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Braindead (film)

2024-12-03T15:27:49Z

Die-yng: /* Plot */

{{short description|1992 film by Peter Jackson}}
{{Redirect|Dead Alive}}
{{for|other films titled Brain Dead|Brain Dead (disambiguation)#Cinema and television{{!}}Brain Dead (disambiguation)}}
{{Use New Zealand English|date=November 2012}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=December 2020}}

{{Infobox film
| name = Braindead
| image = Dead Alive (1993).png
| alt =
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = [[Peter Jackson]]
| producer = [[Jim Booth]]
| screenplay = {{Plainlist|
* [[Stephen Sinclair]]
* [[Fran Walsh]]
* Peter Jackson
}}
| story = Stephen Sinclair
| starring = {{Plainlist|
* [[Tim Balme|Timothy Balme]]
* [[Diana Peñalver]]
* [[Elizabeth Moody (actress)|Elizabeth Moody]]
* [[Ian Watkin]]
}}
| music = [[Peter Dasent]]
| cinematography = Murray Milne
| editing = [[Jamie Selkirk]]
| studio = {{Plainlist|
* [[WingNut Films]]
* [[Avalon, New Zealand#Avalon Studios|Avalon Studios Limited]]
* [[New Zealand Film Commission|The New Zealand Film Commission]]
}}
| distributor = [[Trimark Pictures]]
| released = {{Film date|df=y|1992|08|13|New Zealand|1993|02|12|United States}}
| runtime = 104 minutes<ref>{{cite web|title=''BRAINDEAD'' (18)|url=https://www.bbfc.co.uk/AFF063991/|work=[[British Board of Film Classification]]|date=10 November 1992|access-date=20 October 2012|archive-date=21 June 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120621013336/http://www.bbfc.co.uk/AFF063991/|url-status=live}}</ref>
| country = New Zealand
| language = English
| budget = $3 million<ref name=numbers>{{cite web|url=https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Braindead#tab=summary|title=Braindead|work=[[The Numbers (website)|The Numbers]]|access-date=4 March 2015|archive-date=2 April 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150402125217/http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Braindead#tab=summary|url-status=live}}</ref>
| gross = $242,623 (United States)<ref name=numbers/>
}}

'''''Braindead''''' (also known as '''''Dead Alive''''' in North America) is a 1992 New Zealand [[zombie comedy]] [[splatter film]] directed by [[Peter Jackson]], produced by [[Jim Booth]], and written by [[Stephen Sinclair]], [[Fran Walsh]], and Jackson based on an original story idea by Sinclair. It stars [[Tim Balme|Timothy Balme]], [[Diana Peñalver]], [[Elizabeth Moody (actress)|Elizabeth Moody]] and [[Ian Watkin]]. The plot follows Lionel, a young man living in South Wellington with his strict mother Vera. After Lionel becomes romantically entangled with a girl named Paquita, Vera is bitten by a hybrid rat-monkey creature and begins to transform into a zombie, while also infecting swathes of the city's populace.

Made on a budget of $3 million, ''Braindead'' was Jackson's most expensive film up to that point.<ref>{{cite book |title=Comedy-Horror Films: A Chronological History, 1914-2008 |url=https://archive.org/details/comedyhorrorfilm00hall|url-access=limited |last=Hallenbeck |first=Bruce G.|publisher=[[McFarland & Company]]|year=2009 |isbn=9780786453788|pages=187–188}}</ref> Although it received positive reviews from critics, it was a [[box office bomb]]. It has since received a [[cult following]], and is now widely regarded as one of the goriest films of all time.<ref>{{Cite web|title=10 of the Goriest Horror Films Ever Made|url=https://www.longlivethevoid.com/news/10goremoviesem|access-date=2021-06-19|website=Beyond The Void Horror Podcast|date=19 June 2020 |language=en-US|archive-date=18 June 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210618190244/https://www.longlivethevoid.com/news/10goremoviesem|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Bond|first=Nick|date=2019-04-21|title=10 Goriest Horror Movies You Need to See From the Last Three Decades|url=https://www.du-hd.com/horror-lists/10-goriest-horror-movies-last-three-decades/|access-date=2021-06-19|website=Dark Universe: Horror Database|language=en-US|archive-date=19 May 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519042319/https://www.du-hd.com/horror-lists/10-goriest-horror-movies-last-three-decades/|url-status=live}}</ref>

==Plot==
In 1957, on [[Skull Island (King Kong)|Skull Island]], zoo official Stewart McAlden and his team attempts to smuggle out a Sumatran rat-monkey, a [[Hybrid (mythology)|hybrid]] creature that resulted from the rape of tree monkeys by plague-carrying rats. While fleeing from the island's warrior natives, who demand the creature's return, Stewart is bitten by the rat-monkey. The crew, fearing the effects of the bite, dismembers and kills him. The captured rat-monkey is then shipped to [[Wellington Zoo]] in [[Newtown, New Zealand|Newtown]].

In [[Hataitai]], the meek Lionel Cosgrove lives with his domineering mother Vera in a Victorian mansion. To Vera's dismay, Lionel falls in love with Paquita María Sánchez, a [[Spanish Romani]] shopkeeper's daughter. When the two go on a date at Wellington Zoo, Vera stalks them and is bitten by the rat-monkey, which she promptly bludgeons with her heel.

Over the following days, Vera grows more decrepit and dies before reanimating as a ravenous [[zombie]]. Vera devours Paquita's dog and kills the attending nurse, Mrs. McTavish, who also returns as a zombie. Although unable to comprehend what's going on, Lionel keeps them sedated with animal tranquilizers and locked in the basement. He frantically covers the mess as Paquita's grandmother comes over to visit and gives him a pendant for luck. Vera breaks out of the basement and is run over by a [[Wellington tramway system|tram]].

Lionel arranges Vera's funeral and burial, keeping her tranquilized to protect the mourners. Later, he returns to the graveyard to administer more tranquilizer, but is beaten by a group of [[hoodlums]] who mistake him for a [[necrophilia]]c. Vera bursts from her grave and attacks the hoodlums. In the ensuing commotion, the gang leader "Void", as well as the local priest Father McGruder, are bitten and become zombies, so Lionel locked them up in the basement as well. After discovering the nurse and priest has copulated and produced a zombie baby, Lionel breaks up with Paquita to keep her safe.

Lionel's uncle Les arrives to wrangle with Lionel over Vera's estate. In the basement, Les sees the tranquilized zombies and believes them to be dead bodies. Les blackmails his nephew into giving up the house and his inheritance. He invites his friends over for a housewarming party despite Lionel's objections.

During the party, Paquita arrives to make amends with Lionel. After she discovers the zombies in the basement, Lionel explains the situation. She convinces Lionel to use poison to kill the zombies. However, Lionel mistakenly injects them with animal stimulant. The pair narrowly escapes as the invigorated zombies rush upstairs and infect the party guests. Lionel uses a lawn mower to mow through the zombies, while Paquita disposes of the (still hostile) zombie body parts with a blender. Les enters the basement, where he is beheaded by Vera, who has now grown to monstrous proportions. Vera erupts from the basement and pursues Lionel and Paquita to the rooftop as the house catches fire from a burst gas pipe.

Lionel confronts Vera and reveals that he witnessed her drowning his father and his mistress as a child, which caused his trauma. After he proclaims to no longer be afraid of her, an enraged Vera stuffs Lionel into her stomach and prepares to kill Paquita. Lionel cuts his way out of his mother's body with the good luck pendant, causing Vera to fall into the burning house.

Lionel and Paquita escape the burning rooftop as the fire brigade arrives. They kiss and then walk away arm-in-arm.

==Cast==
{{Cast listing|
* [[Tim Balme|Timothy Balme]] as Lionel Cosgrove
* [[Diana Peñalver]] as Paquita María Sánchez
* [[Elizabeth Moody (actress)|Elizabeth Moody]] as Vera Cosgrove
** Elizabeth Brimilcombe as Zombie Vera
* [[Ian Watkin]] as Uncle Les
* Brenda Kendall as Nurse McTavish
* [[Stuart Devenie]] as Father McGruder
** [[Stephen Papps]] as Zombie McGruder
* [[Jed Brophy]] as Void
* Murray Keane as Scroat
* [[Glenis Levestam]] as Nora Matheson
* Lewis Rowe as Albert Matheson
* Tina Regtien as Mandy
* Elizabeth Mullane as Rita
* [[Harry Sinclair]] as Roger
* [[Davina Whitehouse]] as Paquita's Grandmother
* Silvio Famularo as Paquita's father
* Daniel Sabic as Baby Selwyn (body)
** Vicki Walker as Baby Selwyn (voice)
* [[Bill Ralston]] as Stewart McAlden
* [[Brian Sergent]] as Vet
* [[Forrest J Ackerman]] as Forry (Tourist at Zoo with ''[[Famous Monsters of Filmland|Monsters of Filmland]]'' magazine)
* [[Peter Vere-Jones]] as the Undertaker
* Tich Rowney as Barry
* Tony Hiles as the Zookeeper
* [[Peter Jackson]] (''cameo'') as the Undertaker's assistant
}}

==Production==
[[Principal photography]] took place over eleven weeks on location in and around [[Wellington]] on a reported budget of around $3 million. The film had its origins while Jackson was filming his feature film debut, ''[[Bad Taste]]'' (1987). He met with writers [[Fran Walsh]] and [[Stephen Sinclair]], who were also interested in creating a zombie film, and the three spent the next several years conceiving the project.<ref name="NZ">{{cite web|url=https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/braindead-1992/background|title=Braindead (1992) - Background|publisher=[[NZ On Screen]]|access-date=16 May 2019|archive-date=20 April 2019|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190420111102/https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/braindead-1992/background|url-status=live}}</ref> The film was shot on [[16 mm film|Super 16mm]], as opposed to 35mm, so that more of the budget could be spent on effects. The film's special effects were crafted by [[Bob McCarron]] and [[Richard Taylor (filmmaker)|Richard Taylor]], with some miniature models being created by Jackson himself.<ref name="NZ"/> For the film's climactic scene, wherein Lionel massacres a horde of zombies with a lawn mower, a reputed 300 litres (79.2 gallons) of fake blood was used.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.rogerebert.com/far-flung-correspondents/one-of-the-most-disgusting-horror-films-ever-made|title=One of the most disgusting horror films ever made|work=[[RogerEbert.com]]|date=20 October 2020|access-date=29 December 2020|archive-date=28 January 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210128011210/https://www.rogerebert.com/far-flung-correspondents/one-of-the-most-disgusting-horror-films-ever-made|url-status=live}}</ref>

The film's music was composed by [[Peter Dasent]].

The film was subject to a [[lawsuit]] after release. In ''Bradley v WingNut Films Ltd'' [1993] 1 NZLR 415, it was alleged that ''Braindead'' had infringed the privacy of the plaintiffs by containing pictures of the plaintiff's family tombstone. After reviewing the New Zealand judicial authorities on privacy, Gallen [[High Court judge (England and Wales)#Title and form of address|J]] stated: "the present situation in New Zealand ... is that there are three strong statements in the High Court in favour of the existence of such a [[tort]] in this country and an acceptance by the Court of Appeal that the concept is at least arguable." This case became one of a series of cases which contributed to the introduction of [[Privacy law|tort invasions of privacy]] in New Zealand.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=McBride |first1=Tim |last2=Tobin |first2=Rosemary |year=1994 |title=Privacy in New Zealand case law - [1994] PLPR 32; (1994) 1 PLPR 48 |url=http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/PLPR/1994/32.html |journal=Privacy Law and Policy Reporter |publisher=Austlii.edu.au |access-date=21 February 2013 |archive-date=11 December 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121211153602/http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/PLPR/1994/32.html |url-status=live }}</ref>

==Filming locations==
{{multiple image
|align=right
|width=170
|direction=horizontal
|image1=Putangirua Pinnacles.jpg
|image2=Graves karori cemetery Wellington.jpg
|footer=[[Putangirua Pinnacles]] (left) and [[Karori Cemetery]] (right), two filming locations used in ''Braindead''
}}
The film was mostly shot in and around Wellington's southern and western suburbs. Some filming locations include:
* [[Putangirua Pinnacles]] acts as [[Skull Island (King Kong)|Skull Island]] in the film.<ref name="Reel">{{cite web|url=https://www.reelstreets.com/films/braindead/|title=Braindead|work=Reelstreets.com|access-date=30 December 2020|archive-date=15 September 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180915210121/http://www.reelstreets.com/films/braindead/|url-status=live}}</ref>
* [[Wellington Zoo]], [[Newtown, New Zealand|Newtown]].<ref name="Reel"/>
* No. 12 Hinau Road, Hataitai, Wellington is Lionel's house in the movie.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-41.3027525,174.7927349,3a,37.5y,269.2h,93.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbcjR20gavZ25qHioYgfLBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 |title=Local Film (12 Hinau Rd, Hataitai, Wellington) |access-date=14 May 2017 |archive-date=8 May 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210508200832/https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-41.3027525,174.7927349,3a,37.5y,269.2h,93.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbcjR20gavZ25qHioYgfLBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tbKGNZBZ4Vo/WRnHBc-eKNI/AAAAAAAAAMI/206cfqc0x_c81eGzO1m3Jcrh5w0PYRmwACLcB/s1600/hinau%2Bwellington%2Bhouse.jpg |title=House map 1 (no 12 Hinau Rd, Hataitai, Wellington) |access-date=15 May 2017 |archive-date=14 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040738/https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tbKGNZBZ4Vo/WRnHBc-eKNI/AAAAAAAAAMI/206cfqc0x_c81eGzO1m3Jcrh5w0PYRmwACLcB/s1600/hinau%2Bwellington%2Bhouse.jpg |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v5KKI5Mqxrw/WRnHBs3oL0I/AAAAAAAAAMM/rG3v55ZhEJsFBxnyFYQbeDlG3-gzaslmQCLcB/s1600/hinau%2Bwellington%2Bhouse%2Brt.jpg |title=house map 2 (No 12 Hinau Rd, Hataitai, Wellington) |access-date=15 May 2017 |archive-date=14 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040542/https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v5KKI5Mqxrw/WRnHBs3oL0I/AAAAAAAAAMM/rG3v55ZhEJsFBxnyFYQbeDlG3-gzaslmQCLcB/s1600/hinau%2Bwellington%2Bhouse%2Brt.jpg |url-status=live }}</ref>
* [[Karori Cemetery]], Wellington.<ref name="Reel"/>
* The store where Lionel and Paquita first meet at 29 Sutherland Rd, Melrose, Wellington, on the corner of Rodrigo Road and Sutherland Road.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.google.com/maps/place/29+Sutherland+Rd,+Melrose,+Wellington+6023,+Niu+Di-l%C3%A2n/@-41.3225629,174.7888091,3a,75y,88.17h,85.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM2-0DPzKPgvt6M_O8-c2NQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x6d38aff5e1b50f11:0xd94680144a029143!8m2!3d-41.3224656!4d174.7890794 |title=Local Film (29 Sutherland Road, Melrose, Wellington) |access-date=17 April 2018 |archive-date=14 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040606/https://www.google.com/maps/place/29+Sutherland+Rd,+Melrose,+Wellington+6023,+Niu+Di-l%C3%A2n/@-41.3225629,174.7888091,3a,75y,88.17h,85.94t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211sM2-0DPzKPgvt6M_O8-c2NQ%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m5%213m4%211s0x6d38aff5e1b50f11:0xd94680144a029143%218m2%213d-41.3224656%214d174.7890794 |url-status=live }}</ref>
* The park used in the scene with Lionel and Selwyn was filmed in the children's play area of the [[Wellington Botanical Gardens]].<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.google.com/maps/@-41.283537,174.7656536,3a,75y,303.47h,76.31t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipO_BxyhMsczEIL1GnxI2PtGHmrj_M2OSrGtDqFP!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipO_BxyhMsczEIL1GnxI2PtGHmrj_M2OSrGtDqFP%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya185.94218-ro-0-fo100!7i8704!8i4352 |title=Local Film (Botanic Garden Playground, Wellington) |access-date=17 April 2018 |archive-date=14 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040544/https://www.google.com/maps/@-41.283537,174.7656536,3a,75y,303.47h,76.31t/data=%213m8%211e1%213m6%211sAF1QipO_BxyhMsczEIL1GnxI2PtGHmrj_M2OSrGtDqFP%212e10%213e11%216shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipO_BxyhMsczEIL1GnxI2PtGHmrj_M2OSrGtDqFP%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya185.94218-ro-0-fo100%217i8704%218i4352 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.google.com/maps/@-41.2836552,174.7658787,3a,75y,20.92h,66.75t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipOmXhzhwZIZm29KpV8-Jm0TVfTYvb_rfxOnKhv3!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOmXhzhwZIZm29KpV8-Jm0TVfTYvb_rfxOnKhv3%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-6.7569165-ya295.43893-ro-3.2617648-fo100!7i7776!8i3888 |title=Local Film (in Botanic Garden Playground, Wellington) |access-date=17 April 2018 |archive-date=14 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040545/https://www.google.com/maps/@-41.2836552,174.7658787,3a,75y,20.92h,66.75t/data=%213m8%211e1%213m6%211sAF1QipOmXhzhwZIZm29KpV8-Jm0TVfTYvb_rfxOnKhv3%212e10%213e11%216shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOmXhzhwZIZm29KpV8-Jm0TVfTYvb_rfxOnKhv3%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-6.7569165-ya295.43893-ro-3.2617648-fo100%217i7776%218i3888 |url-status=live }}</ref>
* A Fieldair Freight DC-3 lands at [[Wellington International Airport]].<ref name="Reel"/>
* Queens Drive, Lyall Bay, Wellington.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.google.com/maps/@-41.3360658,174.7914841,3a,75y,187.84h,79.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2o0qhDQDLl1kQnphAHjTEA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 |title=Local Film (Queens Drive, Lyall Bay, Wellington) |access-date=17 April 2018 |archive-date=14 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040545/https://www.google.com/maps/@-41.3360658,174.7914841,3a,75y,187.84h,79.94t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211s2o0qhDQDLl1kQnphAHjTEA%212e0%217i13312%218i6656 |url-status=live }}</ref>
* Lionel goes to the veterinary clinic on located on 20 Standen St, Karori, Wellington.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.google.com/maps/place/20+Standen+St,+Karori,+Wellington+6012,+Niu+Di-l%C3%A2n/@-41.2801123,174.7500451,3a,75y,91.37h,79.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sKq4txEGPREwrYC5BVBwDNw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DKq4txEGPREwrYC5BVBwDNw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D72.955124%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x6d38b1b4455c551f:0x84d833f0ce632f1a!2sStanden+St,+Karori,+We+6012,+Niu+Di-l%C3%A2n!3b1!8m2!3d-41.2782931!4d174.7490445!3m4!1s0x6d38b1b51af89ab1:0xb76787df43fabf82!8m2!3d-41.2800372!4d174.7503546 |title=Local Film (Standen Street, Karori, Wellington) |access-date=30 May 2018 |archive-date=14 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040546/https://www.google.com/maps/place/20+Standen+St,+Karori,+Wellington+6012,+Niu+Di-l%C3%A2n/@-41.2801123,174.7500451,3a,75y,91.37h,79.04t/data=%213m7%211e1%213m5%211sKq4txEGPREwrYC5BVBwDNw%212e0%216s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DKq4txEGPREwrYC5BVBwDNw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D72.955124%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100%217i13312%218i6656%214m13%211m7%213m6%211s0x6d38b1b4455c551f:0x84d833f0ce632f1a%212sStanden+St,+Karori,+We+6012,+Niu+Di-l%C3%A2n%213b1%218m2%213d-41.2782931%214d174.7490445%213m4%211s0x6d38b1b51af89ab1:0xb76787df43fabf82%218m2%213d-41.2800372%214d174.7503546 |url-status=live }}</ref>

==Release==
''Braindead'' released on 13 August 1992 in New Zealand. It was subsequently released in the United States on 12 February 1993 under the title ''Dead Alive'' and grossed $23,765 in its opening weekend. It eventually grossed $242,623 in the country.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekend&id=deadalive.htm|title=Dead Alive (1993) - Weekend Box Office Results|work=[[Box Office Mojo]]|publisher=[[IMDb]]|access-date=14 July 2019|archive-date=4 April 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160404160406/http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekend&id=deadalive.htm|url-status=live}}</ref> The soundtrack was released in 1992 by [[Mana Music]].

The film has had several releases on [[VHS]], [[Laserdisc]], and [[DVD]] around the world.<ref>{{cite web |title=Dead Alive (1992) - Peter Jackson {{!}} Releases |url=https://www.allmovie.com/movie/dead-alive-v12686/releases |access-date=29 December 2020 |work=[[AllMovie]] |archive-date=20 October 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211020093536/https://www.allmovie.com/movie/dead-alive-v12686/releases |url-status=live }}</ref> It was first released on [[Blu-ray]] as ''Dead Alive'' by [[Lionsgate]] in October 2011, with the US 97-minute cut.<ref>{{cite web |title=Dead Alive Blu-ray: Braindead | Unrated US Cut |url=http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Braindead-Blu-ray/26314/#Overview |access-date=21 February 2013 |publisher=Blu-ray.com |archive-date=14 May 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040623/https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Dead-Alive-Blu-ray/26314/#Overview |url-status=live }}</ref>

In December 2018, Peter Jackson announced that he plans to restore ''Braindead'', along with his previous films ''[[Bad Taste]]'' and ''[[Meet the Feebles]]'' for a possible [[4K resolution|4K]] release.<ref>{{cite web |last=Brzeski |first=Patrick |date=10 December 2018 |title=Peter Jackson Returns to His "Naughty Years" With Restoration of Gory Early Films |url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/peter-jackson-returns-naughty-years-release-early-films-1166096 |access-date=1 February 2019 |work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]] |archive-date=1 February 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190201171909/https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/peter-jackson-returns-naughty-years-release-early-films-1166096 |url-status=live }}</ref>

=== Alternate versions ===
The film was released in a number of different versions. In some nations, such as the United Kingdom and Australia, the 104-minute film was shown in full.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.classification.gov.au/Pages/View.aspx?sid=s2PDqEju%252fEWG1lsiqavP5A%253d%253d&ncdctx=bTMPDe54FXkj0yiDttmoHDg6zUlKWzxC4UAh5%2beQC4qhacUR6%2bf9LikNWHuZiuIY|title=View Title - Braindead|publisher=[[Australian Classification Board]]|access-date=5 March 2018|archive-date=5 March 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180305142859/http://www.classification.gov.au/Pages/View.aspx?sid=s2PDqEju%252fEWG1lsiqavP5A%253d%253d&ncdctx=bTMPDe54FXkj0yiDttmoHDg6zUlKWzxC4UAh5%2beQC4qhacUR6%2bf9LikNWHuZiuIY|url-status=live}}</ref> In fact, the UK's [[British Board of Film Classification]] (BBFC) found the film's gory content so light-hearted and comical that there was consideration on giving the film a 15 certificate, which would have granted it to be seen by a much younger audience. They ultimately decided to give the film an [[18 (British Board of Film Classification)|18]] rating because the amount of gore confounded the expectations of a 15 rating.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.bbfc.co.uk/case-studies/braindead|title=Case Study - Braindead|publisher=[[British Board of Film Classification]]|access-date=5 March 2018|archive-date=5 March 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180305202615/http://www.bbfc.co.uk/case-studies/braindead|url-status=live}}</ref>

In countries where the censors balked at the extreme gore, the film was initially banned or left unrated before being heavily cut. In Germany, a 94-minute version was seen with major cuts to some of the film's grislier scenes but was widely ignored. A [[Freiwillige Selbstkontrolle der Filmwirtschaft|FSK 16]] rated version was released in Germany under the American title ''Dead Alive'', omitting almost the entirety of the violence. The uncut version, as well as several cut versions, are banned in Germany.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.schnittberichte.com/svds.php?Page=Beschlagnahmen&Kat=Filme|publisher=schnittberichte.com|language=de|access-date=2017-11-07|title=Alle Nach §131 StGB beschlagnahmten Filme in Deutschland (Schnittberichte.com)|archive-date=7 November 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20171107170300/http://www.schnittberichte.com/svds.php?Page=Beschlagnahmen&Kat=Filme|url-status=live}}</ref> It is also illegal to publicly exhibit the film in Germany.<ref>{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=c8nY7XfGv7oC&q=braindead+1992+banned+in+germany&pg=PA112|title=Performance and the Politics of Space: Theatre and Topology|first1=Benjamin|last1=Wihstutz|first2=Erika|last2=Fischer-Lichte|date=27 November 2012|publisher=[[Routledge]]|page=112|isbn=9781136210266|access-date=16 October 2020|archive-date=14 May 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040547/https://books.google.com/books?id=c8nY7XfGv7oC&q=braindead+1992+banned+in+germany&pg=PA112|url-status=live}}</ref> The gory violence has also caused the film to be banned in South Korea, Singapore, and Finland.<ref name="NZ"/> However, the film was unbanned and released uncut in the latter country in 2001.<ref>{{cite book|url=https://elonet.finna.fi/Record/kavi.elonet_elokuva_142435|title=Braindead|year=1992|publisher=[[Elonet]]|access-date=19 February 2020|language=fi|archive-date=14 December 2019|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20191214082040/https://elonet.finna.fi/Record/kavi.elonet_elokuva_142435|url-status=live}}</ref>

In the United States, the film was released as ''Dead Alive'', because of another film with rights to the practically identical title ''[[Brain Dead (1990 film)|Brain Dead]]''. There were two versions released in the country; the unrated cut is 97 minutes, and the [[Motion Picture Association of America film rating system|R-rated]] version is only 85 minutes with many of the gore scenes removed.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://everything2.com/title/Dead+Alive|title=Dead Alive|publisher=[[Everything2]]|access-date=15 July 2018|archive-date=11 April 2019|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190411124404/https://everything2.com/title/Dead+Alive|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.filmratings.com/Search?filmTitle=Dead+Alive&x=0&y=0|title=Dead Alive Search Results|work=FilmRatings.org|format=Type "Dead Alive" into the search box|access-date=6 October 2020|archive-date=8 May 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210508042427/https://www.filmratings.com/Search?filmTitle=Dead+Alive&x=0&y=0|url-status=live}}</ref>

==Critical reception==
On [[review aggregator]] website [[Rotten Tomatoes]], the film holds an approval rating of 89% based on {{nowrap|46 reviews}}, with a [[weighted average]] rating of 7.50/10. The site's critical consensus reads, "The delightfully gonzo tale of a lovestruck teen and his zombified mother, ''Dead Alive'' is extremely gory and exceedingly good fun, thanks to Peter Jackson's affection for the tastelessly sublime."<ref name="rottomatoes">{{cite web |title=Dead Alive (1993) - Rotten Tomatoes |url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/dead_alive |work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]] |publisher=[[Fandango Media]] |access-date=28 October 2022 |archive-date=28 November 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201128114245/https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/dead_alive |url-status=live }}</ref> [[Metacritic]] rated it 54 out of 100 based on 7 reviews, indicating "mixed or average reviews".<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/dead-alive |title=Dead Alive Reviews |publisher=Metacritic |date=12 February 1993 |access-date=21 February 2013 |archive-date=2 February 2013 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130202021855/http://www.metacritic.com/movie/dead-alive |url-status=live }}</ref>

At the time of its release, [[David Stratton]], writing for ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'', gave a positive review, calling it "Jackson's best film to date" and praising its humour, acting, and technical qualities (gore effects, makeup). He stated "Kiwi gore specialist Peter Jackson, who goes for broke with an orgy of bad taste and splatter humor. Some will recoil from the gore, but ''Braindead'' wasn't made for them."<ref>{{cite web |last=Stratton |first=David |author-link=David Stratton |url=https://variety.com/1992/film/reviews/braindead-1117901348/ |title=Braindead |publisher=Variety |date=10 June 1992 |access-date=29 April 2020 |archive-date=9 May 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210509172926/https://variety.com/1992/film/reviews/braindead-1117901348/ |url-status=live }}</ref> Peter Rainer of the ''[[Los Angeles Times]]'' enjoyed the film, stating that it "is the most hilariously disgusting movie ever made. It makes something like ''[[Re-Animator]]'' seem like a [[UNESCO]] documentary about [[Mother Teresa]]."<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-07-14-ca-12885-story.html|title=MOVIE REVIEW: 'Dead': Head, Shoulders Above Its Genre|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]|first=Peter|last=Rainer|date=14 July 1993|access-date=20 April 2019|archive-date=20 April 2019|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190420103617/https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-07-14-ca-12885-story.html|url-status=live}}</ref> The film received a negative review from ''[[The Independent]]'' writer Quentin Curtis, who complained that "it never decides whether to make you tremble with laughter or fear, and has outstayed its welcome long before the last limb has been severed and entrail spilled."<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/film-for-a-few-dollars-moore-2323330.html|title=FILM / For a few dollars, Moore|work=[[The Independent]]|first=Quentin|last=Curtis|date=16 May 1993|access-date=20 April 2019|archive-date=20 April 2019|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190420104424/https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/film-for-a-few-dollars-moore-2323330.html|url-status=live}}</ref> For ''[[Entertainment Weekly]]'', [[Owen Gleiberman]] wrote that the film was "breezy and good-natured", giving praise to the gore special effects.<ref>{{cite magazine|url=http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,305823~1~~,00.html|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20091204231513/http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,305823~1~~,00.html|title=Dead-Alive (1992)|magazine=[[Entertainment Weekly]]|first=Owen|last=Gleiberman|author-link=Owen Gleiberman|publisher=[[Meredith Corporation]]|date=12 March 1993|access-date=6 October 2020|archive-date=4 December 2009|url-status=dead}}</ref>

Retrospective reception was also positive. ''Braindead'' placed at number 91 in a top 100 list produced by ''[[Time Out London|Time Out]]'' magazine after conducting a poll with several authors, directors, actors and critics who have worked within the horror genre.<ref>{{cite web |title=The 100 best horror films |date=1 October 2019 |url=https://www.timeout.com/london/film/best-horror-films |work=[[Time Out London|Time Out]] |access-date=13 April 2014 |archive-date=20 January 2013 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130120015803/http://www.timeout.com/london/film/best-horror-films |url-status=live }}</ref> [[Simon Pegg]], actor, comedian, and friend of Jackson, wrote in his autobiography ''Nerd Do Well: A Small Boy's Journey to Becoming a Big Kid'' that ''Braindead'' is one of the main influences on his 2004 zombie film ''[[Shaun of the Dead]]''.<ref>{{cite book |last=Pegg |first=Simon |title=Nerd Do Well: A Small Boy's Journey to Becoming a Big Kid |date=5 June 2012 |publisher=[[Avery Publishing]] |isbn=9781592407194}}</ref>

==Accolades==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year
! Award
! Category
! Subject
! Result
! {{Ref heading}}
|-
|rowspan=4|1992
|rowspan=2|[[Fantafestival]]
|Best Actor
|[[Tim Balme|Timothy Balme]]
|{{won}}
|rowspan=2|<ref>{{Cite web|url = https://www.imdb.com/event/ev0000234/1992/1?ref_=ttawd_ev_6|title = Fantafestival (1992)|website = [[IMDb]]|access-date = 28 December 2020|archive-date = 14 May 2022|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20220514040547/https://www.imdb.com/event/ev0000234/1992/1?ref_=ttawd_ev_6|url-status = live}}</ref>
|-
|Best Special Effects
|{{NA}}
|{{won}}
|-
|rowspan=2|[[Sitges Film Festival]]
|Best Film
|[[Peter Jackson]]
|{{nom}}
|rowspan=2|<ref>{{cite web|url=https://sitgesfilmfestival.com/eng/arxiu/1992|title=25ED. FESTIVAL INTERNACIONA DE CINEMA FANTÀSTIC DE SITGES (2/10 - 11/10)|work=Sitges Film Festivial|access-date=28 December 2020|archive-date=29 January 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210129181736/https://sitgesfilmfestival.com/eng/arxiu/1992|url-status=live}}</ref>
|-
|Best Special Effects
|[[Bob McCarron]] and [[Richard Taylor (filmmaker)|Richard Taylor]]
|{{won}}
|-
|rowspan=10|1993
|[[Imagine Film Festival|Amsterdam Fantastic Film Festival]]
|Golden Scream Award
|Peter Jackson
|{{won}}
|<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://imaginefilmfestival.nl/en/awards-jury/|title=Awards & Jury's|access-date=28 December 2020|archive-date=18 April 2020|archive-url=https://archive.today/20200418150134/https://imaginefilmfestival.nl/en/awards-jury/|url-status=live}}</ref>
|-
|rowspan=2|[[Fantasporto]]
|Best Film
|Peter Jackson
|{{won}}
|rowspan=2|<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.filmfestivals.com/blog/fantasporto/past_winners_fantasporto|title=Past Winners Fantasporto|work=Filmfestivals.com|access-date=29 December 2020|archive-date=24 April 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150424223856/http://www.filmfestivals.com/blog/fantasporto/past_winners_fantasporto|url-status=live}}</ref>
|-
|Best Special Effects
|Steve Ingram
|{{won}}
|-
|rowspan=5|[[New Zealand film and television awards|New Zealand Film and TV Awards]]
|Best Film
|[[Jim Booth]]
|{{won}}
|rowspan=5|<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.lonely.geek.nz/cinema/new_zealand/awards/1993.php|title=New Zealand Awards : Film & TV Awards|work=Lonelygeek.nz|access-date=29 December 2020|archive-date=20 January 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210120183951/http://www.lonely.geek.nz/cinema/new_zealand/awards/1993.php|url-status=live}}</ref>
|-
|Best Male Dramatic Performance
|Timothy Balme
|{{won}}
|-
|Best Director
|Peter Jackson
|{{won}}
|-
|Best Screenplay
|Peter Jackson, [[Stephen Sinclair]] and [[Fran Walsh]]
|{{won}}
|-
|Best Contribution to Design
|Richard Taylor
|{{won}}
|-
|rowspan=2|[[19th Saturn Awards|Saturn Awards]]
|[[Saturn Award for Best Horror Film|Best Horror Film]]
|Peter Jackson
|{{nom}}
|rowspan=2|<ref>{{cite web|url= http://theenvelope.latimes.com/extras/lostmind/year/1992/1992sat.htm |title=19th Saturn Awards |website=Los Angeles Times |access-date=May 17, 2023 |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20061017175755/http://theenvelope.latimes.com/extras/lostmind/year/1992/1992sat.htm |archive-date=17 October 2006}}</ref>
|-
|[[Saturn Award for Best Special Effects|Best Special Effects]]
|Bob McCarron and Richard Taylor
|{{nom}}
|-
|1994
|[[20th Saturn Awards|Saturn Awards]]
|Best Genre Video Release
|{{NA}}
|{{won}}
|<ref>{{cite web|url=https://theenvelope.latimes.com/extras/lostmind/year/1993/1993sat.htm |title=20th Saturn Awards |website=Los Angeles Times |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20061017175615/https://theenvelope.latimes.com/extras/lostmind/year/1993/1993sat.htm |archive-date=17 October 2006}}</ref>
|}

==See also==
* [[1992 in film]]
* [[Giant Rat of Sumatra]]

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
{{wikiquote|Braindead}}
* {{IMDb title|0103873|Braindead (Dead Alive)}}
* {{TCMDb title|72476|Braindead (Dead Alive)}}
* {{mojo title|deadalive|Braindead (Dead Alive)}}
* {{rotten-tomatoes|dead_alive|Braindead (Dead Alive)}}
* {{Metacritic film|title=Braindead (Dead Alive)}}

{{Peter Jackson}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Braindead (Film)}}
[[Category:1992 black comedy films]]
[[Category:1992 comedy horror films]]
[[Category:1992 films]]
[[Category:1990s English-language films]]
[[Category:1990s exploitation films]]
[[Category:1990s monster movies]]
[[Category:1990s New Zealand films]]
[[Category:Films about dysfunctional families]]
[[Category:Film censorship in Germany]]
[[Category:Film censorship in the United Kingdom]]
[[Category:Films directed by Peter Jackson]]
[[Category:Films set in 1957]]
[[Category:Films set in New Zealand]]
[[Category:Films set in Sumatra]]
[[Category:Films shot in New Zealand]]
[[Category:Films using stop-motion animation]]
[[Category:Films with screenplays by Fran Walsh]]
[[Category:Films with screenplays by Peter Jackson]]
[[Category:Films with screenplays by Stephen Sinclair]]
[[Category:New Zealand black comedy films]]
[[Category:New Zealand comedy horror films]]
[[Category:New Zealand slapstick films]]
[[Category:New Zealand splatter films]]
[[Category:New Zealand zombie films]]
[[Category:Rating controversies in film]]
[[Category:Splatterpunk]]
[[Category:Trimark Pictures films]]
[[Category:Wellington in fiction]]
[[Category:WingNut Films films]]
[[Category:Zombie comedy films]]
[[Category:Psycho-biddy films]]
[[Category:Films scored by Peter Dasent]]
[[Category:New Zealand exploitation films]]
[[Category:New Zealand monster movies]]
[[Category:Films about mother–son relationships]]
[[Category:Films about Romani people]]
[[Category:1992 science fiction films]]
[[Category:English-language comedy horror films]]
[[Category:English-language science fiction horror films]]
[[Category:Saturn Award–winning films]]

Talk:Star Wars Theory

2024-09-04T02:58:11Z

Die-yng: /* Inaccurate information, January 21st */

{{Old AfD multi |date=18 October 2021 |result='''keep''' |page=Star Wars Theory}}
{{Old prod|nom=Nemov|nomdate=2021-10-18}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Stub|
{{WikiProject Star Wars |importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Internet culture}}
}}

==Pablo Hidalgo controversy==
In December 2020, [[Lucasfilm Story Group]] executive [[Pablo Hidalgo]] was criticized for privately [[tweeting]] "emotions are not for sharing", allegedly mocking a Star Wars fan's emotional [[YouTube]] video reaction to the season 2 [[Chapter 16: The Rescue|finale]] of [[The Mandalorian]].<ref name="phtc">{{cite news |last1=Vary |first1=Adam B. |title=How a Lucasfilm Exec's Tweet Reopened the Wounds of 'The Last Jedi' |url=https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/star-wars-theory-pablo-hidalgo-luke-skywalker-1234875850/ |work=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]] |access-date=2 May 2021 |date=29 December 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201230203951/https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/star-wars-theory-pablo-hidalgo-luke-skywalker-1234875850/|archive-date=2 May 2021|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Schroeder |first1=Audra |title=Lucasfilm exec locks down after tweet about ‘Star Wars’ fan’s ’emotions’ |url=https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/star-wars-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-twitter/ |publisher=[[The Daily Dot]] |access-date=2 May 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201229000127/https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/star-wars-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-twitter/ |archive-date=2 May 2021 |date=28 December 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Scribner |first1=Herb |title=Why are people mad at Lucasfilm’s Pablo Hidalgo? |url=https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2020/12/28/22203209/star-wars-theory-youtube-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-controversy |access-date=30 December 2020 |work=[[Deseret News]] |date=2 May 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201228225441/https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2020/12/28/22203209/star-wars-theory-youtube-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-controversy |archive-date=2 May 2021|url-status=live}}</ref> After the tweet became public, Hidalgo apologized and clarified that the tweet was meant to be sarcastic.<ref name="phtc" />
{{reftalk}}
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars_Theory&diff=next&oldid=1050595727&diffmode=source
Nemov, you deleted it with the message "this is already mentioned on subject's page." This involves two people. Why would it only be mentioned on one guy's page, and not the other? Its two sentences long, very well referenced. Everyone please give your opinions on this. Is there any reason not to have this in the article? [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 00:01, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
:Since the topic is rather trivial and it's already covered at [[Pablo Hidalgo]] it seems [[WP:UNDUE]] to mention it here as well. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 00:02, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
::Was the emotional fan the person running the Star Wars Theory channel? That connection should be made in the text, because it doesn't make much sense in this article without that context. [[User:Schazjmd|Schazjmd]] [[User talk:Schazjmd|''(talk)'']] 00:09, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
:::Yes, it was this guy. That should be rewritten to clarify it. When I created the article I had that clearly written as: [[Lucasfilm Story Group]] executive [[Pablo Hidalgo]] received coverage for mocking him for crying during the finale of Mandalorian Season 2.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Who is Pablo Hidalgo? Lucasfilm's 'Yoda' gets canceled for bullying 'Star Wars' superfan after he got emotional|url=https://meaww.com/who-is-pablo-hidalgo-lucasfilm-executive-gets-canceled-for-bullying-popular-you-tube-star-wars-fan|access-date=2021-01-12|website=meaww.com|language=en}}</ref> After facing criticism for this, he apologized. <ref>{{Cite web|date=2020-12-29|title=Lucasfilm Exec Apologizes for Mocking Mandalorian Fan's Tearful Finale Reaction|url=https://www.cbr.com/mandalorian-pablo-hidalgo-fan-apology/|access-date=2021-01-12|website=CBR|language=en-US}}</ref> Then Nemov rewrote it later on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars_Theory&type=revision&diff=1021020369&oldid=1020975744&diffmode=source] to what it is now. [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 00:17, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
::::I think it should be included then, just rewritten so it makes sense here. There are good sources, and if it was significant enough to include at [[:Pablo Hidalgo]], it's significant enough here. [[User:Schazjmd|Schazjmd]] [[User talk:Schazjmd|''(talk)'']] 00:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
:I've edited it and added it back for now, but it's kind of silly that some Twitter misunderstanding seems to be the most significant coverage this person has received. - [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:43, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
::Coverage is coverage, but I think including it is correct. If it is included on only one of the articles, it would seem like a WP bias. If notable person X and notable doctor Y get into a legal dispute over malpractice that gets into the news, both X and Y articles should have mention of the dispute, otherwise it would seem like hiding information. It's natural for the dispute to carry more weight for one individual over the other, though, making it a blip on one page, and an elaborated description on the other. -[[User:2pou|2pou]] ([[User talk:2pou|talk]]) 17:42, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
{{reftalk}}

== mentioning some of the famous people he interviewed ==

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars_Theory&type=revision&diff=1050876737&oldid=1050845329&diffmode=source] Nemov edited out something else with the message "The channel isn't a notable organization so it fails WP:NOYT." Notability is determined in an AFD, which this is currently at, with three people there saying it is notable, and only Nemov claiming it is not. Obviously an article for a YouTube channel can link to things on that channel. Opinions please, should it be reinstated? [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 13:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
:Set aside the fact your source was Star Wars Theory's own YouTube videos, unless there's secondary notable coverage there's no reason for it to be included here. If other sources covered those interviews, by all means add them to the article. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:17, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
::[[WP:NOYT]] clearly states ''official channels of notable organizations, such as Monty Python's channel, may be acceptable as primary sources''. Note that [[WP:PRIMARY]] states ''A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a musician may cite discographies and track listings published by the record label, and an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source.'' There is no reason not to mention information about the subject of the article. His channel is about Star Wars, and he has interviewed people that have worked on Star Wars media. That should be mentioned. Other opinions please. [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 13:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
:::It's a real simple question. Did these interviews generate coverage by multiple sources? If yes, include... if not then the information doesn't belong on Wikipedia. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:37, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
::::Articles contain plenty of information that isn't covered by multiple sources. That is not a requirement to be in an article. [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 14:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
:::::
{|style="border-top:solid thin lightgrey;background:transparent;padding:4px;"
|[[Image:Searchtool-80%.png|15px|link=]] '''Response to [[WP:Third opinion|third opinion request]]''':
|-
|style="padding-left:0.6cm"|Coming from 3O, this is a border issue. Notability wise, a YouTube clip doesn't pass. However it can be used to justify factual information that's obvious from watching the official channel, assuming that everyone can agree that it's there. I'm hesitant to go this way, as I hate YouTube as a source, but I'm leaning towards agreeing with Dream Focus.[[User:Stix1776|Stix1776]] ([[User talk:Stix1776|talk]]) 10:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC) [[User:Stix1776|Stix1776]] ([[User talk:Stix1776|talk]]) 10:26, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
|}
:I'm with Nemov on this one. I'm fine with mentioning any interviews that receive coverage in a secondary source. One source would be sufficient for me. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]]) 15:29, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
::{{u|Dream Focus}}, is there some reason you've gone ahead and added this without a consensus? What's the rush? These interviews aren't "obvious" since he's got tons of videos. What sets these videos apart as notable? - [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 04:07, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
:::No response for 6 days, then one person respond to my third opinion request and agrees with me. I get to work on it. I then later notice that while I was working with it, someone else posted here, so stopped for awhile. There is this thing called common sense. If the show is called Star Wars Theory, and he interviews people that worked in the Star Wars franchise, that is something that should be in the article. [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 12:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
::::Please just make sure there's a consensus. There wasn't one. Thanks. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:51, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
:::::Two people agreed, and the only one at the time against it is the one who keeps trying to delete as much of the article as possible, tried to delete it at AFD and failed, and although having no interest in the article's subject keeps arguing on the talk page of it. Your edit history shows you aren't doing much else. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Nemov] [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 12:55, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
::::::Please keep this on topic. There's no reason to make it personal. At Wikipedia we strive to find consensus. One person agreeing with you or me isn't a consensus. Thanks and happy editing. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

== Proposal for deletion; Feb. 22 ==
Not deserving of its own article. This page should be moved to a shared page titled: [[List of Star Wars Content Creators]]. One does not exist yet but I suggest it be made to include Theory and a bunch of other popular creators. Adding on, the article plays a very low significance in the Star Wars WikiProject and is rated as a stub. I feel my proposed idea could one-up those ratings and play an actual role in this project. [[User:TheCoolestKidHere|TheCoolestKidHere]] ([[User talk:TheCoolestKidHere|talk]]) 23:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

:Disagree, there's more than enough here to warrant an article IMO. You can always create the list and link to this article from within it? [[User:NemesisAT|NemesisAT]] ([[User talk:NemesisAT|talk]]) 09:25, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree this article doesn't need to exist. [[User:LordApofisu|LordApofisu]] ([[User talk:LordApofisu|talk]]) 14:28, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

:I proposed this article for deletion [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Star_Wars_Theory|last year]] and the consensus was to keep. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 14:35, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

::Are we still on this? The article exists. The subject was deemed notable and there are multiple sources to back it up. Happy Holidays. [[User:Kjscotte34|Kjscotte34]] ([[User talk:Kjscotte34|talk]]) 10:16, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

== Inaccurate information, January 21st ==

The section concerning the January 2024 Rolling Stone article, stating directly that Theory doesn't think women belong in star wars, etc. is defamatory. The article directly includes falsities and lies, which are addressed with evidence in a follow up video by Theory. His guest, a psychologist and a woman, said that (in her opinion) women don't watch Star Wars - which he did not agree with, and has never stated any of the things the article damns him for - which can be confirmed by watching his videos and hearing his reply. He offered for anyone to cite a source on any of the direct statements RS affirmed as real. Theory has a long history of speaking to the importance of both men and women in the fandom and on the creative level. The article seems designed to commit character assassination, but has no sources to back up any of the accused opinions or statements. Until the RS article and related link (10 and 11) can be confirmed, it should be removed from the entry as unfounded. We should not use Wikipedia to further Internet smear campaigns against content creators without proven sources. [[User:NyxHollow|NyxHollow]] ([[User talk:NyxHollow|talk]]) 22:08, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

:The sources here are [[WP:RS|reliable]]. If you have some reliable sources that counter what's included feel free to share. Your opinions about this person said on their channel is irrelevant and would be characterized as [[WP:OR|original research.]] Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 01:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
::I know you understand that there’s no such thing as “sources that counter” a claim that is unsubstantiated. In order to counter a claim, the claim has to exist. Either SWT said the things the page claims, or he didn’t. There is no counter to something that is not substantiated and there is no EVIDENCE to support what the page says. You are using manipulative language so you can gatekeep this page against baseless accusations. Unless of course, you personally have evidence of what the page claims, in which case SWT will give you 10k. Have you taken him up on the offer? :) [[Special:Contributions/2600:100D:B081:CA25:58F2:4412:58B4:5284|2600:100D:B081:CA25:58F2:4412:58B4:5284]] ([[User talk:2600:100D:B081:CA25:58F2:4412:58B4:5284|talk]]) 13:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
:::If you have a question about Wikipedia policy regarding reliable sources I'll be glad to help. The article reflects what the Rolling Stone article says and it's a reliable source. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
::::I agree about the Rolling Stone being a reliable source in general, but being a reliable source doesn't exclude you from being wrong or from never making any false claims.
::::We have a case here where we have a publication making unsubstantiated claims. Surely not something unheard of.
::::The claims being made in the article are backed by nothing but the article. The source being the video, you can simply watch the video and see that the representation of it isn't accurate.
::::When something is so clearly an opinion piece, despite being from a source that is considered reliable in general, should this really be presented without question here? [[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 02:55, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Star Wars Theory

2024-09-04T02:55:11Z

Die-yng: /* Inaccurate information, January 21st */ Reply

{{Old AfD multi |date=18 October 2021 |result='''keep''' |page=Star Wars Theory}}
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==Pablo Hidalgo controversy==
In December 2020, [[Lucasfilm Story Group]] executive [[Pablo Hidalgo]] was criticized for privately [[tweeting]] "emotions are not for sharing", allegedly mocking a Star Wars fan's emotional [[YouTube]] video reaction to the season 2 [[Chapter 16: The Rescue|finale]] of [[The Mandalorian]].<ref name="phtc">{{cite news |last1=Vary |first1=Adam B. |title=How a Lucasfilm Exec's Tweet Reopened the Wounds of 'The Last Jedi' |url=https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/star-wars-theory-pablo-hidalgo-luke-skywalker-1234875850/ |work=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]] |access-date=2 May 2021 |date=29 December 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201230203951/https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/star-wars-theory-pablo-hidalgo-luke-skywalker-1234875850/|archive-date=2 May 2021|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Schroeder |first1=Audra |title=Lucasfilm exec locks down after tweet about ‘Star Wars’ fan’s ’emotions’ |url=https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/star-wars-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-twitter/ |publisher=[[The Daily Dot]] |access-date=2 May 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201229000127/https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/star-wars-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-twitter/ |archive-date=2 May 2021 |date=28 December 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Scribner |first1=Herb |title=Why are people mad at Lucasfilm’s Pablo Hidalgo? |url=https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2020/12/28/22203209/star-wars-theory-youtube-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-controversy |access-date=30 December 2020 |work=[[Deseret News]] |date=2 May 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201228225441/https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2020/12/28/22203209/star-wars-theory-youtube-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-controversy |archive-date=2 May 2021|url-status=live}}</ref> After the tweet became public, Hidalgo apologized and clarified that the tweet was meant to be sarcastic.<ref name="phtc" />
{{reftalk}}
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars_Theory&diff=next&oldid=1050595727&diffmode=source
Nemov, you deleted it with the message "this is already mentioned on subject's page." This involves two people. Why would it only be mentioned on one guy's page, and not the other? Its two sentences long, very well referenced. Everyone please give your opinions on this. Is there any reason not to have this in the article? [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 00:01, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
:Since the topic is rather trivial and it's already covered at [[Pablo Hidalgo]] it seems [[WP:UNDUE]] to mention it here as well. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 00:02, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
::Was the emotional fan the person running the Star Wars Theory channel? That connection should be made in the text, because it doesn't make much sense in this article without that context. [[User:Schazjmd|Schazjmd]] [[User talk:Schazjmd|''(talk)'']] 00:09, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
:::Yes, it was this guy. That should be rewritten to clarify it. When I created the article I had that clearly written as: [[Lucasfilm Story Group]] executive [[Pablo Hidalgo]] received coverage for mocking him for crying during the finale of Mandalorian Season 2.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Who is Pablo Hidalgo? Lucasfilm's 'Yoda' gets canceled for bullying 'Star Wars' superfan after he got emotional|url=https://meaww.com/who-is-pablo-hidalgo-lucasfilm-executive-gets-canceled-for-bullying-popular-you-tube-star-wars-fan|access-date=2021-01-12|website=meaww.com|language=en}}</ref> After facing criticism for this, he apologized. <ref>{{Cite web|date=2020-12-29|title=Lucasfilm Exec Apologizes for Mocking Mandalorian Fan's Tearful Finale Reaction|url=https://www.cbr.com/mandalorian-pablo-hidalgo-fan-apology/|access-date=2021-01-12|website=CBR|language=en-US}}</ref> Then Nemov rewrote it later on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars_Theory&type=revision&diff=1021020369&oldid=1020975744&diffmode=source] to what it is now. [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 00:17, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
::::I think it should be included then, just rewritten so it makes sense here. There are good sources, and if it was significant enough to include at [[:Pablo Hidalgo]], it's significant enough here. [[User:Schazjmd|Schazjmd]] [[User talk:Schazjmd|''(talk)'']] 00:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
:I've edited it and added it back for now, but it's kind of silly that some Twitter misunderstanding seems to be the most significant coverage this person has received. - [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:43, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
::Coverage is coverage, but I think including it is correct. If it is included on only one of the articles, it would seem like a WP bias. If notable person X and notable doctor Y get into a legal dispute over malpractice that gets into the news, both X and Y articles should have mention of the dispute, otherwise it would seem like hiding information. It's natural for the dispute to carry more weight for one individual over the other, though, making it a blip on one page, and an elaborated description on the other. -[[User:2pou|2pou]] ([[User talk:2pou|talk]]) 17:42, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
{{reftalk}}

== mentioning some of the famous people he interviewed ==

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars_Theory&type=revision&diff=1050876737&oldid=1050845329&diffmode=source] Nemov edited out something else with the message "The channel isn't a notable organization so it fails WP:NOYT." Notability is determined in an AFD, which this is currently at, with three people there saying it is notable, and only Nemov claiming it is not. Obviously an article for a YouTube channel can link to things on that channel. Opinions please, should it be reinstated? [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 13:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
:Set aside the fact your source was Star Wars Theory's own YouTube videos, unless there's secondary notable coverage there's no reason for it to be included here. If other sources covered those interviews, by all means add them to the article. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:17, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
::[[WP:NOYT]] clearly states ''official channels of notable organizations, such as Monty Python's channel, may be acceptable as primary sources''. Note that [[WP:PRIMARY]] states ''A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a musician may cite discographies and track listings published by the record label, and an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source.'' There is no reason not to mention information about the subject of the article. His channel is about Star Wars, and he has interviewed people that have worked on Star Wars media. That should be mentioned. Other opinions please. [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 13:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
:::It's a real simple question. Did these interviews generate coverage by multiple sources? If yes, include... if not then the information doesn't belong on Wikipedia. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:37, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
::::Articles contain plenty of information that isn't covered by multiple sources. That is not a requirement to be in an article. [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 14:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
:::::
{|style="border-top:solid thin lightgrey;background:transparent;padding:4px;"
|[[Image:Searchtool-80%.png|15px|link=]] '''Response to [[WP:Third opinion|third opinion request]]''':
|-
|style="padding-left:0.6cm"|Coming from 3O, this is a border issue. Notability wise, a YouTube clip doesn't pass. However it can be used to justify factual information that's obvious from watching the official channel, assuming that everyone can agree that it's there. I'm hesitant to go this way, as I hate YouTube as a source, but I'm leaning towards agreeing with Dream Focus.[[User:Stix1776|Stix1776]] ([[User talk:Stix1776|talk]]) 10:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC) [[User:Stix1776|Stix1776]] ([[User talk:Stix1776|talk]]) 10:26, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
|}
:I'm with Nemov on this one. I'm fine with mentioning any interviews that receive coverage in a secondary source. One source would be sufficient for me. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]]) 15:29, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
::{{u|Dream Focus}}, is there some reason you've gone ahead and added this without a consensus? What's the rush? These interviews aren't "obvious" since he's got tons of videos. What sets these videos apart as notable? - [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 04:07, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
:::No response for 6 days, then one person respond to my third opinion request and agrees with me. I get to work on it. I then later notice that while I was working with it, someone else posted here, so stopped for awhile. There is this thing called common sense. If the show is called Star Wars Theory, and he interviews people that worked in the Star Wars franchise, that is something that should be in the article. [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 12:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
::::Please just make sure there's a consensus. There wasn't one. Thanks. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 12:51, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
:::::Two people agreed, and the only one at the time against it is the one who keeps trying to delete as much of the article as possible, tried to delete it at AFD and failed, and although having no interest in the article's subject keeps arguing on the talk page of it. Your edit history shows you aren't doing much else. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Nemov] [[User:Dream Focus | '''Dream Focus''']] 12:55, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
::::::Please keep this on topic. There's no reason to make it personal. At Wikipedia we strive to find consensus. One person agreeing with you or me isn't a consensus. Thanks and happy editing. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

== Proposal for deletion; Feb. 22 ==
Not deserving of its own article. This page should be moved to a shared page titled: [[List of Star Wars Content Creators]]. One does not exist yet but I suggest it be made to include Theory and a bunch of other popular creators. Adding on, the article plays a very low significance in the Star Wars WikiProject and is rated as a stub. I feel my proposed idea could one-up those ratings and play an actual role in this project. [[User:TheCoolestKidHere|TheCoolestKidHere]] ([[User talk:TheCoolestKidHere|talk]]) 23:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

:Disagree, there's more than enough here to warrant an article IMO. You can always create the list and link to this article from within it? [[User:NemesisAT|NemesisAT]] ([[User talk:NemesisAT|talk]]) 09:25, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree this article doesn't need to exist. [[User:LordApofisu|LordApofisu]] ([[User talk:LordApofisu|talk]]) 14:28, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

:I proposed this article for deletion [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Star_Wars_Theory|last year]] and the consensus was to keep. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 14:35, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

::Are we still on this? The article exists. The subject was deemed notable and there are multiple sources to back it up. Happy Holidays. [[User:Kjscotte34|Kjscotte34]] ([[User talk:Kjscotte34|talk]]) 10:16, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

== Inaccurate information, January 21st ==

The section concerning the January 2024 Rolling Stone article, stating directly that Theory doesn't think women belong in star wars, etc. is defamatory. The article directly includes falsities and lies, which are addressed with evidence in a follow up video by Theory. His guest, a psychologist and a woman, said that (in her opinion) women don't watch Star Wars - which he did not agree with, and has never stated any of the things the article damns him for - which can be confirmed by watching his videos and hearing his reply. He offered for anyone to cite a source on any of the direct statements RS affirmed as real. Theory has a long history of speaking to the importance of both men and women in the fandom and on the creative level. The article seems designed to commit character assassination, but has no sources to back up any of the accused opinions or statements. Until the RS article and related link (10 and 11) can be confirmed, it should be removed from the entry as unfounded. We should not use Wikipedia to further Internet smear campaigns against content creators without proven sources. [[User:NyxHollow|NyxHollow]] ([[User talk:NyxHollow|talk]]) 22:08, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

:The sources here are [[WP:RS|reliable]]. If you have some reliable sources that counter what's included feel free to share. Your opinions about this person said on their channel is irrelevant and would be characterized as [[WP:OR|original research.]] Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 01:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
::I know you understand that there’s no such thing as “sources that counter” a claim that is unsubstantiated. In order to counter a claim, the claim has to exist. Either SWT said the things the page claims, or he didn’t. There is no counter to something that is not substantiated and there is no EVIDENCE to support what the page says. You are using manipulative language so you can gatekeep this page against baseless accusations. Unless of course, you personally have evidence of what the page claims, in which case SWT will give you 10k. Have you taken him up on the offer? :) [[Special:Contributions/2600:100D:B081:CA25:58F2:4412:58B4:5284|2600:100D:B081:CA25:58F2:4412:58B4:5284]] ([[User talk:2600:100D:B081:CA25:58F2:4412:58B4:5284|talk]]) 13:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
:::If you have a question about Wikipedia policy regarding reliable sources I'll be glad to help. The article reflects what the Rolling Stone article says and it's a reliable source. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
::::I agree about the Rolling Stone being a reliable source in general, but being a reliable source doesn't exclude you from being wrong or from never making any false claims.
::::We have a case here where we have a publication making unsubstantiated claims. Surely not something unheard of.
::::The claims being made in the article are backed by nothing but the article. The source being the video, you can simply watch the video and see that the representation of it isn't accurate.
::::When something is so clearly an opinion piece, despite being from a source that is considered reliable in general, should this really be presented as such a large part of the wikipage here? [[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 02:55, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Ariel School UFO incident

2024-01-23T23:26:14Z

Die-yng: /* Terrible, Terrible Article! */ Reply

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== Terrible, Terrible Article! ==

As I understand it, you have two main priorities. Firstly, to inform your readers of the facts. And secondly, to do so impartially, presenting the facts objectively rather than subjectively. This article is very partial indeed, and heavily slanted towards presenting this event as proof that aliens from other planets are visiting Earth. Well, perhaps they are. But if this case is the best evidence for it, I'm about as likely to meet one as I am to be eaten by a dragon.

To begin with, we're told that 62 children - a very precise number - witnessed the spacecraft, the aliens, or whatever. We're then told that "not all the children at the school that day claimed that they say something". The claim being made here is that a flying saucer descended from the sky in broad daylight and landed a couple of hundred yards away in plain view of all the children, so it would be very remarkable indeed if not all of them noticed the big shiny alien starship next to the playground. Therefore the numbers matter. And buried in the footnotes where most people aren't going to bother looking, we find an actual number:

The Mail & Guardian article linked says that there were "more than 110 children and staff" at the school that day. The Brian Dunning article says "250 schoolchildren were all outside playing at the Ariel School".

Oh no, wait, that's two numbers, one of which is more than twice as big as the other! So which is it? The one given by a tabloid journalist writing in 2014 about an alleged UFO sighting in 1994, or the one from a rabid anti-paranormalist's blog? I've seen 200 or 210 or thereabouts quoted elsewhere, so maybe the overenthusiastic Mr Dunning exaggerated a little. As for 110, it's by far the lowest estimate I've seen anywhere, and suggests the journalist misread 210 as 110. Either way, it seems that somewhere between almost half and three-quarters of the potential witnesses somehow didn't notice the equivalent of an elephant in the room, only more so, since if you live in Zimbabwe you've probably seen more elephants than most people ever do, but not that many extraterrestrial spacecraft.

So why is such an important number in the footnotes rather than the body of the article? It's almost as if the writer is hoping the reader won't notice it down there, and will be left with the impression that "not all" means "nearly all". Which puts an entirely different perspective on the matter, since it's perfectly plausible that a few of the kids had gone to the toilet or something, but 50 or 150 or 190 of them, not so much! And of the two figures quoted, one is the by far the lowest given by any reasonably reliable source I've seen, and the other is from a controversial self-appointed crusader against all things paranormal who has no scientific qualifications and was recently imprisoned for fraud.

Which brings us to another important point. Whenever anything favourable to the notion that this really was an encounter with aliens is referenced, the source is a newspaper, or the BBC, or at any rate some fairly significant institution or media outlet. Yet practically every point against this hypothesis is sourced to Brian Dunning and him alone, usually with qualifiers such as "according to sceptic Brian Dunning" or "Dunning says that", as if it's purely his personal opinion, and if you choose not to trust him you can throw it out of the window.

One very important aspect of this case is that, two days previously, numerous people in Zimbabwe had seen a truly spectacular fireball accompanied by a sonic boom which could in the literal sense of the word be described as a UFO, since it was certainly an object, certainly flying, and it was a while before it was conclusively identified as debris from a satellite launch about which the Russians hadn't been very forthcoming because it involved top secret military hardware. Therefore the Zimbabwean media was abuzz with speculation about flying saucers and all the usual nonsense. Less than 48 hours later, a group of excited children between the ages of 6 and 12 became convinced they've seen a flying saucer land next to their school. As they stand, the facts strongly favour the mass hysteria hypothesis. I suppose a real alien spacecraft might just happen to arrive at the precise moment when the local population were in a flap over another thing they wrongly thought was an alien spacecraft, but it would be one hell of a coincidence! An important point, no? This is how your article handles it:

Two days prior to the incident at Ariel there had been a number of UFO sightings throughout southern Africa.[1][2][5] There had been numerous reports of a bright fireball passing through the sky at night.[2][5] Many people answered ZBC Radio's request to call-in and describe what they had seen.[2] Although some witnesses interpreted the fireball as a comet or meteor,[1][5] it resulted in a wave of UFO mania in Zimbabwe at the time.[2][7] According to sceptic Brian Dunning the fireball “had been the re-entry of the Zenit-2 rocket from the Cosmos 2290 satellite launch. The booster broke up into burning streaks as it moved silently across the sky, giving an impressive light show to millions of Africans.”[2] Local UFO researcher Cynthia Hind recorded other alien sightings at this time including a daylight sighting by a young boy and his mother and a report of alien beings on a road by a trucker.[1]

If I knew nothing at all about the incident, I'd probably interpret that paragraph to mean that the UFO had never been conclusively identified - "some witnesses interpreted the fireball as a comet or meteor" - and the best evidence that it was in fact a specific piece of Russian space debris is the word of a man who, if I click the link to your own page about him, I discover to be a smug know-it-all with no expertise in rocket science, though he does have a criminal conviction for telling lies. Therefore I could reasonably assume that, as your article implies, the fireball might very possibly have been something other than a Russian rocket, including an alien spaceship, presumably the same one the children saw shortly afterwards, and also the same one as various other people supposedly encountered at round about the same time, according to Cynthia Hind.

So here's the question a real encyclopedia written by grown-ups ought to be asking itself: is the most reliable source for the claim that the fireball resulted from a Russian satellite launch really Brian Dunning, or is it perhaps NASA? Of course, if NASA aren't terribly sure what it was and Russian space junk is merely their best guess, or they have no opinion at all and Brian Dunning is clutching at straws, or they say categorically that it wasn't from Russia therefore Brian Dunning is lying, you should print that because it's the truth, and if the sceptics don't like it they can lump it. But I was under the impression that NASA and other space agencies around the world routinely track all this stuff, so it might be worth having a look in their database, don't you think?

And so on. Throughout this short article I'm constantly seeing deceptive or weasly wording which in every case strives to make the case for the aliens being real a lot stronger than it truly is. "Some children in the school claimed that they had not seen anything unusual that day", another quote sourced to Brian Dunning. "Some children" meaning "at least 50 and possibly 190 children", which is a wee bit different! And of course "claimed" is a very loaded word. The implication seems to be that kids with an average age of 9 couldn't possibly lie about seeing a flying saucer, but they might very well lie about NOT seeing a flying saucer when in fact there was one!

Likewise, attributing every little bit of nay-saying to the obviously untrustworthy Brian Dunning allows almost any awkward detail to be brushed under the rug. "He challenged the often-repeated claim that as rural schoolchildren in Zimbabwe, the witnesses would have not have had exposure to modern media and so would not have been familiar with the concept of UFOs and alien visitors." If this claim is "often-repeated" yet challenged only by Brian Dunning, it's reasonable to argue that it's probably true. But click the link to the picture gallery at the bottom of this very article, and you will see that one child has drawn a flying saucer with "UFO" written on it. Furthermore, a very detailed drawing signed "Fungei Merengere", who I presume from the name to be one of the black children who supposedly knew nothing at all about UFOs and believed the "aliens" to be dreaded child-eating goblins from African folklore, shows what is unmistakably the flying saucer from the TV series "The Invaders"! I think one or two of the children might possibly have been exposed to modern media at some point, don't you?

And while we're on the subject of that "often-repeated" claim, let's have a look at one of the sources that repeat it. "Skeptics have described the incident as one of mass hysteria", says your article, quoting two sources, one of which is of course Brian Dunning. The other is "Episodes of mass hysteria in African schools: a study of the literature" by one Demobly Kokota, writing in the Malawai Medical Journal. Well, that sounds properly scholarly, doesn't it? Let's see what the good Dr Kokota has to say regarding the not entirely trivial question of whether it was proper space aliens or all down to childish overexcitement:

"In 1994, 62 school children all reported seeing an alien craft land and extraterrestrial creatures emerge. Virtually every single one of the 62 children iterated the exact same story with same details and none of them had gone against his/her story. Many dismissed the 1994 incident as mass hysteria affecting the children. But when the children were found to not have much prior knowledge to UFOS or popular UFO perceptions, many other people believed that what the children witnessed could have been real. The children were asked to draw what they have encountered the day prior."

That's the case for mass hysteria, in its entirety. You will observe that Dr Kokota leans heavily towards admitting that this was an actual alien encounter and not mass hysteria at all, an attitude he doesn't take towards any of the other cases he describes, none of which involve UFOs. But then, as the title of the paper makes plain, Dr Kokota didn't personally research any of these cases. He is merely quoting the literature, which he takes at face value. Most of the authors he quotes are medical professionals. His sources for the Ariel School incident? He cites precisely one: Cynthia Hind.

She is of course the amateur UFO investigator who brought the afair to the world's attention, and accidentally managed to get the vastly more famous John Mack involved (mainly because he'd already scheduled a trip to South Africa to meet the extremely weird Credo Mutwa). Is she a reliable source? Not really. The entire run of her self-published 'zine UFO Afrinews can be found online, and it's obvious that she uncritically believed just about anything told to her by anyone about UFOs and aliens, as well as the claims of fifties Space Brother contactees, wacky UFO cult leaders, and other oddballs even the mainstream UFO crowd consider fringe at best. If you want to read what she said about this case, see issues 11 and 12.

See also the YouTube video of Cynthia Hind's intial interview with a few of the witnesses, which, brief though it is, seems to comprise about half of her entire "investigation", along with another interview conducted months later after John Mack had become involved. The video might usefully be linked with this article, since it provides a helpful snapshot of what this case was all about before John Mack later encouraged the children to invent stories that fitted his own belief-system and then explained to them that what they'd just invented was in some magical way literally true, and what they'd previously remembered as having happened wasn't.

Yet another objection which this dismal article tries to duck with the "Brian Dunning personally believes this so it's only true if you trust him" excuse that covers everything is the claim that nobody said anything about cosmic space telepathy, or indeed communication of any kind with the aliens, until John Mack came along and put those ideas into the children's heads. What Cynthia Hind herself wrote, and what she and the children said on camera days after the event and weeks before Mack got involved, makes what Brian Dunning does or does not personally believe irrelevant, because it's an objectively true fact that at this point in the story nobody said a word about telepathic close encounters, or even claimed to have been closer to the aliens than a hundred yards at best. In fact, it's striking to learn how little they initially claimed to have seen. One boy had a momentary glimpse of sunlight reflecting off something, which he ignored because it didn't seem important at the time. And there's the girl who admits on camera that she initially believed the strange figure she saw to be the school gardener, then decided it was an alien, and finally changed her mind yet again and concluded it was the gardener after all! Strangely, when Hind quotes this girl in her write-up of the case, she leaves out that last bit.

Basically, if you present the case in chronological order, stick to the actual facts, and leave out all the stuff implying "you can believe 62 children about the aliens being real, or one convicted fraudster about it being nonsense, there are no other choices", you've got a scenario consistent with children who were already worked up about UFOs squinting into a heat-haze (the sighting took place close to midday in Africa during a drought) at a blurred shiny object which more than one child described as being painted green apart from the shiny bits that moved along beside the power-lines more or less at ground level, perhaps a little higher but never above the height of the trees it was partly obscured by, but which none of them (except one - there's always one) actually saw high up in the sky, and presently departed in some strange manner, disappearing rather than flying away (though Cynthia Hind unsuccessfully tried, on camera, to persuade one little girl that she saw it fly away because it must have done). And in the meantime, a person in dark clothing with pale skin and long dark hair (or no hair at all - the accounts are nowhere near as consistent as some people would have you believe) and huge black eyes got out, looked at the children for a few moments, and got back in.

Or in other words, a long-haired white woman wearing dark clothing and sunglasses drove along the dirt track beside the power line in a landrover. She stopped for a few moments, gazed with idle curiosity at the children, and drove off again. Seen through an intense heat-haze, with a partial mirage effect tending to make everything distorted and shiny, that could account for just about everything the children described or depicted (except maybe Fungei Merengere, who apparently had an extremely clear view of a fictional spaceship off the telly - I notice that a boy identified only as "Fungei" was one of John Mack's most helpful witnesses) from the moment they actually saw it until six weeks later, when John Mack arrived and explained, rather more subtly and persuasively than the blundering, hopelessly dim-witted Cynthia Hind, that up till now they'd got it all wrong, but he knew what really happened and would be delighted to help them remember it properly.

I admit that's a neither neutral nor objective description of this peculiar incident. But it's less biased and considerably more factually accurate than the one you've currently got. This event is often touted as one of the best proofs, if not THE best, that visitors from outer space are here. Perhaps it deserves an article which would give people who know nothing about it a clear picture of what actually happened? If Brian Dunning is a primary source, by all means use him as a reference, but not if he's a secondary source and the actual data was supplied by NASA. If Cynthia Hind didn't say or write one word about telepathic space messages until John Mack turned up six weeks later, and neither did anybody else, including the actual witnesses, then it's an objective fact and should be stated as such, and Brian Dunning's personal opinion is irrelevant. And so on.

If, on the other hand, you think this is a load of silly nonsense unworthy of your time and effort, then no article at all would be better than one which is far more concerned with promoting a rather weird belief-system than getting the facts right, the way it would be required to if it was an article in a real encyclopedia. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.143.52.255|86.143.52.255]] ([[User talk:86.143.52.255#top|talk]]) 21:40, 16 May 2022 (UTC) 

: My brother in Christ, anybody can edit this article. If you have improvements to make go ahead and make them. [[User:EricthePinko|EricthePinko]] ([[User talk:EricthePinko|talk]]) 11:56, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
:The point of the article is to relate the story as accurately as possible, faithful to the children's experiences. The children largely experienced it as "aliens" although some thought it was a spiritual experience with spirit beings. I don't happen to believed UFOs generally represent interplanetary travel. But it's not my story. I think it was told in much the same vein as a description of, for example, The Miracle of the Sun. IOW,neutral.journalistic. There is not enough data for a scientific study, so let's keep it at the experiential level. [[Special:Contributions/2603:8080:E600:1889:7380:C46B:7421:248A|2603:8080:E600:1889:7380:C46B:7421:248A]] ([[User talk:2603:8080:E600:1889:7380:C46B:7421:248A|talk]]) 01:19, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
::Frankly, that makes no sense. The point of the article can not be to present the story accurately to the children's experience. It should be to provide as close as possible a description of what actually happened. It should be limited to actual facts, as far as that goes, and then you could add a section for the accounts of the children.
::Otherwise, this really has no place at all in an encyclopedia.
::To clarify what I mean, if we were to, for example, write an article about riots at a football/soccer game, wouldn't we first present an accurate description of the facts, and only then maybe refer to some eyewitnesses? I mean, what could seriously be the sense in describing ANY event through the eyes of someone who was there at that moment?
::That is something for a film, a documentary, a book, a scientific study might involve full accounts of eyewitnesses, but that's not what an encyclopedia is for.
::And I also agree with the initial assessment of the article being quite loaded and opinionated in regard to language and presentation.
::For example, what exactly has Brian Dunning being guilty of wire fraud has to do with his investigation into this?
::Don't get me wrong, by all means, point out that he is a fanatic and not objective (with sources, of course), but the way this is presented here it absolutely feels as if it is just used to completely disregard his points due to him being a convicted fraudster for something not at all related with the topic. [[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 23:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Starwolf (novel series)

2023-12-20T09:40:12Z

Die-yng: /* The Weapon from Beyond (1967) */ removed a wrong link. The alien race here is named Krii and has nothing to do with the Kree from Marvel Comics and Films.

{{italic title}}
{{about|the trilogy by Edmond Hamilton|the novel series by David Gerrold|Star Wolf (novel series)}}
'''''Starwolf''''' is a series of three [[novel]]s by [[Edmond Hamilton]] featuring heavy-worlder Morgan Chane. Chane was the son of a human [[missionary]] family to a heavier-than-Earth-normal world (higher gravity) of [[Viking]]-like [[Extraterrestrial life|aliens]].<ref name=":0">{{Cite book |last=Hamilton |first=Edmond |url=https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2522996.Starwolf |title=Starwolf |publisher=Ace |year=1982 |isbn=9780441784226 |location=USA |author-link=Edmond Hamilton}}</ref> During the years of his life, his parents died and left him an orphan to be incorporated into the Starwolf society. As an adult he felt himself to be as much a Starwolf as his alien companions. After a dispute over plunder with a fellow Starwolf (leaving the other Starwolf dead), Chane flees (under threat of death) from Starwolf society. As a fugitive and hiding his ex-Starwolf status (the rest of the galaxy "declares a holiday when a Starwolf is killed"<ref name="StarwolfHoliday">''The Weapon from Beyond'', Ace Books. Dilullo, the only human to know of Chane's Starwolf background, reminds Chane of this.</ref>), Chane becomes part of a "Merc" human [[mercenary]] group commanded by a Merc named John Dilullo.<ref name="series">''The Weapon from Beyond'', Ace Books</ref>

== Books ==

=== ''The Weapon from Beyond'' (1967) ===
While in intersteallar space Morgan Chane survives a deadly chase by his ex-fellow robbers from Varnan, ''Starwolves'', one of which he killed in a self-defence. On his escape he gets captured by an experienced starship captain, Dilullo from Earth who is leading a group of Mercs (mercenaries) with a mission to a planet called Kharal. Captain saves him, but quickly learns that he is one of Starwolves, well known robbers who raided almost entire galaxy and whom it's usual to kill on spot. Learning about his trouble, captain Dilullo offers him to join his mission to Kharal and share reward. As usual for Mercs, the mission promised to be dangerous so in exchange for his help Captain offered to keep origin of Morgan Chane secret. After landing on Kharal they learn about details, reward, and about enemies of Kharal, the planet Vhol who they are at war with, and who are about to obtain super weapons capable to destroy entire Kharal. Mercs accept their mission and are tasked to find weapon's whereabouts and destroy it before enemies of Kharali can use it. While on the Kharal, Morgan Chane gets jailed for trouble with natives of the planet. While in prison he gest contacted by Captain Dilullo who then tasks Morgan Chane with releaseing a Vhollian officer named Yorolin who was interrogated by Kharalli from the same prison where he was held.<ref name=":0" />

Morgan Chane gets the job done and the team leaves for the Vhol unnoticed with prisoners on board. There, with great effort and trouble they learn about whereabouts of superweapons and set out toward nebulae. Vhol-lans send a cruiser after them. On their way they face Starwolves once again, but luckily appeared Vhol-lans cruiser gets involved and gives a chance for Mercs to escape the battle. By tracing cruiser's path, they reach nebulae's planet where super weapons were expected to be found, but find only enormous intergalactic spaceship wreckage. Mercs captured vhol-lans scientists present at the ship who explained that there was no super weapons and this ship belonged to an ancient powerful alien race called Krii, who accidentally landed on the planet, but survived in [[Stasis (fiction)|stasis]] for many years and were awaiting their rescuing fellows Krii-s who were expected to appear soon.

Mercs learn that Vhol-lans had one of their cruisers survived the battle with Starwolves and both landed on the planet. They prepared to storm Mercs positions, but soon the fight was interrupted by Krii-s second super-ship appearance. By using some unknown technology Krii-s made all weapons, power plants, and engines on the planet "frozen" and useless. Krii came to save their fellows and what was on the wrecked ship. Once they finished their job, the wreackage gets destroyed by Krii, leaving only trail in the sands and second ship disappears.<ref name=":0" />

Mercs quckly depart for Kharal to get reward and set their way towards Earth.<ref name=":0" />

=== ''The Closed Worlds'' (1968) ===
{{Expand section|date=September 2023}}
While on Earth, Morgan Chane, captain Dilullo, I. Bollard, and others once again team up to get a new mission. This time they are hired by a wealthy earth businessman and trader James Ashton for $500k to find his brother, Randall Ashton, who disappeared in the Closed Worlds. The latter are notable for being so dangerous and so mysterious that even starwolves don't dare to step their foot on - they have laws that bar them from landing on Arkuu, the planet of the Closed World, where natives don't wellcome anyone. The mercs accept the deadly offer and leave for the Closed Worlds.<ref name=":0" />

=== ''World of the Starwolves'' (1968) ===
{{Expand section|date=September 2023}}

== Adaptations ==
The series was later adapted into a television series [[Star Wolf (TV series)|of the same name]] in Japan, which were in turn edited into two English-language films, both featured in ''[[Mystery Science Theater 3000]]''..

The book series were also translated in Russian in 90s.

==References==
<references />

[[Category:1960s novels]]
[[Category:American science fiction novels]]
[[Category:American novel series]]

{{1960s-sf-novel-stub}}

Dead Space (film)

2023-09-15T23:19:01Z

Die-yng: Removed the word "new" two times, because it makes no sense in context. If the film RETAINS the original storyline and character set-up then those aren't new. You can either retain a storyline or have a new one.

{{About|the 1991 film|the 2008 animated film|Dead Space: Downfall|the 2011 animated film|Dead Space: Aftermath}}
{{Infobox film
| name = Dead Space
| image = Dead Space.jpg
| caption = VHS cover
| director = [[Fred Gallo]]
| producer = [[Mike Elliott (film producer)|Mike Elliott]]
| writer = Catherine Cyran
| starring = [[Marc Singer]] Laura Tate [[Judith Chapman]] [[Bryan Cranston]] [[Randy Reinholz]] [[Lori Lively]]
| music = Daniel May
| cinematography = Mark Parry
| editing = Lawrence Jordan
| distributor = Concorde Pictures
| released = {{Film date|1991|01|21}}
| runtime = 72 minutes
| country = United States
| language = English
| budget =
| gross =
}}
'''''Dead Space''''' is a 1991 American science-fiction horror film directed by Fred Gallo and produced by [[Mike Elliott (film producer)|Mike Elliott]].<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b7a9c15c4|title = Dead Space (1991)}}</ref>

==Plot==
In the research facility on the planet Phablos, a virus is created in a botched experiment which turns those infected into monsters. An emergency distress call is sent from the lab.
A spacecraft crewed by Commander Steve Krieger and robot sidekick Tinpan respond to the emergency call from the planet, but their craft is attacked and damaged on the way to Phablos.

Upon their arrival at Phablos, those in charge of the laboratory explain that they have managed to contain the virus. Krieger accepts the lab's claims and begins repairs on his ship. The scientist had not been entirely honest with Krieger, and had been attempting to study the virus rather than contain it.

Unfortunately, the virus escapes and infects a lab worker, leaving the lab to face a killer virus that turns them into alien monsters.

Krieger and Tinpan attempt to stop the monster, but their weapons prove ineffective. One of the lab workers develops a bioweapon that proves effective in stopping the monster.

==Cast==
* [[Marc Singer]] as Commander Steve Krieger
* Laura Tate as Dr. Marissa Salinger
* [[Bryan Cranston]] as Dr. Frank Darden
* [[Judith Chapman]] as Dr. Emily Stote
* [[Randy Reinholz]] as Tim
* Frank Roman as Sal Dickens
* [[Lori Lively]] as Jill Tollman
* Greg Blanchard as Joe
* Rodger Halston as Tinpan (as Rodger Hall)
* Liz Rogers as Devon Latham

==Production==
The movie is a remake of the 1982, [[Roger Corman]]-produced horror film ''[[Forbidden World]]'' and while there are minor differences, it still retains the original main storyline and character set-up. Singer said that he had fun shooting the movie, and felt that it was an "unpretentious, rip-roaring space adventure."<ref>Jankiewicz, P. King of the Beast. ''Starlog'' 271. p. 65 Feb. 2000</ref> The film had a working title of ''Biohazard''.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b7a9c15c4|title = Dead Space (1991)}}</ref> Like the original, some of the space battle effects were reused from ''[[Battle Beyond the Stars]]''.

The effects team wanted a monster different from anything that had been seen before, a task made more complicated as the movie was shot in three weeks. An inner harness was developed which allowed for rapid mobility of the actor in the monster suit. GM foam and hair inserts were used to show the transformation of human into monster.<ref>''Gorezone'' #18</ref>

==Reception==
''[[TV Guide]]'' found the movie a weak entry into the man versus monster genre. It felt it borrowed heavily from ''[[Alien (film)|Alien]]'' and ''[[Star Wars]]'' and had many plot holes.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.tvguide.com/movies/dead-space/review/2000034307/|title=Dead Space}}</ref> While ''[[Gorezone]]'' liked the technical aspects of the monster effect, it preferred the original ''Forbidden World'' to this remake. It also stated that the monster seemed more of a mutant dinosaur than mutated human.<ref>''Gorezone'' 118</ref> [[IGN]] found the movie to be a typical Corman movie, but that the movie was notable for Bryan Cranston in one of his earliest roles.<ref name="ign1">{{Cite web|url=https://www.ign.com/articles/2010/09/01/cormans-terrifying-dead-space|title=Corman's Terrifying Dead Space|date=September 2010}}</ref>

==Home release==
In 2010, [[Shout! Factory]] released the film on DVD, packaged as a double feature with ''[[The Terror Within]]'' as part of the ''Roger Corman's Cult Classics'' collection.<ref>{{cite web|title=Shout! Factory website|url=http://www.shoutfactory.com/browse/318/roger_cormans_cult_classics.aspx|publisher=Shout! Factory|access-date=6 October 2010|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100411074816/http://www.shoutfactory.com/browse/318/roger_cormans_cult_classics.aspx|archive-date=11 April 2010}}</ref> The film is in [[Fullscreen (aspect ratio)|fullscreen]] aspect ratio. IGN called the transfer ''"[...] incredibly faded and murky, with dust and dirt present throughout, and even some annoying digital artifacting."''<ref name="ign2">{{cite web |last1=Shaffer |first1=R.L. |title=The Terror Within/Dead Space DVD Review |url=https://www.ign.com/articles/2010/11/04/the-terror-withindead-space-dvd-review |website=[[IGN]] |publisher=[[Ziff Davis]] |access-date=30 January 2023 |date=4 November 2010}}</ref>

As of January 2022, the movie is available to stream for free on many sites, including [[Tubi]], [[Plex (Google)|Plex]] and the Shout streaming app <ref>{{Cite web |date=2022-11-20 |title=Dead Space 1991 Movie Review {{!}} Wiki |url=https://glintvalley.com/dead-space-1991-movie-review-wiki/ |access-date=2022-11-19 |language=en-US}}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
* {{IMDb title|id=0101675|title=Dead Space}}
* {{AllRovi movie|12725|Dead Space}}
* {{Rotten Tomatoes|dead_space|Dead Space}}

[[Category:1991 films]]
[[Category:1991 independent films]]
[[Category:1990s American films]]
[[Category:1990s English-language films]]
[[Category:1990s monster movies]]
[[Category:1990s science fiction action films]]
[[Category:1990s science fiction horror films]]
[[Category:American independent films]]
[[Category:American monster movies]]
[[Category:American robot films]]
[[Category:American science fiction action films]]
[[Category:American science fiction horror films]]
[[Category:American space adventure films]]
[[Category:Films directed by Fred Gallo]]
[[Category:Films set on fictional planets]]
[[Category:Remakes of American films]]

Elaine Lee

2023-07-17T21:27:40Z

Die-yng: /* Career */ The sentence in its original form made no sense and some of the claims made in it, aren't even supported in the presented source. Instead of deleting the sentence entirely, I clarified it and removed some of the hyperbolic claims,

{{short description|American writer and actor}}
{{About|the American actor and playwright|other people with the same name}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=June 2016}}

{{Infobox person
| name = Elaine Lee
| occupation = {{flatlist|
*Actor
*playwright
*producer
*comic writer
|}}
| notable_works = [[Starstruck (play)|Starstruck]]
| children = [[Brennan Lee Mulligan]]
| website = {{URL|elainelee.us/|}}
}}

'''Elaine Lee''' is an American actress, playwright, producer, and writer, who specializes in [[Comic book|graphic novel]]s. She has also received recognition and awards for her work as a creator and producer of audio books and dramas.

Her comics have been illustrated by artists including [[Michael Wm. Kaluta]], [[Charles Vess]], [[James Sherman (comic book artist)|James Sherman]], [[Steve Leialoha]], [[Linda Medley]] and [[John Ridgway (comics)|John Ridgway]].

Her graphic novel ''Starstruck: The Luckless, the Abandoned and Forsaked'' was nominated for a [[Kirby Award|Jack Kirby Award]] as The Best Graphic Album of 1985.<ref>[http://www.hahnlibrary.net/comics/awards/kirby85.php "Jack Kirby Award nominations", 1985]</ref>

She is the mother of [[Brennan Lee Mulligan]], who is the author of ''[[Strong Female Protagonist]]'' and creator of ''[[Dimension 20]]''.

==Career==
In 1976, she moved to New York City and found acting work.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.broadwayplaypub.com/play-authors/elaine-lee/|title = Elaine Lee | Broadway Play Publishing Inc}}</ref> In 1979, she landed the role of Mildred Trumble on NBC-TV’s ''[[The Doctors (soap opera)|The Doctors]]''.<ref>[http://soapcentral.com/soapcentral/awards/emmys/1979.php?&printonly=yes 1980 "Daytime Emmy nominations", SoapCentral.com]</ref>

She was a founding member and artistic director of Manhattan-based theatre company, Wild Hair Productions.<ref>Elaine Lee, Susan Norfleet, and Dale Place (March 1985). ''Starstruck'' (A Space Opera). Broadway Play Publishing, Inc. {{ISBN|0-88145-023-5}}</ref>

Wild Hair began its run performing three plays written and performed by Elaine Lee and her sister, comedian Susan Norfleet Lee: ''Brief Lives'', ''The Contamination of the Kokomo Lounge'', and ''[[Starstruck (play)|Starstruck]]''.<ref>Susan Adamo. "Starstruck: Artist Mike Kaluta's Designs For This SF-Comedy Satire". Starlog Magazine #41, December 1980, p.24.</ref> ''Starstruck'', a [[science-fiction]] spoof with a largely female cast, was performed [[Off-Broadway]] at the N.E.T.W.O.R.K. Theater, from April 16 – May 10, 1980. Lee portrayed Captain Galatia 9, and Susan Norfleet Lee played Brucilla the Muscle. In 1983, Lee directed a revised production with a new cast that was performed at the Park Royal Theater, from April 16 – May 8, 1983.<ref>Elaine Lee, Susan Norfleet, and Dale Place (March 1985).</ref>

Lee's ''Starstruck'' play grew into a comic-book series that has been adapted into audioplays and seen multiple spin-offs and sequels. It was nominated for the Jack Kirby award for Best Graphic Novel in 1985.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.tcj.com/starstruck-an-interview-with-elaine-lee-and-michael-kaluta-part-1/|title = Starstruck: An Interview with Elaine Lee and Michael Kaluta (Part 1) | the Comics Journal|date = May 9, 2012}}</ref> The British Science Fiction Society magazine ''Vector'' listed it as a "groundbreaking work": "The original volume, 73 pages long, covers three decades of stories across the universe, and the non-linear approach has seen some critics today comparing it to later works such as ''[[Lost (2004 TV series)|Lost]]'' and ''[[Watchmen]]''. Even though it never gained significant attention during its original release, Starstruck predates the latter in the use of non-linear graphic storytelling, use of supplement texts for story expansion, overlapping dialogue and unreliable storytelling. <ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.comicbookgrrrl.com/2015/01/02/vector-sequentials-1-women-and-sf-comics/#.VKb-q1trBK8.twitter |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150112112105/http://www.comicbookgrrrl.com/2015/01/02/vector-sequentials-1-women-and-sf-comics/ |archive-date=January 12, 2015 |title=Vector: Sequentials #1 - Women and SF Comics {{!}} comicbookGRRRL}}</ref>

Lee is a writer and co-producer for The AudioComics Company, which adapts comics and other original works into full-cast dramatizations with scores and sound effects.<ref>"[https://web.archive.org/web/20120717081927/http://audiocomicscompany.com/?page_id=15 About AudioComics Company]", ACC.</ref> She adapted ''[[Locke and Key]]'', based on IDW's graphic novel series by Joe Hill and Gabriel Rodriguez. It was a finalist for an Audie Award.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160210005222/en/24-Audible-Productions-Named-Finalists-2016-Audie|title=24 Audible Productions Named as Finalists for 2016 Audie Awards®|date=February 10, 2016}}</ref> She also produced ''The Starling Project'', which received Audie Award nominations for Original Work and Best Audio Drama, and an Earphones Award.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.richlandlibrary.com/inform/2016-audie-award-finalists-announced |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160305150218/http://www.richlandlibrary.com/inform/2016-audie-award-finalists-announced |archive-date=March 5, 2016 |title=2016 Audie Award Finalists Announced {{!}} Richland Library}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.voxpertise.com/edu/id8.html|title = Testimonials & Awards}}</ref>

She co-adapted the Image Comic series ''The Perhapanauts'' which won a Silver Ogle Award,<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.marktimeawards.org/winners/ogle_winners.html |title = Charles Ogle Award Winnwers}}</ref> and also adapted and co-produced her "[[Honey West]]: Murder on Mars" ([[Moonstone Books]]) comics as an audioplay.<ref>"[http://www.sneakpeek.ca/2011/10/another-taste-of-honey-west.html Another Taste Of 'Honey West', SneakPeek.ca, October 3, 2011]</ref>

In 2011, Lee was chosen as an Artist in Residence at the [[National Audio Theatre Festival]] workshop. The NATF commissioned her play "TransMars Tango" for a live performance,<ref>"[http://www.regonline.com/builder/site/Default.aspx?EventID=938585 2011's Expert Guest Performer-Instructors:", The National Audio Theatre Festivals, June 19–25, 2011]</ref> starring [[Philip Proctor]] of [[The Firesign Theatre]], and directed by Brian Price.<ref>"[http://www.audiobookdj.com/the-echo-of-one-hand-clapping/2011/9/11/thinking-big.html The Echo of One Hand Clapping – Notes on Audio Publishing and Production", by Brian Price, September 11, 2011]</ref>

In comics, Lee has written a wide variety of works for Marvel, DC, Dark Horse and other publishers, including ''Indiana Jones and the Spear of Destiny'', ''Prince Valiant'', ''Ragman'' and ''[[Vamps (comics)|Vamps]]''. Lee worked as a colorist as well, most notably on several issues of ''[[The New Mutants]]'' and ''[[The Shadow]]'' for Marvel Comics and Dark Horse Comics and the first two issues of ''Starstruck''. She also did color art and supervised art direction, did design work on her various ''Starstruck'' projects, such as the ''Starstruck Deluxe Edition'', and for works on which she served as co-producer at AudioComics. She also served as Art Director for Stadium Entertainment.<ref>Tim O'Shea. "[http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2009/08/talking-comics-with-tim-elaine-lee/ Talking Comics with Tim: Elaine Lee", Robot 6, August 31, 2009.]</ref>

==Bibliography==
{{Main|Starstruck (comics)}}
* ''[[Starstruck (play)|Starstruck: The Audioplay]]'' a revised adaption of the original stage play. (2010)<ref>Lance Roger Axt. "[http://audiocomics.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/the-hills-are-alive-with-the-sounds-of-starstruck/ AudioComics: The Hills Are Alive With The Sound Of Starstruck] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110812002736/http://audiocomics.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/the-hills-are-alive-with-the-sounds-of-starstruck/ |date=August 12, 2011 }}". AudioComics Company press release, August 25, 2009.</ref>
* ''Starstruck: Running Scared'', short play, created for a cast reading at [[I-CON]] 2011.<ref>"[http://audiocomics.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/the-starstruck-i-con-talent-search-is-on/ The Starstruck I-CON Talent Search is ON!", The AudioComics Company, March 17, 2011] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160317063210/https://audiocomics.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/the-starstruck-i-con-talent-search-is-on/ |date=March 17, 2016 }}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
* {{IMDb name|2660199}}
* [http://starstruckcomics.com/ Official ''Starstruck'' site]
* {{official|https://elaineleeonline.com}}

{{hmcontribs}}

{{authority control}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Lee, Elaine}}
[[Category:American comics writers]]
[[Category:Female comics writers]]
[[Category:Place of birth missing (living people)]]
[[Category:Year of birth missing (living people)]]
[[Category:American graphic novelists]]
[[Category:American stage actresses]]
[[Category:Comics colorists]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:American women dramatists and playwrights]]
[[Category:21st-century American novelists]]
[[Category:American women novelists]]
[[Category:Marvel Comics people]]
[[Category:American female comics artists]]
[[Category:21st-century American actresses]]

St. Vincent (film)

2022-12-27T05:02:29Z

Die-yng:

{{short description|2014 film}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=October 2014}}
{{Infobox film
| name = St. Vincent
| image = St Vincent poster.jpg
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = [[Theodore Melfi]]
| producer = {{Plain list |
*[[Fred Roos]]
*[[Jenno Topping]]
*[[Peter Chernin]]
*Theodore Melfi
}}
| writer = Theodore Melfi
| starring = 
{{Plainlist|
* [[Bill Murray]]
* [[Melissa McCarthy]]
* [[Jaeden Lieberher]]
* [[Naomi Watts]]
* [[Chris O'Dowd]]
* [[Terrence Howard]]
}}
| music = [[Theodore Shapiro]]
| cinematography = [[John Lindley (cinematographer)|John Lindley]]
| editing = {{Plain list|
*[[Sarah Flack]]
*[[Peter Teschner]]
}}
| studio = {{Plain list|
*[[Chernin Entertainment]]
*Crescendo Productions
}}
| distributor = [[The Weinstein Company]]
| released = {{Film date|2014|09|05|[[2014 Toronto International Film Festival|TIFF]]|2014|10|24|United States}}
| runtime = 102 minutes<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.bbfc.co.uk/release/st-vincent-q29sbgvjdglvbjpwwc0znze2otm|title=''ST. VINCENT'' (12A)|work=[[British Board of Film Classification]]|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref>
| country = United States
| language = English
| budget = $13 million<ref>{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2012/11/weinstein-co-lands-bill-murrays-next-film-st-vincent-de-van-nuys-374663|last=Fleming|first=Mike|title=Weinstein Co. Lands Bill Murray's Next Film, 'St. Vincent De Van Nuys'|work=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|date=November 19, 2012|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref>
| gross = $54.8 million<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=main&id=stvincent.htm|title=St. Vincent (2014)|website=Box Office Mojo|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref>
}}

'''''St. Vincent''''' is a 2014 American [[comedy-drama]] film written, directed, and co-produced by [[Theodore Melfi]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.screenwritersutopia.com/article/d2166ca8|last=Wehner|first=Christopher|title="Happy Delusion:" An Interview with Theodore Melfi, Writer/Director of ST. VINCENT|date=October 9, 2014|work=Screenreader's Utopia|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref> The film stars [[Bill Murray]] as the title character and features [[Melissa McCarthy]], [[Jaeden Lieberher]], [[Naomi Watts]], [[Chris O'Dowd]], and [[Terrence Howard]].

The film had its [[Film premiere|premiere]] at the [[2014 Toronto International Film Festival]] where it was voted second runner-up for the [[Toronto International Film Festival People's Choice Award|People's Choice Award]].<ref>{{cite web|url=https://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/09/14/the-imitation-game-wins-tiff-peoples-choice-award|last=Chai|first=Barbara|title='The Imitation Game' Wins TIFF People's Choice Award|work=WSJ|date=September 17, 2014|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref> It received a limited theatrical release on October 10, 2014, and expanded to a wide release on October 24.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.thewrap.com/st-vincent-bill-murray-melissa-mccarthy-comedy-gets-release-date/|last=Cunningham|first=Todd|title=Bill Murray-Melissa McCarthy Comedy 'St. Vincent' Gets Release Date|work=TheWrap|date=April 3, 2014|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref> The same day, it was released on [[Netflix]] in [[France]].<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2014/digital/news/netflix-france-to-debut-st-vincent-starring-bill-murray-day-and-date-with-u-s-theatrical-release-1201338387/|last=Spangler|first=Todd|title=Netflix France to Debut 'St. Vincent' Starring Bill Murray Day-and-Date with U.S. Theatrical Release|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=October 24, 2014}}</ref> The film was a moderate commercial success, grossing $54.8 million against its $13.5 million budget, and received positive reviews from critics.

==Plot==
Vincent MacKenna is a retired, grumpy, [[Alcoholism|alcoholic]] [[Vietnam War]] veteran living in [[Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn|Sheepshead Bay]], who [[Chain smoking|smokes]] and [[Gambling|gambles]] regularly. His wife, Sandy, has [[Alzheimer's disease|Alzheimer's]] and no longer recognizes him, but he poses as a doctor to visit her and does her laundry. Vincent's only close friends are his cat Felix and a pregnant [[Citizenship of Russia|Russian]] [[sex worker]] named Daka. Despite his aggression toward strangers, Vincent has acquaintances who admire and care about him.

Vincent's 30-year-old [[Chrysler LeBaron]] gets hit by a branch felled by his new neighbors' moving van. Maggie Bronstein, a [[radiology]] tech in the midst of an acrimonious divorce, and her son Oliver, meet Vincent, who demands payment for the injury. Maggie does her best to provide for Oliver, who is ostracized and bullied at his [[Catholic school]], but is a knowledgeable, friendly boy, warmly welcomed by his new teacher. On his first day at his school, Oliver's phone, wallet, and house keys are stolen by his classmate Robert. Oliver asks Vincent if he can stay at his home until his mother comes home from work. Vincent offers to continue "babysitting" for a fee.

Vincent picks up Oliver daily after school because Maggie often has [[Shift work|late shifts]]. Vincent's ideas of after-school activities involve visits to racetracks and bars. The mismatched pair begin to help each other mature. Vincent teaches Oliver how to defend himself from bullies, resulting in Oliver breaking the nose of a bully who later apologizes and gives back what he stole. Oliver befriends the boy, who introduces himself as Robert. Vincent and Oliver win a high-odds bet on the horses, enabling Vincent to pay off some of his debts. After staff in Sandy's nursing home have told him he is behind on fees and Sandy will be moved, Vincent steals money from Oliver's bank account when his own accounts are overdrawn, and takes it to the racetrack. He gambles this money away hoping for a big win.

Vincent is confronted in his home by [[loan shark]]s Zucko and Antwan who attempt to take Sandy's jewelry. Vincent suddenly falls to the ground, and Zucko and Antwan leave him on the floor. Oliver finds him and calls emergency services. Vincent is hospitalized, told he has had a stroke, and has to undergo physical therapy. Oliver, Maggie, and Daka help Vincent recover, but his language remains stilted.

Oliver's father, a lawyer, finds out about Vincent and uses the information on gambling, introducing Oliver to a prostitute, etc. to get [[joint custody]] with Maggie. Having been unaware of Vincent’s activities, Maggie tells Vincent that he can no longer see Oliver.

Vincent becomes [[Depression (mood)|depressed]] after finding out that Sandy died while he was hospitalized. He is given a box containing her few belongings, and her ashes.

For his "[[Saint]]s Among Us" [[Schoolwork|school project]], Oliver asks around the neighborhood about Vincent's past. Later, he nominates Vincent at the school's assembly, publicly declaring him “St. Vincent of Sheepshead Bay” and presenting him with a medal. Oliver's rationale comes from his teacher's definition of sainthood as a person showing 'commitment and dedication' and some sacrifice. Vincent fits this in terms of his wife; he also saved two fellow soldiers during the Vietnam War. The rest seems debatable, as gambling and theft don't seem the best course of action to raise money for nursing home fees. However, the school audience is impressed by Oliver's speech and applaud Vincent, who has been tricked into attending the event by Daka.

Some time later, Daka gives birth to a baby girl and she, along with Maggie, Oliver and Robert, go to Vincent's house, where they eat and happily talk.

==Cast==
*[[Bill Murray]] as Vincent MacKenna, Maggie and Oliver's neighbor.
*[[Jaeden Martell]] (credited as Jaeden Lieberher) as Oliver Bronstein, Maggie's son.
*[[Melissa McCarthy]] as Maggie Bronstein, Oliver's mother.
*[[Naomi Watts]] as Daka Parimova, a pregnant Russian sex worker and Vincent's friend later 2nd wife.
*[[Chris O'Dowd]] as Brother Geraghty, Oliver's teacher, an Irish priest.
*[[Terrence Howard]] as Zucko, Vincent's loan shark.
*Dario Barosso as Robert Ocinski, Oliver's classmate who bullies him and later becomes his friend.
*Donna Mitchell as Sandy MacKenna, Vincent's wife who has Alzheimer's disease.
*[[Kimberly Quinn (actress)|Kimberly Quinn]] as Ana, a nurse at Sandy's nursing home.
*[[Scott Adsit]] as David Bronstein, Maggie's ex-husband and Oliver's father.
*[[Ann Dowd]] as Shirley, Sandy's nursing home director.
*[[Ron McLarty]] as Principal O'Brien, Oliver's school principal.
*[[Nate Corddry]] as Terry, a bank clerk.
*[[Lenny Venito]] as Coach Mitchell, Oliver's P.E. teacher.
*Ray Iannicelli as Roger, a bartender
*Maria Elena Ramirez as Amelda, a Latina nanny
*Emma Fisher as Bridgette

==Production==
The screenplay, originally titled ''St. Vincent de Van Nuys'', was written in 2011 by Melfi, and was included on the [[Black List (survey)|Hollywood Black List]] (the best unproduced scripts) of 2011.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-blog/8953965/The-Hollywood-Black-Lists-best-unproduced-scripts-of-2011-can-we-find-a-common-theme.html|last=Waters|first=Florence|title=The Hollywood Black List's best unproduced scripts of 2011: can we find a common theme?|date=December 13, 2011|work=Telegraph|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2011/12/the-black-list-2011-screenplay-roster-204025|last=Finke|first=Nikki|title=The Black List 2011: Screenplay Roster|date=December 12, 2011|work=Deadline Hollywood|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref>

[[Jack Nicholson]] was rumored to star in the film, but Murray signed on in July 2012.<ref>{{cite news|title=Bill Murray Joins St. Vincent de Van Nuys|url=https://movieweb.com/bill-murray-joins-st-vincent-de-van-nuys/|accessdate=March 16, 2021|website=movieweb.com|date=July 30, 2012}}</ref> On March 11, 2013, [[Melissa McCarthy]] was offered the lead female part and joined the cast.<ref name=Melissa>{{cite news|title=Melissa McCarthy May Join The Congregation Of 'St. Vincent De Van Nuys' With Bill Murray|url=http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/melissa-mccarthy-may-join-the-congregation-of-st-vincent-de-van-nuys-with-bill-murray-201303111|accessdate=March 16, 2021|website=indiewire.com|date=March 11, 2013}}</ref> On March 22, [[Chris O'Dowd]] joined the cast as a Catholic priest.<ref>{{cite news|title=Chris O'Dowd in Talks for 'St. Vincent De Van Nuys' with Bill Murray|url=https://www.firstshowing.net/2013/chris-odowd-in-talks-for-st-vincent-de-van-nuys-with-bill-murray/|last=Pearson|first=Ben|accessdate=March 16, 2021|website=firstshowing.net|date=March 22, 2013}}</ref> [[Naomi Watts]] joined the cast on April 22 in the role of a Russian prostitute.<ref>{{cite news|last=Fleming|first=Mike|title=Naomi Watts To Join Bill Murray, Melissa McCarthy, Chris O'Dowd in 'St. Vincent De Van Nuys'|url=https://www.deadline.com/2013/04/naomi-watts-to-join-bill-murray-melissa-mccarthy-chris-odowd-in-st-vincent-de-van-nuys|accessdate=March 16, 2021|work=Deadline Hoollywood|date=April 22, 2013}}</ref> On July 19, [[Scott Adsit]] joined the cast to play McCarthy's character's ex-husband.<ref>{{cite news|title=Scott Adsit Cast as Melissa McCarthy's Ex-Husband in 'St. Vincent de Van Nuys'|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/scott-adsit-cast-as-melissa-589296|last=Siegel|first=Tatiana|accessdate=March 16, 2021|work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|date=July 19, 2013}}</ref>

===Filming===
[[Principal photography|Filming]] began the first week of July 2013, with scenes filmed in [[Brooklyn, New York]]<ref>{{cite news|title='St. Vincent De Van Nuys' begins filming in New York City|url=http://www.onlocationvacations.com/2013/07/05/st-vincent-de-van-nuys-begins-filming-in-new-york-city|accessdate=March 16, 2021|website=onlocationvacations.com|date=July 5, 2013}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title=Naomi Watts Rocks Fake Baby Bump on the Set of St. Vincent de Van Nuys|url=http://www.eonline.com/news/437811/naomi-watts-rocks-fake-baby-bump-on-the-set-of-st-vincent-de-van-nuys-see-the-pic|accessdate=March 16, 2021|website=eonline.com|date=July 10, 2013}}</ref> and at [[Belmont Park]] in [[Elmont, New York|Elmont, Long Island, New York]].<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.eonline.com/news/437811/naomi-watts-rocks-fake-baby-bump-on-the-set-of-st-vincent-de-van-nuys-see-the-pic|title=Boisterous Gives Connections Second Straight G1 Man o' War Win|website=Nyra.com|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref>

===Music===
On December 26, 2013, [[Theodore Shapiro (composer)|Theodore Shapiro]] was hired to score the film.<ref>{{cite news|title=Theodore Shapiro to Score 'St. Vincent'|url=http://filmmusicreporter.com/2013/12/26/theodore-shapiro-to-score-st-vincent/|accessdate=March 16, 2021|website=filmmusicreporter.com|date=December 26, 2013}}</ref> [[Sony Classical Records]] released the soundtrack album on October 27, 2014.<ref>{{cite news|title='St. Vincent' Score Album Details|url=http://filmmusicreporter.com/2014/09/22/st-vincent-score-album-details/|website=filmmusicreporter.com|date=September 22, 2014|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title='St. Vincent' Soundtrack Details|url=http://filmmusicreporter.com/2014/09/26/st-vincent-soundtrack-details/|website=filmmusicreporter.com|date=September 26, 2014|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref>

==Marketing==
The first official [[Trailer (promotion)|trailer]] for the film was released on July 1, 2014.<ref>{{cite news|last=McDaniel|first=Matt|title=Bill Murray Gets Fatherly in the First 'St. Vincent' Trailer|url=https://www.yahoo.com/movies/bill-murray-gets-fatherly-in-the-first-trailer-for-90476935302.html|accessdate=March 16, 2021|publisher=yahoo.com|date=July 1, 2014}}</ref>

==Release==
[[The Weinstein Company]] released the film on October 10, 2014,<ref>{{cite news|last=Cunningham|first=Todd|title=Bill Murray-Melissa McCarthy Comedy 'St. Vincent' Gets Release Date|url=https://www.thewrap.com/st-vincent-bill-murray-melissa-mccarthy-comedy-gets-release-date|newspaper=The Wrap|date=April 3, 2014|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref> in [[limited release|limited]] engagements, before making an expansion into [[wide release]] on October 24, 2014.

==Reception==
On [[Rotten Tomatoes]], the film holds an approval rating of 77% based on 193 reviews, with an average rating of 6.8/10. The consensus reads, "''St. Vincent'' offers the considerable pleasure of seeing Bill Murray back in funny form, but drifts into dangerously sentimental territory along the way."<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/st_vincent|title=St. Vincent|website=[[Rotten Tomatoes]]|publisher=[[Fandango Media]]|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref> On [[Metacritic]], the film has a [[weighted average]] score of 64 out of 100 based on 40 reviews, indicating "generally favorable reviews".<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/st-vincent|title=St. Vincent Reviews|work=[[Metacritic]]|publisher=[[CBS Interactive]]|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref> Audiences polled by [[CinemaScore]] gave the film an average grade of "A−" on an A+ to F scale.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2014/10/box-office-ouija-john-wick-st-vincent-859761/|last=Busch|first=Anita|title='Ouija' Says Yes To $19.8M, 'John Wick' Chases In $14.4M, 'St. Vincent,' $7.7M Blessing – Final B.O. Weekend|work=Deadline Hollywood|date=October 27, 2014|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref>

[[Richard Roeper]] gave the film a grade of "A", saying Murray's performance could "mean a [[Golden Globe Award|Golden Globe]]".<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.richardroeper.com/reviews/stvincent.aspx|title=St. Vincent - RichardRoeper.com|work=richardroeper.com}}</ref>

===Accolades===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|+ List of accolades received by ''St. Vincent''
!Year
!Award
!Category
!Recipients
!Result
|-
|rowspan=10|2014
|rowspan=2|[[2014 Toronto International Film Festival|Toronto International Film Festival]]
|People's Choice Award
|rowspan=3|[[Theodore Melfi]]
|{{nom}}
|-
|Masters Award
|{{no|3rd Place}}
|-
|[[Chicago International Film Festival]]
|Audience Choice Award
|{{nom}}
|-
|[[Heartland Film Festival]]
|Truly Moving Picture Award
|Theodore Melfi
|{{won}}
|-
|rowspan=3|Indiana Film Journalists Association Awards
|Best Supporting Actress
|[[Melissa McCarthy]]
|{{draw|Runner-Up}}
|-
|Best Picture
|Theodore Melfi
|{{nom}}
|-
|Best Director
|Theodore Melfi
|{{nom}}
|-
|[[Washington D.C. Area Film Critics Association Awards|Washington D.C. Film Critics Association]]
|Best Youth Performance
|[[Jaeden Lieberher]]
|{{nom}}
|-
|Las Vegas Film Critics Society Awards
|Youth in Film
|Jaeden Lieberher
|{{won}}
|-
|[[St. Louis Gateway Film Critics Association|St. Louis Film Critics Association Awards]]
|Best Comedy
|Theodore Melfi
|{{nom}}
|-
|rowspan=11|2015
|[[21st Screen Actors Guild Awards|Screen Actors Guild Awards]]
|[[Screen Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Performance by a Female Actor in a Supporting Role|Outstanding Supporting Actress]]
|[[Naomi Watts]]
|{{Nominated}}
|-
|Phoenix Film Critics Society Awards
|Best Performance by a Youth- Male
|Jaeden Lieberher
|{{won}}
|-
|rowspan=2|[[72nd Golden Globe Awards|Golden Globe Awards]]
|Best Motion Picture - Musical or Comedy
|Theodore Melfi
|{{Nominated}}
|-
|Best Actor - Musical or Comedy
|[[Bill Murray]]
|{{nom}}
|-
|rowspan=4|[[20th Critics' Choice Awards|Broadcast Film Critics' Association Awards]]
|Best Comedy
|Theodore Melfi
|{{nom}}
|-
|Best Actor in a Comedy
|Bill Murray
|{{nom}}
|-
|Best Actress in a Comedy
|Melissa McCarthy
|{{nom}}
|-
|Best Young Actor/Actress
|Jaeden Lieberher
|{{nom}}
|-
|[[Casting Society of America]]<ref>{{cite web|title=Casting Society Unveils Artios Film Nominees|url=https://deadline.com/2015/01/casting-society-artios-awards-film-nominees-full-list-1201342146/|work=Deadline Hollywood|accessdate=March 16, 2021|date=January 6, 2015}}</ref>
|Studio or Independent Comedy
|Laura Rosenthal
|{{nom}}
|-
|[[Make-Up Artists and Hair Stylists Guild|Make-Up Artists and Hair Stylists Guild Awards]]<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/guardians-galaxy-woods-lead-make-761732|last=Giardina|first=Carolyn|title='GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY,' 'INTO THE WOODS' LEAD MAKE-UP ARTISTS AND HAIR STYLISTS GUILD NOMINATIONS|website=Hollywood Reporter|publisher=Hollywood Reporter|date=January 8, 2015|accessdate=March 16, 2021}}</ref>
|Best Contemporary Hair Styling in Feature Length Motion Picture
|Suzy Mazzarese-Allison
|{{nom}}
|-
|2015 YouReviewers Movie Awards
|Breakthrough Actor
|Jaeden Lieberher
|{{nom}}
|}

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
*{{IMDb title|2170593}}

{{Theodore Melfi}}

[[Category:2014 films]]
[[Category:2014 comedy-drama films]]
[[Category:American comedy-drama films]]
[[Category:Films about grieving]]
[[Category:Films about prostitution in the United States]]
[[Category:Films about widowhood]]
[[Category:Films directed by Theodore Melfi]]
[[Category:Films produced by Peter Chernin]]
[[Category:Films set in Brooklyn]]
[[Category:Films set in New York City]]
[[Category:Films shot in New York (state)]]
[[Category:Films shot in New York City]]
[[Category:Gambling films]]
[[Category:Films scored by Theodore Shapiro]]
[[Category:Chernin Entertainment films]]
[[Category:Films about veterans]]
[[Category:Films about father–son relationships]]
[[Category:Films about mother–son relationships]]
[[Category:2010s English-language films]]
[[Category:2010s American films]]

Clark Ashton Smith

2022-11-05T05:28:35Z

Die-yng: /* Weird fiction: 1926–1935 */

{{Short description|American author (1893–1961)}}
{{other people|Clark Smith}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=September 2019}}
{{Infobox writer 
| name = Clark Ashton Smith
| image = Clark Ashton Smith 1912.jpg
| caption = Smith in 1912
| birth_date = {{birth date|1893|1|13}}
| birth_place = [[Placer County, California|Long Valley, California]], U.S.
| death_date = {{death date and age|1961|8|14|1893|1|13}}
| death_place = [[Pacific Grove, California]], U.S.
| occupation = Short story writer, poet
| genre = [[Horror fiction|Horror]], [[fantasy]], science fiction
| spouse = {{marriage|Carol Jones Dorman|1954}}
}}
'''Clark Ashton Smith''' (January 13, 1893 – August 14, 1961) was an American writer and artist. He achieved early local recognition, largely through the enthusiasm of [[George Sterling]], for traditional verse in the vein of [[Algernon Charles Swinburne|Swinburne]]. As a poet, Smith is grouped with the West Coast Romantics alongside [[Joaquin Miller]], Sterling, and [[Nora May French]] and remembered as "The Last of the Great Romantics" and "The Bard of Auburn". Smith's work was praised by his contemporaries. [[H. P. Lovecraft]] stated that "in sheer daemonic strangeness and fertility of conception, Clark Ashton Smith is perhaps unexcelled", and [[Ray Bradbury]] said that Smith "filled my mind with incredible worlds, impossibly beautiful cities, and still more fantastic creatures".<ref>[[Michael Dirda]], "[https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/entertainment/books/2007/02/18/a-journey-to-the-fantastic-realms-of-clark-ashton-smith-span-classbankheada-journey-to-the-fantastic-realms-of-clark-ashton-smithspan/86dc2cb0-1714-4594-88f6-0c7da8d467ed/ A Journey to the Fantastic Realms of Clark Ashton Smith"] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190421234419/https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/entertainment/books/2007/02/18/a-journey-to-the-fantastic-realms-of-clark-ashton-smith-span-classbankheada-journey-to-the-fantastic-realms-of-clark-ashton-smithspan/86dc2cb0-1714-4594-88f6-0c7da8d467ed/ |date=April 21, 2019 }}. ''[[The Washington Post]]'', February 18, 2007. Retrieved January 28, 2019.</ref>

Smith was one of "the big three of ''[[Weird Tales]]'', with [[Robert E. Howard]] and H. P. Lovecraft",<ref>{{cite web|last=Thomas|first=G. W.|title=A Reader's Guide to Sword & Sorcery S-V|url=http://www.gwthomas.org/ssrgsv.htm|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100528033423/http://www.gwthomas.org/ssrgsv.htm|url-status=dead|archive-date=May 28, 2010|access-date=September 27, 2012}}</ref> but some readers objected to his morbidness and violation of pulp traditions. The fantasy critic [[L. Sprague de Camp]] said of him that "nobody since [[Edgar Allan Poe|Poe]] has so loved a well-rotted corpse."<ref>de Camp 1976, p. 206</ref> Smith was a member of the Lovecraft circle and his literary friendship with Lovecraft lasted from 1922 until Lovecraft's death in 1937. His work is marked by an extraordinarily rich and ornate vocabulary, a cosmic perspective and a vein of sardonic and sometimes ribald humor.

Of his writing style, Smith stated: "My own conscious ideal has been to delude the reader into accepting an impossibility, or series of impossibilities, by means of a sort of verbal black magic, in the achievement of which I make use of prose-rhythm, metaphor, simile, tone-color, counter-point, and other stylistic resources, like a sort of incantation."<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.eldritchdark.com/articles/reviews/68/introduction-to-%27tales-of-zothique%27|title=Introduction to 'Tales of Zothique' by Will Murray|website=eldritchdark.com|access-date=March 15, 2016|archive-date=March 3, 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160303193753/http://www.eldritchdark.com/articles/reviews/68/introduction-to-'tales-of-zothique'|url-status=live}}</ref>

==Biography==

===Early life and education===

Smith was born January 13, 1893, in Long Valley, [[Placer County, California]], into a family of English and New England heritage. He spent most of his life in the small town of [[Auburn, California]], living in a cabin built by his parents, Fanny and Timeus Smith. Smith professed to hate the town's provincialism but rarely left it until he married late in life.

His formal education was limited: he suffered from psychological disorders including intense [[agoraphobia]], and although he was accepted to high school after attending eight years of grammar school, his parents decided it was better for him to be taught at home. An insatiable reader with an extraordinary [[eidetic memory]], Smith appeared to retain most or all of whatever he read. After leaving formal education, he embarked upon a self-directed course of literature, including ''[[Robinson Crusoe]]'', ''[[Gulliver's Travels]]'', the fairy tales of [[Hans Christian Andersen]] and [[Madame d'Aulnoy]], the ''[[Arabian Nights]]'' and the poems of [[Edgar Allan Poe]]. He read an unabridged dictionary word for word, studying not only the definitions of the words but also their [[etymology]].<ref>de Camp 1976, p. 197-98</ref>

The other main course in Smith's self-education was to read the complete [[Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition|11th edition]] of the ''[[Encyclopædia Britannica]]'' at least twice.<ref>Behrends 1990, p. 5</ref> Smith later taught himself French and Spanish to translate verse out of those languages, including works by [[Gérard de Nerval]], [[Paul Verlaine]], [[Amado Nervo]], [[Gustavo Adolfo Bécquer]] and all but 6 of [[Charles Baudelaire]]'s 157 poems in ''[[Les Fleurs du mal|The Flowers of Evil]]''.

===Early writing ===
[[File:Clark Ashton Smith WS 3010.jpg|thumb|right|Smith as depicted in ''[[Wonder Stories]]'' in 1930]]

His first literary efforts, at the age of 11, took the form of fairy tales and imitations of the Arabian Nights. Later, he wrote long adventure novels dealing with Oriental life. By 14 he had already written a short adventure novel called ''The Black Diamonds'' which was lost for years until published in 2002. Another juvenile novel was written in his teenaged years: ''The Sword of Zagan'' (unpublished until 2004). Like ''The Black Diamonds'', it uses a [[Middle Ages|medieval]], ''Arabian Nights''-like setting, and the ''Arabian Nights'', like the fairy tales of the [[Brothers Grimm]] and the works of [[Edgar Allan Poe]], are known to have strongly influenced Smith's early writing, as did [[William Thomas Beckford|William Beckford]]'s ''[[Vathek]]''.

At age 17, he sold several tales to ''[[The Black Cat (magazine)|The Black Cat]]'', a magazine which specialized in unusual tales. He also published some tales in the ''[[Overland Monthly]]'' in this brief foray into fiction which preceded his poetic career.

However, it was primarily poetry that motivated the young Smith and he confined his efforts to poetry for more than a decade. In his later youth, Smith made the acquaintance of the San Francisco poet [[George Sterling]] through a member of the local Auburn Monday Night Club, where he read several of his poems with considerable success. On a month-long visit to Sterling in [[Carmel, California]], Smith was introduced by Sterling to the poetry of [[Baudelaire]].<ref>de Camp 1976, p. 200</ref>

He became Sterling's [[protégé]] and Sterling helped him to publish his first volume of poems, ''The Star-Treader and Other Poems'', at the age of 19. Smith received international acclaim for the collection. ''The Star-Treader'' was received very favorably by American critics, one of whom named Smith "the [[John Keats|Keats]] of the Pacific". Smith briefly moved among the circle that included [[Ambrose Bierce]] and [[Jack London]], but his early fame soon faded away.{{citation needed|date=January 2021}}

===Health breakdown period===

A little later, Smith's health broke down and for eight years his literary production was intermittent, though he produced his best poetry during this period. A small volume, ''Odes and Sonnets'', was brought out in 1918. Smith came into contact with literary figures who would later form part of H.P. Lovecraft's circle of correspondents; Smith knew them far earlier than Lovecraft. These figures include poet [[Samuel Loveman]] and bookman George Kirk. It was Smith who in fact later introduced [[Donald Wandrei]] to Lovecraft. For this reason, it has been suggested that Lovecraft might as well be referred to as a member of a "Smith" circle as Smith was a member of a Lovecraft one.<ref>Schultz & Connors 2003, p. xix</ref>

In 1920 Smith composed a celebrated long poem in [[blank verse]], ''The Hashish Eater, or The Apocalypse of Evil'' which was published in ''[[Ebony and Crystal]]'' (1922).<ref>{{cite book|last=Smith |first=Clark Ashton |title=Ebony and Crystal: Poems in Verse and Prose |year=1922 |location=[[Auburn, California]]}}</ref> This was followed by a fan letter from [[H. P. Lovecraft]], which was the beginning of 15 years of friendship and correspondence. With studied playfulness, Smith and Lovecraft borrowed each other's coinages of place names and the names of strange gods for their stories, though so different is Smith's treatment of the Lovecraft theme that it has been dubbed the "Clark Ashton Smythos."<ref>Murray 1990</ref>

In 1925 Smith published ''Sandalwood'', which was partly funded by a gift of $50 from [[Donald Wandrei]]. He wrote little fiction in this period with the exception of some imaginative vignettes or [[prose poem]]s. Smith was poor for most of his life and often did hard manual jobs such as fruit picking and [[Logging|woodcutting]] to support himself and his parents. He was an able cook and made many kinds of wine. He also did well digging, typing and journalism, as well as contributing a column to ''The Auburn Journal'' and sometimes worked as its night editor.<ref>de Camp 1976, p. 203</ref>

One of Smith's artistic patrons and frequent correspondents was San Francisco businessman [[Albert M. Bender]].

===Prolific fiction-writing period===
At the beginning of the [[Great Depression|Depression]] in 1929, with his aged parents' health weakening, Smith resumed fiction writing and turned out more than a hundred short stories between 1929 and 1934, nearly all of which can be classed as weird horror or science fiction. Like Lovecraft, he drew upon the nightmares that had plagued him during youthful spells of sickness. [[Brian Stableford]] has written that the stories written during this brief phase of hectic productivity "constitute one of the most remarkable oeuvres in imaginative literature".<ref>Brian Stableford, "Clark Ashton Smith" in David Pringle (ed), ''St James Guide to Fantasy Writers'', Detroit MI: St James Press, 1996, pp.529–30</ref>

He published at his own expense a volume containing six of his best stories, ''The Double Shadow and Other Fantasies'', in an edition of 1000 copies printed by the ''Auburn Journal''. The theme of much of his work is egotism and its supernatural punishment; his weird fiction is generally macabre in subject matter, gloatingly preoccupied with images of death, decay and abnormality.

Most of Smith's weird fiction falls into four series set variously in [[Hyperborean cycle|Hyperborea]], [[Poseidonis]], [[Averoigne]] and [[Zothique]]. Hyperborea, which is a lost continent of the Miocene period, and Poseidonis, which is a remnant of Atlantis, are much the same, with a magical culture characterized by bizarreness, cruelty, death and postmortem horrors. Averoigne is Smith's version of pre-modern France, comparable to [[James Branch Cabell]]'s Poictesme. Zothique exists millions of years in the future. It is "the last continent of earth, when the sun is dim and tarnished". These tales have been compared to the [[Dying Earth]] sequence of [[Jack Vance]].

In 1933 Smith began corresponding with [[Robert E. Howard]], the Texan creator of [[Conan the Barbarian]]. From 1933 to 1936, Smith, Howard and Lovecraft were the leaders of the [[Weird Tales]] school of fiction and corresponded frequently, although they never met. The writer of oriental fantasies [[E. Hoffmann Price]] is the only man known to have met all three in the flesh.

Critic Steve Behrends has suggested that the frequent theme of 'loss' in Smith's fiction (many of his characters attempt to recapture a long-vanished youth, early love, or picturesque past) may reflect Smith's own feeling that his career had suffered a "fall from grace":
{{blockquote|Smith's late teens and early twenties had certainly been a heady period: he'd been taken under the wing of a personal idol, the poet George Sterling, and his first book of poetry had brought him comparisons to Keats and Shelley. This notoriety must surely have raised his standing in his small hometown. And yet the depression found Smith without a job or viable occupation, unable to eke out a living as a poet, with girlfriends berating him for his lack of ambition. And while his turn to writing fiction did put bread on the table, he found it a very distasteful business at times—he had once said to Sterling that writing prose was "a hateful task, for a poet, and [one which] wouldn't be necessary in any true civilisation." In short, it may be that Smith experienced that variety of "let-down" or loss peculiar to the child prodigies.<ref>Steve Behrends. "The Song of the Necromancer: 'Loss' in Clark Ashton Smith's Fiction". ''Studies in Weird Fiction'' 1, No 1 (Summer 1986), 3–12.</ref>}}

===Mid-late career: return to poetry and sculpture===

In September 1935, Smith's mother Fanny died. Smith spent the next two years nursing his father through his last illness. Timeus died in December 1937. Aged 44, Smith now virtually ceased writing fiction. He had been severely affected by several tragedies occurring in a short period of time: [[Robert E. Howard]]'s death by suicide (1936),<ref>{{Cite book |last=Vick |first=Todd B. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Ed4EEAAAQBAJ |title=Renegades and Rogues: The Life and Legacy of Robert E. Howard |publisher=University of Texas Press |year=2021 |isbn=978-1-4773-2195-9 |location=Austin |pages=130–137 |language=en |doi=10.7560/321959 |oclc=1159658615 |s2cid=241275357}}</ref> Lovecraft's death from cancer (1937)<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Faig |first=Kenneth W. |date=2012 |title=Lovecraft’s 1937 Diary |journal=Lovecraft Annual |issue=6 |pages=153 |issn=1935-6102 |jstor=26868456}}</ref> and the deaths of his parents, which left him exhausted. As a result, he withdrew from the scene, marking the end of ''Weird Tales''' [[Golden Age]]. He began sculpting and resumed the writing of poetry. However, Smith was visited by many writers at his cabin, including [[Fritz Leiber]], [[Rah Hoffman]], [[Francis T. Laney]] and others.

In 1942, three years after [[August Derleth]] founded [[Arkham House]] for the purpose of preserving the work of H.P. Lovecraft, Derleth published the first of several major collections of Smith's fiction, ''Out of Space and Time'' (1942). This was followed by ''Lost Worlds'' (1944). The books sold slowly, went out of print and became costly rarities. Derleth published five more volumes of Smith's prose and two of his verse, and at his death in 1971 had a large volume of Smith's poems in press.

===Later life, marriage and death===

In 1953, Smith suffered a coronary attack. Aged 61, he married Carol(yn) Jones Dorman on November 10, 1954. Dorman had much experience in Hollywood and radio public relations. After honeymooning at the Smith cabin, they moved to [[Pacific Grove, California]], where he set up a household including her three children from a previous marriage. For several years he alternated between the house on Indian Ridge and their house in Pacific Grove. Smith having sold most of his father's tract, in 1957 the old house burned – the Smiths believed by arson, others said by accident.

Smith now reluctantly did gardening for other residents at Pacific Grove, and grew a goatee. He spent much time shopping and walking near the seafront but despite Derleth's badgering, resisted the writing of more fiction.<ref>Haefele 2010, p.170</ref> In 1961 he suffered a series of strokes and in August 1961 he quietly died in his sleep, aged 68. After Smith's death, Carol remarried (becoming Carolyn Wakefield) and subsequently died of cancer.

The poet's ashes were buried beside, or beneath, a boulder to the immediate west of where his childhood home (destroyed by fire in 1957) stood; some were also scattered in a stand of blue oaks near the boulder. There was no marker. Plaques recognizing Smith have been erected at the Auburn Placer County Library in 1985 and in Bicentennial Park in Auburn in 2003.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://alangullette.com/lit/smith/sorcerer.htm|title=Clark Ashton Smith: The Sorcerer of Auburn|website=alangullette.com|access-date=June 2, 2018|archive-date=September 26, 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170926021004/http://alangullette.com/lit/smith/sorcerer.htm|url-status=live}}</ref>

Bookseller Roy A. Squires was appointed Smith's "west coast executor", with [[Jack L. Chalker]] as his "east coast executor".<ref>Haefele 2010, p.172</ref> Squires published many letterpress editions of individual Smith poems.

Smith's literary estate is represented by his stepson, Prof William Dorman, director of CASiana Literary Enterprises. [[Arkham House]] owns the copyright to many Smith stories, though some are now in the public domain.

For 'posthumous collaborations' of Smith (stories completed by Lin Carter), see the entry on [[Lin Carter]].

==Artistic periods==

While Smith was always an artist who worked in several very different media, it is possible to identify three distinct periods in which one form of art had precedence over the others.

===Poetry: until 1925===
Smith published most of his volumes of poetry in this period, including the aforementioned ''The Star-Treader and Other Poems'', as well as ''Odes and Sonnets'' (1918), ''Ebony and Crystal'' (1922) and ''Sandalwood'' (1925). His [[long poem]] ''The Hashish-Eater; Or, the Apocalypse of Evil'' was written in 1920.

===Weird fiction: 1926–1935===

[[File:Strange tales 193210.jpg|thumb|"The Hunters from Beyond", one of Clark Ashton Smith's best-known stories, was first published in the October 1932 issue of ''[[Strange Tales (pulp magazine)|Strange Tales]]''.]]

Smith wrote most of his [[weird fiction]] and [[Cthulhu Mythos]] stories, inspired by [[H. P. Lovecraft]]. Creatures of his invention include [[Aforgomon]], [[Rlim-Shaikorth]], Mordiggian, [[Tsathoggua]], the wizard [[Eibon]], and various others. In an homage to his friend, Lovecraft referred in "The Whisperer in Darkness" and "The Battle That Ended the Century" (written in collaboration with R. H. Barlow) to an Atlantean high-priest, "Klarkash-Ton".

Smith's weird stories form several cycles, called after the lands in which they are set: [[Averoigne]], [[Hyperborean cycle|Hyperborea]], [[Mars in fiction|Mars]], [[Poseidonis]], [[Zothique (collection)|Zothique]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.blackgate.com/articles/zothique.htm |title=The Fantasy Cycles of Clark Ashton Smith PART III: Tales of Zothique |last=Harvey |first=Ryan |work=[[Black Gate (magazine)|Black Gate]] |date=April 9, 2008 |access-date=September 16, 2013 |archive-date=September 24, 2008 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080924094850/http://www.blackgate.com/articles/zothique.htm |url-status=live }}</ref> To some extent Smith was influenced in his vision of such lost worlds by the teachings of [[Theosophy (Blavatskian)|Theosophy]] and the writings of [[Helena Blavatsky]]. Stories set in Zothique belong to the [[Dying Earth subgenre]]. Amongst Smith's science fiction tales are stories set on [[Mars]] and the invented planet of [[Xiccarph]].

His short stories originally appeared in the magazines ''[[Weird Tales]]'', ''[[Strange Tales]]'', ''[[Astounding Stories]]'', ''[[Science fiction magazine|Stirring Science Stories]]'' and ''[[Wonder Stories]]''.

Clark Ashton Smith was the third member of the great triumvirate of ''Weird Tales'', with Lovecraft and [[Robert E. Howard]].

Many of Smith's stories were published in six hardcover volumes by [[August Derleth]] under his [[Arkham House]] imprint. For a full bibliography to 1978, see Sidney-Fryer, ''Emperor of Dreams'' (cited below). [[S.T. Joshi]] is working with other scholars to produce an updated bibliography of Smith's work.

A selection of Smith's best-known tales includes:
*"The Last Incantation" — ''Weird Tales'', June 1930 LW2
*"A Voyage to Sfanomoe" — ''Weird Tales'', August 1931 LW2
*"[[The Tale of Satampra Zeiros]]" — ''Weird Tales'' November 1931 LW2
*"The Door to Saturn" — ''Strange Tales'', January 1932 LW2
*"The Planet of the Dead" — ''Weird Tales'', March 1932 LW2
*"The Gorgon" — ''Weird Tales'', April 1932 LW2
*"The Letter from Mohaun Los" (under the title of "Flight into Super-Time") — ''Wonder Stories'', August 1932 LW1
*"[[The Empire of the Necromancers]]" — ''Weird Tales'', September 1932 LW1
*"The Hunters from Beyond" — ''Strange Tales'', October 1932 LW1
*"[[The Isle of the Torturers]]" — ''Weird Tales'', March 1933 LW1
*"The Light from Beyond" — ''Wonder Stories'', April 1933 LW1
*"The Beast of Averoigne" — ''Weird Tales'', May 1933 LW1
*"The Holiness of Azedarac" — ''Weird Tales'', November 1933 LW1
*"The Demon of the Flower" — ''Astounding Stories'', December 1933 LW2
*"The Death of Malygris" — ''Weird Tales'', April 1934 LW2
*"The Plutonium Drug" — ''Amazing Stories'', September 1934 LW2
*"The Seven Geases" — ''Weird Tales'', October 1934 LW2
*"[[Xeethra]]" — ''Weird Tales'', December 1934 LW1
*"The Flower-Women" — ''Weird Tales'', May 1935 LW2
*"The Treader of the Dust" — ''Weird Tales'', August 1935 LW1
*"[[Necromancy in Naat]]" — ''Weird Tales'', July 1936 LW1
*"The Maze of Maal Dweb" — ''Weird Tales'', October 1938 LW2
*"The Coming of the White Worm" — ''Stirring Science Stories'', April 1941 LW2

===Visual art: 1935–1961===

By this time his interest in writing fiction began to lessen and he turned to creating sculptures from soft rock such as [[soapstone]].<ref>Many examples are reproduced in {{cite book|first=Dennis |last=Rickard | title=The Fantastic Art of Clark Ashton Smith | publisher=The Mirage Press| year=1973|location=Baltimore}}</ref> Smith also made hundreds of fantastic paintings and drawings.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.eldritchdark.com/galleries/by-cas|title=Gallery of Art by Clark Ashton Smith|access-date=October 29, 2012|date=December 30, 2009|archive-date=January 5, 2013|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130105143109/http://www.eldritchdark.com/galleries/by-cas/|url-status=live}}</ref>

==Bibliography==
{{See also|Clark Ashton Smith bibliography}}
The authoritative bibliography on Smith's work is [[S. T. Joshi]], David E. Schultz and Scott Conners. ''Clark Ashton Smith: A Comprehensive Bibliography.'' NY: Hippocampus Press, 2020. An earlier bibliography focusing on his short fiction, ''The Tales Of Clark Ashton Smith'', was published by Thomas G L Cockcroft in New Zealand in 1951.

===Books published in Smith's lifetime===
[[File:Star Treader.jpg|thumb|First edition]]
[[File:Ebony and Crystal 1922.jpg|thumb|First edition]]
*1912: ''The Star-Treader and Other Poems''. San Francisco: A.M. Robertson, Nov 1912. 100 pages. 2000 copies. Some copies have a frontispiece photo by Bianca Conti; others lack it.
*1918: ''Odes and Sonnets''. San Francisco: The Book Club of California, June 1918. 28 pages. 300 copies.
*1922: ''Ebony and Crystal: Poems in Verse and Prose''. Auburn CA: The Auburn Journal Press, Oct 1925. 43 pages. Limited to 500 copies signed by Smith. Some copies are found with corrections in Smith's hand to typos in the text.
*1925: ''Sandalwood''. Auburn CA: The Auburn Journal Press, Oct 1925. Verse. 43 pages. Limited to 250 (i.e. 225) numbered copies signed by Smith. Some copies are found with corrections in Smith's hand to typos in the text.
*1933: ''The Double Shadow and Other Fantasies''. Auburn, CA: The Auburn Journal Press, 1933. Short stories. Limited to 1000 copies in grey paper wrappers.
*1937: ''Nero and Other Poems''. Lakeport CA: The Futile Press, May 1937. 24 pages. c.250 copies. The poems herein were revised by Smith from their first appearances in ''The Star-Treader and Other Poems.'' Some copies have laid in the three page essay "The Price of Poetry", on Smith's verse, by David Warren Ryder, which was printed to accompany the book. According to the official Smith bibliography,the volume was also issued with a broadside, "Outlanders" - a 1934 sonnet which made its first appearance in print here.<ref>S. T.Joshi,David E. Schultz and Scott Connors.''Clark Ashton Smith: A Comprehensive Bibliography'' NY:Hippocampus Press, 2020, p.23 and p. 239.</ref> Roy A. Squires purchased spare sheets of the volume from Groo Beck of Futile Press, sufficient to produce a 'second state' of 13 copies,which was specially bound by Kristina Etchison and published by bookdealer Terence McVicker. (This 2nd state not noted in the official bibliography.)
*1951: ''The Dark Chateau and Other Poems''. Sauk City, WI: Arkham House, Dec 1951. 63 pages. 563 copies.
*1958: ''Spells and Philtres''. Sauk City: Arkham House, March 1958. Verse. 54 pages. 519 copies.

===Books published posthumously===
*1962: ''The Hill of Dionysus – A Selection''. Pacific Grove, CA: Roy A. Squires and Clyde Beck. Verse. This volume was prepared while Smith was still living but he died before it could see print. It was published 'In memoriam'.
*1971: ''Selected Poems''. Sauk City, WI: Arkham House, Nov 1971. This volume was delivered by the author to Arkham House in December 1949 but remained unpublished until 1971.

===[[Night Shade Books]]===
* ''The Collected Fantasies of Clark Ashton Smith'' 5-volume work
*'' Miscellaneous Writings''. Originally announced as ''Tales of India and Irony'' (a collection of non-fantasy/science fiction/horror tales, planned to be available only to subscribers of above collection). Now commercially available.
*'' Red World of Polaris'' (complete tales of Captain Volmar)

===Hippocampus Press===
* ''The Complete Poetry and Translations of Clark Ashton Smith'' (3 vols)
* ''The Black Diamonds''. A juvenile Oriental fantasy.
* ''The Last Oblivion: Best Fantastic Poems of Clark Ashton Smith''
* ''The Sword of Zagan and Other Writings''. Juvenile Oriental fantasy.
* ''The Shadow of the Unattained: Letters of George Sterling and Clark Ashton Smith''
* ''The Freedom of Fantastic Things: Selected Criticism on Clark Ashton Smith''
* ''The Hashish-Eater''. (2008). Edited with notes etc. by Donald Sidney-Fryer. Introduction by Ron Hilger. Includes a CD audio recording of Sidney-Fryer reading "The Hashish-Eater" and (on a hidden track) a selection of other poems by Smith.
* ''The Averoigne Chronicles: The Complete Averoigne Stories of Clark Ashton Smith''
* ''Zothique: The Final Cycle by Clark Ashton Smith''

===[[Arkham House]]===
*''[[Out of Space and Time]]''
*''[[Lost Worlds (Smith collection)|Lost Worlds]]''
*''[[Genius Loci and Other Tales]]''
*''[[The Dark Chateau]]''
*''[[Spells and Philtres]]''
*''[[The Abominations of Yondo]]''
*''[[Tales of Science and Sorcery]]''
*''[[Poems in Prose (Smith)|Poems in Prose]]''
*''[[Other Dimensions]]'' (o.o.p.)
*''[[Selected Poems (C. A. Smith)|Selected Poems]]''
*''[[The Black Book of Clark Ashton Smith]]''
*''[[A Rendezvous in Averoigne]]''
*''[[Selected Letters of Clark Ashton Smith]]''

====''Spearman'' (reprinted from Arkham House)====
*''Lost Worlds'' hardcover 1971 {{ISBN|0-85435-111-6}}
*''Out of Space and Time'' 1971 {{ISBN|0-85435-101-9}}
*''Genius Loci'' hardcover 1971 {{ISBN|0-85435-381-X}}
*''Abominations of Yondo'' 1972 {{ISBN|0-85435-371-2}}

====''Panther'' (reprinted from Arkham House)====
*''Lost Worlds'' (published in 2 volumes, {{ISBN|0-586-03964-3}}, {{ISBN|0-586-04086-2}})
*''Genius Loci'' {{ISBN|0-586-03965-1}}
*''The Abominations of Yondo'' {{ISBN|0-586-03956-2}}
*''Other Dimensions'' (published in 2 volumes, {{ISBN|0-586-04350-0}}, {{ISBN|0-586-04351-9}})
*''Out of Space and Time'' (published in 2 volumes, {{ISBN|0-586-03966-X}}, {{ISBN|0-586-04110-9}})
*''Tales of Science and Sorcery'' {{ISBN|0-586-04352-7}}

===Ballantine Adult Fantasy series===
*''[[Zothique (collection)|Zothique]]'' 1970 {{ISBN|0-345-01938-5}}
*''[[Hyperborea (collection)|Hyperborea]]'' 1971 {{ISBN|0-345-02206-8}}
*''[[Xiccarph]]'' 1972 {{ISBN|0-345-02501-6}}
*''[[Poseidonis (collection)|Poseidonis]]'' 1973 {{ISBN|0-345-03353-1}}
*''Averoigne'' (reportedly compiled by series editor [[Lin Carter]], but never released)

===Wildside Press===
*''The Double Shadow''
*''The Maker of Gargoyles and Other Stories''
*''The White Sybil and Other Stories''

===Timescape Books===
*''The City of the Singing Flame'' 1981 {{ISBN|0-671-83415-0}}
*''The Last Incantation'' 1982 {{ISBN|0-671-83543-2}}
*''The Monster of the Prophecy'' 1983 {{ISBN|0-671-83544-0}}

===HIH Art Studios===
*''Shadows Seen and Unseen: Poetry from the Shadows''. San Jose, CA: Hih Art Studios, 2007. Edited by Raymond L. Johnson and Ardath W. Winterowd and signed by both editors. Limited to 540 copies. Hardcover in slipcase. Includes reproductions of poetry manuscripts by Smith, and color plates of several Smith paintings.

===[[Penguin Books]]===
*''The Dark Eidolon and Other Fantasies''. Ed, [[S. T. Joshi]]. 2014.

===Other===
* Smith, Clark Ashton. ''Planets and Dimensions: Collected Essays''. Edited by Charles K. Wolfe. Baltimore MD: Mirage Press, 1973.
*''[[Emperor of Dreams]]''. Ed, Stephen Jones. Gollancz, 2002. An omnibus edition in paperback of Smith's best tales.
*''In the Line of the Grotesque and Monstrous''. Introduction by D.S. Black. Berkeley: The [[Bancroft Library]], 2004. Prints the text of three letters by Smith to [[Samuel Loveman]]. 50 copies only printed, in burnt orange wrappers. Printed on the Bancroft library's 1856 Albion handpress.
* ''The Black Abbot of Puthuum''. Glendale, CA: The RAS Press, Oct 2007. Limited to 250 numbered copies.(This press was founded by Roy. A. Squires and is currently run by bookseller Terence McVicker).
* Roy A. Squires, bookman and letterpress printer, issued many limited edition pamphlets consisting of individual Smith poems and prose poems.
* David E. Schultz and S. T. Joshi (eds). ''The Shadow of the Unattained: The Letters of George Sterling and Clark Ashton Smith'' NY: Hippocampus Press, 2005.
* David E. Schultz and S. T. Joshi (eds). ''Dawnward Spire, Lonely Hill: The Letters of H. P. Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith.'' NY: Hippocampus Press, 2017.
* David E. Schultz and S.T. Joshi (eds). ''Eccentric, Impractical Devils: The Letters of August Derleth and Clark Ashton Smith.'' NY: Hippocampus Press, 2020.
* S.T. Joshi and David E. Schultz (eds). ''Born Under Saturn: The Letters of Samuel Loveman and Clark Ashton Smith'' NY: Hippocampus Press, 2021, an expanded edition of [[Samuel Loveman]]'s ''Out of the Immortal Night'' (2004)
* David E. Schultz and S. T. Joshi (eds). ''Eccentric, Impractical Devils: The Letters of August Derleth and Clark Ashton Smith'' NY: Hippocampus Press,

Scholars S.T. Joshi and David E. Schultz are preparing various additional volumes of Smith's letters to such of his individual correspondents as [[Donald Wandrei]] and [[Robert H. Barlow]].

==Media adaptations==

===Visual===
*"The Double Shadow" was filmed by Azathoth Productions, Newcastle, Australia, on Super 8 film in 1975, with a script by [[Leigh Blackmore]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://members.optusnet.com.au/lvxnox/pastprojects.html |title=Past Projects |last=Blackmore |first=Leigh |author-link=Leigh Blackmore |access-date=September 18, 2013 |quote=There is mention here of Azathoth productions, a filmmaking group within the [Horror Fantasy Society]. This group produced the unfinished short film "The Double Shadow" (based on the Clark Ashton Smith story)... |archive-date=October 4, 2013 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131004213351/http://members.optusnet.com.au/lvxnox/pastprojects.html |url-status=live }}</ref>
*"[[The Return of the Sorcerer]]" was adapted for an episode of the television series ''[[Night Gallery]]'', starring [[Vincent Price]] and [[Bill Bixby]].
*"The Seed from the Sepulcher", "The Vaults of Yoh Vombis" and "The Return of the Sorcerer" were adapted as ten-page comics by [[Richard Corben]], published in [[Den (comics)#Publication history|DenSaga]] 1, 2 and 3 respectively (Fantagor Press 1992–1993).
* "Mother of Toads" was adapted as segment one of the six-segment horror anthology film ''[[The Theatre Bizarre]]'' (2011).

===Audio===
* ''Clark Ashton Smith: Live from Auburn: The Elder Tapes''. In the late 1950s Smith recorded a number of his poems on the tape-recorder of his friend Robert B. Elder. Elder chose the 11 poems at random from Smith's books ''The Dark Chateau'' and "Spells and Philtres". (Elder had first met Smith when reporting on his 1954 wedding to the former Carol Dorman for ''The Auburn Courier'' and they became friends when Smith praised Elder's novel ''Whom the Gods Destroy''.) In 1995 Necronomicon Press released the audiocassette ''Clark Ashton Smith: Live from Auburn: The Elder Tapes'', which includes an introduction by Elder and then Smith reading his poems. The recording was produced by Wayne Haigh. The cassette was accompanied by a booklet featuring a c.1960 photo of Smith and reprints all 11 poems. [[Gahan Wilson]] provided the cover art for the cassette and booklet. The recording has not been released on CD.
* ''The Hashish-Eater and Other Poems.''. Nampa, Idaho Fedogan and Bremer, 2018. Running time 68 mins. Includes Donald Sidney-Fryer's readings of "The Hashish-Eater" and a selection of other Smith poems, identical to the selection on the CD which accompanied the 2008 Hippocampus Press volume "The Hashish-Eater"; here, however, an orchestral soundtrack by Graham Plowman has been added. Booklet notes by Ron Hilger.

==References==
===Citations===
{{Reflist}}

===Sources===
* {{cite book|last=De Camp|first=L. Sprague|author-link=L. Sprague de Camp|title=Literary Swordsmen and Sorcerers: the Makers of Heroic Fantasy|year=1976|publisher=Arkham House|isbn=0-87054-076-9|chapter=Sierran Shaman: Clark Ashton Smith}}
* Herron, Don. "Collecting Clark Ashton Smith". ''Firsts'' (October 2000).
* Joshi, S. T. (2008).  "Clark Ashton Smith: Beauty Is for the Few," chapter 2 in ''Emperors of Dreams: Some Notes on Weird Poetry''. Sydney: P'rea Press. {{ISBN|978-0-9804625-3-1}} (pbk) and {{ISBN|978-0-9804625-4-8}} (hbk).
* Murray, Will. "The Clark Ashton Smythos" in Price, Robert M. (ed). ''The Horror of it All: Encrusted gems from the Crypt of Cthulhu''. Mercer Island WA: Starmont House, 1990. {{ISBN|1-55742-122-6}}.

==Further reading==
* Behrends, Steve. ''Clark Ashton Smith''. Starmont Reader's Guide 49. Mercer Island, WA: Starmont House, 1990.
* Cockcroft, Thomas G.L. ''The Tales of Clark Ashton Smith: A Bibliography''. Lower Hutt, New Zealand: Cockcroft, Nov 1961 (500 copies). The first published bibliography on Smith; superseded by Donald Sidney-Fryer's ''Emperor of Dreams'' (1978) – see below.
* [[Connors, Scott]]. ''The Freedom of Fantastic Things: Selected Criticism on Clark Ashton Smith''. NY: Hippocampus Press, 2006.
* de Camp, L. Sprague. "Sierra Shaman: Clark Ashton Smith," in [[Literary Swordsmen and Sorcerers]]: The Makers of Heroic Fantasy. Sauk City,. WI: Arkham House, 1976, 211–12.
* Fait, Eleanor. "Auburn Artist-Poet Utilizes Native Rock in Sculptures.". ''Sacramento Union'' (Dec 21, 1941), 4C.
* Haefele, John D. "Far from Time: Clark Ashton Smith, August Derleth, and Arkham House." ''Weird Fiction Review'' No 1 (Fall 2010), 154–189.
* Hilger, Ronald. ''One Hundred Years of Klarkash-Ton''. Averon Press, 1996.
* ''Klarkash-Ton: The Journal of Smith Studies'' No 1 (June 1988), Cryptic Publications. Edited by Steve Behrends. This journal was continued under a new title but with the numbering continued from No 1, thus the first issue of ''The Dark Eidolon: The Journal of Smith Studies'', (Necronomicon Press) is numbered "2" (it appeared June 1989). There were only 3 issues in total. No 3 appeared in Dec 2002.
* ''[[Lost Worlds: The Journal of Clark Ashton Smith Studies]]'', Seele Brennt Publications. Edited by Smith's biographer [[Scott Connors]] and Ronald S. Hilger. Issued annually, five numbers 2003–2008.
* Morris, Harry O. (ed). ''Nyctalops'' magazine. Special Clark Ashton Smith issue, 96 pp. (1973)
* Schultz, David E. and Scott Connors (ed). ''Selected Letters of Clark Ashton Smith''. Sauk City, WI: Arkham House, 2003.
* Schultz, David E and S.T. Joshi. ''The Shadow of the Unattained: The Letters of George Sterling and Clark Ashton Smith''. NY: Hippocampus Press, 2005.
* Sidney-Fryer, Donald. ''Emperor of Dreams: A Clark Ashton Smith Bibliography''. West Kingston, RI: Donald M. Grant Publishers, 1978. A substantial work of scholarship but now over thirty years out of date. A quantity of more recent bibliographical information can be found at the Bibliography section of the Eldritch Dark site online (see External Links).
* Sidney-Fryer, Donald. ''The Last of the Great Romantic Poets''. Albuquerque NM: Silver Scarab Press, 1973.
* Sidney-Fryer, Donald. ''Clark Ashton Smith: The Sorcerer Departs''. West Hills, CA: Tsathoggua Press, Jan 1997. Dole: [[Silver Key Press]], 2007. An updated/revised version of Sidney-Fryer's essay in the Special CAS Issue of ''Nyctalops'' (see above under Morris). An uncredited extract from this work, as "A Biography of Clark Ashton Smith," may be found online at [https://www.baen.com/Chapters/9781597803601/9781597803601___3.htm]

==External links==
{{Sister project links |author=Clark Ashton Smith |commonscat=Clark Ashton Smith |n=no |q=no |v=no |wikt=no |b=no}}
{{Library resources box
|onlinebooks=yes
|by=yes
|about=no
|viaf= 86145857791723020473
|label=Clark Ashton Smith}}
* [http://www.eldritchdark.com The Eldritch Dark] – This website contains almost all of Clark Ashton Smith's written work, as well as a comprehensive selection of his art, biographies, [http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/bibliography/ a bibliography], a discussion board, readings, fiction tributes and more.
* [http://esperanto.us/indekso_CAS.html Eldonejo 'Mistera Sturno'] – A growing collection of authorized translations into [[Esperanto]] for free distribution as ebooks.
* [http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/spoken-word/38/chant-to-sirius Smith's poem "A Chant to Sirius"] read by [[Leigh Blackmore]]
* {{Gutenberg author | id=Smith,+Clark+Ashton | name=Clark Ashton Smith}}
* {{FadedPage|id=Smith, Clark Ashton|name=Clark Ashton Smith|author=yes}}
* {{Internet Archive author |sname=Clark Ashton Smith |sopt=t}}
* {{Librivox author |id=2984}}
* {{OL author}}
* {{isfdb name|id=Clark_Ashton_Smith|name=Clark Ashton Smith}}
* [http://www.blackcatpoems.com/s/clark_ashton_smith.html Clark Ashton Smith: Poems] – A collection of Clark Ashton Smith's early poetry.
* [https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/smith_clark_ashton Clark Ashton Smith] at the ''[[The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction|Encyclopedia of Science Fiction]]''
* [https://sf-encyclopedia.com/fe/smith_clark_ashton Clark Ashton Smith] at the ''[[The Encyclopedia of Fantasy|Encyclopedia of Fantasy]]''

{{Works of Clark Ashton Smith}}
{{Cthulhu Mythos}}
{{LaVeyan Satanism}}
{{Portal bar|Poetry|Biography}}
{{Authority control}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Smith, Clark Ashton}}
[[Category:Clark Ashton Smith| ]]
[[Category:1893 births]]
[[Category:1961 deaths]]
[[Category:20th-century American male writers]]
[[Category:20th-century American novelists]]
[[Category:American fantasy writers]]
[[Category:American horror writers]]
[[Category:American male novelists]]
[[Category:American male poets]]
[[Category:American male short story writers]]
[[Category:American people of English descent]]
[[Category:American science fiction writers]]
[[Category:American short story writers]]
[[Category:Cthulhu Mythos writers]]
[[Category:People from Auburn, California]]
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[[Category:People from Pacific Grove, California]]
[[Category:Pulp fiction writers]]
[[Category:Weird fiction writers]]
[[Category:Writers from California]]

Henry Kuttner

2022-11-05T05:25:55Z

Die-yng: /* The Cthulhu Mythos */ I changed the first sentence a bit, to make it clearer that Lovecraft was the originator of the Cthulhu Mythos, the previous version read as if Ashton Smith and Lovecraft were equals in regard to that.

{{short description|American author of science fiction, fantasy and horror fiction}}
{{Infobox writer 
| image = HenryKuttner39.jpg
| birth_name =
| birth_date = {{birth date|1915|4|7|mf=y}}
| birth_place = Los Angeles, California, United States
| death_date = {{death date and age|1958|2|3|1915|4|7|mf=y}}
| death_place = Los Angeles, California, United States
| occupation = Short story writer; novelist
| spouse = [[C. L. Moore]] (1940–1958)
| genre = [[Science fiction]], [[Fantasy fiction|fantasy]], [[Horror fiction|horror]]
}}

'''Henry Kuttner''' (April 7, 1915 – February 3, 1958) was an American author of science fiction, [[fantasy fiction|fantasy]] and [[horror fiction|horror]].

==Early life==
Henry Kuttner was born in Los Angeles, California in 1915. {{Proper name|Naphtaly}} Kuttner (1829–1903) and Amelia Bush (c. 1834–1911), the parents of his father, the bookseller Henry Kuttner (1863–1920), had come from [[Leszno]] in [[Prussia]] and lived in San Francisco since 1859; the parents of his mother, Annie Levy (1875–1954), were from Great Britain. Henry Kuttner's great-grandfather was the scholar [[Josua Heschel Kuttner]]. Kuttner grew up in relative poverty following the death of his father. As a young man he worked in his spare time for the literary agency of his uncle,<ref>According to [[Robert Bloch]] in his autobiography ''Once Around The Bloch''. Tor Books, (1995), p. 95.</ref> [[Laurence D'Orsay]] (in fact his first cousin by marriage), in Los Angeles before selling his first story, "The Graveyard Rats", to ''[[Weird Tales]]'' in early 1936. It was while working for the d'Orsay agency that Kuttner picked [[Leigh Brackett]]'s early manuscripts off the slush pile; it was under his tutelage that she sold her first story (to [[John W. Campbell]] at ''[[Astounding Stories]]'').<ref>Leigh Brackett "My Friend, Henry Kuttner." ''Etchings and Odysseys'' 4 (1984), p. 10.</ref>

==Kuttner and Moore==
Kuttner was known for his literary prose and worked in close collaboration with his wife, [[C. L. Moore]]. They met through their association with the "[[Lovecraft Circle]]", a group of writers and fans who corresponded with [[H. P. Lovecraft]].<ref>DeCamp, L. Sprague. ''Warlocks and Warriors'', p. 167 (NY, Berkley 1971).</ref> Their work together spanned the 1940s and 1950s and most of the work was credited to pseudonyms, mainly [[Lewis Padgett]] and Lawrence O'Donnell.

[[L. Sprague de Camp]], who knew Kuttner and Moore well, has stated that their collaboration was so seamless that, after a story was completed, it was often impossible for either Kuttner or Moore to recall who had written what. According to de Camp, it was typical for either partner to break off from a story in mid-paragraph or even mid-sentence, with the latest page of the manuscript still in the typewriter. The other spouse would routinely continue the story where the first had left off. They alternated in this manner as many times as necessary until the story was finished.

Among Kuttner's most popular work were the Gallegher stories, published under the Padgett name, about a man who invented high-tech solutions to client problems (assisted by his insufferably egomaniacal robot) when he was drunk, only to be completely unable to remember exactly what he had built or why after sobering up. These stories were later collected in ''[[Robots Have No Tails]]''. In her introduction to the 1973 Lancer Books edition, Moore stated that Kuttner wrote all the Gallegher stories himself.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?767085 |title=Title: Introduction (Robots Have No Tails) |website=www.isfdb.org |access-date=February 14, 2017}}</ref>

==Influence==
[[Marion Zimmer Bradley]] is among many authors who have cited Kuttner as an influence. Her novel ''The Bloody Sun'' is dedicated to him. [[Roger Zelazny]] has talked about the influence of ''The Dark World'' on his [[Amber (fictional realm)|Amber]] series.

Kuttner's friend [[Richard Matheson]] dedicated his 1954 novel ''[[I Am Legend (novel)|I Am Legend]]'' to Kuttner, with thanks for his help and encouragement. [[Ray Bradbury]] has said that Kuttner actually wrote the last 300 words of Bradbury's first horror story, "The Candle" (''Weird Tales'', November 1942). Bradbury has referred to Kuttner as a neglected master and a "pomegranate writer: popping with seeds—full of ideas".<ref>Ray Bradbury, "Introduction: Henry Kuttner: A Neglected Master" in ''The Best of Henry Kuttner'', Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1975, pp. vii–xii. "Pomegranate" is on p. vii; Shawn Ramsey, "Henry Kuttner's Cthulhu Mythos Fiction: An Overview", in ''The Horror of It All'', Robert M. Price, ed.</ref>

[[William S. Burroughs]]'s novel ''[[The Ticket That Exploded]]'' contains direct quotes from Kuttner regarding the "Happy Cloak" parasitic pleasure monster from the Venusian seas.

[[Mary Elizabeth Counselman]] believed that Kuttner's habit of writing under widely varied pseudonyms deprived him of the fame that should have been his. "I have often wondered why Kuttner chose to hide his talents behind so many false faces for no editorial reason... Admittedly, the fun is in pretending to be someone else. But Kuttner cheated himself of much fame that he richly deserved by hiding his light under a bushel of pen names that many fans did not know were his. [[Seabury Quinn]] and I both chided him about this."<ref>"Mary Elizabeth Counselman, "Hank and ''Weird Tales''". ''Etchings and Odysseys'' 4 (1984), p. 38</ref>

According to [[J. Vernon Shea]], August Derleth "kept promising to publish Hank's and Catherine's books under the [[Arkham House]] imprint, but kept postponing them."<ref>J. Vernon Shea, "Henry Kuttner: A Memoir", ''Etchings and Odysseys'' 4 (1984), p. 9</ref>

==The Cthulhu Mythos==
A friend of Lovecraft's as well as of [[Clark Ashton Smith]], Kuttner contributed several stories to the [[Cthulhu Mythos]] genre, based on the writing of the former and added to, among other authors, by the latter. Among these were "The Secret of Kralitz" (Weird Tales, October 1936), "The Eater of Souls" (''Weird Tales'', January 1937), "The Salem Horror" (''Weird Tales'', May 1937), "The Invaders" (''[[Strange Stories]]'', February 1939) and "The Hunt" (''Strange Stories'', June 1939).<ref>His Mythos related stories were published in ''The Book of Iod'' in 1995, edited by Robert M. Price.</ref><ref>{{Cite magazine |last=Ramsey |first=Shawn |date=November 1, 1987 |title=Henry Kuttner's Cthulhu Mythos Tales: An Overview |magazine=Crypt of Cthulhu |issue=51 |pages=21–23, 14 |issn=1077-8179}}</ref>

Kuttner added a few lesser-known deities to the Mythos, including [[Henry Kuttner deities#Iod|Iod]] ("The Secret of Kralitz"), [[Henry Kuttner deities#Vorvadoss|Vorvadoss]] ("The Eater of Souls"), and [[Henry Kuttner deities#Nyogtha|Nyogtha]] ("The Salem Horror"). Critic Shawn Ramsey suggests that Abigail Prinn, the villain of "The Salem Horror", might have been intended by Kuttner to be a descendant of [[Cthulhu Mythos biographies#Prinn, Ludvig|Ludvig Prinn]], author of ''[[De Vermis Mysteriis]]''—a book that appears in Kuttner's "The Invaders".<ref>Ramsey, p. 122.</ref>

''Etchings and Odysseys'' No 4 (1984), edited by Eric A. Carlson, John J. Koblas and R. Alain Everts, was a special Kuttner tribute issue featuring three reprinted tales by Kuttner - "It Walks By Night", "The Frog" and "The Invaders," together with various essays on Kuttner, and an interview with his wife and fellow writer [[C.L. Moore]].

''[[Crypt of Cthulhu]]'' 5, No 7 (whole number 41) (Lammas 1986), edited by [[Robert M. Price]], was a special Henry Kuttner issue collecting eight Cthulhu Mythos stories by Kuttner. (It did not include "Spawn of Dagon" or "The Invaders").

''[[The Book of Iod]]: Ten Tales of the Mythos'' is a collection of Kuttner's Cthulhu Mythos stories edited by Robert M. Price (Chaosium, 1995). (It also contains three additional tales concerning 'Iod's dread tome' by [[Robert Bloch]], [[Lin Carter]] and [[Robert M. Price]]). The Kuttner stories included are: "The Secret of Kralitz", "The Eater of Souls", "The Salem Horror", "The Jest of Droom-Avesta", "Spawn of Dagon", "The Invaders", "The Frog", "Hydra", "Bells of Horror" and "The Hunt" - thus, all the Mythos stories which had appeared in the special Kuttner issue of ''Crypt of Cthulhu'', plus "Spawn of Dagon" and "The Invaders". The story "The Black Kiss" (printed here, as often elsewhere, under the joint byline of Kuttner and Robert Bloch), was in fact written entirely by Bloch; Bloch co-credited Kuttner on the tale due to using the character Michael Leigh from "The Salem Horror".<ref>Robert M. Price, "Editorial Shards", ''Crypt of Cthulhu'' 41 (Lammas 1986), p. 2.</ref> "Beneath the Tombstone" by [[Robert M. Price]] and "Dead of Night" by [[Lin Carter]] round out the volume. Price points out in his introduction to the volume that "Henry Kuttner's own private corner of the Cthulhu Mythos was, then, apparently derived in about equal measure from Lovecraft, Bloch, [[Zoroastrianism]], and [[Theosophy (Blavatskian)|Theosophy]]."<ref>"The Khut-N'ha Mythos" by Robert M. Price (ed) in Henry Kuttner, ''The Book of Iod'' (Chaosium, 1995), vi.</ref>

==Later life==
Kuttner spent the mid-1950s getting his master's degree but died of a heart attack in Los Angeles in 1958.

==Known pseudonyms==
* Edward J. Bellin
* Paul Edmonds
* Noel Gardner
* Will Garth
* James Hall
* Keith Hammond
* Hudson Hastings
* Peter Horn
* [[Kelvin Kent (writer)|Kelvin Kent]] (used for work with [[Arthur K. Barnes]])
* Robert O. Kenyon
* C. H. Liddell
* Hugh Maepenn
* Scott Morgan
* Lawrence O'Donnell
* [[Lewis Padgett]]
* Woodrow Wilson Smith
* Charles Stoddard (house pseudonym used by others as well)

==Partial bibliography==

===Short stories===
[[File:Marvel science stories 193808 v1 n1.jpg|thumb|185px|Kuttner's novelette "Avengers of Space" took the cover for the debut issue of [[Marvel Science Stories]] in 1938]]
[[File:Weird Tales July 1938.jpg|thumb|185px|Kuttner's novelette "Spawn of Dagon", part of his Elak of Atlantis series, was the cover story for the July 1938 ''[[Weird Tales]]'']]
[[File:Weird_Tales_October_1938.jpg|thumb|185px|Another Elak story, "Beyond the Phoenix," was cover-featured in the October 1938 ''Weird Tales'']]
[[File:Planet stories 1943win.jpg|thumb|185px|Kuttner's novella "Crypt-City of the Deathless One" was the cover story for the Winter 1943 issue of ''[[Planet Stories]]'']]

====Tony Quade stories====
* "I. Hollywood on the Moon" (1938)
* "II. Doom World" (1938)
* "III. The Star Parade" (1938)
* "IV. Trouble on Titan" (1941)

====Elak of Atlantis stories====
{{see also|Elak of Atlantis}}
* "Thunder in the Dawn" (1938)
* "Spawn of Dagon" (1938)
* "Beyond the Phoenix" (1939)
* "Dragon Moon" (1940)

====Thunder Jim Wade series (as by Charles Stoddard)====
* "Thunder Jim Wade" (1941)
* "The Hills of Gold" (1941)
* "The Poison People" (1941)
* "The Devil's Glacier" (1941)
* "Waters of Death" (1941)

===="Baldy" Stories====
* "The Piper's Son" (1945)
* "Three Blind Mice" (1945)
* "The Lion And The Unicorn" (1945)
* "Beggars in Velvet" (1945)
* "Humpty Dumpty" (1953)
* "Mutant" (1953)

====Cthulhu Mythos stories====
* "The Secret of Kralitz" (1936)
* "The Eater of Souls" (1937)
* "The Salem Horror" (1937)
* "The Invaders" (1939)
* "Bells of Horror" (1939)
* "The Hunt" (1939)
* "The Jest of Droom-Avesta"
* "Spawn of Dagon"
* "The Frog"
* "Hydra"

====Gallegher stories====
* "The Proud Robot" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1943)
* "The Time Locker" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1943)
* "Gallegher Plus" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1943)
* "The World Is Mine" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1943)
* "Ex Machina" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1948)

====Hogben stories====
* "The Old Army Game" (1941)
* "Exit the Professor" (as Kuttner and as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1947)
* "Pile of Trouble" (1948)
* "See You Later" (as Kuttner and as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1949)
* "Cold War" (as Kuttner and as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1949)

====Other====
* "[[The Graveyard Rats]]" (1936), adapted for ''[[Trilogy of Terror II]]'' (1996) and ''[[Guillermo del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities]]'' (2022)
* "[https://archive.org/stream/Marvel_Science_Stories_v01n01_1938-08.Red_Circle_nbc_Ufikus-DPP/Marvel%20Science%20Stories%20v01n01%20%281938-08.Red%20Circle%29%20%28nbc%29%20%28Ufikus-DPP%29#page/n65/mode/2up Dictator of the Americas]" (as James Hall, 1938)
* "[https://archive.org/stream/Marvel_Science_Stories_v01n01_1938-08.Red_Circle_nbc_Ufikus-DPP/Marvel%20Science%20Stories%20v01n01%20%281938-08.Red%20Circle%29%20%28nbc%29%20%28Ufikus-DPP%29#page/n97/mode/2up Avengers of Space]" (1938)
* "Beauty and the Beast" (1940)
* "Dr. Cyclops" (1940)
* "Masquerade" (1942), adapted for episode of television series ''[[Thriller (U.S. TV series)|Thriller]]'' (1961) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0723085/]
* "[[Mimsy Were the Borogoves]]" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1943) used as the basis for the 2007 film ''[[The Last Mimzy]]'' [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0768212/], and for the French TV adaptation "Tout spliques étaient les Borogoves" (1970)[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0419211/]
* "Clash by Night" (with [[C. L. Moore]]) (1943)
* "[[Nothing but Gingerbread Left]]" (1943)
* "The Twonky" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1942), adapted for [[The Twonky|film]] of the same name in 1953 [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046475/]
* "The Eyes of Thar" (published in ''[[Planet Stories]]'', Fall Issue, 1944)
* "What You Need" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1945) adapted for "[[What You Need (The Twilight Zone)|What You Need]]" episodes of ''[[Tales of Tomorrow]]'' (1952)[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0717093/] and ''[[The Twilight Zone]]'' (1959) television shows [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734690/]
* "The Cure" (1946)
* "The Dark Angel" (with [[C. L. Moore]], 1946), later published as "Dark Angel" (as [[Lewis Padgett]], 1975), adapted for episode of same name of television series ''[[Tales of Tomorrow]]'' [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0717057/]
* "Call Him Demon" (1946)
* "[[Vintage Season]]" (with [[C. L. Moore]]; 1946), filmed in 1992 as ''[[Timescape (1992 film)|Timescape]]'' [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104362/]
* "[https://www.fadedpage.com/showbook.php?pid=20171009 Land of the Earthquake]" (1947)
* "[[Happy Ending (story)|Happy Ending]]" (1949)
* "Satan Sends Flowers" (1953)
* "Or Else" (1953)
* ''The Best of Henry Kuttner'' anthologizes 17 stories. ([[Garden City, NY]]: [[Doubleday (publisher)|Doubleday]], 1975).
* ''The Eyes of Thar'' (1944)
* ''Atomic!'' (1947)

===Fixups===
*''[[Mutant (collection)|Mutant]]'' (the Baldie stories) (1953)
*''[[Robots Have No Tails]]'' (the Gallegher stories, as [[Lewis Padgett]]) (1952)
*''Hollywood on the Moon'' (the Tony Quade stories) (2019)

===Novels===

[[File:Fantastic Novels cover July 1950.JPG|thumb|185px|''[[Earth's Last Citadel]]'' was reprinted in the July 1950 edition of ''[[Fantastic Novels]]''.]]

* ''A Million Years to Conquer'' (1940), published in book form as ''The Creature from Beyond Infinity'' (1968)
* ''[[Earth's Last Citadel]]'' (with [[C. L. Moore]]) (1943, first book publication 1964)
* ''[[Tomorrow and Tomorrow & The Fairy Chessmen|The Fairy Chessmen]]'' (1946, as [[Lewis Padgett]], also retitled as ''Chessboard Planet'' and ''The Far Reality'')
* ''[[Valley of the Flame]]'' (1946, first book publication 1964)
* ''[[The Dark World]]'' (with [[C. L. Moore]] (assumed)) (1946, first book publication 1965)
* ''The Brass Ring'' (with [[C. L. Moore]]) (1946, nongenre, also published as ''Murder in Brass'')
* ''[[Tomorrow and Tomorrow & The Fairy Chessmen|Tomorrow and Tomorrow]]'' (1947, as [[Lewis Padgett]])
* ''Fury'' (as Lawrence O'Donnell with C. L. Moore) (1947, first book publication 1950, later published under the title ''Destination: Infinity'' in 1958)
* ''The Day He Died'' (with [[C. L. Moore]]) (1947, nongenre)
* ''The Mask of Circe'' (1948, first book publication 1971) (Illustrated by [[Alicia Austin]] in 1971)
* ''The Time Axis'' (1949, first book publication 1965)
* ''The Portal in the Picture'' (with [[C. L. Moore]]) (1949, also known as ''Beyond Earth's Gates'')
* ''The Well of the Worlds'' (1952, first book publication 1953)
* ''Man Drowning'' (1952, nongenre)
* ''The Murder of Eleanor Pope'' (1956, nongenre)
* ''The Murder of Ann Avery'' (1956, nongenre)
* ''Murder of a Mistress'' (1957, nongenre)
* ''Murder of a Wife'' (1958, nongenre)

===Collections===
* ''[[Ahead of Time]]''
* ''[[The Best of Henry Kuttner]]''
* ''The Best of Kuttner 1''
* ''The Best of Kuttner 2''
* ''[[The Book of Iod]]''
* ''Bypass to Otherness''
* ''Chessboard Planet and Other Stories'' (with [[C. L. Moore]])
* ''Clash by Night and Other Stories'' (with [[C. L. Moore]])
* ''Detour to Otherness'' (with [[C. L. Moore]])
* ''[[Elak of Atlantis]]''
* ''[[A Gnome There Was]]''
* ''Hollywood on the Moon / Man About Time: The Pete Manx Adventures'' (with [[Arthur K. Barnes]]) (announced for 2011)
* ''Kuttner Times Three''
* ''Line to Tomorrow and Other Stories of Fantasy and Science Fiction'' (with [[C. L. Moore]])
* ''The Michael Gray Murders'' (with [[C. L. Moore]]) (announced for 2012)
* ''No Boundaries'' (with [[C. L. Moore]])
* ''Prince Raynor''
* ''Return to Otherness''
* ''Secret of the Earth Star and Others''
* ''The Startling Worlds of Henry Kuttner''
* ''Terror in the House: The Early Kuttner, Volume One''
* ''Thunder in the Void''
* ''Thunder Jim Wade''
* ''Two-Handed Engine: The Selected Short Fiction of Henry Kuttner & C. L. Moore''
* ''[[The Hogben Chronicles]]''—[[Kickstarter|Kickstarter Project]] posthumously pushed by [[Neil Gaiman]], [[F. Paul Wilson]], [[Pierce Waters]], [[Thomas L. Monteleone]], and with special assist by [[Alan Moore]]. [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/195826489/the-hogben-chronicles-of-henry-kuttner]

===Television===
* "The Martian Eyes" episode(s) of ''[[Lights Out (radio show)#On television|Lights Out]]'' series (1950 and/or 1951) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0632379/][https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0632380/]
* "Price on His Head" episode of series ''[[Sugarfoot]]'' (1958)[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0712892/]
* ''[[Tales of Frankenstein]]'' (pilot for television series that was not picked up, 1958)[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0247751/]
* "The Eye" episode of ''[[Out of the Unknown]]'' television series (1966)[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060387/]

===Comic books===
* "Doiby Dickles Enters High Sassiety"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #12; Summer 1944
* "The Gambler"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #12; Summer 1944
* "The Lord Haw-Haw of Crime"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #13; Fall 1944
* "Doiby Dickles, Da District Attorney"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[All-American Comics]]'' #62; December 1944
* "A Tale of a City"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 12 pages; ''[[Comic Cavalcade]]'' #9; Winter 1944
* "The Cave Kid Goes To Town"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #14; Winter 1944-45
* "The Jewel of Hope"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #16; Summer 1945
* "Doiby Dickles, the Human Bomb"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 12 pages; ''[[All-American Comics]]'' #71; March 1946
* "The Last of the Buccaneers"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 12 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #18; Winter 1945-1946
* "The Man Who Doubled In Death, or, The Duplicity of Johnny Double"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #18; Winter 1945-1946
* "Sing a Song of Disaster"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 12 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #19; April–May 1946
* "Dickles Vs. Fate"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #19; April–May 1946
* "Jonah Was a Jinx"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #19; April–May 1946
* "The Gambler Comes Back"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #20; June–July 1946
* "The Good Humor Man"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #21; August–September 1946
* "What Makes Goitrude Go?"; [[Green Lantern]] / comic story / 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' (1941 series) #21 August–September 1946
* "The Man Who Insults Everybody"; [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern (comic book)|Green Lantern]]'' #22; October–November 1946
* "The Invisible World" [[Green Lantern]] comic story; 13 pages; ''[[Green Lantern]]'' #22; October–November 1946

==Notes==
{{Reflist|30em}}

== Further reading==
* Paul Dale Anderson. "Random Factors: The Recurring Themes of Henry Kuttner." ''Etchings and Odysseys'' 4(1984), 19–21.
* [[Robert Bloch]]. "The Closest Approach" in Bloch's ''Out of My Head''. Cambridge MA: NESFA Press, 1986, 47–53.
* [[Robert Bloch]]. ''Once Around the Bloch: An Unauthorised Autobiography.'' NY: Tor Books, 1995, pp. 79, 94–98, 104–5, 157, 185, 238, 253, 350.
* [[Ray Bradbury]]. "Henry Kuttner: A Neglected Master". Introduction to ''The Best of Henry Kuttner'', NY: Ballantine Books, 1975, pp. vi-xii.
* Don D'Amassa, "Henry Kuttner: Man of Many Voices" in [[Darrell Schweitzer]] (ed.), ''Discovering Classic Fantasy Fiction'', Gillette, NJ: Wildside Press, 1996, pp. 122–125.
*Various. "Recollections of Henry Kuttner By His Friends". ''Etchings and Odysseys'' 4(1984), 9-12, 38. Brief memoirs by [[J. Vernon Shea]], [[Fritz Leiber]], [[Robert Bloch]], [[Leigh Brackett]], [[Edmond Hamilton]], and [[Mary Elizabeth Counselman]].

==External links==
{{wikiquote}}
{{commons category}}
{{wikisource author}}
* [http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/k/henry-kuttner/ Henry Kuttner profile at Fantastic Fiction]
* [http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/lewis-padgett/ Lewis Padgett profile at Fantastic Fiction]
* {{isfdb name|id=Henry_Kuttner|name=Henry Kuttner}}
* {{Gutenberg author | id=Kuttner,+Henry | name=Henry Kuttner}}
* {{FadedPage|id=Kuttner, Henry|name=Henry Kuttner|author=yes}}
* {{Internet Archive author |sname=Henry Kuttner}}
* {{Librivox author |id=564}}
* [https://web.archive.org/web/20080723112028/http://www.millipedepress.com/centipede_press.html Two-Handed Engine: The Selected Short Fiction of Henry Kuttner & C.L. Moore]
* [http://www.haffnerpress.com Books by Henry Kuttner from Haffner Press]
* {{IMDb name|476565}}
* [http://www.philsp.com/articles/pastmasters_12.html Past Masters - A Kuttner Above the Rest (But Wait! There's Moore!)] by Bud Webster, at Galactic Central
* {{LCAuth|n50061631|Henry Kuttner|27|}}
* [https://lccn.loc.gov/n84026029 Lewis Padgett] at LC Authorities, with 8 records, and [https://www.worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n84-026029 at WorldCat]
{{Lewis Padgett}}
{{Authority control}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Kuttner, Henry}}
[[Category:1915 births]]
[[Category:1958 deaths]]
[[Category:20th-century American novelists]]
[[Category:American fantasy writers]]
[[Category:American people of German-Jewish descent]]
[[Category:American science fiction writers]]
[[Category:Burials at Woodlawn Memorial Cemetery, Santa Monica]]
[[Category:Cthulhu Mythos writers]]
[[Category:Jewish American writers]]
[[Category:University of Southern California faculty]]
[[Category:American male novelists]]
[[Category:Weird fiction writers]]
[[Category:20th-century American male writers]]

Talk:Dan Schneider

2022-07-17T18:20:51Z

Die-yng: /* This article has been grossly downplaying the accusations against Dan Schneider */ Reply

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==Remove Reference to Schneider's Weight==
The only Wikipedia article I've ever read that included a comment about the subject's weight is this one. Schneider has not commented extensively about his weight loss and his weight has nothing to do with his career as a TV producer. For these reasons, the article should omit the comment on Schneider's weight in the "personal life" section. Body size is one element of a person's physical appearance; unless Wikipedia article begin routinely making references to people's physical appearance, the mention of Schneider's weight will continue to be out of place and problematic. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2603:7081:4600:B583:CCFE:7647:A0CB:7A2B|2603:7081:4600:B583:CCFE:7647:A0CB:7A2B]] ([[User talk:2603:7081:4600:B583:CCFE:7647:A0CB:7A2B#top|talk]]) 19:18, 26 June 2022 (UTC) 

==Poorly sourced allegations of impropriety==
Schneider and Nickelodeon parted ways. That is well documented. Neither Schneider and Nickelodeon in any official statement gave a reason. Some writers are speculating as to reasons and adding those speculations to the factual reports of the split. Some of those speculations are defamatory and the writers are very careful to not directly state anything that would get them or their publication into legal problems. We should report the fact as sourced, we don't need to report the editorializing, speculation and beliefs of writers included in the factual reports. [[User:Geraldo Perez|Geraldo Perez]] ([[User talk:Geraldo Perez|talk]]) 17:03, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
:The facts are staff at Nickelodeon have said Dan is an "a**hole", and has a bad temper. Numerous articles have reported the "cloud of suspicion" regarding his treatment of young actresses. [[User:Ghoul flesh|'''''Ghoul flesh''''']] • [[User talk:Ghoul flesh|''talk'']] 23:27, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
::Those supposed "facts" were never stated by Nick or Schneider as reason for them breaking ties. No source has stated that those supposed facts were the reason. Some sources have ''speculated'' that that may be the reason using the rhetorical trick of saying some thing happened then something else happened implication of causation but that is all anyone has done, speculated. There is a lot of gossip about his purported behavior but nothing backing it up. [[User:Geraldo Perez|Geraldo Perez]] ([[User talk:Geraldo Perez|talk]]) 01:04, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
:::Comes down to sources. Reddit, Twitter threads, Daily Mail, TMZ, National Enquirer, PageSix (NY Post) don't meet the bar when it comes to serious allegations. [[User:MaxBrowne|MaxBrowne]] ([[User talk:MaxBrowne|talk]]) 08:14, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
:::also don't forget that he is one of god's chosen people. so the allegations simply originate in antisemitism. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.81.225.81|193.81.225.81]] ([[User talk:193.81.225.81#top|talk]]) 23:35, 13 November 2018 (UTC) 
:::: Nonsense. [[User:Sammartinlai|Sammartinlai]] ([[User talk:Sammartinlai|talk]]) 12:38, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
:::I think the most obvious reason these internet rumors should be considered as nothing but rumors is because there is NO WAY in a post #MeToo/#TimesUp world, that he would have been fired for what these rumors claim WITHOUT there being some official word. Nickelodeon simply wouldn't have taken the chance of NOT coming right out and saying this is why he was fired if there was legit evidence simply because if it ever got out that Nickelodeon knew this, and fired him for it and DIDN'T say why, which would warn other networks to stay away from him, then THEY would get raked over the coals. No way they would be trying to protect his reputation by not saying why. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.112.239.6|69.112.239.6]] ([[User talk:69.112.239.6#top|talk]]) 10:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
:While there exist claims against Schneider that remain unsubstantiated, the existence of such claims are a fact of his biography. You cannot wish them away, and refusing to include them is a grave omission. As presented, they are neutrally stated, including claims from multiple sides of the story. Objectivity is the inclusion of multiple perspectives, meaning your wish to exclude certain facts is the subjective position, and frankly, biased and bizarre. [[User:Rorysolomon|Rorysolomon]] ([[User talk:Rorysolomon|talk]]) 05:32, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
::Those claims in of themselves are unsubstantiated and are defamatory. The sources are passing rumors and we do not need to repeat them. Particularly we don't need to highlight it in a sections called "Controversy" which this is not. What we have that is neutral is that he and Nick parted ways and that is already in the article. Nothing more is needed. [[User:Geraldo Perez|Geraldo Perez]] ([[User talk:Geraldo Perez|talk]]) 05:41, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
:::Calling them "passing rumors" is a bald mischaracterization. They are in fact not passing and have dogged Schneider for years, refusing to dissipate. At this point, this controversy is a fact of his biography that warrants mention. It has been discussed and linked to his severance from Nickelodeon in multiple reputable news sources (New York Times, Washington Post). I am not mentioning the claims as fact, nor citing anonymous users on Twitter or Reddit. They have been discussed in newspapers of record and deserve objective mention in a discussion of his life. Your insistence on censoring that is inappropriate. [[User:Rorysolomon|Rorysolomon]] ([[User talk:Rorysolomon|talk]]) 15:22, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
:::: Most of the sources pass [[WP:RS]]; the problem is that they don't state them as fact, which makes the statements ''rumors''. For example, ''Deadline Hollywood'' reports: {{tq|Among other things, '''I hear''' there had been multiple complaints of abusive behavior against Schneider filed by members of his staff.}} Emphasis mine. That is not fact, it is hearsay, gossip. [[User:Amaury|Amaury]] ([[User talk:Amaury|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Amaury|contribs]]) 16:07, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
::::: Fair enough. In that case let's include my edits but omit the ''Deadline Hollywood'' reports and rely only on the ''New York Times'' and ''Washington Post''. To be clear, I did not add the ''Deadline'' story to the WP article. It was already referenced – which apparently GeraldoPerez is OK with – I only cited it again, but my edits stand alone without it. Frankly I'm amazed that GeraldoPerez feels he is in a better position than NY Times to determine whether certain claims pass muster. If he objects to the claim, perhaps he should petition NYT to issue a retraction. Until then, WP should mention the existence of this controversy as a fact of this person's biography. [[User:Rorysolomon|Rorysolomon]] ([[User talk:Rorysolomon|talk]]) 16:26, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
:::::: Their reports are based on ''Deadline Hollywood''{{'}}s report, which is the first site that reported the departure, so we cannot do that. Unless we have cold hard facts, not just hearsay, we shouldn't be reporting anything. You should have been here discussing this after you were first reverted, per [[WP:BRD]], especially given that this material has been reverted or removed numerous times before. See [[Talk:Bella and the Bulldogs/Controversy]] for a similar example, in which editors tried to push for something that did not belong on the article. [[User:Amaury|Amaury]] ([[User talk:Amaury|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Amaury|contribs]]) 16:49, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
{{od}} What we know and can reference is that Schneider and Nickelodeon split. People were surprised at that as Schneider seemed to be doing good work for them. There may have been a $7million payout as part of the split, and sources says that Schneider was a target of false on-line smears and the real reason for the split was management disagreements. We should not mention other people as that gives the appearance of being the same thing and what happened to Savino is much better supported. We should not be giving details about the content of the unsubstantiated rumors as that is the point that is potentially defamatory. As originally written the content paints a picture in the reader's mind of something that would be blatantly defamatory if directly stated. Everyone is careful to not be identified, no direct accusations are made and there is no proof provided. It would be different if someone had actually come forward and made a claim, but nobody has. That kind of content does not belong in this article. What NYT and WaPo chooses to published is their own editorial choices and we are not slaved to what they choose to do. If anything is added to the article, it should be a part of the previous paragraph that mentions his departure. It should not be a separate section and should avoid any mention of the details of any of the rumors. [[User:Geraldo Perez|Geraldo Perez]] ([[User talk:Geraldo Perez|talk]]) 18:42, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
:Agree. In particular, I would like to point out the policy [[WP:BLPGOSSIP]] to {{u|Rorysolomon}}. --[[User:Crazycomputers|Chris]] [[User talk:Crazycomputers|(talk)]] 20:34, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
: OK. Could someone advise the protocol to proceed here? Should I resubmit some text that is edited to be in agreement with this discussion? [[User:Rorysolomon|Rorysolomon]] ([[User talk:Rorysolomon|talk]]) 16:59, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
::I'd recommend that you propose some text on this talk page, for two reasons: this will prevent another edit war, and we want to be mindful of [[WP:BLP]]. --[[User:Crazycomputers|Chris]] [[User talk:Crazycomputers|(talk)]] 17:48, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
This seems to have settled out years ago, but the lack of a controversy section on this page is a glaring omission. I came to this page to find an unbiased report of the allegations against Dan Schneider and found them almost completely missing. Substantiated or not, there should be coverage of the existence of these allegations. [[User:Sgrandpre|Sgrandpre]] ([[User talk:Sgrandpre|talk]]) 02:03, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

:Agree. [[User:Rorysolomon|Rorysolomon]] ([[User talk:Rorysolomon|talk]]) 20:12, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

You won’t find any, Sadly. But just go to his tweeter and you’ll find dozens of pics of children’s feet for some weird reason. But these editors don’t care about that. [[User:ExitFilm(For a Music)|ExitFilm(For a Music)]] ([[User talk:ExitFilm(For a Music)|talk]]) 21:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

== Requested move 4 November 2021 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. '''Please do not modify it.''' Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' ([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]]) [[User:Lennart97|Lennart97]] ([[User talk:Lennart97|talk]]) 11:56, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
----

* [[:Dan Schneider (TV producer)]] → {{no redirect|Dan Schneider}}
* [[:Dan Schneider]] → {{no redirect|Dan Schneider (disambiguation)}}
– This is the most common Dan Schneider today. [[User:TheRafaMarc15|TheRafaMarc15]] ([[User talk:TheRafaMarc15|talk]]) 01:30, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

* '''Support''' – Here are the page views for each of the Dan Schneider-related pages in the last 30 days according to the page information tool:
** [[:Dan Schneider]] (disambiguation page) - 1,059
** [[:Dan Schneider (TV producer)]] (this page) - 59,180
** [[:Dan Schneider (writer)]] - 328
** [[:Dan Schneider (baseball)]] - 115
** [[:Dan Schneider (entrepreneur)]] - 123. [[User:Aoi|Aoi (青い)]] ([[User talk:Aoi|talk]]) 01:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
* '''Support''' per above. Clear [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]. — [[User:JohnFromPinckney|JohnFromPinckney]] ([[User talk:JohnFromPinckney|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/JohnFromPinckney|edits]]) 11:06, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 04:26, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
* '''Support''' - He is most notable out of every Dan Schneider page. Unnecessary disambiguation here. [[User:Tinton5|Tinton5]] ([[User talk:Tinton5|talk]]) 00:19, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div>
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

== This article has been grossly downplaying the accusations against Dan Schneider ==

This article has no mention of the accusations against Dan Schneider about his sexualization of young actors and actresses. A discussion was made about this in 2019 but this needs to be re-addressed. These aren’t rumors from Twitter or Reddit, there are many articles detailing these accusations, and Schneider was even asked about it in a 2021 interview. Arguably, this is what Schneider is now most known for and is a staple of his legacy. This needs to be addressed. [[User:TheXuitts|TheXuitts]] ([[User talk:TheXuitts|talk]]) 08:52, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

:It's irrelevant how "detailed" the accusations are if there's zero proof. Ditto for how popular this characterization is on the internet. You're approaching this from the school of thought that says where there's smoke there's fire. In fact articles report that the Viacom investigation cleared him of any sexual misconduct. [[User:Jaeran|Jaeran]] ([[User talk:Jaeran|talk]]) 15:06, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

::A Viacom investigation clearing him (I Googled it and couldn’t find anything about it but feel free to link it) doesn’t dismiss the various allegations made against him. The fact of the matter is that this the pinnacle of his reputation and blatantly '''ignoring''' this absolutely gigantic scandal is reprehensibly irresponsible of us. [[User:TheXuitts|TheXuitts]] ([[User talk:TheXuitts|talk]]) 23:23, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
:::Completely Agreed. It's astounding that the article doesn't even ''mention'' the many allegations against him, especially when it's becoming the most notorious part of his career. It's disgusting to shelter this sick predator, and for what? [[Special:Contributions/71.115.225.176|71.115.225.176]] ([[User talk:71.115.225.176|talk]]) 16:48, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
::::I also agree. It's basically all people are talking about in relation to Schneider, and there's nothing about it on Wikipedia?
::::Even if there is no factual evidence (I'm not sure, as I haven't researched it extensively myself), the wiki page should at least mention that the controversy exists.
::::What's wrong with citing sources reporting that claims and accusations were made? It's like if someone was accused of murder, it would be mentioned on the wikipage as well, because it is part of the biography, same as the accusations here have become part of Schneider's biography. [[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 18:20, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Scream (2022 film)

2022-01-16T20:22:54Z

Die-yng: /* Plot */ Martha is Randy's sister, not his brother, I changed that accordingly.

{{pp-semi|small=yes}}
{{short description|2022 American slasher film}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=January 2022}}
{{Infobox film
| name = Scream
| image = Scream2022film.jpeg
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = {{Plainlist|
* [[Matt Bettinelli-Olpin]]
* [[Tyler Gillett]]
}}
| producer = {{Plainlist|
* William Sherak
* James Vanderbilt
* Paul Neinstein
}}
| writer = {{Plainlist|
* [[James Vanderbilt]]
* [[Guy Busick]]
}}
| based_on = {{based on|[[List of Scream (film series) characters|Characters]]|[[Kevin Williamson (screenwriter)|Kevin Williamson]]}}
| starring = {{Plainlist|
* [[David Arquette]]
* [[Neve Campbell]]
* [[Courteney Cox]]
* [[Melissa Barrera]]
* [[Jenna Ortega]]
* [[Jack Quaid]]
* [[Dylan Minnette]]
* [[Mason Gooding]]
* [[Jasmin Savoy Brown]]
* [[Mikey Madison]]
* [[Sonia Ben Ammar]]
* [[Marley Shelton]]
}}
| music = [[Brian Tyler]]
| cinematography = Brett Jutkiewicz
| editing = Michel Aller
| studio = {{Plainlist|
* [[Spyglass Media Group]]
* Project X Entertainment
}}
| distributor = [[Paramount Pictures]]
| released = {{Film date|2022|1|14}}
| runtime = 114 minutes<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://screenrant.com/tag/scream-5/|title=Scream 5 (2022) | ScreenRant|website=[[Screen Rant]]}}</ref>
| country = United States
| language = English
| budget = $24 million<ref name="BOProjections">{{cite web|url=https://variety.com/2022/film/box-office/scream-box-office-opening-weekend-estimates-spiderman-no-way-home-1235151677/|title=Will ''Scream'' End ''Spider-Man: No Way Home''s' Mighty Box Office Reign?|date=January 12, 2022|first=Rebecca|last=Rubin|website=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=January 12, 2022}}</ref>
| gross = $30.6 million<ref name="BOM">{{Cite Box Office Mojo |id=11245972|title=Scream|access-date=January 15, 2022}}{{cbignore}}</ref><ref name="NUM">{{cite The Numbers |title=Scream |id=Scream-(2022) |access-date=January 16, 2022}}</ref>
}}
'''''Scream''''' (also informally known as '''''Scream 5''''') is a 2022 American [[slasher film]] directed by [[Matt Bettinelli-Olpin]] and [[Tyler Gillett]] and written by [[James Vanderbilt]] and [[Guy Busick]]. It is the fifth installment in the [[Scream (franchise)|''Scream'' film series]]. Though billed as a relaunch of the film series, the film is a direct [[sequel]] to ''[[Scream 4]]'' (2011), and the first in the series not to be directed by [[Wes Craven]]. The film is dedicated to Craven at the beginning of the closing credits.<ref>{{cite web |title='Scream' review: It's smug, bloody and fairly entertaining. Neve Campbell leads a better cast than this latest sequel deserves. |url=https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/movies/michael-phillips/sc-ent-scream-movie-review-0113-20220113-d4aw42gnbbdvjhmb73vosssvka-story.html |website=ChicagoTribune.com}}</ref> The film stars franchise veterans [[David Arquette]], [[Neve Campbell]], [[Courteney Cox]], and newcomers [[Melissa Barrera]], [[Jenna Ortega]], [[Jack Quaid]], [[Dylan Minnette]], [[Mason Gooding]], [[Jasmin Savoy Brown]], [[Mikey Madison]], and [[Sonia Ben Ammar]], with [[Marley Shelton]], [[Skeet Ulrich]], [[Heather Matarazzo]], and [[Roger L. Jackson]] reprising their roles from previous installments. In this film, a new killer has donned the [[Ghostface (identity)|Ghostface]] mask and begins targeting a group of teenagers to resurrect secrets from the town's deadly past.

Although fifth and sixth ''Scream'' installments were discussed after the release of ''Scream 4'' in 2011, Craven, writer [[Kevin Williamson (screenwriter)|Kevin Williamson]], and executive producer [[Harvey Weinstein]] all cast doubts on their likelihood following the less-than-expected box office performance of the fourth film. A [[Scream (TV series)|''Scream'' television series]] was then produced, airing on [[MTV]] from 2015 to 2016 across [[List of Scream episodes|two seasons]], with a [[Scream: Resurrection|third season]] airing on [[VH1]] in July 2019. After the 2017 [[Harvey Weinstein sexual abuse cases|sexual assault allegations against Weinstein]] and the closure of [[The Weinstein Company]], the rights to the ''Scream'' franchise were acquired by [[Spyglass Media Group]] in November 2019, who confirmed a new film would be made. The following year, Williamson, who was returning as an executive producer, confirmed the film would not be a reboot, and Bettinelli-Olpin and Gillett were hired to direct in March 2020. Campbell and Arquette were confirmed to be returning later that month, with Cox and the new cast members joining throughout the summer. After production was delayed due to the ongoing [[COVID-19 pandemic]], filming took place from September through November 2020 in [[North Carolina]]. To avoid story leaks, numerous versions of the screenplay were produced and several additional scenes were filmed.

''Scream'' was theatrically released in the United States on January 14, 2022, by [[Paramount Pictures]]. Critics praised the film as honoring Craven's legacy and remaining a meta commentary on horror films, with some calling it the best of the ''Scream'' sequels.<ref>{{cite web|url= https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/scream-first-reviews/ |title= Scream First Reviews: A Bloody, Funny Thrill Ride That Honors Wes Craven's Legacy |date=January 12, 2022|website=[[Rotten Tomatoes]]|access-date=January 14, 2022}}</ref>

==Plot==
{{Long plot|section|date=January 2022}}
Twenty-five years after Billy Loomis and Stu Macher [[Scream (1996 film)|terrorized the town of Woodsboro]], high schooler Tara Carpenter is home alone and texting her friend, Amber Freeman. The landline rings and Tara answers only to be confronted by a sadistic caller, who forces her to answer horror trivia by threatening Amber's life. When she gets a question wrong, [[Ghostface (identity)|Ghostface]] breaks into the house and attacks Tara, breaking her leg and stabbing her multiple times.

Out of town, Tara's older sister Sam Carpenter is informed by Tara's friend Wes Hicks about the attack. Sam returns to Woodsboro with her boyfriend Richie to visit Tara at the hospital, who survived the attack. Meanwhile, Wes' mother, Sheriff Judy Hicks, gathers the rest of their friend group – Amber, twin siblings Chad and Mindy Meeks-Martin, and Liv McKenzie – for questioning. Shortly afterwards, Liv's summer fling Vince Schneider is murdered by Ghostface outside of a bar. After an encounter with Ghostface in the hospital cafeteria, Sam, who struggles with hallucinations of Billy Loomis, discloses to Tara that he is her biological father, the reason why she left town and became estranged from her.

The next day, Sam and Richie visit a reclusive Dewey Riley, who has been in a bad place ever since his divorce from [[Gale Weathers]]. They ask for his help in stopping the killer, but he declines and kicks them out. However, Dewey contacts [[Sidney Prescott]] and Gale, changing his mind and joining the teens at Mindy and Chad's home where he reunites with the twins' mother Martha, the sister of the late Randy Meeks. As they attempt to uncover the connection between the killer and Sam, Vince is revealed to be Stu's nephew. With the three attacks being on people related in some capacity to the original killers, Sam is accused of being the killer and angrily flees.

Sometime later, Ghostface murders Judy and Wes at their house and Sam and Dewey arrive on the scene, reuniting with Gale who is in town to cover the story. At the hospital, Tara and Richie are attacked by Ghostface, who is stopped by an arriving Dewey. Sam, Tara, and Richie escape, but Dewey stays in an attempt to ensure Ghostface is dead and is killed. Sidney, who has also returned to Woodsboro, asks Sam to help take down the killer, but she declines, choosing to leave town with Richie and Tara. Sidney and Gale follow the trio to Amber's house, revealed to be Stu's old house. As the party is in progress to honor Wes' memory, Chad goes outside where he is attacked by Ghostface. Mindy is also attacked but Sam intervenes and manages to fend off Ghostface.

As the group accuse each other of being Ghostface, Amber shoots and kills Liv, revealing herself as the killer. When Gale and Sidney arrive, Amber feigns injury, but Sidney nor Gale buy her performance and Amber shoots Gale before running back inside. Sidney runs after her and searches for Amber. Sidney accidentally accidentally shoots Richie, who is hiding, and suddenly, Ghostface attacks the pair before throwing himself and Sidney over the railing and onto the ground floor. Sam is surprised to see Richie alive, but he reveals himself as Tara's attacker and Amber's accomplice, stabbing her.

Amber and Richie take Sam, Sidney, and Gale into the kitchen, revealing they are obsessively dedicated fans of the ''Stab'' series. They are disappointed in its trajectory and want to provide a new story to be adapted, planning to frame Sam as the villain since she's Billy's daughter. Amber goes to retrieve the captured Tara but is attacked by her, having been untied by Sam. Sidney and Sam overpower Richie, while Gale shoots Amber, who lands on the stove and is lit aflame and collapses. Richie taunts a seemingly helpless Sam, but she retrieves Amber's knife and stabs Richie multiple times in the chest and neck before unloading his gun into him. A badly burned Amber appears attempting to attack the group with a knife, but is shot dead by Tara

Tara and the Meeks twins are taken to the hospital as Sam thanks Sidney and Gale for their help. Gale, refusing to report about the new murders to not give the killers notoriety, plans instead to write a touching tribute about Dewey.

==Cast==
{{details|topic=individual characters|List of Scream (film series) characters}}
{{details|topic=cast members|List of Scream (film series) cast members}}
{{Cast listing|
* [[Melissa Barrera]] as Samantha "Sam" Carpenter<ref name="EW First Look">{{cite web |last=Collis |first=Clark |date=October 11, 2021 |title=''Scream'' first look: Neve Campbell, Courteney Cox, David Arquette join franchise newbies (and Ghostface) in fifth film |url=https://ew.com/movies/scream-exclusive-first-look/ |access-date=October 11, 2021 |website=[[Entertainment Weekly]]}}</ref><ref name="Featurette">{{cite web |title=Scream - Ghostface Is Back Featurette (2022 Movie) |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUsF05mugR4 |publisher=[[Paramount Pictures]] |via=[[YouTube]] |date=November 4, 2021 |access-date=November 7, 2021}}</ref>
* [[Jenna Ortega]] as Tara Carpenter<ref name="EW First Look" /><ref name="CharacterNames" />
* [[Jack Quaid]] as Richard "Richie" Kirsch<ref name="EW First Look" /><ref name="Featurette" />
* [[David Arquette]] as [[Dewey Riley]]
* [[Neve Campbell]] as [[Sidney Prescott]]
* [[Courteney Cox]] as [[Gale Weathers]]
* [[Dylan Minnette]] as Wes Hicks<ref name="EW First Look" /><ref name="Featurette" />
* [[Mason Gooding]] as Chad Meeks-Martin<ref name="EW First Look" /><ref name="CharacterNames">[https://collider.com/scream-ghostface-mask-2022-video-posters/ ''Scream'' Featurette and 9 New Character Posters Ask Who's Hiding Behind Ghostface's Mask]</ref>
* [[Jasmin Savoy Brown]] as Mindy Meeks-Martin<ref name="EW First Look" /><ref name="Featurette" />
* [[Mikey Madison]] as Amber Freeman<ref name="EW First Look" /><ref name="CharacterNames" />
* [[Sonia Ben Ammar]] as Liv McKenzie<ref name="EW First Look" /><ref name="CharacterNames" />
* [[Marley Shelton]] as Sheriff Judy Hicks
* [[Kyle Gallner]] as Vince Schneider<ref name="EW First Look" />
* Reggie Conquest as Deputy Farney
* [[Skeet Ulrich]] as Billy Loomis
* [[Roger L. Jackson]] as the voice of [[Ghostface (identity)|Ghostface]]
* [[Heather Matarazzo]] as Martha Meeks
* Chester Tam as Deputy Vinson
}}

Additionally, [[Horror fiction|horror]] [[blog]]gers James A. Janisse and Chelsea Rebecca from the [[YouTube]] channel ''Dead Meat'' [[Cameo appearance|cameo]] as film critics. When Richie is watching a [[YouTube]] video about ''Stab 8'', the thumbnail beside it features a photograph of [[Hayden Panettiere]] as her ''[[Scream 4]]'' character [[Kirby Reed]], referring to her as a "Woodsboro Survivor"; Panettiere receives a "Special Thanks" credit for the photo.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Hedash |first1=Kara |title=Is Kirby In Scream 2022? Did She Survive Scream 4? |url=https://screenrant.com/scream-2022-kirby-hayden-panettiere-survive-confirm |website=ScreenRant |access-date=January 15, 2022 |date=January 14, 2022}}</ref>

==Production==

===Development===
In 2011, [[Wes Craven]] confirmed he was contracted to work on a fifth and sixth installment of the ''Scream'' franchise, to be made if the fourth film achieved a successful release and reception.<ref name="cravenFuture">{{cite web |url=https://ew.com/article/2010/04/28/scream-4-poster-wes-craven/ |title=Exclusive: New ''Scream 4'' poster, plus an interview with Craven |publisher=Entertainment Weekly |access-date=December 30, 2021 |archive-url=https://www.webcitation.org/67szu8BFx?url=http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/04/28/scream-4-poster-wes-craven/ |archive-date=May 23, 2012 |url-status=live}}</ref> Following difficulties with script rewrites on ''Scream 2'', ''Scream 3'', and ''Scream 4'', often with pages only being ready on the day of filming, and the related stress of the situation, Craven stated that he would need to see a finalized version of a script for ''Scream 5'' before committing to the production.<ref name="EntertainmentWeekly1150">{{cite journal |last1=Stack |first1=Tim |date=April 15, 2011 |title=Scream |journal=Entertainment Weekly |issue=1150 |pages=30–37}}</ref> Williamson also confirmed he had contractual obligations for scripts for ''Scream 4'' and ''Scream 5'', having submitted concepts for three films leading up to ''Scream 6'', though his contract for the sixth film had not yet been finalized. Williamson indicated that if a ''Scream 5'' were to be made, it would be a continuation of the story of the characters who lived through ''Scream 4'' but that ''Scream 4'' would not include any cliffhangers that led into the potential sequel.<ref name="FEARnetLaurenGraham">{{cite news |url=http://www.fearnet.com/news/interviews/b18914_exclusive_kevin_williamson_talks_scream.html |title=Exclusive: Kevin Williamson Talks ''Scream 4'', ''5'' and ''6'' |last=McCabe |first=Joseph |work=[[FEARnet]] |date=April 23, 2010 |access-date=May 1, 2010 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100429145856/http://www.fearnet.com/news/interviews/b18914_exclusive_kevin_williamson_talks_scream.html |archive-date=April 29, 2010|url-status=dead}}</ref>

Before the release of ''Scream 4'', actor David Arquette also supported a potential future of the franchise, stating "[the ending] definitely leaves it open," before adding that he would welcome the opportunity to play the character of Dewey in future installments.<ref>{{cite web |last=Douglas |first=Edward |url=https://www.comingsoon.net/horror/pb_article_type/720294-exclusive-will-scream-4-relaunch-the-franchise |title=Exclusive: Will Scream 4 Relaunch the Franchise? |publisher=ComingSoon |date=October 27, 2010 |access-date=December 31, 2021 |archive-url=https://www.webcitation.org/67szwlAj3?url=http://www.shocktillyoudrop.com/news/topnews.php?id=17014 |archive-date=May 23, 2012 |url-status=live}}</ref> In May 2011, executive producer [[Harvey Weinstein]] confirmed that a sequel was possible, saying that despite ''Scream 4'' performing below [[The Weinstein Company]]'s financial expectations, he was still happy with its box office gross.<ref name="WeinsteinFuture">{{cite web |url=http://www.mtv.com/news/2439265/scream-series-harvey-weinstein/ |title=The ''Scream'' Series Is Far From Over, Says Producer Harvey Weinstein |work=MTV |date=May 17, 2011 |access-date=December 31, 2021 |archive-url=https://www.webcitation.org/67szxjNN7?url=http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2011/05/17/scream-series-harvey-weinstein/ |archive-date=May 23, 2012 |url-status=live}}</ref> In February 2012, when asked about the potential for making ''Scream 5'', Williamson stated at the time that he did not know if it would be made, saying "I'm not doing it."<ref name="FutureMarch2012">{{cite web |first=Abbie |last=Bernstein |title=Exclusive Interview: The Season 3 scoop on THE VAMPIRE DIARIES from Kevin Williamson |url=https://www.assignmentx.com/2012/exclusive-interview-the-season-3-scoop-on-the-vampire-diaries-from-kevin-williamson/ |publisher=Midnight Productions |work=Assignment X |date=February 9, 2012 |access-date=December 31, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120217062001/http://www.assignmentx.com/2012/exclusive-interview-the-season-3-scoop-on-the-vampire-diaries-from-kevin-williamson/ |archive-date=February 17, 2012 |url-status=live}}</ref>

On September 30, 2013, Harvey Weinstein expressed his interest in a fifth installment, stating "I'm begging [Bob Weinstein] to do the movie and just end it. We've milked that cow."<ref>{{cite web |first=Nigel M. |last=Smith |url=https://www.indiewire.com/2013/09/the-10-best-things-harvey-weinstein-said-at-his-zurich-film-festival-masterclass-34422/ |title=The 10 Best Things Harvey Weinstein Said at His Zurich Film Festival Masterclass |website=IndieWire.com |date=September 30, 2013 |access-date=December 31, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160303230014/http://www.indiewire.com/article/the-10-best-things-harvey-weinstein-said-at-his-zurich-film-festival-masterclass?page=2#articleHeaderPanel |archive-date=March 3, 2016 |url-status=live}}</ref> In July 2014, Williamson expressed doubt on a fifth film happening, saying "I guess ''Scream 4'' never took off in a way they hoped". He also elaborated on his departure from the series as Craven and his team were "done with him".<ref>{{cite web |last=Miska |first=Brad |url=https://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3304623/scream-craven-done-kevin-williamson-sequels-wanna-buy/ |title=''Scream'': Craven Is "Done With" Kevin Williamson; Has More Sequels If "They Wanna Buy [Them]" |date=July 24, 2014 |website=Bloody Disgusting |access-date=September 18, 2020 |archive-date=October 28, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201028040944/https://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3304623/scream-craven-done-kevin-williamson-sequels-wanna-buy/ |url-status=live}}</ref> On June 25, 2015, the ''Wall Street Journal'' conducted an interview with [[Bob Weinstein]]. When asked about the possibility of a film continuation after ''Scream 4'', Weinstein firmly denied the possibility of a fifth installment or any further continuation of the film franchise, citing the [[Scream (TV series)|MTV television series]] as the right place for the franchise to find new life. "It's like putting an art-house movie in an art-house theater," Weinstein said. "Where the teens reside is [[MTV]]."<ref>{{cite web |last=Jurgensen |first=John |url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-scream-help-mtv-win-back-missing-teens-can-scream-help-mtv-1435257855 |title=Can ''Scream'' Help MTV Win Back Missing Teens? |publisher=WSJ |date=June 25, 2015 |access-date=September 28, 2016 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161017075846/http://www.wsj.com/articles/can-scream-help-mtv-win-back-missing-teens-can-scream-help-mtv-1435257855 |archive-date=October 17, 2016 |url-status=live}}</ref>

Following the closure of The Weinstein Company in the wake of [[Harvey Weinstein sexual abuse cases|numerous sexual misconduct allegations]] against Harvey Weinstein, the fate of the ''Scream'' franchise was in limbo. In early 2019, reports began to circulate that [[Blumhouse Productions]], which specializes in horror-themed films, was interested in reviving the series, and that studio head [[Jason Blum]] was working on making such ''Scream'' installments happen.<ref>{{Cite web |url=https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2467099/blumhouse-is-considering-new-scream-and-hellraiser-movies |title=Blumhouse is Considering New Scream and Hellraiser Movies |date=February 18, 2019 |access-date=July 2, 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200520064835/https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2467099/blumhouse-is-considering-new-scream-and-hellraiser-movies |archive-date=May 20, 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> These reports were confirmed to be false.<ref>{{Cite web |url=https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2478425/no-blumhouse-isnt-doing-a-scream-reboot |title=No, Blumhouse Isn't Doing A Scream Reboot |first=Nick |last=Evans |publisher=Cinemablend |date=August 21, 2019 |access-date=October 26, 2020 |url-status=live |archive-date=October 30, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201030110621/https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2478425/no-blumhouse-isnt-doing-a-scream-reboot}}</ref> In November 2019, [[Spyglass Media Group]] acquired the rights to make a new ''Scream'' film. It was unknown at the time if it would be a sequel, reboot, or remake. It was also unknown if Williamson would return.<ref>{{Cite web |url=https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3593128/spyglass-resurrection-ghostface-new-scream-exclusive/ |title=Spyglass Resurrecting Ghostface in New ''Scream'' Movie [Exclusive] |date=November 7, 2019 |access-date=November 7, 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200227131204/https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3593128/spyglass-resurrection-ghostface-new-scream-exclusive/ |archive-date=February 27, 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |url=https://moviehole.net/scream-5-coming/ |title=Scream 5 coming! |date=November 7, 2019 |access-date=October 23, 2020 |archive-date=November 19, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201119195819/https://moviehole.net/scream-5-coming/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |url=https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/scream-5-new-movie/ |title=A ''Scream 5'' movie is apparently in the works |website=[[The Daily Dot]] |date=November 7, 2019 |access-date=November 7, 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200122075817/https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/scream-5-new-movie/ |archive-date=January 22, 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |url=https://collider.com/scream-5-spyglass-media-group/ |title=A New ''Scream'' Movie is Currently in the Works |website=[[Collider (website)|Collider]] |date=November 7, 2019 |access-date=November 7, 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200521200132/https://collider.com/scream-5-spyglass-media-group/ |archive-date=May 21, 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> The next month, it was announced that the film would feature a new cast but could possibly feature appearances from previous main cast members.<ref>{{Cite web |url=https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/scream-reboot-set-future-films-cast/ |title=Scream Reboot Will Set up Future Movies with New Cast Members |date=November 26, 2019 |access-date=December 17, 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200426125026/https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/scream-reboot-set-future-films-cast/ |archive-date=April 26, 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> On November 18, 2020, Kevin Williamson revealed that the film's official title is ''Scream''.<ref>{{cite tweet |last=Williamson |first=Kevin |author-link=Kevin Williamson (screenwriter) |user=kevwilliamson |number=1329091344397082626 |date=November 18, 2020 |title=That's a wrap on Scream, which I'm excited to announce is the official title of the next film! Nearly 25 years ago, when I wrote Scream and Wes Craven brought it to life, I could not have imagined the lasting impact it would have on you, the fans. (1/3) |access-date=November 18, 2020}}</ref>

===Bettinelli-Olpin and Gillett and casting===
[[File:David Arquette Alpha1 2019.jpg|thumb|254x254px|[[David Arquette]] was the first "legacy actor" that was set to star in the film, once again reprising his long-running role of [[Dewey Riley]].]]
In March 2020, it was announced that [[Matt Bettinelli-Olpin]] and [[Tyler Gillett]] would direct the fifth installment, with [[Kevin Williamson (screenwriter)|Kevin Williamson]] serving as an executive producer, and that the film had already entered official development, with filming planned to begin in May 2020.<ref name="OriginalFilmingDate">{{cite web |url=https://movieweb.com/scream-5-production-start-date-fall-2020/ |title=Scream 5 Is Expected to Begin Filming This Fall in North Carolina |last=Scott |first=Ryan |work=MovieWeb |date=May 20, 2020 |access-date=September 26, 2020 |archive-date=June 29, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200629144127/https://movieweb.com/scream-5-production-start-date-fall-2020/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://collider.com/scream-5-ready-or-not-radio-silence-director-plot-details/ |title=''Scream 5'' Scores ''Ready or Not'' Team Radio Silence to Direct (& Scare Us Silly) |last=Gemmill |first=Allie |date=March 12, 2020 |website=Collider |access-date=March 15, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200429191002/https://collider.com/scream-5-ready-or-not-radio-silence-director-plot-details/ |archive-date=April 29, 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> In May 2020, it was announced that [[Neve Campbell]] was in talks to reprise her role as Sidney Prescott in the film.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/neve-campbell-bittersweet-scream-5-talks-1294252 |title=Neve Campbell on ''Castle in the Ground'' and Bittersweet ''Scream 5'' Talks |website=The Hollywood Reporter |first=Brian |last=Davids |date=May 11, 2020 |access-date=May 12, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200516022035/https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/neve-campbell-bittersweet-scream-5-talks-1294252 |archive-date=May 16, 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> That same month, it was announced [[David Arquette]] would be reprising his role of [[List of Scream (film series) characters|Dewey Riley]]; [[James Vanderbilt]] and [[Guy Busick]] were announced as screenwriters. It was also confirmed that the film would begin production later in the year in [[Wilmington, North Carolina]], when safety protocols to deal with the [[COVID-19 pandemic]] were in place.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://deadline.com/2020/05/scream-david-arquette-cast-in-sequel-spyglass-media-group-1202937288/ |title=''Scream'': David Arquette Returning As Dewey Riley In Spyglass Media Group Reboot |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=May 18, 2020 |access-date=July 4, 2020 |archive-date=July 3, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703035900/https://deadline.com/2020/05/scream-david-arquette-cast-in-sequel-spyglass-media-group-1202937288/ |url-status=live}}</ref>

In June 2020, ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' reported that the film was set to be distributed by [[Paramount Pictures]] and was initially aiming for a 2021 release, which would be 25 years since the first movie was released in 1996. ''Variety'' also noted that it was still not known if [[Courteney Cox]] or Campbell, or any other legacy actors other than Arquette, would reprise their roles.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Kroll |first=Justin |date=June 24, 2020 |title=New ''Scream'' Movie From Spyglass Media Will Be Released by Paramount (EXCLUSIVE) |url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/paramount-and-spyglass-scream-1234648119/ |access-date=June 24, 2020 |work=Variety |archive-date=June 24, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200624205349/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/paramount-and-spyglass-scream-1234648119/ |url-status=live}}</ref> On July 31, 2020, Cox posted a video to her official Instagram account, confirming her return to the franchise for the fifth installment. The news was then confirmed by various other outlets.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2551573/courteney-cox-confirms-scream-5-return-with-cool-new-video |title=Courteney Cox Confirms Scream 5 Return With Cool New Video |last=O'Connell |first=Sean |work=CinemaBlend |date=July 31, 2020 |access-date=September 22, 2020 |archive-date=August 21, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200821231445/https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2551573/courteney-cox-confirms-scream-5-return-with-cool-new-video |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://deadline.com/2020/07/courteney-cox-joins-scream-sequel-paramount-spyglass-1203000820/ |title=''Scream'': Courteney Cox Reprising Her Role As News Reporter Gale Weathers In Spyglass Media Group & Paramount Relaunch |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=July 31, 2020 |access-date=September 22, 2020 |archive-date=July 31, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200731174431/https://deadline.com/2020/07/courteney-cox-joins-scream-sequel-paramount-spyglass-1203000820/ |url-status=live}}</ref>

In August 2020, [[Melissa Barrera]] and [[Jenna Ortega]] were cast in undisclosed roles.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/scream-vida-star-melissa-barrera-joins-courteney-cox-movie-spyglass-media-group-paramount-1203015161/ |title=''Scream'': ''Vida'' & ''In The Heights'' Star Melissa Barrera Set For Key Role In Spyglass & Paramount Slasher Movie Relaunch |last=Wiseman |first=Andreas |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=August 17, 2020 |access-date=August 17, 2020 |archive-date=September 24, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200924105517/https://deadline.com/2020/08/scream-vida-star-melissa-barrera-joins-courteney-cox-movie-spyglass-media-group-paramount-1203015161/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://deadline.com/2020/08/scream-jenna-ortega-joins-spyglass-media-group-paramount-pictures-horror-relaunch-1203017853/ |title=''Scream'': Jenna Ortega Joins Spyglass Media Group & Paramount Pictures' Horror Relaunch |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=August 19, 2020 |access-date=August 20, 2020 |archive-date=August 19, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200819221821/https://deadline.com/2020/08/scream-jenna-ortega-joins-spyglass-media-group-paramount-pictures-horror-relaunch-1203017853/ |url-status=live}}</ref> In the same month, Paramount Pictures announced that the film was scheduled to be released on January 14, 2022, having been delayed from its original 2021 tentative release due to the COVID-19 pandemic.<ref name="ReleaseDate">{{cite web |url=https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3629595/scream-5-slashing-theaters-january-14-2022/ |title=Relaunch of ''Scream'' Slashing Into Theaters on January 14, 2022! |last=Miska |first=Brad |work=BloodyDisgusting |date=August 28, 2020 |access-date=August 28, 2020 |archive-date=September 3, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200903041754/https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3629595/scream-5-slashing-theaters-january-14-2022/ |url-status=live}}</ref> In September 2020, [[Jack Quaid]] joined the cast in an undisclosed role.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jack-quaid-scream-reboot-1234755696/ |title=Jack Quaid Cast in ''Scream'' Reboot (EXCLUSIVE) |last=Rubin |first=Rebecca |work=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]] |date=September 1, 2020 |access-date=September 1, 2020 |archive-date=September 1, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200901182234/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jack-quaid-scream-reboot-1234755696/ |url-status=live}}</ref> In the same month, it was confirmed that Neve Campbell, [[Marley Shelton]], and [[Roger L. Jackson]] would return to reprise their roles, with [[Dylan Minnette]], [[Mason Gooding]], [[Kyle Gallner]], [[Jasmin Savoy Brown]], [[Mikey Madison]], and [[Sonia Ben Ammar]] joining the cast.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://bloody-disgusting.com/exclusives/3630063/neve-campbell-confirmed-return-sidney-prescott-new-scream-movie/ |title=Neve Campbell is Back as Sidney Prescott in Spyglass and Paramount's ''Scream'' Relaunch! [Exclusive] |last=Squires |first=John |work=Bloody Disgusting |date=September 10, 2020 |access-date=September 10, 2020 |archive-date=September 10, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200910180237/https://bloody-disgusting.com/exclusives/3630063/neve-campbell-confirmed-return-sidney-prescott-new-scream-movie/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.gamesradar.com/au/scream-5-cast-adds-original-star-neve-cambell-and-numerous-newcomers/ |title=Scream 5 cast adds original star Neve Campbell and numerous newcomers |last=Shepherd |first=Jack |work=GamesRadar |date=September 11, 2020 |access-date=September 21, 2020 |archive-date=September 11, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200911100923/https://www.gamesradar.com/au/scream-5-cast-adds-original-star-neve-cambell-and-numerous-newcomers/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://deadline.com/2020/09/love-victors-mason-gooding-dylan-minnette-scream-movie-1234574582/ |title=Mason Gooding And Dylan Minnette Join Ensemble Of New ''Scream'' Movie |last=Kroll |first=Justin |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=September 10, 2020 |access-date=September 10, 2020 |archive-date=September 10, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200910213853/https://deadline.com/2020/09/love-victors-mason-gooding-dylan-minnette-scream-movie-1234574582/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://variety.com/2020/film/global/sonia-ammar-joins-cast-of-scream-5-set-to-start-shooting-later-this-month-exclusive-1234773213/ |title='Sonia Ammar Joins Cast of ''Scream 5'', Set to Start Shooting Later This Month (EXCLUSIVE) |last=Keslassy |first=Elsa |work=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]] |date=September 17, 2020 |access-date=September 17, 2020 |archive-date=September 20, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200920184209/https://variety.com/2020/film/global/sonia-ammar-joins-cast-of-scream-5-set-to-start-shooting-later-this-month-exclusive-1234773213/ |url-status=live}}</ref> [[Skeet Ulrich]] additionally reprises his role as [[Billy Loomis]], for the first time since ''[[Scream (1996 film)|Scream]]'' (1996).

===Filming===
[[Principal photography]] was originally scheduled to begin in [[Wilmington, North Carolina]], in May 2020, but was delayed due to the [[COVID-19 pandemic]].<ref name="OriginalFilmingDate" /> Filming instead began on September 23, 2020.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.wwaytv3.com/2020/09/22/filming-for-horror-relaunch-gets-underway-in-wilmington/ |title=Filming for horror relaunch gets underway in Wilmington |work=[[WWAY]] |date=September 22, 2020 |access-date=September 22, 2020 |archive-date=September 24, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200924105526/https://www.wwaytv3.com/2020/09/22/filming-for-horror-relaunch-gets-underway-in-wilmington/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.wect.com/2020/09/11/first-permits-scream-issued-filming-begin-sept/ |title=First permits for ''Scream 5'' issued, filming to begin Sept. 22 |work=WECT News |date=September 11, 2020 |access-date=September 22, 2020 |archive-date=September 19, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919165427/https://www.wect.com/2020/09/11/first-permits-scream-issued-filming-begin-sept/ |url-status=live}}</ref> Filming took place across several avenues in Wilmington, including exterior shots of [[Williston Middle School]] and interior shots of Cardinal Lanes Shipyard and 10th Street (between Ann and Castle streets).<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.wect.com/2020/09/16/scenes-scream-be-filmed-williston-middle-school-cardinal-lanes/ |title=Scenes for ''Scream 5'' to be filmed at Williston Middle School, Cardinal Lanes |work=WECT News |date=September 16, 2020 |access-date=September 22, 2020 |archive-date=September 18, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200918233031/https://www.wect.com/2020/09/16/scenes-scream-be-filmed-williston-middle-school-cardinal-lanes/ |url-status=live}}</ref> The film was awarded $7{{nbsp}}million in rebates by the North Carolina Film Office.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.wilmingtonbiz.com/film/2020/11/10/wilmington_film_commission_anticipates_more_projects_revenue_and_jobs/21133 |title=Wilmington Film Commission Anticipates More Projects, Revenue And Jobs |last=Callison |first=Jenny |work=WilmingtonBiz |date=November 10, 2020 |access-date=November 11, 2020 |archive-date=November 12, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201112185746/http://www.wilmingtonbiz.com/film/2020/11/10/wilmington_film_commission_anticipates_more_projects_revenue_and_jobs/21133 |url-status=live}}</ref> Filming wrapped on November 17, 2020.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Squires |first=John |date=November 17, 2020 |title=Filming Has Wrapped on ''Scream 5''; Coming to Theaters in One Year, Two Months! |url=https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3641836/filming-wrapped-scream-5-coming-theaters-one-year-two-months/ |access-date=November 17, 2020 |website=Bloody Disgusting! |archive-date=November 17, 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201117183815/https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3641836/filming-wrapped-scream-5-coming-theaters-one-year-two-months/ |url-status=live}}</ref> The existence of not only multiple versions of the film's screenplay but also multiple filmed scenes, to avoid details of the actual storyline being leaked before the film's release, was confirmed in April 2021.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Miska |first=Brad |date=April 13, 2021 |title=The New ''Scream'' Has Multiple Scripts and Edits [Exclusive] |url=https://bloody-disgusting.com/exclusives/3659914/multiple-versions-new-scream-exclusive/ |access-date=April 14, 2021 |website=Bloody Disgusting}}</ref> During the post-production stage, Michel Aller served as the primary editor for the film.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3676657/scream-directors-tease-unique-risks-franchise-easter-eggs-youll-find-next-years-new-movie/ |title=''Scream'': Directors Tease the 'Unique Risks' and Franchise Easter Eggs You'll Find in Next Year's New Movie |last=Squires |first=John |work=[[Bloody Disgusting]] |date=August 3, 2021 |access-date=October 12, 2021}}</ref> Post-production on the film was completed by July 7, 2021.<ref>{{Cite web |title=New Scream Movie is Complete Filmmakers Confirm |url=https://comicbook.com/horror/news/new-scream-movie-is-complete-filmmakers-confirm/ |first=Spencer |last=Perry |date=July 7, 2021 |access-date=July 8, 2021 |website=[[ComicBook.com]]}}</ref>

===Music===
{{Anchor|Music|Score|Soundtrack}}
{{Infobox album
| name = Scream (Music From The Motion Picture)
| type = soundtrack
| artist = [[Brian Tyler]]
| cover =
| alt =
| released = January 7, 2022
| recorded = 2021
| venue =
| studio =
| genre = [[Film score]]
| length = 70:19
| language =
| label = [[Varèse Sarabande]]
| chronology = ''Scream'' soundtrack
| prev_title = [[Scream (TV series)#Music|Scream: Original Television Soundtrack]]
| prev_year = 2016
| misc = {{Extra chronology
| artist = [[Brian Tyler]] Soundtrack albums
| type = soundtrack
| prev_title = [[Escape Room: Tournament of Champions]] (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack)
| prev_year = 2021
| title = Scream (Music From The Motion Picture)
| year = 2022
}}
}}
On May 12, 2021, it was confirmed that [[Brian Tyler]] would score the soundtrack for the film. Tyler had previously worked with Matt Bettinelli-Olpin and Tyler Gillett on ''[[Ready or Not (2019 film)|Ready or Not]]'' (2019), and would be replacing [[Marco Beltrami]], who composed the score for the previous four films.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://filmmusicreporter.com/2021/05/12/brian-tyler-to-score-matt-bettinelli-olpins-tyler-gilletts-scream/ |title=Brian Tyler to Score Matt Bettinelli-Olpin's & Tyler Gillett's ''Scream'' |work=Film Music Reporter |date=May 12, 2021 |access-date=May 16, 2021}}</ref> The soundtrack album was released on January 7, 2022, by [[Varèse Sarabande]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://filmmusicreporter.com/2022/01/06/scream-5-2022-soundtrack-album-details/|title='Scream' Soundtrack Album Details|work=Film Music Reporter|date=January 6, 2022|access-date=January 6, 2022}}</ref>

Track listing:
{{Track listing
| total_length =
| title1 = New Horizons
| length1 = 3:50
| title2 = Rules to Survive
| length2 = 3:13
| title3 = Ring Ring
| length3 = 2:41
| title4 = Would You Like to Play a Game
| length4 = 6:20
| title5 = Apparitions
| length5 = 4:11
| title6 = Amends
| length6 = 3:05
| title7 = History Repeats
| length7 = 2:28
| title8 = Suspects, Rules and Requels
| length8 = 4:53
| title9 = Cold Refreshments
| length9 = 1:55
| title10 = In Hot Water
| length10 = 4:17
| title11 = Pain in the Neck
| length11 = 2:20
| title12 = Diversions
| length12 = 2:01
| title13 = Lights Out
| length13 = 3:12
| title14 = Hospital Visitor
| length14 = 4:59
| title15 = Sacrifice
| length15 = 5:01
| title16 = Not My Story
| length16 = 2:10
| title17 = I Started All This
| length17 = 1:56
| title18 = Chromeface
| length18 = 2:23
| title19 = The Expert
| length19 = 1:17
| title20 = Welcome to Act Three
| length20 = 3:08
| title21 = Where It All Began
| length21 = 2:21
| title22 = True Fans
| length22 = 4:11
| title23 = Passing the Touch
| length23 = 3:58
| title24 = Ghostface
| length24 = 3:41
}}

==Release==
The film was released on January 14, 2022, by [[Paramount Pictures]].<ref name="ReleaseDate" /><ref>{{Cite web |date=October 12, 2021 |title=Scream 2022: Trailer, Cast, Poster, Release Date & Everything You Wanna Know |url=https://maxblizz.com/scream-2022-trailer-cast-poster-release-date-everything-you-wanna-know/ |access-date=October 12, 2021 |website=MAXBLIZZ}}</ref> The film's red carpet premiere was scheduled for January 11, 2022, but was canceled due to the extended [[COVID-19 pandemic]] and rise of the [[SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant|Omicron variant]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=January 6, 2022 |title=''Scream''{{'}}s Red Carpet Premiere Slashed Amid Covid Surge |url=https://deadline.com/2022/01/scream-premiere-canceled-amid-covid-surge-1234905481/ |access-date=January 6, 2022 |website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]}}</ref>

== Reception ==

===Box office===
In the United States and Canada, ''Scream'' was originally projected to gross at least $20{{nbsp}}million from 3,661 theaters over its four-day opening weekend, which includes the [[Martin Luther King Jr. Day]] holiday.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2022/01/scream-spider-man-no-way-home-weekend-box-office-preview-1234908950/|title=''Scream'' Looks To Pump Some Adrenaline Into Post Christmas Pandemic Box Office – Preview|date=January 12, 2022|first=Anthony|last=D'Alessandro|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|access-date=January 12, 2022}}</ref> Some estimates were higher; ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' and [[Comscore]] both predicted a $25–$30 million opening.<ref name="BOProjections" /><ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/13/scream-looks-to-draw-in-young-horror-fans-jumpstarting-2022-box-office-.html|title='Scream' looks to draw in young horror fans and jumpstart 2022 box office|first=Zach|last=Vallese|publisher=CNBC|date=January 13, 2021|access-date=January 13, 2021}}</ref> ''[[Boxoffice Pro]]'' projected a $28–39 million four-day opening, factoring in positive word-of-mouth, young viewers being part of the target audience, theatrical exclusivity, ticket pre-sales and social media buzz, and the film serving as a revival to a well-known franchise.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.boxofficepro.com/weekend-box-office-forecast-scream-shows-cautious-but-encouraging-signs-as-spider-man-no-way-home-paces-to-reach-top-5-all-time-domestically-over-mlk-frame/|title=Weekend Box Office Forecast: ''Scream'' Shows Cautious-But-Encouraging Signs as ''Spider-Man: No Way Home'' Paces to Reach Top 5 All-Time Domestically Over MLK Frame|date=January 13, 2022|first=Shawn|last=Robbins|website=[[Boxoffice Pro]]|access-date=January 14, 2022}}</ref> The film earned $13.3 million on its first day, including $3.5 million from Thursday night previews. It went on to debut to an estimated $31.5 million (and an estimated $36 million over the four days), becoming the first film to dethrone ''[[Spider-Man: No Way Home]]''.<ref name=opening>{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2022/01/scream-spider-man-weekend-box-office-mlk-1234912797/|title=''Scream'' Hitting Loud Pitch With $36M 4-Day, ''Spider-Man: No Way Home'' Surging Past ''Black Panther'' – Sunday AM Update|date=January 16, 2022|first=Anthony|last=D'Alessandro|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|access-date=January 16, 2022}}</ref>

=== Critical response ===
[[File:Neve Campbell 04 (21268333696).jpg|thumb|upright|The performances of the cast, especially [[Neve Campbell]]'s (pictured), were praised by critics.]]
{{Rotten Tomatoes prose|75|6.7|190|The fifth ''Scream'' finds the franchise working harder than ever to maintain its meta edge – and succeeding surprisingly often.|access-date=January 16, 2022}}<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/scream_2022 |title= Scream (2022) |website=[[Rotten Tomatoes]] |access-date=January 16, 2022}}</ref> {{MC film|60|44|access-date= January 16, 2022}}<ref>{{cite web|title=Scream (2022) Reviews |website= [[Metacritic]] |url=https://www.metacritic.com/movie/scream-2022|access-date=January 16, 2022}}</ref> Audiences polled by [[CinemaScore]] gave the film an average grade of "B+" on an A+ to F scale, while those at [[PostTrak]] gave it a 79% positive score, with 61% saying they would definitely recommend it.<ref name=opening/>

[[Michael Phillips (critic)|Michael Phillips]] of the ''[[The Chicago Tribune]]'' wrote: "If we were to make a franchise-reboot comparison: ''Scream'' lands about halfway between the pretty-good 2018 ''[[Halloween (2018 film)|Halloween]]'' and the turgid follow-up ''[[Halloween Kills]]''."<ref>{{cite web |title=‘Scream’ review: It’s smug, bloody and fairly entertaining. Neve Campbell leads a better cast than this latest sequel deserves. |url=https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/movies/michael-phillips/sc-ent-scream-movie-review-0113-20220113-d4aw42gnbbdvjhmb73vosssvka-story.html |website=ChicagoTribune.com}}</ref> ''[[The Guardian]]'' gave the film 3 out of 5 writing "But it's still capable of delivering some piercing high-pitched decibels."<ref>{{Cite web|date=2022-01-12|title=Scream review – irony-laden horror 'requel' is starting to creak with age|url=https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/jan/12/scream-review-irony-laden-horror-requel-is-starting-to-creak-with-age|access-date=2022-01-12|website=the Guardian|language=en}}</ref> Wenlei Ma of [[News.com]] gave the film 3 out of 5 and felt that "''Scream 5'' lacks the spark Bettinelli-Olpin and Gillett brought to their previous endeavour. ''Scream 5'' is certainly funny and irreverent, but where it falls over is that it’s rarely scary."<ref>{{Cite news|last=Ma|first=Wenlei|date=2022-01-13|title=Few scares in exhausting horror movie|work=news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site|url=https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/movies/movie-reviews/scream-review-few-scares-in-latest-horror-franchise-entry/news-story/73a036e891c5d09b4e6df35320dba803|access-date=2022-01-14}}</ref> Writing for ''[[The New York Times]]'', Jeannette Catsoulis gave the film a negative review criticizing the fan service opining that "Wearyingly repetitive and entirely fright-free, ''Scream'' teaches us mainly that planting Easter eggs is no substitute for seeding ideas."<ref name="Catsoulis">{{Cite news|last=Catsoulis|first=Jeannette|date=2022-01-13|title=‘Scream’ Review: Kill Me Again, Again|language=en-US|work=The New York Times|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/13/movies/scream-review.html|access-date=2022-01-14|issn=0362-4331}}</ref>

The performances of the cast were particularly praised.<ref name="Catsoulis"/><ref>{{Cite web|date=2022-01-14|title=Scream review - does it live up to the original?|url=https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a38693088/scream-review-2022/|access-date=2022-01-14|website=Digital Spy|language=en-GB}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Hassenger|first=Jesse|date=2022-01-13|title=2022’s Scream does for horror what Matrix Resurrections did for sci-fi|url=https://www.polygon.com/reviews/22882012/scream-review-2022-meta-horror|access-date=2022-01-14|website=Polygon|language=en-US}}</ref> Campbell was acclaimed for her performance,<ref name=":0">{{Cite web|last=Goodman|first=Jessica|date=2022-01-11|title=Neve Campbell Is Still the Reigning Queen of 'Scream'|url=https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a38700159/neve-campbell-scream-interview/|access-date=2022-01-13|website=ELLE|language=en-US}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=A Spoiler-Filled Breakdown of the New 'Scream'|url=https://time.com/6139657/scream-5-explained/|access-date=2022-01-14|website=Time|language=en}}</ref> and was noted for her "fresh" take on the role of Prescott. ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' wrote that "... it's a pleasure to see Campbell again in fine form as Sidney, striding back into Woodsboro to take care of unfinished business."<ref>{{Cite web|last=Rooney|first=David|last2=Rooney|first2=David|date=2022-01-12|title=Neve Campbell and Courteney Cox in ‘Scream’: Film Review|url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-reviews/scream-film-review-1235073697/|access-date=2022-01-13|website=The Hollywood Reporter|language=en-US}}</ref> [[Elle (magazine)|''Elle'' magazine]] named Campbell the "Reigning Queen of ''Scream''" and stated that "Sidney might not have that impact on people were it not for Campbell's portrayal, rife with vulnerability, intelligence, and a palatable dose of humor."<ref name=":0" />

== Future ==
Campbell and the film's directors have expressed interest in making future films in the series.<ref>{{cite web |last=Clark |first=Ellie |title=Scream 6 Updates: Original Cast Discuss Possible Return |url=https://screenrant.com/scream-6-neve-campbell-david-arquette-return-response/ |website=ScreenRant |access-date=January 13, 2022 |date=January 11, 2022}}</ref>

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
*{{Official website|https://www.screammovie.com/}}
*{{IMDb title}}
*{{Rotten Tomatoes}}

{{Scream (franchise)}}
{{Tyler Gillett}}

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Talk:Flight 19

2021-12-29T16:51:35Z

Die-yng: /* Paranormal */

{{Talk header}}
{{Article history|action1=GAN
|action1date=12:44, 19 October 2007
|action1result=listed
|action1oldid=165617230

|action2=FAC
|action2date=19:48, 21 March 2008
|action2link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flight 19/archive1
|action2result=not promoted
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|topic=Engtech
|currentstatus=GA

|otddate=2007-12-05|otdoldid=175837118
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|otd6date=2015-12-05|otd6oldid=693601976
|otd7date=2019-12-05|otd7oldid=929309151
|otd8date=2020-12-05|otd8oldid=992183830
}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Aviation|class=GA|Accident=yes}}
{{WikiProject Disaster management|class=GA|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Military history|class=GA|Aviation=yes}}
{{WikiProject Paranormal|class=GA}}
{{WikiProject Skepticism|class=GA|importance=Low}}
}}
__TOC__

==Call letters==
what did they do when the first people dissapeared.

I thought the five planes were discovered earlier this year (2005)?

Actually I think the five planes were found in 1991, not 1981; see Newsweek for 27.05 1991.

:They had the wrong call letters...which begs the question of what ''other'' group of five planes has ever been recorded as going down completely, that close together. More mystery rather than less, from it. Btw, please sign comments, it would help in possibly inviting you to join WP Paranormal, if you'd like to help. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 07:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC) 
::Concur...I recall there was some minor hype about having found 5 planes all together (or very close, under the circumstances), but they were ''not'' the Flight 19 planes. But, the article went on to mention that there were numerous Avengers lost off Florida, as well as other plane types. It had to do with it being a major training area before, during, and after WW2. 
::Let's face it, Florida is all about coastline. And coastline means ocean. And that leads into transportation (recreational, commercial, or whatever), which means losses you can't see or find, back then... Add to it the early stages of air transport - over water in this case - and you get the real explanantion for the "Bermuda Triangle"...[[User:Engr105th|Engr105th]] 19:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I am a viewer of youtube videos and a guy there named DERR115 has placed an analysis of 2 NASA images from past space shuttle flights and he says one of the navy planes is floating past the shuttle and NASA has a photo of it ! He has 79 videos but these are the most recent he posted there. He seems to be very excited about it... I saw it myself, Derr's video. Its very odd but see it yourself...Is it a huge story never told to the American People? omg its so unreal.--Blonde Ignore[[User:Blondeignore|Blondeignore]] ([[User talk:Blondeignore|talk]]) 18:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

== Verification and sourcing ==

There are some references to support certain facts reported here, but it is not clear to readers which sources support which facts. Also, there appear to be some facts which are not sourced at all, especially about later findings. For instance, this claim seems particularly extraordinary:

:''In 1981 the wreckage of five Avengers was discovered off the coast of Florida , but it was found later from serial numbers on engine blocks that they were not Flight 19. The five tightly grouped Avengers had crashed on five different days in the exact same spot.''

It may very well be true, but if so it would be appropriate to cite the most [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] possible, and explain in more detail. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] 10:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure it's true, as I was just watching a Discovery Channel special about the Bermuda Triangle, which talked about Flight 19, and a submarine designed who had found the wreckage of five plains he believed to be Flight 19. Though, as it was said, that was disproved, and was not actually Flight 19.

:Also worth noting - the reference for the Mariner being a ''flying gas tank'' does not refer to an independant source (the source is arguing against any other explanation). Can anyone provide a site that substantiates this claim that is not related to Flight 19 ? I was unable to find one (that does not refer to the site quoted in this article) using Google. One would assume that if this is a ''common'' or ''widely known'' description for this type of aircraft that there would be a non-domain specific reference to it. [[User:shaneg70|shaneg70]]

:There are quite a few regulations in place in the Navy regarding smoking: when, where, for how long, etc. Onboard ships the phrase "the smoking lamp is lit in the starboard break" means one can smoke there and only there. Smoking is forbidden whenever fuel or fumes from fuel are present. The construction of the Mariner was such that the plane had weak points which allowed just enough fumes to enter the fuselage; not enough to jeopardize life, but enough to warrant a posted order forbidding anyone from lighting up inside the aircraft. As to the plane's "flying gas tank" nickname, well, nicks are just not written down. There are plenty of unofficial nicknames, past and present, for military ships, aircraft. One of my ships was called the "Tough-Tender", but you'll never find it by using that name online; you will find it by entering USS Shenandoah AD-44. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 01:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

:Not sure if I remember the name of the documentary, but it showed that the bermuda triangle is one giant magnetic field that messes with compasses. This might have been the case with [Flight 19], in the same documentary they used a working Avenger to find out if it was the case. It (the test Avenger) was not outfitted with any new technology, only the compasses used by Flight 19. To repeat, I forget the name (of the documentation) but it exists, it may give us a clue to Flight 19's fate. [[User:Recent idiot|Recent idiot]] 
::I too have seen these "documentaries". But I'd point out that most of these (Discovery Channel, History Channel, etc) are geared toward ''entertainment''. They blend fact with heresay evidence, and the subtle intention is to increase the controversy, not make a definitive statement. Let's face it - theres a limit to how in-depth one can go in an hour long (or half hour long) TV program....My belief is 1) there is limited, if any, solid evidence for 'compass failure' and 2) in an open ocean area without landmark references, the tendency is for pilots or navigators to declare "instrument malfunction" when they think they're headed in a direction contrary to what the instruments say....I've heard similar disclaimers in the Army on the rifle range during Weapons Qualification - the first excuse a soldiers makes when he's firing badly is that "the rifle isn't shooting straight" (meaning 'theres something wrong with my rifle'). But- the rifle doesn't know how ''not'' to shoot straight! In other words, its the the human element that comes into play. Its the same with reading a compass - its pretty rare that a compass 'malfunctions' especially over long distance travel. Just my 2 cents worth...[[User:Engr105th|Engr105th]] 22:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

=== adding names ===

Someone added on his own account someone named "Shipman" to one of the planes in Flight 19. This is one of the problems besides vandalism here. You have people who never bother to check records; never bother to check facts; never bother to study history related to these incidents; never bother to study anything remotely resembling history; yet they think that they can post a line here as if it was completely factual. As to an individual named "Shipman": there is no one named Shipman connected with Flight 19; no one named Shipman connected with Training 49; no one named Shipman on the memorial plaque at the former NAS Ft Lauderdale base; and there is no one named Shipman listed on the official records of Flight 19. Click this link to see for yourself:[http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/Flight19/index.html] [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 05:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

== "Myth" ==

The term "Bermuda Triangle myth" at the top of the page is not NPOV. A myth is a claim unbacked by scientific study. Gian Quasar has done historical study of the bizarre nature of the disappearances in recent decades in the Triangle-region, in his volume ''Into the Bermuda Triangle'', copyright 2004. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 08:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

:Upon reading this material, I am struck by how naive it seems to be on the nature of the flight, and the strangeness of the activity of what transpired within it; regardless of the eventual likelihood of the planes crashing into the sea, the original causes for disorientation of the flight was quite assuredly ''not'' a "prosaic" one. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 08:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
::A myth is a myth if there is no compelling evidence to demonstrate it is not a myth. The myth is that the Bermuda Triangle has been the location of a disproportionally higher number of aircraft or ship disappearances/disasters than anywhere else. There is no evidence to support that myth when actual facts are applied. To use your words, "I am struck by how naive" someone can be to need to try to invent mysterious reasons why four aircraft got lost, ran out of fuel, and crashed. It happens. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 08:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
:::Incorrect on every front; not only are there more incidents in the "Bermuda Triangle" region than elsewhere, the Coast Guard is notoriously tight-lipped on the subject of how to deal with the matters. "Overdue" is a reason given on planes that have vanished off the radar screen in single passes of the scope. Planes have been founded ditched, but with the doors locked and the keyes still in the ignition. I don't recall anyone ever jumping from a plane and locking the door tightly behind them. In any case, do you wish me to give the litany of the events here, or on the Bermuda Triangle page, one after another? My concern is that the page will become somewhat difficult to load after the 150th section. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 08:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
:::I here offer a "compromise" of sorts; "legendarium" is a word now present that means 'developed mythos'. Whether or not anyone agrees to the validity of such mythos, the flight WAS a foundational point for its development. ''That'' at least, is verifiably NPOV and objective. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 10:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
::::Legendarium is a bit twee, but I'll go for legend if it makes you happy. This article is about Flight 19, NOT the Bermuda triangle. We obviously mention it, because that's where the aircraft ditched, but in the intro we should certainly NOT link to a book and says in its second sentence that the author was ''"the first person to really investigate this phenomenal disappearance with an eye to putting in order what really happened."'' That's bollocks. The navy board of enquiry thoroughly investigated the incident, and determined what actually happened - they got lost, ran out of gas, and ditched. I've noted your remarks about the Coast Guard, and other comments. Please provide irrefutable evidence. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 20:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
:::::Technically there is no such thing as irrefutable evidence. I can refute the claim that everyone in the world has to die someday, and claim that it need be only a matter of time before science finds a way to make humans immortal. There is no way to refute either claim, in such case; likewise, no other claim is beyond refutation. Providing substantial evidence, on the other hand? That I will do. Be warned, however: putting the direct litany of events as they transpired into the page may make it seem to contradict itself, claiming that it is both easy to explain and an intractable mystery of why, for instance, ''all'' their compasses pointed west while sending them far north, to a position tracked by Fort Lauderdale as roughly 200 miles due east of Jacksonville. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 07:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::I feel I need to chip in, here. You are correct, there is no such thing as irrefutable evidence - that is one of the foundations of science, but where is the burden of proof, here? If you make a claim which contradicts all accepted theories of reality, such as your claim of "no death", then the burden is on '''you''' to provide evidence to support your claim; it is not up to me to prove you wrong. I could claim that there are blue Giraffes in Africa which turn invisible when humans approach, and you could not prove than wrong. That does not make my claim reality, though.

::::::Likewise, there is not reason to believe any claim of paranormal activity in the triangle. From all accounts I have read, only one compass went awry, not all of them. It was the instructor who got lost - the students seemed to have a fair idea of where they were, but he did not listen to them. If he did, they would have survided.

::::::Please, do some research, if only to try to prove me wrong, but consider all the reported facts on equal grounds, then ask yourself, which version is the simplest, makes most sense, and fits our current understanding of reality. [[User:Qarnos|Qarnos]] 11:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::::After due consideration of all the facts surrounding the location, it is quite evident to me that attempts to explain what happened to both Flight 19 and a large number of other disappearances in the area (including but not limited to the rather documented disappearances, all without any reasonable trace, of a C-54 in 1947, the on-page loss of the ''Star Tiger'' in 1948, two [http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/into_the_blue.html DC-3s], the NC16002 and N407D in 1949, ''Star Tiger's'' sister plane ''Star Ariel'' under almost exactly the same circumstances in 1949 [the second incident causing the model, perfectly working in nearly all other cases, to be removed from open service], an R7V-1 termed[http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/flight_441.html Flight 441] in 1954, a Martin Marlin in 1956, the Stategic Air Command B-52 ''Pogo 22'' in 1961, the KB-50 tanker ''Tyler 41'' in 1962, two KC-135 Stratotankers in 1962 and 1965 respectively, two [http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/cargomasters.html C-133 Cargomasters], the largest aircraft in the Air Force at that time, in 1962 and 1963, and a C-119 ''Flying Boxcar'' in 1965. Be aware, these are all cases of ''military'' aircraft vanishing without trace, and pared down to roughly 10% of what's available for note, for readability sake...the civilian 'overdue' list is much, much longer, and the list of derelict vessels, some of which having the key still in the ignition, and both doors locked) by mundane means are in such denial of given facts as to make explanations like Mr. Kusche's, and others', all but ludicrous. In the end, I suggest ''you'' research the events in depth, and come up with explanations for air traffic controllers (as I've mentioned elsewhere) losing all radio and radar contact with aircraft more than 30,000 ft. up in a single pass of a radar scope (one of the most documented of cases occuring 1979). --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 01:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::::On further review, something else of note; would your blue giraffes in Africa that turn invisible be backed up by the claims of more than 1,000 people over the period of a quarter of a century? If so, then I would actually be willing to give credence to your claim, for the sake of scientific study alone. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 01:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::I don't really want to be dragged into this discussion, but I have to ask — what exactly is it that "is quite evident" to you, Chr.K.? After writing 185 words in your opening sentence to the first of your two postings immediately above, you apparently forgot to include the verb clause that identifies what happened to the "attempts to explain what happened to Flight 19, or a large number of other disappearances in the area". Could you complete that thought? Thanks. ~ [[User:Jeffq|Jeff Q]] [[User talk:Jeffq|(talk)]] 06:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

::::::::::Apologies; have attempted to fix it for you. Basically, to say it in vastly simpler words, mundane explanations for the verifiably inexplicable, as well as claims that certain explanations should be marginalized by default, are a disservice to science as a whole. --[[User:75.2.22.184|75.2.22.184]] 05:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::Sorry, but this discussion should only be about Flight 19, and (unfortunately for fans of the paranormal) in this case there is a mundane explanation - it is called pilot disorientation. After the turn to North, the instructor did not see the island formations he expected (because the turn occured later than it should have), and decided that he was looking at the Florida Keys. From this, he concluded that his compass was "out", because it didn't agree with the direction he arbitrarily decided they were now heading in. He didn't say the compass was "spinning", or "wandering", and the evidence indicates that all the compasses were working fine. The instructor is is a classic case of someone sticking to a belief even when presented with evidence proving them wrong. A simple explanation for an unfortunate incident. [[User:Logicman1966|Logicman1966]] 13:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
{{od}}I know this is way late but the shortest distance from Fort Lauderdale to Key West is 149 miles and the Avenger's top speed is 275 mph. More over much of that time you have to fly over '''solid land''' and yet it was only after they completed the first leg of the journey that they thought they were lost. It would have taking a ''minimum'' of 30 minutes to get from the base to where Taylor thought he was. What I don't understand is why no one pointed this fact out to him at the time.--[[User:BruceGrubb|BruceGrubb]] ([[User talk:BruceGrubb|talk]]) 12:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

== Footnotes and Navy report link ==

I've created a "Footnotes" section to accomodate a bit of sourced information that clarifies the grouping of the non-Flight 19 Avengers found off Ft. Lauderdale — within 1.5 miles of each other, not "the exact same spot" that was previously claimed. (Hyperbolic exaggeration is a common problem with popular tales of mysterious incidents.) This amply demonstrates why it's so critical to obtain [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable]], [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiable]] sources for articles. It's a very good idea in articles about controversies to add references to specific statements, as had already been done for the Navy investigation mentioned in the intro paragraph.

I changed the Navy link into a footnote that provides the ''same'' link primarily because of two problems: limitations of some source information and limitations of wiki markup. Some sources, as the video program I cite for the Avenger grouping, do not lend themselves to direct links as the Navy data does. The markup problem occurs because of the way WP handles footnotes. The video-source link causes a numbering problem because footnotes share their link numbers with raw URLs. Therefore, if you're going to use footnotes, you need to convert unlabelled external links to footnotes as well. (An alternative is to add the full citation in the text, but that is cumbersome and interferes with the flow of the text.)

This might seem a bit more work to some, as a reader must now click on the footnote number for the Navy info to get the footnote, which then includes the URL for the cited article. I might not have done this if the article already had proper citations of specific information, but as it currently stands, it really needs more of these links, so a proper footnote section is justified. ~ [[User:Jeffq|Jeff Q]] [[User talk:Jeffq|(talk)]] 01:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

:Are you serious?. You '''deliberately''' eliminate a single link action to create two distinct actions. I am reverting to the logical link. If you believe there are other link problems, then fix '''them'''. I refuse to accept this dumbing down of Wiki. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 05:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC).

::Please calm yourself, Moriori. This isn't dumbing down anything. The link is still there. What this is is improving the references of Wikipedia articles. If you hadn't noticed, many WP articles are far below the cornerstone standard of [[Wikipedia:verifiability|verifiability]] through [[Wikipedia:reliable sources|reliable sources]]. Just do a "Random article" walk some time to see how many articles are stubs, and how many of the remainder cite no sources whatsoever. Even the ones with so-called sources are usually links to obscure websites that don't come close to being reliable sources. As I write this, this article claims only three sources, one of which I added (reliable but not easy to access), one which is the Navy report (reliable), and an air-show site (far below usual reliabilty standards). There was no specific source cited for any of the "Bermuda Triangle" information until I added my semi-satisfactory one. We could still use some additional sources, like a citation of a Berlitz book that sets out his claims.

::That said, I'm not wedded to the footnoting of the Navy link. I just want to make sure that any non-inline references are adequately documented without confusing the reader with missing numbers or broken links (which is the current state of the article after your last edit). And whether or not the Navy link is a bare one, it should be listed as a source of information. Based on my quick perusal of that URL, I'd say it's a rather critical one, supplying most of the facts cited in the article. It should be properly documented, and is now. All we need to do is agree on how to present the inline link. ~ [[User:Jeffq|Jeff Q]] [[User talk:Jeffq|(talk)]] 07:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

:::I think I've resolved this issue to both our satisfactions. Based on the most current recommendations at [[Wikipedia:Footnotes]], I've replaced the note/ref templates with ref/reference XHTML tags, which now automatically generate proper references. Because it really isn't a footnote ''per se'', I've moved the info on the Navy report to a new "References" section, which provides proper citation while leaving Moriori's bare URL link in place. Hopefully we can all be happy now. ~ [[User:Jeffq|Jeff Q]] [[User talk:Jeffq|(talk)]] 02:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

==POV inferences removed==
I deleted two parargaphs which lamely tried to justify the POV statement that “an anomaly involving abnormal forces was responsible for the disaster”. Some of my reasons are:
* There has been absolutely no evidence cited for the claim that the navy “were careful to omit” details from its findings
* It is preposterous to say the enquiry gave no consideration to the fact that Flight 19 was actually exercising over the Bahama Cays -- that was Flight 19’s actual mission
*There was absolutely no mystery about lack of radio tringulation for the enquiry board to address as claimed. What is mysterious about aircraft radio message breaking up, being interfered with by Cuban radio stations, and eventually disappearing because the aircraft flew out of strong radio signal range and ended up in the sea?
*Why did the flight leader need to ask for radar to be switched on? Because it was peace time, when radar wasn’t the 24/7 aid it is now. And even if it could have been used, they would have initially been looking for aircraft out west of Florida because that’s where the leader erroneously said they were.
Speculation? No more so than the two conspiracy theory/paranormal paragraphs I have deleted. They sucked. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 03:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
:I cannot understand the point being made here by Moriori unless he has some personal axe to grind rather than serve the interests of Wikipedia. How would the "radio stations" of liberal (not Communist until the 1950s) Cuba interfere with radio transmissions in the Atlantic? Radar is not really relevant. The unresolved question is the radio triangulation, or lack of it. USN radio bearing apparatus in use at the time was able to obtain the bearing of a transmission in the Atlantic lasting only three seconds. Wherever these aircraft were, triangulation should have been possible, and an explanation of why this was not possible is the very matter which Moriori lamely invents, and the USN Board of Enquiry was "careful to omit". Geoffreybrooks
::Please post here your '''''evidence''''' that the USN Board of Enquiry carefully omitted to explain why triangulation was not achieved. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 22:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

== Article needs to redirect to this article ==
"Flight Nineteen", which doesn't exist, needs to redirect. I did a search on "Flight Nineteen" instead of Flight 19 and did not get any results, I was going to give up--[[User:Gakhandal|Gakhandal]] 15:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
::Done. Incidentally, when you post an original comment to a talk page, your message goes at the bottom, not the top. Cheers. 20:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[[User:Moriori|Moriori]]
:::Thank you, Much appreciated. I know about new messages going on the bottom (its just logic), I tried but it seemed to delete and "# 4 POV inferences removed" when I previewed the page, and I couldn't find out what the reason was. I was sure I did not delete it when I created this comment.. I tried putting on top and it worked. Excuse me for that.--[[User:Gakhandal|Gakhandal]] 22:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

== Neutral wording ==
Regarding ''"However, that is totally false,"'' in Bermuda Triangle connection section.

A more neutral (and encyclopaedic) stance to the statement of falsity is desirable. Currently it looks more like a personal opinion than a fact. --[[User:Acolyte of Discord|Acolyte of Discord]] 17:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

:I removed the line in favor of something neutral and readable. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 05:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

== Hopefully improved ==

Made many changes to structure; made minor corrections; added an actual photo of one of the planes; restored the name of the lost PBM-5; added the names of all the lost men; and all in all, made it a bit more readable. All that's needed now is a direct link to the official Navy report. Tell me what you think. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 02:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

== Inquiry problem ==

When clicking on the link to the partial transcript for the Navy Inquiry, you will see at the top of the page 7 DEC 1945, which obsensively is the date the document was made. At the bottom of the document it states the search took place 5-10 DEC 1945, so how could an official document be filed before a search it listed on the document had ended? My impression is that the transcriber of the document made a slight error. Currently, I am in the act of ordering a copy of the inquiry from the Navy, which should settle the matter. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 20:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

== FT FT ==

The direct reference I found for this mysterious, final message is from the New York Times, dated December 6, 1945, and was available to me from Proquest, which is a newspaper and other information cataloging service. Unfortunately, the service is password-oriented, available via colleges and universities. I was able to see it through the portal at the James Walker Library, Middle Tennessee State University[http://www.mtsu.edu]. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 04:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

== Georgia crash site problem ==

Found this little line today in the trivia section: ''"Late Last year, Scientists have found flight 19 in a swamp in Georgia. They matched the numbers found on the wreckage to the no=umbers of the planes in the reports about flight 19 after the disapperance." '' There are no references, no dates, no signature. The individual posting it did not cite sources (i.e. newspapers), nor did he provide actual documentation needed for this site, such a photograph of the site showing an engine block number that could be matched and verified as coming from the missing flight. I've never heard of this happening at all, and I've been interested in Flight 19 for years. It was removed as being not only non-factual, but in my opinion, totally made up. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 17:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually while watching the History Channel right now, the episode is: ''Mysteries of the Bermuda Triangle'', (2005). In the last 10-15 minutes of the episode, a man came on claiming to have figured out that the five airplanes had continued flying west, and ditched in a swamp in Georgia, where some planes have been found. Of course, he gave more details about unidentified aircraft being reported all that day by air traffic controllers, but I honestly wasn't paying attention. It's worth a deeper look and possibly being added to the article. [[:User:Duchess of Bathwick|Duchess of Bathwick]] ([[:User talk:Duchess of Bathwick|talk]] '''·''' [[:Special:Contributions/Duchess of Bathwick|contribs]]) 03:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

:I saw this a couple of weeks ago; there was certainly no mention of Flight 19 actually having been ''found'' in the Okefenokee Swamp. The bloke's theory sounded plausible enough but as far as I could tell it's just a theory. [[User:Mr Larrington|Mr Larrington]] ([[User talk:Mr Larrington|talk]]) 12:28, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Gian Quasar postulated that Flight 19 crashed in Okefenokee Swamp on 2 different TV shows, one recently (January, 2014) and one a few years ago. I saved both recordings and hopefully still have both. I read one of Mr. Quasar's books but did not see him mention his Okefenokee theory. I would like to ask if they crashed there, how did they miss the lights of Jacksonville and perhaps Savannah? Much of FLorida at that was minimally populated but Jacksonville was a good sized city with a major port and had a major Navy presence there as well. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Southjerseymichigan|Southjerseymichigan]] ([[User talk:Southjerseymichigan|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Southjerseymichigan|contribs]]) 16:57, 6 January 2014 (UTC) 

== Navy sources vs others ==

Too much emphasis is given over to the Bermuda Triangle rather than to solid facts, and that pretty much sums up every Triangle incident that happened before and since.

There are two official Navy reports on the matter, one dated 26 December 1945, and the other dated March or April, 1946 (I have to get a hold of the actual report to be sure). The first one has the entire transcripts of the radio communications between Flight 19 and NAS Ft Lauderdale, and between Training 49 and NAS Banana River. There is nothing in this report indicating anything remotely supernatural. Responsibility for the loss of the flight was placed on the flight leader, Lt Taylor.

The second report was done on the demands of Lt. Taylor's mother, who did not like, nor would she tolerate, an official report blaming her son for the loss of five planes and fourteen men, especially when there was no evidence or bodies produced. The Navy subsequently changed its finding to "cause unknown". Again, there was nothing in the second report hinting at the supernatural.

I also added a similar anology to Flight 19, and that was the Diamond Crash involving the USAF Thunderbirds that took place in 1982; the similarity was that they played "follow the leader" to the end. I apologize to both the USAF and USN for a poor choice of words, but I cannot think of anything better in describing a situation in which pilots could have left a formation on their own to avoid a loss of life.

I would like very much to get a link to the Navy reports, but it's not available yet, unless one buys it from the Historical center and starts scanning all five hundred pages. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 02:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
:You immediately assume the situation is being accused of being supernatural, simply because those like I state it to be unexplained to this day. Both Taylor's compasses were reported out; the likelihood of both failing at the same time is suspect, but acceptable. Why could a consensus not be reached when he asked for a read from others? Did ''all'' the compasses fail? Most curious. Why did the directional fix (which is shown in the article) pick them up far to the east of ''Jacksonville''? The compasses, again (or at least those of the leader/leaders), had to have been reading irrationally, as north was never once mentioned as a rational direction to go in the intraflight chatter. This, again, is not "supernatural": it would be a magnetic anomaly of indeterminate origin, and such anomalies have been encountered other times. Later foolish imbellishment by storytellers mucked up the proverbial waters, yes...but the basis of the material remains as some highly curious events, not least of which being why they didn't just follow the setting sun to head west, and instead wound up so bloody northward. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 11:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

:The problem I don't have is with someone who states such and such loss was unexplained; this conclusion acceptable, and it's based on lack of wreakage, witnesses, bodies, etc. For this article to state it explicitly is also acceptable. But the problem I do have are those who wish to invent fantastic or b.s. stories to explain this loss, and the wording they choose to use either ignores the official reports or twists them altogther to make it seem to say something it does not. That is ''why'' we as editors here have a duty to collect the facts and post them; we have a duty to find and post the origins of the every story related to it and what they have been saying; and we have a duty to find and post the official records as well. So, if you know of any other stories about Flight 19, post them, cite them...make the article that much more interesting...perhaps expanding the "Bermuda Triangle connection" subheading, which I think is pretty dull anyway. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 18:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

::There's also another reason for getting the Navy reports. The communications between Flight 19, Flight 74, and NAS Lauderdale were recorded and transcribed. The communications between NAS Banana River and Training 49 were also transcribed. The logbook of USS Solomons, the carrier which saw Training 49 disappear off radar, is also available. I've done the logbooks to four ships in my time, and the Navy demands accuracy and attention to detail, as they are legal documents. I don't like what is transcribed as coming from Taylor that is in this article, and I know it comes from the Navy brief supplied by the Naval Historical Center; some of the transcriptions could also have come from any one of the Triangle books, and we all know how accurate they were, which isn't saying much. We can get into a lot of detail for this article. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 18:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

== Question re Chain of Command ==

I have no knowledge of this topic other than what's in the article, but it raised an obvious question. The sequence of events, and the radio chatter described, strongly points to the conclusion that the students knew what they should do, but were reluctant to challenge the instructor or break formation and fly west. The article obviously suggests this as a conclusion without ever quite joining the dots. It seems this should be more directly tackled: did the enquiry, for example, form a view as to whether a reluctance to challenge the flight leader had contributed to the deaths? Or would the navy just bot go down that road? (ie suggesting that in some circumstances the chain of command should be challenged). Just wondering - at the moment it seems the article merely alludes to something that would be better tackled head on.--[[User:Cinephobia|Cinephobia]] 00:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

:In the Navy, and the other branches of the military, personnel of all ranks are sworn to obey all lawful orders from their superiors. Very rarely is an unlawful order given, and even then the rank and file is so ingrained with discipline and following orders that unlawful orders are rarely disobeyed. In this case, you have to remember that there was one individual piloting an aircraft with more than 2,500 hours of flying time, and one individual with proven combat experience: Lt Taylor. None of the others, faced with that one obvious fact, dared to peel off on their own. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 05:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC) 

::Carajou is correct, re: lawful orders, etc. One problem with Flight 19 is the students, far as I can tell, only knew Taylor as an "instructor, with combat experience". It is unlikely they were aware he had a 'habit' (for lack of better term, here) of getting lost and had ditched planes before. If they had known that, its far more likely one of students(who are officers themselves) would have taken initiative and broken formation. Note the names/ranks in the article - there are two USMC Captains (grade O-3). Thats equal to a Navy Lt (Taylor). A young 2Lt or Lt(jg) would be even less likely to question the instructor. And it sounds like there was radio discussion/argument over the options - the Marines at least would know basic map reading and compass use... ''But'', another problem is the timing: Once you've gone too far astray, the window of opportunity to correct is permanently lost, no matter what you decide, due to fuel. And thats the part the trainees would have no experience in dealing with...My guess is Taylor became disoriented after the practice bombing run. Sad situation, all around... (PS - notice the map of "Navigation Problem 1". It does not appear to be terribly difficult. Anyone have any info on how new the trainees were? In my experience - Army, using map/compass on land nav - the biggest problem is soldiers not ''trusting'' the compass - in the case of a flyer, I'm told that translates to not trusting his instruments. Thats when you start hearing things like "my compass isn't working", things don't "look right", etc). Sorry for the long post.... [[User:Engr105th|Engr105th]] 20:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it true that a nurse (Margaret Wheeler)at the naval station claimed one of the flyers (LtJG Edward Meehan) did indeed break off, spotted a huge, "blue-green" (his description) whirlwind in the clouds, reported this, and was told he didnt see anything; actually made it back to the naval base and was hospitalized for "mental exhaustion"? Also that he was confined for over 3 months, never saw his friends or family (who apparently were never told he survived), and after being discharged was never seen again? Is there anything to support that? I can't find it!

:No, it's not true. It's a later invention by someone wishing to add to the Triangle stories. Navy records accounted for all the aircraft in-flight and on the ground that day, and the only ones missing were the five in Flight 19 from Ft Lauderdale, and the Mariner from Banana River NAS. In fact, the Triangle stories really got off the ground in the early 1970s with a slew of books on the subject, and not one of them mentions Wheeler or Meehan. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 01:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:There's also a curious little ditty about the one who got sick and decided to stay off the flight. According to Richard Winer in ''The Devil's Triangle'' it was Cpl Allan Kosnar; according to Adi-Kent Thomas Jeffrey in ''The Bermuda Triangle'' it was a man named Eagle Boloton. Someone's right, or someone's wrong...or both are wrong. The reason both skip the flight is based on premonition, which adds an additional aura of mystery to that aura of mystery that these writers have spun into the subject. [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 07:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

::I've seen the Corporal Allan Kosnar claim before but not the "Eagle Boloton" one. Unfortunately what references are available doesn't show that there was supposed to be a Corporal Allan Kosnar to fly on Fight 19 that day.--[[Special:Contributions/67.16.87.47|67.16.87.47]] ([[User talk:67.16.87.47|talk]]) 06:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

==== Added rendering of FT-28 ====

I'm sorry I haven't noted this earlier, the image went up a few days ago. I also want to agree with what [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] said above: ''...faced with that one obvious fact, dared to peel off on their own.'' This is exactly what happened, the trainees were afraid of getting in trouble if they had broken off from him. (Had they known he got lost a couple of times in the Pacific they may not have followed him so long). I think they thought Taylor would find his way back before they ran out of fuel and didn't want to explain why they disobeyed his orders. By the time they realized how lost he was it was too late for them to make it back to base. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 20:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

=="Summer of 2006"?==
One of the problems with editing of any article on Wikipedia is that there is always someone who has to feel they must add a bit of info, but without elaboration or supporting content. For example, the "Mission" block of this article was changed at the end to state that nothing more was heard from Flight 19 until the ''summer of 2006''. And that's it.

Just what exactly was referenced for the "summer of 2006"? Did anyone from Flight 19 return a phone call last summer? Did anyone from Flight 19 walk into a Wal-Mart and buy kitchen towels? Was a wing removed from one of the planes and made into a surfboard for someone in Miami Beach? Pardon my sarcasm, but this is another example, not of vandalism, but of an individual who made something up and thought it be a good idea to express his own importance in adding that non-sensical line rather than stressing the importance of the article itself and backing it up with the required info which could have shead some light on what he thought happened with Flight 19 in the "summer of 2006". Give us all a break! [[User:Carajou|Carajou]] 17:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:Someone came up with a theory, is what is being claimed. Unfortunately, the juicy details of what these ground-breaking facts are remain shrouded in someone's mind, and unavailable to us at present. That said...you're absolutely right, and its inclusion in the work is basically pointless. --[[User:Chr.K.|Chr.K.]] 07:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

== [[Thunderbirds]] ==

On the surface the comparison seems sound, two separate incidents where wingmen followed the leader to death in formation. The problem is, that when flying formation the wingmen concentrate on staying as close to their leader as directed which is easier siad than done anyway. Flight 19 was probably in a loose formation, meaning a good distance apart because there is no need to be in tight (close) formation on a training mission. The Thunderbirds (and [[Blue Angels]], and really any aerial demonstration team) fly REALLY tight formation. It's incredibly difficult and to get an idea, imagine having to tailgate a car at times by less than a foot around a race track at 150 mph. Then imagine having to do it going 420 mph in a climbing loop. Here are a couple of pictures to give you an idea what I mean:[[Image:Usaftbirds.jpg|thumb|diamond formation]][[Image:ThunderbirdsLangley 2007002.jpg|thumb|tight formation]]. The wingmen would've simply not had enough time to realize and do anything about the fact that the lead aircraft wasn't going to pull up.

Flight 19 happened over a period of hours, at any given minute they could have broken off from Taylor. The Thunderbirds didn't have that luxury. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 10:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

==Flight 19==
(Moved from my talk page)
If you insist that specific details of the PBM should be included in the lead -- not forgetting that the death toll from that aircraft '''is already mentioned in the lead''' - then I will insist that all other pertinent details are included as well, such as the ship etc. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 09:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

:I'm not sure that the info about it you want to include would be appropriate for the lead section, if it were true that all pertinent info should be included about anything mentioned in the lead then more info about flight 19 should be in it too (The HF/DF fix, FT-74, etc.). The BuNo name should be in the lead though, since there is a section devoted to it. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 20:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

== Flew Off to Mars ==

"flew off to Mars" Maybe this incident is connected to other unexplaiable ones such as the one in Aurora Texas [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_Texas_UFO_Incident] —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/65.41.155.8|65.41.155.8]] ([[User talk:65.41.155.8|talk]]) 22:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC) 

:No it isn't, because there is nothing unexplainable about the loss of Flight 19. It was pilot disorientation, plain and simple. There is no evidence that the pilots saw, heard, or experienced anything unusual. [[User:Logicman1966|Logicman1966]] 00:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

==What the hell?==
What were you thinking with your recent edits to [[Flight 19]]? I reverted them because they are unhelpful. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 06:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

:Issues with articles should really be discussed on that article's talk page. Which is where I'm moving this thread from my talk page.

:Would you please read [[Wikipedia:Lead section]] and explain how mentioning important aspects of the article in the lead section is unhelpful? {{quote|The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any.}} [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 08:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
::I would suggest you get a grip on reality. The existing intro admirably met requirements. Had all following text somehow been excised, that intro would still have given a fair precis of the story. Your amended intro fell far short of encapsulating the story, and included info that didn't need to be mentioned until later. Also, it was poorly written. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 08:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
:::'''Furthermore''' -- do not state your POV in the article that the OIC suffered from "confusion" or "irrational fears". The ref makes absolutely no mention of it. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 08:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
''also from my talk page,''
::Maybe. But I think its needs stating here as well -- do not state your POV that the OIC suffered from "confusion" or "irrational fears". The ref makes absolutely no mention of it. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 08:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

:Actually it does,{{quotation|Later, when asked to switch to 3000 kc, the search and rescue frequency, FT-28 called: "I cannot switch frequencies. I must keep my planes intact."...We now know that FT-28 took the lead sometime after the turn north on the second leg, thinking that his students were on a wrong heading. We know that FT-28 would not switch to the emergency radio frequency for fear of losing contact with his flight.}}
:Let's assume that was a rational fear, losing contact with the other members of his flight who are already in visual range flying in formation in order to get better reception with the people he was asking to help him. That's not a disaster, since the ground controllers could talk him home and the students would just follow. We also know he pretty much ignored the students and others he spoke with on the radio, because he'd roger a transmission and then not do what he was agreeing to.

:In response to your '''Furthermore''' assertions; Taylor thought he was in the Florida Keys, he was really over the Bahamas. This shows confusion over his position. What would you call it? What would you call a fear of losing contact with planes in visual range? Besides it's not merely my POV, more specific discussions of Taylor's irrational fears and confusion are included in: [http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/nakedscience/episodes.html Naked Science] a National Geographic series, in the episode Bermuda Triangle. I just forgot to include it before. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 21:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

=== Previous lead ===
The previous version was hardly admirable; [[WP:LEAD]] says: ''The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any.''
* It did not mention Navigation Problem No. 1
* It did not mention that the OIC led the students off course
**Instead it just said flight 19 was disoriented implying that all of them were, when at least two wanted to fly west because they knew their real position. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 21:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

==Successful [[Wikipedia:Good articles|good article]] nomination==
I am glad to report that this article nomination for [[WP:GA|good article]] status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of October 19, 2007, compares against the [[Wikipedia:What is a good article?|six good article criteria]]:

:'''1. Well written?:''' A well written article, much effort and thought has gone into it
:'''2. Factually accurate?:''' Backed up by verifiable references
:'''3. Broad in coverage?:''' The article contains all the relevant details associated with the topic
:'''4. Neutral point of view?:''' This article has a NPOV
:'''5. Article stability?''' No Edit wars or noticeable conflicts involved with this content
:'''6. Images?:''' The images compliment the article well and contain a useful amount of information on their own

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to [[Wikipedia:Good article reassessment|Good article reassessment]]. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.
— [[User:Jdrewitt|Jdrewitt]] 12:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

:Thank you very much, I guess we'll have to find a way to make it an A class or dare I say, [[WP:FA]] someday. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 05:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

== The missing planes................ ==

What if the crew for flight 19 flew the wrong planes? I mean, if they found 5 planes about 1/2 mile of each other, then surely it has to be them, because how else did they get there?--[[User:71.116.25.134|71.116.25.134]] 20:27, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

:There are, as hard to believe as it might be, a couple of ways Avengers could end up in the drink off the Florida coast. During the war [[Naval Air Station Fort Lauderdale|NAS Ft. Lauderdale]] was a huge training base for Avengers, more than a few were lost over the course of WWII due to various accidents and student errors. Then, in what seems like a minor historical tragedy to me, the Navy disposed of dozens of old Avengers (and other types) after the war by simply dumping them offshore of their bases. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 22:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Kindly note that PORT EVERGLADES is the name of Ft. Lauderdale's port and was the name of the Navy facility there. PORT EVERGLADES was the name of the N.A.S. that is now Ft. Lauderdale's airport. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Southjerseymichigan|Southjerseymichigan]] ([[User talk:Southjerseymichigan|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Southjerseymichigan|contribs]]) 16:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC) 

==14?==
<s>IONO if it has been discussed before: Why 14 crewmembers? The TBM had a crew of 3 (pilot, turret gunner, radioman/bombardier/bellygunner). So one plane must have been missing a crewmember - presumably Taylor's flew sans turret gunner (it needed a radioman after all). Any hard data on that?</s> [[User:Dysmorodrepanis|Dysmorodrepanis]] ([[User talk:Dysmorodrepanis|talk]]) 01:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

==VTB==
On a couple of occasions the article mentions "VTB-type aircraft", which is linked to [[torpedo bomber]] and referenced with a National Geographic article. However, neither [[torpedo bomber]] nor the reference explain what "VTB" means. I assume this is US Navy jargon; it needs explanation. -[[User:Ashley Pomeroy|Ashley Pomeroy]] ([[User talk:Ashley Pomeroy|talk]]) 12:34, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Found after a quick search this site http://www.history.navy.mil/books/OPNAV20-P1000/index.html which may help. Generally speaking though, military abbreviations are constructed in such a way so that people/places/things are easily identifible in terms of "what it is" and "what it does" to the observer. After looking through the pages I can see that "VTB" is the result of a couple of abbreviations put together. So, from that site:
V = Heavier-than-air Aircraft
T = First letter in the Navy aircraft designation, indicating a torpedo plane
B = First letter in the Navy aircraft designation, indicating a bomber plane
...or more likely
VT = Torpedo plane + B = Bomber plane == Torpedo Bomber Plane.
Also, just to remind you that you're dealing with a large bureaucratic orginisation that likes talking in double-dutch - "VBT" means (Bombing, torpedo plane) as well as "T" meaning
(Trainer Aircraft).[[User:Noctris|Noctris]] ([[User talk:Noctris|talk]]) 10:39, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

==Bermuda Triangle Section / "popular story"==
In the section headed "The Bermuda Triangle" that features the news article that sets out the "popular story", is it possible to get some more detail about what the claims in this story were based on, if anything? If the author was basing his claims on even spurious or disputed documents or sources, can this be mentioned? At the moment it's unclear if this article (including the quotes about "white water" etc) is based on some accepted evidence, disputed evidence, or if it's entirely a creation of the author's imagination. (Obviously if there's different viewpoints about this that could also be mentioned.) Just speaking as someone who doesn't edit Wikipedia who came to this article to read it, it's a little confusing.
[[User:DustFormsWords|DustFormsWords]] —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment was added at 03:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC). 

:The white water reference supposedly come from Allen W. Eckert (April 1962). "The Lost Patrol". ''American Legion''. In the "The Case of the Bermuda Triangle". NOVA/Horizon. PBS. 1976-06-27 Kusche said he corresponded with Eckert and Eckert could not longer remember where he got the reference and there was no indication where where it might have come from. Unless something has come up in the 33 years since it was filmed Kusche's statement about that being as far back as the traditional story about Flight 19 can be traced still stands.--[[User:BruceGrubb|BruceGrubb]] ([[User talk:BruceGrubb|talk]]) 02:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

==Charles Carroll Taylor merger proposal==

The [[Charles Carroll Taylor]] article contains two sections: "Military Background" and "Flight 19". The latter duplicates what is already here; the former should be merged into this article, per [[WP:BIO#People notable only for one event]]. One possibility would be a single new paragraph within the existing "The men of Flight 19 and PBM-5 BuNo 59225" section. Any objections or alternative suggestions? [[Special:Contributions/124.157.250.127|124.157.250.127]] ([[User talk:124.157.250.127|talk]]) 04:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

:I've created a new [[Flight 19#Charles Carroll Taylor]] section, moved a small amount of content to there from the "Authorized overwater navigation training flight" section, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flight_19&diff=prev&oldid=255854225] and then synched it with [[Charles Carroll Taylor#Military background]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flight_19&diff=255855876&oldid=255854225]. I don't think [[Charles Carroll Taylor]] now has any content that isn't already here. [[Special:Contributions/66.152.166.101|66.152.166.101]] ([[User talk:66.152.166.101|talk]]) 16:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

::Now merged & redirected. [[Special:Contributions/66.152.166.101|66.152.166.101]] ([[User talk:66.152.166.101|talk]]) 17:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

==Location==

Has anyone noticed the part on this page where it says the site is off the coast of florida, they can't be talking about the site of the wreck because from what I hear, they have NO idea where '19 ended up

==CGI Images accurate?==
I'm no expert, but I don't ever recall seeing a TBM/TBF Avenger with twin machine guns in the rear turret, just curious how accurate that is and if it needs to be corrected?
[[User:Limitedexpresstrain|Limitedexpresstrain]] ([[User talk:Limitedexpresstrain|talk]]) 19:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

No TBF or TBM Avenger ever had twin guns of any sort in its rear turret, because that Grumman-designed turret was of an unusual sort: the .50-caliber gun was mounted at the left of the turret, and the gunner sat to the right of it, with the main body (the receiver) of the gun next to his left ear. The gunner did not sit "behind" the guns, as was common in all other power-operated turrets during WWII, he sat alongside it. To have added a second gun to the mount would have required eliminating the gunner.[[Special:Contributions/173.62.25.244|173.62.25.244]] ([[User talk:173.62.25.244|talk]]) 19:06, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

== Wrong Maps ==

A T.V. Documentary on this incident stated that the pilots had taken the wrong Maps. As an American expert interviewed on the Documentary said; 'It all falls into place when you consider the radio broadcasts. When the pilot was saying; 'everything looks different' 'the Sea looks strange' etc. If you take those comments in the context of a man looking at maps that are the wrong maps for that area everything would look strange'. The 'increasing panic of the training pilot' also falls into place when you consider the 'wrong maps explanation'. He is out at Sea with only his compass to fly by. Even an expert flyer like Amelia Earhart got lost at sea with a skilled navigator on board 8 years before Flight 19. Also Amy Johnson, the British woman Pilot vanished, presumed drowned in the river Thames 3 years before Flight 19 after her Plane crashed into the River.[[User:Johnwrd|Johnwrd]] ([[User talk:Johnwrd|talk]]) 21:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

== 3 Megabytes Image! ==

OMG, just who decided to put on this page a 3 MB image of a spinning plane without any warning? Please remember that some people still pay $250/GB for the Internet. --[[User:Anthony Ivanoff|Anthony Ivanoff]] ([[User talk:Anthony Ivanoff|talk]]) 19:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

:Agreed. I don't think the animated image ([[:File:Ft28animation.gif]]) is appropriate. Too big, too slow to load, too distracting.
:Likewise [[:File:Tbf-19-5.png]] - when it was a CGI showing five aircraft in formation it was at best redundant and questionable, but it now shows SIX aircraft in formation - it's extremely artificial, and it's misleading, confusing, and completely unnecessary. Sorry, but I think it just looks silly.
:I suggest both these images be removed (I already removed the latter [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flight_19&diff=295905092&oldid=295889969 2009-06-12] with an explanation in the edit summary, but it was reinstated without explanation [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flight_19&diff=next&oldid=295905092 2009-06-19]). [[Special:Contributions/58.8.15.76|58.8.15.76]] ([[User talk:58.8.15.76|talk]]) 20:03, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
::I left the following message on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAnyeverybody&action=historysubmit&diff=360172487&oldid=359631695 Anyeverybody's talk page] -- ''I have 2.4 ghz intel core with 2gb ram, and I am afraid after several tests of your animation it does not work satisfactorily for me. When it eventually does start, it progresses extremely slowly, often stops for long periods (at different points in the cycle), and on the last occasion I tried it never completed the cycle. Just sitting their, unmoving. At one stage it froze so that I couldn't revert back to the article page to quit the browser. This animation needs to be removed IMMHO.'' Maybe he will remove it. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 23:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
::I have removed the animation and replaced it with the image from the TBF Avenger page. The conversation which led me to this action is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anyeverybody#Flight_19_animation here]. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 08:24, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

:::And since we're not talking about avengers in general I have removed the generic image of two random avengers with an illustration of the actual avengers involved. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] there's actually a [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Flight_19 Flight 19 category at the commons].
:::[[Special:Contributions/58.8.15.76|58.8.15.76]] the reasons you cited for removing [[:File:Tbf-19-5.png]], which I've numbered... ''1.shows SIX aircraft in formation - 2. it's extremely artificial, and 3. it's misleading, 4. confusing, and 5. completely unnecessary'' can be easily rebutted: 1. There were six aircraft involved, 5 TBMs in the flight (FT-28, FT-36, FT-81, FT-3 AND FT-117) plus the 1 PBM which blew up looking for them. 2. Of course it's artificial, it's an illustration and all illustrations are artificial (compared to a photo or video). 3. It's not misleading, this is what the airplanes looked like - overall [http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=15042 FS 15042 aka Glossy Sea Blue] with aircraft ID#s on the tails as well as both sides of the wings. 4. I understand why it might be confusing, you didn't seem to know how many aircraft were involved but hopefully my first rebuttal cleared away any confusion. 5. Illustrating the subject involved is most certainly NOT unnecessary and you don't have to take my word for it: [[WP:IUP#User-created images]]. [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]]([[User:Anynobody/?|?]]) 01:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::(''Copy entire relevancies from Anynobody's page to give continuity)''.
::::I'm confused, did you actually read my response? It pauses and is slow in rotating on purpose, constant fast spinning seems to irritate most people. The problems you describe, ''it progresses extremely slowly, often stops for long periods (at different points in the cycle), and on the last occasion I tried it never completed the cycle.'' sound like a slow internet connection - My computer is ''slower'' than yours (2.33), CPU and RAM are actually irrelevant to how fast a gif loads from the internet. [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]]([[User:Anynobody/?|?]]) 01:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::Yes, I did read your response. I know what you were saying, but the effect you wanted and what I am seeing are two different things. It doesn't take 33 secs to complete the animation cycle, it takes much much longer, and it occasionally freezes so that I cannot return to the article and have to quite the browser. I have not experienced this problem with other animations on the net. Have just tested my internet line speed which is 952 KB/ps. No, not the fastest in the world, but not the slowest either. There would be zillions of people with slower broadband, so we shouldn't be displaying an animation that is useless to them. Why an animation anyway? What's wrong with a general photo? The article is about an event, not how an aircraft looks from all angles. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 02:57, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I didn't say your connection was too slow, I said it sounds like there was/is some kind of problem with it when the animation stops loading or freezes. There is also a problem with Wikimedia, the animation is now a new version I've uploaded - when I view it in Animation shop or Quicktime it's just over 9 seconds long. Wikimedia says it's that long but takes longer than 9 seconds to play it. (Seriously download the gif and watch it in Quicktime if you don't believe me, the fact that the animation goes longer than it's run time is not a problem I can do anything about.)Why an animation, I don't mean to sound sarcastic but it conveys more than a photo when depicting an aircraft. Why not a photo? There are no good, free photos out there (at least that I've seen). [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]]([[User:Anynobody/?|?]]) 04:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::The fact is the article has an animation which does not work properly for '''everybody'''. How '''you''' see it in Animation or Quicktime is totally irrelevant. You say ''"the fact that the animation goes longer than it's run time is not a problem I can do anything about."'' I can, and that is why I am replacing it in the article with one of those "good free photos" which you claim are not out there. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 08:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
''I am replacing it in the article with one of those "good free photos" which you claim are not out there.'' I was talking about free photos of the ''flight 19'' aircraft, not avengers in general duh! The photo you chose was of two circa 1942-43 TBFs in early 2 tone camouflage, which is fine for the avenger article but was not the specific avengers at NAS Ft. Lauderdale in December 1945 which the article discusses. [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]]([[User:Anynobody/?|?]]) 01:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
:Excuse me. You have '''not''' replaced it with a photo of Flight 19 at all. You have replaced it with an "artist's" drawing. Wonder what gave him the idea that FT-36 was piloted by a midget. Perhaps [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grumman_TBM-3E_Avenger_1.jpg '''this''' would give him an idea of scale].[[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 01:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
::[[User:Moriori|Moriori]], like I said on my talk page, there are no good free photos of the Flight 19 aircraft, I'd be happy if we found one. Until one is found the best we can do is an illustration. (I'm sorry you don't like it.) [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]]([[User:Anynobody/?|?]]) 02:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Lets keep this on the article's talk page.... [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]]([[User:Anynobody/?|?]]) 02:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Sure, I'll transfer what isn't already there. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 02:38, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

== ALPENGLOW: FLIGHT 19 BORE FIVE OF ITS HAPLESS TBM AVENGER CREWS MISSING ==

Flight 19 represents five hapless crews of an atmospheric phenomenon called "Alpenglow". Alpenglow is when the western sunset just before and post-the winter solstice from December through January, reflects over cloud covers (broken or solid) horizon-to-horizon west to east.

On January 12, 2008 - I'll never forget it because it happened on my 61st birthday - it was dusk near dark traveling south toward the Mary River just across the Florida-Georgia state line with an unobservable oceanic surf to my left just over the inland dunes. Immediately north of the narrow Mary River Bridge on Route 17, my girlfriend Annie dozed off in the passenger seat on this long coastal drive as we were on our way to visit friends in Vero Beach, Florida.

Me being perfectly aware and crisply alert with my accelerated line of travel, Annie suddenly awoke startled to see the crimson reflection of the western sunset cast across the eastern sky's horizon that even had a vaguely defined orb of light concentrated against it whence she exclaimed, ''"Babe! Babe! How's come we're going back north!''

Smiling to myself I didn't know the word for it then, but what Annie was observing hit me with an impact that curiously brought to mind the disappearance of Flight 19, an easy goof when you think about it that must have run out of gas going far out to sea making the same erroneous observation as my dear Annie, only these poor lads were irretrievably committed to water rather than asphalt. It wasn't like a two-person crew in a Jeep Liberty could easily dismount on the shoulder as one sticks out their thumb with a frustrated look and the other with a jerry can held in their hand. I'm sure these guys who thought they were navigating north to southwest were actually navigating south to north east and out of radio range with Fort Lauderdale where they went down. ''Bet any money that's where five TBM Avengers with matching serial numbers can be found!''

When we arrived back in Pittsburgh from our visit to Florida, I got online and started pecking out data in my computer's web browser using key words and phrases such as "Sunset reflection on eastern skies", etc., whereas I finally came up with the term "Alpenglow" which fit exactly and explained in precise detail what a startled Annie observed from sleep disorientation but what I was steadily acclimated to, aware of, and crisply alert to with my surroundings and accelerated line of travel. I made several calls and even sent detailed graphics through PDF document emails explaining our experience to the chief curator of the Naval Air Museum at the Fort Lauderdale Naval Air Station, whereas he wound up ignoring me as though I were some kind of nut case telling me to "shut up..."

...Whereas, I rest my nut case here simply saying ''screw 'em''! I know what happened.

[[Special:Contributions/72.185.1.17|72.185.1.17]] ([[User talk:72.185.1.17|talk]]) 17:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)Carlo Rossi
Haines City, FL[[Special:Contributions/72.185.1.17|72.185.1.17]] ([[User talk:72.185.1.17|talk]]) 17:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

==Robert F. Fox or Robert F. Cox?==
What is the right name. The numerous sources contradict each other on this issue... [[Special:Contributions/109.66.25.117|109.66.25.117]] ([[User talk:109.66.25.117|talk]]) 00:56, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
:It's Robert Fox, see [http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/Flight19/index.html point 23] of the findings. [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]]([[User:Anynobody/?|?]]) 01:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

== Intended Route ==

Not having done much editing, I'd like to run this up the flagpole before changing the description of the route:

{{Quotation|After take off they would fly almost due east for 56 miles (90 km) until reaching Hen and Chickens Shoals where low level bombing practice was planned. The flight was then supposed to continue east another 67 miles (108 km) before turning onto a course of 346 for 73 miles (117 km), in the process over-flying Grand Bahama Island. Flight 19's last scheduled turn was to a course of 241 degrees to fly 120 miles (193 km) back to NAS Ft. Lauderdale.[2]}}

Based on the [http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/Flight19/index.html Navy report excerpt]at the Ibiblio site, my ideas are 1) change "almost due east" to "course 091 degrees true", 2) change "back to NAS" to "then returning to NAS", 3) recompute all the km values on the assumption that the mileages in the Navy report are nautical miles, not statute miles.

The subtle rewording in #2 is because I've discovered that the route, as given in the Navy report, does not form a closed figure. It fails to close by 10.6 nautical miles, or 3.4% of the total distance. However, on careful reading the report doesn't actually say the last leg takes you back to the field. I believe the article should should be equally ambiguous.

Why plan a route which intentionally misses the destination? It's an old navigation trick for making landfall. If you aim right at the field, you're not sure which way to turn if it's not in sight upon reaching the Florida coast. But if you aim to definitely miss to the south, all you have to do is hit the coast and follow it north.

Incidentally, it was my attempts to re-fly the route in Microsoft Flight Simulator that revealed the misclosure. No matter what pains I took, such as using the autopilot, and even allowing for the turn radius of the plane, I kept missing the field by miles. At first I thought the sim was inaccurate. Then I did the math, which agreed with the sim! Paul S. Hirose 21:28, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
:Yes. An [[exercise]] involving three legs, but a [[flight]] involving four. I've tried to explain it better. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 03:55, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
::I've made further changes to accurately indicate what was planned. I have also removed the miles-to-kilometres conversions because almost certainly these guys were flying nautical miles. Even if we can't be certain of that, we are less certain that navy aviators would use imperial miles. I've changed the caption as well. Will see who the creator was and ask for amendments. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 01:37, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad to see an improvement to the route description. However, it now uses the words "heading" and "course" as if they were interchangeable. The correct word is "course". A "heading" is the direction the plane is pointed. In preflight planning, pilots use the latest wind forecasts to calculate the heading needed to make good the desired course on each leg. The Flight 19 crews may filed these before departure, but as far as I've seen, all we know are the courses. In addition, it should be made clear that the courses are true, not magnetic. I don't think it's necessary to label each course "(T)" as in the Navy report. Simply call the first one "091 true" and let the reader assume the rest are likewise true.

Although I brought up the possibility, I wouldn't be so bold as to say "the actual flight should have flown four" [legs]. I predict some argument on that point!

Last year, in a discussion group, I posted [http://www.fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx?i=109788&y=200909 this message] noting the route's failure to form a closed figure. It has considerable detail, more than would be appropriate here. And in [http://www.fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx?i=110815&y=200911 another message] I speculate that the course normally quoted for the first leg, 091 true, is wrong. If the chart image (go there via a link in my message) is genuine, it's obvious the first course can't possibly be 091 true. Paul S. Hirose 21:22, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

== "Enduring mysteries?" ==

There is a real mismatch between the article's lead section and the content of the main body. The main body is a pretty straightforward account of a navigation training flight getting lost, running out of fuel, and crashing -- exact details unsure, but basically just an ordinary tragic mishap. The lede describes "trouble of an unknown nation" "complete confusion and irrational fears," "enduring mysteries," and cites various pulp magazines and paranormal enthusiasts.

Instead of promoting this "enduring mystery" that isn't actually very mysterious, shouldn't the lede say something like, "Flight 19 was a training flight that got lost, ran out of fuel, and crashed. Then the story got roped up into UFO enthusiasm circles?" [[User:EvanHarper|EvanHarper]] ([[User talk:EvanHarper|talk]]) 03:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

==Ref needs fixing==
The NAN73 reference cannot be accessed. A great deal of this article depends heavily on that reference. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 02:44, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

==Green mist, white water?==
I remember when I first heard of this incident, that the instructor reported "green mist" or maybe fog, that sea (or maybe land or sky) was "not as it should be" and finally the last thing he transmitted was "we're entering white water!". Well non of this appears here, or is even mention in any of the online reffernces that this article cites. Now my source for this was some Bermuda Triangle show I saw in the 90s and I'm pretty sure given the dress of Host segments that the show could have been nearly 20 years old then. My take is that this story got imbelished sometime in the 70s. Is there any known sources about this incident that have stuff like "green fog" and what not? I might consider writing a section on liberties taken or something.[[Special:Contributions/67.190.86.13|67.190.86.13]] ([[User talk:67.190.86.13|talk]]) 05:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
:A section on "liberties taken" is appropriate if you provide reliable sources. - [[User:SummerPhD|SummerPhD]] ([[User talk:SummerPhD|talk]]) 14:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
::As I stated some time ago the white water reference supposedly come from Allen W. Eckert's "The Mystery of the Lost Patrol" in the April 1962 issue of ''American Legion'' magazine. In the "The Case of the Bermuda Triangle". NOVA/Horizon. PBS. 1976-06-27 Kusche said he corresponded with Eckert and Eckert could not longer remember where he got the reference and there was no indication where where it might have come from. Unless something has come up in the 33 years since it was filmed Kusche's statement about that being as far back as the traditional story about Flight 19 can be traced still stands.
:::As for the green mist that is relatively new though there are accounts of a green haze in one of Berlitz's books but that was regarding a supposed survivor and not Flight 19.--[[User:BruceGrubb|BruceGrubb]] ([[User talk:BruceGrubb|talk]]) 19:17, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

== Illustration needs replacing/amendment ==

The map image leaves a lot to be desired. I would have taken this up with its creator [[User:Anyeverybody]] but he may have left Wiki. If anyone can suggest someone else who is good with creating such images, please tell me and I will contact him/her.

In the mean time, I will make some changes to the existing caption.[[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 22:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

== Okeefenoke ==

I also saw the programme which suggested flight 19 ended up in a swamp. As pointed out there were the usual good vague details.

There could be a simple answer to this suggestion. After the flight took off nobody saw it again. Had the flight actually crossed land again, somebody, somewhere, would have seen something. A flight of aeroplanes, even flying low, is something that can be seen from a great distance.[[User:AT Kunene|AT Kunene]] ([[User talk:AT Kunene|talk]]) 21:05, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

That guy Gian Quasar brought that up some years ago on a TV show, and a few days ago (January, 2014) on another show. I would ask how they could miss the lights of Jacksonville (FL), a good sized city even back then with a large Navy yard. I flew a light plane in the West Palm Beach area 1971-72 and from there, at 1,000 feet, granted, in good weather, you could easily see the upper Keys. Fort Lauderdale would be even closer and you should be able to see more. also, if flying over the Keys, you would see the Overseas Highway/what remains of the Overseas Railroad connecting them. Taylor was used to flying out of Key West and, if flying over the Bahamas, should have noticed the lack of such a connection among the islands and hence should not have mistaken them for the Keys. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Southjerseymichigan|Southjerseymichigan]] ([[User talk:Southjerseymichigan|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Southjerseymichigan|contribs]]) 16:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC) 

== It's also been reported that "Taylor's last message was received at 7:04 pm." - History Channel, ''Decoding the Past - The Bermuda Triangle'' ==

I added the following to the article while watching the documentary on H2: '''(It's also been reported that Taylor's last message was received at 7:04 pm.) '''ref> History Channel, ''Decoding the Past - The Bermuda Triangle'' (SO1 Ep16, 2005) - Brad Watson, Miami [[Special:Contributions/71.196.11.183|71.196.11.183]] ([[User talk:71.196.11.183|talk]]) 13:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

== Bruce Gernon's electronic fog experience is very relevant to Flight 19 ==

Bruce Gernon's electronic fog experience is very relevant to Flight 19 imo. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzeJaGwVykw). The calculated speed of 2000mph is simply the speed of the lunar earth tide at this latitude. A dark matter 'rocking stone' embedded in the crust with a 2g graviton cone of influence could simply have flung the aircraft *and* surrounding pocket of air across the Florida Strait, causing the effects described. [[Special:Contributions/195.59.118.106|195.59.118.106]] ([[User talk:195.59.118.106|talk]]) 10:55, 2 April 2013 (UTC) Alan Lowey
:Absolute rubbish. Good God. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/50.111.1.232|50.111.1.232]] ([[User talk:50.111.1.232#top|talk]]) 03:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC) 

== Taylor ==

I've red , more than once, that Taylor at some point left the command to another pilot. And that the last recieved message was ''something'' like "It appears as we are on our way on to that white water". (a "white water" of which hadn't been mentioned before) [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 16:19, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
:And I've read, even more than twice, that people who read or hear something somewhere from someone, without knowing what, where and by whom, are not to be considered trustworthy. I say God Himself has kidnapped the pilots to the moon, and if you read this paragraph again, you can say that you've read ''this'' more than once. --[[Special:Contributions/146.60.149.33|146.60.149.33]] ([[User talk:146.60.149.33|talk]]) 00:37, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

== Reasons why Citation Needed for 5 aircraft disposed at sea ==

We are currently told:

They had been declared either unfit for maintenance/repair or obsolete and were simply disposed of at sea within 1.5 mi (2.4 km) of each other.[7]

[7]Dive to Bermuda Triangle (2004); telecast on The Science Channel, February 17, 2006.

However back in August 2009 ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flight_19&diff=309207252&oldid=307774489#cite_ref-dive_7-0 here]), the same source was being used to support two different stories:

In 1991, the wreckage of five Avengers was discovered off the coast of Florida, but engine serial numbers revealed they were not Flight 19. They had crashed on five different days "all within a mile and a half [~2.4 km] of each other."[7] Records showed training accidents between 1942 and 1946 accounted for the loss of 94 aviation personnel from NAS Fort Lauderdale (including Flight 19.)[8] In 1992, another expedition located scattered debris on the ocean floor, but nothing could be identified. In the last decade, searchers have been expanding their area to include farther east, into the Atlantic Ocean. It has been determined through Navy records that the various discovered aircraft, including the group of five, were declared either unfit for maintenance/repair or obsolete, and simply disposed of at sea.[7]

[7]Dive to Bermuda Triangle (2004); telecast on The Science Channel, February 17, 2006.

Under the different title "[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007c68n The Bermuda Triangle: Beneath the Waves]", this source has been [http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007c68n/broadcasts re-broadcast] 7 times on BBC4 since December 28, 2013, most recently yesterday evening (when I viewed it, for the second time) and again early this morning. It was first first broadcast by BBC1 on Sunday March 14, 2004. It makes no mention of any Navy dumping, but describes the crashes in the same tiny area as a truly amazing fluke (incidentally, there would only have been 4 crashes, not 5, as it says one was a mid-air collision of two planes).

It describes the program as: Professor Bruce Denardo attempts to prove whether there is any truth behind the legend of the Bermuda Triangle, where many ships and planes have disappeared in mysterious circumstances. New investigation techniques reveal the truth behind the infamous disappearance of Flight 19. Graham Hawkes is also able to reveal, by using a state-of-the-art submarine, how five wrecks mysteriously wound up 730 feet down in the heart of the Bermuda Triangle.

It also tells us that the producer is Will Aslett. It is clearly the same program as our cited source [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0408692/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm Dive to Bermuda Triangle (2004)], as that is produced by Will Aslett in 2004, and includes Bruce Denardo and Graham Hawkes in the cast as themselves, and no other Bermuda Triangle work is attributed to [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3167953/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t9 Denardo], [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0370030/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t11 Hawkes], or [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1014000/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cr2 Aslett].

So clearly a proper citation is needed, and I will next be replacing the current citation with such a request. However I am leaving the existing text about being dumped by the Navy unchanged, due to the superficially plausible nature of the statement. If somebody wishes to re-insert the existing source the text needs to correctly reflect the source, and it needs to be re-phrased to comply with [[WP:EXTRAORDINARY]], which would mean somethng like:

In March 2004 (subsequently repeated in 2013 and 2014), the BBC documentary ''The Bermuda Triangle: Beneath the Waves'' concluded that all 5 planes had crashed on 4 different days (including one mid-air collision), ending on the seabed all within a mile and a half [~2.4 km] of each other, in what, according to the documentary, seemed to be an extraordinarily improbable coincidence.

(I should point out that even if the 'navy dumping' claim turns out to be incorrect speculation (as seems quite possible, given the apparent conflict with some of the details of the BBC claims, given the lack of any BBC correction 10 years later, and given their statutory obligation to 'educate,..., and inform'), it might still be the case that the BBC documentary is simply wrong in its claims of astonishing improbability, as there might be factors favouring a concentration of crashes, such as a nearby training target, or whatever, though that is of course just speculation on my part, and if the explanation is that simple it's a bit strange that the documentary never mentions it as a possibility). [[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 03:58, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
-------------------------------------------
Ouch! Things just got even messier. The following [http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/graham-hawkes-and-the-race-to-the-bottom-of-the-sea-20140114?page=3 extract] from Men's Journal suggests that nothing based on the claims of the above program is reliable, including how many planes are down there (on the other hand Hawkes may also have found Flight 19 as he now claims):
---------------------------------------------------
Soon Hawkes turned his attention to treasure hunting. The Scientific Search Project set out to find the wrecks of ships from the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries that had foundered in deep water, aiming to salvage their cargo while preserving their historical value. It marked an abrupt ideological break from Earle, who dreamed of unlocking the secrets of the world's oceans to preserve them for humanity, not to make a fortune. Using statistics suggesting that for 300 years, 10 percent of global shipping had been lost at sea, and a system he'd devised that made it simple to find and survey what remained, Hawkes won Wall Street funding and set out into the Bahama Channel on a boat christened Deep See.
The Deep See found up to five wrecks a day, the remains of centuries of doomed vessels sunk in an area infamous for bad weather. "We found everything: planes, submarines, tankers . . . a sailboat lying on the bottom, on its side, with its sails up." They also, he says now, solved one of the most enduring riddles of the Bermuda Triangle. In May 1991, they discovered five Grumman Avenger fighter-bombers lying in a group on the ocean floor. At the time, the discovery caused a media frenzy. Hawkes was questioned by a dockside scrum of cameramen and interviewers who all wanted to know if the planes were those of Flight 19, which took off from Fort Lauderdale on a perfectly clear day in 1945 and vanished without a trace somewhere over the Atlantic – one of the legendary disappearances in the Bermuda Triangle. Then, as quickly as it had started, the sensation evaporated when Hawkes announced that further investigation revealed that the planes' tail numbers did not match those of the long-lost flight, implying that he believed the five planes must have crashed separately.
Hawkes has since changed his story. Now he says both he (because his investors didn't want to waste valuable time on an investigation) and the Pentagon (because they had more important things to worry about) had an interest in making the story go away. He admits that while he didn't find conclusive evidence that the planes were the same group that went missing in 1945, he consulted a statistician to establish the probability that they were not. "He said, 'You've got Flight 19,' " Hawkes says.
-------------------------------------------------
A partial transcript of the text of the (now unreliable) BBC documentary is available [http://livedash.ark.com/transcript/the_bermuda_triangle__beneath_the_waves/6630/TRAVP/Sunday_June_13_2010/332273/ here]. However it's a shortened edited version of the program that takes 57 minutes with ads (the BBC version is an hour without ads), so it omits the mid-air collision (if I am correct that they were claiming one, though I'm now doubting my memory - how would they know there was one?), and the guy describing how improbable the odds are supposed to be.

00:38:36 "Nav 23990-- " on the 9th october, 1943, ft-87, piloted by ensign george swint, was returning to fort lauderdale from a bombing run.
00:38:53 Onboard were airmen second class sam treese and j. lewulis.
00:38:59 , the engine suffered a catastrophic loss of fuel and ditched.
00:39:06 Swint and his crew survived.
00:39:10 Ft-87-- ..
00:39:20 Graham now knows how she got here.
00:39:23 Of the remaining four wrecks, graham could never definitively identify the downed avengers.
00:39:32 Despite the odds, they are just a random collection of accidents that came to rest in the same place 12 miles from home.

Despite the program's unreliability, given that nobody is claiming that the other planes were identified, there is not the slightest reason to believe our current unsourced claim that naval records can show that the 5 planes (if there even were 5 planes) were dumped there (although I guess it's possible that some planes were dumped there).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The following extract (taken from [http://half-dude.deviantart.com/art/Eulogy-for-the-Lost-434522207 here]) is of interest:

TBM Avenger FT-87: (top left)
Appearance: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCcWpm…
This was the first wreck looked at during the show, it was early on during segment where the crew lead by Oceanographer Graham Hawkes was searching for the legendary Flight 19. FT-87 was one of a cluster of 5 Avengers all wrecked in close proximity, naturally it was suspected to be of Flight 19. I don't think I'll ever forget seeing those close up shots of the cockpit underwater with the interior and pilots seat totally covered in algie and corroded, it was very haunting. During the segment they tried to find the bureau number for the plane which is the actual number unique to the plane that could identify it. Oddly enough, even thinking so as a little kid, the show just abruptly gives up after showing that they were having trouble finding the numbers.

It wasn't until a couple days ago when I had a really cool thing happen. I watched a relatively random documentary from the 2000s (<--- watch that part) which itself had a segment on flight 19. To my extreme surprise and boyish glee they made a return to ol' FT-87 in this new show! I know how weird it sounds, but it was almost like seeing an old friend from your childhood, I was even surprised to see the ol' boy looked just about exactly the same as I'd seen him back in 1996.. a real testament to the durability of those old planes. Graham Hawks was even around for it again this time, though funny enough by the sound of it he didn't even seem to remember having seen FT-87 before. XD Turns out the idiots back in the first show weren't even looking in the right place for the numbers! The numbers are on the tail which had snapped off apparently when FT-87 slammed on the ocean floor, but luckily it'd landed right there on FT-87's left wing, FT-87's true name turned out to be: NAV 23990 and from that they were able to dig up the accident report, here's a cliffnote version taken from the document shown on screen:

"LOST AT SEA - Oct 9th 1943 - Returning to Fort Lauderdale after bombing run
Crew -
George Swint III (pilot)
Slc Sam Treese
Slc J Lewulis

-Pilot was of the opinion that right main tank had plenty of gas in it for glide bombing maneuvers. When his engine cut, pilot had about 400-500 ft altitude and was traveling at 160 knots. He made new attempt to switch to another tank or to make use of the emergency fuel pump. Trouble Board believes the engine suffered a lack of fuel, and feels that the reaction of the pilot during the emergency was poor. He had time to switch to another tank and to make use of the emergency pump - an act which might have eliminated the loss of the plane.

Pilot's Note: I then gave my aircrewman the order to stand by for a crash landing. I made a belly landing on the water, and te plane stayed afloat a sufficient time to allow my aircrewman and me to escape."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The above is also backed up by the [http://www.joebaugher.com/navy_serials/thirdseries3.html following]:

US Navy and US Marine Corps BuNos

Third Series (21192 to 30146)

Last revised August 4, 2014
....

23857/24140 Grumman TBF-1 Avenger
....

23990 ditched at sea on flight from Fort Lauderdale, FL. Date?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Both the above suggest the only identified plane (FT 87 NAV 23990, a number clearly visible underwater in the otherwise unreliable BBC documentary) was lost at sea - so it's hard to believe our current claim that the navy dumped it at sea (although I guess that at least conceivably it's not too difficult for somebody to paint NAV 23990 on a piece of metal, drop it from your submersible onto one of the planes as its alleged broken-off tail, and then film it).

The problem is how to go about correcting our current text without violating [[WP:BLP]], etc, and that's something I don't feel competent to do, so I'd prefer to leave it to somebody else. [[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 06:34, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
:It turns out it was seemingly easier to fix than I expected. If anybody wants to restore the claim about navy dumping (which was mis-sourced, and seemingly conflicts with much else, as mentioned above), along with a 'citation needed' request, please feel free to do so, and please indicate in Talk how long you feel it should remain unsourced before being deleted. [[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 08:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
::I've decided to re-use the BBC citation as it is a reliable source when it shows Hawkes finding and identifying 23990, which seems relevant to his later claim that he probably found Flight19. I leave out the 'astronomical' odds bit, as it is not from the BBC voice-over but just the opinion of one member of the team with no stated statistical expertise, and it has been omitted from the partial transcript (they probably had to cut something to fit in the ads, so they probably cut that as dodgy stuff). I leave in their conclusion about a random collection of accidents, as once we realize that it's not the BBC saying the odds are astronomical, it ceases to be any kind of clear-cut case of [[WP:EXTRAORDINARY]]. Indeed we are not allowed claim that we are expert statisticians who know the BBC are wrong, and, though it's not all that relevant, I actually know enough about stats to suspect they just might be right for any number of possible reasons. So I'm including it as it appears to be the conclusion of a normally reliable source - but to be safe I cite it as their conclusion rather than as fact. If other editors are unhappy with this, they are of course free to try to improve it.[[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 14:03, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
:::In accordance with [[WP:IAR]], and because of the many complex issues raised above, I've decided to include as 2 notes some ways in which those BBC odds might be reduced, mentioning the fact that the dumping theory used to be here, and making the statements self-evidently true (and thus hopefully uncontroversial and thus not requiring supporting citations even if I didn't also have [[WP:IAR]] as justification) by preceding them by a qualifier such as 'It is obviously possible to speculate that..'. If other editors are unhappy with this, they are of course free to try to improve it.[[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 12:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

::::Generally it is quite easy to identify any aircraft wreck even if its BuNo or Serial Number is not available, as every major piece of equipment, engine(s), guns, etc., will each have a unique serial number that can be traced back to its fitment in that particular aeroplane. In many cases these serial numbers are affixed to the relevant parts by the outside suppliers, e.g., an undercarriage (landing gear) manufacturer will affix a data plate to each individual undercarriage unit made. The same for engines, guns, etc. These serial numbers are usually recorded in the aircraft manufacturer's records for each aircraft built. So if an aircraft wreck is found one only needs to find ''one'' serial number from ''any'' component to positively identify the aircraft. An interesting 1981 TV programme with details on this, here: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTpAXE4WIJM] — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2.24.215.177|2.24.215.177]] ([[User talk:2.24.215.177|talk]]) 19:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC) 

:::::Thanks, that's interesting (though I haven't been able to get your video to run for me). But diving to view and/or recover and closely examine plane parts costs money. In the case of the BBC's Phantom Five, they seemingly only used cameras that seemingly could only pick out rather large serial numbers, and once one plane was identified and found not to be part of Flight 19, I'd guess nobody's been interested in funding any further attempts to identify the others - or if they have, we seemingly haven't got a reliable source for it (so far anyway).[[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 07:31, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

== Formatting ==

At the bottom of the page, above the categories, are blue bars with all the Bermuda Triangle incidents. I'm viewing in Safari on ipad and the lower bar, and the items with it, is all out of whack, I can't tell if it goes off the side of the page but there do seem to be incidents missing. Also when I click the heading on the bar the incidents there seem different to what I can see listed here. [[Special:Contributions/86.134.83.50|86.134.83.50]] ([[User talk:86.134.83.50|talk]]) 22:03, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

== Update Reference 2 ==

The link to reference 2 is dead. I suggest
http://www.aviatorsdatabase.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Lost-Patrol.pdf — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2003:70:CF4C:DEE3:C890:450F:3F19:60EF|2003:70:CF4C:DEE3:C890:450F:3F19:60EF]] ([[User talk:2003:70:CF4C:DEE3:C890:450F:3F19:60EF|talk]]) 12:56, 13 October 2015 (UTC) 

:Replaced dead link with link above provided. - [[User:Kiraroshi1976|Kiraroshi1976]] ([[User talk:Kiraroshi1976|talk]]) 01:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

== References 15 and 16 ==

These two references currently read as follows:

<blockquote>'''15.''' It is obviously possible to speculate that various currently unknown or ignored factors might help to lower these odds, such as if all the crashes happened near a much frequented bomber training target, and/or the planes suffered from a design fault that tended to get triggered at roughly the same time after some particular bombing maneuver, and so on... It can be speculated that mid-air collisions in a busy airspace, such as near a bomber training target, might reduce the number of crashes needed to 4 or even 3 - the 2004 BBC documentary states that one of the planes may have lost its tail section in a documented mid-air collision in August 1944. 

'''16.''' It is obviously possible to speculate that odds would be lower if the unidentified planes had been declared either unfit for maintenance/repair or obsolete and were simply disposed of at sea in a single operation and/or in a single perhaps recommended location. One might even speculate that the identified plane might also have been dumped there if it originally ditched elsewhere in waters perhaps shallow enough for it to present a shipping or environmental hazard, from where it had eventually been recovered and disposed of in a standard location deemed more suitable for such disposal. Indeed from December 2006 earlier versions of this Wikipedia article simply asserted (using wordings that varied slightly over time) that all the planes "were declared either unfit for maintenance/repair or obsolete, and simply disposed of at sea", although this assertion was initially unsourced and then in August 2008 it was incorrectly sourced in a way that made the source contradict itself in the same paragraph until the contradiction was removed by removing the correctly sourced statement in August 2014); also some parts of the assertion's wordings at least appeared to conflict with other known facts.</blockquote>

"It is obviously possible to speculate..." all sorts of things, but to do so would be original research (well, not really research either). If reliable sources elsewhere are
doing that speculation, we should record it and reference it. Otherwise this doesn't belong in a Wiki article. The second half of Note 16 "Indeed from December 2006 earlier versions of this Wikipedia article..." is just crazy. It goes beyond [[WP:CIRCULAR]] violations to reference versions of articles that we know to be wrong.

I propose removing both of these notes. [[User:Chuntuk|Chuntuk]] ([[User talk:Chuntuk|talk]]) 12:46, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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I have just modified one external link on [[Flight 19]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=757773552 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
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== The Main Image ==

Currently the headline image is [/media/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Tbf-19-5.png a crude CGI drawing of the flight]. It's technically poor, it looks like the work of a child, and there is a much better image already available. Everything about it is misguided - the little cartoon pilots, the motion blur, the low-resolution textures. Fundamentally the concept is misjudged. It makes the article look bad and would have been inadequate as an illustration in the early 1990s. I understand the user who created the image has a yen for creating CGI images of aeroplane crashes, and he may well have a following here on Wikipedia - but this is awful. How come it has lasted so long? Who is keeping it up? What went wrong here? -[[User:Ashley Pomeroy|Ashley Pomeroy]] ([[User talk:Ashley Pomeroy|talk]]) 19:00, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
:This is fixed. All the best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 11:56, 16 April 2019 (UTC). 

== External links modified ==

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== Paranormal ==

This element is completely missing from the article, and as a result it reads like something fit for Wikia. The one and only reason this incident is remembered on such a scale is because of all the UFO claptrap that has surrounded it since the Bermuda Triangle books started coming out. [[Special:Contributions/93.136.205.44|93.136.205.44]] ([[User talk:93.136.205.44|talk]]) 06:24, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
:So, suggest something. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 18:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
::I suggest using the sources from the Skeptoid page listed at the bottom, for a start. [[Special:Contributions/93.136.205.44|93.136.205.44]] ([[User talk:93.136.205.44|talk]]) 00:27, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
:::Except that the "Skeptoid page listed at the bottom" does not mention the word "paranormal" anwhere. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 01:02, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
::::"Filed under History & Pseudohistory, Paranormal" [[Special:Contributions/93.136.205.44|93.136.205.44]] ([[User talk:93.136.205.44|talk]]) 02:13, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::Nowhere -- nowhere -- does that skeptoid article mention the word ''paranormal''. It could never be used to support ''paranormal'' in our article. Rolls eyes indeed.[[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 02:44, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::Again: the only reason this incident is worth a Wikipedia page are the conspiracy theories invented by Berlitz & Co. It's pretty obvious from the topics on this talk page too. By reading the article you'd never guess that any controversy ever existed. Maybe you figure I believe in these theories. I don't and I'm not asking to pretend that there is merit to them. But if we don't mention them, what's the point of having this article? [[Special:Contributions/93.136.151.154|93.136.151.154]] ([[User talk:93.136.151.154|talk]]) 02:59, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Got to agree with that assessment. Consider how many planes with military origin are lost in peace times, and it is pretty obvious that Flight 19 is way more prominent a topic than it would usually deserve, and the sole reason for that is the claims about paranormal occurrences during its disappearance. Like the commenter above, I don't believe anything mysterious or paranormal happened to the flight, but there should at least be some mention that this incident got so prominent, due to those claims made by Berlitz and Co.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 16:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

== Transcript From PBM-5 Bu 5995? Does Anyone have a source to the original? ==

Apparently the last words of the PBM-5 Bu 5995 crew were "They look like they're from outer space!". Would anyone have the links to the original transcript?
:I've submitted a FOIA request with the US Navy to acquire the transcript of the conversation which took place over the radio between the Base ATC and Bu 5995. I hope they have it.[[Special:Contributions/106.215.127.75|106.215.127.75]] ([[User talk:106.215.127.75|talk]]) 11:59, 23 August 2021 (UTC)Chantern15
<ref>https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1990/09/26/the-mystery-of-flight-19/f9a18a11-82b0-4010-b076-98ce545834df/</ref>

:Don't hold your breath waiting for info. The aircraft which exploded was BuNo. 59225, not Bu 5995. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 22:31, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
::Well maybe they'll understand what I was talking about, as I mentioned the PBM-5 which was dispatched to investigate the crash of Flight 19?[[User:Chantern15|Chantern15]] ([[User talk:Chantern15|talk]]) 22:41, 23 August 2021 (UTC)Chantern15
:::And maybe they wont, especially if they do a search for "They look like they're from outer space!".[[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 03:55, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
::::Ah, but I did not mention that phrase, I merely asked for the transcript of the conversation between base ATC and the PBM-5.[[User:Chantern15|Chantern15]] ([[User talk:Chantern15|talk]]) 07:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Chantern15
:::::And if/when the navy supplies the transcript, you wont search for "They look like they're from outer space" or similar. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 08:43, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
::::::I'll search for it, but only to find out the truth. The transcript will also be useful to Wikipedia, as we have the minutes of the Avengers' conversation with the base ATC, but not the one with the PBM-5. I'll go where the sources take me, and nowhere else. Especially not Space.[[User:Chantern15|Chantern15]] ([[User talk:Chantern15|talk]]) 18:29, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Chantern15
:::::: {{tq|Apparently the last words of the PBM-5 Bu 5995 crew were "They look like they're from outer space!".}} Apparently you didn't understand the context of the WaPo article. It wasn't saying those were the last words of the flight crew. It was saying that kind of hyperbole is typical of Bermuda Triangle stories. - [[User:LuckyLouie|LuckyLouie]] ([[User talk:LuckyLouie|talk]]) 16:06, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
:::::::That intent didn't seem clear in the article to me. It might be my fault for not understanding their points. So, I thought that the best way to know would be to get to the bottom of this, and go to the primary source, the Navy, and see what their records tell us. I wonder where the source of this hyperbolic statement is from? Where did Erich Von Daniken get it from?[[User:Chantern15|Chantern15]] ([[User talk:Chantern15|talk]]) 17:10, 24 August 2021 (UTC)Chantern15
::::::::Happily enough, the FOIA request from the US Navy was answered and yielded the following documents from NARA as they had already been declassified before and articles from history.navy.mil and histroyhub.history.gov they are:

::::::::Articles:

::::::::1. The Loss of Flight 19<ref>https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/disasters-and-phenomena/flight-19.html</ref>.
::::::::2. Loss of Flight 19 Accident Reports<ref>https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/l/lost-fight-19-official-accident-reports.html</ref>.
::::::::3. Lost Patrol<ref>https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/l/lost-patrol.html</ref>.
::::::::4. Exorcising the Devil's Triangle<ref>https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/e/exorcizing-the-devils-triangle.html</ref>.
::::::::5. Records of the Lost: Looking at the Records of Flight 19<ref>https://historyhub.history.gov/community/military-records/blog/2020/03/30/records-of-the-lost-looking-at-the-records-of-flight-19</ref>

::::::::Documents:

::::::::1. Folder A17: Fort Lauderdale-5 TBM Crash-December 5, 1945 THRU PBM-1946<ref>https://catalog.archives.gov/id/146850136</ref>. Pages 127 and 298 of the PDF cover the disappearance of the PBM-5 Mariner BuNo 59225 (search as Buno) and her crew. Unfortunately there are no transcripts of the conversation between the crew of the Mariner and the Base ATC as opposed to the well documented transcript of many conversations with the Base ATC, the Avengers and others. So, it is unclear where Eric Van Daniken got his claim of stating that the last words from the Mariner were "They look like they're from outer space". I hope at some point the transcript between BuNo 59225 and the Base ATC can be found, so that this part of the mystery can be laid to rest as well. In the meantime, these documents can be used to improve the article, perhaps bring it up to "featured status".
::::::::2. Flight 19 incident hack sheet<ref>https://catalog.archives.gov/id/70156078</ref>.
::::::::3. Flight 19 Navigation Problem #1<ref>https://catalog.archives.gov/id/73985447</ref>.
::::::::4. CNO Request Information on Flight 19<ref>https://catalog.archives.gov/id/73985451</ref>. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Chantern15|Chantern15]] ([[User talk:Chantern15#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Chantern15|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 November 2021 (UTC) 
{{reflist-talk}}

== In Expedition Unknown Mysteries of the Bermuda Triangle supposedly the Martin Mariner is found ==

This spans two episodes: E7 and E8 of S8.

In the second one they scan the ocean floor near the position of the last contact and find a 3 blade aluminum hub and a two cylinder row motor.
I just saw it translated on Tele5 in Germany where it is in the mediathek at the moment of writing this comment (DEC-13-2021).

Episode descriptions found here: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4305162/episodes?season=8

If I not overlooked a link to an extra article about the rescue plane and if one exists please add link to the article. There is a link to the plane model article<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_PBM_Mariner</ref> but the article does not contain any links to the one lost on search for flight 19.

[[User:Runeb2|Runeb2]] ([[User talk:Runeb2|talk]]) 13:47, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

:Your last sentence says it all. nothing here to add to the article. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] ([[User talk:Moriori|talk]]) 22:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

List of School Days characters

2021-02-01T23:28:17Z

Die-yng:

{{short description|Wikipedia list article}}
{{DISPLAYTITLE:List of ''School Days'' characters}}
[[Image:School Days Female Characters.jpg|thumb|300px|From left to right: Setsuna Kiyoura, Sekai Saionji, Hikari Kuroda, Kotonoha Katsura and Nanami Kanroji]]
This is a list of characters from the [[visual novel]] ''[[School Days (visual novel)|School Days]]'' and its adaptations. Most of the characters and their birthdays are named after [[List of Prime Ministers of Japan|Japanese Prime Ministers]].<ref name="push200904">Published in April 2009 edition of ''PUSH!!'' by Akio Onuma.</ref>

==Characters==

===Primary characters===
;{{Nihongo|Makoto Itou<ref name=b>{{cite web|url=https://schooldays.us/characters.html|title=School Days Characters|work=STACK, JAST USA|access-date=2020-10-10}}</ref>|伊藤誠|Itō Makoto}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Daisuke Hirakawa]]}} (credited as [[Tatsuya Hirai]] in game)
:Makoto Ito is the protagonist of the ''School Days'' visual novel and its adaptations. He's the unlikely antagonist in the ''Cross Days'' manga. A generally mild-mannered and composed student in [[Education in Japan#School grades|year one]] (10th grade), class three, his life becomes complicated when Sekai Saionji sets him up with Kotonoha Katsura, a girl he has a crush on.

:Soon afterwards, Sekai decides to kiss him at a train station where he is waiting on Kotonoha for their first date. From this point onwards, Makoto's personality can change drastically depending on the player's decisions in the [[visual novel]], and he can become anything from a mostly decisive and faithful partner to one of his love interests, to an indecisive and/or selfish and cruel person who unfaithfully initiates multiple relationships and, in the bad endings, pays a heavy price for it. In almost all VN routes and adaptations, he is good friends with Taisuke Sawanaga and Otome Katou (the latter of whom is a childhood friend), and lives with his divorced mother and has a younger sister named Itaru who lives with their father.

:His anime incarnation, though initially casual, gentle and understanding, gets addicted to sex over time and instead becomes more apathetic, rash and egotistical towards others, regardless of interpersonal harm or later consequence. It is hinted on multiple occasions that he is aware of the negative consequences of his actions, but makes no real attempt to remedy them. This version of Makoto is seen as callous and selfish, and has been negatively received by multiple critics and fans of the original visual novel alike. In the final episode, he is killed by a jealous and emotionally unstable Sekai, who stabs him to death for being unfaithful to her with Kotonoha. Kotonoha, having lost her sanity upon seeing Makoto's corpse, kills Sekai in return. Makoto, when portrayed in the manga, is much more reserved and controlled, and even struggles choosing over Sekai and Kotonoha. In the final two chapters of the manga, Makoto is accidentally slashed by a maddened Kotonoha, who immediately breaks down in remorse. After being admitted to a hospital, Makoto announces to Sekai that he shall live with Kotonoha to help ease her spirits, only to discover later on that Sekai fatally stabbed Kotonoha so as to prevent her from harming Makoto further, much to his horror. His birthday and his surname are derived from [[Itō Hirobumi]]. Makoto's given name means "fidelity" and or "truth" which can be ironic. He is considered a generic protagonist since he is a gentle ordinary high school student. Although not directly stated, it is implied that his father is Tomaru Sawagoe (a character who appeared in other 0verlfow games), a fact which is proven through external sources.

;{{Nihongo|Kotonoha Katsura|桂言葉|Katsura Kotonoha}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Tae Okajima]]}} (credited as [[Soyogi Tono]] in game)
:Polite and reserved, Kotonoha Katsura is a student in year one, class four who is on the [[student council]] and serves as one of the most pivotal characters in the story. A sweet girly girl and noticeably well-endowed [[bibliophilia|bookworm]], she becomes the initial love interest of Makoto early into their second term, and with some effort from Sekai Saionji, becomes his girlfriend after she reciprocates her affection for him. While Kotonoha for the most part is calm and gentle, she has a very delicate psyche, which under stress can lead to irrational culpability, delusions and even malice. Hence, she is a well known [[yandere]] character. She has a younger sister named Kokoro and lives with their wealthy mother Manami and father in the fictional area of Haramihama. She is disliked by Otome Katou and is subject to her bullying on account of her beautiful appearance, among other reasons.

:In the anime, she becomes insane from her love for Makoto, her desperation to keep him as her boyfriend, and her knowledge of his unfaithfulness to her. Makoto realizes how much he had hurt Kotonoha, and, overwhelmed by remorse, takes her back as his girlfriend. Tragically, the next day, Kotonoha soon discovers Makoto had been killed; correctly deducing a jealous Sekai had murdered him, she lops off Makoto's head and presents it to Sekai seconds before murdering her in revenge. She is later seen lovingly cuddling Makoto's severed head on a boat facing the sunrise. In the manga, she accidentally slashes Makoto in an attempt to kill a luring Sekai, who, in order to prevent her from harming Makoto further, kills her while Makoto recovers in a hospital. Her birthday and her surname are derived from [[Katsura Tarō]].

;{{Nihongo|Sekai Saionji|西園寺世界|Saionji Sekai}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Shiho Kawaragi]]}} (credited as [[Kaname Yuzuki]] in game)
:Sekai Saionji is a student in year one, class three who is the antithesis and [[foil (literature)|foil]] of Kotonoha. A playful tomboy and outgoing classmate seated directly next to Makoto, she takes a curious interest in him during their first acquaintance, and in every medium of the series, helps to establish his bond with Kotonoha. Though a genuinely upbeat genki girl, Sekai does occasionally show a more serious side, and when sufficiently frustrated can be loud, selfish, overemotional and even manipulative. She lives with her mother Yōko in the fictional area of Motehara-Sakashita and works part-time as a waitress at the family restaurant Radish.

:In the anime, she attempts to set up Makoto and Kotonoha in a relationship, but ultimately ends up falling in love with Makoto. Makoto, bored with Kotonoha, decides to go after Sekai, who he supposedly impregnates after making love to her. Makoto, stressed and confused as to what to do about Sekai's pregnancy, leaves Sekai for Kotonaha, who he discovers to have been emotionally devastated by his cheating on her. Sekai then stabs Makoto to death for his unfaithfulness to her, only for Kotonoha to kill her in return, after she accuses Sekai of faking her pregnancy. Once Sekai is dead, Kotonoha claims her suspicions were accurate. In the manga, Kotonoha very nearly kills her for luring Makoto away from her, but accidentally slashes Makoto himself, who gets admitted to a hospital. Sekai, having become [[Insanity|insane]] from the shock of nearly being killed, fatally stabs Kotonoha in order to prevent her from harming Makoto further. Her birthday and her surname are derived from [[Saionji Kinmochi]]. It's revealed in the Summer Days game that Sekai's mother is the daughter of Makoto's father<ref name=a></ref> (that makes her Makoto's 'half-sister'), so Makoto is Sekai's uncle.

===Secondary characters===
;{{Nihongo|Setsuna Kiyoura|清浦刹那|Kiyoura Setsuna}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Keiko Imoto]]}} (credited as [[Hana Yamamoto]] in game)
:Setsuna Kiyoura is a student in year one, class three, who likes Makoto, is on the student council as a class representative. One of the more inscrutable characters, Setsuna is a keen, focused and habitually tacit girl who tends to have and keep the most level head of her peers when situations go awry. Setsuna is a silent and emotionless kuudere who is very stoic in tone and expression. She is Sekai's best friend, having grown up with her, and to a considerable degree is overly solicitous of her, to the point of hurting others to ensure that Sekai is happy. In ''[[Summer Days]]'', where she is the protagonist, Setsuna is shy and timid, in contrast to her more serious portrayal in School Days. Her mother, Mai, only makes an appearance in ''[[Summer Days]]''. With the exception of Kokoro Katsura, Setsuna is the shortest character of the main cast, and is often mistaken for a junior high school student, a trait she is well aware and conscious of. Her birthday and her surname are derived from [[Kiyoura Keigo]]. In the anime, she is forced to leave for France, but, fearing for Sekai, who she knows to be emotionally unstable, places her in the hands of Makoto, who she orders to stay faithful to Sekai. It is soon revealed that Setsuna actually had a crush on Makoto. Her transferring to France, coupled with Makoto's subsequent unfaithfulness to Sekai, left Sekai in a deep emotional depression. It's revealed in the Summer Days game that Setsuna's mother, like Sekai's mother, is the daughter of Makoto's father<ref name=a>{{cite web|url=https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/school-days/images/b/b1/Official_Family_Tree.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160319142050|title=Official Family Tree|work=0verflow|access-date=2020-10-10}}</ref> (that makes her another 'half-sister' of Makoto), so Makoto is Setsuna's uncle, too.

;{{Nihongo|Hikari Kuroda|黒田光|Kuroda Hikari}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Ryōko Tanaka]]}} (credited as [[Hikaru Isshiki]] in game)
:High maintenance and fastidious, Hikari Kuroda is a student in year one, class three, recognizable by her signature squid rings hairstyle. She initially believes that Makoto and Sekai are dating from the very start, and tends to negatively generalize him; later growing closer to him herself. Though she is actually quite friendly and social, Hikari is the most childish of the cast; sporting an unduly knack for whining and prying into the affairs of others. Her family owns a [[confectionery store]] and café, famous for its lemon custard pie. Hikari is good friends with Sekai and has an unreciprocated crush on Taisuke Sawanaga. Her birthday and her surname are derived from [[Kuroda Kiyotaka]]. In the anime, she grew out of her crush on Taisuke, and began having a sexual relationship with Makoto.

;{{Nihongo|Nanami Kanroji|甘露寺七海|Kanroji Nanami}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Chiaki Takahashi (actress)|Chiaki Takahashi]]}} (credited as [[Chiaki Takahashi (actress)|Miko Fujimura]] in game)
:Nanami Kanroji is a student in year one, class three who is a member of the girls' basketball team, attending the school on an athletic scholarship. A mostly interpersonal character, Nanami is a mature and silent tomboy who generally does not involve herself in the affairs of others and as such remains for the most part unanalyzed. She is the only girl of the main cast to have an established boyfriend from the start, a member of the basketball club named Kyoichi, though to her chagrin he is a devout [[otaku]]. Nanami is good friends with Sekai, who comes from her junior high school, and Otome Katou. Of the entire cast, Nanami is the tallest character. Her surname is derived from [[:ja:甘露寺受長|Kanroji Osanaga]].

;{{Nihongo|Otome Katou<ref name=b></ref>|加藤乙女|Katō Otome}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Yuki Matsunaga|Haruka Nagami]]}} (credited as [[Yuki Matsunaga]] in game)
:Direct and headstrong, Otome Katou is a student in year one, class four, who like Nanami, is a member of the girls' basketball team. She is usually very intimidating, authoritative to her peers, tolerates nothing but her way and opinion, and does not generally associate with anyone but her trio of friends Minami Obuchi, Natsumi Koizumi and Kumi Mori; who together frequently harass and coerce Kotonoha. Despite her difficult behavior and tsundere personality however, Otome can be particularly tender and shy, especially around Makoto, who she has known since junior high school and has a crush on. Because she is very much a tomboy Makoto saw her as 'one of the guys' and took her confession as a joke. Apparently Otome has a younger sister named Karen, who appears in ''Shiny Days''.<ref name=c>{{cite web|url=https://0verflow.com/products/shinydays/sh_setsuna.html#ps-charactor|title=Shiny Days character profile|publisher=[[0verflow]]|accessdate=2020-10-10|language=Japanese}}</ref> Her birthday and her surname is derived from [[Katō Tomosaburō]].

;{{Nihongo|Taisuke Sawanaga|澤永泰介|Sawanaga Taisuke}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Yoshirō Matsumoto]]}} (credited as [[Hikage Hinata]] in game)
:Taisuke Sawanaga is a student in year one, class three. A spirited, peculiar, perverted and rather hopeless romantic, Taisuke is Makoto's best friend from junior high school who frequently endeavors to forward his otherwise lonely ambitious love life, oblivious to Hikari's feelings for him. He takes a strong interest in Kotonoha, despite her rejection, and only under certain circumstances in the game actually dates her. Though Taisuke raped Kotonoha or Sekai, the VN suggests he is somehow unaware how wrong rape is. Taisuke is the second tallest character of the cast, and is the only other male character besides Makoto.

;{{Nihongo|Kokoro Katsura|桂心|Katsura Kokoro}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Megu Ashiro]]}} (credited as [[Megu Ashiro|Aoi Kamitsuki]])
:Kokoro Katsura is the sweet-natured younger sister of Kotonoha. Unlike her older sibling, Kokoro is peppy, talkative and full of curiosity, and although she frequently teases Kotonoha, she worries about her greatly. She has a good friend named Uzuki and affectionately looks up to Makoto as her older brother. Kokoro lives with Kotonoha and their mother Manami and father. Her birthday and her surname are derived from [[Katsura Taro]].

;{{Nihongo|Youko Saionji|西園寺踊子|Saionji Yōko}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Aoi Kamizuki]]}} (games), [[Megu Ashiro]] (anime)
:Youko Saionji, [[maiden name]] Inō, is Sekai's mother. Benevolent, knowledgeable, wise and effervescent, Yōko serves to provide advice and guidance to her daughter when necessary, especially concerning her relationships. She is a restaurateur of Radish with friend, and slight rival, Mai Kiyoura. She is one of the heroines in ''Summer Days'' and ''Shiny Days''. Her father is Tomaru Sawagoe (a character who appeared in other 0verlfow games), that makes her 'half-sister' of Makoto, so Makoto is Youko's younger brother.

;{{Nihongo|Manami Katsura|桂真奈美|Katsura Manami}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Tomoe Suzumi]]}} (games), Shiho Hisajima (anime)
:Manami Katsura is the biological mother of Kotonoha and Kokoro who makes vocal appearances in the game and anime and a brief appearance in one panel of the manga. She is one of the heroines in ''Summer Days'' and ''Shiny Days''. She also appear in '''Cross Days'''.

===''Summer Days'' characters===
;{{Nihongo|Ai Yamagata|山県愛|Yamagata Ai}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Maki Kobayashi]]}} (credited as [[Maki Kobayashi|Mio Okawa]] in game)
:Ai Yamagata is a student in year one, class three. She is good friends with Sekai Saionji and Hikari Kuroda, and is an acquaintance of Makoto Itou and Otome Katou from middle school. She also appears in ''Cross Days'' and ''School days'', makes a cameo appearance in episode 2 {{nihongo|"The Distance Between the Two"|二人の距離|Futari no Kyori}}. Her birthday and her surname are derived from [[Yamagata Aritomo]].

;{{Nihongo|Karen Katou|加藤可憐|Katō Karen}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Eriko Nakayama]]}} (credited as [[GUNTA]] in game)
:Karen Katou is the playful younger sister of Otome Katou. Unlike her older sibling, Karen is cheerful and unabashed who is just as playfully teasing as she is concerned of Otome. She is good friends with Kazuha and Futaba Nijou and looks up to Makoto as her mentor and role model.

;{{Nihongo|Kazuha Nijou|二条一葉|Nijō Kazuha}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Megu Ashiro]]}} (credited as [[Megu Ashiro|Aoi Kamitsuki]] in game)
: Kazuha Nijou is the older [[Twin#Monozygotic twins|monozygotic twin]] of Futaba Nijou, distinguishable by her red headband and [[Japanese school uniform#Sailor outfit|sailor outfit]] school uniform. She is a classmate and good friend of Karen who looks up to Makoto as her mentor and role model.

;{{Nihongo|Futaba Nijou|二条二葉|Nijō Futaba}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Miwa Kitahara]]}} (credited as [[Yayoi Kusatsuki]])
:Futaba Nijou is the younger monozygotic twin of Kazuha, distinguishable by her beige headband and dressy clothes. Like her sister, Futaba is a fellow classmate and good friend of Karen who looks up to Makoto as her mentor and role model.

;{{Nihongo|Oruha Hashimoto|橋本織葉|Hashimoto Oruha}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Hazuki Futami]]}}
:Employed waitress of Radish. Oruha Hashimoto initially does not like Setsuna and teases her with ridicule and put-downs, but eventually grows to accept her. She is a good friend of Noan Murayama. Of the entire female cast, Oruha is the only girl with an established boyfriend from the start.

;{{Nihongo|Noan Murayama|村山野杏|Murayama Noan}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Yūka Hara]]}}
:The second waitress of Radish, Noan Murayama is roughly the same as Oruha, though she is more gentle and easygoing. Setsuna looks up to her as a role model. Her birthday and her surname are derived from [[Tomiichi Murayama|Murayama Tomiichi]].

;{{Nihongo|Mai Kiyoura|清浦舞|Kiyoura Mai}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Moe Natsumi]]}}
:Mai Kiyoura, [[maiden name]] Inō, is Setsuna's mother. She is a restaurateur with friend, and slight rival, Youko Saionji. Her father is Tomaru Sawagoe, that makes her another 'half-sister' of Makoto, so Makoto is Mai's younger brother, too.

;{{Nihongo|Shun Hazama|間瞬|Hazama Shun}}
:{{Anime voice|Higuchi Hirosumi}}
:Shun is the father of Sekai, Setsuna, Hanon, Kazuha, Futaba and Inori. Like Youko and Mai, his father is Tomaru Sawagoe, that makes him 'half-brother' of Makoto, so Makoto is Shun's younger brother.

===''Cross Days'' characters===
{{nihongo|'''Yuuki Ashikaga'''|足利勇気|Ashikaga Yūki}}
:{{anime voices|[[Mahiru Nakano]]}}
: Reserved and slightly bashful, Yuuki Ashikaga is the unlikely protagonist of the game. A student librarian in year one, class one, his life at school becomes tangled and confusing when he inquires about and attempts to resolve, a supposed affair between Roka Kitsuregawa and Makoto Itou, boyfriend of Kotonoha Katsura. Although confident and bright, due to his short height and bespectacled nature, he suffers from an inferiority complex and is easily manipulated, especially by his older sister Chie. Yuuki enjoys reading, playing [[Massively multiplayer online game|MMO]]s and looks up to Kyouichi Kasannoin as his mentor and [[senpai]]. He is friends with Taisuke Sawanaga and Hikari Kuroda. In the manga, despite his efforts in exposing Makoto's unfaithfulness to Kotonoha, whom he has a crush on, Yuuki is greatly distraught when he discovers Kotonoha's insanity as she scolds him coldly for "interfering with [her] life". A heartbroken Yuuki considers suicide on a monorail, Roka, in the nick of time saves and reassures him. At the school festival, after Makoto gets shamed by his classmates for mocking Yuuki, Setsuna convinces Yuuki and Roka not to approach Makoto and Kotonoha ever again. Yuuki and Roka become a couple. His name is derived from the [[Ashikaga clan]].

:{{nihongo|'''Yuu'''|ゆう|Yuu}} is the feminine pseudonym that Yuuki assumes when he cross-dresses as a female student.

{{nihongo|'''Roka Kitsuregawa'''|喜連川路夏|Kitsuregawa Roka}}
:{{anime voices|Kaoru Mizuhara (credited as [[Ren Minazuki]])}}
: Roka Kitsuregawa is a student in year one, class two who is a member of the woman's basketball team and serves as the heroine of the story. Tender and friendly, she comes upon Yuuki in the school library, and, following a more developed acquaintance through his sister Chie, becomes attracted to him. Like Yuuki, Roka herself is also short and petite, standing roughly his height and equally as intimidated and timid. She is friends with Chie, Ion Ishibashi, and Youka Kira. In the manga, Roka initially relied on Makoto to mend her relationship with Yuuki, which unwittingly caused a misunderstood affair, unaware of Makoto's true nature. When Makoto attempted to rape her, and Yuuki rescues her, Roka comes to realize her mistake. After saving Yuuki from certain death, Roka learned to be more straightforward and has him invite and accept her feelings at the school festival bonfire dance.

{{nihongo|'''Chie Ashikaga'''|足利知恵|Ashikaga Chie}}
:{{anime voices|[[Mina Kurokawa]] (credited as [[Mina Motoyama]])}}
: Willful yet caring, Chie Ashikaga is the older sister of Yuuki who, like Roka, is a member of the woman's basketball team. She introduces her brother to Roka at the beginning of the game, initiating the first love triangle of characters and the basis to what eventually becomes a misunderstood affair between Roka and Makoto. Chie is good friends with Ion, Youka and is jealous of Nanami Kanroji's athleticism. Though very brief, Chie, with much shorter hair, makes a cameo appearance in episode 10 of ''School Days'', {{nihongo|"Mind and Body"|心と体|Kokoro to Karada}}, as the student responsible for videotaping the activity of the rest area during the school festival. Her name is derived from the [[Ashikaga clan]].

{{nihongo|'''Ion Ishibashi'''|石橋伊穏|Ishibashi Ion}}
:{{anime voices|[[Yuzu Tonuma]]}}
: Ion Ishibashi is a student and a member of the woman's basketball team. She is an [[androgynous]] friend of Chie who also smokes. Her name is derived from [[Tanzan Ishibashi]].

{{nihongo|'''Youka Kira'''|吉良洋佳|Kira Yōka}}
:{{anime voices|[[Miru Takakura]]}}
: Passive and sagacious, Youka Kira is a student. She is a friend of Chie who also smokes.

{{nihongo|'''Kyouichi Kasannoin'''|花山院恭一|Kasannoin Kyōichi}}
:{{anime voices|[[Hideki Ogihara]] (credited as [[Takezō Koike]])}}
: Kyouichi Kasannoin is a student in year one, class one, and Nanami Kanroji's boyfriend. He enjoys playing [[eroge]]s, works part-time as a tutor, and looks to Yuuki as his kōhai. He also makes a cameo appearance in episode 10 of ''School Days, {{nihongo|"Mind and Body"|心と体|Kokoro to Karada}}

{{nihongo|'''Hanon Nijou'''|二条葉音|Nijō Hanon}}
:{{anime voices|[[Natsumi Takamori]] (credited as [[Natsumi Takamori|Toa Yukimura]])}}
: The older sister of Kazuha and Futaba Nijou. She is from Watojo Academy and is often seen visiting Sakakino with Niki Ookuma, her best friend. Unknown to everyone, Hanon is one of the "other women" of Kyouichi Kasannoin. Like Ai Yamagata, Hanon also went to the same middle school with Makoto and is rumored to have fallen for him as well. She is popular with male students from other schools and is rumored to have sex with minors. Hanon doesn't get along with Otome Katou gets along fine with Otome's little sister Karen Katou.

{{nihongo|'''Niki Okuma'''|大隈二喜|Ōkuma Niki}}
:{{anime voices|[[Mariya Sumida]] (credited as [[Mariya Kurada]])}}
: The childhood friend of Sekai and Setsuna. Unlike both of them, she went to Watojo Academy. She is also friends with Hanon Nijou. Niki Oogura is an alias she has sometimes used. In one route in ''Cross Days'', Niki will attempt to seduce Yuuki but failed.

===''Shiny Days characters''===
;{{Nihongo|Inori Ashikaga|足利いのり|Ashikaga Inori}}
:{{Anime voice|Madoka Nagano}}
:Ashikaga is a girl who bumps into Setsuna on her first day at Radish Restaurant. After being knockout by Setsuna(for accidently stripping her uniform), she is looked after by her. She is the long lost childhood friend of Makoto.

;{{Nihongo|Natsuhi Ebata|江幡夏日|Ebata Natsuhi}}
:{{Anime voice|Maki Kobayashi (credited as Mio Ogawa)}}
:Natsuhi is the biological mother of Inori.

;{{Nihongo|Moeko Itou|伊藤萌子|Itō Moeko}}
:{{Anime voice|Motoi Emi (credited as Nogami Nana)}}
:Moeko is the mother of Makoto and Itaru.

===Minor characters===
;{{Nihongo|Minami Obuchi|小渕みなみ|Obuchi Minami}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Minami Kuribayashi]]}}
:Minami Obuchi is a student in class four who is the most obedient friend of Otome and bullies Kotonoha. Her name and birthday are derived from [[Keizo Obuchi]].

;{{Nihongo|Natsumi Koizumi|小泉夏美|Koizumi Natsumi}}
:{{Anime voice|[[Sawa Konohana]]}} (games), [[Nana Furuhara]] (anime)
:Natsumi Koizumi is a student in class four who is the most informative and interpersonal friend of Otome and bullies Kotonoha. Her name and birthday are derived from [[Junichiro Koizumi]].

;{{Nihongo|Kumi Mori|森来実|Mori Kumi}}
:''Voiced by:'' [[Nene (voice actress)|Nene]] (games), [[Eri Saita]] (anime)
:Kumi Mori is a student in class four who is the most puerile, yet politest friend of Otome. In the anime, it is mentioned that she has a boyfriend. Kumi also bullies Kotonoha. Her name and birthday are derived from [[Yoshiro Mori]].

;{{Nihongo|Itaru Itou|伊藤止|Itō Itaru}}<ref name=c></ref>
:{{Anime voice|[[Kagetsu Nanba]]}} (games), [[Emi Uwagawa]] (Drama CD vol. 1)
:Wholesome, carefree and overall cheerful, Itaru is the younger sister of Makoto. Separated by the divorce of their parents, she lives under the sole custody of their father, who she does not like, and occasionally sneaks out to come and visit her much adored older brother. Her favorite food is peach.

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{School Days|state=expanded}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:School Days}}

[[Category:Lists of anime and manga characters]]
[[Category:Lists of visual novel characters]]

Talk:100 Ghost Street: The Return of Richard Speck

2020-06-07T06:10:37Z

Die-yng:

{{WikiProject Film|class=Stub|American=yes}}
{{WikiProject Horror|class=Stub|importance=Low}}

== Redirecting ==

I'm redirecting this because there is no in-depth coverage of this movie in any reliable and independent sources. If/when it does get that coverage, we can un-redirect this.[[User:Tokyogirl79|Tokyogirl79]] ([[User talk:Tokyogirl79|talk]]) 13:17, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

== UK Title ==

For what it's worth, the UK title of this is "Paranormal Entity 4: The Awakening" - no real source other than the DVD cover itself.[[User:Greg1138|Greg1138]] ([[User talk:Greg1138|talk]]) 07:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

== Although, However, ==

List of RWBY characters

2020-05-06T23:56:33Z

Die-yng: /* Weiss Schnee */

{{multiple issues|
{{more citations needed|date=February 2016|reason=see talk page on cleanup of allusions}}
{{speculation|reason=see talk page on cleanup of allusions|date=May 2016}}
{{overly detailed|date=December 2019}}
}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=January 2017}}
{{DISPLAYTITLE:List of ''RWBY'' characters}}
This is a '''list of characters''' who appear in '''''[[RWBY]]''''', an original [[anime]]-style [[Computer graphics|CG-animated]] [[web series]] created by [[Rooster Teeth Productions]].

According to series creator [[Monty Oum]], every character's name is tied to a specific color. There are also other teams with their name combining to form acronyms that are also tied to a color.<ref name="FTGInterview">{{cite news|last=Machuga |first=Stephen |title=Monty Oum for Rooster Teeth, RWBY: Front Towards Gamer Radio, Episode 172 |url=http://fronttowardsgamer.com/2013/05/27/monty-oum-rooster-teeth-rwby-front-towards-gamer-radio-episode-172/ |accessdate=June 9, 2013 |newspaper=Front Towards Gamer |date=May 27, 2013 |url-status=dead |archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20130609164416/http://fronttowardsgamer.com/2013/05/27/monty-oum-rooster-teeth-rwby-front-towards-gamer-radio-episode-172/ |archivedate=June 9, 2013 }}</ref>

{{TOC limit|limit=3}}

==Creation and conception==

Oum designed the characters with assistance from artist Ein Lee. Oum had been browsing Lee's [[Deviant Art]] work and asked if she wanted to do some designs. The only rule provided for the series was "everyone must be badass." Lee also said that some of the characters were conceived between her and Oum, where he would provide a description followed by her sketching some ideas, or vice versa. Others were from brainstorming with other people.<ref name="concept art world">{{cite web|url=http://conceptartworld.com/news/rooster-teeth-productions-presents-rwby-concept-art-by-ein-lee-qa/|title=Rooster Teeth Productions Presents RWBY Concept Art by Ein Lee (Q&A) | work=Concept Art World | date=July 18, 2013 | accessdate=December 30, 2016}}</ref> The characters utilize designs inspired by classic fairy tale characters.<ref name="ConstantlyCalibrating">{{cite news|last=Silverman|first=Joshua|title=Interview: Monty Oum|url=http://constantlycalibrating.com/2013/02/19/interview-monty-oum/|accessdate=June 9, 2013|newspaper=Constantly Calibrating|date=February 19, 2013|url-status=dead|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20130724064141/http://constantlycalibrating.com/2013/02/19/interview-monty-oum/|archivedate=July 24, 2013|df=mdy-all}}</ref> Each character has an associated color, and it is the first letters of these colors, red, white, black, and yellow, that give the series its name.<ref>{{cite web|last1=Oum|first1=Monty|title=Rooster Theeth Podcast #191|url=http://roosterteeth.com/podcast/episode.php?id=191|website=Rooster Teeth|accessdate=February 16, 2015|url-status=dead|archiveurl=https://archive.is/20130506051101/http://roosterteeth.com/podcast/episode.php?id=191|archivedate=May 6, 2013|df=mdy-all}}</ref> Lee said that looking to people, Google image searches, and fashion were inspirations: "how people dress−down to the littlest detail—gives many subtle (and some not so subtle) hints about who they are. It’s all about giving the characters a unique and memorable look that people can still identify with."<ref name="concept art world"/> Oum also drew inspiration from the ''[[Final Fantasy]]'' video games and the "ridiculously obnoxious weapons".<ref>{{cite web|url=https://samuraibeatradio.com/2013/12/21/new-york-comic-con-2013-an-interview-with-the-rwby-staff/|title=New York Comic-Con 2013: An Interview with the RWBY Staff|first=|last=SamuraiBeatRadio|date=December 21, 2013|work=samuraibeatradio.com|accessdate=December 30, 2016}}</ref>

The series is written by Oum, along with fellow Rooster Teeth employees Miles Luna and Kerry Shawcross.<ref name="CapsuleComputers">{{cite news|last=Parbhu|first=Sanjay|title=Rooster Teeth Releases RWBY Yellow Trailer|url=http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/2013/06/rooster-teeth-releases-rwby-yellow-trailer/|accessdate=June 9, 2013|newspaper=Capsule Computers|date=June 4, 2013}}</ref> Oum was initially concerned about a story focusing on female characters being developed by a primarily male crew, but said they managed to do well developing the female characters.<ref name=FTGInterview />

==Main characters==
===Team RWBY===
Team RWBY (pronounced "[[ruby]]")<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.austinchronicle.com/screens/2013-07-19/the-full-monty/|title=The Full Monty|author=|date=|work=austinchronicle.com|accessdate=February 19, 2016}}</ref> is composed of four female students from Beacon Academy.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} Each member is associated with a color and alludes to a character in the fairy tale world—reflected in their names and personalities.

==== Ruby Rose ====
[[File:Lindsay Jones at SDCC 2015.jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Lindsay Jones (actress)|Lindsay Jones]], voice of Ruby Rose]]
{{otheruse|Ruby Rose (disambiguation)}}
* Voiced by: [[Lindsay Jones (actress)|Lindsay Jones]]{{efn|Lindsay Jones was credited as Lindsay Tuggey for volumes 1 and 2<ref name="pd 2-3">{{cite news |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsHo347cdHQ |title=RWBY Volume 2: Production Diary 3 |publisher=YouTube |author=[[Rooster Teeth]] |date=May 15, 2014}}</ref>{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 and 2 credits}}}}

The 15-year old [[main protagonist]] who typically dresses in a black dress and a red cloak, using the Crescent Rose [[scythe]] as both a melee weapon and as a high caliber [[sniper rifle]].<ref name="Oum">{{cite web |url=http://roosterteeth.com/post/2950427 |title=RWBY Questions? RWBY Answers! |last=Oum |first=Monty |year=2003 |website=Rooster Teeth |accessdate=November 4, 2015}}</ref> In Volume 7, the blade of the scythe can rotate on the rifle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} Her Semblance is called "Petal Burst", which enables her to transform into a fast burst of rose petals.<ref name="World of RWBY">{{cite book |title=The World of RWBY: The Official Companion}}</ref> Initially, it was thought that Ruby's ability was primarily speed, enabling her to run faster than the human eye can catch, and change directions in mid-air.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 14 & Vol. 4, Ch. 1}}. But in Volume 7, Harriet notes that there is more to Ruby's Semblance.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}}

As her mother [[#Summer Rose|Summer Rose]] died when she was very young, Ruby is raised on the island of Patch by her father [[#Taiyang Xiao Long|Taiyang]] and older half-sister [[#Yang Xiao Long|Yang Xiao Long]].{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 1 & Vol. 2, Ch. 6}} Her uncle [[#Qrow|Qrow Branwen]] teaches her how to wield a scythe and fight properly, with Ruby stating that she was "complete garbage" before he took her in as his pupil.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 14}} Ruby was also inspired by the heroic fairy tales Yang read to her as a child to become a Huntress to protect the world from evil.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 3 & Vol. 2, Ch. 9–10}}

At the start of the series, Ruby's skills and resolve when Torchwick robbed a Dust shop robbery impresses [[#Professor Ozpin|Professor Ozpin]] enough to enroll her into Beacon Academy two years early.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 1}} Despite her social awkwardness, obsession with weapons, and dependence on her sister,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 2–3}} Ruby becomes friends with her classmates while exhibiting the skills and qualities that placed her as the leader of Team RWBY.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 8}} Following the Fall of Beacon, Ruby learns from Qrow that she and her mother are descendants of powerful silver-eyed warriors whom the Grimm long feared since the warriors can tap into the God of Light's power to inflict harm on the Grimm in various ways.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}}

A few months later, informally calling themselves Team RNJR (pronounced "ranger"), Ruby travels with the remaining members of [[#Team JNPR|Team JNPR]] to Haven Academy in Mistral in order to find leads on their enemies.<ref name="ranger name">{{cite web |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoR3FmI2hLo |title=RWBY Volume 4: Clip |first=|last=Rooster Teeth Clips|date=October 21, 2016|publisher=|accessdate=January 5, 2017|via=YouTube}}</ref><ref name="ranger panel">{{cite web |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GllDpEqx6Fw&t=2350 |title=RWBY RTX 2016 Full Second Panel|first=|last=ZLGNF|date=July 8, 2016|publisher=|accessdate=January 5, 2017|via=YouTube}}</ref>{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4}} During their travels, Ruby is targeted by [[#Tyrian Callows|Tyrian]], but she evades capture with Qrow's help.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 6–7}} In Volume 5, Ruby trains in hand-to-hand combat under Ozpin's guidance while reunited with Weiss and Yang.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 4, 6}} During the Battle of Haven, briefly knocked out by Emerald while subconsciously activating her silver eyes, Ruby and her teammates reunite with Blake as they win.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11–14}}

In Volume 6, Ruby begins losing faith in Ozpin upon seeing his continued mistrust and learning the truth behind him and Salem.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1–3}}. This results with a guilt-ridden Ozpin sealing himself in Oscar's mind, forcing Ruby to develop leadership traits to restore morale while dealing with Qrow's increased alcoholism as they are joined by Maria Calavera. It was after an encounter with the Apathy Grimm that Ruby learns Maria was originally a silver-eyed warrior and requests her mentorship to consciously use her powers.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 6–8}} She later takes charge of the group's plan in stealing an Atlas airship, and when they later fight Cordovin. After a failed attempt to negotiate with the operative, Ruby destroys the Colossus's cannon by firing at the Dust inside.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10–12}} In the fight against the Leviathan, Ruby uses her silver eyes to petrify it. After Cordovin finishes off the Grimm, Ruby makes amends with the operative and her group is allowed passage to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}}

In Volume 7, Ruby has become conflicted with the morality of her actions. As she hides the truth about Salem and the Relic of Knowledge from Ironwood because she does not fully trust him, she worries that she has become the same as Ozpin.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2 & 4}} She also develops a friendly rivalry with Harriet, as they are both have speed-type Semblances.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3 & 5}} After receiving her license from Ironwood, Ruby asks Qrow about Summer and her last mission and rekindles her friendship with Penny.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 4–5}} When Salem demands for the Relics, Ruby is emotionally devastated when she finds out that the witch was responsible for Summer's death.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 11}} After her team defeats the Ace-Ops, Ruby uses her silver eyes on Cinder and helps Penny escape with the rest of the group.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 12-13}}

Ruby alludes to the fairy tale character [[Little Red Riding Hood]].<ref name="kotaku allusions japan">{{cite web|url=http://www.kotaku.jp/2013/06/rwby_new_trailer.html |title=死ぬほどかっこいい謎のアニメーションプロジェクト『RWBY』シリーズ最終トレーラーが公開！｜コタク・ジャパン |archiveurl=https://archive.today/20130615224139/http://www.kotaku.jp/2013/06/rwby_new_trailer.html |archivedate=June 15, 2013 |url-status=dead |date=June 6, 2013 |work=[[Kotaku]] |location=Japan |accessdate=February 19, 2016 |trans-title=Cool mystery animation project "RWBY" series final trailer to death the public! |language=Japanese }}, translation at {{cite web|url=https://roosterteeth.com/post/3034626 |title=Translation RWBY article on kotaku.jp – Rooster Teeth |author= |date= |work=roosterteeth.com |accessdate=February 19, 2016 }}</ref>

==== Weiss Schnee ====
[[File:Kara Eberle at RTX 2013.jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|Kara Eberle, voice of Weiss Schnee]]
* Voiced By: Kara Eberle<ref name="pd 2-3"/>{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}
The 17-year-old heiress to the Schnee family, a powerful high-class family based in Atlas. Their Schnee Dust Company provides much of the worldwide supply of Dust, despite the family being targeted by the White Fang due to the immoral business ethnics of Weiss’ father Jacques, which included mistreatment of Faunus laborers.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 15}} While inheriting her family's white hair and blue eyes, Weiss gained a noticeable scar over her left eye as a result of fighting an Arma Gigas Grimm.{{Ref|Volume|White Trailer}} Weiss uses a Dust [[revolver]]/[[rapier]] named Myrtenaster. The sheath can create more than one change of elemental Dust, using a dial like silver encasement just above the bottom of her sword. The Dust crystals encrusted in the encasement allow Weiss to change the power of her sword in battle. Her Semblance is unique in the way that it is a hereditary trait in her family. Her ability consists of "Glyphs" that have a variety of push and pull effects, and the ability to summon previously defeated foes with the Arma Gigas as her primary summon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 4 & Vol. 4, Ch. 9}}

Weiss chose becoming a Huntress at Beacon Academy with aspirations of restoring her family's honor, as she disagreed her father's business methods.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 9–10}} While initially an egotistic know-it-all with some misplaced prejudice toward the Faunus, she gradually matures and gains understanding, repeatedly showing great trust in her teammates and even protecting the Faunus Velvet Scarlatina during battle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 11}} Weiss greatly admires her older sister Winter, but has a more distant relationship with the rest of her family.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3–4}} She had a crush on Neptune Vasilias during Volume 2, but gets angry with him when he flirts with other girls.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 2}}

Following the fall of Beacon in the Volume 3 finale, Weiss is taken back to Atlas by Jacques Schnee.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} In Volume 4, her relationship with her father is still strained as she eventually got disinherited and confined in her room within the Schnee Estate as the result of losing her temper during a cocktail party.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 6–7}} But once she masters summoning, Weiss escapes from her confinement with Klein's help and stows away in an airship to find Winter in Mistral.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11–12}} In Volume 5, Weiss is captured by Raven Branwen after the cargo ship crash lands in the outskirts of Anima.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 2}} However, she breaks free from her confinement and reunites with Yang.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 4}} Eventually, the two of them make their way to Mistral and reunite with Ruby.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 6}} During the Battle of Haven, Weiss is easily overpowered by Vernal and is fatally impaled by Cinder. But her life is saved when Jaune unlocks his Semblance and amplifies her Aura to enable her wound to heal.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11–13}} In Volume 6, Weiss shows great displeasure with returning to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1–2}} In Argus, she finds that she is the only one of her group that can go to the northern kingdom because she is a Schnee.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 8}} She later smuggles Maria onto an airship so they can steal it for the group, but they are then attacked by Cordovin.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10}}

In Volume 7, Weiss is reunited with Winter, but is later shocked to find that her older sister has been chosen to be the next Winter Maiden.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2 & 5}} She is disheartened when the first mission in Atlas is in an abandoned Dust mine once owned by her father. Weiss also expresses her guilt to Blake about the discrimination her family displayed to the Faunus, and she confronts Jacques and learns that her mother's condition has worsened in her absence.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3–4}} After Jacques wins the election, Weiss becomes suspicious of her father and obtains a video from her mother, Willow, about his secret meeting with Watts. She promptly exposes the video during Jacques' dinner party, which leads to his arrest.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7–9}} After defeating the Ace-Ops, Weiss is forced to part ways with Winter to escape from Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 12-13}}

Weiss alludes to [[Snow White]],<ref name="kotaku allusions japan"/> as her full name Weiss Schnee is German for "White Snow". Character designer Ein Lee said that Weiss was her favorite character among the four main girls to draw: "She's so delicate, and I love princess types."<ref name="concept art world"/>

==== Blake Belladonna ====
[[File:Arryn Zech at SDCC 2014 (14646946627) (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|Arryn Zech, voice of Blake Belladonna]]
* Voiced By: Arryn Zech<ref name="pd 2-3"/>{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}

Blake is introduced as a 17-year old [[kemonomimi|Faunus with cat ears]] with a love for books. She is the daughter of the White Fang's founder Ghira Belladonna, who formed the White Fang as a social rights advocacy group. But even as the White Fang turned into extremist paramilitary organization, Blake remained in the group against her parents' wishes until she left in disgust over Adam Taurus's disregard for civilian lives and joined Beacon Academy to make a difference as a Huntress.{{Ref|Volume|Black Trailer & Vol. 1, Ch. 2}} Blake's weapon is the Gambol Shroud, a "variant ballistic chain scythe" according to Oum<ref>{{Cite tweet | user=montyoum | first=Monty | last=Oum | authorlink=Monty Oum | number=316199253657653248 | date=March 25, 2013 | title=Blake Belladonna's weapons "Gambol Shroud" is a variant ballistic chain scythe #RWBY | accessdate=January 5, 2017 }}</ref> with a sharpened [[scabbard|sheath]] that has a [[pistol]] in the hilt, which is also attached to a long ribbon. Blake uses blade and sheath in attacking combinations, while also using the momentum of the blade anchored to an object to maneuver herself with the ribbon, even in midair. Her Semblance, "Shadow", allows her to create a hollow clone of herself that functions as an afterimage decoy while she moves in a different direction, later using Dust to give the clone an additional effect depending on the type of Dust used.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 8}}

Before Volume 4, Blake concealed her Faunus identity by hiding her cat ears under a black bow as she felt she would have experienced discrimination like other Faunus.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 2}} As a cat Faunus, Blake often exhibits feline behavior like being fearful of Ruby and Yang's pet dog Zwei and fish being her favorite food.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 8 & Vol. 3, Ch. 1}} After the Fall of Beacon, during which Yang was severely injured by Adam when she came to her aid, Blake runs off without telling anyone as she leaves for her homeland in the island nation of Menagerie to settle things with her parents.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} During Volume 4, she accepts Sun's company while discarding her bow, reunites with her parents and wants to avoid anything associated with the White Fang until Sun is attacked by Ilia Amotila.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 3, 5, & 8–9}} As Sun recovers, Blake reveals that she ran away from Team RWBY because she doesn't want anyone getting hurt because of her. Sun convinces her that she's only hurting her friends even more by pushing them away. Blake decides to take back the White Fang once learning of Adam's plan to take control of the organization and attack Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11}}

In Volume 5, following a seemingly hopeless attempt to rally the people of Menagerie to protect Haven from the White Fang, Blake wins her peoples' support when the White Fang attempt to kill her parents while redeeming Ilia.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8–10}} In the Battle of Haven, Blake leads the Menagerians and stops Adam's attack while destroying his reputation within the White Fang. After successfully defending Haven, Blake reunites with Team RWBY as she joins them in their journey to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 13–14}} Despite returning to the group, Blake still feels uneasy with Yang out of guilt for her injuries during the Fall of Beacon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1}} At an abandoned farm estate, she tries to assure Yang about facing Adam, but accidentally insults her instead.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 5}} In Argus, Blake is sent by the group to disable the radar as they steal an airship, but is interrupted by Adam who fights her. She is easily overwhelmed and her sword is destroyed, but she is eventually saved by Yang, and the two team up to defeat and kill Adam.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10–12}}

In Volume 7, Blake is haunted for causing Adam's death, even when Yang assures her that it was something that they had to do.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} Her sword is repaired by Pietro with a yellow lightning streak where the blade was broken.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} After Ironwood orders for Robyn's arrest, Blake is convinced by Yang to reveal the truth about Amity's new purpose as a CCT to the Mantle politician.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}}

Blake is an allusion to ''[[Beauty and the Beast]]'',<ref name="kotaku allusions japan"/> arguably to both Belle and the beast.

==== Yang Xiao Long ====
[[File:RTX 2016 - Barbara Dunkelman with Yang cosplayers (27983637392).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Barbara Dunkelman]], voice of Yang Xiao Long, with a group of [[cosplay]]ers dressed as Yang]]
* Voiced By: [[Barbara Dunkelman]]<ref name="pd 2-3"/>{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}

Yang, the fourth member of Team RWBY, is a blonde-haired girl and, at 17 years of age, Ruby's older half-sister. She wields twin [[shotgun]] [[gauntlet (glove)|gauntlets]] called Ember Celica.<ref>{{cite news|last=Webb|first=Charles|title=EXCLUSIVE: Rooster Teeth's 'RWBY' Yellow Trailer|url=http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2013/06/01/exclusive-rooster-teeths-rwby-yellow-trailer/|accessdate=June 10, 2013|newspaper=[[MTV.com]]|date=June 1, 2013|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130609232919/http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2013/06/01/exclusive-rooster-teeths-rwby-yellow-trailer/|archive-date=June 9, 2013|url-status=dead}}</ref> After she loses her right arm (and thus the gauntlet) in Volume 3, her replacement bionic arm is installed with a shotgun mechanism at the wrist.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 4}} In Volume 7, Yang has Pietro add sticky grenades to her arsenal.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} Her Semblance, "Burn",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> works on a "recoil-based system": whenever Yang takes a hit, her strength, toughness and striking power rise in proportion to her injuries. Her glowing hair and eye color change are caused by excess energy from the buildup, which also results in Yang often acting very "hotheaded" in battle.

Yang is the "big sister" of the group, caring deeply for her teammates. She is also very optimistic, never giving up in battle and hard times. Yang has revealed that [[#Raven Branwen|her birth mother]] left her family shortly after she was born and hasn't been seen since, which acts as a driving force for her character. She has been determined to find Raven ever since she realized that Summer Rose, Ruby's mother who also helped raise Yang, wasn't her own biological mother.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 6}} Yang wanted to become a Huntress because of the adventure, as she calls herself a thrill-seeker in search of a life where she doesn't know what lies ahead of her.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 9–10}}

Near the end of Volume 3, during the Battle of Beacon, Yang's right arm is severed by White Fang member Adam Taurus, following a desperate attempt to help a wounded Blake.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 11}} In the aftermath of the fall of Beacon, she is bedridden in her home on the island of Patch, where she has become bitter and depressed.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} After the time-skip betweens Volume 3 and 4, Yang is still on Patch, trying to get used to life with one arm. She shows signs of [[Posttraumatic stress disorder|PTSD]], having visions and nightmares of Adam cutting her arm.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 3–4}} She is also shown to be hesitant to use a bionic arm provided to her by Pietro. After an encouraging talk with her father Taiyang, Prof. Port, and Dr. Oobleck, in which Yang admits to being scared of moving on, she puts the arm on and resumes training with her father.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 4}} While sparring, Yang learns to fight without relying on her Semblance as much as she did before, and learns more about her mother from Taiyang.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 9}} In the volume finale, she arrives on the continent of Anima and heads for Mistral to find Ruby.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 12}}

In Volume 5, Yang's personality has drastically changed to a more serious tone, and her left arm frequently shakes after a fight and when she is emotionally stressed. She approaches Raven and asks her to use her Semblance to teleport her to Ruby and Qrow, and unexpectedly reunites with Weiss.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 4}} Despite her mother's attempts to convince her to forget about Ruby and join the tribe of bandits, Yang's request is ultimately granted and she and Weiss reunite with Ruby in Mistral.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 6}} She is still angry at Blake for leaving her alone after the Fall of Beacon, but calms down thanks to Weiss' counsel.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8}} In the Battle of Haven, Yang confronts Raven at the vault and successfully has her mother relinquish the Relic of Knowledge. Reuniting with her teammates, Yang forgives Blake and welcomes her back into the team.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 13–14}} In Volume 6, when Blake tries to make things up to her, Yang assures her that everything is fine and that she is happy that Team RWBY is back together. But she displays anger when she finds that Ozpin is still hiding secrets.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1–4}} Yang still has nightmares of Adam and is mad when she feels that Blake is pitying her.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 5}} In Argus, Yang saves Blake from Adam and they team up and kill him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 11–12}}

In Volume 7, Yang questions Ruby's decision to hide the truth about Salem and the Relic of Knowledge from Ironwood, and tries to comfort Blake over Adam's death.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3 & 7}} Even though she trusts her little sister, Yang proceeds with Blake to reveal Amity's new purpose to Robyn.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} But this action backfires on Yang when Ironwood finds out what she and Blake told Robyn, leading to the order for their arrest.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 11}}

Yang is an allusion to [[Goldilocks]].<ref name="kotaku allusions japan"/> Prior to the series, one of Oum's Tweets had a photograph of his computer monitor that reveals a file named "Taiyang Xiao Long", later revealed to be the name of Yang's father.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/2fxwfr/monty_oum_introduces_taiyang_the_sun_xiao_long/|title=Monty Oum "introduces" Taiyang (The Sun) Xiao Long and Penny Polendina (Geppetto's nickname) : RWBY|author=|date=|work=reddit|accessdate=February 19, 2016}}</ref>

===Team JNPR {{anchor|Team RNJR}} ===
Team JNPR (pronounced "[[juniper]]") is inspired by historical figures who had taken on the appearance of the opposite gender.<ref>{{Cite web|url = https://twitter.com/montyoum/status/398484962866786304|title = @VallenTheDark hmm, a good hint might be. All of team JNPR disguised themself in the other gender in their inspired character. |accessdate = January 10, 2018|date = November 7, 2013|last=Oum|first =Monty|publisher = Twitter|authorlink = Monty Oum}}
</ref> In Volume 4 after the loss of Pyrrha, Ruby temporarily joins their group and they informally rename themselves Team RNJR ("ranger").<ref name="ranger name"/><ref name="ranger panel"/>

==== Jaune Arc ====
[[File:Miles Luna at RTX 2015 (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|Miles Luna, voice of Jaune Arc]]
* Voiced By: Miles Luna{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}
A blond-haired student and the leader of Team JNPR who uses a sword and shield combination called [[Crocea Mors]], an heirloom formerly belonging to his great-great-grandfather. His shield can fold into a sheath for his sword, although it retains its weight.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} In Volume 4, Jaune upgraded the shield so that it can act as a second blade for the sword.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 12}} In Volume 7, the shield is further upgraded by Pietro with hardened light Dust on the sides that Jaune can use to act as a glider in air, and the crest can now hold Dust.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} His Semblance, "Aura Amp",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> allows him to amplify his Aura or that of others, and he can quickly recharge his Aura even when broken by Volume 7.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6}}

Jaune tries to appear confident in front of the girls, especially Weiss, but it often does not work out and he gets depressed over it, although because he treats Pyrrha normally, the latter is attracted to him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} In one of the Volume 1 storylines, he is bullied by Cardin Winchester, although he later stands up for his teammates by disobeying Cardin's order to prank Pyrrha, and then saves Cardin from an Ursa. Although he used fake transcripts to get into Beacon and had not attended combat school, he is supported by his schoolmates who believe in his leadership, and his partner Pyrrha later helps him train.

In the end of Volume 3, Jaune goes with Ruby, Nora and Ren to Haven in search for answers and find the ones responsible for the events at Vale and Beacon, as well as Pyrrha's death.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} In Volume 4, he has Crocea Mors upgraded with accents from Pyrrha's old armor, and wears a sash around his waist in her memory,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 1}} and continues to be heavily affected by her death.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 2 & 8}} In Volume 5, Jaune works under Ozpin's guidance to find out what his Semblance is.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 4}} In the Battle of Haven, upon being confronted by Cinder Fall, Jaune fights her to avenge Pyrrha but is easily overpowered. After Weiss is fatally impaled by Cinder, Jaune unlocks his Semblance and saves her from certain death.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11–13}} In Volume 6, Jaune is able to see his older sister, Saffron, when the group arrives at Argus.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 7}} Upon learning of Ozpin and Salem's past, he lashes out at Oscar for being Ozpin's vessel. But upon finding Pyrrha's statue and coming to terms with her death, Jaune makes amends with Oscar and offers a plan of stealing an Atlesian airship to get to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 8–9}}

In Volume 7, Jaune begins his Huntsman career protecting preschoolers in Mantle, while also attracting the affections of young women.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 4–5}} This experience will later prove useful for him as he leads one of the evacuations during the Battle of Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 10}}

His name is a reference to the French heroine [[Joan of Arc]].

==== Nora Valkyrie ====
* Voiced By: Samantha Ireland,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}} Kristen McGuire (Young)
An orange-haired student at Beacon who carries Magnhild, a [[war hammer]] that can be converted into a [[grenade launcher]]. Her Semblance, "High Voltage",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> is the production and manipulation of electricity, allowing her to channel the energy to her muscles and gain superhuman strength.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 2}} Nora is very talkative and hyperactive, which tends to annoy her teammates, but she's also the most positive member of the team, almost always staying upbeat. But she displays a serious side when necessary, as when she tries to protect Ruby from Tyrian and when she calms Ren down during their battle with the Nuckelavee.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 6 & 12}} She and Ren are long-time friends, though Jaune briefly assumes the two are a couple, which causes Nora to quickly say that they're not "together-together", which indicates that Nora's relationship with Ren is more akin to a brother-sister relationship.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} In a flashback in Volume 4, it's revealed that Nora was living on the streets of Kuroyuri when she was a child, presumably an orphan, and when the village was attacked by Grimm, Ren saved her, beginning their friendship.

In the end of Volume 3, Nora goes with Ruby, Jaune and Ren to Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} In Volume 4, Nora has upgraded Magnhild, so that it can apparently hold a stronger electric charge.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 1}} In the finale, she and Ren become a couple after their fight with the Nuckelavee.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 12}}

In Volume 7, Nora is disheartened when Ren gives her the cold shoulder during their first mission in Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} But she is able to kiss him during Robyn's political rally before chaos ensues.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6}} After Ironwood increases the military in Mantle following Jacques' electoral victory, Nora loses her temper as she berates the general for allowing Mantle to suffer while Amity is being rebuilt.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}}

Her first name comes from the [[Nora Barlow#Legacy|Nora Barlow Columbine]],{{citation needed|date=October 2017}} while her last name, "[[Valkyrie]]", is inspired by the female warriors found in [[Norse mythology]]. She alludes to the Norse god [[Thor]].{{citation needed|date=October 2017}}

==== Pyrrha Nikos ====
[[File:Jen Brown at RTX 2011.jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|Jen Brown, voice of Pyrrha Nikos]]
* Voiced By: Jen Brown{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}
A red-haired student with a long ponytail and bright green eyes. She wielded Miló, a [[javelin]] that could transform into a rifle or a [[xiphos]] sword, and a shield called Akoúo̱. Her Semblance is "Polarity", which is the ability to manipulate objects with magnetism.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} Prior to enrolling at Beacon, she graduated from Sanctum Academy with highest honors and had a record number of wins at a regional tournament for Huntsmen and Huntresses, landing her a cover photo on a Pumpkin Pete's cereal box.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} Due to her reputation, she has found forming relationships with others difficult because others often assume she is "too good for them" and that she is "at a level they simply cannot obtain".{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2}} When Jaune ignores that and treats her normally, she becomes attracted to him{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2}} and chooses him as her partner during the initiation.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} In Volume 3, Ozpin selects her to be the next Fall Maiden as he and Ironwood are forced to execute the transference by transplanting Amber's dying soul into her body, which Pyrrha feared as it would either kill her or she would no longer be herself.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 6 & 8}} Though Pyrrha decides to go through with it, Cinder kills Amber to complete her transition into the Fall Maiden. Pyrrha attempts to stop Cinder after getting Jaune to safety, but is overpowered and incinerated.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}}. Pyrrha's death affected Ruby, who saw her die and awakened her power, and Jaune, who uses a training video she made for him where she nearly confesses her feelings for him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 2}} But Jaune eventually moves on after coming across a memorial statue of Pyrrha in Argus, inspiring him and his fellow surviving JNPR teammates to continue their mission.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 9}}

Monty Oum stated that Pyrrha was given her name for her red hair,<ref>https://twitter.com/montyoum/status/424787997100630016</ref> and her full name is a reference to a [[Pyrrhic victory]].<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GllDpEqx6Fw&t=2868 RTX 2016 RWBY Panel (Saturday)]</ref> She also alludes to [[Achilles]] from [[Homer]]'s ''[[The Iliad]]''.{{citation needed|date=October 2017}}

==== Lie Ren ====
[[File:Monty Oum at PAX Prime 2013 (9669012406) (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Monty Oum]], voice of Lie Ren (Volumes 1 and 2)]]
* Voiced By: [[Monty Oum]] (Volumes 1–2),{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}} Neath Oum (Volume 3–present),<ref>{{cite conference |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8_34G51AJ4&t=24m30s |time=24:30 |title=RWBY Panel |last1=Shawcross |first1=Kerry |last2=Luna |first2=Miles |last3=Haddock |first3=Gray |authorlink3=Gray Haddock |last4=Jones |first4=Lindsay |authorlink4=Lindsay Jones (actress) |last5=Dunkelman |first5=Barbara |authorlink5=Barbara Dunkelman |last6=Eberle |first6=Kara |last7=Zech |first7=Arryn |conference=[[RTX (event)|RTX]] |location=[[Austin, Texas]] |date=August 7, 2015 |accessdate=August 8, 2015 }}</ref> [[Apphia Yu]] (Young)
A black-haired student at Beacon who dual wields [[machine pistol]]s with attached blades, collectively called StormFlower. In Volume 7, Pietro upgraded StormFlower so the blades can be projected from the guns to act as grappling hooks.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} His Semblance, "Tranquility",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> masks negative emotion, which allows him and his targets to avoid detection from Grimm.<ref>Volume 4 Directors Commentary 2:26:27</ref> He and Nora are long-time friends, though he is the exact opposite of her, as he is mostly quiet, mellow and mature.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} Originally from Kuroyuri village in the Anima continent, Ren lost his parents during a Grimm attack by Nuckelavee with his awakened Semblance allowing him and Nora to be the only survivors of the attack.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 10}} Joining Ruby alongside Jaune and Nora to Haven in the Volume 3 finale,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} Ren is able to avenge his parents when they encounter Nuckelavee after ending up in Kuroyuri, and reciprocate Nora's feelings for him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 12}}

In Volume 7, Ren's relationship with Nora turns for the worse when he ignores her affections for him during their first mission in Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} He becomes more focused on training and going on missions, and admits to Nora that he has a hard time expressing his feelings. But Ren is kissed by Nora, and he returns his affections for her before chaos erupts at Robyn's political rally.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6}} Afterwards, he becomes colder when he accepts Ironwood's order to arrest Robyn and find out who Tyrian is working for.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} In the finale, Ren becomes angry when he allows himself to be fooled by Neo's illusion of Nora, leading to him being bested by the illusionist.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 13}}

While his name in Chinese (猎人) translates to "huntsman", Ren (蓮) is also Japanese for "lotus", which is his emblem. He alludes to the legendary Chinese hero Hua Mulan.

Although the character was originally voiced by the series creator, Monty Oum, his brother Neath Oum would later replace him as the voice actor from Volume 3 to the present, following Monty's death in 2015.<ref>[http://roosterteeth.com/post/51200631 Wanted to share my thoughts and feelings. =)], Neath Oum</ref>

=== Qrow Branwen ===
[[File:Vic Mignogna by Gage Skidmore.jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Vic Mignogna]], former voice of Qrow Branwen]]
* Voiced by: [[Vic Mignogna]] (Volumes 3–6), [[Jason Liebrecht]] (Volume 7–present)

A cool-headed and nonchalant instructor at Signal Academy with a heavy drinking habit, Qrow is Raven's younger twin brother, making him Yang's biological uncle and an honorary uncle to Ruby. He was the fourth member of Team STRQ. Having taught Ruby to wield her Crescent Rose,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 1}} his weapon, Harbinger,<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/7x3w4s/crwby_ama_w_miles_luna_kerry_shawcross_and_paula/du5b3d8/ |title=CRWBY AMA|website=Reddit}}</ref> is a giant sword that can transform into a cannon or a scythe. Volume 6 reveals that he based Harbinger's design off of Maria's weapons because he admired her as the Grimm Reaper.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 7}} His Semblance, "Misfortune",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> brings negative probability to those around him, and unlike other Huntsmen, his is always active and uncontrollable.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 8}}

As revealed in Volume 5, being originally part of the Branwen Tribe, he and Raven were sent into Beacon to be trained as Hunters to give their people an advantage against Hunters. But Qrow renounces his kin for being killers and thieves, becoming a member of Ozpin's inner circle while given the ability to transform into a crow to serve as Ozpin's spy.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12 & Vol. 5, Ch. 7}} Having being mentioned in the first two Volumes, Qrow makes his debut in Volume 3 as he reveals to Ozpin that their enemies are making a move on Beacon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 2–3}}

After the Fall of Beacon, Qrow tells Ruby that he specifically worked for Ozpin and resolve to continue in the man's stead while discreetly following Team RNJR as they head for Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} In Volume 4, Qrow continues to watch over the team discreetly while having an encounter Raven in Higanbana where he questions his twin's callousness towards Yang while questioning her of the Spring Maiden's location.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 4}} Qrow ends up revealing himself to Ruby when Tyrian attacks her group and ends up being poisoned by Tyrian's stinger, revealing most of what he knew to Team RNJR as they manage to get him to Mistral for a quick recovery.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 6–12}} In Volume 5, following a meeting with Lionheart, Qrow is reunited with Ozpin when meets Oscar.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 12}} Leaving RNJR in Ozpin's care, Qrow attempts to find some to Huntsmen help protect the Relic of Knowledge and learns they all died during their missions.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 3 & 6}} In the Battle of Haven, furious upon realizing Lionheart's role in the deaths of Mistral's hunters, Qrow disowns Raven when she allied herself with Salem. In the aftermath, after he receives the Relic from Yang, Qrow is instructed by Ozpin to take it to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11 & 14}} In Volume 6, Qrow's faith in Ozpin is destroyed when he learns of his leader's past and lack of a plan to destroy Salem.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 4}} His alcoholism worsens and causes problems for the group, especially for Ruby.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 6 & 8–9}} Qrow initially turns down Jaune's plan of stealing an airship to get to Atlas, but his arguments is stopped by Ruby.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 9}} As the group goes through with the plan, Qrow starts to panic when things start to go wrong and he blames himself for it.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10}} After the fights with Cordovin and the Leviathan, Qrow begins to abstain from alcohol.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 5}}

In Volume 7, Qrow is at awe with Clover because of his good fortune Semblance and bonds with him. After the Beacon students receive their Huntsman licenses, Qrow assures Ruby that her actions are morally right while opening up with her about Summer.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3–5}} Qrow teams up with Clover during the Battle of Mantle to help Robyn subdue Tyrian, only for Tyrian to kill Clover, and Qrow, along with Robyn, to be arrested by Atlesian forces for Clover's death.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 10–13}}

Qrow alludes to [[Huginn and Muninn|Muninn]] from Norse mythology and is based on the [[Scarecrow (Oz)|Scarecrow]] from ''The Wonderful Wizard of Oz''.<ref name="Backwardz Compatible"/>

In February 2019, Rooster Teeth announced that Mignogna would no longer be part of the cast of ''RWBY'' amid accusations of sexual harassment.<ref name="MignognaLetGo">{{cite web |last1=Loveridge |first1=Lynzee |title=Vic Mignogna No Longer a Member of RWBY Cast |url=https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-02-04/vic-mignogna-no-longer-a-member-of-rwby-cast/.142946 |website=Anime News Network |language=en}}</ref> The following July, Liebrecht was announced as the new voice of Qrow.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Shawcross |first1=Kerry |title=RWBY VOLUME 7 UPDATES AND RWBY AT RTX! |url=https://roosterteeth.com/post/52042062 |website=Rooster Teeth |language=en |date=July 1, 2019 |accessdate=July 1, 2019}}</ref>

=== Maria Calavera ===
* Voiced by: Melissa Sternenberg

An elderly woman with prosthetic eyes, though she cannot see color with them.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 6}} She was originally a silver-eyed Huntress known as the Grimm Reaper before being blinded by the Faunus assassin Tock. The cane she uses was one of her two [[Kama (weapon)|kamas]], Life and Death, that combine at the ends to form a twin-bladed weapon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 7}} Her Semblance, which she calls "Preflexes", allows her to react to attacks almost before they happen. Unlike most Hunters, due to the risk of being targeted by Salem, Maria was trained by her father instead of attending a school.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 8}} She meets Team RWBY, Qrow and Oscar after they crash-land into the snow region of northern Anima.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1}} Upon learning that Ruby has silver eyes, Maria teaches her to consciously use her powers when they are attacked by the Apathy Grimm.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 6}} In Argus, she becomes a mentor to Ruby and shares what she knows about the silver eyes.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 8}} She is later smuggled onto a military airship by Weiss to pilot it to the rest of the group, but the pair is then attacked by Cordovin's giant robot. Maria pilots the ship to provide air support for the group, and later to fly the group to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10–13}}

In Volume 7, Maria takes the heroes to Pietro so they can find a safe way to Ironwood. She is the only member of the group to avoid being captured by the Ace-Ops.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 1}} Maria later gives moral support to Pietro after Penny is framed for murder.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} In the volume finale, Maria secures an airship to help Teams RWBY and JNR, Pietro and Penny to escape Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 13}}

===Ozma===
Ozma is an ancient warrior who has been reincarnated by the God of Light to defeat Salem. While Ozma is named after [[Princess Ozma]] from the [[List of Oz books|Oz]] book series, his reincarnations reference the [[Wizard of Oz (character)|title character]] of ''[[The Wonderful Wizard of Oz]]''.

==== Ozma ====
[[File:Shannon McCormick at RTX 2013 (9432451018) (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|Shannon McCormick, voice of Professor Ozpin and Ozma]]
* Voiced by [[Aaron Dismuke]] and [[Shannon McCormick]]
An ancient warrior who was Salem's lover before he died from an illness. As Salem's desire to resurrect Ozma resulted in her rebellion against the gods, Ozma is brought back to life by the God of Light to stop her. But even vowing to reincarnate forever until Salem is defeated, Jinn reveals that Ozma cannot kill his former lover.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 3}} Every time he dies, his soul transmigrates into a new like-minded host, allowing him to take control of his host body while both can access each other's memories with Professor Ozpin his current incarnation at the start of the series and referred as such before his origins are revealed.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 3}} One of his past incarnations was the basis of the wizard from a story based on the creation of the first Maidens, another being a king who fought through war.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 7}} Though he is stoic and affable to those around him and can be blunt at times, he is a humble man who deeply cares for his students despite admitting to be slightly mistrustful due to countless acts of betrayal he suffered across his past lives.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1–2}}

==== Ozpin ====
* Voiced by [[Shannon McCormick]]{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}
The headmaster of Beacon Academy, armed with a [[Walking stick|cane]], The Long Memory,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> which has numerous functions that include serving as a melee weapon capable of generating a protective force field.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} Despite appearances, Ozpin is gradually revealed as Ozma's reincarnation.

It is not really known if Ozpin was really killed by Cinder in the Volume 3 finale, but his soul or part of it transmigrated into the body of Oscar Pine, whom he urged to reach Haven where he is reunited with Qrow.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12 & Vol. 4, Ch. 1 & 7}} In Volume 5, Ozpin tasks Qrow to find Huntsmen to protect the Relic of Knowledge while he personally trains Team RNJR and Oscar for their eventual fight with fight Salem.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 3}} After the Relic is secured following the Battle of Haven, Ozpin has Oscar instruct Qrow to bring it to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 14}} In Volume 6, having promised earlier to be forthright with Yang and the others, Ozpin comes under fire for still withholding vital information as he admits to be slightly mistrustful due to countless acts of betrayal he suffered across his past lives.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1–2}} After his secret past is exposed by Jinn, he loses everyone's trust and he seals himself within Oscar's mind.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 4}} However, during the airship heist in Argus, Ozpin guides Oscar in landing the airship, hinting that he has been aware of the group's activities after the train crash.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}}

In the finale of Volume 7, Ozpin emerges from Oscar's mind after the farmboy is knocked out of Atlas by Ironwood and guides him to safely land on Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 13}}

==== Oscar Pine ====
* Voiced by [[Aaron Dismuke]]{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4 credits}}
A young farm boy who appears in Volume 4 and lives with his aunt before starting to hear Ozpin's voice mysteriously communicating to him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 4}} It would later be revealed that Oscar has become Ozpin's new vessel following his demise in the Volume 3 finale. A reluctant Oscar eventually complies with Ozpin's request to travel to Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 7 & 10}} Once in Mistral, Oscar meets Qrow and receives Ozpin's cane as he joins Ruby's group, while revealing he can become a temporary medium for them to directly communicate with Ozpin.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 12 & Vol. 5, Ch. 1 & 3}} He later trains alongside Team RNJR to strengthen his Aura and discover his Semblance.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 4}} In Volume 6, Oscar is able to resist Ozpin's control and helps Ruby to summon Jinn, only to end up being ostracized by most of the others by extension, when they lose trust in Ozpin.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 2 & 4}} In Argus, Oscar is assaulted by Jaune and leaves the group for a while to have time to himself, acquiring a change of clothes, before returning to the group to help them with the time he has left as himself.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 8–9}} In the fight against Cordovin, Oscar is able to figure out the Colossus' weakness, helping Ruby to defeat it. Later, during the group's flight to Atlas, Oscar admits that he was guided by Ozpin in crash-landing the airship.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 12–13}}

In Volume 7, Oscar is entrusted with the Relic of Knowledge by Ruby while the others go on their first mission in Atlas. But he is uneasy with Ruby's decision to hide what they know about Salem and the Relic from Ironwood, as he feels that they are doing the same as what Ozpin did to them.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} Oscar then trains under Ironwood, fighting with Team JNR against Team FNKI at one point.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 5}} After learning about the Relic of Creation, Oscar advises Ironwood to reach out to those he fears and try to gain their trust.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} When the Huntsmen mobilize to head for Mantle, Oscar stays behind in Atlas to tell Ironwood about Salem's immortality.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 9}} He is later attacked by Neo and loses the Relic of Knowledge to her, despite receiving help from Team JNR. Oscar then heads for the Vault to talk sense to Ironwood, but to no avail as the general shoots him out of Atlas. However, Oscar receives guidance from Ozpin to save themselves from death.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 11–13}}

=== Penny Polendina ===
* Voiced by: Taylor (Pelto) McNee (English):{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 & Vol. 3, Ch. 5, 12, credits}}

An orange-haired student who came to the Vytal festival to compete in the combat tournament. She wields Floating Array:<ref name="World of RWBY"/> a small backpack which contains an array of gun-bladed weapons and wires. She can also use the swords as an energy beam cannon. She is known to act awkwardly around people, though she quickly becomes friends with Ruby.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 15}}

In Volume 2, it is revealed that Penny is an android capable of generating an Aura. But in Volume 7, her creator Pietro reveals that her Aura was originally a part of his.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 4 & Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} In Volume 3, she reveals her body is vulnerable to magnets.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 5}} During Penny's battle against Pyrrha in the Vytal Festival, Pyrrha is affected by Emerald's hallucinating Semblance, reflecting Penny's attack, causing the wires connected to her swords to tear her apart. {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 9}}

In Volume 7, Penny is shown to have been rebuilt sometime after the fall of Beacon, and upgraded with thrusters in her feet allowing her to fly. She has become the protector of Mantle and part of Ironwood's inner circle, {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 1–2}} but no longer has a team, and is ordered by the general not to focus on making friends.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 5}} Penny is later framed for massacring several of Robyn's supporters by Watts and Tyrian during a political rally, and Mantle demands for Penny to be destroyed.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6–7}} Her name is later cleared when Jacques' secret meeting with Watts is exposed, and she joins the Huntsmen as they head for Mantle to fight off the Grimm, regaining the people's trust in her.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 9–10}} While helping Winter in receiving the Winter Maiden's power, Penny ends up inheriting the Maiden's power while confronted by Cinder, joining Team RWBY soon after in fleeing Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 12-13}}

Penny alludes to the character [[Pinocchio]], hiccuping every time she tells a lie.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 3}}

==Supporting characters==
=== Team STRQ ===
[[File:Burnie Burns' 2014 VidCon Keynote - cropped.jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Burnie Burns]], voice of Taiyang Xiao Long]]
Team STRQ (pronounced "stark") is a now-defunct team composed of Ruby and Yang's relatives, commented to have similarities to Team RWBY like being favored by Ozpin.
* {{vanchor|Summer Rose}} The presumed leader of Team STRQ, and the mother of Ruby and stepmother of Yang whose gravestone is frequently visited by Ruby. She is later revealed to be the second lover to Yang and Ruby's father, Taiyang, the first being Yang's mother, Raven, but whether she married him is currently unknown.<ref>{{cite web|last1=Oum|first1=Monty|title=Official tweet at 3:14 PM – 23 Jul 14|url=https://twitter.com/montyoum/status/492070189731565568|website=Twitter|accessdate=July 23, 2014}}</ref> Based on an old photograph of her, Summer wore a white hooded cloak, similar to the red cloak Ruby would later wear. According to Yang, Summer went on a mission but never came back and her death deeply affected Ruby and Taiyang. Prior to her disappearance, Yang says that she remembered Summer as a "Super Mom", able to handle being a loving parent as well as able to go on dangerous missions.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 6}} In the Volume 6 finale, Summer is shown in person during a flashback, revealing that she, like her daughter, possesses silver eyes.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}}. In Volume 7, Qrow tells Ruby that even Ozpin did not know the nature of Summer's last mission, Salem revealing herself as the one who killed Summer.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 4 & 11}} Her full name is a reference to the poem, ''[[The Last Rose of Summer]]'', and her gravestone has a line from the poem, "Thus kindly I scatter." {{Ref|Volume|Red Trailer}}
* {{vanchor|Taiyang Xiao Long}} Voiced by: [[Burnie Burns]]{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3 credits}}: Yang and Ruby's father, only mentioned many times in the first two Volumes before appearing out of focus seen when Ruby visits Summer's grave.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 1}} He appears in the Volume 3 finale where he watches over his daughters in their home in Patch as they recover from the battle of Beacon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} Taiyang is mentioned to be a bit overprotective of both of his daughters, and loves them dearly.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} Like Qrow, he is also a teacher at Signal.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 1}} In Volume 4, Taiyang receives a bionic arm for Yang from Ironwood, and encourages Yang to gradually accept the prosthesis while helping her learn to not depend too much on her Semblance and opening up about Raven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 3–4 & 9}} When Yang is about to leave, he asks her whether she is going after Raven or Ruby.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11}} In the finale of Volume 5, Taiyang is confronted by Raven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 14}} His name, Taiyang (太阳), is Chinese for "sun."
* {{vanchor|[[#Raven Branwen|Raven Branwen]]}}
* {{vanchor|[[#Qrow Branwen|Qrow Branwen]]}}

===Beacon Academy/Vale===
{{multiple image
| total_width = 390
| image2 = Kathleen Zuelch at RTX 2013 (9432370604) (cropped).jpg
| width2 = 1044 | height2 = 1272
| alt2 = Kathleen Zuelch at RTX 2013
| caption2 = Kathleen Zuelch, voice of Glynda Goodwitch
| image3 = Ryan Haywood (cropped).jpg
| width3 = 579 | height3 = 857
| alt3 = Ryan Haywood at RTX 2014
| caption3 = Ryan Haywood, voice of Peter Port
| image4 = Joel Heyman (cropped).jpg
| width4 = 1810 | height4 = 2421
| alt4 = Joel Heyman at PAX Prime 2012
| caption4 = [[Joel Heyman]], voice of Dr. Bartholomew Oobleck
}}
* {{vanchor|Glynda Goodwitch}} Voiced by: Kathleen Zuelch{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}: A Huntress and teacher at Beacon Academy{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} who wields a [[Crop (implement)|riding crop]], The Disciplinarian,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> as her weapon, in a similar fashion as a magic wand, and whose Semblance is "Telekinesis". With her Semblance, not only can she control objects, but can also repair those which were broken before. She mostly teaches combat classes, tends to be more stern and strict with her students, and is apparently only behind Ozpin in rank at Beacon. In Volume 4, Port and Oobleck reveal that Goodwitch is working to restore Beacon to its former glory.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 4}} Her name is derived from the character [[Glinda the Good Witch]] of ''The Wonderful Wizard of Oz''.
* {{vanchor|Professor Peter Port|Port}} Voiced by: Ryan Haywood{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}: A veteran Huntsman and teacher at Beacon Academy, and is an expert on fighting different creatures of Grimm. His weapon, Blowhead,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> is a [[blunderbuss]] that has [[axe]] blades attached to the stock. In Volume 4, it is Port who tells Yang that she needs to handle her fears. It is also shown that he is [[Fear of mice|afraid of mice]].{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 4}} His name and his tale of taking on a Beowolf in his youth alludes to ''[[Peter and the Wolf]]''.
* {{vanchor|Dr. Bartholomew Oobleck|Oobleck}} Voiced by: [[Joel Heyman]] {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}: A teacher at Beacon Academy, teaching Remnant history. His weapon of choice is Antiquity's Roast,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> a [[Vacuum flask|thermos]] (from which he drinks coffee out of) that can also transform into a [[flamethrower]]. He frequently sips coffee and moves around and speaks at an extremely accelerated rate. Despite his bumbling nature, he is actually very wise and knowledgeable, choosing to learn from mankind's past mistakes so that they won't happen again in the future. Unlike other Huntsmen who fight, Oobleck chooses to defend people by passing his knowledge on to other Huntsmen and Huntresses. He believes that knowledge is the most powerful weapon from all of them.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 9}} He is named after the children's book ''[[Bartholomew and the Oobleck]]'' by [[Dr. Seuss]].

====Team CRDL====
[[File:Adam Ellis at RTX 2014.jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|Adam Ellis, voice of Cardin Winchester]]
Team CRDL (pronounced "[[Cardinal (bird)|cardinal]]") is formed as another first year team at Beacon Academy, alongside RWBY and JNPR.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 8}}
* {{vanchor|Cardin Winchester}} Voiced by: Adam Ellis {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}: A burnt orange-haired student and the leader of Team CRDL. He wears silver-gray armor and wields a giant [[mace (bludgeon)|mace]] called The Executioner.<ref name="World of RWBY"/> Cardin has a reputation as a bully, he and the rest of his team are shown to be picking on several fellow students. After he finds out that Jaune Arc faked his application to Beacon, he is briefly able to manipulate him into doing his bidding. He also, alongside the rest of his team, bullies Velvet Scarlatina because of her being a Faunus.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 11–14}} Cardin alludes to the [[Henry Beaufort|Cardinal of Winchester]] who presided over the [[Trial of Joan of Arc]].<ref>[https://twitter.com/TheMilesLuna/status/383642357473624064 Miles Luna's Twitter]</ref>
* {{vanchor|Russel Thrush}} Voiced by: Shane Newville {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}: A green-haired student who wields a pair of Dust-[[daggers]], Shortwings,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> as a shout out to [[Will Scarlet]]. His last name comes from the [[Thrush (bird)|thrush]] bird.
* {{vanchor|Dove Bronzewing}}: A light brown-haired student who fights with a [[long sword]] called Hallshott that can fire bullets.<ref name="World of RWBY"/> He is named after the [[Columbidae|bird]] often used as a symbol for peace, and his last name is a reference to [[bronzewing pigeon|a pigeon of the same name]].
* {{vanchor|Sky Lark}}: A dark blue-haired student whose weapon is a [[halberd]] called Feather's Edge.<ref name="World of RWBY"/> His full name is derived from the [[lark]]s of the genus ''[[Alauda]]''.

====Team CFVY====
{{multiple image
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| image1 = Ashley Jenkins at PAX Prime 2014 (15139095806) (cropped).jpg
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| alt1 = Ashley Jenkins at PAX Prime 2014
| caption1 = [[Ashley Jenkins]], voice of Coco Adel
| image2 = Caiti Ward at PAX Prime 2013.jpg
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| alt2 = Caiti Ward at PAX Prime 2013
| caption2 = Caiti Ward, voice of Velvet Scarlatina
}}
Team CFVY (pronounced "[[coffee]]") consists of second-year Beacon Academy students. Velvet Scarlatina first appears in Volume 1, {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 11}}, while the others begin appearing in Volume 2.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 8}} They serve as the protagonists of ''RWBY: After the Fall'' novel series, having been transferred to Shade Academy in Vacuo following the Fall of Beacon. The team's members have a red and brown color scheme and are named after desserts.

* {{vanchor|Coco Adel}} Voiced by: [[Ashley Jenkins|Ashley Burns]]: A fashionably-dressed girl with military-themed accessories and wields her weapon Gianduja, a briefcase that transforms into a minigun. Its destructive power is magnified due to her "Hype" Semblance, allowing her Aura to enhance the effect and power of anything Dust-based.<ref name="After the Fall">{{cite book |title=RWBY: After the Fall}}</ref> Her name is derived from ''[[Chocolate|Cocoa]]'', theorized to be based on [[Coco Chanel]].
* {{vanchor|Fox Alistair}} A young, black, blind man who was an orphan living in Vacuo before attending Beacon, wearing an orange vest and armed with his weapon Sharp Retribution, a pair of wrist-mounted blades. His Semblance is "Telepathy", which allows him to compensate for his blindness while allowing him to communicate with his teammates.<ref name="After the Fall"/> His name is derived from fox hunter pie.
* {{vanchor|Velvet Scarlatina}} Voiced by: Caiti Ward {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}: A brown-haired Faunus with rabbit ears at Beacon Academy. Monty has described her combat style to be very mage-like, along with being very agile. Her weapon, Anesidora, is a camera that she uses to take pictures of other students' weapons, which allows her to conjure holographic copies of their weapons, but can only be used once per picture. She uses her weapon in conjunction with her Semblance, "Photographic Memory",<ref name="After the Fall"/> which allows her to mimic other people's moves.<ref>Volume 3 Director's Commentary</ref> [[Rooster Teeth]] held a fan contest to design her combat uniform, the result of which was announced on March 6, 2014.<ref name="pd 2-1">{{cite web |last=Oum |first=Monty |title=RWBY: Volume 2: Production Diary 1 |url=http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?id=8850 |work=Rooster Teeth|publisher=Rooster Teeth|accessdate=April 9, 2014}}</ref> Her name is derived from ''[[The Velveteen Rabbit]]'' and [[red velvet cake]].{{citation needed|date=December 2016}}
* {{vanchor|Yatsuhashi Daichi}} Voiced by: Joe MacDonald: The final member of team CFVY, Yatsuhashi is a tall male in a green one-sleeved robe armed with Fulcrum, a long sword. His Semblance, "Memory Wiping", allows him to erase a person's memories when he touches them, trivial memories permanently lost while the timing that important ones are later recalled within a duration of time equal to how long Yatsuhashi was touching that person.<ref name="After the Fall"/> His name comes from [[Yatsuhashi|the Japanese treat of the same name]], and his name was revealed in a series of tweets of the treat by Monty culminating in a singular image of [[Yatsuhashi Kengyo]] along with the phrase "You'll figure it out".<ref>https://twitter.com/montyoum/status/486348998186262529</ref>

===Junior's faction===
[[File:Jack Pattillo 2012-1.jpg|thumb|upright=.59|alt=Jack Pattillo at PAX Prime 2012|Jack Pattillo, voice of Hei "Junior" Xiong]]
* {{vanchor|Hei "Junior" Xiong|Junior}} Voiced by: Jack Shannon Pattillo: A club manager who fights Yang in the "Yellow" trailer. His weapon is a [[bazooka]] that can change into a [[club (weapon)|large bat-like club]]. He has some sort of connection to Torchwick, as the two were seen briefly together at the club and Roman initially recruited Junior's minions for his early dust robberies before replacing the henchmen with White Fang members.{{Ref|Volume|Yellow Trailer & Vol. 1, Ch. 1}}. Later on in Volume 2, Yang visits him in his club again, hoping to get some lead on Torchwick's plans.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 4}} His name means "black bear" in Chinese, with his nickname alluding to the baby bear from Goldilocks.
* {{vanchor|Melanie and Miltiades "Miltia" Malachite|Melanie and Miltia}} Voiced by Maggie Tominey: A pair of black-haired twins who work for Junior. Melanie fights with bladed heels while Miltia utilizes a pair of claws.{{Ref|Volume|Yellow Trailer}} The names Melanie and Miltiades are Greek for "blackness" and "red earth" respectively, and their surname comes from [[Malachite|the green stone of the same name]]. They are altered designs of the first design of Ruby and Weiss.<ref>{{cite tweet |user=montyoum |number=349795637824466944 |title=Fun Fact: Melanie & Miltia are built off of early versions of Weiss and Ruby |date=June 26, 2013 |access-date=June 10, 2017 |first=Monty |last=Oum}}</ref>

===Atlas Academy/Atlas===
====Atlesian Military====
=====General James Ironwood=====
[[File:Jason Rose.jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|Jason Rose, voice of General Ironwood]]
* Voiced by: Jason Rose

Headmaster of Atlas Academy and a renowned military leader, also being a member of Ozpin's inner circle despite disagreeing with him over using military force to handle threats head-on. According to Glynda, he tends to take his work with him wherever he goes. His weapons, collectively called Due Process, are a pair of revolvers. In Volume 3, it is revealed that Ironwood has a robotic right arm, torso and leg.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 11}}

In his debut in Volume 2, Ironwood brings his military forces, which puts him at odds with Ozpin immediately.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 2}} After Torchwick's attack on Vale, Ironwood is put in charge of security for the tournament by the council.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 12}} But in Volume 3, Ironwood is unable for use his forces to fight off the Grimm, as they are either destroyed or hacked.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 9-11}} In Volume 4, Ironwood has returned to Atlas to continue his duties as General and Headmaster of Atlas. It is shown that he is a close friend of the Schnee family, despite his strained friendship with Jacques over putting an embargo on Dust exportation and then closing off Atlas's borders to prevent another war.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 2 & 11}}

By Volume 7, Ironwood plans to restore global communications by turning Amity Colosseum into a CCT tower, and to reveal Salem's existence to the world, which is why he called all of Atlas back to the kingdom to fight the Grimm that will flock to them when panic breaks out.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2}} But with Watts and Tyrian causing chaos in Mantle, Ironwood slowly descends into paranoia and starts to make irrational decisions, including the order for Robyn's arrest for stealing supplies for Amity.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} He is able to regain his composure long enough to reveal Salem's existence to the council, order the evacuation of Mantle, and lure and defeat Watts in Amity. But Ironwood's paranoia returns when Salem demands for the Relics, prompting him to move Atlas away and abandon Mantle while ordering the arrest of Teams RWBY and JNR, Qrow and Oscar when they oppose his decision.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 9-11}} In the finale, Ironwood turns on Oscar and shoots him out of the Vault, and is devastated when he learns from Winter that the Maiden powers are gone, preventing him from using the Relic of Creation to move Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 13}}

Ironwood alludes to the [[Tin Woodman]] from ''The Wonderful Wizard of Oz''.<ref>Volume 3 DVD Cast Commentary</ref>

=====Winter Schnee=====
* Voiced by: Elizabeth Maxwell

Weiss' elder sister and Ironwood's right hand in the military, armed with a [[saber]] with a detachable [[estoc]]. Like Weiss, having left the Schnee family to make a difference, Winter inherited their family's "Glyphs" Semblance, which she fully mastered to easily summon constructs modeled after defeated Grimm. While dignified and distant, Winter deeply cares for Weiss and is ill-tempered, as shown when Qrow insulted the Atlas military while provoking her to fight him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3 Ch. 3}}

While Volume 4 explains Winter is in Mistral after the fall of Beacon to uncover an impending threat that is rising from the kingdom, Volume 5 reveals she was called back to Atlas when Ironwood closed the kingdom's borders.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11 & Vol. 5, Ch. 3}} By Volume 7, Winter has become part of Ironwood's inner circle, and is chosen by the general to become the next Winder Maiden. Despite having the choice made by Ironwood, Winter sees the task as a privilege for her to do good in Remnant.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2 & 5}} After the Battle of Mantle, Winter proceeds to get the Maiden powers from Fria but the power is transferred to Penny instead while they are attacked by Cinder. Severely injured by the Fall Maiden, Winter refuses help from Weiss but allows her, Ruby and Penny to escape with their group. She later reports to Ironwood that they lost the Maiden powers{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 11–13}}

=====Caroline Cordovin=====
* Voiced by: [[Mela Lee]]

The special operative in charge in Argus. Cordovin is a prideful and arrogant woman who looks down on all non-Atlesians, and is emotionally unstable, especially when provoked. Upon meeting the group of heroes, she refuses to allow any of them to go to Atlas, except for Weiss. She also has a bad history with Maria.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 8}} When the group tries to steal a military airship, Cordovin overreacts by piloting a giant mech called the Colossus to attack them. After seemingly defeating the group, she refuses Ruby's offer for a truce and prepares to attack her, only for Ruby to destroy the mech's cannon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10–12}} Reflecting on Ruby's words, Cordovin finishes off the Leviathan after Ruby freezes it, and then allows the group to continue to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}}

Cordovin alludes to the nursery rhyme, "[[There was an Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe]]".

=====Dr. Pietro Polendina=====
* Voiced by: [[Dave Fennoy]]

An elderly Atlesian scientist who traverses with a mechanic wheelchair, and is responsible for the creation of Penny, Yang's robotic arm, and Maria's cybernetic eyes. Maria visits him roughly every ten years to have her implants adjusted.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 1}} With Penny's creation, Pietro gave her a huge portion of his Aura. In his earlier years, Pietro had a team of scientists that included Watts.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} When arriving in Mantle, Maria suggests that he may be able to get them a meeting with General Ironwood. After they arrive in his charitable free clinic, Pietro quickly recognizes Yang's arm, Weiss, and by association team RWBY telling them that his "daughter" (later revealed to be a rebuilt Penny) told him all about them.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 1}} Before the heroes' first mission in Atlas, Pietro upgrades their weapons at their request, though he has his own ideas from watching them in the Vytal Festival Tournament.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} After Penny is framed for committing murder in Mantle, Pietro shows signs of his health deteriorating as he tries to look after his daughter.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} In the finale, Pietro flees Atlas with Penny, Teams RWBY and JNR, and Maria.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 13}}

Pietro is an allusion to Geppetto from ''[[Pinocchio]]''.

Dave Fennoy previously voiced Dr. Merlot in ''RWBY: Grimm Eclipse''.

====Ace-Ops====
The Ace-Ops are a special team of Huntsmen in the Atlas Military. Like Winter and Penny, they are part of Ironwood's inner circle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2}} Each member is an allusion to one of the [[Aesop's Fables]], with the team's name being a homophone of the word '[[Aesop]]'.
* {{vanchor|Clover Ebi}} Voiced by: Chris Wehkamp: Leader of the Ace-Ops who wields an extendable [[fishing pole]] called Kingfisher.<ref name="Ace-Ops" >{{cite web |url=https://twitter.com/OfficialRWBY/status/1196532857033768960|title=Meet the Ace-Ops |website=Twitter |accessdate=November 18, 2019}}</ref> His Semblance is good fortune.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} Clover develops a friendship with Qrow, and seems to have had a past relationship with Robyn.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3 & 5}} During the Battle of Mantle, Clover and Qrow join Robyn in confronting Tyrian. But when he is ordered by Ironwood to arrest Qrow, Clover fights both Qrow and Tyrian and is killed by the Faunus with Qrow's sword, with a remorseful Qrow and Robyn framed for his murder.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 10–13}} He alludes to ''A Fisherman’s Good Luck''.
*Elm Ederne Voiced by: Dawn M. Bennett: A muscular woman who wields a giant hammer, Timber, that doubles as a [[rocket launcher]].<ref name="Ace-Ops"/> Her Semblance allows her to use her Aura to root her feet into the ground.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} Elm alludes to the elm from ''The Elm and The Vine''.
*Marrow Amin Voiced by: Mick Lauer: A [[dog]] Faunus who wields Fetch,<ref name="Ace-Ops"/> a machine gun that can extend into a bladed [[boomerang]]. His Semblance can slow down specific targets.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} Marrow is skeptical of Robyn fighting for equal rights for everyone in the kingdom of Atlas. He later tries to plead with the Mantle politician when Penny is framed for causing a massacre at the political rally, but to no avail.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6}} Marrow alludes to ''The Dog and Its Reflection''.
*Harriet Bree Voiced by: Anairis Quinones: A woman with a mohawk who wields exoskeletal gauntlets called Fast Knuckles.<ref name="Ace-Ops"/> Her Semblance allows her to move super fast, and she notes that her reaction time is quicker than Ruby's.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}} Although she trusts her fellow Ace-Ops, Harriet only sees her team as coworkers and not as friends.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 4}} She alludes to the hare from ''The Tortoise and the Hare''.
*Vine Zeki Voiced by: Todd Womack: A pale man with unique forehead tattoos and wields Thorn.<ref name="Ace-Ops"/> His Semblance allows him to create extendable arms and legs.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3, Ch. 12}} Vine alludes to the vine from ''The Elm and The Vine''.

====Penny's team====
* {{vanchor|[[#Penny Polendina|Penny Polendina]]}}
* {{vanchor|Ciel Soleil}} Voiced by: Yssa Badiola: A dark-skinned girl with a beret who serves as Penny's handler while being unaware of her being an android.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 5}}

====Team FNKI====
[[File:Meg Turney at RTX 2014 (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Meg Turney]], voice of Neon Katt]]
Team FNKI (pronounced "funky") is a team participating in the Vytal Tournament. Weiss and Yang take on two of their members during the doubles rounds, and the two fight during the Battle of Beacon. The other two members are introduced when Team FNKI returns in Volume 7.
* {{vanchor|Flynt Coal}} Voiced by: Flynt Flossy: A dark-skinned boy with a fedora hat who wields a trumpet that can release sound waves to disorient his opponents. His Semblance creates the "Killer Quartet", in which he generates three clones of himself, each wearing a different colored necktie and armed with a trumpet. He initially hated Weiss because her family put his father out of business, but later respects her when she risks her own safety for her team's victory.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 5}} His name is taken from a joke commonly used in Rooster Teeth's gaming content division [[Achievement Hunter]]'s series "Let's Play [[Minecraft]]".<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0cOBlKhfxg#t=592s |title=Let's Play Minecraft – Episode 6 – Enter the Nether Part 1 |publisher=[[YouTube]] |author=[[Rooster Teeth]] |date=July 6, 2012 |access-date=June 10, 2017}}</ref>
* {{vanchor|Neon Katt}} Voiced by: [[Meg Turney]]: A talkative Faunus girl with a cat tail and roller skates who wields a glowstick-like nunchaku. Her name is derived from the internet meme [[Nyan Cat]], and she creates a rainbow trail as she skates.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 5}}
* {{vanchor|Kobalt}} A tall man with long blue hair.
* {{vanchor|Ivori}} A grey-haired and tan-skinned man with glasses who uses a whip.

====Happy Huntresses====
The Happy Huntresses are composed of Atlas Academy graduates who did not join the military, and instead use their talents to serve Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2}} They refer to the [[Merry Men]].
* {{vanchor|Robyn Hill}} Voiced by: [[Cristina Vee]]: Leader of the Happy Huntresses and a Mantle politician who is going against Jacques in the council election of Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2}} Her weapon is a wrist-mounted [[crossbow]] with bladed fans that act as a shield, and her Semblance acts as a lie detector when she physically holds someone's hand.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} She seems to have a history with Clover. In her Volume 7 debut, Robyn confronts Clover about Ironwood using vital supplies for his plans with Amity Arena, instead of reinforcing Mantle's defenses.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 5}} When she holds a political rally on the election day, Robyn is assaulted by Tyrian in a blackout but wrongfully accuses Penny. She also loses the election to Jacques after Watts rigs the votes.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6}} In response, Robyn steals Amity supplies until she is confronted by Blake and Yang, who tell her about Amity turning into a CCT, and the military being framed for murder in Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} At Jacques' dinner party, Robyn interrogates Ironwood with the council until Weiss exposes Jacques' crimes, and learns about Salem from Ironwood as the Grimm attack Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 8–9}} She later helps Ironwood in telling the people of Atlas and Mantle about Salem, and then defeats Tyrian with Qrow and Clover.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 10–11}} But after Ironwood abandons Mantle, Robyn turns on Clover but is severely injured when Tyrian crashes their aircraft and arrested soon after.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 12-13}} Robyn is an allusion to [[Robin Hood]].
* {{vanchor|Fiona Thyme}} Voiced by: Michele Sontag: A short white-haired Faunus with [[sheep]] ears. Her Semblance seemingly allows her to teleport objects by touching them{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} She is first seeing spying on the Atlesian Military as they occupy the old SDC mine with Amnity, and she later stands with Robyn as they confront Clover.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 4–5}} During Robyn's political rally, Fiona is severely injured by Tyrian but later recovers to help with stealing supplies meant for Amity.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6–7}} She alludes to [[Friar Tuck]].
* {{vanchor|Joana Greenleaf}} Voiced by: Marissa Lenti: A tall tanned woman with short dark-green hair and a muscular build. She alludes to [[Little John]].
* {{vanchor|May Marigold}} Voiced by: Kdin Jenzen: A blue-haired woman. Her Semblance enables her to create an illusionay force field, preventing those outside to see what is happening on the inside.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}} Jenzen confirmed on Twitter that May is the cousin of Henry Marigold, and is the first [[transgender]] character of the series.<ref>{{Cite web|url = https://twitter.com/KdinJenzen/status/1206990507584262144?s=19|title = @KdinJenzen YES, May IS Henry Marigold’s cousin! But more importantly, May Marigold is the very first onscreen trans character for RWBY! |accessdate = January 5, 2020|date = December 17, 2019|last=Jenzen|first =Kdin|publisher = Twitter|authorlink = Kdin Jenzen}}</ref> May alludes to [[Maid Marian]].

====Schnee Household====
* {{vanchor|Nicholas Schnee}} Father of Willow and grandfather of Winter, Weiss and Whitely, and the founder of the SDC. After working in the mines in his youth, Nicholas took his father's inheritance and formed SCD to provide Dust to the entire world of Remnant. He would personally oversee Dust expeditions and built a trustworthy reputation for the company. But his early days in the Dust mines forced him to retire, and allow his son-in-law, Jacques, to take over SDC.{{Ref|Volume|WoR}} While he has yet to make an appearance, the portraits in the Schnee manor show Nicholas as a noble knight.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 8–9}}
* {{vanchor|Willow Schnee}} Voiced by: [[Caitlin Glass]]: The abused wife of Jacques and mother of Winter, Weiss and Whitley, having become an alcoholic since learning that Jacques only married her for the Schnee family name and wealth.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8}} In Volume 7, Willow reveals to Weiss that she placed hidden cameras throughout the Schnee manor to spy on Jacques, pleading with her daughter not to abandon Whitley despite siding with their father.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 8}} She later watches as Jacques is arrested for his secret dealings with Watts.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 9}}
* {{vanchor|Whitley Schnee}} Voiced by: Howard Wang: The younger brother of Weiss and Winter, a pompous and scheming youth who considers his older sisters' career choices as pointless and barbaric.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 9}} In Volume 4, Weiss noting how he seemed different since she first enrolled at Beacon, Whitley feigned being supportive of Weiss until revealing his true colors once named the new heir to SDC after Weiss was disinherited by their father.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 2 & 7}} But in Volume 7, Willow implies to Weiss that Whitley has been subjected to Jacques's abuse since his sister's escape from Schnee manor.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 8}} He watches in despair as his father is arrested.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 9}} Whitley means "white meadow".
* {{vanchor|Klein Sieben}} Voiced by: [[J. Michael Tatum]] (English){{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 2 credits}}: The Schnee family butler, Klein is supportive of Weiss and is shown to deeply care for her.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 2}} Klein eventually helps Weiss scape from Schnee manor near the end of Volume 4, revealed in Volume 7 to have been fired as a result.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11 & Vol. 7, Ch. 8}} His full name is German for "small seven", thus he alludes to the seven dwarves from ''Snow White''. This is more evident with his mood swings and eye color.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 2}}

===Haven Academy/Mistral===
* {{vanchor|Leonardo Lionheart}} Voiced by: Daman Mills: A [[lion]] Faunus with a tail who was the headmaster of Haven Academy, armed with wrist-mounted shield named Stalwart that fires combined Dust projectiles.<ref name="World of RWBY"/> While originally a member of Ozpin's inner circle, Lionheart betrayed them as he allied himself with Salem's faction.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 12}} Volume 5 confirmed that Lionheart's reasons of working for Salem were out of fear, having given her the names of numerous Hunters that were killed off in secret and helping set up an ambush for Qrow and the Beacon students during the Battle of Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 10–11}} When the tide turns against Salem's faction, Lionheart tries to run away but is killed by Salem's Seer Grimm.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 14}} He is based on the Cowardly Lion in ''The Wonderful Wizard of Oz''.{{citation needed|date=October 2017}}

====Team SSSN====
[[File:RTX 2014 - AH panel (14404155388) (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.18|[[Michael Jones (actor)|Michael Jones]] and [[Gavin Free]], voices of Sun Wukong and Scarlet David]]
Each member of Team SSSN (pronounced "[[sun]]") has a [[Big Bang (South Korean band)|''Big Bang'']] motif.<ref>{{cite web |title= Tweet Number 473261423368216576 |url= https://twitter.com/montyoum/status/473261423368216576 |author= Monty Oum |date= 2 June 2014|accessdate= 10 January 2018 |quote= P.S. Ps |work= [[Twitter]]}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title= Tweet Number 473265099000774657 |url= https://twitter.com/montyoum/status/473265099000774657 |author= Monty Oum |date= 2 June 2014|accessdate= 10 January 2018 |quote= @VampyBitme :D |work= [[Twitter]] }}</ref> They are set to appear alongside Team CFVY in the upcoming novel ''RWBY: Before the Dawn''.

* {{vanchor|Sun Wukong}} Voiced by: [[Michael Jones (actor)|Michael Jones]]{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}: A blond-haired Faunus with a monkey tail who stowed away on a ship arriving in Vale. His weapon, [[Ruyi Jingu Bang|Ruyi Bang and Jingu Bang]], is a collapsible [[bō]] staff that splits into two [[nunchaku]] that can also function as [[sawed-off shotgun]]s. With his Semblance, "Via Sun", he can create astral projection clones of himself in battle. He possesses great speed and agility from his monkey-like traits and seems to be able to see through disguises, as he noticed Blake's Faunus heritage despite her bow.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} Even though he attends the academy in Mistral, he's actually a native of Vacuo. In Volume 4, Sun follows Blake without his team because he believed that she will be fighting the White Fang. Upon discovering that she is instead going home, he decides to accompany her to protect her from harm.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 3}} In Menagerie, Sun quickly bonds with Kali, Blake's mother, but constantly leaves bad impressions with Ghira, Blake's father.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 5 & 8}} After he gets injured by Ilia Amotila, Sun learns the reasons of Blake's departure from her team. He criticizes her, saying that she is only hurting her friends even more by pushing them away.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11}} In Volume 5, Sun aides the Belladonnas in rallying the people of Menagerie to defend Haven, though he is frustrated that no one is willing to do so.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5 Ch. 5}} He later saves Blake from capture after she is ambushed by Ilia, and later fights the Albain brothers alongside Ghira.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8–10}} In the Battle of Haven, Sun helps Blake in defending the school, and later encourages her to rejoin her team.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 13–14}} In Volume 6, Sun parts ways with Blake and prepares to take his team to Vacuo.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1}} Sun alludes to [[Sun Wukong|the character of the same name]] from ''[[Journey to the West]]''.
* {{vanchor|Scarlet David}} Voiced by: [[Gavin Free]]: A red-haired young man with a cape who wields Hook and Darling,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> a [[Flintlock|flintlock pistol]] and a [[cutlass]], as his weapons of choice. The handle of the pistol can be fired as a grappling hook. For some reason, he doesn't like sand in his shoes.  He is based on the character [[Peter Pan]], specifically from ''[[Peter Pan in Scarlet]]''.
* {{vanchor|Sage Ayana}} Voiced by: Josh Ornelas: A green-haired and dark-skinned young man with tattoos and a long coat, and wields Pilgrim,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> a large sword with Roman numerals on it. His name was confirmed via Monty's Twitter feed.{{citation needed|date=February 2016}} Sage alludes to one of the [[Aesop's Fables|fables]] by [[Aesop]], though the exact character and tale are unknown.<ref>[https://youtube.com/yOGBHQJ3DTw?t=18m31s RTOz Panel]</ref> His outfit is an allusion to [[Taeyang]] of Big Bang.
* {{vanchor|Neptune Vasilias}} Voiced by: Kerry Shawcross: A member of Sun's team who has a large rifle that fires electricity and can turn into a [[guandao]] and [[trident]] named Tri-Hard (as per Sun's suggestion).<ref name="World of RWBY"/> Although he has a cool image, he is unable to dance, which is a source of embarrassment for him,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 7}} and has [[Aquaphobia|an intense fear of water]].{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 2}} In Volume 6, Neptune accompanies Sun as he parts ways with Blake, and later does not seemed thrilled to be going to the wastelands of Vacuo.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1}} His appearance and outfit is styled after Big Bang member [[T.O.P (entertainer)|T.O.P.]].<ref>{{cite web|url=https://twitter.com/montyoum/status/473261423368216576|title=Monty Oum|author=|date=|work=Twitter|accessdate=February 19, 2016}}</ref>

====Team ABRN====
Team ABRN (pronounced "[[wikt:auburn|auburn]]") fights Team RWBY in the first (team) round of the Vytal Festival Tournament.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 1}} Its members are among the group of students that fights off Grimm and Atlas mechs during the Battle of Beacon. {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 10–11}}
* Arslan Altan A dark-skinned young woman who is capable of hand-to-hand combat and wields a [[rope dart|rope javelin]].
* Bolin Hori Voiced by: Jon Risinger: A black-haired young man who wields a [[Gun (staff)|staff]].
* Reese Chloris A light green-haired girl who rides a [[hoverboard]] that absorbs Dust crystals and transforms into dual pistols.
* Nadir Shiko A pink-haired teenage boy who wields an [[assault rifle]] that can also transform into a sword.

===Shade Academy/Vacuo===
* Professor Theodore The headmaster of Shade Academy who is mentioned in the novel ''RWBY: After the Fall''.

====Team BRNZ====
Team BRNZ (pronounced "[[bronze]]") fights Team JNPR in the first (team) round of the Vytal Festival Tournament.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 2}}
* Brawnz Ni Voiced by: Blaine Gibson: A black-haired man with gray highlights who wields a pair of claws.
* Roy Stallion A dark-skinned male with dreadlocks who wears gauntlets capable of firing [[circular saw]]s. He was carried off by a Nevermore during the Battle of Beacon, and later revealed in the spinoff series “After the Fall” he was killed. {{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 10}}
* Nolan Porfirio Voiced by: Aaron Marquis: A maroon-haired man who wields an electrically charged [[cattle prod]].
* May Zedong A beanie-wearing female who wields a [[sniper rifle]] with a blade on the underside of the stock.

====Team NDGO====
Team NDGO (pronounced "[[indigo]]") fights Team SSSN in the first (team) round of the Vytal Festival Tournament.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 2}} The characters are based on fans who were Indiegogo backers for the movie ''[[Lazer Team]]''.
* Nebula Violette Voiced by: Kate Warner: A purple-haired girl who wields a crossbow that can transform into a sword.
* Dew Gayl Voiced by: Kim Newman: A blonde-haired girl who wields a [[spear]] capable of creating tornadoes.
* Gwen Darcy A black-haired girl who wields [[throwing knife|throwing knives]] that she keeps in her armored skirt.
* Octavia Ember A red-haired girl who wields a [[kris]] sword that can release fire torrents.

===Menagerie Nation===
* {{vanchor|Ghira Belladonna}} Voiced by: [[Kent Williams (voice actor)|Kent Williams]]: Blake's father, and chieftain of Menagerie. His Faunus trait is his retractable panther claws at his fingertips.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8}} He originally served as leader of the White Fang before stepping down.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 5}} Tall and imposing, Ghira loves and cares about Blake immensely, and is highly protective of her. He also has a hard time liking Sun, unlike his wife. After Blake and Sun's encounter with Ilia Amotila, Ghira examines her stolen scroll, finding Adam's Taurus' plans of overthrowing Sienna Khan and attacking Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11}} In Volume 5, Ghira tries to rally the people of Menagerie to take the White Fang back from Adam and defend Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 3}} He also defends his home from White Fang insurgents with help from Sun.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8–10}} After successfully defending Haven, Ghira decides to form a new brotherhood of Faunus who want to create a better future.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 13–14}} His name could possibly be derived from [[Bagheera]], a black panther from the classic story ''[[The Jungle Book]]''.{{citation needed|date=October 2017}}
* {{vanchor|Kali Belladonna}} Voiced by: [[Tara Platt]]: Ghira's wife and Blake's mother. Like her daughter, Kali has black Faunus cat ears. Upon meeting Sun, she takes a liking to him and quickly bonds with him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 5}} Later on, Kali helps defend her home from White Fang insurgents.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8 & 10}} During the Battle of Haven, she leads the police force to arrest Adam.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 13}} Kali is named after [[Kali|the Hindu goddess]], and the name is Sanskrit for black.{{citation needed|date=October 2017}}
* {{vanchor|Ilia Amitola}} Voiced by: [[Cherami Leigh]]: A [[chameleon]] Faunus who is an old acquaintance of Blake's, able to change her skin tone and eye color at will. She wields Lightning Lash,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> a rapier-like weapon that doubles as a [[whip]] that can give off an electrical charge. Before joining the White Fang, Ilia lived in the mining community in Mantle with her parents enrolling her in an Atlas prep school. While Ilia's abilities allowed her to perfectly blend in with the humans, she lost control of them when she attacked her schoolmates in a fit of rage upon hearing them snicker about a mining accident that killed her parents.{{Ref|Volume|Blake Character Short}} First mentioned by the Albain brothers, who state that she would be elated at Blake's return, Ilia spies on the Belladonna household before being forced to elude Blake and Sun while warning the former that she should have not returned.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 5 & 8–9}} In Volume 5, it is revealed that she had romantic feelings for Blake. Spurred that she fell in love with Adam, Ilia carries out an order by the Albain brothers to subdue Blake while her associates assassinate Ghira and Kali.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5 Ch. 5 & 8}} After Blake escapes, however, Ilia fights her at the Belladonna home where Blake convinces her to leave the White Fang and help defend Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 9–10}} In the Battle of Haven, Ilia prevents Adam from destroying the school by disarming his explosives.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 13}} In Volume 6, Ilia parts ways with Blake by remaining in Mistral to help Ghira with his new Faunus movement.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1}}

===Arc Family===
* {{vanchor|Jaune's Great-Great Grandfather}} Jaune's ancestor who fought in the Great War, and the original wielder of Crocea Mors.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 2}}
* {{vanchor|Saphron Cotta-Arc}} Voiced by: Lindsay Sheppard: Jaune's elder sister who is currently living in Argus with her wife Terra and their son Adrian. She is the only daughter of the family to have moved out.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 7}} She helps her brother's group by having Adrian distract the military base with his cries.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10}}
* {{vanchor|Terra Cotta-Arc}} Voiced by: Jamie Smith: Saphron's wife and Adrian's mother. She works as a technician at the city of Argus' relay tower, though she has been falsely blamed for technical troubles.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 7}} Terra guides Blake on how to disable the tower's radar when the group tries to steal an airship.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10}}
* {{vanchor|Adrian Cotta-Arc}} Voiced by: Lucella Wren Clary: Saphron and Terra's son, and Jaune's nephew.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 7}} His cries are capable of delivering powerful sound waves.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10}}

===Maidens===
Maidens are women who are capable of wielding great magic, including control over the weather and natural elements, as well as being the only ones to access one of the four Relics each.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 1}} The original Four Maidens, each named after the [[Season|four seasons]], were given their powers by Ozpin in one of his past lives with their magic transferred into the body of another woman.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 7}}

* {{vanchor|Amber}} Voiced by: [[Laura Bailey (voice actress)|Laura Bailey]]: The previous Fall Maiden who is a skilled combatant armed with a staff with Dust crystals on each end and is capable of hand-to-hand combat, ending up in a comatose state when attacked by Cinder who siphoned half of her power. Her body was placed in an Atlas-made life support device in the Vault under Beacon Academy, Ozpin and the others resolving to risky gambit to transfer Amber's remaining powers and soul into a willing Pyrrha.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 6–7}} But Amber is killed by Cinder as the process commenced.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 11}}
* {{vanchor|Fria}} Voiced by: [[Luci Christian]]: The previous Winter Maiden. In Volume 7, she was on life support at an Atlesian medical facility, with Winter chosen as her successor. Fria is visited by only Winter to ensure that the Maiden will only think of the operative at her death, so that she will transfer her powers to her chosen successor. It is implied that Fria is into painting, but she frequently suffers from seizures in her left arm.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 5}} Fria eventually dies during Cinder's attack, only for the power to be passed to Penny instead of Winter.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 13}}
* {{vanchor|[[#Cinder Fall|Cinder Fall]]}}
* {{vanchor|[[#Raven Branwen|Raven Branwen]]}}
* {{vanchor|[[#Penny Polendina|Penny Polendina]]}}

===Deities===
Two deity brothers who were initially at odds with each other before they created humanity together on the foundation of creation, destruction, knowledge and choice. When Salem tried to have them resurrect Ozma, the brothers curse her with immortality as punishment. When she led a human rebellion against the brothers, the God of Darkness destroys all of humanity except for Salem, and the brothers left Remnant while leaving behind the four Relics as a beacon to summon them to judge the new race of humans that came to be in their absence.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 3}}
* {{vanchor|God of Light}} Voiced by: Chase McCaskill: The eldest deity brother, the first to refuse Salem's request to resurrect Ozma as it would disrupt natural order and cursed her with immortality after she used his brother to commit the deed. Following his brother wiping out the human rebellion, the God of Light grants Ozma the ability to reincarnate to stop Salem while creating the four Relics as a means to summon him and his brother back to Remnant.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 3}} After seeing Jinn's vision, Maria deduces that the power of the silver-eyed warriors comes from the God of Light.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 8}}
* {{vanchor|God of Darkness}} Voiced by: Bruce DuBose: The younger of the deity brothers who both created the Grimm and granted magic to humans. When he resurrects Ozma at Salem's behest before learning he was her second choice following a brief fight with the God of Light, the God of Darkness joins his brother in cursing Salem and later wipes out of most of humanity when Salem turned them on the brothers. When he leaves Remnant with his brother, the God of Darkness shatters the moon in the process.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 3}}

===Other supporting characters===
* {{vanchor|Zwei}}: Ruby and Yang's pet [[Pembroke Welsh Corgi]]. He only makes a few appearances in the main ''RWBY'' series, but is featured more extensively in the ''RWBY Chibi'' series. His name is a play on the corgi Ein from the manga/anime series ''[[Cowboy Bebop]]''.{{citation needed|date=October 2017}}
* {{vanchor|Shopkeep}} Voiced by: Patrick Rodriguez{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}: A shop owner of various places such as From Dust Till Dawn.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1, Ch. 1}} He is often seen being robbed or his property damaged.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}} In Volumes 2 and 3, he operates a noodle stand on the Vytal Festival grounds.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 4 & Vol. 3, Ch. 1}}
* {{vanchor|Tukson}} Voiced by: Adam Ellis{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2 credits}}: A [[puma (genus)|puma]] Faunus with finger claws who was a former White Fang member before deserting them to open a book shop in Vale. He planned on fleeing to Vacuo, but he is killed by Mercury and Emerald.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 1}}
* {{vanchor|Henry Marigold}} Voiced by: Alejandro Saab: An Atlesian citizen who is May Marigold's cousin. In Volume 4, he attends the Schnee charity event without understanding its purpose. Henry tries to woo Weiss, but only angers her and is forced to leave in disgrace.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 6}}
* {{vanchor|Li}} and {{vanchor|An Ren}} Voiced by: [[Kaiji Tang]] and Dawn M. Bennett: The parents of Lie Ren. They lived in Kuroyuri with their son, and Li was an archer. They were both killed when Grimm destroyed the town.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 10}}
* {{vanchor|Jinn}} Voiced by: [[Colleen Clinkenbeard]]: A magical being created by the God of Light that resides within the Relic of Knowledge, summoned by whoever says her name while holding it, freezing time for her and her summoner during that duration. Jinn can answer three questions once a century, only able to answer events that had or are occurring as a manifestation of knowledge. The Relic of Knowledge was held within Haven Academy until the Volume 5 finale when Raven uses her Spring Maiden powers to unseal it with Team RWBY acquiring the artifact with Ozpin waning to take it to Atlas for safe keeping. Ruby summons Jinn in Volume 6 to learn the truth about Ozpin, the being granting her request by revealing to Team RWBY, Qrow, Oscar and Maria how Ozpin and Salem transcended their humanity.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 2–3}} When later summoned by Ruby during the battle against the Leviathan, initially upset that the girl had no intent of asking her a question, Jinn praises the girl for her cleverly using her for time to activate her silver eyes while explaining that she would not exploit her ability to freeze time again.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}}
* {{vanchor|Forest}} Voiced by: Eric Baudor: An avid supporter of Robyn. He is arrested for throwing a brick at a military airship. While on the ship with the heroes, Forest reveals to them about Robyn's campaign.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2}} After he is dropped off by the police, Forest is killed by Tyrian.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 3}}
* {{vanchor|Sleet and Camilla}} Voiced by: Chad James and Anairis Quinones: Two members of the Atlas council. They first appear at Jacques' dinner party to interrogate Ironwood over his recent actions. When Weiss exposes Jacques' secret meeting with Watts, both Sleet and Camilla recognize the mad doctor and learn about Salem's existence from Ironwood.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 8–9}}

==Antagonists==
=== Salem's Inner Circle ===
==== Salem ====
[[File:Jen Taylor (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Jen Taylor]], voice of Salem]]
* Voiced by: [[Jen Taylor]]{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}

The [[main antagonist]] of the series who, prior to her formal introduction in the season three finale, was known as Mysterious Narrator, providing the origins of Remnant and Dust,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}} along with narration for the first ''World of Remnant'' shorts.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2}} Volume 6 would reveal she was originally human before her attempt to save Ozma cursed her with immortality by the gods, causing the near extinction of humanity in rallying them against the deities and her attempt of drowning herself in a Grimm Pit mutated her into a human-Grimm hybrid. When Ozma was given the ability to reincarnate, Salem ends up in eternal conflict with her reincarnated lover over how best to guide the surviving humans while resolved to divide and rob them of their hope.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12 & Vol. 6, Ch. 3}}

Salem first appears in the Volume 3 finale, revealed to have masterminded the actions of Cinder's factions while claiming Ozpin is dead during a meeting with her underlings at the beginning of Volume 4.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 1}} According to Qrow, Salem is after the four Relics left by the deity brothers who created Remnant.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 8}} In Volume 5, she has made a deal with the White Fang for the destruction of Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5 Ch. 2}} During the Battle of Haven, Salem has her Seer kill Lionheart when he tries to escape.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 14}} In Volume 6, Jinn reveals Salem's origins to Team RWBY, Qrow, Oscar and Maria.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 3}} When her subordinates return from Haven, she forces them all to accept Cinder as the cause of their loss, while becoming enraged upon learning that Ozpin had reincarnated sooner than expected.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 4}} In the volume finale, Salem creates an army of flying Beringel to personally lead the attack on Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}} In Volume 7, Salem appears via Seer to Team RWBY and Ironwood's group to inform them that she is coming for Atlas while demanding for the Relics, revealing that she killed Summer.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7. Ch. 11}} Salem eventually arrives with her army as Team RWBY and their group are forced to flee Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7. Ch. 13}}

Her name is based on the town of Salem, known for its [[Salem Witch Trials|witch trials]] and alludes to the [[Wicked Witch]] from ''The Wonderful Wizard of Oz''.

==== Cinder Fall ====
[[File:Jessica Nigri (cropped, bust).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Jessica Nigri]], voice of Cinder Fall]]
* Voiced by: [[Jessica Nigri]]<ref name="pd 2-3" />{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}

A mysterious woman who possesses magma-based powers in creating various type of weapons: these include Midnight – a pair of blades that combine to form a [[Bow and arrow|bow]] that she uses to fire arrows – as well as a variety of weapons she creates using her Fall Maiden powers.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2 & 5}} Cinder's Semblance, "Scorching Caress",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> allows her to heat objects and manipulate their shape. She also fights with glass and has been noted to have fused Dust into some of her clothing.

Cinder is a very cunning and secretive woman, with goals of gaining power and becoming feared by others, and the end goal of overthrowing Ozpin, as per her superior Salem's wishes.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 7}} She leads a team with Mercury and Emerald, recruiting Adam and Roman into helping her devastate Beacon. In Volume 3, Cinder kills the Fall Maiden and claims her power while killing off Ozpin and Pyrrha, the latter's death resulting in Cinder being exposed to Ruby's hidden powers manifesting.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 11–12}}

Volume 4 reveals that Cinder lost her left eye and arm, the arm replaced with a Grimm limb grafted onto her body, and is initially forced to have Emerald speak for her until she regains her speech.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 1}} After going through Salem's treatment, Cinder proceeds to master her new powers.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 3, & 11–12}} In Volume 5, a fully recovered Cinder is ordered by Salem to seek out Raven Branwen and convince her to hand over the Spring Maiden so they can acquire the Relic of Knowledge.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 2}} But Cinder deviates from the plan by arranging to help Raven kill Qrow if she and Vernal can help her get the Relic of Knowledge, leading an ambush as she overpowers Jaune and fatally wounds Weiss during the Battle of Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 9 & 11}} Once at the vault holding the Relic of Knowledge, Cinder reveals her Grimm arm as she kills Vernal for the Spring Maiden's power, learning too late that Raven is the real Spring Maiden.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 12–13}} Volume 6 reveals that Cinder barely survived Raven's attack as resolves to regain Salem's favor to taking the Relic from Team RWBY. She seeks out Lil' Miss Malachite for intel on Ruby's whereabouts before being joined by Neo, whom she promises the honor of killing Ruby to in return for the Relic.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 2, 5, & 7}} Cinder then sets out with Neo for Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}}

For most of Volume 7, Cinder lays low in Atlas while having Neo infiltrate the Schnee manor to find the Relic of Knowledge, later instructing her to acquire it during the Battle of Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 9–10}} She later uses the chaos to follow Winter to Fria's location in order to take the Winter Maiden's power for herself, only for Penny to end up acquiring the power instead while Cinder is forced to retreat when Ruby arrives and uses her silver eyes. After retreating, Cinder regroups with Neo and takes the Relic of Knowledge to bring it to Salem.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 11–13}}

Cinder is an allusion to [[Cinderella]].

==== Dr. Arthur Watts ====
[[File:Christopher Sabat (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Christopher Sabat]], voice of Dr. Arthur Watts]]
* Voiced by: [[Christopher Sabat]]{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4 credits}}

A doctor who is formal yet arrogant and condescending to his allies. His main weapon is a twenty-bullet revolver, while using his rings to both hack into networks, and use hard-light Dust as a shield.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 10–11}} Watts once served as a scientist in Atlas alongside Pietro as well as an old acquaintance of Jacques, faking his death during the Paladin project.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2, 4, 7 & 9}}

First appearing the first episode of Volume 4, Watts is instructed by Salem to assume Cinder's role in meeting their informant, revealed in the finale as Haven's headmaster Professor Lionheart.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 1 & 12}} In Volume 5, Watts is requested by Salem to return to her and build a replacement tail for Tyrian.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5 Ch. 2}} Prior to his departure, Watts accompanies Cinder and her group to negotiate with the Branwen tribe camp and voices his disapproval of Cinder putting her vendetta towards Ruby before their mission.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 7 & 9}} Watts later heads for Atlas with Tyrian under Salem's orders, where he hacks into Mantle's security to avoid detection.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 9 & Vol. 7, Ch. 2}} He then offers his services to Jacques by rigging the votes while destroying Ironwood's reputation with doctored footage, using the businessman to access Altas's systems and disable the heating during a snowstorm so the resulting negativity would instigate the Grimm to attack Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 4, 6 & 8-9}} But after the plan to destroy the city begins to fall apart, Watts heads for Amity where he is captured by Ironwood.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 10–11}} He later watches in the finale as Salem arrives at Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 13}}

Watts alludes to [[Dr. Watson|John Watson]] from ''[[Sherlock Holmes]]''.<ref name="World of RWBY"/>

==== Tyrian Callows ====
[[File:Josh Grelle en Animate Miami 2015-1.jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|[[Josh Grelle]], voice of Tyrian Callows]]
* Voiced by: [[Josh Grelle]]

A pale psychopathic scorpion Faunus with a long, black braided ponytail and yellow eyes that turn purple while striking with his stinger, showing himself to be extremely devoted to Salem. He wields The Queen's Servants,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> which are a pair of wrist mounted blades with gun barrels. His Semblance allows him to channel his Aura at his hand and slice through another's Aura to cause severe damage.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6}} Tyrian was a serial killer in Anima who escaped capture when the prison cargo ship carrying him was attacked by Grimm and he joined Salem afterwards.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7}}

In Volume 4, mocking Cinder for the injuries she suffered at the Fall of Beacon, Tyrian is assigned by Salem to find and capture Ruby. However, while catching up to Team RNJR,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 6}} Tyrian is forced to retreat after Ruby cut off his tail when he poisoned Qrow.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 7}} After returning to Salem and losing her favor, a distraught Tyrian vents out his frustrations on a Beowolf that tried to kill him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11}} In Volume 6, Tyrian is outfitted with a new bionic tail developed by Watts and accompanies the scientist to Atlas after mocking Mercury and Emerald over their dilemma with Cinder's absence.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 4 & 9}}

In Volume 7, Tyrian begins his killing spree of people critical of Ironwood, including Forest, to further ruin Ironwood's reputation in Mantle.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 2–4}} He continues the spree at Robyn's political rally, assaulting the Mantle politician and killing several civilians, while Watts uploads an edited video of Penny to frame her for the attack.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 6}} Tyrian targets Robyn during the Battle of Mantle and is briefly captured by Qrow and Clover, taking advantage of a fight between the two to crash their airship, and later killing Clover with Qrow's weapon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 10–12}}

Tyrian alludes to the scorpion from [[The Scorpion and the Frog]] while named after a [[Tyrian purple|shade of purple]].

==== Hazel Reinart ====
* Voiced by: William Orendorff

A muscular man who is normally reserved and composed with his Semblance, "Numbing Agent",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> serving as a form of painkiller whenever he embeds raw Dust crystals into his body to augment his strength.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 13}} Hazel joined Salem as he blamed Ozpin for the death of his sister Gretchen during a training mission while she attended Beacon, his calm exterior replaced with rage when in Ozpin's presence.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 12}} In Volume 4, crossing paths with Oscar, Hazel is sent by Salem to Anima to meet up with Adam to ensure Sienna Khan's loyalty.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 1 & 10}} In Volume 5, Hazel meets Khan but is mortified that Adam used him as an excuse to kill her without his knowledge and consent.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 2}} He then joins Cinder and Raven as they ambush Qrow's group in the Battle of Haven, attacking Oscar once learning that Ozpin reincarnated into the boy. After losing the battle, Hazel escapes from Haven with Mercury while carrying an unconscious Emerald.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11–14}} In Volume 6, Hazel tries to take responsibility for the defeat at Haven, only to be pinned down by an angry Salem who already knew that it was Cinder who was responsible.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 4}}

Hazel and Gretchen's names come from ''[[Hansel and Gretel]]''.

=== Cinder's faction ===
{{multiple image
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| image1 = Gray Haddock at RTX 2015 (cropped).jpg
| width1 = 817 | height1 = 1147
| alt1 = Gray G. Haddock at RTX 2015
| caption1 = [[Gray G. Haddock]], voice of Roman Torchwick
| image2 = JJ Castillo at RTX 2013 (15692293573) (cropped).jpg
| width2 = 1152 | height2 = 1536
| alt2 = J.J. Castillo at RTX 2013
| caption2 = J.J. Castillo, voice of Mercury Black (Volume 2)
| image3 = Yuri Lowenthal - New York Comic Con (2009).jpg
| width3 = 838 | height3 = 1116
| alt3 = Yuri Lowenthal at New York Comic Con 2009
| caption3 = [[Yuri Lowenthal]], voice of Mercury Black (Volume 3–present)
}}
* {{vanchor|Mercury Black}} Voiced by: J.J. Castillo (Volume 2), [[Yuri Lowenthal]] (Volume 3–present): A gray-haired associate of Cinder's who uses a pair of [[greave]]s, Talaria,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> that also function as guns. His legs are mechanical [[Prosthesis|prosthetics]] which were implied to be surgically attached because of damage caused to his natural legs by his father, Marcus.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 7}} Mercury unlocked his Semblance before it was stolen by Marcus, and was not able to get it back after training.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 9}} Mercury is responsible for televising a live video feed of the destruction unleashed on Vale and Beacon near the end of Volume 3.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 10}} In Volume 5, Mercury tries to intimidate Raven during the negotiations between her and Salem's faction.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 9}} After the Battle of Haven, he is forced to escape, with Hazel carrying Emerald.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 14}} In Volume 6, Mercury argues with Emerald about their place in Salem's faction and that Cinder never cared for them.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 9}} He alludes to [[Mercury (mythology)|the Roman god of the same name]].
* {{vanchor|Emerald Sustrai}} Voiced by: Katie Newville: A green-haired associate of Cinder's who uses Thief's Respite,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> a pair of pistols with attached blades that can also extend via chains, similar to a kusarigama. Her Semblance, "Hallucinations",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> allows her to cast hallucinations on people's minds, advantageous for her thieving skills, though it becomes a strain to her if she tries to do it on more than one person.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 7}} Ever since she was recruited by Cinder, Emerald has an undying loyalty to her, even if she serves someone as evil as Salem.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11}} In Volume 4, Emerald serves as Cinder's translator.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 1}} In Volume 5, during the Battle of Haven, Emerald is emotionally distraught at Cinder's apparent death. In despair, she unleashes a powerful hallucination of Salem on the heroes. She is carried away from Haven by Hazel.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 14}} In Volume 6, Emerald is forced by Salem to acknowledge Cinder as the reason they failed at Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 4}} She is still devoted to Cinder and denies that her master never cared for her, causing her and Mercury to argue.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 9}} Emerald is named after [[Emerald|the green gemstone]] while Sustrai is the Basque word for "thief", an apparent allusion to [[Aladdin]].
* {{vanchor|Roman Torchwick}} Voiced by: [[Gray G. Haddock]]:{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}} An orange-haired criminal whom Ruby fights in the series' first episode, armed with the Melodic Cudgel, a cane which doubles as a firearm and grappling gun. Throughout the first two Volumes, Roman aids Cinder's plans in numerous Dust robberies and enlisting the White Fang to cause public unrest until he was arrested by the authorities in the Volume 2 finale.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 12}} But this would later to be part of Cinder's plan, as Neo frees him and they take control of an Atlas ship during the Fall of Beacon. However, Roman ends up being devoured by a Griffon that he unknowingly attracted with his nihilism while overpowering Ruby.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 9 – 11}} In Volume 6, Roman's hat is now worn by Neo. His attire is inspired by the lead character Alex from the novel/film ''[[A Clockwork Orange (novel)|A Clockwork Orange]]'',<ref>Volume 1 Directors Commentary</ref> while his name is primarily an allusion to [[Candlewick (character)|Candlewick or Lampwick]] from ''Pinocchio''.
* {{vanchor|Neopolitan|Neo|Neo Politan}} / Neo Politan Voiced by: Casey Lee Williams: An associate of Roman's with [[Heterochromia iridum|heterochromic]] eyes that change color between pink, brown, and white depending on her mood, while her hair is pink and brown with streaks of white. She has an umbrella called Hush,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> which is capable of blocking powerful blasts with a hidden blade in its handle. Her illusion-based Semblance, "Overactive Imagination",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> allows her to generate disguises for herself.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 4}} though she is mute, She continuously smiles, which serves as a way of taunting her opponents. While assumed dead when knocked into a Grifon horde by Ruby, while on an airship during the Battle of Beacon, a revenge-driven Neo resurfaces in Volume 6 and joins Cinder's cause after attempting to kill her, when Cinder promises her the honor of killing Ruby, whom they both hate.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 11 & Vol. 6, Ch. 5 & 7}} In the volume finale, Neo disguises an airship for her and Cinder to get to Atlas undetected.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}} In Volume 7, Neo disguises herself as a waitress at the Schnee manor, where she leans of the locations of both Ruby and the Relic of Knowledge. Despite wanting to go after Ruby, Neo is ordered by Cinder to retrieve the Relic from Oscar first.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 9–10}} Neo succeeds in acquiring the Relic despite Oscar and Team JNR briefly taking it back.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 12-13}} Neo's name and appearance reference [[Neapolitan ice cream]].

=== White Fang ===
The White Fang is an organization composed of persecuted Faunus fighting for civil rights like those committed by the Schnee Dust Company using their people for labor, originally established by Ghira Belladonna as a peaceful [[civil disobedience]] group. But when he stepped down five years prior to the beginning of the series and is succeeded by Sienna Khan, the White Fang became a terrorist cell under the gradual influence of Adam Taurus who staged a coup before the organization became fragmented in the aftermath of the Battle of Haven.

* {{vanchor|Adam Taurus}} Voiced by: Garrett Hunter: A red-haired man with bull horns and Blake's former partner in the "Black" trailer, revealed in Volume 4 as the leader of a White Fang splinter group based in Vale. He wears a mask to conceal his SDC brand and scar over his left eye.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 11}} He wields a [[chokutō]] and gun called Wilt and Blush, respectively. Blush doubles as Wilt's sheath, and Adam can shoot Wilt out from the gun as a projectile. His Semblance is "Moonslice", which enables him to absorb attacks with Wilt and strike back with countered force. While a mentor figure to Blake, who considered him a hero for Faunus rights like most the White Fang, Adam gradually become an extremist who considers his people as superior to humans. When Blake left the White Fang when Adam showed a complete disregard for the crew of a train they attacked in the "Black" trailer, a betrayed Adam became obsessed of making her suffer. Despite his initial refusal, Adam allies himself with Cinder and provides his subordinates to Torchwick. Following Torchwick's arrest, Adam assures Cinder that the White Fang will continue to cooperate with her group.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 12}} Adam leads the White Fang during the Fall of Beacon in the climax of Volume 3 and overpowers Blake, slicing Yang's right arm off to make good on his promise.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 9-11}} In Volume 4, while the Albain brothers denouncing his actions, Adam had their support as he plans a coup to overthrow Sienna Khan as High Leader and launch a full-scale attack of Haven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 11}} In Volume 5, after murdering Sienna during an arranged meeting between her and Hazel, Adam readies his forces to attack Haven while ordering the Albain brothers to have Blake brought to him and her family kills.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5 Ch. 2 & 5}} But everything falls apart when Blake ruins his intent to detonate bombs laced around Haven and being told that he means nothing to her, the White Fang falling into disarray when Adam abandons his subordinates to escape.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11, & 13–14}} In Volume 6, Adam ends up killing White Fang members after losing their support with his obsession brought into question.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 1}} Adam eventually ambushes Blake at Argus, fighting both her and Yang before they managed to defeat and kill him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 10–12}} Adam's name and relationship to Blake compliment her reference to ''[[Beauty and the Beast]]'' as Adam was the true name of the Beast.
* {{vanchor|White Fang Lieutenant}} Voiced by: Gray G. Haddock:{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2 credits}} A higher-ranking White Fang member under Adam who works with Roman Torchwick during Volume 2, armed with a chainsaw-like sword which he uses during his battle against Weiss on the train towards Vale.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 11}}
* {{vanchor|Sienna Khan}} Voiced by: [[Monica Rial]]: The former High Leader of the White Fang who has tiger ears, succeeding Ghira after he stepped down.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 3}} Her weapon is Cerberus Whip,<ref name="World of RWBY"/> a [[chain whip]] with three detachable Dust blades. Khan firmly believes in using fear and violence to end the humans' prejudice towards the Faunus, but denounces any unnecessary actions that would justify the prejudice as Adam had done during the Fall of Beacon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 2}} Adam later arranges a meeting between Sienna and Hazel for the latter to see if the White Fang can be of service to Salem. But Sienna is instead killed by Adam in a coup, with her death fabricated so she would be a martyr for the White Fang's cause.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. & Vol. 5, Ch. 2}} Based on [[Shere Khan]] from The Jungle Books.
* {{vanchor|Corsac}} and Fennec Albain Voiced by: [[Derek Mears]] and [[Mike McFarland]]: Fox Faunus brothers who represent the White Fang in Menagerie.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 5}} Corsac is taller with a gray fox tail, and Fennec is shorter with light brown fox ears. They each wield a Dust-powered [[Sai (weapon)|sai]], collectively called Cyclone and Inferno.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8}} <ref name="World of RWBY"/> They secretly work for Adam, thought they have become uneasy with his leadership because of his obsession with Blake's suffering.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5 Ch. 5}} The brothers personally lead the White Fang during the assault on the Belladonna household in an attempt to kill Ghira and Kali, ending with Fennec's death while Corsac is arrested.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8–10}} Their names likely allude to the [[Corsac fox|corsac]] and [[fennec fox]] species.

===Jacques Schnee===
* Voiced by: [[Jason Douglas]] (English)

The father of Weiss, Winter and Whitley, and the current head to the Schnee Dust Company. His surname was "Gelée" before he married into the Schnee family, priding himself in maintaining the family's good name at any cost. While Jacques brought great success to the SDC after convinced his father-in-law Nicholas to let him take over the company, some of the practices he established to maintain the SDC have been considered controversial.{{Ref|Volume|WoR}} The actions of the White Fang stating attacks on SDC over poor labor practices involving Faunus employees gradually plays a part in Jacques's strained relation with Weiss, with their family irreparably broken when Jacques admits to Willow that he married her only for the Schnee name during Weiss' tenth birthday.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 8}}

Jacques is introduced in the Volume 3 finale when he takes Weiss back to Atlas in the aftermath of the Fall of Beacon.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}} In Volume 4, upset over Ironwood's Dust exportation embargo, Jacques has Weiss participate in a charity concert to boost the Schnee family's public image.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4 Ch. 2}} But the commotion Weiss causes during the charity's cocktail party forces Jacques to remove her as his heir and confine her in Schnee manor before she escapes him.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 6–7}} In Volume 7, Jacques runs against Robyn for election on the Atlas Council, confronts Ironwood about taking control of an old SDC Dust mind, and coldly informs Weiss of Willow's condition.{{Ref|Volume|Vol 7, Ch. 1–4}} Jacques is later approached by Watts, who offers his services to rig the election and further destroy Ironwood's public image.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 4–6}} Jacques proceeds to challenge Ironwood to defend his seat on the council after winning the election, only to be stripped of his position and arrested for treason when Weiss presented evidence of his dealings with Watts to the council.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 7, Ch. 7–9}}

Jacques alludes to [[Jack Frost]].<ref>Volume 4 Directors Commentary 27:31</ref>

=== Raven Branwen ===
[[File:RTX 2016 - Anna Hullum (28144022656) (cropped).jpg|thumb|right|upright=.59|Anna Hullum, voice of Raven Branwen]]
* Voiced by: Anna Hullum (English)
Former third member of Team STRQ, the mother of Yang and the first lover of Taiyang, Qrow's older twin sister and leader of the Branwen Tribe who follows a [[survival of the fittest]] philosophy. Raven is armed with Omen:<ref name="World of RWBY"/> an [[ōdachi]] with interchangeable blades inside the sheath as her weapon of choice with her Semblance, "Kindred Link",<ref name="World of RWBY"/> allowing her to create a portal to whoever she has a bond with.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 4}} As revealed in Volume 5, she and Qrow were sent into Beacon to be trained as Hunters to give their people an advantage against hunters. While she initially became a member of Ozpin's inner circle, as he gave her to shapeshift into a raven,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 6}} Raven questioned Ozpin and resolved to learn the truths of their world on her own, her world-views calling her and Qrow to have a falling out while Taiyang reveals that Raven's flaws were the cause of Team STRQ, and his marriage to her, breaking up as she leaves him sometime after Yang was born.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 8 & Vol. 4, Ch. 9}} Raven becomes the current Spring Maiden during that time after killing off her predecessor, using Vernal as a decoy to conceal her power.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 13–14}}

First appearing in Volume 2 to save Yang from Neo, Yang later having a dream of them meeting,{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 2, Ch. 11–12}} Raven is formally introduced when she meets Qrow in Higanbana after their tribe accidentally caused a Grimm attack at Shion village and questioned her brother if Salem obtained one of the Relics while voicing his decision to turn his back on their tribe.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 4}} In Volume 5, Raven's men capture Weiss after her cargo ship crashes near their camp, only to let her go after Yang arrives and demands Raven to take them to Ruby and Qrow.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 2 & 4}} Raven attempts to convince Yang not to join Ruby in battling against Salem, revealing what Ozpin told her along with the power her gave her.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 6}} When Cinder arrives to force an alliance, Raven agrees to help her obtain the Relic of Knowledge in return for Qrow's death while intending to take the Relic for herself to ensure her tribe's survival.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 9–10}} During the Battle of Haven, after fighting her brother, Raven proceeds to accompany Cinder and Vernal to the vault and reveals herself as the real Spring Maiden when Cinder impales Vernal. Raven defeats Cinder and opens the vault to the Relic, but is later confronted by Yang who realized her mother's true motivation is that she is afraid of Salem despite her stubbornness to admit it. Raven is ultimately forced to relinquish the Relic to avoid a confrontation with Salem, and tearfully apologizes to Yang as she leaves to see Taiyang in Patch.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11–14}}

Raven alludes to [[Huginn and Muninn|Huginn]] from Norse mythology.<ref name="Backwardz Compatible">{{cite web|url=https://roosterteeth.com/episode/backwardz-compatible-2018-god-of-war-2 |title=Backwardz Compatible |website=Rooster Teeth}}</ref>

=== Branwen Tribe ===
* Vernal Voiced by: [[Amber Lee Connors]]: Raven's right-hand woman and decoy for the title of the Spring Maiden. Her weapons are a pair of [[wind and fire wheels]] with guns attached inside. In her debut in Volume 5, Vernal tells Weiss that the tribe is planning on using her as a ransom for Jacques, and that her older sister has returned to Atlas.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 3}} Later on during the Battle of Haven, she engages Weiss in combat as per Raven's orders, and easily defeats her.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 11}} At the vault of the Relic of Knowledge, Vernal is impaled and killed by Cinder for the Maiden's power, only for her to be exposed as a decoy for Raven.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 12–13}}
* Shay D. Mann Voiced by: [[Clifford Chapin]]: A bandit from Raven's tribe who whom Yang brutally punched at a gas station where he harasses her while drunk, leading her to the camp with the intend to rob her before he and his aid are defeated and learning Yang is Raven's daughter.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 1 & 4}} Later, while guarding the camp gates, he is confronted by Cinder's faction and Watts.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 5, Ch. 7}} His name is a play on the phrase "shady man".

=== Grimm ===
The Grimm, also known as the Creatures of Grimm, are soulless monsters that appear throughout the natural world of Remnant as they are devoid of aura and thrive on the worst aspects of humanity. The Grimm are creations of the God of Darkness that manifest from his domain's Grimm Pits, pools containing a dark substance which kills a non-Grimm being on contact. The Grimm were created for the purpose to destroy everything made by the God of Light, which later includes humans whom both brothers created together.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch 8}} Following the previous version of humanity wiped out by their creator, Grimm instinctively prey on new humans and Faunus races before their discovered of "Dust" with the Huntsmen and Huntresses established to control the creatures' numbers. But Salem, as the result of her attempted suicide in a Grimm Pit, is able to control the Grimm as she orchestrated Beacon's downfall through Cinder Fall to erode enough of the peoples' faith in the Hunters to enable the Grimm to annihilate the city nearly unopposed.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch. 12}}

Grimm display no enmity towards normal wildlife; humans and Faunus are the only races attacked on sight. When Grimm die, their corporeal form evaporates, preventing detailed anatomical or biological studies. Grimm in captivity will die, if they are unable to kill their captors or escape, implying that they cannot be kept alive by conventional means. If the theory of Grimm not needing to feed is true, it is entirely possible that they survive on negative emotions as sustenance, or the act of killing in itself. Because they were created by the God of Darkness, Grimm can be fearful around those with silver-eyes whose access to the God of the Light's power can have varying effects on them that include paralysis, petrification, and complete atomization.

Grimm are portrayed as black in color with white masks with yellow markings and red trail-like designs. The name "Grimm" comes from the [[Brothers Grimm|pair of brothers who wrote several fairy tales]]. The vocal sound effects of the Grimm are done by William Orendorff.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1 credits}}

; Known species of Grimm
* Beowolf: Grimm creatures who bear resemblance to [[Werewolf|werewolves]] that serve as foot soldiers for the stronger Grimm. In the "Red Trailer", the Beowolves appeared without their white masks, looking more like the traditional werewolf, before they were redesigned. There is a larger variant of this species known as an Alpha Beowolf. They are named after the poem ''[[Beowolf]]''.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}}
* Geist: Ghost-type Grimm that can possess inanimate objects and turn them into large monsters known as Gigas, indirectly introduced through an Arma Gigas that Weiss defeated in the "White Trailer". The Geist is properly introduced in Volume 4 through a Petra Gigas that Team RNJR defeated. They are named after the [[Geist|spirit]].
* Ursa: [[Bear]]-like Grimm creatures. The smaller and more common ones are called Ursa Minor, while the larger and more powerful variety are known as Ursa Major.<ref name=Majors>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIpWgXHAZ0&t=26m25s ''RWBY'' Panel NYCC 2013]</ref> Their name is [[wikt:ursa|Latin for bear]].{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}}
* King Taijitu: Large [[Amphisbaena]]-like serpentine Grimms, with a second inverted-colored head where the tail would normally be. In the manga, four King Taijitu were fused into an [[orochi]] variant by the Tentacle Grimm.
* Death Stalker: Large [[scorpion]]-like Grimm creatures with glowing golden stingers for tails. They are named after the [[Deathstalker|scorpion species]].{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}}
* Nevermore: Grimm creatures that take the form of a bird, resembling the [[raven]] and [[condor]]. They come in a variety of sizes. The large ones have the ability to shoot large feathers to pin down enemies or prey. They are named after the catchphrase of the poem ''[[The Raven]]'', by [[Edgar Allan Poe]].{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 1}}
* Boarbatusk: [[Wild boar|Boar]]-like Grimm creatures with the ability to tuck into a ball and roll in place charging an attack in similar fashion to [[Sonic the Hedgehog]].
* Goliath: [[African elephant|Elephant]]-like Grimm creatures that can be seen wandering outside Mountain Glenn, most rumored to be centuries old and more intelligent than common Grimm. The variant seen on the Solitas continent is called the Megoliath. According to ''RWBY: After the Fall'', these Grimm attack by flattening their targets. They are named after the [[Philistine]] giant [[Goliath]] from Abrahamic religions and the word Goliath is now often used to describe something incredibly large and powerful.
* Creep: Non-animal Grimm based on [[bird]]s and [[reptile]]s.
* Griffon: Large winged panther-like creatures with spiked tail, talons, and a white bird's head. Its body resembles a large cat, and it has a spiked tail. They are named after [[Griffin|the legendary creature of the same name]].
* Wyvern: A [[Wyvern|dragon]] Grimm whose excretes the dark substance that compromise a Grimm Pit which spawns Grimm. The Wyvern was laying dormant near Mountain Glenn until the events of the Volume 3 finale awakened it for the Fall of Beacon, petrified on top of Beacon Tower when Ruby subconsciously used her silver eyes on it. But the Wyvern still lives while drawing more Grimm to the fallen school.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 3, Ch 12}}
* Tentacle: A [[skull]]-like Grimm exclusive in the manga that can possess organic beings, using that ability to merge other Grimm into a more powerful creature. So far it has only been seen in the manga.
* Ravager: [[Bat]]-like Grimm exclusive to ''RWBY: After the Fall''.
* Beringel: [[Gorilla]]-like Grimm. They are named after the scientific species name of the [[Eastern gorilla]]. In the Volume 6 finale, Salem creates an army of winged Beringel, possibly alluding to the flying monkeys of ''The Wizard of Oz''.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}}
* Sea Feilong: Enormous serpent Grimm that dwell in water and attack with lightning breaths, it has a pair of hidden wings that it can unfurl from its back. It shares the name of the [[Feilong|legendary Chinese winged creature]], Feilong literally meaning "Flying Dragon".
* Seer: Small, [[jellyfish]]-like Grimm that can float in the air, it has long red tentacles tipped with sharp bone like barbs, two seers can connect over large distances serving as a form of communication between Salem and her agents.
* [[Nuckelavee]]: A gigantic Grimm that resembles a demonic humanoid fused to a horse-like creature from the waist down, the monster having destroyed several villages throughout the continent of Anima while being responsible for the total destruction of Ren's village.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4}} It attacks with its elastic limbs and ear-piercing scream. In the finale of Volume 4, it is defeated by Team RNJR and slain by a vengeful Ren.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 4, Ch. 12}}
* Lancer: [[Hornet]]-like Grimm that can fire their stingers like a harpoon capable of destroying airships. The much larger variety, known as the Queen Lancer, can fire projectiles from its abdomen.
* Manticore: A flying lion-like Grimm that breathes fire and uses it scorpion tail. It is named after [[Manticore|the legendary creature from Persian mythology]].
* Sphinx: A flying lioness-like Grimm with a serpent for a tail, leading a pack of Manticores to attack a train when they sense the Relic in Team RWBY's possession. It is named after [[Sphinx|the legendary creature from Greco-Egyptian mythology]].
* Apathy: [[Zombie]]-like Grimm that come in hordes with their ear-piercing shrieks able to drain their humans of they willpower, the ability being fatal if enough Apathy have amassed around a person. One pack of Apathy made their home on Brunswick Farms when the head of the estate captured two members to lessen tension and failed to seal the pack in time, resulting in the death of the entire household in their sleep.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 6}} Team RWBY and company ended up fighting for their lives when they stumbled onto the nest and manage to survive when Ruby learns to consciously use her silver eyes.
* Leviathan: A giant bipedal [[crocodilia]]n Grimm the size of a skyscraper capable of breathing fire. It is able to survive being petrified by Ruby's silver eyes before it is killed by Cordovin.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 13}} It is named after [[Leviathan|the legendary sea monster of Jewish belief]].
* Sabyr: A [[smilodon]]-like Grimm that have incredible speed and can jump long distances.
* Centinels: Giant [[centipede]]-like Grimm capable of burrowing through the ground.
* Teryx: [[Raptor (bird)|Raptor]]-like Grimm with translucent wings.

=== Other ===
* Lil' Miss Malachite Voiced by: [[Luci Christian]]: The leader of a Mistral gang whose members have a spider tattoo, possessing a sixth sense that allows her to predict the current whereabouts of others. When approached by Cinder for the location of Ruby and her friends in Volume 6, Malachite withheld the information out of curiosity over who would ask for Cinder.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 2}} Her hunch is later proven true when hired by Neo.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 5}} She is also the mother of the twins Melanie and Miltia.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6 Commentary}} She is an allusion of [[Little Miss Muffet]].
* Tock Voiced by: Ruth Urquhart: A crocodile Faunus from Maria's younger days as the Grimm Reaper, armed with a pair of saber swords, a set of sharp metal implanted teeth and possessing a Semblance that makes her nigh invulnerable for one minute at a time. Tock was hired to assassinate Maria and steal her silver eyes, managing to blind Maria before being killed by her.{{Ref|Volume|Vol. 6, Ch. 7}} She is an allusion to the Crocodile from ''[[Peter Pan]]''.
* Dr. Merlot Voiced by: [[Dave Fennoy]]: The main antagonist of ''[[RWBY: Grimm Eclipse]]'', which takes place between Volumes 2 and 3 of the series, a scientist and former colleague of Ozpin before they drifted apart due to Merlot's obsession of understanding the Grimm and improve on their design. Merlot established Merlot Industries in the Mountain Glenn settlement, being the cause of the settlement's failure when he had his subordinates attract Grimm for use in their experiments. But Merlot survived and continued his research on an island where he created mutant variants until Team RWBY's interference forces him to self-destruct his laboratory, his fate currently a mystery. Dave Fennoy returned to the series in Volume 7 as Dr. Pietro Polendina.
* Carmine Esclados A veteran Huntress who is the main antagonist of ''RWBY: After the Fall'', armed with sai and possessing a telekinesis Semblance she uses to manipulate her weapons and local weather patterns. She was originally from Atlas before she transferred to Vacuo and graduated Shade Academy, hired alongside her partner Bertilak Celadon by an unknown figure into trafficking people with highly potent Semblances. This ultimately led to their defeat and arrest by Team CFVY.<ref name="After the Fall"/>
* Mike and Marty Voiced by: William Ball and Joe Nicolosi: Cinder's Beowolf lackies from "RWBY Chibi".
* Floyd Voiced by: [[Kerry Shawcross]]: Cinder's Geist henchman from "RWBY Chibi", having a rivalry with Mike and Marty.

==Works cited==
* {{note|Volume|}} "Vol." is the shortened form for "Volume" and refers to the DVD volume or season for the series. "Ch." is shortened for "Chapter" and refers to the episode number within the volume, with Vol. 1 having 16 and Vol. 2–4 having 12 chapters. "WoR" refers to "World of Remnant", an encyclopedic series of short videos which reveals more information about the world of RWBY. "WoR" has been incorporated in the RWBY volumes since Volume 2. See [[List of RWBY episodes]] for more details.

==Notes==
{{notelist}}

==References==
{{reflist|30em}}

==External links==
{{Commons|RWBY}}
* [http://www.roosterteeth.com/ Rooster Teeth] official site

{{Rooster Teeth Productions}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:List Of Characters In RWBY}}
[[Category:RWBY|*]]
[[Category:Fictional monster hunters]]

Kill Switch (2017 film)

2020-03-01T23:58:08Z

Die-yng: /* Handlung */ A German version of the plot should not appear on the English wiki-page, therefore I deleted it. If someone thinks the film needs a German Wikipedia article, they should create it.

{{Infobox film
| name = Kill Switch
| image = Kill Switch 2017 film.jpg
| alt =
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = Tim Smit
| producer = {{Plainlist|
* [[Aaron Ryder]]
* Sander Verdonk
* Denis Wigman
}}
| writer = {{Plainlist|
* Charlie Kindiger
* [[Omid Nooshin]]
}}
| starring = {{Plainlist|
* [[Dan Stevens]]
* [[Bérénice Marlohe]]
* [[Tygo Gernandt]]
* [[Charity Wakefield]]
* Bas Keijzer
* Mike Libanon
* Mike Reus
}}
| music = {{Plainlist|
* Dries Bijlsma
* Rob Peters
* Don Diablo
}}
| cinematography = Jaco van Ree
| editing = Wouter van Luijn
| distributor = [[Saban Capital Group|Saban Films]]
| released = {{Film date|2017|6|16|United States}}
| runtime = 92 minutes<ref>{{cite web | url=https://www.amctheatres.com/movies/kill-switch-53641 | title=''Kill Switch'' | work=[[AMC Theatres]] | accessdate=May 21, 2017}}</ref>
| country = {{Plainlist|
* United States
* Netherlands
}}
| language = English
| budget =
| gross =
| production companies = {{Plainlist|
* [[FilmNation Entertainment]]
* SquareOne Entertainment
* RainMaker Films
* CTM Productions
}}
}}

'''''Kill Switch''''' (also known as '''''Redivider''''') is an American-Dutch [[science fiction]] film, directed by Tim Smit in his directorial debut, from a screenplay by Charlie Kindinger and [[Omid Nooshin]]. It stars [[Dan Stevens]], [[Bérénice Marlohe]], [[Tygo Gernandt]], [[Charity Wakefield]], Bas Keijzer, Mike Libanon, and Mike Reus.

The film was released on June 16, 2017 by [[Saban Capital Group|Saban Films]].

==Plot==
Sometime in the near future, physicist and former [[NASA]] pilot Will Porter is recruited by Alterplex, a power company that has built a massive tower that taps into unlimited [[quantum energy]]. It is revealed that it is destroying a [[Multiverse|mirror universe]] Earth referred to as "The Echo" and that the inhabitants there also have an energy tower. Strange gravity anomalies and unexplained deaths are occurring in The Echo world that are blamed on the tower, as it takes energy from that world. There was supposed to be no life there but due to a malfunction, the device created a true mirror Earth full of life, and now both Earths face destruction unless one is destroyed within less than a day.

Porter has been sent to The Echo with a cube device called the "Redivider" believing it will balance the power transfer between the two universes and set things right. Instead, he learns the device is a kill switch that will destroy The Echo forcing him to decide which universe to sacrifice in order to save the other. The army in The Echo know this and are trying to arrest or kill him. There is also a group of "anti-tower rebels" who are actively fighting the armed forces of the towers.
==Cast==
* [[Dan Stevens]] as Will Porter
* [[Bérénice Marlohe]] as Abby
* [[Tygo Gernandt]] as Michael
* [[Charity Wakefield]] as Mia
* Bas Keijzer
* Mike Libanon
* Mike Reus as Dr. Klintsen

==Production==
In February 2016, it was announced [[Dan Stevens]] and [[Bérénice Marlohe]] had been cast in the film, with Tim Smit directing the film, from a screenplay by Charlie Kindinger and [[Omid Nooshin]]. [[Aaron Ryder]] will serve as a producer on the film under his [[FilmNation Entertainment]] banner.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.screendaily.com/festivals/berlin/filmnation-sci-fi-redivider-starring-dan-stevens-lands-at-efm/5100296.article|title=FilmNation sci-fi 'Redivider' starring Dan Stevens lands at EFM|website=[[Screen International]]|first=Andreas|last=Wiseman|date=February 13, 2016|accessdate=April 22, 2017}}</ref>

[[Don Diablo]] wrote, scored and performs in the film's theme song, "Echoes".<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.dancingastronaut.com/2017/05/don-diablo-releases-echoes-official-theme-song-kill-switch-watch/|title=Don Diablo releases 'Echoes' as official theme song for Kill Switch|website=Dancingastronaut.com|accessdate=9 September 2017}}</ref>

==Release==
In February 2017, [[Saban Capital Group|Saban Films]] acquired distribution rights to the film.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://deadline.com/2017/02/saban-acquires-redivider-dan-stevens-filmnation-berlin-1201907866/|title=Saban Buys FilmNation’s ‘Redivider’ Starring Dan Stevens & Bérénice Marlohe – Berlin|website=[[Deadline Hollywood]]|first=Nancy|last=Tartaglione|date=February 10, 2017|accessdate=April 22, 2017}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/berlin-saban-films-lands-redivider-starring-dan-stevens-974233|title=Berlin: Saban Films Lands 'Redivider' Starring Dan Stevens|website=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|first=Rebecca|last=Ford|date=February 10, 2017|accessdate=April 22, 2017}}</ref>

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
* {{IMDb title|5464234}}
* {{Rotten-tomatoes|kill_switch_2017}}

[[Category:2017 films]]
[[Category:American films]]
[[Category:Dutch films]]
[[Category:American science fiction films]]
[[Category:Directorial debut films]]
[[Category:FilmNation Entertainment films]]
[[Category:Films shot from the first-person perspective]]
[[Category:Films about parallel universes]]

The Boy (2016 film)

2020-02-22T00:49:33Z

Die-yng: /* Plot */

{{short description|Chinese-American horror film}}
{{Infobox film
| name = The Boy
| image = TheBoy 2016-OfficialPoster.jpg
| alt =
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = [[William Brent Bell]]
| producer = {{plainlist|
* Matt Berenson
* Jodyne Herron
* [[Gary Lucchesi]]
* [[Tom Rosenberg]]
* Jim Wedaa
}}
| writer = Stacey Menear
| starring = {{plainlist|
* [[Lauren Cohan]]
* [[Rupert Evans]]
}}
| music = [[Bear McCreary]]
| cinematography = [[Daniel Pearl (cinematographer)|Daniel Pearl]]
| editing = [[Brian Berdan]]
| production companies = {{plainlist|
* [[Lakeshore Entertainment]]
* [[Huayi Brothers|Huayi Brothers Pictures]]
* [[Vertigo Entertainment]]
* [[STXfilms]]
}}
| distributor = STXfilms
| released = {{Film date|2016|01|22}}
| runtime = 97 minutes<ref>{{cite web | url=https://bbfc.co.uk/releases/boy-film | title=''THE BOY'' (15) | work=[[British Board of Film Classification]] | date=February 9, 2016 | accessdate=February 9, 2016}}</ref>
| country = {{Plainlist|
* United States<ref name=bfi>{{cite web|url=http://www.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/56b86d201923e|title=The Boy (2015)|work=[[British Film Institute]]|accessdate=June 13, 2016}}</ref>
* China<ref name=bfi/>
}}
| language = English
| budget = $10 million<ref name="budget">{{cite web|url=https://www.thewrap.com/revenant-5th-wave-boy-dirty-grandpa-ride-along-2-star-wars-preview-box-office/ |title=Can ‘The Revenant’ Beat Back 3 Newcomers to Finally Top Box Office? |work= TheWrap.com}}</ref>
| gross = $64.1 million<ref name="BOM">{{cite web |url=https://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=boy2016.htm |title=The Boy (2016) |website=Box Office Mojo |accessdate=May 12, 2016}}</ref>
}}
'''''The Boy''''' is a 2016 [[horror film]]<ref name=rt>{{cite web |url=https://rottentomatoes.com/m/the_boy/ |title=The Boy (2016) |website=Rotten Tomatoes |accessdate=December 11, 2017}}</ref> directed by [[William Brent Bell]] and written by Stacey Menear. The film stars [[Lauren Cohan]] and [[Rupert Evans]]. It is an international co-production between China and the United States.<ref name=bfi/> Filming began on March 10, 2015, in [[Victoria, British Columbia]].

''The Boy'' was released in the United States on January 22, 2016, by [[STXfilms]]. The film grossed $64 million worldwide. A stand-alone sequel, ''[[Brahms: The Boy II]]'', was released on February 21, 2020.

==Plot==
American Greta Evans travels to [[England]] after being hired as a nanny by the elderly Heelshires. Upon her arrival, the couple introduce Greta to her charge: a porcelain doll named Brahms that they treat like their son. Over the next day, the Heelshires coach Greta on taking care of Brahms and their house while they are on holiday; leaving her a list of strict rules to follow, including reading to Brahms in a loud, clear voice, playing loud music for him, and putting his food in the freezer if he doesn't eat it, and setting up rat traps outside, to make sure the rats don't get inside the house's walls.

Initially, Greta ignores the rules. She regularly calls her sister Sandy, who tells her that her abusive ex-boyfriend Cole has been trying to find out where she is. Malcolm, the local grocery deliveryman, stops by and Greta learns that the real Brahms was killed in a fire 20 years ago on his eighth birthday. Malcolm asks Greta out and she accepts. While preparing for the date, however, her dress and jewelry vanish while she is in the shower; she is lured to the attic by strange noises and locked inside, and is mysteriously let out the next morning. She explains to Malcolm what happened, and they briefly discuss the real Brahms, whom Malcolm says Mr. Heelshire described as "odd."

Strange events begin to occur: a child's sobs are heard in the hallways, phone calls are cut off, and the doll seems to move on its own, vanishing and reappearing elsewhere in the house. After receiving a phone call in which a child's voice urges her to follow the rules, Greta locks herself in her room. She later finds a [[peanut butter and jelly sandwich]] outside her door. Believing that Brahms' spirit lives within the doll, Greta begins to take the rules more seriously. Remembering that the Heelshires said Brahms was shy, Greta realizes that the doll only moves when she isn't in the room with him; she demonstrates this to Malcolm and he becomes worried. He informs Greta that a girl Brahms was friends with was found in the forest with her skull crushed. Before the police could question Brahms, the Heelshires' house was burnt down with him in it. Malcolm warns her not to stay, but Greta, having previously suffered a miscarriage after being beaten by Cole, feels obligated to care for Brahms. Elsewhere, the Heelshires write a goodbye letter to Brahms before drowning themselves.

One evening, Cole appears in the house, intending to force Greta back home. For Greta’s safety, Malcolm decides to stay nearby. As she puts Brahms to sleep, Greta asks the doll for help. Cole wakes up and sees a message written in blood urging him to leave. Believing it was done by either Greta or Malcolm, Cole angrily snatches the doll from Greta and smashes it. The house begins to shake and Cole hears noises behind a mirror and investigates. The mirror explodes and knocks Cole to the ground; from a hole behind the mirror, the real, now-adult Brahms wearing a porcelain mask identical to the doll’s face emerges; after apparently surviving the fire, Brahms has been living in the walls of the house. Brahms attacks and kills Cole, then turns on Malcolm and Greta.

As they are pursued, Greta and Malcolm discover Brahms' room; a doll made from Greta's missing dress, hair and jewelry sits in Brahms' bed, and Greta finds the final letter from the Heelshires revealing their plan of leaving Greta as a mate for Brahms. Brahms catches them and knocks out Malcolm, threatening to kill him if Greta leaves. Greta flees, but returns shortly after to save Malcolm. Arming herself with a screwdriver, Greta invokes the rules and forces Brahms to go to bed. He asks for a good night kiss; when he tries to kiss her, she stabs him with the screwdriver. Brahms throws Greta across the room and tries to choke her, but she pushes the screwdriver in deeper and he collapses. Greta rescues Malcolm and they escape the house.

Later, Brahms, who has survived, is seen repairing the shattered doll.

==Cast==
* [[Lauren Cohan]]<ref name="CohanCast" /> as Greta Evans
* [[Rupert Evans]]<ref name="Mar2015THR" /> as Malcolm
* [[Jim Norton (Irish actor)|Jim Norton]]<ref name="Mar2015THR" /> as Mr. Heelshire
* [[Diana Hardcastle]]<ref name="Mar2015THR" /> as Mrs. Heelshire
* [[Ben Robson]]<ref name="Mar2015THR" /> as Cole
* Jett Klyne as young Brahms Heelshire
* James Russell as adult Brahms Heelshire
* Lily Pater as Emily Cribbs

==Production==
===Development===
[[File:Craigdarroch Castle just after sunset - view from the west, Victoria, Canada.jpg|thumb|[[Craigdarroch Castle]], used as the filming location for ''The Boy'']]
On July 14, 2014, it was announced that ''[[The Devil Inside (film)|The Devil Inside]]''{{'}}s director [[William Brent Bell]] was set to direct a supernatural thriller, ''The Inhabitant'', which [[Tom Rosenberg]] and [[Gary Lucchesi]] would produce through [[Lakeshore Entertainment]], along with [[Roy Lee]], Matt Berenson, Jim Wedaa, through Vertigo Entertainment.<ref name=BrentBell>{{cite news|last1=Busch|first1=Anita|title=‘Devil Inside’ Helmer William Brent Bell Set To Direct ‘The Inhabitant’|url=https://deadline.com/2014/07/william-brent-bell-next-movie-inhabitant-director-798932/|accessdate=March 11, 2015|publisher=deadline.com|date=July 14, 2014}}</ref> The script was written by Stacey Menear.<ref name="BrentBell" />
===Casting===
On January 23, 2015, [[Lauren Cohan]] signed on to star for the lead role in the film, which by then had been retitled ''The Boy''.<ref name=CohanCast>{{cite news|last1=Kit|first1=Borys|title='Walking Dead' Star to Headline Horror Film 'The Boy' (Exclusive)|url=https://hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/walking-dead-star-headline-horror-766226|accessdate=March 11, 2015|publisher=hollywoodreporter.com|date=January 23, 2015}}</ref> On March 11, 2015, more cast was announced, which included [[Jim Norton (Irish actor)|Jim Norton]], [[Diana Hardcastle]], Ben Robson, [[Rupert Evans]], and James Russell.<ref name=Mar2015THR>{{cite news|last1=Ford|first1=Rebecca|title=Lakeshore, STX Entertainment's Horror Film 'The Boy' Sets Cast (Exclusive)|url=https://hollywoodreporter.com/news/lakeshore-stx-entertainments-horror-film-777813|accessdate=July 25, 2015|work=hollywoodreporter.com|date=March 11, 2015}}</ref>
===Filming===
On March 10, 2015, [[principal photography]] on ''The Boy'' officially began in [[Victoria, British Columbia|Victoria]], British Columbia, Canada, at [[Craigdarroch Castle]].<ref name=ProductionBegins>{{cite news|last1=Lesnick|first1=Silas|title=Production Begins on The Boy, Starring Lauren Cohan|url=https://comingsoon.net/movies/news/418255-production-begins-on-the-boy-starring-lauren-cohan|accessdate=March 11, 2015|publisher=comingsoon.net|date=March 10, 2015}}</ref> Filming was completed a month later, on April 12, 2015.<ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.filmla.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2016_film_study_WEB.pdf|title=2016 Feature Film Study|last=FilmL.A.|first=|date=June 2017|work=|accessdate=June 14, 2018|via=}}</ref>

==Release==
On February 25, 2015, [[STX Entertainment]] acquired the US rights to the film and set the film for a February 5, 2016, release, but in March 2015 the release of the film was moved up to January 22, 2016.<ref>{{cite news|last1=Lang|first1=Brent|title=STX Entertainment Dates Films With Matthew McConaughey, Julia Roberts, Jason Blum|url=https://variety.com/2015/film/news/stx-entertainment-dates-films-with-matthew-mcconaughey-julia-roberts-jason-blum-1201441515/|accessdate=March 11, 2015|publisher=variety.com|date=February 25, 2015}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|title=STX Entertainment will now release THE BOY on January 22, 2016|url=https://twitter.com/boxoffice/status/572859054428565504|publisher=twitter.com|accessdate=March 11, 2015}}</ref>

==Reception==
===Box office===
''The Boy'' grossed $35.8{{Nbsp}}million in the United States and Canada, and $32.4{{Nbsp}}million in other territories, for a worldwide total of $68.2 million, against a production budget of $10{{Nbsp}}million.<ref name=BOM/>

The film was released in the United States on January 22, 2016, alongside ''[[Dirty Grandpa]]'' and ''[[The 5th Wave (film)|The 5th Wave]]'', and was projected to gross $10–13{{Nbsp}}million from 2,671 theaters in its opening weekend.<ref name="preview">{{cite web|url=https://boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4147&p=.htm |title='Revenant' Hunts #1 Amid Newcomers, '5th Wave', 'The Boy' and 'Dirty Grandpa' |work= boxofficemojo.com}}</ref> The film made $3.9{{Nbsp}}million on its first day and $10.8{{Nbsp}}million in its opening weekend, finishing fifth at the box office.<ref name=opening/>

===Critical response===
On [[Rotten Tomatoes]], the film holds an approval rating of 30% based on 61 reviews and an average rating of 4.4/10. The site's consensus reads "''The Boy'' could have gone in any number of scary or interesting directions, but instead settles for usual jump scares scattered throughout a pedestrian plot."<ref>{{cite web |url=https://rottentomatoes.com/m/the_boy/ |title=The Boy (2016) |website=Rotten Tomatoes |accessdate=December 2, 2018}}</ref> [[Metacritic]] gives the film a weighted average score of 42 out of 100 based on 10 critics, indicating "mixed or average reviews".<ref>{{cite web |url=https://metacritic.com/movie/the-boy |title=The Boy reviews |website=Metacritic |accessdate=January 28, 2016}}</ref> Audiences polled by [[CinemaScore]] gave the film an average grade of "B−" on an A+ to F scale.<ref name="opening">{{cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2016/01/box-office-dirty-grandpa-the-5th-wave-the-boy-during-storm-jonas-1201688827/ |title=''The Revenant'' No. 1, ''Ride Along'' Skids On Ice |work=deadline.com}}</ref>

Joe Leydon criticized the average story line in ''[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]'' and commented, "Despite game efforts by the cast, this tepid horror opus is never scary enough to overcome its silly premise."<ref>{{cite web|url=https://variety.com/2016/film/reviews/the-boy-review-1201685160/|title=''The Boy'' Review: A Tepid Horror Movie |first=Joe |last= Leydon| work= Variety.com}}</ref> Chris Alexander of [[ShockTilYouDrop]] called it "one of the best contemporary wide-release horror movies I've seen in years".<ref>{{cite web| url=http://www.shocktillyoudrop.com/reviews/395615-review-boy-atmospheric-wildly-gothic-gem/|title=The Boy is an Atmospheric, Wildly Gothic Gem|first=Chris|last=Alexander |date=23 January 2016|work=shocktilyoudrop.com}}</ref> A review for [[The Wrap]] stated that the "scary-doll horror flick is creepy and clever".<ref>{{cite web| url=https://thewrap.com/the-boy-review-scary-doll-horror-flick-is-creepy-and-clever/|title=The Boy Review: Scary-Doll Horror Flick Is Creepy and Clever|first=Inkoo|last=Chang|date=22 January 2016|work=thewrap.com}}</ref>

In 2017, [[GQ Magazine]] called it "the most underrated horror movie of 2016".<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.gq.com/story/the-boy-showtime-underrated-horror-movie/|title=This Week, Watch The Most Underrated Horror Movie of 2016|first=Tom|last=Phillip |date=31 May 2017|work=gq.com}}</ref>

== Sequel ==
{{main article|Brahms: The Boy II}}

By October 2018, it was announced that a sequel was in development.<ref>https://www.theprogress.com/entertainment/katie-holmes-in-victoria-to-film-horror-movie-sequel/</ref> [[Katie Holmes]] was cast to play Liza, the mother of a young family who, unaware of the dark history, move into the Heelshire Mansion. The premise follows the story of the youngest son finding the porcelain doll, and befriending Brahms. William Brent Bell and Stacey Menear returned as director and screenwriter, respectively. Tom Rosenberg, Gary Lucchesi, Eric Reid, Matt Berenson, Jim Wedaa and [[Roy Lee]] served as producers.<ref>https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/1000461-katie-holmes-to-lead-horror-sequel-the-boy-2</ref> It was released on February 21, 2020.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=theboy2.htm|title=The Boy 2|website=[[Box Office Mojo]]|accessdate=June 21, 2019}}</ref><ref>https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3589281/brahms-boy-ii-will-now-haunt-theaters-february-21-2020/</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://bloody-disgusting.com/movie/3549746/stx-films-bringing-brahms-back-big-screen-boy-2-summer/|title=STX Films Bringing Brahms Back to the Big Screen in ‘The Boy 2’ This Summer|website=[[Bloody-Disgusting.com]]|first=John|last=Squires|date=March 6, 2019|accessdate=March 6, 2019}}</ref>

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
* {{Tumblr|theboymovie|Official page}}
* {{IMDb title|3882082}}
* {{Mojo title|boy2016}}
* {{Rotten Tomatoes|the_boy}}
* {{Metacritic film|the-boy}}

{{William Brent Bell}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Boy}}
[[Category:2016 films]]
[[Category:2016 horror films]]
[[Category:American films]]
[[Category:American horror films]]
[[Category:Chinese films]]
[[Category:English-language films]]
[[Category:Fictional dolls and dummies]]
[[Category:Films set in England]]
[[Category:Films shot in British Columbia]]
[[Category:Huayi Brothers films]]
[[Category:Lakeshore Entertainment films]]
[[Category:STX Entertainment films]]
[[Category:Films directed by William Brent Bell]]
[[Category:Films produced by Roy Lee]]
[[Category:Films produced by Tom Rosenberg]]
[[Category:Films produced by Gary Lucchesi]]
[[Category:Chinese horror films]]

Talk:Kermit Gosnell

2020-01-16T04:36:25Z

Die-yng: /* Excessive detail */

{{Talk header}}
{{Old AfD multi|page=Kermit Gosnell|date=12 April 2013|result= '''Keep''' per [[WP:SNOW]]}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|blp=yes|1=
{{WPBiography|living=yes|class=b|listas=Gosnell, Kermit}}
{{WikiProject Medicine|class=b|importance=Low |reproductive=yes}}
{{WikiProject Crime|class=b|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Philadelphia|class=b|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Serial Killer task force}}
{{WikiProject Organized crime}}
}}
{{Press
| author = Josh Peterson
| title = Battle waged over proposed deletion of disgraced abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell’s Wikipedia page
| org = ''[[The Daily Caller]]''
| url = http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/12/battle-waged-over-abortion-doctors-wikipedia-page/
| date = 2013-04-12
}}
{{Press
| author = Steven Ertelt
| title = Wikipedia Considers Deleting Entry Regarding Kermit Gosnell
| org = ''[[LifeNews.com]]''
| url = http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/12/wikipedia-considers-deleting-entry-regarding-kermit-gosnell/
| date = 2013-04-12
}}
{{Sanctions-abortion}}

}}

== Media Coverage ==

If media coverage of Dr. Gosnell's trial is going to be included on this page, I think it's only fair to also include the media's reaction to proposed legislation that was the direct result of it. The legislation proposed in Texas is very much in response to this trial, as well as a similar case in Houston, which is receiving national attention. Wendy Davis, a state Senator, is receiving national coverage (and praise) from outlets for filibustering this legislation. These same outlets, however, did not cover the Gosnell trial. As a result (and because the public is not fully aware of the Gosnell trial), this legislation is being portrayed a bit unfairly and without context.
:Do you have any evidence of a connection? I did a quick search and I just see a couple of blogs complaining that the media are covering the filibuster and not Gosnell's trial, but of course Gosnell's trial has been widely covered and we would need a reliable source to be able to draw in other events. –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 13:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

== This is a biography... ==

...and not a list of reasons why one side of the abortion debate is composed solely of terrible hypocrites. Since Gosnell has become notable mostly for his going on trial, and there is a genuine issue relating to defects in media coverage of the trial, some such material is on point here. Most of it is not. Argumentative original synthesis about people not named "Kermit Gosnell" definitely does not belong here. If this were an article about the charges and criminal trial, specifically, there might be more room for such things, though not much. In a biography such material is very bad, and should be removed. [[Special:Contributions/168.12.253.66|168.12.253.66]] ([[User talk:168.12.253.66|talk]]) 16:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

== He's a convicted murderer now ==
Time to update the article!!!
[[Special:Contributions/98.118.62.140|98.118.62.140]] ([[User talk:98.118.62.140|talk]]) 20:04, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
:{{done}} (more to come probably) [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 20:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
::The opening sentence should reflect this. [[User:Mark.hamid|Mark.hamid]] ([[User talk:Mark.hamid|talk]]) 22:53, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
::: Opening sentence now reflects this. --[[User:BoboMeowCat|BoboMeowCat]] ([[User talk:BoboMeowCat|talk]]) 02:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Too many editors on wikipedia unfortunately insist on including their own personal political bias into their edits. The fact of the matter is that Dr. Gosnell is a convicted murderer, his number of murders surpasses several individuals categorized as "serial" murders on this very website. This article has NOTHING to do with abortion, as the legitimate abortions Dr. Gosnell performed aren't in contention, only the murders he committed. The well documented bias of wikipedia, and the efforts of pro/anti abortion zealots will likely guarantee the page remains as absent meaningful content as it is now.
[[Special:Contributions/24.60.214.65|24.60.214.65]] ([[User talk:24.60.214.65|talk]]) 21:52, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

== this is wrong ==

"[w]ith eight counts of murder resulting from gross medical malpractice in treatment of patients at his clinics"

The trial did not establish that the infant murders were a result of "malpractice". No, he was convicted of MURDER and there was no mere "malpractice" about it. The death of the adult might rightly be termed malpractice, but the MURDERS of the infants were infanticide, plain and simple. This man is a infant SERIAL KILLER and should be called exactly what he is: A cold-blooded MURDERER !! The information proves at trial is enough to accurately call this man a infant serial killer. But if that's to POV, then at least don't soft-sell his actions against the dead infants (for which he was convicted) as "malpractice".
[[Special:Contributions/98.118.62.140|98.118.62.140]] ([[User talk:98.118.62.140|talk]]) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 21:29, 14 May 2013 (UTC) 

Why is the requested change being ignored? This was NOT a "malpractice" case. This was a MURDER trial for MURDERING infants (and one adult). [[Special:Contributions/98.118.62.140|98.118.62.140]] ([[User talk:98.118.62.140|talk]]) 03:46, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

== Legally dangerous wording (infants-babies VS fetuses) ==
I'am very surpised by the wording ''«several had testified to "snipping" the spines of '''[[infant]]s.''' One of these, Steven Massof, testified that he had personally done '''this''' over a hundred times,»''. The word "infant" include the legal meaning of someone already born, an so, the sentences means we face '''hundred counts of murder''', which is not the case. Shouldn't infant be replace by "fetus" be used instead ? [[User:Yug|Yug]] [[User talk:Yug|(talk)]] 15:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:No. [[User:Federales|Federales]] ([[User talk:Federales|talk]]) 15:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
::Are you aware that an incorrect wording on such issue can lead to prosecution of the wikimedia foundation for defamation ? If we keep "infant", please explain fully why. [[User:Yug|Yug]] [[User talk:Yug|(talk)]] 15:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:::Oh, good grief.
:::We should keep the word "infants" because the sentence is talking about infants. It's in the Grand Jury report. [[User:Federales|Federales]] ([[User talk:Federales|talk]]) 16:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

{{od}}
* This is dangerously close to a legal threat. Please see [[WP:NLT]].
* We are reporting the testimony of the witness, not making a claim ourselves. That testimony was given in open court, and has been widely reported on.
* Indeed, the witness did essentially testify that he himself (under the direction of Gosnell) had possibly committed hundreds of murders (per the precedent set in this trial, where other similar incidents were ruled to be murder). However, we are not claiming he murdered them.
* The source we are using actually uses the term "babies" rather than infants, but that does not substantially change the meaning. I would be open to quiting directly though.
* As in at least the 3 cases involved in this trial, the babies were determined to be ruled alive; the witness testi
*Per the grand jury
**"When you perform late-term “abortions” by inducing labor, you get babies. '''Live, breathing, squirming babies.''' By 24 weeks, most babies born prematurely will survive if they receive appropriate medical care. But that was not what the Women’s Medical Society was about. Gosnell had a simple solution for the unwanted babies he delivered: he killed them. He didn’t call it that. He called it “ensuring fetal demise.” The way he ensured fetal demise was by sticking scissors into the back of the baby’s neck and cutting the spinal cord. He called that “snipping.” Over the years, there were hundreds of “snippings.” Sometimes, if Gosnell was unavailable, the “snipping” was done by one of his fake doctors, or even by one of the administrative staff.
** and "Gosnell encouraged his staff to kill babies born alive;"
* claims of prolific (hundreds) "serial killer" status are easy to source from a variety of reliable sources.
** http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-13/kermit-gosnell-s-verdict-is-not-justice.html
** http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/April-2013/Kermit-Gosnell-Michael-Swango/
** http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2013/04/15/why-kermit-gosnell-hasnt-been-on-page-one/
[[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 16:16, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

:::From the Grand Jury report:

:::::"''Gosnell’s staff testified about scores of gruesome killings of such born-alive '''infants''' carried out mainly by Gosnell, but also by employees Steve Massof, Lynda Williams, and Adrienne Moton.''"

:::And yet, the OP's objection isn't so much out of concern at the use of "infants"; it is actually out of preference for the word "fetus".[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kermit_Gosnell&diff=555190619&oldid=555161093] This is a political POV issue, and doesn't stem from any concern about Wikipedia's perceived legal risk. [[User:Federales|Federales]] ([[User talk:Federales|talk]]) 16:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
::::A preference for accuracy isn't a political POV issue - when talking about fetuses, we ''should'' use "fetus" rather than "baby" or "infant" (and I've had to correct this in articles before). The problem is that Yug is simply wrong and should really have thought about this some more and looked at the sources, because we're ''not'' talking about fetuses. –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 18:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::I raise the issue, the talk will decide. [[User:Yug|Yug]] [[User talk:Yug|(talk)]] 08:21, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
:Per [[WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV]] if there's controversy about whether a usage of a term like "infant" is neutral in a given context, it should be attributed to whoever said it (e.g. the Grand Jury report) rather than stated in the wikivoice as if it were undisputed. I do see that the at least one pro-life web site has argued that zygotes are babies,[http://www.lifenews.com/2013/01/23/narals-pro-abortion-science-fail-a-zygote-is-not-a-baby/] while my understanding is they are not currently legally recognized as such in the US. So I'd consider such terms to be somewhat charged. Their uses should therefore be attributed carefully. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:1630:2:F00:0:0:2456:DAE8|2A00:1630:2:F00:0:0:2456:DAE8]] ([[User talk:2A00:1630:2:F00:0:0:2456:DAE8|talk]]) 11:22, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
::Where is it disputed, can you provide [[WP:RS]] documenting a dispute of the term? [[User:Elizium23|Elizium23]] ([[User talk:Elizium23|talk]]) 13:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
:::Regardless of the dispute in general society as to when life begins, as applied to gosnell, the words baby(ies) and infant(s) have been used by the grand jury, the actual jury (by ruling him guilty of murder), his co-workers (that pled guilty and testified against him) and countless reliable sources using those terms. The only one involved or commenting on this case that used the word "fetus" is Gosnell himself (and his defense) - As he was found guilty, his logic is obviously incorrect. By using the word baby/infant vs fetus, we are not changing the definition of any terms, nor making a news standard to be used in general. We are specifically discussing the babies he fas found guilty of murdering, and the accusations of actions towards other babies in his practice. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 14:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
:Whenever members of the grand jury use "babies" it should be clearly marked as a citation of the grand jury. This was not the case in the former introduction. But it seems fixed now. [[User:Yug|Yug]] [[User talk:Yug|(talk)]] 21:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

===Notice regarding [[WP:NLT]]===

Hello. There is currently a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.  Thank you. [[User:Safiel|Safiel]] ([[User talk:Safiel|talk]]) 21:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
:I have notified Yug on his user talk page and notifying others here that I have asked for an administrator review of the following section, as people raised concerns of a violation of [[WP:NLT]]. I have not accused anybody, just neutrally asked for a review. [[User:Safiel|Safiel]] ([[User talk:Safiel|talk]]) 21:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

== Abortion clinic ==

couple of strongly biased editors are using term "abortion clinic" for Woman healthcare clinic. They are trying to impress their religious views on us/wiki. Sorry but no, you can not use wiki for your propaganda purposes. Woman health care clinics primary care is not abortion.
[[Special:Contributions/50.9.97.53|50.9.97.53]] ([[User talk:50.9.97.53|talk]]) 23:39, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
:Here are the first four [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]] using the term "abortion clinic" which turned up on a Google search. [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/29/kermit-gosnell-abortion-clinic-workers-guilty_n_3351731.html] [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/abortion-doctor-found-tk-murder-article-1.1342672] [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/us/kermit-gosnell-abortion-doctor-gets-life-term.html?_r=0] [http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/13/jury-split-on-2-counts-in-trial-abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell/] Note that one is from the ultra-liberal [[Huffington Post]]. I humbly submit to you that "Women's health care clinic" is much more of a loaded, propaganda term than the other. I know pro-life people who would suggest that abortion is not at all "health care" because pregnancy is not a disease. [[User:Elizium23|Elizium23]] ([[User talk:Elizium23|talk]]) 00:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:Also, please learn how to spell before editing articles. [[User:Elizium23|Elizium23]] ([[User talk:Elizium23|talk]]) 00:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:Oh, and I would further note that this article on the topic of abortion is subject to discretionary sanctions per ARBCOM decision, [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion]] which means you are bound to [[WP:1RR]] in edits, and you have already crossed the line and are eligible for report and block by admins. Please self-revert now to avoid being blocked. [[User:Elizium23|Elizium23]] ([[User talk:Elizium23|talk]]) 00:08, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:with the same merit we could find same "reliable" blog calling our president Negro. Are we going to call him that way in his wiki article? I did not think so. Those clinics are not listed as abortion clinics anywhere.care to dispute that? I really don't care what you,or anyone else,call them in their propaganda.This is encyclopedia not bulvar.
[[Special:Contributions/50.9.97.53|50.9.97.53]] ([[User talk:50.9.97.53|talk]]) 02:14, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

:A quick scan of the first few sources shows pretty conclusively that the only person trying to "impress their views on us" is YOU:

::Business Insider [http://www.businessinsider.com/kermit-gosnell-abortion-clinic-horror-2013-4]:''"Kermit Gosnell's Nightmare '''Abortion Clinic''' Was A Multimillion-Dollar Business6"''

::CNN [http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/12/trial-of-abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell-reveals-a-house-of-horrors/]:''"West Philadelphia doctor Kermit Gosnell is on trial for running an '''abortion clinic''' in which he allegedly killed babies who had survived illegal, late-term abortions, and where a woman allegedly died of a botched painkiller injection."''

::Philadelphia Enquirer [http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-05/news/29384651_1_women-s-medical-society-kermit-gosnell-west-philadelphia-abortion-clinic]:''"Saying he did not believe she would leave behind a 13-year-old daughter she has not seen in 11 weeks, a Philadelphia judge Monday told Pearl Gosnell that she could be released on house arrest while she and her husband await trial over the operation of his West Philadelphia '''abortion clinic'''."''

::Associated Press [http://www.newstribune.com/news/2011/apr/10/jury-philly-docs-failed-report-dangerous-peer/]:''"Doctors at the University of Pennsylvania Health System, which operates two hospitals within a mile of Gosnell’s squalid '''abortion clinic''' in West Philadelphia, saw at least six of these patients — two of whom died. "''

::The New York-freakin'-Times [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/us/23doctor.html?_r=0]:''"Squalid '''Abortion Clinic''' Escaped State Oversight"''
:[[User:Federales|Federales]] ([[User talk:Federales|talk]]) 04:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
:still missing source providing official name of the clinic.Yellow pages etc. Wikipedia is not a bulvar. We need to use official/correct naming. No peacock words. [[Special:Contributions/50.9.97.53|50.9.97.53]] ([[User talk:50.9.97.53|talk]]) 11:22, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

== Excessive detail ==
There seems to be no doubt that the crimes of Gosnell were horrendous but I think this account goes into an excessive level of detail. There are serial killers who don't have hundreds of footnoted statements on their biographies. Granted, there is plenty of documentation because of government involvement and investigation of several agencies that doesn't exist in a typical murder trial. Still, I was very interested in this case and I could only get through half of this article before I started to see a lot of repetition, especially of the goriest details (

I'm loathe to cut out or condense large swaths of this piece because I don't want to step into abortion politics. But I'll check back and if no one else has edited this down, I'll make an effort to. [[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]] [[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']] 18:24, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the above. Many details in the article are repeated several times, especially the case of the murdered woman. It's fine to give a detailed account of the crimes and the circumstances in the clinic, but reading through the article is a chore.
I'm not experienced enough, to decide where to cut out repetitions and were to leave them, but it seems necessary to do it. As it is, I can't help thinking that the repetition is there to hammer down a point, serving the political agenda of some contributors to this piece. [[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 04:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

== RFC - Described as a serial killer ==
{{Archive top |result = ''Closing the discussion per [[wp:SNOW]]; [[Wikipedia:Reliable source|wp:RS]], and [[Wikipedia:BLP|wp:BLP]]. There currently is not enough reliable sourcing (which adhere to the three main principles of BLP) found to substantiate the use of the term "''Serial Killer''" in regards to the article's subject. Consensus leans heavily to option #1 "Not mentioned," as the majority of reliable, third party references do NOT use the descriptive term of "Serial Killer" or any of the other offered variations. Non-Administrative closure--'' [[User:GenQuest|GenQuest]] [[User talk:GenQuest|"Talk to Me"]] 23:54, 15 April 2014 (UTC) |status = closed}}

Kermit Gosnell has been described as a serial killer by a variety of sources, with ABCs Terry Moran (via his Twitter) saying "Probably the most successful serial killer in the history of the world" and a recent film saying "the most prolific serial killer in American History". Below are a smattering of the sources. Should we (eg, is it compliant with policy and consensus to) say

# Not mentioned
# He has been described as a serial killer
# He has been described as the most prolific/successful serial killer in history
# He is a serial killer
# He is the most prolific/successful serial killer in history
# Both #4 & #3
# etc (something else)

Some of the sources:
* http://nypost.com/2014/04/07/gosnell-abortion-film-too-much-for-kickstarters-diverse-censors
* http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100214113/gosnell-the-baby-killer-and-the-liberals-who-shielded-him/
* http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100237960/serial-killer-abortionist-kermit-gosnell-says-hes-innocent-hes-written-some-sucky-poetry-to-prove-it/
* http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/04/16/kermit-gosnell-a-conspiracy-of-silence/
* http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-05-13/kermit-gosnell-s-verdict-is-not-justice
* http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/when-it-comes-to-uncomfortable-truth-todays-liberals-look-away-30153552.html
* http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/2/harper-film-will-tell-the-gosnell-abortion-doctor-/
[[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 15:33, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

===Survey===
* '''#6''' or as a fallback '''#3''' [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 15:33, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
* '''#6''' based on [[WP:RS]]. While this is a [[WP:BLP]] and we don't want to [[WP:PEACOCK]] it up by awarding him the uncontested badge of most prolific, it's pretty safe to repeat what the sources are asserting. [[User:Elizium23|Elizium23]] ([[User talk:Elizium23|talk]]) 16:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''3''' it's what the reliable sources support. [[User:KoshVorlon| '''K'''osh'''V'''orlon]]. '''W'''e '''a'''re '''a'''ll '''K'''osh   16:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''#1, maybe #2 if properly qualified''' These are opinion columns, slinging rhetoric, not facts, abnormal psychology, or criminal justice analysis. I fully share in their repugnance at Gosnell's acts, but even a brief reading of our article on serial killers indicates to me that Gosnell is qualitatively different from the likes of [[John Wayne Gacy]]. We might note the use of the phrase in the rhetoric of those condemning him, but I would insist on a more dispassionate analysis before allowing a flat statement into the article. [[User:Mangoe|Mangoe]] ([[User talk:Mangoe|talk]]) 17:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''1''' unless better sources are presented. None of these are up to the standards we need - hell, some of these are not, or barely, reliable for BLP claims in their news pages and you're using their blogs? Find something better and then we can consider! That's how it works. –[[User:Roscelese|Roscelese]] ([[User talk:Roscelese|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Roscelese|contribs]]) 18:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''#1''' based on the sources presented. This is a BLP. [[User:Aircorn|AIR'''''corn''''']] [[User talk:Aircorn|(talk)]] 08:52, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''#1, maybe #2 if properly qualified''' These sources justify describing him as a murderer but not as a serial killer IMO. [[Special:Contributions/94.193.139.22|94.193.139.22]] ([[User talk:94.193.139.22|talk]]) 11:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''#1 only'''. Even #2 seems inappropriate - the case is outwith the normal definition of a serial killer and the sources using the phrase seem to be opinion pieces. For #2 to even be a possibllity it would depend on the significance of the person giving the opinion, and if there is a rational argument presented in that opinion about why his actions amount to him being serial killer (as opposed to someone just saying that he is a serial killer for shock purposes). [[Special:Contributions/188.220.171.232|188.220.171.232]] ([[User talk:188.220.171.232|talk]]) 02:18, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''#1, maybe #2 if properly qualified''' - Per [[User:Mangoe|Mangoe]]. Sources offered are pretty clearly shenanigans. Frankly, this RfC has the vague odor of a bad faith query posed by someone trying to push pro-life POV. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 13:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''#1'''. Cherry-picking poor sources to make a characterisation clearly driven as much by the debate over abortion as by Gosnell's own actions is unencyclopaedic. Present the facts, and let the readers decide for themselves what they think of him. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 16:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''#1'''. All sources listed are blogs and opinion pieces. As such, they don't pass muster for [[WP:BLP]] or [[WP:RS]]. Even if we describe what others say about him, these are cherry picked and [[WP:UNDUE]]. Mention that he's polarizing and controversial with those sources, but it borders on [[WP:LIBEL]] to call him a "serial killer". Also relevant here are the subsections of [[WP:BLPSTYLE]], especially "tone". [[User:EvergreenFir|EvergreenFir]] ([[User talk:EvergreenFir|talk]]) 20:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''#1''' I would ''really'' like to include the description, but this is BLP, and the sources don't permit it. [[User:DavidLeighEllis|DavidLeighEllis]] ([[User talk:DavidLeighEllis|talk]]) 04:45, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

===Threaded discussion===
Most of the sources cited seem to be opinion pieces or blogs. As such, they can be cited for the opinions of the authors - as opinions. I can see no reason why Wikipedia has to make any definitive assertions one way or another regarding this - our readers are quite capable of making their own minds up for themselves. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 16:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
:{{u|AndyTheGrump}} So is that a !vote for #2 or #3? [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 16:10, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
::It isn't a !vote. It is a comment, in a section entitled 'threaded discussion'. Personally, I prefer to discuss things first, and then decide what my final position will be. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 16:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
:::My thoughts drifted this way as well, [[User:AndyTheGrump|Andy]]. Why can't it say "...has been referenced as one of the most prolific serial killers of all time by national media" or something of that effect? [[User:GRUcrule|GRUcrule]] ([[User talk:GRUcrule|talk]]) 20:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

In re: discussion above, the article is currently listed under [[:Category:American serial killers]]. —[[User talk:Wiki Wikardo|Wiki Wikardo]] 06:25, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

== Murder or "during" abortion procedures. ==

Regarding changes proposed by 68.173.128.206:

Proposed from:
"''... who was convicted of murdering three infants who were [[Born-Alive Infants Protection Act|born alive]] during attempted [[abortion]] procedures.''"

Proposed to:
"''... who was convicted of murdering three infants during late term [[abortion]] procedures.''"

For the act to be considered murder, it had to be performed after such procedures. That is the nature of the crime in question. Gosnell was convicted for murder, not for abortion. The mechanism of the deaths was both initiated and completed after live birth. They were born alive during the attempted procedures, and killed after the attempted procedures. Had they been killed "during" the procedure, it would not be murder, but late term abortion.
[[User:RuralVirologist|RuralVirologist]] ([[User talk:RuralVirologist|talk]]) 21:06, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

== "prolific prescriber of OxyContin" - No Charges, No Conviction ==

Just wondering why yet another article from the Atlantic is cited as the reason for stating that Dr Gosnell was a "prolific prescriber of OxyContin"

That was the false [[Probable Cause]] for searching his offices, which would make all the evidence gathered inadmisable, and no charges of running a prescription mill were ever laid. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.173.128.206|68.173.128.206]] ([[User talk:68.173.128.206#top|talk]]) 22:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC) 

The Atlantic article cited says "Gosnell was allegedly scribbling out as many as 200 narcotic prescriptions per night." But he was never charged. These are [[weasel words]] "was allegedly".

{{od}} the errors in your argument are almost too many to count.
* Not only was he charged, he was convicted. [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pa-abortion-doctor-gets-30-years-in-prescription-drugs-case/] Gosnell pleaded guilty in July, after the murder trial, to charges that he illegally distributed what prosecutors called a "staggering" amount of OxyContin and other painkillers, amounting to hundreds of thousands of pills.
* weasel words is a rule which applies to us as wikipedia editors, not reliable sources.
* "allegedly" in this case is not even weasel words, because he was indicted by the grand jury, based on the allegations (legal usage) of the prosecutor/law enforcement
* there are MANY [[WP:RS]] which back him being a prolific oxy prescriber.
** [https://cdn.cnsnews.com/documents/Gosnell,%20Grand%20Jury%20Report.pdf]And this amount does not include the money he made as one of the top Oxycontin prescribers in the state
** [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/13/kermit-gosnell-found-guilty-murder] Gosnell still faces federal drug charges. Authorities said that he ranked third in the state for OxyContin prescriptions and that he left blank prescription pads at his office and let staff members make them out to cash-paying patients.
** [http://www.businessinsider.com/kermit-gosnell-abortion-clinic-horror-2013-4]That amount doesn't include the money Gosnell allegedly took in from his "side business" writing illegal prescriptions. One law enforcement agent said Gosnell was one of Pennsylvania's top three prescribers of the addictive painkiller Oxycontin.
** The Women's Medical Society was a "pill mill" by day, according that report. Gosnell allegedly didn't even show up during the day. Instead, he left pre-signed prescription pads so his unskilled workers could give walk-in "patients" prescriptions for Oxycontin and other controlled meds if they were willing to pay the right price, the report said.At least one former clinic worker had pleaded guilty to illegally prescribing painkillers at Gosnell's clinic.
[[User:ResultingConstant|ResultingConstant]] ([[User talk:ResultingConstant|talk]]) 14:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

== "Abortionist" ==

The use of the word "abortionist" is charged. dictionary.com says "usually disparaging." Wiktionary says "chiefly in anti-abortion discourse, derogatory."

I would like to change it to "physician."

[[User:Triacylglyceride|Triacylglyceride]] ([[User talk:Triacylglyceride|talk]]) 21:12, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I notice that another user edited it to "abortion provider" without discussion. I have edited it to "physician" as I discussed above.

Kermit Gosnell had many flaws as a physician (to put it mildly), including in areas unrelated to abortion, such as irresponsible and criminal distribution of narcotic pain medications. Other Wikipedia articles on abortion providers who are physicians identify them as physicians first.

Finally, the crimes for which he is best-known were not in the performance of abortion, but in premature induction of labor followed by infanticide. Yet we would not call him a former laborist.

[[User:Triacylglyceride|Triacylglyceride]] ([[User talk:Triacylglyceride|talk]]) 17:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

== serial killer ==

{{u|Prolog}} Gosnell was convicted of 8 counts of murder, and implicated in 100s of more. He is a serial killer. Additionally, you are in violation of the 1rr rule imposted on this page. I suggest you replace the cat before you are sanctioned. [[User:ResultingConstant|ResultingConstant]] ([[User talk:ResultingConstant|talk]]) 18:55, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

:The article does not call the subject a ''serial killer'' nor does it seem to provide a source for the claim. If this killer meets the definition, it should be easy to find some high-quality sources saying exactly that. As stated on [[WP:BLPCAT]], "the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources." [[User:Prolog|Prolog]] ([[User talk:Prolog|talk]]) 19:41, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Sources :
* https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/ct-xpm-2013-04-23-ct-oped-0423-byrne-20130423-story.html
* http://newsroom.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/23/survivor-of-accused-abortionist-kermit-gosnell-tells-her-story/
* https://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110121_DN_Editorial__If_charges_are_true__abortion_doc_was_yet_another_serial_killer.html
* https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2013-05-13/kermit-gosnell-s-verdict-is-not-justice
* https://twitter.com/TerryMoran/status/322741281900097538
* https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2013/04/kermit-gosnell-the-alleged-mass-murderer-and-the-bored-media.html
In addition to the movie and book which are already in the article naming him so.
[[User:ResultingConstant|ResultingConstant]] ([[User talk:ResultingConstant|talk]]) 19:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

:The film does not qualify as a reliable source and the book written by the filmmakers is clearly sensationalistic. The links you listed above are reliable and could be used in the article, except for Twitter, but they use the term as a statement of opinion ([[WP:RSOPINION]]). The scarcity of quality sources using it as a fact suggests that this is fundamentally a [[WP:CATDEF]] issue: "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources ''commonly'' and ''consistently'' define the subject as having." [[User:Prolog|Prolog]] ([[User talk:Prolog|talk]]) 21:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
::They consistently and commonly define the subject as having committed (and been convicted of) multiple murders over an extended period of time. You know, the definition of serial killer. There is no policy that requires sources to use exactly the words that we use in our category names. [[User:ResultingConstant|ResultingConstant]] ([[User talk:ResultingConstant|talk]]) 21:55, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

:::That is not ''the'' definition for serial killer. There are several and few are as expansive as yours. For example, Gosnell does not meet the definition in the FBI's ''[[Crime Classification Manual]]'' ("three or more separate events in three or more separate locations"). There's plenty of killers that are rarely described as serial killers even if they do fit this description, such as hit men and war criminals. The classification of criminals is the purview of reliable sources, not Wikipedia editors. [[User:Prolog|Prolog]] ([[User talk:Prolog|talk]]) 10:14, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

{{od}} We do have multiple reliable sources describing him as a serial killer. The book and film ''do'' count. [[WP:BIASED]] We also have reliable sources saying that they are avoiding talking about this story because it conflicts with their biases and political leanings. Additionally, that is NOT what the crime classification manual says (you may have an outdated edition) :
* Serial murders are involved in three or more separate events with an emotional cooling-off period between homicides
* Serial murder generally involves three or more victims. What sets this category apart from the two others is a cooling-off period between murders. The hiatus could be days, months, or years

* A more succinct FBI definition https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder#two - Serial Murder: The unlawful killing of two or more victims by the same offender(s), in separate events.

* us law https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/540B - The term “serial killings” means a series of three or more killings, not less than one of which was committed within the United States, having common characteristics such as to suggest the reasonable possibility that the crimes were committed by the same actor or actors.
[[User:ResultingConstant|ResultingConstant]] ([[User talk:ResultingConstant|talk]]) 16:42, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

:I'm aware that the FBI has adopted a broad definition, but the ones found in the landmark works have been imprinted into the public mind and this is reflected in how cautiously reliable sources use the term. [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shadow-boxing/201304/defining-serial-killer-so-much-confusion These] [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-superhuman-mind/201705/what-defines-serial-killer articles] write about this issue. The solution is finding an authoritative source that is explicit in its wording. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on the book, but claiming that a drama film is a reliable source for facts is untenable. [[User:Prolog|Prolog]] ([[User talk:Prolog|talk]]) 21:21, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Albert K. Bender

2017-06-30T19:50:27Z

Die-yng: /* Seriously strange to let his unproven claims stand in an Encyclopedia */ new section

{{Talk header}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=Start|listas=Bender, Albert K.}}
{{WikiProject Paranormal|class=start}}
{{WikiProject Minnesota|class=Start}}
{{WikiProject Skepticism|class=Start|importance=Low}}
{{HBLL|class=C|importance=low}}
}}
{{reqphoto}}

== Contested deletion ==
This page should not be speedy deleted as an unambiguous copyright infringement, because... (your reason here) --[[User:Krishnachaitan|Krishnachaitan]] ([[User talk:Krishnachaitan|talk]]) 07:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

The directly copied information from http://http//www.ufopsi.com/articles/albertbender.html is now removed .the information from this website was important for my article so i just reffered from it .please do not delete it took 2 hours to make the article i will be disappointed very much if the article deleted .the article will be very reliable for ufo geeks

::The original sources that you used for the article were not reliable. Two of them were from the same main website and the other was a blog. Do you know of any reliable sources that talk about Bender's life? I have been working on editing the page, but I can only find a handful of good sources but they don't talk much about him. Thanks! [[User:Amgisseman(BYU)|Amgisseman(BYU)]] ([[User talk:Amgisseman(BYU)|talk]]) 21:52, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

== Photo is not Bender's father ==

The photo labeled Bender and his father is incorrect. The other man in the photo is Max Steiner, a jazz musician. Bender was the founder of the Max Steiner music society. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:RobertoTenore|RobertoTenore]] ([[User talk:RobertoTenore|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobertoTenore|contribs]]) 17:44, 14 April 2016 (UTC) 

== Seriously strange to let his unproven claims stand in an Encyclopedia ==

In the paragraph titled Supernatural Encounters" Bender's claims are written as fact, and are uncontested and qualified only in partially.
Considering how science almost completely disregards the claims made by ufologists, I wonder if this is really appropriate for an article in an Encyclopedia.

Ugayafukiaezu

2017-05-01T22:19:36Z

Die-yng:

'''Ugayafukiaezu no Mikoto''' "Unfinished Cormorant-Feather Thatching" {{nihongo|鵜葺草葺不合命|}},<ref name=Kojiki>{{cite book|last2=Heldt|first2=Gustav|author1=Ō no Yasumaro|authorlink1=Ō no Yasumaro|title=The Kojiki : an account of ancient matters|date=2014|isbn=9780231163897}}</ref> commonly shortened to '''Ugayafukiaezu''', is a [[Japan]]ese ([[kami]]) [spirits or deities], and in [[Japanese mythology]], he is the father of Japan's first emperor, [[Emperor Jimmu]].<ref name="kokushi" />

==Nomenclature and story==
[[File:Phalacrocorax carbo ja01.jpg|thumb|right|[[Great cormorant]] with individual feathers visible, [[Hyōgo Prefecture]], [[Japan]]]]
In the ''[[Kojiki]]'' his name appears as {{nihongo|Seaside Brave Lad of Unfinished Cormorant-Feather Thatching|天津日高日子波限建鵜草葦不合命|ama tsu hikohiko nagisa take u ga ya fuki aezu no mikoto}}<ref name=Kojiki/> and in the ''[[Nihon Shoki]]'' the same name appears with a different spelling.

Ugayafukiaezu was a child of [[Hoori]] "Flickering Flame" (the son of [[Ninigi-no-Mikoto]] "Ripening Rice-Ears Lad", who was sent by [[Amaterasu]] to rule the Earth), and of [[Toyotama-hime]] or "Lady Bountiful Soul", a daughter of Ocean Majesty (now identified as the dragon king, [[Ryūjin]]).<ref name="kokushi" />

Although Lady Bountiful Soul became pregnant at Ocean Majesty's undersea palace of [[Ryūgū-jō]], she opted not to bear the child in the ocean and decided to head to shore.

On the shore, the parents attempted to build a house in which she could give birth, and attempted to construct the roof with feathers of the [[cormorant]] instead of [[Cladium|saw grass]]. However, while they were finishing the roof, she went into labor.
{{quote|And so just as she was about to give birth, she spoke to her husband, saying:
"When their time draws near, people of other lands all give birth in the form of their homeland. So I will now give birth in my original form. Please, I beg you, do not look at me!"
Now, thinking these words strange, he sneaked up and peered in at her just as she was about to give birth.
She had become an enormous sea beast many arm spans in length that was twisting and slithering around on its stomach.
In shock and fright at the sight of her, he immediately fled far away.<ref name=Kojiki/>}}
In shame, the Lady Bountiful Soul fled, leaving behind her newborn, whom she called "Unfinished Cormorant-Feather Thatching" because of her birthing hut.<ref name="Kojiki"/>

Later, when Ugayafukiaezu reached adulthood, he married his aunt, Tamayori-hime "Lady Summoned Soul", and they had four children: ''Itsuse'' "Hallowed Harvest", ''Inahi'' "Rice Spirit", ''Mikenu'' "Master Mighty Offerings" and the future Emperor Jinmu, who had several names: Master Plentiful Mighty Offerings, Young Master Mighty Offerings and Boulder Hamlet Lad of Sacred Yamato.<ref name=Kojiki/>

Mikenu traveled to Tokoyo, the "Everworld", and Inahi went into the ocean to be with his mother. The eldest and youngest set forth to rule the land and while they did so together for a time, after Itsuse died, their youngest became the first ruler of earth.<ref name=Kojiki/>

==References==
{{reflist|2|refs=

<ref name="kokushi">{{cite encyclopedia | encyclopedia = Kokushi Daijiten | title = 鵜葺草葺不合命 | url = http://rekishi.jkn21.com/ | accessdate = 2012-12-04 | year = 2012 | publisher = Shogakukan | location = Tokyo | language = Japanese | trans_title = Ugayafukiaezu | oclc = 683276033}}</ref>

}}

==External links==
*[http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=161 Encyclopedia of Shinto]

{{jmyth navbox long}}

[[Category:Japanese gods]]
[[Category:Shinto kami]]

A Good Day to Die Hard

2017-04-26T22:49:41Z

Die-yng:

{{Infobox film
| name = A Good Day to Die Hard
| image = A Good Day to Die Hard.jpg
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = [[John Moore (director)|John Moore]]
| producer = {{Plainlist |
*[[Alex Young (studio executive)|Alex Young]]
*[[Wyck Godfrey]]
}}
| screenplay = [[Skip Woods]]
| story =
| based on = {{basedon|Characters|[[Roderick Thorp]]}}
| starring = {{Plainlist |
*[[Bruce Willis]]
*[[Jai Courtney]]
*[[Sebastian Koch]]
*Rasha Bukvić
*[[Cole Hauser]]
*[[Yuliya Snigir]]
}}
| music = [[Marco Beltrami]]
| cinematography = [[Jonathan Sela]]
| editing = [[Dan Zimmerman]]
| studio = {{Plainlist |
*Giant Pictures
*[[TSG Entertainment]]
}}
| distributor = [[20th Century Fox]]
| released = {{Film date|2013|01|31|[[Leicester Square]]|2013|02|14|United States}}
| runtime = 98 minutes{{citation needed|date=January 2017}}
| country = United States
| language = {{Plainlist |
*English
*Russian
}}
| budget = $92 million<ref name="BOM">{{cite web|url=http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=diehard5.htm |title=A Good Day to Die Hard (2013) |publisher=[[Box Office Mojo]] |date=February 14, 2013 |accessdate=February 24, 2013}}</ref>
| gross = $304.7 million<ref name="BOM"/>
| image_size =
}}
'''''A Good Day to Die Hard''''' is a 2013 American [[action film|action]] [[thriller film]] and the fifth installment in the [[Die Hard (film series)|''Die Hard'' film series]]. The film was directed by [[John Moore (director)|John Moore]] and written by [[Skip Woods]], and stars [[Bruce Willis]] as [[John McClane]]. The main plot finds McClane travelling to [[Russia]] to get his estranged son, Jack, an undercover CIA agent, out of prison. He is soon caught in the crossfire of a global terrorist plot. Alongside Willis, the film also stars [[Jai Courtney]], [[Cole Hauser]], [[Yuliya Snigir]] and [[Sebastian Koch|Sebastian Koch]] as the film's villain.

Talks of a fifth ''[[Die Hard]]'' film began before the release of the fourth installment, ''[[Live Free or Die Hard]]'', with Willis affirming that the latter would not be the last in the series, but pre-production did not start until September 2011, when John Moore was officially announced as the director. Filming began in April 2012, primarily in [[Budapest]], [[Hungary]].

''A Good Day to Die Hard'' [[Film premiere|premiered]] in [[Los Angeles]] on January 31, 2013, coinciding with the unveiling of a ''Die Hard'' mural at the Fox Lot,<ref name="premiere">{{cite news|url=http://www.shockya.com/news/2013/02/05/a-good-mural-to-die-hard/|title=A Good Mural to DIE HARD|author=Philip|work=Crave Online|date=2013-02-05|accessdate=2013-02-08}}</ref> and was released in certain [[East Asia|East]] and [[Southeast Asia]]n countries on February 7 and in the United States and Canada on February 13.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.facebook.com/DieHardMovies/app_151503908244383|title='A Good Day To Die Hard International Release Dates'|accessdate=2012-10-20}}</ref> It is the first ''Die Hard'' film to use [[Dolby Atmos|Dolby Atmos Surround Mixing]] and the first to also be released in [[IMAX]] theaters. Unlike the previous films, ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' was a critical failure, receiving overwhelmingly negative reviews which cited implausible action sequences, a cliched script, a weak plot, Moore's direction, and a lack of characterization, although the special effects were praised.<ref name="rottentomatoes">{{cite web|url=http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_good_day_to_die_hard/ |title=A Good Day to Die Hard Reviews|work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]]|publisher=Flixster|accessdate=July 8, 2013}}</ref><ref name="metacritic">{{cite web|url=http://www.metacritic.com/movie/a-good-day-to-die-hard|title=A Good Day to Die Hard (2013): Reviews|work=[[Metacritic]]|publisher=CNET Networks|accessdate=June 12, 2013}}</ref> It is the first film produced by [[TSG Entertainment]], since distributor [[20th Century Fox]]'s departure from [[Dune Entertainment]] upon the completion of their distribution contract at the end of 2012.

A sequel entitled ''Die Hard: Year One'' was confirmed to be in works while also intended to be an original story of John McClane.{{citation needed|date=March 2017}}

==Plot==
In Moscow, Viktor Chagarin, a high-ranking, but corrupt, Russian official plans to incriminate former billionaire and government [[whistleblower]] Yuri Komarov in an imminent rigged trial unless Komarov hands over a secret file believed to contain evidence incriminating Chagarin. Separately, Jack McClane, who has been arrested after an assassination attempt, negotiates for a shorter sentence by offering to testify against Komarov. Meanwhile, Jack's father, [[NYPD]] Detective [[John McClane]], who has not been in touch with his son for several years, has learned his son is in trouble and travels to Russia to help. As John arrives and approaches the courthouse where Komarov is on trial, a bomb explosion, orchestrated by Chagarin's henchman Alik, occurs in the courthouse and Jack breaks free with Komarov. Seeing his son, John confronts him, but their dispute is cut short as Alik and his men chase them in a US [[Cougar (vehicle)|Cougar]] [[MRAP]] through the streets of Moscow. John, Jack, and Komarov manage to escape.

Hiding in a safe house, John finds out that his son is a [[Central Intelligence Agency|CIA]] officer and has been on an undercover operation for the past three years. Jack's partner, Collins, demands the file's location from Komarov so that the CIA can bring Chagarin down. Komarov eventually agrees on condition that he and his daughter are given safe passage out of Russia. Collins is eventually shot and killed while the McClanes and Komarov come under heavy gunfire from Chagarin's men, but they escape. They make their way to a hotel in the city to fetch the key to the vault containing the file. There they meet up with Komarov's daughter, Irina, as earlier planned. John grows suspicious of her shifty behavior, and is proven correct when Alik and his men burst in and tie John and Jack up, while Komarov is taken as a hostage, and Irina confesses to informing on them for the "millions of dollars" to be gained. Jack breaks free of his ties and kills the nearest guards using a Russian gun-knife, allowing the two to kill most of the men. Alik and Irina, with Komarov still their hostage, return in a [[Mil Mi-24]] helicopter and try to kill them, but the two escape a second time.

That night, the two steal a car full of firearms and drive to [[Pripyat]], [[Ukraine]], where the vault with the file is located. However, Komarov, Irina, and Alik have preceded them. In a twist, the file is revealed never to have existed: the drawer with the file supposedly inside is in fact a secret passage to a [[Chernobyl]] vault containing [[euro sign|€]]1 billion worth of [[Uranium-235|weapons-grade uranium]]. Once inside the vault, Komarov kills Alik and calls Chagarin to gloat and to listen as Chagarin is killed by a henchman of Komarov's.

At this point, John and Jack enter the vault, discover Komarov's true plot, and capture him. Irina, with another henchman, comes to her father's aid. As they attempt to escape, Jack follows Komarov, while John goes after Irina, who is escaping on a [[Mil Mi-26]] helicopter. Irina tries to protect her father by firing the helicopter's guns at Jack. John is able to bring the helicopter out of balance by driving a truck out of the hangar section, still shackled by a chain, via the open rear ramp; he is later thrown off into the building. Komarov remarks that Jack will get to watch his father die, prompting Jack to hurl him off the rooftop into the path of the spinning helicopter rotors, killing him. As Jack and John reunite inside the building, Irina tries to avenge her father by ramming the helicopter, now out of ammunition, into the building in a suicide attack. Father and son survive by leaping off the building into a large pool of water, as the helicopter crashes and explodes, killing Irina. In the end, the McClanes return to New York and reunite with Lucy McClane on the tarmac.

==Cast==
* [[Bruce Willis]] as [[John McClane]], an NYPD detective in Russia to find his son, John McClane, Jr.
* [[Jai Courtney]] as [[John McClane#John "Jack" McClane Jr.|John "Jack" McClane, Jr.]], the son of the senior McClane and a CIA operative on a mission in Russia.
* [[Sebastian Koch]] as Yuri Komarov, a powerful Russian terrorist who's a political prisoner and Irina's father.
* [[Yuliya Snigir]] as Irina Komarova, Yuri's daughter
* [[Sergei Kolesnikov (actor)|Sergei Kolesnikov]] as Viktor Chagarin, a corrupt, high-ranking Russian official.
* Radivoje Bukvić as Alik, Chagarin's main enforcer.
* [[Cole Hauser]] as Mike Collins, a CIA operative and Jack's partner.
* [[Mary Elizabeth Winstead]] as [[John McClane#Lucy Gennero-McClane|Lucy McClane]], McClane's oldest child and Jack's elder sister.
* [[Amaury Nolasco]] as Murphy, an NYPD detective and McClane's friend.
* [[Roman Luknár]] as Anton
* [[Ganxsta Zolee]] as MRAP Driver

==Production==

===Pre-production===
Production was formally announced in 2010, with ''[[X-Men Origins: Wolverine]]'' and ''[[The A-Team (film)|The A-Team]]'' writer [[Skip Woods]] confirmed as the film's screenwriter. Noam Murro was originally attached to direct the film but left production to direct the ''[[300 (film)|300]]'' prequel, ''[[300: Rise of an Empire]]''. [[John Moore (director)|John Moore]] was subsequently drafted in to replace him.<ref name="Die Hard 5">{{cite web|url=http://iftn.ie/news/?act1=record&only=1&aid=73&rid=4284212&tpl=archnews&force=1|title=John Moore to Direct Dire Hard 5 |publisher=IFTN|accessdate=2 September 2011}}</ref>

The film was originally titled "''Die Hard 24/7''". The media speculated that the film would be a [[Fictional crossover|crossover]] between the ''[[Die Hard (franchise)|Die Hard]]'' and ''[[24 (TV series)|24]]'' series, with [[Kiefer Sutherland]] to reprise his role as [[Jack Bauer]] alongside [[John McClane]].<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.firstshowing.net/2010/die-hard-247-originally-involved-john-mcclane-jack-bauer/|title=Die Hard 24/7 Originally Involved John McClane & Jack Bauer?|work=firstshowing.net|date=2010-06-09|accessdate=2013-02-14}}</ref> This was never confirmed by the studio, and the film's title was later revealed to be ''A Good Day to Die Hard''—with no further mention of any involvement from the ''24'' series—with a release date of February 14, 2013.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/fox-die-hard-percy-jackson-247435|title=Fox Moves Ahead With New 'Die Hard' and 'Percy Jackson' Films|last=McClintock|first=Pamela|work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|date=2011-10-12|accessdate=2011-10-12}}</ref>

===Casting===
[[Bruce Willis]] returned as [[John McClane]], and has expressed a desire to shoot ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' and a sixth installment in the series before retiring the character.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.moviehole.net/201030351-willis-back-for-two-more-die-hard-movies|title=Willis Back For Two More Die Hard Movies|publisher=MovieHole.com|date=October 20, 2010|accessdate=October 20, 2010}}</ref>

When casting the role of Jack McClane, the studios considered several actors, including [[Liam Hemsworth]] and [[James Badge Dale]],<ref>{{cite web|url=http://deadline.com/2011/11/die-hard-search-for-bruce-williss-son-down-to-four-actors|title=‘Die Hard’ Search For Bruce Willis’ Son Down To Four Actors|work=Deadline Hollywood |date=2011-11-04|accessdate=2011-11-04}}</ref> before ultimately settling on Australian actor [[Jai Courtney]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://insidemovies.ew.com/2012/02/22/die-hard-5-spartacus-jai-courtney/|title='Die Hard 5' casts 'Spartacus' star as John McClane's son|work=[[Entertainment Weekly]]|date=2012-02-22|accessdate=2012-02-22}}</ref> [[Mary Elizabeth Winstead]] also appeared in the film, reprising her role as McClane's daughter Lucy.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://collider.com/die-hard-5-mary-elizabeth-winstead/187381/|title=Mary Elizabeth Winstead to Return as John McClane's Daughter in A Good Day To Die Hard|publisher=[[Collider.com]]|date=2012-08-07|accessdate=2012-08-07}}</ref> However all her scenes were cut from the Extended release.<ref>http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=175700</ref>

[[Sebastian Koch]] played the film's primary antagonist, Yuri Komarov,<ref name="seb+julia">{{cite web|url=http://www.firstshowing.net/2012/a-good-day-to-die-hard-finds-a-couple-of-male-and-female-villains/|title=A Good Day to Die Hard' Finds a Couple of Male and Female Villains|work=firstshowing.net|date=2012-04-04|accessdate=2012-04-04}}</ref> while [[Yuliya Snigir]] and [[Cole Hauser]] featured as secondary characters Irina and Collins.<ref name="seb+julia"/><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.deadline.com/2012/05/cole-hauser-joins-bruce-willis-in-a-good-day-to-die-hard|title=Cole Hauser Joins Bruce Willis In A Good Day To Die Hard|work=[[deadline.com]]|date=2012-05-08|accessdate=2012-05-08}}</ref> The cast was completed by actors [[Amaury Nolasco]] as a friend of McClane,<ref name="nolasco">{{cite news|url=http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118054017.html?cmpid=RSS%7CNews%7CLatestNews|title=Latest in 'Die Hard' series adds two|work=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=2012-05-14|accessdate=2012-05-31|first=Jeff|last=Sneider}}</ref> [[Pasha D. Lychnikoff]] as a taxi driver,<ref name="nolasco"/> and [[Megalyn Echikunwoke]], [[Anne Vyalitsyna]], and [[Ivan Kamaras]] in smaller roles.<ref name="nolasco"/><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.movieweb.com/news/a-good-day-to-die-hard-adds-anne-vyalitsyna|title=A Good Day to Die Hard Adds Anne Vyalitsyna|work=[[MovieWeb]]|date=2012-05-31|accessdate=2012-05-31}}</ref>

===Filming===
Production began in [[Hungary]] in April 2012, with the capital [[Budapest]] standing in for [[Moscow]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.xpatloop.com/news/70120|title=Bruce Willis Film Causes Traffic Restrictions In Budapest|work=[[www.xpatloop.com/]]|date=2012-04-23|accessdate=2012-04-28}}</ref> A military shooting range near [[Hajmáskér]] was used for shooting live ammunition,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.borsonline.hu/20120614_eles_fegyverrel_lottek_bruce_willisek |title=BorsOnline - Sztárhírek - Pletyka - Krimi - Politika - Sport - Celeb - Éles fegyverrel lőttek Bruce Willisék |publisher=Borsonline.hu |date=2012-06-14 |accessdate=2012-07-02}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://index.hu/kultur/cinematrix/hirblog/2012/06/14/die_hardmasker/ |title=Index - Kultúr - Éles lőszert használt Bruce Willis koptere |publisher=Index.hu |date=2012-06-14 |accessdate=2012-07-02}}</ref> while vehicular stunts were shot at the [[Hungaroring]], a [[Formula One]] racing circuit in [[Mogyoród]].<ref name="Hunset">{{cite web|url=http://www.f1hirek.hu/f1/20120508-f1-szalay-balazs-hirtelen-tavozott-a-hungaroring-menedzsmentjebol.html|title=Szalay Balázs hirtelen távozott a Hungaroring menedzsmentjéből|language=Hungarian|trans_title=Balázs Szalay suddenly quits the management of Hungaroring|author=Péter Farkas|work=f1hirek.hu|authorlink=|location=Budapest, Hungary|date=8 May 2012|publisher=Origo Média és Kommunikációs Szolgáltató Zrt.|accessdate=15 May 2012}}</ref>

In July 2012, a fire broke out on the set while shooting an aerial stunt, though no one was injured and shooting resumed after a short delay.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.eonline.com/news/real-life_disaster_action_fire_erupts/328219|title=Real-Life Disaster Action! Fire Erupts on Die Hard 5 Set|work=[[E! Online]]|date=2012-07-06|accessdate=2012-07-06}}</ref>

In creating the film's visual style, Moore wanted the camera work to be almost entirely handheld, using three 4 Perforation [[35 mm film|35mm]] [[Arri]]<ref name="ARRI">{{cite web|url=http://www.arri-rental.com/navigation/meta/about-arri-rental/credits/credits/?tx_arricreditssearch_pi2%5Buid%5D=571|title='ARRI Rental Credits: A Good Day To Die Hard - Die Hard 5 2012 |publisher=arri-rental|accessdate=26 January 2012}}</ref> cameras equipped with long lenses to capture tight close-ups, for Moore explained, "McClane is in a strange world, with little or no initial control over his environment. He's unable to anticipate things as he normally might. He's caught off guard, and we want the camera to mimic that surprise and confusion."<ref name="GMA"/> Moore also chose to create as many of the film's effects on camera as possible, only using visual effects to enhance elements or paint in backgrounds.<ref name="GMA">{{cite web|url=http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/291811/cbb/a-good-day-to-die-hard-brings-the-action-genre-to-the-extreme|title='A Good Day to Die Hard' brings the action genre to the extreme |publisher=gmanetwork.com|accessdate=25 January 2012}}</ref>

===Post-production===
A specially censored version was prepared for theatrical release in the United Kingdom, which was cut for language and violence in order to attain a 12A at the request of the distributors.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/good-day-die-hard-2013-5 |title="A Good Day To Die Hard" BBFC database entry.}}</ref> The U.S. version is rated R and is uncut. The film's audio was mixed in [[Dolby Atmos]] surround sound.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/a-good-day-die-hard-407904|title='A Good Day to Die Hard' to Get Dolby Atmos Mix|work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|date=3 January 2013|accessdate=10 January 2013}}</ref> In February 2013, director Moore began work on a director's cut, which was later released on Blu-ray.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1638 |title=John Moore Talks A Good Day To Die Hard - Empire Magazine}}</ref> {{Clear}}

==Soundtrack==
{{Infobox album 
| Name = A Good Day to Die Hard: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack
| Type = Soundtrack
| Artist = [[Marco Beltrami]]
| Cover =
| Released = {{start date|2013|02|19}}
| Recorded =
| Genre = [[Film score]]
| Length =
| Label = Sony Classical
| Producer = [[Marco Beltrami]]
| Misc =
}}
[[Marco Beltrami]], who had composed the soundtrack for the previous film, ''[[Live Free or Die Hard]]'', returned to score ''A Good Day to Die Hard''. Beltrami again incorporates [[Michael Kamen]]'s material from the first three films into his score. Beltrami only had six weeks in which to write the music, and new scenes were still being shot as the music was being recorded. In the end, he wrote around 120 minutes of music, with 80 of those minutes making it into the final film.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/die_hard5.html|title=Filmtracks: A Good Day to Die Hard (Marco Beltrami)|work=filmtracks.com}}</ref> The soundtrack album was released on February 14, 2013 digitally and in retailers by [[Sony Classical]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://filmmusicreporter.com/2012/12/22/sony-classical-to-release-marco-beltramis-a-good-day-to-die-hard-score/|title=Sony Classical to Release Marco Beltrami’s ‘A Good Day to Die Hard’ Score|work=FILM MUSIC REPORTER|date=22 December 2012|accessdate=10 January 2013}}</ref> Five orchestrators were involved: Pete Anthony, Jon Kull, Dana Niu, Rossana Galante, Andrew Kinny. The orchestra was conducted by Pete Anthony.

The score was programmed by Buck Sanders, with additional music composed by Marcus Trumpp and Brandon Roberts.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://filmmusicreporter.com/2013/01/18/a-good-day-to-die-hard-soundtrack-details/|title=A Good Day to Die Hard’ Soundtrack Details|work=filmmusicreporter|date=18 January 2013|accessdate=17 February 2013}}</ref>

{{Track listing
| collapsed =
| all_music = [[Marco Beltrami]]
| title1 = Yuri Says, “привет”
| length1 = 2:19
| title2 = Getting Yuri to the Van
| length2 = 2:14
| title3 = Jack Makes the Call
| length3 = 2:53
| title4 = Everyone to the Courthouse
| length4 = 3:09
| title5 = Court Adjourned
| length5 = 2:19
| title6 = Truckzilla (Act 1)
| length6 = 3:38
| title7 = Yippie Kay Yay, Mother Russia!
| length7 = 1:54
| title8 = Truckzilla (Act 2)
| length8 = 2:00
| title9 = Father & Son
| length9 = 1:24
| title10 = To the Safe House
| length10 = 1:51
| title11 = Regroup
| length11 = 2:30
| title12 = Leaving the Safe House
| length12 = 1:59
| title13 = Getting to the Dance Floor
| length13 = 1:34
| title14 = Too Many Kolbasas on the Dance Floor
| length14 = 3:53
| title15 = What's So Funny?
| length15 = 2:30
| title16 = McClanes Get the Bird
| length16 = 3:00
| title17 = Scumbags
| length17 = 2:05
| title18 = Entering Chernobyl
| length18 = 4:07
| title19 = Into the Vault
| length19 = 2:17
| title20 = Rubbed Out at the Spa
| length20 = 2:07
| title21 = Sunshine Shootout
| length21 = 1:37
| title22 = Get to the Choppa!
| length22 = 2:59
| title23 = Chopper Takedown
| length23 = 3:26
| title24 = It's Hard to Kill a McClane
| length24 = 2:59
| title25 = Triple Vodka Rhapsody
| length25 = 1:55
| title26 = McClane's Brain
| length26 = 2:00
}}

==Release==
[[File:A Good Day to Die Hard - TruSpeed Porsche 997 GT3 Cup 1500x1000.jpg|thumb|#46 TruSpeed [[Porsche 911 GT3#997 GT3 Cup|Porsche GT3]] during a race of the [[2012 Porsche Supercup season|2012 Supercup]] (that ran as a support to the [[2012 United States Grand Prix|2012 USGP]]) promoting the release date on February 14, 2013.]]
On January 31, 2013, [[20th Century Fox]] held a special tribute to the 25th anniversary of the ''Die Hard'' series by unveiling a mural of a scene from ''[[Die Hard]]'' (1988) on Sound Stage 8 of the Fox Lot. Afterward, the premiere screening of ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' was shown.<ref name="premiere"/> Two additional premieres were held in Europe leading up to the film's commercial release: one in [[Berlin]], [[Germany]] on February 4 and the second in [[London]], [[England]] on February 7.<ref>{{cite news|author=|url=https://movies.yahoo.com/photos/a-good-day-to-die-hard-german-premiere-1360084694-slideshow/|title='A Good Day to Die Hard' German Premiere|work=[[Yahoo]]|publisher=movies.yahoo.com|date=February 5, 2013|accessdate=February 15, 2013}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|author=|url=http://www.seattlepi.com/entertainment/slideshow/A-Good-Day-to-Die-Hard-London-premiere-56778.php|title='A Good Day to Die Hard' London premiere|work=''SeattlePI.com''|publisher=Hearst Communications Inc.|date=|accessdate=February 15, 2013}}</ref> ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' was commercially released first in [[Indonesia]] on February 6, 2013, and then opened in certain [[East Asia|East]] and [[Southeast Asia]]n territories on February 7.

In the United States and Canada, the film was distributed to 2,328 theaters for night showings on February 13.<ref name="hr">{{cite news|author=Gregg Kilday|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/a-good-day-die-hard-421639|title=Box Office Report: 'Die Hard' Collects $840,000 at Midnight Screenings|work=The Hollywood Reporter|publisher=hollywoodreporter.com|date=February 14, 2013|accessdate=February 15, 2013}}</ref> Select theaters also held a one-time special marathon of all ''Die Hard'' films to lead up to ''A Good Day to Die Hard'''s nationwide release,<ref>{{cite news|author=|url=http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=98909|title=Five-Film ''Die Hard'' Marathon Coming to Theaters February 13|work=''ComingSoon.net''|publisher=CraveOnline|date=January 15, 2013|accessdate=February 15, 2013}}</ref> with Bruce Willis making a personal appearance at one of these marathons in [[New York City]] to thank fans.<ref>{{cite news|author=Ken Lombardi|url=http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-207_162-57569407/bruce-willis-has-a-good-day-to-die-hard/|title=Bruce Willis has "A Good Day to Die Hard"|work=[[CBS News]]|publisher=cbsnews.com|date=February 14, 2013|accessdate=February 15, 2013}}</ref> The film then expanded to a total of 3,553 theaters, including [[IMAX]] theaters, on February 14.<ref name="hr"/>

==Reception==
Unlike previous films in the series, ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' was panned by critics. Based on 217 reviews collected by [[Rotten Tomatoes]], the film received a 14% approval rating, with an [[weighted mean|average]] score of 3.9/10. The site's critical consensus reads, "''A Good Day to Die Hard'' is the weakest entry in a storied franchise, and not even Bruce Willis' smirking demeanor can enliven a cliched, uninspired script."<ref name=rottentomatoes/> By comparison, [[Metacritic]] gave the film a score of 28 out of 100, based on 40 critics, indicating "generally unfavorable" reaction.<ref name=metacritic/> On both websites, the film ranked lowest among the ''Die Hard'' films.

[[A. O. Scott]] of ''[[The New York Times]]'' described ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' as "a handful of extended set pieces—each more elaborate and therefore somehow less exciting than the last—linked by a simple-minded plot and a handful of half-clever lines." Though complimenting the special effects, he criticizes the direction of John Moore, the lack of style, and writes that "everything that made the first ''Die Hard'' memorable—the nuances of character, the political subtext, the cowboy wit—has been dumbed down or scrubbed away entirely."<ref>{{cite news |author=A.O. Scott |authorlink=A.O. Scott |url=https://movies.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/movies/a-good-day-to-die-hard-with-bruce-willis.html |title=When Action Is the Family Business|work=[[The New York Times]] |date=February 13, 2013|accessdate=February 13, 2013}}</ref> [[Todd McCarthy]] of ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' expressed similar sentiments, particularly of the direction, for which he says that Moore "has directed these sequences in a way that makes the incidents look so far-fetched and essentially unsurvivable that you can only laugh".<ref>{{cite news|author=[[Todd McCarthy]]|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie/a-good-day-die-hard/review/421267|title=A Good Day to Die Hard: Film Review |work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]] |date=February 13, 2013|accessdate=February 13, 2013}}</ref> Kenneth Turan of the ''[[Los Angeles Times]]'' gave the film a 2/5 and remarked that it lacked "inspiration", and that the onscreen rivalry of Willis and Courtney was "more irritant than enticement."<ref>{{cite news|author=Kenneth Turan |url=http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-die-hard-review20130214,0,7430849.story|title=Movie Review: 'A Good Day to Die Hard' an uninspired effort |work=[[Los Angeles Times]] |date=February 13, 2013|accessdate=February 13, 2013}}</ref> [[Richard Roeper]], standing in for [[Roger Ebert]] on Ebert's website, rated the film one and a half stars out of four, criticizing the implausibility of the action sequences, as well as the film's lack of sufficient characterization for McClane and the villains as compared to the other films in the series. He says that "McClane has been stripped of any real traces of an actual three-dimensional character," and that the film "never giv[es] us a chance to get the least bit involved with any of these characters."<ref>{{cite news|author=Richard Roeper |authorlink=Richard Roeper |url=http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130212/REVIEWS/130219989|title=A GOOD DAY TO DIE HARD (R) |publisher=rogerebert.suntimes.com|date=February 14, 2013|accessdate=February 14, 2013}}</ref>

Among the rare positive reviews, [[Robbie Collin]] for [[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]] remarked that "Yet even though the ride finally stalls, ''A Good Day To Die Hard'' has been thrustingly outrageous enough in its earlier moments to coast to the finish line on momentum.".<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/filmreviews/9868781/Bruce-Willis-in-A-Good-Day-to-Die-Hard-review.html|title=Bruce Willis in A Good Day to Die Hard, review|author=Robbie Collin|date=14 February 2013|work=Telegraph.co.uk|location=London}}</ref> [[Christopher Tookey|Chris Tookey]] of the [[Daily Mail]] tabloid paper described the film as "...as stupid in its way as ''[[The Expendables (2010 film)|The Expendables 1]]'' and ''[[Taken 2]]'', and nowhere near the quality of the first three ''Die Hard''s. But if you approach it as I did, in a mood for preposterous action and massive explosions, it does deliver escapist entertainment and it’s mercifully shorter than ''Die Hard 4''. In a week as bad as this in the cinema, it is the only new movie I would have paid to see." Tookey then gave the final verdict as being "Entertaining, but dumb." along with a 3/5 star rating.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2278953/A-Good-Day-Die-Hard-review-New-Bruce-Willis-film-explosive-escape-reality.html|title=A Good Day to Die Hard review: New Bruce Willis film is an explosive escape from reality - Daily Mail Online|work=Mail Online | location=London|date=February 15, 2013}}</ref> [[Daniel M. Kimmel]], writing for the ''New England Movies Weekly'', found the film to be better than ''Live Free or Die Hard'' and states that the car chase scene "is well worth the price of admission." With a 3.5/5 rating, Kimmel summed up his review saying, "it's probably a good day to end the series at last, but it's an action-packed and entertaining finale."<ref>{{cite news |author=Daniel M. Kimmel |authorlink=Daniel M. Kimmel |url=http://northshoremovies.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/review-a-good-day-to-die-hard/|title=Review – A Good Day To Die Hard |publisher=New England Movies Weekly |date=February 14, 2013|accessdate=February 14, 2013}}</ref> Rick Groen of ''[[The Globe and Mail]]'' criticized the action scenes as being "messy", but concluded his review saying that the film "continues the franchise without undue embarrassment."<ref>{{cite news|author=Rick Groen |url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/film/film-reviews/a-good-day-to-die-hard-more-messy-than-hard-but-not-dead-yet/article8616894/ |title=A Good Day to Die Hard: More messy than hard, but not dead yet |work=[[The Globe and Mail]] |date=February 14, 2013|accessdate=February 14, 2013 |location=Toronto}}</ref> Peter Howell of ''[[The Toronto Star]]'' remarked that Willis and Courtney made a strong estranged family duo and that the film had a nice drinking game routine going for it with how many times McClane exclaims "I'm on vacation!" during the running time.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/movies/2013/02/14/a_good_day_to_die_hard_review_feel_the_love.html|title=A Good Day to Die Hard review: Feel the love|date=14 February 2013|work=thestar.com|location=Toronto}}</ref>

===Box office===
''A Good Day to Die Hard'' grossed $67,349,198 in North America and $237,304,984 in other territories for a worldwide total of $304,654,182, roughly three times its $92 million budget.

In North America, ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' grossed an estimated $840,000 from its night showings at 2,328 locations on Wednesday, February 13, 2013.<ref name="hr"/> The next day, at an additional 1,225 locations, the film managed to accumulate $8,239,116, opening at #2 behind ''[[Safe Haven (film)|Safe Haven]]''.<ref name="BOM"/> However, for the whole 4-day [[Presidents' Day]] weekend, ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' opened in first place with $28,640,657, bringing its total at that point to $36,879,773.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/?yr=2013&wknd=07a&p=.htm|title=February 15-18, 2013|publisher=[[Box Office Mojo]]|date=February 19, 2013|accessdate=February 24, 2013}}</ref>

Overseas, ''A Good Day to Die Hard'' grossed $10,860,000 in its first weekend. Opening in seven Asian markets at 1,182 locations a week before North America's release (February 6–7) to take advantage of the [[Chinese New Year]] holiday, the majority of the film's gross came from [[South Korea]], with the film also setting a Fox record in [[Indonesia]] and a series record in [[Hong Kong]].<ref>{{cite news|author=Rick Groen|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/foreign-box-office-django-unchained-420087|title=Foreign Box Office: 'Django Unchained' Remains No. 1, But 'Die Hard' Steals Weekend|work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|publisher=hollywoodreporter.com|date=February 10, 2013|accessdate=February 14, 2013}}</ref>

===Home media===
''A Good Day to Die Hard'' was released on [[DVD]] and [[Blu-ray Disc|Blu-ray]] on June 4, 2013.<ref>{{cite news|last=|first=|title=A Good Day to Die Hard Blu-ray Blu-ray + DVD + Digital Copy|url=http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/A-Good-Day-to-Die-Hard-Blu-ray/50803/|date=March 21, 2013}}</ref> There is an extended cut that is only available on the Blu-ray version. It features a longer car chase through Moscow and some other slightly extended scenes. It also completely removes Lucy from the film.

==References==
{{reflist|30em}}

==External links==
* {{Official website|http://www.diehardmovie.com}}
* {{IMDb title|1606378}}
* {{mojo title|diehard5}}
* {{rotten-tomatoes|a_good_day_to_die_hard}}
* {{metacritic film|a-good-day-to-die-hard}}

{{Die Hard}}
{{John Moore}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Good Day To Die Hard}}
[[Category:2013 films]]
[[Category:2010s action thriller films]]
[[Category:2010s sequel films]]
[[Category:20th Century Fox films]]
[[Category:American action thriller films]]
[[Category:American films]]
[[Category:American sequel films]]
[[Category:Central Intelligence Agency in fiction]]
[[Category:Die Hard (film series)]]
[[Category:Dolby Atmos films]]
[[Category:English-language films]]
[[Category:Film scores by Marco Beltrami]]
[[Category:Films about nuclear war and weapons]]
[[Category:Films about terrorism]]
[[Category:Films directed by John Moore]]
[[Category:Films set in Chernobyl (city)]]
[[Category:Films set in Moscow]]
[[Category:Films set in New York City]]
[[Category:Films set in Ukraine]]
[[Category:Films set in Washington, D.C.]]
[[Category:Films shot in Budapest]]
[[Category:IMAX films]]
[[Category:Russian-language films]]
[[Category:TSG Entertainment films]]

The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones

2016-04-26T02:25:28Z

Die-yng: /* Critical response */ It makes no sense to say the film received mixed reviews, since they are overwhelmingly negative, in the spirit of peace I changed it to "negative to mixed reviews."

{{Use mdy dates|date=February 2016}}
{{Infobox film
| name = The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones
| image = The Mortal Instruments - City of Bones Poster.jpg
| image_size = 220px
| alt = At the front on the right is a girl, with 4 more people behind her, each further away. A rune or smybol can be seen in clouds against the yellow sky.
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = [[Harald Zwart]]
| producer = {{Plainlist|
* [[Don Carmody]]
* Robert Kulzer
}}
| screenplay = Jessica Postigo
| based on = {{Based on|''[[City of Bones (Mortal Instruments)|City of Bones]]''|[[Cassandra Clare]]}}
| starring = {{Plainlist|
* [[Lily Collins]]
* [[Jamie Campbell Bower]]
* [[Robert Sheehan]]
* [[Kevin Zegers]]
* [[Lena Headey]]
* [[Kevin Durand]]
* [[Aidan Turner]]
* [[Jemima West]]
* [[Godfrey Gao]]
* [[C. C. H. Pounder]]
* [[Jared Harris]]
* [[Jonathan Rhys Meyers]] 
}}
| music = [[Atli Örvarsson]]
| cinematography = [[Geir Hartly Andreassen]]
| editing = Joel Negron
| studio = {{Plainlist|
* [[Constantin Film|Constantin Film Produktion GmbH]]
* [[Don Carmody|Don Carmody Productions]]<ref name="filmportalde">{{cite web|url= http://www.filmportal.de/en/movie/the-mortal-instruments-chroniken-der-unterwelt_| work=Filmportal.de|title=Chroniken der Unterwelt - City of Bones|accessdate=May 7, 2014 | language=German, English|archivedate=September 19, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130919183208/http://www.filmportal.de/en/movie/the-mortal-instruments-chroniken-der-unterwelt_}}</ref>
}}
| distributor = {{Plainlist|
* [[Screen Gems]] {{small|(US)}}
* [[Entertainment One]] {{small|(CA/UK)}}
}}
| released = {{Film date|2013|08|21}}
| runtime = 130 minutes<ref name="bbfc">{{cite web|date= August 1, 2013|url=http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/mortal-instruments-city-bones-film| title=''THE MORTAL INSTRUMENTS - CITY OF BONES'' (12A)|work=[[British Board of Film Classification]]|accessdate=August 1, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131017073143/http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/mortal-instruments-city-bones-film|archivedate=October 17, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref>
| country = {{Plainlist|
* Canada
* Germany<ref name="filmportalde" />
}}
| language = English
| budget = $60 million<ref>{{cite journal|url=http://variety.com/2012/film/news/cannes-buyers-bag-prime-pics-1118054658/|title=Cannes buyers bag prime pics| magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=May 26, 2012|first1=John|last1=Hopewell|first2=Diana|last2=Lodderhose| accessdate=August 24, 2013|deadurl=no|archivedate=May 10, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130510003722/http://variety.com/2012/film/news/cannes-buyers-bag-prime-pics-1118054658/}}</ref><ref name="mojo" /><ref name="latimes-dissapoints" />
| gross = $90.6 million<ref name="mojo" /><ref name="the-numbers" />
}}
'''''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones''''' is a 2013 Canadian-German [[Action film|action]]-[[Adventure film|adventure]] [[science fantasy]] film based on the [[City of Bones (Mortal Instruments)|first book]] of ''[[The Mortal Instruments]]'' series by [[Cassandra Clare]]. The story takes place in an urban and contemporary [[New York City]]. Directed by [[Harald Zwart]], the film stars an international cast, including [[Lily Collins]], [[Jamie Campbell Bower]], [[Robert Sheehan]], [[Kevin Zegers]], [[Jemima West]], [[Godfrey Gao]], [[Lena Headey]], [[Jonathan Rhys Meyers]], [[Aidan Turner]], [[Kevin Durand]], and [[Jared Harris]]. It was released in theaters on August 21, 2013 by [[Screen Gems]] in the United States and [[Entertainment One]] in the United Kingdom. ''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones'' earned $90,565,421<ref name="mojo" /><ref name="the-numbers" /> on a $60 million budget.<ref>{{cite journal|url=http://variety.com/2012/film/news/cannes-buyers-bag-prime-pics-1118054658/|title=Cannes buyers bag prime pics| magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=May 26, 2012|first1=John|last1=Hopewell|first2=Diana|last2=Lodderhose| accessdate=August 24, 2013|deadurl=no|archivedate=May 10, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130510003722/http://variety.com/2012/film/news/cannes-buyers-bag-prime-pics-1118054658/}}</ref><ref name="mojo" /><ref name="latimes-dissapoints" />''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones'' was released on DVD and Blu-ray on December 3, 2013 by [[Sony Pictures Home Entertainment]].

==Plot==
[[New York City]] teenager [[Clary Fray]] begins seeing a strange symbol, worrying her mother [[Jocelyn Fray]] and her mother's friend [[City of Bones (Mortal Instruments)#Characters|Luke Garroway]]. Later, at a nightclub with her friend, [[Simon Lewis (The Mortal Instruments)|Simon Lewis]], Clary is the only person who sees [[List of The Mortal Instruments characters#Jace Herondale|Jace Wayland]] killing a man. Meanwhile, Jocelyn is abducted by two men, Emil Pangborn and Samuel Blackwell, but she is able to call Clary and warn her about someone named Valentine. Jocelyn drinks a potion putting her in a comatose state. Returning home, Clary finds her mother missing and is then attacked by a demon. Jace appears and kills it. Jace explains that he and her mother Jocelyn are both Shadowhunters (also called Nephilim), half human half angel warriors that slay demons and rule over the downworlders. Clary has inherited her powers, including the ability to use [[runes]].

Madame Dorothea, the Fray's neighbor and a witch, deduces that Pangborn and Blackwell seek the Mortal Cup, one of the three Mortal Instruments given to the first Shadowhunter by the Angel Raziel. It allows normal humans to become half-Angel Shadowhunters. Simon, now able to see Jace, arrives and they go to Luke's bookstore. Pangborn and Blackwell are interrogating Luke there, who claims he cares nothing for Jocelyn and only wants the Mortal Cup. The trio escapes to the Shadowhunters' hideout, the Institute, where Clary and Simon meet two other Shadowhunters [[Alec Lightwood|Alec]] and [[Isabelle Lightwood]], and their leader, [[City of Bones (Mortal Instruments)#Characters|Hodge Starkweather]]. He reveals that [[List of The Mortal Instruments characters#Valentine Morgenstern|Valentine Morgenstern]], an ex-Shadowhunter who betrayed the Nephilim, now seeks the Mortal Cup to control both Shadowhunters and demons.

Hodge instructs Jace to take Clary to the City of Bones so the Silent Brothers can probe Clary's mind for the Mortal Cup's location. The Brothers uncover a connection to [[Magnus Bane]], the High Warlock of Brooklyn. Bane says Jocelyn had him block the Shadowhunter world from Clary's mind. Vampires then kidnap Simon from Magnus' party for downworlders. Clary, Jace, Alec, and Isabelle trail them to their hideout and rescue him but are outnumbered. Werewolves (that share a truce with the Shadowhunters) intervene and save them. These are led by Luke.

At the Institute, Clary shares a romantic evening with Jace, ending in a kiss. When Simon confronts Clary about it, she downplays the incident, angering Jace. Simon confesses to Clary that he is in love with her, leaving her feeling guilty because she does not reciprocate his feelings.

Clary realizes the Mortal Cup is hidden inside one of Madame Dorothea's tarot cards that were painted by her mother. The group goes to Dorothea's apartment but she has been replaced by a demon sent to steal the Cup. Simon and Jace kill it, but Alec is critically wounded. Clary retrieves the Mortal Cup and they return to the institute.

Clary gives the Mortal Cup to Hodge who betrays them by summoning Valentine Morgenstern and giving him the cup. Valentine reveals he is Clary's father and wants her to join him. She escapes through a portal that transports her to Luke's bookstore. Luke, revealed to be a werewolf, confirms that Valentine is her father, and says Clary had an older brother named Jonathan who was killed. Luke and his werewolf pack return to the Institute with Clary to fight Valentine, who has summoned an army of demons through a portal he created. Simon and Isabelle close the portal with help from a repentant Hodge, who sacrifices himself. Meanwhile, Magnus Bane arrives and heals Alec.

Clary and Jace fight Valentine, who claims both are his children. They refuse to join him and, following a battle, Clary pushes him through the portal after giving him a fake Mortal Cup. The portal is destroyed, and Jocelyn is rescued, but she remains in a coma at the hospital. Clary tells Simon that someday someone will love him. Clary heads back home and uses her new-found powers to repair the apartment. Jace appears on his motorcycle, confessing he needs her and wants her to return to the Institute. Realizing that she belongs in the Shadowhunter world, she goes with him and they ride into the distance.

==Cast==
{| style="float: right; border: 1px solid #BBB; margin: .46em 0 0 .2em;"
|-
| colspan="3" valign="top" | [[File:Lily Collins, Jamie Campbell Bower, 2013 WonderCon.jpg|304px|Lily Collins and Jamie Campbell Bower]]
|-
| [[File:Robert Sheehan by Gage Skidmore.jpg|96px|Robert Sheehan]] || [[File:Kevin Zegers by Gage Skidmore.jpg|100px|Kevin Zegers]] || [[File:Godfrey Gao by Gage Skidmore.jpg|100px|Godfrey Gao]]
|-style="font-size: 86%;"
| colspan=3 | Lily Collins, Jamie Campbell Bower, Robert Sheehan, Kevin Zegers and Godfrey Gao promoting the film.
|}

* [[Lily Collins]] as [[Clary Fray]]
* [[Jamie Campbell Bower]] as [[List of The Mortal Instruments characters#Jace Herondale|Jace Wayland]]
* [[Robert Sheehan]] as [[Simon Lewis (The Mortal Instruments)|Simon Lewis]]
* [[Kevin Zegers]] as [[Alec Lightwood]]
* [[Lena Headey]] as [[Jocelyn Fray]]
* [[Aidan Turner]] as [[City of Bones (Mortal Instruments)#Characters|Luke Garroway]]
* [[Kevin Durand]] as Emil Pangborn
* [[Jemima West]] as [[Isabelle Lightwood]]
* [[Godfrey Gao]] as [[Magnus Bane]]
* [[C. C. H. Pounder]] as Madame Dorothea
* [[Jared Harris]] as [[City of Bones (Mortal Instruments)#Characters|Hodge Starkweather]]
* [[Jonathan Rhys Meyers]] as [[List of The Mortal Instruments characters#Valentine Morgenstern|Valentine Morgenstern]]
* Chris Ratz as Eric
* [[Robert Maillet]] as Samuel Blackwell
* [[Stephen R. Hart]] as Brother Jeremiah
* [[Elyas M'Barek]] as Raphael Santiago
* [[Chad Connell]] as Lambert
* Harry Van Gorkum as Alaric/Werewolf

==Production==
===Pre-production===
[[File:Harald Zwart, 2013 San Diego Comic-Con International (crop).jpg|thumb|200px|Director Harald Zwart at the 2013 [[San Diego Comic-Con International]] promoting the film.]]
While shopping the film prospect around, author [[Cassandra Clare]] had difficulty finding a studio interested in making a film with a female in the lead role. Studios asked her to switch the lead to a male character, which she refused.<ref>{{cite web|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones Interview|url=http://emertainmentmonthly.com/2013/08/02/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-interview|publisher=[[Emertainment Monthly]]|accessdate=August 6, 2013|date=August 2, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130805234128/http://emertainmentmonthly.com/2013/08/02/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-interview|archivedate=August 5, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref>

On December 9, 2010, it was announced that [[Lily Collins]] had been cast in the role of [[Clary Fray]].<ref>{{cite web|title=For Young Thesps, It's All About Locking Roles Before Holidays|url= http://www.deadline.com/2010/12/for-young-thesps-its-all-about-locking-roles-before-holidays|publisher=Deadline|accessdate=August 3, 2013|date=December 9, 2010|archivedate=September 19, 2013|deadurl=no |archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130919135602/http://www.deadline.com/2010/12/for-young-thesps-its-all-about-locking-roles-before-holidays}}</ref>

[[Alex Pettyfer]] was originally offered the role of [[List of The Mortal Instruments characters#Jace Herondale|Jace Wayland]], but turned it down.<ref>{{cite web|date=January 28, 2011|url=http://www.vulture.com/2011/01/alex_pettyfer.html|title=Alex Pettyfer Ditches One Young-Adult Movie Franchise for Another|publisher=Vulture.com|first=Claude|last=Brodesser-Akner |accessdate=April 4, 2014|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131127054129/http://www.vulture.com/2011/01/alex_pettyfer.html|archivedate=November 27, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref> [[Alexander Ludwig]],<ref>{{Cite tweet |user=alexanderludwig |author=[[Alexander Ludwig]] |number=83605868108713984 |date=June 22, 2011 |title=@IAmMockingjay no, I was in discussions with the studio about the movie though, and I'm a huge fan of @lilycollins, she's going to rock it! |accessdate=December 1, 2015}}</ref> [[Ed Speleers]] and Leebo Freeman [[screentest|tested]] for the role<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/mortal-instruments-begins-chase-its-jace-27457|title=‘The Mortal Instruments’ Begins Chase for its Jace|publisher=[[The Wrap]]|date=May 16, 2011|first=Joshua|last=Weinstein|accessdate=April 4, 2014|archivedate=March 2, 2012|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20120302124131/http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/mortal-instruments-begins-chase-its-jace-27457|deadurl=no}}</ref> but it went to [[Jamie Campbell Bower]]. [[Xavier Samuel]],<ref>{{cite web|accessdate=September 14, 2013|url=http://hollywoodcrush.mtv.com/2011/06/28/10-most-anticipated-adaptation-casting-announcements/|title=Book-To-Movie Adaptations: Our 10 Most Anticipated Casting Announcements|publisher=MTV|first=Amy|last=Wilkinson|date=June 28, 2011|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20120308192954/http://hollywoodcrush.mtv.com/2011/06/28/10-most-anticipated-adaptation-casting-announcements/|archivedate=March 8, 2012|deadurl=no}}</ref> [[Nico Tortorella]],<ref>{{cite web|url=http://movieline.com/2011/03/01/nico-tortorella-on-scream-4-set-troubles-and-learning-to-love-joel-schumacher/2/|title=Nico Tortorella On Scream 4 Set Troubles and Learning to Love Joel Schumacher|publisher=[[Movieline]]|first=Jen|last=Yamato|date=March 1, 2011|accessdate=September 14, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140525050314/http://movieline.com/2011/03/01/nico-tortorella-on-scream-4-set-troubles-and-learning-to-love-joel-schumacher/2/|deadurl=no|archivedate=May 25, 2014}}</ref> [[Max Irons]],<ref name="Influx"/> and [[Douglas Booth]]<ref name="Influx">{{cite web|publisher=[[Influx Magazine]]|url=http://influxmagazine.com/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-article/|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones (Article)|first=Casey|last=Ng|accessdate=September 14, 2013}}</ref> were also in consideration.

The film is a co-production of the Germany company Constantin Film Produktion GmbH and Canadian company Don Carmody Productions and a co-production with Unique Features.<ref name=filmportalde/>

===Filming===
[[Principal photography]] took place between August 20 – November 7, 2012 on location in [[Toronto]] and [[Hamilton, Ontario|Hamilton]], [[Ontario]], and [[New York City]].<ref>{{cite web|url= http://www.onlocationvacations.com/2012/08/20/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-begins-filming-in-toronto|title='The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones' begins filming in Toronto|publisher=On Location Vacations|accessdate=September 17, 2012|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20121209040715/http://www.onlocationvacations.com/2012/08/20/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-begins-filming-in-toronto|archivedate=December 9, 2012|deadurl=no|date=August 20, 2012}}</ref>

==Music== 
===Soundtrack===
{{Infobox album
| Name = The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack)
| Type = soundtrack
| Artist = Various artists
| Cover =
| Alt =
| Released = August 20, 2013
| Recorded = 2013
| Genre = [[Pop music|Pop]], [[Electronic dance music|EDM]], [[indie pop]], [[alternative rock]]
| Length = 49:53
| Label = [[Republic Records|Republic]]
| Producer =
| Last album =
| This album =
| Next album =
| Misc = {{Singles
| Name = The Mortal Instruments - City of Bones (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack)
| Type = soundtrack
| Single 1 = When the Darkness Comes
| Single 1 date = July 10, 2013
| Single 2 = [[Almost is Never Enough]]<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/19/ariana-grande-almost-is-never-enough_n_3780375.html|title=Ariana Grande's 'Almost Is Never Enough' Video Features Nathan Sykes|date=August 19, 2013}}</ref>
| Single 2 date = August 19, 2013
}}
}}
''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack)'' was released by [[Republic Records]] in stores and digital retailers on August 20, 2013.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/mortal-instruments-city-bones/id674865584|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack)|website=iTunes|accessdate=July 22, 2013|deadurl=no|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130820070413/https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/mortal-instruments-city-bones/id674865584|archivedate=August 20, 2013}}</ref> It is headlined by [[Demi Lovato]], [[Zedd (musician)|Zedd]], [[Colbie Caillat]], [[AFI (band)|AFI]] remixed by LA Riots, and [[Jessie J]] among others. The soundtrack is a collaboration between trance DJs Myon & Shane 54 with Seven Lions, as well as a song by Bryan Ellis, produced by [[Brian West (musician)|Brian West]]. Some songs, including Lovato's "Heart by Heart" and Caillat's "When the Darkness Comes", were recorded specifically for ''City of Bones''. Zedd "scored for a key scene in the film". Two tracks had been previously released, including "When the Darkness Comes" by Colbie Caillat (released a promotional countdown single on [[iTunes]] on July 10).<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.josepvinaixa.com/blog/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-soundtrack-ariana-preview/|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack)|website=Ultimate Music|deadurl=no| archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130821004347/http://www.josepvinaixa.com/blog/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-soundtrack-itunes|archivedate=August 21, 2013|accessdate=February 10, 2015}}</ref> Others are new songs.

The album peaked at #32 on the US ''Billboard'' 200.<ref>{{cite web|title=Atli Örvarsson - Chart History|url=http://www.billboard.com/artist/5679869/atli-orvarsson/chart|work=[[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|accessdate=April 4, 2014|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140525053450/http://www.billboard.com/artist/5679869/atli-orvarsson/chart|archivedate=May 25, 2014|deadurl=no}}</ref> "Almost is Never Enough", performed by [[Ariana Grande]] and [[The Wanted]]'s [[Nathan Sykes]], debuted on the [[Billboard Hot 100|''Billboard'' Hot 100]] at number 84.

{{Track listing
| headline =
| music_credits = yes
| total_length =49:53
| title1 = Into the Lair
| music1 = [[Zedd (musician)|Zedd]]
| length1 = 1:44
| title2 = [[Almost is Never Enough]]
| note2 = Soundtrack version
| music2 = [[Ariana Grande]] & [[Nathan Sykes (singer)|Nathan Sykes]]
| length2 = 3:30
| title3 = 17 Crimes
| note3 = LA Riots remix
| music3 = [[AFI (band)|AFI]]
| length3 = 4:43
| title4 = [[Heart by Heart]]
| music4 = [[Demi Lovato]]
| length4 = 3:43
| title5 = Bring Me Home
| music5 = [[Youngblood Hawke (band)|Youngblood Hawke]]
| length5 = 3:02
| title6 = When the Darkness Comes
| music6 = [[Colbie Caillat]]
| length6 = 4:16
| title7 = Strangers
| note7 = featuring [[Tove Lo]]
| music7 = [[Seven Lions]], Myon & Shane 54
| length7 = 6:02
| title8 = Magnetic
| music8 = [[Jessie J]]
| length8 = 3:55
| title9 = Bear
| music9 = [[Pacific Air]]
| length9 = 3:36
| title10 = All About Us
| note10 = featuring [[Owl City]]
| music10 = [[He is We]]
| length10 = 3:26
| title11 = Calling from Above
| note11 = Edit
| music11 = [[Bassnectar]]
| length11 = 1:57
| title12 = Start a Riot
| music12 = Jetta
| length12 = 4:14
| title13 = Strange Days
| music13 = Bryan Ellis
| length13 = 5:45
}}
Beth Crowley had also written a song inspired by the movie called "Warrior". "All I Need" by [[Radiohead]] was the song used in the trailer for the film.

===Score===
{{Infobox album
| Name = The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones (Original Motion Picture Score)
| Type = soundtrack
| Artist = [[Atli Örvarsson]]
| Cover =
| Alt =
| Released = August 20, 2013
| Recorded = 2013
| Genre = [[Soundtrack]]
| Length = 1:03:42
| Label = [[Milan Records]]
| Producer =
}}

The official score was composed by [[Atli Örvarsson]], and was released on August 20, 2013 for physical purchase and digital download.

{{Track listing
| headline =
| total_length =1:03:42
| title1 = Clary's Theme
| length1 = 3:22
| title2 = City of Bones
| length2 = 3:40
| title3 = Your Secret is Safe
| length3 = 2:52
| title4 = The Clave's Curse
| length4 = 3:18
| title5 = Pretty Far From Brooklyn
| length5 = 2:32
| title6 = Close the Dome
| length6 = 2:54
| title7 = The Mortal Cup
| length7 = 2:56
| title8 = The Angel Rune
| length8 = 4:06
| title9 = Madame Dorothea
| length9 = 3:11
| title10 = Magnus Bane
| length10 = 2:50
| title11 = Demon Doll
| length11 = 2:38
| title12 = Where's the Cup?
| length12 = 3:47
| title13 = You're a Morgenstern
| length13 = 4:02
| title14 = J.C.
| length14 = 2:39
| title15 = She's Not a Mundane
| length15 = 2:24
| title16 = Valentine
| length16 = 3:52
| title17= Midnight in the Garden
| length17 = 2:15
| title18 = Vampires and Werewolves
| length18 = 4:31
| title19 = Mortal Instruments - The Opening
| length19 = 3:31
| title20 = The Portal
| length20 = 2:22
}}

; When the Darkness Comes
{{Infobox song
| Name = When the Darkness Comes
| Cover =
| Artist = [[Colbie Caillat]]
| Album =
| Type = [[Promotional single]]
| Released = {{Start date|2013|07|10}}
| Format = [[Music download|Digital download]]
| Genre = Piano rock, [[Pop music|pop]]
| Length = {{duration|m=4|s=16}}
| Writer = Colbie Caillat, [[David Hodges]]
| Label = [[Republic Records|Republic]]
| Producer = Hodges
| Misc =
}}

"When the Darkness Comes" is a song (recorded by American singer-songwriter [[Colbie Caillat]]). An [[adult contemporary]] ballad that incorporates elements of piano rock, built around a sparse piano arrangement, the song was released on July 10, 2013 via [[Republic Records]] as the first promotional single from the soundtrack. Praised for its "haunting, atmospheric" sound<ref>{{cite web|title=Colbie Caillat's new song for 'The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones' soundtrack: Hear it here -- Exclusive|url=http://music-mix.ew.com/2013/07/09/colbie-caillat-new-song-mortal-instruments-soundtrack/|publisher=[[Entertainment Weekly]]| accessdate=September 15, 2013|archivedate=October 22, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131022082102/http://music-mix.ew.com/2013/07/09/colbie-caillat-new-song-mortal-instruments-soundtrack/|deadurl=no}}</ref> which is intended to capture the dramatic feel of the story. "When the Darkness Comes" features a darker theme than most of Caillat's work.

==Release==
A [[Trailer (promotion)|teaser trailer]] was released in November 2012, and a second trailer was released March 2013. The film was originally due for release on August 23, 2013, but was pushed back two days earlier, on August 21, 2013.<ref>{{cite web|title=Jonathan Rhys Meyers Heads to The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones|url=http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=93367|publisher=Coming Soon|accessdate=August 15, 2012|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130929185740/http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=93367|archivedate=September 29, 2013}}</ref> The film secured broad European distribution deals at Cannes.<ref>{{cite journal|url=http://variety.com/2012/scene/news/eone-locks-deal-for-mortal-instruments-1118054323/|title=EOne locks deal for ‘Mortal Instruments’|work=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|first=Diana|last=Lodderhose|date=May 19, 2012|accessdate=August 16, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140525052640/http://variety.com/2012/scene/news/eone-locks-deal-for-mortal-instruments-1118054323/|archivedate=May 25, 2014|deadurl=no}}</ref>

The film premiered on August 12, 2013, at the [[Cinerama Dome]] in Hollywood.<ref name="variety-crying-shit-yourself">{{cite journal|url=http://variety.com/2013/film/news/cassandra-clare-mortal-instruments-set-1200577301/|title=Cassandra Clare Brought to Tears on ‘Mortal Instruments’ Set|magazine=Variety|first=Alex|last=Stedman|date=August 13, 2013 |accessdate=August 16, 2013|archivedate=August 15, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130815043236/http://variety.com/2013/film/news/cassandra-clare-mortal-instruments-set-1200577301/|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|publisher=[[Daily Mail]]|url= http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2391125/The-Mortal-Instruments-City-Of-Bones-premiere-Ashley-Greene-opts-demure-glamour-effortlessly-chic-cream-shift-minidress.html|title=Pure and simple! Ashley Greene opts for demure glamour in effortlessly chic cream shift minidress at The Mortal Instruments: City Of Bones premiere|work=[[Mail Online]]|first=Louise|last=Saunders|date=August 13, 2013|accessdate=August 16, 2013|location=London|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130814132653/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2391125/The-Mortal-Instruments-City-Of-Bones-premiere-Ashley-Greene-opts-demure-glamour-effortlessly-chic-cream-shift-minidress.html |archivedate=August 14, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref>

===Marketing===
{{Anchor|Marketing|Promotion}}
According to the ''[[Los Angeles Times]]'', $60 million was spent on marketing.<ref name="latimes-dissapoints">{{cite news|author=Amy Kaufman|date=August 22, 2013|title='Butler' likely to be No. 1 again as 'Mortal Instruments' disappoints|newspaper=Los Angeles Times|url=http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/cotown/la-et-ct-box-office-mortal-instruments-worlds-end-20130822,0,2233991.story|quote=$60 million to produce the film and another $60 million to market it abroad|archivedate=August 23, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130823044937/http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/cotown/la-et-ct-box-office-mortal-instruments-worlds-end-20130822,0,2233991.story|deadurl=no}}</ref> Kulzer, Constantin's co-president, stated "$60 million has been spent worldwide on prints and advertising...." and went on to explain the importance of managing expectations.<ref name="latimes-foundation">{{cite news|date=August 21, 2013|author=Nicole Sperling|title=Building a foundation on 'City of Bones'|deadurl=no |url=http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-mortal-instruments-20130822,0,5045021.story?page=2|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130826093332/http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-mortal-instruments-20130822,0,5045021.story?page=2|archivedate=August 22, 2013}}</ref>

===Home media===
''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones'' was released on [[DVD]] and [[Blu-ray Disc|Blu-ray]] on December 3, 2013 by [[Sony Pictures Home Entertainment]].

==Reception==
===Critical response===
{{Anchor|Critics|Critical reception|Reception}}
''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones'' received negative to mixed reviews. [[Review aggregator|Review aggregation]] website [[Rotten Tomatoes]] gives the film a rating of 12% based on 115 reviews, with an average score of 3.9/10. The site commented that "''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones'' borrows ingredients from seemingly every fantasy franchise of the last 30 years — but can't seem to figure out what to do with them."<ref name="tomatoes">{{cite web|publisher=[[Flixster]]|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones (2013)|url= https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_mortal_instruments_city_of_bones/|work=[[Rotten Tomatoes]]|accessdate=August 21, 2013|archivedate=August 28, 2013|deadurl=no|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130828065520/https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_mortal_instruments_city_of_bones/}}</ref> At [[Metacritic]], which assigns a normalized rating out of 100, the film has a score of 33%, based on reviews from 35 critics, indicating "generally unfavorable reviews."<ref name="metacritic">{{cite web |url= http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones |title= The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones (2013) |publisher= [[CBS]] |work=[[Metacritic]] |archiveurl= //web.archive.org/web/20130821071341/http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones |archivedate= August 21, 2013 |deadurl= no |accessdate= August 21, 2013 }}</ref>

''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]''{{-'}}s Robbie Collin gave the film one out of five stars, saying "This gothic teen fantasy is one of the most disastrous page-to-screen adaptations in memory". Collin added "the plot is an incomprehensible tangle of dead ends and recaps, and afterwards you realise only two things have stuck: the story’s countless unsubtle borrowings from very recent pop culture... and a brief aside in which we learn one of the earliest demon-hunters was [[Johann Sebastian Bach]]."<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/filmreviews/10257060/The-Mortal-Instruments-City-of-Bones.html|title=Review: The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones|accessdate=August 21, 2013|location=London|first=Robbie|last=Collin|newspaper=[[The Daily Telegraph]]|deadurl=no|date=August 21, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130826141336/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/filmreviews/10257060/The-Mortal-Instruments-City-of-Bones.html|archivedate=August 26, 2013}}</ref> Michael Rechtshaffen from ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' also gave it a negative review, saying "Certainly not the first and very unlikely the last studio attempt at launching a ''[[The Twilight Saga (film series)|Twilight]]''/''[[The Hunger Games (film)|Hunger Games]]'' franchise of their very own, ''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones'' is a bona fide saga all right—just not in a good way" adding "Despite the overstuffed assortment of vampires, werewolves, warlocks and demons of all shapes and sizes, ''The Mortal Instruments'' seldom feels like anything more than a shameless, soulless knockoff."<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie/mortal-instruments-city-bones/review/609702|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones: Film Review|work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|last=Rechtshaffen|first= Michael|accessdate=August 20, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130822145051/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie/mortal-instruments-city-bones/review/609702|archivedate=August 22, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref> ''[[Daily News (New York)|New York Daily News]]'' also gave it a negative rating of 1 star out of 5; critic Jordan Hoffman felt "This one is by far the worst of the ''Twilight'' copies. And when that bunch includes ''[[The Host (2013 film)|The Host]]'' and ''[[I Am Number Four (film)|I Am Number Four]]'', that’s saying something." adding also "Despite an avalanche of back story, the film is merely an excuse to hop from one spookily dressed set to another. Alas, the titular City of Bones is more of a basement. Other than a gag about a cache of weapons beneath every church altar, there’s hardly a moment of levity or imagination. For a film that is wall-to-wall fantasy, you've seen all of this before, in much better movies."<ref>{{cite news|accessdate=August 21, 2013|url= http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/mortal-instruments-city-bones-movie-review-article-1.1432777|title='The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones,' movie review|publisher=New York Daily News|last=Hoffman|first=Jordan|archivedate=August 22, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130822013446/http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/mortal-instruments-city-bones-movie-review-article-1.1432777|deadurl=no}}</ref>

Tom Keogh of ''[[The Seattle Times]]'' also gave it a negative review, stating "''City of Bones'' is so overwhelmed by CGI effects that it amounts to white noise for the eyes. Far worse is the way director Harald Zwart can’t establish a mature tone to support some of the story’s genuinely bold and challenging elements, especially a forbidden-love theme that deserves a more serious context". However, despite all of this the main cast has received positive feedback, most notably Lily Collins, for carrying the movie well, along with the script which was at times poorly done. br<ref>{{cite web|deadurl=no|url=http://seattletimes.com/html/entertainment/2021651891_mortalinstrumentsxml.html|title=‘The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones’: Teen fantasy doesn’t fly|newspaper=[[The Seattle Times]]|last=Keogh|first=Tom|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140525051405/http://seattletimes.com/html/entertainment/2021651891_mortalinstrumentsxml.html|accessdate=August 21, 2013|archivedate=May 25, 2014}}</ref> A more average review came from film critic Stephanie Merry of ''[[The Washington Post]]'', who said "To be fair, there are elements worth celebrating. The film is thankfully less self-serious than the mopey ''[[The Twilight Saga (film series)|Twilight]]'' films. ''The Mortal Instruments'' revels in its own camp." Then she added "But there is plenty of room for improvement. The action flick is overly long, complicated and, even by teen romance standards, cringe-worthy in its cheesiness."<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-movie-review/2013/08/20/f15c1816-09a9-11e3-8974-f97ab3b3c677_story.html|deadurl=no|title=‘Mortal Instruments: City of Bones’ movie review|newspaper=The Washington Post|last=Merry|first=Stephanie|accessdate=August 21, 2013|date=August 23, 2013}}</ref>

David Blaustein from [[ABC News]] also gave the film an average review of two-and-a-half out of five stars, saying that "Director Harald Zwart unsuccessfully tries to compress teen angst, love, passion, unfulfilled dreams and action into an overzealous, over-the-top, never-ending finale which seems about as well planned as throwing rocks and sand into a blender in the hope that if you blend it long enough at high-enough speed, you might wind up with a delicious milkshake." then he finally added: "''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones'' is not a very good film by any stretch of the imagination. However, it does possess a slick, beautiful, young-adult aesthetic and a supernatural, emotional yet nonsensical love triangle that the film’s target demographic goes crazy for."<ref>{{cite news|last=Blaustein|first= David|url=http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2013/08/movie-review-is-the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-the-next-twilight|title=Movie Review: Is ‘The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones’ The Next ‘Twilight’?|publisher=ABC News|accessdate=August 21, 2013|deadurl=no|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130823040619/http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2013/08/movie-review-is-the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones-the-next-twilight|archivedate=August 23, 2013}}</ref>

Venetia Falconer of [[MTV News]] gave the film a positive review, with a score of 4 out of 5 stars, posting "''The Mortal Instruments'' more than lives up to its hype of ‘The New Twilight’. The special effects are impressive, the battle scenes enthralling and there is solid acting from all members of the cast. The film's main strength is that it perfectly hits the right balance between drama and comedy."<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.mtv.co.uk/news/the-mortal-instruments/388524-mtv-review-the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones|title=MTV Review: The Mortal Instruments|date=August 20, 2013|first= Venetia|last=Falconer|publisher=mtv.co.uk|accessdate=August 24, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130823064712/http://www.mtv.co.uk/news/the-mortal-instruments/388524-mtv-review-the-mortal-instruments-city-of-bones|archivedate=August 23, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref>

{{Anchor|Audience response}}
Cinema audiences responded more positively than critics. Viewers who saw the film on the opening Wednesday, gave an average grade of B+, according to market research firm [[CinemaScore]].<ref name="latimes-dissapoints"/> The audience was 68% female, and 46% under the age of 21.<ref>{{cite news|date=August 25, 2013|author=Ray Subers|title=Weekend Report: 'Butler' Repeats, Newcomers All Open Below $10 Million |url=http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=3718&p=.htm|work=[[Box Office Mojo]]|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130921060156/http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=3718&p=.htm|archivedate=September 21, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref>

===Box office===
''City of Bones'' grossed $9.3 million for the three-day weekend in the U.S. and $18.2 million worldwide, debuting in #3 place as the highest ranked new release, although losing out on the top two spots to holdovers from previous weeks (''[[The Butler|Lee Daniels' The Butler]]'' and ''[[We're the Millers]]'').<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.deadline.com/2013/08/friday-box-office-the-butler-serves-civil-rights-for-1-again-mortal-instruments-3-worlds-end-4-youre-next-5/ |title=‘The Butler’ #1 Again, ‘Mortal Instruments’ #3, ‘The World’s End’ #4, ‘You’re Next’ #6|publisher=[[Deadline.com]]|first=Nikki|last=Finke |date=August 25, 2013|accessdate=April 4, 2014|authorlink=Nikki Finke|archivedate=August 24, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130824120148/http://www.deadline.com/2013/08/friday-box-office-the-butler-serves-civil-rights-for-1-again-mortal-instruments-3-worlds-end-4-youre-next-5/}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url= http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekend&id=mortalinstruments.htm|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones|publisher=[[Box Office Mojo]]|archivedate=August 27, 2013|deadurl=no |archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130827043146/http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekend&id=mortalinstruments.htm}}</ref> For the five-day cumulative total, it grossed $14,088,359 in the U.S. and $23,188,359 worldwide, placing it below estimates of ''Variety'' at $18 million,<ref name=hr>{{cite news|url=http://variety.com/2013/film/news/box-office-mortal-instruments-looking-out-of-tune-with-less-than-20-millions-for-5-days-1200582749|title=Box Office: ‘Mortal Instruments’ Looking Out of Tune With Less Than $20 Million for 5 Days|work= Variety|last=Stewart|first=Andrew|date=August 20, 2013|accessdate=August 21, 2013|archivedate= August 24, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130824005729/http://variety.com/2013/film/news/box-office-mortal-instruments-looking-out-of-tune-with-less-than-20-millions-for-5-days-1200582749|deadurl=no}}</ref> ''The Hollywood Reporter'' at $15 million,<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-report-mortal-instruments-612086|title=Box Office Report: 'Mortal Instruments' Opens No. 1 Wednesday With So-So $3 Million|first1=Rebecca|last1=Ford|first2=Pamela|last2=McClintock|work=The Hollywood Reporter|date=August 22, 2013|accessdate=August 24, 2013|archivedate=August 26, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130826010821/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-report-mortal-instruments-612086|deadurl=no}}</ref> and Sony itself who predicted $15 million. According to ''The Wrap'', the film "failed to connect" and is on the same course as other misfires ''[[Beautiful Creatures (2013 film)|Beautiful Creatures]]'' and ''[[The Host (2013 film)|The Host]]''.<ref>{{cite web|date=August 24, 2013|accessdate=August 25, 2013|url=http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/oprah-winfreys-butler-headed-repeat-win-box-office-113066|title=Oprah Winfrey's 'The Butler' Headed For Repeat Win at Box Office|author=Todd Cunningham|work=The Wrap|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130824153436/http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/oprah-winfreys-butler-headed-repeat-win-box-office-113066|archivedate=August 24, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref> ''Forbes'' also made comparisons with ''Beautiful Creatures'' and ''The Host'', and called the five-day weekend gross "a full-blown disaster"<ref name="forbes-disaster">{{cite news|date=August 24, 2013|author=Scott Mendelson|url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/08/24/friday-box-office-the-butler-tops-weak-new-releases/|work=[[Forbes]]|title=Friday Box Office: 'The Butler' Tops Weak New Releases|accessdate=August 25, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131030032459/http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/08/24/friday-box-office-the-butler-tops-weak-new-releases/|archivedate=October 30, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref> as well as "the biggest bomb of the weekend".<ref name="forbes-bombs">{{cite news|date=August 24, 2013|author=Scott Mendelson|title='The Butler' Tops Again, 'The Mortal Instruments' Bombs|work=Forbes|accessdate=August 25, 2013|url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/08/25/weekend-box-office-the-butler-tops-again-the-mortal-instruments-bombs/|deadurl=no|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131030182027/http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/08/25/weekend-box-office-the-butler-tops-again-the-mortal-instruments-bombs/|archivedate=October 30, 2013}}</ref>

Executive producer Martin Moszkowicz blamed the weak opening in the United States on "a strongly competitive environment", including competition from ''[[You're Next]]'' and ''[[The World's End (film)|The World's End]]'', as well as strong holdovers ''The Butler'' and ''We're the Millers''. Moszkowicz was confident, saying it was still too early to call, with the film still rolling out release in more territories worldwide.<ref>{{cite news|date=August 28, 2013|accessdate=April 4, 2014|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mortal-instruments-global-box-office-616590|title='Mortal Instruments' Looking to Global Box Office to Avoid 'Twilight' Curse|first=Scott|last=Roxborough|work=The Hollywood Reporter|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131103132520/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mortal-instruments-global-box-office-616590|archivedate=November 3, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref>

As of October 10, 2013, it has grossed $31,165,421 at North American box offices and $59,400,000 internationally, bringing the worldwide gross to $90,565,421.<ref name=mojo>{{cite web|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones|url= http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=mortalinstruments.htm|work=Box Office Mojo|publisher=Amazon.com|archivedate= February 9, 2014|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140209122254/http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=mortalinstruments.htm|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref name="the-numbers">{{cite web|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones|url=http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Mortal-Instruments-City-of-Bones-The|work=[[The Numbers (website)|The Numbers]]|publisher=Nash Information Services LLC|archivedate=December 16, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131216020525/http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Mortal-Instruments-City-of-Bones-The#tab=summary|deadurl=no}}</ref>

The Hollywood Reporter described the film as a "major in-house flop" and contributing to studio Constantin's losses for the 2013 year.<ref>{{cite news|date=March 27, 2014|work=The Hollywood Reporter|url =http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/germanys-constantin-media-results-slump-691618|title=Germany's Constantin Media Results Slump as 'Mortal Instruments,' 'Enders Game' Disappoint|accessdate=June 1, 2014|archivedate=July 26, 2014|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140726163230/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/germanys-constantin-media-results-slump-691618|deadurl=no}}</ref>

===Awards===
{{Anchor|Awards|Accolades}}
''The Mortal Instruments'' won four [[Canadian Screen Awards]]: Achievement in Make-Up, Achievement in Overall Sound, Achievement in Sound Editing and Achievement in Visual Effects. It was also nominated for Achievement in Costume Design and Achievement in Art Direction/Production Design.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/03/10/2014-canadian-screen-awards-winners_n_4934229.html |title=2014 Canadian Screen Awards Winners: 'Orphan Black,' David Cronenberg Honoured|publisher=[[The Huffington Post]]|first=Rick|last=Mele|date=March 10, 2014|accessdate=April 4, 2014|archivedate=May 25, 2014|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140525040043/http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/03/10/2014-canadian-screen-awards-winners_n_4934229.html|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|accessdate=April 4, 2014|url=http://www.academy.ca/getmedia/7009a495-8966-4ead-ad65-c46702758d94/Academy_News_2014CSA_Feature_FILM_Nominations_Full.aspx|title=2014 Canadian Screen Awards - Feature Film Nominations by Category of Achievement|publisher=Academy of Canadian Cinema & Television|format=[[ASP.NET|ASPX]]}}</ref>
The film was nominated at the [[2014 Teen Choice Awards]] for [[Teen Choice Award for Choice Movie - Action|Choice Movie: Action]], Choice Movie: Actor Action, and Choice Movie: Actress Action, but lost to ''[[Divergent (film)|Divergent]]'' in all categories.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/teen-choice-awards-2014-winners-724423 |title=Teen Choice Awards: The Complete Winners List |date=August 10, 2014 |website=The Hollywood Reporter |first=Kimberly |last=Nordyke |accessdate=June 21, 2015}}</ref>

==Legacy==
===Canceled sequels===
{{Anchor|Sequels|Sequel}}
On May 8, 2013, before the film was released, it was announced that a [[City of Ashes#Film adaptation|film adaptation of the second book ''City of Ashes'']], would start production on September 23, 2013 with a 2014 release date.<ref>{{cite web|url= http://hollywoodcrush.mtv.com/2013/05/08/mortal-instruments-sequel-city-of-ashes/|title='City Of Bones' Sequel: 'Mortal Instruments: City Of Ashes' Sequel In The Works!|date=May 8, 2013|first=Kat|last=Rosenfield|accessdate=August 16, 2013|work=[[MTV]]|publisher=Viacom|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131029201202/http://hollywoodcrush.mtv.com/2013/05/08/mortal-instruments-sequel-city-of-ashes/|archivedate=October 29, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref> In August 2013, after the film opened below expectations, Kulzer, Constantin's co-president, explained that a sequel was still warranted given increasing book sales and soundtrack revenues.<ref name="latimes-foundation"/> [[Sigourney Weaver]] was set to join the cast while [[Lily Collins]], [[Lena Headey]], [[Jonathan Rhys Meyers]], [[Jemima West]], and [[Jamie Campbell Bower]] were set to reprise their roles.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/sigourney-weaver-talks-join-mortal-594995|title=Sigourney Weaver in Talks to Join 'Mortal Instruments: City of Ashes' (Exclusive)|first=Borys|last=Kit|date=July 29, 2013|work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|accessdate=August 24, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130823185231/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/sigourney-weaver-talks-join-mortal-594995|archivedate=August 23, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=http://entertainment.ie/cinema/news/Sigourney-Weaver-joins-our-Robert-Sheehan-in-The-Mortal-Instruments-sequel/206444.htm|title=Sigourney Weaver joins our Robert Sheehan in The Mortal Instruments sequel|publisher=[[entertainment.ie]]|first=Caroline|last=Foran|date=August 20, 2013|accessdate=August 24, 2013 |deadurl=no|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130822011359/http://entertainment.ie/cinema/news/Sigourney-Weaver-joins-our-Robert-Sheehan-in-The-Mortal-Instruments-sequel/206444.htm|archivedate=August 22, 2013}} {{cite web|url=http://entertainment.ie/videos/The-Mortal-Instruments-City-of-Bones-interview-with-Harald-Zwart/101/206647.htm|title=The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones - interview with Harald Zwart|format=Video|archivedate=August 21, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130821120719/http://entertainment.ie/videos/The-Mortal-Instruments-City-of-Bones-interview-with-Harald-Zwart/101/206647.htm|deadurl=no}}</ref>

On September 10, 2013, ''[[The Hollywood Reporter]]'' claimed that the sequel "had been pushed in the wake of a lackluster box-office opening"<ref>{{cite news|work=The Hollywood Reporter|url= http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mortal-instruments-city-ashes-pushed-625745|title='The Mortal Instruments: City of Ashes' Pushed After Lackluster Franchise Opening|first=Sophie|last=Schillaci|date= September 10, 2013|accessdate=April 4, 2014|archivedate=September 14, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130914172216/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mortal-instruments-city-ashes-pushed-625745|deadurl=no}}</ref> and ''The Wrap'' claimed the film had been postponed indefinitely.<ref name="thewrap-delayed"/> Moszkowicz responded "... Constantin is committed to making the sequel, the company did not want to rush into production with an unfinished screenplay, preferring to take the time to get right".<ref name="thewrap-delayed">{{cite web|url=http://www.thewrap.com/mortal-instruments-city-of-ashes-delayed-exclusive/|title=Future of ‘Mortal Instruments’ Sequel in Jeopardy (Exclusive)|first=Jeff|last=Sneider|date=September 10, 2013|accessdate=April 4, 2014|publisher=[[The Wrap]]|archivedate=May 12, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140512233508/http://www.thewrap.com/mortal-instruments-city-of-ashes-delayed-exclusive/|deadurl=no}}</ref>
Cassandra Clare responded, saying the draft screenplay she saw was "very far from the book" and that the original schedule would not have allowed time for changes, and she thought the delay could therefore be a good thing.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/movies/2013/09/16/mortal_instruments_sequels_toronto_shoot_delayed_indefinitely.html|title=Mortal Instruments sequel’s Toronto shoot delayed indefinitely|date=September 16, 2013|newspaper=[[Toronto Star]]|accessdate=April 4, 2014|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130919060548/http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/movies/2013/09/16/mortal_instruments_sequels_toronto_shoot_delayed_indefinitely.html|archivedate=September 19, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref>

On October 23, 2013, Moszkowicz told ''The Hollywood Reporter'' that production on the sequel would resume in 2014, explaining that Constantin was determined to continue the franchise due to the positive response from fans to the adaptation, though noted that the marketing campaign for ''City of Bones'' was too narrowly focused on teenage fans, proving to be a detriment of Clare's older readers.<ref>{{cite news|title=Constantin to Restart Production on 'Mortal Instruments' Sequel in 2014|date=October 23, 2013|author=Scott Roxborough|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/constantin-restart-production-mortal-instruments-650328|work=[[The Hollywood Reporter]]|accessdate=October 24, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131024080346/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/constantin-restart-production-mortal-instruments-650328|archivedate=October 24, 2013|deadurl=no}}</ref> Moszkowciz also admitted that nothing had been finalized nor confirmed, saying "It is an ongoing discussion that we are having, and it is not done. We haven't made a final decision. But we will only move forward — and we plan to move forward — when we feel we are going to get it right". Moszkowicz later revealed the intention to shoot the film at some time in 2014.<ref>{{cite news|date=October 23, 2013|author=Leo Barraclough|url=http://variety.com/2013/film/international/mortal-instruments-city-of-ashes-set-to-shoot-in-2014-1200754848/|work=Variety|title='Mortal Instruments: City of Ashes' Set to Shoot in 2014|accessdate=October 24, 2013|archivedate=October 25, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131025055707/http://variety.com/2013/film/international/mortal-instruments-city-of-ashes-set-to-shoot-in-2014-1200754848/|deadurl=no}}</ref> On May 20, 2014, Harald Zwart revealed that the studio still had intentions to make the sequel, but explained that he would not direct it, so that he could focus on other projects, although he complimented the first film as "a good window [for him] to show off".<ref>{{cite web|url=http://sciencefiction.com/2014/05/20/director-the-mortal-instruments-city-bones-longer-attached-sequel/|author=Stuart Conover|title= Director Of ‘The Mortal Instruments: City Of Bones’ Is No Longer Attached To The Sequel|publisher=ScienceFiction|accessdate=June 1, 2014|archivedate=June 2, 2014|deadurl=no|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140602193556/http://sciencefiction.com/2014/05/20/director-the-mortal-instruments-city-bones-longer-attached-sequel/}}</ref>

Scott Mendelson of ''[[Forbes]]'' magazine expressed surprise that a sequel was in production: "''The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones'' received neither positive reviews nor box office large enough to justify its production and marketing expenses. Yet, against all odds and arguably against all logic, [...] it’s getting a sequel!"<ref>{{cite news|date=October 23, 2013|author=Scott Mendelson|title='The Mortal Instruments' Is Getting A Sequel Despite Critical, Box Office Failure|url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/10/23/few-saw-it-fewer-liked-it-but-the-mortal-instruments-is-getting-a-sequel/|work=[[Forbes]]|archivedate=October 25, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20131025214825/http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/10/23/few-saw-it-fewer-liked-it-but-the-mortal-instruments-is-getting-a-sequel/|deadurl=no}}</ref> {{Update after|2014|12|reason=delayed again or happening?}}

===Television series===
{{main|Shadowhunters}}
On October 12, 2014 at [[Mipcom]], Constantin confirmed that ''The Mortal Instruments'' would return as a television series, abandoning previous plans for a film sequel, with [[Ed Decter]] as showrunner to start production for next year on at least two or three international shows.<ref name="variety_mipcom">{{cite news|url=http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/constantin-to-produce-tv-series-based-on-resident-evil-mortal-instrument-franchises-1201328293/|author=Leo Barraclough|title=Constantin to Produce TV Series Based on ‘Mortal Instruments,’ ‘Resident Evil’ Franchises|work=Variety|date=October 12, 2014|accessdate=October 13, 2014|archivedate= October 15, 2014|deadurl=no|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20141015024836/http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/constantin-to-produce-tv-series-based-on-resident-evil-mortal-instrument-franchises-1201328293/}}</ref> [[Constantin Film]] and TV head Martin Moszkowicz told ''The Hollywood Reporter'' that "It actually makes sense to do (the novels) as a TV series. There was so much from the book that we had to leave out of the ''Mortal Instruments'' film. In the series we'll be able to go deeper and explore this world in greater detail and depth."<ref name="variety_mipcom" /><ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mipcom-mortal-instruments-return-as-740204|title=MIPCOM: 'The Mortal Instruments' to Return as TV Series|work=The Hollywood Reporter|date=October 12, 2014|accessdate=October 13, 2014|archivedate=October 15, 2014|deadurl =no|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20141015025546/http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mipcom-mortal-instruments-return-as-740204}}</ref>

==Games==
To tie in with the film, [[Sony Pictures]] worked with developers [[PlayFirst]] to release a game on August 15, 2013. The game, available free for [[Android (operating system)|Android]] and [[iOS]], allows players to hunt demons and supernatural monsters like the Shadowhunters of the story. That includes cross-platform features, allowing users to sign in on [[Facebook]] and save their progress across Android and iOS devices.<ref>{{cite news|accessdate=August 16, 2013|date=August 9, 2013|first=Noelene|last=Clark|title=Exclusive: ‘Mortal Instruments’ game lets players be Shadowhunters|newspaper=[[Los Angeles Times]]|url=http://herocomplex.latimes.com/games/exclusive-mortal-instruments-game-lets-players-be-shadowhunters/#/0|archivedate=August 16, 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20130816071919/http://herocomplex.latimes.com/games/exclusive-mortal-instruments-game-lets-players-be-shadowhunters/#/0|deadurl=no}}</ref>

==References==
{{Reflist|30em}}

==External links==
{{Commons category|The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones Panel at the 2013 Comic-Con International|The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones}}
* {{Official website|http://themortalinstrumentsmovie.com/}}
* {{IMDb title|1538403|The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones}}

{{Mortal Instruments}}
{{Harald Zwart}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Mortal Instruments: City Of Bones}}
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Talk:Hollywood blacklist

2016-04-06T03:42:11Z

Die-yng: /* unacceptable bias */

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== unacceptable bias ==

I wanted to read this article hoping to get general understanding of who di what when, that was called The Hollywood blacklist. I wanted a couple of facts. Instead I am now reading somebodies interpretation of history. Someone is trying to force upon me his way of understanding of what happened. It's not that it affects my perception, as I have mind of my own, but it does affect my mood, as I hate being treated like a child that has to be told what's right and what's wrong. But most of all it annoys me, that I have to read through propaganda to check whether there are any trustworthy and unobjectionable facts somewhere in the text. Here is a short list of most outrageous parts of article, as it now stands:
* ''involvement in progressive political causes that enforcers of the blacklist associated with communism''
:since when is ''progressive'' a well-defined politological term? additionally I doubt the way this was put is a scholarly consensus among historians.
* ''often made betrayal of friendship (not to mention principle) the price for a livelihood''
:is that a kind of fact one expects from encyclopedia?
* ''communism increasingly becoming a focus of American fears and hatred''
:or this maybe? is it a conclusion of a sociological study, that Americans had some sort of fear and hatred, that had some sort of focus? did anyone check whether Americans hated and feared, or just opposed? Whether actions against communists were motivated rationally or emotionally? Perhaps there wa a study that led someone to believe it was communism, that worried Americans, not the worldwide activity of Stalin's, extraordinary tyrant, supporters?
I think three is enough. Article, in it's current form, is unacceptable. I will do what I can to bring around someone knowledgeable without bias, to practically rewrite it. I expect emotionally involved people to act against that, but this is encyclopedia, not a communist brochure. [[User:E7th04sh|E7th04sh]] ([[User talk:E7th04sh|talk]]) 03:34, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

:Of course you should certainly be bold and change areas of original research and bias, as I have. But I don't think the article is in nearly as bad a shape as you represent, so I would suggest discussing any massive changes. [[User:Figureofnine|Figureofnine]] ([[User talk:Figureofnine|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Figureofnine|contribs]]) 13:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Can someone who knows the facts fix the obvious vandalisms here?:
<blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>On July 29, 1946, Charlotte H., publisher and founder of The Hollywood Reporter, published a "TradeView" column entitled "A Vote For Joe Stalin". It named as Communist sympathizers Dalton Trumbo, Maurice Rapf, Lester Cole, Howard Koch, Harold Buchman, John Wexley, Ring Lardner Jr., Harold Salemson, Henry Meyers, Theodore Strauss, and Alex G.. In August and September 1946, Wilkerson published other columns containing names of numerous purported Communists and sympathizers. They became known as "Billy's List" and "Billy's Blacklist."[9][10]"<blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

Lol. Bias? I do see bias, but not in any way or form as a communist brochure. No idea if this is an American thing, but the HuAC is widely known among serious historians to be nothing but a witch hunt. McCarthy and Co didn't have a right to act as they did, the people that were blacklisted were innocent victims of fanatics who in their zeal to hunt communists had no problems with violating the spirit of the Constitution.
When I read passages like the following in the section about the "Hollywood Ten," I have to wonder if whoever wrote this part once to justify the injustice these people faced.
"The Hollywood Ten took a bold stance and acknowledged the potential punishments they faced, but that did not stop them from acting indignantly during their appearances before HUAC. They yelled at the Chairman and treated the Committee with open indignation, emanating negativity and discouraging outside public favor and help. "[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 03:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

== Month of fingerprinting photo ==

I believe that the November month given for the [[:File:Hollywood10.jpg|fingerprinting photo]] (added by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hollywood_blacklist&diff=84312821&oldid=84307422 this edit] by [[User:DCGeist]] on 28 October 2006) may be in error. I think the photo may have been taken on December 12, 1947. I have found several sources, including the supposed copyright holder (see [[File_talk:Hollywood10.jpg#copyright owned by Corbis?|discussion on file's talk page]] for more information) saying December (but also some saying otherwise) and December fits in better with the general timeline of the Hollywood Ten story. The location is also uncertain. The copyright holder's information says Los Angeles but steps do not looks like the [[United States Court House (Los Angeles, 1940)]]. Plus some sources say the picture was taken in DC but I can't tell which building it would have been. It does however look like it may be the [[Thurgood Marshall United States Courthouse]] in New York City. Totally confused at the moment on the location. The Corbis data listing also says that only nine of the ten are in the photo, but all ten seem to be there, further making their claim confusing. [[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]] ([[User talk:Jason Quinn|talk]]) 20:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

== did Reagan "name names?" ==

"Reagan named several members of his union as communist sympathizers." In the transcript of his HUAC appearance, Reagan says a small clique within the SAG used what he thought of as communist-like tactics, but he says that normal democratic processes within the union had them under control. He says he didn't know if they were communists or not, and he does not "name names." Walt Disney, who testified immediately afterwards, did name specific trouble-making individuals he thought were communist.

Maybe there were other meetings, maybe closed session, but there's no source listed, and a google search doesn't find anything.

"Naming names" is a big deal, let's get it right.

transcript of Reagan's HUAC testimony
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6458/ — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.16.84.181|73.16.84.181]] ([[User talk:73.16.84.181|talk]]) 14:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC) 

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:3|one external link|3 external links}} on [[Hollywood blacklist]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=706643317 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070927015754/http://www.wga.org/writtenby/writtenbysub.aspx?id=2247 to http://www.wga.org/writtenby/writtenbysub.aspx?id=2247
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061027052439/http://www.oah.org:80/pubs/magazine/coldwar/briley1.html to http://www.oah.org/pubs/magazine/coldwar/briley1.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071015082054/http://twcnet.edu:80/cschutz/history-page/Consensus/Reagan-huac-testimony.html to http://www.twcnet.edu/cschutz/history-page/Consensus/Reagan-huac-testimony.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.

{{sourcecheck|checked=false}}

Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|cyberbot II]][[User talk:Cyberbot II|Talk to my owner]]:Online 13:31, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

== Request for explanation of an edit ==

The editor Thewolfchild objects to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hollywood_blacklist&diff=712602629&oldid=712602203 this edit] in which the entry

*[[Zero Mostel]], actor and comedian

was changed to

*[[Zero Mostel|Samuel "Zero" Mostel]], actor and comedian (later a cast member of ''[[The Front]]'')

since I didn't understand his objection, I reverted it, with the edit summary: "I don't understand what you are objecting to in this edit, the name or the mention of The Front, which is a movie about blacklisting". I still don't understand since Thewolfchild reverted me back, with a mention of BRD, but no mention of his objection to the edit.

Two points:

#What '''''is''''' the objection? Zero Mostel's actual name was Samuel, but that could be fixed with a simple edit. The fact that he was a cast member in ''The Front'' is significant, as that movie was about the Hollywood blacklist. Is the objection that there is no cite for Mostel being in the film. That, too, is easily fixed with a ref from AFI. Either of these things could have been done by Thewolfchild if he wished to, instead of simply reverting.
#[[WP:BRD]] is about the initial editor, and the reverter. It does '''''not''''' apply to third editors weighin in on the situation. If anything, a third editor supporting the initial editor is an indication of a possible consensus. IN point of fact, Thewolfchild broke BRD when he reverted me, since that was tantamount to a second revert of the original editor.

So, what the heck is it that is objectionable about

*[[Zero Mostel|Samuel "Zero" Mostel]], actor and comedian (later a cast member of ''[[The Front]]'')

that Thewolfchild feels he needed to edit war about it? [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:46, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
:I am pinging {{u|Thewolfchild}} so that he is aware I have posted this request for an explanation on the article talk page. [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:50, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
::Actually, if you look at the previous edits, an IP user added "The Front" about a half dozen time to others on the list, (all linked), without refs, and made some other minor punctuation changes that weren't needed. I had reverted those as well. It seems they missed Mostel, and added that after... that was the first revert you saw. So I was reverting back to status quo and you were actually re-reverting. (AGF says you didn't realize that). reverting the minor changes and de-linking are all self-explanatory, but as for adding "The Front" to each person affiliated with the film, I don't see a need for that. The article has a ''very'' extensive list of Hollywood people, are we gonna start adding filmography credits and other notations next to all their names? Which ones? How many? What gets added? What doesn't? Once this starts... where does it end? This could lead to the page becoming quite messy and the list unwieldy. Almost all the people have linked articles, there no reason why readers can't just click on their name to see their film credits. The page was fine the way it was. - ''[[User: Thewolfchild|the'''<big>WOLF</big>'''child]]'' 03:05, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
:::There really aren't that many films about the blacklist, so I don't see anything particularly wrong with indicating which of the blaclkisted people were involved in ''The Front'' - in fact it seems very relevant to the subject; but perhaps it would better to do it by marking the name with "¶" or some other symbol, with an explanation at the bottom. Would you object to that? [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 03:48, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
::::If people agree that it's worthwhile to add info about this film, then I'm fine with it also. But, why not just add it to the prose? (if there is an appropriate point somewhere in the article body). Or if people feel it's relevance is strong enough, note it in the lead even. Or add a new subsection near the bottom and add some actual info about the film, beyond just credits. Or just add a pop culture section. Plenty ways to go about this, I just don't agree with adding individual credits to a handful of people on a list of 300+, where no one else has any credits or notes of any kind with their name. - ''[[User: Thewolfchild|the'''<big>WOLF</big>'''child]]'' 04:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
::::::A list of names in prose can easily be skipped over, so I don't think that a good idea, but a section about the film (and the few other films about the black list) would be fine with me, but would probably be disapproved of by the people who don;t believe that popular culture belongs on Wikipedia. I'd have to do some research to work up a section like that, which I'm not well disposed to do right now, but I can give it a try when I'm able. [[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 04:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

In Dreams (film)

2015-09-30T11:45:42Z

Die-yng: /* Cast */

{{Infobox film
| name = In Dreams
| image = In dreams.jpg
| image_size =
| caption =
| director = [[Neil Jordan]]
| producer = Charles Burke [[Redmond Morris]] [[Stephen Woolley]]
| screenplay = [[Bruce Robinson]] Neil Jordan
| based on = {{based on|''Doll's Eyes''|[[Bari Wood]]}}
| starring = [[Annette Bening]] [[Katie Sagona]] [[Aidan Quinn]] [[Stephen Rea]] [[Robert Downey, Jr.]] [[Paul Guilfoyle]]
| music = [[Elliot Goldenthal]]
| cinematography = [[Darius Khondji]]
| editing = Tony Lawson
|Leading Role = Jenn Dragon
| studio = [[Amblin Entertainment]]<ref>Copyright Application for ''In Dreams'' (January 27, 1999). [[United States Copyright Office]]. Retrieved November 8, 2012.</ref>
| distributor = [[DreamWorks Pictures]]
| released = January 15, 1999 (USA) April 30, 1999 (UK)
| runtime = 98 minutes
| country = [[United States]]
| language = [[English language|English]]
| budget = $30 million<ref>[http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=indreams.htm Box Office Mojo] Budget. Retrieved March 3, 2014</ref>
| gross = $12 million<ref>[http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=indreams.htm Box Office Mojo] Total Gross. Retrieved March 3, 2014</ref>
}}
'''''In Dreams''''' is a 1999 [[psychological thriller]] film directed by [[Neil Jordan]]. It stars [[Annette Bening]] as a [[New England]] [[illustrator]] who begins experiencing visions of a missing child who turns out to be her own daughter; through her dreams, she begins having psychic connections to a [[serial killer]] responsible for the murder of her daughter and several other local children.

==Plot==

Claire Cooper (Benning) is a suburban housewife and mother who illustrates children's stories and is married to an airline pilot ([[Aidan Quinn]]). Her world unravels when her daughter is kidnapped and brutally murdered.

Claire is haunted by her daughter's murderer, a [[serial killer]] named Vivian Thompson (Downey). She has several visions of murders he commits next. When doctors diagnose her as [[psychosis|psychotic]], Claire is committed to a [[mental institution]]. She receives a vision of Vivian kidnapping another child, so she escapes to track him down and stop him from killing again.

== Cast ==
{{Div col}}
* [[Annette Benning]] as Claire Cooper
* [[Katie Sagona]] as Rebecca Cooper
* [[Aidan Quinn]] as Paul Cooper
* [[Robert Downey, Jr.]] as Vivian Thompson
* [[Paul Guilfoyle]] as Detective Jack Kay
* Kathleen Langlois as Snow White
* [[Jennifer Berry]] as Hunter
* Amelia Claire Novotny as Prince
* Kristin Sroka as Wicked Step-Mother
* Robert Walsh as Man at School Play
* Denise Cormier as Woman at School Play
* [[John Fiore (actor)|John Fiore]] as Policeman
* [[Ken Cheeseman]] as Paramedic
* [[Dennis Boutsikaris]] as Doctor Stevens
* [[Stephen Rea]] as Doctor Silverman
* [[Margo Martindale]] as Nurse Floyd
* June Lewin as Kindly Nurse
* [[Pamela Payton-Wright]] as Ethel
* Krystal Benn as Ruby
* Dorothy Dwyer as Foster Mother
{{Div col end}}

==Reception==
{{Expand section|date=April 2015}}
''In Dreams'' received negative reviews from critics. Christopher Null from filmcritic.com gave the film two stars out of five, stating, "The story never comes together, despite an intriguing performance from Bening as a complete nut job."<ref>http://www.filmcritic.com/reviews/1999/in-dreams/</ref> Adam Goldberg from All Movie Guide gave it three stars out of five, commenting that the film "is a mildly suspenseful but disjointed thriller.... Ultimately, ''In Dreams'' is ''[[The Exorcist (film)|The Exorcist]]'' meets ''[[A Nightmare on Elm Street]]'', but it simply lacks a new and terrifying take on the dream/reality premise."<ref>http://www.answers.com/topic/in-dreams-film</ref> The film currently holds a 25% rating on [[Rotten Tomatoes]] based on 51 reviews.

==Soundtrack==
The soundtrack to ''In Dreams'' was released on January 12, 1999.

{{Track listing
| collapsed = no
| extra_column = Artist
| total_length = 49:27<ref>[http://www.allmusic.com/album/in-dreams-mw0000048161 In Dreams Soundtrack] AllMusic. Retrieved March 3, 2014</ref>

| title1 = Agitato Dolorosa
| length1 = 4:59
| extra1 = [[Elliot Goldenthal]] featuring [[London Metropolitan Orchestra]]

| title2 = Claire's Nocturne
| length2 = 2:38
| extra2 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title3 = Pull of Red
| length3 = 2:07
| extra3 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title4 = Appellatron
| length4 = 3:33
| extra4 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title5 = Wraith Loops
| length5 = 3:27
| extra5 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title6 = Rubber Room Stomp
| length6 = 2:00
| extra6 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title7 = Pulled by Red
| length7 = 1:11
| extra7 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title8 = Scytheoplicity
| length8 = 2:26
| extra8 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title9 = [[In Dreams (Roy Orbison song)|In Dreams]]
| length9 = 2:50
| extra9 = [[Roy Orbison]]

| title10 = Rebecca's Abduction
| length10 = 4:32
| extra10 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title11 = Premonition Lento
| length11 = 1:42
| extra11 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title12 = While We Sleep
| length12 = 2:36
| extra12 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title13 = [[Don't Sit Under the Apple Tree (With Anyone Else but Me)]]
| length13 = 2:17
| extra13 = [[The Andrews Sisters]]

| title14 = Andante
| length14 = 3:38
| extra14 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title15 = Elegy Ostinato
| length15 = 4:11
| extra15 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title16 = Dream Baby
| length16 = 4:30
| extra16 = [[Elizabeth Fraser]]

}}

== References ==
{{Reflist|30em}}

== External links ==
{{refbegin}}

* {{IMDb title|id=0120710|title=In Dreams}}
* {{rotten-tomatoes|in_dreams|In Dreams}}
* {{Mojo title|indreams|In Dreams}}

{{refend}}

{{Neil Jordan}}

[[Category:1999 films]]
[[Category:Films set in Massachusetts]]
[[Category:Serial killer films]]
[[Category:Supernatural thriller films]]
[[Category:Films directed by Neil Jordan]]
[[Category:American horror films]]
[[Category:American films]]
[[Category:1999 horror films]]
[[Category:DreamWorks Pictures films]]
[[Category:Amblin Entertainment films]]
[[Category:Films shot in Massachusetts]]
[[Category:Films shot in North Carolina]]
[[Category:Films shot in New Hampshire]]
[[Category:Films shot in New Mexico]]
[[Category:Films shot in California]]
[[Category:Films shot in Tennessee]]
[[Category:Films shot in Mexico]]
[[Category:Films based on thriller novels]]
[[Category:Film scores by Elliot Goldenthal]]

In Dreams (film)

2015-09-30T11:45:25Z

Die-yng: /* Plot */

{{Infobox film
| name = In Dreams
| image = In dreams.jpg
| image_size =
| caption =
| director = [[Neil Jordan]]
| producer = Charles Burke [[Redmond Morris]] [[Stephen Woolley]]
| screenplay = [[Bruce Robinson]] Neil Jordan
| based on = {{based on|''Doll's Eyes''|[[Bari Wood]]}}
| starring = [[Annette Bening]] [[Katie Sagona]] [[Aidan Quinn]] [[Stephen Rea]] [[Robert Downey, Jr.]] [[Paul Guilfoyle]]
| music = [[Elliot Goldenthal]]
| cinematography = [[Darius Khondji]]
| editing = Tony Lawson
|Leading Role = Jenn Dragon
| studio = [[Amblin Entertainment]]<ref>Copyright Application for ''In Dreams'' (January 27, 1999). [[United States Copyright Office]]. Retrieved November 8, 2012.</ref>
| distributor = [[DreamWorks Pictures]]
| released = January 15, 1999 (USA) April 30, 1999 (UK)
| runtime = 98 minutes
| country = [[United States]]
| language = [[English language|English]]
| budget = $30 million<ref>[http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=indreams.htm Box Office Mojo] Budget. Retrieved March 3, 2014</ref>
| gross = $12 million<ref>[http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=indreams.htm Box Office Mojo] Total Gross. Retrieved March 3, 2014</ref>
}}
'''''In Dreams''''' is a 1999 [[psychological thriller]] film directed by [[Neil Jordan]]. It stars [[Annette Bening]] as a [[New England]] [[illustrator]] who begins experiencing visions of a missing child who turns out to be her own daughter; through her dreams, she begins having psychic connections to a [[serial killer]] responsible for the murder of her daughter and several other local children.

==Plot==

Claire Cooper (Benning) is a suburban housewife and mother who illustrates children's stories and is married to an airline pilot ([[Aidan Quinn]]). Her world unravels when her daughter is kidnapped and brutally murdered.

Claire is haunted by her daughter's murderer, a [[serial killer]] named Vivian Thompson (Downey). She has several visions of murders he commits next. When doctors diagnose her as [[psychosis|psychotic]], Claire is committed to a [[mental institution]]. She receives a vision of Vivian kidnapping another child, so she escapes to track him down and stop him from killing again.

== Cast ==
{{Div col}}
* [[Annette Bening]] as Claire Cooper
* [[Katie Sagona]] as Rebecca Cooper
* [[Aidan Quinn]] as Paul Cooper
* [[Robert Downey, Jr.]] as Vivian Thompson
* [[Paul Guilfoyle]] as Detective Jack Kay
* Kathleen Langlois as Snow White
* [[Jennifer Berry]] as Hunter
* Amelia Claire Novotny as Prince
* Kristin Sroka as Wicked Step-Mother
* Robert Walsh as Man at School Play
* Denise Cormier as Woman at School Play
* [[John Fiore (actor)|John Fiore]] as Policeman
* [[Ken Cheeseman]] as Paramedic
* [[Dennis Boutsikaris]] as Doctor Stevens
* [[Stephen Rea]] as Doctor Silverman
* [[Margo Martindale]] as Nurse Floyd
* June Lewin as Kindly Nurse
* [[Pamela Payton-Wright]] as Ethel
* Krystal Benn as Ruby
* Dorothy Dwyer as Foster Mother
{{Div col end}}

==Reception==
{{Expand section|date=April 2015}}
''In Dreams'' received negative reviews from critics. Christopher Null from filmcritic.com gave the film two stars out of five, stating, "The story never comes together, despite an intriguing performance from Bening as a complete nut job."<ref>http://www.filmcritic.com/reviews/1999/in-dreams/</ref> Adam Goldberg from All Movie Guide gave it three stars out of five, commenting that the film "is a mildly suspenseful but disjointed thriller.... Ultimately, ''In Dreams'' is ''[[The Exorcist (film)|The Exorcist]]'' meets ''[[A Nightmare on Elm Street]]'', but it simply lacks a new and terrifying take on the dream/reality premise."<ref>http://www.answers.com/topic/in-dreams-film</ref> The film currently holds a 25% rating on [[Rotten Tomatoes]] based on 51 reviews.

==Soundtrack==
The soundtrack to ''In Dreams'' was released on January 12, 1999.

{{Track listing
| collapsed = no
| extra_column = Artist
| total_length = 49:27<ref>[http://www.allmusic.com/album/in-dreams-mw0000048161 In Dreams Soundtrack] AllMusic. Retrieved March 3, 2014</ref>

| title1 = Agitato Dolorosa
| length1 = 4:59
| extra1 = [[Elliot Goldenthal]] featuring [[London Metropolitan Orchestra]]

| title2 = Claire's Nocturne
| length2 = 2:38
| extra2 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title3 = Pull of Red
| length3 = 2:07
| extra3 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title4 = Appellatron
| length4 = 3:33
| extra4 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title5 = Wraith Loops
| length5 = 3:27
| extra5 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title6 = Rubber Room Stomp
| length6 = 2:00
| extra6 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title7 = Pulled by Red
| length7 = 1:11
| extra7 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title8 = Scytheoplicity
| length8 = 2:26
| extra8 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title9 = [[In Dreams (Roy Orbison song)|In Dreams]]
| length9 = 2:50
| extra9 = [[Roy Orbison]]

| title10 = Rebecca's Abduction
| length10 = 4:32
| extra10 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title11 = Premonition Lento
| length11 = 1:42
| extra11 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title12 = While We Sleep
| length12 = 2:36
| extra12 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title13 = [[Don't Sit Under the Apple Tree (With Anyone Else but Me)]]
| length13 = 2:17
| extra13 = [[The Andrews Sisters]]

| title14 = Andante
| length14 = 3:38
| extra14 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title15 = Elegy Ostinato
| length15 = 4:11
| extra15 = Elliot Goldenthal featuring London Metropolitan Orchestra

| title16 = Dream Baby
| length16 = 4:30
| extra16 = [[Elizabeth Fraser]]

}}

== References ==
{{Reflist|30em}}

== External links ==
{{refbegin}}

* {{IMDb title|id=0120710|title=In Dreams}}
* {{rotten-tomatoes|in_dreams|In Dreams}}
* {{Mojo title|indreams|In Dreams}}

{{refend}}

{{Neil Jordan}}

[[Category:1999 films]]
[[Category:Films set in Massachusetts]]
[[Category:Serial killer films]]
[[Category:Supernatural thriller films]]
[[Category:Films directed by Neil Jordan]]
[[Category:American horror films]]
[[Category:American films]]
[[Category:1999 horror films]]
[[Category:DreamWorks Pictures films]]
[[Category:Amblin Entertainment films]]
[[Category:Films shot in Massachusetts]]
[[Category:Films shot in North Carolina]]
[[Category:Films shot in New Hampshire]]
[[Category:Films shot in New Mexico]]
[[Category:Films shot in California]]
[[Category:Films shot in Tennessee]]
[[Category:Films shot in Mexico]]
[[Category:Films based on thriller novels]]
[[Category:Film scores by Elliot Goldenthal]]

Black Dahlia suspects

2015-06-29T12:04:41Z

Die-yng: /* Bugsy Siegel */ /* Bugsy Siegel */ I removed part of a sentence due to it not being a fact, while claiming to be one, without any source given.

{{Refimprove|date=February 2012}}

Many '''Black Dahlia suspects''', or [[person of interest|persons of interest]], have been proposed as the unidentified killer of [[Elizabeth Short]], nicknamed the ''[[Black Dahlia]]'', who was murdered in 1947. Many theories have been advanced, but none have been found to be completely persuasive by experts, and some are not taken seriously at all.

The murder investigation by the [[Los Angeles Police Department|LAPD]] was the largest since the murder of [[Marion Parker]] in 1927, and involved hundreds of officers borrowed from other [[law enforcement agency|law enforcement agencies]]. Sensational and sometimes inaccurate press coverage, as well as the nature of the crime, focused intense public attention on the case. As the case continues to command public attention, many more people have been proposed as Short's killer, much like London's ''[[Jack the Ripper]]'' murders.

==Original suspects==
Because of the complexity of the case, the original investigators treated every person who knew Elizabeth Short as a suspect who had to be eliminated. Hundreds of people were considered suspects and thousands were interviewed by police.

About 60 people confessed to the murder, mostly men but including a few women.<ref>Bray, Christopher. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/05/28/bowol28.xml "'Hell, someone's cut this girl in half!'"], ''[[The Daily Telegraph]]'', March 6, 2006. Retrieved January 8, 2008.</ref> However, 25 people were considered to be viable suspects by the Los Angeles [[District Attorney]]:<ref name=LAWeekly>Lemons, Stephen. [http://www.laweekly.com/2003-07-17/news/black-dahlia-backlash/ "Black Dahlia Backlash: Family members take Hodel’s Avenger to task], ''[[LA Weekly]]'', July 10, 2003. Accessed January 8, 2008. "Also in the box is D.A. investigator Frank Jemison’s report from 1950 detailing 22 suspects in connection with the Dahlia case."</ref><ref>[http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news2/article.php?storyid=4/ Black Dahlia - News 2]</ref><ref>[http://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/9604/38/i-killed-the-black-dahlia-the-telephone/ Black Dahlia - Book 4]</ref>

{{div col|3}}
* Carl Balsiger
* C. Welsh
* Sergeant “Chuck” (name unknown)
* John D. Wade
* Joe Scalis
* James Nimmo
* Maurice Clement
* A Chicago police officer
* Salvador Torres Vera
* [[#George Hodel|Dr. George Hodel]]
* Marvin Margolis
* Glenn Wolf
* Michael Anthony Otero
* George Bacos
* Francis Campbell
* "[[#Female suspects|Queer Woman Surgeon]]"
* Dr. Adam Fairall
* Dr. Paul DeGaston
* Dr. A. E. Brix
* Dr. M. M. Schwartz
* Dr. Arthur McGinnis Faught
* [[#Patrick S. O'Reilly|Dr. Patrick S. O’Reilly]]
* [[#Mark Hansen|Mark Hansen]]
* [[#Jacob Edward Fisk|Jacob Edward Fisk]]
{{div col end}}

People dismissed as suspects early in the investigation include [[Daniel S. Voorhees]].

==Current suspects==
While some of the original 25 suspects were discounted, new ones have arisen. At present the following suspects are discussed by various authors and experts:

===Walter Bayley===
Dr. Walter Alonzo Bayley was a Los Angeles surgeon who lived in a house one block south of the vacant lot in which Elizabeth Short's body was found, until he left his wife in October 1946. At the time of the murder, Bayley's estranged wife still lived in the home. Bayley's daughter was a friend of Elizabeth Short's sister Virginia and brother-in-law Adrian and had been the matron of honor at their wedding. When Bayley died in January 1948, his [[autopsy]] showed that he was suffering from degenerative brain disease. After his death, Bayley's widow alleged that his mistress knew a "terrible secret" about Bayley and claimed this was the reason the mistress was the main beneficiary upon his death. Bayley was never a suspect in the case, but many medical doctors and others with medical training were. In secret testimony, Detective Harry Hansen, one of the original investigators, told the 1949 [[Los Angeles County]] [[grand jury]] that in his opinion the killer was a "top medical man" and "a fine surgeon." Bayley was 67 years old at the time of the murder, had no known history of violence or criminal activity of any kind, and is not known to have met Short, even though his daughter was a friend of Short's oldest sister.

When Larry Harnisch, a [[copy editor]] and writer for the ''[[Los Angeles Times]]'', began studying the case in 1996, he eventually concluded that Bayley could be Elizabeth Short's killer.<ref>[http://www.lmharnisch.com Heaven Is HERE! The Murder of Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia; Los Angeles' Most Famous Unsolved Killing]</ref> Although critics of Harnisch's theory question whether Bayley's mental and physical condition at the time of the murder would have been consistent with the commission of this type of crime, the original investigators' theory that the body was cut in half because the killer wasn't strong enough to move it intact partially answers this objection. Harnisch theorizes that Bayley’s [[neurology|neurological]] deterioration contributed to his alleged violence against Short. Some have suggested that the secret that Bayley’s mistress was [[blackmail]]ing him with was that he had performed [[abortion]]s, then a crime. However, there is no evidence that Bayley performed abortions or associated with anyone involved in performing abortions. Author [[James Ellroy]] endorsed Harnisch's theory in the [[2001 in film|2001]] film ''James Ellroy's Feast of Death''.<ref>[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0333445/ Feast of Death (2001)]</ref>

Among the behavioral/psychological evidence that Harnisch marshals as part of his theory: Walter Bayley’s neurodegenerative condition was known to produce violent behavior in otherwise passive individuals; Bayley’s surgical specializations included mastectomies, hysterectomies, and the surgical removal of fat; in conversation with Bayley’s former receptionist, Harnisch discovered that Bayley and his mistress would, at dinnertime, watch movies of surgeries and autopsies.<ref>[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0333445/ Feast of Death (2001)]</ref>

In devising his theory, Harnisch consulted retired FBI profiler [[John E. Douglas]], who advised that the very public location of the dump site must have some significance, since the killer had the ability to transport the body to a more remote site, where it may not have been discovered; the dump site was one block away from property owned by Ruth Bayley, Walter Bayley’s estranged wife.<ref>[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0333445/ Feast of Death (2001)]</ref>

Douglas also advised that the facial lacerations indicated personal anger towards the victim: Elizabeth Short would often falsely tell men that she had a son who had died tragically; Walter Bayley did, in fact, have a son who was struck by a car and killed at age 11. The deceased Walter Bayley Jr.’ s birthday was January 13th; Elizabeth Short’s body was discovered on January 15th.<ref>[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0333445/ Feast of Death (2001)]</ref>

===Norman Chandler===
Chandler, publisher of the ''Los Angeles Times'', is accused of involvement in Elizabeth Short's murder in Donald Wolfe's ''The Mob, the Mogul, and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles''. In a complicated scenario involving multiple perpetrators, Wolfe claims that Chandler impregnated Short while she was working as a [[call girl]] for the notorious [[Hollywood]] "madam" [[Brenda Allen]], which led to Short's murder at the hands of gangster [[Bugsy Siegel]]. Wolfe's claim that Short was a prostitute is at odds with the Los Angeles County district attorney's files, which plainly state that she was not, as Wolfe asserted, [[pregnant]].<ref>[http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news2/article.php?storyid=3 Black Dahlia - News 2]</ref>

===Leslie Dillon===
Leslie Dillon was a 27-year-old bellhop, aspiring writer and former mortician's assistant who became a suspect in the case when he began writing to LAPD police [[psychiatry|psychiatrist]] Dr. J. Paul De River in October 1948. Dillon was living in [[Florida]] at the time of his correspondence with De River, but had formerly lived in Los Angeles. Dillon read a story about the case in a "true detective" magazine in which De River was quoted and wrote to De River regarding his theories on the case, and mentioning his intense interest in sadism and sexual psychopathia in hopes of authoring a book on the subject. Contrary to public perception, Dillon, unlike so many other headline chasers involved at the time, was not a Confessing Sam. He never confessed or admitted to the crime but rather offered up another man as a likely suspect, a friend of his named Jeff Connors. Over the course of their correspondence, De River began to believe that Connors was a figment of Dillon's imagination and that Dillon had committed the murder himself. After the correspondence, in December 1948 Dillon agreed to meet with De River and was given the choice of one of three cities, Phoenix, Los Angeles, or Las Vegas. Dillon expressed reservations about Los Angeles and chose Las Vegas instead and was sent an airline ticket. De River and a few undercover LAPD officers met Dillon in Las Vegas for a couple of days and then proceeded to drive back to California. Once there, Dillon had hopes of going to San Francisco to point out his friend Jeff Connors to De River. After reaching San Francisco, they searched for Jeff Connors but failed to locate him. Only after not being able to track down Connors in San Francisco and offering up intimate details about the crime that even investigators had difficultly explaining was Dillon then handcuffed by an undercover officer and officially taken into custody for their trip back to Los Angeles. After this happened, Dillon sailed a postcard out a hotel window with a plea for help on it; it was discovered by a passerby and turned in to local authorities.

After De River and the undercover officers had Dillon in Los Angeles, police soon discovered that Jeff Connors was a real person whose real name was Artie Lane. Lane had lived in Los Angeles at the time of the murder and was employed by Columbia Studios, a favorite hangout of Elizabeth Short's, as a maintenance man. However, contrary to popular belief, Leslie Dillon could not be conclusively placed in [[San Francisco]] at the time of the murder. Police concluded that Dillon was most likely in San Francisco at the time of the murder, but not that he conclusively was. In fact, police never could account for Dillon's whereabouts between January 9 and January 15, 1947. Dillon later filed a $100,000 claim against the City of Los Angeles but quickly dropped the lawsuit after it came to light that he was wanted by Santa Monica police for robbing the vault of a Santa Monica hotel while employed there as a bellhop a few years earlier. This "scandal" caused by the Dillon affair partially triggered a 1949 grand jury investigation of police handling of the Black Dahlia case and some other unsolved murders.<ref>[http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news2/article.php?storyid=8 Black Dahlia - News 2]</ref><ref>[http://www.lmharnisch.com/faq.html Heaven Is HERE! Larry Harnisch's Site on Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia. Black Dahlia FAQ]</ref> In 2004, De River's daughter, Jacque Daniel, published a book called ''The Curse of the Black Dahlia'' in which she expressed her belief that her father had been unfairly maligned for the Dillon affair.<ref>[http://policepsychiatrist.com Police Psychiatrist J. Paul de River, M.D. - Black Dahlia Investigator]</ref>

===Joseph A. Dumais===
Joseph Dumais, a 29-year-old soldier stationed at [[Fort Dix, New Jersey]], confessed to the murder a few weeks after it occurred. Although this "breakthrough" was quickly dismissed by the original investigators, the Los Angeles press covered it enthusiastically until it was revealed that Dumais had been at Fort Dix at the time of the murder. Dumais was cleared of any involvement in the crime, although he continued to claim he killed Elizabeth Short each time he was arrested for various offenses, well into the 1950s.

===Mark Hansen===
Mark Hansen was a Hollywood nightclub and theater owner who knew Short while she was in Los Angeles. Short lived in Hansen's home, as a paying boarder or as a guest (accounts vary), on several occasions between May 1946 and October 1946. Hansen's girlfriend Ann Toth shared a room with Short in this house, which was near Hansen's nightclub, the Florentine Gardens. Short called Hansen in Los Angeles from [[San Diego]] on January 8 or 9, making him one of the last people known to have spoken to her.<ref>[http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news/article.php?storyid=18 Black Dahlia - News]</ref> Los Angeles district attorney files indicate that Hansen made contradictory statements to authorities about the nature of this conversation. An address book embossed with Hansen's name was among Short's belongings mailed to a newspaper after Short's murder by someone claiming to be her killer. The address book belonged to Hansen, but he had never used it. Short had been using it as her own. Los Angeles district attorney files indicate that Hansen had tried to seduce Short but she rebuffed him. Hansen was one of the first serious suspects in the case and he was still a prime suspect as late as the 1951 DA's investigation and grand jury inquest. Hansen was linked to three other suspects in the case, each of whom was a medical doctor: Dr. Patrick S. O’Reilly, Dr. M. M. Schwartz, and Dr. Arthur McGinnis Faught.<ref name=autogenerated1>[http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news2/article.php?storyid=4 Black Dahlia - News 2]</ref>

Hansen died of natural causes in 1964. No charges were ever brought against him. He had no criminal record and no known history of violence. Popular accounts of the Black Dahlia case often portray Hansen as having connections to [[organized crime]], but there is no evidence of this.

===George Hodel===
Dr. [[George Hill Hodel|George Hill Hodel, Jr.]] came under police scrutiny in October 1949, when his 14-year-old daughter, Tamar, accused him of [[child molestation|molesting]] her. Three witnesses testified at his trial that they were present in the room and saw him having sex with Tamar. Another witness, who had previously admitted that she had participated in sex acts with Tamar, recanted and refused to testify. Hodel was [[acquittal|acquitted]] of the charges in December 1949.<ref>Nelson, Mark; Sarah Hudson Bayliss (2006). ''Exquisite Corpse: Surrealism and the Black Dahlia Murder.'' New York: Bulfinch Press. Pg 26. ISBN 0-8212-5819-2</ref> The molestation case led the LAPD to include Hodel, a physician specializing in public health and [[sexually transmitted disease]]s, among its many suspects in the Dahlia case. Authorities put Hodel under surveillance from February 18 to March 27, 1950, including the installation of two microphones in his home, monitored by over 18 detectives, to ascertain whether he could be implicated in the murder. In the surviving transcripts, Dr. Hodel is heard making highly incriminating statements.
<blockquote>Supposin' I did kill the Black Dahlia. They couldn't prove it now. They can't talk to my secretary anymore because she's dead.... They thought there was something fishy. Anyway, now they may have figured it out. Killed her. Maybe I did kill my secretary.... - George Hodel. February 18, 1950</blockquote>

The secretary referred to was Ruth Spaulding, who died from an overdose. Hodel was investigated by the LAPD in 1945 for her suspected murder. He was present when Spaulding died and had burnt some of her papers before police were called. The case was dropped owing to lack of evidence, but documents were later found that indicated Spaulding may have been about to make public that Hodel was intentionally misdiagnosing patients and billing them for laboratory tests, medical treatment, and prescriptions not needed. Hodel's son, former LAPD homicide detective Steve Hodel, believes Elizabeth Short may have been one of his father's patients.

In the final report to the grand jury, dated February 20, 1951, Lt. Frank Jemison of the [[Los Angeles County, California|Los Angeles County]] district attorney's office wrote:
<blockquote>Doctor George Hodel, M.D. [[John Sowden House|5121 Fountain [Franklin] Avenue]], at the time of this murder had a clinic at East First Street near [[Alameda, California|Alameda]]. Lillian DeNorak [Lenorak] who lived with this doctor said he spent some time around the [[Millennium Biltmore Hotel|Biltmore Hotel]] and identified the photo of victim Short as a photo of one of the doctor's girl friends. Tamar Hodel, fifteen-year-old daughter, stated that her mother, Dorothy Hodel, has told her that her father had been out all night on a party the night of the murder and said, "They’ll never be able to prove I did that murder." Two microphones were placed in this suspect's home (see the log and recordings made over approximately three weeks time which tend to prove his innocence.<ref>[http://www.lmharnisch.com/recordings/record001.html Heaven Is HERE! Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia. Dr. George Hodel Transcripts]</ref> See statement of Dorothy Hodel,<ref>[http://www.lmharnisch.com/recordings/dhodel001.html Interrogation of Dorothy Harvey Hodel]</ref> former wife). Informant Lillian DeNorak [Lenorak] has been committed to the [[Camarillo State Mental Hospital|State Mental Institution]] at [[Camarillo, California|Camarillo]]. Joe Barrett, a roomer at the Hodel residence cooperated as an informant. A photograph of the suspect in the nude with a nude identified colored model was secured from his personal effects. Undersigned identified this model as Mattie Comfort, 3423½ South Arlington, Republic 4953. She said that she was with Doctor Hodel sometime prior to the murder and that she knew nothing about his being associated with the victim. Rudolph Walthers, known to have been acquainted with victim and also with suspect Hodel, claimed he had not seen victim in the presence of Hodel and did not believe that the doctor had ever met the victim. The following acquaintances of Hodel were questioned and none were able to connect the suspect with murder: Fred Sexton, 1020 White Knoll Drive; Nita Moladero, 1617½ North Normandy [Normandie]; Ellen Taylor 5121 Fountain Avenue; Finlay Thomas, 616½ South Normandy [Normandie]; Mildred B. Colby, 4029 Vista Del Monte Street, Sherman Oaks, this witness was a girlfriend of Charles Smith, abortionist friend of Hodel, Turin Gilkey, 1025 North Wilcox; Irene Summerset, 1236¼ North Edgemont; Norman Beckett, 1025 North Wilcox; Ethel Kane, 1033 North Wilcox; Annette Chase, 1039 North Wilcox; Dorothy Royer, 1636 North Beverly Glenn. See supplemental reports, long sheets and hear recordings, all of which tend to eliminate this suspect.</blockquote>

The report, from which the above excerpt was taken, was submitted at the completion of the D.A.'s investigation of George Hodel and at least 21 other suspects.

In 2003, George Hodel's son, former LAPD homicide detective Steve Hodel, published a book, ''Black Dahlia Avenger; A Genius for Murder'' ISBN 1-55970-664-3, claiming his father, who died in 1991, had in fact committed the Black Dahlia murder as well as a host of unsolved murders over the better part of two decades. Steve Hodel says he came up with the idea when he saw two pictures in his dead father's photo album that he claims resemble Short, although Short's family insists they are not of her and many other observers have failed to see the resemblance. Since beginning his investigation, Steve has located and identified one of the photographic subjects as a former friend of George Hodel. The other photograph remains unidentified.<ref name=LAWeekly/> Steve Hodel claims he was unaware at the time that his father had been a suspect in the case, although his sister Tamar was friends with Janice Knowlton, author of her own book, ''Daddy Was The Black Dahlia Killer'', and case documents make it clear that Steve's parents and many of their associates knew the senior Hodel was a suspect. After reviewing the information presented in Steve Hodel's book, Head Deputy D.A. Stephen Kay proclaimed the case solved, but others have noted that Kay, who has since retired, formed this conclusion by treating Steve Hodel's many disputed assertions as established fact. Detective Brian Carr, the LAPD officer in charge of the Black Dahlia case at the time of Steve Hodel's briefing, said in a televised interview that he was baffled by Kay's response, adding that if he ever took a case as weak as Steve Hodel's to a prosecutor he would be "laughed out of the office." In a September 2006 television interview with ''[[Cold Case Files]]'' host [[Bill Kurtis]], Carr added, "I don't have the time to either prove or disprove Hodel's investigation. I am too busy working on active cases." In his most recent book, ''Most Evil: Avenger, Zodiac, and the Further Serial Murders of Dr. George Hill Hodel'' ISBN 978-0-525-95132-2, Steve Hodel, with the aid of Ralph Pezzullo, has also claimed that George Hodel was responsible for numerous other high profile murders, including the [[Zodiac Killer]].

Author [[James Ellroy]] endorsed Steve Hodel's theory in the [[foreword]] to the paperback version of Hodel's book. {{Asof|2006|November}}, however, Ellroy has since refused to discuss theories in the case and says he has no idea who the killer was and will never again talk about the Black Dahlia publicly.

Steve Hodel maintains a website [http://www.stevehodel.com/] (date retrieved June 12, 2013) wherein he continues to update the case with additional discovered information.

===George Knowlton===
Little reliable information is available on George Knowlton, except that he lived in the Los Angeles area at the time of the Black Dahlia murder and died in an automobile accident in 1962. In the early 1990s, George Knowlton's daughter Janice began claiming that she had witnessed her father murdering Elizabeth Short, a claim she based largely on "[[recovered memory therapy|recovered memories]]" that surfaced during [[psychotherapy|therapy]]. The ''[[Los Angeles Times]]'' said in 1991:

<blockquote>Los Angeles Police Detective John P. St. John, one of the investigators who had been assigned to the case, said he has talked to Knowlton and does not believe there is a connection between the Black Dahlia murder and her father. "We have a lot of people offering up their fathers and various relatives as the Black Dahlia killer," said St. John, better known as [[Jigsaw John]]. "The things that she is saying are not consistent with the facts of the case."</blockquote>

Nevertheless, the Westminster Police Department took her claims seriously enough to dig up the grounds around her childhood home, looking for evidence. They found nothing to tie George Knowlton to the crime. In 1995, Janice Knowlton created a subgenre as the first person to publish a book claiming that his or her own father committed the Black Dahlia murder. The book was written with veteran crime writer [[Michael Newton (author)|Michael Newton]]. In the book Knowlton, a former professional singer and owner of a [[public relations]] company, alleged that her father had been having an affair with Elizabeth Short and that Short was staying in a makeshift bedroom in their garage, where she suffered a [[miscarriage]]. Knowlton said she was later forced to accompany her father when he disposed of the body. Knowlton claimed that a former member of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department told her that her father was considered a suspect in the case by that agency, but this claim is unsupported by the public documents that have been released in the case. She claimed the same source told her that future LAPD chief and [[California]] politician [[Edward M. Davis|Ed Davis]] and Los Angeles County District Attorney Buron Fitts were suspects in the murder as well. Janice Knowlton died of an [[drug overdose|overdose]] of [[prescription drug]]s in 2004 in what was deemed a [[suicide]] by the [[Orange County, California]], [[coroner]]'s office.

In a side note to her accusations against her father, Janice Knowlton, who was a frequent contributor as {{cite web| url=http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&q=jgk61+&qt_s=Search |title=jgk61}} to various online forums wherein the Black Dahlia case was discussed, posted an article<ref>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.news-media/msg/520d0ca8b1f82d31?hl=en</ref> to a [[Usenet]] group in August 1998 in which she names Dr. George Hodel (see above) as a suspect in the case. Knowlton's sister has since stated on [[amazon.com]]'s web page for her sister's book, ''Daddy Was The Black Dahlia Killer'', that after publication of Knowlton's book, Tamar Hodel, daughter of George Hodel and sister of Steve Hodel, contacted Knowlton and the two women remained "email pals for several years."

Knowlton also made claims prefiguring those of ''Black Dahlia Files'' author Donald Wolfe. In 1999, she claimed in various public forums that Norman Chandler participated in a coverup of the murder. Knowlton claimed that on Halloween 1946 she was sold at the age of nine as a [[child prostitute]] to a [[Pasadena, California|Pasadena]] [[Satanism|Satanic]] sex [[cult]].<ref>''Daddy Was The Black Dahlia Killer'', page 128</ref> She frequently alleged that she was sold as a child prostitute to a long list of dead movie stars and other notables, including [[Norman Chandler]], [[Gene Autry]] (whose name she continually misspelled as Autrey), [[Arthur Freed]], and [[Walt Disney]]. Knowlton became so abusive in her Usenet posts<ref>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.true-crime/browse_thread/thread/8697985d89f9cf0d/6597d7598ac16723?lnk=st&q=jgk61+pacbell&rnum=2#6597d7598ac16723Usenet</ref> that Pacbell canceled her account in 1999.

===Robert M. "Red" Manley===
The last person seen with Elizabeth Short before her disappearance, Manley was the LAPD's top suspect in the first few days after the killing. After two [[polygraph]] tests and a sworn alibi, Manley was set free. He also identified Short's handbag purse and one of her shoes after they were discovered in a trashcan on January 25, 1947, several miles from the murder scene.<ref>[http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/dahlia/new_10.html The Black Dahlia Murder, aka Elizabeth Short - The Crime library]</ref> Manley, who had been discharged from the army for mental disability, subsequently suffered a series of [[nervous breakdown]]s and claimed to be [[auditory hallucination|hearing voices]]. As a result, he was committed to [[Patton State Hospital]] by his wife in 1954. He died on January 16, 1986. The coroner attributed his death to an accidental fall.<ref>[http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/dahlia/new_11.html Black Dahlia Murder Suspects - Beth Short Murder - The Crime library]</ref>

===Patrick S. O'Reilly===
According to Los Angeles district attorney files, Dr. Patrick O’Reilly was a medical doctor who knew Short through nightclub owner Mark Hansen. According to the files, at the time of the murder O’Reilly was a good friend of Hansen and frequented Hansen's nightclub. Files also state that O'Reilly "attended sex parties at [[Malibu, California|Malibu]]" with Hansen. O'Reilly had a history of sexually motivated violent crime. He had been convicted of [[assault with a deadly weapon]] for "taking his secretary to a motel and [[Sadomasochism|sadistically]] beating her almost to death apparently for no other reason than to satisfy his sexual desires without intercourse," the files state. Further, the files indicate that O'Reilly's right [[pectoralis major muscle|pectoral]] had been surgically removed, which investigators found similar to the mutilation of Short’s body. The files indicate that O'Reilly had once been married to the daughter of an LAPD captain.<ref name=autogenerated1 />

===Jack Anderson Wilson (a.k.a. Arnold Smith)===
Wilson was a lifelong petty criminal and [[alcoholic]] who was interviewed by author John Gilmore while Gilmore was researching his book ''Severed''. After Wilson's death, Gilmore named Wilson as a suspect owing to his alleged acquaintance with Short. Prior to Wilson's death, however, Gilmore made an entirely different claim to the ''[[Los Angeles Herald-Examiner]]'' in a story appearing January 17, 1982.<ref>[http://lmharnisch.com/herex_820117.html Heaven Is HERE! Author claims to have found 1947 murderer]</ref> While ''Severed'' says that homicide Detective John St. John was about to "close in" on Wilson based on the material Gilmore provided, St. John told the ''Herald-Examiner'' in the same article that he was busy with other killings and would review Gilmore's claims when he got time. As reliable sources of information about the case, such as the FBI files and portions of the Los Angeles district attorney files, have become publicly available, statements about Short and the murder attributed to Wilson in ''Severed'' and supposedly tying him to the crime have not been borne out as accurate. ''Severed'' also claims Wilson was involved in the murder of [[Georgette Bauerdorf]]. ''Severed'' and many other sources based on ''Severed'' erroneously claim that Short and Bauerdorf knew each other in Los Angeles, supposedly because they were both hostesses at the same nightclub. In reality, by the time Short arrived in Los Angeles in 1946, Bauerdorf had been dead for two years and the nightclub had been closed for a year. Wilson was never a suspect until Gilmore brought him to the attention of authorities.

Wilson figures in Donald Wolfe's book ''The Mob, The Mogul, And The Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles''. Wolfe hypothesizes that Wilson was present at Short's murder and claims a connection between Wilson and gangster [[Bugsy Siegel]] through some small-time gangsters Wilson supposedly associated with. He was also part of the military.

==Female suspects==
Although the vast majority of suspects in the case were male, authorities did not rule out the possibility of a female killer. One theory held that, because Short had checked her baggage, including her clothing and cosmetics, a week before she died, she must have been staying with another woman (who presumably would have lent Short the essentials) during the intervening time. Another theory was that the assailant bisected Short's body because he or she was not strong enough to move it in one piece. One of the first people to confess to the murder was a [[Women's Army Corps|WAC]] sergeant stationed in San Diego. Authorities took the confession seriously enough to investigate and found it groundless.<ref>[http://blackdahlia.info/modules/news2/article.php?storyid=2 Black Dahlia - News 2]</ref> Another suspect is referred to simply as "Queer Woman Surgeon" in the Los Angeles district attorney's files on the case. Newspaper stories at the time implied that Short was a [[lesbian]] or [[bisexual]], but the district attorney files state bluntly that Short "had no use for queers."

==Famous suspects==

===Woody Guthrie===
[[folk music|Folk singer]] [[Woody Guthrie]] was one of the many suspects in the murder, according to the Los Angeles County district attorney's files and ''Ramblin' Man: The Life and Times of Woody Guthrie'' written by Ed Cray and published in 2004 by [[W.W. Norton]]. According to Cray, [[Woody Guthrie|Guthrie]] drew police attention because of some sexually explicit letters and [[Tabloid (newspaper format)|tabloid]] clippings he sent to a [[Northern California]] woman whom he was allegedly stalking. The mailings disturbed the recipient so much that she showed them to her sister in Los Angeles, who contacted the police. Guthrie was quickly cleared of involvement in the murder, but various authorities attempted to prosecute him, with minor success, on charges related to sending prohibited materials through the mail.

===Orson Welles===
In her 1999 book, Mary Pacios, a former neighbor of the Short family in [[Medford, Massachusetts]], suggested filmmaker [[Orson Welles]] as a suspect.<ref>[http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/08/16/dahlia Salon.com Books | Citizen Killer?]</ref> Pacios bases this theory on such factors as Welles's volatile temperament and his creation of mannequins three months before Short's death that supposedly featured lacerations virtually identical to those inflicted on Short. The mannequins were used in the "[[house of mirrors]]" set for ''[[The Lady From Shanghai]]'', a film Welles was making with his ex-wife [[Rita Hayworth]] around the time of the murder. The scenes containing the set were deleted from the film by [[Harry Cohn]]. In one of Short's last letters home, her older sister Virginia claimed she had written that a movie director was going to give her a screen test.

Pacios also cites Welles' familiarity with the site where the body was found and the [[Magic (illusion)|magic act]] he performed to entertain soldiers during [[World War II]]. She believes that the bisection of the body was part of the killer's signature and an acting out of the perpetrator's obsession. Welles applied for his [[passport]] on January 24, 1947, the same day the killer mailed a packet to Los Angeles newspapers. Welles left the country for an extended stay in Europe 10 months after the murder without completing the editing of ''[[Macbeth (1948 film)|Macbeth]]'', the film he was both directing and starring in. Despite persistent attempts by [[Republic Pictures]] to get him to return to complete the film, he refused. According to Pacios, witnesses she had interviewed state that Welles and the victim both frequented Brittingham's restaurant in Los Angeles during the same time period and waitresses believed Short was going out with someone at [[Columbia Pictures]]. Welles was never a suspect in the investigation.

=== Bugsy Siegel ===
[[New York City|New York]] [[Jewish American|Jewish]] [[mobster]] [[Benjamin Siegel|Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel]] was an apparent suspect in the murder investigation of Short.<ref>http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jan/17/entertainment/et-book17</ref> Although, the reason why he was a suspect is unclear, especially sense Siegel was more concerned with the [[Flamingo Las Vegas|Flamingo Hotel and Casino]] at the time and he was known to be a "lady's man" not a "lady's killer."
Also, Siegel was involved with [[Hollywood]] actress and [[Genovese crime family|mob]] messenger [[Virginia Hill]].
Still, according to Don Wolfe's book ''The Black Dahlia Files: The Mob, the Mogul, and the Murder That Transfixed Los Angeles,'',<ref>http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Dahlia-Files-Transfixed/dp/0060582502</ref> Siegel was the actual murderer (although he was most likely wrong).

==References==
{{Reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Black Dahlia Suspects}}
[[Category:1947 murders in the United States]]
[[Category:Murder in California]]
[[Category:Lists of suspected criminals]]
[[Category:Black Dahlia case|Suspects]]

My Youth Romantic Comedy Is Wrong, as I Expected

2015-06-02T01:54:26Z

Die-yng: /* Others */

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| name = My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU
| image = [[File:My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU cover.jpg|230px]]
| caption = Cover of the first light novel volume
| ja_kanji = やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。
| ja_romaji = Yahari Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru.
| genre = [[Romantic comedy film|Romantic Comedy]], [[Slice of Life]]<ref name="Official Sentai"/>
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Print
| type = light novel
| author = Wataru Watari
| illustrator = Ponkan8
| publisher = [[Shogakukan]]
| demographic = Male
| imprint = [[Gagaga Bunko]]
| first = March 18, 2011
| last =
| volumes = 10 + 3 short story collections{{update after|2015|6|18|reason=vol 11}}
| volume_list = #Light novel
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Print
| type = manga
| title = Yahari Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru. -Monologue-
| author = Rechi Kazuki
| publisher = [[Square Enix]]
| demographic = ''[[Seinen manga|Seinen]]''
| magazine = Big Gangan
| first = September 25, 2012
| last =
| volumes = 6
| volume_list =
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Print
| type = manga
| title = Yahari Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru. @comic
| author = Naomichi Io
| publisher = Shogakukan
| demographic = ''Seinen''
| magazine = [[Monthly Sunday Gene-X]]
| first = December 19, 2012
| last =
| volumes = 4
| volume_list =
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Print
| type = manga
| title = Yahari 4-koma demo Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa machigatteiru.
| author = Yūta Taneda
| publisher = [[Ichijinsha]]
| demographic = ''Seinen''
| magazine = Manga 4-koma Palette
| first = March 22, 2013
| last =
| volumes = 1
| volume_list =
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Video
| title = My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU
| type = TV series
| director = Ai Yoshimura
| writer = Shōtarō Suga
| music = monaca
| studio = [[Brain's Base]]
| licensor = {{English anime licensee
| AUS = [[Madman Entertainment]]
| NA = [[Section23 Films#Sentai Filmworks|Sentai Filmworks]]
}}
| network = [[Tokyo Broadcasting System|TBS]], [[Mainichi Broadcasting System|MBS]], [[Chubu-Nippon Broadcasting|CBC]], [[BS-TBS]]
| first = April 4, 2013
| last = June 27, 2013
| episodes = 12 + 1 Extra
| episode_list = List of My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU episodes (season 1)
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Video
| type = ova
| title =
| director =
| producer =
| writer = Wataru Watari
| music =
| studio = Brain's Base
| licensee =
| released = September 19, 2013
| runtime =
| episode_list =
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Game
| title = Yahari Game demo Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru.
| ja_kanji = やはりゲームでも俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。
| developer = [[5pb.]]
| publisher = 5pb.
| genre =
| ratings =
| platforms = [[PlayStation Vita]]
| released = {{vgrelease|JP=September 19, 2013}}
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Video
| title = My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU TOO!
| type = TV series
| director = Kei Oikawa
| writer = Shōtarō Suga
| music = monaca
| studio = [[Feel (company)|Feel]]
| licensor = {{English anime licensee
| NA = Sentai Filmworks
}}
| network = TBS, MBS, CBC, [[Tulip Television|TUT]], BS-TBS
| first = April 2, 2015
| last =
| episodes = 13
| episode_list = List of My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU episodes (season 2)
}}
{{Infobox animanga/Footer}}
'''''My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU''''', known in Japan as {{Nihongo|'''''My Youth Romantic Comedy Is Wrong As I Expected.'''''|やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。|''Yahari Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru.''|lead=yes}}, also known in the short forms {{nihongo|'''''Hamachi'''''|はまち}} and {{nihongo|'''''OreGairu'''''|俺ガイル}},<ref>{{cite web|url=http://d.hatena.ne.jp/watariwataru/20110215/1297794528|script-title=ja:『やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。』略称を考えるコーナー|language=Japanese|publisher=Wataru Watari|date=2011-02-15|accessdate=2013-01-10}}</ref> is a Japanese [[light novel]] series written by Wataru Watari and illustrated by Ponkan8.

There are three ongoing manga adaptations and two [[anthology]] volumes. It has been adapted into an [[anime]] television series, which aired between April 4 and June 27, 2013 and was followed by second season which began airing on April 2, 2015. A video game, titled ''Yahari Game demo Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru.'' and published by [[5pb.]], for the [[PlayStation Vita]] was released on September 19, 2013.

==Plot==
The story follows two loners, the pragmatic Hachiman Hikigaya and beautiful Yukino Yukinoshita, who despite their varying personalities and ideals, offer help and advice to others as part of their school's Service Club, assisted by the cheerful and friendly Yui Yuigahama. It largely depicts various social situations faced by teens in a high school setting and the psychology driving their interactions.

==Characters==

===Main characters===
The main characters in the series are members of the school's service club, which is run by Yukino.

;{{Nihongo|Hachiman Hikigaya|比企谷八幡|Hikigaya Hachiman}}{{anchor|Hachiman Hikigaya}}
:{{voiced by|[[Takuya Eguchi]]}}
:The [[viewpoint character]] of the light novels, Hachiman is a student in class 2F of Sōbu High School who is isolated, friendless and pragmatic to a fault. His most prominent feature is his set of "dead fish-eyes". He firmly believes that "youth" is simply an illusion created by hypocrites, for hypocrites, born from the ashes of past failures. In this state of apparent corruption, he is coerced into joining the Service Club by his futures advisor in the hopes that exposing him to the world will change his personality, and ultimately make him a "better person". Hachiman believes that he is insignificant and thus is willing to take on blames in order to keep everyone else happy. He is affectionately called "Hikki" by Yui. Hayato's clique wrongly address him as "Hikitani".

:On the first day of high school, he was involved in a car accident while trying to save Yui's dog, which resulted in a 3 week hospital stay. He thinks that Yui's feelings for him are due to guilt, and thus indirectly rejected Yui, thinking that he would cause trouble for her. He also distanced himself from Yukino after realizing that the car which rammed into him belonged to Yukino. In both cases, they make amends with him once said misunderstandings are cleared.

;{{Nihongo|Yukino Yukinoshita|雪ノ下雪乃|Yukinoshita Yukino}}{{anchor|Yukino Yukinoshita}}
:{{voiced by|[[Saori Hayami]]}}
:Yukino is a student in class 2J and the leader of the service club, of which she is the sole member until Hachiman joins. She is from a wealthy family, smart, beautiful, and is nicknamed the "Ice-cold Beauty" for her icy demeanor. Due to her popularity with boys, she is envied by most girls, and is disgusted by their attitude to undermine her instead of improving themselves, thus she has few friends. She has a twisted sense of "noblesse oblige", and believes that it is the duty of the exceptional (in other words, herself) to help the "lost lambs" of the world. Her personality often leads her to be disgusted at the naivete of others, particularly Yui's, and she does not hesitate to show it. Despite this, Yui still affectionately refers to her "Yukinon". She recognizes Hachiman from the car accident, but lied about it when Hachiman joined the service club. After the cultural festival, while she still does not recognize Hachiman as a friend, she recognizes him as an acquaintance.

;{{nihongo|Yui Yuigahama|由比ヶ浜結衣|Yuigahama Yui}}{{anchor|Yui Yuigahama}}
:{{voiced by|[[Nao Tōyama]]}}
:Yui is Hachiman's classmate. She is a cheerful, outgoing girl who becomes the service club's first "customer", asking them to help her bake cookies for "a certain someone". Her problems lie not with her personality, but with her inability to express herself due to fear in losing friends, and thus admired Yukino and Hachiman who are able to express their true feelings. She believes that talent is inborn, and often aspired to be like others until Yukino changed her way of thinking. Following her experience with the Service Club, Yui begins to attend Service Club sessions after school as well, despite Yukino's objections early on. In class, Yui is a member of Hayato's clique but has no say in matters as she is often overwhelmed by Yumiko. She has been holding feelings towards Hachiman ever since he saved her dog on their first day of high school.

===Class 2F===
;{{Nihongo|Saika Totsuka|戸塚彩加|Totsuka Saika}}{{anchor|Saika Totsuka}}
:{{voiced by|[[Mikako Komatsu]]}}
:Saika is the president of the tennis club who has a [[Androgyny|androgynous appearance]], but prefers others to not mistake his gender. He is called "The Prince" by his female classmates. On their first meeting, Saika asks help from Hachiman to join the tennis club, which was brushed off by Yukino. Saika then asked the service club to help him improve his tennis skills. He eventually became one of the few people in class 2F who would talk to Hachiman on a first name basis, and often hangs out with Hachiman.

;{{Nihongo|Hayato Hayama|葉山隼人|Hayama Hayato}}{{anchor|Hayato Hayama}}
:{{voiced by|[[Takashi Kondō]]}}
:Hayato is Yukino's childhood friend who is a central figure in class 2F and the ace of the football club. He is extremely kind to other people, including Hachiman, and often offers his help to others. However, Hayama claims that he can never forge a good relationship with Hachiman as despite understanding his acts of social suicide to protect everyone, he does not agree with him. He and Yukino have some strain to their relationship, stemming from an incident in the past in which Yukino was being ostracized or bullied, and Hayato failed to protect her. So far his attempts to mend his relationship with Yukino failed.

;{{Nihongo|Yumiko Miura|三浦優美子|Miura Yumiko}}{{anchor|Yumiko Miura}}
:{{voiced by|[[Marina Inoue]]}}
:Yumiko is a popular girl from class 2F with a pompous personality. She is the main female figure in Hayato's clique. Due to her popularity, she has no trouble making friends and thus has little to no understanding towards people who have social troubles. She brushes off anything she doesn't understand as "making no sense".

;{{Nihongo|Hina Ebina|海老名姫菜|Ebina Hina}}{{anchor|Hina Ebina}}
:{{voiced by|[[Nozomi Sasaki (voice actress)|Nozomi Sasaki]]}}
:Hina is a [[fujoshi]] from class 2F who is in Hayato's clique. She has a habit of preaching about her hobby whenever she is excited and thus is generally avoided by her male classmates. Hina knows of Kakeru's feelings towards her during the school excursion but does not want to engage in a relationship at the current time due to her lack of confidence, and thus requested help from Hachiman to help maintain the status quo, which Hachiman succeeded in.

;{{Nihongo|Saki Kawasaki|川崎沙希|Kawasaki Saki}}{{anchor|Saki Kawasaki}}
:{{voiced by|[[Ami Koshimizu]]}}
:Saki is Hachiman's classmate who seems like a delinquent, but wants to make friends deep down. She cares deeply for her brother as she hid her name and age to work in night-shift part-time jobs in order to pay school fees and reduce her family's load. After her brother asked help from the service club, the service club eventually followed her to her workplace and found out her motives behind working night-shifts, she stopped working after the service club suggested her to aim for a scholarship instead.

;{{Nihongo|Kakeru Tobe|戸部翔|Tobe Kakeru}}{{anchor|Kakeru Tobe}}
:{{voiced by|[[Chado Horii]]}}
:Kakeru is a member of Hayato's clique. He is in the football club. He has feelings for Hina and is the only guy in class who supported Hina's script for the cultural festival. During the school excursion, he intends to confess to Hina, and therefore requested help from the service club. However, as Hachiman understands Hina's current stance to not be in a relationship, Hachiman thinks that what's broken can't be mend and thus confessed to Hina ahead of Kakeru. Hina's rejection to Hachiman successfully stopped Kakeru from confessing to Hina and thus maintained the status quo.

;{{Nihongo|Yamato|大和|Yamato}}{{anchor|Yamato}}
:{{voiced by|[[Yoshihisa Kawahara]]}}
:Yamato is a member of Hayato's clique. He is in the rugby club.

;{{Nihongo|Ōoka|大岡|Ōoka}}{{anchor|Ōoka}}
:{{voiced by|[[Minoru Shiraishi]]}}
:Ōoka is a member of Hayato's clique. He is in the baseball club.

;{{Nihongo|Minami Sagami|相模南|Sagami Minami}}{{anchor|Minami Sagami}}
:{{voiced by|[[Minako Kotobuki]]}}
:Minami is the leader of the second most influential clique in class 2F, and holds a grudge towards Yui, who she was friendly with in their first high school year, for being in the superior clique. She volunteered to be event organizer for the cultural festival in order to promote her worth without the actual ability to do such job, and thus requested help from the service club. As such, Yukino took up the role of assistant event organizer and claimed the spotlight in making the cultural festival a successful one, which in turn made Minami depressed about her own uselessness and refused to host the closing ceremony. However, as Hachiman's fierce scolding has successfully turned himself into the scapegoat and shifted the blame away from Minami, she attended the closing ceremony and ended the cultural festival on a high note.

===Others===
;{{Nihongo|Shizuka Hiratsuka|平塚静|Hiratsuka Shizuka}}{{anchor|Shizuka Hiratsuka}}
:{{voiced by|[[Ryōka Yuzuki]]}}
:Shizuka is Hachiman's teacher, a language teacher who serves as his futures advisor/counselor and the consultant for the service club. She is aware of Hachiman's supposed "problems", and takes steps to ensure he is freed from them, her first move being to force him into joining the Service Club. However, she appears to have some quirks of her own: she is a young smoker, she is very sensitive about her age and single status, and she is often prone to quoting or copying scenes from popular [[shōnen manga]]. She also never remembers to knock before entering the Service Club's classroom, much to Yukino's chagrin. After the cultural festival incident, she tells Hachiman that helping others should not be a reason for Hachiman to hurt himself, as there are others who would feel pain seeing Hachiman hurt.

;{{Nihongo|Komachi Hikigaya|比企谷小町|Hikigaya Komachi}}{{anchor|Komachi Hikigaya}}
:{{voiced by|[[Aoi Yūki]]}}
:Komachi is Hachiman's younger sister who, different from her brother, is cheerful and lively, and is a member of the student council in her school. She understands that her brother has a corrupted personality but still cares for and relies on him regardless. While attached to her brother, she shows cleverness in trying to pair up Hachiman with Yukino or Yui.

;{{Nihongo|Yoshiteru Zaimokuza|材木座義輝|Zaimokuza Yoshiteru}}{{anchor|Yoshiteru Zaimokuza}}
:{{voiced by|[[Nobuyuki Hiyama]]}}
:Yoshiteru is a student from class 2C who suffers from adolescent delusions. He sees Hachiman as a friend after being paired up with him during physical education lessons. While he is annoying, he has a group of [[otaku]] friends he's on good terms with. He aims to be a light novel writer.

;{{Nihongo|Haruno Yukinoshita|雪ノ下陽乃|Yukinoshita Haruno}}{{anchor|Haruno Yukinoshita}}
:{{voiced by|[[Mai Nakahara]]}}
:Haruno is Yukino's elder sister who is even more outstanding than Yukino. However, unlike Yukino, she shows a good attitude towards other people, even if she has to lie about her true feelings most of the time. While Yukino holds strong animosity towards her, Haruno sees her sister who's constantly trying to overtake her as cute, or at least she claims that's how she sees her. In reality her actions can often be interpreted as holding her sister back and make her appear in a negative light. She is a former student of Sōbu High School. She acknowledges Hachiman's perceptiveness and often playfully teases him.

;{{Nihongo|Taishi Kawasaki|川崎大志|Kawasaki Taishi}}{{anchor|Taishi Kawasaki}}
:{{voiced by|[[Ayumu Murase]]}}
:Taishi is Saki's little brother and Komachi's classmate. He is on good terms with Komachi and is worried about Saki coming home late every night.

;{{Nihongo|Rumi Tsurumi|鶴見留美|Tsurumi Rumi}}{{anchor|Rumi Tsurumi}}
:{{voiced by|[[Sumire Morohoshi]]}}
:Rumi is a lonely primary school student who is openly despised by her peers. Hayato at first tried to resolve the situation through talking to her in front of her classmates, which instead attracted more hateful attention to her. After much discussion, Hachiman and company decided that the only way out is to destroy the trust between her peers, through having Hayato and Kakeru acting as bullies threatening Rumi's group-mates during treasure hunt and exposing their selfish nature to each other, thus preventing further organized acts of teasing on Rumi. However, in exchange, she would hardly have any friends after this.

;{{Nihongo|Meguri Shiromeguri|城廻めぐり|Shiromeguri Meguri}}{{anchor|Meguri Shiromeguri}}
:{{voiced by|[[Azumi Asakura]]}}
:Meguri is a third year student and the former president of Sōbu High School's student council. Although she is not a reliable leader herself, her personality has brought her immense support from the councilors and thus she is able to unite the student council.

;{{Nihongo|Iroha Isshiki|一色いろは|Isshiki Iroha}}{{anchor|Iroha Isshiki}}
:{{voiced by|[[Ayane Sakura]]}}
:Iroha is a first year student who manages the football team. As she was recommended as a candidate for the student council president in a prank, out of her dislike of the role, she filed a request to the Service Club in order to not get elected and yet not lose in an embarrassing fashion. She eventually accepts her role of being the student council president after Hachiman managed to convince her.

;{{Nihongo|Kaori Orimoto|折本かおり|Orimoto Kaori}}{{anchor|Kaori Orimoto}}
:{{voiced by|[[Haruka Tomatsu]]}}
:Kaori is Hachiman's classmate in middle school, whom he confessed to in the past. She is interested in getting to know Hayato. She attends Kaihin General High School.

;{{Nihongo|Chika Nakamachi|仲町千佳|Nakamachi Chika}}{{anchor|Chika Nakamachi}}
:{{voiced by|[[Saki Fujita]]}}
:Chika is Kaori's friend and schoolmate at Kaihin General.

;{{Nihongo|Tamanawa|玉縄|}}{{anchor|Tamanawa}}
:{{voiced by|[[Satoshi Hino]]}}
:Tamanawa is Kaihin High School's student council president.

==Media==

===Light novel===
The light novel series is written by Wataru Watari and illustrated by Ponkan8. It is being published by ''[[Shogakukan]]'' under the ''[[Gagaga Bunko]]'' imprint. The first volume was published on March 18, 2011,<ref name="ln1" /> and the latest, tenth - on November 18, 2014.<ref name=ln10 /> An eleventh volume is scheduled to be published on June 18, 2015<ref name=ln11 />{{update after|2015|6|18}}

Volumes 3, 4, 7 and 8 were published simultaneously with limited special editions. The special editions of the 3rd and 7th volumes were bundled with drama CDs<ref name="ln3_le" /><ref name="ln7_le" /> and those of the 4th and 8th volumes – with an art books by Ponkan8 and guest illustrators.<ref name="ln4_le" /><ref name="ln8_le" /> A set of the first 7 volumes was released on March 19, 2013.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00BOH6TN0|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。文庫 1-7巻セット (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref> A collection of short stories, volume 7.5, was published on August 20, 2013.<ref name=ln7.5 /> Three additional short volumes, 6.25, 6.50 and 6.75 were bundled with the limited editions of the 1st, 3rd and 5th DVD and BD volumes respectively of the anime series,<ref name=bd1>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00CA0C4YS|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。第1巻 (初回限定版)(渡航書き下ろし文庫小説152P・サントラCD同梱) [Blu-ray] (2013)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-08-20}}</ref><ref name=bd3>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00CBDFTW8|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。第3巻 (初回限定版) [Blu-ray]|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-08-20}}</ref><ref name=bd5>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00CBDFUW2|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。第5巻 (初回限定版) [Blu-ray]|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-08-20}}</ref> and were released as single volume, numbered 6.5, on July 22, 2014.<ref name=ln6.5_re /> A limited special edition of it was bundled with a drama CD.<ref name=ln6.5_le /> Another short story collection volume, labeled 10.5, was released on March 18, 2015.<ref name=ln10.5 />

{{Graphic novel list/header
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{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 1
| RelDate = March 18, 2011<ref name="ln1">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094512624|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451262-5
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 2
| RelDate = July 20, 2011<ref name="ln2">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094512861|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。2 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451286-1
| Summary =
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{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 3
| RelDate = November 18, 2011<ref name="ln3_le">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094513078|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。3 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref><ref name="ln3_re">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094513043|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。3 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451304-2 (regular edition) ISBN 978-4-09-451307-3 (limited edition)
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 4
| RelDate = March 16, 2012<ref name="ln4_le">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094513337|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。3 ドラマCD付限定特装版 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref><ref name="ln4_re">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094513329|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。4 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451332-5 (regular edition) ISBN 978-4-09-451333-2 (limited edition)
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 5
| RelDate = July 18, 2012<ref name="ln5">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094513566|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。5 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451356-1
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 6
| RelDate = November 20, 2012<ref name="ln6">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094513809|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。6 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451380-6
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 7
| RelDate = March 19, 2013<ref name="ln7_le">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094514031|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。7 ドラマCD付き限定特装版 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref><ref name="ln7_re">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094514023|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。7 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451402-5 (regular edition) ISBN 978-4-09-451403-2 (limited edition)
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 7.5
| RelDate = August 20, 2013<ref name="ln7.5">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094514341|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。7.5 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-07-05}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451434-6
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 8
| RelDate = November 19, 2013<ref name="ln8_le">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094514538|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。8 イラスト集付き限定特装版 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-10-19}}</ref><ref name=ln8_re>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094514511|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。8 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-10-19}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451451-3 (regular edition) ISBN 978-4-09-451453-7 (limited edition)
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 9
| RelDate = April 18, 2014<ref name=ln9>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094514821|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。9 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2014-03-25}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451482-7
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 6.5
| RelDate = July 22, 2014<ref name=ln6.5_re>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094515011|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。6.5 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2014-08-21}}</ref><ref name="ln6.5_le">{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/409451502X|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。6.5ドラマCD付き限定特装版 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2014-08-21}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451501-5 (regular edition) ISBN 978-4-09-451502-2 (limited edition)
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 10
| RelDate = November 18, 2014<ref name=ln10>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094515232|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。10 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2014-11-25}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451523-7
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 10.5
| RelDate = March 18, 2015<ref name=ln10.5>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094515429|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。10.5 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2015-03-06}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451542-8
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list
| VolumeNumber = 11
| RelDate = June 18, 2015<ref name=ln11>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4094515585|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。11 (ガガガ文庫)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2015-05-30}}</ref>
| ISBN = 978-4-09-451558-9
| Summary =
}}
{{Graphic novel list/footer}}

=== Drama CDs ===
A drama CD, titled {{Nihongo|''Tatoeba Konna Birthday Song''|たとえばこんなバースデーソング||subtitled with "Birthday Song for you"}}, was released with a special edition of the 3rd light novel on November 18, 2011.<ref name="ln3_le" /> The drama CD contains a [[character song]], sung by Saori Hayami and Nao Tōyama, titled "Bright Generation" and composed by [[Yukari Hashimoto]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://d.hatena.ne.jp/watariwataru/20111108/1320733971|script-title=ja:「やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。」３巻発売－２|language=Japanese|last=Watari|first=Wataru|date=2011-11-17|accessdate=2013-06-09}}</ref> A second drama CD, titled {{Nihongo|''Hikigaya Komachi no Keiryaku''|比企谷小町の計略||subtitled with "His sister's tactics"}}, was sold together with the first one at [[Marvelous AQL]]'s booth at [[Comiket]] 83, held on December 29, 30, and 31, 2012.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://d.hatena.ne.jp/watariwataru/20121224/1356366482|script-title=ja:今明かされるメディアミックスの闇！　ライトノベルがアニメになるまで|language=Japanese|last=Watari|first=Wataru|date=2012-12-24|accessdate=2013-06-13}}</ref>{{citation needed|date=June 2013|reason=need a RS that the first drama CD was included}} A third drama CD, titled {{Nihongo|''Kanojotachi no, We Will Rock You''|彼女たちの、うぃー・うぃる・ろっく・ゆー♡||subtitled with "We will... We will rock "you"!!"}}, was bundled with the special edition of the 7th volume, published on March 19, 2013.<ref name="ln7_le" /> The drama CD contains a character song by Saori Hayami and Nao Tōyama, titled "Rock You!!" and composed and arranged by Yūya Saitō. A fourth drama CD, titled {{nihongo|''Sono Christmas Candle no Akari ga Yureru Toki...''|そのクリスマスキャンドルの灯が揺れる時……。}}, was released with the special edition of volume 6.5 on July 22, 2014.<ref name=ln6.5_le /> The fourth drama CD contains a character song by Saori Hayami and Nao Tōyama, titled {{nihongo|"Kimi to Merry Christmas"|君とMerry Christmas}}.

===Manga===
The first manga adaptation is illustrated by Rechi Kazuki and published by ''[[Square Enix]]'' under the title {{Nihongo|''Yahari Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru. -Monologue-''|やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。－妄言録－}}. Its serialization began in the magazine ''Big Gangan'' on September 25, 2012.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B0093FB2U0|title=ビッグガンガン 2012年 Vol.10 10/24号|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-15}}</ref> As of March 18, 2015, there have been six ''[[tankōbon]]'' published.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4757545819|script-title=ja:やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。-妄言録(モノローグ)-(6) (ビッグガンガンコミックス)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2015-03-22}}</ref> A second series, illustrated by Naomichi Io and titled {{Nihongo|''Yahari Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru. @comic''|やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。＠comic}} began serialization in [[Shogakukan]]'s ''[[Monthly Sunday Gene-X]]'' magazine. The first chapter was published in the magazine's January 2013 edition, released on December 19, 2012.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://books.rakuten.co.jp/item/12130265|title=月刊サンデー GX (ジェネックス) 2013年 01月号 [雑誌]|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Rakuten]]|accessdate=2013-06-15}}</ref> It has been collected into four ''tankōbon'' volumes, published, between May 17, 2013<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4091573495|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。@comic 1 (サンデーGXコミックス)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-15}}</ref> and November 19, 2014<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4091573967|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。@comic 4 (サンデーGXコミックス)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2014-11-25}}</ref> A [[yonkoma|4-panel]] manga series by Yūta Taneda is published by [[Ichijinsha]] under the title {{Nihongo|''Yahari 4-koma demo Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa machigatteiru.''|やはり4コマでも俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。}}. A preview chapter was published in the May 2013 issue of the ''Manga 4-koma Palette'' magazine, released on March 22, 2013,<ref>{{Twitter status|anime_oregairu|314663946453938176|title=Twitter / anime_oregairu: ということで俺ガイル４コマ進出！　種田優太先生による「やはり ...|name=@anime_oregairu|language=Japanese|date=2013-03-23|accessdate=2013-06-15}}</ref> and the first chapter - in the June 2013 issue, on April 22, 2013.<ref>{{Twitter status|anime_oregairu|326213874971967489|title=Twitter / anime_oregairu: まんが4コマぱれっと6月号ゲット！種田優太先生の「やはり4コ ...|name=@anime_oregairu|language=Japanese|date=2013-04-21|accessdate=2013-06-15}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00CGR8HSC|title=まんが4コマKING (キング) 2013年 06月号 [雑誌]|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-15}}</ref> A ''tankōbon'' volume of it was released on June 21, 2014.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4758082030|title=やはり4コマでも俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。(1) (IDコミックス/4コマKINGSぱれっとコミックス)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2014-05-26}}</ref> An [[anthology]] volume by several authors was published by Ichijinsha under their DNA Media Comics imprint on May 25, 2013,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4758007489|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。コミックアンソロジー (DNAメディアコミックス)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-15}}</ref> and a second one, on July 25, 2013.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4758007659|title=やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。コミックアンソロジー VOL.2 (DNAメディアコミックス)|language=Japanese|publisher=[[Amazon.co.jp]]|accessdate=2013-06-15}}</ref>

===Anime===
{{see also|List of My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU episodes (season 1)|List of My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU episodes (season 2)}}

A 12-episode anime television series, directed by Ai Yoshimura and produced by ''[[Brain's Base]]'', aired between April 4 and June 20, 2013,<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-03-08/my-youth-romantic-comedy-is-wrong-as-i-expected-anime-1st-promo-streamed|title={{'}}''My Youth Romantic Comedy Is Wrong as I Expected''{{'}} Anime's 1st Promo Streamed|date=2013-03-08|accessdate=2013-03-20|work=[[Anime News Network]]}}</ref> with an additional anime-original episode with writing by Wataru Watari following the series on June 27, 2013.<ref name="ANN1">{{cite web|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-05-16/my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu-gets-more-anime|title=''My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU'' Gets More Anime|publisher=[[Anime News Network]]|date=2013-05-16|accessdate=2013-05-17}}</ref> The series was simulcast with English subtitles by [[Crunchyroll]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-04-09/crunchyroll-to-stream-my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu-tv-anime|title=Crunchyroll to Stream {{'}}''My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU''{{'}} TV Anime|date=2013-04-09|accessdate=2013-04-09|work=[[Anime News Network]]}}</ref> An [[OVA]] episode on [[Blu-ray Disc]] was bundled with the limited edition of the video game, released on September 19, 2013.<ref name="ANN1" /><ref name="ANN2" /> The opening theme is {{Nihongo|"Yukitoki"|ユキトキ}} by [[Nagi Yanagi]] and the ending is "Hello Alone" by Saori Hayami and Nao Tōyama.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-03-30/my-youth-romantic-comedy-is-wrong-as-i-expected-anime-teaser-posted|title={{'}}''My Youth Romantic Comedy Is Wrong as I Expected''{{'}} Anime's Teaser Posted|date=2013-03-30|accessdate=2013-03-31|work=[[Anime News Network]]}}</ref> The anime has been licensed by [[Section23 Films#Sentai Filmworks|Sentai Filmworks]] in North America and [[Madman Entertainment]] in Australia.<ref name="Official Sentai">{{cite web|url=http://www.sentaifilmworks.com/shows/my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu|title=''My Teen Romantic Comedy ~ SNAFU'' - Sentai Filmworks|publisher=[[Section23 Films#Sentai Filmworks|Sentai Filmworks]]|accessdate=September 25, 2014}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|title=Madman Entertainment Acquisitions From Supanova Pop Culture Expo - Gold Coast|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-04-21/madman-entertainment-acquisitions-from-supanova-pop-culture-expo-gold-coast|publisher=[[Anime News Network]]|date=2013-04-21|accessdate=2013-04-25}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|title=Sentai Filmworks Adds ''My Teen Romantic Comedy Snafu'' TV Anime|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-04-25/sentai-filmworks-adds-my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu-tv-anime|publisher=Anime News Network|date=2013-04-25|accessdate=2013-04-25}}</ref>

A second season was announced by [[Shogakukan]] in 2014.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-04-16/my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu-anime-gets-2nd-season|title=My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU Anime Gets 2nd Season|publisher=[[Anime News Network]]|date=April 16, 2014|accessdate=April 17, 2014}}</ref> The season, titled "Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Come wa Machigatteiru. Zoku", is produced by [[Feel (company)|Studio Feel]] and directed by Kei Oikawa, with character designs by Yuu Shindou and series composition by Shōtarō Suga.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2014-10-16/outbreak-company-oikawa-to-direct-my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu-season-2-at-studio-feel/.80008|title=Outbreak Company's Oikawa to Direct My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU Season 2 at Studio feel.|publisher=[[Anime News Network]]|date=October 16, 2014|accessdate=October 16, 2014}}</ref> It began airing on April 2, 2015. The main opening theme is {{nihongo|"Harumodoki"|春擬き|}} by [[Nagi Yanagi]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-02-22/nagi-yanagi-returns-to-perform-2nd-my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu-season-opening/.85276|title='Nagi Yanagi Returns to Perform 2nd ''My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU'' Season's Opening|publisher=[[Anime News Network]]|date=February 22, 2015|accessdate=April 4, 2015}}</ref> The season's main ending theme is {{nihongo|"Everyday World."|エブリデイワールド|}} by Yukino Yukinoshita ([[Saori Hayami]]) and Yui Yuigahama ([[Nao Tōyama]]).<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-03-09/saori-hayami-nao-toyama-return-to-sing-2nd-my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu-season-ending/.85766|title=Saori Hayami, Nao Tōyama Return to Sing 2nd ''My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU'' Season's Ending|publisher=[[Anime News Network]]|date=March 9, 2015|accessdate=April 4, 2015}}</ref> The second season has been licensed by Sentai Filmworks.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-04-04/sentai-filmworks-adds-pleiades-re-kan-snafu-too-hello-kinmoza-utapri-season-3-is-it-wrong-to-try-to-pick-up-girls-in-a-dungeon-food-wars/.86760|title=Sentai Filmworks Adds ''Pleiades'', ''Re-Kan'', ''Snafu Too'', ''Hello! Kinmoza'', ''UtaPri'' Season 3, ''Is It Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon?'', ''Food Wars''|publisher=[[Anime News Network]]|date=April 4, 2014|accessdate=April 4, 2015}}</ref>

===Video game===
A video game for [[PlayStation Vita]], titled {{Nihongo|''Yahari Game demo Ore no Seishun Rabu Kome wa Machigatteiru.''|やはりゲームでも俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。|lit. "My Youth Romantic Comedy in Game is Wrong As I Expected."}} was published by [[5pb.]] and released on September 19, 2013. Takuya Eguchi, Saori Hayami, and Nao Tōyama reprised their roles from the anime.<ref name="ANN2">{{cite web|url=http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-06-05/my-teen-romantic-comedy-snafu-game-ova-to-ship-on-september-19|title=''My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU'' Game, OVA to Ship on September 19|publisher=[[Anime News Network]]|date=June 5, 2013|accessdate=2013-06-07}}</ref> The limited edition was bundled with an OVA episode.<ref name="ANN1" />

==See also==
* [[Military slang#SNAFU|SNAFU]]

==References==
{{reflist|30em}}

==External links==
* [http://gagaga-lululu.jp/gagaga/oregairu Light novel official website] {{ja icon}}
* [http://www.tbs.co.jp/anime/oregairu Anime official website] {{ja icon}}
* [http://5pb.jp/games/oregairu Video game official website] {{ja icon}}
* {{ann|anime|14888}}

{{Brain's Base}}
{{Feel}}

[[Category:2011 novels]]
[[Category:2012 manga]]
[[Category:2013 anime television series]]
[[Category:Anime and manga based on light novels]]
[[Category:Brain's Base]]
[[Category:Gagaga Bunko]]
[[Category:Ichijinsha manga]]
[[Category:Light novels]]
[[Category:Manga published by Gangan Comics]]
[[Category:NBCUniversal Entertainment Japan]]
[[Category:Romantic comedy anime and manga]]
[[Category:School anime and manga]]
[[Category:Seinen manga]]
[[Category:Sentai Filmworks]]
[[Category:Shogakukan manga]]
[[Category:Television programs based on light novels]]
[[Category:Tokyo Broadcasting System shows]]

Talk:Shaolin Soccer

2015-05-29T18:02:33Z

Die-yng: /* Needless use of Hyperlinks in this article. */ new section

{{Talk header}}
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{{WikiProject Comedy|class=c}}
{{WikiProject Hong Kong|class=c|importance=mid|cinema=yes}}
{{WikiProject Football|class=c|importance=low}}
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==untitled==
I changed capoeria to tae kwan do. I've seen the movie and the style resembles nothing like capoeria.-intranetusa

Are you sure it wasn't banned in Mainland China? I heard it on the news... --[[User:Comrade-HW|Comrade-HW]] 12:52, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I thought the Lion King Theme was woven in and out through the movie. Also, when there are sad scenes involving Mui, Grieg's "Solveyg's Song" is playing.

The two dreadlocked soccer players during the semi-finals were the female protagontists from two of his previous movies, "God of Cooking" (Karen Mok) and "God of Acting" (I don't remember her name)

intranet, how does it resemble TKD at all? TKD has close to NO groundwork. It's more like breakdancing a la Zack, the first Black Power Ranger, if nothing else [[User:75.30.230.217|75.30.230.217]] 01:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC) Ninjarina P.S. I did the note about music and other notable characters but I forgot to sign it.

== This should be filled out before being put back in the article. ==

'''List of Brothers/Best Friends'''
First Big Brother;Iron Head: The First Big Brother works in a club as a janitor. He has the ability of Iron Head. His head, as it is implied, is as tough as iron.
He has the ability to do flips, balance and head butt people or objects with being injured by it unless if the person was stronger than he is (ex. Team Evil's "Iron Head" was enhanced with steroids which made him "more powerful" than Iron Head) The Chinese Pronounciation of his name is Teet Tou Gung. His stance is balancing on his head.

Second Big Brother;Hooking Kick: Suffering from a a receding hairline and baldness, he works as a collector of feces and urine and a dishwasher. His ability is to do circular footsweeps, whirlwind kicks and spin kicks. The Chinese Pronounciation of his name is Shoon Fung Day Tong Tui.

[[User:Fire Star|Fire Star]] 05:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Sixth Little Brother; Light Wieght: Works as an employee in a supermarket, where he is often called "Lazy Swine". Suffers from a disease that causes him to eat uncontrolably and cause him to be overwieght. His speciality allows him to jump obscenely high. The chinese pronouciation of his name is Qing Gong.

[[User:BlazingSleet|BlazingSleet]] 03:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Im confused as to how deflating a soccer ball and yelling "No more soccer" makes a sequel more likely......[[User:71.243.216.211|71.243.216.211]] 05:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the story should be longer. Could anyone please expend it or I can write it if I'm allowed to; I mean it'll be easier since I have the movie itself. Sincerly [[User:Kniaz|Kniaz]]

I'm a bit confused..is there ''Shaolin Soccer 2'' in HOng-Kong ?, i have seen this on E-mule.

==Goalkeeper==

His name is "Empty Hand" and not "Iron Palm". Do you ever see him use his palms to strike anyone in the entire movie? No. He uses his fast hands to catch things. This is for the anonymous user who keeps on changing it back. ([[User:Ghostexorcist|Ghostexorcist]] 21:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC))

== Unverified information ==

"In the last scene, when Mui plays a goal-keeper and saves the goal by using her Tai Chi techniques, the Lion King theme song plays in background."

Is there proof of this? The music playing is similar to Lion King, but it's part of the original Shaolin Soccer soundtrack. Someone should remove this information unless someone can verify this information with a reference.

-[[User:208.47.211.5|208.47.211.5]] 18:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

:Why the hell would you strike a line through a sentence on the main article? There is already a tag asking for a citation. What you did could be considered vandalism. Do not do it again!
:And for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, he did this: <s>User:208.47.211.5</s> ([[User:Ghostexorcist|Ghostexorcist]] 18:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

::There's no need to be downright offensive about it. I didn't want to remove it just in case someone could verify it, but I didn't want it to be mistaken as true either. Also, I'm the one that put the citation tag on it at the same time. I did what I thought was right in the best interest of accurate information. If it was wrong, thanks for correcting it, but you don't have to be a jackass about it.
::-[[User:JanusZeal|JanusZeal]] 18:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

:::And now you know better. Don't do it again. ([[User:Ghostexorcist|Ghostexorcist]] 20:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC))
::::And just who are you precisely? What he did might not be standard Wikipedia procedure, but certainly many editors would've simply removed the entire uncited section, especially if he saw that the song was included on the "original Shaolin Soccer soundtrack". Using strikeout instead was at worst a formatting gaff--it's certainly not vandalism, because it's not vandalism to remove unsourced material if you have reason to suspect it is inaccurate. --[[User:Lode Runner|Lode Runner]] 03:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

== Trivia section from main page (do not archive) ==

The following came from the main page. It needs to be combined in to coherent paragraphs and citations need to be provided for each statement.

'''Trivia'''
{{Unreferenced|date=February 2007}}
*With a gross of slightly over HK$60M, ''Shaolin Soccer'' became the highest grossing local film in [[Hong Kong]] history, to be surpassed by Stephen Chow's next film, [[Kung Fu Hustle]].
*[[Miramax Films|Miramax]] released an edited version of ''Shaolin Soccer'' in the US market on [[April 2]], [[2004]]. Missing over 20 minutes of footage, and featuring English dubbing, the Miramax release came under heavy criticism from Hong Kong film fans (not to mention box office because people had bought the imported DVDs three years earlier), leading the studio to reinstate both the excised footage and the original Chinese language audio as a viewer option for the US DVD release.
*In the 1994 Stephen Chow movie, ''[[Love on Delivery]]'', [[Ng Man Tat]] plays a cripple who is a has-been [[martial arts|martial artist]]. In one scene he is hit in the face by a stray soccer ball. When asked by Stephen Chow's character whether he is fine, Ng Man Tat's character replies: "I'm all right. I have practiced [[kung fu]]."

([[User:Ghostexorcist|Ghostexorcist]] 04:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC))

Can anyone confirm that Tsubasa Chronicles is STILL running after round 28 years? --[[Special:Contributions/98.160.238.83|98.160.238.83]] ([[User talk:98.160.238.83|talk]]) 04:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

==[[PUMA]] involvement==
I can't believe theres absolutely no mention of the various involvement from the [[PUMA]] brand and company in this movie. There needs to be some mention of them.

== Vincent Kok mentioning ==

Considering Cecelia Cheung and Karen Mok were mentioned, shouldn't Vincent Kok get a mention too? He had a minor role as the captain (i think?) of the first team that Chow plays in the tournament. Vincent was the main antagonist in God of Cookery, and has had other small roles in some other of Chow's movies.

Oh, and also that guy dressed as a woman who picks her nose perhaps should get a mention too? —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Mike45450|Mike45450]] ([[User talk:Mike45450|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mike45450|contribs]]) 19:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC) 

== WeightLESS vest...? ==

I thought "Weight Vest" was a mistranslation and it was actually "Weightless Vest", an ironic title with the character being overweight and all. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.250.41.125|84.250.41.125]] ([[User talk:84.250.41.125|talk]]) 09:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 

== About the Animation section ==

The Animation section seems to be a bit confused at what its goal is supposed to be. There's a need to clarify exactly what this section should be about. Should it be about the CGI animation utilized in Shaolin Soccer or should it be about the animated adaptations based on Shaolin Soccer? [[User:The Mask|The Mask]] ([[User talk:The Mask|talk]]) 05:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

== Needless use of Hyperlinks in this article. ==

By reading through it I saw that several hyperlinks were included that don't make particularly much sense.
Do we need a link to the wikipedia article about acne or drugs?
I have no problems with hyperlinks, but it should be in relation to the topic of the article and not some commonplace information, that anybody already has, at least as much as needed to understand the summary of the plot of this film.--[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 18:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Die-yng

2015-05-19T19:11:04Z

Die-yng: /* December 2014 */

Talk:Danika (film)

2015-05-09T00:00:49Z

Die-yng: /* Plot is an opinion piece */ new section

{{film|class=Start|American-task-force=yes|needs-image=yes}}

== Plot is an opinion piece ==

I can't help but notice, reading the plot for this direct to dvd film that almost half of it seems to be the opinion the person writing the plot section had about the film.
This part of the plot has no place on wikipedia imo.
Even in the reception section, it would have to be relevant opinions by critics, not by an anonymous wikipedia editor.--[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 00:00, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Die-yng

2015-05-04T01:58:40Z

Die-yng: /* Topic ban */

== December 2014 ==
[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]]. I wanted to let you know that I undid one or more of [[Special:Contributions/Die-yng|your recent contributions]] to [[:In Your Eyes (Peter Gabriel song)]] because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[WP:sandbox|sandbox]]. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User_talk:Binksternet|my talk page]]. Thanks! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 01:39, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Binksternet

2014-12-07T18:10:53Z

Die-yng: /* Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page */

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| width="10%" align="center" |{{User:Malcolm/Clickthru/3|link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Binksternet/DYK|image=Symbol question.svg|width=48px|height=4em|title=Did you know}}
| width="10%" align="center" |{{User:Malcolm/Clickthru/3|link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Binksternet/Awards|image=Original_Barnstar.png|width=52px|height=4em|title=Awards}}
|-
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/Articles_created|Articles created]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/Significant_contributor|Significant contributor]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/Images|Images]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/DYK|Did you know]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/Awards|Awards]]
|}

{{archive box|align=right|search=yes|
*[[/Archive1|Archive1 - August 2007 – June 2008]],
*[[/Archive2|Archive2 - July–November 2008]],
*[[/Archive3|Archive3 - November 2008 – May 2009]],
*[[/Archive4|Archive4 - May–July 2009]],
*[[/Archive5|Archive5 - July–August 2009]],
*[[/Archive6|Archive6 - September–October 2009]],
*[[/Archive7|Archive7 - October–December 2009]],
*[[/Archive8|Archive8 - December 2009 – February 2010]],
*[[/Archive9|Archive9 - March–April 2010]],
*[[/Archive10|Archive10 - May–July 2010]],
*[[/Archive11|Archive11 – July–October 2010]],
*[[/Archive12|Archive12 – October 2010 – January 2011]]
*[[/Archive13|Archive13 – January–March 2011]]
*[[/Archive14|Archive14 – April–July 2011]]
*[[/Archive15|Archive15 – August–October 2011]]
*[[/Archive16|Archive16 – November–December 2011]]
*[[/Archive17|Archive17 – January–February 2012]]
*[[/Archive18|Archive18 – March–April 2012]]
*[[/Archive19|Archive19 – May–July 2012]]
*[[/Archive20|Archive20 – August–October 2012]]
*[[/Archive21|Archive21 – November–December 2012]]
*[[/Archive22|Archive22 – January–February 2013]]
*[[/Archive23|Archive23 – March–April 2013]]
*[[/Archive24|Archive24 – May–June 2013]]
*[[/Archive25|Archive25 – July–August 2013]]
*[[/Archive26|Archive26 – September–October 2013]]
*[[/Archive27|Archive27 – November–December 2013]]
*[[/Archive28|Archive28 – January–February 2014]]
*[[/Archive29|Archive29 – March–April 2014]]
*[[/Archive30|Archive30 – May–June 2014]]
*[[/Archive31|Archive31 – July–August 2014]]
*[[/Archive32|Archive32 – September–October 2014]]
*[[/Archive33|Archive33 – November–December 2014]]
}}

== Succession box ==

As you know, there has been a heated debate about succession due to redistricting involving house representatives and I want talk to someone reasonable about this. Right now as it stands, there is a new rule that came up this year that succession is not to be included in the infobox. However, it only seems to have been applied to [[Michael Grimm]] and [[Charles Rangel]] while the rest were left alone. Note that succession in the infobox is the way it has always been for years without question since the start of Wikipedia. The fact that so many articles were unchanged leads me to believe that the general consensus hasn't changed. The problem is the infobox, when referring to Rangel, was changed to "redistricted" while while every other house member who went through redistricting, is shown as being succeeded by someone else just fine. For example: [[Yvette Clarke]], [[Gregory Meeks]], [[Peter T. King]], [[Steve Israel]], and [[Nydia Velázquez]]. I have pointed out this issue on many discussion pages that it confuses readers and is inconsistent, but seems to be always ignored. Surely you can see the problem with this, right? [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:02, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:The solution is to fix all those other biographies with misleading progression boxes. Redistricting should reset the succession. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:05, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::Since there is so much redistricting, it makes you wonder if there is any need to mention anyone preceding or succeeding in the infobox at all. There would be so many articles on U.S. Representatives past and present it would be impossible to count them all. I think there needs to be a major discussion about this because this would change something that has been in place for so many years and would effect likely thousands of articles. I also think there is plenty of argument to say that succession does still apply due to the district number staying the same. If it is ultimately decided that the infoboxes should change, it needs to be enforced on every article. That is going to be hard to do. I just hope it isn't going to be applied to a few articles and not the rest. Inconsistency is not what Wikipedia needs. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::We should not shy away from fixing articles because of the large scope of the problem. I don't see anything particularly compelling about the district number as compared to the district geography and demographics. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::::That's the problem. Do the articles actually need fixing in the first place? I don't see the issue with succession after redistricting. Most readers know that districts are listed by number, not physical geography. Since the district number never changes, it is not false or misleading to say one succeeded another in that district after redistricting. Answer this, if this is such an issue, why is it just being noticed now after so many years? I really do think suddenly changing this will cause a lot more problems than before. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I don't assign a higher value to the practice of ignoring a problem, if that practice is long established. No matter how old the problem is I think we should fix it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

== Succession ==

I rather think some [[Laugh-In]] writers have decided to join in the discussions about Congressperson succession where the two districts have ''naught'' to do with each other <g>. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 21:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:Regarding the editors who have offered their thoughts at [[:Template_talk:Succession_box#RfC]], I don't demean those who differ from me in their opinions. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

==Recovering Deleted Text (2) ==
Hi (again!),
How do I get back into my sandbox my contributions to 'Chirp' that you deleted a few weeks ago?
I have a copy of what I originally submitted, but there were a few amendments made later by other editors that perhaps should be retained.
I intend to submit it as a separate article, as agreed, but I also need to expand it here and there according to suggestions made.
[[User:D1ofBerks|D1ofBerks]] ([[User talk:D1ofBerks|talk]]) 15:24, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

:Your best bet is to sift through the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chirp&action=history page history of Chirp]. Everything is still there in the history; nothing has been hidden or deleted. You can also investigate the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:D1ofBerks/sandbox&offset=&limit=500&action=history page history of your own sandbox], but you were the only contributor there. Good luck! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

== Why? ==

You said this "Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add soapboxing, promotional or advertising material to Wikipedia, as you did at Carson, North Dakota, you may be blocked from editing. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)" to me yes I did change Jimmy Fallon's page but that was o prove to teacher that wikipedia is a great website. Everything on Carson is true how would you know if it is right? Have you ever been there? I have I used to live there and I visit there alot! So I would like you to please tell me what was incorrect about Carson's page. Thank you
[[User:TSlag32|TSlag32]] ([[User talk:TSlag32|talk]]) 01:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)TSlag32

:Disrupting Wikipedia to prove something is a violation of [[WP:POINT]].
:The wording you added was promotional, puffing up a local business. Promotion is not allowed on Wikipedia. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 02:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

==Newly arrived Japanese revisionist editors==
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nanking_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=636129111] Please don't threaten people with blocks or bans just because they object to how an article is written. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 06:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::That new editor does not merely object to how the article is written. That editor is a Japanese revisionist, the sort of person who tries to Right Great Wrongs by starting with a huge falsehood. That editor is here to show that Japan was Asia's best friend from 1937 to 1945—a ridiculous notion. That editor is [[WP:NOTHERE]]; same with her meatpuppet friend. Neither one of them is going to have a long successful Wikipedia career. Nationalist Japanese right-wing revisionists are worse than the plague. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::: Binksternet, I'm growing concerned about this particular editor as well. It seems clear to me he has an agenda at cross purposes with the purposes of Wikipedia. From his user page, I suspect meat puppetry is taking place as well. I appreciate you helping to keep an eye on him. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 18:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Exactly. The most problematic new editor is a woman, by the way. There's a lot of offsite coordination going on, with [http://www.synopsis.today/news-opinion/wikiwars-the-ugly-truth/ this new opinion article] written by a female member of the Google+ group [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/communities/111582225314449540648 Voices of Japanese], the opinion text including a URL pointing to the problematic new user named LoveJapanChika. The Google+ group is filled with comments which fit the profile of right-wing Japanese nationalist revisionism, for instance, one person named Skales Sibbons says "Japan freed Asian countries during the war and suffered persecution afterwards."[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/1t69TzbUxR5] What nonsense! A group moderator named Chikako JTU (meaning Chikako of Japan Translation USA) wrote on November 16 that "Skales and I have found a valid legal defense NPOV argument for Iwane. We have formally presented it on the Talk page of this Wiki article",[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/eZS9vkjqAtj] referring to [[Talk:Iwane Matsui]], a discussion page which was edited on November 16 by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634070789&oldid=512528000 NipponSun7] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634136911&oldid=634118144 LoveJapanChika]. The opinion piece was commented upon by Chikako JTU who said, "Mariko Ikeda has published the first in a series on anti-Japanese online propaganda. Her investigative report is about VOJ's own Skales and Chika and the forces of darkness they've been fighting..." on Wikipedia.[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg] So we know that LoveJapanChika and NipponSun7 are coordinating their POV attack by way of offsite interaction. If some admin doesn't block these two very soon, the case must be brought to [[WP:ANI]]. These two are [[WP:NOTHERE]] to write an encyclopedia, and they plan to bring in more of the same. The [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] effort ought to be stopped as soon as possible. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 20:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for your vigilance, Binksternet. I haven't had time to look at the articles or the Wikiproject, but just checking out your links, as well as the very frank calls on [[User talk:LoveJapanChika]] for people to "help and bring their friends" is enough for an indef block of that user per [[WP:NOTHERE]]. Done. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 22:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC).
::::::Thank you very much, Bish. You did the right thing. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Just a heads up--though you probably have seen this already--but [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg this] series of posts by Chikako JTU and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALoveJapanChika&diff=636258557&oldid=636232110 this] edit on LoveChikaJapan's talk page both imply she's planning a lawsuit against Wikipedia. This, of course, touches on [[WP:NLT]], but should it be reported at this stage? [[User:Michitaro|Michitaro]] ([[User talk:Michitaro|talk]]) 16:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, I had seen both of those comments. The NLT solution is to block the editor but LoveJapanChika is already blocked. There is nothing to do at this time. I'm not worried about whatever legal case she is cooking up; it would be thrown out of court for having no basis. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:21, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Or possibly a lawsuit against me? It's a bit vague, and I agree there's nothing to do at the moment. I can't make myself care, so far… if they should become more explicit about lawsuits, I suppose I'll remove talkpage access. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 17:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC).
::: I can't tell for sure if [[User:Aemathisphd|Aemathisphd]] is in on the meat puppetry or not, but he seems at least sympathetic. But I may have a bias against people who are determined that one of the first things you know about them is that they have a Ph.D. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::Hey, I have a merit badge, does that count? In any case, Aemathisphd is a good egg, a professor teaching the Holocaust, not Holocaust denial. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Relieved to hear it; I'll cut some slack. Perhaps he didn't recognize the significance of the spurious anti-Japanese bias tag he reverted back into the article. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

==Incompetence page==

What exactly do you dispute about my edit? There were two components: 1) Making the types of incompetence sub-sections 2) Making them grammatical.

Do you dispute that (for example) the term "Language Difficulty Incompetence" is ungrammatical? If you do not like my synonyms, why not add your own instead of leaving the grammatical errors. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You removed the vanchor templates which help the essay to work. You don't have consensus to change the essay. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 11:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

== Continued edit war... on Slipknot ==

Hi again – sorry to bother you, but you told this guy to go to the talk page and stop edit warring. You restored my edits to [[Slipknot (band)|Slipknot]] before the page was protected, and the moment the protection went down, you know what happened? He's gone and reverted my edits again. I tried talking about this on his [[User talk:TypeONegative13|talk page]] about three weeks ago, but he basically said that I was ruining ''his'' edits, that mine were wrong, and that I was unnecessarily taking out things that he deemed necessary. He never really give a proper explanation as to why he was reverting my edits. Again, I don't mean to bother you, but this guy just won't quit, and whilst I am trying to learn how to do an RfC as you said, as well as try and be cool and calm about this, I don't see how it will stop him. I don't think he understands that other people can actually edit the page.

I'm not trying to dob this guy in or anything, but you know the system better than me – and this guy is edit warring, and won't go to the [[Talk:Slipknot (band)|talk page]]. Could you please help me? I'm just trying to do what's best for the article. Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You both are of the opinion that you are doing what's best for the article. With a style-based dispute like this, nobody is ''right''. However, the status quo should be maintained in the absence of a new consensus to change the style. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks again, Binks. [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 00:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:::Hey, Binks – this isn't so much about an edit war, but about the two new members of Slipknot. The same person has now put on a source claiming that their identities have again been leaked. If this is so, can I please add them to the band members section (and, again, restore the edits to the section that this person has reverted) and the timeline? Ever since I looked at this source, I've been itching to put them in and put the timeline how I want it (which is basically how it was when I first edited the article). Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Yes, the source is gossipy but more sources will quickly pick up on it and publish. I've known all along that Venturella and Weinberg were touring with Slipknot (I keep my ear to the ground in the world of touring audio engineers) but the Wikipedia rules needed to be followed. Once their names were published in a reliable source then we could put them into the band article, and the band into their biographies. But they are not necessarily band ''members''; the only thing that has been published is the fact that they are touring with the band. That makes them touring members for sure, not official band members. It also leaves unanswered the question of how much recording they did for the recent album. Today's news scoop doesn't address that part. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

:::::In case you're interested in this sort of thing, [http://roadcrewbooks.com/norm-costa-interview/ here's an interview] of the pissed-off drum tech named Norm Costa who posted the Slipknot personnel list. The interview is from July, long before he got fired and got revenge. It gives a little bit of an inside view of what a roadie thinks about his gig. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

== Revert of edits on Complex Systems ==

Hi Binksternet, thanks for the revert for an edit with no sources. Did you happen to notice that the section I edited, that section also has no sources? Did you bother to revert those edits, too? In other words: The entire section, if not the whole article, is a pile of horsehockey. But you revert me, well done, Wikipedian. Have a great day. {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:Sounds like more of that article should be thrown in the bit bucket. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 06:25, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::So? Revert me but not your fellow editors? What's the matter sport, you enjoy reverting anonymous editors, but other editors, who also post with no sources, you think it is ok to let them stay? Hypocrite! {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:::The problem is that lots of Wikipedia was written in past years by people who were just shooting from the hip, like you did yesterday. In recent years the bar has risen, and the policy of [[WP:No original research]] is enforced more vigorously. Ideally, all that older text has been filtered through the lenses of subsequent editors who would have changed or deleted poorly written stuff. So the idea is that the surviving text has the blessing of everybody interested in the topic. Of course this idealism of mine doesn't hold up everywhere; at [[complex systems]] the initial contributor's flawed text has remained largely undisturbed. Yesterday [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Complex_systems&diff=prev&oldid=636278667 I removed a paragraph] that looked like it was not based on the literature. If you see more of this kind of stuff, feel free to remove it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 14:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Good answer, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

== Possible Sock Puppet ==

Hi Binks: I don't know what you all over here on WP consider a sock, but the behavior of this one [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Blind_Unicorn_Hunter user's contributions] strongly suggest a lot of experience with wiki which wouldn't be expected in an account so new. I saw his new account because he removed information from registered sex offender [[Doyle_Doss]]'s page. Any help you can render as always ! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 17:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks. I will check into this. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 17:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::This is new territory for me; I tried to strike the right balance at the Doss biography by referring to the [[Megan's Law]] website which certainly lists him. Regarding whether B.U.H. is a sockpuppet or merely an experienced editor starting a new account, I cannot see the harm, but I will keep an eye out. I am pretty sure his intersection with Doss was merely part of being a [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges recent changes patroller], since he shows a string of edits reverting very recent additions which he thought were problematic. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:I have no thoughts on the possible sock puppetry, but I had to revert the revert of Doss's criminal background just now. And something about the whole article as originally written reeks of self-promotion. Still, his company was mentioned in NYT, so I don't think I can say he's not notable. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Yeah, [[User_talk:Binksternet/Archive26#A_very_odd_biography|we talked about this issue]] 15 months ago, including a link to the AfD which came up no consensus, effectively keeping the article. The NYT mention is hard to ignore. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::The NYT article is straight from his press release. The writer even says that he saw the press release and contacted the maker. Doss is not notable except in his own mind. I still have trouble believing that other editors couldn't read/see what was in front of their eyes. The only reason he has an NYT mention is that he sent them a press release and they called him back. That's not notability - that's product placement. His products are only available through his website. He uses the wiki article to impress people, and given that he is formally listed at Megan's and everyone up here knows what he did only makes the continued presence of that article a festering wound to people who have been harmed by his actions - not the least of which the under 14 year old rape victim. Perhaps I failed to be forceful enough 15 months ago - but this guy doesn't deserve to be listed as notable at all ever, despite the ONE listing in NYT. Geeze if that's all it took to be in Wikipedia as a notable, I have a photo of myself from NYT (from the accompanying article) on my website. Research the rest of me and write me a really snazzy biography... high points: four times on cover of Good Housekeeping, multiple publications including a Facts-on-File book, etc. I promise you it will be a lot more interesting and a lot more notable than the article under discussion. PS the editor who started this page, has a long history of blocks and odd behavior, for example see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Richard_Arthur_Norton_%281958-_%29#Re:%20Your%20comments%20at%20Robin%20Williams%20talk%20page here]. Cheers! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 16:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]] ==

Hi Bink, thanks for your recent edit on ''[[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]]'' I was gonna do some cutesy thing like here's a plate of cookies for you but I don't know how to do it; so if I find out I owe you that plate of cookies OK? (: [[User:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|Rihanna-RiRi-fan]] ([[User talk:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|talk]]) 21:23, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:Thanks for the thought! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:WHY do you lot allow to keep pop-funk when the source doesn't explicitly call it pop-funk; the correct thing should be pop and R&B as there is more R&B on the album than funk — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/5.81.225.225|5.81.225.225]] ([[User talk:5.81.225.225|talk]]) 20:26, 4 December 2014 (UTC) 

== Silverchair and grunge ==

You recently reverted my change to the [[Silverchair]] page. I need to clarify that I wasn't trying to be biased here. My reasoning for the change was that "grunge" seems like more of a label rather than a genre. It seems to me like more of a label given to hard rock/metal/punk/alternative bands from the [[Seattle]] area during the late 1980s and early 1990s rather than its own genre. [[Silverchair]], being from [[Australia]] and releasing their debut album in 1995, didn't really fit this label to me. They seem like more of one of the so called [[post-grunge]] bands emulating the [[Seattle]] sound. However, you have been editing Wikipedia pages much longer than I have, so if you feel I am wrong, let me know and I will not make this change to the page again.[[Special:Contributions/98.23.14.214|98.23.14.214]] ([[User talk:98.23.14.214|talk]]) 01:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:You and I can sit down over some brews and talk about what we think are the right genres for Silverchair but Wikipedia goes by published reviews rather than the opinions of editors. If you can show that published reviews do not describe the band as an early grunge phenom growing into post-grunge as time went by, then you should change the article text. Right now, the article text says that the band was grunge at first. If I look at the sources will I find this idea supported? [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

== The vs. the in band names ==

My change to [[Led Zeppelin]]'s page has been reverted at least three times now. All I did was capitalize the T in "The" for [[The Pretty Things]] as it should be in the section "[[Led_Zeppelin#.22The_Biggest_Band_in_the_World|The Biggest Band in the World: 1971–75]]". Their band name is "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". They are similar to [[The Rolling Stones]], [[The Hives]] and [[The Killers]] in this regard. I even cited the band's official website in my most recent edit where it is displayed as "The Pretty Things" on their welcome page. You pointed me to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names]] that states:

"''An authoritative source will determine whether the word "the" is part of a band's name. For example, it should be included in the case of [[The Velvet Underground]], but not in that of [[Black Sabbath]]. For articles named after a band, a redirect (or disambiguation) should be created with the alternative name (with or without "the").''"

The band's name agrees with the example given in the second sentence, I fail to see why the "The" in their name should not be capitalized. It's even listed on their page here on Wikipedia as "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". If the band's own website and its Wikipedia page don't count as "an authoritative source" to back up my edit, what does? [[User:Jamrhein71|Jamrhein71]] ([[User talk:Jamrhein71|talk]]) 18:53, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:Right, the definite article ''the'' is most certainly part of the band name. Nobody is denying that. Instead, your attention was directed to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names (definite article)]] which says that the definite article ''the'', when part of the band name, should be presented in lower case in running prose. The guideline says that "'''the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose'''" and it gives as examples the Beatles and the Moody Blues, two bands which are usually styled "The Beatles" and "The Moody Blues" when their name appears at the beginning of a sentence, or is first in a list. So if the name of the band occurs somewhere else then it starts with lower case ''the''. However, names of songs and albums retain their capitalisation, to make some like the following:
:*{{xt|One of the albums by [[the Beatles]] was named [[The Beatles (album)|''The Beatles'']], released in 1968.}}
:This style was argued over the course of months, with plenty of people saying it should not be implemented, but many more people saying it should be. The style follows exactly the Chicago Manual of Style and many more respected publishing houses in Great Britain. It does not follow some other style guides and other publications' in-house style. So there ya go: Wikipedia decided to streamline things so that only of those two style would be used. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

==Please help explain NOR to a Swede==
I'm having a great deal of trouble explaing [[WP:NOR]] to an editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Willow_Creek,_California&oldid=636583027&diff=prev who...] keeps adding NOR to weather of northwestern California. He keeps trying to compare this town to that town, even after I explained it a couple times, he got haughty and now just reverts my edits. (Boring!) Commons is so much simpler. Don't ever hesitate to ask me for help over there; you're so helpful here! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 00:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
:I did more than explain; I removed a bunch of NOR violations on other articles he touched, and I directed him to comb through his contributions to remove more of them. If he doesn't work to understand the problem then he's not going to last very long here. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:41, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:::I apologise for any indiscretion caused by my previous angry choice of words, however the deal is that I will not write (demonstratingly) a single word (not even referenced) aside from the always-referenced weatherbox in the future. I will also never again touch anything on this Wiki of your precious California. I can also even vow never to visit your state if you want to. What I really didn't like was the threat of a ban if I retrospectively didn't submit and change everything I did. You surely don't have bots who can selectively keep sourced materials for that even if you were that desperate? So, just move along from here. [[User:Lommaren|Lommaren]] ([[User talk:Lommaren|talk]]) 11:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

::::It would be more constructive to continue with your factual climate descriptions based on references, while ending (and retroactively fixing) your unreferenced climate analysis. My strong words were intended to get your attention, which it appears they did. I did not want to cause an overreaction. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 15:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Who stole feminism? ==

You didn't address [http://www.friesian.com/times.htm this source] before your removal. I can use it standalone with direct quotes if you like. {{tq| And here, although Hirshman accuses Sommers of stopping in the middle of a sentence, it is Hirshman who doesn't seem to have read through the entire quote from Blackstone. For Blackstone, having noted that the old common law allowed to husbands the power of "domestic chastisement, in the same moderation that a man is allowed to correct his apprentices or children," goes on to say that, "But with us, in the politer reign of Charles the Second, this power of correction began to be doubted; and a wife may now have the security of the peace against her husband" }} I thought paraphrasing would be better. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 04:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:Let's keep discussion off my talk page since the issue is of interest to more people than just you and I. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Straw Poll ==

There is a straw poll that may interest you regarding the proper use of "Religion =" in infoboxes of atheists.

The straw poll is at [[Template talk:Infobox person#Straw poll]].

--[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 09:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Nominations for the Military history Wikiproject's Historian and Newcomer of the Year Awards are now open! ==

The Military history Wikiproject has opened nominations for the '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_historian_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military historian of the year]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_history_newcomer_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military history newcomer of the year]]'''. Nominations will be accepted until 13 December at 23:59 GMT, with voting to begin at 0:00 GMT 14 December. The voting will conclude on 21 December. [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 01:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


==Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page ==
To be honest I've no idea why you removed this, next time it might be a good idea to explain how my contribution is any less relevant than the rest of the section about the South Park episode. I've no idea whether you know this episode, but the song "Shock the Monkey" is clearly chosen to further accentuate the awkwardness of what Stan is doing and you clearly see how embarrassed Token and Wendy are, because of the racist implication, even if it was unintentional on Stan's part. So, to be honest, either the whole section about the South Park episode should be removed, or you include the whole (bad) joke and not just the part that you deem acceptable. South Park is known for his crass humour and as such a joke like this is pretty common and it clearly has to do with replacing "In Your Eyes" with "Shock the Monkey," so it is as relevant or not as the rest of the section.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 03:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

:You added your own interpretation of the scene, calling the playing of the song a "racist attack". Your take on the matter is interesting but if you want to put it into Wikipedia it must have been published somewhere first. See the guideline at [[WP:No original research]]. Thank you. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:01, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

::I did not write it was a racist attack, I wrote it '''"seemed"''' like a racist attack in the context of the episode, Part of the joke is that it only seemed to be racist, but you don't even seem to get that. And are you seriously trying to tell me that you need an interpretation for that or that it is only my interpretation? It is exactly the intention of choosing that particular song in that situation. You don't need to be a reviewer or particularly smart to see that.
::Bottom line, you don't like my addition for whatever self-righteous reason (maybe it has to do with political correctness, which obviously has no place in South Park)and you decided to remove it. My addition doesn't need any more of a source than the rest of the section, since it is what everyone can plainly see in the episode in question. I highly doubt you've ever seen it, as you would know that I'm right if you did. Considering that, I think you are not fit to judge this matter at all.
::Fact is fact. The joke is intended that way, it's not my interpretation of the joke, it is the joke.
::With an attitude of senseless control like this, it is no wonder that Wikipedia's reputation is getting worse and worse and that less and less people want to contribute.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 17:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
:::Here's the link to a youtube video of the scene, you can clearly see how it plays out by their expressions as simplistic as they may be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKIKNYUP6Vc< in addition there's also the episode summary on the South Park wikia http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/Raisins the problem is that this is so obvious that no one bothers much to write about it. There really is no other interpretation, I hope you can see that when you watch the clip.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 18:10, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Binksternet

2014-12-07T17:48:47Z

Die-yng: /* Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page */

User talk:Binksternet

2014-12-07T17:48:34Z

Die-yng: /* Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page */

{{bots|deny=Theo's Little Bot-bsr}}
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== Succession box ==

As you know, there has been a heated debate about succession due to redistricting involving house representatives and I want talk to someone reasonable about this. Right now as it stands, there is a new rule that came up this year that succession is not to be included in the infobox. However, it only seems to have been applied to [[Michael Grimm]] and [[Charles Rangel]] while the rest were left alone. Note that succession in the infobox is the way it has always been for years without question since the start of Wikipedia. The fact that so many articles were unchanged leads me to believe that the general consensus hasn't changed. The problem is the infobox, when referring to Rangel, was changed to "redistricted" while while every other house member who went through redistricting, is shown as being succeeded by someone else just fine. For example: [[Yvette Clarke]], [[Gregory Meeks]], [[Peter T. King]], [[Steve Israel]], and [[Nydia Velázquez]]. I have pointed out this issue on many discussion pages that it confuses readers and is inconsistent, but seems to be always ignored. Surely you can see the problem with this, right? [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:02, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:The solution is to fix all those other biographies with misleading progression boxes. Redistricting should reset the succession. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:05, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::Since there is so much redistricting, it makes you wonder if there is any need to mention anyone preceding or succeeding in the infobox at all. There would be so many articles on U.S. Representatives past and present it would be impossible to count them all. I think there needs to be a major discussion about this because this would change something that has been in place for so many years and would effect likely thousands of articles. I also think there is plenty of argument to say that succession does still apply due to the district number staying the same. If it is ultimately decided that the infoboxes should change, it needs to be enforced on every article. That is going to be hard to do. I just hope it isn't going to be applied to a few articles and not the rest. Inconsistency is not what Wikipedia needs. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::We should not shy away from fixing articles because of the large scope of the problem. I don't see anything particularly compelling about the district number as compared to the district geography and demographics. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::::That's the problem. Do the articles actually need fixing in the first place? I don't see the issue with succession after redistricting. Most readers know that districts are listed by number, not physical geography. Since the district number never changes, it is not false or misleading to say one succeeded another in that district after redistricting. Answer this, if this is such an issue, why is it just being noticed now after so many years? I really do think suddenly changing this will cause a lot more problems than before. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I don't assign a higher value to the practice of ignoring a problem, if that practice is long established. No matter how old the problem is I think we should fix it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

== Succession ==

I rather think some [[Laugh-In]] writers have decided to join in the discussions about Congressperson succession where the two districts have ''naught'' to do with each other <g>. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 21:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:Regarding the editors who have offered their thoughts at [[:Template_talk:Succession_box#RfC]], I don't demean those who differ from me in their opinions. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

==Recovering Deleted Text (2) ==
Hi (again!),
How do I get back into my sandbox my contributions to 'Chirp' that you deleted a few weeks ago?
I have a copy of what I originally submitted, but there were a few amendments made later by other editors that perhaps should be retained.
I intend to submit it as a separate article, as agreed, but I also need to expand it here and there according to suggestions made.
[[User:D1ofBerks|D1ofBerks]] ([[User talk:D1ofBerks|talk]]) 15:24, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

:Your best bet is to sift through the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chirp&action=history page history of Chirp]. Everything is still there in the history; nothing has been hidden or deleted. You can also investigate the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:D1ofBerks/sandbox&offset=&limit=500&action=history page history of your own sandbox], but you were the only contributor there. Good luck! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

== Why? ==

You said this "Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add soapboxing, promotional or advertising material to Wikipedia, as you did at Carson, North Dakota, you may be blocked from editing. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)" to me yes I did change Jimmy Fallon's page but that was o prove to teacher that wikipedia is a great website. Everything on Carson is true how would you know if it is right? Have you ever been there? I have I used to live there and I visit there alot! So I would like you to please tell me what was incorrect about Carson's page. Thank you
[[User:TSlag32|TSlag32]] ([[User talk:TSlag32|talk]]) 01:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)TSlag32

:Disrupting Wikipedia to prove something is a violation of [[WP:POINT]].
:The wording you added was promotional, puffing up a local business. Promotion is not allowed on Wikipedia. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 02:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

==Newly arrived Japanese revisionist editors==
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nanking_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=636129111] Please don't threaten people with blocks or bans just because they object to how an article is written. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 06:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::That new editor does not merely object to how the article is written. That editor is a Japanese revisionist, the sort of person who tries to Right Great Wrongs by starting with a huge falsehood. That editor is here to show that Japan was Asia's best friend from 1937 to 1945—a ridiculous notion. That editor is [[WP:NOTHERE]]; same with her meatpuppet friend. Neither one of them is going to have a long successful Wikipedia career. Nationalist Japanese right-wing revisionists are worse than the plague. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::: Binksternet, I'm growing concerned about this particular editor as well. It seems clear to me he has an agenda at cross purposes with the purposes of Wikipedia. From his user page, I suspect meat puppetry is taking place as well. I appreciate you helping to keep an eye on him. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 18:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Exactly. The most problematic new editor is a woman, by the way. There's a lot of offsite coordination going on, with [http://www.synopsis.today/news-opinion/wikiwars-the-ugly-truth/ this new opinion article] written by a female member of the Google+ group [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/communities/111582225314449540648 Voices of Japanese], the opinion text including a URL pointing to the problematic new user named LoveJapanChika. The Google+ group is filled with comments which fit the profile of right-wing Japanese nationalist revisionism, for instance, one person named Skales Sibbons says "Japan freed Asian countries during the war and suffered persecution afterwards."[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/1t69TzbUxR5] What nonsense! A group moderator named Chikako JTU (meaning Chikako of Japan Translation USA) wrote on November 16 that "Skales and I have found a valid legal defense NPOV argument for Iwane. We have formally presented it on the Talk page of this Wiki article",[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/eZS9vkjqAtj] referring to [[Talk:Iwane Matsui]], a discussion page which was edited on November 16 by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634070789&oldid=512528000 NipponSun7] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634136911&oldid=634118144 LoveJapanChika]. The opinion piece was commented upon by Chikako JTU who said, "Mariko Ikeda has published the first in a series on anti-Japanese online propaganda. Her investigative report is about VOJ's own Skales and Chika and the forces of darkness they've been fighting..." on Wikipedia.[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg] So we know that LoveJapanChika and NipponSun7 are coordinating their POV attack by way of offsite interaction. If some admin doesn't block these two very soon, the case must be brought to [[WP:ANI]]. These two are [[WP:NOTHERE]] to write an encyclopedia, and they plan to bring in more of the same. The [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] effort ought to be stopped as soon as possible. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 20:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for your vigilance, Binksternet. I haven't had time to look at the articles or the Wikiproject, but just checking out your links, as well as the very frank calls on [[User talk:LoveJapanChika]] for people to "help and bring their friends" is enough for an indef block of that user per [[WP:NOTHERE]]. Done. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 22:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC).
::::::Thank you very much, Bish. You did the right thing. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Just a heads up--though you probably have seen this already--but [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg this] series of posts by Chikako JTU and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALoveJapanChika&diff=636258557&oldid=636232110 this] edit on LoveChikaJapan's talk page both imply she's planning a lawsuit against Wikipedia. This, of course, touches on [[WP:NLT]], but should it be reported at this stage? [[User:Michitaro|Michitaro]] ([[User talk:Michitaro|talk]]) 16:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, I had seen both of those comments. The NLT solution is to block the editor but LoveJapanChika is already blocked. There is nothing to do at this time. I'm not worried about whatever legal case she is cooking up; it would be thrown out of court for having no basis. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:21, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Or possibly a lawsuit against me? It's a bit vague, and I agree there's nothing to do at the moment. I can't make myself care, so far… if they should become more explicit about lawsuits, I suppose I'll remove talkpage access. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 17:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC).
::: I can't tell for sure if [[User:Aemathisphd|Aemathisphd]] is in on the meat puppetry or not, but he seems at least sympathetic. But I may have a bias against people who are determined that one of the first things you know about them is that they have a Ph.D. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::Hey, I have a merit badge, does that count? In any case, Aemathisphd is a good egg, a professor teaching the Holocaust, not Holocaust denial. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Relieved to hear it; I'll cut some slack. Perhaps he didn't recognize the significance of the spurious anti-Japanese bias tag he reverted back into the article. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

==Incompetence page==

What exactly do you dispute about my edit? There were two components: 1) Making the types of incompetence sub-sections 2) Making them grammatical.

Do you dispute that (for example) the term "Language Difficulty Incompetence" is ungrammatical? If you do not like my synonyms, why not add your own instead of leaving the grammatical errors. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You removed the vanchor templates which help the essay to work. You don't have consensus to change the essay. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 11:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

== Continued edit war... on Slipknot ==

Hi again – sorry to bother you, but you told this guy to go to the talk page and stop edit warring. You restored my edits to [[Slipknot (band)|Slipknot]] before the page was protected, and the moment the protection went down, you know what happened? He's gone and reverted my edits again. I tried talking about this on his [[User talk:TypeONegative13|talk page]] about three weeks ago, but he basically said that I was ruining ''his'' edits, that mine were wrong, and that I was unnecessarily taking out things that he deemed necessary. He never really give a proper explanation as to why he was reverting my edits. Again, I don't mean to bother you, but this guy just won't quit, and whilst I am trying to learn how to do an RfC as you said, as well as try and be cool and calm about this, I don't see how it will stop him. I don't think he understands that other people can actually edit the page.

I'm not trying to dob this guy in or anything, but you know the system better than me – and this guy is edit warring, and won't go to the [[Talk:Slipknot (band)|talk page]]. Could you please help me? I'm just trying to do what's best for the article. Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You both are of the opinion that you are doing what's best for the article. With a style-based dispute like this, nobody is ''right''. However, the status quo should be maintained in the absence of a new consensus to change the style. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks again, Binks. [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 00:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:::Hey, Binks – this isn't so much about an edit war, but about the two new members of Slipknot. The same person has now put on a source claiming that their identities have again been leaked. If this is so, can I please add them to the band members section (and, again, restore the edits to the section that this person has reverted) and the timeline? Ever since I looked at this source, I've been itching to put them in and put the timeline how I want it (which is basically how it was when I first edited the article). Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Yes, the source is gossipy but more sources will quickly pick up on it and publish. I've known all along that Venturella and Weinberg were touring with Slipknot (I keep my ear to the ground in the world of touring audio engineers) but the Wikipedia rules needed to be followed. Once their names were published in a reliable source then we could put them into the band article, and the band into their biographies. But they are not necessarily band ''members''; the only thing that has been published is the fact that they are touring with the band. That makes them touring members for sure, not official band members. It also leaves unanswered the question of how much recording they did for the recent album. Today's news scoop doesn't address that part. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

:::::In case you're interested in this sort of thing, [http://roadcrewbooks.com/norm-costa-interview/ here's an interview] of the pissed-off drum tech named Norm Costa who posted the Slipknot personnel list. The interview is from July, long before he got fired and got revenge. It gives a little bit of an inside view of what a roadie thinks about his gig. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

== Revert of edits on Complex Systems ==

Hi Binksternet, thanks for the revert for an edit with no sources. Did you happen to notice that the section I edited, that section also has no sources? Did you bother to revert those edits, too? In other words: The entire section, if not the whole article, is a pile of horsehockey. But you revert me, well done, Wikipedian. Have a great day. {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:Sounds like more of that article should be thrown in the bit bucket. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 06:25, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::So? Revert me but not your fellow editors? What's the matter sport, you enjoy reverting anonymous editors, but other editors, who also post with no sources, you think it is ok to let them stay? Hypocrite! {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:::The problem is that lots of Wikipedia was written in past years by people who were just shooting from the hip, like you did yesterday. In recent years the bar has risen, and the policy of [[WP:No original research]] is enforced more vigorously. Ideally, all that older text has been filtered through the lenses of subsequent editors who would have changed or deleted poorly written stuff. So the idea is that the surviving text has the blessing of everybody interested in the topic. Of course this idealism of mine doesn't hold up everywhere; at [[complex systems]] the initial contributor's flawed text has remained largely undisturbed. Yesterday [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Complex_systems&diff=prev&oldid=636278667 I removed a paragraph] that looked like it was not based on the literature. If you see more of this kind of stuff, feel free to remove it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 14:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Good answer, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

== Possible Sock Puppet ==

Hi Binks: I don't know what you all over here on WP consider a sock, but the behavior of this one [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Blind_Unicorn_Hunter user's contributions] strongly suggest a lot of experience with wiki which wouldn't be expected in an account so new. I saw his new account because he removed information from registered sex offender [[Doyle_Doss]]'s page. Any help you can render as always ! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 17:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks. I will check into this. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 17:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::This is new territory for me; I tried to strike the right balance at the Doss biography by referring to the [[Megan's Law]] website which certainly lists him. Regarding whether B.U.H. is a sockpuppet or merely an experienced editor starting a new account, I cannot see the harm, but I will keep an eye out. I am pretty sure his intersection with Doss was merely part of being a [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges recent changes patroller], since he shows a string of edits reverting very recent additions which he thought were problematic. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:I have no thoughts on the possible sock puppetry, but I had to revert the revert of Doss's criminal background just now. And something about the whole article as originally written reeks of self-promotion. Still, his company was mentioned in NYT, so I don't think I can say he's not notable. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Yeah, [[User_talk:Binksternet/Archive26#A_very_odd_biography|we talked about this issue]] 15 months ago, including a link to the AfD which came up no consensus, effectively keeping the article. The NYT mention is hard to ignore. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::The NYT article is straight from his press release. The writer even says that he saw the press release and contacted the maker. Doss is not notable except in his own mind. I still have trouble believing that other editors couldn't read/see what was in front of their eyes. The only reason he has an NYT mention is that he sent them a press release and they called him back. That's not notability - that's product placement. His products are only available through his website. He uses the wiki article to impress people, and given that he is formally listed at Megan's and everyone up here knows what he did only makes the continued presence of that article a festering wound to people who have been harmed by his actions - not the least of which the under 14 year old rape victim. Perhaps I failed to be forceful enough 15 months ago - but this guy doesn't deserve to be listed as notable at all ever, despite the ONE listing in NYT. Geeze if that's all it took to be in Wikipedia as a notable, I have a photo of myself from NYT (from the accompanying article) on my website. Research the rest of me and write me a really snazzy biography... high points: four times on cover of Good Housekeeping, multiple publications including a Facts-on-File book, etc. I promise you it will be a lot more interesting and a lot more notable than the article under discussion. PS the editor who started this page, has a long history of blocks and odd behavior, for example see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Richard_Arthur_Norton_%281958-_%29#Re:%20Your%20comments%20at%20Robin%20Williams%20talk%20page here]. Cheers! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 16:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]] ==

Hi Bink, thanks for your recent edit on ''[[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]]'' I was gonna do some cutesy thing like here's a plate of cookies for you but I don't know how to do it; so if I find out I owe you that plate of cookies OK? (: [[User:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|Rihanna-RiRi-fan]] ([[User talk:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|talk]]) 21:23, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:Thanks for the thought! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:WHY do you lot allow to keep pop-funk when the source doesn't explicitly call it pop-funk; the correct thing should be pop and R&B as there is more R&B on the album than funk — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/5.81.225.225|5.81.225.225]] ([[User talk:5.81.225.225|talk]]) 20:26, 4 December 2014 (UTC) 

== Silverchair and grunge ==

You recently reverted my change to the [[Silverchair]] page. I need to clarify that I wasn't trying to be biased here. My reasoning for the change was that "grunge" seems like more of a label rather than a genre. It seems to me like more of a label given to hard rock/metal/punk/alternative bands from the [[Seattle]] area during the late 1980s and early 1990s rather than its own genre. [[Silverchair]], being from [[Australia]] and releasing their debut album in 1995, didn't really fit this label to me. They seem like more of one of the so called [[post-grunge]] bands emulating the [[Seattle]] sound. However, you have been editing Wikipedia pages much longer than I have, so if you feel I am wrong, let me know and I will not make this change to the page again.[[Special:Contributions/98.23.14.214|98.23.14.214]] ([[User talk:98.23.14.214|talk]]) 01:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:You and I can sit down over some brews and talk about what we think are the right genres for Silverchair but Wikipedia goes by published reviews rather than the opinions of editors. If you can show that published reviews do not describe the band as an early grunge phenom growing into post-grunge as time went by, then you should change the article text. Right now, the article text says that the band was grunge at first. If I look at the sources will I find this idea supported? [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

== The vs. the in band names ==

My change to [[Led Zeppelin]]'s page has been reverted at least three times now. All I did was capitalize the T in "The" for [[The Pretty Things]] as it should be in the section "[[Led_Zeppelin#.22The_Biggest_Band_in_the_World|The Biggest Band in the World: 1971–75]]". Their band name is "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". They are similar to [[The Rolling Stones]], [[The Hives]] and [[The Killers]] in this regard. I even cited the band's official website in my most recent edit where it is displayed as "The Pretty Things" on their welcome page. You pointed me to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names]] that states:

"''An authoritative source will determine whether the word "the" is part of a band's name. For example, it should be included in the case of [[The Velvet Underground]], but not in that of [[Black Sabbath]]. For articles named after a band, a redirect (or disambiguation) should be created with the alternative name (with or without "the").''"

The band's name agrees with the example given in the second sentence, I fail to see why the "The" in their name should not be capitalized. It's even listed on their page here on Wikipedia as "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". If the band's own website and its Wikipedia page don't count as "an authoritative source" to back up my edit, what does? [[User:Jamrhein71|Jamrhein71]] ([[User talk:Jamrhein71|talk]]) 18:53, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:Right, the definite article ''the'' is most certainly part of the band name. Nobody is denying that. Instead, your attention was directed to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names (definite article)]] which says that the definite article ''the'', when part of the band name, should be presented in lower case in running prose. The guideline says that "'''the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose'''" and it gives as examples the Beatles and the Moody Blues, two bands which are usually styled "The Beatles" and "The Moody Blues" when their name appears at the beginning of a sentence, or is first in a list. So if the name of the band occurs somewhere else then it starts with lower case ''the''. However, names of songs and albums retain their capitalisation, to make some like the following:
:*{{xt|One of the albums by [[the Beatles]] was named [[The Beatles (album)|''The Beatles'']], released in 1968.}}
:This style was argued over the course of months, with plenty of people saying it should not be implemented, but many more people saying it should be. The style follows exactly the Chicago Manual of Style and many more respected publishing houses in Great Britain. It does not follow some other style guides and other publications' in-house style. So there ya go: Wikipedia decided to streamline things so that only of those two style would be used. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

==Please help explain NOR to a Swede==
I'm having a great deal of trouble explaing [[WP:NOR]] to an editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Willow_Creek,_California&oldid=636583027&diff=prev who...] keeps adding NOR to weather of northwestern California. He keeps trying to compare this town to that town, even after I explained it a couple times, he got haughty and now just reverts my edits. (Boring!) Commons is so much simpler. Don't ever hesitate to ask me for help over there; you're so helpful here! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 00:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
:I did more than explain; I removed a bunch of NOR violations on other articles he touched, and I directed him to comb through his contributions to remove more of them. If he doesn't work to understand the problem then he's not going to last very long here. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:41, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:::I apologise for any indiscretion caused by my previous angry choice of words, however the deal is that I will not write (demonstratingly) a single word (not even referenced) aside from the always-referenced weatherbox in the future. I will also never again touch anything on this Wiki of your precious California. I can also even vow never to visit your state if you want to. What I really didn't like was the threat of a ban if I retrospectively didn't submit and change everything I did. You surely don't have bots who can selectively keep sourced materials for that even if you were that desperate? So, just move along from here. [[User:Lommaren|Lommaren]] ([[User talk:Lommaren|talk]]) 11:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

::::It would be more constructive to continue with your factual climate descriptions based on references, while ending (and retroactively fixing) your unreferenced climate analysis. My strong words were intended to get your attention, which it appears they did. I did not want to cause an overreaction. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 15:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Who stole feminism? ==

You didn't address [http://www.friesian.com/times.htm this source] before your removal. I can use it standalone with direct quotes if you like. {{tq| And here, although Hirshman accuses Sommers of stopping in the middle of a sentence, it is Hirshman who doesn't seem to have read through the entire quote from Blackstone. For Blackstone, having noted that the old common law allowed to husbands the power of "domestic chastisement, in the same moderation that a man is allowed to correct his apprentices or children," goes on to say that, "But with us, in the politer reign of Charles the Second, this power of correction began to be doubted; and a wife may now have the security of the peace against her husband" }} I thought paraphrasing would be better. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 04:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:Let's keep discussion off my talk page since the issue is of interest to more people than just you and I. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Straw Poll ==

There is a straw poll that may interest you regarding the proper use of "Religion =" in infoboxes of atheists.

The straw poll is at [[Template talk:Infobox person#Straw poll]].

--[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 09:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Nominations for the Military history Wikiproject's Historian and Newcomer of the Year Awards are now open! ==

The Military history Wikiproject has opened nominations for the '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_historian_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military historian of the year]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_history_newcomer_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military history newcomer of the year]]'''. Nominations will be accepted until 13 December at 23:59 GMT, with voting to begin at 0:00 GMT 14 December. The voting will conclude on 21 December. [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 01:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


==Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page ==
To be honest I've no idea why you removed this, next time it might be a good idea to explain how my contribution is any less relevant than the rest of the section about the South Park episode. I've no idea whether you know this episode, but the song "Shock the Monkey" is clearly chosen to further accentuate the awkwardness of what Stan is doing and you clearly see how embarrassed Token and Wendy are, because of the racist implication, even if it was unintentional on Stan's part. So, to be honest, either the whole section about the South Park episode should be removed, or you include the whole (bad) joke and not just the part that you deem acceptable. South Park is known for his crass humour and as such a joke like this is pretty common and it clearly has to do with replacing "In Your Eyes" with "Shock the Monkey," so it is as relevant or not as the rest of the section.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 03:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

:You added your own interpretation of the scene, calling the playing of the song a "racist attack". Your take on the matter is interesting but if you want to put it into Wikipedia it must have been published somewhere first. See the guideline at [[WP:No original research]]. Thank you. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:01, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

::I did not write it was a racist attack, I wrote it '''"seemed"''' like a racist attack in the context of the episode, Part of the joke is that it only seemed to be racist, but you don't even seem to get that. And are you seriously trying to tell me that you need an interpretation for that or that it is only my interpretation? It is exactly the intention of choosing that particular song in that situation. You don't need to be a reviewer or particularly smart to see that.
::Bottom line, you don't like my addition for whatever self-righteous reason (maybe it has to do with political correctness, which obviously has no place in South Park)and you decided to remove it. My addition doesn't need any more of a source than the rest of the section, since it is what everyone can plainly see in the episode in question. I highly doubt you've ever seen it, as you would know that I'm right if you did. Considering that, I think you are not fit to judge this matter at all.
::Fact is fact. The joke is intended that way, it's not my interpretation of the joke, it is the joke.
With an attitude of senseless control like this, it is no wonder that Wikipedia's reputation is getting worse and worse and that less and less people want to contribute.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 17:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Binksternet

2014-12-07T17:48:17Z

Die-yng: /* Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page */

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== Succession box ==

As you know, there has been a heated debate about succession due to redistricting involving house representatives and I want talk to someone reasonable about this. Right now as it stands, there is a new rule that came up this year that succession is not to be included in the infobox. However, it only seems to have been applied to [[Michael Grimm]] and [[Charles Rangel]] while the rest were left alone. Note that succession in the infobox is the way it has always been for years without question since the start of Wikipedia. The fact that so many articles were unchanged leads me to believe that the general consensus hasn't changed. The problem is the infobox, when referring to Rangel, was changed to "redistricted" while while every other house member who went through redistricting, is shown as being succeeded by someone else just fine. For example: [[Yvette Clarke]], [[Gregory Meeks]], [[Peter T. King]], [[Steve Israel]], and [[Nydia Velázquez]]. I have pointed out this issue on many discussion pages that it confuses readers and is inconsistent, but seems to be always ignored. Surely you can see the problem with this, right? [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:02, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:The solution is to fix all those other biographies with misleading progression boxes. Redistricting should reset the succession. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:05, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::Since there is so much redistricting, it makes you wonder if there is any need to mention anyone preceding or succeeding in the infobox at all. There would be so many articles on U.S. Representatives past and present it would be impossible to count them all. I think there needs to be a major discussion about this because this would change something that has been in place for so many years and would effect likely thousands of articles. I also think there is plenty of argument to say that succession does still apply due to the district number staying the same. If it is ultimately decided that the infoboxes should change, it needs to be enforced on every article. That is going to be hard to do. I just hope it isn't going to be applied to a few articles and not the rest. Inconsistency is not what Wikipedia needs. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::We should not shy away from fixing articles because of the large scope of the problem. I don't see anything particularly compelling about the district number as compared to the district geography and demographics. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::::That's the problem. Do the articles actually need fixing in the first place? I don't see the issue with succession after redistricting. Most readers know that districts are listed by number, not physical geography. Since the district number never changes, it is not false or misleading to say one succeeded another in that district after redistricting. Answer this, if this is such an issue, why is it just being noticed now after so many years? I really do think suddenly changing this will cause a lot more problems than before. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I don't assign a higher value to the practice of ignoring a problem, if that practice is long established. No matter how old the problem is I think we should fix it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

== Succession ==

I rather think some [[Laugh-In]] writers have decided to join in the discussions about Congressperson succession where the two districts have ''naught'' to do with each other <g>. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 21:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:Regarding the editors who have offered their thoughts at [[:Template_talk:Succession_box#RfC]], I don't demean those who differ from me in their opinions. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

==Recovering Deleted Text (2) ==
Hi (again!),
How do I get back into my sandbox my contributions to 'Chirp' that you deleted a few weeks ago?
I have a copy of what I originally submitted, but there were a few amendments made later by other editors that perhaps should be retained.
I intend to submit it as a separate article, as agreed, but I also need to expand it here and there according to suggestions made.
[[User:D1ofBerks|D1ofBerks]] ([[User talk:D1ofBerks|talk]]) 15:24, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

:Your best bet is to sift through the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chirp&action=history page history of Chirp]. Everything is still there in the history; nothing has been hidden or deleted. You can also investigate the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:D1ofBerks/sandbox&offset=&limit=500&action=history page history of your own sandbox], but you were the only contributor there. Good luck! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

== Why? ==

You said this "Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add soapboxing, promotional or advertising material to Wikipedia, as you did at Carson, North Dakota, you may be blocked from editing. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)" to me yes I did change Jimmy Fallon's page but that was o prove to teacher that wikipedia is a great website. Everything on Carson is true how would you know if it is right? Have you ever been there? I have I used to live there and I visit there alot! So I would like you to please tell me what was incorrect about Carson's page. Thank you
[[User:TSlag32|TSlag32]] ([[User talk:TSlag32|talk]]) 01:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)TSlag32

:Disrupting Wikipedia to prove something is a violation of [[WP:POINT]].
:The wording you added was promotional, puffing up a local business. Promotion is not allowed on Wikipedia. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 02:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

==Newly arrived Japanese revisionist editors==
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nanking_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=636129111] Please don't threaten people with blocks or bans just because they object to how an article is written. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 06:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::That new editor does not merely object to how the article is written. That editor is a Japanese revisionist, the sort of person who tries to Right Great Wrongs by starting with a huge falsehood. That editor is here to show that Japan was Asia's best friend from 1937 to 1945—a ridiculous notion. That editor is [[WP:NOTHERE]]; same with her meatpuppet friend. Neither one of them is going to have a long successful Wikipedia career. Nationalist Japanese right-wing revisionists are worse than the plague. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::: Binksternet, I'm growing concerned about this particular editor as well. It seems clear to me he has an agenda at cross purposes with the purposes of Wikipedia. From his user page, I suspect meat puppetry is taking place as well. I appreciate you helping to keep an eye on him. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 18:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Exactly. The most problematic new editor is a woman, by the way. There's a lot of offsite coordination going on, with [http://www.synopsis.today/news-opinion/wikiwars-the-ugly-truth/ this new opinion article] written by a female member of the Google+ group [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/communities/111582225314449540648 Voices of Japanese], the opinion text including a URL pointing to the problematic new user named LoveJapanChika. The Google+ group is filled with comments which fit the profile of right-wing Japanese nationalist revisionism, for instance, one person named Skales Sibbons says "Japan freed Asian countries during the war and suffered persecution afterwards."[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/1t69TzbUxR5] What nonsense! A group moderator named Chikako JTU (meaning Chikako of Japan Translation USA) wrote on November 16 that "Skales and I have found a valid legal defense NPOV argument for Iwane. We have formally presented it on the Talk page of this Wiki article",[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/eZS9vkjqAtj] referring to [[Talk:Iwane Matsui]], a discussion page which was edited on November 16 by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634070789&oldid=512528000 NipponSun7] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634136911&oldid=634118144 LoveJapanChika]. The opinion piece was commented upon by Chikako JTU who said, "Mariko Ikeda has published the first in a series on anti-Japanese online propaganda. Her investigative report is about VOJ's own Skales and Chika and the forces of darkness they've been fighting..." on Wikipedia.[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg] So we know that LoveJapanChika and NipponSun7 are coordinating their POV attack by way of offsite interaction. If some admin doesn't block these two very soon, the case must be brought to [[WP:ANI]]. These two are [[WP:NOTHERE]] to write an encyclopedia, and they plan to bring in more of the same. The [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] effort ought to be stopped as soon as possible. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 20:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for your vigilance, Binksternet. I haven't had time to look at the articles or the Wikiproject, but just checking out your links, as well as the very frank calls on [[User talk:LoveJapanChika]] for people to "help and bring their friends" is enough for an indef block of that user per [[WP:NOTHERE]]. Done. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 22:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC).
::::::Thank you very much, Bish. You did the right thing. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Just a heads up--though you probably have seen this already--but [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg this] series of posts by Chikako JTU and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALoveJapanChika&diff=636258557&oldid=636232110 this] edit on LoveChikaJapan's talk page both imply she's planning a lawsuit against Wikipedia. This, of course, touches on [[WP:NLT]], but should it be reported at this stage? [[User:Michitaro|Michitaro]] ([[User talk:Michitaro|talk]]) 16:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, I had seen both of those comments. The NLT solution is to block the editor but LoveJapanChika is already blocked. There is nothing to do at this time. I'm not worried about whatever legal case she is cooking up; it would be thrown out of court for having no basis. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:21, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Or possibly a lawsuit against me? It's a bit vague, and I agree there's nothing to do at the moment. I can't make myself care, so far… if they should become more explicit about lawsuits, I suppose I'll remove talkpage access. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 17:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC).
::: I can't tell for sure if [[User:Aemathisphd|Aemathisphd]] is in on the meat puppetry or not, but he seems at least sympathetic. But I may have a bias against people who are determined that one of the first things you know about them is that they have a Ph.D. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::Hey, I have a merit badge, does that count? In any case, Aemathisphd is a good egg, a professor teaching the Holocaust, not Holocaust denial. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Relieved to hear it; I'll cut some slack. Perhaps he didn't recognize the significance of the spurious anti-Japanese bias tag he reverted back into the article. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

==Incompetence page==

What exactly do you dispute about my edit? There were two components: 1) Making the types of incompetence sub-sections 2) Making them grammatical.

Do you dispute that (for example) the term "Language Difficulty Incompetence" is ungrammatical? If you do not like my synonyms, why not add your own instead of leaving the grammatical errors. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You removed the vanchor templates which help the essay to work. You don't have consensus to change the essay. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 11:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

== Continued edit war... on Slipknot ==

Hi again – sorry to bother you, but you told this guy to go to the talk page and stop edit warring. You restored my edits to [[Slipknot (band)|Slipknot]] before the page was protected, and the moment the protection went down, you know what happened? He's gone and reverted my edits again. I tried talking about this on his [[User talk:TypeONegative13|talk page]] about three weeks ago, but he basically said that I was ruining ''his'' edits, that mine were wrong, and that I was unnecessarily taking out things that he deemed necessary. He never really give a proper explanation as to why he was reverting my edits. Again, I don't mean to bother you, but this guy just won't quit, and whilst I am trying to learn how to do an RfC as you said, as well as try and be cool and calm about this, I don't see how it will stop him. I don't think he understands that other people can actually edit the page.

I'm not trying to dob this guy in or anything, but you know the system better than me – and this guy is edit warring, and won't go to the [[Talk:Slipknot (band)|talk page]]. Could you please help me? I'm just trying to do what's best for the article. Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You both are of the opinion that you are doing what's best for the article. With a style-based dispute like this, nobody is ''right''. However, the status quo should be maintained in the absence of a new consensus to change the style. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks again, Binks. [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 00:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:::Hey, Binks – this isn't so much about an edit war, but about the two new members of Slipknot. The same person has now put on a source claiming that their identities have again been leaked. If this is so, can I please add them to the band members section (and, again, restore the edits to the section that this person has reverted) and the timeline? Ever since I looked at this source, I've been itching to put them in and put the timeline how I want it (which is basically how it was when I first edited the article). Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Yes, the source is gossipy but more sources will quickly pick up on it and publish. I've known all along that Venturella and Weinberg were touring with Slipknot (I keep my ear to the ground in the world of touring audio engineers) but the Wikipedia rules needed to be followed. Once their names were published in a reliable source then we could put them into the band article, and the band into their biographies. But they are not necessarily band ''members''; the only thing that has been published is the fact that they are touring with the band. That makes them touring members for sure, not official band members. It also leaves unanswered the question of how much recording they did for the recent album. Today's news scoop doesn't address that part. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

:::::In case you're interested in this sort of thing, [http://roadcrewbooks.com/norm-costa-interview/ here's an interview] of the pissed-off drum tech named Norm Costa who posted the Slipknot personnel list. The interview is from July, long before he got fired and got revenge. It gives a little bit of an inside view of what a roadie thinks about his gig. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

== Revert of edits on Complex Systems ==

Hi Binksternet, thanks for the revert for an edit with no sources. Did you happen to notice that the section I edited, that section also has no sources? Did you bother to revert those edits, too? In other words: The entire section, if not the whole article, is a pile of horsehockey. But you revert me, well done, Wikipedian. Have a great day. {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:Sounds like more of that article should be thrown in the bit bucket. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 06:25, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::So? Revert me but not your fellow editors? What's the matter sport, you enjoy reverting anonymous editors, but other editors, who also post with no sources, you think it is ok to let them stay? Hypocrite! {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:::The problem is that lots of Wikipedia was written in past years by people who were just shooting from the hip, like you did yesterday. In recent years the bar has risen, and the policy of [[WP:No original research]] is enforced more vigorously. Ideally, all that older text has been filtered through the lenses of subsequent editors who would have changed or deleted poorly written stuff. So the idea is that the surviving text has the blessing of everybody interested in the topic. Of course this idealism of mine doesn't hold up everywhere; at [[complex systems]] the initial contributor's flawed text has remained largely undisturbed. Yesterday [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Complex_systems&diff=prev&oldid=636278667 I removed a paragraph] that looked like it was not based on the literature. If you see more of this kind of stuff, feel free to remove it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 14:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Good answer, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

== Possible Sock Puppet ==

Hi Binks: I don't know what you all over here on WP consider a sock, but the behavior of this one [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Blind_Unicorn_Hunter user's contributions] strongly suggest a lot of experience with wiki which wouldn't be expected in an account so new. I saw his new account because he removed information from registered sex offender [[Doyle_Doss]]'s page. Any help you can render as always ! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 17:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks. I will check into this. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 17:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::This is new territory for me; I tried to strike the right balance at the Doss biography by referring to the [[Megan's Law]] website which certainly lists him. Regarding whether B.U.H. is a sockpuppet or merely an experienced editor starting a new account, I cannot see the harm, but I will keep an eye out. I am pretty sure his intersection with Doss was merely part of being a [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges recent changes patroller], since he shows a string of edits reverting very recent additions which he thought were problematic. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:I have no thoughts on the possible sock puppetry, but I had to revert the revert of Doss's criminal background just now. And something about the whole article as originally written reeks of self-promotion. Still, his company was mentioned in NYT, so I don't think I can say he's not notable. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Yeah, [[User_talk:Binksternet/Archive26#A_very_odd_biography|we talked about this issue]] 15 months ago, including a link to the AfD which came up no consensus, effectively keeping the article. The NYT mention is hard to ignore. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::The NYT article is straight from his press release. The writer even says that he saw the press release and contacted the maker. Doss is not notable except in his own mind. I still have trouble believing that other editors couldn't read/see what was in front of their eyes. The only reason he has an NYT mention is that he sent them a press release and they called him back. That's not notability - that's product placement. His products are only available through his website. He uses the wiki article to impress people, and given that he is formally listed at Megan's and everyone up here knows what he did only makes the continued presence of that article a festering wound to people who have been harmed by his actions - not the least of which the under 14 year old rape victim. Perhaps I failed to be forceful enough 15 months ago - but this guy doesn't deserve to be listed as notable at all ever, despite the ONE listing in NYT. Geeze if that's all it took to be in Wikipedia as a notable, I have a photo of myself from NYT (from the accompanying article) on my website. Research the rest of me and write me a really snazzy biography... high points: four times on cover of Good Housekeeping, multiple publications including a Facts-on-File book, etc. I promise you it will be a lot more interesting and a lot more notable than the article under discussion. PS the editor who started this page, has a long history of blocks and odd behavior, for example see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Richard_Arthur_Norton_%281958-_%29#Re:%20Your%20comments%20at%20Robin%20Williams%20talk%20page here]. Cheers! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 16:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]] ==

Hi Bink, thanks for your recent edit on ''[[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]]'' I was gonna do some cutesy thing like here's a plate of cookies for you but I don't know how to do it; so if I find out I owe you that plate of cookies OK? (: [[User:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|Rihanna-RiRi-fan]] ([[User talk:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|talk]]) 21:23, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:Thanks for the thought! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:WHY do you lot allow to keep pop-funk when the source doesn't explicitly call it pop-funk; the correct thing should be pop and R&B as there is more R&B on the album than funk — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/5.81.225.225|5.81.225.225]] ([[User talk:5.81.225.225|talk]]) 20:26, 4 December 2014 (UTC) 

== Silverchair and grunge ==

You recently reverted my change to the [[Silverchair]] page. I need to clarify that I wasn't trying to be biased here. My reasoning for the change was that "grunge" seems like more of a label rather than a genre. It seems to me like more of a label given to hard rock/metal/punk/alternative bands from the [[Seattle]] area during the late 1980s and early 1990s rather than its own genre. [[Silverchair]], being from [[Australia]] and releasing their debut album in 1995, didn't really fit this label to me. They seem like more of one of the so called [[post-grunge]] bands emulating the [[Seattle]] sound. However, you have been editing Wikipedia pages much longer than I have, so if you feel I am wrong, let me know and I will not make this change to the page again.[[Special:Contributions/98.23.14.214|98.23.14.214]] ([[User talk:98.23.14.214|talk]]) 01:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:You and I can sit down over some brews and talk about what we think are the right genres for Silverchair but Wikipedia goes by published reviews rather than the opinions of editors. If you can show that published reviews do not describe the band as an early grunge phenom growing into post-grunge as time went by, then you should change the article text. Right now, the article text says that the band was grunge at first. If I look at the sources will I find this idea supported? [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

== The vs. the in band names ==

My change to [[Led Zeppelin]]'s page has been reverted at least three times now. All I did was capitalize the T in "The" for [[The Pretty Things]] as it should be in the section "[[Led_Zeppelin#.22The_Biggest_Band_in_the_World|The Biggest Band in the World: 1971–75]]". Their band name is "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". They are similar to [[The Rolling Stones]], [[The Hives]] and [[The Killers]] in this regard. I even cited the band's official website in my most recent edit where it is displayed as "The Pretty Things" on their welcome page. You pointed me to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names]] that states:

"''An authoritative source will determine whether the word "the" is part of a band's name. For example, it should be included in the case of [[The Velvet Underground]], but not in that of [[Black Sabbath]]. For articles named after a band, a redirect (or disambiguation) should be created with the alternative name (with or without "the").''"

The band's name agrees with the example given in the second sentence, I fail to see why the "The" in their name should not be capitalized. It's even listed on their page here on Wikipedia as "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". If the band's own website and its Wikipedia page don't count as "an authoritative source" to back up my edit, what does? [[User:Jamrhein71|Jamrhein71]] ([[User talk:Jamrhein71|talk]]) 18:53, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:Right, the definite article ''the'' is most certainly part of the band name. Nobody is denying that. Instead, your attention was directed to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names (definite article)]] which says that the definite article ''the'', when part of the band name, should be presented in lower case in running prose. The guideline says that "'''the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose'''" and it gives as examples the Beatles and the Moody Blues, two bands which are usually styled "The Beatles" and "The Moody Blues" when their name appears at the beginning of a sentence, or is first in a list. So if the name of the band occurs somewhere else then it starts with lower case ''the''. However, names of songs and albums retain their capitalisation, to make some like the following:
:*{{xt|One of the albums by [[the Beatles]] was named [[The Beatles (album)|''The Beatles'']], released in 1968.}}
:This style was argued over the course of months, with plenty of people saying it should not be implemented, but many more people saying it should be. The style follows exactly the Chicago Manual of Style and many more respected publishing houses in Great Britain. It does not follow some other style guides and other publications' in-house style. So there ya go: Wikipedia decided to streamline things so that only of those two style would be used. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

==Please help explain NOR to a Swede==
I'm having a great deal of trouble explaing [[WP:NOR]] to an editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Willow_Creek,_California&oldid=636583027&diff=prev who...] keeps adding NOR to weather of northwestern California. He keeps trying to compare this town to that town, even after I explained it a couple times, he got haughty and now just reverts my edits. (Boring!) Commons is so much simpler. Don't ever hesitate to ask me for help over there; you're so helpful here! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 00:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
:I did more than explain; I removed a bunch of NOR violations on other articles he touched, and I directed him to comb through his contributions to remove more of them. If he doesn't work to understand the problem then he's not going to last very long here. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:41, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:::I apologise for any indiscretion caused by my previous angry choice of words, however the deal is that I will not write (demonstratingly) a single word (not even referenced) aside from the always-referenced weatherbox in the future. I will also never again touch anything on this Wiki of your precious California. I can also even vow never to visit your state if you want to. What I really didn't like was the threat of a ban if I retrospectively didn't submit and change everything I did. You surely don't have bots who can selectively keep sourced materials for that even if you were that desperate? So, just move along from here. [[User:Lommaren|Lommaren]] ([[User talk:Lommaren|talk]]) 11:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

::::It would be more constructive to continue with your factual climate descriptions based on references, while ending (and retroactively fixing) your unreferenced climate analysis. My strong words were intended to get your attention, which it appears they did. I did not want to cause an overreaction. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 15:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Who stole feminism? ==

You didn't address [http://www.friesian.com/times.htm this source] before your removal. I can use it standalone with direct quotes if you like. {{tq| And here, although Hirshman accuses Sommers of stopping in the middle of a sentence, it is Hirshman who doesn't seem to have read through the entire quote from Blackstone. For Blackstone, having noted that the old common law allowed to husbands the power of "domestic chastisement, in the same moderation that a man is allowed to correct his apprentices or children," goes on to say that, "But with us, in the politer reign of Charles the Second, this power of correction began to be doubted; and a wife may now have the security of the peace against her husband" }} I thought paraphrasing would be better. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 04:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:Let's keep discussion off my talk page since the issue is of interest to more people than just you and I. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Straw Poll ==

There is a straw poll that may interest you regarding the proper use of "Religion =" in infoboxes of atheists.

The straw poll is at [[Template talk:Infobox person#Straw poll]].

--[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 09:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Nominations for the Military history Wikiproject's Historian and Newcomer of the Year Awards are now open! ==

The Military history Wikiproject has opened nominations for the '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_historian_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military historian of the year]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_history_newcomer_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military history newcomer of the year]]'''. Nominations will be accepted until 13 December at 23:59 GMT, with voting to begin at 0:00 GMT 14 December. The voting will conclude on 21 December. [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 01:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


==Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page ==
To be honest I've no idea why you removed this, next time it might be a good idea to explain how my contribution is any less relevant than the rest of the section about the South Park episode. I've no idea whether you know this episode, but the song "Shock the Monkey" is clearly chosen to further accentuate the awkwardness of what Stan is doing and you clearly see how embarrassed Token and Wendy are, because of the racist implication, even if it was unintentional on Stan's part. So, to be honest, either the whole section about the South Park episode should be removed, or you include the whole (bad) joke and not just the part that you deem acceptable. South Park is known for his crass humour and as such a joke like this is pretty common and it clearly has to do with replacing "In Your Eyes" with "Shock the Monkey," so it is as relevant or not as the rest of the section.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 03:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

:You added your own interpretation of the scene, calling the playing of the song a "racist attack". Your take on the matter is interesting but if you want to put it into Wikipedia it must have been published somewhere first. See the guideline at [[WP:No original research]]. Thank you. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:01, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

::I did not write it was a racist attack, I wrote it '''"seemed"''' like a racist attack in the context of the episode, Part of the joke is that it only seemed to be racist, but you don't even seem to get that. And are you seriously trying to tell me that you need an interpretation for that or that it is only my interpretation? It is exactly the intention of choosing that particular song in that situation. You don't need to be a reviewer or particularly smart to see that.
::Bottom line, you don't like my addition for whatever self-righteous reason (maybe it has to do with political correctness, which obviously has no place in South Park)and you decided to remove it. My addition doesn't need any more of a source than the rest of the section, since it is what everyone can plainly see in the episode in question. I highly doubt you've ever seen it, as you would know that I'm right if you did. Considering that, I think you are not fit to judge this matter at all.
Fact is fact. The joke is intended that way, it's not my interpretation of the joke, it is the joke.
With an attitude of senseless control like this, it is no wonder that Wikipedia's reputation is getting worse and worse and that less and less people want to contribute.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 17:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Binksternet

2014-12-07T17:47:58Z

Die-yng: /* Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page */

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| width="10%" align="center" |{{User:Malcolm/Clickthru/3|link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Binksternet/Awards|image=Original_Barnstar.png|width=52px|height=4em|title=Awards}}
|-
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/Articles_created|Articles created]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/Significant_contributor|Significant contributor]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/Images|Images]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/DYK|Did you know]]
| align="center" |[[User:Binksternet/Awards|Awards]]
|}

{{archive box|align=right|search=yes|
*[[/Archive1|Archive1 - August 2007 – June 2008]],
*[[/Archive2|Archive2 - July–November 2008]],
*[[/Archive3|Archive3 - November 2008 – May 2009]],
*[[/Archive4|Archive4 - May–July 2009]],
*[[/Archive5|Archive5 - July–August 2009]],
*[[/Archive6|Archive6 - September–October 2009]],
*[[/Archive7|Archive7 - October–December 2009]],
*[[/Archive8|Archive8 - December 2009 – February 2010]],
*[[/Archive9|Archive9 - March–April 2010]],
*[[/Archive10|Archive10 - May–July 2010]],
*[[/Archive11|Archive11 – July–October 2010]],
*[[/Archive12|Archive12 – October 2010 – January 2011]]
*[[/Archive13|Archive13 – January–March 2011]]
*[[/Archive14|Archive14 – April–July 2011]]
*[[/Archive15|Archive15 – August–October 2011]]
*[[/Archive16|Archive16 – November–December 2011]]
*[[/Archive17|Archive17 – January–February 2012]]
*[[/Archive18|Archive18 – March–April 2012]]
*[[/Archive19|Archive19 – May–July 2012]]
*[[/Archive20|Archive20 – August–October 2012]]
*[[/Archive21|Archive21 – November–December 2012]]
*[[/Archive22|Archive22 – January–February 2013]]
*[[/Archive23|Archive23 – March–April 2013]]
*[[/Archive24|Archive24 – May–June 2013]]
*[[/Archive25|Archive25 – July–August 2013]]
*[[/Archive26|Archive26 – September–October 2013]]
*[[/Archive27|Archive27 – November–December 2013]]
*[[/Archive28|Archive28 – January–February 2014]]
*[[/Archive29|Archive29 – March–April 2014]]
*[[/Archive30|Archive30 – May–June 2014]]
*[[/Archive31|Archive31 – July–August 2014]]
*[[/Archive32|Archive32 – September–October 2014]]
*[[/Archive33|Archive33 – November–December 2014]]
}}

== Succession box ==

As you know, there has been a heated debate about succession due to redistricting involving house representatives and I want talk to someone reasonable about this. Right now as it stands, there is a new rule that came up this year that succession is not to be included in the infobox. However, it only seems to have been applied to [[Michael Grimm]] and [[Charles Rangel]] while the rest were left alone. Note that succession in the infobox is the way it has always been for years without question since the start of Wikipedia. The fact that so many articles were unchanged leads me to believe that the general consensus hasn't changed. The problem is the infobox, when referring to Rangel, was changed to "redistricted" while while every other house member who went through redistricting, is shown as being succeeded by someone else just fine. For example: [[Yvette Clarke]], [[Gregory Meeks]], [[Peter T. King]], [[Steve Israel]], and [[Nydia Velázquez]]. I have pointed out this issue on many discussion pages that it confuses readers and is inconsistent, but seems to be always ignored. Surely you can see the problem with this, right? [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:02, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:The solution is to fix all those other biographies with misleading progression boxes. Redistricting should reset the succession. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:05, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::Since there is so much redistricting, it makes you wonder if there is any need to mention anyone preceding or succeeding in the infobox at all. There would be so many articles on U.S. Representatives past and present it would be impossible to count them all. I think there needs to be a major discussion about this because this would change something that has been in place for so many years and would effect likely thousands of articles. I also think there is plenty of argument to say that succession does still apply due to the district number staying the same. If it is ultimately decided that the infoboxes should change, it needs to be enforced on every article. That is going to be hard to do. I just hope it isn't going to be applied to a few articles and not the rest. Inconsistency is not what Wikipedia needs. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::We should not shy away from fixing articles because of the large scope of the problem. I don't see anything particularly compelling about the district number as compared to the district geography and demographics. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::::That's the problem. Do the articles actually need fixing in the first place? I don't see the issue with succession after redistricting. Most readers know that districts are listed by number, not physical geography. Since the district number never changes, it is not false or misleading to say one succeeded another in that district after redistricting. Answer this, if this is such an issue, why is it just being noticed now after so many years? I really do think suddenly changing this will cause a lot more problems than before. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I don't assign a higher value to the practice of ignoring a problem, if that practice is long established. No matter how old the problem is I think we should fix it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

== Succession ==

I rather think some [[Laugh-In]] writers have decided to join in the discussions about Congressperson succession where the two districts have ''naught'' to do with each other <g>. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 21:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:Regarding the editors who have offered their thoughts at [[:Template_talk:Succession_box#RfC]], I don't demean those who differ from me in their opinions. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

==Recovering Deleted Text (2) ==
Hi (again!),
How do I get back into my sandbox my contributions to 'Chirp' that you deleted a few weeks ago?
I have a copy of what I originally submitted, but there were a few amendments made later by other editors that perhaps should be retained.
I intend to submit it as a separate article, as agreed, but I also need to expand it here and there according to suggestions made.
[[User:D1ofBerks|D1ofBerks]] ([[User talk:D1ofBerks|talk]]) 15:24, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

:Your best bet is to sift through the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chirp&action=history page history of Chirp]. Everything is still there in the history; nothing has been hidden or deleted. You can also investigate the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:D1ofBerks/sandbox&offset=&limit=500&action=history page history of your own sandbox], but you were the only contributor there. Good luck! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

== Why? ==

You said this "Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add soapboxing, promotional or advertising material to Wikipedia, as you did at Carson, North Dakota, you may be blocked from editing. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)" to me yes I did change Jimmy Fallon's page but that was o prove to teacher that wikipedia is a great website. Everything on Carson is true how would you know if it is right? Have you ever been there? I have I used to live there and I visit there alot! So I would like you to please tell me what was incorrect about Carson's page. Thank you
[[User:TSlag32|TSlag32]] ([[User talk:TSlag32|talk]]) 01:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)TSlag32

:Disrupting Wikipedia to prove something is a violation of [[WP:POINT]].
:The wording you added was promotional, puffing up a local business. Promotion is not allowed on Wikipedia. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 02:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

==Newly arrived Japanese revisionist editors==
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nanking_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=636129111] Please don't threaten people with blocks or bans just because they object to how an article is written. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 06:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::That new editor does not merely object to how the article is written. That editor is a Japanese revisionist, the sort of person who tries to Right Great Wrongs by starting with a huge falsehood. That editor is here to show that Japan was Asia's best friend from 1937 to 1945—a ridiculous notion. That editor is [[WP:NOTHERE]]; same with her meatpuppet friend. Neither one of them is going to have a long successful Wikipedia career. Nationalist Japanese right-wing revisionists are worse than the plague. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::: Binksternet, I'm growing concerned about this particular editor as well. It seems clear to me he has an agenda at cross purposes with the purposes of Wikipedia. From his user page, I suspect meat puppetry is taking place as well. I appreciate you helping to keep an eye on him. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 18:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Exactly. The most problematic new editor is a woman, by the way. There's a lot of offsite coordination going on, with [http://www.synopsis.today/news-opinion/wikiwars-the-ugly-truth/ this new opinion article] written by a female member of the Google+ group [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/communities/111582225314449540648 Voices of Japanese], the opinion text including a URL pointing to the problematic new user named LoveJapanChika. The Google+ group is filled with comments which fit the profile of right-wing Japanese nationalist revisionism, for instance, one person named Skales Sibbons says "Japan freed Asian countries during the war and suffered persecution afterwards."[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/1t69TzbUxR5] What nonsense! A group moderator named Chikako JTU (meaning Chikako of Japan Translation USA) wrote on November 16 that "Skales and I have found a valid legal defense NPOV argument for Iwane. We have formally presented it on the Talk page of this Wiki article",[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/eZS9vkjqAtj] referring to [[Talk:Iwane Matsui]], a discussion page which was edited on November 16 by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634070789&oldid=512528000 NipponSun7] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634136911&oldid=634118144 LoveJapanChika]. The opinion piece was commented upon by Chikako JTU who said, "Mariko Ikeda has published the first in a series on anti-Japanese online propaganda. Her investigative report is about VOJ's own Skales and Chika and the forces of darkness they've been fighting..." on Wikipedia.[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg] So we know that LoveJapanChika and NipponSun7 are coordinating their POV attack by way of offsite interaction. If some admin doesn't block these two very soon, the case must be brought to [[WP:ANI]]. These two are [[WP:NOTHERE]] to write an encyclopedia, and they plan to bring in more of the same. The [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] effort ought to be stopped as soon as possible. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 20:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for your vigilance, Binksternet. I haven't had time to look at the articles or the Wikiproject, but just checking out your links, as well as the very frank calls on [[User talk:LoveJapanChika]] for people to "help and bring their friends" is enough for an indef block of that user per [[WP:NOTHERE]]. Done. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 22:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC).
::::::Thank you very much, Bish. You did the right thing. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Just a heads up--though you probably have seen this already--but [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg this] series of posts by Chikako JTU and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALoveJapanChika&diff=636258557&oldid=636232110 this] edit on LoveChikaJapan's talk page both imply she's planning a lawsuit against Wikipedia. This, of course, touches on [[WP:NLT]], but should it be reported at this stage? [[User:Michitaro|Michitaro]] ([[User talk:Michitaro|talk]]) 16:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, I had seen both of those comments. The NLT solution is to block the editor but LoveJapanChika is already blocked. There is nothing to do at this time. I'm not worried about whatever legal case she is cooking up; it would be thrown out of court for having no basis. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:21, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Or possibly a lawsuit against me? It's a bit vague, and I agree there's nothing to do at the moment. I can't make myself care, so far… if they should become more explicit about lawsuits, I suppose I'll remove talkpage access. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 17:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC).
::: I can't tell for sure if [[User:Aemathisphd|Aemathisphd]] is in on the meat puppetry or not, but he seems at least sympathetic. But I may have a bias against people who are determined that one of the first things you know about them is that they have a Ph.D. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::Hey, I have a merit badge, does that count? In any case, Aemathisphd is a good egg, a professor teaching the Holocaust, not Holocaust denial. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Relieved to hear it; I'll cut some slack. Perhaps he didn't recognize the significance of the spurious anti-Japanese bias tag he reverted back into the article. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

==Incompetence page==

What exactly do you dispute about my edit? There were two components: 1) Making the types of incompetence sub-sections 2) Making them grammatical.

Do you dispute that (for example) the term "Language Difficulty Incompetence" is ungrammatical? If you do not like my synonyms, why not add your own instead of leaving the grammatical errors. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You removed the vanchor templates which help the essay to work. You don't have consensus to change the essay. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 11:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

== Continued edit war... on Slipknot ==

Hi again – sorry to bother you, but you told this guy to go to the talk page and stop edit warring. You restored my edits to [[Slipknot (band)|Slipknot]] before the page was protected, and the moment the protection went down, you know what happened? He's gone and reverted my edits again. I tried talking about this on his [[User talk:TypeONegative13|talk page]] about three weeks ago, but he basically said that I was ruining ''his'' edits, that mine were wrong, and that I was unnecessarily taking out things that he deemed necessary. He never really give a proper explanation as to why he was reverting my edits. Again, I don't mean to bother you, but this guy just won't quit, and whilst I am trying to learn how to do an RfC as you said, as well as try and be cool and calm about this, I don't see how it will stop him. I don't think he understands that other people can actually edit the page.

I'm not trying to dob this guy in or anything, but you know the system better than me – and this guy is edit warring, and won't go to the [[Talk:Slipknot (band)|talk page]]. Could you please help me? I'm just trying to do what's best for the article. Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You both are of the opinion that you are doing what's best for the article. With a style-based dispute like this, nobody is ''right''. However, the status quo should be maintained in the absence of a new consensus to change the style. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks again, Binks. [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 00:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:::Hey, Binks – this isn't so much about an edit war, but about the two new members of Slipknot. The same person has now put on a source claiming that their identities have again been leaked. If this is so, can I please add them to the band members section (and, again, restore the edits to the section that this person has reverted) and the timeline? Ever since I looked at this source, I've been itching to put them in and put the timeline how I want it (which is basically how it was when I first edited the article). Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Yes, the source is gossipy but more sources will quickly pick up on it and publish. I've known all along that Venturella and Weinberg were touring with Slipknot (I keep my ear to the ground in the world of touring audio engineers) but the Wikipedia rules needed to be followed. Once their names were published in a reliable source then we could put them into the band article, and the band into their biographies. But they are not necessarily band ''members''; the only thing that has been published is the fact that they are touring with the band. That makes them touring members for sure, not official band members. It also leaves unanswered the question of how much recording they did for the recent album. Today's news scoop doesn't address that part. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

:::::In case you're interested in this sort of thing, [http://roadcrewbooks.com/norm-costa-interview/ here's an interview] of the pissed-off drum tech named Norm Costa who posted the Slipknot personnel list. The interview is from July, long before he got fired and got revenge. It gives a little bit of an inside view of what a roadie thinks about his gig. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

== Revert of edits on Complex Systems ==

Hi Binksternet, thanks for the revert for an edit with no sources. Did you happen to notice that the section I edited, that section also has no sources? Did you bother to revert those edits, too? In other words: The entire section, if not the whole article, is a pile of horsehockey. But you revert me, well done, Wikipedian. Have a great day. {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:Sounds like more of that article should be thrown in the bit bucket. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 06:25, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::So? Revert me but not your fellow editors? What's the matter sport, you enjoy reverting anonymous editors, but other editors, who also post with no sources, you think it is ok to let them stay? Hypocrite! {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:::The problem is that lots of Wikipedia was written in past years by people who were just shooting from the hip, like you did yesterday. In recent years the bar has risen, and the policy of [[WP:No original research]] is enforced more vigorously. Ideally, all that older text has been filtered through the lenses of subsequent editors who would have changed or deleted poorly written stuff. So the idea is that the surviving text has the blessing of everybody interested in the topic. Of course this idealism of mine doesn't hold up everywhere; at [[complex systems]] the initial contributor's flawed text has remained largely undisturbed. Yesterday [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Complex_systems&diff=prev&oldid=636278667 I removed a paragraph] that looked like it was not based on the literature. If you see more of this kind of stuff, feel free to remove it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 14:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Good answer, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

== Possible Sock Puppet ==

Hi Binks: I don't know what you all over here on WP consider a sock, but the behavior of this one [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Blind_Unicorn_Hunter user's contributions] strongly suggest a lot of experience with wiki which wouldn't be expected in an account so new. I saw his new account because he removed information from registered sex offender [[Doyle_Doss]]'s page. Any help you can render as always ! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 17:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks. I will check into this. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 17:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::This is new territory for me; I tried to strike the right balance at the Doss biography by referring to the [[Megan's Law]] website which certainly lists him. Regarding whether B.U.H. is a sockpuppet or merely an experienced editor starting a new account, I cannot see the harm, but I will keep an eye out. I am pretty sure his intersection with Doss was merely part of being a [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges recent changes patroller], since he shows a string of edits reverting very recent additions which he thought were problematic. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:I have no thoughts on the possible sock puppetry, but I had to revert the revert of Doss's criminal background just now. And something about the whole article as originally written reeks of self-promotion. Still, his company was mentioned in NYT, so I don't think I can say he's not notable. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Yeah, [[User_talk:Binksternet/Archive26#A_very_odd_biography|we talked about this issue]] 15 months ago, including a link to the AfD which came up no consensus, effectively keeping the article. The NYT mention is hard to ignore. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::The NYT article is straight from his press release. The writer even says that he saw the press release and contacted the maker. Doss is not notable except in his own mind. I still have trouble believing that other editors couldn't read/see what was in front of their eyes. The only reason he has an NYT mention is that he sent them a press release and they called him back. That's not notability - that's product placement. His products are only available through his website. He uses the wiki article to impress people, and given that he is formally listed at Megan's and everyone up here knows what he did only makes the continued presence of that article a festering wound to people who have been harmed by his actions - not the least of which the under 14 year old rape victim. Perhaps I failed to be forceful enough 15 months ago - but this guy doesn't deserve to be listed as notable at all ever, despite the ONE listing in NYT. Geeze if that's all it took to be in Wikipedia as a notable, I have a photo of myself from NYT (from the accompanying article) on my website. Research the rest of me and write me a really snazzy biography... high points: four times on cover of Good Housekeeping, multiple publications including a Facts-on-File book, etc. I promise you it will be a lot more interesting and a lot more notable than the article under discussion. PS the editor who started this page, has a long history of blocks and odd behavior, for example see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Richard_Arthur_Norton_%281958-_%29#Re:%20Your%20comments%20at%20Robin%20Williams%20talk%20page here]. Cheers! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 16:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]] ==

Hi Bink, thanks for your recent edit on ''[[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]]'' I was gonna do some cutesy thing like here's a plate of cookies for you but I don't know how to do it; so if I find out I owe you that plate of cookies OK? (: [[User:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|Rihanna-RiRi-fan]] ([[User talk:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|talk]]) 21:23, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:Thanks for the thought! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:WHY do you lot allow to keep pop-funk when the source doesn't explicitly call it pop-funk; the correct thing should be pop and R&B as there is more R&B on the album than funk — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/5.81.225.225|5.81.225.225]] ([[User talk:5.81.225.225|talk]]) 20:26, 4 December 2014 (UTC) 

== Silverchair and grunge ==

You recently reverted my change to the [[Silverchair]] page. I need to clarify that I wasn't trying to be biased here. My reasoning for the change was that "grunge" seems like more of a label rather than a genre. It seems to me like more of a label given to hard rock/metal/punk/alternative bands from the [[Seattle]] area during the late 1980s and early 1990s rather than its own genre. [[Silverchair]], being from [[Australia]] and releasing their debut album in 1995, didn't really fit this label to me. They seem like more of one of the so called [[post-grunge]] bands emulating the [[Seattle]] sound. However, you have been editing Wikipedia pages much longer than I have, so if you feel I am wrong, let me know and I will not make this change to the page again.[[Special:Contributions/98.23.14.214|98.23.14.214]] ([[User talk:98.23.14.214|talk]]) 01:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:You and I can sit down over some brews and talk about what we think are the right genres for Silverchair but Wikipedia goes by published reviews rather than the opinions of editors. If you can show that published reviews do not describe the band as an early grunge phenom growing into post-grunge as time went by, then you should change the article text. Right now, the article text says that the band was grunge at first. If I look at the sources will I find this idea supported? [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

== The vs. the in band names ==

My change to [[Led Zeppelin]]'s page has been reverted at least three times now. All I did was capitalize the T in "The" for [[The Pretty Things]] as it should be in the section "[[Led_Zeppelin#.22The_Biggest_Band_in_the_World|The Biggest Band in the World: 1971–75]]". Their band name is "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". They are similar to [[The Rolling Stones]], [[The Hives]] and [[The Killers]] in this regard. I even cited the band's official website in my most recent edit where it is displayed as "The Pretty Things" on their welcome page. You pointed me to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names]] that states:

"''An authoritative source will determine whether the word "the" is part of a band's name. For example, it should be included in the case of [[The Velvet Underground]], but not in that of [[Black Sabbath]]. For articles named after a band, a redirect (or disambiguation) should be created with the alternative name (with or without "the").''"

The band's name agrees with the example given in the second sentence, I fail to see why the "The" in their name should not be capitalized. It's even listed on their page here on Wikipedia as "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". If the band's own website and its Wikipedia page don't count as "an authoritative source" to back up my edit, what does? [[User:Jamrhein71|Jamrhein71]] ([[User talk:Jamrhein71|talk]]) 18:53, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:Right, the definite article ''the'' is most certainly part of the band name. Nobody is denying that. Instead, your attention was directed to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names (definite article)]] which says that the definite article ''the'', when part of the band name, should be presented in lower case in running prose. The guideline says that "'''the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose'''" and it gives as examples the Beatles and the Moody Blues, two bands which are usually styled "The Beatles" and "The Moody Blues" when their name appears at the beginning of a sentence, or is first in a list. So if the name of the band occurs somewhere else then it starts with lower case ''the''. However, names of songs and albums retain their capitalisation, to make some like the following:
:*{{xt|One of the albums by [[the Beatles]] was named [[The Beatles (album)|''The Beatles'']], released in 1968.}}
:This style was argued over the course of months, with plenty of people saying it should not be implemented, but many more people saying it should be. The style follows exactly the Chicago Manual of Style and many more respected publishing houses in Great Britain. It does not follow some other style guides and other publications' in-house style. So there ya go: Wikipedia decided to streamline things so that only of those two style would be used. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

==Please help explain NOR to a Swede==
I'm having a great deal of trouble explaing [[WP:NOR]] to an editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Willow_Creek,_California&oldid=636583027&diff=prev who...] keeps adding NOR to weather of northwestern California. He keeps trying to compare this town to that town, even after I explained it a couple times, he got haughty and now just reverts my edits. (Boring!) Commons is so much simpler. Don't ever hesitate to ask me for help over there; you're so helpful here! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 00:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
:I did more than explain; I removed a bunch of NOR violations on other articles he touched, and I directed him to comb through his contributions to remove more of them. If he doesn't work to understand the problem then he's not going to last very long here. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:41, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:::I apologise for any indiscretion caused by my previous angry choice of words, however the deal is that I will not write (demonstratingly) a single word (not even referenced) aside from the always-referenced weatherbox in the future. I will also never again touch anything on this Wiki of your precious California. I can also even vow never to visit your state if you want to. What I really didn't like was the threat of a ban if I retrospectively didn't submit and change everything I did. You surely don't have bots who can selectively keep sourced materials for that even if you were that desperate? So, just move along from here. [[User:Lommaren|Lommaren]] ([[User talk:Lommaren|talk]]) 11:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

::::It would be more constructive to continue with your factual climate descriptions based on references, while ending (and retroactively fixing) your unreferenced climate analysis. My strong words were intended to get your attention, which it appears they did. I did not want to cause an overreaction. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 15:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Who stole feminism? ==

You didn't address [http://www.friesian.com/times.htm this source] before your removal. I can use it standalone with direct quotes if you like. {{tq| And here, although Hirshman accuses Sommers of stopping in the middle of a sentence, it is Hirshman who doesn't seem to have read through the entire quote from Blackstone. For Blackstone, having noted that the old common law allowed to husbands the power of "domestic chastisement, in the same moderation that a man is allowed to correct his apprentices or children," goes on to say that, "But with us, in the politer reign of Charles the Second, this power of correction began to be doubted; and a wife may now have the security of the peace against her husband" }} I thought paraphrasing would be better. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 04:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:Let's keep discussion off my talk page since the issue is of interest to more people than just you and I. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Straw Poll ==

There is a straw poll that may interest you regarding the proper use of "Religion =" in infoboxes of atheists.

The straw poll is at [[Template talk:Infobox person#Straw poll]].

--[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 09:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Nominations for the Military history Wikiproject's Historian and Newcomer of the Year Awards are now open! ==

The Military history Wikiproject has opened nominations for the '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_historian_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military historian of the year]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_history_newcomer_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military history newcomer of the year]]'''. Nominations will be accepted until 13 December at 23:59 GMT, with voting to begin at 0:00 GMT 14 December. The voting will conclude on 21 December. [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 01:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


==Reverting of changes to the "In Your Eyes" song page ==
To be honest I've no idea why you removed this, next time it might be a good idea to explain how my contribution is any less relevant than the rest of the section about the South Park episode. I've no idea whether you know this episode, but the song "Shock the Monkey" is clearly chosen to further accentuate the awkwardness of what Stan is doing and you clearly see how embarrassed Token and Wendy are, because of the racist implication, even if it was unintentional on Stan's part. So, to be honest, either the whole section about the South Park episode should be removed, or you include the whole (bad) joke and not just the part that you deem acceptable. South Park is known for his crass humour and as such a joke like this is pretty common and it clearly has to do with replacing "In Your Eyes" with "Shock the Monkey," so it is as relevant or not as the rest of the section.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 03:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

:You added your own interpretation of the scene, calling the playing of the song a "racist attack". Your take on the matter is interesting but if you want to put it into Wikipedia it must have been published somewhere first. See the guideline at [[WP:No original research]]. Thank you. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:01, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

::I did not write it was a racist attack, I wrote it '''"seemed"''' like a racist attack in the context of the episode, Part of the joke is that it only seemed to be racist, but you don't even seem to get that. And are you seriously trying to tell me that you need an interpretation for that or that it is only my interpretation? It is exactly the intention of choosing that particular song in that situation. You don't need to be a reviewer or particularly smart to see that.
Bottom line, you don't like my addition for whatever self-righteous reason (maybe it has to do with political correctness, which obviously has no place in South Park)and you decided to remove it. My addition doesn't need any more of a source than the rest of the section, since it is what everyone can plainly see in the episode in question. I highly doubt you've ever seen it, as you would know that I'm right if you did. Considering that, I think you are not fit to judge this matter at all.
Fact is fact. The joke is intended that way, it's not my interpretation of the joke, it is the joke.
With an attitude of senseless control like this, it is no wonder that Wikipedia's reputation is getting worse and worse and that less and less people want to contribute.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 17:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Binksternet

2014-12-07T03:48:15Z

Die-yng: /* Reverting of changes to In Your Eyes song page */

User talk:Binksternet

2014-12-07T03:47:03Z

Die-yng:

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== Succession box ==

As you know, there has been a heated debate about succession due to redistricting involving house representatives and I want talk to someone reasonable about this. Right now as it stands, there is a new rule that came up this year that succession is not to be included in the infobox. However, it only seems to have been applied to [[Michael Grimm]] and [[Charles Rangel]] while the rest were left alone. Note that succession in the infobox is the way it has always been for years without question since the start of Wikipedia. The fact that so many articles were unchanged leads me to believe that the general consensus hasn't changed. The problem is the infobox, when referring to Rangel, was changed to "redistricted" while while every other house member who went through redistricting, is shown as being succeeded by someone else just fine. For example: [[Yvette Clarke]], [[Gregory Meeks]], [[Peter T. King]], [[Steve Israel]], and [[Nydia Velázquez]]. I have pointed out this issue on many discussion pages that it confuses readers and is inconsistent, but seems to be always ignored. Surely you can see the problem with this, right? [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:02, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:The solution is to fix all those other biographies with misleading progression boxes. Redistricting should reset the succession. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:05, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::Since there is so much redistricting, it makes you wonder if there is any need to mention anyone preceding or succeeding in the infobox at all. There would be so many articles on U.S. Representatives past and present it would be impossible to count them all. I think there needs to be a major discussion about this because this would change something that has been in place for so many years and would effect likely thousands of articles. I also think there is plenty of argument to say that succession does still apply due to the district number staying the same. If it is ultimately decided that the infoboxes should change, it needs to be enforced on every article. That is going to be hard to do. I just hope it isn't going to be applied to a few articles and not the rest. Inconsistency is not what Wikipedia needs. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 18:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::We should not shy away from fixing articles because of the large scope of the problem. I don't see anything particularly compelling about the district number as compared to the district geography and demographics. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
::::That's the problem. Do the articles actually need fixing in the first place? I don't see the issue with succession after redistricting. Most readers know that districts are listed by number, not physical geography. Since the district number never changes, it is not false or misleading to say one succeeded another in that district after redistricting. Answer this, if this is such an issue, why is it just being noticed now after so many years? I really do think suddenly changing this will cause a lot more problems than before. [[User:TL565|TL565]] ([[User talk:TL565|talk]]) 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I don't assign a higher value to the practice of ignoring a problem, if that practice is long established. No matter how old the problem is I think we should fix it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

== Succession ==

I rather think some [[Laugh-In]] writers have decided to join in the discussions about Congressperson succession where the two districts have ''naught'' to do with each other <g>. Cheers. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 21:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

:Regarding the editors who have offered their thoughts at [[:Template_talk:Succession_box#RfC]], I don't demean those who differ from me in their opinions. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

==Recovering Deleted Text (2) ==
Hi (again!),
How do I get back into my sandbox my contributions to 'Chirp' that you deleted a few weeks ago?
I have a copy of what I originally submitted, but there were a few amendments made later by other editors that perhaps should be retained.
I intend to submit it as a separate article, as agreed, but I also need to expand it here and there according to suggestions made.
[[User:D1ofBerks|D1ofBerks]] ([[User talk:D1ofBerks|talk]]) 15:24, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

:Your best bet is to sift through the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chirp&action=history page history of Chirp]. Everything is still there in the history; nothing has been hidden or deleted. You can also investigate the [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:D1ofBerks/sandbox&offset=&limit=500&action=history page history of your own sandbox], but you were the only contributor there. Good luck! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

== Why? ==

You said this "Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add soapboxing, promotional or advertising material to Wikipedia, as you did at Carson, North Dakota, you may be blocked from editing. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)" to me yes I did change Jimmy Fallon's page but that was o prove to teacher that wikipedia is a great website. Everything on Carson is true how would you know if it is right? Have you ever been there? I have I used to live there and I visit there alot! So I would like you to please tell me what was incorrect about Carson's page. Thank you
[[User:TSlag32|TSlag32]] ([[User talk:TSlag32|talk]]) 01:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)TSlag32

:Disrupting Wikipedia to prove something is a violation of [[WP:POINT]].
:The wording you added was promotional, puffing up a local business. Promotion is not allowed on Wikipedia. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 02:12, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

==Newly arrived Japanese revisionist editors==
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nanking_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=636129111] Please don't threaten people with blocks or bans just because they object to how an article is written. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 06:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::That new editor does not merely object to how the article is written. That editor is a Japanese revisionist, the sort of person who tries to Right Great Wrongs by starting with a huge falsehood. That editor is here to show that Japan was Asia's best friend from 1937 to 1945—a ridiculous notion. That editor is [[WP:NOTHERE]]; same with her meatpuppet friend. Neither one of them is going to have a long successful Wikipedia career. Nationalist Japanese right-wing revisionists are worse than the plague. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::: Binksternet, I'm growing concerned about this particular editor as well. It seems clear to me he has an agenda at cross purposes with the purposes of Wikipedia. From his user page, I suspect meat puppetry is taking place as well. I appreciate you helping to keep an eye on him. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 18:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Exactly. The most problematic new editor is a woman, by the way. There's a lot of offsite coordination going on, with [http://www.synopsis.today/news-opinion/wikiwars-the-ugly-truth/ this new opinion article] written by a female member of the Google+ group [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/communities/111582225314449540648 Voices of Japanese], the opinion text including a URL pointing to the problematic new user named LoveJapanChika. The Google+ group is filled with comments which fit the profile of right-wing Japanese nationalist revisionism, for instance, one person named Skales Sibbons says "Japan freed Asian countries during the war and suffered persecution afterwards."[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/1t69TzbUxR5] What nonsense! A group moderator named Chikako JTU (meaning Chikako of Japan Translation USA) wrote on November 16 that "Skales and I have found a valid legal defense NPOV argument for Iwane. We have formally presented it on the Talk page of this Wiki article",[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/110042228270703448759/posts/eZS9vkjqAtj] referring to [[Talk:Iwane Matsui]], a discussion page which was edited on November 16 by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634070789&oldid=512528000 NipponSun7] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIwane_Matsui&diff=634136911&oldid=634118144 LoveJapanChika]. The opinion piece was commented upon by Chikako JTU who said, "Mariko Ikeda has published the first in a series on anti-Japanese online propaganda. Her investigative report is about VOJ's own Skales and Chika and the forces of darkness they've been fighting..." on Wikipedia.[https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg] So we know that LoveJapanChika and NipponSun7 are coordinating their POV attack by way of offsite interaction. If some admin doesn't block these two very soon, the case must be brought to [[WP:ANI]]. These two are [[WP:NOTHERE]] to write an encyclopedia, and they plan to bring in more of the same. The [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] effort ought to be stopped as soon as possible. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 20:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for your vigilance, Binksternet. I haven't had time to look at the articles or the Wikiproject, but just checking out your links, as well as the very frank calls on [[User talk:LoveJapanChika]] for people to "help and bring their friends" is enough for an indef block of that user per [[WP:NOTHERE]]. Done. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 22:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC).
::::::Thank you very much, Bish. You did the right thing. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 23:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Just a heads up--though you probably have seen this already--but [https://plus.googleapis.com/wm/4/118250212148128359606/posts/PbdJKfD9Wtg this] series of posts by Chikako JTU and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALoveJapanChika&diff=636258557&oldid=636232110 this] edit on LoveChikaJapan's talk page both imply she's planning a lawsuit against Wikipedia. This, of course, touches on [[WP:NLT]], but should it be reported at this stage? [[User:Michitaro|Michitaro]] ([[User talk:Michitaro|talk]]) 16:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, I had seen both of those comments. The NLT solution is to block the editor but LoveJapanChika is already blocked. There is nothing to do at this time. I'm not worried about whatever legal case she is cooking up; it would be thrown out of court for having no basis. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 16:21, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Or possibly a lawsuit against me? It's a bit vague, and I agree there's nothing to do at the moment. I can't make myself care, so far… if they should become more explicit about lawsuits, I suppose I'll remove talkpage access. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 17:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC).
::: I can't tell for sure if [[User:Aemathisphd|Aemathisphd]] is in on the meat puppetry or not, but he seems at least sympathetic. But I may have a bias against people who are determined that one of the first things you know about them is that they have a Ph.D. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
::::Hey, I have a merit badge, does that count? In any case, Aemathisphd is a good egg, a professor teaching the Holocaust, not Holocaust denial. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::::Relieved to hear it; I'll cut some slack. Perhaps he didn't recognize the significance of the spurious anti-Japanese bias tag he reverted back into the article. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

==Incompetence page==

What exactly do you dispute about my edit? There were two components: 1) Making the types of incompetence sub-sections 2) Making them grammatical.

Do you dispute that (for example) the term "Language Difficulty Incompetence" is ungrammatical? If you do not like my synonyms, why not add your own instead of leaving the grammatical errors. [[User:Steeletrap|Steeletrap]] ([[User talk:Steeletrap|talk]]) 11:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You removed the vanchor templates which help the essay to work. You don't have consensus to change the essay. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 11:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

== Continued edit war... on Slipknot ==

Hi again – sorry to bother you, but you told this guy to go to the talk page and stop edit warring. You restored my edits to [[Slipknot (band)|Slipknot]] before the page was protected, and the moment the protection went down, you know what happened? He's gone and reverted my edits again. I tried talking about this on his [[User talk:TypeONegative13|talk page]] about three weeks ago, but he basically said that I was ruining ''his'' edits, that mine were wrong, and that I was unnecessarily taking out things that he deemed necessary. He never really give a proper explanation as to why he was reverting my edits. Again, I don't mean to bother you, but this guy just won't quit, and whilst I am trying to learn how to do an RfC as you said, as well as try and be cool and calm about this, I don't see how it will stop him. I don't think he understands that other people can actually edit the page.

I'm not trying to dob this guy in or anything, but you know the system better than me – and this guy is edit warring, and won't go to the [[Talk:Slipknot (band)|talk page]]. Could you please help me? I'm just trying to do what's best for the article. Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

:You both are of the opinion that you are doing what's best for the article. With a style-based dispute like this, nobody is ''right''. However, the status quo should be maintained in the absence of a new consensus to change the style. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks again, Binks. [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 00:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:::Hey, Binks – this isn't so much about an edit war, but about the two new members of Slipknot. The same person has now put on a source claiming that their identities have again been leaked. If this is so, can I please add them to the band members section (and, again, restore the edits to the section that this person has reverted) and the timeline? Ever since I looked at this source, I've been itching to put them in and put the timeline how I want it (which is basically how it was when I first edited the article). Thanks – with regards, [[User:4TheWynne|4TheWynne]] ([[User talk:4TheWynne|talk]]) 23:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Yes, the source is gossipy but more sources will quickly pick up on it and publish. I've known all along that Venturella and Weinberg were touring with Slipknot (I keep my ear to the ground in the world of touring audio engineers) but the Wikipedia rules needed to be followed. Once their names were published in a reliable source then we could put them into the band article, and the band into their biographies. But they are not necessarily band ''members''; the only thing that has been published is the fact that they are touring with the band. That makes them touring members for sure, not official band members. It also leaves unanswered the question of how much recording they did for the recent album. Today's news scoop doesn't address that part. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 00:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

:::::In case you're interested in this sort of thing, [http://roadcrewbooks.com/norm-costa-interview/ here's an interview] of the pissed-off drum tech named Norm Costa who posted the Slipknot personnel list. The interview is from July, long before he got fired and got revenge. It gives a little bit of an inside view of what a roadie thinks about his gig. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

== Revert of edits on Complex Systems ==

Hi Binksternet, thanks for the revert for an edit with no sources. Did you happen to notice that the section I edited, that section also has no sources? Did you bother to revert those edits, too? In other words: The entire section, if not the whole article, is a pile of horsehockey. But you revert me, well done, Wikipedian. Have a great day. {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:Sounds like more of that article should be thrown in the bit bucket. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 06:25, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::So? Revert me but not your fellow editors? What's the matter sport, you enjoy reverting anonymous editors, but other editors, who also post with no sources, you think it is ok to let them stay? Hypocrite! {{unsigned|50.26.122.51}}

:::The problem is that lots of Wikipedia was written in past years by people who were just shooting from the hip, like you did yesterday. In recent years the bar has risen, and the policy of [[WP:No original research]] is enforced more vigorously. Ideally, all that older text has been filtered through the lenses of subsequent editors who would have changed or deleted poorly written stuff. So the idea is that the surviving text has the blessing of everybody interested in the topic. Of course this idealism of mine doesn't hold up everywhere; at [[complex systems]] the initial contributor's flawed text has remained largely undisturbed. Yesterday [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Complex_systems&diff=prev&oldid=636278667 I removed a paragraph] that looked like it was not based on the literature. If you see more of this kind of stuff, feel free to remove it. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 14:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::::Good answer, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

== Possible Sock Puppet ==

Hi Binks: I don't know what you all over here on WP consider a sock, but the behavior of this one [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Blind_Unicorn_Hunter user's contributions] strongly suggest a lot of experience with wiki which wouldn't be expected in an account so new. I saw his new account because he removed information from registered sex offender [[Doyle_Doss]]'s page. Any help you can render as always ! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 17:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks. I will check into this. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 17:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::This is new territory for me; I tried to strike the right balance at the Doss biography by referring to the [[Megan's Law]] website which certainly lists him. Regarding whether B.U.H. is a sockpuppet or merely an experienced editor starting a new account, I cannot see the harm, but I will keep an eye out. I am pretty sure his intersection with Doss was merely part of being a [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges recent changes patroller], since he shows a string of edits reverting very recent additions which he thought were problematic. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 18:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

:I have no thoughts on the possible sock puppetry, but I had to revert the revert of Doss's criminal background just now. And something about the whole article as originally written reeks of self-promotion. Still, his company was mentioned in NYT, so I don't think I can say he's not notable. --[[User:Yaush|Yaush]] ([[User talk:Yaush|talk]]) 22:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

::Yeah, [[User_talk:Binksternet/Archive26#A_very_odd_biography|we talked about this issue]] 15 months ago, including a link to the AfD which came up no consensus, effectively keeping the article. The NYT mention is hard to ignore. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 22:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:::The NYT article is straight from his press release. The writer even says that he saw the press release and contacted the maker. Doss is not notable except in his own mind. I still have trouble believing that other editors couldn't read/see what was in front of their eyes. The only reason he has an NYT mention is that he sent them a press release and they called him back. That's not notability - that's product placement. His products are only available through his website. He uses the wiki article to impress people, and given that he is formally listed at Megan's and everyone up here knows what he did only makes the continued presence of that article a festering wound to people who have been harmed by his actions - not the least of which the under 14 year old rape victim. Perhaps I failed to be forceful enough 15 months ago - but this guy doesn't deserve to be listed as notable at all ever, despite the ONE listing in NYT. Geeze if that's all it took to be in Wikipedia as a notable, I have a photo of myself from NYT (from the accompanying article) on my website. Research the rest of me and write me a really snazzy biography... high points: four times on cover of Good Housekeeping, multiple publications including a Facts-on-File book, etc. I promise you it will be a lot more interesting and a lot more notable than the article under discussion. PS the editor who started this page, has a long history of blocks and odd behavior, for example see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Richard_Arthur_Norton_%281958-_%29#Re:%20Your%20comments%20at%20Robin%20Williams%20talk%20page here]. Cheers! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 16:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]] ==

Hi Bink, thanks for your recent edit on ''[[Hotter than July (album)|Hotter than July]]'' I was gonna do some cutesy thing like here's a plate of cookies for you but I don't know how to do it; so if I find out I owe you that plate of cookies OK? (: [[User:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|Rihanna-RiRi-fan]] ([[User talk:Rihanna-RiRi-fan|talk]]) 21:23, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:Thanks for the thought! [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
:WHY do you lot allow to keep pop-funk when the source doesn't explicitly call it pop-funk; the correct thing should be pop and R&B as there is more R&B on the album than funk — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/5.81.225.225|5.81.225.225]] ([[User talk:5.81.225.225|talk]]) 20:26, 4 December 2014 (UTC) 

== Silverchair and grunge ==

You recently reverted my change to the [[Silverchair]] page. I need to clarify that I wasn't trying to be biased here. My reasoning for the change was that "grunge" seems like more of a label rather than a genre. It seems to me like more of a label given to hard rock/metal/punk/alternative bands from the [[Seattle]] area during the late 1980s and early 1990s rather than its own genre. [[Silverchair]], being from [[Australia]] and releasing their debut album in 1995, didn't really fit this label to me. They seem like more of one of the so called [[post-grunge]] bands emulating the [[Seattle]] sound. However, you have been editing Wikipedia pages much longer than I have, so if you feel I am wrong, let me know and I will not make this change to the page again.[[Special:Contributions/98.23.14.214|98.23.14.214]] ([[User talk:98.23.14.214|talk]]) 01:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:You and I can sit down over some brews and talk about what we think are the right genres for Silverchair but Wikipedia goes by published reviews rather than the opinions of editors. If you can show that published reviews do not describe the band as an early grunge phenom growing into post-grunge as time went by, then you should change the article text. Right now, the article text says that the band was grunge at first. If I look at the sources will I find this idea supported? [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 07:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

== The vs. the in band names ==

My change to [[Led Zeppelin]]'s page has been reverted at least three times now. All I did was capitalize the T in "The" for [[The Pretty Things]] as it should be in the section "[[Led_Zeppelin#.22The_Biggest_Band_in_the_World|The Biggest Band in the World: 1971–75]]". Their band name is "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". They are similar to [[The Rolling Stones]], [[The Hives]] and [[The Killers]] in this regard. I even cited the band's official website in my most recent edit where it is displayed as "The Pretty Things" on their welcome page. You pointed me to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names]] that states:

"''An authoritative source will determine whether the word "the" is part of a band's name. For example, it should be included in the case of [[The Velvet Underground]], but not in that of [[Black Sabbath]]. For articles named after a band, a redirect (or disambiguation) should be created with the alternative name (with or without "the").''"

The band's name agrees with the example given in the second sentence, I fail to see why the "The" in their name should not be capitalized. It's even listed on their page here on Wikipedia as "The Pretty Things", not "Pretty Things". If the band's own website and its Wikipedia page don't count as "an authoritative source" to back up my edit, what does? [[User:Jamrhein71|Jamrhein71]] ([[User talk:Jamrhein71|talk]]) 18:53, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

:Right, the definite article ''the'' is most certainly part of the band name. Nobody is denying that. Instead, your attention was directed to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Names (definite article)]] which says that the definite article ''the'', when part of the band name, should be presented in lower case in running prose. The guideline says that "'''the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose'''" and it gives as examples the Beatles and the Moody Blues, two bands which are usually styled "The Beatles" and "The Moody Blues" when their name appears at the beginning of a sentence, or is first in a list. So if the name of the band occurs somewhere else then it starts with lower case ''the''. However, names of songs and albums retain their capitalisation, to make some like the following:
:*{{xt|One of the albums by [[the Beatles]] was named [[The Beatles (album)|''The Beatles'']], released in 1968.}}
:This style was argued over the course of months, with plenty of people saying it should not be implemented, but many more people saying it should be. The style follows exactly the Chicago Manual of Style and many more respected publishing houses in Great Britain. It does not follow some other style guides and other publications' in-house style. So there ya go: Wikipedia decided to streamline things so that only of those two style would be used. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 19:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

==Please help explain NOR to a Swede==
I'm having a great deal of trouble explaing [[WP:NOR]] to an editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Willow_Creek,_California&oldid=636583027&diff=prev who...] keeps adding NOR to weather of northwestern California. He keeps trying to compare this town to that town, even after I explained it a couple times, he got haughty and now just reverts my edits. (Boring!) Commons is so much simpler. Don't ever hesitate to ask me for help over there; you're so helpful here! [[User:Ellin Beltz|Ellin Beltz]] ([[User talk:Ellin Beltz|talk]]) 00:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
:I did more than explain; I removed a bunch of NOR violations on other articles he touched, and I directed him to comb through his contributions to remove more of them. If he doesn't work to understand the problem then he's not going to last very long here. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:41, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:::I apologise for any indiscretion caused by my previous angry choice of words, however the deal is that I will not write (demonstratingly) a single word (not even referenced) aside from the always-referenced weatherbox in the future. I will also never again touch anything on this Wiki of your precious California. I can also even vow never to visit your state if you want to. What I really didn't like was the threat of a ban if I retrospectively didn't submit and change everything I did. You surely don't have bots who can selectively keep sourced materials for that even if you were that desperate? So, just move along from here. [[User:Lommaren|Lommaren]] ([[User talk:Lommaren|talk]]) 11:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

::::It would be more constructive to continue with your factual climate descriptions based on references, while ending (and retroactively fixing) your unreferenced climate analysis. My strong words were intended to get your attention, which it appears they did. I did not want to cause an overreaction. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 15:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Who stole feminism? ==

You didn't address [http://www.friesian.com/times.htm this source] before your removal. I can use it standalone with direct quotes if you like. {{tq| And here, although Hirshman accuses Sommers of stopping in the middle of a sentence, it is Hirshman who doesn't seem to have read through the entire quote from Blackstone. For Blackstone, having noted that the old common law allowed to husbands the power of "domestic chastisement, in the same moderation that a man is allowed to correct his apprentices or children," goes on to say that, "But with us, in the politer reign of Charles the Second, this power of correction began to be doubted; and a wife may now have the security of the peace against her husband" }} I thought paraphrasing would be better. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 04:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

:Let's keep discussion off my talk page since the issue is of interest to more people than just you and I. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet#top|talk]]) 04:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Straw Poll ==

There is a straw poll that may interest you regarding the proper use of "Religion =" in infoboxes of atheists.

The straw poll is at [[Template talk:Infobox person#Straw poll]].

--[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 09:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Nominations for the Military history Wikiproject's Historian and Newcomer of the Year Awards are now open! ==

The Military history Wikiproject has opened nominations for the '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_historian_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military historian of the year]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Nominations_for_military_history_newcomer_of_the_year_for_2014_now_open!|Military history newcomer of the year]]'''. Nominations will be accepted until 13 December at 23:59 GMT, with voting to begin at 0:00 GMT 14 December. The voting will conclude on 21 December. [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 01:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


==Reverting of changes to In Your Eyes song page ==
To be honest I've no idea why you removed this, next time it might be a good idea to explain how my contribution is any less relevant than the rest of the section about the South Park episode. I've no idea whether you know this episode, bhe song Shock the Monkey is clearly chosen to further accentuate the awkwardness of what Stan is doing and you clearly see how embarrassed Token and Wendy are, because of the racist implication, even if it was unintentional on Stan's part. So, to be honest, either the whole section about the South Park episode should be removed, or you include the whole (bad) joke and not just the part that you deem acceptable. South Park is known for his crass humour and as such a joke like this is pretty common and it clearly has to do with replacing In Your Eyes with Shock the Monkey, so it is as relevant or not as the rest of the section.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 03:47, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

In Your Eyes (Peter Gabriel song)

2014-12-06T21:33:32Z

Die-yng: /* Say Anything... */

{{Use dmy dates|date=March 2014}}
{{Use British English|date=August 2013}}
{{Infobox single
| Name = In Your Eyes
| Cover = pgiye.jpg
| Artist = [[Peter Gabriel]]
| from Album = [[So (album)|So]]
| B-side =
| Released = 2 September 1986
| Format = 7" single, 12" single, 1988 promo CD single
| Recorded = 1985
| Genre = [[Worldbeat]], [[art rock]], [[pop rock]]
| Length = 5:29 (7" LP version) 6:15 (12" single mix) 7:14 (12" special mix) 4:58 (7" promo special mix)
| Label = [[Geffen Records|Geffen]]
| Writer = Peter Gabriel
| Producer = Peter Gabriel, [[Bill Laswell]] and [[Daniel Lanois]]
| Certification = Gold ([[RIAA]])
| Last single = "[[Big Time (Peter Gabriel song)|Big Time]]" (1986)
| This single = "'''In Your Eyes'''" (1986)
| Next single = "[[Red Rain (song)|Red Rain]]" (1987)
}}

"'''In Your Eyes'''" is a song by British musician [[Peter Gabriel]] from his 1986 album ''[[So (album)|So]]'' with [[Youssou N'Dour]] singing some choruses translated into his native [[Wolof language|Wolof]]. The track was the main-theme song of the 1989 [[teen drama]] film ''[[Say Anything...]]'' starring [[Ione Skye]] and [[John Cusack]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.nbcnews.com/entertainment/john-cusack-relives-say-anything-boombox-moment-peter-gabriel-1C6356590|title=John Cusack relives 'Say Anything' boombox moment with Peter Gabriel|publisher=[[NBC]]|date=9 October 2012|accessdate=25 October 2013}}</ref>

The single only was released in North-America as the third single from "So" in the U.S., the song achieved strong radio airplay and a constant [[MTV]] rotation. It [[List of number-one mainstream rock hits (United States)#1986|reached #1]] on the [[Billboard (magazine)|''Billboard'']] [[Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks|Mainstream Rock Tracks]] on September, 13 of the same year,<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.allmusic.com/artist/peter-gabriel-mn0000842802/awards|title=Allmusic: Peter Gabriel (Awards)|publisher=[[Allmusic]]|accessdate=25 October 2013}}</ref> it also peaked #26 on the [[Billboard Hot 100|''Billboard'' Hot 100]] in November 1986.<ref name=Dean>{{cite book |title= Rock N' Roll Gold Rush |last= Dean |first= Maury |authorlink= Maury Dean |coauthors= |year= 2003 |publisher= Algora |location= |isbn= 0-87586-207-1 |url= |page= 222 }}</ref> It was not released as a single in the [[United Kingdom|UK]]. However, Gabriel did release two extended versions of the song as a 12" vinyl single in the US. The first (the Single Mix) ran 6:15. The second (the Special Mix) ran 7:14.

The song was the finale of the Secret World Tour and is the final track on the 1994 ''[[Secret World Live]]'' album, where it is over 11 minutes long and includes the extra lyrics from the Special Mix, in addition to solos by the other singers and players. It was included on the [[United States|US]] version of his 2003 compilation ''[[Hit (album)|Hit]]'', but not on the [[Europe]]an or [[Japan]]ese versions.

In 2005, the song brought Gabriel his first [[Gold single]], certified in the U.S. by the [[RIAA]].<ref>[http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?table=SEARCH_RESULTS Peter Gabriel – "In Your Eyes"]. RIAA. If necessary, click Advanced, then click Format, then select Single, then click SEARCH</ref>

==Licensed uses==
In 1988 (at the end of the [[1987 NFL season]]), [[NFL on NBC|NBC Sports]] used "In Your Eyes" in for the prologue (narrated by [[Dick Enberg]]) of the [[NFL playoffs, 1987–88#AFC: Denver Broncos 38.2C Cleveland Browns 33|AFC Championship Game]] between the [[1987 Denver Broncos season|Denver Broncos]] and [[1987 Cleveland Browns season|Cleveland Browns]].

The theatrical trailer for the 1993 film ''[[Benny & Joon]]'' features ''In Your Eyes''.<ref>{{cite web| url= http://www.soundtrack.net/trailers/composer-trailer.php?id=72 | title= Peter Gabriel - Music that has been used in trailers | publisher= SoundtrackNet | accessdate=29 September 2011}}</ref>

In the 2005 ''[[Cold Case (TV series)|Cold Case]]'' episode [[Cold Case (season 3)|entitled "Family"]], the song appears towards the end as a 1988 murder case is resolved.

The song is featured in the 2008 film ''[[The Rocker (film)|The Rocker]]'' when A.D.D. plays their first gig at a high school prom.

Sampled portions of the song can be heard in the 2010 [[Girl Talk (musician)|Girl Talk]] album ''[[All Day (Girl Talk album)|All Day]]''.

The song was also featured at the end of the series premiere to ''[[Felicity (TV series)|Felicity]]'' in 1998 on the [[The WB]].

===''Say Anything...''===
The song was used twice in the 1989 US [[Cameron Crowe]] film, ''[[Say Anything...]]'', as well as in its [[Film trailer|trailer]]. An iconic scene from the film occurs when broken-hearted [[John Cusack|Lloyd Dobler]] serenades his ex-girlfriend, [[Ione Skye|Diane Court]], outside her bedroom window by holding a [[boombox]] up above his head and playing the song for her. Repopularized by its usage in the film, the song reentered the US charts but narrowly failed to crack the top 40 in its second run, reaching as high as #41.<ref name=Dean /> Peter Gabriel asked to see Crowe's film and Crowe asked the production company to send Gabriel a rough cut. Gabriel approved the use of his song, but told Crowe that he was uneasy about the overdose of the main character at the end; the studio had erroneously sent Gabriel the film [[Wired (film)|''Wired'']] instead.<ref>[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098258/trivia IMDB.com entry for "Say Anything" | Trivia] Retrieved 6 September 2000.</ref>

The song's use in that iconic scene has been parodied in popular satirical shows. In the ''[[American Dad]]'' episode "[[It's Good to Be Queen]]", Stan Smith, in an attempt to get Francine to forgive him, forces [[Gabriel Byrne]]—whom he mistakenly believes to be Peter Gabriel—to sing "In Your Eyes" while holding the actor above his head. In the ''[[South Park]]'' episode "[[Raisins (South Park episode)|Raisins]]", when Wendy breaks up with Stan, Bebe tells him to hold up a boombox playing Peter Gabriel outside Wendy's window, to try to win her back. Instead of playing "In Your Eyes," he plays Gabriel's decidedly unromantic "[[Shock the Monkey]]"which in this case seemed like a racist attack, since unknown to Stan Wendy was with her new boyfriend Token Black.

The song was also briefly used during an August 2006 episode of ''[[The Daily Show]]'' in a Toss segment to ''[[The Colbert Report]]'', in which [[Stephen Colbert]] holds up a boombox in an attempt to stop [[Jon Stewart]] skipping to the next segment.<ref>[http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-23-2006/daily-colbert---in-your-eyes The Daily Show with Jon Stewart: In Your Eyes] The Daily Show. Retrieved 24 November 2011</ref>

[[Joseph Gordon-Levitt]] did a parody during an appearance on ''[[Saturday Night Live]]'' when he hosted on 21 November 2009. {{citation needed|date=March 2014}}

On [[Girls (and Boys) On Film|Season 4 Episode 15]] of ''[[Glee (TV series)|Glee]]'', [[Will Schuester]] serenade this song to Emma holding a boombox iconic posed on his arms ups. {{citation needed|date=March 2014}}

In a September 2012 interview with ''[[Rolling Stone]]'', discussing the 25th anniversary of ''[[So (album)|So]]'', Gabriel commented on the cultural impact of the scene, "It definitely gave [the song] a second life, because now it's so often parodied in comedy shows and it is one of the modern day ''[[Romeo and Juliet]]'' balcony clichés. I've talked to [[John Cusack]] about that. We're sort of trapped together in a minuscule moment of contemporary culture."<ref>[http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/q-a-peter-gabriel-reflects-on-his-1986-landmark-album-so-20120904 Q&A: Peter Gabriel Reflects On His Landmark 1986 Album ''So''] Retrieved 4 September 2012</ref> In October 2012, as Gabriel played the first few bars of the song during a performance at the [[Hollywood Bowl]], Cusack walked onto the stage, handed him a [[boombox]] and took a bow, before quickly walking off again. [[Cameron Crowe]] was also present at the concert and later tweeted "Peter Gabriel and John Cusack on stage together at the Hollywood Bowl tonight. Won't forget that... ever."<ref>[http://gawker.com/5949918/peter-gabriels-performance-of-in-your-eyes-interrupted-by-john-cusack-holding-a-boombox Gawker.com: Peter Gabriel's Performance of In Your Eyes Interrupted By John Cusack Holding A Boombox] Retrieved 8 October 2012</ref>

==Personnel==
*[[Manu Katché]] – [[Drum kit|drums]], [[talking drum]], [[percussion instrument|percussion]]
*[[Jerry Marotta]] – [[Drum|additional drums]]
*[[Larry Klein]] – [[bass guitar|bass]]
*[[Tony Levin]] – bass
*[[David Rhodes (musician)|David Rhodes]] – [[guitar]]s, [[Backing vocalist|backing]] [[Singing|vocals]]
*[[Peter Gabriel]] – [[Lead vocalist|lead]] and backing vocals, [[Fairlight CMI|CMI]], [[piano]], [[synthesizer]]
*[[Richard Tee]] – [[piano]]
*[[Youssou N'Dour]] – guest vocals
*[[Michael Been]] – backing vocals
*[[Jim Kerr]] – backing vocals
*[[Ronnie Bright]] – [[Bass (voice type)|bass vocals]]

== Cover versions ==
* [[Neal Morse]] recorded an acoustic version of the song, along with Solsbury Hill, for an Inner Circle (fan club) release.
* A [[pop punk]] rendition of the song was released by the band [[SR-71 (band)|SR-71]] on their third album ''[[Here We Go Again (SR-71 album)|Here We Go Again]]''.
* An acoustic cover was performed by [[Darren Hayes]] and released on the "[[I Miss You (Darren Hayes song)|I Miss You]]" single.
* [[Jeffrey Gaines]] performed both a studio and acoustic cover.
* Christian singer-songwriter [[Nichole Nordeman]] covered this song in her third studio album titled [[Woven & Spun]].
* [[Jill Parr]] covered it on her self-titled debut album.
* [[Aaron Lewis]] of [[Staind]] performed a cover of the song with his previous band [[J-Cat]].
* [[Lori McKenna]] contributed a cover of the song to the 2005 compilation ''High School Reunion''.
* [[Marilyn Scott]] covered this song in the 2005 album ''Handpicke''.
* [[Paco Estrada]] often plays ''In Your Eyes'' as a tag to his song ''Breaking Down'' at live concerts.
* [[Sara Bareilles]] covered this song in a live session that is included on the bonus disc to ''[[Little Voice (album)|Little Voice]]'' and the B-side to the "[[Bottle It Up]]" single.
* [[Heart (band)|Heart]] guitarist and vocalist [[Nancy Wilson (guitarist)|Nancy Wilson]] covered this song on her 1999 solo live album ''Live at [[McCabe's Guitar Shop]]''.
* Sludge metal band [[Mouth of the Architect]] covered the song on their 2010 EP ''The Violence Beneath''.
* [[Renée Fleming]] covered this song in the 2010 album ''[[Dark Hope]]''.
* [[Quietdrive]] released a cover on their 2011 album "Your Record/Our Spin"
* [[Matthew Morrison]] (as his character [[Will Schuester]]) and the cast of TV series ''[[Glee (TV series)|Glee]]'' performed the song in the 15th episode of [[Glee (season 4)|season 4]], "[[Girls (and Boys) On Film]]".<ref>http://www.mjsbigblog.com/glee-season-4-spoilers-girls-and-boys-on-film-episode-15-details.htm</ref><ref>http://www.gleethemusic.com/us/episode/girls-and-boys-film</ref>
* Christian singer-songwriter Tiffany Arbuckle Lee, stage name [[Plumb (singer)|Plumb]], covered this song in a special version of the song "I Want You Here".
* Dianne Reeves recorded a version on her 1999 album "Bridges".
* [[Banks (singer)|Banks]] released a studio cover of his song.

==Notable performances==
On the ''So'' tour, it was performed with an extended vocal duet with [[Youssou N'Dour]], mainly, during his North-American concerts.<ref>[http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/jun/15/worldmusic.musicmonthly2 Soundtrack of my life: Youssou N'Dour] The Guardian. Retrieved 24 November 2011</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.genesis-news.com/c-Peter-Gabriel-So-live-This-Way-Up-Tour-19861987-s479.html|title=Peter Gabriel On Tour (5): This Way Up Tour 1986-87: Big Time (Success)|publisher=genesis-news.com|date=|accessdate=25 October 2013}}</ref>

In 1993, Gabriel performed the song on ''[[Saturday Night Live]]'', during [[Saturday Night Live (season 18)|its 18th season]].<ref>[http://snlarc.jt.org/ep.php?i=199304108 SNL Archives | Episode.] Retrieved 27 August 2007.</ref>

On April 10, 2014, Gabriel performed the song with an extended vocal duet with N'Dour as Gabriel was being inducted into the [[Rock and Roll Hall of Fame]]. The event, which took place at the [[Barclays Center]] in Brooklyn, NY, was filmed and was later televised in late May 2014 on the [[HBO]] cable channel.

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
* {{MetroLyrics song|peter-gabriel|in-your-eyes}}

{{Peter Gabriel}}

[[Category:Peter Gabriel songs]]
[[Category:Songs written by Peter Gabriel]]
[[Category:Billboard Mainstream Rock number-one singles]]
[[Category:Song recordings produced by Daniel Lanois]]
[[Category:1986 singles]]

User talk:Die-yng

2014-12-06T16:53:16Z

Die-yng: /* Talk page access revoked */

User talk:Die-yng

2014-12-06T16:52:50Z

Die-yng: /* Blocked */

== Topic ban ==

{{Ivmbox
|2=Gnome-emblem-important.svg
|imagesize=50px
|1=The following sanction has been imposed on you:

{{Talkquote|1=Indefinite [[WP:TBAN|topic ban]] from all pages and discussion related to GamerGate and Brianna Wu, broadly construed.}}

You have been sanctioned for personal attacks on other editors, inappropriate comments requiring revision deletion, and having an inappropriate username for editing articles about people who have received death threats.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an [[Wikipedia:Administrators#Involved admins|uninvolved administrator]] under the authority of the community's decision at [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate]], and the procedure described at [[Wikipedia:General sanctions]]. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions for that decision. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the [[Wikipedia:Banning policy|banning policy]] to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction at the [[WP:AN|administrators' noticeboard]]. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]] ([[User talk:Gamaliel|talk]]) 22:57, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
}}

== Talk page access revoked ==
<div class="notice" style="background:#ffe0e0; border:1px solid #886644; padding:0.5em; margin:0.5em auto; min-height: 40px"> [[Image:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]] You have been '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' temporarily from editing for [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|make useful contributions]]. Your ability to edit your talk page has also been revoked. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you should read the [[Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then contact administrators by submitting a request to the ''[[WP:UTRS|Unblock Ticket Request System]]''. </div>

Following your last post, I've removed talk page access. To confirm, after your block expires you are completely banned from any mention whatsoever from anything remotely related to GamerGate or Brianna Wu. This restriction applies to anywhere on this website. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 00:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Die-yng

2014-12-06T16:52:36Z

Die-yng: /* November 2014 */

==Blocked==
I've blocked you for 72 hours for violating the [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]] policy by posting and restoring [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brianna_Wu&diff=632739499&oldid=632519338 an unsourced personal attack] on the subject of the article. [[User:Dreadstar|Dreadstar]] [[User talk:Dreadstar|☥]] 21:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

{{unblock reviewed| reason=I would understand the block, if a)my post was intended as an attack on Brianna Wu, which it wasn't. Simply stating that someone just claims something without proof is no attack on this person.
And b) I also provided a link to the source for my opinion, a interview with Brianna Wu that was posted by the official channel of the talk show "David Pakman Show " on the 27th of October 2014.
Mrs. Wu makes all these claims in the interview and has no satisfying answer when asked how she comes to this conclusion or if there's any evidence.
I realize that this is a hot topic, and if you would be willing to tell me how my post would not be considered an attack on a person, I would be very willing to follow.

I've read the guideline, but I can see no violation of it in my post. Especially since I did not simply restore my previous post, but changed it to be less critical of Mrs. Wu. And again, my claim is not unsourced. Certainly an interview where the person herself says exactly what I attribute to her is a reliable source in this case.

In addition, I would also c) understand this action (the block), if I had actually posted any of this '''in''' the biography, which I did not. I only posted it on the talk page. I know the guideline is for '''any''' Wikipedia page, but I still think there is a difference between the actual biography and the talk-page thereof.

And let me add that in the last few days, 7 of my edits have been deleted, something that has never happened to me before, neither on the German Wikipedia, nor here.
Six of those edits were done by [[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] and I couldn't be sure if any of those were done for anything but spite, because I had dared to question his neutrality on the topic of #gamergate. He removed one of my posts with the reasoning that I was posting inside an old topic, when there were posts in the very same paragraph, done at the same day my post was made and one by [[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] himself on November the 5th, a day after I made my original post.
Given that, I suspected a biased removal of my edits and checked each one, changed them when necessary and then re-installed those I felt were removed without an actual reason.

With all of the above as a reason, I ask for leniency and removal of my block.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng#top|talk]]) 21:54, 6 November 2014 (UTC)|decline= Based on your unblock request, it seems you don't entirely understand why you have been blocked. For the avoidance of doubt, you have blocked for making attacks on a living person. In your unblock request, you make further attacks, this time against Ryulong, who you accuse of being motivated by 'spite'. In this context, I'm declining your request to be unblocked. Before making a new unblock request, I suggest you read [[WP:NOTTHEM]]. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 22:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)}}

== Topic ban ==

{{Ivmbox
|2=Gnome-emblem-important.svg
|imagesize=50px
|1=The following sanction has been imposed on you:

{{Talkquote|1=Indefinite [[WP:TBAN|topic ban]] from all pages and discussion related to GamerGate and Brianna Wu, broadly construed.}}

You have been sanctioned for personal attacks on other editors, inappropriate comments requiring revision deletion, and having an inappropriate username for editing articles about people who have received death threats.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an [[Wikipedia:Administrators#Involved admins|uninvolved administrator]] under the authority of the community's decision at [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate]], and the procedure described at [[Wikipedia:General sanctions]]. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions for that decision. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the [[Wikipedia:Banning policy|banning policy]] to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction at the [[WP:AN|administrators' noticeboard]]. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]] ([[User talk:Gamaliel|talk]]) 22:57, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
}}

== Talk page access revoked ==
<div class="notice" style="background:#ffe0e0; border:1px solid #886644; padding:0.5em; margin:0.5em auto; min-height: 40px"> [[Image:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]] You have been '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' temporarily from editing for [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|make useful contributions]]. Your ability to edit your talk page has also been revoked. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you should read the [[Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then contact administrators by submitting a request to the ''[[WP:UTRS|Unblock Ticket Request System]]''. </div>

Following your last post, I've removed talk page access. To confirm, after your block expires you are completely banned from any mention whatsoever from anything remotely related to GamerGate or Brianna Wu. This restriction applies to anywhere on this website. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 00:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Die-yng

2014-12-06T16:52:18Z

Die-yng: /* Notice */

== November 2014 ==
[[Image:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]]. I noticed that you made a comment on the page [[:Talk:Gamergate controversy]] that didn't seem very [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil]], so it has been removed. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User_talk:Gamaliel|my talk page]]. Thank you.  [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]] ([[User talk:Gamaliel|talk]]) 06:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The issue here is that you are responding to threads that in the speed of how things are going on the talk page have already ended (two days is already considered pretty much over) so there is absolutely no purpose for you to add onto them your various points which violate [[WP:NOTFORUM]] amongst other guidelines and policies.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 21:10, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

==Blocked==
I've blocked you for 72 hours for violating the [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]] policy by posting and restoring [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brianna_Wu&diff=632739499&oldid=632519338 an unsourced personal attack] on the subject of the article. [[User:Dreadstar|Dreadstar]] [[User talk:Dreadstar|☥]] 21:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

{{unblock reviewed| reason=I would understand the block, if a)my post was intended as an attack on Brianna Wu, which it wasn't. Simply stating that someone just claims something without proof is no attack on this person.
And b) I also provided a link to the source for my opinion, a interview with Brianna Wu that was posted by the official channel of the talk show "David Pakman Show " on the 27th of October 2014.
Mrs. Wu makes all these claims in the interview and has no satisfying answer when asked how she comes to this conclusion or if there's any evidence.
I realize that this is a hot topic, and if you would be willing to tell me how my post would not be considered an attack on a person, I would be very willing to follow.

I've read the guideline, but I can see no violation of it in my post. Especially since I did not simply restore my previous post, but changed it to be less critical of Mrs. Wu. And again, my claim is not unsourced. Certainly an interview where the person herself says exactly what I attribute to her is a reliable source in this case.

In addition, I would also c) understand this action (the block), if I had actually posted any of this '''in''' the biography, which I did not. I only posted it on the talk page. I know the guideline is for '''any''' Wikipedia page, but I still think there is a difference between the actual biography and the talk-page thereof.

And let me add that in the last few days, 7 of my edits have been deleted, something that has never happened to me before, neither on the German Wikipedia, nor here.
Six of those edits were done by [[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] and I couldn't be sure if any of those were done for anything but spite, because I had dared to question his neutrality on the topic of #gamergate. He removed one of my posts with the reasoning that I was posting inside an old topic, when there were posts in the very same paragraph, done at the same day my post was made and one by [[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] himself on November the 5th, a day after I made my original post.
Given that, I suspected a biased removal of my edits and checked each one, changed them when necessary and then re-installed those I felt were removed without an actual reason.

With all of the above as a reason, I ask for leniency and removal of my block.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng#top|talk]]) 21:54, 6 November 2014 (UTC)|decline= Based on your unblock request, it seems you don't entirely understand why you have been blocked. For the avoidance of doubt, you have blocked for making attacks on a living person. In your unblock request, you make further attacks, this time against Ryulong, who you accuse of being motivated by 'spite'. In this context, I'm declining your request to be unblocked. Before making a new unblock request, I suggest you read [[WP:NOTTHEM]]. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 22:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)}}

== Topic ban ==

{{Ivmbox
|2=Gnome-emblem-important.svg
|imagesize=50px
|1=The following sanction has been imposed on you:

{{Talkquote|1=Indefinite [[WP:TBAN|topic ban]] from all pages and discussion related to GamerGate and Brianna Wu, broadly construed.}}

You have been sanctioned for personal attacks on other editors, inappropriate comments requiring revision deletion, and having an inappropriate username for editing articles about people who have received death threats.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an [[Wikipedia:Administrators#Involved admins|uninvolved administrator]] under the authority of the community's decision at [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate]], and the procedure described at [[Wikipedia:General sanctions]]. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions for that decision. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the [[Wikipedia:Banning policy|banning policy]] to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction at the [[WP:AN|administrators' noticeboard]]. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]] ([[User talk:Gamaliel|talk]]) 22:57, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
}}

== Talk page access revoked ==
<div class="notice" style="background:#ffe0e0; border:1px solid #886644; padding:0.5em; margin:0.5em auto; min-height: 40px"> [[Image:Stop x nuvola with clock.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon with clock]] You have been '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' temporarily from editing for [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|make useful contributions]]. Your ability to edit your talk page has also been revoked. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you should read the [[Wikipedia:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then contact administrators by submitting a request to the ''[[WP:UTRS|Unblock Ticket Request System]]''. </div>

Following your last post, I've removed talk page access. To confirm, after your block expires you are completely banned from any mention whatsoever from anything remotely related to GamerGate or Brianna Wu. This restriction applies to anywhere on this website. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 00:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Die-yng

2014-12-06T16:51:20Z

Die-yng: ←Created page with 'As for my field of knowledge, I'm no scholar, but have a deep interest in history, primarily German and European history during the era of the House of Hohenstau...'

As for my field of knowledge, I'm no scholar, but have a deep interest in history, primarily German and European history during the era of the House of Hohenstaufen.
I also know my way around video games, comicbooks, SF and Fantasy in literature and film and anime/manga.

Well, I initially wanted to contribute more than before to wikipedia and had created the account with that reason in mind.
It turned out that I didn't have as much time at hand as I thought and frankly the reaction to the last time I attempted to be part of the discussion on a topic by some not so neutral admins, has pretty much burned me for now.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 16:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Repressed memory

2014-12-06T16:44:13Z

Die-yng: /* Newly created article: Forensics of repressed memory */

{{talkheader}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell |1=
{{WikiProject Medicine |class=C |importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Neuroscience |class=C |importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Psychology |class=C |importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Cognitive science |class=C |importance=Mid |attention=y}}
{{Template:WikiProject Skepticism |class=C|importance=High}}
}}
{{archivebox|
* [[/Archive 1|Archive 1]]}}

==This article is dangerously irresponsible==
Repressed Memory is rejected by mainstream science. The article looks like it has been written by advocates of repressed memory therapy rather than objective editors. For any other subject this wouldn't be bad, but this is frankly dangerous. Editors should step in and do something.[[Special:Contributions/173.76.92.94|173.76.92.94]] ([[User talk:173.76.92.94|talk]]) 20:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

==Repressed Memories are False==
Studies done by Steve Porter at UBC have demonstrated that false memories can be suggested to participants who in turn will wager money on them that they are true even though they have been created by the experimenters. As a victim of child sexual abuse I can say that it is highly doubtful one would forget such an event under any circumstances. Also, it is interesting to note that some land mark cases have been about events occuring during a child's first year of life. The problem is that we do not remember the first year of our lives because of childhood amnesia. Letting quack "therapists" hypnotizing hihgly dissosiative individuals and implanting memories has ruined many people's lives. Beleiving in repressed memories is dangerous. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/206.108.31.36|206.108.31.36]] ([[User talk:206.108.31.36|talk]]) 19:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC) 
:Yes, however, this is your opinion and not fact. I beleive in this--I spent more than a year of my life researching how to cause myself to forget the previous year--and the year after that, I thought I was a year younger and had to re-meet six people. However, the article does not claim it to be true, just as it does not claim and [[religion]] or [[spirituality]] to be true. [[User:Equivamp|Equivamp]] ([[User talk:Equivamp|talk]]) 20:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

:Hate to burst your bubble. I have recovered repressed memories. Many of the recovered memories have been corroborated. I did not recover them in the process of therapy. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussing how to create a good page, not the subject itself. [[User:Bloomingdedalus|Bloomingdedalus]] ([[User talk:Bloomingdedalus|talk]]) 14:59, 21 June 2011
(UTC)
Yes, because a contributor to Wikipedia claims to have recovered repressed memories, this means repressed memories are a real phenomenon. [[Special:Contributions/69.158.16.56|69.158.16.56]] ([[User talk:69.158.16.56|talk]]) 05:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

:Repressed memories and false memories are two different concepts. To insist that all repressed memories fall into the category of "false" would be to negate the concept of repressed memories and essentially censor the latter. This is not what Wikipedia is about. These should be two different articles.

I would like to add a few notes to this discussion.

1. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia ("Encyclopedic content must be verifiable.") Therefore, subjective opinions - such as those expressed here - about one's mental states are, in a word, irrelevant. Therefore, the following statements bear no weight in discussions about the article: "As a victim of child sexual abuse I can say that it is highly doubtful one would forget such an event under any circumstances." - There is ample (verifiable) evidence that forgetting of child sexual abuse occurs; "I have recovered repressed memories." - Not verifiable.

2. This discussion does not distinguish between recovering a memory (which implies a special mechanism), and suddenly remembering a memory. The article also fails to make this distinction.

3. I suggest this article be lifted to a [[WP:Protection_policy#semi|semi-protected status]], because of the controversial nature of the article and high likelyhood of vandalism. [[User:Vuorrem|Vuorrem]] ([[User talk:Vuorrem|talk]]) 00:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

== Discussion of changes ==

Regards the recent changes:
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Repressed_memory&diff=314032215&oldid=313896441 This] change undoes my removal of the reference to child sexual abuse accommodation syndrome. My issue isn't that it's a relaible source, it's that CSAAS isn't recognized as an actual syndrome. ''Satan's Silence'' discusses how Summit himself states it is "impressionistic" rather than evidence based. In [http://books.google.com/books?id=pyptwPVK-6MC&pg=PA142 this] source on page 142 in the "other child abuse syndromes" section, points out that it has recieved a great deal of attention but is rejected for some uses and accepted for others. I've also got a couple references [[Talk:Satanic_ritual_abuse/Archive_8#CSAAS|here]] but I'll have to read through them a little more. My impression of CSAAS is that it's not well recieved or proven. [http://books.google.com/books?id=-krZZF9dl-sC&pg=PA413 This] is another discussion which is rather critical. I removed the reference not because it's not a reliable source, but because it's [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] on an unproven, poorly-accepted theory (and one that could probably have a page written on it, as I intended to do with the sources at talk:sra when I made the time).
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Repressed_memory&diff=next&oldid=314032215 This] is again not a problem with the reliability of the sources, it's a matter of weight. A statement with ''five'' (old) sources after it, while the counter-statement has ''none'', gives the reader the impression that there is really only merit to one point of view. I didn't change the text at all, I merely took out the references. Alternative approaches could include collapsing all five into one reference with the five in it, selecting the best one and using only it, or finding a newer one. I don't think anyone disputes this is part of the debate in psychology and memory, but there are certainly better and newer sources (if I get a chance to re-read [[Paul R. McHugh]]'s ''Try to Remember'', I'll do so with an eye towards a better reference here. Good book by the way).
* The use of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Repressed_memory&diff=314037131&oldid=314035751 Pope] is...OK... but he is pretty partisan and not primarily an academic. However, he does have a lot of publications. It's also just as old as the entry it replaced. My thinking is that the recent opinion on memory is considerably further from Pope's position than it was in the past. However, it's up to me to demonstrate that through citations rather than assertion.

Primarily, I'd like to see the number of sources to one statement in the lead reduced, the rest I'm happy to discuss. [[User:WLU|WLU]] [[User talk:WLU|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/WLU|(c)]] Wikipedia's rules:[[WP:SIMPLE|simple]]/[[WP:POL|complex]] 13:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:I've [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Repressed_memory&diff=prev&oldid=314109806 undone] DreamGuy's revert - I certainly agree with him that these sources are problematic (above) but they are not unreliable. The page really, really deserves a thorough re-write. It's too full of AbuseTruth's POV-pushing, lopsided referencing and source dumping to be a good page, but kicking off a revert war isn't the way to re-write it. Please let us discuss rather than drive away contributors. If we work together to find and summarize ''good, recent sources'', we'll be doing a great thing for the page and community and can build a [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] version we're all willing to defend and trust. [[User:WLU|WLU]] [[User talk:WLU|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/WLU|(c)]] Wikipedia's rules:[[WP:SIMPLE|simple]]/[[WP:POL|complex]] 14:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== Forgot to include this comment in my edit summary ==

In [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Repressed_memory&diff=prev&oldid=314109482 this] diff I took out a couple sources but forgot to refer to them in my edit summary. This is a significant article with ''lots'' of scholarly debate. The recovered memory project at Brown is essentially a personal webpage, even if it has the imprimatur of [[Brown University]], and is ''not'' published in a reliable source. The place where this is debated is scholarly books and journal articles, not on random sympathetic webpages that AbuseTruth managed to turn up while trolling the internet. There's a good book by Paul McHugh I've read, and another by Randy McNally that I've got on reserve, as well as a bunch at my local university library that I could pick up. Let's write the page with these, not with webpages. [[User:WLU|WLU]] [[User talk:WLU|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/WLU|(c)]] Wikipedia's rules:[[WP:SIMPLE|simple]]/[[WP:POL|complex]] 14:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== Theory section ==

The [[Repressed_memory#Theory|theory]] section is terrible - two sentences with two sources, both by Pamela Freyd. The IJSTD or whatever it is called now is a bit of a walled garden with a dubious journal - McHugh states that the peer reivew process for the journal is more of a "consultation with peers" than actual peer review. Freyd is one of the people to kick off the recovered memory movement and it's counterpart the FMSF - her parents are two of the founders. ''Ethics and Behaviour'' is of dubious use in my mind as well, and certainly seems like a bad choice of publication venue for an ostensibly neurological theory. There must be better sources than this... [[User:WLU|WLU]] [[User talk:WLU|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/WLU|(c)]] Wikipedia's rules:[[WP:SIMPLE|simple]]/[[WP:POL|complex]] 19:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

== Recovered memory ==

[[User:TakuyaMurata|TakuyaMurata]] has been creating an independent article (apparently from cz.wikipedia) at [[Recovered memory]]. I've been reverting, because much of the material is here, but perhaps a split is appropriate. I can't find a consensus for the redirect in any of the history, so I'm trying to determine whether there is a consensus. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 05:14, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

:The article from Citizendium is interesting and has some good sources. This could be either a merge or a split, but either way, the additional content is useful and should be kept while we work it out.

:One thing to keep clear while we discuss this - although the other article is titled [[Recovered memory]], it is not about [[Recovered memory therapy]] - that is a separate term for a short-lived set of practices that were never embraced by science and are not part of the scientific issues regarding the operation of memory in the presence of trauma. We should not allow the science topic to be distracted into the socio-political topic of RMT as it occurred in the 1980s and early 1990s. That's a valid topic for the encyclopedia also, but it's a different topic, and it's not science.

:A main point to consider in deciding whether to merge or split - is there enough information in the sources for separate articles (repressed memories & recovered memories), and is that information clearly differentiated enough - or do the sources mostly overlap and discuss the two concepts under one umbrella? --[[User:Jack-A-Roe|Jack-A-Roe]] ([[User talk:Jack-A-Roe|talk]]) 06:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, I still don't get what problem Rubin has. (i) The new article is not in a copyright violation. Period. What can I say more? (ii) You don't really have to discuss before you start a new article. However, if you want to delete it, then you have to ''discuss''. If there are overlaps, then some materials moved around from here to there or there to here, as we do routinely. The most important question is, however, whether the topic "recovered memory" deserves a standalone article. An AFD is a place to discuss that. -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]] ([[User talk:TakuyaMurata|talk]]) 11:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

:Yes, you '''do''' have to discuss a new article which contains (some of the) same material in an existing article, even if you do not use the existing article. That's a [[WP:CFORK]], whether or not the material is copied from a CZ article. And AfD is inappropriate, as no one is requesting the article be deleted. The two articles need to be merged (by you), and then split if there is a rational way to split the articles on the interwined concepts. As an aside, is there a CZ article on '''this''' topic, [[repressed memory]]. If not, you are clearly the one violating Wikipedia guidelines. If there really are two CZ articles, then that might be different.
:My claim of copyright violation is a mistake, as you put the CZ tag elsewhere than where I would have expected it. You may be correct as to placement. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 13:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
::I think the two can easlly be merged and that there is no reason to have to articals about the same subject.--[[User:ARTEST4ECHO|ARTEST4ECHO]] ([[User talk:ARTEST4ECHO|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/ARTEST4ECHO|contribs]]) 17:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
This discussion has been dead for over a year now and the same goes for the entire talk page of [[Talk:Recovered memory|Recovered memory]]. If there aren't any objections I will be closing this discussion in about a week and start with the [[WP:MERGE|merger]]. [[User:JGM73|JGM73]] ([[User talk:JGM73|talk]]) 01:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

== Hypothesis v. theory ==

I never said it was an ''accepted'' theory, but it ''is'' a theory that [[repressed memories]] exist and can be formed by traumatic events. The hypothesis would be that they merely exist. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 22:40, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
:I noticed that [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] and [[User:188.221.109.57|188.221.109.57]] have been going back and forth since 13 January 2011 on the use of Hypothesis v. theory. I thought I would put my 2-cents in. First I thought definitions might help. According to Wikipedia:

:*[[Hypothesis]]: A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for an observable phenomenon.
:*[[Theory]]: The word theory, when used by scientists, refers to an explanation of reality that has been thoroughly tested so that most scientists agree on it.

:Additionally if you go to [http://psychology.about.com/od/researchmethods/ss/expdesintro_2.htm this page] it says "A theory is a well-established principle that has been developed to explain some aspect of the natural world.".

:Given the statements "scientists agree on it," and "well-established principle" I would have to say that I agree with 188.221.109.57. "Repressed memory" is far from being accepted by "most scientists" or being "well-established", therefore it is a hypothesis. Even [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] says "never said it was an ''accepted'' theory". In order to the a theory it has to be ''accepted'', per "scientists agree on it," and "well-established principle".--[[User:ARTEST4ECHO|ARTEST4ECHO]] ([[User talk:ARTEST4ECHO|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/ARTEST4ECHO|contribs]]) 15:03, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

::We need to fix the Wikipedia articles "[[hypothesis]]" and "[[theory]]". "[[Theory]]" should include any complex explanation of an (observable) phenomenon, while a hypothesis should be restricted to the (proposed) cause of a phenomenon; if the theory includes more than one cause, it should be a "theory", not a ""hypothesis". — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 18:03, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
:::I'm sorry, but you have honestly lost me. I'm not sure what you’re getting at? Everything I have read (after doing a search on Google of "Hypothesis v. theory" ([http://www.mikeblaber.org/oldwine/chm1045/notes/Intro/Theory/Theory.htm], [http://psychology.about.com/od/researchmethods/ss/expdesintro_2.htm], [http://www.knewance.com/comparisons/hypothesis-v-theory-v-law.html], etc.) backs the idea that a Theory requires thoroughly testing that most scientists agree with. Just because something has more then one supposed cause, doesn’t make it a theory. However, again, I'm not sure what you’re getting at, so I may be way off.--[[User:ARTEST4ECHO|ARTEST4ECHO]] ([[User talk:ARTEST4ECHO|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/ARTEST4ECHO|contribs]]) 19:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

== The Butterfly Effect (film) ==

I don't believe that "[[The Butterfly Effect (film)]]" belongs in the "See also" section of this article. However, since [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] dose, I thought I would bring this up on the talk page. I don't believe it belongs because:

*1. I'm not so sure that "The Butterfly Effect (film)" has anything to do with Repressed memory. According to "The Butterfly Effect" page Evan Treborn has "blackouts" due to his altering his past (time travel). This is not the same as "Repressed memory" where has "motivated forgetting in which a subject blocks out painful or traumatic times in one's life". If the event never happened, because he changed it, then there was no memory in the first place. It has nothing to with "motivated forgetting".

*2. Even assuming that it qualifies as "Repressed memory" or "motivated forgetting", the film only vague has anything to do with Repressed memory. Even the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Repressed_memory&action=historysubmit&diff=411177857&oldid=411156817 edit summery]] say "It's a stretch, but the viewpoint character DOES have repressed memories". The film is more about the "[[Chaos theory]]", hence the name "The Butterfly Effect".

*3. Even assuming I am wrong about 1 and 2, including this one film opens the issue, what about the many other films that have much more to do with "Repressed memory" then this film. For example, After Life (Hirokazu Kore-eda, 2001), Amateur (Hal Hartley, 1994), Amnesia (Margaret Harris, 2000), Anastasia (1956), As You Desire Me (George Fitzmaurice, 1932), Beware My Lovely (Harry Horner, 1952), The Black Curtain, The Blue Dahlia (1946), The Bourne Identity (2002) and all it's sequels. I can list 15 more (I have a nice list, but I don't want to include them all here). Unless someone wants to list all the films that have or will have anything to do with "Repressed memory" in the future, then including this one film and not the all the other is inappropriate.

The inclusion of "[[The Butterfly Effect (film)]]", which is purely a work of fiction, is just misplaced here. --[[User:ARTEST4ECHO|ARTEST4ECHO]] ([[User talk:ARTEST4ECHO|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/ARTEST4ECHO|contribs]]) 15:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

:#IIRC correctly, Evan has blackouts due to the traumatic events in the "current" version of the subject. When he reads the diary entry (which he made at the time, as he no longer remembers the event), he can change it. If I'm wrong, I apologize.
:#The film is about the [[butterfly effect]], which, itself, only has a loose connection to [[chaos theory]].
:#Many of the films you list qualify as related to [[amnesia]] (the most common illness in soap operas), rather than to [[repressed memory]].
:Still, I probably won't restore it if it's removed again. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 15:47, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

== A Nightmare On Elm Street ==

Just a quick suggestion: should a link to the film A Nightmare On Elm Street (the page, of course) bhe included in the see also section? Or even a new "in popular culture" section? The film centres around the repressed memories of these children. Merely a suggestion. [[Special:Contributions/94.15.207.239|94.15.207.239]] ([[User talk:94.15.207.239|talk]]) 19:58, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

== Merging False Memory Syndrome into Repressed Memory ==

This subject is currently being worked on in three different places ([[Recovered memory]] and [[False memory syndrome]]). This is not working. If want to improve the quality we need to join our forces in one centralized article. It'd be a waste of time to copy and paste sources back and forth between articles that largely deal with the same subject.[[User:JGM73|JGM73]] ([[User talk:JGM73|talk]]) 00:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

As an editor, I think of false memory syndrome, repressed memories, and amnesia as completely separate things so I would not merge False Memory Syndrome and Repressed Memory in one article. The topic of memory is too large to be contained in one article.

Also, on the topic of amnesia as the most common illness in soap operas, Harlequin had a whole series, not sure if it is still running, called the Amnesia Series, in which a woman is married to a man (or engaged or whatever) and then, for some reason, completely forgets that part of her life, then he finds her and gets to woo her all over again. Weird but fascinating. I read two of these though I don't usually read romances of this type.
[[User:Bebhinn-Matrix|Bebhinn-Matrix]] ([[User talk:Bebhinn-Matrix|talk]]) 18:22, 25 January 2012 (UTC) Bebhinn

:I would definitely not suggest to throw the entire topic of memory in one article but there is a [[WP:CFORK#POV fork|content fork and POV fork]] between the repressed memory page and false memory syndrome page that needs to be addressed somehow. Whether or not merging is the best remedy (and if so whether or not this is the best destination page) is of course a topic of debate. [[User:JGM73|JGM73]] ([[User talk:JGM73|talk]]) 15:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

::I believe these sections should be kept separate. Each of these sections ([[repressed memory]], [[Recovered memory]], and [[false memory syndrome]]) have too many distinctive differences. For example, a false memory will sometimes feel like a repressed memory, but most often it does not. In addition, a recovered memory will sometimes be a false memory, but often it merely feels as if it has been recovered but is really a true memory that was never forgotten in the first place. In short, these three sections, while related, each have distinctively different lines of research, and have different root causes and implications in the real world. I do agree with JGM73 though that there should be good links between all of these articles. [[User:Jlfosternz|Jlfosternz]] ([[User talk:Jlfosternz|talk]]) 20:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

:::After looking around a little more, I do believe that the [[Repressed memory]] and [[Psychological repression]] should probably be merged together. [[User:Jlfosternz|Jlfosternz]] ([[User talk:Jlfosternz|talk]]) 21:04, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that repressed memory should be merged with false memory syndrome. Rather, the latter should be expanded beyond its narrow focus to include false memories that occur outside the therapist's office. For example, Person A is enraged at Person B, imagines harmful actions by Person B, and in a vicious cycle of imagining and rage, comes to believe, with utter conviction, that Person B did those harms. The consequences of the rage/illusion syndrome can be devastating. Example: the Holocaust. (See [[The_Holocaust#Ideology_and_scale|The Holocaust: Ideology and scale]], first quotation box. Although the Nazis' hallucinations were as much about the present as about the past, they were very similar to rage-induced memories.) But I've seen it happen twice on a smaller scale, destroying friendships, estranging family members. "False memory syndrome" or "False memory" (which is currently only a disambiguaton page), or both, should be expanded.[[User:Scribe2u|Scribe2u]] ([[User talk:Scribe2u|talk]]) 02:26, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

And then there's the closely related subject of memory distortion. I understand Wikipedia's difficulties here. This area is too complex for any encyclopedia.[[User:Scribe2u|Scribe2u]] ([[User talk:Scribe2u|talk]]) 18:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

== An oversight of the mess ==

Articles with overlapping content and their respective sections:

[[Repressed memory]]
:History / Research / Hypothesis / Controversy / Legal issues / Recovered memory therapy (with referral to the main article)
[[Psychological repression]]
:Freud's theory / Later developments / Related concepts: repressed memories
[[Recovered memory]]
:Authenticity / Medico-legal issues / Neurological basis of memory / Amnesia / Effects of trauma on memory / Professional organisations
[[Recovered-memory therapy]]
:Terminology / Research / Professional guidelines / Legal issues
[[False memory syndrome]]
:Definition / Recovered memory therapy (with referral to the main article) / Evidence for / Court cases

=== Overlapping sections ===
Legal issues/Medico-legal issues/Court cases
:→ [[False memory syndrome]]
:→ [[Recovered-memory therapy]]
:→ [[Repressed memory]]
Controversy/Authenticity (of recovered memories)/Research (about recovered memories)
:→ [[Repressed memory]]
:→ [[Recovered memory]]
:→ [[False memory syndrome]]
Evidence for (the existence of false memories in general)/Neurological basis of memory
:→ [[Recovered memory]]
:→ [[False memory syndrome]]
Hypothesis/Effects of trauma on memory
:→ [[Repressed memory]]
:→ [[Recovered memory]]

If you I missed a significant overlap, please create a new discussion topic to discuss this there.

=== Vote ===
* Vote for each of these topics which article should be their main article.

* Vote per topic whether the topics in the other articles should
:(a) have a brief summary and a referral to the main article, or
:(b) be referred to in the See Also section.

* And please vote yes or no to adding info-tags to the respective talk pages outlining the results of this vote.

[[User:JGM73|JGM73]] ([[User talk:JGM73|talk]]) 01:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

== from the lead: "A repressed memory, also known as a recovered memory" - this is false ==

A repressed memory '''is not''' also know as a recovered memory. This is false. [[User:MathewTownsend|MathewTownsend]] ([[User talk:MathewTownsend|talk]]) 14:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
:How do you know it's a "repressed memory" until it's "recovered" and becomes a "recovered memory". The sentence could be better-written, but, it's not exactly wrong. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 14:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
::Actually, not all repressed memories will be recovered, so I agree with MathewTownsend that it is wrong. Once the memory is recovered, it is no longer repressed. And as an answer to your question: you can know it is repressed memory when there are witnesses to the traumatic event, but the person cannot remember what happened. [[User:Lova_Falk|'''Lova Falk''']] [[User talk:Lova Falk|talk]] 15:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
:::Actually, "you can know it is repressed memory when there are witnesses to the traumatic event, but the person cannot remember what happened" isn't quite correct, either. The memory may never have existed. Not only the event, but the victim's recollection of the event, must be witnessed. But it is possible, under some definition of "repressed memory". — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 03:15, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
::::That is true, a memory might never have been created. But once a memory has been recovered, we know the memory was repressed-but-not-recovered prior to the moment of recovery. [[User:Lova_Falk|'''Lova Falk''']] [[User talk:Lova Falk|talk]] 11:57, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::They are two different things, a recovered memory is no longer repressed.[[User:Maunus|·ʍaunus]]·[[User talk:Maunus|snunɐw·]] 23:03, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

== Merging entry on False Memory Syndrome into Repressed Memory ==

This is not a good idea for several reasons.

The first is that the ability to create false memories has been scientifically proven over and over, as referenced in the Wikipedia entry.

Repressed memory in of itself, is disputed as to its actual veracity.

Finally, even if repressed memories did exist, false memories and false memory syndrome have and can be created from events that absolutely could not have happened.
Therefore, these events could not have been repressed in the first place.

Example one: "I Shook Hands With Bugs Bunny At Disney World" experiment.
This could not be a repressed memory, because Bugs Bunny is a Warner Brothers character and would not be at Disney World.

Synopsis: In Experiment 2, participants viewed an ad for Disney that
suggested that they shook hands with an impossible character (e.g.,
Bugs Bunny). Again, relative to controls, the ad increased confidence
that they personally had shaken hands with the impossible
character as a child at a Disney resort. The increased confidence is
consistent with the notion that autobiographical referencing can
lead to the creation of false or distorted memory. � 2002 John Wiley
& Sons, Inc.

Reference:http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/BraunPsychMarket02.pdf
Make My Memory: How Advertising Can Change Our Memories of the Past
Kathryn A. Braun,Harvard Business School -- Rhiannon Ellis,University of Pittsburgh -- Elizabeth F. Loftus, University of Washington
*******
Example two: Car Crash Study

Synopsis: To date, research has shown that it is fairly easy to take advantage of our fallible memory. Elizabeth Loftus, cognitive psychologist and expert on human memory, has found that simply changing one word in a question can contort what we recall. In one experiment, Loftus had participants watch a film of a car crash, and then asked about what they saw. They were either asked “How fast were the cars going when they hit each other,” or “How fast were the cars going when they smashed into each other.” One week later the participants returned for some memory questions. Loftus asked whether or not there was broken glass at the scene of the accident. Those participants that heard the word “smashed” were more than twice as likely to recall seeing broken glass than those who heard the word “hit.” Keep in mind, there was in fact no broken glass at the scene[2].

Reference: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/11/14/how-long-will-a-lie-last-new-study-finds-that-false-memories-linger-for-years/
Scientific American
How Long Will a Lie Last? New Study Finds That False Memories Linger for Years
By Kyle Hill | November 14, 2012 |

[[User:Glenna1984|Glenna1984]] ([[User talk:Glenna1984|talk]]) 19:21, 27 January 2013 (UTC)Glenn Abelson

== Proposal changes to repressed memory page ==

Hello everyone, we are a group of students from Florida International University working on a class project to help improve the quality of the Wikipedia Repressed Memory article. We propose the following:

First, we want to revise the first section of the article by replacing the first two sentences into an easier and faster to read definition of repressed memory. We also want to add a citation at the end of these sentences. Furthermore, we would like to add at least one more sentence discussing the belief that repressed memories are false. This will add a more neutral view on the topic. We propose deleting the sentence tagged as “dubious”. This section should have a clear definition of dissociative amnesia to prove that the two terms are very similar. Also, revise the definition of amnesia into an easier to read definition. In this section we would want to remove a citation and add two more secondary sources that the article is in need of.

In addition, we would like to expand the History section of this article. We would remove the second sentence because there is no appropriate citation. Then we would add information about Freud’s psychoanalysis philosophy and tie it into repressed memory. We would also discuss his study on the case of Anna O. Then, add more secondary references.

Next, in the Criticism section we propose adding more examples and information on case studies. Again, add more secondary references. In the Amnesia section we would like to revise the wording of certain sentences. Add more references to support our new added information.

The last entry on this articles talk page by Glenn Abelson in January 2013 was mainly based on primary sources which are not the best sources because it does not follow Wikipedia standards. We would not agree to change the article based on these primary sources. [[User:Rachelparra|Rachelparra]] ([[User talk:Rachelparra|talk]]) 22:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
:Hi Rachel, and welcome! You have no idea how happy I am reading a sentence like this one: "We would not agree to change the article based on these primary sources." I wish you the best of luck and don't hesitate to ask me if I can be of any help. With friendly regards, [[User:Lova_Falk|'''Lova Falk''']] [[User talk:Lova Falk|talk]] 08:46, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
::I haven't checked the specific edits you want to make, but that is the best description I've seen of how to edit within Wikipedia guidelines I've seen in some time. I should add that, though, with rare exceptions, Wikipedia accounts should be ''individual''; edits done by different members of the class should be done under different editor names. I, too, wish you the best of luck, and don't hesitate to ask me for assistance in WikiFormating or other difficulties you may have. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 15:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

{{ course assignment | course = Education Program:Florida International University/Advanced Experimental Psychology Lab (Spring 2013) | term = 2013 Q1 }}[[User:Fiupsychology|Fiupsychology]] ([[User talk:Fiupsychology|talk]]) 04:52, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

== Repressed memory now proven to be a myth - Thomas Quick Case. Sweden. ==

This article is controversial. It says "citation needed" in the first line. This has not been provided. Let's shed some light on this.

The events in Sweden that finally came to light on 26th November 2013 prove beyond doubt that there is no such thing as repressed memory. Elisabeth Lotus has been interviewed for the Swedish TV on the Thomas Quick case and the program became a revelation.

The world's leading expert on repressed memories (the now discredited Swede Margit Norell who died at 90 in 2006) had an influence on all those who dealt with Thomas Quick. Starting in 1992 Quick confessed to 39 murders and was convicted of 8. All of Quick's confessions were brought about in therapy sessions with physiatrists who had received training/therapy and guidance from Norell. One of the physiatrists even "revealed" her own repressed memory of child abuse sufferred at 1 to Quick, whom she identified with, in private letters.

Quick has now been cleared of all charges and pardoned from all murders. He has changed his name back to his birth name Sture Bergwall if anyone wants to google the case. The Quick saga has been an ongoing case for over 20 years. The belief in repressed memory led to all other leads in the murder cases being ignored. In Swedish law there is a statute of limitations on murder of 25 years and only one of the 8 murders files can be opened again. The other 7 are now prescribed and even a confession from the real murderer and DNA proof can not lead to a prosecution. The belief in the myth of "repressed memory" has thus created one of the biggest criminal injustices of all time. The families of seven murder victims will now never see somebody convicted. According to a legal expert at least 5 of the murders would have been cleared up if prosecutors had not been misled by what he called "repressed memory quacks".

In a number of the cases no body has been recovered. Quick was taken on outings to the forests to look for bodies and body parts. Despite the psychiatrists being present no body parts were ever recovered. Quick has now confessed to wanting day trips and everybody being all to eager to believe him because of the "need" by believers in "repressed memory" theory to prove what they believed in actually existed. The case became more about the existence or non-existence of repressed memory than about trying to find the murderers. Police with alternate theories were kept away from these cases.

It is my belief that the WIKI entry on repressed memory can therefore be changed to "proven myth". And in any case there needs to be a section on Thomas Quick as any scholars of theory need to take a deep look into this case. The falseness of the confessions is synonymous with the myth of repressed memory. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.217.246.25|84.217.246.25]] ([[User talk:84.217.246.25|talk]]) 05:47, 27 November 2013 (UTC) 
:How could ''one'' case - a drug addict who found out that telling certain lies gave him access to more drugs - overturn an entire theory? Just because it is not true in Quick's case doesn't mean it cannot be true in other cases. We need good sources (please see [[WP:MEDRS]]) both for the claim that repressed memory is true or for the claim that it is a myth. [[User:Lova_Falk|'''Lova Falk''']] [[User talk:Lova Falk|talk]] 08:32, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

== Tagged a POV issue ==

This page has been modified so much to the belief that Repressed memory is real, it no longer looks NPOV. Repressed memory is pseudoscience and that page is written as if the scientific community thinks it is real. It really need to me move back to a NOPV page.--[[User:ARTEST4ECHO|ARTEST4ECHO]] ([[User talk:ARTEST4ECHO|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/ARTEST4ECHO|contribs]]) 14:04, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:When was the article last more-or-less good? I haven't been watching, recently. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 11:43, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
::That's a good question. Is is definitely before the IP editors got their hands on it. However, when the opening sentence of a article has been tagged as needed a citation forever, then obviously there is an overall problem. The existence of repressed memory has never been accepted by mainstream psychology, yet this page has only two paragraphs in over 30 saying that. The page is written so that it appears that this is an accepted psychiatric idea, when it isn't. That should be right up top in the opining paragraph. Something like, "Repressed memory is a pseudoscience theory that memory can be unconsciously blocked by an individual due to the high level of stress or trauma contained in that memory." At a minimum it should be something like "Repressed memory the theory that memory can be unconsciously blocked by an individual due to the high level of stress or trauma contained in that memory."
::However, the opening line isn't the over all issue. The issue is that this article is written with a POV slant that Repressed memory is accepted by they psychiatric community, it is not. However, I know that if I were to change the page it would cause a huge edit war, so I'm not going to--[[User:ARTEST4ECHO|ARTEST4ECHO]] ([[User talk:ARTEST4ECHO|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/ARTEST4ECHO|contribs]]) 13:45, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. The article is a complete mess. It needs to be completely re-organized. Many of the sections overlap, and sort of say the same things. Other sections need to be broken up into smaller ones. It gives way too much credence to the fringe positions. Relies on primary sources. The lede is terrible. Many, many issues.

As a starting point, I've tried to simply remove the primary and low quality sources. Have I succeeded? Are there any more? If you see anymore, just outright remove them. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 09:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

@ARTEST4ECHO:
I suggest as a start help organize and refine the current article. In addition, create a test page where you re-write the article. Then post the test page here for discussion. It can then be discussed, altered and some or all of your re-write can be incorporated into the article. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 09:43, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I've reworked some of the most problematic wording, but we could really use some larger studies. As far as I'm aware every large scale study has pointed towards the nonexistence of the phenomenon, and NPOV doesn't mean we need to weight this as heavily as the few studies that strengthen the hypothesis. [[User:CFCF|'''CFCF''']] ([[User talk:CFCF|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/CFCF|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/CFCF|email]]) 10:31, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
:Thank you, and I agree fully. We also need to do something about the "criticism" section. It really should be "Research section" but there's already a section like that. A lot of these sections need to be merged, split up, etc. A full re-organizing. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 11:13, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Also look at [[Recovered-memory therapy]] article. Possibly merge them. I dunno. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 12:07, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
::I think merging them is necessary, even if we do I think after weeding out poor sources we can just about justify one article.[[User:CFCF|'''CFCF''']] ([[User talk:CFCF|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/CFCF|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/CFCF|email]]) 13:04, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I agree. The articles seem to be mostly copies of each other. --[[User:Harizotoh9|Harizotoh9]] ([[User talk:Harizotoh9|talk]]) 09:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Even though there is quite a strong argument that it is not possible to know if recovered memories are true or false I feel the article fails to bring up the viewpoint that it is impossible to recover memories. Looking into sources. [[User:CFCF|'''CFCF''']] ([[User talk:CFCF|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/CFCF|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/CFCF|email]]) 09:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

== Investigative issues ==

I am fairly upset that the section I spent so much time researching and writing was removed. The article was extensively cited and sourced, and is clearly related to this topic. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/173.76.226.254|173.76.226.254]] ([[User talk:173.76.226.254|talk]]) 04:47, 8 March 2014 (UTC) 
:Please see, [[WP:MEDMOS]], [[WP:MEDRS]], [[WP:UNDUE]], [[WP:RS]]. [[User:CFCF|'''CFCF''']] ([[User talk:CFCF|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/CFCF|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/CFCF|email]]) 05:41, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

:: And you wonder why fewer people contribute to Wikipedia....
:: Lets take them one at a time, shall we?
::
:: [[WP:MEDMOS]] applies to medical articles. What I posted was clearly criminal justice. In addition, if you don't like the style of valid content, change the style, don't delete useful content.
:: [[WP:MEDRS]] I cited and sourced everything in that section with published and peer reviewed papers and common college textbooks. That sub-section was perhaps the best cited and sourced section in the whole topic. While the citations are not in wiki format, I will also note that I asked for the communities help in converting the citations when I posted it.
:: [[WP:UNDUE]] The article on investigative issues was very balanced. It outlined how criminal investigators should approach the issue so as to protect all involved. It did not take any side at all.
:: [[WP:RS]] The article extensively cited and sourced common criminal justice textbooks and peer reviewed papers.
:: Care to try again? or perhaps just admit you made a mistake and correct it. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/173.76.226.254|173.76.226.254]] ([[User talk:173.76.226.254|talk]]) 20:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC) 

I'm sorry, the article has been purged of a number of other inaccuracies in the same time-period which fall under those clauses. The reason your text was removed was not that it was poorly sourced, but because it was not entirely in the scope of the article. Also one editor expressed concern that it might be a copyright violation. It is possible to restore the text and create a new article, such as; [[Forensics of repressed memory]] or similar. (Take note not to make the name too long). Also it is preferable to use in-line citations. [[User:CFCF|'''CFCF''']] ([[User talk:CFCF|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/CFCF|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/CFCF|email]]) 09:06, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

: Again, if you felt that it was not entirely within scope and belonged on a different page, deleting useful and high quality content is not the answer, but it is a great way of telling someone with subject matter expertise to go away. This kind of behavior is in large part why wikipedia sees fewer contributors than it used to, especially occasional contributes with subject matter expertise.

: As to the accusation of it being a possible copyright violation, that really should have a bit of evidence first. Like what it was a violation of. A review of the article history shows several edits to the section, and show the article evolving. This is a good indication that the article was not completed when it was posted, and was still evolving. If it is evolving this way, the liklihood of it being a copyright violation is exceedingly low.

: Now, I'll take one more stab at it on a new page, however the one you linked to does not exist. Can you assist? — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/146.115.132.166|146.115.132.166]] ([[User talk:146.115.132.166|talk]]) 03:00, 12 March 2014 (UTC) 

== Newly created article: [[Forensics of repressed memory]] ==

The new article [[Forensics of repressed memory]] is in need of attention, and previous discussions on this talk page seem relevant. [[User:Animalparty|--Animalparty--]] ([[User talk:Animalparty|talk]]) 00:56, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
:There is no such page. So I guess it really does need a lot of attention... --[[User:Gronk Oz|Gronk Oz]] ([[User talk:Gronk Oz|talk]]) 14:16, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
::It was moved to [[Draft:Forensics of repressed memory]], and it does still need a lot of attention. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 20:44, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
:::The only attention it needs is if it ever becomes an article it should be deleted. It's an essay, not an article, and it has no reliable sources to speak of. [[User:DreamGuy|DreamGuy]] ([[User talk:DreamGuy|talk]]) 18:02, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
:::::I agree. This reads more like an how-to web-page than an encyclopedia article. I see no reason whatsoever that there has to be an article about the topic (as it is no topic, really), A few sentences, in the repressed memory article, about the procedure and the mistakes that were made in procedure and methodology in some Forensic cases should be more than enough.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 16:44, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

== Why is the POV issue still here? ==

It looks like this has been ongoing for more than a year.

"Repressed memory" was a topic of active debate in the 1990s. Its now been thoroughly rejected by the courts, the APA, etc.

This article is an example of the reason for the NPOV rule that tiny minority viewpoints do not get as much credence as supermajority viewpoints.

There hasn't been any support for this idea in 15 years.

People today discuss it only in the context of miscarriage-of-justice cases from the 1980s and 1990s in which people were convicted in child-molestation hysteria cases of crimes that never occurred.

If someone can point me to the POV dispute discussion, I'll get involved there.

If not, I'm bringing the issue back up here: Is there any reliable source from the past 15 years that this phenomenon even exists? If not, I propose going through the page and radically trimming it to note that the theory had proponents, is now discredited, cite the cases, and provide links to the miscarriage-of-justice pages.

[[User:Djcheburashka|Djcheburashka]] ([[User talk:Djcheburashka|talk]]) 07:44, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

:The APA still officially says it's a matter of debate: http://www.apa.org/topics/trauma/memories.aspx?item=1
:So we cannot outright say there is *no* support for it. I would encourage you to edit the article to bring it more in line with current thinking (The Cause section is especially bad currently) and be less [[WP:WEASEL]]ly, but you cannot use the article to outright take your side. [[User:DreamGuy|DreamGuy]] ([[User talk:DreamGuy|talk]]) 18:12, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Die-yng

2014-11-07T00:26:50Z

Die-yng: /* Blocked */

User talk:Die-yng

2014-11-06T22:04:07Z

Die-yng: /* Blocked */

== Notice ==
{{Ivmbox
|'''Please read this notification carefully:''' A [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate|community decision]] has authorised the use of [[Wikipedia:General sanctions|general sanctions]] for pages related to the [[Gamergate controversy]]. The details of these sanctions are described [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate|here]].

[[Wikipedia:General sanctions|General sanctions]] is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimise disruption in controversial topic areas. This means [[WP:INVOLVED|uninvolved]] administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to these topics that do not adhere to the [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|purpose of Wikipedia]], our [[:Category:Wikipedia conduct policies|standards of behaviour]], or relevant [[Wikipedia:List of policies|policies]]. Administrators may impose sanctions such as [[Wikipedia:Editing restrictions#Types of restrictions|editing restrictions]], [[Wikipedia:Banning policy#Types of bans|bans]], or [[WP:Blocking policy|blocks]]. An editor can only be sanctioned after he or she has been made aware that general sanctions are in effect. This notification is meant to inform you that sanctions are authorised in these topic areas, which you have been editing. It is only effective if it is logged [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate#Log of notifications|here]]. Before continuing to edit pages in these topic areas, please familiarise yourself with the general sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date. [[User:TaraInDC|TaraInDC]] ([[User talk:TaraInDC|talk]]) 05:32, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
| Commons-emblem-notice.svg
| icon size = 50px}}

== November 2014 ==
[[Image:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]]. I noticed that you made a comment on the page [[:Talk:Gamergate controversy]] that didn't seem very [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil]], so it has been removed. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User_talk:Gamaliel|my talk page]]. Thank you.  [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]] ([[User talk:Gamaliel|talk]]) 06:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The issue here is that you are responding to threads that in the speed of how things are going on the talk page have already ended (two days is already considered pretty much over) so there is absolutely no purpose for you to add onto them your various points which violate [[WP:NOTFORUM]] amongst other guidelines and policies.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 21:10, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

==Blocked==
I've blocked you for 72 hours for violating the [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]] policy by posting and restoring [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brianna_Wu&diff=632739499&oldid=632519338 an unsourced personal attack] on the subject of the article. [[User:Dreadstar|Dreadstar]] [[User talk:Dreadstar|☥]] 21:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

{{unblock | reason=I would understand the block, if a)my post was intended as an attack on Brianna Wu, which it wasn't. Simply stating that someone just claims something without proof is no attack on this person.
And b) I also provided a link to the source for my opinion, a interview with Brianna Wu that was posted by the official channel of the talk show "David Pakman Show " on the 27th of October 2014.
Mrs. Wu makes all these claims in the interview and has no satisfying answer when asked how she comes to this conclusion or if there's any evidence.
I realize that this is a hot topic, and if you would be willing to tell me how my post would not be considered an attack on a person, I would be very willing to follow.

I've read the guideline, but I can see no violation of it in my post. Especially since I did not simply restore my previous post, but changed it to be less critical of Mrs. Wu. And again, my claim is not unsourced. Certainly an interview where the person herself says exactly what I attribute to her is a reliable source in this case.

In addition, I would also c) understand this action (the block), if I had actually posted any of this '''in''' the biography, which I did not. I only posted it on the talk page. I know the guideline is for '''any''' Wikipedia page, but I still think there is a difference between the actual biography and the talk-page thereof.

And let me add that in the last few days, 7 of my edits have been deleted, something that has never happened to me before, neither on the German Wikipedia, nor here.
Six of those edits were done by [[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] and I couldn't be sure if any of those were done for anything but spite, because I had dared to question his neutrality on the topic of #gamergate. He removed one of my posts with the reasoning that I was posting inside an old topic, when there were posts in the very same paragraph, done at the same day my post was made and one by [[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] himself on November the 5th, a day after I made my original post.
Given that, I suspected a biased removal of my edits and checked each one, changed them when necessary and then re-installed those I felt were removed without an actual reason.

With all of the above as a reason, I ask for leniency and removal of my block.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng#top|talk]]) 21:54, 6 November 2014 (UTC)}}

User talk:Die-yng

2014-11-06T21:54:09Z

Die-yng: /* Blocked */

== Notice ==
{{Ivmbox
|'''Please read this notification carefully:''' A [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate|community decision]] has authorised the use of [[Wikipedia:General sanctions|general sanctions]] for pages related to the [[Gamergate controversy]]. The details of these sanctions are described [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate|here]].

[[Wikipedia:General sanctions|General sanctions]] is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimise disruption in controversial topic areas. This means [[WP:INVOLVED|uninvolved]] administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to these topics that do not adhere to the [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|purpose of Wikipedia]], our [[:Category:Wikipedia conduct policies|standards of behaviour]], or relevant [[Wikipedia:List of policies|policies]]. Administrators may impose sanctions such as [[Wikipedia:Editing restrictions#Types of restrictions|editing restrictions]], [[Wikipedia:Banning policy#Types of bans|bans]], or [[WP:Blocking policy|blocks]]. An editor can only be sanctioned after he or she has been made aware that general sanctions are in effect. This notification is meant to inform you that sanctions are authorised in these topic areas, which you have been editing. It is only effective if it is logged [[Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate#Log of notifications|here]]. Before continuing to edit pages in these topic areas, please familiarise yourself with the general sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date. [[User:TaraInDC|TaraInDC]] ([[User talk:TaraInDC|talk]]) 05:32, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
| Commons-emblem-notice.svg
| icon size = 50px}}

== November 2014 ==
[[Image:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]]. I noticed that you made a comment on the page [[:Talk:Gamergate controversy]] that didn't seem very [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil]], so it has been removed. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on [[User_talk:Gamaliel|my talk page]]. Thank you.  [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]] ([[User talk:Gamaliel|talk]]) 06:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The issue here is that you are responding to threads that in the speed of how things are going on the talk page have already ended (two days is already considered pretty much over) so there is absolutely no purpose for you to add onto them your various points which violate [[WP:NOTFORUM]] amongst other guidelines and policies.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 21:10, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

==Blocked==
I've blocked you for 72 hours for violating the [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]] policy by posting and restoring [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brianna_Wu&diff=632739499&oldid=632519338 an unsourced personal attack] on the subject of the article. [[User:Dreadstar|Dreadstar]] [[User talk:Dreadstar|☥]] 21:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

{{unblock | reason=I would understand the block, if a)my post was intended as an attack on Brianna Wu, which it wasn't. Simply stating that someone just claims something without proof is no attack on this person.
And b) I also provided a link to the source for my opinion, a talk show interview with Brianna Wu that was posted by the official channel of the talk show on the 27th of October 2014.
Mrs. Wu makes all these claims in the interview and has no satisfying answer when asked how she comes to this conclusion or if there's any evidence.
I realize that this is a hot topic, and if you would be willing to tell me how my post would not be considered an attack on a person, I would be very willing to follow.

I've read the guideline, but I can see no violation of it in my post. Especially since I did not simply restore my previous post, but changed it to be less critical of Mrs. Wu. And again, my claim is not unsourced. Certainly an interview where the person herself says exactly what I attribute to her is a reliable source in this case.

In addition, I would also c) understand this action (the block), if I had actually posted any of this '''in''' the biography, which I did not. I only posted it on the talk page. I know the guideline is for '''any''' Wikipedia page, but I still think there is a difference between the actual biography and the talk-page thereof.

And let me add that in the last few days, 7 of my edits have been deleted, something that has never happened to me before, neither on the German Wikipedia, nor here.
Six of those edits were done by [[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] and I couldn't be sure if any of those were done for anything but spite, because I had dared to question his neutrality on the topic of #gamergate. He removed one of my posts with the reasoning that I was posting inside an old topic, when there were posts in the very same paragraph, done at the same day my post was made and one by [[User:Ryulong|Ryulong]] himself on November the 5th, a day after I made my original post.
Given that, I suspected a biased removal of my edits and checked each one, changed them when necessary and then re-installed those I felt were removed without an actual reason.

With all of the above as a reason, I ask for leniency and removal of my block.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng#top|talk]]) 21:54, 6 November 2014 (UTC)}}

Talk:Brianna Wu

2014-11-06T21:14:47Z

Die-yng: /* GamerGate origins */

{{talk header}}
{{WPBannerShell|blp=yes|1=
{{WikiProject Biography |class=|listas=Wu, Brianna |living=Y |needs-photo= |a&e-work-group=y |a&e-priority=}}
{{WikiProject Video games|class=Stub|importance=low|Indie=y}}
}}
{{Gamergate sanctions|brief=yes}}
{{oldafdfull| date = 13 October 2014 (UTC) | result = '''keep''' | page = Brianna Wu }}
== Article belongs on Wikipedia? ==

Has this individual made enough contributions to merit having a wikipedia article? It seems like this article (at least) sounds like it was written as a self-biography. How does anybody else feel about this? — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/96.44.123.14|96.44.123.14]] ([[User talk:96.44.123.14|talk]]) 20:33, 19 October 2014 (UTC) 
: This was already addressed at the articles for deletion nomination page. The consensus of the AFD proposal was Keep. if you feel that was incorrect, feel free to make another AFD request; however, it's unlikely to succeed (I've yet to see an article pass an AFD once and then fail later). For now, this article stays. --[[User:Locriani|Locriani]] ([[User talk:Locriani|talk]]) 06:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
::It wasn't an autobiography. Personally, I felt that it shouldn't have been kept, but the consensus differed from my view, and that's all good. We can resubmit an article for review, but generally I feel that editors should wait at least six months - that will also give some distance on the current events, which will perhaps give us a clear perspective one way or the other. In the meantime, so long as we do our best to provide broad coverage of the subject, there should be no issues with keeping it. - [[User:Bilby|Bilby]] ([[User talk:Bilby|talk]]) 06:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
:::This article needs to be deleted. She has not contributed anything noteworthy in gaming. she is an indie developer that has created one game which wasn't even very successful. If we keep this article then any indie dev that has ever published would need a wiki page. Someone nominate this for deletion please. [[User:Xander756|Xander756]] ([[User talk:Xander756|talk]]) 06:15, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Your claims are unsupported and amount to personal attacks on a woman who made international headlines after receiving death threats. She pretty clearly meets [[WP:BIO]] at this point. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 06:27, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
If anything this whole article reads like adcopy, not like a biography. Where are the sources that prove how successful her game was? Are there any charts or sales numbers? Not to mention that the bit about #gamergate at the end is so opinionated, it should burn the page.[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 03:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2014 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Brianna Wu|answered=yes}}

Under the Controversy section of the page, it mentions supporters of Gamergate are what spread her personal information. Unfortunately, this is incorrect as Gamergate is very active on twitter, anyone can adopt the hashtag and say whatever they want and the more prominent supporters of Gamergate do not allow or condone such actions.
Just like those claiming to be feminists act radical and tarnish the Feminist name, so too does Gamergate have it's fringe group tarnishing it's name. It is not fair nor correct to group every feminist with the radicals, it is not fair or correct to group the main group of Gamergate with it's own radicals.

I apologize for the long-winded and roundabout way of asking for the Controversy section to reflect that the fringe group that claim to be supporters are the ones harassing this woman as well as other women in her field. My apologies again and thank you for your time in reading this.

[[User:Abecrombies|Abecrombies]] ([[User talk:Abecrombies|talk]]) 19:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I support this because there is no clear proof of who posted the information. The information was posted in a thread on Gamergate on the imageboard 8chan.co by an anonymous user. Here is an image of the thread, with personal information removed: http://marsmar-lord-of-mars.tumblr.com/image/99684358450[[Special:Contributions/87.157.218.228|87.157.218.228]] ([[User talk:87.157.218.228|talk]]) 19:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree, the Gamergate comments in the controversy section seem unnecessary to the article and heavily biased towards supporters of Gamergate, it could be removed and the article would be better without it [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 13:04, 16 October 2014 (UTC).

:Two of Wikipedia's main policies are [[WP:NOR|no original research]] and [[WP:V|verifiability]], meaning that we write what reliable sources say, and only that. In this case, reliable sources attribute the information postings to "Gamergate supporters", so that's what we do as well. [[User:Sandstein|''' Sandstein ''']] 16:19, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

:Show me a reliable source that has actually tied the leaking of her information to Gamergate. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/161.6.3.33|161.6.3.33]] ([[User talk:161.6.3.33|talk]]) 17:47, 16 October 2014 (UTC) 

:Even so, I don't see how the way different media outlets view Gamergate is relevant to the article and I doubt any reliable source has actually tied the leak to Gamergate supporters [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 17:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

:Said "Reliable sources" are the ones that are at the center of the controversy to begin with and should not be considered reliable. [[User:Pepsiwithcoke|Pepsiwithcoke]] ([[User talk:Pepsiwithcoke|talk]]) 18:03, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

::You're correct, in part. The Polygon article reads: "After tweeting that members of the 8chan message board — a refuge for former 4chan posters — and GamerGate supporters had posted her personal information online, Wu ...". This means that Wu, and not Polygon, identified the posters as Gamergate supporters, and I've made that attribution clear in the text. [[User:Sandstein|''' Sandstein ''']] 18:58, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

:::Alright, we're almost there. Now we just need to remove the blurb about how Gamergate is somehow about harassing women and then the article should be fine. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nathan905RB|contribs]]) 18:15, 17 October 2014 (UTC) 
::::You say that across several pages but that's not going to happen.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 02:32, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, I guess a more neutral viewpoint towards Gamergate can't really happen on Wikipedia. On topic, I don't see the need for the sentence "an online campaign initially intended to offer criticism of games journalism, but which has since become increasingly associated with the harassment of women in video gaming." You could easily cut it out, change the following sentence from "Anonymous supporters of the campaign then posted personal information about her in GamerGate-related discussions, and in October 2014, Wu left her home after receiving threats of violence towards both herself and her husband." to "Anonymous users then posted personal information about her in GamerGate-related discussions, and in October 2014, Wu left her home after receiving threats of violence towards both herself and her husband." and come across as less biased and more neutral and still keep the same message. Especially considering the only person tying Gamergate supporters to the death threats is Wu herself. [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 21:56, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::Wikipedia follows what is said in reliable sources, and if those sources are highly negative of the Gamergate campaign and their involvement with Wu being forced from her home then that is how Wikipedia will present the information.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 01:09, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::And none of the mentioned sources have accurately tied Gamergate supporters to the leakage of information, so I don't see why we're taking them seriously. Even though Brianna Wu is a victim, her unwanted involvement in the incident keeps her as a source from being unbiased so I don't think we can just take her word on this. [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 02:15, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Mrs. Wu has stated on several occasions that she was reading a thread on 8chan's /gg/ where they posted her address and other personal details, and then she received the attacking tweets. She is allowed to say what she thinks and we can report on that information as her own personal opinions on the actions. That's how [[WP:PRIMARYSOURCES]] works.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 02:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::Than why shouldn't we add two words such as "Wu claims" to the sentence stating that Gamergate supporters leaked her information, instead of just reporting it as a fact? [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 02:39, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::She is not being cited so it isn't her claims on the matter.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 02:41, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::You say one post earlier that you can report on the information as her own personal opinions on the actions. How are her own personal opinions on the matter not her claims? Who's claims are they then, if so? [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 02:48, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::She is not ''presently'' cited for anything in the article but if she is cited then all that she says must be taken at face value without any analysis of her claims.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 16:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::And the way the article is currently written (i.e. The line about Wu having to flee her home because of Gamergate supporters) without adding something about her claiming they're Gamergate supporters makes it sound like it's a factual statement that should be taken at face value without any analysis of her claims. That's exactly my point. [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 18:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The only reason why this article exists it to serve as an easily locatable briefing to anyone wishing to write articles about Brianna Wu, her alleged harassment or its alleged connection to GamerGate. Notice how this page was only created after her alleged harassment took place, and how that information has been a core part of the article since its creation. The sole purpose of this article is to push an agenda (demonisation of GamerGate), which is not in keeping with the stated goals of Wikipedia. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.11.76.24|86.11.76.24]] ([[User talk:86.11.76.24|talk]]) 03:37, 17 October 2014 (UTC) 

The section, as it stands, meets and exceeds all of Wikipedia's guidelines for [[WP:V|verifiability]] and [[WP:NOR|no original research]]. I'm closing this request unless you can provide verifiable sources that meet the community guidelines present at those pages. Unfortunately, your assertions of one thing or another, however true they may be, do not meet these requirements. --[[User:Locriani|Locriani]] ([[User talk:Locriani|talk]]) 21:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

: Let me be clear, since this is a matter of some controversy: provide sources that back up your claims, and I'm more than willing to include them as a rebuttal in the controversy section. The 1 link present in this talk discussion does not meet these requirements (nor is it really germane to this discussion). News articles, blog posts, etc. ''that are not written by yourself'' are eligible, as I understand the guidelines. If you disagree with my interpretation, feel free to reopen the request; however, I doubt you'll find anyone willing to modify the article until you can provided sources to back up your claims. --[[User:Locriani|Locriani]] ([[User talk:Locriani|talk]]) 21:41, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

"Personal information about her had previously been made public on the Internet by anonymous persons Wu linked to GamerGate" - This looks like an affirmative claim that is actually completely unsubstantiated at this point. It should either be solidly evidenced as is or reworded to reflect the tenuous link. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/213.107.6.104|213.107.6.104]] ([[User talk:213.107.6.104|talk]]) 02:08, 18 October 2014 (UTC) 

:Wu posted opinions that are critical of gmaergaters. Wu is then harassed by anonymous people. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to note that the group of people she critiqued would then respond as they only know how to. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 02:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

::The burden of proof here falls onto Wu, she has no evidence that Gamergate supporters were the ones that actually leaked her information aside from her own word. Considering her negative views towards Gamergate I doubt we can consider her unbiased in this situation. The wording in question needs to be changed to reflect the fact it's only a claim that Gamergate supporters leaked her information, so that the article can be more neutral. Oh, and nice biased response. [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 00:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
:::Here's the thing. It's not our problem if you think that Wu was wrong in her determination that it was Gamergate supporters who were behind the leaked information and the subsequent threat to herself and her husband. If people believe her, and that information is presented in the press, then that is what Wikipedia reports on. Unless there are any actual reliable sources saying that the claims that Gamergate is not involved (when Wu said multiple times that she saw her address get posted on 8chan's /gg/ and then the Tweets happened) then there is nothing that should be changed on this article on Wikipedia.—[[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|琉竜]]) 16:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

== GamerGate origins ==
The statement that GamerGate originated for "journalism ethics" is, at best, a contentious claim. The majority of reliable sources tend to depict the alleged ethics concerns as little more than a smokescreen or a thinly-veiled excuse to target Zoe Quinn and others. They tend to use terms such as "ostensibly" and "purportedly" to describe the journalism ethics claims. Since going into a deep dive on that issue is off-topic for this article, I've simply rewritten the section to avoid that debate. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 05:56, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
:Considering the fact that "reliable sources are either colluding with each other, as seen on GameJuornoPros, or have the exact same ideological bias at play, claiming that GamerGate is a "thinly veiled excuse" for anything is, at best, disingenuous. {{unsignedip|77.255.36.87}}
:: Getting to NBSB's original point, my own feeling is that we should follow [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Since there are (at least) two significant views about the topic, both should be represented, the positive and the negative. Most of the sources that discuss Wu seem to be trying to describe GamerGate in the same way, and Wikipedia should, as best we can, summarize the predominant views in the sources, in as unbiased a manner as we can manage. In other words, I would support re-adding the phrase about GamerGate's origins being related to journalistic ethics, as it provides a more well-rounded view of the topic, which is what best serves our readers. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 17:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
:::I invite you to develop phrasing that presents the mainstream, reliably-sourced viewpoint that the ethics issue is a smokescreen, while perhaps noting that a few fringe sources claim otherwise. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 19:42, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
::::The "mainstream, reliably-sourced viewpoint" is currently sourced from [[Polygon]], [[Kotaku]], [[Gawker]] and The Escapist, All of which are outlets that are at the center of the ethics issue that has been presented and therefor should NOT be considered reliable. [[User:Pepsiwithcoke|Pepsiwithcoke]] ([[User talk:Pepsiwithcoke|talk]]) 00:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::Your opinion about those sources is interesting, yet completely irrelevant. The fact that supporters or opponents of a particular POV have criticized particular reliable news sources does not in any way render them unreliable. To do otherwise would give such people a [[heckler's veto]] over what sources could be used in an article.
:::::I further note that the section you removed was sourced to [[Time (magazine)|Time]] and [[The New York Times]], among others. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 00:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::Citations 16, 17, 18 and 20 are all from aforementioned sites and source 19 is from a report that only allowed somebody from one side of the issue to talk, And 15 is clearly biased against the issue. [[User:Pepsiwithcoke|Pepsiwithcoke]] ([[User talk:Pepsiwithcoke|talk]]) 00:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Once again, personal opinions that sources are biased does not render them invalid or otherwise unusable. Otherwise, anyone could say any source is biased and we'd have no sources at all. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 00:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
{{cquote|A set of IRC logs released Saturday appear to show that a handful of 4chan users were ultimately behind #GamerGate, the supposedly grass-roots movement aimed at exposing ethical lapses in gaming journalism. The logs show a small group of users orchestrating a "hashtag campaign" to perpetuate misogynistic attacks by wrapping them in a debate about ethics in gaming journalism.}} — [http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how-4chan-users-pushed-gamergate-into-the-national-spotlight/ Chat logs show how 4chan users created #GamerGate controversy], [[Ars Technica]].
{{cquote| Sarkeesian noted that one of the threats specifically mentioned Gamergate, the anti-woman online movement that purports to be about journalistic ethics.}} — [http://recode.net/2014/10/17/the-gaming-industry-could-stop-gamergate-but-it-wont/ The Gaming Industry Could Stop Gamergate — But It Won’t], [[Re/code]].
{{cquote|Known as "Gamergate," the controversy -- ostensibly over ethics in gaming journalism, but used as a vehicle to lash out against women in the gaming industry -- has shone a spotlight on the ugliest part of gaming culture.}} — [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/15/the-game-industrys-top-trade-group-just-spoke-out-against-gamergate/ The game industry’s top trade group just spoke out against Gamergate], [[Washington Post]].

[[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 02:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

:First Link: Multiple things wrong with the origins of Gamergate, supports an obvious bias against Gamergate, and implies that you can just ignore the #NotYourShield hashtag and other movements just because they started on 4chan. The IRC chat screencaps themselves don't really prove much in terms of the movement itself being "misogynist", and I don't know how seriously we can take them considering they are coming from Zoe Quinn herself.
:Second Link: Again, supports an obvious bias against gamergate, labels harassment that pro-GG supporters have been getting as just a political move, implies that Gamergate doesn't support the open letter made by a group of game developers, reports the skewed statistic that nearly 50% of gamers are women (the actual ratio of men to women in people that play games for a significant amount of time every week is 7 to 1), and the article itself just takes Anita's word on the death threats being Gamergate affiliated, even though Anita herself has posted no evidence to back up this claim.
:Third Link: Most unbiased of the three links (that's not really saying much though), still purports the statistic that nearly 50% of gamers are women, tries to make Gamergate out to be a movement that is "looking to squash the voices of women at all costs", uses Anecdotal evidence to try to say that Gamergate has pushed women developers out of the industry, and again tries to make Gamergate out to be a "a vehicle to lash out against women in the gaming industry" without any real proof.
:None of these links do much to "prove" that Gamergate is a thinly veiled excuse to harass women in video games [[User:Nathan905RB|Nathan905RB]] ([[User talk:Nathan905RB|talk]]) 15:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I find it strange that wikipedia seems to have no problem with being absolutely biased when it comes to #gamergate. Credible sources or not, if those sources do nothing but follow the lead of the very same organizations like Kotaku that #gamergate goes up against.
The action of a few angry individuals can certainly not be equaled with a movement supported by thousands of people.
Brianna Wu states that #gamergate has been attacking people for years, when it only exists for a few months.
She claims that the whole #gamergate movement is behind the attack on her, just because she was on a #gamergate related thread before the attacks started.
Wu has an agenda that has nothing to do with gamergate and she's just using the alleged attack by #gamergate to get publicity for her cause to change video games according to her wishes, whether you see those wishes as positive or not.
Watch this interview with her, it's all there for everyone to see and hear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETVcInunAss[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 04:24, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

::[[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]], it's important here to avoid personal attacks, and in this case I think it is also prudent to avoid the appearance of personal attacks. Please limit your discussion to improving the article -- what Brianna Wu may or may not believe, or may or may not have said, is irrelevant unless it is reported in reliable sources. If, for example, the New York Times reports that "Brianna Wu states that GG has been attacking people since 2001," then that might be pertinent to the article. But your assertion of what you think you heard, or what you think someone told you they heard, is not in Wikipedia terms a reliable source. Note, too, that since this article concerns Gamergate, it falls under the special sanctions that apply to that topic, and your persistent reposting of unsubstantiated claims may lead to action by any administrator. [[User:MarkBernstein|MarkBernstein]] ([[User talk:MarkBernstein|talk]]) 20:59, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

:::::[[User:MarkBernstein|MarkBernstein]] Okay, that is not my intention here. While I might not agree with her positions on some topics, I have absolutely nothing against the Person Brianna Wu or want to attack her. Yet, after reading this article, I found that her claims were written in in as facts and that is what I wanted to point out. This claim is also not unsubstantiated, as I post a link to an interview with The David Pakman show that she did, it was posted on youtube on the 27th Oct 2014, by the Talk Show's youtube-channel. And in this interview she made the claims I posted and when she was asked to clarify how she same to this conclusion, she said the interviewer made a "hit piece attack." I just wanted to draw attention to that. If my post is in anyway wrong, please clarify what I need to change to make it acceptable. [[User:Die-yng|Die-yng]] ([[User talk:Die-yng|talk]]) 21:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2014 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Brianna Wu|answered=yes}}


Reviews by random users on a random website should not be included in this wiki, the information is not relevant and is strictly opinion of nobody in particular.

" One reviewer on Pocket Gamer called it intelligent and "hugely entertaining". Another cited some issues with pacing and a heavily linear storyline, but overall found it "enjoyable and compelling"

should all be removed.

[[User:Fill In Blanko|Fill In Blanko]] ([[User talk:Fill In Blanko|talk]]) 17:01, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

:Rather disingenuously, you make it sound as if these were anonymous reviews by users on websites, when in reality it is a review written by a staffer on a notable gaming website. Nothing will be removed on this basis of this post. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 17:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

== This line needs editing, it's kind of a mess. ==

" Her father had grown up in the small town of D'Lo, Mississippi, then joined the U.S. Navy to get a medical degree, and upon returning to Mississippi, opened his own clinic, and then with his wife, a series of other small entrepreneurial businesses, so Brianna was exposed at an early age to a dynamic environment of small businesses and the computers to run them."

Run on sentence, needs to be reworded.

== Image ==

[[File:Brianna Wu.jpg|right|thumb|Brianna Wu draws for the 2008 [[Alzheimer's Research Trust]] "Match it for [[Terry Pratchett|Pratchett]]" campaign]]
In [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brianna_Wu&oldid=prev&diff=631618903 this edit], [[User:Sandstein]] reverted my addition of this image of Brianna Wu to the article infobox, with the comment '''"Sadly not a useful image, as one doesn't really see her face"'''. Now, while it is correct that the image doesn't show her face very well, and one that did would be better; it is, however, the best free image we have, and as such is a whole lot better than nothing. It does show part of her face, and that she is Caucasian (which, with her last name, might surprise some), pale, rather thin, has long brown straight hair, and wears dresses; all that might not be enough to unambiguously identify her, but it would certainly serve to distinguish between her and most other people (which can be quite useful [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AFrank_Wu.jpg&diff=138116982&oldid=66204286 for example]); and it shows her contributing to a notable charity event, demonstrating that she is a charitable type and at least a minor celebrity of sorts. As such, I think it is certainly worth the amount of space in the article which it would occupy, and should still be there until we get a better image. Please [[wp:brd|discuss]]. --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 15:39, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

:No image is better than a bad image, IMO. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

::I agree. Per [[WP:LEADIMAGE]], part of our manual of style: "Lead images should be images that are natural and appropriate visual representations of the topic; they not only should be illustrating the topic specifically, but should also be the type of image that is used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works, and therefore what our readers will expect to see. Lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic." This very poor image is not how we expect a person's biographical article to be illustrated - we instead expect something similar to a conventional portrait. We should avoid using this borderline-useless image. What's visually pertinent about a person is her face, used to identify her, not individual factoids such as her ethnicity or choice of dress or that she attends charity venues. [[User:Sandstein|''' Sandstein ''']] 16:31, 29 October 2014 (UTC)