Wikipedia - User contributions [en]

Cube theory

2024-07-17T21:05:52Z

Mover of molehills: Sorry, I need to start using Preview

#REDIRECT [[Cubical atom]]

Cube theory

2024-07-17T21:05:23Z

Mover of molehills: Fixed link

#REDIRECT [[Cubical Atom]]

Cube theory

2024-07-17T21:05:00Z

Mover of molehills: Created new redirect

#REDIRECT [[Cubic Atom]]

Isaac Saul

2024-07-11T17:07:15Z

Mover of molehills: /* Career */ Added new development

{{short description|American journalist}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=January 2024}}
{{Infobox person
| name = Isaac Saul
| image =
| caption = Saul in 2021
| birth_place = [[Trenton, New Jersey]], U.S.
| education = [[Pennsbury High School]]
| alma_mater = [[University of Pittsburgh]]
| occupation = Journalist
| website = {{URL|http://www.readtangle.com/}}
}}

'''Isaac M. Saul''' ({{IPAc-en|s|ɔː|l}}) is an American journalist. His work has appeared in publications including [[CNN]], ''[[The Huffington Post]]'', [[Time (magazine)|''TIME'' Magazine]],<ref>{{Cite magazine|title=YOLK Solar Cow: The 100 Best Inventions of 2019|url=https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|access-date=January 14, 2021|magazine=Time|language=en-us|archive-date=November 29, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129015117/https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|url-status=live}}</ref> the ''[[Independent Journal Review]]''<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul, Author at IJR|url=https://ijr.org/author/isaacsaul/|access-date=January 14, 2021|website=IJR|language=en-US|archive-date=March 27, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327173834/https://ijr.com/author/isaacsaul/|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Daily Mail|''The Daily Mail'']].<ref name=":3" /> Outside of his work with newspapers, in 2020 he founded ''Tangle'', an online newsletter which aims to give nonpartisan coverage of current events.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Brother |first=Nate |date=December 6, 2023 |title=Transylvania Hosts Journalist Isaac Saul in Creative Intelligence Series. |url=https://transyrambler.com/2023/12/06/transylvania-hosts-journalist-isaac-saul-in-creative-intelligence-series/ |access-date=December 8, 2023 |website=The Rambler |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Early life and education ==
Saul was born in [[Trenton, New Jersey]]. He first became interested in journalism during his time at [[Pennsbury High School]] in Pennsylvania, and got his first job in news while he was an undergraduate student in nonfiction writing at the [[University of Pittsburgh]].<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |title=Isaac Saul |url=http://www.isaacsaul.com/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115211129/http://www.isaacsaul.com/ |archive-date=January 15, 2021 |access-date=January 13, 2021 |website=Isaac Saul |language=en}}</ref>

== Career ==
Saul later began work at ''[[HuffPost|The Huffington Post]]'', which he left in 2014, and later worked for [[A Plus (website)|''A Plus'']].<ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=''Tangle'' founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |website=Axios}}</ref> During the course of his career as a reporter, Saul has covered issues mainly related to [[Politics of the United States|American politics]]<ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=September 28, 2016|title=I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=January 21, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232844/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[sport]]s.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=January 20, 2014|title=What Richard Sherman Taught Us About America|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=February 18, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210218063909/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|url-status=live}}</ref> His reporting on an encounter that he had with a controversial lawyer named Aaron Schlossberg was featured in a live broadcast on CNN in 2018.<ref>{{Citation|title=Reporter describes encounter with NYC lawyer - CNN Video|date=May 18, 2018 |url=https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|access-date=January 13, 2021|archive-date=January 24, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210124010837/https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also worked as an opinion editor for several major magazines and published several editorials stating his opinions on specific political candidates.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref> Other topics he has covered include religion.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Van den Terrell |first=Emma |date=2015 |title=Agnost-a-What? |url=https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |journal=Society |volume=52 |issue=3 |pages=201–202 |doi=10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |s2cid=255515099 |via=[[EBSCOHost]]}}</ref>

Saul's work in reporting drew particular praise during the [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|challenges to the 2020 US presidential election]], when he helped to discredit some of the [[Conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]] and allegations of [[Electoral fraud|voter fraud]] around the election. As part of this effort, he published a running thread of [[Twitter|tweets]] in which he challenged his readers to find an instance of alleged voter fraud that he could not disprove, a project which received external media coverage.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=November 13, 2020 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref> Saul publicly condemned a number of the fraud claims that he had to respond to, saying that "new lies just kept pouring in", and expressed concern that some of the conspiracy theories were wrongly accusing [[poll workers]] of committing election fraud, which could put the lives of these workers in danger.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Fisher |first=Anthony L. |title=Voter-fraud debunking journalist Isaac Saul talks about his viral election thread and why the conspiracy theories put poll workers in danger |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/voter-fraud-debunked-isaac-saul-viral-election-thread-conspiracy-theories-2020-11 |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=Business Insider |language=en-US}}</ref> In the end, he had challenged over 32 different conspiracy theories within the first week after the election results were announced.<ref>{{Cite web|date=November 15, 2020|title=32 Republican 'Election Fraud' Claims, Debunked by Isaac Saul|url=https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|access-date=March 27, 2021|website=TrumpFile.org|language=en-US|archive-date=December 2, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201202192105/https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|url-status=live}}</ref>

Also in conjunction with the 2020 election, Saul drew coverage for betting $15,000 with a friend that [[Joe Biden]] would be inaugurated as president, a bet which he won.<ref>{{Cite web|title=STF Special: Betting $15,000 In Gold On The Future Of The Republic|url=https://www.spreaker.com/user/ultiworld/stf-interview-with-ike-saul|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=Spreaker|language=en}}</ref>

In 2024, Saul gave a [[TED talk]] in Vancouver on the subject of bipartisan communication and the use of language to signal partisan identity in modern political discourse.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2024-04-19 |title=Connectors: Notes on Session 11 of TED2024 {{!}} TED Blog |url=https://blog.ted.com/connectors-notes-on-session-11-of-ted2024/ |access-date=2024-07-11 |language=en-US}}</ref>

== ''Tangle'' ==
In July 2019 Saul began a politics newsletter called ''The Shuffle'' which was later renamed to ''Tangle''.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=Two years (!!!) of ''Tangle''...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/two-years-of-tangle|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.readtangle.com|date=July 29, 2021 }}</ref> The newsletter continued to expand in readership over the coming months, eventually becoming read in as many as thirty countries.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/isaac-saul/|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=Forbes|language=en}}</ref> On April 19, 2021, Saul announced that he had quit his job as a newspaper editor to work on ''Tangle'' full-time.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=So, I quit my job today...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/quit-my-job-today|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.readtangle.com|date=April 19, 2021 }}</ref> ''Tangle'' has received substantial media coverage focused on the success of its subscriber-based model<ref name="Academy">{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=October 11, 2023 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref> and its efficacy in bridging political divisions.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=May 30, 2022 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=November 17, 2023}}</ref> In 2023, the first live ''Tangle'' event, on the state of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], was hosted in Philadelphia.<ref name=":4" /> As of October 2023, ''Tangle'' is believed to have more than 65,000 subscribers, generating more than $600,000 of revenue per year.<ref name="Academy" />

== Recognition ==
In 2016, [[Yahoo! News]] named Saul as one of the 16 people who had had the greatest influence on the [[2016 United States elections|2016 US election.]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=16 people who shaped the 2016 election: Isaac Saul|url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=www.yahoo.com|date=October 17, 2016 |language=en-US|archive-date=September 19, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919085147/https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|url-status=live}}</ref> He also made the ''[[Forbes]]'' "Next 1000" list of "upstart entrepreneurs redefining the American dream".<ref>{{Cite web|title=Forbes Next 1000 2021|url=https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|access-date=March 27, 2021|website=Forbes|archive-date=March 27, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327062454/https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|url-status=live}}</ref>

== Personal life ==
Outside of his work, Saul is a competitive [[ultimate frisbee]] player. He won multiple Pennsylvania state championships while playing for his Pennsbury High School team, he won two national championships with the University of Pittsburgh team, and he won a national championship with the Pride of New York (PoNY) club team in New York City.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Pollock|first1=Simon|date=October 23, 2018|title=PoNY Dismantles Revolver To Win National Title|url=https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|access-date=January 14, 2021|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=February 9, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210209210526/https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also played for the [[New York City | New York]] Rumble.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Charlie Eisenhood in News with 6|date=June 9, 2014|title=NY Rumble's Isaac Saul To Join AUDL's Empire After MLU Season|url=https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=January 15, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115094040/https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|url-status=live}}</ref> Saul has additionally traveled around the world for his work, and spent five months studying in a [[yeshiva]] while living in [[Jerusalem]] after college.<ref name=":1" />

== References ==
{{reflist}}

== External links ==
* [http://isaacsaul.com Saul's personal website]
* [http://readtangle.com ''Tangle'' official site]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Saul, Isaac}}
[[Category:1991 births]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:American journalists]]
[[Category:University of Pittsburgh alumni]]
[[Category:Pennsbury High School alumni]]
[[Category:People from Trenton, New Jersey]]
[[Category:Voter suppression]]

Peter Higgs

2024-04-09T21:17:28Z

Mover of molehills: /* Personal life and political views */ Reworded plagiarized sentence

{{Short description|British theoretical physicist (1929–2024)}}
{{EngvarB|date=July 2020}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=July 2020}}
{{Infobox scientist
| name = Peter Higgs
| birth_name = Peter Ware Higgs
| honorific_suffix = {{postnominals|country=GBR|CH|FRS|FRSE|HonFInstP|size=100%}}
| image = Nobel Prize 24 2013.jpg
| caption = Higgs in 2013
| birth_date = {{birth date|1929|5|29|df=y}}
| birth_place = [[Newcastle upon Tyne]], England
| death_date = {{death date and age|2024|04|08|1929|5|29|df=y}}
| death_place = [[Edinburgh]], Scotland
| nationality = British<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.stfc.ac.uk/research/particle-physics-and-particle-astrophysics/peter-higgs-a-truly-british-scientist/|title=Peter Higgs: a truly British scientist|access-date=6 October 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161010103534/http://www.stfc.ac.uk/research/particle-physics-and-particle-astrophysics/peter-higgs-a-truly-british-scientist/|archive-date=10 October 2016|url-status=live}}</ref>
| spouse = {{marriage|Jody Williamson|1963|1972|reason=divorced}}
| children = 2
| field = [[Theoretical physics]]
| work_institutions = [[University of Edinburgh]] [[Imperial College London]] [[University College London]] [[King's College London]]
| alma_mater = [[King's College London]] [[University of London]] (BSc, MSc, PhD)
| doctoral_advisors = [[Charles Coulson]]<ref name=higgsphd/><ref name="mathgene">{{MathGenealogy|id=35098}}</ref> [[H. Christopher Longuet-Higgins|Christopher Longuet-Higgins]]<ref name=higgsphd/><ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/higgs/peter-higgs |title=Peter Ware Higgs CH DSc PhD MSc BSc FRS FRSE FInstP |website=ph.ed.ac.uk |quote=initially under the supervision of Charles Coulson and subsequently Christopher Longuet-Higgins |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131014121815/http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/higgs/peter-higgs |archive-date=14 October 2013 |url-status=live }}</ref>
| doctoral_students = {{Plainlist|
* [[Lewis Ryder]]<ref>{{Cite web |last=Bowder |first=Bill |date=10 April 2008 |title=Search begins for 'God particle' |url=https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2008/11-april/news/uk/search-begins-for-god-particle |access-date=9 April 2024 |website=[[Church Times]] |quote=Dr Lewis Ryder, (...), who was supervised by Professor Higgs,}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=Lewis Ryder |url=https://www.genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/id.php?id=145735 |access-date=9 April 2024 |website=[[Mathematics Genealogy Project]]}}</ref>
* [[David Wallace (physicist)|David Wallace]]<ref name="mathgene"/>
* [[Christopher Bishop]]<ref name=theburgh>{{cite web|publisher=[[University of Edinburgh School of Informatics]]|title=Professor Christopher Bishop elected Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh|access-date=8 September 2020|url=https://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/events/news/chrisbishopfrse.html}}</ref>}}
| thesis_title = Some problems in the theory of molecular vibrations
| thesis_url = http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.572829
| thesis_year = 1955
| known_for = [[Higgs boson]] [[Higgs field]] [[Higgs mechanism]] [[Symmetry breaking]]
| influences =
| prizes = {{Plainlist|
* [[Hughes Medal]] (1981)
* [[Rutherford Medal and Prize|Rutherford Medal]] (1984)
* [[Dirac Medal (IOP)|Dirac Medal and Prize]] (1997)
* [[High Energy and Particle Physics Prize]] (1997)
* [[Royal Society of Edinburgh#Royal Medals|Royal Medal]] (2000)
* [[Wolf Prize in Physics]] (2004)
* [[Oskar Klein Memorial Lecture|Oskar Klein Memorial Lecture and Medal]] (2009)
* [[Sakurai Prize|J.J. Sakurai Prize]] (2010)
* [[Nobel Prize in Physics]] (2013)
* [[Princess of Asturias Awards|Princess of Asturias Award]] (2013)
* [[Copley Medal]] (2015)}}
| website = {{Official URL}}
| signature = Signature of British physicist Peter Higgs.png
}}

'''Peter Ware Higgs''' {{postnominals|country=GBR|size=100%|CH|FRS|FRSE|HonFInstP}} (29 May 1929 – 8 April 2024) was a British [[Theoretical physics|theoretical physicist]], [[Emeritus Professor]] at the [[University of Edinburgh]],<ref name=Edit>Griggs, Jessica (Summer 2008) [http://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/edit-summer-08.pdf The Missing Piece] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161220031426/http://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/edit-summer-08.pdf |date=20 December 2016 }} ''Edit'' the University of Edinburgh Alumni Magazine, p. 17</ref><ref name="NYT-20140915">{{cite news |last=Overbye |first=Dennis |author-link=Dennis Overbye |title=A Discoverer as Elusive as His Particle |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/science/a-discoverer-as-elusive-as-his-particle-.html |date=15 September 2014 |work=[[New York Times]] |access-date=15 September 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140915201006/http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/science/a-discoverer-as-elusive-as-his-particle-.html |archive-date=15 September 2014 |url-status=live }}</ref> and [[Nobel Prize in Physics|Nobel Prize]] laureate for his work on the mass of [[subatomic particle]]s.<ref>Overbye, Dennis. [https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/science/a-discoverer-as-elusive-as-his-particle-.html A Pioneer as Elusive as His Particle] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160723101230/http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/science/a-discoverer-as-elusive-as-his-particle-.html |date=23 July 2016 }}, ''[[The New York Times]]'' website, 15 September 2014. Also published in print on 16 September 2014, on page D1 of the New York edition.</ref><ref name="NYT-20220715">{{cite news |last=Blum |first=Deborah |title=The Recluse Who Confronted the Mystery of the Universe – Frank Close's "Elusive" looks at the life and work of the man who changed our ideas about the basis of matter. |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/books/review/elusive-peter-higgs-frank-close.html |date=15 July 2022 |work=[[The New York Times]] |accessdate=25 September 2022 }}</ref>

In the 1960s, Higgs proposed that [[broken symmetry]] in [[electroweak theory]] could explain the origin of [[mass]] of [[elementary particles]] in general and of the [[W and Z bosons]] in particular. This so-called [[Higgs mechanism]], which was proposed by several physicists besides Higgs at about the same time, predicts the existence of a new particle, the [[Higgs boson]], the detection of which became one of the great goals of physics.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://physicsworld.com/a/the-tale-of-the-blogs-boson/ |title=The tale of the blogs' boson |first=Martin |last=Griffiths |date=1 May 2007 |access-date=5 March 2020 |website=[[Physics World]]}}</ref><ref>Fermilab Today (16 June 2005) [http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/archive_2005/today05-06-16.html Fermilab Results of the Week. Top Quarks are Higgs' best Friend] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080921134304/http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/archive_2005/today05-06-16.html |date=21 September 2008 }} Retrieved on 27 May 2008</ref> On 4 July 2012, [[CERN]] announced the discovery of the boson at the [[Large Hadron Collider]].<ref name=BBC-04Jul12/> The Higgs mechanism is generally accepted as an important ingredient in the [[Standard Model]] of [[particle physics]], without which certain particles would have no mass.<ref>Rincon, Paul (10 March 2004) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3546973.stm Fermilab 'God Particle' may have been seen] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080719045753/http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3546973.stm |date=19 July 2008 }} Retrieved on 27 May 2008</ref>

Higgs was honoured with a number of awards in recognition of his work, including the 1981 [[Hughes Medal]] from the [[Royal Society]]; the 1984 [[Rutherford Medal and Prize|Rutherford Medal]] from the [[Institute of Physics]]; the 1997 [[Dirac Medal (IOP)|Dirac Medal and Prize]] for outstanding contributions to theoretical physics from the [[Institute of Physics]]; the 1997 High Energy and Particle Physics Prize by the [[European Physical Society]]; the 2004 [[Wolf Prize in Physics]]; the 2009 [[Oskar Klein Memorial Lecture]] medal from the [[Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences]]; the 2010 [[American Physical Society]] [[Sakurai Prize|J. J. Sakurai Prize for Theoretical Particle Physics]]; and a unique Higgs Medal from the [[Royal Society of Edinburgh]] in 2012.<ref name =CV/> The discovery of the [[Higgs boson]] prompted fellow physicist [[Stephen Hawking]] to note that he thought that Higgs should receive the [[Nobel Prize in Physics]] for his work,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/04/higgs-boson-stephen-hawking|title=Higgs boson breakthrough should earn physicist behind search Nobel Prize: Stephen Hawking|work=National Press|access-date=5 July 2012|date=4 July 2012}}</ref><ref>{{cite video|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18708626|title=Stephen Hawking on Higgs: 'Discovery has lost me $100'|publisher=BBC|access-date=6 July 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120706045822/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18708626|archive-date=6 July 2012|url-status=live}}</ref> which he finally did, shared with [[François Englert]] in 2013.<ref>Amos, Jonathan (8 October 2013) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24445325 Higgs: Five decades of noble endeavour] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160611120757/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24445325 |date=11 June 2016 }} BBC News Science and Environment; retrieved 8 October 2013</ref> Higgs was appointed to the [[Order of the Companions of Honour]] in the [[2013 New Year Honours]]<ref>{{London Gazette|issue=60367|date=29 December 2012 |page=28 |supp=y}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|last=Rincon|first=Paul|title=Peter Higgs: honour for physicist who proposed particle|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20855404|access-date=29 December 2012|newspaper=BBC News website|date=28 December 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121229184143/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20855404|archive-date=29 December 2012|url-status=live}}</ref> and in 2015 the Royal Society awarded him the [[Copley Medal]], the world's oldest scientific prize.<ref>{{cite web|url= https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-33594055|title= Prof Peter Higgs wins the Royal Society's Copley Medal|author= |date= 20 July 2015|website= BBC News|access-date= 22 July 2015|archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20150723043456/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-33594055|archive-date= 23 July 2015|url-status= live}}</ref>

==Early life and education==
Higgs was born in the [[Elswick, Tyne and Wear|Elswick]] district of [[Newcastle upon Tyne]], England, to Thomas Ware Higgs (1898–1962) and his wife Gertrude Maude née Coghill (1895–1969).<ref name = CV>Staff (29 November 2012) [http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/higgs/peter-higgs Peter Higgs: Curriculum Vitae] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131014121815/http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/higgs/peter-higgs |date=14 October 2013 }} The University of Edinburgh, School of Physics and Astronomy, Retrieved 9 January 2012</ref><ref>GRO Register of Births: Peter W Higgs, Jun 1929 10b 72 Newcastle T., mmn = Coghill</ref><ref>GRO Register of Marriages: Thomas W Higgs = Gertrude M Coghill, Sep 1924 6a 197 Bristol</ref><ref name=Guardian>Sample, Ian. [https://www.theguardian.com/weekend/story/0,,2210858,00.html "The god of small things"], ''The Guardian'', 17 November 2007, weekend section.</ref><ref>Macdonald, Kenneth (10 April 2013) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22073080 Peter Higgs: Behind the scenes at the Universe] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181015202639/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22073080 |date=15 October 2018 }}. BBC.</ref> His father worked as a sound engineer for the BBC, and as a result of childhood asthma, together with the family moving around because of his father's job and later [[World War II]], Higgs missed some early schooling and was taught at home.<ref>{{cite web |title=Peter Higgs |url=https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2013/higgs/facts/ |website=The Nobel Prize |access-date=9 April 2024}}</ref> When his father relocated to [[Bedford]], Higgs stayed behind in [[Bristol]] with his mother, and was largely raised there. He attended [[Cotham Grammar School]] in Bristol from 1941–46,<ref name =CV/><ref>The Cotham Grammar School, a High-Performing Specialist Co-operative Academy [http://www.cotham.bristol.sch.uk/news/default.asp?storyID=208, The Dirac-Higgs Science Centre] {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130523211320/http://www.cotham.bristol.sch.uk/news/default.asp?storyID=208, |date=23 May 2013 }} Retrieved 10 January 2013</ref> where he was inspired by the work of one of the school's [[Alumnus|alumni]], [[Paul Dirac]], a founder of the field of [[quantum mechanics]].<ref name=Guardian/>

In 1946, at the age of 17, Higgs moved to [[City of London School]], where he specialised in mathematics, then in 1947 to [[King's College London]], where he graduated with a first class honours degree in Physics in 1950 and achieved a master's degree in 1952.<ref>{{cite web |title=Peter Higgs |url=https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/peter-higgs |website=King's College London |access-date=9 April 2024}}</ref> He was awarded an [[1851 Research Fellowship]] from the [[Royal Commission for the Exhibition of 1851]],<ref>1851 Royal Commission Archives</ref> and performed his doctoral research in molecular physics under the supervision of [[Charles Coulson]] and [[H. Christopher Longuet-Higgins|Christopher Longuet-Higgins]].<ref name=higgsphd/> He was awarded a PhD degree in 1954 with a thesis entitled ''Some problems in the theory of molecular vibrations'' from [[King's College London]].<ref name=higgsphd>{{cite thesis|degree=PhD|publisher=King's College London (University of London)|title=Some problems in the theory of molecular vibrations|first=Peter Ware|last=Higgs|date=1954|url=http://copac.jisc.ac.uk/id/21708539?style=html|id={{EThOS|uk.bl.ethos.572829}}|website=ethos.bl.uk|oclc=731205676|access-date=13 November 2017|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20171114040237/http://copac.jisc.ac.uk/id/21708539?style=html|archive-date=14 November 2017|url-status=live}}</ref><ref name = CV/><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.kcl.ac.uk/aboutkings/history/famouspeople/peterhiggs.aspx|title=Professor Peter Higgs|author=King's College London|access-date=8 October 2013|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131011101353/http://www.kcl.ac.uk/aboutkings/history/famouspeople/peterhiggs.aspx|archive-date=11 October 2013|url-status=live}}</ref>

==Career and research==
After finishing his doctorate, Higgs was appointed a Senior [[Research Fellow]] at the [[University of Edinburgh]] (1954–56). He then held various posts at [[Imperial College London]], and [[University College London]] (where he also became a temporary lecturer in Mathematics). He returned to the [[University of Edinburgh]] in 1960 to take up the post of Lecturer at the Tait Institute of Mathematical Physics, allowing him to settle in the city he had enjoyed while [[hitchhiking]] to the Western [[Scottish Highlands|Highlands]] as a student in 1949.<ref name = TheInterview>Mackenzie, Kate (2012) "It Was Worth The Wait" The Interview, The University of Edinburgh Alumni Magazine, Winter 2012/13</ref><ref>{{cite video |url=http://vimeo.com/37175057 |title=Professor Peter Higgs broadcast footage |publisher=University of Edinburgh |year=2012 |time=2:00 |access-date=3 July 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130521082654/http://vimeo.com/37175057 |archive-date=21 May 2013 |url-status=live }}</ref> He was promoted to [[Reader (academic rank)|Reader]], became a [[Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh]] (FRSE) in 1974 and was promoted to a Personal Chair of Theoretical Physics in 1980. He retired in 1996 and became [[Emeritus professor]] at the [[University of Edinburgh]].<ref Name = Edit/>

Higgs was elected [[List of Fellows of the Royal Society elected in 1983|Fellow of the Royal Society (FRS)]] in 1983 and [[Fellow of the Institute of Physics]] (FInstP) in 1991. He was awarded the [[Rutherford Medal and Prize]] in 1984. He received an honorary degree from the [[University of Bristol]] in 1997. In 2008 he received an Honorary Fellowship from [[Swansea University]] for his work in particle physics.<ref name=SUHF>{{cite web
|url = http://www.swan.ac.uk/news_centre/releases/080908cernlhc/
|title = Swansea University Honorary Fellowship
|work = Swansea University
|access-date = 20 December 2011
|url-status = dead
|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20121012072248/http://www.swan.ac.uk/news_centre/releases/080908cernlhc/
|archive-date = 12 October 2012
|df = dmy-all
}}
</ref>

At Edinburgh Higgs first became interested in [[mass]], developing the idea that particles – massless when the universe began – acquired mass a fraction of a second later as a result of interacting with a theoretical field (which became known as the [[Higgs field]]). Higgs postulated that this field permeates space, giving mass to all elementary subatomic particles that interact with it.<ref name=Guardian/><ref name=EB>[http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040396/Higgs-particle "Higgs particle"] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20071121144551/http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040396/Higgs-particle |date=21 November 2007 }}, ''Encyclopædia Britannica'', 2007.</ref>

The [[Higgs mechanism]] postulates the existence of the Higgs field which confers mass on quarks and leptons.<ref>{{Cite journal | last1 = Rajasekaran | first1 = G. | title = Standard model, Higgs Boson and what next? | doi = 10.1007/s12045-012-0110-z | journal = Resonance | volume = 17 | issue = 10 | pages = 956–973 | year = 2012 | s2cid = 119698340 }}</ref> However this causes only a tiny portion of the masses of other subatomic particles, such as protons and neutrons. In these, gluons that bind quarks together confer most of the particle mass.

The original basis of Higgs' work came from the Japanese-born theorist and Nobel Prize laureate [[Yoichiro Nambu]] from the [[University of Chicago]]. Professor Nambu had proposed a theory known as [[spontaneous symmetry breaking]] based on what was known to happen in [[superconductivity]] in condensed matter; however, the theory predicted massless particles (the [[Goldstone's theorem]]), a clearly incorrect prediction.<ref name = Edit/>

Higgs was reported to have developed the fundamentals of his theory after returning to his Edinburgh [[New Town, Edinburgh|New Town]] apartment from a failed weekend camping trip to the Highlands.<ref>Martin, Victoria (14 December 2011) [http://www.scotsman.com/news/victoria-martin-soon-we-ll-be-able-to-pinpoint-that-particle-1-2007674 Soon we'll be able to pinpoint that particle] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130414012702/http://www.scotsman.com/news/victoria-martin-soon-we-ll-be-able-to-pinpoint-that-particle-1-2007674 |date=14 April 2013 }} The Scotsman, Retrieved 10 January 2013</ref><ref>Collins, Nick (4 July 2012) [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/large-hadron-collider/9376804/Higgs-boson-Prof-Stephen-Hawking-loses-100-bet.html Higgs boson: Prof Stephen Hawking loses $100 bet] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141006035656/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/large-hadron-collider/9376804/Higgs-boson-Prof-Stephen-Hawking-loses-100-bet.html |date=6 October 2014 }} ''The Telegraph.'' London, Retrieved 10 January 2013</ref><ref>Staff (4 July 2012) [http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/scientists-discover-god-particle.1341391087?_=5cea478733fd836f7011cad7ebcab19ffc029d96 Scientists discover 'God' particle] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130603010151/http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/scientists-discover-god-particle.1341391087?_=5cea478733fd836f7011cad7ebcab19ffc029d96 |date=3 June 2013 }} ''The Herald.'' Glasgow, Retrieved 10 January 2013</ref> He stated that there was no "eureka moment" in the development of the theory.<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-17161657 | work=BBC News | title=Meeting the Boson Man: Professor Peter Higgs | date=24 February 2012 | access-date=20 June 2018 | archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160620095825/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-17161657 | archive-date=20 June 2016 | url-status=live }}</ref> He wrote a short paper exploiting a loophole in Goldstone's theorem (massless Goldstone particles need not occur when local symmetry is spontaneously broken in a relativistic theory<ref name = HiggsMechanism/>) and published it in ''[[Physics Letters]]'', a European physics journal edited at [[CERN]], in [[Switzerland]], in 1964.<ref>{{Cite journal | last1 = Higgs | first1 = P. W. | author-link = Peter Higgs| title = Broken symmetries, massless particles and gauge fields | doi = 10.1016/0031-9163(64)91136-9 | journal = Physics Letters | volume = 12 | issue = 2 | pages = 132–201 | year = 1964 |bibcode = 1964PhL....12..132H }}</ref>

Higgs wrote a second paper describing a theoretical model (now called the [[Higgs mechanism]]), but the paper was rejected (the editors of ''Physics Letters'' judged it "of no obvious relevance to physics").<ref name=Guardian/> Higgs wrote an extra paragraph and sent his paper to ''[[Physical Review Letters]]'', another leading physics journal, which published it later in 1964. This paper predicted a new massive spin-zero boson (now known as the [[Higgs boson]]).<ref name = HiggsMechanism>Staff (5 January 2012) [http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/higgs/brief-history Brief History of the Higgs Mechanism] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121112153436/http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/higgs/brief-history |date=12 November 2012 }} The Edinburgh University School of Physics and Astronomy, Retrieved 10 January 2013</ref><ref>{{Cite journal | last1 = Higgs | first1 = P. | author-link = Peter Higgs| title = Broken Symmetries and the Masses of Gauge Bosons | doi = 10.1103/PhysRevLett.13.508 | journal = Physical Review Letters | volume = 13 | issue = 16 | pages = 508–509 | year = 1964 |bibcode = 1964PhRvL..13..508H | doi-access = free }}</ref>
Other physicists, [[Robert Brout]] and [[François Englert]]<ref>{{Cite journal | last1 = Englert | first1 = F. | author-link1 =François Englert| last2 = Brout | first2 = R. | author-link2 = Robert Brout| doi = 10.1103/PhysRevLett.13.321 | title = Broken Symmetry and the Mass of Gauge Vector Mesons | journal = Physical Review Letters | volume = 13 | issue = 9 | pages = 321 | year = 1964 |bibcode = 1964PhRvL..13..321E | doi-access = free }}</ref> and [[Gerald Guralnik]], [[C. R. Hagen]] and [[Tom W. B. Kibble|Tom Kibble]]<ref>{{Cite journal | last1 = Guralnik | first1 = G. | author-link1 = Gerald Guralnik| last2 = Hagen | first2 = C. | author-link2 = C. R. Hagen| last3 = Kibble | first3 = T. | author-link3 = Tom W. B. Kibble| doi = 10.1103/PhysRevLett.13.585 | title = Global Conservation Laws and Massless Particles | journal = Physical Review Letters | volume = 13 | issue = 20 | pages = 585 | year = 1964 |bibcode = 1964PhRvL..13..585G | doi-access = free }}
</ref>
had reached similar conclusions at about the same time. In the published version Higgs quotes Brout and Englert and the third paper quotes the previous ones. The three papers written on this boson discovery by Higgs, Guralnik, Hagen, Kibble, Brout, and Englert were each recognised as milestone papers by ''[[Physical Review Letters]]'' 50th anniversary celebration.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://prl.aps.org/50years/milestones#1964 |title=Physical Review Letters – 50th Anniversary Milestone Papers |publisher=Prl.aps.org |access-date=5 July 2012 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20100110134128/http://prl.aps.org/50years/milestones#1964 |archive-date=10 January 2010 |url-status=live }}</ref> While each of these famous papers took similar approaches, the contributions and differences between the [[1964 PRL symmetry breaking papers]] are noteworthy. The mechanism had been proposed in 1962 by [[Philip Warren Anderson|Philip Anderson]] although he did not include a crucial relativistic model.<ref name = HiggsMechanism/><ref>{{Cite journal | last1 = Anderson | first1 = P. | doi = 10.1103/PhysRev.130.439 | title = Plasmons, Gauge Invariance, and Mass | journal = Physical Review | volume = 130 | issue = 1 | pages = 439–442 | year = 1963 |bibcode = 1963PhRv..130..439A }}</ref>

On 4 July 2012, CERN announced the [[ATLAS experiment|ATLAS]] and [[Compact Muon Solenoid|Compact Muon Solenoid (CMS)]] experiments had seen strong indications for the presence of a new particle, which could be the Higgs boson, in the mass region around 126 gigaelectronvolts ([[GeV]]).<ref>{{cite web
|url=http://home.web.cern.ch/about/updates/2012/07/higgs-within-reach
|title=Higgs within reach
|date=4 July 2012
|publisher=CERN
|access-date=6 July 2012
|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20121213103220/http://home.web.cern.ch/about/updates/2012/07/higgs-within-reach
|archive-date=13 December 2012
|url-status=live
}}</ref>
Speaking at the seminar in [[Geneva]], Higgs commented "It's really an incredible thing that it's happened in my lifetime."<ref name=BBC-04Jul12>{{Cite news|title=Higgs boson-like particle discovery claimed at LHC|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18702455|work=BBC|date=4 July 2012|access-date=20 June 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180731153930/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18702455|archive-date=31 July 2018|url-status=live}}</ref> Ironically, this probable confirmation of the Higgs boson was made at the same place where the editor of ''Physics Letters'' rejected Higgs' paper.<ref name = Edit/>

==Awards and honours==
Higgs had received numerous accolades including:

===Civic awards===
[[File:The Edinburgh Award (14598791818).jpg|thumb|Edinburgh Award handprints]]
Higgs was the recipient of the Edinburgh Award for 2011. He is the fifth person to receive the Award, which was established in 2007 by the [[City of Edinburgh Council]] to honour an outstanding individual who has made a positive impact on the city and gained national and international recognition for [[Edinburgh]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/671/civic_recognition-people/916/honours_and_civic_awards/3 |title=The Edinburgh Award |publisher=The City of Edinburgh Council |access-date=3 July 2012 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120729111115/http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/671/civic_recognition-people/916/honours_and_civic_awards/3 |archive-date=29 July 2012 }}</ref>

Higgs was presented with an engraved [[loving cup]] by [[George Grubb|the Rt Hon George Grubb]], [[Lord Provost of Edinburgh]], in a ceremony held at the City Chambers on Friday 24 February 2012. The event also marked the unveiling of his handprints in the City Chambers quadrangle, where they had been engraved in Caithness stone alongside those of previous Edinburgh Award recipients.<ref>{{cite news
|url=http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/809/acclaimed_physicist_presented_with_edinburgh_award
|title=Acclaimed physicist presented with Edinburgh Award
|publisher=The City of Edinburgh Council
|date=27 February 2012
|access-date=3 July 2012
|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120731140012/http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/809/acclaimed_physicist_presented_with_edinburgh_award
|archive-date=31 July 2012
|url-status=dead
}}</ref><ref name="Scotsman-25Feb12">{{cite news |date=25 February 2012 |title='They'll find the God particle by summer.' And Peter Higgs should know |url=http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/features/they-ll-find-the-god-particle-by-summer-and-peter-higgs-should-know-1-2138574 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120706001340/http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/features/they-ll-find-the-god-particle-by-summer-and-peter-higgs-should-know-1-2138574 |archive-date=6 July 2012 |access-date=3 July 2012 |newspaper=[[The Scotsman]]}}</ref><ref>{{cite news
|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17161692
|title=Higgs: Edinburgh Award is a great surprise
|publisher=BBC
|date=24 February 2012
|access-date=3 July 2012
|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120704182827/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17161692
|archive-date=4 July 2012
|url-status=live
}}</ref>

Higgs was awarded the Freedom of the City of [[Bristol]] in July 2013.<ref>{{Cite news |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-23177670 |title=Peter Higgs receives the freedom of the city of Bristol |work=BBC News |date=4 July 2013}}</ref> In April 2014, he was also awarded the Freedom of the City of Newcastle upon Tyne. He was also honoured with a brass plaque installed on the Newcastle Quayside as part of the Newcastle Gateshead Initiative Local Heroes Walk of Fame.<ref>{{cite news |last1=Henderson |first1=Tony |title=The Quayside 'Walk of Fame' is going to get some new names |url=https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/quayside-walk-fame-going-new-14160306 |access-date=9 April 2024 |publisher=The Chronicle |date=16 January 2018}}</ref>

===Higgs Centre for Theoretical Physics===
On 6 July 2012, [[Edinburgh University]] announced a new centre named after Professor Higgs to support future research in [[theoretical physics]]. The Higgs Centre for Theoretical Physics brings together scientists from around the world to seek "a deeper understanding of how the universe works".<ref>{{cite web |url=http://higgs.ph.ed.ac.uk |title=Higgs Centre for Theoretical Physics |publisher=The University of Edinburgh |access-date=17 November 2018 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181116191812/https://higgs.ph.ed.ac.uk/ |archive-date=16 November 2018 |url-status=live }}</ref> The centre is currently based within the [[James Clerk Maxwell|James Clerk Maxwell Building]], home of the University's [[University of Edinburgh School of Physics and Astronomy|School of Physics and Astronomy]] and the iGEM 2015 team (ClassAfiED). The university has also established a chair of theoretical physics in the name of Peter Higgs.<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jul/06/prof-higgs-nice-right-boson |title=Prof Higgs: nice to be right about boson |work=The Guardian |date=6 July 2012 |access-date=6 July 2012 |location=London |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131012024232/http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jul/06/prof-higgs-nice-right-boson |archive-date=12 October 2013 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.ed.ac.uk/news/all-news/higgscentre-050712 |title=University to support new physics research |publisher=The University of Edinburgh |date=6 July 2012 |access-date=6 July 2012 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120709021545/http://www.ed.ac.uk/news/all-news/higgscentre-050712 |archive-date=9 July 2012 |url-status=live }}</ref>

===Nobel Prize in Physics===
On 8 October 2013, it was announced that Higgs and [[François Englert]] would share the 2013 Nobel Prize in Physics "for the theoretical discovery of a mechanism that contributes to our understanding of the origin of mass of subatomic particles", and which recently was confirmed through the discovery of the predicted fundamental particle, by the ATLAS and CMS experiments at CERN's Large Hadron Collider".<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2013/press.pdf |title=Press release from Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences |date=8 October 2013 |access-date=8 October 2013 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131008193310/http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2013/press.pdf |archive-date=8 October 2013 |url-status=live }}</ref> Higgs admits he had gone out to avoid the media attention<ref>{{cite news |last1=Boucle |first1=Anna |title=The Life Scientific |url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vdx7m |access-date=20 April 2015 |publisher=BBC RADIO4 |date=18 February 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150523100957/http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vdx7m |archive-date=23 May 2015 |url-status=live }}</ref> so he was informed he had been awarded the prize by an ex-neighbour on his way home, since he did not have a mobile phone.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10372394/Peter-Higgs-was-told-about-Nobel-Prize-by-passing-motorist.html|title=Peter Higgs was told about Nobel Prize by passing motorist|access-date=3 April 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140715235308/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10372394/Peter-Higgs-was-told-about-Nobel-Prize-by-passing-motorist.html|archive-date=15 July 2014|url-status=dead}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24493400|title=Prof Peter Higgs did not know he had won Nobel Prize|date=11 October 2013|work=BBC News|access-date=20 June 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160528202708/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24493400|archive-date=28 May 2016|url-status=live}}</ref>

=== Member of the Order of the Companions of Honour ===
Higgs turned down a [[knighthood]] in 1999, but in 2012 he accepted membership of [[Companion of Honour|the Order of the Companions of Honour]].<ref>{{Cite news|url = http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/peter-higgs-turned-down-knighthood-from-tony-blair-1-3142826|title = Peter Higgs turned down knighthood from Tony Blair|date = 16 October 2013|work = The Scotsman|access-date = 12 May 2014|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20140512215159/http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/peter-higgs-turned-down-knighthood-from-tony-blair-1-3142826|archive-date = 12 May 2014|url-status = live}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|url = https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20855404|title = Peter Higgs: honour for physicist who proposed particle|date = 29 December 2012|access-date = 12 May 2014|work = BBC News|last = Rincon|first = Paul|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20130608081813/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20855404|archive-date = 8 June 2013|url-status = live}}</ref> He later said that he only accepted the order because he was wrongly assured that the award was the gift of the Queen alone. He also expressed cynicism towards the [[Honours system in the United Kingdom|honours system]], and the way the system "is used for political purposes by the government in power". The order confers no title or precedence, but recipients of the order are entitled to use the post-nominal letters {{small|CH}}''. ''In the same interview he also stated that when people ask what the {{small|CH}} after his name stands for, he replies "it means I'm an honorary Swiss."<ref name=":0">{{Cite news|url = https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/06/peter-higgs-interview-underlying-incompetence|title = Peter Higgs interview: 'I have this kind of underlying incompetence'|last = Aitkenhead|first = Decca|date = 6 December 2013|work = The Guardian|access-date = 12 May 2014|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20140520032412/http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/06/peter-higgs-interview-underlying-incompetence|archive-date = 20 May 2014|url-status = live}}</ref> He received the order from the Queen at an investiture at [[Holyrood House]] on 1 July 2014.<ref>{{cite news|last1=Press Association|title=Physicist Higgs honoured by Queen|url=http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/physicist-higgs-honoured-by-queen-1.449255|work=The Courier|date=1 July 2014|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140714201209/http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/physicist-higgs-honoured-by-queen-1.449255|archive-date=14 July 2014}}</ref>

===Honorary degrees===

Higgs was awarded honorary degrees from the following institutions:
{{div col|colwidth=35em}}
* DSc [[University of Bristol]] 1997<ref name="cv">{{cite web|title=Peter Higgs: Curriculum Vitae|url=http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/higgs/peter-higgs|website=[[University of Edinburgh]]|access-date=8 October 2016|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131014121815/http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/higgs/peter-higgs|archive-date=14 October 2013|url-status=live}}</ref>
* DSc [[University of Edinburgh]] 1998<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[University of Glasgow]] 2002<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[Swansea University]] 2008<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[King's College London]] 2009<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[University College London]] 2010<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[University of Cambridge]] 2012<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[Heriot-Watt University]] 2012<ref name="cv"/>
* PhD [[International School for Advanced Studies|SISSA, Trieste]] 2013<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[University of Durham]] 2013<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[University of Manchester]] 2013<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[University of St Andrews]] 2014<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[Université libre de Bruxelles|Free University of Brussels]] (ULB) 2014<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill]] 2015<ref name="cv"/>
* DSc [[Queen's University Belfast]] 2015<ref name="cv"/>
* ScD [[Trinity College Dublin]] 2016<ref name="cv"/>
{{div col end}}

A portrait of Higgs was painted by [[Ken Currie]] in 2008.<ref name=tait-portrait>{{cite web|url=http://www.tait.ac.uk/Peter_Higgs_by_Ken_Currie.html|title=Portrait of Peter Higgs by Ken Currie, 2010|work=The Tait Institute|access-date=28 April 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120323094144/http://www.tait.ac.uk/Peter_Higgs_by_Ken_Currie.html|archive-date=23 March 2012|url-status=live}}</ref> Commissioned by the University of Edinburgh,<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5835305.ece|title=Portrait of a man at beginning of time |first=Mike |last=Wade|work=The Times |access-date=28 April 2011 |location=London}}{{subscription required}}</ref> it was unveiled on 3 April 2009<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.ed.ac.uk/news/all-news/higgs-portait-030309|title=Great minds meet at portrait unveiling|work=The University of Edinburgh|access-date=28 April 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110706062603/http://www.ed.ac.uk/news/all-news/higgs-portait-030309|archive-date=6 July 2011|url-status=live}}</ref> and hangs in the entrance of the [[James Clerk Maxwell]] Building of the [[University of Edinburgh School of Physics and Astronomy|School of Physics and Astronomy]] and the [[University of Edinburgh School of Mathematics|School of Mathematics]].<ref name=tait-portrait/> A large portrait by Lucinda Mackay is in the collection of the [[Scottish National Portrait Gallery]] in Edinburgh. Another portrait of Higgs by the same artist hangs in the birthplace of James Clerk Maxwell in Edinburgh, Higgs is the Honorary Patron of the [[James Clerk Maxwell Foundation]]. A portrait by [[Victoria Crowe]] was commissioned by the Royal Society of Edinburgh and unveiled in 2013.<ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-22912483|title=Prof Peter Higgs: New portrait of boson particle physicist|work=BBC|access-date=4 September 2018|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181023181054/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-22912483|archive-date=23 October 2018|url-status=live}}</ref>

==Personal life and political views==
Higgs married Jody Williamson, a fellow activist with the [[Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament]] (CND) in 1963. Their first son was born in August 1965.<ref>{{cite book|last1=Baggot|first1=Jim|title=Higgs The invention and discovery of the 'God Particle'|date=2012|publisher=Oxford University Press|location=Fountaindale Public Library|isbn=978-0-19-960349-7|pages=90–91|edition=First}}</ref> Higgs had two sons: Christopher, a computer scientist, and Jonny, a jazz musician.<ref name=NS/> He also had two grandchildren.<ref name=Scotsman-25Feb12/> Higgs and Williamson divorced in 1972, but remained friends until her death in 2008.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Close |first=Frank |date=2024-04-09 |title=Peter Higgs obituary |url=https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/apr/09/peter-higgs-obituary |access-date=2024-04-09 |work=The Guardian |language=en-GB |issn=0261-3077}}</ref>

Higgs was an activist in the CND while in London and later in Edinburgh, but resigned his membership when the group extended its remit from campaigning against nuclear weapons to campaigning against nuclear power too.<ref name=Guardian/><ref name=Telegraph>{{cite news |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3338770/Prof-Peter-Higgs-profile.html |title=Prof Peter Higgs profile |first=Roger |last=Highfield |work=The Telegraph |access-date=16 May 2011 |location=London |date=7 April 2008 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131015234155/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3338770/Prof-Peter-Higgs-profile.html |archive-date=15 October 2013 }}</ref> He was a [[Greenpeace]] member until the group opposed [[genetically modified organism]]s.<ref name=Telegraph/>

Higgs was awarded the 2004 [[Wolf Prize in Physics]] (sharing it with [[Robert Brout]] and [[François Englert]]), but he declined to attend the awards ceremony in [[Jerusalem]] out of protest towards [[Israel]]'s treatment of [[Palestinians]].<ref name=Indie-heart>{{cite news |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-heart-of-the-matter-54071.html |title=The heart of the matter |first=Peter |last=Rodgers |work=The Independent |access-date=16 May 2011 |location=London |date=1 September 2004 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131216044344/http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-heart-of-the-matter-54071.html |archive-date=16 December 2013 |url-status=live }}</ref>

Higgs was actively involved in the Edinburgh University branch of the [[Association of University Teachers]], through which he agitated for greater staff involvement in the management of the physics department.<ref name=":0" />

Higgs was an [[Atheism|atheist]].<ref>{{cite news|title=The god of small things|url=https://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/nov/17/sciencenews.particlephysics|newspaper=The Guardian|access-date=21 March 2013|first=Ian|last=Sample|date=17 November 2007|quote=The name has stuck, but makes Higgs wince and raises the hackles of other theorists. "I wish he hadn't done it," he says. "I have to explain to people it was a joke. I'm an atheist, but I have an uneasy feeling that playing around with names like that could be unnecessarily offensive to people who are religious."|location=London|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131001003347/http://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/nov/17/sciencenews.particlephysics|archive-date=1 October 2013|url-status=live}}</ref> He described [[Richard Dawkins]] as having adopted a "[[fundamentalist]]" view of non-atheists.<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/9770707/Has-Richard-Dawkins-found-a-worthy-opponent-at-last.html | location=London | work=The Daily Telegraph | first=Nigel | last=Farndale | title=Has Richard Dawkins found a worthy opponent at last? | date=29 December 2012 | access-date=10 May 2019 | archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190510014950/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/9770707/Has-Richard-Dawkins-found-a-worthy-opponent-at-last.html | archive-date=10 May 2019 | url-status=live }}</ref> Higgs expressed displeasure with the nickname the "God particle".<ref>[https://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSL0765287220080407?sp=true Key scientist sure "God particle" will be found soon] Reuters news story. 7 April 2008.</ref> Although it has been reported that he believed the term "might offend people who are religious",<ref name=NS>"[https://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/mg19926732.100-interview-the-man-behind-the-god-particle.html Interview: the man behind the 'God particle']", [[New Scientist]] 13 September 2008, pp. 44–45 {{subscription required}} {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080913214154/http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/mg19926732.100-interview-the-man-behind-the-god-particle.html |date=13 September 2008 }}</ref> Higgs stated that this is not the case, lamenting the letters he has received which claim the God particle was predicted in the [[Torah]], the [[Quran|Qur'an]] and [[Buddhist texts|Buddhist scriptures]]. In a 2013 interview with [[Decca Aitkenhead]], Higgs was quoted as saying:<ref>{{Cite web |last=Aitkenhead |first=Decca |date=2013-12-06 |title=Peter Higgs interview: 'I have this kind of underlying incompetence' |url=http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/06/peter-higgs-interview-underlying-incompetence |access-date=2022-05-26 |website=the Guardian |language=en}}</ref>

{{Blockquote|text=I'm not a believer. Some people get confused between the science and the theology. They claim that what happened at Cern proves the existence of God. The church in Spain has also been guilty of using that name as evidence for what they want to prove. [It] reinforces confused thinking in the heads of people who are already thinking in a confused way. If they believe that story about creation in seven days, are they being intelligent?|author=|title=''[[The Guardian]]''|source=6 December 2013}}

Usually this nickname for the Higgs boson is attributed to [[Leon Lederman]], the author of the book ''[[The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question?]]'', but the name is the result of the suggestion of Lederman's publisher: Lederman had originally intended to refer to it as the "goddamn particle".<ref>{{Cite news |work=The Guardian |title=Father of the 'God Particle' |url=https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jun/30/higgs.boson.cern |date=30 June 2008 |first=James |last=Randerson |location=London |access-date=16 December 2016 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20161201180117/https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jun/30/higgs.boson.cern |archive-date=1 December 2016 |url-status=live }}</ref>

Higgs died after a short illness at home in Edinburgh on 8 April 2024, at the age of 94.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Carrell |first=Severin |last2= |first2= |date=2024-04-09 |title=Peter Higgs, physicist who discovered Higgs boson, dies aged 94 |url=https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/apr/09/peter-higgs-physicist-who-discovered-higgs-boson-dies-aged-94 |access-date=2024-04-09 |work=The Guardian |language=en-GB |issn=0261-3077}}</ref>

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==Further reading==
* {{cite book | last=Close | first=Frank | title=Elusive: How Peter Higgs Solved the Mystery of Mass | publisher=Penguin Press | date=2023-07-06 | isbn=978-0-14-199758-2}}

==External links==
{{Sister project links|voy=no|wikt=no|commons=Category:Peter Higgs|b=no|n=no|q=Peter Higgs|s=no|v=no|species=no}}
* {{Official website}}
* [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=author%3APW+author%3AHiggs&btnG=Search Google Scholar] List of Papers by PW Higgs
* [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16222710 BBC profile of Peter Higgs]
* [https://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/nov/17/sciencenews.particlephysics The god of small things] – An interview with Peter Higgs in The Guardian
* [https://web.archive.org/web/20120123020012/http://pauli.physics.lsa.umich.edu/w/arch/som/sto2001/Higgs/real/ My Life as a Boson] – A Lecture by Peter Higgs available in various formats
* [http://prl.aps.org/50years/milestones#1964 Physical Review Letters – 50th Anniversary Milestone Papers]
* [http://cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/32522 In CERN Courier, Steven Weinberg reflects on spontaneous symmetry breaking]
* [http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/11353 Physics World, Introducing the little Higgs] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100117124900/http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/11353 |date=17 January 2010 }}
* [http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Englert-Brout-Higgs-Guralnik-Hagen-Kibble_mechanism Englert-Brout-Higgs-Guralnik-Hagen-Kibble Mechanism on Scholarpedia]
* [http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Englert-Brout-Higgs-Guralnik-Hagen-Kibble_mechanism_%28history%29 History of Englert-Brout-Higgs-Guralnik-Hagen-Kibble Mechanism on Scholarpedia]
* [https://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BDA16F52CA3C9B1D Sakurai Prize Videos]
* [http://metode.cat/en/Issues/Interview/Peter-Higgs «I wish they hadn't dubbed it "The God Particle"» Interview with Peter Higgs]
* [https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/06/peter-higgs-boson-academic-system Peter Higgs: I wouldn't be productive enough for today's academic system]
* {{Nobelprize}} including the Nobel Lecture on 8 December 2013 "Evading the Goldstone Theorem"

{{s-start}}
{{s-ach|aw}}
{{s-bef|before=[[Serge Haroche]]|before2=[[David J. Wineland]]}}
{{s-ttl|title=[[Nobel Prize in Physics]] laureate|with=[[François Englert]]|years=2013}}
{{s-aft|after=[[Isamu Akasaki]]|after2=[[Hiroshi Amano]]|after3=[[Shuji Nakamura]]}}
{{s-end}}
{{2013 Nobel Prize winners}}
{{Nobel Prize in Physics Laureates 2001–2025|state=collapsed}}
{{Wolf Prize in Physics}}
{{Copley Medallists 2001–2050}}
{{FRS 1983}}
{{Prince of Asturias Award for Technical and Scientific Research}}
{{Authority control}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Higgs, Peter}}
[[Category:1929 births]]
[[Category:2024 deaths]]
[[Category:Academics of University College London]]
[[Category:Academics of the University of Edinburgh]]
[[Category:Alumni of the University of London]]
[[Category:Alumni of King's College London]]
[[Category:British Nobel laureates]]
[[Category:British theoretical physicists]]
[[Category:English atheists]]
[[Category:English Nobel laureates]]
[[Category:English physicists]]
[[Category:English people of Scottish descent]]
[[Category:Fellows of King's College London]]
[[Category:Fellows of the Institute of Physics]]
[[Category:Fellows of the Royal Society]]
[[Category:Fellows of the Royal Society of Edinburgh]]
[[Category:Nobel laureates in Physics]]
[[Category:Particle physicists]]
[[Category:People educated at the City of London School]]
[[Category:People from Wallsend]]
[[Category:Wolf Prize in Physics laureates]]
[[Category:Members of the Order of the Companions of Honour]]
[[Category:J. J. Sakurai Prize for Theoretical Particle Physics recipients]]
[[Category:Recipients of the Copley Medal]]
[[Category:20th-century atheists]]
[[Category:21st-century atheists]]

Isaac Saul

2024-03-17T18:54:11Z

Mover of molehills: Fixed website

{{short description|American journalist}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=January 2024}}
{{Infobox person
| name = Isaac Saul
| image = Isaac Saul 2.png
| caption = Saul in 2021
| birth_place = [[Trenton, New Jersey]], U.S.
| education = [[Pennsbury High School]]
| alma_mater = [[University of Pittsburgh]]
| occupation = Journalist
| website = {{URL|http://www.readtangle.com/}}
}}

'''Isaac M. Saul''' ({{IPAc-en|s|ɔː|l}}) is an American journalist. His work has appeared in publications including [[CNN]], ''[[The Huffington Post]]'', [[Time (magazine)|''TIME'' Magazine]],<ref>{{Cite magazine|title=YOLK Solar Cow: The 100 Best Inventions of 2019|url=https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|access-date=January 14, 2021|magazine=Time|language=en-us|archive-date=November 29, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129015117/https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|url-status=live}}</ref> the ''[[Independent Journal Review]]''<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul, Author at IJR|url=https://ijr.org/author/isaacsaul/|access-date=January 14, 2021|website=IJR|language=en-US|archive-date=March 27, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327173834/https://ijr.com/author/isaacsaul/|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Daily Mail|''The Daily Mail'']].<ref name=":3" /> Outside of his work with newspapers, in 2020 he founded ''Tangle'', an online newsletter which aims to give nonpartisan coverage of current events.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Brother |first=Nate |date=December 6, 2023 |title=Transylvania Hosts Journalist Isaac Saul in Creative Intelligence Series. |url=https://transyrambler.com/2023/12/06/transylvania-hosts-journalist-isaac-saul-in-creative-intelligence-series/ |access-date=December 8, 2023 |website=The Rambler |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Early life and education ==
Saul was born in [[Trenton, New Jersey]]. He first became interested in journalism during his time at [[Pennsbury High School]] in Pennsylvania, and got his first job in news while he was an undergraduate student in nonfiction writing at the [[University of Pittsburgh]].<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |title=Isaac Saul |url=http://www.isaacsaul.com/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115211129/http://www.isaacsaul.com/ |archive-date=January 15, 2021 |access-date=January 13, 2021 |website=Isaac Saul |language=en}}</ref>

== Career ==
Saul later began work at ''[[HuffPost|The Huffington Post]]'', which he left in 2014, and later worked for [[A Plus (website)|''A Plus'']].<ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=''Tangle'' founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |website=Axios}}</ref> During the course of his career as a reporter, Saul has covered issues mainly related to [[Politics of the United States|American politics]]<ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=September 28, 2016|title=I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=January 21, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232844/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[sport]]s.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=January 20, 2014|title=What Richard Sherman Taught Us About America|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=February 18, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210218063909/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|url-status=live}}</ref> His reporting on an encounter that he had with a controversial lawyer named Aaron Schlossberg was featured in a live broadcast on CNN in 2018.<ref>{{Citation|title=Reporter describes encounter with NYC lawyer - CNN Video|date=May 18, 2018 |url=https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|access-date=January 13, 2021|archive-date=January 24, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210124010837/https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also worked as an opinion editor for several major magazines and published several editorials stating his opinions on specific political candidates.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref> Other topics he has covered include religion.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Van den Terrell |first=Emma |date=2015 |title=Agnost-a-What? |url=https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |journal=Society |volume=52 |issue=3 |pages=201–202 |doi=10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |s2cid=255515099 |via=[[EBSCOHost]]}}</ref>

Saul's work in reporting drew particular praise during the [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|challenges to the 2020 US presidential election]], when he helped to discredit some of the [[Conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]] and allegations of [[Electoral fraud|voter fraud]] around the election. As part of this effort, he published a running thread of [[Twitter|tweets]] in which he challenged his readers to find an instance of alleged voter fraud that he could not disprove, a project which received external media coverage.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=November 13, 2020 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref> Saul publicly condemned a number of the fraud claims that he had to respond to, saying that "new lies just kept pouring in", and expressed concern that some of the conspiracy theories were wrongly accusing [[poll workers]] of committing election fraud, which could put the lives of these workers in danger.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Fisher |first=Anthony L. |title=Voter-fraud debunking journalist Isaac Saul talks about his viral election thread and why the conspiracy theories put poll workers in danger |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/voter-fraud-debunked-isaac-saul-viral-election-thread-conspiracy-theories-2020-11 |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=Business Insider |language=en-US}}</ref> In the end, he had challenged over 32 different conspiracy theories within the first week after the election results were announced.<ref>{{Cite web|date=November 15, 2020|title=32 Republican 'Election Fraud' Claims, Debunked by Isaac Saul|url=https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|access-date=March 27, 2021|website=TrumpFile.org|language=en-US|archive-date=December 2, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201202192105/https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|url-status=live}}</ref>

Also in conjunction with the 2020 election, Saul drew coverage for betting $15,000 with a friend that [[Joe Biden]] would be inaugurated as president, a bet which he won.<ref>{{Cite web|title=STF Special: Betting $15,000 In Gold On The Future Of The Republic|url=https://www.spreaker.com/user/ultiworld/stf-interview-with-ike-saul|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=Spreaker|language=en}}</ref>

== ''Tangle'' ==
In July 2020 Saul began a politics newsletter called ''The Shuffle'' which was later renamed to ''Tangle''.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=Two years (!!!) of ''Tangle''...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/two-years-of-tangle|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.readtangle.com|date=July 29, 2021 }}</ref> The newsletter continued to expand in readership over the coming months, eventually becoming read in as many as thirty countries.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/isaac-saul/|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=Forbes|language=en}}</ref> On April 19, 2021, Saul announced that he had quit his job as a newspaper editor to work on ''Tangle'' full-time.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=So, I quit my job today...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/quit-my-job-today|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.readtangle.com|date=April 19, 2021 }}</ref> ''Tangle'' has received substantial media coverage focused on the success of its subscriber-based model<ref name="Academy">{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=October 11, 2023 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref> and its efficacy in bridging political divisions.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=May 30, 2022 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=November 17, 2023}}</ref> In 2023, the first live ''Tangle'' event, on the state of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], was hosted in Philadelphia.<ref name=":4" /> As of October 2023, ''Tangle'' is believed to have more than 65,000 subscribers, generating more than $600,000 of revenue per year.<ref name="Academy" />

== Recognition ==
In 2016, [[Yahoo! News]] named Saul as one of the 16 people who had had the greatest influence on the [[2016 United States elections|2016 US election.]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=16 people who shaped the 2016 election: Isaac Saul|url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=www.yahoo.com|date=October 17, 2016 |language=en-US|archive-date=September 19, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919085147/https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|url-status=live}}</ref> He also made the ''[[Forbes]]'' "Next 1000" list of "upstart entrepreneurs redefining the American dream".<ref>{{Cite web|title=Forbes Next 1000 2021|url=https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|access-date=March 27, 2021|website=Forbes|archive-date=March 27, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327062454/https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|url-status=live}}</ref>

== Personal life ==
Outside of his work, Saul is a competitive [[ultimate frisbee]] player. He won multiple Pennsylvania state championships while playing for his Pennsbury High School team, he won two national championships with the University of Pittsburgh team, and he won a national championship with the Pride of New York (PoNY) club team in New York City.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Pollock|first1=Simon|date=October 23, 2018|title=PoNY Dismantles Revolver To Win National Title|url=https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|access-date=January 14, 2021|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=February 9, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210209210526/https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also played for the [[New York City | New York]] Rumble.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Charlie Eisenhood in News with 6|date=June 9, 2014|title=NY Rumble's Isaac Saul To Join AUDL's Empire After MLU Season|url=https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=January 15, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115094040/https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|url-status=live}}</ref> Saul has additionally traveled around the world for his work, and spent five months studying in a [[yeshiva]] while living in [[Jerusalem]] after college.<ref name=":1" />

== References ==
{{reflist}}

== External links ==
* [http://isaacsaul.com Saul's personal website]
* [http://readtangle.com ''Tangle'' official site]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Saul, Isaac}}
[[Category:1991 births]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:American journalists]]
[[Category:University of Pittsburgh alumni]]
[[Category:Pennsbury High School alumni]]
[[Category:People from Trenton, New Jersey]]
[[Category:Voter suppression]]

Isaac Saul

2024-03-17T16:16:32Z

Mover of molehills: Fixed image link

{{short description|American journalist}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=January 2024}}
{{Infobox person
| name = Isaac Saul
| image = Isaac Saul 2.png
| caption = Saul in 2021
| birth_place = [[Trenton, New Jersey]], U.S.
| education = [[Pennsbury High School]]
| alma_mater = [[University of Pittsburgh]]
| occupation = Journalist
| website = {{URL|http://www.isaacsaul.com/}}
}}

'''Isaac M. Saul''' ({{IPAc-en|s|ɔː|l}}) is an American journalist. His work has appeared in publications including [[CNN]], ''[[The Huffington Post]]'', [[Time (magazine)|''TIME'' Magazine]],<ref>{{Cite magazine|title=YOLK Solar Cow: The 100 Best Inventions of 2019|url=https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|access-date=January 14, 2021|magazine=Time|language=en-us|archive-date=November 29, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129015117/https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|url-status=live}}</ref> the ''[[Independent Journal Review]]''<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul, Author at IJR|url=https://ijr.org/author/isaacsaul/|access-date=January 14, 2021|website=IJR|language=en-US|archive-date=March 27, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327173834/https://ijr.com/author/isaacsaul/|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Daily Mail|''The Daily Mail'']].<ref name=":3" /> Outside of his work with newspapers, in 2020 he founded ''Tangle'', an online newsletter which aims to give nonpartisan coverage of current events.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Brother |first=Nate |date=December 6, 2023 |title=Transylvania Hosts Journalist Isaac Saul in Creative Intelligence Series. |url=https://transyrambler.com/2023/12/06/transylvania-hosts-journalist-isaac-saul-in-creative-intelligence-series/ |access-date=December 8, 2023 |website=The Rambler |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Early life and education ==
Saul was born in [[Trenton, New Jersey]]. He first became interested in journalism during his time at [[Pennsbury High School]] in Pennsylvania, and got his first job in news while he was an undergraduate student in nonfiction writing at the [[University of Pittsburgh]].<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |title=Isaac Saul |url=http://www.isaacsaul.com/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115211129/http://www.isaacsaul.com/ |archive-date=January 15, 2021 |access-date=January 13, 2021 |website=Isaac Saul |language=en}}</ref>

== Career ==
Saul later began work at ''[[HuffPost|The Huffington Post]]'', which he left in 2014, and later worked for [[A Plus (website)|''A Plus'']].<ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=''Tangle'' founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |website=Axios}}</ref> During the course of his career as a reporter, Saul has covered issues mainly related to [[Politics of the United States|American politics]]<ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=September 28, 2016|title=I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=January 21, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232844/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[sport]]s.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=January 20, 2014|title=What Richard Sherman Taught Us About America|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=February 18, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210218063909/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|url-status=live}}</ref> His reporting on an encounter that he had with a controversial lawyer named Aaron Schlossberg was featured in a live broadcast on CNN in 2018.<ref>{{Citation|title=Reporter describes encounter with NYC lawyer - CNN Video|date=May 18, 2018 |url=https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|access-date=January 13, 2021|archive-date=January 24, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210124010837/https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also worked as an opinion editor for several major magazines and published several editorials stating his opinions on specific political candidates.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref> Other topics he has covered include religion.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Van den Terrell |first=Emma |date=2015 |title=Agnost-a-What? |url=https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |journal=Society |volume=52 |issue=3 |pages=201–202 |doi=10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |s2cid=255515099 |via=[[EBSCOHost]]}}</ref>

Saul's work in reporting drew particular praise during the [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|challenges to the 2020 US presidential election]], when he helped to discredit some of the [[Conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]] and allegations of [[Electoral fraud|voter fraud]] around the election. As part of this effort, he published a running thread of [[Twitter|tweets]] in which he challenged his readers to find an instance of alleged voter fraud that he could not disprove, a project which received external media coverage.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=November 13, 2020 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref> Saul publicly condemned a number of the fraud claims that he had to respond to, saying that "new lies just kept pouring in", and expressed concern that some of the conspiracy theories were wrongly accusing [[poll workers]] of committing election fraud, which could put the lives of these workers in danger.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Fisher |first=Anthony L. |title=Voter-fraud debunking journalist Isaac Saul talks about his viral election thread and why the conspiracy theories put poll workers in danger |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/voter-fraud-debunked-isaac-saul-viral-election-thread-conspiracy-theories-2020-11 |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=Business Insider |language=en-US}}</ref> In the end, he had challenged over 32 different conspiracy theories within the first week after the election results were announced.<ref>{{Cite web|date=November 15, 2020|title=32 Republican 'Election Fraud' Claims, Debunked by Isaac Saul|url=https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|access-date=March 27, 2021|website=TrumpFile.org|language=en-US|archive-date=December 2, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201202192105/https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|url-status=live}}</ref>

Also in conjunction with the 2020 election, Saul drew coverage for betting $15,000 with a friend that [[Joe Biden]] would be inaugurated as president, a bet which he won.<ref>{{Cite web|title=STF Special: Betting $15,000 In Gold On The Future Of The Republic|url=https://www.spreaker.com/user/ultiworld/stf-interview-with-ike-saul|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=Spreaker|language=en}}</ref>

== ''Tangle'' ==
In July 2020 Saul began a politics newsletter called ''The Shuffle'' which was later renamed to ''Tangle''.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=Two years (!!!) of ''Tangle''...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/two-years-of-tangle|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.readtangle.com|date=July 29, 2021 }}</ref> The newsletter continued to expand in readership over the coming months, eventually becoming read in as many as thirty countries.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/isaac-saul/|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=Forbes|language=en}}</ref> On April 19, 2021, Saul announced that he had quit his job as a newspaper editor to work on ''Tangle'' full-time.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=So, I quit my job today...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/quit-my-job-today|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.readtangle.com|date=April 19, 2021 }}</ref> ''Tangle'' has received substantial media coverage focused on the success of its subscriber-based model<ref name="Academy">{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=October 11, 2023 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref> and its efficacy in bridging political divisions.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=May 30, 2022 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=November 17, 2023}}</ref> In 2023, the first live ''Tangle'' event, on the state of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], was hosted in Philadelphia.<ref name=":4" /> As of October 2023, ''Tangle'' is believed to have more than 65,000 subscribers, generating more than $600,000 of revenue per year.<ref name="Academy" />

== Recognition ==
In 2016, [[Yahoo! News]] named Saul as one of the 16 people who had had the greatest influence on the [[2016 United States elections|2016 US election.]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=16 people who shaped the 2016 election: Isaac Saul|url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=www.yahoo.com|date=October 17, 2016 |language=en-US|archive-date=September 19, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919085147/https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|url-status=live}}</ref> He also made the ''[[Forbes]]'' "Next 1000" list of "upstart entrepreneurs redefining the American dream".<ref>{{Cite web|title=Forbes Next 1000 2021|url=https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|access-date=March 27, 2021|website=Forbes|archive-date=March 27, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327062454/https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|url-status=live}}</ref>

== Personal life ==
Outside of his work, Saul is a competitive [[ultimate frisbee]] player. He won multiple Pennsylvania state championships while playing for his Pennsbury High School team, he won two national championships with the University of Pittsburgh team, and he won a national championship with the Pride of New York (PoNY) club team in New York City.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Pollock|first1=Simon|date=October 23, 2018|title=PoNY Dismantles Revolver To Win National Title|url=https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|access-date=January 14, 2021|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=February 9, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210209210526/https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also played for the [[New York City | New York]] Rumble.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Charlie Eisenhood in News with 6|date=June 9, 2014|title=NY Rumble's Isaac Saul To Join AUDL's Empire After MLU Season|url=https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=January 15, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115094040/https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|url-status=live}}</ref> Saul has additionally traveled around the world for his work, and spent five months studying in a [[yeshiva]] while living in [[Jerusalem]] after college.<ref name=":1" />

== References ==
{{reflist}}

== External links ==
* [http://isaacsaul.com Saul's personal website]
* [http://readtangle.com ''Tangle'' official site]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Saul, Isaac}}
[[Category:1991 births]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:American journalists]]
[[Category:University of Pittsburgh alumni]]
[[Category:Pennsbury High School alumni]]
[[Category:People from Trenton, New Jersey]]
[[Category:Voter suppression]]

Isaac Saul

2024-03-17T16:15:47Z

Mover of molehills: Changed image

{{short description|American journalist}}
{{Use mdy dates|date=January 2024}}
{{Infobox person
| name = Isaac Saul
| image = Isaac Saul 2.jpg
| caption = Saul in 2021
| birth_place = [[Trenton, New Jersey]], U.S.
| education = [[Pennsbury High School]]
| alma_mater = [[University of Pittsburgh]]
| occupation = Journalist
| website = {{URL|http://www.isaacsaul.com/}}
}}

'''Isaac M. Saul''' ({{IPAc-en|s|ɔː|l}}) is an American journalist. His work has appeared in publications including [[CNN]], ''[[The Huffington Post]]'', [[Time (magazine)|''TIME'' Magazine]],<ref>{{Cite magazine|title=YOLK Solar Cow: The 100 Best Inventions of 2019|url=https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|access-date=January 14, 2021|magazine=Time|language=en-us|archive-date=November 29, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129015117/https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|url-status=live}}</ref> the ''[[Independent Journal Review]]''<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul, Author at IJR|url=https://ijr.org/author/isaacsaul/|access-date=January 14, 2021|website=IJR|language=en-US|archive-date=March 27, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327173834/https://ijr.com/author/isaacsaul/|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Daily Mail|''The Daily Mail'']].<ref name=":3" /> Outside of his work with newspapers, in 2020 he founded ''Tangle'', an online newsletter which aims to give nonpartisan coverage of current events.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Brother |first=Nate |date=December 6, 2023 |title=Transylvania Hosts Journalist Isaac Saul in Creative Intelligence Series. |url=https://transyrambler.com/2023/12/06/transylvania-hosts-journalist-isaac-saul-in-creative-intelligence-series/ |access-date=December 8, 2023 |website=The Rambler |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Early life and education ==
Saul was born in [[Trenton, New Jersey]]. He first became interested in journalism during his time at [[Pennsbury High School]] in Pennsylvania, and got his first job in news while he was an undergraduate student in nonfiction writing at the [[University of Pittsburgh]].<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |title=Isaac Saul |url=http://www.isaacsaul.com/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115211129/http://www.isaacsaul.com/ |archive-date=January 15, 2021 |access-date=January 13, 2021 |website=Isaac Saul |language=en}}</ref>

== Career ==
Saul later began work at ''[[HuffPost|The Huffington Post]]'', which he left in 2014, and later worked for [[A Plus (website)|''A Plus'']].<ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=''Tangle'' founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |website=Axios}}</ref> During the course of his career as a reporter, Saul has covered issues mainly related to [[Politics of the United States|American politics]]<ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=September 28, 2016|title=I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=January 21, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232844/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[sport]]s.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=January 20, 2014|title=What Richard Sherman Taught Us About America|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=February 18, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210218063909/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|url-status=live}}</ref> His reporting on an encounter that he had with a controversial lawyer named Aaron Schlossberg was featured in a live broadcast on CNN in 2018.<ref>{{Citation|title=Reporter describes encounter with NYC lawyer - CNN Video|date=May 18, 2018 |url=https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|access-date=January 13, 2021|archive-date=January 24, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210124010837/https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also worked as an opinion editor for several major magazines and published several editorials stating his opinions on specific political candidates.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref> Other topics he has covered include religion.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Van den Terrell |first=Emma |date=2015 |title=Agnost-a-What? |url=https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |journal=Society |volume=52 |issue=3 |pages=201–202 |doi=10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |s2cid=255515099 |via=[[EBSCOHost]]}}</ref>

Saul's work in reporting drew particular praise during the [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|challenges to the 2020 US presidential election]], when he helped to discredit some of the [[Conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]] and allegations of [[Electoral fraud|voter fraud]] around the election. As part of this effort, he published a running thread of [[Twitter|tweets]] in which he challenged his readers to find an instance of alleged voter fraud that he could not disprove, a project which received external media coverage.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=November 13, 2020 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref> Saul publicly condemned a number of the fraud claims that he had to respond to, saying that "new lies just kept pouring in", and expressed concern that some of the conspiracy theories were wrongly accusing [[poll workers]] of committing election fraud, which could put the lives of these workers in danger.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Fisher |first=Anthony L. |title=Voter-fraud debunking journalist Isaac Saul talks about his viral election thread and why the conspiracy theories put poll workers in danger |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/voter-fraud-debunked-isaac-saul-viral-election-thread-conspiracy-theories-2020-11 |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=Business Insider |language=en-US}}</ref> In the end, he had challenged over 32 different conspiracy theories within the first week after the election results were announced.<ref>{{Cite web|date=November 15, 2020|title=32 Republican 'Election Fraud' Claims, Debunked by Isaac Saul|url=https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|access-date=March 27, 2021|website=TrumpFile.org|language=en-US|archive-date=December 2, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201202192105/https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|url-status=live}}</ref>

Also in conjunction with the 2020 election, Saul drew coverage for betting $15,000 with a friend that [[Joe Biden]] would be inaugurated as president, a bet which he won.<ref>{{Cite web|title=STF Special: Betting $15,000 In Gold On The Future Of The Republic|url=https://www.spreaker.com/user/ultiworld/stf-interview-with-ike-saul|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=Spreaker|language=en}}</ref>

== ''Tangle'' ==
In July 2020 Saul began a politics newsletter called ''The Shuffle'' which was later renamed to ''Tangle''.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=Two years (!!!) of ''Tangle''...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/two-years-of-tangle|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.readtangle.com|date=July 29, 2021 }}</ref> The newsletter continued to expand in readership over the coming months, eventually becoming read in as many as thirty countries.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/isaac-saul/|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=Forbes|language=en}}</ref> On April 19, 2021, Saul announced that he had quit his job as a newspaper editor to work on ''Tangle'' full-time.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=So, I quit my job today...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/quit-my-job-today|access-date=August 14, 2021|website=www.readtangle.com|date=April 19, 2021 }}</ref> ''Tangle'' has received substantial media coverage focused on the success of its subscriber-based model<ref name="Academy">{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=October 11, 2023 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=November 17, 2023 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref> and its efficacy in bridging political divisions.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=May 30, 2022 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=November 17, 2023}}</ref> In 2023, the first live ''Tangle'' event, on the state of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], was hosted in Philadelphia.<ref name=":4" /> As of October 2023, ''Tangle'' is believed to have more than 65,000 subscribers, generating more than $600,000 of revenue per year.<ref name="Academy" />

== Recognition ==
In 2016, [[Yahoo! News]] named Saul as one of the 16 people who had had the greatest influence on the [[2016 United States elections|2016 US election.]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=16 people who shaped the 2016 election: Isaac Saul|url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=www.yahoo.com|date=October 17, 2016 |language=en-US|archive-date=September 19, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919085147/https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|url-status=live}}</ref> He also made the ''[[Forbes]]'' "Next 1000" list of "upstart entrepreneurs redefining the American dream".<ref>{{Cite web|title=Forbes Next 1000 2021|url=https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|access-date=March 27, 2021|website=Forbes|archive-date=March 27, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327062454/https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|url-status=live}}</ref>

== Personal life ==
Outside of his work, Saul is a competitive [[ultimate frisbee]] player. He won multiple Pennsylvania state championships while playing for his Pennsbury High School team, he won two national championships with the University of Pittsburgh team, and he won a national championship with the Pride of New York (PoNY) club team in New York City.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Pollock|first1=Simon|date=October 23, 2018|title=PoNY Dismantles Revolver To Win National Title|url=https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|access-date=January 14, 2021|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=February 9, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210209210526/https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also played for the [[New York City | New York]] Rumble.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Charlie Eisenhood in News with 6|date=June 9, 2014|title=NY Rumble's Isaac Saul To Join AUDL's Empire After MLU Season|url=https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|access-date=January 13, 2021|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=January 15, 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115094040/https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|url-status=live}}</ref> Saul has additionally traveled around the world for his work, and spent five months studying in a [[yeshiva]] while living in [[Jerusalem]] after college.<ref name=":1" />

== References ==
{{reflist}}

== External links ==
* [http://isaacsaul.com Saul's personal website]
* [http://readtangle.com ''Tangle'' official site]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Saul, Isaac}}
[[Category:1991 births]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:American journalists]]
[[Category:University of Pittsburgh alumni]]
[[Category:Pennsbury High School alumni]]
[[Category:People from Trenton, New Jersey]]
[[Category:Voter suppression]]

Tangle News

2024-01-31T18:22:17Z

Mover of molehills: Created redirect

#REDIRECT [[Isaac Saul]]

Tangle

2024-01-31T18:20:56Z

Mover of molehills: /* Media */ Fixed bolding

{{wiktionary|tangle}}

'''Tangle''' may refer to:
== Science, Technology, Engineering & Mathematics ==
*''The Tangle'' is the name of the ledger, a directed acyclic graph, used for the [[IOTA (technology)#The_Tangle|cryptocurrency IOTA]]
*[[Tangle (mathematics)]], a topological object

== Natural sciences & medicine ==
*[[Sea tangle]], another name for kelp
*[[Neurofibrillary tangle]]s, which occur in Alzheimer's disease

== Music ==
*[[Tangle (album)|''Tangle'' (album)]], a 1989 album by Thinking Fellers Union Local 282
*[[Tangle (EP)|''Tangle'' (EP)]], a 2016 extended play by Trash Talk
*[[Tangles (album)|''Tangles'' (album)]], a 2005 album by S. J. Tucker

== Media ==
*[[tangle.com]], a Christian social networking site
*Tangle, a nonpartisan political newsletter created by journalist [[Isaac Saul]].

== Fiction ==
*[[Tangle (TV series)|''Tangle'' (TV series)]], an Australian television series
*Tangle, a character in ''[[The Golden Key (MacDonald book)|The Golden Key]]'' by George MacDonald
*''The Tangle'' is a 2019 sci-fi film by Christopher Soren Kelly.
*[[Tangle the Lemur]], a character from IDW Publishing comic series ''Sonic the Hedgehog''
*"Tangles", a Hugo Award-nominated story by [[Seanan McGuire]]

==See also==
* [[Tangled (disambiguation)]]
* [[Knot]]
* [[Rectangle]]
{{disambiguation}}

Tangle

2024-01-31T18:20:42Z

Mover of molehills: /* Social media */ De-orphaned my article

{{wiktionary|tangle}}

'''Tangle''' may refer to:
== Science, Technology, Engineering & Mathematics ==
*''The Tangle'' is the name of the ledger, a directed acyclic graph, used for the [[IOTA (technology)#The_Tangle|cryptocurrency IOTA]]
*[[Tangle (mathematics)]], a topological object

== Natural sciences & medicine ==
*[[Sea tangle]], another name for kelp
*[[Neurofibrillary tangle]]s, which occur in Alzheimer's disease

== Music ==
*[[Tangle (album)|''Tangle'' (album)]], a 1989 album by Thinking Fellers Union Local 282
*[[Tangle (EP)|''Tangle'' (EP)]], a 2016 extended play by Trash Talk
*[[Tangles (album)|''Tangles'' (album)]], a 2005 album by S. J. Tucker

== Media ==
*[[tangle.com]], a Christian social networking site
*'''Tangle''', a nonpartisan political newsletter created by journalist [[Isaac Saul]].

== Fiction ==
*[[Tangle (TV series)|''Tangle'' (TV series)]], an Australian television series
*Tangle, a character in ''[[The Golden Key (MacDonald book)|The Golden Key]]'' by George MacDonald
*''The Tangle'' is a 2019 sci-fi film by Christopher Soren Kelly.
*[[Tangle the Lemur]], a character from IDW Publishing comic series ''Sonic the Hedgehog''
*"Tangles", a Hugo Award-nominated story by [[Seanan McGuire]]

==See also==
* [[Tangled (disambiguation)]]
* [[Knot]]
* [[Rectangle]]
{{disambiguation}}

User:Mover of molehills

2024-01-25T00:18:10Z

Mover of molehills: Added my new DYK

[[File:Symbol question.svg|20px|link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Aging_of_the_United_States]]
[[File:Symbol question.svg|20px|link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Isaac_Saul_2]]
{{Reviewer topicon}}
{{Extendedconfirmed topicon}}
{{WikiOgre}}
{{trout me}}
{{Infobox Wikipedia user|image=Talpa europaea MHNT.jpg|image_caption=Me, ambling between tasks on Wikipedia}}
My "name" is '''Mover of molehills''', and I live in the U.S. state of [[Vermont]]. I've been editing Wikipedia since 2019. These days, my main hobby is GA reviewing, but I've done a bit of photography as well. I've also created several articles on a variety of topics, but my contributions are fairly sporadic. Feel free to leave any comments or discussions on my talk page!

==Articles I've created==
*{{icon|B}} [[Aging of the United States]]
*{{icon|START}} [[Centennial Woods]]

==Articles I've GA reviewed==
*{{icon|GA}} [[Peking Man]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Mariner 1]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Kererū]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Magnetoreception]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Jupiter]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Mandrill]]

==Barnstars==
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Vanstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Best, most thorough GA review I've ever gotten!. [[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 19:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
|}

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Reviewer Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[File:Barnstar-RTFM.png|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Reviewer Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for your detailed GA review of the [[Jupiter]] article. I think your feedback has definitely enhanced this former featured article, which is not an easy task. Good work! [[User:Praemonitus|Praemonitus]] ([[User talk:Praemonitus|talk]]) 13:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
|}

==Userboxes and Babel==
{{Babel|en|es-3|latex-3|ar-2}}
{{User WPAST}}
{{User save the whales}}

Clifford gates

2023-12-30T15:57:44Z

Mover of molehills: /* Building a universal set of quantum gates */ Added citation

{{Short description|Definition of quantum circuits}}

In [[quantum computing]] and [[quantum information theory]], the '''Clifford gates''' are the elements of the [[Clifford group]], a set of mathematical transformations which [[Centralizer_and_normalizer|normalize]] the ''n''-qubit [[Pauli group]], i.e., map tensor products of Pauli matrices to tensor products of Pauli matrices through [[Conjugacy_class|conjugation]]. The notion was introduced by [[Daniel Gottesman]] and is named after the mathematician [[William Kingdon Clifford]].<ref>{{Cite journal|last=Gottesman|first=Daniel|date=1998-01-01|title=Theory of fault-tolerant quantum computation|journal=[[Physical Review A]]|volume=57|issue=1|pages=127–137|doi=10.1103/physreva.57.127|arxiv=quant-ph/9702029|bibcode=1998PhRvA..57..127G|s2cid=8391036|issn=1050-2947|url=https://authors.library.caltech.edu/3850/1/GOTpra98.pdf}}</ref> [[Quantum circuit]]s that consist of only Clifford gates can be efficiently simulated with a classical computer due to the [[Gottesman–Knill theorem]].

The Clifford group is generated by three gates: [[Quantum_logic_gate#Hadamard gate|Hadamard]], phase gate [[Quantum_logic_gate#Phase_shift_gates|''S'']], and [[CNOT]].<ref>{{Cite book |last1=Nielsen |first1=Michael A. |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=j2ULnwEACAAJ |title=Quantum Computation and Quantum Information: 10th Anniversary Edition |last2=Chuang |first2=Isaac L. |date=2010-12-09 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1-107-00217-3 |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Gottesman |first=Daniel |date=1998-01-01 |title=Theory of fault-tolerant quantum computation |url=https://link.aps.org/doi/10.1103/PhysRevA.57.127 |journal=Physical Review A |language=en |volume=57 |issue=1 |pages=127–137 |doi=10.1103/PhysRevA.57.127 |arxiv=quant-ph/9702029 |bibcode=1998PhRvA..57..127G |s2cid=8391036 |issn=1050-2947}}</ref><ref>{{Cite thesis |last=Gottesman |first=Daniel |date=1997-05-28 |title=Stabilizer Codes and Quantum Error Correction |degree=PhD |publisher=Caltech |arxiv=quant-ph/9705052 |bibcode=1997PhDT.......232G }}</ref> This set of gates is minimal in the sense that discarding any one gate results in the inability to implement some Clifford operations; removing the Hadamard gate disallows powers of <math>{1}/{\sqrt{2}}</math> in the unitary matrix representation, removing the Phase gate disallows <math>i</math> in the unitary matrix, and removing the CNOT gate reduces the set of implementable operations from <math>\mathbf{C}_n</math> to <math>\mathbf{C}_1^n</math>. Since all Pauli matrices can be constructed from the phase and Hadamard gates, each Pauli gate is also trivially an element of the Clifford group.

The <math>Y</math> gate is equal to the product of <math>X</math> and <math>Z</math> gates. To show that a unitary <math>U</math> is a member of the Clifford group, it suffices to show that for all <math>P \in \mathbf{P}_n</math> that consist only of the tensor products of <math>X</math> and <math>Z</math>, we have <math>UPU^\dagger \in \mathbf{P}_n</math>.

== Common generating gates ==

=== Hadamard gate ===
The Hadamard gate

:<math> H = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \begin{bmatrix} 1 & 1 \\ 1 & -1 \end{bmatrix}</math>

is a member of the Clifford group as <math> HXH^\dagger = Z</math> and <math> HZH^\dagger = X</math>.

=== ''S'' gate ===
The Phase gate

:<math> S = \begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 \\ 0 & e^{i \frac{\pi}{2}} \end{bmatrix} = \begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 \\ 0 & i \end{bmatrix} = \sqrt{Z}</math>

is a Clifford gate as <math>SXS^\dagger = Y</math> and <math>SZS^\dagger = Z</math>.

=== CNOT gate ===
The CNOT gate applies to two qubits. It is a (C)ontrolled NOT gate, where a NOT gate is performed on qubit 2 if and only if qubit 1 is in the 1 state.

:<math> CNOT = \begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\
0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \end{bmatrix}. </math>

Between <math>X</math> and <math>Z</math> there are four options:
{| class="wikitable"
|+ CNOT Combinations
|-
! <math>P</math> !! CNOT <math>P</math> CNOT<math>^\dagger</math>
|-
| <math>X \otimes I </math> || <math>X \otimes X </math>
|-
| <math>I \otimes X </math> || <math>I \otimes X </math>
|-
| <math>Z \otimes I </math> || <math>Z \otimes I </math>
|-
| <math>I \otimes Z </math> || <math>Z \otimes Z </math>
|}

=== CZ gate ===
The CZ gate acts over two qubits. It is a (C)ontrolled Z gate, where effectively a Z gate is performed on qubit 2 if and only if qubit 1 is in the 1 state (it inverts the [[phase factor|phase]] of a quantum state if it is <math>|11\rangle</math>).
:<math> CZ = \begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\
0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & -1 \end{bmatrix}. </math>

=== SWAP gate ===
The SWAP gate swaps two qubits,
:<math> SWAP = \begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{bmatrix}. </math>

== Building a universal set of quantum gates ==
The Clifford gates do not form a [[Quantum_logic_gate#Universal_quantum_gates|universal set of quantum gates]] as some gates outside the Clifford group cannot be arbitrarily approximated with a finite set of operations. An example is the [[Quantum_logic_gate#Phase_shift_gates|phase shift gate]] (historically known as the <math>\pi /8</math> gate):

:<math> T = \begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 \\ 0 & e^{i \frac{\pi}{4}} \end{bmatrix} = \sqrt{S} = \sqrt[4]{Z}</math>.

The following shows that the <math>T</math> gate does not map the Pauli-<math>X</math> gate to another Pauli matrix:

:<math>TX{T^\dagger } = \left[ {\begin{array}{*{20}{c}}
1&0 \\
0&{{e^{i\frac{\pi }{4}}}}
\end{array}} \right]\left[ {\begin{array}{*{20}{c}}
0&1 \\
1&0
\end{array}} \right]\left[ {\begin{array}{*{20}{c}}
1&0 \\
0&{{e^{ - i\frac{\pi }{4}}}}
\end{array}} \right] = \left[ {\begin{array}{*{20}{c}}
0&{{e^{ - i\frac{\pi }{4}}}} \\
{{e^{i\frac{\pi }{4}}}}&0
\end{array}} \right]\not \in {{\mathbf{P}}_1}</math>

However, the Clifford group, when augmented with the <math>T</math> gate, forms a universal quantum gate set for quantum computation.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Forest |first=Simon |last2=Gosset |first2=David |last3=Kliuchnikov |first3=Vadym |last4=McKinnon |first4=David |title=Exact Synthesis of Single-Qubit Unitaries Over Clifford-Cyclotomic Gate Sets |journal=[[Journal of Mathematical Physics]]}}</ref> Moreover, exact, optimal circuit implementations of the single-qubit <math>Z</math>-angle rotations are known.<ref name="Ross">{{cite journal |last1=Ross |first1=Neil J. |last2=Selinger |first2=Peter |title=Optimal ancilla-free Clifford+ T approximation of z-rotations |arxiv=1403.2975 |year=2014}}</ref><ref name="Kliuchnikov">{{cite journal |last1=Kliuchnikov |first1=Vadym |last2=Maslov |first2=Dmitri |last3=Mosca |first3=Michele |title=Fast and efficient exact synthesis of single qubit unitaries generated by Clifford and T gates |journal=Quantum Information and Computation |volume=13 |number=7–8 |pages=607–630 |year=2013 |doi=10.26421/QIC13.7-8-4 |arxiv=1206.5236|s2cid=12885769 }}</ref>

== See also ==

* [[Magic state distillation]]
* [[Clifford algebra]]

== References ==
<references />

{{quantum computing}}

[[Category:Quantum gates]]

Talk:Isaac Saul

2023-12-20T15:26:31Z

Mover of molehills: This seems like a mistake...

{{Old AfD multi |date1=April 1, 2021 |result1='''delete''' |page1=Isaac Saul |date2=17 November 2023 |result2='''No consensus''' |page2=Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)}}

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)

2023-12-13T23:51:14Z

Mover of molehills: /* Isaac Saul */ Reply

===[[:Isaac Saul]]===
{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}}
<div class="other-afds" style="width:33%; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; background-color: #f8f9fa; color: black; margin: 0.5em 0 0.5em 1em; padding: 0.2em; float: right; clear: right; font-size: 88%; min-width:20em; max-width: 100%">AfDs for this article:
{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul}}
</div>
<noinclude>{{AFD help}}</noinclude>
:{{la|1=Isaac Saul}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 December 9#{{anchorencode:Isaac Saul}}|View log]]</noinclude> | [[Special:Diff/1185574703/cur|edits since nomination]])
:({{Find sources AFD|title=Isaac Saul}})
This article was previously deleted via a deletion discussion ([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul]]). Most of the sources provided on the pages are from before the previous discussion, which would indicate that Saul is still non-notable. However, a few sources have been published since the last discussion in 2021. As such, I wouldn't necessarily consider this eligible for CSD, but it's worth discussing whether Saul is now notable. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade (she/her)]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 20:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/People|list of People-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade (she/her)]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 20:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Sportspeople|Sportspeople]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Journalism|Journalism]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Politics|Politics]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/New Jersey|New Jersey]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/New York|New York]], and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Pennsylvania|Pennsylvania]]. '''[[User:Wcquidditch|WC''Quidditch'']]''' [[User talk:Wcquidditch|☎]] [[Special:Contribs/Wcquidditch|✎]] 20:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*:Thanks for tagging me. I'd like to emphasize some of the new sources I've added to this article between the first and second nomination: <ref>{{Cite web |last=Lexington |first=Transylvania University 300 North Broadway |last2=Fax: 859‐233‐8797 |first2=KY 40508 USA Phone: 859-233‐8300 |title=Creative Intelligence |url=https://www.transy.edu/calendar/creative-intelligence |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Transylvania University {{!}} Calendar of Events |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=2020-11-13 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref>,<ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=Tangle founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |url-status=live |website=Axios}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=2022-05-30 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=2023-11-17}}</ref>. I thought that these references were some of the strongest in the piece. We now have direct mentions from CNN, Axios, the Financial Times, Forbes, Yahoo! News, Business Insider, Salon, and NBC Universal (none of which are articles Saul published himself). Doesn't this put the article well over the standard three-reference limit?
{{reflist talk}}
::[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 21:36, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::So my position is obviously '''keep''', although I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment on my own article. [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 14:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] you're perfectly entitled take a position in the discussion. Regards, [[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 23:59, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
@[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] the guideline for notability of people is [[WP:BIO]], which asks for "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject", while [[WP:THREE]] suggests presenting three references to show that WP:BIO is met. I don't think the five sources you linked provide the required coverage
*Transylvania University: listing for a talk by Saul at TU, not independent coverage
*Salon.com: quote from Saul, not independent
*NBCU Academy: looks like a mini interview, so not independent
*axios.com: listing for a talk by Saul, not independent coverage
*Financial Times: quote from Saul, not independent
[[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 02:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' — sources should notability, particularly the ones in the "Recognition" section.
[[User:DaniloDaysOfOurLives|DaniloDaysOfOurLives]] ([[User talk:DaniloDaysOfOurLives|talk]]) 13:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. The relevant notability criteria here is: [[WP:JOURNALIST]], which says: {{tq| The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors...The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews...}} At first glance Saul appears to satisfy this (given that this article makes the "influential" claim with regard to both the 2016 and 2020 elections). But it seems fair enough to have to take a closer look at whether the sources actually bear this out, as there is very little discussion about the specifics around the 2016 election, and rather thin discussion about his other work as a journalist throughout his career. [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 17:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
:'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}''' Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]] [[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']] 23:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)<noinclude>[[Category:Relisted AfD debates|Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]]</noinclude>
*'''Comment''': I've found a few new sources about Saul since I published this article that I wanted to share, in case it's useful to other reviewers. I haven't added these sources to the article yet, because I'm not sure what specific facts they would support that aren't already in there. However, I thought they could help to establish notability: <ref>{{Cite web |title=American Democracy Summit Speakers |url=https://americandemocracysummit.org/speakers/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=American Democracy Summit |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |title=Isaac Saul - Official Member of The Progress Network |url=https://theprogressnetwork.org/network/isaac-saul/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=The Progress Network |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |title=Frank talks to Isaac Saul, Founder of Tangle News about the Israel-Hamas war. – 77 WABC |url=https://wabcradio.com/episode/frank-talks-to-isaac-saul-founder-of-tangle-news-about-the-israel-hamas-war/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=wabcradio.com |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Hibberd |first=James |date=2022-11-15 |title=‘SNL’ Ratings Hit Season High With Dave Chappelle Amid Uproar |url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/snl-ratings-dave-chappelle-1235262090/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=The Hollywood Reporter |language=en-US}}</ref>.
{{reflist talk}}
:'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}''' '''Relisting comment:''' Relisting to evaluate newly found sources not placed in the article yet. Right now, there is disagreement over whether existing sources are sufficient to establish notability for this journalist. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]] [[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']] 23:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)<noinclude>[[Category:Relisted AfD debates|Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]]</noinclude>
*'''Comment''': I just replaced the Transylvania listing of Isaac Saul's talk, which was justifiably critized by TSventon as not independent enough, with a more detailed article: <ref>{{Cite web |last=Brother |first=Nate |date=2023-12-06 |title=Transylvania Hosts Journalist Isaac Saul in Creative Intelligence Series. |url=https://transyrambler.com/2023/12/06/transylvania-hosts-journalist-isaac-saul-in-creative-intelligence-series/ |access-date=2023-12-08 |website=The Rambler |language=en-US}}</ref> [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 23:17, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist talk}}
:'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}''' '''Relisting comment:''' Final relist. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 04:28, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<noinclude>[[Category:Relisted AfD debates|Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]][[Category:AfD debates relisted 3 or more times|3 Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]]</noinclude>
:*'''Delete'''. None of the sources above demonstrate anything approaching notability. School newspapers are not independent sources on people their university invites to speak, nor are profiles by organizations the subject belongs to. It takes MUCH more recognition than a handful of mentions surrounding one or two events for someone to meet NJOURNO.
: [[User:JoelleJay|JoelleJay]] ([[User talk:JoelleJay|talk]]) 01:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
::Understood, although please note that the sources above are only the sources that I added recently – there are quite a few more listed in the article itself. [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 23:51, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)

2023-12-08T23:17:36Z

Mover of molehills: Added comment

===[[:Isaac Saul]]===
{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}}
<div class="other-afds" style="width:33%; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; background-color: #f8f9fa; color: black; margin: 0.5em 0 0.5em 1em; padding: 0.2em; float: right; clear: right; font-size: 88%; min-width:20em; max-width: 100%">AfDs for this article:
{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul}}
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<noinclude>{{AFD help}}</noinclude>
:{{la|1=Isaac Saul}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 December 1#{{anchorencode:Isaac Saul}}|View log]]</noinclude> | [[Special:Diff/1185574703/cur|edits since nomination]])
:({{Find sources AFD|title=Isaac Saul}})
This article was previously deleted via a deletion discussion ([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul]]). Most of the sources provided on the pages are from before the previous discussion, which would indicate that Saul is still non-notable. However, a few sources have been published since the last discussion in 2021. As such, I wouldn't necessarily consider this eligible for CSD, but it's worth discussing whether Saul is now notable. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade (she/her)]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 20:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/People|list of People-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade (she/her)]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 20:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Sportspeople|Sportspeople]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Journalism|Journalism]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Politics|Politics]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/New Jersey|New Jersey]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/New York|New York]], and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Pennsylvania|Pennsylvania]]. '''[[User:Wcquidditch|WC''Quidditch'']]''' [[User talk:Wcquidditch|☎]] [[Special:Contribs/Wcquidditch|✎]] 20:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*:Thanks for tagging me. I'd like to emphasize some of the new sources I've added to this article between the first and second nomination: <ref>{{Cite web |last=Lexington |first=Transylvania University 300 North Broadway |last2=Fax: 859‐233‐8797 |first2=KY 40508 USA Phone: 859-233‐8300 |title=Creative Intelligence |url=https://www.transy.edu/calendar/creative-intelligence |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Transylvania University {{!}} Calendar of Events |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=2020-11-13 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref>,<ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=Tangle founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |url-status=live |website=Axios}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=2022-05-30 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=2023-11-17}}</ref>. I thought that these references were some of the strongest in the piece. We now have direct mentions from CNN, Axios, the Financial Times, Forbes, Yahoo! News, Business Insider, Salon, and NBC Universal (none of which are articles Saul published himself). Doesn't this put the article well over the standard three-reference limit?
{{reflist talk}}
::[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 21:36, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::So my position is obviously '''keep''', although I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment on my own article. [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 14:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] you're perfectly entitled take a position in the discussion. Regards, [[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 23:59, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
@[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] the guideline for notability of people is [[WP:BIO]], which asks for "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject", while [[WP:THREE]] suggests presenting three references to show that WP:BIO is met. I don't think the five sources you linked provide the required coverage
*Transylvania University: listing for a talk by Saul at TU, not independent coverage
*Salon.com: quote from Saul, not independent
*NBCU Academy: looks like a mini interview, so not independent
*axios.com: listing for a talk by Saul, not independent coverage
*Financial Times: quote from Saul, not independent
[[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 02:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' — sources should notability, particularly the ones in the "Recognition" section.
[[User:DaniloDaysOfOurLives|DaniloDaysOfOurLives]] ([[User talk:DaniloDaysOfOurLives|talk]]) 13:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. The relevant notability criteria here is: [[WP:JOURNALIST]], which says: {{tq| The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors...The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews...}} At first glance Saul appears to satisfy this (given that this article makes the "influential" claim with regard to both the 2016 and 2020 elections). But it seems fair enough to have to take a closer look at whether the sources actually bear this out, as there is very little discussion about the specifics around the 2016 election, and rather thin discussion about his other work as a journalist throughout his career. [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 17:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
:'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}''' Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]] [[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']] 23:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)<noinclude>[[Category:Relisted AfD debates|Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]]</noinclude>
*'''Comment''': I've found a few new sources about Saul since I published this article that I wanted to share, in case it's useful to other reviewers. I haven't added these sources to the article yet, because I'm not sure what specific facts they would support that aren't already in there. However, I thought they could help to establish notability: <ref>{{Cite web |title=American Democracy Summit Speakers |url=https://americandemocracysummit.org/speakers/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=American Democracy Summit |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |title=Isaac Saul - Official Member of The Progress Network |url=https://theprogressnetwork.org/network/isaac-saul/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=The Progress Network |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |title=Frank talks to Isaac Saul, Founder of Tangle News about the Israel-Hamas war. – 77 WABC |url=https://wabcradio.com/episode/frank-talks-to-isaac-saul-founder-of-tangle-news-about-the-israel-hamas-war/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=wabcradio.com |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Hibberd |first=James |date=2022-11-15 |title=‘SNL’ Ratings Hit Season High With Dave Chappelle Amid Uproar |url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/snl-ratings-dave-chappelle-1235262090/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=The Hollywood Reporter |language=en-US}}</ref>.
{{reflist talk}}
:'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}''' '''Relisting comment:''' Relisting to evaluate newly found sources not placed in the article yet. Right now, there is disagreement over whether existing sources are sufficient to establish notability for this journalist. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]] [[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']] 23:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)<noinclude>[[Category:Relisted AfD debates|Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]]</noinclude>
*'''Comment''': I just replaced the Transylvania listing of Isaac Saul's talk, which was justifiably critized by TSventon as not independent enough, with a more detailed article: <ref>{{Cite web |last=Brother |first=Nate |date=2023-12-06 |title=Transylvania Hosts Journalist Isaac Saul in Creative Intelligence Series. |url=https://transyrambler.com/2023/12/06/transylvania-hosts-journalist-isaac-saul-in-creative-intelligence-series/ |access-date=2023-12-08 |website=The Rambler |language=en-US}}</ref> [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 23:17, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist talk}}

Isaac Saul

2023-12-08T23:08:52Z

Mover of molehills: Upgraded citation

{{short description|American journalist}}

{{AfDM|page=Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)|year=2023|month=November|day=17|substed=yes|origtag=afdx|help=off}}


'''Isaac M. Saul''' ({{IPAc-en|s|ɔː|l}}) is an American journalist. His work has appeared in publications including [[CNN]], ''[[The Huffington Post]]'', [[Time (magazine)|''TIME'' Magazine]],<ref>{{Cite magazine|title=YOLK Solar Cow: The 100 Best Inventions of 2019|url=https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|access-date=2021-01-14|magazine=Time|language=en-us|archive-date=2020-11-29|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129015117/https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|url-status=live}}</ref> the ''[[Independent Journal Review]]''<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul, Author at IJR|url=https://ijr.org/author/isaacsaul/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=IJR|language=en-US|archive-date=2021-03-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327173834/https://ijr.com/author/isaacsaul/|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Daily Mail|''The Daily Mail'']].<ref name=":3" /> Outside of his work with newspapers, in 2020 he founded Tangle, an online newsletter which aims to give nonpartisan coverage of current events.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Brother |first=Nate |date=2023-12-06 |title=Transylvania Hosts Journalist Isaac Saul in Creative Intelligence Series. |url=https://transyrambler.com/2023/12/06/transylvania-hosts-journalist-isaac-saul-in-creative-intelligence-series/ |access-date=2023-12-08 |website=The Rambler |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Early life and education ==
Saul was born on May 14, 1991, in [[Trenton, New Jersey|Trenton]], New Jersey. He first became interested in journalism during his time at [[Pennsbury High School]] in Pennsylvania, and got his first job in news while he was an undergraduate student in nonfiction writing at the [[University of Pittsburgh]].<ref name=":0" />

== Career ==
He later began work at ''[[HuffPost|The Huffington Post]]'', which he left in 2014. After this, Saul helped to found a "positive journalism" site called ''A Plus News''.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=http://www.isaacsaul.com/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Isaac Saul|language=en|archive-date=2021-01-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115211129/http://www.isaacsaul.com/|url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=Tangle founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |website=Axios}}</ref>

During the course of his career as a reporter, Saul has covered issues mainly related to [[Politics of the United States|American politics]]<ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=2016-09-28|title=I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|access-date=2021-01-13|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=2021-01-21|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232844/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[sport]]s.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|date=2014-01-20|title=What Richard Sherman Taught Us About America|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|access-date=2021-01-13|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=2021-02-18|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210218063909/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|url-status=live}}</ref> His reporting on an encounter that he had with a controversial lawyer named Aaron Schlossberg was featured in a live broadcast on CNN in 2018.<ref>{{Citation|title=Reporter describes encounter with NYC lawyer - CNN Video|url=https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|access-date=2021-01-13|archive-date=2021-01-24|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210124010837/https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also worked as an opinion editor for several major magazines and published several editorials stating his opinions on specific political candidates.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref> Other topics he has covered include religion.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Van den Terrell |first=Emma |date=2015 |title=Agnost-a-What? |url=https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |journal=Society |volume=52 |issue=3 |pages=201–202 |doi=10.1007/s12115-015-9887-1 |via=[[EBSCOHost]]}}</ref>

Saul's work in reporting drew particular praise during the [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|challenges to the 2020 US presidential election]], when he helped to discredit some of the [[Conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]] and allegations of [[Electoral fraud|voter fraud]] around the election. As part of this effort, he published a running thread of [[Twitter|tweets]] in which he challenged his readers to find an instance of alleged voter fraud that he couldn't disprove, a project which received external media coverage.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=2020-11-13 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref> Saul publicly condemned a number of the fraud claims that he had to respond to, saying that "new lies just kept pouring in," and expressed concern that some of the conspiracy theories were wrongly accusing [[poll workers]] of committing election fraud, which could put the lives of these workers in danger.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Fisher |first=Anthony L. |title=Voter-fraud debunking journalist Isaac Saul talks about his viral election thread and why the conspiracy theories put poll workers in danger |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/voter-fraud-debunked-isaac-saul-viral-election-thread-conspiracy-theories-2020-11 |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Business Insider |language=en-US}}</ref> In the end, he had challenged over 32 different conspiracy theories within the first week after the election results were announced.<ref>{{Cite web|date=2020-11-15|title=32 Republican 'Election Fraud' Claims, Debunked by Isaac Saul|url=https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|access-date=2021-03-27|website=TrumpFile.org|language=en-US|archive-date=2020-12-02|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201202192105/https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|url-status=live}}</ref>

Also in conjunction with the 2020 election, Saul drew coverage for betting $15,000 with a friend that [[Joe Biden]] would be inaugurated as president, a bet which he won.<ref>{{Cite web|title=STF Special: Betting $15,000 In Gold On The Future Of The Republic|url=https://www.spreaker.com/user/ultiworld/stf-interview-with-ike-saul|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Spreaker|language=en}}</ref>

=== Tangle ===
In July 2020 Saul began a politics newsletter called "the Shuffle" which was later renamed to "Tangle."<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=Two years (!!!) of Tangle...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/two-years-of-tangle|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.readtangle.com}}</ref> The newsletter continued to expand in readership over the coming months, eventually becoming read in a many as thirty countries.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/isaac-saul/|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Forbes|language=en}}</ref> On April 19, 2021, Saul announced that he had quit his job as a newspaper editor to work on Tangle full-time.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=So, I quit my job today...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/quit-my-job-today|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.readtangle.com}}</ref> Tangle has received substantial media coverage focused on the success of its subscriber-based model<ref name="Academy">{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref> and its efficacy in bridging political divisions.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=2022-05-30 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=2023-11-17}}</ref> In 2023, the first live Tangle event, on the state of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], was hosted in Philadelphia.<ref name=":4" />

As of October 2023, Tangle is believed to have more than 65,000 subscribers, generating more than $600,000 of revenue per year.<ref name="Academy"/>

== Recognition ==
In 2016, [[Yahoo! News]] named Saul as one of the 16 people who had had the greatest influence on the [[2016 United States elections|2016 US election.]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=16 people who shaped the 2016 election: Isaac Saul|url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|access-date=2021-01-13|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US|archive-date=2020-09-19|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919085147/https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|url-status=live}}</ref> He also was named the winner of the Pittsburgh Neighborhoods in Transition writing contest for a story that he wrote on William Vassar.<ref name=":0" /> He also made the [[Forbes]] "Next 1000" list of "upstart entrepreneurs redefining the American dream."<ref>{{Cite web|title=Forbes Next 1000 2021|url=https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|access-date=2021-03-27|website=Forbes|archive-date=2021-03-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327062454/https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|url-status=live}}</ref>

== Personal life ==
Outside of his work, Saul is a competitive [[Ultimate (sport)|Ultimate]] player. He won several state championships during his time playing for the team at Pennsbury High School, and later won two national championships with his team at the University of Pittsburgh and a national championship with Pride of New York (PoNY), a club team in New York City.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Pollock|first1=Simon|date=2018-10-23|title=PoNY Dismantles Revolver To Win National Title|url=https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-02-09|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210209210526/https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|url-status=live}}</ref> Later, he played for the [[New York City]] team Rumble.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Charlie Eisenhood in News with 6|date=2014-06-09|title=NY Rumble's Isaac Saul To Join AUDL's Empire After MLU Season|url=https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-01-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115094040/https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|url-status=live}}</ref>

He has also traveled around the world for his work, and spent five months studying in a [[yeshiva]] while living in [[Jerusalem]] after college.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115213105/https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|archive-date=2021-01-15|access-date=2021-01-13|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref>

== References ==

{{reflist}}

== External links ==
* [http://isaacsaul.com Saul's personal website]
* [http://readtangle.com Tangle official site]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Saul, Isaac}}
[[Category:1991 births]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:American journalists]]
[[Category:University of Pittsburgh alumni]]
[[Category:People from Trenton, New Jersey]]
[[Category:Voter suppression]]

Wikipedia:Teahouse

2023-12-07T14:20:11Z

Mover of molehills: /* Long-running AfD discussion */ new section

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== How to become a teahouse host ==

I am a lot more experienced than most editors here. Reason? I want to become a host here. How can I become a Teahouse host? What are the requirements? (I think I meet all of them and there’s no way where I would be presented as not even close). I will reach 500 edits today or tomorrow, which increases my chance of meeting all requirements. [[User:Equalwidth|Equal]][[User talk:Equalwidth|width]] ([[Special:Contributions/Equalwidth|C]]) 05:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not sure why you assume there's a set of requirements per se. However, are you truly experienced enough to locate the "Become a host" button at the top of this page, and then click it? That may send you on your way, cheers! :) [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 05:04, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::It is invisible. [[User:Equalwidth|Equal]][[User talk:Equalwidth|width]] ([[Special:Contributions/Equalwidth|C]]) 05:06, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Oh! in that case, I would go to [[WP:Teahouse/Host start|this page]]. Good luck. [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 05:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Just need to make 45 more edits and I will become one! [[User:Equalwidth|Equal]][[User talk:Equalwidth|width]] ([[Special:Contributions/Equalwidth|C]]) 05:09, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::…500 mainspace edits? That’s a little strict so for that case the criteria will be 500 edits across all namespaces. [[User:Equalwidth|Equal]][[User talk:Equalwidth|width]] ([[Special:Contributions/Equalwidth|C]]) 06:05, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::@[[User:Equalwidth|Equalwidth]], nothing special happens when you sign up as a Teahouse host, so you don't need to worry about getting a certain number of edits to clear this imaginary bar. There isn't anything stopping you from answering other people's questions here, no matter what your edit count or account age is, so if you can help someone, just go ahead and do so! -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 06:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I’ve successfully registered myself as a Teahouse host after reaching 500 edits. [[User:Equalwidth|Equal]][[User talk:Equalwidth|width]] ([[Special:Contributions/Equalwidth|C]]) 07:42, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

"I am a lot more experienced than most editors here." Well, no. The most active of Teahouse Hosts have been such for years, had accounts longer than that, and number their edits in the thousands (I am at >52,000 edits). That said, welcome! Teahouse needs more active Hosts. Start by offering advice only when you are sure your replies are correct [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 06:01, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:I am a lot more experienced than most editors asking questions here [[User:Equalwidth|Equal]][[User talk:Equalwidth|width]] ([[Special:Contributions/Equalwidth|C]]) 06:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::{{midsize|I would hope so, this is a place for newcomers to ask questions! }}[[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 06:05, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:::{{midsize|What is essential is having enough knowledge and experience to ANSWER questions correctly.}} [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 06:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Yes, I am concerned looking at their talk page: it seems to consist of an already extant track record of receiving advice and help from more experienced editors, which is met with silence at best and unequivocal disagreement usually. Plus the editing behavior I've happened to also see, featuring pretty arbitrary references to policy whether actually read beforehand or not. I would really recommend keeping an eye on this person's advice in the Teahouse, unfortunately. The enthusiasm is good, but. [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 07:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Equalwidth}}, becoming a Teahouse host is not a reward or a badge of honor. It is taking on an ''obligation'' to do your very best to provide friendly, accurate and informative answers to the questions that editors ask here. And to be willing to learn yourself. I have been editing for 14-1/2 years and have contributed to the Teahouse since its earliest days. I have made over 10,000 edits to the Teahouse. Do not be quick to answer a question unless you are highly confident that your answer is correct. This is not a race or a game. There are many questions that I do not answer because this is a very complex project, and after over 100,000 edits to Wikipedia, there are still aspects of the project that I do not fully understand. It is far better to remain silent than to give out incorrect information. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 10:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::I knew all that… [[User:Equalwidth|Equal]][[User talk:Equalwidth|width]] ([[Special:Contributions/Equalwidth|C]]) 10:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Well, if you "knew all that", go ahead. But if you see that your Teahouse replies are being subsequently criticized/correct, consider stopping. Competency is required for all aspects of Wikipedia ([[WP:CIR]]), and can lead to you being indefinitely blocked if you persist and are consistently wrong. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 17:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:Just to note that Equalwidth was blocked for a week earlier today, for disruptive editing. {{u|Equalwidth}}, you'd still be welcome to help out at the Teahouse in the future, preferably when you have more experience, but it seems you need to work on your own behaviour first, before seeking to help others. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 18:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Yeah, and then there's this quotation from their user page:
::: {{talk quote|Books sound like a waste of time because I believe that they provide no value whatsoever}}
:: which does not bode well for their complying with [[WP:Verifiability]]. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 09:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes, they also have a userspace essay about how sourcing isn't important, and in their unblock request, mentioned their intention to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Equalwidth&oldid=1181006360 restore a talk page notice that tells editors not to tell him to read up on policies]. I've been trying to help this editor for the last two weeks because they do seem to have a good-faith desire to contribute, but much like this thread, all they do is insist that "they already know" and refuse to change.
:::Please notify me if they return here after their week long block expires. They've been rather prolific in giving bad answers and advice both on at the tea house and across the project, so they really shouldn't be fielding questions here any time soon. Thank you. [[User:Sergecross73|Sergecross73]] [[User talk:Sergecross73|msg me]] 14:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::[[User:Sergecross73|Sergecross73]], to sum it up, it seems like they have good faith in themselves, but not in anyone else. [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 21:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::Pretty much. It's like he wants to start a career as a Trainer, but refuses to spend any time doing the jobs he hopes train people in; commendable to want to help people, but entirely ineffective because there's no base of experience to pull from. [[User:Sergecross73|Sergecross73]] [[User talk:Sergecross73|msg me]] 23:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== How do I challenge an uninvolved administrator's decision not to change date format? ==

In [[Nintendo]] article, it was retained as mdy for 11 years after [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nintendo&diff=next&oldid=9083756 early January 2004], but an editor unilaterally [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nintendo&diff=next&oldid=740823677 changed the date format] in violation of [[MOS:DATERET]] and since then retained that date format for 7 years. And an uninvolved administrator [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nintendo closed a date format discussion], effectively stopping the discussion. The administrator said no consensus to change, so we default to the [[WP:EDITCON]] of the last seven years. So, I mainly said on [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sergecross73 administrator's talk page] that mdy should be used based on [[MOS:NUM]] (and the WP:EDITCON does not prevent all changes without gaining consensus). The MOS:NUM states that if discussion fails to resolve the question of which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. The administrator lastly said on the administrator's talk page that the reason mdy shouldn't be used is because you're not even upset about wrong dates, you're upset about how the same dates are written out. According to this administrator's personal opinion, there is no reason for [[MOS:RETAIN]] rule to exist. In any case, even if an explicit consensus is not achieved, it should be changed to the first major contributor's date format, according to the MOS:NUM. The WP:EDITCON also does not prevent all changes from violating the rules. I don't want to continue endless arguments with this administrator because [[WP:NOTDEMOCRACY|Wikipedia is not a democracy]], but I would like to challenge this administrator's decision somewhere to change the date format. How do I challenge the administrator's decision not to change the date format? [[User:WAccount1234567890|WAccount1234567890]] ([[User talk:WAccount1234567890|talk]]) 05:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:The relevant statement in [[MOS:DATEFORMAT]] is:
:{{blockquote|{{xt|If an article has evolved using predominantly one date format, this format should be used throughout the article, unless there are reasons for changing it based on strong national ties to the topic or consensus on the article's talk page.}}}}
:It seems that DMY is based on the 'strong national ties' given that Nintendo is one of the most famous Japanese companies. This is plausible—and personally, this would be my choice, but that's irrelevant here. I am not sure you have read the policy correctly, since you have said that "even if an explicit consensus is not achieved, it should be changed to the first major contributor's date format". This is not what the page appears to say. [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 05:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::I am leaving a comment because you wrote as if I misunderstood the rules. The [[MOS:NUM]] states that if discussion fails to resolve the question of which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. I know the "sentence" you're talking about isn't explicitly included, but this actually doesn't require any explicit consensus. [[User:WAccount1234567890|WAccount1234567890]] ([[User talk:WAccount1234567890|talk]]) 06:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi, [[User:WAccount1234567890]], welcome to the Teahouse! Let it go. It's already not worth the editor time that's been spent on it, much less a further investment. [[WP:DTS]] is instructive in this situation. Twenty-six of your thirty contributions to this project have been about the date format at a single article. Surely there's something else you care about too? [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 05:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::{{u|WAccount1234567890}}, focusing on date formats is a complete and total waste of time that does nothing to improve the encyclopedia. I highly recommend that you focus on ''substantive'' improvements to Wikipedia articles instead. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 10:39, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

== Article of Georgios Dritsakos ==

I just submitted the draft of Georgios Dritsakos will be transferred to the articles about the retired Lieutenant General Georgios Dritsakos. He served as Adjutant of the Hellenic Air Force to the President of the Hellenic Republic Constantinos Stephanopoulos from 2002–2005. He was a Lieutenant Colonel and Colonel. Do you have somebody make an articles of Georgios Dritsakos? He is now the Governor of the Hellenic Civil Aviation Authority. [[Special:Contributions/108.21.67.83|108.21.67.83]] ([[User talk:108.21.67.83|talk]]) 15:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

:Welcome to the Teahouse! I see you resubmitted [[Draft:Georgios Dritsakos]], which I just declined again because you haven't addressed the comments from the previous reviewers. Wikipedia editors are volunteers who write about what they like. I added some additional WikiProjects to the talk page in the hope that will get some more attention to your draft. You could also try asking at the appropriate subpage of [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]], but there is no guarantee that anyone will respond to your request. [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 16:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::I want to explain this. How do I try to ask at the appropriate subpage of Wikipedia:Requested articles before somebody will help me out about the draft of Governor of the Hellenic Civil Aviation Authority Georgios Dritsakos, former Adjutant to the President of the Hellenic Republic and the Retired Lieutenant General of the Hellenic Air Force? [[Special:Contributions/108.21.67.83|108.21.67.83]] ([[User talk:108.21.67.83|talk]]) 00:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::The answer is – you shouldn't try, because it's very unlikely that anyone who ''could'' help, ''and'' would want to, will see such a request.
:::What ''you'' need to do is find acceptable (i.e. lengthy, independent, published) [[WP:Reliable sources|Reliable sources]] that demonstrate the [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)|Notability]] of Georgios Dritsakos, add the information from them to the Draft, and correctly cite the sources. ''This may not be possible'', because Georgios Dritsakos may not ''be'' "notable" (in Wikipedia's use of the term).
:::You also need to cite sources for much of the information already in the Draft – ''every'' fact needs to be cited to a source (which may mean citing the same source several times). If those acceptable sources do not exist, no article about Georgios Dritsakos can, at this time, be made to meet the requirements. Not every current or ex-military officer or Civil Servant is "Notable", most are not: perhaps if Georgios Dritsakos attains more prominence in future, more source material will be written that can be used.
:::Incidentally, you begin the draft by describing him as a "Greek colonel". The regime of the [[Greek colonels]] ended in 1974, so this is puzzling. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.194.245.32|51.194.245.32]] ([[User talk:51.194.245.32|talk]]) 13:44, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::::You're wrong. I have this in the information about the reference for Lieutenant General Georgios Dritsakos. https://web.archive.org/web/20140806053317/http://www.haf.gr/el/structure/hgesia/dritsakos_cv.asp [[Special:Contributions/108.21.67.83|108.21.67.83]] ([[User talk:108.21.67.83|talk]]) 14:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::::https://web.archive.org/web/20140806053317/http://www.haf.gr/el/structure/hgesia/dritsakos_cv.asp says "Σμήναρχος: 20/04/2004", and Google Translate and Wiktionary agree that "σμήναρχος" means colonel. Just because the Greek junta run by colonels ended doesn't mean that Greece no longer has colonels. [[User:Sollyucko|Solomon Ucko]] ([[User talk:Sollyucko|talk]]) 16:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::But this is the English-language Wikipedia, and in the English language "Greek Colonel" is usually understood to be a reference to the Junta, rather than just to any Colonel in the Greek military forces.
:::::It may be that very senior Greek military officers are routinely referred to as "Colonels", but this is not usually the case elsewhere, so you would need to clarify what is meant by it in this instance. For comparison, in the British Army a Colonel is the seniormost soldier of a regiment or corps, but is junior to all Brigadiers, Major-Generals, Lieutenant-Generals, Generals and Field Marshals. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.194.245.32|51.194.245.32]] ([[User talk:51.194.245.32|talk]]) 16:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:I don't think the sources you use in your [[Draft:Georgios Dritsakos]] are sufficient to constitute notability.
:The [[WP:GNG|General notability guidelines]] require "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". The [[WP:BASIC|basic criteria for notability of people]] clarify this as "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject" (see the link for additional explanation). As far as I can tell, the first source is not independent of the subject, and the other two do not constitute significant coverage.
:Alternatively, [[WP:ANYBIO|the "any biography" notability guidelines]] provide the option that he have "received a well-known and significant award or honor" or have "been nominated for such an award several times". https://web.archive.org/web/20140806053317/http://www.haf.gr/el/structure/hgesia/dritsakos_cv.asp lists various medals, but I don't know if they count as "well-known and significant".
:In order for your Wikipedia article to be accepted, start by providing any of the following:
:* Reliable, independent sources that provide significant coverage.
:* Evidence of any of the medals being both "well-known" and "significant", ideally in relation to Georgios Dritsakos specifically.
:* A reliable source stating that he received a "well-known and significant award or honor".
:[[User:Sollyucko|Solomon Ucko]] ([[User talk:Sollyucko|talk]]) 17:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

== Problems with editors (and admins!) removing factual information ==

Hi there, I'm new to editing Wikipedia. I've been trying to update some information for the city I live in. I've been attempting to update the Demographics section with raw unopinionated data from the most recent Census and American Community Survey, but I've had it repeatedly removed by editors. I attempted to undo the removal, and an admin reversed that and said it needed a 'consensus'. Is that true, that Wikipedia requires a consensus for raw demographic counts to be posted? I'm kind of concerned about it, and hoping someone can provide guidance. For reference, I'm talking about the Vista, CA Wikipedia page. [[Special:Contributions/76.232.123.103|76.232.123.103]] ([[User talk:76.232.123.103|talk]]) 20:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

:Welcome to the Teahouse! [[WP:CONSENSUS|Consensus]] is the way Wikipedia editors decide what information (and at what level of detail) is included in an article. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Settlements: Article structure]] does not provide specify what demographic sources should or should not be included. The [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle]] is a common way to start the process to determine consensus. I'm glad you're having a discussion at [[Talk:Vista, California]] page. You may need to have separate discussions for each topic you've added that has been reverted. Happy editing! [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 21:02, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::Got it, thanks for your help. I had a discussion with the admin in question and sorted the issue. Reposting a question I posed to the admin here if anyone is open to answering:
::"To follow up, I was wondering generally if there are any specific Wikipedia rules or policies relative to deleting otherwise factual information. As in, if an editor deletes a cited fact that is presented without opinion, does that still require discussion before undoing the removal? Or could the removal be considered vandalism or something, given that the edit removed a truthful and relevant fact. I always assumed Wikipedia would allow factual information to stand, so long as it is in fact relevant to the topic of the page. I'm planning a series of edits to update the page in question, and plan to support them all with citations, but I'm concerned about getting bogged down in 'discussions' over things that are actual facts, if that makes sense. Discussions relevant to whether or not something is relevant to the topic, whether or not it is actually true, or supported by a given reference, etc I can see would clearly warrant discussion. Just wondering what to do in the case someone undoes a factual edit over an undefined or overtly subjective/preferential reason, and whether that still requires discussion before reinstating the facts." [[Special:Contributions/76.232.123.103|76.232.123.103]] ([[User talk:76.232.123.103|talk]]) 21:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Consensus is ''always'' required when another editor disagrees with content that you have added. A cycle of repeatedly adding and removing content without talk page discussion is [[WP:EW|Edit warring]], which is blockable offense. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 23:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
::::I think what I'm trying to ask is at what point would deleting factual information count as vandalism or some other offense? Surely consensus is not required for factual information, if the veracity of the fact itself is unchallenged. [[Special:Contributions/76.232.123.103|76.232.123.103]] ([[User talk:76.232.123.103|talk]]) 02:26, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::Consensus is still required when someone challenges factual information. Wikipedia does not aim to contain all factual information, and discussion is needed when we disagree about what factual information should be included. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 02:39, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::[[Wikipedia: Vandalism]] begins by saying {{tpq|On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a free encyclopedia}}. Any good faith disagreement about which content to include in an article is, by definition, not vandalism. False accusations of vandalism are a form of disruptive editing. You are incorrect that consensus is not required to add factual information. If the addition is contested by another editor, then gaining consensus is mandatory. According to [[Wikipedia: What Wikipedia is not]], which is policy, {{tpq|Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information}} and {{tpq|merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia}} and {{tpq|Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject.}} So, how is the decision made about what to include in a specific article? Through consensus among the editors interested in that article. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 02:47, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::You stated "Surely consensus is not required for factual information". However, consensus IS required, even for factual information. For example, imagine if we could find reliable published sources for the daily temperature for Vista for every day for the last 30 years, or every street name in Vista, or every person who ever served on the city council. While we could all agree that it was factual information, we would still not include all of it in the article. We don't have guidelines stating listing every possible piece of information and whether it should or should not be in the article. Instead, we rely on consensus building to make those determinations. [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 03:12, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::Thanks, my full statement was "Surely consensus is not required for factual information, ''if the veracity of the fact itself is unchallenged''." Still, I see your point about not including every possible data point. However, if someone is removing current factual data, such as current demographics, which is present on every other city page, without contesting the veracity of the data, is that not fitting the definition of vandalism? It seems to be that would be a deliberate intent to obstruct or defeat the purpose of the city project pages, especially because the city project guidelines do indeed specify that current demographic estimates should be included. If an act is believed to be vandalism, is there a way to report to admins, or what would be the proper avenue? [[Special:Contributions/76.232.123.103|76.232.123.103]] ([[User talk:76.232.123.103|talk]]) 03:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::The edit summaries briefly explain why your edits were reverted, which demonstrate that you're having a difference of opinion, and the editors involved are not committing vandalism. I see you've started a discussion on the talk page about the Native American history, and suggest you do something similar for the demographic data. For reporting actual vandalism, there is [[WP:AIV]], and it's important for you to read the big green section at the top before posting there. If you do post there, you might receive similar responses to those you received here. [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 04:39, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::You say you've read the edit summaries... but several of the edit summaries did not address at all why certain things were removed. The Native American history being removed is one such example. I do think that qualifies as vandalism. Please feel free to let me know if you disagree. [[Special:Contributions/76.232.123.103|76.232.123.103]] ([[User talk:76.232.123.103|talk]]) 05:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::For more context, what I'm referring to is edit summaries that address one particular facet of what was removed, but not other parts that were removed. Are editors allowed to revert such edits without discussion? Especially if factual information was removed without any indication of rationale ''or disagreement'' in the edit summary. [[Special:Contributions/76.232.123.103|76.232.123.103]] ([[User talk:76.232.123.103|talk]]) 05:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Okay upon further review it looks like vandalism warnings are what I was looking for. Sounds like at least one of those warning templates apply if things were deleted without explanation. I will use those in the future if needed. Thanks for your help [[Special:Contributions/76.232.123.103|76.232.123.103]] ([[User talk:76.232.123.103|talk]]) 06:36, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::: Be *very* careful before issuing a vandalism warning, as it is likely not what you think; the specific meaning was quoted above. Even if an editor adds false information, even in a disruptive way, even while edit-warring, it is not vandalism if their goal is to improve the article with the edit in question. The edit might violate other policies or guidelines in those circumstances, but not vandalism per se. Be sure you understand this before issuing any warnings. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 09:28, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== how do I write a new article without using the article wizard every time? ==

Please help. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cheesemaster12|Cheesemaster12]] ([[User talk:Cheesemaster12#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cheesemaster12|contribs]]) 05:16, 4 December 2023 (UTC) 

:@[[User:Cheesemaster12|Cheesemaster12]]: Welcome to the Teahouse! You can create a page at [[User:Cheesemaster12/sandbox]] or as a [[WP:Draft|draft]] and work on it at your leisure. When you are done with it, you can use the [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation]] process to ask for a review, or (if you've had success creating articles before) [[WP:MOVE|move]] it directly to articlespace. Happy editing! [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 05:36, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::{{u|Cheesemaster12}}, use of the Article Wizard is a convenience, and is entirely optional for established editors. Use of the Articles for creation process is also entirely optional for established editors. I have written over 100 new articles and none of them went through tje wizard or AFC. None has been deleted. That is because I understand [[WP:GNG|Notability]] and other relevant [[WP:PAG|Policies and guidelines]], and I gather up my high quality references before trying to write a new article. Only then, I then create citations to those reliable sources, and begin summarizing what they say. This is how an acceptable Wikipedia should be written. Writing down what you think you know about the topic, and then later trying to find sources is the wrong approach that repeatedly leads to frustration. To summarize: find your reliable sources first and format them into references. Only then, summarize what your reliable sources say. Do not use weak or mediocre sources. Use only the highest quality reliable, independent sources that devote significant coverage to the topic. That approach followed correctly guarantees success. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 08:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

:[[User:Cheesemaster12|Cheesemaster12]], you haven't made many edits so far; and of those that you have made, a number have been reverted. I advise you to practise improving existing articles some more before you embark on creating a new article. That way you'll have a greater chance of success. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 09:39, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::If you decide to skip AfC and create an article in Mainspace, and it is not up to or close to Wikipedia standards, then New Pages Patrol ([[WP:NPP]]) reviewers are likely to convert it to a draft, start a deletion process at [[WP:AFD]] or just Speedy delete it. Hence, waste of your time. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 11:02, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:The only way I could think of without the Wizard is by using your sandbox. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Talk to me!''']]) ([[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|Stone Free]]) 14:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::That's not what this user is referring to. They want to directly create articles, not create them elsewhere. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:17, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::oh, so like, skip the draft process entirely? [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Talk to me!''']]) ([[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|Stone Free]]) 14:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== My registration date is incorrect. I'm not sure where to ask about this... ==

Like I said, I'm not sure who or where to address this matter, but I believe my registration date is incorrect.

The earliest edit I can find that I made is dated [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Master_boot_record&oldid=498961129 23 June 2012] but on my account page it says I registered in 2015.

How do I get this corrected so my account shows the correct date/year that I actually created my account here?

[[User:Tallship|Tallship]] ([[User talk:Tallship|talk]]) 09:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

:There isn't any way as far as I know to go back and change the date your account was created. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Tallship The global log] indicates you registered in 2015 so I don't know how you could have edited in 2012. It could have something to do with when accounts were made global across all projects, but someone with more knowledge than I would need to speak to that. Did you create your account on this project? No account creation date is listed for you, which suggests you created it on another project. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:48, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:Interesting that your [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/Tallship Xtools record] shows the first edit on 2012-06-23 09:02, while [[Special:CentralAuth/Tallship]] shows registration as 14:03, 17 March 2015. -- [[User:DoubleGrazing|DoubleGrazing]] ([[User talk:DoubleGrazing|talk]]) 10:30, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::{{ping|Tallship}} The [[Special:Log/newusers|user creation log]] was started in 2005 and you aren't registered there. Is it possible your account was created before that and made no edit until 2012? I don't think the creation date can be found in that case. [[Special:CentralAuth/Tallship]] shows the global account creation, a system that didn't exist in 2005. The date shown there cannot and should not be changed. [[:mw:SUL finalisation]] ended in 2015. Your account was in the last group to get global accounts because you didn't request it and your username existed at different wikis with different passwords. Before global accounts, different people could pick the same name at different wikis. MediaWiki had no way of telling whether it was the same person when the password was different. An account at meta which may or may not have been yours was automatically renamed to Tallship~metawiki.[https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=11733034] [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 11:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Thank you so much (everyone who chimed in)!
:::@[[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] 's explanation actually provided me with the most comprehensive likelihoods possible of the various scenarios. As an early adopter I usually create an account somewhere I consider important even if I've no immediate plans to participate - so it stands to reason that I created the account years before I actually affected my first edit in 2012.
:::Thank you again everyone, and kindest regards,
:::[[User:Tallship|Tallship]] ([[User talk:Tallship|talk]]) 22:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== New and intimidated, could use some advice and encouragement. ==

Here's my situation. I could use something else to do to pass the time. I lost the taste for computer games quite a while ago, so that's a non-starter. Never been particularly outdoorsy, so all the outdoors things are a non-starter as well. Youtube's getting stale and transforming more and more into TV as time goes on, and I dislike TV so much that I haven't watched it in 12-14 years. While I do love to read, when it's the only thing to do, it starts to get old. Not to mention for an unknown reason I can't read a book more than 2-3 hours a day otherwise place names and character names begin to mean nothing to me.

I figured that I had this Wikipedia account I'm not using, so why not help out Wikipedia?

The thing is, even though I've looked through the new editors' tutorial and the introduction to contributing, I still feel completely intimidated! I'm worried I'm gonna mess something up and be told to go away and never come back. I do have some MediaWiki experience, so I feel confident in actually ''executing'' an edit, the markup isn't the scary thing to me. But I'm concerned I'm gonna break some rule or policy I don't know about or I may be interpreting differently than everybody else. Again, it's intimidating.

Advice? Thoughts? [[User:Kilroy Was Here 1856|Kilroy Was Here 1856]] ([[User talk:Kilroy Was Here 1856|talk]]) 12:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi @[[User:Kilroy Was Here 1856|Kilroy Was Here 1856]], Welcome to Wikipedia. You can begin your editing journey by visiting the [[Wikipedia:Community portal]] and fixing articles with maintenance tags. You must not be scared to edit, if you do something wrong (not repeatedly), someone will definitly notify you about it and rectify the error. If you have copyediting skills, improve the quality of Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:GOCE/REQ|articles]]..{{pb}}If you need any assistance or have doubts, you can always reach out to me or any other editor or put up a question in the [[WP:TH|Teahouse]]. [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 12:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Kilroy Was Here 1856|Kilroy Was Here 1856]] [[WP:TASKS]], is also a good place to find tasks initially. [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 13:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] Thanks for the help, those two pages definitely help. I feel a little less anxious about this whole editing thing now. [[User:Kilroy Was Here 1856|Kilroy Was Here 1856]] ([[User talk:Kilroy Was Here 1856|talk]]) 20:26, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::: {{u|Kilroy Was Here 1856}} You might make a mistake (which will get fixed by someone after you), but you won't break anything. One of the Wikipedia editing guidelines is [[WP:BE BOLD]], so just go edit, and don't worry! [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 09:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi @[[User:Kilroy Was Here 1856|Kilroy Was Here 1856]], I was in the same position a few months ago - there are so many policies and pages that it can be overwhelming for a new user! I would encourage you to find articles about things you are interested in and start small. I learned a lot from jumping in and starting, like add a fact to a stub article with a citation, fix typos or grammar, or fix markup that displays an error in edit mode. My suggestion is to explore categories in your interests and find tasks you feel comfortable doing. If there is an area you would like to learn, there are lots of friendly editors who can point you in the right direction. Good luck and welcome! [[User:NatFee|NatFee]] ([[User talk:NatFee|talk]]) 16:58, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:As others have been saying, the general policy here is to [[WP:Be Bold]], and sometimes bold changes are wrong, but that’s what everybody else is here for. I totally get the intimation. It seems like everybody has every policy linked and memorized and locked & loaded, but the truth is, those with the most knowledge self-select for making corrections! That’s what’s kinda great about it. It doesn’t mean you’re so far behind. Also small tip, don’t be too discouraged if one of your good-faith edits gets caught by a vandalism filter or bot and gets reverted. It can be discouraging, but it happens a lot and doesn’t mean you did anything wrong. Best to just chat with the person who made the revert over on their talk page and clear it up. This place really benefits from new editors, and there are doubtless many projects waiting for your interest, expertise and attention. Welcome! [[User:Wow Mollu|Wow Mollu]] ([[User talk:Wow Mollu|talk]]) 06:08, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Kind of Author bio page ==

I wrote a novel. Signed a contrac with an editor and it is going to be published this month, or begining of january.

I tried to create a page of the Author, but was not approved.

How should i proceed?

Thanks [[User:Rmrribeiro|Rmrribeiro]] ([[User talk:Rmrribeiro|talk]]) 16:14, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

:Do you mean that you want to make a page about yourself, or that you paid another user to make one? Either way, this is [[WP:COI]]. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Talk to me!''']]) ([[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|Slim Shady]]) 16:16, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Rmrribeiro|Rmrribeiro]] You have been trying to create an [[WP:AUTO|autobiography]], which is ''strongly'' discouraged for the reasons given at that link. We have a [[WP:BLP|policy on biographies]] which you ignored: all facts stated must have inline citations to reliable published sources. To demonstrate that you are [[WP:NAUTHOR|a wikinotable author]] you would need multiple sources meeting [[WP:42|these criteria]]. I suggest you stick to novel writing for now and let someone else create your biography when appropriate sources are available. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:24, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you for your answer.
::I though that it was normal, as i see a lot of published "small" authors bios here.
::Your last sentence was not that friendly, but i will follow your advice.
::regards,
::rmribeiro [[User:Rmrribeiro|Rmrribeiro]] ([[User talk:Rmrribeiro|talk]]) 16:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::::[[u|rmribeiro]] Many articles - especially older - exist but do not meet current standards for verifying notability. When the book is published and is reviewed, the reviews may serve as references for an article about the book, but not necessarily about you, the author, unless you are the primary subject of published articles. Mike's reply was perhaps a bit short on tact, but it is in line with Wikipedia guidelines, to wit, if your writings end up making you sufficiently famous, then someone with no connect to you may decides to write an article. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 04:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::Thanks David. I understand, and it makes perfect sence. I also understand Mike´s answer, because you guys must see alot of marketing and self promotion atempts.
:::::Regards and keep up the good work [[User:Rmrribeiro|Rmrribeiro]] ([[User talk:Rmrribeiro|talk]]) 19:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Pronouns ==

I was patrolling recent changes and saw someone edit a person's biography section by adding their pronouns. Is this something that should be removed or what? I didn't mess with it because I thought, personally, it might be useful information; however, I am no policy maker and wanted to seek advice for the future. [[User:Jan Silija|Jan Silija]] ([[User talk:Jan Silija|talk]]) 16:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Jan Silija|Jan Silija]], If possible please link the article here. [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 16:27, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]], here it is: [[Yiftach Fehige]]. [[User:Jan Silija|Jan Silija]] ([[User talk:Jan Silija|talk]]) 16:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Jan Silija|Jan Silija]] It's all good. The subject is referred as "he" in the article and a lookup on the [https://vic.utoronto.ca/about-victoria/victoria-college-fellows-and-associates/fehige/ university's website] verifies it. There is no need of explicitly mentioning pronouns. Happy Editing! [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 16:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::{{ec}} @[[User:Jan Silija|Jan Silija]]: Someone else reverted the addition of "(He/Him)" in [[Special:Diff/1188313451|this edit]]. The usage of "he" and "his" throughout the article are sufficient. For more information, see [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity]]. Of higher importance is that the article has no references. Happy editing! [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 17:00, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::::@[[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] Should it be blanked or deleted? per [[WP:NOSOURCES]] [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 17:10, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]]: The edit was reverted, and I think that is sufficient. [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 17:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yeah, but there are no sources to support the info written. There are only primary sources (uni profile) available. [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 17:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]]: You asked "Should it be blanked or deleted", and maybe I misinterpreted what you meant by "it". I was thinking about "it" meant the addition of "(He/Him)" to the article, which was reverted. If you meant "Should the entire article be blanked or deleted", then that's outside the scope of this discussion of pronouns. Feel free to nominate the article for deletion if you think that's appropriate. [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 22:19, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::This is a full professor in a book-writing field - it would be extraordinary if he did not meet our notability guidelines. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 01:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Apologies for not mentioning clearly [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 03:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:YUP ! it should be removed from the article. 😂[[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]][[User:84Swagahh|'''84Swagahh''']][[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]]😂 17:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::it was, by me. Though perhaps something could be done with the infobox. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 17:40, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Football talk ==

Good evening, I wanted to ask if in the English Wikipedia there were generic talk page on a given subject such as in the Italian edition, in particular I would be interested in one about football. Thank you very much and kind regards [[User:14 novembre|14 novembre]] ([[User talk:14 novembre|talk]]) 20:44, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

:see [[wp:football]] or its talk page, but also keep [[wp:notforum]] in mind '''[[User:Cogsan|cogsan]] [[User talk:Cogsan|(give me attention)]] [[Special:Contributions/Cogsan|(see my deeds)]]''' 22:01, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Cogsan|Cogsan]] Thanks, this is what I was looking for. Kind regards [[User:14 novembre|14 novembre]] ([[User talk:14 novembre|talk]]) 12:53, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== wikipedia ==

hi! I'm not reporting anything I just have a question for the people at Wikipedia:
How fast does the information get put on Wikipedia? (like does it take a few minutes, days, ect)
(also i really want to say hi!!) [[User:Jude marrero|Jude marrero]] ([[User talk:Jude marrero|talk]]) 21:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

:{{u|Jude marrero}} Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. Generally, an edit is live the moment you click "publish changes". If you are referring to submitting a draft, it does take time for a review. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 21:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::a quick question about the same topic: is Wikipedia information from one source (like Google only) or multiple sources? [[User:Jude marrero|Jude marrero]] ([[User talk:Jude marrero|talk]]) 21:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Google is '''not''' a source; but it links to other sites, many of which are [[WP:reliable sources]] with a reputation for independence, editorial control and fact checking, but many of which are blogs, promotional sites, [[predatory publishers]] and other unreliable sources - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 21:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Jude marrero|Jude marrero]], almost everything on Wikipedia is written by volunteer editors, who may research the topics they write about however they like. You can see what sources editors used to write each article by looking at the "References" section or following the footnotes in each article. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 01:37, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:Information gets put on Wikipedia when someone puts in on Wikipedia. How long that takes is highly variable. For topics that get a lot of attention, this could be within minutes of the news breaking; for obscure topics, it could take years, if it ever gets added. Usually it's somewhere in-between. [[User:Sollyucko|Solomon Ucko]] ([[User talk:Sollyucko|talk]]) 21:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
::Sports results may be added within seconds. I have done it myself with the edit already written and ready to save. If I'm watching the event live and rooting for the winner then it can be satisfying. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 23:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::The article avout Henry Kissinger was converted from "is" to "was" within minutes after his death became general news. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 04:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::{{courtesy link|Henry Kissinger}} [[User:QuickQuokka|QuickQuokka]] [⁠[[User talk:QuickQuokka|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/QuickQuokka|contribs]]] 08:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:you mean like, info? There's hundreds of edits a minute, so pretty fast. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Talk to me!''']]) ([[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|Stone Free]]) 14:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::Tech note: the Wikimedia set of sites (not just English Wikipedia) lately has a typical average of a little over 20 edits per second, and that easily spikes much higher when there is a major world event. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 15:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Alt Accounts ==

I see many users use alternative accounts when using public internet. Should i do the same or does it not make a difference in terms of account safety? [[User:Subariba|Subariba]] ([[User talk:Subariba|talk]]) 21:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

:[[WP:SOCK]]: {{blockquote |To maintain accountability and increase community trust, editors are generally expected to use only one account.}} [[User:Sollyucko|Solomon Ucko]] ([[User talk:Sollyucko|talk]]) 21:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

::That's a very unhelpful contribution, Sollyucko. Alternate accounts are legitimate per [[WP:SOCKLEGIT]]. One stated reason is: "''Security: You may register an alternative account for use when accessing Wikipedia through a public computer, connecting to an unsecured network, or other scenarios when there's a risk of your account being compromised.''" It is probably for individuals to assess for themselves the level of risk associated with public networks they use, and to determine the need or otherwise for an alt account. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 22:12, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Do not edit the same article with more than one account. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 04:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Even that's not the case. [[WP:BADSOCK]] lists "inappropriate uses of alternative accounts". On the two accounts one article issue it says "''Editors may not use more than one account to contribute to the same page or discussion in a way that suggests they are multiple people. Contributing to the same page with clearly linked, legitimate, alternative accounts (e.g. editing the same page with your main and public computer account or editing a page using your main account that your bot account edited) is not forbidden.''" --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 04:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::{{re|Subariba|Sollyucko|David notMD}} I believe that it's only really a problem if you're using sockpuppets deceptively or for some personal gain. As @[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] pointed out, socks are permitted if it's for security reasons. Just make sure that it's clear it's a sockpuppet. [[User:QuickQuokka|QuickQuokka]] [⁠[[User talk:QuickQuokka|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/QuickQuokka|contribs]]] 08:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::And if I decide to make a new account will the same email I use for this account work? [[User:Subariba|Subariba]] ([[User talk:Subariba|talk]]) 13:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Subariba|Subariba]] Yes, it will. The account name is used to log on, not an email address. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 13:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Advice for attempted de-orphan category ==

Greetings, For "Category:Attempted de-orphan from December 2023" (57 articles), a new editor (User talk:Orange sticker) added the "att=December 2023" wikicode replacing the original orphan tag's date. Question: should these be Reverted? Or manually fix each one? I did fix one article myself (Yard Kings). What would be the best option? Note: I'm on vacation now, but do daily check watchlist. Regards, [[User:JoeNMLC|JoeNMLC]] ([[User talk:JoeNMLC|talk]]) 02:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:{{courtesy link|Category:Attempted de-orphan from December 2023}} {{u|[[User:Sdkb|'''Sdkb''']]}} [[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']] 04:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:JoeNMLC|JoeNMLC]], it's a little hard for me to tell exactly what's going on without links, but when I checked the user's contributions, the first thing I found was an instance of them removing the tag from a page that hadn't actually been de-orphaned. They should be watched to make sure they're receiving appropriate help and, if they're not receptive, that the disruption is limited. I'd suggest posting at [[WT:DEORPHAN]], as folks there may be more familiar with that area of the project than we are. Cheers, {{u|[[User:Sdkb|'''Sdkb''']]}} [[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']] 04:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::{{Done}} - fyi, for these articles, I fixed by inserting the original orphan date back into the tag. Regards, [[User:JoeNMLC|JoeNMLC]] ([[User talk:JoeNMLC|talk]]) 16:24, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== [PERSON] has been covered by [MAGAZINE 1], [MAGAZINE 2], [MAGAZINE 3], etc. ==

Hello I was wondering if this sentence structure is always considered puffery for a biography article and if so I can delete it. I do know '''be bold''', but was looking for a paragraph in MOS category to justify removing this sentence I see in even well-maintained biographies. [[User:बिनोद थारू|बिनोद थारू]] ([[User talk:बिनोद थारू|talk]]) 04:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:बिनोद थारू|बिनोद थारू]]; great question! We [[WP:IAR|tend to avoid absolutes]] on Wikipedia, so I hesitate to say always, but that sentence does read as quite puffy to me. One reason it may exist is that it's someone attempting to establish notability for a subject by linking to the best sources on them. If the sentence is supported by refs that look high-quality, you could try removing the sentence and just moving the refs to after the first sentence of the article. Otherwise, just take it out.
:Regarding policy-and-guideline-based rationale for removing it, there are a few different things you could cite. [[WP:PUFFERY]] is certainly one. Another would be [[WP:DUE]], as articles are supposed to reflect coverage in secondary sources, and while a magazine profile might normally be a secondary source, it's a primary source for the fact that it has covered that person. And so unless e.g. Magazine 2 have written about the fact that the person was covered in Magazine 1, there isn't secondary coverage.
:Hope that helps! Cheers, {{u|[[User:Sdkb|'''Sdkb''']]}} [[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']] 04:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

::I think there's also a legitimate "does removing the sentence improve the encyclopedia" question to be answered. If we take the [[Mike Hollingshead]] article, for instance, I'm not convinced that we do anyone a favour by removing the sentence here:
::{{blockquote|Mike Hollingshead is an American professional storm chaser, photographer and videographer from Blair, Nebraska.[1] His work has been covered by NPR,[2] numerous photography magazines and websites, and on the cover of National Geographic.[3] It is also featured in films and television, such as Take Shelter, The Fifth Estate, and the series finale of Dexter. In 2008 Hollingshead released his first book titled Adventures in Tornado Alley: The Storm Chasers with co-author Eric Nguyen.[4][5][6][7][8] }}
::A core WP policy is [[WP:IAR]]: ''If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it''. Examples of users following their conception of the rules, but degrading the product, are all too frequent. Please don't be one of those. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 05:04, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::In my opinion ''numerous photography magazines and websites'' does not convey any information, so it would be better to remove it. Same is the NPR bit since it's a standard news outlet. But Nat GEO cover is very relevant for photographer so can be left included. [[User:बिनोद थारू|बिनोद थारू]] ([[User talk:बिनोद थारू|talk]]) 05:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::It does convey information. Citations are not provided for the claims, but then it is not highly likely the claims will be challenged. So I do need to put it to you: what's so damn important about your opinion? Who died and made you king? --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 05:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::? [[User:बिनोद थारू|बिनोद थारू]] ([[User talk:बिनोद थारू|talk]]) 05:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::You are presuming your judgement is better than the person who wrote that part of the article or, come to it, mine. You are boldly stating that a sentence which conveys information does not convey information. Does it occur to you that you may not be correct? --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 05:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Yes I would say am 60%-70% the times correct. So maybe some decision fall into 30%-40%. [[User:बिनोद थारू|बिनोद थारू]] ([[User talk:बिनोद थारू|talk]]) 05:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Those odds, inflated as they are by your own confirmation bias, do not seem great to me. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 05:27, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:[[User:बिनोद थारू|बिनोद थारू]], good question. Statements such as that in the title of this thread strike me as near worthless. If somebody was "featured", or if his work was "covered", in some issue of some magazine or wherever, then decide if the feature or coverage is worth describing, and if it is then describe it. The article [[Mike Hollingshead]] says that "In 2008, Hollingshead released his first book titled ''Adventures in Tornado Alley: The Storm Chasers'' with co-author Eric Nguyen" and points to four reviews of this; summaries of the reviews would be far more valuable. I'm not volunteering to do this myself (either because I'm up to my ears in another article or because I'm a lazy bastard; take your pick). -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 12:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC) (sixty to seventy percent of the time right, maybe)
::{{u|बिनोद थारू|बिनोद थारू}}, I agree with {{u|Hoary}}. If a source says something relevant about the subject, tell the reader what it says. If it doesn't, don't bother citing it. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 07:16, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Converting articles from different language? ==

Hi! Is there any specific policies about converting articles from another language? My draft [[Draft:Werther Dell'Edera|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Werther_Dell%27Edera]] is drastically different from the Italian's page https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werther_Dell%27Edera (partly because I recently found it) [[User:ALtered000|ALtered000]] ([[User talk:ALtered000|talk]]) 07:34, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:ALtered000|ALtered000]] there is no need to structure articles the same across languages. In fact sometimes the communities have different preferences for article structure across languages. But if you feel confident you can translate content from that article to your draft as long as you provide attribution. If you don't provide attribution then that would be plagiarism. [[User:Immanuelle|'''Immanuel'''le]] ❤️💚💙 [[User_talk:Immanuelle|(talk to the cutest Wikipedian)]] 07:53, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Immanuelle|Immanuelle]] Cool! Do I provide attribution by linking the Italian article itself as a cite/source or just mentioning it in the edit notes? P.S. anyway to get rid of this question as it's resolved? [[User:ALtered000|ALtered000]] ([[User talk:ALtered000|talk]]) 08:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:ALtered000|ALtered000]] do not cite the article in the sources, since it is not a source, you are just adapting the written content. But you can do it in a variety of ways. The preferred one is linking the revision you are taking it from which in this case is this one https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Werther_Dell%27Edera&oldid=136738421 but there are a variety of ways to do it such as mentioning it in the edit history, or linking in the edit history [[User:Immanuelle|'''Immanuel'''le]] ❤️💚💙 [[User_talk:Immanuelle|(talk to the cutest Wikipedian)]] 08:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Immanuelle|Immanuelle]] Okay! Consider this resolved thanks for your help Immanuelle! [[User:ALtered000|ALtered000]] ([[User talk:ALtered000|talk]]) 08:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|ALtered000}} More Info can be found at [[Help:Translation]], especially the part about license requirements. [[User:Lectonar|Lectonar]] ([[User talk:Lectonar|talk]]) 11:11, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Draft acceptance ==

Hello! I have been trying to get this article [[Draft:Miguel Di Pizio|Miguel Di Pizio]] into the main space but keeps getting rejected from reviewers. Is there anything I could do to get it accepted? Or should I just wait until more information is released? I have no idea what is wrong with the article in terms of wikipedia guidelines. [[User:JC Kotisow|JC Kotisow]] ([[User talk:JC Kotisow|talk]]) 09:19, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:MORE INFO: Di Pizio is described as playing for [[Australia men's national under-17 soccer team]]. He shows up in the roster list as a red Wikilink, as do most of the players, but a few are blue Wikilinks. So, is accepting this draft arbitrary, depending on the reviewer, or is there some nuance to the references for the accepted players that got those articles accepted? [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 09:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::AH HA! The blue Wikilink articles about players were created in Mainspace, i.e., not through AfC. We need an expert football editor to opine on notability of junior athletes. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 09:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::As [[WP:NFOOTY]] no longer applies, we basically fall back to [[WP:GNG]]. -- [[User:DoubleGrazing|DoubleGrazing]] ([[User talk:DoubleGrazing|talk]]) 13:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Thus, very unlikely that any teenage football athlete meets [[WP:GNG]], and someone with more energy than I would nominate the other athletes' articles bluelinked at [[Australia men's national under-17 soccer team]] to be deleted. Life is harsh. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:37, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Question about CTOP restrictions ==

Hey all,

I like to process requests for article quality assessments. Someone asked me to reassess an article that pertains to AA2. I did so but now I'm wondering if I made a mistake there. I checked the listed page restrictions and didn't see a problem as I didn't make any reverts or anything but I was also not extended confirmed at the time and I know that's a restriction. Should I have deferred it to someone else or am I in the clear? [[User:Pear1020|Pear 2.0]] [[User talk:Pear1020|(say hi!)]] 13:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:I'd say this specific case is moot, since you're now extended confirmed. In general, I would advise that non-EC editors not do quality assessments on articles covered by community-imposed EC restrictions. It seems more like an "internal project discussion" than the "constructive comments" or "edit requests related to articles" that are permitted by the restriction. It's a grey area, as far as I'm aware. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 13:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::Alright! Thank you, I'll keep that in mind. I should've checked more thoroughly before assessing. [[User:Pear1020|Pear 2.0]] [[User talk:Pear1020|(say hi!)]] 14:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Can't login via Android ==

I can't login while using Chrome on Android, when I literally push "Log in" on Wikipedia's mobile homepage the side bar just disappears again, and nothing else happens. [[Special:Contributions/2600:6C50:4800:1052:5CB2:B046:D30D:FE48|2600:6C50:4800:1052:5CB2:B046:D30D:FE48]] ([[User talk:2600:6C50:4800:1052:5CB2:B046:D30D:FE48|talk]]) 14:37, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[Special:Contributions/2600:6C50:4800:1052:5CB2:B046:D30D:FE48|2600:6C50:4800:1052:5CB2:B046:D30D:FE48]] See [[Wikipedia:COOKIES]] for troubleshooting steps. [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Need help editing an article ==

[[Prevention Project Dunkelfeld]] is a group that offers therapy to pedophiles. The sources make that clear, and only use this phrase. I am automatically prevented from replacing the weasel word "chronophile", which isn't in the sources for pedophile, which is. Can anyone explain why this isn't allowed? [[User:Big Money Threepwood|Big Money Threepwood]] ([[User talk:Big Money Threepwood|talk]]) 15:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:[[User:Big Money Threepwood|Big Money Threepwood]] According to the [[WP:Edit filter|edit filter]] log you added [[Special:AbuseLog/36511528|pedophile]] to the text, which tripped the edit filter for common vandalism words (as you can guess, 'pedophile' is commonly used for vandalism). In this case, you can report the false positive at [[WP:EFFP]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 15:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi [[User:Big Money Threepwood]]. The article actually previously did use the correct word, but then someone changed it (among a set of related changes that all look poor). I undid them all. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 15:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you!
:: [[User:Big Money Threepwood|Big Money Threepwood]] ([[User talk:Big Money Threepwood|talk]]) 22:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== How to establish your own novel ==

I want to be a novel writer [[User:S S ngwenya|S S ngwenya]] ([[User talk:S S ngwenya|talk]]) 16:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:Hello. This isn't the forum to seek help with your career path. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:try asking a publisher, not Wikipedia ([[WP:NOT FORUM]]) [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Talk to me!''']]) ([[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|Stone Free]]) 17:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== submitted draft article ==

I submitted a draft article for review about a week ago.
How long does it normally take to receive an initial response?
Is the response made directly to my email address? [[User:Legendt9455|Legendt9455]] ([[User talk:Legendt9455|talk]]) 16:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:Legendt9455|Legendt9455]]: if you mean {{courtesy link|Draft:Draft "Robert E. (Bob) Bourke Jr."}}, then you haven't yet submitted that; you need to click on the blue 'submit' button. -- [[User:DoubleGrazing|DoubleGrazing]] ([[User talk:DoubleGrazing|talk]]) 16:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::I cannot locate a blue "submit" button.
::I believe I clicked the blue "submit" button on 11/28! [[User:Legendt9455|Legendt9455]] ([[User talk:Legendt9455|talk]]) 17:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hello and welcome. If you are referring to [[Draft:Draft "Robert E. (Bob) Bourke Jr."]], you have not actually submitted it yet. You need to click the "submit your draft for review!" button. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Legendt9455|Legendt9455]] Don't submit it in its current state or it will be rapidly declined. You need to read and comply with the policy [[WP:BLP|relating to biographies]] and this means you must cite the information correctly. See [[WP:REFB]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::.... you also need to decide whether you are writing about Bourke or about [[Studebaker]]. If the former, a lot of your current text is not on-topic. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::That page relates to biographies of "living persons."
:::Is there a link to biographies of deceased persons? [[Special:Contributions/2600:8800:A800:B2A:DC6C:D7B3:8650:688F|2600:8800:A800:B2A:DC6C:D7B3:8650:688F]] ([[User talk:2600:8800:A800:B2A:DC6C:D7B3:8650:688F|talk]]) 16:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::I did click on the blue "submit" button on 11/28.
::I cannot locate a "submit your draft for review" button now.
::Any suggestions? [[Special:Contributions/2600:8800:A800:B2A:DC6C:D7B3:8650:688F|2600:8800:A800:B2A:DC6C:D7B3:8650:688F]] ([[User talk:2600:8800:A800:B2A:DC6C:D7B3:8650:688F|talk]]) 16:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:the time varies. When I first submitted my draft, it said up to 4 weeks. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Talk to me!''']]) ([[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|Stone Free]]) 17:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::FYI - There used to be a backlog of thousands of unreviewed drafts. The system is not a queue. At that time submitted drafts got a note that it could be months. Currently a tremendous effort by many reviewers shortened the list to under 200. I echo the advice not to submit your draft until you fix the obvious; otherwise, you are just wasting a reviewer's time. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Draft declined ==

how do I submit a biography of a well known plastic surgeon? [[User:Drwilliammiami|Drwilliammiami]] ([[User talk:Drwilliammiami|talk]]) 16:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:Hello. You have already attempted to do this, and it was deleted as promotional. Furthermore, you seem to be writing about yourself. Please read the [[WP:AUTO|autobiography policy]] as to why that is highly discouraged. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::Tried twice, speedy deleted twice. Unless "Dr. William" (you?) is as famous as surgeons listed at [[Surgeon]] it is unlikely that a third attempt could succeed. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:19, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Drwilliammiami}} Note that "famous" isn't quite right, it's whether there are sufficient independent reliable sources providing significant coverage of the surgeon to meet Wikipedia's inclusion criteria, called "notability". See [[WP:NBIO]] for more information. [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 02:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Be aware that if you do succeed in creating an article - by including reliable source references - you do not "own" that article. If there are publications about reputationally negative events, for example a malpractice suit, that could be added to the article by other Wikipedia editors. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 08:06, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Patents as 'noteworthy information' ==

I'm working on improving [[American Biotech]] and, while it seems they have a fairly widespread product, there isn't much information about it other than the same press release on a bunch of different websites. I'm considering deleting the '''Patents''' section altogether. For companies like this, is it useful to include information like this that is just a list of products or patents, or to cite an otherwise uncontroversial FDA product approval? [[User:Reconrabbit|Reconrabbit]] ([[User talk:Reconrabbit|talk]]) 17:34, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Reconrabbit|Reconrabbit]], with sources like that, I'd remove it per [[WP:ABOUTSELF]]/[[WP:PATENTS]]. If no one else is interested in their patents, neither is WP. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 18:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:{{Ec}} @[[User:Reconrabbit|Reconrabbit]], our general approach is that we want to reflect what has been written in secondary sources, so if it hasn't appeared outside of press releases and primary sources like FDA documents, then we don't need it. [[WP:NOTCATALOG]] may also be relevant. Cheers, {{u|[[User:Sdkb|'''Sdkb''']]}} [[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']] 18:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== Dobroflot ==

I wanted to leave a note on this artile's talk page, but that seems impossible. Any idea Whst I am doing wrong? Perhaps the comment snhould be made to one of the subgroups?[[User:Oldsilenus|Oldsilenus]] ([[User talk:Oldsilenus|talk]]) 18:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hello, @[[User:Oldsilenus|Oldsilenus]]. Could you describe your problem more precisely? When look at [[Talk:Dobroflot]], I don't see any obvious problem. -- [[User:Maddy from Celeste|Maddy from Celeste]] ([[User talk:Maddy from Celeste|WAVEDASH]]) 19:00, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks and sorry for not entering [[Dobroflot]] (with braces). Usually on the talk page when one moves below the top banners, the cursor changes (ton I) so that a comment can be added. This does not happen on my screen. There seems to be no way to enter anything below the Wikiproject Russia entry. [[User:Oldsilenus|Oldsilenus]] ([[User talk:Oldsilenus|talk]]) 19:17, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Right. There should be a button labeled "New section" or "+" at the top of your screen which will add a new section. Alternatively, you could simply click "edit" and add a section manually. -- [[User:Maddy from Celeste|Maddy from Celeste]] ([[User talk:Maddy from Celeste|WAVEDASH]]) 19:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:Click "New Section" at the top of the page. [[User:Subariba|Subariba]] ([[User talk:Subariba|talk]]) 19:04, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::OOPS! You ar correct I wasn't in "Edit." A bad day today [[User:Oldsilenus|Oldsilenus]] ([[User talk:Oldsilenus|talk]]) 19:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

== [[Alethea]] ==

Hi, I recently removed an image of Jodie Foster from [[Alethea]]. As stated in my edit summary, I don't think that the image is appropriate. Another editor reverted my removal of the image (with no edit summary). Could someone here please take a look and adjudicate. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/76.14.122.5|76.14.122.5]] ([[User talk:76.14.122.5|talk]]) 22:36, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
::Someone else removed the image. Personally, I agree it does not belong. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 23:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
:Would {{u|Bookworm857158367}} like to comment? [[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 23:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
: please discuss this at [[Talk:Alethea]] [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 01:06, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::I added the image because the character that she played was the reason for the increase in usage of the name that year and the following year. The picture is of her as a child actress during that time frame. A picture of her in the Alethea role would be preferable but I didn’t find a free image on the Wikimedia commons. Nonetheless, I think a picture of her at the age she played the character is appropriate. I object to the removal of the image and reverted the edits. [[User:Bookworm857158367|Bookworm857158367]] ([[User talk:Bookworm857158367|talk]]) 04:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Reversing my opinion, as the temporary increase in popularity of the name circa 1973 is linked in the text to the appearance of Foster's so-named character in a popular TV show, even if only for one episode. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 07:50, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::@[[User:David notMD|David notMD]] Since the ref is imdb, and doesn't say anything about temporary increase in popularity of the name circa 1973, how about removing everything about Foster-Athea from that article? [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 08:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::The use of the name increased after the TV appearance, per the other mentions in the article. I continue to object. [[User:Bookworm857158367|Bookworm857158367]] ([[User talk:Bookworm857158367|talk]]) 13:57, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation. And just because something is online, it doesn't follow it's a good WP-source. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 14:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Started a discussion at [[Talk:Alethea]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 08:50, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::I have no skin in this game (my daughter's name is Rachel). [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 08:57, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::Hm, now you made me remember [https://friends.fandom.com/wiki/Althea Althea], but apparently that name is unrelated. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::I removed the image again. The link is extremely tenuous, and mostly original research. The name and Jodie foster aren't related, or Jodie would be the name we are talking about. Bookworms should probably let someone else make edits to the page [[User:Big Money Threepwood|Big Money Threepwood]] ([[User talk:Big Money Threepwood|talk]]) 05:28, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Question about consensus ==

Hello! I've been involved in several discussions about moves or mergers over the years where it seems that a lone dissenting voice causes the discussion to end in "no consensus", which is as good as saying the result is "oppose": i.e., nothing changes. Is this a general rule? I know it's not exactly a vote or numbers game, but if say two people support with arguments and one person opposes with arguments (and I'm not even getting into the realm of flawed or simplistic arguments!), does this generally yield "no consensus", thus killing whatever the proposal is? Is there something more technical the closing editor/administrator looks at than this? (I admit that it has been frustrating to me personally, and I'm just looking for some clarity. In more than one case, an editor has "opposed" one time and then never participated in the discussion ever again; this seems to be an easy way for any editor to kill thoughtful proposals: oppose and then ghost). Thanks! [[User:Wolfdog|Wolfdog]] ([[User talk:Wolfdog|talk]]) 00:01, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hello @[[User:Wolfdog|Wolfdog]] and welcome to the teahouse. A few thoughts from me:
:* "no consensus" may effectively look as "oppose" in result, but what it really means is to "keep the status quo".
:* {{xt|if say two people support with arguments and one person opposes with arguments}}: I think Wikipedia expects those who participate in the discussion to engage in debate and conversation as a way to build consensus. If people just "vote" and not engage with each other, then no consensus is generated.
:* {{xt|an editor has "opposed" one time and then never participated in the discussion ever again}}: I agree that is very frustrating. I personally would not care much from the opposition. Provide your rationale in full would add more credit to you when the clerk closes the discussion.
:Cheers, --[[User:TheLonelyPather|''The Lonely Pather'']] ([[User talk:TheLonelyPather|talk]]) 01:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Wolfdog|Wolfdog]] Achieving consensus is an important Wikipedia policy as described at [[WP:Consensus]]. It would be unusual in my experience for a single dissenting voice to prevent good arguments from winning through and we would almost never delete articles via [[WP:AfD]] if that were the case, since someone almost always wants retention. Discussions about moves are more likely to end in a decision to retain the status quo because one solution is just to create a [[WP:Redirect]] at the alternative title. If you have specific cases where you think the result was ridiculous, then the policy page describes how that can be challenged. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 11:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks for both of your responses. I think the feeling is more frustration than ridiculousness. It's more the "ghosting" that irritates me -- I'm always up for continuing the conversation (though I can think of one recent time when I was [[Information overload|infoloaded]] or "TLDR'd" out of all energy to continue participating!). Obviously I feel the results of certain discussions were not for the best, but that goes without saying whenever I've been the nominator. Sometimes that lone opponent gets ya! [[User:Wolfdog|Wolfdog]] ([[User talk:Wolfdog|talk]]) 02:02, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:::[[User:Wolfdog|Wolfdog]], It's definitely something that's played (and ultimately, sometimes misplayed) by ear—but there's a certain point where everyone has made their respective points and no one has been particularly swayed or outmoded among the interlocutors or audience, and at that point it's often best to close as no consensus. Usually, I think closers are pretty okay at sensing when one interlocutor was just wordier as opposed to having a better point or having more agreement, but it's certainly frustrating when that's not the case. [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 03:03, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Drafting ==

How do I make a draft about something? [[User:Tailscraft|Tailscraft]] ([[User talk:Tailscraft|talk]]) 10:16, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:Hello and welcome. The easiest way is to use the [[WP:WIZARD|Article Wizard]]. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 10:23, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:You appear to have already made a draft, so perhaps I misunderstood your question? [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 10:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Tailscraft|Tailscraft]] The issue with your [[Draft:HShop]] is that it ignores a key pillar of Wikipedia, namely that we insist articles are about topics which reach a threshold of [[WP:GNG|wikinotability]]. That means that drafts must include evidence from sources that are [[WP:INDEPENDENT|independent]] of the topic and meet other criteria summarised [[WP:42|here]]. Your draft only had citations to the website of HShop themselves, which is not enough. Please read [[WP:YFA]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 11:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== add sources to "Education" and "Events and exhibitions" sections ==

How to add sources to "Education" and "Events and exhibitions" sections in article? where I can upload diplomas and certificates [[User:Khanlar Asadullayev|Khanlar Asadullayev]] ([[User talk:Khanlar Asadullayev|talk]]) 11:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Khanlar Asadullayev|Khanlar Asadullayev]] Welcome to the Teahouse. I assume this is about [[Draft:KHanlar Asadullayev]] which appears to be your attempt at an [[WP:AUTO|autobiography]]. Writing your autobiography is ''strongly discouraged'' for the reasons mentioned at the link. You have run into exactly one of the problems. You would like to cite evidence that you have had a particular education and held various exhibitions BUT you lack published sources that say you do. You are writing your draft [[WP:BACKWARDS|backwards]] and need to read that linked essay to see why that won't work. I'm afraid that it is highly unlikely that any acceptable autobiography will result and [[WP:PROUD|you may not like the outcome in the long term if it did]]. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:12, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::.... incidentally, by uploading a very high-resolution copy of your painting to Commons at [[:File:Melburn by Khanlar A..jpg]] you have given permission to anyone to use that image for any purpose, including commercially, for example as a greeting card, provided they cite the source. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== QUESTIONS ABOUT WRITTEN ARTICLES ==

Why two of my written historical articles edited todays do not appeared in wikipedia? [[User:Pirro2023|Pirro2023]] ([[User talk:Pirro2023|talk]]) 12:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. Your edit history indicates that the only edit you made other than the above is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Edit_filter/False_positives/Reports&diff=prev&oldid=1188593794 this edit], and it wasn't to an article. Which articles did you edit? [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 12:23, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:You did make several attempts to edit your user page that were blocked by edit filters as spam. Your user page is not article space, but a place for you to tell about yourself as an editor or user. New accounts cannot directly create articles and must use the [[WP:WIZARD|article wizard]] to create and submit a draft- but creating a new article is the most difficult task to attempt on Wikipedia, and it is highly recommended that you first gain experience and knowledge by editing existing articles, to get an idea of what we are looking for- and to use the [[WP:ADVENTURE|new user tutorial]]. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 12:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Bot advice ==

Hi, I would like to know whether a bot would be able to do this particular task or not. The task is to replace the existing format with the template like I did here on my sandbox to explain it better: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1188598310]

The following articles: [[2004 Andhra Pradesh Legislative Assembly election]] and [[2009 Andhra Pradesh Legislative Assembly election]] require these template changes. Since I am finding this monotonous task quite difficult to do it myself, I am looking for help probably a bot might help I believe? Any info or help is appreciated. Thank you [[User:456legend|'''456legend''']] ([[User talk:456legend|talk]]) 12:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:Hi [[User:456legend|456legend]], Welcome to the Teahouse. I think this will be better answered at [[Wikipedia:Bot requests]]. Cheers <3 [[User:Jeraxmoira|Jeraxmoira]] ([[User talk:Jeraxmoira|talk]]) 20:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you [[User:456legend|'''456legend''']] ([[User talk:456legend|talk]]) 05:53, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== What to do when multiple reliable sources publish misleading information? ==

In regards to [[Dave the Diver|Dave the Diver - Wikipedia]] this article. An administrator previously threatened to [[Talk:Dave the Diver#:~:text=Why%20are%20you%20lying%3F%20%22It%E2%80%99s%20a%20lovely%20single%2Dplayer%20adventure%20RPG%20made%20by%20indie%20developer%20MINTROCKET%22.%20Quoted%20in%20the%20citation%20itself.%20If%20you%20remove%20this%20again%2C%20I%20will%20ask%20an%20uninvolved%20administrator%20to%20block%20you.%20NinjaRobotPirate%20(talk)%2001%3A12%2C%202%20October%202023%20(UTC)|block]] a user for trying to edit the article to state that the game was not an indie game, when in fact it was. The admin's reasoning was due to reliable sources stating the game was "indie". Even though the incident appears to be resolved it makes me curious about how a similar incident would be solved for posterity [[User:Gamowebbed|🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳]] ([[User talk:Gamowebbed|talk]]) 13:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Gamowebbed|Gamowebbed]] [[WP:RSN]]. [[User:Doug Weller|Doug Weller]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 18:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Gamowebbed|Gamowebbed]] [[WP:DR]] might be of interest. When there's dispute about whether a source is reliable or not for any particular piece of information, and editors politely but persistently disagree, that tends to go to [[WP:DRN]] or [[WP:3O]] and maybe eventually [[WP:RFC]]. If someone is a dick about it or otherwise disrupts that process, that's when admins tend to step in. An admin shouldn't be using the threat of blocks to enforce a content issue like "what do the sources say". -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 12:18, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Meeting my host ==

meeting my hosts is so proud to meet them and one-day I might also meet them and I want to meet my hosts [[Special:Contributions/41.114.206.54|41.114.206.54]] ([[User talk:41.114.206.54|talk]]) 13:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:IP editor, this is a help location for editors who are using Wikipedia. Do you have a question about Wikipedia? [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 13:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== help (again) ==

a random IP has sent a weird talk page message on my talk page, about [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Babysharkboss2&oldid=1188602907 meeting some host]. idk what the host is, but they gave me what I assume to be a phone-number. '''help, I'm so confused, why does everyone go to ME first??''' [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Talk to me!''']]) ([[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|Stone Free]]) 13:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2]] The same IP placed a message here at the Teahouse just above your comment. I've no idea what they want but suggest you ignore them. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 13:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::im so confused, about why i'm the only person they talked to on theirr talk page, and why they would post something private like a phone-number, but i'll ignore them and wait for it to archive, thanks! [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 13:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Babysharkboss2}} The top of this page says "Meet your hosts". It's linked to [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Hosts]] which lists official Teahouse hosts but a user may not notice the link. Then it would be natural for the user to assume that anyone answering questions here is a host they can meet, and you have answered questions. If it was a common occurrence then we could consider a redesign but I haven't heard of a non-host being contacted in this way before so I think we should just ignore it. At least you have an explanation now. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 14:00, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::so like, they want to meet the [[WP:TH|Teahouse]] hosts? [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 14:03, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Babysharkboss2}} Yes, but only after misunderstanding something. They apparently thought "[[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Hosts|Meet your hosts]]" at top of the page meant "You can meet users who answer questions here." It only means "Click this link to see a list of Teahouse hosts." [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 14:16, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|Babysharkboss2}} You are allowed to remove the post by [[WP:REMOVED]]. I have removed the apparent contact information above. I suggest you do the same if you don't remove the whole post. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 14:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::i removed the persons phone number from my talk page, and i'll wait for my bottom archive it. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 14:29, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I have no CLUE what you'll have to do ! [[User:84Swagahh|84Swagahh]] ([[User talk:84Swagahh|talk]]) 16:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::That's not a terribly helpful comment, @[[User:84Swagahh|84Swagahh]]. Do you have a question about using or editing Wikipedia? [[Special:Contributions/57.140.16.39|57.140.16.39]] ([[User talk:57.140.16.39|talk]]) 16:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::they don't, check my talk page. [[User:84Swagahh|84Swagahh]] has been talking about unrelated stuff on a old thread. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 16:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::@[[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2]] They clearly know a lot about editing as they used piping in their 7th edit. [[User:Doug Weller|Doug Weller]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 18:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::well, [[WP:pipe|doing something like piping]] isn't unique to Wikipedia, so it could be that they know editing source, but not much about [[Wikipedia]] itself. I only know piping from editing in [[Fandom (website)|Fandom]], so like, some things can be learned anywhere. But yeah, I don't think they are truly new to wikipedia. but hey, [[WP:AGF|have faith, I guess.]] [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 18:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::Look on my talk page, the other person asked about that and I explained it to him ! 😂[[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]][[User:84Swagahh|'''84Swagahh''']][[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]]😂 18:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::i know, it was two people in fact, and I have your talkpage on my watchlist. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|Talk to me]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|Waif Me!]]) 18:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::::ok, well also, I clicked on the piping link from your reply and I didn't realize it was something complicated. I used the visual editor and I selected the text I wanted, clicked the link icon and clicked the article I needed the link to. Next , I just clicked on my newly added link to change the actual text. 😂[[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]][[User:84Swagahh|'''84Swagahh''']][[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]]😂 18:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Page Approval ==

Hello,

There is a company mentioned on this page called 'Zego' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unicorn_startup_companies

They are one of the few companies on this list without a page, despite having more notability type mentions, the proposed page keeps getting refused, I was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions. Ive told more notable mentions, but I believe it already meets those requirement's and there isn't any more mentions to add. Here is the page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Zego_Insurance [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7C:6E04:A700:709C:CBA1:BC1F:2985|2A02:C7C:6E04:A700:709C:CBA1:BC1F:2985]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7C:6E04:A700:709C:CBA1:BC1F:2985|talk]]) 13:50, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:the reviewer left a note asking you to {{tq|see [[WP:CORPDEPTH]] and [[WP:NCOMPANY]].}} [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 13:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Gromphadorhina picea ==

I can't find any reliable sources for this, its a hissing cockroach that is commonly mistaken for other hissing cockroaches which is why there is little to no information about it, do you guys have any information about it? [[User:Username but name|Username but name]] ([[User talk:Username but name|talk]]) 15:12, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Username but name|Username but name]], try asking at [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 15:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Username but name|Username but name]] I asked Bing's new AI-driven search engine and it gave me [https://www.jungledragon.com/specie/2266/madagascar_hissing_cockroach.html this source] as well as a summary of other sources. Whether that's reliable or not is debatable. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Creating a new entry ==

How do I create a new entry? [[User:Dancetheater|Dancetheater]] ([[User talk:Dancetheater|talk]]) 16:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:What do you mean by {{tq|new entry[?]}}? Would you like to know how to make a ''page''? [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 16:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::Yes. I’m not sure of the terminology but the inclusion of a biographical profile of someone not currently included. [[User:Dancetheater|Dancetheater]] ([[User talk:Dancetheater|talk]]) 16:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::So you want to make a new page about a person? You just gotta go to (or, I recommend) the [[WP:Article Wizard|ALL MIGHT WIZARD]] and make a page. but If it's about a person, make sure it follows [[WP:BLP]] and has [[WP:RC|good sources]] [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 16:50, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::crap, wrong Rc. Make sure it has reliable sources, not recent changes, lol. [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 16:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:whats a new entry? 😂[[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]][[User:84Swagahh|'''84Swagahh''']][[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]]😂 16:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::[[Help:Your first article]] [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 16:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Wikipedia prefers the term "article" to "page", as the latter can be taken to imply that Wikipedia is social media. Articles are articles, but the associated Talk pages are pages. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 18:16, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::I was confused on what he was talking about when he said entry, so I replied asking what it meant. 😂[[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]][[User:84Swagahh|'''84Swagahh''']][[User talk:84Swagahh|🤣]]😂 18:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Notability guidelines ==

Where do I find notability guidelines? [[User:Dancetheater|Dancetheater]] ([[User talk:Dancetheater|talk]]) 16:47, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:[[Wikipedia:Notability]] for general guidelines, is there a specific category of article you're interested in? [[User:MicrobiologyMarcus|microbiologyMarcus]] (''[[User talk:MicrobiologyMarcus|petri dish]]·[[Special:Contributions/MicrobiologyMarcus|growths]]'') 16:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::The types of persons whose biographical information could be included in Wikipedia [[User:Dancetheater|Dancetheater]] ([[User talk:Dancetheater|talk]]) 16:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::you could make a page on someone, but that must be notable. {{tq|If reliable sources cover a person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual...}}<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability#Notable_topics_have_attracted_attention_over_a_sufficiently_significant_period_of_time</ref> [[User:Babysharkboss2|Babysharkboss2 was here!!]] ([[User talk:Babysharkboss2|'''Wr''']][[Special:Contributions/Babysharkboss2|ld]]) 16:57, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. The overall guidelines may be found at [[WP:N]]; that page will also link to narrower guidelines for certain areas(for example, [[WP:ORG|notable organizations]]). [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 16:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

:Also, if the person in question is alive or recently deceased, you need to take into account the special stipulations at [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]]. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/51.194.245.32|51.194.245.32]] ([[User talk:51.194.245.32|talk]]) 18:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

{{reftalk}}

== Is this song notable enough for an article? ==

I was thinking about creating an article for Die For Me by Post Malone featuring Future and Halsey from [[Hollywood's Bleeding|''Hollywood's Bleeding'']] and I wanted to know if it could be created into an article. The reasons that I have that constitute its creation are its popularity (one of the the most popular on the album, as well as the high charts and certifications) and Halsey's solo version which adds two new verses. Thanks! [[User:Rockboy1009|Rockboy1009]] ([[User talk:Rockboy1009|talk]]) 21:33, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:It depends on whether there are enough [[WP:reliable sources|reliable sources]] for the song in particular, and not just about the album! Cheers, good luck! [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 21:34, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::There are few sources about the original song by itself, but it is gone over in the many articles of Halsey's solo version. Would the solo version constitute its own article by itself? [[User:Rockboy1009|Rockboy1009]] ([[User talk:Rockboy1009|talk]]) 22:12, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::[[User:Rockboy1009|Rockboy1009]], usually if they are considered the same song, they are included in one article. See examples such as "[[The House of the Rising Sun]]", "[[Billie Jean]]", or "[[Old Town Road]]". Cheers! [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 22:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
::::So with those sources would the song be ok for an article? [[User:Rockboy1009|Rockboy1009]] ([[User talk:Rockboy1009|talk]]) 22:17, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::[[User:Rockboy1009|Rockboy1009]], yes, as long as you make the existence of a remix clear, I've edited my response above to include some examples you can compare with. [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 22:20, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

== Length ==

How long should a new article be before being published? [[User:LouieLumber|LouieLumber]] ([[User talk:LouieLumber|talk]]) 00:30, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

:There is not really any length requirements, but you should make sure that the article could be expanded beyond a single paragraph. i.e. there is enough info published in reliable sources to make a whole article about it. [[User:Ca|Ca]] [[User talk:Ca|talk to me!]] 00:38, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

::That - "''you should make sure that the article could be expanded beyond a single paragraph''" - is poor - which is to say wrong, invented, unhelpful - advice from [[User:Ca]]. There is no policy on length, beyond that an article must convey context, avoid being nonsense. Article subjects must be notable, and notability should be evidenced by reliable sources. That's it. A draft like [[Draft:Dave Nayak]] is perfectly long enough, but sadly the subject is not supported by reliable sources. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 00:42, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:::An article that cannot be expanded beyond a single paragraph is unlikely to be notable. [[User:Ca|Ca]] [[User talk:Ca|talk to me!]] 01:06, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Thank you! [[User:LouieLumber|LouieLumber]] ([[User talk:LouieLumber|talk]]) 01:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:: [[User:LouieLumber|LouieLumber]], there is another angle on this, which is that some topics which are notable, just don't have that much information out about them, so are unlikely to expand much. These could either be left as [[WP:PERMASTUB|permastubs]], or [[WP:NOPAGE]] may apply, which is to say, it might not make sense to have a small stand-alone page for it, but might make more sense to group it with other, small articles about related niche topics, and make a collective article about the group topic that covers all of the related, smaller subtopics on one page. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 01:55, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Articles can be short, yet convey salient facts and are referenced. Wikipedia has a rating of "Stub" for articles that are accepted but short, with the hope that other editors will add more content. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 03:39, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Edit History ==

Why when I look at the edit history of some pages, some revisions are crossed out? [[User:Subariba|Subariba]] ([[User talk:Subariba|talk]]) 01:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

:See [[WP:REVDEL]]. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 01:27, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Mobile table of contents inaccuracy ==

The first item in the table of contents that appears on mobile for the article [[Photographic print toning]] is “Sepia tone,” which I assume was maybe a previous title before a move. I’m having trouble finding how to correct this. It only seems apparent on mobile — on desktop the article title does not appear in the table of contents, it just starts with the first section header. Thank you! [[User:Wow Mollu|Wow Mollu]] ([[User talk:Wow Mollu|talk]]) 03:21, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_print_toning
: {{re|Wow Mollu}} That mobile view is showing the same table of contents as the desktop version, using a browser. Are you using a browser or one of the Wikipedia apps to view the article? [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 03:52, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::You’re right! Now that I reload it, it shows the article title. I came to this article from the disambiguation page for [[Sepia]]. On that page, under Color, the link for [[Sepia tone]] redirects to a section within [[Photographic print toning]]. When it does, the first item in the mobile app table of contents displays as “Sepia tone” instead of the article title. This seems a bit confusing, no? Since the Sepia tone section is way down the page, nowhere near the top. And tapping on that item brings you to the top of the article, which is not about sepia. [[User:Wow Mollu|Wow Mollu]] ([[User talk:Wow Mollu|talk]]) 05:27, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Wow Mollu|Wow Mollu]], you're being correctly redirected. There isn't a separate article for sepia tone, it's just part of the article on photographic print toning, so the link takes you right to the part that has the relevant information, rather than landing you at the top so you wonder why on earth you got there. I can't explain why tapping on the item brings you to the top of the article, though. That doesn't happen to me, so I wonder if it's something strange about your mobile browser. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 12:06, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Page Numbers ==

How do I add page numbers when citing books? [[User:LeónGonsalvesofGoa|LeónGonsalvesofGoa]] ([[User talk:LeónGonsalvesofGoa|talk]]) 04:01, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi there! In the {{tlx|Cite book}} template, you can specify one page with the {{para|p}} parameter, or a range of pages with the {{para|pp}} parameter. If you need help using these parameters in the [[WP:Visual editor|Visual editor]] or otherwise would like clarification, let me know! [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 04:03, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::Can I use the template with an auto-generated citation? [[User:LeónGonsalvesofGoa|LeónGonsalvesofGoa]] ([[User talk:LeónGonsalvesofGoa|talk]]) 04:08, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Yes! When you put in an ISBN or otherwise automatically generate a citation for a book, what it does is create a {{tlx|Cite book}} template under the hood. If you are using VisualEditor, do you see where you can specify page numbers? If not, check out [[Help:VisualEditor#Editing templates]]. If you are not using VisualEditor, you should be able to add the parameter with all the others! Don't hesitate to ask me for more help if you still need it. :) [[User:Remsense|'''Remsense''']][[User talk:Remsense|留]] 04:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::{{U|LeónGonsalvesofGoa}}, if a book is cited at all, it's typically cited more than once. Rather than having two or more fully written out REF tags, differing only in page numbers, consider using the combination of (A) named references -- {{Blue|<nowiki><ref name="arbitrary_name">{{Cite book | [lots of bibliographical detail but no page number(s)]}}</ref></nowiki>}} just once, {{Blue|<nowiki><ref name="arbitrary_name" /></nowiki>}} every other time -- and (B) [[Template:Rp]]. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 07:29, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Alt account ==

I am the alt account of [[User:TrademarkedTarantula]], and I'm aware that sockpuppeting is a problem. How do I verify that I'm the same person? Thanks, [[User:TrademarkedTWOrantula|TrademarkedTWOrantula]] ([[User talk:TrademarkedTWOrantula|talk]]) 06:41, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:TrademarkedTWOrantula|TrademarkedTWOrantula]]: Hello! You should use the template {{tlx|User alternative account banner}} on your alt account and disclose that you operate that alt account on your main account's user page (the latter by using your main account). You may also find [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry#Legitimate uses]] pretty useful as it will tell you about legitimate uses for alternative accounts, as well as explaining inappropriate uses of alt accounts. Happy editing! – [[User:64andtim|'''''64andtim''''']] ([[User talk:64andtim|talk]]) 06:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== How to create a new style2 template for infobox? ==

I want to create a new color scheme for the Style2 part of an infobox, like the "M2 M6" on [[Levent (Istanbul Metro)|this page]]. I'm a bit dumbfounded. Thanks in advance! [[User:Eticangaaa|Eticangaaa]] ([[User talk:Eticangaaa|talk]]) 11:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:Hi @[[User:Eticangaaa|Eticangaaa]]. I am frustrated by the fact that whoever made this system apparently neglected to document this, but the style2 options for Istanbul Metro seem to be defined at [[Module:Adjacent stations/Istanbul Metro]]. -- [[User:Maddy from Celeste|Maddy from Celeste]] ([[User talk:Maddy from Celeste|WAVEDASH]]) 12:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you very much! Apparently the style i was wishing to create has already been made :P [[User:Eticangaaa|Eticangaaa]] ([[User talk:Eticangaaa|talk]]) 12:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Enough sources? ==

Subject is Maurice Novoa, are there enough sources here;

https://sifu.maurice.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/The-Latin-Australian-Times.pdf

https://sifu.maurice.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/El-Ecco.pdf

https://sifu.maurice.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Sunraysia-Daily.pdf

https://sifu.maurice.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Leader.pdf

https://sifu.maurice.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Advertiser.pdf

https://el-espanol.news/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/EE-23-04-04.P13-copia.pdf

https://el-espanol.news/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/EE-23-09-12.P03.pdf

https://el-espanol.news/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/EE-23-09-26.P05-copia.pdf

https://el-espanol.news/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/EE-23-10-17.P31-copia.pdf

https://el-espanol.news/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/EE-23-07-18.P16-copia.pdf

https://brimbanknorthwest.starweekly.com.au/news/business-fights-to-recover-from-pandemic/

https://brimbanknorthwest.starweekly.com.au/news/providing-an-outlet/

https://brimbanknorthwest.starweekly.com.au/news/local-legend-honoured/

https://era.id/lifestyle/116299/masih-ingat-dengan-bule-australia-di-sinetron-jadul-cewekku-jutek-begini-kabarnya-sekarang

https://brimbanknorthwest.starweekly.com.au/news/from-albanvale-to-jakarta/

https://www.beritabulukumba.com/sport/53057/wing-chun-di-mata-sifu-maurice-tak-sekadar-seni-bela-diri-ada-cinta-dan-berbagi

https://kutip.co/10602/read/sifu-maurice-bangga-felix-leong-masuk-hall-of-fame-seni-beladiri-australasian-2023

https://kutip.co/10479/read/kisah-sifu-maurice-dari-seni-bela-diri-ubah-kehidupan-murid-hingga-masuk-serial-tv

https://www.elpais.com.uy/enlaces-patrocinados/mauricio-novoa-un-maestro-de-wing-chun-y-filantropo-destacado [[Special:Contributions/159.196.225.157|159.196.225.157]] ([[User talk:159.196.225.157|talk]]) 14:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

:What matters if not the number of sources, but the content within the sources.
:The things to consider when making ana article is:
:Are the sources reliable? Do they come from a third party? Do the sources altogether have enough information to write an article about a given subject?
:Not much volunteers are willing to read all the linked articles. Instead try giving the best three sources. [[User:Ca|Ca]] [[User talk:Ca|talk to me!]] 14:16, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

== Long-running AfD discussion ==

Hello!
A few weeks ago, my new article [[Isaac Saul]] was nominated for deletion, and since then I have been trying to defend its notability. However, after the first few days, the discussion quickly dropped off. Now, it has already been relisted twice with no further discussion, and it will be relisted a third time tomorrow. I worry that this article has been buried under a pile of newer AfDs, and that it will remain in limbo indefinitely. Is there anything I can do to make this process move faster?
Thanks,
[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 14:20, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UNiiQu3

2023-11-25T23:39:41Z

Mover of molehills: /* UNiiQu3 */ Added my comment

===[[:UNiiQu3]]===
{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}}

<noinclude>{{AFD help}}</noinclude>
:{{la|1=UNiiQu3}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UNiiQu3|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 November 23#{{anchorencode:UNiiQu3}}|View log]]</noinclude> | [[Special:Diff/1186455141/cur|edits since nomination]])
:({{Find sources AFD|title=UNiiQu3}})
Article about a person that does not meet [[WP:NMUSIC]] and [[WP:GNG]]. Not much about the subject to confer notability. [[User:Jamiebuba|Jamiebuba]] ([[User talk:Jamiebuba|talk]]) 10:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
*Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/People|People]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Bands and musicians|Bands and musicians]], and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/United States of America|United States of America]]. [[User:Jamiebuba|Jamiebuba]] ([[User talk:Jamiebuba|talk]]) 10:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

:"'''Not much about the subject to confer notability.'''"
: 
:She has released music with Big Freedia, Whipped Cream, Aluna, Anna Lunoe, and more, who are also notable in the electronic music scene. She has been and continues to be covered by Billboard, Forbes, Vice, Complex, The Guardian, and more, all sources which I've provided.
: 
:Furthermore, she just opened the Renaissance Tour for Beyonce, and won a BMI award for her contributions to Chloe Bailey's debut single "Have Mercy". She's known for having launched Jersey club music to wider audiences, hence why she is dubbed the "Queen of Jersey club" in the title of most articles written about her. I have been a huge supporter in these electronic music scenes for years, and trust me, she's known; a quick Google search will give you even more thorough insight. I will continue to add all relevant sources.
: 
:If you are looking at musician stubs mainly to vote for article removal based on your personal viewpoint, then I'd love for you to provide clearer justification for deletion. [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 13:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
* '''Delete''': Likely TOOSOON, only a limited about of coverage [https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/madame-gandhi-future-is-female-remix-music-video-premiere-8007059/], [https://www.ebony.com/uniiqu3-and-dance-pop-legend-crystal-waters-partner-for-100-pure-love-remix/#google_vignette] and [https://www.thefader.com/2023/11/21/watch-overmonos-full-manchester-boiler-room-set], all of which are trivial. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 13:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC) 
*'''Keep: ''' In addition to the information I've provided above, she meets the criteria for notability. Particularly for number 1.
*: 
*:Musicians or ensembles (this category includes bands, singers, rappers, orchestras, DJs, musical theatre groups, instrumentalists, etc.) may be '''notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria'''.
*: 
*:1. "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries." [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 14:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
*:Here is a list of non-trivial sources [https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisakocay/2023/07/28/meet-uniiqu3-the-jersey-club-queen/], [https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/sep/10/meet-uniiqu3-the-global-ambassador-of-musics-most-influential-genre], [https://www.brooklynvegan.com/shygirl-tinashe-announce-fall-tour-with-uniiqu3/], and [https://crackmagazine.net/article/profiles/uniiqu3-jersey-club/]. [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 14:06, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
*::All except for the last ref are trivial. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 14:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
*:::I'll exclude ref 6 because that's a tour mention (I'd included it because of the "non-trivial tour coverage" rule; however, the other sources very clearly point out the artist's background and why she is a notable fixture in the Jersey club music scene. [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 15:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
*::::Agreed, but they are trivial/minimal length articles. We need extensive coverage of the person. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 15:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
*:::::Understood. I am finding and adding more sources - please keep checking the article. I've also included her BMI award. [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 15:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
*::::::She won a special mention as part of a group of other people, I'm not sure that helps notability. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 13:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::I work professionally in the music production business. She is not merely being “mentioned” as you put it. She is credited and awarded as a songwtiter on the composition team. [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 18:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::Yes, as a special mention. That's not notable here I'm afraid. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 00:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::Again, being a part of a composition team is not known as a "special mention". You are downplaying her songwriting credibility. [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 00:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::It's listed as a special mention in the website itself, she didn't win. Please go read the source. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 15:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::I do not see the phrase "'''special mention'''" written anywhere on the website next to or in relation to her name.[https://www.bmi.com/award-shows/rnb-2023/]
*::::::::::: 
*:::::::::::If you could kindly provide the specific url which states this, rather than assuming, then I will concede to your point. You also have yet to address the other users who are saying the same things as I am. Rather, you'd prefer to argue over something that we have provided proof for, repeatedly. [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 17:23, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
*: [https://www.bmi.com/award-shows/rnb-2023/] [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 20:32, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
*::That's the same link I provided and it's not written there.
*::I can do you one better, however, where it explicitly says '''Award''' and Uniiqu3 is holding an '''official BMI award''' that has been ''awarded'' to her:
*::[https://www.instagram.com/p/Cw5YoTHrqg2/?img_index=9] [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 22:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
*Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Radio|Radio]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/New Jersey|New Jersey]]. '''[[User:Wcquidditch|WC''Quidditch'']]''' [[User talk:Wcquidditch|☎]] [[Special:Contribs/Wcquidditch|✎]] 13:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as has significant coverage in multiple reliable sources such as The Guardian [https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/sep/10/meet-uniiqu3-the-global-ambassador-of-musics-most-influential-genre here], AllMusic [https://www.allmusic.com/artist/uniiqu3-mn0003392290#biography here], [[Crack (magazine)]] [https://crackmagazine.net/article/profiles/uniiqu3-jersey-club/ here], DJ Mag [https://djmag.com/features/recognise-uniiqu3 here], Pitchfork review [https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/uniiqu3-heartbeats/ here] and others so that [[WP:GNG]] is passed in my view, [[User:Atlantic306|Atlantic306]] ([[User talk:Atlantic306|talk]]) 00:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
*:Precisely. Not only has she been the front page feature on those websites, she has also been mentioned by each of these sources multiple times. I don't see any founded reason to delete her page. [[User:Anarkafrica|Anarkafrica]] ([[User talk:Anarkafrica|talk]]) 18:15, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
* ''' Keep ''' I agree with other commentators on keep. There are enough recognized sources to view this artist as credible. [[User:Jujucabana|Juju]] ([[User talk:Jujucabana|talk]]) 17:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''; as this article is well over the three-source guideline – with very high-quality, independent sources, too! [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 23:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Murder of Kwong Sau Lan

2023-11-25T14:08:10Z

Mover of molehills: Removed extraneous word

{{short description|1969 murder of a 17-year-old woman in Singapore.}}
{{Infobox person
| name = Kwong Sau Lan
| image = Kwong Sau Lan.png
| image_size =
| caption = Kwong Sau Lan, pictured before her death
| birth_name = Kwong Sau Lan
| birth_date = 25 December 1951
| birth_place = [[Singapore]]
| death_date = 21 June 1969 (aged 17)
| death_place = [[Bukit Merah]], Singapore
| death_cause = Murdered by stabbing
| resting_place =
| resting_place_coordinates =
| nationality = [[Singaporeans|Singaporean]]
| other_names = Kong Sau Lan
| known_for = Murder victim
| education =
| employer =
| occupation =
| title =
| height =
| spouse =
| children =
| signature =
| website =
| footnotes =
}}
On 21 June 1969, inside a flat at [[Bukit Merah]], 17-year-old '''Kwong Sau Lan''' (江秀兰 Jiāng Xìulán) was stabbed to death by 19-year-old '''Chow Kim Hoong''' (周剑雄 Zhōu Jiànxióng), the brother of her fiancé. Similarly, Kwong's mother was also stabbed but survived her injuries. Chow was arrested three months later for the stabbing, and he was charged with killing Kwong and injuring her mother. It was revealed that due to a love triangle between the Chow brothers, Kwong and another woman, Chow had killed Kwong out of resentment.

After his arrest in September 1969, Chow was [[Capital punishment in Singapore|sentenced to death]] by the [[High Court of Singapore|High Court]] in July 1970 for murder, but Chow successfully applied for a re-trial after the [[Court of Appeal of Singapore|Court of Appeal]] allowed his appeal and overturned both his murder conviction and death sentence. However, in November 1971, Chow's death sentence was reinstated after the re-trial judges found him guilty of murder a second time. Later, Chow's appeals were dismissed, and he was hanged on 3 August 1973.

==Background==
Born in Singapore on 25 December 1951, Kwong Sau Lan was the younger of two daughters in her family, and had an elder sister Kwong Chee Lan (江珠兰 Jiāng Zhūlán). Her father died in 1959, hence she lived together with her mother Lee Gan Yoke (李银玉 Lǐ Yínyù; also spelt Lee Ghan Yoke or Lee Ghon Yoke) and sister.

Chow Kim Hoong, the younger of two sons, was born in [[Ipoh]], [[Perak]], [[British Malaya|Malaya]] (present-day [[Malaysia]]) in 1950, but he was [[Statelessness|stateless]] as of 1969 when he committed the murder of Kwong, although he still remained living in Singapore with his family. Chow worked various jobs, such as a hawker assistant, plumber and odd-job labourer, but he was jobless as of the time he committed the murder. During the [[1969 Malaysian general election|Malaysian general elections period]] in 1969, Chow travelled to [[Kuala Lumpur]] to apply for [[Malaysian nationality law|Malaysian citizenship]] but his application was rejected because Chow failed his [[Malay language]] proficiency test.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711028-1.2.15.15|title=紅山血案被告在口供書中指出彼全無預謀殺傷人乃在失理智下出事祗因當時錯拿刀子意外刺中死者|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=28 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

Chow first got to know Kwong through his older brother Chow Kim Weng (周剑荣 Zhōu Jiànróng; alias Ai Wah 爱华 Aì Huá), who first got to know Kwong in 1967, starting as each other's pen-pals, before they grew closer and became a couple, which led to Chow first knowing Kwong in February 1969 and later became friends with her.

On the night of [[Christmas]] of 1968, coincidentally the same day when Kwong celebrated her 17th birthday, she and Kim Weng first met Lily Pong Ah Moy (方亚妹 Fāng Yàmeì), a bar hostess who became sworn siblings with Kwong and Kim Weng. As Pong and Kim Weng grew closer, they slowly formed intimate feelings for one another, which caused Kim Weng to become estranged from Kwong and they later broke up, which led to Kwong ending up with Chow. However, a few months after knowing Pong, Kim Weng found out that Pong was a married woman and had allegedly caused him to distance from Kwong due to lies and misunderstandings, which therefore made him stay away from Pong and reconcile with Kwong, and they became engaged and set to marry soon.<ref>{{Cite web|date=29 October 1971|title=Woman in tears tells court of the day her sister was killed|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711029-1.2.70|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

This love triangle would develop further and caused a rift in the relationship between Chow and both his brother and future sister-in-law, as this engagement led to Chow and Pong becoming a couple and both being united in their common resentment towards Kim Weng and Kwong. Chow often got into quarrels and physical confrontations with Kim Weng and Kwong, as a result of Pong spreading slanders and lies to Chow that Kwong had been mistreating her and even insulted him and his family.<ref>{{Cite web|date=14 July 1970|title=Court told of a rectangle love affair|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19700714-1.2.59|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

One time in March 1969, Chow and a friend spent a few nights straight throwing rotten eggs and rocks at the Kwong family's house, out of revenge against Kwong for another allegation of her mistreatment of Pong. Chow and his friend was consequently arrested after a police report was lodged by the Kwongs, and reportedly, Chow stated he would not let Kwong and her kin off easily.<ref>{{Cite web|date=30 October 1971|title=Murder trial told of threats after throwing of rotten eggs|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711030-1.2.35|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19711030-1.2.46.4|title=「四角戀爱」刺殺案展下週一續審|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=30 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

==Murder and charges==
===Stabbing===
On 21 June 1969, Kwong Sau Lan, her sister Chee Lan, and their mother Lee Gan Yoke went to Chow Kim Hoong's flat at [[Bukit Merah]] (or Redhill), about three months after the egg-throwing incident. Inside the flat, Chow, who earlier argued with his father prior to the trio's arrival, confronted the trio and asked them why they had to mistreat Lily Pong, still believing in Pong's stories about Kwong, and Kwong denied that something like this happened.<ref>{{Cite web|date=17 December 1969|title=Love drove married woman's friend to kill girl of 17, says DPP|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19691217-1.2.87|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

As the confrontation and argument grew intense, Chow grabbed a knife from the shelf and used it to stab Kwong, with the prior intention of avenging himself for his earlier capture and hatred due to Pong's lies. Despite the fruitless attempts by Chow's mother and Kwong's mother to stop him, Chow managed to wound Kwong several times with the knife and even stabbed Kwong's mother twice. Kwong's sister managed to flee from the flat during the stabbing.<ref>{{Cite web|date=18 December 1969|title=Witness in case of 'love rectangle' tells of revenge|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19691218-1.2.45|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

After he committed the stabbing, Chow left his flat and soon, he escaped from Singapore to the neighbouring country of Malaysia. Simultaneously, in the aftermath of the stabbing, both Kwong and her mother were rushed to Outram Hospital. However, 17-year-old Kwong Sau Lan died while receiving treatment, and only Kwong's 45-year-old mother Lee Gan Yoke survived her wounds and later recovered. According to Professor [[Chao Tzee Cheng]], the forensic pathologist who examined Kwong's corpse, one of the knife wounds on Kwong's chest penetrated the lung, which was fatal and therefore led to the death of Kwong.<ref>{{Cite web|date=29 October 1971|title=Woman in tears tells court of the day her sister was killed|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711029-1.2.70|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

===Arrest===
The police were later contacted, and they investigated the case as murder, and put up a warrant of arrest for Chow Kim Hoong's capture after establishing his identity.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19690623-1.2.31.1|title=紅山區組屋發生刺殺案兇手尚未落網|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=23 June 1969|language=zh}}</ref> Three months later, on 8 September 1969, Chow was arrested by the [[Royal Malaysia Police]] at [[Johor Bahru]], [[Malaysia]]. He was extradited back to Singapore four days later, and charged with one count of murder and one count of voluntarily causing grievous hurt on 12 September 1969.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19690912-1.2.45.9|title=紅山組屋三月前命案嫌兇就擒被控謀殺少女重傷婦人|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=12 September 1969|language=zh}}</ref>

Back then, under Section 302 of the [[Penal Code (Singapore)|Penal Code]], the [[Capital punishment in Singapore|death penalty]] was [[Mandatory sentencing|mandated]] as the sole punishment for all murder offences in Singapore, hence for the most serious charge of murder, Chow faced the possibility of execution if found guilty. Since Chow was 19 years old at the time he committed the offence of murder, he was eligible for the death penalty since offenders aged 18 and above would receive a death sentence for capital crimes like murder.<ref>{{Singapore legislation | cap=224 | ed=1985}}</ref>

==Chow's murder trial==
===Testimony and defence===
{{Infobox criminal
| name = Chow Kim Hoong
| image = Chow Kim Hoong.png
| image_size =
| alt =
| caption = 1969 police mugshot of Chow Kim Hoong
| birth_name = Chow Kim Hoong
| birth_date = 1950
| birth_place = [[Ipoh]], [[Perak]], [[Malaysia]]
| death_date = 3 August 1973
| death_place = [[Changi Prison]], [[Singapore]]
| cause = [[Execution by hanging]]
| resting_place =
| nationality = [[Statelessness|Stateless]]
| alias =
| allegiance =
| motive =
| charge = 1st: Murder of Kwong Sau Lan 2nd: Voluntarily causing hurt to Lee Gan Yoke
| conviction = [[Murder]] (one count)
| conviction_penalty = [[Capital punishment in Singapore|Death penalty]]
| conviction_status = [[Capital punishment in Singapore|Executed]]
| occupation = Hawker assistant (former) Plumber (former) Odd-job labourer (former)
| spouse =
| parents =
| children =
}}
After some pre-trial conferences (which ended on 20 December 1969),<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19691220-1.2.24.2|title=红山路殺案初審告結束控方表面証供成立官諭案移高院發落|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=20 December 1969|language=zh}}</ref> Chow Kim Hoong stood trial on 14 July 1970 for two charges, one for murder with respect to Kwong Sau Lan's killing and another for voluntarily causing grievous hurt with respect to the stabbing of Kwong's mother. C. Paramjothy represented Chow in his trial while the trial prosecutor was Isaac Paul Ratnam, and the trial was presided by both judges T Kulasekaram and Tan Ah Tah.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19700713-1.2.42|title=紅山一死一傷情殺案靑年嫌兇今開始受審|website=Shin Min Daily|date=13 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref>

Kwong's sister Chee Lan, who was then pregnant with a child, came to court as a witness to testify about what she witnessed and the knife attack on her sister and mother. Inspector Ling Duing Kwong, who investigated the stabbing case, testified that during the final moments of her life, Kwong had said in her dying breath that it was Chow who stabbed her. In the face of prosecutorial evidence, Chow denied that he intentionally killed her, and claimed that he was gravely provoked into using a knife to stab Kwong during a heated argument, in which Kwong had allegedly insulted him. He also stated he never realized he had grabbed onto the knife until the point he stabbed Kwong, and claimed it was Lee who ran into the knife and accidentally injured herself.<ref>{{Cite web|date= 16 July 1970|title=Assailant named before girl died, court told|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19700716-1.2.80|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date= 17 July 1970|title=Accused: I did not realise it was a knife I had in my hand...|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19700717-1.2.49|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19700716-1.2.3|title=紅山四角情怨血案査案警長供証江秀蘭斷氣前説出行兇者就是周劍雄|website=Shin Min Daily|date=16 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref>

===Verdict===
On 18 July 1970, the two trial judges - Justice T Kulasekaram and Justice Tan Ah Tah - delivered their verdict. Justice Tan, who pronounced the verdict, stated that there was no doubt that Chow had intentionally knifed Kwong several times with the view of causing bodily injury to Kwong, such that the injuries were sufficient in the ordinary course of nature to cause death, and therefore rejected his defence of having no intention to kill and abnormality of the mind. They additionally found that Chow had intended to cause hurt to Kwong's mother Lee Gan Yoke, in contrast to his claim that Lee had accidentally run into the knife he was holding in his hand.<ref>{{Cite web|date= 18 July 1970|title=
Labourer who killed brother's girl gets death|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19700718-1.2.23|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19700718-1.2.14.11|title=四角戀愛演成悲劇告一段落！存意殺害未來嫂子周劍雄遭判處死刑被告聞判時一直低頭神情木然奉勸天下男女搞關係切謹慎|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=18 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref>

Therefore, 20-year-old Chow Kim Hoong was found guilty of the murder of Kwong Sau Lan and voluntarily causing hurt to Lee Gan Yoke. For the most serious charge of murder, Chow was [[Capital punishment in Singapore|sentenced to death]] by [[hanging]], while he also received a one-year prison sentence for the other charge of causing hurt, which could also warrant the maximum of three years' imprisonment if convicted.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19700718-1.2.28.1|title=紅山刺殺案高庭昨判决謀殺少女江秀蘭周劍雄判處死刑|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=18 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19700718-1.2.4|title=紅山區四角情怨兇殺案謀殺罪名成立周劍雄判死刑|website=Shin Min Daily|date=18 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref>

==Chow's re-trial for murder==
===Appeal for re-trial===
Chow's [[appeal]] was heard a year after he was convicted and sentenced. Chow's lawyer John Tan Chor Yong argued that Chow should not be tried in the same trial for both the capital charge of murder and non-capital charge of voluntarily causing hurt, as the two-judge panel of the trial court was constituted to hear only the capital cases where it warranted the imposition of capital punishment, while non-capital cases, where the death penalty was not imposed, were only entitled for trial hearing by a single judge.<ref>{{Cite web|date=6 July 1971|title=TWO IN ONE' POSER IN APPEAL COURT|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19710706-1.2.98|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19710706-1.2.20.12|title=四角戀愛釀成命案死囚周劍雄昨上訴控辯雙方今將展開舌戰|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=6 July 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19710706-1.2.44|title=紅山四角情怨兇殺案死囚周劍雄昨上訴要求高院推翻原判|website=Shin Min Daily|date=6 July 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

On 7 July 1971, the [[Court of Appeal of Singapore|Court of Appeal]] allowed the appeal, and after revoking Chow's death sentence and conviction, the three appellate judges - [[Choor Singh]], F A Chua and [[Chief Justice of Singapore|Chief Justice]] [[Wee Chong Jin]] - ordered that a re-trial, with respect to the most serious charge of murder, should be conducted, and in any cases concerning both capital and non-capital charges, separate trials should be carried out in view of the different number of judges allowed to hear these cases, with the priority placed upon capital case trials.<ref>{{Cite web|date=7 July 1971|title=Retrial for man found on two counts|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19710707-1.2.66|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19710707-1.2.15.9|title=前年紅山區四角戀愛釀成命案審訊違反刑事程序三司昨日諭令重審上訴人周劍雄還押候訊|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=7 July 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

===Re-trial proceedings===
On 25 October 1971, the re-trial of Chow Kim Hoong for the sole charge of murder began at the [[High Court of Singapore|High Court]], with John Tan continuing to represent Chow. The trial prosecutor was replaced by P O Ram, and the case was heard before a new two-judge panel, consisting of veteran judges A V Winslow and D C D'Cotta. The second charge for knifing and injuring Lee Gan Yoke was temporarily stood down during the re-trial proceedings for Kwong's murder.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711026-1.2.41.1|title=紅山四角戀愛命案昨重審主控官形容被吿如懸崖上一株弱樹被風吹得東斜西歪|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=26 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19711026-1.2.31.6|title=三司刑事上訴庭認违刑事程序法紅山四角戀愛命案高等法庭昨日重審|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=26 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

While the witnesses of the trial (including Kwong's sister and mother) and testimonies regarding the stabbing largely remained the same,<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711030-1.2.43.33|title=紅山血案死者胞姊江珠蘭供述被告曾以石塊臭蛋連續拋擲彼等屋頂証人供証完畢案展下週一續訊|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=30 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711109-1.2.16.26|title=紅山血案控方昨傳召死者之母出庭供証証人欄内痛哭流涕|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=9 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711110-1.2.17.13|title=紅山血案重審進第十二天死者母親李銀玉昨經受盤問完畢|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=12 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref> Chow put up a defence of [[diminished responsibility]]. He additionally stated that he was gravely provoked into killing Kwong and never meant to cause her death, and he intended to grab a cup to hit Kwong but laid his hands on the wrong object - a knife - before the stabbing.<ref>{{Cite web|date=28 October 1971|title=Murder trial is told of 'confession' by accused|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711028-1.2.38|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19711028-1.2.65|title=周劍雄自白書曁口供書在高院宣讀矢口否認蓄意行兇稱因氣憤錯手殺人|website=Shin Min Daily|date=28 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref> With regards to the alleged abnormality of the mind, Chow explained that due to his unhappy childhood, the parental negligence and his inability to find a stable job due to his statelessness, he had depression and frequent bouts of emotional instability and even inherited chronic headaches from his father. According to defence psychiatrist Yap Meow Foo, who testified on Chow's behalf, these emotional instabilities, in addition to major depressive disorder, led to Chow being prone to sharp, explosive reactions to any insult directed at him or his family member.<ref>{{Cite web|date=16 November 1971|title=Murder accused was 'emotionally unstable'|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711116-1.2.63|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=11 November 1971|title=Accused tells of 'wild feeling' on day of killing
|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711111-1.2.54|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711116-1.2.21.1|title=精神病醫生出庭供証稱被吿在案發時可能處於神智不淸狀態紅山血案今日繼續聆審|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=16 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

===Re-trial verdict===
On 20 November 1971, after the end of the re-trial, which lasted twenty days, the two re-trial judges - Justice A V Winslow and Justice D C D'Cotta - delivered the re-trial verdict.

Justice Winslow, who pronounced the verdict, stated that based on the evidence, it was crystal-clear that Chow had indeed intentionally stabbed 17-year-old Kwong Sau Lan with the view to cause her death or inflict injuries sufficient to result in death. The judges also rejected the defence's psychiatric opinion, and instead accept the prosecution's psychiatric evidence that Chow was mentally sound and did not suffer from diminished responsibility at the time of the offence of murder, and was fully aware of the magnitude of his actions. In conclusion, they found Chow guilty of the original charge of murder a second time, and re-imposed the [[Capital punishment in Singapore|death penalty]] on 21-year-old Chow Kim Hoong, who was emotionless but speechless at the re-trial's verdict of death.<ref>{{Cite web|date=21 November 1971|title=Labourer sentenced to death again at retrial|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711121-1.2.48|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711120-1.2.13.10|title=紅山血案審結兇手遭處極刑被告聞判並無特殊表情|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=20 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19711120-1.2.29.1|title=四角戀爱刺杀案重审毕被吿周劍雄又被判犯謀殺罪遭處死刑|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=20 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

==Execution==
After the end of his re-trial, Chow Kim Hoong [[appeal]]ed his death sentence and conviction a second time. This time round however, the [[Court of Appeal of Singapore|Court of Appeal]] dismissed Chow's appeal on 23 January 1973, after they found that Chow's defences of sudden and grave provocation and diminished responsibility could not be applied since circumstances had directed the court to the conclusion that Chow had intentionally stabbed Kwong with the view to cause her death, which amounted to an offence of murder.<ref>{{Cite web|date=23 January 1973|title=Death plea rejected|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19730123-1.2.85|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19730123-1.2.48.6|title=四角戀愛引致刺殺命案周剑雄昨上訴失敗杀人偿命难逃一死|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=23 January 1973|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19730123-1.2.44|title=紅山四角情怨血案死囚周劍雄上訴被駿囘擁有槍械海員上訴則獲判減刑|website=Shin Min Daily|date=23 January 1973|language=zh}}</ref>

As of February 1973, the month after Chow lost his appeal, he was one of the eleven inmates on [[death row]] awaiting their executions, among them included [[Mimi Wong]], [[Sim Woh Kum]], the seven [[Gold Bars triple murders|Gold Bar killers]] and a gardener [[Osman bin Ali]], all were convicted of murder like Chow.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19730226-1.2.44.10|title=
將上絞台十一死囚|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=26 February 1973|language=zh}}</ref>

Subsequently, Chow's application for leave to appeal to the [[Judicial Committee of the Privy Council|Privy Council]] in London was dismissed on 20 June 1973,<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19730621-1.2.41.9|title=謀殺江秀蘭死囚周劍雄向倫敦枢密院上訴已吿失敗終須偿命|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=21 June 1973|language=zh}}</ref> and his clemency petition was also rejected by then [[President of Singapore]] [[Benjamin Sheares]] in July 1973.<ref>{{Cite web|date=3 August 1973|title=Love quarrel man hanged|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/newnation19730803-1.2.4|website=New Nation}}</ref>

On 3 August 1973, Chow Kim Hoong was hanged at [[Changi Prison]]. Chow was 22 years old at the time when he was put to death. Chow was the fourth person to be executed within the week itself, after the executions of bar hostess [[Mimi Wong]] and her sweeper husband [[Sim Woh Kum]] for killing a Japanese woman, as well as the hanging of gardener [[Osman bin Ali]] for killing both a cook and an amah; all three were hanged on the same morning of 27 July 1973 for their respective offences.<ref>{{Cite web|date= 4 August 1973|title=Labourer hanged for love triangle murder|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19730804-1.2.37|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19730804-1.2.2|title=
紅山四角情怨血案殺害未婚嫂嫂兇手周建雄上絞台|website=Shin Min Daily|date=4 August 1973|language=zh}}</ref>

As of October 1973, two months after Chow was hanged, thirteen prisoners, eight for murder and five for kidnapping, remained on [[death row]] pending their executions.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19731019-1.2.36|title=漳宜監獄有十三名死囚內中八名犯謀殺罪其餘皆涉及綁票案|website=Shin Min Daily|date=19 October 1973|language=zh}}</ref>

==See also==
*[[Capital punishment in Singapore]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{authority control}}

[[Category:Murder in Singapore]]
[[Category:1969 murders in Singapore]]
[[Category:Capital murder cases]]
[[Category:Deaths by stabbing in Singapore]]
[[Category:Female murder victims]]
[[Category:Singaporean people of Chinese descent]]
[[Category:Singaporean people convicted of murder]]
[[Category:20th-century executions by Singapore]]
[[Category:Capital punishment in Singapore]]
[[Category:Violence against women in Singapore]]
[[Category:Incidents of violence against women]]

Murder of Kwong Sau Lan

2023-11-25T14:07:51Z

Mover of molehills: Changed wording

{{short description|1969 murder of a 17-year-old woman in Singapore.}}
{{Infobox person
| name = Kwong Sau Lan
| image = Kwong Sau Lan.png
| image_size =
| caption = Kwong Sau Lan, pictured before her death
| birth_name = Kwong Sau Lan
| birth_date = 25 December 1951
| birth_place = [[Singapore]]
| death_date = 21 June 1969 (aged 17)
| death_place = [[Bukit Merah]], Singapore
| death_cause = Murdered by stabbing
| resting_place =
| resting_place_coordinates =
| nationality = [[Singaporeans|Singaporean]]
| other_names = Kong Sau Lan
| known_for = Murder victim
| education =
| employer =
| occupation =
| title =
| height =
| spouse =
| children =
| signature =
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}}
On 21 June 1969, inside a flat at [[Bukit Merah]], 17-year-old '''Kwong Sau Lan''' (江秀兰 Jiāng Xìulán) was grievously stabbed to death by 19-year-old '''Chow Kim Hoong''' (周剑雄 Zhōu Jiànxióng), the brother of her fiancé. Similarly, Kwong's mother was also stabbed but survived her injuries. Chow was arrested three months later for the stabbing, and he was charged with killing Kwong and injuring her mother. It was revealed that due to a love triangle between the Chow brothers, Kwong and another woman, Chow had killed Kwong out of resentment.

After his arrest in September 1969, Chow was [[Capital punishment in Singapore|sentenced to death]] by the [[High Court of Singapore|High Court]] in July 1970 for murder, but Chow successfully applied for a re-trial after the [[Court of Appeal of Singapore|Court of Appeal]] allowed his appeal and overturned both his murder conviction and death sentence. However, in November 1971, Chow's death sentence was reinstated after the re-trial judges found him guilty of murder a second time. Later, Chow's appeals were dismissed, and he was hanged on 3 August 1973.

==Background==
Born in Singapore on 25 December 1951, Kwong Sau Lan was the younger of two daughters in her family, and had an elder sister Kwong Chee Lan (江珠兰 Jiāng Zhūlán). Her father died in 1959, hence she lived together with her mother Lee Gan Yoke (李银玉 Lǐ Yínyù; also spelt Lee Ghan Yoke or Lee Ghon Yoke) and sister.

Chow Kim Hoong, the younger of two sons, was born in [[Ipoh]], [[Perak]], [[British Malaya|Malaya]] (present-day [[Malaysia]]) in 1950, but he was [[Statelessness|stateless]] as of 1969 when he committed the murder of Kwong, although he still remained living in Singapore with his family. Chow worked various jobs, such as a hawker assistant, plumber and odd-job labourer, but he was jobless as of the time he committed the murder. During the [[1969 Malaysian general election|Malaysian general elections period]] in 1969, Chow travelled to [[Kuala Lumpur]] to apply for [[Malaysian nationality law|Malaysian citizenship]] but his application was rejected because Chow failed his [[Malay language]] proficiency test.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711028-1.2.15.15|title=紅山血案被告在口供書中指出彼全無預謀殺傷人乃在失理智下出事祗因當時錯拿刀子意外刺中死者|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=28 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

Chow first got to know Kwong through his older brother Chow Kim Weng (周剑荣 Zhōu Jiànróng; alias Ai Wah 爱华 Aì Huá), who first got to know Kwong in 1967, starting as each other's pen-pals, before they grew closer and became a couple, which led to Chow first knowing Kwong in February 1969 and later became friends with her.

On the night of [[Christmas]] of 1968, coincidentally the same day when Kwong celebrated her 17th birthday, she and Kim Weng first met Lily Pong Ah Moy (方亚妹 Fāng Yàmeì), a bar hostess who became sworn siblings with Kwong and Kim Weng. As Pong and Kim Weng grew closer, they slowly formed intimate feelings for one another, which caused Kim Weng to become estranged from Kwong and they later broke up, which led to Kwong ending up with Chow. However, a few months after knowing Pong, Kim Weng found out that Pong was a married woman and had allegedly caused him to distance from Kwong due to lies and misunderstandings, which therefore made him stay away from Pong and reconcile with Kwong, and they became engaged and set to marry soon.<ref>{{Cite web|date=29 October 1971|title=Woman in tears tells court of the day her sister was killed|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711029-1.2.70|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

This love triangle would develop further and caused a rift in the relationship between Chow and both his brother and future sister-in-law, as this engagement led to Chow and Pong becoming a couple and both being united in their common resentment towards Kim Weng and Kwong. Chow often got into quarrels and physical confrontations with Kim Weng and Kwong, as a result of Pong spreading slanders and lies to Chow that Kwong had been mistreating her and even insulted him and his family.<ref>{{Cite web|date=14 July 1970|title=Court told of a rectangle love affair|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19700714-1.2.59|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

One time in March 1969, Chow and a friend spent a few nights straight throwing rotten eggs and rocks at the Kwong family's house, out of revenge against Kwong for another allegation of her mistreatment of Pong. Chow and his friend was consequently arrested after a police report was lodged by the Kwongs, and reportedly, Chow stated he would not let Kwong and her kin off easily.<ref>{{Cite web|date=30 October 1971|title=Murder trial told of threats after throwing of rotten eggs|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711030-1.2.35|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19711030-1.2.46.4|title=「四角戀爱」刺殺案展下週一續審|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=30 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

==Murder and charges==
===Stabbing===
On 21 June 1969, Kwong Sau Lan, her sister Chee Lan, and their mother Lee Gan Yoke went to Chow Kim Hoong's flat at [[Bukit Merah]] (or Redhill), about three months after the egg-throwing incident. Inside the flat, Chow, who earlier argued with his father prior to the trio's arrival, confronted the trio and asked them why they had to mistreat Lily Pong, still believing in Pong's stories about Kwong, and Kwong denied that something like this happened.<ref>{{Cite web|date=17 December 1969|title=Love drove married woman's friend to kill girl of 17, says DPP|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19691217-1.2.87|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

As the confrontation and argument grew intense, Chow grabbed a knife from the shelf and used it to stab Kwong, with the prior intention of avenging himself for his earlier capture and hatred due to Pong's lies. Despite the fruitless attempts by Chow's mother and Kwong's mother to stop him, Chow managed to wound Kwong several times with the knife and even stabbed Kwong's mother twice. Kwong's sister managed to flee from the flat during the stabbing.<ref>{{Cite web|date=18 December 1969|title=Witness in case of 'love rectangle' tells of revenge|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19691218-1.2.45|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

After he committed the stabbing, Chow left his flat and soon, he escaped from Singapore to the neighbouring country of Malaysia. Simultaneously, in the aftermath of the stabbing, both Kwong and her mother were rushed to Outram Hospital. However, 17-year-old Kwong Sau Lan died while receiving treatment, and only Kwong's 45-year-old mother Lee Gan Yoke survived her wounds and later recovered. According to Professor [[Chao Tzee Cheng]], the forensic pathologist who examined Kwong's corpse, one of the knife wounds on Kwong's chest penetrated the lung, which was fatal and therefore led to the death of Kwong.<ref>{{Cite web|date=29 October 1971|title=Woman in tears tells court of the day her sister was killed|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711029-1.2.70|website=The Straits Times}}</ref>

===Arrest===
The police were later contacted, and they investigated the case as murder, and put up a warrant of arrest for Chow Kim Hoong's capture after establishing his identity.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19690623-1.2.31.1|title=紅山區組屋發生刺殺案兇手尚未落網|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=23 June 1969|language=zh}}</ref> Three months later, on 8 September 1969, Chow was arrested by the [[Royal Malaysia Police]] at [[Johor Bahru]], [[Malaysia]]. He was extradited back to Singapore four days later, and charged with one count of murder and one count of voluntarily causing grievous hurt on 12 September 1969.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19690912-1.2.45.9|title=紅山組屋三月前命案嫌兇就擒被控謀殺少女重傷婦人|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=12 September 1969|language=zh}}</ref>

Back then, under Section 302 of the [[Penal Code (Singapore)|Penal Code]], the [[Capital punishment in Singapore|death penalty]] was [[Mandatory sentencing|mandated]] as the sole punishment for all murder offences in Singapore, hence for the most serious charge of murder, Chow faced the possibility of execution if found guilty. Since Chow was 19 years old at the time he committed the offence of murder, he was eligible for the death penalty since offenders aged 18 and above would receive a death sentence for capital crimes like murder.<ref>{{Singapore legislation | cap=224 | ed=1985}}</ref>

==Chow's murder trial==
===Testimony and defence===
{{Infobox criminal
| name = Chow Kim Hoong
| image = Chow Kim Hoong.png
| image_size =
| alt =
| caption = 1969 police mugshot of Chow Kim Hoong
| birth_name = Chow Kim Hoong
| birth_date = 1950
| birth_place = [[Ipoh]], [[Perak]], [[Malaysia]]
| death_date = 3 August 1973
| death_place = [[Changi Prison]], [[Singapore]]
| cause = [[Execution by hanging]]
| resting_place =
| nationality = [[Statelessness|Stateless]]
| alias =
| allegiance =
| motive =
| charge = 1st: Murder of Kwong Sau Lan 2nd: Voluntarily causing hurt to Lee Gan Yoke
| conviction = [[Murder]] (one count)
| conviction_penalty = [[Capital punishment in Singapore|Death penalty]]
| conviction_status = [[Capital punishment in Singapore|Executed]]
| occupation = Hawker assistant (former) Plumber (former) Odd-job labourer (former)
| spouse =
| parents =
| children =
}}
After some pre-trial conferences (which ended on 20 December 1969),<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19691220-1.2.24.2|title=红山路殺案初審告結束控方表面証供成立官諭案移高院發落|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=20 December 1969|language=zh}}</ref> Chow Kim Hoong stood trial on 14 July 1970 for two charges, one for murder with respect to Kwong Sau Lan's killing and another for voluntarily causing grievous hurt with respect to the stabbing of Kwong's mother. C. Paramjothy represented Chow in his trial while the trial prosecutor was Isaac Paul Ratnam, and the trial was presided by both judges T Kulasekaram and Tan Ah Tah.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19700713-1.2.42|title=紅山一死一傷情殺案靑年嫌兇今開始受審|website=Shin Min Daily|date=13 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref>

Kwong's sister Chee Lan, who was then pregnant with a child, came to court as a witness to testify about what she witnessed and the knife attack on her sister and mother. Inspector Ling Duing Kwong, who investigated the stabbing case, testified that during the final moments of her life, Kwong had said in her dying breath that it was Chow who stabbed her. In the face of prosecutorial evidence, Chow denied that he intentionally killed her, and claimed that he was gravely provoked into using a knife to stab Kwong during a heated argument, in which Kwong had allegedly insulted him. He also stated he never realized he had grabbed onto the knife until the point he stabbed Kwong, and claimed it was Lee who ran into the knife and accidentally injured herself.<ref>{{Cite web|date= 16 July 1970|title=Assailant named before girl died, court told|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19700716-1.2.80|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date= 17 July 1970|title=Accused: I did not realise it was a knife I had in my hand...|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19700717-1.2.49|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19700716-1.2.3|title=紅山四角情怨血案査案警長供証江秀蘭斷氣前説出行兇者就是周劍雄|website=Shin Min Daily|date=16 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref>

===Verdict===
On 18 July 1970, the two trial judges - Justice T Kulasekaram and Justice Tan Ah Tah - delivered their verdict. Justice Tan, who pronounced the verdict, stated that there was no doubt that Chow had intentionally knifed Kwong several times with the view of causing bodily injury to Kwong, such that the injuries were sufficient in the ordinary course of nature to cause death, and therefore rejected his defence of having no intention to kill and abnormality of the mind. They additionally found that Chow had intended to cause hurt to Kwong's mother Lee Gan Yoke, in contrast to his claim that Lee had accidentally run into the knife he was holding in his hand.<ref>{{Cite web|date= 18 July 1970|title=
Labourer who killed brother's girl gets death|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19700718-1.2.23|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19700718-1.2.14.11|title=四角戀愛演成悲劇告一段落！存意殺害未來嫂子周劍雄遭判處死刑被告聞判時一直低頭神情木然奉勸天下男女搞關係切謹慎|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=18 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref>

Therefore, 20-year-old Chow Kim Hoong was found guilty of the murder of Kwong Sau Lan and voluntarily causing hurt to Lee Gan Yoke. For the most serious charge of murder, Chow was [[Capital punishment in Singapore|sentenced to death]] by [[hanging]], while he also received a one-year prison sentence for the other charge of causing hurt, which could also warrant the maximum of three years' imprisonment if convicted.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19700718-1.2.28.1|title=紅山刺殺案高庭昨判决謀殺少女江秀蘭周劍雄判處死刑|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=18 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19700718-1.2.4|title=紅山區四角情怨兇殺案謀殺罪名成立周劍雄判死刑|website=Shin Min Daily|date=18 July 1970|language=zh}}</ref>

==Chow's re-trial for murder==
===Appeal for re-trial===
Chow's [[appeal]] was heard a year after he was convicted and sentenced. Chow's lawyer John Tan Chor Yong argued that Chow should not be tried in the same trial for both the capital charge of murder and non-capital charge of voluntarily causing hurt, as the two-judge panel of the trial court was constituted to hear only the capital cases where it warranted the imposition of capital punishment, while non-capital cases, where the death penalty was not imposed, were only entitled for trial hearing by a single judge.<ref>{{Cite web|date=6 July 1971|title=TWO IN ONE' POSER IN APPEAL COURT|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19710706-1.2.98|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19710706-1.2.20.12|title=四角戀愛釀成命案死囚周劍雄昨上訴控辯雙方今將展開舌戰|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=6 July 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19710706-1.2.44|title=紅山四角情怨兇殺案死囚周劍雄昨上訴要求高院推翻原判|website=Shin Min Daily|date=6 July 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

On 7 July 1971, the [[Court of Appeal of Singapore|Court of Appeal]] allowed the appeal, and after revoking Chow's death sentence and conviction, the three appellate judges - [[Choor Singh]], F A Chua and [[Chief Justice of Singapore|Chief Justice]] [[Wee Chong Jin]] - ordered that a re-trial, with respect to the most serious charge of murder, should be conducted, and in any cases concerning both capital and non-capital charges, separate trials should be carried out in view of the different number of judges allowed to hear these cases, with the priority placed upon capital case trials.<ref>{{Cite web|date=7 July 1971|title=Retrial for man found on two counts|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19710707-1.2.66|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19710707-1.2.15.9|title=前年紅山區四角戀愛釀成命案審訊違反刑事程序三司昨日諭令重審上訴人周劍雄還押候訊|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=7 July 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

===Re-trial proceedings===
On 25 October 1971, the re-trial of Chow Kim Hoong for the sole charge of murder began at the [[High Court of Singapore|High Court]], with John Tan continuing to represent Chow. The trial prosecutor was replaced by P O Ram, and the case was heard before a new two-judge panel, consisting of veteran judges A V Winslow and D C D'Cotta. The second charge for knifing and injuring Lee Gan Yoke was temporarily stood down during the re-trial proceedings for Kwong's murder.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711026-1.2.41.1|title=紅山四角戀愛命案昨重審主控官形容被吿如懸崖上一株弱樹被風吹得東斜西歪|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=26 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19711026-1.2.31.6|title=三司刑事上訴庭認违刑事程序法紅山四角戀愛命案高等法庭昨日重審|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=26 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

While the witnesses of the trial (including Kwong's sister and mother) and testimonies regarding the stabbing largely remained the same,<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711030-1.2.43.33|title=紅山血案死者胞姊江珠蘭供述被告曾以石塊臭蛋連續拋擲彼等屋頂証人供証完畢案展下週一續訊|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=30 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711109-1.2.16.26|title=紅山血案控方昨傳召死者之母出庭供証証人欄内痛哭流涕|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=9 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711110-1.2.17.13|title=紅山血案重審進第十二天死者母親李銀玉昨經受盤問完畢|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=12 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref> Chow put up a defence of [[diminished responsibility]]. He additionally stated that he was gravely provoked into killing Kwong and never meant to cause her death, and he intended to grab a cup to hit Kwong but laid his hands on the wrong object - a knife - before the stabbing.<ref>{{Cite web|date=28 October 1971|title=Murder trial is told of 'confession' by accused|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711028-1.2.38|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19711028-1.2.65|title=周劍雄自白書曁口供書在高院宣讀矢口否認蓄意行兇稱因氣憤錯手殺人|website=Shin Min Daily|date=28 October 1971|language=zh}}</ref> With regards to the alleged abnormality of the mind, Chow explained that due to his unhappy childhood, the parental negligence and his inability to find a stable job due to his statelessness, he had depression and frequent bouts of emotional instability and even inherited chronic headaches from his father. According to defence psychiatrist Yap Meow Foo, who testified on Chow's behalf, these emotional instabilities, in addition to major depressive disorder, led to Chow being prone to sharp, explosive reactions to any insult directed at him or his family member.<ref>{{Cite web|date=16 November 1971|title=Murder accused was 'emotionally unstable'|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711116-1.2.63|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|date=11 November 1971|title=Accused tells of 'wild feeling' on day of killing
|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711111-1.2.54|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711116-1.2.21.1|title=精神病醫生出庭供証稱被吿在案發時可能處於神智不淸狀態紅山血案今日繼續聆審|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=16 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

===Re-trial verdict===
On 20 November 1971, after the end of the re-trial, which lasted twenty days, the two re-trial judges - Justice A V Winslow and Justice D C D'Cotta - delivered the re-trial verdict.

Justice Winslow, who pronounced the verdict, stated that based on the evidence, it was crystal-clear that Chow had indeed intentionally stabbed 17-year-old Kwong Sau Lan with the view to cause her death or inflict injuries sufficient to result in death. The judges also rejected the defence's psychiatric opinion, and instead accept the prosecution's psychiatric evidence that Chow was mentally sound and did not suffer from diminished responsibility at the time of the offence of murder, and was fully aware of the magnitude of his actions. In conclusion, they found Chow guilty of the original charge of murder a second time, and re-imposed the [[Capital punishment in Singapore|death penalty]] on 21-year-old Chow Kim Hoong, who was emotionless but speechless at the re-trial's verdict of death.<ref>{{Cite web|date=21 November 1971|title=Labourer sentenced to death again at retrial|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19711121-1.2.48|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/nysp19711120-1.2.13.10|title=紅山血案審結兇手遭處極刑被告聞判並無特殊表情|website=Nanyang Siang Pau|date=20 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19711120-1.2.29.1|title=四角戀爱刺杀案重审毕被吿周劍雄又被判犯謀殺罪遭處死刑|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=20 November 1971|language=zh}}</ref>

==Execution==
After the end of his re-trial, Chow Kim Hoong [[appeal]]ed his death sentence and conviction a second time. This time round however, the [[Court of Appeal of Singapore|Court of Appeal]] dismissed Chow's appeal on 23 January 1973, after they found that Chow's defences of sudden and grave provocation and diminished responsibility could not be applied since circumstances had directed the court to the conclusion that Chow had intentionally stabbed Kwong with the view to cause her death, which amounted to an offence of murder.<ref>{{Cite web|date=23 January 1973|title=Death plea rejected|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19730123-1.2.85|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19730123-1.2.48.6|title=四角戀愛引致刺殺命案周剑雄昨上訴失敗杀人偿命难逃一死|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=23 January 1973|language=zh}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19730123-1.2.44|title=紅山四角情怨血案死囚周劍雄上訴被駿囘擁有槍械海員上訴則獲判減刑|website=Shin Min Daily|date=23 January 1973|language=zh}}</ref>

As of February 1973, the month after Chow lost his appeal, he was one of the eleven inmates on [[death row]] awaiting their executions, among them included [[Mimi Wong]], [[Sim Woh Kum]], the seven [[Gold Bars triple murders|Gold Bar killers]] and a gardener [[Osman bin Ali]], all were convicted of murder like Chow.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19730226-1.2.44.10|title=
將上絞台十一死囚|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=26 February 1973|language=zh}}</ref>

Subsequently, Chow's application for leave to appeal to the [[Judicial Committee of the Privy Council|Privy Council]] in London was dismissed on 20 June 1973,<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/scjp19730621-1.2.41.9|title=謀殺江秀蘭死囚周劍雄向倫敦枢密院上訴已吿失敗終須偿命|website=Sin Chew Jit Poh|date=21 June 1973|language=zh}}</ref> and his clemency petition was also rejected by then [[President of Singapore]] [[Benjamin Sheares]] in July 1973.<ref>{{Cite web|date=3 August 1973|title=Love quarrel man hanged|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/newnation19730803-1.2.4|website=New Nation}}</ref>

On 3 August 1973, Chow Kim Hoong was hanged at [[Changi Prison]]. Chow was 22 years old at the time when he was put to death. Chow was the fourth person to be executed within the week itself, after the executions of bar hostess [[Mimi Wong]] and her sweeper husband [[Sim Woh Kum]] for killing a Japanese woman, as well as the hanging of gardener [[Osman bin Ali]] for killing both a cook and an amah; all three were hanged on the same morning of 27 July 1973 for their respective offences.<ref>{{Cite web|date= 4 August 1973|title=Labourer hanged for love triangle murder|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19730804-1.2.37|website=The Straits Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19730804-1.2.2|title=
紅山四角情怨血案殺害未婚嫂嫂兇手周建雄上絞台|website=Shin Min Daily|date=4 August 1973|language=zh}}</ref>

As of October 1973, two months after Chow was hanged, thirteen prisoners, eight for murder and five for kidnapping, remained on [[death row]] pending their executions.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/shinmin19731019-1.2.36|title=漳宜監獄有十三名死囚內中八名犯謀殺罪其餘皆涉及綁票案|website=Shin Min Daily|date=19 October 1973|language=zh}}</ref>

==See also==
*[[Capital punishment in Singapore]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{authority control}}

[[Category:Murder in Singapore]]
[[Category:1969 murders in Singapore]]
[[Category:Capital murder cases]]
[[Category:Deaths by stabbing in Singapore]]
[[Category:Female murder victims]]
[[Category:Singaporean people of Chinese descent]]
[[Category:Singaporean people convicted of murder]]
[[Category:20th-century executions by Singapore]]
[[Category:Capital punishment in Singapore]]
[[Category:Violence against women in Singapore]]
[[Category:Incidents of violence against women]]

User:Mover of molehills

2023-11-24T23:12:30Z

Mover of molehills: Removed WikiOgre reference

[[File:Symbol question.svg|20px|link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Aging_of_the_United_States]]
{{Reviewer topicon}}
{{Extendedconfirmed topicon}}
{{WikiOgre}}
{{trout me}}
{{Infobox Wikipedia user|image=Talpa europaea MHNT.jpg|image_caption=Me, ambling between tasks on Wikipedia}}
My "name" is '''Mover of molehills''', and I live in the U.S. state of [[Vermont]]. I've been editing Wikipedia since 2019. These days, my main hobby is GA reviewing, but I've done a bit of photography as well. I've also created several articles on a variety of topics, but my contributions are fairly sporadic. Feel free to leave any comments or discussions on my talk page!

==Articles I've created==
*{{icon|B}} [[Aging of the United States]]
*{{icon|START}} [[Centennial Woods]]

==Articles I've GA reviewed==
*{{icon|GA}} [[Peking Man]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Mariner 1]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Kererū]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Magnetoreception]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Jupiter]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Mandrill]]

==Barnstars==
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Vanstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Best, most thorough GA review I've ever gotten!. [[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 19:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
|}

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Reviewer Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[File:Barnstar-RTFM.png|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Reviewer Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for your detailed GA review of the [[Jupiter]] article. I think your feedback has definitely enhanced this former featured article, which is not an easy task. Good work! [[User:Praemonitus|Praemonitus]] ([[User talk:Praemonitus|talk]]) 13:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
|}

==Userboxes and Babel==
{{Babel|en|es-3|latex-3|ar-2}}
{{User WPAST}}
{{User save the whales}}

User:Mover of molehills

2023-11-24T23:10:42Z

Mover of molehills: /* Userboxes and Babel */ Deleted userboxes

[[File:Symbol question.svg|20px|link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Aging_of_the_United_States]]
{{Reviewer topicon}}
{{Extendedconfirmed topicon}}
{{WikiOgre}}
{{trout me}}
{{Infobox Wikipedia user|image=Talpa europaea MHNT.jpg|image_caption=Me, ambling between tasks on Wikipedia}}
My "name" is '''Mover of molehills''', and I live in the U.S. state of [[Vermont]]. I've been editing Wikipedia since 2019. These days, my main hobby is GA reviewing, but I've done a bit of photography as well. I've also created several articles on a variety of topics, but my contributions are fairly sporadic (hence my [[wikipedia:WikiOgre|WikiOgre]] status). Feel free to leave any comments or discussions on my talk page!

==Articles I've created==
*{{icon|B}} [[Aging of the United States]]
*{{icon|START}} [[Centennial Woods]]

==Articles I've GA reviewed==
*{{icon|GA}} [[Peking Man]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Mariner 1]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Kererū]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Magnetoreception]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Jupiter]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Mandrill]]

==Barnstars==
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Vanstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Best, most thorough GA review I've ever gotten!. [[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 19:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
|}

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Reviewer Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[File:Barnstar-RTFM.png|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Reviewer Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for your detailed GA review of the [[Jupiter]] article. I think your feedback has definitely enhanced this former featured article, which is not an easy task. Good work! [[User:Praemonitus|Praemonitus]] ([[User talk:Praemonitus|talk]]) 13:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
|}

==Userboxes and Babel==
{{Babel|en|es-3|latex-3|ar-2}}
{{User WPAST}}
{{User save the whales}}

User:Mover of molehills

2023-11-24T23:09:42Z

Mover of molehills: /* Articles I've GA reviewed */ Updated new FAs

[[File:Symbol question.svg|20px|link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Aging_of_the_United_States]]
{{Reviewer topicon}}
{{Extendedconfirmed topicon}}
{{WikiOgre}}
{{trout me}}
{{Infobox Wikipedia user|image=Talpa europaea MHNT.jpg|image_caption=Me, ambling between tasks on Wikipedia}}
My "name" is '''Mover of molehills''', and I live in the U.S. state of [[Vermont]]. I've been editing Wikipedia since 2019. These days, my main hobby is GA reviewing, but I've done a bit of photography as well. I've also created several articles on a variety of topics, but my contributions are fairly sporadic (hence my [[wikipedia:WikiOgre|WikiOgre]] status). Feel free to leave any comments or discussions on my talk page!

==Articles I've created==
*{{icon|B}} [[Aging of the United States]]
*{{icon|START}} [[Centennial Woods]]

==Articles I've GA reviewed==
*{{icon|GA}} [[Peking Man]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Mariner 1]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Kererū]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Magnetoreception]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Jupiter]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Mandrill]]

==Barnstars==
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Vanstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Best, most thorough GA review I've ever gotten!. [[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 19:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
|}

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Reviewer Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[File:Barnstar-RTFM.png|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Reviewer Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for your detailed GA review of the [[Jupiter]] article. I think your feedback has definitely enhanced this former featured article, which is not an easy task. Good work! [[User:Praemonitus|Praemonitus]] ([[User talk:Praemonitus|talk]]) 13:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
|}

==Userboxes and Babel==
{{Babel|en|es-3|latex-3|ar-2}}
{{User WPAST}}
{{User:Life in General/Userboxes/Linguistics}}
{{User save the whales}}
{{User mortal}}
{{User:Strdst grl/ubx/mandelbrot}}

User:Mover of molehills

2023-11-24T23:09:10Z

Mover of molehills: Omitted unnecessary words

[[File:Symbol question.svg|20px|link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Aging_of_the_United_States]]
{{Reviewer topicon}}
{{Extendedconfirmed topicon}}
{{WikiOgre}}
{{trout me}}
{{Infobox Wikipedia user|image=Talpa europaea MHNT.jpg|image_caption=Me, ambling between tasks on Wikipedia}}
My "name" is '''Mover of molehills''', and I live in the U.S. state of [[Vermont]]. I've been editing Wikipedia since 2019. These days, my main hobby is GA reviewing, but I've done a bit of photography as well. I've also created several articles on a variety of topics, but my contributions are fairly sporadic (hence my [[wikipedia:WikiOgre|WikiOgre]] status). Feel free to leave any comments or discussions on my talk page!

==Articles I've created==
*{{icon|B}} [[Aging of the United States]]
*{{icon|START}} [[Centennial Woods]]

==Articles I've GA reviewed==
*{{icon|GA}} [[Peking Man]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Mariner 1]]
*{{icon|FA}} [[Kererū]] (The FA review was not my doing, but was great to see!)
*{{icon|GA}} [[Magnetoreception]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Jupiter]]
*{{icon|GA}} [[Mandrill]]

==Barnstars==
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Vanstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Best, most thorough GA review I've ever gotten!. [[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 19:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
|}

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Reviewer Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[File:Barnstar-RTFM.png|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Reviewer Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for your detailed GA review of the [[Jupiter]] article. I think your feedback has definitely enhanced this former featured article, which is not an easy task. Good work! [[User:Praemonitus|Praemonitus]] ([[User talk:Praemonitus|talk]]) 13:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
|}

==Userboxes and Babel==
{{Babel|en|es-3|latex-3|ar-2}}
{{User WPAST}}
{{User:Life in General/Userboxes/Linguistics}}
{{User save the whales}}
{{User mortal}}
{{User:Strdst grl/ubx/mandelbrot}}

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)

2023-11-24T23:05:31Z

Mover of molehills: Added references

===[[:Isaac Saul]]===
{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}}
<div class="other-afds" style="width:33%; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; background-color: #f8f9fa; color: black; margin: 0.5em 0 0.5em 1em; padding: 0.2em; float: right; clear: right; font-size: 88%; min-width:20em; max-width: 100%">AfDs for this article:
{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul}}
</div>
<noinclude>{{AFD help}}</noinclude>
:{{la|1=Isaac Saul}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 November 24#{{anchorencode:Isaac Saul}}|View log]]</noinclude> | [[Special:Diff/1185574703/cur|edits since nomination]])
:({{Find sources AFD|title=Isaac Saul}})
This article was previously deleted via a deletion discussion ([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul]]). Most of the sources provided on the pages are from before the previous discussion, which would indicate that Saul is still non-notable. However, a few sources have been published since the last discussion in 2021. As such, I wouldn't necessarily consider this eligible for CSD, but it's worth discussing whether Saul is now notable. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade (she/her)]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 20:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/People|list of People-related deletion discussions]]. [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade (she/her)]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 20:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Sportspeople|Sportspeople]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Journalism|Journalism]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Politics|Politics]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/New Jersey|New Jersey]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/New York|New York]], and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Pennsylvania|Pennsylvania]]. '''[[User:Wcquidditch|WC''Quidditch'']]''' [[User talk:Wcquidditch|☎]] [[Special:Contribs/Wcquidditch|✎]] 20:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
*:Thanks for tagging me. I'd like to emphasize some of the new sources I've added to this article between the first and second nomination: <ref>{{Cite web |last=Lexington |first=Transylvania University 300 North Broadway |last2=Fax: 859‐233‐8797 |first2=KY 40508 USA Phone: 859-233‐8300 |title=Creative Intelligence |url=https://www.transy.edu/calendar/creative-intelligence |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Transylvania University {{!}} Calendar of Events |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=2020-11-13 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref>,<ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=Tangle founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |url-status=live |website=Axios}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=2022-05-30 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=2023-11-17}}</ref>. I thought that these references were some of the strongest in the piece. We now have direct mentions from CNN, Axios, the Financial Times, Forbes, Yahoo! News, Business Insider, Salon, and NBC Universal (none of which are articles Saul published himself). Doesn't this put the article well over the standard three-reference limit?
{{reflist talk}}
::[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 21:36, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::So my position is obviously '''keep''', although I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment on my own article. [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 14:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] you're perfectly entitled take a position in the discussion. Regards, [[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 23:59, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
@[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] the guideline for notability of people is [[WP:BIO]], which asks for "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject", while [[WP:THREE]] suggests presenting three references to show that WP:BIO is met. I don't think the five sources you linked provide the required coverage
*Transylvania University: listing for a talk by Saul at TU, not independent coverage
*Salon.com: quote from Saul, not independent
*NBCU Academy: looks like a mini interview, so not independent
*axios.com: listing for a talk by Saul, not independent coverage
*Financial Times: quote from Saul, not independent
[[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 02:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' — sources should notability, particularly the ones in the "Recognition" section.
[[User:DaniloDaysOfOurLives|DaniloDaysOfOurLives]] ([[User talk:DaniloDaysOfOurLives|talk]]) 13:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. The relevant notability criteria here is: [[WP:JOURNALIST]], which says: {{tq| The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors...The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews...}} At first glance Saul appears to satisfy this (given that this article makes the "influential" claim with regard to both the 2016 and 2020 elections). But it seems fair enough to have to take a closer look at whether the sources actually bear this out, as there is very little discussion about the specifics around the 2016 election, and rather thin discussion about his other work as a journalist throughout his career. [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 17:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
:'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}''' Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]] [[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']] 23:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)<noinclude>[[Category:Relisted AfD debates|Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]]</noinclude>
*'''Comment''': I've found a few new sources about Saul since I published this article that I wanted to share, in case it's useful to other reviewers. I haven't added these sources to the article yet, because I'm not sure what specific facts they would support that aren't already in there. However, I thought they could help to establish notability: <ref>{{Cite web |title=American Democracy Summit Speakers |url=https://americandemocracysummit.org/speakers/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=American Democracy Summit |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |title=Isaac Saul - Official Member of The Progress Network |url=https://theprogressnetwork.org/network/isaac-saul/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=The Progress Network |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |title=Frank talks to Isaac Saul, Founder of Tangle News about the Israel-Hamas war. – 77 WABC |url=https://wabcradio.com/episode/frank-talks-to-isaac-saul-founder-of-tangle-news-about-the-israel-hamas-war/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=wabcradio.com |language=en-US}}</ref>, <ref>{{Cite web |last=Hibberd |first=James |date=2022-11-15 |title=‘SNL’ Ratings Hit Season High With Dave Chappelle Amid Uproar |url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/snl-ratings-dave-chappelle-1235262090/ |access-date=2023-11-24 |website=The Hollywood Reporter |language=en-US}}</ref>.
{{reflist talk}}

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)

2023-11-18T14:11:09Z

Mover of molehills: /* Isaac Saul */ Reply

User talk:Mover of molehills

2023-11-18T14:10:21Z

Mover of molehills: /* Use of footnotes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination) */ Reply

== Trouted ==

{{trout}}
You have been trouted for: mis-applying {{tl|Redirect for discussion}} like you did [[Special:Diff/1005999192|here]]. You may now proceed with the [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 23#AB 1|current RFD discussion]]. –[[User:MJL|MJL]] [[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]][[WP:WikiProject Connecticut|☖]] 20:46, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

== Pending changes reviewer granted ==

[[File:Wikipedia Reviewer.svg|right|130px]]
Hello. Your account has been granted the "{{mono|pending changes reviewer}}" userright, allowing you to [[WP:RPC|review other users' edits]] on pages protected by pending changes. The list of articles awaiting review is located at [[Special:PendingChanges]], while the list of articles that have pending changes protection turned on is located at [[Special:StablePages]].

Being granted reviewer rights neither grants you status nor changes how you can edit articles. If you do not want this user right, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time.

''See also:''
*[[Wikipedia:Reviewing pending changes]], the guideline on reviewing
*[[Wikipedia:Pending changes]], the summary of the use of pending changes
*[[Wikipedia:Protection policy#Pending changes protection]], the policy determining which pages can be given pending changes protection by administrators. 
[[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 05:15, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

== Mariner 1 and 2 ==

Thank you for all of your help! What do you think, now that Mariner 1 is in good shape, of me taking the Background and Spacecraft sections and putting them whole cloth in Mariner 2? I can keep the expanded experiment descriptions if you think those are useful. I'll then put in a launch of Mariner 1 section, and salvage most of Mariner 2 from "Launch" onward. That should get it at least to "B" and then I can work on refining it for GA. --[[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 04:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

:{{ping|Neopeius}} That sounds fine to me, but you might need to check in at the Help Desk to see if it good practice to copy such a large chunk of content from one article to the other. However, since these spacecraft are basically clones of each other, I think it probably would be fine (although you'd obviously need to mention Mariner 1 in the "background" section of Mariner 2, and maybe add a note in the "Spacecraft" section explaining that its systems were the same as Mariner 1's). [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] ([[User talk:Mover of molehills#top|talk]]) 16:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

::Thank you! You went above and beyond. --[[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 19:15, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

== For your help with [[Mariner 1]] ==

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]|[[File:Vanstar1.jpg|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Vanstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Best, most thorough GA review I've ever gotten!. [[User:Neopeius|Neopeius]] ([[User talk:Neopeius|talk]]) 19:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
|}

:Thank you so much! I really appreciate this. [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] ([[User talk:Mover of molehills#top|talk]]) 00:55, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
== Nomination of [[:List of TEDx conferences]] for deletion ==
<div class="afd-notice">
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article '''[[:List of TEDx conferences]]''' is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]].

The article will be discussed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of TEDx conferences (2nd nomination)]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
</div> [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle|talk]]) 15:44, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

== By jove! ==

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Reviewer Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[File:Barnstar-RTFM.png|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Reviewer Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for your detailed GA review of the [[Jupiter]] article. I think your feedback has definitely enhanced this former featured article, which is not an easy task. Good work! [[User:Praemonitus|Praemonitus]] ([[User talk:Praemonitus|talk]]) 13:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
|}

:Thank you - this means a lot. I really appreciate you bearing with me throughout the review, because I think that the article is much better off for it. [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]] ([[User talk:Mover of molehills#top|talk]]) 14:46, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Since you reviewed that and renominated the Solar system FT, [[Wikipedia:Featured and good topic candidates/Jupiter/archive1|can you take a look here]]? [[User:Igordebraga|igordebraga]] [[User_talk:Igordebraga|≠]] 07:42, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

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== GA ==

Hello. Would you be able to review [[South Asian river dolphin]]? [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 13:41, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

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==Disambiguation link notification for December 6==

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[Electromagnetism]], you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages [[Quanta]], [[Quantization]] and [[Relativity]].

([[User:DPL bot|Opt-out instructions]].) --[[User:DPL bot|DPL bot]] ([[User talk:DPL bot|talk]]) 06:02, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

== Collaborate on [[electromagnetism]] ==

I want to help you improving the article so that it is a [[WP:GA|good article]] as you've made the lead much better than what it was before. What should I do alongside you to improve its quality further? [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 17:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

:Hi there - great to see that somebody is paying attention to my fiddling! At the moment, I'm in the middle of a very time-consuming science research project which is probably going to consume all of my free time until the end of March or so. After that, though, I would love to return to the EM article and set about getting it to FA status.
:If you're looking to work on it yourself, I was in the middle of trying to improve the History section, which is pretty crude right now - I actually started creating some replacement paragraphs [[User:Mover of molehills/Electromagnetism|here]], so feel free to add to that if you want. After that, I want to have a section called "Theory" which presents the theory of electromagnetism in a much more organized way - Coulomb's Law, Gauss's law, Biot-Savart Law, Lenz's/Ampere's Law, and then the Maxwell's equations, the same way you learn it in an introductory EM class. If you're familiar with this content, it would be great to start putting it in, but I feel comfortable with doing this part myself when I have time too! Finally, I want to add some more about quantum mechanics - I have a pretty rudimentary knowledge of QM, but probably enough to explain the basics of quantum electrodynamics and the quantization of the EM field via photons, which is all this article needs to cover anyway.
:There also may be some cutting in order to make space for all the new content - in particular, I have no idea why the article needs to include a section on the fundamental forces when that article is already wikilinked and not that relevant to the content at hand, and the giant table of electromagnetic units also feels very unnecessary. If you agree with me on those things, maybe you can take them out!
:Hope that's helpful! [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 14:49, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
::I'll try my best :) [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] 14:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

== Feedback request: Wikipedia style and naming request for comment ==

[[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#rfc_A36C442|'''Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)''' on a "Wikipedia style and naming" request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out! You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]]. <div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) | Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. | Sent at 11:41, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Featured topics/Jupiter]] ==

Hi! I happened to stumble across [[Wikipedia:Featured and good topic candidates/Solar system/archive1]], where you said about renominating [[Wikipedia:Featured topics/Jupiter]] that your {{tq|one hesitation is that [[Jupiter in fiction]] is not good or featured, and it seems like a relevant part of the topic}}. Well, [[Jupiter in fiction]] is now a [[WP:Good article]], in case you want to reconsider. [[User:TompaDompa|TompaDompa]] ([[User talk:TompaDompa|talk]]) 01:26, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

:Sounds good to me! Have you already renominated it, or do you want me to create the nomination? [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 13:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
::Probably better if you do it. My sole involvement has been bringing the [[Jupiter in fiction]] article to [[WP:Good article]] status. [[User:TompaDompa|TompaDompa]] ([[User talk:TompaDompa|talk]]) 21:11, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

==Concern regarding [[Draft:Manganese catalase]]==
[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, Mover of molehills. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that [[Draft:Manganese catalase]], a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months [[WP:G13|may be deleted]], so if you wish to retain the page, please [[Special:EditPage/Draft:Manganese catalase|edit it]] again or [[WP:USERFY|request]] that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can [[Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13|request it be undeleted]] so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. [[User:FireflyBot|FireflyBot]] ([[User talk:FireflyBot|talk]]) 19:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

== Feedback request: Wikipedia style and naming request for comment ==

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== Polar bear peer review ==

Hello, would you be able to [[Wikipedia:Peer review/Polar bear/archive2|peer review]] the article? Thanks. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 03:00, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
== Nomination of [[:Isaac Saul]] for deletion ==
<div class="afd-notice">
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article [[:Isaac Saul]] is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]].

The article will be discussed at '''[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]]''' until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.</div> [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade (she/her)]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 20:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Use of footnotes at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)]] ==

Hi - just a good faith comment/FYI - [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FIsaac_Saul_%282nd_nomination%29&diff=1185658595&oldid=1185608064 I added] the template {{tlx|reflist talk}} to your comment. If you use citations/references in a comment in a discussion it's best to use this template, that way the references will be viewable with your comment and not appear in other comments or elsewhere the discussion is transcluded. Regards, [[User:Goldsztajn|Goldsztajn]] ([[User talk:Goldsztajn|talk]]) 05:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

:Thank you, I didn't know! [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 14:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Isaac Saul (2nd nomination)

2023-11-17T21:36:09Z

Mover of molehills: /* Isaac Saul */ Reply

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{{Template:Did you know nominations/Huequi}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Troy Stolz}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 16===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Schliemann's Trench}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Hamilton Grange National Memorial}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/History sniffing}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Dầu Tiếng Reservoir}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Tadeusz Gebethner}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 17===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Christian Nodal}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Isaac Saul 2}}

==Special occasion holding area==

The holding area is [[Template talk:Did you know/Approved#Special occasion holding area|near the top of the Approved page]]. Please only place approved templates there; do not place them below.

:''Do '''not''' nominate articles in this section—nominate all articles in the [[Template talk:Did you know#Nominations|nominations]] section above, under the date on which the [[WP:DYKTN#article|article]] was created or moved to mainspace, or the [[WP:DYKTN#expansion|expansion]] began; indicate in the nomination any request for a specially timed appearance on the main page.''

:''Note: Articles intended to be held for special occasion dates should be nominated within seven days of creation, start of expansion, or promotion to Good Article status. The nomination should be made at least one week prior to the occasion date, to allow time for reviews and promotions through the prep and queue sets, but not more than six weeks in advance. The proposed occasion must be deemed sufficiently special by reviewers. The timeline limitations, including the six week maximum, may be waived by consensus, if a request is made at [[WT:DYK]], but requests are not always successful. Discussion clarifying the hold criteria can be found here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Revision_3]; discussion setting the six week limit can be found here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know/Archive_65#Rhacophorus_vampyrus].''

:''April Fools' Day hooks are exempted from the timeline limit; see '''[[Wikipedia:April Fool's Main Page/Did You Know]]'''.''

[[Category:Main Page discussions]]
[[Category:Wikipedia Did you know]]

Template talk:Did you know

2023-11-17T17:42:45Z

Mover of molehills: /* Articles created/expanded on November 17 */ Added new article

{{User:Theleekycauldron/Templates/DYK queue backlog}}
{{Bots|deny=SineBot}}
{{DYK nomination header}}

=Nominations=
==Older nominations==

===Articles created/expanded on August 6===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Herb Dell}}

===Articles created/expanded on August 20===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Shiv Shakti Aksh Rekha}}

===Articles created/expanded on August 27===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/2023 Chicago Marathon}}

===Articles created/expanded on August 28===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Mario Party DS}}

===Articles created/expanded on August 31===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Kathanar - The Wild Sorcerer}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 3===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/25 Water Street}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Louise Franklin}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Music of 428: Shibuya Scramble and Canaan}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Substitute Teacher (Key & Peele)}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 6===


===Articles created/expanded on September 13===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/SPICES (Scouting)}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 17===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Mel Bartholomew}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 18===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Shootings of Sydney Land and Nehemiah Kauffman}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 20===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Wad el-Mahi}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 22===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Trần Lập}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 23===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Jewish historiography}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 24===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/François Glorieux}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Neighbours 30th Anniversary}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Die Kuranten}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 25===
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Yaroslav Hunka}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 26===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/The Story Teller (painting)}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 28===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Hoang Thi Minh Hong}}

===Articles created/expanded on September 29===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Dave Barney}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 1===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Sealord Group}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 2===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Dan Fable}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 3===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Samuel Sparshott}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Brillante Jr. (wrestler, born 2001)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Switch Disco}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 4===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Kadu Makrani (film)}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 5===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Global Engagement Center}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 6===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Roman Ratushnyi}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Malayalam softcore pornography}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 8===

{{Did you know nominations/Ligue de Defense de la Race Nègre}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Dalí Atomicus}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Doreen Virtue}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Shukusei!! Loli Kami Requiem}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 9===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Walker Interactive Products}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Firefighter calendar}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Restrictions on geographic data in South Korea}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Frederick E. Olmsted}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 12===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/International Championship Wrestling (Mississippi)}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 14===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Perry Hartnett}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Georgia Twinn}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 15===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Turbo Dismount}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 16===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/John Ernest Adamson}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Harry Crosbie}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 17===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Vanessa Weenink}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 19===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Coriantumr (Last Jaredite King)}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 20===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Jeff Allen (defensive back, born 1948)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Long gu}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Fred Provo}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 21===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Maryam Eslamdoust}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/LEF – For the New Generation}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 22===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Lou Daukas}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/National War Labor Board (1942–1945)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/8th Session of the Central Committee of the League of Communists of Serbia}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 24===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Dimitrie Ralet}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Uganda Muslim Supreme Council}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Vocalises (Ivanovs)}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 25===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Phoenotopia: Awakening}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Songs of Muad'Dib}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 26===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Gamze Durmuş}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/The Joy of Music (album)}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 28===


===Articles created/expanded on October 29===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Desulfovibrio vulgaris}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 30===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Lincoln Fitzgerald}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Michael Collins (clarinetist)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Jod Gumbaz}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Walter A. Groves}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Zavodovski Island}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/A Field Guide to Otherkin}}

===Articles created/expanded on October 31===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Rajiv Lochan Temple}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Lemon & Te Aroha}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 1===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/31 October 2023 attack on Jabalia}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Can't Catch Me Now}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Springfield Science Museum}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Malmö school stabbing}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Bogor City Regional House of Representatives}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 2===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Junko Ikeuchi}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Carlos Scharff}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Koyomi Araragi}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Homeric laughter}}
{{section reflist}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 3===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Triste (film)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Ballagh}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Blockade of Biafra}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Hermann Alfred Tanner}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 4===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Edo literature}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/2022 New Zealand fuel tax subsidy}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 5===
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Canticle I: My beloved is mine and I am his}}
{{Did you know nominations/Ioveta}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/The Little Girl in Blue}}
{{Did you know nominations/Sugarbush Hill}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Cultural impact of TikTok}}
{{Did you know nominations/Detrans (short film)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Al Qarara Cultural Museum}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 6===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Hyprov}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 7===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/William Carter (composer)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Young Girls (painting)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Ryland Davies}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Calls for the destruction of Israel}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Hypericum bupleuroides}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 8===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/SSSniperWolf}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Nancy Nash (actress)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Fan Xiaoqin}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 9===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Wie liegt die Stadt so wüst}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Updown Girl}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Eustace Tilley}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Felis wenzensis}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Erin Swenson}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Curatores aedium sacrarum et operum locorumque publicorum}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Islamic Revival in British India: Deoband, 1860-1900}}

==Current nominations==
===Articles created/expanded on November 10===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Kihwan Sim}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Beegum, California}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Salty Parker}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Krasowo-Częstki massacre}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Nonô (musician)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Marco Pierre White Jr}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 11===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Brazilian cruiser Almirante Barroso (1882)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Musical Instrument Bank}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Glitch Productions}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 12===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Peanut, California}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Mathias Nordvig}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Luochahai City}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 13===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/William Bronston}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Cote, West Sussex}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Great Divine Temple}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Bofedales}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Ding Xuesong}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Convent of Saint Lazarus}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 14===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Cora Victoria Diehl}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Morphia of Melitene}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/How the Red Sun Rose}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Sasuke vs. Commander}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/William, Prince of Wales}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 15===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/1855 Kansas Territory elections}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Isabella Correa}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Five Nights at Freddy's (song)}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Huequi}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Troy Stolz}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 16===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Schliemann's Trench}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Hamilton Grange National Memorial}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/History sniffing}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Dầu Tiếng Reservoir}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Tadeusz Gebethner}}

===Articles created/expanded on November 17===

{{Template:Did you know nominations/Christian Nodal}}
{{Template:Did you know nominations/Isaac Saul}}

==Special occasion holding area==

The holding area is [[Template talk:Did you know/Approved#Special occasion holding area|near the top of the Approved page]]. Please only place approved templates there; do not place them below.

:''Do '''not''' nominate articles in this section—nominate all articles in the [[Template talk:Did you know#Nominations|nominations]] section above, under the date on which the [[WP:DYKTN#article|article]] was created or moved to mainspace, or the [[WP:DYKTN#expansion|expansion]] began; indicate in the nomination any request for a specially timed appearance on the main page.''

:''Note: Articles intended to be held for special occasion dates should be nominated within seven days of creation, start of expansion, or promotion to Good Article status. The nomination should be made at least one week prior to the occasion date, to allow time for reviews and promotions through the prep and queue sets, but not more than six weeks in advance. The proposed occasion must be deemed sufficiently special by reviewers. The timeline limitations, including the six week maximum, may be waived by consensus, if a request is made at [[WT:DYK]], but requests are not always successful. Discussion clarifying the hold criteria can be found here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Revision_3]; discussion setting the six week limit can be found here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know/Archive_65#Rhacophorus_vampyrus].''

:''April Fools' Day hooks are exempted from the timeline limit; see '''[[Wikipedia:April Fool's Main Page/Did You Know]]'''.''

[[Category:Main Page discussions]]
[[Category:Wikipedia Did you know]]

Template:Did you know nominations/Isaac Saul 2

2023-11-17T17:42:12Z

Mover of molehills:

{{DYKsubpage
|monthyear=November 2023
|passed=
|2=
{{DYK conditions}}
{{DYK header|Isaac Saul}}
{{DYK nompage links|nompage=Isaac Saul 2|Isaac Saul}}

* ... that American nonpartisan journalist '''[[Isaac Saul]]''' was named one of the 16 people who had the greatest influence in the 2016 election? Source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html
** ''Reviewed'': Not necessary.
** ''Comment'': The original DYK nomination for this article failed because of an ongoing AfD discussion prompted by lack of references. I have since substantially expanded the number of high-quality references, so I think it's ready!
Created by {{user0|Mover of molehills}}. Self-nominated at 17:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom [[User:GalliumBot#darn|will be logged]] at [[Template talk:Did you know nominations/Isaac Saul 2]]; consider [[Help:Watchlist|watching]] this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

* 

}}

Template:Did you know nominations/Isaac Saul 2

2023-11-17T17:41:56Z

Mover of molehills: Created new nomination

{{DYKsubpage
|monthyear=November 2023
|passed=
|2=
{{DYK conditions}}
{{DYK header|Isaac Saul}}
{{DYK nompage links|nompage=Isaac Saul 2|Isaac Saul}}

* ... that American nonpartisan journalist '''[[Isaac Saul]]''' was named one of the 16 people who had the greatest influence in the 2016 election? Source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html
** ''Reviewed'': [[]]
** ''Comment'': The original DYK nomination for this article failed because of an ongoing AfD discussion prompted by lack of references. I have since substantially expanded the number of high-quality references, so I think it's ready!
Created by {{user0|Mover of molehills}}. Self-nominated at 17:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom [[User:GalliumBot#darn|will be logged]] at [[Template talk:Did you know nominations/Isaac Saul 2]]; consider [[Help:Watchlist|watching]] this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

* 

}}

Wikipedia talk:Did you know

2023-11-17T16:54:27Z

Mover of molehills: /* Reopening a DYK discussion */

[[Category:Wikipedia Did you know discussion pages]]
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This is where the '''[[Wikipedia:Did you know|Did you know]]''' section on the main page, its policies, and its processes can be discussed.

== september 1983 laws ==

: {{hlist
| [[September 1983 Laws|article]]
| [[template:did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws|nomination]]
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know#Hooks|set]] (main page)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text=%{%{DYK talk|title=talk:September 1983 Laws|plain=f}} | <s>set</s> (already ran)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text=dykdate *=|title=talk:September 1983 Laws|plain=f}} | <s>set</s> (already ran)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/1|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/1#Hooks|set]] (q1)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/2|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/2#Hooks|set]] (q2)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/3|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/3#Hooks|set]] (q3)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/4|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/4#Hooks|set]] (q4)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/5|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/5#Hooks|set]] (q5)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/6|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/6#Hooks|set]] (q6)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/7|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/7#Hooks|set]] (q7)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 1|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 1#Hooks|set]] (p1)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 2|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 2#Hooks|set]] (p2)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 3|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 3#Hooks|set]] (p3)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 4|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 4#Hooks|set]] (p4)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 5|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 5#Hooks|set]] (p5)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 6|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 6#Hooks|set]] (p6)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 7|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 7#Hooks|set]] (p7)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text=The result was: '''promoted'''|title=template:did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws|plain=f}} | <s>set</s> (not found)
| <s>set</s> (not promoted)
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
}}
:: {{small|{{hlist
| [[user:FuzzyMagma|nominator]]
| [[user:Rjjiii|reviewer]]
| [[user:Vaticidalprophet|promoter]]
| [[user:theleekycauldron|queuer]]
}}}}

i am sorry to mention this, but unfortunately, it looks like {{oldid2|1180397132|the initial version}} of this article was largely copied from the "[[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]]" article (specifically, {{oldid2|1180137009|this version}}), and the nominated article is currently not long enough to satisfy the eligibility criteria mentioned at [[WP:DYKSPLIT|wp:dyksplit]]. a comparison via earwig of the aforementioned article versions can be found [https://archive.today/20231104003914/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&oldid=1180397132&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1180137009 here]. neither the edit summaries nor the talk pages appear to mention the split, so i can understand why this issue may have been missed before.{{pb}}to be clear, i don't know if there is a copyright, close paraphrasing, or attribution issue here. it's possible that all the copied text was originally written by the nominator or was already in the public domain to begin with; i simply haven't had the time to check. i am only raising this as a wp:dyksplit issue. i remember there was another dyk hook that was mistakenly accepted and ran on the main page last month, even though it did not satisfy wp:dyksplit, so i just wanted to raise this issue before the hook was scheduled to appear on the main page. apologies if i am missing something obvious. [[User:Dying|dying]] ([[User talk:Dying|talk]]) 01:59, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

:Well dang. "{{tq| it's possible that all the copied text was originally written by the nominator}}" the copied text seems to come from the nominator's 30 August 2023 rewrite of [[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]]. [[User:Rjjiii|Rjjiii]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii#top|talk]]) 03:16, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
:good catch, {{u|dying}}! have pulled :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 07:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Theleekycauldron|Theleekycauldron]] given how this conversation went (see dying response and mine below), are you going to put it back? [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 07:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]]: done :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 05:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Dying|Dying]] to add to the previous point "{{tq|it's possible that all the copied text was originally written by the nominator}}". The text you mentioned was moved not copied and expanded way beyond what beyond the version that you used in earwig. How about you do the earwig analysis with the current version of [[September 1983 Laws]] and if you reach the same conclusion, I am happy for the hook to go [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 07:52, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::Btw you can just click on both articles stats and see who is main contributor so you will to know if “{{tq|that all the copied text was originally written by the nominator}}”. You did the crazy bit of comparing two old versions of two different articles why not do the easy bit too [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
:::if it's established that [[September 1983 Laws]] is at least 80% new text, this nomination can go forward. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 08:07, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::If that is the rule even when I wrote both articles around similar time and decided the split when one ran too broad while nominating one and leaving the other; then I guess I will wait for the article to pass GA [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:14, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{yo|FuzzyMagma}} if you split the text less than seven days after publishing to mainspace, it's still new if you nominate within seven days of putting it in mainspace? [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 08:18, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::I moved the Nation Reconciliation article to the mainspace on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_Reconciliation_(Sudan)&diff=prev&oldid=1179986651 13 October] and the September 1983 Laws article was created on 16 October. So yes less than 7 days [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::: oh, i completely missed that the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article was moved to mainspace shortly before the article was split! thanks for pointing that out, FuzzyMagma. also, although the article was moved to mainspace just over a week before the nomination, i'm happy to let that slide.{{pb}}interestingly, the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article wasn't actually the article i had first compared the nominated article with; i only ended up stumbling upon that after a bit of digging. i think what had first caught my eye was the similarity between the nominated article with the "[[Islamism in Sudan]]" article. the latter article was first created in mainspace in 2020. according to [https://archive.today/20231104092118/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIslamism_in_Sudan this earwig comparison], there seems to be more than a 20% overlap between these two articles. if the overlap with "[[Sudanese Greeks]]" ([https://archive.today/20231104092145/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSudanese_Greeks here]) and "[[Legal system of Sudan]]" ([https://archive.today/20231104092304/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLegal_system_of_Sudan here]) are also taken into account, it seems as if expanding the nominated article to satisfy the fivefold expansion requirement at this point would be difficult to achieve.{{pb}}apologies for the confusion caused by using the comparison with the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article. at the time, it looked like presenting that comparison would have made the issue more obvious. [[User:Dying|dying]] ([[User talk:Dying|talk]]) 09:59, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::No worries. Just for clarification, I was the one who expanded the [[Islamism in Sudan]] article from a stub to the existing size (by [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Islamism%20in%20Sudan 90.2%]) starting from [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamism_in_Sudan&diff=prev&oldid=1173166984 31 August 2023] and did not nominate the article as it relayed on one source and I need to improve so it can fit the front page. The text the might have started all of this, as you said, was copied later on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamism_in_Sudan&diff=prev&oldid=1181062784 20 October] from the [[September 1983 Laws]] and not the other way around. [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 10:38, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::: i'm sorry, {{u|FuzzyMagma}}, it looks like you misinterpreted what i was trying to say. the date that the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article was moved to mainspace is irrelevant because the copied material previously appeared in the "Islamism in Sudan" article. if only the date that the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article was moved to mainspace mattered, then editors can effectively renew text copied from other articles by first copying the text to an intermediary article in draftspace first.{{pb}}i'm not sure why you provided {{diff2|1181062784|the diff}} dated 2023.10.20. the only substantial text copied there appears to be an accidental duplication of some caption text into the prose, which you later removed anyway in {{diff2|1183447014|this diff}}. i suppose you could say that the text was copied from the "September 1983 Laws" article to the "Islamism in Sudan" article, but that's simply because it was already in both articles before you duplicated it in the "Islamism in Sudan" article. in any case, the duplicated caption text wasn't what initially caught my eye anyway.{{pb}}the comparison i provided in my last comment between the "September 1983 Laws" and "Islamism in Sudan" articles was based on the latest versions at the time because you had requested that i compare the then-current versions in your earlier comments. to make more clear what text was copied, [https://archive.today/20231108033818/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1178053539 here] is a comparison between the current "September 1983 Laws" article and the "Islamism in Sudan" article at the time the "September 1983 Laws" article was created. this comparison clearly shows that more than 20% of the current text in the "September 1983 Laws" article had already appeared in mainspace before the article was created.{{pb}}i think it is possible that you had actually copied the text in question from a different article, or even from an offline draft, but had lost track of what text you were copying to which articles, and didn't realize when you created the new "September 1983 Laws" article that you had already copied much of the text to the old "Islamism in Sudan" article more than a month earlier. if so, that would explain why you may not have realized that this article was ineligible when you nominated it. [[User:Dying|dying]] ([[User talk:Dying|talk]]) 03:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I don’t agree with your statement. the comparison that you are showing is the current [[September 1983 Laws]] with a version of [[Islamism in Sudan]], I know that from the similarity in the lead which I copied as I said on 20 of October. So you cannot hyperbolically make the jump that because some of text match now equals that they are the same.
::::::::::i don’t think I misunderstood anything, you start your argument with comparisons from the [[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]] which I dismissed, shifted later to [[Islamism in Sudan]] stating that the article existed since 2020 which I again dismissed by I pointing out that actually I am the one who expanded the article starting 30 August 2023, and you now again shifted to compare recent versions of the articles.
::::::::::anyway, the two versions that you compared were within almost the 7 days. Compare the current article with a version that was not copied from the [[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]] and was 7 days older and I would happily pull the plug on this
::::::::::also please make sure that the new (non copied) prose is less than DYK length requirement [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::: {{u|FuzzyMagma}}:
:::::::::::* when you are referring to "the similarity in the lead which I copied as I said on 20 of October", are you just referring to the fact that, in {{diff2|1181062784|the diff you provided}}, you copied the {{tl|multiple image}} template from the "September 1983 Laws" article to the "Islamism in Sudan" article? i don't think that's relevant. i was comparing the prose, not the images nor the captions. i believe wp:dyksplit also only considers the text in the prose. in addition, the last earwig comparison i provided uses a version of the "Islamism in Sudan" article that predates the addition of the duplicated images. by the way, the duplicated images weren't what initially caught my eye either.{{pb}}
:::::::::::* i didn't conclude that the articles are the same because some of the text matches. i said that "more than 20% of the current text in the 'September 1983 Laws' article had already appeared in mainspace before the article was created", and therefore concluded that "this article was ineligible when you nominated it". the articles are clearly different, but i believe they are not different enough for the "September 1983 Laws" article to be eligible for dyk. wp:dyksplit allows splits to be eligible for dyk "if the copied text does not exceed one-fifth of the total prose size", but this is not the case here.{{pb}}
:::::::::::* i am not sure why you are stating that i should "[c]ompare the current article with a version that was not copied from the [[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]] and was 7 days older". i believe that is what i already did. [https://archive.today/20231108033818/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1178053539 the earwig comparison] i had previously provided is a comparison between the "September 1983 Laws" article on 2023.11.08, and a version of the "Islamism in Sudan" article on 2023.10.01, nearly three weeks before you nominated the "September 1983 Laws" article at dyk.{{pb}}i can provide another one that shows that the duplicated text was in mainspace much earlier than that if you'd like. [https://archive.today/20231114204544/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1173166984 this earwig comparison] clearly shows that more than 20% of the prose of the current "September 1983 Laws" article was already present in the mainspace "Islamism in Sudan" article on 2023.08.31, fifty days before the dyk nomination.{{pb}}
::::::::::: regardless, you don't seem to have noticed what i was trying to do with the last paragraph of my previous comment, so i will be more clear. i was trying to give you a decent out. being unfamiliar with wp:dyksplit, or unaware that this nomination violated that criterion, is an understandable error, so you won't suffer much reputational damage for withdrawing a nomination if that was the case.{{pb}}you probably didn't realize this, but i had actually chosen to bring this up as a wp:dyksplit issue as a favor to you. there are a number of other issues with this nomination, and citing wp:dyksplit seemed the least accusatory of the options. did you want to take the out now? [[User:Dying|dying]] ([[User talk:Dying|talk]]) 22:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::“trying to give you a decent out.”!!!
::::::::::::“reputational damage”!!!
::::::::::::” as a favor to you”!!!
::::::::::::bro, Are you ok?! I thought we normally need to assume good faith!
::::::::::::weird!
::::::::::::is that how you normally say “sorry”? Or “I was wrong” or “oops”!
::::::::::::I just debunked your half-baked detective work so just stick to the facts and do nothing for me please
::::::::::::no one asked you for favours 🤦‍♂️ [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 00:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::alll righty, let's everyone take a step back. {{yo|FuzzyMagma}} The crux of the matter seems to be that per [https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=&oldid=1184788026&use_engine=0&use_links=0&turnitin=0&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1178053539 this earwig report], more than 20% of the current version of [[September 1983 Laws]] had already existed, in mainspace, at [[Islamism in Sudan]], for over two weeks. That means that [[September 1983 Laws]] is neither new nor a fivefold expansion. Unless you dispute that claim/I'm grossly misreading the diffs, I'm pulling this article. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 01:07, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{outdent}} I already beaten this claim to the ground earlier. Just recycling old arguments does not make it new. Above I clearly outlined that, see my comment that started with “No worries. Just for clarification, I was the one who expanded the …”
:it was not fun to defend myself and work, like I copied someone else work when I was the one who wrote the three articles in question and picked one that I thought interesting for DYK
:am I to be expected to argue with someone who shifted their argument three times? I did refuted their claim three times and then just decided this is not about the article this is someone who does not like to be wrong
:I had the same encounter in [[Template:Did you know nominations/Sarah Gadallah Gubara]] with the same editor and yet kept my cool down and sliced through this one and the other one.
:Typically when you understand that you made a bad call, you apologise or just quietly walk way. We all been there BUT doubling (tripling!) down when your argument doesn’t hold water and starting using some above language is just strange!
:I leave it to you to decide. And just for the sake of closing this. Even if you remove the text with 20% similarity in the articles, you will still have an article that is more than the DYK required prose length, i.e., The problem has nothing to do with [[WP:DYKSPLIT]] which states that "{{tq|Articles featured at DYK must exceed 1500 characters of prose. Text that is not original does not count, including text copied from the public domain and from other Wikipedia articles. }}". Still I did some paraphrasing to just ease your mind, [https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&oldid=&use_engine=0&use_links=0&turnitin=0&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1178053539 see here]. Hope this resolve this situation [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::{{yo|FuzzyMagma}} The relevant text from [[WP:DYKSPLIT]] is {{tq|Splits from non-new articles are ineligible, but if the copied text does not exceed one-fifth of the total prose size, the article can be considered eligible as a fivefold expansion of the copied text.}} It doesn't matter that the text is originally yours, or even originally from this article – if that text appears in mainspace over two weeks, elsewhere, before this article does, the text in the article isn't new and the above part of DYKSPLIT applies. With that in mind, I'm going to pull. I suggest you stop levying personal attacks at {{u|dying}} – [[WP:ANI]] would be the place to go if you have a legitimate grievance with their behavior in this thread. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 19:43, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::[[WP:ANI]] will not help and would likely just increase bad blood. It only really helps if one party is clearly engaging in persistent misbehavior. [[User:Rjjiii|Rjjiii]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii#top|talk]]) 20:36, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Definitely a fair point – i didn't think FM should file a thread there, and I didn't when I said that, but if they have a user-conduct issue, it's better there than here. Ideally, the stick could just be dropped. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 20:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Rjjiii|Rjjiii]] Maybe you need to read this vomit [[Template:Did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws]] at the end [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 09:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{u|FuzzyMagma}}, you nominated an ineligible article for DYK. I would seriously recommend [[WP:STICK|dropping that stick]] right about now. [[User:AirshipJungleman29|~~ AirshipJungleman29]] ([[User talk:AirshipJungleman29|talk]]) 09:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Are we reading the same [[ Template:Did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws]]? Have a look to the end of the “discussion” and if you think I am the one with a stick then I can gladly put it where it belongs [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 10:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::And assume good faith even if you think it’s ineligible. Mistakes happens but slander is intentional [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 10:06, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Delanie Sheehan]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Delanie Sheehan|nom]]) ==

Hope it's OK to ask, I've got an unreviewed nomination with a forthcoming date request for this weekend (Nov 11). It would bump the photo hook in Queue 5 if I have my time conversions right. Thanks in advance for considering. [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) 14:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:I have reviewed the nomination and it's good to go. I shall leave it to the promoter to decide whether this should be a special occasion hook. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 20:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
::{{ping|Aoidh|p=,}} you approved [[:Template:Did you know/Queue/5|Queue 5]]—would you consider swapping this date request hook into that picture slot? I notice there are three species and only one bio in the set, not that I'm unbiased. Also pinging {{ping|Vaticidalprophet|Fritzmann2002|p=}} as builders of the set. It's okay if it doesn't work out but I'd appreciate if you took a look. [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) 21:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:::I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to perhaps swapping one out of the hooks (perhaps the penultimate ''Lessons in Chemistry'' hook to balance out the bio/non-bio pattern) but I don't think the hook or image are interesting enough to bump out the image slot of an already assembled and promoted prep a little over a day before that set will hit the Main Page, <s>when there's also a bio image in the queue that precedes it</s>. {{Reply to|Vaticidalprophet}} You added the image slot to that set, what are your thoughts on that? - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 22:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I agree with {{tq|I don't think the hook or image are interesting enough to bump out the image slot of an already assembled and promoted prep a little over a day before that set will hit the Main Page}}, but don't think the presence of another bio image has any influence on that -- there's rough consensus that "no consecutive bio images, ever" is overly strict/that they can double-up sometimes, and we've had very few lately. [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidal]][[User talk:Vaticidalprophet|prophet]] 22:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::Well yes, I agree that if that were the only issue then there wouldn't be an issue, but I added that to point out that there are some reasons (some more solid than others) to not bump out the current image slot, that being the least solid one which is why I included it last (literally as an afterthought). - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 22:38, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::That last point [[Special:Diff/1184363033|is moot anyways]], but I'd be fine with swapping ''Lessons in Chemistry''. - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 23:48, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I'd also be fine with that swap (I really should've queried that hook at DYKN). [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidal]][[User talk:Vaticidalprophet|prophet]] 00:12, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::{{Done}} - [[Special:Diff/1184369782|Added to Queue 5]]. - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 00:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Thanks Vati and Aoidh, glad it could fit in somewhere. [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) 01:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:Did you know/Queue/2|Queue 2]] ==
=== [[Sarah Jane Baker]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Sarah Jane Baker|nom]]) ===

Looks fine to me, but I'll open this one to anyone else who wants to take a look, since it's a BLP and I made my thoughts on it clear pre-promotion :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 21:54, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

=== [[Saikabo]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Saikabo|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Toobigtokale|ZKang123|AirshipJungleman29}} I've '''bumped''' this one out because the hook accepts a statement from the article's subject as fact (the paper it's sourced to quotes the author, rather than repeating it in their own voice). Could we find another one? [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

:Oops good catch. How about this: {{tq|... that the Korean restaurant in Japan '''[[Saikabo]]''' suffered a 30% drop in sales after the South Korean president visited the disputed [[Liancourt Rocks]]?}} [https://www.hani.co.kr/arti/international/japan/694402.html]
:This is another fact sourced from the subject, although it's repeated in the journalist's voice.
:Alternatively: {{tq|... that the Korean restaurant chain in Japan '''[[Saikabo]]''' has a [[kimchi]] museum in its original location?}} [https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/1997/03/26/national/shop-owner-opens-kimchi-museum/]
:I have no preference for either hook, please feel free to choose whichever or request alternatives if needed. [[User:Toobigtokale|toobigtokale]] ([[User talk:Toobigtokale|talk]]) 23:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Toobigtokale|toobigtokale]]: The first one is actually a lot better, thanks! I've swapped it in :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 20:35, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Sorry but the hook as drafted and showing on the main page is embarrassing; grammatically poor and implies that there is one Korean restaurant in Japan. It should say something like '...that Saikabo, a Korean restaurant in Japan, suffered...' [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 12:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== DYK suggestions? ==

# ... that '''[[Gordon Scozzari]]''', a 21-year-old [[professional wrestling|pro wrestling fan]], started his own [[wrestling promotion]] featuring stars from around the world? Source: {{cite web |url=https://slamwrestling.net/index.php/2022/09/12/unraveling-the-myths-of-gordon-scozzari/ |title=Unraveling the myths of Gordon Scozzari |last=Plombon |first=Jonathan |date=September 12, 2022 |website=[[SLAM! Wrestling|SlamWrestling.net]] |publisher= |access-date= |quote=}}

# ... that '''[[Max Thrasher]]''' was a [[substitute teacher]] during his [[professional wrestling|pro wrestling career]]? Source: {{cite web |url=https://www.ycs.k12.pa.us/jackson/message-from-the-principal/ |title=Meet the Principals |author= |date= |website=Jackson School, K-8 |publisher=[[York City School District]] |archive-url=http://web.archive.org/web/20180819195229/https://www.ycs.k12.pa.us/jackson/message-from-the-principal/ |archive-date=August 19, 2018 |quote=}}
## '''ALT2''' ... that '''[[Max Thrasher]]''' retired from [[professional wrestling|pro wrestling]] to become a [[public school]] [[teacher]] and later a [[school principal]]? Source: {{cite news |last=Lee |first=Rick |date=September 17, 2001 |title=PHIL LIVELSBERGER, BIOLOGY TEACHER AND PRO WRESTLER; Wrapping up one career and taking off in another, he's gone from 'bad, bad guy' to teacher |page=3A |work=[[York Daily Record]] |location= |access-date=}}

[[Special:Contributions/173.162.220.17|173.162.220.17]] ([[User talk:173.162.220.17|talk]]) 17:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
:Both of those articles have maintenance tags, and because I don't know that you don't have five credits already, I'd want to see two QPQs.--[[User:Launchballer|Laun]][[User talk:Launchballer|chba]][[Special:Contribs/Launchballer|ller]] 21:22, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
::I see 4 credits from DYKUpdateBot – although technically, none of those were nominated by the IP, they were proxied. Still, though, a QPQ would be in order. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 21:26, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
:::The wrestling IP has been nominating regularly since 2012 (or earlier, but I happened to read that archive lately). On the one hand, QPQs have obviously been due for a while. On the other hand, dynamic IP makes it hard to track that the reviewer is the same person + suddenly springing this is a little difficult. [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidal]][[User talk:Vaticidalprophet|prophet]] 21:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I understand if the IP would rather not have an account, but would it be possible to ask them to create one if only for the purposes of tracking and organization? [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 02:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:Did you know/Queue/3|Queue 3]] ==

Really lovely to see a new promoter get in the mix, [[User:Fritzmann2002|Fritzmann2002]]! Good job :)
=== [[North Nias Regency]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/North Nias Regency|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Nyanardsan|Piotrus}} same thing as [[Special:Diff/1184200164|here]], but I've bumped instead of pulled :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Theleekycauldron|Theleekycauldron]] Fair point, I support putting this on hold until the citations are properly formatted with cite templates. That also includes expanding stuff like "Badan Pusat Statistik, Jakarta, 2021" - what is this? A book? A brochure? [[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User talk:Piotrus| reply here]] 01:25, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
::There is a helpful redirect at [[Badan Pusat Statistik]]. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 02:12, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

== Thanksgiving/Harvest-Themed DYK Set ==

With the recent success of the Halloween DYK set, I'm wondering, what do you guys think of a Thanksgiving-based DYK set for November 23rd? I know that the holiday is most often American in nature, which understandably leads to worries that it's American-oriented, but if we're looking at the wiki page for [[Thanksgiving]], it is celebrated to different extents in various countries, albeit on different dates. This is very shaky, so I can definitely understand not doing it, but at the same time, it would be an interesting drive towards improving and/or creating articles based on Thanksgiving and/or harvests similar to Halloween, and it's very difficult to incentivize such major changes otherwise. [[User:PrimalMustelid|PrimalMustelid]] ([[User talk:PrimalMustelid|talk]]) 01:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:I'm sympathetic to the idea, but like you said, the America centrism might open a whole can of worms. I understand most of our readers are from the Anglosphere and thus have probably at least heard of Thanksgiving. However, it would open up questions about why not do similar themed sets for holidays from other countries. After all, we had that St. James Day set a few months ago which itself was a cause of controversy, and I don't think changing the setting from Spain to America would help thing.
:I think having one, maybe two at most Thanksgiving hooks on that date might work as a compromise, but a full set might lead to accusations of us being US-centric. After all, in almost all other cases, when non-Anglophone special sets have been suggested there had been little interest or drive, so Thanksgiving being given special treatment might be seen as unfair. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 02:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
:I suggest that it’s rather close to the target date; that might be a practical problem. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 02:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
::Not to mention, while some of us celebrate the day as Thanksgiving, for others it is the [[National Day of Mourning (United States protest)|National Day of Mourning]] [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 11:52, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
::: One or two hooks for Thanksgiving would be great. Maybe not a set. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 01:34, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[User:WugBot|WugBot]] failing to move noms to [[WP:DYKNA]] ==

My nom, [[Template:Did you know nominations/DOM Clobbering|DOM Clobbering]] has been approved by [[User:Clyde Franklin|Clyde Franklin]] for a while (~ 12 hrs) but WugBot doesn't seem to moving the nom to the approved nominations page. Could somebody uninvolved with the nom move it over :) (also ping [[User:Wugapodes|Wugapodes]] as the maintainer of the bot.) [[User:Sohom Datta|Sohom]] ([[User talk:Sohom Datta|talk]]) 17:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

:I've seen it take several hours in the past. It might be something to do with the checklist, because that's the only context I see it in. I don't use the checklist, so can't speculate on what could be the cause. [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidal]][[User talk:Vaticidalprophet|prophet]] 17:48, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::The review was written below the "Please do not write below this line" line, which means that the review was not actually in the nomination subpage template, but rather after it. Let's see if the bot moves it, now that I've fixed that (as well as some other template errors). '''[[User:Mandarax|MANdARAX]] • [[User talk:Mandarax#top|XAЯAbИAM]]''' 18:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Yay! that worked :) [[User:Sohom Datta|Sohom]] ([[User talk:Sohom Datta|talk]]) 21:08, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Whoops. [[User:ClydeFranklin|Clyde]] [[User talk:ClydeFranklin|[trout needed]]] 21:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Well, ''that'' didn't actually work, but the following did: When the bot didn't move it at 19:00 UTC, I took one more stab at it. The {{tl|DYK checklist}} had <code>|status = y</code> and I thought the bot may expect the "y" without an intervening comment, so I moved the "y", and ''then'' the bot moved the nom at 21:01 UTC. [[User:ClydeFranklin|Clyde]], for any future reviews, please remember to put your input ''before'' the comment. '''[[User:Mandarax|MANdARAX]] • [[User talk:Mandarax#top|XAЯAbИAM]]''' 21:25, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::Oh I see, though it does feel like something the bot should handle. [[User:Sohom Datta|Sohom]] ([[User talk:Sohom Datta|talk]]) 21:35, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yes, it should, but for now at least we know what to avoid/look for. '''[[User:Mandarax|MANdARAX]] • [[User talk:Mandarax#top|XAЯAbИAM]]''' 21:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

== Older nominations needing DYK reviewers ==

The previous list was archived a couple of hours ago, so I've created a new list of the first 36 nominations that need reviewing in the Older nominations section of the Nominations page, covering everything through October 21. We have a total of 241 nominations, of which 85 have been approved, a gap of 156 nominations that has increased by 12 over the past 9 days. Thanks to everyone who reviews these and any other nominations.

'''More than three months old'''
*August 6: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Herb Dell]]
'''More than two months old'''
*<s>September 2: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Michigan prosecution of fake electors]]</s>
*September 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/25 Water Street]]
*September 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Louise Franklin]] (reviewer needed for ALT2)
*<s>September 6: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Deli 613]]</s>
*<s>September 13: [[Template:Did you know nominations/SPICES (Scouting)]]</s>
'''More than one month old'''
*<s>September 18: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Luca Salsi]]</s>
*September 20: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Wad el-Mahi]] (reviewer needed for ALT2)
*September 22: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Trần Lập]]
*September 23: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Jewish historiography]]
*September 24: [[Template:Did you know nominations/François Glorieux]]
*September 25: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Yaroslav Hunka]]
*September 26: [[Template:Did you know nominations/The Story Teller (painting)]]
*September 28: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Hoang Thi Minh Hong]]
*October 1: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Sealord Group]]
*October 2: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon]]
*October 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Samuel Sparshott]] (two articles)
*October 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Brillante Jr. (wrestler, born 2001)]]
*October 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Switch Disco]] (two articles)
*October 4: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Kadu Makrani (film)]] (two articles)
*<s>October 5: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Global Engagement Center]]</s>
*October 6: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Malayalam softcore pornography]]
*October 8: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Ligue de Defense de la Race Nègre]]
*October 8: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Shukusei!! Loli Kami Requiem]]
*October 9: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Walker Interactive Products]]
*October 14: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Perry Hartnett]]
*October 14: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Georgia Twinn]]
'''Other nominations'''
*<s>October 15: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Conversations about Important Things]]</s>
*October 15: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Turbo Dismount]]
*October 16: [[Template:Did you know nominations/John Ernest Adamson]]
*October 16: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Harry Crosbie]]
*<s>October 17: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Dan Blumenthal]]</s>
*October 17: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Vanessa Weenink]] (28 articles)
*<s>October 18: [[Template:Did you know nominations/I don't know her]]</s>
*October 19: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Coriantumr (Last Jaredite King)]] (three articles)
*October 21: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Maryam Eslamdoust]]

Please remember to cross off entries, including the date, as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Please do not remove them entirely. Many thanks! [[User:BlueMoonset|BlueMoonset]] ([[User talk:BlueMoonset|talk]]) 04:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:Did you know/Queue/2|Next queue]] Q2 ==

There is a mismatch between hooks and credits in Q2:
* Jim Rich has hook but is not in Credits.
* LGBT history in Massachusetts is in Credits but hook appeared on 8 November.
* Flathead Lake Biological Station has hook but no Credit.
* Rachel Yakar has Credit but no hook.
[[User:JennyOz|JennyOz]] ([[User talk:JennyOz|talk]]) 05:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, [[User:JennyOz|Jenny]]. I've had a look at this. {{u|PrimalMustelid}}, when you move hooks around, you must move them together with their credits. I'll tidy this up now; I suspect the problem also exists in Q4 (where some of those hooks moved to). '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 08:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::Sorry about that, I wasn't aware of the existence of credits in preps/queues pages while I was manually editing the DYK pages, thanks for letting me know. [[User:PrimalMustelid|PrimalMustelid]] ([[User talk:PrimalMustelid|talk]]) 13:28, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:Q2 has been fixed and Q4 was all correct. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 08:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you for patches {{U|Schwede66|Schwede}}. [[User:JennyOz|JennyOz]] ([[User talk:JennyOz|talk]]) 10:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:Did you know/Queue/4|Queue 4]] ==

=== [[Chancellor Hut]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Chancellor Hut|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Panamitsu|Thriley|PrimalMustelid}} I've '''bumped''' this one, because sources in the article disagree as to whether the hook is true. [https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/destinations/nz/west-coast/87413616/liz-carlson-an-aweinspiring-glacial-experience-on-fox-glacier Carlson 2023] says it's "one of the oldest", while [https://www.heritage.org.nz/list-details/5479/Chancellor%20Hut Heritage New Zealand] says it's the oldest at "high level". [https://www.wildernessmag.co.nz/changes-at-chancellor/ Van Noorden (not Hall) 2013] does say it's the oldest. I'd like a more definitive source than any of these, or a clear consensus, before going with this hook. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:I'd say that the hook is correct as it is. Alpine huts often get shifted (sometimes by only a few metres) due to erosion, change of avalanche passes, etc. There are older huts than this one that are not in an alpine environment. What the hook says is that this is the alpine hut that's never been shifted that's oldest. Carlson is probably not wrong by saying that it's "one of the oldest huts in New Zealand in its original position"; note that she is not making the restriction of talking about alpine huts, though. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 23:48, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

=== [[History of Turku]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/History of Turku|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Peltimikko|TSventon|PrimalMustelid}} The original hook didn't appear in the article (as far as I can tell), so I've '''changed''' it to this:
* ... that '''[[History of Turku|Turku remained the largest city in Finland]]''' after three quarters of it burned down?
Let me know if you'd like something else, thanks :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{yo|theleekycauldron}} I think I wrongly assumed that the 16th century was still the Middle Ages, but in any case I prefer your hook to the original. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 23:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::I was more driving at "second most important" {{!=}} "second largest", but yeah, either way. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 00:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:I also can't say that I'm a fan of how much article is sourced to webpages made by the city, but I think I've trimmed it back to a more acceptable level. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:24, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

=== [[Gembong Warsono]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Gembong Warsono|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Juxlos|Piotrus}} I've '''bumped''' this one, both because there's already another Indonesian politics hook in the set ({{u|PrimalMustelid}}, trout :P) and because I'm not entirely sure that it's interesting for a politician to criticize a leader of the opposing party. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:As I said in the nom, the hook is not very interesting, but nobody had an idea for anything better. Sometimes, notable people are just plain boring... shrug. [[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User talk:Piotrus| reply here]] 02:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::In such cases it may be better to simply not nominate them for DYK at all, instead simply focus efforts on more feasible subjects. There's also no shame in failing nominations because there's simply no suitably interesting hook: it's already a DYK criterion that hooks have to be interesting, and that not being met should be a cause for rejection just like any other criterion. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 04:11, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Well, it’s the "German dumpsters" part I thought could be somewhat interesting. [[User:Juxlos|Juxlos]] ([[User talk:Juxlos|talk]]) 02:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::This is a politician who [https://jakarta.tribunnews.com/2023/02/28/profil-gembong-warsono-sudah-jadi-teman-diskusi-petinggi-pdi-meski-masih-jabat-pengurus-kecamatan?page=4 according to the Jakarta Tribune] avoided the [[27 July 1996 incident]] where some of his colleagues died because he went home early. According to the article, this was an event that (understandably) defined his later party political choices. I'm not sure why those details aren't in the article, and if they were I feel they'd fit into something hooky. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 03:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Rereading with Juxlos' comment in mind I've come around to that too. Is "... that Indonesian politician '''[[Gembong Warsono]]''' once criticized the use of German dumpsters?" a bit snappier? [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 07:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

===[[Roberts Point Track]]===
This has just gone live. Immediately prior, {{u|theleekycauldron}} removed this wikilink: <nowiki>[[Hiking in New Zealand|tramping track in New Zealand]]</nowiki>. Having lived in New Zealand for a few decades now and having seen blank faces too many times when I mentioned the word "tramping" to foreigners, I don't think that removing the wikilink is a good idea. There are too many people who do not know that "tramping" is the local lingo for "hiking". '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 00:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{yo|Schwede66}} perhaps we shouldn't be using localisms in the first place? [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 00:52, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::I don't know. "Tramping" is deeply entrenched, e.g. it's a tramping track, a tramping hut, tramping gear. To call it "hiking" would feel wrong to New Zealand ears. Spelling of hooks, and choice of words, follows the language variant used in the target article. I can't really think why that should be any different with [[New Zealand English]]. You wouldn't use "autumn" in a North American hook, would you? When I read "fall" for the season, I always have to think about what that refers to. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 00:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::I can see where you're coming from, but you also have to remember that the Main Page has readership from around the world. Not everyone is going to know every localism out there, and one word that may have a common definition in one Anglophone country can be the same in another. The way I see it, there's two solutions for this: use the word "hiking" (as in the title or the article), or keep the link for the benefit of non-Kiwis. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 03:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I'd keep the link. I didn't see the April 2023 move discussion that resulted in [[Hiking in New Zealand]]; had I seen that, I would have certainly objected. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 03:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::It was me that added the wikilink to the hook for the word ''[[Hiking in New Zealand|tramping]]'' when I did the original hook review. Very much because, although it is the common term in NZ, it will be less well known around the world. I agree with @[[User:Schwede66|Schwede66]]. ''Resonant[[User_talk:ResonantDistortion|Dis''tor''tion]]'' 13:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Britten's birthday, 22 November ==

[[Canticle I: My beloved is mine and I am his]] was written with the idea in mind to feature it on [[Benjamin Britten]]'s birthday, 22 November, which is also the feast day of St. Cecilia, patron saint of music. Sorry, I had other things on my mind, but would like to return to the tradition. It would need a review, and a swap as the prep (2) is already full. Sorry about the inconvenience. -- [[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 20:57, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Where is the QPQ confirmation tool? ==

Looking for link to the tool you use to confirm if it's indeed one of the nominator's first five DYK nominations? [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 05:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

:Probably the most reliable way is to go [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/Cielquiparle/10 here] and change the URL, to see someone's creations in template space. There's the "QPQ checker" tool in the DYK toolbox at every nompage, but it checks credits, not nominations. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 06:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::Where exactly is the "QPQ checker tool in the DYK toolbox at every nompage"? I just know I used to be able to find it easily under "useful tools" but am having trouble locating it now. [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 11:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Ah it is in the DYK toolbox. I see it now. [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 11:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Reopening a DYK discussion ==

Hello!
A little while ago, I nominated the article [[Isaac Saul]] for DYK, but it was rejected because it was embroiled in an AfD debate (and it was ultimately deleted for lack of high-quality sources). Since then, though, I have substantially expanded the number of sources, republished the article, and I believe it's ready. Do you know what I can do to get this nomination reopened? I can't just nominate it manually, because the page "Template: Did you know nominations/Isaac Saul" is already occupied with the discussion from the old nomination. [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 16:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Did you know

2023-11-17T16:54:13Z

Mover of molehills: /* Reopening a DYK discussion */ new question

[[Category:Wikipedia Did you know discussion pages]]
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This is where the '''[[Wikipedia:Did you know|Did you know]]''' section on the main page, its policies, and its processes can be discussed.

== september 1983 laws ==

: {{hlist
| [[September 1983 Laws|article]]
| [[template:did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws|nomination]]
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know#Hooks|set]] (main page)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text=%{%{DYK talk|title=talk:September 1983 Laws|plain=f}} | <s>set</s> (already ran)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text=dykdate *=|title=talk:September 1983 Laws|plain=f}} | <s>set</s> (already ran)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/1|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/1#Hooks|set]] (q1)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/2|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/2#Hooks|set]] (q2)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/3|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/3#Hooks|set]] (q3)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/4|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/4#Hooks|set]] (q4)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/5|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/5#Hooks|set]] (q5)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/6|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/6#Hooks|set]] (q6)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Queue/7|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Queue/7#Hooks|set]] (q7)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 1|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 1#Hooks|set]] (p1)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 2|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 2#Hooks|set]] (p2)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 3|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 3#Hooks|set]] (p3)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 4|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 4#Hooks|set]] (p4)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 5|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 5#Hooks|set]] (p5)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 6|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 6#Hooks|set]] (p6)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text='''%[%[September 1983 Laws[{{!}}%]]|title=template:did you know/Preparation area 7|plain=f}} | [[template:did you know/Preparation area 7#Hooks|set]] (p7)
| {{#if: {{find page text|text=The result was: '''promoted'''|title=template:did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws|plain=f}} | <s>set</s> (not found)
| <s>set</s> (not promoted)
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
}}
:: {{small|{{hlist
| [[user:FuzzyMagma|nominator]]
| [[user:Rjjiii|reviewer]]
| [[user:Vaticidalprophet|promoter]]
| [[user:theleekycauldron|queuer]]
}}}}

i am sorry to mention this, but unfortunately, it looks like {{oldid2|1180397132|the initial version}} of this article was largely copied from the "[[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]]" article (specifically, {{oldid2|1180137009|this version}}), and the nominated article is currently not long enough to satisfy the eligibility criteria mentioned at [[WP:DYKSPLIT|wp:dyksplit]]. a comparison via earwig of the aforementioned article versions can be found [https://archive.today/20231104003914/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&oldid=1180397132&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1180137009 here]. neither the edit summaries nor the talk pages appear to mention the split, so i can understand why this issue may have been missed before.{{pb}}to be clear, i don't know if there is a copyright, close paraphrasing, or attribution issue here. it's possible that all the copied text was originally written by the nominator or was already in the public domain to begin with; i simply haven't had the time to check. i am only raising this as a wp:dyksplit issue. i remember there was another dyk hook that was mistakenly accepted and ran on the main page last month, even though it did not satisfy wp:dyksplit, so i just wanted to raise this issue before the hook was scheduled to appear on the main page. apologies if i am missing something obvious. [[User:Dying|dying]] ([[User talk:Dying|talk]]) 01:59, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

:Well dang. "{{tq| it's possible that all the copied text was originally written by the nominator}}" the copied text seems to come from the nominator's 30 August 2023 rewrite of [[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]]. [[User:Rjjiii|Rjjiii]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii#top|talk]]) 03:16, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
:good catch, {{u|dying}}! have pulled :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 07:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Theleekycauldron|Theleekycauldron]] given how this conversation went (see dying response and mine below), are you going to put it back? [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 07:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]]: done :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 05:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Dying|Dying]] to add to the previous point "{{tq|it's possible that all the copied text was originally written by the nominator}}". The text you mentioned was moved not copied and expanded way beyond what beyond the version that you used in earwig. How about you do the earwig analysis with the current version of [[September 1983 Laws]] and if you reach the same conclusion, I am happy for the hook to go [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 07:52, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::Btw you can just click on both articles stats and see who is main contributor so you will to know if “{{tq|that all the copied text was originally written by the nominator}}”. You did the crazy bit of comparing two old versions of two different articles why not do the easy bit too [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
:::if it's established that [[September 1983 Laws]] is at least 80% new text, this nomination can go forward. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 08:07, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::If that is the rule even when I wrote both articles around similar time and decided the split when one ran too broad while nominating one and leaving the other; then I guess I will wait for the article to pass GA [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:14, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{yo|FuzzyMagma}} if you split the text less than seven days after publishing to mainspace, it's still new if you nominate within seven days of putting it in mainspace? [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 08:18, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::I moved the Nation Reconciliation article to the mainspace on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_Reconciliation_(Sudan)&diff=prev&oldid=1179986651 13 October] and the September 1983 Laws article was created on 16 October. So yes less than 7 days [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::: oh, i completely missed that the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article was moved to mainspace shortly before the article was split! thanks for pointing that out, FuzzyMagma. also, although the article was moved to mainspace just over a week before the nomination, i'm happy to let that slide.{{pb}}interestingly, the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article wasn't actually the article i had first compared the nominated article with; i only ended up stumbling upon that after a bit of digging. i think what had first caught my eye was the similarity between the nominated article with the "[[Islamism in Sudan]]" article. the latter article was first created in mainspace in 2020. according to [https://archive.today/20231104092118/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIslamism_in_Sudan this earwig comparison], there seems to be more than a 20% overlap between these two articles. if the overlap with "[[Sudanese Greeks]]" ([https://archive.today/20231104092145/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSudanese_Greeks here]) and "[[Legal system of Sudan]]" ([https://archive.today/20231104092304/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLegal_system_of_Sudan here]) are also taken into account, it seems as if expanding the nominated article to satisfy the fivefold expansion requirement at this point would be difficult to achieve.{{pb}}apologies for the confusion caused by using the comparison with the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article. at the time, it looked like presenting that comparison would have made the issue more obvious. [[User:Dying|dying]] ([[User talk:Dying|talk]]) 09:59, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::No worries. Just for clarification, I was the one who expanded the [[Islamism in Sudan]] article from a stub to the existing size (by [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Islamism%20in%20Sudan 90.2%]) starting from [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamism_in_Sudan&diff=prev&oldid=1173166984 31 August 2023] and did not nominate the article as it relayed on one source and I need to improve so it can fit the front page. The text the might have started all of this, as you said, was copied later on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamism_in_Sudan&diff=prev&oldid=1181062784 20 October] from the [[September 1983 Laws]] and not the other way around. [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 10:38, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::: i'm sorry, {{u|FuzzyMagma}}, it looks like you misinterpreted what i was trying to say. the date that the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article was moved to mainspace is irrelevant because the copied material previously appeared in the "Islamism in Sudan" article. if only the date that the "National Reconciliation (Sudan)" article was moved to mainspace mattered, then editors can effectively renew text copied from other articles by first copying the text to an intermediary article in draftspace first.{{pb}}i'm not sure why you provided {{diff2|1181062784|the diff}} dated 2023.10.20. the only substantial text copied there appears to be an accidental duplication of some caption text into the prose, which you later removed anyway in {{diff2|1183447014|this diff}}. i suppose you could say that the text was copied from the "September 1983 Laws" article to the "Islamism in Sudan" article, but that's simply because it was already in both articles before you duplicated it in the "Islamism in Sudan" article. in any case, the duplicated caption text wasn't what initially caught my eye anyway.{{pb}}the comparison i provided in my last comment between the "September 1983 Laws" and "Islamism in Sudan" articles was based on the latest versions at the time because you had requested that i compare the then-current versions in your earlier comments. to make more clear what text was copied, [https://archive.today/20231108033818/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1178053539 here] is a comparison between the current "September 1983 Laws" article and the "Islamism in Sudan" article at the time the "September 1983 Laws" article was created. this comparison clearly shows that more than 20% of the current text in the "September 1983 Laws" article had already appeared in mainspace before the article was created.{{pb}}i think it is possible that you had actually copied the text in question from a different article, or even from an offline draft, but had lost track of what text you were copying to which articles, and didn't realize when you created the new "September 1983 Laws" article that you had already copied much of the text to the old "Islamism in Sudan" article more than a month earlier. if so, that would explain why you may not have realized that this article was ineligible when you nominated it. [[User:Dying|dying]] ([[User talk:Dying|talk]]) 03:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::I don’t agree with your statement. the comparison that you are showing is the current [[September 1983 Laws]] with a version of [[Islamism in Sudan]], I know that from the similarity in the lead which I copied as I said on 20 of October. So you cannot hyperbolically make the jump that because some of text match now equals that they are the same.
::::::::::i don’t think I misunderstood anything, you start your argument with comparisons from the [[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]] which I dismissed, shifted later to [[Islamism in Sudan]] stating that the article existed since 2020 which I again dismissed by I pointing out that actually I am the one who expanded the article starting 30 August 2023, and you now again shifted to compare recent versions of the articles.
::::::::::anyway, the two versions that you compared were within almost the 7 days. Compare the current article with a version that was not copied from the [[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]] and was 7 days older and I would happily pull the plug on this
::::::::::also please make sure that the new (non copied) prose is less than DYK length requirement [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::: {{u|FuzzyMagma}}:
:::::::::::* when you are referring to "the similarity in the lead which I copied as I said on 20 of October", are you just referring to the fact that, in {{diff2|1181062784|the diff you provided}}, you copied the {{tl|multiple image}} template from the "September 1983 Laws" article to the "Islamism in Sudan" article? i don't think that's relevant. i was comparing the prose, not the images nor the captions. i believe wp:dyksplit also only considers the text in the prose. in addition, the last earwig comparison i provided uses a version of the "Islamism in Sudan" article that predates the addition of the duplicated images. by the way, the duplicated images weren't what initially caught my eye either.{{pb}}
:::::::::::* i didn't conclude that the articles are the same because some of the text matches. i said that "more than 20% of the current text in the 'September 1983 Laws' article had already appeared in mainspace before the article was created", and therefore concluded that "this article was ineligible when you nominated it". the articles are clearly different, but i believe they are not different enough for the "September 1983 Laws" article to be eligible for dyk. wp:dyksplit allows splits to be eligible for dyk "if the copied text does not exceed one-fifth of the total prose size", but this is not the case here.{{pb}}
:::::::::::* i am not sure why you are stating that i should "[c]ompare the current article with a version that was not copied from the [[National Reconciliation (Sudan)]] and was 7 days older". i believe that is what i already did. [https://archive.today/20231108033818/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1178053539 the earwig comparison] i had previously provided is a comparison between the "September 1983 Laws" article on 2023.11.08, and a version of the "Islamism in Sudan" article on 2023.10.01, nearly three weeks before you nominated the "September 1983 Laws" article at dyk.{{pb}}i can provide another one that shows that the duplicated text was in mainspace much earlier than that if you'd like. [https://archive.today/20231114204544/https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1173166984 this earwig comparison] clearly shows that more than 20% of the prose of the current "September 1983 Laws" article was already present in the mainspace "Islamism in Sudan" article on 2023.08.31, fifty days before the dyk nomination.{{pb}}
::::::::::: regardless, you don't seem to have noticed what i was trying to do with the last paragraph of my previous comment, so i will be more clear. i was trying to give you a decent out. being unfamiliar with wp:dyksplit, or unaware that this nomination violated that criterion, is an understandable error, so you won't suffer much reputational damage for withdrawing a nomination if that was the case.{{pb}}you probably didn't realize this, but i had actually chosen to bring this up as a wp:dyksplit issue as a favor to you. there are a number of other issues with this nomination, and citing wp:dyksplit seemed the least accusatory of the options. did you want to take the out now? [[User:Dying|dying]] ([[User talk:Dying|talk]]) 22:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::“trying to give you a decent out.”!!!
::::::::::::“reputational damage”!!!
::::::::::::” as a favor to you”!!!
::::::::::::bro, Are you ok?! I thought we normally need to assume good faith!
::::::::::::weird!
::::::::::::is that how you normally say “sorry”? Or “I was wrong” or “oops”!
::::::::::::I just debunked your half-baked detective work so just stick to the facts and do nothing for me please
::::::::::::no one asked you for favours 🤦‍♂️ [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 00:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::alll righty, let's everyone take a step back. {{yo|FuzzyMagma}} The crux of the matter seems to be that per [https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=&oldid=1184788026&use_engine=0&use_links=0&turnitin=0&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1178053539 this earwig report], more than 20% of the current version of [[September 1983 Laws]] had already existed, in mainspace, at [[Islamism in Sudan]], for over two weeks. That means that [[September 1983 Laws]] is neither new nor a fivefold expansion. Unless you dispute that claim/I'm grossly misreading the diffs, I'm pulling this article. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 01:07, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{outdent}} I already beaten this claim to the ground earlier. Just recycling old arguments does not make it new. Above I clearly outlined that, see my comment that started with “No worries. Just for clarification, I was the one who expanded the …”
:it was not fun to defend myself and work, like I copied someone else work when I was the one who wrote the three articles in question and picked one that I thought interesting for DYK
:am I to be expected to argue with someone who shifted their argument three times? I did refuted their claim three times and then just decided this is not about the article this is someone who does not like to be wrong
:I had the same encounter in [[Template:Did you know nominations/Sarah Gadallah Gubara]] with the same editor and yet kept my cool down and sliced through this one and the other one.
:Typically when you understand that you made a bad call, you apologise or just quietly walk way. We all been there BUT doubling (tripling!) down when your argument doesn’t hold water and starting using some above language is just strange!
:I leave it to you to decide. And just for the sake of closing this. Even if you remove the text with 20% similarity in the articles, you will still have an article that is more than the DYK required prose length, i.e., The problem has nothing to do with [[WP:DYKSPLIT]] which states that "{{tq|Articles featured at DYK must exceed 1500 characters of prose. Text that is not original does not count, including text copied from the public domain and from other Wikipedia articles. }}". Still I did some paraphrasing to just ease your mind, [https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=September+1983+Laws&oldid=&use_engine=0&use_links=0&turnitin=0&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Foldid%3D1178053539 see here]. Hope this resolve this situation [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 08:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::{{yo|FuzzyMagma}} The relevant text from [[WP:DYKSPLIT]] is {{tq|Splits from non-new articles are ineligible, but if the copied text does not exceed one-fifth of the total prose size, the article can be considered eligible as a fivefold expansion of the copied text.}} It doesn't matter that the text is originally yours, or even originally from this article – if that text appears in mainspace over two weeks, elsewhere, before this article does, the text in the article isn't new and the above part of DYKSPLIT applies. With that in mind, I'm going to pull. I suggest you stop levying personal attacks at {{u|dying}} – [[WP:ANI]] would be the place to go if you have a legitimate grievance with their behavior in this thread. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 19:43, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::[[WP:ANI]] will not help and would likely just increase bad blood. It only really helps if one party is clearly engaging in persistent misbehavior. [[User:Rjjiii|Rjjiii]] ([[User talk:Rjjiii#top|talk]]) 20:36, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Definitely a fair point – i didn't think FM should file a thread there, and I didn't when I said that, but if they have a user-conduct issue, it's better there than here. Ideally, the stick could just be dropped. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 20:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Rjjiii|Rjjiii]] Maybe you need to read this vomit [[Template:Did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws]] at the end [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 09:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{u|FuzzyMagma}}, you nominated an ineligible article for DYK. I would seriously recommend [[WP:STICK|dropping that stick]] right about now. [[User:AirshipJungleman29|~~ AirshipJungleman29]] ([[User talk:AirshipJungleman29|talk]]) 09:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Are we reading the same [[ Template:Did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws]]? Have a look to the end of the “discussion” and if you think I am the one with a stick then I can gladly put it where it belongs [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 10:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::And assume good faith even if you think it’s ineligible. Mistakes happens but slander is intentional [[User:FuzzyMagma|FuzzyMagma]] ([[User talk:FuzzyMagma|talk]]) 10:06, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Delanie Sheehan]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Delanie Sheehan|nom]]) ==

Hope it's OK to ask, I've got an unreviewed nomination with a forthcoming date request for this weekend (Nov 11). It would bump the photo hook in Queue 5 if I have my time conversions right. Thanks in advance for considering. [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) 14:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

:I have reviewed the nomination and it's good to go. I shall leave it to the promoter to decide whether this should be a special occasion hook. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 20:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
::{{ping|Aoidh|p=,}} you approved [[:Template:Did you know/Queue/5|Queue 5]]—would you consider swapping this date request hook into that picture slot? I notice there are three species and only one bio in the set, not that I'm unbiased. Also pinging {{ping|Vaticidalprophet|Fritzmann2002|p=}} as builders of the set. It's okay if it doesn't work out but I'd appreciate if you took a look. [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) 21:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:::I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to perhaps swapping one out of the hooks (perhaps the penultimate ''Lessons in Chemistry'' hook to balance out the bio/non-bio pattern) but I don't think the hook or image are interesting enough to bump out the image slot of an already assembled and promoted prep a little over a day before that set will hit the Main Page, <s>when there's also a bio image in the queue that precedes it</s>. {{Reply to|Vaticidalprophet}} You added the image slot to that set, what are your thoughts on that? - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 22:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I agree with {{tq|I don't think the hook or image are interesting enough to bump out the image slot of an already assembled and promoted prep a little over a day before that set will hit the Main Page}}, but don't think the presence of another bio image has any influence on that -- there's rough consensus that "no consecutive bio images, ever" is overly strict/that they can double-up sometimes, and we've had very few lately. [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidal]][[User talk:Vaticidalprophet|prophet]] 22:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::Well yes, I agree that if that were the only issue then there wouldn't be an issue, but I added that to point out that there are some reasons (some more solid than others) to not bump out the current image slot, that being the least solid one which is why I included it last (literally as an afterthought). - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 22:38, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::That last point [[Special:Diff/1184363033|is moot anyways]], but I'd be fine with swapping ''Lessons in Chemistry''. - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 23:48, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I'd also be fine with that swap (I really should've queried that hook at DYKN). [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidal]][[User talk:Vaticidalprophet|prophet]] 00:12, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::{{Done}} - [[Special:Diff/1184369782|Added to Queue 5]]. - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 00:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Thanks Vati and Aoidh, glad it could fit in somewhere. [[User:Hameltion|Hameltion]] ([[User talk:Hameltion|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Hameltion|contribs]]) 01:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:Did you know/Queue/2|Queue 2]] ==
=== [[Sarah Jane Baker]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Sarah Jane Baker|nom]]) ===

Looks fine to me, but I'll open this one to anyone else who wants to take a look, since it's a BLP and I made my thoughts on it clear pre-promotion :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 21:54, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

=== [[Saikabo]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Saikabo|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Toobigtokale|ZKang123|AirshipJungleman29}} I've '''bumped''' this one out because the hook accepts a statement from the article's subject as fact (the paper it's sourced to quotes the author, rather than repeating it in their own voice). Could we find another one? [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

:Oops good catch. How about this: {{tq|... that the Korean restaurant in Japan '''[[Saikabo]]''' suffered a 30% drop in sales after the South Korean president visited the disputed [[Liancourt Rocks]]?}} [https://www.hani.co.kr/arti/international/japan/694402.html]
:This is another fact sourced from the subject, although it's repeated in the journalist's voice.
:Alternatively: {{tq|... that the Korean restaurant chain in Japan '''[[Saikabo]]''' has a [[kimchi]] museum in its original location?}} [https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/1997/03/26/national/shop-owner-opens-kimchi-museum/]
:I have no preference for either hook, please feel free to choose whichever or request alternatives if needed. [[User:Toobigtokale|toobigtokale]] ([[User talk:Toobigtokale|talk]]) 23:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Toobigtokale|toobigtokale]]: The first one is actually a lot better, thanks! I've swapped it in :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 20:35, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Sorry but the hook as drafted and showing on the main page is embarrassing; grammatically poor and implies that there is one Korean restaurant in Japan. It should say something like '...that Saikabo, a Korean restaurant in Japan, suffered...' [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 12:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== DYK suggestions? ==

# ... that '''[[Gordon Scozzari]]''', a 21-year-old [[professional wrestling|pro wrestling fan]], started his own [[wrestling promotion]] featuring stars from around the world? Source: {{cite web |url=https://slamwrestling.net/index.php/2022/09/12/unraveling-the-myths-of-gordon-scozzari/ |title=Unraveling the myths of Gordon Scozzari |last=Plombon |first=Jonathan |date=September 12, 2022 |website=[[SLAM! Wrestling|SlamWrestling.net]] |publisher= |access-date= |quote=}}

# ... that '''[[Max Thrasher]]''' was a [[substitute teacher]] during his [[professional wrestling|pro wrestling career]]? Source: {{cite web |url=https://www.ycs.k12.pa.us/jackson/message-from-the-principal/ |title=Meet the Principals |author= |date= |website=Jackson School, K-8 |publisher=[[York City School District]] |archive-url=http://web.archive.org/web/20180819195229/https://www.ycs.k12.pa.us/jackson/message-from-the-principal/ |archive-date=August 19, 2018 |quote=}}
## '''ALT2''' ... that '''[[Max Thrasher]]''' retired from [[professional wrestling|pro wrestling]] to become a [[public school]] [[teacher]] and later a [[school principal]]? Source: {{cite news |last=Lee |first=Rick |date=September 17, 2001 |title=PHIL LIVELSBERGER, BIOLOGY TEACHER AND PRO WRESTLER; Wrapping up one career and taking off in another, he's gone from 'bad, bad guy' to teacher |page=3A |work=[[York Daily Record]] |location= |access-date=}}

[[Special:Contributions/173.162.220.17|173.162.220.17]] ([[User talk:173.162.220.17|talk]]) 17:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
:Both of those articles have maintenance tags, and because I don't know that you don't have five credits already, I'd want to see two QPQs.--[[User:Launchballer|Laun]][[User talk:Launchballer|chba]][[Special:Contribs/Launchballer|ller]] 21:22, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
::I see 4 credits from DYKUpdateBot – although technically, none of those were nominated by the IP, they were proxied. Still, though, a QPQ would be in order. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 21:26, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
:::The wrestling IP has been nominating regularly since 2012 (or earlier, but I happened to read that archive lately). On the one hand, QPQs have obviously been due for a while. On the other hand, dynamic IP makes it hard to track that the reviewer is the same person + suddenly springing this is a little difficult. [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidal]][[User talk:Vaticidalprophet|prophet]] 21:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I understand if the IP would rather not have an account, but would it be possible to ask them to create one if only for the purposes of tracking and organization? [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 02:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:Did you know/Queue/3|Queue 3]] ==

Really lovely to see a new promoter get in the mix, [[User:Fritzmann2002|Fritzmann2002]]! Good job :)
=== [[North Nias Regency]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/North Nias Regency|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Nyanardsan|Piotrus}} same thing as [[Special:Diff/1184200164|here]], but I've bumped instead of pulled :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Theleekycauldron|Theleekycauldron]] Fair point, I support putting this on hold until the citations are properly formatted with cite templates. That also includes expanding stuff like "Badan Pusat Statistik, Jakarta, 2021" - what is this? A book? A brochure? [[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User talk:Piotrus| reply here]] 01:25, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
::There is a helpful redirect at [[Badan Pusat Statistik]]. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 02:12, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

== Thanksgiving/Harvest-Themed DYK Set ==

With the recent success of the Halloween DYK set, I'm wondering, what do you guys think of a Thanksgiving-based DYK set for November 23rd? I know that the holiday is most often American in nature, which understandably leads to worries that it's American-oriented, but if we're looking at the wiki page for [[Thanksgiving]], it is celebrated to different extents in various countries, albeit on different dates. This is very shaky, so I can definitely understand not doing it, but at the same time, it would be an interesting drive towards improving and/or creating articles based on Thanksgiving and/or harvests similar to Halloween, and it's very difficult to incentivize such major changes otherwise. [[User:PrimalMustelid|PrimalMustelid]] ([[User talk:PrimalMustelid|talk]]) 01:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

:I'm sympathetic to the idea, but like you said, the America centrism might open a whole can of worms. I understand most of our readers are from the Anglosphere and thus have probably at least heard of Thanksgiving. However, it would open up questions about why not do similar themed sets for holidays from other countries. After all, we had that St. James Day set a few months ago which itself was a cause of controversy, and I don't think changing the setting from Spain to America would help thing.
:I think having one, maybe two at most Thanksgiving hooks on that date might work as a compromise, but a full set might lead to accusations of us being US-centric. After all, in almost all other cases, when non-Anglophone special sets have been suggested there had been little interest or drive, so Thanksgiving being given special treatment might be seen as unfair. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 02:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
:I suggest that it’s rather close to the target date; that might be a practical problem. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 02:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
::Not to mention, while some of us celebrate the day as Thanksgiving, for others it is the [[National Day of Mourning (United States protest)|National Day of Mourning]] [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 11:52, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
::: One or two hooks for Thanksgiving would be great. Maybe not a set. [[User:Lightburst|Lightburst]] ([[User talk:Lightburst|talk]]) 01:34, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[User:WugBot|WugBot]] failing to move noms to [[WP:DYKNA]] ==

My nom, [[Template:Did you know nominations/DOM Clobbering|DOM Clobbering]] has been approved by [[User:Clyde Franklin|Clyde Franklin]] for a while (~ 12 hrs) but WugBot doesn't seem to moving the nom to the approved nominations page. Could somebody uninvolved with the nom move it over :) (also ping [[User:Wugapodes|Wugapodes]] as the maintainer of the bot.) [[User:Sohom Datta|Sohom]] ([[User talk:Sohom Datta|talk]]) 17:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

:I've seen it take several hours in the past. It might be something to do with the checklist, because that's the only context I see it in. I don't use the checklist, so can't speculate on what could be the cause. [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidal]][[User talk:Vaticidalprophet|prophet]] 17:48, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::The review was written below the "Please do not write below this line" line, which means that the review was not actually in the nomination subpage template, but rather after it. Let's see if the bot moves it, now that I've fixed that (as well as some other template errors). '''[[User:Mandarax|MANdARAX]] • [[User talk:Mandarax#top|XAЯAbИAM]]''' 18:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Yay! that worked :) [[User:Sohom Datta|Sohom]] ([[User talk:Sohom Datta|talk]]) 21:08, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Whoops. [[User:ClydeFranklin|Clyde]] [[User talk:ClydeFranklin|[trout needed]]] 21:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Well, ''that'' didn't actually work, but the following did: When the bot didn't move it at 19:00 UTC, I took one more stab at it. The {{tl|DYK checklist}} had <code>|status = y</code> and I thought the bot may expect the "y" without an intervening comment, so I moved the "y", and ''then'' the bot moved the nom at 21:01 UTC. [[User:ClydeFranklin|Clyde]], for any future reviews, please remember to put your input ''before'' the comment. '''[[User:Mandarax|MANdARAX]] • [[User talk:Mandarax#top|XAЯAbИAM]]''' 21:25, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::Oh I see, though it does feel like something the bot should handle. [[User:Sohom Datta|Sohom]] ([[User talk:Sohom Datta|talk]]) 21:35, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yes, it should, but for now at least we know what to avoid/look for. '''[[User:Mandarax|MANdARAX]] • [[User talk:Mandarax#top|XAЯAbИAM]]''' 21:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

== Older nominations needing DYK reviewers ==

The previous list was archived a couple of hours ago, so I've created a new list of the first 36 nominations that need reviewing in the Older nominations section of the Nominations page, covering everything through October 21. We have a total of 241 nominations, of which 85 have been approved, a gap of 156 nominations that has increased by 12 over the past 9 days. Thanks to everyone who reviews these and any other nominations.

'''More than three months old'''
*August 6: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Herb Dell]]
'''More than two months old'''
*<s>September 2: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Michigan prosecution of fake electors]]</s>
*September 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/25 Water Street]]
*September 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Louise Franklin]] (reviewer needed for ALT2)
*<s>September 6: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Deli 613]]</s>
*<s>September 13: [[Template:Did you know nominations/SPICES (Scouting)]]</s>
'''More than one month old'''
*<s>September 18: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Luca Salsi]]</s>
*September 20: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Wad el-Mahi]] (reviewer needed for ALT2)
*September 22: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Trần Lập]]
*September 23: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Jewish historiography]]
*September 24: [[Template:Did you know nominations/François Glorieux]]
*September 25: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Yaroslav Hunka]]
*September 26: [[Template:Did you know nominations/The Story Teller (painting)]]
*September 28: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Hoang Thi Minh Hong]]
*October 1: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Sealord Group]]
*October 2: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon]]
*October 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Samuel Sparshott]] (two articles)
*October 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Brillante Jr. (wrestler, born 2001)]]
*October 3: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Switch Disco]] (two articles)
*October 4: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Kadu Makrani (film)]] (two articles)
*<s>October 5: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Global Engagement Center]]</s>
*October 6: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Malayalam softcore pornography]]
*October 8: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Ligue de Defense de la Race Nègre]]
*October 8: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Shukusei!! Loli Kami Requiem]]
*October 9: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Walker Interactive Products]]
*October 14: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Perry Hartnett]]
*October 14: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Georgia Twinn]]
'''Other nominations'''
*<s>October 15: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Conversations about Important Things]]</s>
*October 15: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Turbo Dismount]]
*October 16: [[Template:Did you know nominations/John Ernest Adamson]]
*October 16: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Harry Crosbie]]
*<s>October 17: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Dan Blumenthal]]</s>
*October 17: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Vanessa Weenink]] (28 articles)
*<s>October 18: [[Template:Did you know nominations/I don't know her]]</s>
*October 19: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Coriantumr (Last Jaredite King)]] (three articles)
*October 21: [[Template:Did you know nominations/Maryam Eslamdoust]]

Please remember to cross off entries, including the date, as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Please do not remove them entirely. Many thanks! [[User:BlueMoonset|BlueMoonset]] ([[User talk:BlueMoonset|talk]]) 04:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:Did you know/Queue/2|Next queue]] Q2 ==

There is a mismatch between hooks and credits in Q2:
* Jim Rich has hook but is not in Credits.
* LGBT history in Massachusetts is in Credits but hook appeared on 8 November.
* Flathead Lake Biological Station has hook but no Credit.
* Rachel Yakar has Credit but no hook.
[[User:JennyOz|JennyOz]] ([[User talk:JennyOz|talk]]) 05:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, [[User:JennyOz|Jenny]]. I've had a look at this. {{u|PrimalMustelid}}, when you move hooks around, you must move them together with their credits. I'll tidy this up now; I suspect the problem also exists in Q4 (where some of those hooks moved to). '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 08:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::Sorry about that, I wasn't aware of the existence of credits in preps/queues pages while I was manually editing the DYK pages, thanks for letting me know. [[User:PrimalMustelid|PrimalMustelid]] ([[User talk:PrimalMustelid|talk]]) 13:28, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:Q2 has been fixed and Q4 was all correct. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 08:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you for patches {{U|Schwede66|Schwede}}. [[User:JennyOz|JennyOz]] ([[User talk:JennyOz|talk]]) 10:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:Did you know/Queue/4|Queue 4]] ==

=== [[Chancellor Hut]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Chancellor Hut|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Panamitsu|Thriley|PrimalMustelid}} I've '''bumped''' this one, because sources in the article disagree as to whether the hook is true. [https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/destinations/nz/west-coast/87413616/liz-carlson-an-aweinspiring-glacial-experience-on-fox-glacier Carlson 2023] says it's "one of the oldest", while [https://www.heritage.org.nz/list-details/5479/Chancellor%20Hut Heritage New Zealand] says it's the oldest at "high level". [https://www.wildernessmag.co.nz/changes-at-chancellor/ Van Noorden (not Hall) 2013] does say it's the oldest. I'd like a more definitive source than any of these, or a clear consensus, before going with this hook. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:I'd say that the hook is correct as it is. Alpine huts often get shifted (sometimes by only a few metres) due to erosion, change of avalanche passes, etc. There are older huts than this one that are not in an alpine environment. What the hook says is that this is the alpine hut that's never been shifted that's oldest. Carlson is probably not wrong by saying that it's "one of the oldest huts in New Zealand in its original position"; note that she is not making the restriction of talking about alpine huts, though. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 23:48, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

=== [[History of Turku]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/History of Turku|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Peltimikko|TSventon|PrimalMustelid}} The original hook didn't appear in the article (as far as I can tell), so I've '''changed''' it to this:
* ... that '''[[History of Turku|Turku remained the largest city in Finland]]''' after three quarters of it burned down?
Let me know if you'd like something else, thanks :) [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{yo|theleekycauldron}} I think I wrongly assumed that the 16th century was still the Middle Ages, but in any case I prefer your hook to the original. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 23:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::I was more driving at "second most important" {{!=}} "second largest", but yeah, either way. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 00:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:I also can't say that I'm a fan of how much article is sourced to webpages made by the city, but I think I've trimmed it back to a more acceptable level. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:24, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

=== [[Gembong Warsono]] ([[Template:Did you know nominations/Gembong Warsono|nom]]) ===
{{yo|Juxlos|Piotrus}} I've '''bumped''' this one, both because there's already another Indonesian politics hook in the set ({{u|PrimalMustelid}}, trout :P) and because I'm not entirely sure that it's interesting for a politician to criticize a leader of the opposing party. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 23:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:As I said in the nom, the hook is not very interesting, but nobody had an idea for anything better. Sometimes, notable people are just plain boring... shrug. [[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User talk:Piotrus| reply here]] 02:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::In such cases it may be better to simply not nominate them for DYK at all, instead simply focus efforts on more feasible subjects. There's also no shame in failing nominations because there's simply no suitably interesting hook: it's already a DYK criterion that hooks have to be interesting, and that not being met should be a cause for rejection just like any other criterion. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 04:11, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Well, it’s the "German dumpsters" part I thought could be somewhat interesting. [[User:Juxlos|Juxlos]] ([[User talk:Juxlos|talk]]) 02:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::This is a politician who [https://jakarta.tribunnews.com/2023/02/28/profil-gembong-warsono-sudah-jadi-teman-diskusi-petinggi-pdi-meski-masih-jabat-pengurus-kecamatan?page=4 according to the Jakarta Tribune] avoided the [[27 July 1996 incident]] where some of his colleagues died because he went home early. According to the article, this was an event that (understandably) defined his later party political choices. I'm not sure why those details aren't in the article, and if they were I feel they'd fit into something hooky. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 03:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Rereading with Juxlos' comment in mind I've come around to that too. Is "... that Indonesian politician '''[[Gembong Warsono]]''' once criticized the use of German dumpsters?" a bit snappier? [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 07:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

===[[Roberts Point Track]]===
This has just gone live. Immediately prior, {{u|theleekycauldron}} removed this wikilink: <nowiki>[[Hiking in New Zealand|tramping track in New Zealand]]</nowiki>. Having lived in New Zealand for a few decades now and having seen blank faces too many times when I mentioned the word "tramping" to foreigners, I don't think that removing the wikilink is a good idea. There are too many people who do not know that "tramping" is the local lingo for "hiking". '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 00:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{yo|Schwede66}} perhaps we shouldn't be using localisms in the first place? [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 00:52, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::I don't know. "Tramping" is deeply entrenched, e.g. it's a tramping track, a tramping hut, tramping gear. To call it "hiking" would feel wrong to New Zealand ears. Spelling of hooks, and choice of words, follows the language variant used in the target article. I can't really think why that should be any different with [[New Zealand English]]. You wouldn't use "autumn" in a North American hook, would you? When I read "fall" for the season, I always have to think about what that refers to. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 00:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::I can see where you're coming from, but you also have to remember that the Main Page has readership from around the world. Not everyone is going to know every localism out there, and one word that may have a common definition in one Anglophone country can be the same in another. The way I see it, there's two solutions for this: use the word "hiking" (as in the title or the article), or keep the link for the benefit of non-Kiwis. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 03:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I'd keep the link. I didn't see the April 2023 move discussion that resulted in [[Hiking in New Zealand]]; had I seen that, I would have certainly objected. '''[[User:Schwede66|Schwede]][[User talk:Schwede66|66]]''' 03:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::It was me that added the wikilink to the hook for the word ''[[Hiking in New Zealand|tramping]]'' when I did the original hook review. Very much because, although it is the common term in NZ, it will be less well known around the world. I agree with @[[User:Schwede66|Schwede66]]. ''Resonant[[User_talk:ResonantDistortion|Dis''tor''tion]]'' 13:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Britten's birthday, 22 November ==

[[Canticle I: My beloved is mine and I am his]] was written with the idea in mind to feature it on [[Benjamin Britten]]'s birthday, 22 November, which is also the feast day of St. Cecilia, patron saint of music. Sorry, I had other things on my mind, but would like to return to the tradition. It would need a review, and a swap as the prep (2) is already full. Sorry about the inconvenience. -- [[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 20:57, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Where is the QPQ confirmation tool? ==

Looking for link to the tool you use to confirm if it's indeed one of the nominator's first five DYK nominations? [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 05:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

:Probably the most reliable way is to go [https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/Cielquiparle/10 here] and change the URL, to see someone's creations in template space. There's the "QPQ checker" tool in the DYK toolbox at every nompage, but it checks credits, not nominations. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[User talk:Theleekycauldron|talk]] • she/her) 06:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::Where exactly is the "QPQ checker tool in the DYK toolbox at every nompage"? I just know I used to be able to find it easily under "useful tools" but am having trouble locating it now. [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 11:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Ah it is in the DYK toolbox. I see it now. [[User:Cielquiparle|Cielquiparle]] ([[User talk:Cielquiparle|talk]]) 11:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Reopening a DYK discussion ==

Hello!
A little while ago, I nominated the article [[Isaac Saul]] for DYK, but it was rejected because it was embroiled in an AfD debate (and it was ultimately deleted for lack of high-quality sources). Since then, though, I have substantially expanded the number of sources, republished the article, and I believe it's ready. Do you know what I can do to get this nomination reopened? I can't just nominate it manually, because the page "Template: Did you know nominations/Isaac Saul" is already occupied with the discussion from the old nomination.[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 16:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Isaac Saul

2023-11-17T16:42:16Z

Mover of molehills: Created new page, with additional references

{{short description|American journalist}}
'''Isaac M. Saul''' ({{IPAc-en|s|ɔː|l}}) is an American journalist. His work has appeared in publications including [[CNN]], [[The Huffington Post]], [[Time (magazine)|TIME Magazine]],<ref>{{Cite web|title=YOLK Solar Cow: The 100 Best Inventions of 2019|url=https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=Time|language=en-us|archive-date=2020-11-29|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129015117/https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|url-status=live}}</ref> the [[Independent Journal Review]]<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul, Author at IJR|url=https://ijr.org/author/isaacsaul/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=IJR|language=en-US|archive-date=2021-03-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327173834/https://ijr.com/author/isaacsaul/|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Daily Mail|The Daily Mail]].<ref name=":3" /> Outside of his work with newspapers, in 2020 he founded Tangle, an online newsletter which aims to give nonpartisan coverage of current events.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Lexington |first=Transylvania University 300 North Broadway |last2=Fax: 859‐233‐8797 |first2=KY 40508 USA Phone: 859-233‐8300 |title=Creative Intelligence |url=https://www.transy.edu/calendar/creative-intelligence |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Transylvania University {{!}} Calendar of Events |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Early life and career ==
Saul was born on May 14, 1991 in [[Trenton, New Jersey|Trenton]], New Jersey. He first became interested in journalism during his time at [[Pennsbury High School]] in Pennsylvania, and got his first job in news while he was an undergraduate student in nonfiction writing at the [[University of Pittsburgh]]. He later began work at the Huffington Post, which he left in 2014. After this, Saul helped to found a "positive journalism" site called A Plus News.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=http://www.isaacsaul.com/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Isaac Saul|language=en|archive-date=2021-01-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115211129/http://www.isaacsaul.com/|url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=Tangle founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |url-status=live |website=Axios}}</ref>

During the course of his career as a reporter, Saul has covered issues mainly related to [[Politics of the United States|American politics]]<ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|last2=ContributorEditor|last3=Plus|first3=A.|date=2016-09-28|title=I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|access-date=2021-01-13|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=2021-01-21|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232844/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Sport|sports]].<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|last2=ContributorEditor|last3=Plus|first3=A.|date=2014-01-20|title=What Richard Sherman Taught Us About America|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|access-date=2021-01-13|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=2021-02-18|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210218063909/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|url-status=live}}</ref> His reporting on an encounter that he had with a controversial lawyer named Aaron Schlossberg was featured in a live broadcast on CNN in 2018.<ref>{{Citation|title=Reporter describes encounter with NYC lawyer - CNN Video|url=https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|access-date=2021-01-13|archive-date=2021-01-24|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210124010837/https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also worked as an opinion editor for several major magazines and published several editorials stating his opinions on specific political candidates.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref>

Saul's work in reporting drew particular praise during the [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|challenges to the 2020 US presidential election]], when he helped to discredit some of the [[Conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]] and allegations of [[Electoral fraud|voter fraud]] around the election. As part of this effort, he published a running thread of [[Twitter|tweets]] in which he challenged his readers to find an instance of alleged voter fraud that he couldn't disprove, a project which received external media coverage.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=2020-11-13 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref> Saul publicly condemned a number of the fraud claims that he had to respond to, saying that "new lies just kept pouring in," and expressed concern that some of the conspiracy theories were wrongly accusing [[poll workers]] of committing election fraud, which could put the lives of these workers in danger.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Fisher |first=Anthony L. |title=Voter-fraud debunking journalist Isaac Saul talks about his viral election thread and why the conspiracy theories put poll workers in danger |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/voter-fraud-debunked-isaac-saul-viral-election-thread-conspiracy-theories-2020-11 |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Business Insider |language=en-US}}</ref> In the end, he had challenged over 32 different conspiracy theories within the first week after the election results were announced.<ref>{{Cite web|date=2020-11-15|title=32 Republican 'Election Fraud' Claims, Debunked by Isaac Saul|url=https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|access-date=2021-03-27|website=TrumpFile.org|language=en-US|archive-date=2020-12-02|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201202192105/https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|url-status=live}}</ref>

Also in conjunction with the 2020 election, Saul drew coverage for betting $15,000 with a friend that [[Joe Biden]] would be inaugurated as President, a bet which he won.<ref>{{Cite web|title=STF Special: Betting $15,000 In Gold On The Future Of The Republic|url=https://www.spreaker.com/user/ultiworld/stf-interview-with-ike-saul|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Spreaker|language=en}}</ref>

=== Tangle ===
In July of 2020 Saul began a politics newsletter called "the Shuffle" which was later renamed to "Tangle."<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=Two years (!!!) of Tangle...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/two-years-of-tangle|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.readtangle.com}}</ref> The newsletter continued to expand in readership over the coming months, eventually becoming read in a many as thirty countries.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/isaac-saul/|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Forbes|language=en}}</ref> On April 19, 2021, Saul announced that he had quit his job as a newspaper editor to work on Tangle full-time.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=So, I quit my job today...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/quit-my-job-today|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.readtangle.com}}</ref> Tangle has received substantial media coverage focused on the success of its subscriber-based model<ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref> and its efficacy in bridging political divisions.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=2022-05-30 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=2023-11-17}}</ref> In 2023, the first live Tangle event, on the state of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], was hosted in Philadelphia.<ref name=":4" />

The newsletter was reviewed by [[Ad Fontes Media]] in 2021, and was evaluated as having a slight (1.79 on a scale of 42) level of conservative bias and a high degree of reliability.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Emheldebrandt|date=2021-04-28|title=Tangle Bias and Reliability|url=https://www.adfontesmedia.com/tangle-bias-and-reliability/|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Ad Fontes Media|language=en-US}}</ref>

As of October 2023, Tangle is believed to have more than 65,000 subscribers, generating more than $600,000 of revenue per year.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Recognition ==
In 2016, [[Yahoo! News]] named Saul as one of the 16 people who had had the greatest influence on the [[2016 United States elections|2016 US election.]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=16 people who shaped the 2016 election: Isaac Saul|url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|access-date=2021-01-13|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US|archive-date=2020-09-19|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919085147/https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|url-status=live}}</ref> He also was named the winner of the Pittsburgh Neighborhoods in Transition writing contest for a story that he wrote on William Vassar.<ref name=":0" /> He also made the [[Forbes]] "Next 1000" list of "upstart entrepreneurs redefining the American dream."<ref>{{Cite web|title=Forbes Next 1000 2021|url=https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|access-date=2021-03-27|website=Forbes|archive-date=2021-03-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327062454/https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|url-status=live}}</ref>
== Personal life ==
Outside of his work, Saul is a competitive [[Ultimate (sport)|Ultimate]] player. He won several state championships during his time playing for the team at Pennsbury High School, and later won two national championships with his team at the University of Pittsburgh and a national championship with Pride of New York (PoNY), a club team in New York City.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=News|first1=Simon Pollock in|last2=comments|first2=Recap with 0|date=2018-10-23|title=PoNY Dismantles Revolver To Win National Title|url=https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-02-09|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210209210526/https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|url-status=live}}</ref> Later, he played for the [[New York City]] team Rumble.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Charlie Eisenhood in News with 6|date=2014-06-09|title=NY Rumble's Isaac Saul To Join AUDL's Empire After MLU Season|url=https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-01-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115094040/https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|url-status=live}}</ref>

He has also traveled around the world for his work, and spent five months studying in a [[yeshiva]] while living in [[Jerusalem]] after college.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115213105/https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|archive-date=2021-01-15|access-date=2021-01-13|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref>
== References ==

{{reflist}}

== External Links ==

* [http://isaacsaul.com Saul's personal website]
* [http://readtangle.com Tangle official site]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Saul, Isaac}}
[[:Category:1991 births]]
[[:Category:Living people]]
[[:Category:American journalists]]

[[:Category:University of Pittsburgh alumni]]
[[:Category:People from Trenton, New Jersey]]
[[:Category:Voter suppression]]

User:Mover of molehills/sandbox

2023-11-17T16:40:58Z

Mover of molehills:

{{User sandbox}}
{{short description|American journalist}}
'''Isaac M. Saul''' ({{IPAc-en|s|ɔː|l}}) is an American journalist. His work has appeared in publications including [[CNN]], [[The Huffington Post]], [[Time (magazine)|TIME Magazine]],<ref>{{Cite web|title=YOLK Solar Cow: The 100 Best Inventions of 2019|url=https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=Time|language=en-us|archive-date=2020-11-29|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129015117/https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|url-status=live}}</ref> the [[Independent Journal Review]]<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul, Author at IJR|url=https://ijr.org/author/isaacsaul/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=IJR|language=en-US|archive-date=2021-03-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327173834/https://ijr.com/author/isaacsaul/|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Daily Mail|The Daily Mail]].<ref name=":3" /> Outside of his work with newspapers, in 2020 he founded Tangle, an online newsletter which aims to give nonpartisan coverage of current events.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Lexington |first=Transylvania University 300 North Broadway |last2=Fax: 859‐233‐8797 |first2=KY 40508 USA Phone: 859-233‐8300 |title=Creative Intelligence |url=https://www.transy.edu/calendar/creative-intelligence |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Transylvania University {{!}} Calendar of Events |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Early life and career ==
Saul was born on May 14, 1991 in [[Trenton, New Jersey|Trenton]], New Jersey. He first became interested in journalism during his time at [[Pennsbury High School]] in Pennsylvania, and got his first job in news while he was an undergraduate student in nonfiction writing at the [[University of Pittsburgh]]. He later began work at the Huffington Post, which he left in 2014. After this, Saul helped to found a "positive journalism" site called A Plus News.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=http://www.isaacsaul.com/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Isaac Saul|language=en|archive-date=2021-01-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115211129/http://www.isaacsaul.com/|url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=Tangle founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |url-status=live |website=Axios}}</ref>

During the course of his career as a reporter, Saul has covered issues mainly related to [[Politics of the United States|American politics]]<ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|last2=ContributorEditor|last3=Plus|first3=A.|date=2016-09-28|title=I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|access-date=2021-01-13|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=2021-01-21|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232844/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Sport|sports]].<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|last2=ContributorEditor|last3=Plus|first3=A.|date=2014-01-20|title=What Richard Sherman Taught Us About America|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|access-date=2021-01-13|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=2021-02-18|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210218063909/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|url-status=live}}</ref> His reporting on an encounter that he had with a controversial lawyer named Aaron Schlossberg was featured in a live broadcast on CNN in 2018.<ref>{{Citation|title=Reporter describes encounter with NYC lawyer - CNN Video|url=https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|access-date=2021-01-13|archive-date=2021-01-24|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210124010837/https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also worked as an opinion editor for several major magazines and published several editorials stating his opinions on specific political candidates.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref>

Saul's work in reporting drew particular praise during the [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|challenges to the 2020 US presidential election]], when he helped to discredit some of the [[Conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]] and allegations of [[Electoral fraud|voter fraud]] around the election. As part of this effort, he published a running thread of [[Twitter|tweets]] in which he challenged his readers to find an instance of alleged voter fraud that he couldn't disprove, a project which received external media coverage.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=2020-11-13 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref> Saul publicly condemned a number of the fraud claims that he had to respond to, saying that "new lies just kept pouring in," and expressed concern that some of the conspiracy theories were wrongly accusing [[poll workers]] of committing election fraud, which could put the lives of these workers in danger.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Fisher |first=Anthony L. |title=Voter-fraud debunking journalist Isaac Saul talks about his viral election thread and why the conspiracy theories put poll workers in danger |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/voter-fraud-debunked-isaac-saul-viral-election-thread-conspiracy-theories-2020-11 |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Business Insider |language=en-US}}</ref> In the end, he had challenged over 32 different conspiracy theories within the first week after the election results were announced.<ref>{{Cite web|date=2020-11-15|title=32 Republican 'Election Fraud' Claims, Debunked by Isaac Saul|url=https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|access-date=2021-03-27|website=TrumpFile.org|language=en-US|archive-date=2020-12-02|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201202192105/https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|url-status=live}}</ref>

Also in conjunction with the 2020 election, Saul drew coverage for betting $15,000 with a friend that [[Joe Biden]] would be inaugurated as President, a bet which he won.<ref>{{Cite web|title=STF Special: Betting $15,000 In Gold On The Future Of The Republic|url=https://www.spreaker.com/user/ultiworld/stf-interview-with-ike-saul|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Spreaker|language=en}}</ref>

=== Tangle ===
In July of 2020 Saul began a politics newsletter called "the Shuffle" which was later renamed to "Tangle."<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=Two years (!!!) of Tangle...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/two-years-of-tangle|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.readtangle.com}}</ref> The newsletter continued to expand in readership over the coming months, eventually becoming read in a many as thirty countries.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/isaac-saul/|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Forbes|language=en}}</ref> On April 19, 2021, Saul announced that he had quit his job as a newspaper editor to work on Tangle full-time.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=So, I quit my job today...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/quit-my-job-today|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.readtangle.com}}</ref> Tangle has received substantial media coverage focused on the success of its subscriber-based model<ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref> and its efficacy in bridging political divisions.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=2022-05-30 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=2023-11-17}}</ref> In 2023, the first live Tangle event, on the state of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], was hosted in Philadelphia.<ref name=":4" />

The newsletter was reviewed by [[Ad Fontes Media]] in 2021, and was evaluated as having a slight (1.79 on a scale of 42) level of conservative bias and a high degree of reliability.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Emheldebrandt|date=2021-04-28|title=Tangle Bias and Reliability|url=https://www.adfontesmedia.com/tangle-bias-and-reliability/|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Ad Fontes Media|language=en-US}}</ref>

As of October 2023, Tangle is believed to have more than 65,000 subscribers, generating more than $600,000 of revenue per year.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Recognition ==
In 2016, [[Yahoo! News]] named Saul as one of the 16 people who had had the greatest influence on the [[2016 United States elections|2016 US election.]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=16 people who shaped the 2016 election: Isaac Saul|url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|access-date=2021-01-13|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US|archive-date=2020-09-19|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919085147/https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|url-status=live}}</ref> He also was named the winner of the Pittsburgh Neighborhoods in Transition writing contest for a story that he wrote on William Vassar.<ref name=":0" /> He also made the [[Forbes]] "Next 1000" list of "upstart entrepreneurs redefining the American dream."<ref>{{Cite web|title=Forbes Next 1000 2021|url=https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|access-date=2021-03-27|website=Forbes|archive-date=2021-03-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327062454/https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|url-status=live}}</ref>
== Personal life ==
Outside of his work, Saul is a competitive [[Ultimate (sport)|Ultimate]] player. He won several state championships during his time playing for the team at Pennsbury High School, and later won two national championships with his team at the University of Pittsburgh and a national championship with Pride of New York (PoNY), a club team in New York City.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=News|first1=Simon Pollock in|last2=comments|first2=Recap with 0|date=2018-10-23|title=PoNY Dismantles Revolver To Win National Title|url=https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-02-09|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210209210526/https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|url-status=live}}</ref> Later, he played for the [[New York City]] team Rumble.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Charlie Eisenhood in News with 6|date=2014-06-09|title=NY Rumble's Isaac Saul To Join AUDL's Empire After MLU Season|url=https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-01-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115094040/https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|url-status=live}}</ref>

He has also traveled around the world for his work, and spent five months studying in a [[yeshiva]] while living in [[Jerusalem]] after college.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115213105/https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|archive-date=2021-01-15|access-date=2021-01-13|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref>
== References ==

{{reflist}}

== External Links ==

* [http://isaacsaul.com Saul's personal website]
* [http://readtangle.com Tangle official site]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Saul, Isaac}}
[[:Category:1991 births]]
[[:Category:Living people]]
[[:Category:American journalists]]

[[:Category:University of Pittsburgh alumni]]
[[:Category:People from Trenton, New Jersey]]
[[:Category:Voter suppression]]

User:Mover of molehills/sandbox

2023-11-17T16:39:39Z

Mover of molehills: /* Early life and career */ Finalized

{{User sandbox}}
{{short description|American journalist}}
'''Isaac M. Saul''' ({{IPAc-en|s|ɔː|l}}) is an American journalist. His work has appeared in publications including [[CNN]], [[The Huffington Post]], [[Time (magazine)|TIME Magazine]],<ref>{{Cite web|title=YOLK Solar Cow: The 100 Best Inventions of 2019|url=https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=Time|language=en-us|archive-date=2020-11-29|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201129015117/https://time.com/collection/best-inventions-2019/5733126/yolk-solar-cow/|url-status=live}}</ref> the [[Independent Journal Review]]<ref name=":3">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul, Author at IJR|url=https://ijr.org/author/isaacsaul/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=IJR|language=en-US|archive-date=2021-03-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327173834/https://ijr.com/author/isaacsaul/|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Daily Mail|The Daily Mail]].<ref name=":3" /> Outside of his work with newspapers, in 2020 he founded Tangle, an online newsletter which aims to give nonpartisan coverage of current events.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Lexington |first=Transylvania University 300 North Broadway |last2=Fax: 859‐233‐8797 |first2=KY 40508 USA Phone: 859-233‐8300 |title=Creative Intelligence |url=https://www.transy.edu/calendar/creative-intelligence |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Transylvania University {{!}} Calendar of Events |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Early life and career ==
Saul was born on May 14, 1991 in [[Trenton, New Jersey|Trenton]], New Jersey. He first became interested in journalism during his time at [[Pennsbury High School]] in Pennsylvania, and got his first job in news while he was an undergraduate student in nonfiction writing at the [[University of Pittsburgh]]. He later began work at the Huffington Post, which he left in 2014. After this, Saul helped to found a "positive journalism" site called A Plus News.<ref name=":0">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=http://www.isaacsaul.com/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Isaac Saul|language=en|archive-date=2021-01-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115211129/http://www.isaacsaul.com/|url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=":4">{{Cite web |last=Avilucea |first=Isaac |date=August 2, 2023 |title=Tangle founder hosts high court chat in Philly |url=https://www.axios.com/local/philadelphia/2023/08/02/tangle-founder-hosts-high-court-chat-in-philly |url-status=live |website=Axios}}</ref>

During the course of his career as a reporter, Saul has covered issues mainly related to [[Politics of the United States|American politics]]<ref name=":2">{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|last2=ContributorEditor|last3=Plus|first3=A.|date=2016-09-28|title=I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|access-date=2021-01-13|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=2021-01-21|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210121232844/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/i-wrote-that-i-despised-hillary-clinton-i-take-it-back_b_12220124|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[Sport|sports]].<ref>{{Cite web|last1=Saul|first1=Isaac|last2=ContributorEditor|last3=Plus|first3=A.|date=2014-01-20|title=What Richard Sherman Taught Us About America|url=https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|access-date=2021-01-13|website=HuffPost|language=en|archive-date=2021-02-18|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210218063909/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-richard-sherman-taught-us_b_4631980|url-status=live}}</ref> His reporting on an encounter that he had with a controversial lawyer named Aaron Schlossberg was featured in a live broadcast on CNN in 2018.<ref>{{Citation|title=Reporter describes encounter with NYC lawyer - CNN Video|url=https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|access-date=2021-01-13|archive-date=2021-01-24|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210124010837/https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/05/18/new-york-attorney-racist-rant-history-jewish-protest-saul-sot-ctn.cnn|url-status=live}}</ref> He has also worked as an opinion editor for several major magazines and published several editorials stating his opinions on specific political candidates.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref>

Saul's work in reporting drew particular praise during the [[Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election|challenges to the 2020 US presidential election]], when he helped to discredit some of the [[Conspiracy theory|conspiracy theories]] and allegations of [[Electoral fraud|voter fraud]] around the election. As part of this effort, he published a running thread of [[Twitter|tweets]] in which he challenged his readers to find an instance of alleged voter fraud that he couldn't disprove, a project which received external media coverage.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Conley |first=Julia |date=2020-11-13 |title=Trump campaign presents 238 pages of ridiculous GOP poll watcher affidavits |url=https://www.salon.com/2020/11/13/trump-campaign-presents-238-pages-of-ridiculous-gop-poll-watcher-affidavits_partner/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Salon |language=en}}</ref> Saul publicly condemned a number of the fraud claims that he had to respond to, saying that "new lies just kept pouring in," and expressed concern that some of the conspiracy theories were wrongly accusing [[poll workers]] of committing election fraud, which could put the lives of these workers in danger.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Fisher |first=Anthony L. |title=Voter-fraud debunking journalist Isaac Saul talks about his viral election thread and why the conspiracy theories put poll workers in danger |url=https://www.businessinsider.com/voter-fraud-debunked-isaac-saul-viral-election-thread-conspiracy-theories-2020-11 |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=Business Insider |language=en-US}}</ref> In the end, he had challenged over 32 different conspiracy theories within the first week after the election results were announced.<ref>{{Cite web|date=2020-11-15|title=32 Republican 'Election Fraud' Claims, Debunked by Isaac Saul|url=https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|access-date=2021-03-27|website=TrumpFile.org|language=en-US|archive-date=2020-12-02|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201202192105/https://trumpfile.org/election-fraud-claims-debunked-by-isaac-saul/|url-status=live}}</ref>

Also in conjunction with the 2020 election, Saul drew coverage for betting $15,000 with a friend that [[Joe Biden]] would be inaugurated as President, a bet which he won.<ref>{{Cite web|title=STF Special: Betting $15,000 In Gold On The Future Of The Republic|url=https://www.spreaker.com/user/ultiworld/stf-interview-with-ike-saul|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Spreaker|language=en}}</ref>

=== Tangle ===
In July of 2020 Saul began a politics newsletter called "the Shuffle" which was later renamed to "Tangle."<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=Two years (!!!) of Tangle...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/two-years-of-tangle|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.readtangle.com}}</ref> The newsletter continued to expand in readership over the coming months, eventually becoming read in a many as thirty countries.<ref>{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul|url=https://www.forbes.com/profile/isaac-saul/|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Forbes|language=en}}</ref> On April 19, 2021, Saul announced that he had quit his job as a newspaper editor to work on Tangle full-time.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Saul|first=Isaac|title=So, I quit my job today...|url=https://www.readtangle.com/p/quit-my-job-today|access-date=2021-08-14|website=www.readtangle.com}}</ref> Tangle has received substantial media coverage focused on the success of its subscriber-based model<ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref> and its efficacy in bridging political divisions.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Waldmeir |first=Patti |date=2022-05-30 |title=Two Americans talk across the political divide |work=Financial Times |url=https://www.ft.com/content/dae86868-7bd2-4280-8e57-287717f0f9dc |access-date=2023-11-17}}</ref> In 2023, the first live Tangle event, on the state of the [[Supreme Court of the United States|Supreme Court]], was hosted in Philadelphia.<ref name=":4" />

The newsletter was reviewed by [[Ad Fontes Media]] in 2021, and was evaluated as having a slight (1.79 on a scale of 42) level of conservative bias and a high degree of reliability.<ref>{{Cite web|last=Emheldebrandt|date=2021-04-28|title=Tangle Bias and Reliability|url=https://www.adfontesmedia.com/tangle-bias-and-reliability/|access-date=2021-08-14|website=Ad Fontes Media|language=en-US}}</ref>

As of October 2023, Tangle is believed to have more than 65,000 subscribers, generating more than $600,000 of revenue per year.<ref>{{Cite web |last=Academy |first=NBCU |date=2023-10-11 |title=How Substack Journalists Are Growing Their Audiences |url=https://nbcuacademy.com/substack-newsletter-journalism/ |access-date=2023-11-17 |website=NBCU Academy |language=en-US}}</ref>

== Recognition ==
In 2016, [[Yahoo! News]] named Saul as one of the 16 people who had had the greatest influence on the [[2016 United States elections|2016 US election.]]<ref>{{Cite web|title=16 people who shaped the 2016 election: Isaac Saul|url=https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|access-date=2021-01-13|website=www.yahoo.com|language=en-US|archive-date=2020-09-19|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200919085147/https://www.yahoo.com/news/16-people-who-shaped-the-2016-election-isaac-saul-175336283.html|url-status=live}}</ref> He also was named the winner of the Pittsburgh Neighborhoods in Transition writing contest for a story that he wrote on William Vassar.<ref name=":0" /> He also made the [[Forbes]] "Next 1000" list of "upstart entrepreneurs redefining the American dream."<ref>{{Cite web|title=Forbes Next 1000 2021|url=https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|access-date=2021-03-27|website=Forbes|archive-date=2021-03-27|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210327062454/https://www.forbes.com/next1000/|url-status=live}}</ref>
== Personal life ==
Outside of his work, Saul is a competitive [[Ultimate (sport)|Ultimate]] player. He won several state championships during his time playing for the team at Pennsbury High School, and later won two national championships with his team at the University of Pittsburgh and a national championship with Pride of New York (PoNY), a club team in New York City.<ref>{{Cite web|last1=News|first1=Simon Pollock in|last2=comments|first2=Recap with 0|date=2018-10-23|title=PoNY Dismantles Revolver To Win National Title|url=https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|access-date=2021-01-14|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-02-09|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210209210526/https://ultiworld.com/2018/10/23/pony-dismantles-revolver-win-national-title/|url-status=live}}</ref> Later, he played for the [[New York City]] team Rumble.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Charlie Eisenhood in News with 6|date=2014-06-09|title=NY Rumble's Isaac Saul To Join AUDL's Empire After MLU Season|url=https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-01-15|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115094040/https://ultiworld.com/2014/06/09/ny-rumbles-isaac-saul-join-audls-empire-mlu-season/|url-status=live}}</ref> His brother, Noah Saul, plays Ultimate as well and has also won many competitions in the sport.<ref>{{Cite web|last=comments|first=Isaac Saul in Opinion with 25|date=2016-03-07|title=My Brother, The Most Underrated Player in Ultimate|url=https://ultiworld.com/2016/03/07/brother-underrated-player-ultimate/|access-date=2021-01-13|website=Ultiworld|archive-date=2021-01-16|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210116211433/https://ultiworld.com/2016/03/07/brother-underrated-player-ultimate/|url-status=live}}</ref>

He has also traveled around the world for his work, and spent five months studying in a [[yeshiva]] while living in [[Jerusalem]] after college.<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|title=Isaac Saul {{!}} HuffPost|url=https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210115213105/https://www.huffpost.com/author/isaac-saul|archive-date=2021-01-15|access-date=2021-01-13|website=www.huffpost.com|language=en}}</ref>
== References ==

{{reflist}}

== External Links ==

* [http://isaacsaul.com Saul's personal website]
* [http://readtangle.com Tangle official site]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Saul, Isaac}}
[[:Category:1991 births]]
[[:Category:Living people]]
[[:Category:American journalists]]

[[:Category:University of Pittsburgh alumni]]
[[:Category:People from Trenton, New Jersey]]
[[:Category:Voter suppression]]

Wikipedia:Teahouse

2023-11-17T16:04:40Z

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== can't publish my friend's long journey to success ==

i've written about my friend's story how he grew and challenges that faced him to become to he is right now but when i published first it gort deleted and they told me cuz of short of data and he's not known but second i published it with his social and bussines platforms it wasn't deleted but it's not considiret as article but userpage [[User:Da drago stoone|Da drago stoone]] ([[User talk:Da drago stoone|talk]]) 19:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:Da drago stoone|Da drago stoone]]. What you are describing is [[Wikipedia:Promotion|promotion]], and strictly prohibited on Wikipedia. If your friend get's documented and written about in multiple secondary sources like magazine articles, books, TV shows, newspapers - then someone will eventually write an article about him. But Wikipedia is not to be used to write biographies of random people who do not meet our special definition of 'notable'. '''[[User:Qcne|Qcne]]''' [[User talk:Qcne|(talk)]] 19:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::Weird that you have your friend's name, Drago. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 19:48, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:::i didn't get ur point [[User:Da drago stoone|Da drago stoone]] ([[User talk:Da drago stoone|talk]]) 19:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::::The point is that if you (posting here) and 'your friend' really do have the same name, then most people might conclude that 'your friend' is really you, and you are trying to smuggle autobiography into Wikipedia which, though not outright forbidden, is both heavily frowned upon and extremely difficult to do while remaining in compliance with Wikipedia's requirements.
::::If on the other hand you are not 'your friend', then by using your friend's name as your User Account name you are effectively impersonating them – impersonating a real person with your User name is not allowed on Wikipedia. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.2.5.208|94.2.5.208]] ([[User talk:94.2.5.208|talk]]) 03:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::Separate from content, your User page is wrong place to create a draft. The first entry on your Talk page directs you to [[WP:YFA]] for the right place. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 08:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== Moving from IP editing to registered user, and sockpuppet policy ==

Hello all. I could not find a straight answer to this question so I will ask here: Would it violate Wikipedia's sockpuppet policy if I made a named account after editing from this IP? I find that my edits are often treated as "second-class" because I choose to edit through an IP instead of a registered account. I am however worried that because I am involved in a content dispute that my making a registered account would trigger accusations of sockpuppetry. Thanks in advance for any responses. [[Special:Contributions/47.219.237.179|47.219.237.179]] ([[User talk:47.219.237.179|talk]]) 21:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:It would NOT be sockpuppetry. Many of us started by using an IP and later moved to a named account. I guess using both an IP and a named account simultaneously would be, but I presume you'd give up using the IP. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 21:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:No, you would not be considered a sock. It is possibel that an editor will accuse you of being a sock due to a high knowledge of Wikipedia for a new account. If so, you can always explain you were formerly an IP and, if you wish, link to your IP. [[User:Novo Tape| Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)]][[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]] 21:23, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:Speaking as a checkuser and former SPI clerk, it is generally acceptable for an unregistered editor to create an account and continue participating in the same topics, '''as long as''' you are not doing so in order to deceive editors into thinking you're two different people or trying to create the impression of false consensus, and especially not if you are evading a sanction. In your case it would be wise to publicly declare that you formerly edited as the IP but have created an account. If you didn't, the connection would be rather obvious anyway, so you might as well get ahead of it. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] ([[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]) 21:30, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::I see, thank you (and to others who responded as well). I am wary of named users and prefer the semi-anonymity that unregistered editing affords. But if I did make an account, a talk page notice of former IP editing would be sufficient to avoid running afoul of sockpuppet rules? [[Special:Contributions/47.219.237.179|47.219.237.179]] ([[User talk:47.219.237.179|talk]]) 21:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Hello, IP user. You would not be the first to choose to continue editing from an IP: there are some well-established users who do so. But in a sense, an account is ''more'' anonymous, in that anybody can look up who assigned an IP and where in the world it is. And account names do not have to be your real name: many accounts (perhaps most) are obvious pseudonyms. But it's your choice. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 22:06, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I understand how IP editing and anonymity work on this site. I don't care if people see my IP address and geolocate me. I am more an advocate of anonymous editing and anonymous forum-style discussion. In my view, tying edits to fixed usernames is an invitation to involve ego in decision-making, and leads to to certain users claiming "ownership" over articles if they have a long history of editing it. If I made a registered account, it would be solely to take advantage of the technical benefits afforded to registered users, and so my edits are not dismissed out-of-hand as IP edits, as they sometimes are. [[Special:Contributions/47.219.237.179|47.219.237.179]] ([[User talk:47.219.237.179|talk]]) 22:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::FWIW, I have been editing on Wikipedia for more than 20 years, and have never created an account, in part because I think edits should be evaluated purely on their own merits, not in the light of whether their editor has a 'reputation.' (I have other personal reasons, of no relevance to anyone else.) I do use a 'pseudo-signature', purely to maintain continuity in conversations should my IP, once upon a time static but for many years dynamic (blame my ISP) change in mid-dialogue.
:::::In those 20+ years I have hardly ever fallen foul of 'anti-IP prejudice', and on the rare occasions when I have, other editors have pushed back against it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.2.5.208|94.2.5.208]] ([[User talk:94.2.5.208|talk]]) 03:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::I'm not going to claim gross prejudice, but in a recent content dispute, users frequently cited the term "IP edits" in a seemingly pejorative manner, implying that the edits by myself and others under IPs are somehow less valid by that fact alone, or that edits are suspect purely by virtue of being from an unregistered user. Then said users got the article protected.
::::::And how do you deal with autoconfirmed protection? Do you just accept that you're unable to participate in the many thousands of protected articles, many of which are of high importance? Yes I understand that you can request edits, but that seems like an extremely tedious route, and is dependent upon the whims of other editors. [[Special:Contributions/47.219.237.179|47.219.237.179]] ([[User talk:47.219.237.179|talk]]) 04:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I guess it is true that if I wanted to push wikipedia explicitly in a pro-Nazi direction then I would think edit requests were a real bummer. [[Special:Contributions/100.36.106.199|100.36.106.199]] ([[User talk:100.36.106.199|talk]]) 02:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I don't know why you're insinuating I'm doing that, or making personal attacks. But you should probably stop. [[Special:Contributions/47.219.237.179|47.219.237.179]] ([[User talk:47.219.237.179|talk]]) 06:26, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== dark mode ==

is there a dark mode for viewing and editing wikipedia? i have my normal screen settings on dark mode, only wikipedia is bright white. [[User:Iljhgtn|Iljhgtn]] ([[User talk:Iljhgtn|talk]]) 00:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Iljhgtn|iljhgtn]]: [[special:preferences]] -> gadgets -> dark mode toggle ltb[[user:ltbdl/d|d]]<nowiki>l</nowiki> ([[user talk:ltbdl|talk]]) 01:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Iljhgtn|Iljhgtn]] Preferences > Appearance > Skin > Vector (2022) = Permanent Dark Mode [[User:Danstarr69|Danstarr69]] ([[User talk:Danstarr69|talk]]) 03:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::{{ping|Danstarr69}} Vector 2022 is not displayed in dark mode by default, Itbdl has provided the correct method. Additional dark themes are available at [[WP:DARK]]. [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 07:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== Has Table of Contents moved? ==

I remember seeing the Table of Contents within the article (not as a side bar). Now I only see it when I click on the 3 horizontal bars with 3 dots. Is there a way to see the ToC within the article? Also, when I click the ToC icon, the 1st line is Contents. Sometimes next to it is a link that says "move to sidebar". At least that link was there a few minutes ago. Now it's not there. How an I make it come back? [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 06:54, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:Hi [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] – you might be thinking of the old default skin on Wikipedia, Vector 2010, which was replaced as the default skin back in January by Vector 2022. If you want to go back to it, you can do so in [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering|your preferences]]. [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 07:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::That was it! Thanks. I like 2010 much better. Now I can see the ToC in the article. It also removes the annoying ToC icon that would always cover some of the text I was trying to read. Always had to scroll a couple of line to see it. I appreciate your help. [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 07:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::Also, if I ever decide to use skin 2022, how do I get the ToC to be in the sidebar? I saw the link to do this in some articles, but now it's not there. [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 07:24, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::When you click on the [[file:OOjs UI icon listBullet-ltr.svg|link=]] to display the ToC, at the top of the dropdown menu is "Move to sidebar", which will do what you want it to do. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 07:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::The top of the dropdown has "Contents". Next to that used to be the link to "move to sidebar" but that link no longer appears. How do I get the link back? [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 07:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::If "move to sidebar" doesn't appear, that is generally because the screen's layout isn't wide enough to show you the toolbar in the pinned state. —[[User:TheDJ|TheDJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 10:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::That really helps. Turns out if the window is more than 1/2" from the edge, it's not wide enough. But with the wider window, now I can see it. Thanks. [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 18:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== Possible canvassing over a move discussion at Saio ==

I believe a userr has been [[Wikipedia:Canvassing|canvassing]] over the move discussion at [[Talk:Saiō]]. I do not know how to deal with it or whether they are exactly doing it, but it is really stressing me out and I want someone else to deal with it so I can take a wikibreak. What should I do? [[User:Immanuelle|'''Immanuel'''le]] ❤️💚💙 [[User_talk:Immanuelle|(talk to the cutest Wikipedian)]] 07:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:Nothing. Ka-ru, per {{gender|Ka-u|possessive}} user talk, retired two days ago (You said at [[Talk:Saiō#Requested move 13 November 2023]]: {{tq|I believe we are experiencing [[Wikipedia:Canvassing|canvassing]] by Ka-ru, with a lot of messages being posted almost everywhere advocating against this move}}). Makes the whole thing moot.
:I'd also like to note for the record that one should usually link diffs, as I see no such messages in Ka-ru's contribs when I filter out edits to the mainspace. But not here: the Teahouse not the place to resolve disputes or report behavioral problems. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 14:39, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] where should I report this? [[User:Immanuelle|'''Immanuel'''le]] ❤️💚💙 [[User_talk:Immanuelle|(talk to the cutest Wikipedian)]] 18:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::First, it is ideal to know "whether they are exactly doing it" before declaring that there is a problem. Second, [[Wikipedia:Canvassing]] is fairly clear on [[Wikipedia:Canvassing#How to respond to canvassing]]. All roads lead back to ANI, where a) you already have a monster thread b) where you reported someone else for some non-notable supposed infraction a few days, before backing off from that. WP does not need additional manufactured drama. Please give it a rest and maybe go on that wikibreak you've been talking about. We'll hold the fort whilst you're away, promise. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 18:41, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Immanuelle}} I had a look at [[Talk:Saiō]], and I can't anything that is even remotely indicative of canvassing. I suggest you take heed of {{u|Tagishsimon}}'s advice. '''''[[User:Polyamorph|Polyamorph]]''''' ([[User talk:Polyamorph#top|talk]]) 19:30, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== Guidance on Company page edits (Seeking Input from Experienced Editors) ==

Hello wiki community, I am trying to create a company page and it was declined. I would like to understand the feedback in detail. Which of the citations are reliable and which are not reliable. I tried adding 11 citations which found to be reliable. What are the main issues you see in the content? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Mercans_(company). Is there anyone who would like to contribute to the page? How do I invite editors to review the content and contribute? I appreciate your help in advance. [[User:Vbhavanisankar|Vbhavanisankar]] ([[User talk:Vbhavanisankar|talk]]) 09:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:Hello, {{u|Vbhavanisankar}}. Unreferenced promotional fluff like {{tpq|These platforms empower businesses with technology-driven HR and payroll solutions, enhancing efficiency and productivity}} is a violation of the core content policy, the [[WP:NPOV|Neutral point of view]]. When I read a sentence like that, I learn nothing about what sets this company apart from others, because all such companies use vapid language like that to describe themselves. Every trace of promotional corporate-speak must be removed from your draft. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 09:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you @[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]]. I will edit the draft. Feel free to provide additional feedback. Is it ok to include company website link while explaining what is unique about the company. or will it be flagged as it is not a 3rd party independent citation. [[User:Vbhavanisankar|Vbhavanisankar]] ([[User talk:Vbhavanisankar|talk]]) 09:50, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Vbhavanisankar|Vbhavanisankar]]: {{welcometea}} While an external link to the company is usually provided in an §External links section, it cannot be cited to establish [[Wikipedia:Notability|wikinotability]]. Focus on finding independent, reliable sources instead. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 14:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Thank you @[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu]] [[User:Vbhavanisankar|Vbhavanisankar]] ([[User talk:Vbhavanisankar|talk]]) 02:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::Hello wiki community, can anyone suggest additional citations that can be included in the page? [[Draft:Mercans (company)]] Is there a better way to look for citations other than Google? I appreciate your help in advance. [[User:Vbhavanisankar|Vbhavanisankar]] ([[User talk:Vbhavanisankar|talk]]) 05:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== How to improve Wiki submission from content I've made so far? ==

Hello! I'm very new to adding unto wikipedia and I'm trying to create information about the company I work at. Is anybody available to help improve and optimise my short synopsis for Wikipedia?

My name is SustainableJragon, the draft Wiki article is - [[Draft:Sustainable Ventures]]. [[User:SustainableJragon|SustainableJragon]] ([[User talk:SustainableJragon|talk]]) 10:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{u|SustainableJragon}} Hello and welcome. First, you must formally declare your relationship with the company, please see the [[WP:PAID|paid editing policy]]- this is a Terms of Use requirement and mandatory. You should also read [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]].
:You have too many references. That may sound odd, but fewer high quality references are preferable to a large number of low quality references. I think you essentially need to start over from scratch. A Wikipedia article is not a place to summarize the routine activities of the company- an article must summarize what independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] with significant coverage choose to say about your company, showing how it meets the [[WP:ORG|special Wikipedia definition of a notable company]]. Announcements of its activities, interviews, and brief mentions do not establish notability. What are your three(only three, please) best sources that offer significant coverage of your company? [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 10:19, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{ping|SustainableJragon}} I concur with {{u|331dot}}'s assessment. In addition, I suggest reading [[WP:BACKWARD]] to understand the best way to create a new article. - [[User:UtherSRG|UtherSRG]] [[User_talk:UtherSRG|(talk)]] 14:46, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::Please avoid crass sentences such as "''Based in London’s iconic County Hall – it overlooks the Houses of Parliament and the River Thames – ''". This is an encyclopedia, not Sexy Startup Monthly. All of iconic, HoP and Thames are unnecessary, and make the article read like a cheap & desperate advert. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 14:53, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::As far as I can tell from in among the buzzwords and promotional bullshit, the subject is a company that rents out office space. The mention of "valuation uplift of 2.8x at the next round of funding" suggests a WeWork-type scam. I recommend having the article rewritten from scratch, by someone who does not have a PR background. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 16:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== one of the articles is deleted ==

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Bankbazaar [[Special:Contributions/171.76.83.103|171.76.83.103]] ([[User talk:171.76.83.103|talk]]) 13:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:The article was declined, not deleted. Please resolve the issues the declining reviewer raised. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 13:38, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:See [[WP:NCORP]] and [[WP:CORPDEPTH]]. You need more than press reports on the funding of the company. Are they notable in WP terms? Probably not; they're a routine small financial company, of which there are tens of thousands around the world, few of them very notable. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 14:01, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== What to do if I find a "rotten" link? ==

In this page: [[Defensive programming]] In this paragraph:

--

[[Oracle Corporation|Oracle]] is combating legacy problems, such as old source code written without addressing concerns of [[SQL injection]] and [[privilege escalation]], resulting in many security vulnerabilities which have taken time to fix and also generated incomplete fixes. This has given rise to heavy criticism from security experts such as [[David Litchfield]], [[Alexander Kornbrust]], [[Cesar Cerrudo]]. An additional criticism is that default installations (largely a legacy from old versions) are not aligned with their own security recommendations, such as [http://www.oracle.com/technology/deploy/security/database-security/pdf/twp_security_checklist_database.pdf Oracle Database Security Checklist], which is hard to amend as many applications require the less secure legacy settings to function correctly."

--

The "Oracle Database Security Checklist" link is a 404 not found page. I checked for the page using the Wayback Machine on the Internet Archive, but it apparently wasn't archived because all attempts were unsuccessful at crawl time.

What should be done in this case, and in other similar cases? Should the link be removed, or should it be discussed in the talk page first to find an archived copy?

[[User:Avocadoy72|Avocadoy72]] ([[User talk:Avocadoy72|talk]]) 14:59, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:There should not be an inline external link in the body of the article. Such links can be removed, fullstop. You can consider whether the link should be converted into a reference, or into an external link listed at the foot of the article, but IMO you are under no obligation to do so. Especially, you are under no obligatoin to chase down a new URI for a 404. Where a link in the external links section is broken, you can choose whether to remove it, or to try to replace it. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 15:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::I've removed the link. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 15:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== Move the Edit Pencil ==

Most people are right-handed, and it is easy to unintentionally tap the Edit pencil. [[Special:Contributions/162.210.22.155|162.210.22.155]] ([[User talk:162.210.22.155|talk]]) 16:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:This sounds like a mobile device issue. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 16:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:If you could tell us how you use Wikipedia (e.g. browser on a PC, browser on a mobile device, mobile app), we can suggest the best place for you to share your concern (and any suggestions you have to alleviate your concern). Thanks! [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 19:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] It appears that they are on mobile web, going from the tags from the edit this question was made. [[User:NightWolf1223|NW1223]]<[[User talk:NightWolf1223|Howl at me]]•[[Special:Contributions/NightWolf1223|My hunts]]> 19:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== In Monobook skin, any Icon for watched/unwatched? ==

Hi, Previously I was on Timeless skin & recently switched back to Monobook. For Watched pages in Monobook there was a little "Star" icon - clear for Unwatched & hilight (darker) for Watched. Before writing here I've looked & looked within Monobook & cannot find anything except to click on ''Page'' on menu to show "Watched" or "Unwatched". So the question, any Icon in Monobook for Watched/Unwatched? [[User:JoeNMLC|JoeNMLC]] ([[User talk:JoeNMLC|talk]]) 19:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:Do you have [[meta:MoreMenu]] installed here or globally? It might be messing with things. [[User:Edward-Woodrow|Edward-Woodrow]] ([[User talk:Edward-Woodrow|talk]]) 21:56, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

[[Image:Heritage sites advertisement.jpg|thumb]]
:{{re|JoeNMLC}} Hi. Are you asking for mobile, or desktop view? On desktop, I get all options on top (including "move", and "swap") of page. That includes "watch", and "unwatch". The screenshot I provided is very old though. But I still use the monobook, and get same options. There are high chances that I might have customised it, but I can't recall now. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 21:19, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:usernamekiran|usernamekiran]] - Yes, it must be custom as I did search [[MediaWiki:Monobook.css]], [[User:JoeNMLC/monobook.css]], and Archive searches, but unable to find anything about "Watchlist". [[User:JoeNMLC|JoeNMLC]] ([[User talk:JoeNMLC|talk]]) 23:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::{{re|JoeNMLC}} no, it's not the custom watchlist. I meant the settings for all the options being visible without clicking anything. I will look into it tomorrow when I'm on computer. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 00:05, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::{{re|JoeNMLC}} Hi. I logged into my alternate account which has everything to default, and changed the skin to mono. I could see the "watch" option at the top of the page. Like Edward suggested above, you should look for the "MoreMenu" in [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets]]. It should be unchecked. I am thinking yours is checked, and hence you are getting a "Page" menu. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 03:22, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{Done}} - Thankyou @[[User:Edward-Woodrow|Edward-Woodrow]] and @[[User:usernamekiran|usernamekiran]], at Gadgets, I ticked-Off ''MoreMenu'', and ticked-On ''Add a "Purge" option'', so now Monobook-better. Cheers, [[User:JoeNMLC|JoeNMLC]] ([[User talk:JoeNMLC|talk]]) 15:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

==Question==
Where can I see examples, including format specifics, on how to add notability references to a person's Wikipedia article draft ? [[User:Lumelsky|Lumelsky]] ([[User talk:Lumelsky|talk]]) 19:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:You can see examples on most biography pages. Help is available at [[Help:Referencing for beginners]], [[Help:Referencing for beginners without using templates]] or [[Help:Referencing for beginners with citation templates]]. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 19:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:Hello, Lumelsky, and welcome to the Teahouse.
:If you are talking about [[Draft:Vladimir J. Lumelsky]], I would advise that it is not worth doing this. To use a house-building analogy, {{U|Shurm13}} has put up a house without any foundations and without surveying the site, and you are asking how to carry out [[underpinning]] so that it won't fall down. This is a difficult and costly process, which will probably require dismantling quite a lot of the house and rebuilding it again - if it works at all.
:A much better idea would be to abandon the draft which has been written [[WP:BACKWARDS|BACKWARDS]], and start again.. ''Start'' by finding sources that meet the criteria in [[WP:golden rule|golden rule]] - that is, they need to be reliably published, wholly unconnected with Lumelsky (not written, informed, or published, by him, his colleagues, his institutions, his company, or his associates - so not one of the current references is acceptable) and contain [[WP:significant coverage|significant coverage]] of him. If several such sources can be found, then an article can be written, based on what those sources say, not on anything else.
:The additional question is, what is your connection with Vladimir Lumelsky? Are you him? If so, please be aware that [[WP:autobiography|autobiography]] is strongly discouraged. I appreciate that what you are doing is trying to rescue a draft that appears to have been made by somebody else, rather than writing about yourself directly; and on a draft, that is probably acceptable. But please familiarize yourself with advice on editing with a [[WP:conflict of interest|conflict of interest]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 23:19, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== About my article ==

Hi, first of all thank you for taking time to read my article.

I wish to know what is the best procedure to write an article and get it published?

Thanks,

Dan [[User:Navajones|Navajones]] ([[User talk:Navajones|talk]]) 19:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:Dan: make sure you cite enough reliable sources ([[WP:RS]]) to meet general notability guidelines ([[WP:GNG]]). Draft is [[Draft:Daniel Gwilym Jones]]. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 19:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::Ideal, too, to have references for all of the paragraphs, not just the first paragraph. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 19:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::And see also [[WP:YFA]] --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 19:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks [[User:Navajones|Navajones]] ([[User talk:Navajones|talk]]) 19:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== Help with article ==

I need help with an article: [[Draft:Susan_Ericksen]]. It has been rejected multiple times, mostly due to not enough reliable sources and language that sounded overly promotional. Both of these I agreed with and have attempted to resolve. The last editor suggested that I add a COI statement because I interviewed this person on a podcast. Not sure if I did the COI correctly though. I wanted to get some feedback before I attempt to put it into the approval queue again. [[User:AJRyan6of7|AJRyan6of7]] ([[User talk:AJRyan6of7|talk]]) 21:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{ping|AJRyan6of7}} The subject passes [[WP:GNG]], the article is neutral and well sourced. I have promoted it as [[Susan Ericksen]]. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 21:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! If it's not too much to ask, could you also look at [[Draft:David_Colacci]]? The two are married, and much of the info is the same. [[User:AJRyan6of7|AJRyan6of7]] ([[User talk:AJRyan6of7|talk]]) 21:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::{{u|AJRyan6of7}} I would gently note that there is a difference between "rejection" and "declined" in the draft submission process; the former means that a draft may not be resubmitted, the latter means it may be resubmitted. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 21:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Sorry, poor choice of words. Thanks for the correction. [[User:AJRyan6of7|AJRyan6of7]] ([[User talk:AJRyan6of7|talk]]) 21:36, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:::{{ping|AJRyan6of7}} Promoted on the same basis. Check the categories; I stole some from his wife, but there maybe more required. Do you want to put a Connected Contributor notice on the talk page of this one? That on Susan's was good. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 21:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Yes, I have no problem putting a Connected Contributor notice there. Thank You! [[User:AJRyan6of7|AJRyan6of7]] ([[User talk:AJRyan6of7|talk]]) 21:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
{{resolved}}

== Help with Sourcing Marriage and Children ==

Hello editors, I am working to update the article on behalf of [[Jay Sures]] as part of my work with Executive Writing. I am trying to update the article to note that he is married to Linda Nyvltova and that he has three children. However, the only third-party source I have is ''The New York Post'', which is not considered a reliable source for Wikipedia. Is there any other way I could verify his marriage and children that would allow for his article to include this information?

[[User:EWChristine|EWChristine]] ([[User talk:EWChristine|talk]]) 21:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)</blockquote>[[User:EWChristine|EWChristine]] ([[User talk:EWChristine|talk]]) 21:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:EWChristine|EWChristine]]. Firstly, thanks for the declaration about your paid editing on your user page but you '''must''' follow the proper declaration template at [[WP:PAID]]. Failure to do this is a breach of Wikimedia Terms and Conditions. You '''must''' also declare your conflict of interest with the article(s) you are editing, follow the instructions at [[WP:COI]]. We really discourage conflict of interest editing and scrutinise paid editing to a much higher standard.
:That said, thank you for asking your question and clearly being willing to learn our policies and guidelines. The New York Post can be used to source basic biographic facts, such as family life. We would generally prefer a better published source, but if there are none you could use the NYP or simply not include that information in the article. '''[[User:Qcne|Qcne]]''' [[User talk:Qcne|(talk)]] 21:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

== Citation question ==
Longtime editor here with a basic citation question. I recently came across a news clipping that I wasn't sure how to properly cite with the {{t|cite news}}. Newspaper #1 published an article from Newspaper #2. Using the template, I assumed I would put #1 in the <code>|work=</code> parameter and #2 under <code>|publisher=</code>. However, the template documentation says that ''publisher'' is not meant to be used for "{{tq|the name of a work (e.g. a website, book, encyclopedia, newspaper, magazine, journal, etc.)}}". Plus you cannot italicize the publisher field. Ideas on how I should work around this? Thanks in advance! --[[User:GoneIn60|GoneIn60]] ([[User talk:GoneIn60|talk]]) 00:02, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
: Hi {{u|GoneIn60}}. I think you could just cite the original publication and then use the {{para|via}} parameter to indicate the host publication's name. You might also be able to use the {{para|agency}} paramenter for the original publication's name and then format the citation for the host publication. What you're describing seems to be somehat similar to [[:Template:Cite news#Examples]] #5. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 01:40, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::{{u|Marchjuly}}: Yeah, that example is the closest to my situation, but unfortunately the ''agency'' isn't an entity like Reuters or Associated Press. It's another newspaper. I went ahead and used it for that purpose anyway, but unfortunately Newspaper #2 isn't italicized. Oh well, is what it is I suppose. --[[User:GoneIn60|GoneIn60]] ([[User talk:GoneIn60|talk]]) 04:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:I've had this same problem and just ignored Newspaper #2. You could use {{para|agency}} if you're especially concerned about the original attribution, but the resulting template format looks kinda weird, like "{{em|Vancouver Sun.}} Los Angeles Times." (in my case). You can also always add a lil note after the citation template but before the closing {{code|ref}} tag, like "Originally published ''date'' in ''Newspaper #2''." [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 01:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Insulting WI editor ==

What should one do about an unbelievably insulting WI editor who blocked (reverted) a number of entries put up in Wikipedia that contributes to the scholarship on various significant writers. The story: I am professor, and I managed to get some of the leading scholars in the world (over thirty of them, many of them endowed professors) to provide original, brand new critical commentary on 35 Romantic-era poets (like Coleridge, Keats, Wordsworth). These were then fashioned into a terrific scholarly website hosted by my university ("Then & Now: Romantic-Era Poets in the Encyclopedia Britannica"). The WI editor ("Billinghurst") reverted all these, saying that it was "vanity" site, saying that these were "boutique" entries, and then said it was "paid editing" (which of course it isn't), and then said I had a "conflict of interest" because I was the editor of the site. He/she then suggested I must be a very bad professor. This is all a little nuts, imo. What is the best route to take? [[User:Gkblank|Gkblank]] ([[User talk:Gkblank|talk]]) 00:03, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:You do have a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] as Wikipedia defines it. The best route to take is the one suggested by the guidelines for editing with a conflict of interest - do not attempt to add the links yourself. Instead, mention them on the talk pages associated with the relevant articles for consideration by unaffiliated editors. [[User:MrOllie|MrOllie]] ([[User talk:MrOllie|talk]]) 00:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{a note}} This appears to stem from these two threads on [[Special:PermanentLink/1185319365#WP:Directory and WP:External links|Gkblank's talk page]] and [[Special:PermanentLink/1183602494#Restoring links to new scholarship that were erroneously taken down|Billinghurst's talk page]]. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 00:12, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Useful as it is to link to the discussions, the situation stems from Gkblank's COI editing. I concur with MrOllie's advice, which is that Gkblank should not be adding links. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 00:17, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Please explain why links cannot be made to fully legitimate and relevant academic/scholarly articles and essays or to academic sites/scholarly sites? This happens all over on Wikipedia. Thanks for your help. [[User:Gkblank|Gkblank]] ([[User talk:Gkblank|talk]]) 02:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::They can. But they should be made by uninvolved editors. You are by your own admission the professor who commissioned the site. You have a conflict of interest. You have been pointed to [[WP:COI]] which advises you not to edit where you have a COI. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 02:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::And in more detail: there may be tens, or hundreds, or thousands of candidate academic/scholarly articles, essays & sites which could be linked to from a WP article. An uninvolved editor who has the best interests of the wikipedia article at heart is thought likely to make decisions of benefit to the article. An involved editor is as likely to have the interests of their own "Then & Now: Romantic-Era Poets in the Encyclopedia Britannica" website at heart, rather than the WP article; or they'll somehow decide that what is good for one is good for the other. Their judgement is not trusted. It may be that "Then & Now" is a fantastic resource offering insights that really should be linked to. If so, it's to be hoped an uninvolved editor will make such links. It may be that "Then & Now" is not such a hot property. You cannot be unaware, Gkblank, that WP is a popular site, and that having links to your website on several tens of poet articles is in effect an advert for your site; something that will drive traffic to your site. Please do not pretend that you are unaware of the conflict of interest that arises because of this. Your repeated failure to acknowledge this in the Billinghurst conversation and here is, frankly, insulting and disingenuous. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 02:59, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Gkblank}}: you've been adding links to a work of which you're the editor. You have a conflict of interest, and should not do that. If the work is as good as you believe (and I've no reason to doubt it), other, impartial, editors will some day add those links. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 08:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::Thanks. This is actually useful, Tagishsimon. I guess one cares to address the outright rudeness and attempt at uncalled-for condescension made by "Billinghurst." Not to mention the somewhat illiterate nature of the commentary..... [[User:Gkblank|Gkblank]] ([[User talk:Gkblank|talk]]) 23:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== I want to make a made-up anime in my sandbox. ==

So, I want to help new users at the wiki to help how diffrent pages work. I want to make a fictional anime to help some new users to help how those pages work. But I need some sources. Should I use real ones or make them up, but I want to make a made-up anime sandbox to help a new user for an anime page. Is it ok? [[User:DorkLore|DorkLore]] ([[User talk:DorkLore|talk]]) 00:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:I doubt that you know enought about wikipedia to help. For instance, the image you uploaded is almost certainly a copyright violation. That is not a good way to start. I make the suggestion that you should spend some months getting more familiar with wikipedia, before trying to help anyone. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 00:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Sadly, it is not okay. You should not make such a thing. Such content is not appropriate anywhere on Wikipedia. New users will have to receive help in some other way. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 00:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::That is not correct, Alalch E. There is no bar to users using userspace to develop help or training material; see [[Wikipedia:User pages]]. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 00:55, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::A fictional anime using fictitious references or real references used to support the fictional topic is not appropriate content because it resembles a hoax too much. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 01:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::No. That's just your opinion. It might or might not be a concept which someone could put together to deliver something useful. You do not get to say " Such content is not appropriate anywhere on Wikipedia" on the basis of nothing more than your feelings. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 01:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::Agree to disagree. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 01:07, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yeah, no. Unless you can cite a policy or guideline, you're busted, Alalch E. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 01:14, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::"Resembles a hoax too much". You know what policy that attaches to. New users should not be introduced to such content. They should not be taught using fictitious references and they should not be taught using real references that support something fictitious (also known as fake references). They should be taught using real references that support something real. How else would they even understand what the purpose of sourcing is? How do fictitious references and fake references teach verifiability? —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 01:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::It's commonplace to use fictitious examples in training materials. Here's [[Help:Referencing for beginners#cite ref-1]], a fictitious reference on [[Help:Referencing for beginners]]. Please just stop, Alalch E. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 01:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::I don't agree that your counterexample is valid, and I've already said agree to disagree. I do not want to prolong this. Ultimately, this is a good example to our new users coming to this page how disagreements are possible in a variety of environments, and how they're not a big deal. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 01:35, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
{{od}}I take an intermediate position on this disagreement. Hypothetically, some fictional anime content could be usefully incorporated into training materials, but given the nature of anime fandom, I have my doubts that a fictional anime theme is the best choice for training materials. Especially since there are countless examples of interesting factual content and real references to reliable sources that can be incorporated into any such training materials. Even more relevant is that {{u|DorkLore}} has only 29 edits as I write this, and their account is less than two weeks old. Although I appreciate and encourage this new editor, it is hard for me to believe that this editor has the experience necessary to develop useful training materials to "help new users" in any genuine way. Would anyone reasonably expect a new violin student who got their first violin less than two weeks ago to be able to develop training materials for other new violinists? Or a new tennis player or a new chess player? Or a new student of calculus? It strains credulity. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 02:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:WHY DO I HAVE SO MANY NOTIFS HELP- [[User:DorkLore|DorkLore]] ([[User talk:DorkLore|talk]]) 02:59, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::{{u|DorkLore}}, please do not type in all capital letters because that is perceived as shouting. You are getting multiple notifications because you began a conversation that has received a lot of responses. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 03:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:DorkLore|DorkLore]]: {{welcometea}} If you don't want to receive notifications for a particular topic, you can click on the [[file:OOjs UI icon bell-progressive.svg]] {{font|font=Georgia|Unsubscribe}} in the top-right corner of that discussion. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 04:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

==Article request==
Am I allowed to request an article be written about me and give pertinent information? [[User:Everknott|Everknott]] ([[User talk:Everknott|talk]]) 02:15, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:It's not a good idea. There is [[Wikipedia:Requested articles]], but that is for subjects that are notable; you may or may not be notable. Beyond that, there is no tradition of WP entertaining requests by people for articles about themselves, and no venue on wikipedia in which to do so. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 02:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Hello, {{u|Everknott}}. Please carefully read the [[WP:NPERSON|Notability guideline for people]] and explain why you think that you are eligible for a Wikipedia biography. Please also read [[WP:AUTOBIOGRAPHY]] for an understanding of the challenges you face. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of people who attempt to create a Wikipedia biography of themselves end up failing, and it is a frustrating experience for all concerned. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 03:12, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::I was wanting to put a request in on the Producers page I just wasn’t sure if I’m allowed to request one about myself I suspect I meet the notability guidelines [[Wikipedia:Requested articles/music#/editor/21]] [[User:Everknott|Everknott]] ([[User talk:Everknott|talk]]) 03:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I don't think there's anything to stop you from doing that. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 03:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Everknott}}, have you read the two links that I gave you? You are allowed to request whatever you want. There are certainly notable producers in the entertainment industry, but I think that is is safe to say that a majority of producers are not notable. Just as there are notable neurosurgeons, but the majority of neurosurgeons are not notable. The strict requirement is that the person is the subject of significant coverage in several reliable sources that are entirely independent of the person. This is a stringent requirement that is strictly enforced. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 03:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yes I’ve been featured in rolling stone magazine, worked with Stella McCartney Paul McCartney has listened to my music. I’ve got one of them fancy blue check marks on tiktok if that means anything. I’ve been featured on a Live TV news show, been in the LA times etc. [[User:Everknott|Everknott]] ([[User talk:Everknott|talk]]) 03:47, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:Everknott|Everknott]]: {{welcometea}} Please be aware that when Wikipedia uses the term ''[[WP:N|notability]]'', it has a drastically different meaning that standard usage. Feel free to think of it as ''wikinotability'', if you will. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 04:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::{{u|Everknott}}, where is the link to the featured coverage in [[Rolling Stone (magazine)|Rolling Stone]]? Where is the link to the article in the [[Los Angeles Times]]? As for the claim that Paul McCartney listened to your music, that would only matter if reliable sources gave significant coverage to McCartney's opinions of your music. We operate on solid evidence here, not on assertions by people trying to promote themselves. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:56, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Cynically, and also snarky, after you are dead, someone reading your obituary may be moved to compose a Wikipedia article about you. Be patient. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 09:56, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

For the interested, [[Noa Kalos]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 19:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Subject bar formatting help ==

See the last 2 edits I made to [[Christianty]]. I tried to put all the links to other wikiprojects in a [[Template:Subject bar|subject bar]], but it's leaving source text below it for some reason, and [[wikt:Christianity|Wiktionary]] won't show up in the subject bar for some reason. I copied the template from {{slink|Elizabeth II|External links}} and filled it in, but it didn't work properly, and I can't see what I've done wrong.

Please help fix. Thanks. — [[User:Toast for Teddy|Toast for Teddy]] ([[User talk:Toast for Teddy|talk]]) 05:17, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{done|Fixed}} – looks like the closing }} was misplaced (in the middle, rather than the end). [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 05:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you, kind stranger. — [[User:Toast for Teddy|Toast for Teddy]] ([[User talk:Toast for Teddy|talk]]) 05:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== if someone changes my edits/reverts them ==

Will I/how to get notified if someone changes or undoes my edits, please. I want to see so I can see if I'm doing things right and what people think about my edits. [[User:HelloFourthandfremont|Fourthandfremont]] ([[User talk:Fourthandfremont|talk]]) 06:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Hello, {{u|Fourthandfremont}}. If you add the articles that you edit or want to follow for any good reason to your [[WP:WATCHLIST|watchlist]] then you will get notifications of any changes to those articles. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 06:35, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Hello, [[User:Fourthandfremont|Fourthandfremont]], and welcome to the Teahouse! I believe that by default you will be notified of complete reversions of your edits (though you can check in [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo|your notification preferences]]), but I don't think there's a way to be notified of changes to your edits. You might be interested in the [[H:W|watchlist]], a private list of articles that you'd like to monitor changes to. You can add articles to your watchlist by clicking the star icon near the edit button at the top of the page, and you can view your personal watchlist via [[Special:Watchlist]] or the link near your username at the top of every page. [[User:Tollens|Tollens]] ([[User talk:Tollens|talk]]) 06:35, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== how get details of "thanks" ==

Some people have been kind enough to give me a "thanks". On my homepage, I can see the # of thanks so I click on it. Then I see a list of thanks, 1 per line. But how do I see the context? I'd like to see what I did that created the thanks. [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 07:34, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]]: Rather than using your homepage, you can check your notifications with the [[file:OOjs UI icon tray.svg|link=]] icon at the top of the page as thanks will show up there. Clicking on a particular thanks item will bring you to the [[WP:DIFF|diff]] for which you've been thanked for. As an example, I've thanked your post. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 07:41, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::That's just what I wanted. I appreciate it. Also, is there a way for other people to see "thanks" to my edits? I looked at the "view history" for one of my edits that has a thanks, but I couldn't see anything with regards to thanks. [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 07:57, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Sunandshade}} Your thank log [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=thanks&page=Sunandshade] is public. Others cannot se which edits were thanked. See more at [[Help:Notifications/Thanks]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 10:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::I read the help page & learned a lot. I now know how to use the Log page, which I got from the link you showed. Also found I can get to the log page by searching for, special:log . But is there a way to get to my log page by clicking something on my homepage? Seems that would be easier. [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 16:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::That's what you did when you clicked on the linked number of thanks on your homepage. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 16:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Oh, right. Sometimes I keep clicking deeper & deeper, then I forget how I got there. There are soooooo many features in Wikipedia, that sometimes it's hard to keep them straight. [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 16:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|Sunandshade}} The top of user contributions like [[Special:Contributions/Sunandshade]] has a "logs" link to [[Special:Log/Sunandshade]] which is actually what is considered your log page but it shows log entries made by yourself, not those made by others about you. For those, enter "User:" and your username in the "Target" field instead of the "Performer" field. The thanks log is omitted by default but can be selected. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 19:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::::That helped. I appreciate it. [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 19:57, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::The notification icon was useful, as I could see my thanks, tho they are hard to find. I did a Chrome search on the page for "thanked". Is there a better way to find them? [[User:Sunandshade|Sunandshade]] ([[User talk:Sunandshade|talk]]) 16:52, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Not as far as I can tell. You're better off looking at the log for it even if it doesn't tell you which diff you were being thanked for. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 17:56, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Erroneous page deletion warning? ==

[[Nick Bilogorskiy]] was given a deletion warning "this page ... appears to have no references". Guess what, it has 25 references, including the New York Times, CNN, Voice of America, and others. Am I missing something? The refs are no good? The user who added this warning is going around giving similar warnings. If this is indeed a mistake and the warning can be removed, perhaps, you can also suggest how to enhance the page (to amortize the effort of looking at the page). Thx [[User:Qq8|Qq8]] ([[User talk:Qq8|talk]]) 08:59, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:[[User:UnTixic]] made 35 edits on 16 Nov, including three PROD deletion proposals, all of which have been reverted. One of the others was also for no references when it fact it had many references. PROD deletions can be reverted, leaving the proposing editor the recourse of starting an AfD if truely believing the article should be deleted. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 10:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Page publishing ==

Please help me to publish this page [[Draft:Agudath Israel in Moldova]] [[User:Yura kr|Yura kr]] ([[User talk:Yura kr|talk]]) 10:12, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Yura kr|Yura kr]] Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. I am afraid that this draft is not ready for draft review (which I assume is what you mean). Specifically, this draft needs to cite reliable sources. Please see [[WP:Citing sources]] for more information. Ideally, everything you wrote must be backed by some [[WP:Reliable source]], and no [[WP:Original research]] is allowed.
:Please kindly consider improving your draft before you submit it for review. Cheers, --[[User:TheLonelyPather|''The Lonely Pather'']] ([[User talk:TheLonelyPather|talk]]) 10:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Hello, Yura kr, and welcome to the Teahouse and to Wikipedia.
:I'm afraid that (like most new editors who create an account and immediately plunge into the most challenging task there is on Wikipedia - creating a new article) you have written your draft [[WP:BACKWARDS|BACKWARDS]].
:''First'' find the independent sources, and ''then'' summarise what they say. Your knowledge of the subject is valuable in finding and selecting the sources: it is of no value or relevance in writing the article (indeed, it cam sometimes get in the way, because if you know something about the subject which you cannot find in the sources, you must not put that into the article!)
:More generally, I always advise new editors to spend a few weeks or months learning how Wikipedia works by making improvements to some of our six million existing articles, starting with small tasks like copy-editing, and moving up to the most crucial part, which is finding and adding references. See the [[WP:community portal|community portal]] for some suggested tasks; then when you feel you understand enough to try it, read [[WP:your first article|your first article]]. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== important question ==

Hi,

I got the message someone denied my article for creation.

That's all right and i will make the nesscary changes to the draft.

i just wanted to ask that the changes made to existing articles come to the editors or the people like you who review the drafts?

2. if a writer is banned, will his articles stay in the main area? [[User:JAISHRIRAMOMOM|JAISHRIRAMOMOM]] ([[User talk:JAISHRIRAMOMOM|talk]]) 11:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:JAISHRIRAMOMOM|JAISHRIRAMOMOM]], Welcome to the teahouse,
:Answering your first question, there are admins, new page reviewers and Articles for Creation reviewers who review draft articles. Existing articles sometimes have some edits marked as [[Wikipedia:Pending changes|pending changes]] to suppress nuisance which needs to be reviewed by reviewers.
:For your second question, Yes, if an article has no serious issues it will stay in the mainspace even if the user who created it is banned. An article is not dependent on a single user. [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]] ([[User talk:Leoneix|talk]]) 12:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Just to qualify the last, helpful comment by [[User:Leoneix|Leoneix]]: An article might be deleted if it was created by blocked editor who has returned whilst that block is still in effect and is therefore editing as a [[WP:SOCKPUPPET]]. However, if that article has had a lot of edits by other users, then it's probable that the article would not be deleted. [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 12:45, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:JAISHRIRAMOMOM|JAISHRIRAMOMOM]]: my bad for not reading the draft carefully when I declined it; I have now done so, and realised that it is an entirely negative in content, and effectively unreferenced. Please do not create pages which only seek to attack individuals. Thank you. -- [[User:DoubleGrazing|DoubleGrazing]] ([[User talk:DoubleGrazing|talk]]) 13:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Under unexpected consequences, J's draft Speedy deleted and J indefinitely blocked. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 02:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== can someone check my first Wiki page to and help publish it? ==

I uploaded my first wiki page to sandbox, can someone publish it for me from the sandbox? Thanks! [[User:Footballfan145|Footballfan145]] ([[User talk:Footballfan145|talk]]) 16:12, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{ping|Footballfan145}} Fairly sure your image is outside [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] guidelines; too large, shows too much else &c; see especially the policy section in the non-free content page. It is also missing a [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline]] template - {{tl|Non-free use rationale 2}}. I'd be inclined to mark the image page with a {{tl|Db-g7}} to get it deleted. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 16:20, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] the subject is still living, so [[WP:NFC#UUI]] point 1 applies. A non-free image would almost certainly fail [[WP:NFCC#FUC1]]. Since I couldn't locate any free license at the claimed image source, I have therefore tagged the image for speedy deletion under [[WP:F9|F9]]. [[User:Victor Schmidt mobil|Victor Schmidt mobil]] ([[User talk:Victor Schmidt mobil|talk]]) 16:35, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Is there anything else I need to change? [[User:Footballfan145|Footballfan145]] ([[User talk:Footballfan145|talk]]) 16:37, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Can you find an image that could be added to the article? I want to add some image value to the page. Thank you so much! [[User:Footballfan145|Footballfan145]] ([[User talk:Footballfan145|talk]]) 16:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{ping|Footballfan145}} I've made some edits and moved it to the draft name space. When you think it is ready to be published, hit the "submit for review" button. - [[User:UtherSRG|UtherSRG]] [[User_talk:UtherSRG|(talk)]] 16:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::[[Draft:Erik Hansen (football)]] fwiw. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 16:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Are there any pictures of Erik Hansen St. Louis Battlehawks professional football player that I would be allowed to use? Feel free to edit the page as you see fit to ensure it gets published, thank you so much for helping me out! [[User:Footballfan145|Footballfan145]] ([[User talk:Footballfan145|talk]]) 16:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Footballfan145}} Perhaps change all instances of "Erik ..." to "Hansen ...". The article should not refer to the subject by their given name. Then press the "submit for review" button. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 16:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Thank you so much, should I delete the image or keep it? I want to keep an image because it adds value to the page. [[User:Footballfan145|Footballfan145]] ([[User talk:Footballfan145|talk]]) 16:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Footballfan145}} The image is on its way to being deleted. You'll need to find a free image somewhere, if one exists. Press the blue "finished drafting submit for review" button at the top of the page - that puts the draft into the review pipeline. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 16:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Ok thanks, I summited the draft for review. What constitutes as a free image? Could you find one and add it to the draft? I see a lot of pages on professional athletes that have a grid their their image and personal information, I would like to have that added if possible. Thanks for your help. [[User:Footballfan145|Footballfan145]] ([[User talk:Footballfan145|talk]]) 16:57, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::How does my page look? I made some more changes, feel free to change anything. Thanks! [[User:Footballfan145|Footballfan145]] ([[User talk:Footballfan145|talk]]) 18:22, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::No need to ask here any further. Now that you have submitted it, any reviewer can find it and either accept it or decline it. If they decline it, they will comment on why and what needs improvement. - [[User:UtherSRG|UtherSRG]] [[User_talk:UtherSRG|(talk)]] 18:45, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Finding a word ==

I can't find the meaning of a word. [[Special:Contributions/69.75.147.42|69.75.147.42]] ([[User talk:69.75.147.42|talk]]) 17:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:Hello, Ip user. The teahouse is generally used as a forum to help new users ''with editing Wikipedia'' not for general knowledge queries. If you tell me the word, I can try to help, but, in the future, such questions should be asked at [[WP:REFERENCE DESK|the reference desk]]. [[User:Novo Tape| Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)]][[User talk:Novo Tape|My Talk Page]] 17:50, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:well , search it up in a dictionary , what word do you mean ? 😂 [[User:MrBeastRapper|MrBeastRapper]] ([[User talk:MrBeastRapper|talk]]) 17:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Advice/ Assistance Request ==

Greetings,the same editor from topic [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:ToosieJoosie]] which I mentioned here for assistance just a few days ago has just moved another page specifically authored by me without issuing a warning or initiating a talk first [[Talk:Afro house]] once again, inclusive of 'threatening' to move the other [[Afro Tech]] once again,as well , I initiated the talk when I saw a speedy deletion move banner above the page [[Afro house]] only visible as I was editing in 'source mode' , then tracked it to the user's edit history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Styles_of_house_music&action=history , that's how I became aware. The page move was further conducted even though we were still discussing/ debating @[[Talk:Afro house]] and hadn't reached an agreement/ resolution yet. The same user has also been actively contibuting on a page titled in the same manner [[Hard NRG]] since what appears to be 3 years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hard_NRG&action=history without raising any of these types of concerns/ actions for that article. [[Hard NRG]] is a subgenre from the UK, which is not as popular or trending now, both [[Afro Tech]] & [[Afro house]] originated in South Africa 'round about the same time and is predominantly spelled in this manner across various sources by the masses all whilst specifically trending and being popularized globally now in their specific genres/fields, which is even more alarming for what's currently taking place. My allocated mentor @[[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] has been marked away until 31st of December and the substitute @[[User:Fieryninja|Fieryninja]] has recently been unresponsive.

Please assist and/or advise, further. [[User:ToosieJoosie|ToosieJoosie]] ([[User talk:ToosieJoosie|talk]]) 18:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:Sure. As far as I can see this anguished issue, which has spawned its own ANI thread, is about whether the second word in Afro Tech and the second word in Afro House should or should not be capitalised. I'm pleased to say that WP still has the [[Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars]] page. This issue is a candidate for that. My clear advice is that it is not a battle worth fighting, and you should move on and find a better use of your time. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 18:41, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you for your prompt response. I tried to 'move on' by doing other edits and creating other articles , it just so happens that unfortuantely both these sub-genre titles are predominantly spelled this way and what I took/ take an interest in & the same editor is what appears to WP:Following me/ my edits. Furthermore, it's highly unfair that a subgenre [[Hard NRG]] of the same category can be spelled in the same/ similiar manner without encounting these actions/issues.Which the specific editor contributes to. You're right it's entirely lame and should'nt be made such a big deal or be taking place . [[User:ToosieJoosie|ToosieJoosie]] ([[User talk:ToosieJoosie|talk]]) 19:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::{{ping|ToosieJoosie}} Please take the advice I gave: walk away from the issue. You are not doing this. You have convinced yourself that "unfortuantely both these sub-genre titles are predominantly spelled this way " and, moreover, have convinced yourself that a) you are right and b) that this is somehow important. It is not important. It does not matter. And you may not be right. The biggest lesson on wikipedia editing is that there are lots of other editors who do not hold opinions that you hold, and you just have to put up with them. Agitating here, on ANI, on article talk pages, on mentor talk pages ... this is not helpful. It is obsessive behaviour of the sort which makes wikipedia a worse place than it should be. Please give it up and walk away. You are not helping. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 19:31, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Thank you for your prompt response, once again. I did not convince myself , it's what's prevalent and evidential via sources and across various platforms. My intention was and is never, ever to agitate.The editor appears to be the agitator/initiator of everything that took and is taking place, i.e. before all of this I did not even bother with the "Teahouse" or "ANI" for example. I was and am fixated on a positively, impactful and enjoyable editable, experience. Whereas the editor clearly appears to be 'obsessing' on me / my edits.Thank you so much. [[User:ToosieJoosie|ToosieJoosie]] ([[User talk:ToosieJoosie|talk]]) 19:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|ToosieJoosie}} You have made literally hundreds of edits about this stupid issue here, [[Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Increase]], [[User talk:Fieryninja]], [[Talk:Afro house]], [[Talk:Styles of house music]], [[User talk:ToosieJoosie]], [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]], [[User talk:Daniel Case]], [[Talk:Afro Tech]]. Please give it a rest. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 20:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::Thank you for your message, once again. It's unfortunate that , that's what needed to be done to highlight misconduct, unfairness as well as hundreds of other articles with the same title stylization or more pressuring issues which haven't encountered these kinds of constant [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:FOLLOWING&redirect=no WP:FOLLOWING] from one specific editor and obviously "his mates" as you said it's not important and these articles would likely not even be receiving this kind of attention if it wasn't for him, as per newcomer tasks I have come across way worse articles which have been left in those states for literal years, amongst other attributes regarding this issue. Thank you for your constructive criticism and opinion. Take care. [[User:ToosieJoosie|ToosieJoosie]] ([[User talk:ToosieJoosie|talk]]) 20:11, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Well, the best advice I can now give - and which I have given on the ANI thread - is that you should be blocked for your obsessive posting which is degrading wikipedia for the rest of us. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 20:16, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:[[User:Fieryninja]] did engage with your question, but seems to be leaving the thread on their talkpage to the other editors it attracted. There's nothing wrong with this behaviour. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 19:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you for your message. Please don't get me wrong I wasn't insinuating that neither mentors weren't helping etc., I meant because she's unresponsive, I didn't know what else to do hence why I please needed "extra assistance", guidance or advice. My account is literally less than 20 days old and this is the first time, I am editing as well as creating articles. [[User:ToosieJoosie|ToosieJoosie]] ([[User talk:ToosieJoosie|talk]]) 19:12, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::{{U|ToosieJoosie}}, don't despair! The other editor in the thread at [[User talk:Fieryninja#Question from ToosieJoosie (01:31, 14 November 2023)|your mentor's talkpage]] and the editors above have provided sound advice. Best not to sweat the smol stuff. If you ever need direct assistance you can always ask a question inside the {{t|helpme}} template on your own talkpage and someone will usually get back to you quickly. All the best, [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 21:41, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Proper formatting for listing company headquarters ==

Seeking guidance on company headquarters format. Should I include state/province with city and country? Some sources differ. 'City, Country' or 'City, State/Province, Country'? Links appreciated. Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/166.48.65.98|166.48.65.98]] ([[User talk:166.48.65.98|talk]]) 18:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Hello. This varies from country to country, according to what is common in that country. For example, "Newark, United States" is almost never used in the US. Instead, [[Newark, New Jersey]] would be preferred. On the other hand, world famous cities do not need additional designators. [[London]] and [[Tokyo]] and [[Paris]] and [[Cairo]] and [[Los Angeles]] can stand on their own. It is a matter of good editorial judgment. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 19:17, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::Thank you for your answer, but I still have some doubts. In the context of Pakistan, for example, should Karachi be referred to as 'Karachi, Pakistan' or 'Karachi, Sindh, Pakistan'? I've encountered various perplexing practices in Wikipedia articles, where some mention only the city and country, while others include the province. Some articles use a single link like [[Karachi, Sindh]], whereas others link them separately. Should I include a link to Pakistan in these cases? Is there a general rule for this, or am I misunderstanding something?
::I've been unable to find any guidelines on this specific concern as well... [[Special:Contributions/166.48.65.98|166.48.65.98]] ([[User talk:166.48.65.98|talk]]) 22:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:::IP editor: The main guidance is at [[MOS:INTERNAL]]. Of course, given the huge number of articles, exceptions owing to different editor's interpretations (or ignorance of the guideline) will mean that consistency is nearly impossible in practice. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Twinkle ==

On mobile view, where does the Twinkle menu appear? I have enabled it, but can’t find the menu anywhere. [[User:Shadestar474|Shadestar474]] [[User talk:Shadestar474|(talk)]] 18:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{U|Shadestar474}}, it doesn't. Some of the features are available in mobile view (like the "rollback" and "vandalism" links in page histories, and "restore this revision" on old permalinks), but for most of the tasks Twinkle manages you'll have to toggle into "desktop view" on your browser, and then remove the {{code|m.}} from {{code|en.m.wikipedia}} in the URL to exit Minerva. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 14:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Are these articles notable? ==

Do you think these articles are notable?
*[[Cullen Gilchrist]]
*[[Elena Maroulleti]]
[[User:Kk.urban|Kk.urban]] ([[User talk:Kk.urban|talk]]) 19:07, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{ping|Kk.urban}} I haven't looked at the other one yet but in regards to Gilchrist, I'm leaning towards no. I looked at all of the sources listed and they seem to be more about his business than himself. [[User:WikiOriginal-9|WikiOriginal-9]] ([[User talk:WikiOriginal-9|talk]]) 19:22, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== Extended Protection and editing ==

In order to obtain extended protection privileges , you will need to own an account that's 30 days or older with OVER 500 EDITS. Although my account is over 30 days old, I am nowhere near 500 edits. This is because it is so hard ! to find articles to edit. It takes me a long time to find what to edit, and if I do it is usually a minor edit. How do I start editing more, I have no clue! 😲😲😲 [[User:MrBeastRapper|MrBeastRapper]] ([[User talk:MrBeastRapper|talk]]) 19:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:I am learning so much ! from reading these articles, but I can't find any ways to edit them! [[User:MrBeastRapper|MrBeastRapper]] ([[User talk:MrBeastRapper|talk]]) 19:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::If you are interested, you can [[WP:VANDAL|revert vandals]] or [[WP:COPYEDIT|copy edit]] articles in [[:Category:All articles needing copy edit]]. [[User:Sungodtemple|Sungodtemple]] ([[User talk:Sungodtemple|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sungodtemple|contribs]]) 19:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:MrBeastRapper|MrBeastRapper]] [[WP:TASKS]] may have something you find interesting. Or [[WP:REQ]]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 21:57, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:Note: the OP has been indefinitely blocked for sockpuppetry. [[User:CodeTalker|CodeTalker]] ([[User talk:CodeTalker|talk]]) 00:42, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== how to make a page ==

m [[Special:Contributions/2601:CA:4300:A300:71C8:BCAD:7769:CCFF|2601:CA:4300:A300:71C8:BCAD:7769:CCFF]] ([[User talk:2601:CA:4300:A300:71C8:BCAD:7769:CCFF|talk]]) 20:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:Check out [[WP:YFA|Your First Article]]. '''[[User:Qcne|Qcne]]''' [[User talk:Qcne|(talk)]] 20:29, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== sigmature connal ==

i've been trying to make my entire signature green, but for whatever reason, everything i try (moving the style spans to the start and end over and over) either breaks around the first • or doesn't work at all

would anyone happen to know what i might be doing wrong? [[User:Cogsan|cogsan]] • [[User talk:Cogsan|(give me attention)]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cogsan|(see my deeds)]] 20:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:Yes. What you're doing wrong is changing the colour of your sig so that a) it is harder to read and b) uses the same colour as a redirect (based on the User:Anomie/linkclassifier colour scheme). It's not a helpful thing to do. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 20:39, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::in that case, i'll have to change the color too (preferrablly to something more friendly on the eyes, like {{font|text=gonorrhea green on bloodshit brown|color=#54751f|bgcolor=#561a0b}})
::but do you know how i could make the funny dots not be a different color from the rest of the signature?
::i'm not actually gonna use that godawful scheme by the way, i'll probably just go with {{font|text=this somewhat more readable orange|color=#a95c09}} [[User:Cogsan|cogsan]] • [[User talk:Cogsan|(give me attention)]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cogsan|(see my deeds)]] 22:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::My recommendation would be to install the [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jack_who_built_the_house/Convenient_Discussions Convenient Discussions] tool. Then in talk pages you will just see people's actual usernames and not those vanity signatures that just impede communication in numerous ways. [[User:CodeTalker|CodeTalker]] ([[User talk:CodeTalker|talk]]) 00:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{U|Cogsan}}, if you want a vanity signature, then make your own vanity signature. But asking others to help you create it seems to me like a waste of their/our time. (Actually I recommend a signature like [[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]]'s.) -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 23:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
::that wasn't really helpful either, but thanks anyway '''[[User:Cogsan|cogsan]] [[User talk:Cogsan|(give me attention)]] [[Special:Contributions/Cogsan|(see my deeds)]]''' 00:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Well, {{U|Cogsan}}, that is better. Suggestion: Cut "give me" and "see my". Doing so would save bytes and space. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 00:37, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::::tomorrow, when (and if) i also figure out how to make this thing not need the exact same {{font|text=<nowiki>[text]</nowiki>|font=comic sans ms}} used ''thrice'' to make separate links look different
::::that's hogging a lot more than 15 characters '''[[User:Cogsan|cogsan]] [[User talk:Cogsan|(give me attention)]] [[Special:Contributions/Cogsan|(see my deeds)]]''' 00:53, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== RE: Changing Information ==

I would like to make a change to something on Wikipedia. I received this information directly from a former record producer about a song in a personal email. When I posted the information he wrote me on Wikipedia it was changed back. How can I include this information without it being changed back again? I'm assuming I didn't cite the source, but how do you cite what someone wrote you in an email? It's not like you're quoting something from a book. [[User:Rob Weingartner1968|Rob Weingartner1968]] ([[User talk:Rob Weingartner1968|talk]]) 21:43, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Rob Weingartner1968|Rob Weingartner1968]]: {{welcometea}} The problem is that you received this information from a non-published, private correspondence. [[Wikipedia:SELFPUB|Wikipedia's verifiability policy]] does not consider that a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]. Unfortunately, this means that some information, no matter how true it is, may not be suitable for inclusion on here. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 21:47, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Rob Weingartner1968|Rob Weingartner1968]] In short, anything on WP needs a ''published'' [[WP:RS]], and private correspondence doesn't count. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 21:50, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== [[Template:United States Armed Forces]] ==

I noticed that in the equitment part, the land section wasnt showing up and I dont know how to fix it. The land, sea and air are switched, and I tried changing the group and list but it removed both land and air. Can someone help fix it? [[User:HelpingWorld|`~HelpingWorld~`]][[User talk:HelpingWorld| (👽🛸)]] 21:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{U|HelpingWorld}}, in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:United_States_Armed_Forces&oldid=1165292232 the template as it was immediately before your recent set of edits], the set of "land" links does show. Therefore: (i) revert your own set of edits, (ii) make a copy of the template in your own userspace, (iii) edit and experiment with this, and, when it's working as it should, (iv) copy it over the actual template. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 22:56, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

== What namespace is the Main Page in? ==

Hullo friends. This isn't really a question about using or editing Wikipedia, but more of just a question I was curious about. The Main Page's header is just "Main Page" rather than "Special" or "Project page". The Main Page also doesn't have a title, unlike basically every other page (for example, the title of [[Cat|this page]] is "Cat".) I was wondering what namespace the Main Page was in due to these differences. That is all. Thanks in advance! [[User:Antrotherkus|Antrotherkus]] ([[User talk:Antrotherkus|Talk to me!]]) 21:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

:{{ping|Antrotherkus}} Against all logic the Main Page is actually in mainspace (articlespace). [[User:Edward-Woodrow|Edward-Woodrow]] ([[User talk:Edward-Woodrow|talk]]) 21:52, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Antrotherkus|Antrotherkus]]: {{welcometea}} It is in the Main namespace, like articles are. There's more information at [[Wikipedia:Mainspace]]. —[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu 🐲]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 21:52, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:Antrotherkus|Antrotherkus]] Afaict, per [[main page]] it's in article-space. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 21:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{ping|Antrotherkus}} The title on [[Main Page]] is hidden by blanking [[MediaWiki:Mainpage-title]] and [[MediaWiki:Mainpage-title-loggedin]]. This method only works for the main page. Before that feature was added to MediaWiki, it was hidden with code in sitewide CSS files like [[MediaWiki:Vector.css]].[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Vector.css&diff=prev&oldid=1069322648] Such code can also be used for other pages but we don't do it. As others say, the main page is in mainspace which is also called article space, but many of our article policies don't apply to it. For example, it doesn't use references. The content can only be edited by administrators who are supposed to be very careful about anything on the main page. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 13:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Closing a discussion (sSplit article) ==

Hi, I am here ask about how do I close a article talk page discussion after the content got split into a different article as per the discussion performed. I am unable to understand how do I close the split dicussion. Do I just need to shift the content in to the new article (probably creating a new article as requested) and rest be assured by leaving the discussion on the talk page that way. Can someone provide me with example articles where previously split was performed through a discussion. [[User:456legend|456legend]]([[User talk:456legend|talk]]) 02:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
:@[[User:456legend|456legend]] Hello, and welcome to the Teahouse. You can find more instructions at [[WP:CLOSE]]. [[User:NightWolf1223|NW1223]]<[[User talk:NightWolf1223|Howl at me]]•[[Special:Contributions/NightWolf1223|My hunts]]> 03:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:NightWolf1223|NightWolf1223]] thank you for the insight. [[User:456legend|456legend]]([[User talk:456legend|talk]]) 05:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Article writing ==

hello

I would like to know the ideal number of references to use on an article before submitting [[User:Princeisrael2728|Princeisrael2728]] ([[User talk:Princeisrael2728|talk]]) 11:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

:As a rule of thumb, always good to have a minimum of 3 references ([[WP:RS]] which solidly evidence the notability of the subject. --[[User:Tagishsimon|Tagishsimon]] ([[User talk:Tagishsimon|talk]]) 12:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
::@[[User:Princeisrael2728|Princeisrael2728]] And for many topics, especially biographies, they need to [[WP:42|meet ''all'' of these criteria]]. See also [[WP:BACKWARD|this essay]] and note that three is likely to be a minimum, as there should ideally be no overlap in the content of individual references. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Article writing mentirship ==

hello

How do I get someone to mentor me on Wikipedia page article writing [[User:Princeisrael2728|Princeisrael2728]] ([[User talk:Princeisrael2728|talk]]) 16:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

== Creating a new article ==

Hello!
I'm an extended-confirmed user, so I am allowed to create and publish articles myself. However, there is one article in particular I am looking to publish which I submitted for publication a few years back, but it was rejected because of lack of references. Now, I was hoping to recreate it, because several new references have cropped up. Can I simply write the article and publish it, or should I go through the review process because it was rejected in the past?
Thanks,
[[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 16:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Hadamard test

2023-10-28T01:32:42Z

Mover of molehills: Notification: listing of :Hadamard test (quantum computation) at WP:Redirects for discussion.

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== "[[:Hadamard test (quantum computation)]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
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The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hadamard_test_(quantum_computation)&redirect=no Hadamard test (quantum computation)] has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 28#Hadamard test (quantum computation)}}''' until a consensus is reached.  [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 01:32, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Hadamard test (quantum computation)

2023-10-28T01:32:42Z

Mover of molehills: Listed for discussion at :Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 28#Hadamard test (quantum computation).

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Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 28

2023-10-28T01:32:42Z

Mover of molehills: Adding :Hadamard test (quantum computation).

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===[[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 28|October 28]]===
<noinclude>This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on October 28, 2023.</noinclude>


====Hadamard test (quantum computation)====
*{{no redirect|1 = Hadamard test (quantum computation) }} → [[:Hadamard test]]  ([[Talk:Hadamard test (quantum computation)|talk]] · [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Hadamard test (quantum computation)|links]] · [[Special:PageHistory/Hadamard test (quantum computation)|history]] · [[:toolforge:pageviews/?start=2023-09-28&end=2023-10-27&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Hadamard_test_(quantum_computation)|stats]])     <nowiki>[</nowiki> Closure: ''{{#ifeq:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|(@subpage)|[{{fullurl:Hadamard test (quantum computation)|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Hadamard test (quantum computation)]] closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:Hadamard test (quantum computation)|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Hadamard test (quantum computation)]] closed as retarget}}}} retarget]/[{{fullurl:Hadamard test (quantum computation)|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}#Hadamard test (quantum computation)]] closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]}}'' ] 

Unnecessary, since there is only one page called "Hadamard Test" [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 01:32, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Hadamard test (quantum computation)

2023-10-28T01:32:00Z

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Talk:Hadamard test

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Mover of molehills: Mover of molehills moved page Talk:Hadamard test (quantum computation) to Talk:Hadamard test: There is no ambiguity to disambiguate here

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Hadamard test (quantum computation)

2023-10-28T01:32:00Z

Mover of molehills: Mover of molehills moved page Hadamard test (quantum computation) to Hadamard test over redirect: There is no ambiguity to disambiguate here

#REDIRECT [[Hadamard test]]

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Hadamard test

2023-10-28T01:31:57Z

Mover of molehills: Mover of molehills moved page Hadamard test (quantum computation) to Hadamard test over redirect: There is no ambiguity to disambiguate here

{{Short description|Technique in quantum computation}}
[[File:Hadamard test measure real.png|thumb]]

In [[quantum computation]], the '''Hadamard test''' is a method used to create a [[random variable]] whose [[expected value]] is the expected [[real part]] <math>\mathrm{Re}\langle\psi| U|\psi\rangle</math>, where <math> |\psi\rangle </math> is a quantum state and <math>U</math> is a [[quantum gate|unitary gate]] acting on the space of <math>|\psi\rangle</math>.<ref name="DA2009">
{{cite journal
| author = [[Dorit Aharonov]] [[Vaughan Jones]], Zeph Landau
| title = A Polynomial Quantum Algorithm for Approximating the Jones Polynomial
| journal = Algorithmica
| volume = 55
| issue = 3
| pages = 395–421
| year = 2009
| doi = 10.1007/s00453-008-9168-0
| arxiv = quant-ph/0511096
| s2cid = 7058660
}}
</ref> The Hadamard test produces a random variable whose [[Image (mathematics)|image]] is in <math>\{\pm 1\}</math> and whose expected value is exactly <math>\mathrm{Re}\langle\psi| U|\psi\rangle</math>. It is possible to modify the circuit to produce a random variable whose expected value is <math>\mathrm{Im}\langle\psi| U|\psi\rangle</math>.<ref name="DA2009" />

== Description of the circuit ==

To perform the Hadamard test we first calculate the state <math>\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\left(\left|0\right\rangle +\left|1\right\rangle \right)\otimes\left|\psi\right\rangle </math>. We then apply the unitary operator on <math>\left|\psi\right\rangle </math> conditioned on the first [[qubit]] to obtain the state <math>\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\left(\left|0\right\rangle \otimes\left|\psi\right\rangle +\left|1\right\rangle \otimes U\left|\psi\right\rangle \right)</math>. We then apply the [[Quantum Gate#Hadamard gate|Hadamard gate]] to the first qubit, yielding <math>\frac{1}{2}\left(\left|0\right\rangle \otimes(I+U)\left|\psi\right\rangle +\left|1\right\rangle \otimes (I-U)\left|\psi\right\rangle \right)</math>.

Measuring the first qubit, the result is <math>\left|0\right\rangle </math> with probability <math>\frac{1}{4}\langle\psi| (I+U^\dagger)(I+U)|\psi \rangle</math>, in which case we output <math>1</math>. The result is <math>\left|1\right\rangle </math> with probability <math>\frac{1}{4}\langle\psi | (I-U^\dagger)(I-U)| \psi \rangle</math>, in which case we output <math>-1</math>. The expected value of the output will then be the difference between the two probabilities, which is <math>\frac{1}{2} \langle\psi| (U^\dagger+U)| \psi \rangle = \mathrm{Re}\langle\psi | U| \psi \rangle</math>

To obtain a random variable whose expectation is <math>\mathrm{Im}\langle\psi | U | \psi \rangle</math> follow exactly the same procedure but start with <math>\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\left(\left|0\right\rangle -i\left|1\right\rangle \right)\otimes\left|\psi\right\rangle </math>.<ref name="Hadamard test">{{cite book |url=https://quantumalgorithms.org/chapter-intro.html#hadamard-test |title=quantumalgorithms.org - Hadamard test |publisher=Open Publishing |access-date=27 February 2022}}</ref>

The Hadamard test has many applications in [[quantum algorithm]]s such as the [[Aharonov-Jones-Landau algorithm]].
Via a very simple modification it can be used to compute inner product between two states <math>|\phi_1\rangle</math> and <math>|\phi_2\rangle</math>:<ref name="Modified Hadamard test">{{cite book |url=https://quantumalgorithms.org/chapter-intro.html#modified-hadamard-test |title=quantumalgorithms.org - Modified hadamard test |publisher=Open Publishing |access-date=27 February 2022}}</ref> instead of starting from a state <math>|\psi\rangle</math> it suffice to start from the ground state <math>|0\rangle</math>, and perform two controlled operations on the ancilla qubit. Controlled on the ancilla register being <math>|0\rangle</math>, we apply the unitary that produces <math>|\phi_1\rangle</math> in the second register, and controlled on the ancilla register being in the state <math>|1\rangle</math>, we create <math>|\phi_2\rangle</math> in the second register. The expected value of the measurements of the ancilla qubits leads to an estimate of <math>\langle \phi_1|\phi_2\rangle</math>. The number of samples needed to estimate the expected value with absolute error <math>\epsilon</math> is <math>O\left(\frac{1}{\epsilon^2}\right)</math>, because of a [[Chernoff bound]]. This value can be improved to <math>O\left(\frac{1}{\epsilon}\right)</math> using [[amplitude estimation]] techniques.<ref name="Modified Hadamard test" />

==References==
{{reflist}}
,

[[Category:Quantum computing]]
[[Category:Quantum algorithms]]

Right triangle

2023-10-18T15:25:53Z

Mover of molehills: Improved SD

{{short description|Triangle containing a 90-degree angle}}
[[File:Rtriangle.svg|right|frameless|Right angle triangle]]
A '''right triangle''' ([[American English]]) or '''right-angled triangle''' ([[British English|British]]), or more formally an '''orthogonal triangle''', formerly called a '''rectangled triangle'''<ref>{{cite book | last1=Howard | first1=G.S. | last2=Bettesworth | first2=J. | last3=Boswell | first3=H. | last4=Stonehouse | first4=F. | last5=Hogg | first5=A. | title=THE NEW ROYAL CYCLOPAEDIA... | year=1788 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=eLIlOGJnFbIC&pg=PA1787 | access-date=2022-03-07}}</ref> ({{lang-grc|ὀρθόσγωνία|lit=upright angle}}),<ref name="Parrochia2018">{{cite book|author=Daniel Parrochia|title=Mathematics and Philosophy|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=0JFeDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA72|date=24 July 2018|publisher=John Wiley & Sons|isbn=978-1-78630-209-0|pages=72–}}</ref> is a [[triangle]] in which one [[angle]] is a [[right angle]] (that is, a 90-[[Degree (angle)|degree]] angle), i.e., in which two [[polygon side|sides]] are [[perpendicular]]. The relation between the sides and other angles of the right triangle is the basis for [[trigonometry]].

The side opposite to the right angle is called the ''[[hypotenuse]]'' (side ''c'' in the figure). The sides adjacent to the right angle are called ''legs'' (or ''catheti'', singular: ''[[cathetus]]''). Side ''a'' may be identified as the side ''adjacent to angle B'' and ''opposed to'' (or ''opposite'') ''angle A'', while side ''b'' is the side ''adjacent to angle A'' and ''opposed to angle B''.

If the lengths of all three sides of a right triangle are integers, the triangle is said to be a '''Pythagorean triangle''' and its side lengths are collectively known as a ''[[Pythagorean triple]]''.

==Principal properties==

===Sides===
[[File:Illustration to Euclid's proof of the Pythagorean theorem2.svg|thumb|The diagram for Euclid's proof of the Pythagorean theorem: each smaller square has area equal to the rectangle of corresponding color.]]
{{main|Pythagorean theorem}}

The three sides of a right triangle are related by the [[Pythagorean theorem]], which in modern algebraic notation can be written

:<math>a^2 + b^2 = c^2,</math>

where ''c'' is the length of the ''hypotenuse'' (side opposite the right angle), and ''a'' and ''b'' are the lengths of the ''legs'' (remaining two sides). [[Pythagorean triple]]s are integer values of ''a, b, c'' satisfying this equation. This theorem was proven in antiquity, and is proposition I.47 in [[Euclid's Elements|Euclid's ''Elements'']]: "In right-angled triangles the square on the side subtending the right angle is equal to the squares on the sides containing the right angle."

===Area===
As with any triangle, the area is equal to one half the base multiplied by the corresponding height. In a right triangle, if one leg is taken as the base then the other is height, so the area of a right triangle is one half the product of the two legs. As a formula the area ''T'' is
:<math>T=\tfrac{1}{2}ab</math>

where ''a'' and ''b'' are the legs of the triangle.

If the [[Incircle and excircles of a triangle|incircle]] is tangent to the hypotenuse AB at point P, then denoting the [[semi-perimeter]] {{nowrap|(''a'' + ''b'' + ''c'') / 2}} as ''s'', we have {{nowrap|PA {{=}} ''s'' − ''a''}} and {{nowrap|PB {{=}} ''s'' − ''b''}}, and the area is given by
:<math>T=\text{PA} \cdot \text{PB} = (s-a)(s-b).</math>

This formula only applies to right triangles.<ref>Di Domenico, Angelo S., "A property of triangles involving area", ''[[Mathematical Gazette]]'' 87, July 2003, pp. 323–324.</ref>

===Altitudes===
[[Image:Teorema.png|thumb|right|Altitude 'f' of a right triangle]]
If an [[Altitude (triangle)|altitude]] is drawn from the vertex with the right angle to the hypotenuse then the triangle is divided into two smaller triangles which are both [[Similarity (geometry)|similar]] to the original and therefore similar to each other. From this:
* The altitude to the hypotenuse is the [[geometric mean]] ([[Ratio#Euclid's definitions|mean proportional]]) of the two segments of the hypotenuse.<ref name=Posamentier/>{{rp|243}}
* Each leg of the triangle is the mean proportional of the hypotenuse and the segment of the hypotenuse that is adjacent to the leg.
In equations,
:<math>\displaystyle f^2=de,</math> (this is sometimes known as the [[right triangle altitude theorem]])
:<math>\displaystyle b^2=ce,</math>
:<math>\displaystyle a^2=cd</math>

where ''a'', ''b'', ''c'', ''d'', ''e'', ''f'' are as shown in the diagram.<ref>Wentworth p. 156</ref> Thus
:<math>f=\frac{ab}{c}.</math>

Moreover, the altitude to the hypotenuse is related to the legs of the right triangle by<ref>Voles, Roger, "Integer solutions of <math>a^{-2} + b^{-2} = d^{-2}</math>," ''Mathematical Gazette'' 83, July 1999, 269–271.</ref><ref>Richinick, Jennifer, "The upside-down Pythagorean Theorem," ''Mathematical Gazette'' 92, July 2008, 313–317.</ref>
:<math>\frac{1}{a^2} + \frac{1}{b^2} = \frac{1}{f^2}.</math>

For solutions of this equation in integer values of ''a, b, f'', and ''c'', see [[Integer triangle#Pythagorean triangles with integer altitude from the hypotenuse|here]].

The altitude from either leg coincides with the other leg. Since these intersect at the right-angled vertex, the right triangle's [[orthocenter]]—the intersection of its three altitudes—coincides with the right-angled vertex.

===Inradius and circumradius===
The radius of the [[incircle]] of a right triangle with legs ''a'' and ''b'' and hypotenuse ''c'' is
:<math>r = \frac{a+b-c}{2} = \frac{ab}{a+b+c}.</math>

The radius of the [[circumcircle]] is half the length of the hypotenuse,
:<math>R = \frac{c}{2}.</math>

Thus the sum of the circumradius and the inradius is half the sum of the legs:<ref name="Crux">''Inequalities proposed in "[[Crux Mathematicorum]]"'', [http://www.imomath.com/othercomp/Journ/ineq.pdf].</ref>

:<math>R+r = \frac{a+b}{2}.</math>

One of the legs can be expressed in terms of the inradius and the other leg as
:<math>\displaystyle a=\frac{2r(b-r)}{b-2r}.</math>

==Characterizations==
A triangle ''ABC'' with sides <math>a \le b < c</math>, [[semiperimeter]] <math display=inline>s = \tfrac12(a+b+c)</math>, [[area]] ''T'', [[Altitude (triangle)|altitude]] ''h'' opposite the longest side, [[Circumscribed circle|circumradius]] ''R'', [[Incircle and excircles of a triangle#Relation to area of the triangle|inradius]] ''r'', [[Incircle and excircles of a triangle#Relation to area of the triangle|exradii]] ''ra'', ''rb'', ''rc'' (tangent to ''a'', ''b'', ''c'' respectively), and [[Median (geometry)|medians]] ''ma'', ''mb'', ''mc'' is a right triangle [[if and only if]] any one of the statements in the following six categories is true. Each of them is thus also a property of any right triangle.

===Sides and semiperimeter===
* <math>\displaystyle a^2+b^2=c^2\quad (\text{Pythagorean theorem})</math>
* <math>\displaystyle (s-a)(s-b)=s(s-c)</math>
* <math>\displaystyle s=2R+r.</math><ref>{{Cite web |url=http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=411120 |title=Triangle right iff s = 2R + r, ''Art of problem solving'', 2011 |access-date=2012-01-02 |archive-date=2014-04-28 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140428221212/http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=411120 |url-status=dead }}</ref>
* <math>\displaystyle a^2+b^2+c^2=8R^2.</math><ref name=Andreescu/>

===Angles===
* ''A'' and ''B'' are [[complementary angles|complementary]].<ref>{{Cite web |url=http://www.ricksmath.com/right-triangles.html |title=Properties of Right Triangles |access-date=2012-02-15 |archive-date=2011-12-31 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20111231222001/http://www.ricksmath.com/right-triangles.html |url-status=dead }}</ref>
* <math>\displaystyle \cos{A}\cos{B}\cos{C}=0.</math><ref name=Andreescu/><ref name="CTK">CTK Wiki Math, ''A Variant of the Pythagorean Theorem'', 2011, [http://www.cut-the-knot.org/wiki-math/index.php?n=Trigonometry.AVariantOfPythagoreanTheorem] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130805051705/http://www.cut-the-knot.org/wiki-math/index.php?n=Trigonometry.AVariantOfPythagoreanTheorem|date=2013-08-05}}.</ref>
* <math>\displaystyle \sin^2{A}+\sin^2{B}+\sin^2{C}=2.</math><ref name=Andreescu/><ref name=CTK/>
* <math>\displaystyle \cos^2{A}+\cos^2{B}+\cos^2{C}=1.</math><ref name=CTK/>
* <math>\displaystyle \sin{2A}=\sin{2B}=2\sin{A}\sin{B}.</math>

===Area===
* <math>\displaystyle T=\frac{ab}{2}</math>
* <math>\displaystyle T=r_ar_b=rr_c</math>
* <math>\displaystyle T=r(2R+r)</math>
* <math>\displaystyle T=\frac{(2s-c)^2-c^2}{4}=s(s-c)</math>
* <math>T=PA\cdot PB,</math> where ''P'' is the tangency point of the [[Incircle and excircles of a triangle|incircle]] at the longest side ''AB''.<ref>{{citation
|last=Darvasi |first=Gyula
|journal=The Mathematical Gazette
|pages=72–76
|title=Converse of a Property of Right Triangles
|volume=89
|number=514
|date=March 2005|doi=10.1017/S0025557200176806
|s2cid=125992270
|doi-access=free
}}.</ref>

===Inradius and exradii===
* <math>\displaystyle r=s-c=(a+b-c)/2</math>
* <math>\displaystyle r_a=s-b=(a-b+c)/2</math>
* <math>\displaystyle r_b=s-a=(-a+b+c)/2</math>
* <math>\displaystyle r_c=s=(a+b+c)/2</math>
* <math>\displaystyle r_a+r_b+r_c+r=a+b+c</math>
* <math>\displaystyle r_a^2+r_b^2+r_c^2+r^2=a^2+b^2+c^2</math>
* <math>\displaystyle r=\frac{r_ar_b}{r_c}.</math><ref name=Bell>{{citation|last=Bell |first=Amy|journal=Forum Geometricorum|pages=335–342|title=Hansen's Right Triangle Theorem, Its Converse and a Generalization|url=http://forumgeom.fau.edu/FG2006volume6/FG200639.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080725014729/http://forumgeom.fau.edu/FG2006volume6/FG200639.pdf |archive-date=2008-07-25 |url-status=live|volume=6|year=2006}}</ref>

===Altitude and medians===
{{right_angle_altitude.svg}}
* <math>\displaystyle h=\frac{ab}{c}</math>
* <math>\displaystyle m_a^2+m_b^2+m_c^2=6R^2.</math><ref name=Crux/>{{rp|Prob. 954, p. 26}}
* The length of one [[Median (geometry)|median]] is equal to the [[Circumscribed circle|circumradius]].
* The shortest [[Altitude (triangle)|altitude]] (the one from the vertex with the biggest angle) is the [[geometric mean]] of the [[line segment]]s it divides the opposite (longest) side into. This is the [[right triangle altitude theorem]].

===Circumcircle and incircle===
* The triangle can be inscribed in a [[semicircle]], with one side coinciding with the entirety of the diameter ([[Thales' theorem]]).
* The [[Circumscribed circle|circumcenter]] is the [[midpoint]] of the longest side.
* The longest side is a [[diameter]] of the [[Circumscribed circle#Circumscribed circles of triangles|circumcircle]] <math>\displaystyle (c=2R).</math>
* The circumcircle is [[tangent]] to the [[nine-point circle]].<ref name=Andreescu>Andreescu, Titu and Andrica, Dorian, "Complex Numbers from A to...Z", Birkhäuser, 2006, pp. 109–110.</ref>
* The [[Altitude (triangle)#Orthocenter|orthocenter]] lies on the circumcircle.<ref name=Crux/>
* The distance between the [[Incircle and excircles of a triangle|incenter]] and the orthocenter is equal to <math>\sqrt{2}r</math>.<ref name=Crux/>

==Trigonometric ratios==
{{main|Trigonometric functions#Right-angled triangle definitions|l1=Trigonometric functions – Right-angled triangle definitions}}
The [[trigonometric functions]] for acute angles can be defined as ratios of the sides of a right triangle. For a given angle, a right triangle may be constructed with this angle, and the sides labeled opposite, adjacent and hypotenuse with reference to this angle according to the definitions above. These ratios of the sides do not depend on the particular right triangle chosen, but only on the given angle, since all triangles constructed this way are [[similar triangles|similar]]. If, for a given angle α, the opposite side, adjacent side and hypotenuse are labeled ''O'', ''A'' and ''H'' respectively, then the trigonometric functions are
:<math>\sin\alpha =\frac {O}{H},\,\cos\alpha =\frac {A}{H},\,\tan\alpha =\frac {O}{A},\,\sec\alpha =\frac {H}{A},\,\cot\alpha =\frac {A}{O},\,\csc\alpha =\frac {H}{O}.</math>

For the expression of [[hyperbolic function]]s as ratio of the sides of a right triangle, see the [[hyperbolic sector#Hyperbolic triangle|hyperbolic triangle]] of a [[hyperbolic sector]].

==Special right triangles==
{{main|Special right triangles}}
The values of the trigonometric functions can be evaluated exactly for certain angles using right triangles with special angles. These include the ''30-60-90 triangle'' which can be used to evaluate the trigonometric functions for any multiple of π/6, and the ''45-45-90 triangle'' which can be used to evaluate the trigonometric functions for any multiple of π/4.

===Kepler triangle===
Let ''H'', ''G'', and ''A'' be the [[harmonic mean]], the [[geometric mean]], and the [[arithmetic mean]] of two positive numbers ''a'' and ''b'' with ''a'' > ''b''. If a right triangle has legs ''H'' and ''G'' and hypotenuse ''A'', then<ref>Di Domenico, A., "The golden ratio — the right triangle — and the arithmetic, geometric, and harmonic means," ''Mathematical Gazette'' 89, July 2005, 261. Also Mitchell, Douglas W., "Feedback on 89.41", vol 90, March 2006, 153–154.</ref>
:<math>\frac{A}{H} = \frac{A^{2}}{G^{2}} = \frac{G^{2}}{H^{2}} = \phi \,</math>

and
:<math>\frac{a}{b} = \phi^{3}, \, </math>

where <math>\phi</math> is the [[golden ratio]] <math>\tfrac{1+ \sqrt{5}}{2}. \,</math> Since the sides of this right triangle are in [[geometric progression]], this is the [[Kepler triangle]].

==Thales' theorem==
{{main|Thales' theorem}}
[[Image:thm mediane.svg|thumb|300px|right|Median of a right angle of a triangle]]
'''Thales' theorem''' states that if ''A'' is any point of the circle with diameter ''BC'' (except ''B'' or ''C'' themselves) ''ABC'' is a right triangle where ''A'' is the right angle. The converse states that if a right triangle is inscribed in a circle then the hypotenuse will be a diameter of the circle. A corollary is that the length of the hypotenuse is twice the distance from the right angle vertex to the midpoint of the hypotenuse. Also, the center of the circle that [[Circumscribed circle|circumscribes]] a right triangle is the midpoint of the hypotenuse and its radius is one half the length of the hypotenuse.

==Medians==
The following formulas hold for the [[median (geometry)|medians]] of a right triangle:
:<math>m_a^2 + m_b^2 = 5m_c^2 = \frac{5}{4}c^2.</math>

The median on the hypotenuse of a right triangle divides the triangle into two isosceles triangles, because the median equals one-half the hypotenuse.

The medians ''m''''a'' and ''m''''b'' from the legs satisfy<ref name=Crux/>{{rp|p.136,#3110}}

:<math>4c^4+9a^2b^2=16m_a^2m_b^2.</math>

==Euler line==
In a right triangle, the [[Euler line]] contains the median on the hypotenuse—that is, it goes through both the right-angled vertex and the midpoint of the side opposite that vertex. This is because the right triangle's orthocenter, the intersection of its altitudes, falls on the right-angled vertex while its circumcenter, the intersection of its [[Bisection#Perpendicular bisectors|perpendicular bisectors of sides]], falls on the midpoint of the hypotenuse.

==Inequalities==

In any right triangle the diameter of the incircle is less than half the hypotenuse, and more strongly it is less than or equal to the hypotenuse times <math>(\sqrt{2}-1).</math><ref name=PL>Posamentier, Alfred S., and Lehmann, Ingmar. ''[[The Secrets of Triangles]]''. Prometheus Books, 2012.</ref>{{rp|p.281}}

In a right triangle with legs ''a'', ''b'' and hypotenuse ''c'',

:<math>c \geq \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}(a+b)</math>

with equality only in the isosceles case.<ref name=PL/>{{rp|p.282,p.358}}

If the altitude from the hypotenuse is denoted ''h''''c'', then

:<math>h_c \leq \frac{\sqrt {2}}{4}(a+b)</math>

with equality only in the isosceles case.<ref name=PL/>{{rp|p.282}}

==Other properties==
If segments of lengths ''p'' and ''q'' emanating from vertex ''C'' trisect the hypotenuse into segments of length ''c''/3, then<ref name=Posamentier>Posamentier, Alfred S., and Salkind, Charles T. ''Challenging Problems in Geometry'', Dover, 1996.</ref>{{rp|pp. 216–217}}
:<math>p^2 + q^2 = 5\left(\frac{c}{3}\right)^2.</math>

The right triangle is the only triangle having two, rather than one or three, distinct inscribed squares.<ref>Bailey, Herbert, and DeTemple, Duane, "Squares inscribed in angles and triangles", ''[[Mathematics Magazine]]'' 71(4), 1998, 278–284.</ref>

Given ''h'' > ''k''. Let ''h'' and ''k'' be the sides of the two inscribed squares in a right triangle with hypotenuse ''c''. Then
:<math>\frac{1}{c^2} + \frac{1}{h^2} = \frac{1}{k^2}.</math>

These sides and the incircle radius ''r'' are related by a similar formula:

:<math>\displaystyle \frac{1}{r}=-{\frac{1}{c}}+\frac{1}{h}+\frac{1}{k}.</math>

The perimeter of a right triangle equals the sum of the radii of [[Incircle|the incircle and the three excircles]]:

:<math>a+b+c=r+r_a+r_b+r_c.</math>

==See also==
* [[Acute and obtuse triangles]] (oblique triangles)
* [[Spiral of Theodorus]]

==References==
{{reflist}}
* {{MathWorld |title=Right Triangle |urlname=RightTriangle}}
* {{cite book |title=A Text-Book of Geometry |first=G.A. |last=Wentworth |publisher=Ginn & Co. |year=1895
|url=https://archive.org/details/atextbookgeomet10wentgoog}}

==External links==
{{Commons category|Right triangles}}
* [http://www.kurztutorial.info/mathematik/trigonometrie/en/dreieck.html Calculator for right triangles] {{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170930064506/http://www.kurztutorial.info/mathematik/trigonometrie/en/dreieck.html |date=2017-09-30 }}
* [http://www.triangle-calculator.com/?what=rt Advanced right triangle calculator]

{{Polygons}}

[[Category:Types of triangles]]

Electromagnetism

2023-09-04T14:19:33Z

Mover of molehills: /* History of the theory */ Expanded

{{Short description|Fundamental interaction between charged particles}}
{{Seeintro}}
{{Redirect-synonym|Electromagnetic|the use of an [[electromagnet]]}}
{{Redirect|Electromagnetics|the academic journal|Electromagnetics (journal)}}
{{Redirect|Electromagnetic force|the force exerted on particles by electromagnetic fields|Lorentz force}}
{{Pp-semi-indef}}
[[File:Plasma globe 60th.jpg|thumb|300x300px|Electromagnetic interactions are responsible for the glowing filaments in this [[plasma globe]]]]
{{Electromagnetism|cTopic=-}}

In physics, '''electromagnetism''' is an interaction that occurs between [[particles]] with [[electric charge]] via [[electromagnetic fields]]. The electromagnetic force is one of the four fundamental forces of nature. It is the dominant force in the interactions of [[atoms]] and [[molecules]]. Electromagnetism can be thought of as a combination of [[electrostatics]] and [[magnetism]], two distinct but closely intertwined phenomena. Electromagnetic forces occur between any two charged particles, causing an attraction between particles with opposite charges and repulsion between particles with the same charge, while magnetism is an interaction that occurs exclusively between charged particles in relative motion. These two effects combine to create electromagnetic fields in the vicinity of charged particles, which can accelerate other charged particles via the [[Lorentz force]]. At high energy, the [[weak force]] and electromagnetic force are unified as a single [[electroweak interaction|electroweak force]].

The electromagnetic force is responsible for many of the [[chemistry|chemical]] and physical phenomena observed in daily life. The electrostatic attraction between [[atomic nuclei]] and their [[electron]]s holds atoms together. Electric forces also allow different atoms to combine into molecules, including the [[macromolecule|macromolecules]] such as [[proteins]] that form the basis of [[life]]. Meanwhile, magnetic interactions between the [[Electron magnetic moment|spin]] and [[Azimuthal quantum number|angular momentum]] magnetic moments of electrons also play a role in chemical reactivity; such relationships are studied in [[spin chemistry]]. Electromagnetism also plays a crucial role in modern [[technology]]: electrical energy production, transformation and distribution; light, heat, and sound production and detection; fiber optic and wireless communication; sensors; computation; electrolysis; electroplating; and mechanical motors and actuators.

Electromagnetism has been studied since ancient times. Many ancient civilizations, including the [[Ancient Greece|Greeks]] and the [[Maya civilization|Mayans]] created wide-ranging theories to explain [[lightning]], [[static electricity]], and the attraction between magnetized pieces of [[iron ore]]. However, it wasn't until the late 18th century that scientists began to develop a mathematical basis for understanding the nature of electromagnetic interactions. In the 18th and 19th centuries, prominent scientists and mathematicians such as [[Charles-Augustin de Coulomb|Coulomb]], [[Carl Friedrich Gauss|Gauss]] and [[Michael Faraday|Faraday]] developed namesake laws which helped to explain the formation and interaction of electromagnetic fields. This process culminated in the 1860s with the discovery of [[Maxwell's equations]], a set of four [[partial differential equation|partial differential equations]] which provide a complete description of classical electromagnetic fields. Besides providing a sound mathematical basis for the relationships between electricity and magnetism that scientists had been exploring for centuries, Maxwell's equations also predicted the existence of self-sustaining [[electromagnetic radiation|electromagnetic waves]]. Maxwell postulated that such waves make up [[visible light]], which was later shown to be true. Indeed, gamma-rays, x-rays, ultraviolet, visible, infrared radiation, microwaves and radio waves were all determined to be electromagnetic radiation differing only in their range of frequencies.

In the modern era, scientists have continued to refine the theorem of electromagnetism to take into account the effects of [[modern physics]], including [[quantum mechanics]] and [[Theory of relativity|relativity]]. Indeed, the theoretical implications of electromagnetism, particularly the establishment of the speed of light based on properties of the "medium" of propagation ([[permeability (electromagnetism)|permeability]] and [[permittivity]]), helped inspire [[Albert Einstein|Einstein's]] theory of [[special relativity]] in 1905. Meanwhile, the field of [[quantum electrodynamics]] (QED) has modified Maxwell's equations to be consistent with the [[quantization (physics)|quantized]] nature of matter. In QED, the electromagnetic field is expressed in terms of discrete particles known as [[photons]], which are also the physical [[quantum|quanta]] of light. Today, there exist many problems in electromagnetism that remain unsolved, such as the existence of [[magnetic monopoles]] and the mechanism by which some organisms can sense [[electroreception|electric]] and [[magnetoreception|magnetic]] fields.

==History==
{{Main|History of electromagnetic theory}}
===Ancient world===
Investigation into electromagnetic phenomena began as early as 5,000 years ago. There is evidence that the ancient [[History of China|Chinese]],<ref>{{Cite book |last=Meyer |first=Herbert |title=A History of Electricity and Magnetism |year=1972 |page=2 |language=en}}</ref> [[Mayan civilization|Mayan]],<ref>{{Cite web |last=Magazine |first=Smithsonian |last2=Learn |first2=Joshua Rapp |title=Mesoamerican Sculptures Reveal Early Knowledge of Magnetism |url=https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/mesoamerican-sculptures-reveal-early-knowledge-magnetism-180972820/ |access-date=2022-12-07 |website=Smithsonian Magazine |language=en}}</ref>, and potentially even [[Ancient Egypt|Egyptian]] civilizations knew that the naturally magnetic mineral [[magnetite]] had attractive properties, and many incorporated it into their art and architecture.<ref>{{Citation |last=du Trémolet de Lacheisserie |first=É. |title=Magnetism, from the Dawn of Civilization to Today |date=2002 |url=https://doi.org/10.1007/978-0-387-23062-7_1 |work=Magnetism |pages=3–18 |editor-last=du Trémolet de Lacheisserie |editor-first=É. |place=New York, NY |publisher=Springer |language=en |doi=10.1007/978-0-387-23062-7_1 |isbn=978-0-387-23062-7 |access-date=2022-12-07 |last2=Gignoux |first2=D. |last3=Schlenker |first3=M. |editor2-last=Gignoux |editor2-first=D. |editor3-last=Schlenker |editor3-first=M.}}</ref> Ancient people were also aware [[lightning]] and [[static electricity]], although they had no idea of the mechanisms behind these phenomena. The [[Ancient Greece|Greek]] philosopher [[Thales of Miletus]] discovered around 600 B.C.E. that [[amber]] could acquire an electric charge when it was rubbed with cloth, which allowed it to pick up light objects such as pieces of straw. Thales also experimented with the ability of magnetic rocks to attract one other, and hypothesized that this phenomena might be connected to the attractive power of amber, foreshadowing the deep connections between electricity and magnetism that would be discovered many years later. Despite all this investigation, ancient civilizations had no understanding of the the mathematical basis of electromagnetism, and they often analyzed its impacts through the lens of [[religion]] rather than science (lightning, for instance, was considered to be a creation of the gods in many cultures).<ref>{{Cite book |last=Meyer |first=Herbert |title=A History of Electricity and Magnetism |year=1972 |pages=3-4 |language=en}}</ref>

===Renaissance===
[[File:A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism Volume 2 003.jpg|thumb|Cover of ''A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism'']]
In Europe, electricity and magnetism were originally considered to be two separate forces. This view changed with the publication of [[James Clerk Maxwell]]'s 1873 ''[[A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism]]''<ref>{{Cite journal|date=24 April 1873|title=A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism|url=https://www.nature.com/articles/007478a0|journal=Nature|language=en|volume=7|issue=182|pages=478–480|doi=10.1038/007478a0|bibcode=1873Natur...7..478. |s2cid=10178476 |issn=0028-0836}}</ref> in which the interactions of positive and negative charges were shown to be mediated by one force. There are four main effects resulting from these interactions, all of which have been clearly demonstrated by experiments:
# Electric charges ''{{vanchor|attract}}'' or ''{{vanchor|repel}}'' one another with a force [[Proportionality (mathematics)#Inverse proportionality|inversely proportional]] to the square of the distance between them: unlike charges attract, like ones repel.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2019-02-06 |title=Why Do Like Charges Repel And Opposite Charges Attract? |url=https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/like-charges-repel-opposite-charges-attract.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=Science ABC |language=en-US}}</ref>
# Magnetic poles (or states of polarization at individual points) attract or repel one another in a manner similar to positive and negative charges and always exist as pairs: every north pole is yoked to a south pole.<ref>{{Cite web |title=What Makes Magnets Repel? |url=https://sciencing.com/magnets-repel-7754550.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=Sciencing |language=en}}</ref>
# An electric current inside a wire creates a corresponding circumferential magnetic field outside the wire. Its direction (clockwise or counter-clockwise) depends on the direction of the current in the wire.<ref name=lscience >{{Cite web |author1=Jim Lucas Contributions from Ashley Hamer |date=2022-02-18 |title=What Is Faraday's Law of Induction? |url=https://www.livescience.com/53509-faradays-law-induction.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=livescience.com |language=en}}</ref>
# A current is induced in a loop of wire when it is moved toward or away from a magnetic field, or a magnet is moved towards or away from it; the direction of current depends on that of the movement.<ref name=lscience />
In April 1820, [[Hans Christian Ørsted]] observed that an electrical current in a wire caused a nearby compass needle to move. At the time of discovery, Ørsted did not suggest any satisfactory explanation of the phenomenon, nor did he try to represent the phenomenon in a mathematical framework. However, three months later he began more intensive investigations.<ref>{{Cite journal|date=1884-02-23|title=History of the Electric Telegraph|url=http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/scientificamerican02231884-6784supp|journal=Scientific American|volume=17|issue=425supp|pages=6784–6786|doi=10.1038/scientificamerican02231884-6784supp|issn=0036-8733}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/1261807533|title=Volta and the history of electricity|date=2003|publisher=U. Hoepli|others=Fabio Bevilacqua, Enrico A. Giannetto|isbn=88-203-3284-1|location=Milano|oclc=1261807533}}</ref> Soon thereafter he published his findings, proving that an electric current produces a magnetic field as it flows through a wire. The [[CGS]] unit of [[Electromagnetic induction|magnetic induction]] ([[oersted]]) is named in honor of his contributions to the field of electromagnetism.<ref>{{Cite book|last=Roche|first=John J.|url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/40499222|title=The mathematics of measurement : a critical history|date=1998|publisher=Athlone Press|isbn=0-485-11473-9|location=London|oclc=40499222}}</ref>

His findings resulted in intensive research throughout the scientific community in electrodynamics. They influenced French physicist [[André-Marie Ampère]]'s developments of a single mathematical form to represent the magnetic forces between current-carrying conductors. Ørsted's discovery also represented a major step toward a unified concept of energy.

This unification, which was observed by [[Michael Faraday]], extended by [[James Clerk Maxwell]], and partially reformulated by [[Oliver Heaviside]] and [[Heinrich Hertz]], is one of the key accomplishments of 19th-century [[mathematical physics]].<ref>{{cite book |last1=Darrigol |first1=Olivier |title=Electrodynamics from Ampère to Einstein |date=2000 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=New York |isbn=0198505949 |url-access=registration |url=https://archive.org/details/electrodynamicsf0000darr }}</ref> It has had far-reaching consequences, one of which was the understanding of the nature of [[light]]. Unlike what was proposed by the electromagnetic theory of that time, light and other [[electromagnetic radiation|electromagnetic waves]] are at present seen as taking the form of [[quantum|quantized]], self-propagating [[oscillation|oscillatory]] electromagnetic field disturbances called [[photon]]s. Different [[frequency|frequencies]] of oscillation give rise to the different forms of [[electromagnetic radiation]], from [[radio wave]]s at the lowest frequencies, to visible light at intermediate frequencies, to [[gamma ray]]s at the highest frequencies.

Ørsted was not the only person to examine the relationship between electricity and magnetism. In 1802, [[Gian Domenico Romagnosi]], an Italian legal scholar, deflected a magnetic needle using a Voltaic pile. The factual setup of the experiment is not completely clear, nor if current flowed across the needle or not. An account of the discovery was published in 1802 in an Italian newspaper, but it was largely overlooked by the contemporary scientific community, because Romagnosi seemingly did not belong to this community.<ref>{{cite book|last1=Martins |first1=Roberto de Andrade |title=Nuova Voltiana: Studies on Volta and his Times |chapter=Romagnosi and Volta's Pile: Early Difficulties in the Interpretation of Voltaic Electricity |volume=3 |editor=Fabio Bevilacqua |editor2=Lucio Fregonese |publisher=Università degli Studi di Pavia |pages=81–102 |chapter-url=http://ppp.unipv.it/collana/pages/libri/saggi/nuova%20voltiana3_pdf/cap4/4.pdf |access-date=2010-12-02 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130530200951/http://ppp.unipv.it/Collana/Pages/Libri/Saggi/Nuova%20Voltiana3_PDF/cap4/4.pdf |archive-date=2013-05-30 }}</ref>

An earlier (1735), and often neglected, connection between electricity and magnetism was reported by a Dr. Cookson.<ref>VIII. An account of an extraordinary effect of lightning in communicating magnetism. Communicated by Pierce Dod, M.D. F.R.S. from Dr. Cookson of Wakefield in Yorkshire.
Phil. Trans. 1735 39, 74-75, published 1 January 1735</ref> The account stated:<blockquote>A tradesman at Wakefield in Yorkshire, having put up a great number of knives and forks in a large box ... and having placed the box in the corner of a large room, there happened a sudden storm of thunder, lightning, &c. ... The owner emptying the box on a counter where some nails lay, the persons who took up the knives, that lay on the nails, observed that the knives took up the nails. On this the whole number was tried, and found to do the same, and that, to such a degree as to take up large nails, packing needles, and other iron things of considerable weight ...</blockquote> [[E. T. Whittaker]] suggested in 1910 that this particular event was responsible for lightning to be "credited with the power of magnetizing steel; and it was doubtless this which led Franklin in 1751 to attempt to magnetize a sewing-needle by means of the discharge of Leyden jars."<ref>[[E. T. Whittaker|Whittaker, E.T.]] (1910). [[A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity|A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity from the Age of Descartes to the Close of the Nineteenth Century]]. Longmans, Green and Company.</ref>

== Fundamental forces ==
[[File:Circular.Polarization.Circularly.Polarized.Light Right.Handed.Animation.305x190.255Colors.gif|thumb|right|220px|Representation of the electric field vector of a wave of circularly polarized electromagnetic radiation.]]
The electromagnetic force is one of the four known [[fundamental force]]s and the second strongest (after the [[strong interaction|strong nuclear force]]), operating with infinite range;<ref name=space >{{Cite web |last1=Rehm |first1=Jeremy |last2=published |first2=Ben Biggs |date=2021-12-23 |title=The four fundamental forces of nature |url=https://www.space.com/four-fundamental-forces.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=Space.com |language=en}}</ref> The other fundamental forces are:
* the [[strong interaction|strong nuclear force]], which binds [[quark]]s to form [[nucleon]]s, and binds nucleons to form [[Atomic nucleus|nuclei]]; it is the strongest of the four known fundamental forces, but operates only at short range;<ref name=space />
* the [[weak interaction|weak nuclear force]], which binds to all known particles in the [[Standard Model]], and causes certain forms of [[radioactive decay]]; it is the second weakest of the four fundamental forces and, like the strong nuclear force, operates only at short range (in [[particle physics]], the [[electroweak interaction]] is the unified description of two of the four known fundamental interactions of nature: electro{{shy}}magnetism and the weak interaction);<ref name=space />
* the [[gravity|gravitational force]] is the only one of the four fundamental forces that is not part of the [[Standard Model|Standard Model of particle physics]]; while by far the weakest of the four fundamental forces, the gravitational force, along with the electro{{shy}}magnetic force, operates at infinite range.<ref name=space />
All other forces (e.g., [[friction]], contact forces) are derived from these four [[fundamental forces]] and they are known as [[Force#Non-fundamental forces|non-fundamental forces]].<ref>Browne, "Physics for Engineering and Science", p. 160: "Gravity is one of the fundamental forces of nature. The other forces such as friction, tension, and the normal force are derived from the electric force, another of the fundamental forces. Gravity is a rather weak force... The electric force between two protons is much stronger than the gravitational force between them."</ref>

Roughly speaking, all the forces involved in interactions between [[atom]]s can be explained by the electromagnetic force acting between the electrically charged [[Atomic nucleus|atomic nuclei]] and [[electron]]s of the atoms. Electromagnetic forces also explain how these particles carry momentum by their movement. This includes the forces we experience in "pushing" or "pulling" ordinary material objects, which result from the [[intermolecular force]]s that act between the individual [[molecule]]s in our bodies and those in the objects. The electromagnetic force is also involved in all forms of [[chemistry|chemical phenomena]].

A necessary part of understanding the intra-atomic and intermolecular forces is the effective force generated by the momentum of the electrons' movement, such that as electrons move between interacting atoms they carry momentum with them. As a collection of electrons becomes more confined, their minimum momentum necessarily increases due to the [[Pauli exclusion principle]]. The behaviour of matter at the molecular scale including its density is determined by the balance between the electromagnetic force and the force generated by the exchange of momentum carried by the electrons themselves.<ref>Purcell, "Electricity and Magnetism, 3rd Edition", p. 546: Ch 11 Section 6, "Electron Spin and Magnetic Moment."</ref>

==Classical electrodynamics==
{{Main|Classical electrodynamics}}

In 1600, [[William Gilbert (astronomer)|William Gilbert]] proposed, in his ''[[De Magnete]]'', that electricity and magnetism, while both capable of causing attraction and repulsion of objects, were distinct effects.<ref>{{Cite journal |last1=Malin |first1=Stuart |last2=Barraclough |first2=David |date=2000 |title=Gilbert's De Magnete: An early study of magnetism and electricity |url=http://doi.wiley.com/10.1029/00EO00163 |journal=Eos, Transactions American Geophysical Union |language=en |volume=81 |issue=21 |pages=233 |doi=10.1029/00EO00163 |bibcode=2000EOSTr..81..233M |issn=0096-3941}}</ref> Mariners had noticed that lightning strikes had the ability to disturb a compass needle. The link between lightning and electricity was not confirmed until [[Benjamin Franklin]]'s proposed experiments in 1752 were conducted on 10{{nbsp}}May 1752 by [[Thomas-François Dalibard]] of France using a {{convert|40|ft|m|adj=mid|-tall}} iron rod instead of a kite and he successfully extracted electrical sparks from a cloud.<ref>{{Cite web |url=http://www.mos.org/sln/toe/kite.html |title=Lightning! | Museum of Science, Boston}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book |last=Tucker |first=Tom |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51763922 |title=Bolt of fate : Benjamin Franklin and his electric kite hoax |date=2003 |publisher=PublicAffairs |isbn=1-891620-70-3 |edition=1st |location=New York |oclc=51763922}}</ref>

One of the first to discover and publish a link between man-made electric current and magnetism was [[Romagnosi|Gian Romagnosi]], who in 1802 noticed that connecting a wire across a [[voltaic pile]] deflected a nearby [[compass]] needle. However, the effect did not become widely known until 1820, when Ørsted performed a similar experiment.<ref name='Oersted'>{{cite web|url=http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/whmfield.html |title=Magnetic Fields – History |access-date=2009-11-27 |last1=Stern |first1=Dr. David P. |first2=Mauricio |last2=Peredo |date=2001-11-25 |publisher=NASA Goddard Space Flight Center }}</ref> Ørsted's work influenced Ampère to conduct further experiments, which eventually gave rise to a new area of physics: electrodynamics. By determining a force law for the interaction between elements of electric current, Ampère placed the subject on a solid mathematical foundation.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2016-01-13 |title=Andre-Marie Ampère |url=https://ethw.org/Andre-Marie_Amp%C3%A8re |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=ETHW |language=en}}</ref>

A theory of electromagnetism, known as [[classical electromagnetism]], was developed by several physicists during the period between 1820 and 1873, when [[James Clerk Maxwell]]'s [[A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism|treatise]] was published, which unified previous developments into a single theory, proposing that light was an electromagnetic wave propagating in the ''luminiferous ether''.<ref>Purcell, p. 436. Chapter 9.3, "Maxwell's description of the electromagnetic field was essentially complete."</ref> In classical electromagnetism, the behavior of the electromagnetic field is described by a set of equations known as [[Maxwell's equations]], and the electromagnetic force is given by the [[Lorentz force|Lorentz force law]].<ref>Purcell: p. 278: Chapter 6.1, "Definition of the Magnetic Field." Lorentz force and force equation.</ref>

One of the peculiarities of classical electromagnetism is that it is difficult to reconcile with [[classical mechanics]], but it is compatible with special relativity. According to Maxwell's equations, the [[speed of light]] in vacuum is a universal constant that is dependent only on the [[Permittivity|electrical permittivity]] and [[magnetic permeability]] of [[free space]]. This violates [[Galilean invariance]], a long-standing cornerstone of classical mechanics. One way to reconcile the two theories (electromagnetism and classical mechanics) is to assume the existence of a [[luminiferous aether]] through which the light propagates. However, subsequent experimental efforts failed to detect the presence of the aether. After important contributions of [[Hendrik Lorentz]] and [[Henri Poincaré]], in 1905, [[Albert Einstein]] solved the problem with the introduction of special relativity, which replaced classical kinematics with a new theory of kinematics compatible with classical electromagnetism. (For more information, see [[History of special relativity]].)

In addition, relativity theory implies that in moving frames of reference, a magnetic field transforms to a field with a nonzero electric component and conversely, a moving electric field transforms to a nonzero magnetic component, thus firmly showing that the phenomena are two sides of the same coin. Hence the term "electromagnetism". (For more information, see [[Classical electromagnetism and special relativity]] and [[Covariant formulation of classical electromagnetism]].)

==Extension to nonlinear phenomena==
The Maxwell equations are ''linear,'' in that a change in the sources (the charges and currents) results in a proportional change of the fields. [[Nonlinear system|Nonlinear dynamics]] can occur when electromagnetic fields couple to matter that follows nonlinear dynamical laws.<ref>{{Cite journal |last1=Jufriansah |first1=Adi |last2=Hermanto |first2=Arief |last3=Toifur |first3=Moh. |last4=Prasetyo |first4=Erwin |date=2020-05-18 |title=Theoretical study of Maxwell's equations in nonlinear optics |url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/5.0008179 |journal=AIP Conference Proceedings |volume=2234 |issue=1 |pages=040013 |doi=10.1063/5.0008179 |bibcode=2020AIPC.2234d0013J |s2cid=219451710 |issn=0094-243X}}</ref> This is studied, for example, in the subject of [[magnetohydrodynamics]], which combines Maxwell theory with the [[Navier–Stokes equations]].<ref>{{Cite thesis |title=Some aspects of magnetohydrodynamics |url=https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/handle/1810/254713 |publisher=University of Cambridge |date=1967-07-27 |degree=Thesis |doi=10.17863/cam.14141 |language=en |first=Julian C. R. |last=Hunt}}</ref>

==Quantities and units==
{{see also|List of physical quantities|List of electromagnetism equations}}
Here is a list of common units related to electromagnetism:<ref>{{Cite web |title=Essentials of the SI: Base & derived units |url=https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=physics.nist.gov}}</ref>
{{Div col}}
* [[ampere]] (electric current)
* [[coulomb]] (electric charge)
* [[farad]] (capacitance)
* [[henry (unit)|henry]] (inductance)
* [[ohm]] (resistance)
* [[siemens (unit)|siemens]] (conductance)
* [[tesla (unit)|tesla]] (magnetic flux density)
* [[volt]] (electric potential)
* [[watt]] (power)
* [[weber (unit)|weber]] (magnetic flux)
{{Div col end}}
In the electromagnetic [[Centimetre gram second system of units|CGS]] system, electric current is a fundamental quantity defined via [[Ampère's law]] and takes the [[Permeability (electromagnetism)|permeability]] as a dimensionless quantity (relative permeability) whose value in vacuum is [[one|unity]].<ref>{{Cite journal |date=April 1921 |title=Tables of Physical and Chemical Constants, and some Mathematical Functions |url=https://www.nature.com/articles/107264c0 |journal=Nature |language=en |volume=107 |issue=2687 |pages=264 |doi=10.1038/107264c0 |bibcode=1921Natur.107R.264. |issn=1476-4687}}</ref> As a consequence, the square of the speed of light appears explicitly in some of the equations interrelating quantities in this system.

{{SI electromagnetism units}}

Formulas for physical laws of electromagnetism (such as [[Maxwell's equations]]) need to be adjusted depending on what system of units one uses. This is because there is no [[one-to-one correspondence]] between electromagnetic units in SI and those in CGS, as is the case for mechanical units. Furthermore, within CGS, there are several plausible choices of electromagnetic units, leading to different unit "sub-systems", including [[Gaussian units|Gaussian]], "ESU", "EMU", and [[Heaviside–Lorentz]]. Among these choices, Gaussian units are the most common today, and in fact the phrase "CGS units" is often used to refer specifically to [[Gaussian units|CGS-Gaussian units]].<ref>{{Cite web|title=Conversion of formulae and quantities between unit systems|url=http://nlpc.stanford.edu/nleht/Science/reference/conversion.pdf|access-date=29 January 2022|website=www.stanford.edu}}</ref>

== Applications ==
The study of electromagnetism informs [[Electrical network|electric circuits]] and [[Semiconductor device|semiconductor devices]]' construction.

==See also==
{{Div col|colwidth=25em}}
* [[Abraham–Lorentz force]]
* [[Aeromagnetic survey]]s
* [[Computational electromagnetics]]
* [[Double-slit experiment]]
* [[Electromagnet]]
* [[Electromagnetic induction]]
* [[Electromagnetic wave equation]]
* [[Electromagnetic scattering]]
* [[Electromechanics]]
* [[Geophysics]]
* [[Introduction to electromagnetism]]
* [[Magnetostatics]]
* [[Magnetoquasistatic field]]
* [[Optics]]
* [[Relativistic electromagnetism]]
* [[Wheeler–Feynman absorber theory]]
{{Div col end}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
{{Library resources box
|by=no
|onlinebooks=no
|others=no
|about=yes
|label=Electromagnetism
}}

===Web sources===
{{Refbegin}}
* {{cite web
| last = Nave
| first = R.
| title = Electricity and magnetism
| url = http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/emcon.html#emcon
| website=HyperPhysics
| publisher=Georgia State University
| access-date = 2013-11-12
}}
* {{cite web
| last = Khutoryansky
| first = E.
| title = Electromagnetism – Maxwell's Laws
| website = [[YouTube]]
| url = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tm2c6NJH4Y
| access-date = 2014-12-28
}}
{{Refend}}

===Textbooks===
{{Refbegin}}
* {{cite book|title=Electricity and Modern Physics |edition=2nd|author=G.A.G. Bennet|publisher=Edward Arnold (UK)|year=1974|isbn=978-0-7131-2459-0}}
* {{cite book|author=Browne, Michael | title= Physics for Engineering and Science |edition=2nd | publisher= McGraw-Hill/Schaum| year= 2008 | isbn=978-0-07-161399-6}}
* {{cite book | last = Dibner | first = Bern | title = Oersted and the discovery of electromagnetism | publisher = Literary Licensing, LLC | year = 2012 | isbn =978-1-258-33555-7}}
* {{cite book |author1=Durney, Carl H. |author2=Johnson, Curtis C. | title=Introduction to modern electromagnetics | publisher=McGraw-Hill |year=1969 |isbn=978-0-07-018388-9}}
* {{cite book |author=Feynman, Richard P. |title=The Feynman Lectures on Physics Vol II |publisher=Addison Wesley Longman |year=1970 |isbn=978-0-201-02115-8 |url=https://feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_toc.html}}
* {{cite book|last=Fleisch|first=Daniel|title=A Student's Guide to Maxwell's Equations|year=2008|publisher=Cambridge University Press|location=Cambridge, UK|isbn=978-0-521-70147-1}}
* {{cite book|title=Electromagnetism|url=https://archive.org/details/electromagnetism0000gran|url-access=registration|edition=2nd|author1=I.S. Grant |author2=W.R. Phillips |author3=Manchester Physics |publisher=John Wiley & Sons|year=2008|isbn=978-0-471-92712-9}}
* {{cite book | last = Griffiths | first = David J. | title = Introduction to Electrodynamics | edition = 3rd | publisher = Prentice Hall | year = 1998 | isbn = 978-0-13-805326-0 | author-link = David J. Griffiths | url = https://archive.org/details/introductiontoel00grif_0 }}
* {{cite book | last = Jackson | first = John D. | title = Classical Electrodynamics | url = https://archive.org/details/classicalelectro0000jack_e8g9 | url-access = registration |author-link=John David Jackson (physicist) |edition = 3rd | publisher = Wiley | year = 1998 | isbn = 978-0-471-30932-1}}
* {{cite book| last =Moliton| first =André| title = Basic electromagnetism and materials| publisher =Springer-Verlag New York | year=2007| location = New York | work =430 pages| url =https://books.google.com/books?id=2kPAIlxjDJwC&q=fundamental | isbn =978-0-387-30284-3}}
* {{cite book | author=Purcell, Edward M. | author-link = Edward Mills Purcell | title=Electricity and Magnetism Berkeley, Physics Course Volume 2 (2nd ed.) | publisher=McGraw-Hill | year=1985 | isbn=978-0-07-004908-6}}
* {{cite book | author=Purcell, Edward M and Morin, David. | title=Electricity and Magnetism, 820p| edition= 3rd | publisher= Cambridge University Press, New York.| year = 2013 | isbn= 978-1-107-01402-2}}
* {{cite book | author=Rao, Nannapaneni N. | title=Elements of engineering electromagnetics (4th ed.)| publisher=Prentice Hall |year=1994 |isbn=978-0-13-948746-0}}
* {{cite book | last1 = Rothwell | first1 = Edward J. | last2 = Cloud |first2=Michael J. | title = Electromagnetics | publisher = CRC Press | year = 2001 | isbn = 978-0-8493-1397-4}}
* {{cite book | last = Tipler | first = Paul | title = Physics for Scientists and Engineers: Vol. 2: Light, Electricity and Magnetism | edition = 4th | publisher = W.H. Freeman | year = 1998 | isbn = 978-1-57259-492-0}}
* {{cite book | last1 = Wangsness | first1 = Roald K. | last2 = Cloud |first2=Michael J. | title = Electromagnetic Fields | publisher = Wiley | year = 1986 | isbn = 978-0-471-81186-2| edition = 2nd }}
{{Refend}}

===General coverage===
{{Refbegin}}
* {{cite book|title=Concepts of Modern Physics|edition=4th|author=A. Beiser|publisher=McGraw-Hill (International)|year=1987|isbn=978-0-07-100144-1}}
* {{cite book|title=Physics with Modern Applications|author=L.H. Greenberg|publisher=Holt-Saunders International W.B. Saunders and Co|year=1978|isbn=978-0-7216-4247-5|url-access=registration|url=https://archive.org/details/physicswithmoder0000gree}}
* {{cite book|pages=12–13|author1=R.G. Lerner |author1-link=Rita G. Lerner|author2=G.L. Trigg | title=Encyclopaedia of Physics| publisher=VHC Publishers, Hans Warlimont, Springer|edition=2nd| year=2005| isbn=978-0-07-025734-4}}
* {{cite book|title=Principles of Physics|author1=J.B. Marion |author2=W.F. Hornyak |publisher=Holt-Saunders International Saunders College|year=1984|isbn=978-4-8337-0195-2}}
* {{cite book|title=The Physics of Vibrations and Waves|edition=3rd|author=H.J. Pain|publisher=John Wiley & Sons |year=1983|isbn=978-0-471-90182-2}}
* {{cite book| author=C.B. Parker| title=McGraw Hill Encyclopaedia of Physics| publisher=McGraw Hill| edition=2nd| year=1994| isbn=978-0-07-051400-3| url=https://archive.org/details/mcgrawhillencycl1993park}}
* {{cite book |author=R. Penrose| title=The Road to Reality| publisher= Vintage books| year=2007 | isbn=978-0-679-77631-4| title-link=The Road to Reality}}
* {{cite book|author1=P.A. Tipler |author2=G. Mosca | title=Physics for Scientists and Engineers: With Modern Physics| publisher=W.H. Freeman and Co|edition=6th| year=2008| isbn=978-1-4292-0265-7}}
* {{cite book|author1=P.M. Whelan |author2=M.J. Hodgeson | title=Essential Principles of Physics| publisher=John Murray|edition=2nd| year=1978 | isbn=978-0-7195-3382-2}}
{{Refend}}

== External links ==
{{wikiquote}}
* [http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_converter/magnetic-field-strength.html Magnetic Field Strength Converter]
* [http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ElectromagneticForce.html Electromagnetic Force] – from Eric Weisstein's World of Physics

{{Fundamental interactions}}
{{Branches of physics}}
{{Magnetic states}}
{{Authority control}}

[[Category:Electromagnetism| ]]
[[Category:Electrodynamics| ]]
[[Category:Fundamental interactions]]

Electromagnetism

2023-09-04T14:18:22Z

Mover of molehills: Changed short description

{{Short description|Fundamental interaction between charged particles}}
{{Seeintro}}
{{Redirect-synonym|Electromagnetic|the use of an [[electromagnet]]}}
{{Redirect|Electromagnetics|the academic journal|Electromagnetics (journal)}}
{{Redirect|Electromagnetic force|the force exerted on particles by electromagnetic fields|Lorentz force}}
{{Pp-semi-indef}}
[[File:Plasma globe 60th.jpg|thumb|300x300px|Electromagnetic interactions are responsible for the glowing filaments in this [[plasma globe]]]]
{{Electromagnetism|cTopic=-}}

In physics, '''electromagnetism''' is an interaction that occurs between [[particles]] with [[electric charge]] via [[electromagnetic fields]]. The electromagnetic force is one of the four fundamental forces of nature. It is the dominant force in the interactions of [[atoms]] and [[molecules]]. Electromagnetism can be thought of as a combination of [[electrostatics]] and [[magnetism]], two distinct but closely intertwined phenomena. Electromagnetic forces occur between any two charged particles, causing an attraction between particles with opposite charges and repulsion between particles with the same charge, while magnetism is an interaction that occurs exclusively between charged particles in relative motion. These two effects combine to create electromagnetic fields in the vicinity of charged particles, which can accelerate other charged particles via the [[Lorentz force]]. At high energy, the [[weak force]] and electromagnetic force are unified as a single [[electroweak interaction|electroweak force]].

The electromagnetic force is responsible for many of the [[chemistry|chemical]] and physical phenomena observed in daily life. The electrostatic attraction between [[atomic nuclei]] and their [[electron]]s holds atoms together. Electric forces also allow different atoms to combine into molecules, including the [[macromolecule|macromolecules]] such as [[proteins]] that form the basis of [[life]]. Meanwhile, magnetic interactions between the [[Electron magnetic moment|spin]] and [[Azimuthal quantum number|angular momentum]] magnetic moments of electrons also play a role in chemical reactivity; such relationships are studied in [[spin chemistry]]. Electromagnetism also plays a crucial role in modern [[technology]]: electrical energy production, transformation and distribution; light, heat, and sound production and detection; fiber optic and wireless communication; sensors; computation; electrolysis; electroplating; and mechanical motors and actuators.

Electromagnetism has been studied since ancient times. Many ancient civilizations, including the [[Ancient Greece|Greeks]] and the [[Maya civilization|Mayans]] created wide-ranging theories to explain [[lightning]], [[static electricity]], and the attraction between magnetized pieces of [[iron ore]]. However, it wasn't until the late 18th century that scientists began to develop a mathematical basis for understanding the nature of electromagnetic interactions. In the 18th and 19th centuries, prominent scientists and mathematicians such as [[Charles-Augustin de Coulomb|Coulomb]], [[Carl Friedrich Gauss|Gauss]] and [[Michael Faraday|Faraday]] developed namesake laws which helped to explain the formation and interaction of electromagnetic fields. This process culminated in the 1860s with the discovery of [[Maxwell's equations]], a set of four [[partial differential equation|partial differential equations]] which provide a complete description of classical electromagnetic fields. Besides providing a sound mathematical basis for the relationships between electricity and magnetism that scientists had been exploring for centuries, Maxwell's equations also predicted the existence of self-sustaining [[electromagnetic radiation|electromagnetic waves]]. Maxwell postulated that such waves make up [[visible light]], which was later shown to be true. Indeed, gamma-rays, x-rays, ultraviolet, visible, infrared radiation, microwaves and radio waves were all determined to be electromagnetic radiation differing only in their range of frequencies.

In the modern era, scientists have continued to refine the theorem of electromagnetism to take into account the effects of [[modern physics]], including [[quantum mechanics]] and [[Theory of relativity|relativity]]. Indeed, the theoretical implications of electromagnetism, particularly the establishment of the speed of light based on properties of the "medium" of propagation ([[permeability (electromagnetism)|permeability]] and [[permittivity]]), helped inspire [[Albert Einstein|Einstein's]] theory of [[special relativity]] in 1905. Meanwhile, the field of [[quantum electrodynamics]] (QED) has modified Maxwell's equations to be consistent with the [[quantization (physics)|quantized]] nature of matter. In QED, the electromagnetic field is expressed in terms of discrete particles known as [[photons]], which are also the physical [[quantum|quanta]] of light. Today, there exist many problems in electromagnetism that remain unsolved, such as the existence of [[magnetic monopoles]] and the mechanism by which some organisms can sense [[electroreception|electric]] and [[magnetoreception|magnetic]] fields.

==History of the theory==
{{See also|History of electromagnetic theory}}
[[File:A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism Volume 2 003.jpg|thumb|Cover of ''A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism'']]
Originally, electricity and magnetism were considered to be two separate forces. This view changed with the publication of [[James Clerk Maxwell]]'s 1873 ''[[A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism]]''<ref>{{Cite journal|date=24 April 1873|title=A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism|url=https://www.nature.com/articles/007478a0|journal=Nature|language=en|volume=7|issue=182|pages=478–480|doi=10.1038/007478a0|bibcode=1873Natur...7..478. |s2cid=10178476 |issn=0028-0836}}</ref> in which the interactions of positive and negative charges were shown to be mediated by one force. There are four main effects resulting from these interactions, all of which have been clearly demonstrated by experiments:
# Electric charges ''{{vanchor|attract}}'' or ''{{vanchor|repel}}'' one another with a force [[Proportionality (mathematics)#Inverse proportionality|inversely proportional]] to the square of the distance between them: unlike charges attract, like ones repel.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2019-02-06 |title=Why Do Like Charges Repel And Opposite Charges Attract? |url=https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/like-charges-repel-opposite-charges-attract.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=Science ABC |language=en-US}}</ref>
# Magnetic poles (or states of polarization at individual points) attract or repel one another in a manner similar to positive and negative charges and always exist as pairs: every north pole is yoked to a south pole.<ref>{{Cite web |title=What Makes Magnets Repel? |url=https://sciencing.com/magnets-repel-7754550.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=Sciencing |language=en}}</ref>
# An electric current inside a wire creates a corresponding circumferential magnetic field outside the wire. Its direction (clockwise or counter-clockwise) depends on the direction of the current in the wire.<ref name=lscience >{{Cite web |author1=Jim Lucas Contributions from Ashley Hamer |date=2022-02-18 |title=What Is Faraday's Law of Induction? |url=https://www.livescience.com/53509-faradays-law-induction.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=livescience.com |language=en}}</ref>
# A current is induced in a loop of wire when it is moved toward or away from a magnetic field, or a magnet is moved towards or away from it; the direction of current depends on that of the movement.<ref name=lscience />
In April 1820, [[Hans Christian Ørsted]] observed that an electrical current in a wire caused a nearby compass needle to move. At the time of discovery, Ørsted did not suggest any satisfactory explanation of the phenomenon, nor did he try to represent the phenomenon in a mathematical framework. However, three months later he began more intensive investigations.<ref>{{Cite journal|date=1884-02-23|title=History of the Electric Telegraph|url=http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/scientificamerican02231884-6784supp|journal=Scientific American|volume=17|issue=425supp|pages=6784–6786|doi=10.1038/scientificamerican02231884-6784supp|issn=0036-8733}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/1261807533|title=Volta and the history of electricity|date=2003|publisher=U. Hoepli|others=Fabio Bevilacqua, Enrico A. Giannetto|isbn=88-203-3284-1|location=Milano|oclc=1261807533}}</ref> Soon thereafter he published his findings, proving that an electric current produces a magnetic field as it flows through a wire. The [[CGS]] unit of [[Electromagnetic induction|magnetic induction]] ([[oersted]]) is named in honor of his contributions to the field of electromagnetism.<ref>{{Cite book|last=Roche|first=John J.|url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/40499222|title=The mathematics of measurement : a critical history|date=1998|publisher=Athlone Press|isbn=0-485-11473-9|location=London|oclc=40499222}}</ref>

His findings resulted in intensive research throughout the scientific community in electrodynamics. They influenced French physicist [[André-Marie Ampère]]'s developments of a single mathematical form to represent the magnetic forces between current-carrying conductors. Ørsted's discovery also represented a major step toward a unified concept of energy.

This unification, which was observed by [[Michael Faraday]], extended by [[James Clerk Maxwell]], and partially reformulated by [[Oliver Heaviside]] and [[Heinrich Hertz]], is one of the key accomplishments of 19th-century [[mathematical physics]].<ref>{{cite book |last1=Darrigol |first1=Olivier |title=Electrodynamics from Ampère to Einstein |date=2000 |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=New York |isbn=0198505949 |url-access=registration |url=https://archive.org/details/electrodynamicsf0000darr }}</ref> It has had far-reaching consequences, one of which was the understanding of the nature of [[light]]. Unlike what was proposed by the electromagnetic theory of that time, light and other [[electromagnetic radiation|electromagnetic waves]] are at present seen as taking the form of [[quantum|quantized]], self-propagating [[oscillation|oscillatory]] electromagnetic field disturbances called [[photon]]s. Different [[frequency|frequencies]] of oscillation give rise to the different forms of [[electromagnetic radiation]], from [[radio wave]]s at the lowest frequencies, to visible light at intermediate frequencies, to [[gamma ray]]s at the highest frequencies.

Ørsted was not the only person to examine the relationship between electricity and magnetism. In 1802, [[Gian Domenico Romagnosi]], an Italian legal scholar, deflected a magnetic needle using a Voltaic pile. The factual setup of the experiment is not completely clear, nor if current flowed across the needle or not. An account of the discovery was published in 1802 in an Italian newspaper, but it was largely overlooked by the contemporary scientific community, because Romagnosi seemingly did not belong to this community.<ref>{{cite book|last1=Martins |first1=Roberto de Andrade |title=Nuova Voltiana: Studies on Volta and his Times |chapter=Romagnosi and Volta's Pile: Early Difficulties in the Interpretation of Voltaic Electricity |volume=3 |editor=Fabio Bevilacqua |editor2=Lucio Fregonese |publisher=Università degli Studi di Pavia |pages=81–102 |chapter-url=http://ppp.unipv.it/collana/pages/libri/saggi/nuova%20voltiana3_pdf/cap4/4.pdf |access-date=2010-12-02 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130530200951/http://ppp.unipv.it/Collana/Pages/Libri/Saggi/Nuova%20Voltiana3_PDF/cap4/4.pdf |archive-date=2013-05-30 }}</ref>

An earlier (1735), and often neglected, connection between electricity and magnetism was reported by a Dr. Cookson.<ref>VIII. An account of an extraordinary effect of lightning in communicating magnetism. Communicated by Pierce Dod, M.D. F.R.S. from Dr. Cookson of Wakefield in Yorkshire.
Phil. Trans. 1735 39, 74-75, published 1 January 1735</ref> The account stated:<blockquote>A tradesman at Wakefield in Yorkshire, having put up a great number of knives and forks in a large box ... and having placed the box in the corner of a large room, there happened a sudden storm of thunder, lightning, &c. ... The owner emptying the box on a counter where some nails lay, the persons who took up the knives, that lay on the nails, observed that the knives took up the nails. On this the whole number was tried, and found to do the same, and that, to such a degree as to take up large nails, packing needles, and other iron things of considerable weight ...</blockquote> [[E. T. Whittaker]] suggested in 1910 that this particular event was responsible for lightning to be "credited with the power of magnetizing steel; and it was doubtless this which led Franklin in 1751 to attempt to magnetize a sewing-needle by means of the discharge of Leyden jars."<ref>[[E. T. Whittaker|Whittaker, E.T.]] (1910). [[A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity|A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity from the Age of Descartes to the Close of the Nineteenth Century]]. Longmans, Green and Company.</ref>

== Fundamental forces ==
[[File:Circular.Polarization.Circularly.Polarized.Light Right.Handed.Animation.305x190.255Colors.gif|thumb|right|220px|Representation of the electric field vector of a wave of circularly polarized electromagnetic radiation.]]
The electromagnetic force is one of the four known [[fundamental force]]s and the second strongest (after the [[strong interaction|strong nuclear force]]), operating with infinite range;<ref name=space >{{Cite web |last1=Rehm |first1=Jeremy |last2=published |first2=Ben Biggs |date=2021-12-23 |title=The four fundamental forces of nature |url=https://www.space.com/four-fundamental-forces.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=Space.com |language=en}}</ref> The other fundamental forces are:
* the [[strong interaction|strong nuclear force]], which binds [[quark]]s to form [[nucleon]]s, and binds nucleons to form [[Atomic nucleus|nuclei]]; it is the strongest of the four known fundamental forces, but operates only at short range;<ref name=space />
* the [[weak interaction|weak nuclear force]], which binds to all known particles in the [[Standard Model]], and causes certain forms of [[radioactive decay]]; it is the second weakest of the four fundamental forces and, like the strong nuclear force, operates only at short range (in [[particle physics]], the [[electroweak interaction]] is the unified description of two of the four known fundamental interactions of nature: electro{{shy}}magnetism and the weak interaction);<ref name=space />
* the [[gravity|gravitational force]] is the only one of the four fundamental forces that is not part of the [[Standard Model|Standard Model of particle physics]]; while by far the weakest of the four fundamental forces, the gravitational force, along with the electro{{shy}}magnetic force, operates at infinite range.<ref name=space />
All other forces (e.g., [[friction]], contact forces) are derived from these four [[fundamental forces]] and they are known as [[Force#Non-fundamental forces|non-fundamental forces]].<ref>Browne, "Physics for Engineering and Science", p. 160: "Gravity is one of the fundamental forces of nature. The other forces such as friction, tension, and the normal force are derived from the electric force, another of the fundamental forces. Gravity is a rather weak force... The electric force between two protons is much stronger than the gravitational force between them."</ref>

Roughly speaking, all the forces involved in interactions between [[atom]]s can be explained by the electromagnetic force acting between the electrically charged [[Atomic nucleus|atomic nuclei]] and [[electron]]s of the atoms. Electromagnetic forces also explain how these particles carry momentum by their movement. This includes the forces we experience in "pushing" or "pulling" ordinary material objects, which result from the [[intermolecular force]]s that act between the individual [[molecule]]s in our bodies and those in the objects. The electromagnetic force is also involved in all forms of [[chemistry|chemical phenomena]].

A necessary part of understanding the intra-atomic and intermolecular forces is the effective force generated by the momentum of the electrons' movement, such that as electrons move between interacting atoms they carry momentum with them. As a collection of electrons becomes more confined, their minimum momentum necessarily increases due to the [[Pauli exclusion principle]]. The behaviour of matter at the molecular scale including its density is determined by the balance between the electromagnetic force and the force generated by the exchange of momentum carried by the electrons themselves.<ref>Purcell, "Electricity and Magnetism, 3rd Edition", p. 546: Ch 11 Section 6, "Electron Spin and Magnetic Moment."</ref>

==Classical electrodynamics==
{{Main|Classical electrodynamics}}

In 1600, [[William Gilbert (astronomer)|William Gilbert]] proposed, in his ''[[De Magnete]]'', that electricity and magnetism, while both capable of causing attraction and repulsion of objects, were distinct effects.<ref>{{Cite journal |last1=Malin |first1=Stuart |last2=Barraclough |first2=David |date=2000 |title=Gilbert's De Magnete: An early study of magnetism and electricity |url=http://doi.wiley.com/10.1029/00EO00163 |journal=Eos, Transactions American Geophysical Union |language=en |volume=81 |issue=21 |pages=233 |doi=10.1029/00EO00163 |bibcode=2000EOSTr..81..233M |issn=0096-3941}}</ref> Mariners had noticed that lightning strikes had the ability to disturb a compass needle. The link between lightning and electricity was not confirmed until [[Benjamin Franklin]]'s proposed experiments in 1752 were conducted on 10{{nbsp}}May 1752 by [[Thomas-François Dalibard]] of France using a {{convert|40|ft|m|adj=mid|-tall}} iron rod instead of a kite and he successfully extracted electrical sparks from a cloud.<ref>{{Cite web |url=http://www.mos.org/sln/toe/kite.html |title=Lightning! | Museum of Science, Boston}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book |last=Tucker |first=Tom |url=https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51763922 |title=Bolt of fate : Benjamin Franklin and his electric kite hoax |date=2003 |publisher=PublicAffairs |isbn=1-891620-70-3 |edition=1st |location=New York |oclc=51763922}}</ref>

One of the first to discover and publish a link between man-made electric current and magnetism was [[Romagnosi|Gian Romagnosi]], who in 1802 noticed that connecting a wire across a [[voltaic pile]] deflected a nearby [[compass]] needle. However, the effect did not become widely known until 1820, when Ørsted performed a similar experiment.<ref name='Oersted'>{{cite web|url=http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/whmfield.html |title=Magnetic Fields – History |access-date=2009-11-27 |last1=Stern |first1=Dr. David P. |first2=Mauricio |last2=Peredo |date=2001-11-25 |publisher=NASA Goddard Space Flight Center }}</ref> Ørsted's work influenced Ampère to conduct further experiments, which eventually gave rise to a new area of physics: electrodynamics. By determining a force law for the interaction between elements of electric current, Ampère placed the subject on a solid mathematical foundation.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2016-01-13 |title=Andre-Marie Ampère |url=https://ethw.org/Andre-Marie_Amp%C3%A8re |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=ETHW |language=en}}</ref>

A theory of electromagnetism, known as [[classical electromagnetism]], was developed by several physicists during the period between 1820 and 1873, when [[James Clerk Maxwell]]'s [[A Treatise on Electricity and Magnetism|treatise]] was published, which unified previous developments into a single theory, proposing that light was an electromagnetic wave propagating in the ''luminiferous ether''.<ref>Purcell, p. 436. Chapter 9.3, "Maxwell's description of the electromagnetic field was essentially complete."</ref> In classical electromagnetism, the behavior of the electromagnetic field is described by a set of equations known as [[Maxwell's equations]], and the electromagnetic force is given by the [[Lorentz force|Lorentz force law]].<ref>Purcell: p. 278: Chapter 6.1, "Definition of the Magnetic Field." Lorentz force and force equation.</ref>

One of the peculiarities of classical electromagnetism is that it is difficult to reconcile with [[classical mechanics]], but it is compatible with special relativity. According to Maxwell's equations, the [[speed of light]] in vacuum is a universal constant that is dependent only on the [[Permittivity|electrical permittivity]] and [[magnetic permeability]] of [[free space]]. This violates [[Galilean invariance]], a long-standing cornerstone of classical mechanics. One way to reconcile the two theories (electromagnetism and classical mechanics) is to assume the existence of a [[luminiferous aether]] through which the light propagates. However, subsequent experimental efforts failed to detect the presence of the aether. After important contributions of [[Hendrik Lorentz]] and [[Henri Poincaré]], in 1905, [[Albert Einstein]] solved the problem with the introduction of special relativity, which replaced classical kinematics with a new theory of kinematics compatible with classical electromagnetism. (For more information, see [[History of special relativity]].)

In addition, relativity theory implies that in moving frames of reference, a magnetic field transforms to a field with a nonzero electric component and conversely, a moving electric field transforms to a nonzero magnetic component, thus firmly showing that the phenomena are two sides of the same coin. Hence the term "electromagnetism". (For more information, see [[Classical electromagnetism and special relativity]] and [[Covariant formulation of classical electromagnetism]].)

==Extension to nonlinear phenomena==
The Maxwell equations are ''linear,'' in that a change in the sources (the charges and currents) results in a proportional change of the fields. [[Nonlinear system|Nonlinear dynamics]] can occur when electromagnetic fields couple to matter that follows nonlinear dynamical laws.<ref>{{Cite journal |last1=Jufriansah |first1=Adi |last2=Hermanto |first2=Arief |last3=Toifur |first3=Moh. |last4=Prasetyo |first4=Erwin |date=2020-05-18 |title=Theoretical study of Maxwell's equations in nonlinear optics |url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/5.0008179 |journal=AIP Conference Proceedings |volume=2234 |issue=1 |pages=040013 |doi=10.1063/5.0008179 |bibcode=2020AIPC.2234d0013J |s2cid=219451710 |issn=0094-243X}}</ref> This is studied, for example, in the subject of [[magnetohydrodynamics]], which combines Maxwell theory with the [[Navier–Stokes equations]].<ref>{{Cite thesis |title=Some aspects of magnetohydrodynamics |url=https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/handle/1810/254713 |publisher=University of Cambridge |date=1967-07-27 |degree=Thesis |doi=10.17863/cam.14141 |language=en |first=Julian C. R. |last=Hunt}}</ref>

==Quantities and units==
{{see also|List of physical quantities|List of electromagnetism equations}}
Here is a list of common units related to electromagnetism:<ref>{{Cite web |title=Essentials of the SI: Base & derived units |url=https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html |access-date=2022-08-22 |website=physics.nist.gov}}</ref>
{{Div col}}
* [[ampere]] (electric current)
* [[coulomb]] (electric charge)
* [[farad]] (capacitance)
* [[henry (unit)|henry]] (inductance)
* [[ohm]] (resistance)
* [[siemens (unit)|siemens]] (conductance)
* [[tesla (unit)|tesla]] (magnetic flux density)
* [[volt]] (electric potential)
* [[watt]] (power)
* [[weber (unit)|weber]] (magnetic flux)
{{Div col end}}
In the electromagnetic [[Centimetre gram second system of units|CGS]] system, electric current is a fundamental quantity defined via [[Ampère's law]] and takes the [[Permeability (electromagnetism)|permeability]] as a dimensionless quantity (relative permeability) whose value in vacuum is [[one|unity]].<ref>{{Cite journal |date=April 1921 |title=Tables of Physical and Chemical Constants, and some Mathematical Functions |url=https://www.nature.com/articles/107264c0 |journal=Nature |language=en |volume=107 |issue=2687 |pages=264 |doi=10.1038/107264c0 |bibcode=1921Natur.107R.264. |issn=1476-4687}}</ref> As a consequence, the square of the speed of light appears explicitly in some of the equations interrelating quantities in this system.

{{SI electromagnetism units}}

Formulas for physical laws of electromagnetism (such as [[Maxwell's equations]]) need to be adjusted depending on what system of units one uses. This is because there is no [[one-to-one correspondence]] between electromagnetic units in SI and those in CGS, as is the case for mechanical units. Furthermore, within CGS, there are several plausible choices of electromagnetic units, leading to different unit "sub-systems", including [[Gaussian units|Gaussian]], "ESU", "EMU", and [[Heaviside–Lorentz]]. Among these choices, Gaussian units are the most common today, and in fact the phrase "CGS units" is often used to refer specifically to [[Gaussian units|CGS-Gaussian units]].<ref>{{Cite web|title=Conversion of formulae and quantities between unit systems|url=http://nlpc.stanford.edu/nleht/Science/reference/conversion.pdf|access-date=29 January 2022|website=www.stanford.edu}}</ref>

== Applications ==
The study of electromagnetism informs [[Electrical network|electric circuits]] and [[Semiconductor device|semiconductor devices]]' construction.

==See also==
{{Div col|colwidth=25em}}
* [[Abraham–Lorentz force]]
* [[Aeromagnetic survey]]s
* [[Computational electromagnetics]]
* [[Double-slit experiment]]
* [[Electromagnet]]
* [[Electromagnetic induction]]
* [[Electromagnetic wave equation]]
* [[Electromagnetic scattering]]
* [[Electromechanics]]
* [[Geophysics]]
* [[Introduction to electromagnetism]]
* [[Magnetostatics]]
* [[Magnetoquasistatic field]]
* [[Optics]]
* [[Relativistic electromagnetism]]
* [[Wheeler–Feynman absorber theory]]
{{Div col end}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

==Further reading==
{{Library resources box
|by=no
|onlinebooks=no
|others=no
|about=yes
|label=Electromagnetism
}}

===Web sources===
{{Refbegin}}
* {{cite web
| last = Nave
| first = R.
| title = Electricity and magnetism
| url = http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/emcon.html#emcon
| website=HyperPhysics
| publisher=Georgia State University
| access-date = 2013-11-12
}}
* {{cite web
| last = Khutoryansky
| first = E.
| title = Electromagnetism – Maxwell's Laws
| website = [[YouTube]]
| url = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tm2c6NJH4Y
| access-date = 2014-12-28
}}
{{Refend}}

===Textbooks===
{{Refbegin}}
* {{cite book|title=Electricity and Modern Physics |edition=2nd|author=G.A.G. Bennet|publisher=Edward Arnold (UK)|year=1974|isbn=978-0-7131-2459-0}}
* {{cite book|author=Browne, Michael | title= Physics for Engineering and Science |edition=2nd | publisher= McGraw-Hill/Schaum| year= 2008 | isbn=978-0-07-161399-6}}
* {{cite book | last = Dibner | first = Bern | title = Oersted and the discovery of electromagnetism | publisher = Literary Licensing, LLC | year = 2012 | isbn =978-1-258-33555-7}}
* {{cite book |author1=Durney, Carl H. |author2=Johnson, Curtis C. | title=Introduction to modern electromagnetics | publisher=McGraw-Hill |year=1969 |isbn=978-0-07-018388-9}}
* {{cite book |author=Feynman, Richard P. |title=The Feynman Lectures on Physics Vol II |publisher=Addison Wesley Longman |year=1970 |isbn=978-0-201-02115-8 |url=https://feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_toc.html}}
* {{cite book|last=Fleisch|first=Daniel|title=A Student's Guide to Maxwell's Equations|year=2008|publisher=Cambridge University Press|location=Cambridge, UK|isbn=978-0-521-70147-1}}
* {{cite book|title=Electromagnetism|url=https://archive.org/details/electromagnetism0000gran|url-access=registration|edition=2nd|author1=I.S. Grant |author2=W.R. Phillips |author3=Manchester Physics |publisher=John Wiley & Sons|year=2008|isbn=978-0-471-92712-9}}
* {{cite book | last = Griffiths | first = David J. | title = Introduction to Electrodynamics | edition = 3rd | publisher = Prentice Hall | year = 1998 | isbn = 978-0-13-805326-0 | author-link = David J. Griffiths | url = https://archive.org/details/introductiontoel00grif_0 }}
* {{cite book | last = Jackson | first = John D. | title = Classical Electrodynamics | url = https://archive.org/details/classicalelectro0000jack_e8g9 | url-access = registration |author-link=John David Jackson (physicist) |edition = 3rd | publisher = Wiley | year = 1998 | isbn = 978-0-471-30932-1}}
* {{cite book| last =Moliton| first =André| title = Basic electromagnetism and materials| publisher =Springer-Verlag New York | year=2007| location = New York | work =430 pages| url =https://books.google.com/books?id=2kPAIlxjDJwC&q=fundamental | isbn =978-0-387-30284-3}}
* {{cite book | author=Purcell, Edward M. | author-link = Edward Mills Purcell | title=Electricity and Magnetism Berkeley, Physics Course Volume 2 (2nd ed.) | publisher=McGraw-Hill | year=1985 | isbn=978-0-07-004908-6}}
* {{cite book | author=Purcell, Edward M and Morin, David. | title=Electricity and Magnetism, 820p| edition= 3rd | publisher= Cambridge University Press, New York.| year = 2013 | isbn= 978-1-107-01402-2}}
* {{cite book | author=Rao, Nannapaneni N. | title=Elements of engineering electromagnetics (4th ed.)| publisher=Prentice Hall |year=1994 |isbn=978-0-13-948746-0}}
* {{cite book | last1 = Rothwell | first1 = Edward J. | last2 = Cloud |first2=Michael J. | title = Electromagnetics | publisher = CRC Press | year = 2001 | isbn = 978-0-8493-1397-4}}
* {{cite book | last = Tipler | first = Paul | title = Physics for Scientists and Engineers: Vol. 2: Light, Electricity and Magnetism | edition = 4th | publisher = W.H. Freeman | year = 1998 | isbn = 978-1-57259-492-0}}
* {{cite book | last1 = Wangsness | first1 = Roald K. | last2 = Cloud |first2=Michael J. | title = Electromagnetic Fields | publisher = Wiley | year = 1986 | isbn = 978-0-471-81186-2| edition = 2nd }}
{{Refend}}

===General coverage===
{{Refbegin}}
* {{cite book|title=Concepts of Modern Physics|edition=4th|author=A. Beiser|publisher=McGraw-Hill (International)|year=1987|isbn=978-0-07-100144-1}}
* {{cite book|title=Physics with Modern Applications|author=L.H. Greenberg|publisher=Holt-Saunders International W.B. Saunders and Co|year=1978|isbn=978-0-7216-4247-5|url-access=registration|url=https://archive.org/details/physicswithmoder0000gree}}
* {{cite book|pages=12–13|author1=R.G. Lerner |author1-link=Rita G. Lerner|author2=G.L. Trigg | title=Encyclopaedia of Physics| publisher=VHC Publishers, Hans Warlimont, Springer|edition=2nd| year=2005| isbn=978-0-07-025734-4}}
* {{cite book|title=Principles of Physics|author1=J.B. Marion |author2=W.F. Hornyak |publisher=Holt-Saunders International Saunders College|year=1984|isbn=978-4-8337-0195-2}}
* {{cite book|title=The Physics of Vibrations and Waves|edition=3rd|author=H.J. Pain|publisher=John Wiley & Sons |year=1983|isbn=978-0-471-90182-2}}
* {{cite book| author=C.B. Parker| title=McGraw Hill Encyclopaedia of Physics| publisher=McGraw Hill| edition=2nd| year=1994| isbn=978-0-07-051400-3| url=https://archive.org/details/mcgrawhillencycl1993park}}
* {{cite book |author=R. Penrose| title=The Road to Reality| publisher= Vintage books| year=2007 | isbn=978-0-679-77631-4| title-link=The Road to Reality}}
* {{cite book|author1=P.A. Tipler |author2=G. Mosca | title=Physics for Scientists and Engineers: With Modern Physics| publisher=W.H. Freeman and Co|edition=6th| year=2008| isbn=978-1-4292-0265-7}}
* {{cite book|author1=P.M. Whelan |author2=M.J. Hodgeson | title=Essential Principles of Physics| publisher=John Murray|edition=2nd| year=1978 | isbn=978-0-7195-3382-2}}
{{Refend}}

== External links ==
{{wikiquote}}
* [http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_converter/magnetic-field-strength.html Magnetic Field Strength Converter]
* [http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ElectromagneticForce.html Electromagnetic Force] – from Eric Weisstein's World of Physics

{{Fundamental interactions}}
{{Branches of physics}}
{{Magnetic states}}
{{Authority control}}

[[Category:Electromagnetism| ]]
[[Category:Electrodynamics| ]]
[[Category:Fundamental interactions]]

Wikipedia talk:Article titles

2023-07-03T00:16:47Z

Mover of molehills: /* WP:CONCISE. Should "estimated" be added to most list article titles? */ Added my feedback

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== [[Encyclopedia of Clothing and Fashion]] based page names ==

We have a missing article list at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Encyclopedia of Clothing and Fashion]] based on topic names from the [[Encyclopedia of Clothing and Fashion]], with odd formulations such as [[Africa, North: History of Dress]]; [[Ancient World: History of Dress]]. It seems like these ''Missing encyclopedic articles'' contains many improper page names. I think perhaps the ''Missing encyclopedic articles'' needs pruning and purging of bad page names? These names are showing up at [[WP:AFC/R]] for redirect creation -- [[Special:Contributions/64.229.90.172|64.229.90.172]] ([[User talk:64.229.90.172|talk]]) 19:45, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
:I would suggest striking the unsuitable titles using <nowiki><s>bad entry</s></nowiki>. Some just are using the wrong kind of style, but others might be OK as redirects. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 02:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

== [[WP:CONCISE]]. Should "estimated" be added to most list article titles? ==

[[WP:CONCISE]]. See RFC here:
*[[Talk:Estimated percent of households with guns by country#RfC about name of article and content]]
Someone recently added "Estimated" to that article title. I find that many list/table articles explain in the article and/or article references about the level of estimation involved, and how the data was acquired.

Does it really need to be in the article title too? The current article there, and its references, already explains that they are estimates. The main reference there (at the reference site) explains their sourcing. Many data points in list articles are based on surveys, for example. Editors can add as much detail as they want in an article about the reference methodology. We need to keep article titles shorter if we want them to be understood in the truncated titles that major search engines present to readers. See my previous talk section here. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 02:26, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
: I think it rather goes without saying that percentages of anything at a national level will always be "estimated". [[User:BD2412|'''''BD2412''''']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 04:12, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

:"Someone", being me, did not make the argument presented here. Nowhere will you find that I made such a suggestion. Instead, where articles are presenting data this is largely gathered via surveys and proxies, it should note that they are estimates in the title, as many similar articles already do. The vast majority of 'list' articles are ''not'' based on estimates - that is trivially verifiable and obvious. Adding 'estimated' to list article titles where the data presented is not estimated would be bonkers. It's worth pointing out that before I worked on the article, it nowhere stated that the data presented was estimated. We aren't supposed to assume that general readers know that it 'goes without saying' that X, Y, or Z obtain under some circumstances, and not under others. cheers. [[User:Anastrophe|anastrophe]], [[User talk:Anastrophe|an editor he is.]] 06:50, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
::Whether it is many or most list articles that are estimated is not my point. My point is that [[WP:CONCISE]] encourages shorter article names. You can't put everything in the article title as [[WP:CONCISE]], and its longer article, points out. Many list articles start with a table of countries, states, etc.. Then more and more details are filled in by editors over time concerning the references, estimation methods, questions from notable sources on the quality of those sources, etc.. Few articles start out perfect. See the previous talk section I was involved in here:
::[[#Google limits length of titles in search results. Big difference in page views]]
::--[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 12:30, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
:::"{{tq|Whether it is many or most list articles that are estimated is not my point.}}" yet the title of this section you created suggests that that is the argument. The majority of 'list' articles are ''not'' lists of estimates; again, this is trivially verifiable. Where an article's content is based on surveys and proxies, then it's appropriate - it's misleading to title an article as an emphatic when it's not. Filling in ''more'' data in a table doesn't change that the values are still estimates. In the case of firearm ownership, the estimates range from 'maybe close' to 'wildy disparate'. This inquiry should be retitled, since it's misleading, it should instead be something along the lines of "Should "estimated" be added to articles where it's not obvious to the general reader that the data isn't strict?" cheers. [[User:Anastrophe|anastrophe]], [[User talk:Anastrophe|an editor he is.]] 23:11, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
:::I agree the word "estimated" should not be in most list article titles. Estimation can be addressed in the body of the article itself. [[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 14:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
*{{tq|Most}}? Absolutely not. Most list articles are not even numerical, where the word "estimated" wouldn't be appropriate at all. In this one article title? Possibly. Discuss it on the article talk page, and reach a consensus. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron]][[User talk:Jayron32|''32'']] 14:14, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''' , even if they are not exhaustive. Wikipedia is a work in progress. — [[User:Xaosflux|xaosflux]] [[User talk:Xaosflux|Talk]] 14:27, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''Well''', actually, [[User:Anastrophe]]'s point is well taken. First of all, to clarify -- it's a little obscured -- almost all lists are like "Mountains over X meters tall in Antarctica" etc. There's no guessing there. Second of all, when a list ''is'' based on estimates, it's taking away crucial info from the reader, almost misleading the reader you could say I guess (I woudn't go that far myself) to not say so. And no, some non-negligable number of readers are ''not'' going to suss right off that of course the data is estimated.

:Well taken, but still... the ''main'' function of a title is to get the reader where she wants to be, and no more than that. I don't think anyone is going to find "Number of frogs in Lake Oneida" confusing where "Estimated number of frogs in Lake Oneida" wouldn't be, ''for navigation purposes''. Either is going to get them to the article they want. By all means the fact that its estimated should be made clear right off, first sentence or soon after. If the article doesn't do that, the solution is to add it, not change the title. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 00:04, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
::I am so used to editing "by country" and "by state" data lists that I don't see much else. There are thousands of them, and many are based on estimated data. So that is what I am referring to.
::--[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 04:08, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''' to the general question. If [[WP:RS]] generally add qualifiers like "estimated" to specific lists, these may need qualifiers here as well. In many such lists, the data quality will vary greatly from country to country, which will need to be explained in the lead, but usually I would not expect the title to be sufficient to understand the data quality issues. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 08:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''Yes''', unless we can say with a high degree of confidence that we have the correct rounded value. Our readers would generally expect rounding when handling big numbers, but we should not give them a false sense of correctness. [[User:Animal lover 666|Animal lover]] [[User talk:Animal lover 666||666|]] 13:29, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
**Per Herostratus: "By all means the fact that its estimated should be made clear right off, first sentence or soon after. If the article doesn't do that, the solution is to add it, not change the title." Plus some list articles have non-estimated values for some countries, but have estimated values for others. Or highly accurate estimated values for some countries, and much less accurate estimates for other countries. And many other variations. Putting "estimated" in the title does not present a full picture. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 23:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''' to "estimated" in titles. Lots of statistics are estimates. It doesn't add anything significant without saying who made the estimate or how it was made. That's for the article body, not the title. The search {{search link|intitle:"estimated"}} only gives 26 hits and most of them are redirects or terms with "Estimated" in the name. There are a grand total of two article titles using "estimated" to say the content is estimated: [[Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country]] and [[List of estimated best-selling Italian music artists]]. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 00:29, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''' it just needs to be explained in the text. Also the word "known" does not have to be in the title. After all we only write about what is ''known''. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 02:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''' Unless it is especially not obvious, I would not add ''estimated''. Even if it was exact when written, it will be wrong soon after, and we wouldn't go changing the title for that reason. We would not name an article ''Percent of households with guns by country on June 28th, 2023'' for example, though it might be more accurate. I believe we are allowed to round, even if [[WP:RS]] have more (too) exact values. [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 21:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''No''', although for the record, I think that it would sound better to say "Proportion of..." rather than "Percent of..." in articles such as the one referenced above. I would reserve "estimated" for situations in which there is a particularly high degree of uncertainty. [[User:Mover of molehills|Mover of molehills]][[User talk:Mover of molehills|move me]] 00:16, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

== Correct title for a planned article to avoid ambiguity ==

I'm planning an article (not yet even ready for a sandbox draft) about an incident involving an airplane flight in New York City on September 11th, 2018. The flight in question was from New Delhi, India, and scheduled to land at JFK, ultimately being lucky enough to be able to make a safe landing in Newark (a suburb of New York City across the New Jersey border). The flight involved is Air India Flight 101; unfortunately, this airline and number match [[Air India Flight 101|a more notable aircrash in 1966]]. What should the title of the new article be? [[User:Animal lover 666|Animal lover]] [[User talk:Animal lover 666||666|]] 14:10, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
:[[WP:DAB|Disambiguate]] the lesser known flight (the 2018 one) with the parenthetical (2018). Its full title should be [[Air India Flight 101 (2018)]]. You would then leave a [[WP:HATNOTE|hatnote]] at the top of the ''other'' article directing people to the lesser known flight <nowiki>{{for|the 2018 flight|Air India Flight 101 (2018)}}</nowiki>. I hope that helps. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron]][[User talk:Jayron32|''32'']] 17:18, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

== Editorial change: replace Rhode Island example ==

Since the state changed its official name at some point, and thus the name referred to in the example is historical, consider replacing the example with one that doesn't need a potentially confusing clarification. Ideas: [[Llanfairpwllgwyngyll]] rather than its longer variants, many examples of Foo rather than Republic/Kingdom of Foo, [[Turing Award]] rather than [[ACM A. M. Turing Award]]. [[Special:Contributions/73.223.72.200|73.223.72.200]] ([[User talk:73.223.72.200|talk]]) 22:50, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

== Please look at this RM ==

A few more editors with a good understanding of WP title decision-making weighing in here would be good for the community: [[Talk:Mike_McCartney_(footballer)#Requested_move_6_May_2023]]. Thanks. --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 06:29, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

== I want to change the title of my article in progress ==

But how? Help, please? [[User:Tcflightyears93|TCFLightyears93]] ([[User talk:Tcflightyears93|group chat]] / [[Special:Contributions/Tcflightyears93|contributions]]) 18:31, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
:{{ping|Tcflightyears93}} If you're talking about Duck Life, you should be able to click on the "Move" link near the top of the page, and then give it whatever new title you like, and click on the "Move page" button. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 18:47, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
::Thanks a million! [[User:Tcflightyears93|TCFLightyears93]] ([[User talk:Tcflightyears93|group chat]] / [[Special:Contributions/Tcflightyears93|contributions]]) 18:50, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

== Name for Brewster, your thoughts needed ==

There is an ongoing discussion at [[Talk:Owen Brewster]] about his common name. Please comment.--[[User:Namiba]] 17:08, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

== RFC on stadium naming policy ==

{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1690621283}}

For a long time with regard to the name of sports stadiums with sponsored names, it has generally been an unwritten rule on sports stadium articles (particularly in UK football and rugby related ones) that these names are not used for the title unless the stadium has never had a non-sponsored name to avoid Wikipedia being seen to endorse commercial entities. Henceforth, I wish to formalise this by proposing that a section be added to the Article Titles policy stating:
*"Where stadiums and arenas have been named after a sponsor, the original non-sponsored name shall always be used for the title (regardless of [[WP:COMMONNAME]]) unless the stadium has never had a non-sponsored name in its history." '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the King!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 08:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', as this would have plenty of laughable results like [[FedExField]]→[[Jack Kent Cooke Stadium]] (although it's debatable whether FedExField or FedEx Field is the common name). There's no reason for stadiums to be an exception to COMMONNAME and [[WP:NAMECHANGES]]. [[User:Star Garnet|Star Garnet]] ([[User talk:Star Garnet|talk]]) 09:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''Support in principle''', but no support for hard inflexible wording. Support recognising that sponsored names are a version of promotion, and that collusion by the commercial media to promote sponsored names renders the commercial media non independent. To avoid the insidious pervasive commercial pressure, give more weight to noncommercial media. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 09:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
*:I assume the premise is that there is no COMMONNAME due to inadequate quality sources. COMMONNAME is the first preference. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 11:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' making a policy. Use the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] when there is doubt. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 09:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. If a sponsored name is the most common name it is the proper title, period. That's fundamental and general Wikipedia policy that applies to everything. The unwritten convention has long been a violation of titling policy and should never have be "enforced". Trying to do that is actually far more POV-pushing than just using the common sponsored name. It not only should be written into the policy, it should be stopped permanently. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 15:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' This is tough policy to endorse because there are so many different scenarios with stadium names. This is best left up being handled on a case by case basis by using [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:31, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - First, I think the premise of the proposal (that there is an “unwritten rule”) is inaccurate. Yes, there ''are'' times when we ignore an official name change (and thus continue to use an “old” pre-sponsorship name for our article title)… but that is '''not''' due to any objection to the commercial nature of the new (sponsored) name, but because the old name continues to be in COMMON usage (''despite'' the official name change). So… as others have said, leave this to WP:COMMONNAME. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 13:48, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
*I see where the wind is going for [[WP:SNOW]] so I will formally '''Withdraw''' the RFC [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Reasons_and_ways_to_end_RFCs according to the rules here]. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the King!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 15:34, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Since it doesn't say ''Closed'', I add my oppose. I suppose I disagree with sponsored names, but that isn't the question here. [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 21:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

== Clarifying titles on articles about words ==

Generally, [[WP:NOTDICTIONARY|Wikipedia is not a dictionary]]. However, sometimes it does have articles about words (as distinct from the concepts they represent). Currently there's [[Talk:Cisgender#Lack of focus and violation of LEAD|a discussion on Talk:Cisgender]] about the problem that – despite the short description "Gender identity descriptor" – some editors are editing the lead to discuss the concept, while the rest of the article is about the word as such. {{ping|Mathglot}} tells me I should bring my own suggestion here, because it may have wider applicability:
:May I throw another hat (=idea) in the ring with the rest? Consistently adding "(word)" to articles about words not concepts, might be a good way to indicate the real topic to both readers and editors. It would also make for a quick way to point out misunderstanding: "The article [[Cisgender (word)]] discusses that ''word'' (e.g. its definition[s], etymology, usage, history) rather than the concept it represents." – repeat elsewhere with only the article named changing.{{pb}}Alternatively, make that sentence a banner or hat using <nowiki>{{SUBST:FULLPAGENAME}}</nowiki>.
The first part seems to me consistent with other titles that add "(book)" or "(film)" where, absent those additions, the title might be taken as referring to a person, place, or event. In this case, I am suggesting it even though there is no other ''article'' to disambiguate it from, just to reduce misunderstanding of the referent. Broadly, the same might apply to any other meta-references besides words, to satisfy [[WP:PRECISION]].{{pb}}As for the second part: the more general template is: <nowiki>{{</nowiki>'''about'''|''what it IS about''|''some other usage''|''where to find that other usage''}} – [[User:.Raven|<big>'''.'''</big>Raven]] [[User talk:.Raven| '''''.'''talk'']] 19:41, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
: I think your suggestion about adding a [[WP:PARENDIS|disambiguator]] like <code>(word)</code> (or 'term', or 'expression', depending on the article) could be very helpful in articles about words. The vast majority of our 7M articles are about concepts not words, and so it's not surprising that the very few exceptions cause confusion among editors, and this would be a helpful modification to the [[WP:Article title]] policy that will help prevent that. The article ''[[LGBT]]'', for example, is entirely about the word, its history, evolution, variants, and so on; despite the hatnote and italic title, there have still been numerous good-faith attempts to alter it to discuss "LGBT" as a concept. These edits are essentially due to a misunderstanding of the [[use–mention distinction]] on the part of these good-faith editors, but that is hardly surprising, given the subtlety of the topic. Following Raven's suggestion at the [[Cisgender]] article would result in a title of "''Cisgender'' (word)", which would likely avoid most of the confusion. And if and when it was time to change the focus of the article from word to concept, the title would help clarify the situation, and require a title change, as well it should. I support this proposal. I think that the article title policy should be modified to add wording about this. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 21:58, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

One of the biggest misunderstandings in Wikipedia is the false dichotomy that regarding this there are only two things:
*Topic that inherently exists, and words are merely a way to give it a name
*Exceptions where the article is clearly and flatly only about a word

While the title of the page and section sort of hide it, [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary#When a word or phrase itself may be an encyclopedic subject]] explains (with examples) that many topics exist in the "gray area" in between. Please read...It's just two short paragraphs and makes my main point here. It gives several examples where the word somewhat "creates" the topic by grouping things that don't otherwise have a common name. And I think that this is a very important area to gain recognition and handle. One way or the other, I think that the end result is that these articles need to recognize that they are covering the ''term'' and usually not the place to cover that which is created/grouped/renamed by the term. ''North8000'' ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 20:38, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
:> "{{tq|... these articles need to recognize that they are covering the ''term'' and usually not the place to cover that which is created/grouped/renamed by the term.}}"{{pb}}Yes, thank you! I would amend this only to add "editors of" in front of that, to clarify who can/should ''recognize'' that.{{pb}}And my proposal was meant to '''help''' editors (and readers) recognize that. – [[User:.Raven|<big>'''.'''</big>Raven]] [[User talk:.Raven| '''''.'''talk'']] 21:43, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
: I agree with North8000 about a false dichotomy. In a way, I think the false impression of a dichotomy is the result of looking at snapshots in time, rather than an evolution, which is a better representation of what happens with certain topics that start out as a neologism and eventually evolve into a well known term with plenty of discussion about the concept. It's not an either-or, it depends when you look at it.
: The article "[[Cisgender]]" is a good example. In the 2000s, the word started to be '''[[use–mention distinction|mentioned]]''' in blogs such as [http://www.eminism.org/interchange/2002/20020607-wmstl.html this 2002 post] about ''cisgender'' Emi Koyama's blog, and gradually became adopted and '''[[use–mention distinction|used]]''' in context, such as in [[Julia Serano]]'s ''[[Whipping Girl]]''. For quite some time, that's all they were, mentions or uses as an adjective in context, but nothing like a discussion about the concept that would pass GNG. Since, then, there's been more coverage; the last article section on normativity and privilege seems to have some of that (to the extent that the refs are not just dictionary defintions); whether the concept of "cisgender" now has enough in-depth coverage to be considered [[WP:Notable]] for a [[WP:PAGEDECIDE|standalone article]] is a subject for discussion at [[Talk:Cisgender]] and not here.
: But the point is, that the rare neologism that deserves an article about the word itself, as described in the policy section that North8000 draws attention to, often evolve, and ultimately the concept may become notable as well, and it could either evolve to become a separate article, or more likely in most cases, it becomes the new topic, with the previous content being encapsulated in a new, #Terminology section. Until that happens, an article about a word needs some way to highlight that the word is the topic: the content of the [[WP:LEADSENTENCE]] is one way to do that, the italic title per [[MOS:WAW]] is another way, and .Raven's proposal would be a very helpful addition, and likely would be more effective than either of the other two methods. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 23:09, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I think that one thing that fuels the problem is the widely accepted mantra that Wikipedia articles can't be about words. While that is a useful mantra most of time (because we ''aren't'' a dictionary) it obscures the fact that there are times when we need to recognize that the article should be (only) about the term. Most of the time we fail at that, partially because the title taken literally is about a real world topic, albeit inherently though a POV lens and usually a grouping created by the lens of the term. And of course, sometime politics affects whether or not we succeed. An article which does a really good job at this is [[Gay agenda]] . Although the topic is prima facie about gay related initiatives, the article recognizes that it needs to be about the term and is not the place to cover gay related initiatives, and successfully limits itself to coverage of the term.

So I think that the proposal here is a step in the right direction.
Sincerely, ''North8000'' ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 01:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
: I had forgotten about [[Gay agenda]]; it's a really good example of this, and you're right—it does a much better job than most "word" articles at sticking to the topic. Nevertheless, I'd excuse an editor (especially a newer one) from diving in and adding material to the lead that wasn't about the word—and the proposal under discussion would help to avoid that. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 07:04, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

== slang or casual usage? ==

It seems to me that in some cases, what might be considered a [[WP:COMMONNAME]] is actually more slang or casual usage. Right now, I am thinking of how to reply to a name change proposal. I believe we should not necessarily use slang names, unless they are especially common. [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 21:54, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
:
:Which proposal? or at least an example? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 22:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
::
::I was hoping to ask generally, but it is this one: [[Talk:Subnetwork#Requested_move_28_June_2023]]. [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 01:39, 29 June 2023 (UTC)