https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=ImDeadAsADoornailWikipedia - User contributions [en]2024-10-28T05:14:59ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.43.0-wmf.28https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:WWGB&diff=1136282975User talk:WWGB2023-01-29T16:40:48Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
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<div>{{archive box|[[/Archive 1|Archive 1]]. [[/Archive 2|Archive 2]]. [[/Archive 3|Archive 3]]. [[/Archive 4|Archive 4]]. [[/Archive 5|Archive 5]]. [[/Archive 6|Archive 6]]. [[/Archive 7|Archive 7]]. [[/Archive 8|Archive 8]]. [[/Archive 9|Archive 9]]. [[/Archive 10|Archive 10]]. [[/Archive 11|Archive 11]]. [[/Archive 12|Archive 12]]}}<br />
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_138#WP%3ANOTMEMORIAL_and_victim_lists_in_tragedy_articles]<br />
== My Awards ==<br />
{{collapse-top}}<br />
{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|gray}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fdffe7}}};"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Tireless_Contributor_Barnstar.gif|100px]]<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Tireless Contributor Barnstar'''<br />
|-|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | I hereby award you this [[barnstar]] for your tireless contributions and upkeep of the [[Recent Deaths]] pages; your efforts are appreciated. Keep up the good work! [[User:Weatherman90|Weatherman90]] 03:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|gray}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fdffe7}}};"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="top" | [[Image:BoNM_-_Australia.png|50px]]<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: bottom; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Australian Barnstar of National Merit'''<br />
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|style="vertical-align: top; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | for your efforts with Australian articles [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 00:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|gray}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fdffe7}}};"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Tireless_Contributor_Barnstar.gif|100px]]<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Tireless Contributor Barnstar'''<br />
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|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | This is for your tireless contributions and work on the [[Recent Deaths]] section. I stride to make my edits like yours. Keep up the good work! [[User:Chandlerjoeyross|Chandlerjoeyross]] ([[User talk:Chandlerjoeyross|talk]]) 22:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: white;"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Deathstar award.png|100px]]<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''Death Star'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | This '''Death Star''' award is again for all your hard work on the [[Recent Deaths]] pages. [[User:Kiwipat|Kiwipat]] ([[User talk:Kiwipat|talk]]) 23:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)<br />
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{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:CPR Barnstar.png|100px]]<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Barnstar of Recovery'''<br />
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|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | I am honored to award you this barnstar for your work in improving the article [[Kelley Abbey]] in the face of pending deletion. Your diligent [[WP:BEFORE|WP:AFTER]] improves the project for all its readers. Great job! '''[[User:MichaelQSchmidt|<span style="color:blue;">Schmidt,</span>]]''' ''[[User talk:MichaelQSchmidt|<sup><small>MICHAEL Q.</small></sup>]]'' 19:45, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
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{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"<br />
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Original Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | For your excellent speedy deletion tagging :). [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 11:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | {{#ifeq:alt|alt|[[File:Original Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[File:Original Barnstar.png|100px]]}}<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Good catches on the Sandy Hook article [[User:Amadscientist|Amadscientist]] ([[User talk:Amadscientist|talk]]) 12:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"<br />
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Team Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Teamwork Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | For excellent work objectively streamlining over-referencing at [[Victoria Leigh Soto]]. [[User:Jokestress|Jokestress]] ([[User talk:Jokestress|talk]]) 12:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| class="barnstar" style="border:1px solid gray; background:#fdffe7;"<br />
|-<br />
|rowspan="2" style="padding-right:5px;" | {{#ifeq:{{{3}}}|alt|[[file:Working Man's Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[Image:Working Man's Barnstar.png|100px]]}}<br />
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|style="font-size:1.65em; padding:0; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Hard Worker's Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For formatting the references on the annual "Deaths in XXXX" pages into a less-unwieldy more-efficient format, thus reducing pageload times. — '''[[User:CAWylie|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">Wylie</span>]][[User talk:CAWylie|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">pedia</span>]]''' 03:36, 28 January 2013 (UTC)<br />
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{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[File:Barnstar of Reversion Hires.png|100px]]<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar'''<br />
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|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Nicos Anastasiades - Well spotted, he created eight such articles before I could get a block in! '''[[User:Ronhjones|<span style="border:1px solid;color:#dfdfdf; padding:1px;background:#ffffdf"><font color="green">&nbsp;Ron<font color="red">h</font>jones&nbsp;</font></span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones|&nbsp;(Talk)]]</sup> 23:48, 27 March 2014 (UTC)<br />
|}<!--template:The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar--><br />
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{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"<br />
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Special Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Special Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Your userpage is brilliant!,<br><br />
I had literally laughed out loud & I thought me laughing at 4am would be impossible but seems not :)<br><br />
Thanks! :),<br><br />
Regards, -[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color:blue;">'''''→Davey'''''</span><span style="color:blue;">'''''2010→'''''</span>]][[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color:orange;">'''''→Talk to me!→'''''</span>]] 03:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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[[File:Kitten in a helmet.jpg|left|150px]]<br />
HI! THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK!<br />
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[[User:JackGann|JackGann]] ([[User talk:JackGann|talk]]) 07:11, 26 July 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br style="clear: both;"/><br />
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{| style="border:1px solid gray; background-color:#fdffe7; width:100%;"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="middle"|<br />
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7;"<br />
|rowspan="1" valign="middle"|{{#if:File:Team_Barnstar.png|[[File:Team_Barnstar.png|{{#if:50|50|100}}px|{{#if:The Teamwork Barnstar|The Teamwork Barnstar|File:Team_Barnstar.png<!--hover text: name of barnstar & optionally, comment-->}}]]}}<br />
|rowspan="1" valign="middle"|{{#if:File:Editors_Barnstar.png|[[File:Editors_Barnstar.png|{{#if:50|50|100}}px|{{#if:The Editor's Barnstar|The Editor's Barnstar|File:Editors_Barnstar.png<!--hover text: name of barnstar & optionally, comment-->}}]]}}<br />
|rowspan="1" valign="middle"|{{#if:File:Working Man's Barnstar.png|[[File:Working Man's Barnstar.png|{{#if:50|50|100}}px|{{#if:The Working Man's Barnstar|The Working Man's Barnstar|File:Working Man's Barnstar.png<!--hover text: name of barnstar & optionally, comment-->}}]]}}<br />
|-<br />
|rowspan="1" valign="middle"|{{#if:File:Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar.png|[[File:Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar.png|{{#if:50|50|100}}px|{{#if:The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar|The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar|File:Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar.png<!--hover text: name of barnstar & optionally, comment-->}}]]}}<br />
|rowspan="1" valign="middle"|{{#if:File:Barnstar of Diligence.png|[[File:Barnstar of Diligence.png|{{#if:50|50|100}}px|{{#if:The Barnstar of Diligence|The Barnstar of Diligence|File:Barnstar of Diligence.png<!--hover text: name of barnstar & optionally, comment-->}}]]}}<br />
|rowspan="1" valign="middle"|{{#if:File:Tireless Contributor Barnstar.gif|[[File:Tireless Contributor Barnstar.gif|{{#if:50|50|100}}px|{{#if:The Tireless Contributor Barnstar|The Tireless Contributor Barnstar|File:Tireless Contributor Barnstar.gif<!--hover text: name of barnstar & optionally, comment-->}}]]}}<br />
|}<br />
|rowspan="2"|<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Multiple Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;"|Thank you for fixing my linkrot on the [[Alan Henning]] page. --[[Special:Contributions/108.176.24.195|108.176.24.195]] ([[User talk:108.176.24.195|talk]]) 02:05, 5 October 2014 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"<br />
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Original Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | [[Dylann Ceriani]] is a very good contribution that also solved an unpleasant problem. Thank you very much for your work on it. [[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 16:32, 11 July 2015 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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[[File:Cute grey kitten.jpg|left|150px]]<br />
Way to pounce! I went to do [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_Cecil_the_lion&curid=47373041&diff=673718868&oldid=673718482 this exact edit] a minute after you... stop reading my mind!<br />
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[[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] <small>Please &#123;&#123;[[Template:re|re]]&#125;&#125;</small> 01:16, 30 July 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br style="clear: both;"/><br />
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{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"<br />
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Editors Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Editor's Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thank you for correcting the Powers Boothe article. I was going to revert it myself, but I figured I'd discuss it in the Talk page. I'm glad someone did it, though. [[User:DTXBrian|DTXBrian]] ([[User talk:DTXBrian|talk]]) 02:24, 15 May 2017 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|gray}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fdffe7}}};"<br />
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Tireless_Contributor_Barnstar.gif|100px]]<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Tireless Contributor Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | I hereby award you this [[barnstar]] for your tireless contributions and upkeep of the [[Deepak Sathe]] page which got merged recently ; your efforts are appreciated. Keep up the good work! [[User:Jehowahyereh|Jehowahyereh]] ([[User talk:Jehowahyereh|talk]]) 06:01, 19 August 2020 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"<br />
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Team Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Teamwork Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thank you for responding to my call for help on [[Talk:Grenfell_Tower_fire]] and your tireless contribution to the page. [[User:Gxrneyme|Gxrneyme]] ([[User talk:Gxrneyme|talk]]) 01:17, 15 June 2017 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
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{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"<br />
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | [[File:WikiDefender Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]<br />
|rowspan="2" |<br />
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar'''<br />
|-<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for reverting the recent vandalism on [[Deaths in 2022]]! [[User:Renewal6|Renewal6]] ([[User talk:Renewal6|talk]]) 11:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
{{collapse-bottom}}<br />
<br />
==My DYK==<br />
{{collapse-top}}<br />
{| class="messagebox {{#ifeq:{{{small|}}}|yes|small|standard}}-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[8 July]], [[2007]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with {{#if:{{{4|}}}|facts|a fact}} from the article{{#if:{{{4|}}}|s|}} '''''[[Birtles Shorrock Goble]]'''''{{#if:{{{4|}}}|{{#if:{{{5|}}}|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{4}}}]]'''''<br />
}}{{#if:{{{5|}}}|{{#if:{{{6|}}}|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{5}}}]]'''''<br />
}}{{#if:{{{6|}}}|, and '''''[[{{{6}}}]]'''''}}, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|}<br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox {{#ifeq:|yes|small|standard}}-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[21 September]], [[2008]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with {{#if:|facts|a fact}} from the article{{#if:|s|}} '''''[[Mick Clough]]'''''{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{4}}}]]'''''<br />
}}{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{5}}}]]'''''<br />
}}{{#if:|, and '''''[[{{{6}}}]]'''''}}, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|} <br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox {{#ifeq:|yes|small|standard}}-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[5 October]], [[2008]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with {{#if:|facts|a fact}} from the article{{#if:|s|}} '''''[[Roger Vanderfield]]'''''{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{4}}}]]'''''<br />
}}{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{5}}}]]'''''<br />
}}{{#if:|, and '''''[[{{{6}}}]]'''''}}, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|} <br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox {{#ifeq:|yes|small|standard}}-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#April 19 2009|April 19, 2009]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with {{#if:|facts|a fact}} from the article{{#if:|s|}} '''''[[Harvey Lowe]]'''''{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{4}}}]]'''''<br />
}}{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} '''''[[{{{5}}}]]'''''<br />
}}{{#if:|, and '''''[[{{{6}}}]]'''''}}, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|} <br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#July 27 2009|July 27, 2009]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Poh Ling Yeow]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page <sub>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]])</sub> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|} <br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#February 1 2010|February 1, 2010]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Kim Hollingsworth]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201002/Kim_Hollingsworth quick check] )</small> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|} <br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#February 23 2010|February 23, 2010]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Crystal Taliefero]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201002/Crystal_Taliefero quick check] )</small> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|}<br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#February 24 2010|February 24, 2010]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Ken Emerson]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201002/Ken_Emerson quick check] )</small> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|}<br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#March 28 2010|March 28, 2010]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Birtles & Goble]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201003/Birtles_%26_Goble quick check] )</small> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|} <br />
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{| class="messagebox standard-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#April 22 2010|April 22, 2010]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Colm Kiernan]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201004/Colm_Kiernan quick check] )</small> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|}<br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#June 4 2010|June 4, 2010]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Marion Grasby]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201006/Marion_Grasby quick check] )</small> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
|} <br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox standard-talk"<br />
|-<br />
|[[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#22 April 2011|22 April 2011]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Samantha McClymont]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that at age 18, [[Australian country music|Australian country music]] singer '''[[Samantha McClymont]]''' was crowned [[Grafton, New South Wales|Grafton]] Jacaranda Queen, named Trans-Tasman Entertainer of the Year, and was a Top 118 finalist for ''[[Australian Idol (season 2)|Australian Idol]]''?'' You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201104/Samantha_McClymont quick check])</small> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
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{{tmbox<br />
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|text = On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#10 November 2011|10 November 2011]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Death of Wang Yue]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that the '''[[Death of Wang Yue|hit-and-run death of a two-year-old girl]]''' has led to a possible "Good Samaritan" law in China?'' {{#if: |The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[]].|{{#ifexist:Template:Did you know nominations/Death of Wang Yue|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template:Did you know nominations/Death of Wang Yue]].|{{#ifexist:Template talk:Did you know/Death of Wang Yue|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template talk:Did you know/Death of Wang Yue]].}} }} }}You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201111/Death_of_Wang_Yue quick check])</small> and add it to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
}}<br />
{{tmbox<br />
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|text = On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#12 January 2014|12 January 2014]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know?]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Death and state funeral of Nelson Mandela]]''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that the sign language interpreter for the '''[[death and state funeral of Nelson Mandela|state memorial service of Nelson Mandela]]''' made meaningless hand gestures that did not reflect established signs?'' You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201401/Death_and_state_funeral_of_Nelson_Mandela quick check])</small> and it will be added to [[WP:DYKSTATS|DYKSTATS]] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know? talk page]].<br />
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|text = On 26 May 2014, '''''[[:Template:In the news|In the news]]''''' was updated with an item that involved the article '''''[[2014 Isla Vista massacre]]''''', which you substantially updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the [[Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates|candidates page]].<br />
}}<br />
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|image = [[Image:Updated DYK query.svg|15px|Updated DYK query]]<br />
|text = On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#13 April 2015|13 April 2015]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[2015 Chapel Hill shooting]]''''', which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that the suspect in '''[[2015 Chapel Hill shooting|the deadly shootings]]''' in [[Chapel Hill, North Carolina]], was the victims' neighbor?'' {{#if: |The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[]].|{{#ifexist:Template:Did you know nominations/2015 Chapel Hill shooting|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template:Did you know nominations/2015 Chapel Hill shooting]].|{{#ifexist:Template talk:Did you know/2015 Chapel Hill shooting|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template talk:Did you know/2015 Chapel Hill shooting]].}} }} }} You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikiviewstats/index.php?page=2015_Chapel_Hill_shooting&datefrom=2015-04-01&dateto=2015-04-31 live views], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201504/2015_Chapel_Hill_shooting daily totals])</small>, and it may be added to [[Wikipedia:Did you know/Statistics|the statistics page]] if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know talk page]].<br />
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|text = On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#5 July 2015|5 July 2015]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Shooting of Walter Scott]]''''', which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that after the '''[[shooting of Walter Scott]]'''—an African-American—in [[North Charleston, South Carolina]], the state government proposed a bill named after him to equip more police officers with body cameras?'' {{#if: |The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[]].|{{#ifexist:Template:Did you know nominations/Shooting of Walter Scott|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template:Did you know nominations/Shooting of Walter Scott]].|{{#ifexist:Template talk:Did you know/Shooting of Walter Scott|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template talk:Did you know/Shooting of Walter Scott]].}} }} }} You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikiviewstats/index.php?page=Shooting_of_Walter_Scott&datefrom=2015-07-01&dateto=2015-07-31 live views], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201507/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott daily totals])</small>, and it may be added to [[Wikipedia:Did you know/Statistics|the statistics page]] if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know talk page]].<br />
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{{tmbox<br />
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|text = On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#9 February 2016|9 February 2016]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Matt Hobden]]''''', which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ''... that '''[[Matt Hobden]]''' scored 65 [[not out]] in a [[Sussex County Cricket Club]] record tenth-wicket [[Glossary of cricket terms#partnership|partnership]] of 164 with [[Ollie Robinson]]?'' {{#if: |The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[]].|{{#ifexist:Template:Did you know nominations/Matt Hobden|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template:Did you know nominations/Matt Hobden]].|{{#ifexist:Template talk:Did you know/Matt Hobden|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template talk:Did you know/Matt Hobden]].}} }} }} You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [http://stats.grok.se/en/201602/Matt_Hobden daily totals])</small>, and it may be added to [[Wikipedia:Did you know/Statistics|the statistics page]] if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know talk page]].<br />
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{{tmbox<br />
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|text = On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#16 July 2017|16 July 2017]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Sam Panopoulos]]''''', which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ''... that '''[[Sam Panopoulos]]''' "invented" the [[Hawaiian pizza]]?'' The nomination discussion and review may be seen at [[Template:Did you know nominations/Sam Panopoulos]]. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2017-07-06&end=2017-07-26&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Sam_Panopoulos Sam Panopoulos])</small>, and it may be added to [[Wikipedia:Did you know/Statistics|the statistics page]] if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know talk page]].<br />
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|text = On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions#14 November 2018|14 November 2018]], '''[[:Template:Did you know|Did you know]]''' was updated with a fact from the article '''''[[Schoharie limousine crash]]''''', which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ''... that the [[Limousine#Stretch limousines|stretch limousine]] involved in '''[[Schoharie limousine crash|the recent crash]]''' near [[Schoharie, New York]], killing 20, appeared at two [[Vehicle inspection in the United States|vehicle inspections]] earlier this year with different [[Vehicle registration plates of New York|license plates]]?'' You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page <small>([[User:Rjanag/Pageview stats|here's how]], [//tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews?start=2018-11-04&end=2018-11-24&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Schoharie_limousine_crash Schoharie limousine crash])</small>, and it may be added to [[Wikipedia:Did you know/Statistics|the statistics page]] if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the [[:Template talk:Did you know|Did you know talk page]].<br />
}}<br />
== A beer for you! ==<br />
<br />
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Export hell seidel steiner.png|70px]]<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | You probably need one about now. Here's hoping for a better year, in particular, one necessitating fewer new articles on terrorist attacks. [[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 17:28, 1 January 2019 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
<br />
== Christchurch mosque shootings ==<br />
<br />
Thanks for keeping the international reactions under control. [[User:Aircorn|AIR<b style="color: green;">''corn''</b>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Aircorn|(talk)]] 08:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I wish to add my thanks as well. We are a country in shock trying to come to grips with the horror. [[User:NealeFamily|NealeFamily]] ([[User talk:NealeFamily|talk]]) 08:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== A kitten for you! ==<br />
<br />
[[File:Kitten in a helmet.jpg|left|150px]]<br />
For your work on [[Christchurch_mosque_shootings]]. <br />
<br />
[[User:Stuartyeates|Stuartyeates]] ([[User talk:Stuartyeates|talk]]) 08:21, 5 April 2019 (UTC)<br />
<br style="clear: both;"/><br />
<br />
== A bowl of strawberries for you! ==<br />
<br />
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Erdbeerteller01.jpg|120px]]<br />
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thanks for your work on the GT page! [[User:MartiniShaw|MartiniShaw]] ([[User talk:MartiniShaw|talk]]) 14:47, 29 November 2019 (UTC)<br />
|}<br />
<br />
{{collapse-bottom}}<br />
<br />
== Fame at last... ==<br />
<br />
[http://www.niemanlab.org/2012/12/how-does-wikipedia-deal-with-a-mass-shooting-a-frenzied-start-gives-way-to-a-few-core-editors/ How does Wikipedia deal with a mass shooting? A frenzied start gives way to a few core editors]. No mention of me though:). Nice diagrams, and a quick look at the page histories of shooting incidents will show a core of regular editors.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 17:30, 19 December 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
HI WWGB, I'm a researcher at Sydney Uni and would like to contact you. I'm not sure how best to do this and hoping this message somehow reaches you....Doctor 17. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Doctor 17|Doctor 17]] ([[User talk:Doctor 17#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Doctor 17|contribs]]) 08:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
:This initial contact led to [https://journals.uic.edu/ojs/index.php/fm/article/download/9530/7780 this article]. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB#top|talk]]) 02:49, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
=== Were you aware? ===<br />
<br />
I assume that you have been made aware of this. But, in the event that you were not, I wanted to point it out to you and bring this to your attention. Your name was mentioned in this article: [http://www.niemanlab.org/2012/12/how-does-wikipedia-deal-with-a-mass-shooting-a-frenzied-start-gives-way-to-a-few-core-editors/ How does Wikipedia deal with a mass shooting? A frenzied start gives way to a few core editors]. Thanks. [[User:Joseph A. Spadaro|Joseph A. Spadaro]] ([[User talk:Joseph A. Spadaro|talk]]) 23:46, 29 December 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Join the club ==<br />
<br />
Hi. Because I am retired, I never realised until very recently that you have also been a victim of harassment from Chris Sherlock. Perhaps the community needs to step up its vigilance for such characters - on second thoughts, perhaps not, the victims of such people usually end up with the thin end of the wedge as I and many others have. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 14:17, 27 August 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== ''The Signpost'': 16 January 2023 ==<br />
<br />
<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2023-01-16}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 2--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * '''[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost|Read this Signpost in full]]''' * [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Single/2023-01-16|Single-page]] * [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Subscribe|Unsubscribe]] * [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 02:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script ([[User:Evad37/SPS]]) --></div></div><br />
<!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1132332528 --><br />
<br />
== article about [[Cerelyn J. Davis]] ==<br />
<br />
Hello, you seem quite experienced here on Wikipedia, and I saw that you edited the page on [[Tyre Nichols]]. The related article, about Memphis chief of police [[Cerelyn J. Davis]] needs a LOT of work, and honestly might be a BLP violation, but I'm not sure. Could you please take a look, I don't know what to do about it. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 02:58, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Great, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cerelyn_J._Davis&diff=1135834519&oldid=1135831911 thank you for that] !! Cheers. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 04:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== BOLD, revert, discuss cycle ==<br />
<br />
I wanted to draw your attention to the widely supported [[WP:BRD]] cycle. The nutshell is a great summary: {{tq|Making bold edits is encouraged, as it will result in either improving an article or stimulating discussion. If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change.}}<br />
You're recent edits at [[Cerelyn J. Davis]] prompted this note.<br />
''i.e.'' please, if your edit gets reverted, feel some onus to start the conversation, not just revert again and put the onus on others. That is the wikipedia norm. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 23:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:{{ping|CT55555}} Exactly! And you should have followed your own advice! You '''B'''oldly added a mirror source [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cerelyn_J._Davis&diff=prev&oldid=1136000999]. Then I '''R'''everted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cerelyn_J._Davis&diff=prev&oldid=1136135874]. That was the '''B R''' part done. Next should be '''D''', but you reverted me [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cerelyn_J._Davis&diff=prev&oldid=1136137439], breaking the '''BRD''' cycle. As you wrote, "if '''your''' edit gets reverted, feel some onus to start the conversation, not just revert again". [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB#top|talk]]) 00:53, 29 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== January 2023 ==<br />
I am very sorry for what I just did. I know you hate me for what I did, WWGB. I know I have been messing around with researching and investigating throughout this month but as a matter of fact, it's my fault for everything I did. I know you and everyone thinks investigating stuff like this was totally "vandalizing". I doubt that, but I truly discover it from various state outlets. It's not you, it was others as well who totally disregard it because of the restricted rules across the site. I just wanted to say that I apologize for what I have been doing too much. It's always my fault for being how stupid I did, and I am truly stupid at adding information. [[Special:Contributions/ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 10:34, 29 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136067486Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:40:40Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* The early lives of the five former officers */</p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|blpo=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
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{{Annual readership}}<br />
<br />
==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
<br />
{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
<br />
Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
<br />
:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
<br />
:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
<br />
:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
<br />
:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
<br />
:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
<br />
:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
<br />
:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
<br />
:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
<br />
:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
<br />
:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
<br />
"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
<br />
The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area). But only one officer (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90 according to Shelby County inmate search) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. <br />
<br />
Various newspapers and outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008 before settling in West Virginia. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but he did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. <br />
<br />
[[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98 according to Shelby County inmate search) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21 and was the youngest to be arrested out of the five involved it. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136067369Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:39:44Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* The early lives of the five former officers */</p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|blpo=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
}}<br />
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{{Annual readership}}<br />
<br />
==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
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:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
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:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
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:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
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:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
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:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
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:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
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:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
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:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
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For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
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"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
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The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area). But only one officer (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. <br />
<br />
Various newspapers and outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008 before settling in West Virginia. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but he did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. <br />
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[[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21 and was the youngest to be arrested out of the five involved it. <br />
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Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136067207Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:38:25Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* The early lives of the five former officers */</p>
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{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
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{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
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==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
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While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
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[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
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:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
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:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
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:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
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:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
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:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
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:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
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:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
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:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
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"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
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The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Various outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008 before settling in West Virginia. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21 and was the youngest to be arrested out of the five involved it. <br />
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Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136067172Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:38:05Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* The early lives of the five former officers + Desmond Mills shocking Connecticut */</p>
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{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
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{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
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{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
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==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
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:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
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:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
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:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
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:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
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:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
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:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
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:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
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:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
<br />
"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
<br />
The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
=== Shock in Connecticut involving Desmond Mills Jr. ===<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Various outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008 before settling in West Virginia. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21 and was the youngest to be arrested out of the five involved it. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136067094Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:37:24Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* The early lives of the five former officers */</p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|blpo=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
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==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
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:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
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:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
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:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
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:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
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:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
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:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
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:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
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:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
<br />
"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
<br />
The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers + Desmond Mills shocking Connecticut==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Various outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008 before settling in West Virginia. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21 and was the youngest to be arrested out of the five involved it. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136066944Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:36:11Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* The early lives of the five former officers */</p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|blpo=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
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<br />
==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
<br />
:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
<br />
:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
<br />
:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
<br />
:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
<br />
:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
<br />
:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
<br />
:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
<br />
:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
<br />
"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
<br />
The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Various outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008 before settling in West Virginia. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21 and was the youngest to be arrested out of the five involved it. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136066913Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:35:55Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* The early lives of the five former officers */</p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|blpo=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
}}<br />
{{censor}}<br />
{{Annual readership}}<br />
<br />
==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
<br />
{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
<br />
Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
<br />
:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
<br />
:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
<br />
:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
<br />
:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
<br />
:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
<br />
:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
<br />
:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
<br />
:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
<br />
:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
<br />
:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
<br />
"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
<br />
The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Various outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008 before settling in West Virginia. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21 and was the youngest to be arrested out of the five involved it. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136066849Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:35:22Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* The early lives of the five former officers */</p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|blpo=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
}}<br />
{{censor}}<br />
{{Annual readership}}<br />
<br />
==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
<br />
{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
<br />
Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
<br />
:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
<br />
:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
<br />
:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
<br />
:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
<br />
:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
<br />
:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
<br />
:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
<br />
:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
<br />
:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
<br />
:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
<br />
"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
<br />
The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Various outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008 before settling in West Virginia. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136066753Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:34:33Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|blpo=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
}}<br />
{{censor}}<br />
{{Annual readership}}<br />
<br />
==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
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:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
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:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
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:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
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:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
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:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
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:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
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:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
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:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
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"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
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The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Various outlets across Connecticut, including CBS station [[WFSB]], FOX station [[WTIC-TV]], and NBC station [[WVIT-TV]], reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136066627Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:33:12Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
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{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
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==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
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While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
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[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
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:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
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:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
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:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
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:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
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:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
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:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
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:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
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:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
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"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
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The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Hartford NBC station [[WVIT-TV]] reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean (B. 9/18/98) joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21. <br />
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Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136066580Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:32:42Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
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==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
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:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
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:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
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:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
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:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
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:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
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:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
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:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
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:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
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For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
<br />
"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
<br />
The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills (B. 3/16/90) was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Hartford NBC station [[WVIT-TV]] reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1136066461Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-28T15:31:39Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
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<div>{{WikiProject banner shell|blpo=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject Biography|class=C|living=no|listas=Nichols, Death of Tyre}}<br />
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{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement|class=C|importance=Mid}}<br />
{{WikiProject Tennessee|class=C|importance=Low}}<br />
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{{Annual readership}}<br />
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==To add to article==<br />
Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
What’s the copyright status of the bodycam<br />
Videos and police telephone pole footage? [[User:Victorgrigas|Victor Grigas]] ([[User talk:Victorgrigas|talk]]) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? [[Special:Contributions/76.190.213.189|76.190.213.189]] ([[User talk:76.190.213.189|talk]]) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... [[User:New hordak from 2018|New hordak from 2018]] ([[User talk:New hordak from 2018|talk]]) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== SCORPION unit success ==<br />
I'll remove the following text: "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests."<br />
<br />
While the success of law enforcement is always a subjective matter, if one is to quantify it, the proxy should at least be convictions. Number of arrests include innocents, and cases where the police failed to gather sufficient evidence, neither of which is any way a success. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 10:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The quote is directly from the video source (timestamp: 3m13s) and although unattributed, it can be safely assumed to have originaly come from the Memphis PD. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 11:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Just because a source write/say something doesn't mean it belong in the article. In this case it does seem plausible that the indirect source is the police department themselves, which is pretty much the worst imaginable source for a qualitative rating. [[User:EBusiness|EBusiness]] ([[User talk:EBusiness|talk]]) 16:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I agree with the removal. I think the fact that the officers were SCORPION officers is relevant, but I don't see how the overall performance of the SCORPION unit (success/failure, arrest rate, etc.) is relevant, as this isn't an article about SCORPION. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::The idea behind inclusion of the quote was to demonstrate that SCORPION officers go hard on crime and basically hunt down and vacuum criminals off the streets, in direct opposition to the arrest rate of regular policemen in the same department. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D08:7386:200:E14F:F06D:9876:CB2D|talk]]) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::As already noted, we don't know who exactly they're "vacuuming" off the street -- "criminals"? Maybe, maybe not. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:26, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::The whole thing seems nonsense anyway. According to [[Memphis Police Department]] it has 2081 or 2142 officers although 1950 employees, don't ask me but either way we can say close to 2000. The population of their jurisdiction is 650,632. It's reasonable to assume even the normal police are making hundreds of arrests per month, probably even per week. So even if all the arrests were of criminals "The unit is very successful, with hundreds of arrests" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=prev&oldid=1135852486] is pretty meaningless without a time period or direct comparison. Even accepting the unit only has 50 officers, it does not tell us it has a higher arrest rate. And a higher arrest rate even if all the people arrested are criminals doesn't prove one is more 'successful' which is frankly a silly term. For example I'm guessing homicide units generally make far fewer arrests per officer-time than street units often dealing with more minor crimes. Try telling a population you want to get rid of units dealing with complicated crimes which may sometimes require length investigations because they're 'unsuccessful' compared to street units since they make so few arrests and see how well that goes down. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Requested move 27 January 2023 ==<br />
{{requested move/dated|Killing of Tyre Nichols}}<br />
<br />
[[:Death of Tyre Nichols]] → {{no redirect|Killing of Tyre Nichols}} – This seems like a clear example of where [[WP:DEATHS]] can be used to provide some helpful guidance. The death was due to homicide (killing of one person by another, whether premeditated or unintentional), but there isn't a murder conviction, so "Killing" is the most appropriate, clear, and accurate title to use. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The problem is the autopsy hasn't been released (yet, or at least, as far as I know it hasn't been released yet), and so we have no official determination that this was a homicide, which is what WP:DEATHS requires for "killing of...". I'm not sure why the autopsy hasn't been released, but there is no official cause of death yet (see e.g. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64404827], [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-we-know-tyre-nichols-death-investigation-into-the-officers-allegedly-responsible/#:~:text=Rodney%20Wells%2C%20Nichols'%20stepfather%2C,a%20beating%20by%20the%20officers.]), and the family's autopsy is not official. I don't see a lot of news reports refer to this as a "killing"; "death" seems more common. We have no source that says this was a homicide, even though it seems to very obviously be a homicide. I'm pretty close to an [[WP:IAR]] support here, but what's holding me back is RS support for this being a homicide aka a killing. I don't personally doubt it, but my personal opinions aren't an RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::That's a fair point. Perhaps this is a little early, since the official cause of death would make it rock solid. Though on the other hand it is well established and reported he "[https://twitter.com/TBInvestigation/status/1612962207070920704 succumbed to his injuries]" after being severely beaten, which is the definition of a homicide, and there are plenty of sources that do say killing, including [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-police-officers-charged-48d48f2137a2f34482274edb1bd1bab2 the AP] and the headline of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-police.html the NYT's ongoing coverage]. I lean towards still moving to "Killing", but your point is well taken. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh! That changes my mind. My overriding concern is [[WP:V]], that we can verify that this was a 'killing' and not just a 'death', and the AP and NYT calling it a 'killing' in their own voice satisfies WP:V in my opinion. '''Support'''. Also I'd point out that there is very little chance that they would be charged with 2nd-degree murder if there wasn't an autopsy that said the cause of death was homicide, even if said autopsy report hasn't been publicly released yet. RMs last 7 days, so I'm pretty sure we'll have either an autopsy report, or a lot more RS calling it a 'killing', before a week has passed. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 15:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' - it should remain "death" until we know that the cause of death is homicide, then it can be changed to "killing." We will know this when the autopsy report is released. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 15:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:I would like to add, just for clarity, that if an autopsy report is released confirming that he ''died by homicide'' before this RM is closed, I '''support'''. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 16:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' unless an autopsy says his death was a homicide. If it does, then I will '''support''' a name change. [[User:TheAmazingRaspberry|TheAmazingRaspberry]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingRaspberry|talk]]) 17:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' due to the ''AP'' and ''NY Times'' sources cited above, and assuming more media report the death as a killing in the coming days. Once the video is made public (as well as autopsy results), we'll see how this changes the language in news coverage. [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 17:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' the man was clearly killed as a result of physical violence. [[User:Spudst3r|Spudst3r]] ([[User talk:Spudst3r|talk]]) 01:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose of now''' - Let's until the cause of death is determined.[[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 18:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''' or perhaps more accurately, '''Wait'''. This is a developing situation and I feel the next days/weeks will probably give us more clarity about what's going on here. [[User:Not A Superhero|Not A Superhero]] ([[User talk:Not A Superhero|talk]]) 19:16, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' – Waiting was very prudent. However, they are now charged with murder.[https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/5-memphis-cops-charged-with-murder-in-tyre-nichols-death-1.6247636] Homicide determination is a prerequisite of murder charges. We should in an orderly manner move this page before the release of the video. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' until it is legally determined one or more of the five cops killed him. Until then, it is a death. Innocent until otherwise proven in a court of law, and all that. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 20:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:No, that's the wrong logic. See [[WP:DEATHS]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Per [[WP:DEATHS]] when the cause of death is '''unknown''', the name is "Death of". Damar Hamlin, a top athlete in the prime of health is 24 and almost died a few weeks ago of ''cardiac arrest''. People die all the time and the reason is not necessarily ''the exact last thing you did''. People are jumping to conclusions here, based on an emotional response.[[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Fun Fact: [[Cardiac arrest]] is a ''sign'' of death, common to all, not a cause. [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' as a waste of time right now. It's not critical that this be exactly right at the earliest possible moment. Let's wait a bit until the answer is clear (e.g. an official cause of death is available) and we don't have to dissect sources and argue about it. In the meantime we can spend out time doing useful things. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose for now''', but would support once we get an autopsy, given that his death happened after the encounter. If the cops are convicted, of course, should be moved to "Murder of", but we shouldn't jump the gun on any of this. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because we don't know it was a homicide so we don't know it was a "killing." It's extremely unlikely that Nichols died of a heart attack before he was hit but [[WP:DEATHS]] (or at least the part of it that guides this situation) was created because such a scenario isn't 100% impossible. I bet I'll switch to support shortly but you didn't hear me say that. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' because realistically 'killing' vs 'death' is honestly not the debate. Regardless of an autopsy and a court outcome, we've all seen the video and KNOW he was killed. The real debate is 'killing' vs 'murder' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/198.41.91.234|198.41.91.234]] ([[User talk:198.41.91.234#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
*'''Oppose''' because the death could be a combination of multiple causes. I always wish ''Wikipedia'' is the source of information and fact but not opinion. Keep the title neutral and provide as mush information as we can would be better. The readers can blend the information with theirs knowledge. [[User:Seinlin|Seinlin]] ([[User talk:Seinlin|talk]]) 00:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*Point of fact - autopsies don't determine the status of a death as a homicide. That's done in a court of law. Autopsy results are certainly relevant, but "homicide" is a legal term, not a medical one.[[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:C77:4E00:3887:3041:8289:B0D7|talk]]) 00:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:Actually at least with regards to most of the US that's incorrect. Autopsies are often the only thing which determines if something is a homicide especially in the case of police killings. Courts only generally get involved in determining if something is an illegal or unjustified homicide. They don't generally concern themselves whether something is a homicide except at a prerequisite for any case which requires something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Absolutely correct. We better brace ourselves for the onslaught of ill-informed amateur legal experts. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 01:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::(EC) Besides police killings to give another obvious example, every successful use of capital punishment involves a homicide but after death courts if they do get involved only generally get involved in other things like whether the killing appeared excessively prolonged or traumatic so may be cruel and unusual punishment, not whether the death was a homicide. This implicitly or explicitly means the courts are accepting the death as a homicide but the lack of any court action doesn't make other such deaths not homicides. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 01:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' - I just watched the video. I don't really feel like engaging in Wikilawyering over something you can see with your own eyes in a video released by the police. Courts may determine that police actions were justified, but whatever they conclude in the end, there is no doubt now that Nichols was killed. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 00:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Also note that [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] above (at the top of this section) cites links from the NYT and AP where those agencies describe Nichols' death as a killing. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support Move''' due to released footages. If he was not beaten he was alive home now. Talking about "multiple causes: he was beaten multiple times, tasered, got head injuries and died after injuries. [[User:Gharouni|<b style="color:navy;">Gharouni</b>]]<sup> [[User talk:Gharouni|<i style="color:orange">Talk</i>]]</sup> 01:27, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose'''. The COD is still open, the death may have been (partly) due to natural causes. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' per Cerebral726. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support.''' I implore anybody who opposes to simply watch the video. It is disgusting. This person was killed. [[User:Jackstraw97|Jackstraw97]] ([[User talk:Jackstraw97|talk]]) 02:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support'''. As per [[WP:DEATHS]] flowchart, and reliable sources stating he was killed:<br />
:#"Fatal Beating" https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis<br />
:#"Deadly beating" https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/officers-charged-tyre-nichols-death-96711213<br />
:#"Fatal beating" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/27/tyre-nichols-protest-video-release<br />
::I do not understand why we need a coroner's report, Wikipedia is not run on the basis of legal certification, it is run on the basis of citing reliable sources.<br />
:[[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Oppose''' for now. <del>If we have an autopsy which concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</del><ins>If we have the official autopsy results and it concluded the death was a homicide then sure.</ins> This case is somewhat unusual compared to most other high profile cases of a similar nature I recall given that we've had the videos releases and the officers indicted but don't yet have even a summary of the autopsy. However I think we need to wait for it at a minimum. If the autopsy is released without finding the death was a homicide, we can reasses based on the sources that emerge but I suspect the result will be us keeping 'death of'. While I don't know much about Tennessee law, I'd note that in general especially given that AFAIK (for some reason our article doesn't mention this) the charges came from a grand jury indictment, there's no guarantee the autopsy ruled the death was a homicide. [[Death of Elijah McClain]] is one notable case where there are charges relating to a homicide despite an undetermined cause of death and I seem to recall others. (Outside police killings, this also happens a lot e.g. [[Death of Caylee Anthony]]. I'd also note in plenty of these cases, we have people who insist we should call them killings or more based on some RS but we rightfully stick with 'death of'.) We obviously cannot OR based on viewing the videos and I don't think even what RS say based on assessment of less than 3 hours is very meaningful either. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <ins>02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</ins><br />
*:I think the concept of "reliable sources" is that we have deemed them to be reliable, rather than conditionally reliable. I think that editors have reached a clear consensus that the sources I mention above are reliable. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::Yet in every other article, we do the same thing as here. If they say something which contradicts other RSes we do not take one as sancrosact because some editor feels it is. We are neutral and where necesssary mention both PoVs and otherwise use wording which applies to both PoVs. If you want to change policy so we take certain RS as sancosanct and ignore other PoVs, you're welcome to start a policy proposal in an appropriate place. I would add "deadly beating" is a terrible term to express the PoV that a beating caused a death since it's a term sometimes used when someone '''does not''' die [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::I would find this more complicated if a reliable source said his death was caused by something other than the police officers, but I've not seen any do that. So I see no contradiction.<br />
*:::I consider "deadly" to be very widely understood to mean "causing death". [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 03:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::::That's ridiculous. There's no requirement that sources need to directly contradict something if they do not state the same conclusion and especially if they say we do not know. And you can consider whatever you want. The fact remains plenty of reliable sources do not use it in that manner, whatever you want to consider. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:::Is there a source which contradicts the claim that Tyre Nichols was killed? --[[User:Jannes Althoff|Jannes Althoff]] ([[User talk:Jannes Althoff|talk]]) 05:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{reply to|Nil Einne}} - I'm a bit perplexed by this focus on a coroner's report or an autopsy. The assumption seems to be that those are more reliable than the slew of sources that have already indicated this was homicide. Is your insistence on the autopsy report something that comes out of policy, or just your own personal guideline? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*::There are many issues include [[WP:BLP]] which mean we have to be very careful about declaring something is a homicide based solely on the fact a few sources say it has. While a homicide can be lawful, in cases where the existence of a homicide may be in dispute, we have to be absolutely sure there is no reasonable dispute. While coroner verdicts are not perfect, they are far better than relying on what some sources have said based solely on non expert analyses of very limited evidence. (I'd note many of the sources people were referring to existed before the videos were released so they weren't even based on viewing these videos but instead third party reports from lawyers, family and the police. But these are precisely the sort of things people will say we have to be very careful with relying on when the alleged killing was not carried out by the police.) Coroners are supposed to be independent medical experts who look into the available medical evidence and determine whether the actions of one or more other humans directly caused the death of the person. While this doesn't always play out in practice, at least in most developed countries their verdicts are generally well accepted such that there's normally far less dispute in reliable sources and we have a BLP compliant reason to say something in Wikipedia voice. Note that we already mention the charges etc, so it's not like people reading the article will be in any doubt that some people say thay Nichols was killed, it's simply a matter of whether we should effectively say it's undisputed by saying in wiki voice that Nichols was killed. As I mentioned below, this doesn't mean coroners verdicts may not be disputed by defences (or sometimes in part prosecutions) but ultimately we have to draw the line somewhere and so provided there does not appear to be obviousy dispute in RS, we generally go by such verdicts. While this case involving a beating seems a case where there is less likely to be a dispute (although I'd also have said that of Rachel Nickell or even [[Death of Elliott Williams]], [[Death of Darren Rainey]] and [[Death of Marcia Powell]] so what do I know?) than something more complicated, but it does seem more complicated than a shooting. Still even in the case of a shooting coroners help to rule out any complications e.g. if it turns out the deceased had actually taken a significant overdose or poison which it's found was the actual cause of death and almost definitely would have caused death even with the shooting. I'd note that if we went solely by what a few sources say, we'd be calling Casey Anthony a murderer, and also those involved in the killings of [[Killing of Natalie Connolly]] and [[Killing of Rachel Nickell]] and as I already mentioned Elijah McClain (which we still call death) likewise as murderers. For good reason we do not do so. Yet we do call [[Killing of Eric Garner]] a killing although it's my understanding lawyer for those involved still dispute that it was, and I think even some parts of the police union again based on the fact that the coroner's verdict is widely accepted in RS no matter what these other parties say. Additional, we have to take reasonable care with early reporting, and especially for analyses of the video but frankly for anything in this case (since although it has been nearly 20 days since the death a lot of the stuff is quite recent), as later reporting relying on more evidence and without the time pressures of early reporting can be more nuanced and balanced. Remember that by saying "death of" this doesn't mean it wasn't a killing, as I mentioned early on in we already go into detail and are likely to more over time over such things in the article. We are simply avoiding saying it definitely in wiki voice. Again BLP means we have to get things right so we should always defer to caution about being wrong when saying anything involving living persons. A final note probably my last in this entire discussion, I generally avoid them because while they matter for BLP reasons, I find them silly. I've already spent probably an hour or more discussing this and I'm sure when take other editors time it's been many hours and this is over something which is probably going to be resolved in a week or two at most. IIRC we had a similar issue with [[Murder of George Floyd]] where after the video came out there a strong push by some to name the article killing of but we waited until the autopsy summary. (My memory seems correct [[Talk:Murder of George Floyd/Archive 1#Requested move 27 May 2020]]. Indeed it came out before the RM was due for closure which could even happen here.) I've never understood why people feel it's so urgent we risk violating BLP by saying something which we ultimately cannot take back when when if they're right and there is no dispute it's very likely we can say it in a week or two at most and where as I already noted, we do already provide the context and it's only a matter of whether we say it in wiki voice. Admittedly this case seems a little different gives the charges have happened but there's still not even a summary, however I haven't read anything to suggest it's going to take that long. If it turns out the autopsy verdict isn't as clear as we'd like well then as I said, we can assess what sources say at the time. It may be like with Elijah McClain they accept there's dispute and so are nuanced in what they say. Or maybe they'll won't be. We can deal with that if we come to it. (Likewise if it's a month later and there's still no autopsy, we can deal with that at the time.) [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Support.''' I think that, even though the autopsy has not been released (to my knowledge), the video of his death is evidence enough that this was a homicide. [[User:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|Technicalrestrictionadjustment]] ([[User talk:Technicalrestrictionadjustment|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' - My "gut" is to go w/ "Death of.." until there's a conviction. That said, as [[User:CT55555]] astutely notes, the policy illustrated by the [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(violence_and_deaths)#Flowchart]] seems to clearly indicate that when one person kills another, it's "Killing of..". I haven't really delved into the sources, but it seems pretty clear that this guy was killed by others at this point. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 03:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*:{{replyto|NickCT}} Can you further explain how following the flow chart leads to that conclusion? The flow chart says "{{tqi|What was the manner of death?}}" There's no direct explanation for what this means in the flowchart itself but in the "How to use the flowchart" section it says: "{{tqi|A determination of the manner of death should be made by some official authority, such as a coroner, coroner's inquest, medical examiner or similar expert person or organization. This determination becomes eligible for use on this flowchart only after it is reported by a secondary source.}}". Who is the official authority here? The grand jury? The prosecutor? The police chief? The editors of the NYT? [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 09:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:'''Support''' he was killed by police, see bodycam videos [[User:DefendingFree|DefendingFree]] ([[User talk:DefendingFree|talk]]) 10:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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'''Support'''--We do not need a conviction or an autopsy to rule this a killing. There is a video of this man being beaten to death. He was killed. Natural causes did not claim his life and the technicalities of how he died don't matter. He was put into critical condition by five people who quite frankly didn't care if he died but he did. He was killed. [[User:Settlementboa|Settlementboa]] ([[User talk:Settlementboa|talk]]) 04:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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I support once there is more reliable confirmation (of the obvious): that the actions of the police were the "but for" cause of his death. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Per [[User:CT55555|CT55555]]; the flowchart on [[WP:DEATHS]] clearly indicates "killing" at this time. (due to the absence of a murder conviction) [[User:Aaryan33056|<span style="font-family:Segoe Print;color:#B30000;text-shadow: 6px 6px 20px #000000, -6px -6px 20px #000000">''Aaryan''</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Aaryan33056|📬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aaryan33056|🥰]]</sup> 06:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' - This is a killing, there is no doubt. The article may later be changed to "homicide" after a murder conviction is obtained, until then we have more than enough evidence to call this a killing and not a death. [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81|talk]]) 06:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.145.248.81|47.145.248.81]] ([[User talk:47.145.248.81#top|talk]]) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
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:One alternate option could be something along the lines of "Beating and death of Tyree Nichols" [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Homocide requires a "but for" act (either an action or act of omission) by another individual. We all '''know''' there was one. Problem is, we don't ''verifiably'' know it (in the sense that a source has outright declared it to be the case in writing).<br />
:Us declaring, "well, we know it based off of the conclusions we've reached ourselves watching the video" probably violates to "no original research" principle at Wikipedia. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry but that's simply incorrect. If it's a killing it a homicide as the flow chart says, that's what we mean by killing, a person was killed by one or more other people whether legally or illegally i.e. a homicide. There's no such thing as a killing which is not a homicide. As I explained above, if it's a homicide, the court case ultimately only deals with whether it's a legal homicide. (Of course a defence in a court case can also dispute whether something is a homicide, an autopsy is not treated as a sacrosanct decision that cannot be overruled either way. However at least in the US, while juries and judges may decide this, it's not generally directly part of their ultimate verdict as that only deals with the entire case including whether it's unlawful. For decisions by judges, the decision may sometimes include an explanatory which discuss the aspect however for juries there is generally no such thing and instead you only have comments later made by individual jurors which are not in any way part of the actual verdict.) Therefore coroners are often the only official party to make a verdict on whether something is a homicide. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 10:05, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' He was killed. [[WP:DEATHS]] [[User:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #000000">'''TarkusAB'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''talk'''</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/TarkusAB|<span style="color: #aa0000">'''contrib'''</span>]]</sup> 07:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Oppose''' wp:nor - two ambulance tech workers were fired because..., blood loss was fatal because... wp:npov - police intentions were...[[User:Createangelos|Createangelos]] ([[User talk:Createangelos|talk]]) 08:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Respectfully, when 5 men step on a bug, and it dies, they can't just remove themselves from the equation because it was an accident, or because the bug tried to run away, or because the bug did something wrong, or because the bug has unhealthy habits. The death would not have happened the way that it did without their involvement. They killed him.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Strongly Support''' There now exists 4 separate video angles of Tyre Nichols being severely beaten. As one of the officers involved stated, immediately after removing his body camera and pointing it at the sky: "I was hitting him with straight haymakers, dog." Tyre Nichols didn't punch, kick, or bat himself in the head. He would not have died the way that he did if he were not beaten as severely as he was. I think the officers' behavior immediately after the incident, including their characterization of the confrontation, including the claim that he reached for their weapons, implies that they knew they went too far and were trying to create an excuse for how far they went.[[User:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|LkeYHOBSTorItEwA]] ([[User talk:LkeYHOBSTorItEwA|talk]]) 11:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' It's a matter of fact. Per above and RS stating he was killed. Shouldn't be a point of contention. [[User:ToeSchmoker|ToeSchmoker]] ([[User talk:ToeSchmoker|talk]]) 10:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*'''Support''' [[WP:DEATHS]] says that the title should be "Killing of" when the cause of death is known, not that a specific document is required. RS clearly say he was killed. [[User:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|Dan Wylie-Sears 2]] ([[User talk:Dan Wylie-Sears 2|talk]]) 13:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' Everyone knows it was a killing, everyone is calling it a killing.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 14:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Support''' As per [[WP:DEATHS]]. "Death of" is pseudoneutrality which arguably shifts agency away from those who killed him.--[[User:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|''MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!'']]<sub>([[User talk:Mychemicalromanceisrealemo|talk or whatever]])</sub> 15:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Unmarked police cruiser image ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I saw you removed the image of the unmarked cruiser. I added the photo because it was of a type of vehicle the police officers specifically used: an unmarked Memphis police cruiser, as used by SCORPION: seen in [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=633537771338252&ref=sharing this video], and mentioned to be of relevance in [https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/crime/memphis-police-allowed-to-make-traffic-stops-unmarked-cars-tyre-nichols/522-0c8f73e5-7aac-4ce6-96ce-aee4343ff9e0 this article]. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 20:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Sorry, where in that source is that particular style of vehicle described as being the one used in this incident? And even if it is, how would the reader's understanding of the incident be enhanced by their seeing that one or more of the cars was (I dunno) a Chevy versus a Dodge -- in a random photo from 10 years ago? And were they all the cars the same? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Benjamin Crump ==<br />
{{re|EEng}}, I'm a little confused while you think it's not worth noting the family hired [[Benjamin Crump]], the attorney for the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Jacob Blake. That is highly publicized and notable. Regardless, with the number of sources stating he has joined the case, it is at least worth mentioning in a single sentence. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I think this could be better phrased as something like "Benjamin Crump, an attorney with past experience representing the families police brutality victims." To readers who might have zero familiarity or poor recollection of the other cases, that list of names is meaningless/provides zero context. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 07:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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Additionally, the presence of protests is part of what makes the case notable. It is very odd to not include even a single sentence mentioning that they have already started. [[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 22:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:*If sources ''on Nichols'' say that Crump was the attorney in those other cases, then it's definitely worth reporting that "The family hired attorney BC, who had represented X, Y, and Z." Just saying they hired an attorney is [[WP:DUH|not surprising]].<br />
:*The article's text said, literally, nothing more than that "there were protests" -- nothing about where, when, how extensive, anything. [[WP:DUH]]! That tells the reader nothing. In a few minutes, no doubt there will be something far more substantial to report, so let's just wait a bit and there will be plenty of sources with lots of detail.<br />
:[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::While the fact that they hired an attorney isn't surprising, given that the particular attorney is notable there is no reason to not include a mention of who they are. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Including the race of Nichols and the officers ==<br />
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{{u|Ponyo}} and {{u|WWGB}} have both removed text from the article indicating that Nichols and the officers involved were all African American, with WWGB arguing that "ethnicity is irrelevant". I disagree with this because reliable sources have chosen to mention the race of the people involved here, for example the first sentence of [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/us/tyre-nichols-timeline.html a NY Times article] mentions Nichols's race: {{tpq|The death of Tyre Nichols has provoked outrage and prompted state and federal investigations in the weeks since Mr. Nichols, a 29-year-old Black man, died after being pulled over by the police in Memphis.}}. [https://www.nytimes.com/article/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-dead.html Another article] also mentions the race of the police: {{tpq|The police, in an initial statement, said that a “confrontation occurred” as the officers, all of whom are also Black, approached Mr. Nichols’s vehicle on the evening of Jan. 7 and he ran away.}}<br />
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Since reliable sources include this information, and therefore deem it relevant enough to the event to include, there is not a valid justification to exclude it here. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 23:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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*Agreed. These are factual statements (supported my many reliable sources). Both Tyre Nichols and all five of the officers involved are black. Simple. No commentary necessary. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 23:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*I added the race of Nichols and the officers given that it is pertinent to understanding the significance of the topic. Readers may assume that the officers are white (as I did).<br />
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:This discussion has happened plenty of times before, but the ultimate deciding factor is how reliable sources treat this topic. Here's a compilation of reliable sources highlighting the race of Nichols and the officers:<br />
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:'''CNN''': [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/opinions/tyre-nichols-memphis-police-department-jones/index.html 1], [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/01/27/rowvaughn-wells-tyre-nichols-ex-cops-black-community-intv-cnntm-vpx.cnn 2], [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html 3]. <br />
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:'''ABC News''': [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tyre-nichols-timeline-investigation-death/story?id=96695791 1]<br />
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:'''CBS News''': [https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-release/ 1]<br />
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:'''The New York Times''': [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis 1] <br />
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:'''BBC''': [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-64427257 1]<br />
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:'''NBC News''': [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-we-know-about-memphis-police-officers-tyre-nichols-death-rcna67861 1]<br />
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:'''Reuters''': [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/memphis-braces-video-fatal-police-encounter-with-black-motorist-2023-01-27/ 1]<br />
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:'''Associated Press''': [https://apnews.com/article/tyre-nichols-video-memphis-police-e3ee8e6698faae16df3f41d09234b09f 1]<br />
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:'''The Washington Post''': [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/01/27/tyre-nichols-video-police-beating-live/ 1] <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 00:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Yes, unfortunately without an explicit mention of race/ethnicity, "whiteness" may often be assumed as the default. And I agree that how reliable sources treat the topic should be the deciding factor. Thanks for the breakdown, with links. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 00:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' although not for the same reason as the first two editors here seem to have. (Are they both prepared to add this information to every single person on Wikipedia whose ethnicity can be reliably sourced?) Instead, I'm beyond bewildered that, in 2023, anyone still believes "'[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135965302&oldid=1135964613 ethnicity is irrelevant, this is not a race-based matter]'" when the subject at hand is another unarmed Black man dying after violence from police. Is this whole situation really being reported and really affecting people exactly the same as it would have if all the officers had been white? Come on. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 00:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include'''. Anyone who thinks that because the cops and the corpse have the same skin color, there can't be a racial element, doesn't know what he's talking about. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' obviously.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 00:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include,''' given the racial dynamics of policing in the United States. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. The names of the victim and officers are clearly minority. Plus by excluding the racial descriptions along with the obvious national interest by the media it's a "wink wink, nod nod" as to which minority that all the actors and victim belong. Let's not mimic the sensationalistic media but instead take the high road and leave race out of the equation. Otherwise the trolls will appear and criticize the fitness of the police officers based on.. well.. race. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/73.251.100.160|73.251.100.160]] ([[User talk:73.251.100.160#top|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><br />
::So you're saying we don't need to mention the ethnicity of the involved because they have Black names like "Justin Smith." Wow. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Exclude'''. This is a matter of [[WP:RELEVANCE]]. This was a black-on-black issue, and there is no evidence that race played any part in the incident. Deaths like [[Murder of Jared Lakey]], which was a white man's death by white police, does not mention ethnicity anywhere in the article. To include ethnicity in a black-on-black issue has a racist undertone. And [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]] in the media needs to find its way into Wikipedia. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 01:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Accusing other editors of racism is not a particularly good high-note to what you're attempting to state. <span style="font-family: monospace;">[[User talk:ElijahPepe|elijahpepe@wikipedia]] (he/him)</span> 02:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' because all the RS include it, which means we do include it, because we do in fact include everything -- all significant information -- that's in the RS. Suggesting race ''isn't'' relevant because it's black-on-black betrays a misunderstanding of how systemic racism works. Readers will obviously want to know the races of the police and the victim in any American police brutality case--that's why all the RS give that detail. To suggest race isn't relevant is just ignorant. That the victim is black is an important detail regardless of the race of the cops. That the cops ''aren't'' white is also an important detail. <p><del>Also, I'm tired of fighting WWBG on this issue on every article. Race will be included in every article about police killing an unarmed person in the US, because it's always highly relevant to the topic. WWBG loses this argument every time. At some point, it become tendentious to push this issue at every new article about this topic.</del> [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 02:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**{{ping|Levivich}} Oh, really? We fight "this issue on every article"? And I "lose this argument every time"? I would REALLY like to see evidence of these assertions. Come on, show us what you've got! [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]]. Cheers! [[Special:Contributions/98.155.8.5|98.155.8.5]] ([[User talk:98.155.8.5|talk]]) 03:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
**:Sorry {{u|WWGB}}, I owe you an apology, I was confusing editor names, my comment was unwarranted. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 03:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Every reliable source that I have read has noted that the victim and attackers are Black. If reliable sources widely consider it relevant, I think that is the indicator we need to look for. [[User:CT55555|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,blue);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">'''CT55555'''</span>]]<small>([[User talk:CT55555|talk]])</small> 02:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include''' - This is a fact noted by RS. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' - it's clear from RS this is a major issue in this case, and even both the family and police chief talked about it in some way. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 03:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' This is noted in [[WP:RS|reliable secondary sources]]. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 03:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:'''Include'''. Prominent [[WP:RS]] including CNN, ABC, CBS, BBC, NBC, Reuters, AP, etc., all have noted that the victim and attackers are black. When reliable sources widely consider it relevant, that's your clue. [[User:XavierItzm|XavierItzm]] ([[User talk:XavierItzm|talk]]) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Include. We lose context to understanding. We cause no harm or misrepresentation by including it.<br />
<br />
For George Floyd’s murder we mention Chauvin’s race within the first sentence of the lead. [[User:SecretName101|SecretName101]] ([[User talk:SecretName101|talk]]) 05:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*'''Include''' Reliable sources have made mention of it.[[User:StarTrekker|★Trekker]] ([[User talk:StarTrekker|talk]]) 15:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== facts based article ==<br />
<br />
since this is an ongoing issue at the moment, I think there's a need for fact-checkers to support reliable references. and perhaps anyone writing on this could hopefully spare themselves sentimental or emotional tones in their writing. [[Special:Contributions/158.140.162.238|158.140.162.238]] ([[User talk:158.140.162.238|talk]]) 04:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Go for it! Although you should probably get an account first since this article is probably going to be put under protection and anonymous editors won't be able to change it. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;>''[[User talk:CityOfSilver|<font color="#EDDA74">City</font>]]<font color="Green">O</font><font color="Red">f</font>[[Special:Contribs/CityOfSilver|<font color="#708090">Silver</font>]]''</b> 04:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Falsely accused of reckless driving? ==<br />
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"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols[a] died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."<br />
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The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It ''could have'' occurred, but off camera. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
*{{re|Schierbecker}} - wording is gone now. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The lede ==<br />
<br />
The lede is currently very awkwardly written. It needs to be restructured and clarified. I added one comma and was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Tyre_Nichols&oldid=prev&diff=1136002343 reverted] because someone thought it made the attack and Tyre Nichols' death sound separate, so I need some help here.<span id="Nythar:1674887654403:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:Be [[WP:BOLD|bold]]. [[User:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|<b style="color: #8B0000;"> ''Iamreallygoodatcheckers''</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers|t@lk]]</sup> 06:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Thanks. I made a minor edit; hopefully this works.<span id="Nythar:1674888561942:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::{{reply to|Nythar}} The comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. RS connect the two events, so there shouldn't be a comma. [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::[[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]], the comma serves to separate two statements. This doesn't mean they aren't related or one is not caused by the other.<span id="Nythar:1674888925159:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 06:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
:::::{{reply to|Nythar}} I suppose I just think it reads better and makes more logical sense without the comma, because the two events are inseparable according to RS. Perhaps the opening phrase {{tquote|On January 10, 2023,}} could be removed to make the first sentence more concise without a comma? [[User:CJ-Moki|CJ-Moki]] ([[User talk:CJ-Moki|talk]]) 06:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::I would disagree that the comma makes the beating and Nichols' death sound separate. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|exalt]])''' 07:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::"On January 10, 2023," and "Tyre Nichols died" and "three days after a traffic stop..." are three separate parts of the sentence. I added a comma between the second and third, simply because it sounds easier to read; less awkward-sounding somehow.<span id="Nythar:1674889489590:TalkFTTCLNDeath_of_Tyre_Nichols" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|❄️]]) 07:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</span><br />
Using pronouns might help with some clunkiness. There's no need to repeat "Nichols" when he's the central figure. In most paragraphs, he's the only one who wouldn't be "they". [[User:InedibleHulk|InedibleHulk]] ([[User talk:InedibleHulk|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== The early lives of the five former officers ==<br />
According to details I just found, four out of the five arrested officers were originally Memphis-area citizens (including cities in Mississippi surrounding the Memphis area), while one (Desmond Ainsworth Mills Jr.) is originally a resident of [[Bangor, Maine]], [[Hartford, Connecticut]], [[Bloomfield, Connecticut]], and [[Charleston, West Virginia]]. Mills was notable for forming a local business called D&M Relations, LLC, registered in Memphis. Hartford NBC station [[WVIT-TV]] reported that Mills Jr. was a former graduate of [[Bloomfield High School (Connecticut)|Bloomfield High School]] in Bloomfield in 2008. However, it was unclear when he moved to Memphis but did join law enforcement and the MPD in March 2017. [[Olive Branch, Mississippi]]-native Tadarrius Bean joined MPD in 2020 at the age of 21. <br />
<br />
Does anybody have more information involving the five former officers? [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 08:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ImDeadAsADoornail&diff=1135885477User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail2023-01-27T13:21:03Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
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== BLP at Idaho killings talk ==<br />
<br />
Hey, IDAAD, I'm going to ask you to stop adding any details about whether or not the suspect has family that could be identified. We don't care, and these people deserve privacy. Please just stop even discussing it at the talk page. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 01:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, I know everyone wants to make this fair-and-square, but I decided to give up on editing. You can terminate me if you want, I don't care at all. I tried to bring more information but I went 100% too far. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::IDAAD, rather than giving up, be open to learning. <br />
::You're very new here, and WP has a very steep learning curve, and you're editing at a fast-moving article where there are multiple especially tricky bits of policy to understand.<br />
::Generally it's best for new editors to edit somewhere that isn't a developing story with BLP or other tricky policy. But it's fine if you want to continue to edit there, you just will have to be open to people pointing out fairly often where you're going wrong, because in such a case a new editor usually will go wrong in several ways. Because the article is a developing story, there are a lot of other editors there, and they're busy doing things like preventing vandalism and BLP violations, which means they may not have time to be as patient with a newer editor who is learning (as they would if you were editing at, say, [[Double Dragon II (Game Boy)]]). <br />
::When someone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something, don't be discouraged. Just go learn why. In the case of trying to track down family members, the policy at [[WP:BLP]] and pages linked from there. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just terminate me from Wikipedia, I don't care. I suck at investigating. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::You aren't ''supposed'' to be investigating. We aren't investigative journalists. We report what reliable sources are saying about a subject. There's a huge difference. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just look, I found Kohberger's date of birth of November 21, 1994, in a CBS News article involving Kohberger. Fox News reported on where he went to High School in Brodheadsville (yes, Kohberger lived in the Lehigh Valley for the longest time) and even talked about Kohberger on how shy he was which was said by a student at the school. His mother, Maryann, also made national headlines involving her poem she made about Uvalde to one of her two sisters Melissa who was a mental health therapist in [[Jersey City, New Jersey]]. I saw it from various pages, not just the New York Post. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::That's trivia. We aren't writing a bio of the guy. The article is not about him, it's about the incident. If you've read the posts at the talk page you've seen us discussing whether even including ''his name'' is necessary at this point. And we'd certainly never dream of including the name of his mother unless it turned out she was an accomplice. Never, not in a million years do we include that. That's one of the tricky bits of policy I was talking about above. You are welcome to stay here and keep working, and I'm not going to "terminate you from Wikipedia", but you are going to have to learn our policy. <br />
::::For now, unless you find it in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, or the Idaho Statesman, you shouldn't be adding it to that article. For now you also should not be adding a single word to that article without also ''adding the source'' where you found it. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::I get it now. I saved the information from a Google Document which is better than here on wiki. So once the situation gets all cleaned up, our team will discuss about extra details but it won't happen now but later in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== [[WP:BLOATED]] ==<br />
<br />
Please stop trying to add these minor excess details about neighboring towns (e.g. "in the neighboring town of [[Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania|Brodheadsville]]", " in [[Center Valley, Pennsylvania|Center Valley]] outside [[Allentown, Pennsylvania|Allentown]]"). Most readers don't know or care about these small neighboring towns and the details hold no significance to the case nor suspect themselves. It's [[WP:BLOATED|bloating]] up the section with trivial, minor details. Thanks. [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 16:39, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:I will fix it for you. I am sorry. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:NewsAndEventsGuy, you are right and I was wrong. Go ahead and terminate my account or something, because I don't care about what I did earlier. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== unsourced content ==<br />
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Where did you find [[Special:Diff/1130617888|this information about his birth date and high school]]? I am not seeing it in the source you added, even the crap NY Post source? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Valereee]], it seems like the user is ignoring their talk page messages after you had notified them that they had talk page messages [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1130813423&diff=1130816289&diffmode=source]. The user is adding back all of the reverted content [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130898923&oldid=1130844977][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130902700&oldid=1130899465] (and is even naming the suspect's mother using unreliable sources). It seems like a [[WP:IDHT]] issue; could something be done about this? Thank you, [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 15:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I found his birth date on CBS News's article, and Fox News for the high school as well. Read here: https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murder-suspect-kohberger-pennsylvania-classmates-say-he-was-bright-awkward-bullied-school https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bryan-kohberger-arrested-suspect-idaho-murders/ [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Any time you see an article entitled something like "What do we know about (Suspect Y)", you should remind yourself ''what the article we're writing is about.'' This article is about the incident. It is not a biography of the suspect. <br />
::News media try to track down every detail they can find about a suspect because they know the public will give them clicks for it. Wikipedia does not care about clicks. We care about including relevant information that helps the reader understand the article subject. <br />
::In this case the fact his mother wrote poetry and her name and his birth date and where he went to high school ''does not help the reader understand the incident that is the subject of this article.'' Frankly we could call him "John Doe, 28, a PhD student in criminology who was arrested in Pennsylvania after driving the white Elantra there from Idaho" and that would basically tell the reader everything we know that would contribute to their understanding of the incident. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::I get it now, but let's leave it for now. We will discuss on adding more information involving him including his DOB and a bit of other life in the Lehigh Valley but not now. Definitely in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 16:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::Probably won't happen in the future either. This article is never going to be about the suspect. The only details of his life we'll likely ever include are ones the prosecution brings up in court as evidence against him. Even if there's a murder conviction, unless it turns out he's suspected of previous murders, it's unlikely we'd ever need a bio for him. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::Well judging by other results and after reading about Kohberger's traffic stop violations near two unnamed towns in Indiana, it is 100% possible that we probably need a Wiki page about Kohberger himself; but we need to wait until more information gets through. As I said involving other incidents, suspects like Kohberger had a backstory behind it. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::Are you talking about the stops for following too closely? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 00:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Yes. The Kohbergers were pulled over twice on their trip back to the Poconos. First for Speeding and the other for Tailgating, both in Indiana (probably on the same Interstate). If you look through the latest from Law&Crime, dashcam shows the one Indiana State Police trooper pulling over the same Hyundai Elantra Bryan and his 67-year-old father Michael Jr. was in. He was heading back to his family's house in Chestnuthill Township when both traffic violations occur. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 01:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Traffic stops don't make someone notable. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 17:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I know that's not notable, but that's weeks before arrest. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 18:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::We typically do not create a bio on someone who is only famous for being arrested or convicted of a crime, per [[WP:CRIMINAL]]. A couple of traffic tickets a couple of weeks before would not change that. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 18:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::I get it now. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Disambiguation ==<br />
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Hello. At [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] I feel that the title should be trimmed to {{em|Half Moon Bay shootings}} as HMB only has a population of 10,000 and has a very low crime rate. We are supposed to use succinct article titles. Are you up to {{em|Moving}} it? Cheers! <code>&#123;&#123;u&#124;[[User:WikiWikiWayne|WikiWikiWayne]]&#125;&#125;&nbsp;{[[User talk: WikiWikiWayne|Talk]]}</code> 07:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 ==<br />
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[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add content, as you did at [[:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please stop adding unsourced trivia. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. ''Again, please stop adding unsourced trivia to articles about current events. We really do not need to add every detail we can possibly dig up into articles. We add content ''that helps the reader understand the subject''. There is no universe in which knowing the maroon SUV driven by the [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] suspect was a third-generation Lexus RX350 contributes to a reader's understanding of that subject, and it's apparently your own original research which has identified the make/model.''<!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|unsourced or poorly sourced]] content, as you did at [[:Lakeside, California]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. <!-- Template:uw-unsourced3 --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 11:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]]. ''The edit summary [[Special:Diff/1135661343| here]] is original research. You've been repeatedly warned about inserting [[WP:original research]] into articles. You are showing a complete inability or unwillingness to try to understand what Wikipedia is. I am becoming increasingly concerned, in particular because you seem to want to work at recent mass casualty events, which means BLP policy is always in play, and you seem to be intent upon adding trivial detail, using original research to find those details, and willing to violate BLP policy to include those details.''<!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 13:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:You caught me. I'll never vandalize Wikipedia ever again... Read my message in the continue section... [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Wikipedia and copyright ==<br />
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[[File:Control copyright icon.svg|30px|link=|alt=Control copyright icon]] Hello ImDeadAsADoornail! Your additions to [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]] have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the [[public domain]] or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a [[WP:COMPLIC|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. (''To request such a release, see [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission]]''.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid [[copyright]] and [[plagiarism]] issues.<br />
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*You can only copy/translate a ''small'' amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double [[quotation mark]]s (") and cite the source using an [[Wikipedia:Inline citation|inline citation]]. You can read about this at [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] in the sections on "text". See also [[Help:Referencing for beginners]], for how to cite sources here.{{#ifeq: | 1 |</strong>}}<br />
*Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information ''in your own words and structure'', in proper [[paraphrase]]. Following the source's words too closely can create [[derivative work|copyright problems]], so it is not permitted here; see [[Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing]]. Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] the information and to demonstrate that the content is not [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]].{{#ifeq: | 2 |</strong>}}<br />
*We have strict guidelines on the usage of copyrighted images. [[Fair use]] images must meet all ten of the [[Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria|non-free content criteria]] in order to be used in articles, or they will be deleted. To be used on Wikipedia, all other images must be made available under a free and open copyright license that allows commercial and derivative reuse.<br />
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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-copyright-new --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 continued ==<br />
<div class="user-block" style="padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px">[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been '''[[WP:Partial blocks|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing certain [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespaces]] ((Article)) for [[WP:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. --><code><nowiki>{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}</nowiki></code>. &nbsp;[[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-pblock --><br />
IDAAD, [[Special:Diff/1135779096|this]] is the last straw for me. I am blocking from article space. You may continue to suggest edits on talk pages, but for now you should not be adding content to articles. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, it's my fault for what I did throughout this month. And I just wanted to apologize for what I did so far. I know you are not going to accept this plea, but I am very sorry. Because I know you are very angry at me for what I just did. I have recently read all of your and Scottish's guidances on my talk page. And I understand them now. I'm just a stupid person. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:47, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Thank you so much for blocking me. I deserve to be blocked anyway and this could be my last straw on quitting Wikipedia. Although I am pretty new here, but I just quit.<br />
:{{unblock reviewed|decline=In order to be unblocked you'll have to demonstrate that you understand the sourcing requirements, especially for BLPs. Most of your edits have shown sourcing issues, not only your edits to BLPs. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 00:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)|1=I'm very sorry for breaking the fourth wall multiple times, and this is my last straw here that I won't be adding BLPs or other unsourced information from important events ever again. Go ahead and continue my block if you want and I'll be happy about it. But for unblocking me, I will still quit and not edit as much. Previously, I exactly wanted to get permanently banned from Wikipedia but I decided to move on. But now, I am very close for quitting Wikipedia especially in a younger account age. I don't care if I am new for not. Just go ahead and continue my block or go ahead and permanently ban me if you wish.}} [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== I quit Wikipedia ==<br />
I'm done. I quit.</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ImDeadAsADoornail&diff=1135813247User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail2023-01-27T00:51:44Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* January 2023 continued */</p>
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<div>== Welcome! ==<br />
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Hi ImDeadAsADoornail! I noticed [[Special:Contributions/ImDeadAsADoornail|your contributions]] and wanted to welcome you to the Wikipedia community. I hope you like it here and decide to stay.<br />
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Happy editing! <!-- Template:Welcome--> [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 00:37, 24 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Disambiguation link notification for November 30==<br />
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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[List of explosions]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Caernarvon Township, Pennsylvania]]<!-- ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/List_of_explosions check to confirm]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/List_of_explosions?client=notify fix with Dab solver])-->. Such links are [[WP:INTDABLINK|usually incorrect]], since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. <small>(Read the [[User:DPL bot/Dablink notification FAQ|FAQ]]{{*}} Join us at the [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links|DPL WikiProject]].)</small><br />
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It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these [[User:DPL bot|opt-out instructions]]. Thanks, [[User:DPL bot|DPL bot]] ([[User talk:DPL bot|talk]]) 06:02, 30 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
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== BLP at Idaho killings talk ==<br />
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Hey, IDAAD, I'm going to ask you to stop adding any details about whether or not the suspect has family that could be identified. We don't care, and these people deserve privacy. Please just stop even discussing it at the talk page. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 01:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, I know everyone wants to make this fair-and-square, but I decided to give up on editing. You can terminate me if you want, I don't care at all. I tried to bring more information but I went 100% too far. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::IDAAD, rather than giving up, be open to learning. <br />
::You're very new here, and WP has a very steep learning curve, and you're editing at a fast-moving article where there are multiple especially tricky bits of policy to understand.<br />
::Generally it's best for new editors to edit somewhere that isn't a developing story with BLP or other tricky policy. But it's fine if you want to continue to edit there, you just will have to be open to people pointing out fairly often where you're going wrong, because in such a case a new editor usually will go wrong in several ways. Because the article is a developing story, there are a lot of other editors there, and they're busy doing things like preventing vandalism and BLP violations, which means they may not have time to be as patient with a newer editor who is learning (as they would if you were editing at, say, [[Double Dragon II (Game Boy)]]). <br />
::When someone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something, don't be discouraged. Just go learn why. In the case of trying to track down family members, the policy at [[WP:BLP]] and pages linked from there. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just terminate me from Wikipedia, I don't care. I suck at investigating. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::You aren't ''supposed'' to be investigating. We aren't investigative journalists. We report what reliable sources are saying about a subject. There's a huge difference. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just look, I found Kohberger's date of birth of November 21, 1994, in a CBS News article involving Kohberger. Fox News reported on where he went to High School in Brodheadsville (yes, Kohberger lived in the Lehigh Valley for the longest time) and even talked about Kohberger on how shy he was which was said by a student at the school. His mother, Maryann, also made national headlines involving her poem she made about Uvalde to one of her two sisters Melissa who was a mental health therapist in [[Jersey City, New Jersey]]. I saw it from various pages, not just the New York Post. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::That's trivia. We aren't writing a bio of the guy. The article is not about him, it's about the incident. If you've read the posts at the talk page you've seen us discussing whether even including ''his name'' is necessary at this point. And we'd certainly never dream of including the name of his mother unless it turned out she was an accomplice. Never, not in a million years do we include that. That's one of the tricky bits of policy I was talking about above. You are welcome to stay here and keep working, and I'm not going to "terminate you from Wikipedia", but you are going to have to learn our policy. <br />
::::For now, unless you find it in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, or the Idaho Statesman, you shouldn't be adding it to that article. For now you also should not be adding a single word to that article without also ''adding the source'' where you found it. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::I get it now. I saved the information from a Google Document which is better than here on wiki. So once the situation gets all cleaned up, our team will discuss about extra details but it won't happen now but later in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== [[WP:BLOATED]] ==<br />
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Please stop trying to add these minor excess details about neighboring towns (e.g. "in the neighboring town of [[Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania|Brodheadsville]]", " in [[Center Valley, Pennsylvania|Center Valley]] outside [[Allentown, Pennsylvania|Allentown]]"). Most readers don't know or care about these small neighboring towns and the details hold no significance to the case nor suspect themselves. It's [[WP:BLOATED|bloating]] up the section with trivial, minor details. Thanks. [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 16:39, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:I will fix it for you. I am sorry. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== DS Alert BLP ==<br />
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{{ivmbox | image = Commons-emblem-notice.svg |imagesize=50px | bg = #E5F8FF | text = This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. ''It does '''not''' imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.''<br />
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You have shown interest in '''articles about [[WP:Biographies of living persons|living or recently deceased people]], and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles.''' Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|discretionary sanctions]] is in effect. Any administrator may impose [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Sanctions|sanctions]] on editors who do not strictly follow [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies]], or the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Page restrictions|page-specific restrictions]], when making edits related to the topic.<br />
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To opt out of receiving messages like this one, place {{tlx|Ds/aware}} on your user talk page and specify in the template the topic areas that you would like to opt out of alerts about. For additional information, please see the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Guidance for editors|guidance on discretionary sanctions]] and the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee|Arbitration Committee's]] decision [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons|here]]. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.<br />
}}<!-- Derived from Template:Ds/alert --><nowiki> ~~~~</nowiki> [[User:NewsAndEventsGuy|NewsAndEventsGuy]] ([[User talk:NewsAndEventsGuy|talk]]) 19:20, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:NewsAndEventsGuy, you are right and I was wrong. Go ahead and terminate my account or something, because I don't care about what I did earlier. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== unsourced content ==<br />
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Where did you find [[Special:Diff/1130617888|this information about his birth date and high school]]? I am not seeing it in the source you added, even the crap NY Post source? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Valereee]], it seems like the user is ignoring their talk page messages after you had notified them that they had talk page messages [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1130813423&diff=1130816289&diffmode=source]. The user is adding back all of the reverted content [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130898923&oldid=1130844977][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130902700&oldid=1130899465] (and is even naming the suspect's mother using unreliable sources). It seems like a [[WP:IDHT]] issue; could something be done about this? Thank you, [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 15:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I found his birth date on CBS News's article, and Fox News for the high school as well. Read here: https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murder-suspect-kohberger-pennsylvania-classmates-say-he-was-bright-awkward-bullied-school https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bryan-kohberger-arrested-suspect-idaho-murders/ [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Any time you see an article entitled something like "What do we know about (Suspect Y)", you should remind yourself ''what the article we're writing is about.'' This article is about the incident. It is not a biography of the suspect. <br />
::News media try to track down every detail they can find about a suspect because they know the public will give them clicks for it. Wikipedia does not care about clicks. We care about including relevant information that helps the reader understand the article subject. <br />
::In this case the fact his mother wrote poetry and her name and his birth date and where he went to high school ''does not help the reader understand the incident that is the subject of this article.'' Frankly we could call him "John Doe, 28, a PhD student in criminology who was arrested in Pennsylvania after driving the white Elantra there from Idaho" and that would basically tell the reader everything we know that would contribute to their understanding of the incident. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::I get it now, but let's leave it for now. We will discuss on adding more information involving him including his DOB and a bit of other life in the Lehigh Valley but not now. Definitely in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 16:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::Probably won't happen in the future either. This article is never going to be about the suspect. The only details of his life we'll likely ever include are ones the prosecution brings up in court as evidence against him. Even if there's a murder conviction, unless it turns out he's suspected of previous murders, it's unlikely we'd ever need a bio for him. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::Well judging by other results and after reading about Kohberger's traffic stop violations near two unnamed towns in Indiana, it is 100% possible that we probably need a Wiki page about Kohberger himself; but we need to wait until more information gets through. As I said involving other incidents, suspects like Kohberger had a backstory behind it. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::Are you talking about the stops for following too closely? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 00:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Yes. The Kohbergers were pulled over twice on their trip back to the Poconos. First for Speeding and the other for Tailgating, both in Indiana (probably on the same Interstate). If you look through the latest from Law&Crime, dashcam shows the one Indiana State Police trooper pulling over the same Hyundai Elantra Bryan and his 67-year-old father Michael Jr. was in. He was heading back to his family's house in Chestnuthill Township when both traffic violations occur. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 01:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Traffic stops don't make someone notable. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 17:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I know that's not notable, but that's weeks before arrest. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 18:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::We typically do not create a bio on someone who is only famous for being arrested or convicted of a crime, per [[WP:CRIMINAL]]. A couple of traffic tickets a couple of weeks before would not change that. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 18:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::I get it now. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Disambiguation ==<br />
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Hello. At [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] I feel that the title should be trimmed to {{em|Half Moon Bay shootings}} as HMB only has a population of 10,000 and has a very low crime rate. We are supposed to use succinct article titles. Are you up to {{em|Moving}} it? Cheers! <code>&#123;&#123;u&#124;[[User:WikiWikiWayne|WikiWikiWayne]]&#125;&#125;&nbsp;{[[User talk: WikiWikiWayne|Talk]]}</code> 07:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 ==<br />
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[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add content, as you did at [[:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please stop adding unsourced trivia. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. ''Again, please stop adding unsourced trivia to articles about current events. We really do not need to add every detail we can possibly dig up into articles. We add content ''that helps the reader understand the subject''. There is no universe in which knowing the maroon SUV driven by the [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] suspect was a third-generation Lexus RX350 contributes to a reader's understanding of that subject, and it's apparently your own original research which has identified the make/model.''<!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|unsourced or poorly sourced]] content, as you did at [[:Lakeside, California]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. <!-- Template:uw-unsourced3 --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 11:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]]. ''The edit summary [[Special:Diff/1135661343| here]] is original research. You've been repeatedly warned about inserting [[WP:original research]] into articles. You are showing a complete inability or unwillingness to try to understand what Wikipedia is. I am becoming increasingly concerned, in particular because you seem to want to work at recent mass casualty events, which means BLP policy is always in play, and you seem to be intent upon adding trivial detail, using original research to find those details, and willing to violate BLP policy to include those details.''<!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 13:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:You caught me. I'll never vandalize Wikipedia ever again... Read my message in the continue section... [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Wikipedia and copyright ==<br />
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[[File:Control copyright icon.svg|30px|link=|alt=Control copyright icon]] Hello ImDeadAsADoornail! Your additions to [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]] have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the [[public domain]] or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a [[WP:COMPLIC|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. (''To request such a release, see [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission]]''.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid [[copyright]] and [[plagiarism]] issues.<br />
<br />
*You can only copy/translate a ''small'' amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double [[quotation mark]]s (") and cite the source using an [[Wikipedia:Inline citation|inline citation]]. You can read about this at [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] in the sections on "text". See also [[Help:Referencing for beginners]], for how to cite sources here.{{#ifeq: | 1 |</strong>}}<br />
*Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information ''in your own words and structure'', in proper [[paraphrase]]. Following the source's words too closely can create [[derivative work|copyright problems]], so it is not permitted here; see [[Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing]]. Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] the information and to demonstrate that the content is not [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]].{{#ifeq: | 2 |</strong>}}<br />
*We have strict guidelines on the usage of copyrighted images. [[Fair use]] images must meet all ten of the [[Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria|non-free content criteria]] in order to be used in articles, or they will be deleted. To be used on Wikipedia, all other images must be made available under a free and open copyright license that allows commercial and derivative reuse.<br />
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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-copyright-new --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 continued ==<br />
<div class="user-block" style="padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px">[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been '''[[WP:Partial blocks|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing certain [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespaces]] ((Article)) for [[WP:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. --><code><nowiki>{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}</nowiki></code>. &nbsp;[[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-pblock --><br />
IDAAD, [[Special:Diff/1135779096|this]] is the last straw for me. I am blocking from article space. You may continue to suggest edits on talk pages, but for now you should not be adding content to articles. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, it's my fault for what I did throughout this month. And I just wanted to apologize for what I did so far. I know you are not going to accept this plea, but I am very sorry. Because I know you are very angry at me for what I just did. I have recently read all of your and Scottish's guidances on my talk page. And I understand them now. I'm just a stupid person. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:47, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Thank you so much for blocking me. I deserve to be blocked anyway and this could be my last straw on quitting Wikipedia. Although I am pretty new here, but I just quit.<br />
:{{unblock reviewed|decline=In order to be unblocked you'll have to demonstrate that you understand the sourcing requirements, especially for BLPs. Most of your edits have shown sourcing issues, not only your edits to BLPs. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 00:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)|1=I'm very sorry for breaking the fourth wall multiple times, and this is my last straw here that I won't be adding BLPs or other unsourced information from important events ever again. Go ahead and continue my block if you want and I'll be happy about it. But for unblocking me, I will still quit and not edit as much. Previously, I exactly wanted to get permanently banned from Wikipedia but I decided to move on. But now, I am very close for quitting Wikipedia especially in a younger account age. I don't care if I am new for not. Just go ahead and continue my block or go ahead and permanently ban me if you wish.}} [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ImDeadAsADoornail&diff=1135813080User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail2023-01-27T00:50:17Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* January 2023 continued */</p>
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Happy editing! <!-- Template:Welcome--> [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 00:37, 24 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Disambiguation link notification for November 30==<br />
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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[List of explosions]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Caernarvon Township, Pennsylvania]]<!-- ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/List_of_explosions check to confirm]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/List_of_explosions?client=notify fix with Dab solver])-->. Such links are [[WP:INTDABLINK|usually incorrect]], since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. <small>(Read the [[User:DPL bot/Dablink notification FAQ|FAQ]]{{*}} Join us at the [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links|DPL WikiProject]].)</small><br />
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== BLP at Idaho killings talk ==<br />
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Hey, IDAAD, I'm going to ask you to stop adding any details about whether or not the suspect has family that could be identified. We don't care, and these people deserve privacy. Please just stop even discussing it at the talk page. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 01:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, I know everyone wants to make this fair-and-square, but I decided to give up on editing. You can terminate me if you want, I don't care at all. I tried to bring more information but I went 100% too far. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::IDAAD, rather than giving up, be open to learning. <br />
::You're very new here, and WP has a very steep learning curve, and you're editing at a fast-moving article where there are multiple especially tricky bits of policy to understand.<br />
::Generally it's best for new editors to edit somewhere that isn't a developing story with BLP or other tricky policy. But it's fine if you want to continue to edit there, you just will have to be open to people pointing out fairly often where you're going wrong, because in such a case a new editor usually will go wrong in several ways. Because the article is a developing story, there are a lot of other editors there, and they're busy doing things like preventing vandalism and BLP violations, which means they may not have time to be as patient with a newer editor who is learning (as they would if you were editing at, say, [[Double Dragon II (Game Boy)]]). <br />
::When someone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something, don't be discouraged. Just go learn why. In the case of trying to track down family members, the policy at [[WP:BLP]] and pages linked from there. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just terminate me from Wikipedia, I don't care. I suck at investigating. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::You aren't ''supposed'' to be investigating. We aren't investigative journalists. We report what reliable sources are saying about a subject. There's a huge difference. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just look, I found Kohberger's date of birth of November 21, 1994, in a CBS News article involving Kohberger. Fox News reported on where he went to High School in Brodheadsville (yes, Kohberger lived in the Lehigh Valley for the longest time) and even talked about Kohberger on how shy he was which was said by a student at the school. His mother, Maryann, also made national headlines involving her poem she made about Uvalde to one of her two sisters Melissa who was a mental health therapist in [[Jersey City, New Jersey]]. I saw it from various pages, not just the New York Post. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::That's trivia. We aren't writing a bio of the guy. The article is not about him, it's about the incident. If you've read the posts at the talk page you've seen us discussing whether even including ''his name'' is necessary at this point. And we'd certainly never dream of including the name of his mother unless it turned out she was an accomplice. Never, not in a million years do we include that. That's one of the tricky bits of policy I was talking about above. You are welcome to stay here and keep working, and I'm not going to "terminate you from Wikipedia", but you are going to have to learn our policy. <br />
::::For now, unless you find it in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, or the Idaho Statesman, you shouldn't be adding it to that article. For now you also should not be adding a single word to that article without also ''adding the source'' where you found it. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::I get it now. I saved the information from a Google Document which is better than here on wiki. So once the situation gets all cleaned up, our team will discuss about extra details but it won't happen now but later in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== [[WP:BLOATED]] ==<br />
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Please stop trying to add these minor excess details about neighboring towns (e.g. "in the neighboring town of [[Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania|Brodheadsville]]", " in [[Center Valley, Pennsylvania|Center Valley]] outside [[Allentown, Pennsylvania|Allentown]]"). Most readers don't know or care about these small neighboring towns and the details hold no significance to the case nor suspect themselves. It's [[WP:BLOATED|bloating]] up the section with trivial, minor details. Thanks. [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 16:39, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:I will fix it for you. I am sorry. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== DS Alert BLP ==<br />
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{{ivmbox | image = Commons-emblem-notice.svg |imagesize=50px | bg = #E5F8FF | text = This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. ''It does '''not''' imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.''<br />
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You have shown interest in '''articles about [[WP:Biographies of living persons|living or recently deceased people]], and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles.''' Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|discretionary sanctions]] is in effect. Any administrator may impose [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Sanctions|sanctions]] on editors who do not strictly follow [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies]], or the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Page restrictions|page-specific restrictions]], when making edits related to the topic.<br />
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To opt out of receiving messages like this one, place {{tlx|Ds/aware}} on your user talk page and specify in the template the topic areas that you would like to opt out of alerts about. For additional information, please see the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Guidance for editors|guidance on discretionary sanctions]] and the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee|Arbitration Committee's]] decision [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons|here]]. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.<br />
}}<!-- Derived from Template:Ds/alert --><nowiki> ~~~~</nowiki> [[User:NewsAndEventsGuy|NewsAndEventsGuy]] ([[User talk:NewsAndEventsGuy|talk]]) 19:20, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:NewsAndEventsGuy, you are right and I was wrong. Go ahead and terminate my account or something, because I don't care about what I did earlier. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== unsourced content ==<br />
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Where did you find [[Special:Diff/1130617888|this information about his birth date and high school]]? I am not seeing it in the source you added, even the crap NY Post source? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Valereee]], it seems like the user is ignoring their talk page messages after you had notified them that they had talk page messages [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1130813423&diff=1130816289&diffmode=source]. The user is adding back all of the reverted content [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130898923&oldid=1130844977][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130902700&oldid=1130899465] (and is even naming the suspect's mother using unreliable sources). It seems like a [[WP:IDHT]] issue; could something be done about this? Thank you, [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 15:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I found his birth date on CBS News's article, and Fox News for the high school as well. Read here: https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murder-suspect-kohberger-pennsylvania-classmates-say-he-was-bright-awkward-bullied-school https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bryan-kohberger-arrested-suspect-idaho-murders/ [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Any time you see an article entitled something like "What do we know about (Suspect Y)", you should remind yourself ''what the article we're writing is about.'' This article is about the incident. It is not a biography of the suspect. <br />
::News media try to track down every detail they can find about a suspect because they know the public will give them clicks for it. Wikipedia does not care about clicks. We care about including relevant information that helps the reader understand the article subject. <br />
::In this case the fact his mother wrote poetry and her name and his birth date and where he went to high school ''does not help the reader understand the incident that is the subject of this article.'' Frankly we could call him "John Doe, 28, a PhD student in criminology who was arrested in Pennsylvania after driving the white Elantra there from Idaho" and that would basically tell the reader everything we know that would contribute to their understanding of the incident. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::I get it now, but let's leave it for now. We will discuss on adding more information involving him including his DOB and a bit of other life in the Lehigh Valley but not now. Definitely in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 16:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::Probably won't happen in the future either. This article is never going to be about the suspect. The only details of his life we'll likely ever include are ones the prosecution brings up in court as evidence against him. Even if there's a murder conviction, unless it turns out he's suspected of previous murders, it's unlikely we'd ever need a bio for him. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::Well judging by other results and after reading about Kohberger's traffic stop violations near two unnamed towns in Indiana, it is 100% possible that we probably need a Wiki page about Kohberger himself; but we need to wait until more information gets through. As I said involving other incidents, suspects like Kohberger had a backstory behind it. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::Are you talking about the stops for following too closely? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 00:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Yes. The Kohbergers were pulled over twice on their trip back to the Poconos. First for Speeding and the other for Tailgating, both in Indiana (probably on the same Interstate). If you look through the latest from Law&Crime, dashcam shows the one Indiana State Police trooper pulling over the same Hyundai Elantra Bryan and his 67-year-old father Michael Jr. was in. He was heading back to his family's house in Chestnuthill Township when both traffic violations occur. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 01:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Traffic stops don't make someone notable. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 17:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I know that's not notable, but that's weeks before arrest. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 18:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::We typically do not create a bio on someone who is only famous for being arrested or convicted of a crime, per [[WP:CRIMINAL]]. A couple of traffic tickets a couple of weeks before would not change that. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 18:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::I get it now. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Disambiguation ==<br />
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Hello. At [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] I feel that the title should be trimmed to {{em|Half Moon Bay shootings}} as HMB only has a population of 10,000 and has a very low crime rate. We are supposed to use succinct article titles. Are you up to {{em|Moving}} it? Cheers! <code>&#123;&#123;u&#124;[[User:WikiWikiWayne|WikiWikiWayne]]&#125;&#125;&nbsp;{[[User talk: WikiWikiWayne|Talk]]}</code> 07:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 ==<br />
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[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add content, as you did at [[:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please stop adding unsourced trivia. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. ''Again, please stop adding unsourced trivia to articles about current events. We really do not need to add every detail we can possibly dig up into articles. We add content ''that helps the reader understand the subject''. There is no universe in which knowing the maroon SUV driven by the [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] suspect was a third-generation Lexus RX350 contributes to a reader's understanding of that subject, and it's apparently your own original research which has identified the make/model.''<!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|unsourced or poorly sourced]] content, as you did at [[:Lakeside, California]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. <!-- Template:uw-unsourced3 --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 11:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]]. ''The edit summary [[Special:Diff/1135661343| here]] is original research. You've been repeatedly warned about inserting [[WP:original research]] into articles. You are showing a complete inability or unwillingness to try to understand what Wikipedia is. I am becoming increasingly concerned, in particular because you seem to want to work at recent mass casualty events, which means BLP policy is always in play, and you seem to be intent upon adding trivial detail, using original research to find those details, and willing to violate BLP policy to include those details.''<!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 13:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:You caught me. I'll never vandalize Wikipedia ever again... Read my message in the continue section... [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Wikipedia and copyright ==<br />
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[[File:Control copyright icon.svg|30px|link=|alt=Control copyright icon]] Hello ImDeadAsADoornail! Your additions to [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]] have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the [[public domain]] or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a [[WP:COMPLIC|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. (''To request such a release, see [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission]]''.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid [[copyright]] and [[plagiarism]] issues.<br />
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*You can only copy/translate a ''small'' amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double [[quotation mark]]s (") and cite the source using an [[Wikipedia:Inline citation|inline citation]]. You can read about this at [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] in the sections on "text". See also [[Help:Referencing for beginners]], for how to cite sources here.{{#ifeq: | 1 |</strong>}}<br />
*Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information ''in your own words and structure'', in proper [[paraphrase]]. Following the source's words too closely can create [[derivative work|copyright problems]], so it is not permitted here; see [[Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing]]. Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] the information and to demonstrate that the content is not [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]].{{#ifeq: | 2 |</strong>}}<br />
*We have strict guidelines on the usage of copyrighted images. [[Fair use]] images must meet all ten of the [[Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria|non-free content criteria]] in order to be used in articles, or they will be deleted. To be used on Wikipedia, all other images must be made available under a free and open copyright license that allows commercial and derivative reuse.<br />
*If ''you'' own the copyright to the source you want to copy or are a legally designated agent, you ''may'' be able to license that text so that we can publish it here. Understand, though, that unlike many other sites, where a person can license their content for use there and retain non-free ownership, that is not possible at Wikipedia. Rather, the release of content must be irrevocable, ''to the world'', into either the [[public domain]] (PD) or under a [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Copyright#Can I add something to Wikipedia that I got from somewhere else?|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. Please see [[Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials]].<br />
*Also note that Wikipedia articles may not be copied or translated without attribution. If you want to copy or translate from another Wikipedia project or article, you must follow the copyright attribution steps described at [[Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia]]. See also [[Help:Translation#License requirements]].<br />
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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-copyright-new --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 continued ==<br />
<div class="user-block" style="padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px">[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been '''[[WP:Partial blocks|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing certain [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespaces]] ((Article)) for [[WP:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. --><code><nowiki>{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}</nowiki></code>. &nbsp;[[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-pblock --><br />
IDAAD, [[Special:Diff/1135779096|this]] is the last straw for me. I am blocking from article space. You may continue to suggest edits on talk pages, but for now you should not be adding content to articles. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, it's my fault for what I did throughout this month. And I just wanted to apologize for what I did so far. I know you are not going to accept this plea, but I am very sorry. Because I know you are very angry at me for what I just did. I have recently read the BLP page, the unsourced page, and other guidances as well. And I understand them now. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:47, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Thank you so much for blocking me. I deserve to be blocked anyway and this could be my last straw on quitting Wikipedia. Although I am pretty new here, but I just quit.<br />
:{{unblock reviewed|decline=In order to be unblocked you'll have to demonstrate that you understand the sourcing requirements, especially for BLPs. Most of your edits have shown sourcing issues, not only your edits to BLPs. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 00:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)|1=I'm very sorry for breaking the fourth wall multiple times, and this is my last straw here that I won't be adding BLPs or other unsourced information from important events ever again. Go ahead and continue my block if you want and I'll be happy about it. But for unblocking me, I will still quit and not edit as much. Previously, I exactly wanted to get permanently banned from Wikipedia but I decided to move on. But now, I am very close for quitting Wikipedia especially in a younger account age. I don't care if I am new for not. Just go ahead and continue my block or go ahead and permanently ban me if you wish.}} [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ImDeadAsADoornail&diff=1135812662User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail2023-01-27T00:47:21Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* January 2023 continued */ Reply</p>
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== BLP at Idaho killings talk ==<br />
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Hey, IDAAD, I'm going to ask you to stop adding any details about whether or not the suspect has family that could be identified. We don't care, and these people deserve privacy. Please just stop even discussing it at the talk page. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 01:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, I know everyone wants to make this fair-and-square, but I decided to give up on editing. You can terminate me if you want, I don't care at all. I tried to bring more information but I went 100% too far. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::IDAAD, rather than giving up, be open to learning. <br />
::You're very new here, and WP has a very steep learning curve, and you're editing at a fast-moving article where there are multiple especially tricky bits of policy to understand.<br />
::Generally it's best for new editors to edit somewhere that isn't a developing story with BLP or other tricky policy. But it's fine if you want to continue to edit there, you just will have to be open to people pointing out fairly often where you're going wrong, because in such a case a new editor usually will go wrong in several ways. Because the article is a developing story, there are a lot of other editors there, and they're busy doing things like preventing vandalism and BLP violations, which means they may not have time to be as patient with a newer editor who is learning (as they would if you were editing at, say, [[Double Dragon II (Game Boy)]]). <br />
::When someone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something, don't be discouraged. Just go learn why. In the case of trying to track down family members, the policy at [[WP:BLP]] and pages linked from there. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just terminate me from Wikipedia, I don't care. I suck at investigating. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::You aren't ''supposed'' to be investigating. We aren't investigative journalists. We report what reliable sources are saying about a subject. There's a huge difference. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just look, I found Kohberger's date of birth of November 21, 1994, in a CBS News article involving Kohberger. Fox News reported on where he went to High School in Brodheadsville (yes, Kohberger lived in the Lehigh Valley for the longest time) and even talked about Kohberger on how shy he was which was said by a student at the school. His mother, Maryann, also made national headlines involving her poem she made about Uvalde to one of her two sisters Melissa who was a mental health therapist in [[Jersey City, New Jersey]]. I saw it from various pages, not just the New York Post. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::That's trivia. We aren't writing a bio of the guy. The article is not about him, it's about the incident. If you've read the posts at the talk page you've seen us discussing whether even including ''his name'' is necessary at this point. And we'd certainly never dream of including the name of his mother unless it turned out she was an accomplice. Never, not in a million years do we include that. That's one of the tricky bits of policy I was talking about above. You are welcome to stay here and keep working, and I'm not going to "terminate you from Wikipedia", but you are going to have to learn our policy. <br />
::::For now, unless you find it in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, or the Idaho Statesman, you shouldn't be adding it to that article. For now you also should not be adding a single word to that article without also ''adding the source'' where you found it. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::I get it now. I saved the information from a Google Document which is better than here on wiki. So once the situation gets all cleaned up, our team will discuss about extra details but it won't happen now but later in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== [[WP:BLOATED]] ==<br />
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Please stop trying to add these minor excess details about neighboring towns (e.g. "in the neighboring town of [[Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania|Brodheadsville]]", " in [[Center Valley, Pennsylvania|Center Valley]] outside [[Allentown, Pennsylvania|Allentown]]"). Most readers don't know or care about these small neighboring towns and the details hold no significance to the case nor suspect themselves. It's [[WP:BLOATED|bloating]] up the section with trivial, minor details. Thanks. [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 16:39, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:I will fix it for you. I am sorry. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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You have shown interest in '''articles about [[WP:Biographies of living persons|living or recently deceased people]], and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles.''' Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|discretionary sanctions]] is in effect. Any administrator may impose [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Sanctions|sanctions]] on editors who do not strictly follow [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies]], or the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Page restrictions|page-specific restrictions]], when making edits related to the topic.<br />
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}}<!-- Derived from Template:Ds/alert --><nowiki> ~~~~</nowiki> [[User:NewsAndEventsGuy|NewsAndEventsGuy]] ([[User talk:NewsAndEventsGuy|talk]]) 19:20, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:NewsAndEventsGuy, you are right and I was wrong. Go ahead and terminate my account or something, because I don't care about what I did earlier. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== unsourced content ==<br />
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Where did you find [[Special:Diff/1130617888|this information about his birth date and high school]]? I am not seeing it in the source you added, even the crap NY Post source? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Valereee]], it seems like the user is ignoring their talk page messages after you had notified them that they had talk page messages [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1130813423&diff=1130816289&diffmode=source]. The user is adding back all of the reverted content [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130898923&oldid=1130844977][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130902700&oldid=1130899465] (and is even naming the suspect's mother using unreliable sources). It seems like a [[WP:IDHT]] issue; could something be done about this? Thank you, [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 15:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I found his birth date on CBS News's article, and Fox News for the high school as well. Read here: https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murder-suspect-kohberger-pennsylvania-classmates-say-he-was-bright-awkward-bullied-school https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bryan-kohberger-arrested-suspect-idaho-murders/ [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Any time you see an article entitled something like "What do we know about (Suspect Y)", you should remind yourself ''what the article we're writing is about.'' This article is about the incident. It is not a biography of the suspect. <br />
::News media try to track down every detail they can find about a suspect because they know the public will give them clicks for it. Wikipedia does not care about clicks. We care about including relevant information that helps the reader understand the article subject. <br />
::In this case the fact his mother wrote poetry and her name and his birth date and where he went to high school ''does not help the reader understand the incident that is the subject of this article.'' Frankly we could call him "John Doe, 28, a PhD student in criminology who was arrested in Pennsylvania after driving the white Elantra there from Idaho" and that would basically tell the reader everything we know that would contribute to their understanding of the incident. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::I get it now, but let's leave it for now. We will discuss on adding more information involving him including his DOB and a bit of other life in the Lehigh Valley but not now. Definitely in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 16:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::Probably won't happen in the future either. This article is never going to be about the suspect. The only details of his life we'll likely ever include are ones the prosecution brings up in court as evidence against him. Even if there's a murder conviction, unless it turns out he's suspected of previous murders, it's unlikely we'd ever need a bio for him. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::Well judging by other results and after reading about Kohberger's traffic stop violations near two unnamed towns in Indiana, it is 100% possible that we probably need a Wiki page about Kohberger himself; but we need to wait until more information gets through. As I said involving other incidents, suspects like Kohberger had a backstory behind it. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::Are you talking about the stops for following too closely? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 00:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Yes. The Kohbergers were pulled over twice on their trip back to the Poconos. First for Speeding and the other for Tailgating, both in Indiana (probably on the same Interstate). If you look through the latest from Law&Crime, dashcam shows the one Indiana State Police trooper pulling over the same Hyundai Elantra Bryan and his 67-year-old father Michael Jr. was in. He was heading back to his family's house in Chestnuthill Township when both traffic violations occur. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 01:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Traffic stops don't make someone notable. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 17:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I know that's not notable, but that's weeks before arrest. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 18:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::We typically do not create a bio on someone who is only famous for being arrested or convicted of a crime, per [[WP:CRIMINAL]]. A couple of traffic tickets a couple of weeks before would not change that. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 18:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::I get it now. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Disambiguation ==<br />
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Hello. At [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] I feel that the title should be trimmed to {{em|Half Moon Bay shootings}} as HMB only has a population of 10,000 and has a very low crime rate. We are supposed to use succinct article titles. Are you up to {{em|Moving}} it? Cheers! <code>&#123;&#123;u&#124;[[User:WikiWikiWayne|WikiWikiWayne]]&#125;&#125;&nbsp;{[[User talk: WikiWikiWayne|Talk]]}</code> 07:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 ==<br />
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[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add content, as you did at [[:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please stop adding unsourced trivia. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. ''Again, please stop adding unsourced trivia to articles about current events. We really do not need to add every detail we can possibly dig up into articles. We add content ''that helps the reader understand the subject''. There is no universe in which knowing the maroon SUV driven by the [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] suspect was a third-generation Lexus RX350 contributes to a reader's understanding of that subject, and it's apparently your own original research which has identified the make/model.''<!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|unsourced or poorly sourced]] content, as you did at [[:Lakeside, California]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. <!-- Template:uw-unsourced3 --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 11:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]]. ''The edit summary [[Special:Diff/1135661343| here]] is original research. You've been repeatedly warned about inserting [[WP:original research]] into articles. You are showing a complete inability or unwillingness to try to understand what Wikipedia is. I am becoming increasingly concerned, in particular because you seem to want to work at recent mass casualty events, which means BLP policy is always in play, and you seem to be intent upon adding trivial detail, using original research to find those details, and willing to violate BLP policy to include those details.''<!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 13:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:You caught me. I'll never vandalize Wikipedia ever again... Read my message in the continue section... [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Control copyright icon.svg|30px|link=|alt=Control copyright icon]] Hello ImDeadAsADoornail! Your additions to [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]] have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the [[public domain]] or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a [[WP:COMPLIC|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. (''To request such a release, see [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission]]''.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid [[copyright]] and [[plagiarism]] issues.<br />
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*You can only copy/translate a ''small'' amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double [[quotation mark]]s (") and cite the source using an [[Wikipedia:Inline citation|inline citation]]. You can read about this at [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] in the sections on "text". See also [[Help:Referencing for beginners]], for how to cite sources here.{{#ifeq: | 1 |</strong>}}<br />
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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-copyright-new --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 continued ==<br />
<div class="user-block" style="padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px">[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been '''[[WP:Partial blocks|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing certain [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespaces]] ((Article)) for [[WP:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. --><code><nowiki>{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}</nowiki></code>. &nbsp;[[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-pblock --><br />
IDAAD, [[Special:Diff/1135779096|this]] is the last straw for me. I am blocking from article space. You may continue to suggest edits on talk pages, but for now you should not be adding content to articles. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, it's my fault on what I did throughout this month. And I just wanted to apologize for what I did so far. I know you are not going to except this plea, but I am very sorry. Because I know you are very angry at me for what I just did. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:47, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Thank you so much for blocking me. I deserve to be blocked anyway and this could be my last straw on quitting Wikipedia. Although I am pretty new here, but I just quit.<br />
:{{unblock reviewed|decline=In order to be unblocked you'll have to demonstrate that you understand the sourcing requirements, especially for BLPs. Most of your edits have shown sourcing issues, not only your edits to BLPs. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 00:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)|1=I'm very sorry for breaking the fourth wall multiple times, and this is my last straw here that I won't be adding BLPs or other unsourced information from important events ever again. Go ahead and continue my block if you want and I'll be happy about it. But for unblocking me, I will still quit and not edit as much. Previously, I exactly wanted to get permanently banned from Wikipedia but I decided to move on. But now, I am very close for quitting Wikipedia especially in a younger account age. I don't care if I am new for not. Just go ahead and continue my block or go ahead and permanently ban me if you wish.}} [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ImDeadAsADoornail&diff=1135812023User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail2023-01-27T00:42:52Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Wikipedia and copyright */ Reply</p>
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== BLP at Idaho killings talk ==<br />
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Hey, IDAAD, I'm going to ask you to stop adding any details about whether or not the suspect has family that could be identified. We don't care, and these people deserve privacy. Please just stop even discussing it at the talk page. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 01:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, I know everyone wants to make this fair-and-square, but I decided to give up on editing. You can terminate me if you want, I don't care at all. I tried to bring more information but I went 100% too far. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::IDAAD, rather than giving up, be open to learning. <br />
::You're very new here, and WP has a very steep learning curve, and you're editing at a fast-moving article where there are multiple especially tricky bits of policy to understand.<br />
::Generally it's best for new editors to edit somewhere that isn't a developing story with BLP or other tricky policy. But it's fine if you want to continue to edit there, you just will have to be open to people pointing out fairly often where you're going wrong, because in such a case a new editor usually will go wrong in several ways. Because the article is a developing story, there are a lot of other editors there, and they're busy doing things like preventing vandalism and BLP violations, which means they may not have time to be as patient with a newer editor who is learning (as they would if you were editing at, say, [[Double Dragon II (Game Boy)]]). <br />
::When someone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something, don't be discouraged. Just go learn why. In the case of trying to track down family members, the policy at [[WP:BLP]] and pages linked from there. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just terminate me from Wikipedia, I don't care. I suck at investigating. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::You aren't ''supposed'' to be investigating. We aren't investigative journalists. We report what reliable sources are saying about a subject. There's a huge difference. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just look, I found Kohberger's date of birth of November 21, 1994, in a CBS News article involving Kohberger. Fox News reported on where he went to High School in Brodheadsville (yes, Kohberger lived in the Lehigh Valley for the longest time) and even talked about Kohberger on how shy he was which was said by a student at the school. His mother, Maryann, also made national headlines involving her poem she made about Uvalde to one of her two sisters Melissa who was a mental health therapist in [[Jersey City, New Jersey]]. I saw it from various pages, not just the New York Post. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::That's trivia. We aren't writing a bio of the guy. The article is not about him, it's about the incident. If you've read the posts at the talk page you've seen us discussing whether even including ''his name'' is necessary at this point. And we'd certainly never dream of including the name of his mother unless it turned out she was an accomplice. Never, not in a million years do we include that. That's one of the tricky bits of policy I was talking about above. You are welcome to stay here and keep working, and I'm not going to "terminate you from Wikipedia", but you are going to have to learn our policy. <br />
::::For now, unless you find it in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, or the Idaho Statesman, you shouldn't be adding it to that article. For now you also should not be adding a single word to that article without also ''adding the source'' where you found it. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::I get it now. I saved the information from a Google Document which is better than here on wiki. So once the situation gets all cleaned up, our team will discuss about extra details but it won't happen now but later in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== [[WP:BLOATED]] ==<br />
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Please stop trying to add these minor excess details about neighboring towns (e.g. "in the neighboring town of [[Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania|Brodheadsville]]", " in [[Center Valley, Pennsylvania|Center Valley]] outside [[Allentown, Pennsylvania|Allentown]]"). Most readers don't know or care about these small neighboring towns and the details hold no significance to the case nor suspect themselves. It's [[WP:BLOATED|bloating]] up the section with trivial, minor details. Thanks. [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 16:39, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:I will fix it for you. I am sorry. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== DS Alert BLP ==<br />
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}}<!-- Derived from Template:Ds/alert --><nowiki> ~~~~</nowiki> [[User:NewsAndEventsGuy|NewsAndEventsGuy]] ([[User talk:NewsAndEventsGuy|talk]]) 19:20, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:NewsAndEventsGuy, you are right and I was wrong. Go ahead and terminate my account or something, because I don't care about what I did earlier. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== unsourced content ==<br />
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Where did you find [[Special:Diff/1130617888|this information about his birth date and high school]]? I am not seeing it in the source you added, even the crap NY Post source? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Valereee]], it seems like the user is ignoring their talk page messages after you had notified them that they had talk page messages [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1130813423&diff=1130816289&diffmode=source]. The user is adding back all of the reverted content [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130898923&oldid=1130844977][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130902700&oldid=1130899465] (and is even naming the suspect's mother using unreliable sources). It seems like a [[WP:IDHT]] issue; could something be done about this? Thank you, [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 15:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I found his birth date on CBS News's article, and Fox News for the high school as well. Read here: https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murder-suspect-kohberger-pennsylvania-classmates-say-he-was-bright-awkward-bullied-school https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bryan-kohberger-arrested-suspect-idaho-murders/ [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Any time you see an article entitled something like "What do we know about (Suspect Y)", you should remind yourself ''what the article we're writing is about.'' This article is about the incident. It is not a biography of the suspect. <br />
::News media try to track down every detail they can find about a suspect because they know the public will give them clicks for it. Wikipedia does not care about clicks. We care about including relevant information that helps the reader understand the article subject. <br />
::In this case the fact his mother wrote poetry and her name and his birth date and where he went to high school ''does not help the reader understand the incident that is the subject of this article.'' Frankly we could call him "John Doe, 28, a PhD student in criminology who was arrested in Pennsylvania after driving the white Elantra there from Idaho" and that would basically tell the reader everything we know that would contribute to their understanding of the incident. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::I get it now, but let's leave it for now. We will discuss on adding more information involving him including his DOB and a bit of other life in the Lehigh Valley but not now. Definitely in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 16:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::Probably won't happen in the future either. This article is never going to be about the suspect. The only details of his life we'll likely ever include are ones the prosecution brings up in court as evidence against him. Even if there's a murder conviction, unless it turns out he's suspected of previous murders, it's unlikely we'd ever need a bio for him. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::Well judging by other results and after reading about Kohberger's traffic stop violations near two unnamed towns in Indiana, it is 100% possible that we probably need a Wiki page about Kohberger himself; but we need to wait until more information gets through. As I said involving other incidents, suspects like Kohberger had a backstory behind it. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::Are you talking about the stops for following too closely? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 00:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Yes. The Kohbergers were pulled over twice on their trip back to the Poconos. First for Speeding and the other for Tailgating, both in Indiana (probably on the same Interstate). If you look through the latest from Law&Crime, dashcam shows the one Indiana State Police trooper pulling over the same Hyundai Elantra Bryan and his 67-year-old father Michael Jr. was in. He was heading back to his family's house in Chestnuthill Township when both traffic violations occur. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 01:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Traffic stops don't make someone notable. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 17:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I know that's not notable, but that's weeks before arrest. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 18:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::We typically do not create a bio on someone who is only famous for being arrested or convicted of a crime, per [[WP:CRIMINAL]]. A couple of traffic tickets a couple of weeks before would not change that. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 18:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::I get it now. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Disambiguation ==<br />
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Hello. At [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] I feel that the title should be trimmed to {{em|Half Moon Bay shootings}} as HMB only has a population of 10,000 and has a very low crime rate. We are supposed to use succinct article titles. Are you up to {{em|Moving}} it? Cheers! <code>&#123;&#123;u&#124;[[User:WikiWikiWayne|WikiWikiWayne]]&#125;&#125;&nbsp;{[[User talk: WikiWikiWayne|Talk]]}</code> 07:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 ==<br />
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[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add content, as you did at [[:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please stop adding unsourced trivia. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. ''Again, please stop adding unsourced trivia to articles about current events. We really do not need to add every detail we can possibly dig up into articles. We add content ''that helps the reader understand the subject''. There is no universe in which knowing the maroon SUV driven by the [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] suspect was a third-generation Lexus RX350 contributes to a reader's understanding of that subject, and it's apparently your own original research which has identified the make/model.''<!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|unsourced or poorly sourced]] content, as you did at [[:Lakeside, California]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. <!-- Template:uw-unsourced3 --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 11:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]]. ''The edit summary [[Special:Diff/1135661343| here]] is original research. You've been repeatedly warned about inserting [[WP:original research]] into articles. You are showing a complete inability or unwillingness to try to understand what Wikipedia is. I am becoming increasingly concerned, in particular because you seem to want to work at recent mass casualty events, which means BLP policy is always in play, and you seem to be intent upon adding trivial detail, using original research to find those details, and willing to violate BLP policy to include those details.''<!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 13:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:You caught me. I'll never vandalize Wikipedia ever again... Read my message in the continue section... [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Wikipedia and copyright ==<br />
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[[File:Control copyright icon.svg|30px|link=|alt=Control copyright icon]] Hello ImDeadAsADoornail! Your additions to [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]] have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the [[public domain]] or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a [[WP:COMPLIC|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. (''To request such a release, see [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission]]''.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid [[copyright]] and [[plagiarism]] issues.<br />
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*You can only copy/translate a ''small'' amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double [[quotation mark]]s (") and cite the source using an [[Wikipedia:Inline citation|inline citation]]. You can read about this at [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] in the sections on "text". See also [[Help:Referencing for beginners]], for how to cite sources here.{{#ifeq: | 1 |</strong>}}<br />
*Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information ''in your own words and structure'', in proper [[paraphrase]]. Following the source's words too closely can create [[derivative work|copyright problems]], so it is not permitted here; see [[Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing]]. Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] the information and to demonstrate that the content is not [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]].{{#ifeq: | 2 |</strong>}}<br />
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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-copyright-new --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Okay. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 continued ==<br />
<div class="user-block" style="padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px">[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been '''[[WP:Partial blocks|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing certain [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespaces]] ((Article)) for [[WP:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. --><code><nowiki>{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}</nowiki></code>. &nbsp;[[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-pblock --><br />
IDAAD, [[Special:Diff/1135779096|this]] is the last straw for me. I am blocking from article space. You may continue to suggest edits on talk pages, but for now you should not be adding content to articles. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Thank you so much for blocking me. I deserve to be blocked anyway and this could be my last straw on quitting Wikipedia. Although I am pretty new here, but I just quit.<br />
:{{unblock reviewed|decline=In order to be unblocked you'll have to demonstrate that you understand the sourcing requirements, especially for BLPs. Most of your edits have shown sourcing issues, not only your edits to BLPs. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 00:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)|1=I'm very sorry for breaking the fourth wall multiple times, and this is my last straw here that I won't be adding BLPs or other unsourced information from important events ever again. Go ahead and continue my block if you want and I'll be happy about it. But for unblocking me, I will still quit and not edit as much. Previously, I exactly wanted to get permanently banned from Wikipedia but I decided to move on. But now, I am very close for quitting Wikipedia especially in a younger account age. I don't care if I am new for not. Just go ahead and continue my block or go ahead and permanently ban me if you wish.}} [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ImDeadAsADoornail&diff=1135811329User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail2023-01-27T00:37:29Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* January 2023 */ Reply</p>
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==Disambiguation link notification for November 30==<br />
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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[List of explosions]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Caernarvon Township, Pennsylvania]]<!-- ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/List_of_explosions check to confirm]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/List_of_explosions?client=notify fix with Dab solver])-->. Such links are [[WP:INTDABLINK|usually incorrect]], since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. <small>(Read the [[User:DPL bot/Dablink notification FAQ|FAQ]]{{*}} Join us at the [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links|DPL WikiProject]].)</small><br />
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== BLP at Idaho killings talk ==<br />
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Hey, IDAAD, I'm going to ask you to stop adding any details about whether or not the suspect has family that could be identified. We don't care, and these people deserve privacy. Please just stop even discussing it at the talk page. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 01:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, I know everyone wants to make this fair-and-square, but I decided to give up on editing. You can terminate me if you want, I don't care at all. I tried to bring more information but I went 100% too far. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::IDAAD, rather than giving up, be open to learning. <br />
::You're very new here, and WP has a very steep learning curve, and you're editing at a fast-moving article where there are multiple especially tricky bits of policy to understand.<br />
::Generally it's best for new editors to edit somewhere that isn't a developing story with BLP or other tricky policy. But it's fine if you want to continue to edit there, you just will have to be open to people pointing out fairly often where you're going wrong, because in such a case a new editor usually will go wrong in several ways. Because the article is a developing story, there are a lot of other editors there, and they're busy doing things like preventing vandalism and BLP violations, which means they may not have time to be as patient with a newer editor who is learning (as they would if you were editing at, say, [[Double Dragon II (Game Boy)]]). <br />
::When someone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something, don't be discouraged. Just go learn why. In the case of trying to track down family members, the policy at [[WP:BLP]] and pages linked from there. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just terminate me from Wikipedia, I don't care. I suck at investigating. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::You aren't ''supposed'' to be investigating. We aren't investigative journalists. We report what reliable sources are saying about a subject. There's a huge difference. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just look, I found Kohberger's date of birth of November 21, 1994, in a CBS News article involving Kohberger. Fox News reported on where he went to High School in Brodheadsville (yes, Kohberger lived in the Lehigh Valley for the longest time) and even talked about Kohberger on how shy he was which was said by a student at the school. His mother, Maryann, also made national headlines involving her poem she made about Uvalde to one of her two sisters Melissa who was a mental health therapist in [[Jersey City, New Jersey]]. I saw it from various pages, not just the New York Post. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::That's trivia. We aren't writing a bio of the guy. The article is not about him, it's about the incident. If you've read the posts at the talk page you've seen us discussing whether even including ''his name'' is necessary at this point. And we'd certainly never dream of including the name of his mother unless it turned out she was an accomplice. Never, not in a million years do we include that. That's one of the tricky bits of policy I was talking about above. You are welcome to stay here and keep working, and I'm not going to "terminate you from Wikipedia", but you are going to have to learn our policy. <br />
::::For now, unless you find it in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, or the Idaho Statesman, you shouldn't be adding it to that article. For now you also should not be adding a single word to that article without also ''adding the source'' where you found it. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::I get it now. I saved the information from a Google Document which is better than here on wiki. So once the situation gets all cleaned up, our team will discuss about extra details but it won't happen now but later in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== [[WP:BLOATED]] ==<br />
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Please stop trying to add these minor excess details about neighboring towns (e.g. "in the neighboring town of [[Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania|Brodheadsville]]", " in [[Center Valley, Pennsylvania|Center Valley]] outside [[Allentown, Pennsylvania|Allentown]]"). Most readers don't know or care about these small neighboring towns and the details hold no significance to the case nor suspect themselves. It's [[WP:BLOATED|bloating]] up the section with trivial, minor details. Thanks. [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 16:39, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:I will fix it for you. I am sorry. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:NewsAndEventsGuy, you are right and I was wrong. Go ahead and terminate my account or something, because I don't care about what I did earlier. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== unsourced content ==<br />
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Where did you find [[Special:Diff/1130617888|this information about his birth date and high school]]? I am not seeing it in the source you added, even the crap NY Post source? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Valereee]], it seems like the user is ignoring their talk page messages after you had notified them that they had talk page messages [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1130813423&diff=1130816289&diffmode=source]. The user is adding back all of the reverted content [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130898923&oldid=1130844977][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130902700&oldid=1130899465] (and is even naming the suspect's mother using unreliable sources). It seems like a [[WP:IDHT]] issue; could something be done about this? Thank you, [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 15:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I found his birth date on CBS News's article, and Fox News for the high school as well. Read here: https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murder-suspect-kohberger-pennsylvania-classmates-say-he-was-bright-awkward-bullied-school https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bryan-kohberger-arrested-suspect-idaho-murders/ [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Any time you see an article entitled something like "What do we know about (Suspect Y)", you should remind yourself ''what the article we're writing is about.'' This article is about the incident. It is not a biography of the suspect. <br />
::News media try to track down every detail they can find about a suspect because they know the public will give them clicks for it. Wikipedia does not care about clicks. We care about including relevant information that helps the reader understand the article subject. <br />
::In this case the fact his mother wrote poetry and her name and his birth date and where he went to high school ''does not help the reader understand the incident that is the subject of this article.'' Frankly we could call him "John Doe, 28, a PhD student in criminology who was arrested in Pennsylvania after driving the white Elantra there from Idaho" and that would basically tell the reader everything we know that would contribute to their understanding of the incident. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::I get it now, but let's leave it for now. We will discuss on adding more information involving him including his DOB and a bit of other life in the Lehigh Valley but not now. Definitely in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 16:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::Probably won't happen in the future either. This article is never going to be about the suspect. The only details of his life we'll likely ever include are ones the prosecution brings up in court as evidence against him. Even if there's a murder conviction, unless it turns out he's suspected of previous murders, it's unlikely we'd ever need a bio for him. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::Well judging by other results and after reading about Kohberger's traffic stop violations near two unnamed towns in Indiana, it is 100% possible that we probably need a Wiki page about Kohberger himself; but we need to wait until more information gets through. As I said involving other incidents, suspects like Kohberger had a backstory behind it. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::Are you talking about the stops for following too closely? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 00:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Yes. The Kohbergers were pulled over twice on their trip back to the Poconos. First for Speeding and the other for Tailgating, both in Indiana (probably on the same Interstate). If you look through the latest from Law&Crime, dashcam shows the one Indiana State Police trooper pulling over the same Hyundai Elantra Bryan and his 67-year-old father Michael Jr. was in. He was heading back to his family's house in Chestnuthill Township when both traffic violations occur. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 01:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Traffic stops don't make someone notable. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 17:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I know that's not notable, but that's weeks before arrest. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 18:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::We typically do not create a bio on someone who is only famous for being arrested or convicted of a crime, per [[WP:CRIMINAL]]. A couple of traffic tickets a couple of weeks before would not change that. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 18:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::I get it now. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Disambiguation ==<br />
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Hello. At [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] I feel that the title should be trimmed to {{em|Half Moon Bay shootings}} as HMB only has a population of 10,000 and has a very low crime rate. We are supposed to use succinct article titles. Are you up to {{em|Moving}} it? Cheers! <code>&#123;&#123;u&#124;[[User:WikiWikiWayne|WikiWikiWayne]]&#125;&#125;&nbsp;{[[User talk: WikiWikiWayne|Talk]]}</code> 07:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 ==<br />
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[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add content, as you did at [[:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please stop adding unsourced trivia. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. ''Again, please stop adding unsourced trivia to articles about current events. We really do not need to add every detail we can possibly dig up into articles. We add content ''that helps the reader understand the subject''. There is no universe in which knowing the maroon SUV driven by the [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] suspect was a third-generation Lexus RX350 contributes to a reader's understanding of that subject, and it's apparently your own original research which has identified the make/model.''<!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|unsourced or poorly sourced]] content, as you did at [[:Lakeside, California]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. <!-- Template:uw-unsourced3 --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 11:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]]. ''The edit summary [[Special:Diff/1135661343| here]] is original research. You've been repeatedly warned about inserting [[WP:original research]] into articles. You are showing a complete inability or unwillingness to try to understand what Wikipedia is. I am becoming increasingly concerned, in particular because you seem to want to work at recent mass casualty events, which means BLP policy is always in play, and you seem to be intent upon adding trivial detail, using original research to find those details, and willing to violate BLP policy to include those details.''<!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 13:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:You caught me. I'll never vandalize Wikipedia ever again... Read my message in the continue section... [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Wikipedia and copyright ==<br />
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[[File:Control copyright icon.svg|30px|link=|alt=Control copyright icon]] Hello ImDeadAsADoornail! Your additions to [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]] have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the [[public domain]] or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a [[WP:COMPLIC|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. (''To request such a release, see [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission]]''.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid [[copyright]] and [[plagiarism]] issues.<br />
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*You can only copy/translate a ''small'' amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double [[quotation mark]]s (") and cite the source using an [[Wikipedia:Inline citation|inline citation]]. You can read about this at [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] in the sections on "text". See also [[Help:Referencing for beginners]], for how to cite sources here.{{#ifeq: | 1 |</strong>}}<br />
*Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information ''in your own words and structure'', in proper [[paraphrase]]. Following the source's words too closely can create [[derivative work|copyright problems]], so it is not permitted here; see [[Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing]]. Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] the information and to demonstrate that the content is not [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]].{{#ifeq: | 2 |</strong>}}<br />
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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-copyright-new --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 continued ==<br />
<div class="user-block" style="padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px">[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been '''[[WP:Partial blocks|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing certain [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespaces]] ((Article)) for [[WP:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. --><code><nowiki>{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}</nowiki></code>. &nbsp;[[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-pblock --><br />
IDAAD, [[Special:Diff/1135779096|this]] is the last straw for me. I am blocking from article space. You may continue to suggest edits on talk pages, but for now you should not be adding content to articles. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Thank you so much for blocking me. I deserve to be blocked anyway and this could be my last straw on quitting Wikipedia. Although I am pretty new here, but I just quit.<br />
:{{unblock|reason= I'm very sorry for breaking the fourth wall multiple times, and this is my last straw here that I won't be adding BLPs or other unsourced information from important events ever again. Go ahead and continue my block if you want and I'll be happy about it. But for unblocking me, I will still quit and not edit as much. Previously, I exactly wanted to get permanently banned from Wikipedia but I decided to move on. But now, I am very close for quitting Wikipedia especially in a younger account age. I don't care if I am new for not. Just go ahead and continue my block or go ahead and permanently ban me if you wish.}} [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ImDeadAsADoornail&diff=1135810882User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail2023-01-27T00:33:37Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* January 2023 continued */ Reply</p>
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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[List of explosions]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Caernarvon Township, Pennsylvania]]<!-- ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/List_of_explosions check to confirm]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/List_of_explosions?client=notify fix with Dab solver])-->. Such links are [[WP:INTDABLINK|usually incorrect]], since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. <small>(Read the [[User:DPL bot/Dablink notification FAQ|FAQ]]{{*}} Join us at the [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links|DPL WikiProject]].)</small><br />
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== BLP at Idaho killings talk ==<br />
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Hey, IDAAD, I'm going to ask you to stop adding any details about whether or not the suspect has family that could be identified. We don't care, and these people deserve privacy. Please just stop even discussing it at the talk page. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 01:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Valereee, I know everyone wants to make this fair-and-square, but I decided to give up on editing. You can terminate me if you want, I don't care at all. I tried to bring more information but I went 100% too far. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::IDAAD, rather than giving up, be open to learning. <br />
::You're very new here, and WP has a very steep learning curve, and you're editing at a fast-moving article where there are multiple especially tricky bits of policy to understand.<br />
::Generally it's best for new editors to edit somewhere that isn't a developing story with BLP or other tricky policy. But it's fine if you want to continue to edit there, you just will have to be open to people pointing out fairly often where you're going wrong, because in such a case a new editor usually will go wrong in several ways. Because the article is a developing story, there are a lot of other editors there, and they're busy doing things like preventing vandalism and BLP violations, which means they may not have time to be as patient with a newer editor who is learning (as they would if you were editing at, say, [[Double Dragon II (Game Boy)]]). <br />
::When someone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something, don't be discouraged. Just go learn why. In the case of trying to track down family members, the policy at [[WP:BLP]] and pages linked from there. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just terminate me from Wikipedia, I don't care. I suck at investigating. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::You aren't ''supposed'' to be investigating. We aren't investigative journalists. We report what reliable sources are saying about a subject. There's a huge difference. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Just look, I found Kohberger's date of birth of November 21, 1994, in a CBS News article involving Kohberger. Fox News reported on where he went to High School in Brodheadsville (yes, Kohberger lived in the Lehigh Valley for the longest time) and even talked about Kohberger on how shy he was which was said by a student at the school. His mother, Maryann, also made national headlines involving her poem she made about Uvalde to one of her two sisters Melissa who was a mental health therapist in [[Jersey City, New Jersey]]. I saw it from various pages, not just the New York Post. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::That's trivia. We aren't writing a bio of the guy. The article is not about him, it's about the incident. If you've read the posts at the talk page you've seen us discussing whether even including ''his name'' is necessary at this point. And we'd certainly never dream of including the name of his mother unless it turned out she was an accomplice. Never, not in a million years do we include that. That's one of the tricky bits of policy I was talking about above. You are welcome to stay here and keep working, and I'm not going to "terminate you from Wikipedia", but you are going to have to learn our policy. <br />
::::For now, unless you find it in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, or the Idaho Statesman, you shouldn't be adding it to that article. For now you also should not be adding a single word to that article without also ''adding the source'' where you found it. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::I get it now. I saved the information from a Google Document which is better than here on wiki. So once the situation gets all cleaned up, our team will discuss about extra details but it won't happen now but later in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:46, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== [[WP:BLOATED]] ==<br />
<br />
Please stop trying to add these minor excess details about neighboring towns (e.g. "in the neighboring town of [[Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania|Brodheadsville]]", " in [[Center Valley, Pennsylvania|Center Valley]] outside [[Allentown, Pennsylvania|Allentown]]"). Most readers don't know or care about these small neighboring towns and the details hold no significance to the case nor suspect themselves. It's [[WP:BLOATED|bloating]] up the section with trivial, minor details. Thanks. [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 16:39, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:I will fix it for you. I am sorry. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== DS Alert BLP ==<br />
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You have shown interest in '''articles about [[WP:Biographies of living persons|living or recently deceased people]], and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles.''' Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|discretionary sanctions]] is in effect. Any administrator may impose [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Sanctions|sanctions]] on editors who do not strictly follow [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies]], or the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Page restrictions|page-specific restrictions]], when making edits related to the topic.<br />
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To opt out of receiving messages like this one, place {{tlx|Ds/aware}} on your user talk page and specify in the template the topic areas that you would like to opt out of alerts about. For additional information, please see the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Guidance for editors|guidance on discretionary sanctions]] and the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee|Arbitration Committee's]] decision [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons|here]]. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.<br />
}}<!-- Derived from Template:Ds/alert --><nowiki> ~~~~</nowiki> [[User:NewsAndEventsGuy|NewsAndEventsGuy]] ([[User talk:NewsAndEventsGuy|talk]]) 19:20, 31 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:NewsAndEventsGuy, you are right and I was wrong. Go ahead and terminate my account or something, because I don't care about what I did earlier. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:21, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== unsourced content ==<br />
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Where did you find [[Special:Diff/1130617888|this information about his birth date and high school]]? I am not seeing it in the source you added, even the crap NY Post source? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:[[User:Valereee]], it seems like the user is ignoring their talk page messages after you had notified them that they had talk page messages [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1130813423&diff=1130816289&diffmode=source]. The user is adding back all of the reverted content [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130898923&oldid=1130844977][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2022_University_of_Idaho_killings&diff=1130902700&oldid=1130899465] (and is even naming the suspect's mother using unreliable sources). It seems like a [[WP:IDHT]] issue; could something be done about this? Thank you, [[User:Some1|Some1]] ([[User talk:Some1|talk]]) 15:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I found his birth date on CBS News's article, and Fox News for the high school as well. Read here: https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murder-suspect-kohberger-pennsylvania-classmates-say-he-was-bright-awkward-bullied-school https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bryan-kohberger-arrested-suspect-idaho-murders/ [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 15:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Any time you see an article entitled something like "What do we know about (Suspect Y)", you should remind yourself ''what the article we're writing is about.'' This article is about the incident. It is not a biography of the suspect. <br />
::News media try to track down every detail they can find about a suspect because they know the public will give them clicks for it. Wikipedia does not care about clicks. We care about including relevant information that helps the reader understand the article subject. <br />
::In this case the fact his mother wrote poetry and her name and his birth date and where he went to high school ''does not help the reader understand the incident that is the subject of this article.'' Frankly we could call him "John Doe, 28, a PhD student in criminology who was arrested in Pennsylvania after driving the white Elantra there from Idaho" and that would basically tell the reader everything we know that would contribute to their understanding of the incident. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::I get it now, but let's leave it for now. We will discuss on adding more information involving him including his DOB and a bit of other life in the Lehigh Valley but not now. Definitely in the near future. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 16:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::Probably won't happen in the future either. This article is never going to be about the suspect. The only details of his life we'll likely ever include are ones the prosecution brings up in court as evidence against him. Even if there's a murder conviction, unless it turns out he's suspected of previous murders, it's unlikely we'd ever need a bio for him. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::Well judging by other results and after reading about Kohberger's traffic stop violations near two unnamed towns in Indiana, it is 100% possible that we probably need a Wiki page about Kohberger himself; but we need to wait until more information gets through. As I said involving other incidents, suspects like Kohberger had a backstory behind it. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::Are you talking about the stops for following too closely? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 00:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::Yes. The Kohbergers were pulled over twice on their trip back to the Poconos. First for Speeding and the other for Tailgating, both in Indiana (probably on the same Interstate). If you look through the latest from Law&Crime, dashcam shows the one Indiana State Police trooper pulling over the same Hyundai Elantra Bryan and his 67-year-old father Michael Jr. was in. He was heading back to his family's house in Chestnuthill Township when both traffic violations occur. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 01:12, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::Traffic stops don't make someone notable. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 17:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I know that's not notable, but that's weeks before arrest. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 18:02, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::We typically do not create a bio on someone who is only famous for being arrested or convicted of a crime, per [[WP:CRIMINAL]]. A couple of traffic tickets a couple of weeks before would not change that. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 18:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::I get it now. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Disambiguation ==<br />
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Hello. At [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] I feel that the title should be trimmed to {{em|Half Moon Bay shootings}} as HMB only has a population of 10,000 and has a very low crime rate. We are supposed to use succinct article titles. Are you up to {{em|Moving}} it? Cheers! <code>&#123;&#123;u&#124;[[User:WikiWikiWayne|WikiWikiWayne]]&#125;&#125;&nbsp;{[[User talk: WikiWikiWayne|Talk]]}</code> 07:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 ==<br />
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[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add content, as you did at [[:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please stop adding unsourced trivia. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. ''Again, please stop adding unsourced trivia to articles about current events. We really do not need to add every detail we can possibly dig up into articles. We add content ''that helps the reader understand the subject''. There is no universe in which knowing the maroon SUV driven by the [[2023 Half Moon Bay shootings]] suspect was a third-generation Lexus RX350 contributes to a reader's understanding of that subject, and it's apparently your own original research which has identified the make/model.''<!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=Warning icon]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|unsourced or poorly sourced]] content, as you did at [[:Lakeside, California]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. <!-- Template:uw-unsourced3 --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 11:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalize]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]]. ''The edit summary [[Special:Diff/1135661343| here]] is original research. You've been repeatedly warned about inserting [[WP:original research]] into articles. You are showing a complete inability or unwillingness to try to understand what Wikipedia is. I am becoming increasingly concerned, in particular because you seem to want to work at recent mass casualty events, which means BLP policy is always in play, and you seem to be intent upon adding trivial detail, using original research to find those details, and willing to violate BLP policy to include those details.''<!-- Template:uw-vandalism4 --> [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 13:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== Wikipedia and copyright ==<br />
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[[File:Control copyright icon.svg|30px|link=|alt=Control copyright icon]] Hello ImDeadAsADoornail! Your additions to [[:Waukesha Christmas parade attack]] have been removed in whole or in part, as they appear to have added copyrighted content without evidence that the source material is in the [[public domain]] or has been released by its owner or legal agent under a [[WP:COMPLIC|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. (''To request such a release, see [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission]]''.) While we appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from sources to avoid [[copyright]] and [[plagiarism]] issues.<br />
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*You can only copy/translate a ''small'' amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double [[quotation mark]]s (") and cite the source using an [[Wikipedia:Inline citation|inline citation]]. You can read about this at [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] in the sections on "text". See also [[Help:Referencing for beginners]], for how to cite sources here.{{#ifeq: | 1 |</strong>}}<br />
*Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information ''in your own words and structure'', in proper [[paraphrase]]. Following the source's words too closely can create [[derivative work|copyright problems]], so it is not permitted here; see [[Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing]]. Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] the information and to demonstrate that the content is not [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]].{{#ifeq: | 2 |</strong>}}<br />
*We have strict guidelines on the usage of copyrighted images. [[Fair use]] images must meet all ten of the [[Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria|non-free content criteria]] in order to be used in articles, or they will be deleted. To be used on Wikipedia, all other images must be made available under a free and open copyright license that allows commercial and derivative reuse.<br />
*If ''you'' own the copyright to the source you want to copy or are a legally designated agent, you ''may'' be able to license that text so that we can publish it here. Understand, though, that unlike many other sites, where a person can license their content for use there and retain non-free ownership, that is not possible at Wikipedia. Rather, the release of content must be irrevocable, ''to the world'', into either the [[public domain]] (PD) or under a [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Copyright#Can I add something to Wikipedia that I got from somewhere else?|suitably-free and compatible]] copyright license. Please see [[Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials]].<br />
*Also note that Wikipedia articles may not be copied or translated without attribution. If you want to copy or translate from another Wikipedia project or article, you must follow the copyright attribution steps described at [[Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia]]. See also [[Help:Translation#License requirements]].<br />
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It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing. If you have any questions about this, please ask them here on this page, or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-copyright-new --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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== January 2023 continued ==<br />
<div class="user-block" style="padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px">[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been '''[[WP:Partial blocks|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing certain [[Wikipedia:Namespace|namespaces]] ((Article)) for [[WP:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. --><code><nowiki>{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}</nowiki></code>. &nbsp;[[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-pblock --><br />
IDAAD, [[Special:Diff/1135779096|this]] is the last straw for me. I am blocking from article space. You may continue to suggest edits on talk pages, but for now you should not be adding content to articles. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 22:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:Thank you so much for blocking me. I deserve to be blocked anyway and this could be my last straw on quitting Wikipedia. Although I am pretty new here, but I just quit.<br />
:{{unblock|reason= I'm very sorry for breaking the fourth wall multiple times, and this is my last straw here that I won't be adding BLPs or other unsourced information from important events ever again. Go ahead and continue my block if you want and I'll be happy about it. But for unblocking me, I will still quit and not edit as much. Previously, I exactly wanted to get permanently banned from Wikipedia but I decided to move on. But now, I am very close for quitting Wikipedia especially in a younger account age. I don't care if I am new for not. Just go ahead and continue my block or go ahead and permanently ban me if you wish.}} [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail#top|talk]]) 00:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_Deona_Marie_Knajdek&diff=1135779235Killing of Deona Marie Knajdek2023-01-26T20:21:43Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: Correction</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Use mdy dates|date=June 2021}}<br />
{{Short description|Vehicle-ramming attack in Minneapolis in June 2021}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = Killing of Deona Marie Knajdek<br />
| partof = [[2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest]]<br />
| image = File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51245959346) (cropped).jpg<br />
| caption = The secured crime scene of the attack<br />
| location = [[Minneapolis]], [[Minnesota]], United States<br />
| coordinates = {{coord|44|56|53.6701|N|93|17|51.3492|W|region:US-MN_type:event|display=inline,title}}<br />
| date = {{nowrap|June 13, 2021}}<br />
| time = 11:39&nbsp;p.m<br />
| timezone = [[Central Time Zone|CDT]]<br />
| type = [[Vehicle-ramming attack]]<br />
| fatalities = 1<br />
| injuries = 4 (including the driver)<br />
| perpetrators = Nicholas Kraus (driver)<br />
| weapons = [[Jeep Cherokee]]<br />
| convicted = {{plainlist|<br />
*Second-degree Unintentional murder<br />
*Second-degree assault with a deadly weapon}}<br />
| verdict = Pleaded guilty on October 24, 2022<br />
| charges = {{plainlist|<br />
*Second-degree intentional [[murder]]<br />
*Second-degree assault with a deadly weapon}}<br />
| notes = ''State of Minnesota vs. Nicholas David Kraus''<br />
}}<br />
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'''Deona Marie Knajdek''' (also reported as Deona Marie Erickson<ref>{{Cite web |date=2021-06-14 |title=Erickson, Deona Marie (Case No: 2021-4069) |url=https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2021/06/16/file_attachments/1855959/2021-4069%20Erickson,%20Deona%20Marie.pdf |access-date=2022-06-14 |website=[[Hennepin County]] Medical Examiner}}</ref>), a 31-year old American woman, was killed on June 13, 2021, when a man drove a car into a crowd of demonstrators who had gathered as a part of the [[2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest|Uptown Minneapolis unrest]]. That evening, demonstrators protesting the law enforcement [[killing of Winston Boogie Smith]] had blocked the intersection of West [[Lake Street (Minneapolis)|Lake Street]] and Girard Avenue.<ref name=":0">{{Cite news|last1=Sepic|first1=Matt|last2=Nelson|first2=Tim|last3=Collins|first3=Jon|date=June 14, 2021|title=1 dead, 3 hurt after driver plows into protesters in Uptown Minneapolis|work=[[Minnesota Public Radio]]|url=https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/14/one-dead-after-driver-crashes-into-protesters-in-uptown-minneapolis|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614124231/https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/14/one-dead-after-driver-crashes-into-protesters-in-uptown-minneapolis|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":10">{{Cite news|last=|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman dead, 3 others hurt after suspect drives into protesters in Uptown|work=[[KMSP-TV]]|url=https://www.fox9.com/news/woman-dead-after-suspect-drives-into-protesters-in-uptown|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224039/https://www.fox9.com/news/woman-dead-after-suspect-drives-into-protesters-in-uptown|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref> At approximately 11:39{{Nbsp}}p.m.{{Nbsp}}[[Central Time Zone|CDT]], a man in a late-model [[Jeep Cherokee]] drove into the crowd at a high speed, striking a parked vehicle that had been used to block off the intersection to traffic, which then collided with protesters, killing Knajdek and injuring three others.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13">{{Cite news|last=Albeck-Ripka|first=Livia|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman Dies After Driver Hits Crowd in Minneapolis|language=en-US|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/us/minneapolis-protest-car-death.html|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614195821/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/us/minneapolis-protest-car-death.html|archive-date=June 14, 2021|issn=0362-4331}}</ref><ref name=":15">{{Cite web|last1=Chirbas|first1=Kurt|last2=Elbaum|first2=Rachel|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman killed after car drives into protesters in Minneapolis|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-killed-after-car-drives-protesters-minneapolis-n1270639|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224040/https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-killed-after-car-drives-protesters-minneapolis-n1270639|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[NBC News]]|language=en}}</ref> <br />
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The driver, Nicholas Kraus of Saint Paul, Minnesota, was charged with [[Murder|second-degree intentional murder]] and two counts of [[Assault|assault with a deadly weapon]] in relation to the crash, after allegedly telling investigators that he had accelerated towards the crowd in an attempt to clear cars acting as barricades.<ref name=":8">{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 16, 2021|title=Unlicensed driver charged with murder in killing of Uptown protester|url=https://www.startribune.com/murder-charge-unlicensed-driver-intentionally-accellerated-toward-protesters-in-hopes-of-clearing-ba/600068834/|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]}}</ref> Investigators believed that Kraus might have been intoxicated during the incident.<ref name=":8" /><ref name=":9" /> After being charged criminally, Kraus was found mentally competent to stand trial.<ref name=":18">{{Cite web |last=Blume |first=Paul |date=2022-07-07 |title=ANOTHER DELAY: Court records now show NICHOLAS KRAUS trial for murder & assault pushed back to October. Was scheduled to begin next week. KRAUS accused of plowing his SUV into a crowd of #Uptown protesters, killing Deona Marie & injuring several others last year. |url=https://twitter.com/paulblume_fox9/status/1545236417739104258 |website=[[Twitter]]}}</ref> To avoid trial in late 2022, Kraus pleaded guilty to second degree unintentional murder (the second degree intentional murder charged was dropped) and second-degree assault with a dangerous weapon.<ref name=":19">{{Cite news |last=Hyatt |first=Kim |date=2022-10-24 |title=St. Paul man who drove into crowd of Uptown protesters pleads guilty to murder, assault |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/st-paul-man-pleads-guilty-to-murder-of-woman-after-driving-into-crowd-of-uptown-protesters-in-2021/600218609/ |access-date=2022-10-24}}</ref> He admitted to the court that the night he killed Knajdek he was under the influence of illegal narcotics and that he intentionally drove his car into barricades that blocked the street. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison.<ref name=":20">{{Cite news |last=Blume |first=Paul |last2=Melissa Turtinen |date=2022-11-23 |title=Driver who killed Minneapolis protester in 2021 sentenced |work=[[KMSP-TV]] |url=https://www.fox9.com/news/nicholas-kraus-sentencing |access-date=2022-11-23}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Background ==<br />
{{See also|Killing of Winston Boogie Smith|2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest}}<br />
A series of protests and civil unrest in the [[U.S. City|U.S. city]] of [[Minneapolis]] began on June 3, 2021, as a reaction to the police killing of Winston Boogie Smith. Smith, a 32-year-old black American man,<ref name=":14">{{Cite news|last=Bellware|first=Kim|date=June 5, 2021|title=A Black Minneapolis man was shot by a U.S. Marshals task force. Investigators say there's no video evidence.|language=en-US|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/05/minneapolis-winston-boogie-smith-shooting/|url-status=live|access-date=June 7, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210605233945/https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/05/minneapolis-winston-boogie-smith-shooting/|archive-date=June 5, 2021|issn=0190-8286}}</ref> allegedly brandished a gun as law enforcement officers attempted to apprehend him. Police fired several rounds at Smith, killing him. At some point during the incident, Smith discharged a firearm.<ref name=":2323">{{Cite news |last=Wiita |first=Tommy |date=June 4, 2021 |title=Suspect identified in Uptown police shooting; family demands video evidence |work=[[KSTP-TV]] |url=https://kstp.com/news/winston-smith-identified-as-suspect-in-uptown-police-shooting-family-demands-video-evidence/6131374/ |url-status=live |access-date=June 4, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604203253/https://kstp.com/news/winston-smith-identified-as-suspect-in-uptown-police-shooting-family-demands-video-evidence/6131374/ |archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":212">{{Cite news |last= |date=June 4, 2021 |title=UPDATE: 9 arrested in overnight vandalism, looting in Uptown; suspect said to have fired weapon at police |work=[[KSTP-TV]] |url=https://www.kstp.com/news/overnight-vandalism-looting-reported-after-officers-shot-killed-suspect-uptown-parking-ramp-minneapolis/6130847/?cat=1 |url-status=live |access-date=June 4, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604111006/https://kstp.com/news/overnight-vandalism-looting-reported-after-officers-shot-killed-suspect-uptown-parking-ramp-minneapolis/6130847/?cat=1 |archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":2022">{{Cite news|last1=Olson|first1=Rochelle|last2=Jany|first2=Libor|last3=Rao|first3=Maya|date=June 4, 2021|title=BCA: Man shot and killed by police fired from inside vehicle; no footage of incident|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/bca-man-shot-and-killed-by-police-fired-from-inside-vehicle-no-footage-of-incident/600064680/|url-status=live|access-date=June 4, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604180559/https://www.startribune.com/bca-man-shot-and-killed-by-police-fired-from-inside-vehicle-no-footage-of-incident/600064680/|archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last=|date=June 3, 2021|title=BCA: Man fired weapon before he was shot, killed by law enforcement in Uptown|url=https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/uptown-minneapolis-shooting/89-070ac371-5567-4a36-9d18-a7abc7e048a7|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224104/https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/uptown-minneapolis-shooting/89-070ac371-5567-4a36-9d18-a7abc7e048a7|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 4, 2021|website=[[KARE-11]]|language=en-US}}</ref><ref name=":172">{{Cite news |last=Xiong |first=Chao |date=2021-06-16 |title=Gun evidence recovered from Winston Smith shooting scene, circumstances still murky |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/gun-evidence-recovered-from-winston-smith-shooting-scene-circumstances-still-murky/600068976/ |access-date=2021-06-16}}</ref> There was no known video evidence of the encounter, and a passenger in Smith's car and protesters disputed the law enforcement account of events.<ref name=":2022" /><br />
<br />
Civil unrest began in the [[Uptown, Minneapolis|Uptown]] district on June 3 when few details of the incident were known. Two nights of protests followed that included looting and rioting.<ref name=":4">{{Cite news|last=Brown|first=Kyle|date=June 5, 2021|title=27 people arrested after the second night of unrest in Uptown|work=[[KSTP-TV]]|url=https://kstp.com/news/27-people-arrested-after-second-night-of-unrest-in-uptown/6132318/|url-status=live|access-date=June 6, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210606030743/https://kstp.com/news/27-people-arrested-after-second-night-of-unrest-in-uptown/6132318/|archive-date=June 6, 2021}}</ref> Protests were held over subsequent days with demonstrators periodically occupying a street intersection near where Smith was killed.<ref name=":0" /><br />
<br />
== Vehicle-ramming attack ==<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51245959861).jpg|alt=Close up view of the damaged vehicles on East Lake Street in Minneapolis.|thumb|Damaged vehicles, June 13, 2021]]<br />
The evening of June 13, 2021, demonstrators blocked the intersection of West Lake Street and Girard Avenue for an event, with some playing volleyball and [[lawn game]]s.<ref name=":0" /><ref name=":10" /> At approximately 11:39{{Nbsp}}p.m.{{Nbsp}}CDT, Nicholas Kraus, in a [[Jeep Cherokee]], drove into the crowd at a high speed, striking a parked vehicle that had been used to block off the intersection to traffic, which then collided with protesters.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13" /><ref name=":15" /> One protester was killed, and three others suffered injuries that were not life-threatening.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13" /> Demonstrators, who said Kraus was trying to flee the scene after the crash, detained him until police arrived.<ref name=":0" /><ref name=":10" /> Kraus was treated at a hospital and then booked into a Hennepin County jail that night on probable cause of criminal [[vehicular homicide]], driving on a cancelled license, and providing false information to police.<ref name=":7">{{Cite web|date=June 15, 2021|title=Man jailed in fatal crash at Minneapolis rally has past DWIs|url=https://apnews.com/article/george-floyd-minneapolis-death-of-daunte-wright-d8ce0e8cfac2fd550253caf776c5a241|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[AP News]]}}</ref><br />
<br />
=== Victims ===<br />
<br />
==== Deona Marie Knajdek ====<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Deona Marie march and protest June 15, 2021 Minneapolis (51249336358).jpg|alt=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|thumb|Chalk art depiction of Knajdek, June 14, 2021]]<br />
The deceased victim was Deona Marie Knajdek,<ref>{{Cite news |last=HoangLong |first=Samantha |date=2021-10-20 |title=What we know (and don't know) about the killing of Winston Boogie Smith Jr. in Minneapolis |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-the-killing-of-winston-boogie-smith-jr-uptown-minneapolis-police/600084825/ |access-date=2021-10-20}}</ref> a 31-year-old woman from Minneapolis.<ref name=":5" /> Initial news reports identified her as Deona M. Knajdek<ref name=":6">{{Cite news|last1=Walsh|first1=Paul|last2=Reinan|first2=John|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing 31-year-old woman and injuring others|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224041/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":5">{{Cite news|last=Bellware|first=Kim|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman killed when driver plows into crowd protesting U.S. Marshals' shooting of Black man|language=en-US|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/14/driver-kills-protester-minneapolis/|access-date=June 15, 2021|issn=0190-8286|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170142/https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/14/driver-kills-protester-minneapolis/|url-status=live}}</ref> Some reports also identified her as Deona Marie Knajdek Erickson,<ref name=":17">{{Cite news |last=Turtinen |first=Melissa |date=2021-06-21 |title=Charges: Drunk driver accelerated 'to jump barricade' in crash that killed protester |work=[[Bring Me The News]] |url=https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/charges-drunk-motorist-sped-up-to-jump-barricade-in-crash-that-killed-protester |access-date=2021-06-21}}</ref> Deona Erickson,<ref name=":0" /> or Deona Marie.<ref name=":10" /> She used the name Deona Marie on her [[Facebook]] social media profile.<ref name=":6" /><br />
<br />
According to her family, the car that was struck belonged to Knajdek, and she had parked it there as a blockade to protect protesters.<ref name=":6" /><ref>{{Cite web|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver Plows Into Protesters In Uptown; Woman Killed Identified As Deona Knajdek|url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/14/woman-killed-after-driver-plows-into-protesters-in-uptown/|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224040/https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/14/woman-killed-after-driver-plows-into-protesters-in-uptown/|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[WCCO-TV]]|language=en-US}}</ref> Her family described her as an active supporter of [[Black Lives Matter]] and social activists on issues of police brutality and gun violence.<ref name=":12">{{Cite news|last=Hyatt|first=Kim|date=2021-06-21|title=Protester killed in Uptown remembered at funeral as 'one of the greatest superheroes'|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/protester-killed-in-uptown-remembered-at-funeral-as-one-of-the-greatest-superheroes/600070593/|access-date=2021-06-21}}</ref><ref name=":1" /> Knajdek was a program manager for The Cottages Group, a [[home health care]] provider. She had two daughters, who were 11 and 13 at the time of her death.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing one and injuring another|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170113/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/}}</ref> Knajdek had participated in daily protests over the killing of Winston Smith since June 3.<ref name=":12" /><br />
<br />
==== Other victims ====<br />
Three other people were injured in the collision. One protester with non-life-threatening injuries and Knajdek were transported to [[Hennepin County Medical Center]] by ambulance. Two others later sought medical treatment for non-critical injuries related to the crash.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Simon|first=Alexandra|date=June 15, 2021|title=Woman killed, 3 others hurt after driver hits car shielding crowd of protesters in Uptown|url=https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/woman-killed-one-injured-after-car-drives-into-uptown-protest/89-6c91b39b-2db4-482a-9b9d-f252c1d67462|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[KARE-11]]|language=en-US}}</ref><br />
<br />
=== Perpetrator ===<br />
Nicholas David Kraus, a 35-year-old man from neighboring [[Saint Paul, Minnesota]] (born November 29, 1985),<ref>{{Cite news|date=2021-06-13|title=Nicholas-Kraus-Criminal-Complaint_Redacted.pdf|work=[[Hennepin County, Minnesota]]|url=https://unicornriot.ninja/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Nicholas-Kraus-Criminal-Complaint_Redacted.pdf|access-date=2021-06-15}}</ref> was the driver of the vehicle that struck the demonstrators. Kraus had five prior convictions for [[driving under the influence]] spanning 2008–2016, and his license had been canceled in 2013 for safety concerns.<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|last=Weniger|first=Deanna|date=June 16, 2021|title=Police identify St. Paul man who drove into protesters in Minneapolis, killing a 31-year-old woman|url=https://www.twincities.com/2021/06/15/police-identify-man-who-drove-into-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-a-31-year-old-woman/|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170100/https://www.twincities.com/2021/06/15/police-identify-man-who-drove-into-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-a-31-year-old-woman/|archive-date=June 16, 2021|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[St. Paul Pioneer Press]]|language=en-US}}</ref> He also had prior convictions for driving without a valid license, assault, failure to have insurance, and providing a false name to police.<ref name=":8" /><br />
<br />
== Criminal proceedings ==<br />
=== Investigation and charges ===<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51246719354).jpg|alt=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|thumb|Damaged vehicles several hours after the attack, June 14, 2021]]<br />
Kraus allegedly made statements to police in which he repeatedly admitted to operating the vehicle.<ref name=":7" /> When questioned, he reportedly gave "illogical and irrelevant answers", which led police to believe he was intoxicated.<ref name=":7" /><ref name=":8" /> Kraus later allegedly admitted to investigators that he had intentionally accelerated towards the demonstrators in hopes of clearing the barricades that had been placed to protect the protestors.<ref name=":8" /><br />
<br />
According to search warrants filed in court on June 15, 2021, officials believed that footage captured by a [[closed-circuit camera]] appeared to show that the car's brake lights did not activate prior to the crash.<ref name=":11">{{Cite news|last=Sepic|first=Matt|date=June 16, 2021|title=Protesters continue barricading Lake Street to remember 2 killed|work=[[Minnesota Public Radio]]|url=https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/16/protesters-continue-barricading-lake-street-to-remember-two-killed|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170103/https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/16/protesters-continue-barricading-lake-street-to-remember-two-killed|archive-date=June 16, 2021}}</ref> Three hours before the June 13, 2021, vehicle attack, a demonstrator had climbed a pole and spray painted a surveillance camera located at the intersection of West Lake Street and Girard Avenue. Officials believed the camera would have captured "crucial evidence" about crash, and law enforcement sought the public's assistance to identify a suspect who painted over the camera.<ref>{{Cite news|date=2021-06-15|title=Police seek person who spray-painted over city camera they say would have captured fatal crash at Winston Smith protest|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/police-seek-person-who-spray-painted-over-city-camera-they-say-would-have-captured-fatal-crash-at-wi/600068545/|access-date=2021-06-18}}</ref> A witness reported that the car seemed to accelerate as it approached the demonstration.<ref name=":3" /> Minneapolis police said in a statement shortly after the attack that they believed that the driver may have been under the influence of drugs or alcohol,<ref name=":6" /><ref name=":15" /> but [[Field sobriety testing|field sobriety tests]] were not performed due to his injuries.<ref name=":7" /><br />
<br />
On June 16, 2021, Kraus was charged with [[Murder|second-degree intentional murder]] and two counts of [[Assault|assault with a deadly weapon]] in relation to the crash.<ref name=":8" /> Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said in a statement that Kraus had been intoxicated during the attack and that he accelerated his vehicle rather than braking.<ref name=":8" /><ref name=":9">{{Cite news|date=2021-06-17|title=Nicholas Kraus Makes 1st Court Appearance In Uptown Protester's Death, Will Be Examined For Competency|work=[[WCCO-TV]]|url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/17/nicholas-kraus-makes-1st-court-appearance-in-uptown-protesters-death-will-be-examined-for-competency/|access-date=2021-06-18}}</ref> Kraus was held in jail on a $1 million bond. He made his first court appearance on June 17, 2021, in Hennepin County District Court and was ordered by the judge to undergo a psychological evaluation to determine if he was competent to stand trial.<ref name=":9" /><br />
<br />
=== Guilty plea ===<br />
Kraus was found [[Competence (law)|mentally competent]] to stand trial after a court proceeding on September 10, 2021.<ref>{{Cite news|last=Olson|first=Rochelle|date=2021-09-10|title=Uptown driver who killed, injured protesters in June found competent for trial|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/uptown-driver-who-killed-injured-protesters-in-june-found-competent-for-trial/600095780/|access-date=2021-09-10}}</ref> Kraus’ trial was initially scheduled to begin on March 21, 2022,<ref name=":16">{{Cite news |date=2021-10-06 |title=Nicholas Kraus, Accused Of Fatally Plowing Into Uptown Protesters, To Stand Trial In March |work=[[WCCO-TV]] |url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/10/06/nicholas-kraus-accused-of-fatally-plowing-into-uptown-protesters-to-stand-trial-in-march/ |access-date=2021-10-06}}</ref> but it was delayed to July,<ref>{{Cite web |last=Unicorn Riot |date=2022-03-21 |title=Nicholas Kraus' trial for his car attack on a #WinstonSmith protest that killed Deona Marie last summer has been delayed until July 11th. He remains in custody in the Hennepin County Jail. |url=https://twitter.com/ur_ninja/status/1507534790446223366 |access-date=2022-04-05 |website=Twitter |language=en}}</ref> and then delayed again to October of that same year.<ref name=":18" /> Just as the trial was about to commence, Kraus pleaded guilty in Hennepin County District Court on October 24, 2022. The charge of intentional second-degree murder charge was amended to unintentional second-degree murder, a lesser charge. Kraus also pleaded guilty to second-degree assault with a dangerous weapon for injuring another protester with his car. A second assault charge for another injured protester was dropped.<ref name=":19" /> At his sentencing hearing on November 23, 2022, Kraus was sentenced concurrently to 20 years in prison for the unintentional murder charge and 3.75 years for the assault charge. Kraus admitted to investigators and before the court that he had driven his vehicle at a high rate of speed toward the makeshift barricades on the night of June 13, 2021. His attorney said that he was unaware there was a demonstration and that he did not have a political motive for his actions.<ref name=":20" /> Kraus is currently confined at the [[Minnesota Correctional Facility – St. Cloud]] facility in [[St. Cloud, Minnesota]].<ref>{{Cite news|date=2022-11-30|title=Nicholas Kraus Gets 20 Years for Ramming Protest, currently now in MCP facility in St. Cloud nearly 65 miles away|work=[[Hennepin County, Minnesota]]|url=https://unicornriot.ninja/2022/nicholas-kraus-gets-20-years-for-ramming-protest-killing-deona-marie/|access-date=2023-01-26}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Memorial and funeral ==<br />
<br />
Hundreds of mourners gathered at the site of the attack for a vigil on the evening of June 14, 2021, and demonstrations continued that evening and in the following days.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 15, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing one and injuring another|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170152/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/}}</ref> Knajdek's funeral was held on June 21, 2021, in her hometown of [[Rush City, Minnesota]].<ref name=":12" /><br />
{{Gallery|width=120|height=100<br />
|File:Winston Smith Deona Marie march and protest June 15, 2021 Minneapolis (51248425302).jpg|alt1=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|Memorial for Knajdek, June 15, 2021<br />
|File:06 16 21 Uptown Minneapolis (51291784987).jpg|alt2=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|32nd birthday memorial, June 16, 2021<br />
|File:Deona Knajdek Memorial (51293398225).jpg|alt3=Piled flower at a street intersection|Makeshift memorial, June 30, 2021 <br />
}}<br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
{{div col}}<br />
* [[2020–2021 United States racial unrest]]<br />
* [[2020–2021 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial unrest]]<br />
* [[George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul]]<br />
* [[List of civil unrest in Minneapolis–Saint Paul]]<br />
* [[List of vehicle-ramming incidents during George Floyd protests]]<br />
{{div col end}}<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
== Further reading ==<br />
* Brooks, Jennifer (June 16, 2021). “[https://www.startribune.com/jennifer-brooks-deona-knajdek-fought-so-minneapolis-wouldn-t-look-away-from-its-pain/600068806/ Deona Knajdek fought so Minneapolis wouldn't look away from its pain]”. ''[[Star Tribune]]''. Retrieved June 18, 2021.<br />
* Marcus, Josh (June 25, 2021). "[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/deona-marie-minneapolis-car-attack-b1870259.html Deona Marie and the epidemic of car attacks against racial justice activists]". ''[[The Independent]]''. Retrieved June 25, 2021.<br />
<br />
== External links ==<br />
<br />
* ''State of Minnesota vs. Nicholas David Kraus'', [https://www.mnlegaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Kraus-Complaint-3.pdf criminal complaint]<br />
{{Black Lives Matter}}<br />
{{Riots in the United States (1980–present)}}<br />
{{Vehicle-ramming attacks}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Knajdek, Deona}}<br />
[[Category:2020–2021 United States racial unrest]]<br />
[[Category:2020s in Minneapolis]]<br />
[[Category:2020s road incidents in North America]]<br />
[[Category:2021 in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:2021 road incidents]]<br />
[[Category:Black Lives Matter]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by person in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:June 2021 events in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Road incident deaths in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:Vehicular rampage in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:June 2021 crimes in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_Deona_Marie_Knajdek&diff=1135779096Killing of Deona Marie Knajdek2023-01-26T20:20:50Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: WWGB, various people I talked to a while back say that it is okay to put a suspect or a person's date-of-birth.</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Use mdy dates|date=June 2021}}<br />
{{Short description|Vehicle-ramming attack in Minneapolis in June 2021}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = Killing of Deona Marie Knajdek<br />
| partof = [[2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest]]<br />
| image = File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51245959346) (cropped).jpg<br />
| caption = The secured crime scene of the attack<br />
| location = [[Minneapolis]], [[Minnesota]], United States<br />
| coordinates = {{coord|44|56|53.6701|N|93|17|51.3492|W|region:US-MN_type:event|display=inline,title}}<br />
| date = {{nowrap|June 13, 2021}}<br />
| time = 11:39&nbsp;p.m<br />
| timezone = [[Central Time Zone|CDT]]<br />
| type = [[Vehicle-ramming attack]]<br />
| fatalities = 1<br />
| injuries = 4 (including the driver)<br />
| perpetrators = Nicholas Kraus (driver)<br />
| weapons = [[Jeep Cherokee]]<br />
| convicted = {{plainlist|<br />
*Second-degree Unintentional murder<br />
*Second-degree assault with a deadly weapon}}<br />
| verdict = Pleaded guilty on October 24, 2022<br />
| charges = {{plainlist|<br />
*Second-degree intentional [[murder]]<br />
*Second-degree assault with a deadly weapon}}<br />
| notes = ''State of Minnesota vs. Nicholas David Kraus''<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''Deona Marie Knajdek''' (also reported as Deona Marie Erickson<ref>{{Cite web |date=2021-06-14 |title=Erickson, Deona Marie (Case No: 2021-4069) |url=https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2021/06/16/file_attachments/1855959/2021-4069%20Erickson,%20Deona%20Marie.pdf |access-date=2022-06-14 |website=[[Hennepin County]] Medical Examiner}}</ref>), a 31-year old American woman, was killed on June 13, 2021, when a man drove a car into a crowd of demonstrators who had gathered as a part of the [[2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest|Uptown Minneapolis unrest]]. That evening, demonstrators protesting the law enforcement [[killing of Winston Boogie Smith]] had blocked the intersection of West [[Lake Street (Minneapolis)|Lake Street]] and Girard Avenue.<ref name=":0">{{Cite news|last1=Sepic|first1=Matt|last2=Nelson|first2=Tim|last3=Collins|first3=Jon|date=June 14, 2021|title=1 dead, 3 hurt after driver plows into protesters in Uptown Minneapolis|work=[[Minnesota Public Radio]]|url=https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/14/one-dead-after-driver-crashes-into-protesters-in-uptown-minneapolis|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614124231/https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/14/one-dead-after-driver-crashes-into-protesters-in-uptown-minneapolis|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":10">{{Cite news|last=|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman dead, 3 others hurt after suspect drives into protesters in Uptown|work=[[KMSP-TV]]|url=https://www.fox9.com/news/woman-dead-after-suspect-drives-into-protesters-in-uptown|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224039/https://www.fox9.com/news/woman-dead-after-suspect-drives-into-protesters-in-uptown|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref> At approximately 11:39{{Nbsp}}p.m.{{Nbsp}}[[Central Time Zone|CDT]], a man in a late-model [[Jeep Cherokee]] drove into the crowd at a high speed, striking a parked vehicle that had been used to block off the intersection to traffic, which then collided with protesters, killing Knajdek and injuring three others.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13">{{Cite news|last=Albeck-Ripka|first=Livia|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman Dies After Driver Hits Crowd in Minneapolis|language=en-US|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/us/minneapolis-protest-car-death.html|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614195821/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/us/minneapolis-protest-car-death.html|archive-date=June 14, 2021|issn=0362-4331}}</ref><ref name=":15">{{Cite web|last1=Chirbas|first1=Kurt|last2=Elbaum|first2=Rachel|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman killed after car drives into protesters in Minneapolis|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-killed-after-car-drives-protesters-minneapolis-n1270639|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224040/https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-killed-after-car-drives-protesters-minneapolis-n1270639|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[NBC News]]|language=en}}</ref> <br />
<br />
The driver, Nicholas Kraus of Saint Paul, Minnesota, was charged with [[Murder|second-degree intentional murder]] and two counts of [[Assault|assault with a deadly weapon]] in relation to the crash, after allegedly telling investigators that he had accelerated towards the crowd in an attempt to clear cars acting as barricades.<ref name=":8">{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 16, 2021|title=Unlicensed driver charged with murder in killing of Uptown protester|url=https://www.startribune.com/murder-charge-unlicensed-driver-intentionally-accellerated-toward-protesters-in-hopes-of-clearing-ba/600068834/|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]}}</ref> Investigators believed that Kraus might have been intoxicated during the incident.<ref name=":8" /><ref name=":9" /> After being charged criminally, Kraus was found mentally competent to stand trial.<ref name=":18">{{Cite web |last=Blume |first=Paul |date=2022-07-07 |title=ANOTHER DELAY: Court records now show NICHOLAS KRAUS trial for murder & assault pushed back to October. Was scheduled to begin next week. KRAUS accused of plowing his SUV into a crowd of #Uptown protesters, killing Deona Marie & injuring several others last year. |url=https://twitter.com/paulblume_fox9/status/1545236417739104258 |website=[[Twitter]]}}</ref> To avoid trial in late 2022, Kraus pleaded guilty to second degree unintentional murder (the second degree intentional murder charged was dropped) and second-degree assault with a dangerous weapon.<ref name=":19">{{Cite news |last=Hyatt |first=Kim |date=2022-10-24 |title=St. Paul man who drove into crowd of Uptown protesters pleads guilty to murder, assault |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/st-paul-man-pleads-guilty-to-murder-of-woman-after-driving-into-crowd-of-uptown-protesters-in-2021/600218609/ |access-date=2022-10-24}}</ref> He admitted to the court that the night he killed Knajdek he was under the influence of illegal narcotics and that he intentionally drove his car into barricades that blocked the street. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison.<ref name=":20">{{Cite news |last=Blume |first=Paul |last2=Melissa Turtinen |date=2022-11-23 |title=Driver who killed Minneapolis protester in 2021 sentenced |work=[[KMSP-TV]] |url=https://www.fox9.com/news/nicholas-kraus-sentencing |access-date=2022-11-23}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Background ==<br />
{{See also|Killing of Winston Boogie Smith|2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest}}<br />
A series of protests and civil unrest in the [[U.S. City|U.S. city]] of [[Minneapolis]] began on June 3, 2021, as a reaction to the police killing of Winston Boogie Smith. Smith, a 32-year-old black American man,<ref name=":14">{{Cite news|last=Bellware|first=Kim|date=June 5, 2021|title=A Black Minneapolis man was shot by a U.S. Marshals task force. Investigators say there's no video evidence.|language=en-US|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/05/minneapolis-winston-boogie-smith-shooting/|url-status=live|access-date=June 7, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210605233945/https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/05/minneapolis-winston-boogie-smith-shooting/|archive-date=June 5, 2021|issn=0190-8286}}</ref> allegedly brandished a gun as law enforcement officers attempted to apprehend him. Police fired several rounds at Smith, killing him. At some point during the incident, Smith discharged a firearm.<ref name=":2323">{{Cite news |last=Wiita |first=Tommy |date=June 4, 2021 |title=Suspect identified in Uptown police shooting; family demands video evidence |work=[[KSTP-TV]] |url=https://kstp.com/news/winston-smith-identified-as-suspect-in-uptown-police-shooting-family-demands-video-evidence/6131374/ |url-status=live |access-date=June 4, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604203253/https://kstp.com/news/winston-smith-identified-as-suspect-in-uptown-police-shooting-family-demands-video-evidence/6131374/ |archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":212">{{Cite news |last= |date=June 4, 2021 |title=UPDATE: 9 arrested in overnight vandalism, looting in Uptown; suspect said to have fired weapon at police |work=[[KSTP-TV]] |url=https://www.kstp.com/news/overnight-vandalism-looting-reported-after-officers-shot-killed-suspect-uptown-parking-ramp-minneapolis/6130847/?cat=1 |url-status=live |access-date=June 4, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604111006/https://kstp.com/news/overnight-vandalism-looting-reported-after-officers-shot-killed-suspect-uptown-parking-ramp-minneapolis/6130847/?cat=1 |archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":2022">{{Cite news|last1=Olson|first1=Rochelle|last2=Jany|first2=Libor|last3=Rao|first3=Maya|date=June 4, 2021|title=BCA: Man shot and killed by police fired from inside vehicle; no footage of incident|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/bca-man-shot-and-killed-by-police-fired-from-inside-vehicle-no-footage-of-incident/600064680/|url-status=live|access-date=June 4, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604180559/https://www.startribune.com/bca-man-shot-and-killed-by-police-fired-from-inside-vehicle-no-footage-of-incident/600064680/|archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last=|date=June 3, 2021|title=BCA: Man fired weapon before he was shot, killed by law enforcement in Uptown|url=https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/uptown-minneapolis-shooting/89-070ac371-5567-4a36-9d18-a7abc7e048a7|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224104/https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/uptown-minneapolis-shooting/89-070ac371-5567-4a36-9d18-a7abc7e048a7|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 4, 2021|website=[[KARE-11]]|language=en-US}}</ref><ref name=":172">{{Cite news |last=Xiong |first=Chao |date=2021-06-16 |title=Gun evidence recovered from Winston Smith shooting scene, circumstances still murky |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/gun-evidence-recovered-from-winston-smith-shooting-scene-circumstances-still-murky/600068976/ |access-date=2021-06-16}}</ref> There was no known video evidence of the encounter, and a passenger in Smith's car and protesters disputed the law enforcement account of events.<ref name=":2022" /><br />
<br />
Civil unrest began in the [[Uptown, Minneapolis|Uptown]] district on June 3 when few details of the incident were known. Two nights of protests followed that included looting and rioting.<ref name=":4">{{Cite news|last=Brown|first=Kyle|date=June 5, 2021|title=27 people arrested after the second night of unrest in Uptown|work=[[KSTP-TV]]|url=https://kstp.com/news/27-people-arrested-after-second-night-of-unrest-in-uptown/6132318/|url-status=live|access-date=June 6, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210606030743/https://kstp.com/news/27-people-arrested-after-second-night-of-unrest-in-uptown/6132318/|archive-date=June 6, 2021}}</ref> Protests were held over subsequent days with demonstrators periodically occupying a street intersection near where Smith was killed.<ref name=":0" /><br />
<br />
== Vehicle-ramming attack ==<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51245959861).jpg|alt=Close up view of the damaged vehicles on East Lake Street in Minneapolis.|thumb|Damaged vehicles, June 13, 2021]]<br />
The evening of June 13, 2021, demonstrators blocked the intersection of West Lake Street and Girard Avenue for an event, with some playing volleyball and [[lawn game]]s.<ref name=":0" /><ref name=":10" /> At approximately 11:39{{Nbsp}}p.m.{{Nbsp}}CDT, Nicholas Kraus, in a [[Jeep Cherokee]], drove into the crowd at a high speed, striking a parked vehicle that had been used to block off the intersection to traffic, which then collided with protesters.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13" /><ref name=":15" /> One protester was killed, and three others suffered injuries that were not life-threatening.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13" /> Demonstrators, who said Kraus was trying to flee the scene after the crash, detained him until police arrived.<ref name=":0" /><ref name=":10" /> Kraus was treated at a hospital and then booked into a Hennepin County jail that night on probable cause of criminal [[vehicular homicide]], driving on a cancelled license, and providing false information to police.<ref name=":7">{{Cite web|date=June 15, 2021|title=Man jailed in fatal crash at Minneapolis rally has past DWIs|url=https://apnews.com/article/george-floyd-minneapolis-death-of-daunte-wright-d8ce0e8cfac2fd550253caf776c5a241|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[AP News]]}}</ref><br />
<br />
=== Victims ===<br />
<br />
==== Deona Marie Knajdek ====<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Deona Marie march and protest June 15, 2021 Minneapolis (51249336358).jpg|alt=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|thumb|Chalk art depiction of Knajdek, June 14, 2021]]<br />
The deceased victim was Deona Marie Knajdek,<ref>{{Cite news |last=HoangLong |first=Samantha |date=2021-10-20 |title=What we know (and don't know) about the killing of Winston Boogie Smith Jr. in Minneapolis |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-the-killing-of-winston-boogie-smith-jr-uptown-minneapolis-police/600084825/ |access-date=2021-10-20}}</ref> a 31-year-old woman from Minneapolis.<ref name=":5" /> Initial news reports identified her as Deona M. Knajdek<ref name=":6">{{Cite news|last1=Walsh|first1=Paul|last2=Reinan|first2=John|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing 31-year-old woman and injuring others|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224041/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":5">{{Cite news|last=Bellware|first=Kim|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman killed when driver plows into crowd protesting U.S. Marshals' shooting of Black man|language=en-US|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/14/driver-kills-protester-minneapolis/|access-date=June 15, 2021|issn=0190-8286|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170142/https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/14/driver-kills-protester-minneapolis/|url-status=live}}</ref> Some reports also identified her as Deona Marie Knajdek Erickson,<ref name=":17">{{Cite news |last=Turtinen |first=Melissa |date=2021-06-21 |title=Charges: Drunk driver accelerated 'to jump barricade' in crash that killed protester |work=[[Bring Me The News]] |url=https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/charges-drunk-motorist-sped-up-to-jump-barricade-in-crash-that-killed-protester |access-date=2021-06-21}}</ref> Deona Erickson,<ref name=":0" /> or Deona Marie.<ref name=":10" /> She used the name Deona Marie on her [[Facebook]] social media profile.<ref name=":6" /><br />
<br />
According to her family, the car that was struck belonged to Knajdek, and she had parked it there as a blockade to protect protesters.<ref name=":6" /><ref>{{Cite web|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver Plows Into Protesters In Uptown; Woman Killed Identified As Deona Knajdek|url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/14/woman-killed-after-driver-plows-into-protesters-in-uptown/|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224040/https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/14/woman-killed-after-driver-plows-into-protesters-in-uptown/|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[WCCO-TV]]|language=en-US}}</ref> Her family described her as an active supporter of [[Black Lives Matter]] and social activists on issues of police brutality and gun violence.<ref name=":12">{{Cite news|last=Hyatt|first=Kim|date=2021-06-21|title=Protester killed in Uptown remembered at funeral as 'one of the greatest superheroes'|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/protester-killed-in-uptown-remembered-at-funeral-as-one-of-the-greatest-superheroes/600070593/|access-date=2021-06-21}}</ref><ref name=":1" /> Knajdek was a program manager for The Cottages Group, a [[home health care]] provider. She had two daughters, who were 11 and 13 at the time of her death.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing one and injuring another|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170113/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/}}</ref> Knajdek had participated in daily protests over the killing of Winston Smith since June 3.<ref name=":12" /><br />
<br />
==== Other victims ====<br />
Three other people were injured in the collision. One protester with non-life-threatening injuries and Knajdek were transported to [[Hennepin County Medical Center]] by ambulance. Two others later sought medical treatment for non-critical injuries related to the crash.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Simon|first=Alexandra|date=June 15, 2021|title=Woman killed, 3 others hurt after driver hits car shielding crowd of protesters in Uptown|url=https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/woman-killed-one-injured-after-car-drives-into-uptown-protest/89-6c91b39b-2db4-482a-9b9d-f252c1d67462|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[KARE-11]]|language=en-US}}</ref><br />
<br />
=== Perpetrator ===<br />
Nicholas David Kraus, a 35-year-old man from neighboring [[Saint Paul, Minnesota]] (born November 29, 1985),<ref>{{Cite news|date=2021-06-13|title=Nicholas-Kraus-Criminal-Complaint_Redacted.pdf|work=[[Hennepin County, Minnesota]]|url=https://unicornriot.ninja/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Nicholas-Kraus-Criminal-Complaint_Redacted.pdf|access-date=2021-06-15}}</ref> was the driver of the vehicle that struck the demonstrators. Kraus had five prior convictions for [[driving under the influence]] spanning 2008–2016, and his license had been canceled in 2013 for safety concerns.<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|last=Weniger|first=Deanna|date=June 16, 2021|title=Police identify St. Paul man who drove into protesters in Minneapolis, killing a 31-year-old woman|url=https://www.twincities.com/2021/06/15/police-identify-man-who-drove-into-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-a-31-year-old-woman/|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170100/https://www.twincities.com/2021/06/15/police-identify-man-who-drove-into-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-a-31-year-old-woman/|archive-date=June 16, 2021|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[St. Paul Pioneer Press]]|language=en-US}}</ref> He also had prior convictions for driving without a valid license, assault, failure to have insurance, and providing a false name to police.<ref name=":8" /><br />
<br />
== Criminal proceedings ==<br />
=== Investigation and charges ===<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51246719354).jpg|alt=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|thumb|Damaged vehicles several hours after the attack, June 14, 2021]]<br />
Kraus allegedly made statements to police in which he repeatedly admitted to operating the vehicle.<ref name=":7" /> When questioned, he reportedly gave "illogical and irrelevant answers", which led police to believe he was intoxicated.<ref name=":7" /><ref name=":8" /> Kraus later allegedly admitted to investigators that he had intentionally accelerated towards the demonstrators in hopes of clearing the barricades that had been placed to protect the protestors.<ref name=":8" /><br />
<br />
According to search warrants filed in court on June 15, 2021, officials believed that footage captured by a [[closed-circuit camera]] appeared to show that the car's brake lights did not activate prior to the crash.<ref name=":11">{{Cite news|last=Sepic|first=Matt|date=June 16, 2021|title=Protesters continue barricading Lake Street to remember 2 killed|work=[[Minnesota Public Radio]]|url=https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/16/protesters-continue-barricading-lake-street-to-remember-two-killed|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170103/https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/16/protesters-continue-barricading-lake-street-to-remember-two-killed|archive-date=June 16, 2021}}</ref> Three hours before the June 13, 2021, vehicle attack, a demonstrator had climbed a pole and spray painted a surveillance camera located at the intersection of West Lake Street and Girard Avenue. Officials believed the camera would have captured "crucial evidence" about crash, and law enforcement sought the public's assistance to identify a suspect who painted over the camera.<ref>{{Cite news|date=2021-06-15|title=Police seek person who spray-painted over city camera they say would have captured fatal crash at Winston Smith protest|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/police-seek-person-who-spray-painted-over-city-camera-they-say-would-have-captured-fatal-crash-at-wi/600068545/|access-date=2021-06-18}}</ref> A witness reported that the car seemed to accelerate as it approached the demonstration.<ref name=":3" /> Minneapolis police said in a statement shortly after the attack that they believed that the driver may have been under the influence of drugs or alcohol,<ref name=":6" /><ref name=":15" /> but [[Field sobriety testing|field sobriety tests]] were not performed due to his injuries.<ref name=":7" /><br />
<br />
On June 16, 2021, Kraus was charged with [[Murder|second-degree intentional murder]] and two counts of [[Assault|assault with a deadly weapon]] in relation to the crash.<ref name=":8" /> Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said in a statement that Kraus had been intoxicated during the attack and that he accelerated his vehicle rather than braking.<ref name=":8" /><ref name=":9">{{Cite news|date=2021-06-17|title=Nicholas Kraus Makes 1st Court Appearance In Uptown Protester's Death, Will Be Examined For Competency|work=[[WCCO-TV]]|url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/17/nicholas-kraus-makes-1st-court-appearance-in-uptown-protesters-death-will-be-examined-for-competency/|access-date=2021-06-18}}</ref> Kraus was held in jail on a $1 million bond. He made his first court appearance on June 17, 2021, in Hennepin County District Court and was ordered by the judge to undergo a psychological evaluation to determine if he was competent to stand trial.<ref name=":9" /><br />
<br />
=== Guilty plea ===<br />
Kraus was found [[Competence (law)|mentally competent]] to stand trial after a court proceeding on September 10, 2021.<ref>{{Cite news|last=Olson|first=Rochelle|date=2021-09-10|title=Uptown driver who killed, injured protesters in June found competent for trial|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/uptown-driver-who-killed-injured-protesters-in-june-found-competent-for-trial/600095780/|access-date=2021-09-10}}</ref> Kraus’ trial was initially scheduled to begin on March 21, 2022,<ref name=":16">{{Cite news |date=2021-10-06 |title=Nicholas Kraus, Accused Of Fatally Plowing Into Uptown Protesters, To Stand Trial In March |work=[[WCCO-TV]] |url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/10/06/nicholas-kraus-accused-of-fatally-plowing-into-uptown-protesters-to-stand-trial-in-march/ |access-date=2021-10-06}}</ref> but it was delayed to July,<ref>{{Cite web |last=Unicorn Riot |date=2022-03-21 |title=Nicholas Kraus' trial for his car attack on a #WinstonSmith protest that killed Deona Marie last summer has been delayed until July 11th. He remains in custody in the Hennepin County Jail. |url=https://twitter.com/ur_ninja/status/1507534790446223366 |access-date=2022-04-05 |website=Twitter |language=en}}</ref> and then delayed again to October of that same year.<ref name=":18" /> Just as the trial was about to commence, Kraus pleaded guilty in Hennepin County District Court on October 24, 2022. The charge of intentional second-degree murder charge was amended to unintentional second-degree murder, a lesser charge. Kraus also pleaded guilty to second-degree assault with a dangerous weapon for injuring another protester with his car. A second assault charge for another injured protester was dropped.<ref name=":19" /> At his sentencing hearing on November 23, 2022, Kraus was sentenced concurrently to 20 years in prison for the unintentional murder charge and 3.75 years for the assault charge. Kraus admitted to investigators and before the court that he had driven his vehicle at a high rate of speed toward the makeshift barricades on the night of June 13, 2021. His attorney said that he was unaware there was a demonstration and that he did not have a political motive for his actions.<ref name=":20" /> Kraus is currently confined at the [[Minnesota Correctional Facility – St. Cloud]] facility in [[St. Cloud, Minnesota]].<ref>{{Cite news|date=2022-11-30|title=Nicholas Kraus Gets 20 Years for Ramming Protest, currently now in MCP facility in St. Cloud nearly 65 miles away|work=[[Hennepin County, Minnesota]]|url=https://unicornriot.ninja/2022/nicholas-kraus-gets-20-years-for-ramming-protest-killing-deona-marie/|access-date=2023-01-26}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Memorial and funeral ==<br />
<br />
Hundreds of mourners gathered at the site of the attack for a vigil on the evening of June 14, 2021, and demonstrations continued that evening and in the following days.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 15, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing one and injuring another|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170152/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/}}</ref> Knajdek's funeral was held on June 21, 2021, in her hometown of [[Rush City, Minnesota]].<ref name=":12" /><br />
{{Gallery|width=120|height=100<br />
|File:Winston Smith Deona Marie march and protest June 15, 2021, Minneapolis (51248425302).jpg|alt1=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|Memorial for Knajdek, June 15, 2021<br />
|File:06 16 21 Uptown Minneapolis (51291784987).jpg|alt2=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|32nd birthday memorial, June 16, 2021<br />
|File:Deona Knajdek Memorial (51293398225).jpg|alt3=Piled flower at a street intersection|Makeshift memorial, June 30, 2021 <br />
}}<br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
{{div col}}<br />
* [[2020–2021 United States racial unrest]]<br />
* [[2020–2021 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial unrest]]<br />
* [[George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul]]<br />
* [[List of civil unrest in Minneapolis–Saint Paul]]<br />
* [[List of vehicle-ramming incidents during George Floyd protests]]<br />
{{div col end}}<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
== Further reading ==<br />
* Brooks, Jennifer (June 16, 2021). “[https://www.startribune.com/jennifer-brooks-deona-knajdek-fought-so-minneapolis-wouldn-t-look-away-from-its-pain/600068806/ Deona Knajdek fought so Minneapolis wouldn't look away from its pain]”. ''[[Star Tribune]]''. Retrieved June 18, 2021.<br />
* Marcus, Josh (June 25, 2021). "[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/deona-marie-minneapolis-car-attack-b1870259.html Deona Marie and the epidemic of car attacks against racial justice activists]". ''[[The Independent]]''. Retrieved June 25, 2021.<br />
<br />
== External links ==<br />
<br />
* ''State of Minnesota vs. Nicholas David Kraus'', [https://www.mnlegaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Kraus-Complaint-3.pdf criminal complaint]<br />
{{Black Lives Matter}}<br />
{{Riots in the United States (1980–present)}}<br />
{{Vehicle-ramming attacks}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Knajdek, Deona}}<br />
[[Category:2020–2021 United States racial unrest]]<br />
[[Category:2020s in Minneapolis]]<br />
[[Category:2020s road incidents in North America]]<br />
[[Category:2021 in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:2021 road incidents]]<br />
[[Category:Black Lives Matter]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by person in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:June 2021 events in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Road incident deaths in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:Vehicular rampage in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:June 2021 crimes in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_Tyre_Nichols&diff=1135775649Killing of Tyre Nichols2023-01-26T20:01:19Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Criminal charges */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Short description|2023 death following a traffic stop}}<br />
{{Use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox event<br />
| title = Death of Tyre Nichols<br />
| location = [[Memphis, Tennessee]], U.S.<br />
| coordinates = <br />
| date = January 7, 2023 (traffic stop)<br>January 10, 2023 (death)<br />
| image = <br />
| caption = <br />
| time = <br />
| timezone = <br />
| fatalities = Tyre Nichols<br />
| accused = *Tadarrius Bean<br />
*Demetrius Haley<br />
*Emmitt Martin III<br />
*Desmond Mills Jr.<br />
*Justin Smith<br />
| charges = *[[Murder in United States law|Second-degree murder]]<br />
*[[Aggravated assault]]<br />
*[[Aggravation (law)|Aggravated]] [[kidnapping]] (2 counts)<br />
*[[Official misconduct]] (2 counts)<br />
*[[Civil and political rights|Official oppression]]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''Tyre Nichols''' was an [[African-American]] man who died on January 10, 2023, three days after a traffic stop by officers from the [[Memphis Police Department]]. According to the [[Tennessee Bureau of Investigation]] (TBI), Nichols was originally stopped on January 7 for reckless driving. The TBI stated there was a "confrontation", followed by Nichols running and another confrontation. Nichols complained of having shortness of breath, and an ambulance was called.<ref>{{cite web |title=Man's death after arrest draws protest near police station |url=https://apnews.com/article/tennessee-state-government-memphis-4cfacbc43bfb0d231bf3609c46a16d25 |website=AP News |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 15, 2023}}</ref> The TBI and [[United States Department of Justice]] have both opened investigations into Nichols's death.<ref>{{cite web |title=Statement from United States Attorney Kevin G. Ritz |url=https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdtn/pr/statement-united-states-attorney-kevin-g-ritz |website=Department of Justice |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 18, 2023}}</ref><br />
An autopsy commissioned by Tyre Nichols' family found he suffered "extensive bleeding from severe beating."<ref>{{cite web |title=Preliminary autopsy finds extensive bleeding from beating|url=https://cnn.com/cnn/2023/01/25/us/tyre-nichols-death-preliminary-results-independent-autopsy/index.html |website=CNN|access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 25, 2023}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Death ==<br />
Nichols was pulled over on January 7, 2023 for reckless driving. He was reportedly on his way home and about 80 yards from his home at the time of the stop.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |last=Sainz |first=Adrian |date=2023-01-23 |title=Tyre Nichols' mom: He nearly home when police 'murdered' him |url=https://apnews.com/article/crime-us-news-memphis-law-enforcement-2ee34c06788c350f650f5fb5ce87134a |access-date=2023-01-23 |website=AP NEWS |language=en}}</ref> According to police, there was a confrontation as officers approached Nichols, and after he ran there was another confrontation. Nichols complained of shortness of breath and was hospitalized. He died three days later on January 10. Relatives of Nichols claimed the officers involved were in an unmarked vehicle and that he experienced cardiac arrest and kidney failure because of officers beating him.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Jones |first1=Bria |title='Beyond Emmett Till': Family of man who died after police chase wants justice |url=https://wreg.com/news/local/beyond-emmett-till-family-of-man-who-died-after-police-chase-wants-justice |website=WREG |date=January 13, 2023 |access-date=January 21, 2023}}</ref> A cause of death has not been released.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Carter |first1=Nakylah |title=5 Memphis officers fired over death of Tyre Nichols |url=https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/death-black-man-after-traffic-stop-prompts-federal/story?id=96516880 |website=ABC News |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 20, 2023}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Investigation ==<br />
On January 7, District Attorney Steve Mulroy contacted the TBI to look at allegations regarding excessive "use of force" during the arrest. On January 15, the Memphis Police Department (MPD) announced the officers involved would face "administrative action".<ref>{{cite web |title=Tyre Nichols died after a traffic stop with Memphis Police. A timeline of events |url=https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/crime/2023/01/11/what-we-know-about-the-death-of-tyre-deandre-nichols/69798500007/ |website=Commercial Appeal |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 20, 2023}}</ref> The Department of Justice and [[Federal Bureau of Investigations]] (FBI) are also conducting an investigation.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Smart |first1=Sara |last2=Lynch |first2=Jamiel |title=DOJ and FBI open civil rights investigation into the death of Memphis man who passed away after arrest |url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/18/us/memphis-tennessee-tyre-nichols-death-federal-investigation/index.html |website=CNN |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 18, 2023}}</ref><br />
<br />
On January 20, the MPD announced that the five officers involved, Tadarrius Bean, Demetrius Haley, Emmitt Martin III, Desmond Mills Jr., and Justin Smith would be fired.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Almasy |first1=Steve |last2=Razek |first2=Raja |title=5 Memphis officers fired after death of man who was hospitalized after his arrest |url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/20/us/memphis-tennessee-tyre-nichols-death-friday/index.html |website=CNN |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 20, 2023}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Gertler |first1=Jessica |last2=Rucker |first2=Stuart |title=Five MPD Officers fired after Nichols investigation |url=https://wreg.com/news/investigations/tyre-nichols-and-memphis-police-confrontation-what-we-know/ |website=WREG 3 |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 20, 2023}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=5 Memphis police officers fired in death of Tyre Nichols |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/5-memphis-police-officers-fired-death-tyre-nichols-traffic-stop/ |website=CBS News |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 20, 2023}}</ref> Three days later, two Memphis Fire EMTs who were in the ambulance were relieved of duty.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Douglas |first1=Stephanie |last2=Bolden |first2=Bria |title=Two Memphis Fire employees relieved of duty in connection to Tyre Nichols' death, internal investigation ongoing |url=https://www.actionnews5.com/2023/01/24/two-memphis-fire-employees-relieved-duty-connection-tyre-nichols-death-internal-investigation-ongoing/ |website=NBC 5 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |date=January 24, 2023}}</ref><br />
<br />
Memphis Mayor [[Jim Strickland (politician)|Jim Strickland]] said body camera footage of the incident would be released later in January.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Paul |first1=Ashley |title='You are not above the law': Councilman pushes for release of Tyre Nichols arrest video |url=https://wreg.com/news/local/you-are-not-above-the-law-councilman-pushes-for-release-of-tyre-nichols-arrest-video/ |website=WREG |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 19, 2023}}</ref> The body camera footage is to be released to the family on Monday, January 23, and then to the public once the findings of the report are finished.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Andone |first1=Dakin |last2=Valencia |first2=Nick |title=Tyre Nichols' family to watch video Monday of his arrest by Memphis police just days before his death |url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/23/us/tyre-nichols-family-arrest-video |website=CNN |access-date=23 January 2023 |date=January 23, 2023}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Sainz |first1=Adrian |title=Memphis on edge ahead of violent arrest video's release |url=https://apnews.com/article/crime-us-news-memphis-law-enforcement-2ee34c06788c350f650f5fb5ce87134a |website=AP News |access-date=23 January 2023 |date=January 23, 2023}}</ref> According to Nichols family attorneys who watched the footage before the family, Nichols was a "human piñata" for the officers and reminded them of the [[Rodney King|footage of Rodney King]].<ref name=":0" /><br />
<br />
Tyre's father stated that “Our son ran because he was scared for his life,” and also “He did not run because he was trying to get rid of no drugs, no guns, no any of that. He ran because he was scared for his life. And when you see the video, you will see why he was scared for his life.”<ref>{{cite web | url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/23/us/tyre-nichols-family-arrest-video | title=Tyre Nichols' family attorney says video shows police beating Nichols like a 'human pinata' | website=[[CNN]] | date=January 23, 2023 }}</ref><br />
<br />
=== Criminal charges ===<br />
On January 24, the five officers that were involved: Demetrius Haley (born January 4, 1993), Desmond Mills, Jr. (born March 16, 1990), Emmitt Martin III (born June 11, 1992), Justin Smith (born October 16, 1994), and Tadarrius Bean (born September 18, 1998), were arrested and charged with [[Murder|second-degree murder]] and other offenses including two counts of [[Malfeasance in office|official misconduct]], one count of [[Assault|aggravated assault]] and two counts of aggravated kidnapping.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Clifford |first=Tyler |date=2023-01-26 |title=Former Memphis officers arrested on murder charges in the death of Tyre Nichols |language=en |work=Reuters |url=https://www.reuters.com/legal/former-memphis-police-officer-indicted-tyre-nichols-death-cnn-reports-2023-01-26/ |access-date=2023-01-26}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.actionnews5.com/2023/01/26/5-former-officers-custody-charged-with-murder-connection-death-tyre-nichols/ |title=5 former officers in custody, charged with murder in connection to death of Tyre Nichols |last=Gallant |first=Jacob |publisher=Action News 5 |date=26 January 2023 |accessdate=26 January 2023}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Aftermath ==<br />
Nichols's family hired attorney [[Benjamin Crump|Ben Crump]].<ref>{{cite web |last1=Rucker |first1=Stuart |title=Ben Crump, Nichols family to address public on Monday |url=https://www.wavy.com/news/ben-crump-nichols-family-to-address-public-on-monday/ |website=WAVY |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 20, 2023}}</ref> Protests were held in response to Nichols's death.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Reals |first1=Steffen |title=Family, friends and Memphians scream 'No Justice, No peace' as protests continue after the loss of Tyre Nichols |url=https://www.localmemphis.com/amp/article/news/crime/protests-continue-for-justice-behind-the-death-of-tyre-nichols/522-f009b05d-b25d-4859-9b23-7a726c86cfb7 |website=ABC 24 |access-date=January 21, 2023 |date=January 16, 2023}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[Lists of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States]]<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{Portal bar|United States|Law}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Nichols, Tyre}}<br />
[[Category:2023 deaths]]<br />
[[Category:2023 in Tennessee]]<br />
[[Category:2023 controversies in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 events in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Law enforcement controversies in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Waukesha_Christmas_parade_attack&diff=1135661343Waukesha Christmas parade attack2023-01-26T01:30:10Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: According to the video if you look where Brooks' license plate is, there was a plate frame reading "Lupient, Since 1957", meaning that the vehicle was originally purchased in Golden Valley, Minnesota.</p>
<hr />
<div></div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Waukesha_Christmas_parade_attack&diff=1135660759Waukesha Christmas parade attack2023-01-26T01:25:41Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: The vehicle was originally purchased in Golden Valley, Minnesota.</p>
<hr />
<div></div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11356137012023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-25T19:48:12Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Suspect */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|Mass shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = File:San Mateo County California Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Half Moon Bay Highlighted 0631708.svg<br />
| image_size =<br />
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| alt =<br />
| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
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| height = 240<br />
| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
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| location = [[Half Moon Bay, California]], U.S.<br />
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| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]], [[workplace violence]], [[spree killing]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
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On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two nearby farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven adults and critically injuring an eighth adult. The suspect, identified as 66-year-old resident Chunli Zhao, was taken into custody when he parked his third-generation [[Lexus RX350]] SUV at the Sheriff's substation in town. Zhao lived and worked at the first crime scene.<br />
<br />
== Background ==<br />
<br />
[[Half Moon Bay, California|Half Moon Bay]] is a coastal agricultural and tourist city approximately {{convert|30|miles|abbr=off|sp=us}} south of [[San Francisco, California|San Francisco]].<ref name=":0" /> Some farmworkers who live there, including those at the Mountain Mushroom Farm, are [[Undocumented immigrant population of the United States|undocumented]]. This makes it difficult for them to seek help, according to the city's vice mayor.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |last=Rodriguez |first=Olga |last2=Daley |first2=Haven |date=2023-01-25 |title=Half Moon Bay Shootings: Workplace violence investigated as motive, Gov. Newsom speaks out |url=https://www.kcra.com/article/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay-farms-employee-workplace-violence-investigated-as-motive/42639245 |website=KCRA}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Shootings ==<br />
<br />
At 2:22 pm [[Pacific Standard Time|PST]] ([[UTC-8]]), first responders were notified of a shooting at Mountain Mushroom Farm located in Half Moon Bay. Upon arriving at the farm, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was airlifted by helicopter to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] near [[Palo Alto, California|Palo Alto]], with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving at the scene, the gunman drove {{convert|2|mi|spell=in}} away to Concord Farm in a maroon Lexus RX350 SUV, where he fatally shot three more people.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at that shooting scene, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref> <br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 pm, the suspect, a resident and worker at the first farm,<ref name = "CNN-recap">{{cite web |url = https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/half-moon-bay-california-shooting-1-24-23/index.html |title = 7 killed in shooting in Half Moon Bay, California |website = CNN.com |author1 = Amir Vera |author2 = Aditi Sangal |author3 = Adrienne Vogt |author4 = Leinz Vales |author5 = Elise Hammond |author6 = Maureen Chowdhury |date = January 24, 2023 |access-date = January 24, 2023}}</ref> was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office substation at 557 Kelly Avenue in downtown Half Moon Bay.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> He was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Some of the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><ref name="BBC-2023-01-24">{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124101503/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Suspect ==<br />
<br />
The suspect was identified as 66-year-old Half Moon Bay resident Chunli Zhao (born 1956), a farm forklift driver, former restaurant worker, and a former resident of [[San Jose, California|San Jose]]. Zhao had been a forklift driver at the Mountain Mushroom Farm beginning in December 2016.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://apnews.com/article/northern-california-shootings-3eb00c19a36ad129ca7f0063f4b2aaf9|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.apnews.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
In 2012, Zhao began working at a restaurant in [[Cupertino, California|Cupertino]].<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-once-tried-to-17738909.php|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.sfchronicle.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref> In 2013, after Zhao made threats against a co-worker who also lived in the same apartment in mid-March that same year, a judge from the [[Santa Clara County, California|Santa Clara County]] Superior Court granted a restraining order against Zhao, ordering Zhao to stay 300 yards away from the co-worker when outside of the apartment and three yards away when inside the unit. The order was extended several times until it expired in July of the same year.<ref name=":1" /><br />
<br />
== Reactions ==<br />
<br />
In a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to help local authorities during their investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers |url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting |url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times |location=Singapore |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124084835/https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting}}</ref> [[Governor of California]] [[Gavin Newsom]] was informed of the shooting while visiting the hospitalized victims of the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting|Monterey Park shooting]] of less than 48 hours earlier, describing the two events in conjunction as "tragedy upon tragedy."<ref>{{cite news |date=January 23, 2023 |title="Tragedy upon tragedy": Gov Newsom reacts to Half Moon Bay shootings that killed 7 |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |work=[[CBS Sacramento]] |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124030509/https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite tweet |last=Newsom |first=Gavin |author-link=Gavin Newsom |user=GavinNewsom |number=1617697681668984838 |date=January 24, 2023 |title=At the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when I get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. This time in Half Moon Bay. Tragedy upon tragedy. |language=English |access-date=January 24, 2023 |link=https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1617697681668984838}}</ref><br />
<br />
According to the ''[[Gun Violence Archive]]'', which defines mass shootings as ones with four or more casualties (excluding the shooter), the Half Moon Bay shootings as a whole represent the 37th mass shooting in the United States in 2023.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Choi |first=Annette |date=2023-01-24 |title=This is how many mass shootings there have been so far this year |url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/how-many-mass-shootings-2023-dg-xpn/index.html |access-date=2023-01-25 |website=CNN |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Attacks in the United States in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11356136182023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-25T19:47:36Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Suspect */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|Mass shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = File:San Mateo County California Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Half Moon Bay Highlighted 0631708.svg<br />
| image_size =<br />
| image_upright =<br />
| alt =<br />
| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
| map = {{OSM Location map<br />
| nolabels = 1<br />
| coord = {{coord|37.46|-122.40}}<br />
| zoom = 12<br />
| float = center<br />
| width = 300<br />
| height = 240<br />
| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
| minimap = <!-- Adds a 'minimap image' to the designated corner --><br />
| mini-file = USA California location map.svg<br />
| mini-width = 78 <!-- The desired size of the minimap, in pixels --><br />
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| minipog-gx = 59 <!-- Values between 0 and 100, specifying an optional red marker's location in the minimap. --><br />
| minipog-gy = 80 <!-- Upper left is (0,0), lower right is (100,100). --><br />
<!-- first marker details --><br />
| label1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm<br />
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| location = [[Half Moon Bay, California]], U.S.<br />
| target =<br />
| coordinates =<br />
| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]], [[workplace violence]], [[spree killing]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
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On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two nearby farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven adults and critically injuring an eighth adult. The suspect, identified as 66-year-old resident Chunli Zhao, was taken into custody when he parked his third-generation [[Lexus RX350]] SUV at the Sheriff's substation in town. Zhao lived and worked at the first crime scene.<br />
<br />
== Background ==<br />
<br />
[[Half Moon Bay, California|Half Moon Bay]] is a coastal agricultural and tourist city approximately {{convert|30|miles|abbr=off|sp=us}} south of [[San Francisco, California|San Francisco]].<ref name=":0" /> Some farmworkers who live there, including those at the Mountain Mushroom Farm, are [[Undocumented immigrant population of the United States|undocumented]]. This makes it difficult for them to seek help, according to the city's vice mayor.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |last=Rodriguez |first=Olga |last2=Daley |first2=Haven |date=2023-01-25 |title=Half Moon Bay Shootings: Workplace violence investigated as motive, Gov. Newsom speaks out |url=https://www.kcra.com/article/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay-farms-employee-workplace-violence-investigated-as-motive/42639245 |website=KCRA}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Shootings ==<br />
<br />
At 2:22 pm [[Pacific Standard Time|PST]] ([[UTC-8]]), first responders were notified of a shooting at Mountain Mushroom Farm located in Half Moon Bay. Upon arriving at the farm, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was airlifted by helicopter to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] near [[Palo Alto, California|Palo Alto]], with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving at the scene, the gunman drove {{convert|2|mi|spell=in}} away to Concord Farm in a maroon Lexus RX350 SUV, where he fatally shot three more people.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at that shooting scene, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref> <br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 pm, the suspect, a resident and worker at the first farm,<ref name = "CNN-recap">{{cite web |url = https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/half-moon-bay-california-shooting-1-24-23/index.html |title = 7 killed in shooting in Half Moon Bay, California |website = CNN.com |author1 = Amir Vera |author2 = Aditi Sangal |author3 = Adrienne Vogt |author4 = Leinz Vales |author5 = Elise Hammond |author6 = Maureen Chowdhury |date = January 24, 2023 |access-date = January 24, 2023}}</ref> was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office substation at 557 Kelly Avenue in downtown Half Moon Bay.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> He was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Some of the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><ref name="BBC-2023-01-24">{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124101503/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Suspect ==<br />
<br />
The suspect was identified as 66-year-old Half Moon Bay resident Chunli Zhao (born 1956), a farm forklift driver, former restaurant worker, and a former resident of [[San Jose, California|San Jose]]. Zhao had been a forklift driver at the Mountain Mushroom Farm beginning in December 2016.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://apnews.com/article/northern-california-shootings-3eb00c19a36ad129ca7f0063f4b2aaf9|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.apnews.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
In 2012, Zhao began working at a restaurant in [[Cupertino, California|Cupertino]].<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-once-tried-to-17738909.php|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.sfchronicle.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref> In 2013, after Zhao made threats against a co-worker twice who also lived in the same apartment in mid-March of the same year, a judge from the [[Santa Clara County, California|Santa Clara County]] Superior Court granted a restraining order against Zhao, ordering Zhao to stay 300 yards away from the co-worker when outside of the apartment and three yards away when inside the unit. The order was extended several times until it expired in July of the same year.<ref name=":1" /><br />
<br />
== Reactions ==<br />
<br />
In a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to help local authorities during their investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers |url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting |url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times |location=Singapore |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124084835/https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting}}</ref> [[Governor of California]] [[Gavin Newsom]] was informed of the shooting while visiting the hospitalized victims of the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting|Monterey Park shooting]] of less than 48 hours earlier, describing the two events in conjunction as "tragedy upon tragedy."<ref>{{cite news |date=January 23, 2023 |title="Tragedy upon tragedy": Gov Newsom reacts to Half Moon Bay shootings that killed 7 |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |work=[[CBS Sacramento]] |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124030509/https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite tweet |last=Newsom |first=Gavin |author-link=Gavin Newsom |user=GavinNewsom |number=1617697681668984838 |date=January 24, 2023 |title=At the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when I get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. This time in Half Moon Bay. Tragedy upon tragedy. |language=English |access-date=January 24, 2023 |link=https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1617697681668984838}}</ref><br />
<br />
According to the ''[[Gun Violence Archive]]'', which defines mass shootings as ones with four or more casualties (excluding the shooter), the Half Moon Bay shootings as a whole represent the 37th mass shooting in the United States in 2023.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Choi |first=Annette |date=2023-01-24 |title=This is how many mass shootings there have been so far this year |url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/how-many-mass-shootings-2023-dg-xpn/index.html |access-date=2023-01-25 |website=CNN |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Attacks in the United States in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11356131422023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-25T19:44:21Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|Mass shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
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| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
| map = {{OSM Location map<br />
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| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
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<!-- first marker details --><br />
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| mark-title1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image1 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description1=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label2 = Concord Farm<br />
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| location = [[Half Moon Bay, California]], U.S.<br />
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| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]], [[workplace violence]], [[spree killing]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
| victims = <!-- or | victim = --><br />
| perpetrators =<br />
| assailants = <!-- or | assailant = --><br />
| weapon = [[Semi-automatic pistol]]<br />
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| coroner =<br />
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| charges =<br />
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On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two nearby farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven adults and critically injuring an eighth adult. The suspect, identified as 66-year-old resident Chunli Zhao, was taken into custody when he parked his third-generation [[Lexus RX350]] SUV at the Sheriff's substation in town. Zhao lived and worked at the first crime scene.<br />
<br />
== Background ==<br />
<br />
[[Half Moon Bay, California|Half Moon Bay]] is a coastal agricultural and tourist city approximately {{convert|30|miles|abbr=off|sp=us}} south of [[San Francisco, California|San Francisco]].<ref name=":0" /> Some farmworkers who live there, including those at the Mountain Mushroom Farm, are [[Undocumented immigrant population of the United States|undocumented]]. This makes it difficult for them to seek help, according to the city's vice mayor.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |last=Rodriguez |first=Olga |last2=Daley |first2=Haven |date=2023-01-25 |title=Half Moon Bay Shootings: Workplace violence investigated as motive, Gov. Newsom speaks out |url=https://www.kcra.com/article/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay-farms-employee-workplace-violence-investigated-as-motive/42639245 |website=KCRA}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Shootings ==<br />
<br />
At 2:22 pm [[Pacific Standard Time|PST]] ([[UTC-8]]), first responders were notified of a shooting at Mountain Mushroom Farm located in Half Moon Bay. Upon arriving at the farm, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was airlifted by helicopter to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] near [[Palo Alto, California|Palo Alto]], with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving at the scene, the gunman drove {{convert|2|mi|spell=in}} away to Concord Farm in a maroon Lexus RX350 SUV, where he fatally shot three more people.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at that shooting scene, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref> <br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 pm, the suspect, a resident and worker at the first farm,<ref name = "CNN-recap">{{cite web |url = https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/half-moon-bay-california-shooting-1-24-23/index.html |title = 7 killed in shooting in Half Moon Bay, California |website = CNN.com |author1 = Amir Vera |author2 = Aditi Sangal |author3 = Adrienne Vogt |author4 = Leinz Vales |author5 = Elise Hammond |author6 = Maureen Chowdhury |date = January 24, 2023 |access-date = January 24, 2023}}</ref> was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office substation at 557 Kelly Avenue in downtown Half Moon Bay.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> He was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Some of the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><ref name="BBC-2023-01-24">{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124101503/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Suspect ==<br />
<br />
The suspect was identified as 66-year-old Half Moon Bay resident Chunli Zhao (born 1956), a farm forklift driver, former restaurant worker, and a former resident of [[San Jose, California|San Jose]]. Zhao had been a forklift driver at the Mountain Mushroom Farm beginning in December 2016.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://apnews.com/article/northern-california-shootings-3eb00c19a36ad129ca7f0063f4b2aaf9|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.apnews.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
In 2012, Zhao began working at a restaurant in [[Cupertino, California|Cupertino]].<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-once-tried-to-17738909.php|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.sfchronicle.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref> In 2013, after Zhao made threats against a co-worker who also lived in the same apartment, a judge from the [[Santa Clara County, California|Santa Clara County]] Superior Court granted a restraining order against Zhao, ordering Zhao to stay 300 yards away from the co-worker when outside of the apartment and three yards away when inside the unit. The order was extended several times until it expired in July of the same year.<ref name=":1" /><br />
<br />
== Reactions ==<br />
<br />
In a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to help local authorities during their investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers |url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting |url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times |location=Singapore |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124084835/https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting}}</ref> [[Governor of California]] [[Gavin Newsom]] was informed of the shooting while visiting the hospitalized victims of the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting|Monterey Park shooting]] of less than 48 hours earlier, describing the two events in conjunction as "tragedy upon tragedy."<ref>{{cite news |date=January 23, 2023 |title="Tragedy upon tragedy": Gov Newsom reacts to Half Moon Bay shootings that killed 7 |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |work=[[CBS Sacramento]] |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124030509/https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite tweet |last=Newsom |first=Gavin |author-link=Gavin Newsom |user=GavinNewsom |number=1617697681668984838 |date=January 24, 2023 |title=At the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when I get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. This time in Half Moon Bay. Tragedy upon tragedy. |language=English |access-date=January 24, 2023 |link=https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1617697681668984838}}</ref><br />
<br />
According to the ''[[Gun Violence Archive]]'', which defines mass shootings as ones with four or more casualties (excluding the shooter), the Half Moon Bay shootings as a whole represent the 37th mass shooting in the United States in 2023.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Choi |first=Annette |date=2023-01-24 |title=This is how many mass shootings there have been so far this year |url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/us/how-many-mass-shootings-2023-dg-xpn/index.html |access-date=2023-01-25 |website=CNN |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Attacks in the United States in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_Deona_Marie_Knajdek&diff=1135598505Killing of Deona Marie Knajdek2023-01-25T17:50:07Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Use mdy dates|date=June 2021}}<br />
{{Short description|Vehicle-ramming attack in Minneapolis in June 2021}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = Killing of Deona Marie Knajdek<br />
| partof = [[2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest]]<br />
| image = File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51245959346) (cropped).jpg<br />
| caption = The secured crime scene of the attack<br />
| location = [[Minneapolis]], [[Minnesota]], United States<br />
| coordinates = {{coord|44|56|53.6701|N|93|17|51.3492|W|region:US-MN_type:event|display=inline,title}}<br />
| date = {{nowrap|June 13, 2021}}<br />
| time = 11:39&nbsp;p.m<br />
| timezone = [[Central Time Zone|CDT]]<br />
| type = [[Vehicle-ramming attack]]<br />
| fatalities = 1<br />
| injuries = 4 (including the driver)<br />
| perpetrators = Nicholas Kraus (driver)<br />
| weapons = [[Jeep Cherokee]]<br />
| convicted = {{plainlist|<br />
*Second-degree Unintentional murder<br />
*Second-degree assault with a deadly weapon}}<br />
| verdict = Pleaded guilty on October 24, 2022<br />
| charges = {{plainlist|<br />
*Second-degree intentional [[murder]]<br />
*Second-degree assault with a deadly weapon}}<br />
| notes = ''State of Minnesota vs. Nicholas David Kraus''<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''Deona Marie Knajdek''' (also reported as Deona Marie Erickson<ref>{{Cite web |date=2021-06-14 |title=Erickson, Deona Marie (Case No: 2021-4069) |url=https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2021/06/16/file_attachments/1855959/2021-4069%20Erickson,%20Deona%20Marie.pdf |access-date=2022-06-14 |website=[[Hennepin County]] Medical Examiner}}</ref>), a 31-year old American woman, was killed on June 13, 2021, when a man drove a car into a crowd of demonstrators who had gathered as a part of the [[2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest|Uptown Minneapolis unrest]]. That evening, demonstrators protesting the law enforcement [[killing of Winston Boogie Smith]] had blocked the intersection of West [[Lake Street (Minneapolis)|Lake Street]] and Girard Avenue.<ref name=":0">{{Cite news|last1=Sepic|first1=Matt|last2=Nelson|first2=Tim|last3=Collins|first3=Jon|date=June 14, 2021|title=1 dead, 3 hurt after driver plows into protesters in Uptown Minneapolis|work=[[Minnesota Public Radio]]|url=https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/14/one-dead-after-driver-crashes-into-protesters-in-uptown-minneapolis|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614124231/https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/14/one-dead-after-driver-crashes-into-protesters-in-uptown-minneapolis|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":10">{{Cite news|last=|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman dead, 3 others hurt after suspect drives into protesters in Uptown|work=[[KMSP-TV]]|url=https://www.fox9.com/news/woman-dead-after-suspect-drives-into-protesters-in-uptown|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224039/https://www.fox9.com/news/woman-dead-after-suspect-drives-into-protesters-in-uptown|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref> At approximately 11:39{{Nbsp}}p.m.{{Nbsp}}[[Central Time Zone|CDT]], a man in a late-model [[Jeep Cherokee]] drove into the crowd at a high speed, striking a parked vehicle that had been used to block off the intersection to traffic, which then collided with protesters, killing Knajdek and injuring three others.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13">{{Cite news|last=Albeck-Ripka|first=Livia|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman Dies After Driver Hits Crowd in Minneapolis|language=en-US|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/us/minneapolis-protest-car-death.html|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614195821/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/us/minneapolis-protest-car-death.html|archive-date=June 14, 2021|issn=0362-4331}}</ref><ref name=":15">{{Cite web|last1=Chirbas|first1=Kurt|last2=Elbaum|first2=Rachel|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman killed after car drives into protesters in Minneapolis|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-killed-after-car-drives-protesters-minneapolis-n1270639|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224040/https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-killed-after-car-drives-protesters-minneapolis-n1270639|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[NBC News]]|language=en}}</ref> <br />
<br />
The driver, Nicholas Kraus of Saint Paul, Minnesota, was charged with [[Murder|second-degree intentional murder]] and two counts of [[Assault|assault with a deadly weapon]] in relation to the crash, after allegedly telling investigators that he had accelerated towards the crowd in an attempt to clear cars acting as barricades.<ref name=":8">{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 16, 2021|title=Unlicensed driver charged with murder in killing of Uptown protester|url=https://www.startribune.com/murder-charge-unlicensed-driver-intentionally-accellerated-toward-protesters-in-hopes-of-clearing-ba/600068834/|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]}}</ref> Investigators believed that Kraus might have been intoxicated during the incident.<ref name=":8" /><ref name=":9" /> After being charged criminally, Kraus was found mentally competent to stand trial.<ref name=":18">{{Cite web |last=Blume |first=Paul |date=2022-07-07 |title=ANOTHER DELAY: Court records now show NICHOLAS KRAUS trial for murder & assault pushed back to October. Was scheduled to begin next week. KRAUS accused of plowing his SUV into a crowd of #Uptown protesters, killing Deona Marie & injuring several others last year. |url=https://twitter.com/paulblume_fox9/status/1545236417739104258 |website=[[Twitter]]}}</ref> To avoid trial in late 2022, Kraus pleaded guilty to second degree unintentional murder (the second degree intentional murder charged was dropped) and second-degree assault with a dangerous weapon.<ref name=":19">{{Cite news |last=Hyatt |first=Kim |date=2022-10-24 |title=St. Paul man who drove into crowd of Uptown protesters pleads guilty to murder, assault |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/st-paul-man-pleads-guilty-to-murder-of-woman-after-driving-into-crowd-of-uptown-protesters-in-2021/600218609/ |access-date=2022-10-24}}</ref> He admitted to the court that the night he killed Knajdek he was under the influence of illegal narcotics and that he intentionally drove his car into barricades that blocked the street. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison.<ref name=":20">{{Cite news |last=Blume |first=Paul |last2=Melissa Turtinen |date=2022-11-23 |title=Driver who killed Minneapolis protester in 2021 sentenced |work=[[KMSP-TV]] |url=https://www.fox9.com/news/nicholas-kraus-sentencing |access-date=2022-11-23}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Background ==<br />
{{See also|Killing of Winston Boogie Smith|2021 Uptown Minneapolis unrest}}<br />
A series of protests and civil unrest in the [[U.S. City|U.S. city]] of [[Minneapolis]] began on June 3, 2021, as a reaction to the police killing of Winston Boogie Smith. Smith, a 32-year-old black American man,<ref name=":14">{{Cite news|last=Bellware|first=Kim|date=June 5, 2021|title=A Black Minneapolis man was shot by a U.S. Marshals task force. Investigators say there's no video evidence.|language=en-US|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/05/minneapolis-winston-boogie-smith-shooting/|url-status=live|access-date=June 7, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210605233945/https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/05/minneapolis-winston-boogie-smith-shooting/|archive-date=June 5, 2021|issn=0190-8286}}</ref> allegedly brandished a gun as law enforcement officers attempted to apprehend him. Police fired several rounds at Smith, killing him. At some point during the incident, Smith discharged a firearm.<ref name=":2323">{{Cite news |last=Wiita |first=Tommy |date=June 4, 2021 |title=Suspect identified in Uptown police shooting; family demands video evidence |work=[[KSTP-TV]] |url=https://kstp.com/news/winston-smith-identified-as-suspect-in-uptown-police-shooting-family-demands-video-evidence/6131374/ |url-status=live |access-date=June 4, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604203253/https://kstp.com/news/winston-smith-identified-as-suspect-in-uptown-police-shooting-family-demands-video-evidence/6131374/ |archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":212">{{Cite news |last= |date=June 4, 2021 |title=UPDATE: 9 arrested in overnight vandalism, looting in Uptown; suspect said to have fired weapon at police |work=[[KSTP-TV]] |url=https://www.kstp.com/news/overnight-vandalism-looting-reported-after-officers-shot-killed-suspect-uptown-parking-ramp-minneapolis/6130847/?cat=1 |url-status=live |access-date=June 4, 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604111006/https://kstp.com/news/overnight-vandalism-looting-reported-after-officers-shot-killed-suspect-uptown-parking-ramp-minneapolis/6130847/?cat=1 |archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":2022">{{Cite news|last1=Olson|first1=Rochelle|last2=Jany|first2=Libor|last3=Rao|first3=Maya|date=June 4, 2021|title=BCA: Man shot and killed by police fired from inside vehicle; no footage of incident|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/bca-man-shot-and-killed-by-police-fired-from-inside-vehicle-no-footage-of-incident/600064680/|url-status=live|access-date=June 4, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210604180559/https://www.startribune.com/bca-man-shot-and-killed-by-police-fired-from-inside-vehicle-no-footage-of-incident/600064680/|archive-date=June 4, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last=|date=June 3, 2021|title=BCA: Man fired weapon before he was shot, killed by law enforcement in Uptown|url=https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/uptown-minneapolis-shooting/89-070ac371-5567-4a36-9d18-a7abc7e048a7|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224104/https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/uptown-minneapolis-shooting/89-070ac371-5567-4a36-9d18-a7abc7e048a7|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 4, 2021|website=[[KARE-11]]|language=en-US}}</ref><ref name=":172">{{Cite news |last=Xiong |first=Chao |date=2021-06-16 |title=Gun evidence recovered from Winston Smith shooting scene, circumstances still murky |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/gun-evidence-recovered-from-winston-smith-shooting-scene-circumstances-still-murky/600068976/ |access-date=2021-06-16}}</ref> There was no known video evidence of the encounter, and a passenger in Smith's car and protesters disputed the law enforcement account of events.<ref name=":2022" /><br />
<br />
Civil unrest began in the [[Uptown, Minneapolis|Uptown]] district on June 3 when few details of the incident were known. Two nights of protests followed that included looting and rioting.<ref name=":4">{{Cite news|last=Brown|first=Kyle|date=June 5, 2021|title=27 people arrested after second night of unrest in Uptown|work=[[KSTP-TV]]|url=https://kstp.com/news/27-people-arrested-after-second-night-of-unrest-in-uptown/6132318/|url-status=live|access-date=June 6, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210606030743/https://kstp.com/news/27-people-arrested-after-second-night-of-unrest-in-uptown/6132318/|archive-date=June 6, 2021}}</ref> Protests were held over subsequent days with demonstrators periodically occupying a street intersection near where Smith was killed.<ref name=":0" /><br />
<br />
== Vehicle-ramming attack ==<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51245959861).jpg|alt=Close up view of the damaged vehicles on East Lake Street in Minneapolis.|thumb|Damaged vehicles, June 13, 2021]]<br />
The evening of June 13, 2021, demonstrators blocked the intersection of West Lake Street and Girard Avenue for an event, with some playing volleyball and [[lawn game]]s.<ref name=":0" /><ref name=":10" /> At approximately 11:39{{Nbsp}}p.m.{{Nbsp}}CDT, Nicholas Kraus, in a [[Jeep Cherokee]], drove into the crowd at a high speed, striking a parked vehicle that had been used to block off the intersection to traffic, which then collided with protesters.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13" /><ref name=":15" /> One protester was killed, and three others suffered injuries that were not life-threatening.<ref name=":10" /><ref name=":13" /> Demonstrators, who said Kraus was trying to flee the scene after the crash, detained him until police arrived.<ref name=":0" /><ref name=":10" /> Kraus was treated at a hospital and then booked into a Hennepin County jail that night on probable cause of criminal [[vehicular homicide]], driving on a cancelled license, and providing false information to police.<ref name=":7">{{Cite web|date=June 15, 2021|title=Man jailed in fatal crash at Minneapolis rally has past DWIs|url=https://apnews.com/article/george-floyd-minneapolis-death-of-daunte-wright-d8ce0e8cfac2fd550253caf776c5a241|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[AP News]]}}</ref><br />
<br />
=== Victims ===<br />
<br />
==== Deona Marie Knajdek ====<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Deona Marie march and protest June 15, 2021 Minneapolis (51249336358).jpg|alt=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|thumb|Chalk art depiction of Knajdek, June 14, 2021]]<br />
The deceased victim was Deona Marie Knajdek,<ref>{{Cite news |last=HoangLong |first=Samantha |date=2021-10-20 |title=What we know (and don't know) about the killing of Winston Boogie Smith Jr. in Minneapolis |work=[[Star Tribune]] |url=https://www.startribune.com/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-the-killing-of-winston-boogie-smith-jr-uptown-minneapolis-police/600084825/ |access-date=2021-10-20}}</ref> a 31-year-old woman from Minneapolis.<ref name=":5" /> Initial news reports identified her as Deona M. Knajdek<ref name=":6">{{Cite news|last1=Walsh|first1=Paul|last2=Reinan|first2=John|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing 31-year-old woman and injuring others|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224041/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|archive-date=June 14, 2021}}</ref><ref name=":5">{{Cite news|last=Bellware|first=Kim|date=June 14, 2021|title=Woman killed when driver plows into crowd protesting U.S. Marshals' shooting of Black man|language=en-US|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/14/driver-kills-protester-minneapolis/|access-date=June 15, 2021|issn=0190-8286|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170142/https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/14/driver-kills-protester-minneapolis/|url-status=live}}</ref> Some reports also identified her as Deona Marie Knajdek Erickson,<ref name=":17">{{Cite news |last=Turtinen |first=Melissa |date=2021-06-21 |title=Charges: Drunk driver accelerated 'to jump barricade' in crash that killed protester |work=[[Bring Me The News]] |url=https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/charges-drunk-motorist-sped-up-to-jump-barricade-in-crash-that-killed-protester |access-date=2021-06-21}}</ref> Deona Erickson,<ref name=":0" /> or Deona Marie.<ref name=":10" /> She used the name Deona Marie on her [[Facebook]] social media profile.<ref name=":6" /><br />
<br />
According to her family, the car that was struck belonged to Knajdek, and she had parked it there as a blockade to protect protesters.<ref name=":6" /><ref>{{Cite web|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver Plows Into Protesters In Uptown; Woman Killed Identified As Deona Knajdek|url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/14/woman-killed-after-driver-plows-into-protesters-in-uptown/|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210614224040/https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/14/woman-killed-after-driver-plows-into-protesters-in-uptown/|archive-date=June 14, 2021|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[WCCO-TV]]|language=en-US}}</ref> Her family described her as an active supporter of [[Black Lives Matter]] and social activists on issues of police brutality and gun violence.<ref name=":12">{{Cite news|last=Hyatt|first=Kim|date=2021-06-21|title=Protester killed in Uptown remembered at funeral as 'one of the greatest superheroes'|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/protester-killed-in-uptown-remembered-at-funeral-as-one-of-the-greatest-superheroes/600070593/|access-date=2021-06-21}}</ref><ref name=":1" /> Knajdek was a program manager for The Cottages Group, a [[home health care]] provider. She had two daughters, who were 11 and 13 at the time of her death.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 14, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing one and injuring another|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 14, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170113/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/}}</ref> Knajdek had participated in daily protests over the killing of Winston Smith since June 3.<ref name=":12" /><br />
<br />
==== Other victims ====<br />
Three other people were injured in the collision. One protester with non-life-threatening injuries and Knajdek were transported to [[Hennepin County Medical Center]] by ambulance. Two others later sought medical treatment for non-critical injuries related to the crash.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Simon|first=Alexandra|date=June 15, 2021|title=Woman killed, 3 others hurt after driver hits car shielding crowd of protesters in Uptown|url=https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/woman-killed-one-injured-after-car-drives-into-uptown-protest/89-6c91b39b-2db4-482a-9b9d-f252c1d67462|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[KARE-11]]|language=en-US}}</ref><br />
<br />
=== Suspect ===<br />
Nicholas David Kraus, a 35-year-old man from neighboring [[Saint Paul, Minnesota]] (born November 29, 1985), was the driver of the vehicle that struck the demonstrators.<ref name=":7" /><ref name=":15" /> Kraus had five prior convictions for [[driving under the influence]] spanning 2008–2016, and his license had been canceled in 2013 for safety concerns.<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|last=Weniger|first=Deanna|date=June 16, 2021|title=Police identify St. Paul man who drove into protesters in Minneapolis, killing a 31-year-old woman|url=https://www.twincities.com/2021/06/15/police-identify-man-who-drove-into-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-a-31-year-old-woman/|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170100/https://www.twincities.com/2021/06/15/police-identify-man-who-drove-into-protesters-in-minneapolis-killing-a-31-year-old-woman/|archive-date=June 16, 2021|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[St. Paul Pioneer Press]]|language=en-US}}</ref> He also had prior convictions for driving without a valid license, assault, failure to have insurance, and providing a false name to police.<ref name=":8" /><br />
<br />
== Criminal proceedings ==<br />
=== Investigation and charges ===<br />
[[File:Winston Smith Protests, Minneapolis, June 13, 2021 - Vehicle drives through protesters, killing 1 (51246719354).jpg|alt=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|thumb|Damaged vehicles several hours after the attack, June 14, 2021]]<br />
Kraus allegedly made statements to police in which he repeatedly admitted to operating the vehicle.<ref name=":7" /> When questioned, he reportedly gave "illogical and irrelevant answers", which led police to believe he was intoxicated.<ref name=":7" /><ref name=":8" /> Kraus later allegedly admitted to investigators that he had intentionally accelerated towards the demonstrators in hopes of clearing the barricades that had been placed to protect the protestors.<ref name=":8" /><br />
<br />
According to search warrants filed in court on June 15, 2021, officials believed that footage captured by a [[closed-circuit camera]] appeared to show that the car's brake lights did not activate prior to the crash.<ref name=":11">{{Cite news|last=Sepic|first=Matt|date=June 16, 2021|title=Protesters continue barricading Lake Street to remember 2 killed|work=[[Minnesota Public Radio]]|url=https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/16/protesters-continue-barricading-lake-street-to-remember-two-killed|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170103/https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/06/16/protesters-continue-barricading-lake-street-to-remember-two-killed|archive-date=June 16, 2021}}</ref> Three hours before the June 13, 2021, vehicle attack, a demonstrator had climbed a pole and spray painted a surveillance camera located at the intersection of West Lake Street and Girard Avenue. Officials believed the camera would have captured "crucial evidence" about crash, and law enforcement sought the public's assistance to identify a suspect who painted over the camera.<ref>{{Cite news|date=2021-06-15|title=Police seek person who spray-painted over city camera they say would have captured fatal crash at Winston Smith protest|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/police-seek-person-who-spray-painted-over-city-camera-they-say-would-have-captured-fatal-crash-at-wi/600068545/|access-date=2021-06-18}}</ref> A witness reported that the car seemed to accelerate as it approached the demonstration.<ref name=":3" /> Minneapolis police said in a statement shortly after the attack that they believed that the driver may have been under the influence of drugs or alcohol,<ref name=":6" /><ref name=":15" /> but [[Field sobriety testing|field sobriety tests]] were not performed due to his injuries.<ref name=":7" /><br />
<br />
On June 16, 2021, Kraus was charged with [[Murder|second-degree intentional murder]] and two counts of [[Assault|assault with a deadly weapon]] in relation to the crash.<ref name=":8" /> Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said in a statement that Kraus had been intoxicated during the attack and that he accelerated his vehicle rather than braking.<ref name=":8" /><ref name=":9">{{Cite news|date=2021-06-17|title=Nicholas Kraus Makes 1st Court Appearance In Uptown Protester's Death, Will Be Examined For Competency|work=[[WCCO-TV]]|url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/06/17/nicholas-kraus-makes-1st-court-appearance-in-uptown-protesters-death-will-be-examined-for-competency/|access-date=2021-06-18}}</ref> Kraus was held in jail on a $1 million bond. He made his first court appearance on June 17, 2021, in Hennepin County District Court and was ordered by the judge to under go a psychological evaluation to determine if he was competent to stand trial.<ref name=":9" /><br />
<br />
=== Guilty plea ===<br />
Kraus was found [[Competence (law)|mentally competent]] to stand trial after a court proceeding on September 10, 2021.<ref>{{Cite news|last=Olson|first=Rochelle|date=2021-09-10|title=Uptown driver who killed, injured protesters in June found competent for trial|work=[[Star Tribune]]|url=https://www.startribune.com/uptown-driver-who-killed-injured-protesters-in-june-found-competent-for-trial/600095780/|access-date=2021-09-10}}</ref> Kraus’ trial was initially scheduled to begin on March 21, 2022,<ref name=":16">{{Cite news |date=2021-10-06 |title=Nicholas Kraus, Accused Of Fatally Plowing Into Uptown Protesters, To Stand Trial In March |work=[[WCCO-TV]] |url=https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/10/06/nicholas-kraus-accused-of-fatally-plowing-into-uptown-protesters-to-stand-trial-in-march/ |access-date=2021-10-06}}</ref> but it was delayed to July,<ref>{{Cite web |last=Unicorn Riot |date=2022-03-21 |title=Nicholas Kraus' trial for his car attack on a #WinstonSmith protest that killed Deona Marie last summer has been delayed until July 11th. He remains in custody in the Hennepin County Jail. |url=https://twitter.com/ur_ninja/status/1507534790446223366 |access-date=2022-04-05 |website=Twitter |language=en}}</ref> and then delayed again to October of that same year.<ref name=":18" /> Just as his the trial was about to commence, Kraus pleaded guilty in Hennepin County District Court on October 24, 2022. The charge of intentional second-degree murder charge was amended to unintentional second-degree murder, a lesser charge. Kraus also pleaded guilty to second-degree assault with a dangerous weapon for injuring another protester with his car. A second assault charge for another injured protester was dropped.<ref name=":19" /> At his sentencing hearing on November 23, 2022, Kraus was sentenced concurrently to 20 years in prison for the unintentional murder charge and 3.75 years for the assault charge. Kraus admitted to investigators and before the court that he had driven his vehicle at a high rate of speed toward the makeshift barricades the night of June 13, 2021. His attorney said that he was unaware there was a demonstration and that he did not have a political motive for his actions.<ref name=":20" /> Kraus is currently confined at the [[Minnesota Correctional Facility – St. Cloud]] facility in [[St. Cloud, Minnesota]].<br />
<br />
== Memorial and funeral ==<br />
<br />
Hundreds of mourners gathered at the site of the attack for a vigil on the evening of June 14, 2021, and demonstrations continued that evening and in the following days.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Walsh|first=Paul|date=June 15, 2021|title=Driver hits Uptown protesters in Minneapolis, killing one and injuring another|url=https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/|url-status=live|access-date=June 16, 2021|website=[[Star Tribune]]|archive-date=June 16, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210616170152/https://www.startribune.com/driver-hits-uptown-protest-in-minneapolis-killing-31-year-old-woman-and-injuring-others/600067949/}}</ref> Knajdek's funeral was held on June 21, 2021, in her hometown of [[Rush City, Minnesota]].<ref name=":12" /><br />
{{Gallery|width=120|height=100<br />
|File:Winston Smith Deona Marie march and protest June 15, 2021 Minneapolis (51248425302).jpg|alt1=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|Memorial for Knajdek, June 15, 2021<br />
|File:06 16 21 Uptown Minneapolis (51291784987).jpg|alt2=People gather around piled flowers, candles, and signs memorializing Knajdek|32nd birthday memorial, June 16, 2021<br />
|File:Deona Knajdek Memorial (51293398225).jpg|alt3=Piled flower at a street intersection|Makeshift memorial, June 30, 2021 <br />
}}<br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
{{div col}}<br />
* [[2020–2021 United States racial unrest]]<br />
* [[2020–2021 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial unrest]]<br />
* [[George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul]]<br />
* [[List of civil unrest in Minneapolis–Saint Paul]]<br />
* [[List of vehicle-ramming incidents during George Floyd protests]]<br />
{{div col end}}<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
== Further reading ==<br />
* Brooks, Jennifer (June 16, 2021). “[https://www.startribune.com/jennifer-brooks-deona-knajdek-fought-so-minneapolis-wouldn-t-look-away-from-its-pain/600068806/ Deona Knajdek fought so Minneapolis wouldn't look away from its pain]”. ''[[Star Tribune]]''. Retrieved June 18, 2021.<br />
* Marcus, Josh (June 25, 2021). "[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/deona-marie-minneapolis-car-attack-b1870259.html Deona Marie and the epidemic of car attacks against racial justice activists]". ''[[The Independent]]''. Retrieved June 25, 2021.<br />
<br />
== External links ==<br />
<br />
* ''State of Minnesota vs. Nicholas David Kraus'', [https://www.mnlegaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Kraus-Complaint-3.pdf criminal complaint]<br />
{{Black Lives Matter}}<br />
{{Riots in the United States (1980–present)}}<br />
{{Vehicle-ramming attacks}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Knajdek, Deona}}<br />
[[Category:2020–2021 United States racial unrest]]<br />
[[Category:2020s in Minneapolis]]<br />
[[Category:2020s road incidents in North America]]<br />
[[Category:2021 in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:2021 road incidents]]<br />
[[Category:Black Lives Matter]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by person in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:June 2021 events in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Road incident deaths in Minnesota]]<br />
[[Category:Vehicular rampage in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:June 2021 crimes in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Waukesha_Christmas_parade_attack&diff=1135597602Waukesha Christmas parade attack2023-01-25T17:42:29Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div></div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2021_Colorado_Springs_shooting&diff=11355784452021 Colorado Springs shooting2023-01-25T15:10:47Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{For|other shootings in Colorado Springs|Colorado Springs shooting (disambiguation){{!}}Colorado Springs shooting}}<br />
{{Short description|Mass shooting in Colorado Springs, Colorado}}<br />
{{Use mdy dates|date=May 2021}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=May 2021}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2021 Colorado Springs shooting<br />
| caption = <br />
| map = <br />
| location = [[Colorado Springs, Colorado]], U.S.<br />
| coordinates = {{coord|38.79056|N|104.73022|W|display=inline, title}}<br />
| target = <br />
| date = {{start date|2021|05|09}}<br />
| time = 12:18 a.m.<br />
| timezone = [[Mountain Time Zone|MDT]]<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = <br />
| fatalities = 7 (including the perpetrator)<ref name="CNN.Killed">{{Cite news |last=Andone |first=Dakin |date=2021-05-09 |title=6 people were killed at a Colorado Springs birthday party. The suspected shooter is also dead |url=https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/09/us/colorado-springs-shooting/index.html |access-date=2021-03-22 |work=CNN}}</ref><br />
| injuries = 0<br />
| accused = <br />
| charges = <br />
| motive = <br />
| weapons = [[9mm]] [[Smith & Wesson M&P]] semi-automatic pistol<ref>{{cite news|last=Coffman|first=Keith|url= https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2CT005|title= Colorado police say suspect who killed six at party had 'control issues'|date=May 11, 2021|access-date=2021-05-11|work=Reuters}}</ref><br />
| perp = Teodoro Macias<br />
}}<br />
On May 9, 2021, a [[mass shooting]] occurred at a birthday [[party]] in [[Colorado Springs, Colorado]], United States. Seven people were killed, including the gunman who committed suicide.<ref name=":9news">{{Cite news|last=Campbell-Hicks|first=Jennifer|date=2021-05-09|title=6 victims in shooting at Colorado Springs birthday party, suspected gunman takes own life|url=https://www.9news.com/article/news/crime/colorado-springs-shooting-multiple-victims/73-428e2525-2e0d-4c6e-a716-6badf26bedea|archive-url=https://archive.today/20210510014252/https://www.9news.com/article/news/crime/colorado-springs-shooting-multiple-victims/73-428e2525-2e0d-4c6e-a716-6badf26bedea|archive-date=May 10, 2021|url-status=live|access-date=2021-05-09|work=9News}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Shooting ==<br />
Shortly after midnight on May 9, 2021, police responded to a shooting at Canterbury Mobile Home Park, located near the [[Colorado Springs Airport]]. The shooting happened at a birthday party, with adults and children gathered inside.<ref>{{Cite news |title=6 people killed in apparent murder-suicide at birthday party in Colorado Springs|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/6-people-killed-apparent-murder-suicide-birthday-party-colorado-springs-n1266792|access-date=2021-05-10|work=NBC News|language=en}}</ref> According to the police, the perpetrator was a boyfriend of one of the female victims;<ref>{{Cite news|title=7 Dead Including Gunman In Colorado Birthday Party Shooting|url=https://www.npr.org/2021/05/09/995269921/7-dead-including-gunman-in-colorado-birthday-party-shooting|access-date=2021-05-10|work=NPR |language=en}}</ref> he drove to the home, walked in, and started shooting. He then killed himself.<ref name=NYT-Pietsch>{{cite news|work=[[New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/09/us/colorado-springs-shooting.html|title=7 Dead in Shooting at Birthday Party in Colorado, Police Say|author=Bryan Pietsch|date=2021-05-09|access-date=2021-05-09}} </ref> The birthday party was for one of the people killed in the shooting.<ref>{{cite news|work=[[Associated Press]]|url=https://apnews.com/article/us-news-ap-top-news-colorado-springs-colorado-shootings-17954f1d457aa4c68d461535457fb235|title=Man kills 6, then self, at Colorado birthday party shooting|date=2021-05-09|access-date=2021-05-09}}</ref><br />
<br />
When the police arrived, they found six adults who were dead, including the perpetrator, and one man with serious injuries. He was transported to a hospital and died there.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Aspegren|first=Elinor|title='Unspeakable acts': Gunman kills 6, then self, at birthday party in Colorado Springs, Colorado, police say|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/05/09/colorado-springs-shooting-birthday-party-suspect-victims/5016257001/|access-date=2021-05-10|newspaper=USA TODAY|language=en-US}}</ref> The children present in the home at the time of the shooting were not injured.<ref name=NYT-Pietsch/><br />
<br />
== Perpetrator ==<br />
The police subsequently identified the shooter as 28-year-old Teodoro Macias (November 11, 1992 – May 9, 2021).<ref name=USAToday>{{cite news|newspaper=[[USA Today]]|url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/05/11/colorado-springs-shooting-police-release-updates-mass-killing/5034182001/|title='We've got children orphaned': Police name 6 victims of Colorado Springs birthday party shooting |author=Christine Fernando |author2=Ryan W. Miller |author3=Grace Hauck|date=2021-05-11|access-date=2021-05-11}}</ref> Macias was the boyfriend of one of the victims, whose family was hosting the birthday party. The family had a conflict with Macias about a week earlier because of his jealous and controlling behavior, and he had not been invited to the party. Macias had no criminal record.<ref name=USAToday/><ref name=Schmelzer>{{cite news|url=https://www.denverpost.com/2021/05/11/teodoro-macias-colorado-springs-shooting-suspect/|newspaper=[[Denver Post]]|title=Colorado Springs shooter who killed 6 at party had "displayed power and control issues," police say|author=Elise Schmelzer|date=2021-05-11|access-date=2021-05-11}}</ref><br />
<br />
Macias was armed with a [[Smith & Wesson]] [[9mm]] [[semi-automatic pistol]] and two 15-round magazines, one of which was still loaded. The gun was purchased at a local gun store in 2014, but Macias was not the buyer. The gun had not been reported stolen, and the police were trying to determine where and how Macias obtained it.<ref name=USAToday/><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
*[[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2021]]<br />
*[[List of shootings in Colorado]]<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{Authority control}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Colorado Springs shooting, 2021}}<br />
[[Category:2021 in Colorado]]<br />
[[Category:2021 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:2021 murders in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:2020s crimes in Colorado]]<br />
[[Category:Attacks on buildings and structures in 2021]]<br />
[[Category:Attacks on buildings and structures in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:History of Colorado Springs, Colorado|2021 shooting]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in Colorado]]<br />
[[Category:May 2021 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:21st-century mass murder in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in Colorado]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass murder in 2021]]<br />
[[Category:Murder–suicides in Colorado]]<br />
<br />
<br />
{{Crime-stub}}</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Covina_massacre&diff=1135577570Covina massacre2023-01-25T15:03:45Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Use mdy dates|date=December 2020}}<br />
{{redirect|Sylvia Pardo|the Mexican painter|Silvia Pardo}}{{Redirect|Christmas eve massacre|the massacre in Myanmar|Mo So massacre}}{{short description|Nine people killed in the suburbs of Los Angeles, California, US}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack <br />
|title = Covina massacre<br />
|partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
|image = Bruce Jeffrey Pardo.jpg<br />
|image_size = 175px<br />
|caption = Bruce Jeffrey Pardo<br />
|location = [[Covina, California]], United States<br />
| map = {{Infobox mapframe|marker=building|zoom=14|coord={{coord|34.08050|N|117.867222|W|display=inline}}}}<br />
|target = Ex-wife and her family<br />
|date = {{start date|2008|12|24}}<br />
|time = {{circa}} 11:30 p.m.<br />
|timezone = [[UTC]]-8<br />
|type = [[Mass murder]], [[murder-suicide]], [[arson|torching]]<br />
|fatalities = 10 (including the perpetrator)<br />
|injuries = 3 (2 from gunfire)<br />
|perp = Bruce Jeffrey Pardo<br />
|weapons =<br />
* Four [[semi-automatic handgun]]s<br />
* Homemade [[flamethrower]]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
The '''Covina massacre''' was a mass murder carried out on [[Christmas Eve]] by a disgruntled ex-husband in [[Los Angeles County, California]], United States, in 2008. Bruce Jeffrey Pardo, who was wearing a [[Santa suit|Santa costume]], entered a property belonging to his former in-laws in [[Covina, California|Covina]] and killed nine people either by [[gunshot wound|shooting]] or [[arson]] from the fire he started. Three people, including Pardo's ex-wife and his former [[in-laws]], were declared missing pending identification of their bodies.<ref>{{cite news|url = http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-christmas-weekend-shootings-20151228-story.html|title = 6 killed, at least 23 hurt in Christmas weekend shootings|publisher = Chicago Tribune|date = December 28, 2008}}</ref> The 45-year-old local resident killed himself with a self-inflicted gunshot to the head at his brother's residence in the early hours of [[Christmas Day]].<ref name="Frank Girardot's Crime Scene Blog">{{cite web|url=http://www.insidesocal.com/sgvcrime/2009/01/the-covina-massacre.html |title=Frank Girardot's Crime Scene blog|website=www.insidesocal.com|accessdate=22 December 2022}}</ref> At the time, the incident was the deadliest mass shooting in Los Angeles County history, being surpassed 14 years later by the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]].<ref>{{cite news |last1=Lin |first1=Summer |last2=Winton |first2=Richard |last3=Ellis |first3=Rebecca |last4=Park |first4=Jeong |last5=Jany |first5=Libor |last6=Lin II |first6=Rong-Gong |last7=Wick |first7=Julia |last8=Smith |first8=Hayley |last9=Truong |first9=Debbie |last10=Toohey |first10=Gracey |last11=Newberry |first11=Laura |title=Authorities Identify 72-Year-Old Man As Suspected Gunman in Lunar New Year Mass Shooting |url=https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-01-22/la-me-monterey-park-mass-shooting |access-date=January 23, 2023 |work=Los Angeles Times |date=January 22, 2023}}</ref><br />
<br />
Police speculated that Pardo's divorce, which had been finalized on December 18 only one week before the killings, was a significant factor for the violence and why Pardo had entered the home on 1129 East Knollcrest Drive during a Christmas Eve party and killed his ex-wife and her relatives.<ref name="AP">{{cite web|url=https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_us/santa_shooting|title=Santa gunman was in bitter divorce, lost job|publisher=[[Associated Press]]|date=December 26, 2008}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|url= https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/us/27shooting.html?ref=us|title=9th Body Found in California Attack|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=December 26, 2008 | first1=Solomon | last1=Moore | first2=Anahad | last2=O'Connor | accessdate=April 30, 2010}}</ref><br />
<br />
==Killings==<br />
At approximately 11:30&nbsp;p.m. PST, 45-year-old Bruce Jeffrey Pardo (March 23, 1963 – December 25, 2008), dressed in a Santa Claus suit, knocked on the door of his former in-laws' house, occupied by about 25 people, with a [[giftwrap|gift-wrapped]] package containing a rolling [[air compressor]] converted to deliver gasoline from it and at least four [[9mm]] [[semi-automatic handgun]]s. Moments after the door opened, Pardo pulled out the handguns and immediately shot his 8-year-old niece Katrina Yuzefpolsky, the daughter of Leticia Yuzefpolsky, a sister of Sylvia Pardo, as she ran to greet him, injuring her in the face.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/New-Information-in-Christmas-Eve-Rampage.html |title=Santa" Gunman Planned to Escape to Canada, Police Say|publisher=[[NBC]]'|date=December 26, 2008}}</ref> He then fired indiscriminately at fleeing party-goers. Police speculate that Pardo may have stood over and [[execution-style|pointedly executed]] some of the victims, using the other handguns.<ref name="LATIMES2" /><br />
<br />
After opening fire with the handguns, Pardo unwrapped the package containing the compressor and used it to spray gasoline to set the home ablaze.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/25/santa.shooting/index.html?iref=mpstoryview|title=Cops: Suspect in Santa massacre had planned to flee|publisher=CNN|date=December 26, 2008 | accessdate=April 30, 2010}}</ref><ref name="CNN">{{cite news|url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/25/santa.shooting/index.html?iref=mpstoryview|title=Suspected Santa gunman takes life; 8 others dead|publisher=[[CNN]]|date=December 26, 2008 | accessdate=April 30, 2010}}</ref> Nine people died from either gunfire or flames, and three others were wounded: Yuzefpolsky was shot in the face with severe but non-life-threatening injuries, a 16-year-old girl shot and wounded in the back, and a 20-year-old woman who suffered a broken ankle jumping out of the second-floor window.<ref name="CNN" /><ref name="FOXNEWS" /> One survivor escaped during the attack and ran to a neighbor's house where they called authorities.<ref name="THEAGE">{{cite news|url=<br />
http://www.theage.com.au/world/emergency-call-reveals-terror-of-santa-gunmans-rampage-20081227-75vl.html?page=-1|title=Emergency call reveals terror of 'Santa' gunman's rampage|publisher=[[The Age]]|date=December 28, 2008 | location=Melbourne | first=California | last=Covina}}</ref> The resulting fire soared approximately {{convert|40|to|50|ft}} and took 80 [[firefighter]]s an hour-and-a-half to extinguish. Due to the intensity of the fire, identification of the victims was done with [[dental record|dental]] and [[medical record]]s.<br />
<br />
After setting the home on fire, Pardo put on his street clothes and drove his [[Dodge Caliber]] rental car to his brother's house in [[Sylmar, California|Sylmar]] about 30 miles away from the crime scene, where he was later found dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.<ref name="LATIMES2" /> His brother was not present in the home at the time of Pardo's death.<ref name="CNN" /> It was initially believed that Pardo intended to flee to Canada by plane since he had bought an airline ticket for a flight on [[Air Canada]].{{citation needed|date=May 2016}} However, it was subsequently discovered that the flight itinerary, on [[Northwest Airlines]], was from Los Angeles to [[Moline, Illinois|Moline]], [[Illinois]] (with a layover in [[Minnesota]]). Pardo had called days before to tell a high school friend that he was planning to visit but investigators were unsure if he actually intended to visit or if the flight was to fool investigators.<ref name="latone">{{cite news |last=Abdollah |first=Tami |date=July 11, 2009 |title=Inside the mind of a killer 'Santa' |work=Los Angeles Times |url=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa11-2009jul11,0,3575623.story}}</ref> He had visited the friend before in October 2008. Other reports stated that the Santa suit had melted during the flamethrower portion of the attack and had adhered to his skin so not all of it could be removed.<br />
<br />
However, suffering from severe [[third-degree burn]]s on his arms stemming from the blaze, Pardo decided to go against the initial plan.<ref name="LATIMES2" /><ref name="CNN" /> Police found [[$]]17,000 in cash [[cling wrap|cling-wrapped]] on his legs inside a [[girdle]]. His rental car, parked one block from his brother's house, had remnants of his Santa suit. Also recovered from the scene were four 13-[[Cartridge (firearms)|round]] capacity handguns that were empty, and at least 200 rounds of ammunition.<ref name="LATIMES2">{{cite news|url=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa-shooting27-2008dec27,0,7291873.story|title=Covina gunman planned to flee the country, police say|work=Los Angeles Times|date=December 26, 2008 | first1=Tami | last1=Abdollah | first2=Ari B. | last2=Bloomekatz | first3=Hector | last3=Becerra}}</ref> Suggesting that what had been inside the car was being treated as a threat, a [[bomb squad]] while attempting to remove a portion of the Santa suit with a robot, accidentally started a fire in the vehicle, burning and destroying it.<ref name="FOXNEWS">{{cite news|url= http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473024,00.html|title='Santa' Gunman Intended to Flee to Canada, Killed Self After Suffering Burns|work=[[FoxNews]]|date=December 26, 2008}}</ref> At Pardo's house in [[Montrose, California|Montrose]], police had recovered five empty boxes for semiautomatic handguns, a [[Benelli M2|Benelli M2 Tactical]] [[shotgun]] and a container for high-[[octane]] fuel tank gasoline. They also found what was described as a "virtual bomb factory" in his home.<ref name="CNN" /><br />
<br />
===Victims===<br />
At least three victims' deaths were caused by gunshot wounds alone, while four others died from a combination of both gunshot wounds and fire. Two other deaths stemmed from the fire alone. Some of the bodies were burned and had to be identified by dental records.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstories/?Coroner--2-Christmas-Eve-Massacre-Victim=1&blockID=170714&feedID=1198|title=Coroner: 2 Christmas Eve Massacre Victims Died in Fire, Not Shooting|publisher=[[KTLA]]|date=January 2, 2008}}</ref> At least thirteen children were orphaned after the massacre, and two others lost one parent.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-santa-shooting29-2008dec29-story.html|title=Concern grows for young survivors of Covina shooting victims|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]|date=December 29, 2008}}</ref> The victims include: <br />
{| border="1" class="wikitable"<br />
!width="200"|Name<br />
!Age<br />
!width="200"|Relationship<br />
!width="200"|Cause of death<br />
|-<br />
|Sylvia Ortega Pardo || 43 || Ex-wife || Gunshot wound<ref name="Coroner IDs last 2 Covina massacre victims">[http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/Jan/14/ca-santa-shooting-011409/ "Coroner IDs last 2 Covina massacre victims"]</ref><br />
|- <br />
|Alicia Sotomayor Ortega || 70 || Mother-in-law || Gunshot wound to the abdomen<ref name="Coroner IDs 6 killed in massacre: Three still unidentified after attack on Christmas Eve.">{{Cite web |url=http://articles.southbendtribune.com/2009-01-04/news/26742389_1_alicia-ortega-charles-ortega-alicia-ortiz |title=Coroner IDs 6 killed in massacre: Three still unidentified after attack on Christmas Eve. |access-date=March 21, 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160126095722/http://articles.southbendtribune.com/2009-01-04/news/26742389_1_alicia-ortega-charles-ortega-alicia-ortiz |archive-date=January 26, 2016 |url-status=dead }}</ref><br />
|- <br />
|Joseph S. Ortega || 79 || Father-in-law || Multiple gunshot wounds<ref name="Coroner IDs 6 killed in massacre: Three still unidentified after attack on Christmas Eve."/><br />
|-<br />
|Charles Ortega || 50 || Brother-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|Cheri Lynn Ortega || 45 || Sister-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|James Ortega || 52 || Brother-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|Teresa Ortega || 52 || Sister-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|Alicia Ortega Ortiz || 46 || Sister-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|Michael Andre Ortiz || 17 || Nephew || Died in the fire<ref name="Coroner IDs last 2 Covina massacre victims"/><br />
|}<br />
<br />
== Motivation==<br />
Pardo lived in the [[San Fernando Valley]] and was a graduate of [[John H. Francis Polytechnic High School]] in [[Sun Valley, Los Angeles]], and [[California State University, Northridge]]. He had worked at the [[Jet Propulsion Laboratory]] in [[La Cañada Flintridge, California|La Cañada Flintridge]]. In 2004, he met Sylvia Pardo (nee Ortega).<ref name="latone" /><br />
<br />
Police speculate that the motive of Pardo's attack was related to marital problems. After the couple wed in January 2006, their marriage quickly fell apart within the first year because Pardo refused to open a joint bank account with Sylvia; he also expected his wife to use her own finances to take care of her own three children. There is some speculation that the divorce may have also been caused by Pardo concealing a child from a previous relationship. This child had been severely injured in a swimming pool accident several years prior for which Pardo did not pay child or spousal support.<ref name="AP" /><br />
<br />
In June 2008, a divorce court ordered Pardo to pay $1,785 a month in spousal support. During the divorce proceedings, Pardo confided to a friend his wife was "taking him to the cleaners." In July, Pardo, who had no criminal record or history of violence, was fired from his job as an [[electrical engineer]] at [[ITT-Gilfillan|ITT Corporation Electronic Systems Radar Systems]] for billing false hours. The divorce court suspended the support payments due to financial hardship.<ref name="la times">{{cite news|url=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-pardo28-2008dec28,0,7512367.story |title=Covina's 'Santa Claus' gunman|newspaper=LA Times|accessdate=22 December 2022}}</ref> However, as part of the divorce settlement, Pardo was required to pay his ex-wife $10,000, and she was permitted to keep her wedding ring and family dog. Pardo complained to the court that Sylvia was living with her parents, not paying rent, and had spent lavishly on a luxury car, gambling trips to Las Vegas, meals at expensive restaurants, massages, and golf lessons.<ref name=HP>{{cite news|last=Hoag|first=Christina|title=Bruce Jeffrey Pardo: 'Santa' Shooter Planned To Flee To Canada|url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/25/santa-shooting-kills-thre_n_153454.html?page=6&show_comment_id=19115629|newspaper=Huffington Post|date=December 26, 2008|access-date=July 5, 2022|archive-date=March 4, 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304031054/http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/25/santa-shooting-kills-thre_n_153454.html?page=6&show_comment_id=19115629|url-status=bot: unknown}}</ref> Pardo and Sylvia finalized their divorce a week prior to the attack.<ref name="CNN" /><br />
<br />
==Depiction in media==<br />
===Music===<br />
*[[Poly Styrene]], the lead singer of [[X-Ray Spex]], recorded a song in 2010 called "[[Black Christmas (song)|Black Christmas]]", which contains references to the massacre.<br />
<br />
===Film===<br />
*''[[Silent Night (2012 film)|Silent Night]]'' was partially based on the massacre. In the film, a character tells the story of a man who donned a Santa suit, and used a homemade flamethrower to attack a Christmas party being attended by his ex-wife.<br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
{{Portal|Greater Los Angeles}}<br />
*[[List of massacres in the United States]]<br />
* [[List of homicides in California]]<br />
* [[2011 Grand Rapids mass murder]]<br />
* [[2011 Seal Beach shooting]]<br />
* [[Azana Spa shooting]]<br />
* [[2014 Harris County shooting]]<br />
* [[Carthage nursing home shooting]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<br />
{{Reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
* [https://web.archive.org/web/20090326015226/http://www.sgvtribune.com/massacre Covina Holiday Murders] – ''[[San Gabriel Valley Tribune]]''<br />
* [http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-santa11-2009jul11,0,4138101.story?track=rss Inside the mind of a killer 'Santa'] – ''Los Angeles Times''<br />
<br />
{{coord|34|04|49.4|N|117|52|02.5|W|source:kolossus-ptwiki|display=title}} <br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Covina Massacre}}<br />
[[Category:2000s in Los Angeles County, California]]<br />
[[Category:Murder in Los Angeles County, California]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:2008 murders in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:December 2008 events in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Arson in California]]<br />
[[Category:Car and truck bombings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass murder in 2008]]<br />
[[Category:Mass murder in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass murder in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Murder–suicides in California]]<br />
[[Category:2008 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:History of Los Angeles County, California]]<br />
[[Category:2008 in California]]<br />
[[Category:Crimes in Los Angeles County, California]]<br />
[[Category:Attacks in the United States in 2008]]<br />
[[Category:Covina, California]]<br />
[[Category:December 2008 crimes]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Family murders]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Covina_massacre&diff=1135577369Covina massacre2023-01-25T15:02:17Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Use mdy dates|date=December 2020}}<br />
{{redirect|Sylvia Pardo|the Mexican painter|Silvia Pardo}}{{Redirect|Christmas eve massacre|the massacre in Myanmar|Mo So massacre}}{{short description|Nine people killed in the suburbs of Los Angeles, California, US}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack <br />
|title = Covina massacre<br />
|partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
|image = Bruce Jeffrey Pardo.jpg<br />
|image_size = 175px<br />
|caption = Bruce Jeffrey Pardo<br />
|location = [[Covina, California]], United States<br />
| map = {{Infobox mapframe|marker=building|zoom=14|coord={{coord|34.08050|N|117.867222|W|display=inline}}}}<br />
|target = Ex-wife and her family<br />
|date = {{start date|2008|12|24}}<br />
|time = {{circa}} 11:30 p.m.<br />
|timezone = [[UTC]]-8<br />
|type = [[Mass murder]], [[murder-suicide]], [[arson|torching]]<br />
|fatalities = 10 (including the perpetrator)<br />
|injuries = 3 (2 from gunfire)<br />
|perp = Bruce Jeffrey Pardo<br />
|weapons =<br />
* Four [[semi-automatic handgun]]s<br />
* Homemade [[flamethrower]]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
The '''Covina massacre''' was a mass murder carried out on [[Christmas Eve]] by a disgruntled ex-husband in [[Los Angeles County, California]], United States, in 2008. 45-year-old Bruce Jeffrey Pardo, a local resident who was wearing a [[Santa suit|Santa costume]], entered a property belonging to his former in-laws in [[Covina, California|Covina]] and killed nine people either by [[gunshot wound|shooting]] or [[arson]] from the fire he started. Three people, including Pardo's ex-wife and his former [[in-laws]], were declared missing pending identification of their bodies.<ref>{{cite news|url = http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-christmas-weekend-shootings-20151228-story.html|title = 6 killed, at least 23 hurt in Christmas weekend shootings|publisher = Chicago Tribune|date = December 28, 2008}}</ref> The 45-year-old killed himself with a self-inflicted gunshot to the head at his brother's residence in the early hours of [[Christmas Day]].<ref name="Frank Girardot's Crime Scene Blog">{{cite web|url=http://www.insidesocal.com/sgvcrime/2009/01/the-covina-massacre.html |title=Frank Girardot's Crime Scene blog|website=www.insidesocal.com|accessdate=22 December 2022}}</ref> At the time, the incident was the deadliest mass shooting in Los Angeles County history, being surpassed 14 years later by the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]].<ref>{{cite news |last1=Lin |first1=Summer |last2=Winton |first2=Richard |last3=Ellis |first3=Rebecca |last4=Park |first4=Jeong |last5=Jany |first5=Libor |last6=Lin II |first6=Rong-Gong |last7=Wick |first7=Julia |last8=Smith |first8=Hayley |last9=Truong |first9=Debbie |last10=Toohey |first10=Gracey |last11=Newberry |first11=Laura |title=Authorities Identify 72-Year-Old Man As Suspected Gunman in Lunar New Year Mass Shooting |url=https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-01-22/la-me-monterey-park-mass-shooting |access-date=January 23, 2023 |work=Los Angeles Times |date=January 22, 2023}}</ref><br />
<br />
Police speculated that Pardo's divorce, which had been finalized on December 18 only one week before the killings, was a significant factor for the violence and why Pardo had entered the home on 1129 East Knollcrest Drive during a Christmas Eve party and killed his ex-wife and her relatives.<ref name="AP">{{cite web|url=https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_us/santa_shooting|title=Santa gunman was in bitter divorce, lost job|publisher=[[Associated Press]]|date=December 26, 2008}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|url= https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/us/27shooting.html?ref=us|title=9th Body Found in California Attack|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=December 26, 2008 | first1=Solomon | last1=Moore | first2=Anahad | last2=O'Connor | accessdate=April 30, 2010}}</ref><br />
<br />
==Killings==<br />
At approximately 11:30&nbsp;p.m. PST, 45-year-old Bruce Jeffrey Pardo (March 23, 1963 – December 25, 2008), dressed in a Santa Claus suit, knocked on the door of his former in-laws' house, occupied by about 25 people, with a [[giftwrap|gift-wrapped]] package containing a rolling [[air compressor]] converted to deliver gasoline from it and at least four [[9mm]] [[semi-automatic handgun]]s. Moments after the door opened, Pardo pulled out the handguns and immediately shot his 8-year-old niece Katrina Yuzefpolsky, the daughter of Leticia Yuzefpolsky, a sister of Sylvia Pardo, as she ran to greet him, injuring her in the face.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/New-Information-in-Christmas-Eve-Rampage.html |title=Santa" Gunman Planned to Escape to Canada, Police Say|publisher=[[NBC]]'|date=December 26, 2008}}</ref> He then fired indiscriminately at fleeing party-goers. Police speculate that Pardo may have stood over and [[execution-style|pointedly executed]] some of the victims, using the other handguns.<ref name="LATIMES2" /><br />
<br />
After opening fire with the handguns, Pardo unwrapped the package containing the compressor and used it to spray gasoline to set the home ablaze.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/25/santa.shooting/index.html?iref=mpstoryview|title=Cops: Suspect in Santa massacre had planned to flee|publisher=CNN|date=December 26, 2008 | accessdate=April 30, 2010}}</ref><ref name="CNN">{{cite news|url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/25/santa.shooting/index.html?iref=mpstoryview|title=Suspected Santa gunman takes life; 8 others dead|publisher=[[CNN]]|date=December 26, 2008 | accessdate=April 30, 2010}}</ref> Nine people died from either gunfire or flames, and three others were wounded: Yuzefpolsky was shot in the face with severe but non-life-threatening injuries, a 16-year-old girl shot and wounded in the back, and a 20-year-old woman who suffered a broken ankle jumping out of the second-floor window.<ref name="CNN" /><ref name="FOXNEWS" /> One survivor escaped during the attack and ran to a neighbor's house where they called authorities.<ref name="THEAGE">{{cite news|url=<br />
http://www.theage.com.au/world/emergency-call-reveals-terror-of-santa-gunmans-rampage-20081227-75vl.html?page=-1|title=Emergency call reveals terror of 'Santa' gunman's rampage|publisher=[[The Age]]|date=December 28, 2008 | location=Melbourne | first=California | last=Covina}}</ref> The resulting fire soared approximately {{convert|40|to|50|ft}} and took 80 [[firefighter]]s an hour-and-a-half to extinguish. Due to the intensity of the fire, identification of the victims was done with [[dental record|dental]] and [[medical record]]s.<br />
<br />
After setting the home on fire, Pardo put on his street clothes and drove his [[Dodge Caliber]] rental car to his brother's house in [[Sylmar, California|Sylmar]] about 30 miles away from the crime scene, where he was later found dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.<ref name="LATIMES2" /> His brother was not present in the home at the time of Pardo's death.<ref name="CNN" /> It was initially believed that Pardo intended to flee to Canada by plane since he had bought an airline ticket for a flight on [[Air Canada]].{{citation needed|date=May 2016}} However, it was subsequently discovered that the flight itinerary, on [[Northwest Airlines]], was from Los Angeles to [[Moline, Illinois|Moline]], [[Illinois]] (with a layover in [[Minnesota]]). Pardo had called days before to tell a high school friend that he was planning to visit but investigators were unsure if he actually intended to visit or if the flight was to fool investigators.<ref name="latone">{{cite news |last=Abdollah |first=Tami |date=July 11, 2009 |title=Inside the mind of a killer 'Santa' |work=Los Angeles Times |url=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa11-2009jul11,0,3575623.story}}</ref> He had visited the friend before in October 2008. Other reports stated that the Santa suit had melted during the flamethrower portion of the attack and had adhered to his skin so not all of it could be removed.<br />
<br />
However, suffering from severe [[third-degree burn]]s on his arms stemming from the blaze, Pardo decided to go against the initial plan.<ref name="LATIMES2" /><ref name="CNN" /> Police found [[$]]17,000 in cash [[cling wrap|cling-wrapped]] on his legs inside a [[girdle]]. His rental car, parked one block from his brother's house, had remnants of his Santa suit. Also recovered from the scene were four 13-[[Cartridge (firearms)|round]] capacity handguns that were empty, and at least 200 rounds of ammunition.<ref name="LATIMES2">{{cite news|url=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa-shooting27-2008dec27,0,7291873.story|title=Covina gunman planned to flee the country, police say|work=Los Angeles Times|date=December 26, 2008 | first1=Tami | last1=Abdollah | first2=Ari B. | last2=Bloomekatz | first3=Hector | last3=Becerra}}</ref> Suggesting that what had been inside the car was being treated as a threat, a [[bomb squad]] while attempting to remove a portion of the Santa suit with a robot, accidentally started a fire in the vehicle, burning and destroying it.<ref name="FOXNEWS">{{cite news|url= http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473024,00.html|title='Santa' Gunman Intended to Flee to Canada, Killed Self After Suffering Burns|work=[[FoxNews]]|date=December 26, 2008}}</ref> At Pardo's house in [[Montrose, California|Montrose]], police had recovered five empty boxes for semiautomatic handguns, a [[Benelli M2|Benelli M2 Tactical]] [[shotgun]] and a container for high-[[octane]] fuel tank gasoline. They also found what was described as a "virtual bomb factory" in his home.<ref name="CNN" /><br />
<br />
===Victims===<br />
At least three victims' deaths were caused by gunshot wounds alone, while four others died from a combination of both gunshot wounds and fire. Two other deaths stemmed from the fire alone. Some of the bodies were burned and had to be identified by dental records.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstories/?Coroner--2-Christmas-Eve-Massacre-Victim=1&blockID=170714&feedID=1198|title=Coroner: 2 Christmas Eve Massacre Victims Died in Fire, Not Shooting|publisher=[[KTLA]]|date=January 2, 2008}}</ref> At least thirteen children were orphaned after the massacre, and two others lost one parent.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-santa-shooting29-2008dec29-story.html|title=Concern grows for young survivors of Covina shooting victims|work=[[Los Angeles Times]]|date=December 29, 2008}}</ref> The victims include: <br />
{| border="1" class="wikitable"<br />
!width="200"|Name<br />
!Age<br />
!width="200"|Relationship<br />
!width="200"|Cause of death<br />
|-<br />
|Sylvia Ortega Pardo || 43 || Ex-wife || Gunshot wound<ref name="Coroner IDs last 2 Covina massacre victims">[http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/Jan/14/ca-santa-shooting-011409/ "Coroner IDs last 2 Covina massacre victims"]</ref><br />
|- <br />
|Alicia Sotomayor Ortega || 70 || Mother-in-law || Gunshot wound to the abdomen<ref name="Coroner IDs 6 killed in massacre: Three still unidentified after attack on Christmas Eve.">{{Cite web |url=http://articles.southbendtribune.com/2009-01-04/news/26742389_1_alicia-ortega-charles-ortega-alicia-ortiz |title=Coroner IDs 6 killed in massacre: Three still unidentified after attack on Christmas Eve. |access-date=March 21, 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160126095722/http://articles.southbendtribune.com/2009-01-04/news/26742389_1_alicia-ortega-charles-ortega-alicia-ortiz |archive-date=January 26, 2016 |url-status=dead }}</ref><br />
|- <br />
|Joseph S. Ortega || 79 || Father-in-law || Multiple gunshot wounds<ref name="Coroner IDs 6 killed in massacre: Three still unidentified after attack on Christmas Eve."/><br />
|-<br />
|Charles Ortega || 50 || Brother-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|Cheri Lynn Ortega || 45 || Sister-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|James Ortega || 52 || Brother-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|Teresa Ortega || 52 || Sister-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|Alicia Ortega Ortiz || 46 || Sister-in-law ||<br />
|-<br />
|Michael Andre Ortiz || 17 || Nephew || Died in the fire<ref name="Coroner IDs last 2 Covina massacre victims"/><br />
|}<br />
<br />
== Motivation==<br />
Pardo lived in the [[San Fernando Valley]] and was a graduate of [[John H. Francis Polytechnic High School]] in [[Sun Valley, Los Angeles]], and [[California State University, Northridge]]. He had worked at the [[Jet Propulsion Laboratory]] in [[La Cañada Flintridge, California|La Cañada Flintridge]]. In 2004, he met Sylvia Pardo (nee Ortega).<ref name="latone" /><br />
<br />
Police speculate that the motive of Pardo's attack was related to marital problems. After the couple wed in January 2006, their marriage quickly fell apart within the first year because Pardo refused to open a joint bank account with Sylvia; he also expected his wife to use her own finances to take care of her own three children. There is some speculation that the divorce may have also been caused by Pardo concealing a child from a previous relationship. This child had been severely injured in a swimming pool accident several years prior for which Pardo did not pay child or spousal support.<ref name="AP" /><br />
<br />
In June 2008, a divorce court ordered Pardo to pay $1,785 a month in spousal support. During the divorce proceedings, Pardo confided to a friend his wife was "taking him to the cleaners." In July, Pardo, who had no criminal record or history of violence, was fired from his job as an [[electrical engineer]] at [[ITT-Gilfillan|ITT Corporation Electronic Systems Radar Systems]] for billing false hours. The divorce court suspended the support payments due to financial hardship.<ref name="la times">{{cite news|url=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-pardo28-2008dec28,0,7512367.story |title=Covina's 'Santa Claus' gunman|newspaper=LA Times|accessdate=22 December 2022}}</ref> However, as part of the divorce settlement, Pardo was required to pay his ex-wife $10,000, and she was permitted to keep her wedding ring and family dog. Pardo complained to the court that Sylvia was living with her parents, not paying rent, and had spent lavishly on a luxury car, gambling trips to Las Vegas, meals at expensive restaurants, massages, and golf lessons.<ref name=HP>{{cite news|last=Hoag|first=Christina|title=Bruce Jeffrey Pardo: 'Santa' Shooter Planned To Flee To Canada|url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/25/santa-shooting-kills-thre_n_153454.html?page=6&show_comment_id=19115629|newspaper=Huffington Post|date=December 26, 2008|access-date=July 5, 2022|archive-date=March 4, 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304031054/http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/25/santa-shooting-kills-thre_n_153454.html?page=6&show_comment_id=19115629|url-status=bot: unknown}}</ref> Pardo and Sylvia finalized their divorce a week prior to the attack.<ref name="CNN" /><br />
<br />
==Depiction in media==<br />
===Music===<br />
*[[Poly Styrene]], the lead singer of [[X-Ray Spex]], recorded a song in 2010 called "[[Black Christmas (song)|Black Christmas]]", which contains references to the massacre.<br />
<br />
===Film===<br />
*''[[Silent Night (2012 film)|Silent Night]]'' was partially based on the massacre. In the film, a character tells the story of a man who donned a Santa suit, and used a homemade flamethrower to attack a Christmas party being attended by his ex-wife.<br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
{{Portal|Greater Los Angeles}}<br />
*[[List of massacres in the United States]]<br />
* [[List of homicides in California]]<br />
* [[2011 Grand Rapids mass murder]]<br />
* [[2011 Seal Beach shooting]]<br />
* [[Azana Spa shooting]]<br />
* [[2014 Harris County shooting]]<br />
* [[Carthage nursing home shooting]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<br />
{{Reflist|2}}<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
* [https://web.archive.org/web/20090326015226/http://www.sgvtribune.com/massacre Covina Holiday Murders] – ''[[San Gabriel Valley Tribune]]''<br />
* [http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-santa11-2009jul11,0,4138101.story?track=rss Inside the mind of a killer 'Santa'] – ''Los Angeles Times''<br />
<br />
{{coord|34|04|49.4|N|117|52|02.5|W|source:kolossus-ptwiki|display=title}} <br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Covina Massacre}}<br />
[[Category:2000s in Los Angeles County, California]]<br />
[[Category:Murder in Los Angeles County, California]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:2008 murders in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:December 2008 events in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Arson in California]]<br />
[[Category:Car and truck bombings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass murder in 2008]]<br />
[[Category:Mass murder in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass murder in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Murder–suicides in California]]<br />
[[Category:2008 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:History of Los Angeles County, California]]<br />
[[Category:2008 in California]]<br />
[[Category:Crimes in Los Angeles County, California]]<br />
[[Category:Attacks in the United States in 2008]]<br />
[[Category:Covina, California]]<br />
[[Category:December 2008 crimes]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Family murders]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11355103992023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-25T02:36:00Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Suspect */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|Mass shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = File:San Mateo County California Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Half Moon Bay Highlighted 0631708.svg<br />
| image_size =<br />
| image_upright =<br />
| alt =<br />
| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
| map = {{OSM Location map<br />
| nolabels = 1<br />
| coord = {{coord|37.46|-122.40}}<br />
| zoom = 12<br />
| float = center<br />
| width = 300<br />
| height = 240<br />
| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
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| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
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| type = [[Mass shooting]], [[workplace violence]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
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<br />
On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two nearby farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven people and critically injuring an eighth person. A suspect, identified as 66-year-old resident Chunli Zhao, was taken into custody after he arrived in his SUV at the San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation in the city. The suspect lived and worked at the first scene.<br />
<br />
== Shootings ==<br />
<br />
At 2:22 pm [[Pacific Standard Time|PST]], first responders were notified of a shooting at Mountain Mushroom Farm in [[Half Moon Bay, California|Half Moon Bay]]. Upon arriving, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was transported to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] near Palo Alto, with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving at the scene, the gunman drove two miles away to Concord Farm in his maroon [[Lexus RX|Lexus RX350]], where he fatally shot three more people.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at both shooting scenes, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref><br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 pm PST, the suspect, who was identified as 66-year-old Chunli Zhao, a resident of the first farm, in Half Moon Bay,<ref name = "CNN-recap">{{cite web |url = https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/half-moon-bay-california-shooting-1-24-23/index.html |title = 7 killed in shooting in Half Moon Bay, California |website = CNN.com |author1 = Amir Vera |author2 = Aditi Sangal |author3 = Adrienne Vogt |author4 = Leinz Vales |author5 = Elise Hammond |author6 = Maureen Chowdhury |date = January 24, 2023 |access-date = January 24, 2023}}</ref> was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of Half Moon Bay's San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation at 557 Kelly Avenue.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Zhao worked at one of the farms, and the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><ref name="BBC-2023-01-24">{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124101503/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |url-status=live}}</ref> <br />
<br />
== Suspect ==<br />
The suspect was identified as a 66-year-old local resident Chunli Zhao (born 1956), a longtime farm forklift driver and former restaurant worker, and a former resident of [[San Jose, California|San Jose]]. Zhao had been a forklift driver at the Mountain Mushroom Farm beginning in December 2016.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://apnews.com/article/northern-california-shootings-3eb00c19a36ad129ca7f0063f4b2aaf9|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.apnews.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
While living in San Jose in 2012, Zhao began working at a restaurant in [[Cupertino, California|Cupertino]] with his co-worker Yingjiu Wang, who also lived in the same apartment in San Jose. On March 12, 2013, Zhao tried to suffocate Wang by using a pillow. This occurred two days after Wang filed a restraining order against Zhao. Two days later on March 14, Zhao confronted Wang inside the apartment and told Wang that if he [Zhao] couldn't return to his job, it would be a bigger problem and he would use a kitchen knife to split Wang’s head.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-once-tried-to-17738909.php|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.sfchronicle.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://nypost.com/2023/01/24/mass-shooter-suspect-chunli-zhao-once-tried-to-suffocate-former-co-worker-with-pillow-report/|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.nypost.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref> Shortly after the incident, a judge from the [[Santa Clara County, California|Santa Clara County]] Superior Court ordered Zhao to stay outside a 300-yard radius of the apartment until July of the same year. Zhao never returned.<br />
<br />
== Reactions ==<br />
<br />
In a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to help local authorities during their investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers |url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting |url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times |location=Singapore |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124084835/https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting}}</ref> [[Governor of California]] [[Gavin Newsom]] was informed of the shooting while visiting the hospitalized victims of the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting|Monterey Park shooting]] of less than 48 hours earlier, describing the two events in conjunction as "tragedy after tragedy."<ref>{{cite news |date=January 23, 2023 |title="Tragedy upon tragedy": Gov Newsom reacts to Half Moon Bay shootings that killed 7 |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |work=[[CBS Sacramento]] |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124030509/https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite tweet |last=Newsom |first=Gavin |author-link=Gavin Newsom |user=GavinNewsom |number=1617697681668984838 |date=January 24, 2023 |title=At the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when I get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. This time in Half Moon Bay. Tragedy upon tragedy. |language=English |access-date=January 24, 2023 |link=https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1617697681668984838}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]], a mass shooting that occurred two days before<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11355008852023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-25T01:09:22Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Shootings */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|Mass shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
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| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
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| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]], [[workplace violence]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
| victims = <!-- or | victim = --><br />
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<br />
On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two nearby farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven people and critically injuring an eighth person. A suspect, identified as 66-year-old resident Chunli Zhao, was taken into custody after he arrived in his SUV at the San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation in the city. The suspect lived and worked at the first scene.<br />
<br />
== Shootings ==<br />
<br />
At 2:22 pm [[Pacific Standard Time|PST]], first responders were notified of a shooting at Mountain Mushroom Farm in [[Half Moon Bay, California|Half Moon Bay]]. Upon arriving, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was transported to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] near Palo Alto, with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving at the scene, the gunman drove two miles away to Concord Farm in his maroon third-generation [[Lexus RX|Lexus RX350]], where he fatally shot three more people.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at both shooting scenes, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref><br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 pm PST, the suspect, who was identified as 66-year-old Chunli Zhao, a resident of the first farm, in Half Moon Bay,<ref name = "CNN-recap">{{cite web |url = https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/half-moon-bay-california-shooting-1-24-23/index.html |title = 7 killed in shooting in Half Moon Bay, California |website = CNN.com |author1 = Amir Vera |author2 = Aditi Sangal |author3 = Adrienne Vogt |author4 = Leinz Vales |author5 = Elise Hammond |author6 = Maureen Chowdhury |date = January 24, 2023 |access-date = January 24, 2023}}</ref> was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of Half Moon Bay's San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation at 557 Kelly Avenue.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Zhao worked at one of the farms, and the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><ref name="BBC-2023-01-24">{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124101503/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao had a history of making violent threats to his coworkers, and at one point allegedly attempted to suffocate his roommate with a pillow.<ref name=“threats”>{{Cite web|url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-chunli-zhao-history-workplace-violence-hmb/12731878/|title=Half Moon Bay shooting suspect had history of making threats to coworkers, court documents reveal|date=January 24, 2023|website=ABC7 San Francisco}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Perpetrator ==<br />
The suspect was identified as a 66-year-old local resident Chunli Zhao (born 1956), a longtime farmer, a forklift driver, a former restaurant worker, and a former resident of [[San Jose, California|San Jose]]. Zhao previously was a forklift driver at the Mountain Mushroom Farm beginning in December 2016.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://apnews.com/article/northern-california-shootings-3eb00c19a36ad129ca7f0063f4b2aaf9|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.apnews.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
While living in San Jose in 2012, Zhao began working at a restaurant in [[Cupertino, California|Cupertino]] with his co-worker Yingjiu Wang, who also lived in the same apartment in San Jose. On March 12, 2013, Zhao tried to suffocate Wang by using a pillow inside Yingjiu's room in their apartment. This occurred two days after Wang filed a restraining order against Zhao. Two days later on March 14, 2013, Zhao confronted Wang inside the apartment and told Wang that "if he wouldn't return to his job, it would be a bigger problem and he would use a kitchen knife to split Wang’s head wide open".<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-once-tried-to-17738909.php|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.sfchronicle.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://nypost.com/2023/01/24/mass-shooter-suspect-chunli-zhao-once-tried-to-suffocate-former-co-worker-with-pillow-report/|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.nypost.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref> Shortly after the incident, a judge from the [[Santa Clara County, California|Santa Clara County]] Superior Court ordered Zhao to stay away from the apartment within a 300-yard radius until July of the same year. Zhao never returned.<br />
<br />
Shortly before the shooting occurred, Zhao and his wife went back to Santa Clara County where they went to a Chinese bank to send remittances to China, located near the restaurant Zhao previously worked at.<br />
<br />
== Reactions ==<br />
<br />
In a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to help local authorities during their investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers |url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting |url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times |location=Singapore |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124084835/https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting}}</ref> [[Governor of California]] [[Gavin Newsom]] was informed of the shooting while visiting the hospitalized victims of the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting|Monterey Park shooting]] of less than 48 hours earlier, describing the two events in conjunction as "tragedy after tragedy."<ref>{{cite news |date=January 23, 2023 |title="Tragedy upon tragedy": Gov Newsom reacts to Half Moon Bay shootings that killed 7 |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |work=[[CBS Sacramento]] |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124030509/https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite tweet |last=Newsom |first=Gavin |author-link=Gavin Newsom |user=GavinNewsom |number=1617697681668984838 |date=January 24, 2023 |title=At the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when I get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. This time in Half Moon Bay. Tragedy upon tragedy. |language=English |access-date=January 24, 2023 |link=https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1617697681668984838}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]], a mass shooting that occurred two days before<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11355005952023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-25T01:06:46Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Perpetrator */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|Mass shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = File:San Mateo County California Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Half Moon Bay Highlighted 0631708.svg<br />
| image_size =<br />
| image_upright =<br />
| alt =<br />
| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
| map = {{OSM Location map<br />
| nolabels = 1<br />
| coord = {{coord|37.46|-122.40}}<br />
| zoom = 12<br />
| float = center<br />
| width = 300<br />
| height = 240<br />
| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
| minimap = <!-- Adds a 'minimap image' to the designated corner --><br />
| mini-file = USA California location map.svg<br />
| mini-width = 78 <!-- The desired size of the minimap, in pixels --><br />
|mini-height = 102 <!-- The ratio mini-width/mini-height must equal the ratio width/height of mini-file --><br />
| minipog-gx = 59 <!-- Values between 0 and 100, specifying an optional red marker's location in the minimap. --><br />
| minipog-gy = 80 <!-- Upper left is (0,0), lower right is (100,100). --><br />
<!-- first marker details --><br />
| label1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm<br />
| mark-coord1 = {{coord|37.470032|-122.419389}}<br />
| mark1 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos1 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size1 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color1 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image1 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description1=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label2 = Concord Farm<br />
| mark-coord2 = {{coord|37.437763|-122.425792}}<br />
| mark2 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos2 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size2 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color2 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title2 = Concord Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image2 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description2=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label3 = Sheriffs Department substation <br />
| mark-coord3 = {{coord|37.465543|-122.432125}}| mark3 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos3 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size3= 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color3= black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title3 = San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image3= <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description3=<!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
}}<br />
<br />
| map_size =<br />
| map_alt =<br />
| map_caption =<br />
| location = [[Half Moon Bay, California]], U.S.<br />
| target =<br />
| coordinates =<br />
| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]], [[workplace violence]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
| victims = <!-- or | victim = --><br />
| perpetrators =<br />
| assailants = <!-- or | assailant = --><br />
| weapon = [[Semi-automatic pistol]]<br />
| numparts = <!-- or | numpart = --><br />
| dfens = <!-- or | dfen = --><br />
| motive = <br />
| inquiry =<br />
| coroner =<br />
| accused = Chunli Zhao<br />
| convicted =<br />
| verdict =<br />
| convictions =<br />
| charges =<br />
| litigation =<br />
| judge =<br />
| website = <!-- {{URL|example.com}} --><br />
| module =<br />
}}<br />
<br />
On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two nearby farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven people and critically injuring an eighth person. A suspect, identified as 66-year-old resident Chunli Zhao, was taken into custody after he arrived in his SUV at the San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation in the city. The suspect lived and worked at the first scene.<br />
<br />
== Shootings ==<br />
<br />
At 2:22 pm [[Pacific Standard Time|PST]], first responders were notified of a shooting at Mountain Mushroom Farm in [[Half Moon Bay, California|Half Moon Bay]]. Upon arriving, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was transported to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] near Palo Alto, with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving at the scene, the gunman drove two miles away to Concord Farm in his maroon Lexus [[SUV]], where he fatally shot three more people.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at both shooting scenes, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref><br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 pm PST, the suspect, who was identified as 66-year-old Chunli Zhao, a resident of the first farm, in Half Moon Bay,<ref name = "CNN-recap">{{cite web |url = https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/half-moon-bay-california-shooting-1-24-23/index.html |title = 7 killed in shooting in Half Moon Bay, California |website = CNN.com |author1 = Amir Vera |author2 = Aditi Sangal |author3 = Adrienne Vogt |author4 = Leinz Vales |author5 = Elise Hammond |author6 = Maureen Chowdhury |date = January 24, 2023 |access-date = January 24, 2023}}</ref> was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of Half Moon Bay's San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation at 557 Kelly Avenue.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Zhao worked at one of the farms, and the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><ref name="BBC-2023-01-24">{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124101503/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao had a history of making violent threats to his coworkers, and at one point allegedly attempted to suffocate his roommate with a pillow.<ref name=“threats”>{{Cite web|url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-chunli-zhao-history-workplace-violence-hmb/12731878/|title=Half Moon Bay shooting suspect had history of making threats to coworkers, court documents reveal|date=January 24, 2023|website=ABC7 San Francisco}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Perpetrator ==<br />
The suspect was identified as a 66-year-old local resident Chunli Zhao (born 1956), a longtime farmer, a forklift driver, a former restaurant worker, and a former resident of [[San Jose, California|San Jose]]. Zhao previously was a forklift driver at the Mountain Mushroom Farm beginning in December 2016.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://apnews.com/article/northern-california-shootings-3eb00c19a36ad129ca7f0063f4b2aaf9|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.apnews.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
While living in San Jose in 2012, Zhao began working at a restaurant in [[Cupertino, California|Cupertino]] with his co-worker Yingjiu Wang, who also lived in the same apartment in San Jose. On March 12, 2013, Zhao tried to suffocate Wang by using a pillow inside Yingjiu's room in their apartment. This occurred two days after Wang filed a restraining order against Zhao. Two days later on March 14, 2013, Zhao confronted Wang inside the apartment and told Wang that "if he wouldn't return to his job, it would be a bigger problem and he would use a kitchen knife to split Wang’s head wide open".<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-once-tried-to-17738909.php|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.sfchronicle.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://nypost.com/2023/01/24/mass-shooter-suspect-chunli-zhao-once-tried-to-suffocate-former-co-worker-with-pillow-report/|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.nypost.com|language=en-US|url-status=live}}</ref> Shortly after the incident, a judge from the [[Santa Clara County, California|Santa Clara County]] Superior Court ordered Zhao to stay away from the apartment within a 300-yard radius until July of the same year. Zhao never returned.<br />
<br />
Shortly before the shooting occurred, Zhao and his wife went back to Santa Clara County where they went to a Chinese bank to send remittances to China, located near the restaurant Zhao previously worked at.<br />
<br />
== Reactions ==<br />
<br />
In a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to help local authorities during their investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers |url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting |url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times |location=Singapore |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124084835/https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting}}</ref> [[Governor of California]] [[Gavin Newsom]] was informed of the shooting while visiting the hospitalized victims of the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting|Monterey Park shooting]] of less than 48 hours earlier, describing the two events in conjunction as "tragedy after tragedy."<ref>{{cite news |date=January 23, 2023 |title="Tragedy upon tragedy": Gov Newsom reacts to Half Moon Bay shootings that killed 7 |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |work=[[CBS Sacramento]] |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124030509/https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite tweet |last=Newsom |first=Gavin |author-link=Gavin Newsom |user=GavinNewsom |number=1617697681668984838 |date=January 24, 2023 |title=At the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when I get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. This time in Half Moon Bay. Tragedy upon tragedy. |language=English |access-date=January 24, 2023 |link=https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1617697681668984838}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]], a mass shooting that occurred two days before<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11355002662023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-25T01:04:20Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Perpetrator */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|Mass shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = File:San Mateo County California Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Half Moon Bay Highlighted 0631708.svg<br />
| image_size =<br />
| image_upright =<br />
| alt =<br />
| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
| map = {{OSM Location map<br />
| nolabels = 1<br />
| coord = {{coord|37.46|-122.40}}<br />
| zoom = 12<br />
| float = center<br />
| width = 300<br />
| height = 240<br />
| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
| minimap = <!-- Adds a 'minimap image' to the designated corner --><br />
| mini-file = USA California location map.svg<br />
| mini-width = 78 <!-- The desired size of the minimap, in pixels --><br />
|mini-height = 102 <!-- The ratio mini-width/mini-height must equal the ratio width/height of mini-file --><br />
| minipog-gx = 59 <!-- Values between 0 and 100, specifying an optional red marker's location in the minimap. --><br />
| minipog-gy = 80 <!-- Upper left is (0,0), lower right is (100,100). --><br />
<!-- first marker details --><br />
| label1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm<br />
| mark-coord1 = {{coord|37.470032|-122.419389}}<br />
| mark1 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos1 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size1 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color1 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image1 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description1=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label2 = Concord Farm<br />
| mark-coord2 = {{coord|37.437763|-122.425792}}<br />
| mark2 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos2 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size2 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color2 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title2 = Concord Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image2 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description2=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label3 = Sheriffs Department substation <br />
| mark-coord3 = {{coord|37.465543|-122.432125}}| mark3 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos3 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size3= 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color3= black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title3 = San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image3= <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description3=<!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
}}<br />
<br />
| map_size =<br />
| map_alt =<br />
| map_caption =<br />
| location = [[Half Moon Bay, California]], U.S.<br />
| target =<br />
| coordinates =<br />
| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]], [[workplace violence]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
| victims = <!-- or | victim = --><br />
| perpetrators =<br />
| assailants = <!-- or | assailant = --><br />
| weapon = [[Semi-automatic pistol]]<br />
| numparts = <!-- or | numpart = --><br />
| dfens = <!-- or | dfen = --><br />
| motive = <br />
| inquiry =<br />
| coroner =<br />
| accused = Chunli Zhao<br />
| convicted =<br />
| verdict =<br />
| convictions =<br />
| charges =<br />
| litigation =<br />
| judge =<br />
| website = <!-- {{URL|example.com}} --><br />
| module =<br />
}}<br />
<br />
On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two nearby farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven people and critically injuring an eighth person. A suspect, identified as 66-year-old resident Chunli Zhao, was taken into custody after he arrived in his SUV at the San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation in the city. The suspect lived and worked at the first scene.<br />
<br />
== Shootings ==<br />
<br />
At 2:22 pm [[Pacific Standard Time|PST]], first responders were notified of a shooting at Mountain Mushroom Farm in [[Half Moon Bay, California|Half Moon Bay]]. Upon arriving, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was transported to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] near Palo Alto, with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving at the scene, the gunman drove two miles away to Concord Farm in his maroon Lexus [[SUV]], where he fatally shot three more people.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at both shooting scenes, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref><br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 pm PST, the suspect, who was identified as 66-year-old Chunli Zhao, a resident of the first farm, in Half Moon Bay,<ref name = "CNN-recap">{{cite web |url = https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/half-moon-bay-california-shooting-1-24-23/index.html |title = 7 killed in shooting in Half Moon Bay, California |website = CNN.com |author1 = Amir Vera |author2 = Aditi Sangal |author3 = Adrienne Vogt |author4 = Leinz Vales |author5 = Elise Hammond |author6 = Maureen Chowdhury |date = January 24, 2023 |access-date = January 24, 2023}}</ref> was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of Half Moon Bay's San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation at 557 Kelly Avenue.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Zhao worked at one of the farms, and the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><ref name="BBC-2023-01-24">{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124101503/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao had a history of making violent threats to his coworkers, and at one point allegedly attempted to suffocate his roommate with a pillow.<ref name=“threats”>{{Cite web|url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-chunli-zhao-history-workplace-violence-hmb/12731878/|title=Half Moon Bay shooting suspect had history of making threats to coworkers, court documents reveal|date=January 24, 2023|website=ABC7 San Francisco}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Perpetrator ==<br />
The suspect was identified as a 66-year-old local resident Chunli Zhao (born 1956), a longtime farmer, a forklift driver, a former restaurant worker, and a former resident of [[San Jose, California|San Jose]]. Zhao previously was a forklift driver at the Mountain Mushroom Farm beginning in December 2016.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://apnews.com/article/northern-california-shootings-3eb00c19a36ad129ca7f0063f4b2aaf9|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.apnews.com|language=en-US||url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
While living in San Jose in 2012, Zhao began working at a restaurant in [[Cupertino, California|Cupertino]] with his co-worker Yingjiu Wang, who also lived in the same apartment in San Jose. On March 12, 2013, Zhao tried to suffocate Wang by using a pillow inside Yingjiu's room in their apartment. This occurred two days after Wang filed a restraining order against Zhao. Two days later on March 14, 2013, Zhao confronted Wang inside the apartment and told Wang that "if he wouldn't return to his job, it would be a bigger problem and he would use a kitchen knife to split Wang’s head wide open".<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-once-tried-to-17738909.php|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.sfchronicle.com|language=en-US||url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://nypost.com/2023/01/24/mass-shooter-suspect-chunli-zhao-once-tried-to-suffocate-former-co-worker-with-pillow-report/|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.nypost.com|language=en-US||url-status=live}}</ref> Shortly after the incident, a judge from the [[Santa Clara County, California|Santa Clara County]] Superior Court ordered Zhao to stay away from the apartment within a 300-yard radius until July of the same year. Zhao never returned.<br />
<br />
Shortly before the shooting occurred, Zhao and his wife went back to Santa Clara County where they went to a Chinese bank to send remittances to China, located near the restaurant Zhao previously worked at.<br />
<br />
== Reactions ==<br />
<br />
In a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to help local authorities during their investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers |url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting |url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times |location=Singapore |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124084835/https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting}}</ref> [[Governor of California]] [[Gavin Newsom]] was informed of the shooting while visiting the hospitalized victims of the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting|Monterey Park shooting]] of less than 48 hours earlier, describing the two events in conjunction as "tragedy after tragedy."<ref>{{cite news |date=January 23, 2023 |title="Tragedy upon tragedy": Gov Newsom reacts to Half Moon Bay shootings that killed 7 |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |work=[[CBS Sacramento]] |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124030509/https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite tweet |last=Newsom |first=Gavin |author-link=Gavin Newsom |user=GavinNewsom |number=1617697681668984838 |date=January 24, 2023 |title=At the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when I get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. This time in Half Moon Bay. Tragedy upon tragedy. |language=English |access-date=January 24, 2023 |link=https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1617697681668984838}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]], a mass shooting that occurred two days before<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11355000772023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-25T01:02:51Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Shootings */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|Mass shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = File:San Mateo County California Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Half Moon Bay Highlighted 0631708.svg<br />
| image_size =<br />
| image_upright =<br />
| alt =<br />
| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
| map = {{OSM Location map<br />
| nolabels = 1<br />
| coord = {{coord|37.46|-122.40}}<br />
| zoom = 12<br />
| float = center<br />
| width = 300<br />
| height = 240<br />
| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
| minimap = <!-- Adds a 'minimap image' to the designated corner --><br />
| mini-file = USA California location map.svg<br />
| mini-width = 78 <!-- The desired size of the minimap, in pixels --><br />
|mini-height = 102 <!-- The ratio mini-width/mini-height must equal the ratio width/height of mini-file --><br />
| minipog-gx = 59 <!-- Values between 0 and 100, specifying an optional red marker's location in the minimap. --><br />
| minipog-gy = 80 <!-- Upper left is (0,0), lower right is (100,100). --><br />
<!-- first marker details --><br />
| label1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm<br />
| mark-coord1 = {{coord|37.470032|-122.419389}}<br />
| mark1 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos1 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size1 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color1 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image1 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description1=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label2 = Concord Farm<br />
| mark-coord2 = {{coord|37.437763|-122.425792}}<br />
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| label-size2 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
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| mark-title2 = Concord Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image2 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description2=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label3 = Sheriffs Department substation <br />
| mark-coord3 = {{coord|37.465543|-122.432125}}| mark3 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos3 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size3= 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
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| mark-title3 = San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image3= <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description3=<!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
}}<br />
<br />
| map_size =<br />
| map_alt =<br />
| map_caption =<br />
| location = [[Half Moon Bay, California]], U.S.<br />
| target =<br />
| coordinates =<br />
| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]], [[workplace violence]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
| victims = <!-- or | victim = --><br />
| perpetrators =<br />
| assailants = <!-- or | assailant = --><br />
| weapon = [[Semi-automatic pistol]]<br />
| numparts = <!-- or | numpart = --><br />
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| motive = <br />
| inquiry =<br />
| coroner =<br />
| accused = Chunli Zhao<br />
| convicted =<br />
| verdict =<br />
| convictions =<br />
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| website = <!-- {{URL|example.com}} --><br />
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}}<br />
<br />
On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two nearby farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven people and critically injuring an eighth person. A suspect, identified as 66-year-old resident Chunli Zhao, was taken into custody after he arrived in his SUV at the San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation in the city. The suspect lived and worked at the first scene.<br />
<br />
== Shootings ==<br />
<br />
At 2:22 pm [[Pacific Standard Time|PST]], first responders were notified of a shooting at Mountain Mushroom Farm in [[Half Moon Bay, California|Half Moon Bay]]. Upon arriving, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was transported to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] near Palo Alto, with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving at the scene, the gunman drove two miles away to Concord Farm in his maroon Lexus [[SUV]], where he fatally shot three more people.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at both shooting scenes, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref><br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 pm PST, the suspect, who was identified as 66-year-old Chunli Zhao, a resident of the first farm, in Half Moon Bay,<ref name = "CNN-recap">{{cite web |url = https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/half-moon-bay-california-shooting-1-24-23/index.html |title = 7 killed in shooting in Half Moon Bay, California |website = CNN.com |author1 = Amir Vera |author2 = Aditi Sangal |author3 = Adrienne Vogt |author4 = Leinz Vales |author5 = Elise Hammond |author6 = Maureen Chowdhury |date = January 24, 2023 |access-date = January 24, 2023}}</ref> was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of Half Moon Bay's San Mateo County Sheriffs Department substation at 557 Kelly Avenue.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Zhao worked at one of the farms, and the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><ref name="BBC-2023-01-24">{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124101503/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598 |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao had a history of making violent threats to his coworkers, and at one point allegedly attempted to suffocate his roommate with a pillow.<ref name=“threats”>{{Cite web|url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-chunli-zhao-history-workplace-violence-hmb/12731878/|title=Half Moon Bay shooting suspect had history of making threats to coworkers, court documents reveal|date=January 24, 2023|website=ABC7 San Francisco}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Perpetrator ==<br />
The suspect was identified as a 67-year-old local resident Chunli Zhao (born 1955), a longtime farmer, a forklift driver, a former restaurant worker, and a former resident of [[San Jose, California|San Jose]]. Zhao previously was a forklift driver at the Mountain Mushroom Farm beginning in December 2016.<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://apnews.com/article/northern-california-shootings-3eb00c19a36ad129ca7f0063f4b2aaf9|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.apnews.com|language=en-US||url-status=live}}</ref><br />
<br />
While living in San Jose in 2012, Zhao began working at a restaurant in [[Cupertino, California|Cupertino]] with his co-worker Yingjiu Wang, who also lived in the same apartment in San Jose. On March 12, 2013, Zhao tried to suffocate Wang by using a pillow inside Yingjiu's room in their apartment. This occurred two days after Wang filed a restraining order against Zhao. Two days later on March 14, 2013, Zhao confronted Wang inside the apartment and told Wang that "if he wouldn't return to his job, it would be a bigger problem and he would use a kitchen knife to split Wang’s head wide open".<ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/half-moon-bay-mass-shooting-suspect-once-tried-to-17738909.php|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.sfchronicle.com|language=en-US||url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=January 24, 2023|title=Half Moon Bay mass shooting suspect once tried to suffocate co-worker, court records allege|url=https://nypost.com/2023/01/24/mass-shooter-suspect-chunli-zhao-once-tried-to-suffocate-former-co-worker-with-pillow-report/|access-date=2023-01-24|website=www.nypost.com|language=en-US||url-status=live}}</ref> Shortly after the incident, a judge from the [[Santa Clara County, California|Santa Clara County]] Superior Court ordered Zhao to stay away from the apartment within a 300-yard radius until July of the same year. Zhao never returned.<br />
<br />
Shortly before the shooting occurred, Zhao and his wife went back to Santa Clara County where they went to a Chinese bank to send remittances to China, located near the restaurant Zhao previously worked at.<br />
<br />
== Reactions ==<br />
<br />
In a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to help local authorities during their investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers |url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting |url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times |location=Singapore |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124084835/https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting}}</ref> [[Governor of California]] [[Gavin Newsom]] was informed of the shooting while visiting the hospitalized victims of the [[2023 Monterey Park shooting|Monterey Park shooting]] of less than 48 hours earlier, describing the two events in conjunction as "tragedy after tragedy."<ref>{{cite news |date=January 23, 2023 |title="Tragedy upon tragedy": Gov Newsom reacts to Half Moon Bay shootings that killed 7 |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |work=[[CBS Sacramento]] |access-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124030509/https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/newsom-reacts-half-moon-bay-shootings-that-killed-7/ |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite tweet |last=Newsom |first=Gavin |author-link=Gavin Newsom |user=GavinNewsom |number=1617697681668984838 |date=January 24, 2023 |title=At the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when I get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. This time in Half Moon Bay. Tragedy upon tragedy. |language=English |access-date=January 24, 2023 |link=https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1617697681668984838}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also ==<br />
* [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]], a mass shooting that occurred two days before<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=KQSM-FM&diff=1135479914KQSM-FM2023-01-24T22:46:17Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* History */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{short description|Radio station in Fayetteville, Arkansas, United States}}<br />
{{Infobox radio station<br />
| name = KQSM-FM<br />
| logo = File:KQSM TheTicket92.1FM logo.png<br />
| city = [[Fayetteville, Arkansas]]<br />
| area = [[Northwest Arkansas]]<br />
| branding = ''92.1 The Ticket''<br />
| frequency = 92.1 [[Hertz|MHz]]<br />
| airdate = {{start date and age|1964|10|16|p=y}} (as KFAY-FM)<br />
| format = [[Sports radio|Sports]]<br />
| erp = 7,600 [[watt]]s<br />
| haat = 162 meters (531 ft)<br />
| sister_stations = [[KAMO-FM]], [[KFAY]], [[KKEG]], [[KMCK-FM]], [[KRMW]], [[KYNG (AM)|KYNG]]<br />
| class = C3<br />
| facility_id = 16569<br />
| coordinates = {{coord|36|7|38|N| 93|59|23|W|region:US-AR_type:landmark}}<br />
| callsign_meaning =<br />
| former_callsigns = KFAY-FM (1964-1970)<BR>KKEG (1970-2009)<br />
| affiliations = [[CBS Sports Radio]]<br>[[NFL on Westwood One]]<br>[[Arkansas Razorbacks]] Network<br />
| owner = [[Cumulus Media]]<br />
| licensee = Cumulus Licensing LLC<br />
| webcast = {{listen live|http://www.921theticket.com}}<br>[https://www.iheart.com/live/the-ticket-5564/ Listen Live via iHeart]<br />
| website = [http://www.921theticket.com 921theticket.com] <br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''KQSM-FM''' (92.1 [[Hertz|MHz]]) is a [[commercial radio|commercial]] [[radio station]] in [[Fayetteville, Arkansas]], known as ''92.1 The Ticket.'' It is owned by [[Cumulus Media]] and broadcasts a [[Sports radio|sports]] [[Radio format|format]]. It has been the #1 rated sports radio station in [[Northwest Arkansas]] in every ratings book ([[Arbitron ratings|Arbitron]] and [[Nielsen Audio|Nielsen]]) in total listeners and average share since its inception in June 2009.<br />
<br />
KQSM-FM has an [[effective radiated power]] (ERP) of 7,600 [[watt]]s. Its [[transmitter]] is off Pug Gayer Road in Fayetteville.<ref>[https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/finder?call=kqsm&x=0&y=0&sr=Y&s=C Radio-Locator.com/KQSM-FM]</ref> The [[radio studio|studio]]s and offices are on Frontage Road, off North College Road ([[Special routes of U.S. Route 71|U.S. Route 71 Business]]) in Fayetteville.<br />
<br />
==Programming==<br />
Program Director Josh Bertaccini hosts "The Red Zone with JB" during weekday morning [[drive time]]. He also hosts "Razorback Recap" after every [[Arkansas Razorbacks football]] game. ''[[The Jim Rome Show]]'', based in [[Los Angeles]], airs during middays. ''[[The Paul Finebaum Show]]'', focusing on [[Southeastern Conference]] (SEC) college sports, is heard weekday afternoons. Nights and weekends, KQSM-FM carries [[CBS Sports Radio]].<br />
<br />
KQSM-FM broadcasts all [[University of Arkansas]] [[Arkansas Razorbacks football|Razorbacks football]], [[Arkansas Razorbacks men's basketball|basketball]] and [[Arkansas Razorbacks baseball|baseball]] games. In addition, The Ticket carries [[Northwest Arkansas Naturals]] [[minor league baseball]] broadcasts. The Naturals are the Double A affiliate of the [[Kansas City Royals]]. 92.1 The Ticket is also the exclusive radio home for [[NFL on Westwood One]] broadcasts in Northwest Arkansas as well. Co-owned [[KYNG (AM)|KYNG]] [[1590 AM]] Ticket 2 runs CBS Sports Radio, sometimes picking up play-by-play games from KQSM-FM.<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
On {{start date and age|1964|10|16|p=y}}, the station first [[sign-on|signed on]] the air.<ref>[https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-BC-YB/1967/B%20all%20Radio%201967%20YB.pdf Information] from [[Broadcasting & Cable|Broadcasting Yearbook]] 1967 page B-11</ref> It was originally '''KFAY-FM''', the [[sister station]] of [[KPBI (AM)|KFAY]] [[1250 AM]]. The two stations mostly [[simulcast]] a [[country music]] format and were owned by H. Weldon Stamps. KFAY-FM ran 3,000 watts, less than half of its current output. It later switched to an [[easy listening]] format, separate from the AM station.<br />
<br />
In 1970, it switched to [[Album Oriented Rock]] as "92.1 The Keg" with the [[call sign]] '''KKEG'''. Ten years later in 1980, the station dropped AOR and flipped to a [[Top 40]] format for only seven years. During its seven years as a Top 40 station, KKEG downgraded its Top 40 formula from mainstream to rock-leaned in late 1986 shortly after former [[adult contemporary]] station [[KXNA|KCIZ-FM]] flipped to mainstream Top 40/[[contemporary hit radio|CHR]] that same year. The following year in 1987, KKEG dropped its rock-leaned Top 40 format and returned back to its former AOR format. KKEG was acquired by [[Cumulus Media]] in 1999.<ref>[https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-BC-YB/2001/D-Radio-All-BC-YB-2001.pdf Broadcasting Yearbook 2001 page D-30]</ref><br />
<br />
On June 11, 2009, the KKEG call sign and rock music format were moved to 98.3 FM in [[Bentonville, Arkansas]]. The KQSM-FM call sign that had previously been on 98.3 FM was then transferred to 92.1 FM and branded as "Sports Radio 92-1 The Ticket". In January 2013, parent company Cumulus Media entered into a partnership with the new [[CBS Sports Radio]] Network. Over 150 Cumulus sports stations around the U.S., including KQSM-FM, switched their network affiliation to CBS Sports Radio.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{Reflist|30em}}<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*{{FM station data|KQSM}}<br />
<br />
{{Fayetteville (North West Arkansas) Radio}}<br />
{{Sports Radio Stations in Arkansas}}<br />
{{Cumulus Media}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Radio stations in Arkansas|QSM-FM]]<br />
[[Category:CBS Sports Radio stations]]<br />
[[Category:Radio stations established in 2009]]<br />
[[Category:Cumulus Media radio stations]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=1135479561Talk:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T22:43:38Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* What vehicle did Chunli drive? */ Reply</p>
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{{page views}}<br />
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<br />
== Name of the suspect ==<br />
According to the [[World Journal]], the name of the suspect is 趙春利 (Zhao Chunli) in Chinese.<ref>{{cite web |title=北加半月灣槍擊 華人農工7死3重傷 67歲趙春利落網 |trans-title= 7 Chinese farmers and workers were killed and 3 were seriously injured in the shooting in Half Moon Bay of Northern California. 67-year-old Zhao Chunli was arrested |date=January 23, 2023 |publisher=World Journal |url=https://www.worldjournal.com/wj/story/121469/6928179}}</ref> So his surname is Zhao.―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Isn't it "趙春麗" ? <ref> {{cite news |url= https://news.ltn.com.tw/news/world/breakingnews/4192484 |title= 加州除夕槍擊案後 舊金山再傳華裔男開槍至少7死 |publisher= ITN News Taiwan |date= 24 January 2023 |trans-title= After the New Year's Eve shooting in California, at least 7 Chinese men shot dead in San Francisco }} </ref><ref> {{cite news |url= https://tw.news.yahoo.com/%E6%A7%8D%E6%89%8B%E9%97%96%E5%8A%A0%E5%B7%9E%E8%BE%B2%E5%A0%B4%E6%8E%83%E5%B0%84%E9%87%807%E6%AD%BB-%E9%81%AD%E8%AD%A6%E9%80%AE-073404540.html |title= 槍手闖加州農場掃射釀7死 遭警逮 |trans-title= Gunman shoots 7 dead at California ranch, arrested by police |date= 24 January 2023 |publisher= Yahoo News Taiwan |agency= NOW News }} </ref> -- [[Special:Contributions/64.229.90.199|64.229.90.199]] ([[User talk:64.229.90.199|talk]]) 16:28, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I sincerely appreciate your effort to clear up the confusion regarding his name. [[User:HumanOblivion|HumanOblivion]] ([[User talk:HumanOblivion|talk]]) 16:46, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::I have added his name to the infobox. [[User:HumanOblivion|HumanOblivion]] ([[User talk:HumanOblivion|talk]]) 17:03, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
{{reflist-talk}}<br />
<br />
== What vehicle did Chunli drive? ==<br />
<br />
The video of his arrest released by [[KGO-TV]] looks like he drove a red 2000s Lexus, but was unclear if it is. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:{{u|ImDeadAsADoornail}}{{snds}}One of the refs mentions ''maroon Lexus SUV'' which I added prior to seeing your comment here. Please edit my add if you think it would flow better in a different slot in the article body. Cheers! <code>&#123;&#123;u&#124;[[User:WikiWikiWayne|WikiWikiWayne]]&#125;&#125;&nbsp;{[[User talk: WikiWikiWayne|Talk]]}</code> 21:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
::Alright! [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 22:43, 24 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=KAKS&diff=1135479355KAKS2023-01-24T22:42:29Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{short description|Radio station in Goshen, Arkansas, United States}}<br />
{{Infobox radio station<br />
| name = KAKS<br />
| logo = File:KAKS ESPN99.5 logo.png<br />
| city = [[Goshen, Arkansas]]<br />
| area = [[Fayetteville, Arkansas|Fayetteville]] (Northwest Arkansas)<br />
| branding = ''ESPN Radio 99.5''<br />
| frequency = 99.5 [[MHz]]<br />
| translator = {{Radio Relay|95.3 MHz|K237GR|[[Johnson, Arkansas|Johnson]]}}<br />
| airdate = 1989 (as KFAY-FM)<br />
| format = [[Sports radio|Sports]]<br />
| erp = 3,100 [[watt]]s<br />
| haat = 140 meters<br />
| class = A<br />
| facility_id = 69858<br />
| coordinates = {{coord|36|12|19.6|N| 94|06|06.9|W|region:US-AR_type:landmark}}<br />
| callsign_meaning = '''K''' [[Arkansas|'''A'''r'''K'''an'''S'''as]]<br />
| former_callsigns = KRRA (1983-1988)<br>KFAY-FM (1988-1993)<br>KREB (1993-1997)<br>KREB-FM (1997-2005)<br />
| affiliations = [[ESPN Radio]]<br />
| owner = Frank Pearson<br />
| licensee = Pearson Broadcasting of Goshen, Inc.<br />
| sister_stations = [[KXRD]], [[KBVA]], [[KXVB]], [[KFFK]], [[KREB]]<br />
| webcast = [http://radio.securenetsystems.net/v5/KAKSFM Listen Live]<br />
| website = [https://hitthatline.com hitthatline.com]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''KAKS''' (99.5 [[FM broadcasting|FM]]) is a [[radio station]] broadcasting a [[sports radio|sports]] format. Licensed to [[Goshen, Arkansas]], United States, it serves the [[Fayetteville, Arkansas|Fayetteville]] (Northwest Arkansas) area. The station is currently owned by Frank Pearson, through licensee Pearson Broadcasting of Goshen, Inc. In 2015 KAKS switched affiliations from Yahoo! Sports Radio to ESPN Radio and re-branded as "ESPN Radio 99.5".<br />
<br />
KAKS rebroadcasts on FM translator K287AN licensed to Fayetteville, Arkansas, and simulcasts on sister station [[KUOA]] in Siloam Springs, Arkansas.<br />
<br />
On August 14, 2010, KAKS on-air personality Renee Gork was fired after a confrontation with Coach [[Bobby Petrino]]. Petrino refused to answer questions posed by Gork while she donned a [[University of Florida]] Gators hat. Gork claimed that she grabbed the hat from her trunk during a rainstorm, and tried to cover the hat with tape to disguise the logo. According to Gork, she was told by her bosses that they "had her back" and would defend her reasoning to the administration at the [[University of Arkansas]] and Coach Petrino. KAKS relieved Gork of her duties on August 16, 2010.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.stephenasmithshow.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=stephenasmithshow.xml|title=SAS with Renee Gork|publisher=Stephen A. Smith Show|date=17 August 2010}}</ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
{{FM station data|KAKS}}<br />
<br />
{{Fayetteville (North West Arkansas) Radio}}<br />
{{Sports Radio Stations in Arkansas}}<br />
{{ESPN Arkansas}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Radio stations in Arkansas|AKS]]<br />
[[Category:Sports radio stations in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Radio stations established in 1983]]<br />
[[Category:1983 establishments in Arkansas]]<br />
[[Category:ESPN Radio stations]]<br />
<br />
<br />
{{Arkansas-radio-station-stub}}</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=KAKS&diff=1135479309KAKS2023-01-24T22:42:10Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{short description|Radio station in Goshen, Arkansas, United States}}<br />
{{Infobox radio station<br />
| name = KAKS<br />
| logo = File:KAKS ESPN99.5 logo.png<br />
| city = [[Goshen, Arkansas]]<br />
| area = [[Fayetteville, Arkansas|Fayetteville]] (Northwest Arkansas)<br />
| branding = ''ESPN Radio 99.5''<br />
| frequency = 99.5 [[MHz]]<br />
| translator = {{Radio Relay|95.3 MHz|K237GR|[[Johnson, Arkansas|Johnson]]}}<br />
| airdate = 1989 (as KFAY-FM)<br />
| format = [[Sports radio|Sports]]<br />
| erp = 3,100 [[watt]]s<br />
| haat = 140 meters<br />
| class = A<br />
| facility_id = 69858<br />
| coordinates = {{coord|36|12|19.6|N| 94|06|06.9|W|region:US-AR_type:landmark}}<br />
| callsign_meaning = '''K''' [[Arkansas|'''A'''r'''K'''an'''S'''as]]<br />
| former_callsigns = KRRA (1983-1988)<br>KFAY-FM (1988-1993)<br>KREB (1993-1997)<br>KREB-FM (1997-2005)<br />
| affiliations = [[ESPN Radio]]<br />
| owner = Frank Pearson<br />
| licensee = Pearson Broadcasting of Goshen, Inc.<br />
| sister_stations = [[KXRD]], [[KBVA]], [[KXVB]], [[KFFK]], [[KREB]]<br />
| webcast = [http://radio.securenetsystems.net/v5/KAKSFM Listen Live]<br />
| website = [https://hitthatline.com hitthatline.com]<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''KAKS''' (99.5 [[FM broadcasting|FM]]) is a [[radio station]] broadcasting a [[sports radio|sports]] format. Licensed to [[Goshen, Arkansas]], United States, it serves the [[Fayetteville, Arkansas|Fayetteville]] (North West Arkansas) area. The station is currently owned by Frank Pearson, through licensee Pearson Broadcasting of Goshen, Inc. In 2015 KAKS switched affiliations from Yahoo! Sports Radio to ESPN Radio and re-branded as "ESPN Radio 99.5".<br />
<br />
KAKS rebroadcasts on FM translator K287AN licensed to Fayetteville, Arkansas, and simulcasts on sister station [[KUOA]] in Siloam Springs, Arkansas.<br />
<br />
On August 14, 2010, KAKS on-air personality Renee Gork was fired after a confrontation with Coach [[Bobby Petrino]]. Petrino refused to answer questions posed by Gork while she donned a [[University of Florida]] Gators hat. Gork claimed that she grabbed the hat from her trunk during a rainstorm, and tried to cover the hat with tape to disguise the logo. According to Gork, she was told by her bosses that they "had her back" and would defend her reasoning to the administration at the [[University of Arkansas]] and Coach Petrino. KAKS relieved Gork of her duties on August 16, 2010.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.stephenasmithshow.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=stephenasmithshow.xml|title=SAS with Renee Gork|publisher=Stephen A. Smith Show|date=17 August 2010}}</ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
{{FM station data|KAKS}}<br />
<br />
{{Fayetteville (North West Arkansas) Radio}}<br />
{{Sports Radio Stations in Arkansas}}<br />
{{ESPN Arkansas}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Radio stations in Arkansas|AKS]]<br />
[[Category:Sports radio stations in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Radio stations established in 1983]]<br />
[[Category:1983 establishments in Arkansas]]<br />
[[Category:ESPN Radio stations]]<br />
<br />
<br />
{{Arkansas-radio-station-stub}}</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=1135417448Talk:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T15:06:48Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* What vehicle did Chunli drive? */</p>
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{{image requested}}<br />
<br />
== Chun-Li ==<br />
nikki minaj had a major hit / alter ego named "chun-li", based in turn on some video game or comic book. we might need to watch for these articles cross-contaminating. [[Special:Contributions/2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41]] ([[User talk:2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|talk]]) 06:53, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Name of the suspect ==<br />
According to the [[World Journal]], the name of the suspect is 趙春利 (Zhao Chunli) in Chinese.<ref>{{cite web |title=北加半月灣槍擊 華人農工7死3重傷 67歲趙春利落網 |trans-title= 7 Chinese farmers and workers were killed and 3 were seriously injured in the shooting in Half Moon Bay of Northern California. 67-year-old Zhao Chunli was arrested |date=January 23, 2023 |publisher=World Journal |url=https://www.worldjournal.com/wj/story/121469/6928179}}</ref> So his surname is Zhao.―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
{{reflist-talk}} ―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== What vehicle did Chunli drive? ==<br />
The video of his arrest released by [[KGO-TV]] looks like he drove a red 2000s Lexus, but was unclear if it is. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=1135417388Talk:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T15:06:19Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* What vehicle did Chunli drive? */</p>
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{{WikiProject United States |AsianAmericans=y |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
}}<br />
{{page views}}<br />
{{image requested}}<br />
<br />
== Chun-Li ==<br />
nikki minaj had a major hit / alter ego named "chun-li", based in turn on some video game or comic book. we might need to watch for these articles cross-contaminating. [[Special:Contributions/2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41]] ([[User talk:2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|talk]]) 06:53, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Name of the suspect ==<br />
According to the [[World Journal]], the name of the suspect is 趙春利 (Zhao Chunli) in Chinese.<ref>{{cite web |title=北加半月灣槍擊 華人農工7死3重傷 67歲趙春利落網 |trans-title= 7 Chinese farmers and workers were killed and 3 were seriously injured in the shooting in Half Moon Bay of Northern California. 67-year-old Zhao Chunli was arrested |date=January 23, 2023 |publisher=World Journal |url=https://www.worldjournal.com/wj/story/121469/6928179}}</ref> So his surname is Zhao.―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
{{reflist-talk}} ―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== What vehicle did Chunli drive? ==<br />
The video of his arrest released by [[KGO-TV]] looks like he drove a red mid-2010s Lexus, but was unclear if it is. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=1135412759Talk:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T14:32:34Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* What vehicle did Chunli drive? */</p>
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}}<br />
{{ITN note|2023 Half Moon Bay shootings|date=24 January 2023}}<br />
{{page views}}<br />
{{image requested}}<br />
<br />
== Chun-Li ==<br />
nikki minaj had a major hit / alter ego named "chun-li", based in turn on some video game or comic book. we might need to watch for these articles cross-contaminating. [[Special:Contributions/2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41]] ([[User talk:2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|talk]]) 06:53, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Name of the suspect ==<br />
According to the [[World Journal]], the name of the suspect is 趙春利 (Zhao Chunli) in Chinese.<ref>{{cite web |title=北加半月灣槍擊 華人農工7死3重傷 67歲趙春利落網 |trans-title= 7 Chinese farmers and workers were killed and 3 were seriously injured in the shooting in Half Moon Bay of Northern California. 67-year-old Zhao Chunli was arrested |date=January 23, 2023 |publisher=World Journal |url=https://www.worldjournal.com/wj/story/121469/6928179}}</ref> So his surname is Zhao.―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
{{reflist-talk}} ―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== What vehicle did Chunli drive? ==<br />
The video of his arrest released by [[KGO-TV]] looks like he drove a red mid-2010s [[Nissan Pathfinder]], but was unclear if it is. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=1135412598Talk:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T14:31:24Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* What vehicle did Chunli drive? */</p>
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<br />
== Chun-Li ==<br />
nikki minaj had a major hit / alter ego named "chun-li", based in turn on some video game or comic book. we might need to watch for these articles cross-contaminating. [[Special:Contributions/2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41]] ([[User talk:2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|talk]]) 06:53, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Name of the suspect ==<br />
According to the [[World Journal]], the name of the suspect is 趙春利 (Zhao Chunli) in Chinese.<ref>{{cite web |title=北加半月灣槍擊 華人農工7死3重傷 67歲趙春利落網 |trans-title= 7 Chinese farmers and workers were killed and 3 were seriously injured in the shooting in Half Moon Bay of Northern California. 67-year-old Zhao Chunli was arrested |date=January 23, 2023 |publisher=World Journal |url=https://www.worldjournal.com/wj/story/121469/6928179}}</ref> So his surname is Zhao.―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
{{reflist-talk}} ―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== What vehicle did Chunli drive? ==<br />
The video of his arrest released by KGO-TV looks like he drove a red mid-2010s [[Nissan Pathfinder]], but was unclear if it is. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=1135412537Talk:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T14:31:03Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* What vehicle did Chunli drive? */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
{{not a forum}}<br />
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject California |sfba=y |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
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{{WikiProject Firearms |class=Start|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Serial Killer task force |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject United States |AsianAmericans=y |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
}}<br />
{{ITN note|2023 Half Moon Bay shootings|date=24 January 2023}}<br />
{{page views}}<br />
{{image requested}}<br />
<br />
== Chun-Li ==<br />
nikki minaj had a major hit / alter ego named "chun-li", based in turn on some video game or comic book. we might need to watch for these articles cross-contaminating. [[Special:Contributions/2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41]] ([[User talk:2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|talk]]) 06:53, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Name of the suspect ==<br />
According to the [[World Journal]], the name of the suspect is 趙春利 (Zhao Chunli) in Chinese.<ref>{{cite web |title=北加半月灣槍擊 華人農工7死3重傷 67歲趙春利落網 |trans-title= 7 Chinese farmers and workers were killed and 3 were seriously injured in the shooting in Half Moon Bay of Northern California. 67-year-old Zhao Chunli was arrested |date=January 23, 2023 |publisher=World Journal |url=https://www.worldjournal.com/wj/story/121469/6928179}}</ref> So his surname is Zhao.―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
{{reflist-talk}} ―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== What vehicle did Chunli drive? ==<br />
The video of his arrest released by KGO-TV looks like he drove a red mid-2010s Nissan Pathfinder, but was unclear if it is. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=1135412470Talk:2023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T14:30:39Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: /* Name of the suspect */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Talk header}}<br />
{{not a forum}}<br />
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1=<br />
{{WikiProject California |sfba=y |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Crime |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Death |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Firearms |class=Start|importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject Serial Killer task force |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
{{WikiProject United States |AsianAmericans=y |class=Start |importance=Low}}<br />
}}<br />
{{ITN note|2023 Half Moon Bay shootings|date=24 January 2023}}<br />
{{page views}}<br />
{{image requested}}<br />
<br />
== Chun-Li ==<br />
nikki minaj had a major hit / alter ego named "chun-li", based in turn on some video game or comic book. we might need to watch for these articles cross-contaminating. [[Special:Contributions/2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41]] ([[User talk:2601:19C:527F:A660:FD5B:D95F:5A7A:BD41|talk]]) 06:53, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Name of the suspect ==<br />
According to the [[World Journal]], the name of the suspect is 趙春利 (Zhao Chunli) in Chinese.<ref>{{cite web |title=北加半月灣槍擊 華人農工7死3重傷 67歲趙春利落網 |trans-title= 7 Chinese farmers and workers were killed and 3 were seriously injured in the shooting in Half Moon Bay of Northern California. 67-year-old Zhao Chunli was arrested |date=January 23, 2023 |publisher=World Journal |url=https://www.worldjournal.com/wj/story/121469/6928179}}</ref> So his surname is Zhao.―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
{{reflist-talk}} ―― [[User:Phoenix7777|Phoenix7777]] ([[User talk:Phoenix7777|talk]]) 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== What vehicle did Chunli drive? ==<br />
The video of his arrest released by KGO-TV looks like he drove a Nissan Pathfinder, but was unclear if it is. [[User:ImDeadAsADoornail|ImDeadAsADoornail]] ([[User talk:ImDeadAsADoornail|talk]]) 09:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11354099882023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T14:13:09Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|2023 shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = File:San Mateo County California Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Half Moon Bay Highlighted 0631708.svg<br />
| image_size =<br />
| image_upright =<br />
| alt =<br />
| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
| map = {{OSM Location map<br />
| nolabels = 1<br />
| coord = {{coord|37.46|-122.40}}<br />
| zoom = 11<br />
| float = center<br />
| width = 300<br />
| height = 240<br />
| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
| minimap = <!-- Adds a 'minimap image' to the designated corner --><br />
| mini-file = USA California location map.svg<br />
| mini-width = 78 <!-- The desired size of the minimap, in pixels --><br />
|mini-height = 102 <!-- The ratio mini-width/mini-height must equal the ratio width/height of mini-file --><br />
| minipog-gx = 59 <!-- Values between 0 and 100, specifying an optional red marker's location in the minimap. --><br />
| minipog-gy = 80 <!-- Upper left is (0,0), lower right is (100,100). --><br />
<!-- first marker details --><br />
| label1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm<br />
| mark-coord1 = {{coord|37.470032|-122.419389}}<br />
| mark1 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos1 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size1 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color1 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image1 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description1=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label2 = Concord Farm<br />
| mark-coord2 = {{coord|37.437763|-122.425792}}<br />
| mark2 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos2 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size2 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color2 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title2 = Concord Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image2 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description2=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
}}<br />
<br />
| map_size =<br />
| map_alt =<br />
| map_caption =<br />
| location = [[Half Moon Bay, California]], U.S.<br />
| target =<br />
| coordinates =<br />
| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]]s by [[spree killer]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
| victims = <!-- or | victim = --><br />
| perpetrators =<br />
| assailants = <!-- or | assailant = --><br />
| weapon = [[Semi-automatic handgun]]<br />
| numparts = <!-- or | numpart = --><br />
| dfens = <!-- or | dfen = --><br />
| motive = Unknown<br />
| inquiry =<br />
| coroner =<br />
| accused = <br />
| convicted =<br />
| verdict =<br />
| convictions =<br />
| charges =<br />
| litigation =<br />
| judge =<br />
| website = <!-- {{URL|example.com}} --><br />
| module =<br />
}}<br />
On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven people and critically injuring an eighth person. A suspect, identified as 67-year-old [[Pescadero, California|Pescadero]] resident Zhao Chunli, was taken into custody after he was found inside his car outside of the Half Moon Bay Police Department. The suspect worked at one of the farms, and all of the victims were his Chinese-American coworkers.<ref>{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Shootings == <br />
<br />
At 2:22 p.m., first responders were notified of a shooting at the Mountain Mushroom Farm. Upon arriving, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was transported to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving, the gunman drove to the Concord Farm in his vehicle, where he fatally shot three more victims.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at both shooting scenes, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref><br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 p.m., the suspect, who was identified as 67-year-old Zhao Chunli, a resident from Pescadero, was found in his car at the parking lot of the Half Moon Bay Police Department.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Zhao worked at one of the farms, and all of the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><br />
<br />
During a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to render assistance to the local authorities during investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers<br />
|url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting|url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times|location=Singapore |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also == <br />
* [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]], a mass shooting that occurred two days before<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:American spree killers]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornailhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Half_Moon_Bay_shootings&diff=11354095922023 Half Moon Bay shootings2023-01-24T14:10:17Z<p>ImDeadAsADoornail: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Short description|2023 shooting in Half Moon Bay, California}}<br />
{{use mdy dates|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Use American English|date=January 2023}}<br />
{{Infobox civilian attack<br />
| title = 2023 Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| partof = [[mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
| image = File:San Mateo County California Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Half Moon Bay Highlighted 0631708.svg<br />
| image_size =<br />
| image_upright =<br />
| alt =<br />
| caption = Location of [[Half Moon Bay]] within California<br />
| map = {{OSM Location map<br />
| nolabels = 1<br />
| coord = {{coord|37.46|-122.40}}<br />
| zoom = 11<br />
| float = center<br />
| width = 300<br />
| height = 240<br />
| caption = Half Moon Bay shootings<br />
| title = Half Moon Bay, California<br />
| minimap = <!-- Adds a 'minimap image' to the designated corner --><br />
| mini-file = USA California location map.svg<br />
| mini-width = 78 <!-- The desired size of the minimap, in pixels --><br />
|mini-height = 102 <!-- The ratio mini-width/mini-height must equal the ratio width/height of mini-file --><br />
| minipog-gx = 59 <!-- Values between 0 and 100, specifying an optional red marker's location in the minimap. --><br />
| minipog-gy = 80 <!-- Upper left is (0,0), lower right is (100,100). --><br />
<!-- first marker details --><br />
| label1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm<br />
| mark-coord1 = {{coord|37.470032|-122.419389}}<br />
| mark1 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos1 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size1 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color1 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title1 = Mountain Mushroom Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image1 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description1=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| label2 = Concord Farm<br />
| mark-coord2 = {{coord|37.437763|-122.425792}}<br />
| mark2 = Red pog.svg <!-- Red pog is the default so not really needed --><br />
| label-pos2 = right <!-- Various settings in mark1 are inherited by the other marks --><br />
| label-size2 = 11 <!-- unless they are over-ridden individually --><br />
| label-color2 = black <!-- some standard colors can be used that blend well with the map --><br />
| mark-title2 = Concord Farm <!-- Text shown when hovering over or clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
| mark-image2 = <!-- Image shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
|mark-description2=Location of shooting <!-- Text shown when clicking on marker in fullscreen map --><br />
}}<br />
<br />
| map_size =<br />
| map_alt =<br />
| map_caption =<br />
| location = [[Half Moon Bay, California]], U.S.<br />
| target =<br />
| coordinates =<br />
| date = {{start date|2023|01|23}}<br />
| time = {{circa|2:20 p.m.}}<br />
| timezone = [[Pacific Time Zone|PST]]<br />
| type = [[Mass shooting]]s by [[spree killer]]<br />
| fatalities = 7<br />
| injuries = 1<br />
| victims = <!-- or | victim = --><br />
| perpetrators =<br />
| assailants = <!-- or | assailant = --><br />
| weapon = [[Semi-automatic handgun]]<br />
| numparts = <!-- or | numpart = --><br />
| dfens = <!-- or | dfen = --><br />
| motive = Unknown<br />
| inquiry =<br />
| coroner =<br />
| accused = <br />
| convicted =<br />
| verdict =<br />
| convictions =<br />
| charges =<br />
| litigation =<br />
| judge =<br />
| website = <!-- {{URL|example.com}} --><br />
| module =<br />
}}<br />
On January 23, 2023, a [[spree killer]] opened fire at two farms in [[Half Moon Bay, California]], killing seven people and critically injuring an eighth person. A suspect, identified as 67-year-old local resident Zhao Chunli, was taken into custody after he was found inside his car outside of the Half Moon Bay Police Department. The suspect worked at one of the farms, and all of the victims were his Chinese-American coworkers.<ref>{{cite web |title=Half Moon Bay: Seven dead in another California mass shooting |date=January 24, 2023 |publisher=BBC |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64382598}}</ref><br />
<br />
== Shootings == <br />
<br />
At 2:22 p.m., first responders were notified of a shooting at the Mountain Mushroom Farm. Upon arriving, they discovered four deceased individuals with gunshot wounds. A fifth victim who survived was transported to [[Stanford University Medical Center]] with life-threatening injuries. As responders were arriving, the gunman drove to the Concord Farm in his vehicle, where he fatally shot three more victims.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Gaines |first=Tori |date=January 23, 2023 |title=Seven people dead, suspect identified in Half Moon Bay mass shooting |url=https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=KRON4 |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124033148/https://www.kron4.com/news/shooting-reported-in-half-moon-bay/ }}</ref> Several children were also present at both shooting scenes, but they were left unharmed.<ref name=NYTimes.Shooting>{{Cite news |last=Rubin |first=April |last2=Jiménez |first2=Jesus |date=2023-01-24 |title=7 Dead in Shooting in Half Moon Bay |language=en-US |work=The New York Times |url=https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |issn=0362-4331 |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124024657/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/23/us/shooting-half-moon-bay-california}}</ref><br />
<br />
At approximately 4:40 p.m., the suspect, who was identified as 67-year-old Zhao Chunli, was found in his car at the parking lot of the Half Moon Bay Police Department.<ref>{{Cite web |last= |first= |date=January 23, 2023 |title=7 Dead, 1 Injured Following Separate Shootings in Half Moon Bay |url=https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=NBC Bay Area |language=en-US |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021141/https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/peninsula/deadly-shootings-half-moon-bay/3137085/ |url-status=live}}</ref> Zhao was taken into custody without incident, and a weapon was located inside his vehicle.<ref name="NYTimes.Shooting" /> Zhao worked at one of the farms, and all of the victims were his coworkers.<ref name="ABC">{{Cite web |date=January 24, 2023 |title=7 dead, 1 critically injured after shootings at 2 farms in Half Moon Bay; suspect in custody |url=https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/ |url-status=live |access-date=2023-01-24 |website=ABC7 San Francisco |language=en |archive-date=January 24, 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230124021901/https://abc7news.com/half-moon-bay-shooting-multiple-shot-san-mateo-county-sheriff-highway-92/12728943/}}</ref><br />
<br />
During a press briefing, White House press secretary [[Karine Jean-Pierre]] expressed that President [[Joe Biden]] had directed federal law enforcement to render assistance to the local authorities during investigations.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2023 |title=7 dead in mass shooting in California’s Half Moon Bay; victims reportedly Chinese farmworkers<br />
|url=https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/seven-dead-after-another-california-mass-shooting|url-status=live |access-date=24 January 2023 |website=The Straits Times|location=Singapore |language=en}}</ref><br />
<br />
== See also == <br />
* [[2023 Monterey Park shooting]], a mass shooting that occurred two days before<br />
* [[List of shootings in California]]<br />
* [[List of mass shootings in the United States in 2023]]<br />
* [[Mass shooting contagion]]<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{portal bar|Crime|San Francisco Bay Area}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Half Moon Bay shootings, 2023}}<br />
[[Category:2023 crimes in California]]<br />
[[Category:2023 mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Deaths by firearm in California]]<br />
[[Category:Half Moon Bay, California]]<br />
[[Category:January 2023 crimes in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in California]]<br />
[[Category:Mass shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in 2023]]<br />
[[Category:Massacres in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Spree shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:Workplace shootings in the United States]]<br />
[[Category:American spree killers]]</div>ImDeadAsADoornail