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Hong Kong people's name

dearchived from /archive4

Should we write Tony Leung Chiu Wai or Tony Leung Chiu-wai and Tung Chee Hwa or Tung Chee-hwa?

I remember a discussion about this topic concluding apparently that the second version should be used, but I cannot retrieve it. Also the project page does not deal with this issue. Any thought on this topic? Thanks. olivier 19:10, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC) ?

It shouldnt really be what all Hong Kong people should be using, but what format is most common for each individual. We'll look up news articles and official sites to determine the "correct" version to use. --Jia ng 02:29, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Of course I did not mean that the HK folks should use it! I meant "should be used (as a recommended but not obligatory standard for Wikipedia articles mentioning the Cantonese romanization of the name of people, whose name is commonly pronounced in Cantonese, as it commonly occurs with people from Hong Kong)". Anyway, thanks, that was useful..... olivier 04:14, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

Why don't we stick to the names that these people use on their official records (say identity cards, passport) or the names that they feel like comfortable to be referred to by the public (some celebrities stars don't use their real name)? Steve 12:44, Oct 24, 2004 (GMT)

It is not easy to confirm their name on official document except for some public figures. The question posted above has a bad assumption built in. It is trying to fit the Hong Kong Chinese name system into the Western Firstname, Middlename, Lastname convention. It becomes a problem when someone has 4 names, then someone would use the hyphen to join some names together so the name fit in the Western format. But is that the right thing to do?

I always believe names should be done in the person's native way. For example, Wen Ho Lee is a Chinese American who live in the US and he writes his name as Wen Ho Lee despite other Chinese would call him Lee Wen Ho. Mao Zedong is Mao Zedong even if the Western convention would have changed his name into Zedong Mao. Likewise, if a person goes by his/her Cantonese name, it is silly to use the Mandarin transliteration as the article title, though it is okay to annotate with pinyin. What I want to promote is the concept of "native" name. Just stick with how the person would do for himself.

None of your choices were appropriate. These names should be written as Tony LEUNG Chiu Wai and TUNG Chee Hwa.

Kowloonese 01:37, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, before attacking my assumptions, please read my question properly first. I was asking whether the name should be written "Tung Chee Hwa" or "Tung Chee-hwa". There is nothing about trying to fit a Western pattern on a Chinese one in this question, just the fact the both formats appear routinely for the same person across the English Wikipedia and the English media in Hong Kong. In my initial question, I was looking for an answer which would allow for some homogeneization across the English Wikipedia (again, for HK names - Mao Zedong is not part of the question; I did not mention pinyin nor questioned the word order). Obviously, things become more complicated when the person is also famous by his/her English first name, like in the case of Tony Leung.

As an example, the format used by the 100 year old South China Morning Post, the largest English language newspaper in Hong Kong is consistently "Tony Leung Chiu-wai" and "Tung Chee-hwa". Same thing for The Standard. Any good reason for not following the format adopted by the two leading English language newspapers of Hong Kong? olivier 08:08, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

I am aware of how the newspapers do it. However, that is not how Hong Kong people write their names. People in Hong Kong mostly use the format as in Tung Chee Hwa. That is how students do it in school. Many do the same on their birth certificates, on their government ID cards etc. I have no strong objection to follow the newspaper convention in the Wikipedia. But on the other hand, I lean toward using the same names these people present themselves. Your examples above represented two different kinds of transliteration, Leung is definitely a Cantonese transliteration, but Hwa is obviously Mandarin because Cantonese would have used Wah instead. Two people from Hong Kong, using two different transliteration standards. Inconsistency is the way it should be because their names belong to them, not to wikipedia or the newspapers. We have no right to change the spelling or reformat it. Kowloonese 01:00, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We shall stick to their own way of writing their own names, and having their own names on their own personal identification documents. — Insta ntnood 21:33, Feb 18 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Kowloonese and Instantnood. It is how they write their own names which is more important...not how a newspaper does it across the board for all names for a century...--Huaiwei 06:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Then Tung Chee-hwa will have to be moved to Tung Chee Hwa. — Insta ntnood 21:18 Feb 27 2005 (UTC)

OK, so who volunteers to go and check the ID of the HK people mentioned in Wikipedia? olivier 07:11, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest Instantnood, considering how much time he seems to invest everyday vetting through every single one of my edits, as well as several other members of this site. Surely expending that energy towards more productive work like tracking down people's names is his forte.--Huaiwei 05:42, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well actually most people do not have the hyphen, unless they intentionally do so. By the way, IMHO the format Tony Leung Chiu Wai is not official, and is misleading. Any suggestion? Should the family name be underlined, bolded or CAPITALISED in the article? — Insta ntnood 14:59 Mar 9 2005 (UTC)

The very purpose of my initial posting was based on the fact that there seem to be no "official" way to write Hong Kong people's names in English. The suggestion of some of the above postings, while interesting (we should write the name of people the way they want it), lacks practicality, since, for most people, we just don't know how they want it to be written. So, that's the reason why I was asking if we could agree on some acceptable standard for those for whom we do not have the information. By the way, that's most probably the reason why the English speaking media of Hong Kong have defined their own standards for this point (see my posting above). My suggestions, unless we have better information for specific individuals, is to agree on such a standard for use in Wikipedia. Here are the options that I suggest:

If the person has an English name, that is commonly used to refer to him/her:

Tony Leung Chiu Wai
Tony Leung Chiu-wai - standard used by the English language press in HK (see my posting above)
Tony Leung or Leung Chiu Wai - a compromise
Tony Leung or Leung Chiu-wai
Leung Chiu Wai - would boldly avoid "trying to fit the Hong Kong Chinese name system into the Western Firstname, Middlename, Lastname convention" (see posting by Kowloonese)
Leung Chiu-wai

If there is no English component to the name:

Wong Kar Wai - "That is how students do it in school. Many do the same on their birth certificates, on their government ID cards etc." (see posting by Kowloonese)
Wong Kar-wai - standard used by the English language press in HK (see my posting above)

I do not see any argument supporting the underlining, bolding or capitalizing of the names. Thanks for your comments and suggestions. olivier 09:20, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

I support no.1 for both the first set and second set. For the first set, the family name should be underlined or capitalised in the first line of the first paragraph of the article, to avoid confusions.

Please also note that Tony Leung Chiu Wai is a rare case, to disambiguate from Tony Leung Ka Fai. For other Hongkongers with English names, such as Donald Tsang, the Chinese part of the name does not form part of the title. — Insta ntnood 09:35, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

..of Taiwan → ..of the Republic of China

continued from Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/archive4#..of Taiwan .26rarr.3B ..of the Republic of China and #Solution

Solution

Is it time to reach a solution? Shall we go on a poll? — Insta ntnood 23:06, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

As the one who initiated the discussion, I support the moves. — Insta ntnood 17:35, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

..of China or ..of the PRC → ..of mainland China

Learnt from the lesson on Wikipedia:Requested moves, a consensus here is essential and a prerequisite.

Important note

This is not a debate on the naming conventions, but its application and enforcement. Please do not oppose the moves just because you oppose the naming conventions. If you do want to comment on the current naming conventions, please start a new section on this page.

Precedents

on Wikipedia:Categories for deletion: (#1 and #2)

existing articles: List of Chinese companies, Demographics of China, Cinema of China

Naming conventions

Relevant statements from the naming conventions: " Hong Kong and Macau are generally not considered part of Mainland China, but are under the jurisdiction of the PRC. Thus, it is appropriate to write "many tourists from Hong Kong and Taiwan are visiting Mainland China." ". (Obviously "mainland China" is the appropriate term to describe the situation which Hong Kong and Macao (and the territories under the ROC) are excluded.)

Also relevant: " Wikipedia reflects the neutral reality and considers the term "China" not to coincide with any particular sovereign state or government. In particular, the word "China" should not be used to be synonymously with areas under the current administration of the People's Republic of China or with Mainland China. ".

Categories and articles involved

It is not necessary to support or oppose all of the moves below. In other words, you can object on the general direction, but support one or some of them, or vice versa.

Categories

Articles

(Note: This list should not be considered a full list. Some categories and articles might have not been identified.)

The moves do not apply to some articles and categories, such as the followings.

Categories

Articles

Basics

These articles or sections let you be more familiar with the issue.

One Country, Two Systems, History of Hong Kong, History of Macau, Sino-British Joint Declaration, Basic Law of Hong Kong, Politics of Hong Kong, Special Administrative Region, Closer Economic Partnership Arrangement, Hong Kong dollar, Pataca, Hong Kong International Airport#Anomalies, Economy of Hong Kong, Court of Final Appeal, Mainland China, Talk:Mainland China, Category talk:Cities in China, Category talk:Airports of the People's Republic of China, Category talk:Cities in China (more articles or sections would be added)

Important disclaimer: the list of articles and categories above have been compiled for some time, and the ongoing edit and revert wars staged recently by Huaiwei have made it necessary to bring the issue here earlier.

If there is no objection, the consensus here will serve as a precedance in future for articles sharing the common title problem. — Insta ntnood 22:59, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion on "China"/"PRC" vs. "mainland China"

Note: Here's a place for discussion. This is not a poll.

Object, yes, object! The term "mainland China" is absolutely meaningless semantic drivel. It should be removed from the naming conventions. "Mainland China" should be used rarely (or not at all! use a more specific term) to disambiguate from the greater "China". "China" in general refers to the anything chinese. It is also understood as a general term to refer to the PRC and it's possessions. English allows fluidity around a term and people understand meaning by context. There is not a need to rename articles from "China" to be more specific that it is only certain parts of PRC China. People understand, do not dumbify to uselessness because of some naming convention. If Tourism in China doesn't refer to Hong Kong or some other place, then just make a statement of that in the article, don't rename the article. There are multiple governments that use the term "China" but sorry, the PRC is the 800lb gorilla. Will your next crusade be to start renaming anything with "America" in the title to refer only to "The United States of America"? SchmuckyTheCat 23:44, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Mainland China" is not just a casual or informal term. The phrase "the mainland of China" is used in laws in Hong Kong (search for "mainland of China" at http://www.legislation.gov.hk). The Mainland Affairs Commission (MAC) of the Executive Yuan of the ROC also uses the term "mainland China" (see Talk:Mainland China). And please bear in mind this is not a debate on the naming conventions, but its application. — Insta ntnood 00:03, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

This is 'talk:naming conventions' and if I want to say the naming conventions are bad, i will. I won't let the "Executive Yuan of the ROC" (the ROC being Taiwan) define the name used by an emerging superpower nation-state. It may be a useful term for subentities that are NOT part of "mainland China" to differentiate themselves but it is the wrong term to use for the main entity. HK and Taiwan don't get to define China. China does and the one word "China" is it. SchmuckyTheCat 01:01, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Good. I am interested to know how you'd comment on the following materials produced by the PRC government.

Latest Satistics on SARS on Mainland China (15/04/2003) [1]
Education System in Mainland China [2]
Regulations of the State Council for Encouragement of Investment by Overseas Chinese and Compatriots from Hong Kong and Macao [3]
Reform gradualism and evolution of exchange rate regime in Mainland China (a speech delievered by the governor of the People's Bank of China) (doc format) [4]

If you want to comment on the naming conventions, please start a new section. — Insta ntnood 01:35, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the PRC is differentiating from the other regions it controls. SchmuckyTheCat 04:12, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Right. In other words the term "mainland China" is not only used by Hong Kong or the ROC, but also the PRC itself. — Insta ntnood 15:07, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Object. Obviously an objection is in order, especially when there is actually a proclaimation that this result is going to form the basis for ALL the above changes! Each of those cases warrant discussions of their own.--Huaiwei 00:09, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid this is not the case. — Insta ntnood 01:35, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

In reference to?--Huaiwei 05:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Object For the reasons outlined above. How long will it take for Instantnood to recognise he is in a minority here, that many people have read his arguments, but disagree with them, and that WP is governed by consensus? jguk 19:19, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Object "of mainland China" is ugly and cumbersome. If particular regions are included/excluded and confusion may otherwise occur, put it in the text. Smoddy (t) (e) (g) 20:55, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I support consistency. If the Wikipedia community had a consensus on the naming convention of Mainland China, China, People's Republic of China, Taiwan, Republic of China, etc., and the opposers failed to change the status quo in the "Political NPOV section", we should make the article titles and Categories consistent with the policy. Yes, someone may say that they look ugly and that most Western media ignore those fine details, but the consensus was to be accurate and to educate the public. I still find the old consensus make sense for an encyclopedia. -- Felix Wan 02:06, 2005 Mar 12 (UTC)

there isn't a naming convention for "mainland china" other than as an acceptable term when the need to differentiate from the greater China is necessary. Most of the time, and most of these changes, that differentiation isn't necessary. Using "mainland China" as a primary term is actually against the convention. (added by SchmuckyTheCat at 06:45, Mar 12, 2005)

The term "Mainland China" has never been accepted as an agreeable term to refer to the country. Refer to below.--Huaiwei 08:59, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Even by doing so it is not used to referred to as a country, but a part (though a major part) of a country. It is a matter of presentation. It does not imply mainland China itself is a sovereign state. — Insta ntnood 12:26, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

So long that the above categories are classifications by country, then you are indeed calling "Mainland China" a country. Refer to below.--Huaiwei 13:04, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Quoted from your words at Talk:Mainland China " more because of presentation issues then fact. " when commenting on the list of countries by area. — Insta ntnood 15:32, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

And what is wrong with that quote? The PRC often refers to the ROC as "Taiwan", avoiding the term "ROC" because it refuses to recognise it. The ROC refers to the PRC as "Mainland China" because it also refuses to recognise the PRC. But does this than equate to "Mainland China" and "Taiwan" becoming acceptable names for countries, although it is very much more common for the later, and although some of us have been criticising that assumption?--Huaiwei 16:09, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Then am I calling "mainland China" as a country, or is it just an issue of presentation? — Insta ntnood 16:18, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

You are presenting the term as a country. And I dispute that, if that is not obvious by now.--Huaiwei 16:47, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I support as well. And I don't think things would look ugly at all if they're changed. Why are people so afraid of the term "mainland China"? -- ran (talk) 02:20, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

My reason for disagreeing with the above is this. The term "Mainland China" itself may not be a major issue, but it is often a sub-category of categories filed by country. So, "Roads of China", for example, may come under a category "Roads by country". When we rename "Roads of China" as "Roads of Mainland China", we end up having "Mainland China" appearing as a country amongst other country entries. I do not find that acceptable. When the title reads as "XXX of China", I feel we have room to have "XX of HK", "XX of Macau" and "XX of Taiwan/ROC" appearing both as subcategories of "XX of China" as per our conventions set earlier, plus also appearing in the "XXX" by country category as well as a bonus. Personally, I prefer to see "XXX of China" split into "XX of the PRC" and "XX of ROC/Taiwan" and have "XX of Hong Kong" and "XX of Macau" as subcategories of "XX of the PRC". Isnt this the proper way that countries should be filed as?--Huaiwei 08:59, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If you argue in this way then strictly speaking the PRC and the ROC (Taiwan) are not two countries. They belong to the same country, and technically a country in war time that two powers controlling different parts of the country. In other words neither the PRC nor the ROC is qualified to be listed or categorised as country. — Insta ntnood 12:26, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Precisely because the two are in theory not countries, that we have some pages with "XXX in China" which contains information on both the PRC and the ROC. This has been well explained in this very convention, even if it was contested. If we apply that logic to pages, I dont see why it canot be applied to categories. What you are doing to the categories runs contrary to conventions. For example, why do you resist my restoration of "Category:Airports in China" to include all subcategories related to both airports in the PRC and the ROC, and instead tried to remove "Category:Airports of Hong Kong" and "Category:Airports of Macau" out of that category, plus revert my inclusion of "Category:Airports of Taiwan" within that category (although I also allowed it to appear seperately at the same time)?--Huaiwei 13:09, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please refer to the current treatment at Demographics of China and List of Chinese companies. — Insta ntnood 15:32, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Oh....so you are telling me "Mainland China" gets listed as a country in those two instances? Thanks. Something needs to be done about them then! Meanwhile, did anyone not notice that Instantnood has been silently moving plenty of those pages to the "Mainland China" category in place of the PRC?--Huaiwei 16:06, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The real side of the fact is that the English word "country" is a relatively vague concept, as oppose to "sovereign state". Many lists or categories all across Wikipedia are not limited to cover only sovereign states. — Insta ntnood 12:26, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

If you are going to contest the notion of what "country" means, then you have to go beyond this small little exercise here. If you want consistency, and to accept that the term is vague, then may I ask if you allow the creation of "Category:Airports of Kurdistan" and "Category:Airports of Tibet" and list then independently, since they are also "countries" by certain definitions? And meanwhile, how would you treat any classification related to the United Kingdom, since it is composed of countries? Meanwhile, could you tell us just how often is the term "Mainland China" considered a "country" even if we were to consider the word "country" as contestable, which is true in actual fact?--Huaiwei 13:04, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As you like it. But I am afraid everyone can tell. — Insta ntnood 15:32, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Answer those questions.--Huaiwei 16:06, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Except diplomatic relations and national defence, Hong Kong and Macao are on their own. Ministries of the CPG of the PRC have no jurisdiction over Hong Kong and Macao affairs. For instance if Hong Kong has to build an additional university it is not the business of the education ministry of the PRC. — Insta ntnood 12:26, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

This point has been repeated over and over. Yes, we are more then aware that the two ~~SARS~~ SARs run their own economical and transportational affairs. But as has also been repeatedly retorted, we are talking about a classification along political lines here. Having a classification of XXX, even if it has nothing to do with politics, appearing in a classiciation by country is not a politically NPOV. Try creating "Category:Musicians of Tibet" and then listing it in "Category:Musicians by country" instead of "Category:Musicians of China", and then come tell me if that is a politically NPOV?--Huaiwei 13:04, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please tell why Tibet is a valid and applicable analogy here. — Insta ntnood 15:32, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

You insisted that so long that the topic in question is not political, it is ok to ignore political considerations in presentation. Fine. I chose Tibet because it is so damn obvious. You can ask yourself how it will be like if do it with Shanghai too for all I care, coz the same theory applies.--Huaiwei 16:06, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In other words you're implying the case of Tibet is comparable, and therefore Tibet is a valid and applicable analogy, am I right? — Insta ntnood 16:18, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. Feel free to substitute with any other political entity you can think of. ;)--Huaiwei 16:47, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Support. It's clear that the conventions have been defined beforehand and we should try to adhere to those standards. If people have problems with the convention itself, that should have been brought up beforehand. BTW, some of the articles you proposed to rename probably don't apply. For instance, the current text in Tourism in China talks about both mainland and Taiwan, so keeping it as "China" should be fine since China refers to the region as a whole. Transportation in China seems to talk a bit about Hong Kong too, so maybe it should be Transportation in the People's Republic of China instead of Transportation in Mainland China. Anyway, these are just nitpicks that can be ironed out beforehand, but I do support the general proposal of renaming some articles in order to adhere to the naming conventions. --Umofomia 06:58, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I guess the content of some of the articles might have to be slightly modified, for instance Transportation in China. — Insta ntnood 07:36, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

In the same way that you can modify the contents so that they suit the new categories, they can also be modified to suit the existing categories.--Huaiwei 08:59, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Right. — Insta ntnood 12:26, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

The conventions, however, did not state that "Mainland China" is an acceptable equivalant to refer to the PRC as a country. Do note, as I said before, that these categories are also classified under "XXX by country". I do not think there is a country called "Mainland China". The only reason Hong Kong and Macau sometimes appears under country listings is due to the 1 country 2 systems formula, which I am more then open to allow them appearing both as countries or as being classified under the PRC, or either one as the situation deems it neccesary.--Huaiwei 08:59, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In this proposal "mainland China" is not used as an equivalent to the PRC. The scope of the content of the articles or categories covers only the mainland China, and therefore they need a proper title. Having them subcategorised undermine their character as dependent territories (or special territories, as you may prefer) instead of ordinary subnational entities. — Insta ntnood 12:26, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

This assumption is only true, if you also then create new categories called "XXX of the People's Republic of China" and then make "XXX of Mainland China", "XXX of Hong Kong" and "XXX of Macau" as subcategories of it. The fact is that each of the above categories you are trying to rename are subcateries of "XXX by country" so you are, intentionally or otherwise, equating to insisting that the "People's Republic of China" has to be called "Mainland China" in country lists. I do not find that acceptable, unless you do what I suggested above. Trying to create international space for Hong Kong-related articles is perfectly alright as far as knowledge and this encyclopedia is concerned, but to therefore cause the international standing of another entity, and in this case, the holding entity of Hong Kong, to suffer by refering to it merely with a sub-geographical name when refering to the country is an extreme exercise we cannot take lightly.--Huaiwei 13:09, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Comments: I think User:Huaiwei did raise a valid point, which I had overlooked: the current convention is silent about whether we can list mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan among the other countries in non-political context. We may need to find some consensus on clarifying the convention before we decide on the move. Let's look at the problem using one example: The current Category:Airlines of Asia consists of subcategories Category:Airlines of China, Category:Airlines of Hong Kong and Category:Airlines of Taiwan and the article Air Macau. All other subcategories are airlines of sovereign states. The three subcategories do not have further subcategories. That appears wrong, but how to fix it?

Politically, although Hong Kong and Taiwan are not countries, listing them among other countries are allowed in the context of "airlines". For all practical reasons the three regions have independent administration of their airlines. There is no political dispute about that. On the other hand, listing Tibet among the list is not appropriate. However, it seems to be more appropriate to replace "China" with "mainland China" for two reasons:

That category actually excludes airlines from other regions of "China". "Mainland China" is the accurate description there according to the convention.
Listing "China" among "Hong Kong" and "Taiwan" seems to imply that the last two are not part of "China".

That was how I came to the same conclusion as User:Instantnood that most of the moves listed should be done according to the current convention.

If I understand the logic of User:Huaiwei correctly, he/she would suggest that we have only one Category:Airlines of China at that level, listed among other countries, and then have Category:Airlines of mainland China, Category:Airlines of Hong Kong and Category:Airlines of Taiwan listed as subcategories. Personally I find that acceptable too, but I am afraid other Wikipedians may not. It may also be difficult for someone unfamiliar with the politics of that region to find the last two categories if they are not listed among the Asian countries but only as a subcategory of China.

Let's discuss on how to resolve the issue using that example, and see if we can set a standard and state it clear as the convention. -- Felix Wan 02:11, 2005 Mar 15 (UTC)

Felix, many of us DO disagree with the NPOV section of the naming convention but either nobody wants to have that discussion or when it occurs, it occurs within the context of proposals like this, where it doesn't actually affect the main article. I for one, have no problem with airlines of HK being a sub of Airlines of the PRC, or Airlines of China, and Taiwan being seperate altogether from either, maybe in Airlines of Asia, as it's own independent entity WHICH IT IS, and which the naming conventions ALSO say is an acceptable solution. SchmuckyTheCat 02:52, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I have no problem with that arrangement either, but I am sure someone will oppose it strongly. What I want is just a consensus on one convention and then apply it consistenly. By the way, there IS a discussion on the NPOV section on this page. If we can come up with any decision in this context, we should also change the main article accordingly. So feel free to discuss here or in that section. -- Felix Wan 04:05, 2005 Mar 15 (UTC)

I would like to remind the participants that claiming Taiwan being not a country is a clear POV and not neutral. The ROC government made it clear many times: ROC is an independent sovereign country. Although I also tend to disagree with that claim either. To be more precise, Taiwan is a territory under ROC occupation, my POV. (added by Mababa at 08:57, Mar 16, 2005)

Thanks Mababa. The most tend-to-NPOV treatment would be a description of the status quo, by saying Taiwan is a territory currently administered by the ROC (without addressing its legality). It is a POV and is not neutral to say Taiwan is currently a sovereign state on its own. — Insta ntnood 09:44, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for Instantnood's response. For that very reason, that is why we have this long discussion about separating Taiwan from ROC. But again, though my POV supports this treatment, many people use the terms interchangably to refer the government. Though we do not adapt that POV and use it as truth, I believe that we should at least reflect that POV in the articles for the sake of reaching NPOV.Mababa 04:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A poll?

Shall we go on a poll? If yes, is now the right timing? — Insta ntnood 10:53, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

NPOv: China, Mainland China, PRC, ROC, SAR, etc.

(SchmuckyTheCat 03:51, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC))

A lot has been discussed here previously about NPOV. I think most people who have discussed NPOV previously have very valid ideas and proposals. Some movement was made about updating the naming conventions in February but it did not go forward to actually change what is there now. Since then several very disputed rename proposals occurred with the justification that the renames were aligned with the naming conventions.

We've got so much confusion in article layout and terminology that readers are confused. We can't come to concensus because everyone believes their views are being excluded. Minor edits are turning into flame wars. The term "China" has been cut up and re-named to so many different things that nobody can agree on what the generic term can mean. The current terminology is so NPOV about Hong Kong and Taiwan that it is extremely POV about the PRC.

If we all recognize that the PRC is not homogenous and allow terms like "China" to be broad and encompassing, we can stop having so many arguments, needless renames and category pigeonholing. This means the main articles may need some text about terminology and it certainly means minor articles need to place the terms in the correct context.

I think concensus could be reached on the following statements (my examples may or may not exist):

1. "China" and "Chinese" means the entire geographical entity, including the PRC, Taiwan (ROC), Hong Kong, the autonomous regions, and in a purely historical context other areas as well.

2. "China" and "Chinese" is an acceptable but not preferred, term when referring to the People's Republic of China. An article that might be confusing with the name "China" (such as "Economy of China") can mention what it does not refer to (such as Taiwan or Macau) with a short text and link inside the article. Even better is a specific article for the other entity. Linking articles should provide the reader, by context, the NPOV of whether the linking article is about the PRC or something else. We should not rename articles from China to mainland China or to the People's Republic of China simply because of a naming convention.

3. "Taiwan" is an acceptable, but not preferred, term when referring to Taiwan or the Republic of China. An article that might be confusing with the only the term Taiwan or ROC (such as ROC controlled islands) should explain it's context in the article. We do not need to rename articles to "Republic of China" simply because of a naming convention.

4. The primary articles on China and the People's Republic of China should mention that neither "China" nor the PRC is homogenous in laws, language, custom, etc. The extremely loose federated system for provincial control in the PRC allows a wide variety of systems to be practiced. Individual articles should detail how things are different.

5. The primary article on "China" should contain a short section titled "Mainland China". This short section should link to the main article "Mainland China". Most articles should link to "China#Mainland China" and not "Mainland China". The term "mainland China" is POV dependent and might mean several things, thus, it is up to the linking article to maintain context if it links to that term.

6. There is no entity called "mainland China". Unless necessary, articles and categories should not be titled with it. Articles categorized with "China" or "the People's Republic of China" that have some unique situation that differentiates them from the main body of "China" should list that situation in their own articles.

7. Hong Kong and Macau are part of the People's Republic of China. They are also special. They should not be categorized or treated as seperate from China. Articles about Hong Kong and Macau have the responsibility to state why and how they are different from the People's Republic of China, not vice versa. The differentness of HK and Macau shouldn't be used to rename other Chinese entities.

Reasoning:

<--From re-reading previous discussions, I think these statements agree with the opinions put forth by Curps, Colipon, Mababa, jguk, Explorer CDT, and Suslovan. I think they mostly agree with Huaiwei, Jiang, ran, Mark Sweep, john k, and Penwhale. (I am not attempting to speak for any of you! I am trying to find where different people agree and associate.)-->

These are my reasons for approving the above statements. Your reasons might differ even if you also agree with the statements. To come to concensus, do not focus on my reasons. Come to your own conclusions and see if minor changes to your own POV or the statements above could bring you onboard to concensus.

My opinion on statement 2. Some have said that by letting "China" refer to the PRC that it is NPOV towards Taiwan/ROC, which still has a marginal number of people wishing to control all of China. And/or that Taiwan is also Chinese and that the term "China" (referring to the PRC) excludes Taiwan. This is not the case at all!

First, Wikipedia recognizes the status quo to the political situation. The status quo is that Taiwan does not control the geographical entity called China. It is NPOV to allow China to refer to the PRC in most contexts.

Second, the terms China and Chinese does not exclude Taiwan anymoreso than it excludes ex-patriate Chinese living in Brazil, or native HK residents who fled to Canada, or Americans whose relatives emigrated four generations ago. Taiwan/ROC is undeniably Chinese. Third, it is strongly POV to allow these other entities (Taiwan, HK, etc) to define what China is and is not. The situations in Taiwan and HK need to be addressed in articles about Taiwan and HK. Fourth, we must take into account the intention of the thousands of other articles that sloppily link to "China". We aren't giving the PRC exclusive rights to the name China, but we are acknowleding and accomodating common use.

My opinion on Statement 3. Republic of China is what the government there prefers. We should respect that. However, insisting that "Republic of China" is more accurate or less POV than Taiwan is as POV as anything else. Some Taiwanese prefer Taiwan, some prefer ROC, some probably prefer Formosa or Chinese Taipei. The meaning of Taiwan geographically is one thing, but in our global culture, the word "Taiwan" has expanded to mean the political entity, the language, and the unique culture that has sprung up there. We should encourage broad and encompassing terms. We don't need to rename articles (unless there is a naming conflict, of course) if we can have more explanatory text in the articles.

My opinion on statement 4, 5, 6. This is a huge problem. Mainland China is being used as a substitute, and using the current naming conventions to justify it, for the People's Republic of China. This is horribly POV for Taiwan and HK centric articles (and wiki users) to be defining the PRC with such a term. The term defines what mainland China is not, but can't define what it is because what it is is context dependent. From Taiwan, mainland China is every part of China that isn't Taiwan. From Hong Kong, mainland China is all of China except the SAR.

It is unjustifiable for an article like "Laws of the People's Republic of China" to be in a category called "Mainland China" but not the category "People's Republic of China" simply because an HK centric user feels like the PRC term is exclusive of Hong Kongs special status, even though HK is clearly part of the PRC. An article "Laws of Hong Kong" is good. Renaming an article from "Laws of the PRC" to "Laws of Mainland China" based on the specialness of HK is horrible POV and horrible style - but that is what is happening.

Most links to "Mainland China" aren't meant to be links to an article defining an informal term, they do mean to refer to a subset of China. Which is why they should link to the term as a placeholder (China#Mainland) within the article that most readers actually want to read.

My opinion on statement 7. This has been a point of contention lately. The differentness of HK and Macau have been used to redefine terms that have nothing to do with HK and Macau in articles that don't refer to HK or Macau. Again, HK is not Shenzen is not Beijing is not Tibet. Many areas of China have unique situations, laws and culture. It would be an impossible task to edit all articles on China to explain how the concept differs in each province, AR, SEZ, or SAR.

Additionally, the specialness of HK and Macau have been used to justify HK and Macau as seperate, even equal, entities to the PRC. The two SAR, of course, have many fundamental differences with the PRC. Those differences should be explained, not seperated.

---

Again, these things are fixed by everyone recognizing that China is not homogenous. Laws, economics, food, language, (even the concept of sovereignty!) are all different across China. Beijing is not Shenzen is not Hong Kong is not Tibet. By making it clear to the reader that China is not homogenous and providing links we encourage readers to explore and learn. Or, we can continue to focus on our current efforts and fighting about minor categories, in which case we have lost the big picture and also confused our readers.

Discussion on #Political NPOV

Statement 1.

Agree -- "China" is often used to refer to the entire geographical entity and there is no problem with that. --Umofomia 07:58, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Disagreed--If "China" as a geographical entity includes Taiwan based on history, please also include Mongolia, Korea and Vietnam. If Taiwan is included into China due to Culture, please include Singapore which shared the Chinese culture with a majority Chinese ethnic population exits in that country. Please also remember, before 1945, Taiwanese residents read and write in Japanese. Culture export is not a reason to include other area into a reagion; or half of the world belongs to north america. If "China" as a geographical entity includes Taiwan is based on political system, that is a POV. The political status of Taiwan is debated. ROC arguably do not have sovereignty over Taiwan. Taiwan and mainland China only overlaped within Qing dynasty versus China's 5000 years history. Qing even evaded and denied its responsibility for events occured in Taiwan island. The current NPOV policy make deliberate ambiguity on the definition of "China". IMHO, it prevents endorsing which area is part of China and also safegaurds the possiblity that some areas are not part of China. If we reallky want to define China, then we'd better define it as the least contentious definition: PRC=China, with its claim to other territory. In this way, we still do not exclude Taiwan as part of China, but also avoid endorsing it.Mababa 08:39, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The articles dealing with Chinese history and culture do mention areas that were under Chinese control or influence historically, including the ones you mentioned, so I don't see any problem with that. This geographical area has grown and shrunk with time and the articles on Chinese history make adequate explanations of where Chinese influence extended. I think it's useful that we can use the words "China" and "Chinese" to separate themselves from the political entities, so that we don't have to claim who has sovereignty over what. I think using PRC=China is actually rather the opposite of what you claim, since it explicitly endorses that the ROC does not exist, which is a POV statement. --Umofomia 08:57, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Slightly disagree. China as a geographical entity has disputed borders. Independence supporters would like to think that Taiwan is not part of China, geographic or otherwise. The term Chinese (if considered to be on par with 中華/華人 etc) can be used to refer to Taiwan, but should be avoided where possible. Politically, for the sake of listing, both the PRC and ROC can go under "China", but we can't define the ROC as the same as Taiwan in a geographical context.--Jiang 09:00, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think geographical entities can have disputed borders since it's all based on where influence extends to. It's the political entity that has disputed borders. A piece of land may be claimed politically by another state, but if there is Chinese influence over it, then I don't see a problem of having fall under the geographical entity. In addition, I'm not sure the about your assertion concerning Taiwanese independence supporters. Other than probably the radical fringes, they still agree that Taiwan falls under the geographical entity of China. It's the political region that they claim is not part of the political region of the PRC. There is a difference, and we should not confuse the two concepts. --Umofomia 09:13, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Comment: Wikipedia has to stay NPOV. Geographically Wikipedia has to be careful in dealing with saying Taiwan is part of China the geographical region. See also my comment below. — Insta ntnood 10:01, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Comment I would like to urge Umofomia to glance over the statement (1) again. A geographical area is always an are with physical boundaries. The geographical area which has grown and shrunk as you proposed is actually the political entity of China and thus does not seem to comform with the common concept for a geographical area.
Thesuggested definition of geographical China using the influence of China(a political entity) as a criteria defining the boarder is undoubtly subjective to one's political point of view and thus is POV by nature. I am not even sure what the criteria, the so called "influence", is. And it makes me wonder why Iraq is not part of geographical US. Looking at the 5000 years of the Chinese history, I do not see why Taiwan has the privilege to be part of China whereas Korea, mongolia and Vietnam do not. As Jiang and Instantnood pointed out, a significant portion of Taiwnese do not like the idea to be considered as part of China, even geographically; and Wikipedia has the responsibility to make its content neutral. IMO, defining Taiwan to be part of the geographical China is not neutral.
Lastbut not the least, tagging people with the radical label is certainly not neutral either. There is a Taiwan strait, a High Seas, separating the island from the mainland China. Perhaps, people in Taiwan would consider those who think Taiwan be part of geograpihcal China more radical than the other way. If we ever want to define the geographical entity, China, we should better come up with some more neutral criteria. However, I do concede that my initial proposal, taking PRC as geographical China, is not ideal. Let me modify my proposal: I suggest that we take mainland China as the definition of the geographical China. I think that would be the most neutral treatment for this.Mababa 05:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Out of all these places with Chinese cultural influence, such as Vietnam, Korea, and exclaves in North America and Europe, Taiwan is the only place fulfilling all of the following: i) with a population of Chinese descent majority, ii) has been ruled directly by China in some part of history (from the end of Tungning Kingdom until 1885), and iii) geographically continguous with the Chinese culture, i.e. not separated by another culture. — Insta ntnood 10:57, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
Disagree. Ref Jiang. --MarkSweep 07:22, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Statement 2.

Hesitantly Agree -- Although the term "China" is often used to refer to the PRC only, it does do the reader a disservice by not adequately making it be known that there are political implications behind it. I would support it if a statement at the top of each article named "xxx of China" specifically states that it refers to the PRC and not to the ROC, et al. We should even make this statement a template so that it's consistent across all articles. --Umofomia 08:04, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Generally disagree. "China" is not acceptable when referring to the People's Republic of China because it either implies Taiwan is not part of China or is renegade. Neither is NPOV. I will take issue if people move away from the current naming, but I won't be deliberatly moving articles like "economy of China" as part of an established series of articles. --Jiang 09:07, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Responses to reasoning given above: "Taiwan does not control the geographical entity called China" is POV and inaccurate because this implies that Taiwan is not part of the geographical entity of China. Having a "marginal number of people wishing to control all of China" is not relevant since as long as we see Taiwan as part of China, then China is divided. This is the state of affairs we are dealing with, not what things should be. Thereofore it is still POV to equate China=PRC. "Taiwan/ROC is undeniably Chinese" cannot neutrally apply, especially if China=PRC because that means Taiwan is part of PRC. Overseas Chinese are not part of China... Regarding the statement, "it is strongly POV to allow these other entities (Taiwan, HK, etc) to define what China is and is not." we did not allow these entities to define China. Instead, we are looking at the current state of affairs from an objective standpoint. We are not using the same terms Taiwan or HK is using. "We aren't giving the PRC exclusive rights to the name China, but we are acknowleding and accomodating common use." Common use is POV and since this is in English, western-centric. Westerners are mostly ignorant of the situation. --Ji ang 09:16, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. "China" does not equal to "PRC", or the other way round. It is already a POV to say it's "acceptable thought not preferable". The rest of the problem is already solved by redirects, disambiguations and notices. See also my comment below. — Insta ntnood 10:04, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Disagree in general. However, in a long article about the PRC, "Chinese" may be Ok as an abbreviated form when it's clear from context what is meant. --MarkSweep 07:22, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I can accept it as a reader, but not as an editor. — Insta ntnood 10:58, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Statement 3.

Hesitantly Agree -- it probably is a little silly renaming every article to "xxx of the Republic of China" and that most people would not readily know that the ROC refers to Taiwan, since many are ignorant of Chinese history. However, using Taiwan for the ROC also does the reader a disservice like I explain for statement 2. Again, perhaps we can have a templated statement at the top of any article named "xxx of Taiwan." --Umofomia 08:11, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Agreed--The more inclusive the definition is, the more neutral the articles would be. Specifically rejecting the western common usage is surely a POV, with the caveat that usage may or may not be fact.Mababa 08:47, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Somewhat disagree. This is among the most contenous points in Taiwanese politics: seethis and this. There are some contexts where "Republic of China" is obivously appropriate eg "flag of the Republic of China" while other contexts where it is not "Mountains in the Republic of China". Use political terms for political topics and non-political terms from non-political topics. It just can't be defined as clear cut as no. 3--Jiang
- Hey Jiang. It's not Taiwanese politics, but ROC politics or cross-strait politics. :-) By the way, there are some hills or peaks outside of Taiwan, am I right? Should it be done according to the current treatment to category:Airports of the Republic of China vs. Taiwan, and category:Townships in the Republic of China vs. Taiwan? — Insta ntnood 10:21, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. "Taiwan" does not equal to "ROC", or the other way round. It is already a POV to say it's "acceptable thought not preferable". The rest of the problem is already solved by redirects, disambiguations and notices. See also my comment below. — Insta ntnood 10:05, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Disagree. The current conventions are just fine. --MarkSweep 07:22, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Statement 4.

Comment -- I don't exactly know what you mean here. In my opinion, the main article on China is fine as it is since it talks about things under the geographic and historical definition of China. The main article on the PRC is fine as well since it talks about the political entity. --Umofomia 08:17, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Comment: China is not a "loosely federated" State. Laws, customs, immigration, demographcs, economy, etc., are the business of mainland authorities. The articles on these topics do not deal with Hong Kong and Macao. See also my comment below. — Insta ntnood 10:08, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Agree that neither the PRC nor Taiwan (nor China by anyone's definition) is culturally, linguistically, or ethnically homogeneous. But the PRC is, at least de iure, not an "extremely loose federated system". --MarkSweep 07:22, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Statement 5.

Somewhat Disagree -- I typically don't like linking to subsections of articles since subsections can end up getting renamed or removed. Also, I don't think mainland China is POV at all because it refers to the geographical entity, which also happens to coincide with the areas administered by the PRC excluding HK and Macau. In my opinion, it's on the same level as calling the ROC Taiwan, which you seem to support. --Umofomia 08:26, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Strongly Disagree Mainland China means areas under the control of the PRC except HK and Macau in almost all contexts. The ambiguity of the term is being exaggerated by you. It is commonly used in Chinese for neutrality sake. It is the least POV of the terms. PRC and ROC are very much more POV. --Jiang
Strongly disagree. I agree with Umofomia and Jiang. Furthermore Metropolitan France, Kingdom of the Netherlands, Lower 48 all have separate articles. See also my comment below. — Insta ntnood 10:09, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Disagree. The term "Mainland China" (大陸) is not ambiguous. All sides more or less agree what it refers to, and all parties use it, e.g. the ROC has a Mainland Affairs Council, HK refers to cross-border exchanges with the Mainland, etc. --MarkSweep 07:22, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Statement 6.

Somewhat Disagree -- I don't see why you keep insisting that there is no such entity called "mainland China" (大陸). Even the PRC uses the term all the time when it wants to refer to itself excluding HK and Macau. However, I am in favor of using the term only to refer to the geographical entity rather than a political entity. I have no problem with articles entitled "xxx in Mainland China" if they talk about places or things situated in the PRC excluding HK and Macau. But if it refers to something that relates more to politics or has governmental influence, then I would be in favor of using "xxx in the People's Republic of China." --Umofomia 08:33, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Even if it involves the influence of the government, in most occasions "..of mainland China" is more appropriate. The ministry of transport or the ministry of finance, for instance, has no jurisdiction outside mainland China. Economy and demographics articles also involve statistics compiled by the government, but again, these statistics cover only mainland China. — Insta ntnood 10:15, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Strongly disagree The statement is just plain false. There is an entity called "mainland China" and it is commonly defined as the PRC minus the two SARs. Agree with Umofomia: use non-political terms for non-political contexts.--Jiang
Strongly disagree. Though I can't tell if "mainland China" qualifies to be fit into the definition of "entity", "mainland China" is a valid term in referring to PRC's territories minus Hong Kong and Macao. See also my comment and the materials produced by the PRC government below. — Insta ntnood 10:15, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Disagree. Ref Jiang & Instantnood. --MarkSweep 07:22, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Statement 7.

Disagree -- HK and Macau are definitely part of the PRC, but because they are special, they often have radically different systems from the PRC, which justifies them having their own separate articles. I don't think making them separate is an implicit endorsement of them being equal political entities to the PRC. The same can apply to any place in China. For instance, if there is something in Shenzhen or Shanghai or whatever that has its own special situation different from the PRC that takes more than a few paragraphs to explain, then they also could have their own separate articles. Conversely, if there are things in HK or Macau that aren't too different or don't particularly have enough content to justify separate articles, then they could be merged into an article on the PRC, but trying to place everything under the umbrella of the PRC would make some rather unwieldy articles. --Umofomia 08:43, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. "Mainland China" is on its own right on matters not related to diplomatic relations and national defence. See also my comment below. — Insta ntnood 10:17, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Disagree to the extent that I can make sense of this. Ref Umofomia & Instantnood. --MarkSweep 07:22, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Views and alternative proposals

Instantnood's view

Everyone has already agreed upon that the term "China" refers to a geographical region, a vague concept that the limits vary to different people. What made "China" = "PRC" and "Taiwan" = "ROC" was a result of politics, and it is a POV. There was a long debate before the decision was made to place the articles about the governments at People's Republic of China and Republic of China, leaving China and Taiwan articles on geography. Using "China" as an encompassing term to refer to the "PRC" have been considered POV.

Either saying "Taiwan" as a geographical region is or is not part of the geographical region of "China" is, again, POV. It is also politics. On Wikipedia we have tried to be as NPOV as possible. However from culture point of view, Taiwanese culture, though with relatively greater influences from other sources, is part of Chinese culture. The Taiwanese or Min Nan language (or spoken variant) is a Han language, and Taiwanese cuisine falls into part of Chinese cuisines. History of Taiwan during the Koxinga era, between 1680 to 1895 (Qing rule) and from 1945 onwards (as a province of the ROC) is part of Chinese history.

The problem that many articles are linked to "China" meaning the PRC has temporarily been solved by the notice at the top of the China article, taking readers to the article People's Republic of China. In other cases, such as "..of China", are being solved by redirects or disambiguations (to "..of the PRC"/"..of mainland China").

Mainland China refers to PRC's territory excluding Hong Kong and Macao, with little dispute. The Mainland Affairs Commission of ROC's Executive Yuan does differentiate between mainland and Hong Kong + Macao. (see Talk:Mainland China#Scope of the term mainland China for details) It is neither an ROC- nor a Hong Kong-centric term, as reflected by the following materials produced by the PRC government.

Latest Satistics on SARS on Mainland China (15/04/2003) [5]
Education System in Mainland China [6]
Regulations of the State Council for Encouragement of Investment by Overseas Chinese and Compatriots from Hong Kong and Macao [7]
Reform gradualism and evolution of exchange rate regime in Mainland China (a speech delievered by the governor of the People's Bank of China) (doc format) [8]

When it has come to a decision among the terms "China", "PRC" or "mainland China"; "Taiwan" or "ROC, a simple rule of thumb, as I have mentioned here and elsewhere, is to depend on the scopes of the content of the articles or the categories. It doesn't matter whether it involves the government(s) or not.

An article about the entirety of territories under PRC's control, i.e. mainland China (22 provinces, 5 autonomous regions and 4 municipalities), Hong Kong and Macao included, should be titled ".. of the People's Republic of China". An article about mainland China, i.e. with Hong Kong and Macao excluded, should be titled ".. of mainland China".

An article about the entirety of territories under ROC's control, i.e. the island of Taiwan (including offshore islands such as Green Island and Orchid Island), Pescadores, Pratas, Matsu, Kinmen, Wuchiu, etc., should be titled ".. of the Republic of China". An article about Taiwan (i.e. Taiwan island plus Pescadores, with Pescadores, Pratas, Matsu, Kinmen, Wuchiu, etc. excluded) should be titled ".. of Taiwan".

Redirects and disambiguation are, very often, necessary to avoid making less well-informed readers in trouble.

Although "mainland China", "Taiwan", "Hong Kong" and "Macau" are not sovereign states, they are very often listed or categorised along with other countries, on lists of countries. The same have been done for dependent territories, and a handful of subnational entities (which are mostly French DOMs). — Insta ntnood 08:49, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

My response to a few of SchmuckyTheCat's comments

" 7. Hong Kong and Macau are part of the People's Republic of China. They are also special. They should not be categorized or treated as seperate from China. Articles about Hong Kong and Macau have the responsibility to state why and how they are different from the People's Republic of China, not vice versa. The differentness of HK and Macau shouldn't be used to rename other Chinese entities. "

He suggested Hong Kong and Macau are parts of the PRC, which is a status quo that everybody has to agreed wtih. But I guess she/he is referring to the differences between Hong Kong and Macau, and mainland China, rather than Hong Kong and Macau, and PRC.

" 4. The primary articles on China and the People's Republic of China should mention that neither "China" nor the PRC is homogenous in laws, language, custom, etc. The extremely loose federated system for provincial control in the PRC allows a wide variety of systems to be practiced. Individual articles should detail how things are different. "

From a political science point of view, the PRC is not a loose federation, but a unitary State. Typical example of federations include Switzerland, Germany, Canada and the United States.

" My opinion on statement 2. ... First, Wikipedia recognizes the status quo to the political situation. The status quo is that Taiwan does not control the geographical entity called China. It is NPOV to allow China to refer to the PRC in most contexts. ... Fourth, we must take into account the intention of the thousands of other articles that sloppily link to "China". We aren't giving the PRC exclusive rights to the name China, but we are acknowleding and accomodating common use. "

Like what I have already mentioned, it is a POV to say either "Taiwan" is or is not part of "China" the geographical region.

The common use can be solved by redirects and disambiguations, as well as by the notices at the top of articles.

" My opinion on Statement 3. Republic of China is what the government there prefers. We should respect that. However, insisting that "Republic of China" is more accurate or less POV than Taiwan is as POV as anything else. Some Taiwanese prefer Taiwan, some prefer ROC, some probably prefer Formosa or Chinese Taipei. The meaning of Taiwan geographically is one thing, but in our global culture, the word "Taiwan" has expanded to mean the political entity, the language, and the unique culture that has sprung up there. We should encourage broad and encompassing terms. We don't need to rename articles (unless there is a naming conflict, of course) if we can have more explanatory text in the articles. "

Simple examples, History of Taiwan, Taiwanese cuisine or Culture of Taiwan has nothing to do with Quemoy (Kinmen) and Matsu. Differentiating "Taiwan" and "Republic of China" has the merit of solving many problems in proper titling, to tell the scope of the content of articles and categories.

" My opinion on statement 4, 5, 6. This is a huge problem. Mainland China is being used as a substitute, and using the current naming conventions to justify it, for the People's Republic of China. This is horribly POV for Taiwan and HK centric articles (and wiki users) to be defining the PRC with such a term. The term defines what mainland China is not, but can't define what it is because what it is is context dependent. From Taiwan, mainland China is every part of China that isn't Taiwan. From Hong Kong, mainland China is all of China except the SAR. "

See the materials by the PRC that I have quoted above. "Mainland China" is not an ROC- or Hong Kong-centric term. The ROC does differentiate between Hong Kong and Macau from the mainland. In Hong Kong and Macau the term "mainland China" does not cover ROC's territory.

"Mainland China" is not used as a substitute to "PRC". Its use depends on situation, and the scope of the content of an article or a category. Saying some users are using it as a substitute reveals that one is not well-informed with the issue. — Insta ntnood 08:49, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

My position

I agree with the current set of naming conventions. If modification is necessary, I would agree with slight clarifications, rather than changing the meanings. — Insta ntnood 08:49, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

_'s view

Names order

I find it confusing that Chinese family/clan name should be listed before given names, as opposed to Western practice; ordinary people would never know about this convention from reading the articles. I believe the most intuitive way is to mention the names in Western order on the first line and then provide Chinese names and transliterations in native order using a table/template. For example, Mao Zedong should be noted in the intro as Zedong (Tse-tong) Mao, then the rest of the article is free to use native name order and most common name (see also Stalin).

The given names should also be preferred over family/clan name when referencing by part of the full name ^update:in the rest of the article, i.e.

Kai-shek or Chiang 'Kai-shek, but not Chiang alone
Zedong or Mao Zedong or Chairman Mao, but not Mao alone.

DmitryKo 07:34, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up... I took a look at Mao Zedong and, sure enough, it seems to assume that the reader already knows how Chinese names work. Certainly a better, clearer template would help in solving this problem.

However, both reversing the two names ("Zedong Mao") and putting just the first name ("Zedong") would be highly unusual and jarring in both Chinese and English usage. It's conventional to stick to the original order: "Mao Zedong". It's also conventional in English to use the last name alone: "Mao". How about capitalizing the last name in the intro: MAO Zedong? -- ran (talk) 07:43, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

I agree having the family name CAPITALISED or underlined on the first line of an article. — Insta ntnood 10:15, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

No, since western media, acadmic texts, and everything in English I've read keeps the Chinese order surname before given names. Wikipedia should be no exception. International convention is to capitalize the surname (e.g. this is done in the CIA World Factbook). I would support making this a convention. --Ji ang

It would be counter-intuitive for a reader to encounter a single all-caps surname per dozens of conventinal ones. How would he know it's a Chinese-only convention for family/clan name, again? To make it obvious, every surname would need to be capitalized; it's too much of a work and most non-English names don't even need this because they follow Western practice.

A similar naming confusion exists for some Russian persons. It's solved by keeping common article name but providing a correctly transliterated native name(s) in the intro. It's entirely painless because the follow-up reverts to common name (usually surname as the most unique part of the name); the intro is treated as a clarification. See Joseph Stalin, Leo Tolstoy, Mikhail Gorbachev, Vladimir Lenin, Nikita Khrushchev, Leon Trotsky.

Such practice could be applied to Chinese persons as well, with the only exception: a given name (courtesy name, posthumous name, era name etc.) should be used as partial name throughout the rest of the article (I'm sorry I didn't made it explicitly clear), because it's the most unique part of Chinese name; full names should follow the established 'family name goes first' pattern. DmitryKo 19:32, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

a given name should be used as partial name -- this is extremely unusual and unconventional. I have never seen any piece of writing refer to Mao Zedong as simply "Zedong" in either English or Chinese. The first reaction of a Chinese reader to simply "Zedong" would be, "what, is the author Mao's mom or something?" As you can imagine this is not the reaction we want to get.

Putting Zedong Mao would also be highly unusual in a scholarly work. People do it with their personal names, but this is not done in encyclopedias referring to famous personnages. This is simply a convention that we have to follow, because doing it the other way looks jarring and wrong.

I understand that Chinese names are confusing to western readers. The best way to solve this is probably a template. But please don't introduce conventions that nobody else uses. -- ran (talk) 21:51, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Capitalization is an international standard. It is not counter-intuitive and the reader will smell something going on when we keep referring to the person by his surname in the article. What you are proposing is done nowhere. No publication of any scholarly repute or standard would ever do that. Only confused and ignorant people do what you propose, and only mistakenly so. It's also awfully western-centric. --Ji ang 22:24, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I support either CAPITALISED or underlined. Underline is the practice in some countries, such as the United Kingdom. — Insta ntnood 11:05, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Let's stick with the current system, which corresponds to widespread English and Chinese usage. It so happens that English publications tend to follow the native order for Chinese names (Zhou Enlai or Chou En-lai, not Enlai Zhou), do not use the native order for Hungarian names (Bela Bartok, not Bartók Béla), and use both orders for Japanese names (Junichiro Koizumi is far more frequent than Koizumi Jun'ichirō; but Kato Takaaki is more frequent than Takaaki Kato). We should indicate family names somehow, but there is no need to change the current usage for Chinese or Hungarian names (I feel differently about Japanese names, though). --MarkSweep 07:40, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The only occassion where Chinese names are written following western pattern is the names of anglicised or americanized people, such as Wen Ho Lee. It never happens for names based on Hanyu Pinyin. — Insta ntnood 11:05, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

At present this convention breaches the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV) and this is unacceptable. It says that Wikipedia treats Taiwan as a sovereign state, and then implies that the sovereign state should be called "Republic of China". First, as a straightforward matter of fact, Taiwan is not a sovereign state - and nobody recognises it as such. Wikipedia should report, not invent a fiction here.

Secondly, the term "Republic of China" is not only confusing, but is also only a term used by the Taiwanese. The Chinese government in Beijing has made it clear that it views Taiwan to be a renegate province. It has recently passed an anti-secession law, is planning military rehearsals on an invasion of Taiwan with Russia, and does not recognise that there is such a thing as the "Republic of China". We really can't take the Taiwanese side on this. Especially as there is no need as everybody in real life appears willing to use the term "Taiwan" instead.

I therefore propose that we note the political situation and comment that Wikipedia takes no side in this dispute. Then that we prefer the term "Taiwan" as all sides of the dispute are ok with using that term - which seems to be the best approach to getting NPOV, jguk 12:00, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

@@ Line 400: / Line 400: @@
 Let's stick with the current system, which corresponds to widespread English and Chinese usage.  It so happens that English publications tend to follow the native order for Chinese names (''Zhou Enlai'' or ''Chou En-lai'', not ''Enlai Zhou''), do not use the native order for Hungarian names (''Bela Bartok'', not ''Bartók Béla''), and use both orders for Japanese names (''Junichiro Koizumi'' is far more frequent than ''Koizumi Jun'ichir&#333;''; but ''Kato Takaaki'' is more frequent than ''Takaaki Kato''). We should indicate family names somehow, but there is no need to change the current usage for Chinese or Hungarian names (I feel differently about Japanese names, though). --[[User:MarkSweep|MarkSweep]] 07:40, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 :The only occassion where Chinese names are written following western pattern is the names of anglicised or americanized people, such as [[Wen Ho Lee]]. It never happens for names based on Hanyu Pinyin.  &mdash; [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 11:05, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
+==NPOV==
+At present this convention breaches the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View policy ([[WP:NPOV]]) and this is unacceptable. It says that Wikipedia treats Taiwan as a sovereign state, and then implies that the sovereign state should be called "Republic of China". First, as a straightforward matter of fact, Taiwan is not a sovereign state - and nobody recognises it as such. Wikipedia should report, not invent a fiction here.
+Secondly, the term "Republic of China" is not only confusing, but is also only a term used by the Taiwanese. The Chinese government in Beijing has made it clear that it views Taiwan to be a renegate province. It has recently passed an anti-secession law, is planning military rehearsals on an invasion of Taiwan with Russia, and does not recognise that there is such a thing as the "Republic of China". We really can't take the Taiwanese side on this. Especially as there is no need as everybody in real life appears willing to use the term "Taiwan" instead.
+I therefore propose that we note the political situation and comment that Wikipedia takes no side in this dispute. Then that we prefer the term "Taiwan" as all sides of the dispute are ok with using that term - which seems to be the best approach to getting NPOV, [[User:Jguk|jguk]] 12:00, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)