View source for Talk:The Armorer

{{Article history
|action1 = GAN
|action1date = 20:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
|action1link = /GA1
|action1result = promoted
|action1oldid = 955792782
|action2 = GTC
|action2date = 02:21, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
|action2link = Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/List of The Mandalorian characters/archive1
|action2result = promoted
|ftname=Characters from The Mandalorian
|currentstatus = GA
|topic=Media and drama|dyk1date=5 March 2020|dyk1entry=... that [[Emily Swallow]] did not know that she was auditioning for [[The Mandalorian|a ''Star Wars'' television series]] when she tried out for the part of '''[[The Armorer (Star Wars)|the Armorer]]'''?|dyk1nom=Template:Did you know nominations/The Armorer (Star Wars)
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA|
{{WikiProject Star Wars|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Television}}
{{WikiProject Fictional characters}}
{{WikiProject Science Fiction|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Women}}
}}

==Did you know nomination==
{{Did you know nominations/The Armorer (Star Wars)}}

{{Talk:The Armorer/GA1}}

== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* [[commons:File:Star Wars and the Power of Costume July 2018 28 (Boba Fett's costume, helmet, and jetpack from Episode VI).jpg|Star Wars and the Power of Costume July 2018 28 (Boba Fett's costume, helmet, and jetpack from Episode VI).jpg]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2020-06-12T12:53:39.516294 | Star Wars and the Power of Costume July 2018 28 (Boba Fett's costume, helmet, and jetpack from Episode VI).jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussion at the [[commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Boba Fett|nomination page]]. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 12:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

== [[Lauren Mary Kim]] ==

Stunt performer [[Lauren Mary Kim]] discusses the fight scene as the Armorer as part of a video reacting to other stunts.[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Oa4rCROXM] She repeats some things that have already been mentioned (that the figthing style was Kali/Escrima etc) but I don't think it has been mentioned elsewhere that the scene was filmed by the 2nd unit and directed by [[Dave Filoni]]. The relevant part of the video runs from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Oa4rCROXM?t=300 5 minute mark] to about 8 minutes, as the conversation moves on to other topics. -- [[Special:Contributions/109.77.210.97|109.77.210.97]] ([[User talk:109.77.210.97|talk]]) 09:44, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
: According to Kim the it was the hardest fight scene she'd ever done (because of the armor) and it was filmed repeatedly from multiple angles but as as [[One-shot film|one long single take]]. 
: I want to add this to the article already but I was still hoping to find a secondary reference that is text rather than video. -- [[Special:Contributions/109.76.214.105|109.76.214.105]] ([[User talk:109.76.214.105|talk]]) 18:07, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

== Notability ==

I have not officially marked this article to be of questionable notability, primarily because I am a new editor and do not know how, but also because I do not think it is harmful for this article to exist. However, I would question why this particular character, who appears in only a handful of scenes, has such a detailed page compared to characters in this and other franchises.
[[User:Scansoriopteryx|Scansoriopteryx]] ([[User talk:Scansoriopteryx|talk]]) 02:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
: The Wikipedia idea of "notable" and what people think of as notable are not necessarily the same thing, but also pages are created by people who are interested enough to put in the time and effort. All the details are in the [[WP:NOTABILITY]] guidelines. Editors have put in a lot of work find sources and to achieve "Good article" status and as you say there's no harm in this article existing. The lack of detail for other franchises or tv series compared to this one doesn't make this article any more or less notable, and plenty of editors already complain that pop-culture articles get far more care and attention than articles about science or important historical topics. 
: Good articles (and Feature articles) are often still far from perfect so if there are flaws you can still point them out, usually by adding {{tl|Citation needed}} (if something does not have a reference) or {{tl|Better source needed}} (if something has a low quality reference such a fansite instead a more reliable source). -- [[Special:Contributions/109.76.214.105|109.76.214.105]] ([[User talk:109.76.214.105|talk]]) 18:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

== Requested move 7 March 2022 ==
{{move review talk|date=15 March 2022|result=Decision endorsed}}
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Not Moved'''  [[User:Mike Cline|Mike Cline]] ([[User talk:Mike Cline|talk]]) 16:37, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
----

[[:The Armorer]] → {{no redirect|Armorer (Star Wars)}} – Per [[WP:NCTHE]], the leading "The" is discouraged. Specifically, {{xt|If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the Wikipedia article name. '''Otherwise, do not.'''}} In official sources, including [https://www.starwars.com/news/rocklove-women-of-star-wars-release-exclusive-reveal StarWars.com], the definite article in the character's name is not capitalized except at the beginning of a sentence, e.g. "A little like the Armorer herself, Cimino designs unique, highly-detailed, and often articulated pieces of jewelry". On [https://www.starwars.com/databank/amorer-s-equipment this page], the article is actually split from the noun as well, "Hidden far below the surface of the planet Nevarro, the deftly skilled Armorer's cryo-furnace still burns". [[User:Axem Titanium|Axem Titanium]] ([[User talk:Axem Titanium|talk]]) 14:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

:'''Oppose''': Per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], and [[Talk:The Mandalorian (character)]]. The credits do not say "Armorer", they say "The Armorer". That second sentence is basic grammar. One would not say "the deftly-skilled The Armorer", but that does not go against them being named "The Armorer". Pretty much all of the articles on the character also refer to "The Armorer" as portrayed by [[Emily Swallow]] (with Lauren Mary Kim), not "Armorer". [[User:MandoWarrior|MandoWarrior]] ([[User talk:MandoWarrior|talk]]) 15:32, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
::[[WP:NCTHE]] explicitly discusses this situation. Since "the" is not capitalized in the middle of a sentence when referring to the character, the "the" should be omitted from the title. [[User:Axem Titanium|Axem Titanium]] ([[User talk:Axem Titanium|talk]]) 19:39, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
*'''Support''' mainly because the inclusion of disambiguator "(Star Wars)". The character's name is way too vague and generic that I wouldn't think the name "the Armorer" is exclusively for the Mandalorian character. [[User:Neocorelight|Neocorelight]] ([[User talk:Neocorelight|Talk]]) 20:07, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
::{{u|Neocorelight}} The main point of this debate is whether "the" should be included in the title. The inclusion of Star Wars in the alternate title is just a side effect of it being less [[WP:PRECISION|precise]]. <span style="color:green;">[[User:JDDJS|<span style="color:green;">JDDJS</span>]] ([[User talk:JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">talk to me</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">see what I've done</span>]])</span> 01:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC) 
:::I disagree the inclusion of (Star Wars) is making it less precise. If anything it makes the subject unambigous to readers before opening the article. I have no opinion on the inclusion of "the". [[User:Neocorelight|Neocorelight]] ([[User talk:Neocorelight|Talk]]) 01:45, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
::::{{u|Neocorelight}} So having no opinion on the inclusion of "the", you would just as much support a move to [[The Armorer (Star Wars)|The Armorer (''Star Wars'')]] as [[Armorer (Star Wars)|Armorer (''Star Wars'')]]? It does not matter to you either way? [[User:Poindextero|Poindextero]] ([[User talk:Poindextero|talk]]) 01:50, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Poindextero}}, after reading it side-by-side I think "[[The Armorer (Star Wars)]]" read better because it indicates a specific character instead of an occupation. But again, I have no strong opinion on it. [[User:Neocorelight|Neocorelight]] ([[User talk:Neocorelight|Talk]]) 01:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
::::::{{u|Neocorelight}} This move discussion is about the "The", and will likely be moved to "[[The Armorer (Star Wars)|The Armorer (''Star Wars'')]]" anyway: so you would be opposed to "[[Armorer (Star Wars)|Armorer (''Star Wars'')]]" in favour "[[The Armorer (Star Wars)|The Armorer (''Star Wars'')]]", even if not particularly strongly? [[User:Poindextero|Poindextero]] ([[User talk:Poindextero|talk]]) 16:49, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
:::::::I have explained my opinion, and it was clear. Geez, stop asking me to reiterate it. [[User:Neocorelight|Neocorelight]] ([[User talk:Neocorelight|Talk]]) 22:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per {{u|JDDJS}} and [[Talk:The Client (Star Wars)#Requested move 7 March 2022]]. [[User:Poindextero|Poindextero]] ([[User talk:Poindextero|talk]]) 00:54, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
**You can't say "per JDDJS" if JDDJS hasn't commented on this discussion. [[WP:OTHERCONTENT|Make an argument about the page at hand instead of vaguely gesturing at other stuff]]. [[User:Axem Titanium|Axem Titanium]] ([[User talk:Axem Titanium|talk]]) 01:02, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
***Okay. The quoted argument about the page is: "''{{u|Axem Titanium}} I remember you. You pulled this [[Talk:The Mandalorian (character)#Requested move 10 December 2020|in 2020]] too. Paraphrasing the response from {{u|JDDJS}}: "She is referred to as "the Armorer" in most media, not just Armorer. Also including "the" makes it clear that it's about a specific Armorer, and not just armorers in general."'' [[User:Poindextero|Poindextero]] ([[User talk:Poindextero|talk]]) 01:11, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
****The fact that this character is commonly referred to as "the Armorer", with a lower case t, perfectly fits the guideline in [[WP:NCTHE]] to omit the definite article from the article title. [[User:Axem Titanium|Axem Titanium]] ([[User talk:Axem Titanium|talk]]) 01:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' {{u|Poindextero}} has already done an accurate assessment of my feelings on the matter. Also, per [[WP:PRECISION]]. <span style="color:green;">[[User:JDDJS|<span style="color:green;">JDDJS</span>]] ([[User talk:JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">talk to me</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">see what I've done</span>]])</span> 01:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
**PRECISION is a fairly long section. Can you point to the specific line in PRECISION that explains why "The Armorer" is the correct article title, in contradiction with the recommendation from [[WP:NCTHE]] that I quoted above? [[User:Axem Titanium|Axem Titanium]] ([[User talk:Axem Titanium|talk]]) 01:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
***'''Comment''' I would not be opposed to it being changed to [[The Armorer (Star Wars)|The Armorer (''Star Wars'')]] if PRECISION is an issue like {{u|Neocorelight}} said.
:::Are there any other fictional characters called "The Armorer" they could be confused with? [[User:Poindextero|Poindextero]] ([[User talk:Poindextero|talk]]) 01:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

:::If someone can name any specific characters that this could be confused with, I would not at all be opposed to adding (Star Wars) to the title. But as far as I know, there really aren't any other popular characters that this could be confused with. There's already a link for the actual profession, and I think that the number of people looking for the profession who would include "the" in their search is extremely small.  <span style="color:green;">[[User:JDDJS|<span style="color:green;">JDDJS</span>]] ([[User talk:JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">talk to me</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">see what I've done</span>]])</span> 01:53, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
::::Not that there needs to be for this move to take place, but there appears to be a minor Marvel comics character, a character in No Man's Sky, a character in Person of Interest, etc. The move as requested is within policy regardless of the existence or nonexistence of other characters called "the Armorer". [[User:Axem Titanium|Axem Titanium]] ([[User talk:Axem Titanium|talk]]) 01:55, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
:::::No, there does need to be, but that should be enough (as long as they are mentioned elsewhere on Wikipedia). [[User:Poindextero|Poindextero]] ([[User talk:Poindextero|talk]]) 02:06, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. It seems like the removal of the "the" is what policy dictates per [[WP:NCTHE]] and I don't see adequate arguments why we should not follow it. Mirroring my comments over at [[Talk:The Client (Star Wars)]], there should probably be a discussion about "The" Mandalorian too, since none of the discussions over there have specifically focused on the "The" besides a speedy revert after it was removed in December 2020. --[[User:Cerebral726|Cerebral726]] ([[User talk:Cerebral726|talk]]) 13:53, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
::I agree and I'm frustrated the speed of the discussion at the Mandalorian page because it was closed in under 24 hours without even getting a {{tl|ping}}. People here are pointing to it as if I did something ''wrong'' but I (correctly) referenced [[WP:NCTHE]] in my move rationale so I don't appreciate being painted as doing an "undiscussed move" without even a chance to respond. [[User:Axem Titanium|Axem Titanium]] ([[User talk:Axem Titanium|talk]]) 20:30, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
:[[WP:NCTHE]] states "If a term with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same term without the article, the term with the article can be used as the name of a Wikipedia article about that meaning, and the term without the article can be used as the name of a separate Wikipedia article." Armorer on its own could just refer to anyone who makes armor in Star Wars. Adding "the" to the title makes it clear that the article is about a specific character. <span style="color:green;">[[User:JDDJS|<span style="color:green;">JDDJS</span>]] ([[User talk:JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">talk to me</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/JDDJS|<span style="color:purple;">see what I've done</span>]])</span> 18:34, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
::[[WP:NCTHE]] cautions {{xt|There are some situations where they are warranted, but many where they are not. When used inappropriately, they violate common usage, only serving as noise words. More importantly, this can cause problems with the length of the name, the quick search function, and sorting. Due to these problems, the default rule is to ''exclude'' them}}, which indicates that the potential for confusion must be extraordinary to warrant including an extraneous in/definite article in the title. By your own logic above, there would need to be at least one other character in Star Wars with the name of Armorer for there to be any confusion on the matter. If a reader were looking for armorers in general in Star Wars, then that confusion would be dispelled instantly by reading the first line of the article. Inventing an imagined reader who is looking for armorers in general, but not ''this'' Armorer, is a tortured line of argument. [[User:Axem Titanium|Axem Titanium]] ([[User talk:Axem Titanium|talk]]) 20:42, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Neocorelight. It reads better because it indicates a specific character instead of an occupation. [[User:Hamzabdul|Hamzabdul]] ([[User talk:Hamzabdul|talk]]) 13:32, 10 March 2022 (UTC) <small>— [[User:Hamzabdul|Hamzabdul]] ([[User talk:Hamzabdul|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/Hamzabdul|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>
*'''Oppose'''. My reading of [[WP:NCTHE]] is that this is a case in which it is preferred to include the article. And I think the convention is correct in this. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 09:38, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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