Talk:Helen Mirren: Difference between revisions

Helen Mirren should be listed as an actress (as most female actors are on wikipedia) not actor.

Nearly all female actors on wikipedia are listed as actresses. Helen Mirren is listed is an actor. This should be changed both in the description and for her occupation.

For example here are some of the most well known actresses (ACTRESSES, not ACTORS) on wikipedia:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meryl_Streep - Meryl Streep - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Hepburn - Audrey Hepburn - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlett_Johansson - Scarlett Johansson - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Lawrence - Jennifer Lawrence - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Watson - Emma Watson - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Winslet - Kate_Winslet - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate_Blanchett - Cate Blanchett - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Portman - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodie_Foster - Actress not Actor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Connelly - Actress not Actor

This is about consistency more than the term itself.

See WP:OTHERSTUFF. MarnetteD|Talk 19:08, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

An actor is a person who acts, it's a gender neutral term. They can call themselves whatever they want -- SteveCrook (talk) 12:52, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Indeed. See, in fact, our guideline on gender neutral language. Mirren identifies herself as an actor, not actress. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:17, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Those guidelines don't offer anything about actor/actress. We should stick with normal English as used by native speakers - something of the order of 99% of English speakers use actress for a woman who acts so wikipedia should reflect normal usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:987:BB00:50A7:7A61:EBE6:B7CF (talk) 17:12, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a source fir that 99% number. For the last several years the Comcast menus use term actor for both genders. Other examples include interviews on the Graham Norton show where actor is used for both sexes and the use of the gender neutral wording for Screen Actors Guild Awards#Categories. It is a fact that the word actor does not mean male. It is a gender neutral term. Sources abound about the fact that actor has become a gender neutral word. The Merriam-Webster definition here [1] especially its 1st example of usage in a sentence "my sister went to drama school to become an actor". Other dictionaries here [2], here [3] and here [4] all of which use gender neutral definitions. This writing style guide [5] agrees. Both sexes are part of the same species so separate wording is not needed. Authoress, poetess, comedienne and aviatrix are no longer needed. This falls into the same situation. MarnetteD|Talk 18:26, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your follow up though I disagree about the relevance of almost all you wrote. For native speakers of English the word for a woman actor is actress, I was being conservative when I said 99%, the number will be something of the order 99.999999% if you want more precision! Cherry picking this or that group who has adopted an alternative doesn't change the reality because for every source that uses "actor" to mean women actors, there are 1000 that use actress. So you can say what about the Screen Actors Guild, fine, but then the biggest awards like the Oscars uses "actress" to refer to actresses. The Guardian's style guide is not a neutral source on this - they adopted it for explicitly political reasons and every time they use it people complain because it renders some of their articles barely intelligible when they refer to various actors and actresses as actors making it hard to follow at times. Whatever one newspaper says, Wikipeda in language always strives for the most commonly and widely understood use of language. In this case, that is actress. This isn't an area of "fact checking" etc but using commonly understood language.

The comparisons with authoress etc is an invalid strawman - that term isn't widely used today so nobody is arguing about that. Actress is what virtually all native English speakers call a woman actress. Wikipedia should reflect that. If someone wants to add a sourced note explaining that Mirren herself objects to being called an actress and it is deemed relevant then that is fine of course. But if tomorrow she declares herself a nuclear physicist that doens't mean Wikipedia should change how it describes her.

Now of course things can vary by region and age etc etc. I've had an unusually wide experience, teaching English in multiple countries. I grew up in India but had one American parent and one Indian and have lived a lot in the US, New Zealand and UK. Even in the most remote parts of India people who have been studying English for only weeks or months will always refer to an actress as an actress and if they said "actor" the teacher would correct them. I realise you might not like it but that is how the English language currently is. Perhaps campaigns like the Guardian's and other groups will bring about a change over the coming decades, who can say? But right now arguing that the most commonly used term for an actress is actually an actor is like arguing that 2+2=5 - it is simply totally disconnected from the reality of virtually all native speakers.

To throw in a few examples that dwarf the Guardian style guide in terms of reach both the BBC and CNN refer to Mirren as an actress, eg https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/07/entertainment/helen-mirren-keanu-reeves/index.html and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50703366 . The Oscars refer to Mirren as an actress. The Times of India refer to her as an actress https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Helen-Mirren-in-DreamWorks-Indian-drama/articleshow/20873736.cms . The Times (ie London Times) refers to her as an actress https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/helen-mirren-nobody-is-all-male-or-female-ldschdn0k . The LA Times refers to Mirren as an actress https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2019-11-07/helen-mirren-keanu-reeves-girlfriend-alexandra-grant . The New Zealand Herald refers to Mirren as an actress https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12283838 . The South China Morning Post (Hong Kong's newspaper of record) calls her an actress https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/fashion/article/3034321/helen-mirren-makes-regal-entrance-catherine-great . Over and over again almost all reputable sources call her an actress. Almost all native speakers would call her an actress. It is really wrong for Wikipedia to be hijacked to push a political view about the use of the term actress. Wikipedia should reflect common usage. As I said, let's see, maybe it will change and in a decade or two it has to be amended but right now it looks silly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:986:EB00:40CB:69B5:AB4:58FD (talk) 14:48, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Talking about cherry-picking... if you look a bit further that most of the publications you've cited also describe Helen Mirren as an actor. -- SteveCrook (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Every single example I posted was accurate and within the top 2 or 3 results that google offered for each source - and recent too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:986:EB00:40CB:69B5:AB4:58FD (talk) 18:05, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

There is a much simpler argument to be made for using "actress" instead of "actor". The term actor is used only five or six times in the entry in reference to Helen Mirren, all in text written by editors. In every quoted text she's referred to as an actress. The term actress appears more than 30 times in the entry: "she won three consecutive British Academy Television Awards for Best Actress", "she won the Cannes Film Festival Award for Best Actress", "she was named best actress at the Olivier Awards", "nominated for Broadway's Tony Award for Best Actress in a Play", "won the Tony Award for Best Actress", "won her the Laurence Olivier Award for Best Actress", "she's a great actress and I'm a huge fan", "reflecting her "pathetic attempt at being a French actress."", "won her three consecutive British Academy Television Awards for Best Actress", "Mirren was named on The Times' list of the top 10 British actresses"- plus more occurrences in notes, bibliography and categories. It's pretty obvious that calling her an actor is not justified either by the sources or the common usage. Udippuy (talk) 11:33, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I suggest we continue to call her an Actor, as she prefers. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 12:00, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree. The purpose of the lead section is to provide an overview of the article. If the article primarily refers to her as an actress, it should be represented in the lead. This allows the article itself to determine how the lead section is worded, instead of individual editors. MiddleAgedBanana (talk) 11:25, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree to replace "actor" with "actress" when referring to her personally and if this is the consent, I invite someone to act on the item. My personal belief is that neutralizing the language using terms commonly understood as masculine, called "neutral masculine" in many binary languages, is offensive to women, at least from my point of view. If there is a word in common use in the feminine, I don't see why not to use it, instead of "honoring us" by including ourselves in a term commonly known as masculine.Sira Aspera (talk) 17:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm agree with you Sira Aspera (talk) 17:26, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

MiddleAgedBanana, are you also planning on replacing huMAN with huWOMAN? -- SteveCrook (talk) 00:04, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Helen Mirren

Cal 1984 no mention! 89.243.144.195 (talk) 15:12, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Worcs 1956 too. -Roxy the dog. wooF 16:27, 25 December 2021 (UTC)