Wikipedia - User contributions [en]

Palmarian Catholic Church

2010-03-22T18:43:20Z

Papphase: /* Criticism */ has anyone a source for this reconciliation of revaz? i couldn't find anything

[[Image:cathedralelpalmar.jpg|thumb|right|The cathedral of Palmar de Troya]]

The '''Christian Palmarian Church of the Carmelites of the [[Veil of Veronica|Holy Face]]''' ({{lang-es|Iglesia Cristiana Palmariana de los Carmelitas de la Santa Faz}}), commonly called the '''Palmarian Catholic Church''' (''Iglesia Católica Palmariana''), is a [[Schism (religion)|schismatic]] [[Roman Catholic Church|Catholic]] church with its own pope, [[Manuel Corral]], called Pope Peter II. It is often considered to be part of the [[conclavism|conclavist]] movement.

==History==
===Origins===

The origins of the Palmarian movement lay in the apparitions of the [[Virgin Mary]] reported at [[Palmar de Troya]] from March 1968. Four [[Spanish people|Spanish]] schoolgirls stated they saw her by a little tree on a piece of farmland called La Alcaparrosa. Many people came to witness the supposed apparitions, and a number of [[miracle]]s similar to those at [[Our Lady of Fátima|Fátima]], [[Garabandal]] and [[Međugorje]] were said to have occurred. The seers had many supporters, including priests. Several other people reported visions at the site, including [[Clemente Domínguez y Gómez]], an insurance broker from [[Seville]]. He gradually became the "principal seer".<ref>Scott Corrales, [http://wintersteel.homestead.com/Two_Popes.html A Tale of Two Popes]. ''Inexplicata, A Journal of Hispanic Ufology''. Retrieved 2008-07-01.</ref> The original seers were forgotten, their visions dismissed by the local bishop.<ref>Robert Duncan, [http://robertstevenduncan.blogspot.com/2007/07/spains-pope-gregory-xvii-profile-of.html Spain's Pope Gregory XVII: A Profile Of Madness.] Retrieved 2008-07-01.</ref> He claimed that the [[Mary, the mother of Jesus|Virgin Mary]] had given him instructions to rid the [[Roman Catholic Church]] of "[[heresy]] and progressivism", and of [[Communism]].

In 1975, Domínguez formed a new religious order, the '''Order of Carmelites of the Holy Face''' (or '''Carmelite Order of the Holy Face'''), which claimed to be "faithful to the holy [[Pope Paul VI]]". The order did not have official Church approval, and it claimed that Paul VI (who is still honoured by Palmarians as a martyr-pope) was detained in the Vatican by evil conspiring cardinals. The order was initially run by laymen, but supported sacramentally by priests from [[Spain]], [[Portugal]] and the [[United States]].

===Consecration of bishops===

To be guaranteed access to the sacraments, Domínguez's group needed its own bishops. Domínguez wrote a letter to [[Marcel Lefebvre]] and asked him to consecrate him. But Lefebvre did send 3 of his priests and in 1976, the (now laicised) Swiss priest [[Maurice Revaz]] (who had taught Canon Law at the [[Society of Saint Pius X]] (SSPX) seminary of Archbishop [[Marcel Lefebvre]] in Ecône) persuaded the elderly [[Vietnam]]ese Roman Catholic Archbishop [[Ngo Dinh Thuc]] <ref>[http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bngo.html Catholic Hierarchy]</ref> of the authenticity of the apparitions.<ref>Oskar Schmitt: Ein würdiger Verwalter im Weinberg unseres Herrn Jesus Christus: Bischof Pierre Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc, Norderstedt 2006, Books on Demand, ISBN 3-8334-5385-0</ref> Archbishop Thuc was chosen because he was a [[papal legate]]. Accepting the mystical message of the seer-mystics, the Archbishop believed that he was called by the Virgin Mary to raise two of the order's members (Domínguez and a lawyer named Manuel Alonso Corral) and three of the priests associated with the group to the rank of bishop.

He did this without obtaining the mandatory authorisation from the [[Holy See]]. The Archbishop also ordained some laymen to the priesthood. Thuc and the five men he consecrated as bishops were subsequently excommunicated by Paul VI. Thuc subsequently cut his ties with the group and was reconciled with the Church authorities.

===Claim to the papacy===

Following the death of [[Pope Paul VI]] in 1978, Domínguez set up his own [[holy see]] in Seville, claiming that he had been mystically crowned pope by [[Jesus Christ]] in a vision. He took the papal name "Gregory XVII", and appointed his own [[cardinal (Catholicism)|cardinals]]. By these actions, the "Carmelites of the [[Holy Face]]" evolved into the Palmarian Catholic Church. Some of Catholics previously associated with the Carmelites left the group as a result.

Uniquely, the popes of the Palmarian Church do not claim to be the titular [[Bishop of Rome]]. Rather, they claim that [[Christ]] transferred the position of Patriarch of the West and Supreme Pontiff to the new episcopal see of Palmar de Troya. This is a departure from traditional Roman Catholic doctrine, which identifies the papacy with the Bishop of Rome. Catholic teaching also holds that personal revelations are not binding on the Church as a whole.

As his capacity as Pope Gregory XVII, Domínguez called the Roman Catholic Church a false church and declared the nominal Pope [[John Paul II]] [[excommunicated]]. In addition Pope Pope Gregory XVII also canonized [[Francisco Franco]], [[Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer]] and [[Christopher Columbus]] and declared Paul VI a [[martyr saint]].

===Peter II===

Domínguez died in March 2005 whilst administering the Palmarian Easter Liturgy, supposedly while experiencing a vision. His church later declared him to be Pope Saint Gregory XVII, the Very Great. [[Manuel Alonso Corral]] named in 2000 by Clemente as his successor succeeded him as Pope [[Antipope Peter II|Peter II]].There was no Palmarian conclave for this election.

Despite the name 'Peter II', Corral does not claim to be 'Petrus Romanus', the last Pope, according to the controversial [[Prophecy of the Popes]] attributed to [[St. Malachy]]: he does not claim to be the Bishop (titular or otherwise) of Rome, and has no personal ties to that see.

'Peter II' has no claims to visions but has confirmed that the Anti Christ was born in the year 2000. The Palmarian doctrine regarding the anti christ indicates that the anti christ will mock Christ and imitate him by making a public appearance at the age of 12 and begin his public life when he is 30 years old (source Palmarian Council)

===Present day===
The Palmarian Church claims to have 60 clergy (all of whom are [[bishop]]s), 70 [[nun]]s and 2,000 followers. It has chapels in Ireland, [[UK|Britain]], Australia, New Zealand and [[Latin America]].

Since 1983 the Palmarian Church has drastically reformed its rites and its liturgy, which previously had been styled in the [[Tridentine]] form. The Palmarian liturgy was reduced to almost solely the Eucharistic words of [[consecration]]. The See of Palmar de Troya has also declared the [[real presence]] of the [[Virgin Mary]] in the sacred [[Eucharist|host]] and the bodily assumption into heaven of [[Joseph of Nazareth|St. Joseph]] to be dogmas of the Catholic faith. By 2000, they had their own version of the Bible, revised by Domínguez on claimed prophetic authority.

The Archidonian Palmarian group (Archidonia, Malaga, Spain) formed in 2000 was due to the expulsion of 16 cardinals and five nuns. They were expelled by Clemente for diverse reasons. The predominant reason for the expulsions was due to Clementes belief that there was "a church within a church" within the Palmarian church This group according to Clemente were planning to overthrow him. Others were expelled for an alleged plot to assassinate Clemente. Only one cardinal, Cyril Maria, was expelled due to the new edition of the Bible. The group in Archidona, Spain has since almost disbanded and there remains four or five. They presently call themselves "independent" Palmarian priests. They believe that the see of Peter is vacant.

==Criticism==

Controversial practices which are not part of traditional Catholic devotion have been reported in the Palmarian Church since its foundation. In the early 1990s, several priests were treated in local hospitals after apparently undergoing amateur [[body piercing]]. Domínguez admitted to having sex with nuns, and had previously been active in Seville's [[homosexual]] community.<ref>Robert Duncan, [http://robertstevenduncan.blogspot.com/2007/07/spains-pope-gregory-xvii-profile-of.html Spain's Pope Gregory XVII: A Profile Of Madness.] Retrieved 2008-07-01.</ref>

It has been claimed that Domínguez used [[self harm]] to give himself the appearance of the [[stigmata]].[http://www.belowtopsecret.com/thread306649/pg1]

Between 1978 and 1983, many adherents left the Palmarian Church, including the Palmarian Bishop [[Maurice Revaz]].  A similar case was Alfred Seiwert-Fleige, who was ordained a priest by Archbishop Thuc and consecrated a Palmarian bishop around 1980. He left the Palmarian Church in 1981.

==Popes of the Palmarian Catholic Church==

Up the death of [[Pope Paul VI]] in 1978, Palmarian Catholics generally accept the conventional succession of Roman Pontiffs.

{| class="wikitable"
! width="15%" | Pontificate
! width="5%" | Portrait
! width="25%" | Name English · Regnal (Latin & Spanish)
! width="15%" | Personal name
! width="10%" | Place of birth
! width="30%" | Notes
|- valign="top"
| 15 August 1978 – 22 March 2005 (26 years)
|
| '''[[Clemente Domínguez y Gómez|St. Gregory XVII the Very Great]]''' '''Papa GREGORIUS Septimus Decimus''' '''Santo Papa Gregorio XVII, el muy Grande'''
| Clemente Domínguez y Gómez
| [[Seville]], [[Spanish State|Spain]]
|
|- valign="top"
| 22 March 2005 – present ({{age|2005|3|22}} years)
|
| '''[[Manuel Corral|Peter II]]''' '''Papa PETRUS Secundus''' Papa Pedro II
| Manuel Alonso Corral
|
| There was no Palmarian conclave to elect Corral, as Domínguez had named him as successor in 2000.
|}

==Notes==

''The original version of this article was adapted from "A million gather for Pope's 'last words' to Spain" by Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid.''

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
* [http://www.palmardetroya.org Support Website for persons adversley affected by this religious group ]
 [http://www.palmardetroya.org Source of apostolic letters of Peter II ]
{{commonscat}}
*[http://www.geocities.com/palmardetroyaarchidona/1ingles.htm Site of dissident Palmarian bishops operating in] [[Archidona]], [[Málaga (province)|Málaga]], Spain.
*[http://www.belowtopsecret.com/thread306649/pg1 Information in English. Site by former Palmarians who left the community. ''Testimonies'']
* [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050323/ai_n13475286 Obituary: Clemente Domnguez Gomez]. In The ''London Independent'', March 23, 2005, by Elizabeth Nash. Retrieved 2008-07-01.
*[http://homepage.eircom.net/~palmardetroya/rules.htm ''Rules governing the followers of the Palmarian church'']

[[Category:Independent Catholic Churches]]
[[Category:Religious organizations established in 1975]]
[[Category:Sevilla province]]
[[Category:Christianity in Spain]]
[[Category:Christian denominations, unions, and movements established in the 20th century]]

[[ca:Església Catòlica Palmariana]]
[[de:Palmarianisch-Katholische Kirche]]
[[es:Iglesia cristiana palmariana]]
[[fr:Église chrétienne palmarienne des Carmélites de la Sainte-Face]]
[[it:Chiesa Cattolica Palmariana]]
[[pl:Kościół Palmariański]]

User:Wo st 01/Wembley-Goal

2010-03-11T15:43:09Z

Papphase: /* Klärung */

Als '''Wembley-Tor''' wird im deutschen [[Fußball]] ein Lattentreffer bezeichnet, bei dem der Ball von der Unterkante der Torlatte nach unten springt und dabei die Torlinie möglicherweise nicht überschreitet und anschließend wieder ins Spielfeld springt. Nach derartigen Spielszenen ist es oft umstritten, ob der Ball im Tor war oder nicht.

== Geschichte ==
=== WM-Finale 1966 ===
Entstanden ist der Begriff durch den umstrittenen Treffer von [[Geoff Hurst]] zum 3:2 (Endstand 4:2 n.V.) in der 101. Minute des [[Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft 1966#Finale|WM-Endspiel von 1966]] zwischen der [[Englische Fußballnationalmannschaft|Englischen Fußballnationalmannschaft]] und der [[Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft|Deutschen Fußballnationalmannschaft]] im alten [[London]]er [[Wembley-Stadion]] am [[30. Juli]] [[1966]]. Nachdem Hurst den deutschen [[Torwart]] [[Hans Tilkowski]] überwand, entschied der Schweizer [[Fußballschiedsrichter|Schiedsrichter]] [[Gottfried Dienst]] nach Rücksprache mit dem sowjetischen [[Linienrichter]] [[Tofiq Bəhrəmov]] auf Tor. Die Kommunikation erfolgte nur mittels Zeichensprache, da Bəhrəmov nur [[Aserbaidschanische Sprache|Aserbaidschanisch]] und [[Russische Sprache|Russisch]] sprach und die beiden Schiedsrichter so keine gemeinsame Sprache zur Verständigung hatten.

Für das Ergebnis des Spiels ist das Tor insofern von Bedeutung, als Deutschland nach dem Tor seine Abwehr öffnete und England dann noch in den Schlusssekunden ein weiteres Tor (bei dem sich jedoch schon Zuschauer auf dem Spielfeld befanden) erzielte, so dass der Endstand letztendlich 4:2 lautete.

=== Nachspiel ===
Der Linienrichter räumte ein, nicht genau gesehen zu haben, ob der Ball im Tor war; er habe aber aus der Reaktion der Beteiligten (Jubel der Engländer, Zurückhaltung der Deutschen) den Schluss gezogen, dass ein Tor gefallen sein musste. Dies stimmt jedoch nicht mit seinen Memoiren überein: Dort schrieb er, er sei vollkommen überzeugt gewesen, dass der Ball hinter der Linie war, da er das Netz berührte. Das Auftreffen des Balles auf den Boden habe er nicht gesehen, da er sich auf die jubelnden Engländer konzentriert habe. Eine Netzberührung des Balles dürfte jedoch die Exklusivmeinung von Bəhrəmov sein, selbst in England wurde diese Variante nie diskutiert. Auch die Fernsehaufnahmen zeigen deutlich das Gegenteil.

Direkt nach dem Auftreffen des Balles auf den Boden drehte der englische Stürmer [[Roger Hunt]] jubelnd ab; danach wurde der Ball von [[Wolfgang Weber (Fußballspieler)|Wolfgang Weber]] über das Tor ins Aus geköpft. Hunt erklärte, wenn er nicht völlig sicher gewesen wäre, dass der Ball hinter der Linie sei, hätte er ihn ins Tor gedrückt.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/4895404.stm ''World Cup 1966 flashback'']. BBC sports</ref>

[[Bundespräsident (Deutschland)|Bundespräsident]] [[Heinrich Lübke]] handelte sich in Deutschland breite Kritik in der Öffentlichkeit ein, als er nach der WM 1966 sagte: „Der Ball war drin.“. In England wurde dieses Tor weit weniger als in Deutschland diskutiert, der Begriff Wembley-Tor beziehungsweise Wembley Goal wird dort im Sprachgebrauch nicht verwendet. Man spricht dort schlicht vom „dritten Tor“.

=== Klärung ===
Es war lange unklar, ob der Ball hinter der Torlinie war oder nicht. In den 1990er Jahren kam eine von Ingenieuren der [[Universität Oxford]] erarbeitete Studie zu dem Schluss, der Ball sei nicht im Tor gewesen. Auch andere zeigten Studien anhand von Fotos und Filmaufnahmen, dass der Ball auf der Torlinie aufsprang, da man hochgeschleuderten Kalk der Torlinie sehen kann. Eine Aufbereitung eines 35-mm-Films, der während des Spiels 1966 aufgenommen wurde, soll zeigen, dass der Ball weder während des Auftreffens an die Latte noch während seiner Flugphase vollständig die Torlinie überschritten hat. Die Kamera, die diese Bilder aufgenommen hatte, befand sich fast auf Höhe der Torauslinie, so dass zu erkennen ist, dass der Ball den kürzesten Weg zwischen Torlatte und Linie genommen hatte und auf dieser aufsprang. Diese Erkenntnisse wurden im Mai 2006 veröffentlicht. Die meisten Experten gehen heute sicher davon aus, dass der Ball die Torlinie nicht mit vollem Umfang überschritten hat.

== Technische Hilfsmittel ==
Da man bislang [[Videobeweis]]e im Fußball vermeiden will, wäre für viele Fußballprofis und andere Fußballexperten das einzige direkte technische Hilfsmittel, das sie zulassen würden, ein [[Computerchip]] im Ball, mit Hilfe dessen die Position des Balls genau bestimmt werden kann und dadurch entschieden werden kann, ob ein Tor erzielt wurde oder nicht. Viele Ballhersteller arbeiten schon seit mehreren Jahren an solch einer Möglichkeit. Ende 2007 stellte [[Adidas]] einen eben solchen Ball vor, der seit 2005 entwickelt wurde. Getestet wurde der Ball bei der [[FIFA-Klub-Weltmeisterschaft 2007|Klub-WM 2007]]. Das [[IFAB]] entschied sich jedoch im Frühjahr 2008 gegen jegliche neue technische Hilfsmittel,<ref>
{{internetquelle|autor=|hrsg=|url=http://www.focus.de/sport/fussball/fussball-fifa-regelhueter-der-fifa-lehnen-chip-ball-ab_aid_273161.html|titel=Regelhüter der FIFA lehnen Chip-Ball ab|werk=FOCUS Online|datum=8. März 2008|zugriff=16. August 2008|kommentar=|zitat=}}</ref> was möglicherweise sogar das endgültige Aus für diese Technologie bedeutet.<ref>{{internetquelle|autor=|hrsg=|url=http://futurezone.orf.at/it/stories/262288/|titel=Absage an "Chipball"|werk=ORF.at|datum=8. März 2008|zugriff=16. August 2008|kommentar=|zitat= ‚Ich glaube, das war das endgültige Aus‘, kommentierte Brian Barwick, der Chef des Englischen Fußballverbandes [FA], die IFAB-Haltung, strittige Torentscheidungen nicht durch technologische Neuheiten zu erleichtern.}}</ref>

== Weblinks ==
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeXWEVXhdUo Ein Videobeweis, dass der Ball nicht im Tor war (mit englischem Originalkommentar)]
* [http://www.cicero.de/97.php?ress_id=9&item=3181 Und ewig schmerzt das Wembley-Tor] von Lukas Hermsmeier auf Cicero Online

== Einzelnachweise ==
<references />

[[Kategorie:Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft 1966]]
[[Kategorie:Besonderes Fußballspiel]]
[[Kategorie:Schiedsrichterwesen]]
[[Kategorie:Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft]]
[[Kategorie:Englische Fußballnationalmannschaft]]
[[Kategorie:Sport (London)]]

[[fr:But de la 100e minute]]

User:Wo st 01/Wembley-Goal

2010-03-11T10:53:51Z

Papphase: /* Klärung */

Als '''Wembley-Tor''' wird im deutschen [[Fußball]] ein Lattentreffer bezeichnet, bei dem der Ball von der Unterkante der Torlatte nach unten springt und dabei die Torlinie möglicherweise nicht überschreitet und anschließend wieder ins Spielfeld springt. Nach derartigen Spielszenen ist es oft umstritten, ob der Ball im Tor war oder nicht.

== Geschichte ==
=== WM-Finale 1966 ===
Entstanden ist der Begriff durch den umstrittenen Treffer von [[Geoff Hurst]] zum 3:2 (Endstand 4:2 n.V.) in der 101. Minute des [[Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft 1966#Finale|WM-Endspiel von 1966]] zwischen der [[Englische Fußballnationalmannschaft|Englischen Fußballnationalmannschaft]] und der [[Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft|Deutschen Fußballnationalmannschaft]] im alten [[London]]er [[Wembley-Stadion]] am [[30. Juli]] [[1966]]. Nachdem Hurst den deutschen [[Torwart]] [[Hans Tilkowski]] überwand, entschied der Schweizer [[Fußballschiedsrichter|Schiedsrichter]] [[Gottfried Dienst]] nach Rücksprache mit dem sowjetischen [[Linienrichter]] [[Tofiq Bəhrəmov]] auf Tor. Die Kommunikation erfolgte nur mittels Zeichensprache, da Bəhrəmov nur [[Aserbaidschanische Sprache|Aserbaidschanisch]] und [[Russische Sprache|Russisch]] sprach und die beiden Schiedsrichter so keine gemeinsame Sprache zur Verständigung hatten.

Für das Ergebnis des Spiels ist das Tor insofern von Bedeutung, als Deutschland nach dem Tor seine Abwehr öffnete und England dann noch in den Schlusssekunden ein weiteres Tor (bei dem sich jedoch schon Zuschauer auf dem Spielfeld befanden) erzielte, so dass der Endstand letztendlich 4:2 lautete.

=== Nachspiel ===
Der Linienrichter räumte ein, nicht genau gesehen zu haben, ob der Ball im Tor war; er habe aber aus der Reaktion der Beteiligten (Jubel der Engländer, Zurückhaltung der Deutschen) den Schluss gezogen, dass ein Tor gefallen sein musste. Dies stimmt jedoch nicht mit seinen Memoiren überein: Dort schrieb er, er sei vollkommen überzeugt gewesen, dass der Ball hinter der Linie war, da er das Netz berührte. Das Auftreffen des Balles auf den Boden habe er nicht gesehen, da er sich auf die jubelnden Engländer konzentriert habe. Eine Netzberührung des Balles dürfte jedoch die Exklusivmeinung von Bəhrəmov sein, selbst in England wurde diese Variante nie diskutiert. Auch die Fernsehaufnahmen zeigen deutlich das Gegenteil.

Direkt nach dem Auftreffen des Balles auf den Boden drehte der englische Stürmer [[Roger Hunt]] jubelnd ab; danach wurde der Ball von [[Wolfgang Weber (Fußballspieler)|Wolfgang Weber]] über das Tor ins Aus geköpft. Hunt erklärte, wenn er nicht völlig sicher gewesen wäre, dass der Ball hinter der Linie sei, hätte er ihn ins Tor gedrückt.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/4895404.stm ''World Cup 1966 flashback'']. BBC sports</ref>

[[Bundespräsident (Deutschland)|Bundespräsident]] [[Heinrich Lübke]] handelte sich in Deutschland breite Kritik in der Öffentlichkeit ein, als er nach der WM 1966 sagte: „Der Ball war drin.“. In England wurde dieses Tor weit weniger als in Deutschland diskutiert, der Begriff Wembley-Tor beziehungsweise Wembley Goal wird dort im Sprachgebrauch nicht verwendet. Man spricht dort schlicht vom „dritten Tor“.

=== Klärung ===
Es war lange noch unklar, ob der Ball hinter der Torlinie war oder nicht. Im den 1990er Jahren kam eine von Ingenieuren der [[Universität Oxford]] erarbeitete Studie zu dem Schluss, der Ball sei nicht im Tor gewesen. Auch andere zeigten Studien anhand von Fotos und Filmaufnahmen, dass der Ball auf der Torlinie aufsprang, da man hochgeschleuderten Kalk der Torlinie sehen kann. Eine Aufbereitung eines 35-mm-Films, der während des Spiels 1966 aufgenommen wurde, soll zeigen, dass der Ball weder während des Auftreffens an die Latte noch während seiner Flugphase vollständig die Torlinie überschritten hat. Die Kamera, die diese Bilder aufgenommen hatte, befand sich fast auf Höhe der Torauslinie, so dass zu erkennen ist, dass der Ball den kürzesten Weg zwischen Torlatte und Linie genommen hatte und auf dieser aufsprang. Diese Erkenntnisse wurden im Mai 2006 veröffentlicht. Die meisten Experten gehen heute sicher davon aus, dass der Ball die Torlinie nicht mit vollem Umfang überschritten hat.

== Technische Hilfsmittel ==
Da man bislang [[Videobeweis]]e im Fußball vermeiden will, wäre für viele Fußballprofis und andere Fußballexperten das einzige direkte technische Hilfsmittel, das sie zulassen würden, ein [[Computerchip]] im Ball, mit Hilfe dessen die Position des Balls genau bestimmt werden kann und dadurch entschieden werden kann, ob ein Tor erzielt wurde oder nicht. Viele Ballhersteller arbeiten schon seit mehreren Jahren an solch einer Möglichkeit. Ende 2007 stellte [[Adidas]] einen eben solchen Ball vor, der seit 2005 entwickelt wurde. Getestet wurde der Ball bei der [[FIFA-Klub-Weltmeisterschaft 2007|Klub-WM 2007]]. Das [[IFAB]] entschied sich jedoch im Frühjahr 2008 gegen jegliche neue technische Hilfsmittel,<ref>
{{internetquelle|autor=|hrsg=|url=http://www.focus.de/sport/fussball/fussball-fifa-regelhueter-der-fifa-lehnen-chip-ball-ab_aid_273161.html|titel=Regelhüter der FIFA lehnen Chip-Ball ab|werk=FOCUS Online|datum=8. März 2008|zugriff=16. August 2008|kommentar=|zitat=}}</ref> was möglicherweise sogar das endgültige Aus für diese Technologie bedeutet.<ref>{{internetquelle|autor=|hrsg=|url=http://futurezone.orf.at/it/stories/262288/|titel=Absage an "Chipball"|werk=ORF.at|datum=8. März 2008|zugriff=16. August 2008|kommentar=|zitat= ‚Ich glaube, das war das endgültige Aus‘, kommentierte Brian Barwick, der Chef des Englischen Fußballverbandes [FA], die IFAB-Haltung, strittige Torentscheidungen nicht durch technologische Neuheiten zu erleichtern.}}</ref>

== Weblinks ==
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeXWEVXhdUo Ein Videobeweis, dass der Ball nicht im Tor war (mit englischem Originalkommentar)]
* [http://www.cicero.de/97.php?ress_id=9&item=3181 Und ewig schmerzt das Wembley-Tor] von Lukas Hermsmeier auf Cicero Online

== Einzelnachweise ==
<references />

[[Kategorie:Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft 1966]]
[[Kategorie:Besonderes Fußballspiel]]
[[Kategorie:Schiedsrichterwesen]]
[[Kategorie:Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft]]
[[Kategorie:Englische Fußballnationalmannschaft]]
[[Kategorie:Sport (London)]]

[[fr:But de la 100e minute]]

User:Wo st 01/Wembley-Goal

2010-03-11T10:52:34Z

Papphase: /* Nachspiel */

Als '''Wembley-Tor''' wird im deutschen [[Fußball]] ein Lattentreffer bezeichnet, bei dem der Ball von der Unterkante der Torlatte nach unten springt und dabei die Torlinie möglicherweise nicht überschreitet und anschließend wieder ins Spielfeld springt. Nach derartigen Spielszenen ist es oft umstritten, ob der Ball im Tor war oder nicht.

== Geschichte ==
=== WM-Finale 1966 ===
Entstanden ist der Begriff durch den umstrittenen Treffer von [[Geoff Hurst]] zum 3:2 (Endstand 4:2 n.V.) in der 101. Minute des [[Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft 1966#Finale|WM-Endspiel von 1966]] zwischen der [[Englische Fußballnationalmannschaft|Englischen Fußballnationalmannschaft]] und der [[Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft|Deutschen Fußballnationalmannschaft]] im alten [[London]]er [[Wembley-Stadion]] am [[30. Juli]] [[1966]]. Nachdem Hurst den deutschen [[Torwart]] [[Hans Tilkowski]] überwand, entschied der Schweizer [[Fußballschiedsrichter|Schiedsrichter]] [[Gottfried Dienst]] nach Rücksprache mit dem sowjetischen [[Linienrichter]] [[Tofiq Bəhrəmov]] auf Tor. Die Kommunikation erfolgte nur mittels Zeichensprache, da Bəhrəmov nur [[Aserbaidschanische Sprache|Aserbaidschanisch]] und [[Russische Sprache|Russisch]] sprach und die beiden Schiedsrichter so keine gemeinsame Sprache zur Verständigung hatten.

Für das Ergebnis des Spiels ist das Tor insofern von Bedeutung, als Deutschland nach dem Tor seine Abwehr öffnete und England dann noch in den Schlusssekunden ein weiteres Tor (bei dem sich jedoch schon Zuschauer auf dem Spielfeld befanden) erzielte, so dass der Endstand letztendlich 4:2 lautete.

=== Nachspiel ===
Der Linienrichter räumte ein, nicht genau gesehen zu haben, ob der Ball im Tor war; er habe aber aus der Reaktion der Beteiligten (Jubel der Engländer, Zurückhaltung der Deutschen) den Schluss gezogen, dass ein Tor gefallen sein musste. Dies stimmt jedoch nicht mit seinen Memoiren überein: Dort schrieb er, er sei vollkommen überzeugt gewesen, dass der Ball hinter der Linie war, da er das Netz berührte. Das Auftreffen des Balles auf den Boden habe er nicht gesehen, da er sich auf die jubelnden Engländer konzentriert habe. Eine Netzberührung des Balles dürfte jedoch die Exklusivmeinung von Bəhrəmov sein, selbst in England wurde diese Variante nie diskutiert. Auch die Fernsehaufnahmen zeigen deutlich das Gegenteil.

Direkt nach dem Auftreffen des Balles auf den Boden drehte der englische Stürmer [[Roger Hunt]] jubelnd ab; danach wurde der Ball von [[Wolfgang Weber (Fußballspieler)|Wolfgang Weber]] über das Tor ins Aus geköpft. Hunt erklärte, wenn er nicht völlig sicher gewesen wäre, dass der Ball hinter der Linie sei, hätte er ihn ins Tor gedrückt.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/4895404.stm ''World Cup 1966 flashback'']. BBC sports</ref>

[[Bundespräsident (Deutschland)|Bundespräsident]] [[Heinrich Lübke]] handelte sich in Deutschland breite Kritik in der Öffentlichkeit ein, als er nach der WM 1966 sagte: „Der Ball war drin.“. In England wurde dieses Tor weit weniger als in Deutschland diskutiert, der Begriff Wembley-Tor beziehungsweise Wembley Goal wird dort im Sprachgebrauch nicht verwendet. Man spricht dort schlicht vom „dritten Tor“.

=== Klärung ===
Es war lange noch unklar, ob der Ball hinter der Torlinie war oder nicht. Im den 1990er Jahren kam eine von Ingenieuren der [[Universität Oxford]] erarbeitete Studie, zu dem Schluss, der Ball sei nicht im Tor gewesen. Auch andere Studien kamen aufgrund von Fotos und Filmaufnahmen zu dem Schluss, dass der Ball auf der Torlinie aufsprang, da man hochgeschleuderten Kalk der Torlinie sehen kann. Eine Aufbereitung eines 35-mm-Films, der während des Spiels 1966 aufgenommen wurde, soll zeigen, dass der Ball weder während des Auftreffens an die Latte noch während seiner Flugphase vollständig die Torlinie überschritten hat. Die Kamera, die diese Bilder aufgenommen hatte, befand sich fast auf Höhe der Torauslinie, so dass zu erkennen ist, dass der Ball den kürzesten Weg zwischen Torlatte und Linie genommen hatte und auf dieser aufsprang. Diese Erkenntnisse wurden im Mai 2006 veröffentlicht. Die meisten Experten gehen heute sicher davon aus, dass der Ball die Torlinie nicht mit vollem Umfang überschritten hat.

== Technische Hilfsmittel ==
Da man bislang [[Videobeweis]]e im Fußball vermeiden will, wäre für viele Fußballprofis und andere Fußballexperten das einzige direkte technische Hilfsmittel, das sie zulassen würden, ein [[Computerchip]] im Ball, mit Hilfe dessen die Position des Balls genau bestimmt werden kann und dadurch entschieden werden kann, ob ein Tor erzielt wurde oder nicht. Viele Ballhersteller arbeiten schon seit mehreren Jahren an solch einer Möglichkeit. Ende 2007 stellte [[Adidas]] einen eben solchen Ball vor, der seit 2005 entwickelt wurde. Getestet wurde der Ball bei der [[FIFA-Klub-Weltmeisterschaft 2007|Klub-WM 2007]]. Das [[IFAB]] entschied sich jedoch im Frühjahr 2008 gegen jegliche neue technische Hilfsmittel,<ref>
{{internetquelle|autor=|hrsg=|url=http://www.focus.de/sport/fussball/fussball-fifa-regelhueter-der-fifa-lehnen-chip-ball-ab_aid_273161.html|titel=Regelhüter der FIFA lehnen Chip-Ball ab|werk=FOCUS Online|datum=8. März 2008|zugriff=16. August 2008|kommentar=|zitat=}}</ref> was möglicherweise sogar das endgültige Aus für diese Technologie bedeutet.<ref>{{internetquelle|autor=|hrsg=|url=http://futurezone.orf.at/it/stories/262288/|titel=Absage an "Chipball"|werk=ORF.at|datum=8. März 2008|zugriff=16. August 2008|kommentar=|zitat= ‚Ich glaube, das war das endgültige Aus‘, kommentierte Brian Barwick, der Chef des Englischen Fußballverbandes [FA], die IFAB-Haltung, strittige Torentscheidungen nicht durch technologische Neuheiten zu erleichtern.}}</ref>

== Weblinks ==
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeXWEVXhdUo Ein Videobeweis, dass der Ball nicht im Tor war (mit englischem Originalkommentar)]
* [http://www.cicero.de/97.php?ress_id=9&item=3181 Und ewig schmerzt das Wembley-Tor] von Lukas Hermsmeier auf Cicero Online

== Einzelnachweise ==
<references />

[[Kategorie:Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft 1966]]
[[Kategorie:Besonderes Fußballspiel]]
[[Kategorie:Schiedsrichterwesen]]
[[Kategorie:Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft]]
[[Kategorie:Englische Fußballnationalmannschaft]]
[[Kategorie:Sport (London)]]

[[fr:But de la 100e minute]]

User:Wo st 01/Wembley-Goal

2010-03-11T10:52:12Z

Papphase: umbau (ip war auch ich)

Als '''Wembley-Tor''' wird im deutschen [[Fußball]] ein Lattentreffer bezeichnet, bei dem der Ball von der Unterkante der Torlatte nach unten springt und dabei die Torlinie möglicherweise nicht überschreitet und anschließend wieder ins Spielfeld springt. Nach derartigen Spielszenen ist es oft umstritten, ob der Ball im Tor war oder nicht.

== Geschichte ==
=== WM-Finale 1966 ===
Entstanden ist der Begriff durch den umstrittenen Treffer von [[Geoff Hurst]] zum 3:2 (Endstand 4:2 n.V.) in der 101. Minute des [[Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft 1966#Finale|WM-Endspiel von 1966]] zwischen der [[Englische Fußballnationalmannschaft|Englischen Fußballnationalmannschaft]] und der [[Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft|Deutschen Fußballnationalmannschaft]] im alten [[London]]er [[Wembley-Stadion]] am [[30. Juli]] [[1966]]. Nachdem Hurst den deutschen [[Torwart]] [[Hans Tilkowski]] überwand, entschied der Schweizer [[Fußballschiedsrichter|Schiedsrichter]] [[Gottfried Dienst]] nach Rücksprache mit dem sowjetischen [[Linienrichter]] [[Tofiq Bəhrəmov]] auf Tor. Die Kommunikation erfolgte nur mittels Zeichensprache, da Bəhrəmov nur [[Aserbaidschanische Sprache|Aserbaidschanisch]] und [[Russische Sprache|Russisch]] sprach und die beiden Schiedsrichter so keine gemeinsame Sprache zur Verständigung hatten.

Für das Ergebnis des Spiels ist das Tor insofern von Bedeutung, als Deutschland nach dem Tor seine Abwehr öffnete und England dann noch in den Schlusssekunden ein weiteres Tor (bei dem sich jedoch schon Zuschauer auf dem Spielfeld befanden) erzielte, so dass der Endstand letztendlich 4:2 lautete.

=== Nachspiel ===
 Der Linienrichter räumte ein, nicht genau gesehen zu haben, ob der Ball im Tor war; er habe aber aus der Reaktion der Beteiligten (Jubel der Engländer, Zurückhaltung der Deutschen) den Schluss gezogen, dass ein Tor gefallen sein musste. Dies stimmt jedoch nicht mit seinen Memoiren überein: Dort schrieb er, er sei vollkommen überzeugt gewesen, dass der Ball hinter der Linie war, da er das Netz berührte. Das Auftreffen des Balles auf den Boden habe er nicht gesehen, da er sich auf die jubelnden Engländer konzentriert habe. Eine Netzberührung des Balles dürfte jedoch die Exklusivmeinung von Bəhrəmov sein, selbst in England wurde diese Variante nie diskutiert. Auch die Fernsehaufnahmen zeigen deutlich das Gegenteil.

Direkt nach dem Auftreffen des Balles auf den Boden drehte der englische Stürmer [[Roger Hunt]] jubelnd ab; danach wurde der Ball von [[Wolfgang Weber (Fußballspieler)|Wolfgang Weber]] über das Tor ins Aus geköpft. Hunt erklärte, wenn er nicht völlig sicher gewesen wäre, dass der Ball hinter der Linie sei, hätte er ihn ins Tor gedrückt.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/4895404.stm ''World Cup 1966 flashback'']. BBC sports</ref>

[[Bundespräsident (Deutschland)|Bundespräsident]] [[Heinrich Lübke]] handelte sich in Deutschland breite Kritik in der Öffentlichkeit ein, als er nach der WM 1966 sagte: „Der Ball war drin.“. In England wurde dieses Tor weit weniger als in Deutschland diskutiert, der Begriff Wembley-Tor beziehungsweise Wembley Goal wird dort im Sprachgebrauch nicht verwendet. Man spricht dort schlicht vom „dritten Tor“.

=== Klärung ===
Es war lange noch unklar, ob der Ball hinter der Torlinie war oder nicht. Im den 1990er Jahren kam eine von Ingenieuren der [[Universität Oxford]] erarbeitete Studie, zu dem Schluss, der Ball sei nicht im Tor gewesen. Auch andere Studien kamen aufgrund von Fotos und Filmaufnahmen zu dem Schluss, dass der Ball auf der Torlinie aufsprang, da man hochgeschleuderten Kalk der Torlinie sehen kann. Eine Aufbereitung eines 35-mm-Films, der während des Spiels 1966 aufgenommen wurde, soll zeigen, dass der Ball weder während des Auftreffens an die Latte noch während seiner Flugphase vollständig die Torlinie überschritten hat. Die Kamera, die diese Bilder aufgenommen hatte, befand sich fast auf Höhe der Torauslinie, so dass zu erkennen ist, dass der Ball den kürzesten Weg zwischen Torlatte und Linie genommen hatte und auf dieser aufsprang. Diese Erkenntnisse wurden im Mai 2006 veröffentlicht. Die meisten Experten gehen heute sicher davon aus, dass der Ball die Torlinie nicht mit vollem Umfang überschritten hat.

== Technische Hilfsmittel ==
Da man bislang [[Videobeweis]]e im Fußball vermeiden will, wäre für viele Fußballprofis und andere Fußballexperten das einzige direkte technische Hilfsmittel, das sie zulassen würden, ein [[Computerchip]] im Ball, mit Hilfe dessen die Position des Balls genau bestimmt werden kann und dadurch entschieden werden kann, ob ein Tor erzielt wurde oder nicht. Viele Ballhersteller arbeiten schon seit mehreren Jahren an solch einer Möglichkeit. Ende 2007 stellte [[Adidas]] einen eben solchen Ball vor, der seit 2005 entwickelt wurde. Getestet wurde der Ball bei der [[FIFA-Klub-Weltmeisterschaft 2007|Klub-WM 2007]]. Das [[IFAB]] entschied sich jedoch im Frühjahr 2008 gegen jegliche neue technische Hilfsmittel,<ref>
{{internetquelle|autor=|hrsg=|url=http://www.focus.de/sport/fussball/fussball-fifa-regelhueter-der-fifa-lehnen-chip-ball-ab_aid_273161.html|titel=Regelhüter der FIFA lehnen Chip-Ball ab|werk=FOCUS Online|datum=8. März 2008|zugriff=16. August 2008|kommentar=|zitat=}}</ref> was möglicherweise sogar das endgültige Aus für diese Technologie bedeutet.<ref>{{internetquelle|autor=|hrsg=|url=http://futurezone.orf.at/it/stories/262288/|titel=Absage an "Chipball"|werk=ORF.at|datum=8. März 2008|zugriff=16. August 2008|kommentar=|zitat= ‚Ich glaube, das war das endgültige Aus‘, kommentierte Brian Barwick, der Chef des Englischen Fußballverbandes [FA], die IFAB-Haltung, strittige Torentscheidungen nicht durch technologische Neuheiten zu erleichtern.}}</ref>

== Weblinks ==
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeXWEVXhdUo Ein Videobeweis, dass der Ball nicht im Tor war (mit englischem Originalkommentar)]
* [http://www.cicero.de/97.php?ress_id=9&item=3181 Und ewig schmerzt das Wembley-Tor] von Lukas Hermsmeier auf Cicero Online

== Einzelnachweise ==
<references />

[[Kategorie:Fußball-Weltmeisterschaft 1966]]
[[Kategorie:Besonderes Fußballspiel]]
[[Kategorie:Schiedsrichterwesen]]
[[Kategorie:Deutsche Fußballnationalmannschaft]]
[[Kategorie:Englische Fußballnationalmannschaft]]
[[Kategorie:Sport (London)]]

[[fr:But de la 100e minute]]

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bischof-Ralph

2010-03-09T16:07:56Z

Papphase: /* Suspected sockpuppets */

<noinclude>__TOC__</noinclude>
{{SPIarchive notice|Bischof-Ralph}} {{SPIpriorcases}}

===== <big>Report date March 6 2010, 14:24 (UTC)</big>=====

{{SPIcat}}



====== Suspected sockpuppets ======
* {{checkuser|1=Theophil}}
* {{checkuser|1=Michelle cannon}} (=IP 93.209.51.145)
* {{checkuser|H3II0-U}}

====== Evidence submitted by [[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ======
[[User:Theophil]] was created very shortly after several [[User:Bischof-Ralph]] sockpuppets were banned (see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph/Archive|Archive]]). His only actions were to put a number of Christianity tags on his User page and then revert my clean-up of the [[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]] article which was/is Bishof Ralph's major playground. He uses the same accusations of lies and vandalism against anyone who removes orignial research, IKMO-sources and off-topics (such as Ralph Napierski "inventions" in the Fleige article) than previous sockpuppets.

[[User:Michelle cannon]] has hardly any edits outside the Fleige article. Popped up around the same time with all other socks and has the same liking for large numbers of flashing User page tags. Accusations of vandalism against me like all other Ralph-puppets.

As for myself: I don't edit very often here, but I'm a regular contributor on [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Papphase de:WP] with several thousand edits and over 70 new articles. I guess a good number of people can vouch for me not being a vandal.

====== Comments by accused parties ======
''See [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Guidance#Defending yourself against claims|Defending yourself against claims]].''

AGAIN???
you've got to be kidding me! —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Michelle cannon|Michelle cannon]] ([[User talk:Michelle cannon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Michelle cannon|contribs]]) 21:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC) 

It is quite clear that papphase has a personal problem with the people the article seiwert-fleige is about. He posted hate comments at the talk page, he called Seiwert Fleige a "schismatic rogue" of a "fringe church" and he claimed that the german goverment is not working correctly. Then he tried to discredit his Vicar Generalis by lying about his inventions. He acts like he is fighting a religious war here. . And there is also evidence that he did lie. Now he is constantly attacking me of being a sockpuppet and also has even deleted his OWN lies from the talk page... even though they remain in history forever! That is extremely suspicious behavior!!! It was already prooven that i am not a sockpuppet. and to say that i am a duck because i checked evidence that somebody else gave is redicoulous! i realy suggest that papphase will be blocked for lieing , trying to hide his lies and for constant harrassment!!! --[[User:Michelle cannon|Michelle cannon]] ([[User talk:Michelle cannon|talk]]) 22:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
:First: I do have a problem with fraud, yes, and with people promoting it for personal gain and attention. Second: The Palmarian ''is'' a fringe church (with about 2000 followers and an amazing 70+x bishops among them) and Fleige is not even part of that anymore, but basically alone with Napierski (and maybe Federico Tolli, if he's not to busy improving his magick). Third: Fleige ''is'' a schismatic, as proven by the church documents I cited. Fourth: What you chose to call my "lies", was actually nothing ''I'' have written (all my statements are still fully visible on the talk page), but comments by yet another Bishop-Ralph puppet. And they were initially removed by an [[User:Dougweller|administrator]], not me -until you reverted the admin. Fifth: You obviously insist of putting the most blatant nonsense into the article (including comments of Napierski's "achievements" in brain computing -> note that the article isn't even about him...) and are clearly out of you depth with even standard vocabulary (re: 'canonisation' vs 'incardination') yet insist on writing down lenghty opinions on canon law (read: original research) and present IKMO-sources that are so hazy one should here foghorn everytime the page opens up. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 23:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

now you lie, insult and shove your POV again. oh and btw, did you notice the subject line? this section is for accused parties only. If you have anything to say to me say it on my talk page or in the section which is appropriate. btw... you admitted that you came to Wikipedia EN to "keep an eye" on bischof-ralph. you have no interest in editing over here on Wikipedia-EN , your only reason is to stalk and harrass bischof ralph.. (for personal vendetta). I am sure if bischof Ralph never edited this article in the first place and someone else did originally you probably wouldnt have involved yourself. you are trying to publicly destroy a man of mission and that is really sad. From what i have read about bischof-ralph he is an honorable being who's main goal is to help others , NOT himself. And ALFRED was not given the proper chance he deserved. I support this article and these men of God. I wish there were more men out there to boldly go out in this crazy world without fear and help others find the path they are searching for.
If bischof ralph was in this for personal gain i am quite sure he would be going at it a completely different way protecting his "identity" . He is not a fake, no fake would use their real name publicly if there was a possiblity of braking the law. I think you are wrong about him. I hope one day i get the chance to meet him and do mission with him!!!
so if you have anything to say to me , then say it in the section titled... Other users, or on my talk page. this section is for the "accused socks"
Thankyou and have a nice day. --[[User:Michelle cannon|Michelle cannon]] ([[User talk:Michelle cannon|talk]]) 07:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Papphase- re to your comment below about me back on the aflred page happily editing and putting the nonsense back in, thats like calling the kettle black, as you were doing just that!!
---[[User:Michelle cannon|Michelle cannon]] ([[User talk:Michelle cannon|talk]]) 09:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I dont think that people with personal hate involved should be allowed to spread their POV in wikipedia articles. Im glad that these "users" who pretended to be bishop-ralph have been blocked too. IF papphase leaves this article alone then it is possible to create a good article.
--[[User:Michelle cannon|Michelle cannon]] ([[User talk:Michelle cannon|talk]]) 12:31, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

====== Comments by other users ======
This is one of the cases where we need a CU to sort out who is a sock and who isn't. Note that {{user|Michelle cannon}} was clean in the last check. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 15:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

*The main evidence regarding Michelle cannon is the users insistence on adding irrelevant material about Ralph Napierski, aka [[User:Bischof-Ralph]], see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph/Archive#Report_date_February_19_2010.2C_23:05_.28UTC.29|Feb. 19 SPI]] for diffs. Even if CU can positively confirm that IPs of Michelle cannon and Bischof-Ralph are completely unrelated, I think the [[WP:DUCK|DUCK]]y evidence points to meat-puppetry. It should also be noted that one of the characteristics of Ralph's previously confirmed socks is that they contradict and argue with one another, and then present that as "proof" that they are not socks. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph&diff=345290782&oldid=345280199] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph&diff=prev&oldid=342470701]

:Michelle also jumped on the bandwagon of sock {{user|Templeknight}} in accusing Papphase of "spreading lies", questioning who ''he'' is, and claiming an "attack on Bishop Sewivert-fleige and Bishop Napierski"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Peridon&diff=prev&oldid=346387615] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=347966124&oldid=347960799]. I also can't help but notice the similarity between Michelle's response to Papphase [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=346384256&oldid=346264176 here] and that of {{user|Theophil}} [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=prev&oldid=348090671 here].

:Michelle has also suggested that {{user|Peridon}}, and I ({{user|Wine Guy}}) are part of a "game plan" of {{user|Ban Yoo}} [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=prev&oldid=345231877]; and questioned [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] as well. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=345177838&oldid=345108739] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tim_Song&diff=prev&oldid=345179118]. This follows another pattern of Ralph's puppets: attack those who have a problem with questionable edits, and vigorously defend the addition of unsourced or improperly sourced material and original research. [[User:Wine Guy|'''''Wine Guy''''']][[User talk:Wine Guy|~Talk]] 23:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
* Ban Yoo was an interesting sock - one who appeared to be attacking the point of view of the other socks. Possibly to gain sympathy for the others.... I gave an apology to Michelle Cannon when she was cleared in the last SPI - as she might have just picked up a smoking gun when the sheriff walked in. I feel that now she has walked back in and picked up a dripping dagger. (There might be a blunt instrument with hair stuck to it in there yet to appear...) It is not difficult to vary one's IP address - and apparent location. It is also not hard to get someone else to post for you. Editing history and style are probably the factors to be assessed here. It could be that Michelle is just a loose Cannon, but it is also possible that ducks might be involved. [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 11:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
**Added {{user|H3II0-U}}. Obvious sock is obvious. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 09:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
* Michelle is back on the article happily edit-warring all proven nonsense back into it. Full protection would be nice and this is a duck if I've ever seen one. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 22:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

====== Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments ======
{{RFCU|E||endorse}}

{{admin-note}} [[User:Theophil]] indefinitely blocked and tagged ([[WP:DUCK]] applies clearly). I highly doubt Michelle Cannon is a sock, as she is on the opposite side of Bischof-Ralph in the ongoing edit war (which led to me full-protecting the article last time). –[[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 17:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

{{endorse}} – I've already pinged the CheckUser who checked last time to take another look as far as underlying IPs are concerned. –[[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 17:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
:{{clerknote}} H3II0-U blocked (by [[User:Coffee|Coffee]]) and tagged. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 09:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
----

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bischof-Ralph

2010-03-08T23:32:16Z

Papphase: /* Comments by accused parties */

<noinclude>__TOC__</noinclude>
{{SPIarchive notice|Bischof-Ralph}} {{SPIpriorcases}}

===== <big>Report date March 6 2010, 14:24 (UTC)</big>=====

{{SPIcat}}



====== Suspected sockpuppets ======
* {{checkuser|1=Theophil}}
* {{checkuser|1=Michelle cannon}}
* {{checkuser|H3II0-U}}

====== Evidence submitted by [[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ======
[[User:Theophil]] was created very shortly after several [[User:Bischof-Ralph]] sockpuppets were banned (see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph/Archive|Archive]]). His only actions were to put a number of Christianity tags on his User page and then revert my clean-up of the [[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]] article which was/is Bishof Ralph's major playground. He uses the same accusations of lies and vandalism against anyone who removes orignial research, IKMO-sources and off-topics (such as Ralph Napierski "inventions" in the Fleige article) than previous sockpuppets.

[[User:Michelle cannon]] has hardly any edits outside the Fleige article. Popped up around the same time with all other socks and has the same liking for large numbers of flashing User page tags. Accusations of vandalism against me like all other Ralph-puppets.

As for myself: I don't edit very often here, but I'm a regular contributor on [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Papphase de:WP] with several thousand edits and over 70 new articles. I guess a good number of people can vouch for me not being a vandal.

====== Comments by accused parties ======
''See [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Guidance#Defending yourself against claims|Defending yourself against claims]].''

AGAIN???
you've got to be kidding me! —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Michelle cannon|Michelle cannon]] ([[User talk:Michelle cannon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Michelle cannon|contribs]]) 21:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC) 

It is quite clear that papphase has a personal problem with the people the article seiwert-fleige is about. He posted hate comments at the talk page, he called Seiwert Fleige a "schismatic rogue" of a "fringe church" and he claimed that the german goverment is not working correctly. Then he tried to discredit his Vicar Generalis by lying about his inventions. He acts like he is fighting a religious war here. . And there is also evidence that he did lie. Now he is constantly attacking me of being a sockpuppet and also has even deleted his OWN lies from the talk page... even though they remain in history forever! That is extremely suspicious behavior!!! It was already prooven that i am not a sockpuppet. and to say that i am a duck because i checked evidence that somebody else gave is redicoulous! i realy suggest that papphase will be blocked for lieing , trying to hide his lies and for constant harrassment!!! --[[User:Michelle cannon|Michelle cannon]] ([[User talk:Michelle cannon|talk]]) 22:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
:First: I do have a problem with fraud, yes, and with people promoting it for personal gain and attention. Second: The Palmarian ''is'' a fringe church (with about 2000 followers and an amazing 70+x bishops among them) and Fleige is not even part of that anymore, but basically alone with Napierski (and maybe Federico Tolli, if he's not to busy improving his magick). Third: Fleige ''is'' a schismatic, as proven by the church documents I cited. Fourth: What you chose to call my "lies", was actually nothing ''I'' have written (all my statements are still fully visible on the talk page), but comments by yet another Bishop-Ralph puppet. And they were initially removed by an [[User:Dougweller|administrator]], not me -until you reverted the admin. Fifth: You obviously insist of putting the most blatant nonsense into the article (including comments of Napierski's "achievements" in brain computing -> note that the article isn't even about him...) and are clearly out of you depth with even standard vocabulary (re: 'canonisation' vs 'incardination') yet insist on writing down lenghty opinions on canon law (read: original research) and present IKMO-sources that are so hazy one should here foghorn everytime the page opens up. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 23:32, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

====== Comments by other users ======
This is one of the cases where we need a CU to sort out who is a sock and who isn't. Note that {{user|Michelle cannon}} was clean in the last check. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 15:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

*The main evidence regarding Michelle cannon is the users insistence on adding irrelevant material about Ralph Napierski, aka [[User:Bischof-Ralph]], see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph/Archive#Report_date_February_19_2010.2C_23:05_.28UTC.29|Feb. 19 SPI]] for diffs. Even if CU can positively confirm that IPs of Michelle cannon and Bischof-Ralph are completely unrelated, I think the [[WP:DUCK|DUCK]]y evidence points to meat-puppetry. It should also be noted that one of the characteristics of Ralph's previously confirmed socks is that they contradict and argue with one another, and then present that as "proof" that they are not socks. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph&diff=345290782&oldid=345280199] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph&diff=prev&oldid=342470701]

:Michelle also jumped on the bandwagon of sock {{user|Templeknight}} in accusing Papphase of "spreading lies", questioning who ''he'' is, and claiming an "attack on Bishop Sewivert-fleige and Bishop Napierski"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Peridon&diff=prev&oldid=346387615] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=347966124&oldid=347960799]. I also can't help but notice the similarity between Michelle's response to Papphase [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=346384256&oldid=346264176 here] and that of {{user|Theophil}} [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=prev&oldid=348090671 here].

:Michelle has also suggested that {{user|Peridon}}, and I ({{user|Wine Guy}}) are part of a "game plan" of {{user|Ban Yoo}} [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=prev&oldid=345231877]; and questioned [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] as well. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=345177838&oldid=345108739] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tim_Song&diff=prev&oldid=345179118]. This follows another pattern of Ralph's puppets: attack those who have a problem with questionable edits, and vigorously defend the addition of unsourced or improperly sourced material and original research. [[User:Wine Guy|'''''Wine Guy''''']][[User talk:Wine Guy|~Talk]] 23:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
* Ban Yoo was an interesting sock - one who appeared to be attacking the point of view of the other socks. Possibly to gain sympathy for the others.... I gave an apology to Michelle Cannon when she was cleared in the last SPI - as she might have just picked up a smoking gun when the sheriff walked in. I feel that now she has walked back in and picked up a dripping dagger. (There might be a blunt instrument with hair stuck to it in there yet to appear...) It is not difficult to vary one's IP address - and apparent location. It is also not hard to get someone else to post for you. Editing history and style are probably the factors to be assessed here. It could be that Michelle is just a loose Cannon, but it is also possible that ducks might be involved. [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 11:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
**Added {{user|H3II0-U}}. Obvious sock is obvious. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 09:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
* Michelle is back on the article happily edit-warring all proven nonsense back into it. Full protection would be nice and this is a duck if I've ever seen one. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 22:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

====== Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments ======
{{RFCU|E||endorse}}

{{admin-note}} [[User:Theophil]] indefinitely blocked and tagged ([[WP:DUCK]] applies clearly). I highly doubt Michelle Cannon is a sock, as she is on the opposite side of Bischof-Ralph in the ongoing edit war (which led to me full-protecting the article last time). –[[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 17:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

{{endorse}} – I've already pinged the CheckUser who checked last time to take another look as far as underlying IPs are concerned. –[[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 17:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
:{{clerknote}} H3II0-U blocked (by [[User:Coffee|Coffee]]) and tagged. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 09:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
----

User:Papphase

2010-03-08T22:06:52Z

Papphase:

Please contact me on [[:de:Benutzer:Papphase|my page on de:WP]].

And [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph|beware of the evil socks!]]

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bischof-Ralph

2010-03-08T22:00:51Z

Papphase: /* Comments by other users */

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)

2010-03-06T21:23:06Z

Papphase: /* Alfred Seiwert-Fleige */

===[[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]]===
{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}}
<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}}</ul></div>
:{{la|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2010 March 6#{{anchorencode:Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)}}|2=AfD statistics}})
:({{findsources|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}})
I can't find [[WP:BIO|significant coverage]] of this priest in [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Indeed, there was no Gnews hit at all, and none of the ghits looks usable to me. Not to mention the [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bischof-Ralph|abusive sockpuppetry]] going on in this [[WP:BLP|BLP]]. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 15:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

::The only thing sure about Seiwert-Fleige is that several German dioceses issued official warnings against him posing unrightfully as a bishop, notably on the internet (see article for sources) and that he is somehow connected to his "successor" Ralph Napierski (perma-banned [[User:Bischof-Ralph]]) who continues to put his own "brain computing inventions" into the Fleige article (and tries to auction "real cross relics" on the internet). Please put an end to this fraud. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 17:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Christianity|list of Christianity-related deletion discussions]].  -- [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 18:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Delete and [[WP:SALT|Salt]]'''. Of the g-hits for this person, many reference this WP article (mirrors etc.) or versions of the [[Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục]] article in this and other WPs. Most other hits refer to [[WP:PSTS|primary sources]] published by either Seiwert-Fleige or Ralph Napierski (aka [[User:Bischof-Ralph]]). The only [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] are the warnings mentioned by Papphase above, which have been published by various German [[dioceses]]. As these are all in German, and auto-translators produce only marginally readable English text, here is a translation of the warning published by the [[Archdiocese of Hamburg]] [http://www.erzbistum-hamburg.de/_amtsblatt/2009/20095.pdf]: ''Be forewarned, Mr. Alfred Seiwert-Fleige has been seen, as the [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith|Congregation for Doctrine]] has acknowledged, among other things posing illegally on the internet as a Catholic priest or bishop. If Mr. Seiwert-Fleige in any way contacts parishes or holds religious services, please pay particular attention and alert the [[Vicar general]] of the [[Archbishop]].'' In other words, this article serves only to perpetuate the hoax of a charlatan. [[User:Wine Guy|'''''Wine Guy''''']][[User talk:Wine Guy|~Talk]] 20:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
::As a service, here's the traslation of [https://www.map.drs.de/uploads/tx_drsPressespiegel/Amtsblatt_Nr_6__15_Mai_2009_Seite_125_164_.pdf another warning] by the diocese Rottenburg-Stuttgart: ''Warning (title) - Regarding Mr Alfred (Athanasius) Seiwert-Fleige, who often poses as catholic priest or even bishop, the [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]] points out: Despite contrary information that is i.a. propagated on the internet, Mr Seiwert-Fleige was never acknowledged by the Catholic Church nor ever reconciled with it and therefore is to be considered a schismatic.'' Based on that, I took the liberty to remove contradicting statements also from the articles [[Palmarian Catholic Church]] and [[Sedevacantism]]. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 21:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)

2010-03-06T21:21:26Z

Papphase: /* Alfred Seiwert-Fleige */

===[[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]]===
{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}}
<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}}</ul></div>
:{{la|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2010 March 6#{{anchorencode:Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)}}|2=AfD statistics}})
:({{findsources|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}})
I can't find [[WP:BIO|significant coverage]] of this priest in [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Indeed, there was no Gnews hit at all, and none of the ghits looks usable to me. Not to mention the [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bischof-Ralph|abusive sockpuppetry]] going on in this [[WP:BLP|BLP]]. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 15:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

::The only thing sure about Seiwert-Fleige is that several German dioceses issued official warnings against him posing unrightfully as a bishop, notably on the internet (see article for sources) and that he is somehow connected to his "successor" Ralph Napierski (perma-banned [[User:Bischof-Ralph]]) who continues to put his own "brain computing inventions" into the Fleige article (and tries to auction "real cross relics" on the internet). Please put an end to this fraud. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 17:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Christianity|list of Christianity-related deletion discussions]].  -- [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 18:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Delete and [[WP:SALT|Salt]]'''. Of the g-hits for this person, many reference this WP article (mirrors etc.) or versions of the [[Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục]] article in this and other WPs. Most other hits refer to [[WP:PSTS|primary sources]] published by either Seiwert-Fleige or Ralph Napierski (aka [[User:Bischof-Ralph]]). The only [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] are the warnings mentioned by Papphase above, which have been published by various German [[dioceses]]. As these are all in German, and auto-translators produce only marginally readable English text, here is a translation of the warning published by the [[Archdiocese of Hamburg]] [http://www.erzbistum-hamburg.de/_amtsblatt/2009/20095.pdf]: ''Be forewarned, Mr. Alfred Seiwert-Fleige has been seen, as the [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith|Congregation for Doctrine]] has acknowledged, among other things posing illegally on the internet as a Catholic priest or bishop. If Mr. Seiwert-Fleige in any way contacts parishes or holds religious services, please pay particular attention and alert the [[Vicar general]] of the [[Archbishop]].'' In other words, this article serves only to perpetuate the hoax of a charlatan. [[User:Wine Guy|'''''Wine Guy''''']][[User talk:Wine Guy|~Talk]] 20:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
::As a service, here's the traslation of [https://www.map.drs.de/uploads/tx_drsPressespiegel/Amtsblatt_Nr_6__15_Mai_2009_Seite_125_164_.pdf another warning] by the diocese Rottenburg-Stuttgart: ''Warning (title) - Regarding Mr Alfred (Athanasius) Seiwert-Fleige, who often poses as catholic priest or even bishop, the [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]] points out: Despite contrary information that is i.a. propagate on the internet, Mr Seiwert-Fleige was never acknowledged by the Catholic Church nor ever recociled with it and therefore to be considered a schismatic.'' Based on that, I took the liberty to remove contradicting statements also from the articles [[Palmarian Catholic Church]] and [[Sedevacantism]]. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 21:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)

2010-03-06T21:21:01Z

Papphase: /* Alfred Seiwert-Fleige */ +

===[[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]]===
{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}}
<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}}</ul></div>
:{{la|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2010 March 6#{{anchorencode:Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)}}|2=AfD statistics}})
:({{findsources|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}})
I can't find [[WP:BIO|significant coverage]] of this priest in [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Indeed, there was no Gnews hit at all, and none of the ghits looks usable to me. Not to mention the [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bischof-Ralph|abusive sockpuppetry]] going on in this [[WP:BLP|BLP]]. [[User:Tim Song|Tim Song]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 15:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

::The only thing sure about Seiwert-Fleige is that several German dioceses issued official warnings against him posing unrightfully as a bishop, notably on the internet (see article for sources) and that he is somehow connected to his "successor" Ralph Napierski (perma-banned [[User:Bischof-Ralph]]) who continues to put his own "brain computing inventions" into the Fleige article (and tries to auction "real cross relics" on the internet). Please put an end to this fraud. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 17:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Christianity|list of Christianity-related deletion discussions]].  -- [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 18:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Delete and [[WP:SALT|Salt]]'''. Of the g-hits for this person, many reference this WP article (mirrors etc.) or versions of the [[Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục]] article in this and other WPs. Most other hits refer to [[WP:PSTS|primary sources]] published by either Seiwert-Fleige or Ralph Napierski (aka [[User:Bischof-Ralph]]). The only [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] are the warnings mentioned by Papphase above, which have been published by various German [[dioceses]]. As these are all in German, and auto-translators produce only marginally readable English text, here is a translation of the warning published by the [[Archdiocese of Hamburg]] [http://www.erzbistum-hamburg.de/_amtsblatt/2009/20095.pdf]: ''Be forewarned, Mr. Alfred Seiwert-Fleige has been seen, as the [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith|Congregation for Doctrine]] has acknowledged, among other things posing illegally on the internet as a Catholic priest or bishop. If Mr. Seiwert-Fleige in any way contacts parishes or holds religious services, please pay particular attention and alert the [[Vicar general]] of the [[Archbishop]].'' In other words, this article serves only to perpetuate the hoax of a charlatan. [[User:Wine Guy|'''''Wine Guy''''']][[User talk:Wine Guy|~Talk]] 20:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
::As a service, here's the traslation of [https://www.map.drs.de/uploads/tx_drsPressespiegel/Amtsblatt_Nr_6__15_Mai_2009_Seite_125_164_.pdf another warning] by the diocese Rottenburg-Stuttgart: ''Warning (title) - Regarding Mr Alfred (Athanasius Seiwert-Fleige, who often poses as catholic priest or even bishop, the [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]] points out: Despite contrary information that is i.a. propagate on the internet, Mr Seiwert-Fleige was never acknowledged by the Catholic Church nor ever recociled with it and therefore to be considered a schismatic.'' Based on that, I took the liberty to remove contradicting statements also from the articles [[Palmarian Catholic Church]] and [[Sedevacantism]]. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 21:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Sedevacantism

2010-03-06T21:08:21Z

Papphase: /* Bishops and holy orders */ no, hedoesn't. the archdiosese of hamburg still warns about him posing unrightfully as bishop http://www.erzbistum-hamburg.de/_amtsblatt/2009/20095.pdf

[[Image:Ombrellino-keys.svg|thumb|right|150px|[[Sede vacante]] device, used by the [[Holy See]] from a Pope's death to the election of his successor]]

'''Sedevacantism''' is the position held by a minority of [[Traditionalist Catholic]]s who claim that the [[Holy See|Papal See]] has been vacant since either the death of [[Pope Pius XII]] in 1958 or [[Pope John XXIII]] in 1963.

Sedevacantists believe that [[Pope Paul VI|Paul VI]] (1963–1978), [[Pope John Paul I| John Paul I]] (1978), [[Pope John Paul II|John Paul II]] (1978–2005) and [[Pope Benedict XVI|Benedict XVI]] (since 2005) have been neither true [[Roman Catholic Church|Catholics]] nor true [[Pope]]s, by virtue of allegedly having espoused the heresy of [[Modernism (Roman Catholicism)|Modernism]], or of having otherwise denied or contradicted solemnly defined Catholic dogmas. Some of them classify [[John XXIII]] (1958–1963) also as a Modernist [[antipope]].

The term "sedevacantism" is derived from the Latin phrase ''[[sede vacante]]'', which literally means "the seat being vacant", the seat in question being that of a bishop. A specific use of the phrase is in the context of the vacancy of the [[Holy See]] between the death or resignation of a Pope and the [[papal election|election of his successor]]. "Sedevacantism" as a term in English appears to date from the 1980s, though the movement itself is older.<ref>See [http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NineVLefebvre.pdf this] article by sedevacantist priest Fr. Antony Cekada.</ref>

Some small groups of Traditionalist Catholics give allegiance to alternative Popes of their own. Since they hold that the Holy See is headed by their nominee and therefore is not in fact vacant, they are not sedevacantists in the strict sense, and are sometimes called "[[conclavism|conclavists]]". However, the term "sedevacantist" is often applied to them because they reject the generally accepted papal succession.

==Early history==
One of the earliest proponents of sedevacantism was the American [[Francis Schuckardt]]. Though he was still working within the "official" Church in 1967, he publicly took the position in 1968 that the [[Holy See]] was vacant and that the Church that had emerged from the [[Second Vatican Council]] was no longer Catholic.<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schuckardt#Tridentine_Latin_Rite_Catholic_Church</ref> An associate of his, [[Daniel Q. Brown]], arrived at the same conclusion. In 1969, Brown illicitly received episcopal orders from an [[Old Catholic]] bishop, and in 1971 he in turn consecrated Schuckardt. Schuckardt founded a congregation called the [[Tridentine Latin Rite Catholic Church]].

In 1970, a Japanese layman, Yukio Nemoto (1925–1988), created a sedevacantist group called [[Seibo No Mikuni]]. <ref>[http://www.cesnur.org/conferences/riga2000/zoccatelli.htm Seibo No Mikuni (Zoccatelli) — CESNUR]</ref>

Another founding figure of sedevacantism was Fr. [[Joaquín Sáenz y Arriaga]], a [[Society of Jesus|Jesuit]] theologian from [[Mexico]]. He put forward sedevacantist ideas in his books ''The New Montinian Church'' (August 1971) and ''Sede Vacante'' (1973). Sáenz's writings gave rise to the sedevacantist movement in [[Mexico]], led by Sáenz, Fr. [[Moises Carmona]] and Fr. [[Adolfo Zamora]], and also inspired Fr. [[Francis E. Fenton]] in the United States.

In the years following the Second Vatican Council other priests took up similar positions. They include:
* The Dominican theologian Fr. [[Guerard des Lauriers|Michel Louis Guérard des Lauriers]], who developed a thesis similar to sedevacantism called [[sedeprivationism]] in the 1970s.
* Several students at the SSPX seminary at Econe in the early or mid-1970s — [[Richard Williamson (bishop)|Richard Williamson]], [[Daniel Dolan]], [[Anthony Cekada]] and [[Donald Sanborn]] — who are reported to have been sedevacantists in that period.<ref>[http://sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id9.html]</ref> Three of these four individuals are now bishops within the traditionalist movement.
* The English parish priest Fr. [[Oswald Baker]], who was a sedevacantist at least by 1982,<ref>This being the date of the compilation of church bulletins quoted on [http://www.ttc-cmc.net/~nlight/edit.htm this page]</ref> and reportedly some time before that.
* The American missionary Fr. [[Lucian Pulvermacher]], who left the Roman Catholic Church in 1976 and in October, 1998 was elected pope of the [[Conclavism|conclavist]] [[true Catholic Church]] with the name of "Pius XIII".

==The Sedevacantist position==
As with [[traditionalist Catholic]]ism in general, sedevacantism owes its origins to the rejection of the perceived theological and disciplinary changes implemented following the [[Second Vatican Council]] (1962–1965). Sedevacantists thus reject the Council, on the basis of its documents on [[ecumenism]] and [[Freedom of religion|religious liberty]], which they see as contradicting the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church and as denying the unique mission of Catholicism as the [[one true religion]], [[Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus|outside of which there is no salvation]]. They also say that new disciplinary norms, such as the [[Mass of Paul VI]], promulgated on 3 April 1969, undermine or conflict with the historical Catholic faith.

Other traditionalist Catholics recognise as legitimate the line of Popes leading to [[Pope Benedict XVI]]. Some of them hold that one or more of the most recent Popes have held and taught unorthodox beliefs, but do not go so far as to say that they have been formal heretics or have been widely and publicly judged to be heretics. Sedevacantists, on the other hand, claim that the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church could not have decreed the changes made in the name of the Second Vatican Council, and conclude that those who issued these changes could not have been acting with the authority of the Catholic Church. Accordingly, they hold that [[Pope Paul VI]] and his successors left the true Catholic Church and thus lost legitimate authority in the Church. A formal heretic, they say, cannot be the Catholic Pope.

Claims used by sedevacantists to defend their position include the following:

* Most pre-Conciliar Catholic theologians and canon lawyers taught that it is inherently impossible for a heretic to hold the papal office.
* Particular provisions of Church law prevent a heretic from being elected or remaining as pope. [[Pope Paul IV| Paul IV]]'s 1559 [[Papal Bull|Bull]] ''Cum ex apostolatus officio'' stipulated that a heretic cannot be elected Pope, while Canon 188.4 of the 1917 [[Canon Law (Catholic Church)#Codification|Code of Canon Law]] provides that a cleric who publicly defects from the Catholic faith automatically loses any office that he holds in the Church.

Mainstream Catholics have engaged sedevacantists in debate on some of these points. [[Brian Harrison (theologian)|Brian Harrison]] of [[Puerto Rico]], for example, has argued that Pope Pius XII's conclave legislation permitted excommunicated cardinals to attend, from which he argues that they could also be legitimately elected [http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea1.asp].

Opponents of Harrison have argued that a phrase in Pope Pius XII's legislation "Cardinals who have been deposed or who have resigned, however, are barred and may not be reinstated even for the purpose of voting", though it speaks of someone deposed or resigned from the cardinalate, not of someone who may have incurred automatic excommunication but has not been officially declared excommunicated, means that, even if someone is permitted to attend, that does not automatically translate into electability.

There are estimated to be between several tens of thousands and more than two hundred thousands of sedevacantists worldwide, mostly concentrated in the [[United States]], [[Canada]], [[France]], the [[United Kingdom]], [[Italy]], and [[Australia]], but the actual size of the sedevacantist movement has never been accurately assessed. (See further [[Traditionalist Catholic#Number of traditionalist Catholics|the section on statistics]] in the article ''[[Traditionalist Catholic]]''.)

Catholic doctrine has taught that the four marks of the true Church are that it is one, holy, catholic, and [[Twelve Apostles|apostolic]], and sedevacantists base their claim to be the true remnant Roman Catholic Church on what they see as the presence in them of these four "marks", absent, they say, in the Church since the Second Vatican Council. Their critics counter by saying that sedevacantists are in fact not one, forming numerous splinter groups, each of them in disagreement with the others.

Most sedevacantists hold the [[holy orders]] conferred with the present revised rites of the Catholic Church to be invalid due to defect both of intention and form. They conclude that the great majority of the [[bishop]]s listed in the [[Holy See]]'s ''[[Annuario Pontificio]]'', including [[Benedict XVI]] himself, are in reality merely priests or even laymen.

==Bishops and holy orders==
Catholic doctrine holds that any bishop can validly ordain any baptised man to the priesthood or to the episcopacy, provided that he has the correct intention and uses a doctrinally acceptable rite of ordination, whether or not he has official permission of any sort to perform the ordination, and indeed whether or not he and the [[ordinand]] are Catholics{{Facts|date=August 2009}}

On the other hand, while unapproved and irregular ordinations are ''valid'' in that the recipient truly becomes a priest or bishop, they are canonically ''illegal'' (or ''illicit''), and entail penalties under church law for those involved. Canon law currently forbids ordination to the episcopate without a mandate from the Pope,<ref>[http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P3N.HTM canon 1013]</ref> and both those who confer such ordination without the papal mandate and those who receive it incur automatic excommunication.<ref>[http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P52.HTM canon 1382]</ref> Orthodox Catholic doctrine therefore considers sedevacantist ordinations of priests and bishops valid where the appropriate conditions are fulfilled, but regards them as sinful and canonically criminal acts without any standing in Church law. Sedevacantists take the position that the normal legal requirements, such as the need for a papal mandate for an episcopal consecration, cannot be applied in the context of a collapse of the Church's structures and the prolonged lack of a pope.

In a specific pronouncement in 1976, the [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]] declared devoid of canonical effect the consecration ceremony conducted for the [[Palmarian Catholic Church]] by Archbishop Ngô Ðình Thuc on 31 December 1975, though it refrained from pronouncing on its validity. This declaration applied also to later ordinations by those who received ordination in the ceremony.<ref>"As for those who have already thus unlawfully received ordination or any who may yet accept ordination from these, whatever may be the validity of the orders (''quidquid sit de ordinum validitate''), the Church does not and will not recognize their ordination (''ipsorum ordinationem''), and will consider them, for all legal effects, as still in the state in which they were before, except that the… penalties remain until they repent" (Sacred [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]], Decree ''Episcopi qui alios'' of 17 September 1976 — ''Acta Apostolicae Sedis'' 1976, page 623).</ref> Of those then ordained, seven who are known to have returned to full communion with Rome did so as laymen,<ref>See [http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Thuc_Consecrations.html Thuc Consecrations]</ref>. Again, when Archbishop [[Emmanuel Milingo]] conferred episcopal ordination on four men in Washington on 24 September 2006, the Holy See's Press Office declared that "the Church does not recognize and does not intend in the future to recognize these ordinations or any ordinations derived from them, and she holds that the canonical state of the four alleged bishops is the same as it was prior to the ordination."<ref>[http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/18881.php?index=18881&po_date=26.09.2006 Declaration in Italian and English]</ref>

The bishops who are or have been active within the sedevacantist movement can be divided into four categories.

* '''Bishops consecrated within the "official" Church''' who were subsequently persuaded to the sedevacantist position. To date, this category seems to consist of only two individuals, both now deceased: the Vietnamese Archbishop [[Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin|Ngô Ðình Thuc]] (who, before he died in 1984, may have been reconciled to Pope John Paul II) and the Chicago-born Mgr. [http://www.sspv-bishop.org/mendez.htm Alfredo F. Mendez], the former Bishop of [[Arecibo, Puerto Rico]]. The late Bishop [[Antônio de Castro Mayer]] of Campos, Brazil is also said to have embraced, or at least flirted with, sedevacantism, despite his association with the non-sedevacantist [[Society of St. Pius X]].

* '''Bishops whose lineages derive from the foregoing bishops''', which essentially means the "Thuc line" of bishops deriving from Archbishop Ngô Ðình Thuc. While the "Thuc line" is lengthy and complex, reportedly comprising 200 or more individuals,<ref>See list and line of descent at [http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Thuc_Consecrations.html Thuc Consecratons]</ref> the sedevacantist community generally accepts and respects most of the 12 or so bishops following from the three or four final consecrations that the Archbishop performed (those of Bishops Guerard des Lauriers, Carmona, Zamora and Datessen). Bishop Mendez consecrated one priest to the episcopacy, Fr. Clarence Kelly of the [[Society of St. Pius V]],<ref>The Most Reverend Clarence Kelly, Sacred and Profane (Oyster Bay Cove, NY: 1997), 101. http://congregationofstpiusv.net/SacredandProfane.pdf</ref> who in turn has consecrated one further bishop.<ref>See photos of consecration at http://www.stpiusvchapel.org/photos/consecration2/consecration2.html</ref> In addition, many bishops in the "Thuc line" are or have been associated with the [[conclavism|conclavist]] [[Palmarian Catholic Church]].

* '''Bishops whose lineages derive from earlier schisms'''. A considerable number of sedevacantist bishops are said to derive from Bishop [[Carlos Duarte Costa]], who in 1945 set up his own schismatic "[[Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church]]".<ref>For the many who look to him as the origin of their episcopal orders see [http://tboyle.net/Catholicism/Costa_Consecrations.html Costa Consecrations].</ref> More numerous are those who have had recourse to the [[Old Catholic]] line of succession. Bishops of this category include [[Francis Schuckardt]] and others associated with him. The orders of the [[Old Catholic Church#Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands|original Old Catholic Church]] are regarded by the Roman Catholic Church as valid, though no such declaration of recognition has been issued with regard to the several [[Independent Catholic Churches]] that claim to trace their episcopal orders to this Church. Some shadow of doubt hovers over the validity of the orders received from these bishops, and the claimants have not received wide acceptance in the sedevacantist community, though most have at least some small congregation.

* '''Bishops whose orders are generally regarded as invalid through lack of proper lineage'''. [[Lucian Pulvermacher]] and [[Gordon Bateman]] of the small conclavist ''[[true Catholic Church]]'' fall into this category.

==Criticism==
Against sedevacantism, mainstream Catholics advance arguments such as:
* According to standard Catholic doctrine, the Catholic Church is a visible identifiable body that is literally catholic, in the sense of universal ("for all people"). This is seen as incompatible with the sedevacantist claim that the true nature of the Catholic Church has been hidden from the world for half a century.
* The 1870 Dogmatic Constitution [http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm ''Pastor Aeternus''] of the [[First Vatican Council]] reaffirmed that "it has always been necessary for every Church — that is to say, the faithful throughout the world — to be in agreement with (the Roman Church) because of its preeminent authority" and that consequently the bishop whom the Church in Rome acknowledges as its head "is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church and father and teacher of all Christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church." This is seen as incompatible with the sedevacantist claim that the papal line of succession has been broken since 1958 (or 1963).
* Critics of sedevacantism argue that this also means that the theory advanced by the seventeenth-century theologian and Doctor of the Church [[Robert Bellarmine]] that a Pope who fell into heresy would automatically forfeit his office and could be formally deposed has been overruled by Church authority (in the same way that Thomas Aquinas' non-belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary was overruled by Pius IX's declaration that the Immaculate Conception was indisputably Catholic doctrine) — while sedevacantist Catholics point out that no such supposed "overruling" has ever been documented — and that sedevacantist appeals to Bellarmine's authority in this point cannot be sustained. They add that Bellarmine envisaged that such a deposition, even if possible, could only be undertaken by a significant body of the Church including many bishops and cardinals, rather than by a few individuals.
* The Catholic doctrine of the indefectibility of the Church, which appeals to Christ's promise to the Apostle Peter in {{bibleverse||Matthew|16:18}} ("You are Peter (the Rock), and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it") excludes the possibility that the Catholic bishops around the world and the Pope with whom they are in communion would succumb to heresy and fall from office.
* They say that sedevacantists wrongly treat certain papal statements of the past as if they were [[Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedra|''ex cathedra'']] declarations.
* They claim that sedevacantists fail to distinguish between matters of discipline — such as the use of [[Latin]] and of the [[Tridentine Mass]] — which can be reformed at any time, and infallible dogmatic teachings.
* They say that sedevacantists indulge in the [[Formal fallacy|logical fallacy]] of [[post hoc ergo propter hoc]] when they attribute problems that the Church has experienced in the Western world since the reforms of the Second Vatican Council to the reforms themselves rather than to the general decrease in religiosity in the West.

Sedevacantists advance counter-arguments, such as:
* They deny that they implicitly repudiate the dogma of papal infallibility as defined at the [[First Vatican Council]], and maintain that, on the contrary, they are the fiercest defenders of this doctrine, since they teach that the Apostolic See of Peter, under the rule of a true Pope, cannot promulgate contradictory teachings.
* To rebut the accusation of denying the catholicity and indefectibility of the Church, they say that, between the death of every Pope and the election of his successor, there is a ''sede vacante'' period during which there is no visible Head of the Church, and — while mainstream Catholics hold that, according to the dogmatic constitution ''Pastor aeternus'' of the First Vatican Council, which speaks of "perpetual successors" in the pontificate, there must be, apart from such transitory periods, a perpetual presence of the ''Bishop'' of Rome, not merely of his ''office'' — that the absence of a Pope has become a long-term feature of the Church's structure.
* They recall that, during the 40-year [[Western Schism|Great Western Schism]], while nobody claimed that the see of Rome was vacant, there was uncertainty about which of the two (eventually three) claimants was the true pontiff, with even canonized saints taking opposing sides in the controversy. In his 1882 book, ''The Relations of the Church to Society — Theological Essays'', the Jesuit theologian, Father Edmund James O'Reilly, wrote: "... not that an interregnum covering the whole period would have been impossible or inconsistent with the promises of Christ, for this is by no means manifest." [http://www.sedevacantist.com/oreilly.html]
* They say that they primarily base their claim of the empty [[Apostolic See]] on "proven" denial of Catholic dogma by post-1958 or post-1963 popes, and only secondarily on the thence originating changes in discipline and liturgy.
* They interpret the [[Book of Revelation]] as speaking of an end-times Great Apostasy on the City of Seven Hills (Rome) and say that Our Lady of [[Our Lady of La Salette|La Salette]] warned on 19 September 1846 that Rome would lose the faith and become the seat of the Antichrist.

==Sedevacantist groups==
* [[The Holy Catholic Mercedarian Church]]. [http://iglemerci.jimdo.com http://iglemerci.jimdo.com/]
* [[Most Holy Family Monastery]], a sedevacantist community living in [[Fillmore, New York]], under the headship of Michael (official name Frederick) Dimond. Only Michael and his biological brother Peter (official name Robert) Dimond write the contents of the website. [http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com Most Holy Family Monastery]
* [[Society of St. Pius V]], formed when nine priests of the [[Society of St. Pius X]] split from that organization over a number of issues including using the liturgical reforms implemented under [[Pope John XXIII]].<ref>A more comprehensive list of objections can be found at http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=48&catname=12</ref> The SSPV maintains that much of the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church no longer adheres to the Catholic faith but instead profess a new, or Conciliar religion. They regard the question of the legitimacy of the present hierarchy and the possibility that the Holy See is unoccupied to be unresolved. The SSPV does not impose sedevacantism as a morally binding teaching.<ref>"A Statement of Principles in a Time of Crisis," The Roman Catholic Association, Inc., (1988): http://www.stpiusvchapel.org/flash_paper/articles/003_declaration_principles.swf</ref>
* The [[Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục]] lines of episcopal succession

*Catholic Restoration, consisting of the founding members-- dissenters from [[SSPV]]-- ([[Anthony Cekada]], [[Daniel Dolan]],[[Donald Sanborn]]), together with newer priests who were trained in their seminary.
* [[Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen]]
* The Society of the Immaculata, founded by [http://www.societyoftheimmaculata.com/founder.html Dennis McCormack]
* [[Apostles of Infinite Love]], founded by Michel Collin.

==References==
{{reflist}}

==See also==
* [[Conclavism]]
* [[Traditionalist Catholic]]
* [[Tridentine Mass]]
* [[Second Vatican Council]]
* [[Mass of Paul VI]]
* [[Sirianism]]

==External links==
===Sedevacantist sites===
*[http://www.sodalitiumpianum.com/index.php Sedevacantist European Seminary]
*[http://www.romancatholicism.org/sedevacantism-reconsidered.htm Sedevacantism Reconsidered]
*[http://www.geocities.com/catholic_traditionalist/#sede Roman Catholic Traditionalism? Sedevacantism.]
*[http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/04Sep/sep12mdi.htm Evidence of sedevacantism]
*[http://www.wandea.org.pl/sedevacantism.html Further explanation of sedevacantism]
*[http://www.sedevacantist.com/ The Aquinas site. Sedevacantist.com.]
*[http://haggard.w.interia.pl/sede.html list of sites]
*[http://www.sedevacante.pl Fr Raphael Trytek]
*[http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com Eclipse of the Church]
*[http://www.wftsradio.com/ WFTS radio] SSPV sermons, lectures, music
*[http://www.sspv.net/ SSPV]
*[http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/ Most Holy Family Monastery]
*[http://www.societyoftheimmaculata.com The Society of the Immaculata]
*[http://www.kirchenlehre.com/wikiped2.htm Wikipedia: "Rolf Hermann Lingen" — KzM] {{de icon}}

===Criticism===

* [http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/is_sedevacantism_catholic1.html Critique of sedevacantism by the SSPX]
* [http://www.sspx.ca/Communicantes/Dec2004/Is_That_Chair_Vacant.htm Is that Chair Vacant?] A dossier on sedevacantism by the [[Society of St. Pius X]] of [[Canada]].
*[http://www.olfatima.com/sedevacantism_refuted.html Sedevacantism refuted] by [[bishop]] [[Terence Fulham]]
*[http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/may09tcw.htm#sede-sect? De Fide: "Peter Will Have Perpetual Successors": Exposing The Sloth & Sophistry Of The Sedevacantist (False) Thesis Adherents]
* [http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/church/dimond3.htm Against Sedevacantism. Discussion with the Dimond Brothers.] By Robert Sungenis
* [http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/church/insan_o_sed1.htm The insanity of sedevacantism] by Robert Sungenis.
* [http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea1.asp White smoke? Valid Pope] by Father Brian Harrison
* [http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0003fea1.asp Do-It-Yourself Popes: the Wacky World of Sedevacantists] (concerning strict sedevacantists as well as conclavists)
* [http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/sedevacantism.html A Refutation of the Heresy of Sedevacantism] by I. Shawn McElhinney.

{{Traditionalist Catholicism}}

[[Category:Schisms in Christianity]]
[[Category:Sedevacantism|*]]
[[Category:Sedevacantists]]
[[Category:Spiritual theories]]

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Palmarian Catholic Church

2010-03-06T21:06:13Z

Papphase: /* Criticism */ no, he wasn't. the archdiosese of hamburg still warns about him posing unrightfully as bishop http://www.erzbistum-hamburg.de/_amtsblatt/2009/20095.pdf

[[Image:cathedralelpalmar.jpg|thumb|right|The cathedral of Palmar de Troya]]

The '''Christian Palmarian Church of the Carmelites of the [[Veil of Veronica|Holy Face]]''' ({{lang-es|Iglesia Cristiana Palmariana de los Carmelitas de la Santa Faz}}), commonly called the '''Palmarian Catholic Church''' (''Iglesia Católica Palmariana''), is a [[Schism (religion)|schismatic]] [[Roman Catholic Church|Catholic]] church with its own pope, [[Manuel Corral]], called Pope Peter II. It is often considered to be part of the [[conclavism|conclavist]] movement.

==History==
===Origins===

The origins of the Palmarian movement lay in the apparitions of the [[Virgin Mary]] reported at [[Palmar de Troya]] from March 1968. Four [[Spanish people|Spanish]] schoolgirls stated they saw her by a little tree on a piece of farmland called La Alcaparrosa. Many people came to witness the supposed apparitions, and a number of [[miracle]]s similar to those at [[Our Lady of Fátima|Fátima]], [[Garabandal]] and [[Međugorje]] were said to have occurred. The seers had many supporters, including priests. Several other people reported visions at the site, including [[Clemente Domínguez y Gómez]], an insurance broker from [[Seville]]. He gradually became the "principal seer".<ref>Scott Corrales, [http://wintersteel.homestead.com/Two_Popes.html A Tale of Two Popes]. ''Inexplicata, A Journal of Hispanic Ufology''. Retrieved 2008-07-01.</ref> The original seers were forgotten, their visions dismissed by the local bishop.<ref>Robert Duncan, [http://robertstevenduncan.blogspot.com/2007/07/spains-pope-gregory-xvii-profile-of.html Spain's Pope Gregory XVII: A Profile Of Madness.] Retrieved 2008-07-01.</ref> He claimed that the [[Mary, the mother of Jesus|Virgin Mary]] had given him instructions to rid the [[Roman Catholic Church]] of "[[heresy]] and progressivism", and of [[Communism]].

In 1975, Domínguez formed a new religious order, the '''Order of Carmelites of the Holy Face''' (or '''Carmelite Order of the Holy Face'''), which claimed to be "faithful to the holy [[Pope Paul VI]]". The order did not have official Church approval, and it claimed that Paul VI (who is still honoured by Palmarians as a martyr-pope) was detained in the Vatican by evil conspiring cardinals. The order was initially run by laymen, but supported sacramentally by priests from [[Spain]], [[Portugal]] and the [[United States]].

===Consecration of bishops===

To be guaranteed access to the sacraments, Domínguez's group needed its own bishops. Domínguez wrote a letter to [[Marcel Lefebvre]] and asked him to consecrate him. But Lefebvre did send 3 of his priests and in 1976, the (now laicised) Swiss priest [[Maurice Revaz]] (who had taught Canon Law at the [[Society of Saint Pius X]] (SSPX) seminary of Archbishop [[Marcel Lefebvre]] in Ecône) persuaded the elderly [[Vietnam]]ese Roman Catholic Archbishop [[Ngo Dinh Thuc]] <ref>[http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bngo.html Catholic Hierarchy]</ref> of the authenticity of the apparitions.<ref>Oskar Schmitt: Ein würdiger Verwalter im Weinberg unseres Herrn Jesus Christus: Bischof Pierre Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc, Norderstedt 2006, Books on Demand, ISBN 3-8334-5385-0</ref> Archbishop Thuc was chosen because he was a [[papal legate]]. Accepting the mystical message of the seer-mystics, the Archbishop believed that he was called by the Virgin Mary to raise two of the order's members (Domínguez and a lawyer named Manuel Alonso Corral) and three of the priests associated with the group to the rank of bishop.

He did this without obtaining the mandatory authorisation from the [[Holy See]]. The Archbishop also ordained some laymen to the priesthood. Thuc and the five men he consecrated as bishops were subsequently excommunicated by Paul VI. Thuc subsequently cut his ties with the group and was reconciled with the Church authorities.

===Claim to the papacy===

Following the death of [[Pope Paul VI]] in 1978, Domínguez set up his own [[holy see]] in Seville, claiming that he had been mystically crowned pope by [[Jesus Christ]] in a vision. He took the papal name "Gregory XVII", and appointed his own [[cardinal (Catholicism)|cardinals]]. By these actions, the "Carmelites of the [[Holy Face]]" evolved into the Palmarian Catholic Church. Some of Catholics previously associated with the Carmelites left the group as a result.

Uniquely, the popes of the Palmarian Church do not claim to be the titular [[Bishop of Rome]]. Rather, they claim that [[Christ]] transferred the position of Patriarch of the West and Supreme Pontiff to the new episcopal see of Palmar de Troya. This is a departure from traditional Roman Catholic doctrine, which identifies the papacy with the Bishop of Rome. Catholic teaching also holds that personal revelations are not binding on the Church as a whole.

As his capacity as Pope Gregory XVII, Domínguez called the Roman Catholic Church a false church and declared the nominal Pope [[John Paul II]] [[excommunicated]]. In addition Pope Pope Gregory XVII also canonized [[Francisco Franco]], [[Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer]] and [[Christopher Columbus]] and declared Paul VI a [[martyr saint]].

===Peter II===

Domínguez died in March 2005 whilst administering the Palmarian Easter Liturgy, supposedly while experiencing a vision. His church later declared him to be Pope Saint Gregory XVII, the Very Great. [[Manuel Alonso Corral]] named in 2000 by Clemente as his successor succeeded him as Pope [[Antipope Peter II|Peter II]].There was no Palmarian conclave for this election.

Despite the name 'Peter II', Corral does not claim to be 'Petrus Romanus', the last Pope, according to the controversial [[Prophecy of the Popes]] attributed to [[St. Malachy]]: he does not claim to be the Bishop (titular or otherwise) of Rome, and has no personal ties to that see.

'Peter II' has no claims to visions but has confirmed that the Anti Christ was born in the year 2000. The Palmarian doctrine regarding the anti christ indicates that the anti christ will mock Christ and imitate him by making a public appearance at the age of 12 and begin his public life when he is 30 years old (source Palmarian Council)

===Present day===
The Palmarian Church claims to have 60 clergy (all of whom are [[bishop]]s), 70 [[nun]]s and 2,000 followers. It has chapels in Ireland, [[UK|Britain]], Australia, New Zealand and [[Latin America]].

Since 1983 the Palmarian Church has drastically reformed its rites and its liturgy, which previously had been styled in the [[Tridentine]] form. The Palmarian liturgy was reduced to almost solely the Eucharistic words of [[consecration]]. The See of Palmar de Troya has also declared the [[real presence]] of the [[Virgin Mary]] in the sacred [[Eucharist|host]] and the bodily assumption into heaven of [[Joseph of Nazareth|St. Joseph]] to be dogmas of the Catholic faith. By 2000, they had their own version of the Bible, revised by Domínguez on claimed prophetic authority.

The Archidonian Palmarian group (Archidonia, Malaga, Spain) formed in 2000 was due to the expulsion of 16 cardinals and five nuns. They were expelled by Clemente for diverse reasons. The predominant reason for the expulsions was due to Clementes belief that there was "a church within a church" within the Palmarian church This group according to Clemente were planning to overthrow him. Others were expelled for an alleged plot to assassinate Clemente. Only one cardinal, Cyril Maria, was expelled due to the new edition of the Bible. The group in Archidona, Spain has since almost disbanded and there remains four or five. They presently call themselves "independent" Palmarian priests. They believe that the see of Peter is vacant.

==Criticism==

Controversial practices which are not part of traditional Catholic devotion have been reported in the Palmarian Church since its foundation. In the early 1990s, several priests were treated in local hospitals after apparently undergoing amateur [[body piercing]]. Domínguez admitted to having sex with nuns, and had previously been active in Seville's [[homosexual]] community.<ref>Robert Duncan, [http://robertstevenduncan.blogspot.com/2007/07/spains-pope-gregory-xvii-profile-of.html Spain's Pope Gregory XVII: A Profile Of Madness.] Retrieved 2008-07-01.</ref>

It has been claimed that Domínguez used [[self harm]] to give himself the appearance of the [[stigmata]].[http://www.belowtopsecret.com/thread306649/pg1]

Between 1978 and 1983, many adherents left the Palmarian Church, including the Palmarian Bishop [[Maurice Revaz]]. He was reconciled to the Roman Catholic Church by [[Pope John Paul II]] in 1983. A similar case was [[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]], who was ordained a priest by Archbishop Thuc and consecrated a bishop around 1980. He left the Palmarian Church in 1981.

==Popes of the Palmarian Catholic Church==

Up the death of [[Pope Paul VI]] in 1978, Palmarian Catholics generally accept the conventional succession of Roman Pontiffs.

{| class="wikitable"
! width="15%" | Pontificate
! width="5%" | Portrait
! width="25%" | Name English · Regnal (Latin & Spanish)
! width="15%" | Personal name
! width="10%" | Place of birth
! width="30%" | Notes
|- valign="top"
| 15 August 1978 – 22 March 2005 (26 years)
|
| '''[[Clemente Domínguez y Gómez|St. Gregory XVII the Very Great]]''' '''Papa GREGORIUS Septimus Decimus''' '''Santo Papa Gregorio XVII, el muy Grande'''
| Clemente Domínguez y Gómez
| [[Seville]], [[Spanish State|Spain]]
|
|- valign="top"
| 22 March 2005 – present ({{age|2005|3|22}} years)
|
| '''[[Manuel Corral|Peter II]]''' '''Papa PETRUS Secundus''' Papa Pedro II
| Manuel Alonso Corral
|
| There was no Palmarian conclave to elect Corral, as Domínguez had named him as successor in 2000.
|}

==Notes==

''The original version of this article was adapted from "A million gather for Pope's 'last words' to Spain" by Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid.''

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
* [http://www.palmardetroya.org Support Website for persons adversley affected by this religious group ]
 [http://www.palmardetroya.org Source of apostolic letters of Peter II ]
{{commonscat}}
*[http://www.geocities.com/palmardetroyaarchidona/1ingles.htm Site of dissident Palmarian bishops operating in] [[Archidona]], [[Málaga (province)|Málaga]], Spain.
*[http://www.belowtopsecret.com/thread306649/pg1 Information in English. Site by former Palmarians who left the community. ''Testimonies'']
* [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050323/ai_n13475286 Obituary: Clemente Domnguez Gomez]. In The ''London Independent'', March 23, 2005, by Elizabeth Nash. Retrieved 2008-07-01.
*[http://homepage.eircom.net/~palmardetroya/rules.htm ''Rules governing the followers of the Palmarian church'']

[[Category:Independent Catholic Churches]]
[[Category:Religious organizations established in 1975]]
[[Category:Sevilla province]]
[[Category:Christianity in Spain]]
[[Category:Christian denominations, unions, and movements established in the 20th century]]

[[ca:Església Catòlica Palmariana]]
[[de:Palmarianisch-Katholische Kirche]]
[[es:Iglesia cristiana palmariana]]
[[fr:Église chrétienne palmarienne des Carmélites de la Sainte-Face]]
[[it:Chiesa Cattolica Palmariana]]
[[pl:Kościół Palmariański]]

User:Papphase

2010-03-06T17:06:20Z

Papphase:

Please contact me on [[:de:Benutzer:Papphase|my page on de:WP]].

User talk:Papphase

2010-03-06T17:05:50Z

Papphase:

== Welcome ==
{| style="background-color:#F5FFFA; padding:0;" cellpadding="0"
|class="MainPageBG" style="border:1px solid lightgrey; background-color:lightgrey; vertical-align:top; color:#000000; font-size:85%"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top; background-color:lavender; padding:0;"
! <div style="margin:0; background-color:white; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:120%; font-weight:normal; border:1px solid lightgrey; text-align:left; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top:0.2em; padding-bottom:0.2em;">Hello, Papphase! '''[[Wikipedia:Introduction|Welcome]] to Wikipedia!''' Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Papphase|your contribution]]. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place '''<tt>{{helpme}}</tt>''' on your [[Help:Talk page|talk page]] and ask your question there. Please remember to [[Wikipedia:Signatures|sign your name]] on talk pages by clicking [[File:Button sig.png|link=Wikipedia:How to sign your posts|alt=]] or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already loving Wikipedia you might want to consider being "[[Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User|adopted]]" by a more experienced editor or joining a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject|WikiProject]] to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory|here]] for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the [[Help:Edit summary|edit summary]] field. Happy editing! ''-- [[User:RP459|RP459]]'' [[User talk:RP459|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/RP459|Contributions]] 16:37, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
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== [[Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige]] --- Papphase your lies are laughable ==

You are spreading the same lies as this Bischof-Ralph or Ban Yoo user does. Are they your sockpuppets?
Ofcourse is Seiwert Fleige a recognized catholic bishop. He did get consecrated in Palmarian Catholic Church. This is a catholic church. So who does not recognize this? Maybe members of other churches. But do you want to mark all anglican bishops as "unrecognized" because other churches dont recognize them? NPOV is needed in wikipedia !
And it is very obvious that the pope of the Roman Catholic Church recognized his consecration since he did celebrate mass with him. Or do you want to explain again that Seiwert Fleige tricked the whole world with his costume dressing ? This is realy laughable !
And the constant lie that his consecrator Archbishop [[Pierre_Martin_Ngô_Đình_Thục]] was not Roman Catholic is very easy proven wrong you only need to study the information in wikipedia.
Why you use a shortmessage in shortnews to proofe that Napierski is a faker? This shows itself your lies and POV since the largest German Magazines Der SPIEGEL and Wirtschaftswoche explain that Napierski did find security problems in Ebay and offered to fix them but Ebay who wasnt able to fix them after some month didnt care. And the most reliable IT-Magazin in Germany IX - Magazin documented his scientific work in his area of braincomputing. Maybe you are not a liar but you just have a huge lack of informations then my latest version of the article can fill this lack:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=345104517&oldid=345100878
But if you are serious about what you said then it should be easy for you to prove that these informations are wrong.
And be aware that my article contains this warnings that you are talking about and I am not happy that they have been removed together with alot of other information.

--[[User:Templeknight|Templeknight]] ([[User talk:Templeknight|talk]]) 11:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

:Oh please, Napierski is well known for his strange antics, craving publicity. Currently is acting bishop, offering "real cross relics" for personal gain, posting souvenir documents as papal recognitions claiming to be "Professor" (which could actually give him some legal toruble in Germany, but no one takes him seriously enough, I guess). And, yes, that's faking. And if you are ''seriously'' suggesting that Napierski did in fact make grounds in braincomputing, you should have a look at his patents at DEPATISnet. Hell, this guy cant' even type and his "findings" are plain gibberish. Nothing of that ever worked. But i suspect you know all of that quite well, [[User:Templeknight|''Ralph'']].

Besides, I don't care which fringe church Fleige is part of, that he's recognized by the Roman Catholic Church is an outright lie, disproved by various documents from German dioceses. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase#top|talk]])

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige (2nd nomination)

2010-03-06T17:03:00Z

Papphase: /* Alfred Seiwert-Fleige */ +

User talk:Papphase

2010-03-06T16:46:57Z

Papphase: /* Stop your vandalism on the page Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige */ bye ralph

== Welcome ==
{| style="background-color:#F5FFFA; padding:0;" cellpadding="0"
|class="MainPageBG" style="border:1px solid lightgrey; background-color:lightgrey; vertical-align:top; color:#000000; font-size:85%"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top; background-color:lavender; padding:0;"
! <div style="margin:0; background-color:white; font-family:sans-serif; font-size:120%; font-weight:normal; border:1px solid lightgrey; text-align:left; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top:0.2em; padding-bottom:0.2em;">Hello, Papphase! '''[[Wikipedia:Introduction|Welcome]] to Wikipedia!''' Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Papphase|your contribution]]. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place '''<tt>{{helpme}}</tt>''' on your [[Help:Talk page|talk page]] and ask your question there. Please remember to [[Wikipedia:Signatures|sign your name]] on talk pages by clicking [[File:Button sig.png|link=Wikipedia:How to sign your posts|alt=]] or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already loving Wikipedia you might want to consider being "[[Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User|adopted]]" by a more experienced editor or joining a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject|WikiProject]] to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory|here]] for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the [[Help:Edit summary|edit summary]] field. Happy editing! ''-- [[User:RP459|RP459]]'' [[User talk:RP459|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/RP459|Contributions]] 16:37, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
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== [[Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige]] --- Papphase your lies are laughable ==

You are spreading the same lies as this Bischof-Ralph or Ban Yoo user does. Are they your sockpuppets?
Ofcourse is Seiwert Fleige a recognized catholic bishop. He did get consecrated in Palmarian Catholic Church. This is a catholic church. So who does not recognize this? Maybe members of other churches. But do you want to mark all anglican bishops as "unrecognized" because other churches dont recognize them? NPOV is needed in wikipedia !
And it is very obvious that the pope of the Roman Catholic Church recognized his consecration since he did celebrate mass with him. Or do you want to explain again that Seiwert Fleige tricked the whole world with his costume dressing ? This is realy laughable !
And the constant lie that his consecrator Archbishop [[Pierre_Martin_Ngô_Đình_Thục]] was not Roman Catholic is very easy proven wrong you only need to study the information in wikipedia.
Why you use a shortmessage in shortnews to proofe that Napierski is a faker? This shows itself your lies and POV since the largest German Magazines Der SPIEGEL and Wirtschaftswoche explain that Napierski did find security problems in Ebay and offered to fix them but Ebay who wasnt able to fix them after some month didnt care. And the most reliable IT-Magazin in Germany IX - Magazin documented his scientific work in his area of braincomputing. Maybe you are not a liar but you just have a huge lack of informations then my latest version of the article can fill this lack:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=345104517&oldid=345100878
But if you are serious about what you said then it should be easy for you to prove that these informations are wrong.
And be aware that my article contains this warnings that you are talking about and I am not happy that they have been removed together with alot of other information.

--[[User:Templeknight|Templeknight]] ([[User talk:Templeknight|talk]]) 11:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

:Oh please, Napierski is well known for his strange antics, craving publicity. Currently is acting bishop, offering "real cross relics" for personal gain, posting souvenir documents as papal recognitions claiming to be "Professor" (which could actually give him some legal toruble in Germany, but no one takes him seriously enough, I guess). And, yes, that's faking. And if you are ''seriously'' suggesting that Napierski did in fact make grounds in braincomputing, you should have a look at his patents at DEPATISnet. Hell, this guy cant' even type and his "findings" are plain gibberish. Nothing of that ever worked. But i suspect you know all of that quite well, ''Ralph''.

Besides, I don't care which fringe church Fleige is part of, that he's recognized by the Roman Catholic Church is an outright lie, disproved by various documents from German dioceses. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase#top|talk]])

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring

2010-03-06T14:43:42Z

Papphase: /* Alfred Seiwert-Fleige */ new section

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== [[User:Sanam001]] reported by [[User:Suresh.Varma.123|Suresh.Varma.123]] ([[User talk:Suresh.Varma.123|talk]]) (Result: Protected) ==

*[[Wikipedia:Three-revert rule|Three-revert rule]] violation on
{{Article|Malayala Sudra}}. {{3RRV|Sanam001}}: Time reported: 01:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

''Diffs are listed from oldest to newest, dates are in UTC''

# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347108418 16:02, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "[[WP:AES|â†]]Created page with '{{Infobox Ethnic group |group = MalayÄla SÅ©dra |popplace = [[Kerala]] |languages = [[Malayalam]] |religions = [[Hinduism]] |related = [[Nair|NÄyar]], [[K...'")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347109014 16:06, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "Correcting references")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347109173 16:07, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "/* Sat-sudra */ .correcting references")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347109306 16:07, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "/* Customs and practices */ .correcting references")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347110562 16:15, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "/* Sat-sudra */ reverting vandalism of article-discussion encouraged")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347112484 16:26, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "/* Classification */ -reverting vandalism by Anandks007")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347113093 16:29, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347112864 by [[Special:Contributions/Suresh.Varma.123|Suresh.Varma.123]] ([[User talk:Suresh.Varma.123|talk]])-Discussions encouraged")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347113997 16:34, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "Restoring original article by primary creator")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347114539 16:38, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347114140 by [[Special:Contributions/Suresh.Varma.123|Suresh.Varma.123]] ([[User talk:Suresh.Varma.123|talk]])-discussion encouraged before reverting")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347118104 16:57, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "restoring original article by primary creator - Users Suresh Varma 123 and Anandks007 are encouraged to participate in discussion")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347118773 17:01, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347118562 by [[Special:Contributions/Suresh.Varma.123|Suresh.Varma.123]] ([[User talk:Suresh.Varma.123|talk]])-discussions encouraged before vandalising")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347153218 20:13, 1 March 2010] (edit summary: "This was the original article and this version has more research articles cited and lacks peacock terms")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala%20Sudra&diff=prev&oldid=347204733 00:57, 2 March 2010] (edit summary: "This was the original article and this version has more research articles cited and lacks peacock terms-dispute resolution encouraged")

* Diff of warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASanam001&action=historysubmit&diff=347119761&oldid=347074452 here]

* '''Comments''' - Started the article and filled it with POV to further vandalize Nair related articles. This user has been indulging in propagating racial hatred for the past 3 months, by calling people from other castes as concubines and dogs. He was warned earlier to engage in talk rather than edit war, but ignored them all. A dispute ongoing in Nair talk page, but he is refraining from talking it out and is calling for arbitration, even as around 5-6 users have voiced against his POV pushing. —[[User:Suresh.Varma.123|Suresh.Varma.123]] ([[User talk:Suresh.Varma.123|talk]]) 01:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

*{{AN3|p}} - This is a duplicate of the report below on this page. -- '''[[User:Atama|Atama]]'''[[User talk:Atama|頭]] 22:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Caleb Murdock]] reported by [[User:2over0]] (Result: Topic ban) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Seth Material}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Caleb Murdock}}
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Caleb_Murdock&diff=346371606&oldid=266184639 Edit warring warning] (2010-02-25T16:28)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Caleb_Murdock&diff=prev&oldid=346856497 Notification of this request]

There has been no technical 3RR violation, but the following seems to fall under [[WP:edit warring|edit warring]]; I have not actually edited this particular article, but should be considered [[WP:INVOLVED]]. Between the 6th and the 20th of this month the article was quiet, though looking at the older history may be instructive. The following are reverts by [[User:Caleb Murdock]] over the last week:

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=345181236&oldid=342324218 There was nothing about my revisions that were not neutral. Verbal, it has already been established that you know nothing of the subject matter. Back off.] 2010-02-20T08:28 (revert; this is the first edit by anyone to that article in two weeks)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=346187075&oldid=346182639 Verbal has made no edits. He just doesn't like the edits that I made. Before you reverse all of my revisions, this needs to be discussed on the Discussion page. I can also call in MY friends!] 2010-02-24T23:27
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=346354249&oldid=346262518 Please see the Discussion page. The changes that I have been making are MORE NEUTRAL than the language that was there.] 2010-02-25T19:59
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=346368866&oldid=346357980 First, "claim" and "claimed" are on the list of words to avoid. Please see that page. Secondly, you have removed perfectly valid portions of the article for no good reason.] 2010-02-25T21:16
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=346550697&oldid=346465293 Verbal, for you to put a tag on this article after I spent hours making changes to satisfy you is simply provocative. Furthermore, you have made no new entry on the Discussion page to justify the tag.] 2010-02-26T20:11
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=346582708&oldid=346567764 I do not agree to the deletion of these portions. They are perfectly good portions of the article.] 2010-02-26T23:05
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=346722062&oldid=346669910 It takes a lot of research to come up with cites. In the mean time, the text can remain in situ. YOU need to explain why you want the information removed ON THE DISCUSSION PAGE.] 2010-02-27T18:29
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=346778599&oldid=346772957 It is only your opinion that the article needs to be trimmed. If you want certain sections to be removed, please state your case on the Discussion page.] 2010-02-27T23:56
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Material&diff=346849637&oldid=346843190 If it makes you happy, you are welcome to add back your tags, but I will NOT allow you to remove all my edits. It takes time to come up with those references.] 2010-02-28T09:28

There is plenty of discussion at [[Talk:Seth Material]] and [[Talk:Seth Material/GA1]], but also a fairly serious case of [[WP:edit warring|edit warring]] in support of apparent [[WP:OWN|article ownership]]. Several editors have expressed concerns with CM's edits, which is why I am here instead of [[WP:RFPP|RFPP]]. - [[User talk:2over0|2/0]] ([[Special:Contributions/2over0|cont.]]) 10:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
:I am clearly involved in this matter, but would like to add a few things I think are helpful (any admin can remove this if they feel it is in some way unnecessary or unhelpful, inc. 2/0). If you review Caleb's recent contributions to user talk pages, there is clear evidence of [[WP:CANVAS|canvassing]], as threatened above (see [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dreadstar&diff=prev&oldid=346853825 1], [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jack-A-Roe&diff=prev&oldid=346583289 2], [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gandalf61&diff=prev&oldid=346562435 3], [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gnostc&diff=prev&oldid=346561845 4]). Please also note the explicit threat of edit warring and disruptive behaviour posted to my talk page [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Verbal&diff=prev&oldid=346374621 "If you want an all-out editing war, then that can be arranged"] (I want no such thing). Other editors have commented on this and supported my position on the talk page. I have asked for review, in a hopefully neutrally worded statement at the appropriate [[WP:FTN|noticeboard]]. Two valid tags have also been removed again by Caleb (last of 2/0s diffs), and I will not restore them for now as I do not wish to be involved in this edit warring, despite them being fully justified. Caleb may be a good editor, but he seems too attached to this subject and his [[WP:OWN|own]] text to contribute usefully at present. [[User:Verbal|Verbal]] [[User talk:Verbal#top|chat]] 11:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

: Where am I supposed to defend myself? I'm not familiar with this procedure, so I'll do it here.

: The person who is engaging in edit warring is Verbal, and he is using the cloak of Wikipedia's rules to do it. For approximately three years (perhaps four, I'm not sure), Verbal has been attacking the article in various ways, and his attacks resulted in an enormous edit war about three years ago (perhaps two years, I'm not sure). Verbal is not a knowledgeable editor -- i.e., knowledgeable of the subject matter. When he first started editing the article several years ago, he made it clear that he was a skeptic, that he considered the article un-noteworthy, and that he wanted to cut it down or, preferably, eliminate it altogether. Thus his edits have always been in the direction of cutting out portions of the article. At that time, he used various Wiki rules to disparage the article -- un-noteworthy, in-universe, not neutral, unsourced, and others that I can't remember. He didn't prevail in any of those arguments except for the one about sources. He also put a slew of tags on the article which were eventually removed, the same tags that he has been putting on the article recently. Let me add that at that time, when the previous edit war occurred, Verbal did plenty of canvassing, and he called in a bunch of his skeptic friends. At that time, references were added at his insistence, and the article is now well sourced -- yet he continues to demand that more references be added. The result of that edit war was that someone nominated the article for deletion, and the ruling was Speedy Keep.

: So the article languished for a couple years. Everyone was exhausted from the edit war, and people (including me) were afraid to touch the article for fear another edit war would erupt. Recently, however, I decided to start working on it again. With an eye toward the skeptics, I decided to change some terminology which I felt would make the article MORE neutral. Verbal noticed what I was doing, and he rolled back ALL my edits without discussion -- even though they were edits which should have suited him. That was what started the current round of warring. Finally, I inserted terminology, at the behest of another editor, which apparently satisfied Verbal, since he didn't roll those edits back. But then he slapped tags on the article, the same tags he had slapped on it years ago and which had been satisfied. Then Verbal started to cut out portions of the article, and that wasn't acceptable to me, so I reverted his cuts. In the process of reverting his cuts, his tags got reverted also. Again, in an effort to satisfy Verbal, I started to add more references to the article, but Verbal wasn't satisfied by them because they were primary as opposed to third-party references, and he rolled back my references and restored his cuts. Verbal's current position seems to be that (1) the article should be cut down, (2) no further additions can be made, and (3) changes must be approved by him. When does one editor dictate to other editors how they should edit?

: Let me add that Verbal has never been willing to discuss issues on the Discussion page. I am far more willing to discuss matters than he is. He will make short, general comments about his wishes, but he won't discuss the specific language. For example, he wouldn't tell me what was wrong with my original edits, and now he won't explain why he wants certain passages cut out of the article, and he won't explain why he thinks no more primary references should be added.

: In my opinion, Verbal is a disruptive editor who is using the rules for cover. It appears to me that he is trying to block all future development of the article. But don't articles on Wikipedia usually grow with new information over time? Isn't that the way that Wikipedia works?

: My interest is in preventing Verbal from decimating the article. Having won a ruling of Speedy Keep, it isn't proper for Verbal to try to kill the article with a thousand cuts. The language that he is trying to cut out now is approximately the same language that was there when that ruling was made. Apparently, Verbal's excuse for making those cuts was because certain passages had sat with Citation Needed tags for a long time. But when I got to work dredging up those citations, Verbal rolled them back because he wasn't satisfied with them, and because I added a bit of new information to the article.

: Let me address the ownership issue: Wikipedia depends on knowledgeable editors to write the articles. Thus, most good articles have been developed by one or two knowledgeable people. If we didn't have knowledgeable editors on Wikipedia, many of the articles would be a jumble of information without clear organization. If those editors who make the lion's share of contributions feel a sense of ownership, that's only natural. The question is whether they block other editors' input. In my case, it varies. Some edits that others have made have remained, but others haven't. There is text in the article now that was inserted by other editors that I kept though I would have preferred to eliminate it. On the other hand, some editors have inserted information that I researched and found was erroneous, so I removed it. My interest is in having the best article possible.

: As the rules on Wikipedia have flourished, a bad situation has developed. The rules have given ammunition to some editors with controlling personalities whose interest is in restricting the encyclopedia instead of developing it. Armed with the rules, those editors go to various articles and attempt to dictate how the articles can be edited and developed. But a situation in which one editor can dictate how other editors edit is completely absurd. It is not in keeping with the spirit of Wikipedia, and it is not good for the encyclopedia as a whole. In the case of Verbal, I believe he has a clear agenda: to truncate or delete the Seth Material article because it conflicts with his skeptical world view. As I stated above, my opinion is that he is a disruptive editor. He is not communicative on the specifics, and his actions -- rolling back edits, cutting portions of the article, inserting tags that were previously resolved -- are extremely inflammatory.

: Let me add one thing that should be obvious: Verbal is free to educate himself on the subject matter and make additions to the article himself. For example, if he feels that the article needs more third-party cites, then let him do the research and add the cites himself. It is the cuts that I won't go along with. I'm happy to let his tags remain atop the article, but I object to his cuts. The article is not particularly long, and there is very little fat in it.

: A side note: The Seth Material article was originally part of the Jane Roberts article, and some of the edit warring occurred before the article was spun off.--[[User:Caleb Murdock|Caleb Murdock]] ([[User talk:Caleb Murdock|talk]]) 19:56, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

:: While I haven't been directly involved in this editing dispute, I have advised and warned Caleb for his combative attitudes. He has taken it to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BullRangifer#Seth_Material my talk page], where I have finally had to terminate the discussion with the following:

::* "I doubt you are crazy. You have just misunderstood the purpose of Wikipedia, and after all this time, that's a serious matter and indicates you don't belong here. We're writing an encyclopedia. Truth is secondary to [[WP:V|verifiability]]: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is '''verifiability, not truth'''.") You are using Wikipedia as a webhost to advocate for your understanding of "the truth". That's called "[[WP:Advocacy|advocacy]]", and it's forbidden here. I think it's time for you to go elsewhere. Write whatever you want on your own website, just not here. End of discussion."

:: I hope that Caleb will follow that advice because nothing else has worked. -- [[User:BullRangifer|Brangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) 07:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Result''' - I'm imposing a topic ban of [[User:Caleb Murdock]] from editing the [[Seth Material]] article. His [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Caleb_Murdock&diff=347462179&oldid=347461096 recent offer] to accept a 1RR falls short of the improvement in his compliance with policy that would be needed, since he says "If verbal will not collaborate, then I may indeed use that one revert a day to protect the article from his hatchet." This seems to be a declaration of intention to continue an edit war. I'm not optimistic that Murdock will eventually agree to collaborate in the normal way, but if he does so, a lifting of the topic ban could be considered. I'm offering this topic ban for review at [[WP:AN]]. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 15:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

:: That sounds like a good solution. Let's hope that he will gain some experience from editing other articles - ones to which he isn't so emotionally attached - and comes to understand our policies better. I am banning him from my talk page, something which I very rarely do. He just doesn't know when to stop. -- [[User:BullRangifer|Brangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) 16:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

::: He needs to have a notice of this topic ban placed on his talk page. -- [[User:BullRangifer|Brangifer]] ([[User talk:BullRangifer|talk]]) 16:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:EmilJ]] and [[User:Yopie]] reported by [[User:Nmate]] (Result: Stale ) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk}} 
'''User being reported:''' 
{{userlinks|Yopie}}
{{userlinks|EmilJ}}

* Diff of warnings:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EmilJ&diff=346769385&oldid=345922391]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk%3AYopie#Close_to_3RR_-_please_use_the_talk_page]

* Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ATom%C3%A1%C5%A1_Garrigue_Masaryk#What_kind_of_vandalism_did_you_identify_on_this_article.3F]

Technically they are no in violation of 3RR. So I would rather show 3 diffs when Yopie was close to it:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom%C3%A1%C5%A1_Garrigue_Masaryk&diff=346518285&oldid=346509491 ,17:03, 26 February 2010] 
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom%C3%A1%C5%A1_Garrigue_Masaryk&diff=346563054&oldid=346525004 ,21:17, 26 February 2010] 
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom%C3%A1%C5%A1_Garrigue_Masaryk&diff=346657861&oldid=346655783 ,9:31, 27 February 2010]

Comments: 

I have a disagreement with [[user:EmilJ|EmilJ]] and [[user:Yopie|Yopie]] on the article Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk that started on 26 February, 2010. Technically they are no in violation of 3RR. However, the users has absolutely ignored the discussion on the talk page which is a very serious sign of a fundamentally uncooperative attitude to editing. Interesting also to note that EmilJ told me to "get a consensus on the talk page" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom%C3%A1%C5%A1_Garrigue_Masaryk&diff=347071183&oldid=347053022]
on which he shows no interest to participate in discussion.
--[[User:Nmate|Nmate]] ([[User talk:Nmate|talk]]) 18:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)



*{{AN3|s}} What a silly thing to edit war over though. If any of the parties continue, they will be blocked. [[User:Tiptoety|Tiptoety]] [[User talk:Tiptoety|talk]] 21:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Drummer182]] reported by [[User:Bdb484]] (Result: protected) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Drum}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Drummer182}}

Previous version reverted to: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=163135602]


* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=164962966]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=226991440]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=244122451]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=244365491]
* 5th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=288265429]
* 6th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=288681509]
* 7th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=288734421]
* 8th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=288744545]
* 9th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=293095163]
* 10th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=293715782]
* 11th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=307166089]
* 12th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=322132492]
* 13th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=323472956]
* 14th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=345876471]
* 15th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=346497305]
* 16th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum&diff=prev&oldid=347141990]
* 17th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum_kit&diff=347531209&oldid=347522972]


Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Drummer182&diff=346505245&oldid=346100762]


Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Drummer182 Discusson conducted on talk page]

Comments: 

Although it seems to have gone undetected until last month, this editor has been edit warring on [[Drum]] and [[Drum kit]] since 2007. Although I left a plenty-friendly warning about our EL policy and edit warring, he is unapologetic.

As you'll see at his talk page, he acknowledges that the links he's adding are to his own advertising-driven websites, and he says he won't stop "until fairness and common sense enter this picture."

These IPs could be socks or meatpuppets, as their only edits are to restore Drummer182's links:
*{{IP|User:141.152.45.199}}
*{{IP|User:96.248.18.192}}

— [[User:Bdb484|Bdb484]] ([[User talk:Bdb484|talk]]) 23:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
*{{AN3|p}} / Flyguy649 --[[User:Slakr|slakr]]\ [[User talk:Slakr|talk]] / 18:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:PiCO]] reported by [[User:Deadtotruth]] (Result: Declined) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Genesis creation myth}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|PiCo}}



The editor PiCo has engaged in an edit war to support a single POV for the Genesis creation myth article. He has consistently deleted properly referenced information in the Lead, Prologue, Philo, and Creationism sections that provide information on Jewish/Christian/Scientific research that is pertinent to this article. He has often replaced the information on Jewish/Christian/Scientific research with information of a Pro-babylonian creation myth point of view. Furthermore various editors on the talk page and in the edit comments have requested that he cease wholesale deletion of properly referenced information. PiCo’s edit war is a daily event wherein he routinely deletes whole sections often leaving the article in a state of disrepair.

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347272404]
Deletion of Ex Nihilo refs (POV/unwarranted deletion?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347272237]
Deletion of Ex Nihilo refs (POV/unwarranted deletion?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347271409]
Deleted section to remove all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo (POV violation/vandalism?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347271192]
Deleted all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo in lead (POV/unwarranted deletion?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347025539]
Deleted information and refs that were contrary to the Babylonian origin hypothesis (POV)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347023884]
Deleted section to remove all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo (POV violation/vandalism?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347023169]
Deleted section to remove all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo (POV violation/vandalism?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347023884]
Deleted section to remove all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo (POV violation/vandalism?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346798570]
Deleted section to remove all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo (POV violation/vandalism?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346796524]
Deleted section to remove all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo (POV violation/vandalism?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346645176]
Deleted all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo in lead (POV/unwarranted deletion?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346615443]
Deleted all information and refs concerning Jewish and Christian interpretations in lead (POV/unwarranted deletion?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346614021]
Deleted section to remove all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo/Pre-Creation (POV violation/vandalism?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346613853]
Noleander requests Pico revert his deletion of the prologue section
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346612043]
Deleted information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo in lead (POV/unwarranted deletion?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346610721]
Nefariousski requests that pico stop making wholesale edits and deltions of sourced material. Deleted information concerning philo (POV)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346609437]
Deleted section to remove all information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo/Pre-Creation (POV violation/vandalism?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346433826]
Deleted information and refs concerning Ex Nihilo in lead (POV/unwarranted deletion?)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=341808947]
Deleted information concerning anti-babylonian motif in lead (POV)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=341607122]
Deleted information and refs concerning creationism in lead and inserted Pro-Babylonian information (POV)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=341462639]
Deleted Pro-Creationism info and refs and inserted anti-creationism info and refs (POV)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=341461987]
Deleted Pro-Creationism info and refs in lead (POV see Pico’s editing comments at top of page of evidence of POV)


Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [link]

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PiCo&diff=prev&oldid=346748554]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PiCo&diff=prev&oldid=346754883]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PiCo&diff=prev&oldid=346808258]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PiCo&diff=prev&oldid=346808580]


Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [diff]

*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=346826786]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Genesis_creation_myth&diff=prev&oldid=347222255]


[[User:Deadtotruth|Deadtotruth]] ([[User talk:Deadtotruth|talk]]) 20:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

*{{AN3|d}} - You have failed to provide evidence that [[WP:3RR]] was broken, your evidence for that was a series of messages left for the editor being accused. You haven't shown even a single true revert, but rather a series of content removals you object to. I suggest pursuing [[WP:DR|dispute resolution]] if you can't resolve this through regular discussion with the editor. -- '''[[User:Atama|Atama]]'''[[User talk:Atama|頭]] 22:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Chapecoense]] reported by [[User:Sandman888]] (Result: No violation) ==

'''Page:''' [[FC Barcelona]] 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Chapecoense}}



Previous version reverted to: [diff preferred, link permitted]


* 1st revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=FC_Barcelona&oldid=347389493
* 2nd revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=FC_Barcelona&oldid=347382512
* 3rd revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=FC_Barcelona&oldid=347221736
* 4th revert: [diff]




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chapecoense&oldid=347390648


Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:FC_Barcelona

Comments: This user is previously banned for edit warring on [[FC Barcelona season 2009-10]], and has used suckpuppets (plain IP) to circumvent the ban. '''ALSO''' the user is now having an edit war [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=FC_Barcelona_season_2009%E2%80%9310&action=history|here]] 


[[User:Sandman888|Sandman888]] ([[User talk:Sandman888|talk]]) 23:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment added, [[User:Sandman888|Sandman888]] ([[User talk:Sandman888|talk]]) 17:25, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

{{AN3|nv}} - I don't see more than 3 reverts in more than 24 hours. But be aware of [[WP:OUCH]], as you have reverted just as many times as the person you are reporting. If I blocked, I would have to block both of you. I see that there is now a discussion on the talk page of the article, deal with this there (and I'll also note that Chapecoense participated in the discussion before you did). -- '''[[User:Atama|Atama]]'''[[User talk:Atama|頭]] 21:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Malke_2010]] reported by [[User:izauze]] (Result: No violation) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Tea Party movement}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Malke 2010}}



Previous version reverted to: [diff preferred, link permitted]


* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&action=historysubmit&diff=347454495&oldid=347454346]
of my 03:45 edit, found here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&oldid=347442300]

:::The edit referred to in this diff [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&action=historysubmit&diff=347454495&oldid=347454346] makes a false claim about the subject of the edit and is unsupported by the citation. I removed it within the guidelines of [[WP:BLP]] [[WP:SYN]] and [[WP:NPOV]].[[User talk:Malke 2010|Malke]][[Special:Contributions/Malke 2010|2010]] 17:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The edit by I
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&action=historysubmit&diff=347374954&oldid=347374116]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&action=historysubmit&diff=347370843&oldid=347370200]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&action=historysubmit&diff=347367017&oldid=347365558] this might require some context. This is a revert of ''my'' revert. I utilized the revert option because this specific issue was under discussion on the talk page between [[user:Malke 2010]] and [[user:happysomeone]]. Before I saw a consensus reached, Malke re-inserted the questionable material AND deleted material I had added, both in the same edit. Even though we had both tried to direct Malke to engage us on the talk board.

::This is not an accurate description of the editing or the discussions at that time. There was also no 'consensus' reached. I consistently used the talk page and at one point stated my objection to the continuous reverts of my edits without discussion. Please allow me time to collect diffs of the discussion. Thanks.[[User talk:Malke 2010|Malke]][[Special:Contributions/Malke 2010|2010]] 14:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
This was the result of an edit war with Happysomeone that Happysomeone tried to mediate here:
:: ''20:08, 2 March 2010 Happysomeone (talk | contribs) (70,368 bytes) (Undid revision 347356626 by Malke 2010 (talk)OK, lets discuss at the TALK page first, please, before more editing. Please follow WP:BRD)''




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: 21:09 on discussion board: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATea_Party_movement&action=historysubmit&diff=347369684&oldid=347369552]

Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: 22:19 by [user:happysomeone] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATea_Party_movement&action=historysubmit&diff=347383954&oldid=347379138]

Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATea_Party_movement&action=historysubmit&diff=347423927&oldid=347422961]
[user:happysomeone] agreed with these concerns at 02:46

Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: final notice [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347476532&oldid=347456833]


Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: The discussion was a long messy process, proably not well suited to a Diff. Most of the discussion can be seen here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tea_Party_movement#the_big_Origins_edit]
with some additional material also found here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tea_Party_movement#Fox.3EProblem_sentence.3F]

Comments: 
First of all, I'm fairly new here, so excuse me if any of this form is not filled out correctly.

There are a good deal more reverts done within the last 24 hours (and a few more just beyond), but with the overwhelming number of his edits and how complicated and tangled things had become over the course of the last 24 hours, it has become difficult to dig them all out. If he had simply ''REVERTED'' the edits it would be easier to document, but he almost never did that, opting instead to edit the article to copy-paste the material back to the way he wanted it - erasing the contributions of other editors. Throughout the day (and to some degree beforehand as well) he showed no regard for the BRD model, or for [[WP:AGF]] in regard to our well-sourced contributions, nor did he [[WP:FOC]], he ignored [[WP:EW]] and [[WP:3rr]] warnings regarding his boundary crossing, and engaged in seemingly evasive tactics when these issues are addressed by myself and other editors. He reverts changes made by other editors without even some kind of compromise edit that adresses some of the concerns the edit tried to address. In my own personal opinion, his presence has consistently had a negative influence on the progress of the article and the quality of the dialogue on the talk page, and I find him to be a constant NPOV concern. A review of the talk page shows that if you search for "WP:" citations, almost every single time it is either Malke himself or someone pointing out an issue to Malke. I would ask why that is. He had to be repeatedly asked to stop removing material and reverting edits and to engage in straightforward discussion by multiple editors. When I thought it was all over and that he had finally realized he needed to discuss, I see it was done again. I finally resorted to this report as essentially a last resort with the hopes that if nothing else, this process might force a realization of his behavior so that things might improve in the future, if he is allowed to continue utilizing his editing priveledges here. I truly only want what is best for the article.

--[[User:Izauze|Izauze]] ([[User talk:Izauze|talk]]) 09:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

::Hello, I just saw this as Izauze has failed to notify me on my talk page. There is currently a dispute by Happysomeone and Izauze about the content of a paragraph I wrote that they keep deleting. I will collect diffs and you will see that both Happysomeone and Izauze are well beyond 3RR as they did continous outright reverts of my edits. My last edit was the removal of a completely false claim by Izauze that was not at all supported by the article he was citing. Please give me the time to collect diffs. Thanks.[[User talk:Malke 2010|Malke]][[Special:Contributions/Malke 2010|2010]] 14:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Reverts by [[User:Happysomeone|Happysomeone]]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347357568]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347357568]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347357802]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347348903]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347355630]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347195518]

Reverts by [[User:Izauze|Izauze]]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347255905]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347342878]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347365558]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347370200]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347374116]

::Please give me time to collect diffs of the talk page discussion. Thanks.[[User talk:Malke 2010|Malke]][[Special:Contributions/Malke 2010|2010]] 15:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Talk page diffs. I made 19 entries all tolled on the talk page.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347313298]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347325103]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347339330]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347347098]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347348674]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347357549]

Please don’t revert: They were both reverting me without discussing first.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347358112]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347359370]

cooperating with Happysomeone’s wishes

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347360520]

put the Carender paragraph where Happysomeone asked for it to be

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347364022]

Claim by Izauze that I’m not discussing on talk page (he seems not be paying attention)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347366770]

again, another claim this time by Happysomeone

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347376623]

answered question by Happysomeone about sources

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347414484]

Left message on Happysomeone’s talk page

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHappysomeone&action=historysubmit&diff=347423300&oldid=346550113]

There is one more diff I'd like to add. I'll be back with it in a bit. I apologize for the number of diffs but I was using the talk page.

In general, the editors on the Tea Party Movement talk page have been working well together for a long while now including myself and Happysomeone. In fact, we'd just recently amicably worked out a compromise on an edit without any problems.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347422634] Izauze is new there. This section that is being edited in all these diffs was also what he called his first big contribution to Wikipedia.[[User talk:Malke 2010|Malke]][[Special:Contributions/Malke 2010|2010]] 17:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

:::I did not see where I was required to post the notification on his talk page. (Again, apologize for the naivite of a newcomer.) I thought the three or four warnings and the seperate notification on the talk page would be sufficient.

:::And since it appears as if Malke 2010 is trying to shift responsibility here to the people who were trying to make him engage us on the talk page before continuing to delete material and such, I will try to narrativize the situation for clarity.

:::A number of editors were having difficulties building a sensible history section for The Tea Party Movement, as seen in the discussion here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tea_Party_movement#Significance_of_first_paragraphs_under_The_Protests] How to make the origins more complete had been batted around, and they asked for someone to take a stab at it. I let them know I did some digging, found some sources, and was building something I would add shortly.

:::I spent a lot of time creating the most complete, well-researched, well-sourced origins section (with 3 subsections) I could and posted the whole thing as one edit early yesterday. Recognizing the size of the contribution, I immediately started a discussion. In this discussion Malke_2010 graciously praised my contribution. I knew the entry was just a starting point and that many edits would occur to it, but what I did not expect that valid, sourced, significant material would be deleted repeatedly from it whole cloth in a flurry of edits from one individual. But that's what happened. (If you look at about 17:00 on march 2nd you'll see almost 20 Malke edits ''in a row'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tea_Party_movement&offset=20100302193145&action=history]) I added this material and Malke reverted it. Usually without discussion (until someone brought it up to HIM) flagrantly ignoring the [[WP:BRD]] model. Occasionally, I would examine what he had deleted and try to ascertain what his objections might have been, and make changes to it in order to not lose it entirely. (THIS is what he is referencing in some of the above DIFFs - my attempt to preserve my good faith additions through compromise edits instead of whole-cloth deletions.) In my edit descriptions (and in happysomeones) we consistently tried to refer him to the talk page. You can see people trying to engage his edits on the talk page here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347253822&oldid=347211475] here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347332946&oldid=347331159] here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347344011&oldid=347339330] here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347355420&oldid=347354705] here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347359606&oldid=347359370] another editor expresses frustration here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347358380&oldid=347358112] another Malke revert was questioned here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347365885&oldid=347364022] (after this particular inquiry, he agreed that I could restore the information in question, and then deleted chunks of it again after I did, and reported it as one of MY supposed "reverts" above) (he is also asked to refrain from any future deletions or large changes w/o discussion (which he apparently ignores)), another editor repeats a request for a response re: his cites (which Malke again does not respond to) here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347369214&oldid=347368887], he is warned about [[WP:EW]] edit warring and his covert revert is again questioned here:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347369772&oldid=347369684], he is again reminded not to [[WP:EW]] edit war and told that his edit was reverted (which is one of the ones he reported me for above) because it had not yet reached consensus here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347369772&oldid=347369684], I expressed frustration about ANOTHER reverted edit here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347376277&oldid=347375664], the other editor AGAIN asks for a response to his cites here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347374297&oldid=347373680], he is again politely asked by another editor to use the talk page here (which i expressed agreement with): [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347375664&oldid=347375198], he is again asked not to delete valid sourced information here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347378646&oldid=347378096], another editor again asks him to respond to his points, and also reminds him of possible disregard of [[WP:BRD]], [[WP:EW]], and [[WP:3RR]] and reminds him to not continue skipping the consensus process, and not to ignore or evade attempts to address the issue here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347383954&oldid=347379138], another editor reminds him to stick to the matter at hand and not attempt to divert here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347396776&oldid=347395683],

:::and that's just part of it in regards to this ONE section (he made additional reverts re: the Fox News section). As you can see, while things stayed generally civil in tone, it got pretty messy. It was a real flurry of activity for a while and became hard to follow everything that was going on.

:::Yes, he was using the talk page, but he was continuing to edit and revert people's contributions (and adding material that was still in the process of consensus-building) WHILE he was partipating on the talk page. And much of that participation was diversionary.

:::He says all the editors have been working well there together. I will agree that all the editors have done a very good job of remaining civil in their dealings with Malke 2010 and everyone has maintained a generally positive tone, but his lack of adherence to guidlines and procedures is a constant issue for them as well. As I said, almost every [[WP:XX]] site on the talk page is either directed ''at'' him or is coming from him. He never seems to think to ask himself why that is. That the others have tried to tolerate this and work through it is admirable, but I believe someone from the administration needs to make things more clear for him.

:::and I don't understand how he can claim that this report is part of a plot to control one paragraph of quotations he added, when ample proof of our generous and good faith attempts to find a compromise and a workable consensus that respected and addressed his concerns (''despite'' his [[WP:EW]])are clearly evidenced here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=347431062&oldid=347424587] (as well as in the surrounding posts).

:::I think the matter will be quite clear to anyone who reviews the details of what went on yesterday in both the edits and the talk page (unfortunately it seems like a LOT to review). Hopefully it can be used to find a useful solution and both Malke 2010 and the article will benefit from it. I definitely harbor no ill will, I just don't want him to be a disruptive force any longer. Anything that helps achieve that is well appreciated. Thanks. --[[User:Izauze|Izauze]] ([[User talk:Izauze|talk]]) 19:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

:I did answer Happysomeone's request for a source for the Carender edit. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=prev&oldid=347414484]. Happysomeone apparently had this quote confused with something else and believed it was multiple quotes run together. I came back and provided the quote and the source on the talk page so he could see it. Also, I note the other editors aren't here supporting claims that I don't get on well over on TPM, nor do I see diffs to support said claims.[[User talk:Malke 2010|Malke]][[Special:Contributions/Malke 2010|2010]] 20:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

:::I would prefer not to drag other editors into this if it's not necessary, though I'm sure if you interviewed them where they could speak freely, they would be able to provide a more long-term picture of Malke 2010's presence that would expand and illuminate my case. My own citation of this was just to notate how often people cite [[WP:XX]] to him, but if a few diffs of people's dealings with him are beneficial, I can try to provide that as well, though obviously I can't be too comprehensive in regard to everything contained in the archives and such.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=340735461&oldid=340731720] here is editor Roygoldsmith informing him that it is not appropriate to delete peoples well-sourced contributions citing NPOV.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=340924080&oldid=340798016] here is the same editor struggling to explain to him that contributions must be made on the basis of verifiability, not his/her opinion.

([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=340741776&oldid=340737344] here is Malke 2010 calling the article racist)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=341394024&oldid=341205500] another editor bemoans deleted material, calling it a sad disruption.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=341402623&oldid=341397541] in response, malke again calls the article racist "might want to rethink this article; it's shameful, gross, dumb, and racist", does not assume good faith, and engages in a possible personal attack.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=341555181&oldid=341538829] the editor responds, reprimands him/her for his lack of good faith and personal attack

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=340736742&oldid=340735461] malke again calls the article racist and makes another deletion as a first resort.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=341394897&oldid=341394024] An editor reponds to a malke post to remind everyone that "This entire article is obviously undergoing a complete rewrite that has completely gone off the rails re: WP:NPOV."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=344552722&oldid=344544535] Editor scribner asks: No offense but it seems pretty clear that Malke2010 is an advocate of the movement and thus not in a position make impartial judgments or edits. Do we have some good impartial editors that could clean up this article and look over Malke2010's edits?

My response follows: I agree. I don't necessarily think that Malke2010 can't make valuable contributions (or that s/he hasn't already), but the repeated advocacy seems to call for some additional scrutiny.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tea_Party_movement&diff=341564005&oldid=341555181] an editor again asks Malke to focus on sources instead of his/her opinion.

The above represents only about the top 1/8th of the current talk page (not including the many archives). Malke has made no secret about his personal POV regarding how he think the movement and the reaction to it should be protrayed. Occasionally he makes additions, but all too often he simply deletes or scrubs things he doesn't like and which don't agree with his POV of events... and he does so citing [[WP:NPOV]]. As a result, the article seems to slowly become a patchwork of leftover disconnected decontextualized material he didn't feel the need to delete, and the article as a whole has suffered as a result. When discussing these disruptions he rails about his point of view of the movement, asserting it as the right view, without regard for the concept of verifiability. He doesn't seem to understand what being an impartial editor compiling information from other sources is all about. And his responses thus far have only further demonstrated to me that he is not willing to examine his own behavior, which reinforces my belief that external forces need to be applied in order to achieve a lasting result.
--[[User:Izauze|Izauze]] ([[User talk:Izauze|talk]]) 21:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Sysops: I believe that we can resolve this issue ourselves, given enough time. There is no need to block anyone as yet.

Editors of Tea Party movement: Please gather at the Tea Party movement talk page and read the lower part of the section on Fox>Problem Sentence. We have time to resolve this. --[[User:RoyGoldsmith|RoyGoldsmith]] ([[User talk:RoyGoldsmith|talk]]) 22:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

::Actually, the characterizations of me by Izauze has gone beyond the pale here. I am being attacked here. I'm asking an admin to please rule here. This editor is out of control and I don't appreciate the characterization of my good faith edits. When I first arrived on the TPM page there wasn't much activity and believe me that page was in terrible shape. The edits on the cartoons alone were fairly shocking. My edit summaries and comments on the talk page are entirely appropriate.

::I look at these diffs and I don't see me going on rants calling edits racist, etc. and I'm sure the admins don't either. But the statements by Izauze are too much here and I'd like something done to stop this. And as you can see, the characterization of me is again not backed up by diffs. In fact, there's been every little editing on the article by me for a long time. We've been taking this long to discuss edits.[[User talk:Malke 2010|Malke]][[Special:Contributions/Malke 2010|2010]] 22:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Per my understanding of the listing guidelines, I don't intend to dispute Malke2010 here. The information provided above is only to present as complete a picture I could in a straightforward manner. I do not intend to attack him or insult him as a person. --[[User:Izauze|Izauze]] ([[User talk:Izauze|talk]]) 23:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

{{AN3|nv}} - I don't see 4 or more reverts by Malke in a 24 hour period. I don't see any user talk warnings given to Malke despite what Izauze claims, or even a notice that this report was created (and yes, I checked the talk page history). The only thing I see is a big dispute on the talk page of the article, which is nothing unusual. Even in the report above, Izauze admitted that there weren't actual ''reverts'' occurring. I see nothing actionable. -- '''[[User:Atama|Atama]]'''[[User talk:Atama|頭]] 22:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:SamHumphrey1985]] reported by [[User:Old Moonraker|Old Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Old Moonraker|talk]]) (Result: warned) ==

*[[Wikipedia:Three-revert rule|Three-revert rule]] violation on
{{Article|Richard Mabey}}. {{3RRV|SamHumphrey1985}}: Time reported: 17:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

''Diffs are listed from oldest to newest, dates are in UTC''

# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard%20Mabey&diff=prev&oldid=347488343 10:54, 3 March 2010] (edit summary: "")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard%20Mabey&diff=prev&oldid=347488494 10:56, 3 March 2010] (edit summary: "")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard%20Mabey&diff=prev&oldid=347490086 11:11, 3 March 2010] (edit summary: "")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard%20Mabey&diff=prev&oldid=347514800 14:43, 3 March 2010] (edit summary: "")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard%20Mabey&diff=prev&oldid=347515530 14:50, 3 March 2010] (edit summary: "")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard%20Mabey&diff=prev&oldid=347535796 17:02, 3 March 2010] (edit summary: "Please can we keep it like this. This is accurate and precice. I have, again, made changes at the behest of the author. Please don't change.")

* Diff of warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SamHumphrey1985&diff=347518057&oldid=347515797 here]
--[[User:Old Moonraker|Old Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Old Moonraker|talk]]) 17:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::I just 3RR warned the user before I saw this. D'oh. [[User:SGGH|SGGH]] [[User_talk:SGGH|ping!]] 21:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

*{{AN3|w}} — looks like he's stopped for now. Feel free to re-open if he resumes. --[[User:Slakr|slakr]]\ [[User talk:Slakr|talk]] / 18:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:NickCT]] reported by [[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:mbz1|talk]]) (Result: declined) ==

#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad_al-Durrah_incident&action=historysubmit&diff=347170780&oldid=347168397]
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad_al-Durrah_incident&action=historysubmit&diff=347414582&oldid=347374399]
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad_al-Durrah_incident&action=historysubmit&diff=347512128&oldid=347481066]
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMuhammad_al-Durrah_incident&action=historysubmit&diff=347553205&oldid=347552576]

Not excactly in 24 hours, but [[User:NickCT]] was [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Result notified about the [[WP:ARBPIA]] editing restrictions]] in the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#NickCT_and_Soledad22 Arbitration/Enforcement case against him]. In spite of that the user goes on with edit warring.--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 21:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:See [[User_talk:PhilKnight#Striking_comments_from_banned_editors.3F|this]] discussion. Mbz - This posting is counterproductive. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 21:15, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::'''Withdraw''' Hopefully Nick got the message :) --[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 02:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Not fooling anyone Mbz. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 13:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
*{{AN3|d}} Also, keep in mind, that banned editors evading a ban are not permitted to edit articles / random talk pages, and the edits they make can be reverted with the same exception to the 3RR as vandalism. --[[User:Slakr|slakr]]\ [[User talk:Slakr|talk]] / 18:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Hooliganb]] reported by [[User:Bold Clone]] (result: page protected) ==

#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347526975]
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347576286]
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347579715]
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347584996]
--[[User:Bold Clone|Bold Clone]] ([[User talk:Bold Clone|talk]]) 22:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
*{{AN3|p}} / {{User|SarekOfVulcan}} --[[User:Slakr|slakr]]\ [[User talk:Slakr|talk]] / 18:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Badmintonhist]] reported by [[User:Blaxthos]] (Result: Stale ) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Countdown with Keith Olbermann}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Badmintonhist}}



Previous version reverted to: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Countdown_with_Keith_Olbermann&curid=1263491&diff=347509433&oldid=347318029 08:00 EST]


* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Countdown_with_Keith_Olbermann&curid=1263491&diff=347528321&oldid=347509433 10:16 EST]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Countdown_with_Keith_Olbermann&curid=1263491&diff=347597721&oldid=347589980 16:48 EST]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Countdown_with_Keith_Olbermann&curid=1263491&diff=347604043&oldid=347602756 17:25 EST]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Countdown_with_Keith_Olbermann&curid=1263491&diff=347610749&oldid=347607829 18:08 EST]




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Badmintonhist&diff=prev&oldid=347612097 3RR warning] was issued, though he got the 4th revert in before I could issue it.

Comments: Badmintonhist is a longtime, established editor who is well familiar with this most fundamental of rules. 


//[[USER:Blaxthos|Blaxthos]] ( [[User Talk:Blaxthos|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Blaxthos|c]] ) 00:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
*{{AN3|s}} It appears that since this report was filed, discussion has started taking place on the articles talk page and the instigator has logged off. I will add the article to my watchlist, if they start up again a block will be in order. [[User:Tiptoety|Tiptoety]] [[User talk:Tiptoety|talk]] 21:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Ctjf83]] reported by [[MaverickandGoose]] (Result: no vio) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Homosexual agenda}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|<Ctjf83}}



Previous version reverted to: [diff preferred, link permitted]


* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homosexual_agenda&diff=347636424&oldid=347635167]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homosexual_agenda&diff=347634015&oldid=347633902]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homosexual_agenda&diff=347628944&oldid=347624383]
* 4th revert: [diff]




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [link]

[[Ctjf83]] violated 3RR by continuously reverting edits of two different editors, and then mislabeled them vandalism
:Are you referring to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homosexual_agenda&diff=next&oldid=347634291 this] unexplained removal of content from you? [[User:Ctjf83|CTJF83]] [[User Talk:Ctjf83|chat]] 05:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


: '''Comment:''' [[User:MaverickandGoose|MaverickandGoose]] seems to be making the same edits as IP editor {{ipuser|99.237.122.105}}, which puts this into an edit war on his side while Ctjf83 has only three edits. At least two editors have reverted the changes. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 03:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::Reporter is a probable sock of [[User:Brucejenner]] [[User:Ctjf83|CTJF83]] [[User Talk:Ctjf83|chat]] 03:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
*{{AN3|nve}} --[[User:Slakr|slakr]]\ [[User talk:Slakr|talk]] / 19:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Bold Clone]] reported by [[User:Hooliganb]] (Result: page protected) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Power ring (DC Comics)}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Bold Clone}}

Previous version reverted to: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347526975]

* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347549454]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347579228]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347580003]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&oldid=347596510]

Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Power_ring_(DC_Comics)&action=history]
in comment on 21:39, 3 March 2010 Hooliganb (talk | contribs) (44,841 bytes)
(please, this is not your article where you make executive decisions. let's find a concensus before changing this again. another reversion will be 4 reverts; see [[WP:3RR]])

Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Power_ring_(DC_Comics)#Length_of_the_ring_entries]

Comments: 
After trying to open up discussion to finding some kind of resolution and thoroughly explaining my point of view, I was met with a complete disinterest in trying to find some kind of compromise and unwillingness to listen to any other opinion on the content of the article. Where as my edits attempted to incorporate the changes this editor made, he preferred to completely undo everything that I had changed even though it didn't all fall under the explanation he provided for his reverts. I'll admit to regularly editing the article in question and cleaning up other people's changes, but not blindly blank things they've done without reason.

*{{AN3|protectedexplain}} I should probably block both of you, but instead, I'll let you work it out on Talk. [[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 17:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Suresh.Varma.123|Suresh.Varma.123]] reported by [[UserSanam001]] (Result: Protected ) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Malayala Sudra}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Suresh.Varma.123|Suresh.Varma.123}}{{userlinks|Anandks007}}



Previous version reverted to: [diff preferred, link permitted]


* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala_Sudra&action=historysubmit&diff=347119010&oldid=347118773]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala_Sudra&action=historysubmit&diff=347118562&oldid=347118104]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala_Sudra&action=historysubmit&diff=347115295&oldid=347114629]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malayala_Sudra&action=historysubmit&diff=347112864&oldid=347112484]




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Suresh.Varma.123#Take_a_look_at_Sanam.27s_latest_vandalism]


Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMalayala_Sudra&action=historysubmit&diff=347122821&oldid=347121405]

Comments: This edit war in malayala sudra page is arising in continuance of the content dispute in nayar article. Since WP : 30 and multi party discussion failed in the nayar page as user suresh.varma.123 declined my efforts of next level of dispute resolution .
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/_Nayar-content_dispute-3O_and_consensus_failed]
The source of encouragement is meat puppetry by user [[User:Anandks007]] is the following link
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nair#Reverting_vandalism_by_Sanam001]. User [[User:Anandks007]] has publically called for supporting edit wars in nayar and allied pages against me in bad faith.

I am still continuing to try to focus on the content dispute [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nair#Focusing_on_Dispute_resolution_options-reiteration]

--[[User:Sanam001|Sanam001]] ([[User talk:Sanam001|talk]]) 12:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

*{{AN3|p}} by {{admin|SarekOfVulcan}}. [[User:Tiptoety|Tiptoety]] [[User talk:Tiptoety|talk]] 21:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Undefeatedcooler]] reported by [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) (Result: Declined) ==

*[[Wikipedia:Edit warring|Edit warring]], [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|Disruptive editing]] and [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attacks]] on
{{Article|Bruce Lee}}. {{3RRV|Undefeatedcooler}}: Time reported: 15:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

''Diffs are listed from oldest to newest, dates are in UTC''

# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346287578 13:18, 25 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346084776 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) talk page")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346316580 16:32, 25 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346296011 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) talk page")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346491264 13:59, 26 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346486331 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) stop it, talk page first !!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346588694 23:41, 26 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346513127 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) for goodness sake !!!!! TALK PAGE !!!!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346674725 12:44, 27 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346600959 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) this is it, talk page !!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346824444 05:12, 28 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346776015 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) you must stop from now on, see talk !!!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=347701703 13:26, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347601997 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) TALK PAGE ONLY !!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=347709661 14:28, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347707175 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) please try to controvert the explanations first before you edit this article.(Talk)")

Undefeatedcooler, who is a pure [[single purpose account]] (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Undefeatedcooler user contributions]), has been stubbornly reverting the article for the past two week showing a pseudo-willingness for talk in his edit summaries. However, once there (see [[Talk:Bruce Lee#Lead and categories|the discussion]]) he limited himself to asserting the same views over and over again but consistently failed to provide the repeatedly requested evidence according to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden of evidence]]. He has already been warned of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Undefeatedcooler edit warring]. I tried to bring in fresh views at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Categorization of Bruce Lee as "Chinese"]], but there he simply continued his racist tirade from the talk page:

'''Village pump (miscellaneous)''':
*"His/Her comments approached Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Etiquette. I insisted that he/she was a racist (anti-Chinese) editor." Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:21, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

'''Talk:Bruce Lee''':
*"“Bruce Lee was not Chinese”, that’s ridiculous. He was surely a Chinese person, I know there were a lot of anti-Chinese in America, but please put your bias and racism away." Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
*"Those were the key points for the lazy and stubborn people to read clearly. You are the one being immature, bullheaded and racist (anti-Chinese) with your insults and ignorant attitudes to this discussion page." Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

—[[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 15:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

{{Template:declined}} - I see 2 reverts in a 24 hour period. The editor may be [[WP:TE|tendentious]], but they've never even reached 3RR, and recently they left the page for almost 4 days before reverting again. I think there is a problem, but this noticeboard isn't for incivility reports. You might want to try [[WP:WQA]] instead. -- '''[[User:Atama|Atama]]'''[[User talk:Atama|頭]] 20:56, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:You see only two reverts only because I refrained from reverting which I feel now less inclined, too. [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 22:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::I did leave the editor a warning about not making personal attacks against other editors. If he continues, try WQA as suggested or perhaps even [[WP:ANI]] may be better venues. This noticeboard is for violations of [[WP:3RR]]. -- '''[[User:Atama|Atama]]'''[[User talk:Atama|頭]] 01:44, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Undefeatedcooler]] reported by [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) (Result: 24h) ==

*[[Wikipedia:Three-revert rule|Three-revert rule]] violation on
{{Article|Bruce Lee}}. {{3RRV|Undefeatedcooler}}: Time reported: 13:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

''Diffs are listed from oldest to newest, dates are in UTC''
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346287578 13:18, 25 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346084776 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) talk page")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346316580 16:32, 25 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346296011 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) talk page")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346491264 13:59, 26 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346486331 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) stop it, talk page first !!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346588694 23:41, 26 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346513127 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) for goodness sake !!!!! TALK PAGE !!!!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346674725 12:44, 27 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346600959 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) this is it, talk page !!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=346824444 05:12, 28 February 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 346776015 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) you must stop from now on, see talk !!!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=347701703 13:26, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347601997 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) TALK PAGE ONLY !!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=347709661 14:28, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347707175 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) please try to controvert the explanations first before you edit this article.(Talk)")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=347897308 12:59, 5 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347893541 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) stop reverting. Talk Page !!!")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruce%20Lee&diff=prev&oldid=347899401 13:18, 5 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347898427 by [[Special:Contributions/Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) Talk Page. Remember, you are the one who made changes from a "long-term version"")

See declined notice above for the development so far. I then reported Undefeatedcooler allegations of racism to
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABruce_Lee&action=historysubmit&diff=347877728&oldid=347713162 Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents] and he received
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=347798240 a warning by SGGH] who explicitly pointed him to the need for providing evidence to his carved-in-stone views. Still, he continues to revert. I regard my reverts justified on the basis of [[WP:Verify]] what I also [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABruce_Lee&action=historysubmit&diff=347893920&oldid=347877728 communicated to him].

—[[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 13:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

{{an3|ab}} by [[User:SGGH]]. -[[User:Atmoz|Atmoz]] ([[User talk:Atmoz|talk]]) 23:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:ChristiaandeWet]] reported by [[User:Magicpiano]] (Result: 24h) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|French and Indian War}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|ChristiaandeWet}}



Previous version reverted to: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_and_Indian_War&oldid=347630730]


* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_and_Indian_War&diff=347710627&oldid=347630730]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_and_Indian_War&diff=347725391&oldid=347723098]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_and_Indian_War&diff=347727227&oldid=347726369]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_and_Indian_War&diff=347728932&oldid=347728646]




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: Editor has been previously warned about edit warring and is aware of 3RR: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ChristiaandeWet&diff=345696556&oldid=345657472]


User has never responded on talk pages, see his history: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ChristiaandeWet]

Comments: 

User has a history of contentious editing on a wide variety of articles; many of his contributions have been reverted. I have attempted to engage him in the past (e.g. [[Talk:Battle of Havana (1762)|here]]), and on his talk page. ''[[User:Magicpiano|Magic]]''[[User_talk:Magicpiano|♪piano]] 16:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

{{Template:done}} - Blocked for 24 hours. This is a pretty straight-forward 4RR situation. -- '''[[User:Atama|Atama]]'''[[User talk:Atama|頭]] 20:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[Special:Contributions/65.1.3.105|User:65.1.3.105]] reported by [[User:Uncle Dick|Uncle Dick]] ([[User talk:Uncle Dick|talk]]) (Result: 24 hours) ==

*[[Wikipedia:Three-revert rule|Three-revert rule]] violation on
{{Article|German Empire}}. {{3RRV|65.1.3.105}}: Time reported: 18:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

''Diffs are listed from oldest to newest, dates are in UTC''

# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German%20Empire&diff=prev&oldid=347416558 01:10, 3 March 2010] (edit summary: "")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German%20Empire&diff=prev&oldid=347742376 17:45, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Undid revision 347429863 by [[Special:Contributions/Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]])")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German%20Empire&diff=prev&oldid=347746065 18:08, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German%20Empire&diff=prev&oldid=347747069 18:14, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Check the facts before reverting my edit, DICK. I am correct. You can find postaqe stamps online with Friedrich Ebert on them that say "Deutsches Reich."")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German%20Empire&diff=prev&oldid=347749980 18:30, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "The translation of Reich as "empire" is patently wrong since the "deutsches Reich" continued to appear on German postage stamps in the Weimar period, as a quick search will show.")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German_Empire&diff=prev&oldid=347751736 18:40, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Dick have you heard of Google? Plug in "Deutsches Reich" and "Friedrich Ebert" on an image search and you will see the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that Reich does not mean "empire."")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German_Empire&action=historysubmit&diff=347753687&oldid=347752903 10:51, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Antiuser I suggest you read the discussion page where I have explained why the translation of Reich as Empire cannot be accurate, plus the fact that "Deutsches Reich" continued to be used in the 1920s")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German_Empire&action=historysubmit&diff=347756077&oldid=347755275 11:05, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "You guys are all action and no thought. Read how I justified my edit, and look at the discussion page again.")

* Diff of warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A65.1.3.105&action=historysubmit&diff=347751130&oldid=347750757 here]

—[[User:Uncle Dick|Uncle Dick]] ([[User talk:Uncle Dick|talk]]) 18:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
*{{AN3|b|24 hours}} --[[User:Slakr|slakr]]\ [[User talk:Slakr|talk]] / 19:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Rschuehle]] reported by [[User:Uncle Dick|Uncle Dick]] ([[User talk:Uncle Dick|talk]]) (Result:Stale; Article at AFD) ==

*[[Wikipedia:Three-revert rule|Three-revert rule]] violation on
{{Article|Chimestone}}. {{3RRV|Rschuehle}}: Time reported: 21:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

''Diffs are listed from oldest to newest, dates are in UTC''

# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chimestone&diff=prev&oldid=347774706 20:50, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chimestone&diff=prev&oldid=347780475 21:22, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Chagnes")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chimestone&diff=prev&oldid=347780952 21:24, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Changes")
# [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chimestone&diff=prev&oldid=347781646 21:28, 4 March 2010] (edit summary: "Changes")

* Diff of warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARschuehle&action=historysubmit&diff=347781651&oldid=347777286 here]

—[[User:Uncle Dick|Uncle Dick]] ([[User talk:Uncle Dick|talk]]) 21:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

{{AN3|stale}} The article is presently at AFD and the reverts have stopped. Both the listed editor and the submitter seem to have edit warred. I will watch the page. [[User:JodyB|'''JodyB''']][[User talk:JodyB| talk]] 01:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:213.240.232.170]] reported by [[User:94.110.95.62]] (Result: No vio) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Gümüş tv series}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|213.240.232.170}}

Previous version reverted to: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=G%C3%BCm%C3%BC%C5%9F&diff=328453828&oldid=326527683]

* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=G%C3%BCm%C3%BC%C5%9F&diff=prev&oldid=347504364]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=G%C3%BCm%C3%BC%C5%9F&diff=prev&oldid=346061109]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=G%C3%BCm%C3%BC%C5%9F&diff=prev&oldid=345762092]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yabanc%C4%B1_Damat&diff=prev&oldid=343395117]

Comments: 
:{{AN3|novio}} No 3RR breach, and both editors responsible for slow-moving edit-warring. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]]''' | [[User_talk:Juliancolton|''Talk'']] 01:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Mbz1]] reported by [[User:Vexorg]] (Result: ) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Rothschild family}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Mbz1}}



Previous version reverted to: [diff preferred, link permitted]


* 1st revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&oldid=347855028
* 2nd revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&oldid=347855230
* 3rd revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&oldid=347855338
* 4th revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&oldid=347855432
* 5th revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&oldid=347855679
* 6th revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&oldid=347855778

I came across a bunch of POV edits by this user in this article which had no rationale for the edits. I restored them. Almost immediately this user made quick reverts without any discussion. I asked the editor to stop edit warring but he/she was not responsie to that and came straight back and reverted my corrections and made some erronreoud refence to [[wp:blp]]


I have started a discussion/complaint abotu this editor on the talk page, but I fear it's pointless as this user is editing under a political bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rothschild_family#Complaint_about_User:Mbz1_and_his_POV_edits


[[User:Vexorg|Vexorg]] ([[User talk:Vexorg|talk]]) 06:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:Moved [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Topic_ban_proposal_for_user:Vexorg here]--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 06:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:: nothing has moved. Your vendetta against me is seperate from this report. [[User:Vexorg|Vexorg]] ([[User talk:Vexorg|talk]]) 06:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

::: just to add: I gave the user [[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] notice I had reported him for edit warring and he didn't take it seriously and deleted it by writing it off as a rant http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mbz1&oldid=347858549 [[User:Vexorg|Vexorg]] ([[User talk:Vexorg|talk]]) 06:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: I tried restoring the notification of this report of edit warring to the editor [[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] but he has simply deleted it again and is claiming it as vandalism http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mbz1&oldid=347859797 - It's clear this editor is not taking the due processes seriously. [[User:Vexorg|Vexorg]] ([[User talk:Vexorg|talk]]) 06:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
'''Comments by NickCT'''

I've had issues with ths editor edit warring before. I [[User_talk:PhilKnight#Striking_comments_from_banned_editors.3F|consulted]] an uninvolved admin over an edit war on some talk page recently. The admin offered his advice, which I followed, then, low and behold, Mbz continues to edit war!!

Mbz, I've enjoyed some of our conversations, and you're admitidly a darn fine photographer, but you must cease acting so unilaterally when editting. Try to find the value in other peoples POVs even when they don't match yours. If you fail to do so, you will simply end up fighting, rather than cooperating to make your edits. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 14:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:According to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:3RR#The_three-revert_rule to that] 3rr does not apply to me. I was reverting the violation of [[wp:blp]]. Om the other hand the rule does apply to [[User:Vexorg]], who not only reverted me more than 3 times, but has done in the violation of [[wp:blp]].--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 14:53, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

'''External observations:''' (1) both editors seem to be clearly in violation of 3RR based on a simple observation at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&action=history article history]. (2) A paragraph in question on at least one of the diffs is quite poorly written. (3) I've seen no citation for one of the fact tags added by Mbz1 (regarding Knesset donation[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&action=historysubmit&diff=347855778&oldid=347855679]), and it is relevant to a biography - though, not of a ''living'' person. [[User:Jaakobou|Jaakobou]]''[[User talk:Jaakobou|Chalk Talk]]'' 16:21, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the edit you're pointing out to. I am talking about that [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&action=historysubmit&diff=347855230&oldid=347855028]. Changing the section name to "Zionism" and changing ""Many Rothschilds were supporters of the [[Israel|State of Israel]]" to "Many Rothschilds were '''and are''' supporters of the [[Israel|State of Israel]]" is the violation of [[WP:BLP]].--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 16:30, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::It's still not clear why you see this as a BLP violation, at least not to me. Are you saying that the category is inappropriate and if so how ? Does the '''and are''' fail [[WP:V]] compliance ? Is it inaccurate in some way ? Is the category/title being applied too broadly to the entire family given that many weren't supporters of Zionism ? Is it offensive in some way from your perspective ? What's wrong with someone supporting Zionism and wiki categorising them as a Zionist or using the term as a section heading ? Many people are proud to call themselves as Zionists so it's not at all clear to me why you would edit war over this and regard it as a BLP violation. '''[[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]]''' - '''[[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]''' 16:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
::::It does mot matter, if somebody is proud or ashamed to be called a Zionist. If you'd bother to read the section, you will see "Many Rothschilds were supporters of the [[Israel|State of Israel]], '''although other members of the family opposed the creation of the state.'''". This one sentence is enough to see how adding the article to Zionism category and changing the section's name is a violation of [[WP:BLP]]. BTW the word "many" should be changed to "some"--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 17:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::I should aslo mention that the user made edit warring over the same thing with few other editors in the past [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=331117810];[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=328283056];[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=324963330];[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=329976232];[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=344553910].--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 17:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::I did read the section. I read the entire article. I also read the [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-rothschild-story-a-golden-era-ends-for-a-secretive-dynasty-756388.html source cited in the article] which says "''And the family split over the question of the dream of a Jewish homeland, with some members supporting the first Zionist settlement in Palestine and the Balfour declaration and others opposing it on the grounds that it would encourage anti-Semites to question the existing national identities of assimilated Jews around the rest of the world.''" So, based on the source and the section in the article where is the BLP violation ? It seems to me that what you are actually saying is that the category/title is being applied too broadly to the entire family given that <s>many</s> they were split over their support for Zionism. If so, that isn't a BLP violation, it's a categorization error/dispute (that I happen to agree is probably too broad). You can't justify disruptively edit warring over things like that on the grounds of BLP. '''[[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]]''' - '''[[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]''' 17:49, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::::I sure can. Here's a real life story: Once [[Conjoined twins]] were involved in a car accident, which has resulted in an injury or even a death of another person. The twin, who was driving, was guilty in the accident, but the judge refused to put him to jail, in order not to put there his innocent brother. For some people, who are not Zionist to be called a Zionist is a big offense, and very defamatory. To name the section that is talking about living persons, who are not Zionists "Zionism" is [[wp:POV]], and is a violation of [[WP:BLP]]--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 18:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

::'''Comments by Vexorg 1 ''' -- There was no violation of [[WP:BLP]] by having the section entitled Zionism or the category Zionism. Even though some of the Rothshilds may have opposed the creation of Israel the family has broadly been Zionist supporters. They were the agents between the Zionist Federation and the British government ( Arthur Balfour in particular it seems ) in 1917 and 1919 ) and members of the family paid fore the Knesset and Israeli supreme court buildings, etc,etc - Suport of Zionism is notable within the Rothshild family and therefore completely appropriate to entitled the section Zionism,and add the Zionism category, even if not all members of the family supported the creation of Israel. [[WP:BLP]] should be applied however on a case by case on articles of individual members of this family. [[User:Vexorg|Vexorg]] ([[User talk:Vexorg|talk]]) 17:57, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

::'''Comments by Vexorg 2 ''' - There seems to be some personal agenda against me by the user [[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] - I may have unwittingly upset upset him/her at [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_Prize_Winners Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners]] ‎- FURTH adn very concerning is this user's almost obsessive arguments here which have appeared sine last night -- [[http://en.wikipedia.org

:::What an absurd suggestions. Quite a few people voted to delete it, so why is my "personal agenda" applies only to Vexorg?--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 18:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

'''External observation (extended):''' (1) I'm not aware of the history of discussions over this but if Vexorg is promoting contested changes in this manner over an extended period, then it adds to the gravity of his current violation. (2) Also, I agree that "and are" counts as a real BLP concern. (3) Words like 'many' and 'some' are among [[WP:WTA]]. [[User:Jaakobou|Jaakobou]]''[[User talk:Jaakobou|Chalk Talk]]'' 18:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:I don't see any problem with the section title being Zionism or Support of Israel or various other perfectly sensible titles. I don't think it's a problem having the Zionism category but I can see that someone could legitimately object on the grounds that it places the entire family into a set when members of that family are not actually members of that set. On the other hand categories are primarily about helping people find information so in that sense having the category helps. The bottomline is that it's not BLP related, it's just a simple content dispute or it should be and there will be differences in opinion. There's no reason to edit war over it. There is no excuse for not sorting it out on the talk page. '''[[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]]''' - '''[[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]''' 18:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
::"The bottomline is that it's not BLP related, it's just a simple content dispute" - I second this.
::"There is no excuse for not sorting it out on the talk page" - Strongly second this. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 18:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Of course you are, aren't you? '''Have you seen those [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=331117810];[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=328283056];[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=324963330];[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=329976232];[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rothschild_family&diff=prev&oldid=344553910] by any chance?'''--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 18:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Yes, I've seen them. The 'are' statements don't comply with [[WP:V]]. Neither did the statements before the edits were made. It's a content dispute. It's about complying with policy and finding consensus. Those edits are significantly less troublesome than your comment [[User_talk:Gilabrand#Blocked|"Well, at least you got blocked fighting for the right cause!"]]. If I were an admin I would have blocked you on sight for that remark. You need to calm down, stop throwing serious accusations around like they are candy, talk to Vexorg and try to work it out with him and other editors. No one needs to edit war over things like this. '''[[User:Sean.hoyland|Sean.hoyland]]''' - '''[[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]''' 18:51, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Honestly, just between the two of us, if I am to get blocked for [[User_talk:Gilabrand#Blocked|"Well, at least you got blocked fighting for the right cause!"]] I will be <big>'''PROUD'''</big>, but I doubt I could get blocked for that. On what grounds? What will be the block reason? What policy did I violate. Your comment about me getting blocked over my statement clearly shows your own agenda here, as well as it shows you are not enough familiar with wikipedia policies to discuss some.--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 19:21, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::Mbz1 - I think Sean was trying to offer friendly advise mate. Constantly accusing people of having "agendas" is probably not constructive. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 19:35, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::"If I were an admin I would have blocked you on sight for that remark" is a friendly advise in your opinion? Oh well, I've nothing else to add.--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 19:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::If I were a lion I would eat you. Do you find that threatening? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 20:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::It is not about lions, it is more about vultures, not to say rats. Are you really do not understand, or only pretending that you do not? This is a board that administrators are monitoring. If somebody makes such a claim as sean did, an admin could follow up on it, but I am not going to respond you anymore. I could only repeat stop [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikihounding#Wikihounding Wikihounding], and stop it now!--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 20:32, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Ok Mbz1. You're right. We're trying to intimidate you because we have a secret agenda. You are a perfect person, incapable of fault, incapable of POV because your POV is truly NPOV, and all criticisms lodged against you must simply be people with agendas plotting against you. I'm glad you've figured this out. I'll bother you no longer. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 21:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
***Both of you nick and sean stop [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikihounding#Wikihounding Wikihounding], and stop it now!--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 20:00, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Lol. Mbz1, I was only watching this page because you had posted a complaint about me here earlier. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 20:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

'''Note for people to see related topic with some info on the motivations of [[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]]'s edit warring and personal vendetta''' [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Topic_ban_proposal_for_user:Vexorg Topic ban proposal for user:Vexorg]] - As you can see [[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] is getting increasingly more obsessive with his/her ever increasing list of non-arguments and innocuous past events in order to demonise me. The lengths he/she is going to speaks volumes and it's getting very tedious having to defend myself such a tirade. [[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]brings up the term [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikihounding#Wikihounding Wikihounding] and this is exactly what [[User talk:Mbz1|talk]] is doing against me [[User:Vexorg|Vexorg]] ([[User talk:Vexorg|talk]]) 21:50, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

*The way the report is formatted is hard to see exactly what is going on but if one editor is warring then both editors are warring, one editor is adding that the rochchild family are Zionists and the other is changing the wording, I am shock to find out that the rothchilds are Zionists and I have got this far through my life and I have never heard the rothchilds called that. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 22:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:: I didn't add the Rothschilds are Zionists. The section was called Zionism for a long long time. I simply restored the section title and category. A section title or category does not imply that all Rothschilds are Zionists. it means as a family they have notably been involved with Zionism. I respectfully suggest you do some research if you have never heard of any Zionist Connection to the Rothschild. The Arthur Balfour declaration is a good place to start... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917 [[User:Vexorg|Vexorg]] ([[User talk:Vexorg|talk]]) 22:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User: Routerone]] reported by [[User: Duke53]] (Result: prot) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Joseph Smith, Jr.}} 
'''User being reported:Routerone''' {{userlinks|User: Routerone}}



Previous version reverted to: [diff preferred, link permitted]


* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Smith,_Jr.&oldid=347924754]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Smith,_Jr.&direction=next&oldid=347930132]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Smith,_Jr.&direction=next&oldid=347949190]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Smith,_Jr.&direction=next&oldid=347950093]




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARouterone&action=historysubmit&diff=347949435&oldid=347230911]


Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [diff]

Comments: 

[[User:Duke53|Duke53]] | [[User talk:Duke53|Talk]] 19:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:(uninvolved) So where are your talkpage contribs? (just wondering...) [[User:Seb az86556|Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556]] [[User_talk:Seb_az86556|> haneʼ]] 19:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

::Without removing it again, I would like to state that this is a bad faith report. I was making legitimate edits, I could see the problem with the context I was changing, so what does he do? revert me and try to pass off my edits as vandalism. I have support from another administrator that was nothing wrong with my edits. Duke53 is being disruptive, what hes done here has made a load of inapropriate bad faith reverts against me, and had he not done that '''then there would be no edit war''' on that artivcle.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Routerone&diff=347953036&oldid=347951666] [[User:Routerone|Routerone]] ([[User talk:Routerone|talk]]) 19:39, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Your (routerone) edits were not vandalism. It was still edit warring. Duke53 should have left a 3RR warning about it on your userpage. In any case, it's this 3RR is moot, as Routerone began discussing things on the talk page and the article is also full-protected for a short time. In other words, there are large heaps of bad faith on both sides of this. [[WP:STICK]] applies. [[User:Tedder|tedder]] ([[User talk:Tedder|talk]]) 19:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::*::: Duke53 DID leave a 3RR warning on his talk page ... he deleted it. Cheers. [[User:Duke53|Duke53]] | [[User talk:Duke53|Talk]] 20:10, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

::::You've admitted my edits were not vandalism, he was reverting them on the accusation that they were. Meaning, had he not bothered there would have been no conflict. I reverted him back because I saw what was doing as tedious and extremely injustified, though I will admit that was a mistake and I should have took it to an admin. [[User:Routerone|Routerone]] ([[User talk:Routerone|talk]]) 19:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

::::: Very clever of Routerone to include a diff of a talk page AFTER he had deleted my comments. Cheers. [[User:Duke53|Duke53]] | [[User talk:Duke53|Talk]] 20:10, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::Yes I did delete it, why? Because I don't believe that I should pay attention to any editor who reverts my edits for no constructive, plasubility suitble, or legitimate reason only to fulfil his dislikes against my religion (see the picture on his userpage). Anyone can slap a warning on a talkpage, but if its not for a legitimate reason, then its useless. '''You appeared from nowhere''' and reverted my legitimate edit for no good reason, passing them off as '''"vandalism"''', without even previously contributing to the article. So how can you possibly report me for edit warring? As your no-good deeds which were the cause of the problems. For if you hadn't have tried to pass my edits off as "vandalism" in a bad faith manner, I wouldn't have reverted again would I? for attempting to decieve like you did there is very inapropriate, and that is what you done to try and win the "war" (which you caused anyway), decieve. ''''You did not contribute to the discussion''', or like I said '''even edit the page previously'''. You simply appeared to stir up trouble, by reverting on prejudice for no good reason. So don't try and play this game with me. [[User:Routerone|Routerone]] ([[User talk:Routerone|talk]]) 20:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

{{an3|protected}} by Tedder. -[[User:Atmoz|Atmoz]] ([[User talk:Atmoz|talk]]) 23:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:74.190.55.226]] reported by [[User:Jpgordon]] (Result: ) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Andrew Sullivan}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|74.190.55.226}}



Previous version reverted to: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrew_Sullivan&diff=347711890&oldid=347711611]



# 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrew%20Sullivan&diff=prev&oldid=347712152 14:46, 4 March 2010]
# 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrew%20Sullivan&diff=prev&oldid=347712667 14:49, 4 March 2010]
# 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrew%20Sullivan&diff=prev&oldid=347865982 07:31, 5 March 2010]
# 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrew%20Sullivan&diff=prev&oldid=347943862 18:09, 5 March 2010]




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Andrew_Sullivan&diff=347957811&oldid=347957396] (Not a formal warning, but this was after some dozen or so reverts)

Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Andrew_Sullivan&diff=347957811&oldid=347957396]

Comments: 

I'd do this myself except I'm involved. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|::==( o )]] 22:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

== [[User:Rida1990]] reported by [[User:Malik Shabazz]] (Result: ) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Saudi Arabia and the Apartheid Analogy}} 
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|Rida1990}}

Previous version reverted to: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saudi_Arabia_and_the_Apartheid_Analogy&diff=347963318&oldid=347963054]

* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saudi_Arabia_and_the_Apartheid_Analogy&diff=347966270&oldid=347966106]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saudi_Arabia_and_the_Apartheid_Analogy&diff=347985942&oldid=347978513]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saudi_Arabia_and_the_Apartheid_Analogy&diff=347987725&oldid=347986561]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saudi_Arabia_and_the_Apartheid_Analogy&diff=347992336&oldid=347990252]

Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rida1990&diff=347986609&oldid=347985705]

Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [[Talk:Saudi Arabia and the Apartheid Analogy#Merge?]]

Comments: 



== [[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]] ==

== [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph|Bischof Ralph sockpuppets]] reported by [[User:Papphase]] (Result: ) ==

'''Page:''' {{article|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}} 
'''User being reported:''' [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph|a number of Bischof Ralph sockpuppets]]



Previous version reverted to: Actually is hard to find any reasonable version. There are a large number of [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph|Bischof Ralph sockpuppets]] continuously pushing nonsense into the article. I suggest my own latest version, but basically the article is a mess and not going anywhere.


[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&action=history Article History]




Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: [link]


Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [[Talk:Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige]]

Comments: 
I suggest to close the article to admin editing only so that any changes have to be discussed and proven on the Talk page first. I don't see any chance to keep Bishof-Ralph sockpuppets from creating more of a mess. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 14:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

User:Papphase

2010-03-06T14:29:15Z

Papphase: ←Created page with 'Please contact my on my page on de:WP.'

Please contact my on [[:de:Benutzer:Papphase|my page on de:WP]].

User talk:Theophil~enwiki

2010-03-06T14:26:25Z

Papphase:

== Welcome ==
'''Welcome!'''

Hello, {{BASEPAGENAME}}, and [[Wikipedia:Introduction|welcome]] to Wikipedia! Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/{{BASEPAGENAME}}|your contributions]]{{#if:|, especially what you did for [[:{{{art}}}]]}}. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Please [[Wikipedia:Signatures|sign]] your messages on [[Wikipedia:talk page|discussion page]]s using four [[tilde]]s (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out [[Wikipedia:Questions]], ask me on {{#if:Cirt|[[user talk:Cirt|my talk page]]|my talk page}}, or ask your question on this page and then place <code><nowiki>{{helpme}}</nowiki></code> before the question. Again, welcome! 
'''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

== sp ==
[[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph#User:Bischof-Ralph]] -- [[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 14:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Theophil~enwiki

2010-03-06T14:26:09Z

Papphase:

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bischof-Ralph

2010-03-06T14:24:13Z

Papphase: /* User:Bischof-Ralph */ new section

<noinclude>__TOC__</noinclude>
{{SPIarchive notice|Bischof-Ralph}} {{SPIpriorcases}}

== [[User:Bischof-Ralph]] ==

===== <big>Report date March 6 2010, 14:24 (UTC)</big>=====

{{SPIcat}}



====== Suspected sockpuppets ======
* {{checkuser|1=Theophil}}
* {{checkuser|1=Michelle cannon}}

====== Evidence submitted by [[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ======
[[User:Theophil]] was created very shortly after several [[User:Bischof-Ralph]] sockpuppets were banned (see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Bischof-Ralph/Archive|Archive]]). His only actions were to put a number of Christianity tags on his User page and then revert my clean-up of the [[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]] article which was/is Bishof Ralph's major playground. He uses the same accusations of lies and vandalism against anyone who removes orignial research, IKMO-sources and off-topics (such as Ralph Napierski "inventions" in the Fleige article) than previous sockpuppets.

[[User:Michelle cannon]] has hardly any edits outside the Fleige article. Popped up around the same time with all other socks and has the same liking for large numbers of flashing User page tags. Accusations of vandalism against me like all other Ralph-puppets.

As for myself: I don't edit very often here, but I'm a regular contributor on [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Papphase de:WP] with several thousand edits and over 70 new articles. I guess a good number of people can vouch for me not being a vandal.

====== Comments by accused parties ======
''See [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Guidance#Defending yourself against claims|Defending yourself against claims]].''

====== Comments by other users ======

====== Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments ======

----

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism

2010-03-05T19:58:54Z

Papphase: /* Clean-up and watchdog */ sry

{{todo}}
{{Project Catholicism}}
{{WP Catholic Navigation}}
{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|DarkGoldenRod}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fcf7d3}}};"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Crystal Clear app file-manager.png|50px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" |Archives of past discussions''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid DarkGoldenRod;" |

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 1|Archive 1]]''': December 2005 – June 2006

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 2|Archive 2]]''': July 2006 – August 2006

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 3|Archive 3]]''': September 2006 – January 2008

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 4|Archive 4]]''': February 2008 –
December 2008

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 5|Archive 5]]''': January 2009 –
December 2009

|}

==New members==
A number of new members have joined recently, so I'd like to encourage them to participate more fully in the Project. This page is the best one for any questions, suggestions, proposals and problems to do with all Catholic-related articles. If you are editing such an article, check whether it has the "Project Catholicism" tag on the talk page, which identifies the article as part of this project. If not, please insert it at the head of the talk page using the code: {{tl|Project Catholicism}}
Other useful tasks include suggesting new articles and improvements, rating articles on our quality stage, checking that articles are correct, and helping to find reliable references for articles. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 02:47, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

==Thomas More Article Request for Comment==
There is a request for comment on the [[Thomas More]] article talk page, where an editor has inserted a piece, based on "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" suggesting that More revelled in torturing protestants. Can people with an interest in or knowledge of this topic, comment on this on the [[talk:Thomas More]] page. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 23:31, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
==Copyright concerns related to your project==
This notice is to advise interested editors that a [[Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations|Contributor copyright investigation]] has been opened which may impact this project. Such investigations are launched when contributors have been found to have placed copyrighted content on Wikipedia on multiple occasions. It may result in the deletion of images or text and possibly articles in accordance with [[Wikipedia:Copyright violations]]. The specific investigation which may impact this project is located [[Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20100114|here]].

All contributors with no history of copyright problems are welcome to contribute to CCI clean up. There are instructions for participating on that page. Additional information may be requested from the user who placed this notice, at [[Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations|the process board talkpage]], or from [[Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Instructions#Active_clerks|an active CCI clerk]]. Thank you.  --[[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] [[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]] 21:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

==Dispute over article [[Anticlericalism and Freemasonry]]==
There is well sourced material now in the new article [[Anticlericalism and Freemasonry]] which was deleted wholesale from the old article [[Catholicism and Freemasonry]] with very little discussion. What remained, after the deleted material, was moved into either [[Christianity and Freemasonry]] or [[Papal ban of Freemasonry]]. An editor is claiming that the new article [[Anticlericalism and Freemasonry‎]] is just POV or and attack article and tried to blank the article altogether and redirect to an article without all the blanked material. The editor maintains that the article should be deleted. One editor suggested that the editor who dislikes the article nominate it for deletion, which hasn't been done...yet. While the article might have some problems, I don't think it should be blanked or deleted. Those with an interest in the matter might want to join the discussion or improve the article. [[User:Mamalujo|Mamalujo]] ([[User talk:Mamalujo|talk]]) 21:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
:I'll have a look at the page. Basically I think the subject rates coverage in a separate article. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 03:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

== Charles I ==

Hi,

Does anyone know if [[Charles I of England|Charles I]] is venerated as a saint by the Catholic Church? --[[User:AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42|AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42]] ([[User talk:AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42|talk]]) 19:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:As far as I know, no. Charles I was never a catholic, though I think some high [[Anglican]]s (known as Anglo-Catholics), have made moves in that direction. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 01:05, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
::He is in fact the only official Anglican saint (other people are "heroes"), but not a Catholic one. Didn't you read the article? [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 23:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

==Article [[Christian pilgrimage]]==
This article is little more than a list at the moment. It seems an important subject that could do with some improvement such as adding a history of pilgrimage and of the concept itself. Volunteers?? [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 01:05, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

== WP 1.0 bot announcement ==

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment|WP 1.0 assessment system]]. On '''Saturday, January 23, 2010''', the [[User:WP 1.0 bot|WP 1.0 bot]] will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Catholicism articles by quality statistics|summary table]] will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the [[Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index|WP 1.0 project homepage]]. — Carl ([[User:CBM|CBM]] · [[User talk:CBM|talk]]) 03:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

== GA reassessment of [[Aquinas College, Perth]] ==

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the [[WP:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force/Sweeps|GA Sweeps process]]. I have found some concerns with the article which you can see at [[Talk:Aquinas College, Perth/GA1]]. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. [[User:Jezhotwells|Jezhotwells]] ([[User talk:Jezhotwells|talk]]) 19:29, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

== Naming convention for churches? ==

Is there some sort of naming convention for churches with a specific patron saint? I don't know whether to name an article "St. Anthony Catholic Church" or "St. Anthony's Catholic Church", especially since some of my sources use one format and some use the other. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 16:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

:I can't give a reference. I noticed that the church in Rome is called "St. Peter's.." in Wikipedia. Unfortunately it is almost always said '''both''' ways in conversation. <s>But the possessive appears most correct.</s>

:There are flukes. One church is officially called "The Conversion of St. Paul." So, naturally, everyone calls it "St. Paul's" (or St. Paul). [[User:Student7|Student7]] ([[User talk:Student7|talk]]) 23:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

:Usually, the official name is without an apostrophe (although sometimes it does contain an apostrophe). Regardless of the official name, people -- in conversation -- usually add an " 's"; it seems to flow easier when speaking, especially when using just the nickname (e.g., St. Paul's) instead of the formal name (e.g., St. Paul Catholic Church). For example, one might say in conversation: "I am a parishioner of St. Paul Catholic Church" or "I am a parishioner at St. Paul's." Most people would not say "I am a parishioner at St. Paul." It doesn't sound right, especially since St. Paul is also a person (albeit deceased). The reason most official names don't include the apostrophe is that it is not a possessive use. The church does not "belong" to St. Paul. For example, in Naples, Fla., there is a church called "St. Peter the Apostle Catholic Church". Its name is not "St. Peter the Apostle's Catholic Church". Also, it's not "Our Lady of Perpetual Help's Catholic Church. The inclusion or non-inclusion of the apostrophe is an example of the confusion that arises when the colloquial usage differs from the formal, offical usage. [[User:Eagle4000|Eagle4000]] ([[User talk:Eagle4000|talk]]) 16:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
::Are you sure? If so, that must be an American thing, and historically the churches were indeed the possessions of the saints - legally they belonged to them, & were administered on their behalf, usefully anticipating developments in corporate/trust law. I would always expect an apostrophe in UK English and translated European names, & I think the vast majority have them, though the formal names usually are in the form "Church of St Paul, Location". Ones that don't fit a possessive comfortably just use the name, as in "Our Lady of Perpetual Help". [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 23:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Yes. The possessive is key. You can say "The Church of Saint Paul", but this is normally abbreviated to "Saint Paul's", not "Saint Paul". Even "Our Lady of Perpetual Help" will usually be from "The Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Help." To do otherwise would be to name the Church as if it were the person it is dedicated to. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 01:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

== Need some help expanding Roman Catholic Country Articles ==

I am trying to help expand 3 articles for Roman Catholicism in these 3 [[list of states with limited recognition|partially recognised countries]]. I thought who better to help than this project! Hope someone can lend a hand. But do remember that these are contested areas and information can be difficult to find, so its been a bit of a challenge. Do come to the rescue of these articles!

*<s>[[Roman Catholicism in Transnistria]]</s> this page has been eliminated due to lack of action(Feb 8).
*[[Roman Catholicism in Kosovo]]
*<s>[[Roman Catholicism in Somaliland]]</s> no action from this project taken, page was merged with [[Somaliland]] main page, religion section(Feb 28).

Many thanks in advance, [[User:Outback the koala|Outback the koala]] ([[User talk:Outback the koala|talk]]) 05:34, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

==[[Heralds of the Gospel]]==

Can someone find a way to stop vandalism on this article?
--[[Special:Contributions/94.37.172.194|94.37.172.194]] ([[User talk:94.37.172.194|talk]]) 21:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:The hunter1986|The hunter1986]] ([[User talk:The hunter1986|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/The hunter1986|contribs]])  

==A US diocesan template up for deletion==
A US diocesan template is up for deletion at [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2010_February_3#Template:Catholic_dioceses_of_the_United_States]]. [[User:Student7|Student7]] ([[User talk:Student7|talk]]) 13:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
:That template is better set out than the [[Template:R-C_provinces_in_the_United_States|other one]], and also links the individual dioceses. However it would seem to be incomplete, with only about a quarter of the Archdioceses in the US listed. Perhaps that is why it hasn't been used. Can it be completed? [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 01:53, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
::I just revised the Wikilink for the title of the [[Template:R-C_provinces_in_the_United_States|other template]], so it now displays as: [[List of the Catholic dioceses of the United States#Ecclesiastical province of Anchorage|Roman Catholic Ecclesiastical Provinces in the United States]]. The new link takes you to an already existing list of dioceses -- by province. This might eliminate the need for the diocesan template that is up for deletion. [[User:Eagle4000|Eagle4000]] ([[User talk:Eagle4000|talk]]) 17:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

== Ida Raming, Gisela Forster and Patricia Fresen ==

I translated today article of german writers, catholic theologian and teachers [[Ida Raming]] and [[Gisela Forster]] as South African writer, teacher and catholic theologian [[Patricia Fresen]]. [[User:GLGermann|GLGermann]] ([[User talk:GLGermann|talk]]) 21:17, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

== Hi! I need some help?! ==
I made links to saints like the life of st. Anthony and catholic feast days etc. from different sources and now I have been accused of linkspamming when I carefully linked every single wiki article to the specific page that was about the wiki topic. Anyone can see this clearly if he watches this manually for himself. I dont know what to do. I have followed the wiki rules perfectly?! Even admin seems to not even watched the pages but only removed my additions? Please help so I can continue adding info to wiki when I find works or articles that is about the different things. Peace.[[User:Humilityisfine|Humilityisfine]] ([[User talk:Humilityisfine|talk]]) 01:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
:I just did a search and found the following Wiki policy: [[Wikipedia:Spam #External link spamming]]. It might be helpful as you try to resolve this. Good luck. [[User:Eagle4000|Eagle4000]] ([[User talk:Eagle4000|talk]]) 18:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
:Also, please see my reply to you [[Talk:Anthony the Great#The Life and miracles of St. Anthony the Great by St. Athanasius, Bishop|here]]. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

==GA reassessment of [[Catholic social teaching]]==

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the [[WP:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force/Sweeps|GA Sweeps process]]. I have found some concerns which you can see at [[Talk:Catholic social teaching/GA1]]. I have placed the article on hold for seven days. [[User:Jezhotwells|Jezhotwells]] ([[User talk:Jezhotwells|talk]]) 21:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
:Interesting. I haven't had anything to do with that article up until now, but I'll try and take a look in the next few days. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 02:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

== Invitation for comments - Capitalization of La Salle ==

Hi, I am trying to correct the spelling of the page for Saint [[Jean-Baptiste de la Salle]], founder of the [[Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools]]. His name is not correct as he is Jean-Baptiste of "La Salle", not of "la Salle". Because this is a matter of capitalization, I am unable to move the page and require an administrator to do this. As such, I have requested a move on the Talk page of the article [[Talk:Jean-Baptiste_de_la_Salle#Requested_move|here]]. I would appreciate any comments supporting the move (or otherwise). Thank you. -- [[User:SMasters|S Masters]] ([[User talk:SMasters|talk]]) 05:50, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

== RfC - prefixes in article title of Eastern Orthodox officials ==

An RfC is currently open ([[Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(clergy)#naming_convention_associated_with_Eastern_Orthodox_officials]]) regarding the appropriateness of having position titles in the article title of religious Eastern Orthodox officials. Commentary would be welcomed, as the [[WP:NCWC]] talk page has a low level of activity.--[[User:Labattblueboy|Labattblueboy]] ([[User talk:Labattblueboy|talk]]) 21:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

'''Ammended''': The proposal currently tables is to remove of all prefix religious titles, positions and/or honours from the article title.--[[User:Labattblueboy|Labattblueboy]] ([[User talk:Labattblueboy|talk]]) 21:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

== Clean-up and watchdog==
Hi! I wonder, if anyone could have an eye on [[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]]. There's some ''heavy'' POV-pushing, original research, sockpuppetry and else going on in that article. I'ver tried my best to keep the worst nonsense out, but I'm mainly working on de:WP and not here frequently, so it'd be nice if one round here had a look form time to time. If you have question, please contact me here (might be longer till I reply or at [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Papphase de:WP], this business round Seiwert-Fleige and Ralph Napierski (by now perma-banned in most WPs) keeps me on my toes a bit. Regards, --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 19:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism

2010-03-05T19:58:34Z

Papphase: /* RfC - prefixes in article title of Eastern Orthodox officials */

{{todo}}
{{Project Catholicism}}
{{WP Catholic Navigation}}
{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|DarkGoldenRod}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fcf7d3}}};"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Crystal Clear app file-manager.png|50px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" |Archives of past discussions''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid DarkGoldenRod;" |

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 1|Archive 1]]''': December 2005 – June 2006

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 2|Archive 2]]''': July 2006 – August 2006

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 3|Archive 3]]''': September 2006 – January 2008

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 4|Archive 4]]''': February 2008 –
December 2008

'''[[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism/Archive 5|Archive 5]]''': January 2009 –
December 2009

|}

==New members==
A number of new members have joined recently, so I'd like to encourage them to participate more fully in the Project. This page is the best one for any questions, suggestions, proposals and problems to do with all Catholic-related articles. If you are editing such an article, check whether it has the "Project Catholicism" tag on the talk page, which identifies the article as part of this project. If not, please insert it at the head of the talk page using the code: {{tl|Project Catholicism}}
Other useful tasks include suggesting new articles and improvements, rating articles on our quality stage, checking that articles are correct, and helping to find reliable references for articles. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 02:47, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

==Thomas More Article Request for Comment==
There is a request for comment on the [[Thomas More]] article talk page, where an editor has inserted a piece, based on "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" suggesting that More revelled in torturing protestants. Can people with an interest in or knowledge of this topic, comment on this on the [[talk:Thomas More]] page. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 23:31, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
==Copyright concerns related to your project==
This notice is to advise interested editors that a [[Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations|Contributor copyright investigation]] has been opened which may impact this project. Such investigations are launched when contributors have been found to have placed copyrighted content on Wikipedia on multiple occasions. It may result in the deletion of images or text and possibly articles in accordance with [[Wikipedia:Copyright violations]]. The specific investigation which may impact this project is located [[Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20100114|here]].

All contributors with no history of copyright problems are welcome to contribute to CCI clean up. There are instructions for participating on that page. Additional information may be requested from the user who placed this notice, at [[Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations|the process board talkpage]], or from [[Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Instructions#Active_clerks|an active CCI clerk]]. Thank you.  --[[User:Moonriddengirl|Moonriddengirl]] [[User talk:Moonriddengirl|(talk)]] 21:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

==Dispute over article [[Anticlericalism and Freemasonry]]==
There is well sourced material now in the new article [[Anticlericalism and Freemasonry]] which was deleted wholesale from the old article [[Catholicism and Freemasonry]] with very little discussion. What remained, after the deleted material, was moved into either [[Christianity and Freemasonry]] or [[Papal ban of Freemasonry]]. An editor is claiming that the new article [[Anticlericalism and Freemasonry‎]] is just POV or and attack article and tried to blank the article altogether and redirect to an article without all the blanked material. The editor maintains that the article should be deleted. One editor suggested that the editor who dislikes the article nominate it for deletion, which hasn't been done...yet. While the article might have some problems, I don't think it should be blanked or deleted. Those with an interest in the matter might want to join the discussion or improve the article. [[User:Mamalujo|Mamalujo]] ([[User talk:Mamalujo|talk]]) 21:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
:I'll have a look at the page. Basically I think the subject rates coverage in a separate article. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 03:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

== Charles I ==

Hi,

Does anyone know if [[Charles I of England|Charles I]] is venerated as a saint by the Catholic Church? --[[User:AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42|AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42]] ([[User talk:AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42|talk]]) 19:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
:As far as I know, no. Charles I was never a catholic, though I think some high [[Anglican]]s (known as Anglo-Catholics), have made moves in that direction. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 01:05, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
::He is in fact the only official Anglican saint (other people are "heroes"), but not a Catholic one. Didn't you read the article? [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 23:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

==Article [[Christian pilgrimage]]==
This article is little more than a list at the moment. It seems an important subject that could do with some improvement such as adding a history of pilgrimage and of the concept itself. Volunteers?? [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 01:05, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

== WP 1.0 bot announcement ==

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment|WP 1.0 assessment system]]. On '''Saturday, January 23, 2010''', the [[User:WP 1.0 bot|WP 1.0 bot]] will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Catholicism articles by quality statistics|summary table]] will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the [[Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index|WP 1.0 project homepage]]. — Carl ([[User:CBM|CBM]] · [[User talk:CBM|talk]]) 03:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

== GA reassessment of [[Aquinas College, Perth]] ==

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the [[WP:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force/Sweeps|GA Sweeps process]]. I have found some concerns with the article which you can see at [[Talk:Aquinas College, Perth/GA1]]. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. [[User:Jezhotwells|Jezhotwells]] ([[User talk:Jezhotwells|talk]]) 19:29, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

== Naming convention for churches? ==

Is there some sort of naming convention for churches with a specific patron saint? I don't know whether to name an article "St. Anthony Catholic Church" or "St. Anthony's Catholic Church", especially since some of my sources use one format and some use the other. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 16:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

:I can't give a reference. I noticed that the church in Rome is called "St. Peter's.." in Wikipedia. Unfortunately it is almost always said '''both''' ways in conversation. <s>But the possessive appears most correct.</s>

:There are flukes. One church is officially called "The Conversion of St. Paul." So, naturally, everyone calls it "St. Paul's" (or St. Paul). [[User:Student7|Student7]] ([[User talk:Student7|talk]]) 23:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

:Usually, the official name is without an apostrophe (although sometimes it does contain an apostrophe). Regardless of the official name, people -- in conversation -- usually add an " 's"; it seems to flow easier when speaking, especially when using just the nickname (e.g., St. Paul's) instead of the formal name (e.g., St. Paul Catholic Church). For example, one might say in conversation: "I am a parishioner of St. Paul Catholic Church" or "I am a parishioner at St. Paul's." Most people would not say "I am a parishioner at St. Paul." It doesn't sound right, especially since St. Paul is also a person (albeit deceased). The reason most official names don't include the apostrophe is that it is not a possessive use. The church does not "belong" to St. Paul. For example, in Naples, Fla., there is a church called "St. Peter the Apostle Catholic Church". Its name is not "St. Peter the Apostle's Catholic Church". Also, it's not "Our Lady of Perpetual Help's Catholic Church. The inclusion or non-inclusion of the apostrophe is an example of the confusion that arises when the colloquial usage differs from the formal, offical usage. [[User:Eagle4000|Eagle4000]] ([[User talk:Eagle4000|talk]]) 16:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
::Are you sure? If so, that must be an American thing, and historically the churches were indeed the possessions of the saints - legally they belonged to them, & were administered on their behalf, usefully anticipating developments in corporate/trust law. I would always expect an apostrophe in UK English and translated European names, & I think the vast majority have them, though the formal names usually are in the form "Church of St Paul, Location". Ones that don't fit a possessive comfortably just use the name, as in "Our Lady of Perpetual Help". [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 23:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
:::Yes. The possessive is key. You can say "The Church of Saint Paul", but this is normally abbreviated to "Saint Paul's", not "Saint Paul". Even "Our Lady of Perpetual Help" will usually be from "The Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Help." To do otherwise would be to name the Church as if it were the person it is dedicated to. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 01:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

== Need some help expanding Roman Catholic Country Articles ==

I am trying to help expand 3 articles for Roman Catholicism in these 3 [[list of states with limited recognition|partially recognised countries]]. I thought who better to help than this project! Hope someone can lend a hand. But do remember that these are contested areas and information can be difficult to find, so its been a bit of a challenge. Do come to the rescue of these articles!

*<s>[[Roman Catholicism in Transnistria]]</s> this page has been eliminated due to lack of action(Feb 8).
*[[Roman Catholicism in Kosovo]]
*<s>[[Roman Catholicism in Somaliland]]</s> no action from this project taken, page was merged with [[Somaliland]] main page, religion section(Feb 28).

Many thanks in advance, [[User:Outback the koala|Outback the koala]] ([[User talk:Outback the koala|talk]]) 05:34, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

==[[Heralds of the Gospel]]==

Can someone find a way to stop vandalism on this article?
--[[Special:Contributions/94.37.172.194|94.37.172.194]] ([[User talk:94.37.172.194|talk]]) 21:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:The hunter1986|The hunter1986]] ([[User talk:The hunter1986|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/The hunter1986|contribs]])  

==A US diocesan template up for deletion==
A US diocesan template is up for deletion at [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2010_February_3#Template:Catholic_dioceses_of_the_United_States]]. [[User:Student7|Student7]] ([[User talk:Student7|talk]]) 13:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
:That template is better set out than the [[Template:R-C_provinces_in_the_United_States|other one]], and also links the individual dioceses. However it would seem to be incomplete, with only about a quarter of the Archdioceses in the US listed. Perhaps that is why it hasn't been used. Can it be completed? [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 01:53, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
::I just revised the Wikilink for the title of the [[Template:R-C_provinces_in_the_United_States|other template]], so it now displays as: [[List of the Catholic dioceses of the United States#Ecclesiastical province of Anchorage|Roman Catholic Ecclesiastical Provinces in the United States]]. The new link takes you to an already existing list of dioceses -- by province. This might eliminate the need for the diocesan template that is up for deletion. [[User:Eagle4000|Eagle4000]] ([[User talk:Eagle4000|talk]]) 17:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

== Ida Raming, Gisela Forster and Patricia Fresen ==

I translated today article of german writers, catholic theologian and teachers [[Ida Raming]] and [[Gisela Forster]] as South African writer, teacher and catholic theologian [[Patricia Fresen]]. [[User:GLGermann|GLGermann]] ([[User talk:GLGermann|talk]]) 21:17, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

== Hi! I need some help?! ==
I made links to saints like the life of st. Anthony and catholic feast days etc. from different sources and now I have been accused of linkspamming when I carefully linked every single wiki article to the specific page that was about the wiki topic. Anyone can see this clearly if he watches this manually for himself. I dont know what to do. I have followed the wiki rules perfectly?! Even admin seems to not even watched the pages but only removed my additions? Please help so I can continue adding info to wiki when I find works or articles that is about the different things. Peace.[[User:Humilityisfine|Humilityisfine]] ([[User talk:Humilityisfine|talk]]) 01:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
:I just did a search and found the following Wiki policy: [[Wikipedia:Spam #External link spamming]]. It might be helpful as you try to resolve this. Good luck. [[User:Eagle4000|Eagle4000]] ([[User talk:Eagle4000|talk]]) 18:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
:Also, please see my reply to you [[Talk:Anthony the Great#The Life and miracles of St. Anthony the Great by St. Athanasius, Bishop|here]]. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

==GA reassessment of [[Catholic social teaching]]==

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the [[WP:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force/Sweeps|GA Sweeps process]]. I have found some concerns which you can see at [[Talk:Catholic social teaching/GA1]]. I have placed the article on hold for seven days. [[User:Jezhotwells|Jezhotwells]] ([[User talk:Jezhotwells|talk]]) 21:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
:Interesting. I haven't had anything to do with that article up until now, but I'll try and take a look in the next few days. [[user:Xandar|'''''Xan''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''dar''''']] 02:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

== Invitation for comments - Capitalization of La Salle ==

Hi, I am trying to correct the spelling of the page for Saint [[Jean-Baptiste de la Salle]], founder of the [[Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools]]. His name is not correct as he is Jean-Baptiste of "La Salle", not of "la Salle". Because this is a matter of capitalization, I am unable to move the page and require an administrator to do this. As such, I have requested a move on the Talk page of the article [[Talk:Jean-Baptiste_de_la_Salle#Requested_move|here]]. I would appreciate any comments supporting the move (or otherwise). Thank you. -- [[User:SMasters|S Masters]] ([[User talk:SMasters|talk]]) 05:50, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

== RfC - prefixes in article title of Eastern Orthodox officials ==

An RfC is currently open ([[Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(clergy)#naming_convention_associated_with_Eastern_Orthodox_officials]]) regarding the appropriateness of having position titles in the article title of religious Eastern Orthodox officials. Commentary would be welcomed, as the [[WP:NCWC]] talk page has a low level of activity.--[[User:Labattblueboy|Labattblueboy]] ([[User talk:Labattblueboy|talk]]) 21:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

'''Ammended''': The proposal currently tables is to remove of all prefix religious titles, positions and/or honours from the article title.--[[User:Labattblueboy|Labattblueboy]] ([[User talk:Labattblueboy|talk]]) 21:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

== Clean-up and watchdog==
Hi! I wonder, if anyone could have an eye on [[Albert Seiwert-Fleige]]. There's some ''heavy'' POV-pushing, original research, sockpuppetry and else going on in that article. I'ver tried my best to keep the worst nonsense out, but I'm mainly working on de:WP and not here frequently, so it'd be nice if one round here had a look form time to time. If you have question, please contact me here (might be longer till I reply or at [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Papphase de:WP], this business round Seiwert-Fleige and Ralph Napierski (by now perma-banned in most WPs) keeps me on my toes a bit. Regards, --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 19:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Papphase

2010-02-25T09:30:37Z

Papphase: /* Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige --- Papphase your lies are laughable */

== Welcome ==
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== [[Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige]] --- Papphase your lies are laughable ==

You are spreading the same lies as this Bischof-Ralph or Ban Yoo user does. Are they your sockpuppets?
Ofcourse is Seiwert Fleige a recognized catholic bishop. He did get consecrated in Palmarian Catholic Church. This is a catholic church. So who does not recognize this? Maybe members of other churches. But do you want to mark all anglican bishops as "unrecognized" because other churches dont recognize them? NPOV is needed in wikipedia !
And it is very obvious that the pope of the Roman Catholic Church recognized his consecration since he did celebrate mass with him. Or do you want to explain again that Seiwert Fleige tricked the whole world with his costume dressing ? This is realy laughable !
And the constant lie that his consecrator Archbishop [[Pierre_Martin_Ngô_Đình_Thục]] was not Roman Catholic is very easy proven wrong you only need to study the information in wikipedia.
Why you use a shortmessage in shortnews to proofe that Napierski is a faker? This shows itself your lies and POV since the largest German Magazines Der SPIEGEL and Wirtschaftswoche explain that Napierski did find security problems in Ebay and offered to fix them but Ebay who wasnt able to fix them after some month didnt care. And the most reliable IT-Magazin in Germany IX - Magazin documented his scientific work in his area of braincomputing. Maybe you are not a liar but you just have a huge lack of informations then my latest version of the article can fill this lack:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Seiwert-Fleige&diff=345104517&oldid=345100878
But if you are serious about what you said then it should be easy for you to prove that these informations are wrong.
And be aware that my article contains this warnings that you are talking about and I am not happy that they have been removed together with alot of other information.

--[[User:Templeknight|Templeknight]] ([[User talk:Templeknight|talk]]) 11:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

:Oh please, Napierski is well known for his strange antics, craving publicity. Currently is acting bishop, offering "real cross relics" for personal gain, posting souvenir documents as papal recognitions claiming to be "Professor" (which could actually give him some legal toruble in Germany, but no one takes him seriously enough, I guess). And, yes, that's faking. And if you are ''seriously'' suggesting that Napierski did in fact make grounds in braincomputing, you should have a look at his patents at DEPATISnet. Hell, this guy cant' even type and his "findings" are plain gibberish. Nothing of that ever worked. But i suspect you know all of that quite well, ''Ralph''.

Besides, I don't care which fringe church Fleige is part of, that he's recognized by the Roman Catholic Church is an outright lie, disproved by various documents from German dioceses. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase#top|talk]])

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige

2010-02-02T11:44:36Z

Papphase:

===[[Alfred Seiwert-Fleige]]===
{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|B}}

:{{la|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2010 January 29#{{anchorencode:Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{•}} {{plainlink|1=http://toolserver.org/~betacommand/cgi-bin/afdparser?afd={{urlencode:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}}|2=AfD statistics}})
:({{findsources|Alfred Seiwert-Fleige}})
Referring from the speedy deletion queue. The reason given for speedy deletion was: "This article is a hoax based on a nonsense "Pope document" which can be bought in Via di S. Pelegrin, Rome, for 8 €. There has never been any regularizstion, indeed the archdiocese of Hamburg issued an official warning end of 2009 of Mr. Alfred Seiwert-Fleige, posing unlawfully as bishop as the Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei states. Please remove this pretentious nonsense swiftly." No opinion as nominator. [[User:TheProject|theProject]] ([[User talk:TheProject|talk]]) 19:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
:'''Delete'''. There are no sources cited, and the article is disorganized and very unencyclopedic. There is even a portion of the article which goes very off topic and talks about excommunication stuff. I don't really see a reason to save this article, but if someone wants to, then they can be my guest, I guess, but my default vote is to delete this. [[User:Backtable|Backtable ]][[User talk:Backtable|Speak to me]][[Special:Contributions/Backtable|concerning my deeds.]] 19:54, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

:'''DONT Delete please''' this article is not a hoax it is about a very important bishop because he is the first one out of thuc-line that did end the shisma with the pope and came into union with pope again. because of this importance the article explains detailed the basis of his excommunication and its ending. The picture showing him and the pope during mass is a very reliable proof. the warnings against this bishop are the same warnings that german bishops give against the bishops of Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX). but they are all in union again too. it is all about the tridentine mass and discussions about the vaticanum II. there is many to add to this article and i have a lot informations I can add.
--[[User:Bischof-Ralph|Bischof-Ralph]] ([[User talk:Bischof-Ralph|talk]]) 21:20, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''<s>Delete</s>''' Incoherent and of uncertain notability apart from (possibly) in certain Roman Catholic circles. References: 1) two oldish men, one presumably a pope. 2) A 'blessing' (?) from a pope. So? [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 22:04, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
::See '''Proposal''' lower down. [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 19:02, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

::Warning, this Account --> [[User:Bischof-Ralph]] is a [http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,grossbild-244126-236673,00.html Fake].--[[User:NebMaatRe|NebMaatRe]] ([[User talk:NebMaatRe|talk]]) 11:08, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not a fake and this NebMaatRe is spreading lies about me. He is obviously an antesemitic atheist that made me already a lot of problems in german wikipedia too.
I did restore the article after the vandalism of NebMaatRe and i think i did a mistake and accidentialy deleted this part about the controversy about this article.
I am sorry for this please install this again. I am new in wikipedia so I dont know how to add this again.
Thank you.
I dont think Wikipedia should be abused for private religious posting wars like NebMaatRe and some others of his group are doing it !
--[[User:Bischof-Ralph|Bischof-Ralph]] ([[User talk:Bischof-Ralph|talk]]) 12:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' User:Bischof-Ralph is in fact blocked on the German Wikipedia. For some background on the issues brought up in the article, please see [[Sedevacantism]] ('see' wasn't intended as a pun...). The business in the article seems to me to be unencyclopaedic, being unreferenced and highly disputed. Ralph Napierski (which is the claimed name of Bischof-Ralph) seems quite involved in promotional exercises and is to be found on MySpace etc, which is not, I think, a conventional area for bishops. I have no opinions on the validity of the theology involved here, not being an adherent of either side. I do know that one side appears to think the other side to be 'heretical', and the 'heretical' side think the established side to be superseded (but not recognising it). There seems to be some point making here that reconciliation has taken place, thus legitimising the activities of the 'heretics'. No evidence is given, and anyway, if there was, it should be in the main article. As a postscript, to show the complications possible here, I give a quote from [[Sedevacantism]]: "Orthodox Catholic doctrine therefore considers sedevacantist ordinations of priests and bishops valid where the appropriate conditions are fulfilled, but regards them as sinful and canonically criminal acts without any standing in Church law." Makes international politics look like a bed of roses.... [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 13:47, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Further''' I quote from Napierski's Jesus Christ University site http://jcu-engl.cms4people.de/mission.html
"BECOME A MISSIONARY AND A PASTOR !

START TODAY !

Download the >>>SEMINARBOOK<<< (PDF 2MB) with all informations."

Unusual from a Catholic organisation. Rather more reminiscent of certain American Protestant organisations. [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 14:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

thank you for your comment.
it is the pope himself that is sending the priests and bishops to be active in the internet:
http://www.youtube.com/vatican?gl=GB&hl=en-GB#p/a/u/2/pWAYaZeUja0
The pope himself has a facebook account....
Yes i have many accounts and homepages and i am in many communities active.
myspace account: http://www.myspace.com/tridentine_mass
In many communities i am well known so to say that i am a fake is simply rediculous !
Wikipedia is not the place for religious attacking we should concentrate on collecting facts instead of spreading ideas.
In Germany I am blocked because of antisemitism which is rediculous as well. To say that Jesus Christ should be preached to everybody including the jews is not antisemitic ! I am new in wikipedia but i think diskussions about the topic of the article should be discussed in its discussion page and published when there is proof.
right now User: NebMaatRe is doing Vandalism.
--[[User:Bischof-Ralph|Bischof-Ralph]] ([[User talk:Bischof-Ralph|talk]]) 14:14, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

:'''Delete'''. Fails [[WP:BIO|notability]] so far. Just another priest. There are thousands of them spreading their views. Big deal. I don't see anything here to make it encyclopedic. It also seems the OP has an [[WP:SPA|agenda]], as per his comments. -- [[User:Alexf|Alexf]][[User talk:Alexf|(talk)]] 14:18, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Proposal''' I've just gone through the article's evolution (yawn), and up to (and including)the Revision as of 01:36, 29 November 2009 the article seems to have evolved fairly smoothly, with a consensus. After that date, when Bischof-Ralph commenced (on Jan 28 2010), it has deteriorated rapidly. I would propose that the article be reverted to the 29 November 2009 version, and then speedily kept. It was obviously considered worth keeping then, and in that version I would agree with the consensus of that day. [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 19:02, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Note''' [[User:Bischof-Ralph]] is currently indefinitely blocked on the English Wikipedia. [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 19:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Christianity|list of Christianity-related deletion discussions]].  -- [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 20:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Re: Proposal''' If it gets reverted to that version, then there will be a dead external link on that page, but I am not against reverting it there otherwise, and I guess it could be kept. Some sources would be nice too. That's just my two cents. [[User:Backtable|Backtable ]][[User talk:Backtable|Speak to me]][[Special:Contributions/Backtable|concerning my deeds.]] 22:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Weak Keep: wikify and clean up''' This article needs wikifying, but the subject as a Catholic bishop, even if out of communion with Rome for a time, is presumably notable. No view on what version should be the starting point. Or are there too many issues of [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:OR]]? Because the consecrating bishops do not have articles, and indeed due to the gernal lack of sources, I find it difficult to judge the credibility of the information. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 16:15, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

*'''Keep:''' I agree with Peterkingiron, subject as a Catholic bishop is notable.
--[[User:Fan-of-Pope|Fan-of-Pope]] ([[User talk:Fan-of-Pope|talk]]) 10:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

*'''Re: Proposal''' This version is not a good version because instead of changing wrong informations there is written in the article that this information is wrong. statements like this belong on the discussion page and then there has to be found proof and then there has to be changed the information.
Since this article is very short anyways we should just fix it and keep only the information that is proofed and agreed with by us.
Example: To Mention that the city Rosenheim mentioned in the article is the wrong Rosenheim must not be in the article itself but on the discussion page. And after telling the source of this information the article should be updated with refering to the correct Rosenheim. --[[User:Fan-of-Pope|Fan-of-Pope]] ([[User talk:Fan-of-Pope|talk]]) 10:51, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

This man is not a catholic bishop. He is considered a schismatic by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and warned against by many German dioceses for being an impostor. I have added sources for this to the articel as well as deleted some of the nonsense about reunification with the Holy See. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 11:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

George O'Hanlon

2010-01-16T17:04:16Z

Papphase: that's the way

{{Infobox actor
| name = George O'Hanlon
| image = Joe McDoakes title card.jpg
| caption = O'Hanlon as [[Joe McDoakes]], in his native habitat
| birthname =
| birthdate = {{birth date|1912|11|23}}
| birthplace = [[Brooklyn, New York]], [[USA|United States]]
| deathdate = {{dda|1989|2|11|1912|11|23}}
| deathplace = [[Los Angeles, California]], [[USA|United States]]
| yearsactive = 1932-1989
| restingplace =
| spouse =
| children =
| imdb_id =
| awards =
}}

'''George O'Hanlon''' (November 23, 1912 - February 11, 1989) was an [[United States|American]] screen [[actor]], [[comedian]], and [[voice actor]]. He was a native of [[Brooklyn, New York|Brooklyn]], [[NYC|New York City]].

Movie fans know him best as the star of [[Warner Bros]]' live-action ''[[Joe McDoakes]]'' [[short subject]]s from [[1942 in film|1942]] to [[1956 in film|1956]]. Television viewers recognize him as the voice of [[George Jetson]] in [[Hanna-Barbera]]'s 1962 [[prime-time]] [[animation|animated]] [[television series]] ''[[The Jetsons]]'' and its 1980s revival.

From the early 1940s, O'Hanlon was a character comedian in feature films, usually playing the hero's streetwise, cynical friend. He appeared in features for various studios while continuing in the Joe McDoakes role for Warners. After the McDoakes series lapsed in 1956, O'Hanlon returned to character work, mostly in television (two rare post-McDoakes movie appearances are in ''[[Bop Girl Goes Calypso]]'' and ''[[Kronos]]'', both from 1957).

In 1958, O'Hanlon played a New York publicist for a fashion model, Loco Jones, portrayed by [[Barbara Eden]] in her first sitcom, the [[Television syndication|syndicated]] [[romantic comedy]], ''[[How to Marry a Millionaire (TV series)|How to Marry a Millionaire]]''. In the autumn of 1964, he appeared as a cab driver in the thirteen-episode [[Columbia Broadcasting System|CBS]] [[drama]] ''[[The Reporter (TV series)|The Reporter]]'' starring [[Harry Guardino]] in the title role of Danny Taylor of the fictitious ''New York Globe'' [[newspaper]]. [[Gary Merrill]] co-starred as [[city editor]] Lou Sheldon.

In 1962, He appeared famously as the voice of [[George Jetson]].

In 1966, O'Hanlon appeared opposite [[Jackie Gleason]] as Ralph Kramden's loudmouthed "bum brother-in-law", on Gleason's first TV show of the 1966-67 season.

O'Hanlon married Nancy, a fellow actor, and they had two children. (actor George O'Hanlon Jr and daughter Laurie O'Hanlon, a registered nurse).

In 1971, O'Hanlon appeared as a bear trainer on TV's ''[[The Partridge Family]]'', Season 2, episode 206, "Whatever Happened to Moby Dick?"

O'Hanlon died of a [[stroke]] on February 11, 1989. A few moments before his death, he completed his role as [[George Jetson]] in ''[[Jetsons: The Movie]]''. The film was finished in time to dedicate the film to O'Hanlon, along with co-star [[Mel Blanc]], who died later the same year. His interment was located in Pierce Brothers Valley Oaks Cemetery in [[Westlake Village, California]].

==External links==
*{{imdb name|name=George O'Hanlon|id=0641197}}
*{{findagrave|6627340}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Ohanlon, George}}
[[Category:1912 births]]
[[Category:1989 deaths]]
[[Category:American film actors]]
[[Category:American television actors]]
[[Category:American voice actors]]
[[Category:American comedians]]
[[Category:People from Brooklyn]]
[[Category:Deaths from stroke]]

{{US-screen-actor-1910s-stub}}
{{US-voice-actor-stub}}

[[de:George O'Hanlon]]

George O'Hanlon

2010-01-16T16:57:15Z

Papphase:

John Demjanjuk

2009-12-04T13:45:35Z

Papphase: /* Trial in Germany */

{{Infobox Person
| name = John Demjanjuk
| image = John Demjanjuk 3.jpg
| image_size = 235px
| caption = Demjanjuk hearing his death sentence on April 25, 1988 in [[Jerusalem]], [[Israel]]
| birth_date = {{birth date and age|mf=yes|1920|4|3}}
| birth_place = Dubovi Makharyntsi,<ref name=oblasts/> [[Ukraine]]
| death_date =
| death_place =
| occupation = Retired auto worker, Nazi prison guard
}}
{{The Holocaust}}
'''John Demjanjuk''' (born '''Ivan Mykolayovych Demyanyuk'''; {{lang-ua|Іван Миколайович Дем'янюк}}; April 3, 1920) is a retired auto worker and former<ref>[http://www.fox40.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-eu-germany-demjanjuk-timeline,0,7839587.story Chronology of the Demjanjuk case]. Fox 40. July 13, 2009.</ref> [[United States citizen]], who gained notoriety after being accused of [[war crime]]s.

Born in Ukraine during the [[Polish–Soviet War]] (when territories in Ukraine quickly changed hands), Demjanjuk migrated to the [[United States]] in 1951. He was [[Deportation|deported]] to [[Israel]] in 1986 and later sentenced to death there in 1988 for war crimes, based on his identification by [[Israel]]i [[Holocaust]] survivors as "Ivan the Terrible," a notorious [[Schutzstaffel|SS]] guard at the [[Treblinka extermination camp|Treblinka]] and [[Sobibor extermination camp|Sobibor]] [[extermination camp]]s during the period 1942–1943 who committed murder and acts of extraordinarily savage violence against camp prisoners. His conviction for crimes against humanity was later overturned by the [[Israeli Supreme Court]] in 1993 due to a finding of reasonable doubt based on evidence suggesting that Demjanjuk was not "Ivan the Terrible" and had, in fact, been a guard at camps besides the one at Treblinka.<ref>Hedges, Chris (August 12, 1993). [http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/12/world/israel-recommends-that-demjanjuk-be-released.html?scp=3&sq=Demjanjuk%20&st=cse Israel Recommends that Demjanjuk Be Released]. ''The New York Times''.</ref> After the trial, he was returned to [[Cleveland]], [[Ohio]]. He eventually moved to nearby [[Seven Hills, Ohio|Seven Hills]], [[Ohio]].

Demjanjuk was put on trial again in 2001 on charges that he had served as a guard at the [[Sobibor extermination camp|Sobibór]] and [[Majdanek]] camps in occupied [[Poland]] and at the [[Flossenbürg concentration camp|Flossenbürg]] camp in Germany. His [[deportation]] was again ordered in 2005, but he remained in the United States as no country would agree to accept him. On April 2, 2009, it was announced that Demjanjuk would be deported to [[Germany]] and would face trial there on charges of accessory to 29,000 counts of murder. On April 3, 2009, a judge ordered that Demjanjuk be given a temporary stay, pending a judicial decision on his newly filed (April 2) motion to reopen his deportation order, on the ground that deporting him would amount to torture under the applicable international convention.<ref name=Reuters-2009-04-03/> The stay was overturned on April 6.<ref>[http://twitter.com/BreakingNews/statuses/1463186040 AP Breaking News]. [[Twitter]].</ref>

On April 14, 2009, immigration agents began Demjanjuk's deportation, removing him from his home in a wheelchair. He was scheduled to fly to Munich from [[Burke Lakefront Airport]] in Cleveland,<ref name=AP1/> but the legal order was again reversed and another stay granted by the court.<ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30210535/ Alleged Nazi guard released from custody]. [[MSNBC]]. April 14, 2009.</ref> On May 7, 2009, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected Demjanjuk's appeal and on May 8, 2009, he was ordered to surrender to U.S. Immigration agents for deportation to Germany.<ref>Winter, Michael (May 8, 2009). [http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/05/demjanjuk-ordered-to-surrender-for-deportation.html Demjanjuk ordered to surrender for deportation]. ''[[USA Today]]''.</ref> On May 11, Demjanjuk left his Cleveland home by [[ambulance]], and was taken to the airport, where he was deported by plane to Germany. He arrived there the next morning on May 12.<ref> [http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/05/11/Demjanjuk-leaves-home-in-ambulance/UPI-58871242072603/ Demjanjuk en route to Germany]. United Press International. May 11, 2009.</ref><ref>Kulish, Nicholas (May 12, 2009). [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/world/europe/13german.html?_r=1&hp Accused Nazi Arrives in Munich]. ''[[The New York Times]]''.</ref> On July 13, 2009, Demjanjuk was formally charged with 27,900 counts of acting as an accessory to murder, one for each person who died at Sobibor during the time he is accused of serving as a guard at the Nazi death camp. On 30 November 2009 Demjanjuk's trial, expected to last for several months, began in [[Munich]] <ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8386576.stm John Demjanjuk war crimes trial begins in Munich at bbc.co.uk]</ref>.

==Background to alleged Holocaust involvement==
{{refimprove|date=May 2009}}
Demjanjuk was born in Dubovi Makharyntsi,<ref name=oblasts>formerly [[Kiev Governorate]], presently [[Koziatyn]] district, [[Vinnytsia Oblast]]</ref> [[Ukraine]]. In 1942, Demjanjuk, who was a member of the [[Red Army]], became a German [[prisoner of war]] and was moved to a German camp. He survived the ordeal and was sent to the [[Trawniki concentration camp]], later serving in Majdanek, Sobibor and Flossenbürg Nazi camps. In early 1945, Demjanjuk joined the [[Andrey Vlasov|Vlasov]] Army, which was closely aligned with Nazi Germany against the Soviets.<ref name=rosen>Rosenbach, Marcel (November 18, 2008). [http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,591257,00.html Sixty Years Later, Alleged Nazi Guard May Stand Trial]. ''[[Der Spiegel]].''</ref>

Demjanjuk, his wife and their child arrived in New York aboard the ''[[USS General W. G. Haan]]'' on February 9, 1952.<ref name=rosen/> On November 14, 1958, Demjanjuk became a [[naturalized citizen]] of the [[United States]]. He and his wife, whom he met in a displaced persons camp, moved to [[Indiana]] with their daughter (they later had two more children) and then to [[Cleveland, Ohio]] suburb [[Seven Hills, Ohio|Seven Hills]], where Demjanjuk became a diesel engine mechanic for the nearby Ford auto plant.

In August 1977, the Justice Department submitted a request to the [[United States District Court for the Northern District of Ohio]] that Demjanjuk's citizenship be revoked on the basis that he had allegedly concealed his involvement with Nazi death camps on his immigration application in 1951. The request followed a lengthy investigation by the [[Immigration and Naturalization Service|INS]] after Demjanjuk was identified by Holocaust survivors on a photo spread used in the investigation of [[Feodor Fedorenko]], a [[Treblinka]] Concentration Camp guard. Fedorenko was later extradited to Ukraine on his admission that he was such a guard and that he lied on his US immigration applications.

On June 23, 1981, [[United States district court|District Court]] Judge [[Frank J. Battisti]] ruled that Demjanjuk had lied on his application, that he had served as an SS guard at Treblinka and for a brief period at [[Sobibor extermination camp|Sobibór]], and that he had undergone training at the [[Trawniki concentration camp#History of Trawniki|Trawniki]] SS training camp. Demjanjuk's attorneys appealed this ruling.

==Trial in Israel==
In October 1983, Israel issued an [[extradition]] request for Demjanjuk to stand trial on Israeli soil under the Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (Punishment) Law of 1950. Demjanjuk was deported to Israel on February 28, 1986.<ref name=BBC>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/29/newsid_4561000/4561917.stm Israeli court sets Demjanjuk free]. BBC News. July 29, 1993.</ref> He was put on trial between November 26, 1986, and April 18, 1988, before a special tribunal comprising Supreme Court Judge Dov Levin, Jerusalem District Court Judges Zvi Tal, and [[Dalia Dorner]].<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Anti-Semitism%20and%20the%20Holocaust/Documents%20and%20communiques/THE%20DEMJANJUK%20CASE-%20FACTUAL%20AND%20LEGAL%20DETAILS%20-%2028 The Demjanjuk case]. Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. July 28, 1993.</ref>

The prosecution team consisting of Yonah Blatman, the State Attorney, Michael Shaked of the Jerusalem District Attorney's Office, Dennis Goldman and Eli Gabay of the International Section of the State Attorney's Office, Michael Horowitz and Gabi Finder and others, claimed during the trial that Demjanjuk had been recruited into the Soviet army in 1940, and that he had fought until he was captured by German troops in the Eastern [[Crimea]] in May 1942.

Demjanjuk was then, according to the prosecutors, brought to a German [[prisoner of war]] camp in [[Chelmno]] in July 1942. Prosecutors claimed that Demjanjuk volunteered to collaborate with the Germans and was sent to the camp at Trawniki, where he was trained to guard prisoners and was given a firearm, a uniform, and an ID card with his photograph. The principal allegation was that Demjanjuk was "Ivan Grozny" or "Ivan the Terrible" of Treblinka, who operated the diesel engines sending gas to the death chamber.<ref>The case of John Demjanjuk, Sr. — Hon. James A. Traficant, Jr. (Extension of Remarks — March 1, 1991), James A. Traficant, Jr., in the House of Representatives, February 28, 1991 (p. E735).</ref> Prosecutors based part of these allegations on an ID card, but defense attorneys countered that the card was forged by Soviet authorities to discredit Demjanjuk. The card had Demjanjuk's photograph, which he identified as his picture at the time, as well as signatures of various Nazi officers who were deposed and confirmed the authenticity of their signatures. The paper and ink on the card were tested by internationally renowned experts who confirmed that the card was authentic. The original of the card was presented in court in Israel as supplied by the Soviets.<ref name=Nizkor_trial>[http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/d/demjanjuk-john/israeli-data/demjanjuk-s1-2.html The Demjanjuk Case: The Trial]. [[Nizkor Project]].</ref> Demjanjuk admitted that the scar under his armpit was an SS tattoo, which he removed after the war. During the trial, Demjanjuk was again identified on the photo spread by Otto Horn, a former Nazi guard at Treblinka.<ref name=Nizkor_trial/>

Demjanjuk testified during the trial that he was imprisoned in a camp in [[Chelmno]] until 1944, when he was transferred to another camp in [[Austria]], where he remained until he joined an anti-Soviet Russian military unit funded by the German government until the surrender of Germany to the [[Allies]] in 1945.

On April 18, 1988, the court found Demjanjuk guilty of all charges. One week later it sentenced him to death by [[hanging]].<ref name="Sentence">''Israel 50'', 1997 edition, ISBN 965-474-005-2.</ref> Demjanjuk was placed in [[solitary confinement]] during the appeals process.<ref name= "Acquittal">Hedges, Chris (July 30, 1993). [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE5D8103AF933A05754C0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all Acquittal in Jerusalem; Israel Court Sets Demjanjuk Free, But He Is Now Without a Country]. ''The New York Times''.</ref>

On July 29, 1993, five Israeli Supreme Court judges overturned the guilty verdict on appeal. Their ruling was based on the written statements of former guards at Treblinka that identified Ivan the Terrible as "Ivan Marchenko."<ref name= "Acquittal"/> US officials had originally been aware, without informing Demjanjuk's attorneys, of the testimony of two of these German guards.<ref name="time 1993">Beyer, Lisa; Johnson, Julie; Myers, Ken (August 2, 1993). [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978969,00.html Ivan the Not-So-Terrible]. ''[[Time (magazine)|Time]]''.</ref> However the Israeli justices mentioned how Demjanjuk had incorrectly listed his mother's maiden name as "Marchenko" in his 1951 application for U.S. visa.<ref name= "Acquittal"/> Demjanjuk says he just wrote a common Ukrainian [[surname]] after he forgot his mother's real name.<ref name="time 1993"/> The former guards' statements were obtained after World War II by the Soviets, who prosecuted Ukrainians who assisted the Nazis as auxiliary forces during the War. Most of the guards were executed after the war by the Soviets, and their written statements were not obtained by Israeli authorities until 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed.<ref name="time 1993"/>

The Israeli Supreme Court's 405-page ruling read: "The main issue of the indictment sheet filed against the appellant was his identification as Ivan the Terrible, an operator of the gas chambers in the extermination camp at Treblinka ... By virtue of this gnawing [new evidence indicating mistaken identity] ... we restrained ourselves from convicting the appellant of the horrors of Treblinka. Ivan Demjanjuk has been acquitted by us, because of doubt, of the terrible charges attributed to Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka. This was the proper course for judges who cannot examine the heart and mind, but have only what their eyes see and read." They also added: "The facts proved the appellant's participation in the extermination process. The matter is closed — but not complete, the complete truth is not the prerogative of the human judge."<ref name= "Acquittal"/>

The court judgment also addressed evidence against Demjanjuk that was not included in his indictment. The judges agreed that Demjanjuk most likely served as a Nazi ''Wachmann'' (guard) in the Trawniki unit<ref name= "Acquittal"/> and had been posted at [[Sobibor extermination camp]] and two other camps. Evidence to assist this claim included a certificate from Trawniki bearing Demjanjuk's picture and his exact personal information<ref name= "Acquittal" /> — allegedly found in the Soviet archives — in addition to German documents that mentioned Wachmann Demjanjuk and mentioned his date and place of birth. Statements of another Wachmann (Denilchenko), both in 1949 and again in 1979, identified Demjanjuk as the Wachmann who served with him at [[Sobibor extermination camp]]. Demjanjuk's Trawniki certificate also implies that he served at Sobibor, as do the German orders of March 1943 posting the Trawniki unit to this area.<ref name= "Acquittal" />

After Demjanjuk's acquittal, the Israeli Attorney General decided to release him rather than to pursue charges of committing crimes at Sobibor. Ten petitions against the decision were made to the Supreme Court. On August 18, 1993, the court rejected the petitions on the grounds that (1) the principle of [[double jeopardy]] would be infringed, (2) that new charges would be unreasonable given the seriousness of those of which he had been acquitted, (3) that conviction on the new charges would be unlikely, and (4) that Demjanjuk was extradited from the United States specifically to stand trial for offenses attributed to Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka, and not for other alternative charges.<ref> [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Anti-Semitism%20and%20the%20Holocaust/Documents%20and%20communiques/DECISION%20OF%20ISRAEL%20SUPREME%20COURT%20ON%20PETITION%20CONCE Decision of Israel Supreme Court on petition concerning John (Ivan) Demjanjuk]. Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. August 18, 1993.</ref>

Demjanjuk was released to return to the United States. In 1993, the [[United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit|Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals]] ruled that Demjanjuk was a victim of [[fraud on the court]], as [[United States federal government]] trial lawyers with the Office of Special Investigations had recklessly failed to disclose [[evidence (law)|evidence]], and his US citizenship was restored. In a report submitted to the Sixth Circuit prior to the Israeli acquittal, federal judge [[Thomas Anderton Wiseman Jr.|Thomas Wiseman, Jr.]] concluded that American federal officials had erred in asserting that Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible, but that evidence instead pointed to Demjanjuk being a lesser SS agent.<ref name="time 1993"/>

==Charges and Deportation==
===Restoration and revocation of U.S. citizenship===
On February 20, 1998, [[Federal District Court]] [[Judge]] [[Paul Matia]] ruled that Demjanjuk's citizenship could be restored.

On May 19, 1999, the [[United States Department of Justice|Justice Department]] filed a new civil complaint against Demjanjuk. No mention was made in the new complaint of the previous allegations that Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible. Instead, the complaint alleged that Demjanjuk served as a guard at the [[Sobibor extermination camp|Sobibór]] and [[Majdanek]] camps in [[Poland]] under German occupation and at the [[Flossenbürg concentration camp|Flossenburg]] camp in Germany. It additionally accused Demjanjuk of being a member of an SS-run unit that took part in capturing nearly two million Jews in the [[General Government|General Government of Poland]].

Demjanjuk was put on trial again in 2001, and in February 2002, Matia ruled that Demjanjuk had not produced any credible evidence of his whereabouts during the war and that the Justice Department had proved its case against him.

On April 30, 2004, a three-judge panel of the [[6th US Circuit Court of Appeals]] ruled that Demjanjuk could be again stripped of his US citizenship because the Justice Department had presented "clear, unequivocal, and convincing evidence" of Demjanjuk's service in Nazi death camps.<ref>{{Cite court|litigants=USA v. Demjanjuk|opinion=No. 02-3529|court=6th Cir.|date=April 30, 2004|url=http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/04a0125p-06.pdf}}</ref> Demjanjuk vowed to appeal the ruling.

===New deportation order===
On December 28, 2005, an [[U.S. Immigration Judge|immigration judge]] ordered Demjanjuk deported to Germany, Poland, or Ukraine. In an attempt to avoid deportation, Demjanjuk sought protection under the United Nations Convention against Torture, claiming that he would be prosecuted and tortured if he were deported to Ukraine. Chief U.S. Immigration Judge Michael Creppy ruled that there is no evidence to substantiate Demjanjuk's claim that he would be mistreated if sent to Ukraine.<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/29/national/29demjanjuk.html?_r=1 Judge Orders Accused Camp Guard Deported], [[N.Y. Times]] (December 29, 2005)</ref>

On December 22, 2006, the [[Board of Immigration Appeals]] (the Board or BIA) upheld the deportation order.<ref name="BBCNews">[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6202319.stm US 'Nazi guard' faces deportation]. BBC News. December 22, 2006.</ref> On January 30, 2008, the [[Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit]] denied Demjanjuk's request for review.<ref name="X">Demjanjuk did not, on his appeal, contest the Board's decision on its merits. His sole ground for appeal was that the Immigration Judge who had heard his case — Judge Creppy — was not an "immigration judge" within the meaning of the law and was therefore without jurisdiction to decide the case, thereby nullifying the proceeding. The Sixth Circuit found his argument to be without merit. {{Cite court|litigants=Demjanjuk v. Mukasey|opinion=No. 07-3022|court=6th Cir.|date=January 30, 2008|url=http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/circs/6th/073022p.pdf}}</ref> On May 19, 2008, the [[Supreme Court of the United States|U. S. Supreme Court]] denied Demjanjuk's petition for [[certiorari]], declining to hear his case against the deportation order.<ref name="Y">[http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1952867920080519 Accused Nazi guard Demjanjuk loses court appeal] Reuters, May 19, 2008.</ref><ref>[http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/051908.ZOR.html ''Demjanjuk v. Mukasey''], no. 07-10487, U.S. Supreme Court, May 19, 2008 (certiorari denied).</ref> The Supreme Court's denial of review meant that the order of removal was final; no other appeal was possible.

===Deportation proceedings and actions===
One month after the U.S. Supreme Court's refusal to hear Demjanjuk's case, on June 19, 2008 Germany announced it would seek the extradition of Demjanjuk to Germany. The file on Demjanjuk was compiled by the special German office investigating Nazi crimes. Kurt Schrimm, who heads the office, said that investigators "have managed to obtain hundred of documents and have also found a number of witnesses who spoke out against Demjanjuk". "For the first time we have even found lists of names of the people who Demjanjuk personally led into the gas chambers. We have no doubt that he is responsible for the death of over 29,000 Jews" at the Nazis' Sobibor death camp, he said. Kurt Schrimm said that Demjanjuk could be brought to Germany by the end of 2008; however, this did not occur<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7721631.stm Germans seek 'Nazi guard' charges]. BBC News. November 11, 2008.</ref><ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Germany-Nazi-Guard.html Germany seeks extradition of Nazi guard from US]. ''The New York Times''. June 19, 2008.</ref>

On November 10, 2008, German federal prosecutor Kurt Schrimm directed prosecutors to file in Munich for extradition, since Demjanjuk once lived there. On December 9, 2008, a German federal court declared that Demjanjuk could be tried for his alleged role in the Holocaust.<ref>{{cite news |first= |last= |authorlink= |coauthors= |title=Court: 'Ivan the Terrible' can be tried in Germany |url=http://www.thelocal.de/national/20081211-16079.html |work=[[Agence France-Presse]] |publisher=TheLocal.de |date=December 11, 2008 |accessdate=December 13, 2008 }}</ref> Some three months later, on March 11, 2009, Demjanjuk was charged with more than 29,000 counts of accessory to murder of Jewish prisoners at the [[Sobibor extermination camp]].<ref>Rising, David (March 11, 2009). [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090311/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_demjanjuk Former Nazi camp guard charged 29,000 times]. Associated Press.</ref> The [[Foreign Office (Germany)|German foreign ministry]] announced on 2 April 2009 that Demjanjuk would be transferred to Germany the following week<ref>{{cite news|title=Former Nazi camp guard to be deported to Germany. |url=http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/02/nazi.guard/?iref=mpstoryview |work=[[CNN]] |date=April 2, 2009 |accessdate=April 2, 2009}}</ref>, and will face trial beginning November 30, 2009.<ref>{{cite news|title=John Demjanjuk's trial in Germany to start Nov. 30 |url=http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/10/john_demjanjuks_trial_in_germa_1.html |work=[[The Cleveland Plain Dealer]] |date=October 6, 2009 |accessdate=October 6, 2009}}</ref>

Demjanjuk sued Germany on April 30, 2009, to try to block the German government's agreement to accept Demjanjuk from the US.<ref name=Spiegel/> His filing with the German Administrative Court in Berlin claims the procedure by which he is to be moved from the US to Germany is illegal, and asks the Court to suspend the declaration by the German government that allows Demjanjuk to enter the country pursuant to US deportation, until a court determination is made.<ref name=Spiegel/> The German Administrative Court rejected Demjanjuk's claim on May 6; Demjanjuk's German attorney stated that he would appeal the decision.<ref name=Bloomberg>Matussek, Karin (May 6, 2009). [http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aNt5rPIHBQRQ&refer=germany Demjanjuk loses German court bid to block deportation]. Bloomberg.</ref>

===Motion to reopen the case===
====Filing of Motion====
On that same day — April 2, 2009 — Demjanjuk filed a motion in an immigration trial court in Virginia. The motion sought to reopen the matter of the removal order against him; that order of removal had been originally issued by an immigration court in 2005, had been upheld by the BIA on administrative appeal in late 2006,<ref name="BBCNews"/> and was further upheld by the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals;<ref name="X"/> after these two appeals, the U.S. Supreme Court had, as noted above, denied any review.<ref name="Y"/> In connection with the motion to reopen, Demjanjuk also asked the immigration court to stay the removal order, pending the decision on whether or not to reopen the matter.

On April 3, 2009, U.S. Immigration Judge Wayne Iskra temporarily stayed Demjanjuk's deportation,<ref name=Reuters-2009-04-03>{{cite news|title=U.S. judge stays Demjanjuk deportation|url=http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5326L620090403 |work=[[Reuters]] |date=April 3, 2009 |accessdate=April 3, 2009}}</ref> but reversed himself on April 6.<ref>{{cite news|title=U.S. judge allows deportation of accused Nazi guard|url=http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5353SF20090406|work=[[Reuters]] |date=April 6, 2009 |accessdate=April 6, 2009}}</ref> As the Government noted, a motion to reopen, such as Demjanjuk's, could only properly be filed with the Board of Immigration Appeals in Washington D.C., and not an immigration trial court. The issuance of the stay by the immigration trial court was therefore improper, as that court had no jurisdiction over the matter. Accordingly, Demjanjuk re-filed his motion to reopen, and for an attendant stay, with the Board of Appeals.<ref name="X1">[http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/internet/documents/GovernmentResponse.pdf Government 6th Circuit Brief].</ref><ref name="CNN">{{cite news|title=Nazi suspect's deportation appeal rejected|url=
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/10/nazi.suspect.deportation/index.html|work=[[CNN]] |date=10 April 2009 |accessdate=10 April 2009}}</ref>

Demjanjuk's motion to reopen argued that, under the circumstances, his deportation to Germany would constitute torture. His attorney stated that his health had deteriorated seriously in the last four years. Demjanjuk argued that his request was supported by the past actions of the very same Office of Special Investigations where in the Tannenbaum case the DOJ allowed another sick old man to remain in the United States who had admitted to mistreatment of prisoners in a Nazi camp.<ref>McFadden, Robert D. (February 5, 1988). [http://www.nytimes.com/1988/02/05/nyregion/a-jew-who-beat-jews-in-a-nazi-camp-is-stripped-of-his-citizenship.html?sec=&spon=&&scp=6&sq=jacob%20tannenbaum&st=cse A Jew Who Beat Jews in a Nazi Camp Is Stripped of His Citizenship]. ''The New York Times''.</ref> On April 10, the Board of Appeals found that "there is little likelihood of success that [Demjanjuk's] pending motion to re-open the case will be granted," and accordingly denied his motion for a stay pending the dispositon of his motion to reopen. This removed any obstacles to federal agents seizing him at any time for deportation to Germany.<ref name="CNN"/>

The Government has responded to Demjanjuk's "torture" claim as a basis for reopening the deportation order — a case that was decided against Demjanjuk in 2005 and that has been thrice affirmed against him on appeal — by stating that his claim is "patently frivolous" and <blockquote>[is an] ...incredible and unsupported surmise. . . . This is . . . a grotesque debasement of the word "torture," a characterization that makes a mockery of the terrible suffering inflicted on genuine victims of torture at places like the Sobibor extermination center. Ironically, [Demjanjuk]. . . has been confirmed by U.S. courts — including this Court — to have contributed to the mass-asphyxiation of thousands of civilians at a human extermination center [as part of] . . . the largest-scale tortures and murders in history.</blockquote>

====Sixth Circuit Stay====
On April 14, 2009 immigration agents removed Demjanjuk from his home in preparation for deportation.<ref name=AP1>{{cite news|title=Demjanjuk removed from Ohio home on stretcher|url=http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g2v8DW3HMQZ6Y10UI-GQXPnez11QD97IE0R00 |work=[[Associated Press]] |date=April 14, 2009 |accessdate=April 14, 2009}}</ref> The same day, Demjanjuk's son filed a motion in the [[Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit]] asking that the deportation be stayed,<ref name=AP1/> which was subsequently granted.<ref name=CNN1>{{cite news|title=Nazi war crimes suspect granted emergency stay|url=http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/14/us.nazi.suspect/index.html |work=[[CNN]] |date=April 14, 2009|accessdate=April 14, 2009}}</ref> The Government argued that the Court of Appeals has no jurisdiction to review the decision of the Board of Immigration Appeals, which denied the stay.<ref>''Demjanjuk v. Holder,'' [http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/internet/documents/GovernmentResponse.pdf Respondent's Opposition to Petitioner's Petition for Review and Motion for Stay of Removal,] (6th Cir. April 14, 2009).</ref> Demjanjuk later won a last-minute stay of deportation, shortly after US immigration agents carried him from his home in a wheelchair to face trial in Germany. The BIA denied Demjanjuk's motion to reopen his deportation case. The Sixth Circuit, whose stay of the deportation order remained in effect, asked lawyers for both parties to provide it with more information from the government, physicians and Demjanjuk himself. On April 20, the government filed a motion with the Sixth Circuit asking for the stay against deportation to be lifted, arguing that Demjanjuk had sought the stay in order to provide an opportunity for the BIA to rule upon his motion to reopen the deportation order. Since the BIA denied the motion, the government argued, the basis for the Sixth Circuit's stay was no longer valid, and the stay should accordingly be dismissed.<ref name=JP>[http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1239710743699 Demjanjuk is most wanted Nazi criminal]. ''[[The Jerusalem Post]]''. April 21, 2009.</ref> The ''[[The Jerusalem Post|Jerusalem Post]]'' also reported that the Simon Wiesenthal Center had declared Demjanjuk to be the most wanted Nazi war criminal on its list, displacing SS doctor [[Aribert Heim]]. According to a spokesman for the Center, the revised ranking was intended to reflect the importance attributed to the US efforts to deport Demjanjuk to Germany to stand trial.<ref name=JP/>

====Sixth Circuit's Lifting Stay====
On May 1, 2009, the Sixth Circuit lifted the [[Preliminary injunction|stay]] that it had imposed against Demjanjuk's deportation order. The Court stated in its opinion that : <blockquote>Based on the medical information before the court and the government's representations about the conditions under which it will transport the petitioner, which include an aircraft equipped as a medical air ambulance and attendance by medical personnel, the court cannot find that the petitioner's removal to Germany is likely to cause irreparable harm sufficient to warrant a stay of removal.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8029574.stm Demjanjuk loses deportation case]. BBC News. May 1, 2009.</ref></blockquote>

The Court also ruled that it was unlikely that Demjanjuk could demonstrate that he would be "tortured" in Germany and that this claim did not sufficiently support his request for a stay.<ref name=Spiegel>Meyer, Cordula (May 1, 2009). [http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,622357,00.html Demjanjuk Sues German Government]. ''Der Spiegel''.</ref><ref name=Reut>Stern, Andrew (May 1, 2009). [http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN01315073 U.S. court clears way for Demjanjuk removal]. Reuters.</ref><ref name=CA6>[http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/internet/documents/Order_001.pdf Court Order Denying Stay].</ref> Although the stay was lifted, and the government free of legal constraints that prevented it from deporting Demjanjuk, his appeal for the substantive review of the BIA decision on the merits (wherein the BIA effectively upheld the deportation order itself, by refusing to reopen the case on the ground that "torture" in Germany was more likely than not) was still pending before the Court of Appeals.<ref>Case No. 09-3469. Companion case 09-3416, wherein Demjanjuk sought a stay prior to the BIA's denial of his motion to reopen the case on the merits, was dismissed as moot.</ref> However, the Court stated in its opinion denying the stay (in the process of addressing the question of the extent to which Demjanjuk was likely to succeed on the merits of his motion to reopen) that: <blockquote> ...the petitioner has not shown a strong or substantial likelihood of success on the merits of his challenge to... the [BIA's] denial of his motion to reopen. At most, he has offered speculation that German authorities may not adequately attend to his medical needs while he is in ... custody.<ref name=CA6/></blockquote>

====Petition to Supreme Court====
On Tuesday May 5, 2009 Demjanjuk announced through counsel that he was filing a petition with the U.S. Supreme Court, seeking review of the adverse decision of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals that had denied his stay. His counsel expected the filing to be made on Wednesday May 6. The filing characterized the unanimous decision of the three-judge Sixth Circuit panel as "incomprehensible."<ref>[http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hMy-Ec99rk_3jCtsHVd1aJZoKGwgD9809P782 AP Story]. Associated Press.</ref>

On Thursday May 7, 2009, the United States Supreme Court, acting through Justice [[John Paul Stevens]], declined to consider Demjanjuk's case for review, thereby denying Demjanjuk any further stay of deportation. Justice Stevens issued his decision without comment.<ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30626371/ Supreme Court denies alleged Nazi guard's plea]. MSNBC. May 7, 2009.</ref><ref name=Sp>Meyer, Cordula (May 8, 2009). [http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,623665,00.html#ref=nlint Alleged Nazi Guard Demjanjuk Hits Legal Brick Wall]. ''Der Spiegel''.</ref> Demjanjuk's counsel thereafter stated that his client would not seek to have the entire Court consider Justice Stevens' decision and that accordingly all legal avenues in the United States to halt the deportation had been exhausted. The suit filed by Demjanjuk in Germany is not affected by the US decision and as of May 7, that case is still pending on Demjanjuk's appeal from an adverse decision by the Administrative Court in Berlin.<ref name=Sp/>

===="Torture" as basis for reopening the case====
Demjanjuk's motion to reopen is based on the claim that he will be tortured as a result of being deported. Demjanjuk claims that, because he is old and sick, transferring him to Germany will constitute "[[torture (US law definition)|torture]]" within the meaning of the [[United Nations Convention Against Torture|Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment]] (the Convention), and that this circumstance is sufficient to reopen consideration of his case.<ref>This sentence is a summary of the legal arguments on "torture" presented by Demjanjuk in his legal pleadings to date. ''See, e.g''., his [http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/internet/documents/MotionForStay.pdf Motion for Stay] filed with the Sixth Circuit.</ref> His attorney, John Broadley, argued before the BIA that deporting Demjanjuk would constitute torture because of his health problems, including pre-leukemia, kidney problems, spinal problems and "a couple of types of gout."<ref name=AP1/><ref name=CNN1/> To summarize the foregoing, his essential contention in his legal pleadings and public statements<ref>These public statements may be found in the news article citations herein.</ref> is, that it would be very hard on him, and perhaps life-threatening, to be taken away from his home in his present condition. He claims that this circumstance constitutes "torture."

While Demjanjuk was removed from his house in a wheelchair and appeared to be "slack-jawed and unmoving," on April 23, 2009, federal prosecutors submitted surveillance video evidence taken after the removal of Demjanjuk; the footage showed Demjanjuk walking with no assistance to a car in a parking lot while "alert and engaged in conversation."<ref name="cnn doctor">Frieden, Terry (April 23, 2009). [http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/23/us.nazi.doctor.report/ U.S. says videos disprove Demjanjuk's claim of poor health]. [[CNN]].</ref> They also provided the Court of Appeals with a medical report that supported their claim that Demjanjuk is medically fit to be moved to Germany; a flight surgeon who examined Demjanjuk while in government custody for alleged back pain later noticed that Demjanjuk "moved his back with apparent ease."<ref name="cnn doctor"/> The government lawyers stated that even if the court lifts the stay, they would defer deportation until at least May 1, to allow Demjanjuk time to file an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.<ref name="cnn doctor"/><ref>[http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2009/04/24/john-demjanjuk-video-is-extradition-back-on/is-former-nazi-camp-guard-really-too-ill-to-face-court.html The former Nazi camp guard supposedly 'too ill' to face court]. ''[[Bild]]''. April 24, 2009.</ref> On April 23, 2009, a group of students from The Hebrew Academy of the Five Towns and Rockaway petitioned the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to uphold the deportation order.<ref>[http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/33485/Hundreds+of+High+School+Students+Petition+Judge+to+Deport+Demjanjuk.htm Hundreds of High School Students Petition Judge to Deport Demjanjuk]. Yeshiva World News. April 27, 2009.</ref>

==== Deportation to Germany ====

Demjanjuk was deported to Germany, leaving [[Cleveland]] (USA) on 11 May 2009 to arrive in [[Munich]] (Germany) on May 12. Upon his arrival, he was arrested in Munich's [[Stadelheim prison]].<ref>Fischer, Sebastian; Neumann, Conny; Meyer, Cordula (May 12, 2009). [http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/zeitgeschichte/0,1518,624265,00.html Krankenwagen bringt Demjanjuk ins Untersuchungsgefängnis]. ''Der Spiegel''.</ref>

====Demjanjuk deemed fit to stand trial====
On July 3, 2009, prosecutors deemed Demjanjuk fit to stand trial. On July 13, 2009, prosecutors charged him with 27,900 counts of accessory to murder.<ref>[http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4475603,00.html Germany files charges against alleged Nazi guard Demjanjuk]. [[Deutsche Welle]]. July 13, 2009.</ref> Doctors have restricted the time Demjanjuk can be tried in court each day to two sessions of 90 minutes each, said Munich State Prosecutor Anton Winkler. Demnjanjuk's attorney said that due to the complexity of the evidence, the mandated short sessions could cause the trial to last three to five years.<ref name="ap demjanjuk att'y">[http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009611597_apeugermanydemjanjuk.html Demjanjuk lawyer calls for case to be closed]. [[Associated Press]]. August 6, 2009.</ref> Due to this and what he called Demjanjuk's ill health, Demjanjuk's attorney called for the case to be closed.<ref name="ap demjanjuk att'y"/>

==Displaced person claim==
On April 21, 2009, ''[[The Australian]]'' reported that Demjanjuk registered in 1948 as a displaced person. This category was reserved mainly for former [[concentration camp]] prisoners and forced laborers. The [[International Tracing Service]], a German agency that maintains data on Nazi victims, provided a copy of Demjanjuk's March 3, 1948, application to ''The Australian''.

In that application, Demjanjuk claimed to be a refugee, sought assistance, and asked for transfer to [[Argentina]]. His application stated that he worked as a driver at the [[Sobibor concentration camp]]; it did not mention any work as a guard at that camp. When interviewed in connection with the story, [[historian]] Hans-Jürgen Bömelburg ([[University of Giessen]]) stated that war criminals sometimes tried to escape justice after 1945 by presenting themselves victims of Nazi persecution, rather than as perpetrators.<ref>[http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25368834-2703,00.html Demjanjuk posed as a Nazi camp victim]. ''[[The Australian]]''. April 22, 2009.</ref>

According to [[Gitta Sereny]]'s ''The German Trauma'' (2000, ISBN 978-0-140-29263-3) there was a strong reason why Demjanjuk could have put down [[Sobibor extermination camp]] as the place where he worked from 1937 to 1943 as a farmhand (according to Sereny) in the application he made on the March 3, 1948. Applicants for [[displaced person]] status had to fill in a form that required them to say where they had been for the previous twelve years. Unless they could show that they had been living outside the [[Soviet Union]] on September 1, 1939, they could not, under the terms of the [[Yalta agreement]], be accepted as displaced persons and would be returned to the Soviet Union. Officials of the [[International Refugee Organisation]], which operated the [[Landshut]] office, therefore encouraged applicants to select places outside the Soviet Union. Sobibor was such a place. Sereny further relates that at Demjanjuk's trial in [[Israel]] on the [[Treblinka]] charges, Judge Dov Levin had asked Demjanjuk, "Why did you put Sobibor?" Demjanjuk had replied that he had no idea what to put on the form and that another applicant had had an atlas and told him to put down Sobibor as there had been many Ukrainians there.

Evidence that Demjanjuk might have been at Sobibor rather than Treblinka contributed to his successful appeal against his conviction in Israel on the Treblinka charges. He was not prosecuted in Israel on any charges relating to Sobibor as, ''inter alia'', his extradition from the USA had been obtained on the basis of the Treblinka charges.

==Trial in Germany==
On 30 November 2009 Demjanjuk's trial, expected to last for several months, began in [[Munich]].<ref>{{Citation |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8386576.stm |title=John Demjanjuk war crimes trial begins in Munich |work=BBC News |date=30 November 2009 }}</ref> Demjanjuk arrived in the courtroom in a wheelchair pushed by a German police officer.<ref>{{Citation |url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/world/europe/01trial.html |title=Man Tied to Death Camp Goes on Trial in Germany |newspaper=New York Times |date=November 30, 2009 |last=Kulish |first=Nicholas }}</ref>

35 joint plaintiffs have been admitted to file in the case, 4 survivors of the Sobibor concentration camp and 26 relatives of victims. The [[Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland]] appreciated Demjanjuk's extradiction and the trial, stressing its symbolic significance. "All NS criminals still living shall know that there won't be mercy for them, regardless of their age. They have to be held accountable for their inhuman deeds."<ref>[http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/de/article/2411.html Statement of the ZDJ], May 12, 2009 (german)</ref>

[[Christiaan F. Rüter]], Professor of Law and expert on NS trials in Germany, who researched the subject at the [[University of Amsterdam]] for 40 years, expressed reservations against the commencement of proceedings. He stated that to him "it is a complete mystery, how anyone who knows the German jurisdiction up to now, would be able to assume that Demjanjuk could be sentenced based on the given evidence."<ref>[http://www.daserste.de/doku/beitrag_dyn~uid,ub4hqwqmheayq31h~cm.asp ''Der Fall Demjanjuk'']. [[ARD_(broadcaster)|ARD]] documentation on the case of John Demjanjuk. November 30, 2009 (german)</ref>

==See also==
*[[Algimantas Dailidė]]
*[[Fydor Fedorenko]]
*[[Bohdan Koziy]]
*[[Karl Linnas]]
*[[Erich Lachmann]]
*[[Arthur Rudolph]]

==References and footnotes==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==
* [http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/demjanjuk/ Demjanjuk] - Compilation of ''[[The Plain Dealer (newspaper)|The Plain Dealer]]'' articles at Cleveland.com

{{DEFAULTSORT:Demjanjuk, John}}
[[Category:1920 births]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:Stateless persons]]
[[Category:Ukrainian Americans]]
[[Category:Loss of United States citizenship by prior Nazi affiliation]]
[[Category:People deported from the United States]]
[[Category:Overturned convictions]]
[[Category:Fugitives wanted by Germany]]
[[Category:People from Kiev Oblast]]
[[Category:Prisoners sentenced to death by Israel]]
[[Category:Ukrainian Nazi collaborators]]
[[Category:Holocaust perpetrators]]
[[Category:Soviet prisoners of war]]

[[cs:John Demjanjuk]]
[[da:John Demjanjuk]]
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[[es:John Demjanjuk]]
[[eo:Ivan Demjanjuk]]
[[fa:جان دمیانیوک]]
[[fr:John Demjanjuk]]
[[it:John Demjanjuk]]
[[he:ג'ון דמיאניוק]]
[[la:Ioannes Demjanjuk]]
[[nl:John Demjanjuk]]
[[ja:ジョン・デミャニュク]]
[[no:John Demjanjuk]]
[[pl:Iwan Demianiuk]]
[[ru:Демьянюк, Иван Николаевич]]
[[fi:John Demjanjuk]]
[[sv:John Demjanjuk]]
[[uk:Дем'янюк Іван Миколайович]]

John Demjanjuk

2009-12-04T13:10:46Z

Papphase: /* Trial in Germany */ + german statements regarding the filing of action

{{Infobox Person
| name = John Demjanjuk
| image = John Demjanjuk 3.jpg
| image_size = 235px
| caption = Demjanjuk hearing his death sentence on April 25, 1988 in [[Jerusalem]], [[Israel]]
| birth_date = {{birth date and age|mf=yes|1920|4|3}}
| birth_place = Dubovi Makharyntsi,<ref name=oblasts/> [[Ukraine]]
| death_date =
| death_place =
| occupation = Retired auto worker, Nazi prison guard
}}
{{The Holocaust}}
'''John Demjanjuk''' (born '''Ivan Mykolayovych Demyanyuk'''; {{lang-ua|Іван Миколайович Дем'янюк}}; April 3, 1920) is a retired auto worker and former<ref>[http://www.fox40.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-eu-germany-demjanjuk-timeline,0,7839587.story Chronology of the Demjanjuk case]. Fox 40. July 13, 2009.</ref> [[United States citizen]], who gained notoriety after being accused of [[war crime]]s.

Born in Ukraine during the [[Polish–Soviet War]] (when territories in Ukraine quickly changed hands), Demjanjuk migrated to the [[United States]] in 1951. He was [[Deportation|deported]] to [[Israel]] in 1986 and later sentenced to death there in 1988 for war crimes, based on his identification by [[Israel]]i [[Holocaust]] survivors as "Ivan the Terrible," a notorious [[Schutzstaffel|SS]] guard at the [[Treblinka extermination camp|Treblinka]] and [[Sobibor extermination camp|Sobibor]] [[extermination camp]]s during the period 1942–1943 who committed murder and acts of extraordinarily savage violence against camp prisoners. His conviction for crimes against humanity was later overturned by the [[Israeli Supreme Court]] in 1993 due to a finding of reasonable doubt based on evidence suggesting that Demjanjuk was not "Ivan the Terrible" and had, in fact, been a guard at camps besides the one at Treblinka.<ref>Hedges, Chris (August 12, 1993). [http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/12/world/israel-recommends-that-demjanjuk-be-released.html?scp=3&sq=Demjanjuk%20&st=cse Israel Recommends that Demjanjuk Be Released]. ''The New York Times''.</ref> After the trial, he was returned to [[Cleveland]], [[Ohio]]. He eventually moved to nearby [[Seven Hills, Ohio|Seven Hills]], [[Ohio]].

Demjanjuk was put on trial again in 2001 on charges that he had served as a guard at the [[Sobibor extermination camp|Sobibór]] and [[Majdanek]] camps in occupied [[Poland]] and at the [[Flossenbürg concentration camp|Flossenbürg]] camp in Germany. His [[deportation]] was again ordered in 2005, but he remained in the United States as no country would agree to accept him. On April 2, 2009, it was announced that Demjanjuk would be deported to [[Germany]] and would face trial there on charges of accessory to 29,000 counts of murder. On April 3, 2009, a judge ordered that Demjanjuk be given a temporary stay, pending a judicial decision on his newly filed (April 2) motion to reopen his deportation order, on the ground that deporting him would amount to torture under the applicable international convention.<ref name=Reuters-2009-04-03/> The stay was overturned on April 6.<ref>[http://twitter.com/BreakingNews/statuses/1463186040 AP Breaking News]. [[Twitter]].</ref>

On April 14, 2009, immigration agents began Demjanjuk's deportation, removing him from his home in a wheelchair. He was scheduled to fly to Munich from [[Burke Lakefront Airport]] in Cleveland,<ref name=AP1/> but the legal order was again reversed and another stay granted by the court.<ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30210535/ Alleged Nazi guard released from custody]. [[MSNBC]]. April 14, 2009.</ref> On May 7, 2009, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected Demjanjuk's appeal and on May 8, 2009, he was ordered to surrender to U.S. Immigration agents for deportation to Germany.<ref>Winter, Michael (May 8, 2009). [http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/05/demjanjuk-ordered-to-surrender-for-deportation.html Demjanjuk ordered to surrender for deportation]. ''[[USA Today]]''.</ref> On May 11, Demjanjuk left his Cleveland home by [[ambulance]], and was taken to the airport, where he was deported by plane to Germany. He arrived there the next morning on May 12.<ref> [http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/05/11/Demjanjuk-leaves-home-in-ambulance/UPI-58871242072603/ Demjanjuk en route to Germany]. United Press International. May 11, 2009.</ref><ref>Kulish, Nicholas (May 12, 2009). [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/world/europe/13german.html?_r=1&hp Accused Nazi Arrives in Munich]. ''[[The New York Times]]''.</ref> On July 13, 2009, Demjanjuk was formally charged with 27,900 counts of acting as an accessory to murder, one for each person who died at Sobibor during the time he is accused of serving as a guard at the Nazi death camp. On 30 November 2009 Demjanjuk's trial, expected to last for several months, began in [[Munich]] <ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8386576.stm John Demjanjuk war crimes trial begins in Munich at bbc.co.uk]</ref>.

==Background to alleged Holocaust involvement==
{{refimprove|date=May 2009}}
Demjanjuk was born in Dubovi Makharyntsi,<ref name=oblasts>formerly [[Kiev Governorate]], presently [[Koziatyn]] district, [[Vinnytsia Oblast]]</ref> [[Ukraine]]. In 1942, Demjanjuk, who was a member of the [[Red Army]], became a German [[prisoner of war]] and was moved to a German camp. He survived the ordeal and was sent to the [[Trawniki concentration camp]], later serving in Majdanek, Sobibor and Flossenbürg Nazi camps. In early 1945, Demjanjuk joined the [[Andrey Vlasov|Vlasov]] Army, which was closely aligned with Nazi Germany against the Soviets.<ref name=rosen>Rosenbach, Marcel (November 18, 2008). [http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,591257,00.html Sixty Years Later, Alleged Nazi Guard May Stand Trial]. ''[[Der Spiegel]].''</ref>

Demjanjuk, his wife and their child arrived in New York aboard the ''[[USS General W. G. Haan]]'' on February 9, 1952.<ref name=rosen/> On November 14, 1958, Demjanjuk became a [[naturalized citizen]] of the [[United States]]. He and his wife, whom he met in a displaced persons camp, moved to [[Indiana]] with their daughter (they later had two more children) and then to [[Cleveland, Ohio]] suburb [[Seven Hills, Ohio|Seven Hills]], where Demjanjuk became a diesel engine mechanic for the nearby Ford auto plant.

In August 1977, the Justice Department submitted a request to the [[United States District Court for the Northern District of Ohio]] that Demjanjuk's citizenship be revoked on the basis that he had allegedly concealed his involvement with Nazi death camps on his immigration application in 1951. The request followed a lengthy investigation by the [[Immigration and Naturalization Service|INS]] after Demjanjuk was identified by Holocaust survivors on a photo spread used in the investigation of [[Feodor Fedorenko]], a [[Treblinka]] Concentration Camp guard. Fedorenko was later extradited to Ukraine on his admission that he was such a guard and that he lied on his US immigration applications.

On June 23, 1981, [[United States district court|District Court]] Judge [[Frank J. Battisti]] ruled that Demjanjuk had lied on his application, that he had served as an SS guard at Treblinka and for a brief period at [[Sobibor extermination camp|Sobibór]], and that he had undergone training at the [[Trawniki concentration camp#History of Trawniki|Trawniki]] SS training camp. Demjanjuk's attorneys appealed this ruling.

==Trial in Israel==
In October 1983, Israel issued an [[extradition]] request for Demjanjuk to stand trial on Israeli soil under the Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (Punishment) Law of 1950. Demjanjuk was deported to Israel on February 28, 1986.<ref name=BBC>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/29/newsid_4561000/4561917.stm Israeli court sets Demjanjuk free]. BBC News. July 29, 1993.</ref> He was put on trial between November 26, 1986, and April 18, 1988, before a special tribunal comprising Supreme Court Judge Dov Levin, Jerusalem District Court Judges Zvi Tal, and [[Dalia Dorner]].<ref>[http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Anti-Semitism%20and%20the%20Holocaust/Documents%20and%20communiques/THE%20DEMJANJUK%20CASE-%20FACTUAL%20AND%20LEGAL%20DETAILS%20-%2028 The Demjanjuk case]. Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. July 28, 1993.</ref>

The prosecution team consisting of Yonah Blatman, the State Attorney, Michael Shaked of the Jerusalem District Attorney's Office, Dennis Goldman and Eli Gabay of the International Section of the State Attorney's Office, Michael Horowitz and Gabi Finder and others, claimed during the trial that Demjanjuk had been recruited into the Soviet army in 1940, and that he had fought until he was captured by German troops in the Eastern [[Crimea]] in May 1942.

Demjanjuk was then, according to the prosecutors, brought to a German [[prisoner of war]] camp in [[Chelmno]] in July 1942. Prosecutors claimed that Demjanjuk volunteered to collaborate with the Germans and was sent to the camp at Trawniki, where he was trained to guard prisoners and was given a firearm, a uniform, and an ID card with his photograph. The principal allegation was that Demjanjuk was "Ivan Grozny" or "Ivan the Terrible" of Treblinka, who operated the diesel engines sending gas to the death chamber.<ref>The case of John Demjanjuk, Sr. — Hon. James A. Traficant, Jr. (Extension of Remarks — March 1, 1991), James A. Traficant, Jr., in the House of Representatives, February 28, 1991 (p. E735).</ref> Prosecutors based part of these allegations on an ID card, but defense attorneys countered that the card was forged by Soviet authorities to discredit Demjanjuk. The card had Demjanjuk's photograph, which he identified as his picture at the time, as well as signatures of various Nazi officers who were deposed and confirmed the authenticity of their signatures. The paper and ink on the card were tested by internationally renowned experts who confirmed that the card was authentic. The original of the card was presented in court in Israel as supplied by the Soviets.<ref name=Nizkor_trial>[http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/d/demjanjuk-john/israeli-data/demjanjuk-s1-2.html The Demjanjuk Case: The Trial]. [[Nizkor Project]].</ref> Demjanjuk admitted that the scar under his armpit was an SS tattoo, which he removed after the war. During the trial, Demjanjuk was again identified on the photo spread by Otto Horn, a former Nazi guard at Treblinka.<ref name=Nizkor_trial/>

Demjanjuk testified during the trial that he was imprisoned in a camp in [[Chelmno]] until 1944, when he was transferred to another camp in [[Austria]], where he remained until he joined an anti-Soviet Russian military unit funded by the German government until the surrender of Germany to the [[Allies]] in 1945.

On April 18, 1988, the court found Demjanjuk guilty of all charges. One week later it sentenced him to death by [[hanging]].<ref name="Sentence">''Israel 50'', 1997 edition, ISBN 965-474-005-2.</ref> Demjanjuk was placed in [[solitary confinement]] during the appeals process.<ref name= "Acquittal">Hedges, Chris (July 30, 1993). [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE5D8103AF933A05754C0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all Acquittal in Jerusalem; Israel Court Sets Demjanjuk Free, But He Is Now Without a Country]. ''The New York Times''.</ref>

On July 29, 1993, five Israeli Supreme Court judges overturned the guilty verdict on appeal. Their ruling was based on the written statements of former guards at Treblinka that identified Ivan the Terrible as "Ivan Marchenko."<ref name= "Acquittal"/> US officials had originally been aware, without informing Demjanjuk's attorneys, of the testimony of two of these German guards.<ref name="time 1993">Beyer, Lisa; Johnson, Julie; Myers, Ken (August 2, 1993). [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978969,00.html Ivan the Not-So-Terrible]. ''[[Time (magazine)|Time]]''.</ref> However the Israeli justices mentioned how Demjanjuk had incorrectly listed his mother's maiden name as "Marchenko" in his 1951 application for U.S. visa.<ref name= "Acquittal"/> Demjanjuk says he just wrote a common Ukrainian [[surname]] after he forgot his mother's real name.<ref name="time 1993"/> The former guards' statements were obtained after World War II by the Soviets, who prosecuted Ukrainians who assisted the Nazis as auxiliary forces during the War. Most of the guards were executed after the war by the Soviets, and their written statements were not obtained by Israeli authorities until 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed.<ref name="time 1993"/>

The Israeli Supreme Court's 405-page ruling read: "The main issue of the indictment sheet filed against the appellant was his identification as Ivan the Terrible, an operator of the gas chambers in the extermination camp at Treblinka ... By virtue of this gnawing [new evidence indicating mistaken identity] ... we restrained ourselves from convicting the appellant of the horrors of Treblinka. Ivan Demjanjuk has been acquitted by us, because of doubt, of the terrible charges attributed to Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka. This was the proper course for judges who cannot examine the heart and mind, but have only what their eyes see and read." They also added: "The facts proved the appellant's participation in the extermination process. The matter is closed — but not complete, the complete truth is not the prerogative of the human judge."<ref name= "Acquittal"/>

The court judgment also addressed evidence against Demjanjuk that was not included in his indictment. The judges agreed that Demjanjuk most likely served as a Nazi ''Wachmann'' (guard) in the Trawniki unit<ref name= "Acquittal"/> and had been posted at [[Sobibor extermination camp]] and two other camps. Evidence to assist this claim included a certificate from Trawniki bearing Demjanjuk's picture and his exact personal information<ref name= "Acquittal" /> — allegedly found in the Soviet archives — in addition to German documents that mentioned Wachmann Demjanjuk and mentioned his date and place of birth. Statements of another Wachmann (Denilchenko), both in 1949 and again in 1979, identified Demjanjuk as the Wachmann who served with him at [[Sobibor extermination camp]]. Demjanjuk's Trawniki certificate also implies that he served at Sobibor, as do the German orders of March 1943 posting the Trawniki unit to this area.<ref name= "Acquittal" />

After Demjanjuk's acquittal, the Israeli Attorney General decided to release him rather than to pursue charges of committing crimes at Sobibor. Ten petitions against the decision were made to the Supreme Court. On August 18, 1993, the court rejected the petitions on the grounds that (1) the principle of [[double jeopardy]] would be infringed, (2) that new charges would be unreasonable given the seriousness of those of which he had been acquitted, (3) that conviction on the new charges would be unlikely, and (4) that Demjanjuk was extradited from the United States specifically to stand trial for offenses attributed to Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka, and not for other alternative charges.<ref> [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Anti-Semitism%20and%20the%20Holocaust/Documents%20and%20communiques/DECISION%20OF%20ISRAEL%20SUPREME%20COURT%20ON%20PETITION%20CONCE Decision of Israel Supreme Court on petition concerning John (Ivan) Demjanjuk]. Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. August 18, 1993.</ref>

Demjanjuk was released to return to the United States. In 1993, the [[United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit|Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals]] ruled that Demjanjuk was a victim of [[fraud on the court]], as [[United States federal government]] trial lawyers with the Office of Special Investigations had recklessly failed to disclose [[evidence (law)|evidence]], and his US citizenship was restored. In a report submitted to the Sixth Circuit prior to the Israeli acquittal, federal judge [[Thomas Anderton Wiseman Jr.|Thomas Wiseman, Jr.]] concluded that American federal officials had erred in asserting that Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible, but that evidence instead pointed to Demjanjuk being a lesser SS agent.<ref name="time 1993"/>

==Charges and Deportation==
===Restoration and revocation of U.S. citizenship===
On February 20, 1998, [[Federal District Court]] [[Judge]] [[Paul Matia]] ruled that Demjanjuk's citizenship could be restored.

On May 19, 1999, the [[United States Department of Justice|Justice Department]] filed a new civil complaint against Demjanjuk. No mention was made in the new complaint of the previous allegations that Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible. Instead, the complaint alleged that Demjanjuk served as a guard at the [[Sobibor extermination camp|Sobibór]] and [[Majdanek]] camps in [[Poland]] under German occupation and at the [[Flossenbürg concentration camp|Flossenburg]] camp in Germany. It additionally accused Demjanjuk of being a member of an SS-run unit that took part in capturing nearly two million Jews in the [[General Government|General Government of Poland]].

Demjanjuk was put on trial again in 2001, and in February 2002, Matia ruled that Demjanjuk had not produced any credible evidence of his whereabouts during the war and that the Justice Department had proved its case against him.

On April 30, 2004, a three-judge panel of the [[6th US Circuit Court of Appeals]] ruled that Demjanjuk could be again stripped of his US citizenship because the Justice Department had presented "clear, unequivocal, and convincing evidence" of Demjanjuk's service in Nazi death camps.<ref>{{Cite court|litigants=USA v. Demjanjuk|opinion=No. 02-3529|court=6th Cir.|date=April 30, 2004|url=http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/04a0125p-06.pdf}}</ref> Demjanjuk vowed to appeal the ruling.

===New deportation order===
On December 28, 2005, an [[U.S. Immigration Judge|immigration judge]] ordered Demjanjuk deported to Germany, Poland, or Ukraine. In an attempt to avoid deportation, Demjanjuk sought protection under the United Nations Convention against Torture, claiming that he would be prosecuted and tortured if he were deported to Ukraine. Chief U.S. Immigration Judge Michael Creppy ruled that there is no evidence to substantiate Demjanjuk's claim that he would be mistreated if sent to Ukraine.<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/29/national/29demjanjuk.html?_r=1 Judge Orders Accused Camp Guard Deported], [[N.Y. Times]] (December 29, 2005)</ref>

On December 22, 2006, the [[Board of Immigration Appeals]] (the Board or BIA) upheld the deportation order.<ref name="BBCNews">[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6202319.stm US 'Nazi guard' faces deportation]. BBC News. December 22, 2006.</ref> On January 30, 2008, the [[Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit]] denied Demjanjuk's request for review.<ref name="X">Demjanjuk did not, on his appeal, contest the Board's decision on its merits. His sole ground for appeal was that the Immigration Judge who had heard his case — Judge Creppy — was not an "immigration judge" within the meaning of the law and was therefore without jurisdiction to decide the case, thereby nullifying the proceeding. The Sixth Circuit found his argument to be without merit. {{Cite court|litigants=Demjanjuk v. Mukasey|opinion=No. 07-3022|court=6th Cir.|date=January 30, 2008|url=http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/circs/6th/073022p.pdf}}</ref> On May 19, 2008, the [[Supreme Court of the United States|U. S. Supreme Court]] denied Demjanjuk's petition for [[certiorari]], declining to hear his case against the deportation order.<ref name="Y">[http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1952867920080519 Accused Nazi guard Demjanjuk loses court appeal] Reuters, May 19, 2008.</ref><ref>[http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/051908.ZOR.html ''Demjanjuk v. Mukasey''], no. 07-10487, U.S. Supreme Court, May 19, 2008 (certiorari denied).</ref> The Supreme Court's denial of review meant that the order of removal was final; no other appeal was possible.

===Deportation proceedings and actions===
One month after the U.S. Supreme Court's refusal to hear Demjanjuk's case, on June 19, 2008 Germany announced it would seek the extradition of Demjanjuk to Germany. The file on Demjanjuk was compiled by the special German office investigating Nazi crimes. Kurt Schrimm, who heads the office, said that investigators "have managed to obtain hundred of documents and have also found a number of witnesses who spoke out against Demjanjuk". "For the first time we have even found lists of names of the people who Demjanjuk personally led into the gas chambers. We have no doubt that he is responsible for the death of over 29,000 Jews" at the Nazis' Sobibor death camp, he said. Kurt Schrimm said that Demjanjuk could be brought to Germany by the end of 2008; however, this did not occur<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7721631.stm Germans seek 'Nazi guard' charges]. BBC News. November 11, 2008.</ref><ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Germany-Nazi-Guard.html Germany seeks extradition of Nazi guard from US]. ''The New York Times''. June 19, 2008.</ref>

On November 10, 2008, German federal prosecutor Kurt Schrimm directed prosecutors to file in Munich for extradition, since Demjanjuk once lived there. On December 9, 2008, a German federal court declared that Demjanjuk could be tried for his alleged role in the Holocaust.<ref>{{cite news |first= |last= |authorlink= |coauthors= |title=Court: 'Ivan the Terrible' can be tried in Germany |url=http://www.thelocal.de/national/20081211-16079.html |work=[[Agence France-Presse]] |publisher=TheLocal.de |date=December 11, 2008 |accessdate=December 13, 2008 }}</ref> Some three months later, on March 11, 2009, Demjanjuk was charged with more than 29,000 counts of accessory to murder of Jewish prisoners at the [[Sobibor extermination camp]].<ref>Rising, David (March 11, 2009). [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090311/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_demjanjuk Former Nazi camp guard charged 29,000 times]. Associated Press.</ref> The [[Foreign Office (Germany)|German foreign ministry]] announced on 2 April 2009 that Demjanjuk would be transferred to Germany the following week<ref>{{cite news|title=Former Nazi camp guard to be deported to Germany. |url=http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/02/nazi.guard/?iref=mpstoryview |work=[[CNN]] |date=April 2, 2009 |accessdate=April 2, 2009}}</ref>, and will face trial beginning November 30, 2009.<ref>{{cite news|title=John Demjanjuk's trial in Germany to start Nov. 30 |url=http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/10/john_demjanjuks_trial_in_germa_1.html |work=[[The Cleveland Plain Dealer]] |date=October 6, 2009 |accessdate=October 6, 2009}}</ref>

Demjanjuk sued Germany on April 30, 2009, to try to block the German government's agreement to accept Demjanjuk from the US.<ref name=Spiegel/> His filing with the German Administrative Court in Berlin claims the procedure by which he is to be moved from the US to Germany is illegal, and asks the Court to suspend the declaration by the German government that allows Demjanjuk to enter the country pursuant to US deportation, until a court determination is made.<ref name=Spiegel/> The German Administrative Court rejected Demjanjuk's claim on May 6; Demjanjuk's German attorney stated that he would appeal the decision.<ref name=Bloomberg>Matussek, Karin (May 6, 2009). [http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aNt5rPIHBQRQ&refer=germany Demjanjuk loses German court bid to block deportation]. Bloomberg.</ref>

===Motion to reopen the case===
====Filing of Motion====
On that same day — April 2, 2009 — Demjanjuk filed a motion in an immigration trial court in Virginia. The motion sought to reopen the matter of the removal order against him; that order of removal had been originally issued by an immigration court in 2005, had been upheld by the BIA on administrative appeal in late 2006,<ref name="BBCNews"/> and was further upheld by the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals;<ref name="X"/> after these two appeals, the U.S. Supreme Court had, as noted above, denied any review.<ref name="Y"/> In connection with the motion to reopen, Demjanjuk also asked the immigration court to stay the removal order, pending the decision on whether or not to reopen the matter.

On April 3, 2009, U.S. Immigration Judge Wayne Iskra temporarily stayed Demjanjuk's deportation,<ref name=Reuters-2009-04-03>{{cite news|title=U.S. judge stays Demjanjuk deportation|url=http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5326L620090403 |work=[[Reuters]] |date=April 3, 2009 |accessdate=April 3, 2009}}</ref> but reversed himself on April 6.<ref>{{cite news|title=U.S. judge allows deportation of accused Nazi guard|url=http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5353SF20090406|work=[[Reuters]] |date=April 6, 2009 |accessdate=April 6, 2009}}</ref> As the Government noted, a motion to reopen, such as Demjanjuk's, could only properly be filed with the Board of Immigration Appeals in Washington D.C., and not an immigration trial court. The issuance of the stay by the immigration trial court was therefore improper, as that court had no jurisdiction over the matter. Accordingly, Demjanjuk re-filed his motion to reopen, and for an attendant stay, with the Board of Appeals.<ref name="X1">[http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/internet/documents/GovernmentResponse.pdf Government 6th Circuit Brief].</ref><ref name="CNN">{{cite news|title=Nazi suspect's deportation appeal rejected|url=
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/10/nazi.suspect.deportation/index.html|work=[[CNN]] |date=10 April 2009 |accessdate=10 April 2009}}</ref>

Demjanjuk's motion to reopen argued that, under the circumstances, his deportation to Germany would constitute torture. His attorney stated that his health had deteriorated seriously in the last four years. Demjanjuk argued that his request was supported by the past actions of the very same Office of Special Investigations where in the Tannenbaum case the DOJ allowed another sick old man to remain in the United States who had admitted to mistreatment of prisoners in a Nazi camp.<ref>McFadden, Robert D. (February 5, 1988). [http://www.nytimes.com/1988/02/05/nyregion/a-jew-who-beat-jews-in-a-nazi-camp-is-stripped-of-his-citizenship.html?sec=&spon=&&scp=6&sq=jacob%20tannenbaum&st=cse A Jew Who Beat Jews in a Nazi Camp Is Stripped of His Citizenship]. ''The New York Times''.</ref> On April 10, the Board of Appeals found that "there is little likelihood of success that [Demjanjuk's] pending motion to re-open the case will be granted," and accordingly denied his motion for a stay pending the dispositon of his motion to reopen. This removed any obstacles to federal agents seizing him at any time for deportation to Germany.<ref name="CNN"/>

The Government has responded to Demjanjuk's "torture" claim as a basis for reopening the deportation order — a case that was decided against Demjanjuk in 2005 and that has been thrice affirmed against him on appeal — by stating that his claim is "patently frivolous" and <blockquote>[is an] ...incredible and unsupported surmise. . . . This is . . . a grotesque debasement of the word "torture," a characterization that makes a mockery of the terrible suffering inflicted on genuine victims of torture at places like the Sobibor extermination center. Ironically, [Demjanjuk]. . . has been confirmed by U.S. courts — including this Court — to have contributed to the mass-asphyxiation of thousands of civilians at a human extermination center [as part of] . . . the largest-scale tortures and murders in history.</blockquote>

====Sixth Circuit Stay====
On April 14, 2009 immigration agents removed Demjanjuk from his home in preparation for deportation.<ref name=AP1>{{cite news|title=Demjanjuk removed from Ohio home on stretcher|url=http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g2v8DW3HMQZ6Y10UI-GQXPnez11QD97IE0R00 |work=[[Associated Press]] |date=April 14, 2009 |accessdate=April 14, 2009}}</ref> The same day, Demjanjuk's son filed a motion in the [[Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit]] asking that the deportation be stayed,<ref name=AP1/> which was subsequently granted.<ref name=CNN1>{{cite news|title=Nazi war crimes suspect granted emergency stay|url=http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/14/us.nazi.suspect/index.html |work=[[CNN]] |date=April 14, 2009|accessdate=April 14, 2009}}</ref> The Government argued that the Court of Appeals has no jurisdiction to review the decision of the Board of Immigration Appeals, which denied the stay.<ref>''Demjanjuk v. Holder,'' [http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/internet/documents/GovernmentResponse.pdf Respondent's Opposition to Petitioner's Petition for Review and Motion for Stay of Removal,] (6th Cir. April 14, 2009).</ref> Demjanjuk later won a last-minute stay of deportation, shortly after US immigration agents carried him from his home in a wheelchair to face trial in Germany. The BIA denied Demjanjuk's motion to reopen his deportation case. The Sixth Circuit, whose stay of the deportation order remained in effect, asked lawyers for both parties to provide it with more information from the government, physicians and Demjanjuk himself. On April 20, the government filed a motion with the Sixth Circuit asking for the stay against deportation to be lifted, arguing that Demjanjuk had sought the stay in order to provide an opportunity for the BIA to rule upon his motion to reopen the deportation order. Since the BIA denied the motion, the government argued, the basis for the Sixth Circuit's stay was no longer valid, and the stay should accordingly be dismissed.<ref name=JP>[http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1239710743699 Demjanjuk is most wanted Nazi criminal]. ''[[The Jerusalem Post]]''. April 21, 2009.</ref> The ''[[The Jerusalem Post|Jerusalem Post]]'' also reported that the Simon Wiesenthal Center had declared Demjanjuk to be the most wanted Nazi war criminal on its list, displacing SS doctor [[Aribert Heim]]. According to a spokesman for the Center, the revised ranking was intended to reflect the importance attributed to the US efforts to deport Demjanjuk to Germany to stand trial.<ref name=JP/>

====Sixth Circuit's Lifting Stay====
On May 1, 2009, the Sixth Circuit lifted the [[Preliminary injunction|stay]] that it had imposed against Demjanjuk's deportation order. The Court stated in its opinion that : <blockquote>Based on the medical information before the court and the government's representations about the conditions under which it will transport the petitioner, which include an aircraft equipped as a medical air ambulance and attendance by medical personnel, the court cannot find that the petitioner's removal to Germany is likely to cause irreparable harm sufficient to warrant a stay of removal.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8029574.stm Demjanjuk loses deportation case]. BBC News. May 1, 2009.</ref></blockquote>

The Court also ruled that it was unlikely that Demjanjuk could demonstrate that he would be "tortured" in Germany and that this claim did not sufficiently support his request for a stay.<ref name=Spiegel>Meyer, Cordula (May 1, 2009). [http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,622357,00.html Demjanjuk Sues German Government]. ''Der Spiegel''.</ref><ref name=Reut>Stern, Andrew (May 1, 2009). [http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN01315073 U.S. court clears way for Demjanjuk removal]. Reuters.</ref><ref name=CA6>[http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/internet/documents/Order_001.pdf Court Order Denying Stay].</ref> Although the stay was lifted, and the government free of legal constraints that prevented it from deporting Demjanjuk, his appeal for the substantive review of the BIA decision on the merits (wherein the BIA effectively upheld the deportation order itself, by refusing to reopen the case on the ground that "torture" in Germany was more likely than not) was still pending before the Court of Appeals.<ref>Case No. 09-3469. Companion case 09-3416, wherein Demjanjuk sought a stay prior to the BIA's denial of his motion to reopen the case on the merits, was dismissed as moot.</ref> However, the Court stated in its opinion denying the stay (in the process of addressing the question of the extent to which Demjanjuk was likely to succeed on the merits of his motion to reopen) that: <blockquote> ...the petitioner has not shown a strong or substantial likelihood of success on the merits of his challenge to... the [BIA's] denial of his motion to reopen. At most, he has offered speculation that German authorities may not adequately attend to his medical needs while he is in ... custody.<ref name=CA6/></blockquote>

====Petition to Supreme Court====
On Tuesday May 5, 2009 Demjanjuk announced through counsel that he was filing a petition with the U.S. Supreme Court, seeking review of the adverse decision of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals that had denied his stay. His counsel expected the filing to be made on Wednesday May 6. The filing characterized the unanimous decision of the three-judge Sixth Circuit panel as "incomprehensible."<ref>[http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hMy-Ec99rk_3jCtsHVd1aJZoKGwgD9809P782 AP Story]. Associated Press.</ref>

On Thursday May 7, 2009, the United States Supreme Court, acting through Justice [[John Paul Stevens]], declined to consider Demjanjuk's case for review, thereby denying Demjanjuk any further stay of deportation. Justice Stevens issued his decision without comment.<ref>[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30626371/ Supreme Court denies alleged Nazi guard's plea]. MSNBC. May 7, 2009.</ref><ref name=Sp>Meyer, Cordula (May 8, 2009). [http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,623665,00.html#ref=nlint Alleged Nazi Guard Demjanjuk Hits Legal Brick Wall]. ''Der Spiegel''.</ref> Demjanjuk's counsel thereafter stated that his client would not seek to have the entire Court consider Justice Stevens' decision and that accordingly all legal avenues in the United States to halt the deportation had been exhausted. The suit filed by Demjanjuk in Germany is not affected by the US decision and as of May 7, that case is still pending on Demjanjuk's appeal from an adverse decision by the Administrative Court in Berlin.<ref name=Sp/>

===="Torture" as basis for reopening the case====
Demjanjuk's motion to reopen is based on the claim that he will be tortured as a result of being deported. Demjanjuk claims that, because he is old and sick, transferring him to Germany will constitute "[[torture (US law definition)|torture]]" within the meaning of the [[United Nations Convention Against Torture|Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment]] (the Convention), and that this circumstance is sufficient to reopen consideration of his case.<ref>This sentence is a summary of the legal arguments on "torture" presented by Demjanjuk in his legal pleadings to date. ''See, e.g''., his [http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/internet/documents/MotionForStay.pdf Motion for Stay] filed with the Sixth Circuit.</ref> His attorney, John Broadley, argued before the BIA that deporting Demjanjuk would constitute torture because of his health problems, including pre-leukemia, kidney problems, spinal problems and "a couple of types of gout."<ref name=AP1/><ref name=CNN1/> To summarize the foregoing, his essential contention in his legal pleadings and public statements<ref>These public statements may be found in the news article citations herein.</ref> is, that it would be very hard on him, and perhaps life-threatening, to be taken away from his home in his present condition. He claims that this circumstance constitutes "torture."

While Demjanjuk was removed from his house in a wheelchair and appeared to be "slack-jawed and unmoving," on April 23, 2009, federal prosecutors submitted surveillance video evidence taken after the removal of Demjanjuk; the footage showed Demjanjuk walking with no assistance to a car in a parking lot while "alert and engaged in conversation."<ref name="cnn doctor">Frieden, Terry (April 23, 2009). [http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/23/us.nazi.doctor.report/ U.S. says videos disprove Demjanjuk's claim of poor health]. [[CNN]].</ref> They also provided the Court of Appeals with a medical report that supported their claim that Demjanjuk is medically fit to be moved to Germany; a flight surgeon who examined Demjanjuk while in government custody for alleged back pain later noticed that Demjanjuk "moved his back with apparent ease."<ref name="cnn doctor"/> The government lawyers stated that even if the court lifts the stay, they would defer deportation until at least May 1, to allow Demjanjuk time to file an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.<ref name="cnn doctor"/><ref>[http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2009/04/24/john-demjanjuk-video-is-extradition-back-on/is-former-nazi-camp-guard-really-too-ill-to-face-court.html The former Nazi camp guard supposedly 'too ill' to face court]. ''[[Bild]]''. April 24, 2009.</ref> On April 23, 2009, a group of students from The Hebrew Academy of the Five Towns and Rockaway petitioned the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to uphold the deportation order.<ref>[http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/33485/Hundreds+of+High+School+Students+Petition+Judge+to+Deport+Demjanjuk.htm Hundreds of High School Students Petition Judge to Deport Demjanjuk]. Yeshiva World News. April 27, 2009.</ref>

==== Deportation to Germany ====

Demjanjuk was deported to Germany, leaving [[Cleveland]] (USA) on 11 May 2009 to arrive in [[Munich]] (Germany) on May 12. Upon his arrival, he was arrested in Munich's [[Stadelheim prison]].<ref>Fischer, Sebastian; Neumann, Conny; Meyer, Cordula (May 12, 2009). [http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/zeitgeschichte/0,1518,624265,00.html Krankenwagen bringt Demjanjuk ins Untersuchungsgefängnis]. ''Der Spiegel''.</ref>

====Demjanjuk deemed fit to stand trial====
On July 3, 2009, prosecutors deemed Demjanjuk fit to stand trial. On July 13, 2009, prosecutors charged him with 27,900 counts of accessory to murder.<ref>[http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4475603,00.html Germany files charges against alleged Nazi guard Demjanjuk]. [[Deutsche Welle]]. July 13, 2009.</ref> Doctors have restricted the time Demjanjuk can be tried in court each day to two sessions of 90 minutes each, said Munich State Prosecutor Anton Winkler. Demnjanjuk's attorney said that due to the complexity of the evidence, the mandated short sessions could cause the trial to last three to five years.<ref name="ap demjanjuk att'y">[http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009611597_apeugermanydemjanjuk.html Demjanjuk lawyer calls for case to be closed]. [[Associated Press]]. August 6, 2009.</ref> Due to this and what he called Demjanjuk's ill health, Demjanjuk's attorney called for the case to be closed.<ref name="ap demjanjuk att'y"/>

==Displaced person claim==
On April 21, 2009, ''[[The Australian]]'' reported that Demjanjuk registered in 1948 as a displaced person. This category was reserved mainly for former [[concentration camp]] prisoners and forced laborers. The [[International Tracing Service]], a German agency that maintains data on Nazi victims, provided a copy of Demjanjuk's March 3, 1948, application to ''The Australian''.

In that application, Demjanjuk claimed to be a refugee, sought assistance, and asked for transfer to [[Argentina]]. His application stated that he worked as a driver at the [[Sobibor concentration camp]]; it did not mention any work as a guard at that camp. When interviewed in connection with the story, [[historian]] Hans-Jürgen Bömelburg ([[University of Giessen]]) stated that war criminals sometimes tried to escape justice after 1945 by presenting themselves victims of Nazi persecution, rather than as perpetrators.<ref>[http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25368834-2703,00.html Demjanjuk posed as a Nazi camp victim]. ''[[The Australian]]''. April 22, 2009.</ref>

According to [[Gitta Sereny]]'s ''The German Trauma'' (2000, ISBN 978-0-140-29263-3) there was a strong reason why Demjanjuk could have put down [[Sobibor extermination camp]] as the place where he worked from 1937 to 1943 as a farmhand (according to Sereny) in the application he made on the March 3, 1948. Applicants for [[displaced person]] status had to fill in a form that required them to say where they had been for the previous twelve years. Unless they could show that they had been living outside the [[Soviet Union]] on September 1, 1939, they could not, under the terms of the [[Yalta agreement]], be accepted as displaced persons and would be returned to the Soviet Union. Officials of the [[International Refugee Organisation]], which operated the [[Landshut]] office, therefore encouraged applicants to select places outside the Soviet Union. Sobibor was such a place. Sereny further relates that at Demjanjuk's trial in [[Israel]] on the [[Treblinka]] charges, Judge Dov Levin had asked Demjanjuk, "Why did you put Sobibor?" Demjanjuk had replied that he had no idea what to put on the form and that another applicant had had an atlas and told him to put down Sobibor as there had been many Ukrainians there.

Evidence that Demjanjuk might have been at Sobibor rather than Treblinka contributed to his successful appeal against his conviction in Israel on the Treblinka charges. He was not prosecuted in Israel on any charges relating to Sobibor as, ''inter alia'', his extradition from the USA had been obtained on the basis of the Treblinka charges.

==Trial in Germany==
On 30 November 2009 Demjanjuk's trial, expected to last for several months, began in [[Munich]].<ref>{{Citation |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8386576.stm |title=John Demjanjuk war crimes trial begins in Munich |work=BBC News |date=30 November 2009 }}</ref> Demjanjuk arrived in the courtroom in a wheelchair pushed by a German police officer.<ref>{{Citation |url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/world/europe/01trial.html |title=Man Tied to Death Camp Goes on Trial in Germany |newspaper=New York Times |date=November 30, 2009 |last=Kulish |first=Nicholas }}</ref>

35 joint plaintiffs have been admitted to file in the case, 4 survivors of the Sobibor concentration camp and 26 relatives of victims. The [[Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland]] appreciated Demjanjuk's extradiction and the trial, stressing its symbolic significance. "All NS criminals still living shall know that there won't be mercy for them, regardless of their age. They have to be held accountable for their inhuman deeds."<ref>[http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/de/article/2411.html Statement of the ZDJ], May 12, 2009 (german)</ref>

[[Christiaan F. Rüter]], Professor of law and expert on NS trials in Germany, who researched the subject at the [[University of Amsterdam]] for 40 years, expressed reservations against the commencement of proceedings. He stated that to him "it is a complete mystery, how anyone who knows the German jurisdiction up to now, would be able to assume that Demjanjuk could be sentenced beased on the given evidence."<ref>[http://www.daserste.de/doku/beitrag_dyn~uid,ub4hqwqmheayq31h~cm.asp ''Der Fall Demjanjuk'']. [[ARD_(broadcaster)|ARD]] documentation on the case of John Demjanjuk. November 30, 2009 (german)</ref>

==See also==
*[[Algimantas Dailidė]]
*[[Fydor Fedorenko]]
*[[Bohdan Koziy]]
*[[Karl Linnas]]
*[[Erich Lachmann]]
*[[Arthur Rudolph]]

==References and footnotes==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==
* [http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/demjanjuk/ Demjanjuk] - Compilation of ''[[The Plain Dealer (newspaper)|The Plain Dealer]]'' articles at Cleveland.com

{{DEFAULTSORT:Demjanjuk, John}}
[[Category:1920 births]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:Stateless persons]]
[[Category:Ukrainian Americans]]
[[Category:Loss of United States citizenship by prior Nazi affiliation]]
[[Category:People deported from the United States]]
[[Category:Overturned convictions]]
[[Category:Fugitives wanted by Germany]]
[[Category:People from Kiev Oblast]]
[[Category:Prisoners sentenced to death by Israel]]
[[Category:Ukrainian Nazi collaborators]]
[[Category:Holocaust perpetrators]]
[[Category:Soviet prisoners of war]]

[[cs:John Demjanjuk]]
[[da:John Demjanjuk]]
[[de:John Demjanjuk]]
[[es:John Demjanjuk]]
[[eo:Ivan Demjanjuk]]
[[fa:جان دمیانیوک]]
[[fr:John Demjanjuk]]
[[it:John Demjanjuk]]
[[he:ג'ון דמיאניוק]]
[[la:Ioannes Demjanjuk]]
[[nl:John Demjanjuk]]
[[ja:ジョン・デミャニュク]]
[[no:John Demjanjuk]]
[[pl:Iwan Demianiuk]]
[[ru:Демьянюк, Иван Николаевич]]
[[fi:John Demjanjuk]]
[[sv:John Demjanjuk]]
[[uk:Дем'янюк Іван Миколайович]]

Bungee jumping

2009-11-12T19:53:57Z

Papphase: /* History */

'''Bungee jumping''' (also spelled "Bungy" jumping)<ref>AJ Hackett (2008). [http://www.ajhackett.com.au/ ''Welcome to Cairns'']. Retrieved on 17 October 2008.</ref><ref>Jungle Bungy Jump (2008). [http://www.phuket.com/bungy/ ''Phuket Thailand'']. Retrieved on 17 October 2008.</ref> is an activity that involves jumping from a tall structure while connected to a large elastic cord. The tall structure is usually a fixed object, such as a building, [[bridge]] or crane; but it is also possible to jump from a movable object, such as a [[Hot air balloon|hot-air-balloon]] or [[helicopter]], that has the ability to [[hover]] above the ground. The thrill comes as much from the [[free-fall]]ing as from the rebounds.<ref>Kockelman JW, Hubbard M. Bungee jumping cord design using a simple model. ''Sports Engineering'' 2004; 7(2):89-96</ref>

[[Image:Bungie-Jumping.jpg|190px|thumbnail|right|Bungee Jump in Normandy, France ([[Souleuvre Viaduct]])]]

When the person jumps, the [[bungee cord|cord]] stretches and the jumper flies upwards again as the cord snaps back, and continues to oscillate up and down until all the energy is dissipated.

== History ==
[[Image:BungyViewCairns.jpg|thumb|left|View from the top of AJ Hackett Bungy Tower, Cairns, Queensland]]
The word bungee ({{pron-en|ˈbʌndʒiː}}) originates from [[West Country Dialects| West Country dialect]], meaning "Anything thick and squat", as defined by James Jennings in his book "Observations of Some of the Dialects in The West of England" published 1825. Around 1930 the name became used for a rubber [[eraser]]. The word bungy, as used by [[A J Hackett]], is said to be "[[Kiwi (people)|Kiwi]] slang for an Elastic Strap".<ref>[http://www.ajhackett.com.au/faq.htm www.ajhackett.com.au]{{Dead link|date=January 2008}}</ref>
Cloth-covered rubber cords with hooks on the ends have been available for decades under the generic name ''bungee cords.''

In the 1950s [[David Attenborough]] and a [[BBC]] film crew brought back footage of the "land divers" of [[Pentecost Island]] in [[Vanuatu]], young men who jumped from tall wooden platforms with vines tied to their ankles as a test of their courage and passage into manhood.<ref>AJ Hackett (2008). [http://www.ajhackett.com.au/history.html#info ''History'']. Retrieved on 17 October 2008.</ref> A similar practice, only with a much slower pace for falling, has been practiced as the [[Danza de los Voladores de Papantla]] or the 'Papantla flyers' of central [[Mexico]], a tradition dating back to the days of the [[Aztec]]s.

A tower 4,000 feet high with a system to drop a “car” suspended by a cable of “best rubber” was proposed for the Chicago World Fair, 1892-1893. The car, seating two hundred people, would be shoved from a platform on the tower and then bounce to a stop. The designer engineer suggested that for safety the ground below “be covered with eight feet of feather bedding”. The proposal was declined by the Fair’s organizers.<ref>Eric Larson, 2003 p135, ''The Devil in the White City; Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair that Changed America''. Citing ''Chicago Tribune'', Nov. 9, 1889.</ref>
[[Image:Kawarau River bungy.JPG|thumb|Bungee at Karawau Bridge]]
The first modern bungee jumps were made on 1 April 1979 from the 250-foot [[Clifton Suspension Bridge]] in Bristol, by David Kirke, Chris Baker, Simon Keeling, Tim Hunt and [[Alan Weston]] of the [[Oxford University]] [[Dangerous Sports Club]].<ref>Aerial Extreme Sports (2008). [http://library.thinkquest.org/C0123122/historybungee.htm ''History of Bungee'']. Retrieved on 17 October 2008.</ref> The jumpers were arrested shortly after, but continued with jumps in the US from the Golden Gate and Royal Gorge bridges, (this last jump sponsored by and televised on the [[United States|American]] program ''[[That's Incredible]]'') spreading the concept worldwide. By 1982 they were jumping from mobile cranes and hot air balloons. Commercial bungee jumping began with the [[New Zealand]]er, [[A J Hackett]], who made his first jump from [[Auckland, New Zealand|Auckland]]'s Greenhithe Bridge in 1986.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://unlimited.co.nz/unlimited.nsf/default/E71409A1DAE3EA24CC256EEC0010D618|title=Can you Hackett?|author=Fiona Rotherham|date=1 August 2004}}</ref> During the following years Hackett performed a number of jumps from bridges and other structures (including the [[Eiffel Tower]]), building public interest in the sport, and opening the world's first permanent commercial bungee site; the Kawarau Bridge Bungy at [[Queenstown, New Zealand|Queenstown]] in the [[South Island]] of [[New Zealand]].<ref>[http://www.bungy.co.nz/index.php/pi_pageid/17 AJ Hackett Bungy]</ref> Hackett remains one of the largest commercial operators, with concerns in several countries.

Despite the inherent danger of jumping from a great height, several million successful jumps have taken place since 1980. This is attributable to bungee operators rigorously conforming to standards and guidelines governing jumps, such as double checking calculations and fittings for every jump. As with any sport, injuries can still occur (see below), and there have been fatalities. A relatively common mistake in fatality cases is to use a cord that is too long. The cord should be substantially shorter than the height of the jumping platform to allow it room to stretch. When the cord reaches its natural length the jumper either starts to slow down or keeps accelerating depending upon the speed of descent. One may not even start to slow until the cord has been stretched a significant amount, because the cord's resistance to distortion is zero at the natural length, and increases only gradually after, taking some time to even equal the jumper's weight. See also [[Potential energy]] for a discussion of the spring constant and the force required to distort bungee cords and other spring-like objects.

==Equipment==

[[Image:Bill's Bungy Jump.jpg|thumb|right|Bungee jumping off the [[Victoria Falls Bridge]] in [[Southern Africa]]]]

The elastic rope first used in bungee jumping, and still used by many commercial operators, is factory-produced braided shock cord. This consists of many [[latex]] strands enclosed in a tough outer cover. The outer cover may be applied when the latex is pre-stressed, so that the cord's resistance to extension is already significant at the cord's natural length. This gives a harder, sharper bounce. The braided cover also provides significant durability benefits. Other operators, including A J Hackett and most [[Southern Hemisphere|southern-hemisphere]] operators, use unbraided cords in which the latex strands are exposed (pictured at right). These give a softer, longer bounce and can be home-produced.

Although there is a certain elegance in using only a simple ankle attachment, accidents in which participants became detached led many commercial operators to use a [[Climbing harness|body harness]], if only as a backup for an ankle attachment. Body harnesses are generally derived from climbing equipment rather than parachute equipment.

Retrieval methods vary according to the site used. [[Mobile crane]]s provide the greatest recovery speed and flexibility, the jumper being lowered rapidly to ground level and detached. Many other mechanisms have been devised according to the nature of the jump platform and the need for a rapid turn-around.

==The highest jump==

[[Image:Img 1074.jpg|thumb|left|Looking down from atop the Verzasca Dam bungee tower near [[Locarno]] in [[Ticino]], Switzerland]]

In August 2005, AJ Hackett added a SkyJump to the [[Macau Tower]], making it the world's highest jump at {{convert|233|m|ft}}.<ref>http://www.macautower.com.mo/eng/press/award02.asp</ref>. The SkyJump did not qualify as the world's highest ''bungee'' as it is not strictly speaking a bungee jump, but instead what is referred to as a 'Decelerator-Descent' jump, using a steel cable and decelerator system, rather than an elastic rope. On 17 December 2006, The Macau Tower started operating a proper bungee jump, which became the "Highest Commercial Bungee Jump In The World" according to the Guinness Book of Records. The Macau Tower Bungy does have a "Guide cable" system which limits swing (the jump is very close to the structure of the tower itself) but does not have any effect on the speed of descent, so this still qualifies the jump for the World Record.

There is another commercial bungee jump currently in operation which is just 13m smaller, at {{convert|220|m|ft}}. This jump, which is made without guide ropes, is located near Locarno, Switzerland and takes place from the top of the [[Verzasca Dam]] (pictured). This jump was prominently featured in the opening scene of the [[James Bond]] film [[GoldenEye]].

[[Image:Last resort nepal bridge.JPG|thumb|150px|right|Bungee jumping from the bridge at The Last Resort, [[Nepal]]]]

The [[Bloukrans Bridge]] in South Africa and the Verzasca Dam jumps are pure freefall swinging bungee from a single cord.

[[Bloukrans Bridge]] was opened in 1997 and uses a pendulum bungee system. It is 216m high, from the platform to the river below.<ref>[http://www.faceadrenalin.com/bloukransbridge.asp]}</ref>

Guinness only records jumps from fixed objects to guarantee the accuracy of the measurement. John Kockleman however recorded a {{convert|2200|ft|m|-1|adj=on}} bungee jump from a hot air balloon in California in 1989. In 1991 Andrew Salisbury jumped from {{convert|9000|ft|m|-2}} from a helicopter over Cancun for a television program and with Reebok sponsorship. The full stretch was recorded at {{convert|3157|ft|m}}. He landed safely under parachute.

One commercial jump higher than all others is at the [[Royal Gorge Bridge]] in Colorado. The height of the platform is {{convert|321|m|ft|0}}. However, this jump is rarely available, as part of the Royal Gorge Go Fast Games—first in 2005, then again in 2007.

==In popular culture==

[[Image:Saut à l'élastique Superman - Viaduc de la Souleuvre.JPG|thumb|150px|right|Bungee jumping from the [[Souleuvre Viaduct]] in [[Normandy]]]]

Several major movies have featured bungee jumps, most famously the opening sequence of the 1995 [[James Bond]] film ''[[GoldenEye]]'' in which Bond makes a jump over the edge of a dam in [[Russia]] (in reality the dam is in [[Switzerland]]: [[Verzasca Dam]], and the jump was genuine, not an animated special effect).

It appears in the title of the South Korean film [[Bungee Jumping of Their Own]] (Beonjijeompeureul hada 번지점프를 하다, 2001), although it does not play a large part in the film.

In 1986, the [[BBC]] TV program [[The Late, Late Breakfast Show]], presented by [[Noel Edmonds]], was taken off the air after a volunteer for its 'Whirly Wheel' live stunt section, Michael Lush, was killed while rehearsing a bungee jump.

In the 1982 Judge Dredd story 'Criminal Heights', published in the Daily Star, bungee jumping was portrayed as the next 'craze' to catch on in the City.

A fictional proto-bungee jump is a plot point in the [[Michael Chabon]] novel ''[[The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay]]''.

In the film [[Selena]], in which [[Jennifer Lopez]] plays Selena Quintanilla-Perez, she is shown bungee jumping at a carnival. This is an actual event which took place shortly before Selena's death in 1995.

==Variations==

In "Catapult" (Reverse Bungee or Bungee Rocket) the 'jumper' starts on the ground.<ref>{{cite web |title= Bungee Rocket BASE Jump - Wow!|url=http://www.asterpix.com/console/?avi=8502201}}</ref> The jumper is secured and the cord stretched, then released and shooting the jumper up into the air. This is often achieved using either a crane or a hoist attached to a (semi-)perma structure. This simplifies the action of stretching the cord and later lowering the participant to the ground.

''"Twin Tower" is similar with two oblique cords.''

Bungy Trampoline uses, as its name suggests, elements from bungy and trampolining. The participant begins on a trampoline and is fitted into a body harness, which is attached via bungy cords to two high poles on either side of the trampoline. As they begin to jump, the bungy cords are tightened, allowing a higher jump than could normally be made from a trampoline alone.

Bungee Running involves no jumping as such. It merely consists of, as the name suggests, running along a track with a bungee cord attached. One often has a velcro-backed marker which is used to mark how far the runner got before the bungee cord pulled back.

==Safety and possible injury==

[[Image:Mombas over Kawarau bridge --Queenstown--.jpg|thumb|left|Jumping at Kawarau Bridge in [[Queenstown, New Zealand]], April 2007.]]



There is a wide spectrum of possible injuries during a jump. One can be injured during a jump if the safety harness fails, the cord elasticity is miscalculated, or the cord is not properly connected to the jump platform. In most cases this is a result of human error in the form of mishandled harness preparation. Another major injury is if the jumper experiences cord entanglement with their own body. Other injuries include [[eye trauma]]<ref> Krott R, Mietz H, Krieglstein GK. Orbital emphysema as a complication of bungee jumping. Medical Science Sports Exercise 1997;29:850–2. </ref><ref> Vanderford L, Meyers M. Injuries and bungee jumping. Sports Medicine 1995;20:369–74</ref> , [[rope burn]], [[uterine prolapse]], [[dislocations]], [[bruises]], [[Whiplash (medicine)|whiplash]], [[pinched fingers]] and [[back injury]].

Age, equipment, experience, location and weight are some of the factors, and nervousness can exacerbate eye traumas <ref> Filipe JA, Pinto AM, Rosas V, et al. Retinal complications after bungee jumping. Int Ophthalmol 1994–95;18:359–60 </ref>
<ref> Jain BK, Talbot EM. Bungee jumping and intraocular haemorrhage. Br J Ophthalmol 1994;78:236–7. </ref>.

In 1997, Laura Patterson, one of a 16-member professional bungee jumping team, died of massive [[cranial]] trauma when she jumped from the top level of the [[Louisiana Superdome]] with improperly handled bungee cords and collided head-first into the concrete-based playing field. She was practicing for an exhibition intended to be performed during the [[halftime show]] of [[Super Bowl XXXI]]. The bungee jumping portion of the show was removed from the program and a commemoration of Patterson was added.

== References ==
{{commons}}
<references/>

[[Category:Outdoor recreation]]

[[bg:Скачане с бънджи]]
[[ca:Salt de pont]]
[[cs:Bungee jumping]]
[[da:Elastikspring]]
[[de:Bungee-Springen]]
[[es:Puentismo]]
[[eo:Saltado sur ŝnuro]]
[[eu:Gomasalto]]
[[fa:پرش بانجی]]
[[fr:Saut à l'élastique]]
[[ko:번지 점프]]
[[id:Lompat bungee]]
[[it:Bungee jumping]]
[[he:קפיצת באנג'י]]
[[hu:Kötélugrás]]
[[mk:Банџи скокање]]
[[nl:Bungeejumpen]]
[[ja:バンジージャンプ]]
[[no:Strikkhopping]]
[[pl:Bungee]]
[[pt:Bungee jumping]]
[[ru:Банджи-джампинг]]
[[simple:Bungee jumping]]
[[fi:Benji-hyppy]]
[[sv:Bungyjump]]
[[th:บันจีจัมพ์]]
[[tr:Bungee jumping]]
[[zh:蹦极]]

Bungee jumping

2009-11-12T19:53:07Z

Papphase: /* History */ +pic

'''Bungee jumping''' (also spelled "Bungy" jumping)<ref>AJ Hackett (2008). [http://www.ajhackett.com.au/ ''Welcome to Cairns'']. Retrieved on 17 October 2008.</ref><ref>Jungle Bungy Jump (2008). [http://www.phuket.com/bungy/ ''Phuket Thailand'']. Retrieved on 17 October 2008.</ref> is an activity that involves jumping from a tall structure while connected to a large elastic cord. The tall structure is usually a fixed object, such as a building, [[bridge]] or crane; but it is also possible to jump from a movable object, such as a [[Hot air balloon|hot-air-balloon]] or [[helicopter]], that has the ability to [[hover]] above the ground. The thrill comes as much from the [[free-fall]]ing as from the rebounds.<ref>Kockelman JW, Hubbard M. Bungee jumping cord design using a simple model. ''Sports Engineering'' 2004; 7(2):89-96</ref>

[[Image:Bungie-Jumping.jpg|190px|thumbnail|right|Bungee Jump in Normandy, France ([[Souleuvre Viaduct]])]]

When the person jumps, the [[bungee cord|cord]] stretches and the jumper flies upwards again as the cord snaps back, and continues to oscillate up and down until all the energy is dissipated.

== History ==
[[Image:BungyViewCairns.jpg|thumb|left|View from the top of AJ Hackett Bungy Tower, Cairns, Queensland]]
The word bungee ({{pron-en|ˈbʌndʒiː}}) originates from [[West Country Dialects| West Country dialect]], meaning "Anything thick and squat", as defined by James Jennings in his book "Observations of Some of the Dialects in The West of England" published 1825. Around 1930 the name became used for a rubber [[eraser]]. The word bungy, as used by [[A J Hackett]], is said to be "[[Kiwi (people)|Kiwi]] slang for an Elastic Strap".<ref>[http://www.ajhackett.com.au/faq.htm www.ajhackett.com.au]{{Dead link|date=January 2008}}</ref>
Cloth-covered rubber cords with hooks on the ends have been available for decades under the generic name ''bungee cords.''

In the 1950s [[David Attenborough]] and a [[BBC]] film crew brought back footage of the "land divers" of [[Pentecost Island]] in [[Vanuatu]], young men who jumped from tall wooden platforms with vines tied to their ankles as a test of their courage and passage into manhood.<ref>AJ Hackett (2008). [http://www.ajhackett.com.au/history.html#info ''History'']. Retrieved on 17 October 2008.</ref> A similar practice, only with a much slower pace for falling, has been practiced as the [[Danza de los Voladores de Papantla]] or the 'Papantla flyers' of central [[Mexico]], a tradition dating back to the days of the [[Aztec]]s.

A tower 4,000 feet high with a system to drop a “car” suspended by a cable of “best rubber” was proposed for the Chicago World Fair, 1892-1893. The car, seating two hundred people, would be shoved from a platform on the tower and then bounce to a stop. The designer engineer suggested that for safety the ground below “be covered with eight feet of feather bedding”. The proposal was declined by the Fair’s organizers.<ref>Eric Larson, 2003 p135, ''The Devil in the White City; Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair that Changed America''. Citing ''Chicago Tribune'', Nov. 9, 1889.</ref>
[[Image:Kawarau River bungy.JPG|thumb|Bungee at Karawau Bridger Kawarau Bridge]]
The first modern bungee jumps were made on 1 April 1979 from the 250-foot [[Clifton Suspension Bridge]] in Bristol, by David Kirke, Chris Baker, Simon Keeling, Tim Hunt and [[Alan Weston]] of the [[Oxford University]] [[Dangerous Sports Club]].<ref>Aerial Extreme Sports (2008). [http://library.thinkquest.org/C0123122/historybungee.htm ''History of Bungee'']. Retrieved on 17 October 2008.</ref> The jumpers were arrested shortly after, but continued with jumps in the US from the Golden Gate and Royal Gorge bridges, (this last jump sponsored by and televised on the [[United States|American]] program ''[[That's Incredible]]'') spreading the concept worldwide. By 1982 they were jumping from mobile cranes and hot air balloons. Commercial bungee jumping began with the [[New Zealand]]er, [[A J Hackett]], who made his first jump from [[Auckland, New Zealand|Auckland]]'s Greenhithe Bridge in 1986.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://unlimited.co.nz/unlimited.nsf/default/E71409A1DAE3EA24CC256EEC0010D618|title=Can you Hackett?|author=Fiona Rotherham|date=1 August 2004}}</ref> During the following years Hackett performed a number of jumps from bridges and other structures (including the [[Eiffel Tower]]), building public interest in the sport, and opening the world's first permanent commercial bungee site; the Kawarau Bridge Bungy at [[Queenstown, New Zealand|Queenstown]] in the [[South Island]] of [[New Zealand]].<ref>[http://www.bungy.co.nz/index.php/pi_pageid/17 AJ Hackett Bungy]</ref> Hackett remains one of the largest commercial operators, with concerns in several countries.

Despite the inherent danger of jumping from a great height, several million successful jumps have taken place since 1980. This is attributable to bungee operators rigorously conforming to standards and guidelines governing jumps, such as double checking calculations and fittings for every jump. As with any sport, injuries can still occur (see below), and there have been fatalities. A relatively common mistake in fatality cases is to use a cord that is too long. The cord should be substantially shorter than the height of the jumping platform to allow it room to stretch. When the cord reaches its natural length the jumper either starts to slow down or keeps accelerating depending upon the speed of descent. One may not even start to slow until the cord has been stretched a significant amount, because the cord's resistance to distortion is zero at the natural length, and increases only gradually after, taking some time to even equal the jumper's weight. See also [[Potential energy]] for a discussion of the spring constant and the force required to distort bungee cords and other spring-like objects.

==Equipment==

[[Image:Bill's Bungy Jump.jpg|thumb|right|Bungee jumping off the [[Victoria Falls Bridge]] in [[Southern Africa]]]]

The elastic rope first used in bungee jumping, and still used by many commercial operators, is factory-produced braided shock cord. This consists of many [[latex]] strands enclosed in a tough outer cover. The outer cover may be applied when the latex is pre-stressed, so that the cord's resistance to extension is already significant at the cord's natural length. This gives a harder, sharper bounce. The braided cover also provides significant durability benefits. Other operators, including A J Hackett and most [[Southern Hemisphere|southern-hemisphere]] operators, use unbraided cords in which the latex strands are exposed (pictured at right). These give a softer, longer bounce and can be home-produced.

Although there is a certain elegance in using only a simple ankle attachment, accidents in which participants became detached led many commercial operators to use a [[Climbing harness|body harness]], if only as a backup for an ankle attachment. Body harnesses are generally derived from climbing equipment rather than parachute equipment.

Retrieval methods vary according to the site used. [[Mobile crane]]s provide the greatest recovery speed and flexibility, the jumper being lowered rapidly to ground level and detached. Many other mechanisms have been devised according to the nature of the jump platform and the need for a rapid turn-around.

==The highest jump==

[[Image:Img 1074.jpg|thumb|left|Looking down from atop the Verzasca Dam bungee tower near [[Locarno]] in [[Ticino]], Switzerland]]

In August 2005, AJ Hackett added a SkyJump to the [[Macau Tower]], making it the world's highest jump at {{convert|233|m|ft}}.<ref>http://www.macautower.com.mo/eng/press/award02.asp</ref>. The SkyJump did not qualify as the world's highest ''bungee'' as it is not strictly speaking a bungee jump, but instead what is referred to as a 'Decelerator-Descent' jump, using a steel cable and decelerator system, rather than an elastic rope. On 17 December 2006, The Macau Tower started operating a proper bungee jump, which became the "Highest Commercial Bungee Jump In The World" according to the Guinness Book of Records. The Macau Tower Bungy does have a "Guide cable" system which limits swing (the jump is very close to the structure of the tower itself) but does not have any effect on the speed of descent, so this still qualifies the jump for the World Record.

There is another commercial bungee jump currently in operation which is just 13m smaller, at {{convert|220|m|ft}}. This jump, which is made without guide ropes, is located near Locarno, Switzerland and takes place from the top of the [[Verzasca Dam]] (pictured). This jump was prominently featured in the opening scene of the [[James Bond]] film [[GoldenEye]].

[[Image:Last resort nepal bridge.JPG|thumb|150px|right|Bungee jumping from the bridge at The Last Resort, [[Nepal]]]]

The [[Bloukrans Bridge]] in South Africa and the Verzasca Dam jumps are pure freefall swinging bungee from a single cord.

[[Bloukrans Bridge]] was opened in 1997 and uses a pendulum bungee system. It is 216m high, from the platform to the river below.<ref>[http://www.faceadrenalin.com/bloukransbridge.asp]}</ref>

Guinness only records jumps from fixed objects to guarantee the accuracy of the measurement. John Kockleman however recorded a {{convert|2200|ft|m|-1|adj=on}} bungee jump from a hot air balloon in California in 1989. In 1991 Andrew Salisbury jumped from {{convert|9000|ft|m|-2}} from a helicopter over Cancun for a television program and with Reebok sponsorship. The full stretch was recorded at {{convert|3157|ft|m}}. He landed safely under parachute.

One commercial jump higher than all others is at the [[Royal Gorge Bridge]] in Colorado. The height of the platform is {{convert|321|m|ft|0}}. However, this jump is rarely available, as part of the Royal Gorge Go Fast Games—first in 2005, then again in 2007.

==In popular culture==

[[Image:Saut à l'élastique Superman - Viaduc de la Souleuvre.JPG|thumb|150px|right|Bungee jumping from the [[Souleuvre Viaduct]] in [[Normandy]]]]

Several major movies have featured bungee jumps, most famously the opening sequence of the 1995 [[James Bond]] film ''[[GoldenEye]]'' in which Bond makes a jump over the edge of a dam in [[Russia]] (in reality the dam is in [[Switzerland]]: [[Verzasca Dam]], and the jump was genuine, not an animated special effect).

It appears in the title of the South Korean film [[Bungee Jumping of Their Own]] (Beonjijeompeureul hada 번지점프를 하다, 2001), although it does not play a large part in the film.

In 1986, the [[BBC]] TV program [[The Late, Late Breakfast Show]], presented by [[Noel Edmonds]], was taken off the air after a volunteer for its 'Whirly Wheel' live stunt section, Michael Lush, was killed while rehearsing a bungee jump.

In the 1982 Judge Dredd story 'Criminal Heights', published in the Daily Star, bungee jumping was portrayed as the next 'craze' to catch on in the City.

A fictional proto-bungee jump is a plot point in the [[Michael Chabon]] novel ''[[The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay]]''.

In the film [[Selena]], in which [[Jennifer Lopez]] plays Selena Quintanilla-Perez, she is shown bungee jumping at a carnival. This is an actual event which took place shortly before Selena's death in 1995.

==Variations==

In "Catapult" (Reverse Bungee or Bungee Rocket) the 'jumper' starts on the ground.<ref>{{cite web |title= Bungee Rocket BASE Jump - Wow!|url=http://www.asterpix.com/console/?avi=8502201}}</ref> The jumper is secured and the cord stretched, then released and shooting the jumper up into the air. This is often achieved using either a crane or a hoist attached to a (semi-)perma structure. This simplifies the action of stretching the cord and later lowering the participant to the ground.

''"Twin Tower" is similar with two oblique cords.''

Bungy Trampoline uses, as its name suggests, elements from bungy and trampolining. The participant begins on a trampoline and is fitted into a body harness, which is attached via bungy cords to two high poles on either side of the trampoline. As they begin to jump, the bungy cords are tightened, allowing a higher jump than could normally be made from a trampoline alone.

Bungee Running involves no jumping as such. It merely consists of, as the name suggests, running along a track with a bungee cord attached. One often has a velcro-backed marker which is used to mark how far the runner got before the bungee cord pulled back.

==Safety and possible injury==

[[Image:Mombas over Kawarau bridge --Queenstown--.jpg|thumb|left|Jumping at Kawarau Bridge in [[Queenstown, New Zealand]], April 2007.]]



There is a wide spectrum of possible injuries during a jump. One can be injured during a jump if the safety harness fails, the cord elasticity is miscalculated, or the cord is not properly connected to the jump platform. In most cases this is a result of human error in the form of mishandled harness preparation. Another major injury is if the jumper experiences cord entanglement with their own body. Other injuries include [[eye trauma]]<ref> Krott R, Mietz H, Krieglstein GK. Orbital emphysema as a complication of bungee jumping. Medical Science Sports Exercise 1997;29:850–2. </ref><ref> Vanderford L, Meyers M. Injuries and bungee jumping. Sports Medicine 1995;20:369–74</ref> , [[rope burn]], [[uterine prolapse]], [[dislocations]], [[bruises]], [[Whiplash (medicine)|whiplash]], [[pinched fingers]] and [[back injury]].

Age, equipment, experience, location and weight are some of the factors, and nervousness can exacerbate eye traumas <ref> Filipe JA, Pinto AM, Rosas V, et al. Retinal complications after bungee jumping. Int Ophthalmol 1994–95;18:359–60 </ref>
<ref> Jain BK, Talbot EM. Bungee jumping and intraocular haemorrhage. Br J Ophthalmol 1994;78:236–7. </ref>.

In 1997, Laura Patterson, one of a 16-member professional bungee jumping team, died of massive [[cranial]] trauma when she jumped from the top level of the [[Louisiana Superdome]] with improperly handled bungee cords and collided head-first into the concrete-based playing field. She was practicing for an exhibition intended to be performed during the [[halftime show]] of [[Super Bowl XXXI]]. The bungee jumping portion of the show was removed from the program and a commemoration of Patterson was added.

== References ==
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[[Category:Outdoor recreation]]

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Joe E. Lewis

2009-11-03T19:43:19Z

Papphase: de:WP

{{Infobox Person | name =Joe E. Lewis | image =| image_size = | caption = | birth_name =Joseph Klewan | birth_date = {{Birth date|1902|1|12}} | birth_place =[[New York City]] | death_date = {{Death date and age|1971|6|4|1902|1|12}} | death_place = | death_cause = | resting_place =[[Cedar Park Cemetery, Emerson, New Jersey]] | resting_place_coordinates = | residence = | nationality = | other_names = | known_for = | education = | employer = | occupation = | title = | salary = | networth = | height = | weight = | term = | predecessor = | successor = | party = | boards = | religion = | spouse = | partner = | children = | parents = | relatives = | signature = | website = | footnotes = }}

'''Joe E. Lewis''' ([[January 12]], [[1902]] – [[4 June]], [[1971]]), born '''Joseph Klewan''' in [[New York City]], was an [[United States|American]] comedian and singer.

==Biography==
In 1927, Lewis refused the request of [[Jack McGurn|Jack "Machine Gun" McGurn]] (an [[Al Capone]] lieutenant) to renew a contract that would have bound him to sing and perform at the "[[Green Mill]] Cocktail Lounge", which was partly owned by Capone. After refusing, because he had been offered more money by a rival gang to appear at their own club - "The New Rendezvous", he was later assaulted one morning in November 1927 in his 10th floor Commonwealth Hotel room, mutilated and left for dead. It took him a few years to learn to speak again. <ref name="Joe E. Lewis - Biography">[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0507367/bio Joe E. Lewis - Biography]</ref> Capone, who was fond of Lewis, was displeased with the assault, but wasn't about to take action against one of his top lieutenants. He proceeded to provide Lewis with $10,000 to allow him to recover properly and eventually resume his career.<ref>[http://www.weirdchicago.com/greenmill.html Weird Chicago: Legend Of The Green Mill]</ref> <ref>{{cite news |first= |last= |authorlink= |coauthors= |title=More Old Jewish Comedians |url=http://www.playbackstl.com/content/view/7484/167/ |quote=Early in his career, Lewis was assaulted by one of Al Capone's thugs for declining an offer to perform at Chicago's Green Mill club, a Capone hideaway. He was beaten so badly it took him several years to learn to speak again. |publisher=Playbackstl |date= |accessdate=2008-04-12 }}</ref>

Lewis toured in the [[USO]] shows with [[Ray Bolger]] in the [[Pacific Theater of Operations|Pacific Theater]] during [[World War II]]. Joe appeared in the movies "Too Many Husbands" (the 1931 short comedy), "Private Number" (1936), "The Holy Terror" (1937), "[[Private Buckaroo]]" (1942) & played himself in ''[[Lady In Cement]]'' (1968). He appeared frequently on "[[The Ed Sullivan Show]]" and was the "Mystery Guest" three different times on "[[What's My Line]]" and was interviewed on "[[Person to Person]]" in 1956. He married Martha Stewart in 1946 and they divorced in 1948. [[Random House]] published Lewis's biography "The Joker is Wild" written by [[Art Cohn]] in 1955. <ref name="Joe E. Lewis - Biography"/>

He died in 1971 and was buried in [[Cedar Park Cemetery, Emerson, New Jersey]]. <ref name=nyt1>{{cite news |first= |last= |authorlink= |coauthors= |title= Sometimes the Grave Is a Fine and Public Place |url= |quote=[[Cedar Park Cemetery, Emerson|Cedar Park Cemetery]] in Paramus [sic] tends toward performers. [[Martin Balsam]], who won both a Tony and an Oscar was buried there in 1996. Joe E. Lewis, the comic whose rough life was portrayed by [[Frank Sinatra]] in the 1957 movie, ''[[The Joker Is Wild]],'' is nearby. (As are two illustrious nonperformers, the Nobel Prize writer Isaac Bashevis Singer and the poet [[Delmore Schwartz]].)|publisher=[[New York Times]] |date=[[March 28]], [[2004]] |accessdate=2007-08-21 }}</ref>

==Quotations==
*"It's post time!" - a reference to horses at the starting gate - after which he would start a new cocktail.
*"A friend in need is a pest."
*"You're not drunk enough if you can still lie on the floor without hanging on."
*"I went on a diet, swore off drinking and heavy eating, and in 14 days I lost two weeks."
*"I distrust camels, and anyone else who can go a week without a drink."
*"There's only one thing money won't buy, and that is poverty."
*"I Always Wake at the Crack of Ice."

==Portrayal in film==
*In the film ''[[The Joker Is Wild]]'' (1957), Lewis was portrayed by [[Frank Sinatra]].

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
* {{imdb name|id=0507367|name=Joe E. Lewis}}
*[http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/joe_e_lewis.html Joe E. Lewis quotes]
*[http://www.greenmilljazz.com/ Green Mill Cocktail Lounge]
*[http://www.uso.org/whatwedo/entertainment/historicalusocampshows/ USO shows]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Lewis, Joe E.}}
[[Category:1902 births]]
[[Category:1971 deaths]]
[[Category:American comedians]]
[[Category:American male singers]]
[[Category:American stand-up comedians]]
[[Category:People from New York City]]
[[Category:Vaudeville performers]]

[[pt:Joe E. Lewis]]
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Firefall

2009-11-02T23:03:19Z

Papphase: sry

{{Otheruses4|the band|the nightly event in [[Yosemite National Park]]|Yosemite Firefall}}
{{Infobox musical artist 
| Name = Firefall
| Img =
| Img_capt =
| Background = group_or_band
| Origin = [[Boulder, Colorado]]
| Genre = [[Country Rock]], [[rock music|Rock]], [[Pop/Rock]]
| Years_active = 1974 – present
| Label = [[Atlantic Records]]
| Associated_acts =
| URL = [http://www.firefall.com Official site]
| Current_members = [[Jock Bartley]] [[Chris Ball]] [[Steven Weinmeister]] [[Bill Hopkins]] [[Sandy Ficca]]
| Past_members = [[Rick Roberts (musician)|Rick Roberts]] [[Larry Burnett]] [[Mark Andes]] [[Michael Clarke (musician)|Michael Clarke]] [[George Hawkins]] [[Tris Imboden]] [[Kim Stone]] [[David Muse]] [[Dallas Schoo]]
}}
'''Firefall''' is a [[rock music|rock]] [[Band (music)|band]] that formed in [[Boulder, Colorado]] in 1974. It was founded by [[Rick Roberts (musician)|Rick Roberts]], who had been in [[the Flying Burrito Brothers]], and [[Jock Bartley]], who had been [[Tommy Bolin]]'s replacement in [[Zephyr (band)|Zephyr]]. The band's biggest hit single, "[[You Are the Woman]]", peaked at #9 on the [[Billboard magazine|Billboard chart]]s in 1976. Other hits include "Just Remember I Love You" (#11 in 1977), "Strange Way" (#11 in 1978), and "Staying with It" from 1981, with female vocalist Lisa Nemzo.

== History ==
=== Beginnings ===
In the early 1970s, [[Rick Roberts (musician)|Rick Roberts]] and [[Jock Bartley]] first crossed paths when Bartley was on tour with [[Gram Parsons]] as a member of his backing band The Fallen Angels. Both The Fallen Angels and Roberts were performing in [[New York City]] at the same venue on consecutive nights. Roberts was impressed by Bartley's guitar work. The duo soon began practicing together. Encouraged to form a band, they contacted [[bass guitar|bassist]]-[[singer]] [[Mark Andes]] (a former member of the bands [[Spirit]] and [[Jo Jo Gunne]] who had temporarily retired to the mountains outside of [[Boulder, Colorado]]) and [[Washington D.C.]] [[singer-songwriter|singer-songwriter-guitarist]] Larry Burnett and coaxed them into joining their band, which they christened Firefall in 1974. Roberts got the name from a tradition at [[Yosemite National Park]] in California where a woodpile would be set aflame and slowly pushed off a cliff, the burning logs forming a blazing cascade as they fell.

For the drum chair the group auditioned several local musicians but eventually decided to phone Roberts' former band mate from [[Flying Burrito Brothers]], [[Michael Clarke (musician)|Michael Clarke]], who was most famous for his time spent in the '60s [[folk-rock]] band [[The Byrds]]. Clarke, who had recently relocated to Hawaii, agreed to come aboard.

The band tightened up their act performing in clubs in [[Colorado]] for over a year, mainly in Boulder and [[Aspen, Colorado|Aspen]]. In early 1975 the band recorded a demo tape consisting of three songs produced by [[Chris Hillman]]. They then began taking it around to major labels, but were unsuccessful at first.

=== Breakthrough and Success ===

In 1975 Bartley, Andes and Roberts were brought into Chris Hillman's band. Before a scheduled performance at The Other End in New York, Hillman took ill and was unable to play the show or finish the tour. Burnett and Clarke were then flown in to complete the commitments. Atlantic A&R representatives (who had already heard the band's demo tape) saw the Other End show and quickly signed the band to a multi-album contract. Work on their first album began in late 1975.

Just before the debut album's recording sessions at [[Criteria Studios]] in [[Miami]], they brought in Roberts' high school friend from [[Bradenton, Florida]], David Muse. Muse was a multi-instrumentalist who played the [[saxophone]], [[flute]], [[harmonica]] and [[keyboards]]. [[Jim Mason (producer)|Jim Mason]], who had worked with [[Poco]] in the past, was producer.

The album was recorded in one month and the result, the self-titled ''Firefall'', released in May 1976, became Atlantic Records quickest album to reach Gold status. The group's first single, "Livin' Ain't Livin' ", stopped just short of the Top 40. In the following months the band toured with [[Leon Russell|Leon]] and [[Mary Russell]], [[the Doobie Brothers]] and [[The Band]].

The band's next single "[[You Are the Woman]]", hit the Top 10 and the band began touring with [[Fleetwood Mac]], who were at the beginning of their commercial peak. Their next single, "Cinderella", though it reached the Top 40 and was played extensively on FM radio, did not fare as well on AM radio because of its controversial lyrics which caused feminist groups to pressure the stations to avoid playing it. However, this did not have a lasting effect on the band's sales.

The group then headed back to Criteria Studios to record their second album, which was to be titled ''Tropical Nights''. They were joined by Cuban percussionist [[Joe Lala]](ex-[[Manassas]]) and the [[Memphis Horns]]. But after hearing the final mix, Atlantic Records decided that the album needed to be reworked. Firefall then went back on tour, redid several songs and added some new ones. The album was renamed ''Luna Sea'' and released in July 1977. The revamped LP peaked at #27 on the charts and went Gold less than two months after release. The single from the album "Just Remember I Love You", featuring backing vocals by future [[Eagles|Eagle]] [[Timothy B. Schmit]], reached the Top 10.

It was around this time that tensions were beginning to rise within the group, stemming from non-stop touring and management problems, not to mention frequent alcohol and drug abuse. At this time the group was also incredibly popular and playing to sold-out crowds with Fleetwood Mac as part of their ''[[Rumours]]'' tour. But this only delayed their disintegration for a short time.

In 1978, the band brought in producer [[Tom Dowd]], who had worked with [[the Allman Brothers Band]] and [[Eric Clapton]] , among many others, to produce their third album ''Elan'', recording some at Criteria and some at L.A.'s [[Record Plant]]. The band and Dowd got along well personally but they had conflicting musical visions. The differences were apparently noticeable enough that the band's new management pressured the record label into letting the band rework the album. This put the band in debt with the label, and within the year they parted ways with their new management. The production team of [[Ron Albert|Ron]] and [[Howard Albert]] were brought in to finish the record. Luckily, ''Elan'', released in October 1978, was a massive success, and it became their first album to reach Platinum status. The hit single "Strange Way" continued the band's commercial hot streak.

=== Decline ===
After two years of non-stop recording and touring, the band seemed burnt out. Several band members were not on speaking terms with each other and their financial situation was less than perfect.

Despite this, Atlantic Records still expected a new album. The band recorded the album sporadically over a year. The Alberts were again brought in to produce the album, but the band once again required a second effort, which was produced by [[Kyle Lehning]]. The result, entitled ''[[Undertow (Firefall album)|Undertow]]'', was released in March 1980. This would be the last album with the original lineup. During a 1980 tour of Japan, Michael Clarke, due to his binge drinking, missed gigs or showed up in no condition to play. The band resorted to hiring a German drummer, Dan Holsten, whose playing technique was similar to Clarke's, to sit in. Holsten, who even looked a lot like Clarke, had played in several other bands in the Colorado area and caught the eye of Jock and Larry one night at a Colorado Springs bar. He became known as a 'reliable' back up drummer for tours and some studio work. Upon completion of the tour, Clarke and Mark Andes both left the band. Clarke later died of alcoholism at his Treasure Island home in Florida in December 1993.

They were later permanently replaced by [[Kenny Loggins]]' former rhythm section, consisting of bassist [[George Hawkins]] and drummer [[Tris Imboden]]. With the two new players, the band recorded ''[[Clouds Across the Sun]]'', which was released in December 1980 and spawned the early 1981 hit "Staying With It", which was done as a duet with singer Lisa Nemzo. After only a few television appearances, Hawkins resigned from the group to join up with [[Mick Fleetwood's Zoo]] , a side project the Fleetwood Mac drummer was recording in Africa. Hawkins was replaced by Kim Stone. Everything seemed to be on track until Larry Burnett suddenly disappeared from the group while on tour in April 1981 to return home, citing ill health as his reason (Burnett eventually kicked a serious drug habit and is now pursuing a solo career). After playing a concert with the band in Hawaii not long afterwards, Rick Roberts announced that he also was leaving for a solo career. With the band lacking personnel and increasing financial debt, Atlantic records dropped Firefall from their roster in 1981 and released ''Best of Firefall'' at the close of that year.

=== Resumption and Later Work ===
Upset with the way things had turned out, Jock Bartley decided to put together a new lineup in early 1982.
At Ron Albert's suggestion, Jock got together with two Miami based musicians, John Sambataro and Chuck Kirkpatrick.
Sambataro was a singer/guitarist/keyboardist/bassist/songwriter who'd sung on record with [[Stephen Stills]], [[Eric Clapton]], [[Dave Mason]], [[McGuinn, Clark & Hillman]], the members of the [[Bee Gees]] and many others. John and Jock had actually met back in 1978 when they both played on the Criteria sessions for [[Andy Gibb]]'s Platinum album, ''Shadow Dancing''. Kirkpatrick was a singer/guitarist/keyboardist who'd sung with John on a number of the aforementioned sessions and had worked as an engineer at Criteria on such albums as [[Derek & The Dominos]]' ''Layla''. Albert then brought in Alan Jacobi, a Miami entertainment lawyer who had a relationship with Atlantic and Jacobi convinced the label to help fund Firefall's rekindling. Atlantic sprang for some new demos which led to a new album deal, and in the spring of 1982, Criteria sessions for the ''Break of Dawn'' LP began with Ron and brother Howard producing once again. Backing Bartley, Sambataro and Kirkpatrick were a number of Miami session players, with Stephen Stills and Rick Roberts making guest appearances. The album appeared in September 1982 and Jock, John and Chuck began auditioning additional players for a followup tour. Chuck's brother Scott(a top notch session drummer who, like John, had also played on record and toured with McGuinn, Clark & Hillman) and Colorado bassist Greg Overton were chosen and, at the last minute, David Muse decided to rejoin the band.

In the winter of 1983, Firefall set out across the U.S. to promote ''Break of Dawn''. Unfortunately, the single from it, "Always," failed to reach the Top 40 and quickly fell off the charts.

''Mirror of the World'' followed in the fall of 1983, the title track a comment on the effects of TV violence on children. The album had a much harder edge than its predecessors, which many radio programmers thought reflected too great a departure from the classic Firefall sound. Though the first single, the rocking "Runaway Love", written by Bartley, Sambataro and Paul Crosta, briefly appeared in a video on MTV and received limited radio airplay, this album too failed to attract sales and quickly disappeared.

The group, once again dropped by Atlantic, nevertheless continued to tour, headlining in smaller clubs and opening in larger venues for groups like the [[Beach Boys]], [[Little River Band]] and [[Bob Seger & the Silver Bullet Band]]. In 1983 Overton quit(he would return briefly to play a few shows in 1986 as a fill-in) and Muse decided to retire from touring again. Steve Hadjoupolos(woodwinds, keyboards, backing vocals) and Bob Gaffney(bass, vocals) were brought in and the group soldiered on. Sandy Ficca replaced Scott Kirkpatrick on drums in 1984 and is still with them to date.

On the evening of August 4, 1986, Chuck Kirkpatrick was leaving from a local club gig in the area of Florida where he resided. After breaking down on the road home, he was shot and wounded in the arm by a freak passerby in a car who then fled the scene. The wound was serious enough to almost require amputation of Chuck's left arm, but thankfully, doctors were able to save it and Chuck was able to play again after a very difficult rehab period. Many Miami musicians, including [[Jon Secada]] and members of the [[Miami Sound Machine]], came to Chuck's aid playing a series of shows to help defray the cost of Chuck's medical care and rehab. Firefall brought in Colorado musician Mark Oblinger to sit in for Chuck until he was able to return to the band in November 1986. But Kirkpatrick's tenure in the band was coming to an end. In late 1987 Gaffney left and Eddie Gleason came in in the interim. Then Chuck left at the tail end of 1987 after differences with Jock Bartley. Oblinger(who'd subbed for both Chuck and Gaffney in 1986) returned as Kirkpatrick's permanent replacement in December 1987 and Bil Hopkins was the new bassist. Dan Clawson(ex-[[Pure Prairie League]]) came in
as well to take the place of Hadjoupolos in early 1988.

In 1989, after seven years in Firefall, Sambataro decided it was also time to say goodbye. Surprisingly, this paved the way for the return of Rick Roberts and in September 1992 Rhino Records responded to the demand to put out Firefall music on CD by releasing ''Firefall: The Greatest Hits'' which featured all of the singles and AOR favorites and one new song, "Run Run Away," about adult victims of earlier child abuse.

In the early 90s the personnel shuffles continued. Oblinger left in late 1992 to be replaced by Bruce Crichton, who turned it over to Steve Manshel in June 1993. Roberts, who was suffering from health problems, left as well with Steven Weinmeister coming on board in May 1993. After Dan Clawson left that same year there were several people to occupy the woodwind/keyboards chair, including Bray Ghiglia(1993-1994), the returning David Muse(1994-1995; 2000-2003), Jim Waddell(1993; 1995-96; 1998-2000; 2003) and Bob Fisher(1996-1998; 2007). Chris Ball has been the band's regular sax/flute/keys player since 2003.

While touring in 1993 Firefall encountered the terrible [[Flood of 1993]]. One of their gigs was canceled and a few had to be moved to higher ground. In response Jock wrote "When The River Rises", a song with an upbeat message of finding strength in adversity. The band recorded the song in [[Colorado Springs]] at Startsong Recording Studio, with engineer/programmer, Tom Gregor, co-producing with Bartley. "When The River Rises" was then brought back to St. Louis and played on the radio for the first time. At that point, the flood waters had still not crested. Vowing to donate a large portion of the publishing to Flood Relief, the song was sent to other radio stations in the flooded areas. It received heavy regional airplay and was also used by [[CNN]] and other TV stations behind coverage of the disaster.

With the band's profile raised, the search for a new record deal began. Some smaller companies showed interest. They decided to go with a Colorado independent label, Redstone Records, who'd had some successes in the smooth jazz genre. ''Messenger'' was recorded in Denver and Boulder and was released in September 1994. Bartley had been stock piling songs for ten years for just this opportunity. Along with the hard edged "When The River Rises" and "Secret," his songs "Love Find A Way," "Very First Moment" (co-written with Rick Roberts) and "Who Ran Away" gave the album a familiar but updated Firefall sound. Bil Hopkins' song, "Say It's Over" (written with Mark Oblinger) and Steve Manshel's powerful "Innocent Victim" also appeared on the CD. Mark Andes and [[Richie Furay]] made guest appearances on the album and Jim Mason returned to the producer's chair. ''Messenger'' was much more diverse than anything the band had released to date with the usual love songs and ballads, but there were also songs about child abuse, environmental catastrophe and even sexual abuse/rape in the chilling "No Means No". The first single, "Love Find A Way," received some minor play on some stations, but Redstone didn't have the distribution clout to get the CD into all stores, so overall sales were disappointing. Some fans hailed it as "their best record since the early days of Firefall" and this gave the group a new touring impetus.

Manshel left the group in 1999 to pursue his own career and the band has been a five piece unit ever since. Other than short term fill-ins(Steve Jenks subbed for Hopkins in the spring and summer of 1998 and Gary Jones sat in for Weinmeister for a gig in November 1999 and one for Hopkins in June 2002), Bartley, Weinmeister, Hopkins and Sandy Ficca continue on in Firefall to this day.

In September 2007, Firefall released a brand new CD ''Colorado to Liverpool – A Tribute To The Beatles'' (http://www.firefall.com/beatles_tribute_cd.asp)
And on April 9, 2008, at [[Boulder Theater]] in Boulder, Colorado, there was a Firefall reunion concert that featured the current lineup joined by Mark Andes, David Muse, Larry Burnett and original Firefall studio percussionist Joe Lala. Rick Roberts attended the show as well but was unable to perform with the others due to health issues. As previously mentioned, Michael Clarke had died in 1993.

== Discography ==
LPs:
* ''Firefall'' (1976)
* ''Luna Sea'' (1977)
* ''Elan'' (1978)
* ''Undertow'' (1980)
* ''Clouds Across the Sun'' (1980)
* ''Best of Firefall'' (1981)
* ''Break of Dawn'' (1982)
* ''Mirror of the World'' (1983)
* ''The Greatest Hits'' (1992)
* ''Messenger'' (1994)
* ''Colorado to Liverpool – A Tribute To The Beatles'' (2007)

== BILLBOARD HOT 100 SINGLES ==

#42 - Livin' Ain't Livin' (1976)
#9 - You Are the Woman (1976)
#11 - Just Remember I Love You (1977)
#34 - Cinderella (1977)
#11 - Strange Way (1978)
#48 - So Long (1978)
#43 - Goodbye, I Love You (1979)
#35 - Headed For A Fall (1980)
#50 - Love That Got Away (1980)
#37 - Staying With It (1981)
#59 - Always (1983)

== References ==

http://www.firefall.com/history.asp

== External links ==
*[http://www.davidmuse.com/ David Muse Website - Original Firefall keyboardist/sax]
*[http://www.firefall.com/ Official website]

[[Category:American country rock groups]]
[[Category:American rock music groups]]
[[Category:Atlantic Records artists]]

[[fr:Firefall]]

Firefall

2009-11-02T23:03:00Z

Papphase: see Atlantic discography: http://books.google.com/books?id=VKNHAAAAMAAJ&q=%22dallas+schoo%22&dq=%22dallas+schoo%22

{{Otheruses4|the band|the nightly event in [[Yosemite National Park]]|Yosemite Firefall}}
{{Infobox musical artist 
| Name = Firefall
| Img =
| Img_capt =
| Background = group_or_band
| Origin = [[Boulder, Colorado]]
| Genre = [[Country Rock]], [[rock music|Rock]], [[Pop/Rock]]
| Years_active = 1974 – present
| Label = [[Atlantic Records]]
| Associated_acts =
| URL = [http://www.firefall.com Official site]
| Current_members = [[Jock Bartley]] [[Chris Ball]] [[Steven Weinmeister]] [[Bill Hopkins]] [[Sandy Ficca]]
| Past_members = [[Rick Roberts (musician)|Rick Roberts]] [[Larry Burnett]] [[Mark Andes]] [[Michael Clarke (musician)|Michael Clarke]] [[George Hawkins]] [[Tris Imboden]] [[Kim Stone]] [[David Muse]] [Dallas Schoo]
}}
'''Firefall''' is a [[rock music|rock]] [[Band (music)|band]] that formed in [[Boulder, Colorado]] in 1974. It was founded by [[Rick Roberts (musician)|Rick Roberts]], who had been in [[the Flying Burrito Brothers]], and [[Jock Bartley]], who had been [[Tommy Bolin]]'s replacement in [[Zephyr (band)|Zephyr]]. The band's biggest hit single, "[[You Are the Woman]]", peaked at #9 on the [[Billboard magazine|Billboard chart]]s in 1976. Other hits include "Just Remember I Love You" (#11 in 1977), "Strange Way" (#11 in 1978), and "Staying with It" from 1981, with female vocalist Lisa Nemzo.

== History ==
=== Beginnings ===
In the early 1970s, [[Rick Roberts (musician)|Rick Roberts]] and [[Jock Bartley]] first crossed paths when Bartley was on tour with [[Gram Parsons]] as a member of his backing band The Fallen Angels. Both The Fallen Angels and Roberts were performing in [[New York City]] at the same venue on consecutive nights. Roberts was impressed by Bartley's guitar work. The duo soon began practicing together. Encouraged to form a band, they contacted [[bass guitar|bassist]]-[[singer]] [[Mark Andes]] (a former member of the bands [[Spirit]] and [[Jo Jo Gunne]] who had temporarily retired to the mountains outside of [[Boulder, Colorado]]) and [[Washington D.C.]] [[singer-songwriter|singer-songwriter-guitarist]] Larry Burnett and coaxed them into joining their band, which they christened Firefall in 1974. Roberts got the name from a tradition at [[Yosemite National Park]] in California where a woodpile would be set aflame and slowly pushed off a cliff, the burning logs forming a blazing cascade as they fell.

For the drum chair the group auditioned several local musicians but eventually decided to phone Roberts' former band mate from [[Flying Burrito Brothers]], [[Michael Clarke (musician)|Michael Clarke]], who was most famous for his time spent in the '60s [[folk-rock]] band [[The Byrds]]. Clarke, who had recently relocated to Hawaii, agreed to come aboard.

The band tightened up their act performing in clubs in [[Colorado]] for over a year, mainly in Boulder and [[Aspen, Colorado|Aspen]]. In early 1975 the band recorded a demo tape consisting of three songs produced by [[Chris Hillman]]. They then began taking it around to major labels, but were unsuccessful at first.

=== Breakthrough and Success ===

In 1975 Bartley, Andes and Roberts were brought into Chris Hillman's band. Before a scheduled performance at The Other End in New York, Hillman took ill and was unable to play the show or finish the tour. Burnett and Clarke were then flown in to complete the commitments. Atlantic A&R representatives (who had already heard the band's demo tape) saw the Other End show and quickly signed the band to a multi-album contract. Work on their first album began in late 1975.

Just before the debut album's recording sessions at [[Criteria Studios]] in [[Miami]], they brought in Roberts' high school friend from [[Bradenton, Florida]], David Muse. Muse was a multi-instrumentalist who played the [[saxophone]], [[flute]], [[harmonica]] and [[keyboards]]. [[Jim Mason (producer)|Jim Mason]], who had worked with [[Poco]] in the past, was producer.

The album was recorded in one month and the result, the self-titled ''Firefall'', released in May 1976, became Atlantic Records quickest album to reach Gold status. The group's first single, "Livin' Ain't Livin' ", stopped just short of the Top 40. In the following months the band toured with [[Leon Russell|Leon]] and [[Mary Russell]], [[the Doobie Brothers]] and [[The Band]].

The band's next single "[[You Are the Woman]]", hit the Top 10 and the band began touring with [[Fleetwood Mac]], who were at the beginning of their commercial peak. Their next single, "Cinderella", though it reached the Top 40 and was played extensively on FM radio, did not fare as well on AM radio because of its controversial lyrics which caused feminist groups to pressure the stations to avoid playing it. However, this did not have a lasting effect on the band's sales.

The group then headed back to Criteria Studios to record their second album, which was to be titled ''Tropical Nights''. They were joined by Cuban percussionist [[Joe Lala]](ex-[[Manassas]]) and the [[Memphis Horns]]. But after hearing the final mix, Atlantic Records decided that the album needed to be reworked. Firefall then went back on tour, redid several songs and added some new ones. The album was renamed ''Luna Sea'' and released in July 1977. The revamped LP peaked at #27 on the charts and went Gold less than two months after release. The single from the album "Just Remember I Love You", featuring backing vocals by future [[Eagles|Eagle]] [[Timothy B. Schmit]], reached the Top 10.

It was around this time that tensions were beginning to rise within the group, stemming from non-stop touring and management problems, not to mention frequent alcohol and drug abuse. At this time the group was also incredibly popular and playing to sold-out crowds with Fleetwood Mac as part of their ''[[Rumours]]'' tour. But this only delayed their disintegration for a short time.

In 1978, the band brought in producer [[Tom Dowd]], who had worked with [[the Allman Brothers Band]] and [[Eric Clapton]] , among many others, to produce their third album ''Elan'', recording some at Criteria and some at L.A.'s [[Record Plant]]. The band and Dowd got along well personally but they had conflicting musical visions. The differences were apparently noticeable enough that the band's new management pressured the record label into letting the band rework the album. This put the band in debt with the label, and within the year they parted ways with their new management. The production team of [[Ron Albert|Ron]] and [[Howard Albert]] were brought in to finish the record. Luckily, ''Elan'', released in October 1978, was a massive success, and it became their first album to reach Platinum status. The hit single "Strange Way" continued the band's commercial hot streak.

=== Decline ===
After two years of non-stop recording and touring, the band seemed burnt out. Several band members were not on speaking terms with each other and their financial situation was less than perfect.

Despite this, Atlantic Records still expected a new album. The band recorded the album sporadically over a year. The Alberts were again brought in to produce the album, but the band once again required a second effort, which was produced by [[Kyle Lehning]]. The result, entitled ''[[Undertow (Firefall album)|Undertow]]'', was released in March 1980. This would be the last album with the original lineup. During a 1980 tour of Japan, Michael Clarke, due to his binge drinking, missed gigs or showed up in no condition to play. The band resorted to hiring a German drummer, Dan Holsten, whose playing technique was similar to Clarke's, to sit in. Holsten, who even looked a lot like Clarke, had played in several other bands in the Colorado area and caught the eye of Jock and Larry one night at a Colorado Springs bar. He became known as a 'reliable' back up drummer for tours and some studio work. Upon completion of the tour, Clarke and Mark Andes both left the band. Clarke later died of alcoholism at his Treasure Island home in Florida in December 1993.

They were later permanently replaced by [[Kenny Loggins]]' former rhythm section, consisting of bassist [[George Hawkins]] and drummer [[Tris Imboden]]. With the two new players, the band recorded ''[[Clouds Across the Sun]]'', which was released in December 1980 and spawned the early 1981 hit "Staying With It", which was done as a duet with singer Lisa Nemzo. After only a few television appearances, Hawkins resigned from the group to join up with [[Mick Fleetwood's Zoo]] , a side project the Fleetwood Mac drummer was recording in Africa. Hawkins was replaced by Kim Stone. Everything seemed to be on track until Larry Burnett suddenly disappeared from the group while on tour in April 1981 to return home, citing ill health as his reason (Burnett eventually kicked a serious drug habit and is now pursuing a solo career). After playing a concert with the band in Hawaii not long afterwards, Rick Roberts announced that he also was leaving for a solo career. With the band lacking personnel and increasing financial debt, Atlantic records dropped Firefall from their roster in 1981 and released ''Best of Firefall'' at the close of that year.

=== Resumption and Later Work ===
Upset with the way things had turned out, Jock Bartley decided to put together a new lineup in early 1982.
At Ron Albert's suggestion, Jock got together with two Miami based musicians, John Sambataro and Chuck Kirkpatrick.
Sambataro was a singer/guitarist/keyboardist/bassist/songwriter who'd sung on record with [[Stephen Stills]], [[Eric Clapton]], [[Dave Mason]], [[McGuinn, Clark & Hillman]], the members of the [[Bee Gees]] and many others. John and Jock had actually met back in 1978 when they both played on the Criteria sessions for [[Andy Gibb]]'s Platinum album, ''Shadow Dancing''. Kirkpatrick was a singer/guitarist/keyboardist who'd sung with John on a number of the aforementioned sessions and had worked as an engineer at Criteria on such albums as [[Derek & The Dominos]]' ''Layla''. Albert then brought in Alan Jacobi, a Miami entertainment lawyer who had a relationship with Atlantic and Jacobi convinced the label to help fund Firefall's rekindling. Atlantic sprang for some new demos which led to a new album deal, and in the spring of 1982, Criteria sessions for the ''Break of Dawn'' LP began with Ron and brother Howard producing once again. Backing Bartley, Sambataro and Kirkpatrick were a number of Miami session players, with Stephen Stills and Rick Roberts making guest appearances. The album appeared in September 1982 and Jock, John and Chuck began auditioning additional players for a followup tour. Chuck's brother Scott(a top notch session drummer who, like John, had also played on record and toured with McGuinn, Clark & Hillman) and Colorado bassist Greg Overton were chosen and, at the last minute, David Muse decided to rejoin the band.

In the winter of 1983, Firefall set out across the U.S. to promote ''Break of Dawn''. Unfortunately, the single from it, "Always," failed to reach the Top 40 and quickly fell off the charts.

''Mirror of the World'' followed in the fall of 1983, the title track a comment on the effects of TV violence on children. The album had a much harder edge than its predecessors, which many radio programmers thought reflected too great a departure from the classic Firefall sound. Though the first single, the rocking "Runaway Love", written by Bartley, Sambataro and Paul Crosta, briefly appeared in a video on MTV and received limited radio airplay, this album too failed to attract sales and quickly disappeared.

The group, once again dropped by Atlantic, nevertheless continued to tour, headlining in smaller clubs and opening in larger venues for groups like the [[Beach Boys]], [[Little River Band]] and [[Bob Seger & the Silver Bullet Band]]. In 1983 Overton quit(he would return briefly to play a few shows in 1986 as a fill-in) and Muse decided to retire from touring again. Steve Hadjoupolos(woodwinds, keyboards, backing vocals) and Bob Gaffney(bass, vocals) were brought in and the group soldiered on. Sandy Ficca replaced Scott Kirkpatrick on drums in 1984 and is still with them to date.

On the evening of August 4, 1986, Chuck Kirkpatrick was leaving from a local club gig in the area of Florida where he resided. After breaking down on the road home, he was shot and wounded in the arm by a freak passerby in a car who then fled the scene. The wound was serious enough to almost require amputation of Chuck's left arm, but thankfully, doctors were able to save it and Chuck was able to play again after a very difficult rehab period. Many Miami musicians, including [[Jon Secada]] and members of the [[Miami Sound Machine]], came to Chuck's aid playing a series of shows to help defray the cost of Chuck's medical care and rehab. Firefall brought in Colorado musician Mark Oblinger to sit in for Chuck until he was able to return to the band in November 1986. But Kirkpatrick's tenure in the band was coming to an end. In late 1987 Gaffney left and Eddie Gleason came in in the interim. Then Chuck left at the tail end of 1987 after differences with Jock Bartley. Oblinger(who'd subbed for both Chuck and Gaffney in 1986) returned as Kirkpatrick's permanent replacement in December 1987 and Bil Hopkins was the new bassist. Dan Clawson(ex-[[Pure Prairie League]]) came in
as well to take the place of Hadjoupolos in early 1988.

In 1989, after seven years in Firefall, Sambataro decided it was also time to say goodbye. Surprisingly, this paved the way for the return of Rick Roberts and in September 1992 Rhino Records responded to the demand to put out Firefall music on CD by releasing ''Firefall: The Greatest Hits'' which featured all of the singles and AOR favorites and one new song, "Run Run Away," about adult victims of earlier child abuse.

In the early 90s the personnel shuffles continued. Oblinger left in late 1992 to be replaced by Bruce Crichton, who turned it over to Steve Manshel in June 1993. Roberts, who was suffering from health problems, left as well with Steven Weinmeister coming on board in May 1993. After Dan Clawson left that same year there were several people to occupy the woodwind/keyboards chair, including Bray Ghiglia(1993-1994), the returning David Muse(1994-1995; 2000-2003), Jim Waddell(1993; 1995-96; 1998-2000; 2003) and Bob Fisher(1996-1998; 2007). Chris Ball has been the band's regular sax/flute/keys player since 2003.

While touring in 1993 Firefall encountered the terrible [[Flood of 1993]]. One of their gigs was canceled and a few had to be moved to higher ground. In response Jock wrote "When The River Rises", a song with an upbeat message of finding strength in adversity. The band recorded the song in [[Colorado Springs]] at Startsong Recording Studio, with engineer/programmer, Tom Gregor, co-producing with Bartley. "When The River Rises" was then brought back to St. Louis and played on the radio for the first time. At that point, the flood waters had still not crested. Vowing to donate a large portion of the publishing to Flood Relief, the song was sent to other radio stations in the flooded areas. It received heavy regional airplay and was also used by [[CNN]] and other TV stations behind coverage of the disaster.

With the band's profile raised, the search for a new record deal began. Some smaller companies showed interest. They decided to go with a Colorado independent label, Redstone Records, who'd had some successes in the smooth jazz genre. ''Messenger'' was recorded in Denver and Boulder and was released in September 1994. Bartley had been stock piling songs for ten years for just this opportunity. Along with the hard edged "When The River Rises" and "Secret," his songs "Love Find A Way," "Very First Moment" (co-written with Rick Roberts) and "Who Ran Away" gave the album a familiar but updated Firefall sound. Bil Hopkins' song, "Say It's Over" (written with Mark Oblinger) and Steve Manshel's powerful "Innocent Victim" also appeared on the CD. Mark Andes and [[Richie Furay]] made guest appearances on the album and Jim Mason returned to the producer's chair. ''Messenger'' was much more diverse than anything the band had released to date with the usual love songs and ballads, but there were also songs about child abuse, environmental catastrophe and even sexual abuse/rape in the chilling "No Means No". The first single, "Love Find A Way," received some minor play on some stations, but Redstone didn't have the distribution clout to get the CD into all stores, so overall sales were disappointing. Some fans hailed it as "their best record since the early days of Firefall" and this gave the group a new touring impetus.

Manshel left the group in 1999 to pursue his own career and the band has been a five piece unit ever since. Other than short term fill-ins(Steve Jenks subbed for Hopkins in the spring and summer of 1998 and Gary Jones sat in for Weinmeister for a gig in November 1999 and one for Hopkins in June 2002), Bartley, Weinmeister, Hopkins and Sandy Ficca continue on in Firefall to this day.

In September 2007, Firefall released a brand new CD ''Colorado to Liverpool – A Tribute To The Beatles'' (http://www.firefall.com/beatles_tribute_cd.asp)
And on April 9, 2008, at [[Boulder Theater]] in Boulder, Colorado, there was a Firefall reunion concert that featured the current lineup joined by Mark Andes, David Muse, Larry Burnett and original Firefall studio percussionist Joe Lala. Rick Roberts attended the show as well but was unable to perform with the others due to health issues. As previously mentioned, Michael Clarke had died in 1993.

== Discography ==
LPs:
* ''Firefall'' (1976)
* ''Luna Sea'' (1977)
* ''Elan'' (1978)
* ''Undertow'' (1980)
* ''Clouds Across the Sun'' (1980)
* ''Best of Firefall'' (1981)
* ''Break of Dawn'' (1982)
* ''Mirror of the World'' (1983)
* ''The Greatest Hits'' (1992)
* ''Messenger'' (1994)
* ''Colorado to Liverpool – A Tribute To The Beatles'' (2007)

== BILLBOARD HOT 100 SINGLES ==

#42 - Livin' Ain't Livin' (1976)
#9 - You Are the Woman (1976)
#11 - Just Remember I Love You (1977)
#34 - Cinderella (1977)
#11 - Strange Way (1978)
#48 - So Long (1978)
#43 - Goodbye, I Love You (1979)
#35 - Headed For A Fall (1980)
#50 - Love That Got Away (1980)
#37 - Staying With It (1981)
#59 - Always (1983)

== References ==

http://www.firefall.com/history.asp

== External links ==
*[http://www.davidmuse.com/ David Muse Website - Original Firefall keyboardist/sax]
*[http://www.firefall.com/ Official website]

[[Category:American country rock groups]]
[[Category:American rock music groups]]
[[Category:Atlantic Records artists]]

[[fr:Firefall]]

Bodo Sperling

2009-08-10T19:29:52Z

Papphase: no categories on user sites

{{autobiography|date=July 2009}}
{{refimproveBLP|date=July 2009}}
Bodo Sperling (* May 6, 1952 in Hanau, Germany) is a German [[artist]], painter and [[inventor]].

==Live==
Sperling earned his first money by selling his paintings on the streets and in the clubs of Amsterdam.
Artistic influential was his almost daily presence in the [[Paradiso (Amsterdam)]], in the Sperling came together with artists from all over the world.
Among the artistic works Sperling is the development of scientific models and translating them into objects. He developed in 1985 the art direction of Objectivism.

Bodo Sperling is recognized as one of the four co-founder of the East Side Gallery in March 1990. <ref>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/19/berlin-wall-freedom-painters</ref> <ref>http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1472646.php/Artists_boycott_Berlin_Wall_art_project_</ref>
<ref>http://www.art-magazin.de/szene/17235/mauerkunst_berlin</ref>
Among other artistic work includes the development sparrow Since 1985 Bodo Sperling uses computers as a design tool. Two of his paintings are to see in [[Center for Art and Media]].<ref>[http://on1.zkm.de/zkm/artists/Sperling Information zu Bodo Sperling bei ZKM]</ref>

One of his other artistic works is the development of scientific models and translating them into objects. With this way of working, he as a representative of contemporary art is not alone.<ref>http://www.carstennicolai.de</ref><ref>http://rutusblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/objectivism-and-art.html</ref>
Quote Sperling: ''I develop from the perspective of function and aesthetics of the Natural Sciences and models usable applications (the idea of the inverted design sense)''. Sperling 1992 installed on the 1st Total German artist Congress in Potsdam, a five-meter high mobile, which, illuminated by slides, the impression of a constantly changing 3D film produced. From 1980 the first pictures emerged from crystals and crystal panels. Sperling describes his artistic work as objectivism. <ref>http://objektivisten.wordpress.com/objektivismus/asthetik/</ref>

==References==
* http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j1ORGQ5dXCQakpRnJs1zlJjgt5oQ
* VG Bild-Kunst, US 173012 15. Februar 1985, Author art direction "Objektivism"
* art – Das Kunstmagazin, Date 7. April 2009
* TAZ, Date 10. Mai 2009
* Mannheimer Morgen, 31. Mai 1990 / "Objektivismus" - Kunst und Philosophie ("Objectivism" - art and philosophy)
<references/>

==Bibliography==
* [[Thomas Metzinger]]: „The Artistic Work Bodo Sperling“, in: Transparency of consciousness (Transparenz des Bewusstseins), September/Oktober 1997 (Catalog)

== Literature ==
* [[Thomas Metzinger]]:''The Artistic Work Bodo Sperling'', in:''transparency''of consciousness, Digital Art Museum, Frankfurt 1997 (catalog)
*''Hessiale `94, National Art Exhibition''Kassel, ISBN 3-9804024-0-1 (catalog)
* Zylvia Auerbach (ed.):''The Distance''within Pleasures, Sydney 1990, ISBN 0-646-01536-2 (catalog)
*''Art contacts Germany, Austria, Switzerland, 1992-93'', type address-Verlag, Frankfurt 1991
* Ernest Kay (ed.):''Who's Who in Western Europe''. International Biographical Center, Cambridge 1981, ISBN 978-0-900332-61-6.

==Weblinks==
* [http://www.sperling-art.com/home.html Official Website of Bodo Sperling]
* [http://www.videor-art-foundation.com/_de/ausstellungen/1997_sperling.html Official Gallery of Bodo Sperling]
* [http://on1.zkm.de/zkm/stories/storyReader$3891 Official Museum presence of Bodo Sperling]

User talk:CecilWard

2009-08-07T18:10:07Z

Papphase: /* "Far Right" */

==Welcome==
Hello '''{{PAGENAME}}''', and [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia. Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/{{PAGENAME}}|your contributions]]. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
*[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The Five Pillars of Wikipedia]]
*[[Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]]
*[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Editing tutorial]]
*[[Wikipedia:Picture tutorial|Picture tutorial]]
*[[Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]]
*[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Naming conventions]]
*[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]]
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the [[Wikipedia:Help|help pages]], add a question to the [[Wikipedia:village pump|village pump]] or ask me on  my talk page. Again, welcome! --[[User:Angr|Angr]]/[[User_talk:Angr|{{IPA|tɔk tə mi}}]] 12:50, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

== Restructuring [[Cross-site scripting]] ==

Hello. I noticed you added {{[[Template:cleanup-restructure|cleanup-restructure]]}} to [[Cross-site scripting]] but didn't mention any problems on the talk page. [[User:TDM]] is willing to work on the article, if you could say what you saw wrong with the article at [[Talk:Cross-site scripting#Restructuring]]. Thanks. ~[[User:Mdd4696 |MDD]][[User talk:Mdd4696 |46]][[Special:Contributions/Mdd4696 |96]] 00:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

==An Automated Message from [[User:HagermanBot|HagermanBot]]==

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to [[Wikipedia:Talk page|talk pages]] and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your posts]] by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button [[Image:Button sig2.png]] located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! [[User:HagermanBot|HagermanBot]] 13:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
==Apology==
Dear Cecil,
Please accept my apology for my recent comment on the lines you wrote re Primitive Irish.
Believe it or not I wrote my reply in jest and had no wish to cause offence.
[[User:Lughlamhfhada|Lughlamhfhada]] 10:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

== Request for help ==
{{tlp|helpme}}
I was wondering if there's a way to advertise to recruit editors to help improve an article, since I'm completely ignorant about wiki markup and am trying to improve my contributions to [[ADSL Max]] yet have no idea how to add detailed citations properly.[[User:CecilWard|CecilWard]] ([[User talk:CecilWard#top|talk]]) 13:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
:You can post a request at [[Wikipedia:Requests for feedback]]. It is a page where users can request comments and constructive criticism on articles they are editing. If you have a specific question on how to use Wikipedia, you can either continue to use the {{tlp|helpme}} tag or ask your question at [[Wikipedia:Help desk]]. Please let me know if I can help in any other way. Thanks! --[[User:Mysdaao|Mysdaao]] [[User talk:Mysdaao|talk]] 13:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

==What's the best way to add a See Also or Further Reading section==
It sounds like what you want to add is an '''external link'''. Place ==External link== as a heading and then place links under it. Each on a seperate line, beginning with a * (for bulleting). The link goes in square brackets <nowiki>[ ]</nowiki> and should begin with http:// you can put a comment by putting it in the square brackets after the link, seperated by at least oen space. Please let me know if any of this is unclear. [[User:RJFJR|RJFJR]] ([[User talk:RJFJR|talk]]) 17:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
:(I just checked and that question was from June, not July, of this year, so you may already have figured this out.) [[User:RJFJR|RJFJR]] ([[User talk:RJFJR|talk]]) 17:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

== "Far Right" ==

Its sort of a catch-all phrase, that basically refers to anyone more than just a little bit to the right of the mainstream of the [[Republican Party (US)|Republican Party]]. Of course, its sometimes difficult to map these things out, since I don't consider support for a seemingly endless series of wars in the Middle East, for example, to constitute a conservative/rightist position. [[Patrick Buchanan]] and [[paleoconservatism]] would be good starting points for what constitutes the far right in my view, although the term would of course also include various folks of a more extreme orientation ie., the [[British National Party]], outright fascists & neo-Nazis, etc.

These links may also be of interest:

http://wikipediafollies.blogspot.com/

http://amren.com/features/200807wikipedia.html

Although I don't share the pessimism of Mr. Stix. Despite many frustrating experiences, I don't consider Wikipedia to be a lost cause. I do think a pervasive, liberal-left bias has been widely substituted by the Admins (in many cases, without even being aware they are doing it, although I suspect ''some'' are quite insincerely functioning as activists intending to squelch ideas they dislike) for a [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]], with respect to articles which pertain to controversial social issues of the day. [[User:KevinOKeeffe|KevinOKeeffe]] ([[User talk:KevinOKeeffe|talk]]) 15:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

::Kevin, you mean "outright fascists & neo-Nazis" like people wo would say something like: ''"Yeah, I am calling about the, uh, shooting event down there in, uh, Los Angeles, I just want to say I think it's an outstanding event, and the only, uh, disadvantage to it is that the five miserable kikes survived, and hopefully, uh, soon we'll be upgrading our weaponry from, uh, rifles to nuclear warheads so we can (inaudible), so we can target places like Tel Aviv and Haifa, and perhaps even New York. But until, uh, that wonderful day arrives, we'll have to settle with these, uh, more minor forays. Heil Hitler."'' Yes, Kevin, I'm quoting YOU or rather [http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail5466/Page1.htm the sentence against you] for making death threat calls against the Jewish Centre in Palo Alto. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 18:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

User talk:CecilWard

2009-08-07T18:09:36Z

Papphase: /* "Far Right" */

==Welcome==
Hello '''{{PAGENAME}}''', and [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|welcome]] to Wikipedia. Thank you for [[Special:Contributions/{{PAGENAME}}|your contributions]]. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
*[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|The Five Pillars of Wikipedia]]
*[[Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]]
*[[Wikipedia:Tutorial|Editing tutorial]]
*[[Wikipedia:Picture tutorial|Picture tutorial]]
*[[Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]]
*[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Naming conventions]]
*[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]]
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the [[Wikipedia:Help|help pages]], add a question to the [[Wikipedia:village pump|village pump]] or ask me on  my talk page. Again, welcome! --[[User:Angr|Angr]]/[[User_talk:Angr|{{IPA|tɔk tə mi}}]] 12:50, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

== Restructuring [[Cross-site scripting]] ==

Hello. I noticed you added {{[[Template:cleanup-restructure|cleanup-restructure]]}} to [[Cross-site scripting]] but didn't mention any problems on the talk page. [[User:TDM]] is willing to work on the article, if you could say what you saw wrong with the article at [[Talk:Cross-site scripting#Restructuring]]. Thanks. ~[[User:Mdd4696 |MDD]][[User talk:Mdd4696 |46]][[Special:Contributions/Mdd4696 |96]] 00:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

==An Automated Message from [[User:HagermanBot|HagermanBot]]==

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to [[Wikipedia:Talk page|talk pages]] and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your posts]] by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button [[Image:Button sig2.png]] located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! [[User:HagermanBot|HagermanBot]] 13:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
==Apology==
Dear Cecil,
Please accept my apology for my recent comment on the lines you wrote re Primitive Irish.
Believe it or not I wrote my reply in jest and had no wish to cause offence.
[[User:Lughlamhfhada|Lughlamhfhada]] 10:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

== Request for help ==
{{tlp|helpme}}
I was wondering if there's a way to advertise to recruit editors to help improve an article, since I'm completely ignorant about wiki markup and am trying to improve my contributions to [[ADSL Max]] yet have no idea how to add detailed citations properly.[[User:CecilWard|CecilWard]] ([[User talk:CecilWard#top|talk]]) 13:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
:You can post a request at [[Wikipedia:Requests for feedback]]. It is a page where users can request comments and constructive criticism on articles they are editing. If you have a specific question on how to use Wikipedia, you can either continue to use the {{tlp|helpme}} tag or ask your question at [[Wikipedia:Help desk]]. Please let me know if I can help in any other way. Thanks! --[[User:Mysdaao|Mysdaao]] [[User talk:Mysdaao|talk]] 13:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

==What's the best way to add a See Also or Further Reading section==
It sounds like what you want to add is an '''external link'''. Place ==External link== as a heading and then place links under it. Each on a seperate line, beginning with a * (for bulleting). The link goes in square brackets <nowiki>[ ]</nowiki> and should begin with http:// you can put a comment by putting it in the square brackets after the link, seperated by at least oen space. Please let me know if any of this is unclear. [[User:RJFJR|RJFJR]] ([[User talk:RJFJR|talk]]) 17:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
:(I just checked and that question was from June, not July, of this year, so you may already have figured this out.) [[User:RJFJR|RJFJR]] ([[User talk:RJFJR|talk]]) 17:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

== "Far Right" ==

Its sort of a catch-all phrase, that basically refers to anyone more than just a little bit to the right of the mainstream of the [[Republican Party (US)|Republican Party]]. Of course, its sometimes difficult to map these things out, since I don't consider support for a seemingly endless series of wars in the Middle East, for example, to constitute a conservative/rightist position. [[Patrick Buchanan]] and [[paleoconservatism]] would be good starting points for what constitutes the far right in my view, although the term would of course also include various folks of a more extreme orientation ie., the [[British National Party]], outright fascists & neo-Nazis, etc.

These links may also be of interest:

http://wikipediafollies.blogspot.com/

http://amren.com/features/200807wikipedia.html

Although I don't share the pessimism of Mr. Stix. Despite many frustrating experiences, I don't consider Wikipedia to be a lost cause. I do think a pervasive, liberal-left bias has been widely substituted by the Admins (in many cases, without even being aware they are doing it, although I suspect ''some'' are quite insincerely functioning as activists intending to squelch ideas they dislike) for a [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]], with respect to articles which pertain to controversial social issues of the day. [[User:KevinOKeeffe|KevinOKeeffe]] ([[User talk:KevinOKeeffe|talk]]) 15:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

::Kevin, you mean "outright fascists & neo-Nazis" like people wo would say something like: ''"Yeah, I am calling about the, uh, shooting event down there in, uh, Los Angeles, I just want to say I think it's an outstanding event, and the only, uh, disadvantage to it is that the five miserable kikes survived, and hopefully, uh, soon we'll be upgrading our weaponry from, uh, rifles to nuclear warheads so we can (inaudible), so we can target places like Tel Aviv and Haifa, and perhaps even New York. But until, uh, that wonderful day arrives, we'll have to settle with these, uh, more minor forays. Heil Hitler.". Yes, Kevin, I'm quoting YOU or rather [http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail5466/Page1.htm the sentence against you] for making death threat calls against the Jewish Centre in Palo Alto. --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 18:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Benson (fish)

2009-08-05T14:45:33Z

Papphase: de:wiki

'''Benson''' (1984 – July 2009)<ref name="Times">{{cite web|url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article6737929.ece|title=Angling world in mourning for Benson the celebrity carp|last=Low|first=Valentine|date=4 August 2009|publisher=timesonline.co.uk|accessdate=4 August 2009}}</ref> was "Britain's biggest and best-loved" [[common carp]].<ref name="BBC">{{cite web|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8182000/8182827.stm|title=Death of 'the people's fish'|date=4 August 2009|publisher=bbc.co.uk|accessdate=4 August 2009}}</ref> Benson's popularity was such that she was caught 63 times in 13 years, although the accessibility that made her popular was also the cause of controversy among [[angling]]'s elite.

The fish, who was female, was originally one of a pair: her original companion, Hedges, disappeared in a flood of the [[River Nene]] in 1998. Both fish were named due to a hole in Benson's [[dorsal fin]] that resembled a cigarette burn, in a reference to [[Benson and Hedges]].

Benson died in 2009, aged 25. At the time of her death, she weighed the same as a large dog and was worth [[Pound sterling|£]]20,000. The owner of the lake where she lived alleged that she was accidentally poisoned by anglers using uncooked nuts.

==Fame==
By the time of the fish's death, she weighed 29 kilograms (64 lb), making her a popular catch – she was "caught 63 times in her 13-year career".<ref name="BBC"/> "She was also very popular: in 2005 readers of ''[[Angler's Mail]]'' voted her Britain's Favourite Carp."<ref name="Times"/>

Living in the [[Bluebell Lakes]] complex in [[Cambridgeshire]], England, the fish got her name from a "hole the shape of a cigarette burn in her dorsal fin",<ref name="Times"/> a reference to Benson and Hedges. Her original companion, Hedges, "disappeared down the River Nene in the flood of 1998."<ref name="Times"/>

While alive, the fish, which weighed more than a large dog, was worth [[£]]20,000.<ref name="Telegraph">{{cite web|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5968135/Britains-biggest-common-carp-is-poisoned.html|title=Britain's biggest common carp is 'poisoned'|date=4 August 2009|publisher=telegraph.co.uk|accessdate=4 August 2009}}</ref>

[[Steve Broad]], editor of ''[[UK Carp]]'' magazine, ascribed Benson's fame to "her accessibility":<ref name="Broad">{{cite web|url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article6737796.ece/|title=Benson the carp was near the top of angling's household names|last=Broad|first=Steve|date=4 August 2009|publisher=timesonline.co.uk|accessdate=4 August 2009}}</ref>

<blockquote>Among keen anglers there are about only 20 carp that can be seriously called “household names”. Benson was near the top of that league. The thing that made Benson famous was her accessibility. Unlike other big carp, she was a day-ticket fish — anyone could go along and try to catch her.</blockquote>

However, this very accessibility made the fish controversial among the sport's elite: "Everyday anglers loved her because there was a chance they could have their photo taken with one of the big fish ... some serious anglers did not like her because she was open to everyone."<ref name="Broad"/>

Benson's record of being caught so often masks her unpredictability. "There was a period when Benson was caught every Monday for six weeks. Then it seemed that she disappeared for the next 12 months."<ref name="Broad"/>

==Death==
The [[Daily Telegraph]] reported that the fish had been "poisoned":
<blockquote>A quantity of uncooked nuts, which are toxic to fish who swell up because they cannot process them, were found nearby on the bank. Owner of Bluebell Lakes Tony Bridgefoot, 53, said he feared the fish had been killed by "irresponsible anglers" ... "It seems his ''[sic]'' demise was caused by the introduction of foods that are harmful to fish."<ref name="Telegraph"/></blockquote>

Benson's successor as a popular and very large common carp may not live too far away from the fish's former haunt. "The same complex where Benson lived boasts a lot of promising 40lb fish. There’s one — the Z-Fish — that is ounces under 50lb and still growing."<ref name="Broad"/>

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:1984 animal births]]
[[Category:2009 animal deaths]]
[[Category:Famous fish]]

[[de:Benson (Karpfen)]]

Martin Hohmann

2009-07-15T08:34:08Z

Papphase: decision of berlin court regarding the legitimacy of hohmann's expplusion by the CDU

'''Martin Hohmann''' (born [[February 4]], [[1948]]) is a [[Germany|German]] lawyer and [[politician]] without party affiliation. He was a member of the German Parliament ("[[Bundestag]]") for the centre-right [[Christian Democratic Union]] (CDU), from 1998 until 2005.

==Speech on German Unity Day 2003==
He attracted public attention with a speech on [[German Unity Day]] on October 3, 2003. He set out to repudiate the supposed accusation of the Germans being a "nation of perpetrators" (''"Tätervolk"'') during the [[Holocaust]]. To his end, he elaborated at length on the involvement of [[Jew]]s in the violent 1917 [[October Revolution|Russian Revolution]].

Hohmann starts from noting a strong sense of self-contempt among Germans and quotes Hans-Olaf Henkel, the vice president of the Federation of German Industry, who has stated that "Our original sin paralyzes the country". Hohmann thinks that an undue occupation with Germany's past - which he distinguishes from a necessary admission and remembrance of German crimes - lies behind discrimination against fellow-countrymen. Among examples, he mentions the refusal of German government officials to consider demanding compensations by Russia, Poland and the Czech Republic on behalf of forced German labourers in [[World War II]], in the same way as Germany pays compensation for those they forced to labor camps.

He notes that, while the notion of [[collective guilt]] is usually denied, it is very much applied to Germans. Other nations tend to white-wash their history, like the French who hail the bloody [[French revolution]] as some kind of emancipation and the imperialist dictator [[Napoleon]] as a benevolent father of the people. The Germans, on the other hand are depicted in black and white as perpetrators and their enemies as innocent lambs. He vehemently denies the thesis of [[Daniel Goldhagen]] about a general German complicity in [[Hitler]]'s politics.

To illustrate his point, that this treatment of Germans is absurd, he draws a parallel with Jews, who, he argues with painstaking submission of evidence, have, to a remarkable extent taken part in communist activities, such as the Russian revolution. Hohmann states: "Thus one could describe Jews with some justification as a nation of perpetrators...Judged by these facts, it would feel justified to call the Jews a people of 'perpetrators'." His conclusion is: "That may sound terrible. But it would still follow the same logic, as the one used to call the Germans a people of perpetrators." To make it clear that the judgement follows only if you accept the premises he is out for demolishing, he explains that "neither the Germans nor the Jews can be termed a nation of perpetrators".

Hohmann goes on to note that the Jews who participated in revolutionary activities where such who had been alienated from their religion and heritage - a trait, he observes, they shared with [[national socialism|national socialists]]. The target of his speech, hence, is [[secularisation]]. "Because of that neither 'Germans', nor 'Jews' are a people of perpetrators. It can be said with every justification, though, that: The Godless, with their godless ideologies were the perpetrators of this last, bloody, Century."

==Accusations of antisemitism==
The speech was widely held to be [[anti-semitic]], or at least to support anti-semitic sentiment. The main reasons for this assessment were the following:

* His argument, that Jews, from certain premisses, which he dismisses, are a people of perpetrators, insinuates, some felt, intended or not, that they ''are'' indeed one. In spite of his statement towards the end of the speech that "neither the Germans nor the Jews can be termed a nation of perpetrators", the speech was commonly regarded as insufficiently clear in articulating this standpoint to countervail other impressions among the listeners.
* Hohmann constructs a coherent group of "The Jews" and their responsibility for the violence during the [[Russian Revolution (1917)|Russian Revolution]]. This ignores, firstly, that the people referred to did not act, as the Germans did, in the name of a people, but for the sake of the [[Communism|Communist idea]]. Secondly, the small size of the Jewish population made people of Jewish origin, in spite if their overrepresentation, form only a small part of the revolutionaries and they were well represented in anti-Communist parties, too{{Fact|date=January 2009}}, while the Holocaust was in organisation and in execution a specifically German endeavour.
* Hohmann opens his section on Jewish participation in revolutionary activities by referring to a classic anti-semitic pamphlet by [[Henry Ford]], ''[[The International Jew]]'', where the author purports to document that Jews "to a great extent" where "revolutionaries", although, according to Hohmann, "in a very generalizing way". He asks himself: "How did Ford reach his conclusions that in our ears come close to Nazi propaganda?" Now, this pamphlet in turn is based in large parts on ''[[The Protocols of the Elders of Zion]]'', a forgery with the sole goal of denouncing Jews. Hohmann, however, does not rely on forgeries, and criticism has tended to avoid his factual claims. But the mention of the infamous pamphlet awoke suspicions.
* Hohmann is widely regarded as playing down the guilt of Germans for the Holocaust during the [[Nazi era]]. Some feel that he by bringing [[Jewish Bolshevism|involvement in communism by Jews]] to the light makes impertinent accusations against the victims themselves.

==Political consequences==
The speech was delivered to 120 people in his constituency on October 3. It attracted no attention until it was later found on the internet. This led to a lively debate in public and in the CDU, and after Hohmann refused to retract the speech, he was expelled from the [[parliamentary group]] of the CDU in the [[Bundestag]] in 2003 and from the party itself in 2004. The former decision, however, came only after almost two weeks, on November 15, raising some concerns that the party did not share the zeal of his critics.<ref name=raus>"Raus" ''Economist'' 11/15/2003.</ref> CDU MPs voted 195 to 28 (16 abstained) to eject him from the party group, that is 81 percent favored ejection. According to ''The Independent'', support for free speech was far higher than expected.<ref name=independent>Tony Paterson: [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-politician-expelled-in-storm-over-jewish-speech-735792.html German politician expelled in storm over Jewish speech]''The Independent'' November 15, 2003.</ref> Hohmann appealed the party decision in court, but his expulsion was upheld. The Kammergericht Berlin ruled that the accusation that Hohmann "supported antisemitic tendencies as his own or in any case facilitated them in parts of the audience by providing facts for such appraisal" was in line with the core statements of the speech.<ref>[http://www.gerichtsentscheidungen.berlin-brandenburg.de/jportal/portal/t/x57/bs/10/page/sammlung.psml;jsessionid=9AF8BC30D3D76878528FE1B05AC38DC0.jp95?pid=Dokumentanzeige&showdoccase=1&js_peid=Trefferliste&documentnumber=1&numberofresults=1&fromdoctodoc=yes&doc.id=KORE406382007&doc.part=L&doc.price=0.0#rd_20name=independent Decision 3 U 47/05], KG Berlin 3. Zivilsenat, 27.10.2006 (German)</ref>

While most of the German elite was unanimous in condemning Hohmann,<ref name=raus /> the public was much less convinced - polls indicated that equally many opposed the expulsion as those who approved of it (a little over 40 percent in each camp).<ref name=NYT>Richard Bernstein: [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEEDC1238F936A25752C1A9659C8B63 German Legislator Is Ousted for Slur on Jews] ''New York Times'' November 15, 2003.</ref> Although party spokesmen were quick to condemn the speech, some party leaders said in private conversations that Hohmann did not deserve to be expelled.<ref name=NYT /> [[BBC]] explained the sentiment in Germany by observing that "any criticism of Jewish people is still a taboo in Germany, which makes this incident extremely embarrassing for Mr Hohmann's party".<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3230223.stm German MP defends Jewish remarks] BBC October 31, 2003. Last Updated: Friday, 31 October, 2003</ref> The decision to expel him met severe criticism from party rank-and-files. CDU officials in the Ruhr town of [[Recklinghausen]] joined the protests by displaying a banner from the local party office. It read: "Nobody in Germany is allowed to tell the truth any more".

He kept his seat as an independent [[member of parliament]] until the next [[German federal election, 2005|Bundestag election of 2005]]. There, Hohmann run unsuccessfully for a seat as an independent candidate. He received 21,5 percent of the votes, an exceptionally high number for an independent candidate.

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
*[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3269597.stm 'Anti-Semitic' MP expelled]; BBC; [[14 November]] [[2003]].
*[http://www.martinhohmann.de Martin Hohmann] - The official web page of Martin Hohmann (German)
*[http://www.mosaisk.com/Martin-Hohmann/Anti-Semitic-speech-by-German-politician-Martin-Hohmann.php Martin Hohmann's allegedly anti-Semitic Speech]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Hohmann, John}}
[[Category:German independent politicians]]
[[Category:1948 births]]
[[Category:Antisemitic publications]]
[[Category:Living people]]

[[de:Martin Hohmann]]

Talk:Martin Hohmann

2009-07-15T08:01:51Z

Papphase:

{{WPBiography
|living=yes
|class=
|priority=
|listas=Hohmann, Martin
}}
{{WikiProject Germany|class=stub|importance= }}

{{WPReligion|class=|importance=|Interfaith=yes|InterfaithImp=}}

== Partial- flag as bias ==

Partial - and not based on factual content of speach but on interpretation of onlooker, bringing in interpretation with bias, and also ignoring the historical facts Hohmann brings up. Author of text als shows clare bias against Hohmann, interpreting his speach in the worst possible way. -this is an academicly weak article that does not stand up to scrutiny.

NMJ ~ BA.pol.sci

[[Special:Contributions/84.49.93.211|84.49.93.211]] ([[User talk:84.49.93.211|talk]]) 03:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

What NMJ claims is correct. The Article shows clear bias against Martin Hohmann, in that it presents almost no arguments supporting Mr. Hohmann's speech's claims. The article in it's current form provides a false debate, where it states Mr. Hohmann's claims (out of context) and then proceeds to tear them down.

[[Special:Contributions/158.36.225.232|158.36.225.232]] ([[User talk:158.36.225.232|talk]]) 16:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

:The article does of course not support Mr. Hohmann's interpretations of history, as he is merely repeating antisemitic stereotypes that have been effectively discarded long ago. The interpretation of Hohmann's speech follows the public and scientific reception and, last but not least, the decision of the Berliner Kammergericht in Hohmann's appeal against his exclusion from the CDU. The decision can be found [http://www.gerichtsentscheidungen.berlin-brandenburg.de/jportal/portal/t/x57/bs/10/page/sammlung.psml;jsessionid=9AF8BC30D3D76878528FE1B05AC38DC0.jp95?pid=Dokumentanzeige&showdoccase=1&js_peid=Trefferliste&documentnumber=1&numberofresults=1&fromdoctodoc=yes&doc.id=KORE406382007&doc.part=L&doc.price=0.0#rd_20 here ] (in German, of course). --[[User:Papphase|Papphase]] ([[User talk:Papphase|talk]]) 08:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

CT pulmonary angiogram

2009-07-03T20:00:42Z

Papphase:

[[Image:SADDLE PE.JPG|thumb|300px|right|Example of a CTPA, demonstrating a saddle embolus. The white area above the center is the pulmonary artery, opacified by radiocontrast. Inside it, the grey matter is blood clot. The black areas on either side are the lungs, with around it the chest wall.]]
'''CT pulmonary angiogram''' (CTPA) is a medical diagnostic test that employs [[computed tomography]] to obtain an image of the [[pulmonary artery|pulmonary arteries]]. Its main use is to diagnose [[pulmonary embolism]] (PE).<ref name=Fedullo/>
[[File:CtAnimCor.gif|thumb|left|Animated sequence from a reconstructed coronal CT pulmonary angiography]]
==Diagnostic use==
{{main|pulmonary embolism}}
CTPA was introduced in the 1990s as an alternative to [[ventilation/perfusion scan]]ning, which relies on [[radionuclide]] imaging of the blood vessels of the lung. It is regarded as a highly sensitive and specific test for pulmonary embolism.<ref name=Fedullo>{{cite journal |author=Fedullo PF, Tapson VF |title=Clinical practice. The evaluation of suspected pulmonary embolism |journal=N. Engl. J. Med. |volume=349 |issue=13 |pages=1247–56 |year=2003 |pmid=14507950 |doi=10.1056/NEJMcp035442}}</ref>

CTPA is typically only requested if pulmonary embolism is suspected clinically. If the probability of PE is considered low, a blood test called [[D-dimer]] may be requested. If this is negative, risk of a PE is considered negligible and CTPA or other scans are generally not performed. Most patients will have undergone a [[chest X-ray]] before CTPA is requested.<ref name=Fedullo/>

After initial concern that CTPA would miss smaller emboli, a 2007 study comparing CTPA directly with ventilation/perfusion scanning found that CTPA identified more emboli without decreasing the risk of long-term complications compared to V/Q scanning.<ref name=Anderson2007>{{cite journal|author=Anderson DR, Kahn SR, Rodger MA ''et al.''|year=2007|title=Computed tomographic pulmonary angiography vs ventilation-perfusion lung scanning in patients with suspected pulmonary embolism|journal=JAMA|volume=298|issue=23|pages=2743–53|url=http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/298/23/2743|doi=10.1001/jama.298.23.2743 | pmid=18165667}}</ref>

==Contraindications==
CTPA is generally avoided in [[pregnancy]] due to the amount of ionizing radiation required, which may damage the fetus.<ref>{{cite journal |author=Scarsbrook AF, Gleeson FV |title=Investigating suspected pulmonary embolism in pregnancy |journal=BMJ |volume=334 |issue=7590 |pages=418–9 |year=2007 |pmid=17322258 |doi=10.1136/bmj.39071.617257.80|url=http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/334/7590/418}}</ref>

CTPA is contraindicated in known or suspected [[allergy]] to [[contrast medium|contrast media]] or in [[renal failure]] (where contrast agents could worsen the renal function).<ref name=Anderson2007/>

==Acquisition==
The best results are obtained using [[multidetector computed tomography]] (MDCT) scanners.<ref>{{cite journal |author=Schoepf UJ, Goldhaber SZ, Costello P |title=Spiral computed tomography for acute pulmonary embolism |journal=Circulation |volume=109 |issue=18 |pages=2160–7 |year=2004 |pmid=15136509 |doi=10.1161/01.CIR.0000128813.04325.08|url=http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/109/18/2160}}</ref>

An [[Intravenous therapy|intravenous cannula]] is required for the administration of the 50-150 ml of radiocontrast. This is injected, usually automatically, by a [[syringe driver]], at a rate of 4 ml/second. Many hospitals use [[bolus tracking]], where the scan commences when the contrast is detected at the level of the proximal [[pulmonary artery|pulmonary arteries]]. If this is done manually, scanning commences about 10–12 seconds after the injection has started. Slices of 1-3 mm are performed at 1-3 mm intervals, depending on the nature of the scanner (single- versus multidetector).<ref name=Anderson2007/>

[[State of the art]] CT machines can complete a scan in approximately five seconds and it is possible to complete the entire procedure (set-up, injection and scanning) in the space of five minutes.{{fact|date=December 2007}}

==Interpretation==
On CTPA, the pulmonary vessels are filled with contrast, and appear white. Any mass filling defects ([[Embolism|embolus]] or other matter such as [[fat]] or [[amniotic fluid]]) appears darker. Generally, the scan should be complete before the contrast reaches the left side of the heart and the [[aorta]], which could result in artifacts.{{fact|date=December 2007}}

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Medical imaging]]
[[Category:Radiography]]

Speight's

2009-06-07T01:24:36Z

Papphase:

{{Infobox Company |
| company_name = Speights
| company_logo = [[Image:Speight's logo.svg|150px|]]
| company_type = Private
| foundation = 1876
| location = [[Dunedin, New Zealand|Dunedin]], [[New Zealand]]
| key_people =
| industry = Beverages
| products = Beers and lagers
| revenue =
| num_employees=
| homepage = http://www.speights.co.nz/
}}
{{Infobox Brewery
| name = Speights
| image =
| caption =
| location =
| owner =
| opened =
| production =
| active_beers =
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Gold Medal Ale]]|style=[[Lager]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Old Dark]]|style=English [[Porter (beer)|Porter]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Distinction Ale]]|style=Traditional [[Dark Ale]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Pale Ale]]|style=[[Pale Ale]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Porter]]|style=[[Porter (beer)|Porter]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Pilsner]]|style=[[Pilsner]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Summit]]|style=[[Lager]]}}
| seasonal_beers =
| other_beers =
}}

'''Speight's''' is a [[brewery]] in [[Dunedin, New Zealand]]. It is famous for its promotional branding based on being 'a real southern man' and being 'the pride of the south'.

== History ==
[[Image:Speights brewery.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Speights Brewery, Rattray St]]
Speights was founded by James Speight, Charles Greenslade, and William Dawson. Speight's was first brewed on [[4 April]] [[1876]] in Dunedin at the present Rattray Street site at the foot of the [[City Rise]]. Since then the Speight's brand has been firmly planted in the deep south of New Zealand.

The Speight's brand was removed in August [[1960]] and replaced with the Lucky brand. However, the public response was less than favourable, so the Speight's brand was brought back into production in October of that year.

Speight's is the fighting brand of Lion Nathan in New Zealand.

Speight's distinctive label features three eight-pointed stars. These stars come from both the original provincial arms of Otago, and the fact that Speights was awarded gold medals at the 1877 Brewery awards in three different countries.

== Brands ==
[[Speight's Gold Medal Ale]] is the traditional [[beer]] of students at the [[University of Otago]] in [[Dunedin, New Zealand]]. While marketed as a 'Gold Medal Ale', Speight's is actually a New Zealand draught style beer, brewed using [[lager]] yeast and lagering techniques.

The brand extended through New Zealand and into the Pacific in the 19th century. The company consolidated into New Zealand Breweries in the early 20th century when the brand's identity became reduced. Rediscovered by its owners it was promoted as a regional brew, with some success.

The wild popularity of the "Southern Man" series of advertisements has led to Speight's undergoing something of a boom and it can now again be found throughout the country.

The Speight's brewery also makes [[Speight's Old Dark]], and the Speights Craft Range of handmade beer, including [[Speight's Distinction Ale|Distinction Ale]], [[Speight's Porter|Porter]], [[Speight's Pilsner|Pilsner]], [[Speight's Pale Ale|Pale Ale]], and [[Speight's Harvest Gold| Harvest Gold]], but none of these comes close to its Gold Medal Ale in popularity.

Speight's has also introduced Speight's Summit, a lager brewed with all natural ingredients, with the slogan being, "Don't mess with nature".

[[Image:Speights.jpg|thumb|right|130px|"Pride of the South"]]

== Marketing ==
Amongst many marketing angles, the '[[Southern man]]' campaign has been significantly popular and long running. One television advertisement featured the [[Cardrona Hotel]] pub. Speights later opened a loose replica of this building in [[Mt Eden]], [[Auckland]] as part of its marketing scheme.

On 16 April 2007 Speight's announced the [[Speight's Great Beer Delivery]] via Samoa, Panama, the Bahamas and New York to London.

Last year Speight's received more than 500 emails from New Zealanders in the UK missing Speight's. 

Speight's has used the slogan "Pride of the south" for many years.

== Trivia ==
[[File:Speight_Brewery_Sign.jpg|thumb|left|Sign at the Speight's Brewery in Dunedin]]
{{Trivia|date=May 2008}}
Since a fire destroyed the Dunedin bottling and canning plant (now the site of a department store) Speight's bottling plant (for its [[stubbies]]) is in [[Auckland, New Zealand]]. It is felt by some Southerners that this should be located in the south, rather than in the north.

Packaged Speights (bottles and cans) beer is brewed in [[Auckland]] and [[Christchurch]].

At the site of their Dunedin plant the company has installed a tap that pumps water up from a spring deep below the brewery, thus providing fresh, pure water free of charge. This tap was at the centre of an April Fool's joke in 1998 when the [[Otago Daily Times]] said that, just for that day, Speights beer would flow, free of charge, from that tap.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.dunedinlibraries.com/ipac20/ipac.jsp?profile=remote&uri=full=1100026~!65770~!7&ri=4&aspect=subtab25&menu=search&source=~!remote#focus|title=Celebratory offer of free beer should go down well.|date=[[1 April]] [[1998]]|publisher=Otago Daily Times|accessdate=2008-08-15}}</ref>

== See also ==
* [[List of food companies]]

== External links ==
* [http://www.speights.co.nz Official Site]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{coord|-45.876374|170.499959|display=title}}

[[Category:Beer and breweries in New Zealand]]
[[Category:Dunedin]]

[[de:Speight's]]
[[fr:Speight's]]

Speight's

2009-06-07T01:23:59Z

Papphase:

{{Infobox Company |
| company_name = Speights
| company_logo = [[Image:Speight's logo.svg|150px|]]
| company_type = Private
| foundation = 1876
| location = [[Dunedin, New Zealand|Dunedin]], [[New Zealand]]
| key_people =
| industry = Beverages
| products = Beers and lagers
| revenue =
| num_employees=
| homepage = http://www.speights.co.nz/
}}
{{Infobox Brewery
| name = Speights
| image =
| caption =
| location =
| owner =
| opened =
| production =
| active_beers =
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Gold Medal Ale]]|style=[[Lager]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Old Dark]]|style=English [[Porter (beer)|Porter]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Distinction Ale]]|style=Traditional [[Dark Ale]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Pale Ale]]|style=[[Pale Ale]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Porter]]|style=[[Porter (beer)|Porter]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Pilsner]]|style=[[Pilsner]]}}
{{brewbox_beer|name=[[Speight's Summit]]|style=[[Lager]]}}
| seasonal_beers =
| other_beers =
}}

'''Speight's''' is a [[brewery]] in [[Dunedin, New Zealand]]. It is famous for its promotional branding based on being 'a real southern man' and being 'the pride of the south'.

== History ==

Speights was founded by James Speight, Charles Greenslade, and William Dawson. Speight's was first brewed on [[4 April]] [[1876]] in Dunedin at the present Rattray Street site at the foot of the [[City Rise]]. Since then the Speight's brand has been firmly planted in the deep south of New Zealand.

[[Image:Speights brewery.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Speights Brewery, Rattray St]]
The Speight's brand was removed in August [[1960]] and replaced with the Lucky brand. However, the public response was less than favourable, so the Speight's brand was brought back into production in October of that year.

Speight's is the fighting brand of Lion Nathan in New Zealand.

Speight's distinctive label features three eight-pointed stars. These stars come from both the original provincial arms of Otago, and the fact that Speights was awarded gold medals at the 1877 Brewery awards in three different countries.

== Brands ==
[[Speight's Gold Medal Ale]] is the traditional [[beer]] of students at the [[University of Otago]] in [[Dunedin, New Zealand]]. While marketed as a 'Gold Medal Ale', Speight's is actually a New Zealand draught style beer, brewed using [[lager]] yeast and lagering techniques.

The brand extended through New Zealand and into the Pacific in the 19th century. The company consolidated into New Zealand Breweries in the early 20th century when the brand's identity became reduced. Rediscovered by its owners it was promoted as a regional brew, with some success.

The wild popularity of the "Southern Man" series of advertisements has led to Speight's undergoing something of a boom and it can now again be found throughout the country.

The Speight's brewery also makes [[Speight's Old Dark]], and the Speights Craft Range of handmade beer, including [[Speight's Distinction Ale|Distinction Ale]], [[Speight's Porter|Porter]], [[Speight's Pilsner|Pilsner]], [[Speight's Pale Ale|Pale Ale]], and [[Speight's Harvest Gold| Harvest Gold]], but none of these comes close to its Gold Medal Ale in popularity.

Speight's has also introduced Speight's Summit, a lager brewed with all natural ingredients, with the slogan being, "Don't mess with nature".

[[Image:Speights.jpg|thumb|right|130px|"Pride of the South"]]

== Marketing ==
Amongst many marketing angles, the '[[Southern man]]' campaign has been significantly popular and long running. One television advertisement featured the [[Cardrona Hotel]] pub. Speights later opened a loose replica of this building in [[Mt Eden]], [[Auckland]] as part of its marketing scheme.

On 16 April 2007 Speight's announced the [[Speight's Great Beer Delivery]] via Samoa, Panama, the Bahamas and New York to London.

Last year Speight's received more than 500 emails from New Zealanders in the UK missing Speight's. 

Speight's has used the slogan "Pride of the south" for many years.

== Trivia ==
[[File:Speight_Brewery_Sign.jpg|thumb|left|Sign at the Speight's Brewery in Dunedin]]
{{Trivia|date=May 2008}}
Since a fire destroyed the Dunedin bottling and canning plant (now the site of a department store) Speight's bottling plant (for its [[stubbies]]) is in [[Auckland, New Zealand]]. It is felt by some Southerners that this should be located in the south, rather than in the north.

Packaged Speights (bottles and cans) beer is brewed in [[Auckland]] and [[Christchurch]].

At the site of their Dunedin plant the company has installed a tap that pumps water up from a spring deep below the brewery, thus providing fresh, pure water free of charge. This tap was at the centre of an April Fool's joke in 1998 when the [[Otago Daily Times]] said that, just for that day, Speights beer would flow, free of charge, from that tap.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.dunedinlibraries.com/ipac20/ipac.jsp?profile=remote&uri=full=1100026~!65770~!7&ri=4&aspect=subtab25&menu=search&source=~!remote#focus|title=Celebratory offer of free beer should go down well.|date=[[1 April]] [[1998]]|publisher=Otago Daily Times|accessdate=2008-08-15}}</ref>

== See also ==
* [[List of food companies]]

== External links ==
* [http://www.speights.co.nz Official Site]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{coord|-45.876374|170.499959|display=title}}

[[Category:Beer and breweries in New Zealand]]
[[Category:Dunedin]]

[[de:Speight's]]
[[fr:Speight's]]

David Carradine

2009-05-31T00:19:12Z

Papphase:

{{Cleanup|article|date=December 2008}}
{{Infobox actor
| name = David Carradine
| image = Carradine.jpg
| caption = David Carradine, April 2005
| birthname = John Arthur Carradine
| birthdate = {{birth date and age|1936|12|8}}
| birthplace = [[Hollywood, California]]
| occupation = actor, producer, director
| yearsactive = 1963 - present
| spouse = Donna Lee Becht (1960-1968) Linda Gilbert (1977-1983) Gail Jensen (1988-1997) Marina Anderson (1998-2001) Annie Bierman (2004-)
| website = http://www.davidcarradine.org
}}
'''David Carradine''' (born December 8, 1936) is an [[United States|American]] [[actor]].

== Early life ==
Carradine was born '''John Arthur Carradine''' in [[Hollywood, California]], the son of Ardanelle Abigail ([[married and maiden names|née]] McCool) and noted American actor [[John Carradine]].<ref>[http://www.filmreference.com/film/99/David-Carradine.html David Carradine Biography (1936-)]</ref> He is the brother of [[Bruce Carradine]] and half-brother of [[Keith Carradine|Keith]] and [[Robert Carradine]], as well as the uncle of [[Ever Carradine]] and [[Martha Plimpton]]. Carradine has [[Irish people|Irish]], [[English people|English]], [[Scottish people|Scottish]], [[Welsh people|Welsh]], [[German people|German]], [[Spanish people|Spanish]], [[Italian people|Italian]], [[Ukrainian people|Ukrainian]] and [[Cherokee]] ancestry.<ref>[http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=562 David Carradine Article on Stuffmagazine.com]</ref> Carradine studied drama at [[San Francisco State University]] before working as an actor on stage as well as in television and cinema. He changed his given name to David after starting his career.

==Career==
Carradine is known for his roles as [[Kwai Chang Caine]] in the 1970s television series ''[[Kung Fu (TV series)|Kung Fu]]'' (as well as the sequels in the 1980s and 1990s), as well as 'Big' Bill Shelly in [[Martin Scorsese]]'s ''[[Boxcar Bertha]]'' (1972), folksinger [[Woody Guthrie]] in ''[[Bound for Glory (film)|Bound for Glory]]'' (1976), Abel Rosenberg in [[Ingmar Bergman]]'s ''[[The Serpent's Egg (film)|The Serpent's Egg]]'' (1977), and as [[Bill (Kill Bill)|Bill]] in [[Quentin Tarantino]]'s ''[[Kill Bill]]'', Vols. 1 & 2 (2003, 2004, respectively).

Other notable roles include the lead in ''[[Shane (TV series)|Shane]]'' (the 1966 television series based upon the 1949 novel of the same name) and a [[gunslinger]] in ''[[Taggart (1964 film)|Taggart]]'', a 1964 [[western movie|western]] film based on a [[novel]] by [[Louis L'Amour]]. He also starred in the Broadway version of the play ''[[The Royal Hunt of the Sun]]'' in 1965. More recently, he portrayed [[Tempus]], a powerful demon with the ability to manipulate time, on the hit [[television series]] ''[[Charmed]]'', as well as Conrad in the television series ''[[List of characters from Alias|Alias]]''. Carradine has twice played a supernatural being with the power to control time: "Tempus" on ''[[Charmed]]'' and "Clockwork" on ''[[Danny Phantom]]''.

Carradine appears in an episode of Disney's ''[[Lizzie McGuire]]''. In this episode, an upcoming [[Jet Li]] film is auditioning boys the age of Lizzie's brother Matt for the role of the [[sidekick]]. Carradine plays an old friend of Lizzie's father, Sam McGuire, who teaches Matt a few [[Kung fu (term)|Kung fu]] moves for his audition tape. When asked how he knows Carradine's character, Mr. McGuire replies cryptically, "He's like a brother to me." This is an [[in-joke]] as the actor who portrays Sam, [[Robert Carradine]], is David Carradine's actual (half-) brother. Additionally, a large portion of the episode is spent in parody of ''[[Kung Fu (TV series)|Kung Fu]]'', one of Carradine's most famous projects. He also had an unusual guest appearance in an episode of ''[[Medium (TV series)|Medium]]'': he played the spirit of a murdered mentally disturbed mathematician whose constant fantasies of being a hero caused him to believe he looked like David Carradine (which reflected in the appearance of his spirit). In the end of the episode, after his murderer is caught, he seems to improve and tells Allison that next time they meet he will "look more like [himself]".

Carradine has also provided his voice for the ''[[King of the Hill]]'' episode, ''Returning Japanese'' where he voiced the character of Hank's Japanese half-brother, Junichiro, who lives in Japan. He provided the voice for Lo Pei, the ancient warrior who was responsible for Shendu's petrification in the animated series: ''[[Jackie Chan Adventures]]''.

Carradine is also known for producing and starring in several exercise videos teaching the martial arts of [[Tai chi]] and [[Qi Gong]]. Carradine actually had no knowledge of martial arts prior to starring in the series ''Kung Fu'', but developed an interest in it after this experience and has since become an avid practitioner.

Carradine currently appears as the host of ''[[Wild West Tech]]'' on the [[History Channel]], taking over the duties from his brother Keith. He narrated the PBS anthropology series "Faces of Culture". In 2006, he became the spokesman for [[Yellowbook]], a publisher of independent telephone directories in the United States. He has also been the TV spokesperson for [[Lipton]]<ref>http://commercial-archive.com/node/9341</ref> ("This ain't no sippin' tea"), in a memorable commercial where he pays homage not only to ''[[Kung Fu (TV series)|Kung Fu]]'', but also to the [[Three Stooges]].

Carradine also appears in the music video for "Minus You" by the southern California band [[Chapel of Thieves]], which was co-directed by the YouTube personality [[Boh3m3]]. He also worked with the [[Jonas Brothers]] in their video [[Burnin' Up]], playing a Kung Fu Master. In 2009, he played a 100 year-old Chinese gangster in ''[[Crank: High Voltage]]''.

[[Image:Carradine Signing.JPG|thumb|Carradine signing autographs in [[Malmö]], 2005]]

==Personal life==
On December 26, 2004, he married his present wife, Annie, at the seaside Malibu home of his friend, [[Michael Madsen]]. The ceremony was performed by his attorney and his wife's long time friend, Vicki Roberts.

==Selected filmography==
{{filmography table head}}
! Year
! Film
! Role
! Notes
|-
| 1964 || ''[[Taggart (1964 film)|Taggart]]'' || Cal Dodge||
|-
| 1966 || ''[[Shane (TV series)|Shane]]'' || [[Shane (novel)|Shane]]|| Television
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1967 || ''[[Johnny Belinda (1967 film)|Johnny Belinda]]'' || Locky|| Television
|-
| ''[[The Violent Ones]]''|| Lucas Barnes||
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1969 || ''[[Heaven with a Gun]]'' || Coke Beck ||
|-
| ''[[Young Billy Young]]'' || Jesse Boone ||
|-
| 1972 || ''[[Boxcar Bertha]]''|| 'Big' Bill Shelly||
|-
| 1972-1975 || ''[[Kung Fu (TV series)|Kung Fu]]'' || [[Kwai Chang Caine]]|| Nominated — [[Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actor - Drama Series]] Nominated — [[Golden Globe Award for Best Performance by an Actor in a Television Series - Drama]]
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1973 || ''[[The Long Goodbye (film)|The Long Goodbye]]'' || Dave aka Socrates - Marlowe's Cellmate || uncredited
|-
| ''[[Mean Streets]]'' || Drunk ||
|-
| 1975 || ''[[Death Race 2000]]'' || Frankenstein||
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1976 || ''[[Cannonball (film)|Cannonball]]''||Coy 'Cannonball' Buckman||
|-
| ''[[Bound for Glory (film)|Bound for Glory]]''|| [[Woody Guthrie]]|| [[National Board of Review Award for Best Actor]] Nominated — [[Golden Globe Award for Best Actor - Motion Picture Drama]]
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1977 || ''[[The Serpent's Egg (film)|The Serpent's Egg]]'' || Abel Rosenberg||
|-
| ''[[Thunder and Lightning (1981 film)|Thunder and Lightning]]'' || Harley Thomas||
|-
| rowspan="3"| 1978 || ''[[Deathsport]]'' || Kaz Oshay ||
|-
| ''[[Circle of Iron]]'' || The Blind Man/Monkeyman/Death/Changsha ||
|-
| ''[[Gray Lady Down]]'' || Capt. Gates||
|-
| 1979 || ''[[Mr. Horn]]'' || [[Tom Horn]] || Television
|-
| 1980 || ''[[The Long Riders]]''|| [[Cole Younger]]||
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1982 || ''[[Q (film)|Q]]''||Detective Shepard||
|-
|''[[Trick Or Treats (1982 film)|Trick Or Treats]]'' || Richard ||
|-
| 1983 || ''[[Lone Wolf McQuade]]''|| Rawley Wilkes||
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1984 || ''[[The Warrior and the Sorceress]]''|| Kain||
|-
| ''[[Airwolf]]''|| Dr. Robert Winchester || Television
|-
| 1985 || ''[[North and South (TV miniseries)|North and South]]'' || Justin LaMotte|| Nominated — [[Golden Globe Award for Best Performance by an Actor in a Supporting Role in a Series, Mini-Series or Motion Picture Made for Television]]
|-
| 1986 || ''[[Kung Fu: The Movie]]'' || [[Kwai Chang Caine]]|| Television
|-
| 1988 || ''[[Tropical Snow]]'' || Oskar ||
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1990 || ''[[Sundown: The Vampire in Retreat]]'' || Jozek Mardulak/[[Dracula (character)|Count Dracula]] ||
|-
| ''[[Bird on a Wire (film)|Bird on a Wire]]'' || Sorenson ||
|-
| rowspan="3"| 1991 || ''[[Karate Cop]]'' || Dad ||
|-
| ''[[Martial Law (1991 film)|Martial Law]]'' || Dalton Rhodes ||
|-
| ''[[The Gambler Returns: The Luck of the Draw]]'' || Caine || Television
|-
|rowspan="3"| 1992 || ''[[Evil Toons]]'' || Gideon Fisk ||
|-
| ''[[Roadside Prophets]]'' || Othello ||
|-
| ''[[Waxwork II: Lost in Time]]'' || The Beggar ||
|-
| 1993-1997 || ''[[Kung Fu: The Legend Continues]]'' || Kwai Chang Caine|| Television
|-
| 1997 || ''[[Last Stand at Saber River]]'' || Duane Kidston || Television
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1998 || ''[[Children of the Corn V: Fields of Terror]]'' || Luke Enright ||
|-
| ''[[An American Tail: The Treasure of Manhattan Island]]'' || Chief Wulisso || Voice only
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1999 || ''[[Charmed]]'' || [[Tempus]] || Television
|-
| ''[[American Reel]]'' || James Lee Springer ||
|-
| rowspan="1"|2000|| ''[[Down 'n Dirty]]'' || Gil Garner ||
|-
| rowspan="1"|2001|| ''[[Queen Of Swords]]'' || The Serpent || Television
|-
| rowspan="3"| 2002|| ''[[Balto II: Wolf Quest]]'' || Nava the Wolf Shaman || Voice only
|-
| ''[[The Outsider (2002 film)|The Outsider]]'' || Haines || Television
|-
| ''[[King of the Hill]]'' || Junichiro Hill || Television (voice only)
|-
| 2003 || ''[[Kill Bill]]'': Vol. I || [[Bill (Kill Bill)|Bill]] ||
|-
| rowspan="1"| 2003-2004 || ''[[Alias (TV series)|Alias]]'' || Conrad|| Television
|-
| rowspan="4"| 2004 || ''[[Kill Bill]]'': Vol. II || [[Bill (Kill Bill)|Bill]] || [[Saturn Award for Best Supporting Actor]] Nominated — [[Golden Globe Award for Best Supporting Actor - Motion Picture]]
|-
| ''[[Hair High]]'' || Mr. Snerz || Voice only
|-
| ''[[Dead & Breakfast]]'' || Mr. Wise ||
|-
| ''[[Max Havoc: Curse of the Dragon]]'' || Grand Master ||
|-
| 2005 || ''[[Danny Phantom]]'' || [[List of villains and ghosts in Danny Phantom#Clockwork|Clockwork]] || Television (voice)
|-
| rowspan="2"| 2006 || ''[[Medium (TV series)|Medium]]'' || Jessica's Brother || Television
|-
| ''[[Saints Row]]'' || William Sharp || Video Game (voice only)
|-
| rowspan="7"| 2007 || ''[[Homo Erectus (film)|Homo Erectus]]'' || Mookoo ||
|-
| ''[[Epic Movie]]'' || The Curator ||
|-
| ''[[Fall Down Dead]]'' || Wade ||
|-
| ''[[Camille (2007 film)|Camille]]'' || Cowboy Bob ||
|-
| ''[[How to Rob a Bank]]'' || Nick ||
|-
| ''[[Fuego (film)|Fuego]]'' || Lobo ||
|-
| ''[[Big Stan]]'' || The Master ||
|-
| rowspan="7" | 2008 || ''[[Chatham (film)|Chatham]]'' || Captain Zeb ||
|-
| ''[[Richard III (2008 film)|Richard III]]'' || [[Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham|Buckingham]] ||
|-
| ''[[Hell Ride]]'' || The Deuce ||
|-
| ''[[Son of the Dragon (TV miniseries)|Son of the Dragon]] '' || Bird || Television
|-
| ''[[Last Hour]]'' || Detective Mike Stone ||
|-
| ''[[Death Race (film)|Death Race]]'' || [[Frankenstein in popular culture#Influence|Frankenstein]] || Voice Over
|-
| ''[[My Suicide]]'' || Vargas ||
|-
| rowspan="2" | 2009 || ''[[Absolute Evil]]'' || Raf McCane ||
|-
| ''[[Crank: High Voltage]]'' || Poon Dong ||
|}

==Awards==
*2005: ''Action On Film International Film Festival Lifetime Achievement Award''<ref>[http://www.aoffest.com/ Action on Film Festival | AOF Festival | Long Beach, CA]</ref>

== Further reading ==
* Carradine, David. ''Endless Highway.'' Boston: Journey Editions, 1995.
* Pilato, Herbie J. ''[[The Kung Fu Book of Caine: The Complete Guide to TV's First Mystical Eastern Western]]''. Boston: Charles A. Tuttle, 1993. ISBN 0-8048-1826-6

== References ==
{{reflist}}

== External links ==
*[http://www.davidcarradine.org/ Official site]
*{{imdb|0001016}}
*{{ibdb|34643}}
*{{Amg name|84255}}
*{{tvtome person|14910}}
*{{myspace|officialdavidcarradine}}
*[http://www.avclub.com/content/node/23019 Onion interview]
*[http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/506/506238p1.html IGN interview with David Carradine]
*''[http://www.greencine.com/article?action=view&articleID=117 "A Fresh Thing": David Carradine]''
*[http://www.panartist.com/davidcarradine.htm Carradine Music on itunes]

[[Category:American film actors]]
[[Category:American television actors]]
[[Category:American wushu practitioners]]
[[Category:Americans of Cherokee descent]]
[[Category:English Americans]]
[[Category:Irish-Americans]]
[[Category:Italian-Americans]]
[[Category:Scottish-Americans]]
[[Category:Actors from California]]
[[Category:German-Americans]]
[[Category:Native American actors]]
[[Category:People from the Greater Los Angeles Area]]
[[Category:San Francisco State University alumni]]
[[Category:Saturn Award winners]]
[[Category:Spanish-Americans]]
[[Category:Ukrainian-Americans]]
[[Category:Welsh-American actors]]
{{lifetime|1936|LIVING|Carradine, David}}

[[ar:ديفيد كارادين]]
[[de:David Carradine]]
[[es:David Carradine]]
[[fr:David Carradine]]
[[gl:David Carradine]]
[[it:David Carradine]]
[[nl:David Carradine]]
[[ja:デビッド・キャラダイン]]
[[no:David Carradine]]
[[pl:David Carradine]]
[[pt:David Carradine]]
[[ru:Кэррадайн, Дэвид]]
[[sq:David Carradine]]
[[fi:David Carradine]]
[[sv:David Carradine]]
[[tr:David Carradine]]
[[zh:大衛·卡拉定]]

David Carradine

2009-05-31T00:18:30Z

Papphase:

{{Cleanup|article|date=December 2008}}
{{Infobox actor
| name = David Carradine
| image = Carradine.jpg
| caption = David Carradine, April 2005
| birthname = John Arthur Carradine
| birthdate = {{birth date and age|1936|12|8}}
| birthplace = [[Hollywood, California]]
| occupation = actor, producer, director
| yearsactive = 1963 - present
| spouse = Donna Lee Becht (1960-1968) Linda Gilbert (1977-1983) Gail Jensen (1988-1997) Marina Anderson (1998-2001) Annie Bierman (2004-)
| website = http://www.davidcarradine.org
}}
'''David Carradine''' (born December 8, 1936) is an [[United States|American]] [[actor]].

== Early life ==
Carradine was born '''John Arthur Carradine''' in [[Hollywood, California]], the son of Ardanelle Abigail ([[married and maiden names|née]] McCool) and noted American actor [[John Carradine]].<ref>[http://www.filmreference.com/film/99/David-Carradine.html David Carradine Biography (1936-)]</ref> He is the brother of [[Bruce Carradine]] and half-brother of [[Keith Carradine|Keith]] and [[Robert Carradine]], as well as the uncle of [[Ever Carradine]] and [[Martha Plimpton]]. Carradine has [[Irish people|Irish]], [[English people|English]], [[Scottish people|Scottish]], [[Welsh people|Welsh]], [[German people|German]], [[Spanish people|Spanish]], [[Italian people|Italian]], [[Ukrainian people|Ukrainian]] and [[Cherokee]] ancestry.<ref>[http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=562 David Carradine Article on Stuffmagazine.com]</ref> Carradine studied drama at [[San Francisco State University]] before working as an actor on stage as well as in television and cinema. He changed his given name to David after starting his career.

==Career==
Carradine is known for his roles as [[Kwai Chang Caine]] in the 1970s television series ''[[Kung Fu (TV series)|Kung Fu]]'' (as well as the sequels in the 1980s and 1990s), as well as 'Big' Bill Shelly in [[Martin Scorsese]]'s ''[[Boxcar Bertha]]'' (1972), folksinger [[Woody Guthrie]] in ''[[Bound for Glory (film)|Bound for Glory]]'' (1976), Abel Rosenberg in [[Ingmar Bergman]]'s ''[[The Serpent's Egg (film)|The Serpent's Egg]]'' (1977), and as [[Bill (Kill Bill)|Bill]] in [[Quentin Tarantino]]'s ''[[Kill Bill]]'', Vols. 1 & 2 (2003, 2004, respectively).

Other notable roles include the lead in ''[[Shane (TV series)|Shane]]'' (the 1966 television series based upon the 1949 novel of the same name) and a [[gunslinger]] in ''[[Taggart (1964 film)|Taggart]]'', a 1964 [[western movie|western]] film based on a [[novel]] by [[Louis L'Amour]]. He also starred in the Broadway version of the play ''[[The Royal Hunt of the Sun]]'' in 1965. More recently, he portrayed [[Tempus]], a powerful demon with the ability to manipulate time, on the hit [[television series]] ''[[Charmed]]'', as well as Conrad in the television series ''[[List of characters from Alias|Alias]]''. Carradine has twice played a supernatural being with the power to control time: "Tempus" on ''[[Charmed]]'' and "Clockwork" on ''[[Danny Phantom]]''.

Carradine appears in an episode of Disney's ''[[Lizzie McGuire]]''. In this episode, an upcoming [[Jet Li]] film is auditioning boys the age of Lizzie's brother Matt for the role of the [[sidekick]]. Carradine plays an old friend of Lizzie's father, Sam McGuire, who teaches Matt a few [[Kung fu (term)|Kung fu]] moves for his audition tape. When asked how he knows Carradine's character, Mr. McGuire replies cryptically, "He's like a brother to me." This is an [[in-joke]] as the actor who portrays Sam, [[Robert Carradine]], is David Carradine's actual (half-) brother. Additionally, a large portion of the episode is spent in parody of ''[[Kung Fu (TV series)|Kung Fu]]'', one of Carradine's most famous projects. He also had an unusual guest appearance in an episode of ''[[Medium (TV series)|Medium]]'': he played the spirit of a murdered mentally disturbed mathematician whose constant fantasies of being a hero caused him to believe he looked like David Carradine (which reflected in the appearance of his spirit). In the end of the episode, after his murderer is caught, he seems to improve and tells Allison that next time they meet he will "look more like [himself]".

Carradine has also provided his voice for the ''[[King of the Hill]]'' episode, ''Returning Japanese'' where he voiced the character of Hank's Japanese half-brother, Junichiro, who lives in Japan. He provided the voice for Lo Pei, the ancient warrior who was responsible for Shendu's petrification in the animated series: ''[[Jackie Chan Adventures]]''.

Carradine is also known for producing and starring in several exercise videos teaching the martial arts of [[Tai chi]] and [[Qi Gong]]. Carradine actually had no knowledge of martial arts prior to starring in the series ''Kung Fu'', but developed an interest in it after this experience and has since become an avid practitioner.

Carradine currently appears as the host of ''[[Wild West Tech]]'' on the [[History Channel]], taking over the duties from his brother Keith. He narrated the PBS anthropology series "Faces of Culture". In 2006, he became the spokesman for [[Yellowbook]], a publisher of independent telephone directories in the United States. He has also been the TV spokesperson for [[Lipton]]<ref>http://commercial-archive.com/node/9341</ref> ("This ain't no sippin' tea"), in a memorable commercial where he pays homage not only to ''[[Kung Fu (TV series)|Kung Fu]]'', but also to the [[Three Stooges]].

Carradine also appears in the music video for "Minus You" by the southern California band [[Chapel of Thieves]], which was co-directed by the YouTube personality [[Boh3m3]]. He also worked with the [[Jonas Brothers]] in their video [[Burnin' Up]], playing a Kung Fu Master. In 2009, he played a 100 year-old Chinese gangster in ''[[Crank: High Voltage]]''.

[[Image:Carradine Signing.JPG|thumb|Carradine signing autographs in [[Malmö]], 2005]]

==Personal life==
On December 26, 2004, he married his present wife, Annie, at the seaside Malibu home of his friend, [[Michael Madsen]]. The ceremony was performed by his attorney and his wife's long time friend, Vicki Roberts.

==Selected filmography==
{{filmography table head}}
! Year
! Film
! Role
! Notes
|-
| 1964 || ''[[Taggart (1964 film)|Taggart]]'' || Cal Dodge||
|-
| 1966 || ''[[Shane (TV series)|Shane]]'' || [[Shane (novel)|Shane]]|| Television
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1967 || ''[[Johnny Belinda (1967 film)|Johnny Belinda]]'' || Locky|| Television
|-
| ''[[The Violent Ones]]''|| Lucas Barnes||
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1969 || ''[[Heaven with a Gun]]'' || Coke Beck ||
|-
| ''[[Young Billy Young]]'' || Jesse Boone ||
|-
| 1972 || ''[[Boxcar Bertha]]''|| 'Big' Bill Shelly||
|-
| 1972-1975 || ''[[Kung Fu (TV series)|Kung Fu]]'' || [[Kwai Chang Caine]]|| Nominated — [[Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actor - Drama Series]] Nominated — [[Golden Globe Award for Best Performance by an Actor in a Television Series - Drama]]
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1973 || ''[[The Long Goodbye (film)|The Long Goodbye]]'' || Dave aka Socrates - Marlowe's Cellmate || uncredited
|-
| ''[[Mean Streets]]'' || Drunk ||
|-
| 1975 || ''[[Death Race 2000]]'' || Frankenstein||
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1976 || ''[[Cannonball (film)|Cannonball]]''||Coy 'Cannonball' Buckman||
|-
| ''[[Bound for Glory (film)|Bound for Glory]]''|| [[Woody Guthrie]]|| [[National Board of Review Award for Best Actor]] Nominated — [[Golden Globe Award for Best Actor - Motion Picture Drama]]
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1977 || ''[[The Serpent's Egg (film)|The Serpent's Egg]]'' || Abel Rosenberg||
|-
| ''[[Thunder and Lightning (1981 film)|Thunder and Lightning]]'' || Harley Thomas||
|-
| rowspan="3"| 1978 || ''[[Deathsport]]'' || Kaz Oshay ||
|-
| ''[[Circle of Iron]]'' || The Blind Man/Monkeyman/Death/Changsha ||
|-
| ''[[Gray Lady Down]]'' || Capt. Gates||
|-
| 1979 || ''[[Mr. Horn]]'' || [[Tom Horn]] || Television
|-
| 1980 || ''[[The Long Riders]]''|| [[Cole Younger]]||
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1982 || ''[[Q (film)|Q]]''||Detective Shepard||
|-
|''[[Trick Or Treats (1982 film)|Trick Or Treats]]'' || Richard ||
|-
| 1983 || ''[[Lone Wolf McQuade]]''|| Rawley Wilkes||
|-
| rowspan="2"| 1984 || ''[[The Warrior and the Sorceress]]''|| Kain||
|-
| ''[[Airwolf]]''|| Dr. Robert Winchester || Television
|-
| 1985 || ''[[North and South (TV miniseries)|North and South]]'' || Justin LaMotte|| Nominated — [[Golden Globe Award for Best Performance by an Actor in a Supporting Role in a Series, Mini-Series or Motion Picture Made for Television]]
|-
| 1986 || ''[[Kung Fu: The Movie]]'' || [[Kwai Chang Caine]]|| Television
|-
| 1988 || ''[[Tropical Snow]]'' || Oskar ||
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1990 || ''[[Sundown: The Vampire in Retreat]]'' || Jozek Mardulak/[[Dracula (character)|Count Dracula]] ||
|-
| ''[[Bird on a Wire (film)|Bird on a Wire]]'' || Sorenson ||
|-
| rowspan="3"| 1991 || ''[[Karate Cop]]'' || Dad ||
|-
| ''[[Martial Law (1991 film)|Martial Law]]'' || Dalton Rhodes ||
|-
| ''[[The Gambler Returns: The Luck of the Draw]]'' || Caine || Television
|-
|rowspan="3"| 1992 || ''[[Evil Toons]]'' || Gideon Fisk ||
|-
| ''[[Roadside Prophets]]'' || Othello ||
|-
| ''[[Waxwork II: Lost in Time]]'' || The Beggar ||
|-
| 1993-1997 || ''[[Kung Fu: The Legend Continues]]'' || Kwai Chang Caine|| Television
|-
| 1997 || ''[[Last Stand at Saber River]]'' || Duane Kidston || Television
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1998 || ''[[Children of the Corn V: Fields of Terror]]'' || Luke Enright ||
|-
| ''[[An American Tail: The Treasure of Manhattan Island]]'' || Chief Wulisso || Voice only
|-
|rowspan="2"| 1999 || ''[[Charmed]]'' || [[Tempus]] || Television
|-
| ''[[American Reel]]'' || James Lee Springer ||
|-
| rowspan="1"|2000|| ''[[Down 'n Dirty]]'' || Fred Williamson ||
|-
| rowspan="1"|2001|| ''[[Queen Of Swords]]'' || The Serpent || Television
|-
| rowspan="3"| 2002|| ''[[Balto II: Wolf Quest]]'' || Nava the Wolf Shaman || Voice only
|-
| ''[[The Outsider (2002 film)|The Outsider]]'' || Haines || Television
|-
| ''[[King of the Hill]]'' || Junichiro Hill || Television (voice only)
|-
| 2003 || ''[[Kill Bill]]'': Vol. I || [[Bill (Kill Bill)|Bill]] ||
|-
| rowspan="1"| 2003-2004 || ''[[Alias (TV series)|Alias]]'' || Conrad|| Television
|-
| rowspan="4"| 2004 || ''[[Kill Bill]]'': Vol. II || [[Bill (Kill Bill)|Bill]] || [[Saturn Award for Best Supporting Actor]] Nominated — [[Golden Globe Award for Best Supporting Actor - Motion Picture]]
|-
| ''[[Hair High]]'' || Mr. Snerz || Voice only
|-
| ''[[Dead & Breakfast]]'' || Mr. Wise ||
|-
| ''[[Max Havoc: Curse of the Dragon]]'' || Grand Master ||
|-
| 2005 || ''[[Danny Phantom]]'' || [[List of villains and ghosts in Danny Phantom#Clockwork|Clockwork]] || Television (voice)
|-
| rowspan="2"| 2006 || ''[[Medium (TV series)|Medium]]'' || Jessica's Brother || Television
|-
| ''[[Saints Row]]'' || William Sharp || Video Game (voice only)
|-
| rowspan="7"| 2007 || ''[[Homo Erectus (film)|Homo Erectus]]'' || Mookoo ||
|-
| ''[[Epic Movie]]'' || The Curator ||
|-
| ''[[Fall Down Dead]]'' || Wade ||
|-
| ''[[Camille (2007 film)|Camille]]'' || Cowboy Bob ||
|-
| ''[[How to Rob a Bank]]'' || Nick ||
|-
| ''[[Fuego (film)|Fuego]]'' || Lobo ||
|-
| ''[[Big Stan]]'' || The Master ||
|-
| rowspan="7" | 2008 || ''[[Chatham (film)|Chatham]]'' || Captain Zeb ||
|-
| ''[[Richard III (2008 film)|Richard III]]'' || [[Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham|Buckingham]] ||
|-
| ''[[Hell Ride]]'' || The Deuce ||
|-
| ''[[Son of the Dragon (TV miniseries)|Son of the Dragon]] '' || Bird || Television
|-
| ''[[Last Hour]]'' || Detective Mike Stone ||
|-
| ''[[Death Race (film)|Death Race]]'' || [[Frankenstein in popular culture#Influence|Frankenstein]] || Voice Over
|-
| ''[[My Suicide]]'' || Vargas ||
|-
| rowspan="2" | 2009 || ''[[Absolute Evil]]'' || Raf McCane ||
|-
| ''[[Crank: High Voltage]]'' || Poon Dong ||
|}

==Awards==
*2005: ''Action On Film International Film Festival Lifetime Achievement Award''<ref>[http://www.aoffest.com/ Action on Film Festival | AOF Festival | Long Beach, CA]</ref>

== Further reading ==
* Carradine, David. ''Endless Highway.'' Boston: Journey Editions, 1995.
* Pilato, Herbie J. ''[[The Kung Fu Book of Caine: The Complete Guide to TV's First Mystical Eastern Western]]''. Boston: Charles A. Tuttle, 1993. ISBN 0-8048-1826-6

== References ==
{{reflist}}

== External links ==
*[http://www.davidcarradine.org/ Official site]
*{{imdb|0001016}}
*{{ibdb|34643}}
*{{Amg name|84255}}
*{{tvtome person|14910}}
*{{myspace|officialdavidcarradine}}
*[http://www.avclub.com/content/node/23019 Onion interview]
*[http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/506/506238p1.html IGN interview with David Carradine]
*''[http://www.greencine.com/article?action=view&articleID=117 "A Fresh Thing": David Carradine]''
*[http://www.panartist.com/davidcarradine.htm Carradine Music on itunes]

[[Category:American film actors]]
[[Category:American television actors]]
[[Category:American wushu practitioners]]
[[Category:Americans of Cherokee descent]]
[[Category:English Americans]]
[[Category:Irish-Americans]]
[[Category:Italian-Americans]]
[[Category:Scottish-Americans]]
[[Category:Actors from California]]
[[Category:German-Americans]]
[[Category:Native American actors]]
[[Category:People from the Greater Los Angeles Area]]
[[Category:San Francisco State University alumni]]
[[Category:Saturn Award winners]]
[[Category:Spanish-Americans]]
[[Category:Ukrainian-Americans]]
[[Category:Welsh-American actors]]
{{lifetime|1936|LIVING|Carradine, David}}

[[ar:ديفيد كارادين]]
[[de:David Carradine]]
[[es:David Carradine]]
[[fr:David Carradine]]
[[gl:David Carradine]]
[[it:David Carradine]]
[[nl:David Carradine]]
[[ja:デビッド・キャラダイン]]
[[no:David Carradine]]
[[pl:David Carradine]]
[[pt:David Carradine]]
[[ru:Кэррадайн, Дэвид]]
[[sq:David Carradine]]
[[fi:David Carradine]]
[[sv:David Carradine]]
[[tr:David Carradine]]
[[zh:大衛·卡拉定]]

Snow golf

2009-03-26T22:44:43Z

Papphase:

[[File:Snowgolf.jpg|thumb|Snow golf tournament in Argentina]]
'''Snow golf''' is a sport based on [[golf]] but played over snow (or ice) instead of grass. The "greens" are called "whites" and have an ice surface.

== History ==
[[File:Aert_van_der_Neer_-_IJsvermaak_buiten_de_stadswal_(ca._1655).jpg|thumb|Aert van der Neer, ''IJsvermaak buiten de stadswal'' (ca. 1655)]]
[[File:Avercamp-ijsvermaak.png|thumb|Hendrick Avercamp, ''A Scene on the Ice'' (ca. 1615)]]
As for classic golf the origin of snow golf is thought to be the Dutch game of "Kolf" that was played since the middle ages. Evidence for Kolf as a popular winter pastime comes from numerous 17th century paintings by renowned artist such as [[Aert van der Neer]]<ref>Aert van der Neer: [http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425190319/94842/aert-van-der-neer-a-village-in-winter-with-skaters-on-a-frozen-canal.html ''A Village in Winter with Skaters on a Frozen Canal''] (Oil on canvas, ca. 1660)</ref> or [[Hendrick Avercamp]].<ref>Hendrick Avercamp: [http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=311206 ''A Winter Scene with Two Gentlemen Playing Kolf''] (Oil on canvas, btween 1615 to 1620), Getty Museum</ref>

== Modern snow golf ==
The discovery of modern snow golf is credited to [[Rudyard Kipling]], living in Vermont in the 1890's who was an avid golfer. While writing his famous book [[The Jungle Book]], Kipling relaxed by playing snow golf during winter.

The annual World Ice Golf Championship has been held on the world's nothernmost gilf course on the shelf ice near [[Uummannaq]], [[Greenland]] since 1997. The course is shaped new by the moving ice every year and play is highly dependent on weather conditions <ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/funny_old_game/1184073.stm ''Melting golf-courses and polar bears'']. BBC Sport Online, February 22nd, 2001</ref> Competitors are allowed at handicap 36 or below. Because of the extreme temperature clubs with graphite shafts are not recommended.<ref>[http://www.golf-information.info/world-ice-golf-championship.html World Ice Golf Campionship] at Golfinfo</ref>

The First SnowGolf Championship in Argentina has been held in Cerro Castor, Ushuaia since 2007, by José García Daroca.<ref>[http://snowgolf.com.ar Snowgolf Argentinia]]</ref>

The first ever Snowgolf World Championship for amateurs was carried out in January 2007 in [[Abtenau]], [[Austria]]. With Adi Hengstberger from Germany, the first Snowgolf World Champion was founded. The event is hosted as a major Austrian celebrity event and sponsored by the state of Salzburg as part of the touristic scheme. The second Snowgolf World Championship took place in [[Obertauern]], Austria. Thanks to the “Million Dollar Putt” contest, the official Championship on playing golf on snow title was the biggest prize for an amateur golf event in the world up to now. Alongside amateur competitors, many big names from sport and showbiz were trying to sink their “Million Dollar Putt” for important causes - “Wings for Life“ (Spinal Cord Research Foundation) and “Eagles Charity Golf Club“. In the end nobody could pull off the big putt, and the prize remains unclaimed until the next championship. Adi Hengstberger (D) retained his 2007 title. The runners-up were Tristan David (Philippines) and Peter Dobrowolsky (Austria). The new women’s World Champion was Sarah Hölzl (Austria).<ref>[http://www.salzburg24.at/news/tp:salzburg24:salzburg-news/artikel/schlag-um-eine-million-dollar-bei-der-snowgolf-wm-in-obertauern/cn/news-20090202-04070587 ''Million Dollar Putt in Obertauern'']. Salzburg24, February 2nd 2009 (german)</ref>

== World Championship Results ==
{| class="wikitable"
|- class="hintergrundfarbe5"
! Year !! Event !! Date !! Place !! Champion
|-
| 1999 || Ice golf || 27.3. – 28.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Peter Masters, England
|-
| 2000 || Ice golf || || Uummannaq, Greenland || Annika Østberg, Denmark
|-
| 2001 || Ice golf || 7.4. – 8.4. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Annika Østberg, Denmark
|-
| 2002 || Ice golf || || Uummannaq, Greenland || Roger Beames, Scottland
|-
| 2003 || Ice golf || 21.3. – 23.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || cancelled due to bad weather
|-
| 2006 || Ice golf || 23.2. – 27.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Jason Cunningham, Australia
|-
| 2007<ref>[http://www.perfect4all.de/snow_golf_wm_2007_salzburg.html Report of the Schneegolf WC 2007]</ref> || Snow golf || 2.2. – 4.2. || Abtenau (Austria) || Men: Adi Hengstberger, Germany / Women: Kathi Hämpel, Austria
|-
| 2007 || Ice golf || || Uummannaq, Greenland || cancelled due to thin ice
|-
| 2008 || Ice golf || 20.3. - 25.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || cancelled by new management
|-
| 2009 || Snow golf || 29.1. – 31.1. || Obertauern (Austria) || Men: Adi Hengstberger, Germany / Women: Sarah Holzl, Austria
|-
| 2009 || Ice golf || 19.3. – 24.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || |
|}

==Books==
*''Extreme Golf: The World's Most Unusual, Fantastic, and Bizarre Courses''. Duncan Lennard, Sourcebooks, 2004 (ISBN 1402203144)
*''The Caddie was a Reindeer: And Other Tales of Extreme Recreation''. Steve Rushin, Atlantic Monthly Press, 2004 (ISBN 0871138786)
*[http://www.brilliantpublishing.com/media/Articles/The%20World%20Ice%20Golf%20Championship/world_ice_golf_champ.pdf ''World Ice Gold Championship'']. Brilliant Results, März 2006, S. 50–53 (PDF)

==External links==
*[http://www.snowgolf-wm.com/2009/englisch/index.html "www.snowgolf-worldchampionship.com"]

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:forms of golf]]
[[Category:Winter sports]]

[[de:Schneegolf]]

Snow golf

2009-03-26T22:37:06Z

Papphase:

[[File:Snowgolf.jpg|thumb|Snow golf tournament in Argentina]]
'''Snow golf''' is a sport based on [[golf]] but played over snow (or ice) instead of grass. The "greens" are called "whites" and have an ice surface.

== History ==
[[File:Aert_van_der_Neer_-_IJsvermaak_buiten_de_stadswal_(ca._1655).jpg|thumb|Aert van der Neer, ''IJsvermaak buiten de stadswal'' (ca. 1655)]]
[[File:Avercamp-ijsvermaak.png|thumb|Hendrick Avercamp, ''A Scene on the Ice'' (ca. 1615)]]
As for classic golf the origin of snow golf is thought to be the Dutch game of "Kolf" that was played since the middle ages. Evidence for Kolf as a popular winter pastime comes from numerous 17th century paintings by renowned artist such as [[Aert van der Neer]]<ref>Aert van der Neer: [http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425190319/94842/aert-van-der-neer-a-village-in-winter-with-skaters-on-a-frozen-canal.html ''A Village in Winter with Skaters on a Frozen Canal''] (Oil on canvas, ca. 1660)</ref> or [[Hendrick Avercamp]].<ref>Hendrick Avercamp: [http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=311206 ''A Winter Scene with Two Gentlemen Playing Kolf''] (Oil on canvas, btween 1615 to 1620), Getty Museum</ref>

== Modern snow golf ==
The discovery of modern snow golf is credited to [[Rudyard Kipling]], living in Vermont in the 1890's who was an avid golfer. While writing his famous book [[The Jungle Book]], Kipling relaxed by playing snow golf during winter.

The annual World Ice Golf Championship has been held on the world's nothernmost gilf course on the shelf ice near [[Uummannaq]], [[Greenland]] since 1997. The course is shaped new by the moving ice every year and play is highly dependent on wether conditions <ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/funny_old_game/1184073.stm ''Melting golf-courses and polar bears'']. BBC Sport Online, February 22nd, 2001</ref> Competitors are allowed at handicap 36 or below aufweisen. Because of the extreme temperature clubs with graphite shafts are not recommended.<ref>[http://www.golf-information.info/world-ice-golf-championship.html World Ice Golf Campionship] at Golfinfo</ref>

The First SnowGolf Championship in Argentina has been held in Cerro Castor, Ushuaia since 2007, by José García Daroca.<ref>[http://snowgolf.com.ar Snowgolf Argentinia]]</ref>

The first ever Snowgolf World Championship for amateurs was carried out in January 2007 in [[Abtenau]], [[Austria]]. With Adi Hengstberger from Germany, the first Snowgolf World Champion was founded. The event is hosted as a major Austrian celebrity event and sponsored by the state of Salzburg as part of the touristic scheme. The second Snowgolf World Championship took place in [[Obertauern]], Austria. Thanks to the “Million Dollar Putt” contest, the official Championship on playing golf on snow title was the biggest prize for an amateur golf event in the world up to now. Alongside amateur competitors, many big names from sport and showbiz were trying to sink their “Million Dollar Putt” for important causes - “Wings for Life“ (Spinal Cord Research Foundation) and “Eagles Charity Golf Club“. Twice the ball seemed destined for the hole. In the end nobody could pull off the big putt, and the prize remains unclaimed until the next championship. Adi Hengstberger (D) retained his 2007 title. The runners-up were Tristan David (Philippines) and Peter Dobrowolsky (Austria). The new women’s World Champion was Sarah Hölzl (Austria).<ref>[http://www.salzburg24.at/news/tp:salzburg24:salzburg-news/artikel/schlag-um-eine-million-dollar-bei-der-snowgolf-wm-in-obertauern/cn/news-20090202-04070587 ''Million Dollar Putt in Obertauern'']. Salzburg24, February 2nd 2009 (german)</ref>

== World Championship Results ==
{| class="wikitable"
|- class="hintergrundfarbe5"
! Year !! Event !! Date !! Place !! Champion
|-
| 1999 || Ice golf || 27.3. – 28.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Peter Masters, England
|-
| 2000 || Ice golf || || Uummannaq, Greenland || Annika Østberg, Denmark
|-
| 2001 || Ice golf || 7.4. – 8.4. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Annika Østberg, Denmark
|-
| 2002 || Ice golf || || Uummannaq, Greenland || Roger Beames, Scottland
|-
| 2003 || Ice golf || 21.3. – 23.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || cancelled due to bad weather
|-
| 2006 || Ice golf || 23.2. – 27.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Jason Cunningham, Australia
|-
| 2007<ref>[http://www.perfect4all.de/snow_golf_wm_2007_salzburg.html Report of the Schneegolf WC 2007]</ref> || Snow golf || 2.2. – 4.2. || Abtenau (Austria) || Men: Adi Hengstberger, Germany / Women: Kathi Hämpel, Austria
|-
| 2009 || Snow golf || 29.1. – 31.1. || Obertauern (Austria) || Men: Adi Hengstberger, Germany / Women: Sarah Holzl, Austria
|-
| 2009 || Ice golf || 19.3. – 24.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || |
|}

==Books==
*''Extreme Golf: The World's Most Unusual, Fantastic, and Bizarre Courses''. Duncan Lennard, Sourcebooks, 2004 (ISBN 1402203144)
*''The Caddie was a Reindeer: And Other Tales of Extreme Recreation''. Steve Rushin, Atlantic Monthly Press, 2004 (ISBN 0871138786)
*[http://www.brilliantpublishing.com/media/Articles/The%20World%20Ice%20Golf%20Championship/world_ice_golf_champ.pdf ''World Ice Gold Championship'']. Brilliant Results, März 2006, S. 50–53 (PDF)

==External links==
*[http://www.snowgolf-wm.com/2009/englisch/index.html "www.snowgolf-worldchampionship.com"]

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:forms of golf]]
[[Category:Winter sports]]

[[de:Schneegolf]]

Snow golf

2009-03-26T22:34:08Z

Papphase: added information from my german article

[[File:Snowgolf.jpg|thumb|Snow golf tournament in Argentina]]
'''Snow golf''' is a sport based on [[golf]] but played over snow (or ice) instead of grass. The "greens" are called "whites" and have an ice surface.

== History ==
[[File:Aert_van_der_Neer_-_IJsvermaak_buiten_de_stadswal_(ca._1655).jpg|thumb|Aert van der Neer, ''IJsvermaak buiten de stadswal'' (ca. 1655)]]
[[File:Avercamp-ijsvermaak.png|thumb|Hendrick Avercamp, ''A Scene on the Ice'' (ca. 1615)]]
As for classic golf the origin of snow golf is thought to be the Dutch game of "Kolf" that was played since the middle ages. Evidence for Kolf as a popular winter pastime comes from numerous 17th century paintings by renowned artist such as [[Aert van der Neer]]<ref>Aert van der Neer: [http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425190319/94842/aert-van-der-neer-a-village-in-winter-with-skaters-on-a-frozen-canal.html ''A Village in Winter with Skaters on a Frozen Canal''] (Oil on canvas, ca. 1660)</ref> or [[Hendrick Avercamp]].<ref>Hendrick Avercamp: [http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=311206 ''A Winter Scene with Two Gentlemen Playing Kolf''] (Oil on canvas, btween 1615 to 1620), Getty Museum</ref>

The discovery of modern snow golf is credited to [[Rudyard Kipling]], living in Vermont in the 1890's who was an avid golfer. While writing his famous book [[The Jungle Book]], Kipling relaxed by playing snow golf during winter.

The annual World Ice Golf Championship has been held on the world's nothernmost gilf course on the shelf ice near [[Uummannaq]], [[Greenland]] since 1997. The course is shaped new by the moving ice every year and play is highly dependent on wether conditions <ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/funny_old_game/1184073.stm ''Melting golf-courses and polar bears'']. BBC Sport Online, February 22nd, 2001</ref> Competitors are allowed at handicap 36 or below aufweisen. Because of the extreme temperature clubs with graphite shafts are not recommended.<ref>[http://www.golf-information.info/world-ice-golf-championship.html World Ice Golf Campionship] at Golfinfo</ref>

The First SnowGolf Championship in Argentina has been held in Cerro Castor, Ushuaia since 2007, by José García Daroca.<ref>[http://snowgolf.com.ar Snowgolf Argentinia]]</ref>

The first ever Snowgolf World Championship for amateurs was carried out in January 2007 in [[Abtenau]], [[Austria]]. With Adi Hengstberger from Germany, the first Snowgolf World Champion was founded. The event is hosted as a major Austrian celebrity event and sponsored by the state of Salzburg as part of the touristic scheme. The second Snowgolf World Championship took place in [[Obertauern]], Austria. Thanks to the “Million Dollar Putt” contest, the official Championship on playing golf on snow title was the biggest prize for an amateur golf event in the world up to now. Alongside amateur competitors, many big names from sport and showbiz were trying to sink their “Million Dollar Putt” for important causes - “Wings for Life“ (Spinal Cord Research Foundation) and “Eagles Charity Golf Club“. Twice the ball seemed destined for the hole. In the end nobody could pull off the big putt, and the prize remains unclaimed until the next championship. Adi Hengstberger (D) retained his 2007 title. The runners-up were Tristan David (Philippines) and Peter Dobrowolsky (Austria). The new women’s World Champion was Sarah Hölzl (Austria).<ref>[http://www.salzburg24.at/news/tp:salzburg24:salzburg-news/artikel/schlag-um-eine-million-dollar-bei-der-snowgolf-wm-in-obertauern/cn/news-20090202-04070587 ''Million Dollar Putt in Obertauern'']. Salzburg24, February 2nd 2009 (german)</ref>

== World Championship Results ==
{| class="wikitable"
|- class="hintergrundfarbe5"
! Year !! Event !! Date !! Place !! Champion
|-
| 1999 || Ice golf || 27.3. – 28.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Peter Masters, England
|-
| 2000 || Ice golf || || Uummannaq, Greenland || Annika Østberg, Denmark
|-
| 2001 || Ice golf || 7.4. – 8.4. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Annika Østberg, Denmark
|-
| 2002 || Ice golf || || Uummannaq, Greenland || Roger Beames, Scottland
|-
| 2003 || Ice golf || 21.3. – 23.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || cancelled due to bad weather
|-
| 2006 || Ice golf || 23.2. – 27.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || Jason Cunningham, Australia
|-
| 2007<ref>[http://www.perfect4all.de/snow_golf_wm_2007_salzburg.html Report of the Schneegolf WC 2007]</ref> || Snow golf || 2.2. – 4.2. || Abtenau (Austria) || Men: Adi Hengstberger, Germany / Women: Kathi Hämpel, Austria
|-
| 2009 || Snow golf || 29.1. – 31.1. || Obertauern (Austria) || Men: Adi Hengstberger, Germany / Women: Sarah Holzl, Austria
|-
| 2009 || Ice golf || 19.3. – 24.3. || Uummannaq, Greenland || |
|}

==Books==
*''Extreme Golf: The World's Most Unusual, Fantastic, and Bizarre Courses''. Duncan Lennard, Sourcebooks, 2004 (ISBN 1402203144)
*''The Caddie was a Reindeer: And Other Tales of Extreme Recreation''. Steve Rushin, Atlantic Monthly Press, 2004 (ISBN 0871138786)
*[http://www.brilliantpublishing.com/media/Articles/The%20World%20Ice%20Golf%20Championship/world_ice_golf_champ.pdf ''World Ice Gold Championship'']. Brilliant Results, März 2006, S. 50–53 (PDF)

==External links==
*[http://www.snowgolf-wm.com/2009/englisch/index.html "www.snowgolf-worldchampionship.com"]

== References ==
<references/>

[[Category:forms of golf]]
[[Category:Winter sports]]

[[de:Schneegolf]]