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#REDIRECT [[Norrie disease]]
==Discussions==
=== Old ===

Zastanawiam się czy nie byłoby dobrze wkleić gdzieś przed listą art do zrobienia/poszerzenia nastepującego tekstu z ikonkami wikibooksowymi. Cały tekst sciągnołem z duńskiego notice boardu. [[User:Vuvar1|Vuvar1]] 01:07, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC):
:Wstawilem w tabelke.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 10:31, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Przejrzałem artykuł [[Wigilia]]. Jeśli ktoś pamięta jakieś konkretne metody wróżenia (poza siankiem), to proszę dopisać [[User:Silvermane|Silvermane]] 11:11, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===To-Do List===

This page attempts to organize and keep track of the articles on Poland and Polish related subjects on Wikipedia. Each article is assigned a level of completedness according to the following scale:

[[Image:25%.png]] - stub, a paragraph or two, completely inadequate. <br>
[[Image:50%.png]] - maybe a few paragraphs, but coverage is inadequate, still missing some basic information. <br>
[[Image:75%.png]] - Many paragraphs, covers all, or almost all, basic information, provides a bit of depth. <br>
[[Image:100%.png]] - Featured article status, or has gone as far as it can go, as in the case of a simple list. <br>

When rating articles keep in mind the subject at hand. A very broad topic could be considered inadequate even if it is much longer than another article on a very narrow topic.

Please update the page as you see fit.

===Witam===

Witam wszystkich i zapraszam na kawe :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 12:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Obecny! [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 14:46, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
:&#346;wietny pomys&#322;! [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 14:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Podaje kawe, kanapeczki leza na stoliku kolo to-do list, prosze sie czestowac. :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 15:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::: Witam! [[User:Azalero|Azalero]] 15:12, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Hmmm... rozumiem &#380;e za ka&#380;d&#261; kanapeczk&#281; trzeba zap&#322;aci&#263; Poland-related artyku&#322;em, czy tak? Bo je&#347;li nie, to co si&#281; wrzuca do tej puszki obok? [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 15:42, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

:::Witaj Azarelo. Halibutt, dzis wyjatkowo w nastroju sielankowym z powodu otwarcia, kanapki sa za free - ale jak masz jakies drobne ''Poland-related artykuly'', to mozesz smialo wrzucic do puszki :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 15:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::W zwiazku z tym ze zjadles najwiecej kanapek a puszke omijales - mam tu cos dla Ciebie do rozkrecenia Hallibucie: [[Current events in Poland]] - pracowales jako dziennikarz wiec nie bedziesz mial z tym problemu ;)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 17:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dzie&#324; dobry, a co to za flaga, jaka&#347; taka militarna ? [[User:Wojsyl|Wojsyl]] 16:09, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Wstawilem taka sama jaka jest na polskim portalu - polonia za granica uzywa flagi z orzelkiem, a ze jestesmy tu na wikipedii ang. jezycznej.. :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 16:14, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Równie&#380; jestem, za&#347; flaga jak najbardziej cywilna. Bandera MW ma przecie&#380; wci&#281;cie, to (z mojego &#380;eglarskiego POV), nasza handlowa/cywilna bandera :) [[User:Radomil|Radomil]] 16:35, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hm, ciekawie sie zapowaiada, aczkolwiek poprzednie podobne rzeczy (jak [[WikiProject History of Poland]]) raczej po krotkim okresie aktywnosci i radosci przestaly byc uzywane... --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 16:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:W przypadku history of Poland, bylo jedynie o historii, tutaj mozna o wszystkim. Prywatne strony sa caly czas w ruchu, wiec miejmy nadzieje ze sie rozkreci. --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 17:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::No nie, lito&#347;ci, zajmowa&#322;em (i zajmuj&#281;) si&#281; dziennikarstwem, ale nie mam si&#322;y na codzienne duplikowanie doniesie&#324; PAPu na wiki. Troch&#281; za du&#380;o roboty, zostawiam to zapale&#324;com od WikiNews. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 15:01, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

===Polish Collaboration of the week===
Co o tym sadzicie? Moze co dwa lub co trzy tygodnie?--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 17:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: Co dwa tygodnie jest chyba za malo osób. wi&#281;c moze trzy? na poczatek proponuje rozbudowac [[Mikolaj Rej]] --[[User:Azalero|Azalero]] 19:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Masz racje, co trzy a nawet co miesiac. Gdyby sie rozkrecilo za jakis czas, i nastapila fala nowych uzytkownikow, mozna zawsze zmniejszyc odstep.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 06:55, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::A co do pierwszej nominacji, proponowal bym [[Wawel]]&Co.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 10:43, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::Mo&#380;e by&#263; Wawel. Kiedy&#347; sp&#281;dzi&#322;em w katedrze wawelskiej trzy dni na wyk&#322;adach z historii sztuki, wi&#281;c ch&#281;tnie pomog&#281;. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 15:04, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

::::Swietnie dodam Twoje poparcie na stronie ''Polish Collaboration of the Week''.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 09:34, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: Ja bym proponowal rotowac co dwa tygodnie (da sie zrobic, panowie, co to dla nas) miedzy 3 typami artykulow: 1) stubem do PolCoTW 2) czyms wiekszym co mozna poprawic na FA - cos jak AIDrive i 3) czerwonym linkiem do rozbudowy w stuba --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 10:35, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Z ta rotacja miedzy typami artykulow dobry pomysl. Wejdz na Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Polish Wikipedians' notice board/PLCOTW]] i dopisz lub pozmieniaj zasady wedlug wlasnego uznania.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 09:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===Przypadki i wypadki===

Czo&#322;em, potrzebuje poparcia: Anti-Semitism in Poland [[Talk%3AAnti-Semitism#ANti-semitism_in_Poland|dyskusja]] i [[Anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism_in_Poland|artykul]]. Niestety jest to znowu HKT. --[[User:Ttyre|Ttyre]] 05:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Witam:) Aczkolwiek ja ostatnio mam bardzo malo czasu na wiki. Na dodatek niepotrzebnie sie znowu wdalem w dyskusje z HKT :) [[User:Szopen|Szopen]] 07:48, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Ten HKT chyba nie dazy Polske wielka sympatia...--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 07:13, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Zapewne to nadinterpretacja, ale HKT kojarzy mi si&#281; z panami '''H'''ansemannem, '''K'''ennemannem i '''T'''iedemannem :) [[User:Radomil|Radomil]] 07:56, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::Rzeczywiscie pasuje ;)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 10:43, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[[Chopin]] - kolejna bezsensowna dykusja, na temat kolejnego polskiego patrioty... Ale mam nadzieje ze osoba ktora kwestionuje Chopina polskosc da spokoj.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 07:13, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mysle ze te przepychanki maja sens, zwlaszcza w tak waznych haslach jak [[Anti-Semitism]]. W rankingu google.com ten artykul zajmuje 10 pozycje. Moje kolejne propozycje sa w [[Talk%3AAnti-Semitism#ANti-semitism_in_Poland|talk]]. --[[User:Ttyre|Ttyre]] 09:37, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:No tak, oczywiscie, chodzilo mi tylko o te niekonczace sie dyskusje na temat narodowosci poszczegolnych Polakow - strasznie meczace. Jezeli kiedys mozna bylo ironicznie powiedziec "no tak, moze papiez tez nie jest Polakiem co?!? (chodzi o Jana Pawla)" to juz jest na to za pozno, bo jakis czas temu ktos chcial zrobic z niego Litwina... :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 10:43, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mowiac o przepychankach - zobaczcie ta w ktorej obecnie uczestnicze: [[Talk%3AHistory_of_the_Jews_in_Poland|talk]]. --[[User:Ttyre|Ttyre]] 15:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Eh. Staram sie balansowac to wszystko, ale niekiedy glupota ludzka nie ma granic. Naprawde, co niektorzy maja przeciwko Polsce? Mozna by o anty-polonizmie zrobic niezly doktorat...zreszta, pewnie sa. Eh. 9/10 to marnowanie czasu, ktory mozna by poswiecic na lepsze artykuly. Te nazwy miast to tez mnie rozsmieszaja, aczkolwiek jesli ktos sie spodziewa, ze ja bede pisal Danzig przy PLC, to niech czeka tatka latka. Choc - dla szlachty byl Gdansk, dla mieszkancow w zasadzie Danzig. Eh. Ide cos poedytowac konstruktywnie :) --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 21:56, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:No jak nie widzisz szarlotki? Stoje tu od pieciu minut z talerzykiem powoli bita smietana opada - prosze smacznego :) Co do antypolonizmu - trzeba rozbudowac artykul. Dzis bylo wspaniale przedstawianie, gdy czern sie rzucila na Halibutta. Czy to nie ciekawe ze gdy ktos wciska niemieckie nazwy do polskich artykulow, w ktorych one sa potrzebne jak pryszcz na... , dostaje lizaka i buziaka w czolko od adminow, a ten co go zrewertuje klapsa? Czy nie ciekawy jest fakt, ze ktos kto doda polskie nazwy do niemieckich miast, zostanie spalony na stosie? A ten co przyniesie drewno i rozpali lizaka i czolego buziaka od adminow w policzek? Jeszcze ten litwiak chcial "zarobic" na dzisiejszej wojence, jakies punkty dla swoich litewskich marzen i sie wcinal w dyskusje, jak sep ktory tylko czeka na okazje by wsadzic komus noz w plecy. Jak bedziesz tam w Wilnie na wycieczce to namaluj kotwice na jakims budynku lub przystanku ;) Sytuacja na wikipedii w zasadzie przedstawia historie Polski. Z kazdej strony atakuja, a sprzymiezencow nie widac.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 22:16, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===Nazwy===
:::A tak z nieco innej beczki: my&#347;la&#322;em jak rozwi&#261;za&#263; ca&#322;y problem nazw miejsc. Zastanawiam si&#281; nad tym od jakiego&#347; czasu i powoli dochodz&#281; do wniosku, &#380;e jedynym sprawiedliwym rozwi&#261;zaniem by&#322;oby ustalenie jednolitych zasad dla wszystkich takich miejsc na wiki, niezale&#380;nie jakiego kraju by dotyczy&#322;y. Jak wida&#263; cho&#263;by na przyk&#322;adzie Gda&#324;ska g&#322;osowania cz&#281;&#347;ciowe nie rozwi&#261;zuj&#261; problemu, zw&#322;aszcza przy takim a nie innym zachowaniu Krzysia. My&#347;l&#281; &#380;e podobnie b&#281;dzie z najnowszym pomys&#322;em DeirYassina odno&#347;nie spraw polsko-litewskich. Dlatego uwa&#380;am, &#380;e chyba nale&#380;a&#322;oby przymierzy&#263; si&#281; do przygotowania propozycji ogólnowikipediowej zasady co do toponimów wymienianych w nag&#322;ówku, jak równie&#380; toponimów u&#380;ywanych w tre&#347;ci artyku&#322;ów. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 15:00, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

::Popieram idee ogolnowikipediowej zasady toponimow. --[[User:Ttyre|Ttyre]] 15:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::Tak, to dobry pomysl, tylko zanim dojdzie do jakis ustalen, nastapi tysiace revertow.. :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 16:13, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::I powinno to byc ustalone w formie logicznej dyskusji a nie glosowania w ktorym 90% osob nawet nie wie dokladnie o jakie miasto chodzi przy oddawaniu swojego krzyzyka (jak w wypadku glosowania gdanskiego). Ogladalem sobie ludzi ktorzy tam glosowali na niemiecka forme nazwy - byl np. taki 14-latek ktory glosowal za niemiecka forma, jak dobrze pamietam Amerykanin. Jestem w 100% pewny ze nigdy sie nie interesowal Gdanskiem, i bardzo prawdopodobne ze pierwszy raz o takim miescie uslyszal tutaj na Wiki - ogladajac jego ''contributions'' zwrocilem uwage ze chyba lubi poprostu glosowac, bo strzelal swoje glosy pod rzad w wielu roznych glosowaniach. Przegladajac dalej trafilem na jego obrabianie artykulu o grupie muzycznej Rammstein - wyciagnelelem wiec wniosek, ze dlatego glosowal na Danzig, bo lubi metal i kojarzy mu sie z grupa Danzig albo poprostu poprzez sluchanie Rammsteinu poczul sympatie do Niemcow lub niemieckiego jezyka... Reszta glosujacych raz sie pojawila na glosowanie i nigdy wiecej nie dyskutowala ani nie brala udzialu w tworzeniu artykulow o Polsce - Krzysiek wrecz organizowal ''przyjazdy'' na te glosowanie i oddanie glosu oczywiscie na sranzig jak Samoobrona w wyborach samorzadowych... I tak panowie tworzy sie encyklopedia !! :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 16:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
=== [[Wigilia]] ===

Czy jest sens tworzenia oddzielnego hasla na ten temat skoro jest [[Christmas Eve]] tylko po to, zeby dodac ze to polska nazwa tego swieta? a moze lepiej powiekszyc ten [[Christmas Eve]] o akapit na temat polskiej wersji tego swieta i tam umiescic polska nazwe. Dodatkowo w [[Christmas Day]] jest caly gotowy akapit na temat [[Christmas Eve]] w Polsce [[Christmas_Day#Central_Europe]] --[[User:Azalero|Azalero]] 07:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Trudno powiedziec czy jest sens tworzenia oddzielnego hasla - faktem jest jednak ze na temat wigilii w Polsce (i jej roznic w stosunku do zachodniej czesci europy) mozna by bylo napisac spory artykul.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 08:12, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===Dzi&#281;ki za zaproszenie===



: Zawsze przyjemnie przeczytac cos z sensem :) Tak na marginesie, ta twoja 'paraliteracka zabawa' bardzo mi wyglada na [[role playing game]]. Jesli mozna - gdzie tak grasz? Bo z kontekstru wynika, jakby to bylo na jakis zajeciach z obcokrajowacami? Jako czlonek [http://ptbg.urbantrip.com/phpBB2/index.php Polskiego Towarzystwa Badania Gier] jestem tym fachowo zainteresowny :) Co do edukacji w zaborach/komunizmie, to mysle, ze masz racje. Ruskie bardzo skutecznie stosowaly w edukacji 'divide and conquer' by zniweczyc dominujaca polska kulture. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 21:34, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'''... And a lady''' (I answer in English to make JCarriker happy). I play in internet that's why the society is so various. If you are really interested I'd rather provide you with all the particulars in an email (if you don't mind) as I don't want to take even more of the precious space, which should be devoted to discussions on articles.

: Email it is, then. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 07:27, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'''Now to JCarriker'''
Oh my, I have a real problem now. I wrote the longest post here and would have to do the most tiring work. Would it be agreeable to you, if I offer a short summary instead of an exact translation? I posted a comment on Wikipedia for the first time about two days ago or one in your time zone. I received a few encouraging comments as well as an invitation to this board. So, in my post I simply state my thanks and a not-so-short explanation of where I came from and why I found Wikipedia such a wonderful and useful tool. I also wanted to leave to my Polish colleagues a chocolate (or a box of pralines) for their superior work. As my post doesn't cover any topics, which should be discussed here, but refers to my personal experience, I considered it, even before, a bit out of place, only that I thought it would be the easiest way to address everyone here. So, if you don't mind, I would hang on here for a week in the Polish version and then delete the post entirely as it will not be live any more.

BTW I assure you that there is nothing on this page that wasn&#8217;t said on discussion pages before. Only that when we see a Polish flag with a Crowned Polish White Eagle, we feel like at home and speaking Polish seems only natural. --[[User:SylwiaS|SylwiaS]] 02:17, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:My main concern is to get the section about other users translated, other translations can wait, and you don't necessarily have to do it. I have left you more specific comments on your talk. -[[User:JCarriker|JCarriker]] 05:15, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

: ''"Nie wiem jednak, czy b&#281;d&#281; pomocna w Waszych artyku&#322;ach."''
: Wydaje mi sie ze wrecz przeciwnie :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 09:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
: ''"Mam do Was pytanie o Rzeczpospolit&#261;. Nie odnosicie wra&#380;enia, &#380;e sowiecki system edukacji by&#322; nastawiony na wyra&#378;ne odci&#281;cie Ksi&#281;stwa Litewskiego od Królestwa Polskiego? Dlaczego w&#322;a&#347;ciwie Bia&#322;orusini tak wyra&#378;nie podkre&#347;laj&#261; swoj&#261; przynale&#380;no&#347;&#263; do Litwy a nie do Polski?"''
:Trafne spostrzezenie, co do sowieckiego systemu edukacji. Co do Bialorusinow, mozna by bylo zaprosic do dyskusji kogos z bialoruskich uzytkownikow obecnych tu na wiki, bo tez mnie to troche dziwi--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 09:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

=== English please ===
Gentlemen, I am someone that has come to your aid when you needed it at Vilnius&#8212; but I must protest the primary use of Polish on the page. True this is the Polish collaboration, but its on the English wikipedia. I strongly suggest you at the least offer translations of your discussion on this page. It's not your user page, it's a public space and other wikipedians have a right to know what it is your discussing. I'd also strongly discourage you from talking about other users, on a ''collaboration'' project in a language that they don't understand. I'll give you a day to offer a translation of ''that'' discussion, if I don't see one I'll alert the users you were talking about of it. I have worked positively with y'all in the past and it is my hope we can do so in the future, but your actions her are going to encourage Anti-Polish sentiment not stir an interest in covering Polish topics better. -[[User:JCarriker|JCarriker]] 00:30, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

: While I agree you have a point about this being English wiki, I would like to point out that there is plenty of Machine Translations Polish to English online, and anybody interested can translate their entries. Nothing in the above context is 'secret'. Witkacy may translate this (as he wrote most of it), if not, feel free to MT it yourself and post it here if you think it is important enough. Note that I have seen my name used in Lithuanian and Russian-language discussions but I never felt they were planning anything conspicious. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 07:24, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

=== Wrong place ===

While I am positivly suprised about the activity of this board, I'd like to suggest moving talk to, well, talk, and keeping this front page clear for to-do list and other templates/useful things. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 07:29, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Moim zdaniem niech zostanie tutaj. Na samym poczatku zastanawialem sie czy dyskusje nie rozpoczac na stronie dyskusyjnej - ale pustka na tej stronie by zaswiecila. Zostala by tylko ''to do'' lista i linki do trzech projektow.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 09:24, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Piotr, I deleted my Polish message, I still feel that the rest of the thread is not connected to the subject of this page, but I don’t want to touch any messages of others. Please, feel free to move it or delete if it’s ok with everyone. I see JCarriker's point of view, if we care about opinions of others, we should let them participate in our discussion. I’ll email you soon. --[[User:SylwiaS|SylwiaS]] 16:22, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

=== ...and justice for all ===

Widowisko ---> [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR|"sprawiedliwosci"]] - Boothy443/Chris 73 (nie pierwszy raz) zlamal regule trzech cofniec, lecz nie zostal zbanowany chroniac sie "immunitetem". Halibutt mial takie same prawo (jak pan B. i pan C.) zgodnie z wynikiem glosowania lamac regule trzech cofniec i chronic sie immunitetem, zostal ... zbanowany... Wedlug orwellowskiej zasady "sa rowni i rowniejsi [na ang wikipedii]" ... tykalni i nietykalni ... --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 20:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:: Please use English, especially when reffering to other users. Unfortunately, Halibutt's behaviour broke 3RR and bordered on POINT, so it is not all white and black - although, as I stated, I am on his side. But it is difficult to be the only person defending him against many. Anyway, in what looks like a clear violation of 3RR block rule, halibutt has been blocked for over 24h. Feel free to voice your opinion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Halibutt]]. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 09:39, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::: Juz swoje zdanie tam napisalem. Co tam wiecej pisac, jak o jedno pieterko wyzej widnieje moj raport o zlamaniu 3rr przez Krzysia a jeszcze wyzej przez Bocika w identycznej sprawie jak Halibutta... Halibutt zlamal regule 3rr.. i Krzysiek tak samo (i to juz chyba 3 raz). Albo sie wszystkich banuje, albo nikogo. A nie wybiera. "...share a history between Germany and Poland.." moze sluzyc za alibi do wszystkiego.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 10:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

=== [[Wisla Krakow]] ===
Jakby ktos znalazl czas - przyda&#322;oby sie przetlumaczyc, bo po anglijskiemu jest tam tylko pare s&#322;ów...A&#380; razi,a ja na razie nie mam czasu. [[User:Vuvar1|Vuvar1]] 18:03, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===Polish News ===

Ochotnicy poszukiwani na [[:Template:Wikiportal:Poland/Polish News]] (ktore beda pojawialy sie na [[Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Poland]]) i [[Current events in Poland]] - studiujesz dziennikarstwo? Pocwicz na wikipedii ! :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 09:30, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Aby nie dublowac funkcji polecam korzytac z [http://pl.wikinews.org/ polskiego Wikinews] albo wrzucic do tamtejszej kawiarenki prosbe o pomoc. --[[User:Derbeth|Derbeth]] 10:50, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::I tak zrobilem :) Wystawilem juz tam prosbe, jak narazie dwie osoby sa zainteresowane.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 11:01, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===Editing sections===
I've got problems editing sections of this article. When I want to edit only part of talk and click on <nowiki>[Edit]</nowiki>, I get another section. What's going on? BTW, I use Opera internet browser. --[[User:Derbeth|Derbeth]] 10:50, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Mam ten sam problem, nie wiem dlaczego tak sie dzieje. Sprawdze pozniej jak to jest rozwiazane na innych ''notice boardach'' --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 11:03, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Nie wiem skad te przesuniecie - potrzebny jest jakis ''wiki-expert''--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 12:02, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Same problem here (Firefox).. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 12:31, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
Ok, fixed. Problem was caused by <nowiki><h2></nowiki> tag used at the beginning, which confused Wiki mechanism. I think this shows one should be very careful mixing Wiki code and HTML - take this in consideration in the future. --[[User:Derbeth|Derbeth]] 14:56, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===Bot-generated articles===
At pl, there's a project to use a bot to generate/update articles about Polish cities, counties and communes: [[:pl:Wikipedia:Automatycznie generowane artyku&#322;y]]. Maybe the same data (when it's compiled) could be used to generate them at en:? [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 18:31, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
: Interesting. Perhaps, but Machine Translation needs human help. Anyway, talking about bot projects, check [[User:Piotrus/List_of_Poles]] :) --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 16:32, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Here are two examples of articles which will be used as templates for future bot-generated ones: [[Gostyn]], [[Stary Gostyn]]. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 22:21, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Pomysl bardzo ciekawy. Tylko proponowal bym autorom zmienic tabelke na bardziej "nowoczesna" w stylu jak mamy na [[Poland]] (cieniutkie ramki) i potrzebne jest jeszcze oczywiscie miejsce na herb i flage i wstawienie link oficjalnej strony miasta, rowniez do tabelki--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 11:07, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===[[Minsk]] i [[Kijów]]===

Polskie nazwy owych miast zostaly skasowane. Moze Ci co tak zaciekle wstawiaja niemieckie nazwy do polskich miast, a szczegolnie do artykulow o polskich partiach, klubach etc. powinni wyruszyc teraz na wschod i walczyc tam o trzymanie sie regul wikipedii? Co Wy o tym sadzicie?--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 19:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

''English translation: The Polish names of these cities have been removed. Maybe those who so vociferously put in German names into articles about Polish cities, especially articles about Polish political parties, sports clubs etc. should now set out for the East and there fight to uphold the rules of Wikipedia? What do you think about this?[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 19:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)'' [[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 19:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

:Przywrocilem w Minsku (nie wiem na jak d&#322;ugo), ale w Kijowie to sie szykuje wojna :) [[User:Vuvar1|Vuvar1]] 00:01, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:''English translation: I restored it in [[Minsk]] (don't know for how long), but in [[Kiev]] war is looming.[[User:Vuvar1|Vuvar1]] 00:01, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

::Przywrocilem w Kijowie.[[User:Space Cadet|Space Cadet]] 01:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::''English translation: Restored it in [[Kiev]]. [[User:Space Cadet|Space Cadet]] 01:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

:::''Rok 2005 by&#322; to dziwny rok, w którym rozmaite znaki na niebie i ziemi zwiastowa&#322;y jakowe&#347; kl&#281;ski i nadzwyczajne zdarzenia...'' (Sienkiewicz) ;)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 08:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::''English translation: Year 2005 was a strange year, during which various signs in the sky and on the earth heralded some disasters and extraordinary events. ([[Sienkiewicz]] quote, modified opening line of [[With Fire and Sword]]) ;)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 08:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

:::Czy naprawd&#281; warto si&#281; o to bi&#263;? Miasto przecie&#380; w praktyce nale&#380;a&#322;o do Korony tylko od [[1569]] do [[1654]], czyli mniej ni&#380; sto lat. Od momentu utracenia Kijowa min&#281;&#322;o ju&#380; ponad 350 lat. Polacy nigdy nie byli wi&#281;kszo&#347;ci&#261; w tym mie&#347;cie, cho&#263; wiem oczywi&#347;cie &#380;e byli tam poka&#378;n&#261; mniejszo&#347;ci&#261; a&#380; do pocz&#261;tków XX wieku. Tak wi&#281;c, mo&#347;ci panowie, mo&#380;e dajmy ju&#380; spokój. Zamiast wojenek revertowych, lepiej napisa&#263; porz&#261;dny rozdzia&#322; o wk&#322;adzie Polaków w histori&#281; Kijowa. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 03:01, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::''English translation: Is it really worthwhile to fight over this? After all, the city belonged to the Crown in practice only from 1569 for 1654, i.e. less than a hundred years. Since the time of Kijów's loss over 350 years have already passed. Poles were never a majority in the city, though I know of course that they formed a significant minority until the beginning of the 20th century. So, gentelmen, give it a rest. Instead of fighting revert wars, it would be better to write a proper chapter about the contribution of Poles to the history of Kiev.[[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 03:01, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

Chyba warto, jednak. [[User:Space Cadet|Space Cadet]] 03:07, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

''English translation: Probably worthwhile, after all. [[User:Space Cadet|Space Cadet]] 03:07, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) ''

:Mam z&#322;e przeczucie &#380;e je&#380;eli b&#281;dziemy upierali si&#281; przy nazwie Kijów w [[Kiev]], to w odwecie kto&#347; b&#281;dzie próbowa&#322; wcisn&#261;&#263; &#1042;&#1072;&#1088;&#1096;&#1072;&#1074;&#1072; do [[Warsaw]]. I trudno b&#281;dzie z tym si&#281; spiera&#263;. Je&#347;li rz&#261;dzenie Kijowem przez sto lat upowa&#380;nia nas do wciskania polskiej nazwy, to wed&#322;ug takiej samej logiki to samo nale&#380;y si&#281; Rosjanom, szczególnie &#380;e ich rz&#261;dy w Warszawie sko&#324;czy&#322;y si&#281; nieledwie sto lat temu. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 05:41, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:''English translation: I have a bad premonition that if we will persist in sticking Kijów into [[Kiev]], then in retaliation someone will try to stick &#1042;&#1072;&#1088;&#1096;&#1072;&#1074;&#1072; into [[Warsaw]]. And it will be difficult to argue with this. If ruling Kijów for 100 years gives a right to include the Polish name, then according to the same logic the same right applies to the Russians, especially since their rule in Warsaw ended less than 100 years ago. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 05:41, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

::Co do Warszawy, niema tam ani niemieckiej nazwy ani rosyjskiej - "za to" co owe nacje wyczynily dla tego miasta. Co do Kijowa - nalezal do korony, wczesniej do Litwy, ktora rzadzil krol Polski (wiec miasto bylo dluzej pod wladaniem polskim jak Wroclaw niemieckim). Tu chodzi jednak o cos innego - zobacz ze niemieckie nazwy sa praktycznie w kazdym artykule miasta, ktore nalezalo (w jakims tam czasie) do Niemiec. Dlaczego niemiecka nazwa jest na tyle wazna by wstawic ja w artykule [[Rumia]] na pierwszy plan, chodz byla to zabita dechami wioska (gdy nalezala do Niemiec) - a Kijow ktore bylo waznym osrodkiem, ma nie miec polskiej nazwy? Wcale mi tam wielce nie zalezy by polska nazwa miasta byla wymieniona w pierwszej linijce artykulu, ale tylko wtedy gdy rownoczesnie niemieckie nazwy nie beda wymienione na pierwszym planie, w artykulach o miastach w Polsce. (z jednej strony polskie nazwy sa kasowane, a z drugiej obce nazwy dodawane praktycznie wszedzie - juz nie bede wspominal o artykulach o dzisiejszych dzielnicach Szczecina...) I w tym caly sek.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 08:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::''English translation: That for warsaw, there mute neither german names neither russian for it for this city - " " that that nation wyczynily. That for kiev for crown - nalezal, for lithuania wczesniej, rally under city polish < poland > ( polish ktora rzadzil krol bylo dluzej wladaniem as german ) Wroclaw. However, it walks about here other cos it see german names from (with) in (to) company ltd. practically - article city kazdym, there in (to) for germany time ( ) ktore nalezalo jakims. Why I am on in article on foreground german name so many (so much) < rear > [ [ ] ] wazna wstawic Rumia, it killed village ( chodz byla dechami when for germany ) nalezala - but Kijow ktore bylo waznym osrodkiem, has not polish miec? There name of city in first line absolutely greatly me not polish < poland > mentioned zalezy byla artykulu, but then when on foreground german name not mentioned rownoczesnie beda, in (to) about cities in poland artykulach. Polish names from one part company ltd. erase (, but foreign names added practically from second (other) wszedzie about about today's districts - not juz bede wspominal artykulach Szczecina. ) And in (to) it .sec caly --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 08:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

:::Rozumiem o co ci chodzi i dlatego zapraszam do dyskusji pod [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Vote on city naming]]. Jedynym wyj&#347;ciem z tych wojen edytorskich jest stworzenie jakiego&#347; standardu dla wszystkich miast europejskich, w miar&#281; neutralnego i do zaakceptowania dla wszystkich. Na razie tylko dyskutujemy, ale mo&#380;e wyjdzie z tego jakie&#347; g&#322;osowanie. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 08:36, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::''English translation: I know what you mean and so I invite for discussion under [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Vote naming]]. Creation of some reasonably neutral standard acceptable for all is the only way to avoid these edit wars over all European cities. For now we are only discussing, but maybe some vote will emerge from it. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 08:36, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

::::Popieram Balcera. Te dziecinne sprzeczki o nazwy s&#261; po prostu &#380;a&#322;osne. Napiszcie jakies artyku&#322;y zamiast marnowa&#263; czas na te rewerty. Niech Niemcy, Ruskie i inne ciemnoty maja frajde z nazw, a my miejmy frajde z najlepszych artyku&#322;ów. Zamiast k&#322;óci&#263; si&#281; o Mi&#324;sk na tej &#380;a&#322;osnej stronie (przeciez to prawie stub), doprowadzcie Warszawe czy Kraków do poziomu FA. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 10:21, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::''English translation: I support Balcer. These childish squabbles over names are simply pathetic. Instead of wasting time on these reverts, write some articles. Let Germans, Russians and others have satisifaction from names, but let us have satisfaction from excellent articles. Instead of brawling about Minsk (only a stub after all), improve [[Warsaw]] or [[Krakow]] articles to FA quality. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 10:21, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

::::No tak, standard jest konieczny. (tylko ze ta dyskusja jest jedynie na temat Polski i Litwy i nie rozwiaze rzadnego problemu, tak jak dyskusja gdanska) i rowniez jak juz wyzej pisalem (przydadek Gdanska) glosowanie niema sensu, bo tylko garstka ludzi glosujacych wie cos wogole o tematyce glosowania i nieliczni sa tym tematem zainteresowani - glusuja bo.. lubia lub po kolezensku... Nie wiem dlaczego nie jest stosowana najprostsza zasada "Gdy Gdansk byl polski, polska nazwa, gdy byl niemiecki, niemiecka nazwa". A co do nazw w pierwszej linijce - wszedzie bym przesunal do kategorii "City name" czy cos podobnego, i tam umiescil nazwy w roznych jezykach. Rowniez bym nie stosowal "cross-naming" bo to tylko oszpeca artykuly.
::::''English translation: But so, standard is indispensable. This discussion is from (with) about poland only ( only and lithuania and not problem rozwiaze rzadnego, discussion so as ) gdanska and rowniez as ( ) mute meaning juz wyzej pisalem przydadek Gdanska glosowanie, because handful of people knows about topic only glosujacych cos wogole glosowania and not numerous company ltd. this theme interested (concerned) - glusuja because. lubia Or for (after) kolezensku. Why I do not know simplest principle not be applicable < apply (use) > " when polish < poland > Gdansk byl, name polish < poland >, when german byl, german name ". But that for names in first line for category - " city " wszedzie przesunal name if (or) similar cos, and there in (to) name umiescil roznych jezykach. Not " " Rowniez stosowal cross-naming because it only oszpeca artykuly.''

::::Ewentualnym rozwiazaniem, by bylo uzywanie na stronach miast wylacznie obecnych nazw - a w artykulach dotyczacych np jakiegos tam Guntera ktory urodzil sie w Gdansku podczas gdy byl niemiecki, niemiecka nazwa. Podobnie Polaka ktory urodzil sie np w Wilnie. Co do ziem Rzplitej pod zaborami mozna by bylo sie dogadac, ze nazwy beda uzywane zawsze w kontekscie do danej osoby. Wiec jesli jakis Litwin urodzil sie w Wilnie w owym czasie, uzywamy litewskiej nazwy, jesli Polak polskiej, jesli Rosjanin rosyjska forme nazwy miasta. --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 10:25, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::''English translation: A possible solution would be using only current names in articles about cities - in articles concerning for example Gunther (Grass) who was born in Gdansk when it was German, the German name can be used. Similarly for a Pole born in Wilno, for example. As to the lands of the (Polish-Lithuanian) Commonwealth during the partitions, we could compromise that the names will be used always in the context of the person discussed. So if some Lithuanian was born in Vilnius at this time, we use the Lithuanian name, if a Pole, the Polish name, if a Russian, the Russian name. [[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 10:25, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

::Generalnie rzecz bior&#261;c masz racj&#281;, ale tu docieramy do k&#322;opotu z narodowo&#347;ci&#261;. I nie mówi&#281; tu tylko o Jagielle czy Domeyce, ale w ogóle o wszystkich osobisto&#347;ciach Rzeczypospolitey. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 12:54, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
::''English translation: In general you are right, but here we reach the main problem with nationality. And I am not talking here only only Jagiello or [[Domeyko]], but in general about all persons of the Commonwealth. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 12:54, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)''
:::No tak, jeden problem rozwiazany kolejny sie wylania :) Co do uzywania roznych nazw w kontekscie do danej osoby, mowie tu o latach po rozbiorach. Poza kilkoma przypadkami klotni o narodowosc, jak narazie byl w porownaniu do wojen na artykulach miast relatywny spokoj. --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 13:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::''English translation: Oh yes, if one problem is solved, the next one appears :). As to using various names in the context of the given person, I am talking here about the years after the Partitions. Except for a few examples of disagreements about nationality, so far the issue has been quiet, at least in comparison with revert wars about city names. --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 13:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

::::Czas przesz&#322;y uzasadniony. Jak tylko po&#322;&#261;czymy obie kwestie zaraz si&#281; zacznie. Narodowo&#347;&#263; niestety jest na tyle p&#322;ynn&#261; spraw&#261;, &#380;e trzeba jednak wybra&#263; jakie&#347; ja&#347;niejsze kryteria. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 15:13, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
::::''English translation: Time past < proceed > reasonable < substantiate >. As both (both of) only joint problem right now < pestilence > begin. Unfortunately, nationality is liquid case on so many (so much) < rear >, that however, it is necessary to choose some (certain) brightest (plainest) criteria. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 15:13, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)''

:::::Masz racje - trudno znalesc zloty srodek.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 22:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::::''English translation: You are right - it is hard to find the golden mean. --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 22:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

I would like to know the details of the above discussion, because I believe it is about a topic in which I take interest, and I would like to know what people are saying. I have translated what is here using the machine translator at poltran.com, but the results are not intelligible. I humbly request that someone who understands what was said here to please clean up these translations enough that one can understand the details of the conversation. Thanks. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 07:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Check the recent history of those articles - as you can see, I expanded the history section in their leads. Now they are better and, accidentaly, mention Kijów and Mi&#324;sk in the RELEVANT historical contexts. It appears that revert wars have ended. It may be prudent you apply this same tactic to other disputed articles - instead of waging revert wars, just expand the relevant part to prove your point. Isn't it better? --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 11:44, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====And a word on [[Kijów Voivodship]]====
:Hi, I just want to add to the above and say one more time, that despite I "participated" in Kiev revert war (though not just reverting, but trying to patiently explain in talk), I fully agree with Polish names for Kiev in relevant context. Recentrly someone replaced Kijów by Kiev in the [[Kijów Voivodship]] article and it became '''Kiev Voivodship''' instead of original '''Kijów Voivodship'''. I returned Kijów there so the article starts not with "'''Kijów''' ''(Kiev)'' '''Voivodship''' was an...". I don't insist on Kiev being a very second word in an article, but I think the conventional name of the city has to be displayed prominently, again not because it is Russian but because it is a conventional English name. If anyone would like to remove ''Kiev'' from the intro sentence, it's OK with me as long as it is still mentioned prominently. Peace! --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 16:51, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

===Propozycja===

Na stronie [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Vote on city naming]] zacz&#281;&#322;o si&#281; od dyskysji o Polsce i Litwie, ale teraz dyskutowane s&#261; te&#380; propozycje o stworzeniu jakiego&#347; ogólnego standartu. Mo&#380;e wklej&#281; tutaj moj&#261; propozycj&#281; rozwi&#261;zania problemu. Wszelkie komentarze mile widziane. Oczywi&#347;cie wszystkie liczby to tylko moja pierwsza propozycja.

As many of current revert wars are fought over such small details as where a particular name is placed, we need to make very specific rules to put a stop to them. The first paragraph of the article is often especially problematic, so let's make specific rules describing where we put names other than the current name in the first paragraph.

*1. '''First sentence of the article''' If a name other then the present one is placed here, it must fulfill stringent criteria, most important being widespread use in the English language in the present day. To make things more quantitative, use in more than 10% of English language webpages containing the name of the given city, as shown by Google (and minimum 1000 webpage hits), should qualify the name to be placed here.

:Note the obvious special case: if the city has its own proper name in English (as evidenced by overwhelming number of Google hits), then the name in the language of the country it is in of course prominently given independent of Google numbers, ex. Copenhagen (København),Warsaw (Warszawa),Rome (Roma) etc.

:Note:If the city is large enough to warrant an entry in a major English language encyclopedia (Britannica, Columbia etc.) and if that entry mentions names in other languages in its first line, then those names can also be included in the first line of Wikipedia article about the city.

*2. '''Sentence somewhere in the first paragraph''' - something like: "historically, the city has also been known as", "the city is also sometimes referred to as" etc. For a name to be included here, it must have belonged to a state using the language being cited, in a legitimate way, for at least half a century (so that military occupations don't count etc.). If it did not belong to that state, it can still be included, with appropriate explanation, if current usage threshold passes, say, 3% of webpages on Google (and minimum 500 webpage hits).

:Note: in especially complicated cases ([[Gdansk]] etc.) a special section on Names might be added at the bottom of the header.

*2.1 '''Another sentence somewhere in the first paragraph''' - if a name does not fall into above two criteria, and yet the city had/has a significant (over 10%) national minority using that name, one may include a sentence: "Historically, the city had a ______ minority which called the city ________ (language)" or "Currently, the city has a _______ minority which calls the city _______ (language). In case of controversy a reliable source should be provided to justify the claim.

*3. '''Link to [[List of European cities with alternative names]]''' - the name in any other language which does not fit above criteria can be put there.

*4. '''Body of the article - History section''' - Any name which for some reason did not fit into criteria 1 and 2 can be mentioned in the body of the article, with an explanation of why it is being included.

*Note: If it is shown that the Google results have been in any way manipulated specifically to make a name fit rule 1 or 2, that name will be removed.

Specify which version of google -> google.com as opposed to its regional editions. --[[User:Ttyre|Ttyre]] 18:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:The most mainstream version of Google, so google.com. I am not an expert on Google so I hope the criteria I proposed are reasonable and not easy to subvert. Someone correct me if I am wrong. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 18:58, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:I wouldn't worry about this ''Note:If the city is large enough to warrant an entry in a major English language encyclopedia''. There are articles about small villages in UK, US, Canada, etc.- I don't see why Poland or other non-[[Anglosphere]] countries should be held to a different standard. If such a standard is necessary I would say a Polish encyclopedia would be better than an English one. The common denominator in the English wikipedia should be the English language, not an Anglo-Amero POV. -[[User:JCarriker|JCarriker]] 13:16, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

== Improved 'to do' ==
Well, seeing as this place is - contrary to my early gloomy predictions - quite lively, I have decided to improve our 'to do' list (on the top of main page). I hope it is more useful now. Feel free (or compelled) to expand it. Also, note that we have quite a few articles which with little effort can be taken to the FA status (trust me, as a person with 10 FA under his belt, I can judge the article's quality :>). If any of you would like to work together with me and bring them up to FA quick, let me know. Otherwise, I'll do it myself, but it will take longer :) --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 19:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
: Update: [[Wikipedia:Peer_review/Virtuti_Militari]]. Please help me add references to this article! We can FAC it afterwards. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 20:14, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Ladnie rozbudowales liste. Chcialbym ponownie prosic wszystkie Panie i Panow na [[Wikipedia:Polish Wikipedians' notice board/PLCOTW|Polish Collaboration of the Week]] i o oddanie glosu, lub dodanie wlasnej propozycji do listy. Jezeli nie macie nic przeciwko, to w poniedzialek ustanowimy w imie kolektywu.. naszego kandydata.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 02:11, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:...rowniez zapraszam do wpisywania ciekawostek o Polsce [[Wikiportal:Poland/Did you know|tutaj]]...--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 13:57, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Moze zainteresuje kogos te glosowanie: [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Polish Wikipedians' notice board/Black Book|dzienniczek uwag]], oddanie glosu z tendencja negatywna wobec propozycji kasowania tej strony, mile widziane :)--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 10:59, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:'''Polish Collaboration of the week''': '''[[Wawel]]'''

==[[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pope John Paul II]]==
ATM I have to object, but as I wrote, it can be made a FA with some effort. May I suggest some of you drop the city names issue and instead help adress the objections to this article? I am sure our dear papie&#380; would approve. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 21:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

=="English translations"==
The "English translations" appearing on this page, in response to a request, are without doubt the most abysmal that I have ever seen. Were they produced by a computer program? ''If'' English translations are called for in such a ''semi-private'' context (I have my doubts), then why not instead provide competent, concise ''English summaries''? The current ungrammatical, unidiomatic '''Poglish''' hodge-podge is completely pointless, except perhaps as satire. [[User:Logologist|logologist]] 10:20, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:This is not a semi-private area, this is a public space on the English wikipedia. English should be the primary language used. I have been assured that English will be used more and that translations will follow. I will be watching for them. As for Nohat's post of poltran.com's translations, its well intetioned but not particularly useful. -[[User:JCarriker|JCarriker]] 11:26, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
::Indeed they're terrible. That's why I requested at the bottom of the discussion that they be cleaned. I honestly would like to know what the discussion is about, and the MT has provided only a fleeting glimpse. I implore anyone who speaks Polish to please clean them up and make them at the very least intelligible if not grammatically perfect. The poltran translations are intended to be a spur to overcome the inertia of the trying to translate an entire discussion. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 16:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nohat, if you will look again at the discussion, you will find that some parts of this translation are already improved. Generally this discussion leads to working out common rules, which might be applied to similar cases in future. Proposition of the rules is below this discussion in a thread titled '''Propozycja'''. Please, feel free to share your opinion about the rules with us. --[[User:SylwiaS|SylwiaS]] 16:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Thank you for your assistance. Witkacy in particular seems to not use any diacritics in his Polish, which the translator appears to choke on. Even if you can't/don't want to provide complete translations of the comments, it would be very helpful if the untranslated Polish words could be replaced with approximate English translations. Thanks! [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 19:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Once again I ask all users of this page to use English. We are on English Wiki BY CHOICE, so let's abide by the standards here, ok guys? Instead of viewing non-Polish users as annoyance, I think it is much better to think of them as friends, who are likely to help us here and elsewhere. Positive thinking, people, is the key :) --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 23:26, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==Slubowanie==
[[Image:Sluby Jana Kazimierza.jpg|100px|left]]
Ten obraz przedstawia koronacje czy jakies "inne slubowanie"? --[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 14:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:''Is this paintin shows coronation or some opther "oath"

Jest to powierz;enie Rzeczposolitej i jej narodów w opiek&#281; Matki Boskiej (og&#322;oszenie jej Królow&#261; Polski) w obliczu Potopu [[User:Radomil|Radomil]] <small>[[User talk:Radomil|talk]]</small> 15:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:''It is enthrusting Mother of God with [[Rzeczpospolita]] and its nations (proclamation Her as Queen of Poland) during [[the Deluge]]''

:Dzieki.--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 22:52, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::''Thank's''

==Czy rzeczywi&#347;cie==
za&#322;o&#380;enia tej encyklopedii stanowczo zabraniaj&#261; u&#380;ywania innego j&#281;zyka oprócz angielskiego? Zdaje si&#281;, &#380;e jej centrala znajduje si&#281; w Stanach Zjednoczonych, gdzie kilkana&#347;cie lat temu s&#261;d orzek&#322;, &#380;e nie wolno zabrania&#263; pracownikom u McDonalda mówienia po hiszpa&#324;sku tylko dlatego, &#380;e prze&#322;o&#380;eni i konsumenci ciekawi s&#261;, co pracownicy prywatnie mówi&#261; mi&#281;dzy sob&#261;. [[User:Logologist|logologist]] 06:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

''Translation: Do the assumptions of this encylopedia firmly forbid the use of any other language except English? It seems to me that its headquarters is located in the United States, where a dozen years ago a court ruled that it is not legal to prevent the workers of MacDonalds from speaking among themselves in Spanish only because their superiors and customers are curious what the workers are saying privately among themselves. ''[[User:Logologist|logologist]] 06:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: No rule, just convinience. When in Rome... See my post above. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 00:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is a voluntary project, not a company, so the above situation does not apply here. And this is an ''English'' speaking project. If you don't want to speak English, simply join the [[:pl:Strona g&#322;ówna|Polish Wikipedia]]. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 15:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We speak English in the articles, but this is POLISH WIKIPEDIANS' NOTICE BOARD (duh!). Nothing interesting for non-Poles. [[User:Space Cadet|Space Cadet]] 15:55, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Denmark, Russia, Quebec all have boards. All in English. Wikipedia does not exclude people who are interested in topics because of nationality. To do so would be discrimination. Surely you are not suggesting that?-[[User:JCarriker|JCarriker]] 16:12, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
::Well, mentioning that other boards are in English is an ''[[argumentum ad populum]]'' fallacy. Please show a rule that there should be no articles in languages other than English on en.wikipedia.org. And nobody is excluding any nationality here. If someone is interested in Polish topics, he should learn Polish... --[[User:Akumiszcza|Akumiszcza]] 16:37, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:The simplest solution to this problem is to find some page on Wikipedia where using Polish does not disturb the peace and does not contravene the rules, and transfer discussions in Polish there. I am sure there must be dozens of possibilities here, using someone's talk page for example is the first thing that comes to mind. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::I don't think using a user talk page would go over well. Creating a Polish mailing list for the collaboration, or perhaps a sister board, Polish Collaboration on the English wikipedia on pl.wikipedia? -[[User:JCarriker|JCarriker]] 16:33, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

:I think it would be best if you let the non-Poles decide what is and isn't interesting to them instead of deciding for them by holding discussions in Polish and refusing to translate those discussions to English. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe I might have created (unwillingly) this issue when pointing out at several talk pages to this board messages as an indication that several recent [[Minsk]] and [[Kiev]] changes (as of now reverted) were just [[WP:Point]] edits. This might have caught attention of several users involved in those disputes to this board who got frustrated finding the discussion is in Polish. However, I think the demands are rather overblown. If Polish editors wanted to have these discussion secret, they could have easily accomplished it on or off WP. Possibilities are abundant. Personally, I don't assume they would do that because, few misunderstandings aside, those communicating on these board are valuable contributors and are unquestionably ethical and good-faith editors. Yes, sometimes people loose their temper, so what? It happens with all editors and many active editors of all ethnicities received 24-h bans which works well to cool off the temper. Besides, the POV differences very often happen between the Polish editors and Russian or Ukrainian or Belorussian or Lithuanian editors. If the Polish side would want to discuss how to "conspire" and develop team plans on pushing certain views into the articles in questions, discussing them in such an open project, even EXCLUSIVELY in Polish, would not allow any "secrecy" because the editors from the above nations would be able to understand written Polish or at least get a general idea of what's going on.

So it seems obvious to me that Polish is used just out of convenience rather than to hide something. I think this is rather overblown. True, on other boards and projects editors communicate in English. Russian, Ukrainian boards and portals are exclusively in English. Personally, I would use English. But I don't think the hype about this issue is justified. -[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 19:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Irpen, thank you for understanding. You are right, Polish was used just out of convenience. In fact just a week ago all talks here were in Polish. Since JCarriker asked us to use English, there is more English messages here now. But we didn't see it necessary to translate all what was said before, as many topics here are old now and not discussed anymore. However, as soon as Nohat told us that he was interested in the Minsk/Kiev discussion, authors of their posts started to translate them. It takes a while, I know, but almost everything there is translated now. There was really no bad will intended in using Polish. Also no one said that he would not translate. I understand that the “cities name” problem is live and I’m glad that Nohat and others are interested in looking for common solution. Regards --[[User:SylwiaS|SylwiaS]] 21:30, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're right the issue is over hyped. I origninally brought up the subject, when I noticed User names in the text other than the posters. That problem was not simply a linguistics problem and has since been corrected. Balcer has dilegenlty given his time to translating, but I believe we can only ask so much. The importance lies in encouraging English to be used here, as SylwiaS and Piotrus and others are doing by using it on the page, and thus encouraging others to do so as well. Dispite a few rude comments this discussion has been quite civil and productive on both sides. -[[User:JCarriker|JCarriker]] 21:44, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

:As I wrote to Nohat in his talk page, this board is definitely more open than, lets say, the mailing lists. It is pretty clear that the mailing lists are not available to all the interested wikipedians, yet important decisions are taken there (that is outside of wikipedia). If people are allowed to discuss the wiki content outside of the... well... wiki content, then I see no problem with such discussions here in Wiki space being in Polish. After all at any time any user can request a translation or join in (which is not the case with mailing lists). [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 02:05, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
::Collaborations are open associatons for anyone who are interested in a topic, to use Polish exclusivley is to exclude people. I think it is unfortunate your OK with that. Poles have few friends on wikipedia, out side of your fatherland, friends it is necessary to have if your going to achieve your goals. You just lost one of your best. I'll be removing all Polish related topics from my watchlist, including [[Vilnius]]. I'm afraid you will find other wikipedians won't go so quitely. Good luck. -[[User:JCarriker|JCarriker]] 10:03, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
:::I support JC on this, as I wrote above. By using Polish we intentionally wall ourselves in our own little Polish-speaking ghetto. I, for one, am not interested in this - if I wanted to speak Polish, I'd be on Polish wiki, not here. I hope JC changes his mind, and I apologise to him and all of our English-speaking friends for the trouble. Please don't let this tiny problem, now mostly resolved, make you loose faith in us. The entire Polish-language-on-this-board issue is, for me, a technical matter, which has been mostly resolved now. Let the tempers cool and resume the constructive work, ok guys? --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 10:51, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Wycieczka? ==
I was thinking lately about organising some kind of meeting of those of us (i.e. en-wiki editors) in Poland. As just 'a meeting' seems rather tiring (and besides there is the [[:pl:Wikipedia:Zlot_Wikimedian_z_Europy_%C5%9Arodkowej_i_Wschodniej]]), what do you think about some kind of a few-days trip? For example, to Wilno or Lwów or some other interesting place I bet most of us haven't been to (although some are fighting a wars in wikispace for it :D)? Or a 2-days trek in Polish mountains? Time - somewhere in July (I am definetly going to miss the offical meeting in August, as I won't be in Poland from 11th August till December). Anybody interested? --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 00:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


:Seems interesting. Count me in (at least provisionally) [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 02:02, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

:Sounds great. [[User:Azalero|Azalero]] 20:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Prawdopododobnie ca&#322;e to spotkanie w Krakowie zdominuje sprawa ostatniego protesu i proponowanych zmian. Poza ty jeden ze zbanowanych wikipedystów (Kwiecie&#324;) zacz&#261;&#322; ju&#380; chyba nagonk&#281; w prasie na temat cenzury, nierówno&#347;ci i przekraczania uprawnie&#324; przez adminów - wi&#281;c mo&#380;e by&#263; gor&#261;co....(tego spotkania raczej nie polecam osobom o s&#322;abych nerwach, ale nieoficjalne inicjatywy to co innego...:)). [[User:Vuvar1|Vuvar1]] 14:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::I am rarely fequenting Polish wiki, and their talk pages ever rarer - could you tell us more about this Kwiece&#324; and other problems on pl wiki? --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 15:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::: sorki,&#380;e po polsku: Po pierwsze nie b&#281;de obiektywny, bo sam zaprzesta&#322;em kilka dni temu dzia&#322;alno&#347;ci na pl: Wiki. Sprawa ma si&#281; tak- od kwietnia zacz&#261;&#322; tam dzia&#322;a&#263; go&#347;ciu o tym&#380;e niku. Strasznie by&#322; on kontrowersyjny i nie stroni&#322; od ostrego j&#281;zyka, ale wk&#322;ad mia&#322; ogromny jak na tak krótki czas. Admini zaczeli go banowa&#263;, a temu w to graj... Ma dynamiczne IP i mog&#261; mu "nask..." jak to mówi&#322;. Obie strony nie przebiera&#322;y w wulgaryzmach szczególnie na liscie dyskusyjnej. Go&#347;ciu ma obecnie kilkadziesi&#261;t kont- zarówno wandalizuj&#261;cych (ataki na Tawa i Beno), jak i normalnych. Sytuacja si&#281; zaogni&#322;a jak dosta&#322; bez podania powodu (troche w tym racji jest) bana na 14 dni od Tawa. On sta&#322; sie terroryst&#261; ,a Admini zacz&#281;li te&#380; na niego polowanie i no i nowym si&#281; czasem (rzadko, bo rzadko) dostaje przez pomy&#322;k&#281;. 11 osób rozpocz&#281;&#322;o protest, a to zosta&#322;o &#347;rednio przyj&#281;te przez zpo&#322;eczno&#347;&#263;. Ja ju&#380; nie zmog&#322;em. Oficjalna strona protestu zosta&#322;a przeniesiona [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Alx-pl/Protest tu].Go&#347;ciu ma te&#380; w&#322;asnego bloga gdzie zje&#380;dza równo i przesadnie pl:Wiki. Podkre&#347;lam- nie jestem obiektywny! [[User:Vuvar1|Vuvar1]] 15:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::And other POV: His contributoion was not so big. Most of his editons were in discusinons, containing mostly personal atacks, edit wars and so on. Group of Wikipedians want's to negotiate with this person, asking rest of them (or rather "us") to wait, and tolerate him for... few months. Actions of Kwiecie&#324; and his sock-puppets were such big problem, that many Wikipedists stop (or at least minimalise contributions) participating in project. This situation forced some administrators to defend wikipedia and ban all old and new sock-puppets of Kwiecie&#324;. After this small grup of contriutors that wanted to find "compromise" with troll started protest in defending of "freedom of word" (It is other POV which mayby helps You to find Yours POV or NPOV as You wish :) ) [[User:Radomil|Radomil]] <small>[[User talk:Radomil|talk]]</small> 19:35, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Consequence of Gdansk/Vote ==
See [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Fixing_giant_loopholes_in_Wikipedia:Survey_guidelines]] if you are interested in making sure that the Gdansk/Vote is fixed and new similar votes won't be disputable. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 19:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Proposed title change ==

Please take a look at the proposed title change for [[Talk%3ACamps_in_Poland_during_World_War_II|Camps in Poland during
WWII]] article. --[[User:Ttyre|Ttyre]] 20:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the best title is [Nazi Camps in Occupied Poland during WWII] - maybe it's too long, but it explains and embraces everything. [[User:Vuvar1|Vuvar1]] 14:52, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Dukes ==

I'm sorry that I put so many dukes into "to create/translate section", but I think this period of Polish history need to be realy developed (and we have quite good sources from pl: Wiki). [[User:Vuvar1|Vuvar1]] 16:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== 25 years after 1980 ==

The 25th anniversary of the 1980 strikes which led to the creation of [[Solidarity]] is approaching. It would be a great moment to make [[Solidarity]] (or some other related article) into a Featured Article. We have about 2 months before the date, which should be plenty of time. Anybody else thinks this is a good idea? [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 02:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: I second. Let's put it as PCTW first, the article is short. Still, looking at NO activity with [[Wawel]], I am afraid there is going to be little collaboration. I wish people would stop playing those silly Polish city name/nationality wars and instead put those time into helping us with this article... --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 16:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==Narodowosc==
[[User:Rydel|Rydel]] z [[User:Czalex|Czalexem]] po cichu dodaja w kolejnych artykulach "bialoruski watek".

* [[Ignacy Hryniewiecki]] ktory krecil sie w polskich kolkach rewolucyjnych. Encyklopedia PWN mowi wyraznie "..car zginal 1881 na ulicy od bomby rzuconej przez Polaka (I. Hryniewieckiego);.."
* [[Jan Karol Chodkiewicz]] ktorego rodzina prawdopodobnie pochodzila z Kijowa. Co wystarcza by dodac go do kategorii "szlachta bialoruska"... Nie mialbym nic przeciwko gdyby dodali go do kategorii "litewska", ale "bialoruska" to absurd.
--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 22:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[[User:Rydel|Rydel]] zaczal rowniez wywalac polskie nazwy miast na: [[Orsza]], [[Turaw]], [[Mahilyow]], [[Vitsebsk]] i u [[Kazimir Malevich]]--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 01:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: It was all discussed on [[Talk:Ignacy Domeyko]]. I reverted one of his changes, since he deletes a useful disambig (Persia to Persian Empire in Chodkiewicz), but as usuall, I am not going to waste my time on those revert wars. However, I would like to raise one question: did Bielorusian nationality exist in 17th century, or was it simply part of a Ruthenian one that developed individuality in 19th century? --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 08:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


== Whose painting is this? ==

*# [[:Image:Jozef Poniatowski na koniu.jpg]] [[Image:Jozef_Poniatowski_na_koniu.jpg|thumb|left|30px|Józef Poniatowski]]
:Juliusza Kossaka--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 16:27, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*# [[:Image:Henryk Dabrowski.jpg]] [[Image:Henryk Dabrowski.jpg|thumb|left|30px|Henryk Dabrowski]]
:Januarego Suchodolskiego--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 16:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*# [[:Image:Henryk Dabrowski 2.jpg]] [[Image:Henryk Dabrowski 2.jpg|thumb|left|30px|Henryk Dabrowski]]
:Juliusza Kossaka--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 16:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Emax uploaded it without a source, name or author info. One of Kossaks, perhaps? The third is Witkacy's upload. More to come. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 16:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Close to FAC ==
[[Virtuti Militari]] and [[History of Poland (1945-1989)]]. Virtuti needs references, so I ask all of you who have contributed to it (Halibutt, especially) to provide them. I will nominate them to FAC soon, so if you want to make any final adjustments before the review process begins (PR was just archived), do so now, so voting is faster and supports more common. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 17:48, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:47, 1 June 2005

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