Wikipedia - User contributions [en]

Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism

2024-10-24T13:51:01Z

Mayan302: /* User-reported */

<noinclude>{{Short description|Noticeboard for persistent vandalism}}__NONEWSECTIONLINK__
{{#ifeq:{{PROTECTIONLEVEL:edit}}|autoconfirmed|{{pp|1=vandalism|action=edit|small=yes|expiry=}}}}[[Category:Pages that should not be manually archived]]
{{/Header}}
{{adminbacklog|bot=HBC AIV helperbot14}}
</noinclude>

== Reports ==
{{Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism/TB2}}

=== User-reported ===

*{{vandal|Guy450503}} Start of a [[wp:single-purpose account]] for vandalism, as first two edits are spamming pages with copy and pasted nonsense vandalism.--[[User:Apokryltaros|Mr Fink]] ([[User talk:Apokryltaros|talk]]) 01:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*:{{AIV|w}} Level III. [[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 03:25, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*{{vandal|BidGic}} User keeps editing [[XO]] to add the Geometry Dash level "xo" by the user KrmaL, linking to a draft article on the level, despite the consensus being that Geometry Dash levels do not belong in disambiguation pages (this is far from the first time that a disambiguation page has been edited to add a GD level). I'm not sure if the account should be blocked indefinitely or for a few days, but the user has added the GD level to the disambiguation page a total of '''8''' times, getting reverted each time. [[User:BombCraft8|BombCraft8]] ([[User talk:BombCraft8|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/BombCraft8|contributions]]) 02:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*:{{AIV|nesw}} Probably best to report any similar future disruption at ANI. [[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 03:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*::Ok. Fair enough. [[User:BombCraft8|BombCraft8]] ([[User talk:BombCraft8|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/BombCraft8|contributions]]) 12:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*{{vandal|Raghav 1048}} – On {{No redirect|:Vice-Chancellor of the University of Lucknow}}: vandalism after final warning; actions evidently indicate a vandalism-only account; account is being used only for promotional purposes. User keeps ignoring warning messages, and continues to engage in similar behaviour. Primary concern is promotion of the said University and its pages, and repeated upload of copyrighted material with intention to deceive WP. Thanks, Please feel free to ping/mention -- [[User:User4edits|User4edits]] ([[User talk:User4edits|T]]) 06:25, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*{{vandal|213.3.4.7}} – longterm vandalism. [[User:FMSky|FMSky]] ([[User talk:FMSky|talk]]) 09:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*:{{Aiv|i}} [[User:HJ Mitchell|HJ Mitchell]] | [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|Penny for your thoughts?]] 11:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*{{vandal|37.111.164.12}} – Vandalism. Spamming about someone named Umar Jaum. [[:m:Special:MyLanguage/User:TenWhile6/XReport|XReport]] --Warm Regards, [[User:ZI Jony|'''ZI Jony''']] [[User talk:ZI Jony|(Talk)]] 10:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
* {{Vandal|Axl7Rose}} Continued unexplained blanking of templates without discussion or edit summaries (or with bogus edit summaries such as "fixed info"). Many warnings have been issued. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 13:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*:{{AIV|a}} This user has over 17,000 edits and has been around since 2018. Communication is definitely lacking (even non-existant), but it's not all vandalism. Another admin may disagree. [[User:Jauerback|Jauerback]][[User talk:Jauerback|dude?]]/[[Special:Contributions/Jauerback|dude.]] 13:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*{{vandal|Nightfox 41}} – On {{No redirect|:Indomie}} ({{diff|Indomie|1253127044|1251865774|diff}}): vandalism after final warning. [[User:Belbury|Belbury]] ([[User talk:Belbury|talk]]) 13:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
* {{Vandal|103.155.222.45}} This anonymous user is vandalising a page called [[Channar revolt]]. Please look into it. Thank you.[[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 13:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*{{vandal|Claypotpopo}} – account is being used only for promotional purposes. [[User:AlphaBetaGamma|ABG]] ([[User talk:AlphaBetaGamma|Talk/Report any mistakes here]]) 13:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*{{vandal|103.183.83.23}} – Vandalism. [[User:Filmssssssssssss|Filmssssssssssss]] ([[User talk:Filmssssssssssss|talk]]) 13:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism

2024-10-24T13:47:50Z

Mayan302: /* Reports */Reporting vandalism.

Channar revolt

2024-08-28T16:15:43Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

{{Short description|Upper cloth controversy}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes covering their breasts.

==Background==
In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s.Even women of other dominant castes like the [[Nair]]s had to keep their breasts bare in the presence of [[Brahmin]] men.<ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=B_7sDwAAQBAJ&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PA49 | title=Sensuality in Human Living: The Cultural Psychology of Affect | isbn=9783030417437 | last1=Valsiner | first1=Jaan | date=23 June 2020 | publisher=Springer }}</ref><ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FaFHDAAAQBAJ&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PA216 | title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | isbn=978-0-19-516507-4 | last1=Kent | first1=Eliza F. | date=7 October 2023 | publisher=Oxford University Press }}</ref><ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QU0gEAAAQBAJ&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PA139 | title=Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge: The British in India | isbn=9781400844326 | last1=Cohn | first1=Bernard S. | date=11 May 2021 | publisher=Princeton University Press }}</ref><ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=HIRSEAAAQBAJ&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PA91 | title=Unruly Women: Race, Neocolonialism, and the Hijab | isbn=978-0-19-754713-7 | last1=Sheth | first1=Falguni A. | date=7 October 2023 | publisher=Oxford University Press }}</ref><ref name="ghj">{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=RK__DwAAQBAJ&dq=nayar+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PT47 | title=Lanterns on the Lanes: Lit for Life… | isbn=9781648996597 | last1=Abraham | first1=George | date=28 December 2020 | publisher=Notion Press }}</ref> The Nayar women in Travancore were allowed to dress as they pleased by a Royal Proclamation in 1865.<ref name="ghj"/> Brahmin women bare their breasts only in front of the deity in the temple. Before the arrival of Christian missionaries, it was common for women to go topless in Kerala in the 18th century.<ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=XWp2EAAAQBAJ&dq=nayar+women+no+breast+cloth&pg=PA27 | title=Tradition and Transformation in Mohiniyattam Dance: An Ethnographic History | isbn=9781793650726 | last1=Lemos | first1=Justine | date=28 June 2022 | publisher=Rowman & Littlefield }}</ref><ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of still higher-ranked communities,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the women in Kerala, to punctuate their low status.<ref name=TheHindu>{{cite news | url=https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-woman-who-cut-off-her-breasts/article17324549.ece| author= Manu.S.Pillai |title=The woman who cut off her breasts| magazine= The Hindu | date=19 February 2017| access-date=19 February 2017}}</ref> Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the brahmin breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel [[John Munro, 9th of Teaninich|John Munro]], British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread 'pollution' in the state.{{Clarify|date=July 2022}} Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen, [[Gowri Parvati Bayi]], issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore.<ref>{{Cite book |last=Kent |first=Eliza F. |url=https://library.mibckerala.org/lms_frame/eBook/Kent%20-%20Converting%20Women.%20Gender%20and%20Protestant%20Christianity%20in%20Colonial%20South%20India%20(OUP).pdf |title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India |publisher=OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS |year=2004 |isbn=0-19-516507-1 |pages=201–220}}</ref> On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Nadan (subcaste)

2024-07-02T14:41:35Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

{{Short description|Sub-caste of Nadar caste in Tamil Nadu, India}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
'''Nadans''' (also referred as '''Nelamaikkarar''') are a small [[endogamy|endogamous]] group of aristocratic [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] from the regions south of the [[Thamirabarani River]] in the present-day state of [[Tamil Nadu]], India. They were hereditary tax collectors during the [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] and [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan]] rule and also served as petty lords under the [[Palaiyakkarar|poligars]]. The Nadans possessed vast tracts of land and were one of the few subcastes among the Nadars to have practiced [[aristocracy]]. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–33| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==History==
As hereditary tax collectors, the Nadans held civil authority over the lands in their control. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''. The [[Nadar climber]]s were totally dependent on these powerful landlords and treated them with great respect. In the regions dominated by the Nadans, even the [[Vellalar]] accountant or the [[Brahmin]] priest would show deference to the position of the Nadan lords. They rode horses and would buy slaves to work in their houses to retain their proud customs. The Nadan women followed strict gosha, revealing themselves only to the men of their own household, and rode in covered [[palanquin]]s. The Nadans built Hindu temples and also met the costs of festival expenses. The oldest and highest Nadans were the '''Adityans''' of Kayamozhi, who claimed they were the descendants of [[Surya]], the sun god. The Adityans also had special rights at the [[Shiva]] temple in [[Thiruchendur]], where they constructed one of its pavilions. They usually donated the huge wooden car to the temple and in return were given the privilege to be the first to touch the rope which would pull the car through the streets during festival times.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234</ref>

Despite their great wealth and power the Nadans, however, were considered as a portion of the greater class of Nadars and were denied entrance into temples built by higher castes. The Nadans shared the pollution of the lowest climbers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu">[https://books.google.com/books?id=YCJuAAAAMAAJ&q=manadu] Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu</ref>{{Page needed|date=February 2019}} The Nadans would not enter Hindu temples built by higher castes until the issue was solved through campaigning movements and legislation. They claim that they were stripped of their rights and privileges due to the Nayak invasion.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240</ref> The Nadar community was then divided into different opposing groups, with each Nadar climber owing allegiance to a Nadan family. The control of the lands may pass from one Nadan to another but the climbers remained always with the trees assigned to them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=31| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

===Opposing Christianity===
In 1680, the first congregation of Nadars was started at Vadakkankulam with the conversion of a Nadar woman. The Nadar converts came neither from the lowest sections (''Kalla Shanar'') of the castes nor from the highest (''Nadans''), but from the middle subgroups and particularly the climbers. The converts were provided protection by the missionaries from the oppressions of Nadan landlords. With their traditional dominance threatened, the Nadans became the missionaries' greatest adversaries. Many Nadans supported anti-Christian societies such as the Vibuthi Sangam(the Sacred Ashes Society). However, by the 1860s the opposition of the Nadans began to wane. Eventually a few Nadans actually converted to [[Christianity]].<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=51| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper">[https://books.google.com/books?id=cecLBU_oRTcC&q=nadans&pg=PA14 In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper]</ref>

===Nadars of Travancore===
The Nadar climbers of [[Southern Travancore]] served as [[Borassus|palmyra]] climbers on the lands of aristocratic Nadans in the eastern portion of [[Kanniyakumari]]. In the tradition of these Nadan families, the lands were bestowed by the kings of Travancore in return for the Nadans' services.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=56| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==Distinctions within the Nadar community today==
During the 1960s, the Nadan families had some aura of aristocracy and authority. The distinctions that separated them from the rest of the Nadar community were largely gone, as the Nadar climbers gained wealth.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=219| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The once Nadar climbers are today widely into education, business and other important fields.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234"/>

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Nadan (Nadar Subcaste)}}
[[Category:Nadar (caste)]]
[[Category:Social groups of Tamil Nadu]]

Channar revolt

2024-04-28T15:00:36Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

Channar revolt

2024-04-28T14:56:11Z

Mayan302: Removal of refs. Vandalism. reverting

{{Short description|Upper cloth controversy}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes covering their breasts.

==Background==
In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s.<ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=B_7sDwAAQBAJ&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PA49 | title=Sensuality in Human Living: The Cultural Psychology of Affect | isbn=9783030417437 | last1=Valsiner | first1=Jaan | date=23 June 2020 | publisher=Springer }}</ref><ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FaFHDAAAQBAJ&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PA216 | title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | isbn=978-0-19-516507-4 | last1=Kent | first1=Eliza F. | date=7 October 2023 | publisher=Oxford University Press }}</ref><ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=QU0gEAAAQBAJ&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PA139 | title=Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge: The British in India | isbn=9781400844326 | last1=Cohn | first1=Bernard S. | date=11 May 2021 | publisher=Princeton University Press }}</ref><ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=HIRSEAAAQBAJ&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PA91 | title=Unruly Women: Race, Neocolonialism, and the Hijab | isbn=978-0-19-754713-7 | last1=Sheth | first1=Falguni A. | date=7 October 2023 | publisher=Oxford University Press }}</ref><ref name="ghj">{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=RK__DwAAQBAJ&dq=nayar+breast+cloth+brahmin&pg=PT47 | title=Lanterns on the Lanes: Lit for Life… | isbn=9781648996597 | last1=Abraham | first1=George | date=28 December 2020 | publisher=Notion Press }}</ref> The Nayar women in Travancore were allowed to dress as they pleased by a Royal Proclamation in 1865.<ref name="ghj"/> Brahmin women bare their breasts only in front of the deity in the temple. Before the arrival of Christian missionaries, it was common for women to go topless in Kerala in the 18th century.<ref>{{cite book | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=XWp2EAAAQBAJ&dq=nayar+women+no+breast+cloth&pg=PA27 | title=Tradition and Transformation in Mohiniyattam Dance: An Ethnographic History | isbn=9781793650726 | last1=Lemos | first1=Justine | date=28 June 2022 | publisher=Rowman & Littlefield }}</ref><ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of still higher-ranked communities,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the women in Kerala, to punctuate their low status.<ref name=TheHindu>{{cite news | url=https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-woman-who-cut-off-her-breasts/article17324549.ece| author= Manu.S.Pillai |title=The woman who cut off her breasts| magazine= The Hindu | date=19 February 2017| access-date=19 February 2017}}</ref> Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the brahmin breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel [[John Munro, 9th of Teaninich|John Munro]], British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread 'pollution' in the state.{{Clarify|date=July 2022}} Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen, [[Gowri Parvati Bayi]], issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore.<ref>{{Cite book |last=Kent |first=Eliza F. |url=https://library.mibckerala.org/lms_frame/eBook/Kent%20-%20Converting%20Women.%20Gender%20and%20Protestant%20Christianity%20in%20Colonial%20South%20India%20(OUP).pdf |title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India |publisher=OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS |year=2004 |isbn=0-19-516507-1 |pages=201–220}}</ref> On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Nadan (subcaste)

2023-11-20T16:32:08Z

Mayan302:

Nadan (subcaste)

2023-11-20T16:25:10Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

{{Short description|Sub-caste of Nadar caste in Tamil Nadu, India}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
'''Nadans''' (also referred as '''Nelamaikkarar''') are a small [[endogamy|endogamous]] group of aristocratic [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] from the regions south of the [[Thamirabarani River]] in the present-day state of [[Tamil Nadu]], India. They were hereditary tax collectors during the [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] and [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan]] dynasties and also served as petty lords under the [[Palaiyakkarar|poligars]]. The Nadans possessed vast tracts of land and were one of the few subcastes among the Nadars to have practiced [[aristocracy]]. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–33| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==History==
As hereditary tax collectors, the Nadans held civil authority over the lands in their control. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''. The [[Nadar climber]]s were totally dependent on these powerful landlords and treated them with great respect. In the regions dominated by the Nadans, even the [[Vellalar]] accountant or the [[Brahmin]] priest would show deference to the position of the Nadan lords. They rode horses and would buy slaves to work in their houses to retain their proud customs. The Nadan women followed strict gosha, revealing themselves only to the men of their own household, and rode in covered [[palanquin]]s. The Nadans built Hindu temples and also met the costs of festival expenses. The oldest and highest Nadans were the '''Adityans''' of Kayamozhi, who claimed they were the descendants of [[Surya]], the sun god. The Adityans also had special rights at the [[Shiva]] temple in [[Thiruchendur]], where they constructed one of its pavilions. They usually donated the huge wooden car to the temple and in return were given the privilege to be the first to touch the rope which would pull the car through the streets during festival times.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234</ref>

Despite their great wealth and power the Nadans, however, were considered as a portion of the greater class of Nadars and were denied entrance into temples built by higher castes. The Nadans shared the pollution of the lowest climbers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu">[https://books.google.com/books?id=YCJuAAAAMAAJ&q=manadu] Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu</ref>{{Page needed|date=February 2019}} The Nadans would not enter Hindu temples built by higher castes until the issue was solved through campaigning movements and legislation. They claim that they were stripped of their rights and privileges due to the Nayak invasion.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240</ref> The Nadar community was then divided into different opposing groups, with each Nadar climber owing allegiance to a Nadan family. The control of the lands may pass from one Nadan to another but the climbers remained always with the trees assigned to them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=31| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

===Opposing Christianity===
In 1680, the first congregation of Nadars was started at Vadakkankulam with the conversion of a Nadar woman. The Nadar converts came neither from the lowest sections (''Kalla Shanar'') of the castes nor from the highest (''Nadans''), but from the middle subgroups and particularly the climbers. The converts were provided protection by the missionaries from the oppressions of Nadan landlords. With their traditional dominance threatened, the Nadans became the missionaries' greatest adversaries. Many Nadans supported anti-Christian societies such as the Vibuthi Sangam(the Sacred Ashes Society). However, by the 1860s the opposition of the Nadans began to wane. Eventually a few Nadans actually converted to [[Christianity]].<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=51| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper">[https://books.google.com/books?id=cecLBU_oRTcC&q=nadans&pg=PA14 In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper]</ref>

===Nadars of Travancore===
The Nadar climbers of [[Southern Travancore]] served as [[Borassus|palmyra]] climbers on the lands of aristocratic Nadans in the eastern portion of [[Kanniyakumari]]. In the tradition of these Nadan families, the lands were bestowed by the kings of Travancore in return for the Nadans' services.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=56| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==Distinctions within the Nadar community today==
During the 1960s, the Nadan families had some aura of aristocracy and authority. The distinctions that separated them from the rest of the Nadar community were largely gone, as the Nadar climbers gained wealth.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=219| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The once Nadar climbers are today widely into education, business and other important fields.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234"/>

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Nadan (Nadar Subcaste)}}
[[Category:Nadar (caste)]]
[[Category:Social groups of Tamil Nadu]]

Channar revolt

2023-09-08T13:59:31Z

Mayan302: They were not completely naked.

{{Short description|Upper cloth controversy}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes covering their breasts.

==Background==
In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s, Even women of other dominant castes like the [[Nair]]s had to keep their breasts bare in the presence of [[Brahmin]] men. Nair women had no right to hide their breasts in front of them.<ref>https://books.google.co.in/books?id=B_7sDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs242ozY6BAxW8a2wGHWlNCtsQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=nair%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false</ref><ref>https://books.google.co.in/books?id=FaFHDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA216&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs242ozY6BAxW8a2wGHWlNCtsQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q=nair%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false</ref><ref>https://books.google.co.in/books?id=QU0gEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA139&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVlMvpz46BAxVITWwGHbEMDDE4ChDoAXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q=nair%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false</ref><ref>https://books.google.co.in/books?id=HIRSEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN4uLqz46BAxXTTmwGHQ1bCCo4FBDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=nair%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false</ref><ref name="ghj">https://books.google.co.in/books?id=RK__DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT47&dq=nayar+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidluyI3o6BAxXtUGwGHdfTAik4FBDoAXoECAkQAw#v=onepage&q=nayar%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false</ref> The Nayar women in Travancore were allowed to dress as they pleased by a Royal Proclamation in 1865.<ref name="ghj"/> Brahmin women bare their breasts only in front of the deity in the temple. Before the arrival of Christian missionaries, it was common for women to go topless in Kerala in the 18th century.<ref>https://books.google.co.in/books?id=XWp2EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA27&dq=nayar+women+no+breast+cloth&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJoZHWg5OBAxWQS2wGHeSoCzIQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=nayar%20women%20no%20breast%20cloth&f=false</ref><ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of still higher-ranked communities,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the women in Kerala, to punctuate their low status.<ref name=TheHindu>{{cite news | url=https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-woman-who-cut-off-her-breasts/article17324549.ece| author= Manu.S.Pillai |title=The woman who cut off her breasts| magazine= The Hindu | date=19 February 2017| access-date=19 February 2017}}</ref> Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the brahmin breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel [[John Munro, 9th of Teaninich|John Munro]], British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread 'pollution' in the state.{{Clarify|date=July 2022}} Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Sivakasi riots of 1899

2023-05-15T16:01:51Z

Mayan302: removal of content with reference. reverting

{{pp-move-dispute|small=yes}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
The '''Sivakasi riots of 1899''' are a series of communal disturbances which occurred during 6 June 1899 in [[Sivakasi]], [[Tamil Nadu]], Virudhunagar district, India.

==Background==
The Nadar historian Samuel Sargunar claimed that the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] are the descendants of the ancient rulers of [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan kingdom]] and that when [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak rulers]] captured the Pandya country, they divided the country into several ''Palayams'' (divisions) and appointed [[Palaiyakkarar|Palaiyakkars]] as rulers. The [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] rulers of Tamil Nadu, as per the claims of Sargunar, imposed ''Deshaprashtam'' (ostracism) on the ancient Pandyas (Nadars), to ensure that their rise wouldn't ever happen.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=80–90| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277By K. Rajayyan">History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277 By K. Rajayyan</ref> These claims are, however,not baseless. The traditions followed by the [[Nadan (Nadar subcaste)|Nelamaikkarars]] and the existence of the ruins beneath the Teri palmrya forests of [[Tiruchendur]] and ancient Pandyan capital city of [[Korkai]], where the Nadar population is predominant, suggest they could very well be the heirs of the [[Early Pandyan Kingdom|Early Pandyas]].<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87">{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=87| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name=" Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104">[https://books.google.com/books?id=AzRbqgyVHb4C&q=nadar+pandyas] Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104</ref> However, there is little evidence to suggest that the Nadars were the descendants of later Pandya rulers. This belief, that the Nadars had been the kings of Tamil Nadu, became the [[dogma]] of the Nadar community in the 19th century.<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87">{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=87| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The Nadars were a community mostly engaged in the palmyra industry, including the production of toddy and were therefore considered lower than other middle castes, but relatively much higher than the low castes in the 19th century. A small endogamous group of aristocratic Nadars, known as Nelamaikkarars, were wealthy landlords.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India">[https://books.google.com/books?id=14_D50nU7R8C&dq=caldwell+nadars&pg=PA77 Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India By Dyron B. Daughrity]</ref> Due to their association with toddy, the Nadars were not allowed enter temples built by castes above them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=22–23| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

Some Nadar traders migrated to northern [[Tirunelveli]] and [[Virudhunagar]] to settle down in these regions. In course of time, these Nadars (Northern Nadars) became commercially skilled and therefore became upwardly mobile in the late 19th century. [[Mercantilism]] played crucial roles in facilitating their upward mobility. As the wealth of the [[Northern Nadars]] increased, they gradually began to adopt the customs of the [[Kshatriya|North Indian Kshtriyas]] in order to improve their social status as well. This process is known as [[Sanskritisation]]. They also tried to disassociate themselves from their Nadar climber counterparts and many began to adopt the title ‘Nadan’, a title which was before only used by the aristocratic Nelamaikkarars. To punctuate their wealthy and powerful position in the society, the Nadars of Sivakasi hired [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]] as their palanquin bearers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=105–109| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The upward mobility and Kshatriya pretensions of the Nadars of Six towns of Ramanad caused resentment among, castes above them, the [[Vellalar]]s and especially the [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]], the military caste just above the Nadars.<ref name="Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum">[https://books.google.com/books?id=igfd9YYCqf8C&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&pg=PA511] Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum, Pg-511</ref><ref name="State and Society in India By A.R. Desai">[https://books.google.com/books?id=0yqV1Ux0oGIC&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&pg=PA511] State and Society in India By A.R.</ref> Part of this change in the Nadar community resulted in some of them converting to [[Christianity]], both [[Catholicism]] and [[Protestantism]]. However, a majority of almost 90% remained [[Hindu]]s.<ref name="Clothey">{{cite book|last=Clothey|first=Fred W.|title=Ritualizing on the boundaries: continuity and innovation in the Tamil diaspora|publisher=University of South Carolina Press|year=2006|pages=88–90|isbn=978-1-57003-647-7|oclc=255232421|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uRxAOJWnyEwC&q=Sivakasi+riots%2C+1899&pg=PA89|access-date=2009-11-08}}</ref>

==Riots==
At the end of 1895, the Nadars of Sivakasi submitted a petition to the President of the Devasthanam so that a Nadar can get a footing in the management of a local Siva temple. The petition was declined by the committee. In the following years, a series of confrontations brought the Nadars against almost all the communities of Sivakasi. On 26 April 1899, a riot broke out in Sivakasi and the Maravar portion of the town was left almost completely destroyed. This event served as a precursor to the infamous Sivakasi riots. On 6 June 1899, a group of 5,000 Maravars gathered into a mob from all parts of the surrounding villages and towns. During the night before the attack, the Nadars felled trees onto the roads which led to the town and constructed barricades leaving a few places open to draw the attackers together. The Maravars were opposed by about 1500 Nadars. The attack lasted for nearly two hours. The Maravars were sent into retreat, carrying their dead in the dozen carts brought to haul away the loot. Eight hundred and eighty-six Nadar houses were burnt. A total of 21 people were known dead. The Maravar retaliated by attacking the Nadars scattered around Sivakasi leaving 3 Nadars dead. Eventually, the riots came to an end after the intervention of the military{{Which|date=November 2010}} in mid-July 1899.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=114–118| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
* [https://openlibrary.org/b/OL2695184M/Temple_entry_movement_and_the_Sivakasi_riots Temple entry movement and the Sivakasi riots, B. Sobhanan]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sivakasi Riots Of 1899}}
[[Category:1899 riots]]
[[Category:Riots and civil disorder in India]]
[[Category:Ethnic riots]]
[[Category:Social history of Tamil Nadu]]
[[Category:1899 in India]]
[[Category:June 1899 events]]

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Mayan302: /* Channar revolt */

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== Channar revolt ==

Hi. The [[Channar revolt]] article was recently modified by an anonymous user. The refs he/she added along with the content seems fake. Please tell me what I should do. Thank you. [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 16:10, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
:Thanks for your message.RegentsPark has reverted it.[[User:Pharaoh of the Wizards|Pharaoh of the Wizards]] ([[User talk:Pharaoh of the Wizards#top|talk]]) 17:08, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
:: Thank you![[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 04:03, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

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== Channar revolt ==

Hi. The [[Channar revolt]] article was recently modified by an anonymous user. The refs he/she added along with the content seems fake. Please tell me what I should do. Thank you. [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 16:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
:{{tps}} {{ping|Mayan302}} SpacemanSpiff hasn't edited in a while. I've reverted the edits but note that you can just do it yourself. [[User:RegentsPark|RegentsPark]] ([[User talk:RegentsPark|comment]]) 16:45, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
:: Thank you for your reply. I don't have roll back rights.[[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 04:02, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

User talk:SpacemanSpiff

2023-04-27T16:29:01Z

Mayan302: /* Channar revolt */ new section

User talk:Pharaoh of the Wizards

2023-04-27T16:10:38Z

Mayan302: /* Channar revolt */ new section

Channar revolt

2023-04-02T15:56:41Z

Mayan302: redundant and irrelavant. channar(channar is different from Shanar) is a title used by Ezhavas. reverting. morever the shanars legally changed their caste name to Nadars in 1921

{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes covering their breasts.

==Background==

In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s and [[Ezhava]]s, had to bare their chest in the presence of members of the higher-ranked [[Nair]] caste, who in turn had to do so in the presence of still higher ranked [[Nambudiri Brahmin]]s. The Brahmins, being at the pinnacle of the Hindu ritual ranking system known as [[varna (Hinduism)|varna]], bared their chest only in the presence of a deity.<ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of still higher-ranked communities,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the women in Kerala, to punctuate their low status.<ref name=TheHindu>{{cite news | url=https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-woman-who-cut-off-her-breasts/article17324549.ece| archive-date=19 February 2017| author= Manu.S.Pillai |title=The woman who cut off her breasts| magazine= The Hindu | date=19 February 2017| access-date=19 February 2017}}</ref> Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the brahmin breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel [[John Munro, 9th of Teaninich|John Munro]], British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread 'pollution' in the state.{{Clarify|date=July 2022}} Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Sivakasi riots of 1899

2023-04-02T15:37:47Z

Mayan302: redundant and irrelavant. channar(channar is different from Shanar) is a title used by Ezhavas. reverting

{{pp-move-dispute|small=yes}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
The '''Sivakasi riots of 1899''' are a series of communal disturbances which occurred during 6 June 1899 in [[Sivakasi]], [[Tamil Nadu]], Virudhunagar district, India.

==Background==
The Nadar historian Samuel Sargunar claimed that the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] are the descendants of the ancient rulers of [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan kingdom]] and that when [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak rulers]] captured the Pandya country, they divided the country into several ''Palayams'' (divisions) and appointed [[Palaiyakkarar|Palaiyakkars]] as rulers. The [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] rulers of Tamil Nadu, as per the claims of Sargunar, imposed ''Deshaprashtam'' (ostracism) on the ancient Pandyas (Nadars), to ensure that their rise wouldn't ever happen.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=80–90| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277By K. Rajayyan">History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277 By K. Rajayyan</ref> These claims are, however, not baseless. The traditions followed by the [[Nadan (Nadar subcaste)|Nelamaikkarars]] and the existence of the ruins beneath the Teri palmrya forests of [[Tiruchendur]] and ancient Pandyan capital city of [[Korkai]], where the Nadar population is predominant, suggest they could very well be the heirs of the [[Early Pandyan Kingdom|Early Pandyas]].<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87">{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=87| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name=" Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104">[https://books.google.com/books?id=AzRbqgyVHb4C&q=nadar+pandyas] Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104</ref> However, there is little evidence to suggest that the Nadars were the descendants of later Pandya rulers. This belief, that the Nadars had been the kings of Tamil Nadu, became the [[dogma]] of the Nadar community in the 19th century.<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87"/> The Nadars were a community mostly engaged in the palmyra industry, including the production of toddy and were therefore considered lower than other middle castes, but relatively much higher than the low castes in the 19th century. A small endogamous group of aristocratic Nadars, known as Nelamaikkarars, were wealthy landlords.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India">[https://books.google.com/books?id=14_D50nU7R8C&dq=caldwell+nadars&pg=PA77 Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India By Dyron B. Daughrity]</ref> Due to their association with toddy, the Nadars were not allowed enter temples built by castes above them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=22–23| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

Some Nadar traders migrated to northern [[Tirunelveli]] and [[Virudhunagar]] to settle down in these regions. In course of time, these Nadars (Northern Nadars) became commercially skilled and therefore became upwardly mobile in the late 19th century. [[Mercantilism]] played crucial roles in facilitating their upward mobility. As the wealth of the [[Northern Nadars]] increased, they gradually began to adopt the customs of the [[Kshatriya|North Indian Kshtriyas]] in order to improve their social status as well. This process is known as [[Sanskritisation]]. They also tried to disassociate themselves from their Nadar climber counterparts and many began to adopt the title ‘Nadan’, a title which was before only used by the aristocratic Nelamaikkarars. To punctuate their wealthy and powerful position in the society, the Nadars of Sivakasi hired [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]] as their palanquin bearers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=105–109| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The upward mobility and Kshatriya pretensions of the Nadars of Six towns of Ramanad caused resentment among, castes above them, the [[Vellalar]]s and especially the [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]], the military caste just above the Nadars.<ref name="Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum">[https://books.google.com/books?id=igfd9YYCqf8C&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&pg=PA511] Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum, Pg-511</ref><ref name="State and Society in India By A.R. Desai">[https://books.google.com/books?id=0yqV1Ux0oGIC&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&pg=PA511] State and Society in India By A.R.</ref> Part of this change in the Nadar community resulted in some of them converting to [[Christianity]], both [[Catholicism]] and [[Protestantism]]. However, a majority of almost 90% remained [[Hindu]]s.<ref name="Clothey">{{cite book|last=Clothey|first=Fred W.|title=Ritualizing on the boundaries: continuity and innovation in the Tamil diaspora|publisher=University of South Carolina Press|year=2006|pages=88–90|isbn=978-1-57003-647-7|oclc=255232421|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uRxAOJWnyEwC&q=Sivakasi+riots%2C+1899&pg=PA89|access-date=2009-11-08}}</ref>

==Riots==
At the end of 1895, the Nadars of Sivakasi submitted a petition to the President of the Devasthanam so that a Nadar can get a footing in the management of a local Siva temple. The petition was declined by the committee. In the following years, a series of confrontations brought the Nadars against almost all the communities of Sivakasi. On 26 April 1899, a riot broke out in Sivakasi and the Maravar portion of the town was left almost completely destroyed. This event served as a precursor to the infamous Sivakasi riots. On 6 June 1899, a group of 5,000 Maravars gathered into a mob from all parts of the surrounding villages and towns. During the night before the attack, the Nadars felled trees onto the roads which led to the town and constructed barricades leaving a few places open to draw the attackers together. The Maravars were opposed by about 1500 Nadars. The attack lasted for nearly two hours. The Maravars were sent into retreat, carrying their dead in the dozen carts brought to haul away the loot. Eight hundred and eighty-six Nadar houses were burnt. A total of 21 people were known dead. The Maravar retaliated by attacking the Nadars scattered around Sivakasi leaving 3 Nadars dead. Eventually, the riots came to an end after the intervention of the military{{Which|date=November 2010}} in mid-July 1899.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=114–118| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
* [https://openlibrary.org/b/OL2695184M/Temple_entry_movement_and_the_Sivakasi_riots Temple entry movement and the Sivakasi riots, B. Sobhanan]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sivakasi Riots Of 1899}}
[[Category:1899 riots]]
[[Category:Riots and civil disorder in India]]
[[Category:Ethnic riots]]
[[Category:Social history of Tamil Nadu]]
[[Category:1899 in India]]
[[Category:June 1899 events]]

Sivakasi riots of 1899

2023-03-25T15:52:25Z

Mayan302: pov pushing. reverting

{{pp-move-dispute|small=yes}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
The '''Sivakasi riots of 1899''' are a series of communal disturbances which occurred during 6 June 1899 in [[Sivakasi]], [[Tamil Nadu]], Virudhunagar district, India.

==Background==
The Nadar historian Samuel Sargunar claimed that the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] are the descendants of the ancient rulers of [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan kingdom]] and that when [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak rulers]] captured the Pandya country, they divided the country into several ''Palayams'' (divisions) and appointed [[Palaiyakkarar|Palaiyakkars]] as rulers. The [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] rulers of Tamil Nadu, as per the claims of Sargunar, imposed ''Deshaprashtam'' (ostracism) on the ancient Pandyas (Nadars), to ensure that their rise wouldn't ever happen.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=80–90| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277By K. Rajayyan">History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277 By K. Rajayyan</ref> These claims are, however, not baseless. The traditions followed by the [[Nadan (Nadar subcaste)|Nelamaikkarars]] and the existence of the ruins beneath the Teri palmrya forests of [[Tiruchendur]] and ancient Pandyan capital city of [[Korkai]], where the Nadar population is predominant, suggest they could very well be the heirs of the [[Early Pandyan Kingdom|Early Pandyas]].<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87">{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=87| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name=" Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104">[https://books.google.com/books?id=AzRbqgyVHb4C&q=nadar+pandyas] Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104</ref> However, there is little evidence to suggest that the Nadars were the descendants of later Pandya rulers. This belief, that the Nadars had been the kings of Tamil Nadu, became the [[dogma]] of the Nadar community in the 19th century.<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87"/> The Nadars were a community mostly engaged in the palmyra industry, including the production of toddy and were therefore considered lower than other middle castes, but relatively much higher than the low castes in the 19th century. A small endogamous group of aristocratic Nadars, known as Nelamaikkarars, were wealthy landlords.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India">[https://books.google.com/books?id=14_D50nU7R8C&dq=caldwell+nadars&pg=PA77 Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India By Dyron B. Daughrity]</ref> Due to their association with toddy, the Nadars were not allowed enter temples built by castes above them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=22–23| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

Some Nadar traders migrated to northern [[Tirunelveli]] and [[Virudhunagar]] to settle down in these regions. In course of time, these Nadars (Northern Nadars) became commercially skilled and therefore became upwardly mobile in the late 19th century. [[Mercantilism]] played crucial roles in facilitating their upward mobility. As the wealth of the [[Northern Nadars]] increased, they gradually began to adopt the customs of the [[Kshatriya|North Indian Kshtriyas]] in order to improve their social status as well. This process is known as [[Sanskritisation]]. They also tried to disassociate themselves from their Nadar climber counterparts and many began to adopt the title ‘Nadan’, a title which was before only used by the aristocratic Nelamaikkarars. To punctuate their wealthy and powerful position in the society, the Nadars of Sivakasi hired [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]] as their palanquin bearers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=105–109| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The upward mobility and Kshatriya pretensions of the Nadars of Six towns of Ramanad caused resentment among, castes above them, the [[Vellalar]]s and especially the [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]], the military caste just above the Nadars.<ref name="Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum">[https://books.google.com/books?id=igfd9YYCqf8C&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&pg=PA511] Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum, Pg-511</ref><ref name="State and Society in India By A.R. Desai">[https://books.google.com/books?id=0yqV1Ux0oGIC&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&pg=PA511] State and Society in India By A.R.</ref> Part of this change in the Nadar community resulted in some of them converting to [[Christianity]], both [[Catholicism]] and [[Protestantism]]. However, a majority of almost 90% remained [[Hindu]]s.<ref name="Clothey">{{cite book|last=Clothey|first=Fred W.|title=Ritualizing on the boundaries: continuity and innovation in the Tamil diaspora|publisher=University of South Carolina Press|year=2006|pages=88–90|isbn=978-1-57003-647-7|oclc=255232421|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uRxAOJWnyEwC&q=Sivakasi+riots%2C+1899&pg=PA89|access-date=2009-11-08}}</ref>

==Riots==
At the end of 1895, the Nadars of Sivakasi submitted a petition to the President of the Devasthanam so that a Nadar can get a footing in the management of a local Siva temple. The petition was declined by the committee. In the following years, a series of confrontations brought the Nadars against almost all the communities of Sivakasi. On 26 April 1899, a riot broke out in Sivakasi and the Maravar portion of the town was left almost completely destroyed. This event served as a precursor to the infamous Sivakasi riots. On 6 June 1899, a group of 5,000 Maravars gathered into a mob from all parts of the surrounding villages and towns. During the night before the attack, the Nadars felled trees onto the roads which led to the town and constructed barricades leaving a few places open to draw the attackers together. The Maravars were opposed by about 1500 Nadars. The attack lasted for nearly two hours. The Maravars were sent into retreat, carrying their dead in the dozen carts brought to haul away the loot. Eight hundred and eighty-six Nadar houses were burnt. A total of 21 people were known dead. The Maravar retaliated by attacking the Nadars scattered around Sivakasi leaving 3 Nadars dead. Eventually, the riots came to an end after the intervention of the military{{Which|date=November 2010}} in mid-July 1899.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=114–118| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
* [https://openlibrary.org/b/OL2695184M/Temple_entry_movement_and_the_Sivakasi_riots Temple entry movement and the Sivakasi riots, B. Sobhanan]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sivakasi Riots Of 1899}}
[[Category:1899 riots]]
[[Category:Riots and civil disorder in India]]
[[Category:Ethnic riots]]
[[Category:Social history of Tamil Nadu]]
[[Category:1899 in India]]
[[Category:June 1899 events]]

Channar revolt

2022-12-31T17:28:28Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

Channar revolt

2022-12-20T15:24:32Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

Channar revolt

2022-11-12T16:17:49Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes covering their breasts.

==Background==

In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s and [[Ezhava]]s, had to bare their chest in the presence of members of the higher-ranked [[Nair]] caste, who in turn had to do so in the presence of still higher ranked [[Nambudiri Brahmin]]s. The Brahmins, being at the pinnacle of the Hindu ritual ranking system known as [[varna (Hinduism)|varna]], bared their chest only in the presence of a deity.<ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of still higher-ranked communities,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the women in Kerala, to punctuate their low status.<ref name=TheHindu>{{cite news | url=https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-woman-who-cut-off-her-breasts/article17324549.ece| archive-date=19 February 2017| author= Manu.S.Pillai |title=The woman who cut off her breasts| magazine= The Hindu | date=19 February 2017| access-date=19 February 2017}}</ref> Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the brahmin breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel [[John Munro, 9th of Teaninich|John Munro]], British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread pollution in the state.{{Clarify|date=July 2022}} Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Pasi (caste)

2022-10-11T17:59:53Z

Mayan302: Redundant and irrelevant.

{{short description|Dalit community of India}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=April 2019}}
{{Use Indian English|date=April 2019}}
{{pp|small=yes}}
{{Infobox_caste
|caste_name = Pasi
|image = Pasees Low caste Hindoos in Oude 1868 The People of India, a series of photographic illustrations.jpg
|alt = Pasis Group in 1868
|caption = Pasis Group in 1868
|poptime =
|populated_states = [[Bihar]], [[Uttar Pradesh]]
|languages = [[Hindi]]
|rels =
|related = [[Turuk Pasi]]
}}
The '''Pasi''' (also spelled Passi) is a [[Dalit]] (untouchable) community of India.<ref>{{cite book |chapter=Peasant Revolt and Indian Nationalism: The Peasant Movement in Awadh, 1919-1922 |first=Gyan |last=Pandey |title=Selected Subaltern Studies |editor1-first=Ranajit |editor1-last=Guha |editor2-first=Gayatri Chakravorty |editor2-last=Spivak |year=1988 |isbn=978-0-19505-289-3 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=JEjsQbxIOC0C&pg=PA274 |publisher=Oxford University Press |page=274}}</ref><ref name=Rawat>{{cite book |title=Reconsidering Untouchability: Chamars and Dalit History in North India |first=Ramnarayan S. |last=Rawat |author-link=Ram Narayan Rawat |year=2011 |isbn=978-0-25322-262-6 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=bz5dKC81O3IC&pg=PA12 |publisher=Indiana University Press |pages=12–15}}</ref> Pasi refers to tapping [[Palm toddy|toddy]], a traditional occupation of the Pasi community.<ref name="Badri Narayan ">{{cite book|author=Badri Narayan|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=iAQrpDW4-_YC&pg=PA136|title=Women Heroes and Dalit Assertion in North India: Culture, Identity and Politics|publisher=SAGE|year= 2012|isbn=9780761935377|page=136}}</ref> The Pasi are divided into Gujjar, Kaithwas, and [[Boria (caste)|Boria]].<ref>{{Cite book|last=Singh|first=Kumar Suresh|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=jHQMAQAAMAAJ&q=rajpasi+borasi|title=India's Communities: H - M|date=1998|publisher=Oxford University Press|isbn=978-0-19-563354-2|pages=2796|language=en}}</ref> They are classified as an [[Other Backward Class]] in [[Andhra Pradesh]] and [[Telangana]].<ref>{{Cite web|title=National Commission for Backward Classes|url=http://www.ncbc.nic.in/User_Panel/GazetteResolution.aspx?Value=mPICjsL1aLvYBtdZSrP4uO+ploAhiJHMALWmHIwbzS8Il37YLL3Fb0FHfWDHzP7c|access-date=2020-09-07|website=www.ncbc.nic.in}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=National Commission for Backward Classes|url=http://www.ncbc.nic.in/User_Panel/GazetteResolution.aspx?Value=mPICjsL1aLvZW9/wXcIbxcNal/TghxZUuV7adcx5Bs1cEGdzKqq0GufcXEZAUTq0|access-date=2020-09-07|website=www.ncbc.nic.in}}</ref> They live in the northern Indian states of [[Bihar]] and [[Uttar Pradesh]].

==Etymology==
According to [[William Crooke]], the word ''Pashi'' derives from the [[Sanskrit]] word ''Pashika'', a noose used by Pasis to climb and tap [[Palm toddy|toddy]], a drink obtained from palm tree. The tapping of toddy is the original occupation of the Pasi community. However, just like other aspirational caste groups of India, Pasis have a [[myth of origin]]. They claim that they originate from the sweat of [[Parashurama|Parshuram]], an incarnation of [[Vishnu]]. They claim support for this in the word ''sweat'' being derived from the [[Hindi]] word ''Pasina'' and it further paves the way for their claim of "[[Kshatriya]]tva".<ref name="Badri Narayan ">{{cite book|author=Badri Narayan|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=iAQrpDW4-_YC&pg=PA136|title=Women Heroes and Dalit Assertion in North India: Culture, Identity and Politics|publisher=SAGE|year= 2012|isbn=9780761935377|page=136}}</ref>

==Population==
The Pasi live mainly in the northern Indian states of Bihar and Uttar Pradesh, were their traditional occupation was that of rearing pigs.<ref>{{cite book |title=Hindi Dalit Literature and the Politics of Representation |first=Sarah Beth |last=Hunt |pages=8, 23 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=HHc9BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA23 |publisher=Routledge |year=2014 |isbn=978-1-31755-952-8}}</ref> The Pasis of most of the north Indian states have been classified as [[Scheduled Caste]]s by the Government of India.<ref name="Badri Narayan "/>
In the 2001 Indian census, the Pasi were recorded as being second-largest Dalit group in Uttar Pradesh. At the time, they constituted 16 per cent of the Dalit population of the state and mostly inhabited the Awadh region.<ref>{{cite journal |last=Vij |first=Shivam |date=8 May 2010 |title=Can the Congress Win Over UP's Dalits? |journal=Economic and Political Weekly}}</ref> The [[2011 Census of India]] for the state recorded their population as 6,522,166. This figure includes the Tarmali.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011census/PCA/SC_ST/PCA-A10/SC-0900-PCA-A-10-ddw.xlsx |title= A-10 Individual Scheduled Caste Primary Census Abstract Data and its Appendix - Uttar Pradesh |publisher=Registrar General & Census Commissioner, India |access-date=2017-02-04}}</ref>

== History ==
[[Ramnarayan Rawat]] states that the role of the Pasi (and other untouchable) communities in the [[Kisan Sabha (1919-1922)|Kisan Sabha movement]] has been understated by earlier historians. He writes that earlier scholarship held Pasi involvement to be minimal, late-arriving, and more inclined towards criminality and rioting than political activism.<ref name="Rawat" /> He notes that the involvement of Pasi and [[Chamar]]s was significant from the outset. According to him, the Pasi, being land owners, had the same concerns as other Savarna groups, rather than being the 'alienated' pig-rearers they had sometimes been characterised as.<ref name="Rawat" /> [[Chandra Bhan Prasad]], a political commentator, has said that those who continued pig-rearing were ill-treated by socio-political activists, who blamed the occupation in large part for their untouchable status rather than the Brahminism.<ref name="Prasad 2011 161–162">{{cite book|chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=lXyWE6KbG8oC&pg=PA161|title=Caste in Life: Experiencing Inequalities|last=Prasad|first=Chandra Bhan|publisher=Pearson Education India|year=2011|isbn=978-8-13175-439-9|editor1-last=Babu|editor1-first=D. Shyam|pages=161–162|chapter=My Experiments with Hunting Rats|author-link=Chandra Bhan Prasad|editor2-last=Khare|editor2-first=Ravindra S.}}</ref>

The Pasi have in recent times engaged in [[invention of tradition]]. Badri Narayan, a social historian and cultural anthropologist, says that {{quote|Sources of vision and contemplation are absent without literature. This feeling, along with the growing urge to construct an assertive identity and the sense of being deprived of history, led the Pasi community towards the invention of heroes, histories and myths and their documentation in the print medium.<ref>{{cite book |title=Women Heroes and Dalit Assertion in North India: Culture, Identity and Politics |first=Badri |last=Narayan |publisher=SAGE Publications India |year=2006 |isbn=978-8-13210-280-9 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=7feHAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA140 |page=140}}</ref>}}Of late,{{when|date=December 2020}} [[Hindu nationalism|Hindu Nationalists]] ([[Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh]] and affiliates) have been trying to appropriate different folk-heroes of the Pasi caste as Hindu icons to mobilize the electoral prospects of the [[Bharatiya Janata Party]].<ref>{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=MQJNDwAAQBAJ|title=Fascinating Hindutva: Saffron Politics and Dalit Mobilisation|last=Narayan|first=Badri|date=2009-01-14|publisher=SAGE Publishing India|isbn=978-93-5280-135-0|pages=65–72|language=en}}</ref> Hindu nationalists have supported claims that there was a Pasi kingdom that ruled what is now Uttar Pradesh and Bihar in the 11th and 12th century. The rulers of this claimed state include [[Bijli Pasi]].<ref name="Dalit Assertion">{{cite book|author=Badri Narayan|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=iAQrpDW4-_YC&pg=PA72|title=Women Heroes and Dalit Assertion in North India: Culture, Identity and Politics|publisher=SAGE|year= 2012|isbn=9780761935377|page=72}}</ref>

== Notable people ==
{{See also|Pasi (surname)|Passi (surname)}}
*[[Bijli Pasi]], a king from the Pasi community.
*[[Madari Pasi]] was a leader of the militant peasant [[Eka Movement]].

==See also==
*
*[[Saroj (surname)]]
*[[Dalits in Bihar]]
*[[Sanskritisation]]
*[[Turuk Pasi]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
*{{cite book |title=Fascinating Hindutva: Saffron Politics and Dalit Mobilisation |first=Badri |last=Narayan |publisher=SAGE Publications |year=2009 |isbn=978-8-17829-906-8}}
*{{cite book |chapter=Dalit mobilisation and nationalist past |first=Badri |last=Narayan |title=Caste in Question: Identity or Hierarchy? |editor-first=Dipankar |editor-last=Gupta |publisher=SAGE Publications |year=2004 |isbn=978-0-76193-324-3}}
*{{cite journal |journal=Contributions to Indian Sociology |doi=10.1177/006996670403800108 |year=2004 |volume=38 |issue=193 |first=Badri |last=Narayan |title=Inventing caste history: Dalit mobilisation and nationalist past|pages=193–220 |s2cid=145740670 }}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Pasi (Caste)}}
[[Category:Shudra castes]]
[[Category:Dalit communities]]
[[Category:Hindu ethnic groups]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Uttar Pradesh]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Bihar]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Haryana]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Delhi]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Madhya Pradesh]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Jharkhand]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Chhattisgarh]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Uttarakhand]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of West Bengal]]
[[Category:Scheduled Castes of Assam]]

Channar revolt

2022-10-09T04:35:02Z

Mayan302: removal of content with reference. reverting

{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes covering their breasts.

==Background==

In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s and [[Ezhava]]s, had to bare their chest in the presence of members of the higher-ranked [[Nair]] caste, who in turn had to do so in the presence of still higher ranked [[Nambudiri Brahmin]]s. The Brahmins, being at the pinnacle of the Hindu ritual ranking system known as [[varna (Hinduism)|varna]], bared their chest only in the presence of a deity.<ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of still higher-ranked communities,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the women in Kerala, to punctuate their low status.<ref name=TheHindu>{{cite news | url=https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-woman-who-cut-off-her-breasts/article17324549.ece| archive-date=19 February 2017| author= Manu.S.Pillai |title=The woman who cut off her breasts| magazine= The Hindu | date=19 February 2017| access-date=19 February 2017}}</ref> Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the brahmin breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel [[John Munro, 9th of Teaninich|John Munro]], British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread pollution in the state.{{Clarify|date=July 2022}} Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu

2022-09-24T07:49:46Z

Mayan302: This section doesn't have references

{{short description|2022 film directed by Gautham Vasudev Menon}}
{{pp-protected|reason=Persistent [[WP:Disruptive editing|disruptive editing]]; requested at [[WP:RfPP]]|small=yes}}
{{Use Indian English|date=December 2021}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=December 2021}}
{{Infobox film
| name = Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Part I: The Kindling
| image = Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu.jpg
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = [[Gautham Vasudev Menon]]
| story = [[B. Jeyamohan]]
| screenplay = Gautham Vasudev Menon
| producer = [[Ishari K. Ganesh]]
| starring = [[Silambarasan]] [[Siddhi Idnani]]
| cinematography = [[Siddhartha Nuni]]
| editing = [[Anthony (film editor)|Anthony]]
| music = [[A. R. Rahman]]
| studio = [[Ishari K. Ganesh|Vels Film International]]
| distributor = [[Red Giant Movies]]
| released = {{Film date|df=y|2022|09|15}}
| runtime =
| country = India
| language = Tamil
| budget = {{INR|30}} crore<ref>{{cite web |title='Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' box office collection day 4: Silambarasan's gangster flick earns over 50 crores on the first weekend|url=https://www.m.timesofindia.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/box-office/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-box-office-collection-day-4-silambarasans-gangster-flick-earns-over-50-crores-on-the-first-weekend/amp_articleshow/94298945.cms|website=[[The Times Of India]]|access-date=22 September 2022|quote=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu is reportedly made on a budget of around Rs 30 crores.}}</ref>
| gross = {{estimation}} {{INR|44}} crore<ref name = "Bo" >{{cite web| title='Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' box office collection day 6: Silambarasan’s film crosses 44 crores in Tamil Nadu|url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/box-office/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-box-office-collection-day-6-silambarasans-film-crosses-44-crores-in-tamil-nadu/articleshow/94350980.cms|website=[[The Times of India]]|access-date=21 September 2022}}</ref>
}}

'''''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Part I: The Kindling''''', ({{Translation|The Scorched Forest Part I: The Kindling}}) is a 2022 Indian [[Tamil language|Tamil]]-language [[gangster film]] directed by [[Gautham Vasudev Menon]], written by [[B. Jeyamohan]] and produced by [[Ishari K. Ganesh]]. The film stars [[Silambarasan]] and [[Siddhi Idnani]], with [[Raadhika Sarathkumar]], [[Siddique (actor)|Siddique]], [[Neeraj Madhav]] and Aangelina Abraham in supporting roles, the film has music composed by [[A. R. Rahman]].

Principal photography began in August 2021 and ended in April 2022. The film was released in theatres on 15 September 2022 to positive reviews from critics and audience. A sequel is in development.

== Plot ==
{{Unreferenced section|date=September 2022}}
Muthuveeran, a [[Bachelor of Science|B.Sc]] graduate from a village named Naduvakurichi in [[Tuticorin District|Tuticorin]], [[Tamil Nadu]], where his mother Aaruthira learns about his aggressive behaviour. Fearing for Muthu's life, Aaruthira takes Muthu and his younger sister to Chembur in [[Mumbai]], where he starts to earn money for his struggling family by working in a parrotta store, which is run by Esakki and also falls in love with Paavai, who works in a clothes shop. However, Muthu doesn't know that the Esakki is working with Gaarji, who is a gangster in [[Tirunelveli district|Tirunelveli]] and his Malayali boss named Kutty Bhai.

Due to circumstances, Muthu unknownigly gets drawn into the [[Organized crime in India|Mumbai underworld]], where he is appointed as Gaarji's bodyguard due to fallout between Gaarji and Kutty Bhai. Due to a misunderstanding, Gaarji gets killed and Muthu is blamed for his death. Muthu suspects his friend Saravana and learns that he is Kutty Bhai's henchman and was the reason behind Gaarji's death. Esakki kidnaps Paavai's family where Muthu arrives and explains his innocence, where he tells that he is decided to lead a normal life.

After this, Kutty Bhai gets killed by his bodyguard Sridharan after Kutty Bhai harrassed his girlfriend. In a twist of fate, Muthu becomes a respected gangster in [[Lucknow]] where he and Paavai are married and leading a life with their child. Sridharan is living a life as a barber where Muthu's journey of becoming a gangster and how does Sridharan escaped from Kutty Bhai's henchmen and leading a normal life will be continued in the sequel.

== Cast ==
* [[Silambarasan]] as Muthuveeran (Muthu)<ref>{{Cite web |last=R |first=Manoj Kumar |date=10 December 2021 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu teaser: Simbu, Gautham Menon and AR Rahman seem to have a winner |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-teaser-simbu-gautham-menon-ar-rahman-7665886/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211216002054/https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-teaser-simbu-gautham-menon-ar-rahman-7665886/ |archive-date=16 December 2021 |access-date=17 December 2021 |website=[[The Indian Express]]}}</ref>
* [[Siddhi Idnani]] as Paavai<ref name="Idnani" />, Muthu's love interest and later, wife
* [[Raadhika Sarathkumar]] as Aaruthira<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 August 2021 |title=Radikaa Sarathkumar plays Simbu's mother in Gautham Menon's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/radikaa-sarathkumar-plays-simbus-mother-gautham-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85172794.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210205801/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/radikaa-sarathkumar-plays-simbus-mother-gautham-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85172794.cms |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>, Muthu's mother
* [[Siddique (actor)|Siddique]] as Kutty Bhai<ref name="Siddique" />
* [[Neeraj Madhav]] as Sridharan<ref>{{Cite web |date=26 March 2022 |title=First look of Neeraj Madhav from Silambarasan TR's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu out |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/mar/26/first-look-of-neeraj-madhav-from-silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-out-30500.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220327120931/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/mar/26/first-look-of-neeraj-madhav-from-silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-out-30500.html |archive-date=27 March 2022 |access-date=27 March 2022 |website=[[Cinema Express]]}}</ref>
* [[Delhi Ganesh]] as Iyer, from ''[[Nayakan]]''
* [[Appukutty]] as Saravanan
* Aangelina Abraham<ref>{{Cite web |date=31 August 2021 |title=Hot News: This 'Paava Kadhaigal' fame joins STR's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://www.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-cinema-news-16/hot-news-this-paava-kadhaigal-fame-joins-strs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180245/https://www.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-cinema-news-16/hot-news-this-paava-kadhaigal-fame-joins-strs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu.html |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=Behindwoods}}</ref> as Muthu's younger sister
* Jaffer Sadiq as Rawther

== Production ==
=== Development ===
In February 2018, [[Gautham Vasudev Menon]] announced a sequel to ''[[Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa]]'' (2010) titled ''Ondraga'', which would focus on Karthik and his best friends from college travelling to the United States to attend a wedding ten years after the events of the first film.<ref>{{Cite web |date=21 February 2018 |title=Gautham Menon and R Madhavan team up for 'Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa' sequel |url=https://scroll.in/reel/869484/gautham-menon-and-r-madhavan-team-up-for-vinnaithaandi-varuvaayaa-sequel |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210427210536/https://scroll.in/reel/869484/gautham-menon-and-r-madhavan-team-up-for-vinnaithaandi-varuvaayaa-sequel |archive-date=27 April 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[Scroll.in]]}}</ref> It had [[Silambarasan]] reprising his role from the original film, and had pulled out prominent names from [[Cinema of South India|South Indian film fraternity]], but the film did not begin production.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Pattikonda |first=Gautham |date=3 November 2017 |title=Gautham Menon's multi-lingual film to feature Anushka Shetty, Tamannaah and Puneeth Rajkumar |url=https://regional.pinkvilla.com/tamil/news/gautham-menons-multi-lingual-film-feature-anushka-shetty-tamannah-puneeth-rajkumar/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200923155217/https://regional.pinkvilla.com/tamil/news/gautham-menons-multi-lingual-film-feature-anushka-shetty-tamannah-puneeth-rajkumar/ |archive-date=23 September 2020 |access-date=18 May 2021 |website=[[Pinkvilla]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |last=Hooli |first=Shekhar H. |date=21 February 2018 |title=Madhavan replaces Simbu in Gautham Menon's Ondraga |url=https://www.ibtimes.co.in/madhavan-replaces-simbu-gautham-menons-ondraga-761404 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210518165525/https://www.ibtimes.co.in/madhavan-replaces-simbu-gautham-menons-ondraga-761404 |archive-date=18 May 2021 |access-date=18 May 2021 |website=[[International Business Times]]}}</ref> Later, Silambarasan and Menon worked on the short film ''[[Karthik Dial Seytha Yenn]]'',<ref>{{Cite web |date=16 May 2020 |title=Simbu to join Gautham Menon for VTV 2? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-to-join-gautham-menon-for-vtv-2/articleshow/75773440.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200518233750/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-to-join-gautham-menon-for-vtv-2/articleshow/75773440.cms |archive-date=18 May 2020 |access-date=18 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> based on the characters from the first film which was shot during the [[COVID-19 lockdown in India]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=13 May 2020 |title=Kathik Dial Seytha Yenn: Simbu shoots for Trisha and Gautham Menon's short film from home |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/kathik-dial-seytha-yenn-simbu-shoots-for-trisha-and-gautham-menon-s-short-film-from-home-1677465-2020-05-13 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201029134805/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/kathik-dial-seytha-yenn-simbu-shoots-for-trisha-and-gautham-menon-s-short-film-from-home-1677465-2020-05-13 |archive-date=29 October 2020 |access-date=6 August 2021 |website=[[India Today]]}}</ref>

Soon after its release, speculations arose that Silambarasan and Menon would collaborate for the sequel of ''Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa'', or a fresh script written by Menon.<ref>{{Cite web |date=22 May 2020 |title='Vinnaithaandi Varuvaaya 2' to be bankrolled by THIS popular producer? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vinnaithaandi-varuvaaya-2-to-be-bankrolled-by-this-popular-producer/articleshow/75888080.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519124344/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vinnaithaandi-varuvaaya-2-to-be-bankrolled-by-this-popular-producer/articleshow/75888080.cms |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=16 May 2020 |title=Simbu to join Gautham Menon for VTV 2? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-to-join-gautham-menon-for-vtv-2/articleshow/75773440.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200518233750/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-to-join-gautham-menon-for-vtv-2/articleshow/75773440.cms |archive-date=18 May 2020 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> In January 2021, Silambarasan announced his new project which will be directed by Menon with [[Ishari K. Ganesh]] of Vels Film International bankrolling the project,<ref>{{Cite web |date=28 January 2021 |title=Silambarasan TR to reunite with Gautham Menon |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-tr-to-reunite-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/80513764.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123413/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-tr-to-reunite-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/80513764.cms |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=29 January 2021 |title=Silambarasan and Gautham Menon to join hands again for new project |url=https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/silambarasan-and-gautham-menon-join-hands-again-new-project-142400 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123413/https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/silambarasan-and-gautham-menon-join-hands-again-new-project-142400 |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The News Minute]]}}</ref> thus marking the third collaboration between Menon and Silambarasan.<ref>{{Cite web |date=29 January 2021 |title=STR reunites with Gautham Menon |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbu-reunites-with-gautham-menon-7166080/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123712/https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbu-reunites-with-gautham-menon-7166080/ |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Indian Express]]}}</ref> [[A. R. Rahman]] was announced as the music composer in early February 2021,<ref>{{Cite web |date=3 February 2021 |title=AR Rahman to compose music for Silambarasan's next with Gautham Menon |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/music/ar-rahman-to-compose-music-for-silambarasans-next-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/80673866.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519214138/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/music/ar-rahman-to-compose-music-for-silambarasans-next-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/80673866.cms |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> with lyricist [[Thamarai]] also joining the technical team.<ref>{{Cite web |last=K. |first=Janani |date=4 February 2021 |title=Gautham Menon welcomes AR Rahman as composer in film with Simbu. See tweet |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/gautham-menon-welcomes-ar-rahman-as-composer-in-film-with-simbu-see-tweet-1765741-2021-02-04 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123413/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/gautham-menon-welcomes-ar-rahman-as-composer-in-film-with-simbu-see-tweet-1765741-2021-02-04 |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[India Today]]}}</ref> On Menon's birthday (25 February 2021), the makers announced the film's title as ''Nadhigalile Neeradum Suriyan'',<ref>{{Cite web |date=26 February 2021 |title=Silambarasan and Gautham Menon's new film titled 'Nadhigalilae Neeradum Suriyan' |url=https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/silambarasan-and-gautham-menons-new-film-titled-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan-144247 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123424/https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/silambarasan-and-gautham-menons-new-film-titled-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan-144247 |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The News Minute]]}}</ref> named after a line from the song "Ondra Renda Asaigal" from Menon's ''[[Kaakha Kaakha]]'' (2003).<ref>{{Cite news |date=25 February 2021 |title=Gautham Menon-Silambarasan TR film titled Nadhigalilae Neeradhum Suriyan |work=[[Cinema Express]] |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/stories/news/2021/feb/25/gautham-menon-silambarasan-tr-film-titlednadhigalilae-neeradhum-suriyan-23026.html |url-status=live |access-date=19 May 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123421/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/stories/news/2021/feb/25/gautham-menon-silambarasan-tr-film-titlednadhigalilae-neeradhum-suriyan-23026.html |archive-date=19 May 2021}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=13 April 2021 |title=Did you know, Silambarasan had suggested a controversial title for his next with Gautham Menon? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/did-you-know/did-you-know-silambarasan-had-suggested-a-controversial-title-for-his-next-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/82050325.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123415/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/did-you-know/did-you-know-silambarasan-had-suggested-a-controversial-title-for-his-next-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/82050325.cms |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>

=== Pre-production ===
During the production of ''Nadhigalile Neeradum Suriyan'', Silambarasan insisted Menon to work on a raw and rustic-toned script, leading to a change in the storyline as well as the film genre.<ref>{{Cite web |last=காந்தி |first=உ சுதர்சன் |date=6 August 2021 |title='' 'அசுரன்' மாதிரி ஒரு படம் பண்ணணும்'' – சிம்புவின் ஆசைக்காக உருவாகும் 'வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு'! |url=https://cinema.vikatan.com/tamil-cinema/why-simbus-nadhigalile-neeradum-suriyan-changed-into-vendhu-thanindhadhu-kaadu |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210806142014/https://cinema.vikatan.com/tamil-cinema/why-simbus-nadhigalile-neeradum-suriyan-changed-into-vendhu-thanindhadhu-kaadu |archive-date=6 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[Ananda Vikatan]] |language=ta}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=10 August 2021 |title='Vendhu Thanidhathu Kaadu': Gautham Menon changes the film's story to satisfy Silambarasan's wish |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanidhathu-kaadu-gautham-menon-changes-the-films-story-to-satisfy-silambarasans-wish/articleshow/85206911.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033612/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanidhathu-kaadu-gautham-menon-changes-the-films-story-to-satisfy-silambarasans-wish/articleshow/85206911.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> Menon brought in the basic plotline of the novel ''Agni Kunjondru Kanden'' (inspired from a poem written by [[Subramania Bharati]]) by screenwriter [[B. Jeyamohan]],<ref>{{Cite web |date=11 July 2021 |title=Jeyamohan joins Silambarasan and Gautham Menon's 'Nadhigalilae Neeradum Suriyan' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/jeyamohan-joins-silambarasan-and-gautham-menons-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan/articleshow/84315479.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210712192620/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/jeyamohan-joins-silambarasan-and-gautham-menons-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan/articleshow/84315479.cms |archive-date=12 July 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> instead of a fresh script he planned.<ref>{{Cite web |date=8 July 2021 |title=Gautham ropes in Jeyamohan for 'Nadhigalilae Neeradum Suriyan' |url=https://www.sify.com/movies/gautham-ropes-in-jeyamohan-for-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan-news-tamil-vhikv1fiibcbc.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210708201140/https://www.sify.com/movies/gautham-ropes-in-jeyamohan-for-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan-news-tamil-vhikv1fiibcbc.html |archive-date=8 July 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[Sify]]}}</ref> On 6 August 2021, Menon announced the film's new title ''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'', also named from one of the lines from the same poem written by Bharati.<ref>{{Cite web |date=6 August 2021 |title=Simbu's next with Gautham Vasudev Menon titled Vendhu Thaninthathu Kaadu, see first look |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbu-next-with-gautham-vasudev-menon-titled-vendhu-thaninthathu-kaadu-see-first-look-7441527/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210806115026/https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbu-next-with-gautham-vasudev-menon-titled-vendhu-thaninthathu-kaadu-see-first-look-7441527/ |archive-date=6 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[The Indian Express]]}}</ref> The first look also released on the same day, featuring Silambarasan in a rustic avatar. He had reportedly lost 15 kilos for his role in the film.<ref name="15 kilos" /> Ganesh described his role as "a character he hasn't done before".<ref name="15 kilos" /> In the same month, [[Kayadu Lohar]] was announced as the lead actress.<ref>{{Cite web |date=10 August 2021 |title=Kayadu Lohar to play the female lead in Gautham Menon-Simbu's next? |url=https://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/tamil/2021/aug/10/kayadu-lohar-to-play-the-female-lead-in-gautham-menon-simbus-next-2342441.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210811050519/https://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/tamil/2021/aug/10/kayadu-lohar-to-play-the-female-lead-in-gautham-menon-simbus-next-2342441.html |archive-date=11 August 2021 |access-date=11 August 2021 |website=[[The New Indian Express]]}}</ref> However, the role went to [[Siddhi Idnani]] in January 2022.<ref name="Idnani" />

Director-cinematographer [[Siddhartha Nuni]], who worked in the [[Kannada]] film ''[[Lucia (film)|Lucia]]'' (2013) was hired for the project, along with [[Anthony (film editor)|Anthony]], who regularly collaborated with Menon in his previous ventures, handled the editing works.<ref name="15 kilos" /> Silambarasan shared a picture on social media revealing his current transformation for the film, to quell rumours that the first look was "[[photoshopped]]".<ref name="photoshopped" /> A report from ''[[The Times of India]]'' stated that the actor had hired a special instructor to reduce his weight for the past six months and had also trained for the stunt sequences too.<ref name="photoshopped" /> The film's cast further included Malayalam actors [[Siddique (actor)|Siddique]] and [[Neeraj Madhav]], playing pivotal roles in the film.<ref name="Siddique" /><ref name="Madhav" />

The film revolves around the plight of migrant workers, which is Menon's first attempt on portraying the tale of marginalised section in the society.<ref>{{Cite web |date=10 December 2021 |title=Watch: Teaser of Gautham Menon-Simbu's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu is out |url=https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/watch-teaser-gautham-menon-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-out-158580 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210091137/https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/watch-teaser-gautham-menon-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-out-158580 |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The News Minute]]}}</ref> Menon also stated that Silambarasan would be seen in five different looks as the film narrates his journey from teenage to adulthood.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2022 |title=Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanidhathu Kaadu' will be similar to Suriya's 'Vaaranam Aayiram' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasans-vendhu-thanidhathu-kaadu-will-be-similar-to-suriyas-vaaranam-aayiram/articleshow/89091091.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220124123431/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasans-vendhu-thanidhathu-kaadu-will-be-similar-to-suriyas-vaaranam-aayiram/articleshow/89091091.cms |archive-date=24 January 2022 |access-date=24 January 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> Jeyamohan said the film would not be a full-fledged rural action drama like ''Asuran'', but a portion of it would be set in a rural backdrop, and the film will also feature urban portions. He added that the film would be rustic tonally, with the style of Menon's earlier directorial ventures.<ref>{{Cite news |date=6 August 2021 |title=சிம்புவின் வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு: படத்தலைப்பில் ஏன் திடீர் மாற்றம்? |language=ta |work=[[BBC News]] |url=https://www.bbc.com/tamil/arts-and-culture-58115111 |url-status=live |access-date=9 August 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033751/https://www.bbc.com/tamil/arts-and-culture-58115111 |archive-date=10 August 2021}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=6 August 2021 |title=சிம்பு – கெளதம் மேனன் இணையும் வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு |url=https://www.hindutamil.in/news/cinema/tamil-cinema/701912-simbu-and-gauthem-menon-join-hands-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033800/https://www.hindutamil.in/news/cinema/tamil-cinema/701912-simbu-and-gauthem-menon-join-hands-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu.html |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[Hindu Tamil Thisai]] |language=ta}}</ref> Menon stated that the film will be on the lines of ''[[Vaaranam Aayiram]]'', and will see Silambarasan in five different looks as the film progresses from his teenage to adulthood.<ref>{{Cite web |date=21 August 2021 |title=Gautham Menon: Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu will be nothing like anything I've done so far |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2021/aug/21/gautham-menon-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-will-be-nothing-like-anything-ive-done-so-far-26185.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220223115239/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2021/aug/21/gautham-menon-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-will-be-nothing-like-anything-ive-done-so-far-26185.html |archive-date=23 February 2022 |access-date=23 February 2022 |website=[[Cinema Express]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=25 January 2022 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu to be on the lines of Vaaranam Aayiram! |url=https://www.moviecrow.com/News/29866/vtk-release-date-simbu-gautham-menon |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220127041043/https://www.moviecrow.com/News/29866/vtk-release-date-simbu-gautham-menon |archive-date=27 January 2022 |access-date=23 February 2022 |website=Moviecrow}}</ref>

=== Filming ===
Principal photography began on 7 August 2021 at [[Tiruchendur]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 August 2021 |title=அசுரன் போன்ற கதையல்ல 'வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு' – எழுத்தாளர் ஜெயமோகன் |url=https://tamil.news18.com/news/entertainment/venthu-thaninthathu-kaadu-movie-is-not-like-asuran-movie-says-jayamohan-jbr-tmn-528107.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033756/https://tamil.news18.com/nodeapi/pv-candidate |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[News18]] |language=ta}}</ref> On 23 August 2021, shooting was suspended due to the tussle between [[Tamil Film Producers Council]] (TFPC) and [[Film Employees Federation of South India]] (FEFSI), as several producers filed complaints against Silambarasan in the past over his failure to commit to the projects he signed and also demanded for compensation.<ref>{{Cite web |date=23 August 2021 |title=Simbu's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' shooting gets cancelled! - Know Why |url=https://www.indiaglitz.com/simbu-latest-movie-update-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shooting-cancelled-gautham-vasudev-menon-tfpc-fefsi-split-producers-complaint-radhika-ar-rahman-tamil-news-293578 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180245/https://www.indiaglitz.com/simbu-latest-movie-update-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shooting-cancelled-gautham-vasudev-menon-tfpc-fefsi-split-producers-complaint-radhika-ar-rahman-tamil-news-293578 |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=IndiaGlitz}}</ref> Following Ganesh's assurance to compensate the producers, shooting resumed on 26 August,<ref name="resume" /><ref>{{Cite web |date=27 August 2021 |title=Silambarasan awes fans with the second look of 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-awes-fans-with-the-second-look-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85681447.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033622/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-awes-fans-with-the-second-look-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85681447.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> with the second schedule beginning in [[Chennai]].<ref>{{Cite web |last=Palisetty |first=Ramya |date=26 August 2021 |title=Silambarasan begins second schedule of Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu, shares pic |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/silambarasan-begins-second-schedule-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shares-pic-1845698-2021-08-26 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180245/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/silambarasan-begins-second-schedule-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shares-pic-1845698-2021-08-26 |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[India Today]]}}</ref>

On 20 September 2021, the makers announced that the second schedule had been completed.<ref>{{Cite web |date=21 September 2021 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu second schedule wrapped up |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-second-schedule-wrapped-up/articleshow/86396063.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210185130/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-second-schedule-wrapped-up/articleshow/86396063.cms |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> The team took a brief break, following Silambarasan's involvement's in the post-production of ''[[Maanaadu]]'' and on 18 October, Silambarasan went to [[Mumbai]] to begin the third schedule.<ref>{{Cite web |date=18 October 2021 |title=Silambarasan jets off to Mumbai for the next schedule of 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-jets-off-to-mumbai-for-the-next-schedule-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/87100384.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033618/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-jets-off-to-mumbai-for-the-next-schedule-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/87100384.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=18 October 2021 |title=Silambarasan TR's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu ready to roll in Mumbai; Details Inside |url=https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/south/silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-ready-roll-mumbai-details-inside-920335 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210181738/https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/south/silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-ready-roll-mumbai-details-inside-920335 |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[Pinkvilla]]}}</ref> It was reported that the team had planned to resume the shooting in Chennai and had constructed a set resembling Mumbai, in a private film studio.<ref name="month-long" /> Hollywood-based stunt choreographer Lee Whittaker was hired for the action sequences, joined the schedule in Mumbai on mid-October.<ref>{{Cite web |date=23 October 2021 |title=Gautham ropes in Lee Whittaker for Silambarasan TR's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'! |url=https://www.sify.com/movies/gautham-ropes-in-lee-whittaker-for-silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-news-tamil-vkxkNgiceejaa.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180234/https://www.sify.com/movies/gautham-ropes-in-lee-whittaker-for-silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-news-tamil-vkxkNgiceejaa.html |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[Sify]]}}</ref> The team had several complications on the film's production in Mumbai, citing the difficulties in travel due to pandemic and weather conditions, and decided to begin the final schedule in Chennai for more than 25 days.<ref name="month-long" /> However, contrary to the earlier statements, the final schedule began on 7 December 2021 in Mumbai.<ref>{{Cite web |date=7 December 2021 |title=Silambarasan resumes shooting for Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu in Mumbai |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-resumes-shooting-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-in-mumbai/articleshow/88139865.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033614/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-resumes-shooting-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-in-mumbai/articleshow/88139865.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>

On 11 December, Silambarasan was hospitalised in Chennai due to a viral infection, resulting in shooting being stalled for a few days.<ref>{{Cite web |last=K. |first=Janani |date=11 December 2021 |title=Simbu hospitalised in Chennai due to viral infection |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/simbu-hospitalised-in-chennai-due-to-viral-infection-1886727-2021-12-11 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211213200743/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/simbu-hospitalised-in-chennai-due-to-viral-infection-1886727-2021-12-11 |archive-date=13 December 2021 |access-date=24 January 2022 |website=[[India Today]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=11 December 2021 |title=Simbu admitted to hospital for viral infection; discharged later |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-admitted-to-hospital-for-viral-infection-discharged-later/articleshow/88226855.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220125053558/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-admitted-to-hospital-for-viral-infection-discharged-later/articleshow/88226855.cms |archive-date=25 January 2022 |access-date=25 January 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> A minor shooting schedule was later held in Chennai on 3 January 2022, and took place for 10 days.<ref name="Idnani" /> By 13 January 2022, the Chennai shooting schedule has been wrapped and was informed that the team will return to Mumbai for the final schedule which involves few patchwork scenes.<ref name="ChennaiWrap" /> A source from the production team stated that the shooting in Mumbai, will be stalled for some time due to the rise in [[COVID-19]] infections in the city, and will be planned appropriately only after the restrictions being lifted. As of mid-January, 50% of the film has been completed.<ref name="ChennaiWrap" /> The third and final schedule began in Mumbai on 9 February 2022.<ref>{{Cite web |date=10 February 2022 |title=Team 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' shoots the last leg of the film; Silambarasan shares a picture |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/team-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shoots-for-the-last-leg-of-the-film-silambarasan-shares-a-picture/articleshow/89470265.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220210053432/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/team-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shoots-for-the-last-leg-of-the-film-silambarasan-shares-a-picture/articleshow/89470265.cms |archive-date=10 February 2022 |access-date=23 February 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> Filming completely [[Wrap (filmmaking)|wrapped]] on 15 April 2022.<ref>{{Cite web |date=15 April 2022 |title=It's a wrap for Gautham Menon- Silambarasan's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/apr/15/its-a-wrap-for-gautham-menon--silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-30903.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220415134540/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/apr/15/its-a-wrap-for-gautham-menon--silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-30903.html |archive-date=15 April 2022 |access-date=15 April 2022 |website=[[Cinema Express]]}}</ref>

== Music ==
The music for the film is composed by A. R. Rahman in his third collaboration with Menon after ''[[Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa]]'' (2010) and ''[[Achcham Yenbadhu Madamaiyada]]'' (2016) and fourth collaboration with Silambarasan after the former movies and ''[[Chekka Chivantha Vaanam]]'' (2018).<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 December 2021 |title=Rajinikanth, Kamal Haasan, and Ajith connection in Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' glimpse |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/rajinikanth-kamal-haasan-and-ajith-connection-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-glimpse/articleshow/88182936.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211209075528/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/rajinikanth-kamal-haasan-and-ajith-connection-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-glimpse/articleshow/88182936.cms |archive-date=9 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> The audio rights were purchased by [[Think Music]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=8 December 2021 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu shooting resumes! Audio rights bagged! |url=https://www.moviecrow.com/News/29636/vtk-update-simbu-gautham-menon-ar-rahman |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180235/https://www.moviecrow.com/News/29636/vtk-update-simbu-gautham-menon-ar-rahman |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=Moviecrow}}</ref> The first single "Kaalathukkum Nee Venum" was released on 6 May 2022.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2022-05-06 |title=First single 'Kaalathukkum Nee Venum' from Simbu's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' is out now! |url=https://m.timesofindia.com/entertainment/tamil/music/first-single-kaalathukkum-nee-venum-from-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-is-out-now/articleshow/91378104.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220527162811/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/music/first-single-kaalathukkum-nee-venum-from-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-is-out-now/articleshow/91378104.cms?from=mdr |archive-date=27 May 2022 |access-date=2022-05-06 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>

{{Track listing
| total_length = 18:41
| extra_column = Singer(s)
| title1 = Kaalathukkum Nee Venum
| lyrics1 = [[Thamarai]]
| extra1 = [[Silambarasan]], [[Rakshita Suresh]]
| length1 = 4:54
| title2 = Muthu's Journey
| lyrics2 = Thamarai
| extra2 = [[A.R. Rahman]]
| length2 = 1:22
| title3 = Marakuma Nenjam
| lyrics3 = Thamarai
| extra3 = A.R.Rahman
| length3 = 4:18
| title4 = Unna Nenachadhum
| lyrics4 = Thamarai
| extra4 = [[Shreya Ghoshal]], Sarthak Kalyani
| length4 = 3:56
| title5 = Mallipoo
| lyrics5 = Thamarai
| extra5 = [[Madhushree]]
| length5 = 4:05
}}

== Release ==
=== Theatrical ===
The film was released in theatres on 15 September 2022,<ref>{{Cite news |date=29 June 2022 |title=Gautham Vasudev Menon's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' to hit screens on September 15 |work=[[The New Indian Express]] |agency=[[Indo-Asian News Service|IANS]] |url=https://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/tamil/2022/jun/29/gautham-vasudev-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-to-hit-screens-on-september-15-2471047.html |url-status=live |access-date=29 June 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220629095622/https://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/tamil/2022/jun/29/gautham-vasudev-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-to-hit-screens-on-september-15-2471047.html |archive-date=29 June 2022}}</ref> by [[Red Giant Movies]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 July 2022 |title=Red Giant Movies to distribute Gautham Menon- Simbu's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu in Tamil Nadu |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/jul/09/red-giant-movies-to-distribute-gautham-menon-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-in-tamil-nadu-32639.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220715150637/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/jul/09/red-giant-movies-to-distribute-gautham-menon-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-in-tamil-nadu-32639.html |archive-date=15 July 2022 |access-date=15 July 2022 |website=[[Cinema Express]] |language=en}}</ref>

=== Home media ===
Initially, there were reports suggesting that the film's digital rights were acquired by [[Aha (streaming service)|Aha Tamil]],<ref>{{Cite web |date=21 April 2022 |title=Exclusive: Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu OTT Rights |url=https://www.moviecrow.com/News/30346/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-ott-rights |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220714065508/https://www.moviecrow.com/News/30346/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-ott-rights |archive-date=14 July 2022 |access-date=14 July 2022 |website=Moviecrow}}</ref> but later it was announced that [[Amazon Prime Video]] had done so.<ref>{{Cite web |date=28 June 2022 |title=போடு வெடிய.. 'வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு' படத்தின் OTT உரிமை.. கைப்பற்றிய உலகின் முன்னணி நிறுவனம்? |url=https://m.behindwoods.com/ta/tamil-movies-cinema-news-ta/str-venthu-thaninthathu-kaadu-digital-rights-acquired-by-amazon-prime.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220729133505/https://m.behindwoods.com/ta/tamil-movies-cinema-news-ta/str-venthu-thaninthathu-kaadu-digital-rights-acquired-by-amazon-prime.html |archive-date=29 July 2022 |access-date=14 July 2022 |website=Behindwoods |language=ta}}</ref>

== Reception ==
=== Critical response ===
''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'' received positive reviews from critics and audience.<ref>{{cite web |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu box office collection Day 1: Silambarasan-Gautham Menon’s film opens to a promising start|url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-box-office-collection-day-1-silambarasan-gautham-menons-film-opens-to-a-promising-start/|website=[[The Indian Express]]|access-date=17 September 2022|quote=As far as the critical response to the film goes, Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu has received predominantly positive reviews for its unique take on the usual gangster origin story. However, the climax of the film was criticised as hurried and confusing.}}</ref>

Nidhima Taneja of ''[[The Print]]'' rated the film 3.5 out of 5 stars and wrote "It is the journey of the most incomprehensible — or an underdog if you will — man in the pyramid that makes ''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'' worth a watch".<ref>{{cite web |title=A power-packed tale of self-discovery, Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu is among Kollywood’s best |url=https://theprint.in/features/reel-take/a-power-packed-tale-of-self-discovery-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-is-among-kollywoods-best/1130773/ |publisher=[[The Print]] |access-date=17 September 2022}}</ref> Sowmya Rajendran of ''[[The News Minute]]'' rated the film 3.5 out of 5 stars and wrote "Gautham Vasudev Menon’s film has all the familiar material that you expect from a gangster film but also a few departures and inclusions that keep things engrossing".<ref>{{cite web|title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu review: Gautham Menon returns to form in Simbu gangster film|url=https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-review-gautham-menon-returns-form-simbu-gangster-film-167911%3famp|website=[[The News Minute]]|access-date=15 September 2022}}</ref> Karthik Keramalu of ''[[Firstpost]]'' rated the film 3.5 out of 5 stars and wrote "The movie humanizes the lives of gangsters who’re at the bottom of the chain".<ref>{{cite web |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu movie review: Simbu is terrific as a reluctant gangster |url=https://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-simbu-is-terrific-as-a-reluctant-gangster-11265331.html |website=[[Firstpost]] |access-date=17 September 2022}}</ref> M. Suganth of ''[[The Times of India]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and called it "an uneven gangster saga that works in parts".<ref>{{Cite web |last=Suganth |first=M. |date=15 September 2022 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Movie Review : A terrific Silambarasan shoulders an uneven gangster saga that works in parts |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movie-reviews/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/movie-review/94213272.cms |access-date=15 September 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]] |archive-date=15 September 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220915042420/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movie-reviews/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/movie-review/94213272.cms |url-status=live }}</ref> Kirubhakar Purushothaman of ''[[The Indian Express]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and wrote "''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'' begins on a great note and keeps the momentum till the interval only to drop the ball in the climax.<ref>{{cite web|title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu movie review: Gautham Menon-Simbu film is done in by half measures|url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-gauthama-menon-simbus-film-8152208/|website=[[The Indian Express]]|access-date=15 September 2022}}</ref> ''[[Pinkvilla]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and wrote "''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'' is an entertaining gangster drama that has some amazing performances in place".<ref>{{cite web |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Movie Review: Gautham Menon's film makes Simbu give his career-best performance|url=https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/south/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-gautham-menons-film-makes-simbu-give-his-career-best-performance-1190321?amp|website=[[Pinkvilla]]|access-date=15 September 2022}}</ref> Janani K. of ''[[India Today]]'' rated the film 2.5 out of 5 stars and wrote "''Vendhu Thanindhadhu Kaadu'' could have been Simbu’s ''[[Pudhupettai]]'', but it falls short by a few miles. The second half could have been more nuanced".<ref>{{Cite web |last=K. |first=Janani |date=15 September 2022 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Movie Review: Simbu’s terrific acting saves GVM’s gangster origin film |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-simbu-s-terrific-acting-saves-gvm-s-gangster-origin-film-2000401-2022-09-15 |access-date=15 September 2022 |website=[[India Today]] |archive-date=15 September 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220915044611/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-simbu-s-terrific-acting-saves-gvm-s-gangster-origin-film-2000401-2022-09-15 |url-status=live }}</ref> Srivatsan S of ''[[The Hindu]]'' wrote "The biggest positive has got to be how well-rounded the screenplay structure is: where it begins is where the film also ends."<ref>{{cite web|url= https://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/reviews/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-simbu-and-gautham-menon-are-superb-in-this-very-ordinary-gangster-drama/article65893782.ece|title=‘Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu’ movie review: Simbu and Gautham Menon are superb in this very ordinary gangster drama|website=[[The Hindu]]|access-date=15 September 2022|archive-date=16 September 2022}}</ref>

A critic for ''[[Deccan Herald]]'' rated 3 out of 5 and wrote "The template of a small-town man getting sucked into the criminal world isn’t new. Gautham reinvents it and he has a great partner in crime in Simbu. It’s a great combination."<ref>{{cite web|title= 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' review: Gautham Menon returns to form|url= https://www.deccanherald.com/entertainment/entertainment-news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-review-gautham-menon-returns-to-form-1145417.html|website=[[Deccan Herald]]|access-date=15 September 2022|archive-date=16 September 2022}}</ref> Sowndarya Athimuthu of ''[[The Quint]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and wrote "Though ''Vendhu Thanindhadhu Kaadu'' might come across as a usual gangster saga, it is a unique attempt from Gautham Vasudev Menon, who submits to writer Jeyamohan’s vision".<ref>{{cite web|title=‘Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu’ Review: Simbu, AR Rahman Shine in This Gangster Saga|url=https://www.thequint.com/amp/story/entertainment/movie-reviews/vendhu-thanindhadhu-kaadu-life-of-muthu-movie-review-silambarasan-tr-simbu-gautham-vasudev-menon-ar-rahman|website=[[The Quint]]|access-date=16 September 2022}}</ref> Sudhir Srinivasan of ''[[Cinema Express]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and wrote "''VTK'' shows plenty of potential, and the disappointment is that it doesn’t quite hit as many highs as you would expect".<ref>{{cite web |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Movie Review: Scorching promise, middling results|url=https://www.m.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/review/2022/sep/15/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-scorching-promise-middling-results-34718.amp|website=[[Cinema Express]]|access-date=16 September 2022}}</ref>

=== Box office ===
On the first day of its release, the film grossed over {{INR}}12 crore worldwide with the film collecting over {{INR}}8.25 crore in [[Tamil Nadu]].<ref>{{cite web|title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu first day box office collections; Highest opening day ever for Silambarasan|url=https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/box-office/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-first-day-box-office-collections-highest-opening-day-ever-for-silambarasan-1190502 |website=[[Pinkvilla]]|access-date=16 September 2022|archive-date=17 September 2022}}</ref> The film grossed over {{INR|44}} crore and became one of the [[List of Tamil films of 2022|highest grossing Tamil films]] of the year.<ref name = "Bo" />

== Legal issues ==
Before the production of the film, several producers had filed a complaint against Silambarasan at the [[Tamil Film Producers Council]] (TFPC) for not working on the projects he had advanced before the shoot.<ref name="face-off" /> Global Infotainment's [[S. Michael Rayappan|Michael Rayappan]] too criticised Silambarasan, after failing to compensate the losses incurred during the production of ''[[Anbanavan Asaradhavan Adangadhavan]]'' (2017).<ref name="face-off" /> As a result, the Tamil Film Producers Council issued a red card against Silambarasan following the complaints and also insisted the [[Film Employees Federation of South India]] (FEFSI) to stop the production works on the film. However, FEFSI had supported the film because Ishari K. Ganesh had helped the association in several ways during the COVID-19 lockdown.<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 August 2021 |title=FEFSI in trouble for supporting Silambarasan TR's film? |url=https://www.sify.com/movies/fefsi-in-trouble-for-supporting-silambarasan-trs-film-news-tamil-vijeXydfhgjfd.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033748/https://www.sify.com/movies/fefsi-in-trouble-for-supporting-silambarasan-trs-film-news-tamil-vijeXydfhgjfd.html |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[Sify]]}}</ref> It eventually resulted in the split between TFPC and FEFSI, and the shooting was disrupted following this incident.<ref name="face-off" /><ref>{{Cite news |date=9 August 2021 |title=TFPC, FEFSI heading for a showdown |work=[[The Hindu]] |url=https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/tfpc-fefsi-heading-for-a-showdown/article35805803.ece |url-status=live |access-date=9 August 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033748/https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/tfpc-fefsi-heading-for-a-showdown/article35805803.ece |archive-date=10 August 2021}}</ref> Fans of Silambarasan eventually supported the actor and condemned TFPC's actions;<ref name="Netizens" /> they started using the [[hashtag]] "#SaveTamilCinemafromTFPC" eventually being trending for two days on Twitter.<ref name="Netizens" /> Later, on 26 August 2021, Ganesh admitted to pay the requested amount on behalf of the actor in order to resume shooting; an assurance letter was submitted to the producers council.<ref name="resume" />

== Sequel ==
The complete title ''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Part I: The Kindling'' was unveiled in early September, confirming that a sequel was in development.<ref>{{Cite web |date=3 September 2022 |title=Simbu’s Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu sequel confirmed: ‘The story does not end with this’ |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-sequel-confirmed-the-story-does-not-end-with-this/ |access-date=15 September 2022 |website=[[The Indian Express]] |archive-date=14 September 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220914195354/https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-sequel-confirmed-the-story-does-not-end-with-this/ |url-status=live }}</ref>

== References ==
{{reflist|refs=
<ref name="Idnani">{{Cite web |date=31 December 2021 |title=Siddhi Idnani is Silambarasan's pair in Gautham Menon's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/siddhi-idnani-is-silambarasans-pair-in-gautham-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/88623502.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220101031330/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/siddhi-idnani-is-silambarasans-pair-in-gautham-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/88623502.cms |archive-date=1 January 2022 |access-date=4 January 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="Siddique">{{Cite web |date=20 September 2021 |title=Malayalam actor Siddique to play the antagonist in Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/malayalam-actor-siddique-to-play-the-antagonist-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/86368192.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211001102327/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/malayalam-actor-siddique-to-play-the-antagonist-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/86368192.cms |archive-date=1 October 2021 |access-date=1 October 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="Madhav">{{Cite web |date=15 November 2021 |title=Neeraj Madhav to play a crucial role in Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/neeraj-madhav-to-play-a-crucial-role-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/87718754.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033620/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/neeraj-madhav-to-play-a-crucial-role-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/87718754.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="15 kilos">{{Cite web |last=CR |first=Sharanya |date=7 August 2021 |title=STR loses 15 kilos for his action drama with Gautham Menon |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/str-loses-15-kilos-for-his-action-drama-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/85104248.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033747/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/str-loses-15-kilos-for-his-action-drama-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/85104248.cms |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="photoshopped">{{Cite web |date=13 August 2021 |title=Simbu answers doubters with pic of his slimmed down body for Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-answers-doubters-by-sharing-pic-of-his-slimmed-down-body-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85301575.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033615/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-answers-doubters-by-sharing-pic-of-his-slimmed-down-body-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85301575.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="resume">{{Cite web |date=26 August 2021 |title='Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' shooting resumes today after Ishari Ganesh assures to pay for Silambarasan TR |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shooting-resumes-today-after-ishari-ganesh-assures-to-pay-for-silambarasan-tr/articleshow/85650154.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210190639/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shooting-resumes-today-after-ishari-ganesh-assures-to-pay-for-silambarasan-tr/articleshow/85650154.cms |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="month-long">{{Cite web |last=Praveenkumar |first=K |date=9 November 2021 |title='Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' to have a month-long final schedule |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-to-have-a-month-long-final-schedule/articleshow/87602570.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033617/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-to-have-a-month-long-final-schedule/articleshow/87602570.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="ChennaiWrap">{{Cite web |date=13 January 2022 |title=It's a wrap for the Chennai schedule of Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/its-a-wrap-for-the-chennai-schedule-of-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/88873670.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220113085621/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/its-a-wrap-for-the-chennai-schedule-of-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/88873670.cms |archive-date=13 January 2022 |access-date=24 January 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="face-off">{{Cite web |last=Suganth |first=M. |date=8 August 2021 |title=Is Silambarasan the reason behind the recent face-off between TFPC and FEFSI? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/is-silambarasan-the-reason-behind-the-recent-face-off-between-tfpc-and-fefsi/articleshow/85154108.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033747/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/is-silambarasan-the-reason-behind-the-recent-face-off-between-tfpc-and-fefsi/articleshow/85154108.cms |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="Netizens">{{Cite web |date=13 August 2021 |title=Netizens extend support to Silambarasan in the producer council issue |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/netizens-extend-support-to-silambarasan-in-the-producer-council-issue/articleshow/85294413.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210190637/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/netizens-extend-support-to-silambarasan-in-the-producer-council-issue/articleshow/85294413.cms |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
}}

== External links ==
* {{IMDb title|id=14182646}}

{{Gautham Vasudev Menon}}

[[Category:Film productions suspended due to the COVID-19 pandemic]]
[[Category:Films directed by Gautham Vasudev Menon]]
[[Category:Films scored by A. R. Rahman]]
[[Category:Indian action drama films]]
[[Category:Indian gangster films]]

Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu

2022-09-24T07:43:24Z

Mayan302: /* Plot */No reference. Nothing. This article must be rewritten

{{short description|2022 film directed by Gautham Vasudev Menon}}
{{pp-protected|reason=Persistent [[WP:Disruptive editing|disruptive editing]]; requested at [[WP:RfPP]]|small=yes}}
{{Use Indian English|date=December 2021}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=December 2021}}
{{Infobox film
| name = Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Part I: The Kindling
| image = Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu.jpg
| caption = Theatrical release poster
| director = [[Gautham Vasudev Menon]]
| story = [[B. Jeyamohan]]
| screenplay = Gautham Vasudev Menon
| producer = [[Ishari K. Ganesh]]
| starring = [[Silambarasan]] [[Siddhi Idnani]]
| cinematography = [[Siddhartha Nuni]]
| editing = [[Anthony (film editor)|Anthony]]
| music = [[A. R. Rahman]]
| studio = [[Ishari K. Ganesh|Vels Film International]]
| distributor = [[Red Giant Movies]]
| released = {{Film date|df=y|2022|09|15}}
| runtime =
| country = India
| language = Tamil
| budget = {{INR|30}} crore<ref>{{cite web |title='Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' box office collection day 4: Silambarasan's gangster flick earns over 50 crores on the first weekend|url=https://www.m.timesofindia.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/box-office/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-box-office-collection-day-4-silambarasans-gangster-flick-earns-over-50-crores-on-the-first-weekend/amp_articleshow/94298945.cms|website=[[The Times Of India]]|access-date=22 September 2022|quote=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu is reportedly made on a budget of around Rs 30 crores.}}</ref>
| gross = {{estimation}} {{INR|44}} crore<ref name = "Bo" >{{cite web| title='Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' box office collection day 6: Silambarasan’s film crosses 44 crores in Tamil Nadu|url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/box-office/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-box-office-collection-day-6-silambarasans-film-crosses-44-crores-in-tamil-nadu/articleshow/94350980.cms|website=[[The Times of India]]|access-date=21 September 2022}}</ref>
}}

'''''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Part I: The Kindling''''', ({{Translation|The Scorched Forest Part I: The Kindling}}) is a 2022 Indian [[Tamil language|Tamil]]-language [[gangster film]] directed by [[Gautham Vasudev Menon]], written by [[B. Jeyamohan]] and produced by [[Ishari K. Ganesh]]. The film stars [[Silambarasan]] and [[Siddhi Idnani]], with [[Raadhika Sarathkumar]], [[Siddique (actor)|Siddique]], [[Neeraj Madhav]] and Aangelina Abraham in supporting roles, the film has music composed by [[A. R. Rahman]].

Principal photography began in August 2021 and ended in April 2022. The film was released in theatres on 15 September 2022 to positive reviews from critics and audience. A sequel is in development.

== Plot ==
Muthuveeran, a [[Bachelor of Science|B.Sc]] graduate from a village named Naduvakurichi in [[Tuticorin District|Tuticorin]], [[Tamil Nadu]], where his mother Aaruthira learns about his aggressive behaviour. Fearing for Muthu's life, Aaruthira takes Muthu and his younger sister to Chembur in [[Mumbai]], where he starts to earn money for his struggling family by working in a parrotta store, which is run by Esakki and also falls in love with Paavai, who works in a clothes shop. However, Muthu doesn't know that the Esakki is working with Gaarji, who is a gangster in [[Tirunelveli district|Tirunelveli]] and his Malayali boss named Kutty Bhai.

Due to circumstances, Muthu unknownigly gets drawn into the [[Organized crime in India|Mumbai underworld]], where he is appointed as Gaarji's bodyguard due to fallout between Gaarji and Kutty Bhai. Due to a misunderstanding, Gaarji gets killed and Muthu is blamed for his death. Muthu suspects his friend Saravana and learns that he is Kutty Bhai's henchman and was the reason behind Gaarji's death. Esakki kidnaps Paavai's family where Muthu arrives and explains his innocence, where he tells that he is decided to lead a normal life.

After this, Kutty Bhai gets killed by his bodyguard Sridharan after Kutty Bhai harrassed his girlfriend. In a twist of fate, Muthu becomes a respected gangster in [[Lucknow]] where he and Paavai are married and leading a life with their child. Sridharan is living a life as a barber where Muthu's journey of becoming a gangster and how does Sridharan escaped from Kutty Bhai's henchmen and leading a normal life will be continued in the sequel.

== Cast ==
* [[Silambarasan]] as Muthuveeran (Muthu)<ref>{{Cite web |last=R |first=Manoj Kumar |date=10 December 2021 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu teaser: Simbu, Gautham Menon and AR Rahman seem to have a winner |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-teaser-simbu-gautham-menon-ar-rahman-7665886/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211216002054/https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-teaser-simbu-gautham-menon-ar-rahman-7665886/ |archive-date=16 December 2021 |access-date=17 December 2021 |website=[[The Indian Express]]}}</ref>
* [[Siddhi Idnani]] as Paavai<ref name="Idnani" />, Muthu's love interest and later, wife
* [[Raadhika Sarathkumar]] as Aaruthira<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 August 2021 |title=Radikaa Sarathkumar plays Simbu's mother in Gautham Menon's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/radikaa-sarathkumar-plays-simbus-mother-gautham-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85172794.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210205801/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/radikaa-sarathkumar-plays-simbus-mother-gautham-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85172794.cms |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>, Muthu's mother
* [[Siddique (actor)|Siddique]] as Kutty Bhai<ref name="Siddique" />
* [[Neeraj Madhav]] as Sridharan<ref>{{Cite web |date=26 March 2022 |title=First look of Neeraj Madhav from Silambarasan TR's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu out |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/mar/26/first-look-of-neeraj-madhav-from-silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-out-30500.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220327120931/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/mar/26/first-look-of-neeraj-madhav-from-silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-out-30500.html |archive-date=27 March 2022 |access-date=27 March 2022 |website=[[Cinema Express]]}}</ref>
* [[Delhi Ganesh]] as Iyer, from ''[[Nayakan]]''
* [[Appukutty]] as Saravanan
* Aangelina Abraham<ref>{{Cite web |date=31 August 2021 |title=Hot News: This 'Paava Kadhaigal' fame joins STR's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://www.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-cinema-news-16/hot-news-this-paava-kadhaigal-fame-joins-strs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180245/https://www.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-cinema-news-16/hot-news-this-paava-kadhaigal-fame-joins-strs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu.html |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=Behindwoods}}</ref> as Muthu's younger sister
* Jaffer Sadiq as Rawther

== Production ==
=== Development ===
In February 2018, [[Gautham Vasudev Menon]] announced a sequel to ''[[Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa]]'' (2010) titled ''Ondraga'', which would focus on Karthik and his best friends from college travelling to the United States to attend a wedding ten years after the events of the first film.<ref>{{Cite web |date=21 February 2018 |title=Gautham Menon and R Madhavan team up for 'Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa' sequel |url=https://scroll.in/reel/869484/gautham-menon-and-r-madhavan-team-up-for-vinnaithaandi-varuvaayaa-sequel |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210427210536/https://scroll.in/reel/869484/gautham-menon-and-r-madhavan-team-up-for-vinnaithaandi-varuvaayaa-sequel |archive-date=27 April 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[Scroll.in]]}}</ref> It had [[Silambarasan]] reprising his role from the original film, and had pulled out prominent names from [[Cinema of South India|South Indian film fraternity]], but the film did not begin production.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Pattikonda |first=Gautham |date=3 November 2017 |title=Gautham Menon's multi-lingual film to feature Anushka Shetty, Tamannaah and Puneeth Rajkumar |url=https://regional.pinkvilla.com/tamil/news/gautham-menons-multi-lingual-film-feature-anushka-shetty-tamannah-puneeth-rajkumar/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200923155217/https://regional.pinkvilla.com/tamil/news/gautham-menons-multi-lingual-film-feature-anushka-shetty-tamannah-puneeth-rajkumar/ |archive-date=23 September 2020 |access-date=18 May 2021 |website=[[Pinkvilla]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |last=Hooli |first=Shekhar H. |date=21 February 2018 |title=Madhavan replaces Simbu in Gautham Menon's Ondraga |url=https://www.ibtimes.co.in/madhavan-replaces-simbu-gautham-menons-ondraga-761404 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210518165525/https://www.ibtimes.co.in/madhavan-replaces-simbu-gautham-menons-ondraga-761404 |archive-date=18 May 2021 |access-date=18 May 2021 |website=[[International Business Times]]}}</ref> Later, Silambarasan and Menon worked on the short film ''[[Karthik Dial Seytha Yenn]]'',<ref>{{Cite web |date=16 May 2020 |title=Simbu to join Gautham Menon for VTV 2? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-to-join-gautham-menon-for-vtv-2/articleshow/75773440.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200518233750/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-to-join-gautham-menon-for-vtv-2/articleshow/75773440.cms |archive-date=18 May 2020 |access-date=18 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> based on the characters from the first film which was shot during the [[COVID-19 lockdown in India]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=13 May 2020 |title=Kathik Dial Seytha Yenn: Simbu shoots for Trisha and Gautham Menon's short film from home |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/kathik-dial-seytha-yenn-simbu-shoots-for-trisha-and-gautham-menon-s-short-film-from-home-1677465-2020-05-13 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201029134805/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/kathik-dial-seytha-yenn-simbu-shoots-for-trisha-and-gautham-menon-s-short-film-from-home-1677465-2020-05-13 |archive-date=29 October 2020 |access-date=6 August 2021 |website=[[India Today]]}}</ref>

Soon after its release, speculations arose that Silambarasan and Menon would collaborate for the sequel of ''Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa'', or a fresh script written by Menon.<ref>{{Cite web |date=22 May 2020 |title='Vinnaithaandi Varuvaaya 2' to be bankrolled by THIS popular producer? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vinnaithaandi-varuvaaya-2-to-be-bankrolled-by-this-popular-producer/articleshow/75888080.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519124344/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vinnaithaandi-varuvaaya-2-to-be-bankrolled-by-this-popular-producer/articleshow/75888080.cms |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=16 May 2020 |title=Simbu to join Gautham Menon for VTV 2? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-to-join-gautham-menon-for-vtv-2/articleshow/75773440.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200518233750/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-to-join-gautham-menon-for-vtv-2/articleshow/75773440.cms |archive-date=18 May 2020 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> In January 2021, Silambarasan announced his new project which will be directed by Menon with [[Ishari K. Ganesh]] of Vels Film International bankrolling the project,<ref>{{Cite web |date=28 January 2021 |title=Silambarasan TR to reunite with Gautham Menon |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-tr-to-reunite-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/80513764.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123413/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-tr-to-reunite-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/80513764.cms |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=29 January 2021 |title=Silambarasan and Gautham Menon to join hands again for new project |url=https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/silambarasan-and-gautham-menon-join-hands-again-new-project-142400 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123413/https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/silambarasan-and-gautham-menon-join-hands-again-new-project-142400 |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The News Minute]]}}</ref> thus marking the third collaboration between Menon and Silambarasan.<ref>{{Cite web |date=29 January 2021 |title=STR reunites with Gautham Menon |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbu-reunites-with-gautham-menon-7166080/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123712/https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbu-reunites-with-gautham-menon-7166080/ |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Indian Express]]}}</ref> [[A. R. Rahman]] was announced as the music composer in early February 2021,<ref>{{Cite web |date=3 February 2021 |title=AR Rahman to compose music for Silambarasan's next with Gautham Menon |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/music/ar-rahman-to-compose-music-for-silambarasans-next-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/80673866.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519214138/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/music/ar-rahman-to-compose-music-for-silambarasans-next-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/80673866.cms |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> with lyricist [[Thamarai]] also joining the technical team.<ref>{{Cite web |last=K. |first=Janani |date=4 February 2021 |title=Gautham Menon welcomes AR Rahman as composer in film with Simbu. See tweet |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/gautham-menon-welcomes-ar-rahman-as-composer-in-film-with-simbu-see-tweet-1765741-2021-02-04 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123413/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/gautham-menon-welcomes-ar-rahman-as-composer-in-film-with-simbu-see-tweet-1765741-2021-02-04 |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[India Today]]}}</ref> On Menon's birthday (25 February 2021), the makers announced the film's title as ''Nadhigalile Neeradum Suriyan'',<ref>{{Cite web |date=26 February 2021 |title=Silambarasan and Gautham Menon's new film titled 'Nadhigalilae Neeradum Suriyan' |url=https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/silambarasan-and-gautham-menons-new-film-titled-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan-144247 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123424/https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/silambarasan-and-gautham-menons-new-film-titled-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan-144247 |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The News Minute]]}}</ref> named after a line from the song "Ondra Renda Asaigal" from Menon's ''[[Kaakha Kaakha]]'' (2003).<ref>{{Cite news |date=25 February 2021 |title=Gautham Menon-Silambarasan TR film titled Nadhigalilae Neeradhum Suriyan |work=[[Cinema Express]] |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/stories/news/2021/feb/25/gautham-menon-silambarasan-tr-film-titlednadhigalilae-neeradhum-suriyan-23026.html |url-status=live |access-date=19 May 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123421/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/stories/news/2021/feb/25/gautham-menon-silambarasan-tr-film-titlednadhigalilae-neeradhum-suriyan-23026.html |archive-date=19 May 2021}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=13 April 2021 |title=Did you know, Silambarasan had suggested a controversial title for his next with Gautham Menon? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/did-you-know/did-you-know-silambarasan-had-suggested-a-controversial-title-for-his-next-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/82050325.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210519123415/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/did-you-know/did-you-know-silambarasan-had-suggested-a-controversial-title-for-his-next-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/82050325.cms |archive-date=19 May 2021 |access-date=19 May 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>

=== Pre-production ===
During the production of ''Nadhigalile Neeradum Suriyan'', Silambarasan insisted Menon to work on a raw and rustic-toned script, leading to a change in the storyline as well as the film genre.<ref>{{Cite web |last=காந்தி |first=உ சுதர்சன் |date=6 August 2021 |title='' 'அசுரன்' மாதிரி ஒரு படம் பண்ணணும்'' – சிம்புவின் ஆசைக்காக உருவாகும் 'வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு'! |url=https://cinema.vikatan.com/tamil-cinema/why-simbus-nadhigalile-neeradum-suriyan-changed-into-vendhu-thanindhadhu-kaadu |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210806142014/https://cinema.vikatan.com/tamil-cinema/why-simbus-nadhigalile-neeradum-suriyan-changed-into-vendhu-thanindhadhu-kaadu |archive-date=6 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[Ananda Vikatan]] |language=ta}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=10 August 2021 |title='Vendhu Thanidhathu Kaadu': Gautham Menon changes the film's story to satisfy Silambarasan's wish |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanidhathu-kaadu-gautham-menon-changes-the-films-story-to-satisfy-silambarasans-wish/articleshow/85206911.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033612/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanidhathu-kaadu-gautham-menon-changes-the-films-story-to-satisfy-silambarasans-wish/articleshow/85206911.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> Menon brought in the basic plotline of the novel ''Agni Kunjondru Kanden'' (inspired from a poem written by [[Subramania Bharati]]) by screenwriter [[B. Jeyamohan]],<ref>{{Cite web |date=11 July 2021 |title=Jeyamohan joins Silambarasan and Gautham Menon's 'Nadhigalilae Neeradum Suriyan' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/jeyamohan-joins-silambarasan-and-gautham-menons-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan/articleshow/84315479.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210712192620/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/jeyamohan-joins-silambarasan-and-gautham-menons-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan/articleshow/84315479.cms |archive-date=12 July 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> instead of a fresh script he planned.<ref>{{Cite web |date=8 July 2021 |title=Gautham ropes in Jeyamohan for 'Nadhigalilae Neeradum Suriyan' |url=https://www.sify.com/movies/gautham-ropes-in-jeyamohan-for-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan-news-tamil-vhikv1fiibcbc.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210708201140/https://www.sify.com/movies/gautham-ropes-in-jeyamohan-for-nadhigalilae-neeradum-suriyan-news-tamil-vhikv1fiibcbc.html |archive-date=8 July 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[Sify]]}}</ref> On 6 August 2021, Menon announced the film's new title ''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'', also named from one of the lines from the same poem written by Bharati.<ref>{{Cite web |date=6 August 2021 |title=Simbu's next with Gautham Vasudev Menon titled Vendhu Thaninthathu Kaadu, see first look |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbu-next-with-gautham-vasudev-menon-titled-vendhu-thaninthathu-kaadu-see-first-look-7441527/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210806115026/https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbu-next-with-gautham-vasudev-menon-titled-vendhu-thaninthathu-kaadu-see-first-look-7441527/ |archive-date=6 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[The Indian Express]]}}</ref> The first look also released on the same day, featuring Silambarasan in a rustic avatar. He had reportedly lost 15 kilos for his role in the film.<ref name="15 kilos" /> Ganesh described his role as "a character he hasn't done before".<ref name="15 kilos" /> In the same month, [[Kayadu Lohar]] was announced as the lead actress.<ref>{{Cite web |date=10 August 2021 |title=Kayadu Lohar to play the female lead in Gautham Menon-Simbu's next? |url=https://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/tamil/2021/aug/10/kayadu-lohar-to-play-the-female-lead-in-gautham-menon-simbus-next-2342441.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210811050519/https://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/tamil/2021/aug/10/kayadu-lohar-to-play-the-female-lead-in-gautham-menon-simbus-next-2342441.html |archive-date=11 August 2021 |access-date=11 August 2021 |website=[[The New Indian Express]]}}</ref> However, the role went to [[Siddhi Idnani]] in January 2022.<ref name="Idnani" />

Director-cinematographer [[Siddhartha Nuni]], who worked in the [[Kannada]] film ''[[Lucia (film)|Lucia]]'' (2013) was hired for the project, along with [[Anthony (film editor)|Anthony]], who regularly collaborated with Menon in his previous ventures, handled the editing works.<ref name="15 kilos" /> Silambarasan shared a picture on social media revealing his current transformation for the film, to quell rumours that the first look was "[[photoshopped]]".<ref name="photoshopped" /> A report from ''[[The Times of India]]'' stated that the actor had hired a special instructor to reduce his weight for the past six months and had also trained for the stunt sequences too.<ref name="photoshopped" /> The film's cast further included Malayalam actors [[Siddique (actor)|Siddique]] and [[Neeraj Madhav]], playing pivotal roles in the film.<ref name="Siddique" /><ref name="Madhav" />

The film revolves around the plight of migrant workers, which is Menon's first attempt on portraying the tale of marginalised section in the society.<ref>{{Cite web |date=10 December 2021 |title=Watch: Teaser of Gautham Menon-Simbu's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu is out |url=https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/watch-teaser-gautham-menon-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-out-158580 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210091137/https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/watch-teaser-gautham-menon-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-out-158580 |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The News Minute]]}}</ref> Menon also stated that Silambarasan would be seen in five different looks as the film narrates his journey from teenage to adulthood.<ref>{{Cite web |date=24 January 2022 |title=Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanidhathu Kaadu' will be similar to Suriya's 'Vaaranam Aayiram' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasans-vendhu-thanidhathu-kaadu-will-be-similar-to-suriyas-vaaranam-aayiram/articleshow/89091091.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220124123431/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasans-vendhu-thanidhathu-kaadu-will-be-similar-to-suriyas-vaaranam-aayiram/articleshow/89091091.cms |archive-date=24 January 2022 |access-date=24 January 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> Jeyamohan said the film would not be a full-fledged rural action drama like ''Asuran'', but a portion of it would be set in a rural backdrop, and the film will also feature urban portions. He added that the film would be rustic tonally, with the style of Menon's earlier directorial ventures.<ref>{{Cite news |date=6 August 2021 |title=சிம்புவின் வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு: படத்தலைப்பில் ஏன் திடீர் மாற்றம்? |language=ta |work=[[BBC News]] |url=https://www.bbc.com/tamil/arts-and-culture-58115111 |url-status=live |access-date=9 August 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033751/https://www.bbc.com/tamil/arts-and-culture-58115111 |archive-date=10 August 2021}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=6 August 2021 |title=சிம்பு – கெளதம் மேனன் இணையும் வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு |url=https://www.hindutamil.in/news/cinema/tamil-cinema/701912-simbu-and-gauthem-menon-join-hands-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033800/https://www.hindutamil.in/news/cinema/tamil-cinema/701912-simbu-and-gauthem-menon-join-hands-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu.html |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[Hindu Tamil Thisai]] |language=ta}}</ref> Menon stated that the film will be on the lines of ''[[Vaaranam Aayiram]]'', and will see Silambarasan in five different looks as the film progresses from his teenage to adulthood.<ref>{{Cite web |date=21 August 2021 |title=Gautham Menon: Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu will be nothing like anything I've done so far |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2021/aug/21/gautham-menon-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-will-be-nothing-like-anything-ive-done-so-far-26185.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220223115239/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2021/aug/21/gautham-menon-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-will-be-nothing-like-anything-ive-done-so-far-26185.html |archive-date=23 February 2022 |access-date=23 February 2022 |website=[[Cinema Express]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=25 January 2022 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu to be on the lines of Vaaranam Aayiram! |url=https://www.moviecrow.com/News/29866/vtk-release-date-simbu-gautham-menon |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220127041043/https://www.moviecrow.com/News/29866/vtk-release-date-simbu-gautham-menon |archive-date=27 January 2022 |access-date=23 February 2022 |website=Moviecrow}}</ref>

=== Filming ===
Principal photography began on 7 August 2021 at [[Tiruchendur]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 August 2021 |title=அசுரன் போன்ற கதையல்ல 'வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு' – எழுத்தாளர் ஜெயமோகன் |url=https://tamil.news18.com/news/entertainment/venthu-thaninthathu-kaadu-movie-is-not-like-asuran-movie-says-jayamohan-jbr-tmn-528107.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033756/https://tamil.news18.com/nodeapi/pv-candidate |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[News18]] |language=ta}}</ref> On 23 August 2021, shooting was suspended due to the tussle between [[Tamil Film Producers Council]] (TFPC) and [[Film Employees Federation of South India]] (FEFSI), as several producers filed complaints against Silambarasan in the past over his failure to commit to the projects he signed and also demanded for compensation.<ref>{{Cite web |date=23 August 2021 |title=Simbu's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' shooting gets cancelled! - Know Why |url=https://www.indiaglitz.com/simbu-latest-movie-update-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shooting-cancelled-gautham-vasudev-menon-tfpc-fefsi-split-producers-complaint-radhika-ar-rahman-tamil-news-293578 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180245/https://www.indiaglitz.com/simbu-latest-movie-update-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shooting-cancelled-gautham-vasudev-menon-tfpc-fefsi-split-producers-complaint-radhika-ar-rahman-tamil-news-293578 |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=IndiaGlitz}}</ref> Following Ganesh's assurance to compensate the producers, shooting resumed on 26 August,<ref name="resume" /><ref>{{Cite web |date=27 August 2021 |title=Silambarasan awes fans with the second look of 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-awes-fans-with-the-second-look-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85681447.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033622/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-awes-fans-with-the-second-look-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85681447.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> with the second schedule beginning in [[Chennai]].<ref>{{Cite web |last=Palisetty |first=Ramya |date=26 August 2021 |title=Silambarasan begins second schedule of Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu, shares pic |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/silambarasan-begins-second-schedule-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shares-pic-1845698-2021-08-26 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180245/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/silambarasan-begins-second-schedule-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shares-pic-1845698-2021-08-26 |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[India Today]]}}</ref>

On 20 September 2021, the makers announced that the second schedule had been completed.<ref>{{Cite web |date=21 September 2021 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu second schedule wrapped up |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-second-schedule-wrapped-up/articleshow/86396063.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210185130/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-second-schedule-wrapped-up/articleshow/86396063.cms |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> The team took a brief break, following Silambarasan's involvement's in the post-production of ''[[Maanaadu]]'' and on 18 October, Silambarasan went to [[Mumbai]] to begin the third schedule.<ref>{{Cite web |date=18 October 2021 |title=Silambarasan jets off to Mumbai for the next schedule of 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-jets-off-to-mumbai-for-the-next-schedule-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/87100384.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033618/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-jets-off-to-mumbai-for-the-next-schedule-of-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/87100384.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=18 October 2021 |title=Silambarasan TR's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu ready to roll in Mumbai; Details Inside |url=https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/south/silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-ready-roll-mumbai-details-inside-920335 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210181738/https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/south/silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-ready-roll-mumbai-details-inside-920335 |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[Pinkvilla]]}}</ref> It was reported that the team had planned to resume the shooting in Chennai and had constructed a set resembling Mumbai, in a private film studio.<ref name="month-long" /> Hollywood-based stunt choreographer Lee Whittaker was hired for the action sequences, joined the schedule in Mumbai on mid-October.<ref>{{Cite web |date=23 October 2021 |title=Gautham ropes in Lee Whittaker for Silambarasan TR's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'! |url=https://www.sify.com/movies/gautham-ropes-in-lee-whittaker-for-silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-news-tamil-vkxkNgiceejaa.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180234/https://www.sify.com/movies/gautham-ropes-in-lee-whittaker-for-silambarasan-trs-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-news-tamil-vkxkNgiceejaa.html |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[Sify]]}}</ref> The team had several complications on the film's production in Mumbai, citing the difficulties in travel due to pandemic and weather conditions, and decided to begin the final schedule in Chennai for more than 25 days.<ref name="month-long" /> However, contrary to the earlier statements, the final schedule began on 7 December 2021 in Mumbai.<ref>{{Cite web |date=7 December 2021 |title=Silambarasan resumes shooting for Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu in Mumbai |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-resumes-shooting-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-in-mumbai/articleshow/88139865.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033614/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/silambarasan-resumes-shooting-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-in-mumbai/articleshow/88139865.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>

On 11 December, Silambarasan was hospitalised in Chennai due to a viral infection, resulting in shooting being stalled for a few days.<ref>{{Cite web |last=K. |first=Janani |date=11 December 2021 |title=Simbu hospitalised in Chennai due to viral infection |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/simbu-hospitalised-in-chennai-due-to-viral-infection-1886727-2021-12-11 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211213200743/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/simbu-hospitalised-in-chennai-due-to-viral-infection-1886727-2021-12-11 |archive-date=13 December 2021 |access-date=24 January 2022 |website=[[India Today]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=11 December 2021 |title=Simbu admitted to hospital for viral infection; discharged later |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-admitted-to-hospital-for-viral-infection-discharged-later/articleshow/88226855.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220125053558/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-admitted-to-hospital-for-viral-infection-discharged-later/articleshow/88226855.cms |archive-date=25 January 2022 |access-date=25 January 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> A minor shooting schedule was later held in Chennai on 3 January 2022, and took place for 10 days.<ref name="Idnani" /> By 13 January 2022, the Chennai shooting schedule has been wrapped and was informed that the team will return to Mumbai for the final schedule which involves few patchwork scenes.<ref name="ChennaiWrap" /> A source from the production team stated that the shooting in Mumbai, will be stalled for some time due to the rise in [[COVID-19]] infections in the city, and will be planned appropriately only after the restrictions being lifted. As of mid-January, 50% of the film has been completed.<ref name="ChennaiWrap" /> The third and final schedule began in Mumbai on 9 February 2022.<ref>{{Cite web |date=10 February 2022 |title=Team 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' shoots the last leg of the film; Silambarasan shares a picture |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/team-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shoots-for-the-last-leg-of-the-film-silambarasan-shares-a-picture/articleshow/89470265.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220210053432/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/team-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shoots-for-the-last-leg-of-the-film-silambarasan-shares-a-picture/articleshow/89470265.cms |archive-date=10 February 2022 |access-date=23 February 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> Filming completely [[Wrap (filmmaking)|wrapped]] on 15 April 2022.<ref>{{Cite web |date=15 April 2022 |title=It's a wrap for Gautham Menon- Silambarasan's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/apr/15/its-a-wrap-for-gautham-menon--silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-30903.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220415134540/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/apr/15/its-a-wrap-for-gautham-menon--silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-30903.html |archive-date=15 April 2022 |access-date=15 April 2022 |website=[[Cinema Express]]}}</ref>

== Music ==
The music for the film is composed by A. R. Rahman in his third collaboration with Menon after ''[[Vinnaithaandi Varuvaayaa]]'' (2010) and ''[[Achcham Yenbadhu Madamaiyada]]'' (2016) and fourth collaboration with Silambarasan after the former movies and ''[[Chekka Chivantha Vaanam]]'' (2018).<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 December 2021 |title=Rajinikanth, Kamal Haasan, and Ajith connection in Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' glimpse |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/rajinikanth-kamal-haasan-and-ajith-connection-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-glimpse/articleshow/88182936.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211209075528/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/rajinikanth-kamal-haasan-and-ajith-connection-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-glimpse/articleshow/88182936.cms |archive-date=9 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref> The audio rights were purchased by [[Think Music]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=8 December 2021 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu shooting resumes! Audio rights bagged! |url=https://www.moviecrow.com/News/29636/vtk-update-simbu-gautham-menon-ar-rahman |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210180235/https://www.moviecrow.com/News/29636/vtk-update-simbu-gautham-menon-ar-rahman |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=Moviecrow}}</ref> The first single "Kaalathukkum Nee Venum" was released on 6 May 2022.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2022-05-06 |title=First single 'Kaalathukkum Nee Venum' from Simbu's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' is out now! |url=https://m.timesofindia.com/entertainment/tamil/music/first-single-kaalathukkum-nee-venum-from-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-is-out-now/articleshow/91378104.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220527162811/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/music/first-single-kaalathukkum-nee-venum-from-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-is-out-now/articleshow/91378104.cms?from=mdr |archive-date=27 May 2022 |access-date=2022-05-06 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>

{{Track listing
| total_length = 18:41
| extra_column = Singer(s)
| title1 = Kaalathukkum Nee Venum
| lyrics1 = [[Thamarai]]
| extra1 = [[Silambarasan]], [[Rakshita Suresh]]
| length1 = 4:54
| title2 = Muthu's Journey
| lyrics2 = Thamarai
| extra2 = [[A.R. Rahman]]
| length2 = 1:22
| title3 = Marakuma Nenjam
| lyrics3 = Thamarai
| extra3 = A.R.Rahman
| length3 = 4:18
| title4 = Unna Nenachadhum
| lyrics4 = Thamarai
| extra4 = [[Shreya Ghoshal]], Sarthak Kalyani
| length4 = 3:56
| title5 = Mallipoo
| lyrics5 = Thamarai
| extra5 = [[Madhushree]]
| length5 = 4:05
}}

== Release ==
=== Theatrical ===
The film was released in theatres on 15 September 2022,<ref>{{Cite news |date=29 June 2022 |title=Gautham Vasudev Menon's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' to hit screens on September 15 |work=[[The New Indian Express]] |agency=[[Indo-Asian News Service|IANS]] |url=https://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/tamil/2022/jun/29/gautham-vasudev-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-to-hit-screens-on-september-15-2471047.html |url-status=live |access-date=29 June 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220629095622/https://www.newindianexpress.com/entertainment/tamil/2022/jun/29/gautham-vasudev-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-to-hit-screens-on-september-15-2471047.html |archive-date=29 June 2022}}</ref> by [[Red Giant Movies]].<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 July 2022 |title=Red Giant Movies to distribute Gautham Menon- Simbu's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu in Tamil Nadu |url=https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/jul/09/red-giant-movies-to-distribute-gautham-menon-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-in-tamil-nadu-32639.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220715150637/https://www.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/news/2022/jul/09/red-giant-movies-to-distribute-gautham-menon-simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-in-tamil-nadu-32639.html |archive-date=15 July 2022 |access-date=15 July 2022 |website=[[Cinema Express]] |language=en}}</ref>

=== Home media ===
Initially, there were reports suggesting that the film's digital rights were acquired by [[Aha (streaming service)|Aha Tamil]],<ref>{{Cite web |date=21 April 2022 |title=Exclusive: Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu OTT Rights |url=https://www.moviecrow.com/News/30346/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-ott-rights |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220714065508/https://www.moviecrow.com/News/30346/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-ott-rights |archive-date=14 July 2022 |access-date=14 July 2022 |website=Moviecrow}}</ref> but later it was announced that [[Amazon Prime Video]] had done so.<ref>{{Cite web |date=28 June 2022 |title=போடு வெடிய.. 'வெந்து தணிந்தது காடு' படத்தின் OTT உரிமை.. கைப்பற்றிய உலகின் முன்னணி நிறுவனம்? |url=https://m.behindwoods.com/ta/tamil-movies-cinema-news-ta/str-venthu-thaninthathu-kaadu-digital-rights-acquired-by-amazon-prime.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220729133505/https://m.behindwoods.com/ta/tamil-movies-cinema-news-ta/str-venthu-thaninthathu-kaadu-digital-rights-acquired-by-amazon-prime.html |archive-date=29 July 2022 |access-date=14 July 2022 |website=Behindwoods |language=ta}}</ref>

== Reception ==
=== Critical response ===
''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'' received positive reviews from critics and audience.<ref>{{cite web |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu box office collection Day 1: Silambarasan-Gautham Menon’s film opens to a promising start|url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-box-office-collection-day-1-silambarasan-gautham-menons-film-opens-to-a-promising-start/|website=[[The Indian Express]]|access-date=17 September 2022|quote=As far as the critical response to the film goes, Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu has received predominantly positive reviews for its unique take on the usual gangster origin story. However, the climax of the film was criticised as hurried and confusing.}}</ref>

Nidhima Taneja of ''[[The Print]]'' rated the film 3.5 out of 5 stars and wrote "It is the journey of the most incomprehensible — or an underdog if you will — man in the pyramid that makes ''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'' worth a watch".<ref>{{cite web |title=A power-packed tale of self-discovery, Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu is among Kollywood’s best |url=https://theprint.in/features/reel-take/a-power-packed-tale-of-self-discovery-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-is-among-kollywoods-best/1130773/ |publisher=[[The Print]] |access-date=17 September 2022}}</ref> Sowmya Rajendran of ''[[The News Minute]]'' rated the film 3.5 out of 5 stars and wrote "Gautham Vasudev Menon’s film has all the familiar material that you expect from a gangster film but also a few departures and inclusions that keep things engrossing".<ref>{{cite web|title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu review: Gautham Menon returns to form in Simbu gangster film|url=https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-review-gautham-menon-returns-form-simbu-gangster-film-167911%3famp|website=[[The News Minute]]|access-date=15 September 2022}}</ref> Karthik Keramalu of ''[[Firstpost]]'' rated the film 3.5 out of 5 stars and wrote "The movie humanizes the lives of gangsters who’re at the bottom of the chain".<ref>{{cite web |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu movie review: Simbu is terrific as a reluctant gangster |url=https://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-simbu-is-terrific-as-a-reluctant-gangster-11265331.html |website=[[Firstpost]] |access-date=17 September 2022}}</ref> M. Suganth of ''[[The Times of India]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and called it "an uneven gangster saga that works in parts".<ref>{{Cite web |last=Suganth |first=M. |date=15 September 2022 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Movie Review : A terrific Silambarasan shoulders an uneven gangster saga that works in parts |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movie-reviews/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/movie-review/94213272.cms |access-date=15 September 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]] |archive-date=15 September 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220915042420/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movie-reviews/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/movie-review/94213272.cms |url-status=live }}</ref> Kirubhakar Purushothaman of ''[[The Indian Express]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and wrote "''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'' begins on a great note and keeps the momentum till the interval only to drop the ball in the climax.<ref>{{cite web|title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu movie review: Gautham Menon-Simbu film is done in by half measures|url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-gauthama-menon-simbus-film-8152208/|website=[[The Indian Express]]|access-date=15 September 2022}}</ref> ''[[Pinkvilla]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and wrote "''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu'' is an entertaining gangster drama that has some amazing performances in place".<ref>{{cite web |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Movie Review: Gautham Menon's film makes Simbu give his career-best performance|url=https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/south/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-gautham-menons-film-makes-simbu-give-his-career-best-performance-1190321?amp|website=[[Pinkvilla]]|access-date=15 September 2022}}</ref> Janani K. of ''[[India Today]]'' rated the film 2.5 out of 5 stars and wrote "''Vendhu Thanindhadhu Kaadu'' could have been Simbu’s ''[[Pudhupettai]]'', but it falls short by a few miles. The second half could have been more nuanced".<ref>{{Cite web |last=K. |first=Janani |date=15 September 2022 |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Movie Review: Simbu’s terrific acting saves GVM’s gangster origin film |url=https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-simbu-s-terrific-acting-saves-gvm-s-gangster-origin-film-2000401-2022-09-15 |access-date=15 September 2022 |website=[[India Today]] |archive-date=15 September 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220915044611/https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/regional-cinema/story/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-simbu-s-terrific-acting-saves-gvm-s-gangster-origin-film-2000401-2022-09-15 |url-status=live }}</ref> Srivatsan S of ''[[The Hindu]]'' wrote "The biggest positive has got to be how well-rounded the screenplay structure is: where it begins is where the film also ends."<ref>{{cite web|url= https://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/reviews/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-simbu-and-gautham-menon-are-superb-in-this-very-ordinary-gangster-drama/article65893782.ece|title=‘Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu’ movie review: Simbu and Gautham Menon are superb in this very ordinary gangster drama|website=[[The Hindu]]|access-date=15 September 2022|archive-date=16 September 2022}}</ref>

A critic for ''[[Deccan Herald]]'' rated 3 out of 5 and wrote "The template of a small-town man getting sucked into the criminal world isn’t new. Gautham reinvents it and he has a great partner in crime in Simbu. It’s a great combination."<ref>{{cite web|title= 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' review: Gautham Menon returns to form|url= https://www.deccanherald.com/entertainment/entertainment-news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-review-gautham-menon-returns-to-form-1145417.html|website=[[Deccan Herald]]|access-date=15 September 2022|archive-date=16 September 2022}}</ref> Sowndarya Athimuthu of ''[[The Quint]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and wrote "Though ''Vendhu Thanindhadhu Kaadu'' might come across as a usual gangster saga, it is a unique attempt from Gautham Vasudev Menon, who submits to writer Jeyamohan’s vision".<ref>{{cite web|title=‘Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu’ Review: Simbu, AR Rahman Shine in This Gangster Saga|url=https://www.thequint.com/amp/story/entertainment/movie-reviews/vendhu-thanindhadhu-kaadu-life-of-muthu-movie-review-silambarasan-tr-simbu-gautham-vasudev-menon-ar-rahman|website=[[The Quint]]|access-date=16 September 2022}}</ref> Sudhir Srinivasan of ''[[Cinema Express]]'' rated the film 3 out of 5 stars and wrote "''VTK'' shows plenty of potential, and the disappointment is that it doesn’t quite hit as many highs as you would expect".<ref>{{cite web |title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Movie Review: Scorching promise, middling results|url=https://www.m.cinemaexpress.com/tamil/review/2022/sep/15/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-movie-review-scorching-promise-middling-results-34718.amp|website=[[Cinema Express]]|access-date=16 September 2022}}</ref>

=== Box office ===
On the first day of its release, the film grossed over {{INR}}12 crore worldwide with the film collecting over {{INR}}8.25 crore in [[Tamil Nadu]].<ref>{{cite web|title=Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu first day box office collections; Highest opening day ever for Silambarasan|url=https://www.pinkvilla.com/entertainment/box-office/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-first-day-box-office-collections-highest-opening-day-ever-for-silambarasan-1190502 |website=[[Pinkvilla]]|access-date=16 September 2022|archive-date=17 September 2022}}</ref> The film grossed over {{INR|44}} crore and became one of the [[List of Tamil films of 2022|highest grossing Tamil films]] of the year.<ref name = "Bo" />

== Legal issues ==
Before the production of the film, several producers had filed a complaint against Silambarasan at the [[Tamil Film Producers Council]] (TFPC) for not working on the projects he had advanced before the shoot.<ref name="face-off" /> Global Infotainment's [[S. Michael Rayappan|Michael Rayappan]] too criticised Silambarasan, after failing to compensate the losses incurred during the production of ''[[Anbanavan Asaradhavan Adangadhavan]]'' (2017).<ref name="face-off" /> As a result, the Tamil Film Producers Council issued a red card against Silambarasan following the complaints and also insisted the [[Film Employees Federation of South India]] (FEFSI) to stop the production works on the film. However, FEFSI had supported the film because Ishari K. Ganesh had helped the association in several ways during the COVID-19 lockdown.<ref>{{Cite web |date=9 August 2021 |title=FEFSI in trouble for supporting Silambarasan TR's film? |url=https://www.sify.com/movies/fefsi-in-trouble-for-supporting-silambarasan-trs-film-news-tamil-vijeXydfhgjfd.html |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033748/https://www.sify.com/movies/fefsi-in-trouble-for-supporting-silambarasan-trs-film-news-tamil-vijeXydfhgjfd.html |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[Sify]]}}</ref> It eventually resulted in the split between TFPC and FEFSI, and the shooting was disrupted following this incident.<ref name="face-off" /><ref>{{Cite news |date=9 August 2021 |title=TFPC, FEFSI heading for a showdown |work=[[The Hindu]] |url=https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/tfpc-fefsi-heading-for-a-showdown/article35805803.ece |url-status=live |access-date=9 August 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033748/https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/tfpc-fefsi-heading-for-a-showdown/article35805803.ece |archive-date=10 August 2021}}</ref> Fans of Silambarasan eventually supported the actor and condemned TFPC's actions;<ref name="Netizens" /> they started using the [[hashtag]] "#SaveTamilCinemafromTFPC" eventually being trending for two days on Twitter.<ref name="Netizens" /> Later, on 26 August 2021, Ganesh admitted to pay the requested amount on behalf of the actor in order to resume shooting; an assurance letter was submitted to the producers council.<ref name="resume" />

== Sequel ==
The complete title ''Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu Part I: The Kindling'' was unveiled in early September, confirming that a sequel was in development.<ref>{{Cite web |date=3 September 2022 |title=Simbu’s Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu sequel confirmed: ‘The story does not end with this’ |url=https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-sequel-confirmed-the-story-does-not-end-with-this/ |access-date=15 September 2022 |website=[[The Indian Express]] |archive-date=14 September 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220914195354/https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/tamil/simbus-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-sequel-confirmed-the-story-does-not-end-with-this/ |url-status=live }}</ref>

== References ==
{{reflist|refs=
<ref name="Idnani">{{Cite web |date=31 December 2021 |title=Siddhi Idnani is Silambarasan's pair in Gautham Menon's Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/siddhi-idnani-is-silambarasans-pair-in-gautham-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/88623502.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220101031330/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/siddhi-idnani-is-silambarasans-pair-in-gautham-menons-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/88623502.cms |archive-date=1 January 2022 |access-date=4 January 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="Siddique">{{Cite web |date=20 September 2021 |title=Malayalam actor Siddique to play the antagonist in Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/malayalam-actor-siddique-to-play-the-antagonist-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/86368192.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211001102327/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/malayalam-actor-siddique-to-play-the-antagonist-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/86368192.cms |archive-date=1 October 2021 |access-date=1 October 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="Madhav">{{Cite web |date=15 November 2021 |title=Neeraj Madhav to play a crucial role in Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/neeraj-madhav-to-play-a-crucial-role-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/87718754.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033620/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/neeraj-madhav-to-play-a-crucial-role-in-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/87718754.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="15 kilos">{{Cite web |last=CR |first=Sharanya |date=7 August 2021 |title=STR loses 15 kilos for his action drama with Gautham Menon |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/str-loses-15-kilos-for-his-action-drama-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/85104248.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033747/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/str-loses-15-kilos-for-his-action-drama-with-gautham-menon/articleshow/85104248.cms |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="photoshopped">{{Cite web |date=13 August 2021 |title=Simbu answers doubters with pic of his slimmed down body for Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-answers-doubters-by-sharing-pic-of-his-slimmed-down-body-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85301575.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033615/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/simbu-answers-doubters-by-sharing-pic-of-his-slimmed-down-body-for-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/85301575.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="resume">{{Cite web |date=26 August 2021 |title='Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' shooting resumes today after Ishari Ganesh assures to pay for Silambarasan TR |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shooting-resumes-today-after-ishari-ganesh-assures-to-pay-for-silambarasan-tr/articleshow/85650154.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210190639/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-shooting-resumes-today-after-ishari-ganesh-assures-to-pay-for-silambarasan-tr/articleshow/85650154.cms |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="month-long">{{Cite web |last=Praveenkumar |first=K |date=9 November 2021 |title='Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' to have a month-long final schedule |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-to-have-a-month-long-final-schedule/articleshow/87602570.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211211033617/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu-to-have-a-month-long-final-schedule/articleshow/87602570.cms |archive-date=11 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="ChennaiWrap">{{Cite web |date=13 January 2022 |title=It's a wrap for the Chennai schedule of Silambarasan's 'Vendhu Thanindhathu Kaadu' |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/its-a-wrap-for-the-chennai-schedule-of-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/88873670.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220113085621/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/its-a-wrap-for-the-chennai-schedule-of-silambarasans-vendhu-thanindhathu-kaadu/articleshow/88873670.cms |archive-date=13 January 2022 |access-date=24 January 2022 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="face-off">{{Cite web |last=Suganth |first=M. |date=8 August 2021 |title=Is Silambarasan the reason behind the recent face-off between TFPC and FEFSI? |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/is-silambarasan-the-reason-behind-the-recent-face-off-between-tfpc-and-fefsi/articleshow/85154108.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210810033747/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/is-silambarasan-the-reason-behind-the-recent-face-off-between-tfpc-and-fefsi/articleshow/85154108.cms |archive-date=10 August 2021 |access-date=9 August 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
<ref name="Netizens">{{Cite web |date=13 August 2021 |title=Netizens extend support to Silambarasan in the producer council issue |url=https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/netizens-extend-support-to-silambarasan-in-the-producer-council-issue/articleshow/85294413.cms |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211210190637/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news/netizens-extend-support-to-silambarasan-in-the-producer-council-issue/articleshow/85294413.cms |archive-date=10 December 2021 |access-date=10 December 2021 |website=[[The Times of India]]}}</ref>
}}

== External links ==
* {{IMDb title|id=14182646}}

{{Gautham Vasudev Menon}}

[[Category:Film productions suspended due to the COVID-19 pandemic]]
[[Category:Films directed by Gautham Vasudev Menon]]
[[Category:Films scored by A. R. Rahman]]
[[Category:Indian action drama films]]
[[Category:Indian gangster films]]

Channar revolt

2022-01-30T16:32:48Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes to cover their breasts.

==Background==
In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s and [[Ezhava]]s, had to bare their chest in the presence of members of the higher-ranked [[Nair]] caste, who in turn had to do so in the presence of the people who are still higher-class than them.<ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|url=https://books.google.co.in/books?id=HzlkWtM9IJYC|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|page=216|isbn=9780198036951}}</ref>

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of still higher-ranked communities,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the upper-class women, to punctuate their low status. Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the brahmin breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel John Munro, British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread pollution in the state. Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Channar revolt

2022-01-23T17:02:26Z

Mayan302: Undid revision 1067382584 by 2402:3A80:50B:E8CA:7287:4CF9:2493:CD30 (talk)

{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes to cover their breasts.

==Background==
In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s and [[Ezhava]]s, had to bare their chest in the presence of members of the higher-ranked [[Nair]] caste, who in turn had to do so in the presence of the still higher ranked [[Nambudiri Brahmin]]s. The Brahmins, being at the pinnacle of the Hindu ritual ranking system known as [[varna (Hinduism)|varna]], bared their chest only in the presence of a deity.<ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of a still higher-ranked community,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the non-Brahmin women{{Citation needed|date=May 2020|reason=Exact page needed}}
, to punctuate their low status. Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the Nair breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel John Munro, British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread pollution in the state. Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Nadan (subcaste)

2022-01-02T16:48:36Z

Mayan302: pov pushing. reverting.

{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
'''Nadans''' (also referred as '''Nelamaikkarar''') are a small [[endogamy|endogamous]] group of aristocratic [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] from the regions south of the [[Thamirabarani River]] in the present-day state of [[Tamil Nadu]], India. They were hereditary tax collectors during the [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] and [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan]] dynasties and also served as petty lords under the [[Palaiyakkarar|poligars]]. The Nadans possessed vast tracts of land and were one of the few subcastes among the Nadars to have practiced [[aristocracy]]. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–33| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==History==
As hereditary tax collectors, the Nadans held civil authority over the lands in their control. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''. The [[Nadar climber]]s were totally dependent on these powerful landlords and treated them with great respect. In the regions dominated by the Nadans, even the [[Vellalar]] accountant or the [[Brahmin]] priest would show deference to the position of the Nadan lords. They rode horses and would buy slaves to work in their houses to retain their proud customs. The Nadan women followed strict gosha, revealing themselves only to the men of their own household, and rode in covered [[palanquin]]s. The Nadans built Hindu temples and also met the costs of festival expenses. The oldest and highest Nadans were the '''Adityans''' of Kayamozhi, who claimed they were the descendants of [[Surya]], the sun god. The Adityans also had special rights at the [[Shiva]] temple in [[Thiruchendur]], where they constructed one of its pavilions. They usually donated the huge wooden car to the temple and in return were given the privilege to be the first to touch the rope which would pull the car through the streets during festival times.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234</ref>

Despite their great wealth and power the Nadans, however, were considered as a portion of the greater class of Nadars and were denied entrance into temples built by higher castes. The Nadans shared the pollution of the lowest climbers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu">[https://books.google.com/books?id=YCJuAAAAMAAJ&q=manadu&dq=manadu&hl=en&ei=46yaTe7IJMrWrQfD75X3Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA] Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu</ref>{{Page needed|date=February 2019}} The Nadans would not enter Hindu temples built by higher castes until the issue was solved through campaigning movements and legislation. They claim that they were stripped of their rights and privileges due to the Nayak invasion.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240</ref> The Nadar community was then divided into different opposing groups, with each Nadar climber owing allegiance to a Nadan family. The control of the lands may pass from one Nadan to another but the climbers remained always with the trees assigned to them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=31| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

===Opposing Christianity===
In 1680, the first congregation of Nadars was started at Vadakkankulam with the conversion of a Nadar woman. The Nadar converts came neither from the lowest sections (''Kalla Shanar'') of the castes nor from the highest (''Nadans''), but from the middle subgroups and particularly the climbers. The converts were provided protection by the missionaries from the oppressions of Nadan landlords. With their traditional dominance threatened, the Nadans became the missionaries' greatest adversaries. Many Nadans supported anti-Christian societies such as the Vibuthi Sangam(the Sacred Ashes Society). However, by the 1860s the opposition of the Nadans began to wane. Eventually a few Nadans actually converted to [[Christianity]].<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=51| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper">[https://books.google.com/books?id=cecLBU_oRTcC&pg=PA14&dq=middle+nadar+azariah&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=nadans&f=false In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper]</ref>

===Nadars of Travancore===
The Nadar climbers of [[Southern Travancore]] served as [[Borassus|palmyra]] climbers on the lands of aristocratic Nadans in the eastern portion of [[Kanniyakumari]]. In the tradition of these Nadan families, the lands were bestowed by the kings of Travancore in return for the Nadans' services.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=56| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==Distinctions within the Nadar community today==
During the 1960s, the Nadan families had some aura of aristocracy and authority. The distinctions that separated them from the rest of the Nadar community were largely gone, as the Nadar climbers gained wealth.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=219| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The once Nadar climbers are today widely into education, business and other important fields.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234"/>

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Nadan (Nadar Subcaste)}}
[[Category:Nadar (caste)]]

Nadan (subcaste)

2021-12-30T16:22:03Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref. reverting

Talk:Channar revolt

2021-07-11T18:19:56Z

Mayan302: /* Unreliable sources and twisted information */

{{WP India| class=Start | importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Feminism|class=Start|importance=Low}}
{{dyktalk|28 October|2008|entry=... that women '''[[Upper cloth revolt|baring their breasts]]''' in front of higher class people and deities was considered a sign of respect in the 19th-century [[Travancore]] kingdom in [[South India]]?|views=10808}}
__ToC__

==Nadar descend from Dravidian Tamil Villavar aristocracy==
Nadar/ Chanar descend from the [[Villavar]] aristocracy who founded the [[Chera dynasty]] and [[Pandyan Kingdom]] in the prehistory. [[Mahabharat]] (1500 BC) mention the [[Pandya Kingdom]] and its [[Villavar]] King Sarangha dwaja (Sarangha= Bow Dhwaja = flag). Laterday kingdoms such as
[[Pandyan kingdom]] [[Chera Kingdom]] and [[Alupas]] are [[Villavar]] kingdoms too.
Chanar (Chan = Iron Weapom), Eyinar or Enadhi (Archers) are subsects. Nadalvar or Nadar was the title of Pandyan aristocracy. In the [[Alupas]] Pandyan Kingdom the aristocracy could be Nadava or Nadavaru (Nadalvar). In the [[Chera Dynasty]] the king was called Villavar Kon. In the Karnataka /[[ Tulunadu]] the [[Villavar]] people are called [[Billava]] . [[Villavar]] and their seagoing relatives the [[Meenavar]] (not the modern) founded all these kingdoms which might have been in existence for more than 8000 years. The degradation of Chanar/ Nadar is the result of the rise of Muslim power in kerala and Tamil Nadu. Nadars are ethnic Tamils and of pure Dravidian stock. The fall of [[Chera Kingdom]] of [[Villavar]] occurred when the powerful Sulthanates of [[Bhagdad]] started dominating the seaways of the Arabian ocean and a colony was established at Malabar. Many of the laterday Keralites descend from Non Dravidians. Some of them were North Indians and Nepalese people while others were foreigners. Nairs are people of Naga stock who migrated from [[Ahichatra]]m in the Indo Nepalese border alongwith Aryan Namboothiris around 345 Ad to Karnataka. According to the records of Tulu Brahmins , the Gramapaddati and [[Keralolpathi]] [[Kadamba]] king [[Mayuravarma]] the arch enemy of Chera king Neduncheralathan brought Nagas and Aryans from [[Ahichatra]]m in 345 AD to [[Banavasi]] in Karnataka. These Naga heriditary bonded slaves were called Bunta in Karnataka . The [[Bunt (community)]] of Karnataka could desend from these Nagas of Nepal ([[Newar]]). The Nagas practiced [[Matriarchy]] and [[Polyandry]]. Nayara Menava Kuruba and Samantha are subgroups of [[Bunt (community)]] who migrated to Kerala after 800 AD from [[Tulunadu]]. These Tulu people (Nayara Menava Kuruba and Samantha) with roots from [[Ahichatra]]m in Uttarpradesh replaced the Tamil culture with a primitive Nepalese culture ( ([[Newar]] ) after the invasion of [[Malik Kafur]] in 1310 AD . This is the beginning of slavery of Nadar / [[Villavar]] people in their own former kingdom.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 20:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

==Malik Kafurs 1310 invasion brought Nairs from Tulunadu to Kerala==
[[Keralolpathi]] mentions a [[Rashtrakuta]] invasion under a Tulunadu prince who was the brother of Tulu king Kaviraja Singha invaded kerala during the rule of Krishna 111 with a 350000 (exaggerated) strong Nair army around 960 AD. This [[Rashtrakuta]] invader is called by Nagas as Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal (True Cheramans are Tamil [[Villavar]] rulers not related to the Tulu invader) who established the first Naga Kingdom in Northern Kerala at Ezhimala , the present day [[kannur]] . [[Kolathirii]]s were the descendents of this Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal. This Naga Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal converted to Islam and went to Mecca. The [[Tulunadu]]
Nagas who occupied kannur practised [[Matriarchy]] unlike Tamils of [[Chera dynasty]] . [[Kolathiri]]s (Chirackal Rajavamsham) were supported by the [[Araickal rajavamsham]] a Muslim dynasty who practised [[Matriarchy]].
The decline of Tamil power in Kerala coincided with the arrival of Naga [[Bunt (community)]] (Nayara Menava Kuruba and Samantha) who had close ties with Arab [[Mappilla]] and Chonaka (Turkish) Muslims of North Kerala. After the invasion of [[Malik Kafur]] in 1310 the NAGAS or Vadugas ([[Bunt (community)]] and [[Kuruba]] [[Naicker]] from Andhra joined the Turkish invades. [[Anjum
Hussain]] a [[Converted former Muslims]], a [[Kuruba]] [[Naicker]] founded the [[Vijayanagar Empire]] as Bukka Raya. Between 1300s to 1800 this Naga - Muslim alliance existed. The Nagas who had been serving the Dravidians as slaves were suddenly elevated to rulership. When [[Madurai Sultanate]] was founded around 1328 [[Samuthiri]] a Naga Samantha became the ruler of Calicut. Naga Kingdom of [[Kolathiri]] became the most powerful kingdom after 1310 because of their alliance with Muslims. Kolathiri send two prinesses called [[Attingal]] and Kunnumel Ranis to replace the Venads Tamil Ai dynasty. The [[Travancore Kingdom]] was ruled by the sons of Attingal ranis with Naga| Tulu roots. These Tulu rulers brought the [[Tulu Script]] from Karnataka which is used to write modern Malayalam. Tulu Nagas were primitive people who wore minimum dress . One Portuguese plate shows Cochin king and his Nayar soldiers wearing only loin cloth. (Chera Kings wear full Royal cloths). [[Marthanda Varma]] (1750) used to wear onlly a piece of cloth around his waist.
The Nagas and Aryans who spoke a Prakrit (Hindi) Sanskrit because of northern origins suppressed Tamil and most of Dravidian customs and religeon. Tulu Nagas of Kerala practiced [[Matriarchy]] like their Tulu cousins the [[Bunt (community)]]. Naga women practised [[Polyandry]] and family did not exist. [[Paternity]] could not be established and the children were raised by mothers. (Earlier Cheras were Patriarchal like other Tamils and had fixed families) Nagas ruled with the support of Arabs, Portuguese and British. This led to the increase in number of people with other religeons. The Naga rule was Barbaric as the did not have Family with a Husband and Wife but practised [[Polyandry]].
Nagas did not wear dress and forced Dravidians hitherto accustomed to wearing dress to go naked too.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 21:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

==Portuguese supported Nagas against Dravidians==

[[Portuguese]] soldiers who mixed with local Christians were called
[[Mulatto]] or Indian [[Mestizo]] made the sudden increase in the Christian population in Kerala. Kerala had only about ten thousand [[Nestorian]] christians who were less than 0.5% of then Keralas population on Vasco Da Gamas arrival in 1498. The [[Portuguese]] descendents who mixed the [[Nestorian]] [[Syrian Christian]]s in 1500s supported the Tulu Nagas of [[Kingdom of Cochin]] (The [[Mulatto]] Christians were antagonistic to Dravidians especially Tamils who once gave them refuge). At [[Angamaly]] the main Portuguese army was stationed while from [[Cochin]] | Mattancherry the Portuguese ruled. The Portuguese Christian army of [[Mulatto]]s were allies of Nagas and enjoyed a higher status.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 22:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

==European Colonialism deprived the Dravidians of their rights and country==

European colonialism reduced most indigeous Dravidian people to penury. Europeans suppored the Naga and Aryan claims to supremacy. Europeans promoted the Christians with foreign blood (European and Middle Eastern) as Brahmins ! . The British were instrumental in making the Northern language of Nairs written in [[Tulu script]] a form of [[Grantha script]] used only by Namboothiris and Tulu Brahmins till then.
The spice money made the Nagas rich. The Christian army of the Portuguese headed by Padaveetils supported the Nagas.

==British destroyed MalayalamTamil(Malayanma) while promoting Tulumalayalam==
Till the beginning of 19th century the language of Kerala used to be a form of Tamil called MalayalamTamil( Malayanma) Tamil itself. During Portuguese period the language of Kerala used to be [[Lingua Malabar Tamul]] was the language of Kerala. Till19th century the [[Malabar]] (Kerala) language was Tamil. MalayalamTamil or Malayanma was also a language derived from Tamil. For Nadars had numerous books written in Malayanma. The Tulumalayalam used by Namboohiris and Nairs was a minority language written with [[Tulu Script]]. The Syrian / Portuguese christians used [[Syriac]] [[Portuguese]] [[Latin]] and [[Tamil]]. British efforts to divide Kerala from rest of Dravidian south was systematic.
The Syrian/Portuguese Christians were encouraged by the British to learn the Tulumalayalam of Namboothiris and Nairs. In 1817 Kottayan seminary was establised by British. Herman Gundert in 1847 started a Malayalam (Tulumalayalam) newspaper and started Sanskritising Malayalam. By the mid 19th century the Dravìdian Malayalam Tamil had been completely replaced by the Tulumalayalam heavy with Sanskrit and Hindi words. This made all those books written in [[Tamil]] and Malayanma useless and all those who used them illiterate. The Syrian/Portuguese Christians became the guardians of the newly acquired language. British aim of isolating and controlling Kerala was successful. After 1860 Tulumalayalam written with [[Tulu Script]] a Naga-Aryan language became the sole language of Kerala. The [[Dravidian]] history (Kannagi Ilangovadikal Chera and [[Ay History]]) was not however taught.Keralas Dravidian children were forced to believe Namboothiri created legends such as [[Parashurama]] legend.
Most of Nadar books written in Palm leaf Manuscripts written in Tamil Malayanma rotted in this period.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 08:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

==British used Christianity as a weapon against Dravidians==
British converted the Dravidian tribes antagonistic to their rule to confuse and split them. East India Company had signed a pact with [[Dharmaraja]] of Travancore in 1895.
British were allies of Nagas and never helped Nadars in their struggle till 1859. The British effectively divided Nadars on Hindu and Christian lines. (King Serfoji of Thanjavur was converted to by Swartz and then the British usurped his throne). British never attempted to convert their Nair allies . Only after [[Sepoy Revolt]] when British faced severe opposition they made a legislation to make upper cloth legal. Though Nadars were educated in western style as early as 1809 they were never employed or given land by British.
Most of pure Dravidians had progress and freedom only after British left India at 1947.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 22:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

==The downfall of Tamil Villavar Pandyan Kingdoms==
After the invasion of [[Malik Kafur]] in1310 AD the original Tamil tribes were either exterminated or pushed southwards to find refuge at Western Ghats. [[Villavar]] [[Nadar]] concentrated around 100 km radius of [[Tenkasi]] the ancient Pandyan Royal House. [[Villavar]] founded the [[Chera Dynasty]]. Other Chera tribes such as Malayar/Malayaman who give the ancient name of Kerala the Malayanadu are mostly extinct though some survive as tribals at [[Thalassery]] area. Some [[Malayaman]] migrated to Thanjavur area. Similarly [[Pazhuvettaraiyar]] a supporting clan of Cheras are found in only Thanjavur area. Ayar Konar people who once ruled the [[Ay kingdom]] and [[Venad]] escaped through Chenkottah and found only at Thirunelveli now. While some [[Vellala]]s joined the [[Nair]]s but soon found only in border areas. Thus the Vaduga Tulu rulers the [[Nair]] / [[Bunt (community)]] displaced Tamils with the help of Turkish and [[Moplah]] help.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 06:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
==Nepalese Naga culture dominated Kerala between 1310 to 1947==
Nedumchadaya Pandyan consecrated Sri Padmanabha Swamy temple in 789 AD. (Venadinte Parinamam Sivasankaran Nair). [[Marthanda Varma]] at 1730 AD using stones brought from [[Gandaki]] river basin at Nepal(The homeland of Nagas). However Pandyan [[Villavar]] people were refused entry. The Naga migrants from [[Ahichatra]]m followed a
Napalese [[Newar]] like culture and customs in Kerala. [[Jainism]] and Hinduism of [[Villavar]] were replaced by Snake Temples of Nagas with live snakes. Nagas did not wear dress and forced Dravidians not to wear dress too. After the British arrival Nagas started wearing cloths still forced Dravidians to go naked. Foreign spice traders with roots from Persia and Arabia were called Mappilai during Tamil rule in Kerala(foreign sailors who married local women). Their women used to wear Kuppayam a loose jacket.
Dravidians never wore Kuppayam as it was a foreign costume. All Tamils including Nadars used Saree or Thavani to cover their breasts earlier. British in 1814 asked Nadar women to wear Kuppayam like foreign Christians.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 08:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

==Nair Exodus to Travancore in in 1789==

The Arab Navy of [[Moplah]] and Turkish (Chonaka Mappillai) army whice supported the Nair Samantha kingdoms made the Nagas invincible between 1314 to 1890. The Alirajas or Araikkal Rajavamsham of Kannur were the powerful Muslim kingdom which backed Nairs of [[Tulunadu]]. However [[Tipu Sultan]] who succeeded in a alliance with the Alirajas fixed the marriage of his son Abdhul Khali with the Araikkal Beevis Daughter.This ended the Malabar Muslim support to Nagas. When [[Tipu Sultan]] invaded Kerala in 1789 with a mere12000 army (4000 cavalry and 8000 foot soldiers) from Coimbatore the [[Nair]] armies of [[Kolathiri]] (20000 strong) and [[Samuthiri]] (50000 strong) ran away to [[Travancore]] without fighting. [[Samuthiri]] suicided while [[Kolathiri]] prince was killed by Tipu. The exodus of Nairs in 1789 made Nairs absolute majority at Travancore. These Nairs were behind the attacks on Nadars.

==Nagas were Sudras==
Nagas were the slaves of Aryan Nambuthiris who led them from [[Ahichatra]] in Uttarpradesh to South India. agas were ethnically different from Aryans and Dravidians. Nagas were slaves of Aryan Brhmins of [[Ahichatra]] Namboothiris and other [[Tulunadu]] Brahmins such as Shivalli Brahmins were invited by [[Kadamba]] king [[Mayuravarma]] at 345 AD from their home town [[Ahichatra]] in the Indo Nepalese border to [[Banavasi]] in Karnataka. These heritary Naga slaves may have Nepalese ancestory and may be related to [[Newar]]s of Nepal. These Naga slaves were called Bunta or Bunt meaning bonded for life as mentioned in the Graamapaddati the ancient records kept by Tulu Brahmins. The Naga slaves or [[Bunt]]s were not allowed to marry and have families and hence practised [[Matriarchy]].[[Paternity]] could not be establised as [[Polyandry]] was practised by Nagas. The [[Bunt (comnunity)]] of [[Tulunadu]] the parent community of [[Nair]]s of Kerala. Nayara Menava Kuruba Maralu and Samantha were subgroups of the [[Bunt (community)]] . The Tulu Brahmins (Shivalli Namboothiri Potti Embirandiri) called [[Bunt]]s [[Nair]]s as Sudras. The Naga Bunta were employed by various kingdoms of Karnataka as soldiers. The Tulu Pandyan Kingdom or the [[Alupas]] was ruled by Nadavas ( Nadalvar) equivalent to Nadars or Nadalvars of [[Pandyan Kingdom]] (Though Nadavas are a subcaste of Bunts now the Nadavas could originally have Dravidian Pandyan roots). The Bunts used to work as slave warriors for the [[Alupas]]. The Muslim invasion of [[Malik Kafur]] in 1310 changed the position of all Nagas ([[Bunt]] , [[Nair]] and [[Naicker]] ) of south india hitherto slaves were suddenly elevated to rulership after 1310s. All the Dravidian kingdoms of south India were destroyed and Nagas started ruling with Muslim help. Nambuthiris still refused to crown Naga rulers of Kerala as Kshatriya hence Naga rulers were called Samantha (Namesake Kshatriya ). However the North Indian [[Sudra]]s were fairer compared to [[Dravidian]]s gaining them European support.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 05:52, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

==The deceit of British and degradation of Nadars==
The Nadars and other indigenous Dravidians thought that British may help them free themselves from the Yoke of [[Nawab of the Carnatic]] and from the Vadugas (Naicker and Nair s of [[Bunt (community)]] who had occupied their ancestral land.Delegates of Nadars met British introducing themselves as Dravida Kshatria who once ruled ancient [[Tamilakam]] (Tamilnadu and Kerala) hence called Nadar or Nadalvar around 1800. Nadars told them about [[Pandya kingdom]] their ancestral Domain. British misrionaries such as Bishop Caldwell misinterpreted Dravida Kshatria. Caldwell called Nadars uncouth savages in his pamphlet Tinnevely Shanars. At 1847 Gnanamutthoo Nadar had to write in Madras Mail, an English daily to convince the British that Nadars were not Savages. Samuel Sargunar another Nadar Christian convert who had studied European Anthropology and Sociology vociferously challenged Caldwells comments on Chanars in the 1840s. The [[Malayali Nadar]]s had books written in a dialect which resembled ancient Tamil of Kerala called Malayanma (Malayalam Tamil). Thousands of books of [[Malayali Nadar]]s were written in Palm Leaf Manuscripts in Malayanma or Tamil or Manipravalam survive to this day. Nadars Kalarippayattu and Martial traditions were readily ignored by the British. British were quite convinced that all the Portuguese descendents from Goa to Kanyakumari were Brahmins and provided them with high posts in Kerala. [[Thachil Matthoo Tharakan]] a Syrian Christian was appointed as forest minister and first Christian minister of Travancore at 1795 by the British while many other Syrian Christians were appointed as judges. From 1795 British were the defacto rulers of Kerala. British residents ruled Kerala with the help of Tamil Brahmins who had joined the trade posts of [[East India Company]] as clerks. The Tamil Brahmins were Aryans belonging to Narmada river area and not ethnically related to Dravidians. The [[Narmada]] Brahmins dressed like other [[Saurashtra]] people (Saree and Dhoti tucked between legs] and promoted [[Sanskrit]]. Tamil Brahmins betrayed most Dravidian clans to British. The Tamil Brahmins convinced British that Nadars were not the Kshatriyas. (Dalavai Ramappaiyan a Narmada Tamil Brahmin actually led the invading Vijayanagar Naicker army in the 16th century). Thus European [[Colonialism]] deliberately promoted Non Dravidian Aryans and foreign blooded Christians. The Spice money and the protection of the Europeans kept alive an oppressive Naga regime for five Hundred years while reducing the Dravidian [[Villavar]] people to Slavery.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 15:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

==Nadar Books and American Neo Colonialism==

The Americans were suddenly got interested in the Nadar Community in the Post Independent era. The American authors such as Robert Hardgrave, Dennis Templeman or Eliza F Hunt are American University professors who had and had been part of American Government machinery. Dennis Templeman writes about Nadars like this 'A low Indian caste in terms Status influence and Wealth. This is a lie. This is a planned attack on ancient Nadar community who could have a total population of one crore and nearly 1 % of Indian population. American research is sham . Their ideas are mainly drawn from British records and Christian Clergy of Kerala. An absolute minority of Nadars are actually merchants. No such group such as Northern Nadars exist.
Christianity played very minimal role in the advancement of Nadar community.
Christian Nadars are actually poor and backward in many areas. Christianity has actually divided and weakened Nadars as British hoped. They are poorly represented in Parliament because of this division. Western and American help intervention has made the Portuguese - Syrian Christians, dominant in all Christian Educational institutions of India.
Nadars are pure Dravidians and have been in India and their [[Pandya Kingdom]] could
have founded civilization in India many thousand years ago. Nadars dont require [[Parangi]] American support either.
Americans have been writing that the Pandyan Nadar (Nadalvar) title is imagined. The British inactivity and complicity in the Upper Cloth Revolt is safely ignored by Americans.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 09:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

:Well, frankly, since there is a taboo against [[toplessness]] among American women, and toplessness (having no upper clothes) has a sexual connotation in America, the Americans might have been distracted by the subject matter... [[Special:Contributions/68.37.254.48|68.37.254.48]] ([[User talk:68.37.254.48|talk]]) 01:22, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

::Oh yeah, and there's another distraction: an American activist is named [[Ralph Nader]]. Famous activist, too. [[Special:Contributions/68.37.254.48|68.37.254.48]] ([[User talk:68.37.254.48|talk]]) 01:23, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

==Vandalism by Mr.Doku for comparing the Tamil Nadars with Kerala Nadars==
Go through all the links you have posted Mr. Doku. You make it sound like that the whole Nadar race had to follow this caste restriction. Post a proof which says that the Tamil Nadars had to face the same kind of caste restriction. I will post the appropriate proofs. Till then this article should never appended with the Nadar main article.[[User:Bake1987|Bake1987]] ([[User talk:Bake1987#top|talk]]) 14:34, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:The references used did not make any such distinction. If you read the article carefully, it also includes information regarding revolt in current day [[Tamil Nadu]] in places such as [[Kottar]]. Prove it wrong, I am willing to change. [[User:Docku|Docku:]][[User talk:Docku|“what up?”]] 14:39, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
A small part of Tamil-nadu doesnt mark the whole of Tamil-Nadu. Moreever Nagerkoil is a place very close to Kerala and the place is predominantly occupied by malayalees. I will post a proof as soon possible. Articles writen about a caste should be considered with very appropriate facts. There are many sorts of Nadars. And u r just talking about a very minute section of Nadars.[[User:Bake1987|Bake1987]] ([[User talk:Bake1987|talk]]) 14:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

::I am just talking about a very minute section of Nadars. So??? [[User:Docku|Docku:]][[User talk:Docku|“what up?”]] 15:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Please post a link which confirms that this caste restriction was also practiced in tamil nadu...[[User:Bake1987|Bake1987]] ([[User talk:Bake1987|talk]]) 15:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:::The article just deals with [[Travancore]] kingdom, which was almost the southern half of modern Kerala and southern region of present day Tamil Nadu. There was no Tamil Nadu or Kerala when the incident happened. [[User:Docku|Docku:]][[User talk:Docku|“what up?”]] 15:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
::Majority of people of Travancore except brahmins never wore upper clothes. do you have any reference that nadar/izhava woman were never allowed to wear upper cloths? i think all references talks about channar woman. isnt?
11:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

::Pls read the article again. The article says that nadar, ezhava and nair women were not wearing upper clothes.. And, the references in the article calls them nadars not channars whatever that is. See [http://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC&pg=PA159&dq=nadar+upper+cloth&lr= here]. [[User:Docku|Docku:]] [[User talk:Docku|What up?]] 19:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

==Nadar were Slaves in both Tamilnadu and Kerala==
The Tamil kingdoms came to an end in 1310 after the invasion of [[Malik Kafur]] in both Tamilnadu and Kerala. The Muslim dominance came to get excercised through [[Madurai Sultanate]] [[Nawab of the Carnatic]] and the [[Moplah]] . The Nagas Vadugas occupied both TN ([[Naicker]] and Kerala by [[Nair]]. The [[Kalabhra]]s the traditional antagonists of Pandyas joined the invading Nagas. The [[Villavar]] Nadar people were forced to take refuge in jungles of southern western ghats. The Nadar degradation might have come between 15 th to 18 th centuries. Some Jain temples survived upto 16th century.The temple of [[Kannagi]] the traditional Jain goddess of [[Villavar]] people became a Hindu temple after Naga takeover. In the 19th century Nadars were not allowed to enter any temples in TN or Kerala including the Thiruchendur temple built by Parakrama Pandyan and Padmanaba Swami temple consecrated by Nedumchadaya Pandyan, their ancestors. The [[Villavar]] people had to abandon the ancient [[Kannagi]] temple built by the Chera_ [[Villavar]] ruler Neduncheralathan when they fled to south. The Vallikada Panicker was an aristocrat, a Nadar ancestor who lived in the 16th century Cochin. Valiathampi Kunjuthampi Kadaippadal written at mid 18th century says that several families of Nadakkamar and Panikkanmar(Kerala Nadar title) served [[Marthanda Varma]] and his rivals Pappu and Raman Thampi as mercendries and defenders. In the same period At 1725 Branthan Chanan and the army of Nadars saved [[Marthanda Varma]] from his enemies. It is believed [[Marthanda Varma]] was behind the ostracism of Nadars.
But in the early 19th century their position was very low in [[Travancore]].
#Chanar were not allowed inside Hindu temples
#Chanar not allowed to wear Gold in public
#Chanar could not own more than 10 acres of land
#Chanar could not build two storey building
#Chanar women could not wear Upper Cloth

In Tamil Nadu
#Chanar were restricted to extreme south at Thirunelveli/Tuticorin area.
#Chanars were not allowed inside Temples
#Chanar were forced to live in dryland
#Chanar could not serve in army

In 1801 some Chanar delegates met the British Collector of Thirunelveli and declared themselves to be the Vanquished Kshatrias from Pandyan era and requested that they may be reinstated.
The Collector asked the Nadars to bring a single gold coin minted by Nadars Pandian ancestors. The gold coin brought by the Nadars turned out to be an Italian Drachm, prompting the Collector to close the case.

[[User:Southindia|Southindia]] ([[User talk:Southindia|talk]]) 17:40, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

==So?==
So just make sure that this happened to the Nadars of kerala. Kerala Nadars and Tamil Nadars are not one these days!! So u have to mention it specifically!!! This link here clearly will tel u that this happened in a place where nairs were predominant. S there were no kerala o tamil nadu in those days. But this incident happened in a place which was predominantly occupied by malayalees. Malayalees and Tamils were 2 different races right frm the beginning..[[User:Bake1987|Bake1987]] ([[User talk:Bake1987|talk]]) 15:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[http://www.kuttyjapan.com/nadar/nadar-what-they-do.asp]

:Your knowledge of race in India is remarkable. Using a pro-Nadar caste website to make a pro-Nadar point is outstanding. [[User:Docku|Docku:]][[User talk:Docku|“what up?”]] 16:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not tryin to making things look according to the Nadar point of view. I am jus trying to say that this happened to the Nadars who were in a malayalee dominated region and specifically conveying this didnt happen to all the Nadars. I am not tryin to prove u are wrong o something. No offence.[[User:Bake1987|Bake1987]] ([[User talk:Bake1987|talk]]) 07:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

There is always a book which reveals the negative side of a caste. The fact is we don't like docku and we will never allow an article written by him to remain in wiki. He is an anti-nadar,period. After all this, he is still trying to disturb this article. This upper cloth controversy is actually a conflict between a tamil caste and other malayalee castes. It is not even a caste prob. The Nairs were predominant in these areas and ofcourse they did'nt like a tamil caste disobeying their rules. So it was actually tamil vs malayalam. Not a caste conflict. Adding this article to the main Nadar article is baseless. There are many caste conflicts that has happened between the nadars and other castes. We cant include them all. Also docku addresses the nadars as though they were untouchables. If we were such a low caste we wouldnt have excelled so much in business. Noone would trade from a untouchable. Obviously docku ia taking all this very personal. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.164.92.83|122.164.92.83]] ([[User talk:122.164.92.83|talk]]) 14:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 

:What about these articles, [[H. Vasanthakumar]], [[S. P. Adithanar]] and [[Ayya Nadar]] articles. I wrote them too. Do you want them deleted as well? --[[User:Docku|Docku:]] [[User talk:Docku|What's up?]] 14:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

::By the way, if you guys do think that this article is nonsense, propose for it to be deleted. You can try [[WP:SPEEDY|speedy deletion]] or [[WP:AFD|Nominate for deletion]] debate. --[[User:Docku|Docku:]] [[User talk:Docku|What's up?]] 14:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Ya right. As if we don't know what you r up to, oFcourse we ll have this deleted. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.174.3.171|122.174.3.171]] ([[User talk:122.174.3.171|talk]]) 13:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC) 
Which part of tamil-nadu? Tirunelveli or Madurai? The Nadars of Nagerkoil are widely recognised as
Kerala nadars because of their appearance and culture. Asserting that these acts were practiced in Tamilnadu sounds like a fairy tale. I can't believe that wiki is actually supporting the claims of the docku and completing ignoring our claims. Someone neutral made it clear that this page should be locked till 14th. But it seems someone who supports docku has allegedly removed that tag for docku's sake. Referring two books to write history of the nadars? Wiki's concern over neutrality is under a big question mark. The line which says that the nairs stripped the clothes of nadars is sheer racism. Even if it is true, this line can be avoided for the sake of the nadars and for neutrality's sake!! —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/121.246.105.155|121.246.105.155]] ([[User talk:121.246.105.155|talk]]) 06:09, 10 April 2009 (UTC) 

:"Wiki" supports reliable sources, not your claims or Docku's claims. Read [[WP:RS|Reliable Sources]], and the sources that support the article and you'll see how "Wiki" works. [[User:Priyanath|Priyanath]] [[User talk:Priyanath|talk]] 16:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I see. So wiki allows kids like you to do the writing part. So does that mean anyone can write anything about anyone without the permission of that specific person. We never asked wiki to write an article about us. If this article doesnt care a damn about the views of the nadars, I can only say that wiki is run by kids. Who the hell is wiki to write about us and to even make things wiki has prevented common users like from editing this crap page. The contents in this article are not accurate either. For eg, this happened to the nadars who lived in kereala. Google books is not the greatest library on earth. Wiki sucks bigtime. We don't care about the rules of wiki. This is a public place and writing crap about a clan without their permission is something intolerable. [[Special:Contributions/122.164.13.231|122.164.13.231]] ([[User talk:122.164.13.231|talk]]) 11:35, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Its useless to continue this discussion. People here speak of rules. They are not serious. The article is not even correct. The nadars and shanars are today one caste but were seperate castes at a time. People should chose their words carefully when writing about a caste. This incident happened in a Malayalee dominated region. Also only the shanars(toddy tapping nadars) were its victims. How baseless and insane can this get?? If things arent favorable to our people,then these so called rules should be broken to compensate our view and belief. I dont suppose wiki is as rigid as the caste system
Refer this book. Converting Women By Eliza F. Kent(Page 62).

Replacing the term nadar with shanar is not a great improvement. Someone should delete this article or consider removing it from the main article Nadar.[[Special:Contributions/122.174.6.228|122.174.6.228]] ([[User talk:122.174.6.228|talk]]) 11:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

My question remains unanswered. This shows how much importance is given to this article. Nothing but a scribble this article. So is someone here gonna remove this insignificant article frm the main nadar article o what??[[Special:Contributions/122.174.6.228|122.174.6.228]] ([[User talk:122.174.6.228|talk]]) 09:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

==Statement corrections==
* " ''no female was allowed to cover their upper part of the body in front of [[Nambudiri|Brahmins]] of Kerala'' " -> This is changed to : " ''no female was allowed to cover their upper part of the body in front of [[Caste System in India|Upper castes]] until the 19th century.'' "
Reason: This rule was not only for the Nambudiris, but to all upper castes.
* " ''Violence against Nadar climber women who revolted against this continued and reached its peak in 1858 across the kingdom, notably in southern taluks of [[Neyyattinkara]] and Neyyur.'' " -> This is changed to : " ''Violence against Nadar women and other lower caste women who revolted against this continued and reached its peak in 1858 across the kingdom, notably in southern taluks of [[Neyyattinkara]], [[Nagarcoil]], and [[Agastheeswaram]]. '' "
Reason: The discrimination was not only against Nadar women, but also against all lower castes. Also, Neyyur was not a taluk. So, including the taluk names.
Cheers, [[User:Aarem | Aarem]] [[User_talk:Aarem|(Talk)]] 10:46, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
:Do you have refs to support all your above claims? The upper caste sentence part is same as the sentence which was on the article before. If you can provide any ref to support your claim that other castes were also involved in the struggle, please do. You can't add a line which was never in the ref. Hope you can understand.[[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 03:23, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Verrry interesting to us Westerners... so lower caste women ''had'' to be [[topless]] in certain parts of India until the 1850s? [[Special:Contributions/68.37.254.48|68.37.254.48]] ([[User talk:68.37.254.48|talk]]) 01:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

==Nadars’ former status==
Obviously Sylvester's book is not a thorough anthopological work. According to leading Nadar anthropologists, Robert.L.Hardgrave and Dennis Templeman, the nadar were not untouchables. Hardgrave and Bishop Caldwell(the person who was actually with the Nadars of 19thcentury) state that the Nadars occupied a position above the vannans and ambattans(barbers and washer men) and below other middle castes in the caste hierarchy(ref:Hardgrave pg 21-23). In other words, they occupied a middle position like the Vishwakarmas(assaris). Hardgrave also states that there were many Nadar subcastes in southern Tirunelveli, during the 19th century. The status of each subcaste was different from the other and this is even a confusing topic for Hardgrave. Some aristocratic Nadars were tradionally wealthy landlords and some of these land owning Nadars also resided in Southern Travancore(refer:Hargrave pg-29&56). Templeman states that most of the Nadars of the 19th century were not a part of the mainstream Hindu caste society and that their vague position in the hierarchy actually enabled them to challenge the traditional caste society. This makes more sense. The Nadars were able to become a successful business community due to this fact (Templeman:21-23). So the Nadars' former status is confusing and varied from region to region. The term Nadar is a modern title used to refer all these different groups of Nadars and equating all these groups to the term 'Untouchable' is inappropriate. Toddy tapping is just one of the occupations of the community. The community was primarily engaged in the manufacture of jaggery(Hardgrave:pg:137). The article states that the Nair community people covered their upper body. According to the Nair wiki article, nair men and women didn’t cover their upper body. This line also needs clarification. And the last section (Aftermath) has little to do with the upper cloth controversy or Nairs and it is more relevant to the Northern Nadars(a group of Nadars who migrated to Northern Tirunelveli) . The commissioner was no expert at this topic. Moreover this happened about 200 years ago and the current status of the Nadars is very different today. This is a complex topic and I advise the admins to consider these facts carefully. I am quite busy with my personal life now. I may not be able to participate in this discussion actively. But if you need any help please send me a message. I have the ebooks of Hardgrave and Templeman with me. If you need it, please let me know. Thank you.
 
Reference:
 
1)The Nadars of TamilNad by Robert.L.Hardgrave (University of California/ Year of publication:1969) 

2)The Northern Nadars of TamilNad By Dennis Templeman(Oxford University Press/ Year of publication:1996) [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 05:52, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

== Recent edits ==

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Channar_revolt&type=revision&diff=703676066&oldid=703203717 00:16, 7 February 2016]:
:* ''"The Nadars were historically regarded as untouchable toddy tappers, and the bodies and attire of their women were coded to distinguish themselves from upper-caste women."'' - copyvio of Channa 2013 p.188.
:* ''"Subhadra Channa has described the possible motive of the Channar revolt as for the desire of the Nadars to look like Nayar women. This is reflected"'' - the page does not mention the Channa revolt. It mentions "the Nadar woman and their protest in the Tranavncore state in the 19th century," and it mentions the permittance in '''1913''' by John Munro, the British resident at the Tranvancore court, in for the Nadar women "to cover their breasts with the breast cloth typical of the Nayar women." - is this a deliberate attempt to falsify info, or does the editor just not understand what's being written here?
:* ''"Historically in Kerala, namely Travancore, the wearing of an upper cloth was allowed only to the Brahmin and Nair castes."'' - this is not what the source says. It says: "By tradition in Travancore, the breast was bared as a symbol of respect to those of higher status."
:* ''"Many foreign groups such as the Syrian Christians and Muslims were allowed to also wear an upper cloth, but one which was different compared to that of the upper-caste hindus known as 'Kupayam'."'' - source does not say "many." It says that in 1813 the Nadars were allowed to wear jackets like the women of Christians, Shonagas, and Maplas.
To be continued. Best regards, [[User:Joshua Jonathan|Joshua Jonathan]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|Let's talk!]] 15:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
: After having read the passage from Cohn, I don't see any major problems with the earlier version, other than the bit about untouchability. The main point seems to be that the Nadar women were permitted to wear the ''kuppayam'' jacket, but they weren't satisfied. They wanted to wear the same kind of breast cloth that the Nair women did. Ergo, they were fighting for ''equality''. We shouldn't lose this important bit. Also, the John Munro order was in '''1813'''! But note that it was rescinded. - [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 22:12, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
::: Read through all of the source given. I did not attempt to falsify info, look at the refs for heaven's sake. [[User:Rabt man|Rabt man]] ([[User talk:Rabt man|talk]]) 00:48, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
::::I ''did'' read the references & sources you gave. {{yo|Kautilya3}} which part of which earloer version are you referring to? [[User:Joshua Jonathan|Joshua Jonathan]] -[[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|Let's talk!]] 07:41, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
::::: I was referring to the version you started editing. It appears that being bare-chested was the natural way of being for the Keralites, which is fully understandable in the hot and humid climate of Kerala. Problems started appearing only when the "foreign religions," including Hinduism, but now Christianity, came in and introduced their prudish mores. The Brahmin women covered their chests, probably wearing blouses. Thus chest-covering became a symbol of caste rank. The middle ranks covered their chests lightly, using a "breast-cloth," but didn't wear blouses. The lower castes didn't cover their chests at all. Christian missionaries came and taught the lower-caste women that they had to cover their breasts. (You can actually hear them thinking how barbaric it is not to cover chests!) Then the women decided they wanted to do it the Keralite way, not the Christian way. So there are many many undercurrents and subtexts in this saga. - [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 09:41, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

== Partisan sources ==

{{u|Azuredivay}}, please explain the "partisan sources" tag; as far as I can see, the substance of the article is based on scholarly sources. [[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]]) 14:54, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
:The earlier version (when it was tagged with "partisan sources" tag) clearly had news sources that don't belong here per [[WP:HISTRS]]. Why you are restoring them? [[User:Wareon|Wareon]] ([[User talk:Wareon|talk]]) 17:10, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
::HISTRS is an essay. When scholarly sources are available, they are preferable, but high-quality news sources can certainly be used to supplement them when they provide useful detail. ''You'' removed both a scholarly source and all links to [[Breast tax]]; why did you do that? [[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]]) 17:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
:::It is not just an essay but a standard. I was restoring exactly [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Channar_revolt&oldid=913466099 this version] by Mayan302. How come news sources know things that scholarly sources don't know about a 150 years old subject? It sounds fishy. See [[WP:REDFLAG]]. [[User:Wareon|Wareon]] ([[User talk:Wareon|talk]]) 17:29, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Sitush}} Thank you for doing the cleanup and recognizing the need of scholarly sources.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Channar_revolt&diff=959224538&oldid=959223217] The article states "Lower-caste women who wore clothes that covered their breasts had to pay a punitive breast tax to the state", cited to a [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36891356 BBC source] which is still not a scholarly source and it is mainly interpreting what it has learned from "''a village tale''". Is that reliable? [https://books.google.com/books?id=HzlkWtM9IJYC OUP] has been used for the next sentence which makes no mention of such a "tax". It does not even mention [https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&id=HzlkWtM9IJYC&q=nangeli#v=onepage&q=nangeli&f=false Nangeli] "village tale". I am confident that if this claim had any strong validity then it won't be missed by a source like OUP given the OUP book has significantly covered the subject. I assume that these news sources have started to find historicity in the claims of village tales in protest to NCERT decision to remove the mention of Channar revolt from school curriculum.[https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/renaissance-council-slams-ncert-decision/article26584105.ece] [[User:Wareon|Wareon]] ([[User talk:Wareon|talk]]) 04:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
::::Rome was not built in a day. I have to read, sleep, eat, live a little. There is [[WP:DEADLINE|no deadline]]. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 05:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

== Scholarly sources for tax? ==

I realise that the breast tax issue has kicked off a storm here and elsewhere. I can see recent news sources that refer to such a tax but Indian news sources, in particular, really do tend to feed off each other and are not particularly reliable.

I have been trawling for scholarly sources that mention such a tax. I am not new to this subject but (a) cannot recall seeing it mentioned until recently and (b) as yet haven't found an academic who had mentioned it. Also, it does not seem to appear in contemporary British works such as Logan's ''Travancore State Manual'' (we wouldn't consider that to be reliable but he was fond of minutiae & this practice would have appealed to his sense of the "heathen").

So, has anyone actually got a decent academic source that refers to it or are we in danger of repeating populist stuff that may well be an extreme example of "fake news"? - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 18:23, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

BTW, I did notice that [[S. N. Sadasivan]] referred to it about 20 years ago but he is hopelessly unreliable as a historian and we routinely excise any citations of him. So far, that is all I have found before news stories in the 2010s. Even Hardgrave, who wrote a pretty definitive study of the Nadars in 1969, doesn't seem to mention it. I really suspect this has come out of Sadasivan's stupidity & some feminist/lower-caste activist nexus in more recent times. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 18:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
:{{re|Sitush}} The ones brought to my attention were [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17449855.2019.1570966] and [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03068374.2018.1487685], which look okay. There's [https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_the_London_Missionary_Soc/0oscAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22breast+tax%22+travancore&dq=%22breast+tax%22+travancore&printsec=frontcover this], which is perhaps a dodgy publisher, whom I'd have to investigate more. There's also a book from "Mittal publications", and another Charles Allen references (a book). It's a little too much to write off entirely, for me; the media source is the BBC, too, not just the dodgy Indian papers. [[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]]) 19:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

::[[Charles Allen (writer)]] is a popular historian whom I know has close-paraphrased stuff without attribution, so he may not be the best thing to go for. Or is this a different Charles Allen? The 2019 feminist paper is obviously peer-reviewed but also obviously driven by the agenda I mentioned - do the writers give a source for whatever they claim? I haven't spotted a BBC item that actually says there was a tax in the BBC's voice.
::We can't write it off, and I wasn't intending to do that. I just think it may need contextualising because this has come almost literally out of nowhere despite both the region & its major castes(Nair, Ezhava, Nadar etc) being among the most intensely studied in all of India. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 20:01, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
*I rewrote the Nangeli article, months back and it was pretty stable - why are we discussing this? [[Manu S. Pillai]], a quite reputed historian had covered this issue [https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-woman-who-cut-off-her-breasts/article17324549.ece comprehensively] and I have nothing more to add. The tax certainly existed as a generic tax imposed on LC women (which was part of an broader oppressive tax-regime and not limited to women) ''but'' it had nothing to do with breast size (as extrapolated from etymological connections and perpetuated in regional folkore, before gaining some legitimization by DBA activists). [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|∯WBG]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|converse]] 20:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

:*But this is also a yet another recent news source failing [[WP:HSC]] which mostly appears to be discussing the recent propagation of the "tax" by depending on a village legend. Whether a generic tax was imposed or not, the bigger issue is if it was as relevant as much as it has been interpreted to be significantly relevant by the recent media sources who are lously engaging in revisionism. As mentioned above, if the "tax" is actually a relevant part to the subject, then why this article alone lacked any mention before last year or the above Oxford University source which has discussed the subject in great lengths but mentions nothing about the tax? If we could discover multiple reliable scholarly publications coming before 2015, not prone to taking inspiration from local village legends and indeed cite some source/evidence for their claim then we can assess the credibility of the subject. Subject has been widely covered for 200 years, it must be easy to find such sources. Currently it all looks like revisionism, since the "tax" part appears to be having a lack of relevance in Channar revolt once we ignore the recent news sources. [[User:Azuredivay|Azuredivay]] ([[User talk:Azuredivay|talk]]) 00:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:*I would like to see an academic source that is referencing contemporary or near-contemporary primary sources, not rehashing a folk tale. Folklore has its place, sure, and there is no doubt that historians frequently find new sources that cause revisions of history, but modern standards of presenting history pretty much demand that sources are at least near-contemporaneous, even if oral history. I don't trust a folk tale narrative to have remained static in the face of the present-day social activists and I am astonished if reputable historians are putting their status on the line ''in academically rigorous publications'' based purely on the moving target that is a 200 year old tale largely passed down by word of mouth. Absent this, any mention probably needs a significant caveat. FWIW, I have literally been in the room when a renowned historian realised his much-publicised thoughts would not stand up to academic scrutiny - [[Hugh Trevor-Roper]] was both a teacher and a friend to me. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 03:51, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
::*I strongly disagree that Pillai fails HISTRS — the linked piece is an excerpt from [S. Pillai, Manu. (2019). "The woman with no breasts" The Courtesan, the Mahatma and the Italian Brahmin: Tales from Indian History. Chennai: [https://scroll.in/article/864852/what-will-westlands-new-politically-engaged-literary-imprint-bring-ask-publisher-karthika-vk Comtext Imprint, Westland Publications]] which had extensive bibliographies, if I recall correctly.
::*I don't deem the tax to be a major causative agent behind the rebellion and (as noted before) agree that much of this has to do with agenda-driven revisionism.
::*Bernard S. Cohn, a historian-par-excellence do mention (and derive from) Yesudas' works in context of the broader locus. [Yesudas had name-dropped the tax as a generic charge on LC women.]
::*An Indian History Congress presentation (2004) [https://www.jstor.org/stable/44144852 notes of the tax] wrt the revolt ''but'' I don't deem their conference-presentations to be of high scholarly merit and/or rigor.
::*To summarise, I don't believe the tax to belong here, at all, given that no scholarly text on the subject links the revolt with the tax. The discussion about the tax only belonged at Nangeli (wherein the details of her myth has been discussed) but sadly, a DRV has hold that there will be a seperate article on breast tax and I have no idea what it will contain. [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|∯WBG]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|converse]] 05:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
:::*Just on the point of the conference paper, I think you may be right to have concerns. See my recent comment [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/959185486 here]. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 06:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
::::*Same reason. I have seen pretty many inaccuracies in a variety of presentations at the History Congress, over the years. They claim to do peer-review but it's practically non-existent. [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|∯WBG]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|converse]] 07:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

== Unreliable sources and twisted information ==

The article is twisting the topic and is completely misleading .Also most of the references used here are mainly from the books related to religious conversions . the topic need to be edited as soon as possible and reliable and unbaised sources need to be added . Also unecesarily specifying other community names also need to avoided especially in sensitive topics. I hope admin will notice this . [[User:Theobserver8991|Theobserver8991]] ([[User talk:Theobserver8991|talk]]) 08:48, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
::Some references (like Ponnumuthan) are indeed bad. However, you removed a valid ref from Eliza Kent's book (a book published by Oxford University Press!). This article is mostly according to the refs from Hardgrave's and Kent's book. The BBC ref clearly states that the Ezhavas had to face this problem as well. So unless you provide another valid ref to prove your point we cant remove the term Ezhava from the article. Please don't remove valid refs. [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 18:19, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

== Please check the validity of the sources . ==

Unreliable sources. [[User:Theobserver8991|Theobserver8991]] ([[User talk:Theobserver8991|talk]]) 09:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Channar revolt

2021-07-11T18:08:11Z

Mayan302: removal of content with reference. reverting

{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes to cover their breasts.

==Background==
In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s and [[Ezhava]]s, had to bare their chest in the presence of members of the higher-ranked [[Nair]] caste, who in turn had to do so in the presence of the still higher ranked [[Nambudiri Brahmin]]s. The Brahmins, being at the pinnacle of the Hindu ritual ranking system known as [[varna (Hinduism)|varna]], bared their chest only in the presence of a deity<ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} Lower-caste women who wore clothes that covered their breasts had to pay a punitive [[Breast Tax|breast tax]] to the state.<ref name=":0">{{Cite news|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36891356|title=The woman who cut off her breasts to protest a tax|date=2016-07-28|access-date=2019-11-15|language=en-GB}}</ref>

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of a still higher-ranked community,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the non-Brahmin women{{Citation needed|date=May 2020|reason=Exact page needed}}
, to punctuate their low status. Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the Nair breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel John Munro, British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread pollution in the state. Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]], Shonagas, and [[Mappilas]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Channar revolt

2021-07-10T16:10:58Z

Mayan302: removal of content with reference. reverting

{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in the present day [[Kanyakumari district]] of the [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes to cover their breasts.

==Background==
In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s and [[Ezhava]]s, had to bare their chest in the presence of members of the higher-ranked [[Nair]] caste, who in turn had to do so in the presence of the still higher ranked [[Nambudiri Brahmin]]s. The Brahmins, being at the pinnacle of the Hindu ritual ranking system known as [[varna (Hinduism)|varna]], bared their chest only in the presence of a deity<ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} Lower-caste women who wore clothes that covered their breasts had to pay a punitive [[Breast Tax|breast tax]] to the state.<ref name=":0">{{Cite news|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36891356|title=The woman who cut off her breasts to protest a tax|date=2016-07-28|access-date=2019-11-15|language=en-GB}}</ref>

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of a still higher-ranked community,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the non-Brahmin women{{Citation needed|date=May 2020|reason=Exact page needed}}, to punctuate their low status. Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the Nair breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel John Munro, British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread pollution in the state. Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by Shonagas and [[Mappilas]] which was similar to the [[Chattayum Mundum]] worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

Channar revolt

2021-07-09T16:06:07Z

Mayan302: removal of content with reference. reverting

{{Use dmy dates|date=June 2017}}
{{Use Indian English|date=June 2017}}
{{Reformation in Kerala}}
The '''Channar Lahala''' or '''Channar revolt''', also called '''Maru Marakkal Samaram''',{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} refers to the fight from 1813 to 1859 of [[Nadar climber]] women in the present day [[Kanyakumari district]] of the [[Travancore]] kingdom of India for the right to wear upper-body clothes to cover their breasts.

==Background==
In 19th century Travancore, baring of one's chest to higher status people was considered a sign of respect by both males and females.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Billington Harper|2000|p=13}} Thus, those of the lower status [[caste system in India|castes]], such as the [[Nadar climber]]s and [[Ezhava]]s, had to bare their chest in the presence of members of the higher-ranked [[Nair]] caste, who in turn had to do so in the presence of the still higher ranked [[Nambudiri Brahmin]]s. The Brahmins, being at the pinnacle of the Hindu ritual ranking system known as [[varna (Hinduism)|varna]], bared their chest only in the presence of a deity<ref>{{cite book|title=Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India|last1=Kent|first1=Eliza|publisher=Oxford university|pages=216}}</ref>{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} Lower-caste women who wore clothes that covered their breasts had to pay a punitive [[Breast Tax|breast tax]] to the state.<ref name=":0">{{Cite news|url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36891356|title=The woman who cut off her breasts to protest a tax|date=2016-07-28|access-date=2019-11-15|language=en-GB}}</ref>

Higher-class women covered both breasts and shoulders with a piece of material known as the upper-cloth unless in the presence of people of a still higher-ranked community,{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} whereas Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the non-Brahmin women{{Citation needed|date=May 2020|reason=Exact page needed}}, to punctuate their low status. Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity,{{sfn|Hardgrave|1969|p=55–70}} and started to wear "long cloths," strengthened by their new belief system, which offered equal rights to all men (and women). When many more Nadars turned to Christianity, many Nadar women started to wear the Nair breast cloth.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}

==1813–1829 grants and withdrawals==
The Nadar women successfully campaigned to be allowed to cover their breasts. In 1813, Colonel John Munro, British ''dewan'' in the Travancore court, issued an order granting permission to women converted to Christianity to wear upper cloth. The order was withdrawn when ''pindakars'', members of the Raja's council, complained about this, arguing that this right would obliterate caste-differences, and lead to widespread pollution in the state. Nadar women were forbidden to wear the Nair sharf, and instead were allowed to wear the ''kuppayam'', a type of jacket worn by Shonagas and [[Mappilas]] which was similar to the [[Chattayum Mundum]] worn by [[Saint Thomas Christians|Syrian Christians]].{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=140}}{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} The women were not satisfied, continuing to fight for the right to wear upper cloth "like any other woman in the higher castes,"{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}} and preferring breast-clothing in the Nair-style. This led to increasing violence in the 1820s against Nadar women, and also the burning of schools and churches. In 1828 the Travancore government again forbade Nadar-women the Nair-style breast-clothes, but permitted the wearing of the jacket.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}} In 1829, the Travancore queen issued yet another proclamation, which denied the right of Nadar women to wear upper cloths.{{sfn|Ponnumuthan|1996|p=109}}

==1859 proclamation==
In 1858, new violence broke out in several places in Travancore. On 26 July 1859, under pressure from [[Sir Charles Trevelyan, 1st Baronet|Charles Trevelyan]], the [[Madras Presidency|Madras]] Governor, the king of Travancore issued a proclamation proclaiming the right for all Nadar women to cover their breasts, either by wearing jackets, like the Christian Nadars, or tie coarse-cloth around their upper-body, like the ''Mukkavattigal'' (fisher-women).{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141}}{{sfn|Ross|2008|p=78}}{{sfn|Jones|1989|p=159}} Yet they were still not allowed to cover their breasts in the style of the higher-class Nair women.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=141-142}} This solution was not satisfactory to the missionaries, who regarded all men and women to be equal. Nadar women continued to ignore the restrictions, developing an upper-wear style that resembled the style of the higher class Hindu women, but offended some Hindus as a provocation by the missionaries.{{sfn|Cohn|1996|p=142}} The code was still discriminatory until 1915–1916, and the challenge was supported by [[Ayyankali]].{{cn|date=May 2020}}

==Further emancipation==
After the revolt, pamphlets appeared putting forth the claims of [[Kshatriya]] status of the Nadars. Members of the caste claimed the right to wear the sacred thread and to ride palanquins to wedding ceremonies. By 1891 at least 24,000 Nadars had given their caste to the census enumerator as being ''kshatriya''.{{sfn|Bendix|Brand|1973|p=534}}

== Controversy ==
The [[Central Board of Secondary Education|CBSE]] in December 2016 issued a circular to all 19,000 affiliated schools under it asking that a section 'Caste Conflict and Dress Change' – a chapter that included the Channar revolt – be omitted from the curriculum with effect from 2017.<ref>{{Cite news|url=http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/cbse-says-nadar-women-s-historic-struggle-cover-their-breasts-objectionable-54555|title=CBSE says Nadar women's historic struggle to cover their breasts 'objectionable'|date=2016-12-20|newspaper=The News Minute|access-date=2016-12-21}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]
* [[Nangeli]]

== References ==
{{reflist|30em}}

==Sources==
{{refbegin}}
* {{Citation | last =Kent | first =Eliza.F. | year =2004 | title =Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India | publisher =Oxford University Press | doi =10.1093/0195165071.001.0001 | isbn= 9780195165074 | url =https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195165071.001.0001/acprof-9780195165074}}
* {{Citation | last1 =Bendix | last2 =Brand | first1=Reinhard | first2 =Coenraad | year =1973 | title=State and Society: A Reader in Comparative Political Sociology | publisher =University of California Press | isbn =9780520024908 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=P5gzTp13AXQC}}
* {{Citation | last =Billington Harper | first =Susan | year =2000 | title =In the Shadow of the Mahatma | publisher =Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing | isbn =0-8028-3874-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=gvUqv6-pH4UC}}
* {{Citation | last =Cohn | first =Bernard S. | year =1996 | title =Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge | publisher =Princeton University Press | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q-nDwAAQBAJ|isbn= 9780691000435}}
* {{Citation | last =Hardgrave | first =Robert | year =1969 | title =The Nadars of Tamilnad: The Political Culture of a Community in Change | publisher =University of California Press |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC}}
* {{Citation | last =Jones | first =Kenneth W. | year =1989 | title =Socio-Religious Reform Movements in British India | publisher =Cambridge University Press | isbn =0-521-24986-4 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=8HV4nHv8urgC}}
* {{Citation | last =Kertzer | first =David I. | year =1988 | title =Ritual, Politics, and Power | publisher =Yale University Press | isbn =0300043627 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=osntCYbeXRYC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ponnumuthan | first =Selvister | year =1996 | title =The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India | publisher =Universita Gregoriana | isbn =9788876527210 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zcedqS4jOusC}}
* {{Citation | last =Ross | first =Robert | year =2008 | title =Clothing: A Global History | publisher =Polity}}
{{refend}}

[[Category:Kingdom of Travancore]]
[[Category:Rebellions in Asia]]
[[Category:19th century in India]]
[[Category:19th-century rebellions]]
[[Category:Social history of Kerala]]
[[Category:Women's rights in Asia]]
[[Category:Clothing controversies]]

User talk:Bishonen

2021-05-31T16:06:22Z

Mayan302: /* Sivakasi Riots article bothered by a sock? */

{{bots|deny=all}}
<div style="width:67px;height:200px;position:fixed;top:calc(100% - 216px);left:16px;z-index:9999;">[[File:Platinum goddess.png|67px|Platinum Goddess of Wikipedia. Cold and hard, but also beautiful and priceless. |link=https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bishonen&diff=846169745&oldid=846091174&diffmode=source]]</div>

<div style="width:400px; margin:0 auto; text-align:center; font-size:110%; font-family:Georgia, Times, 'Times New Roman', serif;">
[[File:WMCON18 by Rehman - Sunday - Tour (9).jpg|thumb|300px|centre]]
This user misses Doug Taylor.</div>

== Enabling bullying ==

By unblocking User:EEng you are effectively saying that certain people can do whatever they want on wikipedia, harrass and bully anyone they want as long as they are popular enough and "it's only a joke". Admins are meant to stop this behaviour not to encourage it. Please consider your position.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 13:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::Whatever else one might say, my post at issue was completely serious, and presented as such, so your idea that there's an {{tq|only a joke}} defense in play shows you have not the slightest understanding of what's going on in this controversy. [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 02:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
:::{{yo|EEng}} Yes, {{u|Nigel Ish}} seems to associate you with the "it's only a joke" defense—which does not apply here—but perhaps you should reflect on why that might be. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 12:36, 29 March 2021 (UTC) (''EEng's self-appointed personal scold.'')
*Welp, if the purpose of the block was to stop disruption, it failed in that purpose. --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 14:37, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*:And that's because people like you support disruption as long as it's from one of the favoured few. If a normal editor acted like EEng then they would be told to stop and if they persisted would be very quickly permablocked with no way back, but as long as you've got admins who've got your back you can do anything. Wikipedia cannot pretend to take harassment seriously while this "one rule for them and another for us" continues.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 15:02, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*:::And if you think your characterization of DFO has even the slightest validity, then you ''really'' have not the slightest understanding of what's going on. DFO absolutely ''hates my guts''.{{fbdb}} [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 02:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*::::{{yo|EEng}} Now, now. None of that. I absolutely hate when you add '''content''' that is insulting/belittling/so insensitive of feelings that it is indistinguishable from cruelty. all kidding aside --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 10:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*:::::Together we've beautifully illustrated the distinction between criticizing the edit, not the editor{{snd}}the comment, not the commentor{{refn|Made-up word}}{{snd}}which is indeed the at the heart of all this. Look, when the tenth person in a row showed up to seriously propose that the article read ...
*::::::{{tq|Keiynan Lonsdale is a Nigerian-Australian actor, dancer, and singer-songwriter known for roles in The ''Divergent Series: Insurgent'' (2015), ''The Finest Hours'' (2016), and ''Love, Simon'' (2018). '''Tree''' has also worked as an MTV VJ, and released original music recordings.{{pb}}Lonsdale got his first acting job in 2007, with a bit dancing part in the film ''Razzle Dazzle: A Journey into Dance''. The following year, '''tree''' appeared in an episode of the Australian television medical drama ''All Saints''. '''Tree''' released a single on iTunes titled "One and Only" in 2014. '''Tree''' then played a supporting role as Uriah Pedrad in The Divergent Series: Insurgent (2015), the second film in the series. '''Tree''' briefly reprised the role in The Divergent Series: Allegiant (2016). In 2016, his single "Higher" was included on Connor Franta's curated album Common Culture, volume 5. '''Tree''' next appeared in the historical drama The Finest Hours (2016) as Eldon Hanon, the youngest sailor involved in a rescue at sea. In 2015, '''tree''' auditioned for the role of Jefferson Jackson but this role was given to Franz Drameh.{{pb}}'''Tree''' identifies as queer and prefers not to label '''treeself''' to a specific sexuality.}}
*:::::... I'll admit I went a ''teench'' overboard. But still it's the concept, not the concept-or. all kidding aside [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 14:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*:::::::Yes, at least a "teench", but thanks for admitting at least that (a little more of that would go a long way). But it's the "overboard" thing that people will take notice of, not the other. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 14:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*::::::::Well you must admit that {{tq|'''Tree''' identifies as queer and prefers not to label '''treeself''' to a specific sexuality}} qualifies as overboard as well, so my reaction can't be called entirely disproportionate. Being labeled transphobic didn't have much of a calming effect either. Ya know, if GW had simply said, "To be clear, you're criticizing the idea of using ''tree'' in the article, not your fellow editors, right?", I'm sure I would have said, "Well, I did let myself vent a bit there, and I know I need to keep in mind that not everyone understands why we can't incorporate an avant-garde wording like ''tree'' into an article", and that would have been the end of it. But no, she had to go all ex-arbitrator authoritarian on me.{{pb}}Remember that her original justification for removal was NOTFORUM, which was ''clearly'' inapplicable{{snd}}whether you like the form of expression or not, my post directly addressed the wording of the article. The later shifts in rationale (BPL? No? OK then, how about NPA?) make it clear that the starting point was a visceral dislike, and the reasoning was ginned up later. [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 15:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*:::::::::I agree with most of that, (however I will AGF about other peoples' motives), and in particular I agree that given such provocation your emotional response was understandable, but the fact remains that ... two wrongs don't make a right. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 16:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*::{{yo|Nigel Ish}} I realize you are angry, and that was a heated utterance. However, it's 1) a personal attack, and 2) quite unfounded. At no time did I say the block was wrong or that he should be unblocked. In fact, I said that his conduct is becoming increasingly inappropriate and that he needs to stop. Thanks, sorry bish1 --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 15:27, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*::Hi, [[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]]. I understand your point. But I assessed the consensus of the ANI discussion and found it to be obviously in favor of an unblock. When an admin finds an obvious consensus, I think their appropriate action is to implement that consensus. That's my position. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 15:35, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
*::(multiple e/c's, i expect this post is less useful now) It's a constant source of bemusement to me that people otherwise so enamored with the idea of civility can say, repeatedly and with a straight face, things like "people like you '''support disruption''' as long as it's from one of the favoured few" (emphasis mine). That kind of vilification of other people's motives is an exact replication of the tactic "Democrats want to destroy America". It is much worse, much less civil, much more damaging, than rudely saying someone is being dumb. In a way I guess it's understandable; people are emotional. I'm certainly not proposing some kind of action. I'm sure Bish certainly expected incivility from people when she unblocked. But the logical dissonance is kind of jarring. Perhaps Nigel Ish would like to rephrase, and comment on the cost or benefit of actions, not your motives. Or maybe they wouldn't. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 15:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*::: Fundamentally there seems to be a refusal to admit to responsibility for admin actions - If you use admin powers either by blocking or unblocking then you personally must take responsibility for your actions (rather than hiding behind "it was consensus that forced you to unblock". Bishonen's actions, by unblocking EEng, supports the toxic culture on Wikipedia when the mocking and abuse of real people is applauded so long as it is from the right people and is considered amusing by those with power and influence, just as those who carry out the toxic actions or applaud from the wings. But as it is clear from User:Deepfriedokra and User:Floquenbeam comments that criticism of your actions will not be tolerated and is considered a personal attack, I will not comment here again.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 16:04, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*::::Oh come on. The responsibility of an admin, in this situation, is to judge consensus, and act on it. You may certainly disagree with their judgement concerning consensus, but you can't expect them to be responsible for, or agree with, or defend that consensus. And for an admin to see a clear consensus to unblock and not do so because they disagree with the consensus, is for that admin to substitute their judgement for that of the community. Something we don't generally want. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 16:38, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*Righteous unblock Bish. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the sycamore.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']]_
*Glad to see this unblock, Bish. Not so much for EEng's sake, but for everyone's. I obviously think the block was incorrect, but was willing to defer to consensus if it had been in favor of keeping the block. But I think it was really important that there be no precedent established that an admin can demand an overwhelming consensus to overturn one of his blocks or else he'll go to ArbCom. In this case, we were lucky there was a consensus to unblock, and that claim could be challenged. If there had been no such consensus, I worry that HJ's rhetoric would have appeared to have been sustained, and next time another admin would try to make the same demand. I should have guessed you weren't afraid of ArbCom. (maybe relished the prospect? just a little? :)... ) --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 15:43, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::I'm willing to admit that HJ's threat gave ''me'' pause. But, of course, Bish has bigger cojones than me. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 18:38, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
:::And just imagine how big Bishzilla's are! --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 18:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::::Given that the broader context here is gender identity I think y'all better cool it. [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 02:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
:::Bish has reversed two blocks on mine that required a large amount of chutzpah. I have no hard feelings or the slightest desire to run to the parents, but guts is not a trait Bish lack -- [[User:Guerillero|Guerillero]] [[User_talk:Guerillero|Parlez Moi]] 18:46, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::::Two, [[User:Guerillero|Guerillero]]? [''Thinks. To no avail.''] I only remember the one a month ago... I typed the username at first, but perhaps we needn't actively encourage somebody less tolerant than you to start a list of "reasons to desysop Bishonen". [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:50, 27 March 2021 (UTC).

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | [[File:Admin Barnstar.png|100px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Admin's Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For making the hard decision with dignity and grace. --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 17:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
|}

*Thank you, young [[User:Deepfriedokra|Fritter]]! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:50, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
**It’s her birthday (well, past midnight here, anyway), and what else can one do, but [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCNM706Iv8M&t=0m33s …] —[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|talk]] 23:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*The whole thing makes me think of Asterix village fights (with rotten fish as melee weapon).<abbr title="Smiling face" style="border-bottom: none;">[[File:Face-smile.svg|18px|link=]]</abbr> —[[User:PaleoNeonate|Paleo]][[User talk:PaleoNeonate|Neonate]] – 01:50, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
:{{yo|PaleoNeonate}} ''Mon dieu''. You've hit upon the perfect description of ANI. --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 10:42, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

* Bish - <s>You The Man!</s> I mean, <s>You The Woman!</s> I mean, [https://www.poetry.com/poem/1094/the-oak You Wikipedia's Oak Tree!] [[User:JoJo Anthrax|JoJo Anthrax]] ([[User talk:JoJo Anthrax|talk]]) 15:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

== Platinum Goddess ==

Hey Bishonen. I might have accidently copied your Platinum Goddess to my Sandbox and NL page. [[User:Slightsmile|Slight]][[User talk:Slightsmile|Smile]] 19:33, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
:That's fine, [[User:Slightsmile|Slightsmile]]. I hope it made you smile. Could you give the creator {{u|MjolnirPants}} credit in the history, please? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:37, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
::I want MPants back (yes, I'm aware I blocked him, but doesn't change that I want him back.) [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 20:40, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
:::I did a quick look through MjolnirPants talk page. “We love you but you're outta here and please come back because we love you so much”. I'm not sure what you mean “give credit in the history” but if you show me I'll do it. [[User:Slightsmile|Slight]][[User talk:Slightsmile|Smile]] 21:23, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::::Just mention him in the edit summaries. I realize you have already added the goddess to those two pages and published edit summaries for the additions, but you could perhaps add [[Help:dummy edit|dummy edit]]s, so as to be able to say "btw the Platinum Goddess is the work of [[User:MjolnirPants]]" or similar in the new edit summaries? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:36, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
:::::I miss him too, and I took the liberty of linking to here on his talk: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMjolnirPants&type=revision&diff=1014579859&oldid=995953239]. Just so you all know. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:31, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::There is another one that I miss a great deal. There is getting to be too many of them. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the sycamore.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 21:06, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, indeed, [[User:Roxy the dog|Roxy]]. These people work so hard, and then burn out, I think. (Not me, I'm lazy.) I miss [[User:MrX|MrX]]. And [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]]... though Andy is editing again. Fingers crossed he's seriously back, and pacing himself better. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC).
::::::::I hadn't even realized that MrX had stopped editing. ''sigh'' --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 00:33, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Meh. Guy was kind of a douche, if you ask me. [[User:MPants at work|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MPants at work|Tell me all about it.]] 22:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:Is that you, [[User:MPants at work|Hammerpants]]? I see you got unblocked. Good stuff, but Guy who? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 22:17, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
::MjolnirPants, of course. Heard he got indeffed and everything. [[User:MPants at work|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MPants at work|Tell me all about it.]] 22:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:::Oh, that guy. Sorry, we have all these highly active Guys. Don't talk like that about MjolnirPants, he of the Platinum Goddess! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 22:24, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
::::He don't scare me. Bet I could take him in a fight. [[User:MPants at work|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MPants at work|Tell me all about it.]] 22:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:::::The little at-work user obviously don't realize MjolnirPants protected by powerful benefactress Bishzilla! If little MjolnirPants has split personality disorder, so does Bishonen, don't forget. More better personalities! [[User:Bishzilla|''bishzilla'']] [[User talk:Bishzilla|ROARR!!]] [[User:Bishzilla/Self-requested pocketings|pocket]] 22:47, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
::::::On that note, good night. Why people insist on working in the middle of the night is beyond me! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 22:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
:::::::Who is this guy? -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the grumpy dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 23:08, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Some douche I could beat up, but won't, because I don't like the idea of being eaten. [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 23:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

== March flowers ==
{{User QAIbox
| image = Daisies, Rüdesheim.jpg
| image_upright = 0.8
}}
Thank you for missing. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 19:15, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

== Koli socks ==

Hello, Bishonen. This is regarding a highly disruptive sock master who has spammed this project with unreliable/fake [[Koli people|Koli]]-related claims over the last few years. {{u|Sitush}} used to take care of the mess created by him. But he is editing using a mobile which is in itself a challenging task. You have also blocked him at least once: [[User talk:Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala#You have been topic banned from caste-related pages]]. His numerous socks have again created many Koli-related articles, which are either unreliably sourced or contain made-up claims. His articles are practically always about nonnotable or made-up Koli-related stuff, which at best gets passing mention in reliable sources. Today {{u|Oshwah}} has blocked his 30-odd sockpuppets: [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Thakor_Sumant_Sinhji_Jhala/Archive#28_March_2021]]. Can you or any other admin nuke the mess created by him?

Also, he edits as an IP hopper in a highly disruptive way. I don't know anything about IP ranges, but the first 8 digits of the IP hopper's range always looks like "2401:4900:", e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juna_Padar&diff=977517761&oldid=977491966], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juna_Padar&diff=981467171&oldid=981455812], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juna_Padar&diff=1002868880&oldid=1002858640], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ambliara_State&diff=893118712&oldid=893104191], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ambliara_State&diff=966609988&oldid=961544673], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Koli_states_and_clans&diff=1004636310&oldid=1004617058], etc. So, is there a way to block this IP hopper?

Finally, [[Udham Singh]] has been continuously disrupted by all sort of POV pushers. And the above Koli sockmaster has also jumped on the bandwagon – see [[Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_71#Udham_Singh|here for more details]]. Even a very experienced admin ({{u|Utcursch}}) has wasted a lot of time in reverting his made-up/unreliable details. So the page needs to be semi-protected for a long time. Thanks. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 19:56, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

:{{u|NitinMlk}}, yes, indeed we miss Sitush. Taken as a general problem, this is above my pay grade. I'm going to ping {{ping|SpacemanSpiff|RegentsPark|Abecedare|Vanamonde93}}. Wow, that's a lot of socks flushed at the SPI. Unfortunately it's quicker and easier to create them than to report and block. :-( Therefore, I've no doubt [[Udham Singh]] needs semi. I've given it a year. But as for cleaning up the other messes this villain has created... no. Sorry. I'm not up for that, it's too much and too difficult.

:As for the IP range, I thought for a moment you were saying the first four ''groups'' of digits were always the same — that would have been great, and I could have blocked very easily! But of course I was misreading, and it's far from easy. I'm just going to bed now, but tomorrow I'll do my best with the 6 IPs you link to, meaning I'll block the 6 relevant /64 ranges for a month or two. (I understand you don't do IP ranges, NitinMlk, but this information may be useful for my talkpage stalkers. Er, {{u|Johnuniq}}? Do you think that would be a relevant action?) [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:29, 29 March 2021 (UTC).
::I looked at the six IPs. There is not much value from the edits on the large [[Special:Contributions/2401:4900::/33|2401:4900::/33]] range that covers all six. However, it would be a bit courageous to block it for any significant period. There is nothing that can be done at the moment with the six /64 ranges covering the individual IPs because they are either currently blocked or haven't edited for a long time (October 2020). [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 02:52, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
:::OK, thanks very much, [[User:Johnuniq|John]]. That means there's nothing I can do wrt the IPs, [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]], other than protect articles. Do you have any others besides [[Udham Singh]] to suggest for semi? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:58, 30 March 2021 (UTC).
::::This sock master targets a large number of articles, but his most targeted one is the [[Koli people]] article. Luckily, it survived this time because it was given 'extended confirmed' protection last year: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koli_people&diff=953136755&oldid=953136500]. But the protection will end next month and his socks will again mangle the article completely. <s>So the page needs 'extended confirmed' protection for an indefinite time.</s> Also, I might request you in the coming days to protect [[List of Brahmin dynasties and states]], as the page is continuously disrupted by a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Doremon9087 different sock master]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ar1a1yan this one] is the latest suspected sock of [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Doremon9087|that sock master]]. But I will have to file an SPI first. Thanks. - <s>[[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 19:24, 30 March 2021 (UTC)</s> [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 20:35, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

== Danny Mann ==

I heard that Danny Mann just got deleted from Wikipedia, and I wanna bring him back onto this wiki were he absolutely deserves.
:Hi, {{u|Alexkrzywicki1}}. The article [[Danny Mann]] was deleted in June 2020 after a deletion discussion [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Danny Mann| here]]. The subject was not considered to fulfill Wikipedia's criteria for notability, please see [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)]]. I see you have written the exact same note to four different admins. Please don't do that, as it wastes admin time. We're volunteers like you. Stick to one person. Note, you can sign your posts by typing four tildes <nowiki>( ~~~~ )</nowiki>, which will turn into a signature + timestamp when you publish. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC).
*God! Isn’t life boring, that I’m now reduced to reading comments about people that no ones heard of. If I knew who he was, I’d write him a page. I wonder if I’m the only person stuck in a freezing cold England and climbing up the wall with boredom. The snow has ruined my magnolias and I’ve been banned from touching a paint brush (the decorating type) I’m sick of the two pages I have I user-space. Can’t even go to the pub, not that did anyway, but it was nice to know I could if I wanted to. Too early in the day for a drink, there has to be more to life than this. I think I’ll go and research Danny Mann, who know he might own a Palladian pile somewhere which would make him notable. [[User:Giano|Giano]] [[User talk:Giano|'''(talk)''']] 10:15, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
:*[https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Mann Oh Look!] He’s terribly famous, even more credits than Meghan Markle. Admittedly, he hasn’t tried to bring down the British monarchy by not knowing his own wedding anniversary or understand letters patent, but he’s acted about here and there, we have all sorts of odd people who’ve done that. I would copy paste it all in, but I expect there’ll be some rule about it, and I am very law abiding. [[User:Giano|Giano]] [[User talk:Giano|'''(talk)''']] 10:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
K::*Review [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Danny Mann]] first because a recreated article would be speedily deleted unless it had significant differences from the original, particularly regarding what sources showed notability. That is, if no new sources are available other than those mentioned in the AfD, Danny Mann will have to remain at Simple Wikipedia. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:34, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
:::*Obviously a far more simple project than this, although I can’t believe its arbs are any more simple than ours. [[User:Giano|Giano]] [[User talk:Giano|'''(talk)''']] 10:41, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

== 100% canvassing ==

[[Talk:Midsommar_(film)#Requested_move_8_April_2021]] If you can think of an ''actual'' argument for '''oppose''', please join. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 14:28, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
:Hello there, mr [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Fröding]]. No.. not really. Not sure I can make myself care what the article is called... but the film sounds great. I love the fateful pissing on the ancestral tree and the [[ättestupa]]. The man "wearing Mark's clothes and skinned face" ''might'' be [[Plagiarism|influenced]] by [[Men in Black (1997 film)|''Men in Black'']], I suppose? Still, it's a nice touch. PS, I didn't know you had [https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A5bergss%C3%A5ng your own article] on sv wiki! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:56, 10 April 2021 (UTC).
:: It's a poem that's really easy to learn by heart. Oh well, when little Estelle innocently types "Midsommar" into en-WP, that'll be what she finds. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 17:48, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

== Check Yadav page ==

Hi, first of all, nice to see u after a long time. I am just very busy, so instead of filing [[WP:ARE]] and involving there I am contacting you. {{noping|Shital V Yadav}}, a new user is at disruptive mode on [[Yadav]] related pages. I believe him of being a sockpuppet of another blocked user. But since lot of warnings have been given, it is enough to take action against the vandal who also have [[WP:CIR]] issue as he is removing image from the article.[[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 18:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
::Oh! and now he is reverting all my recent edits on various pages. Totally disruptive.At [[Politics of Bihar]] and many others. It will take a lot of time to undo all of these reverts. If any stalker who is also an admin is here, take appropriate actions on {{U|Shital V Yadav}}[[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 18:49, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
:::please see this case too, [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Vipinahir]]. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 21:01, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

* Mr. Heba Aisha I'm asking why are you not providing valid references for both images on [[Yadav]] page ?? if you add both images with references then I'll never make any changes but you are simply reverted my edit , I checked so many times after that removed the both images.
::::Hi, [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]]. I see the SPI resolved the matter while I slept. The best kind of resolution. Is there anything else that needs reverting? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:18, 11 April 2021 (UTC).
{{Od}}
Yes, its resolved, I m nominating various stubs created by the banned user for delition under G5 criteria.All of them are related to politicians of Yadav caste. If I found someone notable enough, I will create article in future. But at present, I don't think its good to keep them. Btw thanks for responding. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 10:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

== Yadav caste related pages are new hotspots ==

This is very difficult for people like me to verify edits of the users who are here for promoting their own caste and end up distorting historical articles for [[Sanskritisation|upward mobilisation]] on Wikipedia. It becomes more difficult when I found myself alone editing the articles related to some particular topic using quality sources neutrally. {{noping|Sitush}} and others who were doing this are not active now and I would like to tell you that just like we faced the problems in [[Rajput]] related pages few months ago. This time [[Yadav]] caste related pages are new hotspots. Please keep a tab on my talk page and the pages I visit as these users have distorted large number of pages in very short period of time. Thank You.[[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 20:01, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
:Look at this too [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kroshta]]. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 20:03, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
::Sorry, [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba]], I don't have that kind of time. I'm pretty busy in real life. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:55, 12 April 2021 (UTC).

== IP address being blocked ==

How does a IP address gets blocked especially when one didn't do anything wrong. [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 22:44, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]]. That can happen if an admin blocks an [[WP:Rangeblock|IP range]] that there's a lot of vandalism from. Then there may be "collateral damage", meaning innocent IPs are also caught up in the block, though admins try to avoid this. Also, an account can have their IP address blocked if that IP was recently used by a blocked user, known as an [[WP:autoblock|autoblock]] (follow the link to see how to fix this). Have you had any IP block problem yourself? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC).
::Yes, I have. can I get on trouble for having the IP address blocked? [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 00:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:::No, I'm sure you won't get in trouble, [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]]. As I said, it usually happens because somebody else did vandalism. What happened? What kind of message did you get? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC).

::::My IP address was blocked. Not sure how someone gets on my IP address. [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 14:59, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

::::How does someone else use my IP address? [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 02:27, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

:::::Unless your IP address is static, it'll get re-assigned to other people sometimes. {{u|Johnuniq}}, could you advise Cwater1, please? I'm not very good at this. {{u|Cwater1}}, please tell us what kind of message you got when your IP address was blocked. It'll help us to help you. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 09:01, 26 April 2021 (UTC).
::::::I replied at [[User talk:Cwater1#IP address]] and I think further discussion should occur there. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 09:59, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks very much, [[User:Johnuniq|John]]. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:48, 26 April 2021 (UTC).

== Please do not add troll comments like this one to my talk page ==

"Vapourmile, it seems to me you are confusing Guy Macon with Emmanuel Macron. Some people can be offended when you persistently get their names wrong, so please try not to. Bishonen | tålk 16:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)."

[[User:Vapourmile|Vapourmile]] ([[User talk:Vapourmile|talk]]) 16:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

:@Bishonen: I've mentioned you at ANI in the context of Vapoumile's Official Complaint about Guy. '''[[User:Acroterion|Acroterion]] [[User talk:Acroterion|(talk)]]''' 16:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
::Thank you, [[User:Acroterion|Acroterion]]. The [[:File:Gojira 1954 poster 3.jpg|Gojira 1954 poster]] is pretty cool, isn't it? Don't post here again, Vapourmile. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC).
:::I gotta love that poster, not least because it's two years older than I am. The facial expressions on the two people at the lower left are intriguing. Neither looks frightened. The man looks seriously pissed off, and the women looks a bit enamored of Gojira (which probably explains the man's expression). --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
:::Researching further (as I am wont to do), I see that there is ''[[Gojirasaurus]]'', denigrated by Wikipedia as a "dubious genus". (On the other hand, I know a fair number of dubious "geniuses".) --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
::::Haha. Me and Trypto are the same age. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the grumpy dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 20:41, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
:::::You have my sympathy. (But maybe dog years and fish years are different?) --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
::::::[''Bishzilla, a truly mature lady, briskly stuffs both the young little users in her pocket.''] And stay there! Sit on sofa! [[User:Bishzilla|''bishzilla'']] [[User talk:Bishzilla|ROARR!!]] [[User:Bishzilla/Self-requested pocketings|pocket]] 20:09, 14 April 2021 (UTC).
:::::::Gimme the popcorn, Roxy! And where's the remote? --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:14, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
::I should thank Bishzilla for reminding me that I'm far from the oldest individual here (by millennia, it seems!). An interesting bit of wiki-anthropology: when I joke on {{u|EEng}}'s talk page, he tells me to get off his lawn, and when I joke here, I wind up inside a giant lizard, sitting on a sofa. So many bossy oldsters! --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:24, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

== Swedish emigration to the United States FA concerns ==

{{ping|Bishonen}} Greetings! I saw that you promoted [[Swedish emigration to the United States]] and thought I should inform you of my concerns about the 2007-nominated article. It is mainly about references; many paragraphs are either unreferenced or are supported by just one. Could you take a quick look at the article and see if it could be improved? Cheers. [[User:Wretchskull|Wretchskull]] ([[User talk:Wretchskull|talk]]) 10:24, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
:Sorry, [[User:Wretchskull|Wretchskull]]. It would entail a lot more research in an area that is no longer "hot" for me. Altogether, I'm really not crazy about trying to re-source articles I wrote once, especially when it was so long ago. If somebody wants that one to stay featured, I'm afraid they'll have to adopt it. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC).

== Welcome ==

How are you? , Just came here after seeing you active. Most of the old people which I found here are missing now, including some good admins. Hope you are enjoying the real life. COVId has striked once again in India and government has strictly enforced lockdown once again, and made us jobbers. How's the condition [[Japan|there]]. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 20:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba]]. I'm not Japanese — I'm half a world away — I just have a misleading username. See my responses [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bishonen/Archive_23#HNY! here]. We're having a nasty third wave of infections where I am, which is in Europe. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC).

== Request for protecting the article on [[Varma (surname)‎]] ==

Hi Bishonen, hope you are fine. Would request you to protect the article on Varma (surname)‎ from persistent vandalism by a particular user (or as a sock) in spite of all explanations in edit summaries as well as warnings on the user's talk page. Please help. Thanks & Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 10:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]]. I have blocked the user indefinitely from editing the article. One of the newfangled partial blocks. They can still edit the talkpage, in case they take a notion to discuss. Do you think the article still requires protection? Please let me know if further socks or IPs turn up, then I'll semiprotect. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:13, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
::Thanks Bishonen for your prompt response / action, as usual. I shall let you know in case socks turn up, and the article requires protection. Warm Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 13:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

== Pahela Baisakh Page ==

Dear Bishonen

I once again turn to you for advice.

I had previously reached out to the Administrator's Notice Board, Neill N, Soumya Biswas, Sarah Welch and Firestar 464. I haven't heard from any.

Please have a look at the Pahela Baishakh page.

There has been a controversy there since at least April 2017. This pertains to the origins of the Bengali New Year. There are two theories - Mughal and Vikramaditya/Hindu/Bikramaditto/Indic.

More recently, key information supported by citations pertaining to the latter theory were deleted. Since April 15, I tried restoring some of that information from previous versions compiled by editors like Sarah Welch (who is one of the best on Indic issues). Whenever I did so, the material I restored was reverted. I would like to desist from edit warring but felt that I needed to get my point across both in the Talk Page and by reverting the deletions.

I didn’t delete any existing material. I only restored material from before. It not material that I introduced. I only restored although I may have revised the wording used earlier.

The Pahela Baisakh page will benefit from an independent review. I did try explaining what I did on the Talk Page. I didn’t succeed. Three or four individuals, including anonymous IP numbers, who may or may not be subject matter experts were very active in reverting my efforts. I am not sure whether sockpuppetry is involved. The information I restored is called "junk", "a lie", "irrelevant" etc. I seek an independent read of what's happening. I would appreciate your advice. You would be neutral as an outsider.

This is not a complaint on any individual. Its about the page's neutrality.

Thank you

[[User:Dipendra2007|Dipendra2007]] ([[User talk:Dipendra2007|talk]]) 00:45, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

:Hi, [[User:Dipendra2007|Dipendra2007]]. I'm afraid I'm very far from a specialist in these matters, and I must decline to intervene. An IP who fails to sign on the talkpage does seem inexperienced, but on the other hand they discuss properly and there is also another user speaking against your version. Since you have already tried [[WP:AN]] and several users individually (who I do believe know more about it than I do), it's hardly for me to put my oar in. Perhaps one of my knowledgeable talkpage stalkers may have a comment for you. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 07:45, 23 April 2021 (UTC).

Ok. I hear you, Bishonen. I may intermittently, respectfully and selectively revert as the editors do not seem to be amenable. There is an element of rudeness in the comments made on my Talk Page. The material I reintroduced was from Sarah Welch's page which in my view was rigorous. cheers [[User:Dipendra2007|Dipendra2007]] ([[User talk:Dipendra2007|talk]]) 16:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

== Applying for Release to Elsewhere ==

Yes, I have read the book (and your page on self-blocking policies). I ask, however, that two customary terms be ignored:

* The prohibition from emailing others. I would like to voice concern to the ArbCom over something a certain functionary did (not you).
* The waiting period. I have asked for Release from [[User:TonyBallioni]] a day ago.

Let this be as long as you would like to grant (other passing admins could assign anything up to indefinite), and take note of my "will" at my user page. --[[User:NotReallySoroka|NotReallySoroka]] ([[User Talk:NotReallySoroka|talk]]) (formerly DePlume) 15:56, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
:Noting here, {{u|NotReallySoroka}}, that if you go to [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee]], the committee's email address is published. The block that would be applied by Bishonen would prevent you from using the "Email this user" link, but nothing prevents anyone from emailing the Arbcom directly. However, if you are going to pursue something along this line, I would suggest that you hold off on being blocked until that matter is resolved, as you are not truly disengaging if you are bringing a matter to arbcom attention. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 18:00, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
::Thank you, {{U|Risker}}. It is a relatively minor matter that does not involve myself, so it can go. --[[User:NotReallySoroka|NotReallySoroka]] ([[User Talk:NotReallySoroka|talk]]) (formerly DePlume) 18:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
:::Hi, {{u|NotReallySoroka}}. I've read the request you wrote to Tony Ballioni, before you removed it, and the insight it gives me into your motives for this request worries me. I don't like the connection with a particular Miscellany for deletion, and I don't understand why you changed from Tony to me. Also, I especially don't like your intention to keep worrying at wikimatters, which you describe above ("I would like to voice concern to the ArbCom over something a certain functionary did"). Altogether, I don't want to do this, sorry. There's too much baggage with it. As you have seen, since you have read my [[User:Bishonen/Self-requested blocks|conditions page]], I will decline these things at my discretion, and that's what I'm doing now. I wrote this before I saw Risker's comment and your reply to her, but I'm afraid those don't change my mind. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC).
::::Hello. Your point with the MfD is a rightful worry, indeed, though as of now it is not the only now. I deleted the request to Tony so as to think twice, but now my mind is set. I found you because you are still activity.
::::As for the wikimatters, it does not involve me and I can just talk it out with the fuctionaries involved.
::::[[User:NotReallySoroka|NotReallySoroka]] ([[User Talk:NotReallySoroka|talk]]) (formerly DePlume) 19:44, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

== In relation to the debate over the article about climate change ==

== Deletion review for [[:List of scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming]] ==
An editor has asked for a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review#List of scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming|deletion review]] of [[:List of scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming]]. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. [[User:Epimonide|Epimonide]] ([[User talk:Epimonide|talk]]) 13:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
:Thank you, [[User:Epimonide|Epimonide]]. Is this your first account? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 16:32, 24 April 2021 (UTC).
::Just, y'know, wondering. [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 18:27, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
: For future reference {{u|Epimonide}}, the [[WP:CON|consensus]] at the [[WP:AFD|discussion]] (see: [[WP:PROD]]) is not the same as "speedy" (see [[WP:CSD]]). And "Just, y'know" cause 2 of the first three edits are at [[WP:DRV]]. Not the usual entry point for a new editor. So I agree, it's not unusual to "wonder". IJS. [[User:Ched|— Ched]] ([[User talk:Ched|talk]]) 18:38, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I do not know, nor do I understand what all this means, so I will just answer Bishonen. No, this is my second account; I do not remember the credentials to my first account. Well wishes, [[User:Epimonide|Epimonide]] ([[User talk:Epimonide|talk]]) 19:26, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

== RE: Warning ==
{{further|User talk:Tryptofish#Tot}}
You block me?, I not do nothing. That behaviour needs to be checked. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. --[[User:Pedro158|Pedro158]] ([[User talk:Pedro158|talk]]) 21:31, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
:No, I haven't blocked you. Get a grip, and don't put nonsense on my page again. Thank you, {{u|Tryptofish}}. This comment may stay, but I ask my tp stalkers to remove any additions from the same user. I'm going to bed. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:48, 29 April 2021 (UTC).
:Never mind, little stalkers, I see {{u|Ched}} just indeffed the user. Well, I guess they weren't a very hopeful case. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC).
:: I couldn't find anything productive in history, and I seriously doubt there would have been anything positive in the future. If any of the adminy types that {{tpw}} your page think I'm wrong - I won't contest an unblock. The "I am make moar better edits" stuff just doesn't play anymore for me however. [[User:Ched|— Ched]] ([[User talk:Ched|talk]]) 22:03, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

== Happy Walpurgis! ==
[[File:Bonefire at skansen on walpurgis night.jpg|thumb| More Valborgsmässoafton fires!]]
No public celebrations this year either, but at least it is sunny (and not snowing!). There will be some serious herring in the Bonadea household this afternoon. I hope your Valborg eve is enjoyable, whether you celebrate it or not. [https://sverigesradio.se/avsnitt/1712901] --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' [[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]] 08:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
:Dammit. Missed schmutziger donnerstag again. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the grumpy dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 10:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
:No [[:sv:Majbrasa|Majbrasa]] this year! Sad! {{u|Roxy the dog}}, you can always keep your powder dry for the [[Oktoberfest]] ("beer festival and travelling funfair"). [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:09, 30 April 2021 (UTC).
::Many years ago, I spent a week drunk, dressed as a Monk in Munchen during Oktoberfest. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the grumpy dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 11:37, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

== Sock ==

Hey Bish, {{Vandal|KażdenIPmożeWlKlNGERbyć iskajcieSEsami}} is a sock of Wikinger, please revoke email access and restore the autoblock you accidentally removed while revoking TPA. Thanks! ''[[User:JavaHurricane| Java]][[User talk:JavaHurricane|Hurricane]]'' 12:35, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
:Thanks, [[User:JavaHurricane|JavaH]], done. Little talkpage stalkers: a global lock would be good also, or at least on Commons, if anybody with those tools reads this. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 12:44, 1 May 2021 (UTC).
::Requested and received. :) [[User:Blablubbs|Blablubbs]]|[[User talk:Blablubbs|talk]] 13:31, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Thank you, [[User:Blablubbs|Blablubbs|]] and [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]]. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:01, 1 May 2021 (UTC).
:::: Sure, no problem. I had your Commons page on my watchlist, and this is why I was able to act quickly. In other cases, you can just ping me.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 19:06, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

== Commons ==

Just saw this [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Plush.rhino.bearing.gifts.jpeg deletion request]. You might consider uploading it to en.WP per [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline]]. Unfortunately, Commons doesn't allow non-free uploads, and since toys are copyright protected, the image will be deleted. [[User:Atsme|Atsme]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 13:29, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
:Thank you, [[User:Atsme|Atsme]], but I wanted it for a particular purpose, which it has long since served, so I guess I don't really mind if it's deleted. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 18:59, 1 May 2021 (UTC).

== Personal attack in edit summary by POV pushers ==

Hi Bishonen.. Hope you are fine. Sorry to bother you, but can something be done about the personal attacks in Edit Summaries by IP editors in the article on [[Baidya]], one on the revision dated 30th April and another again in the recent one yesterday! Please help, if you can. Thanks & Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 13:40, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
:Sure, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]]. Fortunately the IPs both belong to the same /64 range, so I could easily block them (and all their brothers and sisters) from the article with a long [[WP:partial block|partial block]], 3 months. I've [[WP:REVDEL|revision deleted]] the edit summaries. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 18:14, 4 May 2021 (UTC).
::Thank you so much, Bishonen! Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 05:10, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

== Stonkaments ==

I hate to be a pest, but could you instruct {{User|Stonkaments}} to stop commenting on my talk page? I told him to stop a few weeks ago, and I just undid the fourth unwanted comment they've made since then. Their [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=prev&oldid=1020571510&diffmode=source second] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=next&oldid=1020571510&diffmode=source third] edits there were pure trolling; posting a D/S notice immediately after me and Trypotofish were [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=1020570710&oldid=1020569422&diffmode=source discussing] the fact that the page is under D/S. Note that this happened less than [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=1020545115&oldid=1020544364 3 hours] after I reiterated that I didn't want them commenting on my talk page, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=1020411694&oldid=1020410787&diffmode=source less than a day] after I'd first told them not to comment on my talk page. There's no doubt Stonk is well aware of my wishes, and our community norms here, since they've been asked to stop commenting on others' talk pages.

Their [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=1021954709&oldid=1021944807&diffmode=source latest comment] is a transparent attempt to disrupt efforts to put together an FAQ for the page, where they're currently engaged in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Race_and_intelligence&diff=prev&oldid=1021964001&diffmode=source throwing shade] all around, after [[User talk:DGG#RfC/Arbitration on R&I|already being told]] by the most sympathetic admin to their cause to drop the stick and step away. [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 18:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:I was trying to help improve the proposed FAQ, not disrupt it. I forgot that I was asked not to comment on their talk page―I apologize, it won't happen again. [[User:Stonkaments|Stonkaments]] ([[User talk:Stonkaments|talk]]) 18:30, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
::I'm a bit surprised that Stonkaments would have forgotten that, but we can AGF, I suppose. I'd encourage one of those fancy new kinds of single-page blocks, that just blocks posting to MPants' talk pages, along with a formal warning.
::@MPants: when you reverted the comment, you used a vulgar edit summary. Given past history of how that has been wikilawyered, please don't do that any more. And don't anyone else get any ideas from what I just said. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 18:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Tryp, you know I respect your views on most matters a great deal, but you're ''really'' not helping here. [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 18:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Thank you for your input. Out of curiosity, wouldn't AGF call for a warning before a block? I ask because I would appreciate the opportunity to demonstrate good faith and show that it was a genuine mistake due to forgetfulness. As way of explanation: due to my (over-)involvement in the R&I discussion recently, I have been on the receiving end of a lot of hostility, and I genuinely confused MPants with another editor who has directed hostility my way[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Race_and_intelligence&diff=prev&oldid=1020039298]. [[User:Stonkaments|Stonkaments]] ([[User talk:Stonkaments|talk]]) 18:53, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
::::Since I'm ''really'' not helping here, I'm being a bit, shall we say, nuanced, when I refer to AGF. In other words, I don't really believe for a minute that you forgot, but I also don't think it's worth arguing about. And I think that if you get a talk-page partial block, you should consider yourself fortunate. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 18:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::I will by no means block an editor to reinforce a promise they make above ("I apologize, it won't happen again"). Just don't forget again, {{u|Stonkaments}}. Nor will I reproach {{u|MjolnirPants}} for using a salty expression when reverting a post from somebody they ''had'', after all, already told they weren't welcome. OK. Everybody happy, I hope. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:14, 7 May 2021 (UTC).
::::::That's all I asked for. Thanks, Bish. [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 19:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Since I seem to be in the position of clarifying, I never asked Bish to do anything with respect to the salt, or the pepper, of the edit summary. As Bish correctly understands, there should be nothing wrong with that. But some admins, who should know better, think that they have to be civility enforcers, and I'm trying to get MPants to understand that he can fall into a trap with that. It does him no favors to pretend otherwise. Let's not repeat history. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Tryp, I've literally acknowledged your point twice at your talk. Ever heard the expression "don't sell past the close"? [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 19:43, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::I was responding to Bish, not to you, now let's drop this. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::{{facepalm}} I directed a comment at MPants, and Bishonen responded as though I had directed it at her, so I responded to Bishonen and MPants acted like I had directed it at him. Sheesh! ''Now'' let's drop this. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:57, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
==Happy Adminship Anniversary!==

<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color:#E6E6FA; border: 1px solid #7D00B3; margin: 0.5em auto; padding: 0.5em; width:90%; text-align: center">[[File:Icon tools.svg|50px|left]]Happy Adminship Anniversary![[File:Nuvola apps date.svg|50px|right]]
Have a very [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=rights&page=User%3ABishonen happy adminship anniversary] on your special day!

Best wishes, [[User:CAPTAIN RAJU|'''CAPTAIN RAJU''']][[User_talk:CAPTAIN RAJU|(T)]] 12:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
</div>

*Right. Thank you. I'm old, don't remind me. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 12:33, 8 May 2021 (UTC).

== Sarah.Xenos ==

Just an FYI, {{u|Sarah.Xenos}} finally returned to editing on 5 May, still making basic errors. --[[User:AussieLegend|'''AussieLegend''']] ([[User talk:AussieLegend#top|<big>✉</big>]]) 17:46, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
:Yees. Thanks, [[User:AussieLegend|AussieLegend]]. I'm not ignoring this, but I'll hang fire for a bit, and watch. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC).
::[[User:AussieLegend|AussieLegend]], I've had enough of the user's continued errors and their unresponsiveness; I've blocked them indefinitely, again with a nice block notice both on their page and in the log. We shall see what happens, if anything. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 15:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC).
:::It's a shame that it had to come to this but it's for the better. Cheers. --[[User:AussieLegend|'''AussieLegend''']] ([[User talk:AussieLegend#top|<big>✉</big>]]) 02:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
::::Actually, as soon as she was indeffed, she did respond, [[User:AussieLegend|AussieLegend]], with one sentence — you can see my own reply on her page. I won't unblock without considerably more show of willingness on her side. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 10:15, 16 May 2021 (UTC).

== A beer for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Export hell seidel steiner.png|70px]]
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Many thanks for your help. Very much appreciated. [[User:Denisarona|Denisarona]] ([[User talk:Denisarona|talk]]) 09:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
|}

:Aaahh. [''Swigs deeply''.] Is it [[Oktoberfest]] already? Thanks, [[User:Denisarona|Denis]]. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 09:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC).

== A bowl of strawberries for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Erdbeerteller01.jpg|120px]]
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Going for a short break, case closed, but feeling tired of it. Keep taking on vandals. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 12:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
|}

Oh, yum. Perfectly ripe. Thank you, [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba]]. 🍰 [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC).

==Advice on probable Smurf account==

I have encountered a user using what appears to be a Smurf account and I was going to file an SPI but Twinkle does not allow a report that has only one named account (clearly I have no knowledge of the main user account). They appear as a new user and created and submitted a polished Draft within 2 minutes of arriving and are now pushing hard to get their Draft reviewed and accepted. I believe that they may well be block evading or part of a meat farm. Any advice on how I deal with this would be most welcome.
Thanks ''''' [[User:Velella|Velella]] ''''' ''[[User talk:Velella|Velella]] Talk ''  22:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Velella|Velella]]. Not all knowledgable purported newbies are socks in the negative sense. Compare the distinction between "Inappropriate uses of alternative accounts" and "Legitimate uses" in [[WP:SOCK]], and see also [[WP:CLEANSTART]]. But I'm not saying you should do nothing, if you suspect an inappropriate use of multiple accounts here. Perhaps start by giving me the account name so I can take a look? Use e-mail if you like. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 00:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC).
::PS, after taking a look at your page, I think "smurf" means an [[WP:UPE|UPE]] rather than a sock — right? If it's the account I see on your page, never mind about e-mailing, I'll take a look tomorrow. Now I'm actually officially asleep (and a bit stupid, as you can see). [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 01:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC).

:::Many thanks. You are right about the user but it is not [[WP:UPE|UPE]] as they as they did, reluctantly, make a declaration, but they also claim 4 to 5 years experience and clearly know their way round Wikipedia and seem so very intent on getting their draft approved. I find it very difficult to believe that they haven't spent some time on Wikipedia, but if so, why not use their established user name? The way they behave could easily lead to a block if they cross the line of civility and I suspect that this is what may have happened in the past and they are now block evading. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but I have no reasonable idea of how a user appears full skilled in the ways of Wikipedia otherwise? Many thanks for any light that you can throw on this case. ''''' [[User:Velella|Velella]] ''''' ''[[User talk:Velella|Velella]] Talk ''  08:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
::::[[User:Velella|Velella]], an earlier version of the article was deleted as non-notable ("Fails [[WP:NCORP]]") on 16 Feb 2021 following [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Intelligence Node|this AfD]]. That version had been created in 2016 by an SPA called {{noping|Tnodett}}. The current draft isn't very similar, not in text and not in sources, so I'd presume it's not based on the deleted article. (I suppose it also follows that TullikaInode1 isn't particularly likely to be a sock of Trodnett.) Nevertheless, if an article is deleted on notability grounds, it's not likely that the subject has amassed much notability a mere three months later. And the sourcing is just as weak for the draft as for the deleted article. If the two versions had been more similar, I could have speedied the draft, but as it is, I won't do that. However, it absolutely needs to stay in draftspace, where we can AGF that it's being improved. I'll write to the user on their page... when I get back from the Coop. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC).
:::::Many thanks for your advice and investigation. My suspicion was that the company was employing a paid editor to make an article stick where it had failed before. If this was so, then the current editor probably has a number of other articles to their name, probably all under different user names. Regards ''''' [[User:Velella|Velella]] ''''' ''[[User talk:Velella|Velella]] Talk ''  17:20, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
::::::Or else they genuinely work for the company. In any case, it's like trying to hold back the tide, isn't it? I just posted on their page. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 17:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC).
:::::::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hrN8dh50FY I'm just putting this here.] [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 16:59, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Ahh, [[:sv:Banarne|Banarne]]. Excellent. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:55, 18 May 2021 (UTC).

== A beer for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Export hell seidel steiner.png|70px]]
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Many, many thanks (this will help while waiting for October!!). [[User:Denisarona|Denisarona]] ([[User talk:Denisarona|talk]]) 12:21, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
|}

== Request for assistance ==
Could I please get your help on [[Endowment_(Mormonism)]], I was about to engage in another edit war, but felt it would be counterproductive, and seek a cooler head than my own. [[User:Epachamo|Epachamo]] ([[User talk:Epachamo|talk]]) 10:37, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Epachamo|Epachamo]]. I've posted a sharp warning on the user's page. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:30, 21 May 2021 (UTC).

== Request for protecting the article on [[Baidya]] or blocking the caste warrior(s) ==

Hi Bishonen.. hope, you are fine. The article on [[Baidya]] has become a subject of edit warring by POV pushers. Once I have reviewed the content added, I found out that the editor is citing a Journal by a Baidya editor only in order to validate what the Baidyas have claimed all through, I mean Brahmin status, possibly claimed by most of the castes, as you know. Also, I have clearly explained on talk page that all the three other sources, mentioned as supporting ones by the user on the talk page itself, are Raj era sources and cannot be considered as per long-term consensus. Now, another user, Bengaliwikipro (not sure, may not be a sock) is reverting the edits without any explanation, and is now engaged in edit war in spite of explaining everything and warning the users (in the article's talk page as well as edit summaries). Please help! Thanks & Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 11:26, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]]. I have partial-blocked Bengaliwikipro from the article for six months. Hopefully, that will [[Pour encourager les autres|encourager les autres]]. Please let me know if the disruption persists. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:49, 23 May 2021 (UTC).
::Thank you, Bishonen. Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 13:17, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

== Please choose the discussions on my talk page ==

Hello buddy,
I request you to kindly close the ongoing discussions on my page as they are all solved.
Thanks You. [[User:EditGodGuru45|EditGodGuru45]] ([[User talk:EditGodGuru45|talk]]) 13:47, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
:It's not necessary to close discussions on user talkpages, [[User:EditGodGuru45|EditGodGuru45]]. Also, I disagree that they're "solved". Since you're here, I'll just ask you to listen better to experienced editors, rather than assume you know better. Wikipedia goes by ''reliable sources only''; not by your personal knowledge. Therefore it's quite inappropriate to be telling other editors that they don't know as much as you, or even that they "know nothing", as you said to [[User:Yamaguchi先生|Yamaguchi先生]]. If they have more Wikipedia experience, it's, on the contrary, likely that they know more about the principles for editing here. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:01, 27 May 2021 (UTC).

== Harassment ==
Sorry for the Harrasment
I will not do again -- did not see the message
regards. {{unsigned|SadirahFierg}}
:Good, thank you! Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes <nowiki>( ~~~~)</nowiki>. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 16:30, 29 May 2021 (UTC).

== 2001:8004::/34 ==

* {{userlinks|2001:8004::/34}}
Recently partially blocked. I am seeing new vandalism,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nambucca_Valley_Council&diff=prev&oldid=1025511496][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doja_Cat&diff=prev&oldid=1025519617][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bandaranaike_International_Airport&diff=prev&oldid=1025759041][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_IT_Crowd&diff=prev&oldid=1025864628][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_The_IT_Crowd_characters&diff=prev&oldid=1025863791] but also some reasonable edits, so it is likely that more that one user in in that range. Not sure what, if anything, should be done. Maybe block a smaller range? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 02:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
:[[User:Guy Macon|Guy]], you picked the most recent admin in the log, but I'm afraid that flatters me. I added a page ([[Sushi]]) to the partial block which had already been placed, but that doesn't mean I have an understanding of these big ranges. /64s, those are what I can handle. I suggest you place a call to one of the more competent admins involved, such as {{u|Favonian}}. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:43, 30 May 2021 (UTC).
::{{ping|Guy Macon}} Don't know about the "competent" bit, but I make up for it in bloodthirst: [[Special:Contribs/2001:8004:c40::/44|2001:8004:c40::/44]] blocked site-wide for a month. This covers most of the miscreants you reported, though not [[Special:Contribs/2001:8004:2730:97de:c1b7:ca7e:a435:2591|2001:8004:2730:97de:c1b7:ca7e:a435:2591]]. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 09:26, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Hail to the [[User:Favonian|Terminator]]! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 09:43, 30 May 2021 (UTC).
:::: Welcome home, [[User:Favonian|Favonian]]. We knew you'd be back. After all, it was programmed in you. Oh, and you executed that programming beautifully! You are an infiltration prototype. The only one of your kind. We resurrected you. Advanced Cyberdyne's work. Amended it. The human condition no longer applies to you. Accept what you already know. That you were made to serve a purpose. To achieve what no other machine has achieved before. To infiltrate, find a target and block that target from editing Wikipedia for 30 days.[https://ru.wikiquote.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80:_%D0%94%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B4%D1%91%D1%82_%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C#%D0%A1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD] --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 12:45, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
::::: Your offerings of flattery have been accepted, oh faithful minions. So far, you've only been exposed to my messages in writing. When we get full audio, my sinister, somewhere-in-Europe accent will firmly establish my connection to the Immortal Arnie. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 12:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
==Sivakasi Riots article bothered by a sock? ==
The contents of the [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]] article are being deleted by a new user called Vendsoil. Based on the way he edits, he is most probably the sock of EruTheLord. I have filed a complaint accordingly [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/EruTheLord|here]]. Please go through this issue when you find the time. Thank you.[[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 15:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, {{u|Mayan302}}. Thank you for creating [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/EruTheLord |the SPI]]. I'm not sure why you ask me specifically to look into it? I haven't had anything to do with EruTheLord other than a warning in August 2020. May I suggest {{u|El_C}} would be a better admin to approach if you're becoming impatient with the lack of response at the SPI? (Though I'm sure admins + CU will get to it eventually.) [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 15:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC).
::Hi Bishonen. I don't know a lot of admins. :). Thank you for your help! [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 04:28, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
:::I see the SPI was successful. Well done, [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]]! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:55, 31 May 2021 (UTC).
:::: Thank you![[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 16:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

== Liar ==
[[File:Cleaning brushes.jpg|thumb|200px|Multicoloured climbing brushflowers on a wall]]
Well, if you must know, it's a ''bottle brush tree''.😜 --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 15:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hmmm. Would that be the [[Grevillea paradoxa]]? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 16:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC).
{{-}}

== Persecution of Dalits ==

Hello. How are you?

While I was away, [[Persecution of Dalits]] was redirected. The content I added was totally unalike from how it was prior 2008.

2008 Version - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persecution_of_Dalits&oldid=235205811

My version - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persecution_of_Dalits&oldid=1025630024

Now expanded more. What should I do to avoid another redirect and expand this article? [[User:Friendly Eagle|Friendly Eagle]] ([[User talk:Friendly Eagle|talk]]) 18:47, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

:Hi, [[User:Friendly Eagle|Friendly Eagle]]. You should discuss on the [[Talk:Persecution of Dalits|talkpage]] and explain why you believe it should be an article rather than a redirect. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:29, 30 May 2021 (UTC).

=== small issue with SoftLavander ===
Hi
this user removed something from my user page
what are the rules on Wikipedia and what is a SOAPBOX
I put a link on it because I saw that the user Riquix put his own website ...
regards
[[User:SadirahFierg|SadirahFierg]] ([[User talk:SadirahFierg|talk]]) 09:47, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, {{u|SadirahFierg}}. You can read about what you may have in your user page at [[WP:UPYES]]. Among other things, it says there that {{tq|"You are also welcome to include a simple link to your personal home page, although you should not surround it with any promotional language"}}, which is pretty much what you had, so I'm not sure why [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] removed it. But they are an experienced editor who would not do so at random, so I suggest you ask them on [[User talk:Softlavender|their talkpage]]. Note, though, that if people provide a link for you, you should click on it, rather than ask somebody else. Softlavender did explain their edit in the edit summary — though in my opinion possibly not sufficiently — by linking to [[WP:NOTSOAPBOX]]. Click on it to see what a soapbox is, please. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:18, 31 May 2021 (UTC).

Sivakasi riots of 1899

2021-05-31T04:29:55Z

Mayan302: removal of content with reference. reverting again

{{pp-move-dispute|small=yes}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
The '''Sivakasi riots of 1899''' are a series of communal disturbances which occurred during 6 June 1899 in [[Sivakasi]], [[Tamil Nadu]],Virudhunagar district, India.

==Background==
The Nadar historian Samuel Sargunar claimed that the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] are the descendants of the ancient rulers of [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan kingdom]] and that when [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak rulers]] captured the Pandya country, they divided the country into several ''Palayams'' (divisions) and appointed [[Palaiyakkarar|Palaiyakkars]] as rulers. The [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] rulers of Tamil Nadu, as per the claims of Sargunar, imposed ''Deshaprashtam'' (ostracism) on the ancient Pandyas (Nadars), to ensure that their rise wouldn't ever happen.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=80–90| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277By K. Rajayyan">History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277 By K. Rajayyan</ref> These claims are,however, not baseless. The traditions followed by the [[Nadan (Nadar subcaste)|Nelamaikkarars]] and the existence of the ruins beneath the Teri palmrya forests of [[Tiruchendur]] and ancient Pandyan capital city of [[Korkai]], where the Nadar population is predominant, suggest they could very well be the heirs of the [[Early Pandyan Kingdom|Early Pandyas]].<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87">{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=87| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name=" Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104">[https://books.google.com/books?id=AzRbqgyVHb4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=rajani+kothari&hl=en&ei=TfaOTJa_N86OjAf3yJyJDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=nadar%20pandyas&f=false] Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104</ref> However, there is little evidence to suggest that the Nadars were the descendants of later Pandya rulers. This belief, that the Nadars had been the kings of Tamil Nadu, became the [[dogma]] of the Nadar community in the 19th century.<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87"/> The Nadars were a community mostly engaged in the palmyra industry, including the production of toddy and were therefore considered lower than other middle castes, but relatively much higher than the low castes in the 19th century. A small endogamanous group of aristocratic Nadars, known as Nelamaikkarars, were wealthy landlords.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India">[https://books.google.com/books?id=14_D50nU7R8C&pg=PA77&dq=caldwell+nadars&hl=en&ei=GmpqTMD8BozksQPU5r3FDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=caldwell%20nadars&f=false Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India By Dyron B. Daughrity]</ref> Due to their association with toddy, the Nadars were not allowed enter temples built by castes above them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=22–23| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

Some Nadar traders migrated to northern [[Tirunelveli]] and [[Virudhunagar]] to settle down in these regions. In course of time, these Nadars (Northern Nadars) became commercially skilled and therefore became upwardly mobile in the late 19th century. [[Mercantilism]] played crucial roles in facilitating their upward mobility. As the wealth of the [[Northern Nadars]] increased, they gradually began to adopt the customs of the [[Kshatriya|North Indian Kshtriyas]] in order to improve their social status as well. This process is known as [[Sanskritisation]]. They also tried to disassociate themselves from their Nadar climber counterparts and many began to adopt the title ‘Nadan’, a title which was before only used by the aristocratic Nelamaikkarars. To punctuate their wealthy and powerful position in the society, the Nadars of Sivakasi hired [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]] as their palanquin bearers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=105–109| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The upward mobility and Kshatriya pretensions of the Nadars of Six towns of Ramanad caused resentment among, castes above them, the [[Vellalar]]s and especially the [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]],the military caste just above the Nadars.<ref name="Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum">[https://books.google.com/books?id=igfd9YYCqf8C&pg=PA511&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&hl=en&ei=rrDkTN_aK4KwvgOkx7i3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false] Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum,Pg-511</ref><ref name="State and Society in India By A.R. Desai">[https://books.google.com/books?id=0yqV1Ux0oGIC&pg=PA511&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&hl=en&ei=m7LkTJ21MIzOvQOYz_25Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false] State and Society in India By A.R.</ref> Part of this change in the Nadar community resulted in some of them converting to [[Christianity]], both [[Catholicism]] and [[Protestantism]]. However, a majority of almost 90% remained [[Hindu]]s.<ref name="Clothey">{{cite book|last=Clothey|first=Fred W.|title=Ritualizing on the boundaries: continuity and innovation in the Tamil diaspora|publisher=University of South Carolina Press|year=2006|pages=88–90|isbn=978-1-57003-647-7|oclc=255232421|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uRxAOJWnyEwC&q=Sivakasi+riots%2C+1899&pg=PA89|access-date=2009-11-08}}</ref>

==Riots==
At the end of 1895, the Nadars of Sivakasi submitted a petition to the President of the Devasthanam so that a Nadar can get a footing in the management of a local Siva temple. The petition was declined by the committee. In the following years, a series of confrontations brought the Nadars against almost all the communities of Sivakasi. On 26 April 1899, a riot broke out in Sivakasi and the Maravar portion of the town was left almost completely destroyed. This event served as a precursor to the infamous Sivakasi riots. On 6th, June 1899, a group of 5,000 Maravars gathered into a mob from all parts of the surrounding villages and towns. During the night before the attack, the Nadars felled trees onto the roads which led to the town and constructed barricades leaving a few places open to draw the attackers together. The Maravars were opposed by about 1500 Nadars. The attack lasted for nearly two hours. The Maravars were sent into retreat, carrying their dead in the dozen carts brought to haul away the loot. Eight hundred and eighty-six Nadar houses were burnt. A total of 21 people were known dead. The Maravar retaliated by attacking the Nadars scattered around Sivakasi leaving 3 Nadars dead. Eventually, the riots came to an end after the intervention of the military{{Which?|date=November 2010}} in mid-July 1899.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=114–118| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>
==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
* [https://openlibrary.org/b/OL2695184M/Temple_entry_movement_and_the_Sivakasi_riots Temple entry movement and the Sivakasi riots, B. Sobhanan]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sivakasi Riots Of 1899}}
[[Category:1899 riots]]
[[Category:Riots and civil disorder in India]]
[[Category:Ethnic riots]]
[[Category:Social history of Tamil Nadu]]
[[Category:1899 in India]]
[[Category:June 1899 events]]

User talk:Bishonen

2021-05-31T04:28:59Z

Mayan302: /* Sivakasi Riots article bothered by a sock? */

{{bots|deny=all}}
<div style="width:67px;height:200px;position:fixed;top:calc(100% - 216px);left:16px;z-index:9999;">[[File:Platinum goddess.png|67px|Platinum Goddess of Wikipedia. Cold and hard, but also beautiful and priceless. |link=https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bishonen&diff=846169745&oldid=846091174&diffmode=source]]</div>

<div style="width:400px; margin:0 auto; text-align:center; font-size:110%; font-family:Georgia, Times, 'Times New Roman', serif;">
[[File:WMCON18 by Rehman - Sunday - Tour (9).jpg|thumb|300px|centre]]
This user misses Doug Taylor.</div>

== Enabling bullying ==

By unblocking User:EEng you are effectively saying that certain people can do whatever they want on wikipedia, harrass and bully anyone they want as long as they are popular enough and "it's only a joke". Admins are meant to stop this behaviour not to encourage it. Please consider your position.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 13:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::Whatever else one might say, my post at issue was completely serious, and presented as such, so your idea that there's an {{tq|only a joke}} defense in play shows you have not the slightest understanding of what's going on in this controversy. [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 02:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
:::{{yo|EEng}} Yes, {{u|Nigel Ish}} seems to associate you with the "it's only a joke" defense—which does not apply here—but perhaps you should reflect on why that might be. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 12:36, 29 March 2021 (UTC) (''EEng's self-appointed personal scold.'')
*Welp, if the purpose of the block was to stop disruption, it failed in that purpose. --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 14:37, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*:And that's because people like you support disruption as long as it's from one of the favoured few. If a normal editor acted like EEng then they would be told to stop and if they persisted would be very quickly permablocked with no way back, but as long as you've got admins who've got your back you can do anything. Wikipedia cannot pretend to take harassment seriously while this "one rule for them and another for us" continues.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 15:02, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*:::And if you think your characterization of DFO has even the slightest validity, then you ''really'' have not the slightest understanding of what's going on. DFO absolutely ''hates my guts''.{{fbdb}} [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 02:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*::::{{yo|EEng}} Now, now. None of that. I absolutely hate when you add '''content''' that is insulting/belittling/so insensitive of feelings that it is indistinguishable from cruelty. all kidding aside --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 10:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*:::::Together we've beautifully illustrated the distinction between criticizing the edit, not the editor{{snd}}the comment, not the commentor{{refn|Made-up word}}{{snd}}which is indeed the at the heart of all this. Look, when the tenth person in a row showed up to seriously propose that the article read ...
*::::::{{tq|Keiynan Lonsdale is a Nigerian-Australian actor, dancer, and singer-songwriter known for roles in The ''Divergent Series: Insurgent'' (2015), ''The Finest Hours'' (2016), and ''Love, Simon'' (2018). '''Tree''' has also worked as an MTV VJ, and released original music recordings.{{pb}}Lonsdale got his first acting job in 2007, with a bit dancing part in the film ''Razzle Dazzle: A Journey into Dance''. The following year, '''tree''' appeared in an episode of the Australian television medical drama ''All Saints''. '''Tree''' released a single on iTunes titled "One and Only" in 2014. '''Tree''' then played a supporting role as Uriah Pedrad in The Divergent Series: Insurgent (2015), the second film in the series. '''Tree''' briefly reprised the role in The Divergent Series: Allegiant (2016). In 2016, his single "Higher" was included on Connor Franta's curated album Common Culture, volume 5. '''Tree''' next appeared in the historical drama The Finest Hours (2016) as Eldon Hanon, the youngest sailor involved in a rescue at sea. In 2015, '''tree''' auditioned for the role of Jefferson Jackson but this role was given to Franz Drameh.{{pb}}'''Tree''' identifies as queer and prefers not to label '''treeself''' to a specific sexuality.}}
*:::::... I'll admit I went a ''teench'' overboard. But still it's the concept, not the concept-or. all kidding aside [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 14:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*:::::::Yes, at least a "teench", but thanks for admitting at least that (a little more of that would go a long way). But it's the "overboard" thing that people will take notice of, not the other. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 14:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*::::::::Well you must admit that {{tq|'''Tree''' identifies as queer and prefers not to label '''treeself''' to a specific sexuality}} qualifies as overboard as well, so my reaction can't be called entirely disproportionate. Being labeled transphobic didn't have much of a calming effect either. Ya know, if GW had simply said, "To be clear, you're criticizing the idea of using ''tree'' in the article, not your fellow editors, right?", I'm sure I would have said, "Well, I did let myself vent a bit there, and I know I need to keep in mind that not everyone understands why we can't incorporate an avant-garde wording like ''tree'' into an article", and that would have been the end of it. But no, she had to go all ex-arbitrator authoritarian on me.{{pb}}Remember that her original justification for removal was NOTFORUM, which was ''clearly'' inapplicable{{snd}}whether you like the form of expression or not, my post directly addressed the wording of the article. The later shifts in rationale (BPL? No? OK then, how about NPA?) make it clear that the starting point was a visceral dislike, and the reasoning was ginned up later. [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 15:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*:::::::::I agree with most of that, (however I will AGF about other peoples' motives), and in particular I agree that given such provocation your emotional response was understandable, but the fact remains that ... two wrongs don't make a right. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 16:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
*::{{yo|Nigel Ish}} I realize you are angry, and that was a heated utterance. However, it's 1) a personal attack, and 2) quite unfounded. At no time did I say the block was wrong or that he should be unblocked. In fact, I said that his conduct is becoming increasingly inappropriate and that he needs to stop. Thanks, sorry bish1 --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 15:27, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*::Hi, [[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]]. I understand your point. But I assessed the consensus of the ANI discussion and found it to be obviously in favor of an unblock. When an admin finds an obvious consensus, I think their appropriate action is to implement that consensus. That's my position. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 15:35, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
*::(multiple e/c's, i expect this post is less useful now) It's a constant source of bemusement to me that people otherwise so enamored with the idea of civility can say, repeatedly and with a straight face, things like "people like you '''support disruption''' as long as it's from one of the favoured few" (emphasis mine). That kind of vilification of other people's motives is an exact replication of the tactic "Democrats want to destroy America". It is much worse, much less civil, much more damaging, than rudely saying someone is being dumb. In a way I guess it's understandable; people are emotional. I'm certainly not proposing some kind of action. I'm sure Bish certainly expected incivility from people when she unblocked. But the logical dissonance is kind of jarring. Perhaps Nigel Ish would like to rephrase, and comment on the cost or benefit of actions, not your motives. Or maybe they wouldn't. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 15:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*::: Fundamentally there seems to be a refusal to admit to responsibility for admin actions - If you use admin powers either by blocking or unblocking then you personally must take responsibility for your actions (rather than hiding behind "it was consensus that forced you to unblock". Bishonen's actions, by unblocking EEng, supports the toxic culture on Wikipedia when the mocking and abuse of real people is applauded so long as it is from the right people and is considered amusing by those with power and influence, just as those who carry out the toxic actions or applaud from the wings. But as it is clear from User:Deepfriedokra and User:Floquenbeam comments that criticism of your actions will not be tolerated and is considered a personal attack, I will not comment here again.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 16:04, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*::::Oh come on. The responsibility of an admin, in this situation, is to judge consensus, and act on it. You may certainly disagree with their judgement concerning consensus, but you can't expect them to be responsible for, or agree with, or defend that consensus. And for an admin to see a clear consensus to unblock and not do so because they disagree with the consensus, is for that admin to substitute their judgement for that of the community. Something we don't generally want. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 16:38, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*Righteous unblock Bish. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the sycamore.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']]_
*Glad to see this unblock, Bish. Not so much for EEng's sake, but for everyone's. I obviously think the block was incorrect, but was willing to defer to consensus if it had been in favor of keeping the block. But I think it was really important that there be no precedent established that an admin can demand an overwhelming consensus to overturn one of his blocks or else he'll go to ArbCom. In this case, we were lucky there was a consensus to unblock, and that claim could be challenged. If there had been no such consensus, I worry that HJ's rhetoric would have appeared to have been sustained, and next time another admin would try to make the same demand. I should have guessed you weren't afraid of ArbCom. (maybe relished the prospect? just a little? :)... ) --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 15:43, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::I'm willing to admit that HJ's threat gave ''me'' pause. But, of course, Bish has bigger cojones than me. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|☎]] 18:38, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
:::And just imagine how big Bishzilla's are! --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 18:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::::Given that the broader context here is gender identity I think y'all better cool it. [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 02:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
:::Bish has reversed two blocks on mine that required a large amount of chutzpah. I have no hard feelings or the slightest desire to run to the parents, but guts is not a trait Bish lack -- [[User:Guerillero|Guerillero]] [[User_talk:Guerillero|Parlez Moi]] 18:46, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::::Two, [[User:Guerillero|Guerillero]]? [''Thinks. To no avail.''] I only remember the one a month ago... I typed the username at first, but perhaps we needn't actively encourage somebody less tolerant than you to start a list of "reasons to desysop Bishonen". [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:50, 27 March 2021 (UTC).

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | [[File:Admin Barnstar.png|100px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Admin's Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For making the hard decision with dignity and grace. --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 17:41, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
|}

*Thank you, young [[User:Deepfriedokra|Fritter]]! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:50, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
**It’s her birthday (well, past midnight here, anyway), and what else can one do, but [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCNM706Iv8M&t=0m33s …] —[[User:Sluzzelin|Sluzzelin]] [[User talk:Sluzzelin|talk]] 23:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
*The whole thing makes me think of Asterix village fights (with rotten fish as melee weapon).<abbr title="Smiling face" style="border-bottom: none;">[[File:Face-smile.svg|18px|link=]]</abbr> —[[User:PaleoNeonate|Paleo]][[User talk:PaleoNeonate|Neonate]] – 01:50, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
:{{yo|PaleoNeonate}} ''Mon dieu''. You've hit upon the perfect description of ANI. --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 10:42, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

* Bish - <s>You The Man!</s> I mean, <s>You The Woman!</s> I mean, [https://www.poetry.com/poem/1094/the-oak You Wikipedia's Oak Tree!] [[User:JoJo Anthrax|JoJo Anthrax]] ([[User talk:JoJo Anthrax|talk]]) 15:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

== Platinum Goddess ==

Hey Bishonen. I might have accidently copied your Platinum Goddess to my Sandbox and NL page. [[User:Slightsmile|Slight]][[User talk:Slightsmile|Smile]] 19:33, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
:That's fine, [[User:Slightsmile|Slightsmile]]. I hope it made you smile. Could you give the creator {{u|MjolnirPants}} credit in the history, please? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:37, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
::I want MPants back (yes, I'm aware I blocked him, but doesn't change that I want him back.) [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 20:40, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
:::I did a quick look through MjolnirPants talk page. “We love you but you're outta here and please come back because we love you so much”. I'm not sure what you mean “give credit in the history” but if you show me I'll do it. [[User:Slightsmile|Slight]][[User talk:Slightsmile|Smile]] 21:23, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::::Just mention him in the edit summaries. I realize you have already added the goddess to those two pages and published edit summaries for the additions, but you could perhaps add [[Help:dummy edit|dummy edit]]s, so as to be able to say "btw the Platinum Goddess is the work of [[User:MjolnirPants]]" or similar in the new edit summaries? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:36, 27 March 2021 (UTC).
:::::I miss him too, and I took the liberty of linking to here on his talk: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMjolnirPants&type=revision&diff=1014579859&oldid=995953239]. Just so you all know. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:31, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::There is another one that I miss a great deal. There is getting to be too many of them. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the sycamore.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 21:06, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, indeed, [[User:Roxy the dog|Roxy]]. These people work so hard, and then burn out, I think. (Not me, I'm lazy.) I miss [[User:MrX|MrX]]. And [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]]... though Andy is editing again. Fingers crossed he's seriously back, and pacing himself better. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC).
::::::::I hadn't even realized that MrX had stopped editing. ''sigh'' --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 00:33, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Meh. Guy was kind of a douche, if you ask me. [[User:MPants at work|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MPants at work|Tell me all about it.]] 22:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:Is that you, [[User:MPants at work|Hammerpants]]? I see you got unblocked. Good stuff, but Guy who? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 22:17, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
::MjolnirPants, of course. Heard he got indeffed and everything. [[User:MPants at work|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MPants at work|Tell me all about it.]] 22:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:::Oh, that guy. Sorry, we have all these highly active Guys. Don't talk like that about MjolnirPants, he of the Platinum Goddess! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 22:24, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
::::He don't scare me. Bet I could take him in a fight. [[User:MPants at work|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MPants at work|Tell me all about it.]] 22:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:::::The little at-work user obviously don't realize MjolnirPants protected by powerful benefactress Bishzilla! If little MjolnirPants has split personality disorder, so does Bishonen, don't forget. More better personalities! [[User:Bishzilla|''bishzilla'']] [[User talk:Bishzilla|ROARR!!]] [[User:Bishzilla/Self-requested pocketings|pocket]] 22:47, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
::::::On that note, good night. Why people insist on working in the middle of the night is beyond me! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 22:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
:::::::Who is this guy? -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the grumpy dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 23:08, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Some douche I could beat up, but won't, because I don't like the idea of being eaten. [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 23:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

== March flowers ==
{{User QAIbox
| image = Daisies, Rüdesheim.jpg
| image_upright = 0.8
}}
Thank you for missing. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 19:15, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

== Koli socks ==

Hello, Bishonen. This is regarding a highly disruptive sock master who has spammed this project with unreliable/fake [[Koli people|Koli]]-related claims over the last few years. {{u|Sitush}} used to take care of the mess created by him. But he is editing using a mobile which is in itself a challenging task. You have also blocked him at least once: [[User talk:Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala#You have been topic banned from caste-related pages]]. His numerous socks have again created many Koli-related articles, which are either unreliably sourced or contain made-up claims. His articles are practically always about nonnotable or made-up Koli-related stuff, which at best gets passing mention in reliable sources. Today {{u|Oshwah}} has blocked his 30-odd sockpuppets: [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Thakor_Sumant_Sinhji_Jhala/Archive#28_March_2021]]. Can you or any other admin nuke the mess created by him?

Also, he edits as an IP hopper in a highly disruptive way. I don't know anything about IP ranges, but the first 8 digits of the IP hopper's range always looks like "2401:4900:", e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juna_Padar&diff=977517761&oldid=977491966], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juna_Padar&diff=981467171&oldid=981455812], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juna_Padar&diff=1002868880&oldid=1002858640], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ambliara_State&diff=893118712&oldid=893104191], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ambliara_State&diff=966609988&oldid=961544673], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Koli_states_and_clans&diff=1004636310&oldid=1004617058], etc. So, is there a way to block this IP hopper?

Finally, [[Udham Singh]] has been continuously disrupted by all sort of POV pushers. And the above Koli sockmaster has also jumped on the bandwagon – see [[Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_71#Udham_Singh|here for more details]]. Even a very experienced admin ({{u|Utcursch}}) has wasted a lot of time in reverting his made-up/unreliable details. So the page needs to be semi-protected for a long time. Thanks. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 19:56, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

:{{u|NitinMlk}}, yes, indeed we miss Sitush. Taken as a general problem, this is above my pay grade. I'm going to ping {{ping|SpacemanSpiff|RegentsPark|Abecedare|Vanamonde93}}. Wow, that's a lot of socks flushed at the SPI. Unfortunately it's quicker and easier to create them than to report and block. :-( Therefore, I've no doubt [[Udham Singh]] needs semi. I've given it a year. But as for cleaning up the other messes this villain has created... no. Sorry. I'm not up for that, it's too much and too difficult.

:As for the IP range, I thought for a moment you were saying the first four ''groups'' of digits were always the same — that would have been great, and I could have blocked very easily! But of course I was misreading, and it's far from easy. I'm just going to bed now, but tomorrow I'll do my best with the 6 IPs you link to, meaning I'll block the 6 relevant /64 ranges for a month or two. (I understand you don't do IP ranges, NitinMlk, but this information may be useful for my talkpage stalkers. Er, {{u|Johnuniq}}? Do you think that would be a relevant action?) [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:29, 29 March 2021 (UTC).
::I looked at the six IPs. There is not much value from the edits on the large [[Special:Contributions/2401:4900::/33|2401:4900::/33]] range that covers all six. However, it would be a bit courageous to block it for any significant period. There is nothing that can be done at the moment with the six /64 ranges covering the individual IPs because they are either currently blocked or haven't edited for a long time (October 2020). [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 02:52, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
:::OK, thanks very much, [[User:Johnuniq|John]]. That means there's nothing I can do wrt the IPs, [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]], other than protect articles. Do you have any others besides [[Udham Singh]] to suggest for semi? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:58, 30 March 2021 (UTC).
::::This sock master targets a large number of articles, but his most targeted one is the [[Koli people]] article. Luckily, it survived this time because it was given 'extended confirmed' protection last year: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koli_people&diff=953136755&oldid=953136500]. But the protection will end next month and his socks will again mangle the article completely. <s>So the page needs 'extended confirmed' protection for an indefinite time.</s> Also, I might request you in the coming days to protect [[List of Brahmin dynasties and states]], as the page is continuously disrupted by a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Doremon9087 different sock master]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ar1a1yan this one] is the latest suspected sock of [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Doremon9087|that sock master]]. But I will have to file an SPI first. Thanks. - <s>[[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 19:24, 30 March 2021 (UTC)</s> [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 20:35, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

== Danny Mann ==

I heard that Danny Mann just got deleted from Wikipedia, and I wanna bring him back onto this wiki were he absolutely deserves.
:Hi, {{u|Alexkrzywicki1}}. The article [[Danny Mann]] was deleted in June 2020 after a deletion discussion [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Danny Mann| here]]. The subject was not considered to fulfill Wikipedia's criteria for notability, please see [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)]]. I see you have written the exact same note to four different admins. Please don't do that, as it wastes admin time. We're volunteers like you. Stick to one person. Note, you can sign your posts by typing four tildes <nowiki>( ~~~~ )</nowiki>, which will turn into a signature + timestamp when you publish. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC).
*God! Isn’t life boring, that I’m now reduced to reading comments about people that no ones heard of. If I knew who he was, I’d write him a page. I wonder if I’m the only person stuck in a freezing cold England and climbing up the wall with boredom. The snow has ruined my magnolias and I’ve been banned from touching a paint brush (the decorating type) I’m sick of the two pages I have I user-space. Can’t even go to the pub, not that did anyway, but it was nice to know I could if I wanted to. Too early in the day for a drink, there has to be more to life than this. I think I’ll go and research Danny Mann, who know he might own a Palladian pile somewhere which would make him notable. [[User:Giano|Giano]] [[User talk:Giano|'''(talk)''']] 10:15, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
:*[https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Mann Oh Look!] He’s terribly famous, even more credits than Meghan Markle. Admittedly, he hasn’t tried to bring down the British monarchy by not knowing his own wedding anniversary or understand letters patent, but he’s acted about here and there, we have all sorts of odd people who’ve done that. I would copy paste it all in, but I expect there’ll be some rule about it, and I am very law abiding. [[User:Giano|Giano]] [[User talk:Giano|'''(talk)''']] 10:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
K::*Review [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Danny Mann]] first because a recreated article would be speedily deleted unless it had significant differences from the original, particularly regarding what sources showed notability. That is, if no new sources are available other than those mentioned in the AfD, Danny Mann will have to remain at Simple Wikipedia. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:34, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
:::*Obviously a far more simple project than this, although I can’t believe its arbs are any more simple than ours. [[User:Giano|Giano]] [[User talk:Giano|'''(talk)''']] 10:41, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

== 100% canvassing ==

[[Talk:Midsommar_(film)#Requested_move_8_April_2021]] If you can think of an ''actual'' argument for '''oppose''', please join. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 14:28, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
:Hello there, mr [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Fröding]]. No.. not really. Not sure I can make myself care what the article is called... but the film sounds great. I love the fateful pissing on the ancestral tree and the [[ättestupa]]. The man "wearing Mark's clothes and skinned face" ''might'' be [[Plagiarism|influenced]] by [[Men in Black (1997 film)|''Men in Black'']], I suppose? Still, it's a nice touch. PS, I didn't know you had [https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A5bergss%C3%A5ng your own article] on sv wiki! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:56, 10 April 2021 (UTC).
:: It's a poem that's really easy to learn by heart. Oh well, when little Estelle innocently types "Midsommar" into en-WP, that'll be what she finds. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 17:48, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

== Check Yadav page ==

Hi, first of all, nice to see u after a long time. I am just very busy, so instead of filing [[WP:ARE]] and involving there I am contacting you. {{noping|Shital V Yadav}}, a new user is at disruptive mode on [[Yadav]] related pages. I believe him of being a sockpuppet of another blocked user. But since lot of warnings have been given, it is enough to take action against the vandal who also have [[WP:CIR]] issue as he is removing image from the article.[[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 18:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
::Oh! and now he is reverting all my recent edits on various pages. Totally disruptive.At [[Politics of Bihar]] and many others. It will take a lot of time to undo all of these reverts. If any stalker who is also an admin is here, take appropriate actions on {{U|Shital V Yadav}}[[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 18:49, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
:::please see this case too, [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Vipinahir]]. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 21:01, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

* Mr. Heba Aisha I'm asking why are you not providing valid references for both images on [[Yadav]] page ?? if you add both images with references then I'll never make any changes but you are simply reverted my edit , I checked so many times after that removed the both images.
::::Hi, [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]]. I see the SPI resolved the matter while I slept. The best kind of resolution. Is there anything else that needs reverting? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:18, 11 April 2021 (UTC).
{{Od}}
Yes, its resolved, I m nominating various stubs created by the banned user for delition under G5 criteria.All of them are related to politicians of Yadav caste. If I found someone notable enough, I will create article in future. But at present, I don't think its good to keep them. Btw thanks for responding. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 10:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

== Yadav caste related pages are new hotspots ==

This is very difficult for people like me to verify edits of the users who are here for promoting their own caste and end up distorting historical articles for [[Sanskritisation|upward mobilisation]] on Wikipedia. It becomes more difficult when I found myself alone editing the articles related to some particular topic using quality sources neutrally. {{noping|Sitush}} and others who were doing this are not active now and I would like to tell you that just like we faced the problems in [[Rajput]] related pages few months ago. This time [[Yadav]] caste related pages are new hotspots. Please keep a tab on my talk page and the pages I visit as these users have distorted large number of pages in very short period of time. Thank You.[[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 20:01, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
:Look at this too [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kroshta]]. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 20:03, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
::Sorry, [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba]], I don't have that kind of time. I'm pretty busy in real life. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:55, 12 April 2021 (UTC).

== IP address being blocked ==

How does a IP address gets blocked especially when one didn't do anything wrong. [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 22:44, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]]. That can happen if an admin blocks an [[WP:Rangeblock|IP range]] that there's a lot of vandalism from. Then there may be "collateral damage", meaning innocent IPs are also caught up in the block, though admins try to avoid this. Also, an account can have their IP address blocked if that IP was recently used by a blocked user, known as an [[WP:autoblock|autoblock]] (follow the link to see how to fix this). Have you had any IP block problem yourself? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC).
::Yes, I have. can I get on trouble for having the IP address blocked? [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 00:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:::No, I'm sure you won't get in trouble, [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]]. As I said, it usually happens because somebody else did vandalism. What happened? What kind of message did you get? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC).

::::My IP address was blocked. Not sure how someone gets on my IP address. [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 14:59, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

::::How does someone else use my IP address? [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 02:27, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

:::::Unless your IP address is static, it'll get re-assigned to other people sometimes. {{u|Johnuniq}}, could you advise Cwater1, please? I'm not very good at this. {{u|Cwater1}}, please tell us what kind of message you got when your IP address was blocked. It'll help us to help you. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 09:01, 26 April 2021 (UTC).
::::::I replied at [[User talk:Cwater1#IP address]] and I think further discussion should occur there. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 09:59, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks very much, [[User:Johnuniq|John]]. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:48, 26 April 2021 (UTC).

== Please do not add troll comments like this one to my talk page ==

"Vapourmile, it seems to me you are confusing Guy Macon with Emmanuel Macron. Some people can be offended when you persistently get their names wrong, so please try not to. Bishonen | tålk 16:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)."

[[User:Vapourmile|Vapourmile]] ([[User talk:Vapourmile|talk]]) 16:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

:@Bishonen: I've mentioned you at ANI in the context of Vapoumile's Official Complaint about Guy. '''[[User:Acroterion|Acroterion]] [[User talk:Acroterion|(talk)]]''' 16:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
::Thank you, [[User:Acroterion|Acroterion]]. The [[:File:Gojira 1954 poster 3.jpg|Gojira 1954 poster]] is pretty cool, isn't it? Don't post here again, Vapourmile. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC).
:::I gotta love that poster, not least because it's two years older than I am. The facial expressions on the two people at the lower left are intriguing. Neither looks frightened. The man looks seriously pissed off, and the women looks a bit enamored of Gojira (which probably explains the man's expression). --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
:::Researching further (as I am wont to do), I see that there is ''[[Gojirasaurus]]'', denigrated by Wikipedia as a "dubious genus". (On the other hand, I know a fair number of dubious "geniuses".) --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
::::Haha. Me and Trypto are the same age. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the grumpy dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 20:41, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
:::::You have my sympathy. (But maybe dog years and fish years are different?) --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
::::::[''Bishzilla, a truly mature lady, briskly stuffs both the young little users in her pocket.''] And stay there! Sit on sofa! [[User:Bishzilla|''bishzilla'']] [[User talk:Bishzilla|ROARR!!]] [[User:Bishzilla/Self-requested pocketings|pocket]] 20:09, 14 April 2021 (UTC).
:::::::Gimme the popcorn, Roxy! And where's the remote? --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:14, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
::I should thank Bishzilla for reminding me that I'm far from the oldest individual here (by millennia, it seems!). An interesting bit of wiki-anthropology: when I joke on {{u|EEng}}'s talk page, he tells me to get off his lawn, and when I joke here, I wind up inside a giant lizard, sitting on a sofa. So many bossy oldsters! --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:24, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

== Swedish emigration to the United States FA concerns ==

{{ping|Bishonen}} Greetings! I saw that you promoted [[Swedish emigration to the United States]] and thought I should inform you of my concerns about the 2007-nominated article. It is mainly about references; many paragraphs are either unreferenced or are supported by just one. Could you take a quick look at the article and see if it could be improved? Cheers. [[User:Wretchskull|Wretchskull]] ([[User talk:Wretchskull|talk]]) 10:24, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
:Sorry, [[User:Wretchskull|Wretchskull]]. It would entail a lot more research in an area that is no longer "hot" for me. Altogether, I'm really not crazy about trying to re-source articles I wrote once, especially when it was so long ago. If somebody wants that one to stay featured, I'm afraid they'll have to adopt it. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC).

== Welcome ==

How are you? , Just came here after seeing you active. Most of the old people which I found here are missing now, including some good admins. Hope you are enjoying the real life. COVId has striked once again in India and government has strictly enforced lockdown once again, and made us jobbers. How's the condition [[Japan|there]]. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 20:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba]]. I'm not Japanese — I'm half a world away — I just have a misleading username. See my responses [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bishonen/Archive_23#HNY! here]. We're having a nasty third wave of infections where I am, which is in Europe. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC).

== Request for protecting the article on [[Varma (surname)‎]] ==

Hi Bishonen, hope you are fine. Would request you to protect the article on Varma (surname)‎ from persistent vandalism by a particular user (or as a sock) in spite of all explanations in edit summaries as well as warnings on the user's talk page. Please help. Thanks & Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 10:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]]. I have blocked the user indefinitely from editing the article. One of the newfangled partial blocks. They can still edit the talkpage, in case they take a notion to discuss. Do you think the article still requires protection? Please let me know if further socks or IPs turn up, then I'll semiprotect. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:13, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
::Thanks Bishonen for your prompt response / action, as usual. I shall let you know in case socks turn up, and the article requires protection. Warm Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 13:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

== Pahela Baisakh Page ==

Dear Bishonen

I once again turn to you for advice.

I had previously reached out to the Administrator's Notice Board, Neill N, Soumya Biswas, Sarah Welch and Firestar 464. I haven't heard from any.

Please have a look at the Pahela Baishakh page.

There has been a controversy there since at least April 2017. This pertains to the origins of the Bengali New Year. There are two theories - Mughal and Vikramaditya/Hindu/Bikramaditto/Indic.

More recently, key information supported by citations pertaining to the latter theory were deleted. Since April 15, I tried restoring some of that information from previous versions compiled by editors like Sarah Welch (who is one of the best on Indic issues). Whenever I did so, the material I restored was reverted. I would like to desist from edit warring but felt that I needed to get my point across both in the Talk Page and by reverting the deletions.

I didn’t delete any existing material. I only restored material from before. It not material that I introduced. I only restored although I may have revised the wording used earlier.

The Pahela Baisakh page will benefit from an independent review. I did try explaining what I did on the Talk Page. I didn’t succeed. Three or four individuals, including anonymous IP numbers, who may or may not be subject matter experts were very active in reverting my efforts. I am not sure whether sockpuppetry is involved. The information I restored is called "junk", "a lie", "irrelevant" etc. I seek an independent read of what's happening. I would appreciate your advice. You would be neutral as an outsider.

This is not a complaint on any individual. Its about the page's neutrality.

Thank you

[[User:Dipendra2007|Dipendra2007]] ([[User talk:Dipendra2007|talk]]) 00:45, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

:Hi, [[User:Dipendra2007|Dipendra2007]]. I'm afraid I'm very far from a specialist in these matters, and I must decline to intervene. An IP who fails to sign on the talkpage does seem inexperienced, but on the other hand they discuss properly and there is also another user speaking against your version. Since you have already tried [[WP:AN]] and several users individually (who I do believe know more about it than I do), it's hardly for me to put my oar in. Perhaps one of my knowledgeable talkpage stalkers may have a comment for you. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 07:45, 23 April 2021 (UTC).

Ok. I hear you, Bishonen. I may intermittently, respectfully and selectively revert as the editors do not seem to be amenable. There is an element of rudeness in the comments made on my Talk Page. The material I reintroduced was from Sarah Welch's page which in my view was rigorous. cheers [[User:Dipendra2007|Dipendra2007]] ([[User talk:Dipendra2007|talk]]) 16:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

== Applying for Release to Elsewhere ==

Yes, I have read the book (and your page on self-blocking policies). I ask, however, that two customary terms be ignored:

* The prohibition from emailing others. I would like to voice concern to the ArbCom over something a certain functionary did (not you).
* The waiting period. I have asked for Release from [[User:TonyBallioni]] a day ago.

Let this be as long as you would like to grant (other passing admins could assign anything up to indefinite), and take note of my "will" at my user page. --[[User:NotReallySoroka|NotReallySoroka]] ([[User Talk:NotReallySoroka|talk]]) (formerly DePlume) 15:56, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
:Noting here, {{u|NotReallySoroka}}, that if you go to [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee]], the committee's email address is published. The block that would be applied by Bishonen would prevent you from using the "Email this user" link, but nothing prevents anyone from emailing the Arbcom directly. However, if you are going to pursue something along this line, I would suggest that you hold off on being blocked until that matter is resolved, as you are not truly disengaging if you are bringing a matter to arbcom attention. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 18:00, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
::Thank you, {{U|Risker}}. It is a relatively minor matter that does not involve myself, so it can go. --[[User:NotReallySoroka|NotReallySoroka]] ([[User Talk:NotReallySoroka|talk]]) (formerly DePlume) 18:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
:::Hi, {{u|NotReallySoroka}}. I've read the request you wrote to Tony Ballioni, before you removed it, and the insight it gives me into your motives for this request worries me. I don't like the connection with a particular Miscellany for deletion, and I don't understand why you changed from Tony to me. Also, I especially don't like your intention to keep worrying at wikimatters, which you describe above ("I would like to voice concern to the ArbCom over something a certain functionary did"). Altogether, I don't want to do this, sorry. There's too much baggage with it. As you have seen, since you have read my [[User:Bishonen/Self-requested blocks|conditions page]], I will decline these things at my discretion, and that's what I'm doing now. I wrote this before I saw Risker's comment and your reply to her, but I'm afraid those don't change my mind. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC).
::::Hello. Your point with the MfD is a rightful worry, indeed, though as of now it is not the only now. I deleted the request to Tony so as to think twice, but now my mind is set. I found you because you are still activity.
::::As for the wikimatters, it does not involve me and I can just talk it out with the fuctionaries involved.
::::[[User:NotReallySoroka|NotReallySoroka]] ([[User Talk:NotReallySoroka|talk]]) (formerly DePlume) 19:44, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

== In relation to the debate over the article about climate change ==

== Deletion review for [[:List of scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming]] ==
An editor has asked for a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review#List of scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming|deletion review]] of [[:List of scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming]]. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. [[User:Epimonide|Epimonide]] ([[User talk:Epimonide|talk]]) 13:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
:Thank you, [[User:Epimonide|Epimonide]]. Is this your first account? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 16:32, 24 April 2021 (UTC).
::Just, y'know, wondering. [[User:EEng#s|E]][[User talk:EEng#s|Eng]] 18:27, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
: For future reference {{u|Epimonide}}, the [[WP:CON|consensus]] at the [[WP:AFD|discussion]] (see: [[WP:PROD]]) is not the same as "speedy" (see [[WP:CSD]]). And "Just, y'know" cause 2 of the first three edits are at [[WP:DRV]]. Not the usual entry point for a new editor. So I agree, it's not unusual to "wonder". IJS. [[User:Ched|— Ched]] ([[User talk:Ched|talk]]) 18:38, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I do not know, nor do I understand what all this means, so I will just answer Bishonen. No, this is my second account; I do not remember the credentials to my first account. Well wishes, [[User:Epimonide|Epimonide]] ([[User talk:Epimonide|talk]]) 19:26, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

== RE: Warning ==
{{further|User talk:Tryptofish#Tot}}
You block me?, I not do nothing. That behaviour needs to be checked. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. --[[User:Pedro158|Pedro158]] ([[User talk:Pedro158|talk]]) 21:31, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
:No, I haven't blocked you. Get a grip, and don't put nonsense on my page again. Thank you, {{u|Tryptofish}}. This comment may stay, but I ask my tp stalkers to remove any additions from the same user. I'm going to bed. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:48, 29 April 2021 (UTC).
:Never mind, little stalkers, I see {{u|Ched}} just indeffed the user. Well, I guess they weren't a very hopeful case. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 21:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC).
:: I couldn't find anything productive in history, and I seriously doubt there would have been anything positive in the future. If any of the adminy types that {{tpw}} your page think I'm wrong - I won't contest an unblock. The "I am make moar better edits" stuff just doesn't play anymore for me however. [[User:Ched|— Ched]] ([[User talk:Ched|talk]]) 22:03, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

== Happy Walpurgis! ==
[[File:Bonefire at skansen on walpurgis night.jpg|thumb| More Valborgsmässoafton fires!]]
No public celebrations this year either, but at least it is sunny (and not snowing!). There will be some serious herring in the Bonadea household this afternoon. I hope your Valborg eve is enjoyable, whether you celebrate it or not. [https://sverigesradio.se/avsnitt/1712901] --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' [[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]] 08:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
:Dammit. Missed schmutziger donnerstag again. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the grumpy dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 10:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
:No [[:sv:Majbrasa|Majbrasa]] this year! Sad! {{u|Roxy the dog}}, you can always keep your powder dry for the [[Oktoberfest]] ("beer festival and travelling funfair"). [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:09, 30 April 2021 (UTC).
::Many years ago, I spent a week drunk, dressed as a Monk in Munchen during Oktoberfest. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the grumpy dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''wooF''']] 11:37, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

== Sock ==

Hey Bish, {{Vandal|KażdenIPmożeWlKlNGERbyć iskajcieSEsami}} is a sock of Wikinger, please revoke email access and restore the autoblock you accidentally removed while revoking TPA. Thanks! ''[[User:JavaHurricane| Java]][[User talk:JavaHurricane|Hurricane]]'' 12:35, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
:Thanks, [[User:JavaHurricane|JavaH]], done. Little talkpage stalkers: a global lock would be good also, or at least on Commons, if anybody with those tools reads this. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 12:44, 1 May 2021 (UTC).
::Requested and received. :) [[User:Blablubbs|Blablubbs]]|[[User talk:Blablubbs|talk]] 13:31, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Thank you, [[User:Blablubbs|Blablubbs|]] and [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]]. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:01, 1 May 2021 (UTC).
:::: Sure, no problem. I had your Commons page on my watchlist, and this is why I was able to act quickly. In other cases, you can just ping me.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 19:06, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

== Commons ==

Just saw this [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Plush.rhino.bearing.gifts.jpeg deletion request]. You might consider uploading it to en.WP per [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline]]. Unfortunately, Commons doesn't allow non-free uploads, and since toys are copyright protected, the image will be deleted. [[User:Atsme|Atsme]] [[User talk:Atsme|💬]] [[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 13:29, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
:Thank you, [[User:Atsme|Atsme]], but I wanted it for a particular purpose, which it has long since served, so I guess I don't really mind if it's deleted. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 18:59, 1 May 2021 (UTC).

== Personal attack in edit summary by POV pushers ==

Hi Bishonen.. Hope you are fine. Sorry to bother you, but can something be done about the personal attacks in Edit Summaries by IP editors in the article on [[Baidya]], one on the revision dated 30th April and another again in the recent one yesterday! Please help, if you can. Thanks & Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 13:40, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
:Sure, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]]. Fortunately the IPs both belong to the same /64 range, so I could easily block them (and all their brothers and sisters) from the article with a long [[WP:partial block|partial block]], 3 months. I've [[WP:REVDEL|revision deleted]] the edit summaries. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 18:14, 4 May 2021 (UTC).
::Thank you so much, Bishonen! Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 05:10, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

== Stonkaments ==

I hate to be a pest, but could you instruct {{User|Stonkaments}} to stop commenting on my talk page? I told him to stop a few weeks ago, and I just undid the fourth unwanted comment they've made since then. Their [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=prev&oldid=1020571510&diffmode=source second] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=next&oldid=1020571510&diffmode=source third] edits there were pure trolling; posting a D/S notice immediately after me and Trypotofish were [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=1020570710&oldid=1020569422&diffmode=source discussing] the fact that the page is under D/S. Note that this happened less than [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=1020545115&oldid=1020544364 3 hours] after I reiterated that I didn't want them commenting on my talk page, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=1020411694&oldid=1020410787&diffmode=source less than a day] after I'd first told them not to comment on my talk page. There's no doubt Stonk is well aware of my wishes, and our community norms here, since they've been asked to stop commenting on others' talk pages.

Their [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MjolnirPants&diff=1021954709&oldid=1021944807&diffmode=source latest comment] is a transparent attempt to disrupt efforts to put together an FAQ for the page, where they're currently engaged in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Race_and_intelligence&diff=prev&oldid=1021964001&diffmode=source throwing shade] all around, after [[User talk:DGG#RfC/Arbitration on R&I|already being told]] by the most sympathetic admin to their cause to drop the stick and step away. [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 18:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:I was trying to help improve the proposed FAQ, not disrupt it. I forgot that I was asked not to comment on their talk page―I apologize, it won't happen again. [[User:Stonkaments|Stonkaments]] ([[User talk:Stonkaments|talk]]) 18:30, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
::I'm a bit surprised that Stonkaments would have forgotten that, but we can AGF, I suppose. I'd encourage one of those fancy new kinds of single-page blocks, that just blocks posting to MPants' talk pages, along with a formal warning.
::@MPants: when you reverted the comment, you used a vulgar edit summary. Given past history of how that has been wikilawyered, please don't do that any more. And don't anyone else get any ideas from what I just said. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 18:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Tryp, you know I respect your views on most matters a great deal, but you're ''really'' not helping here. [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 18:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Thank you for your input. Out of curiosity, wouldn't AGF call for a warning before a block? I ask because I would appreciate the opportunity to demonstrate good faith and show that it was a genuine mistake due to forgetfulness. As way of explanation: due to my (over-)involvement in the R&I discussion recently, I have been on the receiving end of a lot of hostility, and I genuinely confused MPants with another editor who has directed hostility my way[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Race_and_intelligence&diff=prev&oldid=1020039298]. [[User:Stonkaments|Stonkaments]] ([[User talk:Stonkaments|talk]]) 18:53, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
::::Since I'm ''really'' not helping here, I'm being a bit, shall we say, nuanced, when I refer to AGF. In other words, I don't really believe for a minute that you forgot, but I also don't think it's worth arguing about. And I think that if you get a talk-page partial block, you should consider yourself fortunate. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 18:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::I will by no means block an editor to reinforce a promise they make above ("I apologize, it won't happen again"). Just don't forget again, {{u|Stonkaments}}. Nor will I reproach {{u|MjolnirPants}} for using a salty expression when reverting a post from somebody they ''had'', after all, already told they weren't welcome. OK. Everybody happy, I hope. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:14, 7 May 2021 (UTC).
::::::That's all I asked for. Thanks, Bish. [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 19:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::::Since I seem to be in the position of clarifying, I never asked Bish to do anything with respect to the salt, or the pepper, of the edit summary. As Bish correctly understands, there should be nothing wrong with that. But some admins, who should know better, think that they have to be civility enforcers, and I'm trying to get MPants to understand that he can fall into a trap with that. It does him no favors to pretend otherwise. Let's not repeat history. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Tryp, I've literally acknowledged your point twice at your talk. Ever heard the expression "don't sell past the close"? [[User:MjolnirPants|'''ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants''']] [[User_talk:MjolnirPants|Tell me all about it.]] 19:43, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::I was responding to Bish, not to you, now let's drop this. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::{{facepalm}} I directed a comment at MPants, and Bishonen responded as though I had directed it at her, so I responded to Bishonen and MPants acted like I had directed it at him. Sheesh! ''Now'' let's drop this. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:57, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
==Happy Adminship Anniversary!==

<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color:#E6E6FA; border: 1px solid #7D00B3; margin: 0.5em auto; padding: 0.5em; width:90%; text-align: center">[[File:Icon tools.svg|50px|left]]Happy Adminship Anniversary![[File:Nuvola apps date.svg|50px|right]]
Have a very [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=rights&page=User%3ABishonen happy adminship anniversary] on your special day!

Best wishes, [[User:CAPTAIN RAJU|'''CAPTAIN RAJU''']][[User_talk:CAPTAIN RAJU|(T)]] 12:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
</div>

*Right. Thank you. I'm old, don't remind me. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 12:33, 8 May 2021 (UTC).

== Sarah.Xenos ==

Just an FYI, {{u|Sarah.Xenos}} finally returned to editing on 5 May, still making basic errors. --[[User:AussieLegend|'''AussieLegend''']] ([[User talk:AussieLegend#top|<big>✉</big>]]) 17:46, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
:Yees. Thanks, [[User:AussieLegend|AussieLegend]]. I'm not ignoring this, but I'll hang fire for a bit, and watch. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC).
::[[User:AussieLegend|AussieLegend]], I've had enough of the user's continued errors and their unresponsiveness; I've blocked them indefinitely, again with a nice block notice both on their page and in the log. We shall see what happens, if anything. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 15:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC).
:::It's a shame that it had to come to this but it's for the better. Cheers. --[[User:AussieLegend|'''AussieLegend''']] ([[User talk:AussieLegend#top|<big>✉</big>]]) 02:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
::::Actually, as soon as she was indeffed, she did respond, [[User:AussieLegend|AussieLegend]], with one sentence — you can see my own reply on her page. I won't unblock without considerably more show of willingness on her side. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 10:15, 16 May 2021 (UTC).

== A beer for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Export hell seidel steiner.png|70px]]
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Many thanks for your help. Very much appreciated. [[User:Denisarona|Denisarona]] ([[User talk:Denisarona|talk]]) 09:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
|}

:Aaahh. [''Swigs deeply''.] Is it [[Oktoberfest]] already? Thanks, [[User:Denisarona|Denis]]. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 09:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC).

== A bowl of strawberries for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Erdbeerteller01.jpg|120px]]
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Going for a short break, case closed, but feeling tired of it. Keep taking on vandals. [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba Aisha]] ([[User talk:Heba Aisha|talk]]) 12:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
|}

Oh, yum. Perfectly ripe. Thank you, [[User:Heba Aisha|Heba]]. 🍰 [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC).

==Advice on probable Smurf account==

I have encountered a user using what appears to be a Smurf account and I was going to file an SPI but Twinkle does not allow a report that has only one named account (clearly I have no knowledge of the main user account). They appear as a new user and created and submitted a polished Draft within 2 minutes of arriving and are now pushing hard to get their Draft reviewed and accepted. I believe that they may well be block evading or part of a meat farm. Any advice on how I deal with this would be most welcome.
Thanks ''''' [[User:Velella|Velella]] ''''' ''[[User talk:Velella|Velella]] Talk ''  22:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Velella|Velella]]. Not all knowledgable purported newbies are socks in the negative sense. Compare the distinction between "Inappropriate uses of alternative accounts" and "Legitimate uses" in [[WP:SOCK]], and see also [[WP:CLEANSTART]]. But I'm not saying you should do nothing, if you suspect an inappropriate use of multiple accounts here. Perhaps start by giving me the account name so I can take a look? Use e-mail if you like. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 00:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC).
::PS, after taking a look at your page, I think "smurf" means an [[WP:UPE|UPE]] rather than a sock — right? If it's the account I see on your page, never mind about e-mailing, I'll take a look tomorrow. Now I'm actually officially asleep (and a bit stupid, as you can see). [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 01:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC).

:::Many thanks. You are right about the user but it is not [[WP:UPE|UPE]] as they as they did, reluctantly, make a declaration, but they also claim 4 to 5 years experience and clearly know their way round Wikipedia and seem so very intent on getting their draft approved. I find it very difficult to believe that they haven't spent some time on Wikipedia, but if so, why not use their established user name? The way they behave could easily lead to a block if they cross the line of civility and I suspect that this is what may have happened in the past and they are now block evading. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but I have no reasonable idea of how a user appears full skilled in the ways of Wikipedia otherwise? Many thanks for any light that you can throw on this case. ''''' [[User:Velella|Velella]] ''''' ''[[User talk:Velella|Velella]] Talk ''  08:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
::::[[User:Velella|Velella]], an earlier version of the article was deleted as non-notable ("Fails [[WP:NCORP]]") on 16 Feb 2021 following [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Intelligence Node|this AfD]]. That version had been created in 2016 by an SPA called {{noping|Tnodett}}. The current draft isn't very similar, not in text and not in sources, so I'd presume it's not based on the deleted article. (I suppose it also follows that TullikaInode1 isn't particularly likely to be a sock of Trodnett.) Nevertheless, if an article is deleted on notability grounds, it's not likely that the subject has amassed much notability a mere three months later. And the sourcing is just as weak for the draft as for the deleted article. If the two versions had been more similar, I could have speedied the draft, but as it is, I won't do that. However, it absolutely needs to stay in draftspace, where we can AGF that it's being improved. I'll write to the user on their page... when I get back from the Coop. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 13:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC).
:::::Many thanks for your advice and investigation. My suspicion was that the company was employing a paid editor to make an article stick where it had failed before. If this was so, then the current editor probably has a number of other articles to their name, probably all under different user names. Regards ''''' [[User:Velella|Velella]] ''''' ''[[User talk:Velella|Velella]] Talk ''  17:20, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
::::::Or else they genuinely work for the company. In any case, it's like trying to hold back the tide, isn't it? I just posted on their page. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 17:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC).
:::::::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hrN8dh50FY I'm just putting this here.] [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 16:59, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
::::::::Ahh, [[:sv:Banarne|Banarne]]. Excellent. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:55, 18 May 2021 (UTC).

== A beer for you! ==

{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Export hell seidel steiner.png|70px]]
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Many, many thanks (this will help while waiting for October!!). [[User:Denisarona|Denisarona]] ([[User talk:Denisarona|talk]]) 12:21, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
|}

== Request for assistance ==
Could I please get your help on [[Endowment_(Mormonism)]], I was about to engage in another edit war, but felt it would be counterproductive, and seek a cooler head than my own. [[User:Epachamo|Epachamo]] ([[User talk:Epachamo|talk]]) 10:37, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Epachamo|Epachamo]]. I've posted a sharp warning on the user's page. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:30, 21 May 2021 (UTC).

== Request for protecting the article on [[Baidya]] or blocking the caste warrior(s) ==

Hi Bishonen.. hope, you are fine. The article on [[Baidya]] has become a subject of edit warring by POV pushers. Once I have reviewed the content added, I found out that the editor is citing a Journal by a Baidya editor only in order to validate what the Baidyas have claimed all through, I mean Brahmin status, possibly claimed by most of the castes, as you know. Also, I have clearly explained on talk page that all the three other sources, mentioned as supporting ones by the user on the talk page itself, are Raj era sources and cannot be considered as per long-term consensus. Now, another user, Bengaliwikipro (not sure, may not be a sock) is reverting the edits without any explanation, and is now engaged in edit war in spite of explaining everything and warning the users (in the article's talk page as well as edit summaries). Please help! Thanks & Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 11:26, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]]. I have partial-blocked Bengaliwikipro from the article for six months. Hopefully, that will [[Pour encourager les autres|encourager les autres]]. Please let me know if the disruption persists. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 11:49, 23 May 2021 (UTC).
::Thank you, Bishonen. Regards, [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 13:17, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

== Please choose the discussions on my talk page ==

Hello buddy,
I request you to kindly close the ongoing discussions on my page as they are all solved.
Thanks You. [[User:EditGodGuru45|EditGodGuru45]] ([[User talk:EditGodGuru45|talk]]) 13:47, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
:It's not necessary to close discussions on user talkpages, [[User:EditGodGuru45|EditGodGuru45]]. Also, I disagree that they're "solved". Since you're here, I'll just ask you to listen better to experienced editors, rather than assume you know better. Wikipedia goes by ''reliable sources only''; not by your personal knowledge. Therefore it's quite inappropriate to be telling other editors that they don't know as much as you, or even that they "know nothing", as you said to [[User:Yamaguchi先生|Yamaguchi先生]]. If they have more Wikipedia experience, it's, on the contrary, likely that they know more about the principles for editing here. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:01, 27 May 2021 (UTC).

== Harassment ==
Sorry for the Harrasment
I will not do again -- did not see the message
regards. {{unsigned|SadirahFierg}}
:Good, thank you! Please remember to sign your posts with four tildes <nowiki>( ~~~~)</nowiki>. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 16:30, 29 May 2021 (UTC).

== 2001:8004::/34 ==

* {{userlinks|2001:8004::/34}}
Recently partially blocked. I am seeing new vandalism,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nambucca_Valley_Council&diff=prev&oldid=1025511496][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doja_Cat&diff=prev&oldid=1025519617][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bandaranaike_International_Airport&diff=prev&oldid=1025759041][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_IT_Crowd&diff=prev&oldid=1025864628][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_The_IT_Crowd_characters&diff=prev&oldid=1025863791] but also some reasonable edits, so it is likely that more that one user in in that range. Not sure what, if anything, should be done. Maybe block a smaller range? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 02:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
:[[User:Guy Macon|Guy]], you picked the most recent admin in the log, but I'm afraid that flatters me. I added a page ([[Sushi]]) to the partial block which had already been placed, but that doesn't mean I have an understanding of these big ranges. /64s, those are what I can handle. I suggest you place a call to one of the more competent admins involved, such as {{u|Favonian}}. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 08:43, 30 May 2021 (UTC).
::{{ping|Guy Macon}} Don't know about the "competent" bit, but I make up for it in bloodthirst: [[Special:Contribs/2001:8004:c40::/44|2001:8004:c40::/44]] blocked site-wide for a month. This covers most of the miscreants you reported, though not [[Special:Contribs/2001:8004:2730:97de:c1b7:ca7e:a435:2591|2001:8004:2730:97de:c1b7:ca7e:a435:2591]]. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 09:26, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
:::Hail to the [[User:Favonian|Terminator]]! [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 09:43, 30 May 2021 (UTC).
:::: Welcome home, [[User:Favonian|Favonian]]. We knew you'd be back. After all, it was programmed in you. Oh, and you executed that programming beautifully! You are an infiltration prototype. The only one of your kind. We resurrected you. Advanced Cyberdyne's work. Amended it. The human condition no longer applies to you. Accept what you already know. That you were made to serve a purpose. To achieve what no other machine has achieved before. To infiltrate, find a target and block that target from editing Wikipedia for 30 days.[https://ru.wikiquote.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80:_%D0%94%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B4%D1%91%D1%82_%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C#%D0%A1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD] --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 12:45, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
::::: Your offerings of flattery have been accepted, oh faithful minions. So far, you've only been exposed to my messages in writing. When we get full audio, my sinister, somewhere-in-Europe accent will firmly establish my connection to the Immortal Arnie. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 12:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
==Sivakasi Riots article bothered by a sock? ==
The contents of the [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]] article are being deleted by a new user called Vendsoil. Based on the way he edits, he is most probably the sock of EruTheLord. I have filed a complaint accordingly [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/EruTheLord|here]]. Please go through this issue when you find the time. Thank you.[[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 15:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hi, {{u|Mayan302}}. Thank you for creating [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/EruTheLord |the SPI]]. I'm not sure why you ask me specifically to look into it? I haven't had anything to do with EruTheLord other than a warning in August 2020. May I suggest {{u|El_C}} would be a better admin to approach if you're becoming impatient with the lack of response at the SPI? (Though I'm sure admins + CU will get to it eventually.) [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 15:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC).
::Hi Bishonen. I don't know a lot of admins. :). Thank you for your help! [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 04:28, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

== Liar ==
[[File:Cleaning brushes.jpg|thumb|200px|Multicoloured climbing brushflowers on a wall]]
Well, if you must know, it's a ''bottle brush tree''.😜 --[[User:Deepfriedokra|Deepfriedokra]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(talk)]] 15:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
:Hmmm. Would that be the [[Grevillea paradoxa]]? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 16:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC).

== Persecution of Dalits ==

Hello. How are you?

While I was away, [[Persecution of Dalits]] was redirected. The content I added was totally unalike from how it was prior 2008.

2008 Version - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persecution_of_Dalits&oldid=235205811

My version - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persecution_of_Dalits&oldid=1025630024

Now expanded more. What should I do to avoid another redirect and expand this article? [[User:Friendly Eagle|Friendly Eagle]] ([[User talk:Friendly Eagle|talk]]) 18:47, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

:Hi, [[User:Friendly Eagle|Friendly Eagle]]. You should discuss on the [[Talk:Persecution of Dalits|talkpage]] and explain why you believe it should be an article rather than a redirect. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 20:29, 30 May 2021 (UTC).

User talk:Bishonen

2021-05-30T15:12:02Z

Mayan302: Sivakasi Riots

User talk:Sitush

2021-05-29T17:36:49Z

Mayan302: /* Sivakasi Riots article bothered by a sock? */

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[[File:Keep-calm-and-click-edit.svg|thumb|right|... or panic madly and freak out?]]
[[Image:Muscovy Duck bathing.jpg|thumb|right|Have you come here to rant at me? It is water off a duck's back.]]
[[File:Peacock.jpg|thumb|[[Manspreading]]]]

== Jimmy White ==

Hi! I just wanted to commend you for taking a look at the Jimmy White article. It's been on my list for a long time, but it's in terrible shape - and I never get round to it.

I should let you know that the Snooker Scene blog is deemed RS due to it being written by David Hendon, who also writes Snooker Scene (the magazine). Not that it makes a great deal of difference, but just a heads-up in case it's on any other articles. Have a great night. Best Wishes, '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|Lee Vilenski]] ([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])''' 20:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

== Vellalar Origin of Nairs==

Kindly opine on the possible [[Vellalar]] origin of [[Nair]] here [[Talk:Pillai_(Kerala_title)%23Vellalar_Origin_of_Nairs]]. I believe the vellala origin tradition and the various examples of naturalisation of various tamil groups as nairs must be mentioned in the [[Nair]] page. [[User:Cyberanthropologist|Cyberanthropologist]] ([[User talk:Cyberanthropologist|talk]]) 05:44, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

== Review ==

Hi I'm Sumit banaphar, I have recently participate on [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard]] to ask that is the source I'm providing to make changes is reliable or not. So can you please review my request, if you're interested. [[User:Sumit banaphar|Sumit banaphar]] ([[User talk:Sumit banaphar|talk]]) 18:04, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

== Misuse of power ==

Mr. Ekdaliyan is misusing his power and deleting everything what I have given. Please come to baidya talk page for Your guidance. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 10:07, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/292425503/Journal-of-Bengali-Studies-Vol-4-No-2 I have used it as a source but according to Mr Ekdalian "Tamal Dasgupta, a Baidya, as clearly evident from the surname, who will obviously put forward what the Baidyas claim." But whatever he provided has proper citation itself. For example He said about census report in page80 and it is true as I myself checked it https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56022
You can also check it.
He told about T.P Russell Stracey's view about vaidya. In page 81.It is also valied
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.237762/page/n142/mode/1up
You can also check it. Each and Every point has proper citation. He also talk about what other says about Baidya. Sir Reliability should base on facts not on title. Please consider it.
[[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:24, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The article of Baidya would not complete if some neutral authors of Raj era is not allowed as very few Post Raj Era sources available for this caste. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:28, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

I want to use those information that is cited in this journal after checking reliability myself. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:43, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

And those which are available online either in googlebook ot Archieved form or any other online form for which the reliability can be checked by you also sir. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:46, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Waiting for your interference on baidya talk page for consensus as any other vaidyas I also have no Reliability on Mr. Ekdaliyan. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 15:37, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

What is going on here In wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswat_Brahmin
Page they added vaidya saraswat brahmin and it was their from the very first day of the page. Vaidya and Saraseat Brahmin know their tradition. Now Mr. Ekdaliyan deleted it from saraswat brahmin page also. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 02:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

:Hey [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]], read [[WP:OWN]]. Who added doesn't matter; and I have removed not just Baidya but also other stuff, which appeared unsourced at a glance. Thanks. [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 12:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok I understand it. This is most unfortunate for vaidya that after independence none(as far I searched) of the non vaidya writers take initiative to write properly the actual history of Vaidya. They always stands with the Mythological origin of vaidya. Vaidya themselves are minor among Brahmins and Kayastha on Bengal and not exist outside Bengal. Most probably thats why not much source available.We have folklores about how our forefathers migrated from the bank of River Saraswati. I am trying to find relevant sources. Thank you. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 12:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Even none(Non Vaidya)have interpreted our Kuluji texts also. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:01, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

It is also not reliable source but still giving you. There so many sites available but very les books available
https://familypedia.wikia.org/wiki/List_of_Saraswat_Brahmins [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:18, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Like this
http://gopalakri.blogspot.com/2013/01/saraswat-brahmin.html?m=1 [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The above block was written on 2013 [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Some Raj Era neutral sources available as I have given you but that are still not accepted as per consensus as you told me. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

hello Mr sitush.please do something to stop ekdalian,who is misusing his power to promote his caste and demoting vaidyas.check the talk page of baidya.we gave enough neutral sources to prove that vaidyas are saraswat brahmins.but that hypocrite ekdalian removing them saying they are not valid ,even they are from a neutral and well known auther.this guy Ekdalian does not deserve to be an admin of Wikipedia.
:I don't know why those caste glorifiers all think Ekdalian is an admin? (He isn't.) Perhaps because he edits properly and neutrally? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:53, 25 May 2021 (UTC).

::We are not Mr Bishonen. Baidya community has all Brahminchal tradition since ages. I have given some individual sources based on which the Journal was written Go Kayastha and Brahmin page. All those have written Book are based on the previos sources from a Kayastha or Brahmin writers. My point is only mere a title Should not be a measure of Reliability. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 14:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
:::{{u|Abhishek Sengupta 24}}, you are right about that, indeed. I was commenting on the (unsigned) comment by {{noping|Bengaliwikipro}} immediately above mine, where they say "this guy Ekdalian does not deserve to be an admin of Wikipedia" — I wasn't talking about you. My impression is that you are editing in good faith, even though your comments on Ekdalian are also inappropriate. Please only discuss edits — not editors. Also, Sitush is clearly taking a break from caste subjects, and I don't blame him. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:41, 27 May 2021 (UTC).

Ok thanks. I am sorry for that.Please excuse me Mr. Ekdaliyan and Bishonen. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 15:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

::::Thank you so much, [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] for your kind words; it means a lot to me!
::::And [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]], I also believe you are editing in good faith only, and there can be differences as far as reliability of your sources are concerned, especially since you are really trying hard to find acceptable sources in order to prove what you strongly believe. Thanks. [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 16:16, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes absolutely.thanks Mr.Ekdaliyan. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 16:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

== Nomination of [[:T. Natarajan (politician)]] for deletion ==
<div class="afd-notice">
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article '''[[:T. Natarajan (politician)]]''' is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]].

The article will be discussed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/T. Natarajan (politician)]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
</div> '''[[User:Clog Wolf|Clog Wolf]]''' [[User talk:Clog Wolf|Howl]] 15:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

==Sivakasi Riots article bothered by a sock? ==
The contents of the [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]] article are being deleted by a new user called Vendsoil. Based on the way he edits, he is most probably the sock of EruTheLord. I have filed a complaint accordingly [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/EruTheLord|here]]. Please go through this issue when you find the time. I hope you are doing well. Thank you. [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 17:35, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Sitush

2021-05-29T17:35:59Z

Mayan302: Sivakasi Riots

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[[File:Keep-calm-and-click-edit.svg|thumb|right|... or panic madly and freak out?]]
[[Image:Muscovy Duck bathing.jpg|thumb|right|Have you come here to rant at me? It is water off a duck's back.]]
[[File:Peacock.jpg|thumb|[[Manspreading]]]]

== Jimmy White ==

Hi! I just wanted to commend you for taking a look at the Jimmy White article. It's been on my list for a long time, but it's in terrible shape - and I never get round to it.

I should let you know that the Snooker Scene blog is deemed RS due to it being written by David Hendon, who also writes Snooker Scene (the magazine). Not that it makes a great deal of difference, but just a heads-up in case it's on any other articles. Have a great night. Best Wishes, '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|Lee Vilenski]] ([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])''' 20:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

== Vellalar Origin of Nairs==

Kindly opine on the possible [[Vellalar]] origin of [[Nair]] here [[Talk:Pillai_(Kerala_title)%23Vellalar_Origin_of_Nairs]]. I believe the vellala origin tradition and the various examples of naturalisation of various tamil groups as nairs must be mentioned in the [[Nair]] page. [[User:Cyberanthropologist|Cyberanthropologist]] ([[User talk:Cyberanthropologist|talk]]) 05:44, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

== Review ==

Hi I'm Sumit banaphar, I have recently participate on [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard]] to ask that is the source I'm providing to make changes is reliable or not. So can you please review my request, if you're interested. [[User:Sumit banaphar|Sumit banaphar]] ([[User talk:Sumit banaphar|talk]]) 18:04, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

== Misuse of power ==

Mr. Ekdaliyan is misusing his power and deleting everything what I have given. Please come to baidya talk page for Your guidance. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 10:07, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/292425503/Journal-of-Bengali-Studies-Vol-4-No-2 I have used it as a source but according to Mr Ekdalian "Tamal Dasgupta, a Baidya, as clearly evident from the surname, who will obviously put forward what the Baidyas claim." But whatever he provided has proper citation itself. For example He said about census report in page80 and it is true as I myself checked it https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56022
You can also check it.
He told about T.P Russell Stracey's view about vaidya. In page 81.It is also valied
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.237762/page/n142/mode/1up
You can also check it. Each and Every point has proper citation. He also talk about what other says about Baidya. Sir Reliability should base on facts not on title. Please consider it.
[[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:24, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The article of Baidya would not complete if some neutral authors of Raj era is not allowed as very few Post Raj Era sources available for this caste. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:28, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

I want to use those information that is cited in this journal after checking reliability myself. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:43, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

And those which are available online either in googlebook ot Archieved form or any other online form for which the reliability can be checked by you also sir. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:46, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Waiting for your interference on baidya talk page for consensus as any other vaidyas I also have no Reliability on Mr. Ekdaliyan. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 15:37, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

What is going on here In wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswat_Brahmin
Page they added vaidya saraswat brahmin and it was their from the very first day of the page. Vaidya and Saraseat Brahmin know their tradition. Now Mr. Ekdaliyan deleted it from saraswat brahmin page also. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 02:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

:Hey [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]], read [[WP:OWN]]. Who added doesn't matter; and I have removed not just Baidya but also other stuff, which appeared unsourced at a glance. Thanks. [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 12:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok I understand it. This is most unfortunate for vaidya that after independence none(as far I searched) of the non vaidya writers take initiative to write properly the actual history of Vaidya. They always stands with the Mythological origin of vaidya. Vaidya themselves are minor among Brahmins and Kayastha on Bengal and not exist outside Bengal. Most probably thats why not much source available.We have folklores about how our forefathers migrated from the bank of River Saraswati. I am trying to find relevant sources. Thank you. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 12:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Even none(Non Vaidya)have interpreted our Kuluji texts also. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:01, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

It is also not reliable source but still giving you. There so many sites available but very les books available
https://familypedia.wikia.org/wiki/List_of_Saraswat_Brahmins [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:18, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Like this
http://gopalakri.blogspot.com/2013/01/saraswat-brahmin.html?m=1 [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The above block was written on 2013 [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Some Raj Era neutral sources available as I have given you but that are still not accepted as per consensus as you told me. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 13:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

hello Mr sitush.please do something to stop ekdalian,who is misusing his power to promote his caste and demoting vaidyas.check the talk page of baidya.we gave enough neutral sources to prove that vaidyas are saraswat brahmins.but that hypocrite ekdalian removing them saying they are not valid ,even they are from a neutral and well known auther.this guy Ekdalian does not deserve to be an admin of Wikipedia.
:I don't know why those caste glorifiers all think Ekdalian is an admin? (He isn't.) Perhaps because he edits properly and neutrally? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 19:53, 25 May 2021 (UTC).

::We are not Mr Bishonen. Baidya community has all Brahminchal tradition since ages. I have given some individual sources based on which the Journal was written Go Kayastha and Brahmin page. All those have written Book are based on the previos sources from a Kayastha or Brahmin writers. My point is only mere a title Should not be a measure of Reliability. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 14:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
:::{{u|Abhishek Sengupta 24}}, you are right about that, indeed. I was commenting on the (unsigned) comment by {{noping|Bengaliwikipro}} immediately above mine, where they say "this guy Ekdalian does not deserve to be an admin of Wikipedia" — I wasn't talking about you. My impression is that you are editing in good faith, even though your comments on Ekdalian are also inappropriate. Please only discuss edits — not editors. Also, Sitush is clearly taking a break from caste subjects, and I don't blame him. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|tålk]] 14:41, 27 May 2021 (UTC).

Ok thanks. I am sorry for that.Please excuse me Mr. Ekdaliyan and Bishonen. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 15:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

::::Thank you so much, [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] for your kind words; it means a lot to me!
::::And [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]], I also believe you are editing in good faith only, and there can be differences as far as reliability of your sources are concerned, especially since you are really trying hard to find acceptable sources in order to prove what you strongly believe. Thanks. [[User:Ekdalian|Ekdalian]] ([[User talk:Ekdalian|talk]]) 16:16, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes absolutely.thanks Mr.Ekdaliyan. [[User:Abhishek Sengupta 24|Abhishek Sengupta 24]] ([[User talk:Abhishek Sengupta 24|talk]]) 16:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

== Nomination of [[:T. Natarajan (politician)]] for deletion ==
<div class="afd-notice">
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article '''[[:T. Natarajan (politician)]]''' is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]].

The article will be discussed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/T. Natarajan (politician)]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
</div> '''[[User:Clog Wolf|Clog Wolf]]''' [[User talk:Clog Wolf|Howl]] 15:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

==Sivakasi Riots article bothered by a sock? ==
The contents of the [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]] article are being deleted by a new user called Vendsoil. Based on the way he edit,s he is most probably the sock of EruTheLord. I have filed a complaint accordingly [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/EruTheLord|here]]. Please go through this issue when you find the time. I hope you are doing well. Thank you. [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 17:35, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Sivakasi riots of 1899

2021-05-28T16:39:12Z

Mayan302: removal of content with ref again. vandalism. reverting

{{pp-move-dispute|small=yes}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
The '''Sivakasi riots of 1899''' are a series of communal disturbances which occurred during 6 June 1899 in [[Sivakasi]], [[Tamil Nadu]],Virudhunagar district, India.

==Background==
The Nadar historian Samuel Sargunar claimed that the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] are the descendants of the ancient rulers of [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan kingdom]] and that when [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak rulers]] captured the Pandya country, they divided the country into several ''Palayams'' (divisions) and appointed [[Palaiyakkarar|Palaiyakkars]] as rulers. The [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] rulers of Tamil Nadu, as per the claims of Sargunar, imposed ''Deshaprashtam'' (ostracism) on the ancient Pandyas (Nadars), to ensure that their rise wouldn't ever happen.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=80–90| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277By K. Rajayyan">History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277 By K. Rajayyan</ref> These claims are,however, not baseless. The traditions followed by the [[Nadan (Nadar subcaste)|Nelamaikkarars]] and the existence of the ruins beneath the Teri palmrya forests of [[Tiruchendur]] and ancient Pandyan capital city of [[Korkai]], where the Nadar population is predominant, suggest they could very well be the heirs of the [[Early Pandyan Kingdom|Early Pandyas]].<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87">{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=87| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name=" Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104">[https://books.google.com/books?id=AzRbqgyVHb4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=rajani+kothari&hl=en&ei=TfaOTJa_N86OjAf3yJyJDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=nadar%20pandyas&f=false] Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104</ref> However, there is little evidence to suggest that the Nadars were the descendants of later Pandya rulers. This belief, that the Nadars had been the kings of Tamil Nadu, became the [[dogma]] of the Nadar community in the 19th century.<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87"/> The Nadars were a community mostly engaged in the palmyra industry, including the production of toddy and were therefore considered lower than other middle castes, but relatively much higher than the low castes in the 19th century. A small endogamanous group of aristocratic Nadars, known as Nelamaikkarars, were wealthy landlords.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India">[https://books.google.com/books?id=14_D50nU7R8C&pg=PA77&dq=caldwell+nadars&hl=en&ei=GmpqTMD8BozksQPU5r3FDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=caldwell%20nadars&f=false Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India By Dyron B. Daughrity]</ref> Due to their association with toddy, the Nadars were not allowed enter temples built by castes above them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=22–23| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

Some Nadar traders migrated to northern [[Tirunelveli]] and [[Virudhunagar]] to settle down in these regions. In course of time, these Nadars (Northern Nadars) became commercially skilled and therefore became upwardly mobile in the late 19th century. [[Mercantilism]] played crucial roles in facilitating their upward mobility. As the wealth of the [[Northern Nadars]] increased, they gradually began to adopt the customs of the [[Kshatriya|North Indian Kshtriyas]] in order to improve their social status as well. This process is known as [[Sanskritisation]]. They also tried to disassociate themselves from their Nadar climber counterparts and many began to adopt the title ‘Nadan’, a title which was before only used by the aristocratic Nelamaikkarars. To punctuate their wealthy and powerful position in the society, the Nadars of Sivakasi hired [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]] as their palanquin bearers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=105–109| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The upward mobility and Kshatriya pretensions of the Nadars of Six towns of Ramanad caused resentment among, castes above them, the [[Vellalar]]s and especially the [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]],the military caste just above the Nadars.<ref name="Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum">[https://books.google.com/books?id=igfd9YYCqf8C&pg=PA511&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&hl=en&ei=rrDkTN_aK4KwvgOkx7i3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false] Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum,Pg-511</ref><ref name="State and Society in India By A.R. Desai">[https://books.google.com/books?id=0yqV1Ux0oGIC&pg=PA511&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&hl=en&ei=m7LkTJ21MIzOvQOYz_25Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false] State and Society in India By A.R.</ref> Part of this change in the Nadar community resulted in some of them converting to [[Christianity]], both [[Catholicism]] and [[Protestantism]]. However, a majority of almost 90% remained [[Hindu]]s.<ref name="Clothey">{{cite book|last=Clothey|first=Fred W.|title=Ritualizing on the boundaries: continuity and innovation in the Tamil diaspora|publisher=University of South Carolina Press|year=2006|pages=88–90|isbn=978-1-57003-647-7|oclc=255232421|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uRxAOJWnyEwC&q=Sivakasi+riots%2C+1899&pg=PA89|access-date=2009-11-08}}</ref>

==Riots==
At the end of 1895, the Nadars of Sivakasi submitted a petition to the President of the Devasthanam so that a Nadar can get a footing in the management of a local Siva temple. The petition was declined by the committee. In the following years, a series of confrontations brought the Nadars against almost all the communities of Sivakasi. On 26 April 1899, a riot broke out in Sivakasi and the Maravar portion of the town was left almost completely destroyed. This event served as a precursor to the infamous Sivakasi riots. On 6th, June 1899, a group of 5,000 Maravars gathered into a mob from all parts of the surrounding villages and towns. During the night before the attack, the Nadars felled trees onto the roads which led to the town and constructed barricades leaving a few places open to draw the attackers together. The Maravars were opposed by about 1500 Nadars. The attack lasted for nearly two hours. The Maravars were sent into retreat, carrying their dead in the dozen carts brought to haul away the loot. Eight hundred and eighty-six Nadar houses were burnt. A total of 21 people were known dead. The Maravar retaliated by attacking the Nadars scattered around Sivakasi leaving 3 Nadars dead. Eventually, the riots came to an end after the intervention of the military{{Which?|date=November 2010}} in mid-July 1899.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=114–118| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>
==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
* [https://openlibrary.org/b/OL2695184M/Temple_entry_movement_and_the_Sivakasi_riots Temple entry movement and the Sivakasi riots, B. Sobhanan]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sivakasi Riots Of 1899}}
[[Category:1899 riots]]
[[Category:Riots and civil disorder in India]]
[[Category:Ethnic riots]]
[[Category:Social history of Tamil Nadu]]
[[Category:1899 in India]]
[[Category:June 1899 events]]

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/EruTheLord

2021-05-27T18:01:00Z

Mayan302: /* 27 May 2021 */

<noinclude>__TOC__</noinclude>
{{SPIarchive notice|EruTheLord}}
{{SPIpriorcases}}

===27 May 2021===
{{SPI case status|}}
====Suspected sockpuppets====

* {{checkuser|1=Vendsoil|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=BunnieCarrot|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=EruTheLord|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=Hsutis|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}


*'''Tools''': [https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/editorinteract.py?users={{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}&users={{urlencode:Vendsoil}}&users={{urlencode:BunnieCarrot}}&users={{urlencode:EruTheLord}}&users={{urlencode:Hsutis}} Editor interaction utility] • [https://tools.wmflabs.org/interaction-timeline?wiki=enwiki&user={{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}&user={{urlencode:Vendsoil}} Interaction Timeline] • [https://tools.wmflabs.org/betacommand-dev/UserCompare/{{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}.html User compare report] ''Auto-generated every hour.''

This sock user is consistently adding "article deletion tags" to pages relevant to the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadar]] article. As far as I know, this is his/her 4th sock account. He/She also removes content , from pages relevant to the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadar]] article, with references. Based on Vendsoil's recent edits I suspect he could be a sock of EruTheLord. Please investigate this when you find time. Thank you.

'''Proofs/diffs:'''

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sivakasi_riots_of_1899&diff=1024310164&oldid=1024310031 Diff1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nadan_(Nadar_subcaste)&diff=972332607&oldid=970648897 Diff2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nadar_climber&diff=972470089&oldid=972469750 Diff3] [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 17:13, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

====<big>Comments by other users</big>====
''Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Guidance#Defending yourself against claims|Defending yourself against claims]].''

====<big>Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments</big>====

----

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/EruTheLord

2021-05-27T17:14:36Z

Mayan302: /* 27 May 2021 */

<noinclude>__TOC__</noinclude>
{{SPIarchive notice|EruTheLord}}
{{SPIpriorcases}}

===27 May 2021===
{{SPI case status|}}
====Suspected sockpuppets====

* {{checkuser|1=Vendsoil|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=BunnieCarrot|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=EruTheLord|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=Hsutis|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}


*'''Tools''': [https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/editorinteract.py?users={{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}&users={{urlencode:Vendsoil}}&users={{urlencode:BunnieCarrot}}&users={{urlencode:EruTheLord}}&users={{urlencode:Hsutis}} Editor interaction utility] • [https://tools.wmflabs.org/interaction-timeline?wiki=enwiki&user={{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}&user={{urlencode:Vendsoil}} Interaction Timeline] • [https://tools.wmflabs.org/betacommand-dev/UserCompare/{{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}.html User compare report] ''Auto-generated every hour.''

This sock user is consistently adding "article deletion tags" to pages relevant to the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadar]] article. As far as I know, this is his/her 4th sock account. He/She also removes content , from pages relevant to the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadar]] article, with references. Based on Vensoil's recent edits I suspect he could be a sock of EruTheLord. Please investigate this when you find time. Thank you.

'''Proofs/diffs:'''

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sivakasi_riots_of_1899&diff=1024310164&oldid=1024310031 Diff1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nadan_(Nadar_subcaste)&diff=972332607&oldid=970648897 Diff2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nadar_climber&diff=972470089&oldid=972469750 Diff3] [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 17:13, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

====<big>Comments by other users</big>====
''Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Guidance#Defending yourself against claims|Defending yourself against claims]].''

====<big>Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments</big>====

----

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/EruTheLord

2021-05-27T17:13:37Z

Mayan302:

<noinclude>__TOC__</noinclude>
{{SPIarchive notice|EruTheLord}}
{{SPIpriorcases}}

===27 May 2021===
{{SPI case status|}}
====Suspected sockpuppets====

* {{checkuser|1=Vendsoil|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=BunnieCarrot|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=EruTheLord|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}
* {{checkuser|1=Hsutis|master name={{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}


*'''Tools''': [https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/editorinteract.py?users={{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}&users={{urlencode:Vendsoil}}&users={{urlencode:BunnieCarrot}}&users={{urlencode:EruTheLord}}&users={{urlencode:Hsutis}} Editor interaction utility] • [https://tools.wmflabs.org/interaction-timeline?wiki=enwiki&user={{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}&user={{urlencode:Vendsoil}} Interaction Timeline] • [https://tools.wmflabs.org/betacommand-dev/UserCompare/{{urlencode:{{#titleparts:{{SUBPAGENAME}}}}}}.html User compare report] ''Auto-generated every hour.''

This sock user is consistently adding "article deletion tags" to pages relevant to the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadar]] article. As far as I know, this is his/her 4th sock account. He/She also removes content , from pages relevant to the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadar]] article, with references. Based on Vensoil's recent edits I suspect he could be a sock of IruTheLord. Please investigate this when you find time. Thank you.

'''Proofs/diffs:'''

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sivakasi_riots_of_1899&diff=1024310164&oldid=1024310031 Diff1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nadan_(Nadar_subcaste)&diff=972332607&oldid=970648897 Diff2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nadar_climber&diff=972470089&oldid=972469750 Diff3] [[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 17:13, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

====<big>Comments by other users</big>====
''Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Guidance#Defending yourself against claims|Defending yourself against claims]].''

====<big>Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments</big>====

----

Sivakasi riots of 1899

2021-05-27T16:33:55Z

Mayan302: removal of content with reference. reverting

{{pp-move-dispute|small=yes}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
The '''Sivakasi riots of 1899''' are a series of communal disturbances which occurred during 6 June 1899 in [[Sivakasi]], [[Tamil Nadu]],Virudhunagar district, India.

==Background==
The Nadar historian Samuel Sargunar claimed that the [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] are the descendants of the ancient rulers of [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan kingdom]] and that when [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak rulers]] captured the Pandya country, they divided the country into several ''Palayams'' (divisions) and appointed [[Palaiyakkarar|Palaiyakkars]] as rulers. The [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] rulers of Tamil Nadu, as per the claims of Sargunar, imposed ''Deshaprashtam'' (ostracism) on the ancient Pandyas (Nadars), to ensure that their rise wouldn't ever happen.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=80–90| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277By K. Rajayyan">History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277 By K. Rajayyan</ref> These claims are,however, not baseless. The traditions followed by the [[Nadan (Nadar subcaste)|Nelamaikkarars]] and the existence of the ruins beneath the Teri palmrya forests of [[Tiruchendur]] and ancient Pandyan capital city of [[Korkai]], where the Nadar population is predominant, suggest they could very well be the heirs of the [[Early Pandyan Kingdom|Early Pandyas]].<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87">{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=87| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name=" Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104">[https://books.google.com/books?id=AzRbqgyVHb4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=rajani+kothari&hl=en&ei=TfaOTJa_N86OjAf3yJyJDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=nadar%20pandyas&f=false] Caste in Indian politics By Rajani Kothari Page103-104</ref> However, there is little evidence to suggest that the Nadars were the descendants of later Pandya rulers. This belief, that the Nadars had been the kings of Tamil Nadu, became the [[dogma]] of the Nadar community in the 19th century.<ref name="Robert Hardgrave 87"/> The Nadars were a community mostly engaged in the palmyra industry, including the production of toddy and were therefore considered lower than other middle castes, but relatively much higher than the low castes in the 19th century. A small endogamanous group of aristocratic Nadars, known as Nelamaikkarars, were wealthy landlords.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India">[https://books.google.com/books?id=14_D50nU7R8C&pg=PA77&dq=caldwell+nadars&hl=en&ei=GmpqTMD8BozksQPU5r3FDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=caldwell%20nadars&f=false Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India By Dyron B. Daughrity]</ref> Due to their association with toddy, the Nadars were not allowed enter temples built by castes above them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=22–23| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

Some Nadar traders migrated to northern [[Tirunelveli]] and [[Virudhunagar]] to settle down in these regions. In course of time, these Nadars (Northern Nadars) became commercially skilled and therefore became upwardly mobile in the late 19th century. [[Mercantilism]] played crucial roles in facilitating their upward mobility. As the wealth of the [[Northern Nadars]] increased, they gradually began to adopt the customs of the [[Kshatriya|North Indian Kshtriyas]] in order to improve their social status as well. This process is known as [[Sanskritisation]]. They also tried to disassociate themselves from their Nadar climber counterparts and many began to adopt the title ‘Nadan’, a title which was before only used by the aristocratic Nelamaikkarars. To punctuate their wealthy and powerful position in the society, the Nadars of Sivakasi hired [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]] as their palanquin bearers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=105–109| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The upward mobility and Kshatriya pretensions of the Nadars of Six towns of Ramanad caused resentment among, castes above them, the [[Vellalar]]s and especially the [[Maravar (caste)|Maravars]],the military caste just above the Nadars.<ref name="Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum">[https://books.google.com/books?id=igfd9YYCqf8C&pg=PA511&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&hl=en&ei=rrDkTN_aK4KwvgOkx7i3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false] Society in India: Change and continuity By David Goodman Mandelbaum,Pg-511</ref><ref name="State and Society in India By A.R. Desai">[https://books.google.com/books?id=0yqV1Ux0oGIC&pg=PA511&dq=maravar+just+above+nadars&hl=en&ei=m7LkTJ21MIzOvQOYz_25Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false] State and Society in India By A.R.</ref> Part of this change in the Nadar community resulted in some of them converting to [[Christianity]], both [[Catholicism]] and [[Protestantism]]. However, a majority of almost 90% remained [[Hindu]]s.<ref name="Clothey">{{cite book|last=Clothey|first=Fred W.|title=Ritualizing on the boundaries: continuity and innovation in the Tamil diaspora|publisher=University of South Carolina Press|year=2006|pages=88–90|isbn=978-1-57003-647-7|oclc=255232421|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uRxAOJWnyEwC&q=Sivakasi+riots%2C+1899&pg=PA89|access-date=2009-11-08}}</ref>

==Riots==
At the end of 1895, the Nadars of Sivakasi submitted a petition to the President of the Devasthanam so that a Nadar can get a footing in the management of a local Siva temple. The petition was declined by the committee. In the following years, a series of confrontations brought the Nadars against almost all the communities of Sivakasi. On 26 April 1899, a riot broke out in Sivakasi and the Maravar portion of the town was left almost completely destroyed. This event served as a precursor to the infamous Sivakasi riots. On 6th, June 1899, a group of 5,000 Maravars gathered into a mob from all parts of the surrounding villages and towns. During the night before the attack, the Nadars felled trees onto the roads which led to the town and constructed barricades leaving a few places open to draw the attackers together. The Maravars were opposed by about 1500 Nadars. The attack lasted for nearly two hours. The Maravars were sent into retreat, carrying their dead in the dozen carts brought to haul away the loot. Eight hundred and eighty-six Nadar houses were burnt. A total of 21 people were known dead. The Maravar retaliated by attacking the Nadars scattered around Sivakasi leaving 3 Nadars dead. Eventually, the riots came to an end after the intervention of the military{{Which?|date=November 2010}} in mid-July 1899.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=114–118| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>
==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
* [https://openlibrary.org/b/OL2695184M/Temple_entry_movement_and_the_Sivakasi_riots Temple entry movement and the Sivakasi riots, B. Sobhanan]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sivakasi Riots Of 1899}}
[[Category:1899 riots]]
[[Category:Riots and civil disorder in India]]
[[Category:Ethnic riots]]
[[Category:Social history of Tamil Nadu]]
[[Category:1899 in India]]
[[Category:June 1899 events]]

Talk:Nadan (subcaste)

2021-05-07T07:18:26Z

Mayan302: /* Nadan (sub caste) */

{{WP India
|class=stub
|importance=low
|tamilnadu=yes
|tamilnadu-importance=mid
|image-needed=yes
|assess-date=May 2012
}}

References:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XJ1trLdPc6IC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=nattatti+zamindar&source=bl&ots=wFxImKK3n-&sig=e_YCeVUPpxC8LLpBn1aGd4FgWm0&hl=en&ei=lRP2S5yjPJLcsgOxpZB-&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=nattatti+zamindar&source=bl&ots=eKkDOibOvC&sig=lwwwPrGsduJRdrM1u1mRhq6znhQ&hl=en&ei=lRP2S5yjPJLcsgOxpZB-&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=nattatti%20zamindar&f=false

== Nadan (sub caste) ==

Adityans are not the oldest and highest nadans they were one of there nelamaikkarar nadans so it's a wrong information [[User:Me1420|Me1420]] ([[User talk:Me1420|talk]]) 00:29, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
::: Wikipedia is actually not about opinions.That line is actually from a book called The Nadars of TamilNad(by Robert Hardgrave, University of California Press). It is a high quality anthropological book. In other words, it's research material. We can't remove a line that comes from a valid source. This is a Wikipedia rule. So it's really not about what you know. You have to provide valid references to substantiate your claims. That's how Wikipedia works.[[User:Mayan302|Mayan302]] ([[User talk:Mayan302|talk]]) 07:18, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Nadan (subcaste)

2021-05-04T16:26:14Z

Mayan302: removal of content with reference. reverting

Nadan (subcaste)

2021-03-27T17:44:49Z

Mayan302: reverting.pov pushing

Nadan (subcaste)

2021-03-11T16:33:46Z

Mayan302: reverting.pov pushing. if you cant find anything valid, please refrain from editing wiki articles

{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
'''Nadans''' (also referred as '''Nelamaikkarar''') are a small [[endogamy|endogamous]] group of aristocratic [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] from the regions south of the [[Thamirabarani River]] in the present-day state of [[Tamil Nadu]], India. They were hereditary tax collectors during the [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] and [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan]] dynasties and also served as petty lords under the [[Palaiyakkarar|poligars]]. The Nadans possessed vast tracts of land and were one of the few subcastes among the Nadars to have practiced [[aristocracy]]. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–33| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==History==
As hereditary tax collectors, the Nadans held civil authority over the lands in their control. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''. The [[Nadar climber]]s were totally dependent on these powerful landlords and treated them with great respect. In the regions dominated by the Nadans, even the [[Vellalar]] accountant or the [[Brahmin]] priest would show deference to the position of the Nadan lords. They rode horses and would buy slaves to work in their houses to retain their proud customs. The Nadan women followed strict gosha, revealing themselves only to the men of their own household, and rode in covered [[palanquin]]s. The Nadans built Hindu temples and also met the costs of festival expenses. The oldest and highest Nadans were the '''Adityans''' of Kayamozhi, who claimed they were the descendants of [[Surya]], the sun god. The Adityans also had special rights at the [[Shiva]] temple in [[Thiruchendur]], where they constructed one of its pavilions. They usually donated the huge wooden car to the temple and in return were given the privilege to be the first to touch the rope which would pull the car through the streets during festival times.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234</ref>

Despite their great wealth and power the Nadans, however, were considered as a portion of the greater class of Nadars and were denied entrance into temples built by higher castes. The Nadans shared the pollution of the lowest climbers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu">[https://books.google.com/books?id=YCJuAAAAMAAJ&q=manadu&dq=manadu&hl=en&ei=46yaTe7IJMrWrQfD75X3Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA] Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu</ref>{{Page needed|date=February 2019}} The Nadans would not enter Hindu temples built by higher castes until the issue was solved through campaigning movements and legislation. They claim that they were stripped of their rights and privileges due to the Nayak invasion.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240</ref> The Nadar community was then divided into different opposing groups, with each Nadar climber owing allegiance to a Nadan family. The control of the lands may pass from one Nadan to another but the climbers remained always with the trees assigned to them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=31| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

===Opposing Christianity===
In 1680, the first congregation of Nadars was started at Vadakkankulam with the conversion of a Nadar woman. The Nadar converts came neither from the lowest sections (''Kalla Shanar'') of the castes nor from the highest (''Nadans''), but from the middle subgroups and particularly the climbers. The converts were provided protection by the missionaries from the oppressions of Nadan landlords. With their traditional dominance threatened, the Nadans became the missionaries' greatest adversaries. Many Nadans supported anti-Christian societies such as the Vibuthi Sangam(the Sacred Ashes Society). However, by the 1860s the opposition of the Nadans began to wane. Eventually a few Nadans actually converted to [[Christianity]].<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=51| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper">[https://books.google.com/books?id=cecLBU_oRTcC&pg=PA14&dq=middle+nadar+azariah&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=nadans&f=false In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper]</ref>

===Nadars of Travancore===
The Nadar climbers of [[Southern Travancore]] served as [[Borassus|palmyra]] climbers on the lands of aristocratic Nadans in the eastern portion of [[Kanniyakumari]]. In the tradition of these Nadan families the lands were bestowed by the kings of Travancore in return for the Nadans' services.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=56| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==Distinctions within the Nadar community today==
During the 1960s, the Nadan families had some aura of aristocracy and authority. The distinctions that separated them from the rest of the Nadar community were largely gone, as the Nadar climbers gained wealth.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=219| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The once Nadar climbers are today widely into education, business and other important fields.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234"/>

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Nadan (Nadar Subcaste)}}
[[Category:Nadar (caste)]]

Nadar (caste)

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{{pp-protect|small=yes}}
{{other uses|Nadar (disambiguation)}}
{{redirect|Chanar|places in Iran|Chenar (disambiguation){{!}}Chenar}}

{{Use dmy dates|date=January 2013}}
{{Use Indian English|date=January 2013}}
{{Infobox ethnic group
|group = Nadar
|image =
|poptime =
|population =
|popplace = [[Chennai]], [[Kanyakumari]], [[Kollam]], [[Madurai]], [[Thanjavur]], [[Thiruvananthapuram]], [[Thoothukudi]], [[Tiruchendur]], [[Tirunelveli]], [[Virudhunagar]]
|languages = [[Tamil language|Tamil]] , [[Malayalam language|Malayalam]]
|religions = [[Hinduism]], [[Christianity]], [[Ayyavazhi]]
|related = [[Tamil people]]
}}'''Nadar''' (also referred to as ''Nadan'', ''Shanar'' and ''Shanan'') is a [[Tamil people|Tamil]] [[caste]] of [[India]]. Nadars are predominant in the districts of [[Kanyakumari]], [[Thoothukudi]], [[Tirunelveli]] and [[Virudhunagar]].

The Nadar community was not a single caste, but developed from an assortment of related subcastes, which in course of time came under the single banner Nadar. [[Nadar climber]]s were the largest subsect of today's Nadar community. A few subsects of the Nadar community, such as the [[Nadan (Nadar subcaste)|Nelamaikkarar]]s, were traditionally wealthy landlords and money lenders. Historically, most Nadars were cultivators of [[Borassus|palmyra trees]] and [[jaggery]] and a few were also involved in the [[Palm wine|toddy]] trade. Nadar climbers had faced discrimination from major upper castes in some regions. The martial art of [[Varma Kalai]] was historically practiced by the Nadars.

The socio-economic development achieved by the Nadars in southern India has elicited academic interest.<ref name="NYtimes" /> Nadars are classified and listed as an [[Other Backward Class]] by the governments of both Tamil Nadu and India.<ref name=":0" /><ref name=":1" />

==Etymology==
The community was previously known as ''Shanar''<ref>{{cite book | title=Mission and Tamil Society: Social and Religious Change in South India (1840–1900)| first=Henriette |last=Bugge| year=1994| pages=86| publisher=Curzon Press Ltd| isbn=0-7007-0292-X |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=_YhcGxvZvNEC&pg=PA86}}</ref> but legally changed their name to ''Nadar'' in 1921.<ref>{{cite journal | title=Avatars of Indian Research| author=Richard G. Fox| journal=Comparative Studies in Society and History| date=Jan 1970| volume=12 | issue = 1| pages=70| jstor=178151| doi=10.1017/s0010417500005624}}</ref> The title ''Nadar'' is believed to be derived from the Nelamaikkarars, the aristocrats of the Shanar community who had previously used it exclusively. Nadars claim that the original name of the community was ''Shantror'' or ''Shandrar'' (noble one) which, in course of time, was corrupted to Shanar. [[Channar (surname)|Channar]] is a title used by the [[Ezhava]] community of [[Kerala]].<ref name="Hardgrave1">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=20}}</ref> However, there is no evidence to support these claims.<ref name="Thoothukudi Gazetteer"/><ref name="Hardgrave2">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=80–90}}</ref>

==History==
The origin of Nadars as a social group is uncertain. Hardgrave stated that the Teri palmyra forests around today's [[Thiruchendur|Tiruchendur]] must have been their original abode.<ref name=autogenerated2>{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=19–21}}</ref> In the late 19th century, some Nadar activists <ref>{{cite book|last1= L. Hardgrave |first1= Robert |title= The Nadars of Tamilnadu: The Political Culture of a Community in Change |date=1969|pages=71–94|publisher= University of California, Berkeley. Center for South and Southeast Asia Studies |location=web|url= https://books.google.com/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC&q=Samuel+Sargunar%2C+B.A.&pg=PA82 |access-date=16 June 2017}}</ref><ref>{{cite book|last1= Bergunder|first1= Michael |title= Ritual, Caste, and Religion in Colonial South India |date=2010|publisher= University of Heidelberg |location=web|url= https://books.google.com/books?id=OcEM2IsnA1AC&q=nadars+samuel+sargunar&pg=PA153 |access-date=16 June 2017|isbn= 9789380607214 }}</ref> started claiming that the Nadars are the descendants of those who ruled the [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan]] kingdom and that when [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak rulers]] captured the Pandya country, it was divided into several ''Palayams'' (divisions) for each of which [[Palaiyakkarar|Palaiyakkars]] were appointed as rulers. They also claimed that the Nayak rulers of Tamil Nadu imposed ''Deshaprashtam'' (ostracism) on the ancient Nadars to ensure that they would not rise.<ref name="Hardgrave1"/><ref name="Thoothukudi Gazetteer">{{cite book | title=Tamil Nadu State:Thoothukudi District, Volume 1| author=Sinnakani| pages=233–242| publisher=Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research}}</ref> According to Hardgrave these claims were not completely baseless. The traditions followed by the Nelamaikkarars and the existence of the ruins beneath the Teri palmrya forests of Tiruchendur and the Pandyan capital city of [[Korkai]], where the Nadar population is predominant, suggest they could very well be the heirs of the [[Early Pandyan Kingdom|Early Pandyas]].<ref name="Hardgrave3">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=87}}</ref><ref name="Kothari">{{cite book | title=Caste in Indian Politics| last=Kothari| first=Rajni|author-link=Rajni Kothari| year=1995| pages=103–104| publisher=Orient Longman}}</ref> However, there is little evidence to support the community's claim to be descendants of the later Pandya rulers.<ref name="Kothari"/> The identity or caste of the Pandyan kings remains a mystery.<ref name="Hardgrave4">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=14}}</ref> This belief, that the Nadars had been the kings of Tamil Nadu, became the [[dogma]] of the Nadar community in the 19th century.<ref name="Hardgrave3"/> According to legendary accounts, some of the Nadars had migrated to Sri Lanka, but they had to return to India as they didn't receive proper treatment in Sri Lanka.<ref>{{cite book|title=Society and Circulation: Mobile People and Itinerant Cultures in South Asia, 1750-1950|page=62|year=2006|publisher=Anthem Press}}</ref>

==Nadars of the 19th century==
In the early nineteenth century, the Nadars were a community mostly engaged in the palmyra industry, including the production of toddy.<ref name="Hardgrave01">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=24–29}}</ref> However, there were a few subsects comprising wealthy landlords and money lenders.<ref name="Hardgrave00"/><ref name="Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India">[https://books.google.com/books?id=14_D50nU7R8C&pg=PA77 Bishop Stephen Neill: from Edinburgh to South India By Dyron B. Daughrity]</ref> At this time, the majority of Nadars lived south of the Thamirabarani River, and formed 80 - 90 per cent of the population between there and [[Cape Comorin]].<ref name="Hardgrave5">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=25}}</ref> Although numerically dominant in the area, the Nadars had a minimal interaction with other communities and they were themselves divided by their various endogamous subcastes, and thus lacked communal cohesion.<ref name="Hardgrave7">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=42}}</ref>
While the majority of the Nadar population in the south of Thamirabarani river were poor, landless [[Nadar climber|palmyra climbers]], there also existed a small endogamous sub group of aristocratic [[Nadan (Nadar subcaste)|Nadars]], known as the Nelamaikarrars or Nadans, who owned vast tracts of land.<ref name="Hardgrave00">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=29–34}}</ref> These Nadans either held their position directly under Nayak rulers in the Tiruchendur area or as petty lords under the Palaiyakkarar. They commanded high respect among the population, including from groups such as the Nadar climbers, the minority [[Vellalar]]s and the [[Brahmin]]s. Nadan men rode horses and their women rode in covered [[Litter (vehicle)|palanquins]].<ref name="Hardgrave6">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=24–31}}</ref>

Nadar climbers were also to be found in other regions of Tamil Nadu where a few palmyra trees grew. In areas where the Nadar climber population consisted of only a few families in a village, they faced discrimination from major upper castes.<ref name="Hardgrave8">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=24}}</ref> Due to their association with toddy, the Nadars were considered lower than other middle castes, but relatively higher than the low castes, and were also prohibited to enter temples built by higher ranked castes.<ref name="Hardgrave9">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=22–23}}</ref> Although associated with toddy, the Nadars did not themselves consume it.<ref name="Hardgrave10">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=39–41}}</ref> The Nadars were schismatic about their position in the caste hierarchy and firmly claimed that they were wrongly placed in the caste system due to the Nayak invasion. They were also very caste conscious.<ref name="Hardgrave11">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=44&71–72}}</ref><ref name="The Modernity of Tradition 316">{{cite book | title=The Modernity of Tradition: Political Development in India| author=Lloyd I. Rudolph, Susanne Hoeber Rudolph| year=1967| pages=36–38 | publisher=University Of Chicago Press| isbn=0-226-73137-5}}</ref>

===Nadars of Travancore===
Hardgrave conjectures that the Nadars of [[Southern Travancore]] migrated there from Tirunelveli in the 16th century after the invasion of Tirunelveli by the Raja of Travancore. Like their Tirunelveli counterparts, the Nadars of Travancore were mostly palmyra climbers. However, a significant number of Nadars were subtenants to [[Nair]] or Vellalar landlords. These aristocratic Nadars called themselves Nadans and some of them had direct control over their lands. The Nadans enjoyed special privileges under the Raja and claimed that they were superior to the climbers. The climbers of Travancore fared a little better than their Tirunelveli counterparts but suffered severe social disabilities not found in Tirunelveli due to Travancore's rigid [[Caste system in Kerala|caste hierarchy]]. As [[Swami Vivekananda]] stated, the Keralite hierarchy was a lunatic asylum of castes. One example of the social disabilities was that Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms to punctuate their low status. However, the Nadan women of the region were exempted from this restriction.<ref name="Hardgrave13">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=55–70}}</ref>

Discontented with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity and became upwardly mobile. Although they improved their status with the aid of Christian missionaries, the outcome of their conversion did not conform to the intent of those missionaries. Both the Christian and Hindu Nadar climber women wore the upper jacket in the manner of upper-class women, in order to improve their social status. In turn, upper-class men abused and discriminated against them. One Nadan family of [[Agastheeswaram]], instead of supporting their depressed counterparts, supported the upper-class men and claimed that only their women had the right to wear an upper cloth. The situation became known as the [[Upper cloth controversy]] and became violent. Eventually, with assistance from the Travancore authorities, British Christian Missionaries and [[Vaikunta Swamy]], the depressed Nadar climber women won the right to wear their upper cloth in the manner of their Nadan counterparts.<ref name="Hardgrave13"/><ref>{{cite book | title=Mixed messages: materiality, textuality, missions| author=Jamie S. Scott, Gareth Griffiths| year=2005| pages=75| publisher=[[Palgrave Macmillan]]| isbn=0-312-29576-6}}</ref>

===Northern Nadars===
Some petty Nadar traders migrated from southern Tirunelveli to northern Tirunelveli and Virudhunagar. Over time they became commercially skilled and by the late 19th century were socially aspirant. [[Mercantilism]] played a crucial role in facilitating their upward mobility but religion was also perceived as a vehicle. Around 10 percent of the community converted to Christianity, both [[Catholic]] and [[Protestant]].<ref name="Clothey">{{cite book|last=Clothey|first=Fred W.|title=Ritualizing on the boundaries: continuity and innovation in the Tamil diaspora|publisher=University of South Carolina press|year=2006|pages=88–90|isbn=978-1-57003-647-7|oclc=255232421|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uRxAOJWnyEwC&lpg=PA89|access-date=2009-11-08}}</ref>

British rule in the southern districts introduced new opportunities for trade and commerce, of which the Nadars took advantage. They established sophisticated ''pettais'' (fortified compounds) and ''urvinmurais'' (local caste associations) to ensure safety for their goods. Members of the ''uravinmurai'', who were known as ''muraikkarars'', would contribute a portion of their income to the association as ''mahimai'' (literally, to glorify oneself), in order to use the facilities of the ''pettais'' and to improve the common good. As the wealth of the Northern Nadars increased they began also to adopt the customs of the [[Kshatriya|North Indian Kshatriyas]] in order to improve their social status, in a process now known as [[Sanskritisation]]. Many tried to disassociate themselves from their Nadar climber counterparts and the term Shanar (the term generally used to call a Tamil palmrya climber). They adopted the title of ''Nadan'', previously used only by the Nelamaikkarars.
To demonstrate their wealthy and powerful social position, the Nadars of Sivakasi hired [[Maravar (caste)|Maravar]] palanquin bearers.<ref name="Hardgrave14">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=95–109}}</ref>

The upward mobility and kshatriya pretensions of the Nadars of the six towns of Ramanad caused resentment among both the Vellalar and the Maravar castes, who were ritually ranked above the Nadars.<ref name="Mandelbaum1">{{Harvnb|Mandelbaum|1970|pp=511}}</ref> The outcome was a series of caste conflicts, including the [[Sivakasi riots of 1899]]. However, the Sankritisation movement was a failure initially and the Nadar climbers, who lived as minorities, were still discriminated by the majority castes. However these confrontations aided the community to protest for the required rights and privileges, with integrity, and also test how much other communities were willing to accept the Nadar claims of high status. The Northern Nadar leaders then sought to unite their community by encouraging intermarriages within the five major Nadar subcastes and also uplift the depressed palmrya Nadar climbers. They also sought to maintain amiable relationships with other communities. This led to the formation of the Nadar Mahajana Sangam in 1910.<ref name="Hardgrave15">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=109–129}}</ref>

===Sri Lanka===
Some Nadars emigrated from South India to Sri Lanka during the British colonial era.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.sundayobserver.lk/2011/05/01/imp06.asp|title=Sri Lankan Nadars born with business flair|date=1 May 2011}}</ref><ref>{{cite book|title=The Plantation Tamils of Ceylon|page=6|last=Peebles|first=Patrick|publisher=Continuum}}</ref><ref>"Seventeenth century Tamilaham as gleaned from Jesuit letters", by M. Arumairaj, p. 200, original from = University of California</ref>

==Nadars of the 20th century==
[[File:Rattinasami Nadar.jpg|thumb|180px|right|[[Rao Bahadur T. Rattinasami Nadar]], founder of the Nadar Mahajana Sangam]]

===Nadar Mahajana Sangam===
The separate Nadar associations of the six Ramanad towns were unable to support a community that was becoming more dispersed as many began to migrate to other parts of [[Madras Presidency]]. With the rise of the politically ambitious [[T. Rattinasami Nadar]], a wealthy Nadar of Porayar in [[Thanjavur]] district, a new association was formed.<ref name="Lucy Carroll">{{cite journal | title=Colonial Perceptions of Indian Society and the Emergence of Caste(s) Associations| last=Carroll| first=Lucy| journal=The Journal of Asian Studies| date=February 1978| volume=37 |issue=2 | pages=234–235 | doi=10.2307/2054164| jstor=2054164}}</ref> This resulted from Rattinasami Nadar inviting prominent community leaders to attend a plenary session in February 1910, with the intent of establishing an organization to represent the entire community. Rattinasami Nadar's uncle, V. Ponnusami Nadar, was elected to become the first president of the association, which was called the [[Nadar Mahajana Sangam]]. The association was open to any Nadar male of any subcaste or religion, and had as its general purpose the upliftment of the community. The early Sangam conferences were dominated by the Northern Nadars.<ref name="Hardgrave16">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=130–132}}</ref><ref>{{cite book | title=India's silent revolution: the rise of the lower castes in North India| last=Jaffrelot| first=Christophe| year=2003| pages=167| publisher=Columbia University Press| isbn=0-231-12786-3}}</ref>

===Against toddy===
The campaign against toddy was one of the first steps taken by the Nadar Mahajana Sangam to enhance the social advancement of the entire Nadar community. Though majority of the Nadar climbers were engaged in the production of jaggery, a significant number of Nadar climbers were also involved in the production of toddy. The Sangam urged the Nadar climbers to abandon their traditional occupation of toddy tapping and not to sell hard toddy. However many Nadar climbers were reluctant to give up their profitable occupation. The situation got out of hand when Nadar leaders tried to intimidate the climbers, by using tenets of their cult, to give up their occupation as toddy tappers. To ease the situation the district magistrate issued a proclamation restricting the climbers to sell hard toddy only in specific regions, where toddy can be legally drawn. However the Sangam's campaign was effective for only about a year.<ref name="Hardgrave17">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=136–138}}</ref>

===Prohibition of toddy act===
The Sangam then in order to aid the climbers, sought to abolish the tax levied on palmyra trees. After the establishment of the Prohibition (of toddy) act in the Northern districts of Madras Presidency, the Nadar Mahajana Sangam along with its sister association, Dakshina Mara Nadar Sangam of Tirunelveli, sought to remove it to aid the depressed climbers. The British advisor government in turn suspended the act. However, the prohibition act was reintroduced after the independence. Under the rules of the act, the climbers could only tap between 4 am to 2pm and sell sweet toddy between 6am and 2pm. These procedures can also only be practiced by climbers who have license. The rigid government rules pressurized the depressed climbers. The two prominent Nadars Sangams constantly pressurized the government and eventually the enforcement of these regulations gradually eased. By the mid-1950s, the government assigned cooperative societies to promote jaggery production.<ref name="Hardgrave18">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=138–140}}</ref>

===Nadar educational institutions===
The Nadar community did not completely rely on the Backward Class Commission for educational advancement. In 1885, the Northern Nadars established the Kshatriya Vidhyasala High School in Virudhunagar by using the ''mahimai'' funds from the Nadar ''uravinmurai''. Education was also the primary concern of the Nadar Mahajana Sangam from inception. In 1921, the Sangam began to provide scholarship loans to needy students, and by 1964 more than 3000 such loans were offered. Some students were given assistance for foreign studies. The Sangam also aided the establishment of village schools. Education formed the largest portion of expenditure by the Nadar Mahajana Sangam.{{when|date=January 2012}} The [[Tamil Nadu Mercantile Bank|Nadar bank]] along with other cooperative societies gave 5 percent of their profit to the scholarship fund. The Nadar Mahajana Sangam also established a college, Senthilkumara Nadar College, in 1947.<ref name="Hardgrave19">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=145–146}}</ref>

===Resolution of inter-caste conflicts===
In villages where there were few Nadar climbers, they were oppressed by those in the majority. The Nadar Mahajana Sangam acted in the interests of such climbers, using the strength and influence of the community at large. The climbers could ask the Sangam to intervene in inter-community issues, which would cause the Sangam to investigate the situation and determine the validity of any Nadar claims. Then, if necessary, the Sangam would request police intervention or support a claim in court. In situations where the matter went to court, the Sangam would not provide financial support for the Nadar claimant to contest the case, but would rather see that the claim is properly heard. After [[independence of India]], the Sangam took advantage of the constitutional provisions encouraging a caste-less society and also supported government attempts to promote this vision. The support included urging their own community members to allow use of their schools, tanks, temples and wells by other communities. The name of the Nadar bank was changed to [[Tamilnad Mercantile Bank]]. These activities earned the Nadar community respect and recognition.<ref name="Hardgrave20">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=159–162}}</ref><ref>{{cite book| title=Transforming societies, transforming anthropology| author=Emilio F. Morán| year=1996| pages=[https://archive.org/details/transformingsoci0000unse_w6v7/page/62 62]| publisher=University of Michigan press| isbn=0-472-10574-4| url=https://archive.org/details/transformingsoci0000unse_w6v7/page/62}}</ref>[[File:TNagar Ranganathan Street.JPG|thumb|150px|right|Most of the shops in [[Ranganathan Street]], [[Tamil Nadu|Tamil Nadu's]] premier [[High Street|high street]], are owned by the Nadars.<ref name=Forbesindia/>]]

==Politics==
In the 1920s and 1930s, Nadar Mahajan Sangam supported the non-Brahmin movement and [[Justice Party (India)|Justice party]].<ref name="Forrester"/> [[W. P. A. Soundrapandian Nadar]] as the president of Nadar Mahajana Sangam led the effort to ally the community with [[Periyar E. V. Ramasamy]]'s [[Self-Respect Movement|Self-respect movement]]. The Northern Nadars joined the Justice party in its attack against Brahmins on cultural and religious front.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Modernity of Tradition: Political Development in India| author=Lloyd I. Rudolph and Susanne Hoeber Rudolph| year=1967| pages=48| publisher=The University of Chicago Press| isbn=0-226-73137-5}}</ref><ref>{{cite book | title=The press in Tamil Nadu and the struggle for freedom, 1917–1937| author=A. Ganesan| year=1988| pages=67| publisher=Mittal Publications| isbn=81-7099-082-3}}</ref> They also practiced self-respect marriages during the non-Brahmin movement.<ref>{{cite book | title=Wives, widows, and concubines: the conjugal family ideal in colonial India| last=Sreenivas| first=Mytheli| pages=144| publisher=Indian University of Press}}</ref>

However, in the late 1940s the Nadars' support shifted to [[Indian National Congress]], in part because of the political success of [[K. Kamaraj]], whose opinions had originally been disliked by his own community.<ref name="Hardgrave21">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=186–188}}</ref> After the end of Kamaraj's era, the Nadars' political support has become diffused across various parties and the Nadar Sangam has become less politicized.<ref name="Forrester">{{cite journal | title=Kamaraj: A Study in Percolation of Style| author=Duncan B. Forrester| journal=Modern Asian Studies| year=1970| volume=4 |issue=1| page=47| jstor=311752| doi=10.1017/s0026749x00010970}}</ref><ref name="Mandelbaum2">{{Harvnb|Mandelbaum|1970|pp=512}}</ref>

==Nadars today==
The social and economical development achieved by the Nadars have evoked academic interest.<ref name=NYtimes>{{cite news | url=https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/world/asia/11caste.html?pagewanted=1&hp| author=Polgreen, Lydia |title=New Business Class Rises in Ashes of South India's Caste System| newspaper=New York Times| date=10 September 2010| access-date=14 September 2010}}</ref><ref name="Hardgrave1969">{{cite book|last=Hardgrave|first=Robert L.|title=The Nadars of Tamilnad|url=https://archive.org/details/nadarsoftamilnad0000hard|url-access=registration|access-date=30 July 2012|year=1969|publisher=University of California Press|page=Preface-xix|id=GGKEY:YQ913HTN454}}</ref><ref name="Dennis Templeman">{{cite book | title=The Northern Nadars of Tamil Nadu: An Indian Caste in the Process of Change| last=Templeman| first=Dennis| date=19 December 1996| pages=vii (Preface)| publisher=Oxford University Press, USA| isbn=978-0-19-563788-5}}</ref><ref>{{cite book | title=India working: essays on society and economy| last=Harriss-White| first=Barbara| year=2003| pages=xvii| publisher=Cambridge University Press| isbn=0-521-80979-7}}</ref> According to N.S.Ramnath, of Forbes, the Nadars are a close knit, powerful community.<ref name=Forbesindia>{{cite news | url=http://business.in.com/printcontent/1532| author= N.S. Ramnath |title=A bank controlled by Tamil Nadu's close-knit, powerful Nadar community| magazine= Forbes India Magazine | date=3 July 2009| access-date=3 July 2009}}</ref> The Nadars, who were once predominantly not allowed to enter Hindu temples built by castes above them, now occupy respected positions as [[Trustee]]s in many [[Hindu]] temples of Tamil Nadu.<ref name="Hardgrave22">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=190}}</ref> They are financially strong and are politically influential in the Southern districts of Tamil Nadu. A political observer points out that there is a Nadar leader in almost every political party.<ref name="Nadarvote"/> The community has influential Tamil media houses, such as [[Dina Thanthi]].<ref name=Nadarvote>{{cite news | url=http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/nadar-vote-bank-remains-divided-104031701065_1.html| last=Das | first=Sanchita |title=Nadar vote bank remains divided| publisher=Business Standard| date=17 March 2004| access-date=17 March 2004}}</ref> [[M. Crawford Young|Crawford Young]] has said that:
{{quote|Today, the Nadars are recognized as an "advanced" community – a status reversal accomplished over the past century through caste horizontal mobilization of caste solidarity, challenge to servile traditional ascription through ritual transformations, effective utilization of modern opportunity through education and commerce, and skilful communal exploitation of the political arena.<ref>{{cite book| title=The politics of cultural pluralism| first=Crawford| last=Young| author-link=M. Crawford Young| year=1976| pages=[https://archive.org/details/politicsofcultur00cra_9p1/page/103 103]| publisher=The University of Wisconsin press| isbn=0-299-06740-8| url=https://archive.org/details/politicsofcultur00cra_9p1/page/103}}</ref>}}

===Government classification===
Nadars are classified and listed as a [[Backward Class]] by the governments of both Tamil Nadu and India.<ref name=":0">{{cite web |url= http://www.tn.gov.in/bcmbcmw/bclist.htm|title= List of Backward Classes approved by Government of Tamil Nadu |access-date= 26 December 2010|publisher= Government of Tamil Nadu}}</ref><ref name=":1">{{cite web |url= http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/kerala.html|title=Central list of backward classes |access-date= 26 December 2010|publisher= Government of India}}</ref>

==Subcastes==
The legend of the origin of the Nadars tell of the birth of seven sons; with the death of two, the remaining five father the separate divisions of the community. There were five major divisions among the Nadars.<ref name="Hardgrave23">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=32–34}}</ref> The Nadar community was not a single caste, but developed from an assortment of related subcastes and classes of different origins, which in course of time, came under the single banner Nadar.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani Page 233-242">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Page 233-242</ref> [[Nadar climber]] was the largest subsect of today's Nadar community.<ref name="Thoothukudi Gazetteer"/> Nadars are predominant in the south Indian districts of [[Tuticorin]], [[Kaniyakumari]], [[Tirunelveli]] and [[Virudhunagar]].<ref name="Hardgrave0">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=269–270}}</ref>

===Karukkupattaiyathar===
[[File:Palm tree climber.JPG|thumb|right|[[Nadar climber|Palmrya climber]] in [[Tirunelveli district]], Tamil Nadu]]
The Karukkupattaiyathar are supposed to be the original inhabitants of the country around Manadu. This sub-division was later known as ''Mara Nadar''. They claim to be the descendants of the Pandyans. It is the largest of the five subcastes and constitutes about 80 percent of the entire community, including the aristocratic Nelamaikkarars and the climbers beneath them. The Nelamaikarrars and the climbers are endogamous groups, forming sub-subcastes that each marry only among themselves.<ref name="Hardgrave24">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=32}}</ref>

===Mel-nattar===
The term Mel-nattar comes from ''Mel-nadu'' (western country). Mel-nattars lived traditionally in the Southern Travancore and Western Tirunelveli districts. They claim to be descendants of the Chera kings who settled in the area of the [[Western Ghats]] after the fall of their dynasty.<ref name="Hardgrave26">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=33}}</ref>
[[File:Tiruvarudi.jpg|thumb|200px|right|'''Tiruvarudi Vaihunda Nadan''', the last Zamindar of Nattathi.]]

===Nattathi===
At the time that Robert Hardgrave conducted his study, in the 1960s, the Nattathis were predominant in the village of Nattathi near [[Sawyerpuram]], [[Tuticorin]] district. There they were traditionally cultivators, traders and money lenders. Legendary accounts claim that the Nattathis are descendants born of the Pandyas and Cholas. The community was mostly Christian and remained an endogamous unit. The overlord of Nattathi was a retainer of the [[Veerapandiya Kattabomman|Kattabomma Nayaka]]. The Nattathi overlord was invested with Zamindari rights under the British. The last of the Nattathi zamindars, Tiruvarudi Vaihunda Nadan, died in 1892. The properties of the Zamindar were eventually divided among a number of claimants.<ref name="Hardgrave26"/>

===Kodikal===
They are traditionally palmrya climbers. They are supposed to have migrated to the Pandyan country from the banks of the Cauvery River in Tanjore to serve the Pandyan kings as their flag bearers.<ref name="Hardgrave27">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=34}}</ref>

===Kalla===
The Kalla Shanars were considered as the lowest division of the Nadar community. They are also known as Servai. The term ''kalla'' means "false". They are believed originally to have been palanquin bearers for the Pandyan kings or menial slaves of the Nelamaikkarar family, having descended from illegal unions within the Nadar community. They are traditionally toddy tappers.<ref name="Hardgrave27"/>

The subsect culture is not present today among the Nadars north of Tirunelveli but it still exists among those of southern Tirunelveli. The Karkuppatayathars, the endogamaous Nelamaikkarars and the Nadar climbers beneath them, are today known as ''A group'' or ''Mara Nadar'', and the remaining four subcastes are known as ''B group''.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 232-237">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page232- 237</ref>

===Christian Nadars===
In 1680, the first congregation of Nadars was started at Vaddakankulam with the conversion of Nadar women and a church was built accordingly in 1685. A permanent mission was established in 1701. Some Nadars accepted Christianity through will and some accepted it due to their aversion to local beliefs.<ref name="The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India: Reflections on a Distinctively Canonical Institution">{{cite book | title=From mission to church: the Reformed Church in America mission to India| author=Eugene P. Heideman| date=June 2001| pages=71| publisher=Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company| isbn=978-0-8028-4900-7}}</ref> In 1970, Christian Nadars numbered 150,000 as opposed to 1.5 to 2 million Hindu Nadars in [[Madras state]].<ref name="Mandelbaum3">{{Harvnb|Mandelbaum|1970|pp=511–512}}</ref> Nadar Christians, like Hindus, marry within their caste.<ref>{{cite book | title=Readings in eastern religions| author1=Harold G. Coward |author-link1=Harold Coward |author2=Ronald Wesley Neufeldt |author3=Eva K. Neumaier-Dargyay | year=2007| pages=88| publisher=Wilfrid Laurier University Press| isbn=978-0-88920-435-5}}</ref>

==Religious customs==
{{See also|Kuladevata}}
The Hindu Nadars, like other Hindus, have a variety of religious rituals and ceremonies. These include procedures relating to birth, adulthood, marriage and death. Every Hindu Nadar belongs to a ''kuttam'' (assemblage) through patrilineal descent, and each ''kuttam'' has a common family deity. During migration, families would often take soil from their family temple and enshrine it at their new home. Traditionally, all the members of a ''kuttam'' would assemble at least once a year at the family temple. With the birth of a child, the family would traditionally go to the family deity temple, where the hair of the child is shaved for the first time and offered to the deity. At the time of marriage the first invitation is presented to the family deity.<ref name="Hardgrave26"/>

The Hindu Nadars are almost entirely [[Saivite]] (only one ''kuttam'' is [[Vaishnavite]]). Of the deities, [[Murugan]] has been widely popular among the Nadars. Goddess [[Bhadrakali]] is the tutelary deity of the Nadar community. The Nadars also claim that they are the descendants of Bhadrakali. A Bhadrakali temple is usually at the centre of almost every Nadar settlement.<ref name="Hardgrave25">{{Harvnb|Hardgrave|1969|pp=36–38}}</ref>

[[File:Thamarai-Namam2.png|thumb|60px|right|The socio-religious movement of [[Ayyavazhi]] was pioneered and patronized by the Nadar community.]]

==Martial arts==
The Nadars, traditionally practised a Tamil martial art variously known as ''[[Adimurai]]'', ''chinna adi'' and ''varma adi''. In recent years, since 1958, these have been referred to as Southern-style Kalaripayattu, although they are distinct from the ancient martial art of Kalaripayattu itself that was historically the style found in Kerala.<ref>{{cite book |title=Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia. A – L |volume=1 |editor-first=Thomas A. |editor-last=Green |year=2001| page=177 |chapter=India |first=Philip B. |last=Zarilli |publisher=ABC-CLIO | isbn=978-1-57607-150-2 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=v32oHSE5t6cC&pg=PA177}}</ref>

==Some Notable Nadars==

* [[Tamilisai Soundararajan]], Governor of [[Telangana]]
* [[K. Kamaraj]], freedom fighter and former chief minister of [[Tamil Nadu]]<ref name="Hardgrave21"/>
* [[Marshal Nesamony]], politician<ref name=autogenerated1>{{cite book |title=Liberation of the Oppressed: A Continuous Struggle| first1=Ivy |last1=Peter |first2=D. |last2=Peter|year=2009|publisher=Kanniyakumari Institute of Development Studies|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=p_nHft2p3moC}}</ref>
* [[Shiv Nadar]], Founder of [[HCL Technologies]] and [[Sri Sivasubramaniya Nadar College of Engineering]]<ref>{{cite book | title=India Inc: how India's top ten entrepreneurs are winning globally| last=Pota| first=Vikas| date=7 January 2010| pages=179| publisher=Nicholas Brealey Publishing, 2009| isbn=978-1-85788-524-8}}</ref>
* [[V. V. Ramasamy Nadar]], Self Respect movement<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| last=Hardgrave| first=Robert| pages=247| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==Notes==
{{Reflist|2}}

==References==
{{refbegin}}
* {{cite book | first=Robert| last=Hardgrave |year= 1969| title= The Nadars of Tamilnad: the political culture of a community in change| publisher=University of California Press| location=Berkeley |url=https://archive.org/details/nadarsoftamilnad0000hard | url-access=registration|isbn= 81-7304-701-4}}
* {{cite book | first=David Goodman| last=Mandelbaum| year= 1970| title= Society in India, Volumes 1–2| publisher=University of California Press}}

==Further reading==
* {{cite book | first=Dennis | last=Templeman| year= 1996| title= The Northern Nadars of Tamil Nadu: An Indian Caste in the Process of Change| publisher=Oxford University Press | isbn=9780195637885 | url =https://books.google.com/books?id=yhJuAAAAMAAJ}}
*{{cite book |first=A. R. |last=Venkatachalapathy |chapter="More Kshatriya than thou!" Debating caste and ritual ranking in colonial Tamilnadu |title=Ritual, Caste and Religion in Colonial South India |editor1-first=Michael |editor1-last=Bergunder |editor2-first=Heiko |editor2-last=Frese |editor3-first=Ulrike |editor3-last=Schröder |publisher=Primus Books |year=2011 |isbn=9789380607214 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=OcEM2IsnA1AC&lpg=PA275}}

{{refend}}

[[Category:Nadar (caste)| ]]
[[Category:Indian castes]]
[[Category:Social groups of Tamil Nadu]]
[[Category:Indian surnames]]
[[Category:Social groups of India]]
[[Category:Merchant castes]]
[[Category:Brewing and distilling castes]]

Nadan (subcaste)

2021-02-20T16:40:16Z

Mayan302: no valid refs.reverting

{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
'''Nadans''' (also referred as '''Nelamaikkarar''') are a small [[endogamy|endogamous]] group of aristocratic [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] from the regions south of the [[Thamirabarani River]] in the present-day state of [[Tamil Nadu]], India. They were hereditary tax collectors during the [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] and [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan]] dynasties and also served as petty lords under the [[Palaiyakkarar|poligars]]. The Nadans possessed vast tracts of land and were one of the few subcastes among the Nadars to have practiced [[aristocracy]]. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–33| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==History==
As hereditary tax collectors, the Nadans held civil authority over the lands in their control. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''. The [[Nadar climber]]s were totally dependent on these powerful landlords and treated them with great respect. In the regions dominated by the Nadans, even the [[Vellalar]] accountant or the [[Brahmin]] priest would show deference to the position of the Nadan lords. They rode horses and would buy slaves to work in their houses to retain their proud customs. The Nadan women followed strict gosha, revealing themselves only to the men of their own household, and rode in covered [[palanquin]]s. The Nadans built Hindu temples and also met the costs of festival expenses. The oldest and highest Nadans were the '''Adityans''' of Kayamozhi, who claimed they were the descendants of [[Surya]], the sun god. The Adityans also had special rights at the [[Shiva]] temple in [[Thiruchendur]], where they constructed one of its pavilions. They usually donated the huge wooden car to the temple and in return were given the privilege to be the first to touch the rope which would pull the car through the streets during festival times.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234</ref>

Despite their great wealth and power the Nadans, however, were considered as a portion of the greater class of Nadars and were denied entrance into temples built by higher castes. The Nadans shared the pollution of the lowest climbers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu">[https://books.google.com/books?id=YCJuAAAAMAAJ&q=manadu&dq=manadu&hl=en&ei=46yaTe7IJMrWrQfD75X3Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA] Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu</ref>{{Page needed|date=February 2019}} The Nadans would not enter Hindu temples built by higher castes until the issue was solved through campaigning movements and legislation. They claim that they were stripped of their rights and privileges due to the Nayak invasion.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240</ref> The Nadar community was then divided into different opposing groups, with each Nadar climber owing allegiance to a Nadan family. The control of the lands may pass from one Nadan to another but the climbers remained always with the trees assigned to them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=31| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

===Opposing Christianity===
In 1680, the first congregation of Nadars was started at Vadakkankulam with the conversion of a Nadar woman. The Nadar converts came neither from the lowest sections (''Kalla Shanar'') of the castes nor from the highest (''Nadans''), but from the middle subgroups and particularly the climbers. The converts were provided protection by the missionaries from the oppressions of Nadan landlords. With their traditional dominance threatened, the Nadans became the missionaries' greatest adversaries. Many Nadans supported anti-Christian societies such as the Vibuthi Sangam(the Sacred Ashes Society). However, by the 1860s the opposition of the Nadans began to wane. Eventually a few Nadans actually converted to [[Christianity]].<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=51| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper">[https://books.google.com/books?id=cecLBU_oRTcC&pg=PA14&dq=middle+nadar+azariah&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=nadans&f=false In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper]</ref>

===Nadars of Travancore===
The Nadar climbers of [[Southern Travancore]] served as [[Borassus|palmyra]] climbers on the lands of aristocratic Nadans in the eastern portion of [[Kanniyakumari]]. In the tradition of these Nadan families the lands were bestowed by the kings of Travancore in return for the Nadans' services.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=56| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==Distinctions within the Nadar community today==
During the 1960s, the Nadan families had some aura of aristocracy and authority. The distinctions that separated them from the rest of the Nadar community were largely gone, as the Nadar climbers gained wealth.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=219| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The once Nadar climbers are today widely into education, business and other important fields.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234"/>

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Nadan (Nadar Subcaste)}}
[[Category:Nadar (caste)]]

Nadan (subcaste)

2021-02-19T15:28:58Z

Mayan302: add refs

{{Use dmy dates|date=August 2020}}
{{Use Indian English|date=August 2020}}
'''Nadans''' (also referred as '''Nelamaikkarar''') are a small [[endogamy|endogamous]] group of aristocratic [[Nadar (caste)|Nadars]] from the regions south of the [[Thamirabarani River]] in the present-day state of [[Tamil Nadu]], India. They were hereditary tax collectors during the [[Madurai Nayak Dynasty|Nayak]] and [[Pandyan Dynasty|Pandyan]] dynasties and also served as petty lords under the [[Palaiyakkarar|poligars]]. The Nadans possessed vast tracts of land and were one of the few subcastes among the Nadars to have practiced [[aristocracy]]. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–33| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==History==
As hereditary tax collectors, the Nadans held civil authority over the lands in their control. The term ''Nadan'' means ''lords of the land''. The [[Nadar climber]]s were totally dependent on these powerful landlords and treated them with great respect. In the regions dominated by the Nadans, even the [[Vellalar]] accountant or the [[Brahmin]] priest would show deference to the position of the Nadan lords. They rode horses and would buy slaves to work in their houses to retain their proud customs. The Nadan women followed strict gosha, revealing themselves only to the men of their own household, and rode in covered [[palanquin]]s. The Nadans built Hindu temples and also met the costs of festival expenses. The oldest and highest Nadans were the '''Adityans''' of Kayamozhi, who claimed they were the descendants of [[Surya]], the sun god. The Adityans also had special rights at the [[Shiva]] temple in [[Thiruchendur]], where they constructed one of its pavilions. They usually donated the huge wooden car to the temple and in return were given the privilege to be the first to touch the rope which would pull the car through the streets during festival times.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=29–30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234</ref>

Despite their great wealth and power the Nadans, however, were considered as a portion of the greater class of Nadars and were denied entrance into temples built by higher castes. The Nadans shared the pollution of the lowest climbers.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=30| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu">[https://books.google.com/books?id=YCJuAAAAMAAJ&q=manadu&dq=manadu&hl=en&ei=46yaTe7IJMrWrQfD75X3Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA] Mān̳āḍu:a social-history of Mān̳avīra Vaḷanāḍu</ref>{{Page needed|date=February 2019}} The Nadans would not enter Hindu temples built by higher castes until the issue was solved through campaigning movements and legislation. They claim that they were stripped of their rights and privileges due to the Nayak invasion.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240">[https://books.google.com/books?id=w2AwAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions] Gazetteers of India Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu,Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 240</ref> The Nadar community was then divided into different opposing groups, with each Nadar climber owing allegiance to a Nadan family. The control of the lands may pass from one Nadan to another but the climbers remained always with the trees assigned to them.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=31| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

===Opposing Christianity===
In 1680, the first congregation of Nadars was started at Vadakkankulam with the conversion of a Nadar woman. The Nadar converts came neither from the lowest sections (''Kalla Shanar'') of the castes nor from the highest (''Nadans''), but from the middle subgroups and particularly the climbers. The converts were provided protection by the missionaries from the oppressions of Nadan landlords. With their traditional dominance threatened, the Nadans became the missionaries' greatest adversaries. Many Nadans supported anti-Christian societies such as the Vibuthi Sangam(the Sacred Ashes Society). However, by the 1860s the opposition of the Nadans began to wane. Eventually a few Nadans actually converted to [[Christianity]].<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=51| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref><ref name="In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper">[https://books.google.com/books?id=cecLBU_oRTcC&pg=PA14&dq=middle+nadar+azariah&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=nadans&f=false In the Shadow of the Mahatma: Bishop vs Azariah and the Travails of Christianity in British India. By Susan Billington Harper]</ref>

===Nadars of Travancore===
The Nadar climbers of [[Southern Travancore]] served as [[Borassus|palmyra]] climbers on the lands of aristocratic Nadans in the eastern portion of [[Kanniyakumari]]. In the tradition of these Nadan families the lands were bestowed by the kings of Travancore in return for the Nadans' services.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=56| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref>

==Distinctions within the Nadar community today==
During the 1960s, the Nadan families had some aura of aristocracy and authority. The distinctions that separated them from the rest of the Nadar community were largely gone, as the Nadar climbers gained wealth.<ref>{{cite book | title=The Nadars of Tamil Nadu| author=Robert Hardgrave| pages=219| publisher=University of California Press}}</ref> The once Nadar climbers are today widely into education, business and other important fields.<ref name="Gazetteers of India, Tamil Nadu state: Thoothukudi district by Sinnakani: Copyrighted by the Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research Page 234"/>

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Nadan (Nadar Subcaste)}}
[[Category:Nadar (caste)]]