Talk:Knockout game

2013-12-01T04:53:21Z

68.81.41.132:

{{talkheader}}
{{WikiProject United States|class=|importance=}}
{{WP Crime|class=|importance=}}
{{Old AfD multi|page=Knockout (violent game)|date=23 November 2013|result='''withdrawn'''}}

==Invalid and prejudicial article==
This is a factually invalid and prejudicial article that does not belong in the encyclopedia. The author cites two alleged cases of this "game" in 19 years. I would ask Wikipedia to avoid carrying articles that attribute behaviors to "teens" (or any other population group) unless the authors can document with valid references (not mere news articles) that they are widespread, common, and occur only among that demographic.
Mike Males, YouthFacts.org
:This appears to be an issue that is documented in the media. It should meet the notability requirements to be included in Wikipedia.
:-There is a book documenting it [[http://www.amazon.com/White-Girl-Bleed-Lot-ebook/dp/B008WVIKK6 White Girl Bleed a Lot: The return of racial violence and how the media ignore it.]]
:and plenty of news articles.:
:- [[http://acpionline.com/2012/10/29/knockout-king/ "Knockout King" from American Crime Prevention Institute]]
:- "Scattered reports of the game have come from around the country including Massachusetts, New Jersey and Chicago. In St. Louis, the game has become almost contagious, with tragic consequences. " [[http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45783310/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/knockout-king-new-brand-street-violence-targets-random-victims/#.Ui9ejn_fLKc Knocktout King: New Brand of street violence targets random victims]]
:-"It isn't clear how long Knockout King has been around, nor is the exact number of attacks known. The FBI doesn't track it separately, but Slay said he has heard from several mayors about similar attacks and criminologists agree versions of the game are going on in many places." [[http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/02/knockout-game-killer-gets-life-sentence-for-st-louis-attack/ 'Knockout game' killer gets life sentence for St. Louis attack]]
:- [[http://nypost.com/2013/09/09/bus-riders-face-smashed-in-during-hate-attack/ Bus rider's face smashed in during 'Hate Attack']]
:-[[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078484/Knockout-King-The-sickening-game-claiming-lives-country.html Knockout King: The sickening 'game' claiming lives across the country as youths beat up the vulnerable 'for attention']]
:-[[http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/knockout-game-case-shocked-st-louis-then-fell-apart/article_cdf5032a-b65e-51e0-a84e-de0f0ce0c5f8.html 'Knockout game' case shocked St. Louis, then fell apart]]
:-[[http://centralny.ynn.com/content/news/667109/man-s-death-linked-to--knockout-game-/ Man's death linked to "Knockout Game"]]
:[[Special:Contributions/216.116.162.226|216.116.162.226]] ([[User talk:216.116.162.226|talk]]) 18:30, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

This article keeps on being reverted even though the game is predominately "played" by black youths but that note keeps getting removed!
:- [[http://www.wnd.com/2013/03/25-year-old-victim-loses-knockout-game/]]
:- [[http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/a_violent_racist_game_claims_more_victims.html]]
:- [[http://www.westernjournalism.com/6-blacks-knockout-game-leaves-70-year-old-white-stranger-hospital/]]
:- [[http://www.inquisitr.com/1026082/knockout-disturbing-trend-has-teens-knocking-unsuspecting-strangers-unconscious/]] — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.92.132.215|72.92.132.215]] ([[User talk:72.92.132.215|talk]]) 02:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC) 
::: Add your source to the text... multiple if need be. I'll drop a help sheet on your talk page. Do that and it won't be reverted so quickly. [[User:ChrisGualtieri|ChrisGualtieri]] ([[User talk:ChrisGualtieri|talk]]) 02:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

== Racial violence ==

Its time to add the subject of racial violence to this topic. Its quite apparent to even the least educated observer, that this game is predominately played by African American youths against European American whites. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2600:1007:B02C:F37B:A4D7:E5F6:AE51:49E5|2600:1007:B02C:F37B:A4D7:E5F6:AE51:49E5]] ([[User talk:2600:1007:B02C:F37B:A4D7:E5F6:AE51:49E5|talk]]) 17:17, 16 November 2013 (UTC) 

The ridiculous self-censorship about the black racists involved is dangerous for the whole Wikipedia. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/151.66.185.0|151.66.185.0]] ([[User talk:151.66.185.0|talk]]) 20:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC) 

I think that there has been a range of victims, from "white" people to Asian citizens. The "game", even being played overseas, is not predominately played by one race or another. United States citizens think that only African Americans could be capable of such an act, that is where the true race issue is hidden. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.44.64.132|75.44.64.132]] ([[User talk:75.44.64.132|talk]]) 20:37, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 

I think that there has been a range of victims, from "white people to "tan" people. The "game", is played by "black" primarily teen citizens knocking out "non-black" citizens, videoing it and posting it on the internet. The rest is rationalized, revisionist garbage put forth to protect the "game' players. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.225.252.201|98.225.252.201]] ([[User talk:98.225.252.201|talk]]) 18:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC) 

==Racist Urban Legend==
I've checked these links pretty carefully. It's clear -- from an encyclopedic point of view -- that we can document a CLAIM that there is a widely-distributed game in which uninvolved people are subjected to vicious unprovoked attacks for the amusement of teen males. This article in its present form affirms that there really is a widespread practice, when the Post-Dispatch article on the Index case was already (very properly) asking whether that view might not be imposing a connecting narrative on random acts of violence. It has all the earmarks of a rumor panic (hints of conspiracy) and it provokes all the usual responses -- just look at the comments section on any of the videos posted. I'm pretty sure you've got an urban legend here, very much like the "Lights Out" type, but the racial violence? That's all in the comments --including the ones here. [[Special:Contributions/150.243.14.35|150.243.14.35]] ([[User talk:150.243.14.35|talk]]) 19:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
:Please relate your comments to specific Wikipedia policies. Otherwise, this discourse is just [[WP:soapboxing]]. [[User:Plot Spoiler|Plot Spoiler]] ([[User talk:Plot Spoiler|talk]]) 19:45, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
::No soapboxing at all. I am responding to 1) how this subject is framed (as if the game existed, in some stable form, which is undocumented, and thus treating the Loch Ness Monster as part of the fauna of Scotland) and to someone's suggestion that we really need to make it clear that this (nonexistent) game is a device for black people to hurt white people (the evidence suggests no such thing). Rather, the evidence suggests it's an urban legend by which white people express their anxieties about black people. Now, those are the observations of a wikipedian, on no other evidence than is available to everybody reading, on a no-need-to-document-the-sky-is-blue basis. That's a really normal part of editing. Don't be so snarky, k? [[Special:Contributions/150.243.14.35|150.243.14.35]] ([[User talk:150.243.14.35|talk]]) 21:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
:::So you're just soapboxing on critical race theory then? Stop wasting everybody's time, especially while you're not citing any relevant Wikipedia polices. None of the information you reference above is even included in the article. [[User:Plot Spoiler|Plot Spoiler]] ([[User talk:Plot Spoiler|talk]]) 22:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
:::::You're being obtuse and unpleasant. The article as it stands says something exists which may not -- you need a specific wikipolicy for that? Somebody proposed a change, I explained why it would be a bad thing? And you want a policy for that? OK, show me where it says we need to cite a specific wikipolicy to communicate at all? This conversation is an attempt to improve the article, and if you feel your time is wasted in it, exit. [[Special:Contributions/150.243.14.35|150.243.14.35]] ([[User talk:150.243.14.35|talk]]) 23:25, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Let's not get personal about this subject. Remember to [[WP:Assume good faith]]. Thank you. [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 22:30, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

== Inaccurate reporting ==

The story originally linked to http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/11/16/potentially-fatal-knockout-game-targeting-strangers-may-be-spreading-to-d-c/, which identifies the guy in the alley as Ralph Santiago, but in the video, his name is given as James Addlespurger. If you click through to the link about Santiago at NJ.com, there is no mention of this game, but there is another article, now listed, that does mention the game.

I have not checked the other footnotes, but because the entry repeated the erroneous information from the CBS report, I separated the two reports and provided separate links. [[User:Cyraxote|Cyraxote]] ([[User talk:Cyraxote|talk]]) 22:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

== Protected ==

I've just semi-protected the article for a month, as there's currently a daily barrage of useless, racist vandalism. As there's dialog here on the talk page now, anon editors can feel free to weigh in here instead - [[User:Alison|'''Alison''']] [[User_talk:Alison|❤]] 22:14, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Good for you. Last thing on planet earth anyone want's is an accurate revision of history.
Ignoring the obvious racial component is not racist? — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.225.252.201|98.225.252.201]] ([[User talk:98.225.252.201|talk]]) 23:15, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 

== Avoiding Racial Component?! ==

{{edit semi-protected||answered=yes}}

Please note that the "knockout game" includes aspects of racial profiling where individuals are targeted based on their race. Also most of the attacks are sucker-punches. This activity is strongly related to racial profiling. It is surprising that this aspect of this article is avoided... it would be like referring to the Nazi death camps without referencing war or Jews. Please have someone look into this post and edit.

[[Special:Contributions/71.193.29.244|71.193.29.244]] ([[User talk:71.193.29.244|talk]]) 03:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

{{ESp|n}} Thanks for wanting to improve the article. Suggestions are always welcome and do not require an {{tl|edit semi-protected}} template. The template is used to allow non-auto-confirmed editors to make specific, detailed edit requests. Those edit requests must be detailed at a "please change X to Y" level and include [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] supporting any factual change. Regards, [[User:Celestra|Celestra]] ([[User talk:Celestra|talk]]) 16:12, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected||answered=yes}}

The knockout game, also known as polar bear hunting, is overwhelmingly perpetrated by blacks on white victims.

[[Special:Contributions/74.213.33.235|74.213.33.235]] ([[User talk:74.213.33.235|talk]]) 20:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

:{{ESp|rs}}. See also the reply to the previous request, immediately above this. --[[User:Stfg|Stfg]] ([[User talk:Stfg|talk]]) 20:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

== Other incidents before 2011 ==

Whether or not these other articles are referring to the same thing, they use the same name or something similar like "polar bear hunting" (possibly a term purposely inflamatory created by media sensationalists) and it is allegedly played similarly. I, for one, would like these articles referenced in the wiki page along with that previous one from 1992. If nothing else they can be evidence of past attacks either mistakenly attributed or possibly adding to the evidence of this not being a new game.

:-[[http://www.hudsonreporter.com/pages/full_story/push?article-Teens-+-knock-out-+game+targets+strangers+Four+Hoboken+High+students+arrested+in+connection+with+assault-+more+to+come%20&id=2411069 2007 Teens knock-out game targets strangers Four Hoboken High students arrested in connection with assault]]
:-[[http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=344372#.Uo5kIUOm20w 2009 Columbia teens play to knock out victims]]
:-[[http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2010-09-09/unprovoked-attacks-champaign-may-be-linked.html 2010 Unprovoked attacks in Champaign may be linked]] — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/152.1.44.167|152.1.44.167]] ([[User talk:152.1.44.167|talk]]) 20:36, 21 November 2013 (UTC) 

== Lets just be honest ==
Whatever your feelings, we all know deep inside that this does in fact have a racial component. Certainly it is not an organized movement against whites by blacks, but the perpetrators just simply ARE black youths. I have a problem with the word "conservative" being used in the article. Why not just say something like "some commentators"? Adding the word conservative seems to be a slimy attempt to discredit the points that follow it.
Hope more editors are concerned enough to offer their input on this article.
[[Special:Contributions/24.60.214.65|24.60.214.65]] ([[User talk:24.60.214.65|talk]]) 04:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
:The current wording is "Conservative political commentators have criticized the media for insufficient news coverage of these incidents and ignoring the alleged racial nature of these attacks". Can you find an example of a liberal commentator pointing out the insufficient news coverage and the racial aspect? "Conservative" is only a biased word if you come to the table with a preconceived notion that conservatives are wrong and liberals are right. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 13:29, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, the Washington Post published an article today discussing this very topic. http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/district-police-investigating-random-attacks-similar-to-knockout-game/2013/11/21/ca9e26c2-5154-11e3-9fe0-fd2ca728e67c_story.html

The WP is certainly considered to be left-leaning. Geraldo Rivera also discussed this on the O'Reilly Factor on 11/22/13, with Laura Ingraham. I wouldn't say Rivera is a liberal, but he certainly cannot be called a "conservative commentator". I understand the resistance to acknowledge this topic's racial component - race is an understandably loaded addition to any conversation - but the claim that only conservative commentators are talking about this is not accurate.
[[Special:Contributions/24.60.214.65|24.60.214.65]] ([[User talk:24.60.214.65|talk]]) 05:09, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
*I'm not seeing where the Post article you linked mentions race. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 12:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

== Edit request, 22 November 2013 ==
{{edit semi-protected||answered=yes}}

In the case of Michael Daniels, both boys plead guilty, and were sentenced to 1.5 years prison. [[http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_KNOCKOUT_GAME?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-11-21-16-49-54 Attacks around US probed for link to knockout game]]

[[Special:Contributions/99.163.118.77|99.163.118.77]] ([[User talk:99.163.118.77|talk]]) 04:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

:{{ESp|d}} the source says that the 16-year-old was found guitly rather than pleading guilty. I have reflected that. Thanks for providing this information. --[[User:Stfg|Stfg]] ([[User talk:Stfg|talk]]) 10:26, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

== Racial Components being added ==

Saying these attacks are racially motivated is completely dishonest as no one can prove that all victims have been white. There have been multiple victims of all races in these attacks. Adding information on what Conservative pundits are saying about black youths ''only'' attacking white victims does nothing but add prejudice to the article as it is not true. [[User:Dumaka|Dumaka]] ([[User talk:Dumaka|talk]]) 16:47, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
:Do not delete sourced information because [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]. Nobody is saying it is ''true'', but it is notable to put the views of prominent conservative pundits. The information is presented in an [[WP:NPOV]] manner. [[User:Plot Spoiler|Plot Spoiler]] ([[User talk:Plot Spoiler|talk]]) 17:00, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
::This is presenting a racial overtone to the entire article. This has been discussed before. [[User:Dumaka|Dumaka]] ([[User talk:Dumaka|talk]]) 17:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
:::Dumaka is now just engaging in [[WP:Edit-warring]] by deleting sourced information that is presented in a neutral manner. S/he is not sourcing a valid WP policy for removing this information. [[User:Plot Spoiler|Plot Spoiler]] ([[User talk:Plot Spoiler|talk]]) 17:04, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

::::Actually, it is you that is engaged in [[WP:Edit-warring]] by placing bias information in the article that has already been discussed and deleted. If you look at previous discussions on this talk page you will see what I mean. [[User:Dumaka|Dumaka]] ([[User talk:Dumaka|talk]]) 17:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

It likely is not racially motivated in the sense that certain black individuals organize and seek to target whites in a concerted effort. However, of the reported cases by any news outlet I'm aware of, the very significant majority of these cases have been committed by young black individuals against non-black individuals. The idea that this "game" is just a fantasy ginned-up by certain Conservative pundits is demonstrably false. As another editor posted on this page, a convicted participant of this "game" has already acknowledged it as such. Are we to believe that this individual and his group of friends created this "game" themselves, and that all of the other reported cases are just coincidental?

[[Special:Contributions/24.60.214.65|24.60.214.65]] ([[User talk:24.60.214.65|talk]]) 05:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
== James Addlespurger ==

According to the New York Times, the Pittsburgh police say there is no evidence that James Addlespurger's assault was part of any "knockout game." (starts in 15th graf):
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/nyregion/knockout-game-a-spreading-menace-or-a-myth.html?_r=0
That article also points out that many in law enforcement believe this game is an urban myth. The article should be edited to include this information. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.66.9.21|98.66.9.21]] ([[User talk:98.66.9.21|talk]]) 16:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 
:I think the many videos of random, one-punch assaults, some videoed by the perpetrators themselves with commentary, bely the notion that this is an urban myth. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 19:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

== Eden Lomax murder of Simon Mitchell with single-punch "bomb", Bolton, England ==
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2511302/Teenager-wildly-attacking-strangers-street-days-murdered-man-single-punch-personalised-bomb-attack.html — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/146.90.51.210|146.90.51.210]] ([[User talk:146.90.51.210|talk]]) 17:59, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 
: Not attributed to "Knockout" as a game nor mentioned anywhere in the article. [[User:ChrisGualtieri|ChrisGualtieri]] ([[User talk:ChrisGualtieri|talk]]) 18:25, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
::So you are proposing that a separate article on "bombing" be given its own article because it is not an African American juvenile attacking a solitary adult and later referring to the "knockout game" but rather a Caucasian British boy doing the exact same thing who calls it "bombing"?—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 18:33, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
:::Stop insinuating that the other editors here are racist. That's a violation of [[WP:AGF]] and [[WP:No personal attacks]]. ''This'' article is about the violent activity known as "knockout". Perhaps there should be a new article about a more generic phenomenon of random assaults or single punch knockouts, that this article could be merged into at some point. But as it stands, the alleged game known as "knockout" is a notable topic on its own right, given the dispute whether it's a menace or myth, and how conservative commentators have embraced the issue.[[User:Plot Spoiler|Plot Spoiler]] ([[User talk:Plot Spoiler|talk]]) 18:40, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
::::I have not said anything of that sort so you are the one violating [[WP:AGF]].—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 18:52, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

== Lead replace ==

As Ryulong is insistent on edit warring I decided to write a smaller lead to go with the longer section on the details. Here is the lead. "The status of Knockout has ranged from urban myth to an actual game, with police grappling with how to advise the public on the subject or if they are different from random assaults. Police in Syracuse have stated that the assailant in one fatal attack was playing the Knockout game. Fears about the spread of the game has been covered in conservative political media, but this has been attributed to stemming from racial roots. Victims and perpetrators involved in "Knockout" indicate that it is not purely a black on white crime." How's it look? [[User:ChrisGualtieri|ChrisGualtieri]] ([[User talk:ChrisGualtieri|talk]]) 18:52, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
:The longer section on the details is problematic because it over inflates comments by the conservative media as well as by individuals reporting on the other side of the fence. We should not have to directly quote Susteren or O'Reilly in such detail to convey their opinions to the reader, particularly Susteren's plea to the stereotypical leaders of America's black community and to the President.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 19:04, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

== Title issues ==
"Knockout (violent game)" does not really work as a [[WP:NPOV|neutral]] article title. It suggests that the game is something that exists, which many sources are not clear on, and "violent" while being an accurate description of the event does not really work in an article title.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 20:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

{{Requested move/dated|Knockout (assault)}}

[[:Knockout (violent game)]] → {{no redirect|Knockout (assault)}} – I'm turning this into a proper move discussion. As previously stated, disambiguating this item as a "violent game" does not meet [[WP:NPOV]] and treats it as something that it is not, as far as I can tell from reliable sources. I believe that disambiguating this as a type of "assault" or maybe even a "criminal trend" (although I'm not as fond as the latter) will make the article more neutral and may help to stem the vandalism that struck it in the past. —[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 20:16, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Article titles|Wikipedia's policy on article titles]].''

*'''Support.''' It is an assault, not a game. Here are the definitions from my Macintosh dictionary:

ASSAULT
noun
1 a physical attack : his imprisonment for an assault on the film director | sexual assaults.
• Law an act, criminal or tortious, that threatens physical harm to a person, whether or not actual harm is done : he appeared in court charged with assault.
• a military attack or raid on an enemy position : troops began an assault on the city | [as adj. ] an assault boat.
• a strong verbal attack : the assault on the party's tax policies.
2 a concerted attempt to do something demanding : a winter assault on Mt. Everest.

GAME
noun
1 a form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
• a complete episode or period of play, typically ending in a definite result : a baseball game.
• a single portion of play forming a scoring unit in a match, esp. in tennis.
• Bridge a score of 100 points for tricks bid and made (the best of three games constituting a rubber).
• a person's performance in a game; a person's standard or method of play : he will attempt to raise his game to another level.

Yours, [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 22:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' I think calling it "Knockout game" would be a preferable title per [[WP:NATURAL]] which states "If it exists, choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title". Almost every reliable source on this topic calls it "knockout game" - [[User:Maximusveritas|Maximusveritas]] ([[User talk:Maximusveritas|talk]]) 20:52, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The subject here is the allegations that there's some sort of game behind the assaults. The tone should be similar to [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/nyregion/knockout-game-a-spreading-menace-or-a-myth.html?_r=0 this]: "Yet police officials in several cities where such attacks have been reported said that the “game” amounted to little more than an urban myth, and that the attacks in question might be nothing more than the sort of random assaults that have always occurred." Aren't you the one violating [[WP:NPOV]] by classifying it as the latter instead of the former, especially when the page you cite says "'''prefer nonjudgmental language'''"? It may be both as Kyuu says, but we should go with the one used in the title of the sources instead of passing our own judgement. [[User:塞翁失马|Sai Weng]] ([[User talk:塞翁失马|talk]]) 21:03, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' It certainly is an assult (nothing allegedly about it), but the purpotrators call it a game. This is a good example of confusing a slang term with the correct grammatical terminology. I can see putting the word "Game" into quotes to illustrate that it is called "Game" not that it is an actual game. Probably the easiest way to approach this is to substitute a different word for "Game" and see how it would read. [[User:Arzel|Arzel]] ([[User talk:Arzel|talk]]) 15:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - since we're dealing with a crime here, we need to use the correct term. The legal definition of assault, therefore in no way applies. A more appropriate and specific term would be [[Battery (crime)]]. Hence, I would support "Knockout Game (battery)". I definitely don't support the current title [[Knockout (violent game)]] since the title is far too vague and sounds much more like a harmless video game. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 19:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Maximusveritas — [[User:Goethean|goethean]] 22:48, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose all proposed titles and the current title too'''. Knockout (battery) sounds like it's a competitor to Duracell. The proposed title sounds like it's a threat. The word "game" used as a disambiguator is ridiculous. "Knockout game" is ambiguous. I hate all of this. [[User:Red Slash|Red ]][[User talk:Red Slash|Slash]] 03:57, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

*'''Support''' : "Game" is the colloquial term given by the perpetrators. "Knockout" as the name is alright, as it describes the whole act similar to "Happy Slapping", but hurting/beating up someone is a crime. None of the victims would call this a harmless game. [[User:Formicula|Formicula]] ([[User talk:Formicula|talk]]) 11:54, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
*:Please note that this discussion is not trying to determine whether or not the act is a game or what the subject should be called. "Violent game" is just a poor disambiguator and does not fit with Wikipedia's policies. Wikipedia articles must use the most common name for items.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 13:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''

'''Both'''. Sadly to say. It is a ''game'' of attackers, involving the ''assault'' of bystanders. Otherwise, if you really want to use just one word for the label, why not ''crime''? [[User:KyuuA4|KyuuA4]] ([[User_talk:KyuuA4|Talk:キュウ]]) 09:18, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

This game was played in Brooklyn and probably other places in NYC in the 80's, and I suspect it probably goes back further. Back then the attacks were predominately black males on black males. You can probably corroborate this by talking to 40 something year old and older prison inmates from NYC. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Crazywayno|Crazywayno]] ([[User talk:Crazywayno|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Crazywayno|contribs]]) 17:06, 24 November 2013 (UTC) 

This needs to be renamed KNOCKOUT (violent ASSULT) because that is what it is! It is NOT a game in any way, shape, or form. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Summerluvr2|Summerluvr2]] ([[User talk:Summerluvr2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Summerluvr2|contribs]]) 20:40, 24 November 2013 (UTC) 

The motive is to knockout the victim, not to rob. Therefore it is a game, a sick game, but a game. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.181.178.243|70.181.178.243]] ([[User talk:70.181.178.243|talk]]) 09:20, 25 November 2013 (UTC) 
*How about [[Knockout (urban legend)]]? --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 22:38, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
::'''Support'''. — [[User:Goethean|goethean]] 22:52, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
::'''Oppose''' there's even less evidence to indicate that this is an urban legend. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 22:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
OK, I propose '''Knockout game,''' since that is what many sources call it. [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 06:02, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
:[[Knockout game]] is a far better title since that's what the outside world calls it. The only reason for anything to be in parentheses is if the "best" title is unavailable. For example, the game Monopoly is at [[Monopoly (game)]]. The actual name used for that game is "Monopoly", but since [[Monopoly]] is an article about monopolies in business, the game has to be at a disambiguated page name. On the other hand, the news media reporting on the knockout game actually calls it the "knockout game", not "knockout". Yes, obviously, I fully agree that it's not a game - it's a violent crime - but that isn't the point. It's not Wikipedia's job to make up a name for something. If the media is going to call it the knockout game, then that's what it should be called here. Even if you think it's a hoax or urban legend that doesn't really exist, that doesn't matter - if the outside world is calling it [[knockout game]] then so should we. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 19:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Whether a game or not, this is what it's commonly referred to. The [[Choking game]] is another example of a "game" not in the traditional sense. It's not like youths are getting together "playing" a "game" of competition, it's just another contrived way to get a thrill. --[[Special:Contributions/68.81.41.132|68.81.41.132]] ([[User talk:68.81.41.132|talk]]) 04:53, 1 December 2013 (UTC)me

== List of attacks ==

This really doesn't do anything to improve the article and will simply become a place for anyone and everyone to list events that the media have linked to this alleged trend. It should really go. The events themselves can be incorporated into the article as a whole, but the list format is not helping anyone.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 20:19, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' for the reasons stated in the proposal. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 22:54, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
* '''Weak oppose.''' I don't see any harm in retaining the list, and of course we have to credit "the media" or another [[WP:Reliable source]] for anything we put here. A list might serve as a handy way of gauging the beginning of the phenomenon under the Knockout game identification and its duration. [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 05:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== Not attributed to knockout in the source ==

I've deleted a reported instance of an assault by teenagers upon a man because nobody in the source called it part of the Knockout phenomenon. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Knockout_%28violent_game%29&diff=583012287&oldid=582994273 the history here]. Shouldn't we insist that a source term it "knockout" before using it? [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 22:48, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

== 60 Year Old Woman Shoots and Kills 2 Teens After Knockout Game ==

http://news.awfbase.com/content/knockout-game-turns-deadly-60-year-old-woman-shoots-and-kills-2-teens-after-being-punched --[[Special:Contributions/88.153.25.240|88.153.25.240]] ([[User talk:88.153.25.240|talk]]) 10:19, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

This has been proven to be false. http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/montgomery.asp [[Special:Contributions/74.110.13.227|74.110.13.227]] ([[User talk:74.110.13.227|talk]]) 17:44, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== Serious injuries? ==

The heading indicates it will describe incidents resulting in serious injuries, but the only article clearly states that the attacker was not seriously injured.

--[[User:Mfwills|Mfwills]] ([[User talk:Mfwills|talk]]) 18:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

If you read the article, it clearly cites numerous examples of serious resulting injuries. Including actual deaths.

[[Special:Contributions/24.60.214.65|24.60.214.65]] ([[User talk:24.60.214.65|talk]]) 03:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

==Assault v. Battery==
We need to get our legal terms straight, here. What we are talking about is not an "[[Assault]]" in the legal sense. The activity described herein is "[[Battery (crime)|Battery]]". Please read the two linked two articles to get a better understanding. In brief, though, ''assault'' does not involve touching. ''Battery'' does. e.g.
* Assault: "I'm going to break your face" (while getting read to swing)
* Battery: Punching someone in the face
* Assault & Battery: doing both of the above [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 19:36, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
::Very good if this were a law textbook. Many folks don't know this. But in normal use, the term basically means to "make a physical attack on." Except in the courtroom an attack upon a sleeping man is also assault even though there was no spoken threat. [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 05:48, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

==Liberal denialism at it again==
A Wikipedia article on knockout game and not a single mention of "black" or "African American". Wow, how surprising! [[User:Behemoth|Behemoth]] ([[User talk:Behemoth|talk]]) 23:07, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
:Agreed. After all, what's a racial panic without race? — [[User:Goethean|goethean]] 01:39, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

::I agree with this sentiment. It is indeed very unfortunate that articles featured in this otherwise magnificent collection of knowledge have a tendency to be neutered by political correctness. "The colors of a fascist don't change just because you call yourself a bleeding heart. [[Special:Contributions/24.60.214.65|24.60.214.65]] ([[User talk:24.60.214.65|talk]]) 03:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
:::Anybody can add to or edit this article. Just find a good source for whatever you add, or state a good reason in the Edit Summary for whatever you take out or change. Thanks. [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 05:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== Miley Cyrus effect? ==

I don't know why this is in the article or why some comment can be equated to some new spur-of-the-moment effect to draw a parallel between this and "Miley Cyrus". I've removed it. Since TV coverage is ramping up this article might need to be watched a bit more heavily. [[User:ChrisGualtieri|ChrisGualtieri]] ([[User talk:ChrisGualtieri|talk]]) 05:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

:I added it the bit on "Miley Cyrus effect" to add insight to the "game" factor. Of course we don't have to mention the "effect", just the motivation. As the article appears now, we are trying to balance two major views on Knockout attacks:
:*Non-racial, juvenile delinquent behavior vs.
:*Hate crimes targeting whites and/or non-Blacks
:[[User:I.am.a.qwerty|I.am.a.qwerty]] ([[User talk:I.am.a.qwerty|talk]]) 14:58, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

== Change name to Knockout (crime) ==

Proposed name change to [[Knockout (crime)]]. The "game" element appears to be one view of such attacks. As the article appears now, knockout incidents are "violent activity", most often treated as crimes. Whether it's a "game" that is "played" in urban areas, or a hate crime targeting non-Blacks, is still subject to debate.

If we change the name of the article to the more NPOV [[Knockout (crime)]], we'd solve some of the issues with the article.

I'd change it myself, but I'd like to do so only after reaching consensus.

Thanks,
[[User:I.am.a.qwerty|I.am.a.qwerty]] ([[User talk:I.am.a.qwerty|talk]]) 14:49, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

:"Crime" is a bit vague. Why not [[Knockout (violent crime)]]? [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 17:49, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

::Sounds better, thanks. [[User:I.am.a.qwerty|I.am.a.qwerty]] ([[User talk:I.am.a.qwerty|talk]]) 18:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
:I'd support [[Knockout (crime)]], similar to [[Battery (crime)]]. There's no need for the "violent" qualifier. I initially supported just [[Knockout game]], but there's already a page for that and there's currently some debate since the term is also used in sports. - [[User:Maximusveritas|Maximusveritas]] ([[User talk:Maximusveritas|talk]]) 19:03, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

::Right. I've just checked, WP has quite a few articles without qualifiers as in [[Boss_(crime)]], [[Racket_(crime)]], [[Conspiracy_(criminal)]], [[Joyride_(crime)]]. I'll move the page shortly.[[User:I.am.a.qwerty|I.am.a.qwerty]] ([[User talk:I.am.a.qwerty|talk]]) 19:11, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

:::Umm, hello. There is a section above discussing a name change. This is highly inapproriate to change the name without participating in the above discussion. [[User:Arzel|Arzel]] ([[User talk:Arzel|talk]]) 19:20, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

::::Well wherever the conversation takes place, this proposal seems to make more sense than the previous knee-jerk one. In light of [[knockout (game)]] (which will presumably be relevant long after this fad is forgotten) and apparent precedent, [[knockout (crime)]] works. [[User:塞翁失马|Sai Weng]] ([[User talk:塞翁失马|talk]]) 19:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
:::::I've reverted the move. There is no consensus to move it to "Knockout (crime)" because it's not a legal term for an actual crime like "racket" or "joyriding", and because there is a separate requested move above seeking a different title.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 20:33, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Thanks. I don't care where the title ends up that much, but a bold move during the move discussion was not a good idea. It is now move protected. [[User:ChrisGualtieri|ChrisGualtieri]] ([[User talk:ChrisGualtieri|talk]]) 01:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

==Urban Legend==
This looks and smells like a legend, one of the few that's actually urban and about urban life, though [rumor panic] is probably the more precise category. I know of folklorists who are at work on the subject now, but of course it won't be citable until the work's made public. Meanwhile, here's a reliable source that can be used to document the fact that there are responsible sources who question the reality of any widespread "game," and suggest that a regrettably ordinary type of motiveless assault is being retroactively assimilated to the category. Of course, there is no surprise if a certain number of bad actors are moved by all this publicity to play the game in real life, a phenomenon called [ostension] in folkloristics. It should get an article if it doesn't have one. [http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/knockout-game-a-crime-trend-or-random-violence][[Special:Contributions/184.155.85.14|184.155.85.14]] ([[User talk:184.155.85.14|talk]]) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 19:26, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 
* See also [[Cow tipping]] [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 00:48, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
* It would be a misrepresentation to label this an "urban legend". That's conclusory. That communicates to the reader that the phenomenon being described is widely spoken about or widely feared but isn't real. The label suggests the phenomenon is primarily the invention of the popular imagination, and not based in actual fact. Here, we have public statements by public officials asserting this "game" is real. The Riverfront Times article cited ("Kids call it a game. Academics call it a bogus trend. Cops call it murder.") quotes St. Louis Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce
<blockquote>St. Louis Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce acknowledges the existence of Knockout King, based on admissions by five defendants. Most of those defendants were charged with misdemeanor assaults, Joyce says.</blockquote>
and St. Louis Metro PD Chief Daniel Isom
<blockquote> "The 'knockout game' is played by a group of kids who, as outrageous as it sounds, go around with the goal of knocking people out, for apparently no reason," says Chief Daniel Isom. </blockquote>
suggesting the game is a distinct trend. There are other statements by witnesses, victims and the police in the other articles cited on the main page under the list of deadly attacks, which are too numerous to detail here. To label this game an "urban legend" is to communicate to the reader that these first-hand accounts are about as believable as a "Nessie" sighting, or that the parties have grossly misinterpreted their own experiences. That's not neutral. The sources cited in the article aren't treating this as folklore or a part of folk culture, they're primarily looking at it as a crime trend, a trend which implicates questions of racial disparity and public policy. Unlike with most urban legends or modern folklore, not only is there documentary evidence here (the numerous videos replayed by TV news affiliates, most of which originated as viral videos on YouTube, WorldStarHipHop, Facebook, other social media) but the documentary evidence is at the very heart of the controversy. This is closer to a something like a "meme" than an "urban legend", both in how the game is spread and transmitted among players and how knowledge of the game rapidly and unexpectedly spread through digital social media.
[[User:SierraOccidental|SierraOccidental]] ([[User talk:SierraOccidental|talk]]) 07:58, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
:None of this discussion really helps to improve the article. The only thing connecting these attacks is that someone was knocked out and they were not robbed. The article covers both sides of the story, that people believe that this is an actual trend going through social media, corrupting the youth, and is only being hidden from the public because it appears that the attacks are predominantly by young black men on white people and and the mainstream media does not want to enflame racial tensions, and that people believe the connection between all of these assaults have been fabricated by the prior party and saying that there is a connection is not going to solve anything socially or to improve the safety of the law abiding public.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 11:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with the statement "None of this discussion really helps to improve the article". Having read the article & several of the citations, as well as all these Talk page comments, I feel that this is all very constructive dialog. Here are a few points that I believe we editors should focus on :
# Having been well-documented on video & by police department officials, the Knockout Game is definitely not an [[urban legend]], according to the definition of that term. This article must therefore give reporting of fact first priority. The article should state that commentators have raised questions, but IMO such commentary should not be given equal weight with factual reporting (see below).
# As of late November 2013, it seems to be unclear whether or not Knockout Game players are predominately racial minorities. This needs to be clarified & the article edited accordingly.
# As of late November 2013, it seems unclear that the focus of the game is black-on-white violence per se. Given the well-documented level of Black-on-Black violence in America, a simpler hypothesis is that the Knockout game at least began as Black-on-Black & is now "expanding" into Black-on-White.
# The "panic" aspect of the story (fears by whites of Black-on-White violence) & the fact that this article has had Edit restrictions placed on it suggests to me that we should create a section "Media Controversy".

My edits will be guided by the above rationale. I welcome & encourage further thoughtful discussion here on how we should proceed. [[User:InBalance|Brad]] ([[User talk:InBalance|talk]]) 23:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
:It is considered an urban legend because that is what [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] say it is and that is all that Wikipedia can say about it. You are not allowed to post your own conclusions on information on Wikipedia. If places say it's an urban legend, then we report it as an urban legend. And unless you can provide reliable sources that state anything you want to say then it is not allowed on Wikipedia. And you cannot use the fact that this page is semi-protected as a reason to add anything regarding "Media controversy" to this page. The only reason it's been protected is because people cannot help themselves from adding useless bullshit to his article based on their personal emotions rather than any sort of actual factual reporting. All this article has to go to say it is anything but an urban legend is the fact that right-wing pundits appear to be seeking a connection between a bunch of unrelated assaults and noting it's young black men generally attacking white men and women, with people unrelated to the attacks saying "Oh yeah, I've heard of knockout" and other people noting that it's ridiculous to connect these and there is no reason to say that these belong to some sort of trend because connecting them solves nothing in preventing them.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 23:54, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
::Ryulong, I'm concerned about your language & tone here. You do not sound impartial & unbiased yourself. Why are you characterizing edits as "useless bullshit"? This topic is clearly controversial, so why are you against a "Media controversy" section? Did you even look at the [[urban legend]] page & think about the criteria stated? It sounds like you've already made your mind up, just like the right-wing pundits you mock. This article needs to be further developed in a careful, even-handed way, for the reasons you cited. Let's please take an impartial & constructive view & create an article that people can actually learn from when they look it up. [[User:InBalance|Brad]] ([[User talk:InBalance|talk]]) 03:12, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
:::I am not against a "media controversy" section. All I am doing is informing you of Wikipedia's rules and regulations on article content. If you can find [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] that [[WP:V|verify]] that this controversy exists, then by all means add it to the article. However, if your content only consists of [[WP:OR|your own personal interpretation of the coverage then it is not allowed]]. That is what is happening with the mention of this being an "urban legend". Multiple sources are stating that the trend is a myth, not the attacks themselves.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 05:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

== This article or section is slanted towards recent events ==

and has been tagged as such. [[User:Checkingfax|Checkingfax]] ([[User talk:Checkingfax|talk]]) 04:28, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

== White perpetrators ==

This article specifically notes one (1) instance of the "Knockout game" in which the alleged perpetrators are identified as "white".

This is the ''only'' instance in which the article sees fit to identify the ethnicity of the alleged perpetrators.

The identity of all the other perpetrators - the very fact in contention - isn't fitting to disclose.

What a telling anomaly. [[Special:Contributions/144.131.202.238|144.131.202.238]] ([[User talk:144.131.202.238|talk]]) 04:36, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
:Stop trying to stir shit. The article mentions "black" and "African American" in multiple locations. The one instance where "white" was used was to show that it is both an outlyer and evidence that the concept that the growing trend of the knockout game isn't one that exists.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 05:24, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you for your polite and helpful scatological advice. To assist your comprehension, none of the references to the "knockout game" identified a perpetrator of any specific attack as being "black", while there were nonspecific references to such attacks being blamed on blacks, for some unidentified reason. How is the reader to know if blaming the attacks on "blacks" has any validity, or indeed if all the attacks not specifically attributed to "whites" were indeed carried out by "blacks". Is that too complex a concept for you? [[Special:Contributions/144.131.202.238|144.131.202.238]] ([[User talk:144.131.202.238|talk]]) 09:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
:::Okay, please stop trying to instigate some level of disruption by pointing out a non-existant disparity in the information that is provided to readers in this article. And I do not see how mentioning race in the section on the fact that race is an unspecified factor in these attacks is improper.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 12:22, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

== Legislation introduced ==

The article should be updated to reflect the recent Knockout Game-related legislation introduced in NY. Assemblyman Jim Tedisco and Senator Hugh T. Farley introduced the Knockout Game Deterrent Act in the NY State Assembly and Senate. [1] [2]

Representative Dean Kaufert in Wisconsin has publicly stated he is considering the introduction of similar measures that would increase penalties for Knockout-style attacks.[3] [4]

Also, it may be notable to mention that the [[National Action Network]] had a rally in Brooklyn, NY to protest the recent spate of Knockout-related attacks and to call on social media to take down online videos of the attacks. The National Action Network is notable as it is headed by civil rights activist Al Sharpton, of MSNBC fame. [5]

[1] http://www.nysenate.gov/news/senator-farley-joins-assemblyman-tedisco-lead-senate-sponsor-knockout-game-deterrent-act 
[2] http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3228303.shtml?cat=300 
[3] http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_24612688/kaufert-considers-bill-targeting-knockout-game 
[4] http://www.afro.com/sections/news/afro_briefs/story.htm?storyid=80582 
[5] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/elderly-woman-city-10th-knockout-game-victim-article-1.1532989 

--00:38, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[[User:PacificRepublic|PacificRepublic]] ([[User talk:PacificRepublic|talk]])
:The law sources are useful. The other ones not so much.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 00:48, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
:: Sharpton... predictable. Going to agree that the legislation makes it more notable and gives weight to the supposed game. [[User:ChrisGualtieri|ChrisGualtieri]] ([[User talk:ChrisGualtieri|talk]]) 00:52, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia - User contributions [en]

Talk:Knockout game