There aren't "numerous" Doric inscriptions, AFAIK. There's the Pella katadesmos and very little else. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Ofcourse, and as it was stated above, there ''so'' much evidence which points to it ''not'' falling within the Greek dialects. [roll] Isn't it funny that with each find, it mostly confirms its association with Greek then disproves it? Its interesting that King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] called his new capital [[Pella]], derived from the Doric word, '''APELLA''', which the Doric speaking Spartans (not close friends of the Macedon btw) also used in refrence to a ceremonial location; and what did Archelaus do after building [[Pella]]? Ah yes, annual festivals in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]].~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*The Doric material (both Pella and Strattis) do not contradict the claim above about integration into the Koiné Greek-speaking population in hellenistic times, but support it. Whatever the relation between those Doric fragments and the elusive "Macedonian" proper - neither of them was ''Koiné''. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::What people seem to not understand when making claims such as that is that the [[Hellenistic]] Koiné Greek dialect, which was btw was based on the Attic dialect with numerious regional influences from local dialects, was not a phenomenon particular to Macedonia. Throught out the Greek world the Attic koine replaced the local dialects. So if you are basing the suppose "hellenization" of Macedonian on the integration of Koine Greek, then you might as well base that theory through out the ancient Greek world and say that Attica, Sparta and Thebes became "hellenized" at that same period too. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::I know what Koine was, thank you very much. The original sentence expressed the development quite precisely: Before the Hellenistic age, there was something that may or may not have been a Greek dialect; after the Hellenistic age, there was something else that was Koine. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::The original sentence, gave one the assumption that Macedon became a "Hellenic" culture after the entire world had been conquered and Hellenized by the Macedonian Empire, when for the Macedonians to be "supposedly" so "Hellenized" by the time of Alexander the Great, their "Hellinization" would have started much earlier then Koine Hellenic age. Couplet with that all the other material written in this article, it gave the article a different feel to it...which I tried to balance with some of the material I added. This current version which you cleaned up, is much better, IMO, and more balanced to what we do know so far. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::::Glad we agree at least on this. :-) I'd still like to do a rewrite of the whole "controversy" section further down, but it's a big task. We can then also re-introduce some of the material you mentioned, I'd just want to frame it differently. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

there is no reason to treat "Ancient Macedonians" in an article different from [[Macedon]]. This is a blatant pov fork, containing nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there. A clear "Merge with [[Macedon]]". Stop littering new pov forks just to score points in the tired old and ''boring'' "Macedonia" coflict. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]] 20:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

:This article was created by [[User:Alexander 007|Alexander 007]] following a discussion held at [[Talk:Macedon]]; and I hadn't been informed that we were vicious pov-pushers attempting to assure the victory for x side. As for "nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there", I found this statement sort of weird; where is the stuff in [[Macedon]] that is also in [[Ancient Macedonians]]?--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 20:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::I guess the original idea was okay, but the article has spun a bit out of control and has become POV-forkish in large parts through some recent additions. I wouldn't mind refactoring it back into the two other articles, but I think the most pressing task is to put the discussion on a decent basis in the literature, and not that cheap rehashed stuff from the usual nationalist websites (see above). [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

:::It a merge is going to take place, then exactly what is merged should be filtered carefully. I think the last sections, expecially the Hellenic controversy section, may not be needed at all. --[[User:Telex|Telex]] 20:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::::One of the reasons this article was created was to free [[Macedon]] from the Hellenic controversy section, that was large, ugly and unscholarly. Removing it made Macedon better and far more peaceful, and I don't want to return to the previous condition. This article is bad now, but it can always be bettered.--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 20:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the [''personal attacks removed''] have begun to attack this page also, I should explain that the first reference to Herodotus and the Dorians is not mine, although I believe it correct; the second is from Sakellariou's ''Macedonia''. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 23:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:It doesn't matter, the way it's written it is as if the article is trying to pass a hidden clue to the reader "fairy (bullshit) story" or "Alexander and Philip use that in order to pretend to be Greeks (which they weren't)" etc, etc. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::PMA/Sept: The evident attacker is you. The vandals you are insinuating are actually very reasonable and contributing users, who are protecting the article from your POV edits, undue weight and original research. Try to blow your steam some other way, or be prepared to face the necessary consequences of [[WP:NPA]]. [[User:NikoSilver| NikoSilver ]] [[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]] 23:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
:::On the contrary, I'm taking Telex's suggestion, and citing Herodotus and Sakellariou here. 23:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

==NPOV==
Pmanderson do you think I'm not in possession of sources that say exactly what I want to write? Well you're wrong. The only reason I'm not making blunt edits here (although I can source every one of them) is because I'm respecting the NPOV policy, which clearly states that during highly controversial subject, ''_none_ of the views should be favoured over the other''. I rewrote your edits in order to respect that policy, and what I get in return is a bunch of banal personal attacks. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
:Niskin has now four times deleted a sourced citation of evidence not otherwise mentioned in this article. This is against policy (and common honesty). If he objected to the phrasing, that was within his rights to alter; to delete facts is vandalism. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 23:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

<YAWNS> [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:Next time you want to report someone for 3RR, I would advise you to look at the diffs _before_ clicking the edit button. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 00:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::I agree that neutrality is important, especially with controversial subjects. but this case is different. the article will be fine if we just stick to fact. theres nothing wrong with contributing what is known, and something needs to be done about people removing information from the article which is in conflict with their cause. dont get me wrong, im trying to be completely neutral here. if a wikipedian has independent sources which corroborate any views of the people of fyrom and their government, feel free to add whatever they say to this article. but dont add something written by them, or anything based on propaganda. i think if information continues being removed from this article it might need to be protected. or something else. what do you guys think? [[Special:Contributions/68.193.106.206|68.193.106.206]] ([[User talk:68.193.106.206|talk]]) 18:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

==Cool down guys==

Okay, you've all edit-warred enough for today.
*I agree with Pmanderson that Herodot's origin stories need to be put into some context, as there certainly are scholars who regard them as (a) mythical and/or (b) applying only to the royal house, not to the people in general. Both can easily be referenced. I think the text he proposed was not quite optimal though, I'd try to make it shorter.
*As for the language formulation ("the language spoken..."), to my mind that formulation is so neutral it does not, in itself, entail a claim to ''separate''-language status. Therefore, the addition ("... or Greek dialect") is unnecessary.
What else were you quarrelling about? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 00:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
**Of course contributions should be edited. If I had been edited, rather than having the text blanked, I would have let reasonable alternatives stand.
**"Language" is incidental damage, although it is used in this context even by those who consider Macedonian a Greek variant; it is fairly widely considered to be further from the (other) Greek dialects than they are from each other.
**Miskin has blanked all reference to Herodotus's account of the Argead descent; this unquestionably belongs in this article. I will quote it in full if necessary, although it should not be.
**He has also left the impression that, if accepted, it would imply the same descent for the Macedonian generals, which does not follow. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 15:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said before this is a very controversial topic and edits must be very elegant. Pmanderson's were not at all, so I rewrote what I could and removed what seemed to be out of context. Nothing is conclusive and no view must be favoured over the other. All views must be given equal emphasis, and the order of presentation will depend on how many sources support each view (and not on the priority Alexander_007 decided to give). The article's sections must also be re-organised. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 01:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

:I have yet to come across a scholar who questions or refutes Herodotus' citation in the article, i.e. that Macedonians were Dorian settlers. The Achaean and Heraclid origin of the Argead dynasty is a different story, and whether factual or not, it was accepted in antiquity even by Thucydides. However historian today do question its validity. Pmanderson's edits on the other hand were implying that scholars who doubt the mythical origin of the Argead dynasty would also doubt the Herodotian account on the Doric origin of Macedonians, which is not at all the case. One is about the Macedonians in general and the other is about its Royal family. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way pmanderson, there is a school of scholars which regards Macedonian speech to be a Hellenic language sister to the known Greek dialects, and there's another school which regards it simply a Greek dialect with Thraco-Illyrian admixtures. The view on Macedonian being completely distinct to Greek is held by a minority. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

:Oh and pmanderson try to look at other people's edits before accusing them. I didn't blank the reference on Herodotus' accounts on the Argead dynasty [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonians&diff=55823428&oldid=55823187] (eventhough it's mentioned later in the article). I removed a small paragraph which was making POV conclusions on the ethnicity of the Hellenistic rulers, who were in reality not even Macedonians, therefore largely irrelevant to the section and the article in general. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following:
*"Both Philip II and Alexander the Great used this claim of kinship to secure recognition as Greeks, including an invitation to the Olympic Games."
Eventhough this is probably sourced, within a such controversian topic you cannot present it as factual, let alone stick it in the "origins" section. As I said before, in my opinion pmanderson's purpose was to mislead the reader into believing that Herodotus' acount on the Dorian invasion is as mythical as his record on the Argead dynasty. I repeat: They are two distinct records. If you find a criticism on the former theory, then by all means stick it in, but don't try to generalise the criticism on the latter in order to refute all of Herodotus' mentions on Macedon.
*"This claim of kinship applies to the Macedonian royal house, which was extinguished shortly after Alexander's death. The Macedonian generals who thereafter made themselves kings over Syria, Egypt, and Macedonia itself were not members of that house; although Ptolemy I sometimes claimed to be an illegitimate son of Philip II"
What does that have to do in the section "origins"? Later Hellenistic rulers were not even Macedonian, they were simply Greeks from all over the world. Therefore I don't see the need to point out the obvious, i.e. that they did not inherit Macedon's royal line. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 16:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

== Mallacaos' additions ==

Ehmmm, sorry Mallacaos, but that source doesn't suffice to make it ''not'' [[WP:OR]]. We're not just dealing with reporting facts here, we're dealing with ''using'' facts ''to argue for an opinion''. You've sourced the fact (Greeks as metics), but you haven't sourced the idea that it can serve as an argument about the Ancient Macedonians. Come back when you can say: ''"Author X has argued that, because even Greeks from other cities were treated as metics, we may conclude that the claim that Macedonians were "barbaroi" does not entail they were non-Greeks."'' - I very much doubt you will find such an idea in reliable printed sources by reputed historians or linguists. Hint: the difference between "citizen" and "metic" is different from that between "Hellene" and "barbarian". - No partisan websites please ([http://www.helleniclife.net/Refuting%20Anti%20Greek%20Propoganda.htm]). Quote a book, or even better, a scholarly journal. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 16:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

== Ethnicity ==

So the Argead dynasty and the kings of Macedon claimed Greek decent, yet we are still 'disputing' whether they were not a Greek peoples? Give me a break.

:That's a question I've already asked in the past. It's contradictory isn't it? But that's life. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 10:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL: "Herodotus lies in his book". Quick, someone write to his publishers and send him a stern warning letter with [[Eurydice]], plus relevant news footage from CNN. That will teach him, the rascal! [[User:Politis|Politis]] 13:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:It is a usual tactic of propagandists to accuse historians of lying... Poor Herodotus cannot defend himself... However, history has proven him to be right in most of his statements. and about the rest, future will show... Apropos, for centuries people and propagandists believed that Homerus was lying about the Trojan War, or that Linear B was not a Hellenic script... But, History always takes her revenge. and no matter if the Skopjans rename their airport, history can't be erased:). [[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 13:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::Let them IMO. And then Thessaloniki Airport should be renamed to "International Airport Alexander the Great - Cyril and Methodios - Kemal Ataturk the butcher" or something like that ;-) //[[User:Dirak|Dirak]] 14:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Back to issue: One theory states that the macedonian kings claimed, even lied, greek descent to advance diplomatic interests. However, the greeks and macedonians mutually saw themselves as distinct people —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek |Hxseek ]] ([[User talk:Hxseek |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek |contribs]]) 08:55, 3 August 2007

replying to hxseek> Hxseek why don't you stick to Slavic people, where you belong and stop spreading propaganda?
Macedonians are Greeks. Macedonians are Hellenes. Proof:

"Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you..."

*Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 14, 4

if you don't believe all these you can crosscheck them from their original books.

"Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service - but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay - and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops - Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes - they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they - Darius!"

Alexander the Great addressing his troops prior to the battle of Issus. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 7

*Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions."
Alexander the Great addressing the dead Greeks of the battle of Chaeronia. Curtius Rufus, "Historia"

these are -ancient- historical facts and evidence collected through centuries from various sources, Greek and non-Greek.

also Alexander's father name was Phillipos, a common Greek name. just like Alexander, all his families names were greek and have meanings in Greek. and in Greek only. Alexander's mother's name was Olympias. if you know a thing about ancient Greeks Olympos is their sacred Mountain of their Greek Gods. that's where her name comes from. where also the name Olympia, a city of southern Greece. and the name "Olympic Games". i guess you know the Olympic Games..

...

"
* Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably.
Herodotus, "Histories", 5.20.4 ,Loeb

all the above are pure ancient sources.

for some more modern sources>
*The Macedonian kings, who maintained that their Greek ancestry traced back to Zeus, had long given homes and patronage to Greece's most distinguished artists."
Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", p.48

i can go on forever...

and for the Skopians-Slavs who want to steal history i have to say. Be proud of whatever you are. But Macedonians in the blood you are not. and also>
* We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century (AD)... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Kiro Gligorov, (first democraticaly elected president of FYROM, referring to the citizens of his country), Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992

i would be surprised if any of you can stand half a point against all these facts....[[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 00:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

==Greeks and Macedonians==
E. Badian "STUDIES IN THE HISTORY OF ART VOL 10: MACEDONIA AND GREECE IN LATE CLASSICAL AND EARLY HELLENISTIC TIMES" by the National Gallery of Art, Washington. , Department of History, Harvard University http://www.gate.net/~mango/Badian.htm

:Facts- two Greek rebellions challenge Macedonian foreign domination. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/212.247.99.26|212.247.99.26]] ([[User talk:212.247.99.26|talk]]) 14:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Factually, there are many errors in Badian's article above, so why post it?

Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

==POV?==
Instead of learning things about ancient macedonians, the article contantly examines whether they were greeks or not. Well actually I do not thing that such thing as 100% greek exists as it does not exist a 100%french or german or modern macedonian etc. And it would not make any sense to try and explain ancient times with terms of nationality of nowadays. The point of view of this article reflects aspects of racial purity and fascism and it does not belong in a serious socio-cultural or historical study.
What is the point anyway? Because of the ridiculous name quarrel, it seems to me that the articles are being used for propaganda reasons -Eug

:sadly, this is true. These pages are plagued by nationalists who prevent them from discussing their actual topic. Nobody seems to be interested in the Ancient Macedonians themselves, all that interests people is slapping some ethnic label on them. I find this rather sad; a true patriot would show genuine interest in the past. In this sense, I have met very few true patriots in all these nationalist disputes disrupting Wikipedia. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]] 08:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I think this can only be achieved if and when Greece drops its monopilising attempts over the great ancient macedonians. The Macedons are common to the history of macedonia and greece, and at the same time not the equivalent to either modern Greeks or Macedonians. When we all realise this, then we can focus on learning more and more about them and not proving they are Greek, or whatever[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

and when the north or slav-macedonians stop monopolizing the geographic name of macedonia —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] ([[User talk:77.49.0.219|talk]]) 15:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 

:Oh brother. This discussion hardly constitutes a reliable form of consensus. If direct evidence emphasizes the ethnic or tribal identity of the ancient Macedonians, then it is our job as users to present that evidence. Unfortunately, there is no detailed description of the ''type'' of evidence Rawlison and Ramsey possess to support their arguments regarding the supposed Illyrian, Thracian or mixed origins of the ancient Macedonians. Personally, I could care less if the ancient Macedonians turn out to be [[Scythians]] who know how to dance the [[kalamatiano]]. What needs to be done is to ensure that direct evidence is provided wherever an argument is placed in the article regarding the origins of the ancient Macedonians. End of story.

:To be brutally frank, utilizing terms like "racial purity" and "fascism" to describe moments where users are presenting evidence that emphasize a tribe's ethnic identity is questionable behavior to say the least. Was Herodotus a "fascist" when he described the origins of the Macedonians? No. So, let us please avoid utilizing pathetic and cliche dime-a-dozen pejoratives just because we do not agree with things that exist in reality.

:Granted, I agree that users should provide data about the ancient Macedonians other than just data that discusses their ethnic or cultural identity (or self-identity). As users we need to stay focused on any tasks that will help expand and enhance the quality of this article. Talking about "fascism" and "racial purity" really accomplishes nothing. If a few "nationalists" have direct, verifiable, and reliable evidence that focuses on the origins of the ancient Macedonians, then I could care less about whether or not their collective behavior demands our use of trivial pejoratives.

:Let's cut the bullshit and get back to work. I deeply apologize for the profanity, but users should know better by now regarding what needs to be done in terms of enhancing the quality of extant (and so-called "controversial") articles. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 15:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

to Hxseek: when Greeks (and many others) show what the ancient Macedonians were, they are monopolizing? but a Slavic group claims heritage and usage of the name Macedonian in a national way it is not? ...[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 11:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

==Recent edits==

Hkseek, hxseeker or whatever, for once I will try to tell you somethings (although I seriously doupt you will understand).

-This article and generally the articles conserning [[Macedon]] are not a ''Greek POV'' as you claim. They are a product of serious talks and contributions by many editors and represent mainstream theories.

-It is obvious that you use [[pseudohistory]] sites like ''historyofmacedonia.org'' or similar Slavomacedonian sites as your sources and that from there you find your ''evidences''. Reproducing such fallacies won't help you and people can not take you seriously.

-If you would bother to read the article you might be able to see that it states that ''Besides the theory which regards Macedonians as a Greek-speaking tribe (Masson, Hammond), the Macedonians were sometimes spoken of as a tribe of Thrace, the land north-east of Greece, akin to the Thracians.(Sir William M. Ramsey). Rather than a Greek origin, some scholars argue that the ancient Macedonians had an Illyrian or Thracian origin. It is also possible that the ancient Macedonians underwent ethnogenesis syncretizing Greek as well as Illyrian, and Thracian elements (cf. Borza, et al.)''. Searcing historyofmacedonia.org to find all the quotes by scolars who share these theories '''does not addes gravity''' to your claims, nor it proves anything more than the obvious: that some have these theories, but most think otherwise, as it has been said, proved and proved again and again in this and similar talk pages. Try to read some of these, before editing.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 07:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with most of what you say. And i din't state that this particular article is POV. Its just the language section i think tends to make the conclusion that the languag was greek a little too explicitly, when most would agree that the conclusion is still not 100% due to the fact that (a) little, if no, ancient macedonian text exists (b) the couple of hundred ancient macedonian words are not really sufficient to definitively decide a conclusion (although I am no linguist) and many words are actually hellenised because of the overwhelming cultural influence of Greece. As for you attack on my sources, I don't see why scholars from england or the US would have a POV on the matter. In fact i didn;t use any Macedonian (slav) thoughts. It appears that some people like to gloss over theories which don't agree with the greek side

However, contrary to what you may beleive, I am not necessarily trying to advance the view that Macedonians aren't greek.
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hxseek: you say that "little, if no, ancient macedonian text exists". Based on such an argument, namely on the non-existence of texts, we could speculate that there may have been hundreds of other languages. The only language we know for sure that was spoken in ancient Macedonia is Greek, Macedonian Greek. I am not aware of any references to a distinct, non-Greek, 'Macedonian language'. Besides, Greek cities or regions occasionally accused eachother of speaking poor Greek or even of not being Greek. The Athenians did it to the Spartans and to the Macedonians, the Spartans to the other Greeks, aso... [[User:Politis|Politis]] 11:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

== Helle. TOpic ancient macedonian language ==

Hi Kapnisma. The reason for my editing of the introduction for 'ancient macedonians' article is as follws: It reads

"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language, belonged to the Koine Greek speaking population in Hellenistic times"

I beleive this is an unclear statement. From what i understand, Koine Greek is the language that came into common use after antiquity, the result of the 4 main ancient greek dialects. ANd, yes, this language became widespread in anceint Macedonia during the time of Alexander the Great. WHat is not known is whether it was spoken by everbody in Macedonia, or just the nobles/ traders/ administators, etc

But that is beside the point. An introductory paragraph should outline the theories about the nature of ancient macedonian language itself. Ie it would be more appropriate to state something like "Theories regarding the ancient macedonian language differ, with scholars placing it either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, a distinct though related language to greek, or an altogether seperate Indo-European language. Whatever the case, it belongs to the paleo-Balkan language group, as does Greek, Thracian and Illyrian".

{I am note trying to be anti-Greek. I am genuinely interested in the topic and simply what to make the article as best as it can be)
[[User:203.166.99.230|203.166.99.230]] 07:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you are Hxseeker, now about whether Koine Greek was spoken as you put it ''just by the nobles/ traders/ administators, etc'', the '''6000 inscriptions''' of it that have been found across Macedonia (in graves, pottery, stones, degrees, etc), combined with '''[[Pella katadesmos]]''', other Doric inscriptions and the '''absolute absence''' of any other inscription in any form of a mystirious forgotten language or in Illyrian or Thracian is the '''main''' reason why most researchers are concluding that although we do not have enough data to adequately classify their language it most propably was if not a form of Greek, then a sibling language and a fact that those who reject it have no explanation and a response to that. (Please, do not start quoting from the '''usual sites''' that you use as source every single one who has your views again, as proof)

[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 08:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

:I'll have to correct you on this. When linguists talk about whether Ancient Macedonian was Greek or not, they definitely, always, mean exactly that forgotten, unwritten, mysterious language that is ''not'' what the inscriptions are. The language in which ''gotán'' meant 'pig' and ''danós'' meant 'death'. The inscriptions are Greek, pure and simple, of course. That the other language, whatever it was, did not get written is no surprise at all. 99% of all ancient languages never got written. Whether or not that mysterious "other" language was what the majority of Macedonians would have spoken at the time of Alexander is yet another question. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:: and whether or not that "mysterious" language is a ghost language that never really existed, but you make it up out of your..mind in order to make a [[hypothesis]] is also another question. what is not in question is that ancient Macedonians as a whole spoke [[Koine Greek]] and no other language by the [[Hellenistic era]], they also spoke Attic earlier, and a NW Doric Greek dialect even earlier.[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 11:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I was refering to whether the Koine Greek was spoken just by ''some'', as our friend was suggesting, or by the whole population during Hellenistic era. Secondary, that ''forgotten, unwritten, mysterious language'', apart from ''gotan'' and ''danos'' (rather curious indeed, if greek), also included hundreds of greek first names (not only the well known ''Alexander'' and ''Phillip'', but also ''Ptolemaieos'', ''Orontes'', ''Polysperhon'', ''Perdikkas'', etc), dozens of greek placenames (''Pella'', ''Aegae'', ''Lete'', ''Aliakmon'', ''Argos Orestikon'', etc), tens of other easily understandable as greek words for social associations, such as ''etairos'', names of months, etc, etc. All these, combined with the fact that no other inscriptions, apart from greek ones was '''ever''' found is an '''unchallengeable''' fact not easily expalinable with naive arguments like ''common indoeuropean legacy''.
To conclude, their language although hard to classify due to lack of data, can easily explained as beloging to Greek family, rather that any other else, according to the above. Of course, there are other views too, but they can not give adequate answers why a non greek population was giving greek names to their people, cities, mountains, rivers, etc (O. Masson) or why the archaelogical researches reveals clearly greek pottery, artcrafts, architectural style, etc in their cities and graves and not something else as the findings in Illyrian and Thracian graves and cities are giving us.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 17:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I see what you are saying, but you as Future Perf said, ancient Macedonian was not written. So the words 'discovered' in Macedonia could be Greek ''per se'' (not Macedonian), thus giving a conclusion that the macedonian language was greek, or something similar. None of what you have stated actually disproves our points

Similar situations have occurred even in not as distant history, whenever a culturally dominant people interacts with other culturs. Eg the Germanization of Boheimian nobles during the late middle ages. They spoke, legislated and wrote in German. An archeologist from the future, finding German inscriptions throughtout Bohemia, would concluded that the boheimians were Germans and spoke German, although we very well know that they are not. In fact the large majority of the masses did not even speak any German, but being largely illeterate, they might have left no traces of Boheimian language. Just an analogy (and czeque language was written, but just an illustrative point)

Now, all i was saying is that you may want to clarify the intro. Yes, ancient macedonia came to speak Koine Greek during and after Alexander the GReat, but before this, the exact nature of their language was unknown. As i said before "Theories regarding the ancient macedonian language differ, with scholars placing it either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, a distinct though related language to greek, or an altogether seperate Indo-European language. Whatever the case, it belongs to the paleo-Balkan language group, as does Greek, Thracian and Illyrian". And we may never know because of the lack of written anceint macedonian words. Many words found throughout Macedonia are pure and simply Greek, being interpreted by some scholars as proof that ancient macedonian language was greek. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 00:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments, Hxseek, have been responded above and if you consider yours as more solid, let's leave it to the understanding of someone else who will also read our conversation. But, risking repeating myself, I will tell you that you have failed to explain why there is '''not even a single one''' word found in any other language, apart from Greek, why '''the toponyms''' are Greek, why, finally '''archeology reveals greek art, greek burial customs, greek pottery, etc, etc''' everywhere in Macedonia.
As it concerns your other argument ''the Germanization of Boheimian nobles during the late middle ages'' an archaeologist from the future '''wouldn't''' suppose they were German, because i)their names were Bohemian (while the approximately 600 Macedonian ones, saved to us, ARE Greek [Hoffmann, O. Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum for the entire vocabulary]), ii)their cities, rivers, mountains were in Bohemian language, not in German (while Macedonian ones ARE, again Greek), iii) the artistic style of their artcrafts, the type of their houses, their burial customs, etc, etc was not German (while Macedonian ones ARE Greek).
So, you can understand what both I and the article are saying: That although the data, saved to us, is not enough, due to the above, most researchers consider Macedonian language to be Greek, or at least belonging to Greek family, but some others believe something else.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 11:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, although there would be large differences in development of nationalist consciousness between antiquity and medieval times . Anyway, all i was trying to impress upon you is that maybe the intro could be modified. I wrote it in the discussion forum out of good faith. What I proposed aimed to incorporate the different theories re: language. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek|contribs]]) 04:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC) 

: Actually the argument that there are "not many" or "few" inscriptions dating before the mid 4th century does not bear any gravity, since fist of all it is a very subjective argument. Instead of saying that "there are thousands of inscriptions that prove...", we could always claim the exact truth. "That there are NO inscriptions found from the age of Macedon yet that are in a language different from Greek". This is true and until we have a number of the Greek inscriptions, we make a strong point while allowing for other inscriptions to be found, if ever...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== About merging the article with Macedon==

Definely no. This article contains quit detailed information about the ancient macedonians that if included in the article of Macedon will simply make the latter very long, and very difficult to follow. I thing that the current format is fine with links from the one article to the other [[User:Italiotis|Italiotis]] 17:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:The material could easily be shortened. There's quite a lot of unnecessary overlap with yet a third article, [[Ancient Macedonian language]], which means the language paragraph should really just be a brief summary anyway. There's also far too many long block quotes, all of this can be reduced and summarised. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 17:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

indeed. [[Ancient Macedonians]] is little more than an argumentative pov-fork. What are "Ancient Macedonians"? They are the inhabitants of [[Macedon]]. That's it. Everything is concerned with the modern nationalist "were they Greeks?" question. Nobody seems to be interested in discussing them as a group in their own right. This is {{tl|coatrack}}ing. Argumentative blather about Greekness of Macedonians belongs on [[Macedonian naming dispute]], [[Macedonism]] or [[Greek nationalism]], not here. What can we say about the Macedonians? They were Atticized from the 5th century -- like Macedon. Before the 5th century, they spoke a separate language, the [[Ancient Macedonian language]]. <s>Hey, let us tell you about this language (about 60% of article, never mind that it has its own very detailed article). Finally, here's a list of Macedonians, and an anecdote about participation in the Olympic Games.</s> There is ''nothing'' here that could not be either pruned as redundant, or merged into a short "population" section at [[Macedon]]. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]] 08:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If they spoke a separate language or a separate dialect is the unanswered question for both sides
and has nothing to do with the modern disputes

[[User:77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] 15:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

and nobody seems to be interested in discussing what the Macedonians said about themselves(self-determination right)

and Not what the other groups said about them

[[User:77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] 15:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

::: Actually all texts from any civilization of the time determined the Macedonians as Greeks. The Persians, the Romans, the Jews...

We know that the Persians called them "Greeks with broad hats"

The Romans clearly determined them as Greeks

“For if all the wars which we have carried on '''against the Greeks''' are to be despised, then let the triumph of Marcus Curius over king Pyrrhus be derided; and that of Titus Flamininus '''over Philip'''; and that of Marcus Fulvius over the Aetolians; and that of Lucius Paullus over king Perses; and that of '''Quintus Metellus over the false Philip'''; and that of Lucius Mummius over the Corinthians. (Orations of Cicero)

The Jews...

“And when he had said this to Parmenio, and had given the high priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that '''one of the Greeks''' should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended.” (Josephus, Book IX, 8.5)

The bible...

From The Machabees...

“1:11. And there came out of them a wicked root, Antiochus the Illustrious, the son of king Antiochus, who had been a hostage at Rome: and he reigned in the hundred and thirty-seventh year of the '''kingdom of the Greeks'''.”

“11:24. And we have heard that the Jews would not consent to my father to turn to the '''rites of the Greeks''' but that they would keep to their own manner of living and therefore that they request us to allow them to live after their own laws.”

And many others...

Actually there is only ONE argument as to the barbarism of the Macedonians from Demosthenes, and even he only claimed it ONCE in thousands of lines he wrote in many orations against Phillip...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Do not merge. Article should remain as there are articles about other ancient populations. It is also important to have arguments about their origin.
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] 08:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No merge. This is an important article concerning the modern [[Macedonian naming dispute]]. — [[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]] ([[User talk:EliasAlucard|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/EliasAlucard|contribs]]) 13:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge? Of course not. Then we should have to merge all country articles with people articles. Do our friends from the north want to merge [[Republic of Macedonia]] with [[Macedonians (ethnic group)]]? since the latter is "an argumentative POV-fork"? Don't think so...--[[User_talk:Avg|   Avg   ]] 19:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Thracian Kings and Olympic games ==
Were exactly are the references that Thracians Kings were talking part in the Olympic games?? Can someone provide a link or a reference so that we can verify this claim?
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 17:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Some newspapers are not proof or reliable references for an incredible fact that a Thracian king could participate to the Olympic Games. Please provide a real reference or if possible the quote from the original ancient text that said so!
The only possibility of participating is only if he was of Greek descent and only if he was able to prove it! Being an honorable citizen of Athens would have given him the right to participate as a viewer and not as an athlete!
I am deleting the passage unless a reference from a respectful historian can be found or at list the quote from the original ancient Greek text is found!
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 10:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Map ==

[[Image:Macedon2.JPG|thumb|right|Ugly map]]
We currently have this map in the article. It's probably useful, but terribly ugly. I'd be prepared to re-draw it, I think I could produce something better. Is the content of the map as such uncontroversial? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
::You know what i think and what i will source to back it..Its ok but ugly.Also pointing out the territories would be better.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 09:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm just talking about territories. The map will not touch on the ethnic character of either the Macedonians or any of their neighbours. This was really just a factual question: are those borders approximately correct? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
::I believe i have seen the original map for this a while ago thought i cant find it right now(curses).Approximately this is the expanansion but we have to verify.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 09:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

== Deleted Proof, Deleted evidence about the Greekness of Macedonians==

why do you delete evidence?
why is this article not including the fact that "All of the over 6000 inscriptions found in Macedonia until now are in Greek: ''Inscriptiones Graecae, Part X: Inscriptiones Epiri, Macedoniae, Thraciae, Scythiae.'' Multiple vols., Berlin. See [http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/ Online Epigraphical Database]"

is there a reason? why do you hide evidence like that? if there is not, can you see why we should not put this in there? how can the reader know about ancient Macedonian inscriptions? it must be there. [[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 14:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

:Few of them may be relevant. The ones before 330 BC and the ones bearing peculiar Greek names or words.[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 12:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

== Modern scholars section ( ''per [[WP:RS]]'') ==

Modern scholars section is poor and definitely needs to be updated. We got opinion here of William Mitchell Ramsay (died 1939) and George Rawlinson (diet 1902) claiming an Illyrian or Thracian origin of ancient Macedonians while more than 80 '''actually modern''' respected and reliable scholars stating ancient Macedonians were Greek are not mentioned! I understand that perhaps it’s too much to cite 80 scholars, but we can cite 40, or even 20. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 08:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
::Yep the oldies must be removed.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 08:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:::I’ve updated it. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 12:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

== Tellon from Orestis ==

::Tellon ''is probably'' this fella "Τέλλων Μαινάλιος παίδων πύξ" Anonymi Historici (FGrH)(1139) Victores olympici(fort auctore Phlegonte vel Eratosthene)(P.oxy 222)(026),Occurence volume-Jacobi#F 3b,415,F fragment 1 line 16.
*There is a huge list of olympic winners. [[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 15:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
::And the name is attested as "Τέλλον" as well[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 15:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

== Massive source addition. ==

Honestly, don't you think that this is a bit over the top? I'm sure many sources could be found to support ''all'' views in the section. Can we just stick to the ones already included? [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 16:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
: Though not even 1/4, it’s fine with me. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 16:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Beside few historians of 19th century (with no archaeological findings at that time) and modern political motivated Slav-Macedonians there aren’t any respectfully scholars who have argued against the Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians. Even Borza has agreed.
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
: Borza says maybe..[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 08:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

===Primary and Secondary Sources should not be divided===
:If you want so many quotes without their secondary comments by scholars, this fits in wiki-quote but not in wikipedia.
:Only Herodotus has stated about the origins of Macedonians and we need the secondary sources on this specific passage [[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 08:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:: Added John Crossland's. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 15:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:Crossland's quote is about Perdiccas the first Argead king of Macedonians according to Herodotus. I was referring to Herodotus 1.56.1 "they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus".[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 12:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

== Herodot as to the Macedonians ==

What Herodot said was not that :

"the Macedonians were a Greek tribe left behind during the great Dorian invasion "

He says that the Greek tribe of the Macedonians who migrated south into Peloponnesus were renamed to Dorians.

The text presented in the article reads :

“ ...for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthia was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopia having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians."

Thus, the text should read that "According to Herodot, the Macedonians later migrated into (or invaded) Peloponnesus where they were named Dorians."

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== Ancient Macedonians were Ancient Greeks? ==

The doubt comes from the use of the word "Philhellene" (a term reserved for non-Greeks) to refer to Ancient Macedonians (by Ancient Greeks) and from a very likely distinct origin for Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks [Ref.: Eugene Borza, "In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon"]. Therefore the article should focus on the description of Ancient Macedonians and leave the doubtfull Greek origins aside.[[User:Ilidio.martins|Ilidio.martins]] ([[User talk:Ilidio.martins|talk]]) 03:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

:Man, you just don't quit. You are a man on a mission, aren't you? That is a very weak argument you make, because as people have already told you, in the ancient context "Philhellene meant "Greek patriot" [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23110917]. You've already been told this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedon&action=edit&section=33], but you just ignore it and keep repeating yourself over and over. Not only that, but you also have absolutely no source to back what you are saying. --[[User:Tsourkpk|Tsourkpk]] ([[User talk:Tsourkpk|talk]]) 04:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

:While the article certainly could use ''a lot'' of work (notice similar opinions expressed above; some argued for a merging with [[Macedon]] since this served as mostly POV-pushing, though it's been fixed quite a bit since then), it doesn't state that the ancient Macedonians were ''certainly'' Greek. In any case, I agree that "the article should focus on the description of Ancient Macedonians". Stop acting disruptively and make some proposals, instead. ;) (Btw only Alexander I was called a philhellene to my knowledge, and the word indeed was used for Greeks as well in antiquity. In such a case, we would need ''secondary'' sources that comment on/explain the ''primary'' sources.) [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 09:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

::It was indeed only Alexander I from Macedon, plus a couple of other Greeks from various places, and various other references on the same meaning in the Greek context. See [[Philhellenism#Philhellenes in Antiquity]]. [[User:NikoSilver|Niko]][[User talk:N!|Silver]] 12:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"Examining the dynamics of Macedonian relations with the Greek city-states, he suggests that the Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture into their own society, maintained a distinct ethnicity as a Balkan people"
-Waldemar Heckel, Bryn Mawr Classical Review (a review on "In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon By Eugene N. Borza", so stop citing Borza. :) [[Special:Contributions/212.120.7.4|212.120.7.4]] ([[User talk:212.120.7.4|talk]]) 08:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

== Error ?==

Before removing this part, does anyone have any reference to even one text during the early macedonian kingdom that refers to the Macedonians as barbarians?
I am not aware of any such text but I want to hear any opinion on this before removing it...

"During the early kingdom, as in the case of the Aetolians, Macedonians were often regarded by the southern Greeks as "barbarians". "

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

:Even if it were sourced, mentioning it is a blatant violation of [[WP:UNDUE]] and [[WP:POV]] , because it serves only to advance the agenda that "Macedonians were not Greeks". No rational editor would include that information in their article on Macedonians, unless if they also included the subsequent remarks that "calling another Greek a 'barbarian' was a common practice among rival Greeks in ancient times", which absolutely nullifies the original intent of the first premise. I am adding a {{tl|fact}} for now, and will be removing it aggressively on the grounds of [[WP:V]] in 3 days. Then, if someone insists in re-adding it (with a source, of course), I will add the source for the 'common practice'. [[User:NikoSilver|Niko]][[User talk:N!|Silver]] 12:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, someone did revert it again so I reverted it back.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

== Omitted/deleted words in Lede? ==

A sentence in the Lede currently reads, ungrammatically and ambiguously:
:"The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent and Macedonia'''ns''' Kings '''since Alexander I''' were '''allowed in the Ancient Olympic Games but contested''', an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4]."
[Added bolding indicates problemmatical parts.]
Logic and my understanding of subsequent text in the article suggest this might better read:
:"The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent, and Macedonia's Kings from Alexander I onward were allowed not only to attend but also to contest in the Ancient Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4].
I've tried here to preserve the original flavour implied by the "but", though I would be inclined to replace "not only . . . but also" with the shorter and more positive "both . . . and".
If someone with access to references [3] & [4] can confirm this version accords with them, could they perhaps make the substitution? [[Special:Contributions/87.81.230.195|87.81.230.195]] ([[User talk:87.81.230.195|talk]]) 08:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many clear problems with these statements and I changed them, unfortunately anonymously but added my name i the changes.

1. obvious grammatical mistakes

2. The "but contested" part makes no sense in English though I suppose that the person who added this wanted to say that Alexander I's Greekness was contested by the rest of the Greeks. This should be mentioned in the article (clearly not there)but dear Somebody, the verdict of the Hellanodicae should also be mentioned, that '''he conclusively was deemed a Greek'''.

3. By no means did only Kings compete in the Olympics as far as the Macedonians are concerned. We have commoners who contested and won, which of course in turn shows that common Macedonian people '''DID''' contest in the Olympics. We have the names of some winners and of course there are all those whose names we do not have since they did not win. I would also point out that the Argeads were not only the royal bloodline of the "Macedonians". They were a '''tribe''' of Macedonians as Strabo clearly says (text will be provided if info disputed, maybe it should also be added in the article). The Argead royal boodline was the Temenids.

And of course there is no evidence that Macedonians did not contest in the Olympics before Aleander I. We are also told that his Greekness was disputed, but overruled. Do not forget that at the time the Macedonian kingdoms (kingdom is a wrong term, since there were more than one Macedonian tribe and more than one Macedonian kingdom) were subject to the Persians...
This is why I added "'''at least''' since Alexander the I"

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 11:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

==heavily atticized??==

Could somebody explain me the point of this expression in the introduction? What does this mean and why is this here?

Does it mean that the Macedonians were heavily influenced by the Athenians by that time in terms of culture and language?
Does it mean that they spoke Attic by that time and not Aeolic or Dorian?
Does it mean that the Koine of the late 3rd and 2nd centuries BC was Attic?

This sentnce is clearly wrong as it stands there alone and unsupported. If someone supports it, he should make sure that it be analyzed in its proper place.

So I strongly propose its removal from the introduction, for alone it confuses rather than helps explain...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 11:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it meant that from the 4th century onwards they adopted the attic dialect (which is the accurate sense of the phrase).
The koine was developed a bit later. [[Special:Contributions/194.219.26.65|194.219.26.65]] ([[User talk:194.219.26.65|talk]]) 11:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

== Difference vs. Similarity ==

Hello. I'm fairly new to this, so please don't mind the way of handling things around :) I would just like to put this topic, so we can summarize what makes Macedonians and Greeks so similar or different. Here is a start (oh, and no poetry, like ancient citations or something, please):

- Has anyone of you ever seen a political, social or anyway else similarity between how Macedonia was organized, and how were the Greek states organized? :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 16:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Bobvo, if there is a point that you want to make just make it clear, so that it can be addressed to. Just making questions and waiting for answers with no clear purpose is not what we are doing here. I could easily answer your question but this is not what we are suposed to do here, so if there is a clear point, dispute or suggestion you want to make on this article, please go on and put it here for discussion. And please, try to be as civilized and unprovocative as possible in issues that attract a lot of fanaticism, issues like the Greekness or not of ancient Macedonia.

And of course, ancient citations are the main sourves we have on ancient matters whether of interest here or not, so do not try to downgrade their immense importance, please. They form the foundation of history as we know it, since archaeology alone cannot delve into such matters. I really hope that I have misunderstood your tone and innuendos, but if you wish for yet another fruitless debate, do it in a forum suitable for this.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 23:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC) 

Actually, it doeas have a point - the whole article is about Macedonians been Greek or not, pan-hellenic games, greek language, alfa, beta, bla, bla, bla... Is this article "The orign of Ancient Macedonians"? I think it should have some info about the Macedonians, at least about social organization, religion, habbits and traditions of the Macedonians, not just this pity escuse for article, in a form of verifying that each and every time when the Macedonians are mentiond, the Greeks are put in the same sentance. I mean, WTF? Get it right! Agreee? :) [[Special:Contributions/212.120.7.4|212.120.7.4]] ([[User talk:212.120.7.4|talk]]) 08:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

So... make suggestions. What do you want to see added or what do you want to add? And please, sign your anwers. By the way, this article is about the people alone. As far as their politics, social organization etc are concerned look up the article "Macedon", which is about their political entities. I agree though that this article has to expand.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 19:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC) 

OK, never mind the heading of this section. I would like this article, since it has a reference section bigger then the article himself, to be more concentrated on the Macedonians, not their (not)Greeknes. I hereby call upon those who wrote the article, to expand their nationalistic horizons and use those references to add something about Macedonians religion (Xantika, for example), customs, what were they eating, for example, why did they drink so much, know, something about themselves. I've read the Macedon article, but it says more about the kingdom, how do I put it... its macro-oriented :) I would like a little bit more micro-approach here, agree :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 14:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

:What Macedonian religion? Do you mean the dodecatheon? Who or what is Xantica? Give universally acknowledged sources or / and ancient texts. I agree with you that there should be more information on the Macedonians. So, if you have any sources you want to quote or any particular data you want to add, make your proposals here. Thanks. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

::I think that our fellow user from the Republic is referring to Xanthika (Ξανθικά), some sort of purification festival of the army that took place during the Xanthikos (Ξανθικός) month. Any more information (and addition to the article, why not) would be welcome. I believe Polybius(?) mentions specifics. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 08:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

== To expand this article ==

3rd Alcove, I agree that we can expand this article and make it much better than it is now. But what will be done must be done with care, for this issue is political as well as historical and affects millions of people. As far as I am concerned, I have no problem stating that there is a contest for the Greekness of the Macedonians nowadays but making it sound as though there was one in the past is very far fetched and should be VERY well supported. You mentioned two names, Isocrates, a politician who clearly believed that the Macedonians are Greeks and Thucidides who never in his histories disputed the Greekness of the Macedonians. If you want to use ancient literature (which is the correct way to go) you will have to come up with the exact extracts. Even nowadays, there is only a small minority of historians who try to support that the Macedonians were not Greeks and of these most (including E. Borza) state the assumption that they MIGHT not be Greeks, clearly stating that the evidence is against their supposition. Again, I have no problem presenting an alternate side as long as this is clearly stated, thatis that this is exactly what this is about... another theory, supported by the small minority of academics. You also pointed out that Macedon was according to Hesiod not a son of Helen, but Macedon was a grandson of Deucalion, a Greek by definition since the progenitor of the Hellenes was not Helen but Deucalion. Anyways, the dominant academic position is clearly that the Macedonians were nothing else but a Greek tribe and throughout the ancient years, there was absolutely NO dispute on this issue. There was NO historian, whether Greek, Roman, Jew or of any other origin that called the Macedoniams non Greeks or barbarians. Demosthenes used the term, but his adversary Aeschines did not. Isocrates, also a contemporary Athenian did also not call any Macedonian a barbarian. Read what Aeschynes said and you will be amazed of the Greekness he pours on the Macedonians. (He mentions common Macedonian names, talks of the common Gods and the songs the embassadors sang in Phillip's court etc)

So, should we want to add cultural information and details on the Macedonians, we have to do it in a scientific way that will not distrb historicity and if we want to mention alternative theories on the non Greekness of the Macedonians it can be easily done in a clear paragraph named "Non Greek orgin of the ancient Macedonians theory" or sth like that.[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 16:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:I agree with GK. I also do not have any objection to include the minority scholarship disputing the Greekness of Ancient Macedonians. But it must be clear that it is a minority, and that the majority has certain specific conclusions. 3rdAlcove non-consensual edits obscured, instead of clarifying this issue. On the issue of Demosthenes, let me just say a few things: Yes, he called Macedonians "barbarians", and I mention that clearly, without hiding anything (and why, should we, Greeks, be afraid of the truth?) in his wiki-article I rewrote, and brought to FA status. But Demosthenes' characterization had mainly a "cultural" substance and meaning. Macedonians were the "uncivilized" compared with the "civilized" Athenians, Spartans etc., who deserve and are honored to be called "Greeks". Demosthenes did not make a genealogy research neither referred to the "Greekness" of the Macedonians. According to his view, they were not "Hellenes" because they were not so civilized to constiture members of the "hellenic civilization". That is why they are "barbarians". Actually Philip is a "barbarian". His criticism is concentrated on him; not on the whole Macedonian nation. And, 3rdAlcove, do not underestimate the personal Philip-Demosthenes rivalry; two bitter enemies ready to accuse each other of the most horrible things. Being a "barbarian" is just one of these horrible groundless accusations; there were more by both men and their "puppets". Tsatsos correctly points out that "Demosthenes regarded as Greeks only those who had reached the cultural standards of south Greece and he did not take into consideration ethnological criteria."
:In general, I share the worries of 3rdAlcove about the article. But is he willing to undertake the task as a whole, and not sporadically? Is he willing to research this minority scholarship, and provide the proper references and citations? If yes, I am more than willing to help him with my experience in upgrading articles (if this experience matters at all). But non-consensual edits non-supported with material and references do not help. On the other side, co-operation and mutual work on the article could do miracles.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 10:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

::As far as Demosthenes is concerned he of course called Philip a barbarian, twice in all his speeches (another evidence that the characterization was nothing but an insult since his speeches against Philip and the Macedonians were numerous indeed). Of course he is also called a barbarian by Aeschines, his political opponent in Athens, who says that Demosthenes is a barbarian on his mother's side. This has nothing to do with Demosthenes's words but helps make clear how the Greeks sometimes used the term to insult rather than really characterize someone's Greekness. There are numerous examples of Greek writers calling other Greeks barbarians. What makes the difference is

a. the frequency the term is used (hundreds or thousands of times concerning Romans, Persians, Illyrians etc)
b. the context (usually the term barbarian is used not as an insult but as a determinant only and bears no ill meaning)

So one has to ask how many times are the Macedonians called barbarians in ancient AND medieval texts? The answer is : too few to mention... The Macedonians are mentioned in ancient and medieval texts as many times (if not more) as Spartans and Thebans together... Yet, apart from some political speeches of Demosthenes's times the Macedonians are NEVER called barbarians or given ANY other history or prehistory than totally Greek. They always are spoken to in Greek, they always speak Greek (if you read Arrianos's testament of Philotas' trial it is clear that the Macedonian "tongue/dialect" is Greek). Anyways, if needed we can keep on talking anout the Greekness or non Greekness of the Macedonians for countless pages. The important thing is that the academic community as a whole acknowledges the Greekness of the Macedonians and that is why their history and culture is taught universally under the term "Classical Greek Studies". This is proof enough that at least for the time being the Grekness of the Macedonians can be disputed only as an alternative theory NOT accepted but by the great minority of historians and archaeologists.

So... let's get to the point. Points to be analyzed according to my opinion are :

A. the different tribes of the ancient Macedonians.
B. their origin as attested by the ancients and archaeology.
C. cultural events taking place in ancient Macedonia as well as cultural events the Macedonians took part in outside their borders.
D. their religion (according to my sources Greek in all aspects, if anybody has to add something different he can always procure sources)
E. their language as attested by texts and archaeology (again if somebody has sources about some non Greek lamguage he should procure sources). The work of those FYROMian engineeres about the Rosetta Stone is NOT accepted by the international academic community (which persists supporting that the middle text is middle demotic egyptian) and we can discuss it but it can hardly be used as evidence, though the thory that the Macedonians did not speak Greek or spoke a "barbarous" Greek dialect can be analyzed.
F. any info on art, foods, science, technology would also be welcome.

Anything else?

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Concerning Thucydides: Do not forget that Thucydides called:"barbarians" even the Epirotes who resided in Dodona, which was considered by many (as Aristotle) the cradle of Greeks.The point I am trying to make is, Thucydides is not disputing the Greekness of anyone, rather the level of civilisation they had in comparison to Athens.--[[User:Michael IX the White|Michael X the White]] ([[User talk:Michael IX the White|talk]]) 15:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:: I already said that Thucidides DID NOT call or anytime hint that the Macedonians were barbarians... NEVER... I don't know how something like that could be said by someone who has read Thucidides. He even clearly differentiaites when he talks about an army of barbarians and another one of Macedonians...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 22:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Sure, no problem. --[[User:Michael IX the White|Michael X the White]] ([[User talk:Michael IX the White|talk]]) 14:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

==Disamb note, clean up tag etc.==
3rdAlcove changed the disamb note at the top of the article from "This article is about the people of [[ancient Greek]]; for the unrelated modern Slavic ethnic group see Macedonians (ethnic group)." to "This article is about the people of classical antiquity; for the unrelated modern Slavic ethnic group see Macedonians (ethnic group)."

It is definitely a minor issue, and therefore I do not intend to allow myself to get involved in an edit war for this matter. Nevertheless, I do not understand why it is so bad to make clear what the scholars' community and the historians diachrinically agree on, that the ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks (note that I do not say "Greeks" but "ancient Greeks"). This is the scholars consensus on them, as the scholars' consensus for the modern "Macedonians" (feel free to remove the quotation marks if you do not like them) is that they are Slavs. So, honestly I do not understand the rationale of this change. We change the note because of Demosthenes, one or two more historians saying that "maybe" they were not Greeks, and some groundless, vague and inconsistent criticisms of the established theory coming from fYROM? I bring this issue here for further input by other editors. I think GK1973 comprehensively exposed the diachronic consensus on the Ancient Macedonians, and if 3rdAlcove questions anything, and has sources and material to enlighten us, I am all ears.

About the clean-up tag I cannot disagree, and I first said that the article needs a lot of work. And I also stressed that if 3rdAlcove who correctly points out its flaws is willing to undertake the task, I'll definitely help him. Or even better, we can collectively with GK and any other interested editor undertake the task.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 07:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
:This is precisely the point at issue. The argument of the Macedonians here is that ancient Greece ended at Thessaly; I find it difficult to dismiss this entirely when [[Pausanias]] supports it. I would not object to ''Greek'' in the article myself, but I do recognize that there are two sides; the dab header is not the place to make these assertions.

:But the ''inhabitants of classical antiquity'' is no improvement; that's everybody in the ancient world. The Macedonians were a people/''populus''/''ethnos'', and if we need a noun, it would be hard to find a better one; I do not see that it invades the central question at all. So were the Ionians. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] [[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]] 21:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

*As for cleanup: ''holds a record'' does not mean ''tells'' or ''asserts'' or ''relates''; it means that Herodotus either attained an unparallelled athletic score, or has a phonodisc in his hands. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] [[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]] 21:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

:: I really fail to see the problem here... Noone disagrees with the fact that there is a small minority of academians who support that the Macedonians were not Hellenes themselves, even though they were hellenized and considered by many, especially Non Hellenes (like Romans, Jews and Persians) as Hellenes. As long as this is clear there is no Greek who would disagree with mentioning arguments and hypotheses on that point. BUT, it has to be also accepted by those who do not view the Macedonians as Hellenes that their point of view is ONLY SUPPORTED BY A MINORITY and is not the "new", "modern" or "prevalent" point of view. And then of course comes the question of how we should adress a dispute such as this. The answer is also clear. ANY serious encyclopedia over the world bases its articles on the prevalent position of the academic community and mentions the existance of other positions, which can be more analytically discussed in independent articles (like "The Non-Hellenic origin of the ancient Macedonians hypothesis"). Although there will be people from FYROM who will greatly disagree with this point of view, although I do not claim that their point of view should be hidden or buried, we could also dispute so many articles with theories such as "the Italians have nothing to do with the ancient Romans, since for centuries their cities were occupied by various German tribes", that "the Romans were actually Greeks, a fact they themselves attested", that "Hitler was a very ethical and well minded person who is brutally slandered by the victor's propaganda", that "the people of FYROM who call themselves Macedonians are in reality Bulgarians", "that the ancient Greeks were black" etc etc etc... All of these arguments have been uttered and are supported by actually MORE people and academians than those who support the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians. Is this what we want? To NEVER be able to write anything because some wish that their opinion was supported by more people? We can argue for pages and pages about the issue and it would be evident, as it is to any editor here who occupied himself with this issue even for a small amount of time, that the Hellenic origin and self identification of the ancient Macedonians is by far the most prevalent theory and is supported by the huge majority of evidence, whether archaeological or historical. This is why the academic community places the teaching of the ancient Macedonian history and culture under the Classical GREEK studies. Does this mean that the other theory does not exist? Of course not. It should be mentioned BUT it can't be treated as equal or we run a HUGE risk of having MOST articles in Wikipedia disputed and rewritten. So, friends from FYROM or supporters of this theory, place your arguments in writing and make an article to really present this theory and dear Greeks / Hellenes and the supporters of the other theory, make an article that will answer to these arguments. Then we can just stop this idiocy and refer to the ancient Macedonians as Greeks (per the prevalent academic fashion) BUT always and at all times mention this other theory and redirect everybody to it. I am really tired of having to be so careful not to disturb this minority by refraining to mention the prevalent historical point of view or having to persuade others that the other theory should also be mentioned...

As for the "inhabitants" of Classical Antiquity, it is a word that would be clearly wrong since there are inhabitants in a clearly defined SPACE and not time... There can be an inhabitant of a city or country or a house but not one of the medieval times or the 19th century...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
==The real Macedonians and the map==
A part of Albania and Albanian Macedonians territories including Greek territories where Albanians live belong to the territory of ancient Macedonia please refer to this map ,the name Macedonia is correct if Albanians are representative of former ancient population [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg] —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.78.64.246|80.78.64.246]] ([[User talk:80.78.64.246|talk]]) 20:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC) 

??? I make no sense here... Could you please rephrase?

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 05:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

==About ancient Macedonians==

I have reinstsated the phrase "people of ancient Greece". The reason is that first of all Macedonians existed before classical antiquity.
The second is that Macedon was part of the ancient Greece and as such Macedonians were people of ancient Greece.
The ethnicity of ancient macedonians is stressed extensively in the main text.
Further Macedon was part of ancient Greece, and still is part of modern greece, collapsing with the modern greek provice of macedonia.
By allowing a grey issue about that is equal to raising issues about the rights of Greece to its northern province and as such to indirectly support irridentitism against the northern greek province which is absolutely no NPOV. So in order to maintain a NPOV we have to maintain the phrase "people of ancient greece".[[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 05:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
:That's really pushing it. Wikipedia is not the vehicle for Greek grudges against the Macedonians to be played out, and many of your statements are not entirely supported by scholarship. "Of classical antiquity" is fine. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] ([[User talk:Moreschi|talk]]) ([[User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5|debate]]) 06:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Greek grudges is quite offensive and your point of view are extremely no NPOV. I demand your apology as this is not a place of trolling.
Second the issue of ancient Macedonians are completely unrelated to the modern issue. Whether some 2,500 years ago macedonians were an original greek tribe or became hellenised at 5th century BC i cannot see how it is related to the modern slavic ethnic group.
The way the whole issue is presented simply supports indirect irridentitism against northern greece. And it is completely no NPOV. I didn t add ancient greek people but people of ancient greece.This is very different.
Ancient Macedonians and macedon is an unrelated issue to the greek -ethnic macedonian dispute.
I expect some more arguments and not illiterate insults. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 08:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
:Please have a look at [[Ancient Macedonian language]]. The relationship of the Ancient Macedonians and their language to the Greeks of that era is a highly ambiguous one and is not as straightforward as you are making out. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] ([[User talk:Moreschi|talk]]) ([[User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5|debate]]) 08:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi. As I said it is related to that. Whether they were a people of pure greek origin or they bacame hellenised and finally absorbed by the greeks 2,500 years ago it is irrelevant. The same for their language.
Ethnic Macedonian leadership admited the same :
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992
We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35
The rest of the approaches are no NPOV. Nonetheless I shall not revert it again but instaed I would like to hear some more opinions based on the previous statement as well which is very scholar at the same time.[[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 08:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

::What is highly ambiguous about the ancient Macedonian language???? Come on people... Again... Thousands of inscriptions have been found all over Macedonia and her dominions that were ascribed to Macedonians. ALL are plain Greek. This "dispute" only arose because of a political agenda. For thousands of years the ONLY dispute was about the exact linguistic attributes of this dialect and NOT about whether it was Greek or not. Even if you support this theory that has the Macedonians use one language orally and another in writing (???), you have to admit that the universally accepted conclusion of the VAST MAJORITY of international universities and academics is that the Macedonians spoke and wrote GREEK. So, when you say "highly disputed", you actually talk of a bery small fragment of the academic community, whose opinion of coursde should be mentioned BUT IN NO CASE can be presented as equally important or equally accepted. As for the issue of the Macedonians being here porteayed as Greeks, well... whether you like it or not, this is what the academic community in almost in its entirety supports. The Macedonian culture and history are all studied under the term Classical GREEK Studies, (Romans are not...).

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

And further the discussion concerns a language prior to the adoption of attic greek at the 5th century BC thus 2,500 years ago. Whats the issue here? That suddenly 2,500 years later some slavic youngsters decided to change history and for that we have to be PC and turn our sight from the truth?
Because their prudent leadership only 15 years ago were admitng the obvious :

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992

So what is PC those days? To support a forged irridentitism or stick with facts.
Read the relative articles at Britannica and get a slight grip of historical accuracy.[[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 09:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Albanian Macedonians to day represent former antic population of Macedonia who spoke the Hellenic doric or epirotic dialect, a thraco-illyrian language from where to day Albanian language originates, but higher classes used the koinne dialect of Atiki. In case that anyone knows that then I am the [[Christopher Columbus|one]]. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.78.64.246|80.78.64.246]] ([[User talk:80.78.64.246|talk]]) 10:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC) 

Uh-oh, this has gotten ridiculous. Even Dodona (the above IP) chimed in with his wild theories... [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 11:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

“Wild theories” can be nothing more wild then this claim I do not see anything wild , why is that??--[[User:Macedoni from Korca|Macedoni from Korca]] ([[User talk:Macedoni from Korca|talk]]) 11:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

== Demosthenos and the Macedonians ==

... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors...

You know this, right? This is today considered ba Greeks as a political acting. Why isn't, for example, Alexander I of Macedon participation in the Olympics considered as political acting? I'm willing to write something about this :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 16:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything? You take your best argument as to the non-Greekness of the Macedonians (actually your only one) and you debase it to absurdity... What do the insults a political enemy of someone have to do with Herodotus's attestation that the Argeads are Greeks as far as he knows, as the Hellanodices also accepted? What political move, especially to a kingdom that was not consideed strong at the time? What you are saying asks for much writing, but it obviously is not your goal. So, if there is any real question as to anything that has to do with the ancient Macedonians, their Greekness or non-Greekness you are welcome to ask. If you only wanted to write about Demosthenes then you did and the meaning of his words are clear to someone who has read Greek literature. Can you answer why Demosthenes only calls his rival a barbarian twice in all his hundreds of lines against him? Why his contemporary Athenian orators, like Aeschines and Isocrates talk about and to the Macedonians and NEVER call them thus or anyway suggest that they are not Hellenes? Why he was accused by ancient Greek historians for slandering Philip and why he was himself accused of being a barbarian by Aeschines? And of course, even if his words should be taken literary (a fact that has been denied by the acadenic community, even by those who do not deem the Macedonians as Greeks), then how should one take the words of your top politicians (President Gligorov, Prime Minister Georgievski or Foreign Minister Malevski), people of far more political weight than orator Demosthenes? Anyways, if you have any serious queations, I will be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

@the OP troll: Demosthenes is already mentioned in the article. Isocrates who considered Philip a fellow Greek isn't, though...hmm, something should be done about that. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 12:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

==Makednos==

I think there is a slight confusion in the text. The ancient greek tribes are not tracing their origin only through Hellen in the hesiod theogony but through Deucalionids. Do not forget the name greeks come from Graecus a son of Pandora II , a sister of hellen and daughter of deucalion.
Henceforth the argument that makednos might be excuded from the greeks should he be concidered a son of hellen 's sister Thya is not a valid one, that why the correction. [[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 18:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This is correct. I will prepare a detailed answer to this in the next days... now I have to go sunbathing...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

== Doric in Macedonia ==

Yes, 3D Alcove. Except for the Pella katadesmos there are many other inscriptions in Doric although you are right that the majority of the epigraphy is in the (Attic) Koine, since they are dated later than the mid 3rd century BC. Even in that, though, there are many instances of Doric and Aeolic elements like in the conjugation of names. Actually the Pella Katadesmos is not the oldest Doric inscription found in Macedonia. Check for epigraphies found at Elimeia (dated as far back as 500 BC), in Aiane, in Aiges etc and of course there are the Derveni Papyrus, which is the oldest papyrus in Greek ever found (6th century BC, it also has Doric elements in its scripts), as well as at least three other katadesmoi etc. And of course thousands are unclassified Greek, since they are simple names or words that could be given in any Greek dialect. Let us not forget that Dorian or Aeolian are not a different language and share most of their forms and syntaxes with the Attic or the Koine Attic (which is also not the same thing as traditional Attic).

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 00:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
==source about Macedonian prehistory==

they talk about [[Mycenaean civilization]] there.
see:[http://books.google.com/books?ei=LI0BSZ7-BpS4yQTWjPnABw&id=340vAAAAMAAJ&dq=greek++macedonia&q=Mycenaean&pgis=1#search] interesting for some, i guess.[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 09:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:No they actually speak about the presence of Mycenean Pottery which is a totally different thing. LH (Mycenean pottery) has been unearthed throughout the Mediterranean (Sicily, Egypt, Asia Minor etc.) and its presence is not always easy to interpret. There are of course scholars that understand the existence of LH pottery in northern Greece as an indication of permanent Mycenean presence (see what Karamitrou Mentesidi says in footnote 11) but this issue is far from resolved. In recent years evidence of Mycenean presence has been accumulating but the question of its significance remains moot for the time being. BTW the phrase "The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black and white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far" is rather non sensical in archaeological terms. The term "Black and white" pottery is rather generic and has no particular meaning to my knowledge. The local "Mattpainted" (αμαυρόχρωμη) pottery (sometimes imitating LH mycenean prototypes) is what was probably meant, but this type of pottery is still not very well understood and documented. The source provided for this "Black and White pottery" seems to be somekind of popular archaeology documentary that shouldn't really be there after all.--[[User:Giorgos Tzimas|Giorgos Tzimas]] ([[User talk:Giorgos Tzimas|talk]]) 11:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
::first of all I didn't say what it means so don't accuse me of so and neither should you cause that would be OR. i just mentioned that generally. of course the archaeologists and historians must have a way of working and deciding whether a culture is Greek or just a culture that had relations with Greeks[[Special:Contributions/150.140.225.175|150.140.225.175]] ([[User talk:150.140.225.175|talk]]) 16:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:You probably miscontrued my response because there was not even a hint of accusation. I simply elaborated on the importance of LH pottery unearthed in Northern Greece.--[[User:Giorgos Tzimas|Giorgos Tzimas]] ([[User talk:Giorgos Tzimas|talk]]) 23:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

==Better approach==

Rather than dealing with whether or not the Macedones were Greek, or not, we should rather acknowledge that the Macedonians were a culturally and linguistically heteregenous nation. Whilst the upper strata were Hellenic, Illyrian culture and language remained in considerable areas of upper Macedonia.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 04:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:If we are talking about the Macedonians' ''origins'', we can't legitimately include [[Upper Macedonia]], which was not part of the [[:File:Map Peloponnesian War 431 BC-fr.svg|original]] Macedonian kingdom. If you can make a distinction between the Greeks and the "Hellenized" Macedonians, one must also be made between the Macedonians and the "Macedonized" inhabitants of the lands they conquered, no? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 05:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure. We can make that distinction, but this heterogeneity existed almost from the outset, not just after the great expansion, because on their movement frm Orestis into lower Macedonia they subjected Illyrian and Thracian tribes that had previously inhabited ''lower Macedonia'' itself. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:I don't think such heterogeneity is peculiar to Macedonia; the ancient Greeks as a whole were a rather mixed bunch. What matters is the influence these other peoples had on the culture. Do we have any record of the Illyrian and Thracian impact on Macedonian culture, other than the fact they once lived there? Or is this just another way of trying to say the Macedonians were anything but Greek? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 05:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to distort my words. There is sufficient scholarly opinion to include that the Hellenic component was not sole, not only in the ethnogenesis , but throughout the history of the kingdom, even into Roman times. It just deserves a mention in a sentence or two [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 06:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:It's already there (Ramsay, Rawlinson and Borza), unless I'm imagining things. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 06:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is mentioned. However, the way it is written seems to present the mixed ethnogenesis scenario as an outdated view (being the interpretationon 19th century scholars) whilst 'many' 20th century scholars now agree that they were, in fact, Greek (after the extensive archaeological research). However, even today the discussion in controversial, despite archaeological evidence. Moreoever, the article recites Theuclydes and Heroditus accounts of the Argead supposed descent as ''fact'' without at all acknowledging that such descriptions could have had propaganda purposes and been used as political ploys by the Argeads themselves. The same could apply to the use f Greek language and some customs - to better economic and trade relationships, etc

I think it is worth mentioning the proposed movement of Macedones from Orestis to lower Macedonia, is it not ? Perhaps better suited for the [[Macedon]] article, we should mention that, whilst certainly Greek was the koine language, people in such empires were multi-lingual and of mixed ancestry. Other languages were also spoken beside Greek [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:[[WP:OR]], anyone? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 15:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

''In the first millennium BC, the mountainous area of Orestis, near present-day Kastoria, and the valley of the Heliacmon river, were settled by a people called the Macedons. About 700BC, this clan had migrated eastward from Orestis looking for arable land. Lower Macedonia was ruled by Macedonian chiefs who subjugated or expelled the earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants, while upper Macedonia was ruled by independent tribes. ....While it’s reasonable to argue that the original Macedones who emerged in Emanthia in the 8th century were a homogeneous group, this is not true of the great Macedon kingdom at the time of Alexander the Great. A great majority of the Kingdom was not Macedonian, but Illyrian and Thracian. There were many different tribes that Phillip II welded together to form the Macedon nation. This mixture of people, few of who were unequivocally Greek, makes suspect any claim of Greek ethnic continuity in Aegean Macedonia''

''''The point here is whatever the ethnic and language character of the small group of original Macedones, there was a complicated mixture of peoples at the time of Macedonia’s greatness.'' However, ''We should note that Orestis, the place from which the Macedonians came to their new lowland home, remained essentially Illyrian in culture and language. We might wonder if this is a clue to the ethnicity of the Macedonians themselves''.

''The Greek towns showed even stronger resistance to being ethnically and culturally absorbed by Macedonians'' (than the Illyrians, etc). ''Wallbank says that the Greeks living in Macedonia only sometimes called themselves Macedonians. These town had once been independent, but had been '''forcibly absorbed''' into Macedon. However, since the fifth century when the Macedonian kings '''invented a family connection with Greek mythical heroes''' and '''adopted a philhellenic policy''', towns such as Borea, Pella, Edessa, on the Hellenic model had existed in Macedonia. In general they were loyal to the rulers of Macedon, and on special occasions they even called themselves Macedonians . Nevertheless the essentially Greek nature of these town persisted. It is worth noting the distinction Wallbank makes between Greek culture within the borders of Macedonia and Macedonian culture. Clearly they were different. Hellenes were recognised as different from Macedonians.''

''The mixed nature resulting from this combination was evident in local interests and cultures. Historian Tom Winnifrith even says it is very likely that even at the time of the Roman conquest, two hundred years after Alexander the Great, quite a high proportion of the wilder districts of both Macedonia and Epirus were still speaking a non-Greek language. In describing the people of the areas, Strabo talked of bilingual barbarians. Greek was the language of government and administration of Macedonia.. . The presence of the official language says nothing at all about what language was used in private, in the family context for example. People tended to be at least bilingual, speaking both the official language (Greek or Latin) as well as their own language. The first language was their own vernacular, probably Illyrian in the north and westm and Thracian in the east. This kind of bilingualism continued throughout the next two thousand years as one ruling power was replaced by another.''

From ''Greece and Macedonia. The Struggle to Define a new Balkan Nation.'' By John Shea.

So. No. Not OR.

There is no need to minimize the Greekness of Macedones, so don;t worry. I know how defensive you are. We just have to tell it like it is, and state that not everyone today, even after all this "extensive" research, agrees on the issue. We have to present it such and let the reader get all views- not the opinion held by certain editors

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::Hmmm... That John Shea... but he is a [http://www.expertguide.com.au/!DrJohnShea!_5807.aspx psychologist], [http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school-old/psychology/our_staff/shea_john.html not a historian]. As I remember, he is married to a Macedonian-Australian. In 1992, he wrote a book called: ''The Real Macedonians'' (Publisher: Macedonian Australian Human Rights Association, Newcastle, ISBN 0 646 10504 3). In the introduction to that first book he stated "I began the process of discovery from a state of quite profound ignorance". [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 23:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::Also, read carefully what he writes in his introduction of page 3:

"Probably everyone has heard the idea that the use of the name Macedonia by the Macedonians is a threat to Greece because it shows the expansionist ambitions of the Macedonians. Usually this idea is presented alongside the view that the name Macedonia is Greek in any case and should be reserved for Greek use. However the Greek claims go far beyond these assertions. This book presents ideas that contradict the Greek claims. In essence this book presents the counter-charge that the (formerly Yugoslav) Macedonians have a better claim to the name and the history of Macedonia than the Greeks in general, and even the northern Greeks who live in the lands that more than two thousand years ago formed the heartlands of the great Macedonian Empire. This might seem like an extraordinary position to take, given public perceptions about the issues. Such public perceptions stand as testimony to the effectiveness of the Greek presentation of their argument. However it is now my view that an alternative argument can be made convincingly. At the very least this indicates that the issues are not black and white. It also tells us some very important things about Greek nationalism and its possible role in shaping Balkan affairs."

Conclusion: Psychologist John Shea '''does not''' claim to be unbiased. In fact he indirectly '''admits''' he is '''biased''' against Greek position and naturally he adopts 100% FYROM's stance over the issue. Since the author himself, admits of being biased against a granted position (Greek), his further claims afterwards about "objectivity" in reference to facts are completely ludicrous, if not fatuous...[[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 23:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Lets analyse his falsifications further:

"It is often said that Alexander the Great was at least half Greek because whatever ethnicity characterized his father, his mother, Olympia, was Greek. She was a Molossian from Epirus, a group that some historians have believed was Greek by language and culture. However, authoritative writers have explained the ethnic make-up of the Molossians as they do that of the Macedonians: the upper classes adopted Greek ways and the Greek language, but were not Greek by birth. Relying on the writings of Strabo from Roman times to form this judgment, R.A. Crossland raises doubts about this supposed Greek ethnicity, noting the strong presence of Illyrians in Epirus. Although Greek was well established in the region, he says it may simply have been used by the leading families. Crossland says that even the existence of inscriptions in Greek around 370 B.C. does not prove that Greek was the original native language of the Molossians since the concept "Epirotic" may go back only to the fourth century B.C. and be basically geographic.
Furthermore, Crossland points out that the Greek writer Thucydides described a neighboring group, the Chaones, as barbaroi though their leaders from the ruling family had Greek names. Similarly, he classed the Thesproti, the Molossi, the Parauaei and the Atintanes as barbarian by associating them with the Chaones and not listing them among the Hellenes. If the Molossi and other Epirotic groups were not really of Greek ethnicity, then Alexander's mother, a Molossian, was probably not of Greek ancestry. Thus, neither Alexander's mother nor his father was Greek."
(''The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation'',
by John Shea)

Contrary to Shea's allegations actual historians have described ancient Epirotes as being Greeks:

"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994

"Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect)."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

"The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia...."
Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997

I could keep posting quotes, but I think you got the message: Yes, [[WP:OR]]. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 00:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:My point is not about the Epirotians. Whatever his credentials, Shea quotes other historians. Granted that the majority of historians view that the Macedonians were Greek, or related in some way, not everyone agrees. That is evident. However, my arguement is not about the ''origins'' of Macedonians, anyway. It is about the heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset. This has not been addressed in the article. Of course, the focus should be not lie on this, but it is mention worthy . [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

::But Shea doesn't say anything about the "heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset". In fact, he says quite the opposite: ''Lower Macedonia was ruled by Macedonian chiefs who subjugated or expelled the earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants, while upper Macedonia was ruled by independent tribes. ....While it’s reasonable to argue that the original Macedones who emerged in Emanthia [sic] in the 8th century were a homogeneous group, this is not true of the great Macedon kingdom at the time of Alexander the Great.'' No shit. A great majority of the kingdom was not Thraco-Illyrian either; it was Persian, Bactrian, Indo-Aryan and whatever else. Alexander the outset of the kingdom? I always thought he appeared towards the end. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 04:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I am referring to Macedonia itself, ie upper Macedonia. This was part of Macedonia proper before Alexander's expansion. Not India ! [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:::To end with it: Shea is '''not''' a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] since he is '''not''' a historian but a psychologist who -moreover- admits he is biased! Hxseek, provide reliable sources about the "''heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset''" and then let's talk about it again. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 05:55, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with mentioning the peoples conquered by the Macedonians, but to say that [[:File:Map Peloponnesian War 431 BC-fr.svg|this]] kingdom was heterogeneous from the beginning is misleading, especially when the source you cite says the opposite. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 06:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I mean prior to the expansion into Asia. The areas also included as part of ''Macedonia'' included non-Hellenic elements and these people were themselves Macedonians.

I am not familiar with the source used for the abovementioned map, but refer to this [http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/beginnings_hist_greece.jpg] and this [http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/greece_pelop_war_431.jpg] Note: Macedonia is depicted seperate to (other) Greek states
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:Were they ''really'' Macedonians, or just conquered by them? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 08:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

That depends on definition. Politically, territorially, yes. Also no, in the sense that they weren't the Argead's original 'clan'. As a comparison, were the Greeks of the Anatolian coast, or lower Thrace ''really'' Greeks ? [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 08:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:They certainly were, but does that mean the Thracians, Phrygians and Lydians were too? That's what we're talking about here. I have no doubt that many of the conquered peoples were eventually assimilated into the common Greek culture sponsored by the Macedonians, but that doesn't make the language, culture or identity they adopted any less Macedonian or Greek. Interestingly, Shea himself admits that the Macedonians "subjugated or expelled" the "earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants" of lower Macedonia. If that is the case, your claim that they were some kind of co-founders of the Macedonian kingdom is simply false. Furthermore, there is evidence that peoples such as the Paionians retained their distinct identity even under Macedonian rule. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 08:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Valid point, Kekrops. I shall continue my investigations. I will let you rest, but as a last note, I reiterate: there are ''some'' views that the Macedonians were possibly of mixed origins, or even hellenized Illyrians. This is mentioned, which is fine, and the weight of evidence supports that they were Hellens. All good. However, the last point doesn't ''disprove'' what I am saying. Macedonia was a multi-layered society with Hellenic (aspiring) noble family with many non-Hellenic elements within Macedonia itself. That other people kept their non-Hellenic identity doesn't mean they were not Macedonian [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 08:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:Why non-Hellenic but not non-Macedonian? If they were Illyrian as you say, they obviously weren't Macedonian either, except in the sense of having been subjugated by the Macedonians. I guess it all depends, as ever, on one's definition of ''Macedonian''. I don't see how the subjugation by the Macedonians of foreign peoples equates to your assertion that it was ''only'' the ruling élite that merely ''aspired'' to be Greek. They are rather separate matters. There was clearly a relatively homogeneous core of tribal Macedonians who were descended from the original founders of Macedon, and they were clearly distinguished even from the other Greeks who lived in Macedonia. If they were nothing but ''[[Grecomans]]'', to use a term popular among your people, would they not have rejected any such distinction? In fact, the evidence suggests that the Macedonians were always distinct from, and socially superior to, the other inhabitants of the kingdom, whether non-Macedonian Greeks, Paionians, Illyrians, Thracians, etc.
:I understand your desire to mitigate the Greekness of the Macedonians, but does it ''really'' make you feel closer to them, and if so, how? The Albanians claim Illyrian ancestry; perhaps Macedon was an Albanian kingdom after all? Where's Dodona when you need him? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 09:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::Lol! [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 09:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Greek is fine with me. LOL. Its not about me feeling closer to them. you appear focussed on outlining my desire to 'mitigate' the Greekness of Macedonians, which is not the case. Rather I am examining the complete picture, from a learned approach understanding that we cannot apply rigid, modern day, understanding of ethnicity to bygone eras.

Kekrops as for ''If they were Illyrian as you say, they obviously weren't Macedonian either, except in the sense of having been subjugated by the Macedonians''. That's incorrect. The Illyrians were not all united political body, but a linguistic category. There is no contradiction to say that Macedonians ''had'' Illyrian elements. And are we not going to mention that they migrated from the region of Orestis into lower Macedonia. Currently, all there is the mythical origins
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:Lol was for "''Where's Dodona when you need him?''"... [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 07:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

::You extol the heterogeneity of the ancient Macedonians, but when it comes to the modern era you restrict your definition of "Macedonian" to only one of the ethnic groups inhabiting Macedonia. The irony. Anywho, you'll have to cite some damn good sources if you want your hypothesis to stand. We have plenty of evidence that the Illyrians were enemies of the Macedonians, but not much about their alleged role in the formation of the Macedonian kingdom. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 04:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

In reply to your first point, Kekrops, you're incorrect. I haven't written material on articles citing opinions, or references, etc, supporting that only people from RoM are Macedonians. As for your second pont: "The Illyrians were enemies of Macedon". Not ''all'' Illyrians were enemies of the Macedonians. There were over 50 tribes in the Balkans generically referred to as 'Illyrians', which includes 20 or so in the regions of northern Epirus, Macedonia, lower Dalmatia, lower Thrace. There was a wide and fluctuant zone of contact between western Thracian groups, Hellenes, the southern ('proper' Illyrians), and the Paenoes (and Dardanians fruther north)- the latter two are probably of mixed origin. Politicially, there was an Illyrian kingdom which had wars with Macedonia. But this only included a few Illyrian groups, certainly not all, and was a subsequent development to the actual ethnogenesis of the various ethno-political groups in the region. Moreoever, from what we have seen, the dominant hellenic culture seen in Macedonia does not mean that ''others'' were not there. Yes, there is nothing hard to show for it, other than the (plausible) theories of some scholars supporting a mixed origin. The situation was similar in Pannonia. The Pannonian tribes were virtually completely Celticized, showing typical Hallstat finds. Even the pre-Celtic place names no longer exist after the 4th century [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
:::I added referenced info on the issue. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 08:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:I never said they ''weren't'' there; I'm merely disputing your thesis that they were considered Macedonians, or even equal to the Macedonians. I find it hard to believe that the non-Hellenic groups were of a higher status than the (non-Macedonian) Greeks, for example. What we need is less Shea-style partisan sources and a bit more serious scholarship. We could expand on Borza's thesis, if you feel your side is being vilified by the association of the Thraco-Illyrian theory with outdated nineteenth-century scholarship. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 12:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

K, why do you need to keep distorting what I'm saying (please show where I wrote that non-Hellenes were of a "higher status" than Greeks), and worse, politicising the issue by writing comments like the one above ? There is no need for it. Anyway, I don't think there is need to expand after CandO's little addition, that's all we needed. I agree that shea isn't the best source [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:By implication, if we accept your thesis that the non-Hellenes were Macedonians but the "Greeks" weren't. That ''is'' what you're saying, right? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 03:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

No. Where are you obtaining these bizarre interpretations ? [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 02:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

== Hxseek's edits ==

I reverted Hxseek's edits per [[WP:OR]], because Stipcevic's comment doesn't really give anything to the article and Peter J. Heather's passage given by Hxseek has nothing to do with Ancient Macedonians, see [http://books.google.gr/books?id=wCOJfTB7HtgC&dq=The+Fall+of+the+Roman+Empire.+A+New+History+of+Rome+and+the+Barbarians.+Peter+Heather&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=JMBa0bm4hs&sig=HZ5odw-KZwDDULmFP2zq1RewUEo&hl=el&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA199,M1 here]. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 14:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

:Stipcevic is a specialist Illyrianologist who states that Macedonians are Hellenized Illyrians, and makes the important point that cultural and linguistic 'territories' varied and swayed, especially in a region like Macedonia. Therefore, development of an ethnic identity is a dynamic process; whereby multiple influences, contacts and movements shape a people. Layer upon layer is added which ultimately shapes a peoples.

The final paragraph of the 'origins' section states that many scholars now see that Ancient Macedonians were Greek. Yet, some Greek Wiki editors unfortunately do not allow the flip side to be stated, that is, ''others do not'', and dismiss any scholars opinion which is contrary to their own as "non-expert". One does not have to intentionally look for anti-Greek view on the issue to recognise that the issue remains controversial and no theory is universally accepted, despite these miraculous finds in 1983 of greek writing in Upper Macedonia, which actually don't prove anything convincingly. Even if we acknowledge that the view that the macedonians were Greek is the view of most scholars, there is a considerable body of historians who think they were mixed or even originally non-Greek. Whatever, the case, the issue is still contentious amongst historians. This needs to be outlined [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:Is there any physical evidence that runs counter to the archaeological discoveries that have generally proven the ancient Macedonians to have been either Greeks or proto-Greeks? If we assume that the Macedonians were "Illyrians" (or part of the ill-defined "Illyrian" tribal family), then what concrete evidence is there to substantiate such a claim? I doubt archaeologists have discovered any form of material evidence compelling enough for them to associate the ancient Macedonians with the "Illyrians" of, say, the [[Hallstatt culture]]. If we also assume that the Macedonians were Thracians or members of the "Thraco-Illyrian" tribal family, then where are the supposed Thracian and/or Thraco-Illyrian settlements that would indicate the existence of a potential pre-Greek or non-Greek presence prior to Macedon's Atticization? So far, archaeologists have studied and re-studied the material evidence and have almost unanimously concluded that the ancient Macedonians were of either Greek stock or proto-Greek stock. That they happen to geographically exist in a geopolitical "wedge" between the Illyrians and the Thracians is the main reason why some scholars are intent on promoting "mixed" theories. Of course, what do I know? [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, the Hallstat culture is not the archaeological hallmark of Illyrians. Secondly, I am not saying Macedonians were Illyrians ''per se'', but may have been partly so. How do scholars know that the region was firstly inhabited by Thracians, then Illyrians, if we have no proof ? It is no secrete that the Greek expansion occurred from farther south, although the Dorians were initially in western Macedonia. It is highly unilikely that there was a quarantine perimeter b/w greek and non-greek peoples. Macedonia was a very mixed zone, like today, with the Greeks being predominantly in the south of the region. It is highly likely that some of the Macedonian petty-kingdoms were non-greek, although the Argeads considered themselves Greek. The presence of Greek artefacts, pottery, writing, etc does not prove against the existence of ''other'' elements. Being the dominant culture of the region, one would expect to see Greek cultural artefacts at some distances form the Greek 'ethnic zone'. Isn't this common sense ?

One does not have too look far to read in history books which state the issue of the Macedonians origins is controversial. I know my 'general', 'non-expert' sources are inferior to all your so-called 'expert' sources, but i'm afraid there is a marked discrepency between what is presented in published books to what is portrayed here in Wikiedia. Yes, the majority may simply see them as Greek, but others do not. Are we going to gloss over this fact ?

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 01:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:First, "common sense" is a psychological fallacy and hardly serves as a substitute for hard evidence. Second, the Halstatt culture is as much a part of the ill-defined "Illyrians" as any of the other cultures that exist within the same artificially created tribal family. Had archaeologists discovered either "Illyrian" (Halstatt/non-Halstatt) or Thracian settlements within the tribal corpus of early "Macedonian petty-kingdoms", then you could make a case against the so-called "Greco-Barbarian Quarantine Theory". To state, however, that some scholars subscribe to "mixed" theories on the ''assumption'' that Greek artifacts were used by "Illyrians" and Thracians during a very early stage in Macedon's socio-cultural development would require evidence of hybrid cultures. If anything, the "Illyrians" and Thracians were almost constantly at war with Macedon. What reason would these tribal groups have to adopt "Macedonian Hellenism" with the Illyrians conducting constant raids and the Thracians possessing kinship ties with Macedon's competitor, Athens? "Common sense" or not, but ''realpolitik'' figures that what your saying just doesn't add up. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 15:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Err, no. Hallstat culture is limited to extreme northwest of Illyricum. Political animosities do little to stop cultural flows. When sources speak of wars between Macedon and the Illyrians, it actually refers to individual tribes from southern Illyria raiding Macedonian territory (or what have you), whilst others were pro-Macedonian. It wasn't a large scale 'ethnic' war - Ilyrians vs Greeks. Highlighting that Macedonians and Illyrians fought wars , and therfore are mortal enemies , precluding any contact (which would have occurred ''prior'' to these battles, anyway - pre 500 BC) is a weak arguement [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 09:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:I never implied that the Halstatt culture was prominent. I was trying to explain the fact that its supposed "Illyrianness" cannot be disputed (for now) since the "Illyrian" tribal family is ill-defined to the point where historians and scholars have accepted their erroneous lumping of the "Halstatts" with other "Illyrian" cultural groups. So, '''if''' there is evidence of an Illyrian presence in proto-Macedonian or early Macedonian society, then archaeologists should be looking for indicators (including signs of a Halstatt presence even if chances of finding such material evidence is extremely small since, like you said, the Halstatt culture is limited to northwestern Illyricum). As for the "Illyrian-Macedonian Wars", political animosities ''did'' influence cultural flows regardless if some of the Illyrian tribes were pro-Macedonian. Yes, contact would have to have been established prior to these altercations, but political tensions were hardly non-existent regardless if one measures the impact of a specific cultural flow(s) to be significant. Ultimately, we're looking at a series of "kinship wars" (small and large). The Macedonians did not have deep kinship ties with either the Illyrians or the Thracians for them to acknowledge the "cultural flows" they supposedly received from both disunited tribal groups. The southern Thracian tribes had deep kinship ties with the Athenians to which the latter used as a form of political leverage against the Macedonians. The geopolitical and cultural dynamics of classical antiquity are not easily classified as broad types of "ethnic wars" (even though the Greeks were conscious of their own unique sense of ethnicity). Speculation aside, archaeologists would still have to find within the ancient geopolitical borders of Macedon evidence of an archaic Illyrian and/or Thracian presence. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 14:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::That's always been my issue with the Thraco-Illyrian theory. Where is the ''evidence''? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 14:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::You hit the nail right on the head Kekrops. It's not that Hxseek doesn't present intelligent arguments. However, the article cannot be altered significantly if there is no physical proof to substantiate the so-called "Thraco-Illyrian Theory". [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Alternative theories should be mentioned insofar as they are supported by serious scholars. However, I have yet to see the evidence these theories are based on. Perhaps Hxseek can enlighten us. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 17:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::I concur. But knowing Hxseek, I'm sure he'll provide something. If not, then we can safely regard the "Thraco-Illyrian Theory" as merely an unsubstantive alternative ''hypothesis''. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 17:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

At present I am working on other projects, leaving me no time to actively search for archaeological appraisals of early Macedonian material. However, since we ''know'' that Macedonia was actually firstly inhabited by Thracian peoples (ie the Bryges), then illyrians, I'm sure some evidence exists. Do we not know that there was peaceful co-existence between the Bryges and Macedones. When the Macedonians expanded their rule, they absorbed these other people. If the Macedonians were an archaic Greek tribe (with a culture which was rather distant to greece proper), ''other'' elements also existed. Afterall, when one ethnos invades another, contrary to what some beleive, the other is not exterminated, but merely subjegated and eventually absorbed. I find it hard to believe that the Macedonians ethnically cleansed Macedonia of other ethnic elements (thracians, illyrians). Yes, the archaeological record, at present might is scarce in support of a mixed-origin scenario. This could be due to several reasons. When one culture is dominant, it naturally appears ubiquitous. Secondly, the pervasiveness of 'Hellenic' material evidence does ''not'' prove against the existence of non-Hellenic peoples. Afterall, material cultures do not necessarily equate with the ethnic origins of the peoples residing within that cultural zone. Thirdly, archaeological discoveries might be skewed by what the archaeologists themselves wish to discover. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

:"I'm sure some evidence exists." In other words, there is no evidence, just speculation. Got it. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 12:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there is evidence. The fact that historians agree that a large part of Macedonia (even ''lower'' Macedonia) was inhabited by Thracians and Illyrians prior to the 5th or 6th century isn't a wimsical concoction out of thin air. The obvious slanted stance of the article is only thinly veiled by the superficially 'academic' manner it is presenented. Information is selectively presented to present a particular point of view, such as quotes from ancient historians, without commenting on the often dubious reliablity of these historians who only used their narrative to fulfil their contemporary political agendas. Not to mention the use of antiquated ideas of ethnogenesis, the "Dorian invasion", and an anachronistic representation of what it meant to be ''Greek'' in the 5th century B.C. No mentioning of the fact that it may have only been the ruling family which had, or claimed to have, a Greek origin.

If we want to understand and celebrate the glory of the Macedones, one has to be willing to explore the variable number of interpretations as presented by reputable sources; not to present the article as if the matter is a forgone conclusion. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 11:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

:It's good that you are questioning literary sources. But we still need hard proof to indicate that Macedon was inhabited by Thracians and Illyrians prior to the Mycenean period. The only thing going for the Thraco-Illyrian hypothesis is the fact that Thracians and Illyrians were living in Macedon when its borders ''expanded'' into Thracian and Illyrian territories (i.e. empire). [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

== I propose a warning in similar pages ==

"This page is related to the heated topic in modern times referenced in "[[macedonian naming dispute]]". It is likely that edit wars about the origin of anything Macedonian is taking place". Because wikipedia shouldn't pretend edit wars about ancient times related articles aren't directly and probably solely related to the modern dispute. [[User:Leladax|Leladax]] ([[User talk:Leladax|talk]]) 19:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

: I would not agree with 'solely' , at all [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 01:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

== sources needed ==

"nearly all of them advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin" does not have a source [[User:Mactruth|Mactruth]] ([[User talk:Mactruth|talk]]) 02:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

At present, the discussions focus on a ''primordialistic'' (and therefore an outdated and simplistic) approach to ethnicity. Debating about whether they were "Greek" or something else (whatever such terms may have actually meant in the ''5th century BC'') is futile and artificial. Continuing from above discussions, I have seen that archaeological evidence ''does'' exist that Macedonia was first inhabited by Thracian and Illyrian tribes, and that there is no reference to Macedonians before the 5th century. Herodotis speaks of them, prior to their migration, as ''Temenids''. This clan, perhaphs Greek -speaking, then migrated into Macedonia from the slopes of mount Olympus, and slowly established political supremacy over neighbouring, non-Greek tribes. There was no expulsion or extermination - genocide is a modern concept. So by a process of ethnogenesis, we can see how the Macedonians were formed, as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit. Naturally, Greek language was then spread primarily by means of cultural contacts to much of Macedonia, but certainly not all. The cultural contrasts between Macedonia and Greece remained visible to all ancient historians. Therefore, to classify their origins as "Greek" is clearly simplistic and chauvanistic. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

It is really funny how you choose to use sources... Herodot speaks of the Macedonians as being pure Hellenic. He stresses that they migrated to what was later called Macedonia from the South, how a branch of them later moved south and was called Dorian, AFTER it had entered the Peloponnese, how it (the Macedonians) taught the Pelasgian Athenians the HELLENIC language... This is what Herodot relates, whether you like it or not. So, should you choose to use him as a source, you have no option than to accept his story, a story that was never disputed, as far as the origin of the Macedonians was concerned in the ancient times. As far as other inhabitabts of what you call Macedonia are concerned, of course they have been of multiple and different origins, tribes, ethnicities etc, but first you really should define Macedonia, since at this time, Macedonia is just a fraction of what is today called "Region of Macedonia". Of course, among the inhabitabts, especially BEFORE the Macedonian migration from the South there were Thracian, Illyrian, Pelasgian or even more diverse tribes, as was the case all over, not just the Balcans, but the world... No ancient Greek ever denied that BEFORE the Macedonians, the same lands that were later occupied by the Argeads were occupied by non-Hellenic tribes (whatever they might have been) like the Bryges... The same applies to Magna Graecia, where the Greeks ousted or assimilated the indigenous populations, as well as in the Ionian coast. Again, regardless your individual beliefs, archaeology has not disproven any claims of the ancients. All archaeological evidence from the MACEDONIAN civilization, not from NON-MACEDONIAN civilizations which existed prior or parallel to them, point to a Greek civilization. As far as the spread of the Greek language is concerned, I find it very interesting that you seem to deem it almost self explanatory, although, you give no reason as to why NO non-Hellenic tribe of the day adopted it. Why do you find it so logical, that from ALL tribes that inhabited the area, it was ONLY the Macedonians who spoke and wrote Greek? If the Greek culture was sooo pervasive, why didn't it also conquer the Triballi, the Agrianes, the Paeonians, the Odrysses and all the other non-Macedonian, non-Hellenic tribes? Your assumptions are based on absolutely no evidence, while at the same time you try to both disprove ALL ancient writers, historians and politicians (except maybe Demosthenes...) while at the same time using them to support various other claims by quoting them out of context. I am really sorry, but there is a reason why even E. Borza has NOT denied the possibility that Macedonians were Greek as you do. Anyways...when the international academies catch up with your various proposals and decide to revise history, then we will be able to talk on a different basis. Until then, please, keep us informed on what the archaeological teams of your country unearth, as long as it has to do with the Macedonians and NOT with any tribe which happened to live upon Macedonian soil, especially as you now define it...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 01:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you misunderstood my points. I have not been "selective" in my sources, in fact, it is your compratriots who have been selective in the sourcing. They disregard any source which raises doubts about the Hellenic character of the Macedonians as "generalist" or "non-expert", see above discussions. One might interpret this as a biasing of sources, although I do understand and acknowledge that the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking. This is not what I have been debating against.

The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms. Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever, it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia. You say that no Greek denies that Macedonia was originally Thracian or Illyrian territory, yet if you again refer above, you well note that other users even deny this (eg see Deucalionite's comment, who if anything, is a very learned and rather 'moderate' user).

My point is that the Greek element introduced into Macedonia was a model of 'elite dominance', whereby Greek speakers from south imposed themselves and their language on the territory and its inhabitants. It was upon this movement and subsequent assimilation of peoples that the ''Macedonians'' begin as a people. To simply speak of them as Greek, or not, is simplistic and wrong. It denies the complexities involved in how a people begin. They were a mixed people which became increasingly Atticised, now doubt in part due to the political ploys of the Argeads themselves. Was it not only the Royal Family which were admitted to the Olympic games, and not other Macedonians ?

In addition, you would be wrong to claim that this process did not apply to other tribes. Although also disputed, some also argue that the so-called Epirotians (Chaionians, Mollosians) are Hellenized Illyrians. Even the Paenes and Thracians, which are obviously non-Hellenic, became largely Hellenized by the end of antiquity.

And yes, I do suspect that established and reputable scholars still need to catch up with modern thinking about ethnicity ! The old Kossinian approach to archaelogy and the concept of ''Volk'' is hard to shake off, no matter how many current social anthropologists have argued against such outdated assumptions

I leave with this quote ''Names of people may seem familiar after a thousand years, but the social, cultural and political realities covered by these names were radically different from what they are today''. ''The real history of the nations of Europe begins in the 18th century. This is not deny that, in the past, people had notions of collective identity.''<ref> Myth of Nations. The Medieval Origins of Europe. Patrick Geary. Princeton Paperbacks. ISBN 0 – 691-11481- 1.Pg 13-15.</ref>

To summarise:

Macedonia was initially setllted by Thracians and Ilyrian groups. This is evidenced not only by the ancients’ writings who called the lands around the Axius, the Thermic Gulf, and the HEART of the future Kingdom of Macedon as Thrace <ref>The Cambridge Ancient History.Frank William Walbank. Edition: 2. Published by Cambridge University Press, 1984. ISBN 052123445X. Page 273-85. </ref>. Eg Strabo ‘’Wat is now Macedonia was called in earlier times Emanthia. This territory was held by certain of the Epirotes and Illyrians,, but most of it by Bottiaeans and Thracians. The Bottiaeans, they say, were from Crete by descent (sic) and of the Thracians the Pieres occupied Piera and the area by Olympus, the Paeones that by the Axius .. the Edoni and the Bisaltae the rest of the land up to the Strymon’’ (Strabo, VII, fr. II).
As for the Illyrians: ‘’the archaeological evidence is clear at Verginia and in the lower Vardar valley, they were in control from some time in the 8th century BC to c. 650 BC”. Illyrian features typical of the Glasinac culture. Similarly, evidence of Thracian remains are also abundant.

Back to Strabo: he records the expansion of Macedonians not as "Macedonians” but as ‘the so-called Argeadae’. The author suggests that the homeland of the Macedones was in the mountainous area of the Olympic mountain and the Heliacmon beneath. Theucydides account (Th. II. 99) describes their expansion into the lands of their neighbours. Both Thucydides and Herodous agree that the expansion of what later became known as the Macedones was associated with a royal house, the Temenidae of Argos in the Peloponesse (clearly Greek). Yet, the lifestyle of the Macedones was one of semi-pastoralism (akin to Vlachs), different to most Greeks. Similalry, they organized themselves into ''ethne'' – clusters of small tribes- just like the non-Greek Illyrians. In turn, the Macedonian ''ethne'' was sub-composed of Orestae, Molossoi, Perrhaebi, Lycentsae and the ‘Argaeadae’, amongst others. With the possible exception of the Mollosoi, it was only the Argaedae who claimed Greek descent. And it was only the Argaedae who participated in the Olympic games. Herodotus writes that Alexander was accepted not as a Macedonnian, but as a Temenid from Argos.

The Macedonian ruling house spoke Greek and had Greek names, but “to speak Greek was not to be Greek in the 6th and 5th centuries, that was a matter of culture”. Hence until later, the Macedonians were considered non-Greek barbarians in early times. Clearly they had different customs, lifestyle and political organization to the rest of Greece.

Notwithstanding, the archaeological record is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century. Yet this Hellenization should not be thought of as a mass migration of “Greeks” from farther south, expelling non-Greeks. Rather “Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interactions. Such (sic) interactions were probably responsible for the development of the networks of contacts which facilitated the creation of similar customs”.<ref> Archaeology and language: the puzzle of Indo-European origins
By Colin Renfrew
Edition: reprint, illustrated
Published by CUP Archive, 1990
ISBN 0521386756,</ref> That is, the spread of a new archaeological culture need not require the implication that anyone actually moved; given that the cohesion to a material culture by certain groups might signify the acquisition of a new, higher level of identity. This is not to deny that there wasn;t some, ''small-scale'' migrations, eg of some kind of warrior-pastoralists. Herodotus and others’ semi-legendary accounts of the Argaeaeds might well be true. However, it more accurately suggests the movement of a small, new dominant clan imposing itself on other, obviously already mixed peoples. The disappearance of the previous Illyrian and Thracian cultures does not mean that those people also disappeared, but had merely adopted, or were eclipsed by, the new dominant group of the region which aspired a Hellenic cultural identity.

Thus it would be wrong to think of the Macedonians as a pre-formed people which existed in the depths of pre-history, an as yet unnoticed Greek people, biding their time. This is why there is no mention of Macedonians before 6th century BC. Clearly their origins are traced to the ascendency of a ruling group, or clan, which asserted authority over new peoples c. 6th century BC. Although the Teminids were Greek, the Macedonians were a mixed peoples.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 09:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I have made some edits in accordace to the discussion, refferences and the common sence. [[User:Jingiby|Jingby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 13:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I have to ask for forgiveness regarding the length of my answer, but I truly believe it is due. So, let's see your points...
{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|
1. At present, the discussions focus on a primordialistic (and therefore an outdated and simplistic) approach to ethnicity. Debating about whether they were "Greek" or something else (whatever such terms may have actually meant in the 5th century BC) is futile and artificial.
|}

First you say there is no point in debating whether the ancient Macedonians were of Greek stock or not. It is wrong to bring in primordialism into the discussion, since the question here is not whether today's Balkan nations have anything to do with the ancients but whether THESE ancients identified themselves as Greeks. There is absolutely no simplicity involved in categorizing this people as a Greek (or any other) tribe, according to archaeological and literary evidence. The term "Hellenas: was not artificial in the 5th century BC, as you seem to claim.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. archaeological evidence ''does'' exist that Macedonia was first inhabited by Thracian and Illyrian tribes, and that there is no reference to Macedonians before the 5th century
|}

As I pointed out, first you do not define the geographical Macedonia you are speaking of... In order to be able to examine where any evidence has been found, we have to know the extents of this where... So, are you talking about Illyrian or Thracian presence around Bitola, around Pella, around Dion, in Chalkidike or maybe around the Strymon? All these places have been called Macedonia, although in and before the 5ht century things were different. As for the presence of the Macedonians before the 5th century and references thereof, I can only assume you are talking about the literary evidence, which happens to start at this period. So in that context we have no reference of any Spartans before that... Yet, all ancient writers place the starting point of the Macedonian existence in a much older time, first as a Hellenic tribe which migrated north and then again south to cause the Dorian Invasion and then as the Temenids and their followers, who lived among the Bryges, a tribe, which does not seem to belong either to the Illyrian or to the Thracian group, a people which later migrated into Asia, probably as a result of a non-peaceful reality.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. Herodotis speaks of them, prior to their migration, as ''Temenids''. This clan, perhaphs Greek -speaking, then migrated into Macedonia from the slopes of mount Olympus, and slowly established political supremacy over neighbouring, non-Greek tribes.
|}

Herodot does not call the Macedonians "Temenids" prior to their migration north. He calls them "Makednous". He does NOT say that PERHAPS they were Greek speaking. He says that they WERE Greek speaking and goes on to relate how THEY HELLENIZED the Athenians. He also, does not say anything about them extending their supremacy over other neighboring Greek or non Greek tribes. This is why I said that you misquote Herodot. You seem to mix this up with Herodot's account of the descendance of Alexander I, when he relates of how the sons of Temenos fled to an unnamed Macedonian king from Argos, there forming their own kingdom. So, according to Herodot, the Macedonians were Hellenes, they were the same people later called Dorian and Lacedaemonian and they were the ones who brought the Athenians into the Hellenic world (as incredible as it might sound to some, this is what Herodot claims. Of course then, another huge discussion can be initiated as to whether the Pelasgians could be considered Greek or pre-Greek etc, but this is another question). According to Herodot, the Temenids were Hellenes from Argos, who ruled over Macedonians, definitely calling them also Hellenes, but under no circumstances saying that only the Argeads / Temenids were Macedonians. In conclusion, Herodot clearly defines the Macedonians as Hellenes and places the beginning of their existence before the invasion of the Dorians into the Peloponnese. The second story is about the Argead House alone and has a value of its own, since they are actually what all this irrational debate (not between me and you, but in a political sense) is about.

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|4. There was no expulsion or extermination - genocide is a modern concept. So by a process of ethnogenesis, we can see how the Macedonians were formed, as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit.
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How did you come to this conclusion? Of course this might be true, but expulsion and to a lesser degree extermination, were methods used by the ancients to occupy new areas. Why did the Bryges migrate to Asia Minor, if they did not have to? Isn't this expulsion? We can't just view the Macedonians as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit, since they are NEVER accounted as one. To have a multi ethnic ethnos, you don't just look at the genes. No tribe or people on earth EVER is pure (pure from what? since when?) but you have to see it in terms of assimilation. A multi ethnic group of people is a state like the US, where every ethnic group keeps (even to a certain degree) its own customs, religion, speech, even sense of ethnicity. Macedonians were just Macedonians. If (and in so many centuries, I bet they did) non-Macedonian tribes were included in their ethnos (a term not to be confused with "nation"), the latter were assimilated and became a full part of their assimilators. Themistocles, Demosthenes and so many other glorious Athenians were partly barbaric. This did not make them less Greek, even if sometimes they were slandered as such (rings any bells?). Wasn't Demosthenes called a barbarian, a semi-Scythian? Yet, he was a Greek and of course enjoyed all the rights and honors every other Greek did.

According to the Greeks there was NO process of ethnogenesis as you imply. The Macedonians were an ethnos BEFORE migrating/invading north. They were not formed in these lands.

Now the second part of this claim is even more peculiar... "a heterogenous POLITICAL unit"? Macedonia was ruled by Macedonians, there were no multi-ethnical councils, non Macedonian kings, a set proportion of non Macedonian delegates in any kind of assembly.
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5. Naturally, Greek language was then spread primarily by means of cultural contacts to much of Macedonia, but certainly not all. The cultural contrasts between Macedonia and Greece remained visible to all ancient historians.
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As I have already shown, according to Herodot it was the Macedonians who spread the Hellenic language, not the other way around. And of course it is also interesting, that the Macedonians were Greek speakers, while the Thracians, Illyrians, Bryges, Paeonians etc were not. Again you say "to much of Macedonia" but fail to make understood whether you are speaking of the Macedonian tribes or the land of Macedonia as is TODAY defined... If you are talking about the Macedonian tribes, then you obviously are wrong, since all are attested to have been Greek speaking, if you are talking of Macedonia as a geographical term, then of course, there were non-Macedonian peoples who did not speak Greek. As for the cultural contrasts you are referring to, you are greatly generalizing. First of all you group the rest of Greece, as if the Spartans had the same customs to the Athenians, as if the Syracusans had the same customs to the Cretans. What is it that strikes you as non Greek in Macedonian culture? Is it the architecture? The arts of painting and sculpture? Pottery? Religion? Burial customs? The fact that they were a pastoral society in contrast to the seafaring Athenians? Was the custom of the Spartans to have any deformed child killed a Greek custom? Was their Agoge a Greek custom? Were the Epirotans, the Ambracians, the Thessalians, the Acarnanians also seafaring? Were the hats of the Thessalians typical of all Greeks? Were Syracuse, Sparta, the Cypriotic cities democracies? You cannot just summarize the traditions and culture of all Greek states as "Greek" and then just say that the Macedonians' were different.. Please, make more research on this and you will easily see that Macedonian traditions were more Greek than those of Lacedaemon. You really touch this aspect from an angle that makes little sense. Should you like to explore the cultural identity of the Macedonians, then you have to research their religion, their rituals, their self-identity, their art, their language, factors that even today define a cultural identity, rather than whether they put one or two jars in tombs.

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|6. Therefore, to classify their origins as "Greek" is clearly simplistic and chauvanistic.
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This was not a good conclusion. To call everybody who disagree with your poor argumentation a chauvinist does not contribute to a civilized discussion, especially, when you are confronting accepted history and archaeology. It implies a deep disrespect to me and everyone else who happen to disagree.

Now... let's go on to your second post.

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|1. I'm afraid you misunderstood my points. I have not been "selective" in my sources, in fact, it is your compratriots who have been selective in the sourcing. They disregard any source which raises doubts about the Hellenic character of the Macedonians as "generalist" or "non-expert", see above discussions.
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I hope I have misunderstood, but it unfortunately does not seem so. You have been selective in your sources, since you misquoted Herodot. I am not talking about other sources, since you offered none (it was a small text, you didn't have to). Yet, you misquoted Herodot, which is a selective use of a source. Greeks being selective? Of course not. They know that there are passages that call the Macedonians barbarians (however few in number), they know that there are academians who support that the Macedonians were a non Greek tribe (however few). They don't try to misquote them but to answer to their argumentation, which is a totally different thing. That there are unschooled Greeks who don't know a thing about history or archaeology and yet formulate opinions based on what they have heard or read someplace is of course self evident, but the general Greek approach on this matter is much more appropriate than using sources according to whim. Herodot conclusively claimed that the Macedonians were Greek AND that the Argeads were Greeks. Using Herodot to claim that "not all Macedonians spoke Greek", that "the Macedonians were called Temenids, before they migrated to Macedonia" etc, are obvious blunders and misquotes. As for "generalist" or "non-expert" opinions, I can only offer you my opinion if you exactly tell me to which ones you are referring to. Are there "generalist" or "non-expert" opinions? Of course there are. Unfortunately, the web is filled with opinions of people who misquote, generalize, falsely translate etc texts to further their cause. Yet, there are expert opinions too..

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|2. One might interpret this as a biasing of sources, although I do understand and acknowledge that the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking. This is not what I have been debating against.
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Of course there is a biasing of sources. There are sources of value and others of no value. The question is always on what grounds anybody accepts or rejects a source. Rejecting a serious source should not be acceptable, arguing with it is. Accepting a worthless source is also unacceptable, using it to further conduct personal research is not.

However, your admission that "the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking" shows you are not yet another advocate of extremist positions, which makes me really happy.

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|3. The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms. Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever, it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia.
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Now.. this sentence for example calls for a lot of discussion. You first say "The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms". Correct. As far as all sources are concerned, this is the case. Then you proceed with "Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever,..." No problem with that, although you avoid the words "..or the truth.." and you close up with "it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia.".... yes its is... although it is more likely to signify the Greekness of the Macedonian tribes. Again you are doing a mistake mixing up geography with peoples. Your argument is correct if one interprets Macedonia as a place, which is what you obviously do, when you are saying, that then it was called Emathia (by the way, much less sources on that than on the prehistory of the Macedonians...). But this element, you are referring to, the "intrusive Greek element", was according to the ancients the Macedonians. Anyone reading this sentence will misunderstand your use of Macedonia and unfortunately (not your fault) will think that what you mean is that there was "an intrusive Greek element" among the Macedonian people. The question I am posing here is what did you mean?

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|4. You say that no Greek denies that Macedonia was originally Thracian or Illyrian territory, yet if you again refer above, you well note that other users even deny this (eg see Deucalionite's comment, who if anything, is a very learned and rather 'moderate' user).
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Again you are doing the same mistake... which Macedonia are you talking about? And what Thracians or Illyrians are you talking about? Macedonia in the current sense was of course in many parts inhabited by Thracian or/and Illyrian. Paeonians for example could have been Thracian tribes and they lived in the modern region of Macedonia before the migration of the Macedonians, Of course their land was NOT Emathia, nor was it called Macedonia afterwards up until much later. The Bryges, do not seem to have been neither Illyrian nor Thracian but they were non-Greek and of course non-Macedonians. It all has to do with HOW YOU DEFINE MACEDONIA. Macedonia Proper was not Illyrian nor Thracian territory, before the Macedonian migration, as archaeology seems to suggest. But it also was not Greek. You see there were more cultures/peoples/tribes etc in the wider Macedonian region than just Thracians or Illyrians.

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|5. My point is that the Greek element introduced into Macedonia was a model of 'elite dominance', whereby Greek speakers from south imposed themselves and their language on the territory and its inhabitants. It was upon this movement and subsequent assimilation of peoples that the Macedonians begin as a people. To simply speak of them as Greek, or not, is simplistic and wrong. It denies the complexities involved in how a people begin. They were a mixed people which became increasingly Atticised, now doubt in part due to the political ploys of the Argeads themselves. Was it not only the Royal Family which were admitted to the Olympic games, and not other Macedonians ?
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I really don't mean any disrespect, but as what kind of a source should I accept you? You come to a conclusion (already advocated or proposed by some historians, true) and you propose that to call them a Greek tribe is "simplistc" (yet another offensive term meant for all of us who advocate that theory and do not consider ourselves simplistic). But apart from just stating your opinion, you fail to present any archaeological or literary evidence to support it. Herodot doe NOT agree with you. Nor do Thucydides or Strabo, names you later mention. You keep on presenting the Macedonians as beginning in Macedonia. They did not. They were a FORMED people, MIGRATING/INVADING a new land... They were NOT formed in this land, so as to have to go back in time to see what the Ur-Macedonian people were... And of course based on this logic, then it is simplistic to call the Athenians Greek, since they were Pelasgians mixed with Ionians... the Lacedaemonians Greek, since they were Macedonians. Dorians, so, if it is simplistic for us to call Macedonians Greek, then how can we call the Spartans such? And this would account to ANY PEOPLE OF THE WORLD... Were the Thracians Thracian? The Illyrians Illyrian? The Turks Turk? The Goths Goth? The Slavs Slav? etc etc etc etc etc... Ethnologically categorizing a people is a procedure that takes into account many aspects, apart from the question "Did they grow out of the earth or did they 4.000 years before call themselves with a different name?".

There is absolutely NO evidence that would point to them being a mixed people, apart from suggestions, based on their proximity to other cultures. But then, the Ionians were also bordering non-Greeks, so did the Syracusans etc. Were they Greek? Of course they were. There is no evidence of any "multi cultural" or "multi ethnic" Macedonian people. No ancient writer ever suggested that. And as already explained, ASSIMILATED foreigners do NOT form a "multi ethnic" community, unless they are of a totally different race (e.g. African vs Caucasian).

As for the role of the Argeads in the "atticization" of the Macedonians, again you are making huge allowances. You are talking of a time when most of the Greek world was "atticizing". You are advocating a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence. Is there any evidence that the Argeads in any way forced their people to change their speech? Did any ancient writer ever commented on how the Argeads hellenized the Macedonians? Nevertheless, Herodot explicitly states that the Macedonians hellenized the Athenians, Strattis made fun of the Greek spoken by the Macedonians and of course there is no archaeological proof that any non-Greek language was ever written by the Macedonians, be them Argeads or not... And you confuse Argeads with the Macedonians... Even if the Argeads did try to atticize their people (an assumption that by no means would mean that their language was not Hellenic), how about the rest of the Macedonian kingdoms? You see, the Argeads, were just ONE Macedonian kingdom, there were many others... Why or how were they "hellenized" or "atticized"?

As for the Argead Royal family (again NOT the Macedonian ONLY royals...), who says that the rest of the Macedonians were NOT accepted to the Olympic games? Herodot ONLY says that Alexander's case was examined AFTER some athletes accused him of being a barbarian. What does this tell us? First, that when he applied, there was no problem, which means that normally there would have been no problem... And of course there is no saying if Macedonians took part before Alexander I. They might have they might have not. You see, scientifically , we don't know if he was the first Macedonian to take part in the Olympic Games, we just know that his participation was challenged, albeit a futile act, since the Hellanodices though otherwise. What we are certain of, is that common Macedonians have contested in the ancient Olympic Games, even if their first presence is attested after Alexander I's time. You will think that the absence of any other testimonies proves that Macedonians did not take part in the games before Alexander I, but this is not so. Although this probability is of course there, if we should categorize Hellenes, according to when we have evidence that they competed in the Olympic Games, then we would have no option but to exclude most Greeks from the Greek world. What definitely can be said is that the participation itself of royal AND non royal Macedonians proves that, at least to the eyes of their contemporary Greeks, they were counted as Greeks.
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6. In addition, you would be wrong to claim that this process did not apply to other tribes. Although also disputed, some also argue that the so-called Epirotians (Chaionians, Mollosians) are Hellenized Illyrians. Even the Paeones and Thracians, which are obviously non-Hellenic, became largely Hellenized by the end of antiquity.
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Every Hellenic tribe was hellenized sometime in its past. Even the first Hellenes, whoever these might have been, have to have been "hellenized" sometime in their past. But comparing the Thracian hellenization to this of the Macedonians is impossible. As I have already stated, according to Herodot, even the Athenians were "hellenized" by the Macedonians... Yet, we are arguing over the hellenic identity of the Macedonians during a specific historical time and of course you have to understand that "hellenized" can have two meanings. 1. Cultural and linguistic and/or 2. Ethnical hellenization. There were many hellenized barbarians in the ancient past, but they still held to their non-Greek identities. Yet, the Macedonians had a both cultural/linguistic AND an ethnic hellenic identity, and these are, as you have accepted, facts difficult to disprove.

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|7. And yes, I do suspect that established and reputable scholars still need to catch up with modern thinking about ethnicity ! The old Kossinian approach to archaelogy and the concept of Volk is hard to shake off, no matter how many current social anthropologists have argued against such outdated assumptions
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...well, this is your opinion, but it seems that you want to impose an ethnicity on the ancient Macedonians rather than acknowledging their right to one. In my book, when something looks like a horse, whines like a horse, tastes like horse, other people around me tell me that it is a horse and when asked replies that it is a horse, this something is most possibly a horse... The burden of evidence falls upon the person who insists it is something else.

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|8. I leave with this quote Names of people may seem familiar after a thousand years, but the social, cultural and political realities covered by these names were radically different from what they are today. The real history of the nations of Europe begins in the 18th century. This is not deny that, in the past, people had notions of collective identity.
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... I have no problem with that unless one should use it to minimize the historical identities of given peoples.

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|9. Macedonia was initially setllted by Thracians and Ilyrian groups. This is evidenced not only by the ancients’ writings who called the lands around the Axius, the Thermic Gulf, and the HEART of the future Kingdom of Macedon as Thrace [2]. Eg Strabo ‘’Wat is now Macedonia was called in earlier times Emanthia. This territory was held by certain of the Epirotes and Illyrians,, but most of it by Bottiaeans and Thracians. The Bottiaeans, they say, were from Crete by descent (sic) and of the Thracians the Pieres occupied Piera and the area by Olympus, the Paeones that by the Axius .. the Edoni and the Bisaltae the rest of the land up to the Strymon’’ (Strabo, VII, fr. II). As for the Illyrians: ‘’the archaeological evidence is clear at Verginia and in the lower Vardar valley, they were in control from some time in the 8th century BC to c. 650 BC”. Illyrian features typical of the Glasinac culture. Similarly, evidence of Thracian remains are also abundant.
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Strabo, VII, fr 11 (XI) and not II (2) reads : ''"What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia. '''And it took its present name from Macedon, one of its early chieftains'''. And there was also a city emathia close to the sea. Now '''a part of this country''' was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, but most of it by the Bottiaei and the Thracians. '''The Bottiaei came from Crete originally, so it is said, along with Botton as chieftain.''' As for the Thracians, the Pieres inhabited Pieria and the region about Olympus; the Paeones, the region on both sides of the Axius River, which on that account is called Amphaxitis; the Edoni and Bisaltae, the rest of the country as far as the Strymon. Of these two peoples the latter are called Bisaltae alone, whereas a part of the Edoni are called Mygdones, a part Edones, and a part Sithones. '''But of all these tribes the Argeadae, as they are called, established themselves as masters, and also the Chalcidians of Euboea; for the Chalcidians of Euboea also came over to the country of the Sithones and jointly peopled about thirty cities in it, although later on the majority of them were ejected and came together into one city, Olynthus; and they were named the Thracian Chalcidians.'''"''

Do you think that after reading the original one comes to the same conclusion as when reading the text you gave? Even this (sic) part (although an erroneous use of the latin word, still its contemporary use), clearly shows that you agree with everything except for the part of any Cretans migrating there... And of course you left out the part about the Argead tribe and that of the Chalkideans. This is why I keep saying you tend to selectively use sources.

By the way further on he also claims "Pella belongs to Lower Macedonia, which the '''Bottiaei''' used to occupy; in early times the treasury of Macedonia was here. Philip enlarged it from a small city, because he was reared in it. It has a headland in what is called Lake Ludias; and it is from this lake that the Ludias River issues, and the lake itself is supplied by an offshoot of the Axius." Strabo, VII, fr 20, the people, whose existence or origin you seem to disagree with, yet use Strabo, adopting his other accounts... Anyways...Strabo, the man who said "Macedonia is of course Greece", gives at least three accounts on what lands different people ascribe to the geographical region of Macedonia in his 7th book and of course he has no trouble stating that there were barbaric tribes living there before the Macedonians, invading into Macedonia etc etc etc. Yet, he clearly differentiates between them. Thus, I agree, as I have already stated that in the past, before the Macedonians, there were other non-Greek tribes living and prospering in these very lands, but the fact remains that these were non-Macedonians and have nothing to do with them, apart from being assimilated or ousted and forced to migrate, so I fail to see any point in this.

As for your next quote, you will have to be more specific and of course always keep in mind that Greek presence in Illyria and THrace is even more evident than that, yet noone said that Illyrians were Greeks, because Greeks lived in parts of Illyria for centuries. You have to understand that trying to link different peoples because they lived close to each other is futile. There is no people in the world without someone on the other side of the border. And borders change. But until some excavation unearths a MACEDONIAN settlement with Thracian inscriptions, a MACEDONIAN settlement of an Illyrian culture, the fact remains, that Macedonians, Illyrians and Thracians were different people.

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|10. Back to Strabo: he records the expansion of Macedonians not as "Macedonians” but as ‘the so-called Argeadae’. The author suggests that the homeland of the Macedones was in the mountainous area of the Olympic mountain and the Heliacmon beneath. Theucydides account (Th. II. 99) describes their expansion into the lands of their neighbours. Both Thucydides and Herodous agree that the expansion of what later became known as the Macedones was associated with a royal house, the Temenidae of Argos in the Peloponesse (clearly Greek). Yet, the lifestyle of the Macedones was one of semi-pastoralism (akin to Vlachs), different to most Greeks. Similalry, they organized themselves into ethne – clusters of small tribes- just like the non-Greek Illyrians. In turn, the Macedonian ethne was sub-composed of Orestae, Molossoi, Perrhaebi, Lycentsae and the ‘Argaeadae’, amongst others. With the possible exception of the Mollosoi, it was only the Argaedae who claimed Greek descent. And it was only the Argaedae who participated in the Olympic games. Herodotus writes that Alexander was accepted not as a Macedonnian, but as a Temenid from Argos.
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There are very few things to argue here. I will just add to your analysis.

''Thucidides II.99 "Assembling in Doberus, they prepared for descending from the heights upon Lower Macedonia, where the dominions of Perdiccas lay; for the Lyncestae, Elimiots, and other tribes more inland, though Macedonians by blood and allies and, dependents of their kindred, still have their own separate governments.The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos. This was effected by the expulsion from Pieria of the Pierians, who afterwards inhabited Phagres and other places under Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon (indeed the country between Pangaeus and the sea is still called the Pierian gulf) of the Bottiaeans, at present neighbors of the Chalcidians, from Bottia, and by the acquisition in Paeonia of a narrow strip along the river Axius extending to Pella and the sea; the district of Mygdonia, between the Axius and the Strymon, being also added by the expulsion of the Edonians. From Eordia also were driven the Eordians, most of whom perished, though a few of them still live round Physca, and the Almopians from Almopia. These Macedonians also conquered places belonging to the other tribes, which are still theirs--Anthemus, Crestonia, Bisaltia, and much of Macedonia proper. The whole is now called Macedonia, and at the time of the invasion of Sitalces, Perdiccas, Alexander's son, was the reigning king."''

So, Thucidides is very cler in that there were other Macedonian tribes, other than the Argeads, with separate governments. Again the talkis of how the Pierians were expelled from their lands, the (Cretan according to Strabo) Bottiaeans. How the Edonians were also expelled, how the Eordeans were expelled and possibly slaughtered (they perished according to Thucidides) as well as the Almopians. All this has to do with your prior arguments about the Macedonians not expelling the beaten from their hearths. So, although the most successful in military affairs Macedonians were the Argeads, there were more Macedonian tribes.

I also agree with your views regarding the lifestyle of the Macedonians. It was very akin to that of the Aetolians, the Cretans of the day and of many other Greek tribes (actually most Greek tribes, who were not considered nabal powers). I urge you to compare the lifestyle of the Macedonians to that of most Greeks and pinpoint their differences. You will easily see that most Greek states were semi pastoral. Even in Attica, most people did not live within the walls of the big cities. Do some research and write me your conclusions. The same applies to what you call "clusters of small tribes", a trend, you seem to imply foreign to Greek ways and akin to Illyrian, a clear mistake. The Athenians were divided in tribes (fylai). So were the Spartans. Both were united under a common rulership but this is not the same in the cases of the Thessalians, the Boeottians, the Acarnanians, the Cretans etc. What you describe as an "Illyrian custom" is in reality the case throughout Greece, Illyria, Thrace and most other ancient peoples including the Latins, the Celts, even the Slavs, the Mongols, the Germans etc etc etc. Then you talk about the differnt Macedonian tribes, of which the Molossoi were not a part, you claim that they might avocate Greek origin, although they definitely did (from Achilles himself) and you end up claiming that the other Macedonians did not claim Greek origin and did not take part in the Olympics... How do you know? Did Herodot claim that the Macedonians migrating north were only the Argreads? Did Thucidides call any non-Argead Macedonian tribe barbarians? How do you know that Cliton, Damasias or Lampos were Argead? Did the tetxs call them Argeads? And as far as Herodot is concerned, he is the greatest advocate of te Greekness of the Macedonians in general, not only that of Alexander I.

It is Herodot who says ''“Although the one nation nowhere yet went out, the Lacedaemonian was very much wandering. For, in the time of King Deucalion, it was settled in the land of Phthia, and in the time of Dorus, the son of Hellen, in the country under Ossa and Olympus, the so-called Histiaean. From the Histiaean, after it had been expelled by the Cadmeians, it was settled in Pindus called Macedonian (Makednon kaleomenon). Thence again it changed its place to the Dryopian land, and from the Dryopian thus it came to Peloponnesus, and was called Doric.”'' (Herodot, Book I, 56.3)> Here of course he is talking about the whole Macedonian ethnos and not just that of the Argeads. He also clearly states : ''“Now these were the nations who composed the Greek fleet. From the Peloponnese, the following- the Lacedaemonians with sixteen ships; the Corinthians with the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians with fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the Troezenians with five; and the Hermionians with three. These were Dorians and Macedonians all of them (except those from Hermione), and had emigrated last from Erineus, Pindus, and Dryopis. The Hermionians were Dryopians, of the race which Hercules and the Malians drove out of the land now called Doris. Such were the Peloponnesian nations.”'' (Herodot, VIII, 43). Here Herodot,clearly makes the connection between the Macedonians and the Peoloponesians. Is there any Greek writer who criticized Herodot for any of these claims? We have countless commentaries and critical texts against so many other Greek writers... Any comments on these claims? No.

You keep jumping to conclusions. Stop trying to support your claims by any means and research the ancients more.

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|11. The Macedonian ruling house spoke Greek and had Greek names, but “to speak Greek was not to be Greek in the 6th and 5th centuries, that was a matter of culture”. Hence until later, the Macedonians were considered non-Greek barbarians in early times. Clearly they had different customs, lifestyle and political organization to the rest of Greece.
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...Again you own opinion stretched to form an argument. You admit that the Argead House had Greek names and spoke Greek, you give some kind of a sourceless quote and you fail to add that they also claimed to be Greek, were acknowledged as being Greek, as was the case with all common Macedonians. Do you know how many thousands of named Macedonian commoners we have? Look up archives on epigraphy, signed artefacts, historical accounts. Your argument is incomplete and misguiding. Then you again clam that the Macedonians were "until later" considered non-Greek barbariasns, but you don't explain what you mean by "until later" or to who called them barbarians. You see there is absolutely NO text from before Demosthenes which even hinted at the Macedonians being barbaric. You just make a statement and present it as a fact, when in reality it is completely unsupported. About their customs, I have already commented, about their political organization I wonder... how did you draw your conclusion? Wishful thinking? Did Sparta have kings? Did Syracuse have kings? Did the Cypriot Greek cities have Kings? Some centuries before, all Greeks had kings. The first recorded according to Eusebius are the Sicyonian kings. He aslo gives us a list of the Athenian the Argives and the Corinthian kings and then those of the Macedonians, of course in a chapter about the Greeks. The thing is that you keep doing the great mistake to group all Greeks and then juxtapose then to the Macedonians. THis is a clear mistake. There are many Greek examples of a diversity in customs much more alien that the distance between Athenians and Macedonians, since I can only assume that when you are talking about Greeks you only mean the Athenians.

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|12. Notwithstanding, the archaeological record is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century. Yet this Hellenization should not be thought of as a mass migration of “Greeks” from farther south, expelling non-Greeks. Rather “Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interactions. Such (sic) interactions were probably responsible for the development of the networks of contacts which facilitated the creation of similar customs”.[3] That is, the spread of a new archaeological culture need not require the implication that anyone actually moved; given that the cohesion to a material culture by certain groups might signify the acquisition of a new, higher level of identity. This is not to deny that there wasn;t some, small-scale migrations, eg of some kind of warrior-pastoralists. Herodotus and others’ semi-legendary accounts of the Argaeaeds might well be true. However, it more accurately suggests the movement of a small, new dominant clan imposing itself on other, obviously already mixed peoples. The disappearance of the previous Illyrian and Thracian cultures does not mean that those people also disappeared, but had merely adopted, or were eclipsed by, the new dominant group of the region which aspired a Hellenic cultural identity.
|}

Again, you fill these pages with unsourced quotes. You keep presenting as self evident what you cannot support with arguments. "It is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century"???? Clear by whom? Are you again talking about the wider region of Macedonia? The region of which less than 25% was inhabited by Macedonians prior to the 5th century BC? The rest of this text is lacking any point or significance, since it is just a personal opinion of somone who might have or might not have presented some arguments before he dared utter it. As for the violent expulsion of the formr inhabitants of these areas, I have already commented on that by bringing forward the words of Thuidides, a source you chose to refer to. Again I have to clearly state that peoples assimilated into a culture count as members of that culture, a fact that you should keep in mind, when talking about how some villages, minor tribes etc might have been assimilated into the Macedonian, Athenian or Theban culture.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|13. Thus it would be wrong to think of the Macedonians as a pre-formed people which existed in the depths of pre-history, an as yet unnoticed Greek people, biding their time. This is why there is no mention of Macedonians before 6th century BC. Clearly their origins are traced to the ascendency of a ruling group, or clan, which asserted authority over new peoples c. 6th century BC. Although the Teminids were Greek, the Macedonians were a mixed peoples.
|}

Thus, according to the literary sources we have (until you can discover new ancient texts disproving the academically acknowledged ones), the Macedonians were a pre-formed people, which existed in the depths of pre-history, as a noticed Greek people who migrated north, expelled various non-Greek tribes and claimed their lands, a branch of which later migrated south and was recorded as the Return of the Heraclidae or the Dorian Invasion, hellenized the Athenians and entered the Peloponnese, where, among others, it formed the Lacedaemonian ethnos. There is no mention of the Macedonians before the 6th century, because there are no texts originating from before the 6th century that have to do with the Greek matters. Yet, all the texts from after the 6th century, are clearly supporting that the Macedonians migrated from central Greece to their new lands long before that. Their origin have nothing to do with the ascension of the Temenids, who formed a new Macedonian kingdom among other Macedonians, who of course are also attested to have come to power long before the 6th century (another peculiar mistake on your side) and well into the 9th century BC.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. M<ine shall be forthcoming . . . [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

OK!

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 21:43, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a brief response, because that is all which time allows me. I shall write more in a few days.

Firstly, I do not refer to you, or any others, as simple, but the synthesis of the article which focuses on whether the Macedonians were Greek or not, which might be a false dichotomy.

Secondly, we cannot take the sources at face value. Although they had a reasonable general knowledge, they were certainly no experts on geography or ethnology. The stories of expulsion of peoples are hyperboles to illustrate the object of their stories more clearly. I still maintain that there was little mass population exchange. Certainly no archaeological evidence exists for this, anywhere in Europe, apart from the initial conlonization, the post-glacial re-colonization, and perhaps during the Neolithic. According to Borza, there is little evidence to convincingly show a Greek migration into the southern Macedonia.

My ‘opinion’ about how ethnic groups formed is actually the published theory of reputable scholars. You are welcome to disagree with them. Equally, I should be able to present it.
I agree with you that I should not compare Macedonians vs ‘other Greeks’, because you’re quite right in that every region had peculiarities. But this agrees with what I say, is that there is a fine line between calling the Ancient Macedonians Greek compared to stating they might have been of proto-Greek stock.
Finally, absorption or assimilation is never a one way process, no matter how ‘advanced’on culture is, or claims to be, compared to be.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 11:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|1. |Firstly, I do not refer to you, or any others, as simple, but the synthesis of the article which focuses on whether the Macedonians were Greek or not, which might be a false dichotomy.
|}

OK! People sometimes copy paste from various aggressive sources and inadvertently bring this aggression into such a discussion. I cannot tell if this was the case here, but it sometimes happens. Anyways, no harm done!

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. Secondly, we cannot take the sources at face value. Although they had a reasonable general knowledge, they were certainly no experts on geography or ethnology.
|}

Why weren't the ancient historians expert on ethnology and geography? The ancient Greeks wee particularly interested and extremely well versed in those and other fields. They traveled, checked their sources, posed self and acknowledged opinions, recorded local customs, languages... Their motus operandi is not different from their counterparts in more modern times. Anyways, they recorded what was considered to be the truth without the DNA testing. Their approach to the ethnology of peoples of their times or their recent past is much more safer to adopt than any modern ethnologist's personal opinion, which anyways is largely based on these people's writings. How can we elaborate on the ancient Athenian culture if we do not give heed to the ancient texts? Draw conclusions from archaeological remains? Archeology can with very much difficulty describe the culture of a people. Most times it is used to fill in gaps and prove (or sometimes disprove) literary evidence.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. The stories of expulsion of peoples are hyperboles to illustrate the object of their stories more clearly. I still maintain that there was little mass population exchange.
|}

Why? Expulsion of peoples is what happened then, what happens now... actually it is much more problematic to propose a model in which aggressive invaders migrate to a place only to peacefully and lovingly live in harmony and cooperation with the people who used to rule over those lands, who used to work the lands, own and govern the various settlements... We do not live in a "global village", we live in countries and all counties, none excepted, have territorial claims on others, because sometime in the past their people were expelled from there (either forcefully or as a process of pressure). In these times, expulsions were even more common, due to the relative small area that each time was conquered. The first Macedonians settled in a very small area (according to our modern concept of country sizes). In a valley of maybe 1.000 sq. kms there simply was no room for them AND another tribe. They of course kept some as slaves or prisoners, but most were driven away to find other lands to settle. Ancient history is filled with such expulsions (although you could dispute them all saying that they are all exaggerations), starting with the expulsion of the Troans from Ilion.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|4.Certainly no archaeological evidence exists for this, anywhere in Europe, apart from the initial conlonization, the post-glacial re-colonization, and perhaps during the Neolithic. According to Borza, there is little evidence to convincingly show a Greek migration into the southern Macedonia.
|}

There is evidence in archaeology that has to do with the expulsion of peoples from their hearths, but then what would be a clear archaeological evidence? Burnt cities? There are many. Extinction of civilizations only to arise in a different place? Such instances exist also. Just think of what you are asking. Archaeology can help but it rarely can prove or disprove such theories or accounts. On the other hand just discrediting any written account from before the 20th century, because we do not agree with its content is a huge step you will find very difficult to make other people accept. As for Borza, although as a source he has been overquoted, you should better give his suggestions and be absolutely certain, that other suggestions of his will not emerge, supporting something different. As you yourself propose, Borza supports that "there is little evidence to convincingly show..". So 1. "little evidence", meaning archaeological evidence, which in this case would more look like the remnants of some thousands footsteps on some road from Dodone into Macedonia, convincingly dated between the 11th and 13th century BC, along with multiple sandal tags clearly stating that it was Macedonians migrating north to expel other peoples... What is the "evidence" of the Indoeuropean Invasion? How about the Dorian Invasion? And 2. "convincingly"... So, Borza does not, according to your words, disprove the literary evidence. He just states that there should be room for further theories. I agree with that. History is of course not static and new evidence might emerge even as to the Slavness or Greekness of the Chinese! But, you see, in order to produce a theory that will replace another theory as the prevalent academic opinion, it should itself present convincing data. Just proposing that these people didn't know their past and we do, that these people were not experts and we, 2,500 years later ,are not convincing arguments. Of course you have to know that even Borza (I could even comment on his nationality, but this would be cheap talk) admits that they possibly were a Greek tribe. He writes

'' “We have seen that the “Makedones” or “highlanders” of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis.”

E.N.Borza “In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon” (revised edition, 1992), page 78''

You see Borza is critical but not dismissive. As much as I disagree with many of his assumptions and deductions, he still navigates within academic credence and seriousness.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|5. My ‘opinion’ about how ethnic groups formed is actually the published theory of reputable scholars. You are welcome to disagree with them. Equally, I should be able to present it.
|}

Of course. But you should always keep in mind that presenting theories does not involve accusing the established theories. It falls on the less supported theories to prove themselves as more credible and probable.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|6. I agree with you that I should not compare Macedonians vs ‘other Greeks’, because you’re quite right in that every region had peculiarities. But this agrees with what I say, is that there is a fine line between calling the Ancient Macedonians Greek compared to stating they might have been of proto-Greek stock.
|}

If you read my words more carefully, you will see that I have not dismissed your argument based on the peculiarities of other Greek states' traditions. "Culture" comprises of more than burial customs. The culture of the ancient Macedonians was indeed Hellenic. Even if you disagree with that, which is your right,your conclusion is again incomplete, since, not being able to categorize a certain tradition as Greek does not mean that you can thus categorize it as non-Greek or proto-Greek or anything else. You should make your efforts based on more data.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|7. Finally, absorption or assimilation is never a one way process, no matter how ‘advanced’on culture is, or claims to be, compared to be.
|}

This is also partially correct. The Greek civilization of course through an assimilation process accepted many alien components, which eventually formed what we call Greek as well as what they called Greek. "Pelasgian Zeus" they called him. Nevertheless, an assimilation process concludes in somebody being assimilated into an alien culture. No matter how much he contributes to his assimilator, the end result cannot be renamed into something new, unless the influence was so great that resulted in a truly different outcome. The Macedonians assimilated whichever named or unnamed tribes, essentially converting them into Hellenes. This is what "hellenization" means. Should historians assume your position, then we would be unable to name, categorize and study any people, any time. Is there any civilization on earth which NEVER adopted anything from anyone? This is how civilizations develop. Acknowledging a minor contribution of an alien culture into an existing one does not bear the strength to revise this civilization's identity. On the other hand, if this contribution radically changes the characteristics of a given civilization, then such steps have been made. This is why, for example, we are talking about a Graecoroman civilization, about an Islamic Spain etc.

Cheers!

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 13:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

:The trouble with your arguements is that your ''fundamental assumpations'' are wrong, thereby your entire arguement is flawed, although your knowledge of the myths and legends is second-to-none.

:Your insistance that the ancient historians new exactly what they were talking about is incorrect. Yes, they ''did'' classify people according to some objective criteria. But these were overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets. We have seen this time & time again, such as the coining of terms ''Keltoi'', ''Germani'' and ''Sclaveni''. Eg archaeological evidence disproves that the people the Greeks name Celts shared any sense of unified identity. If the Greeks were wrong, or perhaps over-siplistic, about these, then why would they be right about the Macedonians. Ancient writers used second hand sources, added their own narrative techniques, and modified their stories to suit their own political stances. Hardly irrefutable evidence, although there were ''some'' grains of truth.

:Secondly, you have maintianed the disproven picture that the migrations of historic times were massive. As if an entire 'nation' just ups and moves down the road and kicks out its neighbours. I have already attempted to clarify for you that this is just not what happened. Only small groups of people moved, eg "martial" sectors, military elite, whatever you want to call them. They went and formed new groups, although they might well have carried their traditions & myths of theold group with them. The idea that an entire Macedonian tribe just packed up and moved north has little evidence to support it. The convincing proof of Macedon's existence starts from their time in lower Macedonia, a place which contained various cultural and linguistic groupings. Although the so-called Illyrian and Thracian material remains eventually end by the 5th century BC, this does not mean that the entire population was displaced. Whan a 'native' population is subdued, they eventually mixed in with the ruling caste, given that the natives were often numerically superior. If they had been killed off, then how would the new rulers collect their tribute, raise an army, and profit from agricultural surplasses ? You need to go and read some up to date books on this, my friend. Beleive me, it will improve the way you understand what a 'migration' is

:Finally, language is not the only marker of ethnicity. Much of the claims made by certain historians is that the Macedonians were Greek becasue they spoke Greek, or a dialect of it. Notwithstanding that even the theory that Macedonians was a Greek language is not universally accepted, Hammond wrote "''the men of the royal house certainly spoke Greek. They ''also'' spoke the language of their people, 'Macedonian', which contained words of early Greek origin but was not intelligible to contemporary Greeks. The Macedonians in general did not consider themselves Greeks, nor were they considered Greeks by their neighbours. ''
:The peoples of Macedonia remained a mixture, evidenced by their contrasting make - up compared to the 'gracile' build of Greeks. It was in Macedonia, and not in Argos, or Thessaly that the Macedonians solidified more compactly into a people.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 02:24, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|1. The trouble with your arguements is that your fundamental assumpations are wrong, thereby your entire arguement is flawed, although your knowledge of the myths and legends is second-to-none.
|}

Thank you for your kind words. As you can perfectly understand, history is a collection of assumptions. The difference between mainstream history and fringe theories is the abundance and acceptance of the existing sources. The structure of the science of history is based on probability rather than direct proof. I could be a creationist and strive to prove that all is futile since it is God that made the Earth some 8.000 years ago and provide proof from the bible on things that belief alone can explain, disproving carbon dating and asserting that our forefathers walked with the dinosaurs. In history we base our assumptions on the written sources, which we intertpret, compare, sometimes stretch in search for logic, looking for proof through archaeology. What would we know of the Romans should we a priori assume that the ancient historians were wrong? What would we know of the Macedonians themselves? You see, your fundamental assumption that the Greek historians did not know what they wrote of, your discrediting them, leaves you with absolutely no arguments about the Macedonians either. If you reject the words of Demosthenes, the passages from Arrian or Curtius Rufus which you interpret as a sign that the Macedonians spoke a non Greek dialect, if you reject the history of the Macedonians as is related by Herodot and agreed on by ALL ancient sources (since all ancient writers did agree as to the identity of the Argeads by simply calling them Temenids and Argeads, by constantly repeating and not refuting that Alexander's progenitors were indeed Hercules and Achilles, since an Aeacid), then you have nothing else but archaeology. And this is when things get even tougher, because all archaeological evidence that can be attributed to the Macedonian people is purely Greek in appearance and essence. Archaeology alone, literary sources aside, shows that there was a people which called itself Macedonian in Greek and had a distinctly Greek civilization. The assumption certain individuals make that this happens only because the Macedonians were hellenized sometime before the 5th century cannot stand on archaeology alone, since there is no evidence of the same people having a different culture. The whole structure of a non-Greek Macedonian theory is based on few, albeit existent, literary sources and disproving them creates a bigger problem to you than to Greeks. For example, if you discredit the tale about Alexander I and how other athletes disputed his Greekness, then you are only left with the certainty that Macedonians did indeed take part in the Olympics, not being able to even make assumptions as to when they started, whether only royalties took part and other theories that are used to support your theory.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. Your insistence that the ancient historians new exactly what they were talking about is incorrect. Yes, they did classify people according to some objective criteria. But these were overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets.
|}

I do not suggest that the ancients "knew exactly what they were talking about", this I cannot say even about contemporary sources, since there are so many reasons why someone might be mistaken, but in the course of 800 years, from the 6-7th century BC to the 2-3rd century AD, they have left us with an amazing collection of books, a truly astounding wealth in knowledge that has helped us shed light into history. How do we know of the Roman history if not by the same authors? How do we know of Carthage? of the Celtiberians? of Vercingetorix and Boudicca? The same people you are trying to disprove wrote about Cyrus the Great, Artaxerxes, Brennos, king Minos...History is based on them. They were living at times mostly near to what they were describing. Of course the chance that they are right is larger than any assumption I could make. And this is why their word would be heard and more easily accepted than a theory I might devise about how they said something but in reality meant something else. Or how I know that they were mistaken, basing ny arguments not on archaeology, but on my own personal, subjective logic. Noone admits everything in literary sources. It is consensus that we are trying to locate. Demosthenes did write, according to the evidence we have from medieval manuscripts of course, that Philip was a barbarian, but we are critical, since his opinion lacks acceptance by millions of pages of acknowledged Roman and Greek text. Another account talks of Alexander having horns, another of ghosts fighting along with the Greeks at Plataea, another of Gods smiting the Gauls of Brennus in Greece with lightning and earthquakes. There is a process in admitting literary evidence as proof and even there, there is room for other opinions. But these opinions have to be based on some form of evidence, be it archaeological or historical. Just wishful thinking and gross generalizations cannot stand acceptance. Calling their historical heritage “overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets” truly does not give them the credit they deserve. Do you think that modern historians or anthropologists work on a more scientific basis than these people did? The Greek, as well as the Roman, civilization was a culture with a passion to record and criticize. If it weren’t for them, we would stand in the dark concerning most matters on ancient history. To call the likes of Aristotle, Pythagoras, Archemides, Polybius, Strabo, Plato and so many others, overzealous pseudoscientists, whose words we should not study, since they bare no weight, is really a new historical approach that no historian advocates no matter how extreme his opinions might be. On the contrary, most historians who propose fringe theories BASE them on some obscure passage, new translation or interpretation, as does everybody who claims that the Macedonians were indeed no Greek tribe.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. We have seen this time & time again, such as the coining of terms Keltoi, Germani and Sclaveni. Eg archaeological evidence disproves that the people the Greeks name Celts shared any sense of unified identity. If the Greeks were wrong, or perhaps over-siplistic, about these, then why would they be right about the Macedonians. Ancient writers used second hand sources, added their own narrative techniques, and modified their stories to suit their own political stances. Hardly irrefutable evidence, although there were some grains of truth.
|}

What you are saying about the Keltoi has nothing to do with the issue of the Macedonians. First of all, you should study those writings from the writers’ perspective, not your own, or my own for that matter. Greeks categorized different people according to their understanding, but the fact that all Keltoi should be relative tribes is nothing they claimed. For example, the term Skythes was used for ALL peoples residing over Istros to the east, regardless of possible tribal or ethnic differences. The same methodology they employed with the term Keltoi, Germanoi, even with the Slavs. When they had a concrete opinion on the culture, mythology, language etc of a nation they recorded it, but they also wrote about nations they did not know much, again, clearly making that visible. There are lots of commentaries of Greek geographers criticizing the opinions and statements of their predecessors. They brought on new data, new knowledge, they traveled and studied different cultures. Their historical and anthropological analysis had nothing to envy from modern methodologies. You are mistaken if you think that they were rigid in their opinions, that they didn’t look into things with a critical eye. They just never disputed (in the thousands of surviving texts) the opinions of Herodot, the Temenid legend and generally the Greekness of the Macedonians. Maybe such texts will be discovered in the future. But until then, the discrediting theories are subjected to strong criticism, because they are based on hints such as “We know that Herodot had traveled to Thasos. So, it is very possible that he might have crossed over to Thrace, from there pass through Macedonia and there having been subject to pressure from Alexander to write about the Greekness of himself and the rest of the Macedonians". No matter how strange you find what I wrote right now, this is ACTUALLY the main argument of Badian and Borza on why we should discredit Herodot... The fact that Herodot was not in the position to influence Greek matters, the fact that NO other Greek, Greco-Roman or otherwise relevant historian EVER (always according to our knowledge) criticized his proposed genesis of the Macedonian kingdom, the fact that ALL sources refer to Alexander, Philip and all other Temenids, as Argeads or Temenids, clearly referring to their progenitors is what makes such claims sound far fetched, this is why this theory is not widely accepted. Arrian has Alexander talk to his Macedonians about THEIR progenitor (not his), Heracles. These are not Herodot’s words, yet he, as do ALL other Greco-Roman historians clearly accepts the same theories as to the genesis of the Macedonians. Again, it is your and everyone’s right to support any theories concerning any historical event. There are Greeks who support that Mohammed was a Byzantine spy, based on some texts, which imply Byzantine infiltration in 6th century Arabia. There are Greeks who support that the Romans were in reality a Greek tribe, because it is proposed by the Romans themselves in certain texts as ONE of their possible origins. What is different as to the case of the Macedonians is that there is NO other proposed theory on their emergence.
Now, as to the possibility of having it all wrong with the Macedonians is existent, albeit minimal for many reasons. First of all, they were their neighbors, so their knowledge of them was extensive. Secondly, there was never any dispute on the words of Herodot, nor on those of Hesiod or others who wrote about the origins of the Macedonians. Thirdly, the Macedonians themselves were fierce advocates of their Greekness (fierce here denoting their persistence in being included in the Greek world, culturally, linguistically etc. If they were not Greek in the 8th or 10th century BC, they truly became Greeks by choice in the later centuries, a fact even Badian, a proponent of the barbarism of the Macedonians, does NOT refute.) You see, all supporters of the non-Greekness of the Macedonians ALWAYS strive to find arguments from BEFORE the 5th century!!!! They do not dare propose that judging from evidence after that, one can have even the slightest of possibilities that the Macedonians were not Greeks. And of course you should keep in mind, that Borza does not advocate that the Macedonians were not Greeks. He is critical, but NOT dismissive, since he clearly explains that this IS the most possible theory, yet insist that other theories can also be proposed.

You also talk about the ancients using second hand sources... well, so do most of us scholars today! Yet, if you follow the methodologies of the ancients, you will soon find out that they were obsessed with primary sources and would often criticize writers for not having witnessed themselves some events or traveled to certain places. Herodot, Arrian, Xenophon, Strabo... these people were extensively traveled. they saw most things they described with their own eyes. Don’t ever assume that the ancients had a limited knowledge of the Macedonian kingdom. They had a limited knowledge on India, on Celtiberians, on Arabs but they were perfectly acquainted with anything Macedonian. Doesn’t it strike you as a little nit odd, how most writers wrote in the Hellenistic and Roman era and yet NOT ONE called the Macedonian tyrants of Greece “barbarians”? That NOT ONE ever disputed the “fairy tales” about their “self proclaimed Greekness”, about their “unsubstantiated claims” that they had anything to do with purely Greek heroes of the caliber of Achilles and Hercules? The Macedonians were not always lenient. In the times of Polybius, a statesman of the Achaean Confederacy on top of being an important historian, the Macedonians had just lost their hold over Greece... Greece was at last free!!!! Why did he, a leader of Achaeans, NEVER accuse the Macedonians of non-Greekness among all other accusations he made against Philip V or Perseus? He clearly saw Macedonians as Greeks, although he was among the tyrannized, among those freed by the Roman gladius... Dismissing his testimony, because “he must have an agenda we don’t know about” is of course your choice, but this methodology, as already explained, will leave you with NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL about any ancient matter. And archaeology is much more difficult to be used (interpreted, distorted, manipulated, explained etc etc etc) to reach any such conclusion.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|4. Secondly, you have maintianed the disproven picture that the migrations of historic times were massive. As if an entire 'nation' just ups and moves down the road and kicks out its neighbours. I have already attempted to clarify for you that this is just not what happened.
|}

You are claiming that “massive” migrations are a “disproved” fact. Why? Who says so? Don't the numerous examples from the Medieval times teach us that they have indeed been a fact in the world's history? What is the story of the Visigoths? the Ostrogoths? the Slav? The Viking? What is the story of the Greek colonies? the Roman migration to Lation? the colonization of Carthago? the Hebrew migration to Palestine, the Brygian migration to Asia Minor? And of course, how do you define “massive”? Over 10.000 people? 100.000? And when you are talking about a massive Macedonian invasion, of course you have to understand that we are talking about a really small migration in numbers. We have evidence and testimonies to migrations and invasions of hundreds of thousands, while the Macedonians, given the limited space they were assumed to have lived on, were much fewer in numbers. The Macedonians of prehistory are a small tribe, a mediocre one when compared to its neighbors. If you just study a little bit of (less documented) medieval history, you will become more acquainted with the process of migratory invasions and displacement of peoples. You claim you were displaced from Aegean Macedonia, Greeks claim they were displaced from Constantinople and Smyrna, the Cypriots claim they were displaced and their lands assumed by Turks from Anatolia, the Palestinians claim they were displaced, so do the native Americans from the massive migration of the Europeans, etc. The world's history is full of such events you choose to ignore or just set aside. We can discuss the process of the Macedonian migration, although I think that you will stick to your hypothesis that they indeed shook hands of friendship with the local owners of pastures and fields, towns and orchards and all together formed a great and prosperous civilization, something unheard of in history. No one talks about total displacements. If you read my points carefully, you will see that I am talking about a forceful invasion followed by forceful and/or peaceful assimilation, which in its own right is a different thing, allowing for "alien" DNA to permeate a given civilization, yet, leaving it relatively untouched in historical terms.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|5. Only small groups of people moved, eg "martial" sectors, military elite, whatever you want to call them. They went and formed new groups, although they might well have carried their traditions & myths of theold group with them. The idea that an entire Macedonian tribe just packed up and moved north has little evidence to support it.
|}

Now, this... I can’t make much sense of... What you propose is unheard of! When did you ever read that any “military elite” migrated away from their lands, where they were lords, to find a new people which would then “adopt” them? What you are proposing roughly resembles the colonization process that took place in ancient and medieval times, but ALWAYS, these colonies were populated by commoners of the same race, since the soldiers, the craftsmen, the traders, of course also brought along their families... Even the Macedonians themselves populated their cities in the east with Greeks, they gave incentives to attract Greek populations over to their territories (you should read about the kleirouchies), so that they can base their rule on a solid basis of a kindred ruling caste. NEVER in history, was a conquering ruling class assimilate the conquered population, unless this class really was followed by masses of kindred commoners, as seems that you suggest regarding the Macedonians. If I understand you well, you are proposing that back in prehistory there might have been some Macedonian warlord, who invaded the enemy, conquered him and then established a ruling class, which for some reason was completely cut away from its homeland, although their homeland was just a day’s march to the south. Instead of incorporating this small, neighboring land to their homeland, instead of driving the owners of those fertile valleys away and give the land to his soldiers and their families, this warlord chose to send the men back on the mountains and rule over an alien people with a force of his men, who followed him without their families. At the same time, he might or might not have ruled over his former lands but for some reason, these lands were lost to him, his people disappeared and for some reason, maybe because he was a beloved and wise conqueror, his new people, not only did not slit his throat, not only did not revolt, but they also were assimilated by him... It just doesn’t work this way... When a small tribe conquered a better land, they just assumed the former residents farmsteads, houses, towns, ports, pastures, they exploited the conquered population as workers in mines and constructions, they ransomed them, they sold them for slaves to make an extra income. It is not me that I have to procure some kind of proof here... I have accepted history on my side. I have the ancient texts relating the story as I support it. I have countless historical paradigms supporting my views. It is you, who should bring forward evidence to support your theory. Just describing these theories as “new” or “modern” bears no weight, unless you can also bring evidence and of course present the extent of its support. As for evidence of a Macedonian migration, again it is up to you to bring evidence that it did not happen, not the opposite way around. There is much to suggest that migrations happened in the region, much to suggest that there was forceful expulsion and conquest, yet no videotape has yet been found to conclusively prove that sometime in prehistory, a people called Macedonians invaded the area. Can any archaeological find ALONE prove to us that Genghis Khan ever invaded Europe? Any archaeological finding that can conclusively prove that the Triballi were not indeed the ancestors of the Athenians? You are disregarding concrete archaeological evidence that the Macedonians had a purely Greek culture, yet you demand to be shown concrete archaeological evidence that a historically minor migration of a tribe took place sometime in the unrecorded prehistory. Well... we have evidence of a number of forceful events, maybe one of those has to do with the Macedonians. What is most important is the archaeological continuance of Macedonian presence well into an era when they themselves could document their Greek culture. What can be proven through archaeology is that nobody forced the Macedonians to be Greeks. They were Greeks in a time when most that had to do with the Greek culture did not yet exist! They were a clear part of the genesis of what we call Hellenic Civilization and they were the major medium, through which it spread to the world.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|6. The convincing proof of Macedon's existence starts from their time in lower Macedonia, a place which contained various cultural and linguistic groupings. Although the so-called Illyrian and Thracian material remains eventually end by the 5th century BC, this does not mean that the entire population was displaced. Whan a 'native' population is subdued, they eventually mixed in with the ruling caste, given that the natives were often numerically superior. If they had been killed off, then how would the new rulers collect their tribute, raise an army, and profit from agricultural surplasses ? You need to go and read some up to date books on this, my friend. Beleive me, it will improve the way you understand what a 'migration' is
|}

What does anything of that have to do with the Macedonians? What if there were other tongues spoken in Lower Macedonia? First of all, let me use your own arguments... How do you know that those people did not all talk Greek? How do you know that the Illyrians did not talk in Greek? Can it be because ANCIENT GREEKS SAID SO? So was the case with the Greek states of Ionia, of Magna Graecia, of Euxinus Pontus, of Marmarica, Gaul and Iberia... So? What does the total displacement of any populations have to do with the Macedonians? They were no multiethnic state... they didn’t even use to mix with Macedonians from other Macedonian states (they did, but it was not commonplace)! If some peoples or remnants thereof were assimilated into their civilization, as did happen in ALL ancient civilizations (again, Themistocles’ and Demosthenes' mothers were barbarians, did that make them less Greek, or does that give the right to the Ukrainians to demand Athenian history?), so what? Or do you suggest that from now on we should stop using ANY ETHNIC DETERMINATION, even regarding modern nations, just because no nation is pure? Should we stop differentiating between cultures too? What you are suggesting is that there were NO MACEDONIANS, and as such no one has the right to claim the history or descendance of a people that never existed as a people. You describe them as self deluded people whose testimonies we should not take seriously, whose self determination we should reject, just because they were not genetically pure... This is also the case with Romans, Goths, Persians, all Greeks, Carthaginians, Celtiberians, Gauls, Mongols, Indians, Chinese... Should we just abandon all onomatology? Should we claim that all people can claim any history and descendance, since we either descend from Adam or from Lucy? What you are supporting cannot stand and has nothing to do with any migratory theories, it has just to do with an unwillingness to accept that regardless of purity, people in the past had an ethnic consciousness, a history, a language, a culture. As for studying "new" bibliography, I am always open, but you (again) have provided none. So, point me to the bibliography which links any migratory theories to the deprivation of the right to have certain unique identity and I promise you that I will look into it. You see, even if you understand what a “migration” is, you seem to fail to understand the process of assimilation and identity development. Can you name me ONE people who did not conquer other peoples in its entire history? To insist that this is a reason, why we should refute any identity this people developed in its history, is a really novel and interesting way to perceive history.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|7. Finally, language is not the only marker of ethnicity. Much of the claims made by certain historians is that the Macedonians were Greek becasue they spoke Greek, or a dialect of it. Notwithstanding that even the theory that Macedonians was a Greek language is not universally accepted, Hammond wrote "the men of the royal house certainly spoke Greek. They also spoke the language of their people, 'Macedonian', which contained words of early Greek origin but was not intelligible to contemporary Greeks. The Macedonians in general did not consider themselves Greeks, nor were they considered Greeks by their neighbours.
|}

Of course not! Although it is a huge factor.... Actually most claims that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe are based on anything BUT that! On the other hand, this is the ONLY argument of those who insist that the Macedonians were not Greeks! The whole argumentation of the deniers of the Greekness of the Macedonians is based on the possibility (however distant, as its proponents themselves admit) that the Macedonians did not speak Greek before the 6th century BC! Their culture is completely Greek! Their religion, their mythology, their art, their military institutions (do you know they had hoplites before Philip introduced the sarissa?), their perception of the world, their feelings of kinship towards the other Greeks in relation to the rest of the "barbarian" world! As I have told you, details in cultural elements, such as wedding or burial customs always include peculiarities, but their culture as a whole is classified as purely Greek. And of course, you should know better than to quote Hammond, who explicitly considers the Macedonians Greek. Maybe you should read more of his books, especially the latest ones...

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|8. The peoples of Macedonia remained a mixture, evidenced by their contrasting make - up compared to the 'gracile' build of Greeks. It was in Macedonia, and not in Argos, or Thessaly that the Macedonians solidified more compactly into a people.
|}

What mixture? What contrasting make-up? Where did you find any evidence to that? Did you find ANY ancient who claimed that the Macedonian culture was "multiethnic"? Actually the cities of Athens, Corinth, Syracuse and Hallicarnassus were much more multiethnic than any Macedonian city. It does not matter where the Macedonians solidified as a people... what matters is that they boasted a Hellenic identity, a fact which cannot be refuted, however you mask it behind arguments about “political agendas”, “cultural admiration”, “unscholarly misquotes” or “lies”! Seriously now.... apart from thinking it possible yourself, where did you come across any mentioning of a multicultural Macedonia, where every ethnicity was free to express its identity? Don't mix up current situation in FYROM with ancient Macedonia... there were no "Illyrian Macedonians", “Thracian Macedonians" or “Greek Macedonians” cohabiting Pella in perfect harmony with the “ethnic Macedonians”...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 18:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not proposing that literary sources are useless, merely that we should not interpret them at face-value. What you say is correct, that the evidence suggests that the Macedonians Royal house aspired a Greek identity, whether this was due to actual lineage, a political ploy or to prove their sophistication. What I am suggesting that needs to be improved in the article is the fact that at the moment it reads like a "Greek or not" debate. I propose that that the issue is more complex than that. The 'migration' spoken of by ancient historians could be an illustrative, yet simplified, account of how hellenic culture spread to Macedonia, and spawned the people of macedonia. The tale of Argos, etc, is illustrative. Just like that tale of Goths migrating from Gotium to Scythia. It is not my imagination, nor a 'fringe thoery' . Although I must admit that the quotes i am about to give are not specific to macedonians, they illustrate the general concensus of ''current'' archaeologists, linguists and pre-historians about the spread of peoples.

''Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interaction, where contact between neighbouring and plitically independent communities proved influential for the devevlopment of customs and beliefs". Renfrew . ''Archaeology and Language''.

About Macedonians speaking Greek. ''Different ethnic groups can speak the same langauge''. Pg 216

"there was no need to explain culture change exclusively in terms of migration and population replacement"<ref> From Roman Provinces to Medieval Kingdoms. Archaeologists and Migrations. Pg 264</ref>. "Ethnic spreads can involve either the spread of a language to speakers of other languages or the spread of a population. '''Massive population spread or demographic replacement has probably been a rarity in human history'''"

The other question which remains is did the rest of Macedonia see itself as Hellenistic. In all probabilty, we cannot answer this question because we have little to no evidence. You doubt that the Macedonians were multi-ethnic. Ok. But the identity which the leading elite portrays does not equal that of the common peoples. This does not mean that people lived in a utopian fairy land, there were subject, slaves and rulers. But to state that a Greek people called Macedonians moved and planted themselves in lower Macedonia, as you might see, does not fit in with todays thinking about ethnogenesis.

Lastly, what was "Greek" in the 5th century BC? Greece began in the 19th century. Acribing to membership in the Greek world need not have implied being an ethnic Greek, but to have been part of the civilized world, not a ''barbarian''. Just like becoming a Christian state, or people, allowed access to the sophisticated diplomatic community of medieval Europe. To call the Macedonians Greek risks anacrhonism. The term "Greek", by its modern meaning, is a different thing to having part of the Hellenistic civilisation of Classical times. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

== This entry is very problematic - Ancient Macedonians were ethnically much closer to Illyrians ==

I have just read the first paragraph (and only the first) of this entry on Ancient Macedonians and I have found couple of mistakes.

Let me quote from it "Whether they were of ultimately Greek origin themselves or were later Hellenized continues to be debated by some scholars, but most of them advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin."

This is not true - Ancient Macedonians were ethnically much closer to Illyrians - see some work of czech historian Antonín Bartoněk (for example his book - Odysseové na mořích historie - where it explicitly states this)

And other problematic part for encyclopedic entry is the following "..and Macedonians competed in the ancient Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only men of Greek origin were allowed to participate."

That is demagoguery, maybe even borderline propaganda. Macedonians were not allowed to compete on Olympic Games until Philip II of Macedon subdued ancient Greeks/Hellenes and enforced this privilege for Macedonians. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/90.178.190.222|90.178.190.222]] ([[User talk:90.178.190.222|talk]]) 11:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 

:Your comment doesnt make sense. The quote you provided refers to the debate between the vast majority of scholars and you stick to the perception of a single one. Honestly this Czech historian is not even noteworthy and certainly not one of the leading authorities among scholars in relation to ancient Macedonian history. There is no ancient literary account verifying your assumption "ethnically much closer to Illyrians". If anything ancient sources always described them as two distinct, hostile people. Since there were Macedonians who participated in Olympics prior to Philip's era obviously your accusations about "demagoguery" and "borderline propaganda" are rather clumsy. [[User:Johnaldinho|Johnaldinho]] ([[User talk:Johnaldinho|talk]]) 19:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

So you have counted opinions of all scholars dealing with this issue, and you are absolutely 100% positive that majority consensus is that Macedonians were of Greek origin? That is nonsense my friend. I have no stack in this as I am czech, but I see that you are greek so it may be difficult for you to look objectively on this issue. BTW: that author surely is worthy of mentioning, he is quite authority on this field - he is classical philologist - So he has good insight into this - in that book he is dealing also with differences in languages used by Ancient Macedonians and their Greek neighbors (BTW: do you know what was the macedonian form of the name of Philip II of Macedon? (Hint: no it surely wasnt Phillippos - and in this you can find one of the many Macedonian-Illyrian connection). Among other universities Bartonek lectured even on Cambridge. (Albeit his main expertise is Mykenology - I will give you that)

About Macedonians who participated in Olympics prior to Philip's era - being intellectually disshonest again? Let me ask you this way - were regular Macedonians allowed to compete on Olympics, before Phillip's conquest? No they were not. There might have been some exceptions, like is the case with some Thracians. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/90.178.190.222|90.178.190.222]] ([[User talk:90.178.190.222|talk]]) 12:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC) 

First of all, you should make an account. Discussing with IPs is always a little bit awkward and sometimes used by existed users to push their opinions. Then you can search the already lengthy articles that address these issues in detail. Going again and again over the same discussions is a little bit tiresome. Yet, if you cannot find an answer regarding your objections, I will compile you one. Lastly, look for more sources, since trying to persuade a schooled crowd of the prominence of a fringe theory is impossible. First you have to be able to prove that what you are advocating is no fringe theory but a widely accepted alternative. Last, but no least, be ready to support your claims. An argument such as "regular Macedonians were not allowed to compete on Olympics before Phillip's conquest" will be questioned and you will have to provide for. So, find one ancient source which proposes that and you may have a case. Present a modern historian who proposes that and you have an easilly disputed theory. Anyways.. if you want to make a case, compile your sources, look in our prior discussions for answer and then we can get down to it. By the way... since you are a Czech, why are your only 3 contributions in this discussion page? (no disrespect meant, only to show you how easy it is for your motives to be questioned) [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 14:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

== Olympic Games ==

I am removing the statement that only Greeks were allowed to compete in the Olympic games because many competetors were NON-Greeks, including Romans, Macedonians, Thracians, and Armenians:
* Tiberius (steerer of a four-horse chariot)[15]
* Nero (steerer of a ten-horse chariot)
* Varastades, Prince and future King of Armenia, (last known Ancient Olympic victor (boxing) during the 291st Olympic Games in the fourth century.
[[User:Mactruth|Mactruth]] ([[User talk:Mactruth|talk]]) 05:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

:That was much much later, after the Roman conquest (146 BC). Originally, only Greeks were allowed to compete. The sources also tell us that the kings of Macedon were allowed to compete as far back as the 5th century BC. What are you trying to do here? Do you think it's not obvious? --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 06:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Precedence and weasel words==

As the article is about '''Ancient''' Macedonians and modern research is based on '''ancient''' material, why "modern discussions" section takes precedence over the original ancient sources? Also, as per [[WP:AWW]], the use of "some people say" is discouraged. The bits about "some scholars" debating their identity, need work. They give the wrong impression. '''Most''' scholars (practically all of them) do not debate on this. In addition, theories of people like Eugene Borza have been disproved (many works by him, are dated '''before''' [[Manolis Andronikos|Andronikos]]' discovery of Philip II's tomb) and are not accepted by the vast majority of the scientific community. He is not even a serious scholar, by any standards ([http://scholar.google.gr/scholar?as_q=&num=20&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=Eugene+Borza&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=some&as_subj=soc&hl=en&lr=&safe=off example]) and he retired. I'll give some time to debate on this and then we'll decide on how to proceed with '''needful''' changes. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 22:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
:Adding [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza this] bit by Borza, since his statements or "statements" are conflicting. '''The "highlanders" or "Makedones" of the mountainous regions of western Macedonia are derived from northwest Greek stock [...] the origin of the Macedonians lies in the pool of proto-Greek speakers [...]'''. Again, I'm not editing anything right now; I'll wait for others to comment on this.[[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 01:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
::Just a friendly reminder. This will be edited soon. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 01:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Your summary of Borza, as so often, confused the concepts of "being Greek" and "being of (proto-)Greek stock". Read more closely: only for a nationalist ethnic essentialist would these two concepts mean the same thing. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:Just a friendly reminder: you've been told repeatedly to watch your language and others above me take notes. You certainly have a thing going on, with people not in agreement with your POV. Wikipedia is not anyone's personal playground. FYI, Borza's hypotheses before and after Andronikos' discoveries, are conflicting and in due time, this is going to be demonstrated here, with academic references. As for the statement, try not to distort everything by misquoting, in order to prove your POV. "Greek stock" is about the origins of the people. "Proto-Greek speakers" is a language pool with people from different stock (that were eventually hellenized). To illustrate this, several Africans belong in the french language pool, but they're not French. Stock is the walking, language is the talking. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:Let's not play word games. You [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAncient_Macedonians&diff=287266270&oldid=287234123 changed] "do" with "would", after my response. Rephrasing changes everything. If this was a honest mistake from your side, I accept it. Nevertheless, I hope we clarified things about stock and language, walking and talking :) [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 15:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:: Well, call it a clarification. I don't know if you think in essentialist terms (many people do, without being aware of it); if you don't, then you probably just weren't reading the Borza passage very carefully. Apart from that, no, I don't think we have clarified the issue; you apparently still don't understand the point. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 15:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Interesting. Well, I'll assume good faith. But you're right, we haven't clarified the issue as you don't seem to understand the humongous difference between stock and language.[[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 16:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

::::Yaoza, yaoza '''FPatS''' (can I call you Fpats for short?), how many times '''did''' SQRT...etc summarise Borza? Was it really ''''so''' often'? And is he really a nationalist ethnic essentialis? Otherwise, you are batting on a sticky wicket dear chap, your above comment makes <s>little</s> no sense. And SQRT...etc, I am sure changing 'do' with 'would' was just a friedly geasture, nah, probably not :-( [[User:Politis|Politis]] ([[User talk:Politis|talk]]) 16:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT5P1D2... your personal opinion doesn't matter, so don't waste space writing it. The fact that modern Balkanologists frequently use him as a source would in any case discredit your opinion [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 14:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
:I took the liberty to correct my nickname. I hope you don't mind. As for the rest: indulge us. [http://scholar.google.gr/scholar?as_q=eugene+borza&num=20&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=1993&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=some&as_subj=soc&hl=en&lr=&safe=off Here] are Google Scholar's results after 1993 (the official recognition of the state with the provisional name FYROM). The results include him as an author, as well as citations. There are 65 results, some of them irrelevant. I don't see any huge ''modern'' following. If you want more analysis, use [http://www.thomsonreuters.com/products_services/scientific/Arts_Humanities_Citation_Index AHCI] and surprise yourself about Borza's impact. He's nothing more than a fringe historian. That's not what I think, but what the academic community thinks. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 18:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT5P1D2... Eugene Borza is not "fringe", as much as you would like him to be. The new book, just out... "Macedonian Legacies: Studies in Ancient Macedonian History and Culture in Honor of Eugene N. Borza" might be a clue for you. Included are articles by Anson, Carney, Burstien, and Paglia amongst others. It behooves you to counter his views rather dismiss him as fringe, because he does not bolster your POV. My university professors, as well as most other courses that touch on ancient Macedon would be surprised to hear he is considered fringe. Thank you. Gingervlad--[[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 17:08, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

:well put. Not to mention that SQRT5P1D2 based his claim on a "Google search". Doesn't even warrant discussion [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
::Hello and sorry for not responding earlier, as I was abroad. The "fringe" is what the academic community now thinks. His influence is marginal and his controversial, conflicting newer claims (surprisingly, there is a shifting pattern during the last two decades, despite evidence to the contrary) are repeatedly disproved. Regarding the "Google" thing, Google '''Scholar''' is public. If someone wants more information and has access, the Arts and Humanities Citiation Index is [http://www.thomsonreuters.com/products_services/scientific/Arts_Humanities_Citation_Index here].
::About points of view and arguing, as I'm involved in the Macedonia 2 arbitration case, I restricted myself from editing Macedonia-related articles. As this case enters the resolution phase, you can expect much more involvement from my part. Some drafts are already being made, with numerous past and present academic references. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT, again it is you that needs to show that Borza is considered fringe by those who work and study in his field of expertise. Please demonstrate where his influence is marginal and by whom? I did post on the Borza talk page with examples showing that he IS widely regarded. What evidence has been repeatedly disproved and by whom? What are the controversial new claims? Are you talking about the dating of Tomb II? Where has that been disproved? If you are going to say he is marginal and controversial (in the international community) it is on you to show this. Simply saying it does not make it so. And for comparison, Hammond could have the same thing said about him...but I never would. His contributions have been monumental. Where he is incorrect in his assessments, or there is disagreement..it doesn't require stating that he's "fringe". The same respect should be given to Borza. And as I pointed out, he is getting it in the form of the festschrift.

It is extremely unfortunate for him that some on the hypernationalist competing Macedonia websites (who can tell them apart doing a web search...until clicking them, one finds that they fall on either side of the ridiculous situation) have appropriated his work and misused it..it put a target on his back for the other side of the ridiculous situation to go after. Sadly I have watched this for a number of years. And I see it here.

AS I said, the academic community I know certainly does NOT consider Borza fringe. A google search does not show any "fringe" tendencies. Rather, if you want him dismissed as "fringe"..you need to show actual members of the academic community calling him so. I realise that you are in the midst of the arbtiration. But when it is over, you really must "show your work". This has pulled me out of long and dispirited lurking mode. gingervlad. [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 14:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:Hello Gingervlad. Of course, when the case is over and we have established guidelines, I'll focus on the articles. For now, just to keep you interested in Borza and his newer claims, you can read these [http://macedonia-evidence.org/identity.html] [http://macedonia-evidence.org/macedonian-tongue.html]. Spicing it up a bit, [http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html here's] a recent list with more than 200 scholars, speaking with one voice. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 23:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Borza is not fringe, yet Borza does admit that the predominant theory about the origin of the ancient Macedonians is that they were of Greek stock. He just proposes that other theories (as always history is naught but a collection of educated theories) cannot be easily eliminated, as do we here in Wikipedia. Nevertheless, probability is the key point here, since as far as theories (better supported than the one that has the Macedonians not speaking Greek before the 5th century BC) are concerned the Romans were also of Greek stock and the Athenians were hellenized barbarians (since there is yet another controversy as to whether the Pelasgians were of Greek stock or not). Other theories have a Cretan clan having migrated to Macedonia even before the Macedonians, the Thracians being of proto-Greek stock (although clearly described in the ancient texts as barbarians), the Illyrians having been completely eliminated by late antiquity, Egyptian and Phoenician migrations taking place in prehistoric Greece, the Greek alphabet being derived from the Phoenician one, the Phoenician alphabet being derived from the Greek one, the civilization of Knossos being non-Greek, the civilization of Knossos being definitely Greek, etc etc etc etc... Please, stop using Borza as a source which provides a definite conclusion, for you all know that he does not, so this whole conversation is pointless. Borza stands for none of the above POVs. His theories are considered possible, yet the probability of the Macedonians not being of Greek stock low, albeit existent... [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 17:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:Allow me a correction: his ''newer'' theories, are not considered possible, especially in the light of more recent archaeological findings. Stating the greekness of ancient Macedonians in his older works, is stating the obvious. For a preview, I suggested these [http://macedonia-evidence.org/identity.html] [http://macedonia-evidence.org/macedonian-tongue.html] in my above comment. I understand that he was a favorite of the Slavic side, until they read [http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Il3C_PAhgz0/SW3LzMFk9mI/AAAAAAAAAmQ/RJyicXqgV3E/s400/borza3.jpg this]. Some are still blissfully unaware of it and they keep mentioning him as a credible source. They are also unaware of Alexander's victory in Granicus ("Alexander, the son of Philip and the Greeks..."), which ends every discussion. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 23:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

:SQRT..what newer theories..and how are they considered not possible? As for dragging the modern situation into a talk page about history millennia old..this is precisely what shouldn't be done. It is neither here nor there in regards to this. If one of your counterparts from "the other side" were to post something in the same vein, I would call them on it as well. Again, though, I ask you to actually name the "newer" theories before you dismiss them and the new discoveries that render whatever the newer theories are. As for the Macedonia-evidence site, sadly, once again, a specific agenda driven site rehashing the same tired argument about the MODERN situation showing us that, yes, the modern nation of Macedonia is doing something (and perhaps that link and your discussion about modern Slavs belongs in the article about the modern nation of Macedonia...why is that here on the talk page of "Ancient Macedonians"? The letter from the scholars is great and the articles from Hatzopoulos from 1999 and 2002 are nice to read again, but what does that have to do with information for 2500 =/- years ago? Seriously..., in regards to this article, who cares! Your comment certainly renders your neutrality moot.

:: (edited to fix paragraph) I've no horse in that race. I'm not a Slav. Nor a Greek. Just someone who finds the ancient Macedonians and the Hellenistic period interesting. Again, though, it isn't sufficient to simply state something vague and then throw up yet another link to yet another website about a modern pi***ng match. Sorry if that seems rude, however, your problem with Borza seems to be that his work has been appropriated by your "enemy". If there is some Illyrian or Thracian mix in the ethnogenesis of the Macedonians, why does this threaten you? It would make perfect sense that a proto-Greek population in close proximity would also absorb some influence from it's northern neighbours.
::Are you are talking about his, and others, as well, view on the occupants of Tomb II? gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 00:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:::I thought about not granting this comment with a response, due to rudeness and jumping to conclusions ("information from 2,500 years ago", "pissing match", "enemy", "threaten"). But it would be rude not to respond.
:::Anyway, scholars in History and Archaeology work with information from ancient times. If you are aware of a different working method, please enlighten us. The ''real'' test of an academic is ''how'' to collect bits of information and present a valid theory. Theories can be proved and disproved. Acceptance by other members of the academic community, shows one's ''impact''. This is not a vague concept: there are tools to measure one's impact. When your low-probability (so to speak of) non-consistent theories are disproved and have marginal impact on other scholars of our era, that's ''fringe''. Poor choice of a word? Don't like the word? Substitute with a synonym.
:::If you do have any counter-arguments after reading Hatzopoulos' articles (mentioning Borza's newer claims, since he took a U-turn in some matters during the last two-three decades), please present them here. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

::::SQRT, I agree THIS article should deal with information +/-2500 years ago. Which is why I object to your bringing the modern politics into it, which you have with that whole link. There were no Slavs, no Greek national government. You misread my point. We should ONLY be dealing with information that addresses those 2500 years ago. As for my rude words. Apologies for you taking that personally. After all this discussions in the arbitration I would think you would understand why this would be objectionable in an ancient context, where none of this ever existed..and introducing it only further serves to drag this article into it. There shouldn't even be a mention of the Slavic people on this page. Nor should the misappropriation of Borza by them (or ANY scholar by either side) be an issue. It has NOTHING to do with it, in this context. If you have other links that don't involve the modern conflict that is great. Hatzopoulos is an extremely good source (though not the only one). A POV site should not be, though that one will be interesting to watch if scholars other than Miller contribute. It is his site, he owns the domain. Who is behind it and why don't they identify themselves? Do you understand what I am saying here? I would say the exact same thing to anyone who pushed a pro-ROM (for your clarity), Albanian, Bulgarian, etc, etc...they just are not as pervasive. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 16:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

GK1973. A fair assessment of Borza. And much more productive. This kind of post can lead to a better consensus than outright dismissal. Thank you. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 19:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

So as not to be misunderstood... SQRT5P1D2, Borza accepts that the probability of the Macedonians being essentially Greeks (not just proto-Greeks) is much higher than any other alternative he proposes. He even says that would it be possible to establish the exact form of the Macedonian speech before the 5th century, it would be much easier to come to a definite conclusion (modern findings already point at Greek here too...). The other alternative he proposes, he mostly uses to cover the possibility of Herodotus' account of the Macedonian invasion to be false or misunderstood. Most scholars nowadays are firm in their belief that the Macedonians spoke Greek and were as Greek as the Thessalians or the Thebans (most have to understand here that all this fuss about the Macedonians being different because of their governmental system or the rural, pastoral society is pointless, since kingship is not alien to Greek matters of the time, especially to Dorian-Macedonian (according to Herodot) states and that most Greek states of the Greek peninsula were pastoral and NOT maritime). Yet, alternative theories such as Borza's do exist and are NOT considered fringe but of a very low probability to depict the actual truth. It is true that these theories were much more widespread before the mid 20th century, when archaeology in the region was not yet as developed as it is today. Most scholars did not have access to all the classical texts we have today, so they missed much of our ability to compare and juxtapose a huge collection of ancient (seemingly relevant or irrelevant) texts, so as to arrive to safer conclusions. It is very easy to misunderstand (and mistranslate) ancient Greek texts, if you try to do the job based on nowadays English, Greek or any other way of expression, especially when it comes to matters of "ethnicity", "language", "affiliation" etc. Anyways... as I have already mentioned, history is a collection of theories, not axioms, and we strive to categorize them by probability. Archaeology sometimes helps, sometimes even makes things more difficult. Being absolute is most times a mistake, yet on the other hand, giving too much credence or weight on low probability theories is also a mistake. As you can see, I am also a strong proponent of the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians, yet attacking Borza or blindly refusing even the remote probability of alternative theories to be (even partially) correct is not to my liking. They are based on a centuries old bibliography which denotes some existent weaknesses in the primary sources. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 10:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:Great. But we're talking about a living person. He also has access to research and evidence from the last three decades. His current scientific impact is minimal. His current views are marginal. His theories are disproved. Low probability? Alternative? Your choice of words. I prefer to be blunt about this person's work (NOT about the person). Read also my comment above. Also, if you read greek, get "Philologos" issues 134 and 135. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

We actually agree in essence. I just disagree with your calling Borza fringe. Alternative theories are not always fringe, nor is the one that the ancient Macedonians MAY have been non-Greeks hellenized sometime between the 9th and the 6th century BC. Do not forget that according to Herodot the Athenians were barbarians hellenized by the Macedonians, during the so-called Dorian invasion (According to Herodot, Pelasgians were barbarians). Does this make Athenians less Greek? Or should we find a Greek "Lucy", an ancestor to every Greek there ever was? Borza does not dispute the Hellenic identity of the Macedonians in the historic years of Greek antiquity, he is talking about times we and he, unfortunately, know very little about. What I am trying to say is that not being included in the Danaoi of the 12th century BC does not exclude someone from the Greek world in the 6th century BC. Macedonians were certainly a Greek people AT LEAST since the 6th century BC (according to archaeological finds and supporting literature). Yet, we cannot tell what was the case before that. According to myth the Macedonians moved to the area sometime in the 9th or 10th century BC, yet the area (of early Macedonia) was inhabited long before that from peoples we cannot really identify and conclusively categorize. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:Excellent points, again, GK1973. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 16:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

'And for comparison, Hammond could have the same thing said about him...but I never would. His contributions have been monumental. Where he is incorrect in his assessments, or there is disagreement..it doesn't require stating that he's "fringe" - Gingervlad

Ah but you're too late! This has already happened but for a different reason, of course: Hammond's argument that the Macedonians were Greek-speaking. And no no no, don't think you can slip away so easily just because you're an "outsider"! We've had "neutrals" tell us that really, O. Masson "isn't that great" because the "Greek character of the Macedonian onomasticon is obvious" to him. It's somewhat close to insanity, isn't it? One envisages articles in such areas (Macedonia is, unfortunately, not the only one) that would please most, if not all, editors. ;P [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 00:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

: Why would I want to "slip away"? I'd like an article about the Ancient Macedonians. Not about whatever the heck is going on there now. That means from either and all sides, as I said above. I am an outsider with a strong interest in ancient Macedonia as it was, free from ANY modern political feeling. This seems impossible. My initial reason for posting at all was reading Borza called "fringe". You will notice that I did not call Hammond fringe at all. I own books by both, as well as many others. I am interested in the Persian connections, the marriage of Gygaea to Bubares...and the somewhat ignored influence and cross-cultural connections of the Daskyleion satraps. As well as Macedon's relation with it's non-Greek neighbours. How interconnected were they really? Was Philip II part Illyrian? And what of the earlier kings? What kind of intermarriages, if any, did they have with the other nations around them. We know that Philip married outside of his own people.

:The Macedonians were a unique peoples. This is not to say that they weren't "Greek" or from proto-Greek stock, I think they probably were, at least in part, but in the effort to make them either one or the other, the actual Macedonians seem to be forgotten. A rich and fascinating culture. Now if the papers could get released faster than they have been, that would be a bonus! Especially Agios Athanasios!

:Which takes me to the letter that SQRT posted to. I agree that the Republic of Macedonia has been appropriating symbols. But..again this is modern politics. And I am bothered by that site for some reason. Stephen Miller owns the domain, it is registered in his name. So I have to assume he is behind the whole thing. Why not be up front about it? It's just a bit weird. I think the scholars are well within their rights to protest the misappropriations. But how does that reflect on ancient Macedonians. And I do have a question. It was stated there that the name Alexander was found 1000's of time in ancient Greece. Exactly how ancient? And which part? The only famous one I can think of was the King's list from Corinth...that is one not from Macedon before Alexander I. If anyone can point me to a list or study that shows if any of the thousands were before the rise of Macedon I'd be grateful. Thanks. gingervlad ..oh, if someone wants take my username and infer I am somehow Slavic because of the vlad in it...it's an old nickname and is a joke about red-headed vampires. [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 19:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

::Yes, sorry, smilies don't always help to get the intended tone across. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 23:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

==Tag==

''This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please improve this article if you can. (May 2009)''

I agree with whoever placed this. I have been trying to improve this article for some time. I propose that we integrate the 'ancient sources' and modern theories. There is no need to present them seperately. They can be combined into a common thesis.

Secondly, let's stop trying to prove and disprove things. Specifically, regarding the origins, the section should start off with the most commonly accepted current theories, mention supposed geographic origins, as well as presumed ethnic and linguistic background of the makedones and the regions as a whole. Then we should add clarifiers and caveats to the above theories as expressed by mainstream authors. Just present the info, and leave it at that (rather than trying to enforce our own conclusions onto the article and readers). [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 23:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks, I added the tag for reasons I hope are obvious; you missed the addition during the "embargo", which was unfortunately a necessary one for [[WP:SYNTH]] reasons. ;). [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 00:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Ancient Macedonians

2009-05-22T00:44:22Z

3rdAlcove:

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==Non-Hellenic words?==
find me a ancient macedonian word with a non-hellenic etymology. I challenge everyone to bring it on the discussion group.—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:86.133.162.45|86.133.162.45]] ([[User talk:86.133.162.45|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/86.133.162.45|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.

...ooooh....a challenge....sort of like arm-wrestling. very macho. Actually, there apparently are a number of Macedonian words that don't have clear "hellenic etymologies", but these can be viewed as loanwords from another people, so your challenge is irrelevant, and would not prove anything pro or con. good luck finding another earth-shattering challenge. In the meanwhile, try to use this talk page to discuss changes to the article's content.—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:69.228.53.144|69.228.53.144]] ([[User talk:69.228.53.144|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/69.228.53.144|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.

noone can find anything non-Hellenic about Macedonians. [[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 08:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

==Ancient Macedonians were an Ancient Greek Tribe. period.==

This article has been vandalized. You delete ancient sources. You block ancient and modern historical and linguistic knowledge. This is disgusting. Ancient Macedonians were Hellenes like [[Molossians]], [[Chaonians]], Thesprotians, [[Spartans]], [[Athenians]] etc. are you guys allergic to truth?
for tribes like Molossians and Chaonians it's ok to put "[[Molossians]] were an Ancient Greek tribe", but for the Macedonians it is not?
there are hundreds upon hundreds of ancient writings of Macedonians calling themselves Greek, Greeks calling Macedonians Greek, Persians and other foreigners calling the macedonians Greek.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia do you have proof and sources against that?
If you disagree with this fact that Ancient Macedonians considered themselves Greeks(or Hellenes),
bring your arguments and sources or silence forever.
If there is not doubt about whether ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe why is this article not like any other ancient Greek tribe article? it should be like this: "The Ancient Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient Greek tribe who inhabited..."
if there is no evidence against it except propaganda, why not let the people know the truth? that is the way that it should be "Greek tribe". Ask any Historian. look at modern and ancient Historians: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia
see it for yourself , crosscheck it and tell the whole truth.
[[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 08:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree this is disgusting this is suppossed to be an encyclopedia.Respect facts and sources,if you disagree with something show some facts and arguments and let us discuss [[User:Wrcrack|Wrcrack]] ([[User talk:Wrcrack|talk]]) 07:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

==Another example of FYROM double standards==
How typical from our northern neigbours. When you refer to yourselves, you demand that everybody calls you Macedonian because that's what you call yourselves. But when you refer to the Ancient Macedonians, who SELF IDENTIFIED as Greeks, we have to sit and listen to what you (or some propaganda sources of yours) say about them. There is a Greek saying (from the Greek shadow puppet theater of [[Karagiozis]]) that goes: "Mine is mine and yours is mine". --
[[User_talk:Avg|   Avg   ]] 02:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
*Ancient Macedonans that self identified as Greeks?? Where did you get that idea from? I have never heard it. --[[User:Bjankuloski06en|B. Jankuloski]] 23:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

: Well, B. Jankuloski, here are a few quotes from famous ancient Macedonians which (unfortunately, for obvious reasons) they don't teach you:

[[Alexander I of Macedon]], king of Macedon from 498 BCE to 454 BCE:
{{quotation|Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably. (''Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.20.4, Loeb'')}}

{{quotation|Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Greece in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian. (''From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45'')}}

[[Alexander the Great]], king of Macedon, 356 BCE - 323 BCE:
{{quotation|Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you... (''Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in "Anabasis Alexandri" by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 14, 4'')}}

{{quotation|Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions. (''Addressing the dead Greeks of the Battle of Chaeronea, as quoted in “Historiae Alexandri Magni” by Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus.'')}}

{{quotation|If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, bands follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus. (''Plutarch, "Moralia: On the Fortune of Alexander", I, 332a-b'')}}

{{quotation|Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Greek Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Greek peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians. (''Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.15.1-4'')}}

{{quotation|Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers. (''Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.37.9-13'')}}

{{quotation|There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. (''Addressing his troops prior to the Battle of Issus, as quoted in “Anabasis Alexandri” by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 7'')}}

[[Philip V]], King of Macedon, 221 BC - 179 BC:
{{quotation|For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law (''Polybius, “The Histories”, 18.4.8'')}}

Cheers! [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 14:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

uhmmm, mr Jankuloski, do you really think that a person with your last name is related in any way to ancient Macedonians?? In fact the name Macedonia is Greek, related to the adjective makednos and to the root mak- still existing in the greek word mak-ros, you can find it yourself in greek-origined english modern words such as macro-economics. Educate yourself before trying to bias history for your own nationalistic purposes. And if you can not find any ancient macedonians self identifying themselves as ancient Greeks look for Alexander the 1st in the early 5th century BC. Why dont you look up the names of ancient Macedonians: Krateros, Philippos, Amyntas, Olympias, Alexandros, Gorgias, Aristoteles, Protagoras, Parmenion, Hephaistion etc etc etc. ALL GREEK. You could not find one single name of an Ancient Macedonian that does not have a purely greek name. And i could tell you this. I am a greek but i do not care at all if Ancient Macedonians were Greeks or just a neighbour nation to Greeks like the ancient Thracians. Since they decided to embrace the greek culture and to be assimilated by Greeks, whats your problem? that still makes them Greeks. Blood doesnt count. What counts is culture, civilization, language and what you really want to be. I recognize your right to have as part of your national name the term "Macedonian", you could call your country either Northern Macedonia, Slavomacedonia or FYR Macedonia. Why dont you recognize our right to not let you Slavomacedonians monopolize this name and its history? At least my name is Dionysios, related to the god Dionysos, worshipped by ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great (Alexandros o Megas). What is your name really mister -ski? ([[User:Dion Gc|Dionysios]] 16:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

:Yes. Dionysis. And your father is Zeus and mother is cleopatra ! ! DELUSIONAL.

Any 10 year old Greek can read what is written on the tomb of King Philippos. Can you?

—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek|contribs]]) 09:00, 3 August 2007

== =Hellenistic absorbed??= ==

The following paragraph makes absolutely no sense:

''"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians - whether they spoke a [[Ancient Greek|Greek dialect]] or a distinct language - were absorbed into the [[Koine Greek]]-speaking population in [[Hellenistic]] times."''

Wrong time period. The [[Hellenistic]] period did not begin until '''after''' the death of [[Alexander the Great]], while we know that the ancient kingdom of Macedon started to take part in the Greek world since at least [[Alexander I of Macedon]], that's a century before King [[Philip II of Macedon]] was even born. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006

:The assimilation of XMK as a language/ethnicity is generally thought to have taken place in Hellenistic times, not before Alexander III's death. In the lead paragraph things are usually kept brief, but you can add info about the process beginning in pre-Hellenistic times. [[User:69.106.104.144|69.106.104.144]] 17:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

::That doesn't match up with the other aspects that have so far been found, which point that XMK as a language/ethnicity was at least starting taken place since the [[5th century BC]], such as: aside from [[Thucydides]], who lived in the 5th century bc, proclaiming them as part of the ancient "Hellenic" tribes branch, we also have [[Alexander I of Macedon]], who modeled his court after [[Athens]] and was a patron of the poet [[Pindar]]; [[Strattis]] Athenian comedy which presents '''Macedonian speech''' as a form of Greek; the [[Hesychius of Alexandria]] glosses where the majority of these words can be confidently identified as Greek; Persians who had no stake in calling them Greek, such as King [[Darius I of Persia|Darius Hystaspes]], who ruled over the Macedon kingdom during the 5th century bc, would call them '''Yaunâ Takabarâ''' ("Greeks with sunhats"), Yaunâ=Persian word when referring to Greeks and Takabarâ=Persian world in reference to the Macedonian headwear. The Persians must have seem some sort of Hellenic influence to call their Macedonian subjects "Yauna"; the Persians dealt with the ancient people back then, they didn't call the Thracians, Libyans, Carians etc as such, but they did with Macedonians. Plus the Persians had Greeks living in their back yards all over Asia Minor, I'm sure they could have told the difference between the people they ruled over; King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] establishing the new capital at [[Pella]], and holding annual festivals in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]] (a city right next to [[Mt. Olympus]]); Southern Greeks such as [[Euripides]], [[Agathon]] and the famous painter [[Zeuxis]] composing some of their most famous works in Macedon at the request of King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]]. By the [[4th century BC]] there already numerious Doric inscriptions from pre-Hellenistic Macedon, such as the [[Pella katadesmos]] which points that not only there might be the chance that the royal Macedonian families were the only ones who spoke/wrote in some Hellenic dialect but so did the regular folk in a Hellenic Doric/North Western dialect which was not [[Attic Greek|Attic]] or [[Koine]]. Which is why I questioned the "absorbance", if one has that view, of Macedon during the [[Hellenistic]] ages, when there is some evidence to suggested it might have started earlier then that. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::Just a few corrections:
:::*The political acts of Alexander I tell us something about the political orientation of that king, but hardly about the ethnic background of his subjects - nobody doubts Macedonia started ''importing'' Attic culture from the south around that time. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::The way the first paragrapher of this article was phrased, it sounded like it didn't. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*Of the Strattis comedy, ''one single sentence'' is preserved, in a writer quoting it centuries later - I'd like to see a reference to a reputed linguist discussing what evidence this yields for the Macedonian language issue.
::::And how many sentences '''have been preserved'' to tells us that this ''single sentence'' proves other wise? What we do know is that the person playing the Macedonian in the play pronounces Αττικοι as Ωττικοι and υμεις as υμες. I haven't seen anyone disproven this as being false yet.~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::Yes, and in the interest of [[WP:NOR]], could you please point us to the linguistic article that discusses how well these supposed dialect features fit in with the properties of the Pella dialect? (Not that I'd exclude they might, but who here is competent to judge this?) By the way, I might be wrong here, but isn't "Ωττικοί" just a case of standard ''crasis'' of vocative "ω" with "Αττικοί"? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::The minute it is pointed to us of the linguistic articles which gives "proof" Borza's "linguistic" evidence disproves ancient Macedonian falling under the Greek dialects. As to the source of the Strattis comedy, it was taken from an article by Alfred Korte quoting Athenaios VII,323b which Sakellariou translated into English. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 27 May 2006
:::::::Ah, that's something. Could you provide a full citation of the source so we can include it in the article? As for the linguistic discussion about the pros and cons of the Greek-dialect hypothesis, see the language article, it quotes a few things. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::P.S.: Ah, I now see you probably got the info from this third-class nationalist website: [http://www.greece.org/themis/macedonia/faq.htm]. That web author manages to get even the quote from Sakellariou wrong. ''"Ma freen"'', αα ρε φίλε indeed! Let me make a suggestion: We should all get down from our respective soapboxes and spend a bit more time in libraries instead of on the web arguing and edit-warring. I'm still planning to rewrite the article, but not before I have read both Borza and Sakellariou '''in the original''', and I very much recommend everybody else do the same. I'm not going to enter into any more arguments based on cheap web material. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
:::*Hesychius is 5th century ''CE'' not ''BCE'', almost a millenium after the critical period you're talking about.
::::I stand corrected on the century but its value can be seen the dialects which are found in it do take back to the works of [[Aeschylus]] and [[Theorcritus]] which also includes the Macedonian dialect.~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*There aren't "numerous" Doric inscriptions, AFAIK. There's the Pella katadesmos and very little else. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Ofcourse, and as it was stated above, there ''so'' much evidence which points to it ''not'' falling within the Greek dialects. [roll] Isn't it funny that with each find, it mostly confirms its association with Greek then disproves it? Its interesting that King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] called his new capital [[Pella]], derived from the Doric word, '''APELLA''', which the Doric speaking Spartans (not close friends of the Macedon btw) also used in refrence to a ceremonial location; and what did Archelaus do after building [[Pella]]? Ah yes, annual festivals in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]].~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*The Doric material (both Pella and Strattis) do not contradict the claim above about integration into the Koiné Greek-speaking population in hellenistic times, but support it. Whatever the relation between those Doric fragments and the elusive "Macedonian" proper - neither of them was ''Koiné''. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::What people seem to not understand when making claims such as that is that the [[Hellenistic]] Koiné Greek dialect, which was btw was based on the Attic dialect with numerious regional influences from local dialects, was not a phenomenon particular to Macedonia. Throught out the Greek world the Attic koine replaced the local dialects. So if you are basing the suppose "hellenization" of Macedonian on the integration of Koine Greek, then you might as well base that theory through out the ancient Greek world and say that Attica, Sparta and Thebes became "hellenized" at that same period too. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::I know what Koine was, thank you very much. The original sentence expressed the development quite precisely: Before the Hellenistic age, there was something that may or may not have been a Greek dialect; after the Hellenistic age, there was something else that was Koine. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::The original sentence, gave one the assumption that Macedon became a "Hellenic" culture after the entire world had been conquered and Hellenized by the Macedonian Empire, when for the Macedonians to be "supposedly" so "Hellenized" by the time of Alexander the Great, their "Hellinization" would have started much earlier then Koine Hellenic age. Couplet with that all the other material written in this article, it gave the article a different feel to it...which I tried to balance with some of the material I added. This current version which you cleaned up, is much better, IMO, and more balanced to what we do know so far. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::::Glad we agree at least on this. :-) I'd still like to do a rewrite of the whole "controversy" section further down, but it's a big task. We can then also re-introduce some of the material you mentioned, I'd just want to frame it differently. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

there is no reason to treat "Ancient Macedonians" in an article different from [[Macedon]]. This is a blatant pov fork, containing nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there. A clear "Merge with [[Macedon]]". Stop littering new pov forks just to score points in the tired old and ''boring'' "Macedonia" coflict. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]] 20:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

:This article was created by [[User:Alexander 007|Alexander 007]] following a discussion held at [[Talk:Macedon]]; and I hadn't been informed that we were vicious pov-pushers attempting to assure the victory for x side. As for "nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there", I found this statement sort of weird; where is the stuff in [[Macedon]] that is also in [[Ancient Macedonians]]?--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 20:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::I guess the original idea was okay, but the article has spun a bit out of control and has become POV-forkish in large parts through some recent additions. I wouldn't mind refactoring it back into the two other articles, but I think the most pressing task is to put the discussion on a decent basis in the literature, and not that cheap rehashed stuff from the usual nationalist websites (see above). [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

:::It a merge is going to take place, then exactly what is merged should be filtered carefully. I think the last sections, expecially the Hellenic controversy section, may not be needed at all. --[[User:Telex|Telex]] 20:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::::One of the reasons this article was created was to free [[Macedon]] from the Hellenic controversy section, that was large, ugly and unscholarly. Removing it made Macedon better and far more peaceful, and I don't want to return to the previous condition. This article is bad now, but it can always be bettered.--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 20:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the [''personal attacks removed''] have begun to attack this page also, I should explain that the first reference to Herodotus and the Dorians is not mine, although I believe it correct; the second is from Sakellariou's ''Macedonia''. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 23:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:It doesn't matter, the way it's written it is as if the article is trying to pass a hidden clue to the reader "fairy (bullshit) story" or "Alexander and Philip use that in order to pretend to be Greeks (which they weren't)" etc, etc. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::PMA/Sept: The evident attacker is you. The vandals you are insinuating are actually very reasonable and contributing users, who are protecting the article from your POV edits, undue weight and original research. Try to blow your steam some other way, or be prepared to face the necessary consequences of [[WP:NPA]]. [[User:NikoSilver| NikoSilver ]] [[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]] 23:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
:::On the contrary, I'm taking Telex's suggestion, and citing Herodotus and Sakellariou here. 23:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

==NPOV==
Pmanderson do you think I'm not in possession of sources that say exactly what I want to write? Well you're wrong. The only reason I'm not making blunt edits here (although I can source every one of them) is because I'm respecting the NPOV policy, which clearly states that during highly controversial subject, ''_none_ of the views should be favoured over the other''. I rewrote your edits in order to respect that policy, and what I get in return is a bunch of banal personal attacks. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
:Niskin has now four times deleted a sourced citation of evidence not otherwise mentioned in this article. This is against policy (and common honesty). If he objected to the phrasing, that was within his rights to alter; to delete facts is vandalism. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 23:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

<YAWNS> [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:Next time you want to report someone for 3RR, I would advise you to look at the diffs _before_ clicking the edit button. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 00:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::I agree that neutrality is important, especially with controversial subjects. but this case is different. the article will be fine if we just stick to fact. theres nothing wrong with contributing what is known, and something needs to be done about people removing information from the article which is in conflict with their cause. dont get me wrong, im trying to be completely neutral here. if a wikipedian has independent sources which corroborate any views of the people of fyrom and their government, feel free to add whatever they say to this article. but dont add something written by them, or anything based on propaganda. i think if information continues being removed from this article it might need to be protected. or something else. what do you guys think? [[Special:Contributions/68.193.106.206|68.193.106.206]] ([[User talk:68.193.106.206|talk]]) 18:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

==Cool down guys==

Okay, you've all edit-warred enough for today.
*I agree with Pmanderson that Herodot's origin stories need to be put into some context, as there certainly are scholars who regard them as (a) mythical and/or (b) applying only to the royal house, not to the people in general. Both can easily be referenced. I think the text he proposed was not quite optimal though, I'd try to make it shorter.
*As for the language formulation ("the language spoken..."), to my mind that formulation is so neutral it does not, in itself, entail a claim to ''separate''-language status. Therefore, the addition ("... or Greek dialect") is unnecessary.
What else were you quarrelling about? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 00:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
**Of course contributions should be edited. If I had been edited, rather than having the text blanked, I would have let reasonable alternatives stand.
**"Language" is incidental damage, although it is used in this context even by those who consider Macedonian a Greek variant; it is fairly widely considered to be further from the (other) Greek dialects than they are from each other.
**Miskin has blanked all reference to Herodotus's account of the Argead descent; this unquestionably belongs in this article. I will quote it in full if necessary, although it should not be.
**He has also left the impression that, if accepted, it would imply the same descent for the Macedonian generals, which does not follow. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 15:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said before this is a very controversial topic and edits must be very elegant. Pmanderson's were not at all, so I rewrote what I could and removed what seemed to be out of context. Nothing is conclusive and no view must be favoured over the other. All views must be given equal emphasis, and the order of presentation will depend on how many sources support each view (and not on the priority Alexander_007 decided to give). The article's sections must also be re-organised. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 01:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

:I have yet to come across a scholar who questions or refutes Herodotus' citation in the article, i.e. that Macedonians were Dorian settlers. The Achaean and Heraclid origin of the Argead dynasty is a different story, and whether factual or not, it was accepted in antiquity even by Thucydides. However historian today do question its validity. Pmanderson's edits on the other hand were implying that scholars who doubt the mythical origin of the Argead dynasty would also doubt the Herodotian account on the Doric origin of Macedonians, which is not at all the case. One is about the Macedonians in general and the other is about its Royal family. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way pmanderson, there is a school of scholars which regards Macedonian speech to be a Hellenic language sister to the known Greek dialects, and there's another school which regards it simply a Greek dialect with Thraco-Illyrian admixtures. The view on Macedonian being completely distinct to Greek is held by a minority. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

:Oh and pmanderson try to look at other people's edits before accusing them. I didn't blank the reference on Herodotus' accounts on the Argead dynasty [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonians&diff=55823428&oldid=55823187] (eventhough it's mentioned later in the article). I removed a small paragraph which was making POV conclusions on the ethnicity of the Hellenistic rulers, who were in reality not even Macedonians, therefore largely irrelevant to the section and the article in general. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following:
*"Both Philip II and Alexander the Great used this claim of kinship to secure recognition as Greeks, including an invitation to the Olympic Games."
Eventhough this is probably sourced, within a such controversian topic you cannot present it as factual, let alone stick it in the "origins" section. As I said before, in my opinion pmanderson's purpose was to mislead the reader into believing that Herodotus' acount on the Dorian invasion is as mythical as his record on the Argead dynasty. I repeat: They are two distinct records. If you find a criticism on the former theory, then by all means stick it in, but don't try to generalise the criticism on the latter in order to refute all of Herodotus' mentions on Macedon.
*"This claim of kinship applies to the Macedonian royal house, which was extinguished shortly after Alexander's death. The Macedonian generals who thereafter made themselves kings over Syria, Egypt, and Macedonia itself were not members of that house; although Ptolemy I sometimes claimed to be an illegitimate son of Philip II"
What does that have to do in the section "origins"? Later Hellenistic rulers were not even Macedonian, they were simply Greeks from all over the world. Therefore I don't see the need to point out the obvious, i.e. that they did not inherit Macedon's royal line. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 16:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

== Mallacaos' additions ==

Ehmmm, sorry Mallacaos, but that source doesn't suffice to make it ''not'' [[WP:OR]]. We're not just dealing with reporting facts here, we're dealing with ''using'' facts ''to argue for an opinion''. You've sourced the fact (Greeks as metics), but you haven't sourced the idea that it can serve as an argument about the Ancient Macedonians. Come back when you can say: ''"Author X has argued that, because even Greeks from other cities were treated as metics, we may conclude that the claim that Macedonians were "barbaroi" does not entail they were non-Greeks."'' - I very much doubt you will find such an idea in reliable printed sources by reputed historians or linguists. Hint: the difference between "citizen" and "metic" is different from that between "Hellene" and "barbarian". - No partisan websites please ([http://www.helleniclife.net/Refuting%20Anti%20Greek%20Propoganda.htm]). Quote a book, or even better, a scholarly journal. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 16:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

== Ethnicity ==

So the Argead dynasty and the kings of Macedon claimed Greek decent, yet we are still 'disputing' whether they were not a Greek peoples? Give me a break.

:That's a question I've already asked in the past. It's contradictory isn't it? But that's life. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 10:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL: "Herodotus lies in his book". Quick, someone write to his publishers and send him a stern warning letter with [[Eurydice]], plus relevant news footage from CNN. That will teach him, the rascal! [[User:Politis|Politis]] 13:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:It is a usual tactic of propagandists to accuse historians of lying... Poor Herodotus cannot defend himself... However, history has proven him to be right in most of his statements. and about the rest, future will show... Apropos, for centuries people and propagandists believed that Homerus was lying about the Trojan War, or that Linear B was not a Hellenic script... But, History always takes her revenge. and no matter if the Skopjans rename their airport, history can't be erased:). [[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 13:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::Let them IMO. And then Thessaloniki Airport should be renamed to "International Airport Alexander the Great - Cyril and Methodios - Kemal Ataturk the butcher" or something like that ;-) //[[User:Dirak|Dirak]] 14:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Back to issue: One theory states that the macedonian kings claimed, even lied, greek descent to advance diplomatic interests. However, the greeks and macedonians mutually saw themselves as distinct people —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek |Hxseek ]] ([[User talk:Hxseek |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek |contribs]]) 08:55, 3 August 2007

replying to hxseek> Hxseek why don't you stick to Slavic people, where you belong and stop spreading propaganda?
Macedonians are Greeks. Macedonians are Hellenes. Proof:

"Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you..."

*Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 14, 4

if you don't believe all these you can crosscheck them from their original books.

"Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service - but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay - and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops - Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes - they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they - Darius!"

Alexander the Great addressing his troops prior to the battle of Issus. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 7

*Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions."
Alexander the Great addressing the dead Greeks of the battle of Chaeronia. Curtius Rufus, "Historia"

these are -ancient- historical facts and evidence collected through centuries from various sources, Greek and non-Greek.

also Alexander's father name was Phillipos, a common Greek name. just like Alexander, all his families names were greek and have meanings in Greek. and in Greek only. Alexander's mother's name was Olympias. if you know a thing about ancient Greeks Olympos is their sacred Mountain of their Greek Gods. that's where her name comes from. where also the name Olympia, a city of southern Greece. and the name "Olympic Games". i guess you know the Olympic Games..

...

"
* Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably.
Herodotus, "Histories", 5.20.4 ,Loeb

all the above are pure ancient sources.

for some more modern sources>
*The Macedonian kings, who maintained that their Greek ancestry traced back to Zeus, had long given homes and patronage to Greece's most distinguished artists."
Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", p.48

i can go on forever...

and for the Skopians-Slavs who want to steal history i have to say. Be proud of whatever you are. But Macedonians in the blood you are not. and also>
* We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century (AD)... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Kiro Gligorov, (first democraticaly elected president of FYROM, referring to the citizens of his country), Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992

i would be surprised if any of you can stand half a point against all these facts....[[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 00:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

==Greeks and Macedonians==
E. Badian "STUDIES IN THE HISTORY OF ART VOL 10: MACEDONIA AND GREECE IN LATE CLASSICAL AND EARLY HELLENISTIC TIMES" by the National Gallery of Art, Washington. , Department of History, Harvard University http://www.gate.net/~mango/Badian.htm

:Facts- two Greek rebellions challenge Macedonian foreign domination. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/212.247.99.26|212.247.99.26]] ([[User talk:212.247.99.26|talk]]) 14:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Factually, there are many errors in Badian's article above, so why post it?

Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

==POV?==
Instead of learning things about ancient macedonians, the article contantly examines whether they were greeks or not. Well actually I do not thing that such thing as 100% greek exists as it does not exist a 100%french or german or modern macedonian etc. And it would not make any sense to try and explain ancient times with terms of nationality of nowadays. The point of view of this article reflects aspects of racial purity and fascism and it does not belong in a serious socio-cultural or historical study.
What is the point anyway? Because of the ridiculous name quarrel, it seems to me that the articles are being used for propaganda reasons -Eug

:sadly, this is true. These pages are plagued by nationalists who prevent them from discussing their actual topic. Nobody seems to be interested in the Ancient Macedonians themselves, all that interests people is slapping some ethnic label on them. I find this rather sad; a true patriot would show genuine interest in the past. In this sense, I have met very few true patriots in all these nationalist disputes disrupting Wikipedia. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]] 08:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I think this can only be achieved if and when Greece drops its monopilising attempts over the great ancient macedonians. The Macedons are common to the history of macedonia and greece, and at the same time not the equivalent to either modern Greeks or Macedonians. When we all realise this, then we can focus on learning more and more about them and not proving they are Greek, or whatever[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

and when the north or slav-macedonians stop monopolizing the geographic name of macedonia —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] ([[User talk:77.49.0.219|talk]]) 15:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 

:Oh brother. This discussion hardly constitutes a reliable form of consensus. If direct evidence emphasizes the ethnic or tribal identity of the ancient Macedonians, then it is our job as users to present that evidence. Unfortunately, there is no detailed description of the ''type'' of evidence Rawlison and Ramsey possess to support their arguments regarding the supposed Illyrian, Thracian or mixed origins of the ancient Macedonians. Personally, I could care less if the ancient Macedonians turn out to be [[Scythians]] who know how to dance the [[kalamatiano]]. What needs to be done is to ensure that direct evidence is provided wherever an argument is placed in the article regarding the origins of the ancient Macedonians. End of story.

:To be brutally frank, utilizing terms like "racial purity" and "fascism" to describe moments where users are presenting evidence that emphasize a tribe's ethnic identity is questionable behavior to say the least. Was Herodotus a "fascist" when he described the origins of the Macedonians? No. So, let us please avoid utilizing pathetic and cliche dime-a-dozen pejoratives just because we do not agree with things that exist in reality.

:Granted, I agree that users should provide data about the ancient Macedonians other than just data that discusses their ethnic or cultural identity (or self-identity). As users we need to stay focused on any tasks that will help expand and enhance the quality of this article. Talking about "fascism" and "racial purity" really accomplishes nothing. If a few "nationalists" have direct, verifiable, and reliable evidence that focuses on the origins of the ancient Macedonians, then I could care less about whether or not their collective behavior demands our use of trivial pejoratives.

:Let's cut the bullshit and get back to work. I deeply apologize for the profanity, but users should know better by now regarding what needs to be done in terms of enhancing the quality of extant (and so-called "controversial") articles. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 15:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

to Hxseek: when Greeks (and many others) show what the ancient Macedonians were, they are monopolizing? but a Slavic group claims heritage and usage of the name Macedonian in a national way it is not? ...[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 11:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

==Recent edits==

Hkseek, hxseeker or whatever, for once I will try to tell you somethings (although I seriously doupt you will understand).

-This article and generally the articles conserning [[Macedon]] are not a ''Greek POV'' as you claim. They are a product of serious talks and contributions by many editors and represent mainstream theories.

-It is obvious that you use [[pseudohistory]] sites like ''historyofmacedonia.org'' or similar Slavomacedonian sites as your sources and that from there you find your ''evidences''. Reproducing such fallacies won't help you and people can not take you seriously.

-If you would bother to read the article you might be able to see that it states that ''Besides the theory which regards Macedonians as a Greek-speaking tribe (Masson, Hammond), the Macedonians were sometimes spoken of as a tribe of Thrace, the land north-east of Greece, akin to the Thracians.(Sir William M. Ramsey). Rather than a Greek origin, some scholars argue that the ancient Macedonians had an Illyrian or Thracian origin. It is also possible that the ancient Macedonians underwent ethnogenesis syncretizing Greek as well as Illyrian, and Thracian elements (cf. Borza, et al.)''. Searcing historyofmacedonia.org to find all the quotes by scolars who share these theories '''does not addes gravity''' to your claims, nor it proves anything more than the obvious: that some have these theories, but most think otherwise, as it has been said, proved and proved again and again in this and similar talk pages. Try to read some of these, before editing.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 07:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with most of what you say. And i din't state that this particular article is POV. Its just the language section i think tends to make the conclusion that the languag was greek a little too explicitly, when most would agree that the conclusion is still not 100% due to the fact that (a) little, if no, ancient macedonian text exists (b) the couple of hundred ancient macedonian words are not really sufficient to definitively decide a conclusion (although I am no linguist) and many words are actually hellenised because of the overwhelming cultural influence of Greece. As for you attack on my sources, I don't see why scholars from england or the US would have a POV on the matter. In fact i didn;t use any Macedonian (slav) thoughts. It appears that some people like to gloss over theories which don't agree with the greek side

However, contrary to what you may beleive, I am not necessarily trying to advance the view that Macedonians aren't greek.
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hxseek: you say that "little, if no, ancient macedonian text exists". Based on such an argument, namely on the non-existence of texts, we could speculate that there may have been hundreds of other languages. The only language we know for sure that was spoken in ancient Macedonia is Greek, Macedonian Greek. I am not aware of any references to a distinct, non-Greek, 'Macedonian language'. Besides, Greek cities or regions occasionally accused eachother of speaking poor Greek or even of not being Greek. The Athenians did it to the Spartans and to the Macedonians, the Spartans to the other Greeks, aso... [[User:Politis|Politis]] 11:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

== Helle. TOpic ancient macedonian language ==

Hi Kapnisma. The reason for my editing of the introduction for 'ancient macedonians' article is as follws: It reads

"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language, belonged to the Koine Greek speaking population in Hellenistic times"

I beleive this is an unclear statement. From what i understand, Koine Greek is the language that came into common use after antiquity, the result of the 4 main ancient greek dialects. ANd, yes, this language became widespread in anceint Macedonia during the time of Alexander the Great. WHat is not known is whether it was spoken by everbody in Macedonia, or just the nobles/ traders/ administators, etc

But that is beside the point. An introductory paragraph should outline the theories about the nature of ancient macedonian language itself. Ie it would be more appropriate to state something like "Theories regarding the ancient macedonian language differ, with scholars placing it either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, a distinct though related language to greek, or an altogether seperate Indo-European language. Whatever the case, it belongs to the paleo-Balkan language group, as does Greek, Thracian and Illyrian".

{I am note trying to be anti-Greek. I am genuinely interested in the topic and simply what to make the article as best as it can be)
[[User:203.166.99.230|203.166.99.230]] 07:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you are Hxseeker, now about whether Koine Greek was spoken as you put it ''just by the nobles/ traders/ administators, etc'', the '''6000 inscriptions''' of it that have been found across Macedonia (in graves, pottery, stones, degrees, etc), combined with '''[[Pella katadesmos]]''', other Doric inscriptions and the '''absolute absence''' of any other inscription in any form of a mystirious forgotten language or in Illyrian or Thracian is the '''main''' reason why most researchers are concluding that although we do not have enough data to adequately classify their language it most propably was if not a form of Greek, then a sibling language and a fact that those who reject it have no explanation and a response to that. (Please, do not start quoting from the '''usual sites''' that you use as source every single one who has your views again, as proof)

[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 08:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

:I'll have to correct you on this. When linguists talk about whether Ancient Macedonian was Greek or not, they definitely, always, mean exactly that forgotten, unwritten, mysterious language that is ''not'' what the inscriptions are. The language in which ''gotán'' meant 'pig' and ''danós'' meant 'death'. The inscriptions are Greek, pure and simple, of course. That the other language, whatever it was, did not get written is no surprise at all. 99% of all ancient languages never got written. Whether or not that mysterious "other" language was what the majority of Macedonians would have spoken at the time of Alexander is yet another question. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:: and whether or not that "mysterious" language is a ghost language that never really existed, but you make it up out of your..mind in order to make a [[hypothesis]] is also another question. what is not in question is that ancient Macedonians as a whole spoke [[Koine Greek]] and no other language by the [[Hellenistic era]], they also spoke Attic earlier, and a NW Doric Greek dialect even earlier.[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 11:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I was refering to whether the Koine Greek was spoken just by ''some'', as our friend was suggesting, or by the whole population during Hellenistic era. Secondary, that ''forgotten, unwritten, mysterious language'', apart from ''gotan'' and ''danos'' (rather curious indeed, if greek), also included hundreds of greek first names (not only the well known ''Alexander'' and ''Phillip'', but also ''Ptolemaieos'', ''Orontes'', ''Polysperhon'', ''Perdikkas'', etc), dozens of greek placenames (''Pella'', ''Aegae'', ''Lete'', ''Aliakmon'', ''Argos Orestikon'', etc), tens of other easily understandable as greek words for social associations, such as ''etairos'', names of months, etc, etc. All these, combined with the fact that no other inscriptions, apart from greek ones was '''ever''' found is an '''unchallengeable''' fact not easily expalinable with naive arguments like ''common indoeuropean legacy''.
To conclude, their language although hard to classify due to lack of data, can easily explained as beloging to Greek family, rather that any other else, according to the above. Of course, there are other views too, but they can not give adequate answers why a non greek population was giving greek names to their people, cities, mountains, rivers, etc (O. Masson) or why the archaelogical researches reveals clearly greek pottery, artcrafts, architectural style, etc in their cities and graves and not something else as the findings in Illyrian and Thracian graves and cities are giving us.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 17:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I see what you are saying, but you as Future Perf said, ancient Macedonian was not written. So the words 'discovered' in Macedonia could be Greek ''per se'' (not Macedonian), thus giving a conclusion that the macedonian language was greek, or something similar. None of what you have stated actually disproves our points

Similar situations have occurred even in not as distant history, whenever a culturally dominant people interacts with other culturs. Eg the Germanization of Boheimian nobles during the late middle ages. They spoke, legislated and wrote in German. An archeologist from the future, finding German inscriptions throughtout Bohemia, would concluded that the boheimians were Germans and spoke German, although we very well know that they are not. In fact the large majority of the masses did not even speak any German, but being largely illeterate, they might have left no traces of Boheimian language. Just an analogy (and czeque language was written, but just an illustrative point)

Now, all i was saying is that you may want to clarify the intro. Yes, ancient macedonia came to speak Koine Greek during and after Alexander the GReat, but before this, the exact nature of their language was unknown. As i said before "Theories regarding the ancient macedonian language differ, with scholars placing it either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, a distinct though related language to greek, or an altogether seperate Indo-European language. Whatever the case, it belongs to the paleo-Balkan language group, as does Greek, Thracian and Illyrian". And we may never know because of the lack of written anceint macedonian words. Many words found throughout Macedonia are pure and simply Greek, being interpreted by some scholars as proof that ancient macedonian language was greek. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 00:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments, Hxseek, have been responded above and if you consider yours as more solid, let's leave it to the understanding of someone else who will also read our conversation. But, risking repeating myself, I will tell you that you have failed to explain why there is '''not even a single one''' word found in any other language, apart from Greek, why '''the toponyms''' are Greek, why, finally '''archeology reveals greek art, greek burial customs, greek pottery, etc, etc''' everywhere in Macedonia.
As it concerns your other argument ''the Germanization of Boheimian nobles during the late middle ages'' an archaeologist from the future '''wouldn't''' suppose they were German, because i)their names were Bohemian (while the approximately 600 Macedonian ones, saved to us, ARE Greek [Hoffmann, O. Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum for the entire vocabulary]), ii)their cities, rivers, mountains were in Bohemian language, not in German (while Macedonian ones ARE, again Greek), iii) the artistic style of their artcrafts, the type of their houses, their burial customs, etc, etc was not German (while Macedonian ones ARE Greek).
So, you can understand what both I and the article are saying: That although the data, saved to us, is not enough, due to the above, most researchers consider Macedonian language to be Greek, or at least belonging to Greek family, but some others believe something else.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 11:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, although there would be large differences in development of nationalist consciousness between antiquity and medieval times . Anyway, all i was trying to impress upon you is that maybe the intro could be modified. I wrote it in the discussion forum out of good faith. What I proposed aimed to incorporate the different theories re: language. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek|contribs]]) 04:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC) 

: Actually the argument that there are "not many" or "few" inscriptions dating before the mid 4th century does not bear any gravity, since fist of all it is a very subjective argument. Instead of saying that "there are thousands of inscriptions that prove...", we could always claim the exact truth. "That there are NO inscriptions found from the age of Macedon yet that are in a language different from Greek". This is true and until we have a number of the Greek inscriptions, we make a strong point while allowing for other inscriptions to be found, if ever...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== About merging the article with Macedon==

Definely no. This article contains quit detailed information about the ancient macedonians that if included in the article of Macedon will simply make the latter very long, and very difficult to follow. I thing that the current format is fine with links from the one article to the other [[User:Italiotis|Italiotis]] 17:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:The material could easily be shortened. There's quite a lot of unnecessary overlap with yet a third article, [[Ancient Macedonian language]], which means the language paragraph should really just be a brief summary anyway. There's also far too many long block quotes, all of this can be reduced and summarised. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 17:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

indeed. [[Ancient Macedonians]] is little more than an argumentative pov-fork. What are "Ancient Macedonians"? They are the inhabitants of [[Macedon]]. That's it. Everything is concerned with the modern nationalist "were they Greeks?" question. Nobody seems to be interested in discussing them as a group in their own right. This is {{tl|coatrack}}ing. Argumentative blather about Greekness of Macedonians belongs on [[Macedonian naming dispute]], [[Macedonism]] or [[Greek nationalism]], not here. What can we say about the Macedonians? They were Atticized from the 5th century -- like Macedon. Before the 5th century, they spoke a separate language, the [[Ancient Macedonian language]]. <s>Hey, let us tell you about this language (about 60% of article, never mind that it has its own very detailed article). Finally, here's a list of Macedonians, and an anecdote about participation in the Olympic Games.</s> There is ''nothing'' here that could not be either pruned as redundant, or merged into a short "population" section at [[Macedon]]. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]] 08:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If they spoke a separate language or a separate dialect is the unanswered question for both sides
and has nothing to do with the modern disputes

[[User:77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] 15:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

and nobody seems to be interested in discussing what the Macedonians said about themselves(self-determination right)

and Not what the other groups said about them

[[User:77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] 15:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

::: Actually all texts from any civilization of the time determined the Macedonians as Greeks. The Persians, the Romans, the Jews...

We know that the Persians called them "Greeks with broad hats"

The Romans clearly determined them as Greeks

“For if all the wars which we have carried on '''against the Greeks''' are to be despised, then let the triumph of Marcus Curius over king Pyrrhus be derided; and that of Titus Flamininus '''over Philip'''; and that of Marcus Fulvius over the Aetolians; and that of Lucius Paullus over king Perses; and that of '''Quintus Metellus over the false Philip'''; and that of Lucius Mummius over the Corinthians. (Orations of Cicero)

The Jews...

“And when he had said this to Parmenio, and had given the high priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that '''one of the Greeks''' should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended.” (Josephus, Book IX, 8.5)

The bible...

From The Machabees...

“1:11. And there came out of them a wicked root, Antiochus the Illustrious, the son of king Antiochus, who had been a hostage at Rome: and he reigned in the hundred and thirty-seventh year of the '''kingdom of the Greeks'''.”

“11:24. And we have heard that the Jews would not consent to my father to turn to the '''rites of the Greeks''' but that they would keep to their own manner of living and therefore that they request us to allow them to live after their own laws.”

And many others...

Actually there is only ONE argument as to the barbarism of the Macedonians from Demosthenes, and even he only claimed it ONCE in thousands of lines he wrote in many orations against Phillip...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Do not merge. Article should remain as there are articles about other ancient populations. It is also important to have arguments about their origin.
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] 08:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No merge. This is an important article concerning the modern [[Macedonian naming dispute]]. — [[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]] ([[User talk:EliasAlucard|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/EliasAlucard|contribs]]) 13:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge? Of course not. Then we should have to merge all country articles with people articles. Do our friends from the north want to merge [[Republic of Macedonia]] with [[Macedonians (ethnic group)]]? since the latter is "an argumentative POV-fork"? Don't think so...--[[User_talk:Avg|   Avg   ]] 19:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Thracian Kings and Olympic games ==
Were exactly are the references that Thracians Kings were talking part in the Olympic games?? Can someone provide a link or a reference so that we can verify this claim?
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 17:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Some newspapers are not proof or reliable references for an incredible fact that a Thracian king could participate to the Olympic Games. Please provide a real reference or if possible the quote from the original ancient text that said so!
The only possibility of participating is only if he was of Greek descent and only if he was able to prove it! Being an honorable citizen of Athens would have given him the right to participate as a viewer and not as an athlete!
I am deleting the passage unless a reference from a respectful historian can be found or at list the quote from the original ancient Greek text is found!
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 10:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Map ==

[[Image:Macedon2.JPG|thumb|right|Ugly map]]
We currently have this map in the article. It's probably useful, but terribly ugly. I'd be prepared to re-draw it, I think I could produce something better. Is the content of the map as such uncontroversial? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
::You know what i think and what i will source to back it..Its ok but ugly.Also pointing out the territories would be better.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 09:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm just talking about territories. The map will not touch on the ethnic character of either the Macedonians or any of their neighbours. This was really just a factual question: are those borders approximately correct? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
::I believe i have seen the original map for this a while ago thought i cant find it right now(curses).Approximately this is the expanansion but we have to verify.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 09:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

== Deleted Proof, Deleted evidence about the Greekness of Macedonians==

why do you delete evidence?
why is this article not including the fact that "All of the over 6000 inscriptions found in Macedonia until now are in Greek: ''Inscriptiones Graecae, Part X: Inscriptiones Epiri, Macedoniae, Thraciae, Scythiae.'' Multiple vols., Berlin. See [http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/ Online Epigraphical Database]"

is there a reason? why do you hide evidence like that? if there is not, can you see why we should not put this in there? how can the reader know about ancient Macedonian inscriptions? it must be there. [[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 14:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

:Few of them may be relevant. The ones before 330 BC and the ones bearing peculiar Greek names or words.[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 12:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

== Modern scholars section ( ''per [[WP:RS]]'') ==

Modern scholars section is poor and definitely needs to be updated. We got opinion here of William Mitchell Ramsay (died 1939) and George Rawlinson (diet 1902) claiming an Illyrian or Thracian origin of ancient Macedonians while more than 80 '''actually modern''' respected and reliable scholars stating ancient Macedonians were Greek are not mentioned! I understand that perhaps it’s too much to cite 80 scholars, but we can cite 40, or even 20. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 08:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
::Yep the oldies must be removed.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 08:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:::I’ve updated it. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 12:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

== Tellon from Orestis ==

::Tellon ''is probably'' this fella "Τέλλων Μαινάλιος παίδων πύξ" Anonymi Historici (FGrH)(1139) Victores olympici(fort auctore Phlegonte vel Eratosthene)(P.oxy 222)(026),Occurence volume-Jacobi#F 3b,415,F fragment 1 line 16.
*There is a huge list of olympic winners. [[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 15:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
::And the name is attested as "Τέλλον" as well[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 15:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

== Massive source addition. ==

Honestly, don't you think that this is a bit over the top? I'm sure many sources could be found to support ''all'' views in the section. Can we just stick to the ones already included? [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 16:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
: Though not even 1/4, it’s fine with me. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 16:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Beside few historians of 19th century (with no archaeological findings at that time) and modern political motivated Slav-Macedonians there aren’t any respectfully scholars who have argued against the Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians. Even Borza has agreed.
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
: Borza says maybe..[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 08:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

===Primary and Secondary Sources should not be divided===
:If you want so many quotes without their secondary comments by scholars, this fits in wiki-quote but not in wikipedia.
:Only Herodotus has stated about the origins of Macedonians and we need the secondary sources on this specific passage [[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 08:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:: Added John Crossland's. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 15:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:Crossland's quote is about Perdiccas the first Argead king of Macedonians according to Herodotus. I was referring to Herodotus 1.56.1 "they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus".[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 12:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

== Herodot as to the Macedonians ==

What Herodot said was not that :

"the Macedonians were a Greek tribe left behind during the great Dorian invasion "

He says that the Greek tribe of the Macedonians who migrated south into Peloponnesus were renamed to Dorians.

The text presented in the article reads :

“ ...for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthia was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopia having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians."

Thus, the text should read that "According to Herodot, the Macedonians later migrated into (or invaded) Peloponnesus where they were named Dorians."

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== Ancient Macedonians were Ancient Greeks? ==

The doubt comes from the use of the word "Philhellene" (a term reserved for non-Greeks) to refer to Ancient Macedonians (by Ancient Greeks) and from a very likely distinct origin for Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks [Ref.: Eugene Borza, "In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon"]. Therefore the article should focus on the description of Ancient Macedonians and leave the doubtfull Greek origins aside.[[User:Ilidio.martins|Ilidio.martins]] ([[User talk:Ilidio.martins|talk]]) 03:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

:Man, you just don't quit. You are a man on a mission, aren't you? That is a very weak argument you make, because as people have already told you, in the ancient context "Philhellene meant "Greek patriot" [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23110917]. You've already been told this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedon&action=edit&section=33], but you just ignore it and keep repeating yourself over and over. Not only that, but you also have absolutely no source to back what you are saying. --[[User:Tsourkpk|Tsourkpk]] ([[User talk:Tsourkpk|talk]]) 04:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

:While the article certainly could use ''a lot'' of work (notice similar opinions expressed above; some argued for a merging with [[Macedon]] since this served as mostly POV-pushing, though it's been fixed quite a bit since then), it doesn't state that the ancient Macedonians were ''certainly'' Greek. In any case, I agree that "the article should focus on the description of Ancient Macedonians". Stop acting disruptively and make some proposals, instead. ;) (Btw only Alexander I was called a philhellene to my knowledge, and the word indeed was used for Greeks as well in antiquity. In such a case, we would need ''secondary'' sources that comment on/explain the ''primary'' sources.) [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 09:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

::It was indeed only Alexander I from Macedon, plus a couple of other Greeks from various places, and various other references on the same meaning in the Greek context. See [[Philhellenism#Philhellenes in Antiquity]]. [[User:NikoSilver|Niko]][[User talk:N!|Silver]] 12:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"Examining the dynamics of Macedonian relations with the Greek city-states, he suggests that the Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture into their own society, maintained a distinct ethnicity as a Balkan people"
-Waldemar Heckel, Bryn Mawr Classical Review (a review on "In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon By Eugene N. Borza", so stop citing Borza. :) [[Special:Contributions/212.120.7.4|212.120.7.4]] ([[User talk:212.120.7.4|talk]]) 08:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

== Error ?==

Before removing this part, does anyone have any reference to even one text during the early macedonian kingdom that refers to the Macedonians as barbarians?
I am not aware of any such text but I want to hear any opinion on this before removing it...

"During the early kingdom, as in the case of the Aetolians, Macedonians were often regarded by the southern Greeks as "barbarians". "

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

:Even if it were sourced, mentioning it is a blatant violation of [[WP:UNDUE]] and [[WP:POV]] , because it serves only to advance the agenda that "Macedonians were not Greeks". No rational editor would include that information in their article on Macedonians, unless if they also included the subsequent remarks that "calling another Greek a 'barbarian' was a common practice among rival Greeks in ancient times", which absolutely nullifies the original intent of the first premise. I am adding a {{tl|fact}} for now, and will be removing it aggressively on the grounds of [[WP:V]] in 3 days. Then, if someone insists in re-adding it (with a source, of course), I will add the source for the 'common practice'. [[User:NikoSilver|Niko]][[User talk:N!|Silver]] 12:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, someone did revert it again so I reverted it back.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

== Omitted/deleted words in Lede? ==

A sentence in the Lede currently reads, ungrammatically and ambiguously:
:"The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent and Macedonia'''ns''' Kings '''since Alexander I''' were '''allowed in the Ancient Olympic Games but contested''', an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4]."
[Added bolding indicates problemmatical parts.]
Logic and my understanding of subsequent text in the article suggest this might better read:
:"The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent, and Macedonia's Kings from Alexander I onward were allowed not only to attend but also to contest in the Ancient Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4].
I've tried here to preserve the original flavour implied by the "but", though I would be inclined to replace "not only . . . but also" with the shorter and more positive "both . . . and".
If someone with access to references [3] & [4] can confirm this version accords with them, could they perhaps make the substitution? [[Special:Contributions/87.81.230.195|87.81.230.195]] ([[User talk:87.81.230.195|talk]]) 08:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many clear problems with these statements and I changed them, unfortunately anonymously but added my name i the changes.

1. obvious grammatical mistakes

2. The "but contested" part makes no sense in English though I suppose that the person who added this wanted to say that Alexander I's Greekness was contested by the rest of the Greeks. This should be mentioned in the article (clearly not there)but dear Somebody, the verdict of the Hellanodicae should also be mentioned, that '''he conclusively was deemed a Greek'''.

3. By no means did only Kings compete in the Olympics as far as the Macedonians are concerned. We have commoners who contested and won, which of course in turn shows that common Macedonian people '''DID''' contest in the Olympics. We have the names of some winners and of course there are all those whose names we do not have since they did not win. I would also point out that the Argeads were not only the royal bloodline of the "Macedonians". They were a '''tribe''' of Macedonians as Strabo clearly says (text will be provided if info disputed, maybe it should also be added in the article). The Argead royal boodline was the Temenids.

And of course there is no evidence that Macedonians did not contest in the Olympics before Aleander I. We are also told that his Greekness was disputed, but overruled. Do not forget that at the time the Macedonian kingdoms (kingdom is a wrong term, since there were more than one Macedonian tribe and more than one Macedonian kingdom) were subject to the Persians...
This is why I added "'''at least''' since Alexander the I"

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 11:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

==heavily atticized??==

Could somebody explain me the point of this expression in the introduction? What does this mean and why is this here?

Does it mean that the Macedonians were heavily influenced by the Athenians by that time in terms of culture and language?
Does it mean that they spoke Attic by that time and not Aeolic or Dorian?
Does it mean that the Koine of the late 3rd and 2nd centuries BC was Attic?

This sentnce is clearly wrong as it stands there alone and unsupported. If someone supports it, he should make sure that it be analyzed in its proper place.

So I strongly propose its removal from the introduction, for alone it confuses rather than helps explain...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 11:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it meant that from the 4th century onwards they adopted the attic dialect (which is the accurate sense of the phrase).
The koine was developed a bit later. [[Special:Contributions/194.219.26.65|194.219.26.65]] ([[User talk:194.219.26.65|talk]]) 11:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

== Difference vs. Similarity ==

Hello. I'm fairly new to this, so please don't mind the way of handling things around :) I would just like to put this topic, so we can summarize what makes Macedonians and Greeks so similar or different. Here is a start (oh, and no poetry, like ancient citations or something, please):

- Has anyone of you ever seen a political, social or anyway else similarity between how Macedonia was organized, and how were the Greek states organized? :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 16:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Bobvo, if there is a point that you want to make just make it clear, so that it can be addressed to. Just making questions and waiting for answers with no clear purpose is not what we are doing here. I could easily answer your question but this is not what we are suposed to do here, so if there is a clear point, dispute or suggestion you want to make on this article, please go on and put it here for discussion. And please, try to be as civilized and unprovocative as possible in issues that attract a lot of fanaticism, issues like the Greekness or not of ancient Macedonia.

And of course, ancient citations are the main sourves we have on ancient matters whether of interest here or not, so do not try to downgrade their immense importance, please. They form the foundation of history as we know it, since archaeology alone cannot delve into such matters. I really hope that I have misunderstood your tone and innuendos, but if you wish for yet another fruitless debate, do it in a forum suitable for this.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 23:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC) 

Actually, it doeas have a point - the whole article is about Macedonians been Greek or not, pan-hellenic games, greek language, alfa, beta, bla, bla, bla... Is this article "The orign of Ancient Macedonians"? I think it should have some info about the Macedonians, at least about social organization, religion, habbits and traditions of the Macedonians, not just this pity escuse for article, in a form of verifying that each and every time when the Macedonians are mentiond, the Greeks are put in the same sentance. I mean, WTF? Get it right! Agreee? :) [[Special:Contributions/212.120.7.4|212.120.7.4]] ([[User talk:212.120.7.4|talk]]) 08:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

So... make suggestions. What do you want to see added or what do you want to add? And please, sign your anwers. By the way, this article is about the people alone. As far as their politics, social organization etc are concerned look up the article "Macedon", which is about their political entities. I agree though that this article has to expand.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 19:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC) 

OK, never mind the heading of this section. I would like this article, since it has a reference section bigger then the article himself, to be more concentrated on the Macedonians, not their (not)Greeknes. I hereby call upon those who wrote the article, to expand their nationalistic horizons and use those references to add something about Macedonians religion (Xantika, for example), customs, what were they eating, for example, why did they drink so much, know, something about themselves. I've read the Macedon article, but it says more about the kingdom, how do I put it... its macro-oriented :) I would like a little bit more micro-approach here, agree :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 14:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

:What Macedonian religion? Do you mean the dodecatheon? Who or what is Xantica? Give universally acknowledged sources or / and ancient texts. I agree with you that there should be more information on the Macedonians. So, if you have any sources you want to quote or any particular data you want to add, make your proposals here. Thanks. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

::I think that our fellow user from the Republic is referring to Xanthika (Ξανθικά), some sort of purification festival of the army that took place during the Xanthikos (Ξανθικός) month. Any more information (and addition to the article, why not) would be welcome. I believe Polybius(?) mentions specifics. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 08:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

== To expand this article ==

3rd Alcove, I agree that we can expand this article and make it much better than it is now. But what will be done must be done with care, for this issue is political as well as historical and affects millions of people. As far as I am concerned, I have no problem stating that there is a contest for the Greekness of the Macedonians nowadays but making it sound as though there was one in the past is very far fetched and should be VERY well supported. You mentioned two names, Isocrates, a politician who clearly believed that the Macedonians are Greeks and Thucidides who never in his histories disputed the Greekness of the Macedonians. If you want to use ancient literature (which is the correct way to go) you will have to come up with the exact extracts. Even nowadays, there is only a small minority of historians who try to support that the Macedonians were not Greeks and of these most (including E. Borza) state the assumption that they MIGHT not be Greeks, clearly stating that the evidence is against their supposition. Again, I have no problem presenting an alternate side as long as this is clearly stated, thatis that this is exactly what this is about... another theory, supported by the small minority of academics. You also pointed out that Macedon was according to Hesiod not a son of Helen, but Macedon was a grandson of Deucalion, a Greek by definition since the progenitor of the Hellenes was not Helen but Deucalion. Anyways, the dominant academic position is clearly that the Macedonians were nothing else but a Greek tribe and throughout the ancient years, there was absolutely NO dispute on this issue. There was NO historian, whether Greek, Roman, Jew or of any other origin that called the Macedoniams non Greeks or barbarians. Demosthenes used the term, but his adversary Aeschines did not. Isocrates, also a contemporary Athenian did also not call any Macedonian a barbarian. Read what Aeschynes said and you will be amazed of the Greekness he pours on the Macedonians. (He mentions common Macedonian names, talks of the common Gods and the songs the embassadors sang in Phillip's court etc)

So, should we want to add cultural information and details on the Macedonians, we have to do it in a scientific way that will not distrb historicity and if we want to mention alternative theories on the non Greekness of the Macedonians it can be easily done in a clear paragraph named "Non Greek orgin of the ancient Macedonians theory" or sth like that.[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 16:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:I agree with GK. I also do not have any objection to include the minority scholarship disputing the Greekness of Ancient Macedonians. But it must be clear that it is a minority, and that the majority has certain specific conclusions. 3rdAlcove non-consensual edits obscured, instead of clarifying this issue. On the issue of Demosthenes, let me just say a few things: Yes, he called Macedonians "barbarians", and I mention that clearly, without hiding anything (and why, should we, Greeks, be afraid of the truth?) in his wiki-article I rewrote, and brought to FA status. But Demosthenes' characterization had mainly a "cultural" substance and meaning. Macedonians were the "uncivilized" compared with the "civilized" Athenians, Spartans etc., who deserve and are honored to be called "Greeks". Demosthenes did not make a genealogy research neither referred to the "Greekness" of the Macedonians. According to his view, they were not "Hellenes" because they were not so civilized to constiture members of the "hellenic civilization". That is why they are "barbarians". Actually Philip is a "barbarian". His criticism is concentrated on him; not on the whole Macedonian nation. And, 3rdAlcove, do not underestimate the personal Philip-Demosthenes rivalry; two bitter enemies ready to accuse each other of the most horrible things. Being a "barbarian" is just one of these horrible groundless accusations; there were more by both men and their "puppets". Tsatsos correctly points out that "Demosthenes regarded as Greeks only those who had reached the cultural standards of south Greece and he did not take into consideration ethnological criteria."
:In general, I share the worries of 3rdAlcove about the article. But is he willing to undertake the task as a whole, and not sporadically? Is he willing to research this minority scholarship, and provide the proper references and citations? If yes, I am more than willing to help him with my experience in upgrading articles (if this experience matters at all). But non-consensual edits non-supported with material and references do not help. On the other side, co-operation and mutual work on the article could do miracles.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 10:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

::As far as Demosthenes is concerned he of course called Philip a barbarian, twice in all his speeches (another evidence that the characterization was nothing but an insult since his speeches against Philip and the Macedonians were numerous indeed). Of course he is also called a barbarian by Aeschines, his political opponent in Athens, who says that Demosthenes is a barbarian on his mother's side. This has nothing to do with Demosthenes's words but helps make clear how the Greeks sometimes used the term to insult rather than really characterize someone's Greekness. There are numerous examples of Greek writers calling other Greeks barbarians. What makes the difference is

a. the frequency the term is used (hundreds or thousands of times concerning Romans, Persians, Illyrians etc)
b. the context (usually the term barbarian is used not as an insult but as a determinant only and bears no ill meaning)

So one has to ask how many times are the Macedonians called barbarians in ancient AND medieval texts? The answer is : too few to mention... The Macedonians are mentioned in ancient and medieval texts as many times (if not more) as Spartans and Thebans together... Yet, apart from some political speeches of Demosthenes's times the Macedonians are NEVER called barbarians or given ANY other history or prehistory than totally Greek. They always are spoken to in Greek, they always speak Greek (if you read Arrianos's testament of Philotas' trial it is clear that the Macedonian "tongue/dialect" is Greek). Anyways, if needed we can keep on talking anout the Greekness or non Greekness of the Macedonians for countless pages. The important thing is that the academic community as a whole acknowledges the Greekness of the Macedonians and that is why their history and culture is taught universally under the term "Classical Greek Studies". This is proof enough that at least for the time being the Grekness of the Macedonians can be disputed only as an alternative theory NOT accepted but by the great minority of historians and archaeologists.

So... let's get to the point. Points to be analyzed according to my opinion are :

A. the different tribes of the ancient Macedonians.
B. their origin as attested by the ancients and archaeology.
C. cultural events taking place in ancient Macedonia as well as cultural events the Macedonians took part in outside their borders.
D. their religion (according to my sources Greek in all aspects, if anybody has to add something different he can always procure sources)
E. their language as attested by texts and archaeology (again if somebody has sources about some non Greek lamguage he should procure sources). The work of those FYROMian engineeres about the Rosetta Stone is NOT accepted by the international academic community (which persists supporting that the middle text is middle demotic egyptian) and we can discuss it but it can hardly be used as evidence, though the thory that the Macedonians did not speak Greek or spoke a "barbarous" Greek dialect can be analyzed.
F. any info on art, foods, science, technology would also be welcome.

Anything else?

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Concerning Thucydides: Do not forget that Thucydides called:"barbarians" even the Epirotes who resided in Dodona, which was considered by many (as Aristotle) the cradle of Greeks.The point I am trying to make is, Thucydides is not disputing the Greekness of anyone, rather the level of civilisation they had in comparison to Athens.--[[User:Michael IX the White|Michael X the White]] ([[User talk:Michael IX the White|talk]]) 15:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:: I already said that Thucidides DID NOT call or anytime hint that the Macedonians were barbarians... NEVER... I don't know how something like that could be said by someone who has read Thucidides. He even clearly differentiaites when he talks about an army of barbarians and another one of Macedonians...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 22:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Sure, no problem. --[[User:Michael IX the White|Michael X the White]] ([[User talk:Michael IX the White|talk]]) 14:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

==Disamb note, clean up tag etc.==
3rdAlcove changed the disamb note at the top of the article from "This article is about the people of [[ancient Greek]]; for the unrelated modern Slavic ethnic group see Macedonians (ethnic group)." to "This article is about the people of classical antiquity; for the unrelated modern Slavic ethnic group see Macedonians (ethnic group)."

It is definitely a minor issue, and therefore I do not intend to allow myself to get involved in an edit war for this matter. Nevertheless, I do not understand why it is so bad to make clear what the scholars' community and the historians diachrinically agree on, that the ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks (note that I do not say "Greeks" but "ancient Greeks"). This is the scholars consensus on them, as the scholars' consensus for the modern "Macedonians" (feel free to remove the quotation marks if you do not like them) is that they are Slavs. So, honestly I do not understand the rationale of this change. We change the note because of Demosthenes, one or two more historians saying that "maybe" they were not Greeks, and some groundless, vague and inconsistent criticisms of the established theory coming from fYROM? I bring this issue here for further input by other editors. I think GK1973 comprehensively exposed the diachronic consensus on the Ancient Macedonians, and if 3rdAlcove questions anything, and has sources and material to enlighten us, I am all ears.

About the clean-up tag I cannot disagree, and I first said that the article needs a lot of work. And I also stressed that if 3rdAlcove who correctly points out its flaws is willing to undertake the task, I'll definitely help him. Or even better, we can collectively with GK and any other interested editor undertake the task.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 07:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
:This is precisely the point at issue. The argument of the Macedonians here is that ancient Greece ended at Thessaly; I find it difficult to dismiss this entirely when [[Pausanias]] supports it. I would not object to ''Greek'' in the article myself, but I do recognize that there are two sides; the dab header is not the place to make these assertions.

:But the ''inhabitants of classical antiquity'' is no improvement; that's everybody in the ancient world. The Macedonians were a people/''populus''/''ethnos'', and if we need a noun, it would be hard to find a better one; I do not see that it invades the central question at all. So were the Ionians. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] [[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]] 21:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

*As for cleanup: ''holds a record'' does not mean ''tells'' or ''asserts'' or ''relates''; it means that Herodotus either attained an unparallelled athletic score, or has a phonodisc in his hands. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] [[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]] 21:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

:: I really fail to see the problem here... Noone disagrees with the fact that there is a small minority of academians who support that the Macedonians were not Hellenes themselves, even though they were hellenized and considered by many, especially Non Hellenes (like Romans, Jews and Persians) as Hellenes. As long as this is clear there is no Greek who would disagree with mentioning arguments and hypotheses on that point. BUT, it has to be also accepted by those who do not view the Macedonians as Hellenes that their point of view is ONLY SUPPORTED BY A MINORITY and is not the "new", "modern" or "prevalent" point of view. And then of course comes the question of how we should adress a dispute such as this. The answer is also clear. ANY serious encyclopedia over the world bases its articles on the prevalent position of the academic community and mentions the existance of other positions, which can be more analytically discussed in independent articles (like "The Non-Hellenic origin of the ancient Macedonians hypothesis"). Although there will be people from FYROM who will greatly disagree with this point of view, although I do not claim that their point of view should be hidden or buried, we could also dispute so many articles with theories such as "the Italians have nothing to do with the ancient Romans, since for centuries their cities were occupied by various German tribes", that "the Romans were actually Greeks, a fact they themselves attested", that "Hitler was a very ethical and well minded person who is brutally slandered by the victor's propaganda", that "the people of FYROM who call themselves Macedonians are in reality Bulgarians", "that the ancient Greeks were black" etc etc etc... All of these arguments have been uttered and are supported by actually MORE people and academians than those who support the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians. Is this what we want? To NEVER be able to write anything because some wish that their opinion was supported by more people? We can argue for pages and pages about the issue and it would be evident, as it is to any editor here who occupied himself with this issue even for a small amount of time, that the Hellenic origin and self identification of the ancient Macedonians is by far the most prevalent theory and is supported by the huge majority of evidence, whether archaeological or historical. This is why the academic community places the teaching of the ancient Macedonian history and culture under the Classical GREEK studies. Does this mean that the other theory does not exist? Of course not. It should be mentioned BUT it can't be treated as equal or we run a HUGE risk of having MOST articles in Wikipedia disputed and rewritten. So, friends from FYROM or supporters of this theory, place your arguments in writing and make an article to really present this theory and dear Greeks / Hellenes and the supporters of the other theory, make an article that will answer to these arguments. Then we can just stop this idiocy and refer to the ancient Macedonians as Greeks (per the prevalent academic fashion) BUT always and at all times mention this other theory and redirect everybody to it. I am really tired of having to be so careful not to disturb this minority by refraining to mention the prevalent historical point of view or having to persuade others that the other theory should also be mentioned...

As for the "inhabitants" of Classical Antiquity, it is a word that would be clearly wrong since there are inhabitants in a clearly defined SPACE and not time... There can be an inhabitant of a city or country or a house but not one of the medieval times or the 19th century...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
==The real Macedonians and the map==
A part of Albania and Albanian Macedonians territories including Greek territories where Albanians live belong to the territory of ancient Macedonia please refer to this map ,the name Macedonia is correct if Albanians are representative of former ancient population [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg] —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.78.64.246|80.78.64.246]] ([[User talk:80.78.64.246|talk]]) 20:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC) 

??? I make no sense here... Could you please rephrase?

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 05:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

==About ancient Macedonians==

I have reinstsated the phrase "people of ancient Greece". The reason is that first of all Macedonians existed before classical antiquity.
The second is that Macedon was part of the ancient Greece and as such Macedonians were people of ancient Greece.
The ethnicity of ancient macedonians is stressed extensively in the main text.
Further Macedon was part of ancient Greece, and still is part of modern greece, collapsing with the modern greek provice of macedonia.
By allowing a grey issue about that is equal to raising issues about the rights of Greece to its northern province and as such to indirectly support irridentitism against the northern greek province which is absolutely no NPOV. So in order to maintain a NPOV we have to maintain the phrase "people of ancient greece".[[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 05:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
:That's really pushing it. Wikipedia is not the vehicle for Greek grudges against the Macedonians to be played out, and many of your statements are not entirely supported by scholarship. "Of classical antiquity" is fine. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] ([[User talk:Moreschi|talk]]) ([[User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5|debate]]) 06:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Greek grudges is quite offensive and your point of view are extremely no NPOV. I demand your apology as this is not a place of trolling.
Second the issue of ancient Macedonians are completely unrelated to the modern issue. Whether some 2,500 years ago macedonians were an original greek tribe or became hellenised at 5th century BC i cannot see how it is related to the modern slavic ethnic group.
The way the whole issue is presented simply supports indirect irridentitism against northern greece. And it is completely no NPOV. I didn t add ancient greek people but people of ancient greece.This is very different.
Ancient Macedonians and macedon is an unrelated issue to the greek -ethnic macedonian dispute.
I expect some more arguments and not illiterate insults. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 08:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
:Please have a look at [[Ancient Macedonian language]]. The relationship of the Ancient Macedonians and their language to the Greeks of that era is a highly ambiguous one and is not as straightforward as you are making out. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] ([[User talk:Moreschi|talk]]) ([[User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5|debate]]) 08:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi. As I said it is related to that. Whether they were a people of pure greek origin or they bacame hellenised and finally absorbed by the greeks 2,500 years ago it is irrelevant. The same for their language.
Ethnic Macedonian leadership admited the same :
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992
We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35
The rest of the approaches are no NPOV. Nonetheless I shall not revert it again but instaed I would like to hear some more opinions based on the previous statement as well which is very scholar at the same time.[[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 08:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

::What is highly ambiguous about the ancient Macedonian language???? Come on people... Again... Thousands of inscriptions have been found all over Macedonia and her dominions that were ascribed to Macedonians. ALL are plain Greek. This "dispute" only arose because of a political agenda. For thousands of years the ONLY dispute was about the exact linguistic attributes of this dialect and NOT about whether it was Greek or not. Even if you support this theory that has the Macedonians use one language orally and another in writing (???), you have to admit that the universally accepted conclusion of the VAST MAJORITY of international universities and academics is that the Macedonians spoke and wrote GREEK. So, when you say "highly disputed", you actually talk of a bery small fragment of the academic community, whose opinion of coursde should be mentioned BUT IN NO CASE can be presented as equally important or equally accepted. As for the issue of the Macedonians being here porteayed as Greeks, well... whether you like it or not, this is what the academic community in almost in its entirety supports. The Macedonian culture and history are all studied under the term Classical GREEK Studies, (Romans are not...).

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

And further the discussion concerns a language prior to the adoption of attic greek at the 5th century BC thus 2,500 years ago. Whats the issue here? That suddenly 2,500 years later some slavic youngsters decided to change history and for that we have to be PC and turn our sight from the truth?
Because their prudent leadership only 15 years ago were admitng the obvious :

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992

So what is PC those days? To support a forged irridentitism or stick with facts.
Read the relative articles at Britannica and get a slight grip of historical accuracy.[[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 09:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Albanian Macedonians to day represent former antic population of Macedonia who spoke the Hellenic doric or epirotic dialect, a thraco-illyrian language from where to day Albanian language originates, but higher classes used the koinne dialect of Atiki. In case that anyone knows that then I am the [[Christopher Columbus|one]]. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.78.64.246|80.78.64.246]] ([[User talk:80.78.64.246|talk]]) 10:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC) 

Uh-oh, this has gotten ridiculous. Even Dodona (the above IP) chimed in with his wild theories... [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 11:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

“Wild theories” can be nothing more wild then this claim I do not see anything wild , why is that??--[[User:Macedoni from Korca|Macedoni from Korca]] ([[User talk:Macedoni from Korca|talk]]) 11:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

== Demosthenos and the Macedonians ==

... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors...

You know this, right? This is today considered ba Greeks as a political acting. Why isn't, for example, Alexander I of Macedon participation in the Olympics considered as political acting? I'm willing to write something about this :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 16:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything? You take your best argument as to the non-Greekness of the Macedonians (actually your only one) and you debase it to absurdity... What do the insults a political enemy of someone have to do with Herodotus's attestation that the Argeads are Greeks as far as he knows, as the Hellanodices also accepted? What political move, especially to a kingdom that was not consideed strong at the time? What you are saying asks for much writing, but it obviously is not your goal. So, if there is any real question as to anything that has to do with the ancient Macedonians, their Greekness or non-Greekness you are welcome to ask. If you only wanted to write about Demosthenes then you did and the meaning of his words are clear to someone who has read Greek literature. Can you answer why Demosthenes only calls his rival a barbarian twice in all his hundreds of lines against him? Why his contemporary Athenian orators, like Aeschines and Isocrates talk about and to the Macedonians and NEVER call them thus or anyway suggest that they are not Hellenes? Why he was accused by ancient Greek historians for slandering Philip and why he was himself accused of being a barbarian by Aeschines? And of course, even if his words should be taken literary (a fact that has been denied by the acadenic community, even by those who do not deem the Macedonians as Greeks), then how should one take the words of your top politicians (President Gligorov, Prime Minister Georgievski or Foreign Minister Malevski), people of far more political weight than orator Demosthenes? Anyways, if you have any serious queations, I will be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

@the OP troll: Demosthenes is already mentioned in the article. Isocrates who considered Philip a fellow Greek isn't, though...hmm, something should be done about that. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 12:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

==Makednos==

I think there is a slight confusion in the text. The ancient greek tribes are not tracing their origin only through Hellen in the hesiod theogony but through Deucalionids. Do not forget the name greeks come from Graecus a son of Pandora II , a sister of hellen and daughter of deucalion.
Henceforth the argument that makednos might be excuded from the greeks should he be concidered a son of hellen 's sister Thya is not a valid one, that why the correction. [[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 18:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This is correct. I will prepare a detailed answer to this in the next days... now I have to go sunbathing...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

== Doric in Macedonia ==

Yes, 3D Alcove. Except for the Pella katadesmos there are many other inscriptions in Doric although you are right that the majority of the epigraphy is in the (Attic) Koine, since they are dated later than the mid 3rd century BC. Even in that, though, there are many instances of Doric and Aeolic elements like in the conjugation of names. Actually the Pella Katadesmos is not the oldest Doric inscription found in Macedonia. Check for epigraphies found at Elimeia (dated as far back as 500 BC), in Aiane, in Aiges etc and of course there are the Derveni Papyrus, which is the oldest papyrus in Greek ever found (6th century BC, it also has Doric elements in its scripts), as well as at least three other katadesmoi etc. And of course thousands are unclassified Greek, since they are simple names or words that could be given in any Greek dialect. Let us not forget that Dorian or Aeolian are not a different language and share most of their forms and syntaxes with the Attic or the Koine Attic (which is also not the same thing as traditional Attic).

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 00:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
==source about Macedonian prehistory==

they talk about [[Mycenaean civilization]] there.
see:[http://books.google.com/books?ei=LI0BSZ7-BpS4yQTWjPnABw&id=340vAAAAMAAJ&dq=greek++macedonia&q=Mycenaean&pgis=1#search] interesting for some, i guess.[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 09:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:No they actually speak about the presence of Mycenean Pottery which is a totally different thing. LH (Mycenean pottery) has been unearthed throughout the Mediterranean (Sicily, Egypt, Asia Minor etc.) and its presence is not always easy to interpret. There are of course scholars that understand the existence of LH pottery in northern Greece as an indication of permanent Mycenean presence (see what Karamitrou Mentesidi says in footnote 11) but this issue is far from resolved. In recent years evidence of Mycenean presence has been accumulating but the question of its significance remains moot for the time being. BTW the phrase "The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black and white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far" is rather non sensical in archaeological terms. The term "Black and white" pottery is rather generic and has no particular meaning to my knowledge. The local "Mattpainted" (αμαυρόχρωμη) pottery (sometimes imitating LH mycenean prototypes) is what was probably meant, but this type of pottery is still not very well understood and documented. The source provided for this "Black and White pottery" seems to be somekind of popular archaeology documentary that shouldn't really be there after all.--[[User:Giorgos Tzimas|Giorgos Tzimas]] ([[User talk:Giorgos Tzimas|talk]]) 11:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
::first of all I didn't say what it means so don't accuse me of so and neither should you cause that would be OR. i just mentioned that generally. of course the archaeologists and historians must have a way of working and deciding whether a culture is Greek or just a culture that had relations with Greeks[[Special:Contributions/150.140.225.175|150.140.225.175]] ([[User talk:150.140.225.175|talk]]) 16:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:You probably miscontrued my response because there was not even a hint of accusation. I simply elaborated on the importance of LH pottery unearthed in Northern Greece.--[[User:Giorgos Tzimas|Giorgos Tzimas]] ([[User talk:Giorgos Tzimas|talk]]) 23:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

==Better approach==

Rather than dealing with whether or not the Macedones were Greek, or not, we should rather acknowledge that the Macedonians were a culturally and linguistically heteregenous nation. Whilst the upper strata were Hellenic, Illyrian culture and language remained in considerable areas of upper Macedonia.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 04:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:If we are talking about the Macedonians' ''origins'', we can't legitimately include [[Upper Macedonia]], which was not part of the [[:File:Map Peloponnesian War 431 BC-fr.svg|original]] Macedonian kingdom. If you can make a distinction between the Greeks and the "Hellenized" Macedonians, one must also be made between the Macedonians and the "Macedonized" inhabitants of the lands they conquered, no? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 05:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure. We can make that distinction, but this heterogeneity existed almost from the outset, not just after the great expansion, because on their movement frm Orestis into lower Macedonia they subjected Illyrian and Thracian tribes that had previously inhabited ''lower Macedonia'' itself. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:I don't think such heterogeneity is peculiar to Macedonia; the ancient Greeks as a whole were a rather mixed bunch. What matters is the influence these other peoples had on the culture. Do we have any record of the Illyrian and Thracian impact on Macedonian culture, other than the fact they once lived there? Or is this just another way of trying to say the Macedonians were anything but Greek? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 05:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to distort my words. There is sufficient scholarly opinion to include that the Hellenic component was not sole, not only in the ethnogenesis , but throughout the history of the kingdom, even into Roman times. It just deserves a mention in a sentence or two [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 06:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:It's already there (Ramsay, Rawlinson and Borza), unless I'm imagining things. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 06:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is mentioned. However, the way it is written seems to present the mixed ethnogenesis scenario as an outdated view (being the interpretationon 19th century scholars) whilst 'many' 20th century scholars now agree that they were, in fact, Greek (after the extensive archaeological research). However, even today the discussion in controversial, despite archaeological evidence. Moreoever, the article recites Theuclydes and Heroditus accounts of the Argead supposed descent as ''fact'' without at all acknowledging that such descriptions could have had propaganda purposes and been used as political ploys by the Argeads themselves. The same could apply to the use f Greek language and some customs - to better economic and trade relationships, etc

I think it is worth mentioning the proposed movement of Macedones from Orestis to lower Macedonia, is it not ? Perhaps better suited for the [[Macedon]] article, we should mention that, whilst certainly Greek was the koine language, people in such empires were multi-lingual and of mixed ancestry. Other languages were also spoken beside Greek [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:[[WP:OR]], anyone? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 15:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

''In the first millennium BC, the mountainous area of Orestis, near present-day Kastoria, and the valley of the Heliacmon river, were settled by a people called the Macedons. About 700BC, this clan had migrated eastward from Orestis looking for arable land. Lower Macedonia was ruled by Macedonian chiefs who subjugated or expelled the earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants, while upper Macedonia was ruled by independent tribes. ....While it’s reasonable to argue that the original Macedones who emerged in Emanthia in the 8th century were a homogeneous group, this is not true of the great Macedon kingdom at the time of Alexander the Great. A great majority of the Kingdom was not Macedonian, but Illyrian and Thracian. There were many different tribes that Phillip II welded together to form the Macedon nation. This mixture of people, few of who were unequivocally Greek, makes suspect any claim of Greek ethnic continuity in Aegean Macedonia''

''''The point here is whatever the ethnic and language character of the small group of original Macedones, there was a complicated mixture of peoples at the time of Macedonia’s greatness.'' However, ''We should note that Orestis, the place from which the Macedonians came to their new lowland home, remained essentially Illyrian in culture and language. We might wonder if this is a clue to the ethnicity of the Macedonians themselves''.

''The Greek towns showed even stronger resistance to being ethnically and culturally absorbed by Macedonians'' (than the Illyrians, etc). ''Wallbank says that the Greeks living in Macedonia only sometimes called themselves Macedonians. These town had once been independent, but had been '''forcibly absorbed''' into Macedon. However, since the fifth century when the Macedonian kings '''invented a family connection with Greek mythical heroes''' and '''adopted a philhellenic policy''', towns such as Borea, Pella, Edessa, on the Hellenic model had existed in Macedonia. In general they were loyal to the rulers of Macedon, and on special occasions they even called themselves Macedonians . Nevertheless the essentially Greek nature of these town persisted. It is worth noting the distinction Wallbank makes between Greek culture within the borders of Macedonia and Macedonian culture. Clearly they were different. Hellenes were recognised as different from Macedonians.''

''The mixed nature resulting from this combination was evident in local interests and cultures. Historian Tom Winnifrith even says it is very likely that even at the time of the Roman conquest, two hundred years after Alexander the Great, quite a high proportion of the wilder districts of both Macedonia and Epirus were still speaking a non-Greek language. In describing the people of the areas, Strabo talked of bilingual barbarians. Greek was the language of government and administration of Macedonia.. . The presence of the official language says nothing at all about what language was used in private, in the family context for example. People tended to be at least bilingual, speaking both the official language (Greek or Latin) as well as their own language. The first language was their own vernacular, probably Illyrian in the north and westm and Thracian in the east. This kind of bilingualism continued throughout the next two thousand years as one ruling power was replaced by another.''

From ''Greece and Macedonia. The Struggle to Define a new Balkan Nation.'' By John Shea.

So. No. Not OR.

There is no need to minimize the Greekness of Macedones, so don;t worry. I know how defensive you are. We just have to tell it like it is, and state that not everyone today, even after all this "extensive" research, agrees on the issue. We have to present it such and let the reader get all views- not the opinion held by certain editors

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::Hmmm... That John Shea... but he is a [http://www.expertguide.com.au/!DrJohnShea!_5807.aspx psychologist], [http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school-old/psychology/our_staff/shea_john.html not a historian]. As I remember, he is married to a Macedonian-Australian. In 1992, he wrote a book called: ''The Real Macedonians'' (Publisher: Macedonian Australian Human Rights Association, Newcastle, ISBN 0 646 10504 3). In the introduction to that first book he stated "I began the process of discovery from a state of quite profound ignorance". [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 23:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::Also, read carefully what he writes in his introduction of page 3:

"Probably everyone has heard the idea that the use of the name Macedonia by the Macedonians is a threat to Greece because it shows the expansionist ambitions of the Macedonians. Usually this idea is presented alongside the view that the name Macedonia is Greek in any case and should be reserved for Greek use. However the Greek claims go far beyond these assertions. This book presents ideas that contradict the Greek claims. In essence this book presents the counter-charge that the (formerly Yugoslav) Macedonians have a better claim to the name and the history of Macedonia than the Greeks in general, and even the northern Greeks who live in the lands that more than two thousand years ago formed the heartlands of the great Macedonian Empire. This might seem like an extraordinary position to take, given public perceptions about the issues. Such public perceptions stand as testimony to the effectiveness of the Greek presentation of their argument. However it is now my view that an alternative argument can be made convincingly. At the very least this indicates that the issues are not black and white. It also tells us some very important things about Greek nationalism and its possible role in shaping Balkan affairs."

Conclusion: Psychologist John Shea '''does not''' claim to be unbiased. In fact he indirectly '''admits''' he is '''biased''' against Greek position and naturally he adopts 100% FYROM's stance over the issue. Since the author himself, admits of being biased against a granted position (Greek), his further claims afterwards about "objectivity" in reference to facts are completely ludicrous, if not fatuous...[[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 23:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Lets analyse his falsifications further:

"It is often said that Alexander the Great was at least half Greek because whatever ethnicity characterized his father, his mother, Olympia, was Greek. She was a Molossian from Epirus, a group that some historians have believed was Greek by language and culture. However, authoritative writers have explained the ethnic make-up of the Molossians as they do that of the Macedonians: the upper classes adopted Greek ways and the Greek language, but were not Greek by birth. Relying on the writings of Strabo from Roman times to form this judgment, R.A. Crossland raises doubts about this supposed Greek ethnicity, noting the strong presence of Illyrians in Epirus. Although Greek was well established in the region, he says it may simply have been used by the leading families. Crossland says that even the existence of inscriptions in Greek around 370 B.C. does not prove that Greek was the original native language of the Molossians since the concept "Epirotic" may go back only to the fourth century B.C. and be basically geographic.
Furthermore, Crossland points out that the Greek writer Thucydides described a neighboring group, the Chaones, as barbaroi though their leaders from the ruling family had Greek names. Similarly, he classed the Thesproti, the Molossi, the Parauaei and the Atintanes as barbarian by associating them with the Chaones and not listing them among the Hellenes. If the Molossi and other Epirotic groups were not really of Greek ethnicity, then Alexander's mother, a Molossian, was probably not of Greek ancestry. Thus, neither Alexander's mother nor his father was Greek."
(''The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation'',
by John Shea)

Contrary to Shea's allegations actual historians have described ancient Epirotes as being Greeks:

"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994

"Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect)."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

"The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia...."
Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997

I could keep posting quotes, but I think you got the message: Yes, [[WP:OR]]. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 00:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:My point is not about the Epirotians. Whatever his credentials, Shea quotes other historians. Granted that the majority of historians view that the Macedonians were Greek, or related in some way, not everyone agrees. That is evident. However, my arguement is not about the ''origins'' of Macedonians, anyway. It is about the heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset. This has not been addressed in the article. Of course, the focus should be not lie on this, but it is mention worthy . [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

::But Shea doesn't say anything about the "heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset". In fact, he says quite the opposite: ''Lower Macedonia was ruled by Macedonian chiefs who subjugated or expelled the earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants, while upper Macedonia was ruled by independent tribes. ....While it’s reasonable to argue that the original Macedones who emerged in Emanthia [sic] in the 8th century were a homogeneous group, this is not true of the great Macedon kingdom at the time of Alexander the Great.'' No shit. A great majority of the kingdom was not Thraco-Illyrian either; it was Persian, Bactrian, Indo-Aryan and whatever else. Alexander the outset of the kingdom? I always thought he appeared towards the end. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 04:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I am referring to Macedonia itself, ie upper Macedonia. This was part of Macedonia proper before Alexander's expansion. Not India ! [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:::To end with it: Shea is '''not''' a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] since he is '''not''' a historian but a psychologist who -moreover- admits he is biased! Hxseek, provide reliable sources about the "''heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset''" and then let's talk about it again. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 05:55, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with mentioning the peoples conquered by the Macedonians, but to say that [[:File:Map Peloponnesian War 431 BC-fr.svg|this]] kingdom was heterogeneous from the beginning is misleading, especially when the source you cite says the opposite. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 06:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I mean prior to the expansion into Asia. The areas also included as part of ''Macedonia'' included non-Hellenic elements and these people were themselves Macedonians.

I am not familiar with the source used for the abovementioned map, but refer to this [http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/beginnings_hist_greece.jpg] and this [http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/greece_pelop_war_431.jpg] Note: Macedonia is depicted seperate to (other) Greek states
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:Were they ''really'' Macedonians, or just conquered by them? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 08:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

That depends on definition. Politically, territorially, yes. Also no, in the sense that they weren't the Argead's original 'clan'. As a comparison, were the Greeks of the Anatolian coast, or lower Thrace ''really'' Greeks ? [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 08:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:They certainly were, but does that mean the Thracians, Phrygians and Lydians were too? That's what we're talking about here. I have no doubt that many of the conquered peoples were eventually assimilated into the common Greek culture sponsored by the Macedonians, but that doesn't make the language, culture or identity they adopted any less Macedonian or Greek. Interestingly, Shea himself admits that the Macedonians "subjugated or expelled" the "earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants" of lower Macedonia. If that is the case, your claim that they were some kind of co-founders of the Macedonian kingdom is simply false. Furthermore, there is evidence that peoples such as the Paionians retained their distinct identity even under Macedonian rule. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 08:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Valid point, Kekrops. I shall continue my investigations. I will let you rest, but as a last note, I reiterate: there are ''some'' views that the Macedonians were possibly of mixed origins, or even hellenized Illyrians. This is mentioned, which is fine, and the weight of evidence supports that they were Hellens. All good. However, the last point doesn't ''disprove'' what I am saying. Macedonia was a multi-layered society with Hellenic (aspiring) noble family with many non-Hellenic elements within Macedonia itself. That other people kept their non-Hellenic identity doesn't mean they were not Macedonian [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 08:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:Why non-Hellenic but not non-Macedonian? If they were Illyrian as you say, they obviously weren't Macedonian either, except in the sense of having been subjugated by the Macedonians. I guess it all depends, as ever, on one's definition of ''Macedonian''. I don't see how the subjugation by the Macedonians of foreign peoples equates to your assertion that it was ''only'' the ruling élite that merely ''aspired'' to be Greek. They are rather separate matters. There was clearly a relatively homogeneous core of tribal Macedonians who were descended from the original founders of Macedon, and they were clearly distinguished even from the other Greeks who lived in Macedonia. If they were nothing but ''[[Grecomans]]'', to use a term popular among your people, would they not have rejected any such distinction? In fact, the evidence suggests that the Macedonians were always distinct from, and socially superior to, the other inhabitants of the kingdom, whether non-Macedonian Greeks, Paionians, Illyrians, Thracians, etc.
:I understand your desire to mitigate the Greekness of the Macedonians, but does it ''really'' make you feel closer to them, and if so, how? The Albanians claim Illyrian ancestry; perhaps Macedon was an Albanian kingdom after all? Where's Dodona when you need him? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 09:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::Lol! [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 09:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Greek is fine with me. LOL. Its not about me feeling closer to them. you appear focussed on outlining my desire to 'mitigate' the Greekness of Macedonians, which is not the case. Rather I am examining the complete picture, from a learned approach understanding that we cannot apply rigid, modern day, understanding of ethnicity to bygone eras.

Kekrops as for ''If they were Illyrian as you say, they obviously weren't Macedonian either, except in the sense of having been subjugated by the Macedonians''. That's incorrect. The Illyrians were not all united political body, but a linguistic category. There is no contradiction to say that Macedonians ''had'' Illyrian elements. And are we not going to mention that they migrated from the region of Orestis into lower Macedonia. Currently, all there is the mythical origins
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:Lol was for "''Where's Dodona when you need him?''"... [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 07:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

::You extol the heterogeneity of the ancient Macedonians, but when it comes to the modern era you restrict your definition of "Macedonian" to only one of the ethnic groups inhabiting Macedonia. The irony. Anywho, you'll have to cite some damn good sources if you want your hypothesis to stand. We have plenty of evidence that the Illyrians were enemies of the Macedonians, but not much about their alleged role in the formation of the Macedonian kingdom. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 04:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

In reply to your first point, Kekrops, you're incorrect. I haven't written material on articles citing opinions, or references, etc, supporting that only people from RoM are Macedonians. As for your second pont: "The Illyrians were enemies of Macedon". Not ''all'' Illyrians were enemies of the Macedonians. There were over 50 tribes in the Balkans generically referred to as 'Illyrians', which includes 20 or so in the regions of northern Epirus, Macedonia, lower Dalmatia, lower Thrace. There was a wide and fluctuant zone of contact between western Thracian groups, Hellenes, the southern ('proper' Illyrians), and the Paenoes (and Dardanians fruther north)- the latter two are probably of mixed origin. Politicially, there was an Illyrian kingdom which had wars with Macedonia. But this only included a few Illyrian groups, certainly not all, and was a subsequent development to the actual ethnogenesis of the various ethno-political groups in the region. Moreoever, from what we have seen, the dominant hellenic culture seen in Macedonia does not mean that ''others'' were not there. Yes, there is nothing hard to show for it, other than the (plausible) theories of some scholars supporting a mixed origin. The situation was similar in Pannonia. The Pannonian tribes were virtually completely Celticized, showing typical Hallstat finds. Even the pre-Celtic place names no longer exist after the 4th century [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
:::I added referenced info on the issue. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 08:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:I never said they ''weren't'' there; I'm merely disputing your thesis that they were considered Macedonians, or even equal to the Macedonians. I find it hard to believe that the non-Hellenic groups were of a higher status than the (non-Macedonian) Greeks, for example. What we need is less Shea-style partisan sources and a bit more serious scholarship. We could expand on Borza's thesis, if you feel your side is being vilified by the association of the Thraco-Illyrian theory with outdated nineteenth-century scholarship. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 12:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

K, why do you need to keep distorting what I'm saying (please show where I wrote that non-Hellenes were of a "higher status" than Greeks), and worse, politicising the issue by writing comments like the one above ? There is no need for it. Anyway, I don't think there is need to expand after CandO's little addition, that's all we needed. I agree that shea isn't the best source [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:By implication, if we accept your thesis that the non-Hellenes were Macedonians but the "Greeks" weren't. That ''is'' what you're saying, right? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 03:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

No. Where are you obtaining these bizarre interpretations ? [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 02:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

== Hxseek's edits ==

I reverted Hxseek's edits per [[WP:OR]], because Stipcevic's comment doesn't really give anything to the article and Peter J. Heather's passage given by Hxseek has nothing to do with Ancient Macedonians, see [http://books.google.gr/books?id=wCOJfTB7HtgC&dq=The+Fall+of+the+Roman+Empire.+A+New+History+of+Rome+and+the+Barbarians.+Peter+Heather&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=JMBa0bm4hs&sig=HZ5odw-KZwDDULmFP2zq1RewUEo&hl=el&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA199,M1 here]. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 14:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

:Stipcevic is a specialist Illyrianologist who states that Macedonians are Hellenized Illyrians, and makes the important point that cultural and linguistic 'territories' varied and swayed, especially in a region like Macedonia. Therefore, development of an ethnic identity is a dynamic process; whereby multiple influences, contacts and movements shape a people. Layer upon layer is added which ultimately shapes a peoples.

The final paragraph of the 'origins' section states that many scholars now see that Ancient Macedonians were Greek. Yet, some Greek Wiki editors unfortunately do not allow the flip side to be stated, that is, ''others do not'', and dismiss any scholars opinion which is contrary to their own as "non-expert". One does not have to intentionally look for anti-Greek view on the issue to recognise that the issue remains controversial and no theory is universally accepted, despite these miraculous finds in 1983 of greek writing in Upper Macedonia, which actually don't prove anything convincingly. Even if we acknowledge that the view that the macedonians were Greek is the view of most scholars, there is a considerable body of historians who think they were mixed or even originally non-Greek. Whatever, the case, the issue is still contentious amongst historians. This needs to be outlined [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:Is there any physical evidence that runs counter to the archaeological discoveries that have generally proven the ancient Macedonians to have been either Greeks or proto-Greeks? If we assume that the Macedonians were "Illyrians" (or part of the ill-defined "Illyrian" tribal family), then what concrete evidence is there to substantiate such a claim? I doubt archaeologists have discovered any form of material evidence compelling enough for them to associate the ancient Macedonians with the "Illyrians" of, say, the [[Hallstatt culture]]. If we also assume that the Macedonians were Thracians or members of the "Thraco-Illyrian" tribal family, then where are the supposed Thracian and/or Thraco-Illyrian settlements that would indicate the existence of a potential pre-Greek or non-Greek presence prior to Macedon's Atticization? So far, archaeologists have studied and re-studied the material evidence and have almost unanimously concluded that the ancient Macedonians were of either Greek stock or proto-Greek stock. That they happen to geographically exist in a geopolitical "wedge" between the Illyrians and the Thracians is the main reason why some scholars are intent on promoting "mixed" theories. Of course, what do I know? [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, the Hallstat culture is not the archaeological hallmark of Illyrians. Secondly, I am not saying Macedonians were Illyrians ''per se'', but may have been partly so. How do scholars know that the region was firstly inhabited by Thracians, then Illyrians, if we have no proof ? It is no secrete that the Greek expansion occurred from farther south, although the Dorians were initially in western Macedonia. It is highly unilikely that there was a quarantine perimeter b/w greek and non-greek peoples. Macedonia was a very mixed zone, like today, with the Greeks being predominantly in the south of the region. It is highly likely that some of the Macedonian petty-kingdoms were non-greek, although the Argeads considered themselves Greek. The presence of Greek artefacts, pottery, writing, etc does not prove against the existence of ''other'' elements. Being the dominant culture of the region, one would expect to see Greek cultural artefacts at some distances form the Greek 'ethnic zone'. Isn't this common sense ?

One does not have too look far to read in history books which state the issue of the Macedonians origins is controversial. I know my 'general', 'non-expert' sources are inferior to all your so-called 'expert' sources, but i'm afraid there is a marked discrepency between what is presented in published books to what is portrayed here in Wikiedia. Yes, the majority may simply see them as Greek, but others do not. Are we going to gloss over this fact ?

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 01:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:First, "common sense" is a psychological fallacy and hardly serves as a substitute for hard evidence. Second, the Halstatt culture is as much a part of the ill-defined "Illyrians" as any of the other cultures that exist within the same artificially created tribal family. Had archaeologists discovered either "Illyrian" (Halstatt/non-Halstatt) or Thracian settlements within the tribal corpus of early "Macedonian petty-kingdoms", then you could make a case against the so-called "Greco-Barbarian Quarantine Theory". To state, however, that some scholars subscribe to "mixed" theories on the ''assumption'' that Greek artifacts were used by "Illyrians" and Thracians during a very early stage in Macedon's socio-cultural development would require evidence of hybrid cultures. If anything, the "Illyrians" and Thracians were almost constantly at war with Macedon. What reason would these tribal groups have to adopt "Macedonian Hellenism" with the Illyrians conducting constant raids and the Thracians possessing kinship ties with Macedon's competitor, Athens? "Common sense" or not, but ''realpolitik'' figures that what your saying just doesn't add up. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 15:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Err, no. Hallstat culture is limited to extreme northwest of Illyricum. Political animosities do little to stop cultural flows. When sources speak of wars between Macedon and the Illyrians, it actually refers to individual tribes from southern Illyria raiding Macedonian territory (or what have you), whilst others were pro-Macedonian. It wasn't a large scale 'ethnic' war - Ilyrians vs Greeks. Highlighting that Macedonians and Illyrians fought wars , and therfore are mortal enemies , precluding any contact (which would have occurred ''prior'' to these battles, anyway - pre 500 BC) is a weak arguement [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 09:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:I never implied that the Halstatt culture was prominent. I was trying to explain the fact that its supposed "Illyrianness" cannot be disputed (for now) since the "Illyrian" tribal family is ill-defined to the point where historians and scholars have accepted their erroneous lumping of the "Halstatts" with other "Illyrian" cultural groups. So, '''if''' there is evidence of an Illyrian presence in proto-Macedonian or early Macedonian society, then archaeologists should be looking for indicators (including signs of a Halstatt presence even if chances of finding such material evidence is extremely small since, like you said, the Halstatt culture is limited to northwestern Illyricum). As for the "Illyrian-Macedonian Wars", political animosities ''did'' influence cultural flows regardless if some of the Illyrian tribes were pro-Macedonian. Yes, contact would have to have been established prior to these altercations, but political tensions were hardly non-existent regardless if one measures the impact of a specific cultural flow(s) to be significant. Ultimately, we're looking at a series of "kinship wars" (small and large). The Macedonians did not have deep kinship ties with either the Illyrians or the Thracians for them to acknowledge the "cultural flows" they supposedly received from both disunited tribal groups. The southern Thracian tribes had deep kinship ties with the Athenians to which the latter used as a form of political leverage against the Macedonians. The geopolitical and cultural dynamics of classical antiquity are not easily classified as broad types of "ethnic wars" (even though the Greeks were conscious of their own unique sense of ethnicity). Speculation aside, archaeologists would still have to find within the ancient geopolitical borders of Macedon evidence of an archaic Illyrian and/or Thracian presence. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 14:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::That's always been my issue with the Thraco-Illyrian theory. Where is the ''evidence''? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 14:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::You hit the nail right on the head Kekrops. It's not that Hxseek doesn't present intelligent arguments. However, the article cannot be altered significantly if there is no physical proof to substantiate the so-called "Thraco-Illyrian Theory". [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Alternative theories should be mentioned insofar as they are supported by serious scholars. However, I have yet to see the evidence these theories are based on. Perhaps Hxseek can enlighten us. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 17:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::I concur. But knowing Hxseek, I'm sure he'll provide something. If not, then we can safely regard the "Thraco-Illyrian Theory" as merely an unsubstantive alternative ''hypothesis''. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 17:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

At present I am working on other projects, leaving me no time to actively search for archaeological appraisals of early Macedonian material. However, since we ''know'' that Macedonia was actually firstly inhabited by Thracian peoples (ie the Bryges), then illyrians, I'm sure some evidence exists. Do we not know that there was peaceful co-existence between the Bryges and Macedones. When the Macedonians expanded their rule, they absorbed these other people. If the Macedonians were an archaic Greek tribe (with a culture which was rather distant to greece proper), ''other'' elements also existed. Afterall, when one ethnos invades another, contrary to what some beleive, the other is not exterminated, but merely subjegated and eventually absorbed. I find it hard to believe that the Macedonians ethnically cleansed Macedonia of other ethnic elements (thracians, illyrians). Yes, the archaeological record, at present might is scarce in support of a mixed-origin scenario. This could be due to several reasons. When one culture is dominant, it naturally appears ubiquitous. Secondly, the pervasiveness of 'Hellenic' material evidence does ''not'' prove against the existence of non-Hellenic peoples. Afterall, material cultures do not necessarily equate with the ethnic origins of the peoples residing within that cultural zone. Thirdly, archaeological discoveries might be skewed by what the archaeologists themselves wish to discover. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

:"I'm sure some evidence exists." In other words, there is no evidence, just speculation. Got it. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 12:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there is evidence. The fact that historians agree that a large part of Macedonia (even ''lower'' Macedonia) was inhabited by Thracians and Illyrians prior to the 5th or 6th century isn't a wimsical concoction out of thin air. The obvious slanted stance of the article is only thinly veiled by the superficially 'academic' manner it is presenented. Information is selectively presented to present a particular point of view, such as quotes from ancient historians, without commenting on the often dubious reliablity of these historians who only used their narrative to fulfil their contemporary political agendas. Not to mention the use of antiquated ideas of ethnogenesis, the "Dorian invasion", and an anachronistic representation of what it meant to be ''Greek'' in the 5th century B.C. No mentioning of the fact that it may have only been the ruling family which had, or claimed to have, a Greek origin.

If we want to understand and celebrate the glory of the Macedones, one has to be willing to explore the variable number of interpretations as presented by reputable sources; not to present the article as if the matter is a forgone conclusion. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 11:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

:It's good that you are questioning literary sources. But we still need hard proof to indicate that Macedon was inhabited by Thracians and Illyrians prior to the Mycenean period. The only thing going for the Thraco-Illyrian hypothesis is the fact that Thracians and Illyrians were living in Macedon when its borders ''expanded'' into Thracian and Illyrian territories (i.e. empire). [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

== I propose a warning in similar pages ==

"This page is related to the heated topic in modern times referenced in "[[macedonian naming dispute]]". It is likely that edit wars about the origin of anything Macedonian is taking place". Because wikipedia shouldn't pretend edit wars about ancient times related articles aren't directly and probably solely related to the modern dispute. [[User:Leladax|Leladax]] ([[User talk:Leladax|talk]]) 19:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

: I would not agree with 'solely' , at all [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 01:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

== sources needed ==

"nearly all of them advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin" does not have a source [[User:Mactruth|Mactruth]] ([[User talk:Mactruth|talk]]) 02:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

At present, the discussions focus on a ''primordialistic'' (and therefore an outdated and simplistic) approach to ethnicity. Debating about whether they were "Greek" or something else (whatever such terms may have actually meant in the ''5th century BC'') is futile and artificial. Continuing from above discussions, I have seen that archaeological evidence ''does'' exist that Macedonia was first inhabited by Thracian and Illyrian tribes, and that there is no reference to Macedonians before the 5th century. Herodotis speaks of them, prior to their migration, as ''Temenids''. This clan, perhaphs Greek -speaking, then migrated into Macedonia from the slopes of mount Olympus, and slowly established political supremacy over neighbouring, non-Greek tribes. There was no expulsion or extermination - genocide is a modern concept. So by a process of ethnogenesis, we can see how the Macedonians were formed, as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit. Naturally, Greek language was then spread primarily by means of cultural contacts to much of Macedonia, but certainly not all. The cultural contrasts between Macedonia and Greece remained visible to all ancient historians. Therefore, to classify their origins as "Greek" is clearly simplistic and chauvanistic. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

It is really funny how you choose to use sources... Herodot speaks of the Macedonians as being pure Hellenic. He stresses that they migrated to what was later called Macedonia from the South, how a branch of them later moved south and was called Dorian, AFTER it had entered the Peloponnese, how it (the Macedonians) taught the Pelasgian Athenians the HELLENIC language... This is what Herodot relates, whether you like it or not. So, should you choose to use him as a source, you have no option than to accept his story, a story that was never disputed, as far as the origin of the Macedonians was concerned in the ancient times. As far as other inhabitabts of what you call Macedonia are concerned, of course they have been of multiple and different origins, tribes, ethnicities etc, but first you really should define Macedonia, since at this time, Macedonia is just a fraction of what is today called "Region of Macedonia". Of course, among the inhabitabts, especially BEFORE the Macedonian migration from the South there were Thracian, Illyrian, Pelasgian or even more diverse tribes, as was the case all over, not just the Balcans, but the world... No ancient Greek ever denied that BEFORE the Macedonians, the same lands that were later occupied by the Argeads were occupied by non-Hellenic tribes (whatever they might have been) like the Bryges... The same applies to Magna Graecia, where the Greeks ousted or assimilated the indigenous populations, as well as in the Ionian coast. Again, regardless your individual beliefs, archaeology has not disproven any claims of the ancients. All archaeological evidence from the MACEDONIAN civilization, not from NON-MACEDONIAN civilizations which existed prior or parallel to them, point to a Greek civilization. As far as the spread of the Greek language is concerned, I find it very interesting that you seem to deem it almost self explanatory, although, you give no reason as to why NO non-Hellenic tribe of the day adopted it. Why do you find it so logical, that from ALL tribes that inhabited the area, it was ONLY the Macedonians who spoke and wrote Greek? If the Greek culture was sooo pervasive, why didn't it also conquer the Triballi, the Agrianes, the Paeonians, the Odrysses and all the other non-Macedonian, non-Hellenic tribes? Your assumptions are based on absolutely no evidence, while at the same time you try to both disprove ALL ancient writers, historians and politicians (except maybe Demosthenes...) while at the same time using them to support various other claims by quoting them out of context. I am really sorry, but there is a reason why even E. Borza has NOT denied the possibility that Macedonians were Greek as you do. Anyways...when the international academies catch up with your various proposals and decide to revise history, then we will be able to talk on a different basis. Until then, please, keep us informed on what the archaeological teams of your country unearth, as long as it has to do with the Macedonians and NOT with any tribe which happened to live upon Macedonian soil, especially as you now define it...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 01:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you misunderstood my points. I have not been "selective" in my sources, in fact, it is your compratriots who have been selective in the sourcing. They disregard any source which raises doubts about the Hellenic character of the Macedonians as "generalist" or "non-expert", see above discussions. One might interpret this as a biasing of sources, although I do understand and acknowledge that the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking. This is not what I have been debating against.

The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms. Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever, it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia. You say that no Greek denies that Macedonia was originally Thracian or Illyrian territory, yet if you again refer above, you well note that other users even deny this (eg see Deucalionite's comment, who if anything, is a very learned and rather 'moderate' user).

My point is that the Greek element introduced into Macedonia was a model of 'elite dominance', whereby Greek speakers from south imposed themselves and their language on the territory and its inhabitants. It was upon this movement and subsequent assimilation of peoples that the ''Macedonians'' begin as a people. To simply speak of them as Greek, or not, is simplistic and wrong. It denies the complexities involved in how a people begin. They were a mixed people which became increasingly Atticised, now doubt in part due to the political ploys of the Argeads themselves. Was it not only the Royal Family which were admitted to the Olympic games, and not other Macedonians ?

In addition, you would be wrong to claim that this process did not apply to other tribes. Although also disputed, some also argue that the so-called Epirotians (Chaionians, Mollosians) are Hellenized Illyrians. Even the Paenes and Thracians, which are obviously non-Hellenic, became largely Hellenized by the end of antiquity.

And yes, I do suspect that established and reputable scholars still need to catch up with modern thinking about ethnicity ! The old Kossinian approach to archaelogy and the concept of ''Volk'' is hard to shake off, no matter how many current social anthropologists have argued against such outdated assumptions

I leave with this quote ''Names of people may seem familiar after a thousand years, but the social, cultural and political realities covered by these names were radically different from what they are today''. ''The real history of the nations of Europe begins in the 18th century. This is not deny that, in the past, people had notions of collective identity.''<ref> Myth of Nations. The Medieval Origins of Europe. Patrick Geary. Princeton Paperbacks. ISBN 0 – 691-11481- 1.Pg 13-15.</ref>

To summarise:

Macedonia was initially setllted by Thracians and Ilyrian groups. This is evidenced not only by the ancients’ writings who called the lands around the Axius, the Thermic Gulf, and the HEART of the future Kingdom of Macedon as Thrace <ref>The Cambridge Ancient History.Frank William Walbank. Edition: 2. Published by Cambridge University Press, 1984. ISBN 052123445X. Page 273-85. </ref>. Eg Strabo ‘’Wat is now Macedonia was called in earlier times Emanthia. This territory was held by certain of the Epirotes and Illyrians,, but most of it by Bottiaeans and Thracians. The Bottiaeans, they say, were from Crete by descent (sic) and of the Thracians the Pieres occupied Piera and the area by Olympus, the Paeones that by the Axius .. the Edoni and the Bisaltae the rest of the land up to the Strymon’’ (Strabo, VII, fr. II).
As for the Illyrians: ‘’the archaeological evidence is clear at Verginia and in the lower Vardar valley, they were in control from some time in the 8th century BC to c. 650 BC”. Illyrian features typical of the Glasinac culture. Similarly, evidence of Thracian remains are also abundant.

Back to Strabo: he records the expansion of Macedonians not as "Macedonians” but as ‘the so-called Argeadae’. The author suggests that the homeland of the Macedones was in the mountainous area of the Olympic mountain and the Heliacmon beneath. Theucydides account (Th. II. 99) describes their expansion into the lands of their neighbours. Both Thucydides and Herodous agree that the expansion of what later became known as the Macedones was associated with a royal house, the Temenidae of Argos in the Peloponesse (clearly Greek). Yet, the lifestyle of the Macedones was one of semi-pastoralism (akin to Vlachs), different to most Greeks. Similalry, they organized themselves into ''ethne'' – clusters of small tribes- just like the non-Greek Illyrians. In turn, the Macedonian ''ethne'' was sub-composed of Orestae, Molossoi, Perrhaebi, Lycentsae and the ‘Argaeadae’, amongst others. With the possible exception of the Mollosoi, it was only the Argaedae who claimed Greek descent. And it was only the Argaedae who participated in the Olympic games. Herodotus writes that Alexander was accepted not as a Macedonnian, but as a Temenid from Argos.

The Macedonian ruling house spoke Greek and had Greek names, but “to speak Greek was not to be Greek in the 6th and 5th centuries, that was a matter of culture”. Hence until later, the Macedonians were considered non-Greek barbarians in early times. Clearly they had different customs, lifestyle and political organization to the rest of Greece.

Notwithstanding, the archaeological record is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century. Yet this Hellenization should not be thought of as a mass migration of “Greeks” from farther south, expelling non-Greeks. Rather “Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interactions. Such (sic) interactions were probably responsible for the development of the networks of contacts which facilitated the creation of similar customs”.<ref> Archaeology and language: the puzzle of Indo-European origins
By Colin Renfrew
Edition: reprint, illustrated
Published by CUP Archive, 1990
ISBN 0521386756,</ref> That is, the spread of a new archaeological culture need not require the implication that anyone actually moved; given that the cohesion to a material culture by certain groups might signify the acquisition of a new, higher level of identity. This is not to deny that there wasn;t some, ''small-scale'' migrations, eg of some kind of warrior-pastoralists. Herodotus and others’ semi-legendary accounts of the Argaeaeds might well be true. However, it more accurately suggests the movement of a small, new dominant clan imposing itself on other, obviously already mixed peoples. The disappearance of the previous Illyrian and Thracian cultures does not mean that those people also disappeared, but had merely adopted, or were eclipsed by, the new dominant group of the region which aspired a Hellenic cultural identity.

Thus it would be wrong to think of the Macedonians as a pre-formed people which existed in the depths of pre-history, an as yet unnoticed Greek people, biding their time. This is why there is no mention of Macedonians before 6th century BC. Clearly their origins are traced to the ascendency of a ruling group, or clan, which asserted authority over new peoples c. 6th century BC. Although the Teminids were Greek, the Macedonians were a mixed peoples.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 09:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I have made some edits in accordace to the discussion, refferences and the common sence. [[User:Jingiby|Jingby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 13:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I have to ask for forgiveness regarding the length of my answer, but I truly believe it is due. So, let's see your points...
{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|
1. At present, the discussions focus on a primordialistic (and therefore an outdated and simplistic) approach to ethnicity. Debating about whether they were "Greek" or something else (whatever such terms may have actually meant in the 5th century BC) is futile and artificial.
|}

First you say there is no point in debating whether the ancient Macedonians were of Greek stock or not. It is wrong to bring in primordialism into the discussion, since the question here is not whether today's Balkan nations have anything to do with the ancients but whether THESE ancients identified themselves as Greeks. There is absolutely no simplicity involved in categorizing this people as a Greek (or any other) tribe, according to archaeological and literary evidence. The term "Hellenas: was not artificial in the 5th century BC, as you seem to claim.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. archaeological evidence ''does'' exist that Macedonia was first inhabited by Thracian and Illyrian tribes, and that there is no reference to Macedonians before the 5th century
|}

As I pointed out, first you do not define the geographical Macedonia you are speaking of... In order to be able to examine where any evidence has been found, we have to know the extents of this where... So, are you talking about Illyrian or Thracian presence around Bitola, around Pella, around Dion, in Chalkidike or maybe around the Strymon? All these places have been called Macedonia, although in and before the 5ht century things were different. As for the presence of the Macedonians before the 5th century and references thereof, I can only assume you are talking about the literary evidence, which happens to start at this period. So in that context we have no reference of any Spartans before that... Yet, all ancient writers place the starting point of the Macedonian existence in a much older time, first as a Hellenic tribe which migrated north and then again south to cause the Dorian Invasion and then as the Temenids and their followers, who lived among the Bryges, a tribe, which does not seem to belong either to the Illyrian or to the Thracian group, a people which later migrated into Asia, probably as a result of a non-peaceful reality.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. Herodotis speaks of them, prior to their migration, as ''Temenids''. This clan, perhaphs Greek -speaking, then migrated into Macedonia from the slopes of mount Olympus, and slowly established political supremacy over neighbouring, non-Greek tribes.
|}

Herodot does not call the Macedonians "Temenids" prior to their migration north. He calls them "Makednous". He does NOT say that PERHAPS they were Greek speaking. He says that they WERE Greek speaking and goes on to relate how THEY HELLENIZED the Athenians. He also, does not say anything about them extending their supremacy over other neighboring Greek or non Greek tribes. This is why I said that you misquote Herodot. You seem to mix this up with Herodot's account of the descendance of Alexander I, when he relates of how the sons of Temenos fled to an unnamed Macedonian king from Argos, there forming their own kingdom. So, according to Herodot, the Macedonians were Hellenes, they were the same people later called Dorian and Lacedaemonian and they were the ones who brought the Athenians into the Hellenic world (as incredible as it might sound to some, this is what Herodot claims. Of course then, another huge discussion can be initiated as to whether the Pelasgians could be considered Greek or pre-Greek etc, but this is another question). According to Herodot, the Temenids were Hellenes from Argos, who ruled over Macedonians, definitely calling them also Hellenes, but under no circumstances saying that only the Argeads / Temenids were Macedonians. In conclusion, Herodot clearly defines the Macedonians as Hellenes and places the beginning of their existence before the invasion of the Dorians into the Peloponnese. The second story is about the Argead House alone and has a value of its own, since they are actually what all this irrational debate (not between me and you, but in a political sense) is about.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|4. There was no expulsion or extermination - genocide is a modern concept. So by a process of ethnogenesis, we can see how the Macedonians were formed, as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit.
|}

How did you come to this conclusion? Of course this might be true, but expulsion and to a lesser degree extermination, were methods used by the ancients to occupy new areas. Why did the Bryges migrate to Asia Minor, if they did not have to? Isn't this expulsion? We can't just view the Macedonians as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit, since they are NEVER accounted as one. To have a multi ethnic ethnos, you don't just look at the genes. No tribe or people on earth EVER is pure (pure from what? since when?) but you have to see it in terms of assimilation. A multi ethnic group of people is a state like the US, where every ethnic group keeps (even to a certain degree) its own customs, religion, speech, even sense of ethnicity. Macedonians were just Macedonians. If (and in so many centuries, I bet they did) non-Macedonian tribes were included in their ethnos (a term not to be confused with "nation"), the latter were assimilated and became a full part of their assimilators. Themistocles, Demosthenes and so many other glorious Athenians were partly barbaric. This did not make them less Greek, even if sometimes they were slandered as such (rings any bells?). Wasn't Demosthenes called a barbarian, a semi-Scythian? Yet, he was a Greek and of course enjoyed all the rights and honors every other Greek did.

According to the Greeks there was NO process of ethnogenesis as you imply. The Macedonians were an ethnos BEFORE migrating/invading north. They were not formed in these lands.

Now the second part of this claim is even more peculiar... "a heterogenous POLITICAL unit"? Macedonia was ruled by Macedonians, there were no multi-ethnical councils, non Macedonian kings, a set proportion of non Macedonian delegates in any kind of assembly.
{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|
5. Naturally, Greek language was then spread primarily by means of cultural contacts to much of Macedonia, but certainly not all. The cultural contrasts between Macedonia and Greece remained visible to all ancient historians.
|}

As I have already shown, according to Herodot it was the Macedonians who spread the Hellenic language, not the other way around. And of course it is also interesting, that the Macedonians were Greek speakers, while the Thracians, Illyrians, Bryges, Paeonians etc were not. Again you say "to much of Macedonia" but fail to make understood whether you are speaking of the Macedonian tribes or the land of Macedonia as is TODAY defined... If you are talking about the Macedonian tribes, then you obviously are wrong, since all are attested to have been Greek speaking, if you are talking of Macedonia as a geographical term, then of course, there were non-Macedonian peoples who did not speak Greek. As for the cultural contrasts you are referring to, you are greatly generalizing. First of all you group the rest of Greece, as if the Spartans had the same customs to the Athenians, as if the Syracusans had the same customs to the Cretans. What is it that strikes you as non Greek in Macedonian culture? Is it the architecture? The arts of painting and sculpture? Pottery? Religion? Burial customs? The fact that they were a pastoral society in contrast to the seafaring Athenians? Was the custom of the Spartans to have any deformed child killed a Greek custom? Was their Agoge a Greek custom? Were the Epirotans, the Ambracians, the Thessalians, the Acarnanians also seafaring? Were the hats of the Thessalians typical of all Greeks? Were Syracuse, Sparta, the Cypriotic cities democracies? You cannot just summarize the traditions and culture of all Greek states as "Greek" and then just say that the Macedonians' were different.. Please, make more research on this and you will easily see that Macedonian traditions were more Greek than those of Lacedaemon. You really touch this aspect from an angle that makes little sense. Should you like to explore the cultural identity of the Macedonians, then you have to research their religion, their rituals, their self-identity, their art, their language, factors that even today define a cultural identity, rather than whether they put one or two jars in tombs.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|6. Therefore, to classify their origins as "Greek" is clearly simplistic and chauvanistic.
|}

This was not a good conclusion. To call everybody who disagree with your poor argumentation a chauvinist does not contribute to a civilized discussion, especially, when you are confronting accepted history and archaeology. It implies a deep disrespect to me and everyone else who happen to disagree.

Now... let's go on to your second post.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|1. I'm afraid you misunderstood my points. I have not been "selective" in my sources, in fact, it is your compratriots who have been selective in the sourcing. They disregard any source which raises doubts about the Hellenic character of the Macedonians as "generalist" or "non-expert", see above discussions.
|}

I hope I have misunderstood, but it unfortunately does not seem so. You have been selective in your sources, since you misquoted Herodot. I am not talking about other sources, since you offered none (it was a small text, you didn't have to). Yet, you misquoted Herodot, which is a selective use of a source. Greeks being selective? Of course not. They know that there are passages that call the Macedonians barbarians (however few in number), they know that there are academians who support that the Macedonians were a non Greek tribe (however few). They don't try to misquote them but to answer to their argumentation, which is a totally different thing. That there are unschooled Greeks who don't know a thing about history or archaeology and yet formulate opinions based on what they have heard or read someplace is of course self evident, but the general Greek approach on this matter is much more appropriate than using sources according to whim. Herodot conclusively claimed that the Macedonians were Greek AND that the Argeads were Greeks. Using Herodot to claim that "not all Macedonians spoke Greek", that "the Macedonians were called Temenids, before they migrated to Macedonia" etc, are obvious blunders and misquotes. As for "generalist" or "non-expert" opinions, I can only offer you my opinion if you exactly tell me to which ones you are referring to. Are there "generalist" or "non-expert" opinions? Of course there are. Unfortunately, the web is filled with opinions of people who misquote, generalize, falsely translate etc texts to further their cause. Yet, there are expert opinions too..

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. One might interpret this as a biasing of sources, although I do understand and acknowledge that the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking. This is not what I have been debating against.
|}

Of course there is a biasing of sources. There are sources of value and others of no value. The question is always on what grounds anybody accepts or rejects a source. Rejecting a serious source should not be acceptable, arguing with it is. Accepting a worthless source is also unacceptable, using it to further conduct personal research is not.

However, your admission that "the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking" shows you are not yet another advocate of extremist positions, which makes me really happy.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms. Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever, it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia.
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Now.. this sentence for example calls for a lot of discussion. You first say "The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms". Correct. As far as all sources are concerned, this is the case. Then you proceed with "Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever,..." No problem with that, although you avoid the words "..or the truth.." and you close up with "it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia.".... yes its is... although it is more likely to signify the Greekness of the Macedonian tribes. Again you are doing a mistake mixing up geography with peoples. Your argument is correct if one interprets Macedonia as a place, which is what you obviously do, when you are saying, that then it was called Emathia (by the way, much less sources on that than on the prehistory of the Macedonians...). But this element, you are referring to, the "intrusive Greek element", was according to the ancients the Macedonians. Anyone reading this sentence will misunderstand your use of Macedonia and unfortunately (not your fault) will think that what you mean is that there was "an intrusive Greek element" among the Macedonian people. The question I am posing here is what did you mean?

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|4. You say that no Greek denies that Macedonia was originally Thracian or Illyrian territory, yet if you again refer above, you well note that other users even deny this (eg see Deucalionite's comment, who if anything, is a very learned and rather 'moderate' user).
|}

Again you are doing the same mistake... which Macedonia are you talking about? And what Thracians or Illyrians are you talking about? Macedonia in the current sense was of course in many parts inhabited by Thracian or/and Illyrian. Paeonians for example could have been Thracian tribes and they lived in the modern region of Macedonia before the migration of the Macedonians, Of course their land was NOT Emathia, nor was it called Macedonia afterwards up until much later. The Bryges, do not seem to have been neither Illyrian nor Thracian but they were non-Greek and of course non-Macedonians. It all has to do with HOW YOU DEFINE MACEDONIA. Macedonia Proper was not Illyrian nor Thracian territory, before the Macedonian migration, as archaeology seems to suggest. But it also was not Greek. You see there were more cultures/peoples/tribes etc in the wider Macedonian region than just Thracians or Illyrians.

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|5. My point is that the Greek element introduced into Macedonia was a model of 'elite dominance', whereby Greek speakers from south imposed themselves and their language on the territory and its inhabitants. It was upon this movement and subsequent assimilation of peoples that the Macedonians begin as a people. To simply speak of them as Greek, or not, is simplistic and wrong. It denies the complexities involved in how a people begin. They were a mixed people which became increasingly Atticised, now doubt in part due to the political ploys of the Argeads themselves. Was it not only the Royal Family which were admitted to the Olympic games, and not other Macedonians ?
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I really don't mean any disrespect, but as what kind of a source should I accept you? You come to a conclusion (already advocated or proposed by some historians, true) and you propose that to call them a Greek tribe is "simplistc" (yet another offensive term meant for all of us who advocate that theory and do not consider ourselves simplistic). But apart from just stating your opinion, you fail to present any archaeological or literary evidence to support it. Herodot doe NOT agree with you. Nor do Thucydides or Strabo, names you later mention. You keep on presenting the Macedonians as beginning in Macedonia. They did not. They were a FORMED people, MIGRATING/INVADING a new land... They were NOT formed in this land, so as to have to go back in time to see what the Ur-Macedonian people were... And of course based on this logic, then it is simplistic to call the Athenians Greek, since they were Pelasgians mixed with Ionians... the Lacedaemonians Greek, since they were Macedonians. Dorians, so, if it is simplistic for us to call Macedonians Greek, then how can we call the Spartans such? And this would account to ANY PEOPLE OF THE WORLD... Were the Thracians Thracian? The Illyrians Illyrian? The Turks Turk? The Goths Goth? The Slavs Slav? etc etc etc etc etc... Ethnologically categorizing a people is a procedure that takes into account many aspects, apart from the question "Did they grow out of the earth or did they 4.000 years before call themselves with a different name?".

There is absolutely NO evidence that would point to them being a mixed people, apart from suggestions, based on their proximity to other cultures. But then, the Ionians were also bordering non-Greeks, so did the Syracusans etc. Were they Greek? Of course they were. There is no evidence of any "multi cultural" or "multi ethnic" Macedonian people. No ancient writer ever suggested that. And as already explained, ASSIMILATED foreigners do NOT form a "multi ethnic" community, unless they are of a totally different race (e.g. African vs Caucasian).

As for the role of the Argeads in the "atticization" of the Macedonians, again you are making huge allowances. You are talking of a time when most of the Greek world was "atticizing". You are advocating a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence. Is there any evidence that the Argeads in any way forced their people to change their speech? Did any ancient writer ever commented on how the Argeads hellenized the Macedonians? Nevertheless, Herodot explicitly states that the Macedonians hellenized the Athenians, Strattis made fun of the Greek spoken by the Macedonians and of course there is no archaeological proof that any non-Greek language was ever written by the Macedonians, be them Argeads or not... And you confuse Argeads with the Macedonians... Even if the Argeads did try to atticize their people (an assumption that by no means would mean that their language was not Hellenic), how about the rest of the Macedonian kingdoms? You see, the Argeads, were just ONE Macedonian kingdom, there were many others... Why or how were they "hellenized" or "atticized"?

As for the Argead Royal family (again NOT the Macedonian ONLY royals...), who says that the rest of the Macedonians were NOT accepted to the Olympic games? Herodot ONLY says that Alexander's case was examined AFTER some athletes accused him of being a barbarian. What does this tell us? First, that when he applied, there was no problem, which means that normally there would have been no problem... And of course there is no saying if Macedonians took part before Alexander I. They might have they might have not. You see, scientifically , we don't know if he was the first Macedonian to take part in the Olympic Games, we just know that his participation was challenged, albeit a futile act, since the Hellanodices though otherwise. What we are certain of, is that common Macedonians have contested in the ancient Olympic Games, even if their first presence is attested after Alexander I's time. You will think that the absence of any other testimonies proves that Macedonians did not take part in the games before Alexander I, but this is not so. Although this probability is of course there, if we should categorize Hellenes, according to when we have evidence that they competed in the Olympic Games, then we would have no option but to exclude most Greeks from the Greek world. What definitely can be said is that the participation itself of royal AND non royal Macedonians proves that, at least to the eyes of their contemporary Greeks, they were counted as Greeks.
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6. In addition, you would be wrong to claim that this process did not apply to other tribes. Although also disputed, some also argue that the so-called Epirotians (Chaionians, Mollosians) are Hellenized Illyrians. Even the Paeones and Thracians, which are obviously non-Hellenic, became largely Hellenized by the end of antiquity.
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Every Hellenic tribe was hellenized sometime in its past. Even the first Hellenes, whoever these might have been, have to have been "hellenized" sometime in their past. But comparing the Thracian hellenization to this of the Macedonians is impossible. As I have already stated, according to Herodot, even the Athenians were "hellenized" by the Macedonians... Yet, we are arguing over the hellenic identity of the Macedonians during a specific historical time and of course you have to understand that "hellenized" can have two meanings. 1. Cultural and linguistic and/or 2. Ethnical hellenization. There were many hellenized barbarians in the ancient past, but they still held to their non-Greek identities. Yet, the Macedonians had a both cultural/linguistic AND an ethnic hellenic identity, and these are, as you have accepted, facts difficult to disprove.

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|7. And yes, I do suspect that established and reputable scholars still need to catch up with modern thinking about ethnicity ! The old Kossinian approach to archaelogy and the concept of Volk is hard to shake off, no matter how many current social anthropologists have argued against such outdated assumptions
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...well, this is your opinion, but it seems that you want to impose an ethnicity on the ancient Macedonians rather than acknowledging their right to one. In my book, when something looks like a horse, whines like a horse, tastes like horse, other people around me tell me that it is a horse and when asked replies that it is a horse, this something is most possibly a horse... The burden of evidence falls upon the person who insists it is something else.

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|8. I leave with this quote Names of people may seem familiar after a thousand years, but the social, cultural and political realities covered by these names were radically different from what they are today. The real history of the nations of Europe begins in the 18th century. This is not deny that, in the past, people had notions of collective identity.
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... I have no problem with that unless one should use it to minimize the historical identities of given peoples.

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|9. Macedonia was initially setllted by Thracians and Ilyrian groups. This is evidenced not only by the ancients’ writings who called the lands around the Axius, the Thermic Gulf, and the HEART of the future Kingdom of Macedon as Thrace [2]. Eg Strabo ‘’Wat is now Macedonia was called in earlier times Emanthia. This territory was held by certain of the Epirotes and Illyrians,, but most of it by Bottiaeans and Thracians. The Bottiaeans, they say, were from Crete by descent (sic) and of the Thracians the Pieres occupied Piera and the area by Olympus, the Paeones that by the Axius .. the Edoni and the Bisaltae the rest of the land up to the Strymon’’ (Strabo, VII, fr. II). As for the Illyrians: ‘’the archaeological evidence is clear at Verginia and in the lower Vardar valley, they were in control from some time in the 8th century BC to c. 650 BC”. Illyrian features typical of the Glasinac culture. Similarly, evidence of Thracian remains are also abundant.
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Strabo, VII, fr 11 (XI) and not II (2) reads : ''"What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia. '''And it took its present name from Macedon, one of its early chieftains'''. And there was also a city emathia close to the sea. Now '''a part of this country''' was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, but most of it by the Bottiaei and the Thracians. '''The Bottiaei came from Crete originally, so it is said, along with Botton as chieftain.''' As for the Thracians, the Pieres inhabited Pieria and the region about Olympus; the Paeones, the region on both sides of the Axius River, which on that account is called Amphaxitis; the Edoni and Bisaltae, the rest of the country as far as the Strymon. Of these two peoples the latter are called Bisaltae alone, whereas a part of the Edoni are called Mygdones, a part Edones, and a part Sithones. '''But of all these tribes the Argeadae, as they are called, established themselves as masters, and also the Chalcidians of Euboea; for the Chalcidians of Euboea also came over to the country of the Sithones and jointly peopled about thirty cities in it, although later on the majority of them were ejected and came together into one city, Olynthus; and they were named the Thracian Chalcidians.'''"''

Do you think that after reading the original one comes to the same conclusion as when reading the text you gave? Even this (sic) part (although an erroneous use of the latin word, still its contemporary use), clearly shows that you agree with everything except for the part of any Cretans migrating there... And of course you left out the part about the Argead tribe and that of the Chalkideans. This is why I keep saying you tend to selectively use sources.

By the way further on he also claims "Pella belongs to Lower Macedonia, which the '''Bottiaei''' used to occupy; in early times the treasury of Macedonia was here. Philip enlarged it from a small city, because he was reared in it. It has a headland in what is called Lake Ludias; and it is from this lake that the Ludias River issues, and the lake itself is supplied by an offshoot of the Axius." Strabo, VII, fr 20, the people, whose existence or origin you seem to disagree with, yet use Strabo, adopting his other accounts... Anyways...Strabo, the man who said "Macedonia is of course Greece", gives at least three accounts on what lands different people ascribe to the geographical region of Macedonia in his 7th book and of course he has no trouble stating that there were barbaric tribes living there before the Macedonians, invading into Macedonia etc etc etc. Yet, he clearly differentiates between them. Thus, I agree, as I have already stated that in the past, before the Macedonians, there were other non-Greek tribes living and prospering in these very lands, but the fact remains that these were non-Macedonians and have nothing to do with them, apart from being assimilated or ousted and forced to migrate, so I fail to see any point in this.

As for your next quote, you will have to be more specific and of course always keep in mind that Greek presence in Illyria and THrace is even more evident than that, yet noone said that Illyrians were Greeks, because Greeks lived in parts of Illyria for centuries. You have to understand that trying to link different peoples because they lived close to each other is futile. There is no people in the world without someone on the other side of the border. And borders change. But until some excavation unearths a MACEDONIAN settlement with Thracian inscriptions, a MACEDONIAN settlement of an Illyrian culture, the fact remains, that Macedonians, Illyrians and Thracians were different people.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|10. Back to Strabo: he records the expansion of Macedonians not as "Macedonians” but as ‘the so-called Argeadae’. The author suggests that the homeland of the Macedones was in the mountainous area of the Olympic mountain and the Heliacmon beneath. Theucydides account (Th. II. 99) describes their expansion into the lands of their neighbours. Both Thucydides and Herodous agree that the expansion of what later became known as the Macedones was associated with a royal house, the Temenidae of Argos in the Peloponesse (clearly Greek). Yet, the lifestyle of the Macedones was one of semi-pastoralism (akin to Vlachs), different to most Greeks. Similalry, they organized themselves into ethne – clusters of small tribes- just like the non-Greek Illyrians. In turn, the Macedonian ethne was sub-composed of Orestae, Molossoi, Perrhaebi, Lycentsae and the ‘Argaeadae’, amongst others. With the possible exception of the Mollosoi, it was only the Argaedae who claimed Greek descent. And it was only the Argaedae who participated in the Olympic games. Herodotus writes that Alexander was accepted not as a Macedonnian, but as a Temenid from Argos.
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There are very few things to argue here. I will just add to your analysis.

''Thucidides II.99 "Assembling in Doberus, they prepared for descending from the heights upon Lower Macedonia, where the dominions of Perdiccas lay; for the Lyncestae, Elimiots, and other tribes more inland, though Macedonians by blood and allies and, dependents of their kindred, still have their own separate governments.The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos. This was effected by the expulsion from Pieria of the Pierians, who afterwards inhabited Phagres and other places under Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon (indeed the country between Pangaeus and the sea is still called the Pierian gulf) of the Bottiaeans, at present neighbors of the Chalcidians, from Bottia, and by the acquisition in Paeonia of a narrow strip along the river Axius extending to Pella and the sea; the district of Mygdonia, between the Axius and the Strymon, being also added by the expulsion of the Edonians. From Eordia also were driven the Eordians, most of whom perished, though a few of them still live round Physca, and the Almopians from Almopia. These Macedonians also conquered places belonging to the other tribes, which are still theirs--Anthemus, Crestonia, Bisaltia, and much of Macedonia proper. The whole is now called Macedonia, and at the time of the invasion of Sitalces, Perdiccas, Alexander's son, was the reigning king."''

So, Thucidides is very cler in that there were other Macedonian tribes, other than the Argeads, with separate governments. Again the talkis of how the Pierians were expelled from their lands, the (Cretan according to Strabo) Bottiaeans. How the Edonians were also expelled, how the Eordeans were expelled and possibly slaughtered (they perished according to Thucidides) as well as the Almopians. All this has to do with your prior arguments about the Macedonians not expelling the beaten from their hearths. So, although the most successful in military affairs Macedonians were the Argeads, there were more Macedonian tribes.

I also agree with your views regarding the lifestyle of the Macedonians. It was very akin to that of the Aetolians, the Cretans of the day and of many other Greek tribes (actually most Greek tribes, who were not considered nabal powers). I urge you to compare the lifestyle of the Macedonians to that of most Greeks and pinpoint their differences. You will easily see that most Greek states were semi pastoral. Even in Attica, most people did not live within the walls of the big cities. Do some research and write me your conclusions. The same applies to what you call "clusters of small tribes", a trend, you seem to imply foreign to Greek ways and akin to Illyrian, a clear mistake. The Athenians were divided in tribes (fylai). So were the Spartans. Both were united under a common rulership but this is not the same in the cases of the Thessalians, the Boeottians, the Acarnanians, the Cretans etc. What you describe as an "Illyrian custom" is in reality the case throughout Greece, Illyria, Thrace and most other ancient peoples including the Latins, the Celts, even the Slavs, the Mongols, the Germans etc etc etc. Then you talk about the differnt Macedonian tribes, of which the Molossoi were not a part, you claim that they might avocate Greek origin, although they definitely did (from Achilles himself) and you end up claiming that the other Macedonians did not claim Greek origin and did not take part in the Olympics... How do you know? Did Herodot claim that the Macedonians migrating north were only the Argreads? Did Thucidides call any non-Argead Macedonian tribe barbarians? How do you know that Cliton, Damasias or Lampos were Argead? Did the tetxs call them Argeads? And as far as Herodot is concerned, he is the greatest advocate of te Greekness of the Macedonians in general, not only that of Alexander I.

It is Herodot who says ''“Although the one nation nowhere yet went out, the Lacedaemonian was very much wandering. For, in the time of King Deucalion, it was settled in the land of Phthia, and in the time of Dorus, the son of Hellen, in the country under Ossa and Olympus, the so-called Histiaean. From the Histiaean, after it had been expelled by the Cadmeians, it was settled in Pindus called Macedonian (Makednon kaleomenon). Thence again it changed its place to the Dryopian land, and from the Dryopian thus it came to Peloponnesus, and was called Doric.”'' (Herodot, Book I, 56.3)> Here of course he is talking about the whole Macedonian ethnos and not just that of the Argeads. He also clearly states : ''“Now these were the nations who composed the Greek fleet. From the Peloponnese, the following- the Lacedaemonians with sixteen ships; the Corinthians with the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians with fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the Troezenians with five; and the Hermionians with three. These were Dorians and Macedonians all of them (except those from Hermione), and had emigrated last from Erineus, Pindus, and Dryopis. The Hermionians were Dryopians, of the race which Hercules and the Malians drove out of the land now called Doris. Such were the Peloponnesian nations.”'' (Herodot, VIII, 43). Here Herodot,clearly makes the connection between the Macedonians and the Peoloponesians. Is there any Greek writer who criticized Herodot for any of these claims? We have countless commentaries and critical texts against so many other Greek writers... Any comments on these claims? No.

You keep jumping to conclusions. Stop trying to support your claims by any means and research the ancients more.

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|11. The Macedonian ruling house spoke Greek and had Greek names, but “to speak Greek was not to be Greek in the 6th and 5th centuries, that was a matter of culture”. Hence until later, the Macedonians were considered non-Greek barbarians in early times. Clearly they had different customs, lifestyle and political organization to the rest of Greece.
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...Again you own opinion stretched to form an argument. You admit that the Argead House had Greek names and spoke Greek, you give some kind of a sourceless quote and you fail to add that they also claimed to be Greek, were acknowledged as being Greek, as was the case with all common Macedonians. Do you know how many thousands of named Macedonian commoners we have? Look up archives on epigraphy, signed artefacts, historical accounts. Your argument is incomplete and misguiding. Then you again clam that the Macedonians were "until later" considered non-Greek barbariasns, but you don't explain what you mean by "until later" or to who called them barbarians. You see there is absolutely NO text from before Demosthenes which even hinted at the Macedonians being barbaric. You just make a statement and present it as a fact, when in reality it is completely unsupported. About their customs, I have already commented, about their political organization I wonder... how did you draw your conclusion? Wishful thinking? Did Sparta have kings? Did Syracuse have kings? Did the Cypriot Greek cities have Kings? Some centuries before, all Greeks had kings. The first recorded according to Eusebius are the Sicyonian kings. He aslo gives us a list of the Athenian the Argives and the Corinthian kings and then those of the Macedonians, of course in a chapter about the Greeks. The thing is that you keep doing the great mistake to group all Greeks and then juxtapose then to the Macedonians. THis is a clear mistake. There are many Greek examples of a diversity in customs much more alien that the distance between Athenians and Macedonians, since I can only assume that when you are talking about Greeks you only mean the Athenians.

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|12. Notwithstanding, the archaeological record is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century. Yet this Hellenization should not be thought of as a mass migration of “Greeks” from farther south, expelling non-Greeks. Rather “Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interactions. Such (sic) interactions were probably responsible for the development of the networks of contacts which facilitated the creation of similar customs”.[3] That is, the spread of a new archaeological culture need not require the implication that anyone actually moved; given that the cohesion to a material culture by certain groups might signify the acquisition of a new, higher level of identity. This is not to deny that there wasn;t some, small-scale migrations, eg of some kind of warrior-pastoralists. Herodotus and others’ semi-legendary accounts of the Argaeaeds might well be true. However, it more accurately suggests the movement of a small, new dominant clan imposing itself on other, obviously already mixed peoples. The disappearance of the previous Illyrian and Thracian cultures does not mean that those people also disappeared, but had merely adopted, or were eclipsed by, the new dominant group of the region which aspired a Hellenic cultural identity.
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Again, you fill these pages with unsourced quotes. You keep presenting as self evident what you cannot support with arguments. "It is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century"???? Clear by whom? Are you again talking about the wider region of Macedonia? The region of which less than 25% was inhabited by Macedonians prior to the 5th century BC? The rest of this text is lacking any point or significance, since it is just a personal opinion of somone who might have or might not have presented some arguments before he dared utter it. As for the violent expulsion of the formr inhabitants of these areas, I have already commented on that by bringing forward the words of Thuidides, a source you chose to refer to. Again I have to clearly state that peoples assimilated into a culture count as members of that culture, a fact that you should keep in mind, when talking about how some villages, minor tribes etc might have been assimilated into the Macedonian, Athenian or Theban culture.

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|13. Thus it would be wrong to think of the Macedonians as a pre-formed people which existed in the depths of pre-history, an as yet unnoticed Greek people, biding their time. This is why there is no mention of Macedonians before 6th century BC. Clearly their origins are traced to the ascendency of a ruling group, or clan, which asserted authority over new peoples c. 6th century BC. Although the Teminids were Greek, the Macedonians were a mixed peoples.
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Thus, according to the literary sources we have (until you can discover new ancient texts disproving the academically acknowledged ones), the Macedonians were a pre-formed people, which existed in the depths of pre-history, as a noticed Greek people who migrated north, expelled various non-Greek tribes and claimed their lands, a branch of which later migrated south and was recorded as the Return of the Heraclidae or the Dorian Invasion, hellenized the Athenians and entered the Peloponnese, where, among others, it formed the Lacedaemonian ethnos. There is no mention of the Macedonians before the 6th century, because there are no texts originating from before the 6th century that have to do with the Greek matters. Yet, all the texts from after the 6th century, are clearly supporting that the Macedonians migrated from central Greece to their new lands long before that. Their origin have nothing to do with the ascension of the Temenids, who formed a new Macedonian kingdom among other Macedonians, who of course are also attested to have come to power long before the 6th century (another peculiar mistake on your side) and well into the 9th century BC.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. M<ine shall be forthcoming . . . [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

OK!

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 21:43, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a brief response, because that is all which time allows me. I shall write more in a few days.

Firstly, I do not refer to you, or any others, as simple, but the synthesis of the article which focuses on whether the Macedonians were Greek or not, which might be a false dichotomy.

Secondly, we cannot take the sources at face value. Although they had a reasonable general knowledge, they were certainly no experts on geography or ethnology. The stories of expulsion of peoples are hyperboles to illustrate the object of their stories more clearly. I still maintain that there was little mass population exchange. Certainly no archaeological evidence exists for this, anywhere in Europe, apart from the initial conlonization, the post-glacial re-colonization, and perhaps during the Neolithic. According to Borza, there is little evidence to convincingly show a Greek migration into the southern Macedonia.

My ‘opinion’ about how ethnic groups formed is actually the published theory of reputable scholars. You are welcome to disagree with them. Equally, I should be able to present it.
I agree with you that I should not compare Macedonians vs ‘other Greeks’, because you’re quite right in that every region had peculiarities. But this agrees with what I say, is that there is a fine line between calling the Ancient Macedonians Greek compared to stating they might have been of proto-Greek stock.
Finally, absorption or assimilation is never a one way process, no matter how ‘advanced’on culture is, or claims to be, compared to be.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 11:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

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|1. |Firstly, I do not refer to you, or any others, as simple, but the synthesis of the article which focuses on whether the Macedonians were Greek or not, which might be a false dichotomy.
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OK! People sometimes copy paste from various aggressive sources and inadvertently bring this aggression into such a discussion. I cannot tell if this was the case here, but it sometimes happens. Anyways, no harm done!

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|2. Secondly, we cannot take the sources at face value. Although they had a reasonable general knowledge, they were certainly no experts on geography or ethnology.
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Why weren't the ancient historians expert on ethnology and geography? The ancient Greeks wee particularly interested and extremely well versed in those and other fields. They traveled, checked their sources, posed self and acknowledged opinions, recorded local customs, languages... Their motus operandi is not different from their counterparts in more modern times. Anyways, they recorded what was considered to be the truth without the DNA testing. Their approach to the ethnology of peoples of their times or their recent past is much more safer to adopt than any modern ethnologist's personal opinion, which anyways is largely based on these people's writings. How can we elaborate on the ancient Athenian culture if we do not give heed to the ancient texts? Draw conclusions from archaeological remains? Archeology can with very much difficulty describe the culture of a people. Most times it is used to fill in gaps and prove (or sometimes disprove) literary evidence.

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|3. The stories of expulsion of peoples are hyperboles to illustrate the object of their stories more clearly. I still maintain that there was little mass population exchange.
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Why? Expulsion of peoples is what happened then, what happens now... actually it is much more problematic to propose a model in which aggressive invaders migrate to a place only to peacefully and lovingly live in harmony and cooperation with the people who used to rule over those lands, who used to work the lands, own and govern the various settlements... We do not live in a "global village", we live in countries and all counties, none excepted, have territorial claims on others, because sometime in the past their people were expelled from there (either forcefully or as a process of pressure). In these times, expulsions were even more common, due to the relative small area that each time was conquered. The first Macedonians settled in a very small area (according to our modern concept of country sizes). In a valley of maybe 1.000 sq. kms there simply was no room for them AND another tribe. They of course kept some as slaves or prisoners, but most were driven away to find other lands to settle. Ancient history is filled with such expulsions (although you could dispute them all saying that they are all exaggerations), starting with the expulsion of the Troans from Ilion.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|4.Certainly no archaeological evidence exists for this, anywhere in Europe, apart from the initial conlonization, the post-glacial re-colonization, and perhaps during the Neolithic. According to Borza, there is little evidence to convincingly show a Greek migration into the southern Macedonia.
|}

There is evidence in archaeology that has to do with the expulsion of peoples from their hearths, but then what would be a clear archaeological evidence? Burnt cities? There are many. Extinction of civilizations only to arise in a different place? Such instances exist also. Just think of what you are asking. Archaeology can help but it rarely can prove or disprove such theories or accounts. On the other hand just discrediting any written account from before the 20th century, because we do not agree with its content is a huge step you will find very difficult to make other people accept. As for Borza, although as a source he has been overquoted, you should better give his suggestions and be absolutely certain, that other suggestions of his will not emerge, supporting something different. As you yourself propose, Borza supports that "there is little evidence to convincingly show..". So 1. "little evidence", meaning archaeological evidence, which in this case would more look like the remnants of some thousands footsteps on some road from Dodone into Macedonia, convincingly dated between the 11th and 13th century BC, along with multiple sandal tags clearly stating that it was Macedonians migrating north to expel other peoples... What is the "evidence" of the Indoeuropean Invasion? How about the Dorian Invasion? And 2. "convincingly"... So, Borza does not, according to your words, disprove the literary evidence. He just states that there should be room for further theories. I agree with that. History is of course not static and new evidence might emerge even as to the Slavness or Greekness of the Chinese! But, you see, in order to produce a theory that will replace another theory as the prevalent academic opinion, it should itself present convincing data. Just proposing that these people didn't know their past and we do, that these people were not experts and we, 2,500 years later ,are not convincing arguments. Of course you have to know that even Borza (I could even comment on his nationality, but this would be cheap talk) admits that they possibly were a Greek tribe. He writes

'' “We have seen that the “Makedones” or “highlanders” of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis.”

E.N.Borza “In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon” (revised edition, 1992), page 78''

You see Borza is critical but not dismissive. As much as I disagree with many of his assumptions and deductions, he still navigates within academic credence and seriousness.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|5. My ‘opinion’ about how ethnic groups formed is actually the published theory of reputable scholars. You are welcome to disagree with them. Equally, I should be able to present it.
|}

Of course. But you should always keep in mind that presenting theories does not involve accusing the established theories. It falls on the less supported theories to prove themselves as more credible and probable.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|6. I agree with you that I should not compare Macedonians vs ‘other Greeks’, because you’re quite right in that every region had peculiarities. But this agrees with what I say, is that there is a fine line between calling the Ancient Macedonians Greek compared to stating they might have been of proto-Greek stock.
|}

If you read my words more carefully, you will see that I have not dismissed your argument based on the peculiarities of other Greek states' traditions. "Culture" comprises of more than burial customs. The culture of the ancient Macedonians was indeed Hellenic. Even if you disagree with that, which is your right,your conclusion is again incomplete, since, not being able to categorize a certain tradition as Greek does not mean that you can thus categorize it as non-Greek or proto-Greek or anything else. You should make your efforts based on more data.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|7. Finally, absorption or assimilation is never a one way process, no matter how ‘advanced’on culture is, or claims to be, compared to be.
|}

This is also partially correct. The Greek civilization of course through an assimilation process accepted many alien components, which eventually formed what we call Greek as well as what they called Greek. "Pelasgian Zeus" they called him. Nevertheless, an assimilation process concludes in somebody being assimilated into an alien culture. No matter how much he contributes to his assimilator, the end result cannot be renamed into something new, unless the influence was so great that resulted in a truly different outcome. The Macedonians assimilated whichever named or unnamed tribes, essentially converting them into Hellenes. This is what "hellenization" means. Should historians assume your position, then we would be unable to name, categorize and study any people, any time. Is there any civilization on earth which NEVER adopted anything from anyone? This is how civilizations develop. Acknowledging a minor contribution of an alien culture into an existing one does not bear the strength to revise this civilization's identity. On the other hand, if this contribution radically changes the characteristics of a given civilization, then such steps have been made. This is why, for example, we are talking about a Graecoroman civilization, about an Islamic Spain etc.

Cheers!

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 13:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

:The trouble with your arguements is that your ''fundamental assumpations'' are wrong, thereby your entire arguement is flawed, although your knowledge of the myths and legends is second-to-none.

:Your insistance that the ancient historians new exactly what they were talking about is incorrect. Yes, they ''did'' classify people according to some objective criteria. But these were overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets. We have seen this time & time again, such as the coining of terms ''Keltoi'', ''Germani'' and ''Sclaveni''. Eg archaeological evidence disproves that the people the Greeks name Celts shared any sense of unified identity. If the Greeks were wrong, or perhaps over-siplistic, about these, then why would they be right about the Macedonians. Ancient writers used second hand sources, added their own narrative techniques, and modified their stories to suit their own political stances. Hardly irrefutable evidence, although there were ''some'' grains of truth.

:Secondly, you have maintianed the disproven picture that the migrations of historic times were massive. As if an entire 'nation' just ups and moves down the road and kicks out its neighbours. I have already attempted to clarify for you that this is just not what happened. Only small groups of people moved, eg "martial" sectors, military elite, whatever you want to call them. They went and formed new groups, although they might well have carried their traditions & myths of theold group with them. The idea that an entire Macedonian tribe just packed up and moved north has little evidence to support it. The convincing proof of Macedon's existence starts from their time in lower Macedonia, a place which contained various cultural and linguistic groupings. Although the so-called Illyrian and Thracian material remains eventually end by the 5th century BC, this does not mean that the entire population was displaced. Whan a 'native' population is subdued, they eventually mixed in with the ruling caste, given that the natives were often numerically superior. If they had been killed off, then how would the new rulers collect their tribute, raise an army, and profit from agricultural surplasses ? You need to go and read some up to date books on this, my friend. Beleive me, it will improve the way you understand what a 'migration' is

:Finally, language is not the only marker of ethnicity. Much of the claims made by certain historians is that the Macedonians were Greek becasue they spoke Greek, or a dialect of it. Notwithstanding that even the theory that Macedonians was a Greek language is not universally accepted, Hammond wrote "''the men of the royal house certainly spoke Greek. They ''also'' spoke the language of their people, 'Macedonian', which contained words of early Greek origin but was not intelligible to contemporary Greeks. The Macedonians in general did not consider themselves Greeks, nor were they considered Greeks by their neighbours. ''
:The peoples of Macedonia remained a mixture, evidenced by their contrasting make - up compared to the 'gracile' build of Greeks. It was in Macedonia, and not in Argos, or Thessaly that the Macedonians solidified more compactly into a people.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 02:24, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|1. The trouble with your arguements is that your fundamental assumpations are wrong, thereby your entire arguement is flawed, although your knowledge of the myths and legends is second-to-none.
|}

Thank you for your kind words. As you can perfectly understand, history is a collection of assumptions. The difference between mainstream history and fringe theories is the abundance and acceptance of the existing sources. The structure of the science of history is based on probability rather than direct proof. I could be a creationist and strive to prove that all is futile since it is God that made the Earth some 8.000 years ago and provide proof from the bible on things that belief alone can explain, disproving carbon dating and asserting that our forefathers walked with the dinosaurs. In history we base our assumptions on the written sources, which we intertpret, compare, sometimes stretch in search for logic, looking for proof through archaeology. What would we know of the Romans should we a priori assume that the ancient historians were wrong? What would we know of the Macedonians themselves? You see, your fundamental assumption that the Greek historians did not know what they wrote of, your discrediting them, leaves you with absolutely no arguments about the Macedonians either. If you reject the words of Demosthenes, the passages from Arrian or Curtius Rufus which you interpret as a sign that the Macedonians spoke a non Greek dialect, if you reject the history of the Macedonians as is related by Herodot and agreed on by ALL ancient sources (since all ancient writers did agree as to the identity of the Argeads by simply calling them Temenids and Argeads, by constantly repeating and not refuting that Alexander's progenitors were indeed Hercules and Achilles, since an Aeacid), then you have nothing else but archaeology. And this is when things get even tougher, because all archaeological evidence that can be attributed to the Macedonian people is purely Greek in appearance and essence. Archaeology alone, literary sources aside, shows that there was a people which called itself Macedonian in Greek and had a distinctly Greek civilization. The assumption certain individuals make that this happens only because the Macedonians were hellenized sometime before the 5th century cannot stand on archaeology alone, since there is no evidence of the same people having a different culture. The whole structure of a non-Greek Macedonian theory is based on few, albeit existent, literary sources and disproving them creates a bigger problem to you than to Greeks. For example, if you discredit the tale about Alexander I and how other athletes disputed his Greekness, then you are only left with the certainty that Macedonians did indeed take part in the Olympics, not being able to even make assumptions as to when they started, whether only royalties took part and other theories that are used to support your theory.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. Your insistence that the ancient historians new exactly what they were talking about is incorrect. Yes, they did classify people according to some objective criteria. But these were overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets.
|}

I do not suggest that the ancients "knew exactly what they were talking about", this I cannot say even about contemporary sources, since there are so many reasons why someone might be mistaken, but in the course of 800 years, from the 6-7th century BC to the 2-3rd century AD, they have left us with an amazing collection of books, a truly astounding wealth in knowledge that has helped us shed light into history. How do we know of the Roman history if not by the same authors? How do we know of Carthage? of the Celtiberians? of Vercingetorix and Boudicca? The same people you are trying to disprove wrote about Cyrus the Great, Artaxerxes, Brennos, king Minos...History is based on them. They were living at times mostly near to what they were describing. Of course the chance that they are right is larger than any assumption I could make. And this is why their word would be heard and more easily accepted than a theory I might devise about how they said something but in reality meant something else. Or how I know that they were mistaken, basing ny arguments not on archaeology, but on my own personal, subjective logic. Noone admits everything in literary sources. It is consensus that we are trying to locate. Demosthenes did write, according to the evidence we have from medieval manuscripts of course, that Philip was a barbarian, but we are critical, since his opinion lacks acceptance by millions of pages of acknowledged Roman and Greek text. Another account talks of Alexander having horns, another of ghosts fighting along with the Greeks at Plataea, another of Gods smiting the Gauls of Brennus in Greece with lightning and earthquakes. There is a process in admitting literary evidence as proof and even there, there is room for other opinions. But these opinions have to be based on some form of evidence, be it archaeological or historical. Just wishful thinking and gross generalizations cannot stand acceptance. Calling their historical heritage “overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets” truly does not give them the credit they deserve. Do you think that modern historians or anthropologists work on a more scientific basis than these people did? The Greek, as well as the Roman, civilization was a culture with a passion to record and criticize. If it weren’t for them, we would stand in the dark concerning most matters on ancient history. To call the likes of Aristotle, Pythagoras, Archemides, Polybius, Strabo, Plato and so many others, overzealous pseudoscientists, whose words we should not study, since they bare no weight, is really a new historical approach that no historian advocates no matter how extreme his opinions might be. On the contrary, most historians who propose fringe theories BASE them on some obscure passage, new translation or interpretation, as does everybody who claims that the Macedonians were indeed no Greek tribe.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. We have seen this time & time again, such as the coining of terms Keltoi, Germani and Sclaveni. Eg archaeological evidence disproves that the people the Greeks name Celts shared any sense of unified identity. If the Greeks were wrong, or perhaps over-siplistic, about these, then why would they be right about the Macedonians. Ancient writers used second hand sources, added their own narrative techniques, and modified their stories to suit their own political stances. Hardly irrefutable evidence, although there were some grains of truth.
|}

What you are saying about the Keltoi has nothing to do with the issue of the Macedonians. First of all, you should study those writings from the writers’ perspective, not your own, or my own for that matter. Greeks categorized different people according to their understanding, but the fact that all Keltoi should be relative tribes is nothing they claimed. For example, the term Skythes was used for ALL peoples residing over Istros to the east, regardless of possible tribal or ethnic differences. The same methodology they employed with the term Keltoi, Germanoi, even with the Slavs. When they had a concrete opinion on the culture, mythology, language etc of a nation they recorded it, but they also wrote about nations they did not know much, again, clearly making that visible. There are lots of commentaries of Greek geographers criticizing the opinions and statements of their predecessors. They brought on new data, new knowledge, they traveled and studied different cultures. Their historical and anthropological analysis had nothing to envy from modern methodologies. You are mistaken if you think that they were rigid in their opinions, that they didn’t look into things with a critical eye. They just never disputed (in the thousands of surviving texts) the opinions of Herodot, the Temenid legend and generally the Greekness of the Macedonians. Maybe such texts will be discovered in the future. But until then, the discrediting theories are subjected to strong criticism, because they are based on hints such as “We know that Herodot had traveled to Thasos. So, it is very possible that he might have crossed over to Thrace, from there pass through Macedonia and there having been subject to pressure from Alexander to write about the Greekness of himself and the rest of the Macedonians". No matter how strange you find what I wrote right now, this is ACTUALLY the main argument of Badian and Borza on why we should discredit Herodot... The fact that Herodot was not in the position to influence Greek matters, the fact that NO other Greek, Greco-Roman or otherwise relevant historian EVER (always according to our knowledge) criticized his proposed genesis of the Macedonian kingdom, the fact that ALL sources refer to Alexander, Philip and all other Temenids, as Argeads or Temenids, clearly referring to their progenitors is what makes such claims sound far fetched, this is why this theory is not widely accepted. Arrian has Alexander talk to his Macedonians about THEIR progenitor (not his), Heracles. These are not Herodot’s words, yet he, as do ALL other Greco-Roman historians clearly accepts the same theories as to the genesis of the Macedonians. Again, it is your and everyone’s right to support any theories concerning any historical event. There are Greeks who support that Mohammed was a Byzantine spy, based on some texts, which imply Byzantine infiltration in 6th century Arabia. There are Greeks who support that the Romans were in reality a Greek tribe, because it is proposed by the Romans themselves in certain texts as ONE of their possible origins. What is different as to the case of the Macedonians is that there is NO other proposed theory on their emergence.
Now, as to the possibility of having it all wrong with the Macedonians is existent, albeit minimal for many reasons. First of all, they were their neighbors, so their knowledge of them was extensive. Secondly, there was never any dispute on the words of Herodot, nor on those of Hesiod or others who wrote about the origins of the Macedonians. Thirdly, the Macedonians themselves were fierce advocates of their Greekness (fierce here denoting their persistence in being included in the Greek world, culturally, linguistically etc. If they were not Greek in the 8th or 10th century BC, they truly became Greeks by choice in the later centuries, a fact even Badian, a proponent of the barbarism of the Macedonians, does NOT refute.) You see, all supporters of the non-Greekness of the Macedonians ALWAYS strive to find arguments from BEFORE the 5th century!!!! They do not dare propose that judging from evidence after that, one can have even the slightest of possibilities that the Macedonians were not Greeks. And of course you should keep in mind, that Borza does not advocate that the Macedonians were not Greeks. He is critical, but NOT dismissive, since he clearly explains that this IS the most possible theory, yet insist that other theories can also be proposed.

You also talk about the ancients using second hand sources... well, so do most of us scholars today! Yet, if you follow the methodologies of the ancients, you will soon find out that they were obsessed with primary sources and would often criticize writers for not having witnessed themselves some events or traveled to certain places. Herodot, Arrian, Xenophon, Strabo... these people were extensively traveled. they saw most things they described with their own eyes. Don’t ever assume that the ancients had a limited knowledge of the Macedonian kingdom. They had a limited knowledge on India, on Celtiberians, on Arabs but they were perfectly acquainted with anything Macedonian. Doesn’t it strike you as a little nit odd, how most writers wrote in the Hellenistic and Roman era and yet NOT ONE called the Macedonian tyrants of Greece “barbarians”? That NOT ONE ever disputed the “fairy tales” about their “self proclaimed Greekness”, about their “unsubstantiated claims” that they had anything to do with purely Greek heroes of the caliber of Achilles and Hercules? The Macedonians were not always lenient. In the times of Polybius, a statesman of the Achaean Confederacy on top of being an important historian, the Macedonians had just lost their hold over Greece... Greece was at last free!!!! Why did he, a leader of Achaeans, NEVER accuse the Macedonians of non-Greekness among all other accusations he made against Philip V or Perseus? He clearly saw Macedonians as Greeks, although he was among the tyrannized, among those freed by the Roman gladius... Dismissing his testimony, because “he must have an agenda we don’t know about” is of course your choice, but this methodology, as already explained, will leave you with NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL about any ancient matter. And archaeology is much more difficult to be used (interpreted, distorted, manipulated, explained etc etc etc) to reach any such conclusion.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|4. Secondly, you have maintianed the disproven picture that the migrations of historic times were massive. As if an entire 'nation' just ups and moves down the road and kicks out its neighbours. I have already attempted to clarify for you that this is just not what happened.
|}

You are claiming that “massive” migrations are a “disproved” fact. Why? Who says so? Don't the numerous examples from the Medieval times teach us that they have indeed been a fact in the world's history? What is the story of the Visigoths? the Ostrogoths? the Slav? The Viking? What is the story of the Greek colonies? the Roman migration to Lation? the colonization of Carthago? the Hebrew migration to Palestine, the Brygian migration to Asia Minor? And of course, how do you define “massive”? Over 10.000 people? 100.000? And when you are talking about a massive Macedonian invasion, of course you have to understand that we are talking about a really small migration in numbers. We have evidence and testimonies to migrations and invasions of hundreds of thousands, while the Macedonians, given the limited space they were assumed to have lived on, were much fewer in numbers. The Macedonians of prehistory are a small tribe, a mediocre one when compared to its neighbors. If you just study a little bit of (less documented) medieval history, you will become more acquainted with the process of migratory invasions and displacement of peoples. You claim you were displaced from Aegean Macedonia, Greeks claim they were displaced from Constantinople and Smyrna, the Cypriots claim they were displaced and their lands assumed by Turks from Anatolia, the Palestinians claim they were displaced, so do the native Americans from the massive migration of the Europeans, etc. The world's history is full of such events you choose to ignore or just set aside. We can discuss the process of the Macedonian migration, although I think that you will stick to your hypothesis that they indeed shook hands of friendship with the local owners of pastures and fields, towns and orchards and all together formed a great and prosperous civilization, something unheard of in history. No one talks about total displacements. If you read my points carefully, you will see that I am talking about a forceful invasion followed by forceful and/or peaceful assimilation, which in its own right is a different thing, allowing for "alien" DNA to permeate a given civilization, yet, leaving it relatively untouched in historical terms.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|5. Only small groups of people moved, eg "martial" sectors, military elite, whatever you want to call them. They went and formed new groups, although they might well have carried their traditions & myths of theold group with them. The idea that an entire Macedonian tribe just packed up and moved north has little evidence to support it.
|}

Now, this... I can’t make much sense of... What you propose is unheard of! When did you ever read that any “military elite” migrated away from their lands, where they were lords, to find a new people which would then “adopt” them? What you are proposing roughly resembles the colonization process that took place in ancient and medieval times, but ALWAYS, these colonies were populated by commoners of the same race, since the soldiers, the craftsmen, the traders, of course also brought along their families... Even the Macedonians themselves populated their cities in the east with Greeks, they gave incentives to attract Greek populations over to their territories (you should read about the kleirouchies), so that they can base their rule on a solid basis of a kindred ruling caste. NEVER in history, was a conquering ruling class assimilate the conquered population, unless this class really was followed by masses of kindred commoners, as seems that you suggest regarding the Macedonians. If I understand you well, you are proposing that back in prehistory there might have been some Macedonian warlord, who invaded the enemy, conquered him and then established a ruling class, which for some reason was completely cut away from its homeland, although their homeland was just a day’s march to the south. Instead of incorporating this small, neighboring land to their homeland, instead of driving the owners of those fertile valleys away and give the land to his soldiers and their families, this warlord chose to send the men back on the mountains and rule over an alien people with a force of his men, who followed him without their families. At the same time, he might or might not have ruled over his former lands but for some reason, these lands were lost to him, his people disappeared and for some reason, maybe because he was a beloved and wise conqueror, his new people, not only did not slit his throat, not only did not revolt, but they also were assimilated by him... It just doesn’t work this way... When a small tribe conquered a better land, they just assumed the former residents farmsteads, houses, towns, ports, pastures, they exploited the conquered population as workers in mines and constructions, they ransomed them, they sold them for slaves to make an extra income. It is not me that I have to procure some kind of proof here... I have accepted history on my side. I have the ancient texts relating the story as I support it. I have countless historical paradigms supporting my views. It is you, who should bring forward evidence to support your theory. Just describing these theories as “new” or “modern” bears no weight, unless you can also bring evidence and of course present the extent of its support. As for evidence of a Macedonian migration, again it is up to you to bring evidence that it did not happen, not the opposite way around. There is much to suggest that migrations happened in the region, much to suggest that there was forceful expulsion and conquest, yet no videotape has yet been found to conclusively prove that sometime in prehistory, a people called Macedonians invaded the area. Can any archaeological find ALONE prove to us that Genghis Khan ever invaded Europe? Any archaeological finding that can conclusively prove that the Triballi were not indeed the ancestors of the Athenians? You are disregarding concrete archaeological evidence that the Macedonians had a purely Greek culture, yet you demand to be shown concrete archaeological evidence that a historically minor migration of a tribe took place sometime in the unrecorded prehistory. Well... we have evidence of a number of forceful events, maybe one of those has to do with the Macedonians. What is most important is the archaeological continuance of Macedonian presence well into an era when they themselves could document their Greek culture. What can be proven through archaeology is that nobody forced the Macedonians to be Greeks. They were Greeks in a time when most that had to do with the Greek culture did not yet exist! They were a clear part of the genesis of what we call Hellenic Civilization and they were the major medium, through which it spread to the world.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|6. The convincing proof of Macedon's existence starts from their time in lower Macedonia, a place which contained various cultural and linguistic groupings. Although the so-called Illyrian and Thracian material remains eventually end by the 5th century BC, this does not mean that the entire population was displaced. Whan a 'native' population is subdued, they eventually mixed in with the ruling caste, given that the natives were often numerically superior. If they had been killed off, then how would the new rulers collect their tribute, raise an army, and profit from agricultural surplasses ? You need to go and read some up to date books on this, my friend. Beleive me, it will improve the way you understand what a 'migration' is
|}

What does anything of that have to do with the Macedonians? What if there were other tongues spoken in Lower Macedonia? First of all, let me use your own arguments... How do you know that those people did not all talk Greek? How do you know that the Illyrians did not talk in Greek? Can it be because ANCIENT GREEKS SAID SO? So was the case with the Greek states of Ionia, of Magna Graecia, of Euxinus Pontus, of Marmarica, Gaul and Iberia... So? What does the total displacement of any populations have to do with the Macedonians? They were no multiethnic state... they didn’t even use to mix with Macedonians from other Macedonian states (they did, but it was not commonplace)! If some peoples or remnants thereof were assimilated into their civilization, as did happen in ALL ancient civilizations (again, Themistocles’ and Demosthenes' mothers were barbarians, did that make them less Greek, or does that give the right to the Ukrainians to demand Athenian history?), so what? Or do you suggest that from now on we should stop using ANY ETHNIC DETERMINATION, even regarding modern nations, just because no nation is pure? Should we stop differentiating between cultures too? What you are suggesting is that there were NO MACEDONIANS, and as such no one has the right to claim the history or descendance of a people that never existed as a people. You describe them as self deluded people whose testimonies we should not take seriously, whose self determination we should reject, just because they were not genetically pure... This is also the case with Romans, Goths, Persians, all Greeks, Carthaginians, Celtiberians, Gauls, Mongols, Indians, Chinese... Should we just abandon all onomatology? Should we claim that all people can claim any history and descendance, since we either descend from Adam or from Lucy? What you are supporting cannot stand and has nothing to do with any migratory theories, it has just to do with an unwillingness to accept that regardless of purity, people in the past had an ethnic consciousness, a history, a language, a culture. As for studying "new" bibliography, I am always open, but you (again) have provided none. So, point me to the bibliography which links any migratory theories to the deprivation of the right to have certain unique identity and I promise you that I will look into it. You see, even if you understand what a “migration” is, you seem to fail to understand the process of assimilation and identity development. Can you name me ONE people who did not conquer other peoples in its entire history? To insist that this is a reason, why we should refute any identity this people developed in its history, is a really novel and interesting way to perceive history.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|7. Finally, language is not the only marker of ethnicity. Much of the claims made by certain historians is that the Macedonians were Greek becasue they spoke Greek, or a dialect of it. Notwithstanding that even the theory that Macedonians was a Greek language is not universally accepted, Hammond wrote "the men of the royal house certainly spoke Greek. They also spoke the language of their people, 'Macedonian', which contained words of early Greek origin but was not intelligible to contemporary Greeks. The Macedonians in general did not consider themselves Greeks, nor were they considered Greeks by their neighbours.
|}

Of course not! Although it is a huge factor.... Actually most claims that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe are based on anything BUT that! On the other hand, this is the ONLY argument of those who insist that the Macedonians were not Greeks! The whole argumentation of the deniers of the Greekness of the Macedonians is based on the possibility (however distant, as its proponents themselves admit) that the Macedonians did not speak Greek before the 6th century BC! Their culture is completely Greek! Their religion, their mythology, their art, their military institutions (do you know they had hoplites before Philip introduced the sarissa?), their perception of the world, their feelings of kinship towards the other Greeks in relation to the rest of the "barbarian" world! As I have told you, details in cultural elements, such as wedding or burial customs always include peculiarities, but their culture as a whole is classified as purely Greek. And of course, you should know better than to quote Hammond, who explicitly considers the Macedonians Greek. Maybe you should read more of his books, especially the latest ones...

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|8. The peoples of Macedonia remained a mixture, evidenced by their contrasting make - up compared to the 'gracile' build of Greeks. It was in Macedonia, and not in Argos, or Thessaly that the Macedonians solidified more compactly into a people.
|}

What mixture? What contrasting make-up? Where did you find any evidence to that? Did you find ANY ancient who claimed that the Macedonian culture was "multiethnic"? Actually the cities of Athens, Corinth, Syracuse and Hallicarnassus were much more multiethnic than any Macedonian city. It does not matter where the Macedonians solidified as a people... what matters is that they boasted a Hellenic identity, a fact which cannot be refuted, however you mask it behind arguments about “political agendas”, “cultural admiration”, “unscholarly misquotes” or “lies”! Seriously now.... apart from thinking it possible yourself, where did you come across any mentioning of a multicultural Macedonia, where every ethnicity was free to express its identity? Don't mix up current situation in FYROM with ancient Macedonia... there were no "Illyrian Macedonians", “Thracian Macedonians" or “Greek Macedonians” cohabiting Pella in perfect harmony with the “ethnic Macedonians”...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 18:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not proposing that literary sources are useless, merely that we should not interpret them at face-value. What you say is correct, that the evidence suggests that the Macedonians Royal house aspired a Greek identity, whether this was due to actual lineage, a political ploy or to prove their sophistication. What I am suggesting that needs to be improved in the article is the fact that at the moment it reads like a "Greek or not" debate. I propose that that the issue is more complex than that. The 'migration' spoken of by ancient historians could be an illustrative, yet simplified, account of how hellenic culture spread to Macedonia, and spawned the people of macedonia. The tale of Argos, etc, is illustrative. Just like that tale of Goths migrating from Gotium to Scythia. It is not my imagination, nor a 'fringe thoery' . Although I must admit that the quotes i am about to give are not specific to macedonians, they illustrate the general concensus of ''current'' archaeologists, linguists and pre-historians about the spread of peoples.

''Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interaction, where contact between neighbouring and plitically independent communities proved influential for the devevlopment of customs and beliefs". Renfrew . ''Archaeology and Language''.

About Macedonians speaking Greek. ''Different ethnic groups can speak the same langauge''. Pg 216

"there was no need to explain culture change exclusively in terms of migration and population replacement"<ref> From Roman Provinces to Medieval Kingdoms. Archaeologists and Migrations. Pg 264</ref>. "Ethnic spreads can involve either the spread of a language to speakers of other languages or the spread of a population. '''Massive population spread or demographic replacement has probably been a rarity in human history'''"

The other question which remains is did the rest of Macedonia see itself as Hellenistic. In all probabilty, we cannot answer this question because we have little to no evidence. You doubt that the Macedonians were multi-ethnic. Ok. But the identity which the leading elite portrays does not equal that of the common peoples. This does not mean that people lived in a utopian fairy land, there were subject, slaves and rulers. But to state that a Greek people called Macedonians moved and planted themselves in lower Macedonia, as you might see, does not fit in with todays thinking about ethnogenesis.

Lastly, what was "Greek" in the 5th century BC? Greece began in the 19th century. Acribing to membership in the Greek world need not have implied being an ethnic Greek, but to have been part of the civilized world, not a ''barbarian''. Just like becoming a Christian state, or people, allowed access to the sophisticated diplomatic community of medieval Europe. To call the Macedonians Greek risks anacrhonism. The term "Greek", by its modern meaning, is a different thing to having part of the Hellenistic civilisation of Classical times. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

== This entry is very problematic - Ancient Macedonians were ethnically much closer to Illyrians ==

I have just read the first paragraph (and only the first) of this entry on Ancient Macedonians and I have found couple of mistakes.

Let me quote from it "Whether they were of ultimately Greek origin themselves or were later Hellenized continues to be debated by some scholars, but most of them advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin."

This is not true - Ancient Macedonians were ethnically much closer to Illyrians - see some work of czech historian Antonín Bartoněk (for example his book - Odysseové na mořích historie - where it explicitly states this)

And other problematic part for encyclopedic entry is the following "..and Macedonians competed in the ancient Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only men of Greek origin were allowed to participate."

That is demagoguery, maybe even borderline propaganda. Macedonians were not allowed to compete on Olympic Games until Philip II of Macedon subdued ancient Greeks/Hellenes and enforced this privilege for Macedonians. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/90.178.190.222|90.178.190.222]] ([[User talk:90.178.190.222|talk]]) 11:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 

:Your comment doesnt make sense. The quote you provided refers to the debate between the vast majority of scholars and you stick to the perception of a single one. Honestly this Czech historian is not even noteworthy and certainly not one of the leading authorities among scholars in relation to ancient Macedonian history. There is no ancient literary account verifying your assumption "ethnically much closer to Illyrians". If anything ancient sources always described them as two distinct, hostile people. Since there were Macedonians who participated in Olympics prior to Philip's era obviously your accusations about "demagoguery" and "borderline propaganda" are rather clumsy. [[User:Johnaldinho|Johnaldinho]] ([[User talk:Johnaldinho|talk]]) 19:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

So you have counted opinions of all scholars dealing with this issue, and you are absolutely 100% positive that majority consensus is that Macedonians were of Greek origin? That is nonsense my friend. I have no stack in this as I am czech, but I see that you are greek so it may be difficult for you to look objectively on this issue. BTW: that author surely is worthy of mentioning, he is quite authority on this field - he is classical philologist - So he has good insight into this - in that book he is dealing also with differences in languages used by Ancient Macedonians and their Greek neighbors (BTW: do you know what was the macedonian form of the name of Philip II of Macedon? (Hint: no it surely wasnt Phillippos - and in this you can find one of the many Macedonian-Illyrian connection). Among other universities Bartonek lectured even on Cambridge. (Albeit his main expertise is Mykenology - I will give you that)

About Macedonians who participated in Olympics prior to Philip's era - being intellectually disshonest again? Let me ask you this way - were regular Macedonians allowed to compete on Olympics, before Phillip's conquest? No they were not. There might have been some exceptions, like is the case with some Thracians. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/90.178.190.222|90.178.190.222]] ([[User talk:90.178.190.222|talk]]) 12:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC) 

First of all, you should make an account. Discussing with IPs is always a little bit awkward and sometimes used by existed users to push their opinions. Then you can search the already lengthy articles that address these issues in detail. Going again and again over the same discussions is a little bit tiresome. Yet, if you cannot find an answer regarding your objections, I will compile you one. Lastly, look for more sources, since trying to persuade a schooled crowd of the prominence of a fringe theory is impossible. First you have to be able to prove that what you are advocating is no fringe theory but a widely accepted alternative. Last, but no least, be ready to support your claims. An argument such as "regular Macedonians were not allowed to compete on Olympics before Phillip's conquest" will be questioned and you will have to provide for. So, find one ancient source which proposes that and you may have a case. Present a modern historian who proposes that and you have an easilly disputed theory. Anyways.. if you want to make a case, compile your sources, look in our prior discussions for answer and then we can get down to it. By the way... since you are a Czech, why are your only 3 contributions in this discussion page? (no disrespect meant, only to show you how easy it is for your motives to be questioned) [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 14:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

== Olympic Games ==

I am removing the statement that only Greeks were allowed to compete in the Olympic games because many competetors were NON-Greeks, including Romans, Macedonians, Thracians, and Armenians:
* Tiberius (steerer of a four-horse chariot)[15]
* Nero (steerer of a ten-horse chariot)
* Varastades, Prince and future King of Armenia, (last known Ancient Olympic victor (boxing) during the 291st Olympic Games in the fourth century.
[[User:Mactruth|Mactruth]] ([[User talk:Mactruth|talk]]) 05:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

:That was much much later, after the Roman conquest (146 BC). Originally, only Greeks were allowed to compete. The sources also tell us that the kings of Macedon were allowed to compete as far back as the 5th century BC. What are you trying to do here? Do you think it's not obvious? --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 06:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Precedence and weasel words==

As the article is about '''Ancient''' Macedonians and modern research is based on '''ancient''' material, why "modern discussions" section takes precedence over the original ancient sources? Also, as per [[WP:AWW]], the use of "some people say" is discouraged. The bits about "some scholars" debating their identity, need work. They give the wrong impression. '''Most''' scholars (practically all of them) do not debate on this. In addition, theories of people like Eugene Borza have been disproved (many works by him, are dated '''before''' [[Manolis Andronikos|Andronikos]]' discovery of Philip II's tomb) and are not accepted by the vast majority of the scientific community. He is not even a serious scholar, by any standards ([http://scholar.google.gr/scholar?as_q=&num=20&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=Eugene+Borza&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=some&as_subj=soc&hl=en&lr=&safe=off example]) and he retired. I'll give some time to debate on this and then we'll decide on how to proceed with '''needful''' changes. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 22:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
:Adding [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza this] bit by Borza, since his statements or "statements" are conflicting. '''The "highlanders" or "Makedones" of the mountainous regions of western Macedonia are derived from northwest Greek stock [...] the origin of the Macedonians lies in the pool of proto-Greek speakers [...]'''. Again, I'm not editing anything right now; I'll wait for others to comment on this.[[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 01:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
::Just a friendly reminder. This will be edited soon. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 01:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Your summary of Borza, as so often, confused the concepts of "being Greek" and "being of (proto-)Greek stock". Read more closely: only for a nationalist ethnic essentialist would these two concepts mean the same thing. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:Just a friendly reminder: you've been told repeatedly to watch your language and others above me take notes. You certainly have a thing going on, with people not in agreement with your POV. Wikipedia is not anyone's personal playground. FYI, Borza's hypotheses before and after Andronikos' discoveries, are conflicting and in due time, this is going to be demonstrated here, with academic references. As for the statement, try not to distort everything by misquoting, in order to prove your POV. "Greek stock" is about the origins of the people. "Proto-Greek speakers" is a language pool with people from different stock (that were eventually hellenized). To illustrate this, several Africans belong in the french language pool, but they're not French. Stock is the walking, language is the talking. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:Let's not play word games. You [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAncient_Macedonians&diff=287266270&oldid=287234123 changed] "do" with "would", after my response. Rephrasing changes everything. If this was a honest mistake from your side, I accept it. Nevertheless, I hope we clarified things about stock and language, walking and talking :) [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 15:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:: Well, call it a clarification. I don't know if you think in essentialist terms (many people do, without being aware of it); if you don't, then you probably just weren't reading the Borza passage very carefully. Apart from that, no, I don't think we have clarified the issue; you apparently still don't understand the point. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 15:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Interesting. Well, I'll assume good faith. But you're right, we haven't clarified the issue as you don't seem to understand the humongous difference between stock and language.[[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 16:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

::::Yaoza, yaoza '''FPatS''' (can I call you Fpats for short?), how many times '''did''' SQRT...etc summarise Borza? Was it really ''''so''' often'? And is he really a nationalist ethnic essentialis? Otherwise, you are batting on a sticky wicket dear chap, your above comment makes <s>little</s> no sense. And SQRT...etc, I am sure changing 'do' with 'would' was just a friedly geasture, nah, probably not :-( [[User:Politis|Politis]] ([[User talk:Politis|talk]]) 16:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT5P1D2... your personal opinion doesn't matter, so don't waste space writing it. The fact that modern Balkanologists frequently use him as a source would in any case discredit your opinion [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 14:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
:I took the liberty to correct my nickname. I hope you don't mind. As for the rest: indulge us. [http://scholar.google.gr/scholar?as_q=eugene+borza&num=20&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=1993&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=some&as_subj=soc&hl=en&lr=&safe=off Here] are Google Scholar's results after 1993 (the official recognition of the state with the provisional name FYROM). The results include him as an author, as well as citations. There are 65 results, some of them irrelevant. I don't see any huge ''modern'' following. If you want more analysis, use [http://www.thomsonreuters.com/products_services/scientific/Arts_Humanities_Citation_Index AHCI] and surprise yourself about Borza's impact. He's nothing more than a fringe historian. That's not what I think, but what the academic community thinks. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 18:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT5P1D2... Eugene Borza is not "fringe", as much as you would like him to be. The new book, just out... "Macedonian Legacies: Studies in Ancient Macedonian History and Culture in Honor of Eugene N. Borza" might be a clue for you. Included are articles by Anson, Carney, Burstien, and Paglia amongst others. It behooves you to counter his views rather dismiss him as fringe, because he does not bolster your POV. My university professors, as well as most other courses that touch on ancient Macedon would be surprised to hear he is considered fringe. Thank you. Gingervlad--[[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 17:08, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

:well put. Not to mention that SQRT5P1D2 based his claim on a "Google search". Doesn't even warrant discussion [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
::Hello and sorry for not responding earlier, as I was abroad. The "fringe" is what the academic community now thinks. His influence is marginal and his controversial, conflicting newer claims (surprisingly, there is a shifting pattern during the last two decades, despite evidence to the contrary) are repeatedly disproved. Regarding the "Google" thing, Google '''Scholar''' is public. If someone wants more information and has access, the Arts and Humanities Citiation Index is [http://www.thomsonreuters.com/products_services/scientific/Arts_Humanities_Citation_Index here].
::About points of view and arguing, as I'm involved in the Macedonia 2 arbitration case, I restricted myself from editing Macedonia-related articles. As this case enters the resolution phase, you can expect much more involvement from my part. Some drafts are already being made, with numerous past and present academic references. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT, again it is you that needs to show that Borza is considered fringe by those who work and study in his field of expertise. Please demonstrate where his influence is marginal and by whom? I did post on the Borza talk page with examples showing that he IS widely regarded. What evidence has been repeatedly disproved and by whom? What are the controversial new claims? Are you talking about the dating of Tomb II? Where has that been disproved? If you are going to say he is marginal and controversial (in the international community) it is on you to show this. Simply saying it does not make it so. And for comparison, Hammond could have the same thing said about him...but I never would. His contributions have been monumental. Where he is incorrect in his assessments, or there is disagreement..it doesn't require stating that he's "fringe". The same respect should be given to Borza. And as I pointed out, he is getting it in the form of the festschrift.

It is extremely unfortunate for him that some on the hypernationalist competing Macedonia websites (who can tell them apart doing a web search...until clicking them, one finds that they fall on either side of the ridiculous situation) have appropriated his work and misused it..it put a target on his back for the other side of the ridiculous situation to go after. Sadly I have watched this for a number of years. And I see it here.

AS I said, the academic community I know certainly does NOT consider Borza fringe. A google search does not show any "fringe" tendencies. Rather, if you want him dismissed as "fringe"..you need to show actual members of the academic community calling him so. I realise that you are in the midst of the arbtiration. But when it is over, you really must "show your work". This has pulled me out of long and dispirited lurking mode. gingervlad. [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 14:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:Hello Gingervlad. Of course, when the case is over and we have established guidelines, I'll focus on the articles. For now, just to keep you interested in Borza and his newer claims, you can read these [http://macedonia-evidence.org/identity.html] [http://macedonia-evidence.org/macedonian-tongue.html]. Spicing it up a bit, [http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html here's] a recent list with more than 200 scholars, speaking with one voice. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 23:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Borza is not fringe, yet Borza does admit that the predominant theory about the origin of the ancient Macedonians is that they were of Greek stock. He just proposes that other theories (as always history is naught but a collection of educated theories) cannot be easily eliminated, as do we here in Wikipedia. Nevertheless, probability is the key point here, since as far as theories (better supported than the one that has the Macedonians not speaking Greek before the 5th century BC) are concerned the Romans were also of Greek stock and the Athenians were hellenized barbarians (since there is yet another controversy as to whether the Pelasgians were of Greek stock or not). Other theories have a Cretan clan having migrated to Macedonia even before the Macedonians, the Thracians being of proto-Greek stock (although clearly described in the ancient texts as barbarians), the Illyrians having been completely eliminated by late antiquity, Egyptian and Phoenician migrations taking place in prehistoric Greece, the Greek alphabet being derived from the Phoenician one, the Phoenician alphabet being derived from the Greek one, the civilization of Knossos being non-Greek, the civilization of Knossos being definitely Greek, etc etc etc etc... Please, stop using Borza as a source which provides a definite conclusion, for you all know that he does not, so this whole conversation is pointless. Borza stands for none of the above POVs. His theories are considered possible, yet the probability of the Macedonians not being of Greek stock low, albeit existent... [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 17:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:Allow me a correction: his ''newer'' theories, are not considered possible, especially in the light of more recent archaeological findings. Stating the greekness of ancient Macedonians in his older works, is stating the obvious. For a preview, I suggested these [http://macedonia-evidence.org/identity.html] [http://macedonia-evidence.org/macedonian-tongue.html] in my above comment. I understand that he was a favorite of the Slavic side, until they read [http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Il3C_PAhgz0/SW3LzMFk9mI/AAAAAAAAAmQ/RJyicXqgV3E/s400/borza3.jpg this]. Some are still blissfully unaware of it and they keep mentioning him as a credible source. They are also unaware of Alexander's victory in Granicus ("Alexander, the son of Philip and the Greeks..."), which ends every discussion. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 23:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

:SQRT..what newer theories..and how are they considered not possible? As for dragging the modern situation into a talk page about history millennia old..this is precisely what shouldn't be done. It is neither here nor there in regards to this. If one of your counterparts from "the other side" were to post something in the same vein, I would call them on it as well. Again, though, I ask you to actually name the "newer" theories before you dismiss them and the new discoveries that render whatever the newer theories are. As for the Macedonia-evidence site, sadly, once again, a specific agenda driven site rehashing the same tired argument about the MODERN situation showing us that, yes, the modern nation of Macedonia is doing something (and perhaps that link and your discussion about modern Slavs belongs in the article about the modern nation of Macedonia...why is that here on the talk page of "Ancient Macedonians"? The letter from the scholars is great and the articles from Hatzopoulos from 1999 and 2002 are nice to read again, but what does that have to do with information for 2500 =/- years ago? Seriously..., in regards to this article, who cares! Your comment certainly renders your neutrality moot.

:: (edited to fix paragraph) I've no horse in that race. I'm not a Slav. Nor a Greek. Just someone who finds the ancient Macedonians and the Hellenistic period interesting. Again, though, it isn't sufficient to simply state something vague and then throw up yet another link to yet another website about a modern pi***ng match. Sorry if that seems rude, however, your problem with Borza seems to be that his work has been appropriated by your "enemy". If there is some Illyrian or Thracian mix in the ethnogenesis of the Macedonians, why does this threaten you? It would make perfect sense that a proto-Greek population in close proximity would also absorb some influence from it's northern neighbours.
::Are you are talking about his, and others, as well, view on the occupants of Tomb II? gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 00:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:::I thought about not granting this comment with a response, due to rudeness and jumping to conclusions ("information from 2,500 years ago", "pissing match", "enemy", "threaten"). But it would be rude not to respond.
:::Anyway, scholars in History and Archaeology work with information from ancient times. If you are aware of a different working method, please enlighten us. The ''real'' test of an academic is ''how'' to collect bits of information and present a valid theory. Theories can be proved and disproved. Acceptance by other members of the academic community, shows one's ''impact''. This is not a vague concept: there are tools to measure one's impact. When your low-probability (so to speak of) non-consistent theories are disproved and have marginal impact on other scholars of our era, that's ''fringe''. Poor choice of a word? Don't like the word? Substitute with a synonym.
:::If you do have any counter-arguments after reading Hatzopoulos' articles (mentioning Borza's newer claims, since he took a U-turn in some matters during the last two-three decades), please present them here. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

::::SQRT, I agree THIS article should deal with information +/-2500 years ago. Which is why I object to your bringing the modern politics into it, which you have with that whole link. There were no Slavs, no Greek national government. You misread my point. We should ONLY be dealing with information that addresses those 2500 years ago. As for my rude words. Apologies for you taking that personally. After all this discussions in the arbitration I would think you would understand why this would be objectionable in an ancient context, where none of this ever existed..and introducing it only further serves to drag this article into it. There shouldn't even be a mention of the Slavic people on this page. Nor should the misappropriation of Borza by them (or ANY scholar by either side) be an issue. It has NOTHING to do with it, in this context. If you have other links that don't involve the modern conflict that is great. Hatzopoulos is an extremely good source (though not the only one). A POV site should not be, though that one will be interesting to watch if scholars other than Miller contribute. It is his site, he owns the domain. Who is behind it and why don't they identify themselves? Do you understand what I am saying here? I would say the exact same thing to anyone who pushed a pro-ROM (for your clarity), Albanian, Bulgarian, etc, etc...they just are not as pervasive. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 16:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

GK1973. A fair assessment of Borza. And much more productive. This kind of post can lead to a better consensus than outright dismissal. Thank you. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 19:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

So as not to be misunderstood... SQRT5P1D2, Borza accepts that the probability of the Macedonians being essentially Greeks (not just proto-Greeks) is much higher than any other alternative he proposes. He even says that would it be possible to establish the exact form of the Macedonian speech before the 5th century, it would be much easier to come to a definite conclusion (modern findings already point at Greek here too...). The other alternative he proposes, he mostly uses to cover the possibility of Herodotus' account of the Macedonian invasion to be false or misunderstood. Most scholars nowadays are firm in their belief that the Macedonians spoke Greek and were as Greek as the Thessalians or the Thebans (most have to understand here that all this fuss about the Macedonians being different because of their governmental system or the rural, pastoral society is pointless, since kingship is not alien to Greek matters of the time, especially to Dorian-Macedonian (according to Herodot) states and that most Greek states of the Greek peninsula were pastoral and NOT maritime). Yet, alternative theories such as Borza's do exist and are NOT considered fringe but of a very low probability to depict the actual truth. It is true that these theories were much more widespread before the mid 20th century, when archaeology in the region was not yet as developed as it is today. Most scholars did not have access to all the classical texts we have today, so they missed much of our ability to compare and juxtapose a huge collection of ancient (seemingly relevant or irrelevant) texts, so as to arrive to safer conclusions. It is very easy to misunderstand (and mistranslate) ancient Greek texts, if you try to do the job based on nowadays English, Greek or any other way of expression, especially when it comes to matters of "ethnicity", "language", "affiliation" etc. Anyways... as I have already mentioned, history is a collection of theories, not axioms, and we strive to categorize them by probability. Archaeology sometimes helps, sometimes even makes things more difficult. Being absolute is most times a mistake, yet on the other hand, giving too much credence or weight on low probability theories is also a mistake. As you can see, I am also a strong proponent of the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians, yet attacking Borza or blindly refusing even the remote probability of alternative theories to be (even partially) correct is not to my liking. They are based on a centuries old bibliography which denotes some existent weaknesses in the primary sources. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 10:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:Great. But we're talking about a living person. He also has access to research and evidence from the last three decades. His current scientific impact is minimal. His current views are marginal. His theories are disproved. Low probability? Alternative? Your choice of words. I prefer to be blunt about this person's work (NOT about the person). Read also my comment above. Also, if you read greek, get "Philologos" issues 134 and 135. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

We actually agree in essence. I just disagree with your calling Borza fringe. Alternative theories are not always fringe, nor is the one that the ancient Macedonians MAY have been non-Greeks hellenized sometime between the 9th and the 6th century BC. Do not forget that according to Herodot the Athenians were barbarians hellenized by the Macedonians, during the so-called Dorian invasion (According to Herodot, Pelasgians were barbarians). Does this make Athenians less Greek? Or should we find a Greek "Lucy", an ancestor to every Greek there ever was? Borza does not dispute the Hellenic identity of the Macedonians in the historic years of Greek antiquity, he is talking about times we and he, unfortunately, know very little about. What I am trying to say is that not being included in the Danaoi of the 12th century BC does not exclude someone from the Greek world in the 6th century BC. Macedonians were certainly a Greek people AT LEAST since the 6th century BC (according to archaeological finds and supporting literature). Yet, we cannot tell what was the case before that. According to myth the Macedonians moved to the area sometime in the 9th or 10th century BC, yet the area (of early Macedonia) was inhabited long before that from peoples we cannot really identify and conclusively categorize. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:Excellent points, again, GK1973. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 16:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

'And for comparison, Hammond could have the same thing said about him...but I never would. His contributions have been monumental. Where he is incorrect in his assessments, or there is disagreement..it doesn't require stating that he's "fringe" - Gingervlad

Ah but you're too late! This has already happened but for a different reason, of course: Hammond's argument that the Macedonians were Greek-speaking. And no no no, don't think you can slip away so easily just because you're an "outsider"! We've had "neutrals" tell us that really, O. Masson "isn't that great" because the "Greek character of the Macedonian onomasticon is obvious" to him. It's somewhat close to insanity, isn't it? One envisages articles in such areas (Macedonia is, unfortunately, not the only one) that would please most, if not all, editors. ;P [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 00:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

==Tag==

''This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please improve this article if you can. (May 2009)''

I agree with whoever placed this. I have been trying to improve this article for some time. I propose that we integrate the 'ancient sources' and modern theories. There is no need to present them seperately. They can be combined into a common thesis.

Secondly, let's stop trying to prove and disprove things. Specifically, regarding the origins, the section should start off with the most commonly accepted current theories, mention supposed geographic origins, as well as presumed ethnic and linguistic background of the makedones and the regions as a whole. Then we should add clarifiers and caveats to the above theories as expressed by mainstream authors. Just present the info, and leave it at that (rather than trying to enforce our own conclusions onto the article and readers). [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 23:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks, I added the tag for reasons I hope are obvious; you missed the addition during the "embargo", which was unfortunately a necessary one for [[WP:SYNTH]] reasons. ;). [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 00:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Ancient Macedonians

2009-05-22T00:43:07Z

3rdAlcove:

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==Non-Hellenic words?==
find me a ancient macedonian word with a non-hellenic etymology. I challenge everyone to bring it on the discussion group.—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:86.133.162.45|86.133.162.45]] ([[User talk:86.133.162.45|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/86.133.162.45|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.

...ooooh....a challenge....sort of like arm-wrestling. very macho. Actually, there apparently are a number of Macedonian words that don't have clear "hellenic etymologies", but these can be viewed as loanwords from another people, so your challenge is irrelevant, and would not prove anything pro or con. good luck finding another earth-shattering challenge. In the meanwhile, try to use this talk page to discuss changes to the article's content.—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:69.228.53.144|69.228.53.144]] ([[User talk:69.228.53.144|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/69.228.53.144|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}| {{{2}}}|}}.

noone can find anything non-Hellenic about Macedonians. [[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 08:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

==Ancient Macedonians were an Ancient Greek Tribe. period.==

This article has been vandalized. You delete ancient sources. You block ancient and modern historical and linguistic knowledge. This is disgusting. Ancient Macedonians were Hellenes like [[Molossians]], [[Chaonians]], Thesprotians, [[Spartans]], [[Athenians]] etc. are you guys allergic to truth?
for tribes like Molossians and Chaonians it's ok to put "[[Molossians]] were an Ancient Greek tribe", but for the Macedonians it is not?
there are hundreds upon hundreds of ancient writings of Macedonians calling themselves Greek, Greeks calling Macedonians Greek, Persians and other foreigners calling the macedonians Greek.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia do you have proof and sources against that?
If you disagree with this fact that Ancient Macedonians considered themselves Greeks(or Hellenes),
bring your arguments and sources or silence forever.
If there is not doubt about whether ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe why is this article not like any other ancient Greek tribe article? it should be like this: "The Ancient Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient Greek tribe who inhabited..."
if there is no evidence against it except propaganda, why not let the people know the truth? that is the way that it should be "Greek tribe". Ask any Historian. look at modern and ancient Historians: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Macedonia
see it for yourself , crosscheck it and tell the whole truth.
[[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 08:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree this is disgusting this is suppossed to be an encyclopedia.Respect facts and sources,if you disagree with something show some facts and arguments and let us discuss [[User:Wrcrack|Wrcrack]] ([[User talk:Wrcrack|talk]]) 07:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

==Another example of FYROM double standards==
How typical from our northern neigbours. When you refer to yourselves, you demand that everybody calls you Macedonian because that's what you call yourselves. But when you refer to the Ancient Macedonians, who SELF IDENTIFIED as Greeks, we have to sit and listen to what you (or some propaganda sources of yours) say about them. There is a Greek saying (from the Greek shadow puppet theater of [[Karagiozis]]) that goes: "Mine is mine and yours is mine". --
[[User_talk:Avg|   Avg   ]] 02:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
*Ancient Macedonans that self identified as Greeks?? Where did you get that idea from? I have never heard it. --[[User:Bjankuloski06en|B. Jankuloski]] 23:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

: Well, B. Jankuloski, here are a few quotes from famous ancient Macedonians which (unfortunately, for obvious reasons) they don't teach you:

[[Alexander I of Macedon]], king of Macedon from 498 BCE to 454 BCE:
{{quotation|Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably. (''Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.20.4, Loeb'')}}

{{quotation|Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Greece; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Greece change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Greece in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian. (''From the speech of Alexander I of Macedon when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, "Histories", 9.45'')}}

[[Alexander the Great]], king of Macedon, 356 BCE - 323 BCE:
{{quotation|Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you... (''Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in "Anabasis Alexandri" by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 14, 4'')}}

{{quotation|Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions. (''Addressing the dead Greeks of the Battle of Chaeronea, as quoted in “Historiae Alexandri Magni” by Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus.'')}}

{{quotation|If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, bands follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus. (''Plutarch, "Moralia: On the Fortune of Alexander", I, 332a-b'')}}

{{quotation|Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Greek Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Greek peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians. (''Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.15.1-4'')}}

{{quotation|Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers. (''Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.37.9-13'')}}

{{quotation|There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. (''Addressing his troops prior to the Battle of Issus, as quoted in “Anabasis Alexandri” by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 7'')}}

[[Philip V]], King of Macedon, 221 BC - 179 BC:
{{quotation|For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law (''Polybius, “The Histories”, 18.4.8'')}}

Cheers! [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 14:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

uhmmm, mr Jankuloski, do you really think that a person with your last name is related in any way to ancient Macedonians?? In fact the name Macedonia is Greek, related to the adjective makednos and to the root mak- still existing in the greek word mak-ros, you can find it yourself in greek-origined english modern words such as macro-economics. Educate yourself before trying to bias history for your own nationalistic purposes. And if you can not find any ancient macedonians self identifying themselves as ancient Greeks look for Alexander the 1st in the early 5th century BC. Why dont you look up the names of ancient Macedonians: Krateros, Philippos, Amyntas, Olympias, Alexandros, Gorgias, Aristoteles, Protagoras, Parmenion, Hephaistion etc etc etc. ALL GREEK. You could not find one single name of an Ancient Macedonian that does not have a purely greek name. And i could tell you this. I am a greek but i do not care at all if Ancient Macedonians were Greeks or just a neighbour nation to Greeks like the ancient Thracians. Since they decided to embrace the greek culture and to be assimilated by Greeks, whats your problem? that still makes them Greeks. Blood doesnt count. What counts is culture, civilization, language and what you really want to be. I recognize your right to have as part of your national name the term "Macedonian", you could call your country either Northern Macedonia, Slavomacedonia or FYR Macedonia. Why dont you recognize our right to not let you Slavomacedonians monopolize this name and its history? At least my name is Dionysios, related to the god Dionysos, worshipped by ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great (Alexandros o Megas). What is your name really mister -ski? ([[User:Dion Gc|Dionysios]] 16:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

:Yes. Dionysis. And your father is Zeus and mother is cleopatra ! ! DELUSIONAL.

Any 10 year old Greek can read what is written on the tomb of King Philippos. Can you?

—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek|contribs]]) 09:00, 3 August 2007

== =Hellenistic absorbed??= ==

The following paragraph makes absolutely no sense:

''"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians - whether they spoke a [[Ancient Greek|Greek dialect]] or a distinct language - were absorbed into the [[Koine Greek]]-speaking population in [[Hellenistic]] times."''

Wrong time period. The [[Hellenistic]] period did not begin until '''after''' the death of [[Alexander the Great]], while we know that the ancient kingdom of Macedon started to take part in the Greek world since at least [[Alexander I of Macedon]], that's a century before King [[Philip II of Macedon]] was even born. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006

:The assimilation of XMK as a language/ethnicity is generally thought to have taken place in Hellenistic times, not before Alexander III's death. In the lead paragraph things are usually kept brief, but you can add info about the process beginning in pre-Hellenistic times. [[User:69.106.104.144|69.106.104.144]] 17:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

::That doesn't match up with the other aspects that have so far been found, which point that XMK as a language/ethnicity was at least starting taken place since the [[5th century BC]], such as: aside from [[Thucydides]], who lived in the 5th century bc, proclaiming them as part of the ancient "Hellenic" tribes branch, we also have [[Alexander I of Macedon]], who modeled his court after [[Athens]] and was a patron of the poet [[Pindar]]; [[Strattis]] Athenian comedy which presents '''Macedonian speech''' as a form of Greek; the [[Hesychius of Alexandria]] glosses where the majority of these words can be confidently identified as Greek; Persians who had no stake in calling them Greek, such as King [[Darius I of Persia|Darius Hystaspes]], who ruled over the Macedon kingdom during the 5th century bc, would call them '''Yaunâ Takabarâ''' ("Greeks with sunhats"), Yaunâ=Persian word when referring to Greeks and Takabarâ=Persian world in reference to the Macedonian headwear. The Persians must have seem some sort of Hellenic influence to call their Macedonian subjects "Yauna"; the Persians dealt with the ancient people back then, they didn't call the Thracians, Libyans, Carians etc as such, but they did with Macedonians. Plus the Persians had Greeks living in their back yards all over Asia Minor, I'm sure they could have told the difference between the people they ruled over; King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] establishing the new capital at [[Pella]], and holding annual festivals in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]] (a city right next to [[Mt. Olympus]]); Southern Greeks such as [[Euripides]], [[Agathon]] and the famous painter [[Zeuxis]] composing some of their most famous works in Macedon at the request of King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]]. By the [[4th century BC]] there already numerious Doric inscriptions from pre-Hellenistic Macedon, such as the [[Pella katadesmos]] which points that not only there might be the chance that the royal Macedonian families were the only ones who spoke/wrote in some Hellenic dialect but so did the regular folk in a Hellenic Doric/North Western dialect which was not [[Attic Greek|Attic]] or [[Koine]]. Which is why I questioned the "absorbance", if one has that view, of Macedon during the [[Hellenistic]] ages, when there is some evidence to suggested it might have started earlier then that. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::Just a few corrections:
:::*The political acts of Alexander I tell us something about the political orientation of that king, but hardly about the ethnic background of his subjects - nobody doubts Macedonia started ''importing'' Attic culture from the south around that time. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::The way the first paragrapher of this article was phrased, it sounded like it didn't. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*Of the Strattis comedy, ''one single sentence'' is preserved, in a writer quoting it centuries later - I'd like to see a reference to a reputed linguist discussing what evidence this yields for the Macedonian language issue.
::::And how many sentences '''have been preserved'' to tells us that this ''single sentence'' proves other wise? What we do know is that the person playing the Macedonian in the play pronounces Αττικοι as Ωττικοι and υμεις as υμες. I haven't seen anyone disproven this as being false yet.~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::Yes, and in the interest of [[WP:NOR]], could you please point us to the linguistic article that discusses how well these supposed dialect features fit in with the properties of the Pella dialect? (Not that I'd exclude they might, but who here is competent to judge this?) By the way, I might be wrong here, but isn't "Ωττικοί" just a case of standard ''crasis'' of vocative "ω" with "Αττικοί"? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::The minute it is pointed to us of the linguistic articles which gives "proof" Borza's "linguistic" evidence disproves ancient Macedonian falling under the Greek dialects. As to the source of the Strattis comedy, it was taken from an article by Alfred Korte quoting Athenaios VII,323b which Sakellariou translated into English. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 27 May 2006
:::::::Ah, that's something. Could you provide a full citation of the source so we can include it in the article? As for the linguistic discussion about the pros and cons of the Greek-dialect hypothesis, see the language article, it quotes a few things. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::P.S.: Ah, I now see you probably got the info from this third-class nationalist website: [http://www.greece.org/themis/macedonia/faq.htm]. That web author manages to get even the quote from Sakellariou wrong. ''"Ma freen"'', αα ρε φίλε indeed! Let me make a suggestion: We should all get down from our respective soapboxes and spend a bit more time in libraries instead of on the web arguing and edit-warring. I'm still planning to rewrite the article, but not before I have read both Borza and Sakellariou '''in the original''', and I very much recommend everybody else do the same. I'm not going to enter into any more arguments based on cheap web material. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
:::*Hesychius is 5th century ''CE'' not ''BCE'', almost a millenium after the critical period you're talking about.
::::I stand corrected on the century but its value can be seen the dialects which are found in it do take back to the works of [[Aeschylus]] and [[Theorcritus]] which also includes the Macedonian dialect.~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*There aren't "numerous" Doric inscriptions, AFAIK. There's the Pella katadesmos and very little else. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Ofcourse, and as it was stated above, there ''so'' much evidence which points to it ''not'' falling within the Greek dialects. [roll] Isn't it funny that with each find, it mostly confirms its association with Greek then disproves it? Its interesting that King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] called his new capital [[Pella]], derived from the Doric word, '''APELLA''', which the Doric speaking Spartans (not close friends of the Macedon btw) also used in refrence to a ceremonial location; and what did Archelaus do after building [[Pella]]? Ah yes, annual festivals in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]].~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::*The Doric material (both Pella and Strattis) do not contradict the claim above about integration into the Koiné Greek-speaking population in hellenistic times, but support it. Whatever the relation between those Doric fragments and the elusive "Macedonian" proper - neither of them was ''Koiné''. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::What people seem to not understand when making claims such as that is that the [[Hellenistic]] Koiné Greek dialect, which was btw was based on the Attic dialect with numerious regional influences from local dialects, was not a phenomenon particular to Macedonia. Throught out the Greek world the Attic koine replaced the local dialects. So if you are basing the suppose "hellenization" of Macedonian on the integration of Koine Greek, then you might as well base that theory through out the ancient Greek world and say that Attica, Sparta and Thebes became "hellenized" at that same period too. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::I know what Koine was, thank you very much. The original sentence expressed the development quite precisely: Before the Hellenistic age, there was something that may or may not have been a Greek dialect; after the Hellenistic age, there was something else that was Koine. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::The original sentence, gave one the assumption that Macedon became a "Hellenic" culture after the entire world had been conquered and Hellenized by the Macedonian Empire, when for the Macedonians to be "supposedly" so "Hellenized" by the time of Alexander the Great, their "Hellinization" would have started much earlier then Koine Hellenic age. Couplet with that all the other material written in this article, it gave the article a different feel to it...which I tried to balance with some of the material I added. This current version which you cleaned up, is much better, IMO, and more balanced to what we do know so far. ~[[User:Mallaccaos|Mallaccaos]], 25 May 2006
:::::::Glad we agree at least on this. :-) I'd still like to do a rewrite of the whole "controversy" section further down, but it's a big task. We can then also re-introduce some of the material you mentioned, I'd just want to frame it differently. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

there is no reason to treat "Ancient Macedonians" in an article different from [[Macedon]]. This is a blatant pov fork, containing nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there. A clear "Merge with [[Macedon]]". Stop littering new pov forks just to score points in the tired old and ''boring'' "Macedonia" coflict. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|('''ᛏ''')]] 20:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

:This article was created by [[User:Alexander 007|Alexander 007]] following a discussion held at [[Talk:Macedon]]; and I hadn't been informed that we were vicious pov-pushers attempting to assure the victory for x side. As for "nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there", I found this statement sort of weird; where is the stuff in [[Macedon]] that is also in [[Ancient Macedonians]]?--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 20:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::I guess the original idea was okay, but the article has spun a bit out of control and has become POV-forkish in large parts through some recent additions. I wouldn't mind refactoring it back into the two other articles, but I think the most pressing task is to put the discussion on a decent basis in the literature, and not that cheap rehashed stuff from the usual nationalist websites (see above). [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

:::It a merge is going to take place, then exactly what is merged should be filtered carefully. I think the last sections, expecially the Hellenic controversy section, may not be needed at all. --[[User:Telex|Telex]] 20:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::::One of the reasons this article was created was to free [[Macedon]] from the Hellenic controversy section, that was large, ugly and unscholarly. Removing it made Macedon better and far more peaceful, and I don't want to return to the previous condition. This article is bad now, but it can always be bettered.--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 20:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the [''personal attacks removed''] have begun to attack this page also, I should explain that the first reference to Herodotus and the Dorians is not mine, although I believe it correct; the second is from Sakellariou's ''Macedonia''. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 23:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:It doesn't matter, the way it's written it is as if the article is trying to pass a hidden clue to the reader "fairy (bullshit) story" or "Alexander and Philip use that in order to pretend to be Greeks (which they weren't)" etc, etc. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::PMA/Sept: The evident attacker is you. The vandals you are insinuating are actually very reasonable and contributing users, who are protecting the article from your POV edits, undue weight and original research. Try to blow your steam some other way, or be prepared to face the necessary consequences of [[WP:NPA]]. [[User:NikoSilver| NikoSilver ]] [[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]] 23:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
:::On the contrary, I'm taking Telex's suggestion, and citing Herodotus and Sakellariou here. 23:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

==NPOV==
Pmanderson do you think I'm not in possession of sources that say exactly what I want to write? Well you're wrong. The only reason I'm not making blunt edits here (although I can source every one of them) is because I'm respecting the NPOV policy, which clearly states that during highly controversial subject, ''_none_ of the views should be favoured over the other''. I rewrote your edits in order to respect that policy, and what I get in return is a bunch of banal personal attacks. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
:Niskin has now four times deleted a sourced citation of evidence not otherwise mentioned in this article. This is against policy (and common honesty). If he objected to the phrasing, that was within his rights to alter; to delete facts is vandalism. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 23:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

<YAWNS> [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:Next time you want to report someone for 3RR, I would advise you to look at the diffs _before_ clicking the edit button. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 00:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::I agree that neutrality is important, especially with controversial subjects. but this case is different. the article will be fine if we just stick to fact. theres nothing wrong with contributing what is known, and something needs to be done about people removing information from the article which is in conflict with their cause. dont get me wrong, im trying to be completely neutral here. if a wikipedian has independent sources which corroborate any views of the people of fyrom and their government, feel free to add whatever they say to this article. but dont add something written by them, or anything based on propaganda. i think if information continues being removed from this article it might need to be protected. or something else. what do you guys think? [[Special:Contributions/68.193.106.206|68.193.106.206]] ([[User talk:68.193.106.206|talk]]) 18:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

==Cool down guys==

Okay, you've all edit-warred enough for today.
*I agree with Pmanderson that Herodot's origin stories need to be put into some context, as there certainly are scholars who regard them as (a) mythical and/or (b) applying only to the royal house, not to the people in general. Both can easily be referenced. I think the text he proposed was not quite optimal though, I'd try to make it shorter.
*As for the language formulation ("the language spoken..."), to my mind that formulation is so neutral it does not, in itself, entail a claim to ''separate''-language status. Therefore, the addition ("... or Greek dialect") is unnecessary.
What else were you quarrelling about? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 00:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
**Of course contributions should be edited. If I had been edited, rather than having the text blanked, I would have let reasonable alternatives stand.
**"Language" is incidental damage, although it is used in this context even by those who consider Macedonian a Greek variant; it is fairly widely considered to be further from the (other) Greek dialects than they are from each other.
**Miskin has blanked all reference to Herodotus's account of the Argead descent; this unquestionably belongs in this article. I will quote it in full if necessary, although it should not be.
**He has also left the impression that, if accepted, it would imply the same descent for the Macedonian generals, which does not follow. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 15:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said before this is a very controversial topic and edits must be very elegant. Pmanderson's were not at all, so I rewrote what I could and removed what seemed to be out of context. Nothing is conclusive and no view must be favoured over the other. All views must be given equal emphasis, and the order of presentation will depend on how many sources support each view (and not on the priority Alexander_007 decided to give). The article's sections must also be re-organised. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 01:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

:I have yet to come across a scholar who questions or refutes Herodotus' citation in the article, i.e. that Macedonians were Dorian settlers. The Achaean and Heraclid origin of the Argead dynasty is a different story, and whether factual or not, it was accepted in antiquity even by Thucydides. However historian today do question its validity. Pmanderson's edits on the other hand were implying that scholars who doubt the mythical origin of the Argead dynasty would also doubt the Herodotian account on the Doric origin of Macedonians, which is not at all the case. One is about the Macedonians in general and the other is about its Royal family. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way pmanderson, there is a school of scholars which regards Macedonian speech to be a Hellenic language sister to the known Greek dialects, and there's another school which regards it simply a Greek dialect with Thraco-Illyrian admixtures. The view on Macedonian being completely distinct to Greek is held by a minority. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

:Oh and pmanderson try to look at other people's edits before accusing them. I didn't blank the reference on Herodotus' accounts on the Argead dynasty [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonians&diff=55823428&oldid=55823187] (eventhough it's mentioned later in the article). I removed a small paragraph which was making POV conclusions on the ethnicity of the Hellenistic rulers, who were in reality not even Macedonians, therefore largely irrelevant to the section and the article in general. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 15:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following:
*"Both Philip II and Alexander the Great used this claim of kinship to secure recognition as Greeks, including an invitation to the Olympic Games."
Eventhough this is probably sourced, within a such controversian topic you cannot present it as factual, let alone stick it in the "origins" section. As I said before, in my opinion pmanderson's purpose was to mislead the reader into believing that Herodotus' acount on the Dorian invasion is as mythical as his record on the Argead dynasty. I repeat: They are two distinct records. If you find a criticism on the former theory, then by all means stick it in, but don't try to generalise the criticism on the latter in order to refute all of Herodotus' mentions on Macedon.
*"This claim of kinship applies to the Macedonian royal house, which was extinguished shortly after Alexander's death. The Macedonian generals who thereafter made themselves kings over Syria, Egypt, and Macedonia itself were not members of that house; although Ptolemy I sometimes claimed to be an illegitimate son of Philip II"
What does that have to do in the section "origins"? Later Hellenistic rulers were not even Macedonian, they were simply Greeks from all over the world. Therefore I don't see the need to point out the obvious, i.e. that they did not inherit Macedon's royal line. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 16:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

== Mallacaos' additions ==

Ehmmm, sorry Mallacaos, but that source doesn't suffice to make it ''not'' [[WP:OR]]. We're not just dealing with reporting facts here, we're dealing with ''using'' facts ''to argue for an opinion''. You've sourced the fact (Greeks as metics), but you haven't sourced the idea that it can serve as an argument about the Ancient Macedonians. Come back when you can say: ''"Author X has argued that, because even Greeks from other cities were treated as metics, we may conclude that the claim that Macedonians were "barbaroi" does not entail they were non-Greeks."'' - I very much doubt you will find such an idea in reliable printed sources by reputed historians or linguists. Hint: the difference between "citizen" and "metic" is different from that between "Hellene" and "barbarian". - No partisan websites please ([http://www.helleniclife.net/Refuting%20Anti%20Greek%20Propoganda.htm]). Quote a book, or even better, a scholarly journal. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 16:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

== Ethnicity ==

So the Argead dynasty and the kings of Macedon claimed Greek decent, yet we are still 'disputing' whether they were not a Greek peoples? Give me a break.

:That's a question I've already asked in the past. It's contradictory isn't it? But that's life. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 10:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL: "Herodotus lies in his book". Quick, someone write to his publishers and send him a stern warning letter with [[Eurydice]], plus relevant news footage from CNN. That will teach him, the rascal! [[User:Politis|Politis]] 13:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:It is a usual tactic of propagandists to accuse historians of lying... Poor Herodotus cannot defend himself... However, history has proven him to be right in most of his statements. and about the rest, future will show... Apropos, for centuries people and propagandists believed that Homerus was lying about the Trojan War, or that Linear B was not a Hellenic script... But, History always takes her revenge. and no matter if the Skopjans rename their airport, history can't be erased:). [[User:Hectorian|Hectorian]] 13:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::Let them IMO. And then Thessaloniki Airport should be renamed to "International Airport Alexander the Great - Cyril and Methodios - Kemal Ataturk the butcher" or something like that ;-) //[[User:Dirak|Dirak]] 14:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Back to issue: One theory states that the macedonian kings claimed, even lied, greek descent to advance diplomatic interests. However, the greeks and macedonians mutually saw themselves as distinct people —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek |Hxseek ]] ([[User talk:Hxseek |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek |contribs]]) 08:55, 3 August 2007

replying to hxseek> Hxseek why don't you stick to Slavic people, where you belong and stop spreading propaganda?
Macedonians are Greeks. Macedonians are Hellenes. Proof:

"Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you..."

*Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 14, 4

if you don't believe all these you can crosscheck them from their original books.

"Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service - but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay - and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops - Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes - they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they - Darius!"

Alexander the Great addressing his troops prior to the battle of Issus. Arrian, "Anabasis Alexandri", II, 7

*Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions."
Alexander the Great addressing the dead Greeks of the battle of Chaeronia. Curtius Rufus, "Historia"

these are -ancient- historical facts and evidence collected through centuries from various sources, Greek and non-Greek.

also Alexander's father name was Phillipos, a common Greek name. just like Alexander, all his families names were greek and have meanings in Greek. and in Greek only. Alexander's mother's name was Olympias. if you know a thing about ancient Greeks Olympos is their sacred Mountain of their Greek Gods. that's where her name comes from. where also the name Olympia, a city of southern Greece. and the name "Olympic Games". i guess you know the Olympic Games..

...

"
* Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably.
Herodotus, "Histories", 5.20.4 ,Loeb

all the above are pure ancient sources.

for some more modern sources>
*The Macedonian kings, who maintained that their Greek ancestry traced back to Zeus, had long given homes and patronage to Greece's most distinguished artists."
Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", p.48

i can go on forever...

and for the Skopians-Slavs who want to steal history i have to say. Be proud of whatever you are. But Macedonians in the blood you are not. and also>
* We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century (AD)... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Kiro Gligorov, (first democraticaly elected president of FYROM, referring to the citizens of his country), Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992

i would be surprised if any of you can stand half a point against all these facts....[[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 00:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

==Greeks and Macedonians==
E. Badian "STUDIES IN THE HISTORY OF ART VOL 10: MACEDONIA AND GREECE IN LATE CLASSICAL AND EARLY HELLENISTIC TIMES" by the National Gallery of Art, Washington. , Department of History, Harvard University http://www.gate.net/~mango/Badian.htm

:Facts- two Greek rebellions challenge Macedonian foreign domination. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/212.247.99.26|212.247.99.26]] ([[User talk:212.247.99.26|talk]]) 14:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Factually, there are many errors in Badian's article above, so why post it?

Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

==POV?==
Instead of learning things about ancient macedonians, the article contantly examines whether they were greeks or not. Well actually I do not thing that such thing as 100% greek exists as it does not exist a 100%french or german or modern macedonian etc. And it would not make any sense to try and explain ancient times with terms of nationality of nowadays. The point of view of this article reflects aspects of racial purity and fascism and it does not belong in a serious socio-cultural or historical study.
What is the point anyway? Because of the ridiculous name quarrel, it seems to me that the articles are being used for propaganda reasons -Eug

:sadly, this is true. These pages are plagued by nationalists who prevent them from discussing their actual topic. Nobody seems to be interested in the Ancient Macedonians themselves, all that interests people is slapping some ethnic label on them. I find this rather sad; a true patriot would show genuine interest in the past. In this sense, I have met very few true patriots in all these nationalist disputes disrupting Wikipedia. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]] 08:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I think this can only be achieved if and when Greece drops its monopilising attempts over the great ancient macedonians. The Macedons are common to the history of macedonia and greece, and at the same time not the equivalent to either modern Greeks or Macedonians. When we all realise this, then we can focus on learning more and more about them and not proving they are Greek, or whatever[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

and when the north or slav-macedonians stop monopolizing the geographic name of macedonia —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] ([[User talk:77.49.0.219|talk]]) 15:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 

:Oh brother. This discussion hardly constitutes a reliable form of consensus. If direct evidence emphasizes the ethnic or tribal identity of the ancient Macedonians, then it is our job as users to present that evidence. Unfortunately, there is no detailed description of the ''type'' of evidence Rawlison and Ramsey possess to support their arguments regarding the supposed Illyrian, Thracian or mixed origins of the ancient Macedonians. Personally, I could care less if the ancient Macedonians turn out to be [[Scythians]] who know how to dance the [[kalamatiano]]. What needs to be done is to ensure that direct evidence is provided wherever an argument is placed in the article regarding the origins of the ancient Macedonians. End of story.

:To be brutally frank, utilizing terms like "racial purity" and "fascism" to describe moments where users are presenting evidence that emphasize a tribe's ethnic identity is questionable behavior to say the least. Was Herodotus a "fascist" when he described the origins of the Macedonians? No. So, let us please avoid utilizing pathetic and cliche dime-a-dozen pejoratives just because we do not agree with things that exist in reality.

:Granted, I agree that users should provide data about the ancient Macedonians other than just data that discusses their ethnic or cultural identity (or self-identity). As users we need to stay focused on any tasks that will help expand and enhance the quality of this article. Talking about "fascism" and "racial purity" really accomplishes nothing. If a few "nationalists" have direct, verifiable, and reliable evidence that focuses on the origins of the ancient Macedonians, then I could care less about whether or not their collective behavior demands our use of trivial pejoratives.

:Let's cut the bullshit and get back to work. I deeply apologize for the profanity, but users should know better by now regarding what needs to be done in terms of enhancing the quality of extant (and so-called "controversial") articles. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 15:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

to Hxseek: when Greeks (and many others) show what the ancient Macedonians were, they are monopolizing? but a Slavic group claims heritage and usage of the name Macedonian in a national way it is not? ...[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 11:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

==Recent edits==

Hkseek, hxseeker or whatever, for once I will try to tell you somethings (although I seriously doupt you will understand).

-This article and generally the articles conserning [[Macedon]] are not a ''Greek POV'' as you claim. They are a product of serious talks and contributions by many editors and represent mainstream theories.

-It is obvious that you use [[pseudohistory]] sites like ''historyofmacedonia.org'' or similar Slavomacedonian sites as your sources and that from there you find your ''evidences''. Reproducing such fallacies won't help you and people can not take you seriously.

-If you would bother to read the article you might be able to see that it states that ''Besides the theory which regards Macedonians as a Greek-speaking tribe (Masson, Hammond), the Macedonians were sometimes spoken of as a tribe of Thrace, the land north-east of Greece, akin to the Thracians.(Sir William M. Ramsey). Rather than a Greek origin, some scholars argue that the ancient Macedonians had an Illyrian or Thracian origin. It is also possible that the ancient Macedonians underwent ethnogenesis syncretizing Greek as well as Illyrian, and Thracian elements (cf. Borza, et al.)''. Searcing historyofmacedonia.org to find all the quotes by scolars who share these theories '''does not addes gravity''' to your claims, nor it proves anything more than the obvious: that some have these theories, but most think otherwise, as it has been said, proved and proved again and again in this and similar talk pages. Try to read some of these, before editing.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 07:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with most of what you say. And i din't state that this particular article is POV. Its just the language section i think tends to make the conclusion that the languag was greek a little too explicitly, when most would agree that the conclusion is still not 100% due to the fact that (a) little, if no, ancient macedonian text exists (b) the couple of hundred ancient macedonian words are not really sufficient to definitively decide a conclusion (although I am no linguist) and many words are actually hellenised because of the overwhelming cultural influence of Greece. As for you attack on my sources, I don't see why scholars from england or the US would have a POV on the matter. In fact i didn;t use any Macedonian (slav) thoughts. It appears that some people like to gloss over theories which don't agree with the greek side

However, contrary to what you may beleive, I am not necessarily trying to advance the view that Macedonians aren't greek.
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 09:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hxseek: you say that "little, if no, ancient macedonian text exists". Based on such an argument, namely on the non-existence of texts, we could speculate that there may have been hundreds of other languages. The only language we know for sure that was spoken in ancient Macedonia is Greek, Macedonian Greek. I am not aware of any references to a distinct, non-Greek, 'Macedonian language'. Besides, Greek cities or regions occasionally accused eachother of speaking poor Greek or even of not being Greek. The Athenians did it to the Spartans and to the Macedonians, the Spartans to the other Greeks, aso... [[User:Politis|Politis]] 11:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

== Helle. TOpic ancient macedonian language ==

Hi Kapnisma. The reason for my editing of the introduction for 'ancient macedonians' article is as follws: It reads

"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language, belonged to the Koine Greek speaking population in Hellenistic times"

I beleive this is an unclear statement. From what i understand, Koine Greek is the language that came into common use after antiquity, the result of the 4 main ancient greek dialects. ANd, yes, this language became widespread in anceint Macedonia during the time of Alexander the Great. WHat is not known is whether it was spoken by everbody in Macedonia, or just the nobles/ traders/ administators, etc

But that is beside the point. An introductory paragraph should outline the theories about the nature of ancient macedonian language itself. Ie it would be more appropriate to state something like "Theories regarding the ancient macedonian language differ, with scholars placing it either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, a distinct though related language to greek, or an altogether seperate Indo-European language. Whatever the case, it belongs to the paleo-Balkan language group, as does Greek, Thracian and Illyrian".

{I am note trying to be anti-Greek. I am genuinely interested in the topic and simply what to make the article as best as it can be)
[[User:203.166.99.230|203.166.99.230]] 07:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you are Hxseeker, now about whether Koine Greek was spoken as you put it ''just by the nobles/ traders/ administators, etc'', the '''6000 inscriptions''' of it that have been found across Macedonia (in graves, pottery, stones, degrees, etc), combined with '''[[Pella katadesmos]]''', other Doric inscriptions and the '''absolute absence''' of any other inscription in any form of a mystirious forgotten language or in Illyrian or Thracian is the '''main''' reason why most researchers are concluding that although we do not have enough data to adequately classify their language it most propably was if not a form of Greek, then a sibling language and a fact that those who reject it have no explanation and a response to that. (Please, do not start quoting from the '''usual sites''' that you use as source every single one who has your views again, as proof)

[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 08:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

:I'll have to correct you on this. When linguists talk about whether Ancient Macedonian was Greek or not, they definitely, always, mean exactly that forgotten, unwritten, mysterious language that is ''not'' what the inscriptions are. The language in which ''gotán'' meant 'pig' and ''danós'' meant 'death'. The inscriptions are Greek, pure and simple, of course. That the other language, whatever it was, did not get written is no surprise at all. 99% of all ancient languages never got written. Whether or not that mysterious "other" language was what the majority of Macedonians would have spoken at the time of Alexander is yet another question. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:: and whether or not that "mysterious" language is a ghost language that never really existed, but you make it up out of your..mind in order to make a [[hypothesis]] is also another question. what is not in question is that ancient Macedonians as a whole spoke [[Koine Greek]] and no other language by the [[Hellenistic era]], they also spoke Attic earlier, and a NW Doric Greek dialect even earlier.[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 11:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I was refering to whether the Koine Greek was spoken just by ''some'', as our friend was suggesting, or by the whole population during Hellenistic era. Secondary, that ''forgotten, unwritten, mysterious language'', apart from ''gotan'' and ''danos'' (rather curious indeed, if greek), also included hundreds of greek first names (not only the well known ''Alexander'' and ''Phillip'', but also ''Ptolemaieos'', ''Orontes'', ''Polysperhon'', ''Perdikkas'', etc), dozens of greek placenames (''Pella'', ''Aegae'', ''Lete'', ''Aliakmon'', ''Argos Orestikon'', etc), tens of other easily understandable as greek words for social associations, such as ''etairos'', names of months, etc, etc. All these, combined with the fact that no other inscriptions, apart from greek ones was '''ever''' found is an '''unchallengeable''' fact not easily expalinable with naive arguments like ''common indoeuropean legacy''.
To conclude, their language although hard to classify due to lack of data, can easily explained as beloging to Greek family, rather that any other else, according to the above. Of course, there are other views too, but they can not give adequate answers why a non greek population was giving greek names to their people, cities, mountains, rivers, etc (O. Masson) or why the archaelogical researches reveals clearly greek pottery, artcrafts, architectural style, etc in their cities and graves and not something else as the findings in Illyrian and Thracian graves and cities are giving us.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 17:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I see what you are saying, but you as Future Perf said, ancient Macedonian was not written. So the words 'discovered' in Macedonia could be Greek ''per se'' (not Macedonian), thus giving a conclusion that the macedonian language was greek, or something similar. None of what you have stated actually disproves our points

Similar situations have occurred even in not as distant history, whenever a culturally dominant people interacts with other culturs. Eg the Germanization of Boheimian nobles during the late middle ages. They spoke, legislated and wrote in German. An archeologist from the future, finding German inscriptions throughtout Bohemia, would concluded that the boheimians were Germans and spoke German, although we very well know that they are not. In fact the large majority of the masses did not even speak any German, but being largely illeterate, they might have left no traces of Boheimian language. Just an analogy (and czeque language was written, but just an illustrative point)

Now, all i was saying is that you may want to clarify the intro. Yes, ancient macedonia came to speak Koine Greek during and after Alexander the GReat, but before this, the exact nature of their language was unknown. As i said before "Theories regarding the ancient macedonian language differ, with scholars placing it either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, a distinct though related language to greek, or an altogether seperate Indo-European language. Whatever the case, it belongs to the paleo-Balkan language group, as does Greek, Thracian and Illyrian". And we may never know because of the lack of written anceint macedonian words. Many words found throughout Macedonia are pure and simply Greek, being interpreted by some scholars as proof that ancient macedonian language was greek. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] 00:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments, Hxseek, have been responded above and if you consider yours as more solid, let's leave it to the understanding of someone else who will also read our conversation. But, risking repeating myself, I will tell you that you have failed to explain why there is '''not even a single one''' word found in any other language, apart from Greek, why '''the toponyms''' are Greek, why, finally '''archeology reveals greek art, greek burial customs, greek pottery, etc, etc''' everywhere in Macedonia.
As it concerns your other argument ''the Germanization of Boheimian nobles during the late middle ages'' an archaeologist from the future '''wouldn't''' suppose they were German, because i)their names were Bohemian (while the approximately 600 Macedonian ones, saved to us, ARE Greek [Hoffmann, O. Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum for the entire vocabulary]), ii)their cities, rivers, mountains were in Bohemian language, not in German (while Macedonian ones ARE, again Greek), iii) the artistic style of their artcrafts, the type of their houses, their burial customs, etc, etc was not German (while Macedonian ones ARE Greek).
So, you can understand what both I and the article are saying: That although the data, saved to us, is not enough, due to the above, most researchers consider Macedonian language to be Greek, or at least belonging to Greek family, but some others believe something else.
[[User:Kapnisma|'''Kapnisma''']] [[User talk:Kapnisma|?]] 11:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, although there would be large differences in development of nationalist consciousness between antiquity and medieval times . Anyway, all i was trying to impress upon you is that maybe the intro could be modified. I wrote it in the discussion forum out of good faith. What I proposed aimed to incorporate the different theories re: language. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hxseek|contribs]]) 04:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC) 

: Actually the argument that there are "not many" or "few" inscriptions dating before the mid 4th century does not bear any gravity, since fist of all it is a very subjective argument. Instead of saying that "there are thousands of inscriptions that prove...", we could always claim the exact truth. "That there are NO inscriptions found from the age of Macedon yet that are in a language different from Greek". This is true and until we have a number of the Greek inscriptions, we make a strong point while allowing for other inscriptions to be found, if ever...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== About merging the article with Macedon==

Definely no. This article contains quit detailed information about the ancient macedonians that if included in the article of Macedon will simply make the latter very long, and very difficult to follow. I thing that the current format is fine with links from the one article to the other [[User:Italiotis|Italiotis]] 17:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:The material could easily be shortened. There's quite a lot of unnecessary overlap with yet a third article, [[Ancient Macedonian language]], which means the language paragraph should really just be a brief summary anyway. There's also far too many long block quotes, all of this can be reduced and summarised. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 17:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

indeed. [[Ancient Macedonians]] is little more than an argumentative pov-fork. What are "Ancient Macedonians"? They are the inhabitants of [[Macedon]]. That's it. Everything is concerned with the modern nationalist "were they Greeks?" question. Nobody seems to be interested in discussing them as a group in their own right. This is {{tl|coatrack}}ing. Argumentative blather about Greekness of Macedonians belongs on [[Macedonian naming dispute]], [[Macedonism]] or [[Greek nationalism]], not here. What can we say about the Macedonians? They were Atticized from the 5th century -- like Macedon. Before the 5th century, they spoke a separate language, the [[Ancient Macedonian language]]. <s>Hey, let us tell you about this language (about 60% of article, never mind that it has its own very detailed article). Finally, here's a list of Macedonians, and an anecdote about participation in the Olympic Games.</s> There is ''nothing'' here that could not be either pruned as redundant, or merged into a short "population" section at [[Macedon]]. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] [[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]] 08:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If they spoke a separate language or a separate dialect is the unanswered question for both sides
and has nothing to do with the modern disputes

[[User:77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] 15:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

and nobody seems to be interested in discussing what the Macedonians said about themselves(self-determination right)

and Not what the other groups said about them

[[User:77.49.0.219|77.49.0.219]] 15:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

::: Actually all texts from any civilization of the time determined the Macedonians as Greeks. The Persians, the Romans, the Jews...

We know that the Persians called them "Greeks with broad hats"

The Romans clearly determined them as Greeks

“For if all the wars which we have carried on '''against the Greeks''' are to be despised, then let the triumph of Marcus Curius over king Pyrrhus be derided; and that of Titus Flamininus '''over Philip'''; and that of Marcus Fulvius over the Aetolians; and that of Lucius Paullus over king Perses; and that of '''Quintus Metellus over the false Philip'''; and that of Lucius Mummius over the Corinthians. (Orations of Cicero)

The Jews...

“And when he had said this to Parmenio, and had given the high priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that '''one of the Greeks''' should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended.” (Josephus, Book IX, 8.5)

The bible...

From The Machabees...

“1:11. And there came out of them a wicked root, Antiochus the Illustrious, the son of king Antiochus, who had been a hostage at Rome: and he reigned in the hundred and thirty-seventh year of the '''kingdom of the Greeks'''.”

“11:24. And we have heard that the Jews would not consent to my father to turn to the '''rites of the Greeks''' but that they would keep to their own manner of living and therefore that they request us to allow them to live after their own laws.”

And many others...

Actually there is only ONE argument as to the barbarism of the Macedonians from Demosthenes, and even he only claimed it ONCE in thousands of lines he wrote in many orations against Phillip...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Do not merge. Article should remain as there are articles about other ancient populations. It is also important to have arguments about their origin.
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] 08:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No merge. This is an important article concerning the modern [[Macedonian naming dispute]]. — [[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]] ([[User talk:EliasAlucard|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/EliasAlucard|contribs]]) 13:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge? Of course not. Then we should have to merge all country articles with people articles. Do our friends from the north want to merge [[Republic of Macedonia]] with [[Macedonians (ethnic group)]]? since the latter is "an argumentative POV-fork"? Don't think so...--[[User_talk:Avg|   Avg   ]] 19:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Thracian Kings and Olympic games ==
Were exactly are the references that Thracians Kings were talking part in the Olympic games?? Can someone provide a link or a reference so that we can verify this claim?
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 17:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Some newspapers are not proof or reliable references for an incredible fact that a Thracian king could participate to the Olympic Games. Please provide a real reference or if possible the quote from the original ancient text that said so!
The only possibility of participating is only if he was of Greek descent and only if he was able to prove it! Being an honorable citizen of Athens would have given him the right to participate as a viewer and not as an athlete!
I am deleting the passage unless a reference from a respectful historian can be found or at list the quote from the original ancient Greek text is found!
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 10:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

== Map ==

[[Image:Macedon2.JPG|thumb|right|Ugly map]]
We currently have this map in the article. It's probably useful, but terribly ugly. I'd be prepared to re-draw it, I think I could produce something better. Is the content of the map as such uncontroversial? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
::You know what i think and what i will source to back it..Its ok but ugly.Also pointing out the territories would be better.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 09:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm just talking about territories. The map will not touch on the ethnic character of either the Macedonians or any of their neighbours. This was really just a factual question: are those borders approximately correct? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
::I believe i have seen the original map for this a while ago thought i cant find it right now(curses).Approximately this is the expanansion but we have to verify.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 09:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

== Deleted Proof, Deleted evidence about the Greekness of Macedonians==

why do you delete evidence?
why is this article not including the fact that "All of the over 6000 inscriptions found in Macedonia until now are in Greek: ''Inscriptiones Graecae, Part X: Inscriptiones Epiri, Macedoniae, Thraciae, Scythiae.'' Multiple vols., Berlin. See [http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/ Online Epigraphical Database]"

is there a reason? why do you hide evidence like that? if there is not, can you see why we should not put this in there? how can the reader know about ancient Macedonian inscriptions? it must be there. [[User:DefendEurope|DefendEurope]] ([[User talk:DefendEurope|talk]]) 14:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

:Few of them may be relevant. The ones before 330 BC and the ones bearing peculiar Greek names or words.[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 12:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

== Modern scholars section ( ''per [[WP:RS]]'') ==

Modern scholars section is poor and definitely needs to be updated. We got opinion here of William Mitchell Ramsay (died 1939) and George Rawlinson (diet 1902) claiming an Illyrian or Thracian origin of ancient Macedonians while more than 80 '''actually modern''' respected and reliable scholars stating ancient Macedonians were Greek are not mentioned! I understand that perhaps it’s too much to cite 80 scholars, but we can cite 40, or even 20. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 08:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
::Yep the oldies must be removed.[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 08:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:::I’ve updated it. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 12:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

== Tellon from Orestis ==

::Tellon ''is probably'' this fella "Τέλλων Μαινάλιος παίδων πύξ" Anonymi Historici (FGrH)(1139) Victores olympici(fort auctore Phlegonte vel Eratosthene)(P.oxy 222)(026),Occurence volume-Jacobi#F 3b,415,F fragment 1 line 16.
*There is a huge list of olympic winners. [[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 15:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
::And the name is attested as "Τέλλον" as well[[User:Megistias|Megistias]] ([[User talk:Megistias|talk]]) 15:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

== Massive source addition. ==

Honestly, don't you think that this is a bit over the top? I'm sure many sources could be found to support ''all'' views in the section. Can we just stick to the ones already included? [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 16:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
: Though not even 1/4, it’s fine with me. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 16:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Beside few historians of 19th century (with no archaeological findings at that time) and modern political motivated Slav-Macedonians there aren’t any respectfully scholars who have argued against the Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians. Even Borza has agreed.
[[User:Seleukosa|Seleukosa]] ([[User talk:Seleukosa|talk]]) 11:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
: Borza says maybe..[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 08:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

===Primary and Secondary Sources should not be divided===
:If you want so many quotes without their secondary comments by scholars, this fits in wiki-quote but not in wikipedia.
:Only Herodotus has stated about the origins of Macedonians and we need the secondary sources on this specific passage [[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 08:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:: Added John Crossland's. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 15:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:Crossland's quote is about Perdiccas the first Argead king of Macedonians according to Herodotus. I was referring to Herodotus 1.56.1 "they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus".[[User:Catalographer|Catalographer]] ([[User talk:Catalographer|talk]]) 12:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

== Herodot as to the Macedonians ==

What Herodot said was not that :

"the Macedonians were a Greek tribe left behind during the great Dorian invasion "

He says that the Greek tribe of the Macedonians who migrated south into Peloponnesus were renamed to Dorians.

The text presented in the article reads :

“ ...for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthia was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopia having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians."

Thus, the text should read that "According to Herodot, the Macedonians later migrated into (or invaded) Peloponnesus where they were named Dorians."

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 02:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== Ancient Macedonians were Ancient Greeks? ==

The doubt comes from the use of the word "Philhellene" (a term reserved for non-Greeks) to refer to Ancient Macedonians (by Ancient Greeks) and from a very likely distinct origin for Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks [Ref.: Eugene Borza, "In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon"]. Therefore the article should focus on the description of Ancient Macedonians and leave the doubtfull Greek origins aside.[[User:Ilidio.martins|Ilidio.martins]] ([[User talk:Ilidio.martins|talk]]) 03:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

:Man, you just don't quit. You are a man on a mission, aren't you? That is a very weak argument you make, because as people have already told you, in the ancient context "Philhellene meant "Greek patriot" [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23110917]. You've already been told this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedon&action=edit&section=33], but you just ignore it and keep repeating yourself over and over. Not only that, but you also have absolutely no source to back what you are saying. --[[User:Tsourkpk|Tsourkpk]] ([[User talk:Tsourkpk|talk]]) 04:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

:While the article certainly could use ''a lot'' of work (notice similar opinions expressed above; some argued for a merging with [[Macedon]] since this served as mostly POV-pushing, though it's been fixed quite a bit since then), it doesn't state that the ancient Macedonians were ''certainly'' Greek. In any case, I agree that "the article should focus on the description of Ancient Macedonians". Stop acting disruptively and make some proposals, instead. ;) (Btw only Alexander I was called a philhellene to my knowledge, and the word indeed was used for Greeks as well in antiquity. In such a case, we would need ''secondary'' sources that comment on/explain the ''primary'' sources.) [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 09:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

::It was indeed only Alexander I from Macedon, plus a couple of other Greeks from various places, and various other references on the same meaning in the Greek context. See [[Philhellenism#Philhellenes in Antiquity]]. [[User:NikoSilver|Niko]][[User talk:N!|Silver]] 12:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"Examining the dynamics of Macedonian relations with the Greek city-states, he suggests that the Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture into their own society, maintained a distinct ethnicity as a Balkan people"
-Waldemar Heckel, Bryn Mawr Classical Review (a review on "In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon By Eugene N. Borza", so stop citing Borza. :) [[Special:Contributions/212.120.7.4|212.120.7.4]] ([[User talk:212.120.7.4|talk]]) 08:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

== Error ?==

Before removing this part, does anyone have any reference to even one text during the early macedonian kingdom that refers to the Macedonians as barbarians?
I am not aware of any such text but I want to hear any opinion on this before removing it...

"During the early kingdom, as in the case of the Aetolians, Macedonians were often regarded by the southern Greeks as "barbarians". "

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

:Even if it were sourced, mentioning it is a blatant violation of [[WP:UNDUE]] and [[WP:POV]] , because it serves only to advance the agenda that "Macedonians were not Greeks". No rational editor would include that information in their article on Macedonians, unless if they also included the subsequent remarks that "calling another Greek a 'barbarian' was a common practice among rival Greeks in ancient times", which absolutely nullifies the original intent of the first premise. I am adding a {{tl|fact}} for now, and will be removing it aggressively on the grounds of [[WP:V]] in 3 days. Then, if someone insists in re-adding it (with a source, of course), I will add the source for the 'common practice'. [[User:NikoSilver|Niko]][[User talk:N!|Silver]] 12:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, someone did revert it again so I reverted it back.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

== Omitted/deleted words in Lede? ==

A sentence in the Lede currently reads, ungrammatically and ambiguously:
:"The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent and Macedonia'''ns''' Kings '''since Alexander I''' were '''allowed in the Ancient Olympic Games but contested''', an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4]."
[Added bolding indicates problemmatical parts.]
Logic and my understanding of subsequent text in the article suggest this might better read:
:"The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent, and Macedonia's Kings from Alexander I onward were allowed not only to attend but also to contest in the Ancient Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4].
I've tried here to preserve the original flavour implied by the "but", though I would be inclined to replace "not only . . . but also" with the shorter and more positive "both . . . and".
If someone with access to references [3] & [4] can confirm this version accords with them, could they perhaps make the substitution? [[Special:Contributions/87.81.230.195|87.81.230.195]] ([[User talk:87.81.230.195|talk]]) 08:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many clear problems with these statements and I changed them, unfortunately anonymously but added my name i the changes.

1. obvious grammatical mistakes

2. The "but contested" part makes no sense in English though I suppose that the person who added this wanted to say that Alexander I's Greekness was contested by the rest of the Greeks. This should be mentioned in the article (clearly not there)but dear Somebody, the verdict of the Hellanodicae should also be mentioned, that '''he conclusively was deemed a Greek'''.

3. By no means did only Kings compete in the Olympics as far as the Macedonians are concerned. We have commoners who contested and won, which of course in turn shows that common Macedonian people '''DID''' contest in the Olympics. We have the names of some winners and of course there are all those whose names we do not have since they did not win. I would also point out that the Argeads were not only the royal bloodline of the "Macedonians". They were a '''tribe''' of Macedonians as Strabo clearly says (text will be provided if info disputed, maybe it should also be added in the article). The Argead royal boodline was the Temenids.

And of course there is no evidence that Macedonians did not contest in the Olympics before Aleander I. We are also told that his Greekness was disputed, but overruled. Do not forget that at the time the Macedonian kingdoms (kingdom is a wrong term, since there were more than one Macedonian tribe and more than one Macedonian kingdom) were subject to the Persians...
This is why I added "'''at least''' since Alexander the I"

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 11:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

==heavily atticized??==

Could somebody explain me the point of this expression in the introduction? What does this mean and why is this here?

Does it mean that the Macedonians were heavily influenced by the Athenians by that time in terms of culture and language?
Does it mean that they spoke Attic by that time and not Aeolic or Dorian?
Does it mean that the Koine of the late 3rd and 2nd centuries BC was Attic?

This sentnce is clearly wrong as it stands there alone and unsupported. If someone supports it, he should make sure that it be analyzed in its proper place.

So I strongly propose its removal from the introduction, for alone it confuses rather than helps explain...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 11:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it meant that from the 4th century onwards they adopted the attic dialect (which is the accurate sense of the phrase).
The koine was developed a bit later. [[Special:Contributions/194.219.26.65|194.219.26.65]] ([[User talk:194.219.26.65|talk]]) 11:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

== Difference vs. Similarity ==

Hello. I'm fairly new to this, so please don't mind the way of handling things around :) I would just like to put this topic, so we can summarize what makes Macedonians and Greeks so similar or different. Here is a start (oh, and no poetry, like ancient citations or something, please):

- Has anyone of you ever seen a political, social or anyway else similarity between how Macedonia was organized, and how were the Greek states organized? :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 16:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Bobvo, if there is a point that you want to make just make it clear, so that it can be addressed to. Just making questions and waiting for answers with no clear purpose is not what we are doing here. I could easily answer your question but this is not what we are suposed to do here, so if there is a clear point, dispute or suggestion you want to make on this article, please go on and put it here for discussion. And please, try to be as civilized and unprovocative as possible in issues that attract a lot of fanaticism, issues like the Greekness or not of ancient Macedonia.

And of course, ancient citations are the main sourves we have on ancient matters whether of interest here or not, so do not try to downgrade their immense importance, please. They form the foundation of history as we know it, since archaeology alone cannot delve into such matters. I really hope that I have misunderstood your tone and innuendos, but if you wish for yet another fruitless debate, do it in a forum suitable for this.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 23:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC) 

Actually, it doeas have a point - the whole article is about Macedonians been Greek or not, pan-hellenic games, greek language, alfa, beta, bla, bla, bla... Is this article "The orign of Ancient Macedonians"? I think it should have some info about the Macedonians, at least about social organization, religion, habbits and traditions of the Macedonians, not just this pity escuse for article, in a form of verifying that each and every time when the Macedonians are mentiond, the Greeks are put in the same sentance. I mean, WTF? Get it right! Agreee? :) [[Special:Contributions/212.120.7.4|212.120.7.4]] ([[User talk:212.120.7.4|talk]]) 08:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

So... make suggestions. What do you want to see added or what do you want to add? And please, sign your anwers. By the way, this article is about the people alone. As far as their politics, social organization etc are concerned look up the article "Macedon", which is about their political entities. I agree though that this article has to expand.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 19:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC) 

OK, never mind the heading of this section. I would like this article, since it has a reference section bigger then the article himself, to be more concentrated on the Macedonians, not their (not)Greeknes. I hereby call upon those who wrote the article, to expand their nationalistic horizons and use those references to add something about Macedonians religion (Xantika, for example), customs, what were they eating, for example, why did they drink so much, know, something about themselves. I've read the Macedon article, but it says more about the kingdom, how do I put it... its macro-oriented :) I would like a little bit more micro-approach here, agree :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 14:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

:What Macedonian religion? Do you mean the dodecatheon? Who or what is Xantica? Give universally acknowledged sources or / and ancient texts. I agree with you that there should be more information on the Macedonians. So, if you have any sources you want to quote or any particular data you want to add, make your proposals here. Thanks. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

::I think that our fellow user from the Republic is referring to Xanthika (Ξανθικά), some sort of purification festival of the army that took place during the Xanthikos (Ξανθικός) month. Any more information (and addition to the article, why not) would be welcome. I believe Polybius(?) mentions specifics. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 08:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

== To expand this article ==

3rd Alcove, I agree that we can expand this article and make it much better than it is now. But what will be done must be done with care, for this issue is political as well as historical and affects millions of people. As far as I am concerned, I have no problem stating that there is a contest for the Greekness of the Macedonians nowadays but making it sound as though there was one in the past is very far fetched and should be VERY well supported. You mentioned two names, Isocrates, a politician who clearly believed that the Macedonians are Greeks and Thucidides who never in his histories disputed the Greekness of the Macedonians. If you want to use ancient literature (which is the correct way to go) you will have to come up with the exact extracts. Even nowadays, there is only a small minority of historians who try to support that the Macedonians were not Greeks and of these most (including E. Borza) state the assumption that they MIGHT not be Greeks, clearly stating that the evidence is against their supposition. Again, I have no problem presenting an alternate side as long as this is clearly stated, thatis that this is exactly what this is about... another theory, supported by the small minority of academics. You also pointed out that Macedon was according to Hesiod not a son of Helen, but Macedon was a grandson of Deucalion, a Greek by definition since the progenitor of the Hellenes was not Helen but Deucalion. Anyways, the dominant academic position is clearly that the Macedonians were nothing else but a Greek tribe and throughout the ancient years, there was absolutely NO dispute on this issue. There was NO historian, whether Greek, Roman, Jew or of any other origin that called the Macedoniams non Greeks or barbarians. Demosthenes used the term, but his adversary Aeschines did not. Isocrates, also a contemporary Athenian did also not call any Macedonian a barbarian. Read what Aeschynes said and you will be amazed of the Greekness he pours on the Macedonians. (He mentions common Macedonian names, talks of the common Gods and the songs the embassadors sang in Phillip's court etc)

So, should we want to add cultural information and details on the Macedonians, we have to do it in a scientific way that will not distrb historicity and if we want to mention alternative theories on the non Greekness of the Macedonians it can be easily done in a clear paragraph named "Non Greek orgin of the ancient Macedonians theory" or sth like that.[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 16:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

:I agree with GK. I also do not have any objection to include the minority scholarship disputing the Greekness of Ancient Macedonians. But it must be clear that it is a minority, and that the majority has certain specific conclusions. 3rdAlcove non-consensual edits obscured, instead of clarifying this issue. On the issue of Demosthenes, let me just say a few things: Yes, he called Macedonians "barbarians", and I mention that clearly, without hiding anything (and why, should we, Greeks, be afraid of the truth?) in his wiki-article I rewrote, and brought to FA status. But Demosthenes' characterization had mainly a "cultural" substance and meaning. Macedonians were the "uncivilized" compared with the "civilized" Athenians, Spartans etc., who deserve and are honored to be called "Greeks". Demosthenes did not make a genealogy research neither referred to the "Greekness" of the Macedonians. According to his view, they were not "Hellenes" because they were not so civilized to constiture members of the "hellenic civilization". That is why they are "barbarians". Actually Philip is a "barbarian". His criticism is concentrated on him; not on the whole Macedonian nation. And, 3rdAlcove, do not underestimate the personal Philip-Demosthenes rivalry; two bitter enemies ready to accuse each other of the most horrible things. Being a "barbarian" is just one of these horrible groundless accusations; there were more by both men and their "puppets". Tsatsos correctly points out that "Demosthenes regarded as Greeks only those who had reached the cultural standards of south Greece and he did not take into consideration ethnological criteria."
:In general, I share the worries of 3rdAlcove about the article. But is he willing to undertake the task as a whole, and not sporadically? Is he willing to research this minority scholarship, and provide the proper references and citations? If yes, I am more than willing to help him with my experience in upgrading articles (if this experience matters at all). But non-consensual edits non-supported with material and references do not help. On the other side, co-operation and mutual work on the article could do miracles.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 10:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

::As far as Demosthenes is concerned he of course called Philip a barbarian, twice in all his speeches (another evidence that the characterization was nothing but an insult since his speeches against Philip and the Macedonians were numerous indeed). Of course he is also called a barbarian by Aeschines, his political opponent in Athens, who says that Demosthenes is a barbarian on his mother's side. This has nothing to do with Demosthenes's words but helps make clear how the Greeks sometimes used the term to insult rather than really characterize someone's Greekness. There are numerous examples of Greek writers calling other Greeks barbarians. What makes the difference is

a. the frequency the term is used (hundreds or thousands of times concerning Romans, Persians, Illyrians etc)
b. the context (usually the term barbarian is used not as an insult but as a determinant only and bears no ill meaning)

So one has to ask how many times are the Macedonians called barbarians in ancient AND medieval texts? The answer is : too few to mention... The Macedonians are mentioned in ancient and medieval texts as many times (if not more) as Spartans and Thebans together... Yet, apart from some political speeches of Demosthenes's times the Macedonians are NEVER called barbarians or given ANY other history or prehistory than totally Greek. They always are spoken to in Greek, they always speak Greek (if you read Arrianos's testament of Philotas' trial it is clear that the Macedonian "tongue/dialect" is Greek). Anyways, if needed we can keep on talking anout the Greekness or non Greekness of the Macedonians for countless pages. The important thing is that the academic community as a whole acknowledges the Greekness of the Macedonians and that is why their history and culture is taught universally under the term "Classical Greek Studies". This is proof enough that at least for the time being the Grekness of the Macedonians can be disputed only as an alternative theory NOT accepted but by the great minority of historians and archaeologists.

So... let's get to the point. Points to be analyzed according to my opinion are :

A. the different tribes of the ancient Macedonians.
B. their origin as attested by the ancients and archaeology.
C. cultural events taking place in ancient Macedonia as well as cultural events the Macedonians took part in outside their borders.
D. their religion (according to my sources Greek in all aspects, if anybody has to add something different he can always procure sources)
E. their language as attested by texts and archaeology (again if somebody has sources about some non Greek lamguage he should procure sources). The work of those FYROMian engineeres about the Rosetta Stone is NOT accepted by the international academic community (which persists supporting that the middle text is middle demotic egyptian) and we can discuss it but it can hardly be used as evidence, though the thory that the Macedonians did not speak Greek or spoke a "barbarous" Greek dialect can be analyzed.
F. any info on art, foods, science, technology would also be welcome.

Anything else?

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Concerning Thucydides: Do not forget that Thucydides called:"barbarians" even the Epirotes who resided in Dodona, which was considered by many (as Aristotle) the cradle of Greeks.The point I am trying to make is, Thucydides is not disputing the Greekness of anyone, rather the level of civilisation they had in comparison to Athens.--[[User:Michael IX the White|Michael X the White]] ([[User talk:Michael IX the White|talk]]) 15:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:: I already said that Thucidides DID NOT call or anytime hint that the Macedonians were barbarians... NEVER... I don't know how something like that could be said by someone who has read Thucidides. He even clearly differentiaites when he talks about an army of barbarians and another one of Macedonians...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 22:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Sure, no problem. --[[User:Michael IX the White|Michael X the White]] ([[User talk:Michael IX the White|talk]]) 14:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

==Disamb note, clean up tag etc.==
3rdAlcove changed the disamb note at the top of the article from "This article is about the people of [[ancient Greek]]; for the unrelated modern Slavic ethnic group see Macedonians (ethnic group)." to "This article is about the people of classical antiquity; for the unrelated modern Slavic ethnic group see Macedonians (ethnic group)."

It is definitely a minor issue, and therefore I do not intend to allow myself to get involved in an edit war for this matter. Nevertheless, I do not understand why it is so bad to make clear what the scholars' community and the historians diachrinically agree on, that the ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks (note that I do not say "Greeks" but "ancient Greeks"). This is the scholars consensus on them, as the scholars' consensus for the modern "Macedonians" (feel free to remove the quotation marks if you do not like them) is that they are Slavs. So, honestly I do not understand the rationale of this change. We change the note because of Demosthenes, one or two more historians saying that "maybe" they were not Greeks, and some groundless, vague and inconsistent criticisms of the established theory coming from fYROM? I bring this issue here for further input by other editors. I think GK1973 comprehensively exposed the diachronic consensus on the Ancient Macedonians, and if 3rdAlcove questions anything, and has sources and material to enlighten us, I am all ears.

About the clean-up tag I cannot disagree, and I first said that the article needs a lot of work. And I also stressed that if 3rdAlcove who correctly points out its flaws is willing to undertake the task, I'll definitely help him. Or even better, we can collectively with GK and any other interested editor undertake the task.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 07:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
:This is precisely the point at issue. The argument of the Macedonians here is that ancient Greece ended at Thessaly; I find it difficult to dismiss this entirely when [[Pausanias]] supports it. I would not object to ''Greek'' in the article myself, but I do recognize that there are two sides; the dab header is not the place to make these assertions.

:But the ''inhabitants of classical antiquity'' is no improvement; that's everybody in the ancient world. The Macedonians were a people/''populus''/''ethnos'', and if we need a noun, it would be hard to find a better one; I do not see that it invades the central question at all. So were the Ionians. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] [[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]] 21:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

*As for cleanup: ''holds a record'' does not mean ''tells'' or ''asserts'' or ''relates''; it means that Herodotus either attained an unparallelled athletic score, or has a phonodisc in his hands. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] [[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]] 21:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

:: I really fail to see the problem here... Noone disagrees with the fact that there is a small minority of academians who support that the Macedonians were not Hellenes themselves, even though they were hellenized and considered by many, especially Non Hellenes (like Romans, Jews and Persians) as Hellenes. As long as this is clear there is no Greek who would disagree with mentioning arguments and hypotheses on that point. BUT, it has to be also accepted by those who do not view the Macedonians as Hellenes that their point of view is ONLY SUPPORTED BY A MINORITY and is not the "new", "modern" or "prevalent" point of view. And then of course comes the question of how we should adress a dispute such as this. The answer is also clear. ANY serious encyclopedia over the world bases its articles on the prevalent position of the academic community and mentions the existance of other positions, which can be more analytically discussed in independent articles (like "The Non-Hellenic origin of the ancient Macedonians hypothesis"). Although there will be people from FYROM who will greatly disagree with this point of view, although I do not claim that their point of view should be hidden or buried, we could also dispute so many articles with theories such as "the Italians have nothing to do with the ancient Romans, since for centuries their cities were occupied by various German tribes", that "the Romans were actually Greeks, a fact they themselves attested", that "Hitler was a very ethical and well minded person who is brutally slandered by the victor's propaganda", that "the people of FYROM who call themselves Macedonians are in reality Bulgarians", "that the ancient Greeks were black" etc etc etc... All of these arguments have been uttered and are supported by actually MORE people and academians than those who support the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians. Is this what we want? To NEVER be able to write anything because some wish that their opinion was supported by more people? We can argue for pages and pages about the issue and it would be evident, as it is to any editor here who occupied himself with this issue even for a small amount of time, that the Hellenic origin and self identification of the ancient Macedonians is by far the most prevalent theory and is supported by the huge majority of evidence, whether archaeological or historical. This is why the academic community places the teaching of the ancient Macedonian history and culture under the Classical GREEK studies. Does this mean that the other theory does not exist? Of course not. It should be mentioned BUT it can't be treated as equal or we run a HUGE risk of having MOST articles in Wikipedia disputed and rewritten. So, friends from FYROM or supporters of this theory, place your arguments in writing and make an article to really present this theory and dear Greeks / Hellenes and the supporters of the other theory, make an article that will answer to these arguments. Then we can just stop this idiocy and refer to the ancient Macedonians as Greeks (per the prevalent academic fashion) BUT always and at all times mention this other theory and redirect everybody to it. I am really tired of having to be so careful not to disturb this minority by refraining to mention the prevalent historical point of view or having to persuade others that the other theory should also be mentioned...

As for the "inhabitants" of Classical Antiquity, it is a word that would be clearly wrong since there are inhabitants in a clearly defined SPACE and not time... There can be an inhabitant of a city or country or a house but not one of the medieval times or the 19th century...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
==The real Macedonians and the map==
A part of Albania and Albanian Macedonians territories including Greek territories where Albanians live belong to the territory of ancient Macedonia please refer to this map ,the name Macedonia is correct if Albanians are representative of former ancient population [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg] —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.78.64.246|80.78.64.246]] ([[User talk:80.78.64.246|talk]]) 20:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC) 

??? I make no sense here... Could you please rephrase?

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 05:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

==About ancient Macedonians==

I have reinstsated the phrase "people of ancient Greece". The reason is that first of all Macedonians existed before classical antiquity.
The second is that Macedon was part of the ancient Greece and as such Macedonians were people of ancient Greece.
The ethnicity of ancient macedonians is stressed extensively in the main text.
Further Macedon was part of ancient Greece, and still is part of modern greece, collapsing with the modern greek provice of macedonia.
By allowing a grey issue about that is equal to raising issues about the rights of Greece to its northern province and as such to indirectly support irridentitism against the northern greek province which is absolutely no NPOV. So in order to maintain a NPOV we have to maintain the phrase "people of ancient greece".[[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 05:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
:That's really pushing it. Wikipedia is not the vehicle for Greek grudges against the Macedonians to be played out, and many of your statements are not entirely supported by scholarship. "Of classical antiquity" is fine. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] ([[User talk:Moreschi|talk]]) ([[User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5|debate]]) 06:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Greek grudges is quite offensive and your point of view are extremely no NPOV. I demand your apology as this is not a place of trolling.
Second the issue of ancient Macedonians are completely unrelated to the modern issue. Whether some 2,500 years ago macedonians were an original greek tribe or became hellenised at 5th century BC i cannot see how it is related to the modern slavic ethnic group.
The way the whole issue is presented simply supports indirect irridentitism against northern greece. And it is completely no NPOV. I didn t add ancient greek people but people of ancient greece.This is very different.
Ancient Macedonians and macedon is an unrelated issue to the greek -ethnic macedonian dispute.
I expect some more arguments and not illiterate insults. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 08:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
:Please have a look at [[Ancient Macedonian language]]. The relationship of the Ancient Macedonians and their language to the Greeks of that era is a highly ambiguous one and is not as straightforward as you are making out. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] ([[User talk:Moreschi|talk]]) ([[User:Folantin/Userspace Folantin5|debate]]) 08:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi. As I said it is related to that. Whether they were a people of pure greek origin or they bacame hellenised and finally absorbed by the greeks 2,500 years ago it is irrelevant. The same for their language.
Ethnic Macedonian leadership admited the same :
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992
We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35
The rest of the approaches are no NPOV. Nonetheless I shall not revert it again but instaed I would like to hear some more opinions based on the previous statement as well which is very scholar at the same time.[[Special:Contributions/213.249.63.38|213.249.63.38]] ([[User talk:213.249.63.38|talk]]) 08:32, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

::What is highly ambiguous about the ancient Macedonian language???? Come on people... Again... Thousands of inscriptions have been found all over Macedonia and her dominions that were ascribed to Macedonians. ALL are plain Greek. This "dispute" only arose because of a political agenda. For thousands of years the ONLY dispute was about the exact linguistic attributes of this dialect and NOT about whether it was Greek or not. Even if you support this theory that has the Macedonians use one language orally and another in writing (???), you have to admit that the universally accepted conclusion of the VAST MAJORITY of international universities and academics is that the Macedonians spoke and wrote GREEK. So, when you say "highly disputed", you actually talk of a bery small fragment of the academic community, whose opinion of coursde should be mentioned BUT IN NO CASE can be presented as equally important or equally accepted. As for the issue of the Macedonians being here porteayed as Greeks, well... whether you like it or not, this is what the academic community in almost in its entirety supports. The Macedonian culture and history are all studied under the term Classical GREEK Studies, (Romans are not...).

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

And further the discussion concerns a language prior to the adoption of attic greek at the 5th century BC thus 2,500 years ago. Whats the issue here? That suddenly 2,500 years later some slavic youngsters decided to change history and for that we have to be PC and turn our sight from the truth?
Because their prudent leadership only 15 years ago were admitng the obvious :

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia."
From Kiro Gligorov President of Macedonia at Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992

So what is PC those days? To support a forged irridentitism or stick with facts.
Read the relative articles at Britannica and get a slight grip of historical accuracy.[[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 09:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Albanian Macedonians to day represent former antic population of Macedonia who spoke the Hellenic doric or epirotic dialect, a thraco-illyrian language from where to day Albanian language originates, but higher classes used the koinne dialect of Atiki. In case that anyone knows that then I am the [[Christopher Columbus|one]]. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.78.64.246|80.78.64.246]] ([[User talk:80.78.64.246|talk]]) 10:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC) 

Uh-oh, this has gotten ridiculous. Even Dodona (the above IP) chimed in with his wild theories... [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 11:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

“Wild theories” can be nothing more wild then this claim I do not see anything wild , why is that??--[[User:Macedoni from Korca|Macedoni from Korca]] ([[User talk:Macedoni from Korca|talk]]) 11:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

== Demosthenos and the Macedonians ==

... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors...

You know this, right? This is today considered ba Greeks as a political acting. Why isn't, for example, Alexander I of Macedon participation in the Olympics considered as political acting? I'm willing to write something about this :) [[User:Bobvo|Bobvo]] ([[User talk:Bobvo|talk]]) 16:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything? You take your best argument as to the non-Greekness of the Macedonians (actually your only one) and you debase it to absurdity... What do the insults a political enemy of someone have to do with Herodotus's attestation that the Argeads are Greeks as far as he knows, as the Hellanodices also accepted? What political move, especially to a kingdom that was not consideed strong at the time? What you are saying asks for much writing, but it obviously is not your goal. So, if there is any real question as to anything that has to do with the ancient Macedonians, their Greekness or non-Greekness you are welcome to ask. If you only wanted to write about Demosthenes then you did and the meaning of his words are clear to someone who has read Greek literature. Can you answer why Demosthenes only calls his rival a barbarian twice in all his hundreds of lines against him? Why his contemporary Athenian orators, like Aeschines and Isocrates talk about and to the Macedonians and NEVER call them thus or anyway suggest that they are not Hellenes? Why he was accused by ancient Greek historians for slandering Philip and why he was himself accused of being a barbarian by Aeschines? And of course, even if his words should be taken literary (a fact that has been denied by the acadenic community, even by those who do not deem the Macedonians as Greeks), then how should one take the words of your top politicians (President Gligorov, Prime Minister Georgievski or Foreign Minister Malevski), people of far more political weight than orator Demosthenes? Anyways, if you have any serious queations, I will be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 23:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

@the OP troll: Demosthenes is already mentioned in the article. Isocrates who considered Philip a fellow Greek isn't, though...hmm, something should be done about that. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 12:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

==Makednos==

I think there is a slight confusion in the text. The ancient greek tribes are not tracing their origin only through Hellen in the hesiod theogony but through Deucalionids. Do not forget the name greeks come from Graecus a son of Pandora II , a sister of hellen and daughter of deucalion.
Henceforth the argument that makednos might be excuded from the greeks should he be concidered a son of hellen 's sister Thya is not a valid one, that why the correction. [[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 18:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This is correct. I will prepare a detailed answer to this in the next days... now I have to go sunbathing...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

== Doric in Macedonia ==

Yes, 3D Alcove. Except for the Pella katadesmos there are many other inscriptions in Doric although you are right that the majority of the epigraphy is in the (Attic) Koine, since they are dated later than the mid 3rd century BC. Even in that, though, there are many instances of Doric and Aeolic elements like in the conjugation of names. Actually the Pella Katadesmos is not the oldest Doric inscription found in Macedonia. Check for epigraphies found at Elimeia (dated as far back as 500 BC), in Aiane, in Aiges etc and of course there are the Derveni Papyrus, which is the oldest papyrus in Greek ever found (6th century BC, it also has Doric elements in its scripts), as well as at least three other katadesmoi etc. And of course thousands are unclassified Greek, since they are simple names or words that could be given in any Greek dialect. Let us not forget that Dorian or Aeolian are not a different language and share most of their forms and syntaxes with the Attic or the Koine Attic (which is also not the same thing as traditional Attic).

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 00:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
==source about Macedonian prehistory==

they talk about [[Mycenaean civilization]] there.
see:[http://books.google.com/books?ei=LI0BSZ7-BpS4yQTWjPnABw&id=340vAAAAMAAJ&dq=greek++macedonia&q=Mycenaean&pgis=1#search] interesting for some, i guess.[[Special:Contributions/150.140.226.157|150.140.226.157]] ([[User talk:150.140.226.157|talk]]) 09:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
:No they actually speak about the presence of Mycenean Pottery which is a totally different thing. LH (Mycenean pottery) has been unearthed throughout the Mediterranean (Sicily, Egypt, Asia Minor etc.) and its presence is not always easy to interpret. There are of course scholars that understand the existence of LH pottery in northern Greece as an indication of permanent Mycenean presence (see what Karamitrou Mentesidi says in footnote 11) but this issue is far from resolved. In recent years evidence of Mycenean presence has been accumulating but the question of its significance remains moot for the time being. BTW the phrase "The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black and white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far" is rather non sensical in archaeological terms. The term "Black and white" pottery is rather generic and has no particular meaning to my knowledge. The local "Mattpainted" (αμαυρόχρωμη) pottery (sometimes imitating LH mycenean prototypes) is what was probably meant, but this type of pottery is still not very well understood and documented. The source provided for this "Black and White pottery" seems to be somekind of popular archaeology documentary that shouldn't really be there after all.--[[User:Giorgos Tzimas|Giorgos Tzimas]] ([[User talk:Giorgos Tzimas|talk]]) 11:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
::first of all I didn't say what it means so don't accuse me of so and neither should you cause that would be OR. i just mentioned that generally. of course the archaeologists and historians must have a way of working and deciding whether a culture is Greek or just a culture that had relations with Greeks[[Special:Contributions/150.140.225.175|150.140.225.175]] ([[User talk:150.140.225.175|talk]]) 16:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

:You probably miscontrued my response because there was not even a hint of accusation. I simply elaborated on the importance of LH pottery unearthed in Northern Greece.--[[User:Giorgos Tzimas|Giorgos Tzimas]] ([[User talk:Giorgos Tzimas|talk]]) 23:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

==Better approach==

Rather than dealing with whether or not the Macedones were Greek, or not, we should rather acknowledge that the Macedonians were a culturally and linguistically heteregenous nation. Whilst the upper strata were Hellenic, Illyrian culture and language remained in considerable areas of upper Macedonia.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 04:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:If we are talking about the Macedonians' ''origins'', we can't legitimately include [[Upper Macedonia]], which was not part of the [[:File:Map Peloponnesian War 431 BC-fr.svg|original]] Macedonian kingdom. If you can make a distinction between the Greeks and the "Hellenized" Macedonians, one must also be made between the Macedonians and the "Macedonized" inhabitants of the lands they conquered, no? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 05:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure. We can make that distinction, but this heterogeneity existed almost from the outset, not just after the great expansion, because on their movement frm Orestis into lower Macedonia they subjected Illyrian and Thracian tribes that had previously inhabited ''lower Macedonia'' itself. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:I don't think such heterogeneity is peculiar to Macedonia; the ancient Greeks as a whole were a rather mixed bunch. What matters is the influence these other peoples had on the culture. Do we have any record of the Illyrian and Thracian impact on Macedonian culture, other than the fact they once lived there? Or is this just another way of trying to say the Macedonians were anything but Greek? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 05:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to distort my words. There is sufficient scholarly opinion to include that the Hellenic component was not sole, not only in the ethnogenesis , but throughout the history of the kingdom, even into Roman times. It just deserves a mention in a sentence or two [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 06:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:It's already there (Ramsay, Rawlinson and Borza), unless I'm imagining things. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 06:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is mentioned. However, the way it is written seems to present the mixed ethnogenesis scenario as an outdated view (being the interpretationon 19th century scholars) whilst 'many' 20th century scholars now agree that they were, in fact, Greek (after the extensive archaeological research). However, even today the discussion in controversial, despite archaeological evidence. Moreoever, the article recites Theuclydes and Heroditus accounts of the Argead supposed descent as ''fact'' without at all acknowledging that such descriptions could have had propaganda purposes and been used as political ploys by the Argeads themselves. The same could apply to the use f Greek language and some customs - to better economic and trade relationships, etc

I think it is worth mentioning the proposed movement of Macedones from Orestis to lower Macedonia, is it not ? Perhaps better suited for the [[Macedon]] article, we should mention that, whilst certainly Greek was the koine language, people in such empires were multi-lingual and of mixed ancestry. Other languages were also spoken beside Greek [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

:[[WP:OR]], anyone? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 15:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

''In the first millennium BC, the mountainous area of Orestis, near present-day Kastoria, and the valley of the Heliacmon river, were settled by a people called the Macedons. About 700BC, this clan had migrated eastward from Orestis looking for arable land. Lower Macedonia was ruled by Macedonian chiefs who subjugated or expelled the earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants, while upper Macedonia was ruled by independent tribes. ....While it’s reasonable to argue that the original Macedones who emerged in Emanthia in the 8th century were a homogeneous group, this is not true of the great Macedon kingdom at the time of Alexander the Great. A great majority of the Kingdom was not Macedonian, but Illyrian and Thracian. There were many different tribes that Phillip II welded together to form the Macedon nation. This mixture of people, few of who were unequivocally Greek, makes suspect any claim of Greek ethnic continuity in Aegean Macedonia''

''''The point here is whatever the ethnic and language character of the small group of original Macedones, there was a complicated mixture of peoples at the time of Macedonia’s greatness.'' However, ''We should note that Orestis, the place from which the Macedonians came to their new lowland home, remained essentially Illyrian in culture and language. We might wonder if this is a clue to the ethnicity of the Macedonians themselves''.

''The Greek towns showed even stronger resistance to being ethnically and culturally absorbed by Macedonians'' (than the Illyrians, etc). ''Wallbank says that the Greeks living in Macedonia only sometimes called themselves Macedonians. These town had once been independent, but had been '''forcibly absorbed''' into Macedon. However, since the fifth century when the Macedonian kings '''invented a family connection with Greek mythical heroes''' and '''adopted a philhellenic policy''', towns such as Borea, Pella, Edessa, on the Hellenic model had existed in Macedonia. In general they were loyal to the rulers of Macedon, and on special occasions they even called themselves Macedonians . Nevertheless the essentially Greek nature of these town persisted. It is worth noting the distinction Wallbank makes between Greek culture within the borders of Macedonia and Macedonian culture. Clearly they were different. Hellenes were recognised as different from Macedonians.''

''The mixed nature resulting from this combination was evident in local interests and cultures. Historian Tom Winnifrith even says it is very likely that even at the time of the Roman conquest, two hundred years after Alexander the Great, quite a high proportion of the wilder districts of both Macedonia and Epirus were still speaking a non-Greek language. In describing the people of the areas, Strabo talked of bilingual barbarians. Greek was the language of government and administration of Macedonia.. . The presence of the official language says nothing at all about what language was used in private, in the family context for example. People tended to be at least bilingual, speaking both the official language (Greek or Latin) as well as their own language. The first language was their own vernacular, probably Illyrian in the north and westm and Thracian in the east. This kind of bilingualism continued throughout the next two thousand years as one ruling power was replaced by another.''

From ''Greece and Macedonia. The Struggle to Define a new Balkan Nation.'' By John Shea.

So. No. Not OR.

There is no need to minimize the Greekness of Macedones, so don;t worry. I know how defensive you are. We just have to tell it like it is, and state that not everyone today, even after all this "extensive" research, agrees on the issue. We have to present it such and let the reader get all views- not the opinion held by certain editors

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::Hmmm... That John Shea... but he is a [http://www.expertguide.com.au/!DrJohnShea!_5807.aspx psychologist], [http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school-old/psychology/our_staff/shea_john.html not a historian]. As I remember, he is married to a Macedonian-Australian. In 1992, he wrote a book called: ''The Real Macedonians'' (Publisher: Macedonian Australian Human Rights Association, Newcastle, ISBN 0 646 10504 3). In the introduction to that first book he stated "I began the process of discovery from a state of quite profound ignorance". [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 23:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

::Also, read carefully what he writes in his introduction of page 3:

"Probably everyone has heard the idea that the use of the name Macedonia by the Macedonians is a threat to Greece because it shows the expansionist ambitions of the Macedonians. Usually this idea is presented alongside the view that the name Macedonia is Greek in any case and should be reserved for Greek use. However the Greek claims go far beyond these assertions. This book presents ideas that contradict the Greek claims. In essence this book presents the counter-charge that the (formerly Yugoslav) Macedonians have a better claim to the name and the history of Macedonia than the Greeks in general, and even the northern Greeks who live in the lands that more than two thousand years ago formed the heartlands of the great Macedonian Empire. This might seem like an extraordinary position to take, given public perceptions about the issues. Such public perceptions stand as testimony to the effectiveness of the Greek presentation of their argument. However it is now my view that an alternative argument can be made convincingly. At the very least this indicates that the issues are not black and white. It also tells us some very important things about Greek nationalism and its possible role in shaping Balkan affairs."

Conclusion: Psychologist John Shea '''does not''' claim to be unbiased. In fact he indirectly '''admits''' he is '''biased''' against Greek position and naturally he adopts 100% FYROM's stance over the issue. Since the author himself, admits of being biased against a granted position (Greek), his further claims afterwards about "objectivity" in reference to facts are completely ludicrous, if not fatuous...[[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 23:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Lets analyse his falsifications further:

"It is often said that Alexander the Great was at least half Greek because whatever ethnicity characterized his father, his mother, Olympia, was Greek. She was a Molossian from Epirus, a group that some historians have believed was Greek by language and culture. However, authoritative writers have explained the ethnic make-up of the Molossians as they do that of the Macedonians: the upper classes adopted Greek ways and the Greek language, but were not Greek by birth. Relying on the writings of Strabo from Roman times to form this judgment, R.A. Crossland raises doubts about this supposed Greek ethnicity, noting the strong presence of Illyrians in Epirus. Although Greek was well established in the region, he says it may simply have been used by the leading families. Crossland says that even the existence of inscriptions in Greek around 370 B.C. does not prove that Greek was the original native language of the Molossians since the concept "Epirotic" may go back only to the fourth century B.C. and be basically geographic.
Furthermore, Crossland points out that the Greek writer Thucydides described a neighboring group, the Chaones, as barbaroi though their leaders from the ruling family had Greek names. Similarly, he classed the Thesproti, the Molossi, the Parauaei and the Atintanes as barbarian by associating them with the Chaones and not listing them among the Hellenes. If the Molossi and other Epirotic groups were not really of Greek ethnicity, then Alexander's mother, a Molossian, was probably not of Greek ancestry. Thus, neither Alexander's mother nor his father was Greek."
(''The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation'',
by John Shea)

Contrary to Shea's allegations actual historians have described ancient Epirotes as being Greeks:

"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994

"Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect)."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

"The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia...."
Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997

I could keep posting quotes, but I think you got the message: Yes, [[WP:OR]]. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 00:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:My point is not about the Epirotians. Whatever his credentials, Shea quotes other historians. Granted that the majority of historians view that the Macedonians were Greek, or related in some way, not everyone agrees. That is evident. However, my arguement is not about the ''origins'' of Macedonians, anyway. It is about the heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset. This has not been addressed in the article. Of course, the focus should be not lie on this, but it is mention worthy . [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

::But Shea doesn't say anything about the "heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset". In fact, he says quite the opposite: ''Lower Macedonia was ruled by Macedonian chiefs who subjugated or expelled the earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants, while upper Macedonia was ruled by independent tribes. ....While it’s reasonable to argue that the original Macedones who emerged in Emanthia [sic] in the 8th century were a homogeneous group, this is not true of the great Macedon kingdom at the time of Alexander the Great.'' No shit. A great majority of the kingdom was not Thraco-Illyrian either; it was Persian, Bactrian, Indo-Aryan and whatever else. Alexander the outset of the kingdom? I always thought he appeared towards the end. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 04:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I am referring to Macedonia itself, ie upper Macedonia. This was part of Macedonia proper before Alexander's expansion. Not India ! [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:::To end with it: Shea is '''not''' a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] since he is '''not''' a historian but a psychologist who -moreover- admits he is biased! Hxseek, provide reliable sources about the "''heterogeneous nature of the kingdom almost from the outset''" and then let's talk about it again. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 05:55, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with mentioning the peoples conquered by the Macedonians, but to say that [[:File:Map Peloponnesian War 431 BC-fr.svg|this]] kingdom was heterogeneous from the beginning is misleading, especially when the source you cite says the opposite. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 06:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I mean prior to the expansion into Asia. The areas also included as part of ''Macedonia'' included non-Hellenic elements and these people were themselves Macedonians.

I am not familiar with the source used for the abovementioned map, but refer to this [http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/beginnings_hist_greece.jpg] and this [http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/greece_pelop_war_431.jpg] Note: Macedonia is depicted seperate to (other) Greek states
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:Were they ''really'' Macedonians, or just conquered by them? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 08:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

That depends on definition. Politically, territorially, yes. Also no, in the sense that they weren't the Argead's original 'clan'. As a comparison, were the Greeks of the Anatolian coast, or lower Thrace ''really'' Greeks ? [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 08:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:They certainly were, but does that mean the Thracians, Phrygians and Lydians were too? That's what we're talking about here. I have no doubt that many of the conquered peoples were eventually assimilated into the common Greek culture sponsored by the Macedonians, but that doesn't make the language, culture or identity they adopted any less Macedonian or Greek. Interestingly, Shea himself admits that the Macedonians "subjugated or expelled" the "earlier Illyrian and Thracian inhabitants" of lower Macedonia. If that is the case, your claim that they were some kind of co-founders of the Macedonian kingdom is simply false. Furthermore, there is evidence that peoples such as the Paionians retained their distinct identity even under Macedonian rule. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 08:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Valid point, Kekrops. I shall continue my investigations. I will let you rest, but as a last note, I reiterate: there are ''some'' views that the Macedonians were possibly of mixed origins, or even hellenized Illyrians. This is mentioned, which is fine, and the weight of evidence supports that they were Hellens. All good. However, the last point doesn't ''disprove'' what I am saying. Macedonia was a multi-layered society with Hellenic (aspiring) noble family with many non-Hellenic elements within Macedonia itself. That other people kept their non-Hellenic identity doesn't mean they were not Macedonian [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 08:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

:Why non-Hellenic but not non-Macedonian? If they were Illyrian as you say, they obviously weren't Macedonian either, except in the sense of having been subjugated by the Macedonians. I guess it all depends, as ever, on one's definition of ''Macedonian''. I don't see how the subjugation by the Macedonians of foreign peoples equates to your assertion that it was ''only'' the ruling élite that merely ''aspired'' to be Greek. They are rather separate matters. There was clearly a relatively homogeneous core of tribal Macedonians who were descended from the original founders of Macedon, and they were clearly distinguished even from the other Greeks who lived in Macedonia. If they were nothing but ''[[Grecomans]]'', to use a term popular among your people, would they not have rejected any such distinction? In fact, the evidence suggests that the Macedonians were always distinct from, and socially superior to, the other inhabitants of the kingdom, whether non-Macedonian Greeks, Paionians, Illyrians, Thracians, etc.
:I understand your desire to mitigate the Greekness of the Macedonians, but does it ''really'' make you feel closer to them, and if so, how? The Albanians claim Illyrian ancestry; perhaps Macedon was an Albanian kingdom after all? Where's Dodona when you need him? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 09:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::Lol! [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 09:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Greek is fine with me. LOL. Its not about me feeling closer to them. you appear focussed on outlining my desire to 'mitigate' the Greekness of Macedonians, which is not the case. Rather I am examining the complete picture, from a learned approach understanding that we cannot apply rigid, modern day, understanding of ethnicity to bygone eras.

Kekrops as for ''If they were Illyrian as you say, they obviously weren't Macedonian either, except in the sense of having been subjugated by the Macedonians''. That's incorrect. The Illyrians were not all united political body, but a linguistic category. There is no contradiction to say that Macedonians ''had'' Illyrian elements. And are we not going to mention that they migrated from the region of Orestis into lower Macedonia. Currently, all there is the mythical origins
[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:Lol was for "''Where's Dodona when you need him?''"... [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 07:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

::You extol the heterogeneity of the ancient Macedonians, but when it comes to the modern era you restrict your definition of "Macedonian" to only one of the ethnic groups inhabiting Macedonia. The irony. Anywho, you'll have to cite some damn good sources if you want your hypothesis to stand. We have plenty of evidence that the Illyrians were enemies of the Macedonians, but not much about their alleged role in the formation of the Macedonian kingdom. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 04:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

In reply to your first point, Kekrops, you're incorrect. I haven't written material on articles citing opinions, or references, etc, supporting that only people from RoM are Macedonians. As for your second pont: "The Illyrians were enemies of Macedon". Not ''all'' Illyrians were enemies of the Macedonians. There were over 50 tribes in the Balkans generically referred to as 'Illyrians', which includes 20 or so in the regions of northern Epirus, Macedonia, lower Dalmatia, lower Thrace. There was a wide and fluctuant zone of contact between western Thracian groups, Hellenes, the southern ('proper' Illyrians), and the Paenoes (and Dardanians fruther north)- the latter two are probably of mixed origin. Politicially, there was an Illyrian kingdom which had wars with Macedonia. But this only included a few Illyrian groups, certainly not all, and was a subsequent development to the actual ethnogenesis of the various ethno-political groups in the region. Moreoever, from what we have seen, the dominant hellenic culture seen in Macedonia does not mean that ''others'' were not there. Yes, there is nothing hard to show for it, other than the (plausible) theories of some scholars supporting a mixed origin. The situation was similar in Pannonia. The Pannonian tribes were virtually completely Celticized, showing typical Hallstat finds. Even the pre-Celtic place names no longer exist after the 4th century [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
:::I added referenced info on the issue. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 08:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:I never said they ''weren't'' there; I'm merely disputing your thesis that they were considered Macedonians, or even equal to the Macedonians. I find it hard to believe that the non-Hellenic groups were of a higher status than the (non-Macedonian) Greeks, for example. What we need is less Shea-style partisan sources and a bit more serious scholarship. We could expand on Borza's thesis, if you feel your side is being vilified by the association of the Thraco-Illyrian theory with outdated nineteenth-century scholarship. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 12:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

K, why do you need to keep distorting what I'm saying (please show where I wrote that non-Hellenes were of a "higher status" than Greeks), and worse, politicising the issue by writing comments like the one above ? There is no need for it. Anyway, I don't think there is need to expand after CandO's little addition, that's all we needed. I agree that shea isn't the best source [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

:By implication, if we accept your thesis that the non-Hellenes were Macedonians but the "Greeks" weren't. That ''is'' what you're saying, right? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 03:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

No. Where are you obtaining these bizarre interpretations ? [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 02:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

== Hxseek's edits ==

I reverted Hxseek's edits per [[WP:OR]], because Stipcevic's comment doesn't really give anything to the article and Peter J. Heather's passage given by Hxseek has nothing to do with Ancient Macedonians, see [http://books.google.gr/books?id=wCOJfTB7HtgC&dq=The+Fall+of+the+Roman+Empire.+A+New+History+of+Rome+and+the+Barbarians.+Peter+Heather&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=JMBa0bm4hs&sig=HZ5odw-KZwDDULmFP2zq1RewUEo&hl=el&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA199,M1 here]. [[User:The Cat and the Owl|The Cat and the Owl]] ([[User talk:The Cat and the Owl|talk]]) 14:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

:Stipcevic is a specialist Illyrianologist who states that Macedonians are Hellenized Illyrians, and makes the important point that cultural and linguistic 'territories' varied and swayed, especially in a region like Macedonia. Therefore, development of an ethnic identity is a dynamic process; whereby multiple influences, contacts and movements shape a people. Layer upon layer is added which ultimately shapes a peoples.

The final paragraph of the 'origins' section states that many scholars now see that Ancient Macedonians were Greek. Yet, some Greek Wiki editors unfortunately do not allow the flip side to be stated, that is, ''others do not'', and dismiss any scholars opinion which is contrary to their own as "non-expert". One does not have to intentionally look for anti-Greek view on the issue to recognise that the issue remains controversial and no theory is universally accepted, despite these miraculous finds in 1983 of greek writing in Upper Macedonia, which actually don't prove anything convincingly. Even if we acknowledge that the view that the macedonians were Greek is the view of most scholars, there is a considerable body of historians who think they were mixed or even originally non-Greek. Whatever, the case, the issue is still contentious amongst historians. This needs to be outlined [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 07:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:Is there any physical evidence that runs counter to the archaeological discoveries that have generally proven the ancient Macedonians to have been either Greeks or proto-Greeks? If we assume that the Macedonians were "Illyrians" (or part of the ill-defined "Illyrian" tribal family), then what concrete evidence is there to substantiate such a claim? I doubt archaeologists have discovered any form of material evidence compelling enough for them to associate the ancient Macedonians with the "Illyrians" of, say, the [[Hallstatt culture]]. If we also assume that the Macedonians were Thracians or members of the "Thraco-Illyrian" tribal family, then where are the supposed Thracian and/or Thraco-Illyrian settlements that would indicate the existence of a potential pre-Greek or non-Greek presence prior to Macedon's Atticization? So far, archaeologists have studied and re-studied the material evidence and have almost unanimously concluded that the ancient Macedonians were of either Greek stock or proto-Greek stock. That they happen to geographically exist in a geopolitical "wedge" between the Illyrians and the Thracians is the main reason why some scholars are intent on promoting "mixed" theories. Of course, what do I know? [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, the Hallstat culture is not the archaeological hallmark of Illyrians. Secondly, I am not saying Macedonians were Illyrians ''per se'', but may have been partly so. How do scholars know that the region was firstly inhabited by Thracians, then Illyrians, if we have no proof ? It is no secrete that the Greek expansion occurred from farther south, although the Dorians were initially in western Macedonia. It is highly unilikely that there was a quarantine perimeter b/w greek and non-greek peoples. Macedonia was a very mixed zone, like today, with the Greeks being predominantly in the south of the region. It is highly likely that some of the Macedonian petty-kingdoms were non-greek, although the Argeads considered themselves Greek. The presence of Greek artefacts, pottery, writing, etc does not prove against the existence of ''other'' elements. Being the dominant culture of the region, one would expect to see Greek cultural artefacts at some distances form the Greek 'ethnic zone'. Isn't this common sense ?

One does not have too look far to read in history books which state the issue of the Macedonians origins is controversial. I know my 'general', 'non-expert' sources are inferior to all your so-called 'expert' sources, but i'm afraid there is a marked discrepency between what is presented in published books to what is portrayed here in Wikiedia. Yes, the majority may simply see them as Greek, but others do not. Are we going to gloss over this fact ?

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 01:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:First, "common sense" is a psychological fallacy and hardly serves as a substitute for hard evidence. Second, the Halstatt culture is as much a part of the ill-defined "Illyrians" as any of the other cultures that exist within the same artificially created tribal family. Had archaeologists discovered either "Illyrian" (Halstatt/non-Halstatt) or Thracian settlements within the tribal corpus of early "Macedonian petty-kingdoms", then you could make a case against the so-called "Greco-Barbarian Quarantine Theory". To state, however, that some scholars subscribe to "mixed" theories on the ''assumption'' that Greek artifacts were used by "Illyrians" and Thracians during a very early stage in Macedon's socio-cultural development would require evidence of hybrid cultures. If anything, the "Illyrians" and Thracians were almost constantly at war with Macedon. What reason would these tribal groups have to adopt "Macedonian Hellenism" with the Illyrians conducting constant raids and the Thracians possessing kinship ties with Macedon's competitor, Athens? "Common sense" or not, but ''realpolitik'' figures that what your saying just doesn't add up. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 15:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Err, no. Hallstat culture is limited to extreme northwest of Illyricum. Political animosities do little to stop cultural flows. When sources speak of wars between Macedon and the Illyrians, it actually refers to individual tribes from southern Illyria raiding Macedonian territory (or what have you), whilst others were pro-Macedonian. It wasn't a large scale 'ethnic' war - Ilyrians vs Greeks. Highlighting that Macedonians and Illyrians fought wars , and therfore are mortal enemies , precluding any contact (which would have occurred ''prior'' to these battles, anyway - pre 500 BC) is a weak arguement [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 09:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:I never implied that the Halstatt culture was prominent. I was trying to explain the fact that its supposed "Illyrianness" cannot be disputed (for now) since the "Illyrian" tribal family is ill-defined to the point where historians and scholars have accepted their erroneous lumping of the "Halstatts" with other "Illyrian" cultural groups. So, '''if''' there is evidence of an Illyrian presence in proto-Macedonian or early Macedonian society, then archaeologists should be looking for indicators (including signs of a Halstatt presence even if chances of finding such material evidence is extremely small since, like you said, the Halstatt culture is limited to northwestern Illyricum). As for the "Illyrian-Macedonian Wars", political animosities ''did'' influence cultural flows regardless if some of the Illyrian tribes were pro-Macedonian. Yes, contact would have to have been established prior to these altercations, but political tensions were hardly non-existent regardless if one measures the impact of a specific cultural flow(s) to be significant. Ultimately, we're looking at a series of "kinship wars" (small and large). The Macedonians did not have deep kinship ties with either the Illyrians or the Thracians for them to acknowledge the "cultural flows" they supposedly received from both disunited tribal groups. The southern Thracian tribes had deep kinship ties with the Athenians to which the latter used as a form of political leverage against the Macedonians. The geopolitical and cultural dynamics of classical antiquity are not easily classified as broad types of "ethnic wars" (even though the Greeks were conscious of their own unique sense of ethnicity). Speculation aside, archaeologists would still have to find within the ancient geopolitical borders of Macedon evidence of an archaic Illyrian and/or Thracian presence. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 14:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::That's always been my issue with the Thraco-Illyrian theory. Where is the ''evidence''? ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 14:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::You hit the nail right on the head Kekrops. It's not that Hxseek doesn't present intelligent arguments. However, the article cannot be altered significantly if there is no physical proof to substantiate the so-called "Thraco-Illyrian Theory". [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Alternative theories should be mentioned insofar as they are supported by serious scholars. However, I have yet to see the evidence these theories are based on. Perhaps Hxseek can enlighten us. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 17:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::I concur. But knowing Hxseek, I'm sure he'll provide something. If not, then we can safely regard the "Thraco-Illyrian Theory" as merely an unsubstantive alternative ''hypothesis''. [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 17:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

At present I am working on other projects, leaving me no time to actively search for archaeological appraisals of early Macedonian material. However, since we ''know'' that Macedonia was actually firstly inhabited by Thracian peoples (ie the Bryges), then illyrians, I'm sure some evidence exists. Do we not know that there was peaceful co-existence between the Bryges and Macedones. When the Macedonians expanded their rule, they absorbed these other people. If the Macedonians were an archaic Greek tribe (with a culture which was rather distant to greece proper), ''other'' elements also existed. Afterall, when one ethnos invades another, contrary to what some beleive, the other is not exterminated, but merely subjegated and eventually absorbed. I find it hard to believe that the Macedonians ethnically cleansed Macedonia of other ethnic elements (thracians, illyrians). Yes, the archaeological record, at present might is scarce in support of a mixed-origin scenario. This could be due to several reasons. When one culture is dominant, it naturally appears ubiquitous. Secondly, the pervasiveness of 'Hellenic' material evidence does ''not'' prove against the existence of non-Hellenic peoples. Afterall, material cultures do not necessarily equate with the ethnic origins of the peoples residing within that cultural zone. Thirdly, archaeological discoveries might be skewed by what the archaeologists themselves wish to discover. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

:"I'm sure some evidence exists." In other words, there is no evidence, just speculation. Got it. ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 12:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there is evidence. The fact that historians agree that a large part of Macedonia (even ''lower'' Macedonia) was inhabited by Thracians and Illyrians prior to the 5th or 6th century isn't a wimsical concoction out of thin air. The obvious slanted stance of the article is only thinly veiled by the superficially 'academic' manner it is presenented. Information is selectively presented to present a particular point of view, such as quotes from ancient historians, without commenting on the often dubious reliablity of these historians who only used their narrative to fulfil their contemporary political agendas. Not to mention the use of antiquated ideas of ethnogenesis, the "Dorian invasion", and an anachronistic representation of what it meant to be ''Greek'' in the 5th century B.C. No mentioning of the fact that it may have only been the ruling family which had, or claimed to have, a Greek origin.

If we want to understand and celebrate the glory of the Macedones, one has to be willing to explore the variable number of interpretations as presented by reputable sources; not to present the article as if the matter is a forgone conclusion. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 11:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

:It's good that you are questioning literary sources. But we still need hard proof to indicate that Macedon was inhabited by Thracians and Illyrians prior to the Mycenean period. The only thing going for the Thraco-Illyrian hypothesis is the fact that Thracians and Illyrians were living in Macedon when its borders ''expanded'' into Thracian and Illyrian territories (i.e. empire). [[User:Deucalionite|Deucalionite]] ([[User talk:Deucalionite|talk]]) 16:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

== I propose a warning in similar pages ==

"This page is related to the heated topic in modern times referenced in "[[macedonian naming dispute]]". It is likely that edit wars about the origin of anything Macedonian is taking place". Because wikipedia shouldn't pretend edit wars about ancient times related articles aren't directly and probably solely related to the modern dispute. [[User:Leladax|Leladax]] ([[User talk:Leladax|talk]]) 19:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

: I would not agree with 'solely' , at all [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 01:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

== sources needed ==

"nearly all of them advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin" does not have a source [[User:Mactruth|Mactruth]] ([[User talk:Mactruth|talk]]) 02:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

At present, the discussions focus on a ''primordialistic'' (and therefore an outdated and simplistic) approach to ethnicity. Debating about whether they were "Greek" or something else (whatever such terms may have actually meant in the ''5th century BC'') is futile and artificial. Continuing from above discussions, I have seen that archaeological evidence ''does'' exist that Macedonia was first inhabited by Thracian and Illyrian tribes, and that there is no reference to Macedonians before the 5th century. Herodotis speaks of them, prior to their migration, as ''Temenids''. This clan, perhaphs Greek -speaking, then migrated into Macedonia from the slopes of mount Olympus, and slowly established political supremacy over neighbouring, non-Greek tribes. There was no expulsion or extermination - genocide is a modern concept. So by a process of ethnogenesis, we can see how the Macedonians were formed, as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit. Naturally, Greek language was then spread primarily by means of cultural contacts to much of Macedonia, but certainly not all. The cultural contrasts between Macedonia and Greece remained visible to all ancient historians. Therefore, to classify their origins as "Greek" is clearly simplistic and chauvanistic. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 00:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

It is really funny how you choose to use sources... Herodot speaks of the Macedonians as being pure Hellenic. He stresses that they migrated to what was later called Macedonia from the South, how a branch of them later moved south and was called Dorian, AFTER it had entered the Peloponnese, how it (the Macedonians) taught the Pelasgian Athenians the HELLENIC language... This is what Herodot relates, whether you like it or not. So, should you choose to use him as a source, you have no option than to accept his story, a story that was never disputed, as far as the origin of the Macedonians was concerned in the ancient times. As far as other inhabitabts of what you call Macedonia are concerned, of course they have been of multiple and different origins, tribes, ethnicities etc, but first you really should define Macedonia, since at this time, Macedonia is just a fraction of what is today called "Region of Macedonia". Of course, among the inhabitabts, especially BEFORE the Macedonian migration from the South there were Thracian, Illyrian, Pelasgian or even more diverse tribes, as was the case all over, not just the Balcans, but the world... No ancient Greek ever denied that BEFORE the Macedonians, the same lands that were later occupied by the Argeads were occupied by non-Hellenic tribes (whatever they might have been) like the Bryges... The same applies to Magna Graecia, where the Greeks ousted or assimilated the indigenous populations, as well as in the Ionian coast. Again, regardless your individual beliefs, archaeology has not disproven any claims of the ancients. All archaeological evidence from the MACEDONIAN civilization, not from NON-MACEDONIAN civilizations which existed prior or parallel to them, point to a Greek civilization. As far as the spread of the Greek language is concerned, I find it very interesting that you seem to deem it almost self explanatory, although, you give no reason as to why NO non-Hellenic tribe of the day adopted it. Why do you find it so logical, that from ALL tribes that inhabited the area, it was ONLY the Macedonians who spoke and wrote Greek? If the Greek culture was sooo pervasive, why didn't it also conquer the Triballi, the Agrianes, the Paeonians, the Odrysses and all the other non-Macedonian, non-Hellenic tribes? Your assumptions are based on absolutely no evidence, while at the same time you try to both disprove ALL ancient writers, historians and politicians (except maybe Demosthenes...) while at the same time using them to support various other claims by quoting them out of context. I am really sorry, but there is a reason why even E. Borza has NOT denied the possibility that Macedonians were Greek as you do. Anyways...when the international academies catch up with your various proposals and decide to revise history, then we will be able to talk on a different basis. Until then, please, keep us informed on what the archaeological teams of your country unearth, as long as it has to do with the Macedonians and NOT with any tribe which happened to live upon Macedonian soil, especially as you now define it...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 01:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you misunderstood my points. I have not been "selective" in my sources, in fact, it is your compratriots who have been selective in the sourcing. They disregard any source which raises doubts about the Hellenic character of the Macedonians as "generalist" or "non-expert", see above discussions. One might interpret this as a biasing of sources, although I do understand and acknowledge that the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking. This is not what I have been debating against.

The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms. Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever, it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia. You say that no Greek denies that Macedonia was originally Thracian or Illyrian territory, yet if you again refer above, you well note that other users even deny this (eg see Deucalionite's comment, who if anything, is a very learned and rather 'moderate' user).

My point is that the Greek element introduced into Macedonia was a model of 'elite dominance', whereby Greek speakers from south imposed themselves and their language on the territory and its inhabitants. It was upon this movement and subsequent assimilation of peoples that the ''Macedonians'' begin as a people. To simply speak of them as Greek, or not, is simplistic and wrong. It denies the complexities involved in how a people begin. They were a mixed people which became increasingly Atticised, now doubt in part due to the political ploys of the Argeads themselves. Was it not only the Royal Family which were admitted to the Olympic games, and not other Macedonians ?

In addition, you would be wrong to claim that this process did not apply to other tribes. Although also disputed, some also argue that the so-called Epirotians (Chaionians, Mollosians) are Hellenized Illyrians. Even the Paenes and Thracians, which are obviously non-Hellenic, became largely Hellenized by the end of antiquity.

And yes, I do suspect that established and reputable scholars still need to catch up with modern thinking about ethnicity ! The old Kossinian approach to archaelogy and the concept of ''Volk'' is hard to shake off, no matter how many current social anthropologists have argued against such outdated assumptions

I leave with this quote ''Names of people may seem familiar after a thousand years, but the social, cultural and political realities covered by these names were radically different from what they are today''. ''The real history of the nations of Europe begins in the 18th century. This is not deny that, in the past, people had notions of collective identity.''<ref> Myth of Nations. The Medieval Origins of Europe. Patrick Geary. Princeton Paperbacks. ISBN 0 – 691-11481- 1.Pg 13-15.</ref>

To summarise:

Macedonia was initially setllted by Thracians and Ilyrian groups. This is evidenced not only by the ancients’ writings who called the lands around the Axius, the Thermic Gulf, and the HEART of the future Kingdom of Macedon as Thrace <ref>The Cambridge Ancient History.Frank William Walbank. Edition: 2. Published by Cambridge University Press, 1984. ISBN 052123445X. Page 273-85. </ref>. Eg Strabo ‘’Wat is now Macedonia was called in earlier times Emanthia. This territory was held by certain of the Epirotes and Illyrians,, but most of it by Bottiaeans and Thracians. The Bottiaeans, they say, were from Crete by descent (sic) and of the Thracians the Pieres occupied Piera and the area by Olympus, the Paeones that by the Axius .. the Edoni and the Bisaltae the rest of the land up to the Strymon’’ (Strabo, VII, fr. II).
As for the Illyrians: ‘’the archaeological evidence is clear at Verginia and in the lower Vardar valley, they were in control from some time in the 8th century BC to c. 650 BC”. Illyrian features typical of the Glasinac culture. Similarly, evidence of Thracian remains are also abundant.

Back to Strabo: he records the expansion of Macedonians not as "Macedonians” but as ‘the so-called Argeadae’. The author suggests that the homeland of the Macedones was in the mountainous area of the Olympic mountain and the Heliacmon beneath. Theucydides account (Th. II. 99) describes their expansion into the lands of their neighbours. Both Thucydides and Herodous agree that the expansion of what later became known as the Macedones was associated with a royal house, the Temenidae of Argos in the Peloponesse (clearly Greek). Yet, the lifestyle of the Macedones was one of semi-pastoralism (akin to Vlachs), different to most Greeks. Similalry, they organized themselves into ''ethne'' – clusters of small tribes- just like the non-Greek Illyrians. In turn, the Macedonian ''ethne'' was sub-composed of Orestae, Molossoi, Perrhaebi, Lycentsae and the ‘Argaeadae’, amongst others. With the possible exception of the Mollosoi, it was only the Argaedae who claimed Greek descent. And it was only the Argaedae who participated in the Olympic games. Herodotus writes that Alexander was accepted not as a Macedonnian, but as a Temenid from Argos.

The Macedonian ruling house spoke Greek and had Greek names, but “to speak Greek was not to be Greek in the 6th and 5th centuries, that was a matter of culture”. Hence until later, the Macedonians were considered non-Greek barbarians in early times. Clearly they had different customs, lifestyle and political organization to the rest of Greece.

Notwithstanding, the archaeological record is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century. Yet this Hellenization should not be thought of as a mass migration of “Greeks” from farther south, expelling non-Greeks. Rather “Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interactions. Such (sic) interactions were probably responsible for the development of the networks of contacts which facilitated the creation of similar customs”.<ref> Archaeology and language: the puzzle of Indo-European origins
By Colin Renfrew
Edition: reprint, illustrated
Published by CUP Archive, 1990
ISBN 0521386756,</ref> That is, the spread of a new archaeological culture need not require the implication that anyone actually moved; given that the cohesion to a material culture by certain groups might signify the acquisition of a new, higher level of identity. This is not to deny that there wasn;t some, ''small-scale'' migrations, eg of some kind of warrior-pastoralists. Herodotus and others’ semi-legendary accounts of the Argaeaeds might well be true. However, it more accurately suggests the movement of a small, new dominant clan imposing itself on other, obviously already mixed peoples. The disappearance of the previous Illyrian and Thracian cultures does not mean that those people also disappeared, but had merely adopted, or were eclipsed by, the new dominant group of the region which aspired a Hellenic cultural identity.

Thus it would be wrong to think of the Macedonians as a pre-formed people which existed in the depths of pre-history, an as yet unnoticed Greek people, biding their time. This is why there is no mention of Macedonians before 6th century BC. Clearly their origins are traced to the ascendency of a ruling group, or clan, which asserted authority over new peoples c. 6th century BC. Although the Teminids were Greek, the Macedonians were a mixed peoples.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 09:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I have made some edits in accordace to the discussion, refferences and the common sence. [[User:Jingiby|Jingby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 13:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I have to ask for forgiveness regarding the length of my answer, but I truly believe it is due. So, let's see your points...
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1. At present, the discussions focus on a primordialistic (and therefore an outdated and simplistic) approach to ethnicity. Debating about whether they were "Greek" or something else (whatever such terms may have actually meant in the 5th century BC) is futile and artificial.
|}

First you say there is no point in debating whether the ancient Macedonians were of Greek stock or not. It is wrong to bring in primordialism into the discussion, since the question here is not whether today's Balkan nations have anything to do with the ancients but whether THESE ancients identified themselves as Greeks. There is absolutely no simplicity involved in categorizing this people as a Greek (or any other) tribe, according to archaeological and literary evidence. The term "Hellenas: was not artificial in the 5th century BC, as you seem to claim.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. archaeological evidence ''does'' exist that Macedonia was first inhabited by Thracian and Illyrian tribes, and that there is no reference to Macedonians before the 5th century
|}

As I pointed out, first you do not define the geographical Macedonia you are speaking of... In order to be able to examine where any evidence has been found, we have to know the extents of this where... So, are you talking about Illyrian or Thracian presence around Bitola, around Pella, around Dion, in Chalkidike or maybe around the Strymon? All these places have been called Macedonia, although in and before the 5ht century things were different. As for the presence of the Macedonians before the 5th century and references thereof, I can only assume you are talking about the literary evidence, which happens to start at this period. So in that context we have no reference of any Spartans before that... Yet, all ancient writers place the starting point of the Macedonian existence in a much older time, first as a Hellenic tribe which migrated north and then again south to cause the Dorian Invasion and then as the Temenids and their followers, who lived among the Bryges, a tribe, which does not seem to belong either to the Illyrian or to the Thracian group, a people which later migrated into Asia, probably as a result of a non-peaceful reality.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. Herodotis speaks of them, prior to their migration, as ''Temenids''. This clan, perhaphs Greek -speaking, then migrated into Macedonia from the slopes of mount Olympus, and slowly established political supremacy over neighbouring, non-Greek tribes.
|}

Herodot does not call the Macedonians "Temenids" prior to their migration north. He calls them "Makednous". He does NOT say that PERHAPS they were Greek speaking. He says that they WERE Greek speaking and goes on to relate how THEY HELLENIZED the Athenians. He also, does not say anything about them extending their supremacy over other neighboring Greek or non Greek tribes. This is why I said that you misquote Herodot. You seem to mix this up with Herodot's account of the descendance of Alexander I, when he relates of how the sons of Temenos fled to an unnamed Macedonian king from Argos, there forming their own kingdom. So, according to Herodot, the Macedonians were Hellenes, they were the same people later called Dorian and Lacedaemonian and they were the ones who brought the Athenians into the Hellenic world (as incredible as it might sound to some, this is what Herodot claims. Of course then, another huge discussion can be initiated as to whether the Pelasgians could be considered Greek or pre-Greek etc, but this is another question). According to Herodot, the Temenids were Hellenes from Argos, who ruled over Macedonians, definitely calling them also Hellenes, but under no circumstances saying that only the Argeads / Temenids were Macedonians. In conclusion, Herodot clearly defines the Macedonians as Hellenes and places the beginning of their existence before the invasion of the Dorians into the Peloponnese. The second story is about the Argead House alone and has a value of its own, since they are actually what all this irrational debate (not between me and you, but in a political sense) is about.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|4. There was no expulsion or extermination - genocide is a modern concept. So by a process of ethnogenesis, we can see how the Macedonians were formed, as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit.
|}

How did you come to this conclusion? Of course this might be true, but expulsion and to a lesser degree extermination, were methods used by the ancients to occupy new areas. Why did the Bryges migrate to Asia Minor, if they did not have to? Isn't this expulsion? We can't just view the Macedonians as a heterogeneous ethno-political unit, since they are NEVER accounted as one. To have a multi ethnic ethnos, you don't just look at the genes. No tribe or people on earth EVER is pure (pure from what? since when?) but you have to see it in terms of assimilation. A multi ethnic group of people is a state like the US, where every ethnic group keeps (even to a certain degree) its own customs, religion, speech, even sense of ethnicity. Macedonians were just Macedonians. If (and in so many centuries, I bet they did) non-Macedonian tribes were included in their ethnos (a term not to be confused with "nation"), the latter were assimilated and became a full part of their assimilators. Themistocles, Demosthenes and so many other glorious Athenians were partly barbaric. This did not make them less Greek, even if sometimes they were slandered as such (rings any bells?). Wasn't Demosthenes called a barbarian, a semi-Scythian? Yet, he was a Greek and of course enjoyed all the rights and honors every other Greek did.

According to the Greeks there was NO process of ethnogenesis as you imply. The Macedonians were an ethnos BEFORE migrating/invading north. They were not formed in these lands.

Now the second part of this claim is even more peculiar... "a heterogenous POLITICAL unit"? Macedonia was ruled by Macedonians, there were no multi-ethnical councils, non Macedonian kings, a set proportion of non Macedonian delegates in any kind of assembly.
{| class="wikitable" border="1"
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5. Naturally, Greek language was then spread primarily by means of cultural contacts to much of Macedonia, but certainly not all. The cultural contrasts between Macedonia and Greece remained visible to all ancient historians.
|}

As I have already shown, according to Herodot it was the Macedonians who spread the Hellenic language, not the other way around. And of course it is also interesting, that the Macedonians were Greek speakers, while the Thracians, Illyrians, Bryges, Paeonians etc were not. Again you say "to much of Macedonia" but fail to make understood whether you are speaking of the Macedonian tribes or the land of Macedonia as is TODAY defined... If you are talking about the Macedonian tribes, then you obviously are wrong, since all are attested to have been Greek speaking, if you are talking of Macedonia as a geographical term, then of course, there were non-Macedonian peoples who did not speak Greek. As for the cultural contrasts you are referring to, you are greatly generalizing. First of all you group the rest of Greece, as if the Spartans had the same customs to the Athenians, as if the Syracusans had the same customs to the Cretans. What is it that strikes you as non Greek in Macedonian culture? Is it the architecture? The arts of painting and sculpture? Pottery? Religion? Burial customs? The fact that they were a pastoral society in contrast to the seafaring Athenians? Was the custom of the Spartans to have any deformed child killed a Greek custom? Was their Agoge a Greek custom? Were the Epirotans, the Ambracians, the Thessalians, the Acarnanians also seafaring? Were the hats of the Thessalians typical of all Greeks? Were Syracuse, Sparta, the Cypriotic cities democracies? You cannot just summarize the traditions and culture of all Greek states as "Greek" and then just say that the Macedonians' were different.. Please, make more research on this and you will easily see that Macedonian traditions were more Greek than those of Lacedaemon. You really touch this aspect from an angle that makes little sense. Should you like to explore the cultural identity of the Macedonians, then you have to research their religion, their rituals, their self-identity, their art, their language, factors that even today define a cultural identity, rather than whether they put one or two jars in tombs.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|6. Therefore, to classify their origins as "Greek" is clearly simplistic and chauvanistic.
|}

This was not a good conclusion. To call everybody who disagree with your poor argumentation a chauvinist does not contribute to a civilized discussion, especially, when you are confronting accepted history and archaeology. It implies a deep disrespect to me and everyone else who happen to disagree.

Now... let's go on to your second post.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|1. I'm afraid you misunderstood my points. I have not been "selective" in my sources, in fact, it is your compratriots who have been selective in the sourcing. They disregard any source which raises doubts about the Hellenic character of the Macedonians as "generalist" or "non-expert", see above discussions.
|}

I hope I have misunderstood, but it unfortunately does not seem so. You have been selective in your sources, since you misquoted Herodot. I am not talking about other sources, since you offered none (it was a small text, you didn't have to). Yet, you misquoted Herodot, which is a selective use of a source. Greeks being selective? Of course not. They know that there are passages that call the Macedonians barbarians (however few in number), they know that there are academians who support that the Macedonians were a non Greek tribe (however few). They don't try to misquote them but to answer to their argumentation, which is a totally different thing. That there are unschooled Greeks who don't know a thing about history or archaeology and yet formulate opinions based on what they have heard or read someplace is of course self evident, but the general Greek approach on this matter is much more appropriate than using sources according to whim. Herodot conclusively claimed that the Macedonians were Greek AND that the Argeads were Greeks. Using Herodot to claim that "not all Macedonians spoke Greek", that "the Macedonians were called Temenids, before they migrated to Macedonia" etc, are obvious blunders and misquotes. As for "generalist" or "non-expert" opinions, I can only offer you my opinion if you exactly tell me to which ones you are referring to. Are there "generalist" or "non-expert" opinions? Of course there are. Unfortunately, the web is filled with opinions of people who misquote, generalize, falsely translate etc texts to further their cause. Yet, there are expert opinions too..

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. One might interpret this as a biasing of sources, although I do understand and acknowledge that the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking. This is not what I have been debating against.
|}

Of course there is a biasing of sources. There are sources of value and others of no value. The question is always on what grounds anybody accepts or rejects a source. Rejecting a serious source should not be acceptable, arguing with it is. Accepting a worthless source is also unacceptable, using it to further conduct personal research is not.

However, your admission that "the majority of scholars do in fact agree that the Ancient Macedonians were Greek, or at least, Greek speaking" shows you are not yet another advocate of extremist positions, which makes me really happy.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms. Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever, it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia.
|}

Now.. this sentence for example calls for a lot of discussion. You first say "The greek element in is indisputable in the origins of the A.Ms". Correct. As far as all sources are concerned, this is the case. Then you proceed with "Whether their tale from Argos is a metaphor, a semi-legendary account, or whatever,..." No problem with that, although you avoid the words "..or the truth.." and you close up with "it is likely to signify the intrusive Greek element into Macedonia, then known as Emanthia.".... yes its is... although it is more likely to signify the Greekness of the Macedonian tribes. Again you are doing a mistake mixing up geography with peoples. Your argument is correct if one interprets Macedonia as a place, which is what you obviously do, when you are saying, that then it was called Emathia (by the way, much less sources on that than on the prehistory of the Macedonians...). But this element, you are referring to, the "intrusive Greek element", was according to the ancients the Macedonians. Anyone reading this sentence will misunderstand your use of Macedonia and unfortunately (not your fault) will think that what you mean is that there was "an intrusive Greek element" among the Macedonian people. The question I am posing here is what did you mean?

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|4. You say that no Greek denies that Macedonia was originally Thracian or Illyrian territory, yet if you again refer above, you well note that other users even deny this (eg see Deucalionite's comment, who if anything, is a very learned and rather 'moderate' user).
|}

Again you are doing the same mistake... which Macedonia are you talking about? And what Thracians or Illyrians are you talking about? Macedonia in the current sense was of course in many parts inhabited by Thracian or/and Illyrian. Paeonians for example could have been Thracian tribes and they lived in the modern region of Macedonia before the migration of the Macedonians, Of course their land was NOT Emathia, nor was it called Macedonia afterwards up until much later. The Bryges, do not seem to have been neither Illyrian nor Thracian but they were non-Greek and of course non-Macedonians. It all has to do with HOW YOU DEFINE MACEDONIA. Macedonia Proper was not Illyrian nor Thracian territory, before the Macedonian migration, as archaeology seems to suggest. But it also was not Greek. You see there were more cultures/peoples/tribes etc in the wider Macedonian region than just Thracians or Illyrians.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|5. My point is that the Greek element introduced into Macedonia was a model of 'elite dominance', whereby Greek speakers from south imposed themselves and their language on the territory and its inhabitants. It was upon this movement and subsequent assimilation of peoples that the Macedonians begin as a people. To simply speak of them as Greek, or not, is simplistic and wrong. It denies the complexities involved in how a people begin. They were a mixed people which became increasingly Atticised, now doubt in part due to the political ploys of the Argeads themselves. Was it not only the Royal Family which were admitted to the Olympic games, and not other Macedonians ?
|}

I really don't mean any disrespect, but as what kind of a source should I accept you? You come to a conclusion (already advocated or proposed by some historians, true) and you propose that to call them a Greek tribe is "simplistc" (yet another offensive term meant for all of us who advocate that theory and do not consider ourselves simplistic). But apart from just stating your opinion, you fail to present any archaeological or literary evidence to support it. Herodot doe NOT agree with you. Nor do Thucydides or Strabo, names you later mention. You keep on presenting the Macedonians as beginning in Macedonia. They did not. They were a FORMED people, MIGRATING/INVADING a new land... They were NOT formed in this land, so as to have to go back in time to see what the Ur-Macedonian people were... And of course based on this logic, then it is simplistic to call the Athenians Greek, since they were Pelasgians mixed with Ionians... the Lacedaemonians Greek, since they were Macedonians. Dorians, so, if it is simplistic for us to call Macedonians Greek, then how can we call the Spartans such? And this would account to ANY PEOPLE OF THE WORLD... Were the Thracians Thracian? The Illyrians Illyrian? The Turks Turk? The Goths Goth? The Slavs Slav? etc etc etc etc etc... Ethnologically categorizing a people is a procedure that takes into account many aspects, apart from the question "Did they grow out of the earth or did they 4.000 years before call themselves with a different name?".

There is absolutely NO evidence that would point to them being a mixed people, apart from suggestions, based on their proximity to other cultures. But then, the Ionians were also bordering non-Greeks, so did the Syracusans etc. Were they Greek? Of course they were. There is no evidence of any "multi cultural" or "multi ethnic" Macedonian people. No ancient writer ever suggested that. And as already explained, ASSIMILATED foreigners do NOT form a "multi ethnic" community, unless they are of a totally different race (e.g. African vs Caucasian).

As for the role of the Argeads in the "atticization" of the Macedonians, again you are making huge allowances. You are talking of a time when most of the Greek world was "atticizing". You are advocating a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence. Is there any evidence that the Argeads in any way forced their people to change their speech? Did any ancient writer ever commented on how the Argeads hellenized the Macedonians? Nevertheless, Herodot explicitly states that the Macedonians hellenized the Athenians, Strattis made fun of the Greek spoken by the Macedonians and of course there is no archaeological proof that any non-Greek language was ever written by the Macedonians, be them Argeads or not... And you confuse Argeads with the Macedonians... Even if the Argeads did try to atticize their people (an assumption that by no means would mean that their language was not Hellenic), how about the rest of the Macedonian kingdoms? You see, the Argeads, were just ONE Macedonian kingdom, there were many others... Why or how were they "hellenized" or "atticized"?

As for the Argead Royal family (again NOT the Macedonian ONLY royals...), who says that the rest of the Macedonians were NOT accepted to the Olympic games? Herodot ONLY says that Alexander's case was examined AFTER some athletes accused him of being a barbarian. What does this tell us? First, that when he applied, there was no problem, which means that normally there would have been no problem... And of course there is no saying if Macedonians took part before Alexander I. They might have they might have not. You see, scientifically , we don't know if he was the first Macedonian to take part in the Olympic Games, we just know that his participation was challenged, albeit a futile act, since the Hellanodices though otherwise. What we are certain of, is that common Macedonians have contested in the ancient Olympic Games, even if their first presence is attested after Alexander I's time. You will think that the absence of any other testimonies proves that Macedonians did not take part in the games before Alexander I, but this is not so. Although this probability is of course there, if we should categorize Hellenes, according to when we have evidence that they competed in the Olympic Games, then we would have no option but to exclude most Greeks from the Greek world. What definitely can be said is that the participation itself of royal AND non royal Macedonians proves that, at least to the eyes of their contemporary Greeks, they were counted as Greeks.
{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|
6. In addition, you would be wrong to claim that this process did not apply to other tribes. Although also disputed, some also argue that the so-called Epirotians (Chaionians, Mollosians) are Hellenized Illyrians. Even the Paeones and Thracians, which are obviously non-Hellenic, became largely Hellenized by the end of antiquity.
|}

Every Hellenic tribe was hellenized sometime in its past. Even the first Hellenes, whoever these might have been, have to have been "hellenized" sometime in their past. But comparing the Thracian hellenization to this of the Macedonians is impossible. As I have already stated, according to Herodot, even the Athenians were "hellenized" by the Macedonians... Yet, we are arguing over the hellenic identity of the Macedonians during a specific historical time and of course you have to understand that "hellenized" can have two meanings. 1. Cultural and linguistic and/or 2. Ethnical hellenization. There were many hellenized barbarians in the ancient past, but they still held to their non-Greek identities. Yet, the Macedonians had a both cultural/linguistic AND an ethnic hellenic identity, and these are, as you have accepted, facts difficult to disprove.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|7. And yes, I do suspect that established and reputable scholars still need to catch up with modern thinking about ethnicity ! The old Kossinian approach to archaelogy and the concept of Volk is hard to shake off, no matter how many current social anthropologists have argued against such outdated assumptions
|}

...well, this is your opinion, but it seems that you want to impose an ethnicity on the ancient Macedonians rather than acknowledging their right to one. In my book, when something looks like a horse, whines like a horse, tastes like horse, other people around me tell me that it is a horse and when asked replies that it is a horse, this something is most possibly a horse... The burden of evidence falls upon the person who insists it is something else.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|8. I leave with this quote Names of people may seem familiar after a thousand years, but the social, cultural and political realities covered by these names were radically different from what they are today. The real history of the nations of Europe begins in the 18th century. This is not deny that, in the past, people had notions of collective identity.
|}

... I have no problem with that unless one should use it to minimize the historical identities of given peoples.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|9. Macedonia was initially setllted by Thracians and Ilyrian groups. This is evidenced not only by the ancients’ writings who called the lands around the Axius, the Thermic Gulf, and the HEART of the future Kingdom of Macedon as Thrace [2]. Eg Strabo ‘’Wat is now Macedonia was called in earlier times Emanthia. This territory was held by certain of the Epirotes and Illyrians,, but most of it by Bottiaeans and Thracians. The Bottiaeans, they say, were from Crete by descent (sic) and of the Thracians the Pieres occupied Piera and the area by Olympus, the Paeones that by the Axius .. the Edoni and the Bisaltae the rest of the land up to the Strymon’’ (Strabo, VII, fr. II). As for the Illyrians: ‘’the archaeological evidence is clear at Verginia and in the lower Vardar valley, they were in control from some time in the 8th century BC to c. 650 BC”. Illyrian features typical of the Glasinac culture. Similarly, evidence of Thracian remains are also abundant.
|}

Strabo, VII, fr 11 (XI) and not II (2) reads : ''"What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia. '''And it took its present name from Macedon, one of its early chieftains'''. And there was also a city emathia close to the sea. Now '''a part of this country''' was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, but most of it by the Bottiaei and the Thracians. '''The Bottiaei came from Crete originally, so it is said, along with Botton as chieftain.''' As for the Thracians, the Pieres inhabited Pieria and the region about Olympus; the Paeones, the region on both sides of the Axius River, which on that account is called Amphaxitis; the Edoni and Bisaltae, the rest of the country as far as the Strymon. Of these two peoples the latter are called Bisaltae alone, whereas a part of the Edoni are called Mygdones, a part Edones, and a part Sithones. '''But of all these tribes the Argeadae, as they are called, established themselves as masters, and also the Chalcidians of Euboea; for the Chalcidians of Euboea also came over to the country of the Sithones and jointly peopled about thirty cities in it, although later on the majority of them were ejected and came together into one city, Olynthus; and they were named the Thracian Chalcidians.'''"''

Do you think that after reading the original one comes to the same conclusion as when reading the text you gave? Even this (sic) part (although an erroneous use of the latin word, still its contemporary use), clearly shows that you agree with everything except for the part of any Cretans migrating there... And of course you left out the part about the Argead tribe and that of the Chalkideans. This is why I keep saying you tend to selectively use sources.

By the way further on he also claims "Pella belongs to Lower Macedonia, which the '''Bottiaei''' used to occupy; in early times the treasury of Macedonia was here. Philip enlarged it from a small city, because he was reared in it. It has a headland in what is called Lake Ludias; and it is from this lake that the Ludias River issues, and the lake itself is supplied by an offshoot of the Axius." Strabo, VII, fr 20, the people, whose existence or origin you seem to disagree with, yet use Strabo, adopting his other accounts... Anyways...Strabo, the man who said "Macedonia is of course Greece", gives at least three accounts on what lands different people ascribe to the geographical region of Macedonia in his 7th book and of course he has no trouble stating that there were barbaric tribes living there before the Macedonians, invading into Macedonia etc etc etc. Yet, he clearly differentiates between them. Thus, I agree, as I have already stated that in the past, before the Macedonians, there were other non-Greek tribes living and prospering in these very lands, but the fact remains that these were non-Macedonians and have nothing to do with them, apart from being assimilated or ousted and forced to migrate, so I fail to see any point in this.

As for your next quote, you will have to be more specific and of course always keep in mind that Greek presence in Illyria and THrace is even more evident than that, yet noone said that Illyrians were Greeks, because Greeks lived in parts of Illyria for centuries. You have to understand that trying to link different peoples because they lived close to each other is futile. There is no people in the world without someone on the other side of the border. And borders change. But until some excavation unearths a MACEDONIAN settlement with Thracian inscriptions, a MACEDONIAN settlement of an Illyrian culture, the fact remains, that Macedonians, Illyrians and Thracians were different people.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|10. Back to Strabo: he records the expansion of Macedonians not as "Macedonians” but as ‘the so-called Argeadae’. The author suggests that the homeland of the Macedones was in the mountainous area of the Olympic mountain and the Heliacmon beneath. Theucydides account (Th. II. 99) describes their expansion into the lands of their neighbours. Both Thucydides and Herodous agree that the expansion of what later became known as the Macedones was associated with a royal house, the Temenidae of Argos in the Peloponesse (clearly Greek). Yet, the lifestyle of the Macedones was one of semi-pastoralism (akin to Vlachs), different to most Greeks. Similalry, they organized themselves into ethne – clusters of small tribes- just like the non-Greek Illyrians. In turn, the Macedonian ethne was sub-composed of Orestae, Molossoi, Perrhaebi, Lycentsae and the ‘Argaeadae’, amongst others. With the possible exception of the Mollosoi, it was only the Argaedae who claimed Greek descent. And it was only the Argaedae who participated in the Olympic games. Herodotus writes that Alexander was accepted not as a Macedonnian, but as a Temenid from Argos.
|}

There are very few things to argue here. I will just add to your analysis.

''Thucidides II.99 "Assembling in Doberus, they prepared for descending from the heights upon Lower Macedonia, where the dominions of Perdiccas lay; for the Lyncestae, Elimiots, and other tribes more inland, though Macedonians by blood and allies and, dependents of their kindred, still have their own separate governments.The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos. This was effected by the expulsion from Pieria of the Pierians, who afterwards inhabited Phagres and other places under Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon (indeed the country between Pangaeus and the sea is still called the Pierian gulf) of the Bottiaeans, at present neighbors of the Chalcidians, from Bottia, and by the acquisition in Paeonia of a narrow strip along the river Axius extending to Pella and the sea; the district of Mygdonia, between the Axius and the Strymon, being also added by the expulsion of the Edonians. From Eordia also were driven the Eordians, most of whom perished, though a few of them still live round Physca, and the Almopians from Almopia. These Macedonians also conquered places belonging to the other tribes, which are still theirs--Anthemus, Crestonia, Bisaltia, and much of Macedonia proper. The whole is now called Macedonia, and at the time of the invasion of Sitalces, Perdiccas, Alexander's son, was the reigning king."''

So, Thucidides is very cler in that there were other Macedonian tribes, other than the Argeads, with separate governments. Again the talkis of how the Pierians were expelled from their lands, the (Cretan according to Strabo) Bottiaeans. How the Edonians were also expelled, how the Eordeans were expelled and possibly slaughtered (they perished according to Thucidides) as well as the Almopians. All this has to do with your prior arguments about the Macedonians not expelling the beaten from their hearths. So, although the most successful in military affairs Macedonians were the Argeads, there were more Macedonian tribes.

I also agree with your views regarding the lifestyle of the Macedonians. It was very akin to that of the Aetolians, the Cretans of the day and of many other Greek tribes (actually most Greek tribes, who were not considered nabal powers). I urge you to compare the lifestyle of the Macedonians to that of most Greeks and pinpoint their differences. You will easily see that most Greek states were semi pastoral. Even in Attica, most people did not live within the walls of the big cities. Do some research and write me your conclusions. The same applies to what you call "clusters of small tribes", a trend, you seem to imply foreign to Greek ways and akin to Illyrian, a clear mistake. The Athenians were divided in tribes (fylai). So were the Spartans. Both were united under a common rulership but this is not the same in the cases of the Thessalians, the Boeottians, the Acarnanians, the Cretans etc. What you describe as an "Illyrian custom" is in reality the case throughout Greece, Illyria, Thrace and most other ancient peoples including the Latins, the Celts, even the Slavs, the Mongols, the Germans etc etc etc. Then you talk about the differnt Macedonian tribes, of which the Molossoi were not a part, you claim that they might avocate Greek origin, although they definitely did (from Achilles himself) and you end up claiming that the other Macedonians did not claim Greek origin and did not take part in the Olympics... How do you know? Did Herodot claim that the Macedonians migrating north were only the Argreads? Did Thucidides call any non-Argead Macedonian tribe barbarians? How do you know that Cliton, Damasias or Lampos were Argead? Did the tetxs call them Argeads? And as far as Herodot is concerned, he is the greatest advocate of te Greekness of the Macedonians in general, not only that of Alexander I.

It is Herodot who says ''“Although the one nation nowhere yet went out, the Lacedaemonian was very much wandering. For, in the time of King Deucalion, it was settled in the land of Phthia, and in the time of Dorus, the son of Hellen, in the country under Ossa and Olympus, the so-called Histiaean. From the Histiaean, after it had been expelled by the Cadmeians, it was settled in Pindus called Macedonian (Makednon kaleomenon). Thence again it changed its place to the Dryopian land, and from the Dryopian thus it came to Peloponnesus, and was called Doric.”'' (Herodot, Book I, 56.3)> Here of course he is talking about the whole Macedonian ethnos and not just that of the Argeads. He also clearly states : ''“Now these were the nations who composed the Greek fleet. From the Peloponnese, the following- the Lacedaemonians with sixteen ships; the Corinthians with the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians with fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the Troezenians with five; and the Hermionians with three. These were Dorians and Macedonians all of them (except those from Hermione), and had emigrated last from Erineus, Pindus, and Dryopis. The Hermionians were Dryopians, of the race which Hercules and the Malians drove out of the land now called Doris. Such were the Peloponnesian nations.”'' (Herodot, VIII, 43). Here Herodot,clearly makes the connection between the Macedonians and the Peoloponesians. Is there any Greek writer who criticized Herodot for any of these claims? We have countless commentaries and critical texts against so many other Greek writers... Any comments on these claims? No.

You keep jumping to conclusions. Stop trying to support your claims by any means and research the ancients more.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|11. The Macedonian ruling house spoke Greek and had Greek names, but “to speak Greek was not to be Greek in the 6th and 5th centuries, that was a matter of culture”. Hence until later, the Macedonians were considered non-Greek barbarians in early times. Clearly they had different customs, lifestyle and political organization to the rest of Greece.
|}

...Again you own opinion stretched to form an argument. You admit that the Argead House had Greek names and spoke Greek, you give some kind of a sourceless quote and you fail to add that they also claimed to be Greek, were acknowledged as being Greek, as was the case with all common Macedonians. Do you know how many thousands of named Macedonian commoners we have? Look up archives on epigraphy, signed artefacts, historical accounts. Your argument is incomplete and misguiding. Then you again clam that the Macedonians were "until later" considered non-Greek barbariasns, but you don't explain what you mean by "until later" or to who called them barbarians. You see there is absolutely NO text from before Demosthenes which even hinted at the Macedonians being barbaric. You just make a statement and present it as a fact, when in reality it is completely unsupported. About their customs, I have already commented, about their political organization I wonder... how did you draw your conclusion? Wishful thinking? Did Sparta have kings? Did Syracuse have kings? Did the Cypriot Greek cities have Kings? Some centuries before, all Greeks had kings. The first recorded according to Eusebius are the Sicyonian kings. He aslo gives us a list of the Athenian the Argives and the Corinthian kings and then those of the Macedonians, of course in a chapter about the Greeks. The thing is that you keep doing the great mistake to group all Greeks and then juxtapose then to the Macedonians. THis is a clear mistake. There are many Greek examples of a diversity in customs much more alien that the distance between Athenians and Macedonians, since I can only assume that when you are talking about Greeks you only mean the Athenians.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|12. Notwithstanding, the archaeological record is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century. Yet this Hellenization should not be thought of as a mass migration of “Greeks” from farther south, expelling non-Greeks. Rather “Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interactions. Such (sic) interactions were probably responsible for the development of the networks of contacts which facilitated the creation of similar customs”.[3] That is, the spread of a new archaeological culture need not require the implication that anyone actually moved; given that the cohesion to a material culture by certain groups might signify the acquisition of a new, higher level of identity. This is not to deny that there wasn;t some, small-scale migrations, eg of some kind of warrior-pastoralists. Herodotus and others’ semi-legendary accounts of the Argaeaeds might well be true. However, it more accurately suggests the movement of a small, new dominant clan imposing itself on other, obviously already mixed peoples. The disappearance of the previous Illyrian and Thracian cultures does not mean that those people also disappeared, but had merely adopted, or were eclipsed by, the new dominant group of the region which aspired a Hellenic cultural identity.
|}

Again, you fill these pages with unsourced quotes. You keep presenting as self evident what you cannot support with arguments. "It is clear that Macedonia was Hellenized after the 5th century"???? Clear by whom? Are you again talking about the wider region of Macedonia? The region of which less than 25% was inhabited by Macedonians prior to the 5th century BC? The rest of this text is lacking any point or significance, since it is just a personal opinion of somone who might have or might not have presented some arguments before he dared utter it. As for the violent expulsion of the formr inhabitants of these areas, I have already commented on that by bringing forward the words of Thuidides, a source you chose to refer to. Again I have to clearly state that peoples assimilated into a culture count as members of that culture, a fact that you should keep in mind, when talking about how some villages, minor tribes etc might have been assimilated into the Macedonian, Athenian or Theban culture.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|13. Thus it would be wrong to think of the Macedonians as a pre-formed people which existed in the depths of pre-history, an as yet unnoticed Greek people, biding their time. This is why there is no mention of Macedonians before 6th century BC. Clearly their origins are traced to the ascendency of a ruling group, or clan, which asserted authority over new peoples c. 6th century BC. Although the Teminids were Greek, the Macedonians were a mixed peoples.
|}

Thus, according to the literary sources we have (until you can discover new ancient texts disproving the academically acknowledged ones), the Macedonians were a pre-formed people, which existed in the depths of pre-history, as a noticed Greek people who migrated north, expelled various non-Greek tribes and claimed their lands, a branch of which later migrated south and was recorded as the Return of the Heraclidae or the Dorian Invasion, hellenized the Athenians and entered the Peloponnese, where, among others, it formed the Lacedaemonian ethnos. There is no mention of the Macedonians before the 6th century, because there are no texts originating from before the 6th century that have to do with the Greek matters. Yet, all the texts from after the 6th century, are clearly supporting that the Macedonians migrated from central Greece to their new lands long before that. Their origin have nothing to do with the ascension of the Temenids, who formed a new Macedonian kingdom among other Macedonians, who of course are also attested to have come to power long before the 6th century (another peculiar mistake on your side) and well into the 9th century BC.

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 20:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. M<ine shall be forthcoming . . . [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 21:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

OK!

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 21:43, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a brief response, because that is all which time allows me. I shall write more in a few days.

Firstly, I do not refer to you, or any others, as simple, but the synthesis of the article which focuses on whether the Macedonians were Greek or not, which might be a false dichotomy.

Secondly, we cannot take the sources at face value. Although they had a reasonable general knowledge, they were certainly no experts on geography or ethnology. The stories of expulsion of peoples are hyperboles to illustrate the object of their stories more clearly. I still maintain that there was little mass population exchange. Certainly no archaeological evidence exists for this, anywhere in Europe, apart from the initial conlonization, the post-glacial re-colonization, and perhaps during the Neolithic. According to Borza, there is little evidence to convincingly show a Greek migration into the southern Macedonia.

My ‘opinion’ about how ethnic groups formed is actually the published theory of reputable scholars. You are welcome to disagree with them. Equally, I should be able to present it.
I agree with you that I should not compare Macedonians vs ‘other Greeks’, because you’re quite right in that every region had peculiarities. But this agrees with what I say, is that there is a fine line between calling the Ancient Macedonians Greek compared to stating they might have been of proto-Greek stock.
Finally, absorption or assimilation is never a one way process, no matter how ‘advanced’on culture is, or claims to be, compared to be.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 11:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|1. |Firstly, I do not refer to you, or any others, as simple, but the synthesis of the article which focuses on whether the Macedonians were Greek or not, which might be a false dichotomy.
|}

OK! People sometimes copy paste from various aggressive sources and inadvertently bring this aggression into such a discussion. I cannot tell if this was the case here, but it sometimes happens. Anyways, no harm done!

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. Secondly, we cannot take the sources at face value. Although they had a reasonable general knowledge, they were certainly no experts on geography or ethnology.
|}

Why weren't the ancient historians expert on ethnology and geography? The ancient Greeks wee particularly interested and extremely well versed in those and other fields. They traveled, checked their sources, posed self and acknowledged opinions, recorded local customs, languages... Their motus operandi is not different from their counterparts in more modern times. Anyways, they recorded what was considered to be the truth without the DNA testing. Their approach to the ethnology of peoples of their times or their recent past is much more safer to adopt than any modern ethnologist's personal opinion, which anyways is largely based on these people's writings. How can we elaborate on the ancient Athenian culture if we do not give heed to the ancient texts? Draw conclusions from archaeological remains? Archeology can with very much difficulty describe the culture of a people. Most times it is used to fill in gaps and prove (or sometimes disprove) literary evidence.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|3. The stories of expulsion of peoples are hyperboles to illustrate the object of their stories more clearly. I still maintain that there was little mass population exchange.
|}

Why? Expulsion of peoples is what happened then, what happens now... actually it is much more problematic to propose a model in which aggressive invaders migrate to a place only to peacefully and lovingly live in harmony and cooperation with the people who used to rule over those lands, who used to work the lands, own and govern the various settlements... We do not live in a "global village", we live in countries and all counties, none excepted, have territorial claims on others, because sometime in the past their people were expelled from there (either forcefully or as a process of pressure). In these times, expulsions were even more common, due to the relative small area that each time was conquered. The first Macedonians settled in a very small area (according to our modern concept of country sizes). In a valley of maybe 1.000 sq. kms there simply was no room for them AND another tribe. They of course kept some as slaves or prisoners, but most were driven away to find other lands to settle. Ancient history is filled with such expulsions (although you could dispute them all saying that they are all exaggerations), starting with the expulsion of the Troans from Ilion.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|4.Certainly no archaeological evidence exists for this, anywhere in Europe, apart from the initial conlonization, the post-glacial re-colonization, and perhaps during the Neolithic. According to Borza, there is little evidence to convincingly show a Greek migration into the southern Macedonia.
|}

There is evidence in archaeology that has to do with the expulsion of peoples from their hearths, but then what would be a clear archaeological evidence? Burnt cities? There are many. Extinction of civilizations only to arise in a different place? Such instances exist also. Just think of what you are asking. Archaeology can help but it rarely can prove or disprove such theories or accounts. On the other hand just discrediting any written account from before the 20th century, because we do not agree with its content is a huge step you will find very difficult to make other people accept. As for Borza, although as a source he has been overquoted, you should better give his suggestions and be absolutely certain, that other suggestions of his will not emerge, supporting something different. As you yourself propose, Borza supports that "there is little evidence to convincingly show..". So 1. "little evidence", meaning archaeological evidence, which in this case would more look like the remnants of some thousands footsteps on some road from Dodone into Macedonia, convincingly dated between the 11th and 13th century BC, along with multiple sandal tags clearly stating that it was Macedonians migrating north to expel other peoples... What is the "evidence" of the Indoeuropean Invasion? How about the Dorian Invasion? And 2. "convincingly"... So, Borza does not, according to your words, disprove the literary evidence. He just states that there should be room for further theories. I agree with that. History is of course not static and new evidence might emerge even as to the Slavness or Greekness of the Chinese! But, you see, in order to produce a theory that will replace another theory as the prevalent academic opinion, it should itself present convincing data. Just proposing that these people didn't know their past and we do, that these people were not experts and we, 2,500 years later ,are not convincing arguments. Of course you have to know that even Borza (I could even comment on his nationality, but this would be cheap talk) admits that they possibly were a Greek tribe. He writes

'' “We have seen that the “Makedones” or “highlanders” of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis.”

E.N.Borza “In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon” (revised edition, 1992), page 78''

You see Borza is critical but not dismissive. As much as I disagree with many of his assumptions and deductions, he still navigates within academic credence and seriousness.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|5. My ‘opinion’ about how ethnic groups formed is actually the published theory of reputable scholars. You are welcome to disagree with them. Equally, I should be able to present it.
|}

Of course. But you should always keep in mind that presenting theories does not involve accusing the established theories. It falls on the less supported theories to prove themselves as more credible and probable.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|6. I agree with you that I should not compare Macedonians vs ‘other Greeks’, because you’re quite right in that every region had peculiarities. But this agrees with what I say, is that there is a fine line between calling the Ancient Macedonians Greek compared to stating they might have been of proto-Greek stock.
|}

If you read my words more carefully, you will see that I have not dismissed your argument based on the peculiarities of other Greek states' traditions. "Culture" comprises of more than burial customs. The culture of the ancient Macedonians was indeed Hellenic. Even if you disagree with that, which is your right,your conclusion is again incomplete, since, not being able to categorize a certain tradition as Greek does not mean that you can thus categorize it as non-Greek or proto-Greek or anything else. You should make your efforts based on more data.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|7. Finally, absorption or assimilation is never a one way process, no matter how ‘advanced’on culture is, or claims to be, compared to be.
|}

This is also partially correct. The Greek civilization of course through an assimilation process accepted many alien components, which eventually formed what we call Greek as well as what they called Greek. "Pelasgian Zeus" they called him. Nevertheless, an assimilation process concludes in somebody being assimilated into an alien culture. No matter how much he contributes to his assimilator, the end result cannot be renamed into something new, unless the influence was so great that resulted in a truly different outcome. The Macedonians assimilated whichever named or unnamed tribes, essentially converting them into Hellenes. This is what "hellenization" means. Should historians assume your position, then we would be unable to name, categorize and study any people, any time. Is there any civilization on earth which NEVER adopted anything from anyone? This is how civilizations develop. Acknowledging a minor contribution of an alien culture into an existing one does not bear the strength to revise this civilization's identity. On the other hand, if this contribution radically changes the characteristics of a given civilization, then such steps have been made. This is why, for example, we are talking about a Graecoroman civilization, about an Islamic Spain etc.

Cheers!

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 13:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

:The trouble with your arguements is that your ''fundamental assumpations'' are wrong, thereby your entire arguement is flawed, although your knowledge of the myths and legends is second-to-none.

:Your insistance that the ancient historians new exactly what they were talking about is incorrect. Yes, they ''did'' classify people according to some objective criteria. But these were overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets. We have seen this time & time again, such as the coining of terms ''Keltoi'', ''Germani'' and ''Sclaveni''. Eg archaeological evidence disproves that the people the Greeks name Celts shared any sense of unified identity. If the Greeks were wrong, or perhaps over-siplistic, about these, then why would they be right about the Macedonians. Ancient writers used second hand sources, added their own narrative techniques, and modified their stories to suit their own political stances. Hardly irrefutable evidence, although there were ''some'' grains of truth.

:Secondly, you have maintianed the disproven picture that the migrations of historic times were massive. As if an entire 'nation' just ups and moves down the road and kicks out its neighbours. I have already attempted to clarify for you that this is just not what happened. Only small groups of people moved, eg "martial" sectors, military elite, whatever you want to call them. They went and formed new groups, although they might well have carried their traditions & myths of theold group with them. The idea that an entire Macedonian tribe just packed up and moved north has little evidence to support it. The convincing proof of Macedon's existence starts from their time in lower Macedonia, a place which contained various cultural and linguistic groupings. Although the so-called Illyrian and Thracian material remains eventually end by the 5th century BC, this does not mean that the entire population was displaced. Whan a 'native' population is subdued, they eventually mixed in with the ruling caste, given that the natives were often numerically superior. If they had been killed off, then how would the new rulers collect their tribute, raise an army, and profit from agricultural surplasses ? You need to go and read some up to date books on this, my friend. Beleive me, it will improve the way you understand what a 'migration' is

:Finally, language is not the only marker of ethnicity. Much of the claims made by certain historians is that the Macedonians were Greek becasue they spoke Greek, or a dialect of it. Notwithstanding that even the theory that Macedonians was a Greek language is not universally accepted, Hammond wrote "''the men of the royal house certainly spoke Greek. They ''also'' spoke the language of their people, 'Macedonian', which contained words of early Greek origin but was not intelligible to contemporary Greeks. The Macedonians in general did not consider themselves Greeks, nor were they considered Greeks by their neighbours. ''
:The peoples of Macedonia remained a mixture, evidenced by their contrasting make - up compared to the 'gracile' build of Greeks. It was in Macedonia, and not in Argos, or Thessaly that the Macedonians solidified more compactly into a people.

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 02:24, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|1. The trouble with your arguements is that your fundamental assumpations are wrong, thereby your entire arguement is flawed, although your knowledge of the myths and legends is second-to-none.
|}

Thank you for your kind words. As you can perfectly understand, history is a collection of assumptions. The difference between mainstream history and fringe theories is the abundance and acceptance of the existing sources. The structure of the science of history is based on probability rather than direct proof. I could be a creationist and strive to prove that all is futile since it is God that made the Earth some 8.000 years ago and provide proof from the bible on things that belief alone can explain, disproving carbon dating and asserting that our forefathers walked with the dinosaurs. In history we base our assumptions on the written sources, which we intertpret, compare, sometimes stretch in search for logic, looking for proof through archaeology. What would we know of the Romans should we a priori assume that the ancient historians were wrong? What would we know of the Macedonians themselves? You see, your fundamental assumption that the Greek historians did not know what they wrote of, your discrediting them, leaves you with absolutely no arguments about the Macedonians either. If you reject the words of Demosthenes, the passages from Arrian or Curtius Rufus which you interpret as a sign that the Macedonians spoke a non Greek dialect, if you reject the history of the Macedonians as is related by Herodot and agreed on by ALL ancient sources (since all ancient writers did agree as to the identity of the Argeads by simply calling them Temenids and Argeads, by constantly repeating and not refuting that Alexander's progenitors were indeed Hercules and Achilles, since an Aeacid), then you have nothing else but archaeology. And this is when things get even tougher, because all archaeological evidence that can be attributed to the Macedonian people is purely Greek in appearance and essence. Archaeology alone, literary sources aside, shows that there was a people which called itself Macedonian in Greek and had a distinctly Greek civilization. The assumption certain individuals make that this happens only because the Macedonians were hellenized sometime before the 5th century cannot stand on archaeology alone, since there is no evidence of the same people having a different culture. The whole structure of a non-Greek Macedonian theory is based on few, albeit existent, literary sources and disproving them creates a bigger problem to you than to Greeks. For example, if you discredit the tale about Alexander I and how other athletes disputed his Greekness, then you are only left with the certainty that Macedonians did indeed take part in the Olympics, not being able to even make assumptions as to when they started, whether only royalties took part and other theories that are used to support your theory.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|2. Your insistence that the ancient historians new exactly what they were talking about is incorrect. Yes, they did classify people according to some objective criteria. But these were overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets.
|}

I do not suggest that the ancients "knew exactly what they were talking about", this I cannot say even about contemporary sources, since there are so many reasons why someone might be mistaken, but in the course of 800 years, from the 6-7th century BC to the 2-3rd century AD, they have left us with an amazing collection of books, a truly astounding wealth in knowledge that has helped us shed light into history. How do we know of the Roman history if not by the same authors? How do we know of Carthage? of the Celtiberians? of Vercingetorix and Boudicca? The same people you are trying to disprove wrote about Cyrus the Great, Artaxerxes, Brennos, king Minos...History is based on them. They were living at times mostly near to what they were describing. Of course the chance that they are right is larger than any assumption I could make. And this is why their word would be heard and more easily accepted than a theory I might devise about how they said something but in reality meant something else. Or how I know that they were mistaken, basing ny arguments not on archaeology, but on my own personal, subjective logic. Noone admits everything in literary sources. It is consensus that we are trying to locate. Demosthenes did write, according to the evidence we have from medieval manuscripts of course, that Philip was a barbarian, but we are critical, since his opinion lacks acceptance by millions of pages of acknowledged Roman and Greek text. Another account talks of Alexander having horns, another of ghosts fighting along with the Greeks at Plataea, another of Gods smiting the Gauls of Brennus in Greece with lightning and earthquakes. There is a process in admitting literary evidence as proof and even there, there is room for other opinions. But these opinions have to be based on some form of evidence, be it archaeological or historical. Just wishful thinking and gross generalizations cannot stand acceptance. Calling their historical heritage “overzealous attempts to categorize peoples into neat baskets” truly does not give them the credit they deserve. Do you think that modern historians or anthropologists work on a more scientific basis than these people did? The Greek, as well as the Roman, civilization was a culture with a passion to record and criticize. If it weren’t for them, we would stand in the dark concerning most matters on ancient history. To call the likes of Aristotle, Pythagoras, Archemides, Polybius, Strabo, Plato and so many others, overzealous pseudoscientists, whose words we should not study, since they bare no weight, is really a new historical approach that no historian advocates no matter how extreme his opinions might be. On the contrary, most historians who propose fringe theories BASE them on some obscure passage, new translation or interpretation, as does everybody who claims that the Macedonians were indeed no Greek tribe.

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|3. We have seen this time & time again, such as the coining of terms Keltoi, Germani and Sclaveni. Eg archaeological evidence disproves that the people the Greeks name Celts shared any sense of unified identity. If the Greeks were wrong, or perhaps over-siplistic, about these, then why would they be right about the Macedonians. Ancient writers used second hand sources, added their own narrative techniques, and modified their stories to suit their own political stances. Hardly irrefutable evidence, although there were some grains of truth.
|}

What you are saying about the Keltoi has nothing to do with the issue of the Macedonians. First of all, you should study those writings from the writers’ perspective, not your own, or my own for that matter. Greeks categorized different people according to their understanding, but the fact that all Keltoi should be relative tribes is nothing they claimed. For example, the term Skythes was used for ALL peoples residing over Istros to the east, regardless of possible tribal or ethnic differences. The same methodology they employed with the term Keltoi, Germanoi, even with the Slavs. When they had a concrete opinion on the culture, mythology, language etc of a nation they recorded it, but they also wrote about nations they did not know much, again, clearly making that visible. There are lots of commentaries of Greek geographers criticizing the opinions and statements of their predecessors. They brought on new data, new knowledge, they traveled and studied different cultures. Their historical and anthropological analysis had nothing to envy from modern methodologies. You are mistaken if you think that they were rigid in their opinions, that they didn’t look into things with a critical eye. They just never disputed (in the thousands of surviving texts) the opinions of Herodot, the Temenid legend and generally the Greekness of the Macedonians. Maybe such texts will be discovered in the future. But until then, the discrediting theories are subjected to strong criticism, because they are based on hints such as “We know that Herodot had traveled to Thasos. So, it is very possible that he might have crossed over to Thrace, from there pass through Macedonia and there having been subject to pressure from Alexander to write about the Greekness of himself and the rest of the Macedonians". No matter how strange you find what I wrote right now, this is ACTUALLY the main argument of Badian and Borza on why we should discredit Herodot... The fact that Herodot was not in the position to influence Greek matters, the fact that NO other Greek, Greco-Roman or otherwise relevant historian EVER (always according to our knowledge) criticized his proposed genesis of the Macedonian kingdom, the fact that ALL sources refer to Alexander, Philip and all other Temenids, as Argeads or Temenids, clearly referring to their progenitors is what makes such claims sound far fetched, this is why this theory is not widely accepted. Arrian has Alexander talk to his Macedonians about THEIR progenitor (not his), Heracles. These are not Herodot’s words, yet he, as do ALL other Greco-Roman historians clearly accepts the same theories as to the genesis of the Macedonians. Again, it is your and everyone’s right to support any theories concerning any historical event. There are Greeks who support that Mohammed was a Byzantine spy, based on some texts, which imply Byzantine infiltration in 6th century Arabia. There are Greeks who support that the Romans were in reality a Greek tribe, because it is proposed by the Romans themselves in certain texts as ONE of their possible origins. What is different as to the case of the Macedonians is that there is NO other proposed theory on their emergence.
Now, as to the possibility of having it all wrong with the Macedonians is existent, albeit minimal for many reasons. First of all, they were their neighbors, so their knowledge of them was extensive. Secondly, there was never any dispute on the words of Herodot, nor on those of Hesiod or others who wrote about the origins of the Macedonians. Thirdly, the Macedonians themselves were fierce advocates of their Greekness (fierce here denoting their persistence in being included in the Greek world, culturally, linguistically etc. If they were not Greek in the 8th or 10th century BC, they truly became Greeks by choice in the later centuries, a fact even Badian, a proponent of the barbarism of the Macedonians, does NOT refute.) You see, all supporters of the non-Greekness of the Macedonians ALWAYS strive to find arguments from BEFORE the 5th century!!!! They do not dare propose that judging from evidence after that, one can have even the slightest of possibilities that the Macedonians were not Greeks. And of course you should keep in mind, that Borza does not advocate that the Macedonians were not Greeks. He is critical, but NOT dismissive, since he clearly explains that this IS the most possible theory, yet insist that other theories can also be proposed.

You also talk about the ancients using second hand sources... well, so do most of us scholars today! Yet, if you follow the methodologies of the ancients, you will soon find out that they were obsessed with primary sources and would often criticize writers for not having witnessed themselves some events or traveled to certain places. Herodot, Arrian, Xenophon, Strabo... these people were extensively traveled. they saw most things they described with their own eyes. Don’t ever assume that the ancients had a limited knowledge of the Macedonian kingdom. They had a limited knowledge on India, on Celtiberians, on Arabs but they were perfectly acquainted with anything Macedonian. Doesn’t it strike you as a little nit odd, how most writers wrote in the Hellenistic and Roman era and yet NOT ONE called the Macedonian tyrants of Greece “barbarians”? That NOT ONE ever disputed the “fairy tales” about their “self proclaimed Greekness”, about their “unsubstantiated claims” that they had anything to do with purely Greek heroes of the caliber of Achilles and Hercules? The Macedonians were not always lenient. In the times of Polybius, a statesman of the Achaean Confederacy on top of being an important historian, the Macedonians had just lost their hold over Greece... Greece was at last free!!!! Why did he, a leader of Achaeans, NEVER accuse the Macedonians of non-Greekness among all other accusations he made against Philip V or Perseus? He clearly saw Macedonians as Greeks, although he was among the tyrannized, among those freed by the Roman gladius... Dismissing his testimony, because “he must have an agenda we don’t know about” is of course your choice, but this methodology, as already explained, will leave you with NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL about any ancient matter. And archaeology is much more difficult to be used (interpreted, distorted, manipulated, explained etc etc etc) to reach any such conclusion.

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|4. Secondly, you have maintianed the disproven picture that the migrations of historic times were massive. As if an entire 'nation' just ups and moves down the road and kicks out its neighbours. I have already attempted to clarify for you that this is just not what happened.
|}

You are claiming that “massive” migrations are a “disproved” fact. Why? Who says so? Don't the numerous examples from the Medieval times teach us that they have indeed been a fact in the world's history? What is the story of the Visigoths? the Ostrogoths? the Slav? The Viking? What is the story of the Greek colonies? the Roman migration to Lation? the colonization of Carthago? the Hebrew migration to Palestine, the Brygian migration to Asia Minor? And of course, how do you define “massive”? Over 10.000 people? 100.000? And when you are talking about a massive Macedonian invasion, of course you have to understand that we are talking about a really small migration in numbers. We have evidence and testimonies to migrations and invasions of hundreds of thousands, while the Macedonians, given the limited space they were assumed to have lived on, were much fewer in numbers. The Macedonians of prehistory are a small tribe, a mediocre one when compared to its neighbors. If you just study a little bit of (less documented) medieval history, you will become more acquainted with the process of migratory invasions and displacement of peoples. You claim you were displaced from Aegean Macedonia, Greeks claim they were displaced from Constantinople and Smyrna, the Cypriots claim they were displaced and their lands assumed by Turks from Anatolia, the Palestinians claim they were displaced, so do the native Americans from the massive migration of the Europeans, etc. The world's history is full of such events you choose to ignore or just set aside. We can discuss the process of the Macedonian migration, although I think that you will stick to your hypothesis that they indeed shook hands of friendship with the local owners of pastures and fields, towns and orchards and all together formed a great and prosperous civilization, something unheard of in history. No one talks about total displacements. If you read my points carefully, you will see that I am talking about a forceful invasion followed by forceful and/or peaceful assimilation, which in its own right is a different thing, allowing for "alien" DNA to permeate a given civilization, yet, leaving it relatively untouched in historical terms.

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|5. Only small groups of people moved, eg "martial" sectors, military elite, whatever you want to call them. They went and formed new groups, although they might well have carried their traditions & myths of theold group with them. The idea that an entire Macedonian tribe just packed up and moved north has little evidence to support it.
|}

Now, this... I can’t make much sense of... What you propose is unheard of! When did you ever read that any “military elite” migrated away from their lands, where they were lords, to find a new people which would then “adopt” them? What you are proposing roughly resembles the colonization process that took place in ancient and medieval times, but ALWAYS, these colonies were populated by commoners of the same race, since the soldiers, the craftsmen, the traders, of course also brought along their families... Even the Macedonians themselves populated their cities in the east with Greeks, they gave incentives to attract Greek populations over to their territories (you should read about the kleirouchies), so that they can base their rule on a solid basis of a kindred ruling caste. NEVER in history, was a conquering ruling class assimilate the conquered population, unless this class really was followed by masses of kindred commoners, as seems that you suggest regarding the Macedonians. If I understand you well, you are proposing that back in prehistory there might have been some Macedonian warlord, who invaded the enemy, conquered him and then established a ruling class, which for some reason was completely cut away from its homeland, although their homeland was just a day’s march to the south. Instead of incorporating this small, neighboring land to their homeland, instead of driving the owners of those fertile valleys away and give the land to his soldiers and their families, this warlord chose to send the men back on the mountains and rule over an alien people with a force of his men, who followed him without their families. At the same time, he might or might not have ruled over his former lands but for some reason, these lands were lost to him, his people disappeared and for some reason, maybe because he was a beloved and wise conqueror, his new people, not only did not slit his throat, not only did not revolt, but they also were assimilated by him... It just doesn’t work this way... When a small tribe conquered a better land, they just assumed the former residents farmsteads, houses, towns, ports, pastures, they exploited the conquered population as workers in mines and constructions, they ransomed them, they sold them for slaves to make an extra income. It is not me that I have to procure some kind of proof here... I have accepted history on my side. I have the ancient texts relating the story as I support it. I have countless historical paradigms supporting my views. It is you, who should bring forward evidence to support your theory. Just describing these theories as “new” or “modern” bears no weight, unless you can also bring evidence and of course present the extent of its support. As for evidence of a Macedonian migration, again it is up to you to bring evidence that it did not happen, not the opposite way around. There is much to suggest that migrations happened in the region, much to suggest that there was forceful expulsion and conquest, yet no videotape has yet been found to conclusively prove that sometime in prehistory, a people called Macedonians invaded the area. Can any archaeological find ALONE prove to us that Genghis Khan ever invaded Europe? Any archaeological finding that can conclusively prove that the Triballi were not indeed the ancestors of the Athenians? You are disregarding concrete archaeological evidence that the Macedonians had a purely Greek culture, yet you demand to be shown concrete archaeological evidence that a historically minor migration of a tribe took place sometime in the unrecorded prehistory. Well... we have evidence of a number of forceful events, maybe one of those has to do with the Macedonians. What is most important is the archaeological continuance of Macedonian presence well into an era when they themselves could document their Greek culture. What can be proven through archaeology is that nobody forced the Macedonians to be Greeks. They were Greeks in a time when most that had to do with the Greek culture did not yet exist! They were a clear part of the genesis of what we call Hellenic Civilization and they were the major medium, through which it spread to the world.

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|6. The convincing proof of Macedon's existence starts from their time in lower Macedonia, a place which contained various cultural and linguistic groupings. Although the so-called Illyrian and Thracian material remains eventually end by the 5th century BC, this does not mean that the entire population was displaced. Whan a 'native' population is subdued, they eventually mixed in with the ruling caste, given that the natives were often numerically superior. If they had been killed off, then how would the new rulers collect their tribute, raise an army, and profit from agricultural surplasses ? You need to go and read some up to date books on this, my friend. Beleive me, it will improve the way you understand what a 'migration' is
|}

What does anything of that have to do with the Macedonians? What if there were other tongues spoken in Lower Macedonia? First of all, let me use your own arguments... How do you know that those people did not all talk Greek? How do you know that the Illyrians did not talk in Greek? Can it be because ANCIENT GREEKS SAID SO? So was the case with the Greek states of Ionia, of Magna Graecia, of Euxinus Pontus, of Marmarica, Gaul and Iberia... So? What does the total displacement of any populations have to do with the Macedonians? They were no multiethnic state... they didn’t even use to mix with Macedonians from other Macedonian states (they did, but it was not commonplace)! If some peoples or remnants thereof were assimilated into their civilization, as did happen in ALL ancient civilizations (again, Themistocles’ and Demosthenes' mothers were barbarians, did that make them less Greek, or does that give the right to the Ukrainians to demand Athenian history?), so what? Or do you suggest that from now on we should stop using ANY ETHNIC DETERMINATION, even regarding modern nations, just because no nation is pure? Should we stop differentiating between cultures too? What you are suggesting is that there were NO MACEDONIANS, and as such no one has the right to claim the history or descendance of a people that never existed as a people. You describe them as self deluded people whose testimonies we should not take seriously, whose self determination we should reject, just because they were not genetically pure... This is also the case with Romans, Goths, Persians, all Greeks, Carthaginians, Celtiberians, Gauls, Mongols, Indians, Chinese... Should we just abandon all onomatology? Should we claim that all people can claim any history and descendance, since we either descend from Adam or from Lucy? What you are supporting cannot stand and has nothing to do with any migratory theories, it has just to do with an unwillingness to accept that regardless of purity, people in the past had an ethnic consciousness, a history, a language, a culture. As for studying "new" bibliography, I am always open, but you (again) have provided none. So, point me to the bibliography which links any migratory theories to the deprivation of the right to have certain unique identity and I promise you that I will look into it. You see, even if you understand what a “migration” is, you seem to fail to understand the process of assimilation and identity development. Can you name me ONE people who did not conquer other peoples in its entire history? To insist that this is a reason, why we should refute any identity this people developed in its history, is a really novel and interesting way to perceive history.

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|7. Finally, language is not the only marker of ethnicity. Much of the claims made by certain historians is that the Macedonians were Greek becasue they spoke Greek, or a dialect of it. Notwithstanding that even the theory that Macedonians was a Greek language is not universally accepted, Hammond wrote "the men of the royal house certainly spoke Greek. They also spoke the language of their people, 'Macedonian', which contained words of early Greek origin but was not intelligible to contemporary Greeks. The Macedonians in general did not consider themselves Greeks, nor were they considered Greeks by their neighbours.
|}

Of course not! Although it is a huge factor.... Actually most claims that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe are based on anything BUT that! On the other hand, this is the ONLY argument of those who insist that the Macedonians were not Greeks! The whole argumentation of the deniers of the Greekness of the Macedonians is based on the possibility (however distant, as its proponents themselves admit) that the Macedonians did not speak Greek before the 6th century BC! Their culture is completely Greek! Their religion, their mythology, their art, their military institutions (do you know they had hoplites before Philip introduced the sarissa?), their perception of the world, their feelings of kinship towards the other Greeks in relation to the rest of the "barbarian" world! As I have told you, details in cultural elements, such as wedding or burial customs always include peculiarities, but their culture as a whole is classified as purely Greek. And of course, you should know better than to quote Hammond, who explicitly considers the Macedonians Greek. Maybe you should read more of his books, especially the latest ones...

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|8. The peoples of Macedonia remained a mixture, evidenced by their contrasting make - up compared to the 'gracile' build of Greeks. It was in Macedonia, and not in Argos, or Thessaly that the Macedonians solidified more compactly into a people.
|}

What mixture? What contrasting make-up? Where did you find any evidence to that? Did you find ANY ancient who claimed that the Macedonian culture was "multiethnic"? Actually the cities of Athens, Corinth, Syracuse and Hallicarnassus were much more multiethnic than any Macedonian city. It does not matter where the Macedonians solidified as a people... what matters is that they boasted a Hellenic identity, a fact which cannot be refuted, however you mask it behind arguments about “political agendas”, “cultural admiration”, “unscholarly misquotes” or “lies”! Seriously now.... apart from thinking it possible yourself, where did you come across any mentioning of a multicultural Macedonia, where every ethnicity was free to express its identity? Don't mix up current situation in FYROM with ancient Macedonia... there were no "Illyrian Macedonians", “Thracian Macedonians" or “Greek Macedonians” cohabiting Pella in perfect harmony with the “ethnic Macedonians”...

[[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 18:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not proposing that literary sources are useless, merely that we should not interpret them at face-value. What you say is correct, that the evidence suggests that the Macedonians Royal house aspired a Greek identity, whether this was due to actual lineage, a political ploy or to prove their sophistication. What I am suggesting that needs to be improved in the article is the fact that at the moment it reads like a "Greek or not" debate. I propose that that the issue is more complex than that. The 'migration' spoken of by ancient historians could be an illustrative, yet simplified, account of how hellenic culture spread to Macedonia, and spawned the people of macedonia. The tale of Argos, etc, is illustrative. Just like that tale of Goths migrating from Gotium to Scythia. It is not my imagination, nor a 'fringe thoery' . Although I must admit that the quotes i am about to give are not specific to macedonians, they illustrate the general concensus of ''current'' archaeologists, linguists and pre-historians about the spread of peoples.

''Archaeologists today are much more inclined to think in terms of models of interaction, where contact between neighbouring and plitically independent communities proved influential for the devevlopment of customs and beliefs". Renfrew . ''Archaeology and Language''.

About Macedonians speaking Greek. ''Different ethnic groups can speak the same langauge''. Pg 216

"there was no need to explain culture change exclusively in terms of migration and population replacement"<ref> From Roman Provinces to Medieval Kingdoms. Archaeologists and Migrations. Pg 264</ref>. "Ethnic spreads can involve either the spread of a language to speakers of other languages or the spread of a population. '''Massive population spread or demographic replacement has probably been a rarity in human history'''"

The other question which remains is did the rest of Macedonia see itself as Hellenistic. In all probabilty, we cannot answer this question because we have little to no evidence. You doubt that the Macedonians were multi-ethnic. Ok. But the identity which the leading elite portrays does not equal that of the common peoples. This does not mean that people lived in a utopian fairy land, there were subject, slaves and rulers. But to state that a Greek people called Macedonians moved and planted themselves in lower Macedonia, as you might see, does not fit in with todays thinking about ethnogenesis.

Lastly, what was "Greek" in the 5th century BC? Greece began in the 19th century. Acribing to membership in the Greek world need not have implied being an ethnic Greek, but to have been part of the civilized world, not a ''barbarian''. Just like becoming a Christian state, or people, allowed access to the sophisticated diplomatic community of medieval Europe. To call the Macedonians Greek risks anacrhonism. The term "Greek", by its modern meaning, is a different thing to having part of the Hellenistic civilisation of Classical times. [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 05:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

== This entry is very problematic - Ancient Macedonians were ethnically much closer to Illyrians ==

I have just read the first paragraph (and only the first) of this entry on Ancient Macedonians and I have found couple of mistakes.

Let me quote from it "Whether they were of ultimately Greek origin themselves or were later Hellenized continues to be debated by some scholars, but most of them advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin."

This is not true - Ancient Macedonians were ethnically much closer to Illyrians - see some work of czech historian Antonín Bartoněk (for example his book - Odysseové na mořích historie - where it explicitly states this)

And other problematic part for encyclopedic entry is the following "..and Macedonians competed in the ancient Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only men of Greek origin were allowed to participate."

That is demagoguery, maybe even borderline propaganda. Macedonians were not allowed to compete on Olympic Games until Philip II of Macedon subdued ancient Greeks/Hellenes and enforced this privilege for Macedonians. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/90.178.190.222|90.178.190.222]] ([[User talk:90.178.190.222|talk]]) 11:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 

:Your comment doesnt make sense. The quote you provided refers to the debate between the vast majority of scholars and you stick to the perception of a single one. Honestly this Czech historian is not even noteworthy and certainly not one of the leading authorities among scholars in relation to ancient Macedonian history. There is no ancient literary account verifying your assumption "ethnically much closer to Illyrians". If anything ancient sources always described them as two distinct, hostile people. Since there were Macedonians who participated in Olympics prior to Philip's era obviously your accusations about "demagoguery" and "borderline propaganda" are rather clumsy. [[User:Johnaldinho|Johnaldinho]] ([[User talk:Johnaldinho|talk]]) 19:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

So you have counted opinions of all scholars dealing with this issue, and you are absolutely 100% positive that majority consensus is that Macedonians were of Greek origin? That is nonsense my friend. I have no stack in this as I am czech, but I see that you are greek so it may be difficult for you to look objectively on this issue. BTW: that author surely is worthy of mentioning, he is quite authority on this field - he is classical philologist - So he has good insight into this - in that book he is dealing also with differences in languages used by Ancient Macedonians and their Greek neighbors (BTW: do you know what was the macedonian form of the name of Philip II of Macedon? (Hint: no it surely wasnt Phillippos - and in this you can find one of the many Macedonian-Illyrian connection). Among other universities Bartonek lectured even on Cambridge. (Albeit his main expertise is Mykenology - I will give you that)

About Macedonians who participated in Olympics prior to Philip's era - being intellectually disshonest again? Let me ask you this way - were regular Macedonians allowed to compete on Olympics, before Phillip's conquest? No they were not. There might have been some exceptions, like is the case with some Thracians. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/90.178.190.222|90.178.190.222]] ([[User talk:90.178.190.222|talk]]) 12:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC) 

First of all, you should make an account. Discussing with IPs is always a little bit awkward and sometimes used by existed users to push their opinions. Then you can search the already lengthy articles that address these issues in detail. Going again and again over the same discussions is a little bit tiresome. Yet, if you cannot find an answer regarding your objections, I will compile you one. Lastly, look for more sources, since trying to persuade a schooled crowd of the prominence of a fringe theory is impossible. First you have to be able to prove that what you are advocating is no fringe theory but a widely accepted alternative. Last, but no least, be ready to support your claims. An argument such as "regular Macedonians were not allowed to compete on Olympics before Phillip's conquest" will be questioned and you will have to provide for. So, find one ancient source which proposes that and you may have a case. Present a modern historian who proposes that and you have an easilly disputed theory. Anyways.. if you want to make a case, compile your sources, look in our prior discussions for answer and then we can get down to it. By the way... since you are a Czech, why are your only 3 contributions in this discussion page? (no disrespect meant, only to show you how easy it is for your motives to be questioned) [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 14:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

== Olympic Games ==

I am removing the statement that only Greeks were allowed to compete in the Olympic games because many competetors were NON-Greeks, including Romans, Macedonians, Thracians, and Armenians:
* Tiberius (steerer of a four-horse chariot)[15]
* Nero (steerer of a ten-horse chariot)
* Varastades, Prince and future King of Armenia, (last known Ancient Olympic victor (boxing) during the 291st Olympic Games in the fourth century.
[[User:Mactruth|Mactruth]] ([[User talk:Mactruth|talk]]) 05:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

:That was much much later, after the Roman conquest (146 BC). Originally, only Greeks were allowed to compete. The sources also tell us that the kings of Macedon were allowed to compete as far back as the 5th century BC. What are you trying to do here? Do you think it's not obvious? --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 06:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

== Precedence and weasel words==

As the article is about '''Ancient''' Macedonians and modern research is based on '''ancient''' material, why "modern discussions" section takes precedence over the original ancient sources? Also, as per [[WP:AWW]], the use of "some people say" is discouraged. The bits about "some scholars" debating their identity, need work. They give the wrong impression. '''Most''' scholars (practically all of them) do not debate on this. In addition, theories of people like Eugene Borza have been disproved (many works by him, are dated '''before''' [[Manolis Andronikos|Andronikos]]' discovery of Philip II's tomb) and are not accepted by the vast majority of the scientific community. He is not even a serious scholar, by any standards ([http://scholar.google.gr/scholar?as_q=&num=20&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=Eugene+Borza&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=some&as_subj=soc&hl=en&lr=&safe=off example]) and he retired. I'll give some time to debate on this and then we'll decide on how to proceed with '''needful''' changes. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 22:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
:Adding [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza this] bit by Borza, since his statements or "statements" are conflicting. '''The "highlanders" or "Makedones" of the mountainous regions of western Macedonia are derived from northwest Greek stock [...] the origin of the Macedonians lies in the pool of proto-Greek speakers [...]'''. Again, I'm not editing anything right now; I'll wait for others to comment on this.[[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 01:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
::Just a friendly reminder. This will be edited soon. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 01:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Your summary of Borza, as so often, confused the concepts of "being Greek" and "being of (proto-)Greek stock". Read more closely: only for a nationalist ethnic essentialist would these two concepts mean the same thing. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:Just a friendly reminder: you've been told repeatedly to watch your language and others above me take notes. You certainly have a thing going on, with people not in agreement with your POV. Wikipedia is not anyone's personal playground. FYI, Borza's hypotheses before and after Andronikos' discoveries, are conflicting and in due time, this is going to be demonstrated here, with academic references. As for the statement, try not to distort everything by misquoting, in order to prove your POV. "Greek stock" is about the origins of the people. "Proto-Greek speakers" is a language pool with people from different stock (that were eventually hellenized). To illustrate this, several Africans belong in the french language pool, but they're not French. Stock is the walking, language is the talking. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:Let's not play word games. You [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAncient_Macedonians&diff=287266270&oldid=287234123 changed] "do" with "would", after my response. Rephrasing changes everything. If this was a honest mistake from your side, I accept it. Nevertheless, I hope we clarified things about stock and language, walking and talking :) [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 15:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:: Well, call it a clarification. I don't know if you think in essentialist terms (many people do, without being aware of it); if you don't, then you probably just weren't reading the Borza passage very carefully. Apart from that, no, I don't think we have clarified the issue; you apparently still don't understand the point. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 15:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Interesting. Well, I'll assume good faith. But you're right, we haven't clarified the issue as you don't seem to understand the humongous difference between stock and language.[[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 16:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

::::Yaoza, yaoza '''FPatS''' (can I call you Fpats for short?), how many times '''did''' SQRT...etc summarise Borza? Was it really ''''so''' often'? And is he really a nationalist ethnic essentialis? Otherwise, you are batting on a sticky wicket dear chap, your above comment makes <s>little</s> no sense. And SQRT...etc, I am sure changing 'do' with 'would' was just a friedly geasture, nah, probably not :-( [[User:Politis|Politis]] ([[User talk:Politis|talk]]) 16:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT5P1D2... your personal opinion doesn't matter, so don't waste space writing it. The fact that modern Balkanologists frequently use him as a source would in any case discredit your opinion [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 14:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
:I took the liberty to correct my nickname. I hope you don't mind. As for the rest: indulge us. [http://scholar.google.gr/scholar?as_q=eugene+borza&num=20&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=1993&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=some&as_subj=soc&hl=en&lr=&safe=off Here] are Google Scholar's results after 1993 (the official recognition of the state with the provisional name FYROM). The results include him as an author, as well as citations. There are 65 results, some of them irrelevant. I don't see any huge ''modern'' following. If you want more analysis, use [http://www.thomsonreuters.com/products_services/scientific/Arts_Humanities_Citation_Index AHCI] and surprise yourself about Borza's impact. He's nothing more than a fringe historian. That's not what I think, but what the academic community thinks. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 18:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT5P1D2... Eugene Borza is not "fringe", as much as you would like him to be. The new book, just out... "Macedonian Legacies: Studies in Ancient Macedonian History and Culture in Honor of Eugene N. Borza" might be a clue for you. Included are articles by Anson, Carney, Burstien, and Paglia amongst others. It behooves you to counter his views rather dismiss him as fringe, because he does not bolster your POV. My university professors, as well as most other courses that touch on ancient Macedon would be surprised to hear he is considered fringe. Thank you. Gingervlad--[[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 17:08, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

:well put. Not to mention that SQRT5P1D2 based his claim on a "Google search". Doesn't even warrant discussion [[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 12:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
::Hello and sorry for not responding earlier, as I was abroad. The "fringe" is what the academic community now thinks. His influence is marginal and his controversial, conflicting newer claims (surprisingly, there is a shifting pattern during the last two decades, despite evidence to the contrary) are repeatedly disproved. Regarding the "Google" thing, Google '''Scholar''' is public. If someone wants more information and has access, the Arts and Humanities Citiation Index is [http://www.thomsonreuters.com/products_services/scientific/Arts_Humanities_Citation_Index here].
::About points of view and arguing, as I'm involved in the Macedonia 2 arbitration case, I restricted myself from editing Macedonia-related articles. As this case enters the resolution phase, you can expect much more involvement from my part. Some drafts are already being made, with numerous past and present academic references. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT, again it is you that needs to show that Borza is considered fringe by those who work and study in his field of expertise. Please demonstrate where his influence is marginal and by whom? I did post on the Borza talk page with examples showing that he IS widely regarded. What evidence has been repeatedly disproved and by whom? What are the controversial new claims? Are you talking about the dating of Tomb II? Where has that been disproved? If you are going to say he is marginal and controversial (in the international community) it is on you to show this. Simply saying it does not make it so. And for comparison, Hammond could have the same thing said about him...but I never would. His contributions have been monumental. Where he is incorrect in his assessments, or there is disagreement..it doesn't require stating that he's "fringe". The same respect should be given to Borza. And as I pointed out, he is getting it in the form of the festschrift.

It is extremely unfortunate for him that some on the hypernationalist competing Macedonia websites (who can tell them apart doing a web search...until clicking them, one finds that they fall on either side of the ridiculous situation) have appropriated his work and misused it..it put a target on his back for the other side of the ridiculous situation to go after. Sadly I have watched this for a number of years. And I see it here.

AS I said, the academic community I know certainly does NOT consider Borza fringe. A google search does not show any "fringe" tendencies. Rather, if you want him dismissed as "fringe"..you need to show actual members of the academic community calling him so. I realise that you are in the midst of the arbtiration. But when it is over, you really must "show your work". This has pulled me out of long and dispirited lurking mode. gingervlad. [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 14:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:Hello Gingervlad. Of course, when the case is over and we have established guidelines, I'll focus on the articles. For now, just to keep you interested in Borza and his newer claims, you can read these [http://macedonia-evidence.org/identity.html] [http://macedonia-evidence.org/macedonian-tongue.html]. Spicing it up a bit, [http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html here's] a recent list with more than 200 scholars, speaking with one voice. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 23:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Borza is not fringe, yet Borza does admit that the predominant theory about the origin of the ancient Macedonians is that they were of Greek stock. He just proposes that other theories (as always history is naught but a collection of educated theories) cannot be easily eliminated, as do we here in Wikipedia. Nevertheless, probability is the key point here, since as far as theories (better supported than the one that has the Macedonians not speaking Greek before the 5th century BC) are concerned the Romans were also of Greek stock and the Athenians were hellenized barbarians (since there is yet another controversy as to whether the Pelasgians were of Greek stock or not). Other theories have a Cretan clan having migrated to Macedonia even before the Macedonians, the Thracians being of proto-Greek stock (although clearly described in the ancient texts as barbarians), the Illyrians having been completely eliminated by late antiquity, Egyptian and Phoenician migrations taking place in prehistoric Greece, the Greek alphabet being derived from the Phoenician one, the Phoenician alphabet being derived from the Greek one, the civilization of Knossos being non-Greek, the civilization of Knossos being definitely Greek, etc etc etc etc... Please, stop using Borza as a source which provides a definite conclusion, for you all know that he does not, so this whole conversation is pointless. Borza stands for none of the above POVs. His theories are considered possible, yet the probability of the Macedonians not being of Greek stock low, albeit existent... [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 17:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
:Allow me a correction: his ''newer'' theories, are not considered possible, especially in the light of more recent archaeological findings. Stating the greekness of ancient Macedonians in his older works, is stating the obvious. For a preview, I suggested these [http://macedonia-evidence.org/identity.html] [http://macedonia-evidence.org/macedonian-tongue.html] in my above comment. I understand that he was a favorite of the Slavic side, until they read [http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Il3C_PAhgz0/SW3LzMFk9mI/AAAAAAAAAmQ/RJyicXqgV3E/s400/borza3.jpg this]. Some are still blissfully unaware of it and they keep mentioning him as a credible source. They are also unaware of Alexander's victory in Granicus ("Alexander, the son of Philip and the Greeks..."), which ends every discussion. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 23:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

:SQRT..what newer theories..and how are they considered not possible? As for dragging the modern situation into a talk page about history millennia old..this is precisely what shouldn't be done. It is neither here nor there in regards to this. If one of your counterparts from "the other side" were to post something in the same vein, I would call them on it as well. Again, though, I ask you to actually name the "newer" theories before you dismiss them and the new discoveries that render whatever the newer theories are. As for the Macedonia-evidence site, sadly, once again, a specific agenda driven site rehashing the same tired argument about the MODERN situation showing us that, yes, the modern nation of Macedonia is doing something (and perhaps that link and your discussion about modern Slavs belongs in the article about the modern nation of Macedonia...why is that here on the talk page of "Ancient Macedonians"? The letter from the scholars is great and the articles from Hatzopoulos from 1999 and 2002 are nice to read again, but what does that have to do with information for 2500 =/- years ago? Seriously..., in regards to this article, who cares! Your comment certainly renders your neutrality moot.

:: (edited to fix paragraph) I've no horse in that race. I'm not a Slav. Nor a Greek. Just someone who finds the ancient Macedonians and the Hellenistic period interesting. Again, though, it isn't sufficient to simply state something vague and then throw up yet another link to yet another website about a modern pi***ng match. Sorry if that seems rude, however, your problem with Borza seems to be that his work has been appropriated by your "enemy". If there is some Illyrian or Thracian mix in the ethnogenesis of the Macedonians, why does this threaten you? It would make perfect sense that a proto-Greek population in close proximity would also absorb some influence from it's northern neighbours.
::Are you are talking about his, and others, as well, view on the occupants of Tomb II? gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 00:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

:::I thought about not granting this comment with a response, due to rudeness and jumping to conclusions ("information from 2,500 years ago", "pissing match", "enemy", "threaten"). But it would be rude not to respond.
:::Anyway, scholars in History and Archaeology work with information from ancient times. If you are aware of a different working method, please enlighten us. The ''real'' test of an academic is ''how'' to collect bits of information and present a valid theory. Theories can be proved and disproved. Acceptance by other members of the academic community, shows one's ''impact''. This is not a vague concept: there are tools to measure one's impact. When your low-probability (so to speak of) non-consistent theories are disproved and have marginal impact on other scholars of our era, that's ''fringe''. Poor choice of a word? Don't like the word? Substitute with a synonym.
:::If you do have any counter-arguments after reading Hatzopoulos' articles (mentioning Borza's newer claims, since he took a U-turn in some matters during the last two-three decades), please present them here. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

::::SQRT, I agree THIS article should deal with information +/-2500 years ago. Which is why I object to your bringing the modern politics into it, which you have with that whole link. There were no Slavs, no Greek national government. You misread my point. We should ONLY be dealing with information that addresses those 2500 years ago. As for my rude words. Apologies for you taking that personally. After all this discussions in the arbitration I would think you would understand why this would be objectionable in an ancient context, where none of this ever existed..and introducing it only further serves to drag this article into it. There shouldn't even be a mention of the Slavic people on this page. Nor should the misappropriation of Borza by them (or ANY scholar by either side) be an issue. It has NOTHING to do with it, in this context. If you have other links that don't involve the modern conflict that is great. Hatzopoulos is an extremely good source (though not the only one). A POV site should not be, though that one will be interesting to watch if scholars other than Miller contribute. It is his site, he owns the domain. Who is behind it and why don't they identify themselves? Do you understand what I am saying here? I would say the exact same thing to anyone who pushed a pro-ROM (for your clarity), Albanian, Bulgarian, etc, etc...they just are not as pervasive. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 16:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

GK1973. A fair assessment of Borza. And much more productive. This kind of post can lead to a better consensus than outright dismissal. Thank you. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 19:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

So as not to be misunderstood... SQRT5P1D2, Borza accepts that the probability of the Macedonians being essentially Greeks (not just proto-Greeks) is much higher than any other alternative he proposes. He even says that would it be possible to establish the exact form of the Macedonian speech before the 5th century, it would be much easier to come to a definite conclusion (modern findings already point at Greek here too...). The other alternative he proposes, he mostly uses to cover the possibility of Herodotus' account of the Macedonian invasion to be false or misunderstood. Most scholars nowadays are firm in their belief that the Macedonians spoke Greek and were as Greek as the Thessalians or the Thebans (most have to understand here that all this fuss about the Macedonians being different because of their governmental system or the rural, pastoral society is pointless, since kingship is not alien to Greek matters of the time, especially to Dorian-Macedonian (according to Herodot) states and that most Greek states of the Greek peninsula were pastoral and NOT maritime). Yet, alternative theories such as Borza's do exist and are NOT considered fringe but of a very low probability to depict the actual truth. It is true that these theories were much more widespread before the mid 20th century, when archaeology in the region was not yet as developed as it is today. Most scholars did not have access to all the classical texts we have today, so they missed much of our ability to compare and juxtapose a huge collection of ancient (seemingly relevant or irrelevant) texts, so as to arrive to safer conclusions. It is very easy to misunderstand (and mistranslate) ancient Greek texts, if you try to do the job based on nowadays English, Greek or any other way of expression, especially when it comes to matters of "ethnicity", "language", "affiliation" etc. Anyways... as I have already mentioned, history is a collection of theories, not axioms, and we strive to categorize them by probability. Archaeology sometimes helps, sometimes even makes things more difficult. Being absolute is most times a mistake, yet on the other hand, giving too much credence or weight on low probability theories is also a mistake. As you can see, I am also a strong proponent of the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians, yet attacking Borza or blindly refusing even the remote probability of alternative theories to be (even partially) correct is not to my liking. They are based on a centuries old bibliography which denotes some existent weaknesses in the primary sources. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 10:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:Great. But we're talking about a living person. He also has access to research and evidence from the last three decades. His current scientific impact is minimal. His current views are marginal. His theories are disproved. Low probability? Alternative? Your choice of words. I prefer to be blunt about this person's work (NOT about the person). Read also my comment above. Also, if you read greek, get "Philologos" issues 134 and 135. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 12:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

We actually agree in essence. I just disagree with your calling Borza fringe. Alternative theories are not always fringe, nor is the one that the ancient Macedonians MAY have been non-Greeks hellenized sometime between the 9th and the 6th century BC. Do not forget that according to Herodot the Athenians were barbarians hellenized by the Macedonians, during the so-called Dorian invasion (According to Herodot, Pelasgians were barbarians). Does this make Athenians less Greek? Or should we find a Greek "Lucy", an ancestor to every Greek there ever was? Borza does not dispute the Hellenic identity of the Macedonians in the historic years of Greek antiquity, he is talking about times we and he, unfortunately, know very little about. What I am trying to say is that not being included in the Danaoi of the 12th century BC does not exclude someone from the Greek world in the 6th century BC. Macedonians were certainly a Greek people AT LEAST since the 6th century BC (according to archaeological finds and supporting literature). Yet, we cannot tell what was the case before that. According to myth the Macedonians moved to the area sometime in the 9th or 10th century BC, yet the area (of early Macedonia) was inhabited long before that from peoples we cannot really identify and conclusively categorize. [[User:GK1973|GK1973]] ([[User talk:GK1973|talk]]) 12:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
:Excellent points, again, GK1973. gingervlad [[User:Gingervlad|Gingervlad]] ([[User talk:Gingervlad|talk]]) 16:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

'And for comparison, Hammond could have the same thing said about him...but I never would. His contributions have been monumental. Where he is incorrect in his assessments, or there is disagreement..it doesn't require stating that he's "fringe" - Gingervlad

Ah but you're too late! This has already happened but for a different reason, of course: Hammond's argument that the Macedonians were Greek-speaking. And no no no, don't think you can slip away so easily just because you're an "outsider"! We've had "neutrals" tell us that really, O. Masson "isn't that great" because the "Greek character of the Macedonian onomasticon is obvious" to him. It's somewhat close to insanity, isn't it? One envisages articles in such areas (Macedonia is, unfortunately, not the only one) that would please most, if not all, editors. ;P [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 00:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

==Tag==

''This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please improve this article if you can. (May 2009)''

I agree with whoever placed this. I have been trying to improve this article for some time. I propose that we integrate the 'ancient sources' and modern theories. There is no need to present them seperately. They can be combined into a common thesis.

Secondly, let's stop trying to prove and disprove things. Specifically, regarding the origins, the section should start off with the most commonly accepted current theories, mention supposed geographic origins, as well as presumed ethnic and linguistic background of the makedones and the regions as a whole. Then we should add clarifiers and caveats to the above theories as expressed by mainstream authors. Just present the info, and leave it at that (rather than trying to enforce our own conclusions onto the article and readers).

[[User:Hxseek|Hxseek]] ([[User talk:Hxseek|talk]]) 23:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks, I added the tag for obvious reasons; you missed the addition during the "embargo", which was unfortunately a necessary one for [[WP:SYNTH]] reasons. ;). [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 00:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonians

2009-05-04T18:14:01Z

3rdAlcove: I removed that, please do see previous rationale. come on already, people.

{{dablink|This article is about the people of [[ancient Greece]]; for the unrelated modern [[Slavic peoples|Slavic]] ethnic group see [[Macedonians (ethnic group)]].}}
[[Image:Macedon2.JPG|thumb|200px|right|The expansion of the ancient Macedonians in 4th century BC.]]

The '''Macedonians''' ({{lang-el|Μακεδόνες}}, ''Makedónes'') were an ancient tribe which inhabited the alluvial plain around the rivers [[Haliacmon]] and lower [[Vardar|Axius]], north of [[Mount Olympus]] in [[Greece]]. Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a [[Ancient Greek dialects|Greek dialect]] or a distinct language, came to belong to the [[Koine Greek]]-speaking population in the [[Hellenistic period]]<ref>Sociolinguistic Variation and Change
By [[Peter Trudgill]] ISBN 0748615156, 9780748615155 Page 125</ref>. Whether they were of ultimately [[Greeks|Greek]] origin themselves or were later [[Hellenization|Hellenized]] continues to be debated by scholars. The [[Macedon]]ian royal family, known as the [[Argead dynasty]], claimed Greek descent from [[Argos]] in the [[Peloponnese]]<ref>[[Herodotus]]. ''Histories'', 5.20.4, 5.22.1, 9.45.</ref><ref>[[Arrian]]. ''Anabasis Alexandri''. Book II, 14, 4.</ref><ref>[[Quintus Curtius Rufus]], "Historiae Alexandri Magni", 6.3.11.</ref><ref>[[Polybius]]. ''The Histories'', 7.9.4, 18.4.8.</ref> (thus the name [[Argead]]) and Macedonians competed in the [[ancient Olympic Games]], an athletic event in which only men of Greek origin were allowed to participate<ref>Pausanias. ''Description of Greece'', [http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias5A.html 5.8.11].</ref>

==Origins==
{{clean-up}}
===Modern discussions===
Some modern writers{{Fact|date=May 2009}}, such as [[Eugene N. Borza]], argue that the ancient Macedonians underwent [[ethnogenesis]] synthesizing [[Culture of Greece|Greek]] as well as [[Thraco-Illyrian]] cultural elements. Other scholars, such as [[Nicholas Hammond (historian)|Nicholas Hammond]], argue that the language of the ancient Macedonians was a pure but specific form of Greek until 4th century BC when it was eventually amalgamated with common Greek.<ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''A History of Macedonia: Volume II: 550-336 B.C.'' Oxford University Press, ISBN 0198148143. </ref>

Regarding the Macedonians' geographic origins, one theory suggests that they occupied the mountainous area of [[Orestis (region)|Orestis]], near present-day [[Kastoria]], and the valley of the [[Haliacmon]] river, in the first millennium BC.<ref>Dunstan, William E. ''Ancient Greece''. Wadsworth Pub. Co., 2000, ISBN 0155073834.</ref> From 8th century BC or early 7th century BC, Macedonians, in their struggle to found a kingdom migrated eastward whereby they subjugated and expelled the earlier Illyrian, Thracian and Paeonian inhabitants and other Greek tribes, or mingled with them.<ref>Fine, John V.A. ''The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History''. Harvard University Press, 1983, ISBN 0674033116. </ref><ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''A History of Greece to 323 BC''. Cambridge University, 1986. </ref>

In 19th century scholarship, it was argued that the Macedonians possibly had an [[Illyrians|Illyrian]] or [[Thracians|Thracian]] rather than a Greek origin. Professor [[William Mitchell Ramsay]] considered the Macedonians as a tribe of [[Thrace]], the land north-east of Greece, akin to the [[Thracians]]. [[George Rawlinson]], stated that the Macedonians were a mixed race, not [[Paionia]]ns, Illyrians or Thracians, but of the three, closest with the Illyrians. Various "mixed" scenarios (e.g. Greco-Illyrian) have also been proposed.<ref>Dunstan, William E. ''Ancient Greece''. Wadsworth Pub. Co., 2000, ISBN 0155073834.</ref><ref>Green, Peter. ''Alexander of Macedon 356-323 BC: A Historical Biography''. University of California Press, 1992, ISBN 0520071662.</ref>

Following the archaeological discoveries of the 20th century, numerous modern scholars now advocate the opinion that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin which to this day remains the most common consensus.<ref name=GreekOrigin>A. R. Burn, ''Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Empire'', Macmillan, 1948; George Cawkwell, ''Philip of Macedon'', Faber & Faber, London, 1978; Francois Chamoux, ''Hellenistic Civilization'', Blackwell Publishing Professional, 2002; Victor Ehrenberg, ''The Greek State'', Methuen, (July 2000); Malcolm Errington, ''A History of Macedonia'', University of California Press, February 1993; Alan Fildes and Joann Fletcher, ''Alexander the Great: Son of the Gods'', Getty Trust Publications, J. Paul Getty Museum, 2004; John V.A. Fine, ''The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History'', Harvard University Press, 1983; Robin Lane Fox, ''Alexander the Great''; Jonathan M. Hall, ''Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity'', Cambridge University Press, 1998; N G L Hammond, ''A History of Greece to 323 BC'', Cambridge University, 1986; Archer Jones, ''The Art of War in Western World'' (University of Illinois Press, 2000); Robin Osborne, ''Greek History'', Routledge, 2004; Jacques Pirenne, ''The Tides of History Vol. 1'', E. P. Dutton, 1962; Michael M. Sage, ''Warfare in Ancient Greece'', Routledge; Chester G. Starr, ''A History of the Ancient World'', Oxford University Press, 1991; Hilding Thylander, ''Den Grekiska världen'', (Svenska humanistiska förbundet, 1985); Arnold J. Toynbee, ''The Greeks and Their Heritages'', Oxford University Press, 1981; Ulrich Wilcken, ''Alexander the Great''; Ian Worthington, ''Alexander the Great'', Routledge, 2002.</ref> Systematic excavations at [[Aiani]] since 1983 have brought to light finds that attest the existence of an organised city from the [[2nd millennium BC]] to 100 BC. The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black-and-white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far.<ref name=BritannicaMac>{{cite web
| url = http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/260307/84137/Ancient-artifacts-that-have-been-discovered-in-Aiani-prove-that#default
| title = Encyclopedia Britannica - Hellenism in Macedonia}}</ref><ref name=AegeoBalkanHistory>Karamitrou-Mentessidi, Georgia. "[http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/article.php?id_art=6 The Late Bronze Age in Aiani]". 16 March 2007. ''Aegeo-Balkan Prehistory''.</ref> Found with [[Mycenaean Greece|Μycenaean]] [[sherd]]s, they can be dated with certainty to the [[14th century BC]].<ref name=BritannicaMac /><ref name=AegeoBalkanHistory /> The findings also include some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia, among them inscriptions bearing Greek names like ''Θέμιδα'' (Themida). The inscriptions demonstrate that the society of [[Upper Macedonia]] spoke and wrote Greek before the [[5th century BC]].<ref name=BritannicaMac />

===Ancient sources===
The pseudo-Hesiodic [[Catalogue of Women]] lists the mythical progenitor and [[eponymous]] ancestor of the Macedonians, [[Makednos]], as a descendant of [[Deucalion]]'s daughter [[Thyia]] and [[Zeus]] thus excluding him from direct descent via [[Hellen]]. On the other hand, [[Hellanicus of Lesbos]]' later genealogy lists Makednos as the son of [[Aeolus]] and thus a grandson of Hellen.<ref>{{cite book |last= M. Hall |first= Jonathan |title=Hellenicity: Between Ethnicity and Culture |year=2002 |publisher= The University of Chicago Press |isbn= 0-226-31330-1 |page=165}}</ref>

[[Herodotus]] provides the chief traditions on the origins of the Macedonians, from whom he claims originate the Dorians, when he describes the history of the Lacedaemonians. He writes in the first book of his ''[[Histories (Herodotus)|Histories]]'' that the Macedonians were a [[Greeks|Greek]] tribe left behind during the great [[Dorian invasion]]:<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&loc=1.56.3 1.56.1].</ref>{{cquote|...for during the reign of [[Deucalion]], [[Phthia]] was the country in which the [[Greeks|Hellenes]] dwelt, but under [[Dorus]], the son of [[Hellen]], they moved to the tract at the base of [[Mount Ossa (Greece)|Ossa]] and [[Mount Olympus|Olympus]], which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of [[Pindus]]. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopia having entered the [[Peloponnese]] in this way, they became known as [[Dorians]].}} On the origins of the Macedonian Royalty, Herodotus holds a record about the youngest of three brothers from [[Argos]], and how he, through his skill in accepting omens, tricked an oppressive monarch out of his kingdom. The story apparently describes the genealogical connection between the Macedonian royal house (or Macedonians in general) and legendary Greek heroes. This theory was fully accepted among the scholars of antiquity.<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%231446;layout=;loc=8.137.1 8.137].</ref>

Herodotus mentions in other points of his work the Greek origin of the Macedonians, paralleling them with the Dorians:<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&loc=8.43 8.43.1].</ref>{{cquote|...from the [[Peloponnese]], the [[Lacedaemon]]ians... the [[Ancient Corinth|Corinthians]]... the [[Sicyon]]ians... the [[Epidaurus|Epidaurians]]... the [[Troezen]]ians... the [[Ermioni|Hermione]]ans. All these, except the people of Hermione, were of Dorian and Macedonian stock and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region.|}}

[[Pausanias]], in his work ''[[Description of Greece]]'' states that the Macedonians took part in the [[Amphictyonic League]], which was an association of ancient Greek tribes formed to protect a specific temple or sacred place. In 356 BC when [[Phocians]] captured and sacked [[Delphi]] and a sacred war was declared against them, they were expelled from the league, and their two votes were given to Macedonians who had helped to defeat them. <ref>Pausanias, Description of Greece, 10.8.2 - 10.8.4 [http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html]</ref>

{{cquote|They say that Amphictyon himself summoned to the common assembly the following tribes of the Greek people: [[Ionians]], Dolopes, [[Thessalians]], Aenianians, [[Magnesians]], Malians, Phthiotians, [[Dorians]], [[Phocians]], [[Locrians]] who border on [[Phocis]], living at the bottom of Mount Cnemis. But when the Phocians seized the sanctuary, and the war came to an end nine years afterwards, there came a change in the Amphictyonic League. The Macedonians managed to enter it, while the Phocian nation and a section of the Dorians, namely the [[Lacedaemonians]], lost their membership, the Phocians because of their rash crime, the Lacedaemonians as a penalty for allying themselves with the Phocians [...] The Amphictyons today number thirty. [[Nicopolis]], Macedonia and [[Thessaly]] each send six deputies.|}}

[[Polybius]], in his work ''[[The Histories (Polybius)|The Histories]]'', describes the treaty made between [[Hannibal]] and [[Philip V of Macedon]], implying that Macedonians shared the same religion with the rest of Greeks:<ref>Polybius. ''The Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=7.9.4 7.9.4].</ref>{{cquote|This is a sworn treaty made between Hannibal... on the one part; and Xenophanes, son of Cleomachus of [[Athens]], sent to us by King Philip... The oath is taken in the presence... of all the gods who rule Macedonia and the rest of Greece|}}

Polybius relates the racial kinship between Aetolians, [[Achaeans]] and Macedonians in the speech of Lyciscus the Acarnanian addressing Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, the Aetolian envoys, at the assembly of Sparta:<ref>Polybius. ''The Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=9.37.2 9.37.2].</ref>

{{cquote|Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood with yourselves, and with Philip their leader.|}}

During antiquity, the Greekness of the Macedonians was famously disputed by [[Demosthenes]], the leader of the anti-Macedonian party in Athens and sworn enemy of Philip II. His words, often perceived as an effort to slander Philip, seem to be in disagreement with Herodotus' theories regarding the kinship between the Dorians and the Makednoi. However, modern historians such as Eugene N. Borza, revealed the Demosthenean corpus as simply a form of political rhetoric designed to formulate public policy<ref>Borza, Eugene N. ''In The Shadow of Olympus''. Princeton University Press, 1992, ISBN 0691008809, pp. 5-6. </ref> or as just an insulting speech, according to Nicholas Hammond.<ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''The Miracle that was Macedonia''. St. Martin's Press, 1991, ISBN 0283999101.</ref>

[[Livy|Titus Livius]] in his work ''The History of Rome'' says that Macedonians spoke the same language as that of Aetolians and [[Acarnania]]ns, undoubtedly Greek tribes:<ref>Livy. ''The History of Rome'', [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=59609&pageno=136 Book XXXI, 29]</ref>{{cquote|Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is always the same, and not from causes which change with the times.|}}

==Atticisation in the 5th to 4th centuries==
Macedon was heavily [[Attic Greek|Atticised]] from the time of [[Alexander the Great]]. Moreover, there are indications that there were pan-Hellenic influences in the Macedonian kingdom as early as the [[5th century BC]]. King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] established the new capital at [[Pella]], a festival in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]], a city right next to [[Mount Olympus|Mt. Olympus]], and welcomed southern Greek intellectuals into the kingdom. Athenian playwriters such as [[Euripides]] and [[Agathon]] and the famous painter [[Zeuxis]] all were influential in the early kingdom. Euripides wrote his last two tragedies at Archelaus' court. <ref>[http://www.courttheatre.org/home/plays/9798/cycle/PNcycle.shtml The Iphigenia Cycle]</ref>

==Participation in Pan-Hellenic events==
A passage in book five of Herodotus' ''Histories'' concerns the exclusion of Macedonians from panhellenic events such as the [[Ancient Olympic Games]].<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=5:chapter=22:section=1 5.22]</ref> In 504 or 500 BC, the Macedonian king [[Alexander I of Macedon|Alexander I]] attempted to participate in the Olympic Games, and met with resistance by competitors, who regarded him as a non-Hellene. According to Herodotus, Alexander argued that his family was of ultimately Greek ([[Argos|Argive]]) descent, and the [[Elis|Elean]] [[Hellanodikai]] determined that it is so. Other kings of [[Macedon]] such as [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus I]] and [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] also took part in the Games.

The following is a list of recorded Macedonian victors at the Olympics:<ref name=Panmacedonian>{{cite web|url=http://www.panmacedonia.info/olympians.html |title=Macedonians Olympic Winners |publisher=Pan-Macedonian Association USA |language=Greek |date= |accessdate=2008-04-04}}</ref>

{| border="1" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse:collapse; border-color:#f2f2f4; margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:5px; font-size:90%; text-align:center;"
|- bgcolor="#f2f2f4"
|width="100"| '''Year''' ([[Before Christ|BC]])
|width="100"| '''Name'''
|width="100"| '''Home town'''
|width="100"| '''Event'''
|-
| 504 or 500 || [[Alexander I of Macedon|Alexander I]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 408 || [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus I]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 356 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Horse racing|Kelis]]
|-
| 352 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Synoris]]
|-
| 348 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 328 || Kliton || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 320 || Damasias || [[Amphipolis]] || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 304 || Lampos || [[Philippi]] || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 292 || [[Antigonus]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 288 || [[Antigonus]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 268 || Seleucus || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 268 || [[Belistiche]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 264 || [[Belistiche]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Synoris]]
|}

Other Macedonian victors recorded are Ptolemy I, Ptolemy II, [[Arsinoe II of Egypt|Arsinoe]], Berenike I, Berenike II, Etearchus, Molykos, Trygaius, Plaggon.<ref name=Panmacedonian/>

Additionally, a [[5th century BC]] inscription found in royal tomb at [[Vergina]] shows evidence that Macedonian kings competed in [[Argive]] [[Hera]]ean games.<ref>Hornblower, Simon. ''Thucydides and Pindar: Historical Narrative and the World of Epinikian Poetry''. Oxford University Press, 2006,
ISBN 0199298289, p. 13.</ref> [[Amyntas III of Macedon|Amyntas III]] in 371 BC took also part in a Panhellenic congress, concerning [[Amphipolis]]. From the age of [[Perdiccas III of Macedon|Perdiccas III]] 365 BC onwards, who served as [[Theorodokoi|Theorodokos]], participation of [[List of ancient Macedonians#Athletes|Macedonian athletes]] in [[Panhellenic Games]] and festivals became common.

==Language==
{{main|Ancient Macedonian language}}
Due to the fragmentary attestation various interpretations are possible. The tongue of the area's inhabitants prior to the [[5th century BC]] is attested in some hundred words from various glosses, mainly those of [[Hesychius of Alexandria]], 5th century, as well as placenames ([[toponyms]]), personal names ([[anthroponyms]]) and local inscriptions. The [[Koine Greek]] dialect was standardised as the language of formal discourse and official communication by the 4th century BC.<ref>Borza, Eugene N. ''In the Shadow of Olympus''.</ref>

However, all inscriptions found within the boundaries of the kingdom of [[Macedon]] or the Empires of the Diadochi that can be ascribed to Macedonians prior to Roman conquest, are written in [[Attic]], the [[Koine Greek]] and much more rarely in the [[Doric Greek]] dialect (see also [[Pella curse tablet]]).

==See also==
*[[Macedon]]
*[[Ancient Macedonian language]]
*[[Dorians]]
*[[Lynkestis]]
*[[Ancient Greece]]
*[[List of ancient Macedonians]]
*[[Paionians]]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Ancient Macedonians|Ancient Macedonians]]

[[bg:Македони]]
[[ca:Macedonis]]
[[de:Antike Makedonen]]
[[es:Antiguos macedonios]]
[[it:Macedoni]]
[[lt:Antikiniai makedonai]]
[[mk:Антички Македонци]]
[[nl:Macedoniërs (oudheid)]]
[[pt:Antigos macedônios]]
[[sk:Macedónci (staroveký národ)]]
[[sr:Антички Македонци]]
[[tr:Antik Makedonlar]]

User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise

2009-05-03T21:16:23Z

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'''Note: If you leave a message here I will most often respond here'''

== An image ==

Sorry to annoy you once more, but could you check out [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%89%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5_1941.jpg this image]? Part of the FUR says "It is of much lower resolution than the original" which is confusing considering the size. Also, the source seems to be a book published in Bulgaria in 1941, which wouldn't be a reliable source, would it? Thanks in advance, '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]'''

== Macedonians (Greeks) ==

I nominated the article for deletion: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Macedonians (Greeks)]]. Cheers!--

== Thanks ==

Thanks for the post in my talk page. I agree, besides, letting them talk is more damaging to their cause than me presenting evidence (see for example the last "evidence" provided by the new poster). In the talk page I tried to focus on the evidence they provided, I pointed out that a quote from the policy that the guy presented as evidence and based his argumentation on it was not actually a quote, it was a liberal interpretation of the policy presented as a quote. [[User:man with one red shoe|man with one red shoe]] 18:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
:There now appears to be off-wiki canvassing on this issue - see [[WP:AN/I#Greek nationalist canvassing off-wiki]]. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 18:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
::I would like to post this, not sure if it should be under evidence or supporting ChrisO's COI point or if I should post it at all:

It has been [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedonia&diff=prev&oldid=284472260 claimed] that over 90% of the Greeks don't accept the name of Macedonia. This claim was made by somebody who supports the Greek cause (not by me or some other "anti-Greek" as I was labeled). Nobody seems to deny the prevalence of that opinion in the Greek population, however they want us to believe that they don't have a COI when it comes to deciding the content and then they vote en masse against the name of "Macedonia" or even against the use of "Republic of Macedonia" form on [[Greece]] page and [[talk:Greece]] shows. To me that's the key problem here, it's not necessary the content problem that bothers me (although there are clear policies and guidelines that ChrisO has detailed), it's the claim that there's no COI when it comes to content decision and the potential bad implications for Wikipedia when nationals team to preserve their POV.

::So... is this something that I need to mention, or it's not a good idea since it might upset the commission members (although it's the plain truth)? Never been in such a case and don't know how it works and what makes ArbCom tick... I will wait for your feedback. [[User:man with one red shoe|man with one red shoe]] 19:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

:::If I might make a suggestion, it would be '''very''' useful to gather diffs to identify explicitly political arguments by our Greek editors. Plenty of such arguments have been made, it's just a matter of digging them up from the various talk pages. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 20:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

== About the off wiki ==

You mind want to see my ARBCOM evidence page for a second link from the same blog you mentioned that is already in English. It would be good to ARBCOM if someone could provide ARBCOM with a translation for the .mk television link in my evidence page, if anyone has any. Lobbying from a TV station is very powerful too. [[User:Shadowmorph|Shadowmorph]] ([[User talk:Shadowmorph|talk]]) 11:28, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

:I don't have time for a full translation (ask PMK1 or MatriX if you badly want one) but it's not lobbying or trying to convince any Macedonians to go and do something, it's simply reporting the state of affairs - if you type in "Macedonia" you end up at an article about the country. It also mentions how the Greek internet users, who it describes as having lost, "comment that the Skopjans succeeded through debate in changing the appellation of the country from FYROM to Republic of Macedonia, and even to obtain, on the official page in which Greece is represented, for the northern neighbour to be mentioned as the Republic of Macedonia" (the quoted is a translation of the last sentence). '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]''' 12:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::That sounds like a propaganda.--[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 12:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:::What, the comments of the Greek internet users or the Macedonian description of the comments of the Greek internet users? '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]''' 13:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::::Would you direct me to access free Macedonian-English translation tool or engine? Well, I'm bemused at the current situation that tries to make only one side ''evil'' while the news channel broadcasted the incident in Wiki. Which one is more powerful, a blog or a news media?--[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 13:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::::: I don't think there is any - I once tried to participate in something over at mk-wiki and only found an online dictionary, not a translator. As for the difference between the two types of media echos here, the point is clear: the Macedonian report is just that, a report. It's funny that they are taking their naming situation so desperately serious they would find us important enough to report on, but that's about as far as it goes. The Greek blogs are radically different: they don't just report, they urge readers to put pressure on us. To the extent this is coming from inside Wikipedia, that's clearly disruptive misbehaviour. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::Of course, the report has the general vibe of supporting Macedonia, but what else could we honestly expect? And as PMK1 said somewhere, it must be a slow week for actual news. Still no progress on Macedonian-English machine translation, unfortunately... '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]''' 14:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks, Fut.Perf. Bulgarian-English tool does not work for me (some recommended to use it because Bulgarian and Macedonian have mutual intelligibility) The already-registered-account-only motion seems to be reasonable and should be applied to all involved side in the muddy situation.--[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 14:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::You could try Serbian-English too, but in general the results from either of them are sub-par. '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]''' 14:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I am happy to help with any translation that you require/are interested in. Ever since the election the only news has been electoral rigging. :) Caspian Blue, Bulgarian and Macedonian ≠ Same, besides, the alphabets make direct translation impossible. You could have tried a transliteration into latin and the into Bulgarian cyrillic? [[User:PMK1|PMK1]] ([[User talk:PMK1|talk]]) 14:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:Hmm.. thanks but the suggested way did not work either. I know Bulgarian and Macedonian are different language(the "mutual intelligibility" does not mean "same") I'm just a curious observer on this issue, so if I need some translation from Macedonian contents, I can rely on your help. :) --[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 17:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, contact me on my talk page. If I have enough time i will be happy to help. [[User:PMK1|PMK1]] ([[User talk:PMK1|talk]]) 00:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

== ARBMAC2 ==

You know, half of your arguments about the Greeks can be substituted with "Ireland", "Kosovo", "Palestinian", "Chinese", et cetera and still make sense. Really, the Macedonians and the Greeks aren't better than any other. Although personally, I think that the move to Macedonia was silly because it goes against the precedent of the region taking the undisambiguated name, and the page really should've stayed at the old title. Then again, these naming disputes often get out of hand. I think all Chris needs is a slap on the wrist to be more careful next time, and that a taskforce be created to sort out the naming problems (as it did work somewhat for Ireland and Eastern Europe) '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 18:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Map of Slavophones in Macedonia ==

Καλησπέρα.

Είδα αυτό τον χάρτη και έχω τις ενστάσεις μου.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png

Καταρχήν σαν Μακεδόνας από την περιοχή της Κοζάνης σε διαβεβαιώ πως στην περιοχή μου το νοτιότερο χωριό δίγλωσσων και όχι μόνο σλαβόφωνων μόνο το χωριό Κόμανος,ο οποίος είναι ελάχιστα νοτιότερα της Πτολεμαΐδας,τα περισσότερα χωριά από της περιοχής Πτολεμαΐδας ήταν Τουρκικά πριν την ανταλλαγή πληθυσμών(το μαρτυρούν άλλωστε και τα παλιά τους Τουρκικά ονόματα όπως και της Πτολεμαΐδας Καγιλάρ) ,ελάχιστα από αυτά τα χωριά περιελάμβαναν και σλαβόφωνους.
Επίσης μου φαίνεται παράξενο πως περιοχές με συντριπτικά ποσοστά Ελληνόφωνων εμφανίζονται ως Σλαβόφωνα π.χ η Βέροια,η περιοχή της Θεσσαλονίκης,οι Σέρρες αν σε αυτές τις περιοχές υπήρχαν 10 Ελληνόφωνα χωριά και 1 Βουλγαρόφωνο σε αναλογία δεν νομίζω πως είναι σωστό να εμφανίζεται όλη η περιοχή σαν Σλαβόφωνη.
Δημιουργεί λάθος συνειρμούς σε άτομα που δεν γνωρίζουν το θέμα.
Περιμένω απάντησή σου.

Ευχαριστώ
kzk842

: You have already found the discussion page for that image, so please read it (and the other discussions referred to from there.) This has been discussed by many people, most of whom unfortunately do not grasp the topic of the map. I'll quote myself, for the 20th time, probably: "This isn't about "majorities". It's a dialect map, not a demographic map. Showing some place in a certain color doesn't mean that place is inhabited by a Slavic majority; it only means that whatever Slavic dialects are there (or were there), share some distinctive structural features with those of other places shown in the same colour. How many or how few speakers are there, or indeed whether any such speakers are left at all now, is immaterial. The presence of other languages (such as the majority presence of Greek) is outside the scope of such a map. "

:Please try to understand this statement before you go on debating; if you don't understand it, read it again.

:The contents of this map were adapted from the best [[WP:V|reliable sources]] I had available at the time. If you have better sources, please let me know. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 16:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
== Oi ==

[[User_talk:Xanxari_en.#Krahu_i_shqiponj.C3.ABs|Sigh]]. --[[User:Woohookitty]] [[User talk:Woohookitty|Diamming fool!]] 04:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

== Ce107 ==

Just noticed your warning to [[User Talk:Ce107]] about [[Talk:Greece]]. Thanks. I've never had a guy attack me for ''agreeing'' with him about a better reference :p ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 11:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC))
: Heh. BTW, what this going on at [[Talk:Linguistics]]? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 11:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
::There's a continuing stream of semi-linguists who want to add things like deconstruction and literary criticism into the article. They (or a single editor from India using sock puppets) are repeatedly beaten back by the Linguistics professors (five or six of us). The latest incarnation is someone who wanted to add Derrida by name in the article even though he's had no influence on mainstream linguistics and none of the professors had ever heard of him in their graduate careers in Linguistics. "He criticized de Saussure" was the main argument for including him. We're going to scrap the old, long, unorganized bibliography and start fresh. ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 12:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC))

== Macedonia 2 ==

:I'm posting here, on Avg's page, and the evidence talk pages. I've already had enough of the sordid behavior, from many parties on this case. I strongly suggest everyone shape up very quickly. — [[User:Rlevse|Rlevse]] • [[User_talk:Rlevse|Talk]] • 22:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't let Avg get to you. There's no point in fighting with him - he's clearly hoping to goad you into tripping yourself up. Just ignore him, please. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 00:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

:Just a note to support your actions in this area. A big thanks; you and ChrisO are taking on the tough work and getting little appreciation for it. . .well here's mine. Sorry I can't do more. Best Regards, [[User:R. Baley|R. Baley]] ([[User talk:R. Baley|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:: Thanks for your kind words. Don't worry, we'll manage. People were getting on my nerves last night, but fortunately the worst offender was indeed blocked for it afterwards, which sort of vindicated my protests. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 10:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

==Question==
Can you explain your use of "nationalist ethnic essentialist" in this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ancient_Macedonians&diff=prev&oldid=287198829 edit]? Specifically, what does the term mean? [http://books.google.com.au/books?id=r-O1JHTNMyEC&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203&dq=%22ethnic+essentialism&source=bl&ots=wtPRwSlehO&sig=SnHtMMPft56llZrpmNioADsOlq8&hl=en&ei=CxL7Sc3lDN7gtge8z4mRBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 This] source seems to indicate that it is a form of racism. Thanks. [[User:KnightLago|KnightLago]] ([[User talk:KnightLago|talk]]) 15:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

: Ethnic essentialism is the belief that ethnic identities are fixed, stable entities that are objectively given and are a stable, natural characteristics of a population. It is only under such a premise that equating the statement "people X were of ultimate proto-Y'ian ancestry" and "people X were Y'ians" would seriously follow from each other. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 15:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
::Ok, there was some confusion over the meaning of the term, but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Thanks! [[User:KnightLago|KnightLago]] ([[User talk:KnightLago|talk]]) 15:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:::FP [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAncient_Macedonians&diff=287266270&oldid=287234123 changed] "do" with "would", after my response. Rephrasing changes everything. Nevertheless, if this was a honest mistake from his side, I accept it. It's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SQRT5P1D2#Macedonia_2 other] things that were not addressed and worry me, like threats and being told to shut up. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 16:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

You know, I think the articles on ancient languages/dialects spoken in the Balkans and Greece are more problematic, and more worthy of ArbCom discussion, than the Macedonia naming dispute. Since the intellectual issues involved are more complex, though, I have no faith that ArbCom would deal with them properly, and I think this little section of Fut. Perf.'s talk page illustrates why. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 17:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

== Good work on the timeline ==

<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">[[Image:Smiley.svg|left|62px]]
'''Future Perfect at Sunrise''', John Carter has smiled at you! Smiles promote [[Wikipedia:WikiLove|WikiLove]] and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Go on, smile! Cheers, and happy editing! ''Smile at others by adding {{tls|Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.''
</div> [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 20:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:Agree completely with the timeline. (And the other, too.) ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 21:33, 1 May 2009 (UTC))

== Suspected copyvio by Taulant ==

Hi Future,

Last week, I removed this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albania&diff=286518268&oldid=286300142] section from [[Albania]], as I noticed it appears directly ripped off from this [http://albania.shqiperia.com/kat/gj1/kid/391.html] website. Seems like a fairly open-and-shut copyvio case. I also made some other copy edits as the whole section is a mess (and can still use a lot of work). All my edits were then reverted by Taulant, with this bland edit summary [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albania&diff=286587041&oldid=286558002], and he even had the κουτοπονηριά to tag his edit as minor in the hope i wouldn't notice it. I reverted him again and left a warning on his talk page, hoping it would end things. I was wrong. Today he reverted again, making the disingenuous claim that www.shqiperia.com actually ripped off the content from wikipedia. The info is of course totally unsourced, nor does he claim where "he" got it from. In any case, given his past history of copyright violations, i see little reason to believe him. I reverted him again, but I have a feeling that won't accomplish anything. I know you're busy with other things, but since you are familiar with him, any help would be appreciated. --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 03:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

: About the copyvio situation, Taulant seems to be right: it can be reconstructed from the article history that the passage in question grew organically within Wikipedia over several months (e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albania&diff=131362239&oldid=131361898] and multiple other edits), until it reached the stage that is mirrored in that external page, sometime in mid-2007. No comment on its quality or reliable sourcing status, but it's not a rip-off from that other site. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== [[Germanos Karavangelis‎]] ==
Hi Future, I think this article is object of Greek nationalistic edit-war. The dark side of this person (Karavangelis‎) is strictly hidden from some Greek POV-pushers there. [[User:Jingiby|Jingby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 08:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

: Unfortunately, the very fact that you seem to be thinking in terms of "dark sides" (and "bright sides", assumedly) in this historical character, seems to indicate that most probably both you and your opponents in this debate are approaching the article from a wrong perspective. Before you go on editing, please reflect: what is "dark" about that "dark side", and why, and what is "bright" about his other side, and why? And why would that be important for the article? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== Wrong page ==
:: sorry I thought it was the workshop, I have been going backwards and forwards a lot from both pages. My error. [[User:Reaper7|Reaper7]] ([[User talk:Reaper7|talk]]) 14:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== Re ==

The first volume that I can think of is Hatzopoulos-Loukopoulou (ed.) - Philip of Macedon, Athens, 2006 (6th ed if I remember correctly?); it has a map of the period you had in mind(?). I might take a look in a few others. Of course, it might be better if the ancient borders are removed altogether for all kinds of reasons. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 21:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Hammond & Griffith - History of Macedonia vol. 2, OUP, 1979. Nothing else here, atm. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 21:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise

2009-05-03T21:10:32Z

3rdAlcove: /* Re */ new section

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== An image ==

Sorry to annoy you once more, but could you check out [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%89%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5_1941.jpg this image]? Part of the FUR says "It is of much lower resolution than the original" which is confusing considering the size. Also, the source seems to be a book published in Bulgaria in 1941, which wouldn't be a reliable source, would it? Thanks in advance, '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]'''

== Macedonians (Greeks) ==

I nominated the article for deletion: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Macedonians (Greeks)]]. Cheers!--

== Thanks ==

Thanks for the post in my talk page. I agree, besides, letting them talk is more damaging to their cause than me presenting evidence (see for example the last "evidence" provided by the new poster). In the talk page I tried to focus on the evidence they provided, I pointed out that a quote from the policy that the guy presented as evidence and based his argumentation on it was not actually a quote, it was a liberal interpretation of the policy presented as a quote. [[User:man with one red shoe|man with one red shoe]] 18:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
:There now appears to be off-wiki canvassing on this issue - see [[WP:AN/I#Greek nationalist canvassing off-wiki]]. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 18:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
::I would like to post this, not sure if it should be under evidence or supporting ChrisO's COI point or if I should post it at all:

It has been [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedonia&diff=prev&oldid=284472260 claimed] that over 90% of the Greeks don't accept the name of Macedonia. This claim was made by somebody who supports the Greek cause (not by me or some other "anti-Greek" as I was labeled). Nobody seems to deny the prevalence of that opinion in the Greek population, however they want us to believe that they don't have a COI when it comes to deciding the content and then they vote en masse against the name of "Macedonia" or even against the use of "Republic of Macedonia" form on [[Greece]] page and [[talk:Greece]] shows. To me that's the key problem here, it's not necessary the content problem that bothers me (although there are clear policies and guidelines that ChrisO has detailed), it's the claim that there's no COI when it comes to content decision and the potential bad implications for Wikipedia when nationals team to preserve their POV.

::So... is this something that I need to mention, or it's not a good idea since it might upset the commission members (although it's the plain truth)? Never been in such a case and don't know how it works and what makes ArbCom tick... I will wait for your feedback. [[User:man with one red shoe|man with one red shoe]] 19:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

:::If I might make a suggestion, it would be '''very''' useful to gather diffs to identify explicitly political arguments by our Greek editors. Plenty of such arguments have been made, it's just a matter of digging them up from the various talk pages. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 20:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

== About the off wiki ==

You mind want to see my ARBCOM evidence page for a second link from the same blog you mentioned that is already in English. It would be good to ARBCOM if someone could provide ARBCOM with a translation for the .mk television link in my evidence page, if anyone has any. Lobbying from a TV station is very powerful too. [[User:Shadowmorph|Shadowmorph]] ([[User talk:Shadowmorph|talk]]) 11:28, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

:I don't have time for a full translation (ask PMK1 or MatriX if you badly want one) but it's not lobbying or trying to convince any Macedonians to go and do something, it's simply reporting the state of affairs - if you type in "Macedonia" you end up at an article about the country. It also mentions how the Greek internet users, who it describes as having lost, "comment that the Skopjans succeeded through debate in changing the appellation of the country from FYROM to Republic of Macedonia, and even to obtain, on the official page in which Greece is represented, for the northern neighbour to be mentioned as the Republic of Macedonia" (the quoted is a translation of the last sentence). '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]''' 12:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::That sounds like a propaganda.--[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 12:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:::What, the comments of the Greek internet users or the Macedonian description of the comments of the Greek internet users? '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]''' 13:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::::Would you direct me to access free Macedonian-English translation tool or engine? Well, I'm bemused at the current situation that tries to make only one side ''evil'' while the news channel broadcasted the incident in Wiki. Which one is more powerful, a blog or a news media?--[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 13:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::::: I don't think there is any - I once tried to participate in something over at mk-wiki and only found an online dictionary, not a translator. As for the difference between the two types of media echos here, the point is clear: the Macedonian report is just that, a report. It's funny that they are taking their naming situation so desperately serious they would find us important enough to report on, but that's about as far as it goes. The Greek blogs are radically different: they don't just report, they urge readers to put pressure on us. To the extent this is coming from inside Wikipedia, that's clearly disruptive misbehaviour. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::Of course, the report has the general vibe of supporting Macedonia, but what else could we honestly expect? And as PMK1 said somewhere, it must be a slow week for actual news. Still no progress on Macedonian-English machine translation, unfortunately... '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]''' 14:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks, Fut.Perf. Bulgarian-English tool does not work for me (some recommended to use it because Bulgarian and Macedonian have mutual intelligibility) The already-registered-account-only motion seems to be reasonable and should be applied to all involved side in the muddy situation.--[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 14:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::You could try Serbian-English too, but in general the results from either of them are sub-par. '''[[User:BalkanFever|Balkan]][[User talk:BalkanFever|Fever]]''' 14:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I am happy to help with any translation that you require/are interested in. Ever since the election the only news has been electoral rigging. :) Caspian Blue, Bulgarian and Macedonian ≠ Same, besides, the alphabets make direct translation impossible. You could have tried a transliteration into latin and the into Bulgarian cyrillic? [[User:PMK1|PMK1]] ([[User talk:PMK1|talk]]) 14:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:Hmm.. thanks but the suggested way did not work either. I know Bulgarian and Macedonian are different language(the "mutual intelligibility" does not mean "same") I'm just a curious observer on this issue, so if I need some translation from Macedonian contents, I can rely on your help. :) --[[User talk:Caspian blue|'''Caspian''' blue]] 17:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, contact me on my talk page. If I have enough time i will be happy to help. [[User:PMK1|PMK1]] ([[User talk:PMK1|talk]]) 00:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

== ARBMAC2 ==

You know, half of your arguments about the Greeks can be substituted with "Ireland", "Kosovo", "Palestinian", "Chinese", et cetera and still make sense. Really, the Macedonians and the Greeks aren't better than any other. Although personally, I think that the move to Macedonia was silly because it goes against the precedent of the region taking the undisambiguated name, and the page really should've stayed at the old title. Then again, these naming disputes often get out of hand. I think all Chris needs is a slap on the wrist to be more careful next time, and that a taskforce be created to sort out the naming problems (as it did work somewhat for Ireland and Eastern Europe) '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 18:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Map of Slavophones in Macedonia ==

Καλησπέρα.

Είδα αυτό τον χάρτη και έχω τις ενστάσεις μου.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png

Καταρχήν σαν Μακεδόνας από την περιοχή της Κοζάνης σε διαβεβαιώ πως στην περιοχή μου το νοτιότερο χωριό δίγλωσσων και όχι μόνο σλαβόφωνων μόνο το χωριό Κόμανος,ο οποίος είναι ελάχιστα νοτιότερα της Πτολεμαΐδας,τα περισσότερα χωριά από της περιοχής Πτολεμαΐδας ήταν Τουρκικά πριν την ανταλλαγή πληθυσμών(το μαρτυρούν άλλωστε και τα παλιά τους Τουρκικά ονόματα όπως και της Πτολεμαΐδας Καγιλάρ) ,ελάχιστα από αυτά τα χωριά περιελάμβαναν και σλαβόφωνους.
Επίσης μου φαίνεται παράξενο πως περιοχές με συντριπτικά ποσοστά Ελληνόφωνων εμφανίζονται ως Σλαβόφωνα π.χ η Βέροια,η περιοχή της Θεσσαλονίκης,οι Σέρρες αν σε αυτές τις περιοχές υπήρχαν 10 Ελληνόφωνα χωριά και 1 Βουλγαρόφωνο σε αναλογία δεν νομίζω πως είναι σωστό να εμφανίζεται όλη η περιοχή σαν Σλαβόφωνη.
Δημιουργεί λάθος συνειρμούς σε άτομα που δεν γνωρίζουν το θέμα.
Περιμένω απάντησή σου.

Ευχαριστώ
kzk842

: You have already found the discussion page for that image, so please read it (and the other discussions referred to from there.) This has been discussed by many people, most of whom unfortunately do not grasp the topic of the map. I'll quote myself, for the 20th time, probably: "This isn't about "majorities". It's a dialect map, not a demographic map. Showing some place in a certain color doesn't mean that place is inhabited by a Slavic majority; it only means that whatever Slavic dialects are there (or were there), share some distinctive structural features with those of other places shown in the same colour. How many or how few speakers are there, or indeed whether any such speakers are left at all now, is immaterial. The presence of other languages (such as the majority presence of Greek) is outside the scope of such a map. "

:Please try to understand this statement before you go on debating; if you don't understand it, read it again.

:The contents of this map were adapted from the best [[WP:V|reliable sources]] I had available at the time. If you have better sources, please let me know. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 16:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
== Oi ==

[[User_talk:Xanxari_en.#Krahu_i_shqiponj.C3.ABs|Sigh]]. --[[User:Woohookitty]] [[User talk:Woohookitty|Diamming fool!]] 04:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

== Ce107 ==

Just noticed your warning to [[User Talk:Ce107]] about [[Talk:Greece]]. Thanks. I've never had a guy attack me for ''agreeing'' with him about a better reference :p ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 11:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC))
: Heh. BTW, what this going on at [[Talk:Linguistics]]? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 11:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
::There's a continuing stream of semi-linguists who want to add things like deconstruction and literary criticism into the article. They (or a single editor from India using sock puppets) are repeatedly beaten back by the Linguistics professors (five or six of us). The latest incarnation is someone who wanted to add Derrida by name in the article even though he's had no influence on mainstream linguistics and none of the professors had ever heard of him in their graduate careers in Linguistics. "He criticized de Saussure" was the main argument for including him. We're going to scrap the old, long, unorganized bibliography and start fresh. ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 12:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC))

== Macedonia 2 ==

:I'm posting here, on Avg's page, and the evidence talk pages. I've already had enough of the sordid behavior, from many parties on this case. I strongly suggest everyone shape up very quickly. — [[User:Rlevse|Rlevse]] • [[User_talk:Rlevse|Talk]] • 22:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't let Avg get to you. There's no point in fighting with him - he's clearly hoping to goad you into tripping yourself up. Just ignore him, please. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 00:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

:Just a note to support your actions in this area. A big thanks; you and ChrisO are taking on the tough work and getting little appreciation for it. . .well here's mine. Sorry I can't do more. Best Regards, [[User:R. Baley|R. Baley]] ([[User talk:R. Baley|talk]]) 05:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:: Thanks for your kind words. Don't worry, we'll manage. People were getting on my nerves last night, but fortunately the worst offender was indeed blocked for it afterwards, which sort of vindicated my protests. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 10:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

==Question==
Can you explain your use of "nationalist ethnic essentialist" in this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ancient_Macedonians&diff=prev&oldid=287198829 edit]? Specifically, what does the term mean? [http://books.google.com.au/books?id=r-O1JHTNMyEC&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203&dq=%22ethnic+essentialism&source=bl&ots=wtPRwSlehO&sig=SnHtMMPft56llZrpmNioADsOlq8&hl=en&ei=CxL7Sc3lDN7gtge8z4mRBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 This] source seems to indicate that it is a form of racism. Thanks. [[User:KnightLago|KnightLago]] ([[User talk:KnightLago|talk]]) 15:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

: Ethnic essentialism is the belief that ethnic identities are fixed, stable entities that are objectively given and are a stable, natural characteristics of a population. It is only under such a premise that equating the statement "people X were of ultimate proto-Y'ian ancestry" and "people X were Y'ians" would seriously follow from each other. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 15:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
::Ok, there was some confusion over the meaning of the term, but I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Thanks! [[User:KnightLago|KnightLago]] ([[User talk:KnightLago|talk]]) 15:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:::FP [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAncient_Macedonians&diff=287266270&oldid=287234123 changed] "do" with "would", after my response. Rephrasing changes everything. Nevertheless, if this was a honest mistake from his side, I accept it. It's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SQRT5P1D2#Macedonia_2 other] things that were not addressed and worry me, like threats and being told to shut up. [[User:SQRT5P1D2|SQRT5P1D2]] ([[User talk:SQRT5P1D2|talk]]) 16:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

You know, I think the articles on ancient languages/dialects spoken in the Balkans and Greece are more problematic, and more worthy of ArbCom discussion, than the Macedonia naming dispute. Since the intellectual issues involved are more complex, though, I have no faith that ArbCom would deal with them properly, and I think this little section of Fut. Perf.'s talk page illustrates why. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 17:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

== Good work on the timeline ==

<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">[[Image:Smiley.svg|left|62px]]
'''Future Perfect at Sunrise''', John Carter has smiled at you! Smiles promote [[Wikipedia:WikiLove|WikiLove]] and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Go on, smile! Cheers, and happy editing! ''Smile at others by adding {{tls|Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.''
</div> [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 20:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:Agree completely with the timeline. (And the other, too.) ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 21:33, 1 May 2009 (UTC))

== Suspected copyvio by Taulant ==

Hi Future,

Last week, I removed this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albania&diff=286518268&oldid=286300142] section from [[Albania]], as I noticed it appears directly ripped off from this [http://albania.shqiperia.com/kat/gj1/kid/391.html] website. Seems like a fairly open-and-shut copyvio case. I also made some other copy edits as the whole section is a mess (and can still use a lot of work). All my edits were then reverted by Taulant, with this bland edit summary [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albania&diff=286587041&oldid=286558002], and he even had the κουτοπονηριά to tag his edit as minor in the hope i wouldn't notice it. I reverted him again and left a warning on his talk page, hoping it would end things. I was wrong. Today he reverted again, making the disingenuous claim that www.shqiperia.com actually ripped off the content from wikipedia. The info is of course totally unsourced, nor does he claim where "he" got it from. In any case, given his past history of copyright violations, i see little reason to believe him. I reverted him again, but I have a feeling that won't accomplish anything. I know you're busy with other things, but since you are familiar with him, any help would be appreciated. --[[User:Athenean|Athenean]] ([[User talk:Athenean|talk]]) 03:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

: About the copyvio situation, Taulant seems to be right: it can be reconstructed from the article history that the passage in question grew organically within Wikipedia over several months (e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albania&diff=131362239&oldid=131361898] and multiple other edits), until it reached the stage that is mirrored in that external page, sometime in mid-2007. No comment on its quality or reliable sourcing status, but it's not a rip-off from that other site. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== [[Germanos Karavangelis‎]] ==
Hi Future, I think this article is object of Greek nationalistic edit-war. The dark side of this person (Karavangelis‎) is strictly hidden from some Greek POV-pushers there. [[User:Jingiby|Jingby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 08:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

: Unfortunately, the very fact that you seem to be thinking in terms of "dark sides" (and "bright sides", assumedly) in this historical character, seems to indicate that most probably both you and your opponents in this debate are approaching the article from a wrong perspective. Before you go on editing, please reflect: what is "dark" about that "dark side", and why, and what is "bright" about his other side, and why? And why would that be important for the article? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== Wrong page ==
:: sorry I thought it was the workshop, I have been going backwards and forwards a lot from both pages. My error. [[User:Reaper7|Reaper7]] ([[User talk:Reaper7|talk]]) 14:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== Re ==

The first volume that I can think of is Hatzopoulos-Loukopoulou (ed.) - Philip of Macedon, Athens, 2006 (6th ed if I remember correctly?); it has a map of the period you had in mind(?). I might take a look in a few others. Of course, it might be better if the ancient borders are removed altogether for all kinds of reasons. [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 21:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonians

2009-05-03T20:58:32Z

3rdAlcove: it does "continue to be debated" (in a sense), do we really need a citation for that? remove the "most scholars" think this or that statement, the talk pagehas seen enough bad arguments because of it.

{{dablink|This article is about the people of [[ancient Greece]]; for the unrelated modern [[Slavic peoples|Slavic]] ethnic group see [[Macedonians (ethnic group)]].}}
[[Image:Macedon2.JPG|thumb|200px|right|The expansion of the ancient Macedonians in 4th century BC.]]

The '''Macedonians''' ({{lang-el|Μακεδόνες}}, ''Makedónes'') were an ancient tribe which inhabited the alluvial plain around the rivers [[Haliacmon]] and lower [[Vardar|Axius]], north of [[Mount Olympus]] in [[Greece]]. Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a [[Ancient Greek dialects|Greek dialect]] or a distinct language, came to belong to the [[Koine Greek]]-speaking population in the [[Hellenistic period]]<ref>Sociolinguistic Variation and Change
By [[Peter Trudgill]] ISBN 0748615156, 9780748615155 Page 125</ref>. Whether they were of ultimately [[Greeks|Greek]] origin themselves or were later [[Hellenization|Hellenized]] continues to be debated by scholars. The [[Macedon]]ian royal family, known as the [[Argead dynasty]], claimed Greek descent from [[Argos]] in the [[Peloponnese]]<ref>[[Herodotus]]. ''Histories'', 5.20.4, 5.22.1, 9.45.</ref><ref>[[Arrian]]. ''Anabasis Alexandri''. Book II, 14, 4.</ref><ref>[[Quintus Curtius Rufus]], "Historiae Alexandri Magni", 6.3.11.</ref><ref>[[Polybius]]. ''The Histories'', 7.9.4, 18.4.8.</ref> (thus the name [[Argead]]) and Macedonians competed in the [[ancient Olympic Games]], an athletic event in which only men of Greek origin were allowed to participate.<ref>Pausanias. ''Description of Greece'', [http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias5A.html 5.8.11].</ref><ref>[http://www.panmacedonia.info/olympians.html Pan-Macedonian Association USA, Inc - List of Macedonian Olympic winners (in Greek)]</ref>

==Origins==
{{clean-up}}
===Modern discussions===
Some modern writers{{Fact|date=May 2009}}, such as [[Eugene N. Borza]], argue that the ancient Macedonians underwent [[ethnogenesis]] synthesizing [[Culture of Greece|Greek]] as well as [[Thraco-Illyrian]] cultural elements. Other scholars, such as [[Nicholas Hammond (historian)|Nicholas Hammond]], argue that the language of the ancient Macedonians was a pure but specific form of Greek until 4th century BC when it was eventually amalgamated with common Greek.<ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''A History of Macedonia: Volume II: 550-336 B.C.'' Oxford University Press, ISBN 0198148143. </ref>

Regarding the Macedonians' geographic origins, one theory suggests that they occupied the mountainous area of [[Orestis (region)|Orestis]], near present-day [[Kastoria]], and the valley of the [[Haliacmon]] river, in the first millennium BC.<ref>Dunstan, William E. ''Ancient Greece''. Wadsworth Pub. Co., 2000, ISBN 0155073834.</ref> From 8th century BC or early 7th century BC, Macedonians, in their struggle to found a kingdom migrated eastward whereby they subjugated and expelled the earlier Illyrian, Thracian and Paeonian inhabitants and other Greek tribes, or mingled with them.<ref>Fine, John V.A. ''The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History''. Harvard University Press, 1983, ISBN 0674033116. </ref><ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''A History of Greece to 323 BC''. Cambridge University, 1986. </ref>

In 19th century scholarship, it was argued that the Macedonians possibly had an [[Illyrians|Illyrian]] or [[Thracians|Thracian]] rather than a Greek origin. Professor [[William Mitchell Ramsay]] considered the Macedonians as a tribe of [[Thrace]], the land north-east of Greece, akin to the [[Thracians]]. [[George Rawlinson]], stated that the Macedonians were a mixed race, not [[Paionia]]ns, Illyrians or Thracians, but of the three, closest with the Illyrians. Various "mixed" scenarios (e.g. Greco-Illyrian) have also been proposed.<ref>Dunstan, William E. ''Ancient Greece''. Wadsworth Pub. Co., 2000, ISBN 0155073834.</ref><ref>Green, Peter. ''Alexander of Macedon 356-323 BC: A Historical Biography''. University of California Press, 1992, ISBN 0520071662.</ref>

Following the archaeological discoveries of the 20th century, numerous modern scholars now advocate the opinion that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin which to this day remains the most common consensus.<ref name=GreekOrigin /> Systematic excavations at [[Aiani]] since 1983 have brought to light finds that attest the existence of an organised city from the [[2nd millennium BC]] to 100 BC. The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black-and-white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far.<ref name=BritannicaMac>{{cite web
| url = http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/260307/84137/Ancient-artifacts-that-have-been-discovered-in-Aiani-prove-that#default
| title = Encyclopedia Britannica - Hellenism in Macedonia}}</ref><ref name=AegeoBalkanHistory>Karamitrou-Mentessidi, Georgia. "[http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/article.php?id_art=6 The Late Bronze Age in Aiani]". 16 March 2007. ''Aegeo-Balkan Prehistory''.</ref> Found with [[Mycenaean Greece|Μycenaean]] [[sherd]]s, they can be dated with certainty to the [[14th century BC]].<ref name=BritannicaMac /><ref name=AegeoBalkanHistory /> The findings also include some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia, among them inscriptions bearing Greek names like ''Θέμιδα'' (Themida). The inscriptions demonstrate that the society of [[Upper Macedonia]] spoke and wrote Greek before the [[5th century BC]].<ref name=BritannicaMac />

===Ancient sources===
The pseudo-Hesiodic [[Catalogue of Women]] lists the mythical progenitor and [[eponymous]] ancestor of the Macedonians, [[Makednos]], as a descendant of [[Deucalion]]'s daughter [[Thyia]] and [[Zeus]] thus excluding him from direct descent via [[Hellen]]. On the other hand, [[Hellanicus of Lesbos]]' later genealogy lists Makednos as the son of [[Aeolus]] and thus a grandson of Hellen.<ref>{{cite book |last= M. Hall |first= Jonathan |title=Hellenicity: Between Ethnicity and Culture |year=2002 |publisher= The University of Chicago Press |isbn= 0-226-31330-1 |page=165}}</ref>

[[Herodotus]] provides the chief traditions on the origins of the Macedonians, from whom he claims originate the Dorians, when he describes the history of the Lacedaemonians. He writes in the first book of his ''[[Histories (Herodotus)|Histories]]'' that the Macedonians were a [[Greeks|Greek]] tribe left behind during the great [[Dorian invasion]]:<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&loc=1.56.3 1.56.1].</ref>{{cquote|...for during the reign of [[Deucalion]], [[Phthia]] was the country in which the [[Greeks|Hellenes]] dwelt, but under [[Dorus]], the son of [[Hellen]], they moved to the tract at the base of [[Mount Ossa (Greece)|Ossa]] and [[Mount Olympus|Olympus]], which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of [[Pindus]]. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopia having entered the [[Peloponnese]] in this way, they became known as [[Dorians]].}} On the origins of the Macedonian Royalty, Herodotus holds a record about the youngest of three brothers from [[Argos]], and how he, through his skill in accepting omens, tricked an oppressive monarch out of his kingdom. The story apparently describes the genealogical connection between the Macedonian royal house (or Macedonians in general) and legendary Greek heroes. This theory was fully accepted among the scholars of antiquity.<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%231446;layout=;loc=8.137.1 8.137].</ref>

Herodotus mentions in other points of his work the Greek origin of the Macedonians, paralleling them with the Dorians:<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&loc=8.43 8.43.1].</ref>{{cquote|...from the [[Peloponnese]], the [[Lacedaemon]]ians... the [[Ancient Corinth|Corinthians]]... the [[Sicyon]]ians... the [[Epidaurus|Epidaurians]]... the [[Troezen]]ians... the [[Ermioni|Hermione]]ans. All these, except the people of Hermione, were of Dorian and Macedonian stock and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region.|}}

[[Pausanias]], in his work ''[[Description of Greece]]'' states that the Macedonians took part in the [[Amphictyonic League]], which was an association of ancient Greek tribes formed to protect a specific temple or sacred place. In 356 BC when [[Phocians]] captured and sacked [[Delphi]] and a sacred war was declared against them, they were expelled from the league, and their two votes were given to Macedonians who had helped to defeat them. <ref>Pausanias, Description of Greece, 10.8.2 - 10.8.4 [http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html]</ref>

{{cquote|They say that Amphictyon himself summoned to the common assembly the following tribes of the Greek people: [[Ionians]], Dolopes, [[Thessalians]], Aenianians, [[Magnesians]], Malians, Phthiotians, [[Dorians]], [[Phocians]], [[Locrians]] who border on [[Phocis]], living at the bottom of Mount Cnemis. But when the Phocians seized the sanctuary, and the war came to an end nine years afterwards, there came a change in the Amphictyonic League. The Macedonians managed to enter it, while the Phocian nation and a section of the Dorians, namely the [[Lacedaemonians]], lost their membership, the Phocians because of their rash crime, the Lacedaemonians as a penalty for allying themselves with the Phocians [...] The Amphictyons today number thirty. [[Nicopolis]], Macedonia and [[Thessaly]] each send six deputies.|}}

[[Polybius]], in his work ''[[The Histories (Polybius)|The Histories]]'', describes the treaty made between [[Hannibal]] and [[Philip V of Macedon]], implying that Macedonians shared the same religion with the rest of Greeks:<ref>Polybius. ''The Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=7.9.4 7.9.4].</ref>{{cquote|This is a sworn treaty made between Hannibal... on the one part; and Xenophanes, son of Cleomachus of [[Athens]], sent to us by King Philip... The oath is taken in the presence... of all the gods who rule Macedonia and the rest of Greece|}}

Polybius relates the racial kinship between Aetolians, [[Achaeans]] and Macedonians in the speech of Lyciscus the Acarnanian addressing Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, the Aetolian envoys, at the assembly of Sparta:<ref>Polybius. ''The Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=9.37.2 9.37.2].</ref>

{{cquote|Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood with yourselves, and with Philip their leader.|}}

During antiquity, the Greekness of the Macedonians was famously disputed by [[Demosthenes]], the leader of the anti-Macedonian party in Athens and sworn enemy of Philip II. His words, often perceived as an effort to slander Philip, seem to be in disagreement with Herodotus' theories regarding the kinship between the Dorians and the Makednoi. However, modern historians such as Eugene N. Borza, revealed the Demosthenean corpus as simply a form of political rhetoric designed to formulate public policy<ref>Borza, Eugene N. ''In The Shadow of Olympus''. Princeton University Press, 1992, ISBN 0691008809, pp. 5-6. </ref> or as just an insulting speech, according to Nicholas Hammond.<ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''The Miracle that was Macedonia''. St. Martin's Press, 1991, ISBN 0283999101.</ref>

[[Livy|Titus Livius]] in his work ''The History of Rome'' says that Macedonians spoke the same language as that of Aetolians and [[Acarnania]]ns, undoubtedly Greek tribes:<ref>Livy. ''The History of Rome'', [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=59609&pageno=136 Book XXXI, 29]</ref>{{cquote|Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is always the same, and not from causes which change with the times.|}}

==Atticisation in the 5th to 4th centuries==
Macedon was heavily [[Attic Greek|Atticised]] from the time of [[Alexander the Great]]. Moreover, there are indications that there were pan-Hellenic influences in the Macedonian kingdom as early as the [[5th century BC]]. King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] established the new capital at [[Pella]], a festival in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]], a city right next to [[Mount Olympus|Mt. Olympus]], and welcomed southern Greek intellectuals into the kingdom. Athenian playwriters such as [[Euripides]] and [[Agathon]] and the famous painter [[Zeuxis]] all were influential in the early kingdom. Euripides wrote his last two tragedies at Archelaus' court. <ref>[http://www.courttheatre.org/home/plays/9798/cycle/PNcycle.shtml The Iphigenia Cycle]</ref>

==Participation in Pan-Hellenic events==
A passage in book five of Herodotus' ''Histories'' concerns the exclusion of Macedonians from panhellenic events such as the [[Ancient Olympic Games]].<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=5:chapter=22:section=1 5.22]</ref> In 504 or 500 BC, the Macedonian king [[Alexander I of Macedon|Alexander I]] attempted to participate in the Olympic Games, and met with resistance by competitors, who regarded him as a non-Hellene. According to Herodotus, Alexander argued that his family was of ultimately Greek ([[Argos|Argive]]) descent, and the [[Elis|Elean]] [[Hellanodikai]] determined that it is so. Other kings of [[Macedon]] such as [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus I]] and [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] also took part in the Games.

The following is a list of recorded Macedonian victors at the Olympics:<ref name=Panmacedonian>{{cite web|url=http://www.panmacedonia.info/olympians.html |title=Macedonians Olympic Winners |publisher=Pan-Macedonian Association USA |language=Greek |date= |accessdate=2008-04-04}}</ref>

{| border="1" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse:collapse; border-color:#f2f2f4; margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:5px; font-size:90%; text-align:center;"
|- bgcolor="#f2f2f4"
|width="100"| '''Year''' ([[Before Christ|BC]])
|width="100"| '''Name'''
|width="100"| '''Home town'''
|width="100"| '''Event'''
|-
| 504 or 500 || [[Alexander I of Macedon|Alexander I]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 408 || [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus I]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 356 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Horse racing|Kelis]]
|-
| 352 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Synoris]]
|-
| 348 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 328 || Kliton || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 320 || Damasias || [[Amphipolis]] || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 304 || Lampos || [[Philippi]] || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 292 || [[Antigonus]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 288 || [[Antigonus]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 268 || Seleucus || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 268 || [[Belistiche]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 264 || [[Belistiche]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Synoris]]
|}

Other Macedonian victors recorded are Ptolemy I, Ptolemy II, [[Arsinoe II of Egypt|Arsinoe]], Berenike I, Berenike II, Etearchus, Molykos, Trygaius, Plaggon.<ref name=Panmacedonian/>

Additionally, a [[5th century BC]] inscription found in royal tomb at [[Vergina]] shows evidence that Macedonian kings competed in [[Argive]] [[Hera]]ean games.<ref>Hornblower, Simon. ''Thucydides and Pindar: Historical Narrative and the World of Epinikian Poetry''. Oxford University Press, 2006,
ISBN 0199298289, p. 13.</ref> [[Amyntas III of Macedon|Amyntas III]] in 371 BC took also part in a Panhellenic congress, concerning [[Amphipolis]]. From the age of [[Perdiccas III of Macedon|Perdiccas III]] 365 BC onwards, who served as [[Theorodokoi|Theorodokos]], participation of [[List of ancient Macedonians#Athletes|Macedonian athletes]] in [[Panhellenic Games]] and festivals became common.

==Language==
{{main|Ancient Macedonian language}}
Due to the fragmentary attestation various interpretations are possible. The tongue of the area's inhabitants prior to the [[5th century BC]] is attested in some hundred words from various glosses, mainly those of [[Hesychius of Alexandria]], 5th century, as well as placenames ([[toponyms]]), personal names ([[anthroponyms]]) and local inscriptions. The [[Koine Greek]] dialect was standardised as the language of formal discourse and official communication by the 4th century BC.<ref>Borza, Eugene N. ''In the Shadow of Olympus''.</ref>

However, all inscriptions found within the boundaries of the kingdom of [[Macedon]] or the Empires of the Diadochi that can be ascribed to Macedonians prior to Roman conquest, are written in [[Attic]], the [[Koine Greek]] and much more rarely in the [[Doric Greek]] dialect (see also [[Pella curse tablet]]).

==See also==
*[[Macedon]]
*[[Ancient Macedonian language]]
*[[Dorians]]
*[[Lynkestis]]
*[[Ancient Greece]]
*[[List of ancient Macedonians]]
*[[Paionians]]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Ancient Macedonians|Ancient Macedonians]]

[[bg:Македони]]
[[ca:Macedonis]]
[[de:Antike Makedonen]]
[[es:Antiguos macedonios]]
[[it:Macedoni]]
[[lt:Antikiniai makedonai]]
[[mk:Антички Македонци]]
[[nl:Macedoniërs (oudheid)]]
[[pt:Antigos macedônios]]
[[sk:Macedónci (staroveký národ)]]
[[sr:Антички Македонци]]
[[tr:Antik Makedonlar]]

Ancient Macedonians

2009-05-03T20:56:21Z

3rdAlcove: rv HXs 2nd ed as well. see, the connection you make here might be correct (it has probably been suggested) but it's still your connection (Borza, in this particular paper doesn't argue it) and so, OR.

{{dablink|This article is about the people of [[ancient Greece]]; for the unrelated modern [[Slavic peoples|Slavic]] ethnic group see [[Macedonians (ethnic group)]].}}
[[Image:Macedon2.JPG|thumb|200px|right|The expansion of the ancient Macedonians in 4th century BC.]]

The '''Macedonians''' ({{lang-el|Μακεδόνες}}, ''Makedónes'') were an ancient tribe which inhabited the alluvial plain around the rivers [[Haliacmon]] and lower [[Vardar|Axius]], north of [[Mount Olympus]] in [[Greece]]. Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a [[Ancient Greek dialects|Greek dialect]] or a distinct language, came to belong to the [[Koine Greek]]-speaking population in the [[Hellenistic period]]<ref>Sociolinguistic Variation and Change
By [[Peter Trudgill]] ISBN 0748615156, 9780748615155 Page 125</ref>. Whether they were of ultimately [[Greeks|Greek]] origin themselves or were later [[Hellenization|Hellenized]] continues to be debated by some scholars{{Fact|date=May 2009}}, but most of them advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of proto-Greek stock.<ref name=GreekOrigin>A. R. Burn, ''Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Empire'', Macmillan, 1948; George Cawkwell, ''Philip of Macedon'', Faber & Faber, London, 1978; Francois Chamoux, ''Hellenistic Civilization'', Blackwell Publishing Professional, 2002; Victor Ehrenberg, ''The Greek State'', Methuen, (July 2000); Malcolm Errington, ''A History of Macedonia'', University of California Press, February 1993; Alan Fildes and Joann Fletcher, ''Alexander the Great: Son of the Gods'', Getty Trust Publications, J. Paul Getty Museum, 2004; John V.A. Fine, ''The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History'', Harvard University Press, 1983; Robin Lane Fox, ''Alexander the Great''; Jonathan M. Hall, ''Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity'', Cambridge University Press, 1998; N G L Hammond, ''A History of Greece to 323 BC'', Cambridge University, 1986; Archer Jones, ''The Art of War in Western World'' (University of Illinois Press, 2000); Robin Osborne, ''Greek History'', Routledge, 2004; Jacques Pirenne, ''The Tides of History Vol. 1'', E. P. Dutton, 1962; Michael M. Sage, ''Warfare in Ancient Greece'', Routledge; Chester G. Starr, ''A History of the Ancient World'', Oxford University Press, 1991; Hilding Thylander, ''Den Grekiska världen'', (Svenska humanistiska förbundet, 1985); Arnold J. Toynbee, ''The Greeks and Their Heritages'', Oxford University Press, 1981; Ulrich Wilcken, ''Alexander the Great''; Ian Worthington, ''Alexander the Great'', Routledge, 2002.</ref> The [[Macedon]]ian royal family, known as the [[Argead dynasty]], claimed Greek descent from [[Argos]] in the [[Peloponnese]]<ref>[[Herodotus]]. ''Histories'', 5.20.4, 5.22.1, 9.45.</ref><ref>[[Arrian]]. ''Anabasis Alexandri''. Book II, 14, 4.</ref><ref>[[Quintus Curtius Rufus]], "Historiae Alexandri Magni", 6.3.11.</ref><ref>[[Polybius]]. ''The Histories'', 7.9.4, 18.4.8.</ref> (thus the name [[Argead]]) and Macedonians competed in the [[ancient Olympic Games]], an athletic event in which only men of Greek origin were allowed to participate.<ref>Pausanias. ''Description of Greece'', [http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias5A.html 5.8.11].</ref><ref>[http://www.panmacedonia.info/olympians.html Pan-Macedonian Association USA, Inc - List of Macedonian Olympic winners (in Greek)]</ref>

==Origins==
===Modern discussions===
Some modern writers{{Fact|date=May 2009}}, such as [[Eugene N. Borza]], argue that the ancient Macedonians underwent [[ethnogenesis]] synthesizing [[Culture of Greece|Greek]] as well as [[Thraco-Illyrian]] cultural elements. Other scholars, such as [[Nicholas Hammond (historian)|Nicholas Hammond]], argue that the language of the ancient Macedonians was a pure but specific form of Greek until 4th century BC when it was eventually amalgamated with common Greek.<ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''A History of Macedonia: Volume II: 550-336 B.C.'' Oxford University Press, ISBN 0198148143. </ref>

Regarding the Macedonians' geographic origins, one theory suggests that they occupied the mountainous area of [[Orestis (region)|Orestis]], near present-day [[Kastoria]], and the valley of the [[Haliacmon]] river, in the first millennium BC.<ref>Dunstan, William E. ''Ancient Greece''. Wadsworth Pub. Co., 2000, ISBN 0155073834.</ref> From 8th century BC or early 7th century BC, Macedonians, in their struggle to found a kingdom migrated eastward whereby they subjugated and expelled the earlier Illyrian, Thracian and Paeonian inhabitants and other Greek tribes, or mingled with them.<ref>Fine, John V.A. ''The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History''. Harvard University Press, 1983, ISBN 0674033116. </ref><ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''A History of Greece to 323 BC''. Cambridge University, 1986. </ref>

In 19th century scholarship, it was argued that the Macedonians possibly had an [[Illyrians|Illyrian]] or [[Thracians|Thracian]] rather than a Greek origin. Professor [[William Mitchell Ramsay]] considered the Macedonians as a tribe of [[Thrace]], the land north-east of Greece, akin to the [[Thracians]]. [[George Rawlinson]], stated that the Macedonians were a mixed race, not [[Paionia]]ns, Illyrians or Thracians, but of the three, closest with the Illyrians. Various "mixed" scenarios (e.g. Greco-Illyrian) have also been proposed.<ref>Dunstan, William E. ''Ancient Greece''. Wadsworth Pub. Co., 2000, ISBN 0155073834.</ref><ref>Green, Peter. ''Alexander of Macedon 356-323 BC: A Historical Biography''. University of California Press, 1992, ISBN 0520071662.</ref>

Following the archaeological discoveries of the 20th century, numerous modern scholars now advocate the opinion that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin which to this day remains the most common consensus.<ref name=GreekOrigin /> Systematic excavations at [[Aiani]] since 1983 have brought to light finds that attest the existence of an organised city from the [[2nd millennium BC]] to 100 BC. The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black-and-white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far.<ref name=BritannicaMac>{{cite web
| url = http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/260307/84137/Ancient-artifacts-that-have-been-discovered-in-Aiani-prove-that#default
| title = Encyclopedia Britannica - Hellenism in Macedonia}}</ref><ref name=AegeoBalkanHistory>Karamitrou-Mentessidi, Georgia. "[http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/article.php?id_art=6 The Late Bronze Age in Aiani]". 16 March 2007. ''Aegeo-Balkan Prehistory''.</ref> Found with [[Mycenaean Greece|Μycenaean]] [[sherd]]s, they can be dated with certainty to the [[14th century BC]].<ref name=BritannicaMac /><ref name=AegeoBalkanHistory /> The findings also include some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia, among them inscriptions bearing Greek names like ''Θέμιδα'' (Themida). The inscriptions demonstrate that the society of [[Upper Macedonia]] spoke and wrote Greek before the [[5th century BC]].<ref name=BritannicaMac />

===Ancient sources===
The pseudo-Hesiodic [[Catalogue of Women]] lists the mythical progenitor and [[eponymous]] ancestor of the Macedonians, [[Makednos]], as a descendant of [[Deucalion]]'s daughter [[Thyia]] and [[Zeus]] thus excluding him from direct descent via [[Hellen]]. On the other hand, [[Hellanicus of Lesbos]]' later genealogy lists Makednos as the son of [[Aeolus]] and thus a grandson of Hellen.<ref>{{cite book |last= M. Hall |first= Jonathan |title=Hellenicity: Between Ethnicity and Culture |year=2002 |publisher= The University of Chicago Press |isbn= 0-226-31330-1 |page=165}}</ref>

[[Herodotus]] provides the chief traditions on the origins of the Macedonians, from whom he claims originate the Dorians, when he describes the history of the Lacedaemonians. He writes in the first book of his ''[[Histories (Herodotus)|Histories]]'' that the Macedonians were a [[Greeks|Greek]] tribe left behind during the great [[Dorian invasion]]:<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&loc=1.56.3 1.56.1].</ref>{{cquote|...for during the reign of [[Deucalion]], [[Phthia]] was the country in which the [[Greeks|Hellenes]] dwelt, but under [[Dorus]], the son of [[Hellen]], they moved to the tract at the base of [[Mount Ossa (Greece)|Ossa]] and [[Mount Olympus|Olympus]], which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of [[Pindus]]. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopia having entered the [[Peloponnese]] in this way, they became known as [[Dorians]].}} On the origins of the Macedonian Royalty, Herodotus holds a record about the youngest of three brothers from [[Argos]], and how he, through his skill in accepting omens, tricked an oppressive monarch out of his kingdom. The story apparently describes the genealogical connection between the Macedonian royal house (or Macedonians in general) and legendary Greek heroes. This theory was fully accepted among the scholars of antiquity.<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%231446;layout=;loc=8.137.1 8.137].</ref>

Herodotus mentions in other points of his work the Greek origin of the Macedonians, paralleling them with the Dorians:<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&loc=8.43 8.43.1].</ref>{{cquote|...from the [[Peloponnese]], the [[Lacedaemon]]ians... the [[Ancient Corinth|Corinthians]]... the [[Sicyon]]ians... the [[Epidaurus|Epidaurians]]... the [[Troezen]]ians... the [[Ermioni|Hermione]]ans. All these, except the people of Hermione, were of Dorian and Macedonian stock and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region.|}}

[[Pausanias]], in his work ''[[Description of Greece]]'' states that the Macedonians took part in the [[Amphictyonic League]], which was an association of ancient Greek tribes formed to protect a specific temple or sacred place. In 356 BC when [[Phocians]] captured and sacked [[Delphi]] and a sacred war was declared against them, they were expelled from the league, and their two votes were given to Macedonians who had helped to defeat them. <ref>Pausanias, Description of Greece, 10.8.2 - 10.8.4 [http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html]</ref>

{{cquote|They say that Amphictyon himself summoned to the common assembly the following tribes of the Greek people: [[Ionians]], Dolopes, [[Thessalians]], Aenianians, [[Magnesians]], Malians, Phthiotians, [[Dorians]], [[Phocians]], [[Locrians]] who border on [[Phocis]], living at the bottom of Mount Cnemis. But when the Phocians seized the sanctuary, and the war came to an end nine years afterwards, there came a change in the Amphictyonic League. The Macedonians managed to enter it, while the Phocian nation and a section of the Dorians, namely the [[Lacedaemonians]], lost their membership, the Phocians because of their rash crime, the Lacedaemonians as a penalty for allying themselves with the Phocians [...] The Amphictyons today number thirty. [[Nicopolis]], Macedonia and [[Thessaly]] each send six deputies.|}}

[[Polybius]], in his work ''[[The Histories (Polybius)|The Histories]]'', describes the treaty made between [[Hannibal]] and [[Philip V of Macedon]], implying that Macedonians shared the same religion with the rest of Greeks:<ref>Polybius. ''The Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=7.9.4 7.9.4].</ref>{{cquote|This is a sworn treaty made between Hannibal... on the one part; and Xenophanes, son of Cleomachus of [[Athens]], sent to us by King Philip... The oath is taken in the presence... of all the gods who rule Macedonia and the rest of Greece|}}

Polybius relates the racial kinship between Aetolians, [[Achaeans]] and Macedonians in the speech of Lyciscus the Acarnanian addressing Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, the Aetolian envoys, at the assembly of Sparta:<ref>Polybius. ''The Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=9.37.2 9.37.2].</ref>

{{cquote|Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood with yourselves, and with Philip their leader.|}}

During antiquity, the Greekness of the Macedonians was famously disputed by [[Demosthenes]], the leader of the anti-Macedonian party in Athens and sworn enemy of Philip II. His words, often perceived as an effort to slander Philip, seem to be in disagreement with Herodotus' theories regarding the kinship between the Dorians and the Makednoi. However, modern historians such as Eugene N. Borza, revealed the Demosthenean corpus as simply a form of political rhetoric designed to formulate public policy<ref>Borza, Eugene N. ''In The Shadow of Olympus''. Princeton University Press, 1992, ISBN 0691008809, pp. 5-6. </ref> or as just an insulting speech, according to Nicholas Hammond.<ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''The Miracle that was Macedonia''. St. Martin's Press, 1991, ISBN 0283999101.</ref>

[[Livy|Titus Livius]] in his work ''The History of Rome'' says that Macedonians spoke the same language as that of Aetolians and [[Acarnania]]ns, undoubtedly Greek tribes:<ref>Livy. ''The History of Rome'', [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=59609&pageno=136 Book XXXI, 29]</ref>{{cquote|Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is always the same, and not from causes which change with the times.|}}

==Atticisation in the 5th to 4th centuries==
Macedon was heavily [[Attic Greek|Atticised]] from the time of [[Alexander the Great]]. Moreover, there are indications that there were pan-Hellenic influences in the Macedonian kingdom as early as the [[5th century BC]]. King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] established the new capital at [[Pella]], a festival in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]], a city right next to [[Mount Olympus|Mt. Olympus]], and welcomed southern Greek intellectuals into the kingdom. Athenian playwriters such as [[Euripides]] and [[Agathon]] and the famous painter [[Zeuxis]] all were influential in the early kingdom. Euripides wrote his last two tragedies at Archelaus' court. <ref>[http://www.courttheatre.org/home/plays/9798/cycle/PNcycle.shtml The Iphigenia Cycle]</ref>

==Participation in Pan-Hellenic events==
A passage in book five of Herodotus' ''Histories'' concerns the exclusion of Macedonians from panhellenic events such as the [[Ancient Olympic Games]].<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=5:chapter=22:section=1 5.22]</ref> In 504 or 500 BC, the Macedonian king [[Alexander I of Macedon|Alexander I]] attempted to participate in the Olympic Games, and met with resistance by competitors, who regarded him as a non-Hellene. According to Herodotus, Alexander argued that his family was of ultimately Greek ([[Argos|Argive]]) descent, and the [[Elis|Elean]] [[Hellanodikai]] determined that it is so. Other kings of [[Macedon]] such as [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus I]] and [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] also took part in the Games.

The following is a list of recorded Macedonian victors at the Olympics:<ref name=Panmacedonian>{{cite web|url=http://www.panmacedonia.info/olympians.html |title=Macedonians Olympic Winners |publisher=Pan-Macedonian Association USA |language=Greek |date= |accessdate=2008-04-04}}</ref>

{| border="1" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse:collapse; border-color:#f2f2f4; margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:5px; font-size:90%; text-align:center;"
|- bgcolor="#f2f2f4"
|width="100"| '''Year''' ([[Before Christ|BC]])
|width="100"| '''Name'''
|width="100"| '''Home town'''
|width="100"| '''Event'''
|-
| 504 or 500 || [[Alexander I of Macedon|Alexander I]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 408 || [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus I]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 356 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Horse racing|Kelis]]
|-
| 352 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Synoris]]
|-
| 348 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 328 || Kliton || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 320 || Damasias || [[Amphipolis]] || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 304 || Lampos || [[Philippi]] || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 292 || [[Antigonus]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 288 || [[Antigonus]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 268 || Seleucus || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 268 || [[Belistiche]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 264 || [[Belistiche]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Synoris]]
|}

Other Macedonian victors recorded are Ptolemy I, Ptolemy II, [[Arsinoe II of Egypt|Arsinoe]], Berenike I, Berenike II, Etearchus, Molykos, Trygaius, Plaggon.<ref name=Panmacedonian/>

Additionally, a [[5th century BC]] inscription found in royal tomb at [[Vergina]] shows evidence that Macedonian kings competed in [[Argive]] [[Hera]]ean games.<ref>Hornblower, Simon. ''Thucydides and Pindar: Historical Narrative and the World of Epinikian Poetry''. Oxford University Press, 2006,
ISBN 0199298289, p. 13.</ref> [[Amyntas III of Macedon|Amyntas III]] in 371 BC took also part in a Panhellenic congress, concerning [[Amphipolis]]. From the age of [[Perdiccas III of Macedon|Perdiccas III]] 365 BC onwards, who served as [[Theorodokoi|Theorodokos]], participation of [[List of ancient Macedonians#Athletes|Macedonian athletes]] in [[Panhellenic Games]] and festivals became common.

==Language==
{{main|Ancient Macedonian language}}
Due to the fragmentary attestation various interpretations are possible. The tongue of the area's inhabitants prior to the [[5th century BC]] is attested in some hundred words from various glosses, mainly those of [[Hesychius of Alexandria]], 5th century, as well as placenames ([[toponyms]]), personal names ([[anthroponyms]]) and local inscriptions. The [[Koine Greek]] dialect was standardised as the language of formal discourse and official communication by the 4th century BC.<ref>Borza, Eugene N. ''In the Shadow of Olympus''.</ref>

However, all inscriptions found within the boundaries of the kingdom of [[Macedon]] or the Empires of the Diadochi that can be ascribed to Macedonians prior to Roman conquest, are written in [[Attic]], the [[Koine Greek]] and much more rarely in the [[Doric Greek]] dialect (see also [[Pella curse tablet]]).

==See also==
*[[Macedon]]
*[[Ancient Macedonian language]]
*[[Dorians]]
*[[Lynkestis]]
*[[Ancient Greece]]
*[[List of ancient Macedonians]]
*[[Paionians]]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Ancient Macedonians|Ancient Macedonians]]

[[bg:Македони]]
[[ca:Macedonis]]
[[de:Antike Makedonen]]
[[es:Antiguos macedonios]]
[[it:Macedoni]]
[[lt:Antikiniai makedonai]]
[[mk:Антички Македонци]]
[[nl:Macedoniërs (oudheid)]]
[[pt:Antigos macedônios]]
[[sk:Macedónci (staroveký národ)]]
[[sr:Антички Македонци]]
[[tr:Antik Makedonlar]]

Ancient Macedonians

2009-05-03T20:49:56Z

3rdAlcove: rv anon, this is Hall's cited opinion. if you feel this point is so important, I could add a source that disagrees with Hall later but there's no need to miscite.

{{dablink|This article is about the people of [[ancient Greece]]; for the unrelated modern [[Slavic peoples|Slavic]] ethnic group see [[Macedonians (ethnic group)]].}}
[[Image:Macedon2.JPG|thumb|200px|right|The expansion of the ancient Macedonians in 4th century BC.]]

The '''Macedonians''' ({{lang-el|Μακεδόνες}}, ''Makedónes'') were an ancient tribe which inhabited the alluvial plain around the rivers [[Haliacmon]] and lower [[Vardar|Axius]], north of [[Mount Olympus]] in [[Greece]]. Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a [[Ancient Greek dialects|Greek dialect]] or a distinct language, came to belong to the [[Koine Greek]]-speaking population in the [[Hellenistic period]]<ref>Sociolinguistic Variation and Change
By [[Peter Trudgill]] ISBN 0748615156, 9780748615155 Page 125</ref>. Whether they were of ultimately [[Greeks|Greek]] origin themselves or were later [[Hellenization|Hellenized]] continues to be debated by some scholars{{Fact|date=May 2009}}, but most of them advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of proto-Greek stock.<ref name=GreekOrigin>A. R. Burn, ''Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Empire'', Macmillan, 1948; George Cawkwell, ''Philip of Macedon'', Faber & Faber, London, 1978; Francois Chamoux, ''Hellenistic Civilization'', Blackwell Publishing Professional, 2002; Victor Ehrenberg, ''The Greek State'', Methuen, (July 2000); Malcolm Errington, ''A History of Macedonia'', University of California Press, February 1993; Alan Fildes and Joann Fletcher, ''Alexander the Great: Son of the Gods'', Getty Trust Publications, J. Paul Getty Museum, 2004; John V.A. Fine, ''The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History'', Harvard University Press, 1983; Robin Lane Fox, ''Alexander the Great''; Jonathan M. Hall, ''Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity'', Cambridge University Press, 1998; N G L Hammond, ''A History of Greece to 323 BC'', Cambridge University, 1986; Archer Jones, ''The Art of War in Western World'' (University of Illinois Press, 2000); Robin Osborne, ''Greek History'', Routledge, 2004; Jacques Pirenne, ''The Tides of History Vol. 1'', E. P. Dutton, 1962; Michael M. Sage, ''Warfare in Ancient Greece'', Routledge; Chester G. Starr, ''A History of the Ancient World'', Oxford University Press, 1991; Hilding Thylander, ''Den Grekiska världen'', (Svenska humanistiska förbundet, 1985); Arnold J. Toynbee, ''The Greeks and Their Heritages'', Oxford University Press, 1981; Ulrich Wilcken, ''Alexander the Great''; Ian Worthington, ''Alexander the Great'', Routledge, 2002.</ref> The [[Macedon]]ian royal family, known as the [[Argead dynasty]], claimed Greek descent from [[Argos]] in the [[Peloponnese]]<ref>[[Herodotus]]. ''Histories'', 5.20.4, 5.22.1, 9.45.</ref><ref>[[Arrian]]. ''Anabasis Alexandri''. Book II, 14, 4.</ref><ref>[[Quintus Curtius Rufus]], "Historiae Alexandri Magni", 6.3.11.</ref><ref>[[Polybius]]. ''The Histories'', 7.9.4, 18.4.8.</ref> (thus the name [[Argead]]) and Macedonians competed in the [[ancient Olympic Games]], an athletic event in which only men of Greek origin were allowed to participate.<ref>Pausanias. ''Description of Greece'', [http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias5A.html 5.8.11].</ref><ref>[http://www.panmacedonia.info/olympians.html Pan-Macedonian Association USA, Inc - List of Macedonian Olympic winners (in Greek)]</ref>

==Origins==
===Modern discussions===
Some modern writers{{Fact|date=May 2009}}, such as [[Eugene N. Borza]], argue that the ancient Macedonians underwent [[ethnogenesis]] synthesizing [[Culture of Greece|Greek]] as well as [[Thraco-Illyrian]] cultural elements. Other scholars, such as [[Nicholas Hammond (historian)|Nicholas Hammond]], argue that the language of the ancient Macedonians was a pure but specific form of Greek until 4th century BC when it was eventually amalgamated with common Greek.<ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''A History of Macedonia: Volume II: 550-336 B.C.'' Oxford University Press, ISBN 0198148143. </ref>

Regarding the Macedonians' geographic origins, one theory suggests that they occupied the mountainous area of [[Orestis (region)|Orestis]], near present-day [[Kastoria]], and the valley of the [[Haliacmon]] river, in the first millennium BC.<ref>Dunstan, William E. ''Ancient Greece''. Wadsworth Pub. Co., 2000, ISBN 0155073834.</ref> From 8th century BC or early 7th century BC, Macedonians, in their struggle to found a kingdom migrated eastward whereby they subjugated and expelled the earlier Illyrian, Thracian and Paeonian inhabitants and other Greek tribes, or mingled with them.<ref>Fine, John V.A. ''The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History''. Harvard University Press, 1983, ISBN 0674033116. </ref><ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''A History of Greece to 323 BC''. Cambridge University, 1986. </ref>

In 19th century scholarship, it was argued that the Macedonians possibly had an [[Illyrians|Illyrian]] or [[Thracians|Thracian]] rather than a Greek origin. Professor [[William Mitchell Ramsay]] considered the Macedonians as a tribe of [[Thrace]], the land north-east of Greece, akin to the [[Thracians]]. [[George Rawlinson]], stated that the Macedonians were a mixed race, not [[Paionia]]ns, Illyrians or Thracians, but of the three, closest with the Illyrians. Various "mixed" scenarios (e.g. Greco-Illyrian) have also been proposed.<ref>Dunstan, William E. ''Ancient Greece''. Wadsworth Pub. Co., 2000, ISBN 0155073834.</ref><ref>Green, Peter. ''Alexander of Macedon 356-323 BC: A Historical Biography''. University of California Press, 1992, ISBN 0520071662.</ref>

Following the archaeological discoveries of the 20th century, numerous modern scholars now advocate the opinion that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin which to this day remains the most common consensus.<ref name=GreekOrigin /> Systematic excavations at [[Aiani]] since 1983 have brought to light finds that attest the existence of an organised city from the [[2nd millennium BC]] to 100 BC. The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black-and-white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far.<ref name=BritannicaMac>{{cite web
| url = http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/260307/84137/Ancient-artifacts-that-have-been-discovered-in-Aiani-prove-that#default
| title = Encyclopedia Britannica - Hellenism in Macedonia}}</ref><ref name=AegeoBalkanHistory>Karamitrou-Mentessidi, Georgia. "[http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/article.php?id_art=6 The Late Bronze Age in Aiani]". 16 March 2007. ''Aegeo-Balkan Prehistory''.</ref> Found with [[Mycenaean Greece|Μycenaean]] [[sherd]]s, they can be dated with certainty to the [[14th century BC]].<ref name=BritannicaMac /><ref name=AegeoBalkanHistory /> The findings also include some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia, among them inscriptions bearing Greek names like ''Θέμιδα'' (Themida). The inscriptions demonstrate that the society of [[Upper Macedonia]] spoke and wrote Greek before the [[5th century BC]].<ref name=BritannicaMac />

===Ancient sources===
The pseudo-Hesiodic [[Catalogue of Women]] lists the mythical progenitor and [[eponymous]] ancestor of the Macedonians, [[Makednos]], as a descendant of [[Deucalion]]'s daughter [[Thyia]] and [[Zeus]] thus excluding him from direct descent via [[Hellen]]. On the other hand, [[Hellanicus of Lesbos]]' later genealogy lists Makednos as the son of [[Aeolus]] and thus a grandson of Hellen.<ref>{{cite book |last= M. Hall |first= Jonathan |title=Hellenicity: Between Ethnicity and Culture |year=2002 |publisher= The University of Chicago Press |isbn= 0-226-31330-1 |page=165}}</ref>

[[Herodotus]] provides the chief traditions on the origins of the Macedonians, from whom he claims originate the Dorians, when he describes the history of the Lacedaemonians. He writes in the first book of his ''[[Histories (Herodotus)|Histories]]'' that the Macedonians were a [[Greeks|Greek]] tribe left behind during the great [[Dorian invasion]]:<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&loc=1.56.3 1.56.1].</ref>{{cquote|...for during the reign of [[Deucalion]], [[Phthia]] was the country in which the [[Greeks|Hellenes]] dwelt, but under [[Dorus]], the son of [[Hellen]], they moved to the tract at the base of [[Mount Ossa (Greece)|Ossa]] and [[Mount Olympus|Olympus]], which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of [[Pindus]]. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopia having entered the [[Peloponnese]] in this way, they became known as [[Dorians]].}} On the origins of the Macedonian Royalty, Herodotus holds a record about the youngest of three brothers from [[Argos]], and how he, through his skill in accepting omens, tricked an oppressive monarch out of his kingdom. The story apparently describes the genealogical connection between the Macedonian royal house (or Macedonians in general) and legendary Greek heroes. This theory was fully accepted among the scholars of antiquity.<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%231446;layout=;loc=8.137.1 8.137].</ref>

Herodotus mentions in other points of his work the Greek origin of the Macedonians, paralleling them with the Dorians:<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&loc=8.43 8.43.1].</ref>{{cquote|...from the [[Peloponnese]], the [[Lacedaemon]]ians... the [[Ancient Corinth|Corinthians]]... the [[Sicyon]]ians... the [[Epidaurus|Epidaurians]]... the [[Troezen]]ians... the [[Ermioni|Hermione]]ans. All these, except the people of Hermione, were of Dorian and Macedonian stock and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region.|}}

[[Pausanias]], in his work ''[[Description of Greece]]'' states that the Macedonians took part in the [[Amphictyonic League]], which was an association of ancient Greek tribes formed to protect a specific temple or sacred place. In 356 BC when [[Phocians]] captured and sacked [[Delphi]] and a sacred war was declared against them, they were expelled from the league, and their two votes were given to Macedonians who had helped to defeat them. <ref>Pausanias, Description of Greece, 10.8.2 - 10.8.4 [http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html]</ref>

{{cquote|They say that Amphictyon himself summoned to the common assembly the following tribes of the Greek people: [[Ionians]], Dolopes, [[Thessalians]], Aenianians, [[Magnesians]], Malians, Phthiotians, [[Dorians]], [[Phocians]], [[Locrians]] who border on [[Phocis]], living at the bottom of Mount Cnemis. But when the Phocians seized the sanctuary, and the war came to an end nine years afterwards, there came a change in the Amphictyonic League. The Macedonians managed to enter it, while the Phocian nation and a section of the Dorians, namely the [[Lacedaemonians]], lost their membership, the Phocians because of their rash crime, the Lacedaemonians as a penalty for allying themselves with the Phocians [...] The Amphictyons today number thirty. [[Nicopolis]], Macedonia and [[Thessaly]] each send six deputies.|}}

[[Polybius]], in his work ''[[The Histories (Polybius)|The Histories]]'', describes the treaty made between [[Hannibal]] and [[Philip V of Macedon]], implying that Macedonians shared the same religion with the rest of Greeks:<ref>Polybius. ''The Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=7.9.4 7.9.4].</ref>{{cquote|This is a sworn treaty made between Hannibal... on the one part; and Xenophanes, son of Cleomachus of [[Athens]], sent to us by King Philip... The oath is taken in the presence... of all the gods who rule Macedonia and the rest of Greece|}}

Polybius relates the racial kinship between Aetolians, [[Achaeans]] and Macedonians in the speech of Lyciscus the Acarnanian addressing Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, the Aetolian envoys, at the assembly of Sparta:<ref>Polybius. ''The Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234&layout=&loc=9.37.2 9.37.2].</ref>

{{cquote|Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood with yourselves, and with Philip their leader.|}}

During antiquity, the Greekness of the Macedonians was famously disputed by [[Demosthenes]], the leader of the anti-Macedonian party in Athens and sworn enemy of Philip II. His words "(Phillip) is not Greek, nor related to Greeks", often perceived as an effort to slander Philip, seem to be in disagreement with Herodotus' theories regarding the kinship between the Dorians and the Makednoi. However, modern historians such as Eugene N. Borza, revealed the Demosthenean corpus as simply a form of political rhetoric designed to formulate public policy<ref>Borza, Eugene N. ''In The Shadow of Olympus''. Princeton University Press, 1992, ISBN 0691008809, pp. 5-6. </ref> or as just an insulting speech, according to Nicholas Hammond.<ref>Hammond, Nicholas. ''The Miracle that was Macedonia''. St. Martin's Press, 1991, ISBN 0283999101. </ref> Political rhetoric which, nevertheless, played upon preexisting skepticism as to the Greekness of the Macedonians <ref> Studies in Attic epigraphy, history, and topography: presented to Eugene Vanderpool
By Eugene Vanderpool
Contributor Eugene Vanderpool
Edition: illustrated
Published by ASCSA, 1982
ISBN 0876615191. Page 11</ref>

[[Livy|Titus Livius]] in his work ''The History of Rome'' says that Macedonians spoke the same language as that of Aetolians and [[Acarnania]]ns, undoubtedly Greek tribes:<ref>Livy. ''The History of Rome'', [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=59609&pageno=136 Book XXXI, 29]</ref>{{cquote|Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is always the same, and not from causes which change with the times.|}}

==Atticisation in the 5th to 4th centuries==
Macedon was heavily [[Attic Greek|Atticised]] from the time of [[Alexander the Great]]. Moreover, there are indications that there were pan-Hellenic influences in the Macedonian kingdom as early as the [[5th century BC]]. King [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus]] established the new capital at [[Pella]], a festival in honor of [[Zeus]] at [[Dion, Greece|Dion]], a city right next to [[Mount Olympus|Mt. Olympus]], and welcomed southern Greek intellectuals into the kingdom. Athenian playwriters such as [[Euripides]] and [[Agathon]] and the famous painter [[Zeuxis]] all were influential in the early kingdom. Euripides wrote his last two tragedies at Archelaus' court. <ref>[http://www.courttheatre.org/home/plays/9798/cycle/PNcycle.shtml The Iphigenia Cycle]</ref>

==Participation in Pan-Hellenic events==
A passage in book five of Herodotus' ''Histories'' concerns the exclusion of Macedonians from panhellenic events such as the [[Ancient Olympic Games]].<ref>Herodotus. ''Histories'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=5:chapter=22:section=1 5.22]</ref> In 504 or 500 BC, the Macedonian king [[Alexander I of Macedon|Alexander I]] attempted to participate in the Olympic Games, and met with resistance by competitors, who regarded him as a non-Hellene. According to Herodotus, Alexander argued that his family was of ultimately Greek ([[Argos|Argive]]) descent, and the [[Elis|Elean]] [[Hellanodikai]] determined that it is so. Other kings of [[Macedon]] such as [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus I]] and [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] also took part in the Games.

The following is a list of recorded Macedonian victors at the Olympics:<ref name=Panmacedonian>{{cite web|url=http://www.panmacedonia.info/olympians.html |title=Macedonians Olympic Winners |publisher=Pan-Macedonian Association USA |language=Greek |date= |accessdate=2008-04-04}}</ref>

{| border="1" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse:collapse; border-color:#f2f2f4; margin-top:5px; margin-bottom:5px; font-size:90%; text-align:center;"
|- bgcolor="#f2f2f4"
|width="100"| '''Year''' ([[Before Christ|BC]])
|width="100"| '''Name'''
|width="100"| '''Home town'''
|width="100"| '''Event'''
|-
| 504 or 500 || [[Alexander I of Macedon|Alexander I]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 408 || [[Archelaus I of Macedon|Archelaus I]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 356 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Horse racing|Kelis]]
|-
| 352 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Synoris]]
|-
| 348 || [[Philip II of Macedon|Philip II]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 328 || Kliton || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 320 || Damasias || [[Amphipolis]] || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 304 || Lampos || [[Philippi]] || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 292 || [[Antigonus]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 288 || [[Antigonus]] || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 268 || Seleucus || - || [[Stadion (ancient sports)|Stadion]]
|-
| 268 || [[Belistiche]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Tethrippon]]
|-
| 264 || [[Belistiche]] || - || [[Chariot racing|Synoris]]
|}

Other Macedonian victors recorded are Ptolemy I, Ptolemy II, [[Arsinoe II of Egypt|Arsinoe]], Berenike I, Berenike II, Etearchus, Molykos, Trygaius, Plaggon.<ref name=Panmacedonian/>

Additionally, a [[5th century BC]] inscription found in royal tomb at [[Vergina]] shows evidence that Macedonian kings competed in [[Argive]] [[Hera]]ean games.<ref>Hornblower, Simon. ''Thucydides and Pindar: Historical Narrative and the World of Epinikian Poetry''. Oxford University Press, 2006,
ISBN 0199298289, p. 13.</ref> [[Amyntas III of Macedon|Amyntas III]] in 371 BC took also part in a Panhellenic congress, concerning [[Amphipolis]]. From the age of [[Perdiccas III of Macedon|Perdiccas III]] 365 BC onwards, who served as [[Theorodokoi|Theorodokos]], participation of [[List of ancient Macedonians#Athletes|Macedonian athletes]] in [[Panhellenic Games]] and festivals became common.

==Language==
{{main|Ancient Macedonian language}}
Due to the fragmentary attestation various interpretations are possible. The tongue of the area's inhabitants prior to the [[5th century BC]] is attested in some hundred words from various glosses, mainly those of [[Hesychius of Alexandria]], 5th century, as well as placenames ([[toponyms]]), personal names ([[anthroponyms]]) and local inscriptions. The [[Koine Greek]] dialect was standardised as the language of formal discourse and official communication by the 4th century BC.<ref>Borza, Eugene N. ''In the Shadow of Olympus''.</ref>

However, all inscriptions found within the boundaries of the kingdom of [[Macedon]] or the Empires of the Diadochi that can be ascribed to Macedonians prior to Roman conquest, are written in [[Attic]], the [[Koine Greek]] and much more rarely in the [[Doric Greek]] dialect (see also [[Pella curse tablet]]).

==See also==
*[[Macedon]]
*[[Ancient Macedonian language]]
*[[Dorians]]
*[[Lynkestis]]
*[[Ancient Greece]]
*[[List of ancient Macedonians]]
*[[Paionians]]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Ancient Macedonians|Ancient Macedonians]]

[[bg:Македони]]
[[ca:Macedonis]]
[[de:Antike Makedonen]]
[[es:Antiguos macedonios]]
[[it:Macedoni]]
[[lt:Antikiniai makedonai]]
[[mk:Антички Македонци]]
[[nl:Macedoniërs (oudheid)]]
[[pt:Antigos macedônios]]
[[sk:Macedónci (staroveký národ)]]
[[sr:Антички Македонци]]
[[tr:Antik Makedonlar]]

Macedonia naming dispute

2009-04-29T19:07:38Z

3rdAlcove: sorry, but did you read what I wrote? the point isn't the sourcing (the statement wasn't even correctly sourced).

{{clean-up}}
{|align="right"
|colspan="2"|{{Political Macedonia 2}}
|-
|valign="top"|{{Politics of Greece}}
|valign="top"|{{Politics of the Republic of Macedonia}}
|}

The '''Macedonia naming dispute''' refers to the disagreement over the use of the name ''[[Macedonia (terminology)|Macedonia]]'' between [[Greece]] and the [[Republic of Macedonia]]. Greece opposes the post-1991 constitutional name of its northern neighbour, citing the lack of disambiguation between it and the adjacent Greek region of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]. Greece also objects to the undisambiguated use of the term ''Macedonian'' for the neighbouring country's main [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|ethnic group]] and [[Macedonian language naming dispute|language]]. The dispute has escalated to the highest level of international mediation, involving numerous attempts to achieve a resolution, notably by the [[United Nations]].

The provisional reference ''the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'' (FYROM) is currently always used in relations involving states which do not recognise the constitutional name, ''Republic of Macedonia''. Nevertheless, all [[United Nations|UN]] member-states, and the UN as a whole, have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries. The ongoing dispute has not prevented the two countries from enjoying close trade links and investment levels (especially from Greece), but it has generated a great deal of political and academic debate on both sides.

Negotiations aimed at resolving the dispute are [[#A continuing negotiation|ongoing]]. It had been hoped that a mutually acceptable solution might be achieved by [[NATO]]'s [[2008 Bucharest summit|summit in Bucharest]] in April 2008. However, the failure to resolve the dispute prevented the Republic of Macedonia from receiving an invitation to join the alliance, due to Greek objections. In return, the Republic of Macedonia referred Greece to the [[International Court of Justice]], accusing Athens of violating the 1995 UN-brokered Interim Accord between the two nations.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14845/ "Macedonia Takes Greece to World Court"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?p1=3&p2=1&code=mg&case=142&k=89 Application of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 (the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia v. Greece)]</ref>

==Background==
{{seealso|Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia#Greece|Foreign relations of Greece#Balkans}}

===Controversy and conflict===
The territory of present-day Republic of Macedonia was formerly part of [[Rumelia]], part of the Ottoman Empire up to 1913. In 1893 a revolutionary movement for the liberation of Macedonia as a separate territorial entity from the Ottoman rule began, resulting in the [[Ilinden Uprising]] on 2 August 1903 (St. Elias's Day). The failure of the Ilinden Uprising caused a change in the strategy of the [[Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization]] (IMRO) from revolutionary to institutional. It split into two wings (one fighting for autonomous Macedonia inside the Ottoman Empire or inside a Balkan Federation led by [[Jane Sandanski]], and a second Supremist wing supporting the inclusion of Macedonia in Bulgaria). After the Ilinden Uprising the revolutionary movement ceased and opened a space for frequent insurgencies of Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek squads into the territory of Macedonia. These squads, often supported by the local populations, often engaged the Turkish army, spelling the eventual collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The state of conflict in 1912 resulted in the [[First Balkan War]], and most of Ottoman Europe, including the territory of Macedonia, was liberated from the Ottomans.

In the next year the [[Second Balkan War]] began and the aftermath was division in 1913 of most of Ottoman Europe into four parts, between Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Albania. The present-day Republic of Macedonia was included in Serbia. In 1914 the First World War started and Bulgaria occupied the entire territory of Macedonia, defeating the Serbs and creating a [[Macedonian front (World War I)|front]] at [[Salonica]]. The present-day Republic of Macedonia was part of Bulgaria until 1918. After Bulgaria signed a capitulation, the borders returned with small adjustments to the situation of 1913, and the present-day Republic of Macedonia became part of the [[Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes]]. This period saw the first recognition of the Macedonian nation, by the [[League of Communists of Yugoslavia]] on the third congress in Vienna in 1926 and in 1936 [[Josip Broz Tito]] took over the leadership of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes changed its name in 1929 to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the present-day Republic of Macedonia was included together with South Serbia in a province named [[Vardar Banovina]]. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia ceased to exist in 1941 as a consequence of the [[Second World War]]. Bulgaria as part of the Axis powers advanced into the territory of the Republic of Macedonia and the Greek province of Macedonia. The territory of the Republic of Macedonia was included into Bulgaria and Italy, and after 1943 into Albania.

The [[National Liberation War of Macedonia]] began officially in 1941 in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia. The [[Macedonian National Liberation Army]], formed by Macedonian partisans, liberated the entire territory of the present-day Republic of Macedonia in 1944. On the 2nd of August in 1944 (St. Elias's Day), honouring the fighters of the Ilinden Uprising, the [[ASNOM|assembly of the people]] constituted the Macedonian state as a federal state within the framework of the future Yugoslav federation. In 1946 the [[Socialist Republic of Macedonia|People's Republic of Macedonia]] was established as federal part of the newly proclaimed [[Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia]] under the leadership of [[Josip Broz Tito]]. The issue of the republic's name immediately sparked controversy with Greece over concerns that it presaged a territorial claim on the Greek coastal region of Macedonia (see [[#Territorial concerns|Territorial concerns]] below). The republic in 1963 was renamed the "Socialist Republic of Macedonia", when the Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia was renamed the [[Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], but dropped the "Socialist" from its name when it declared independence from Yugoslavia in September 1991.

The newly independent republic's accession to the United Nations and recognition by the [[European Community]] was delayed by strong Greek opposition. Although the [[Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on the former Yugoslavia]] declared that the Republic of Macedonia met the conditions set by the EC for international recognition, Greece opposed the international community recognising the Republic due to a number of objections concerning the country's name, flag and constitution. In an effort to block the European Community from recognising the Republic,<ref name="veremis">Thanos Veremis, ''Greece'', pp. 315-316. C. Hurst & Co, 2002. ISBN 185065462X</ref> the Greek government persuaded the EC to adopt a common declaration establishing conditions for recognition which included a ban on "territorial claims towards a neighbouring Community state, hostile propaganda and the use of a denomination that implies territorial claims".<ref>"[http://www.ejil.org/journal/Vol4/No1/art7.html Recognition of States - Annex 2]", Declaration on Yugoslavia (Extraordinary EPC Ministerial Meeting, Brussels, 16 December 1991)</ref>

Greece's major political parties agreed on 13 April 1992 that the word "Macedonia" could not be included in any way in the new republic's name.<ref name="couloumbis">Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore C. Kariotis, Fotini Bellou, ''Greece in the Twentieth Century'', pp. 146-147. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0714654078</ref> This became the cornerstone of the Greek position on the issue. The [[Greek diaspora]] was also mobilised in the naming controversy. A [[Greek-American]] group, Americans for the Just Resolution of the Macedonian Issue, placed a full-page advertisement in the 26 April and 10 May 1992 editions of the ''New York Times'', urging President [[George H. W. Bush]] "not to discount the concerns of the Greek people" by recognising the "Republic of Skopje" as Macedonia. Greek-Canadians also mounted a similar campaign.<ref name="shea">John Shea, ''Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation'', p. 185-188, ISBN 978-0786402281, ISBN 0786402288, published by McFarland & Company (February 1997)</ref> The EC subsequently issued a declaration expressing a willingness "to recognise that republic within its existing borders... under a name which does not include the term Macedonia."<ref>European Council in Lisbon, 26/27 June 1992, [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/summits/lisbon/li2_en.pdf Conclusions of the Presidency, Annex II], p. 43</ref>

Greek objections likewise held up the wider international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia. Although the Republic applied for membership of the United Nations on 30 July 1992, its application languished in a diplomatic limbo for nearly a year. A few states—[[Belarus]], [[Bulgaria]], [[Croatia]], [[Lithuania]], [[Slovenia]] and [[Turkey]]—recognised the republic under its constitutional name before its admission to the UN.<ref name="veremis" /> Most, however, waited to see what the United Nations would do. The delay had a serious effect on the Republic, as it led to a worsening of its already precarious economic and political conditions. With war raging in nearby [[Bosnia and Herzegovina]] and [[Croatia]], the need to ensure the country's stability became an urgent priority for the international community.<ref>Graham T. Allison, Kalypso Nicolàeidis, ''The Greek Paradox: Promise Vs. Performance'', p. 120. MIT Press, 1997. ISBN 0262510928</ref> The deteriorating security situation led to the UN's first-ever preventative peacekeeping deployment in December 1992, when units of the [[United Nations Protection Force]] were deployed to monitor possible border violations from [[Serbia]].<ref>"[http://www.un.org/Depts/DPKO/Missions/unprof_p.htm Former Yugoslavia - UNPROFOR]", Department of Public Information, United Nations. 31 August 1996</ref>

===Compromise solutions===

During 1992, the [[International Monetary Fund]], [[World Bank]] and the [[International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia]] all adopted the appellation "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" to refer to the Republic in their discussions and dealings with it. The same terminology was proposed in January 1993 by France, Spain and the United Kingdom, the three EC members of the [[United Nations Security Council]], to enable the Republic to join the United Nations.<ref>"[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DC1F30F935A15752C0A965958260 Compromise Likely to Take Macedonia Into U.N.]", ''New York Times'', 26 January 1993</ref> The proposal was circulated on 22 January 1993 by the [[United Nations Secretary General]]. However, it was initially rejected by both sides in the dispute. It was immediately opposed by the Greek Foreign Minister, [[Michael Papacostaninou]]. In a letter to the Secretary General dated 25 January 1993, he argued that admitting the republic "prior to meeting the necessary prerequisites, and in particular abandoning the use of the denomination 'Republic of Macedonia', would perpetuate and increase friction and tension and would not be conducive to peace and stability in an already troubled region."<ref name="repertoire">''Repertoire of the Practice of the Security Council Twelfth Supplement 1993-1995'', [http://www.un.org/french/docs/cs/repertoire/93-95/93-95_7.pdf Chapter VII: Practice relative to recommendations to the General Assembly regarding membership in the United Nations 1993-1995]</ref>

The president of the Republic of Macedonia, [[Kiro Gligorov]], also opposed the proposed formula. In a letter of 24 March 1993, he informed the President of the United Nations Security Council that "the Republic of Macedonia will in no circumstances be prepared to accept 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' as the name of the country." He declared that "we refuse to be associated in any way with the present connotation of the term 'Yugoslavia' ".<ref name="repertoire" /> The issue of possible Serbian territorial ambitions had been a long-running concern in the Republic of Macedonia, which some Serbian nationalists still called "South Serbia" after its pre-World War II name.<ref>John B. Allcock, "Macedonia". In ''Europe Since 1945: An Encyclopedia'', ed. Bernard Anthony Cook, p. 807. Taylor & Francis, 2001. ISBN 0815340583</ref> The government in the Republic of Macedonia was consequently nervous of any naming formula which might be seen to endorse a possible Serbian territorial claim.

Both sides came under intense diplomatic pressure to compromise. The support that Greece had received initially from its allies and partners in [[NATO]] and the [[European Community]] had begun to wane due to a combination of factors that included irritation in some quarters at Greece's hard line on the issue and a belief that Greece had flouted sanctions against [[Slobodan Milošević]]'s [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]]. The intra-Community tensions were publicly exposed on 20 January 1993 by the Danish foreign minister, [[Uffe Ellemann-Jensen]], who attracted the ire of Greek members of the [[European Parliament]] when he described the Greek position as "ridiculous" and expressed the hope that "the Security Council will very quickly recognise Macedonia and that many of the member states of the Community will support this."<ref name="gallagher">Tom Gallagher, ''The Balkans in the New Millennium: In the Shadow of War and Peace'', pp. 7-8. Routledge, 2005. ISBN 0415349400</ref>

The Greek Prime Minister, [[Constantine Mitsotakis]], took a much more moderate line on the issue than many of his colleagues in the governing [[New Democracy (Greece)|New Democracy]] party.<ref name="veremis" /> Despite opposition from hardliners, he endorsed the proposal in March 1993.<ref name="bethlehem">Daniel L. Bethlehem, Marc Weller, ''The 'Yugoslav' Crisis in International Law'', p. xlv. Cambridge University Press, 1997. ISBN 0521463041</ref> The acceptance of the formula by Athens also led to the reluctant acquiescence of the government in Skopje, though it too was divided between moderates and hardliners on the issue.

On 7 April 1993, the UN Security Council endorsed the admission of the republic in [[UN Security Council Resolution 817]]. It recommended to the [[United Nations General Assembly]] "that the State whose application is contained in document S/25147 be admitted to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State."<ref>[http://www.nato.int/ifor/un/u930407a.htm United Nations Security Council Resolution 817], 7 April 1993</ref> The recommendation was agreed by the General Assembly, which passed Resolution 225 on the following day, 8 April, using virtually the same language as the Security Council.<ref>"[http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm Admission of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to membership in the United Nations]", United Nations General Assembly Resolution 225, 8 April 1993</ref> The Republic of Macedonia thus became the 181st member of the United Nations.

The compromise solution, as set out in the two resolutions, was very carefully worded in an effort to meet the objections and concerns of both sides. The wording of the resolutions rested on four key principles:

* The appellation "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" was purely a ''provisional'' term to be used only until the dispute was resolved.<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref>

* The term was a ''reference'', not a name; as a neutral party in the dispute, the United Nations had not sought to determine the name of the state.<ref name="frowein" /> The President of the Security Council subsequently issued a statement declaring on behalf of the Council that the term "merely reflected the historic fact that it had been in the past a republic of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."<ref name="repertoire" /> The purpose of the term was also emphasized by the fact that the expression begins with the uncapitalised words "the former Yugoslav", acting as a descriptive term, rather than "the Former Yugoslav", which would act as a [[proper noun]].<ref name="frowein" /> By also being a reference rather than a name, it met Greek concerns that the term "Macedonia" should not be used in the republic's internationally recognised name.

* The use of the term was purely "for all purposes within the United Nations"; it was not being mandated for any other party.<ref name="frowein" />

* The term did not imply that the Republic of Macedonia had any connection with the existing Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, as opposed to the historical and now-defunct Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.<ref name="repertoire" />

One additional concern that had to be taken care of was the seating of the Republic of Macedonia in the General Assembly. Greece rejected seating the Republic's representative under M [as in "Macedonia (former Yugoslav Republic of)"], and the Republic rejected sitting under F (as in "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", which turned the reference into a proper noun rather than a description). Instead, it was seated under T as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and placed next to [[Thailand]].<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref>

In due course, the same convention was adopted by many other international organizations and states but they did so independently, not as the result of being instructed by the UN. For its part, Greece did not adopt the UN terminology at this stage and did not recognise the Republic under any name. The rest of the international community did not immediately recognise the Republic, but this did eventually happen at the end of 1993 and start of 1994. The People's Republic of China was the first major power to act, recognising the Republic under its constitutional name on 13 October 1993. On 16 December 1993, two weeks before Greece was due to take up the European Community presidency, six key EC countries—Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom—recognised the Republic under its UN designation. Other EC countries followed suit in quick succession and by the end of December, all EC member states except Greece had recognised the Republic.<ref name="bethlehem" /> Japan, Russia and the United States followed suit on 21 December 1993, 3 February 1994, and 9 February 1994 respectively.<ref>Ian Jeffries, ''The Former Yugoslavia at the Turn of the Twenty-first Century'', p. 54. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0415281903</ref>

===A continuing dispute===

Despite the apparent success of the compromise agreement, it led to an upsurge in nationalist agitation in both countries. Anti-Western and anti-American feelings came to the fore in Greece, in response to a perception that Greece's partners in the EC and NATO had betrayed it.<ref name="gallagher">Tom Gallagher, ''The Balkans in the New Millennium: In the Shadow of War and Peace'', pp. 7-8. Routledge, 2005. ISBN 0415349400</ref> The government of Constantine Mitsotakis was highly vulnerable; it had a majority of only a couple of seats and was under considerable pressure from ultra-nationalists. After the country's admission to the UN, the hardline former foreign minister [[Antonis Samaras]] broke away from the governing New Democracy (ND) party along with three like-minded deputies who resented what they saw as the prime minister's unacceptable weakness on the Macedonian issue. This defection deprived ND of its slim parliamentary majority and ultimately caused the fall of the government, which suffered a landslide defeat in the general election of October 1993. It was replaced by the [[PASOK]] party under [[Andreas Papandreou]], who introduced an even more hardline policy on Macedonia and withdrew from the UN-sponsored negotiations on the naming issue in late October.<ref name="gallagher" /><ref>Robert Bideleux, Richard Taylor, ''European Integration and Disintegration: East and West'', p. 136. Routledge, 1996. ISBN 0415137403</ref>

The government of the Republic of Macedonia also faced domestic opposition for its part in the agreement. Protest rallies against the UN's temporary reference were held in the cities of [[Skopje]], [[Kočani]] and [[Resen, Republic of Macedonia|Resen]]. The parliament only accepted the agreement by a narrow margin, with 30 deputies voting in favour, 28 voting against and 13 abstaining. The nationalist opposition [[VMRO-DPMNE]] party called a [[vote of no confidence]] over the naming issue, but the government survived with 62 deputies voting in its favour.<ref>John Phillips, ''Macedonia: Warlords and Rebels in the Balkans'', p. 56. I.B.Tauris, 2004. ISBN 186064841X</ref>

The naming dispute has not been confined to the Balkans, as immigrant communities from both countries have actively defended the positions of their respective homelands around the world, organizing large protest rallies in major European, North American and Australian cities. After Australia recognized the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in early 1994, tensions between the two communities reached a climax, with churches and properties hit by a series of tit-for-tat bomb and arson attacks in [[Melbourne]].<ref>Dennis Ernest Ager, ''Language, Community and the State'', p. 63. Intellect Books, 1997. ISBN 1871516943</ref>

===Interim accord===
[[File:FlagofMacedonia91-95.png|right|150px|thumb|The former flag of the Republic of Macedonia (used from 1992–1995)]]
[[Image:Flag of Macedonia.svg|right|150px|thumb|The current flag of the Republic.]]
Greece and the Republic of Macedonia eventually formalised bilateral relations in an Interim Accord signed in New York on 13 September 1995.<ref name="Interim Accord">{{cite web|url=http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf|title=Interim Accord|date=1995|publisher=[[United Nations]]|accessdate=2008-11-07}}</ref> Under the agreement, the Republic removed the [[Vergina Sun]] from its flag and allegedly [[irredentism|irredentist]] clauses from its constitution, and both countries committed to continuing negotiations on the naming issue under UN auspices. For its part, Greece agreed that it would not object to any application by the Republic so long as it used only the appellation set out in "paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817" (i.e. "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia").{{Fact|date=January 2009}} This opened the door for the Republic to join a variety of international organisations and initiatives, including the [[Council of Europe]], [[OSCE]] and [[Partnership for Peace]].<ref>Edmund Jan Osmanczyk, "Macedonia, former Yugoslav Republic of", in ''Encyclopedia of the United Nations and International Agreements'' ed. Anthony Mango, p. 1355. Routledge, 2002. ISBN 0415939208</ref>

The accord was not a conventional perpetual treaty, as it can be superseded or revoked, but its provisions are legally binding in terms of international law. Most unusually, it did not use the names of either party. Greece, "the Party of the First Part", recognised the Republic of Macedonia under the term "the Party of the Second Part".<ref name="veremis">Thanos Veremis, ''Greece'', pp. 315-316. C. Hurst & Co, 2002. ISBN 185065462X</ref> The accord did not specifically identify either party by name (thus avoiding the awkwardness of Greece having to use the term "Macedonia" in reference to its northern neighbour). Instead, it identified the two parties elliptically by describing the Party of the First Part as having [[Athens]] as its capital and the Party of the Second Part having its capital at [[Skopje]].<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref> Subsequent declarations have continued this practice of referring to the parties without naming them.<ref>See e.g. the [http://old.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/hiperb/bilateral/fyrom.html Agreement on a five year development cooperation programme 2002-2006 between the Government of the Party of the First Part to the Interim Accord 13 September 1995 and the Government of the Party of the Second Part to the Interim Accord 13 September 1995]</ref>

Secretary [[Cyrus Vance]] was the witness of Interim Accord as Special Envoy of the Secretary-General of the United Nations.<ref name="Interim Accord">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=392|title=Interim Accord|date=1995|publisher=[[United Nations]]|accessdate=2008-11-07}}</ref>

=== Stalemate ===

The naming issue has not yet been resolved, but it has effectively reached a stalemate.<ref>Floudas, Demetrius Andreas; {{cite web |publisher= 24 (1996) Journal of Political and Military Sociology, 285|url=http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3719/is_199601/ai_n8752910 | title= "A Name for a Conflict or a Conflict for a Name? An Analysis of Greece's Dispute with FYROM”, |accessdate=2007-01-24}}</ref> Various names had been proposed over the years, for instance "New Macedonia", "Upper Macedonia", "Slavo-Macedonia", "Nova Makedonija", "Macedonia (Skopje)" and so on. However, these had invariably fallen foul of the Greek position that no permanent formula incorporating the term "Macedonia" is acceptable.<ref name="couloumbis">Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore C. Kariotis, Fotini Bellou, ''Greece in the Twentieth Century'', pp. 146-147. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0714654078</ref><ref>Kyriakos Kentrotis, "Echoes from the Past: Greece and the Macedonian Controversy", p. 100 in ''Mediterranean Politics'', ed. Richard Gillespie. Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1996. ISBN 0838636098</ref> Athens had counter-proposed the names "Vardar Republic" or "Republic of Skopje", but the government and opposition parties in Skopje had consistently rejected any solution that eliminates the term "Macedonia" from the country's name.<ref>David Turncock, ''The Human Geography of East Central Europe'', p. 33. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0415121914</ref> Following these developments, Greece has gradually revised its position and demonstrates its acceptance of a "composite solution" (i.e. the incorporation of the term "Macedonia" in the name, but with the use of a disambiguating qualifier).<ref name= GrFA /><ref name= Gorna /><ref name= dashskopje1 /><ref name= dashskopje2 /><ref name= Skai.10.2007>{{el icon}} [http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=62678 Skai News], Συμβιβασμός ή βέτο (''Compromise or Veto''), Retrieved on 2007-10-14. The source uses original quotes from an interview of MFA [[Dora Bakoyannis]] in [[Kathimerini]] newspaper where she supports a composite name solution.</ref><ref>{{en icon}} [http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/15102007_McC_KL1337.htm Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs], ''Interview of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis in the Athens daily Kathimerini, with journalist Ms. D. Antoniou (Sunday, 14 October 2007)'', [full text], Retrieved on 2007-10-15</ref>

The inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia are overwhelmingly opposed to changing the country's name. A June 2007 opinion poll found that 77 per cent of the population were against a change in the country's constitutional name, and 72 per cent supported the Republic's accession to [[NATO]] only if it was admitted under its constitutional name. Only 8 per cent supported accession under the reference "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"<ref>"Macedonians in Favour of NATO Accession Under Constitutional Name", A1 TV, 12 June 2004</ref>.

A number of states recognise the Republic of Macedonia by its constitutional name. A few had recognized it by this name from the start, while most others had switched from recognising it under its UN reference. By September 2007, 118 countries (61% of all UN member states) had recognised the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.<ref name="mia">{{cite news |title=New Draft Resolution Won't Change US Position Towards Macedonia |work=Foreign Ministry |publisher=MIA news agency |location=Skopje |date=2007-08-09 |url=http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2008/08/greek-olympic-committee-protests-over.html}}</ref> Some observers have suggested that the gradual erosion of the Greek position means that "the question appears destined to die" in due course.<ref>Duncan M. Perry, "The Republic of Macedonia: finding its way", in ''Democratization and Authoritarianism in Postcommunist Societies'', ed. Karen Dawisha, Bruce Parrott, p. 270. Cambridge University Press, 1997. ISBN 0521597331</ref> On the other hand, attempts by the Republic to persuade international organisations to drop the provisional reference have met with limited success. A recent example was the rejection by the [[Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe]] of a draft proposal to replace the provisional reference with the constitutional name in [[Council of Europe]] documents.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=22.01.2008,id=10870080|title= Βρήκαν τοίχο τα Σκόπια στο Συμβούλιο της Ευρώπης|work=[[Eleftherotypia|Ελευθεροτυπία]]|author=Νίκος Ρούσσης|date=2008-01-22}}</ref>

The compromise reference is always used in relations when states not recognizing the constitutional name are present. This is because the UN refers to the country only as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", although all UN member-states (and the UN itself) have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries. Moscow's ambassador to Athens, Andrei Vdovin, stated that Russia will support whichever solution stems from the UN compromise talks, while hinting that "it is some other countries that seem to have a problem in doing so".<ref>[http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_1_02/03/2008_261439 Kathimerini], «Ναι» από τη Ρωσία στο όνομα που θα συμφωνηθεί (''"Yes" from Russia in whichever name agreed''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref>

Although the two countries continue to argue over the name, in practice they deal pragmatically with each other. Economic relations and cooperation have resumed to such an extent that Greece is now considered one of the Republic's most important foreign economic partners and investors.<ref>{{cite web | author=National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia | url=http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/WBStorage/Files/AI_Annual_Report_2003_ang.pdf | title=Annual Report 2003 |accessdate=2006-11-19 | format=PDF | work= }}</ref>

Most Greeks reject any use of the word "Macedonia" to describe the Republic of Macedonia, instead calling it "ΠΓΔΜ" (Πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας), the Greek translation of FYROM, or ''[[Skopje]]'' and its inhabitants ''Skopians'' (Greek: ''Σκοπιανοί''), after the country's capital. This [[metonymy|metonymic]] name is not used by non-Greeks, and many inhabitants of the Republic regard it as insulting. Greek official sources sometimes use the term "Slavomacedonian" to refer to the Republic's inhabitants; the US State Department has used the term side by side with "Macedonian", albeit having them both in quotation marks.<ref>{{cite web | author=[[United States Department of State]], Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
|title=Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2005 |accessdate=2006-11-19 | url=http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61651.htm |date=2006-03-09 |format=HTML |work=}}</ref> The name "Macedonian Slavs" (Македонски Словени) is another term used to refer to the ethnic Macedonians by non-Greeks. A number of news agencies have used it (although the BBC recently discontinued its use on the grounds that people had alleged it was offensive), and it is used by the [[Encarta]] Encyclopedia. The name has been occasionally used in early ethnic Macedonian literary sources as in [[Krste Misirkov]]'s work ''On Macedonian Matters'' (Za Makedonckite Raboti) in 1903.

The March 2004 application of the Republic of Macedonia for membership of the European Union may help to speed efforts to find a solution; in a meeting of 14 September 2004, the EU noted that the difference over the name of the Republic of Macedonia still persists and encouraged parties to find a mutually acceptable solution, but stated that it is not part of the conditions for [[Accession of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the European Union|EU accession]]. It was, however, a handicap for its membership into [[NATO]].

===Recent proposals and the "double name formula"===
In 2005, [[Matthew Nimetz]], UN Special Representative, suggested using "Republika Makedonija-Skopje" [sic] for official purposes. Greece did not accept the proposal outright, but characterized it as "a basis for constructive negotiations". Prime Minister [[Vlado Buckovski]] rejected the proposal and counterproposed a "double name formula" where the international community uses "Republic of Macedonia" and Greece uses "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".<ref name=dashskopje1>{{cite news | title=Greece considers Macedonia name | url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4425249.stm | publisher=[[BBC News]] |date=2005-04-08 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }} </ref><ref name=dashskopje2>{{cite web |publisher=Southeast European Times |first=Zoran |last=Nikolovski |date=2005-04-14 |title=Nimitz Proposal For Macedonia's Name Sparks Debate | url=http://www.balkan-info.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2005/04/14/feature-02 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }}</ref>

Nimetz was reported to have made a new proposal in October 2005; that the name "Republika Makedonija" should be used by those countries that have recognized the country under that name and that Greece should use the formula "Republika Makedonija – Skopje", while the international institutions and organizations should use the name "Republika Makedonia" in Latin alphabet transcription. Although the government of the Republic of Macedonia accepted the proposal as a good basis for solving the dispute, Greece rejected the proposal as unacceptable.<ref name="oneworld_20051014">{{cite news |publisher=OneWorld Southeast Europe | url=http://see.oneworld.net/article/view/120536/1/ | title=Matthew Nimitz Will Not Present a New Proposal on the Name date=2005-10-14 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }}</ref>

In December 2006, the government of the Republic announced the intent to rename [[Skopje Airport]] "Petrovec" to "Aleksandar Veliki" ([[Alexander the Great]]).<ref name=kath1>{{cite web| url= http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100006_29/12/2006_78322 | title= Kathimerini | work= A stir over name of Skopje’s airport | accessdate=2007-01-19 | year= Friday 29 December 2006}}</ref> Matthew Nimetz was invited to Athens in January 2007, where he commented that the efforts to mediate in the issue over the name were "affected and not in a positive way".<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=50789&NrIssue=243&NrSection=20 | title= Makfax vesnik | work= Nimetz's talks in Athens included "Alexander the Great" | accessdate=2007-01-19 | year= Friday, 12.01.2007}}</ref>

===NATO and EU accession talks===

The Republic of Macedonia's aspirations to join the European Union and NATO under its constitutional name have caused controversy in recent years. Under the Interim Accord of September 1995, Greece agreed not to obstruct the Republic's applications for membership in international bodies as long as it did so under its provisional UN appellation. Leading Greek officials had repeatedly stated that Athens would [[veto]] the country's accession in the absence of a resolution to the dispute.<ref>{{cite web|title=Southeast European Times|work=Greece to veto Macedonia's EU, NATO bids if name issue not resolved|url=http://setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/newsbriefs/setimes/newsbriefs/2007/09/07/nb-06|accessdate= 2007-09-19}}</ref><ref name=noEUsorry>{{cite web| url=http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=18371 | title=Embassy of Greece - Washington, DC | work=Answer of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis regarding the FYROM name issue | dateformat= mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006 |language= English}}</ref><ref>{{cite web| url=http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=76 |title= United Macedonian Diaspora | work= Interview with Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 2 November 2006}}</ref> The [[Minister for Foreign Affairs (Greece)|Greek foreign minister]], [[Dora Bakoyannis]], stated that "...the [[Hellenic Parliament]], under any composition, will not ratify the accession of the neighbouring country to the [[EU]] and [[NATO]] if the name issue is not resolved beforehand."<ref name=noEUsorry>{{cite web| url=http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=18371 | title=Embassy of Greece - Washington, DC | work=Answer of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis regarding the FYROM name issue | dateformat= mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006 |language= English}}</ref><ref>{{cite web| url=http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=76 |title= United Macedonian Diaspora | work= Interview with Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 2 November 2006}}</ref>

The Greek Prime Minister [[Kostas Karamanlis]] had initially denied ever committing himself unequivocally to exercising Greece's right of veto, stating instead that he would only block the neighbouring country's application for EU and NATO membership if it sought to be admitted as the "Republic of Macedonia",<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20070911&nid=5953596&sn=ΚΥΡΙΟ%20ΤΕΥΧΟΣ&spid= | title= To Vima | work= "I Never Used the Word Veto" | accessdate=2007-01-23 | date= September 11, 2007}}</ref> but on 19 October 2007, he stated that without a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue, the country could not join either NATO or the EU.<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=13321 | title= Eleútheros Týpos | work= "Karamanlis: No accession without a solution for the name" | accessdate=2007-10-25 | date= 19 October 2007}}</ref>

Negotiations between Athens and Skopje were resumed on the 1 November 2007, continued on 1 December of the same year, and a bilateral meeting was held in January 2008. On 19 February 2008 in Athens, the delegations of the two countries met under the auspices of the UN mediator, Matthew Nimetz. They were presented with a new framework, which they both accepted as a basis for further negotiations. The new framework was intended to be secret for the negotiations to take place, but leaked early in the press. The full text in Greek was published initially by ''[[To Vima]]'' and circulated fast in all major media. It contained 8 points, and the general idea was a "composite name solution" for all international purposes.<ref name=NimetzComprText>[http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=22.02.2008,id=81896072 Enet News], Ολόκληρο το κείμενο της πρότασης Νίμιτς (''Whole text of the Nimetz proposal'') ([http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.enet.gr%2Fonline%2Fonline_text%2Fc%3D110%2Cdt%3D22.02.2008%2Cid%3D81896072&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 Automatic translation in English]), Retrieved on 2008-03-06.</ref> It also contained five proposed names:<ref name=NimetzComprText />

*"Constitutional Republic of Macedonia"
*"Democratic Republic of Macedonia"
*"Independent Republic of Macedonia"
*"New Republic of Macedonia"
*"Republic of Upper Macedonia"

On 27 February 2008, a rally was held in Skopje called by several organizations in support of the name "Republic of Macedonia".<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8192/ Balkan Insight.com], ''Macedonians Rally 'To Protect Name','' Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref> Greek nationalist party [[Popular Orthodox Rally]] also organized a similar rally in Thessaloniki on 5 March, in support of the name "Macedonia" being used only by Greece.<ref>[http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,id=22605288 Enet.gr], Συλλαλητήριο ΛΑΟΣ την άλλη Τετάρτη στη Θεσσαλονίκη (''LAOS Demonstration next Wednesday in Thessaloniki''), Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref> The Greek church and both major Greek parties have strongly discouraged such manifestations "during this sensitive time of negotiation".<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74729 Skai News], Εκ του σύνεγγυς στη Νέα Υόρκη (''Concurrently in New York''), Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74772 Skai News], Χαμηλοί τόνοι (''Low tones''), Retrieved on 2008-02-29.</ref>

On 2 March 2008 in New York, Matthew Nimetz announced that the talks failed, that there is a "gap" in the positions of the two countries, and that there will not be any progress, unless there is some sort of compromise, which he characterized as "valuable" for both sides.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74961 Skai News] "Ναυάγιο" στις διαπραγματεύσεις (''"Shipwreck" in the talks''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75029 Skai News], Στην Αθήνα με "μήνυμα" ο Σέφερ (''[[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer|Scheffer]] in Athens with a "message"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> After Greek PM Karamanlis's warnings that "no solution equals no invitation",<ref name=GrVeto>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74863 Skai News], "Μη λύση σημαίνει μη πρόσκληση" (''No Solution equals No Invitation''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> the Greek media took it for granted that Greece would [[veto]] the coming [[NATO Membership Action Plan|NATO accession talks]] for the country, in the Foreign Ministers' summit on 6 March 2008 in Brussels.<ref>[http://www.ant1online.gr/Politics/Diplomacy/Pages/20083/fd8a8be7-93f3-4f9f-87dc-8f6525a2f9e5.aspx Ant1 News], Ώρα μηδέν για το Σκοπιανό (''Time Zero for the Skopjan issue''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref><ref name=GrVeto2>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=878422&lngDtrID=244 in.gr], Στην Αθήνα τη Δευτέρα ο γγ του ΝΑΤΟ με φόντο το αδιέξοδο στο θέμα της ΠΓΔΜ (''NATO Secretary in Athens on Monday after FYROM issue deadlock''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref>

Meanwhile, in a newer poll in Greece, the "composite name that includes the name Macedonia for the country" seemed, for the first time, to be marginally more popular than the previous more hard-lined stance of "no Macedonia in the title" (43% vs 42%). In the same poll, 84% of the respondents were pro-veto in the country's NATO accession talks, if the issue wasn't resolved by then.<ref name=GrVeto2 /><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74967 Skai News], Υπέρ του βέτο το 84% των Ελλήνων (''84% of Greeks Are For Veto''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> All Greek political parties except the small nationalist party Popular Orthodox Rally support the "composite name for all uses" solution, and vehemently oppose to any "[[Macedonia naming dispute#Recent proposals and the .22double name formula.22|double name]]" formula which is proposed by the republic.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74076 Skai News], Ενημέρωση για την πρόταση Νίμιτς (''Briefing on Nimetz's proposal''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> This shift in the official and public position was described by the PM of Greece as "the maximum recoil possible".<ref name=GrVeto />

Following his visit to Athens for an attempt to persuade the Greek government not to proceed in a veto, the NATO Secretary General [[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer]] implied that the onus to compromise rested on the Republic of Macedonia.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7276524.stm BBC News], ''Macedonia urged to solve name row'', Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref> In the same spirit, the EU enlargement commissioner [[Olli Rehn]], expressed his fear that "it might have negative consequences on [[Accession of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the European Union|FYROM’s EU bid]], although it is a bilateral question, Greece - as any other EU member - has the right to veto".<ref name=GapRemains>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75294 Skai News], "Παραμένει το χάσμα" (''"The gap remains"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref><ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8393/ BalkanInsight], ''EU Warns Over Macedonia 'Name','' Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=103916&NrIssue=600&NrSection=10 Makfax Online], ''Rehn requested settling of the name issue'', Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref> On 5 March 2008, Nimetz visited Skopje to try to find common ground on his proposal, but announced that "the gap remains".<ref name=GapRemains/>

As earlier anticipated, on 6 March 2008, in the NATO Foreign Minister's summit in Brussels, Greek minister [[Dora Bakoyannis]] announced that "as regards the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, ... , unfortunately, the policy followed by our neighbouring country in its relations with Greece, on the one side with intransigence and on the other with a logic of nationalist and irredentist actions tightly connected with the naming issue, does not allow us to maintain a positive stance, as we did for Croatia and Albania. ... As long as there is no such solution, Greece will remain an insuperable obstacle to the European and Euro-Atlantic ambition of FYROM".<ref name=veto1>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75394 Skai News], "Η Ελλάδα ανυπέρβλητο εμπόδιο" (''"Greece, an insuperable obstacle"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-07.</ref><ref name=veto2>[http://www.skai.gr/master_avod.php?id=75389 Skai News Video], "Λύση ή Βέτο" (''"Solution or Veto"''), video of Bakoyannis' press interview after the summit, Retrieved on 2008-03-07.</ref>

On 7 March 2008, the US [[Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs]], [[Daniel Fried]], made an unscheduled visit to Skopje, with the message that the two sides must cooperate with Matthew Nimetz to find a mutually acceptable solution for the naming dispute.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75520 Skai News], Επαφές στα Σκόπια (''Contacts in Skopje''), Retrieved on 2008-03-08.</ref>

Concerns have been expressed in Skopje and Athens on the stability of the governing coalition of [[VMRO-DPMNE]] and [[Democratic Party of Albanians]] (DPA) and subsequently the negotiating power of PM [[Nikola Gruevski]] with regards to the naming dispute, after the leader of DPA Menduh Thaçi accused the government of not complying to its requests about the rights of [[Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia]].<ref name=crisis>[http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSL12922300 Reuters], "Albanian party threatens to bring down Macdonian govt", Retrieved on 2008-03-12</ref> Greek media considered the option that the crisis may be a diplomatic way of increasing the pressure for the Greek side.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75990 Skai News], Νέοι Ελιγμοί (''New Tactics''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref> Following a call for cooperation by the president [[Branko Crvenkovski]], the other four major parties agreed to support Gruevski's government until [[2008 Bucharest summit|NATO's convention in Bucharest]] on 4 April 2008.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76055 Skai News], Σκόπια: Έκκληση για πολιτική συναίνεση (''Skopje: Call for political cooperation''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76105 Skai News], Στηρίζουν Γκρουέφκσι (''[They] Support Gruevski''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref>

Following the declaration of Athens for a veto, the press in Skopje reported increased intervention from the United States to solve the dispute, through [[Victoria Nuland]], the US NATO ambassador.<ref name=Unchanged /> Antonio Milošoski announced that "Nimetz's proposal remains unchanged".<ref name=Unchanged /> The daily newspaper ''[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|Dnevnik]]'' reported that diplomatic sources claim that this is the last attempt from the American leadership to help in finding a solution, and that the target of this effort will be for the country to retreat from its position for a "double name formula" and Greece to accept something along these lines.<ref name=Unchanged /> It continued that the US would exercise pressure to both parts for finding a solution until NATO's summit, so that the alliance can be expanded.<ref name=Unchanged /> [[Olli Rehn]] urged "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to show the correct political will in seizing the opportunity to find an acceptable solution for both parts".<ref name=Unchanged>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75753 Skai News], "Η εντολή του Νίμιτς παραμένει ως έχει" (''"Nimetz's order remains unchanged"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

A new meeting between Nimetz and the two parties was arranged on 17 March 2008, in Vienna, in the office of the former US special envoy to Kosovo and ex-[[president of Finland]], [[Martti Ahtisaari]].<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76251 Skai News], Ξεκίνησαν οι Συνομιλίες (''The Talks Began''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref> Nimetz noted that he did not present any new proposals, thanked the United States with whom he said he was in contact, and urged more countries to help in solving the dispute. He also announced that he is more optimistic after this meeting, and that he focused only on the solutions that could be applied by NATO's summit in April.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76261 Skai News], Αισιόδοξος ο Νιμιτς (''Nimetz is Optimistic''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

According to the press in the Republic of Macedonia<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=86447574CFD4D748998828E31E075A41|title=По Виена Нимиц е поголем оптимист за името (After Vienna Nimetz is a bigger optimist about the name)|date=2008-03-18|publisher=[[Utrinski vesnik (daily newspaper)|Utrinski Vesnik]]|language=Macedonian|accessdate=2008-05-11}}</ref> Nimetz now limited his proposal to three names of the five that were proposed in his original framework:<ref name=NimetzComprText />

*"Republic of Upper Macedonia"
*"New Republic of Macedonia" or "Republic of New Macedonia"
*"Republic of Macedonia-Skopje"

Of the three, Greek media have reported that the only serious contender is "New Macedonia", being the solution favoured throughout the current round of negotiations by Washington, which regards it as the "most neutral" option.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20080319&nid=7890209&sn=&spid=|title=Αναζητούν συμβιβασμό με «Νέα Μακεδονία» (''Seeking a compromise with "New Macedonia"'')|work=[[To Vima]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-19}}</ref> According to some reports, all three proposals were swiftly rejected by Skopje on the grounds that "neither would constitute a logical basis for a solution, given that all had been rejected by one or the other side over the last 15 years".<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76371 Skai News], "Όχι" από Σκόπια στις προτάσεις Νίμιτς (''"No" from Skopje to Nimetz proposals''), Retrieved on 2008-03-19.</ref> Greek diplomatic sources have intimated that international pressure has now shifted towards the former Yugoslav republic.<ref name=3proposals>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76333 Skai News], Εντατικές διαπραγματεύσεις για το όνομα (''Intense negotiations for the name''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

A special meeting outside the auspices of the UN was arranged on 21 March 2008, at US ambassador's to NATO [[Victoria Nuland]]'s house in Brussels, between the two foreign ministers [[Dora Bakoyannis]] and [[Antonio Milošoski]] and with the presence of the US [[Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs]], [[Daniel Fried]].<ref name=commitment>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76459 Skai News], "Δέσμευση" για το όνομα (''"Commitment" for the name''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref><ref name=commitment2>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76552 Skai News], Νέος γύρος συνομιλιών για το όνομα (''New round of talks for the name''),Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref> Following the meeting, both ministers stressed for the first time their "commitment" for finding a solution until NATO's summit.<ref name=commitment /><ref name=commitment2 />

The first voices seeking compromise have started to be heard in Skopje.<ref name= compromisevoices>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76555 Skai News], Σύσκεψη για το όνομα στα Σκόπια (''Meeting for the name in Skopje''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref> The president of the republic, [[Branko Crvenkovski]], announced: "If during the ongoing talks we can reach a rational compromise, which from the one side will defend our ethnic identity, and from the other will enable us to receive the NATO invitation, while at the same time canceling our further EU accession obstacles, then I think that this is something that must be supported, and I personally side with the supporters. Some accuse me that with my stance I am undermining the negotiating position of the Republic of Macedonia, yet I do not agree, because we are not in the beginning, but in the final phase of the negotiations. The one who will tell me that the price is high, is obliged to address the public opinion and announce an alternative scenario on how Macedonia will develop in the next ten to fifteen years."<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=884242&lngDtrID=244 in.gr], Ενισχύονται οι φωνές στο εσωτερικό της ΠΓΔΜ για ένα «λογικό συμβιβασμό» στην ονομασία (''Voices within FYROM for a "logical compromise" are louder''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref>

In the same spirit, opposing [[New Social Democratic Party]] party leader [[Tito Petkovski]] (which by now participates in the governmental coalition until NATO's summit), announced: "I do not hide that we must proceed on a international usage name's change, with some type of addition, which in no way must put our values under question. I do not want to proceed in an auction with the name, because that will be very damaging also for the interests of the neighboring country that disputes it." He added that "the overwhelming majority of the state and the scholars, ask for a solution and for a way out, using something that does not put our identity and our cultural distinction under questioning. I think that such a solution can be found, especially if the greatest lobbyists and supporters of ours, the United States, declare that Macedonia will be safe, with a safe territorial integrity, with financial support and dynamic development. If we declare which name we support, probably there will be more terms".<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2 />

However, governing [[VMRO-DPMNE]] party leader, and current prime minister, [[Nikola Gruevski]], when asked to comment on these statements, said: "We have different views with Mr.Petkovski, however there is still time to overcome these differences and reach a solution which will benefit the country".<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2 />

Centre-left Greek newspaper ''[[To Vima]]'' reported that the two countries were close to an agreement on the basis of the name "New Macedonia" or the untranslated native form, "Nova Makedonija".<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20080321&nid=7901142&sn=&spid=|title=Πιθανή συμφωνία στο «Νέα Μακεδονία» (''Possible agreement on "New Macedonia"'')|work=[[To Vima]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-21}}</ref>

Another meeting under the auspices of UN mediator [[Matthew Nimetz]] was held in New York on 25 March 2008.<ref name=geoMk >[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76795 Skai News], "Όνομα με γεωγραφική διάσταση" (''"Name with a geographic dimension"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-26.</ref> Nimetz announced his final proposal, with a name "with a geographic dimension, and for all purposes".<ref name=geoMk /> He also noted that the proposal is a compromise, and that the ways of implementation are also included in his proposal. The two representatives will urgently return to their countries for consultation on this proposal, given the short timeframe until NATO's summit.<ref name=geoMk /> According to the latest Greek media reports, Nimetz revived his 2005 proposal, "Republic of Macedonia-Skopje".
<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76800|title=Νέα ονομασία (''New name'')|work=[[Skai TV|ΣΚΑΪ.gr]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-26}}</ref> The news agency for Macedonian private television station [[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1]] reported that the full proposal was:
*The constitutional name, in Cyrillic ("Република Македонија") could be used for internal purposes.
*"Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" would be used for international relations.
*For bilateral relations, "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" is suggested, and any countries using the state's constitutional name would be encouraged to use it, but not forced to change it.
*The terms "Macedonia" and "Macedonian", on their own, would be able to be used freely by both countries
The Macedonian government has not yet issued a statement on whether the proposal has been accepted or rejected.<ref>{{citenews|http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=91146|title=Нимиц предложи формула за решавање на спорот (''Nimetz proposes a formula for solving the dispute'')|work=[[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1 News]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis told journalists that the proposal does not meet Greece's stated objectives.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8777&pubid=728559|title=Δεν ικανοποιεί την Ελλάδα η πρόταση (''The proposal does not satisfy Greece'')|work=[[Ethnos (newspaper)|Ethnos]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=91130|title=Бакојани: Предлогот е далеку од целите на Грција (''The proposal is far from the objectives of Greece'')|work=[[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1 News]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

The Macedonian foreign minister, Antonio Milošoski, stated that any reasonable solution that did not impose on the identity of ethnic Macedonians would be explored. However, he also stated that if Greece were to veto the country's entrance into NATO, compromise talks would be stopped.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=4EF69757C67A414BB0E4B6373240DF8C|title=Македонија подготвена за разумен компромис (''Macedonia prepared for a reasonable compromise'')|work=[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|Dnevnik newspaper]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=0&EditionID=964&ArticleID=51657|title=Има мала надеж за компромис (''There is still small hope for a compromise'')|work=[[Nova Makedonija (newspaper)|Nova Makedonija]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|http://www.vest.com.mk/default.asp?id=149257&idg=8&idb=2333&rubrika=Makedonija|title=Грчко вето ќе ги прекине преговорите (''A Greek veto will stop the negotiations'')|work=Vest|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

Meanwhile, police in Skopje said they were investigating death threats against academics, journalists and politicians who publicly favour reaching a compromise in the dispute with Greece.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/27/europe/EU-GEN-Macedonia-Death-Threats.php|title=Macedonia police examine death threats over name dispute|work=[[International Herald Tribune]]|date=2008-03-27}}</ref>

===NATO non-invitation===
{{seealso|2008 Bucharest summit}}

On 3 April 2008, in [[NATO]]'s [[2008 Bucharest summit|summit in Bucharest]], Greece presented its case on the non-invitation of the republic. NATO secretary general [[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer]] announced the mutually agreed text of the NATO members, which included the following points:

* Reason for no invitation was the inability to find solution in the name dispute
* Open invitation to the government of Skopje for new negotiations for the name under the auspices of the United Nations,
* The wish that those negotiations start as soon as possible
* And the further wish that they are concluded as soon as possible, without mentioning a specific time frame.<ref name=NewData>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=77661 Skai News], Νέα δεδομένα μετά το βέτο (''New situation after veto'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D77661&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 machine translation in English]), retrieved on 2008-04-03.</ref><ref name=Mega-2008-04-03>[http://www.megatv.com/gegonota/shownews.asp?id=31270&cat=1 Mega channel], ΝΑΤΟ: Μόνο με λύση η πρόσκληση (''NATO: Invitation only after solution'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.megatv.com%2Fgegonota%2Fshownews.asp%3Fid%3D31270%26cat%3D1&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 machine translation in English]), retrieved on 2008-04-03.</ref><ref name=NATOdecl>NATO 2008 Bucharest summit, [http://www.summitbucharest.ro/en/doc_202.html Bucharest Summit Declaration Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008] (par.20), Retrieved on 2008-04-13.</ref>

A major concern cited by Greek officials was a number of maps that have circulated by nationalist groups based in Skopje depicting parts of Greece (including Thessaloniki, Greece's second largest city) as being part of a future [[United Macedonia]], and the country's prime minister photographed laying a wreath under such a map just a few weeks before the summit.<ref>Greece, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/280308_alp_1640.htm Interview of FM Ms. Bakoyannis in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, with journalist Michael Martens]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>[[Dora Bakoyannis|Bakoyannis, Dora]], [[Wall Street Journal]], ''[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120701620662579369.html All in a Name]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>''[http://www.greeksoccer.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=235052139&mode=threaded&pid=1052837018 the picture at Greeksoccer.com]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> Also a poster displayed in Skopje just days before the Bucharest summit by an artist replacing the white cross on the [[Flag of Greece|Greek flag]] with the [[swastika]], as a way of comparing modern Greece to [[Nazi Germany]].<ref>[[The Daily Telegraph|Telegraph.co.uk]], [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/02/wmacedonia102.xml Macedonia row overshadows NATO summit]</ref> and caricatures of Greek PM Karamanlis depicted wearing a Nazi SS uniform,<ref>[[International Herald Tribune]], ''[http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/02/europe/EU-GEN-Greece-Macedonia-NATO.php Greece insists Macedonia will not be invited to join NATO if name issue is not resolved]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> led to vigorous Greek diplomatic protests and international condemnation,<ref>[http://www.in.gr/innews/article.asp?lngEntityID=887497 in.gr] Στη «μάχη του Βουκουρεστίου» για το όνομα της ΠΓΔΜ ο Κ.Καραμανλής (''C. Karamanlis to "Bucharest's battle" for FYROM's name'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.in.gr%2Finnews%2Farticle.asp%3FlngEntityID%3D887497&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>[http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_2028157717 News.bg], Olli Rehn Condemns the Language of Hatred Against Greece and Bulgaria in Macedonian Media, retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> although the government disassociated itself from the depictions and expressed it has no connection and no authority over artists' works.<ref>[[BBC News]], [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7324510.stm Greek fury over swastika poster]</ref>

According to media reports, the Greek position was strongly supported by France and Spain. Italy, Portugal, [[Luxembourg]], [[Iceland]], Belgium, Hungary, [[Slovakia]], and the Netherlands also showed understanding to the Greek concerns.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 /><ref>''[[Eleftherotypia]]'', [http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=04.04.2008,id=86594016 Η επιμονή Μπους και η αλληλεγγύη των Ευρωπαίων στην Ελλάδα] (''Bush's insistence and the European support to Greece''), retrieved on 2008-04-05.</ref><ref>''[[Eleftherotypia]]'', [http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint?q=%D3%EA%FC%F0%E9%E1&a=&id=15246048 Αρνηση, χωρίς χρονοδιάγραμμα και με ήπιες αντιδράσεις] (''Refusal, without time frame and with moderate reactions''), retrieved on 2008-04-05.</ref>

The US proposal for inviting the country under its UN provisional reference (FYROM) was backed by [[Turkey]], [[Slovenia]], the Czech Republic, [[Estonia]], [[Lithuania]], Denmark, [[Bulgaria]], and Norway.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 />

Germany, the United Kingdom, and Canada were reported neutral.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 />

According to polls, 95% of Greeks consider that the veto was a correct action, while only 1% oppose it.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=77905 Skai News], Σωστό το βέτο για το 95% (''Veto correct for 95%'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D77905&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> At the same time, Greece maintains its focus on promoting its neighbour's NATO and EU accession as soon as the naming issue is resolved.<ref>[http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080429/COMMENTARY/877032880 Washington Times], In the name of a common future, Retrieved on 2008-04-30.</ref>

===A continuing negotiation===

The [[Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia]] voted on 11 April 2008 to dissolve itself and hold [[Macedonian parliamentary election, 2008|early elections]] within sixty days.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=78540 Skai News], Πρόωρες εκλογές στη ΠΓΔΜ (''Early elections in FYROM'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D78540&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), Retrieved on 2008-04-12.</ref> Following a meeting with the four major parties, president [[Branko Crvenkovski]] announced the continuation of the negotiations for the name, despite the parliament dissolution.<ref name=NegCont>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=78533 Skai News], Συνεχίζονται οι διαπραγματεύσεις (''Negotiations continue'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D78533&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), Retrieved on 2008-04-12.</ref> The parties agreed that the dispute should not be a matter of heavy political debate before the elections.<ref name=NegCont />

Matthew Nimetz visited Skopje on 17 April 2008 and Athens on the following day, initiating a new cycle of negotiations, but without bearing a new proposal yet.<ref name=NegCont />

Talks continued in New York from 30 April to 2 May 2008, though Nimetz again did not propose a new compromise name.<ref>[http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/newsbriefs/setimes/newsbriefs/2008/04/30/nb-03 Southeast European Times], ''Macedonia, Greece continue name dispute talks in New York'', Retrieved on 2008-05-27.</ref>

===The newest proposal and reactions===

According to ethnic Macedonian and Greek media, the main points of the proposal from 8 October 2008 are the following<ref>[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|]], ''[http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/default.asp?ItemID=5C24E9C6AE578B45B4AAB7E8C30E2BE7 Интегралната верзија на предлог-документот од медијаторот Нимиц]'' (Comprehensive version on name-documents by mediator Nimetz), Retrieved on 2008-10-10.</ref>:<ref>[[Ta Nea]], ''[http://www.tanea.gr/default.asp?pid=2&ct=1&artId=1403491 Παράθυρο για διπλή ονομασία]'' (Α window for double naming), Retrieved on 2008-10-10.</ref>

*the name "Republic of Macedonia" will stay the official name inside the country (in the native language)
*the name for the country in all official purposes (i.e. [[United Nations]], [[EU]], [[NATO]]) will be "Republic of North Macedonia" ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: Република Северна Македонија)
*UN Security Council will suggest to third countries to use the name "Republic of North Macedonia" in official bilateral relations
*the name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" will no more be an acceptable name for the country
*"Macedonia" alone cannot be used by any of the two parties as an official name for the country or the region.
*Both parties can use "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" in unofficial settings, with the precondition that they will not claim exclusive rights of any kind.

*the frontpage of the [[Macedonian passport]]s will contain the following names for the country:
**''Republic of North Macedonia'' in English
**''République de Macédoine du Nord'' in French
**''Република Македонија'' in [[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]
*Greece will support the integration of its neighbouring country into [[EU]] and [[NATO]]
*both countries will confirm that they have no territorial claims towards each other

=====Reaction by ethnic Macedonian politicians/diplomats=====

The cabinet of the [[President of the Republic of Macedonia]], [[Branko Crvenkovski]], announced that the Republic of Macedonia wants "serious changes" in the latest proposal and that the presented set of ideas could not be a basis for the resolution of the dispute. Prime minister [[Nikola Gruevski]] agreed with Crvenkovski.<ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=127775&NrIssue=788&NrSection=10 Makfax Online, internet daily newspaper],</ref>

=====Reaction by Greek politicians/diplomats=====

The English edition of the Greek newspaper Kathimerini reported that Greek diplomats, privately, have welcomed the proposals. Greek Foreign Minister [[Dora Bakoyannis]], however, has not yet made a comment on the newest set of proposals. It is also said, that Athens will not state its position before Skopje.<ref>[http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100002_10/10/2008_101178 Kathimerini, English edition]</ref> In the mean time, all major opposition parties have already expressed serious concerns about the proposal since it crosses the "red line" that Greece has set on a single name to be used ''[[erga omnes]]''.<ref>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=945957&lngDtrID=244 in.gr (in Greek)]</ref>

Before either Athens or Skopje had officially responded to the proposal, the Athenian daily ''Ethnos'' published an alleged secret diplomatic correspondence of the [[United States Department of State|US State Department]]. The leaked document, originally tagged as classified until 2018,<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8333&pubid=1738592|title=«Θα τα περάσουμε όλα σιωπηλά» ("We will get everything through quietly")|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> was said to detail a behind-the-scenes deal between Washington and Skopje on the main provisions of the Nimetz proposal as early as July.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8777&pubid=1738591|title=Οι ιδέες ήταν τελικά της Ράις (The ideas were ultimately Rice's)|last=Meletis|first=Nikos|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> According to the newspaper, the latest UN-sponsored set of ideas were secretly sketched to please Skopje by the US Secretary of State [[Condoleezza Rice]] three months earlier.<ref name="Balkan Insight">{{cite news|url=http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14100/|title=Macedonia Denies ‘Secret Work’ with US|date=2008-10-20|work=[[Balkan Insight]]|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref> The report sparked outrage in Greece, with opposition parties accusing the government of tolerating "US interference" in the UN mediation process and calling for Greece's withdrawal from the negotiations.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8333&pubid=1742569|title=Απροκάλυπτη παρέμβαση (Blatant interference)|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> Skopje "strongly and categorically" denied all claims of the existence of a secret deal with Washington.<ref name="Balkan Insight"/>

===The UN International Court of Justice===
In November 2008, Skopje referred Athens to the [[International Court of Justice]] for what it called a "flagrant violation" of Greece's obligations under the 1995 Interim Accord.<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=318&id=480 Republic of Macedonia Ministry of Foreign Affairs: "Greece objected to extending an invitation to Macedonia to join NATO, in flagrant violation of its obligations under the Interim Accord.
</ref> An outcome could take up to five years.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14845/ "BREAKING: Macedonia Takes Greece to World Court"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-actualite/marches/update-macedonia-sues-greece-for-blocking-nato-entry-563320 "UPDATE: Macedonia Sues Greece For Blocking NATO Entry"] ''easybourse.com'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=132181&NrIssue=822&NrSection=10 "Macedonia seeks for justice over Greek veto in ICJ"] ''makfax.com.mk'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref> In response, Greece issued a statement condemning its northern neighbour for "confirming that it is not interested in a solution", adding that "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has itself flagrantly violated a series of fundamental obligations expressly foreseen by the Accord, including the fundamental principle of good neighbourly relations."<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_kathremote_1_17/11/2008_256566|title=Κουμουτσάκος: Η ΠΓΔΜ επιβεβαιώνει ότι δεν ενδιαφέρεται για επίλυση (''Koumoutsakos: FYROM confirms that it is not interested in a solution'')|date=2008-11-17|work=[[Kathimerini]]|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-11-18}}</ref><ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14871/ "Greece Pans Macedonia Over World Court Bid"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[18 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 18/11/08</ref> The prime minister of the Republic of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski announced on 25 November that the "name negotiations resume despite Macedonia’s lawsuit against Greece".<ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1733 Macedonian Government website</ref> The EU has so far not commented on the latest situation.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14879/ "EU Quiet on Macedonia’s World Court Bid"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[18 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 18/11/08</ref>. Reinforcing the Greek position that in the summit of Bucharest there was no veto, on the 21st of November in a conference in Skopje, the Czech representative in NATO Štefan Füle reiterated that there has not been a veto from Greece but a consensus on non-invitation.<ref>http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59315063&lId=2</ref> At the end of November, the Republic of Macedonia appointed [[Zoran Jolevski]] as the new negotiator to the name talks with Greece.<ref>http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=30&vId=59566878&lId=2&title=MACEDONIA+-+FOREIGN+AFFAIRS+</ref>

The Gruevski government's decision to pursue legal action against Athens was criticised by President [[Branko Crvenkovski]], highlighting the internal tensions in Skopje between the government and the presidency. Noting that the process could take years, the president called it a "waste of valuable time", given that there was no way for the World Court to enforce any verdict in Skopje's favour.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_kathremote_1_01/12/2008_258435|title=Τσερβένκοφσκι: Χάσιμο χρόνου η προσφυγή στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο (''Crvenkovski: Recourse to the World Court a waste of time'')|date=2008-12-01|work=[[Kathimerini]]|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-12-01}}</ref>

===Talks in 2009===
The first round of name talks in 2009 took place on 11 February.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=30&vId=62064882&lId=2&title=MACEDONIA+-+FOREIGN+AFFAIRS+ Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> The UN Mediator Nimetz did not propose a new solution for the name row, but it was agreed that talks should continue after elections in Greece and the Republic of Macedonia, probably in July or August.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=62247087&lId=2&pmId=501 Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> Republic of Macedonia's new name negotiator [[Zoran Jolevski]] told the mediator and the Greek negotiator that if the Republic of Macedonia would receive a [[NATO]] membership invitation at the Alliance's next summit in April, this would be positive for the name talks.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=62247087&lId=2&pmId=501 Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> One week before the fresh name talks, Macedonian foreign minister [[Antonio Milošoski]] told [[Germany|German]] newspaper ''"[[die tageszeitung]]"'' that a solution could be found "only on bilateral basis". The Republic of Macedonia indicated it could be ready to allow Greece to use another name for the country, such as ''"Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)"'', however, the Macedonian citizens would decide on a referendum for that.<ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/2273 Macedonian Government web site]</ref> In addition, foreign minister [[Antonio Milošoski]] sent a letter to the Greek foreign ministry with a proposal of forming a joint committee of scholars from both countries who would work on determining the historical facts of the dispute. However, the proposals was rejected by Athens.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=63394599&lId=2 Macedonian Information Agency -Greece rejects FM Milososki's initiative ]</ref>

====CSIS Conference====
On April 14, 2009, at the [[Center for Strategic and International Studies]] Conference on the topic of Completing America's Mission in the Balkans moderated by [[Janusz Bugajski]], the Ambassador of Macedonia H.E. [[Zoran Jolevski]] stated the following <blockquote>
"Greece, in essence, moved the goal posts further away, and our fear is that they will continue to move the goal posts again, and again, and again. The question then becomes, will they stop? Because, dear friends, the dignity and identity of an entire nation is at stake here that cannot be compromised."
</blockquote>

Later on, they moved into an open discussion where the Greek Ambassador in the US [[Alexandros Mallias]] stated that Greece would accept the last proposal by the UN Mediator [[Matthew Nimetz]] which is to Macedonia to be called "Republic of Northern Macedonia" in the international society.<ref>[http://makfax.com.mk/en-us/Details.aspx?ItemID=3097 Makfax News Agency of Macedonia - Greece - Good proposal over name finally on table]</ref>

==Lists of countries and organisations==
===Lists of countries===
World map with countries/entities using Republic of Macedonia or the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

[[Image:MacedoniaNameDisputeMap.svg|thumb|center|650px|List of countries/entities {{legend|yellow|Republic of Macedonia / former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.}} {{legend|#7ca4e0|that use "Republic of Macedonia" in bilateral diplomatic relations.}} {{legend|#E1867C|that use "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes.}} {{legend|#A9A9A9|that have no official position on the issue.}}]]

{{MultiCol}}

====List of countries/entities using "Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes
====List of countries/entities using "Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes====
As of February 2008, up to 125 countries recognise the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.<ref>{{cite web | title = FM Milososki: Name row a result of Greece's desire to protect its myth of pure nation | url = http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/2273 Government of the Republic of Macedonia | quote = the fact that 125 countries in the world have recognised Macedonia's constitutional name is a clear signal that the country has international support }}</ref>

Four of the five permanent [[UN Security Council]] members:
* {{flag|United States of America}} ([[NATO]] and [[G8]] member ): The federal government uses "Republic of Macedonia",<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/26759.htm | title=Background Note: Macedonia | accessdate=2007-09-08}}</ref> while the [[United States Congress|US Congress]] uses the mixed designation "Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)".<ref>NATO {{cite web | url=http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.494.ENR: | title=NATO Freedom Consolidation Act of 2007 (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate) | accessdate = 2007-06-12}}</ref>
* {{flag|United Kingdom}} ([[EU]], NATO and G8 member)<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1019233917528 | title=Country Profiles: Republic of Macedonia | accessdate=2007-09-08}}</ref>
* {{flag|People's Republic of China}}<ref>{{cite web|url=http://english.people.com.cn/english/200106/18/eng20010618_72901.html| title=People's daily |work=China, Macedonia Sign Joint Communique on Normalization of Relations |accessdate=2007-01-02}}</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/974 Government of the Republic of Macedonia]</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = Interview of President of Macedonia, Crvenkovski for Xinhua | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=6&InfoID=3110 web site of the President of Macedonia | quote = China’s recognition and establishment of diplomatic relations with our country under our constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Russia}} (G8 member)<ref>[http://www.mid.ru/zu_r.nsf/e0f3cd1a55ff248dc32571e7003f460b/909fdd5998c7c8c3c32565e800360468?OpenDocument Russian Embassy in the Republic of Macedonia]</ref>

All states formerly part of [[SFR Yugoslavia]]:
* {{flag|Bosnia-Herzegovina}} <ref name="CEFTA">[http://www.stabilitypact.org/trade/Cefta%20Agreement%20Amendment%20of%20and%20Accession%20to%20the%20Central%20European%20Free%20Trade%20Agreement%20-%20Preamble.pdf CEFTA 2006 text, signed by "the Republic of Macedonia" and "the Republic of Montenegro"], ''Stability Pact for Southeast Europe'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Croatia}} (NATO member) <ref name="CEFTA"/><ref>{{cite web | url= http://www.mvpei.hr/MVP.asp?pcpid=13&dmid=127#pocdrz |title=Ministarstvo vanjsklh poslova I europsklh integracija |work= Republika Makedonija - Uspostava diplomatskih odnosa: 30.3.1992 | accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1179 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Kosovo}}<ref name="Kosova">{{cite web|url=http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=57799927&lId=2&pmId=502|title=Hyseni: Kosovo recognizes Macedonia's constitutional name|date=2008-10-13|work=MIA - Macedonian Information Agency|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref>
* {{flag|Montenegro}} <ref name="CEFTA"/>
* {{flag|Serbia}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.rs/Policy/Bilaterala/Macedonia/basic_e.html Republic of Serbia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Slovenia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title=Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Slovenia | work=Macedonia |accessdate=2007-01-02 | url= http://www.mzz.gov.si/index.php?id=539&L=2}}</ref>

In addition, the following countries have also recognised the nation by its constitutional name:
* {{flag|Algeria}}<ref>[http://193.194.78.233/ma_fr/stories.php?story=04/05/19/6156295 Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres - Republique Algerienne Democratique et Populaire]</ref>
* {{flag|Argentina}}<ref>Argentine Ministry of Foreign Affairs ''[http://www.mrecic.gov.ar/portal/repre_argentinas/plantilla.php?id=87&concurrencia=113 Embassy of Macedonia in Sofia, Bulgaria]''</ref>
* {{flag|Austria}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.bmeia.gv.at/aussenministerium/buergerservice/oesterreichische-vertretungen.html?no_cache=1 Diplomatic representation], [http://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/foreign-ministry/foreign-policy/voelkerrecht/treaties-in-german/bilateral-treaties-in-german.html?ADMCMD_view=1&LNG=de&dv_name=Mazedonien&dv_staat=0&mode=country&submit=1&vb_vp_id=261&cHash=19e87fb504 Bilateral agreements]</ref>
* {{flag|Azerbaijan}}<ref>[http://azembassy.com.my/links/index.htm Diplomatic Missions of Azerbaijan]</ref>
* {{flag|Belarus}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.by/ru/about/foreign_missions/ Foreign Diplomatic Missions in Belarus]</ref>
* {{flag|Bolivia}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gov.bo/webmre/documentos/Servicios/d48.htm Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Culture (Bolivia)]</ref>
* {{flag|Botswana}}<ref>[http://www.mofaic.gov.bw/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=207&Itemid=193 Ministry Of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation - Botswana]</ref>
* {{flag|Brunei Darussalam}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.bn/overseas_missions/20070804a.htm Ministry of Foreign Affairs & Trade - Brunei Darussalam]</ref>
* {{flag|Bulgaria}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=BulgRec>[http://www.mfa.bg/bg/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14329&Itemid=382 Bulgarian Ministry of Foreign Affairs], ''Diplomatic Relations - Macedonia.'' Retrieved on 2007-01-25</ref>
* {{flag|Cambodia}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Cambodia | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Cambodia/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Cambodia established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name on 2nd October 1996 }}</ref>
* {{flag|Canada}} (NATO and G8 member) <ref name=CanadianMFA>Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada, ''[http://geo.international.gc.ca/cip-pic/geo/macedonia-en.aspx Country and Regional Information: Macedonia]'', Retrieved on 2007-09-20</ref><ref name=A1News>(Macedonian) A1 News, ''[http://a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=84094 Канада ја призна Македонија под уставното име]'', Retrieved on 2007-09-20</ref>
* {{flag|Chile}}<ref name="Chile = 124th">{{cite web|url=http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1026|title=Macedonia establishes diplomatic relations with Chile under constitutional name|date=2008-09-18|publisher=Government of the Republic of Macedonia|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref><ref>[http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=24202 Foreign Ministry Special Representative tours Latin American countries to brief local governments on the FYROM name issue]</ref>
* {{flag|Costa Rica}}<ref>[http://www.rree.go.cr/promocion/index.php?stp=133 Costa Rican Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Cuba}}<ref>[http://europa.cubaminrex.cu/Actualidad/Breves%20Diplomaticas/2007/Marzo.htm#47 Cuban Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Czech Republic}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=CzechMFA>[http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/mzv/default.asp?id=59730&ido=7904&idj=2&amb=1 Consular department of the Embassy of the Czech Republic in Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Ecuador}}<ref>[http://www.mmrree.gov.ec/mre/documentos/pol_internacional/bilateral/europa_macedonia.htm]</ref>
* {{flag|El Salvador}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gob.sv/sitio/sitiowebrree.nsf/pages/spolext_paisesconrelacionesdiplomaticas Ministry of Foreign Affairs of El Salvador]</ref>
* {{flag|Estonia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=EstonianMFA>[http://www.vm.ee/eng/kat_176/8678.html Estonian government website], Retrieved on 2008-09-13; [http://vlepingud.vm.ee/en/contract_view/2051 Bilateral agreements]</ref>
* {{flag|Honduras}}<ref>[http://www.sre.hn/tramitessj_paises.html]</ref>
* {{flag|Hungary}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.mfa.gov.hu/kulkepviselet/MK/HU | title=Embassy of the Republic of Hungary |work=Skopje Republic of Macedonia | accessdate= 2007-01-20}}</ref><ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59875204&lId=2&pmId=501 Hungary strongly supports Macedonia on name, visa liberalization issues]</ref>
* {{flag|Iceland}} (NATO member)<ref>[http://www.utanrikisraduneyti.is/sendi-og-raedisskrifstofur/erlendar/ Ministry for Foreign Affairs - Iceland]</ref>
* {{flag|India}}<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58069371&lId=2&pmId=501 India uses constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia in bilateral communication]</ref>
* {{flag|Iran}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ir/cms/cms/Tehran/en/Mission/Europe.html Ministry of foreign affairs of Iran]</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = President's meeting with the new ambassadors of Iran, Malaysia, Afghanistan and Iceland | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?InfoID=318&SectionID=10 web site of the President of Macedonia| quote = Iran is among the most influential countries in the region of the Near East, and a country that established diplomatic relations with the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Ireland}} (EU member)<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Ireland | url = http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Europe/Relationships+with+EU+Member+States/Ireland/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Ireland recently decided to use FYROMs constitutional name exclusively for bilateral relations }}</ref>
* {{flag|Kazakhstan}}<ref>[http://portal.mfa.kz/portal/page/portal/mfa/en/content/news/nws2006/2006-09-23 Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Kazakhstan]</ref>
* {{flag|Kuwait}}<ref>{{cite web | title = President Branko Crvenkovski received the letters of credence from the new Ambassadors of Kuwait, Estonia and Portugal | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=2&InfoID=922 President of the Republic of Macedonia web site | quote = Kuwait was among the first countries from the Gulf to have established diplomatic relations with the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Kyrgyzstan}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.kg/diplomatic-missions-in-kr/dip-in-kr-3_kg.html Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Kyrgyz Republic]</ref>
* {{flag|Laos}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Laos | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Laos/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Laos established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name on 6 March 1996 }}</ref>
* {{flag|Liechtenstein}}<ref>[http://www.liechtenstein.li/en/pdf-fl-staat-aussenpolitik-multilateral-dipl-vertretungen.pdf Diplomatic Missions to the Principality of Liechtenstein]</ref>
*{{flag|Lithuania}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name="veremis"/><ref>[http://www.urm.lt/index.php?679327484 Bilateral treaties], [http://www.urm.lt/popup2.php?tmpl_name=m_urm_lt_embassy&m_urm_country_id=59 Diplomatic mission],[http://www.urm.lt/popup2.php?tmpl_name=m_urm_for_embassy&m_urm_country_id=70 Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia] (accessed 3 October 2008)</ref>
* {{flag|Malaysia}}<ref>[http://www.kln.gov.my/?m_id=1&c_id=72&s_id=43 Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Malaysia]</ref><ref>[http://www.kln.gov.my/perwakilan/bucharest/news/1190 Embassy of Malaysia, Bucharest]</ref>
* {{flag|Maldives}}<ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.mv/v2/menu.php?menu=3&submenu=Bilateral%20Relations Republic of Maldives - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Moldova}} <ref name=MoldRec>[http://www.stabilitypact.org/trade/fta-mou/mol-mac.pdf Free Trade Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Moldova and the Government of the Republic of Macedonia], ''Stability Pact for Southeast Europe'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Mongolia}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.mn/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=85&lang=en Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Mongolia]</ref>
* {{flag|Morocco}} <ref name=MFA-Morocco>[http://www.maec.gov.ma/fr/fiche.asp?num=3720 Exchange of letters concerning the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries] Moroccan Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Retrieved on 2008-10-01</ref>
* {{flag|Myanmar}} (Burma)<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Burma | url = http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Burma/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Burma has established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Nauru}}<ref>[http://www.un.int/nauru/foreignaffairs.html Department of Foreign Affairs - Republic of Nauru]</ref>
* {{flag|Nepal}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.np/diplomaticaz.php Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Nepal]</ref>
* {{flag|Nigeria}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ng/newsitem34.html Ministry of foreign affairs of Nigeria]</ref>
* {{flag|Oman}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.om/mofa/bilateral_continent.asp?cont=6 Sultanate of Oman - Ministry of Foreign Affairs using 'republic of macedonia']</ref>
* {{flag|Paraguay}} <ref name=DW>[http://www.deutsche-welle.de/dw/article/0,2144,2858800,00.html Deutsche Welle], Retrieved on 2008-09-22</ref>
* {{flag|Poland}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.msz.gov.pl/Polish,Missions,Abroad,2143.html?PHPSESSID=fe037956eab58817a34e2f3280fc37ff Polish Missions Abroad]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-12</ref><ref>Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.msz.gov.pl/M-S,2147.html?PHPSESSID=fe037956eab58817a34e2f3280fc37ff Foreign Embassies in Poland]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58537761&lId=2&pmId=501 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Qatar}}<ref>[http://english.mofa.gov.qa/details_consul.cfm?Id=394&type=local Embassy of Republic of Macedonia in The state of Qatar]</ref>
* {{flag|Romania}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=FMoR>[http://www.mae.ro/index.php?unde=doc&id=158&idlnk=5&cat=6 Romanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, The Romanian Missions], Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref><ref>[http://www.mae.ro/index.php?unde=doc&id=1170&idlnk=5&cat=6 Romanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Foreign Missions], Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref><ref>[http://skopje.mae.ro/index.php?lang=ro&id=14871 Romanian Embassy in the Republic of Macedonia] Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref>
* {{flag|Saint Kitts and Nevis}}<ref>[http://gip.gov.kn/ct.asp?xItem=237&ctNode=215&mp=6 St. Christopher (St. Kitts) and Nevis, Ministry of F. Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Saint Lucia}}<ref>[http://www.stlucia.gov.lc/faq/do_i_need_a_visa_to_enter_saint_lucia.htm#Require_Visas List of countries which need visa]</ref>
* {{flag|Saudi Arabia}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=4173&InNewsItemID=36770 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref><ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=3985&InNewsItemID=70063 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Singapore}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Singapore | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Singapore/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 8 May 1995 Singapore established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Slovakia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>[http://www.mfa.sk/zu/index/podstranka.php?id=1401 Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Slovak Republic - Bilateral Relations - Republic of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Sovereign Military Order of Malta}}<ref>[http://www.orderofmalta.org/site/attdiplomatica.asp?idlingua=5 Order of Malta - Bilateral relations with countries]</ref>
* {{flag|Sri Lanka}}<ref>[http://www.slmfa.gov.lk//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=1 Sri Lanka Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Sweden}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/5616#M Government Offices of Sweden - Embassies and consulates]</ref>
* {{flag|Switzerland}}<ref>[http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/reps/eur/vmkd/embsko.html Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Switzerland]</ref>
* {{flag|Thailand}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Thailand | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Thailand/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 23 January 2005 Thailand established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Turkey}} (NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title=NATO Update - Week of 9-15 June 1999 | accessdate=2007-09-18 | url= http://www.nato.int/docu/update/1999/0609e.htm}}</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.tr/turkey_s-political-relations-with-republic-of-macedonia.en.mfa Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Ukraine}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/ua/publication/content/1779.htm Ambassador of the Republic of Macedonia to Ukraine]</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1455 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Uzbekistan}}<ref>[http://mfa.uz/eng/inter_cooper/uzbekistan_countries/countries_eu/uzb_macedonia/ Relations between Uzbekistan and Macedonia - Ministry o. F. Affairs of the Republic of Uzbekistan]</ref>
* {{flag|Vietnam}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.vn/en/cn_vakv/euro/nr040819111555/ns070919140054 Vietnam-Macedonia relations] Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Vietnam | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Vietnam/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 10 June 1994, Vietnam established diplomatic links with FYROM under its constitutional name}}</ref>

{{ColBreak}}

====List of countries/entities using "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes====
* {{flag|Australia}} <ref name=AUmfa>Australian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.dfat.gov.au/missions/countries/mk.html Australian Consulate in Skopje, Macedonia, Former Yugoslav Republic of]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Bahrain}}<ref name="Bahrain MFA">{{cite web|url=http://www.mofa.gov.bh/MOFA/En/DeplomaticMission/InternationalRelations6.htm|title=International Relations|publisher=Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Kingdom of Bahrain|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
* {{flag|Belize}}<ref name="Belize MFA">{{cite web|url=http://mfa.gov.bz/library/bze_treaties/bi_lateral.php|title=Index of Belize's Treaties|publisher=Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Belize|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
* {{flag|Belgium}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=BMFA>Federal Public Service: Foreign Affairs: [http://www.diplomatie.be/en/addresses/abroad/otherpostsdetail.asp?POSTE_ID=404 MACEDOINE (EX-REP. YOUGOSLAVE DE)], Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Cyprus}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.cy/mfa/embassies/embassy_doha.nsf/DMLfaq_en/DMLfaq_en?OpenDocument Embassy of the Republic of Cyprus in Doha - Visa Applications]2008-04-15</ref>
* {{flag|France}} (EU, NATO, G8 and permanent UN Security Council member)<ref>Base Pacte - Archives of the French Republic,''[http://www.doc.diplomatie.gouv.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/DDD/19930261.pdf Agreement by exchange of letters establishing diplomatic relations between the Government of the French Republic and the Government of the Republic of Macedonia]'', Retrieved on 2008-04-04</ref><ref> French Ministry of Foreign Affairs, france-ancienne-republique-yougoslave-macedoine page</ref><ref>''[http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/pays-zones-geo_833/macedoine-arym_442/france-ancienne-republique-yougoslave-macedoine_1177/relations-politiques_4744/relations-politiques_12153.html]''</ref>
* {{flag|Germany}} (EU, NATO and G8 member) <ref name=GermanMFA>German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, {{de icon}} ''[http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/de/Laenderinformationen/01-Laender/Mazedonien.html Ehemalige jugoslawische Republik Mazedonien]'', Retrieved on 2008-04-15</ref>
* {{flag|Greece}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=GrFA> {{cite web | url= http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/FYROM+-+THE+NAME+ISSUE.htm|title=Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=17 July 2006 | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) — The Name Issue | publisher= | pages= | language=English }}</ref>
* {{flag|Italy}} (EU, NATO and G8 member) <ref name=ItFA> {{cite web | url= http://www.esteri.it/MAE/Templates/SediTemplate.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b90144702-199C-47DD-8FA5-97139E541E48%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMAE%2fEN%2fMinistero%2fRappresentanze%2f&NRCACHEHINT=Guest | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=29 April 2009 | work=Ex Repubblica Jugoslavia Di Macedonia(FYROM) — Embassies and Consulates | publisher= | pages= | language=English<//ref>
* {{flag|Latvia}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=LatvianMFA>[http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/policy/bilateral-relations/4542/Macedonia/ Relations Between Latvia and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|Luxembourg}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=LuxembourgMFA>[http://www.mae.lu/images/biblio/biblio-42-1_vcxuu_660_3156_265.pdf Missions diplomatiques étrangères accréditées au Luxembourg], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Mexico}}<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.sre.gob.mx/csocial/contenido/comunicados/2008/oct/cp_298.html|title=Encuentro entre el Subsecretario Juan Manuel Gómez Robledo y el Sr. Yannis Valinakis, Viceministro de Asuntos Exteriores de Grecia|date=2008-10-17|publisher=México - Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores|language=[[Spanish language|Spanish]]|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref> (Mexico withdrew recognition of constitutional name Oct 2008)<ref name=MexicoWithdraw>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14140/ Mexico withdraws recognition of constitutional name], Retrieved on 2008-10-22</ref>
* {{flag|Micronesia}} <ref name=MicroMFA>[http://www.fsmgov.org/diprel.html Countries With Which the Federated States of Micronesia Has Established Diplomatic Relations], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Monaco}}<ref name=MonacoMFA>[http://www.diplomatie.gouv.mc/315Diplomatie/wwwnew.nsf/1909$/afaad54691d027abc125746a004c1e8agb?OpenDocument&2Gb Macédoine], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|New Zealand}}<ref name="New Zealand">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/New+Zealand/|title=New Zealand|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|quote=...regarding the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia it recognizes Skopje under the name accepted in recent years by the United Nations.|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
*{{flag|South Africa}} <ref name=DSA>Department of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.dfa.gov.za/foreign/bilateral/fyrom.html FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)]'', Retrieved on 2008-02-15</ref>
* {{flag|Spain}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=SpanishMFA>Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, {{es icon}} ''[http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/ArbolPaises/Macedonia_Falsa/Informacion%20Relacionada/Paginas/relacMacedonia.aspx Ex-República Yugoslava De Macedonia (ERYM)]'', Retrieved on 2007-07-24, [http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/ArbolPaises/ARYMacedonia/Recomendaciones%20de%20viaje/Paginas/recoMacedonia.aspx Antigua-República Yugoslava de Macedonia (ARYM)], Retrieved on 2008-07-24, also uses "A.R.Y. Macedonia"[http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/Paginas/informacion_representaciones.aspx].</ref>
* {{flagicon|Vatican City}} The [[Holy See]] <ref name=HolySee>[http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_20010123_holy-see-relations_en.html Bilateral and multilateral relations of the Holy See]</ref>

====List of countries/entities to be sorted====
* {{flag|Albania}} (NATO member) <ref name=AlbFC>The Albanian Foreign Service,>''[http://www.km.gov.al/index.php?fq=brenda&r=&gj=gj2&kid=26 Embassy of the Republic of Albania in F.Y.R.O.M]'', Retrieved on 2008-07-25</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=125105&NrIssue=767&NrSection=20 Makfax - Internet Daily Newspaper]</ref><ref>"[http://www.km.gov.al/index.php?fq=brenda&m=news&lid=9240 Premier Berisha receives Deputy Premier of Macedonia, Abdilaqim Ademi]"</ref>
* {{flag|Brazil}} <ref name=BrazilianMFA>[http://www.brazil-bg.info/consulate.html Embassy of Brazil in Bulgaria], Retrieved on 2008-09-14</ref><ref>[http://www.abe.mre.gov.br/mundo/america-do-norte/estados-unidos-da-america/chicago/servicos/visas/countries-that-require-visa-to-brazil/ Countries That Require Visa to Brazil], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
*{{flag|Democratic Republic of the Congo}}<ref name="congo">According to Greek sources, Congo announced on 18 October 2008 that it would use the term ''Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'' ({{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/201008_H2015.htm|title=Announcement regarding attempts by FYROM's Foreign Ministry to disseminate misinformation regarding Panama, Mexico and Congo’s stance on the name issue|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-21}}). Macedonian sources denied the statement, citing a Congolese statement that Congo's position had remained unchanged ({{cite web|url=http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14279/|title=Congo: the Latest in Macedonia Name Row|publisher=Balkaninsight|accessdate=2008-10-24}}, {{cite web|url=http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58101452&lId=2&pmId=501|title=DR Congo doesn’t change position on using Macedonia’s constitutional name|publisher=MIA|accessdate=2008-10-24}}), {{cite web|url=http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/4116/1/|title=Greek Government caught lying to their public, again|publisher=MINA|accessdate=2008-10-24}})</ref>
* {{flag|Czech Republic}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=CzechMFA>[http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/mzv/default.asp?id=59730&ido=7904&idj=2&amb=1 Consular department of the Embassy of the Czech Republic in Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Denmark}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=DanishMFA>[http://www.um.dk/en/servicemenu/contact/missionsabroad/missionsabroadm.htm MISSIONS ABROAD], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref> <ref name=DanishMFA1>[http://www.um.dk/en/menu/developmentpolicy/danishdevelopmentpolicycountries/theneighbourhoodprogramme/countries/macedoniafyrom DANISH ASSISTANCE TO MACEDONIA (FYROM) UNDER THE NEIGHBOURHOOD PROGRAMME OF THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF DENMARK], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Dominican Republic}}<ref name=DominicanMFA>"[http://www.serex.gov.do/AsuntosConsulares/AsuntosConsulares/visas.htm?mid=9060 LISTADO DE PAISES Y SU CONDICION DE ENTRADA A LA REPUBLICA DOMINICANA]", Retrieved on 2008-09-18 </ref><ref name=DominicanMFA2>[http://www.serex.gov.do/serex%20informa/SerexNo.08.pdf "Serex"], Retrieved on 2008-09-18 </ref>
*{{flag|Egypt}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.eg/MFA_Portal/Templates/Alpha_Search_Plus_Results.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b93D47EB3-6273-4215-B383-824EAE08F119%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMFA_Portal%2fen-GB%2fMissions%2fForeign_Missions_in_Egypt%2f&NRCACHEHINT=Guest Foreign Missions in Egypt (English)]2008-09-26</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.eg/MFA_Portal/Templates/Alpha_Search_Plus_Results.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID={9FDED96F-947B-4B89-B9BD-C30094153629}&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMFA_Portal%2ffr-FR%2fMissions%2fForeign_Missions_in_Egypt%2fDefault.htm&NRCACHEHINT=Guest Foreign Missions in Egypt (French)]</ref>
* {{flag|Finland}} (EU member)<ref name="Ministry for Foreign Affairs of Finland">[http://formin.finland.fi/public/default.aspx?nodeid=17382&culture=en-US&contentlan=2 Macedonia], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|Guatemala}}<ref>[http://www.minex.gob.gt/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2053&Itemid=132 Guatemalan Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref><ref>"[http://www.minex.gob.gt/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1517&Itemid=105 Macedonia, Embajada de la Antigua Républica Yugoslava de]"</ref>
* {{flag|Indonesia}}<ref>[http://www.deplu.go.id/?hotnews_id=1431 Department of Foreign Affairs - Indonesia]</ref><ref>[http://www.deplu.go.id/?category_id=13&country_id=105&bilateral=eropatimur Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref><ref>[http://www.indonesia.hu/ Embassy of Indonesia in Hungary]</ref>
* {{flag|Japan}} (G8 member)<ref>[http://www.mofa.go.jp/about/emb_cons/protocol/i-p.html List of Embassies and Consulates-General in Japan], 2008-09-15</ref><ref>[http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/macedonia/index.html Japan-Macedonia Relations], Retrieved on 2008-09-15</ref>
* {{flag|Lesotho}}<ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.ls/missions/show_missions.php?Country=Italy LESOTHO MISSIONS ABROAD], 2008-09-16</ref><ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.ls/services/default.php CONSULAR SERVICES], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Netherlands}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=NLFA>Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, [http://www.mfa.nl/en/europe?continent=europe Missions Abroad], Retrieved on 2007-12-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.nl/sko Embassy of the Netherlands in Skopje]</ref><ref>[http://www.minbuza.nl/nl/ontwikkelingssamenwerking/wereldkaart/landenAZ,Macedonie.html Country profile- Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Norway}} (NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title = PM Gruevski: Name negotiations resume despite Macedonia’s lawsuit against Greece| url = http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1733 Macedonian Government web site | quote = Norway, which has not recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, will however always use it in the bilateral relations }}</ref>
* {{flag|Panama}}<ref name="Athens refutes Skopje">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/201008_H2015.htm|title=Announcement regarding attempts by FYROM's Foreign Ministry to disseminate misinformation regarding Panama, Mexico and Congo’s stance on the name issue|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref><ref name="Skopje refutes Athens">{{cite web|url=http://mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=318&id=469|title=REACTION TO THE GREEK SPECULATIONS REGARDING THE USE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL NAME OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA BY THIRD COUNTRIES|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref>
* {{flag|Peru}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/boletinInf.nsf/afdaa58f9a4dc40605256e160070d8a9/9aeab09b21d6ad910525735c0070e1b5?OpenDocument]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/aconsular.nsf/0/9F10D80FD06FFF0405256E38005537D3?OpenDocument]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/Pbilateral.nsf/9DAA604E1B36B559052574790061BE01/$FILE/MACEDONIA.pdf]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/Tratados.nsf/6e698a2aa7c4dd6805256e680056dec7/1eb8ad5549e7d00b052571cc00532453?OpenDocument Visa Agreement between the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and Peru]</ref>
* {{flag|Portugal}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=Portugal>http://www.portugal.gov.pt/portal/pt/directorio/europa Conselho da Europa - Antiga República Jugoslava da Macedónia]</ref><ref>[http://antigo.mdn.gov.pt/Defesa/Operacoes/macedonia.htm]</ref><ref>[http://srec.azores.gov.pt/dre/alunos/Basico_DEPEB/ProgramasEspecificos/Prog%20Cidadania%20e%20Mundo%20Actual.pdf]</ref>

====List of countries/entities that do not use either appellation consistently====
The following states have inconsistent official references to the country, using both names:
* {{flag|Israel}} <ref name=IsraeliMFA>Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Sherut/IsraeliAbroad/Continents/Europe/ Europe], Retrieved on 2007-12-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Treaties/Israel+Bilateral+agreements/ Bilateral agreements]</ref><ref>[http://mexico-city.mfa.gov.il/mfm/Web/main/document.asp?documentid=109765 Ambassador accredited to Macedonia]</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Sherut/IsraeliAbroad/Continents/Europe/FYROM/]</ref>

The following countries/entities have no diplomatic relations with the state<ref>[http://mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=310 List of countries with which Republic of Macedonia have bilateral relations]</ref>: [[Andorra]], [[Bahamas]], [[Bangladesh]], [[Barbados]], [[Bhutan]], [[Botswana]], [[Fiji]], [[Georgia (country)|Georgia]], [[Grenada]], [[Guyana]], [[Kiribati]], [[Lebanon]], [[Liberia]], [[Mali]], [[Malta]], [[Namibia]], [[Palau]], [[Palestinian Authority]], [[Papua New Guinea]], [[Philippines]],
[[Republic of China]] ([[Taiwan]]), [[Sahrawi Republic]], [[Saint Kitts and Nevis]], [[San Marino]], [[Solomon Islands]], [[South Korea]], [[Syria]], [[Tonga]], [[Trinidad and Tobago]], [[Tunisia]], [[Tuvalu]] and [[Zimbabwe]].
{{EndMultiCol}}

====List of international organisations====

The following international organisations use the reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (or a variant thereof) in their official proceedings:

*[[United Nations]],<ref name=un>{{cite web| url=http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm | title=United Nations | work=Admission of the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations | dateformat = mdy| accessdate=17 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[European Union]],<ref name= eu>{{cite web | url= http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/the_former_yugoslav_republic_of_macedonia/index_en.htm | title= European Union | work= European Commission, Enlargement, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | dateformat = mdy |accessdate=September, 5 2006}}</ref>
*[[NATO]],<ref name=NATO>{{cite web | url= http://www.nato.int/issues/enlargement/index.html | title=NATO |work=Enlargement |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[International Monetary Fund]],<ref name=IMF>{{cite web | url= http://www.imf.org/external/country/MKD/index.htm| title= International Monetary Fund |work=former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and the IMF |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[World Trade Organization]],<ref name=WTO>{{cite web| url=http://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/macedonia_e.htm | title= World Trade Organization | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) and the WTO |dateformat = mdy | accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[International Olympic Committee]],<ref name=IOC>{{cite web | title=International Olympic Committee |work=Olympic Committee of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | url= http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisation/noc/noc_uk.asp?noc_initials=MKD|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[World Bank]],<ref name=WB>{{cite web | title=World Bank | work= Countries & Regions | url= http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/0,,pagePK:180619~theSitePK:136917,00.html|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[European Bank for Reconstruction and Development]],<ref name=EBRD>{{cite web| title=European Bank for Reconstruction and Development | work=ebrd and fyr Macedonia | url= http://www.ebrd.com/country/country/mace/index.htm EBRD |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe]],<ref name=OSCE>{{cite web | title=The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe |work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia admitted to OSCE | url= http://www.osce.org/item/16032.html|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[FIFA]],<ref name=fifa>{{cite web |url= http://www.fifa.com/en/organisation/confederations/associationdetails/0,1483,MKD,00.html?countrycode=MKD| title=FIFA Organisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[UEFA]].<ref name=uefa>{{cite web |url= http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/countries/association=59205| title=UEFAOrganisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[FIBA]].<ref name=fiba>{{cite web |url= http://www.fibaeurope.com/Default.asp?nfID=2604| title=FIBA Organisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>

==Greek position==
The constitutional name of the country "Republic of Macedonia" and the short name "Macedonia" when referring to the country, can be considered offensive by most [[Greeks]], especially inhabitants of the [[provinces of Greece|Greek province]] of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]. The Greek government officially uses the term "Slavomacedonian" to describe both the language and a member of the ethnic group, and the [[United Nations]]' provisional reference for the country (''"the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"'') by the main international organisations, including the [[United Nations]].<ref name=un>{{cite web| url=http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm | title=United Nations | work=Admission of the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations | dateformat = mdy| accessdate=17 July 2006}}</ref> The official reasons for this, as described by the [[Foreign relations of Greece|Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs]], are:

{{quotation|
"The choice of the name Macedonia by FYROM directly raises the issue of usurpation of the cultural heritage of a neighbouring country. The name constitutes the basis for staking an exclusive rights claim over the entire geographical area of Macedonia. More specifically, to call only the Slavo-Macedonians Macedonians monopolizes the name for the Slavo-Macedonians and creates semiological confusion, whilst violating the human rights and the right to self-determination of Greek Macedonians. The use of the name by FYROM alone may also create problems in the trade area, and subsequently become a potential springboard for distorting reality, and a basis for activities far removed from the standards set by the European Union and more specifically the clause on good neighbourly relations. The best example of this is to be seen in the content of school textbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia."<ref name=GrFA />
}}

The current leader of the major opposition party, [[PASOK]], [[George Papandreou, junior|George Papandreou]] has stated that "in January 2002, when he was [[Minister for Foreign Affairs (Greece)|Minister for Foreign Affairs]], was next to a deal with Skopje leadership about using the name "Горна Македонија" ("Gorna Makedonija" - "Upper Macedonia" in Slavic). The other parties and the [[List of Presidents of Greece|President]] of the Republic, he said, were informed but the solution process didn't work, because the [[2001 Macedonia conflict|Tetovo crisis]] broke out."<ref name= Gorna>{{el icon}} {{cite web| title=Eleftherotypia |work=George's "No" to Nimitz proposals | url= http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=13.04.2005,id=42766704 |accessdate= 2007-06-25}}</ref>

The Greek concerns can be analyzed as follows:

===Historical concerns===
{| class="infobox bordered" style="width: 250px; font-size: 90%; float: right;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"
|[[Image:Macedon431bcpriortoExpansions.png|244px]]
|[[Image:LocationMacedonia-HEL-1-z.png|244px]]
|-
|Ancient [[Macedon]] before expansion into Thracian and Illyrian territories.
|Modern [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] in Greece.
|-
|colspan="2" align="center" |[[Image:Macedonia and the Aegean World c.200.png|244px]]
|-
|colspan="2" align="center" | Kingdom of Macedon under Philip V.
|}

Greeks argue that the name Macedonia is historically inseparably associated with Greek culture, ever since the ancient kingdom of [[Macedon]] and the [[ancient Macedonians]]. They therefore consider that only Greeks have a historical right to use the name today, since the modern southern [[Slavs]] arrived 1,000 years after that kingdom, lacking any relation to Macedon or its Greek culture.<ref name=GrFA> {{cite web | url= http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/FYROM+-+THE+NAME+ISSUE.htm|title=Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=17 July 2006 | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) — The Name Issue | publisher= | pages= | language=English }}</ref>. Efforts by ethnic Macedonians to construct a narrative of ethnic continuity linking them to the ancient Macedonians in various ways<ref name="mkukemb">{{cite web| url= http://www.macedonianembassy.org.uk/history.html | title= Official site of the Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia in London | work= An outline of Macedonian history from Ancient times to 1991 | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=19 October 2006 }}</ref> and symbolic actions underlining such claims, such as the public use of the [[Vergina sun]] symbol as a flag of the Republic of Macedonia, or the renaming of [[Skopje Airport]] to "Alexander the Great Airport"<ref>{{cite web| title=Kathimerini |work=A stir over name of Skopje’s airport | url= http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100006_29/12/2006_78322 |accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref> meet strong criticism from the Greek side, much of the international media that report on the issue, and even from moderate political views in the Republic of Macedonia itself.<ref>[[Kiro Gligorov]], first president of the Republic of Macedonia: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century[...]we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians". (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, 26 February 1992, p. 35) - "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia[...]Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)". (Toronto Star, 15 March 1992</ref><ref>Gyordan Veselinov, diplomat of the Republic of Macedonia: "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian[...]There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country". (Ottawa Citizen, 24 February 1999)</ref><ref>Denko Maleski, foreign minister of the Republic of Macedonia from 1991 to 1993, and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997: "The idea that [[Alexander the Great]] belong to us, was at the mind of some outsider political groups only! These groups were insignificant the first years of our independence but the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimate themselves through their history. In Balkans, if you want to be recognised as a nation, you need to have history of 3000 years old. So since you made us to invent a history, we invent it! [...] You forced us to the arms of the extreme nationalists who today claim that we are direct descendants of Alexander the Great!" (In an interview for Greek TV channel [[Mega Channel|Mega]], November 2006)</ref>.

Some Greek historians emphasise the late emergence of a "Macedonian" nation, often pointing to 1944 as the date of its "artificial" creation under [[Josip Broz Tito]], discounting earlier roots in the 19th and early 20th century<ref>[[Loring Danforth]], ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'', [http://www.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0691043566&id=ZmesOn_HhfEC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&ots=Eb0bBzHBQT&dq=macedonism&sig=LO82EJ_vsHIAzByUF4dUWNNRjd4#PPA56,M1 p. 56]</ref>.

The Greek view also stresses that the name Macedonia as a geographical term historically used to refer typically to the southern, Greek parts of the region, and not or only marginally to the territory of today's Republic. They also note that the territory was not called Macedonia as a political entity until 1944.

{{clear}}

===Territorial concerns===
[[Image:Ethnicmacedonia.jpg|thumb|250px|The region of Macedonia as perceived by ethnic Macedonian irredentists. Some ethnic Macedonian nationalists, including at official level have expressed irredentist claims to what they refer to as "Aegean Macedonia" (Greece), "Pirin Macedonia" ([[Bulgaria]]), "Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo" ([[Albania]]), and "Gora and Prohor Pchinski" ([[Serbia]]) despite the fact that ethnic [[Greeks]], [[Bulgarians]], [[Albanians]] and [[Serbs]] form the majority of the population of each region respectively. These fringe groups have received no official encouragement from the government of the Republic of Macedonia since 1995 when they agreed to remove all territorial claims to neighbouring countries' territories from their constitution, but the United Macedonia concept is still found among official sources in the Republic, and taught in schools through school textbooks and through other governmental publications.]]

{{main|United Macedonia|Aegean Macedonia}}

During the [[Greek Civil War]], in 1947 the Greek Ministry of Press and Information published a book, Ἡ ἐναντίον τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἐπιβουλή (''Designs on Greece''), namely of documents and speeches on the ongoing Macedonian issue, many translations from Yugoslav officials. It reports [[Josip Broz Tito]] using the term "[[Aegean Macedonia]]" on 11 October 1945 in the build up to the Greek Civil War; the original document is archived in ‘GFM A/24581/G2/1945’. For Athens in 1947, the “new term, Aegean Macedonia”, (also “Pirin Macedonia”), was introduced by Yugoslavs. Contextually, this observation indicates this was part of the Yugoslav offensive against Greece, laying claim to Greek Macedonia, but Athens does not seem to take issue with the term itself. The 1945 date concurs with Bulgarian sources.

Tito's wartime representative to Macedonia, General Tempo (Svetozar Vukmanovic), is credited with promoting the usage of the new regional names of the Macedonian region for irredentist purposes. Concerns over territorial implications of the usage of the term "Macedonian" were expressed as early as 1944 by US diplomats.<ref>U.S STATE DEPARTMENT, Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/ 26 December 1944)</ref>

Greece suspects that the Republic of Macedonia has [[United Macedonia|territorial ambitions]] in the northern [[Macedonia (Greece)|Greek provinces of Macedonia]]. This has been a Greek concern for decades; as far back as 1957, the Greek government expressed concern about reported Yugoslav ambitions to create an "independent" People's Republic of Macedonia with the Greek city of [[Thessaloniki]] as its capital.<ref name=Times>Greek Macedonia "not a problem", ''The Times'' (London), 5 August 1957</ref>

[[Loring Danforth|Loring M. Danforth]] ascribes the goal of a "free, united, and independent Macedonia" including "liberated" Bulgarian and Greek territory to a fraction of extreme Macedonian nationalists, whereas more moderate ethnic Macedonians recognise the inviolability of the borders but regard the presence of ethnic Macedonians in the neighbouring countries as an issue of minority protection.<ref name=Danforth>{{cite book| title=How can a woman give birth to one Greek and one Macedonian? | url= http://www.gate.net/~mango/How_can_a_woman_give_birth.htm | work=The construction of national identity among immigrants to Australia from Northern Greece | first=Loring M. | last= Danforth | accessdate= 2007-01-02 }}</ref>

Greek analysts<ref> Floudas, Demetrius Andreas; {{cite web |publisher= in: Kourvetaris et al (eds.), ''The New Balkans'', East European Monographs: Columbia University Press, 2002, p. 85 |url=http://www.intersticeconsulting.com/documents/FYROM.pdf | title= "Pardon? A Name for a Conflict? FYROM's Dispute with Greece Revisited”|format=PDF}} </ref> and politicians<ref name="dora_iht">Dora Bakoyannis, [http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/31/opinion/edbakoy.php Macedonia and NATO: The View From Athens], International Herald Tribune, 31 March 2008.</ref> have expressed concerns that western observers tend to overlook or not to understand the severity of the perceived territorial threat and tend to misunderstand the conflict as a trivial issue over just a name.

The concerns are further reinforced by the fact that extremist ethnic Macedonian [[nationalist]]s of the "[[United Macedonia]]" movement have expressed [[irredentist]] claims to what they refer to as "[[Greek Macedonia|Aegean Macedonia]]" (in Greece),<ref name=Times /><ref name="Patrides">Patrides, Greek Magazine of Toronto, September — October, 1988, p. 3.</ref><ref name="Currency">{{cite news| first=Marlise |last=Simons |title=As Republic Flexes, Greeks Tense Up |date=3 February 1992 |publisher=New York Times | url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE0DD103CF930A35751C0A964958260 }} </ref> ''"[[Pirin Macedonia]]"'' (in [[Bulgaria]]),<ref name="Bulgaria">{{cite web | last = Lenkova | first = M. | coauthors = Dimitras, P., Papanikolatos, N., Law, C. (eds) | title =Greek Helsinki Monitor: Macedonians of Bulgaria | work = Minorities in Southeast Europe | publisher =Greek Helsinki Monitor, Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe — Southeast Europe |year=1999 | url = http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF | format = pdf | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 24 July 2006}}</ref> "[[Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo]]" (in [[Albania]]),<ref name="Albania">{{cite web| url= http://www.florina.org/html/2003/2003_osce_albania.html | title=Rainbow — Vinozhito political party | work=The Macedonian minority in Albania | dateformat = mdy| accessdate= 22 July 2006}}</ref> and ''"[[Gora (region)|Gora]] and [[Prohor Pchinski]]"'' (in [[Serbia]]).<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.makedonija.info/info.html|title=Makedonija — General Information|dateformat = mdy|accessdate=22 July 2006}}</ref>

Greek Macedonians, Bulgarians, Albanians and Serbs form the overwhelming majority of the population of each part of the region respectively.

Schoolbooks and official government publications in the Republic have shown the country as part of an unliberated whole.<ref name=MkTimes>''The Macedonian Times'', semi-governmental monthly periodical, Issue number 23, July-August 1996:14, Leading article: Bishop Tsarknjas</ref><ref name=Booklets>''Facts About the Republic of Macedonia'' - annual booklets since 1992, Skopje, Republic of Macedonia Secretariat of Information, Second edition, 1997, ISBN 9989-42-044-0. p.14. 2 August 1944.</ref><ref name=MIA>[http://www.mia.com.mk MIA (Macedonian Information Agency)], ''[http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:bV_xiNmQMRYJ:205.217.154.67/world/macedonia+MACEDONIA+MARKS+30TH+ANNIVERSARY+OF+DIMITAR+MITREV'S+DEATH&hl=en&gl=gr&ct=clnk&cd=1&lr=lang_en Macedonia marks 30th anniversary of Dimitar Mitrev's death]'', Skopje, 24 February 2006</ref><ref name=UKMKemb>{{cite web| url= http://www.macedonianembassy.org.uk/history.html | title= Official site of the Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia in London | work= An outline of Macedonian history from Ancient times to 1991 | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=19 October 2006 }}</ref>
{{clear}}

===Self-determination===
[[Image:Apogevmatini Macedonians.gif|thumb|250px|right|[[Apogevmatini]] headline quoting Prime Minister [[Kostas Karamanlis]]: "I am a Macedonian, as are two and a half million Greeks."]]
{{seealso|Macedonians (Greek)|Greek Struggle for Macedonia|Demographic history of Macedonia}}

According to both the official Greek position<ref name=GrFA /> and various public manifestations in Greece<ref>Liotta, P. H. and Simons, A. ''[http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/parameters/98winter/liotta.htm Thicker than Water? Kin, Religion, and Conflict in the Balkans]'', from ''Parameters'', Winter 1998, pp. 11-27.</ref> and the [[Greek diaspora]],<ref name="theaustralianpeople">[[James Jupp|Jupp, J.]] ''The Australian People: An Encyclopedia of the Nation, Its People and Their Origins'', [[Cambridge University Press]], 1 October 2001. ISBN 0-521-80789-1, p. 147.</ref> the Greek Macedonians feel that their right to [[self-determination]] is violated by what they regard as the monopolisation of their name by a neighbouring country.

The strong regional identity of the Macedonians was emphasized by the [[List of Prime Ministers of Greece|Prime Minister of Greece]], [[Kostas Karamanlis]], who in January 2007 during a meeting of the [[Council of Europe]] in [[Strasbourg]] declared that:

{{quotation|
I myself am a Macedonian, and another two and a half million Greeks are Macedonians.<ref>[http://news.ert.gr/en/1/22936.asp ERT online] ''Stark message to Skopje'', 2007-01-24. Retrieved on 2007-01-25</ref>
}}

In Greece, the extreme position on the issue suggests that there must be "no Macedonia in the title" of a neighbouring country.<ref>{{cite web| url=http://www.e-grammes.gr/article.php?id=717 | title=Ελληνικές Γραμμές (Hellenic lines - official site of the LA.O.S. party) | work= Η Μακεδονία είναι μόνο Ελληνική (Macedonia is only Greek) | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 27 December 2006}}</ref>

Professor Danforth reports:

{{quotation|
From the Greek nationalist perspective, then, the use of the name "Macedonian" by the "Slavs of Skopje" constitutes a "felony", an "act of plagiarism" against the Greek people. By calling themselves "Macedonians" the Slavs are "stealing" a Greek name; they are "embezzling" Greek cultural heritage; they are "falsifying" Greek history. As Evangelos Kofos, a historian employed by the Greek Foreign Ministry told a foreign reporter, "It is as if a robber came into my house and stole my most precious jewels - my history, my culture, my identity".<ref name=Danforth />
}}

More moderate positions suggest that a disambiguating element should be added to the name of the neighbouring state and its people (notably Slav- or Vardar or New), so as to illustrate the distinction between not just the two, but all groups of self-identifying [[Macedonian]]s.<ref name=GrFA />

{{clear}}

===Semiological confusion===
{| class="infobox bordered" style="width: 345px; font-size: 95%; float: right;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"
| height=35px; colspan="2" border="0" style="color:#fff; background:#669; font-size:larger; font-weight: bold;" align="center" | <big>Demographic Macedonia</big>
|-
| [[Macedonians]]      c. 5 million || All inhabitants of the region, irrespective of ethnicity
|-
| [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|Macedonians]] c. 1.3 million plus diaspora<ref name= census-mk>{{cite web| url=http://www.stat.gov.mk/pdf/kniga_13.pdf | title= State Statistical Office of the Republic of Macedonia| work= 2002 census| language=English | format=pdf | pages=34 |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=21 July 2006}}</ref> || A contemporary ethnic group, also referred to as ''Slavomacedonians'' or ''Macedonian Slavs''<ref>{{cite web| title=MSN Encarta | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | url=http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555941/Macedonia_Former_Yugoslav_Republic_of.html#p6| dateformat = mdy|accessdate=9 September 2006}}</ref>
|-
| Macedonians c. 2.0 million<ref name= census-mk />|| Citizens of the [[Republic of Macedonia]] irrespective of ethnicity
|-
| [[Macedonians (Greek)|Macedonians]] c. 2.6 million plus diaspora<ref> {{el icon}} {{cite web| url= http://www.statistics.gr/gr_tables/S1101_SAP_01_TB_DC_01_02_Y.zip | title= General Secretariat of National Statistical Service of Greece | work= 2001 census | format = zip xls | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 21 July 2006}}</ref> || An ethnic [[Greeks|Greek]] regional group, also referred to as ''Greek Macedonians''.
|-
| [[Ancient Macedonians|Macedonians]] (unknown population) || A group of antiquity
|-
| Macedonians c. 0.3 million<ref> {{bg icon}} {{cite web| url=http://www.nsi.bg/Census/Ethnos.htm | title=National Statistical Institute (of Bulgaria) | work= 2001 census | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= August, 3 2006 }}</ref>|| A [[Bulgarians|Bulgarian]] regional group;<ref name=bcb>{{cite web| url=http://www.diversitybulgaria.org/en/materials.php?sub=36| title=British Council — Bulgaria | work= Macedonians of Bulgaria | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006}}</ref> also referred to as ''[[Pirin]]ers''.
|-
| [[Aromanians|Macedo-Romanians]] c. 0.3 million<ref name= Macedo-Romanians>{{cite web| url= http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=rup | title= Ethnologue | work= Report for Macedo-Romanian language | accessdate=August, 3 2006 | dateformat = mdy }} *The figure includes Aromanians in all countries.</ref>* || An alternative name for [[Aromanians]]
|}

{{main|Macedonia (terminology)}}
The contemporary [[Macedonia (region)|region of Macedonia]] is a wider region in the [[Balkan peninsula]] that spans across several modern states, mainly Greece (Greek [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]), Bulgaria ([[Blagoevgrad province]]), the Republic of Macedonia (formerly [[Vardar Macedonia]]), and [[Albania]] (around [[Lake Ohrid]]). The definite borders of the region are vague, but most contemporary geographers agree on its general location.<ref name= wilkinson>{{cite book | last = Wilkinson| first =H. R.| title = Maps and Politics; a review of the ethnographic cartography of Macedonia| url = http://worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/oclc/244268?tab=holdings| year = 1951| publisher = Liverpool University Press| location = Liverpool | id= {{LCC|DR701.M3|W5}} | pages = 1–4}}</ref> There are several ethnic groups in this region, mostly living within their respective states, all of which are technically [[Macedonians]] in the regional sense. The Republic itself, has a substantial minority (25.2%) of ethnic [[Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia|Albanians]] who are "Macedonians" both in the regional sense, and as legal citizens of the Republic.<ref name= census-mk /><ref name= mkconst>{{cite web| url=http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/mk00000_.html | title=International Constitutional Law | work= Macedonia — Constitution |dateformat = mdy | accessdate=20 July 2006 |language= English translation}}</ref>

The Greek position suggests that the ''monopolization'' of the name by the Republic and its citizens creates semiological confusion, as it becomes increasingly difficult to disambiguate which "Macedonia", which "Macedonians" and what "Macedonian language" are referred to in each occasion.

[[Bulgarians]] living in [[Blagoevgrad province]] ([[Bulgarian Macedonia]]) are reported to not identify themselves with their regional term "Macedonians", so as not to be confused with the [[ethnic Macedonians]].<ref name=bcb />

[[Macedo-Romanians]] ([[Aromanians]]) are often called "Machedoni" by Romanians, as opposed to the citizens of Macedonia, who are called "Macedoneni".

The Greek Macedonians demonstrate a strong regional identity and identify themselves as plain Macedonians, who live in plain [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]], speaking a [[Macedonian dialect]] of modern Greek.

==Ethnic Macedonian position==
===Self-determination and self-identification===
Skopje rejects many of Athens' objections due to what it sees as several errors in the Greek claims.

According to the government in Skopje, the preservation of the constitutional name both for domestic and international use is of utmost importance. The country asserts that it does not lay exclusive claim to the term ''Macedonia'' either in the geographic or the historic sense.<ref name="OfficialMk">''[http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=5&InfoID=1564 Annual address of the President of the Republic of Macedonia, Mr. Branko Crvenkovski in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia]'', on 2005-12-22, Retrieved on 2007-05-11.</ref> Various demonstrations and protests in the [[Republic of Macedonia]]<ref>{{cite web | title= Eurominority | work= Macedonians protest Concil of Europe decision on their Country's name | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.eurominority.org/version/fra/reports-detail.asp?id_actualite=558}}</ref> and the ethnic Macedonian diaspora, the [[ethnic Macedonians]] feel that their right to self-determination is violated by what they regard as the rejection of the name from the Greeks and their country. The Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences suggests:

{{Quotation|
And today Slavs have been living there (Macedonia) for a period of 1,400 years. What is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and continuously in Macedonia should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian"<ref>Council for Research into South-Eastern Europe of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Skopje, 1993 </ref>}}

It should be noted, however, that the Slavs inhabited Macedonia for more than a millennium before the name "Macedonians" was first used to distinguish a specific Slavic ethnic group by a small number of intellectuals towards the end of the nineteenth century.<ref>Danforth, L. (1995) ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'' p. 56-77 ISBN 0691043574 </ref>

===Historical perspective===

From a historical perspective, Macedonian Slav scholars blame Greece for claiming ownership over an ancient kingdom which, in their view, was not Greek, claiming historical studies propose there was a considerable degree of political and cultural distance between ancient Greeks and Macedonians. This view contrasts sharply with that of Greek authors, who point to historical data seen as evidence that ancient Macedonians identified as Greeks and spoke Greek. According to the Macedonian government, the ethnic Macedonian claim to continuity with ancient Macedonia is based on Macedonia's population having mixed with the Slavic newcomers after their arrival in the 6th and 7th century, but having retained the Macedonian name, and elements of their traditions and culture.<ref> http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=291</ref> Moreoever, the former use of the Vergina Sun by the Republic of Macedonia had intended to appeal to all ethnic groups in Macedonia, on the premise that the ancient Kingdom was itself ethnically mixed<ref>{{Cowan|p=125}}''Macedonia: the politics of identity and difference''.Pluto Press, 2000. ISBN 0745315895</ref>. The argument of legitimacy also extends to the view that much of southern (ie Greek) Macedonia was only fully Hellenized by political means in modern times. Slavic-speaking Macedonians can argue that they have a more legitimate claim to the name ''Macedonia'' to many Greek Macedonians, who are descendents of immigrants and refugees that were settled in Macedonia from regions such as Anatolia, Epirus and Thrace during the early twentieth century <ref>{{harvtxt|Cowan|p=5}}</ref>.

=== The ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece ===
{{main|Aegean Macedonians| Minorities in Greece#Slavic-speaking|ethnic Macedonians}}

[[Image:Hellenism in the Near East 1918.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Greek ethnographic map of south-eastern Balkans, showing the Macedonian Slavs as a separate people, by Professor George Soteriadis, Edward Stanford, London, 1918.]]

In the 6th and 7th centuries AD [[Slavic languages|Slavic]]-speaking populations came into northern Greece and the ethnic composition of the wider [[Macedonia (region)|Macedonia region]],<ref name="Britannica-Macedonia">Macedonia. (2006). In ''Encyclopædia Britannica''. Retrieved 16 June 2006, from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service: [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=4411]</ref> and Slavic languages have been spoken in the area alongside Greek in the region ever since. In parts of northern Greece, in the regions of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] (Μακεδονία) and [[Western Thrace|Thrace]] (Θράκη), Slavonic languages continue to be spoken by people with a wide range of self-identifications. The actual linguistic classification of these dialects is unclear, although most linguists will classify them as either [[Bulgarian language|Bulgarian]] or [[Macedonian language|Macedonian Slavic]] taking into account numerous factors, including the resemblance and mutual intelligibility of each dialect to the standard languages (''[[abstand]]''), and the self-identification of the speakers themselves. As however the vast majority of these people don't have a non-Greek national identity, linguists will make their decisions based on ''abstand'' alone. The Slavic-speaking minority of northern Greece can be divided in to two main groups: [[Christianity|Christians]] and [[Islam|Muslims]]. The latter has no reported connection to ethnic Macedonians.

The Christian portion of Greece's Slavic-speaking minority are commonly referred to as ''Slavophones'' (from the Greek Σλαβόφωνοι ''Slavophōnoi'' - lit. Slavic-speakers) or ''Dopii'', which means "locals" in Greek. The vast majority of them espouse a Greek national identity and are bilingual in Greek. They live mostly in the [[West Macedonia|Periphery of Western Macedonia]] and belong to the [[Church of Greece|Greek Orthodox Church]], which in conjunction with the [[Millet (Ottoman Empire)|''millet'']] system of the [[Ottoman Empire]] which occupied the region until 1913, may explain their self-identification as Greeks. In the 1951 census, 41,017 people claimed to speak the [[Slavic language (Greece)|Slavic language]]. One unofficial estimate for 2000 puts their number at 1.8% of the Greek population, that is c.200,000.<ref>''Encyclopedia Britannica'', [http://www.britannica.com/new-multimedia/pdf/wordat077.pdf World Data Greece]. Called "Macedonians" in this source.</ref>

This group has received some attention in recent years due to claims from the [[Republic of Macedonia]] that these people form an [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|''ethnic Macedonian'']] minority in Greece. Some organisations and academics have stated that there is a minority within the [[Minorities in Greece#Slavic-speaking|Slavophone community in Greece]] which self-identifies as [[ethnic Macedonian]].<ref name=GHM>{{cite web | url= http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/rainbow-english.pdf | title= Greek Helsinki Monitor | work= Greece against its Macedonian minority The "Rainbow" trial | accessdate= 2007-01-02|format=PDF}}</ref><ref>Hill, P. (1999) "Macedonians in Greece and Albania: A Comparative study of recent developments". ''Nationalities Papers'' Volume 27, Number 1, 1 March 1999, pp. 17-30(14)</ref><ref>{{cite web | title=Eurominority |work=Macedonians in Greece | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.eurominority.org/version/eng/minority-detail.asp?id_minorites=gr-mace}}</ref><ref name="Danforth">Danforth, L. (1995) ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'' ISBN 0691043574</ref><ref>{{cite web | title=The Guardian |work=Bittersweet return for Greek civil war's lost victims | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1064683,00.html}}</ref>

There is a dispute over the size of this alleged minority, with some Greeks denying it outright, and most ethnic Macedonians inflating the numbers substantially. The [[Greek Helsinki Monitor]] reports that, "difficult and therefore risky it is to declare a Macedonian minority identity in such an extremely hostile if not aggressive environment in Greece".<ref name=GHM /> There are no official statistics to confirm or deny either claims. The Greek government has thus far refused on the basis that there is no significant such community and that the idea of minority status is not popular amongst the (Greek identifying) linguistic community of northern Greece as it would have the effect of them being marginalized.<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.florina.org/html/2005/2005_greece_lies_to_coe.html| title=Rainbow — Vinozhito political party |work= Greek Diplomats and Members of the Greek Parliament Lie to the Council of Europe| accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref>

Professor Danforth reports:

{{quotation|
...Finally, the Greek government denies the existence of a Macedonian minority in northern Greece, claiming that there exists only a small group of "Slavophone Hellenes" or "bilingual Greeks," who speak Greek and "a local Slavic dialect" but have a "Greek national consciousness".<ref name=Danforth />
}}

A political party promoting this line and claiming rights of what they describe as the "Macedonian minority in Greece" — the [[Rainbow (political party)|Rainbow]] (Виножито) — was founded in September 1998; it received a minimal support of 2,955 votes in the region of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] in the latest elections (2004).<ref>{{cite web| title=Ministry of Interiors, Greece |work= 2004 Election results |accessdate= 2007-01-03 | url=http://www.ypes.gr/ekloges/content/gr/elec_data/2004UE_epi_res.asp |language=Greek}}</ref>

==Macedonian, language and dialect==
{{main|Macedonian language naming dispute}}

===Macedonian language (Slavic)===
The name of the [[Macedonian language]] ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: [[Cyrillic]]: Mакедонски јазик - [[Latin]]: ''Makedonski jazik'') as used by the people and defined in the constitution of the [[Republic of Macedonia]] is "Macedonian" ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: [[Cyrillic]]: Mакедонски јазик - [[Latin]]: ''Makedonski jazik'').<ref>[http://www.b-info.com/places/Macedonia/republic/Constitution.shtml Republic of Macedonia - Constitution]</ref> This is also the name used by international bodies, such as the [[United Nations]]<ref>[http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN018344.pdf Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights - FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA: PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION - OSCE/ODIHR Election Observation Mission - Final Report]</ref> and the [[World Health Organisation]].<ref>[http://www.who.int/entity/occupational_health/network/en/oehcompendium.pdf World Health Organization - WHO Library Cataloguing-in-Publication Data]</ref> The name is also used by convention in the field of [[Slavic Studies]].<ref>Sussex, R. (2006) ''The Slavic Languages'' (Cambridge : Cambridge University Press) ISBN 0-521-22315-6</ref>

However, for historical reasons, as well as due to the conflict with Greece, several other terms for the language remain in use. Some of the names use the family to which the language belongs to disambiguate it from the undoubtedly non-Slavic and entirely different [[ancient Macedonian language]], or from the homonymous [[modern Greek#Varieties|dialect of modern Greek]]; sometimes the autonym "Makedonski" is used in English for the modern Slavic language, with "Macedonian" being reserved for the ancient language.<ref>Joseph, B. (1999) [http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/publications/1999roma.pdf ''Romanian and the Balkans: Some Comparative Perspectives''] In S. Embleton, J. Joseph, & H.-J. Niederehe (eds.) ''The Emergence of the Modern Language Sciences.'' Studies on the Transition from Historical-Comparative to Structural Linguistics in Honour of E.F.K. Koerner. Volume 2: Methodological Perspectives and Applications. Amsterdam: John Benjamins (1999), pp. 218-235</ref>

Affirmation of the separateness of Macedonian as a separate language is an issue of some importance for the ethnic Macedonian self-view.<ref name="Danforth"/> In opposition to this, Bulgarian and Greek critics sometimes continue to insist on treating Macedonian as merely a dialect of Bulgarian, pointing to its close structural affinity, its historically late emergence as a separate standard language, and the political motivation behind its promotion in the mid-20th century.

===Macedonian dialect (modern Greek)===
Macedonian is applied to the present-day Greek dialect spoken by Macedonian Greeks.<ref>{{cite book |language=Greek |last=Ανδριώτης (Andriotis) |first=Νικόλαος Π. (Nikolaos P.) |year=1995 |title=Ιστορία της ελληνικής γλώσσας: (τέσσερις μελέτες) (History of the Greek language: four studies) |publisher=Ίδρυμα Τριανταφυλλίδη |location=Θεσσαλονίκη ([[Thessaloniki]]) |isbn=960-231-058-8}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last=Vitti |first=Mario |year=2001 |title=Storia della letteratura neogreca |publisher=Carocci |location=Roma |isbn=88-430-1680-6}}</ref>

===Macedonian (ancient)===
{{Main|Ancient Macedonian language}}

The origins of the [[ancient Macedonian language]] are currently debated. It is as yet undetermined whether it was a [[Ancient Greek dialects|Greek dialect]] which was part of or closely related to the [[Doric Greek|Doric]]<ref>{{cite book |last=Masson |first=Olivier |editor=S. Hornblower and A. Spawforth (eds.) |title=[[Oxford Classical Dictionary|The Oxford Classical Dictionary]] |origyear=1996 |edition=revised 3rd |year=2003 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=USA |isbn=0-19-860641-9 |pages=905–906}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |authorlink=N.G.L. Hammond |last=Hammond |first=N.G.L. |year=1989 |title=The Macedonian State. Origins, Institutions and History |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=0-19-814927-1 |pages=12–13}}</ref> and/or [[Aeolic Greek|Aeolic]]<ref>{{cite book |language=German |authorlink=Franz Heinrich Ludolf Ahrens |last=Ahrens |first=Franz Heinrich Ludolf |year=1843 |title=De Graecae linguae dialectis |location=Göttingen, 1839-1843}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last=Hoffmann |first=O. |title=Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum |location=Göttingen |year=1906 |language=German}}</ref> dialects, a sibling language of [[ancient Greek]] forming a ''Hellenic''<ref name="Joseph">{{cite book |first=B. |last=Joseph |year=2001 |chapter=Ancient Greek |editor=In: J. Garry et al. (eds.) |title=Facts about the world's major languages: an encyclopedia of the world's major languages, past and present |url=http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/articles/gancient.htm}}</ref> (i.e. Greco-Macedonian) supergroup, or an [[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] language which was a close cousin to Greek and also related to [[Thracian language|Thracian]] and [[Phrygian language|Phrygian]] languages.<ref>{{cite book |author=[[JP Mallory|Mallory, J.P.]] and Adams, D.Q. (eds.) |year=1997 |title=Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture |publisher=Taylor & Francis Inc. |isbn=1-884964-98-2 |page=361}}</ref> The scientific community generally agrees that, although some sources are available (e.g. [[Hesychius of Alexandria|Hesychius']] lexicon, [[Pella curse tablet]])<ref>{{cite book |language=French |author=Dubois L. |year=1995 |title=Une tablette de malédiction de Pella: s'agit-il du premier texte macédonien? Revue des Études Grecques (REG) |pages=108:190–197}}</ref> there is no decisive evidence for supporting either hypothesis.<ref>{{cite book |language=French |author=Brixhe C., Panayotou A. |year=1994 |title=Le Macédonien in: Langues indo-européennes |editor=Bader |location=Paris |pages=205–220}}</ref> Nevertheless, [[Attic Greek]], a form of the [[Greek language]], eventually supplanted it entirely in Macedonia from the 5th Century BC, and ancient Macedonian became extinct during the first few centuries AD. Attic Greek evolved into [[Koine Greek]] and in turn into [[Medieval Greek|Byzantine]] and [[modern Greek]].<ref>{{cite web |author=Brian D. Joseph |url=http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/articles/gmodern.htm |title=Greek, Modern |work=Ohio State University, Department of Linguistics}}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist|3}}

==See also==
*[[Macedonia (region)]]
*[[Macedonia (terminology)]]
*[[Macedonian Question]]
*[[List of homonymous states and regions]]
*[[Matthew Nimetz]] - Mediator
*[[Zoran Jolevski]] - Macedonian Negotiator
*[[Adamantios Vassilakis]] - Greek Negotiator

''Notice: Hyperlinks and emphasis in the quotations appearing in this article were not in the original source being quoted, but are merely used for disambiguation purposes.''

{{Hellenic foreign relations}}

[[Category:Geographical naming disputes]]

{{Link FA|mk}}
[[bg:Спор за името на Република Македония]]
[[de:Streit um den Namen Mazedonien]]
[[el:Μακεδονικό Ζήτημα]]
[[es:Disputa sobre el nombre de Macedonia]]
[[fr:Débat autour du nom de la Macédoine]]
[[ko:그리스-마케도니아 분쟁]]
[[id:Persengketaan nama Makedonia]]
[[mk:Спор за името помеѓу Македонија и Грција]]
[[no:Den makedonske navnekonflikten]]
[[pl:Konflikt grecko-macedoński]]
[[pt:FYROM]]
[[sv:Makedonska namnkonflikten]]

Macedonia naming dispute

2009-04-29T19:01:09Z

3rdAlcove: is that infobox map supposed to represent M. at the end of Alexander I's reign? a good part of chalcidice shouldn't be included, the northeast looks a bit weird.

Talk:Tsakonian language

2009-04-29T18:57:54Z

3rdAlcove:

{{WPENLANG}}
{{WPGR|class=|importance=|auto=yes}}
{{WP Languages|class=C}}

Tsakonian has "Albanian loanwords"---interesting. I want to read more about this. [[User:Decius|Decius]] 06:42, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:Most of them are shepherding terms, I believe. There is a quote from Pernot that goes something like "The Albanian's influence ends at the shepherd's door," i.e. the importation of vocabulary is limited to certain occupational terminology. There were villages in the area that were settled by Albanian shepherds, with whom the Tsakonians presumably had contact regarding sheep-related matters. --[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] 02:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
::For the record: that was a personal communication from Costakis to me, in 1996. [[User:Opoudjis|Opoudjis]] ([[User talk:Opoudjis|talk]]) 12:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
== Candidacy for page move and other issues ==
# The most common name for this language ''in English'' is '''Tsakonian'''. ''Tsakonic'' is much less common, and this page should be moved back to where it was when I started it almost two years ago (my very first Wikipedia edit!), with this page redirecting, instead of the other way around. The present situation is like having the [[Greek language]] article at "Hellenic tongue." Sure, it's a much better literal translation of the Greek term, but it would strike an English speaker as rather odd.
# The description of Tsakonic as a "Greek [[dialect]]" is incorrect (unless you take the minority position; see #4 below). While that is the correct name for it in Greek, and many Greeks think of it as being a dialect, it is actually considered a separate but related language in [[dialect continuum]] with Greek, like [[Flemish (linguistics)|Flemish]] with [[Dutch language|Dutch]], or the closely related [[Spanish language|Spanish]] and [[Portuguese language|Portuguese]]. (See [[Ausbausprache - Abstandsprache - Dachsprache]]). There are actually three principal dialects of Tsakonian itself, although one (Propontic Tsakonian) is extinct and it seems that one of the other two has all but disappeared. Exact figures are hard to come by, but I believe that Prof. Costakis latest surveys have found there to be 2-5,000 true full native speakers, and many tens of thousands of secondary or tertiary speakers. That contrasts to an estimated 250,000 speakers a century ago. (If we were doing [[Wikipedia:Babel|Babel]] for Tsakonian, we would have lots of TS-1, TS-2 and TS-3's, but relatively few TS-N's.) I would have to check with my friend Dr. Nicholas about this because it may quaiify as [[Wikipedia:No original research]], but I think that the real "Tsaconic dialect" is not the Tsakonian language itself, but the speech of the thousands of Peloponnesians whose parents or grandparents spoke Tsakonian and whose descendants speak a Tsakonian-flavored dialect of Standard Modern Greek.
#There is no bibliography here. I thought that the original article had a brief one with Pernot and Costakis' works mentioned. I actually have a copy of Syntomi Grammatiki tis Tsakonikis Dialektou sitting on my shelf here, so I'll put that in right away and add the others later.
#Tsakonian is not uncontroversial, and we should note that. While the current consensus seems to be that it is a Hellenic '''language''', there are some scholars around who dispute that classification. Again, while the consensus is that it is Doric-derived with a heavy Attic/Koine adstrate (and a little Albanian, Slavic and Turkish), scholars can be found to dispute this as well. Obviously, if you think that the extent of Doricisms to be found is overstated, you tend to lean less toward it being a separate language, and more toward it being just a '''dialect''' of Modern Greek.
--[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] 16:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
== Move ==
*The page should be moved not to [[Tsakonian]] but to [[Tsakonian language]] in keeping with Wikipedia naming conventions for languages. --[[User:Angr|Angr]]/[[User_talk:Angr|{{IPA|tɔk tə mi}}]] 14:10, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
:Oops, good point. --[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] 19:01, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
=== Voting ===
*'''For.''' Whether it should be classified as a separate, closely related language is still debated. What is not debatable is that ''Tsaconic'' as an adjective is almost non-existent in English, with most scholars calling the tongue Tsakonian, whether they argue that it is a separate Modern Greek language in its own right, or a mere dialect.--[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] 20:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. --[[User:Node ue|Node]]

Tsakonic or Tsakonian, is classified as a Greek '''dialect''' not only by linguists [http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/articles/gmodern.htm] , but also its native speakers [http://members.shaw.ca/leonidio/tsakonika/songs.htm], and that's the bottom line. Therefore there is no basis to talk a about a separate language, unless of course you're willing to compare sources. The vote is pointless and it won't help anything. As for changing it back to "Tsakonian", I can't see any reason other than you being eager to satisfy your ego. It's already mentioned that it's also known as "Tsakonian" and the old name has been redirected here. Furthermore the termination -ic is more correct as it derives directly from the Greek "Tsakoniki" and it's less corrupted in translation. As a significant contributor to the articles of the [[Greek language]], I think my opinion counts more than yours on this matter. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 03:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

:The article name should be the most common English name. Miskin, do you think that Tsakonic is more common? What are your sources for this? Doing a Google search on English pages for: "Tsakonian -Wikipedia" gives 692 hits [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&client=safari&rls=en-us&as_qdr=all&q=Tsakonian+-wikipedia&btnG=Search], whereas searching for "Tsakonic -Wikipedia" gives 64 [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&client=safari&rls=en-us&as_qdr=all&q=Tsakonic+-wikipedia&btnG=Search], a 10 to 1 ratio in favor of Tsakonian. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 04:06, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

:Actually, I want it to be moved to [[Tsakonian language]], not [[Tsakonian]] (its original title). And as it has been pointed out by me, and now by Paul August, Tsakonian is the most common name in ''English''. Talking about the word being "corrupted" in English is absurd - shall I go over to the Greek Wikipedia and change Αγγλική γλώσσα to Ινγκλίτς or the Γερμανική article to Nτοϊτς? No, that would be crazy, because it's not ''Greek''.
:I am willing to compare sources. We can start with the Ethnologue entry updated by Dr. Nick Nicholas. [http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=tsd]. It is listed there as "not inherently intelligible with Modern Greek", although it notes that Propontis Tsakonian was much closer to Standard Modern Greek. I am not denying that some very knowledgeable people consider it only a dialect, not an entirely separate language - sometimes that merely comes down to how you classify a "dialect." I am saying that the preponderance of sources at present classify it as a separate language.
:Where does this woman assert that she is a native speaker? She is a native of Leonidio (which has long since ceased to be a Tsakonian-speaking area) living in Canada, as far as I can tell from her webpage. Nowhere does she make the assertion that she is a native Tsakonian speaker. Neither do I remember her saying that when she made a post to the Yahoo! Tsakonian group asking if anyone there knew of links to Tsakonian music (one would think a native Tsakonian speaker would know where to look - except even they don't sing their songs in Tsakonian anymore!) A very nice lady, very polite in her Internet posts - unlike some people I could mention. What I find really interesting about that link is the part where she aserts that elderly people use Tsakonian as a "code language." Interesting - if the kids can't understand them, then doesn't that tend to support the theory that is a separate language and that Standard Modern Greek & the Modern Greek dialects lack mutual intelligibility with Tsakonian?
--[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] 08:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Your example of Αγγλικά - Ινγκλιτς is out of context because it's comparing two different cases. The English language has a "built-in" way to translate or assimilate Greek words from "-ικη" to "-ic" and "-ικα" to "-ics". Greek doesn't have a similar functionality to deal with "-ish" or "-an" so there you go. Anyway to show how unbiased I am, I really don't have a problem to change the name of the article to anything you like. Everything is redirected at the same place so I really don't see the difference. You can even name it Tsakonian language if you want and make all those edits that don't change anything except your personal satisfaction. What I will not allow you to do however, is to change the article's content by implying a "separate language" status of Tsakonian from Greek, or unlist it from [[Modern Greek]]. As for the dialect-language conflict, yes there's a very thin line between the two, this is why we take the best established views. There's also a debatable intelligibility between Tsakonian and standard Modern Greek, but then again partial comprehensibility is the very thing that distincts a dialect from an idiom. If you think that this site is not the representative opinion of a native speaker of Tsakonian, then I can make sure I get you one. I can even gather documented information by people who have a native diglossy between Tsakonian and Greek, and see whether they consider it a seperate language or not. If you think on the other hand that linguists consider it a separate language, then start preparing your sources. The voting system of wikipedia is rediculous, and this case proves it. I can personally guarantee that User:Angr for example (who edited above) has not a slightest clue in the Greek language, and I have saved a couple of articles from his petty vandalism. Now he comes here, posing as an expert, and having the right to vote like any other editor. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 12:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

:Miskin: The reason that the name matters is because of [[WP:UE]], which says that the most common English name should be used, notwithstanding the fact of redirects. By naming an article, we are implying that that is its most common English name. So do you agree that "Tsakonian" is the most common name in English? (By the way, I see no need to speculate on Jpbrenna's motives for suggesting the name change, and in any case, I see no reason to look further than the motive of wanting the name of the article to conform to [[WP:UE]].) As for the voting issue, generally we try to decide things on Wikipedia by consensus. We generally use voting only to attempt to measure the presence or lack of a consensus. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 18:38, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

::I assumed that since the most common name was also stated, wikipedia's bureaucracy would be satisfied. If it's so evident then you should proceed with the change already. It only strikes as a weird thing to me because I fail to see how can someone make such a big fuss such a unimportant matter. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 22:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the page and merged the edit histories (since the original "move" was done via a cut and paste, and the previous edit histories were "lost". [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 01:07, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

== Citations needed ==

#My addition claiming that Tsakonians traditionally did not call themselves Tskanones - it was in one of Dr. Nicholas's papers, with appropriate citation from his source, but I need to dig it up.
#It says Tsakonian is officially classified as a dialect. Is this the official position of the Greek government? Who makes this determination, the Vouli or the Ministry of Education or what? I don't dispute the fact that the Greek government considers it a dialect - I'd just like to know the who, what, when, where and how if possible, because I'm curious.--[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] 19:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Stop accusing the fascist Greek government, it's getting monotonous already. Tsakonian being a Greek dialect is not another Greek government evil scheme, it actually exists in both Greek and neutral linguistic sources. See Robert Browning's "Medieval and Modern Greek", among many others. [[User:Miskin|Miskin]] 23:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

== Minority position ==

I think the title of this page is misleading since it advocates a minority position. Tsakonian is a variety of the Greek language, not a separate language. I think the page should be renamed to [[Tsakonian]], [[Tsakonian Greek]], [[Tsakonian dialect]], [[Tsakonian (Greek)]] or another possible variation. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Demonax|Demonax]] ([[User talk:Demonax|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Demonax|contribs]]) 
:Hi Demonax, thanks for your comments, and welcome. As you can see from the talkpage above, there has been quite a bit of discussion about these names. I would personally go simply for [[Tsakonian]], in fact, but as there were several well-respected fellow editors who had different preferences, I wouldn't unilaterally force a change at this point. There are quite a number of articles in Wikipedia that have "...language" in the title without necessarily implying ''separate'' language - take it just like this: a dialect is a language too, the word in the title just serves to disambiguate from "Tsakonian people", "Tsakonian culture", or whatever. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 22:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I realize that, I also see a [[Pontic language]] and a [[Griko language]]. If the article is to retain its present title, then the article should make it very clear that we are talking about a dialect, not an independent language.
:Fair enough. But the current text "... is a dialect of Greek" in the lead sentence is already pretty clear, isn't it? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 23:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

==Minor add==
I will add the following sourced statement in the article, I welcome any constructive suggestions :

''In reality, although it is accepted that Tsakonian Language spoken in the eastern Peloponnese comes from ancient Greek is not necessary koiné. Although the language resulting in almost distinction , teaching material written in Tsakonian are provided in some school of Greece. ''

Reference : Variation in modern Greek Two varieties of Greek are sufficiently different
that linguists might want to suggest that they are actually separate languages. Tsakonian (see Newton 1972b), spoken in the eastern Peloponnese, is descended from Ancient Greek but not by way of the koiné. It is reported to be dying out, but some schools in the area have acknowledged the degree of difference between it and other forms of Greek by providing teaching materials written in Tsakonian. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics.Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 152 Dodona--[[User:Burra|Burra]] ([[User talk:Burra|talk]]) 21:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
: Sorry, but your sentence isn't correct English, and it makes no sense logically. What is the "although"..."although" doing there? And the "in reality"? What do you mean "not necessary"? You seem to be trying to express some logical relation between the parts of your sentence, but it just doesn't become clear what that relation is. I would gladly help you rewrite this in correct English, but I can't figure what exactly you mean. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 22:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
:Please feel free of any change, now i think the meaning is clear.Dodona--[[User:Burra|Burra]] ([[User talk:Burra|talk]]) 10:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
::I'll put in a sentence about the teaching materials, okay. But you need to tell me the author of the article you're quoting. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 11:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The phonology additions are welcome, but not particularly scholarly, I'm afraid. Lots of amateur speculation. I'm cleaning them up. The argumentation against Macedonian b and some other bits are WP:OR (and certainly not compelling or relevant here). [[User:Opoudjis|Opoudjis]] ([[User talk:Opoudjis|talk]]) 12:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== 70% similarity ==

A nasty situation arises with the claim of 70% similarity between Standard Modern Greek and Tsakonian, deleted six months ago because "Ethnologue is unreliable". Ethnologue sources its claim to me, and my claim is in an unpublished paper written 10 years ago, which I'm thinking I might as well post online. I think that will satisfy the claims of verifiability (albeit tenuously), and that therefore the 70% para should be restored. Any objections?

I further note that under any ''linguistic'' notion of what constitutes a separate language, 70% is conventionally agreed to mean Tsakonian is separate. (Any standard modern Greek speaker who claims Tsakonian is mutually intelligible with Greek is not, I would say, being honest.) There is no evidence for a distinct Tsakonian ethnic identity, and no great push to call it a separate language, but the 70% figure is straightforward... [[User:Opoudjis|Opoudjis]] ([[User talk:Opoudjis|talk]]) 09:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

:I was wondering about consistency across the pages on the varieties of Greek: right now, we have "Tsakonian language" but merely "Pontic", for example. While we can argue (endlessly) about the applicability of various metrics (and I merely note that I for one would love to see a source for the claim that "70% is conventionally agreed" to grant "language" status), there being no particular scientific one, only political, cultural, historical, sociological ones, it is common practice in the English-language literature on the development of Greek in all its varieties to refer to Tsakonian as a dialect (see for example Horrocks 1997:300 "... led to the creation and consolidation of the principal dialect divisions of modern Greek"; he lists eight, with Pontic and Cappadocian as one group, Tsakonian as another, etc.). This terminology should not be taken to imply mutual intelligibility: I can attest that Pontic Greek (especially spoken, though also to a great extent written) is not intelligible to standard modern Greek speakers, and I have no reason to doubt Opoudjis's similar claim for Tsakonian). But by wikipedia convention, the most usual term should be used (this is why Tsakonian is clearly preferable to Tsakonic). I note here as well that the sources that Horrocks 1997 cites (Pernot 1934 in French, Kostakis 1951, 1980 in Greek, and Kharalambopoulos 1980 in Greek) all also use the term "dialect" in their works. Therefore it seems reasonable to maintain some sort of consistency across the labelling of these varieties, with a preponderance of scholarly usage favoring 'dialect'. Something like "Tsakonian (Greek)", "Pontic (Greek)" would seem clear. I wish we could rely on some other authority, but the ISO 639-3 codes are themselves inconsistent on this point (assigning separate ISO codes to Pontic and Tsakonian (not under Greek), but listing Cappadocian with Greek).[[User:Mundart|Mundart]] ([[User talk:Mundart|talk]]) 16:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::First, Cappadocian ''does'' have its own ISO 639-3 code: [http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=cpg here]. The label "Greek" with the name Cappadocian should not be interpreted as anything other than a traditional name--the assignment of a separate ISO code itself indicates the consideration of this variety as a separate language.
::Second, only 70% similarity between two speech forms is generally considered by most linguists to mean two separate languages. This is specifically noted in Ethnologue as 70% lexical similarity. Most linguists who work with lexicostatistics mark the borders of language/dialect at about 85%. I'll have to find a reference, but I know that in my reading of lexicostatistic studies from various places in the world, that is the range where dialects are separated into languages. This goes back to the use of lexicostatistics and measuring the rate of language change. Using the Swadesh 200-word list, it was assumed that languages retained about 81% of core vocabulary over 1000 years. Using the revised 100-word list, that rate of retention changed to 86%. Most linguists who use these numbers equated 1000 years of separate existence to becoming a separate language. Thus, two speech varieties that only share 70% of basic vocabulary would clearly be two distinct languages. While lexicostatistics is seldom used today, the 85% figure is still quite firmly fixed in the collective linguistic consciousness as a strong indicator of two separate languages.
::Third, mutual intelligibility is nearly always equated with distinct languages, especially when there is not a dialect chain involved. If two speech varieties are mutually unintelligible, they are two separate languages. This overrides any "traditional usage" of the words "dialect" or "language" by locals in the minds of most linguists trying to standardize usage around the world. Thus, while Chinese linguists and Greek linguists call the different varieties "dialects" (in this case, Tsakonian, Pontic, and Cappadocian), global-oriented linguists call them separate "languages". (Conversely, they often link--with various levels of acceptance--Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish.) Tsakonian has not been mutually intelligible with Greek for at least 500 years. [http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/publications/2001lang.pdf Here] is one Greek/Tsakonian specialist who clearly states that Tsakonian can be considered a separate language because of the number of differences between Greek and Tsakonian at all levels of grammar and vocabulary.
::Fourth, there is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leonidio-Tsakonian-sign.jpg photo of a sign] at the border of Tsakonian territory in the article. It clearly uses the Tsakonian term ''groussa'' (Greek, ''glossa'') and not ''dialektos'' (or whatever the Tsakonian word for "dialect" is) to distinguish their speech variety from Greek. Heck, just looking closely at the grammar and vocabulary on the sign convinces me that these are two separate languages.
::By two separate objective measurements--percentage of shared vocabulary and mutual intelligibility--Tsakonian and Greek are separate languages. By the Tsakonian people's own judgement, they are separate languages. It is only by using subjective non-linguistic considerations that they are not separate languages. Ethnologue, Linguasphere, Voegelin & Voegelin, etc. all mark Tsakonian as a separate language. ([[User:Taivo|Taivo]] ([[User talk:Taivo|talk]]) 17:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC))

"Fourth, there is a photo of a sign at the border of Tsakonian territory in the article. It clearly uses the Tsakonian term groussa (Greek, glossa) and not dialektos (or whatever the Tsakonian word for "dialect" is) to distinguish their speech variety from Greek." lol [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 18:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Macedonia naming dispute

2009-04-29T18:57:44Z

3rdAlcove: ditto (this one isn't even correct or NPOV worded). add a clean-up tag to article, seems that it's sorely needed. I doubt such articles will ever get "it" right.

{{clean-up}}
{|align="right"
|colspan="2"|{{Political Macedonia 2}}
|-
|valign="top"|{{Politics of Greece}}
|valign="top"|{{Politics of the Republic of Macedonia}}
|}
The '''Macedonia naming dispute''' refers to the disagreement over the use of the name ''[[Macedonia (terminology)|Macedonia]]'' between [[Greece]] and the [[Republic of Macedonia]]. Greece opposes the post-1991 constitutional name of its northern neighbour, citing the lack of disambiguation between it and the adjacent Greek region of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]. Greece also objects to the undisambiguated use of the term ''Macedonian'' for the neighbouring country's main [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|ethnic group]] and [[Macedonian language naming dispute|language]]. The dispute has escalated to the highest level of international mediation, involving numerous attempts to achieve a resolution, notably by the [[United Nations]].

The provisional reference ''the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'' (FYROM) is currently always used in relations involving states which do not recognise the constitutional name, ''Republic of Macedonia''. Nevertheless, all [[United Nations|UN]] member-states, and the UN as a whole, have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries. The ongoing dispute has not prevented the two countries from enjoying close trade links and investment levels (especially from Greece), but it has generated a great deal of political and academic debate on both sides.

Negotiations aimed at resolving the dispute are [[#A continuing negotiation|ongoing]]. It had been hoped that a mutually acceptable solution might be achieved by [[NATO]]'s [[2008 Bucharest summit|summit in Bucharest]] in April 2008. However, the failure to resolve the dispute prevented the Republic of Macedonia from receiving an invitation to join the alliance, due to Greek objections. In return, the Republic of Macedonia referred Greece to the [[International Court of Justice]], accusing Athens of violating the 1995 UN-brokered Interim Accord between the two nations.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14845/ "Macedonia Takes Greece to World Court"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?p1=3&p2=1&code=mg&case=142&k=89 Application of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 (the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia v. Greece)]</ref>

==Background==
{{seealso|Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia#Greece|Foreign relations of Greece#Balkans}}

===Controversy and conflict===
The territory of present-day Republic of Macedonia was formerly part of [[Rumelia]], part of the Ottoman Empire up to 1913. In 1893 a revolutionary movement for the liberation of Macedonia as a separate territorial entity from the Ottoman rule began, resulting in the [[Ilinden Uprising]] on 2 August 1903 (St. Elias's Day). The failure of the Ilinden Uprising caused a change in the strategy of the [[Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization]] (IMRO) from revolutionary to institutional. It split into two wings (one fighting for autonomous Macedonia inside the Ottoman Empire or inside a Balkan Federation led by [[Jane Sandanski]], and a second Supremist wing supporting the inclusion of Macedonia in Bulgaria). After the Ilinden Uprising the revolutionary movement ceased and opened a space for frequent insurgencies of Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek squads into the territory of Macedonia. These squads, often supported by the local populations, often engaged the Turkish army, spelling the eventual collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The state of conflict in 1912 resulted in the [[First Balkan War]], and most of Ottoman Europe, including the territory of Macedonia, was liberated from the Ottomans.

In the next year the [[Second Balkan War]] began and the aftermath was division in 1913 of most of Ottoman Europe into four parts, between Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Albania. The present-day Republic of Macedonia was included in Serbia. In 1914 the First World War started and Bulgaria occupied the entire territory of Macedonia, defeating the Serbs and creating a [[Macedonian front (World War I)|front]] at [[Salonica]]. The present-day Republic of Macedonia was part of Bulgaria until 1918. After Bulgaria signed a capitulation, the borders returned with small adjustments to the situation of 1913, and the present-day Republic of Macedonia became part of the [[Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes]]. This period saw the first recognition of the Macedonian nation, by the [[League of Communists of Yugoslavia]] on the third congress in Vienna in 1926 and in 1936 [[Josip Broz Tito]] took over the leadership of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes changed its name in 1929 to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the present-day Republic of Macedonia was included together with South Serbia in a province named [[Vardar Banovina]]. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia ceased to exist in 1941 as a consequence of the [[Second World War]]. Bulgaria as part of the Axis powers advanced into the territory of the Republic of Macedonia and the Greek province of Macedonia. The territory of the Republic of Macedonia was included into Bulgaria and Italy, and after 1943 into Albania.

The [[National Liberation War of Macedonia]] began officially in 1941 in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia. The [[Macedonian National Liberation Army]], formed by Macedonian partisans, liberated the entire territory of the present-day Republic of Macedonia in 1944. On the 2nd of August in 1944 (St. Elias's Day), honouring the fighters of the Ilinden Uprising, the [[ASNOM|assembly of the people]] constituted the Macedonian state as a federal state within the framework of the future Yugoslav federation. In 1946 the [[Socialist Republic of Macedonia|People's Republic of Macedonia]] was established as federal part of the newly proclaimed [[Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia]] under the leadership of [[Josip Broz Tito]]. The issue of the republic's name immediately sparked controversy with Greece over concerns that it presaged a territorial claim on the Greek coastal region of Macedonia (see [[#Territorial concerns|Territorial concerns]] below). The republic in 1963 was renamed the "Socialist Republic of Macedonia", when the Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia was renamed the [[Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], but dropped the "Socialist" from its name when it declared independence from Yugoslavia in September 1991.

The newly independent republic's accession to the United Nations and recognition by the [[European Community]] was delayed by strong Greek opposition. Although the [[Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on the former Yugoslavia]] declared that the Republic of Macedonia met the conditions set by the EC for international recognition, Greece opposed the international community recognising the Republic due to a number of objections concerning the country's name, flag and constitution. In an effort to block the European Community from recognising the Republic,<ref name="veremis">Thanos Veremis, ''Greece'', pp. 315-316. C. Hurst & Co, 2002. ISBN 185065462X</ref> the Greek government persuaded the EC to adopt a common declaration establishing conditions for recognition which included a ban on "territorial claims towards a neighbouring Community state, hostile propaganda and the use of a denomination that implies territorial claims".<ref>"[http://www.ejil.org/journal/Vol4/No1/art7.html Recognition of States - Annex 2]", Declaration on Yugoslavia (Extraordinary EPC Ministerial Meeting, Brussels, 16 December 1991)</ref>

Greece's major political parties agreed on 13 April 1992 that the word "Macedonia" could not be included in any way in the new republic's name.<ref name="couloumbis">Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore C. Kariotis, Fotini Bellou, ''Greece in the Twentieth Century'', pp. 146-147. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0714654078</ref> This became the cornerstone of the Greek position on the issue. The [[Greek diaspora]] was also mobilised in the naming controversy. A [[Greek-American]] group, Americans for the Just Resolution of the Macedonian Issue, placed a full-page advertisement in the 26 April and 10 May 1992 editions of the ''New York Times'', urging President [[George H. W. Bush]] "not to discount the concerns of the Greek people" by recognising the "Republic of Skopje" as Macedonia. Greek-Canadians also mounted a similar campaign.<ref name="shea">John Shea, ''Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation'', p. 185-188, ISBN 978-0786402281, ISBN 0786402288, published by McFarland & Company (February 1997)</ref> The EC subsequently issued a declaration expressing a willingness "to recognise that republic within its existing borders... under a name which does not include the term Macedonia."<ref>European Council in Lisbon, 26/27 June 1992, [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/summits/lisbon/li2_en.pdf Conclusions of the Presidency, Annex II], p. 43</ref>

Greek objections likewise held up the wider international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia. Although the Republic applied for membership of the United Nations on 30 July 1992, its application languished in a diplomatic limbo for nearly a year. A few states—[[Belarus]], [[Bulgaria]], [[Croatia]], [[Lithuania]], [[Slovenia]] and [[Turkey]]—recognised the republic under its constitutional name before its admission to the UN.<ref name="veremis" /> Most, however, waited to see what the United Nations would do. The delay had a serious effect on the Republic, as it led to a worsening of its already precarious economic and political conditions. With war raging in nearby [[Bosnia and Herzegovina]] and [[Croatia]], the need to ensure the country's stability became an urgent priority for the international community.<ref>Graham T. Allison, Kalypso Nicolàeidis, ''The Greek Paradox: Promise Vs. Performance'', p. 120. MIT Press, 1997. ISBN 0262510928</ref> The deteriorating security situation led to the UN's first-ever preventative peacekeeping deployment in December 1992, when units of the [[United Nations Protection Force]] were deployed to monitor possible border violations from [[Serbia]].<ref>"[http://www.un.org/Depts/DPKO/Missions/unprof_p.htm Former Yugoslavia - UNPROFOR]", Department of Public Information, United Nations. 31 August 1996</ref>

===Compromise solutions===

During 1992, the [[International Monetary Fund]], [[World Bank]] and the [[International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia]] all adopted the appellation "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" to refer to the Republic in their discussions and dealings with it. The same terminology was proposed in January 1993 by France, Spain and the United Kingdom, the three EC members of the [[United Nations Security Council]], to enable the Republic to join the United Nations.<ref>"[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DC1F30F935A15752C0A965958260 Compromise Likely to Take Macedonia Into U.N.]", ''New York Times'', 26 January 1993</ref> The proposal was circulated on 22 January 1993 by the [[United Nations Secretary General]]. However, it was initially rejected by both sides in the dispute. It was immediately opposed by the Greek Foreign Minister, [[Michael Papacostaninou]]. In a letter to the Secretary General dated 25 January 1993, he argued that admitting the republic "prior to meeting the necessary prerequisites, and in particular abandoning the use of the denomination 'Republic of Macedonia', would perpetuate and increase friction and tension and would not be conducive to peace and stability in an already troubled region."<ref name="repertoire">''Repertoire of the Practice of the Security Council Twelfth Supplement 1993-1995'', [http://www.un.org/french/docs/cs/repertoire/93-95/93-95_7.pdf Chapter VII: Practice relative to recommendations to the General Assembly regarding membership in the United Nations 1993-1995]</ref>

The president of the Republic of Macedonia, [[Kiro Gligorov]], also opposed the proposed formula. In a letter of 24 March 1993, he informed the President of the United Nations Security Council that "the Republic of Macedonia will in no circumstances be prepared to accept 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' as the name of the country." He declared that "we refuse to be associated in any way with the present connotation of the term 'Yugoslavia' ".<ref name="repertoire" /> The issue of possible Serbian territorial ambitions had been a long-running concern in the Republic of Macedonia, which some Serbian nationalists still called "South Serbia" after its pre-World War II name.<ref>John B. Allcock, "Macedonia". In ''Europe Since 1945: An Encyclopedia'', ed. Bernard Anthony Cook, p. 807. Taylor & Francis, 2001. ISBN 0815340583</ref> The government in the Republic of Macedonia was consequently nervous of any naming formula which might be seen to endorse a possible Serbian territorial claim.

Both sides came under intense diplomatic pressure to compromise. The support that Greece had received initially from its allies and partners in [[NATO]] and the [[European Community]] had begun to wane due to a combination of factors that included irritation in some quarters at Greece's hard line on the issue and a belief that Greece had flouted sanctions against [[Slobodan Milošević]]'s [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]]. The intra-Community tensions were publicly exposed on 20 January 1993 by the Danish foreign minister, [[Uffe Ellemann-Jensen]], who attracted the ire of Greek members of the [[European Parliament]] when he described the Greek position as "ridiculous" and expressed the hope that "the Security Council will very quickly recognise Macedonia and that many of the member states of the Community will support this."<ref name="gallagher">Tom Gallagher, ''The Balkans in the New Millennium: In the Shadow of War and Peace'', pp. 7-8. Routledge, 2005. ISBN 0415349400</ref>

The Greek Prime Minister, [[Constantine Mitsotakis]], took a much more moderate line on the issue than many of his colleagues in the governing [[New Democracy (Greece)|New Democracy]] party.<ref name="veremis" /> Despite opposition from hardliners, he endorsed the proposal in March 1993.<ref name="bethlehem">Daniel L. Bethlehem, Marc Weller, ''The 'Yugoslav' Crisis in International Law'', p. xlv. Cambridge University Press, 1997. ISBN 0521463041</ref> The acceptance of the formula by Athens also led to the reluctant acquiescence of the government in Skopje, though it too was divided between moderates and hardliners on the issue.

On 7 April 1993, the UN Security Council endorsed the admission of the republic in [[UN Security Council Resolution 817]]. It recommended to the [[United Nations General Assembly]] "that the State whose application is contained in document S/25147 be admitted to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State."<ref>[http://www.nato.int/ifor/un/u930407a.htm United Nations Security Council Resolution 817], 7 April 1993</ref> The recommendation was agreed by the General Assembly, which passed Resolution 225 on the following day, 8 April, using virtually the same language as the Security Council.<ref>"[http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm Admission of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to membership in the United Nations]", United Nations General Assembly Resolution 225, 8 April 1993</ref> The Republic of Macedonia thus became the 181st member of the United Nations.

The compromise solution, as set out in the two resolutions, was very carefully worded in an effort to meet the objections and concerns of both sides. The wording of the resolutions rested on four key principles:

* The appellation "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" was purely a ''provisional'' term to be used only until the dispute was resolved.<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref>

* The term was a ''reference'', not a name; as a neutral party in the dispute, the United Nations had not sought to determine the name of the state.<ref name="frowein" /> The President of the Security Council subsequently issued a statement declaring on behalf of the Council that the term "merely reflected the historic fact that it had been in the past a republic of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."<ref name="repertoire" /> The purpose of the term was also emphasized by the fact that the expression begins with the uncapitalised words "the former Yugoslav", acting as a descriptive term, rather than "the Former Yugoslav", which would act as a [[proper noun]].<ref name="frowein" /> By also being a reference rather than a name, it met Greek concerns that the term "Macedonia" should not be used in the republic's internationally recognised name.

* The use of the term was purely "for all purposes within the United Nations"; it was not being mandated for any other party.<ref name="frowein" />

* The term did not imply that the Republic of Macedonia had any connection with the existing Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, as opposed to the historical and now-defunct Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.<ref name="repertoire" />

One additional concern that had to be taken care of was the seating of the Republic of Macedonia in the General Assembly. Greece rejected seating the Republic's representative under M [as in "Macedonia (former Yugoslav Republic of)"], and the Republic rejected sitting under F (as in "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", which turned the reference into a proper noun rather than a description). Instead, it was seated under T as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and placed next to [[Thailand]].<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref>

In due course, the same convention was adopted by many other international organizations and states but they did so independently, not as the result of being instructed by the UN. For its part, Greece did not adopt the UN terminology at this stage and did not recognise the Republic under any name. The rest of the international community did not immediately recognise the Republic, but this did eventually happen at the end of 1993 and start of 1994. The People's Republic of China was the first major power to act, recognising the Republic under its constitutional name on 13 October 1993. On 16 December 1993, two weeks before Greece was due to take up the European Community presidency, six key EC countries—Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom—recognised the Republic under its UN designation. Other EC countries followed suit in quick succession and by the end of December, all EC member states except Greece had recognised the Republic.<ref name="bethlehem" /> Japan, Russia and the United States followed suit on 21 December 1993, 3 February 1994, and 9 February 1994 respectively.<ref>Ian Jeffries, ''The Former Yugoslavia at the Turn of the Twenty-first Century'', p. 54. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0415281903</ref>

===A continuing dispute===

Despite the apparent success of the compromise agreement, it led to an upsurge in nationalist agitation in both countries. Anti-Western and anti-American feelings came to the fore in Greece, in response to a perception that Greece's partners in the EC and NATO had betrayed it.<ref name="gallagher">Tom Gallagher, ''The Balkans in the New Millennium: In the Shadow of War and Peace'', pp. 7-8. Routledge, 2005. ISBN 0415349400</ref> The government of Constantine Mitsotakis was highly vulnerable; it had a majority of only a couple of seats and was under considerable pressure from ultra-nationalists. After the country's admission to the UN, the hardline former foreign minister [[Antonis Samaras]] broke away from the governing New Democracy (ND) party along with three like-minded deputies who resented what they saw as the prime minister's unacceptable weakness on the Macedonian issue. This defection deprived ND of its slim parliamentary majority and ultimately caused the fall of the government, which suffered a landslide defeat in the general election of October 1993. It was replaced by the [[PASOK]] party under [[Andreas Papandreou]], who introduced an even more hardline policy on Macedonia and withdrew from the UN-sponsored negotiations on the naming issue in late October.<ref name="gallagher" /><ref>Robert Bideleux, Richard Taylor, ''European Integration and Disintegration: East and West'', p. 136. Routledge, 1996. ISBN 0415137403</ref>

The government of the Republic of Macedonia also faced domestic opposition for its part in the agreement. Protest rallies against the UN's temporary reference were held in the cities of [[Skopje]], [[Kočani]] and [[Resen, Republic of Macedonia|Resen]]. The parliament only accepted the agreement by a narrow margin, with 30 deputies voting in favour, 28 voting against and 13 abstaining. The nationalist opposition [[VMRO-DPMNE]] party called a [[vote of no confidence]] over the naming issue, but the government survived with 62 deputies voting in its favour.<ref>John Phillips, ''Macedonia: Warlords and Rebels in the Balkans'', p. 56. I.B.Tauris, 2004. ISBN 186064841X</ref>

The naming dispute has not been confined to the Balkans, as immigrant communities from both countries have actively defended the positions of their respective homelands around the world, organizing large protest rallies in major European, North American and Australian cities. After Australia recognized the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in early 1994, tensions between the two communities reached a climax, with churches and properties hit by a series of tit-for-tat bomb and arson attacks in [[Melbourne]].<ref>Dennis Ernest Ager, ''Language, Community and the State'', p. 63. Intellect Books, 1997. ISBN 1871516943</ref>

===Interim accord===
[[File:FlagofMacedonia91-95.png|right|150px|thumb|The former flag of the Republic of Macedonia (used from 1992–1995)]]
[[Image:Flag of Macedonia.svg|right|150px|thumb|The current flag of the Republic.]]
Greece and the Republic of Macedonia eventually formalised bilateral relations in an Interim Accord signed in New York on 13 September 1995.<ref name="Interim Accord">{{cite web|url=http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf|title=Interim Accord|date=1995|publisher=[[United Nations]]|accessdate=2008-11-07}}</ref> Under the agreement, the Republic removed the [[Vergina Sun]] from its flag and allegedly [[irredentism|irredentist]] clauses from its constitution, and both countries committed to continuing negotiations on the naming issue under UN auspices. For its part, Greece agreed that it would not object to any application by the Republic so long as it used only the appellation set out in "paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817" (i.e. "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia").{{Fact|date=January 2009}} This opened the door for the Republic to join a variety of international organisations and initiatives, including the [[Council of Europe]], [[OSCE]] and [[Partnership for Peace]].<ref>Edmund Jan Osmanczyk, "Macedonia, former Yugoslav Republic of", in ''Encyclopedia of the United Nations and International Agreements'' ed. Anthony Mango, p. 1355. Routledge, 2002. ISBN 0415939208</ref>

The accord was not a conventional perpetual treaty, as it can be superseded or revoked, but its provisions are legally binding in terms of international law. Most unusually, it did not use the names of either party. Greece, "the Party of the First Part", recognised the Republic of Macedonia under the term "the Party of the Second Part".<ref name="veremis">Thanos Veremis, ''Greece'', pp. 315-316. C. Hurst & Co, 2002. ISBN 185065462X</ref> The accord did not specifically identify either party by name (thus avoiding the awkwardness of Greece having to use the term "Macedonia" in reference to its northern neighbour). Instead, it identified the two parties elliptically by describing the Party of the First Part as having [[Athens]] as its capital and the Party of the Second Part having its capital at [[Skopje]].<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref> Subsequent declarations have continued this practice of referring to the parties without naming them.<ref>See e.g. the [http://old.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/hiperb/bilateral/fyrom.html Agreement on a five year development cooperation programme 2002-2006 between the Government of the Party of the First Part to the Interim Accord 13 September 1995 and the Government of the Party of the Second Part to the Interim Accord 13 September 1995]</ref>

Secretary [[Cyrus Vance]] was the witness of Interim Accord as Special Envoy of the Secretary-General of the United Nations.<ref name="Interim Accord">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=392|title=Interim Accord|date=1995|publisher=[[United Nations]]|accessdate=2008-11-07}}</ref>

=== Stalemate ===

The naming issue has not yet been resolved, but it has effectively reached a stalemate.<ref>Floudas, Demetrius Andreas; {{cite web |publisher= 24 (1996) Journal of Political and Military Sociology, 285|url=http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3719/is_199601/ai_n8752910 | title= "A Name for a Conflict or a Conflict for a Name? An Analysis of Greece's Dispute with FYROM”, |accessdate=2007-01-24}}</ref> Various names had been proposed over the years, for instance "New Macedonia", "Upper Macedonia", "Slavo-Macedonia", "Nova Makedonija", "Macedonia (Skopje)" and so on. However, these had invariably fallen foul of the Greek position that no permanent formula incorporating the term "Macedonia" is acceptable.<ref name="couloumbis">Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore C. Kariotis, Fotini Bellou, ''Greece in the Twentieth Century'', pp. 146-147. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0714654078</ref><ref>Kyriakos Kentrotis, "Echoes from the Past: Greece and the Macedonian Controversy", p. 100 in ''Mediterranean Politics'', ed. Richard Gillespie. Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1996. ISBN 0838636098</ref> Athens had counter-proposed the names "Vardar Republic" or "Republic of Skopje", but the government and opposition parties in Skopje had consistently rejected any solution that eliminates the term "Macedonia" from the country's name.<ref>David Turncock, ''The Human Geography of East Central Europe'', p. 33. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0415121914</ref> Following these developments, Greece has gradually revised its position and demonstrates its acceptance of a "composite solution" (i.e. the incorporation of the term "Macedonia" in the name, but with the use of a disambiguating qualifier).<ref name= GrFA /><ref name= Gorna /><ref name= dashskopje1 /><ref name= dashskopje2 /><ref name= Skai.10.2007>{{el icon}} [http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=62678 Skai News], Συμβιβασμός ή βέτο (''Compromise or Veto''), Retrieved on 2007-10-14. The source uses original quotes from an interview of MFA [[Dora Bakoyannis]] in [[Kathimerini]] newspaper where she supports a composite name solution.</ref><ref>{{en icon}} [http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/15102007_McC_KL1337.htm Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs], ''Interview of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis in the Athens daily Kathimerini, with journalist Ms. D. Antoniou (Sunday, 14 October 2007)'', [full text], Retrieved on 2007-10-15</ref>

The inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia are overwhelmingly opposed to changing the country's name. A June 2007 opinion poll found that 77 per cent of the population were against a change in the country's constitutional name, and 72 per cent supported the Republic's accession to [[NATO]] only if it was admitted under its constitutional name. Only 8 per cent supported accession under the reference "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"<ref>"Macedonians in Favour of NATO Accession Under Constitutional Name", A1 TV, 12 June 2004</ref>.

A number of states recognise the Republic of Macedonia by its constitutional name. A few had recognized it by this name from the start, while most others had switched from recognising it under its UN reference. By September 2007, 118 countries (61% of all UN member states) had recognised the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.<ref name="mia">{{cite news |title=New Draft Resolution Won't Change US Position Towards Macedonia |work=Foreign Ministry |publisher=MIA news agency |location=Skopje |date=2007-08-09 |url=http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2008/08/greek-olympic-committee-protests-over.html}}</ref> Some observers have suggested that the gradual erosion of the Greek position means that "the question appears destined to die" in due course.<ref>Duncan M. Perry, "The Republic of Macedonia: finding its way", in ''Democratization and Authoritarianism in Postcommunist Societies'', ed. Karen Dawisha, Bruce Parrott, p. 270. Cambridge University Press, 1997. ISBN 0521597331</ref> On the other hand, attempts by the Republic to persuade international organisations to drop the provisional reference have met with limited success. A recent example was the rejection by the [[Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe]] of a draft proposal to replace the provisional reference with the constitutional name in [[Council of Europe]] documents.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=22.01.2008,id=10870080|title= Βρήκαν τοίχο τα Σκόπια στο Συμβούλιο της Ευρώπης|work=[[Eleftherotypia|Ελευθεροτυπία]]|author=Νίκος Ρούσσης|date=2008-01-22}}</ref>

The compromise reference is always used in relations when states not recognizing the constitutional name are present. This is because the UN refers to the country only as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", although all UN member-states (and the UN itself) have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries. Moscow's ambassador to Athens, Andrei Vdovin, stated that Russia will support whichever solution stems from the UN compromise talks, while hinting that "it is some other countries that seem to have a problem in doing so".<ref>[http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_1_02/03/2008_261439 Kathimerini], «Ναι» από τη Ρωσία στο όνομα που θα συμφωνηθεί (''"Yes" from Russia in whichever name agreed''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref>

Although the two countries continue to argue over the name, in practice they deal pragmatically with each other. Economic relations and cooperation have resumed to such an extent that Greece is now considered one of the Republic's most important foreign economic partners and investors.<ref>{{cite web | author=National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia | url=http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/WBStorage/Files/AI_Annual_Report_2003_ang.pdf | title=Annual Report 2003 |accessdate=2006-11-19 | format=PDF | work= }}</ref>

Most Greeks reject any use of the word "Macedonia" to describe the Republic of Macedonia, instead calling it "ΠΓΔΜ" (Πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας), the Greek translation of FYROM, or ''[[Skopje]]'' and its inhabitants ''Skopians'' (Greek: ''Σκοπιανοί''), after the country's capital. This [[metonymy|metonymic]] name is not used by non-Greeks, and many inhabitants of the Republic regard it as insulting. Greek official sources sometimes use the term "Slavomacedonian" to refer to the Republic's inhabitants; the US State Department has used the term side by side with "Macedonian", albeit having them both in quotation marks.<ref>{{cite web | author=[[United States Department of State]], Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
|title=Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2005 |accessdate=2006-11-19 | url=http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61651.htm |date=2006-03-09 |format=HTML |work=}}</ref> The name "Macedonian Slavs" (Македонски Словени) is another term used to refer to the ethnic Macedonians by non-Greeks. A number of news agencies have used it (although the BBC recently discontinued its use on the grounds that people had alleged it was offensive), and it is used by the [[Encarta]] Encyclopedia. The name has been occasionally used in early ethnic Macedonian literary sources as in [[Krste Misirkov]]'s work ''On Macedonian Matters'' (Za Makedonckite Raboti) in 1903.

The March 2004 application of the Republic of Macedonia for membership of the European Union may help to speed efforts to find a solution; in a meeting of 14 September 2004, the EU noted that the difference over the name of the Republic of Macedonia still persists and encouraged parties to find a mutually acceptable solution, but stated that it is not part of the conditions for [[Accession of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the European Union|EU accession]]. It was, however, a handicap for its membership into [[NATO]].

===Recent proposals and the "double name formula"===
In 2005, [[Matthew Nimetz]], UN Special Representative, suggested using "Republika Makedonija-Skopje" [sic] for official purposes. Greece did not accept the proposal outright, but characterized it as "a basis for constructive negotiations". Prime Minister [[Vlado Buckovski]] rejected the proposal and counterproposed a "double name formula" where the international community uses "Republic of Macedonia" and Greece uses "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".<ref name=dashskopje1>{{cite news | title=Greece considers Macedonia name | url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4425249.stm | publisher=[[BBC News]] |date=2005-04-08 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }} </ref><ref name=dashskopje2>{{cite web |publisher=Southeast European Times |first=Zoran |last=Nikolovski |date=2005-04-14 |title=Nimitz Proposal For Macedonia's Name Sparks Debate | url=http://www.balkan-info.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2005/04/14/feature-02 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }}</ref>

Nimetz was reported to have made a new proposal in October 2005; that the name "Republika Makedonija" should be used by those countries that have recognized the country under that name and that Greece should use the formula "Republika Makedonija – Skopje", while the international institutions and organizations should use the name "Republika Makedonia" in Latin alphabet transcription. Although the government of the Republic of Macedonia accepted the proposal as a good basis for solving the dispute, Greece rejected the proposal as unacceptable.<ref name="oneworld_20051014">{{cite news |publisher=OneWorld Southeast Europe | url=http://see.oneworld.net/article/view/120536/1/ | title=Matthew Nimitz Will Not Present a New Proposal on the Name date=2005-10-14 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }}</ref>

In December 2006, the government of the Republic announced the intent to rename [[Skopje Airport]] "Petrovec" to "Aleksandar Veliki" ([[Alexander the Great]]).<ref name=kath1>{{cite web| url= http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100006_29/12/2006_78322 | title= Kathimerini | work= A stir over name of Skopje’s airport | accessdate=2007-01-19 | year= Friday 29 December 2006}}</ref> Matthew Nimetz was invited to Athens in January 2007, where he commented that the efforts to mediate in the issue over the name were "affected and not in a positive way".<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=50789&NrIssue=243&NrSection=20 | title= Makfax vesnik | work= Nimetz's talks in Athens included "Alexander the Great" | accessdate=2007-01-19 | year= Friday, 12.01.2007}}</ref>

===NATO and EU accession talks===

The Republic of Macedonia's aspirations to join the European Union and NATO under its constitutional name have caused controversy in recent years. Under the Interim Accord of September 1995, Greece agreed not to obstruct the Republic's applications for membership in international bodies as long as it did so under its provisional UN appellation. Leading Greek officials had repeatedly stated that Athens would [[veto]] the country's accession in the absence of a resolution to the dispute.<ref>{{cite web|title=Southeast European Times|work=Greece to veto Macedonia's EU, NATO bids if name issue not resolved|url=http://setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/newsbriefs/setimes/newsbriefs/2007/09/07/nb-06|accessdate= 2007-09-19}}</ref><ref name=noEUsorry>{{cite web| url=http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=18371 | title=Embassy of Greece - Washington, DC | work=Answer of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis regarding the FYROM name issue | dateformat= mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006 |language= English}}</ref><ref>{{cite web| url=http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=76 |title= United Macedonian Diaspora | work= Interview with Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 2 November 2006}}</ref> The [[Minister for Foreign Affairs (Greece)|Greek foreign minister]], [[Dora Bakoyannis]], stated that "...the [[Hellenic Parliament]], under any composition, will not ratify the accession of the neighbouring country to the [[EU]] and [[NATO]] if the name issue is not resolved beforehand."<ref name=noEUsorry>{{cite web| url=http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=18371 | title=Embassy of Greece - Washington, DC | work=Answer of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis regarding the FYROM name issue | dateformat= mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006 |language= English}}</ref><ref>{{cite web| url=http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=76 |title= United Macedonian Diaspora | work= Interview with Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 2 November 2006}}</ref>

The Greek Prime Minister [[Kostas Karamanlis]] had initially denied ever committing himself unequivocally to exercising Greece's right of veto, stating instead that he would only block the neighbouring country's application for EU and NATO membership if it sought to be admitted as the "Republic of Macedonia",<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20070911&nid=5953596&sn=ΚΥΡΙΟ%20ΤΕΥΧΟΣ&spid= | title= To Vima | work= "I Never Used the Word Veto" | accessdate=2007-01-23 | date= September 11, 2007}}</ref> but on 19 October 2007, he stated that without a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue, the country could not join either NATO or the EU.<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=13321 | title= Eleútheros Týpos | work= "Karamanlis: No accession without a solution for the name" | accessdate=2007-10-25 | date= 19 October 2007}}</ref>

Negotiations between Athens and Skopje were resumed on the 1 November 2007, continued on 1 December of the same year, and a bilateral meeting was held in January 2008. On 19 February 2008 in Athens, the delegations of the two countries met under the auspices of the UN mediator, Matthew Nimetz. They were presented with a new framework, which they both accepted as a basis for further negotiations. The new framework was intended to be secret for the negotiations to take place, but leaked early in the press. The full text in Greek was published initially by ''[[To Vima]]'' and circulated fast in all major media. It contained 8 points, and the general idea was a "composite name solution" for all international purposes.<ref name=NimetzComprText>[http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=22.02.2008,id=81896072 Enet News], Ολόκληρο το κείμενο της πρότασης Νίμιτς (''Whole text of the Nimetz proposal'') ([http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.enet.gr%2Fonline%2Fonline_text%2Fc%3D110%2Cdt%3D22.02.2008%2Cid%3D81896072&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 Automatic translation in English]), Retrieved on 2008-03-06.</ref> It also contained five proposed names:<ref name=NimetzComprText />

*"Constitutional Republic of Macedonia"
*"Democratic Republic of Macedonia"
*"Independent Republic of Macedonia"
*"New Republic of Macedonia"
*"Republic of Upper Macedonia"

On 27 February 2008, a rally was held in Skopje called by several organizations in support of the name "Republic of Macedonia".<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8192/ Balkan Insight.com], ''Macedonians Rally 'To Protect Name','' Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref> Greek nationalist party [[Popular Orthodox Rally]] also organized a similar rally in Thessaloniki on 5 March, in support of the name "Macedonia" being used only by Greece.<ref>[http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,id=22605288 Enet.gr], Συλλαλητήριο ΛΑΟΣ την άλλη Τετάρτη στη Θεσσαλονίκη (''LAOS Demonstration next Wednesday in Thessaloniki''), Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref> The Greek church and both major Greek parties have strongly discouraged such manifestations "during this sensitive time of negotiation".<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74729 Skai News], Εκ του σύνεγγυς στη Νέα Υόρκη (''Concurrently in New York''), Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74772 Skai News], Χαμηλοί τόνοι (''Low tones''), Retrieved on 2008-02-29.</ref>

On 2 March 2008 in New York, Matthew Nimetz announced that the talks failed, that there is a "gap" in the positions of the two countries, and that there will not be any progress, unless there is some sort of compromise, which he characterized as "valuable" for both sides.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74961 Skai News] "Ναυάγιο" στις διαπραγματεύσεις (''"Shipwreck" in the talks''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75029 Skai News], Στην Αθήνα με "μήνυμα" ο Σέφερ (''[[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer|Scheffer]] in Athens with a "message"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> After Greek PM Karamanlis's warnings that "no solution equals no invitation",<ref name=GrVeto>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74863 Skai News], "Μη λύση σημαίνει μη πρόσκληση" (''No Solution equals No Invitation''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> the Greek media took it for granted that Greece would [[veto]] the coming [[NATO Membership Action Plan|NATO accession talks]] for the country, in the Foreign Ministers' summit on 6 March 2008 in Brussels.<ref>[http://www.ant1online.gr/Politics/Diplomacy/Pages/20083/fd8a8be7-93f3-4f9f-87dc-8f6525a2f9e5.aspx Ant1 News], Ώρα μηδέν για το Σκοπιανό (''Time Zero for the Skopjan issue''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref><ref name=GrVeto2>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=878422&lngDtrID=244 in.gr], Στην Αθήνα τη Δευτέρα ο γγ του ΝΑΤΟ με φόντο το αδιέξοδο στο θέμα της ΠΓΔΜ (''NATO Secretary in Athens on Monday after FYROM issue deadlock''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref>

Meanwhile, in a newer poll in Greece, the "composite name that includes the name Macedonia for the country" seemed, for the first time, to be marginally more popular than the previous more hard-lined stance of "no Macedonia in the title" (43% vs 42%). In the same poll, 84% of the respondents were pro-veto in the country's NATO accession talks, if the issue wasn't resolved by then.<ref name=GrVeto2 /><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74967 Skai News], Υπέρ του βέτο το 84% των Ελλήνων (''84% of Greeks Are For Veto''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> All Greek political parties except the small nationalist party Popular Orthodox Rally support the "composite name for all uses" solution, and vehemently oppose to any "[[Macedonia naming dispute#Recent proposals and the .22double name formula.22|double name]]" formula which is proposed by the republic.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74076 Skai News], Ενημέρωση για την πρόταση Νίμιτς (''Briefing on Nimetz's proposal''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> This shift in the official and public position was described by the PM of Greece as "the maximum recoil possible".<ref name=GrVeto />

Following his visit to Athens for an attempt to persuade the Greek government not to proceed in a veto, the NATO Secretary General [[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer]] implied that the onus to compromise rested on the Republic of Macedonia.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7276524.stm BBC News], ''Macedonia urged to solve name row'', Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref> In the same spirit, the EU enlargement commissioner [[Olli Rehn]], expressed his fear that "it might have negative consequences on [[Accession of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the European Union|FYROM’s EU bid]], although it is a bilateral question, Greece - as any other EU member - has the right to veto".<ref name=GapRemains>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75294 Skai News], "Παραμένει το χάσμα" (''"The gap remains"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref><ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8393/ BalkanInsight], ''EU Warns Over Macedonia 'Name','' Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=103916&NrIssue=600&NrSection=10 Makfax Online], ''Rehn requested settling of the name issue'', Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref> On 5 March 2008, Nimetz visited Skopje to try to find common ground on his proposal, but announced that "the gap remains".<ref name=GapRemains/>

As earlier anticipated, on 6 March 2008, in the NATO Foreign Minister's summit in Brussels, Greek minister [[Dora Bakoyannis]] announced that "as regards the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, ... , unfortunately, the policy followed by our neighbouring country in its relations with Greece, on the one side with intransigence and on the other with a logic of nationalist and irredentist actions tightly connected with the naming issue, does not allow us to maintain a positive stance, as we did for Croatia and Albania. ... As long as there is no such solution, Greece will remain an insuperable obstacle to the European and Euro-Atlantic ambition of FYROM".<ref name=veto1>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75394 Skai News], "Η Ελλάδα ανυπέρβλητο εμπόδιο" (''"Greece, an insuperable obstacle"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-07.</ref><ref name=veto2>[http://www.skai.gr/master_avod.php?id=75389 Skai News Video], "Λύση ή Βέτο" (''"Solution or Veto"''), video of Bakoyannis' press interview after the summit, Retrieved on 2008-03-07.</ref>

On 7 March 2008, the US [[Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs]], [[Daniel Fried]], made an unscheduled visit to Skopje, with the message that the two sides must cooperate with Matthew Nimetz to find a mutually acceptable solution for the naming dispute.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75520 Skai News], Επαφές στα Σκόπια (''Contacts in Skopje''), Retrieved on 2008-03-08.</ref>

Concerns have been expressed in Skopje and Athens on the stability of the governing coalition of [[VMRO-DPMNE]] and [[Democratic Party of Albanians]] (DPA) and subsequently the negotiating power of PM [[Nikola Gruevski]] with regards to the naming dispute, after the leader of DPA Menduh Thaçi accused the government of not complying to its requests about the rights of [[Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia]].<ref name=crisis>[http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSL12922300 Reuters], "Albanian party threatens to bring down Macdonian govt", Retrieved on 2008-03-12</ref> Greek media considered the option that the crisis may be a diplomatic way of increasing the pressure for the Greek side.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75990 Skai News], Νέοι Ελιγμοί (''New Tactics''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref> Following a call for cooperation by the president [[Branko Crvenkovski]], the other four major parties agreed to support Gruevski's government until [[2008 Bucharest summit|NATO's convention in Bucharest]] on 4 April 2008.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76055 Skai News], Σκόπια: Έκκληση για πολιτική συναίνεση (''Skopje: Call for political cooperation''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76105 Skai News], Στηρίζουν Γκρουέφκσι (''[They] Support Gruevski''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref>

Following the declaration of Athens for a veto, the press in Skopje reported increased intervention from the United States to solve the dispute, through [[Victoria Nuland]], the US NATO ambassador.<ref name=Unchanged /> Antonio Milošoski announced that "Nimetz's proposal remains unchanged".<ref name=Unchanged /> The daily newspaper ''[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|Dnevnik]]'' reported that diplomatic sources claim that this is the last attempt from the American leadership to help in finding a solution, and that the target of this effort will be for the country to retreat from its position for a "double name formula" and Greece to accept something along these lines.<ref name=Unchanged /> It continued that the US would exercise pressure to both parts for finding a solution until NATO's summit, so that the alliance can be expanded.<ref name=Unchanged /> [[Olli Rehn]] urged "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to show the correct political will in seizing the opportunity to find an acceptable solution for both parts".<ref name=Unchanged>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75753 Skai News], "Η εντολή του Νίμιτς παραμένει ως έχει" (''"Nimetz's order remains unchanged"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

A new meeting between Nimetz and the two parties was arranged on 17 March 2008, in Vienna, in the office of the former US special envoy to Kosovo and ex-[[president of Finland]], [[Martti Ahtisaari]].<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76251 Skai News], Ξεκίνησαν οι Συνομιλίες (''The Talks Began''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref> Nimetz noted that he did not present any new proposals, thanked the United States with whom he said he was in contact, and urged more countries to help in solving the dispute. He also announced that he is more optimistic after this meeting, and that he focused only on the solutions that could be applied by NATO's summit in April.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76261 Skai News], Αισιόδοξος ο Νιμιτς (''Nimetz is Optimistic''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

According to the press in the Republic of Macedonia<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=86447574CFD4D748998828E31E075A41|title=По Виена Нимиц е поголем оптимист за името (After Vienna Nimetz is a bigger optimist about the name)|date=2008-03-18|publisher=[[Utrinski vesnik (daily newspaper)|Utrinski Vesnik]]|language=Macedonian|accessdate=2008-05-11}}</ref> Nimetz now limited his proposal to three names of the five that were proposed in his original framework:<ref name=NimetzComprText />

*"Republic of Upper Macedonia"
*"New Republic of Macedonia" or "Republic of New Macedonia"
*"Republic of Macedonia-Skopje"

Of the three, Greek media have reported that the only serious contender is "New Macedonia", being the solution favoured throughout the current round of negotiations by Washington, which regards it as the "most neutral" option.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20080319&nid=7890209&sn=&spid=|title=Αναζητούν συμβιβασμό με «Νέα Μακεδονία» (''Seeking a compromise with "New Macedonia"'')|work=[[To Vima]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-19}}</ref> According to some reports, all three proposals were swiftly rejected by Skopje on the grounds that "neither would constitute a logical basis for a solution, given that all had been rejected by one or the other side over the last 15 years".<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76371 Skai News], "Όχι" από Σκόπια στις προτάσεις Νίμιτς (''"No" from Skopje to Nimetz proposals''), Retrieved on 2008-03-19.</ref> Greek diplomatic sources have intimated that international pressure has now shifted towards the former Yugoslav republic.<ref name=3proposals>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76333 Skai News], Εντατικές διαπραγματεύσεις για το όνομα (''Intense negotiations for the name''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

A special meeting outside the auspices of the UN was arranged on 21 March 2008, at US ambassador's to NATO [[Victoria Nuland]]'s house in Brussels, between the two foreign ministers [[Dora Bakoyannis]] and [[Antonio Milošoski]] and with the presence of the US [[Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs]], [[Daniel Fried]].<ref name=commitment>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76459 Skai News], "Δέσμευση" για το όνομα (''"Commitment" for the name''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref><ref name=commitment2>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76552 Skai News], Νέος γύρος συνομιλιών για το όνομα (''New round of talks for the name''),Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref> Following the meeting, both ministers stressed for the first time their "commitment" for finding a solution until NATO's summit.<ref name=commitment /><ref name=commitment2 />

The first voices seeking compromise have started to be heard in Skopje.<ref name= compromisevoices>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76555 Skai News], Σύσκεψη για το όνομα στα Σκόπια (''Meeting for the name in Skopje''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref> The president of the republic, [[Branko Crvenkovski]], announced: "If during the ongoing talks we can reach a rational compromise, which from the one side will defend our ethnic identity, and from the other will enable us to receive the NATO invitation, while at the same time canceling our further EU accession obstacles, then I think that this is something that must be supported, and I personally side with the supporters. Some accuse me that with my stance I am undermining the negotiating position of the Republic of Macedonia, yet I do not agree, because we are not in the beginning, but in the final phase of the negotiations. The one who will tell me that the price is high, is obliged to address the public opinion and announce an alternative scenario on how Macedonia will develop in the next ten to fifteen years."<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=884242&lngDtrID=244 in.gr], Ενισχύονται οι φωνές στο εσωτερικό της ΠΓΔΜ για ένα «λογικό συμβιβασμό» στην ονομασία (''Voices within FYROM for a "logical compromise" are louder''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref>

In the same spirit, opposing [[New Social Democratic Party]] party leader [[Tito Petkovski]] (which by now participates in the governmental coalition until NATO's summit), announced: "I do not hide that we must proceed on a international usage name's change, with some type of addition, which in no way must put our values under question. I do not want to proceed in an auction with the name, because that will be very damaging also for the interests of the neighboring country that disputes it." He added that "the overwhelming majority of the state and the scholars, ask for a solution and for a way out, using something that does not put our identity and our cultural distinction under questioning. I think that such a solution can be found, especially if the greatest lobbyists and supporters of ours, the United States, declare that Macedonia will be safe, with a safe territorial integrity, with financial support and dynamic development. If we declare which name we support, probably there will be more terms".<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2 />

However, governing [[VMRO-DPMNE]] party leader, and current prime minister, [[Nikola Gruevski]], when asked to comment on these statements, said: "We have different views with Mr.Petkovski, however there is still time to overcome these differences and reach a solution which will benefit the country".<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2 />

Centre-left Greek newspaper ''[[To Vima]]'' reported that the two countries were close to an agreement on the basis of the name "New Macedonia" or the untranslated native form, "Nova Makedonija".<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20080321&nid=7901142&sn=&spid=|title=Πιθανή συμφωνία στο «Νέα Μακεδονία» (''Possible agreement on "New Macedonia"'')|work=[[To Vima]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-21}}</ref>

Another meeting under the auspices of UN mediator [[Matthew Nimetz]] was held in New York on 25 March 2008.<ref name=geoMk >[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76795 Skai News], "Όνομα με γεωγραφική διάσταση" (''"Name with a geographic dimension"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-26.</ref> Nimetz announced his final proposal, with a name "with a geographic dimension, and for all purposes".<ref name=geoMk /> He also noted that the proposal is a compromise, and that the ways of implementation are also included in his proposal. The two representatives will urgently return to their countries for consultation on this proposal, given the short timeframe until NATO's summit.<ref name=geoMk /> According to the latest Greek media reports, Nimetz revived his 2005 proposal, "Republic of Macedonia-Skopje".
<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76800|title=Νέα ονομασία (''New name'')|work=[[Skai TV|ΣΚΑΪ.gr]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-26}}</ref> The news agency for Macedonian private television station [[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1]] reported that the full proposal was:
*The constitutional name, in Cyrillic ("Република Македонија") could be used for internal purposes.
*"Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" would be used for international relations.
*For bilateral relations, "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" is suggested, and any countries using the state's constitutional name would be encouraged to use it, but not forced to change it.
*The terms "Macedonia" and "Macedonian", on their own, would be able to be used freely by both countries
The Macedonian government has not yet issued a statement on whether the proposal has been accepted or rejected.<ref>{{citenews|http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=91146|title=Нимиц предложи формула за решавање на спорот (''Nimetz proposes a formula for solving the dispute'')|work=[[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1 News]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis told journalists that the proposal does not meet Greece's stated objectives.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8777&pubid=728559|title=Δεν ικανοποιεί την Ελλάδα η πρόταση (''The proposal does not satisfy Greece'')|work=[[Ethnos (newspaper)|Ethnos]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=91130|title=Бакојани: Предлогот е далеку од целите на Грција (''The proposal is far from the objectives of Greece'')|work=[[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1 News]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

The Macedonian foreign minister, Antonio Milošoski, stated that any reasonable solution that did not impose on the identity of ethnic Macedonians would be explored. However, he also stated that if Greece were to veto the country's entrance into NATO, compromise talks would be stopped.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=4EF69757C67A414BB0E4B6373240DF8C|title=Македонија подготвена за разумен компромис (''Macedonia prepared for a reasonable compromise'')|work=[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|Dnevnik newspaper]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=0&EditionID=964&ArticleID=51657|title=Има мала надеж за компромис (''There is still small hope for a compromise'')|work=[[Nova Makedonija (newspaper)|Nova Makedonija]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|http://www.vest.com.mk/default.asp?id=149257&idg=8&idb=2333&rubrika=Makedonija|title=Грчко вето ќе ги прекине преговорите (''A Greek veto will stop the negotiations'')|work=Vest|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

Meanwhile, police in Skopje said they were investigating death threats against academics, journalists and politicians who publicly favour reaching a compromise in the dispute with Greece.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/27/europe/EU-GEN-Macedonia-Death-Threats.php|title=Macedonia police examine death threats over name dispute|work=[[International Herald Tribune]]|date=2008-03-27}}</ref>

===NATO non-invitation===
{{seealso|2008 Bucharest summit}}

On 3 April 2008, in [[NATO]]'s [[2008 Bucharest summit|summit in Bucharest]], Greece presented its case on the non-invitation of the republic. NATO secretary general [[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer]] announced the mutually agreed text of the NATO members, which included the following points:

* Reason for no invitation was the inability to find solution in the name dispute
* Open invitation to the government of Skopje for new negotiations for the name under the auspices of the United Nations,
* The wish that those negotiations start as soon as possible
* And the further wish that they are concluded as soon as possible, without mentioning a specific time frame.<ref name=NewData>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=77661 Skai News], Νέα δεδομένα μετά το βέτο (''New situation after veto'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D77661&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 machine translation in English]), retrieved on 2008-04-03.</ref><ref name=Mega-2008-04-03>[http://www.megatv.com/gegonota/shownews.asp?id=31270&cat=1 Mega channel], ΝΑΤΟ: Μόνο με λύση η πρόσκληση (''NATO: Invitation only after solution'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.megatv.com%2Fgegonota%2Fshownews.asp%3Fid%3D31270%26cat%3D1&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 machine translation in English]), retrieved on 2008-04-03.</ref><ref name=NATOdecl>NATO 2008 Bucharest summit, [http://www.summitbucharest.ro/en/doc_202.html Bucharest Summit Declaration Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008] (par.20), Retrieved on 2008-04-13.</ref>

A major concern cited by Greek officials was a number of maps that have circulated by nationalist groups based in Skopje depicting parts of Greece (including Thessaloniki, Greece's second largest city) as being part of a future [[United Macedonia]], and the country's prime minister photographed laying a wreath under such a map just a few weeks before the summit.<ref>Greece, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/280308_alp_1640.htm Interview of FM Ms. Bakoyannis in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, with journalist Michael Martens]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>[[Dora Bakoyannis|Bakoyannis, Dora]], [[Wall Street Journal]], ''[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120701620662579369.html All in a Name]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>''[http://www.greeksoccer.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=235052139&mode=threaded&pid=1052837018 the picture at Greeksoccer.com]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> Also a poster displayed in Skopje just days before the Bucharest summit by an artist replacing the white cross on the [[Flag of Greece|Greek flag]] with the [[swastika]], as a way of comparing modern Greece to [[Nazi Germany]].<ref>[[The Daily Telegraph|Telegraph.co.uk]], [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/02/wmacedonia102.xml Macedonia row overshadows NATO summit]</ref> and caricatures of Greek PM Karamanlis depicted wearing a Nazi SS uniform,<ref>[[International Herald Tribune]], ''[http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/02/europe/EU-GEN-Greece-Macedonia-NATO.php Greece insists Macedonia will not be invited to join NATO if name issue is not resolved]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> led to vigorous Greek diplomatic protests and international condemnation,<ref>[http://www.in.gr/innews/article.asp?lngEntityID=887497 in.gr] Στη «μάχη του Βουκουρεστίου» για το όνομα της ΠΓΔΜ ο Κ.Καραμανλής (''C. Karamanlis to "Bucharest's battle" for FYROM's name'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.in.gr%2Finnews%2Farticle.asp%3FlngEntityID%3D887497&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>[http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_2028157717 News.bg], Olli Rehn Condemns the Language of Hatred Against Greece and Bulgaria in Macedonian Media, retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> although the government disassociated itself from the depictions and expressed it has no connection and no authority over artists' works.<ref>[[BBC News]], [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7324510.stm Greek fury over swastika poster]</ref>

According to media reports, the Greek position was strongly supported by France and Spain. Italy, Portugal, [[Luxembourg]], [[Iceland]], Belgium, Hungary, [[Slovakia]], and the Netherlands also showed understanding to the Greek concerns.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 /><ref>''[[Eleftherotypia]]'', [http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=04.04.2008,id=86594016 Η επιμονή Μπους και η αλληλεγγύη των Ευρωπαίων στην Ελλάδα] (''Bush's insistence and the European support to Greece''), retrieved on 2008-04-05.</ref><ref>''[[Eleftherotypia]]'', [http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint?q=%D3%EA%FC%F0%E9%E1&a=&id=15246048 Αρνηση, χωρίς χρονοδιάγραμμα και με ήπιες αντιδράσεις] (''Refusal, without time frame and with moderate reactions''), retrieved on 2008-04-05.</ref>

The US proposal for inviting the country under its UN provisional reference (FYROM) was backed by [[Turkey]], [[Slovenia]], the Czech Republic, [[Estonia]], [[Lithuania]], Denmark, [[Bulgaria]], and Norway.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 />

Germany, the United Kingdom, and Canada were reported neutral.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 />

According to polls, 95% of Greeks consider that the veto was a correct action, while only 1% oppose it.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=77905 Skai News], Σωστό το βέτο για το 95% (''Veto correct for 95%'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D77905&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> At the same time, Greece maintains its focus on promoting its neighbour's NATO and EU accession as soon as the naming issue is resolved.<ref>[http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080429/COMMENTARY/877032880 Washington Times], In the name of a common future, Retrieved on 2008-04-30.</ref>

===A continuing negotiation===

The [[Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia]] voted on 11 April 2008 to dissolve itself and hold [[Macedonian parliamentary election, 2008|early elections]] within sixty days.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=78540 Skai News], Πρόωρες εκλογές στη ΠΓΔΜ (''Early elections in FYROM'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D78540&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), Retrieved on 2008-04-12.</ref> Following a meeting with the four major parties, president [[Branko Crvenkovski]] announced the continuation of the negotiations for the name, despite the parliament dissolution.<ref name=NegCont>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=78533 Skai News], Συνεχίζονται οι διαπραγματεύσεις (''Negotiations continue'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D78533&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), Retrieved on 2008-04-12.</ref> The parties agreed that the dispute should not be a matter of heavy political debate before the elections.<ref name=NegCont />

Matthew Nimetz visited Skopje on 17 April 2008 and Athens on the following day, initiating a new cycle of negotiations, but without bearing a new proposal yet.<ref name=NegCont />

Talks continued in New York from 30 April to 2 May 2008, though Nimetz again did not propose a new compromise name.<ref>[http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/newsbriefs/setimes/newsbriefs/2008/04/30/nb-03 Southeast European Times], ''Macedonia, Greece continue name dispute talks in New York'', Retrieved on 2008-05-27.</ref>

===The newest proposal and reactions===

According to ethnic Macedonian and Greek media, the main points of the proposal from 8 October 2008 are the following<ref>[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|]], ''[http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/default.asp?ItemID=5C24E9C6AE578B45B4AAB7E8C30E2BE7 Интегралната верзија на предлог-документот од медијаторот Нимиц]'' (Comprehensive version on name-documents by mediator Nimetz), Retrieved on 2008-10-10.</ref>:<ref>[[Ta Nea]], ''[http://www.tanea.gr/default.asp?pid=2&ct=1&artId=1403491 Παράθυρο για διπλή ονομασία]'' (Α window for double naming), Retrieved on 2008-10-10.</ref>

*the name "Republic of Macedonia" will stay the official name inside the country (in the native language)
*the name for the country in all official purposes (i.e. [[United Nations]], [[EU]], [[NATO]]) will be "Republic of North Macedonia" ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: Република Северна Македонија)
*UN Security Council will suggest to third countries to use the name "Republic of North Macedonia" in official bilateral relations
*the name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" will no more be an acceptable name for the country
*"Macedonia" alone cannot be used by any of the two parties as an official name for the country or the region.
*Both parties can use "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" in unofficial settings, with the precondition that they will not claim exclusive rights of any kind.

*the frontpage of the [[Macedonian passport]]s will contain the following names for the country:
**''Republic of North Macedonia'' in English
**''République de Macédoine du Nord'' in French
**''Република Македонија'' in [[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]
*Greece will support the integration of its neighbouring country into [[EU]] and [[NATO]]
*both countries will confirm that they have no territorial claims towards each other

=====Reaction by ethnic Macedonian politicians/diplomats=====

The cabinet of the [[President of the Republic of Macedonia]], [[Branko Crvenkovski]], announced that the Republic of Macedonia wants "serious changes" in the latest proposal and that the presented set of ideas could not be a basis for the resolution of the dispute. Prime minister [[Nikola Gruevski]] agreed with Crvenkovski.<ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=127775&NrIssue=788&NrSection=10 Makfax Online, internet daily newspaper],</ref>

=====Reaction by Greek politicians/diplomats=====

The English edition of the Greek newspaper Kathimerini reported that Greek diplomats, privately, have welcomed the proposals. Greek Foreign Minister [[Dora Bakoyannis]], however, has not yet made a comment on the newest set of proposals. It is also said, that Athens will not state its position before Skopje.<ref>[http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100002_10/10/2008_101178 Kathimerini, English edition]</ref> In the mean time, all major opposition parties have already expressed serious concerns about the proposal since it crosses the "red line" that Greece has set on a single name to be used ''[[erga omnes]]''.<ref>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=945957&lngDtrID=244 in.gr (in Greek)]</ref>

Before either Athens or Skopje had officially responded to the proposal, the Athenian daily ''Ethnos'' published an alleged secret diplomatic correspondence of the [[United States Department of State|US State Department]]. The leaked document, originally tagged as classified until 2018,<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8333&pubid=1738592|title=«Θα τα περάσουμε όλα σιωπηλά» ("We will get everything through quietly")|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> was said to detail a behind-the-scenes deal between Washington and Skopje on the main provisions of the Nimetz proposal as early as July.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8777&pubid=1738591|title=Οι ιδέες ήταν τελικά της Ράις (The ideas were ultimately Rice's)|last=Meletis|first=Nikos|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> According to the newspaper, the latest UN-sponsored set of ideas were secretly sketched to please Skopje by the US Secretary of State [[Condoleezza Rice]] three months earlier.<ref name="Balkan Insight">{{cite news|url=http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14100/|title=Macedonia Denies ‘Secret Work’ with US|date=2008-10-20|work=[[Balkan Insight]]|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref> The report sparked outrage in Greece, with opposition parties accusing the government of tolerating "US interference" in the UN mediation process and calling for Greece's withdrawal from the negotiations.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8333&pubid=1742569|title=Απροκάλυπτη παρέμβαση (Blatant interference)|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> Skopje "strongly and categorically" denied all claims of the existence of a secret deal with Washington.<ref name="Balkan Insight"/>

===The UN International Court of Justice===
In November 2008, Skopje referred Athens to the [[International Court of Justice]] for what it called a "flagrant violation" of Greece's obligations under the 1995 Interim Accord.<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=318&id=480 Republic of Macedonia Ministry of Foreign Affairs: "Greece objected to extending an invitation to Macedonia to join NATO, in flagrant violation of its obligations under the Interim Accord.
</ref> An outcome could take up to five years.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14845/ "BREAKING: Macedonia Takes Greece to World Court"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-actualite/marches/update-macedonia-sues-greece-for-blocking-nato-entry-563320 "UPDATE: Macedonia Sues Greece For Blocking NATO Entry"] ''easybourse.com'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=132181&NrIssue=822&NrSection=10 "Macedonia seeks for justice over Greek veto in ICJ"] ''makfax.com.mk'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref> In response, Greece issued a statement condemning its northern neighbour for "confirming that it is not interested in a solution", adding that "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has itself flagrantly violated a series of fundamental obligations expressly foreseen by the Accord, including the fundamental principle of good neighbourly relations."<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_kathremote_1_17/11/2008_256566|title=Κουμουτσάκος: Η ΠΓΔΜ επιβεβαιώνει ότι δεν ενδιαφέρεται για επίλυση (''Koumoutsakos: FYROM confirms that it is not interested in a solution'')|date=2008-11-17|work=[[Kathimerini]]|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-11-18}}</ref><ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14871/ "Greece Pans Macedonia Over World Court Bid"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[18 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 18/11/08</ref> The prime minister of the Republic of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski announced on 25 November that the "name negotiations resume despite Macedonia’s lawsuit against Greece".<ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1733 Macedonian Government website</ref> The EU has so far not commented on the latest situation.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14879/ "EU Quiet on Macedonia’s World Court Bid"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[18 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 18/11/08</ref>. Reinforcing the Greek position that in the summit of Bucharest there was no veto, on the 21st of November in a conference in Skopje, the Czech representative in NATO Štefan Füle reiterated that there has not been a veto from Greece but a consensus on non-invitation.<ref>http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59315063&lId=2</ref> At the end of November, the Republic of Macedonia appointed [[Zoran Jolevski]] as the new negotiator to the name talks with Greece.<ref>http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=30&vId=59566878&lId=2&title=MACEDONIA+-+FOREIGN+AFFAIRS+</ref>

The Gruevski government's decision to pursue legal action against Athens was criticised by President [[Branko Crvenkovski]], highlighting the internal tensions in Skopje between the government and the presidency. Noting that the process could take years, the president called it a "waste of valuable time", given that there was no way for the World Court to enforce any verdict in Skopje's favour.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_kathremote_1_01/12/2008_258435|title=Τσερβένκοφσκι: Χάσιμο χρόνου η προσφυγή στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο (''Crvenkovski: Recourse to the World Court a waste of time'')|date=2008-12-01|work=[[Kathimerini]]|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-12-01}}</ref>

===Talks in 2009===
The first round of name talks in 2009 took place on 11 February.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=30&vId=62064882&lId=2&title=MACEDONIA+-+FOREIGN+AFFAIRS+ Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> The UN Mediator Nimetz did not propose a new solution for the name row, but it was agreed that talks should continue after elections in Greece and the Republic of Macedonia, probably in July or August.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=62247087&lId=2&pmId=501 Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> Republic of Macedonia's new name negotiator [[Zoran Jolevski]] told the mediator and the Greek negotiator that if the Republic of Macedonia would receive a [[NATO]] membership invitation at the Alliance's next summit in April, this would be positive for the name talks.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=62247087&lId=2&pmId=501 Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> One week before the fresh name talks, Macedonian foreign minister [[Antonio Milošoski]] told [[Germany|German]] newspaper ''"[[die tageszeitung]]"'' that a solution could be found "only on bilateral basis". The Republic of Macedonia indicated it could be ready to allow Greece to use another name for the country, such as ''"Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)"'', however, the Macedonian citizens would decide on a referendum for that.<ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/2273 Macedonian Government web site]</ref> In addition, foreign minister [[Antonio Milošoski]] sent a letter to the Greek foreign ministry with a proposal of forming a joint committee of scholars from both countries who would work on determining the historical facts of the dispute. However, the proposals was rejected by Athens.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=63394599&lId=2 Macedonian Information Agency -Greece rejects FM Milososki's initiative ]</ref>

====CSIS Conference====
On April 14, 2009, at the [[Center for Strategic and International Studies]] Conference on the topic of Completing America's Mission in the Balkans moderated by [[Janusz Bugajski]], the Ambassador of Macedonia H.E. [[Zoran Jolevski]] stated the following <blockquote>
"Greece, in essence, moved the goal posts further away, and our fear is that they will continue to move the goal posts again, and again, and again. The question then becomes, will they stop? Because, dear friends, the dignity and identity of an entire nation is at stake here that cannot be compromised."
</blockquote>

Later on, they moved into an open discussion where the Greek Ambassador in the US [[Alexandros Mallias]] stated that Greece would accept the last proposal by the UN Mediator [[Matthew Nimetz]] which is to Macedonia to be called "Republic of Northern Macedonia" in the international society.<ref>[http://makfax.com.mk/en-us/Details.aspx?ItemID=3097 Makfax News Agency of Macedonia - Greece - Good proposal over name finally on table]</ref>

==Lists of countries and organisations==
===Lists of countries===
World map with countries/entities using Republic of Macedonia or the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

[[Image:MacedoniaNameDisputeMap.svg|thumb|center|650px|List of countries/entities {{legend|yellow|Republic of Macedonia / former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.}} {{legend|#7ca4e0|that use "Republic of Macedonia" in bilateral diplomatic relations.}} {{legend|#E1867C|that use "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes.}} {{legend|#A9A9A9|that have no official position on the issue.}}]]

{{MultiCol}}

====List of countries/entities using "Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes
====List of countries/entities using "Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes====
As of February 2008, up to 125 countries recognise the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.<ref>{{cite web | title = FM Milososki: Name row a result of Greece's desire to protect its myth of pure nation | url = http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/2273 Government of the Republic of Macedonia | quote = the fact that 125 countries in the world have recognised Macedonia's constitutional name is a clear signal that the country has international support }}</ref>

Four of the five permanent [[UN Security Council]] members:
* {{flag|United States of America}} ([[NATO]] and [[G8]] member ): The federal government uses "Republic of Macedonia",<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/26759.htm | title=Background Note: Macedonia | accessdate=2007-09-08}}</ref> while the [[United States Congress|US Congress]] uses the mixed designation "Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)".<ref>NATO {{cite web | url=http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.494.ENR: | title=NATO Freedom Consolidation Act of 2007 (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate) | accessdate = 2007-06-12}}</ref>
* {{flag|United Kingdom}} ([[EU]], NATO and G8 member)<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1019233917528 | title=Country Profiles: Republic of Macedonia | accessdate=2007-09-08}}</ref>
* {{flag|People's Republic of China}}<ref>{{cite web|url=http://english.people.com.cn/english/200106/18/eng20010618_72901.html| title=People's daily |work=China, Macedonia Sign Joint Communique on Normalization of Relations |accessdate=2007-01-02}}</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/974 Government of the Republic of Macedonia]</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = Interview of President of Macedonia, Crvenkovski for Xinhua | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=6&InfoID=3110 web site of the President of Macedonia | quote = China’s recognition and establishment of diplomatic relations with our country under our constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Russia}} (G8 member)<ref>[http://www.mid.ru/zu_r.nsf/e0f3cd1a55ff248dc32571e7003f460b/909fdd5998c7c8c3c32565e800360468?OpenDocument Russian Embassy in the Republic of Macedonia]</ref>

All states formerly part of [[SFR Yugoslavia]]:
* {{flag|Bosnia-Herzegovina}} <ref name="CEFTA">[http://www.stabilitypact.org/trade/Cefta%20Agreement%20Amendment%20of%20and%20Accession%20to%20the%20Central%20European%20Free%20Trade%20Agreement%20-%20Preamble.pdf CEFTA 2006 text, signed by "the Republic of Macedonia" and "the Republic of Montenegro"], ''Stability Pact for Southeast Europe'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Croatia}} (NATO member) <ref name="CEFTA"/><ref>{{cite web | url= http://www.mvpei.hr/MVP.asp?pcpid=13&dmid=127#pocdrz |title=Ministarstvo vanjsklh poslova I europsklh integracija |work= Republika Makedonija - Uspostava diplomatskih odnosa: 30.3.1992 | accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1179 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Kosovo}}<ref name="Kosova">{{cite web|url=http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=57799927&lId=2&pmId=502|title=Hyseni: Kosovo recognizes Macedonia's constitutional name|date=2008-10-13|work=MIA - Macedonian Information Agency|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref>
* {{flag|Montenegro}} <ref name="CEFTA"/>
* {{flag|Serbia}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.rs/Policy/Bilaterala/Macedonia/basic_e.html Republic of Serbia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Slovenia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title=Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Slovenia | work=Macedonia |accessdate=2007-01-02 | url= http://www.mzz.gov.si/index.php?id=539&L=2}}</ref>

In addition, the following countries have also recognised the nation by its constitutional name:
* {{flag|Algeria}}<ref>[http://193.194.78.233/ma_fr/stories.php?story=04/05/19/6156295 Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres - Republique Algerienne Democratique et Populaire]</ref>
* {{flag|Argentina}}<ref>Argentine Ministry of Foreign Affairs ''[http://www.mrecic.gov.ar/portal/repre_argentinas/plantilla.php?id=87&concurrencia=113 Embassy of Macedonia in Sofia, Bulgaria]''</ref>
* {{flag|Austria}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.bmeia.gv.at/aussenministerium/buergerservice/oesterreichische-vertretungen.html?no_cache=1 Diplomatic representation], [http://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/foreign-ministry/foreign-policy/voelkerrecht/treaties-in-german/bilateral-treaties-in-german.html?ADMCMD_view=1&LNG=de&dv_name=Mazedonien&dv_staat=0&mode=country&submit=1&vb_vp_id=261&cHash=19e87fb504 Bilateral agreements]</ref>
* {{flag|Azerbaijan}}<ref>[http://azembassy.com.my/links/index.htm Diplomatic Missions of Azerbaijan]</ref>
* {{flag|Belarus}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.by/ru/about/foreign_missions/ Foreign Diplomatic Missions in Belarus]</ref>
* {{flag|Bolivia}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gov.bo/webmre/documentos/Servicios/d48.htm Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Culture (Bolivia)]</ref>
* {{flag|Botswana}}<ref>[http://www.mofaic.gov.bw/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=207&Itemid=193 Ministry Of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation - Botswana]</ref>
* {{flag|Brunei Darussalam}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.bn/overseas_missions/20070804a.htm Ministry of Foreign Affairs & Trade - Brunei Darussalam]</ref>
* {{flag|Bulgaria}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=BulgRec>[http://www.mfa.bg/bg/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14329&Itemid=382 Bulgarian Ministry of Foreign Affairs], ''Diplomatic Relations - Macedonia.'' Retrieved on 2007-01-25</ref>
* {{flag|Cambodia}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Cambodia | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Cambodia/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Cambodia established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name on 2nd October 1996 }}</ref>
* {{flag|Canada}} (NATO and G8 member) <ref name=CanadianMFA>Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada, ''[http://geo.international.gc.ca/cip-pic/geo/macedonia-en.aspx Country and Regional Information: Macedonia]'', Retrieved on 2007-09-20</ref><ref name=A1News>(Macedonian) A1 News, ''[http://a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=84094 Канада ја призна Македонија под уставното име]'', Retrieved on 2007-09-20</ref>
* {{flag|Chile}}<ref name="Chile = 124th">{{cite web|url=http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1026|title=Macedonia establishes diplomatic relations with Chile under constitutional name|date=2008-09-18|publisher=Government of the Republic of Macedonia|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref><ref>[http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=24202 Foreign Ministry Special Representative tours Latin American countries to brief local governments on the FYROM name issue]</ref>
* {{flag|Costa Rica}}<ref>[http://www.rree.go.cr/promocion/index.php?stp=133 Costa Rican Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Cuba}}<ref>[http://europa.cubaminrex.cu/Actualidad/Breves%20Diplomaticas/2007/Marzo.htm#47 Cuban Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Czech Republic}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=CzechMFA>[http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/mzv/default.asp?id=59730&ido=7904&idj=2&amb=1 Consular department of the Embassy of the Czech Republic in Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Ecuador}}<ref>[http://www.mmrree.gov.ec/mre/documentos/pol_internacional/bilateral/europa_macedonia.htm]</ref>
* {{flag|El Salvador}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gob.sv/sitio/sitiowebrree.nsf/pages/spolext_paisesconrelacionesdiplomaticas Ministry of Foreign Affairs of El Salvador]</ref>
* {{flag|Estonia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=EstonianMFA>[http://www.vm.ee/eng/kat_176/8678.html Estonian government website], Retrieved on 2008-09-13; [http://vlepingud.vm.ee/en/contract_view/2051 Bilateral agreements]</ref>
* {{flag|Honduras}}<ref>[http://www.sre.hn/tramitessj_paises.html]</ref>
* {{flag|Hungary}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.mfa.gov.hu/kulkepviselet/MK/HU | title=Embassy of the Republic of Hungary |work=Skopje Republic of Macedonia | accessdate= 2007-01-20}}</ref><ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59875204&lId=2&pmId=501 Hungary strongly supports Macedonia on name, visa liberalization issues]</ref>
* {{flag|Iceland}} (NATO member)<ref>[http://www.utanrikisraduneyti.is/sendi-og-raedisskrifstofur/erlendar/ Ministry for Foreign Affairs - Iceland]</ref>
* {{flag|India}}<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58069371&lId=2&pmId=501 India uses constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia in bilateral communication]</ref>
* {{flag|Iran}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ir/cms/cms/Tehran/en/Mission/Europe.html Ministry of foreign affairs of Iran]</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = President's meeting with the new ambassadors of Iran, Malaysia, Afghanistan and Iceland | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?InfoID=318&SectionID=10 web site of the President of Macedonia| quote = Iran is among the most influential countries in the region of the Near East, and a country that established diplomatic relations with the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Ireland}} (EU member)<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Ireland | url = http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Europe/Relationships+with+EU+Member+States/Ireland/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Ireland recently decided to use FYROMs constitutional name exclusively for bilateral relations }}</ref>
* {{flag|Kazakhstan}}<ref>[http://portal.mfa.kz/portal/page/portal/mfa/en/content/news/nws2006/2006-09-23 Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Kazakhstan]</ref>
* {{flag|Kuwait}}<ref>{{cite web | title = President Branko Crvenkovski received the letters of credence from the new Ambassadors of Kuwait, Estonia and Portugal | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=2&InfoID=922 President of the Republic of Macedonia web site | quote = Kuwait was among the first countries from the Gulf to have established diplomatic relations with the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Kyrgyzstan}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.kg/diplomatic-missions-in-kr/dip-in-kr-3_kg.html Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Kyrgyz Republic]</ref>
* {{flag|Laos}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Laos | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Laos/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Laos established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name on 6 March 1996 }}</ref>
* {{flag|Liechtenstein}}<ref>[http://www.liechtenstein.li/en/pdf-fl-staat-aussenpolitik-multilateral-dipl-vertretungen.pdf Diplomatic Missions to the Principality of Liechtenstein]</ref>
*{{flag|Lithuania}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name="veremis"/><ref>[http://www.urm.lt/index.php?679327484 Bilateral treaties], [http://www.urm.lt/popup2.php?tmpl_name=m_urm_lt_embassy&m_urm_country_id=59 Diplomatic mission],[http://www.urm.lt/popup2.php?tmpl_name=m_urm_for_embassy&m_urm_country_id=70 Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia] (accessed 3 October 2008)</ref>
* {{flag|Malaysia}}<ref>[http://www.kln.gov.my/?m_id=1&c_id=72&s_id=43 Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Malaysia]</ref><ref>[http://www.kln.gov.my/perwakilan/bucharest/news/1190 Embassy of Malaysia, Bucharest]</ref>
* {{flag|Maldives}}<ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.mv/v2/menu.php?menu=3&submenu=Bilateral%20Relations Republic of Maldives - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Moldova}} <ref name=MoldRec>[http://www.stabilitypact.org/trade/fta-mou/mol-mac.pdf Free Trade Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Moldova and the Government of the Republic of Macedonia], ''Stability Pact for Southeast Europe'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Mongolia}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.mn/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=85&lang=en Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Mongolia]</ref>
* {{flag|Morocco}} <ref name=MFA-Morocco>[http://www.maec.gov.ma/fr/fiche.asp?num=3720 Exchange of letters concerning the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries] Moroccan Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Retrieved on 2008-10-01</ref>
* {{flag|Myanmar}} (Burma)<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Burma | url = http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Burma/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Burma has established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Nauru}}<ref>[http://www.un.int/nauru/foreignaffairs.html Department of Foreign Affairs - Republic of Nauru]</ref>
* {{flag|Nepal}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.np/diplomaticaz.php Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Nepal]</ref>
* {{flag|Nigeria}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ng/newsitem34.html Ministry of foreign affairs of Nigeria]</ref>
* {{flag|Oman}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.om/mofa/bilateral_continent.asp?cont=6 Sultanate of Oman - Ministry of Foreign Affairs using 'republic of macedonia']</ref>
* {{flag|Paraguay}} <ref name=DW>[http://www.deutsche-welle.de/dw/article/0,2144,2858800,00.html Deutsche Welle], Retrieved on 2008-09-22</ref>
* {{flag|Poland}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.msz.gov.pl/Polish,Missions,Abroad,2143.html?PHPSESSID=fe037956eab58817a34e2f3280fc37ff Polish Missions Abroad]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-12</ref><ref>Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.msz.gov.pl/M-S,2147.html?PHPSESSID=fe037956eab58817a34e2f3280fc37ff Foreign Embassies in Poland]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58537761&lId=2&pmId=501 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Qatar}}<ref>[http://english.mofa.gov.qa/details_consul.cfm?Id=394&type=local Embassy of Republic of Macedonia in The state of Qatar]</ref>
* {{flag|Romania}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=FMoR>[http://www.mae.ro/index.php?unde=doc&id=158&idlnk=5&cat=6 Romanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, The Romanian Missions], Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref><ref>[http://www.mae.ro/index.php?unde=doc&id=1170&idlnk=5&cat=6 Romanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Foreign Missions], Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref><ref>[http://skopje.mae.ro/index.php?lang=ro&id=14871 Romanian Embassy in the Republic of Macedonia] Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref>
* {{flag|Saint Kitts and Nevis}}<ref>[http://gip.gov.kn/ct.asp?xItem=237&ctNode=215&mp=6 St. Christopher (St. Kitts) and Nevis, Ministry of F. Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Saint Lucia}}<ref>[http://www.stlucia.gov.lc/faq/do_i_need_a_visa_to_enter_saint_lucia.htm#Require_Visas List of countries which need visa]</ref>
* {{flag|Saudi Arabia}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=4173&InNewsItemID=36770 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref><ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=3985&InNewsItemID=70063 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Singapore}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Singapore | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Singapore/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 8 May 1995 Singapore established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Slovakia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>[http://www.mfa.sk/zu/index/podstranka.php?id=1401 Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Slovak Republic - Bilateral Relations - Republic of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Sovereign Military Order of Malta}}<ref>[http://www.orderofmalta.org/site/attdiplomatica.asp?idlingua=5 Order of Malta - Bilateral relations with countries]</ref>
* {{flag|Sri Lanka}}<ref>[http://www.slmfa.gov.lk//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=1 Sri Lanka Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Sweden}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/5616#M Government Offices of Sweden - Embassies and consulates]</ref>
* {{flag|Switzerland}}<ref>[http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/reps/eur/vmkd/embsko.html Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Switzerland]</ref>
* {{flag|Thailand}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Thailand | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Thailand/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 23 January 2005 Thailand established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Turkey}} (NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title=NATO Update - Week of 9-15 June 1999 | accessdate=2007-09-18 | url= http://www.nato.int/docu/update/1999/0609e.htm}}</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.tr/turkey_s-political-relations-with-republic-of-macedonia.en.mfa Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Ukraine}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/ua/publication/content/1779.htm Ambassador of the Republic of Macedonia to Ukraine]</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1455 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Uzbekistan}}<ref>[http://mfa.uz/eng/inter_cooper/uzbekistan_countries/countries_eu/uzb_macedonia/ Relations between Uzbekistan and Macedonia - Ministry o. F. Affairs of the Republic of Uzbekistan]</ref>
* {{flag|Vietnam}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.vn/en/cn_vakv/euro/nr040819111555/ns070919140054 Vietnam-Macedonia relations] Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Vietnam | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Vietnam/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 10 June 1994, Vietnam established diplomatic links with FYROM under its constitutional name}}</ref>

{{ColBreak}}

====List of countries/entities using "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes====
* {{flag|Australia}} <ref name=AUmfa>Australian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.dfat.gov.au/missions/countries/mk.html Australian Consulate in Skopje, Macedonia, Former Yugoslav Republic of]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Bahrain}}<ref name="Bahrain MFA">{{cite web|url=http://www.mofa.gov.bh/MOFA/En/DeplomaticMission/InternationalRelations6.htm|title=International Relations|publisher=Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Kingdom of Bahrain|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
* {{flag|Belize}}<ref name="Belize MFA">{{cite web|url=http://mfa.gov.bz/library/bze_treaties/bi_lateral.php|title=Index of Belize's Treaties|publisher=Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Belize|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
* {{flag|Belgium}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=BMFA>Federal Public Service: Foreign Affairs: [http://www.diplomatie.be/en/addresses/abroad/otherpostsdetail.asp?POSTE_ID=404 MACEDOINE (EX-REP. YOUGOSLAVE DE)], Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Cyprus}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.cy/mfa/embassies/embassy_doha.nsf/DMLfaq_en/DMLfaq_en?OpenDocument Embassy of the Republic of Cyprus in Doha - Visa Applications]2008-04-15</ref>
* {{flag|France}} (EU, NATO, G8 and permanent UN Security Council member)<ref>Base Pacte - Archives of the French Republic,''[http://www.doc.diplomatie.gouv.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/DDD/19930261.pdf Agreement by exchange of letters establishing diplomatic relations between the Government of the French Republic and the Government of the Republic of Macedonia]'', Retrieved on 2008-04-04</ref><ref> French Ministry of Foreign Affairs, france-ancienne-republique-yougoslave-macedoine page</ref><ref>''[http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/pays-zones-geo_833/macedoine-arym_442/france-ancienne-republique-yougoslave-macedoine_1177/relations-politiques_4744/relations-politiques_12153.html]''</ref>
* {{flag|Germany}} (EU, NATO and G8 member) <ref name=GermanMFA>German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, {{de icon}} ''[http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/de/Laenderinformationen/01-Laender/Mazedonien.html Ehemalige jugoslawische Republik Mazedonien]'', Retrieved on 2008-04-15</ref>
* {{flag|Greece}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=GrFA> {{cite web | url= http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/FYROM+-+THE+NAME+ISSUE.htm|title=Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=17 July 2006 | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) — The Name Issue | publisher= | pages= | language=English }}</ref>
* {{flag|Italy}} (EU, NATO and G8 member) <ref name=ItFA> {{cite web | url= http://www.esteri.it/MAE/Templates/SediTemplate.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b90144702-199C-47DD-8FA5-97139E541E48%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMAE%2fEN%2fMinistero%2fRappresentanze%2f&NRCACHEHINT=Guest | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=29 April 2009 | work=Ex Repubblica Jugoslavia Di Macedonia(FYROM) — Embassies and Consulates | publisher= | pages= | language=English<//ref>
* {{flag|Latvia}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=LatvianMFA>[http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/policy/bilateral-relations/4542/Macedonia/ Relations Between Latvia and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|Luxembourg}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=LuxembourgMFA>[http://www.mae.lu/images/biblio/biblio-42-1_vcxuu_660_3156_265.pdf Missions diplomatiques étrangères accréditées au Luxembourg], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Mexico}}<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.sre.gob.mx/csocial/contenido/comunicados/2008/oct/cp_298.html|title=Encuentro entre el Subsecretario Juan Manuel Gómez Robledo y el Sr. Yannis Valinakis, Viceministro de Asuntos Exteriores de Grecia|date=2008-10-17|publisher=México - Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores|language=[[Spanish language|Spanish]]|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref> (Mexico withdrew recognition of constitutional name Oct 2008)<ref name=MexicoWithdraw>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14140/ Mexico withdraws recognition of constitutional name], Retrieved on 2008-10-22</ref>
* {{flag|Micronesia}} <ref name=MicroMFA>[http://www.fsmgov.org/diprel.html Countries With Which the Federated States of Micronesia Has Established Diplomatic Relations], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Monaco}}<ref name=MonacoMFA>[http://www.diplomatie.gouv.mc/315Diplomatie/wwwnew.nsf/1909$/afaad54691d027abc125746a004c1e8agb?OpenDocument&2Gb Macédoine], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|New Zealand}}<ref name="New Zealand">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/New+Zealand/|title=New Zealand|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|quote=...regarding the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia it recognizes Skopje under the name accepted in recent years by the United Nations.|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
*{{flag|South Africa}} <ref name=DSA>Department of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.dfa.gov.za/foreign/bilateral/fyrom.html FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)]'', Retrieved on 2008-02-15</ref>
* {{flag|Spain}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=SpanishMFA>Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, {{es icon}} ''[http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/ArbolPaises/Macedonia_Falsa/Informacion%20Relacionada/Paginas/relacMacedonia.aspx Ex-República Yugoslava De Macedonia (ERYM)]'', Retrieved on 2007-07-24, [http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/ArbolPaises/ARYMacedonia/Recomendaciones%20de%20viaje/Paginas/recoMacedonia.aspx Antigua-República Yugoslava de Macedonia (ARYM)], Retrieved on 2008-07-24, also uses "A.R.Y. Macedonia"[http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/Paginas/informacion_representaciones.aspx].</ref>
* {{flagicon|Vatican City}} The [[Holy See]] <ref name=HolySee>[http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_20010123_holy-see-relations_en.html Bilateral and multilateral relations of the Holy See]</ref>

====List of countries/entities to be sorted====
* {{flag|Albania}} (NATO member) <ref name=AlbFC>The Albanian Foreign Service,>''[http://www.km.gov.al/index.php?fq=brenda&r=&gj=gj2&kid=26 Embassy of the Republic of Albania in F.Y.R.O.M]'', Retrieved on 2008-07-25</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=125105&NrIssue=767&NrSection=20 Makfax - Internet Daily Newspaper]</ref><ref>"[http://www.km.gov.al/index.php?fq=brenda&m=news&lid=9240 Premier Berisha receives Deputy Premier of Macedonia, Abdilaqim Ademi]"</ref>
* {{flag|Brazil}} <ref name=BrazilianMFA>[http://www.brazil-bg.info/consulate.html Embassy of Brazil in Bulgaria], Retrieved on 2008-09-14</ref><ref>[http://www.abe.mre.gov.br/mundo/america-do-norte/estados-unidos-da-america/chicago/servicos/visas/countries-that-require-visa-to-brazil/ Countries That Require Visa to Brazil], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
*{{flag|Democratic Republic of the Congo}}<ref name="congo">According to Greek sources, Congo announced on 18 October 2008 that it would use the term ''Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'' ({{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/201008_H2015.htm|title=Announcement regarding attempts by FYROM's Foreign Ministry to disseminate misinformation regarding Panama, Mexico and Congo’s stance on the name issue|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-21}}). Macedonian sources denied the statement, citing a Congolese statement that Congo's position had remained unchanged ({{cite web|url=http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14279/|title=Congo: the Latest in Macedonia Name Row|publisher=Balkaninsight|accessdate=2008-10-24}}, {{cite web|url=http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58101452&lId=2&pmId=501|title=DR Congo doesn’t change position on using Macedonia’s constitutional name|publisher=MIA|accessdate=2008-10-24}}), {{cite web|url=http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/4116/1/|title=Greek Government caught lying to their public, again|publisher=MINA|accessdate=2008-10-24}})</ref>
* {{flag|Czech Republic}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=CzechMFA>[http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/mzv/default.asp?id=59730&ido=7904&idj=2&amb=1 Consular department of the Embassy of the Czech Republic in Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Denmark}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=DanishMFA>[http://www.um.dk/en/servicemenu/contact/missionsabroad/missionsabroadm.htm MISSIONS ABROAD], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref> <ref name=DanishMFA1>[http://www.um.dk/en/menu/developmentpolicy/danishdevelopmentpolicycountries/theneighbourhoodprogramme/countries/macedoniafyrom DANISH ASSISTANCE TO MACEDONIA (FYROM) UNDER THE NEIGHBOURHOOD PROGRAMME OF THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF DENMARK], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Dominican Republic}}<ref name=DominicanMFA>"[http://www.serex.gov.do/AsuntosConsulares/AsuntosConsulares/visas.htm?mid=9060 LISTADO DE PAISES Y SU CONDICION DE ENTRADA A LA REPUBLICA DOMINICANA]", Retrieved on 2008-09-18 </ref><ref name=DominicanMFA2>[http://www.serex.gov.do/serex%20informa/SerexNo.08.pdf "Serex"], Retrieved on 2008-09-18 </ref>
*{{flag|Egypt}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.eg/MFA_Portal/Templates/Alpha_Search_Plus_Results.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b93D47EB3-6273-4215-B383-824EAE08F119%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMFA_Portal%2fen-GB%2fMissions%2fForeign_Missions_in_Egypt%2f&NRCACHEHINT=Guest Foreign Missions in Egypt (English)]2008-09-26</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.eg/MFA_Portal/Templates/Alpha_Search_Plus_Results.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID={9FDED96F-947B-4B89-B9BD-C30094153629}&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMFA_Portal%2ffr-FR%2fMissions%2fForeign_Missions_in_Egypt%2fDefault.htm&NRCACHEHINT=Guest Foreign Missions in Egypt (French)]</ref>
* {{flag|Finland}} (EU member)<ref name="Ministry for Foreign Affairs of Finland">[http://formin.finland.fi/public/default.aspx?nodeid=17382&culture=en-US&contentlan=2 Macedonia], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|Guatemala}}<ref>[http://www.minex.gob.gt/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2053&Itemid=132 Guatemalan Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref><ref>"[http://www.minex.gob.gt/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1517&Itemid=105 Macedonia, Embajada de la Antigua Républica Yugoslava de]"</ref>
* {{flag|Indonesia}}<ref>[http://www.deplu.go.id/?hotnews_id=1431 Department of Foreign Affairs - Indonesia]</ref><ref>[http://www.deplu.go.id/?category_id=13&country_id=105&bilateral=eropatimur Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref><ref>[http://www.indonesia.hu/ Embassy of Indonesia in Hungary]</ref>
* {{flag|Japan}} (G8 member)<ref>[http://www.mofa.go.jp/about/emb_cons/protocol/i-p.html List of Embassies and Consulates-General in Japan], 2008-09-15</ref><ref>[http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/macedonia/index.html Japan-Macedonia Relations], Retrieved on 2008-09-15</ref>
* {{flag|Lesotho}}<ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.ls/missions/show_missions.php?Country=Italy LESOTHO MISSIONS ABROAD], 2008-09-16</ref><ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.ls/services/default.php CONSULAR SERVICES], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Netherlands}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=NLFA>Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, [http://www.mfa.nl/en/europe?continent=europe Missions Abroad], Retrieved on 2007-12-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.nl/sko Embassy of the Netherlands in Skopje]</ref><ref>[http://www.minbuza.nl/nl/ontwikkelingssamenwerking/wereldkaart/landenAZ,Macedonie.html Country profile- Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Norway}} (NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title = PM Gruevski: Name negotiations resume despite Macedonia’s lawsuit against Greece| url = http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1733 Macedonian Government web site | quote = Norway, which has not recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, will however always use it in the bilateral relations }}</ref>
* {{flag|Panama}}<ref name="Athens refutes Skopje">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/201008_H2015.htm|title=Announcement regarding attempts by FYROM's Foreign Ministry to disseminate misinformation regarding Panama, Mexico and Congo’s stance on the name issue|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref><ref name="Skopje refutes Athens">{{cite web|url=http://mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=318&id=469|title=REACTION TO THE GREEK SPECULATIONS REGARDING THE USE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL NAME OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA BY THIRD COUNTRIES|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref>
* {{flag|Peru}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/boletinInf.nsf/afdaa58f9a4dc40605256e160070d8a9/9aeab09b21d6ad910525735c0070e1b5?OpenDocument]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/aconsular.nsf/0/9F10D80FD06FFF0405256E38005537D3?OpenDocument]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/Pbilateral.nsf/9DAA604E1B36B559052574790061BE01/$FILE/MACEDONIA.pdf]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/Tratados.nsf/6e698a2aa7c4dd6805256e680056dec7/1eb8ad5549e7d00b052571cc00532453?OpenDocument Visa Agreement between the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and Peru]</ref>
* {{flag|Portugal}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=Portugal>http://www.portugal.gov.pt/portal/pt/directorio/europa Conselho da Europa - Antiga República Jugoslava da Macedónia]</ref><ref>[http://antigo.mdn.gov.pt/Defesa/Operacoes/macedonia.htm]</ref><ref>[http://srec.azores.gov.pt/dre/alunos/Basico_DEPEB/ProgramasEspecificos/Prog%20Cidadania%20e%20Mundo%20Actual.pdf]</ref>

====List of countries/entities that do not use either appellation consistently====
The following states have inconsistent official references to the country, using both names:
* {{flag|Israel}} <ref name=IsraeliMFA>Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Sherut/IsraeliAbroad/Continents/Europe/ Europe], Retrieved on 2007-12-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Treaties/Israel+Bilateral+agreements/ Bilateral agreements]</ref><ref>[http://mexico-city.mfa.gov.il/mfm/Web/main/document.asp?documentid=109765 Ambassador accredited to Macedonia]</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Sherut/IsraeliAbroad/Continents/Europe/FYROM/]</ref>

The following countries/entities have no diplomatic relations with the state<ref>[http://mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=310 List of countries with which Republic of Macedonia have bilateral relations]</ref>: [[Andorra]], [[Bahamas]], [[Bangladesh]], [[Barbados]], [[Bhutan]], [[Botswana]], [[Fiji]], [[Georgia (country)|Georgia]], [[Grenada]], [[Guyana]], [[Kiribati]], [[Lebanon]], [[Liberia]], [[Mali]], [[Malta]], [[Namibia]], [[Palau]], [[Palestinian Authority]], [[Papua New Guinea]], [[Philippines]],
[[Republic of China]] ([[Taiwan]]), [[Sahrawi Republic]], [[Saint Kitts and Nevis]], [[San Marino]], [[Solomon Islands]], [[South Korea]], [[Syria]], [[Tonga]], [[Trinidad and Tobago]], [[Tunisia]], [[Tuvalu]] and [[Zimbabwe]].
{{EndMultiCol}}

====List of international organisations====

The following international organisations use the reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (or a variant thereof) in their official proceedings:

*[[United Nations]],<ref name=un>{{cite web| url=http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm | title=United Nations | work=Admission of the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations | dateformat = mdy| accessdate=17 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[European Union]],<ref name= eu>{{cite web | url= http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/the_former_yugoslav_republic_of_macedonia/index_en.htm | title= European Union | work= European Commission, Enlargement, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | dateformat = mdy |accessdate=September, 5 2006}}</ref>
*[[NATO]],<ref name=NATO>{{cite web | url= http://www.nato.int/issues/enlargement/index.html | title=NATO |work=Enlargement |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[International Monetary Fund]],<ref name=IMF>{{cite web | url= http://www.imf.org/external/country/MKD/index.htm| title= International Monetary Fund |work=former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and the IMF |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[World Trade Organization]],<ref name=WTO>{{cite web| url=http://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/macedonia_e.htm | title= World Trade Organization | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) and the WTO |dateformat = mdy | accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[International Olympic Committee]],<ref name=IOC>{{cite web | title=International Olympic Committee |work=Olympic Committee of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | url= http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisation/noc/noc_uk.asp?noc_initials=MKD|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[World Bank]],<ref name=WB>{{cite web | title=World Bank | work= Countries & Regions | url= http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/0,,pagePK:180619~theSitePK:136917,00.html|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[European Bank for Reconstruction and Development]],<ref name=EBRD>{{cite web| title=European Bank for Reconstruction and Development | work=ebrd and fyr Macedonia | url= http://www.ebrd.com/country/country/mace/index.htm EBRD |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe]],<ref name=OSCE>{{cite web | title=The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe |work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia admitted to OSCE | url= http://www.osce.org/item/16032.html|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[FIFA]],<ref name=fifa>{{cite web |url= http://www.fifa.com/en/organisation/confederations/associationdetails/0,1483,MKD,00.html?countrycode=MKD| title=FIFA Organisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[UEFA]].<ref name=uefa>{{cite web |url= http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/countries/association=59205| title=UEFAOrganisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[FIBA]].<ref name=fiba>{{cite web |url= http://www.fibaeurope.com/Default.asp?nfID=2604| title=FIBA Organisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>

==Greek position==
The constitutional name of the country "Republic of Macedonia" and the short name "Macedonia" when referring to the country, can be considered offensive by most [[Greeks]], especially inhabitants of the [[provinces of Greece|Greek province]] of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]. The Greek government officially uses the term "Slavomacedonian" to describe both the language and a member of the ethnic group, and the [[United Nations]]' provisional reference for the country (''"the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"'') by the main international organisations, including the [[United Nations]].<ref name=un>{{cite web| url=http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm | title=United Nations | work=Admission of the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations | dateformat = mdy| accessdate=17 July 2006}}</ref> The official reasons for this, as described by the [[Foreign relations of Greece|Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs]], are:

{{quotation|
"The choice of the name Macedonia by FYROM directly raises the issue of usurpation of the cultural heritage of a neighbouring country. The name constitutes the basis for staking an exclusive rights claim over the entire geographical area of Macedonia. More specifically, to call only the Slavo-Macedonians Macedonians monopolizes the name for the Slavo-Macedonians and creates semiological confusion, whilst violating the human rights and the right to self-determination of Greek Macedonians. The use of the name by FYROM alone may also create problems in the trade area, and subsequently become a potential springboard for distorting reality, and a basis for activities far removed from the standards set by the European Union and more specifically the clause on good neighbourly relations. The best example of this is to be seen in the content of school textbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia."<ref name=GrFA />
}}

The current leader of the major opposition party, [[PASOK]], [[George Papandreou, junior|George Papandreou]] has stated that "in January 2002, when he was [[Minister for Foreign Affairs (Greece)|Minister for Foreign Affairs]], was next to a deal with Skopje leadership about using the name "Горна Македонија" ("Gorna Makedonija" - "Upper Macedonia" in Slavic). The other parties and the [[List of Presidents of Greece|President]] of the Republic, he said, were informed but the solution process didn't work, because the [[2001 Macedonia conflict|Tetovo crisis]] broke out."<ref name= Gorna>{{el icon}} {{cite web| title=Eleftherotypia |work=George's "No" to Nimitz proposals | url= http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=13.04.2005,id=42766704 |accessdate= 2007-06-25}}</ref>

The Greek concerns can be analyzed as follows:

===Historical concerns===
{| class="infobox bordered" style="width: 250px; font-size: 90%; float: right;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"
|[[Image:Macedon431bcpriortoExpansions.png|244px]]
|[[Image:LocationMacedonia-HEL-1-z.png|244px]]
|-
|Ancient [[Macedon]] before expansion into Thracian and Illyrian territories.
|Modern [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] in Greece.
|-
|colspan="2" align="center" |[[Image:Macedonia and the Aegean World c.200.png|244px]]
|-
|colspan="2" align="center" | Kingdom of Macedon under Philip V.
|}

Greeks argue that the name Macedonia is historically inseparably associated with Greek culture, ever since the ancient kingdom of [[Macedon]] and the [[ancient Macedonians]]. They therefore consider that only Greeks have a historical right to use the name today, since the modern southern [[Slavs]] arrived 1,000 years after that kingdom, lacking any relation to Macedon or its Greek culture.<ref name=GrFA> {{cite web | url= http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/FYROM+-+THE+NAME+ISSUE.htm|title=Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=17 July 2006 | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) — The Name Issue | publisher= | pages= | language=English }}</ref>. Efforts by ethnic Macedonians to construct a narrative of ethnic continuity linking them to the ancient Macedonians in various ways<ref name="mkukemb">{{cite web| url= http://www.macedonianembassy.org.uk/history.html | title= Official site of the Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia in London | work= An outline of Macedonian history from Ancient times to 1991 | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=19 October 2006 }}</ref> and symbolic actions underlining such claims, such as the public use of the [[Vergina sun]] symbol as a flag of the Republic of Macedonia, or the renaming of [[Skopje Airport]] to "Alexander the Great Airport"<ref>{{cite web| title=Kathimerini |work=A stir over name of Skopje’s airport | url= http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100006_29/12/2006_78322 |accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref> meet strong criticism from the Greek side, much of the international media that report on the issue, and even from moderate political views in the Republic of Macedonia itself.<ref>[[Kiro Gligorov]], first president of the Republic of Macedonia: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century[...]we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians". (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, 26 February 1992, p. 35) - "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia[...]Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)". (Toronto Star, 15 March 1992</ref><ref>Gyordan Veselinov, diplomat of the Republic of Macedonia: "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian[...]There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country". (Ottawa Citizen, 24 February 1999)</ref><ref>Denko Maleski, foreign minister of the Republic of Macedonia from 1991 to 1993, and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997: "The idea that [[Alexander the Great]] belong to us, was at the mind of some outsider political groups only! These groups were insignificant the first years of our independence but the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimate themselves through their history. In Balkans, if you want to be recognised as a nation, you need to have history of 3000 years old. So since you made us to invent a history, we invent it! [...] You forced us to the arms of the extreme nationalists who today claim that we are direct descendants of Alexander the Great!" (In an interview for Greek TV channel [[Mega Channel|Mega]], November 2006)</ref>.

Some Greek historians emphasise the late emergence of a "Macedonian" nation, often pointing to 1944 as the date of its "artificial" creation under [[Josip Broz Tito]], discounting earlier roots in the 19th and early 20th century<ref>[[Loring Danforth]], ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'', [http://www.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0691043566&id=ZmesOn_HhfEC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&ots=Eb0bBzHBQT&dq=macedonism&sig=LO82EJ_vsHIAzByUF4dUWNNRjd4#PPA56,M1 p. 56]</ref>.

The Greek view also stresses that the name Macedonia as a geographical term historically used to refer typically to the southern, Greek parts of the region, and not or only marginally to the territory of today's Republic. They also note that the territory was not called Macedonia as a political entity until 1944.

{{clear}}

===Territorial concerns===
[[Image:Ethnicmacedonia.jpg|thumb|250px|The region of Macedonia as perceived by ethnic Macedonian irredentists. Some ethnic Macedonian nationalists, including at official level have expressed irredentist claims to what they refer to as "Aegean Macedonia" (Greece), "Pirin Macedonia" ([[Bulgaria]]), "Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo" ([[Albania]]), and "Gora and Prohor Pchinski" ([[Serbia]]) despite the fact that ethnic [[Greeks]], [[Bulgarians]], [[Albanians]] and [[Serbs]] form the majority of the population of each region respectively. These fringe groups have received no official encouragement from the government of the Republic of Macedonia since 1995 when they agreed to remove all territorial claims to neighbouring countries' territories from their constitution, but the United Macedonia concept is still found among official sources in the Republic, and taught in schools through school textbooks and through other governmental publications.]]

{{main|United Macedonia|Aegean Macedonia}}

During the [[Greek Civil War]], in 1947 the Greek Ministry of Press and Information published a book, Ἡ ἐναντίον τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἐπιβουλή (''Designs on Greece''), namely of documents and speeches on the ongoing Macedonian issue, many translations from Yugoslav officials. It reports [[Josip Broz Tito]] using the term "[[Aegean Macedonia]]" on 11 October 1945 in the build up to the Greek Civil War; the original document is archived in ‘GFM A/24581/G2/1945’. For Athens in 1947, the “new term, Aegean Macedonia”, (also “Pirin Macedonia”), was introduced by Yugoslavs. Contextually, this observation indicates this was part of the Yugoslav offensive against Greece, laying claim to Greek Macedonia, but Athens does not seem to take issue with the term itself. The 1945 date concurs with Bulgarian sources.

Tito's wartime representative to Macedonia, General Tempo (Svetozar Vukmanovic), is credited with promoting the usage of the new regional names of the Macedonian region for irredentist purposes. Concerns over territorial implications of the usage of the term "Macedonian" were expressed as early as 1944 by US diplomats.<ref>U.S STATE DEPARTMENT, Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/ 26 December 1944)</ref>

Greece suspects that the Republic of Macedonia has [[United Macedonia|territorial ambitions]] in the northern [[Macedonia (Greece)|Greek provinces of Macedonia]]. This has been a Greek concern for decades; as far back as 1957, the Greek government expressed concern about reported Yugoslav ambitions to create an "independent" People's Republic of Macedonia with the Greek city of [[Thessaloniki]] as its capital.<ref name=Times>Greek Macedonia "not a problem", ''The Times'' (London), 5 August 1957</ref>

[[Loring Danforth|Loring M. Danforth]] ascribes the goal of a "free, united, and independent Macedonia" including "liberated" Bulgarian and Greek territory to a fraction of extreme Macedonian nationalists, whereas more moderate ethnic Macedonians recognise the inviolability of the borders but regard the presence of ethnic Macedonians in the neighbouring countries as an issue of minority protection.<ref name=Danforth>{{cite book| title=How can a woman give birth to one Greek and one Macedonian? | url= http://www.gate.net/~mango/How_can_a_woman_give_birth.htm | work=The construction of national identity among immigrants to Australia from Northern Greece | first=Loring M. | last= Danforth | accessdate= 2007-01-02 }}</ref>

Greek analysts<ref> Floudas, Demetrius Andreas; {{cite web |publisher= in: Kourvetaris et al (eds.), ''The New Balkans'', East European Monographs: Columbia University Press, 2002, p. 85 |url=http://www.intersticeconsulting.com/documents/FYROM.pdf | title= "Pardon? A Name for a Conflict? FYROM's Dispute with Greece Revisited”|format=PDF}} </ref> and politicians<ref name="dora_iht">Dora Bakoyannis, [http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/31/opinion/edbakoy.php Macedonia and NATO: The View From Athens], International Herald Tribune, 31 March 2008.</ref> have expressed concerns that western observers tend to overlook or not to understand the severity of the perceived territorial threat and tend to misunderstand the conflict as a trivial issue over just a name.

The concerns are further reinforced by the fact that extremist ethnic Macedonian [[nationalist]]s of the "[[United Macedonia]]" movement have expressed [[irredentist]] claims to what they refer to as "[[Greek Macedonia|Aegean Macedonia]]" (in Greece),<ref name=Times /><ref name="Patrides">Patrides, Greek Magazine of Toronto, September — October, 1988, p. 3.</ref><ref name="Currency">{{cite news| first=Marlise |last=Simons |title=As Republic Flexes, Greeks Tense Up |date=3 February 1992 |publisher=New York Times | url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE0DD103CF930A35751C0A964958260 }} </ref> ''"[[Pirin Macedonia]]"'' (in [[Bulgaria]]),<ref name="Bulgaria">{{cite web | last = Lenkova | first = M. | coauthors = Dimitras, P., Papanikolatos, N., Law, C. (eds) | title =Greek Helsinki Monitor: Macedonians of Bulgaria | work = Minorities in Southeast Europe | publisher =Greek Helsinki Monitor, Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe — Southeast Europe |year=1999 | url = http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF | format = pdf | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 24 July 2006}}</ref> "[[Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo]]" (in [[Albania]]),<ref name="Albania">{{cite web| url= http://www.florina.org/html/2003/2003_osce_albania.html | title=Rainbow — Vinozhito political party | work=The Macedonian minority in Albania | dateformat = mdy| accessdate= 22 July 2006}}</ref> and ''"[[Gora (region)|Gora]] and [[Prohor Pchinski]]"'' (in [[Serbia]]).<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.makedonija.info/info.html|title=Makedonija — General Information|dateformat = mdy|accessdate=22 July 2006}}</ref>

Greek Macedonians, Bulgarians, Albanians and Serbs form the overwhelming majority of the population of each part of the region respectively.

Schoolbooks and official government publications in the Republic have shown the country as part of an unliberated whole.<ref name=MkTimes>''The Macedonian Times'', semi-governmental monthly periodical, Issue number 23, July-August 1996:14, Leading article: Bishop Tsarknjas</ref><ref name=Booklets>''Facts About the Republic of Macedonia'' - annual booklets since 1992, Skopje, Republic of Macedonia Secretariat of Information, Second edition, 1997, ISBN 9989-42-044-0. p.14. 2 August 1944.</ref><ref name=MIA>[http://www.mia.com.mk MIA (Macedonian Information Agency)], ''[http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:bV_xiNmQMRYJ:205.217.154.67/world/macedonia+MACEDONIA+MARKS+30TH+ANNIVERSARY+OF+DIMITAR+MITREV'S+DEATH&hl=en&gl=gr&ct=clnk&cd=1&lr=lang_en Macedonia marks 30th anniversary of Dimitar Mitrev's death]'', Skopje, 24 February 2006</ref><ref name=UKMKemb>{{cite web| url= http://www.macedonianembassy.org.uk/history.html | title= Official site of the Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia in London | work= An outline of Macedonian history from Ancient times to 1991 | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=19 October 2006 }}</ref>
{{clear}}

===Self-determination===
[[Image:Apogevmatini Macedonians.gif|thumb|250px|right|[[Apogevmatini]] headline quoting Prime Minister [[Kostas Karamanlis]]: "I am a Macedonian, as are two and a half million Greeks."]]
{{seealso|Macedonians (Greek)|Greek Struggle for Macedonia|Demographic history of Macedonia}}

According to both the official Greek position<ref name=GrFA /> and various public manifestations in Greece<ref>Liotta, P. H. and Simons, A. ''[http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/parameters/98winter/liotta.htm Thicker than Water? Kin, Religion, and Conflict in the Balkans]'', from ''Parameters'', Winter 1998, pp. 11-27.</ref> and the [[Greek diaspora]],<ref name="theaustralianpeople">[[James Jupp|Jupp, J.]] ''The Australian People: An Encyclopedia of the Nation, Its People and Their Origins'', [[Cambridge University Press]], 1 October 2001. ISBN 0-521-80789-1, p. 147.</ref> the Greek Macedonians feel that their right to [[self-determination]] is violated by what they regard as the monopolisation of their name by a neighbouring country.

The strong regional identity of the Macedonians was emphasized by the [[List of Prime Ministers of Greece|Prime Minister of Greece]], [[Kostas Karamanlis]], who in January 2007 during a meeting of the [[Council of Europe]] in [[Strasbourg]] declared that:

{{quotation|
I myself am a Macedonian, and another two and a half million Greeks are Macedonians.<ref>[http://news.ert.gr/en/1/22936.asp ERT online] ''Stark message to Skopje'', 2007-01-24. Retrieved on 2007-01-25</ref>
}}

In Greece, the extreme position on the issue suggests that there must be "no Macedonia in the title" of a neighbouring country.<ref>{{cite web| url=http://www.e-grammes.gr/article.php?id=717 | title=Ελληνικές Γραμμές (Hellenic lines - official site of the LA.O.S. party) | work= Η Μακεδονία είναι μόνο Ελληνική (Macedonia is only Greek) | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 27 December 2006}}</ref>

Professor Danforth reports:

{{quotation|
From the Greek nationalist perspective, then, the use of the name "Macedonian" by the "Slavs of Skopje" constitutes a "felony", an "act of plagiarism" against the Greek people. By calling themselves "Macedonians" the Slavs are "stealing" a Greek name; they are "embezzling" Greek cultural heritage; they are "falsifying" Greek history. As Evangelos Kofos, a historian employed by the Greek Foreign Ministry told a foreign reporter, "It is as if a robber came into my house and stole my most precious jewels - my history, my culture, my identity".<ref name=Danforth />
}}

More moderate positions suggest that a disambiguating element should be added to the name of the neighbouring state and its people (notably Slav- or Vardar or New), so as to illustrate the distinction between not just the two, but all groups of self-identifying [[Macedonian]]s.<ref name=GrFA />

{{clear}}

===Semiological confusion===
{| class="infobox bordered" style="width: 345px; font-size: 95%; float: right;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"
| height=35px; colspan="2" border="0" style="color:#fff; background:#669; font-size:larger; font-weight: bold;" align="center" | <big>Demographic Macedonia</big>
|-
| [[Macedonians]]      c. 5 million || All inhabitants of the region, irrespective of ethnicity
|-
| [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|Macedonians]] c. 1.3 million plus diaspora<ref name= census-mk>{{cite web| url=http://www.stat.gov.mk/pdf/kniga_13.pdf | title= State Statistical Office of the Republic of Macedonia| work= 2002 census| language=English | format=pdf | pages=34 |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=21 July 2006}}</ref> || A contemporary ethnic group, also referred to as ''Slavomacedonians'' or ''Macedonian Slavs''<ref>{{cite web| title=MSN Encarta | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | url=http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555941/Macedonia_Former_Yugoslav_Republic_of.html#p6| dateformat = mdy|accessdate=9 September 2006}}</ref>
|-
| Macedonians c. 2.0 million<ref name= census-mk />|| Citizens of the [[Republic of Macedonia]] irrespective of ethnicity
|-
| [[Macedonians (Greek)|Macedonians]] c. 2.6 million plus diaspora<ref> {{el icon}} {{cite web| url= http://www.statistics.gr/gr_tables/S1101_SAP_01_TB_DC_01_02_Y.zip | title= General Secretariat of National Statistical Service of Greece | work= 2001 census | format = zip xls | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 21 July 2006}}</ref> || An ethnic [[Greeks|Greek]] regional group, also referred to as ''Greek Macedonians''.
|-
| [[Ancient Macedonians|Macedonians]] (unknown population) || A group of antiquity
|-
| Macedonians c. 0.3 million<ref> {{bg icon}} {{cite web| url=http://www.nsi.bg/Census/Ethnos.htm | title=National Statistical Institute (of Bulgaria) | work= 2001 census | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= August, 3 2006 }}</ref>|| A [[Bulgarians|Bulgarian]] regional group;<ref name=bcb>{{cite web| url=http://www.diversitybulgaria.org/en/materials.php?sub=36| title=British Council — Bulgaria | work= Macedonians of Bulgaria | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006}}</ref> also referred to as ''[[Pirin]]ers''.
|-
| [[Aromanians|Macedo-Romanians]] c. 0.3 million<ref name= Macedo-Romanians>{{cite web| url= http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=rup | title= Ethnologue | work= Report for Macedo-Romanian language | accessdate=August, 3 2006 | dateformat = mdy }} *The figure includes Aromanians in all countries.</ref>* || An alternative name for [[Aromanians]]
|}

{{main|Macedonia (terminology)}}
The contemporary [[Macedonia (region)|region of Macedonia]] is a wider region in the [[Balkan peninsula]] that spans across several modern states, mainly Greece (Greek [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]), Bulgaria ([[Blagoevgrad province]]), the Republic of Macedonia (formerly [[Vardar Macedonia]]), and [[Albania]] (around [[Lake Ohrid]]). The definite borders of the region are vague, but most contemporary geographers agree on its general location.<ref name= wilkinson>{{cite book | last = Wilkinson| first =H. R.| title = Maps and Politics; a review of the ethnographic cartography of Macedonia| url = http://worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/oclc/244268?tab=holdings| year = 1951| publisher = Liverpool University Press| location = Liverpool | id= {{LCC|DR701.M3|W5}} | pages = 1–4}}</ref> There are several ethnic groups in this region, mostly living within their respective states, all of which are technically [[Macedonians]] in the regional sense. The Republic itself, has a substantial minority (25.2%) of ethnic [[Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia|Albanians]] who are "Macedonians" both in the regional sense, and as legal citizens of the Republic.<ref name= census-mk /><ref name= mkconst>{{cite web| url=http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/mk00000_.html | title=International Constitutional Law | work= Macedonia — Constitution |dateformat = mdy | accessdate=20 July 2006 |language= English translation}}</ref>

The Greek position suggests that the ''monopolization'' of the name by the Republic and its citizens creates semiological confusion, as it becomes increasingly difficult to disambiguate which "Macedonia", which "Macedonians" and what "Macedonian language" are referred to in each occasion.

[[Bulgarians]] living in [[Blagoevgrad province]] ([[Bulgarian Macedonia]]) are reported to not identify themselves with their regional term "Macedonians", so as not to be confused with the [[ethnic Macedonians]].<ref name=bcb />

[[Macedo-Romanians]] ([[Aromanians]]) are often called "Machedoni" by Romanians, as opposed to the citizens of Macedonia, who are called "Macedoneni".

The Greek Macedonians demonstrate a strong regional identity and identify themselves as plain Macedonians, who live in plain [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]], speaking a [[Macedonian dialect]] of modern Greek.

==Ethnic Macedonian position==
===Self-determination and self-identification===
Skopje rejects many of Athens' objections due to what it sees as several errors in the Greek claims.

According to the government in Skopje, the preservation of the constitutional name both for domestic and international use is of utmost importance. The country asserts that it does not lay exclusive claim to the term ''Macedonia'' either in the geographic or the historic sense.<ref name="OfficialMk">''[http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=5&InfoID=1564 Annual address of the President of the Republic of Macedonia, Mr. Branko Crvenkovski in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia]'', on 2005-12-22, Retrieved on 2007-05-11.</ref> Various demonstrations and protests in the [[Republic of Macedonia]]<ref>{{cite web | title= Eurominority | work= Macedonians protest Concil of Europe decision on their Country's name | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.eurominority.org/version/fra/reports-detail.asp?id_actualite=558}}</ref> and the ethnic Macedonian diaspora, the [[ethnic Macedonians]] feel that their right to self-determination is violated by what they regard as the rejection of the name from the Greeks and their country. The Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences suggests:

{{Quotation|
And today Slavs have been living there (Macedonia) for a period of 1,400 years. What is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and continuously in Macedonia should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian"<ref>Council for Research into South-Eastern Europe of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Skopje, 1993 </ref>}}

It should be noted, however, that the Slavs inhabited Macedonia for more than a millennium before the name "Macedonians" was first used to distinguish a specific Slavic ethnic group by a small number of intellectuals towards the end of the nineteenth century.<ref>Danforth, L. (1995) ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'' p. 56-77 ISBN 0691043574 </ref>

===Historical perspective===

From a historical perspective, Macedonian Slav scholars blame Greece for claiming ownership over an ancient kingdom which, in their view, was not Greek, claiming historical studies propose there was a considerable degree of political and cultural distance between ancient Greeks and Macedonians. This view contrasts sharply with that of Greek authors, who point to historical data seen as evidence that ancient Macedonians identified as Greeks and spoke Greek. According to the Macedonian government, the ethnic Macedonian claim to continuity with ancient Macedonia is based on Macedonia's population having mixed with the Slavic newcomers after their arrival in the 6th and 7th century, but having retained the Macedonian name, and elements of their traditions and culture.<ref> http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=291</ref> Moreoever, the former use of the Vergina Sun by the Republic of Macedonia had intended to appeal to all ethnic groups in Macedonia, on the premise that the ancient Kingdom was itself ethnically mixed<ref>{{Cowan|p=125}}''Macedonia: the politics of identity and difference''.Pluto Press, 2000. ISBN 0745315895</ref>. The argument of legitimacy also extends to the view that much of southern (ie Greek) Macedonia was only fully Hellenized by political means in modern times. Slavic-speaking Macedonians can argue that they have a more legitimate claim to the name ''Macedonia'' to many Greek Macedonians, who are descendents of immigrants and refugees that were settled in Macedonia from regions such as Anatolia, Epirus and Thrace during the early twentieth century <ref>{{harvtxt|Cowan|p=5}}</ref>.

=== The ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece ===
{{main|Aegean Macedonians| Minorities in Greece#Slavic-speaking|ethnic Macedonians}}

[[Image:Hellenism in the Near East 1918.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Greek ethnographic map of south-eastern Balkans, showing the Macedonian Slavs as a separate people, by Professor George Soteriadis, Edward Stanford, London, 1918.]]

In the 6th and 7th centuries AD [[Slavic languages|Slavic]]-speaking populations came into northern Greece and the ethnic composition of the wider [[Macedonia (region)|Macedonia region]],<ref name="Britannica-Macedonia">Macedonia. (2006). In ''Encyclopædia Britannica''. Retrieved 16 June 2006, from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service: [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=4411]</ref> and Slavic languages have been spoken in the area alongside Greek in the region ever since. In parts of northern Greece, in the regions of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] (Μακεδονία) and [[Western Thrace|Thrace]] (Θράκη), Slavonic languages continue to be spoken by people with a wide range of self-identifications. The actual linguistic classification of these dialects is unclear, although most linguists will classify them as either [[Bulgarian language|Bulgarian]] or [[Macedonian language|Macedonian Slavic]] taking into account numerous factors, including the resemblance and mutual intelligibility of each dialect to the standard languages (''[[abstand]]''), and the self-identification of the speakers themselves. As however the vast majority of these people don't have a non-Greek national identity, linguists will make their decisions based on ''abstand'' alone. The Slavic-speaking minority of northern Greece can be divided in to two main groups: [[Christianity|Christians]] and [[Islam|Muslims]]. The latter has no reported connection to ethnic Macedonians.

The Christian portion of Greece's Slavic-speaking minority are commonly referred to as ''Slavophones'' (from the Greek Σλαβόφωνοι ''Slavophōnoi'' - lit. Slavic-speakers) or ''Dopii'', which means "locals" in Greek. The vast majority of them espouse a Greek national identity and are bilingual in Greek. They live mostly in the [[West Macedonia|Periphery of Western Macedonia]] and belong to the [[Church of Greece|Greek Orthodox Church]], which in conjunction with the [[Millet (Ottoman Empire)|''millet'']] system of the [[Ottoman Empire]] which occupied the region until 1913, may explain their self-identification as Greeks. In the 1951 census, 41,017 people claimed to speak the [[Slavic language (Greece)|Slavic language]]. One unofficial estimate for 2000 puts their number at 1.8% of the Greek population, that is c.200,000.<ref>''Encyclopedia Britannica'', [http://www.britannica.com/new-multimedia/pdf/wordat077.pdf World Data Greece]. Called "Macedonians" in this source.</ref>

This group has received some attention in recent years due to claims from the [[Republic of Macedonia]] that these people form an [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|''ethnic Macedonian'']] minority in Greece. Some organisations and academics have stated that there is a minority within the [[Minorities in Greece#Slavic-speaking|Slavophone community in Greece]] which self-identifies as [[ethnic Macedonian]].<ref name=GHM>{{cite web | url= http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/rainbow-english.pdf | title= Greek Helsinki Monitor | work= Greece against its Macedonian minority The "Rainbow" trial | accessdate= 2007-01-02|format=PDF}}</ref><ref>Hill, P. (1999) "Macedonians in Greece and Albania: A Comparative study of recent developments". ''Nationalities Papers'' Volume 27, Number 1, 1 March 1999, pp. 17-30(14)</ref><ref>{{cite web | title=Eurominority |work=Macedonians in Greece | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.eurominority.org/version/eng/minority-detail.asp?id_minorites=gr-mace}}</ref><ref name="Danforth">Danforth, L. (1995) ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'' ISBN 0691043574</ref><ref>{{cite web | title=The Guardian |work=Bittersweet return for Greek civil war's lost victims | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1064683,00.html}}</ref>

There is a dispute over the size of this alleged minority, with some Greeks denying it outright, and most ethnic Macedonians inflating the numbers substantially. The [[Greek Helsinki Monitor]] reports that, "difficult and therefore risky it is to declare a Macedonian minority identity in such an extremely hostile if not aggressive environment in Greece".<ref name=GHM /> There are no official statistics to confirm or deny either claims. The Greek government has thus far refused on the basis that there is no significant such community and that the idea of minority status is not popular amongst the (Greek identifying) linguistic community of northern Greece as it would have the effect of them being marginalized.<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.florina.org/html/2005/2005_greece_lies_to_coe.html| title=Rainbow — Vinozhito political party |work= Greek Diplomats and Members of the Greek Parliament Lie to the Council of Europe| accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref>

Professor Danforth reports:

{{quotation|
...Finally, the Greek government denies the existence of a Macedonian minority in northern Greece, claiming that there exists only a small group of "Slavophone Hellenes" or "bilingual Greeks," who speak Greek and "a local Slavic dialect" but have a "Greek national consciousness".<ref name=Danforth />
}}

A political party promoting this line and claiming rights of what they describe as the "Macedonian minority in Greece" — the [[Rainbow (political party)|Rainbow]] (Виножито) — was founded in September 1998; it received a minimal support of 2,955 votes in the region of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] in the latest elections (2004).<ref>{{cite web| title=Ministry of Interiors, Greece |work= 2004 Election results |accessdate= 2007-01-03 | url=http://www.ypes.gr/ekloges/content/gr/elec_data/2004UE_epi_res.asp |language=Greek}}</ref>

==Macedonian, language and dialect==
{{main|Macedonian language naming dispute}}

===Macedonian language (Slavic)===
The name of the [[Macedonian language]] ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: [[Cyrillic]]: Mакедонски јазик - [[Latin]]: ''Makedonski jazik'') as used by the people and defined in the constitution of the [[Republic of Macedonia]] is "Macedonian" ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: [[Cyrillic]]: Mакедонски јазик - [[Latin]]: ''Makedonski jazik'').<ref>[http://www.b-info.com/places/Macedonia/republic/Constitution.shtml Republic of Macedonia - Constitution]</ref> This is also the name used by international bodies, such as the [[United Nations]]<ref>[http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN018344.pdf Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights - FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA: PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION - OSCE/ODIHR Election Observation Mission - Final Report]</ref> and the [[World Health Organisation]].<ref>[http://www.who.int/entity/occupational_health/network/en/oehcompendium.pdf World Health Organization - WHO Library Cataloguing-in-Publication Data]</ref> The name is also used by convention in the field of [[Slavic Studies]].<ref>Sussex, R. (2006) ''The Slavic Languages'' (Cambridge : Cambridge University Press) ISBN 0-521-22315-6</ref>

However, for historical reasons, as well as due to the conflict with Greece, several other terms for the language remain in use. Some of the names use the family to which the language belongs to disambiguate it from the undoubtedly non-Slavic and entirely different [[ancient Macedonian language]], or from the homonymous [[modern Greek#Varieties|dialect of modern Greek]]; sometimes the autonym "Makedonski" is used in English for the modern Slavic language, with "Macedonian" being reserved for the ancient language.<ref>Joseph, B. (1999) [http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/publications/1999roma.pdf ''Romanian and the Balkans: Some Comparative Perspectives''] In S. Embleton, J. Joseph, & H.-J. Niederehe (eds.) ''The Emergence of the Modern Language Sciences.'' Studies on the Transition from Historical-Comparative to Structural Linguistics in Honour of E.F.K. Koerner. Volume 2: Methodological Perspectives and Applications. Amsterdam: John Benjamins (1999), pp. 218-235</ref>

Affirmation of the separateness of Macedonian as a separate language is an issue of some importance for the ethnic Macedonian self-view.<ref name="Danforth"/> In opposition to this, Bulgarian and Greek critics sometimes continue to insist on treating Macedonian as merely a dialect of Bulgarian, pointing to its close structural affinity, its historically late emergence as a separate standard language, and the political motivation behind its promotion in the mid-20th century.

===Macedonian dialect (modern Greek)===
Macedonian is applied to the present-day Greek dialect spoken by Macedonian Greeks.<ref>{{cite book |language=Greek |last=Ανδριώτης (Andriotis) |first=Νικόλαος Π. (Nikolaos P.) |year=1995 |title=Ιστορία της ελληνικής γλώσσας: (τέσσερις μελέτες) (History of the Greek language: four studies) |publisher=Ίδρυμα Τριανταφυλλίδη |location=Θεσσαλονίκη ([[Thessaloniki]]) |isbn=960-231-058-8}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last=Vitti |first=Mario |year=2001 |title=Storia della letteratura neogreca |publisher=Carocci |location=Roma |isbn=88-430-1680-6}}</ref>

===Macedonian (ancient)===
{{Main|Ancient Macedonian language}}

The origins of the [[ancient Macedonian language]] are currently debated. It is as yet undetermined whether it was a [[Ancient Greek dialects|Greek dialect]] which was part of or closely related to the [[Doric Greek|Doric]]<ref>{{cite book |last=Masson |first=Olivier |editor=S. Hornblower and A. Spawforth (eds.) |title=[[Oxford Classical Dictionary|The Oxford Classical Dictionary]] |origyear=1996 |edition=revised 3rd |year=2003 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=USA |isbn=0-19-860641-9 |pages=905–906}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |authorlink=N.G.L. Hammond |last=Hammond |first=N.G.L. |year=1989 |title=The Macedonian State. Origins, Institutions and History |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=0-19-814927-1 |pages=12–13}}</ref> and/or [[Aeolic Greek|Aeolic]]<ref>{{cite book |language=German |authorlink=Franz Heinrich Ludolf Ahrens |last=Ahrens |first=Franz Heinrich Ludolf |year=1843 |title=De Graecae linguae dialectis |location=Göttingen, 1839-1843}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last=Hoffmann |first=O. |title=Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum |location=Göttingen |year=1906 |language=German}}</ref> dialects, a sibling language of [[ancient Greek]] forming a ''Hellenic''<ref name="Joseph">{{cite book |first=B. |last=Joseph |year=2001 |chapter=Ancient Greek |editor=In: J. Garry et al. (eds.) |title=Facts about the world's major languages: an encyclopedia of the world's major languages, past and present |url=http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/articles/gancient.htm}}</ref> (i.e. Greco-Macedonian) supergroup, or an [[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] language which was a close cousin to Greek and also related to [[Thracian language|Thracian]] and [[Phrygian language|Phrygian]] languages.<ref>{{cite book |author=[[JP Mallory|Mallory, J.P.]] and Adams, D.Q. (eds.) |year=1997 |title=Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture |publisher=Taylor & Francis Inc. |isbn=1-884964-98-2 |page=361}}</ref> The scientific community generally agrees that, although some sources are available (e.g. [[Hesychius of Alexandria|Hesychius']] lexicon, [[Pella curse tablet]])<ref>{{cite book |language=French |author=Dubois L. |year=1995 |title=Une tablette de malédiction de Pella: s'agit-il du premier texte macédonien? Revue des Études Grecques (REG) |pages=108:190–197}}</ref> there is no decisive evidence for supporting either hypothesis.<ref>{{cite book |language=French |author=Brixhe C., Panayotou A. |year=1994 |title=Le Macédonien in: Langues indo-européennes |editor=Bader |location=Paris |pages=205–220}}</ref> Nevertheless, [[Attic Greek]], a form of the [[Greek language]], eventually supplanted it entirely in Macedonia from the 5th Century BC, and ancient Macedonian became extinct during the first few centuries AD. Attic Greek evolved into [[Koine Greek]] and in turn into [[Medieval Greek|Byzantine]] and [[modern Greek]].<ref>{{cite web |author=Brian D. Joseph |url=http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/articles/gmodern.htm |title=Greek, Modern |work=Ohio State University, Department of Linguistics}}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist|3}}

==See also==
*[[Macedonia (region)]]
*[[Macedonia (terminology)]]
*[[Macedonian Question]]
*[[List of homonymous states and regions]]
*[[Matthew Nimetz]] - Mediator
*[[Zoran Jolevski]] - Macedonian Negotiator
*[[Adamantios Vassilakis]] - Greek Negotiator

''Notice: Hyperlinks and emphasis in the quotations appearing in this article were not in the original source being quoted, but are merely used for disambiguation purposes.''

{{Hellenic foreign relations}}

[[Category:Geographical naming disputes]]

{{Link FA|mk}}
[[bg:Спор за името на Република Македония]]
[[de:Streit um den Namen Mazedonien]]
[[el:Μακεδονικό Ζήτημα]]
[[es:Disputa sobre el nombre de Macedonia]]
[[fr:Débat autour du nom de la Macédoine]]
[[ko:그리스-마케도니아 분쟁]]
[[id:Persengketaan nama Makedonia]]
[[mk:Спор за името помеѓу Македонија и Грција]]
[[no:Den makedonske navnekonflikten]]
[[pl:Konflikt grecko-macedoński]]
[[pt:FYROM]]
[[sv:Makedonska namnkonflikten]]

Macedonia naming dispute

2009-04-29T18:55:12Z

3rdAlcove: these are not relevant here. the sections describe some (supposedly official or widely-held) arguments forwarded by both sides, not what scholars think (they think that history and politics don't mix)

{|align="right"
|colspan="2"|{{Political Macedonia 2}}
|-
|valign="top"|{{Politics of Greece}}
|valign="top"|{{Politics of the Republic of Macedonia}}
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The '''Macedonia naming dispute''' refers to the disagreement over the use of the name ''[[Macedonia (terminology)|Macedonia]]'' between [[Greece]] and the [[Republic of Macedonia]]. Greece opposes the post-1991 constitutional name of its northern neighbour, citing the lack of disambiguation between it and the adjacent Greek region of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]. Greece also objects to the undisambiguated use of the term ''Macedonian'' for the neighbouring country's main [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|ethnic group]] and [[Macedonian language naming dispute|language]]. The dispute has escalated to the highest level of international mediation, involving numerous attempts to achieve a resolution, notably by the [[United Nations]].

The provisional reference ''the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'' (FYROM) is currently always used in relations involving states which do not recognise the constitutional name, ''Republic of Macedonia''. Nevertheless, all [[United Nations|UN]] member-states, and the UN as a whole, have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries. The ongoing dispute has not prevented the two countries from enjoying close trade links and investment levels (especially from Greece), but it has generated a great deal of political and academic debate on both sides.

Negotiations aimed at resolving the dispute are [[#A continuing negotiation|ongoing]]. It had been hoped that a mutually acceptable solution might be achieved by [[NATO]]'s [[2008 Bucharest summit|summit in Bucharest]] in April 2008. However, the failure to resolve the dispute prevented the Republic of Macedonia from receiving an invitation to join the alliance, due to Greek objections. In return, the Republic of Macedonia referred Greece to the [[International Court of Justice]], accusing Athens of violating the 1995 UN-brokered Interim Accord between the two nations.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14845/ "Macedonia Takes Greece to World Court"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?p1=3&p2=1&code=mg&case=142&k=89 Application of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 (the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia v. Greece)]</ref>

==Background==
{{seealso|Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia#Greece|Foreign relations of Greece#Balkans}}

===Controversy and conflict===
The territory of present-day Republic of Macedonia was formerly part of [[Rumelia]], part of the Ottoman Empire up to 1913. In 1893 a revolutionary movement for the liberation of Macedonia as a separate territorial entity from the Ottoman rule began, resulting in the [[Ilinden Uprising]] on 2 August 1903 (St. Elias's Day). The failure of the Ilinden Uprising caused a change in the strategy of the [[Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization]] (IMRO) from revolutionary to institutional. It split into two wings (one fighting for autonomous Macedonia inside the Ottoman Empire or inside a Balkan Federation led by [[Jane Sandanski]], and a second Supremist wing supporting the inclusion of Macedonia in Bulgaria). After the Ilinden Uprising the revolutionary movement ceased and opened a space for frequent insurgencies of Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek squads into the territory of Macedonia. These squads, often supported by the local populations, often engaged the Turkish army, spelling the eventual collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The state of conflict in 1912 resulted in the [[First Balkan War]], and most of Ottoman Europe, including the territory of Macedonia, was liberated from the Ottomans.

In the next year the [[Second Balkan War]] began and the aftermath was division in 1913 of most of Ottoman Europe into four parts, between Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Albania. The present-day Republic of Macedonia was included in Serbia. In 1914 the First World War started and Bulgaria occupied the entire territory of Macedonia, defeating the Serbs and creating a [[Macedonian front (World War I)|front]] at [[Salonica]]. The present-day Republic of Macedonia was part of Bulgaria until 1918. After Bulgaria signed a capitulation, the borders returned with small adjustments to the situation of 1913, and the present-day Republic of Macedonia became part of the [[Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes]]. This period saw the first recognition of the Macedonian nation, by the [[League of Communists of Yugoslavia]] on the third congress in Vienna in 1926 and in 1936 [[Josip Broz Tito]] took over the leadership of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes changed its name in 1929 to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the present-day Republic of Macedonia was included together with South Serbia in a province named [[Vardar Banovina]]. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia ceased to exist in 1941 as a consequence of the [[Second World War]]. Bulgaria as part of the Axis powers advanced into the territory of the Republic of Macedonia and the Greek province of Macedonia. The territory of the Republic of Macedonia was included into Bulgaria and Italy, and after 1943 into Albania.

The [[National Liberation War of Macedonia]] began officially in 1941 in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia. The [[Macedonian National Liberation Army]], formed by Macedonian partisans, liberated the entire territory of the present-day Republic of Macedonia in 1944. On the 2nd of August in 1944 (St. Elias's Day), honouring the fighters of the Ilinden Uprising, the [[ASNOM|assembly of the people]] constituted the Macedonian state as a federal state within the framework of the future Yugoslav federation. In 1946 the [[Socialist Republic of Macedonia|People's Republic of Macedonia]] was established as federal part of the newly proclaimed [[Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia]] under the leadership of [[Josip Broz Tito]]. The issue of the republic's name immediately sparked controversy with Greece over concerns that it presaged a territorial claim on the Greek coastal region of Macedonia (see [[#Territorial concerns|Territorial concerns]] below). The republic in 1963 was renamed the "Socialist Republic of Macedonia", when the Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia was renamed the [[Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], but dropped the "Socialist" from its name when it declared independence from Yugoslavia in September 1991.

The newly independent republic's accession to the United Nations and recognition by the [[European Community]] was delayed by strong Greek opposition. Although the [[Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on the former Yugoslavia]] declared that the Republic of Macedonia met the conditions set by the EC for international recognition, Greece opposed the international community recognising the Republic due to a number of objections concerning the country's name, flag and constitution. In an effort to block the European Community from recognising the Republic,<ref name="veremis">Thanos Veremis, ''Greece'', pp. 315-316. C. Hurst & Co, 2002. ISBN 185065462X</ref> the Greek government persuaded the EC to adopt a common declaration establishing conditions for recognition which included a ban on "territorial claims towards a neighbouring Community state, hostile propaganda and the use of a denomination that implies territorial claims".<ref>"[http://www.ejil.org/journal/Vol4/No1/art7.html Recognition of States - Annex 2]", Declaration on Yugoslavia (Extraordinary EPC Ministerial Meeting, Brussels, 16 December 1991)</ref>

Greece's major political parties agreed on 13 April 1992 that the word "Macedonia" could not be included in any way in the new republic's name.<ref name="couloumbis">Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore C. Kariotis, Fotini Bellou, ''Greece in the Twentieth Century'', pp. 146-147. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0714654078</ref> This became the cornerstone of the Greek position on the issue. The [[Greek diaspora]] was also mobilised in the naming controversy. A [[Greek-American]] group, Americans for the Just Resolution of the Macedonian Issue, placed a full-page advertisement in the 26 April and 10 May 1992 editions of the ''New York Times'', urging President [[George H. W. Bush]] "not to discount the concerns of the Greek people" by recognising the "Republic of Skopje" as Macedonia. Greek-Canadians also mounted a similar campaign.<ref name="shea">John Shea, ''Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation'', p. 185-188, ISBN 978-0786402281, ISBN 0786402288, published by McFarland & Company (February 1997)</ref> The EC subsequently issued a declaration expressing a willingness "to recognise that republic within its existing borders... under a name which does not include the term Macedonia."<ref>European Council in Lisbon, 26/27 June 1992, [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/summits/lisbon/li2_en.pdf Conclusions of the Presidency, Annex II], p. 43</ref>

Greek objections likewise held up the wider international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia. Although the Republic applied for membership of the United Nations on 30 July 1992, its application languished in a diplomatic limbo for nearly a year. A few states—[[Belarus]], [[Bulgaria]], [[Croatia]], [[Lithuania]], [[Slovenia]] and [[Turkey]]—recognised the republic under its constitutional name before its admission to the UN.<ref name="veremis" /> Most, however, waited to see what the United Nations would do. The delay had a serious effect on the Republic, as it led to a worsening of its already precarious economic and political conditions. With war raging in nearby [[Bosnia and Herzegovina]] and [[Croatia]], the need to ensure the country's stability became an urgent priority for the international community.<ref>Graham T. Allison, Kalypso Nicolàeidis, ''The Greek Paradox: Promise Vs. Performance'', p. 120. MIT Press, 1997. ISBN 0262510928</ref> The deteriorating security situation led to the UN's first-ever preventative peacekeeping deployment in December 1992, when units of the [[United Nations Protection Force]] were deployed to monitor possible border violations from [[Serbia]].<ref>"[http://www.un.org/Depts/DPKO/Missions/unprof_p.htm Former Yugoslavia - UNPROFOR]", Department of Public Information, United Nations. 31 August 1996</ref>

===Compromise solutions===

During 1992, the [[International Monetary Fund]], [[World Bank]] and the [[International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia]] all adopted the appellation "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" to refer to the Republic in their discussions and dealings with it. The same terminology was proposed in January 1993 by France, Spain and the United Kingdom, the three EC members of the [[United Nations Security Council]], to enable the Republic to join the United Nations.<ref>"[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DC1F30F935A15752C0A965958260 Compromise Likely to Take Macedonia Into U.N.]", ''New York Times'', 26 January 1993</ref> The proposal was circulated on 22 January 1993 by the [[United Nations Secretary General]]. However, it was initially rejected by both sides in the dispute. It was immediately opposed by the Greek Foreign Minister, [[Michael Papacostaninou]]. In a letter to the Secretary General dated 25 January 1993, he argued that admitting the republic "prior to meeting the necessary prerequisites, and in particular abandoning the use of the denomination 'Republic of Macedonia', would perpetuate and increase friction and tension and would not be conducive to peace and stability in an already troubled region."<ref name="repertoire">''Repertoire of the Practice of the Security Council Twelfth Supplement 1993-1995'', [http://www.un.org/french/docs/cs/repertoire/93-95/93-95_7.pdf Chapter VII: Practice relative to recommendations to the General Assembly regarding membership in the United Nations 1993-1995]</ref>

The president of the Republic of Macedonia, [[Kiro Gligorov]], also opposed the proposed formula. In a letter of 24 March 1993, he informed the President of the United Nations Security Council that "the Republic of Macedonia will in no circumstances be prepared to accept 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' as the name of the country." He declared that "we refuse to be associated in any way with the present connotation of the term 'Yugoslavia' ".<ref name="repertoire" /> The issue of possible Serbian territorial ambitions had been a long-running concern in the Republic of Macedonia, which some Serbian nationalists still called "South Serbia" after its pre-World War II name.<ref>John B. Allcock, "Macedonia". In ''Europe Since 1945: An Encyclopedia'', ed. Bernard Anthony Cook, p. 807. Taylor & Francis, 2001. ISBN 0815340583</ref> The government in the Republic of Macedonia was consequently nervous of any naming formula which might be seen to endorse a possible Serbian territorial claim.

Both sides came under intense diplomatic pressure to compromise. The support that Greece had received initially from its allies and partners in [[NATO]] and the [[European Community]] had begun to wane due to a combination of factors that included irritation in some quarters at Greece's hard line on the issue and a belief that Greece had flouted sanctions against [[Slobodan Milošević]]'s [[Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]]. The intra-Community tensions were publicly exposed on 20 January 1993 by the Danish foreign minister, [[Uffe Ellemann-Jensen]], who attracted the ire of Greek members of the [[European Parliament]] when he described the Greek position as "ridiculous" and expressed the hope that "the Security Council will very quickly recognise Macedonia and that many of the member states of the Community will support this."<ref name="gallagher">Tom Gallagher, ''The Balkans in the New Millennium: In the Shadow of War and Peace'', pp. 7-8. Routledge, 2005. ISBN 0415349400</ref>

The Greek Prime Minister, [[Constantine Mitsotakis]], took a much more moderate line on the issue than many of his colleagues in the governing [[New Democracy (Greece)|New Democracy]] party.<ref name="veremis" /> Despite opposition from hardliners, he endorsed the proposal in March 1993.<ref name="bethlehem">Daniel L. Bethlehem, Marc Weller, ''The 'Yugoslav' Crisis in International Law'', p. xlv. Cambridge University Press, 1997. ISBN 0521463041</ref> The acceptance of the formula by Athens also led to the reluctant acquiescence of the government in Skopje, though it too was divided between moderates and hardliners on the issue.

On 7 April 1993, the UN Security Council endorsed the admission of the republic in [[UN Security Council Resolution 817]]. It recommended to the [[United Nations General Assembly]] "that the State whose application is contained in document S/25147 be admitted to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State."<ref>[http://www.nato.int/ifor/un/u930407a.htm United Nations Security Council Resolution 817], 7 April 1993</ref> The recommendation was agreed by the General Assembly, which passed Resolution 225 on the following day, 8 April, using virtually the same language as the Security Council.<ref>"[http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm Admission of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to membership in the United Nations]", United Nations General Assembly Resolution 225, 8 April 1993</ref> The Republic of Macedonia thus became the 181st member of the United Nations.

The compromise solution, as set out in the two resolutions, was very carefully worded in an effort to meet the objections and concerns of both sides. The wording of the resolutions rested on four key principles:

* The appellation "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" was purely a ''provisional'' term to be used only until the dispute was resolved.<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref>

* The term was a ''reference'', not a name; as a neutral party in the dispute, the United Nations had not sought to determine the name of the state.<ref name="frowein" /> The President of the Security Council subsequently issued a statement declaring on behalf of the Council that the term "merely reflected the historic fact that it had been in the past a republic of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."<ref name="repertoire" /> The purpose of the term was also emphasized by the fact that the expression begins with the uncapitalised words "the former Yugoslav", acting as a descriptive term, rather than "the Former Yugoslav", which would act as a [[proper noun]].<ref name="frowein" /> By also being a reference rather than a name, it met Greek concerns that the term "Macedonia" should not be used in the republic's internationally recognised name.

* The use of the term was purely "for all purposes within the United Nations"; it was not being mandated for any other party.<ref name="frowein" />

* The term did not imply that the Republic of Macedonia had any connection with the existing Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, as opposed to the historical and now-defunct Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.<ref name="repertoire" />

One additional concern that had to be taken care of was the seating of the Republic of Macedonia in the General Assembly. Greece rejected seating the Republic's representative under M [as in "Macedonia (former Yugoslav Republic of)"], and the Republic rejected sitting under F (as in "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", which turned the reference into a proper noun rather than a description). Instead, it was seated under T as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and placed next to [[Thailand]].<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref>

In due course, the same convention was adopted by many other international organizations and states but they did so independently, not as the result of being instructed by the UN. For its part, Greece did not adopt the UN terminology at this stage and did not recognise the Republic under any name. The rest of the international community did not immediately recognise the Republic, but this did eventually happen at the end of 1993 and start of 1994. The People's Republic of China was the first major power to act, recognising the Republic under its constitutional name on 13 October 1993. On 16 December 1993, two weeks before Greece was due to take up the European Community presidency, six key EC countries—Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom—recognised the Republic under its UN designation. Other EC countries followed suit in quick succession and by the end of December, all EC member states except Greece had recognised the Republic.<ref name="bethlehem" /> Japan, Russia and the United States followed suit on 21 December 1993, 3 February 1994, and 9 February 1994 respectively.<ref>Ian Jeffries, ''The Former Yugoslavia at the Turn of the Twenty-first Century'', p. 54. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0415281903</ref>

===A continuing dispute===

Despite the apparent success of the compromise agreement, it led to an upsurge in nationalist agitation in both countries. Anti-Western and anti-American feelings came to the fore in Greece, in response to a perception that Greece's partners in the EC and NATO had betrayed it.<ref name="gallagher">Tom Gallagher, ''The Balkans in the New Millennium: In the Shadow of War and Peace'', pp. 7-8. Routledge, 2005. ISBN 0415349400</ref> The government of Constantine Mitsotakis was highly vulnerable; it had a majority of only a couple of seats and was under considerable pressure from ultra-nationalists. After the country's admission to the UN, the hardline former foreign minister [[Antonis Samaras]] broke away from the governing New Democracy (ND) party along with three like-minded deputies who resented what they saw as the prime minister's unacceptable weakness on the Macedonian issue. This defection deprived ND of its slim parliamentary majority and ultimately caused the fall of the government, which suffered a landslide defeat in the general election of October 1993. It was replaced by the [[PASOK]] party under [[Andreas Papandreou]], who introduced an even more hardline policy on Macedonia and withdrew from the UN-sponsored negotiations on the naming issue in late October.<ref name="gallagher" /><ref>Robert Bideleux, Richard Taylor, ''European Integration and Disintegration: East and West'', p. 136. Routledge, 1996. ISBN 0415137403</ref>

The government of the Republic of Macedonia also faced domestic opposition for its part in the agreement. Protest rallies against the UN's temporary reference were held in the cities of [[Skopje]], [[Kočani]] and [[Resen, Republic of Macedonia|Resen]]. The parliament only accepted the agreement by a narrow margin, with 30 deputies voting in favour, 28 voting against and 13 abstaining. The nationalist opposition [[VMRO-DPMNE]] party called a [[vote of no confidence]] over the naming issue, but the government survived with 62 deputies voting in its favour.<ref>John Phillips, ''Macedonia: Warlords and Rebels in the Balkans'', p. 56. I.B.Tauris, 2004. ISBN 186064841X</ref>

The naming dispute has not been confined to the Balkans, as immigrant communities from both countries have actively defended the positions of their respective homelands around the world, organizing large protest rallies in major European, North American and Australian cities. After Australia recognized the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in early 1994, tensions between the two communities reached a climax, with churches and properties hit by a series of tit-for-tat bomb and arson attacks in [[Melbourne]].<ref>Dennis Ernest Ager, ''Language, Community and the State'', p. 63. Intellect Books, 1997. ISBN 1871516943</ref>

===Interim accord===
[[File:FlagofMacedonia91-95.png|right|150px|thumb|The former flag of the Republic of Macedonia (used from 1992–1995)]]
[[Image:Flag of Macedonia.svg|right|150px|thumb|The current flag of the Republic.]]
Greece and the Republic of Macedonia eventually formalised bilateral relations in an Interim Accord signed in New York on 13 September 1995.<ref name="Interim Accord">{{cite web|url=http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf|title=Interim Accord|date=1995|publisher=[[United Nations]]|accessdate=2008-11-07}}</ref> Under the agreement, the Republic removed the [[Vergina Sun]] from its flag and allegedly [[irredentism|irredentist]] clauses from its constitution, and both countries committed to continuing negotiations on the naming issue under UN auspices. For its part, Greece agreed that it would not object to any application by the Republic so long as it used only the appellation set out in "paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817" (i.e. "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia").{{Fact|date=January 2009}} This opened the door for the Republic to join a variety of international organisations and initiatives, including the [[Council of Europe]], [[OSCE]] and [[Partnership for Peace]].<ref>Edmund Jan Osmanczyk, "Macedonia, former Yugoslav Republic of", in ''Encyclopedia of the United Nations and International Agreements'' ed. Anthony Mango, p. 1355. Routledge, 2002. ISBN 0415939208</ref>

The accord was not a conventional perpetual treaty, as it can be superseded or revoked, but its provisions are legally binding in terms of international law. Most unusually, it did not use the names of either party. Greece, "the Party of the First Part", recognised the Republic of Macedonia under the term "the Party of the Second Part".<ref name="veremis">Thanos Veremis, ''Greece'', pp. 315-316. C. Hurst & Co, 2002. ISBN 185065462X</ref> The accord did not specifically identify either party by name (thus avoiding the awkwardness of Greece having to use the term "Macedonia" in reference to its northern neighbour). Instead, it identified the two parties elliptically by describing the Party of the First Part as having [[Athens]] as its capital and the Party of the Second Part having its capital at [[Skopje]].<ref name="frowein">Jochen Abr. Frowein, Rüdiger Wolfrum, ''Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997'', p. 239. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1998.</ref> Subsequent declarations have continued this practice of referring to the parties without naming them.<ref>See e.g. the [http://old.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/hiperb/bilateral/fyrom.html Agreement on a five year development cooperation programme 2002-2006 between the Government of the Party of the First Part to the Interim Accord 13 September 1995 and the Government of the Party of the Second Part to the Interim Accord 13 September 1995]</ref>

Secretary [[Cyrus Vance]] was the witness of Interim Accord as Special Envoy of the Secretary-General of the United Nations.<ref name="Interim Accord">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=392|title=Interim Accord|date=1995|publisher=[[United Nations]]|accessdate=2008-11-07}}</ref>

=== Stalemate ===

The naming issue has not yet been resolved, but it has effectively reached a stalemate.<ref>Floudas, Demetrius Andreas; {{cite web |publisher= 24 (1996) Journal of Political and Military Sociology, 285|url=http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3719/is_199601/ai_n8752910 | title= "A Name for a Conflict or a Conflict for a Name? An Analysis of Greece's Dispute with FYROM”, |accessdate=2007-01-24}}</ref> Various names had been proposed over the years, for instance "New Macedonia", "Upper Macedonia", "Slavo-Macedonia", "Nova Makedonija", "Macedonia (Skopje)" and so on. However, these had invariably fallen foul of the Greek position that no permanent formula incorporating the term "Macedonia" is acceptable.<ref name="couloumbis">Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore C. Kariotis, Fotini Bellou, ''Greece in the Twentieth Century'', pp. 146-147. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0714654078</ref><ref>Kyriakos Kentrotis, "Echoes from the Past: Greece and the Macedonian Controversy", p. 100 in ''Mediterranean Politics'', ed. Richard Gillespie. Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1996. ISBN 0838636098</ref> Athens had counter-proposed the names "Vardar Republic" or "Republic of Skopje", but the government and opposition parties in Skopje had consistently rejected any solution that eliminates the term "Macedonia" from the country's name.<ref>David Turncock, ''The Human Geography of East Central Europe'', p. 33. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 0415121914</ref> Following these developments, Greece has gradually revised its position and demonstrates its acceptance of a "composite solution" (i.e. the incorporation of the term "Macedonia" in the name, but with the use of a disambiguating qualifier).<ref name= GrFA /><ref name= Gorna /><ref name= dashskopje1 /><ref name= dashskopje2 /><ref name= Skai.10.2007>{{el icon}} [http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=62678 Skai News], Συμβιβασμός ή βέτο (''Compromise or Veto''), Retrieved on 2007-10-14. The source uses original quotes from an interview of MFA [[Dora Bakoyannis]] in [[Kathimerini]] newspaper where she supports a composite name solution.</ref><ref>{{en icon}} [http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/15102007_McC_KL1337.htm Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs], ''Interview of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis in the Athens daily Kathimerini, with journalist Ms. D. Antoniou (Sunday, 14 October 2007)'', [full text], Retrieved on 2007-10-15</ref>

The inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia are overwhelmingly opposed to changing the country's name. A June 2007 opinion poll found that 77 per cent of the population were against a change in the country's constitutional name, and 72 per cent supported the Republic's accession to [[NATO]] only if it was admitted under its constitutional name. Only 8 per cent supported accession under the reference "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"<ref>"Macedonians in Favour of NATO Accession Under Constitutional Name", A1 TV, 12 June 2004</ref>.

A number of states recognise the Republic of Macedonia by its constitutional name. A few had recognized it by this name from the start, while most others had switched from recognising it under its UN reference. By September 2007, 118 countries (61% of all UN member states) had recognised the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.<ref name="mia">{{cite news |title=New Draft Resolution Won't Change US Position Towards Macedonia |work=Foreign Ministry |publisher=MIA news agency |location=Skopje |date=2007-08-09 |url=http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2008/08/greek-olympic-committee-protests-over.html}}</ref> Some observers have suggested that the gradual erosion of the Greek position means that "the question appears destined to die" in due course.<ref>Duncan M. Perry, "The Republic of Macedonia: finding its way", in ''Democratization and Authoritarianism in Postcommunist Societies'', ed. Karen Dawisha, Bruce Parrott, p. 270. Cambridge University Press, 1997. ISBN 0521597331</ref> On the other hand, attempts by the Republic to persuade international organisations to drop the provisional reference have met with limited success. A recent example was the rejection by the [[Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe]] of a draft proposal to replace the provisional reference with the constitutional name in [[Council of Europe]] documents.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=22.01.2008,id=10870080|title= Βρήκαν τοίχο τα Σκόπια στο Συμβούλιο της Ευρώπης|work=[[Eleftherotypia|Ελευθεροτυπία]]|author=Νίκος Ρούσσης|date=2008-01-22}}</ref>

The compromise reference is always used in relations when states not recognizing the constitutional name are present. This is because the UN refers to the country only as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", although all UN member-states (and the UN itself) have agreed to accept any final agreement resulting from negotiations between the two countries. Moscow's ambassador to Athens, Andrei Vdovin, stated that Russia will support whichever solution stems from the UN compromise talks, while hinting that "it is some other countries that seem to have a problem in doing so".<ref>[http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_1_02/03/2008_261439 Kathimerini], «Ναι» από τη Ρωσία στο όνομα που θα συμφωνηθεί (''"Yes" from Russia in whichever name agreed''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref>

Although the two countries continue to argue over the name, in practice they deal pragmatically with each other. Economic relations and cooperation have resumed to such an extent that Greece is now considered one of the Republic's most important foreign economic partners and investors.<ref>{{cite web | author=National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia | url=http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/WBStorage/Files/AI_Annual_Report_2003_ang.pdf | title=Annual Report 2003 |accessdate=2006-11-19 | format=PDF | work= }}</ref>

Most Greeks reject any use of the word "Macedonia" to describe the Republic of Macedonia, instead calling it "ΠΓΔΜ" (Πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας), the Greek translation of FYROM, or ''[[Skopje]]'' and its inhabitants ''Skopians'' (Greek: ''Σκοπιανοί''), after the country's capital. This [[metonymy|metonymic]] name is not used by non-Greeks, and many inhabitants of the Republic regard it as insulting. Greek official sources sometimes use the term "Slavomacedonian" to refer to the Republic's inhabitants; the US State Department has used the term side by side with "Macedonian", albeit having them both in quotation marks.<ref>{{cite web | author=[[United States Department of State]], Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
|title=Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2005 |accessdate=2006-11-19 | url=http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61651.htm |date=2006-03-09 |format=HTML |work=}}</ref> The name "Macedonian Slavs" (Македонски Словени) is another term used to refer to the ethnic Macedonians by non-Greeks. A number of news agencies have used it (although the BBC recently discontinued its use on the grounds that people had alleged it was offensive), and it is used by the [[Encarta]] Encyclopedia. The name has been occasionally used in early ethnic Macedonian literary sources as in [[Krste Misirkov]]'s work ''On Macedonian Matters'' (Za Makedonckite Raboti) in 1903.

The March 2004 application of the Republic of Macedonia for membership of the European Union may help to speed efforts to find a solution; in a meeting of 14 September 2004, the EU noted that the difference over the name of the Republic of Macedonia still persists and encouraged parties to find a mutually acceptable solution, but stated that it is not part of the conditions for [[Accession of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the European Union|EU accession]]. It was, however, a handicap for its membership into [[NATO]].

===Recent proposals and the "double name formula"===
In 2005, [[Matthew Nimetz]], UN Special Representative, suggested using "Republika Makedonija-Skopje" [sic] for official purposes. Greece did not accept the proposal outright, but characterized it as "a basis for constructive negotiations". Prime Minister [[Vlado Buckovski]] rejected the proposal and counterproposed a "double name formula" where the international community uses "Republic of Macedonia" and Greece uses "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".<ref name=dashskopje1>{{cite news | title=Greece considers Macedonia name | url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4425249.stm | publisher=[[BBC News]] |date=2005-04-08 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }} </ref><ref name=dashskopje2>{{cite web |publisher=Southeast European Times |first=Zoran |last=Nikolovski |date=2005-04-14 |title=Nimitz Proposal For Macedonia's Name Sparks Debate | url=http://www.balkan-info.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2005/04/14/feature-02 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }}</ref>

Nimetz was reported to have made a new proposal in October 2005; that the name "Republika Makedonija" should be used by those countries that have recognized the country under that name and that Greece should use the formula "Republika Makedonija – Skopje", while the international institutions and organizations should use the name "Republika Makedonia" in Latin alphabet transcription. Although the government of the Republic of Macedonia accepted the proposal as a good basis for solving the dispute, Greece rejected the proposal as unacceptable.<ref name="oneworld_20051014">{{cite news |publisher=OneWorld Southeast Europe | url=http://see.oneworld.net/article/view/120536/1/ | title=Matthew Nimitz Will Not Present a New Proposal on the Name date=2005-10-14 | accessdate=2006-11-19 }}</ref>

In December 2006, the government of the Republic announced the intent to rename [[Skopje Airport]] "Petrovec" to "Aleksandar Veliki" ([[Alexander the Great]]).<ref name=kath1>{{cite web| url= http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100006_29/12/2006_78322 | title= Kathimerini | work= A stir over name of Skopje’s airport | accessdate=2007-01-19 | year= Friday 29 December 2006}}</ref> Matthew Nimetz was invited to Athens in January 2007, where he commented that the efforts to mediate in the issue over the name were "affected and not in a positive way".<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=50789&NrIssue=243&NrSection=20 | title= Makfax vesnik | work= Nimetz's talks in Athens included "Alexander the Great" | accessdate=2007-01-19 | year= Friday, 12.01.2007}}</ref>

===NATO and EU accession talks===

The Republic of Macedonia's aspirations to join the European Union and NATO under its constitutional name have caused controversy in recent years. Under the Interim Accord of September 1995, Greece agreed not to obstruct the Republic's applications for membership in international bodies as long as it did so under its provisional UN appellation. Leading Greek officials had repeatedly stated that Athens would [[veto]] the country's accession in the absence of a resolution to the dispute.<ref>{{cite web|title=Southeast European Times|work=Greece to veto Macedonia's EU, NATO bids if name issue not resolved|url=http://setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/newsbriefs/setimes/newsbriefs/2007/09/07/nb-06|accessdate= 2007-09-19}}</ref><ref name=noEUsorry>{{cite web| url=http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=18371 | title=Embassy of Greece - Washington, DC | work=Answer of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis regarding the FYROM name issue | dateformat= mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006 |language= English}}</ref><ref>{{cite web| url=http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=76 |title= United Macedonian Diaspora | work= Interview with Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 2 November 2006}}</ref> The [[Minister for Foreign Affairs (Greece)|Greek foreign minister]], [[Dora Bakoyannis]], stated that "...the [[Hellenic Parliament]], under any composition, will not ratify the accession of the neighbouring country to the [[EU]] and [[NATO]] if the name issue is not resolved beforehand."<ref name=noEUsorry>{{cite web| url=http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=18371 | title=Embassy of Greece - Washington, DC | work=Answer of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis regarding the FYROM name issue | dateformat= mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006 |language= English}}</ref><ref>{{cite web| url=http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=76 |title= United Macedonian Diaspora | work= Interview with Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 2 November 2006}}</ref>

The Greek Prime Minister [[Kostas Karamanlis]] had initially denied ever committing himself unequivocally to exercising Greece's right of veto, stating instead that he would only block the neighbouring country's application for EU and NATO membership if it sought to be admitted as the "Republic of Macedonia",<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20070911&nid=5953596&sn=ΚΥΡΙΟ%20ΤΕΥΧΟΣ&spid= | title= To Vima | work= "I Never Used the Word Veto" | accessdate=2007-01-23 | date= September 11, 2007}}</ref> but on 19 October 2007, he stated that without a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue, the country could not join either NATO or the EU.<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=13321 | title= Eleútheros Týpos | work= "Karamanlis: No accession without a solution for the name" | accessdate=2007-10-25 | date= 19 October 2007}}</ref>

Negotiations between Athens and Skopje were resumed on the 1 November 2007, continued on 1 December of the same year, and a bilateral meeting was held in January 2008. On 19 February 2008 in Athens, the delegations of the two countries met under the auspices of the UN mediator, Matthew Nimetz. They were presented with a new framework, which they both accepted as a basis for further negotiations. The new framework was intended to be secret for the negotiations to take place, but leaked early in the press. The full text in Greek was published initially by ''[[To Vima]]'' and circulated fast in all major media. It contained 8 points, and the general idea was a "composite name solution" for all international purposes.<ref name=NimetzComprText>[http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=22.02.2008,id=81896072 Enet News], Ολόκληρο το κείμενο της πρότασης Νίμιτς (''Whole text of the Nimetz proposal'') ([http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.enet.gr%2Fonline%2Fonline_text%2Fc%3D110%2Cdt%3D22.02.2008%2Cid%3D81896072&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 Automatic translation in English]), Retrieved on 2008-03-06.</ref> It also contained five proposed names:<ref name=NimetzComprText />

*"Constitutional Republic of Macedonia"
*"Democratic Republic of Macedonia"
*"Independent Republic of Macedonia"
*"New Republic of Macedonia"
*"Republic of Upper Macedonia"

On 27 February 2008, a rally was held in Skopje called by several organizations in support of the name "Republic of Macedonia".<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8192/ Balkan Insight.com], ''Macedonians Rally 'To Protect Name','' Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref> Greek nationalist party [[Popular Orthodox Rally]] also organized a similar rally in Thessaloniki on 5 March, in support of the name "Macedonia" being used only by Greece.<ref>[http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,id=22605288 Enet.gr], Συλλαλητήριο ΛΑΟΣ την άλλη Τετάρτη στη Θεσσαλονίκη (''LAOS Demonstration next Wednesday in Thessaloniki''), Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref> The Greek church and both major Greek parties have strongly discouraged such manifestations "during this sensitive time of negotiation".<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74729 Skai News], Εκ του σύνεγγυς στη Νέα Υόρκη (''Concurrently in New York''), Retrieved on 2008-02-28.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74772 Skai News], Χαμηλοί τόνοι (''Low tones''), Retrieved on 2008-02-29.</ref>

On 2 March 2008 in New York, Matthew Nimetz announced that the talks failed, that there is a "gap" in the positions of the two countries, and that there will not be any progress, unless there is some sort of compromise, which he characterized as "valuable" for both sides.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74961 Skai News] "Ναυάγιο" στις διαπραγματεύσεις (''"Shipwreck" in the talks''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75029 Skai News], Στην Αθήνα με "μήνυμα" ο Σέφερ (''[[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer|Scheffer]] in Athens with a "message"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> After Greek PM Karamanlis's warnings that "no solution equals no invitation",<ref name=GrVeto>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74863 Skai News], "Μη λύση σημαίνει μη πρόσκληση" (''No Solution equals No Invitation''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> the Greek media took it for granted that Greece would [[veto]] the coming [[NATO Membership Action Plan|NATO accession talks]] for the country, in the Foreign Ministers' summit on 6 March 2008 in Brussels.<ref>[http://www.ant1online.gr/Politics/Diplomacy/Pages/20083/fd8a8be7-93f3-4f9f-87dc-8f6525a2f9e5.aspx Ant1 News], Ώρα μηδέν για το Σκοπιανό (''Time Zero for the Skopjan issue''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref><ref name=GrVeto2>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=878422&lngDtrID=244 in.gr], Στην Αθήνα τη Δευτέρα ο γγ του ΝΑΤΟ με φόντο το αδιέξοδο στο θέμα της ΠΓΔΜ (''NATO Secretary in Athens on Monday after FYROM issue deadlock''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref>

Meanwhile, in a newer poll in Greece, the "composite name that includes the name Macedonia for the country" seemed, for the first time, to be marginally more popular than the previous more hard-lined stance of "no Macedonia in the title" (43% vs 42%). In the same poll, 84% of the respondents were pro-veto in the country's NATO accession talks, if the issue wasn't resolved by then.<ref name=GrVeto2 /><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74967 Skai News], Υπέρ του βέτο το 84% των Ελλήνων (''84% of Greeks Are For Veto''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> All Greek political parties except the small nationalist party Popular Orthodox Rally support the "composite name for all uses" solution, and vehemently oppose to any "[[Macedonia naming dispute#Recent proposals and the .22double name formula.22|double name]]" formula which is proposed by the republic.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=74076 Skai News], Ενημέρωση για την πρόταση Νίμιτς (''Briefing on Nimetz's proposal''), Retrieved on 2008-03-02.</ref> This shift in the official and public position was described by the PM of Greece as "the maximum recoil possible".<ref name=GrVeto />

Following his visit to Athens for an attempt to persuade the Greek government not to proceed in a veto, the NATO Secretary General [[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer]] implied that the onus to compromise rested on the Republic of Macedonia.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7276524.stm BBC News], ''Macedonia urged to solve name row'', Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref> In the same spirit, the EU enlargement commissioner [[Olli Rehn]], expressed his fear that "it might have negative consequences on [[Accession of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the European Union|FYROM’s EU bid]], although it is a bilateral question, Greece - as any other EU member - has the right to veto".<ref name=GapRemains>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75294 Skai News], "Παραμένει το χάσμα" (''"The gap remains"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref><ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8393/ BalkanInsight], ''EU Warns Over Macedonia 'Name','' Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=103916&NrIssue=600&NrSection=10 Makfax Online], ''Rehn requested settling of the name issue'', Retrieved on 2008-03-05.</ref> On 5 March 2008, Nimetz visited Skopje to try to find common ground on his proposal, but announced that "the gap remains".<ref name=GapRemains/>

As earlier anticipated, on 6 March 2008, in the NATO Foreign Minister's summit in Brussels, Greek minister [[Dora Bakoyannis]] announced that "as regards the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, ... , unfortunately, the policy followed by our neighbouring country in its relations with Greece, on the one side with intransigence and on the other with a logic of nationalist and irredentist actions tightly connected with the naming issue, does not allow us to maintain a positive stance, as we did for Croatia and Albania. ... As long as there is no such solution, Greece will remain an insuperable obstacle to the European and Euro-Atlantic ambition of FYROM".<ref name=veto1>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75394 Skai News], "Η Ελλάδα ανυπέρβλητο εμπόδιο" (''"Greece, an insuperable obstacle"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-07.</ref><ref name=veto2>[http://www.skai.gr/master_avod.php?id=75389 Skai News Video], "Λύση ή Βέτο" (''"Solution or Veto"''), video of Bakoyannis' press interview after the summit, Retrieved on 2008-03-07.</ref>

On 7 March 2008, the US [[Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs]], [[Daniel Fried]], made an unscheduled visit to Skopje, with the message that the two sides must cooperate with Matthew Nimetz to find a mutually acceptable solution for the naming dispute.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75520 Skai News], Επαφές στα Σκόπια (''Contacts in Skopje''), Retrieved on 2008-03-08.</ref>

Concerns have been expressed in Skopje and Athens on the stability of the governing coalition of [[VMRO-DPMNE]] and [[Democratic Party of Albanians]] (DPA) and subsequently the negotiating power of PM [[Nikola Gruevski]] with regards to the naming dispute, after the leader of DPA Menduh Thaçi accused the government of not complying to its requests about the rights of [[Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia]].<ref name=crisis>[http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSL12922300 Reuters], "Albanian party threatens to bring down Macdonian govt", Retrieved on 2008-03-12</ref> Greek media considered the option that the crisis may be a diplomatic way of increasing the pressure for the Greek side.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75990 Skai News], Νέοι Ελιγμοί (''New Tactics''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref> Following a call for cooperation by the president [[Branko Crvenkovski]], the other four major parties agreed to support Gruevski's government until [[2008 Bucharest summit|NATO's convention in Bucharest]] on 4 April 2008.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76055 Skai News], Σκόπια: Έκκληση για πολιτική συναίνεση (''Skopje: Call for political cooperation''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref><ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76105 Skai News], Στηρίζουν Γκρουέφκσι (''[They] Support Gruevski''), Retrieved on 2008-03-15.</ref>

Following the declaration of Athens for a veto, the press in Skopje reported increased intervention from the United States to solve the dispute, through [[Victoria Nuland]], the US NATO ambassador.<ref name=Unchanged /> Antonio Milošoski announced that "Nimetz's proposal remains unchanged".<ref name=Unchanged /> The daily newspaper ''[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|Dnevnik]]'' reported that diplomatic sources claim that this is the last attempt from the American leadership to help in finding a solution, and that the target of this effort will be for the country to retreat from its position for a "double name formula" and Greece to accept something along these lines.<ref name=Unchanged /> It continued that the US would exercise pressure to both parts for finding a solution until NATO's summit, so that the alliance can be expanded.<ref name=Unchanged /> [[Olli Rehn]] urged "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to show the correct political will in seizing the opportunity to find an acceptable solution for both parts".<ref name=Unchanged>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=75753 Skai News], "Η εντολή του Νίμιτς παραμένει ως έχει" (''"Nimetz's order remains unchanged"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

A new meeting between Nimetz and the two parties was arranged on 17 March 2008, in Vienna, in the office of the former US special envoy to Kosovo and ex-[[president of Finland]], [[Martti Ahtisaari]].<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76251 Skai News], Ξεκίνησαν οι Συνομιλίες (''The Talks Began''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref> Nimetz noted that he did not present any new proposals, thanked the United States with whom he said he was in contact, and urged more countries to help in solving the dispute. He also announced that he is more optimistic after this meeting, and that he focused only on the solutions that could be applied by NATO's summit in April.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76261 Skai News], Αισιόδοξος ο Νιμιτς (''Nimetz is Optimistic''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

According to the press in the Republic of Macedonia<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=86447574CFD4D748998828E31E075A41|title=По Виена Нимиц е поголем оптимист за името (After Vienna Nimetz is a bigger optimist about the name)|date=2008-03-18|publisher=[[Utrinski vesnik (daily newspaper)|Utrinski Vesnik]]|language=Macedonian|accessdate=2008-05-11}}</ref> Nimetz now limited his proposal to three names of the five that were proposed in his original framework:<ref name=NimetzComprText />

*"Republic of Upper Macedonia"
*"New Republic of Macedonia" or "Republic of New Macedonia"
*"Republic of Macedonia-Skopje"

Of the three, Greek media have reported that the only serious contender is "New Macedonia", being the solution favoured throughout the current round of negotiations by Washington, which regards it as the "most neutral" option.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20080319&nid=7890209&sn=&spid=|title=Αναζητούν συμβιβασμό με «Νέα Μακεδονία» (''Seeking a compromise with "New Macedonia"'')|work=[[To Vima]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-19}}</ref> According to some reports, all three proposals were swiftly rejected by Skopje on the grounds that "neither would constitute a logical basis for a solution, given that all had been rejected by one or the other side over the last 15 years".<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76371 Skai News], "Όχι" από Σκόπια στις προτάσεις Νίμιτς (''"No" from Skopje to Nimetz proposals''), Retrieved on 2008-03-19.</ref> Greek diplomatic sources have intimated that international pressure has now shifted towards the former Yugoslav republic.<ref name=3proposals>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76333 Skai News], Εντατικές διαπραγματεύσεις για το όνομα (''Intense negotiations for the name''), Retrieved on 2008-03-18.</ref>

A special meeting outside the auspices of the UN was arranged on 21 March 2008, at US ambassador's to NATO [[Victoria Nuland]]'s house in Brussels, between the two foreign ministers [[Dora Bakoyannis]] and [[Antonio Milošoski]] and with the presence of the US [[Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs]], [[Daniel Fried]].<ref name=commitment>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76459 Skai News], "Δέσμευση" για το όνομα (''"Commitment" for the name''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref><ref name=commitment2>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76552 Skai News], Νέος γύρος συνομιλιών για το όνομα (''New round of talks for the name''),Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref> Following the meeting, both ministers stressed for the first time their "commitment" for finding a solution until NATO's summit.<ref name=commitment /><ref name=commitment2 />

The first voices seeking compromise have started to be heard in Skopje.<ref name= compromisevoices>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76555 Skai News], Σύσκεψη για το όνομα στα Σκόπια (''Meeting for the name in Skopje''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref> The president of the republic, [[Branko Crvenkovski]], announced: "If during the ongoing talks we can reach a rational compromise, which from the one side will defend our ethnic identity, and from the other will enable us to receive the NATO invitation, while at the same time canceling our further EU accession obstacles, then I think that this is something that must be supported, and I personally side with the supporters. Some accuse me that with my stance I am undermining the negotiating position of the Republic of Macedonia, yet I do not agree, because we are not in the beginning, but in the final phase of the negotiations. The one who will tell me that the price is high, is obliged to address the public opinion and announce an alternative scenario on how Macedonia will develop in the next ten to fifteen years."<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=884242&lngDtrID=244 in.gr], Ενισχύονται οι φωνές στο εσωτερικό της ΠΓΔΜ για ένα «λογικό συμβιβασμό» στην ονομασία (''Voices within FYROM for a "logical compromise" are louder''), Retrieved on 2008-03-22.</ref>

In the same spirit, opposing [[New Social Democratic Party]] party leader [[Tito Petkovski]] (which by now participates in the governmental coalition until NATO's summit), announced: "I do not hide that we must proceed on a international usage name's change, with some type of addition, which in no way must put our values under question. I do not want to proceed in an auction with the name, because that will be very damaging also for the interests of the neighboring country that disputes it." He added that "the overwhelming majority of the state and the scholars, ask for a solution and for a way out, using something that does not put our identity and our cultural distinction under questioning. I think that such a solution can be found, especially if the greatest lobbyists and supporters of ours, the United States, declare that Macedonia will be safe, with a safe territorial integrity, with financial support and dynamic development. If we declare which name we support, probably there will be more terms".<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2 />

However, governing [[VMRO-DPMNE]] party leader, and current prime minister, [[Nikola Gruevski]], when asked to comment on these statements, said: "We have different views with Mr.Petkovski, however there is still time to overcome these differences and reach a solution which will benefit the country".<ref name= compromisevoices /><ref name=comprvoc2 />

Centre-left Greek newspaper ''[[To Vima]]'' reported that the two countries were close to an agreement on the basis of the name "New Macedonia" or the untranslated native form, "Nova Makedonija".<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.tovimadaily.gr//Article.aspx?d=20080321&nid=7901142&sn=&spid=|title=Πιθανή συμφωνία στο «Νέα Μακεδονία» (''Possible agreement on "New Macedonia"'')|work=[[To Vima]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-21}}</ref>

Another meeting under the auspices of UN mediator [[Matthew Nimetz]] was held in New York on 25 March 2008.<ref name=geoMk >[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76795 Skai News], "Όνομα με γεωγραφική διάσταση" (''"Name with a geographic dimension"''), Retrieved on 2008-03-26.</ref> Nimetz announced his final proposal, with a name "with a geographic dimension, and for all purposes".<ref name=geoMk /> He also noted that the proposal is a compromise, and that the ways of implementation are also included in his proposal. The two representatives will urgently return to their countries for consultation on this proposal, given the short timeframe until NATO's summit.<ref name=geoMk /> According to the latest Greek media reports, Nimetz revived his 2005 proposal, "Republic of Macedonia-Skopje".
<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=76800|title=Νέα ονομασία (''New name'')|work=[[Skai TV|ΣΚΑΪ.gr]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-26}}</ref> The news agency for Macedonian private television station [[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1]] reported that the full proposal was:
*The constitutional name, in Cyrillic ("Република Македонија") could be used for internal purposes.
*"Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" would be used for international relations.
*For bilateral relations, "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)" is suggested, and any countries using the state's constitutional name would be encouraged to use it, but not forced to change it.
*The terms "Macedonia" and "Macedonian", on their own, would be able to be used freely by both countries
The Macedonian government has not yet issued a statement on whether the proposal has been accepted or rejected.<ref>{{citenews|http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=91146|title=Нимиц предложи формула за решавање на спорот (''Nimetz proposes a formula for solving the dispute'')|work=[[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1 News]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis told journalists that the proposal does not meet Greece's stated objectives.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8777&pubid=728559|title=Δεν ικανοποιεί την Ελλάδα η πρόταση (''The proposal does not satisfy Greece'')|work=[[Ethnos (newspaper)|Ethnos]]|language=Greek|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=91130|title=Бакојани: Предлогот е далеку од целите на Грција (''The proposal is far from the objectives of Greece'')|work=[[A1 (Macedonian TV channel)|A1 News]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

The Macedonian foreign minister, Antonio Milošoski, stated that any reasonable solution that did not impose on the identity of ethnic Macedonians would be explored. However, he also stated that if Greece were to veto the country's entrance into NATO, compromise talks would be stopped.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=4EF69757C67A414BB0E4B6373240DF8C|title=Македонија подготвена за разумен компромис (''Macedonia prepared for a reasonable compromise'')|work=[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|Dnevnik newspaper]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=0&EditionID=964&ArticleID=51657|title=Има мала надеж за компромис (''There is still small hope for a compromise'')|work=[[Nova Makedonija (newspaper)|Nova Makedonija]]|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref><ref>{{citenews|http://www.vest.com.mk/default.asp?id=149257&idg=8&idb=2333&rubrika=Makedonija|title=Грчко вето ќе ги прекине преговорите (''A Greek veto will stop the negotiations'')|work=Vest|language=Macedonian|date=2008-03-26}}</ref>

Meanwhile, police in Skopje said they were investigating death threats against academics, journalists and politicians who publicly favour reaching a compromise in the dispute with Greece.<ref>{{citenews|url=http://iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/27/europe/EU-GEN-Macedonia-Death-Threats.php|title=Macedonia police examine death threats over name dispute|work=[[International Herald Tribune]]|date=2008-03-27}}</ref>

===NATO non-invitation===
{{seealso|2008 Bucharest summit}}

On 3 April 2008, in [[NATO]]'s [[2008 Bucharest summit|summit in Bucharest]], Greece presented its case on the non-invitation of the republic. NATO secretary general [[Jaap de Hoop Scheffer]] announced the mutually agreed text of the NATO members, which included the following points:

* Reason for no invitation was the inability to find solution in the name dispute
* Open invitation to the government of Skopje for new negotiations for the name under the auspices of the United Nations,
* The wish that those negotiations start as soon as possible
* And the further wish that they are concluded as soon as possible, without mentioning a specific time frame.<ref name=NewData>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=77661 Skai News], Νέα δεδομένα μετά το βέτο (''New situation after veto'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D77661&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 machine translation in English]), retrieved on 2008-04-03.</ref><ref name=Mega-2008-04-03>[http://www.megatv.com/gegonota/shownews.asp?id=31270&cat=1 Mega channel], ΝΑΤΟ: Μόνο με λύση η πρόσκληση (''NATO: Invitation only after solution'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.megatv.com%2Fgegonota%2Fshownews.asp%3Fid%3D31270%26cat%3D1&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 machine translation in English]), retrieved on 2008-04-03.</ref><ref name=NATOdecl>NATO 2008 Bucharest summit, [http://www.summitbucharest.ro/en/doc_202.html Bucharest Summit Declaration Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008] (par.20), Retrieved on 2008-04-13.</ref>

A major concern cited by Greek officials was a number of maps that have circulated by nationalist groups based in Skopje depicting parts of Greece (including Thessaloniki, Greece's second largest city) as being part of a future [[United Macedonia]], and the country's prime minister photographed laying a wreath under such a map just a few weeks before the summit.<ref>Greece, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/280308_alp_1640.htm Interview of FM Ms. Bakoyannis in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, with journalist Michael Martens]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>[[Dora Bakoyannis|Bakoyannis, Dora]], [[Wall Street Journal]], ''[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120701620662579369.html All in a Name]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>''[http://www.greeksoccer.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=235052139&mode=threaded&pid=1052837018 the picture at Greeksoccer.com]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> Also a poster displayed in Skopje just days before the Bucharest summit by an artist replacing the white cross on the [[Flag of Greece|Greek flag]] with the [[swastika]], as a way of comparing modern Greece to [[Nazi Germany]].<ref>[[The Daily Telegraph|Telegraph.co.uk]], [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/02/wmacedonia102.xml Macedonia row overshadows NATO summit]</ref> and caricatures of Greek PM Karamanlis depicted wearing a Nazi SS uniform,<ref>[[International Herald Tribune]], ''[http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/02/europe/EU-GEN-Greece-Macedonia-NATO.php Greece insists Macedonia will not be invited to join NATO if name issue is not resolved]'', retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> led to vigorous Greek diplomatic protests and international condemnation,<ref>[http://www.in.gr/innews/article.asp?lngEntityID=887497 in.gr] Στη «μάχη του Βουκουρεστίου» για το όνομα της ΠΓΔΜ ο Κ.Καραμανλής (''C. Karamanlis to "Bucharest's battle" for FYROM's name'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.in.gr%2Finnews%2Farticle.asp%3FlngEntityID%3D887497&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref><ref>[http://international.ibox.bg/news/id_2028157717 News.bg], Olli Rehn Condemns the Language of Hatred Against Greece and Bulgaria in Macedonian Media, retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> although the government disassociated itself from the depictions and expressed it has no connection and no authority over artists' works.<ref>[[BBC News]], [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7324510.stm Greek fury over swastika poster]</ref>

According to media reports, the Greek position was strongly supported by France and Spain. Italy, Portugal, [[Luxembourg]], [[Iceland]], Belgium, Hungary, [[Slovakia]], and the Netherlands also showed understanding to the Greek concerns.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 /><ref>''[[Eleftherotypia]]'', [http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=04.04.2008,id=86594016 Η επιμονή Μπους και η αλληλεγγύη των Ευρωπαίων στην Ελλάδα] (''Bush's insistence and the European support to Greece''), retrieved on 2008-04-05.</ref><ref>''[[Eleftherotypia]]'', [http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint?q=%D3%EA%FC%F0%E9%E1&a=&id=15246048 Αρνηση, χωρίς χρονοδιάγραμμα και με ήπιες αντιδράσεις] (''Refusal, without time frame and with moderate reactions''), retrieved on 2008-04-05.</ref>

The US proposal for inviting the country under its UN provisional reference (FYROM) was backed by [[Turkey]], [[Slovenia]], the Czech Republic, [[Estonia]], [[Lithuania]], Denmark, [[Bulgaria]], and Norway.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 />

Germany, the United Kingdom, and Canada were reported neutral.<ref name=Mega-2008-04-03 />

According to polls, 95% of Greeks consider that the veto was a correct action, while only 1% oppose it.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=77905 Skai News], Σωστό το βέτο για το 95% (''Veto correct for 95%'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D77905&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), retrieved on 2008-04-06.</ref> At the same time, Greece maintains its focus on promoting its neighbour's NATO and EU accession as soon as the naming issue is resolved.<ref>[http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080429/COMMENTARY/877032880 Washington Times], In the name of a common future, Retrieved on 2008-04-30.</ref>

===A continuing negotiation===

The [[Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia]] voted on 11 April 2008 to dissolve itself and hold [[Macedonian parliamentary election, 2008|early elections]] within sixty days.<ref>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=78540 Skai News], Πρόωρες εκλογές στη ΠΓΔΜ (''Early elections in FYROM'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D78540&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), Retrieved on 2008-04-12.</ref> Following a meeting with the four major parties, president [[Branko Crvenkovski]] announced the continuation of the negotiations for the name, despite the parliament dissolution.<ref name=NegCont>[http://www.skai.gr/master_story.php?id=78533 Skai News], Συνεχίζονται οι διαπραγματεύσεις (''Negotiations continue'' [http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skai.gr%2Fmaster_story.php%3Fid%3D78533&langpair=el%7Cen&hl=el&ie=UTF8 English machine translation]), Retrieved on 2008-04-12.</ref> The parties agreed that the dispute should not be a matter of heavy political debate before the elections.<ref name=NegCont />

Matthew Nimetz visited Skopje on 17 April 2008 and Athens on the following day, initiating a new cycle of negotiations, but without bearing a new proposal yet.<ref name=NegCont />

Talks continued in New York from 30 April to 2 May 2008, though Nimetz again did not propose a new compromise name.<ref>[http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/newsbriefs/setimes/newsbriefs/2008/04/30/nb-03 Southeast European Times], ''Macedonia, Greece continue name dispute talks in New York'', Retrieved on 2008-05-27.</ref>

===The newest proposal and reactions===

According to ethnic Macedonian and Greek media, the main points of the proposal from 8 October 2008 are the following<ref>[[Dnevnik (Skopje)|]], ''[http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/default.asp?ItemID=5C24E9C6AE578B45B4AAB7E8C30E2BE7 Интегралната верзија на предлог-документот од медијаторот Нимиц]'' (Comprehensive version on name-documents by mediator Nimetz), Retrieved on 2008-10-10.</ref>:<ref>[[Ta Nea]], ''[http://www.tanea.gr/default.asp?pid=2&ct=1&artId=1403491 Παράθυρο για διπλή ονομασία]'' (Α window for double naming), Retrieved on 2008-10-10.</ref>

*the name "Republic of Macedonia" will stay the official name inside the country (in the native language)
*the name for the country in all official purposes (i.e. [[United Nations]], [[EU]], [[NATO]]) will be "Republic of North Macedonia" ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: Република Северна Македонија)
*UN Security Council will suggest to third countries to use the name "Republic of North Macedonia" in official bilateral relations
*the name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" will no more be an acceptable name for the country
*"Macedonia" alone cannot be used by any of the two parties as an official name for the country or the region.
*Both parties can use "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" in unofficial settings, with the precondition that they will not claim exclusive rights of any kind.

*the frontpage of the [[Macedonian passport]]s will contain the following names for the country:
**''Republic of North Macedonia'' in English
**''République de Macédoine du Nord'' in French
**''Република Македонија'' in [[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]
*Greece will support the integration of its neighbouring country into [[EU]] and [[NATO]]
*both countries will confirm that they have no territorial claims towards each other

=====Reaction by ethnic Macedonian politicians/diplomats=====

The cabinet of the [[President of the Republic of Macedonia]], [[Branko Crvenkovski]], announced that the Republic of Macedonia wants "serious changes" in the latest proposal and that the presented set of ideas could not be a basis for the resolution of the dispute. Prime minister [[Nikola Gruevski]] agreed with Crvenkovski.<ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=127775&NrIssue=788&NrSection=10 Makfax Online, internet daily newspaper],</ref>

=====Reaction by Greek politicians/diplomats=====

The English edition of the Greek newspaper Kathimerini reported that Greek diplomats, privately, have welcomed the proposals. Greek Foreign Minister [[Dora Bakoyannis]], however, has not yet made a comment on the newest set of proposals. It is also said, that Athens will not state its position before Skopje.<ref>[http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100002_10/10/2008_101178 Kathimerini, English edition]</ref> In the mean time, all major opposition parties have already expressed serious concerns about the proposal since it crosses the "red line" that Greece has set on a single name to be used ''[[erga omnes]]''.<ref>[http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=945957&lngDtrID=244 in.gr (in Greek)]</ref>

Before either Athens or Skopje had officially responded to the proposal, the Athenian daily ''Ethnos'' published an alleged secret diplomatic correspondence of the [[United States Department of State|US State Department]]. The leaked document, originally tagged as classified until 2018,<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8333&pubid=1738592|title=«Θα τα περάσουμε όλα σιωπηλά» ("We will get everything through quietly")|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> was said to detail a behind-the-scenes deal between Washington and Skopje on the main provisions of the Nimetz proposal as early as July.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8777&pubid=1738591|title=Οι ιδέες ήταν τελικά της Ράις (The ideas were ultimately Rice's)|last=Meletis|first=Nikos|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> According to the newspaper, the latest UN-sponsored set of ideas were secretly sketched to please Skopje by the US Secretary of State [[Condoleezza Rice]] three months earlier.<ref name="Balkan Insight">{{cite news|url=http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14100/|title=Macedonia Denies ‘Secret Work’ with US|date=2008-10-20|work=[[Balkan Insight]]|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref> The report sparked outrage in Greece, with opposition parties accusing the government of tolerating "US interference" in the UN mediation process and calling for Greece's withdrawal from the negotiations.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8333&pubid=1742569|title=Απροκάλυπτη παρέμβαση (Blatant interference)|date=2008-10-19|work=Ethnos|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-10-20}}</ref> Skopje "strongly and categorically" denied all claims of the existence of a secret deal with Washington.<ref name="Balkan Insight"/>

===The UN International Court of Justice===
In November 2008, Skopje referred Athens to the [[International Court of Justice]] for what it called a "flagrant violation" of Greece's obligations under the 1995 Interim Accord.<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=318&id=480 Republic of Macedonia Ministry of Foreign Affairs: "Greece objected to extending an invitation to Macedonia to join NATO, in flagrant violation of its obligations under the Interim Accord.
</ref> An outcome could take up to five years.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14845/ "BREAKING: Macedonia Takes Greece to World Court"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-actualite/marches/update-macedonia-sues-greece-for-blocking-nato-entry-563320 "UPDATE: Macedonia Sues Greece For Blocking NATO Entry"] ''easybourse.com'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=132181&NrIssue=822&NrSection=10 "Macedonia seeks for justice over Greek veto in ICJ"] ''makfax.com.mk'' [[17 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 17/11/08</ref> In response, Greece issued a statement condemning its northern neighbour for "confirming that it is not interested in a solution", adding that "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has itself flagrantly violated a series of fundamental obligations expressly foreseen by the Accord, including the fundamental principle of good neighbourly relations."<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_kathremote_1_17/11/2008_256566|title=Κουμουτσάκος: Η ΠΓΔΜ επιβεβαιώνει ότι δεν ενδιαφέρεται για επίλυση (''Koumoutsakos: FYROM confirms that it is not interested in a solution'')|date=2008-11-17|work=[[Kathimerini]]|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-11-18}}</ref><ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14871/ "Greece Pans Macedonia Over World Court Bid"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[18 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 18/11/08</ref> The prime minister of the Republic of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski announced on 25 November that the "name negotiations resume despite Macedonia’s lawsuit against Greece".<ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1733 Macedonian Government website</ref> The EU has so far not commented on the latest situation.<ref>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14879/ "EU Quiet on Macedonia’s World Court Bid"] ''[[Balkan Insight|balkaninsight.com]]'' [[18 November]] [[2008]] Link accessed 18/11/08</ref>. Reinforcing the Greek position that in the summit of Bucharest there was no veto, on the 21st of November in a conference in Skopje, the Czech representative in NATO Štefan Füle reiterated that there has not been a veto from Greece but a consensus on non-invitation.<ref>http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59315063&lId=2</ref> At the end of November, the Republic of Macedonia appointed [[Zoran Jolevski]] as the new negotiator to the name talks with Greece.<ref>http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=30&vId=59566878&lId=2&title=MACEDONIA+-+FOREIGN+AFFAIRS+</ref>

The Gruevski government's decision to pursue legal action against Athens was criticised by President [[Branko Crvenkovski]], highlighting the internal tensions in Skopje between the government and the presidency. Noting that the process could take years, the president called it a "waste of valuable time", given that there was no way for the World Court to enforce any verdict in Skopje's favour.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_kathremote_1_01/12/2008_258435|title=Τσερβένκοφσκι: Χάσιμο χρόνου η προσφυγή στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο (''Crvenkovski: Recourse to the World Court a waste of time'')|date=2008-12-01|work=[[Kathimerini]]|language=Greek|accessdate=2008-12-01}}</ref>

===Talks in 2009===
The first round of name talks in 2009 took place on 11 February.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=30&vId=62064882&lId=2&title=MACEDONIA+-+FOREIGN+AFFAIRS+ Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> The UN Mediator Nimetz did not propose a new solution for the name row, but it was agreed that talks should continue after elections in Greece and the Republic of Macedonia, probably in July or August.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=62247087&lId=2&pmId=501 Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> Republic of Macedonia's new name negotiator [[Zoran Jolevski]] told the mediator and the Greek negotiator that if the Republic of Macedonia would receive a [[NATO]] membership invitation at the Alliance's next summit in April, this would be positive for the name talks.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=62247087&lId=2&pmId=501 Macedonian Information Agency]</ref> One week before the fresh name talks, Macedonian foreign minister [[Antonio Milošoski]] told [[Germany|German]] newspaper ''"[[die tageszeitung]]"'' that a solution could be found "only on bilateral basis". The Republic of Macedonia indicated it could be ready to allow Greece to use another name for the country, such as ''"Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)"'', however, the Macedonian citizens would decide on a referendum for that.<ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/2273 Macedonian Government web site]</ref> In addition, foreign minister [[Antonio Milošoski]] sent a letter to the Greek foreign ministry with a proposal of forming a joint committee of scholars from both countries who would work on determining the historical facts of the dispute. However, the proposals was rejected by Athens.<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=63394599&lId=2 Macedonian Information Agency -Greece rejects FM Milososki's initiative ]</ref>

====CSIS Conference====
On April 14, 2009, at the [[Center for Strategic and International Studies]] Conference on the topic of Completing America's Mission in the Balkans moderated by [[Janusz Bugajski]], the Ambassador of Macedonia H.E. [[Zoran Jolevski]] stated the following <blockquote>
"Greece, in essence, moved the goal posts further away, and our fear is that they will continue to move the goal posts again, and again, and again. The question then becomes, will they stop? Because, dear friends, the dignity and identity of an entire nation is at stake here that cannot be compromised."
</blockquote>

Later on, they moved into an open discussion where the Greek Ambassador in the US [[Alexandros Mallias]] stated that Greece would accept the last proposal by the UN Mediator [[Matthew Nimetz]] which is to Macedonia to be called "Republic of Northern Macedonia" in the international society.<ref>[http://makfax.com.mk/en-us/Details.aspx?ItemID=3097 Makfax News Agency of Macedonia - Greece - Good proposal over name finally on table]</ref>

==Lists of countries and organisations==
===Lists of countries===
World map with countries/entities using Republic of Macedonia or the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

[[Image:MacedoniaNameDisputeMap.svg|thumb|center|650px|List of countries/entities {{legend|yellow|Republic of Macedonia / former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.}} {{legend|#7ca4e0|that use "Republic of Macedonia" in bilateral diplomatic relations.}} {{legend|#E1867C|that use "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes.}} {{legend|#A9A9A9|that have no official position on the issue.}}]]

{{MultiCol}}

====List of countries/entities using "Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes
====List of countries/entities using "Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes====
As of February 2008, up to 125 countries recognise the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.<ref>{{cite web | title = FM Milososki: Name row a result of Greece's desire to protect its myth of pure nation | url = http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/2273 Government of the Republic of Macedonia | quote = the fact that 125 countries in the world have recognised Macedonia's constitutional name is a clear signal that the country has international support }}</ref>

Four of the five permanent [[UN Security Council]] members:
* {{flag|United States of America}} ([[NATO]] and [[G8]] member ): The federal government uses "Republic of Macedonia",<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/26759.htm | title=Background Note: Macedonia | accessdate=2007-09-08}}</ref> while the [[United States Congress|US Congress]] uses the mixed designation "Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)".<ref>NATO {{cite web | url=http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.494.ENR: | title=NATO Freedom Consolidation Act of 2007 (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate) | accessdate = 2007-06-12}}</ref>
* {{flag|United Kingdom}} ([[EU]], NATO and G8 member)<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1019233917528 | title=Country Profiles: Republic of Macedonia | accessdate=2007-09-08}}</ref>
* {{flag|People's Republic of China}}<ref>{{cite web|url=http://english.people.com.cn/english/200106/18/eng20010618_72901.html| title=People's daily |work=China, Macedonia Sign Joint Communique on Normalization of Relations |accessdate=2007-01-02}}</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/974 Government of the Republic of Macedonia]</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = Interview of President of Macedonia, Crvenkovski for Xinhua | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=6&InfoID=3110 web site of the President of Macedonia | quote = China’s recognition and establishment of diplomatic relations with our country under our constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Russia}} (G8 member)<ref>[http://www.mid.ru/zu_r.nsf/e0f3cd1a55ff248dc32571e7003f460b/909fdd5998c7c8c3c32565e800360468?OpenDocument Russian Embassy in the Republic of Macedonia]</ref>

All states formerly part of [[SFR Yugoslavia]]:
* {{flag|Bosnia-Herzegovina}} <ref name="CEFTA">[http://www.stabilitypact.org/trade/Cefta%20Agreement%20Amendment%20of%20and%20Accession%20to%20the%20Central%20European%20Free%20Trade%20Agreement%20-%20Preamble.pdf CEFTA 2006 text, signed by "the Republic of Macedonia" and "the Republic of Montenegro"], ''Stability Pact for Southeast Europe'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Croatia}} (NATO member) <ref name="CEFTA"/><ref>{{cite web | url= http://www.mvpei.hr/MVP.asp?pcpid=13&dmid=127#pocdrz |title=Ministarstvo vanjsklh poslova I europsklh integracija |work= Republika Makedonija - Uspostava diplomatskih odnosa: 30.3.1992 | accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1179 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Kosovo}}<ref name="Kosova">{{cite web|url=http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=57799927&lId=2&pmId=502|title=Hyseni: Kosovo recognizes Macedonia's constitutional name|date=2008-10-13|work=MIA - Macedonian Information Agency|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref>
* {{flag|Montenegro}} <ref name="CEFTA"/>
* {{flag|Serbia}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.rs/Policy/Bilaterala/Macedonia/basic_e.html Republic of Serbia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Slovenia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title=Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Slovenia | work=Macedonia |accessdate=2007-01-02 | url= http://www.mzz.gov.si/index.php?id=539&L=2}}</ref>

In addition, the following countries have also recognised the nation by its constitutional name:
* {{flag|Algeria}}<ref>[http://193.194.78.233/ma_fr/stories.php?story=04/05/19/6156295 Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres - Republique Algerienne Democratique et Populaire]</ref>
* {{flag|Argentina}}<ref>Argentine Ministry of Foreign Affairs ''[http://www.mrecic.gov.ar/portal/repre_argentinas/plantilla.php?id=87&concurrencia=113 Embassy of Macedonia in Sofia, Bulgaria]''</ref>
* {{flag|Austria}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.bmeia.gv.at/aussenministerium/buergerservice/oesterreichische-vertretungen.html?no_cache=1 Diplomatic representation], [http://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/foreign-ministry/foreign-policy/voelkerrecht/treaties-in-german/bilateral-treaties-in-german.html?ADMCMD_view=1&LNG=de&dv_name=Mazedonien&dv_staat=0&mode=country&submit=1&vb_vp_id=261&cHash=19e87fb504 Bilateral agreements]</ref>
* {{flag|Azerbaijan}}<ref>[http://azembassy.com.my/links/index.htm Diplomatic Missions of Azerbaijan]</ref>
* {{flag|Belarus}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.by/ru/about/foreign_missions/ Foreign Diplomatic Missions in Belarus]</ref>
* {{flag|Bolivia}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gov.bo/webmre/documentos/Servicios/d48.htm Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Culture (Bolivia)]</ref>
* {{flag|Botswana}}<ref>[http://www.mofaic.gov.bw/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=207&Itemid=193 Ministry Of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation - Botswana]</ref>
* {{flag|Brunei Darussalam}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.bn/overseas_missions/20070804a.htm Ministry of Foreign Affairs & Trade - Brunei Darussalam]</ref>
* {{flag|Bulgaria}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=BulgRec>[http://www.mfa.bg/bg/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14329&Itemid=382 Bulgarian Ministry of Foreign Affairs], ''Diplomatic Relations - Macedonia.'' Retrieved on 2007-01-25</ref>
* {{flag|Cambodia}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Cambodia | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Cambodia/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Cambodia established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name on 2nd October 1996 }}</ref>
* {{flag|Canada}} (NATO and G8 member) <ref name=CanadianMFA>Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada, ''[http://geo.international.gc.ca/cip-pic/geo/macedonia-en.aspx Country and Regional Information: Macedonia]'', Retrieved on 2007-09-20</ref><ref name=A1News>(Macedonian) A1 News, ''[http://a1.com.mk/vesti/default.asp?VestID=84094 Канада ја призна Македонија под уставното име]'', Retrieved on 2007-09-20</ref>
* {{flag|Chile}}<ref name="Chile = 124th">{{cite web|url=http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1026|title=Macedonia establishes diplomatic relations with Chile under constitutional name|date=2008-09-18|publisher=Government of the Republic of Macedonia|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref><ref>[http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=24202 Foreign Ministry Special Representative tours Latin American countries to brief local governments on the FYROM name issue]</ref>
* {{flag|Costa Rica}}<ref>[http://www.rree.go.cr/promocion/index.php?stp=133 Costa Rican Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Cuba}}<ref>[http://europa.cubaminrex.cu/Actualidad/Breves%20Diplomaticas/2007/Marzo.htm#47 Cuban Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Czech Republic}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=CzechMFA>[http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/mzv/default.asp?id=59730&ido=7904&idj=2&amb=1 Consular department of the Embassy of the Czech Republic in Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Ecuador}}<ref>[http://www.mmrree.gov.ec/mre/documentos/pol_internacional/bilateral/europa_macedonia.htm]</ref>
* {{flag|El Salvador}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gob.sv/sitio/sitiowebrree.nsf/pages/spolext_paisesconrelacionesdiplomaticas Ministry of Foreign Affairs of El Salvador]</ref>
* {{flag|Estonia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=EstonianMFA>[http://www.vm.ee/eng/kat_176/8678.html Estonian government website], Retrieved on 2008-09-13; [http://vlepingud.vm.ee/en/contract_view/2051 Bilateral agreements]</ref>
* {{flag|Honduras}}<ref>[http://www.sre.hn/tramitessj_paises.html]</ref>
* {{flag|Hungary}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.mfa.gov.hu/kulkepviselet/MK/HU | title=Embassy of the Republic of Hungary |work=Skopje Republic of Macedonia | accessdate= 2007-01-20}}</ref><ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59875204&lId=2&pmId=501 Hungary strongly supports Macedonia on name, visa liberalization issues]</ref>
* {{flag|Iceland}} (NATO member)<ref>[http://www.utanrikisraduneyti.is/sendi-og-raedisskrifstofur/erlendar/ Ministry for Foreign Affairs - Iceland]</ref>
* {{flag|India}}<ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58069371&lId=2&pmId=501 India uses constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia in bilateral communication]</ref>
* {{flag|Iran}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ir/cms/cms/Tehran/en/Mission/Europe.html Ministry of foreign affairs of Iran]</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = President's meeting with the new ambassadors of Iran, Malaysia, Afghanistan and Iceland | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?InfoID=318&SectionID=10 web site of the President of Macedonia| quote = Iran is among the most influential countries in the region of the Near East, and a country that established diplomatic relations with the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Ireland}} (EU member)<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Ireland | url = http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Europe/Relationships+with+EU+Member+States/Ireland/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Ireland recently decided to use FYROMs constitutional name exclusively for bilateral relations }}</ref>
* {{flag|Kazakhstan}}<ref>[http://portal.mfa.kz/portal/page/portal/mfa/en/content/news/nws2006/2006-09-23 Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Kazakhstan]</ref>
* {{flag|Kuwait}}<ref>{{cite web | title = President Branko Crvenkovski received the letters of credence from the new Ambassadors of Kuwait, Estonia and Portugal | url = http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=2&InfoID=922 President of the Republic of Macedonia web site | quote = Kuwait was among the first countries from the Gulf to have established diplomatic relations with the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Kyrgyzstan}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.kg/diplomatic-missions-in-kr/dip-in-kr-3_kg.html Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Kyrgyz Republic]</ref>
* {{flag|Laos}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Laos | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Laos/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Laos established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name on 6 March 1996 }}</ref>
* {{flag|Liechtenstein}}<ref>[http://www.liechtenstein.li/en/pdf-fl-staat-aussenpolitik-multilateral-dipl-vertretungen.pdf Diplomatic Missions to the Principality of Liechtenstein]</ref>
*{{flag|Lithuania}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name="veremis"/><ref>[http://www.urm.lt/index.php?679327484 Bilateral treaties], [http://www.urm.lt/popup2.php?tmpl_name=m_urm_lt_embassy&m_urm_country_id=59 Diplomatic mission],[http://www.urm.lt/popup2.php?tmpl_name=m_urm_for_embassy&m_urm_country_id=70 Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia] (accessed 3 October 2008)</ref>
* {{flag|Malaysia}}<ref>[http://www.kln.gov.my/?m_id=1&c_id=72&s_id=43 Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Malaysia]</ref><ref>[http://www.kln.gov.my/perwakilan/bucharest/news/1190 Embassy of Malaysia, Bucharest]</ref>
* {{flag|Maldives}}<ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.mv/v2/menu.php?menu=3&submenu=Bilateral%20Relations Republic of Maldives - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Moldova}} <ref name=MoldRec>[http://www.stabilitypact.org/trade/fta-mou/mol-mac.pdf Free Trade Agreement between the Government of the Republic of Moldova and the Government of the Republic of Macedonia], ''Stability Pact for Southeast Europe'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Mongolia}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.mn/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=85&lang=en Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Mongolia]</ref>
* {{flag|Morocco}} <ref name=MFA-Morocco>[http://www.maec.gov.ma/fr/fiche.asp?num=3720 Exchange of letters concerning the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries] Moroccan Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Retrieved on 2008-10-01</ref>
* {{flag|Myanmar}} (Burma)<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Burma | url = http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Burma/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = Burma has established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Nauru}}<ref>[http://www.un.int/nauru/foreignaffairs.html Department of Foreign Affairs - Republic of Nauru]</ref>
* {{flag|Nepal}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.np/diplomaticaz.php Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Nepal]</ref>
* {{flag|Nigeria}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ng/newsitem34.html Ministry of foreign affairs of Nigeria]</ref>
* {{flag|Oman}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.om/mofa/bilateral_continent.asp?cont=6 Sultanate of Oman - Ministry of Foreign Affairs using 'republic of macedonia']</ref>
* {{flag|Paraguay}} <ref name=DW>[http://www.deutsche-welle.de/dw/article/0,2144,2858800,00.html Deutsche Welle], Retrieved on 2008-09-22</ref>
* {{flag|Poland}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.msz.gov.pl/Polish,Missions,Abroad,2143.html?PHPSESSID=fe037956eab58817a34e2f3280fc37ff Polish Missions Abroad]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-12</ref><ref>Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.msz.gov.pl/M-S,2147.html?PHPSESSID=fe037956eab58817a34e2f3280fc37ff Foreign Embassies in Poland]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58537761&lId=2&pmId=501 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Qatar}}<ref>[http://english.mofa.gov.qa/details_consul.cfm?Id=394&type=local Embassy of Republic of Macedonia in The state of Qatar]</ref>
* {{flag|Romania}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=FMoR>[http://www.mae.ro/index.php?unde=doc&id=158&idlnk=5&cat=6 Romanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, The Romanian Missions], Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref><ref>[http://www.mae.ro/index.php?unde=doc&id=1170&idlnk=5&cat=6 Romanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Foreign Missions], Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref><ref>[http://skopje.mae.ro/index.php?lang=ro&id=14871 Romanian Embassy in the Republic of Macedonia] Retrieved on 2008-05-01</ref>
* {{flag|Saint Kitts and Nevis}}<ref>[http://gip.gov.kn/ct.asp?xItem=237&ctNode=215&mp=6 St. Christopher (St. Kitts) and Nevis, Ministry of F. Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Saint Lucia}}<ref>[http://www.stlucia.gov.lc/faq/do_i_need_a_visa_to_enter_saint_lucia.htm#Require_Visas List of countries which need visa]</ref>
* {{flag|Saudi Arabia}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=4173&InNewsItemID=36770 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref><ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=3985&InNewsItemID=70063 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Singapore}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Singapore | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Singapore/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 8 May 1995 Singapore established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Slovakia}} (EU and NATO member)<ref>[http://www.mfa.sk/zu/index/podstranka.php?id=1401 Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Slovak Republic - Bilateral Relations - Republic of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Sovereign Military Order of Malta}}<ref>[http://www.orderofmalta.org/site/attdiplomatica.asp?idlingua=5 Order of Malta - Bilateral relations with countries]</ref>
* {{flag|Sri Lanka}}<ref>[http://www.slmfa.gov.lk//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=1 Sri Lanka Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Sweden}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/5616#M Government Offices of Sweden - Embassies and consulates]</ref>
* {{flag|Switzerland}}<ref>[http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/reps/eur/vmkd/embsko.html Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Switzerland]</ref>
* {{flag|Thailand}}<ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Thailand | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Thailand/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 23 January 2005 Thailand established diplomatic relations with FYROM under its constitutional name }}</ref>
* {{flag|Turkey}} (NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title=NATO Update - Week of 9-15 June 1999 | accessdate=2007-09-18 | url= http://www.nato.int/docu/update/1999/0609e.htm}}</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.tr/turkey_s-political-relations-with-republic-of-macedonia.en.mfa Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref>
* {{flag|Ukraine}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/ua/publication/content/1779.htm Ambassador of the Republic of Macedonia to Ukraine]</ref><ref>[http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1455 Government site of the R. of Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Uzbekistan}}<ref>[http://mfa.uz/eng/inter_cooper/uzbekistan_countries/countries_eu/uzb_macedonia/ Relations between Uzbekistan and Macedonia - Ministry o. F. Affairs of the Republic of Uzbekistan]</ref>
* {{flag|Vietnam}}<ref>[http://www.mofa.gov.vn/en/cn_vakv/euro/nr040819111555/ns070919140054 Vietnam-Macedonia relations] Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs</ref><ref>{{cite web | title = Bilateral relations between Greece and Vietnam | url = http://www.ypex.gov.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/Vietnam/ Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs | quote = On 10 June 1994, Vietnam established diplomatic links with FYROM under its constitutional name}}</ref>

{{ColBreak}}

====List of countries/entities using "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes====
* {{flag|Australia}} <ref name=AUmfa>Australian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.dfat.gov.au/missions/countries/mk.html Australian Consulate in Skopje, Macedonia, Former Yugoslav Republic of]'', Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Bahrain}}<ref name="Bahrain MFA">{{cite web|url=http://www.mofa.gov.bh/MOFA/En/DeplomaticMission/InternationalRelations6.htm|title=International Relations|publisher=Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Kingdom of Bahrain|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
* {{flag|Belize}}<ref name="Belize MFA">{{cite web|url=http://mfa.gov.bz/library/bze_treaties/bi_lateral.php|title=Index of Belize's Treaties|publisher=Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Belize|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
* {{flag|Belgium}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=BMFA>Federal Public Service: Foreign Affairs: [http://www.diplomatie.be/en/addresses/abroad/otherpostsdetail.asp?POSTE_ID=404 MACEDOINE (EX-REP. YOUGOSLAVE DE)], Retrieved on 2007-04-10</ref>
* {{flag|Cyprus}} (EU member)<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.cy/mfa/embassies/embassy_doha.nsf/DMLfaq_en/DMLfaq_en?OpenDocument Embassy of the Republic of Cyprus in Doha - Visa Applications]2008-04-15</ref>
* {{flag|France}} (EU, NATO, G8 and permanent UN Security Council member)<ref>Base Pacte - Archives of the French Republic,''[http://www.doc.diplomatie.gouv.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/DDD/19930261.pdf Agreement by exchange of letters establishing diplomatic relations between the Government of the French Republic and the Government of the Republic of Macedonia]'', Retrieved on 2008-04-04</ref><ref> French Ministry of Foreign Affairs, france-ancienne-republique-yougoslave-macedoine page</ref><ref>''[http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/pays-zones-geo_833/macedoine-arym_442/france-ancienne-republique-yougoslave-macedoine_1177/relations-politiques_4744/relations-politiques_12153.html]''</ref>
* {{flag|Germany}} (EU, NATO and G8 member) <ref name=GermanMFA>German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, {{de icon}} ''[http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/de/Laenderinformationen/01-Laender/Mazedonien.html Ehemalige jugoslawische Republik Mazedonien]'', Retrieved on 2008-04-15</ref>
* {{flag|Greece}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=GrFA> {{cite web | url= http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/FYROM+-+THE+NAME+ISSUE.htm|title=Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=17 July 2006 | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) — The Name Issue | publisher= | pages= | language=English }}</ref>
* {{flag|Italy}} (EU, NATO and G8 member) <ref name=ItFA> {{cite web | url= http://www.esteri.it/MAE/Templates/SediTemplate.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b90144702-199C-47DD-8FA5-97139E541E48%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMAE%2fEN%2fMinistero%2fRappresentanze%2f&NRCACHEHINT=Guest | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=29 April 2009 | work=Ex Repubblica Jugoslavia Di Macedonia(FYROM) — Embassies and Consulates | publisher= | pages= | language=English<//ref>
* {{flag|Latvia}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=LatvianMFA>[http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/policy/bilateral-relations/4542/Macedonia/ Relations Between Latvia and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|Luxembourg}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=LuxembourgMFA>[http://www.mae.lu/images/biblio/biblio-42-1_vcxuu_660_3156_265.pdf Missions diplomatiques étrangères accréditées au Luxembourg], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Mexico}}<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.sre.gob.mx/csocial/contenido/comunicados/2008/oct/cp_298.html|title=Encuentro entre el Subsecretario Juan Manuel Gómez Robledo y el Sr. Yannis Valinakis, Viceministro de Asuntos Exteriores de Grecia|date=2008-10-17|publisher=México - Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores|language=[[Spanish language|Spanish]]|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref> (Mexico withdrew recognition of constitutional name Oct 2008)<ref name=MexicoWithdraw>[http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14140/ Mexico withdraws recognition of constitutional name], Retrieved on 2008-10-22</ref>
* {{flag|Micronesia}} <ref name=MicroMFA>[http://www.fsmgov.org/diprel.html Countries With Which the Federated States of Micronesia Has Established Diplomatic Relations], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Monaco}}<ref name=MonacoMFA>[http://www.diplomatie.gouv.mc/315Diplomatie/wwwnew.nsf/1909$/afaad54691d027abc125746a004c1e8agb?OpenDocument&2Gb Macédoine], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|New Zealand}}<ref name="New Zealand">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Asia+-+Oceania/Bilateral+Relations/New+Zealand/|title=New Zealand|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|quote=...regarding the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia it recognizes Skopje under the name accepted in recent years by the United Nations.|accessdate=2008-10-24}}</ref>
*{{flag|South Africa}} <ref name=DSA>Department of Foreign Affairs, ''[http://www.dfa.gov.za/foreign/bilateral/fyrom.html FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)]'', Retrieved on 2008-02-15</ref>
* {{flag|Spain}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=SpanishMFA>Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, {{es icon}} ''[http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/ArbolPaises/Macedonia_Falsa/Informacion%20Relacionada/Paginas/relacMacedonia.aspx Ex-República Yugoslava De Macedonia (ERYM)]'', Retrieved on 2007-07-24, [http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/ArbolPaises/ARYMacedonia/Recomendaciones%20de%20viaje/Paginas/recoMacedonia.aspx Antigua-República Yugoslava de Macedonia (ARYM)], Retrieved on 2008-07-24, also uses "A.R.Y. Macedonia"[http://www.maec.es/es/MenuPpal/Paises/Paginas/informacion_representaciones.aspx].</ref>
* {{flagicon|Vatican City}} The [[Holy See]] <ref name=HolySee>[http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_20010123_holy-see-relations_en.html Bilateral and multilateral relations of the Holy See]</ref>

====List of countries/entities to be sorted====
* {{flag|Albania}} (NATO member) <ref name=AlbFC>The Albanian Foreign Service,>''[http://www.km.gov.al/index.php?fq=brenda&r=&gj=gj2&kid=26 Embassy of the Republic of Albania in F.Y.R.O.M]'', Retrieved on 2008-07-25</ref><ref>[http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=125105&NrIssue=767&NrSection=20 Makfax - Internet Daily Newspaper]</ref><ref>"[http://www.km.gov.al/index.php?fq=brenda&m=news&lid=9240 Premier Berisha receives Deputy Premier of Macedonia, Abdilaqim Ademi]"</ref>
* {{flag|Brazil}} <ref name=BrazilianMFA>[http://www.brazil-bg.info/consulate.html Embassy of Brazil in Bulgaria], Retrieved on 2008-09-14</ref><ref>[http://www.abe.mre.gov.br/mundo/america-do-norte/estados-unidos-da-america/chicago/servicos/visas/countries-that-require-visa-to-brazil/ Countries That Require Visa to Brazil], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
*{{flag|Democratic Republic of the Congo}}<ref name="congo">According to Greek sources, Congo announced on 18 October 2008 that it would use the term ''Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'' ({{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/201008_H2015.htm|title=Announcement regarding attempts by FYROM's Foreign Ministry to disseminate misinformation regarding Panama, Mexico and Congo’s stance on the name issue|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-21}}). Macedonian sources denied the statement, citing a Congolese statement that Congo's position had remained unchanged ({{cite web|url=http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14279/|title=Congo: the Latest in Macedonia Name Row|publisher=Balkaninsight|accessdate=2008-10-24}}, {{cite web|url=http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=58101452&lId=2&pmId=501|title=DR Congo doesn’t change position on using Macedonia’s constitutional name|publisher=MIA|accessdate=2008-10-24}}), {{cite web|url=http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/4116/1/|title=Greek Government caught lying to their public, again|publisher=MINA|accessdate=2008-10-24}})</ref>
* {{flag|Czech Republic}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=CzechMFA>[http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/mzv/default.asp?id=59730&ido=7904&idj=2&amb=1 Consular department of the Embassy of the Czech Republic in Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Denmark}} (EU and NATO member)<ref name=DanishMFA>[http://www.um.dk/en/servicemenu/contact/missionsabroad/missionsabroadm.htm MISSIONS ABROAD], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref> <ref name=DanishMFA1>[http://www.um.dk/en/menu/developmentpolicy/danishdevelopmentpolicycountries/theneighbourhoodprogramme/countries/macedoniafyrom DANISH ASSISTANCE TO MACEDONIA (FYROM) UNDER THE NEIGHBOURHOOD PROGRAMME OF THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF DENMARK], Retrieved on 2008-09-14 </ref>
* {{flag|Dominican Republic}}<ref name=DominicanMFA>"[http://www.serex.gov.do/AsuntosConsulares/AsuntosConsulares/visas.htm?mid=9060 LISTADO DE PAISES Y SU CONDICION DE ENTRADA A LA REPUBLICA DOMINICANA]", Retrieved on 2008-09-18 </ref><ref name=DominicanMFA2>[http://www.serex.gov.do/serex%20informa/SerexNo.08.pdf "Serex"], Retrieved on 2008-09-18 </ref>
*{{flag|Egypt}}<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.eg/MFA_Portal/Templates/Alpha_Search_Plus_Results.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b93D47EB3-6273-4215-B383-824EAE08F119%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMFA_Portal%2fen-GB%2fMissions%2fForeign_Missions_in_Egypt%2f&NRCACHEHINT=Guest Foreign Missions in Egypt (English)]2008-09-26</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.eg/MFA_Portal/Templates/Alpha_Search_Plus_Results.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID={9FDED96F-947B-4B89-B9BD-C30094153629}&NRORIGINALURL=%2fMFA_Portal%2ffr-FR%2fMissions%2fForeign_Missions_in_Egypt%2fDefault.htm&NRCACHEHINT=Guest Foreign Missions in Egypt (French)]</ref>
* {{flag|Finland}} (EU member)<ref name="Ministry for Foreign Affairs of Finland">[http://formin.finland.fi/public/default.aspx?nodeid=17382&culture=en-US&contentlan=2 Macedonia], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref>
* {{flag|Guatemala}}<ref>[http://www.minex.gob.gt/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2053&Itemid=132 Guatemalan Ministry of Foreign Affairs]</ref><ref>"[http://www.minex.gob.gt/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1517&Itemid=105 Macedonia, Embajada de la Antigua Républica Yugoslava de]"</ref>
* {{flag|Indonesia}}<ref>[http://www.deplu.go.id/?hotnews_id=1431 Department of Foreign Affairs - Indonesia]</ref><ref>[http://www.deplu.go.id/?category_id=13&country_id=105&bilateral=eropatimur Macedonia/FYROM], Retrieved on 2008-09-13</ref><ref>[http://www.indonesia.hu/ Embassy of Indonesia in Hungary]</ref>
* {{flag|Japan}} (G8 member)<ref>[http://www.mofa.go.jp/about/emb_cons/protocol/i-p.html List of Embassies and Consulates-General in Japan], 2008-09-15</ref><ref>[http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/macedonia/index.html Japan-Macedonia Relations], Retrieved on 2008-09-15</ref>
* {{flag|Lesotho}}<ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.ls/missions/show_missions.php?Country=Italy LESOTHO MISSIONS ABROAD], 2008-09-16</ref><ref>[http://www.foreign.gov.ls/services/default.php CONSULAR SERVICES], Retrieved on 2008-09-16</ref>
* {{flag|Netherlands}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=NLFA>Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, [http://www.mfa.nl/en/europe?continent=europe Missions Abroad], Retrieved on 2007-12-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.nl/sko Embassy of the Netherlands in Skopje]</ref><ref>[http://www.minbuza.nl/nl/ontwikkelingssamenwerking/wereldkaart/landenAZ,Macedonie.html Country profile- Macedonia]</ref>
* {{flag|Norway}} (NATO member)<ref>{{cite web | title = PM Gruevski: Name negotiations resume despite Macedonia’s lawsuit against Greece| url = http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1733 Macedonian Government web site | quote = Norway, which has not recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name, will however always use it in the bilateral relations }}</ref>
* {{flag|Panama}}<ref name="Athens refutes Skopje">{{cite web|url=http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/Articles/en-US/201008_H2015.htm|title=Announcement regarding attempts by FYROM's Foreign Ministry to disseminate misinformation regarding Panama, Mexico and Congo’s stance on the name issue|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-21}}</ref><ref name="Skopje refutes Athens">{{cite web|url=http://mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=318&id=469|title=REACTION TO THE GREEK SPECULATIONS REGARDING THE USE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL NAME OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA BY THIRD COUNTRIES|date=2008-10-20|publisher=Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of Foreign Affairs|accessdate=2008-10-22}}</ref>
* {{flag|Peru}}<ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/boletinInf.nsf/afdaa58f9a4dc40605256e160070d8a9/9aeab09b21d6ad910525735c0070e1b5?OpenDocument]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/aconsular.nsf/0/9F10D80FD06FFF0405256E38005537D3?OpenDocument]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/Pbilateral.nsf/9DAA604E1B36B559052574790061BE01/$FILE/MACEDONIA.pdf]</ref><ref>[http://www.rree.gob.pe/portal/Tratados.nsf/6e698a2aa7c4dd6805256e680056dec7/1eb8ad5549e7d00b052571cc00532453?OpenDocument Visa Agreement between the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and Peru]</ref>
* {{flag|Portugal}} (EU and NATO member) <ref name=Portugal>http://www.portugal.gov.pt/portal/pt/directorio/europa Conselho da Europa - Antiga República Jugoslava da Macedónia]</ref><ref>[http://antigo.mdn.gov.pt/Defesa/Operacoes/macedonia.htm]</ref><ref>[http://srec.azores.gov.pt/dre/alunos/Basico_DEPEB/ProgramasEspecificos/Prog%20Cidadania%20e%20Mundo%20Actual.pdf]</ref>

====List of countries/entities that do not use either appellation consistently====
The following states have inconsistent official references to the country, using both names:
* {{flag|Israel}} <ref name=IsraeliMFA>Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Sherut/IsraeliAbroad/Continents/Europe/ Europe], Retrieved on 2007-12-12</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Treaties/Israel+Bilateral+agreements/ Bilateral agreements]</ref><ref>[http://mexico-city.mfa.gov.il/mfm/Web/main/document.asp?documentid=109765 Ambassador accredited to Macedonia]</ref><ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Sherut/IsraeliAbroad/Continents/Europe/FYROM/]</ref>

The following countries/entities have no diplomatic relations with the state<ref>[http://mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=310 List of countries with which Republic of Macedonia have bilateral relations]</ref>: [[Andorra]], [[Bahamas]], [[Bangladesh]], [[Barbados]], [[Bhutan]], [[Botswana]], [[Fiji]], [[Georgia (country)|Georgia]], [[Grenada]], [[Guyana]], [[Kiribati]], [[Lebanon]], [[Liberia]], [[Mali]], [[Malta]], [[Namibia]], [[Palau]], [[Palestinian Authority]], [[Papua New Guinea]], [[Philippines]],
[[Republic of China]] ([[Taiwan]]), [[Sahrawi Republic]], [[Saint Kitts and Nevis]], [[San Marino]], [[Solomon Islands]], [[South Korea]], [[Syria]], [[Tonga]], [[Trinidad and Tobago]], [[Tunisia]], [[Tuvalu]] and [[Zimbabwe]].
{{EndMultiCol}}

====List of international organisations====

The following international organisations use the reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (or a variant thereof) in their official proceedings:

*[[United Nations]],<ref name=un>{{cite web| url=http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm | title=United Nations | work=Admission of the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations | dateformat = mdy| accessdate=17 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[European Union]],<ref name= eu>{{cite web | url= http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/the_former_yugoslav_republic_of_macedonia/index_en.htm | title= European Union | work= European Commission, Enlargement, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | dateformat = mdy |accessdate=September, 5 2006}}</ref>
*[[NATO]],<ref name=NATO>{{cite web | url= http://www.nato.int/issues/enlargement/index.html | title=NATO |work=Enlargement |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[International Monetary Fund]],<ref name=IMF>{{cite web | url= http://www.imf.org/external/country/MKD/index.htm| title= International Monetary Fund |work=former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and the IMF |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[World Trade Organization]],<ref name=WTO>{{cite web| url=http://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/macedonia_e.htm | title= World Trade Organization | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) and the WTO |dateformat = mdy | accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[International Olympic Committee]],<ref name=IOC>{{cite web | title=International Olympic Committee |work=Olympic Committee of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | url= http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisation/noc/noc_uk.asp?noc_initials=MKD|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[World Bank]],<ref name=WB>{{cite web | title=World Bank | work= Countries & Regions | url= http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/0,,pagePK:180619~theSitePK:136917,00.html|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[European Bank for Reconstruction and Development]],<ref name=EBRD>{{cite web| title=European Bank for Reconstruction and Development | work=ebrd and fyr Macedonia | url= http://www.ebrd.com/country/country/mace/index.htm EBRD |dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe]],<ref name=OSCE>{{cite web | title=The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe |work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia admitted to OSCE | url= http://www.osce.org/item/16032.html|dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 18 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[FIFA]],<ref name=fifa>{{cite web |url= http://www.fifa.com/en/organisation/confederations/associationdetails/0,1483,MKD,00.html?countrycode=MKD| title=FIFA Organisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[UEFA]].<ref name=uefa>{{cite web |url= http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/countries/association=59205| title=UEFAOrganisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>
*[[FIBA]].<ref name=fiba>{{cite web |url= http://www.fibaeurope.com/Default.asp?nfID=2604| title=FIBA Organisation | work= FYR Macedonia |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=20 July 2006}}</ref>

==Greek position==
The constitutional name of the country "Republic of Macedonia" and the short name "Macedonia" when referring to the country, can be considered offensive by most [[Greeks]], especially inhabitants of the [[provinces of Greece|Greek province]] of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]. The Greek government officially uses the term "Slavomacedonian" to describe both the language and a member of the ethnic group, and the [[United Nations]]' provisional reference for the country (''"the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"'') by the main international organisations, including the [[United Nations]].<ref name=un>{{cite web| url=http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm | title=United Nations | work=Admission of the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations | dateformat = mdy| accessdate=17 July 2006}}</ref> The official reasons for this, as described by the [[Foreign relations of Greece|Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs]], are:

{{quotation|
"The choice of the name Macedonia by FYROM directly raises the issue of usurpation of the cultural heritage of a neighbouring country. The name constitutes the basis for staking an exclusive rights claim over the entire geographical area of Macedonia. More specifically, to call only the Slavo-Macedonians Macedonians monopolizes the name for the Slavo-Macedonians and creates semiological confusion, whilst violating the human rights and the right to self-determination of Greek Macedonians. The use of the name by FYROM alone may also create problems in the trade area, and subsequently become a potential springboard for distorting reality, and a basis for activities far removed from the standards set by the European Union and more specifically the clause on good neighbourly relations. The best example of this is to be seen in the content of school textbooks in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia."<ref name=GrFA />
}}

The current leader of the major opposition party, [[PASOK]], [[George Papandreou, junior|George Papandreou]] has stated that "in January 2002, when he was [[Minister for Foreign Affairs (Greece)|Minister for Foreign Affairs]], was next to a deal with Skopje leadership about using the name "Горна Македонија" ("Gorna Makedonija" - "Upper Macedonia" in Slavic). The other parties and the [[List of Presidents of Greece|President]] of the Republic, he said, were informed but the solution process didn't work, because the [[2001 Macedonia conflict|Tetovo crisis]] broke out."<ref name= Gorna>{{el icon}} {{cite web| title=Eleftherotypia |work=George's "No" to Nimitz proposals | url= http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,dt=13.04.2005,id=42766704 |accessdate= 2007-06-25}}</ref>

The Greek concerns can be analyzed as follows:

===Historical concerns===
{| class="infobox bordered" style="width: 250px; font-size: 90%; float: right;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"
|[[Image:Macedon431bcpriortoExpansions.png|244px]]
|[[Image:LocationMacedonia-HEL-1-z.png|244px]]
|-
|Ancient [[Macedon]] before expansion into Thracian and Illyrian territories.
|Modern [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] in Greece.
|-
|colspan="2" align="center" |[[Image:Macedonia and the Aegean World c.200.png|244px]]
|-
|colspan="2" align="center" | Kingdom of Macedon under Philip V.
|}

Greeks argue that the name Macedonia is historically inseparably associated with Greek culture, ever since the ancient kingdom of [[Macedon]] and the [[ancient Macedonians]]. They therefore consider that only Greeks have a historical right to use the name today, since the modern southern [[Slavs]] arrived 1,000 years after that kingdom, lacking any relation to Macedon or its Greek culture.<ref name=GrFA> {{cite web | url= http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/South-Eastern+Europe/Balkans/Bilateral+Relations/FYROM/FYROM+-+THE+NAME+ISSUE.htm|title=Hellenic Republic, Ministry of Foreign Affairs | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=17 July 2006 | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) — The Name Issue | publisher= | pages= | language=English }}</ref>. Efforts by ethnic Macedonians to construct a narrative of ethnic continuity linking them to the ancient Macedonians in various ways<ref name="mkukemb">{{cite web| url= http://www.macedonianembassy.org.uk/history.html | title= Official site of the Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia in London | work= An outline of Macedonian history from Ancient times to 1991 | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=19 October 2006 }}</ref> and symbolic actions underlining such claims, such as the public use of the [[Vergina sun]] symbol as a flag of the Republic of Macedonia, or the renaming of [[Skopje Airport]] to "Alexander the Great Airport"<ref>{{cite web| title=Kathimerini |work=A stir over name of Skopje’s airport | url= http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100006_29/12/2006_78322 |accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref> meet strong criticism from the Greek side, much of the international media that report on the issue, and even from moderate political views in the Republic of Macedonia itself.<ref>[[Kiro Gligorov]], first president of the Republic of Macedonia: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century[...]we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians". (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, 26 February 1992, p. 35) - "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia[...]Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)". (Toronto Star, 15 March 1992</ref><ref>Gyordan Veselinov, diplomat of the Republic of Macedonia: "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian[...]There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country". (Ottawa Citizen, 24 February 1999)</ref><ref>Denko Maleski, foreign minister of the Republic of Macedonia from 1991 to 1993, and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997: "The idea that [[Alexander the Great]] belong to us, was at the mind of some outsider political groups only! These groups were insignificant the first years of our independence but the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimate themselves through their history. In Balkans, if you want to be recognised as a nation, you need to have history of 3000 years old. So since you made us to invent a history, we invent it! [...] You forced us to the arms of the extreme nationalists who today claim that we are direct descendants of Alexander the Great!" (In an interview for Greek TV channel [[Mega Channel|Mega]], November 2006)</ref>.

Some Greek historians emphasise the late emergence of a "Macedonian" nation, often pointing to 1944 as the date of its "artificial" creation under [[Josip Broz Tito]], discounting earlier roots in the 19th and early 20th century<ref>[[Loring Danforth]], ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'', [http://www.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0691043566&id=ZmesOn_HhfEC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&ots=Eb0bBzHBQT&dq=macedonism&sig=LO82EJ_vsHIAzByUF4dUWNNRjd4#PPA56,M1 p. 56]</ref>.

The Greek view also stresses that the name Macedonia as a geographical term historically used to refer typically to the southern, Greek parts of the region, and not or only marginally to the territory of today's Republic. They also note that the territory was not called Macedonia as a political entity until 1944.

{{clear}}

===Territorial concerns===
[[Image:Ethnicmacedonia.jpg|thumb|250px|The region of Macedonia as perceived by ethnic Macedonian irredentists. Some ethnic Macedonian nationalists, including at official level have expressed irredentist claims to what they refer to as "Aegean Macedonia" (Greece), "Pirin Macedonia" ([[Bulgaria]]), "Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo" ([[Albania]]), and "Gora and Prohor Pchinski" ([[Serbia]]) despite the fact that ethnic [[Greeks]], [[Bulgarians]], [[Albanians]] and [[Serbs]] form the majority of the population of each region respectively. These fringe groups have received no official encouragement from the government of the Republic of Macedonia since 1995 when they agreed to remove all territorial claims to neighbouring countries' territories from their constitution, but the United Macedonia concept is still found among official sources in the Republic, and taught in schools through school textbooks and through other governmental publications.]]

{{main|United Macedonia|Aegean Macedonia}}

During the [[Greek Civil War]], in 1947 the Greek Ministry of Press and Information published a book, Ἡ ἐναντίον τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἐπιβουλή (''Designs on Greece''), namely of documents and speeches on the ongoing Macedonian issue, many translations from Yugoslav officials. It reports [[Josip Broz Tito]] using the term "[[Aegean Macedonia]]" on 11 October 1945 in the build up to the Greek Civil War; the original document is archived in ‘GFM A/24581/G2/1945’. For Athens in 1947, the “new term, Aegean Macedonia”, (also “Pirin Macedonia”), was introduced by Yugoslavs. Contextually, this observation indicates this was part of the Yugoslav offensive against Greece, laying claim to Greek Macedonia, but Athens does not seem to take issue with the term itself. The 1945 date concurs with Bulgarian sources.

Tito's wartime representative to Macedonia, General Tempo (Svetozar Vukmanovic), is credited with promoting the usage of the new regional names of the Macedonian region for irredentist purposes. Concerns over territorial implications of the usage of the term "Macedonian" were expressed as early as 1944 by US diplomats.<ref>U.S STATE DEPARTMENT, Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/ 26 December 1944)</ref>

Greece suspects that the Republic of Macedonia has [[United Macedonia|territorial ambitions]] in the northern [[Macedonia (Greece)|Greek provinces of Macedonia]]. This has been a Greek concern for decades; as far back as 1957, the Greek government expressed concern about reported Yugoslav ambitions to create an "independent" People's Republic of Macedonia with the Greek city of [[Thessaloniki]] as its capital.<ref name=Times>Greek Macedonia "not a problem", ''The Times'' (London), 5 August 1957</ref>

[[Loring Danforth|Loring M. Danforth]] ascribes the goal of a "free, united, and independent Macedonia" including "liberated" Bulgarian and Greek territory to a fraction of extreme Macedonian nationalists, whereas more moderate ethnic Macedonians recognise the inviolability of the borders but regard the presence of ethnic Macedonians in the neighbouring countries as an issue of minority protection.<ref name=Danforth>{{cite book| title=How can a woman give birth to one Greek and one Macedonian? | url= http://www.gate.net/~mango/How_can_a_woman_give_birth.htm | work=The construction of national identity among immigrants to Australia from Northern Greece | first=Loring M. | last= Danforth | accessdate= 2007-01-02 }}</ref>

Greek analysts<ref> Floudas, Demetrius Andreas; {{cite web |publisher= in: Kourvetaris et al (eds.), ''The New Balkans'', East European Monographs: Columbia University Press, 2002, p. 85 |url=http://www.intersticeconsulting.com/documents/FYROM.pdf | title= "Pardon? A Name for a Conflict? FYROM's Dispute with Greece Revisited”|format=PDF}} </ref> and politicians<ref name="dora_iht">Dora Bakoyannis, [http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/31/opinion/edbakoy.php Macedonia and NATO: The View From Athens], International Herald Tribune, 31 March 2008.</ref> have expressed concerns that western observers tend to overlook or not to understand the severity of the perceived territorial threat and tend to misunderstand the conflict as a trivial issue over just a name.

The concerns are further reinforced by the fact that extremist ethnic Macedonian [[nationalist]]s of the "[[United Macedonia]]" movement have expressed [[irredentist]] claims to what they refer to as "[[Greek Macedonia|Aegean Macedonia]]" (in Greece),<ref name=Times /><ref name="Patrides">Patrides, Greek Magazine of Toronto, September — October, 1988, p. 3.</ref><ref name="Currency">{{cite news| first=Marlise |last=Simons |title=As Republic Flexes, Greeks Tense Up |date=3 February 1992 |publisher=New York Times | url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE0DD103CF930A35751C0A964958260 }} </ref> ''"[[Pirin Macedonia]]"'' (in [[Bulgaria]]),<ref name="Bulgaria">{{cite web | last = Lenkova | first = M. | coauthors = Dimitras, P., Papanikolatos, N., Law, C. (eds) | title =Greek Helsinki Monitor: Macedonians of Bulgaria | work = Minorities in Southeast Europe | publisher =Greek Helsinki Monitor, Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe — Southeast Europe |year=1999 | url = http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/cedime-se-bulgaria-macedonians.PDF | format = pdf | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 24 July 2006}}</ref> "[[Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo]]" (in [[Albania]]),<ref name="Albania">{{cite web| url= http://www.florina.org/html/2003/2003_osce_albania.html | title=Rainbow — Vinozhito political party | work=The Macedonian minority in Albania | dateformat = mdy| accessdate= 22 July 2006}}</ref> and ''"[[Gora (region)|Gora]] and [[Prohor Pchinski]]"'' (in [[Serbia]]).<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.makedonija.info/info.html|title=Makedonija — General Information|dateformat = mdy|accessdate=22 July 2006}}</ref>

Greek Macedonians, Bulgarians, Albanians and Serbs form the overwhelming majority of the population of each part of the region respectively.

Schoolbooks and official government publications in the Republic have shown the country as part of an unliberated whole.<ref name=MkTimes>''The Macedonian Times'', semi-governmental monthly periodical, Issue number 23, July-August 1996:14, Leading article: Bishop Tsarknjas</ref><ref name=Booklets>''Facts About the Republic of Macedonia'' - annual booklets since 1992, Skopje, Republic of Macedonia Secretariat of Information, Second edition, 1997, ISBN 9989-42-044-0. p.14. 2 August 1944.</ref><ref name=MIA>[http://www.mia.com.mk MIA (Macedonian Information Agency)], ''[http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:bV_xiNmQMRYJ:205.217.154.67/world/macedonia+MACEDONIA+MARKS+30TH+ANNIVERSARY+OF+DIMITAR+MITREV'S+DEATH&hl=en&gl=gr&ct=clnk&cd=1&lr=lang_en Macedonia marks 30th anniversary of Dimitar Mitrev's death]'', Skopje, 24 February 2006</ref><ref name=UKMKemb>{{cite web| url= http://www.macedonianembassy.org.uk/history.html | title= Official site of the Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia in London | work= An outline of Macedonian history from Ancient times to 1991 | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=19 October 2006 }}</ref>
{{clear}}

===Self-determination===
[[Image:Apogevmatini Macedonians.gif|thumb|250px|right|[[Apogevmatini]] headline quoting Prime Minister [[Kostas Karamanlis]]: "I am a Macedonian, as are two and a half million Greeks."]]
{{seealso|Macedonians (Greek)|Greek Struggle for Macedonia|Demographic history of Macedonia}}

According to both the official Greek position<ref name=GrFA /> and various public manifestations in Greece<ref>Liotta, P. H. and Simons, A. ''[http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/parameters/98winter/liotta.htm Thicker than Water? Kin, Religion, and Conflict in the Balkans]'', from ''Parameters'', Winter 1998, pp. 11-27.</ref> and the [[Greek diaspora]],<ref name="theaustralianpeople">[[James Jupp|Jupp, J.]] ''The Australian People: An Encyclopedia of the Nation, Its People and Their Origins'', [[Cambridge University Press]], 1 October 2001. ISBN 0-521-80789-1, p. 147.</ref> the Greek Macedonians feel that their right to [[self-determination]] is violated by what they regard as the monopolisation of their name by a neighbouring country.

The strong regional identity of the Macedonians was emphasized by the [[List of Prime Ministers of Greece|Prime Minister of Greece]], [[Kostas Karamanlis]], who in January 2007 during a meeting of the [[Council of Europe]] in [[Strasbourg]] declared that:

{{quotation|
I myself am a Macedonian, and another two and a half million Greeks are Macedonians.<ref>[http://news.ert.gr/en/1/22936.asp ERT online] ''Stark message to Skopje'', 2007-01-24. Retrieved on 2007-01-25</ref>
}}

In Greece, the extreme position on the issue suggests that there must be "no Macedonia in the title" of a neighbouring country.<ref>{{cite web| url=http://www.e-grammes.gr/article.php?id=717 | title=Ελληνικές Γραμμές (Hellenic lines - official site of the LA.O.S. party) | work= Η Μακεδονία είναι μόνο Ελληνική (Macedonia is only Greek) | dateformat= mdy |accessdate= 27 December 2006}}</ref>

Professor Danforth reports:

{{quotation|
From the Greek nationalist perspective, then, the use of the name "Macedonian" by the "Slavs of Skopje" constitutes a "felony", an "act of plagiarism" against the Greek people. By calling themselves "Macedonians" the Slavs are "stealing" a Greek name; they are "embezzling" Greek cultural heritage; they are "falsifying" Greek history. As Evangelos Kofos, a historian employed by the Greek Foreign Ministry told a foreign reporter, "It is as if a robber came into my house and stole my most precious jewels - my history, my culture, my identity".<ref name=Danforth />
}}

More moderate positions suggest that a disambiguating element should be added to the name of the neighbouring state and its people (notably Slav- or Vardar or New), so as to illustrate the distinction between not just the two, but all groups of self-identifying [[Macedonian]]s.<ref name=GrFA />

{{clear}}

===Semiological confusion===
{| class="infobox bordered" style="width: 345px; font-size: 95%; float: right;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"
| height=35px; colspan="2" border="0" style="color:#fff; background:#669; font-size:larger; font-weight: bold;" align="center" | <big>Demographic Macedonia</big>
|-
| [[Macedonians]]      c. 5 million || All inhabitants of the region, irrespective of ethnicity
|-
| [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|Macedonians]] c. 1.3 million plus diaspora<ref name= census-mk>{{cite web| url=http://www.stat.gov.mk/pdf/kniga_13.pdf | title= State Statistical Office of the Republic of Macedonia| work= 2002 census| language=English | format=pdf | pages=34 |dateformat = mdy| accessdate=21 July 2006}}</ref> || A contemporary ethnic group, also referred to as ''Slavomacedonians'' or ''Macedonian Slavs''<ref>{{cite web| title=MSN Encarta | work=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | url=http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761555941/Macedonia_Former_Yugoslav_Republic_of.html#p6| dateformat = mdy|accessdate=9 September 2006}}</ref>
|-
| Macedonians c. 2.0 million<ref name= census-mk />|| Citizens of the [[Republic of Macedonia]] irrespective of ethnicity
|-
| [[Macedonians (Greek)|Macedonians]] c. 2.6 million plus diaspora<ref> {{el icon}} {{cite web| url= http://www.statistics.gr/gr_tables/S1101_SAP_01_TB_DC_01_02_Y.zip | title= General Secretariat of National Statistical Service of Greece | work= 2001 census | format = zip xls | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= 21 July 2006}}</ref> || An ethnic [[Greeks|Greek]] regional group, also referred to as ''Greek Macedonians''.
|-
| [[Ancient Macedonians|Macedonians]] (unknown population) || A group of antiquity
|-
| Macedonians c. 0.3 million<ref> {{bg icon}} {{cite web| url=http://www.nsi.bg/Census/Ethnos.htm | title=National Statistical Institute (of Bulgaria) | work= 2001 census | dateformat = mdy | accessdate= August, 3 2006 }}</ref>|| A [[Bulgarians|Bulgarian]] regional group;<ref name=bcb>{{cite web| url=http://www.diversitybulgaria.org/en/materials.php?sub=36| title=British Council — Bulgaria | work= Macedonians of Bulgaria | dateformat = mdy | accessdate=September 11 2006}}</ref> also referred to as ''[[Pirin]]ers''.
|-
| [[Aromanians|Macedo-Romanians]] c. 0.3 million<ref name= Macedo-Romanians>{{cite web| url= http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=rup | title= Ethnologue | work= Report for Macedo-Romanian language | accessdate=August, 3 2006 | dateformat = mdy }} *The figure includes Aromanians in all countries.</ref>* || An alternative name for [[Aromanians]]
|}

{{main|Macedonia (terminology)}}
The contemporary [[Macedonia (region)|region of Macedonia]] is a wider region in the [[Balkan peninsula]] that spans across several modern states, mainly Greece (Greek [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]]), Bulgaria ([[Blagoevgrad province]]), the Republic of Macedonia (formerly [[Vardar Macedonia]]), and [[Albania]] (around [[Lake Ohrid]]). The definite borders of the region are vague, but most contemporary geographers agree on its general location.<ref name= wilkinson>{{cite book | last = Wilkinson| first =H. R.| title = Maps and Politics; a review of the ethnographic cartography of Macedonia| url = http://worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/oclc/244268?tab=holdings| year = 1951| publisher = Liverpool University Press| location = Liverpool | id= {{LCC|DR701.M3|W5}} | pages = 1–4}}</ref> There are several ethnic groups in this region, mostly living within their respective states, all of which are technically [[Macedonians]] in the regional sense. The Republic itself, has a substantial minority (25.2%) of ethnic [[Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia|Albanians]] who are "Macedonians" both in the regional sense, and as legal citizens of the Republic.<ref name= census-mk /><ref name= mkconst>{{cite web| url=http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/mk00000_.html | title=International Constitutional Law | work= Macedonia — Constitution |dateformat = mdy | accessdate=20 July 2006 |language= English translation}}</ref>

The Greek position suggests that the ''monopolization'' of the name by the Republic and its citizens creates semiological confusion, as it becomes increasingly difficult to disambiguate which "Macedonia", which "Macedonians" and what "Macedonian language" are referred to in each occasion.

[[Bulgarians]] living in [[Blagoevgrad province]] ([[Bulgarian Macedonia]]) are reported to not identify themselves with their regional term "Macedonians", so as not to be confused with the [[ethnic Macedonians]].<ref name=bcb />

[[Macedo-Romanians]] ([[Aromanians]]) are often called "Machedoni" by Romanians, as opposed to the citizens of Macedonia, who are called "Macedoneni".

The Greek Macedonians demonstrate a strong regional identity and identify themselves as plain Macedonians, who live in plain [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]], speaking a [[Macedonian dialect]] of modern Greek.

==Ethnic Macedonian position==
===Self-determination and self-identification===
Skopje rejects many of Athens' objections due to what it sees as several errors in the Greek claims.

According to the government in Skopje, the preservation of the constitutional name both for domestic and international use is of utmost importance. The country asserts that it does not lay exclusive claim to the term ''Macedonia'' either in the geographic or the historic sense.<ref name="OfficialMk">''[http://www.president.gov.mk/info_e.asp?SectionID=5&InfoID=1564 Annual address of the President of the Republic of Macedonia, Mr. Branko Crvenkovski in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia]'', on 2005-12-22, Retrieved on 2007-05-11.</ref> Various demonstrations and protests in the [[Republic of Macedonia]]<ref>{{cite web | title= Eurominority | work= Macedonians protest Concil of Europe decision on their Country's name | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.eurominority.org/version/fra/reports-detail.asp?id_actualite=558}}</ref> and the ethnic Macedonian diaspora, the [[ethnic Macedonians]] feel that their right to self-determination is violated by what they regard as the rejection of the name from the Greeks and their country. The Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences suggests:

{{Quotation|
And today Slavs have been living there (Macedonia) for a period of 1,400 years. What is more natural than that the Balkanized Slavs who have lived so long and continuously in Macedonia should be called Macedonians and their language Macedonian"<ref>Council for Research into South-Eastern Europe of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Skopje, 1993 </ref>}}

It should be noted, however, that the Slavs inhabited Macedonia for more than a millennium before the name "Macedonians" was first used to distinguish a specific Slavic ethnic group by a small number of intellectuals towards the end of the nineteenth century.<ref>Danforth, L. (1995) ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'' p. 56-77 ISBN 0691043574 </ref>

===Historical perspective===

From a historical perspective, Macedonian Slav scholars blame Greece for claiming ownership over an ancient kingdom which, in their view, was not Greek, claiming historical studies propose there was a considerable degree of political and cultural distance between ancient Greeks and Macedonians. This view contrasts sharply with that of Greek authors, who point to historical data seen as evidence that ancient Macedonians identified as Greeks and spoke Greek. According to the Macedonian government, the ethnic Macedonian claim to continuity with ancient Macedonia is based on Macedonia's population having mixed with the Slavic newcomers after their arrival in the 6th and 7th century, but having retained the Macedonian name, and elements of their traditions and culture.<ref> http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=291</ref> Most neutral scholars maintain that the [[ancient Macedonian language]] had an uncertain degree of affiliation to Greek. Moreoever, the former use of the Vergina Sun by the Republic of Macedonia had intended to appeal to all ethnic groups in Macedonia, on the premise that the ancient Kingdom was itself ethnically mixed<ref>{{Cowan|p=125}}''Macedonia: the politics of identity and difference''.Pluto Press, 2000. ISBN 0745315895</ref>. The argument of legitimacy also extends to the view that much of southern (ie Greek) Macedonia was only fully Hellenized by political means in modern times. Slavic-speaking Macedonians can argue that they have a more legitimate claim to the name ''Macedonia'' to many Greek Macedonians, who are descendents of immigrants and refugees that were settled in Macedonia from regions such as Anatolia, Epirus and Thrace during the early twentieth century <ref>{{harvtxt|Cowan|p=5}}</ref>.

=== The ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece ===
{{main|Aegean Macedonians| Minorities in Greece#Slavic-speaking|ethnic Macedonians}}

[[Image:Hellenism in the Near East 1918.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Greek ethnographic map of south-eastern Balkans, showing the Macedonian Slavs as a separate people, by Professor George Soteriadis, Edward Stanford, London, 1918.]]

In the 6th and 7th centuries AD [[Slavic languages|Slavic]]-speaking populations came into northern Greece and the ethnic composition of the wider [[Macedonia (region)|Macedonia region]],<ref name="Britannica-Macedonia">Macedonia. (2006). In ''Encyclopædia Britannica''. Retrieved 16 June 2006, from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service: [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=4411]</ref> and Slavic languages have been spoken in the area alongside Greek in the region ever since. In parts of northern Greece, in the regions of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] (Μακεδονία) and [[Western Thrace|Thrace]] (Θράκη), Slavonic languages continue to be spoken by people with a wide range of self-identifications. The actual linguistic classification of these dialects is unclear, although most linguists will classify them as either [[Bulgarian language|Bulgarian]] or [[Macedonian language|Macedonian Slavic]] taking into account numerous factors, including the resemblance and mutual intelligibility of each dialect to the standard languages (''[[abstand]]''), and the self-identification of the speakers themselves. As however the vast majority of these people don't have a non-Greek national identity, linguists will make their decisions based on ''abstand'' alone. The Slavic-speaking minority of northern Greece can be divided in to two main groups: [[Christianity|Christians]] and [[Islam|Muslims]]. The latter has no reported connection to ethnic Macedonians.

The Christian portion of Greece's Slavic-speaking minority are commonly referred to as ''Slavophones'' (from the Greek Σλαβόφωνοι ''Slavophōnoi'' - lit. Slavic-speakers) or ''Dopii'', which means "locals" in Greek. The vast majority of them espouse a Greek national identity and are bilingual in Greek. They live mostly in the [[West Macedonia|Periphery of Western Macedonia]] and belong to the [[Church of Greece|Greek Orthodox Church]], which in conjunction with the [[Millet (Ottoman Empire)|''millet'']] system of the [[Ottoman Empire]] which occupied the region until 1913, may explain their self-identification as Greeks. In the 1951 census, 41,017 people claimed to speak the [[Slavic language (Greece)|Slavic language]]. One unofficial estimate for 2000 puts their number at 1.8% of the Greek population, that is c.200,000.<ref>''Encyclopedia Britannica'', [http://www.britannica.com/new-multimedia/pdf/wordat077.pdf World Data Greece]. Called "Macedonians" in this source.</ref>

This group has received some attention in recent years due to claims from the [[Republic of Macedonia]] that these people form an [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|''ethnic Macedonian'']] minority in Greece. Some organisations and academics have stated that there is a minority within the [[Minorities in Greece#Slavic-speaking|Slavophone community in Greece]] which self-identifies as [[ethnic Macedonian]].<ref name=GHM>{{cite web | url= http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/pdf/rainbow-english.pdf | title= Greek Helsinki Monitor | work= Greece against its Macedonian minority The "Rainbow" trial | accessdate= 2007-01-02|format=PDF}}</ref><ref>Hill, P. (1999) "Macedonians in Greece and Albania: A Comparative study of recent developments". ''Nationalities Papers'' Volume 27, Number 1, 1 March 1999, pp. 17-30(14)</ref><ref>{{cite web | title=Eurominority |work=Macedonians in Greece | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.eurominority.org/version/eng/minority-detail.asp?id_minorites=gr-mace}}</ref><ref name="Danforth">Danforth, L. (1995) ''The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World'' ISBN 0691043574</ref><ref>{{cite web | title=The Guardian |work=Bittersweet return for Greek civil war's lost victims | accessdate= 2007-01-02 | url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1064683,00.html}}</ref>

There is a dispute over the size of this alleged minority, with some Greeks denying it outright, and most ethnic Macedonians inflating the numbers substantially. The [[Greek Helsinki Monitor]] reports that, "difficult and therefore risky it is to declare a Macedonian minority identity in such an extremely hostile if not aggressive environment in Greece".<ref name=GHM /> There are no official statistics to confirm or deny either claims. The Greek government has thus far refused on the basis that there is no significant such community and that the idea of minority status is not popular amongst the (Greek identifying) linguistic community of northern Greece as it would have the effect of them being marginalized.<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.florina.org/html/2005/2005_greece_lies_to_coe.html| title=Rainbow — Vinozhito political party |work= Greek Diplomats and Members of the Greek Parliament Lie to the Council of Europe| accessdate= 2007-01-02}}</ref>

Professor Danforth reports:

{{quotation|
...Finally, the Greek government denies the existence of a Macedonian minority in northern Greece, claiming that there exists only a small group of "Slavophone Hellenes" or "bilingual Greeks," who speak Greek and "a local Slavic dialect" but have a "Greek national consciousness".<ref name=Danforth />
}}

A political party promoting this line and claiming rights of what they describe as the "Macedonian minority in Greece" — the [[Rainbow (political party)|Rainbow]] (Виножито) — was founded in September 1998; it received a minimal support of 2,955 votes in the region of [[Macedonia (Greece)|Macedonia]] in the latest elections (2004).<ref>{{cite web| title=Ministry of Interiors, Greece |work= 2004 Election results |accessdate= 2007-01-03 | url=http://www.ypes.gr/ekloges/content/gr/elec_data/2004UE_epi_res.asp |language=Greek}}</ref>

==Macedonian, language and dialect==
{{main|Macedonian language naming dispute}}

===Macedonian language (Slavic)===
The name of the [[Macedonian language]] ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: [[Cyrillic]]: Mакедонски јазик - [[Latin]]: ''Makedonski jazik'') as used by the people and defined in the constitution of the [[Republic of Macedonia]] is "Macedonian" ([[Macedonian language|Macedonian]]: [[Cyrillic]]: Mакедонски јазик - [[Latin]]: ''Makedonski jazik'').<ref>[http://www.b-info.com/places/Macedonia/republic/Constitution.shtml Republic of Macedonia - Constitution]</ref> This is also the name used by international bodies, such as the [[United Nations]]<ref>[http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN018344.pdf Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights - FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA: PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION - OSCE/ODIHR Election Observation Mission - Final Report]</ref> and the [[World Health Organisation]].<ref>[http://www.who.int/entity/occupational_health/network/en/oehcompendium.pdf World Health Organization - WHO Library Cataloguing-in-Publication Data]</ref> The name is also used by convention in the field of [[Slavic Studies]].<ref>Sussex, R. (2006) ''The Slavic Languages'' (Cambridge : Cambridge University Press) ISBN 0-521-22315-6</ref>

However, for historical reasons, as well as due to the conflict with Greece, several other terms for the language remain in use. Some of the names use the family to which the language belongs to disambiguate it from the undoubtedly non-Slavic and entirely different [[ancient Macedonian language]], or from the homonymous [[modern Greek#Varieties|dialect of modern Greek]]; sometimes the autonym "Makedonski" is used in English for the modern Slavic language, with "Macedonian" being reserved for the ancient language.<ref>Joseph, B. (1999) [http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/publications/1999roma.pdf ''Romanian and the Balkans: Some Comparative Perspectives''] In S. Embleton, J. Joseph, & H.-J. Niederehe (eds.) ''The Emergence of the Modern Language Sciences.'' Studies on the Transition from Historical-Comparative to Structural Linguistics in Honour of E.F.K. Koerner. Volume 2: Methodological Perspectives and Applications. Amsterdam: John Benjamins (1999), pp. 218-235</ref>

Affirmation of the separateness of Macedonian as a separate language is an issue of some importance for the ethnic Macedonian self-view.<ref name="Danforth"/> In opposition to this, Bulgarian and Greek critics sometimes continue to insist on treating Macedonian as merely a dialect of Bulgarian, pointing to its close structural affinity, its historically late emergence as a separate standard language, and the political motivation behind its promotion in the mid-20th century.

===Macedonian dialect (modern Greek)===
Macedonian is applied to the present-day Greek dialect spoken by Macedonian Greeks.<ref>{{cite book |language=Greek |last=Ανδριώτης (Andriotis) |first=Νικόλαος Π. (Nikolaos P.) |year=1995 |title=Ιστορία της ελληνικής γλώσσας: (τέσσερις μελέτες) (History of the Greek language: four studies) |publisher=Ίδρυμα Τριανταφυλλίδη |location=Θεσσαλονίκη ([[Thessaloniki]]) |isbn=960-231-058-8}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last=Vitti |first=Mario |year=2001 |title=Storia della letteratura neogreca |publisher=Carocci |location=Roma |isbn=88-430-1680-6}}</ref>

===Macedonian (ancient)===
{{Main|Ancient Macedonian language}}

The origins of the [[ancient Macedonian language]] are currently debated. It is as yet undetermined whether it was a [[Ancient Greek dialects|Greek dialect]] which was part of or closely related to the [[Doric Greek|Doric]]<ref>{{cite book |last=Masson |first=Olivier |editor=S. Hornblower and A. Spawforth (eds.) |title=[[Oxford Classical Dictionary|The Oxford Classical Dictionary]] |origyear=1996 |edition=revised 3rd |year=2003 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=USA |isbn=0-19-860641-9 |pages=905–906}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |authorlink=N.G.L. Hammond |last=Hammond |first=N.G.L. |year=1989 |title=The Macedonian State. Origins, Institutions and History |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=0-19-814927-1 |pages=12–13}}</ref> and/or [[Aeolic Greek|Aeolic]]<ref>{{cite book |language=German |authorlink=Franz Heinrich Ludolf Ahrens |last=Ahrens |first=Franz Heinrich Ludolf |year=1843 |title=De Graecae linguae dialectis |location=Göttingen, 1839-1843}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last=Hoffmann |first=O. |title=Die Makedonen. Ihre Sprache und ihr Volkstum |location=Göttingen |year=1906 |language=German}}</ref> dialects, a sibling language of [[ancient Greek]] forming a ''Hellenic''<ref name="Joseph">{{cite book |first=B. |last=Joseph |year=2001 |chapter=Ancient Greek |editor=In: J. Garry et al. (eds.) |title=Facts about the world's major languages: an encyclopedia of the world's major languages, past and present |url=http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/articles/gancient.htm}}</ref> (i.e. Greco-Macedonian) supergroup, or an [[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] language which was a close cousin to Greek and also related to [[Thracian language|Thracian]] and [[Phrygian language|Phrygian]] languages.<ref>{{cite book |author=[[JP Mallory|Mallory, J.P.]] and Adams, D.Q. (eds.) |year=1997 |title=Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture |publisher=Taylor & Francis Inc. |isbn=1-884964-98-2 |page=361}}</ref> The scientific community generally agrees that, although some sources are available (e.g. [[Hesychius of Alexandria|Hesychius']] lexicon, [[Pella curse tablet]])<ref>{{cite book |language=French |author=Dubois L. |year=1995 |title=Une tablette de malédiction de Pella: s'agit-il du premier texte macédonien? Revue des Études Grecques (REG) |pages=108:190–197}}</ref> there is no decisive evidence for supporting either hypothesis.<ref>{{cite book |language=French |author=Brixhe C., Panayotou A. |year=1994 |title=Le Macédonien in: Langues indo-européennes |editor=Bader |location=Paris |pages=205–220}}</ref> Nevertheless, [[Attic Greek]], a form of the [[Greek language]], eventually supplanted it entirely in Macedonia from the 5th Century BC, and ancient Macedonian became extinct during the first few centuries AD. Attic Greek evolved into [[Koine Greek]] and in turn into [[Medieval Greek|Byzantine]] and [[modern Greek]].<ref>{{cite web |author=Brian D. Joseph |url=http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/articles/gmodern.htm |title=Greek, Modern |work=Ohio State University, Department of Linguistics}}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist|3}}

==See also==
*[[Macedonia (region)]]
*[[Macedonia (terminology)]]
*[[Macedonian Question]]
*[[List of homonymous states and regions]]
*[[Matthew Nimetz]] - Mediator
*[[Zoran Jolevski]] - Macedonian Negotiator
*[[Adamantios Vassilakis]] - Greek Negotiator

''Notice: Hyperlinks and emphasis in the quotations appearing in this article were not in the original source being quoted, but are merely used for disambiguation purposes.''

{{Hellenic foreign relations}}

[[Category:Geographical naming disputes]]

{{Link FA|mk}}
[[bg:Спор за името на Република Македония]]
[[de:Streit um den Namen Mazedonien]]
[[el:Μακεδονικό Ζήτημα]]
[[es:Disputa sobre el nombre de Macedonia]]
[[fr:Débat autour du nom de la Macédoine]]
[[ko:그리스-마케도니아 분쟁]]
[[id:Persengketaan nama Makedonia]]
[[mk:Спор за името помеѓу Македонија и Грција]]
[[no:Den makedonske navnekonflikten]]
[[pl:Konflikt grecko-macedoński]]
[[pt:FYROM]]
[[sv:Makedonska namnkonflikten]]

User talk:Yannismarou

2009-04-08T20:43:29Z

3rdAlcove:

{{wikibreak|message='''Back only part-time for the time being, but I'll try to respond to any requests or queries.'''}}

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== Byzantine navy FAC ==

Hello Yannis! After an [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Byzantine navy/archive1|unsuccessful attempt]] to get the [[Byzantine navy]] article to FA, I have greatly expanded and improved it. Since you are one of the best FA-creators I know, I'd be glad to have your input in the [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Byzantine navy|second nomination]]. Thanks in advance and best regards, [[User:Cplakidas|Constantine]] [[User talk:Cplakidas| ✍ ]] 19:12, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:Yannis, the article has been successfully promoted. Thanks again for your support. [[User:Cplakidas|Constantine]] [[User talk:Cplakidas| ✍ ]] 11:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

::Yes, I am pretty glad too, given the effort invested, and either way, one's first FA is always reason for celebration! I was actually pleasantly surprised this time around, since sufficient editors with knowledge of the matter were interested, and helped in greatly improving the article through the FAC process. Anyway, I was talking with [[User:Gun Powder Ma]] and we'll probably try to bring the [[Greek fire]] and [[Dromon]] articles to GA status (and possibly gather them together with the navy article in a featured topic). Other than that, the [[Cretan War (1645–1669)]] article is IMO pretty much ready for FA. However it lacks coverage on some aspects, especially info on events in Crete itself, and some more info on the impact of the war in financial, demographic and military terms would be needed to round it off. I have found some additional sources, and am going through them. If you can help here, that 'd be great! I have also a bunch of other articles on the [[Ottoman–Venetian Wars]] ongoing, which, given that they were mostly fought in Greece, could be of interest. I am also engaged in translating the [[Greece in the Balkan Wars]] article from French, although I do not intend to strictly adhere to its structure or content. Here too, an experienced contributor would be of great help, especially in keeping it balanced and NPOV. Best regards, [[User:Cplakidas|Constantine]] [[User talk:Cplakidas| ✍ ]] 16:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

== The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXVI (February 2009) ==
The '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Outreach/Newsletter February 2009|February 2009 issue]]''' of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by [[User:BrownBot|BrownBot]] ([[User talk:BrownBot|talk]]) 00:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

== Nominations for the Military history WikiProject coordinator election ==
The [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators|Military history WikiProject coordinator]] selection process has started; to elect the coordinators to serve for the next six months. If you are interested in running, please sign up [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators/March 2009|here]] by 23:59 (UTC) on 13 March! This has been an automated delivery by [[User:BrownBot|BrownBot]] ([[User talk:BrownBot|talk]]) 20:45, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

==Σταμάτα Ρεβίθη==
I'd be delighted to help. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 21:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 08:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
::Yannis, I gave this a pass, a few trivial edits; its quite well written, I found myself with nothing to do. I think its ok to go. I'll watch the FAC page in case prose come up, but I don't think they will. God speed! [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 18:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
:::Ok, I understand now. Its not a ref formatting I'm familiar with, just took me while to cop what you were up to. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 23:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
::::Qurestion, seeing as how you are so handy for digging up sources; [[Henryk Górecki]] I have been trying to build for over two years, but I just cant find the info. I've more or less exhaused all online info I know of, and have some of the english language material out there though only what to be fair is available through general book stores ([[Cork (city)|Cork]] is a great place but very small, and I refuse to visit Dublin for any reason!). [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 18:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::What exactly do you want me to search for? I suppose you don't expect me to go to Dublin for you and search in the bookstores there. Unless of course, you are ready to pay (cash!) for that.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 14:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
::::::No sorry, I mean tips on resources I might find sources. I use questia mainly. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 01:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Questia is fine. Google Book? Google Scholar? But they help more on historical subjects. Google news has also been very helpful to me in the past. Now, Gutenberg and Perseus is mainly old stuff; I don't think they are much of a help for you. If you want me to have a look at anything particular, tell me. It's a pleasure ... --[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 07:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I might as well be shameless and come to the point. In about a week, I'm going to take [[Fragment of a Crucifixion]] to PR, and I would very much appreciate if you looked at how its put together. Its going to be short, I have near every book published on Bacon, and the painting is not often mentioned, however it strikes a big chord with me. The article is all over the place at the moment, and it will be mainly help with making it structurally cohierent that I'll be asking for. Your usually quite good at that! [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 19:21, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
::::You always say the same thing, but almost always the article's structure is excellent, and I have nothing to say! And, at the end, I feel like an idiot! Obviously, you want to do it again. Let's see, then ...--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 22:08, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Military history WikiProject coordinator election ==
The [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators|Military history WikiProject coordinator]] election has started. We will be selecting coordinators from a pool of eighteen to serve for the next six months. Please [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators/March 2009|vote here]] by 23:59 (UTC) on Saturday, 28 March! Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by [[User:BrownBot|BrownBot]] ([[User talk:BrownBot|talk]]) 07:29, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

== Ela file ==

thelo ligo βοiθεια ado:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brazilian_passport

ευχαριστώ πολύ file mou.

[[User:Reaper7|Reaper7]] ([[User talk:Reaper7|talk]]) 18:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Byzantine-Arab Wars ==

Certainly! I thought I had checked all of them, but clearly I had missed that one. --[[User:Grimhelm|Grimhelm]] ([[User talk:Grimhelm|talk]]) 20:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

== Thanks for peer review on Onassis ==

<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:red; background-color:cream; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">[[Image:Carnegie Deli Strawberry Cheesecake.jpg|100px|left]]

[[User:Whpq|Whpq]] ([[User talk:Whpq|talk]]) has given you a slice of cheesecake{{#if:for following up on a peer review request|, for for following up on a peer review request}}! You see, these things somehow promote [[Wikipedia:WikiLove|WikiLove]] and hopefully this has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a slice of cheesecake! Enjoy! Thanks for spending your time providing a peer review of [[Aristotle Onassis]]! 

Spread the goodness of slice of cheesecake by adding {{[[WP:SUBST|subst]]:[[Template:BlankWikiLove|BlankWikiLove]]|border=red|bg=cream|image=Carnegie Deli Strawberry Cheesecake.jpg|article=a|item=slice of cheesecake }} to their talk page with a friendly message.
</div>



:Hmmm .... And I am so hungry!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 10:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

==Epaminondas==
Hi there, I've now added the references to the bibliography section. I'll continue trying to add references and re-write where I can![[User:MinisterForBadTimes|MinisterForBadTimes]] ([[User talk:MinisterForBadTimes|talk]]) 07:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
:I've clarified the references you asked about, in the article. Cheers![[User:MinisterForBadTimes|MinisterForBadTimes]] ([[User talk:MinisterForBadTimes|talk]]) 08:59, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

::I'm away until Monday now, so there won't be any more input from me for a few days. Hopefully we've done enough to keep the article featured though. I'll continue to add detail, reference etc. when I get back, but I think I might have got as far as possible with only the ancient sources. For the 'Assessments', I think more modern sources will be useful. Thanks for all your input, Cheers, [[User:MinisterForBadTimes|MinisterForBadTimes]] ([[User talk:MinisterForBadTimes|talk]]) 14:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

*Hey Yanni--funny timing; I hadn't logged on here in months, and happened by a few days after you posted this note. It looks like you're doing a great job making some improvements to good old Epaminondas. I wish I were able to offer real help like I used to, but alas, I'm in Boston, my books are in St. Louis, I no longer have access to the university library that used to fuel my writing, and all of my free time is spent at the office (I'm there now, in fact, though obviously goofing off a little). That said, this article was one of my proudest accomplishments on Wikipedia, and I'd like to see it stay in good standing, so I'll do what I can. It does look like the Boston Public Library has a copy of ''The Soul of Battle'' to hand, so I'll try to at least add page numbers and citations from that in the next week, and I'll be happy to do what I can with the prose as well (if you can't cite, write...). I hope you're well too--it's been a long time, but I have fond memories of teaming up to make the internet a little richer in snazzy biographies of interesting Greeks. I'm going to provide you with a contact email that you can reach me at, since catching me at my talk page was a piece of random luck. --[[User:Robth|Robth]][[User Talk:Robth|Talk]] 00:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
:*I also mailed you! Looking forward to receiving the contact mail of yours! These were really the good old days, and you knew and know that you were one of my inspirations for working on this project. Which, by the way, is poorer without you!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 12:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

== Edit request ==

Hi - thanks for offering the review, but I currently have neither the time nor the inclination to do any major work on wikipedia. Sorry about that. Because I posted the request so long ago, I'm sure that whatever work I wanted reviewed has been heavily revised in the meantime anyway, so it wouldn't be much use to me now. You could always post comments on the talk page of the article in question. Cheers - [[User:Lexo|Lexo]] ([[User talk:Lexo|talk]]) 23:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
:Ok, then I'll archive it.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 14:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

== Edits by user [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/88.253.62.88] ==

Dear administrator! The above mentioned user keeps on editing the Greek names of Turkish cities in articles such as [[Roza Eskenazi]], [[Aristotle Onassis]] etc. To my relief, he is not vandalizing the pages. However, I'm wondering if such a practice is in conformity with WP naming conventions. Take a look and maybe raise the issue on WP Greece's talkpage. Thanks! [[User:Pel thal|Pel thal]] ([[User talk:Pel thal|talk]]) 17:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

:Ruthless sysop watching him over --[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 23:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Α ρε Γιάννη... ==

If you really want to keep revert-warring me, can I make a suggestion, couldn't we take the duel off to some other article, say, [[Graecoanatolica macedonica]]? Several advantages: it's the most pertinent title possible, the subject is already dead and won't mind, and it offers an obvious [[snail|hook]] for whoever makes the unavoidable step of immortalising us at [[WP:LAME]]. Whaddya say? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 17:07, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
:There is no "duel". There is only one edit warrior (you) versus the status quo ante.--[[User:Avg|Avg]] ([[User talk:Avg|talk]]) 17:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Warum nicht, Fut? Aber ziehe ich etwas anderes vor. Meine Antwort wird poetisch und heroisch sein:

{| cellspacing="10" style="white-space: nowrap;"
| ''Line'' || ''Original'' || ''Translation''
|-
| [32] || Ευθύς εκαβαλίκευσαν, 'ς τόν κάμπον κατεβαίνουν.
| They mounted at once and they came to the battlefield.
|-
| [33] || Ώς δράκοντες εσύριζαν και ως λέοντες εβρύχουντα
| They hissed like serpents, they roared like lions,
|-
| [34] || και ώς αετοί επέτουντα και εσμίξαν οι δύο.
| They soared like eagles, and the two clashed.
|-
| [35] || Και τότε να ειδής πόλεμον καλών παλληκαρίων
| And then you could see a fight between fine brave youths.
|-
| [36] || και από της μάχης της πολλής κρούσιν διασυντόμως
| In the heat of the battle they struck continuously,
|-
| [37] || και από τον κρύπον τον πολύν και από το δός και λάβε
| and from the great clashing and the cut and thrust
|-
| [38] || οι κάμποι φόβον είχασιν και τα βουνά αηδονούσαν,
| trees were uprooted and the sun was darkened,
|-
| [39] || το αίμαν εκατέρεεν εις τα σκαλόλουρά των
| Blood flowed down over their horse-trappings
|-
| [40] || και ο ίδρος τους εξέβαινε απάνω απ'τα λουρίκια.
| and their sweat ran out over their breastplates.
|-
| [41] || Ήτον γάρ του Κωνσταντή γοργότερος ο μαύρος,
| Constantine’s black horse was speedier,
|-
| [42] || και θαυμαστός νεώτερος ήτον ο καβαλάρης.
| and its rider was a marvellous young man.
|-
| [43] || κατέβηκε εις τον αμιράν και κρούει του ραβδέα
| He charged at the emir and struck him a blow with his stick,
|-
| [44] || και εχέρισεν ο αμιράς να τρέμη και να φεύγη.
| and then the emir began to tremble and flee.
|-
| [45] || Σαρακηνός ελάλησεν τον αμιράν της γλώσσης:
| A Saracen addressed the emir in his own tongue:
|-
| [46] || "Πιάσε, μούλε, τον άγουρον, ταχέως να τον νικήσης,
| "Seize the youngster, my lord, and grab a quick victory,
|-
| [47] || μή εις σύντομόν του γύρισμα πάρτη κεφαλήν σου.
| so that he doesn’t take your head off with his sudden turn.
|-
| [48] || Αυτός καλά σ'εσέβηκεν τώρα να σε γκρεμνήση.
| He has made a fine attack on you and now he might finish you off.
|-
| [49] || Εγώ ουδέ τον εγνοιάζομαι να τον καταπονέσης,
| I don’t think, my lord, you are going to do him much harm,
|-
| [50] || αλλά μή το καυχάσεται ότι έτρεψε φουσάτα."
| but don’t let him boast that he routed an army."
|-
| [51] || Και ο αμιράς ως το ήκουσεν, μακρέα τον αποξέβην,
| When the emir heard this, he withdrew some way from the youth,
|-
| [52] || έριψεν το κοντάριν του και δάκτυλόν του δείχνει
| he threw away his spear and showed him his finger,
|-
| [53] || και μετά του δακτύλου του τοιούτον λόγον λέγει:
| and with this gesture said these words:
|-
| [54] || "Να ζής, καλέ νεώτερε, εδικόν σου είναι το νίκος."
| "May you live and rejoice, young man, for victory is yours."
|}.

--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 21:11, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

:Seriously, now. And believe me, I mean every word I write here. I highly respect you, and I always regarded you (and I'll still regard you) as one of the most competent sysops this project has. As a matter of fact, I think that you're born to be a sysop! Your genes knew it before you! But, with all due respect, I feel that in the Macedonian-related articles your stance is not even, and diachronically you are not at all consistent in what you're saying and doing. The fact that you even went against a consensual popular vote in the RoM article for the bolding is outrageous! I could expect it from Taivo but not from you. About the bolding?!!! Your stance there is not more justified than Tassos' stance in [[Graecoanatolica macedonica]], where indeed I cannot find anything in MOSMAC in support of the fYROM naming.

:If the fact that all (or at least most of) the Greek users are critical towards your stance does not say anything to you, then I am sorry. I will not say anything else. And don't tell me that users like Tassos are nationalists, because I'll tear my clothes (and this is not a nice spectacle, believe me, I am fatter than I used to be). Concerning the duel, it is you who declared the war, arguing that there is no other solution but to ban the one side. If you think so, go for it! As far as I am concerned, I'll never stop to respect you and thank you for your moral support during my RfA, but I'll stand up for what I believe, even if that means that I'll have to be ousted from this project. If ever comes, this is going to be a sad moment for me, but, thank God, I have a full life, and many other things to do outside Wikipedia.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 21:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

::Hi Yannis. Sorry about that but since the Graecoanatolica macedonica article was mentioned, I need to clarify that, unfortunately, I took what I thought was a humorous [[WP:BAIT]] where I also took the opportunity to introduce, in jest, in my edit summary, the non-existent Greek cabal, a figment of some users' imagination. Making this edit I did not fully consult the [[WP:NC]] manual but I thought I was making a proper edit. And for sure this edit was not a nationalist statement either. It was rather a light hearted response to Future's humorous challenge on your talkpage. That Future turned off his humorous genes during his reversal of my edit so that he could issue a rather caustic edit summary is surprising. I know Future has a great sense humour but unfortunately he chose to suppress it in this instance in favour of a baseball bat. I am disappointed, but this is not the first time. As far as my nationalist agenda in Wikipedia you can check my record of participation in these discussions, which aside from the latest flare-up is very sparse. When I, rarely, contributed in the past it was mostly to try to calm things down as in here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASlavic-speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia&diff=228112633&oldid=228110549]. The latest round however caught me off guard in large measure due to the amount of bad faith and other nasty incidents directed at the Greek side which I found unwarranted and anti-intellectual in their scope, due to the persistent mantra that all Greek editors are just motivated by blind nationalism and that their arguments are patently tainted as a result. This is an anti-intellectual approach based not on rebutting the arguments but assuming bad faith from all the Greek editors, which is simply ridiculous. Greek walled gardens and Greek cabals are suggested with a straight face, while others talk about Greek nationalist gangs. This current demonisation of the Greek element is why I chose to get involved. If this drivel directed at the Greeks is true and the solution to this naming dispute was so easy, why then all these years so many debates took place including the ill-fated [[WP:MOSMAC]] essay? All such precedents were suddenly disregarded and hidden under the carpet just so as to throw the mud at the Greeks. That's hardly fair to all these hard working intellectuals from both sides who took pains to debate these issues for so many years. It is also anti-intellectual, simplistic and confrontational. Anyway, sorry for taking so much space on your talkpage. At least talking to a friend makes this sad affair somewhat less of a burden. Take care. Τάσος ([[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] [[User talk:Tasoskessaris|logos]] 23:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC))

:::Leaving for a moment aside this sad story, I am happy for your thread here, because you reminded of doing something I wanted for a long time: to thank you for having a look from times to times to the [[Byzantine empire]] article, whose maintenance is a titanic mission, and need collective work.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 23:45, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

::::Wow, that was a fast reply. I don't think I deserve these thanks because I don't think I did all that much on the article, but thank you for your kind comments. Take care. Tasos ([[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] [[User talk:Tasoskessaris|logos]] 23:59, 4 April 2009 (UTC))
:::::I have people watching the page 24 hours a day. But keep it quiet ... Καληνύχτα Τάσο. Την κάνω σε λίγο!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 00:05, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::Now I get it. I've got a few of my own. My people may meet your people one day. Καληνύχτα Γιάννη :) Τάσος ([[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] [[User talk:Tasoskessaris|logos]] 00:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC))

Akritika? As far as I am concerned, reverting duels with Greek people usually remind me of less heroic feats. Like the anecdote about the villager who took her neighbour to court over the use of the village cistern for irrigating their gardens. They had been revert-warring over opening and shutting one of their water channels: ''Pai aftos, Kyr' nirudhika m', kai tu vaz' sapan'. Lipon, pau ighú, tu vaz' kat'. Aftos tu vaz' pan'! ighú tu vaz' kat'. Aftos, tu vaz' pan'!...'' -- [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 10:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
:Then don't initiate them, especially in articles where you see a long-time consensus (with no participation from Greek nationalists) like [[Council of Europe]]. Your practice reminds me the practice of a Greek villager who checks if the owner of the neighboring real estate is there, and if he finds him missing, he goes and installs himself there. When the owner returns and demands his property, he starts screaming: "Φύγε από δω, ρε! It is mine! I decided it!"--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 10:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

:Αγαπητέ μου, δεν σου έχει πει κανείς ότι οι έννοιες «Γερμανός» και «χιούμορ» είναι ασυμβίβαστες; ·[[User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ|ΚΕΚΡΩΨ]]· 16:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

::Όχι ακριβώς Κέκρωπα. Απλώς έχουν ένα παραπάνω διακόπτη με τον οποίο μπορούν να αναβοσβήνουν το χιούμορ. Τάσος ([[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] [[User talk:Tasoskessaris|logos]] 21:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC))

==Note==
Glad to see you back at FAC !!! [[User:SandyGeorgia|SandyGeorgia]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 22:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
:Girl, it took you some days to see me, but thanks! Well, let's be honest ... I am back because I missed you ... ... ... 
:Keep up the good work both in FAC and FARC, Sandy! Cheers!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 22:05, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXVII (March 2009) ==
The '''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News/Newsletter March 2009|March 2009 issue]]''' of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by [[User:BrownBot|BrownBot]] ([[User talk:BrownBot|talk]]) 23:09, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

== Roman-Persian Wars ==

This will probably annoy you hugely, but here goes. After a lengthy absence from the article, and from Wikipedia in general, which was largely provoked by the interminable storm in a teacup over the introduction to this article last summer, I have returned and edited it again. See what you think.

Please, don't throw anything at me. [[User:Zburh|Zburh]] ([[User talk:Zburh|talk]]) 00:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

== No problem ==

I always assume good faith, I screamed only in order to make others assume good faith, and not create sections named "The lead again and the "misuse"(-"manipulation") of sources". :-) See you, [[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 16:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

:Fut, ''only'' about the academic terminology:-)[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 18:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

==Found your Message==

Γιαννη μου, δεν τα χουμε πει εδώ και καιρό αλλά είναι πάντα χαρά μου. Ελπίζω να τον πιούμε τον καφέ που λέγαμε, αλλά ακόμα κι αν δεν προλάβουμε αυτόν τον καιρό, επιφυλάσσομαι για το μέλλον. Είδα τα σχετικά που μου ζήτησες και πολύ πρόχειρα σου γράφω μερικές παρατηρήσεις (βαριέμαι αφόρητα να γράψω στα αγγλικά και οι ενδιαφερόμενοι είναι δόξα σοι ο Θεός όλοι τους ελληνομαθείς). Κατ' αρχάς, όπως είχα επισημάνει παλιότερα στον FP το βασικότερο έργο σε σχέση με τους Σουλιώτες είναι το Βάσω Ψιμούλη, Σούλι και Σουλιώτες, Αθήνα 20052, όπου και ΟΛΗ η σχετική βιβλιογραφία (ελληνική και ξένη). Πρόκειται για μια βαρβάτη, εμβριθέστατη, επιστημονικότατη και πλήρως απαλλαγμένη από εθνικιστικές αγκυλώσεις διδακτορική διατριβή 560 και πλέον σελίδων (κόσμημα ακαδημαϊκής ιστορικής γραφής και έρευνας... μακάρι να γράφαν έτσι και στα υπόλοιπα βαλκάνια) που ξεκινάει από την πρώτη εγκατάσταση των αλβανικών φύλων κατά τον 13ο-14ο αιώνα και φτάνει μέχρι την ελληνική επανάσταση. Σύμφωνα με την Ψιμούλη: Οι Σουλιώτες ήταν ένας ορεινός ελληνορθόδοξος πληθυσμός, αλβανικής καταγωγής εν πολλοίς δίγλωσσος, που προκειμένου να επιβιώσει αναγκαζόταν να εκμεταλλεύεται ανελέητα τους αγροτικούς πεδινούς πληθυσμούς (ελληνικούς και αλβανικούς). Το αλβανικής καταγωγής μπορείς πολύ απλά να το διαβάσεις και ως Αλβανοί σκέτο. Η έννοια της εθνικής ταυτότητας δεν υπήρχε αλλά οι ίδιοι είχαν πλήρη συνείδηση της καταγωγής και της διαφορετικότητάς τους τόσο από τους έλληνες ομόδοξούς τους όσο και από τους εξισλαμισμένους Αλβανούς (τουθόπερ τους πραγματικούς Τσάμηδες) που τους περιέβαλλαν. Η ουσιαστική ενσωμάτωσή τους στο νέο "ελληνικό έθνος" γίνεται πράγματι κατά τη διάρκεια της επανάστασης όταν διωγμένοι για δεύτερη και οριστική φορά από το Σούλι ταυτίζονται με τον ελληνικό αγώνα για ανεξαρτησία με την ελπίδα της αποκατάστασής τους στο υπό ίδρυση ελληνικό κράτος. Η πορεία προς την ενσωμάτωσή τους γνώρισε πολλά σκαμπανεβάσματα και ολοκληρώθηκε σταδιακά. Ο φίλος μας ο Balkanian αν και του δίνω τα χίλια δίκια για τις μαλακίες που κατά καιρό έχει ακούσει κι ο ίδιος και οι καθόλα συμπαθείς και συχνά αδικημένοι συμπατριώτες του από τους δικούς μας υπερπατριώτες πέφτει δυστυχώς (με το κεφάλι και εθελουσίως μάλιστα) στην ίδια παγίδα με τους κατά καιρούς ελληναράδες προσπαθώντας να προωθήσει τον τσάμικο αλυτρωτισμό (γιατί περί αυτού δυστυχώς πρόκειται). Εν ολίγοις έχει διαμορφωθεί και πάλι το γνωστό καταθλιπτικό τοπίο της Wikipedia όπου τα κοινά στοιχεία μεταξύ των λαών αντί να ενώνουν διχάζουν. Αλλά έστω... Σε σχέση με τη γλώσσα τώρα (αντιγράφω κατά λέξη από την Ψιμούλη σελ. 214-215):"Σύμφωνα με τον εκδότη και σχολιαστή του κειμένου (ενν. το ελλληνοαλβανικό λεξικό του Μπότσαρη), Τίτο Π. Γιοχάλα το αλβανικό ιδίωμα του λεξικού ανήκει στην τοσκική διάλεκτο της Ν. Αλβανίας, με επιβιώσεις όμως πολλών αρχαϊκών γλωσσικών στοιχείων, τα περισσότερα από τα οποία απαντώνται σήμερα στην ομιλούμενη αλβανική των ελληνο-αλβανικών κοινοτήτων της Κάτω Ιταλίας. Από τα σημερινά ομιλούμενα αρβανίτικα ιδιώματα, ο Γιοχάλας θεωρεί ότι η ελάχιστα ομιλούμενη σήμερα διάλεκτος του χωριού Καναλάκι και ιδιαίτερα του χωριού Ανθούσα (Ράπεζα) βρίσκεται εγγύτερα, γλωσσικώς προς το υλικό του Μάρκου Μπότσαρη." Αυτά λέει ο Γιοχάλας και μόνον αυτά. Σε σχέση τώρα με την πρώτη τους εμφάνιση στον χώρο της Ηπείρου, είδα να γίνεται αναφορά στον Arnakis και να του αποδίδεται η άποψη ότι "ήδη πριν από τον 12ο αιώνα τα αλβανικά φύλα βρίσκονταν στην βόρειοδυτική Ελλάδα". Δυστυχώς εδώ αποκαλύπτονται οι κίνδυνοι της ψευτοέρευνας στο διαδίκτυο. Το παράθεμα δεν προέρχεται από άρθρο του Arnakis ούτε απηχεί την άποψή του. Πρόκειται για βιβλιοκρισία που ο Arnakis έγραψε στο περιοδικό Speculum για το πασίγνωστο έργο του Βακαλόπουλου Ιστορία του Νέου Ελληνισμού Α. Οι Αρχές και η διαμόρφωσή του

Στο απόσπασμα που παραθέτει ο συμπαθής Balkanian ο Αρνάκης απλώς αναπαράγει την άποψη του Βακαλόπουλου και η υποψία μου είναι ότι έχει γίνει τυπογραφικό γιατί ο Βακαλόπουλος ήταν πάντα υπέρ της άποψης ότι τα πρώτα αλβανικά φύλα στον χώρο της Ηπείρου εμφανίζονται μετά τα μέσα του 13ου αιώνα. Απ' ό,τι είδα ο Balkanian υποστηρίζει στη σελίδα των Τσάμηδων ότι θα παρουσιάσει ολόκληρη τη σελίδα του άρθρου που υποτίθεται ότι έχει διαβάσει και αυτό θα έχει οπωσδήποτε ενδιαφέρον. Αν μου το ζητήσεις σου στέλνω τη βιβλιοκρισία να δεις και μόνος σου τι εστί misquotation... αλλά έστω.

Γιάννη μου να με συμπαθάς αλλά είναι τόσα ακόμα που ειλικρινά δεν αξίζει τον κόπο να ασχοληθείς. Ελπίζω από τα παραπάνω να πήρες μια ιδέα για την άθλια κατάσταση που επικρατεί γενικότερα και ειδικότερα και τη λογική που διέπει τους συντάκτες όλων των εθνικοτήτων. Η WIKIPEDIA είναι χώρος ιδεολογικής αντιπαράθεσης και όχι εγκυκλοπαίδεια. Μετά τα πρόσφατα επεισόδια τα οποία παρακολούθησα από ενδιαφέρον για τους συμμετέχοντες και όχι για τη Μακεδονιάδα καθεαυτήν συνειδητοποίησα πλήρως ότι δεν με κολακεύει καθόλου να συμμετέχω στο εγχείρημα. Δεν είμαι ούτε ελληναράς υπερπατριώτης ούτε ψευτοαριστερός του μετανεωτερικού "δυτικού κόσμου" που στο πίσω μέρος του κεφαλιού του ζει ακόμα στην αποικιοκρατική του ψευδαίσθηση. Όσο κι αν θέλουν να παρουσιάσουν τους Έλληνες (η ακόμα καλύτερα τους Βαλκάνιους - γιατί σ' αυτή τη γαμημένη χερσόνησο είμαστε ΟΛΟΙ αδέλφια) ως ανήκοντες στην φυλή των Μάο Μάο το μόνο που γίνεται ξεκάθαρο είναι ότι οι ιδεολογικές προκαταλήψεις και οι ψευδαισθήσεις μεγαλείου απ' όλες τις κατευθύνσεις καλά κρατούν. Το αποτέλεσμα ξέφυγε από τη όρια της γραφικότητας και μπήκε για τα καλά στη σφαίρα της γελοιότητας με άφθονη δόση χυδαιότητας. Τα παραπάνω τα έγραψα μόνο και μόνο επειδή σε εκτιμώ και τίποτε παραπάνω. Το μόνο που ελπίζω είναι να μη χαθω με μερικούς από τους αξιόλογους ανθρώπους που γνώρισα εδώ μέσα και τίποτε παραπάνω. Λυπάμαι για το μακροσκελές του πράγματος αλλά σήμερα είχα ρεπό και μπόρεσα να σου γράψω αρκετά, τώρα πάω για καφεδιές. Η μέρα έξω είναι γαμάτη! Καλή σου συνέχεια--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 10:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

== hi ==

Please, help me with something. How would it be in Katharevousa, "Arvanites" and "Arvanitia"?[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 12:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:I don't think that Αρβανίτης is different in katharevousa; therefore it is probably Αρβανίτης (sing) - Αρβανίται (plural). Αρβανιτιά is a demotic word; I cannot think of a respective term in katharevousa (I would just say οι Αρβανίται). The problem is I don't have my dictionaries here for further analysis and info.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 13:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

==Update==

LOL Μπαλώματα κατόπιν εορτής [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cham_Albanians&curid=2273026&diff=282540125&oldid=282395230].

:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Yannismarou#Found_your_Message Γι' αυτό] πρέπει να μείνεις! Γιατί στα θέματα αυτά η Wikipedia βρίθει ημιμαθών (μεταξύ και αυτών και εγώ, αλλά τουλάχιστον εγώ ομολογώ ό,τι δεν ξέρω, σε αντίθεση με άλλους [ονόματα δε λέμε υπολήψεις δε θίγουμε] που το παίζουν ειδήμονες και δεν μπορούν ούτε να παραθέσουν μια πηγή ούτε να γράψουν ένα άρθρο της προκοπής), ενώ εσύ πραγματικά με τις παρεμβάσεις σου (σποραδικές αλλά τόσο εύστοχες και εμπεριστατωμένες) της δίνεις λίγο φως. Φιλιά και καλή ξεκούραση! Εδώ στις Βρυξέλλες προχτές λιακάδα, χτες έτσι και έτσι, σήμερα ΣΚΑΤΑ!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 13:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

== remark ==

Actually, it was nice working with you, but if you do not want to intervine thats ok. Let me put it in other words:

Souliotes are ''gererally'' remarked as a community of 18th century, but they ''are'' a community created in 15th century.

Having an Albanian origin, means that they would have an ''original language''. THe current version is "Souliotes originally spoke their own" dialect, and than became "became bilingual in Albanian and Greek", without putting the ''time'' factor. How could they be of Albanian origin, and since their origin be bilingual? Shouldnt they have a ''original language''. THe time when they became bilingual is unknown and really '''not''' intresting (my hometown is bilingual, all of us speak Greek, but Albanian is still our ''mother tangue'').

As per their subgroup of Albanians, they would be either Souliote or Chams. They could not be Arvanites for example, a term confused in Greece too. (Arvanites are the ''Arbereshe'' or the Albanophones in general? If they are the first, than they are a dialectologicla, regional group of SOuthern Greece, if they are the second, they are just a sociological group). There '''are''' sources that explain that SOuliotes were part of Cham group (once more, Cham subdialect, costumes, music, dances, folk tradition, ''region''), and not a distinct group.

Whatsoever, thanks![[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 14:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
:The plaasure has been mine as well. Thank you for your feedback and analysis as well.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 14:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

== Help ==

Unfortunately, the only serious source (my modern Greek history is even more neglected than my other eras...) on the Souliotes I have here is the book Giorgos recommended above (2nd ed.). I could help you by mentioning its general conclusion [Giorgos has become too much of a snob :P though he's absolutely correct about the, no, ''our'' general behavior here on wiki. '''edit''': reading his post more carefully (apologies!), he's summarized the book's general conclusion very well, I'll keep the snob comment, however, so it lures him back out ;)] but you should give it a read! [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 17:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

==LOL==

So you think that I 'll stick around just to be subjected, let's say, to such breathtaking revelations [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Taivo&diff=282608476&oldid=282605896] about the apparently academic consensus on the "agglutinative" nature of... erm... the Greek language... well nope. You once spoke of civilisational collapse. The Latins had a saying for it I think: Sic transiit gloria mundi... Τζιζ βαβά φτου κακά--[[User:Giorgos Tzimas|Giorgos Tzimas]] ([[User talk:Giorgos Tzimas|talk]]) 20:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:(Γιάννη, ελπίζω να μη σε ενοχλεί η Αρμένικη βίζιτα, αν ναι πες το και την κοπανάω) I did speak of a civilisational collapse but only when our ''Teutons'' start making mistakes of the Χάνδος type! [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 20:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
::(Now that I understood who is who!) I have to admit that I have a difficulty to follow you! You remind me of the two old guys of the Muppet Show, who wittily commented on everything with their own code of communication!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 20:30, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
::Armenikes vizites are welcomed, but have in mind that you'll be archived. My talk page is never blanked! I am an archive-freak!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou#top|talk]]) 20:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
::To ένα σοκ διαδέχεται το άλλο! Βασίλη μου αν δεν το κατάλαβες ο Γιάννης μόλις μας αποκάλεσε ΒΙΖΙΤΟΥΔΕΣ στην περίληψή του. Άτιμε και σε είχα και σε υπόληψη... καλοπερνάμε βλέπω στας Βρυξέλας...--[[User:Giorgos Tzimas|Giorgos Tzimas]] ([[User talk:Giorgos Tzimas|talk]]) 20:39, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Το "Πορνόγιαννος" είναι δείγμα αγγλουτινέισον ή φιούζιον άραγε; [[User:3rdAlcove|3rdAlcove]] ([[User talk:3rdAlcove|talk]]) 20:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

==Intresting==
Take a look on this book [http://anemi.lib.uoc.gr/php/pdf_pager.php?filename=/var/www/tkl-portal-neo//metadata/4/a/1/attached-metadata-141-0000156/83751.pdf&lang=en&pageno=1&pagestart=1&width=366&height=549&maxpage=159] its primary and unreliable, but its quite intresting about the way Albanians and Greeks was seen by each other at the end of 19th century. After page 50 it speaks about Souliotes and Botsaris too much.[[User:Balkanian`s word|Balkanian`s word]] ([[User talk:Balkanian`s word|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)