Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group): Difference between revisions

Macedonian art

Sculpture and installation artists Gligor Stefanov and Petre Nikoloski were the first to represent an independant Macedonia in the Venice Biennale in 1993.

Symbols

The whole section "Symbols" is undue. About half the Macedonians live outside North Macedonia, so the national symbols of the state can not be seen as representing the whole ethnic group. Actually, the ethnic group is not even mentioned in the section. It is all about the state. --T*U (talk) 18:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree that state symbols should not be listed, but the Vergina Sun is indeed used by ethnic Macedonians globally. For example, Pustec Municipality, Albania, OMO Ilinden Pirin, Bulgaria, the World Macedonian Congress, and Rockdale_Ilinden FC in Australia all feature the Vergina Sun in their emblems/logos. This widespread use by ethnic Macedonian groups should be noted on the article. --Local hero ^talk 04:06, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

The Vergina Sun is a symbol proposed as a flag by the nationalist Todor Petrov and was used as a flag between 1992 and 1995. It's not an official symbol anymore, now used mainly by some nationalists of North Macedonia and its diaspora. North Macedonia is in the process of removing the symbol from all public areas, institutions, and monuments in the country, per the Prespa Agreement. It does not have a place in this article, the main article is enough. Macedonian (talk) 06:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Local hero that mention of the Vergina Star may be due. The fact that it is not official is really not an argument against, as long as it is widely used, especially in the diaspora. The presentation would have to be carefully worded in order to explain its maverick nature and not give an impression of officiality or even semi-officiality, as was the case with the section I removed. --T*U (talk) 07:35, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure how legally sound the above proposal is. In February 1993 the Greek parliament passed a bill designating the Vergina Sun as an official Greek national symbol. In July 1995, Greece lodged a claim for trademark protection of the Vergina Sun as an official state emblem under Article 6ter of the Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property with the World Intellectual Property Organization. The Prespa agreement from 2018 stipulates the removal of the Vergina Sun from public use in North Macedonia. In a session held on early July 2019, the government of North Macedonia announced the complete removal of the Vergina Sun from all public areas, institutions and monuments in the country, with the deadline for its removal being set to 12 August 2019. Historical myths fanned by some nationalist circles cannot justify the legalization of certain unsubstantiated allegations. See: Antiquization. Jingiby (talk) 09:41, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Seriously? I fail to see how Greek or Macedonian legislation in any way could prevent Wikipedia from mentioning the use of the symbol by nationalists (or football clubs, for that matter). And legalization? C'mon, Wikipedia is not that powerful. --T*U (talk) 10:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

We should steer clear from reflecting nationalist propaganda and far-right ideologies across Wikipedia's articles. The use of the Vergina Sun by far-right nationalist Macedonians is already well-documented and reflected on the appropriate articles on the matter, such as: Antiquization and Macedonian nationalism. IMO, that's more than enough and provides the readers the necessary info about the nationalist ideology behind the flag's use. The last thing we need now is to have this nationalist propaganda's symbols being reflected outside of context, even on articles about the people (whose majority, mind you, does not agree/adopt this far-right ideology). In Wikipedia we have been careful so far as to not list nationalist propaganda symbols in any way out of the context for what they are about, no matter how popular it may be among a segment of people and in the diaspora (percentage of population, etc). Because this would falsely imply that this is a national symbol and not a political ideology, which isn't true.

Is important that Wikipedia doesn't give the far-right political ideologies more spotlight than needed, nor portray them as being national ideologies when there isn't the case. This is true not only for the Macedonians but other nations too. For example, the article of the Turkish people avoids using Grey Wolf symbols, even though 11% of the Turks (2019 poll) endorse the far-right ideology and even have adopted the Grey wolf symbol (finger gestures, tattoos, banners and more). Same for the article of the Germans which avoids listing the swastika as their symbol today even though far-right nationalist Germans (which constitute roughly 5% to 8% of the total population, depending on what sources you look at) are still using it (flags, tattoos, etc). Like wise, the symbol of Greater Albania from the article Albanians, which is pretty popular among Albanian nationalists, and so on. We should be careful and acknowledge that Wikipedia has already covered the issue of the Macedonian nationalism adequately and its symbols such as the Vergina flag, and if there is new information to add about it, this can be done, not here about the people themselves, but on the relevant articles: Antiquization and Macedonian nationalism. TL;DR: Ideologies should not be mixed with people. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure that swastika and grey wolf are really relevant examples. I do not remember having seen any of them used in emblems of diaspora football clubs or in official emblems of municipalities in neighbouring countries. --T*U (talk) 12:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

The diaspora and Macedonian minority groups in neighboring countries have no obligations to the things you mentioned. Kromid (talk) 11:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Macedonian, Jingiby, and SilentResident. Furthermore, i believe that MOS:Icons#Political_issues also relates. Demetrios1993 (talk) 11:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

This is silly. Official legislation of any country has nothing to do with the fact that so many ethnic Macedonians use the symbol. Anecdotally, I own such a flag and can't recall attending a Macedonian wedding that didn't have one displayed. If the Vergina Sun is only used by nationalists, then most every ethnic Macedonian association in the world is nationalist. For God's sake, a trucking company in the US uses it in its logo. This article needs to describe reality which is that the Vergina Sun is widely used among this ethnic group. If there is a single symbol of ethnic Macedonians worldwide, this is it. --Local hero ^talk 14:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Not true. I'm sure you are well aware, as a member of the Macedonian diaspora, that the Vergina Sun is used by members of the Macedonian diaspora almost solely in a nationalist context. True, the diaspora does not have to obey the Prespa Agreement, but it's also true that the Macedonian ultra-nationalist organizations such as the World Macedonian Congress (which is behind the use of the symbol by the Republic of Macedonia in the first place) promote - if not push - the use of the symbol by the various Macedonian diaspora associations, and I'm sure you are well aware of what I'm talking about. I do not see why should Wikipedia fall into that trap. Macedonian (talk) 15:58, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, TU-nor, they do. The Turkish people who adopt the far-right Grey Wolves ideology have presence in several European countries, including France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany, prompting the parliaments in these countries to take legislative action against them. In Germany alone, their associations are numbering at least 18.000 members and that is making them the biggest far-right group that is organized in the country nowadays and is promoting ethnic hatred and violence against Syrians, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Cypriots and Assyrians, and the German lawmakers are already debating on how to deal with them; with proposals to outlaw and ban them in Germany, citing France's similar steps in dealing with them. [1] I am glad Wikipedia avoided mentioning the Grey Wolves on the articles of the Turkish people because I strongly believe people and ideologies are not to be mixed together, even if a part of them are still espousing these ideologies. Likewise, about Macedonians and Vergina Sun: many of those who are espousing the far-right ideology of Macedonism, are from the diaspora's far-right spectrum which not only is organized into groups but is actively promoting these irredendist ideologies, adopted the Vergina Sun as their symbol and are pressing the VMRO-DPMNE for the rescinding of the Prespa Agreement once it returns into power someday. Fewer of the Macedonists are actively encouraging ethnic hatred against Bulgarians, Albanians and Greeks and even promoting irredendist claims to history and territories of neighboring countries. However not every Macedonian agrees with this ideology/has adopted its symbols. I strongly insist that we dont mix ideologies and people in Wikipedia, even if segments of the Macedonian diaspora appear to do so. That would be a bad idea and certainly not an actual improvement for the article. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)