View source for Talk:National Institute of Technology, Rourkela

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{{Merged-from|Monday Morning (newsletter)|17 February 2021|talk=no}}

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[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] ([[User talk:BetacommandBot|talk]]) 23:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

== [[WP:INDIA]] Banner/Orissa Addition == 
Note: {{tl|WP India}} Project Banner with [[Wikipedia:WikiProject  Orissa|Orissa workgroup]] parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under [[:Category:Orissa]] or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- [[User:Amartyabag|<span style="color:#0082B8;">Amartyabag</span>]] [[User Talk:Amartyabag|<span style="color:#FF3333;"><small> <sup>TALK2ME</sup></small></span>]] 07:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

==Cleanup==
The list of departments should not include their email addresses. See [[WP:NOTRADIOGUIDE]]. --[[User:Siddhartha Ghai|Siddhartha Ghai]] ([[User talk:Siddhartha Ghai|talk]]) 15:42, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

==Assessment comment==
{{Substituted comment|length=108|lastedit=20090420235829|comment=This article falsifies a ton of information, and neglects to discuss/present information in a neutral light.}}
Substituted at 00:55, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

== Proposed merge of [[Monday Morning (newsletter)]] into [[National Institute of Technology, Rourkela]] ==
{{closed rfc top|result=There is a consensus to '''merge''' [[Monday Morning (newsletter)]] into this article. A majority of editors believe that after factoids that don't merit inclusion in an encyclopedia article are pruned (see [[WP:NOTEVERYTHING]]), the content that remains can be better treated here (where the article on the institution provides context) than as a standalone article. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">—[[User:Compassionate727|Compassionate727]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Compassionate727|T]]·[[Special:Contributions/Compassionate727|C]])</sup></span> 21:40, 16 February 2021 (UTC)}}
There was some support in the latest AfD, which has been closed with no consensus, for a merge, so I'm starting a formal discussion about that possibility. Since the AfD close, I've removed the worst of the original research and unsourced content from the article. I favour a merge because we only really have two reliable, independent sources and they are both quite old now, so there's not much to base a detailed article on. [[National Institute of Technology, Rourkela]] is not particularly detailed itself, so there's plenty of space for a section on this newsletter, which can be spun out into a separate article again if more independent sources emerge. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 10:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. For anyone who wants to review it, [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monday Morning (newsletter) (2nd nomination)|here is the AfD]]; Cordless Larry was the nominator. Merging/redirecting is [[WP:STUDENTMEDIA|what we do]] for student newspapers that are not notable enough to stand on their own. As was established at the AfD, the sources in this case [https://www.thehindu.com/features/education/college-and-university/when-a-pen-stirs-up-a-campus/article3727739.ece][https://www.newindianexpress.com/education/edex/2012/sep/17/campus-jottings-406780.html] qualify for GNG. Even after Cordless Larry's pretty severe trimming, the article is still long enough that it would be completely [[WP:UNDUE]] at the university page, where student publications generally merit at most a short paragraph. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 06:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
:*I should have been clear: what I'm advocating is a ''selective'' merge, mostly of material that is supported by reliable, independent sources. The material I trimmed was mostly unsourced or original research, but what's left is still based mainly on primary sources, many of which don't actually support the material they accompany. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 10:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. As <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> said, one can refer to the [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monday Morning (newsletter) (2nd nomination)|AfD]]. The severe trimming by [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] was not really necessary with a lot of substantial content about the history, hierarchy and projects being removed. All this could have been done after the consensus of Merge/Keep was over. Even then, removing half the article content without even discussing on the talk page is not justified according to [[WP:CAUTIOUS]] and [[WP:WPEDIT]] . A lot of sources that supported content on the page were removed too. Besides that, a section quoting notable interviews (of people who had wiki pages of their names infact) were removed despite having links to the original interview pages. Despite all of this, Monday Morning still remains a notable subject with content and sources which are more than what current standalone Wiki articles of student media bodies/ newspapers have. And I really don't get why "[[National Institute of Technology, Rourkela]] is not particularly detailed itself, so there's plenty of space for a section on this newsletter" was told by [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] because this isn't how Wikipedia works and there's no reasoning at all in the argument. What do you mean by merging the Wiki page of one of India's largest student media bodies into the Wiki page of the 16th best Engineering College in the 2nd most populous country in the world? [[User:Parzival221B|Parzival221B]] ([[User talk:Parzival221B|talk]]) 05:14, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
:*It's perfectly legitimate to remove unsourced content from articles, {{u|Parzival221B}}, as [[WP:PROVEIT]] explains. You mention that the list of notable interviews was sourced, but it was sourced to the interviews themselves. Those references demonstrate that the interviews happened, but not that they were the most notable. The latter requires a secondary source. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 09:33, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
*Pinging other AfD participants, {{u|Concertmusic}}, {{u|TimothyBlue}}, {{u|Onel5969}}, {{u|JGHowes}}, {{u|Hobit}}, {{u|czar}}, {{u|Missvain}} and {{u|Ritchie333}}, who might want to participate here. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 09:37, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
*Forgot to ping {{u|Roller26}}, {{u|Mccapra}} and {{u|Missvain}}, from the first AfD. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 16:13, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
*I'd appreciate thoughts from anyone opposing this merge on how the existing article could be made compliant with the requirement that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources" ([[WP:PSTS]]). [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 09:39, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
*:See reply below. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 14:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' very selective merge.  I agree with Sdkb that simply moving all the material from the existing article would swamp the university article.  But most of the material that remains after the very valid trimming done by Cordless Larry is trivial and minutia, such as the organization, presence, vidoes, and events sections. The remaining can be boiled down to a several sentences which could easily be added to the existing single line in the target article. [[User:onel5969|'''<span style="color:#536895;">Onel</span><span style="color:#ffb300;">5969</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Onel5969|<i style="color:blue">TT me</i>]]</sup> 13:00, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
*<s>Oppose The article, as pruned of cruft, still has enough meat on the bones (including photos) to warrant a standalone article. As to {{tq|"how the existing article could be made compliant with the requirement that 'Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources...' "}}, that was already argued at the AfD. Why rehash it again? I understand you disagree that the ''Hindu'' and ''New Indian Express'' cites suffice as SIGCOV, but that is where we differ. <i><b><small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JGHowes|<span style="color:white;background:#008000;">&nbsp;JGHowes&nbsp; </span>]]</span></small><span style="color: blue;"> <sup>[[User talk:JGHowes|''talk'']]</sup></span></b></i> 15:41, 2 January 2021 (UTC)</s>
:*This isn't about whether the two independent sources demonstrate notability, but the fact that they don't say much about the subject, leaving the article to be based on primary sources. This was discussed as a problem, but the outcome of the AfD hasn't resolved it - the article is still based largely on primary sources. If we're now saying that articles can be based almost entirely on what a subject has written about itself, then we might as well just hand Wikipedia over to conflict-of-interest editors. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 15:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. So much ink has been spilled when whoever sets down to actually write the content will not have more than a paragraph to write from the two sources under this interminable discussion. To keep the article unmerged is to support a [[WP:COATRACK|coat rack]] for reams of primary source detail unfit for an encyclopedia. <span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em sans-serif;color:#871E8D'>czar</span>]]</span> 16:39, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Thanks for the ping. I must admit that I misread/misunderstood the New Indian Express source on the first AfD and did not understand it was a multi page article that required the reader to click at the bottom to find the relevant material. If I had been clear about this I think I would have been looking for an ATD rather than !voting to delete. I completely agree with Czar’s point about coatracking in the current article. What can be supported in RIS is two sections, History and Organisation. The rest is self-sourced promotional padding that doesn’t belong here. I’m not die-in-the ditch opposed to a stand alone article consisting of those sections alone but given the enthusiasm for padding things out I’d prefer to see the material merged for the time being. If the publication continues to achieve national attention there will be a stronger case for a stand alone article in the future. [[User:Mccapra|Mccapra]] ([[User talk:Mccapra|talk]]) 17:30, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Based on what {{U|Czar}} and {{U|Mccapra}} have said about coatracking and taking into account [[WP:PSTS|PSTS]], I must agree that when all of the self-pub content is removed, this is all we are left with for the proposed merge:  &mdash; <i><b><small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JGHowes|<span style="color:white;background:#008000;">&nbsp;JGHowes&nbsp; </span>]]</span></small><span style="color: blue;"> <sup>[[User talk:JGHowes|''talk'']]</sup></span></b></i> 17:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

{{Quote box |width= 70em |border= 1px |align= center |bgcolor= #c6dbf7 |halign= left | text=''Monday Morning'', also referred to as ''MM,'' is the student e-newsletter and media platform, founded in 2006.<ref name=NIE>{{Cite news|title=Campus jottings|url=https://www.newindianexpress.com/education/edex/2012/sep/17/campus-jottings-406780.html|first=Kaviya|last=Sanjeevi|date=17 September 2012|access-date=30 December 2020|work=[[The New Indian Express]]}}</ref> It aims to bridge the gap between the administration and the student community.<ref name=Nayak>{{Cite news|last=Nayak|first=Dinesh|date=7 August 2012|title=When a pen stirs up a campus|work=[[The Hindu]]|url=https://www.thehindu.com/features/education/college-and-university/when-a-pen-stirs-up-a-campus/article3727739.ece|access-date=30 December 2020}}</ref> MM publishes an e-newsletter every week during the academic year of the institute.<ref>{{Cite news|title=Campus Journalism Helps Students Get Ahead|work=Careers360|url=https://web.scholarsavenue.org/campus-journalism-helps-students-get-ahead-ec000e15cd1c|access-date=2 January 2021}}</ref>

In its first years of operation, the issues ''MM'' covered included construction problems with the new Vikram Sarabhai Residence Hall and child labor abuse in a residence [[mess]].<ref name=NIE/><ref name=Nayak/> Its coverage of the latter attracted the attention of the Chief Warden, who "formed a team to inspect and raid all halls of residence caterers and mess owners to check on the number of children below the age {{nowrap|of 14}} working there and how they were treated".<ref name=Nayak/> 

In 2012, it was reported that the newsletter's 'Placement Life' and 'Director's Desk' columns received just under 8,000&nbsp;website hits per week.<ref name=NIE/> That year, ''[[The Hindu]]'' reported that the newsletter had three chief coordinators, whose role was to set the newsletter's agenda, guide and co-ordinate other team members, and edit articles. Writing articles was done by a content team. Four students were responsible for the newsletter's policies, new features, setting long-term goals, performing regular reviews of the newsletter and taking decisions on coverage of controversial issues. It was reported that students spent two to three hours per week each on the newsletter, using the campus computer facility.<ref name=Nayak/>{{reflist}}}}

* '''Weak Support''' Currently this is the only Indian college/university campus newspaper having its stand-alone article. However the article passes GNG by bare-bones and as mentioned above by {{u|JGHowes}} on the basis of reliable independent sources, it will be a permanent stub. Also as all the 3 independent sources are from 2012 it doesn't seem to be getting more recent coverage. If and when more independent sources become available the article can be created on a stand-alone basis. [[User:Roller26|Roller26]] ([[User talk:Roller26|talk]]) 21:44, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
*'''oppose''' Sources are fine, article is moderate.  That's not really a reason to merge.  There is nothing wrong with the article being a stub, but frankly, we can easily get a 300-500 word, neutral and good article out of the sources we have. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 22:34, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
**. Exactly. Only [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] and <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> seem to have got the point. A good article is surely possible with all the original content. Now suppose we had the list of notable interviews that [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] removed with a lot of other content. How can you expect the interview to have sources other than the interview link itself? I mean this is too severe. I've seen many pages that have a large proportion of content without references because that's fine. Times change, so does the content of an article. If this kind of editing is done, half of Wikipedia would vanish and the other half would be so dated that it would render the content irrelevant. Let the article remain a stub if you want it to be. But the merging will create a wrong perception that Monday Morning isn't independent and that it comes under the purview of the institute, which again is completely false. [[User:Parzival221B|Parzival221B]] ([[User talk:Parzival221B|talk]]) 05:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
* Here is another small reference to Monday Morning by JoSAA (Joint Seat Allocation Authority) a government agency established by the Ministry of Education to showcase institute profiles of IITs, NITs, and IIITs for prospective students. It clearly recognizes Monday Morning and no other club/organization in the institute because of its sheer importance:  https://josaa.nic.in/seatinfo/root/InstProfile.aspx?instcd=223
* Monday Morning has a huge amount of information on its website and apps that even other media bodies use (like https://www.bhubaneswarbuzz.com/updates/industries/startup-by-odisha-based-nit-rourkela-in-top-20-of-innovate-for-digital-india-2015-contest) [[User:Parzival221B|Parzival221B]] ([[User talk:Parzival221B|talk]]) 05:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Cordless Larry asked above about how it would be possible to get a standalone article to comply with PSTS. PSTS establishes that we shouldn't be using primary sources for huge portions of a page or for controversial statements like the newspaper's reputation. It does not, however, require that we completely eliminate all information derived from primary sources. Our rules for what counts as a qualifier for notability vs. what counts as reliable are different, and per [[WP:ABOUTSELF]] and other policies it's okay to use primary sources to establish basic facts like the location of the newsroom or the annual budget. It'd be perfectly possible to construct a decent article that uses the secondary sources to cite the publication's reputation and fills out the more basic details with primary sources. It won't be a super long article at that point, but it'll still be significantly longer than the one short paragraph that would be due at the university page (looking at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Higher_education#National_differences|examples of university FAs]], many only devote a single sentence to the newspaper of record), and demanding that all [[WP:Permastub|permastubs]] have the potential to become long FAs would be a signifant heightening of our notability standards. The nominator and some others here are clearly not pleased with the AfD result, but it's time to move on. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 14:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
:*It's not that I'm displeased with the result of the AfD, but that the closing statement of the AfD suggested a separate discussion about the merits of a merge. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 14:23, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
:** That's a pretty biased closing statement for an AfD in which we had 4 Keeps, 1 Delete, and 2 Merge suggestions. [[User:Parzival221B|Parzival221B]] ([[User talk:Parzival221B|talk]]) 07:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
:::*You've failed to count my nomination there, {{u|Parzival221B}}, but in any case, AfDs aren't numerical votes. The strength of arguments is also taken into account, so I presume that {{u|Ritchie333}} placed little weight on one of the keep opinions, which basically amounted to an argument that effort had gone into the article so it shouldn't be deleted, when assessing the consensus. However, if you want to challenge the result, you'd have to do so at [[Wikipedia:Deletion review]]. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 09:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
::::*I don't think that's a fair characterization of the keep votes (says a keep !voter).  It's that there were sources that met WP:N.  And to the point, there is nothing wrong with using reliable, primary sources for parts of the article. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 14:26, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
:::::*It wasn't intended as such, {{u|Hobit}}. It was a description of one specific keep vote, to illustrate to Parzival221B that the closer doesn't simply count up the votes but instead has to assess the weight of the arguments. [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 14:52, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
::::::*My bad, I saw "opinions" and missed "one of the" some how.  My critical reading skills need some work it appears. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 16:47, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
* '''Support''' Even trimmed down, per [[secondary source]] ([[WP:PSTS|SOURCING]]) guidlines, the article should be merged per [[wp:Inherited|NOT INHERITED]].  Almost half the references are marginal at best, and inheritantly unreliable (re: YouTube, Facebook).  This is a non-print student publication, not a "newspaper".  Very weak on any proven notability, per the above.  If needed, I would be glad to do the merge, just ping.  [[User:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;"><i>G</i>en<i>Q</i>uest</span>]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">"scribble"</span>]]</sup></small> 04:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
{{closed rfc bottom}}