Talk:Tostan - Revision history

Qwerfjkl (bot): Implementing WP:PIQA (Task 26)

2024-02-11T14:00:12Z

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	{{WikiProject Health ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject Health and fitness\|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Human rights ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject Human rights \|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Women ~~\|class=C~~}}		{{WikiProject Women }}
	{{WikiProject United States ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject United States \|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Organizations ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject Organizations \|importance=Low}}
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Sbbarker19: Assessment: +Organizations (C/Low) (Rater)

2019-07-18T22:34:23Z

Assessment: +Organizations (C/Low) (Rater)

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Sbbarker19: Assessment: +United States (C/Low) (Rater)

2019-07-18T22:34:13Z

Assessment: +United States (C/Low) (Rater)

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Sbbarker19: Assessment: Africa (C/Low); Health (C/Low); Human rights (C/Low); Women (C) (Rater)

2019-07-18T22:34:02Z

Assessment: Africa (C/Low); Health (C/Low); Human rights (C/Low); Women (C) (Rater)

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	{{WikiProject Africa \|Senegal=yes}}		{{WikiProject Africa \|Senegal=yes \|class=C \|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Health}}		{{WikiProject Health \|class=C \|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Human rights}}		{{WikiProject Human rights \|class=C \|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Women}}		{{WikiProject Women \|class=C}}
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	== Cutting or mutilation? ==		== Cutting or mutilation? ==

Innisfree987: adding wiki projects

2016-09-17T01:28:37Z

adding wiki projects

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	== Cutting or mutilation? ==		== Cutting or mutilation? ==

Huon: /* Cutting or mutilation? */ comment

2015-02-16T21:06:01Z

Cutting or mutilation?: comment

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	{{Helped}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		{{Helped}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	::It looks like the conversation is proceeding just fine, the help template is not a tool to recruit more opinions on a topic. I would suggest asking at the project above for more comments or views.- [[User:Mcmatter\|McMatter]] <sup>([[User talk:Mcmatter\|talk]])</sup>/<sub>([[Special:Contributions/Mcmatter\|contrib]])</sub> 20:28, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		::It looks like the conversation is proceeding just fine, the help template is not a tool to recruit more opinions on a topic. I would suggest asking at the project above for more comments or views.- [[User:Mcmatter\|McMatter]] <sup>([[User talk:Mcmatter\|talk]])</sup>/<sub>([[Special:Contributions/Mcmatter\|contrib]])</sub> 20:28, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
			:::This is a somewhat murky issue. Wikipedia should follow what third-party sources report. The problem here is that third-party sources in the article are scarce, with most of it based solely on Tostan's publications. The US State Department uses "genital mutilation", the UN and Reuters use "circumcision", while Reuters also uses "cutting". I looked for additional sources, and they are an equally mixed bag: [http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2013/aug/22/social-network-fmg-senegal The Guardian] goes with "mutilation", [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/world/africa/movement-to-end-genital-cutting-spreads-in-senegal.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 The New York Times] primarily uses "cutting", [http://abcnews.go.com/Health/international-day-tolerance-female-genital-mutilation-hosted-hillary/story?id=15683580 ABC] uses both interchangeably, and so on. [http://tostan.org/blog/fgc-fgm-female-circumcision-why-language-matters-helping-communities-abandon-harmful-practices Tostan] itself says it uses "cutting" because it makes for more effective campaigning, but acknowledges that "mutilation" is the more common term. So there is some justification for either of the three terms. However, Wikipedia is not concerned with campaigning, Tostan itself agrees that FGM is the more common term, and it's the title of our article and category anyway. For these reasons, going with "mutilation" here seems appropriate. [[User:Huon\|Huon]] ([[User talk:Huon\|talk]]) 21:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Mcmatter: Keep going

2015-02-16T20:28:54Z

Keep going

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	:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	::Note: ([[User:Donahuec]] has a similar [[Special:Contributions/Donahuec\|contribution history]]. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 20:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		::Note: ([[User:Donahuec]] has a similar [[Special:Contributions/Donahuec\|contribution history]]. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 20:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	{{~~HelpMe~~}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		{{Helped}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
			::It looks like the conversation is proceeding just fine, the help template is not a tool to recruit more opinions on a topic. I would suggest asking at the project above for more comments or views.- [[User:Mcmatter\|McMatter]] <sup>([[User talk:Mcmatter\|talk]])</sup>/<sub>([[Special:Contributions/Mcmatter\|contrib]])</sub> 20:28, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Mathglot: /* Cutting or mutilation? */ User:Donahuec has a similar ([[User:Donahuec has a similar contribution history.

2015-02-16T20:00:51Z

Cutting or mutilation?: User:Donahuec has a similar [[(User:Donahuec has a similar contribution history.

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	:First of all, '''mutilation''' certainly does not imply any intent to harm; bodies mutilated in a car wreck for example. Secondly, it is not 'a more accurate way of describing' the phenomenon, as not just cutting is involved but various other procedures, including suturing for example. '''Mutilate''' is defined as ''Inflict a violent and disfiguring injury on; the leg was badly mutilated'' (New Oxford American Dict. 2001) and that sounds very much like what happens with infibulation. Third, and most importantly, the fact that Tostan may use alternative terms such as '''FGC''' and '''cutting''' is irrelevant; WP articles are encyclopedic and must maintain [[NPOV]] and must not be modified to reflect the opinion of the subject of the article.		:First of all, '''mutilation''' certainly does not imply any intent to harm; bodies mutilated in a car wreck for example. Secondly, it is not 'a more accurate way of describing' the phenomenon, as not just cutting is involved but various other procedures, including suturing for example. '''Mutilate''' is defined as ''Inflict a violent and disfiguring injury on; the leg was badly mutilated'' (New Oxford American Dict. 2001) and that sounds very much like what happens with infibulation. Third, and most importantly, the fact that Tostan may use alternative terms such as '''FGC''' and '''cutting''' is irrelevant; WP articles are encyclopedic and must maintain [[NPOV]] and must not be modified to reflect the opinion of the subject of the article.

	:In addition, User 41.82.10.166 has [[Special:Contributions/41.82.10.166\|contributed to only one article]] on WP, viz. the one on [[Tostan]] and the IP address traces to Dakar, Senegal, which is the location of the international headquarters of Tostan.		:In addition, User 41.82.10.166 has [[Special:Contributions/41.82.10.166\|contributed to only one article]] on WP, viz. the one on [[Tostan]] and the IP address traces to Dakar, Senegal, which is the location of the international headquarters of Tostan.

	:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
			::Note: ([[User:Donahuec]] has a similar [[Special:Contributions/Donahuec\|contribution history]]. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 20:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	{{HelpMe}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		{{HelpMe}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Mathglot: /* Cutting or mutilation? */ Requesting help on this proposed revert.

2015-02-16T19:50:39Z

Cutting or mutilation?: Requesting help on this proposed revert.

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	:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
			{{HelpMe}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Mathglot: /* Cutting or mutilation? */ Article previously used terms 'FGM' and 'mutilation', was changed to 'FGC/cutting' in edit 497077291, and should probably be reverted per WP:NPOV and WP:COI.

2015-02-16T19:42:23Z

Cutting or mutilation?: Article previously used terms 'FGM' and 'mutilation', was changed to 'FGC/cutting' in edit 497077291, and should probably be reverted per WP:NPOV and WP:COI.

← Previous revision		Revision as of 19:42, 16 February 2015
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	As a first step, I'll hyperlink the existing text in the article without changing the 'cutting' terminology and let the redirect handle it, but shouldn't we actually just change them all to 'mutilation'? [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 18:54, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		As a first step, I'll hyperlink the existing text in the article without changing the 'cutting' terminology and let the redirect handle it, but shouldn't we actually just change them all to 'mutilation'? [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 18:54, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

			:Okay, it looks like the article [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tostan&oldid=477324577 previously] used the standard terminology, until [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tostan&diff=497077291&oldid=477324577 this edit] by [[User:41.82.10.166]] with the summary
			:<blockquote>''Terminology changed: female genital mutilation to female genital cutting. Reflects terminology used by Tostan and is more accurate way of describing phenomenon (mutilation implies intention to harm).'')</blockquote>
			:First of all, '''mutilation''' certainly does not imply any intent to harm; bodies mutilated in a car wreck for example. Secondly, it is not 'a more accurate way of describing' the phenomenon, as not just cutting is involved but various other procedures, including suturing for example. '''Mutilate''' is defined as ''Inflict a violent and disfiguring injury on; the leg was badly mutilated'' (New Oxford American Dict. 2001) and that sounds very much like what happens with infibulation. Third, and most importantly, the fact that Tostan may use alternative terms such as '''FGC''' and '''cutting''' is irrelevant; WP articles are encyclopedic and must maintain [[NPOV]] and must not be modified to reflect the opinion of the subject of the article.

			:In addition, User 41.82.10.166 has [[Special:Contributions/41.82.10.166\|contributed to only one article]] on WP, viz. the one on [[Tostan]] and the IP address traces to Dakar, Senegal, which is the location of the international headquarters of Tostan.

			:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

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	{{WikiProject Africa \|Senegal=yes ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject Africa \|Senegal=yes \|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Health ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject Health and fitness\|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Human rights ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject Human rights \|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Women ~~\|class=C~~}}		{{WikiProject Women }}
	{{WikiProject United States ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject United States \|importance=Low}}
	{{WikiProject Organizations ~~\|class=C~~ \|importance=Low}}		{{WikiProject Organizations \|importance=Low}}
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← Previous revision		Revision as of 21:06, 16 February 2015
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	{{Helped}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		{{Helped}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	::It looks like the conversation is proceeding just fine, the help template is not a tool to recruit more opinions on a topic. I would suggest asking at the project above for more comments or views.- [[User:Mcmatter\|McMatter]] <sup>([[User talk:Mcmatter\|talk]])</sup>/<sub>([[Special:Contributions/Mcmatter\|contrib]])</sub> 20:28, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		::It looks like the conversation is proceeding just fine, the help template is not a tool to recruit more opinions on a topic. I would suggest asking at the project above for more comments or views.- [[User:Mcmatter\|McMatter]] <sup>([[User talk:Mcmatter\|talk]])</sup>/<sub>([[Special:Contributions/Mcmatter\|contrib]])</sub> 20:28, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
			:::This is a somewhat murky issue. Wikipedia should follow what third-party sources report. The problem here is that third-party sources in the article are scarce, with most of it based solely on Tostan's publications. The US State Department uses "genital mutilation", the UN and Reuters use "circumcision", while Reuters also uses "cutting". I looked for additional sources, and they are an equally mixed bag: [http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2013/aug/22/social-network-fmg-senegal The Guardian] goes with "mutilation", [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/world/africa/movement-to-end-genital-cutting-spreads-in-senegal.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 The New York Times] primarily uses "cutting", [http://abcnews.go.com/Health/international-day-tolerance-female-genital-mutilation-hosted-hillary/story?id=15683580 ABC] uses both interchangeably, and so on. [http://tostan.org/blog/fgc-fgm-female-circumcision-why-language-matters-helping-communities-abandon-harmful-practices Tostan] itself says it uses "cutting" because it makes for more effective campaigning, but acknowledges that "mutilation" is the more common term. So there is some justification for either of the three terms. However, Wikipedia is not concerned with campaigning, Tostan itself agrees that FGM is the more common term, and it's the title of our article and category anyway. For these reasons, going with "mutilation" here seems appropriate. [[User:Huon\|Huon]] ([[User talk:Huon\|talk]]) 21:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

← Previous revision		Revision as of 20:28, 16 February 2015
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	:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	::Note: ([[User:Donahuec]] has a similar [[Special:Contributions/Donahuec\|contribution history]]. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 20:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		::Note: ([[User:Donahuec]] has a similar [[Special:Contributions/Donahuec\|contribution history]]. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 20:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	{{~~HelpMe~~}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		{{Helped}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
			::It looks like the conversation is proceeding just fine, the help template is not a tool to recruit more opinions on a topic. I would suggest asking at the project above for more comments or views.- [[User:Mcmatter\|McMatter]] <sup>([[User talk:Mcmatter\|talk]])</sup>/<sub>([[Special:Contributions/Mcmatter\|contrib]])</sub> 20:28, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

← Previous revision		Revision as of 20:00, 16 February 2015
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	:First of all, '''mutilation''' certainly does not imply any intent to harm; bodies mutilated in a car wreck for example. Secondly, it is not 'a more accurate way of describing' the phenomenon, as not just cutting is involved but various other procedures, including suturing for example. '''Mutilate''' is defined as ''Inflict a violent and disfiguring injury on; the leg was badly mutilated'' (New Oxford American Dict. 2001) and that sounds very much like what happens with infibulation. Third, and most importantly, the fact that Tostan may use alternative terms such as '''FGC''' and '''cutting''' is irrelevant; WP articles are encyclopedic and must maintain [[NPOV]] and must not be modified to reflect the opinion of the subject of the article.		:First of all, '''mutilation''' certainly does not imply any intent to harm; bodies mutilated in a car wreck for example. Secondly, it is not 'a more accurate way of describing' the phenomenon, as not just cutting is involved but various other procedures, including suturing for example. '''Mutilate''' is defined as ''Inflict a violent and disfiguring injury on; the leg was badly mutilated'' (New Oxford American Dict. 2001) and that sounds very much like what happens with infibulation. Third, and most importantly, the fact that Tostan may use alternative terms such as '''FGC''' and '''cutting''' is irrelevant; WP articles are encyclopedic and must maintain [[NPOV]] and must not be modified to reflect the opinion of the subject of the article.

	:In addition, User 41.82.10.166 has [[Special:Contributions/41.82.10.166\|contributed to only one article]] on WP, viz. the one on [[Tostan]] and the IP address traces to Dakar, Senegal, which is the location of the international headquarters of Tostan.		:In addition, User 41.82.10.166 has [[Special:Contributions/41.82.10.166\|contributed to only one article]] on WP, viz. the one on [[Tostan]] and the IP address traces to Dakar, Senegal, which is the location of the international headquarters of Tostan.

	:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		:I'm inclined now to revert edit 497077291 as a violation of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:COI]] but welcome comments. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
			::Note: ([[User:Donahuec]] has a similar [[Special:Contributions/Donahuec\|contribution history]]. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 20:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	{{HelpMe}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)		{{HelpMe}} Comments on reverting the edit described above in section '''Cutting or mutilation?''' would be helpful. [[User:Mathglot\|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot\|talk]]) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)