Talk:Communism/Archive 8: Difference between revisions

Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7

Censorship?

Again, 172, does this censorship and removal of information continue to demonstrate that one side prefers that certain information not allowed to be viewed?

(Gibby 20:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

No one is interested in 'censoring' your information on China's economic policies. However, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which means that it is supposed to follow certain standards of relevance for including information in any given article. The information that you are interested in adding here is off-topic in the communism article, and more appropriate in articles related to economy of the People's Republic of China and Communist Party of China. Please take your comments to other articles where your concerns are more relevant. 172 20:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

172, I think it was rude of you to archive a discussion page during an on-going discussion. The edit comment reads "perhaps archiving all the off-topic soapboxing will make it go away?". Please do not do this again. The discussion page is for discussion. Please respect that. (BostonMA 22:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

they are perfectly relevant here. You have failed to demonstrate why they are not. (Gibby 20:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

This is an article on the ideology and political movement called communism, which is most notable as the purported ideology of Communist parties. The communism article is the most broad and general of literally thousdands of articles on Wikipedia related to (a) communist ideology (b) Communist parties (c) Communist regimes (d) discourses related to modern communist ideology. There must be clear criteria for determining what kind of information is relevant here and what kind of information is more fitting in a more specialized entry, or else this article will loose its focus and fail to serve as a helpful general entry to readers who are interested in learning only the general matters of 'who, what, when, where, why' of the subject.

On that note, your commentary on the ideology of a particular Communist party-- asserting that the practices of CPC are "contrary to original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao" may be correct; but it is POV and off-topic here. Given the NPOV policy, it is not Wikipedia's position to evaulate the ideologies of individual political parties. Again, I urge you to take your observations to articles specifically focused on the Chinese economy and the CPC, where references with citations to commentaries dealing with the divergence of CPC ideology and practice from "original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao" may actually be pertinent to the subject. 172 23:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

An article on the ideology of communism? Well if you allow small scale private farms, private buisness, and a money system you arent exactly following what communism was supposed to be about are you? What we have is communist branches of ideologies that are evolved from the original thing. Much in the same way market reform is taking root in present day "communist" countries. Each "ideology" attempted to mask their reforms as still being communist and with each one they moved further and further away from communisms theoretical basics. Seriously you have no point.

If you think you have a point, why not reduce the Lenninism, Stalinism, Maoism sections to links toward their respective pages, eliminate all refrences to the Soviet Union and just talk about the theory and maybe local communes in America or ISreal or something, because those are the closet thing to actual communism that has ever existed....again you have no point.

(Gibby)

Sigh. Of course the experiences of Communist party rule played a key role in the development of Trotskyism, Stalinism, Titoism, Maoism, Hoxhaism, etc. as separate braches of communism. We both know this. The communism entry is only supposed to offer a very cursory overview just laying out generalities concerning all the various different forms of "communism." Please go to the more specialized entries, which themselves do not go into as much detail on PRC economic reforms as you want the communism article to go into. 172 00:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

(Someone)

I think that it should be mentioned and linked. But not the full article in the Communism page. I think it should be an article of it's own.

Communists in power and the free market

Discussion on whether or not this section should be included...

Contrary to original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, the People's Republic of China; the largest country whose ruling party refers to itself as communist, runs Special Economic Zones dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under Deng Xiaoping, the People's Republic of China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including Hong Kong, which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy [1].

These Special Economic Zones have few restrictions upon businesses, industries, imports and exports, including the elimination of duties, and a free price system. Since the opening of the Free Trade Zones China has maintained a growth rate of over 8%, and originally saw growth rates around 12%. These Special Economic Zones are different than the State Capitalism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, because the SEZs allow for capitalists to build and expand their industries and private property, free from the control of the central government. SEZ's operate under market economy rather than the state capitalist top down command economy approach.

According to China.org "After opening Shenzhen and other three coastal cities in South China as special economic regions and then dozens of economic and technological development zones in the 1980s, the country introduced free trade zones in the early 1990s in 15 coast cities, including Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin." [2] It might be interesting to broaden this section with examples in North Korea and Vietnam. Electionworld 09:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree that it is different from state capitalism. China remains state capitalist, due to political suppression of dissidents. That remains a critical distinction in any "free market" economy whatsoever. Furthermore, yes, China is a major example of a communist country espousing free market ideals, but the current article is already cluttered enough. I could see a paragraph of this being sufficient, fitting under the "Communism today" section, to elaborate on already existing material. The concept of China having a free market is not restricted to China, many so called communist countries already have market economies. Therefore, it should be oriented less on the PRC on more about free markets in communist countries in general, the full explanation being at state capitalism, citing the PRC as an example. -- Natalinasmpf 09:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +

I aggree, China is not the only self described communist country that is implementing market reforms, attracting foriegn investment, lower import restrictions, and encouraging foriegn development. And because multiple modern communist countries are implementing these reforms, it should be included...afterall we've already shown the evolution to lenninism, stalinism, maosim...why not this "reformism"

And yes, Nati, china's SEZs are far different than State Capitlism. China runs 2 separate economies. 1 command economy 1 market economy (in the SEZs)...market economies are NOT state capitalism as none of the supply, demand, or price information is directed by the central government. (Gibby) Because that is not an ideology, and is covered in both state capitalism and communist state. It remains state capitalism because the government still economically represses its society directly (as opposed to insidiously with plutocracy). Ultimately, it still remains state capitalism because the internal flow within the country has not been lifted, and thus remains state capitalist. -- Natalinasmpf 19:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +

Well opponents of free markets label them an ideology and now its mixed with communists...sounds like it clears to me. +

Is it me or are the excuses for excluding this section constantly changing? (Gibby 20:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)) +

No, they are not. The reasons for excluding the section are that it is off-topic, irrelevant, POV original research. Please give it a rest. Information on the economy of China can be found in economy of the People's Republic of China. Information on the CPC can be found in Communist Party of China. Please give it up here. 172 20:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +

It is not POV, POV has been removed.

It is not Original Research. All the data is taken from respectable published sources (REad the freaking rulebook) +

It is not off topic it follows in line with the spirit of the page which is demonstrating how communist theory and ideology has changed over time

And the simple fact that this information is briefly covered does not adequatly explain why this should not be included as several sections in this page are not only included in other pages but have their own pages as well. +

Your refusal to allow this section is simple censorship. You dont want information counter to your own beliefs to be entered into this page for fear of people learning to disagree with your position. You are an intellectual coward who cannot fight facts on its own merits and has to hide behind perverting wiki rules to see intellectual competition removed +

(Gibby 20:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

You cannot be serious. I have no passionate opinions about this subject matter whatsoever. I could personally care less about the content of your section; and I don't think that any other editor has a strong ideological view on this topic, for that matter. However, I do have a strong opinion on the need to keep information in the communism article relevant to the topic, because I care about helping Wikipeidia develop along the lines of its goals. Please try to be civil-- and take your concerns to articles where they are not tangential-- such as economy of the People's Republic of China and Communist Party of China. 172 21:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

172, while I think that Gibby is being uncivil, he has a point. Why exactly is this section not relevant? --Pianohacker 22:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

See my comments above. 172 23:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

We were doing fine without it a month ago, and I have explained (in archive 7) that it's redundant. Consider this, suppose I post in the United States article, an entire section about commenting about its welfare system and how it seems ironic if compared to the American dream, how it goes against the entire system of free enterprise, blah blah blah. Now, an entire section in a country article about its welfare system is already too much. A section for the entire purpose of making an observation of welfare when compared to other American concepts is even narrower....now, this is basically what the current section proposed to this article is. This article is a pretty general article, almost like a country-article, since it spans such a wide range of information. An entire section making this narrow observation (however accurate) would be disjunct and wouldn't flow, and then we would get laughs from critics and the Register if they ever decided to use this as an example against Wikipedia about the sheer pettiness and narrowness of our articles. Gibby: I think we will have less trouble, or even no trouble, if this is moved to "communist state" (and merged with existing material to cut redundancy), just see what the consensus is about that. Communist state is basically a child article about Communism, just as Maoism and Leninism is. -- Natalinasmpf 22:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Natalinasmpf, you raise the argument that Wikipedia would be a laughing stock. I note that philosophy of Wikipedia is to present NPOV, to be "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". In my opinion, an NPOV encyclopedia has the potential to be vastly superior to existing encyclopedias which are decidedly not NPOV. Should the Wikipedia community take the POV that NPOV should take second place to the avoidance of ridicule? (BostonMA 23:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

which is perhaps why Electionwood suggested the addition of information regarding North Korean and Vietnamese reforms in this section. That only makes it more relevant than it already is (and it is relevant thanks to inclusions of lenninism maoism..etc. I dont know how many times I have to keep repeating this, but its clear you dont get it). (Gibby 21:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

and don't lie about your passions, you've got on your interests the Soviet Union, Russia, and George Keenan...I think thats a pattern! (Gibby 21:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

What proof do you have of these interests, and then again, what exactly do you mean? --Pianohacker 23:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It is in his bio or whatever he calls it on his user page. (Gibby)

Gibby, I know a little about the subject, granted. I make a living from teaching-- perhaps the motive on my part for learning about the subject is rent seeking? I don't have an ideological axe to grind. If someone on Wikipedia is expressing the POV that the practice of the CPC is contrary to communist theory, I can care less. I have no idea how it affects me personally; I have no idea if it is a challenge to my political views. The substance of your arguments doesn't affect me in the slightest, personally or ideologically. I just want this particular article to stay on topic. That's it. I want to accomplish this aim with as little disruption as possible, consuming as little time as possible. I'm sorry if I'm turning out to be surprisingly dull and unsophisticated; but you will have to deal with many other editors like myself, who are less passionate about the subject matter than about striving to uphold Wikipedia's content policies. 172 23:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I dont have an axe to grind other than teaching a couple people (you and nati) lessons in logical consistancy and factual correctness. THe section I have added, is relevant, and is only irrelevant in the minds of the logically inconsistant. You cannot attack my section and expect the ones that remain to continue to exist without the same logic coming back and attacking it.

To date no good excuse has come up for this sections deletion becasue they cannot hold up to logical examination.

POV Original Research Not Relevant Not part of the ideology Not enough google hits talked about on other pages.

Of course it's related to the subject. The criterion for including information here, however, is not simply that the material pertains somehow to communism. If that were the case, this article would be thousands of pages long. Wikipedia must pay attention to the encyclopedic principle of hierarchy if it is to be useable. Just take your observations to a more specialized article, then there will not be a problem. 172 00:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

market oriented reforms engaged by communist parties. Its very much apart of the page already. This is lenninsm. You allow it to remain.

Just cut the crap, allow it, and then actually make useful suggestions instead of being a PITA. (Gibby 08:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

The Poor Objections to the FMC section

---

• POV (There is no POV I've edited it relentlessly to remove any suspected POV, offer assitance if you can (editors with major complaints have failed to do so to date).
• Original Research (this section does not constitute original research. Everything is verifiable through respected sources...which are even cited. More can be given if needed! Likely these people have problems with the selected sources or the person who ORIGINALY typed the section)Editors have also failed to give examples as to how this is Original Research other than to throw out this complain. Words have meanings...and so do rules. You cant make up stuff as you go along!
• Covered elsewhere (so is lenninism, maoism, stalinism, the soviet union are not only mentioned elsewhere each their own pages. Market oriented reforms are barely mentioned, even when in its own page)
• SEZs are state capitalism thus already covered in the page (SEZs are not state capitalism. State capitalism is command economy, SEZs are market economies. They are too seperate things and the SEZs and market economies of some present day "communist" countries is not actually included in the article)
• Not relevant to communism (how is the fact that communist governments conducting market reform not relevant to communism as the ideology? Especially since the ideologies of communism included are ideological schools that have allowed monetary systems, private property, and a few other things that defy the basics of communism)
• not enough google hits (title Free Market Communism had 178 google hits, more than some of the other section titles in the page)

Gibby

---

If market-oriented reforms are barley mentioned "even in its own page" then start 'in its own page.' It makes no sense to have an article on the general offering more detail on the particular than is offered on the particular in the article on the particular. 172 02:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

and...what is your objection to having this page linked to a new page which covers the subject more in depth...once again, we have Lenninism and company linked with pages on lenninism...

Again, no point.

(Gibby)

Suspected Original Research, "The modern world's first effort to build socialism"

The current text reads:

"In Russia, the modern world's first effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale, following the 1917 October Revolution, led by Lenin's Bolsheviks, raised significant theoretical and practical debates on communism among Marxists themselves."

Statements which attribute actions to "the modern world" are suspect as original research. After 48 hours have elapsed, (and obviously after the article is unlocked), I will edit this sentence, unless someone provides a verifiable source for the sentence or makes a request for more time to locate such a verifiable source.

I will replace it with the following text, unless convinced that another text is superior.

"The Russian 1917 October Revolution was the first time any party with an avowedly Marxist orientation, the Bolshevik Party, obtained state power. The assumption of state power by the Bolsheviks generated by a great deal of practical and theoretical debate within the Marxist movement."

(BostonMA 22:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

This is just a matter of style, not original research or POV. Once the article. On that note, the style of the sentence should be modified, so as to avoid coming across as giving agency to non-human historical abstractions such as "the modern world." When the article is unprotected, I will change the prose in question to the following "... first effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale in modern history... " Still, there's no reason to make a little style error out to be a bigger deal than it really is. 172 23:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, as far as I am concerned, your version is still suspected original research, and I will expect you to provide some sort of verifiable source.

Also, I disagree that the issue is not one of POV. You take the POV that an attempt was made (by whom? Stalin?) to build socialism. My POV is that Stalin used the political slogan of "buiding socialism" to advance certain ends, but that he did not actually attempt to build socialism, but rather something repulsive to socialism. (BostonMA 00:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Fine. Then the sentence can get changed to "... first purported effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale in modern history... " Who is making the claim to be building socialism is obviously the Bolsheviks in this context. 172 00:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Then the date should be changed from the 1917 October Revolution to the 1924 rise of Stalin's power, unless your claim is that the Bolsheviks were purporting to build socialism prior to that date. If that is your claim, I again, would ask for verifiable sources.

Huh? Their goal was building socialism before Stalin's rise to power. 172 00:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Did the Bolhseviks have the goal of building socialism in Russia before Communist parties came to power in the West? I do not believe so. You may have a different opinion, and that would not be uncommon. However, commonly held views are often mistaken, (and in this case I think they are mistaken). That is why I ask for a verifiable source. (BostonMA 01:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

This point is kind of moot. Both Trotskyites and Stalinists wanted to see the revolution spread to the West, and they expected it to spread. The fact that it would not was revealed to them after the Bolshevik Revolution. Yes, they came to power in 1917 with the goal of building 'socialism' (whatever they claimed that meant to them). No one disputes this. 172 01:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it would clarify things for me to tell you that in my opinion, the aim of the Bolshviks prior to 1924 was to build what they referred to as "the dictatorship of the proletariat", which is something quite distinct from socialism/communism. I agree that the Bolsheviks hoped to some day build socialism, but that is not the same as "... first purported effort to build socialism". Do you see? BostonMA

Yes, their view of socialism presupposed the dictatorship of the proletariat. But they were confident that the dictatorship of the proletariat would lead to the building of communism and socialism. You are right to maintain that their conceptions of the terms rendered them distinct. But I see no problem with the wording I proposed avove-- for clarity and brevity-- because it makes no reference to sequencing or time horizons. So it just skrits the issue of the discourses within Marxism at the time as to when the building of socialism was to begin. 172 02:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Your wording does indeed skirt the issue of what the Bolsheviks actually thought and said about their actions. I'm not sure that is a good thing for an article on communism. Clarity and brevity also apply to my wording. I think it is important to stick with the policy of strict accuracy and verifiable sources, because that will help to prevent bias. There is a danger, I think, that the current wording provides support for straw-man arguments against communism. Providing support for straw-man arguments, when one could just as easily be accurate gives the impression of non-NPOV. (BostonMA 02:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Not to quibble with your point, I fell compelled to point out that while one can say that the text does not contradict those 'straw-man arguments agaisnt communism,' it does not support those 'straw-man arguments' per se. For a general sourcebook writing an entry on communism, describing Bolshevik rule following the October Revolution as the first attempt in modern history to build socialism on a large scale is a concise and sufficient way of making an important observation. Reference sources like Wikipedia are simply not expected to go into the same level of detail on Marxist discourses on revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat as (say) Encylopedia of Marxism in their entry on communism. As I keep on telling Gibby, while I think your observations are valid, there's only so much material that the general article on communism can cover, with the article being left with a reasonable word count. Meanwhile, there are literally thousands of articles on the English Wikipedia related to communist ideology, Communist parties, Communist regimes, and discourses on Communism that lack editors, desperately needing the kind of attention that has been devoted in the past couple of days to the talk page of this article. In sum, we can get around to better specifying the particular sentence that you're calling into question-- as soon as the article is unprotected; for now, though, we'll have to wait for the matter involving Gibby to be resolved before this article can be unlocked. 172 04:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

One significant POV is that socialism/communism was tried in Russia and failed. Another significant POV, probably a minority, is that that socialism/communism has not been tried. Stating that Russia was the first attempt to build socialism is an explicit denial of the second POV. You repeat your arguments about word count, conciseness, and avoiding detailed Marxist discourse. I think my proposed wording satisfies those concerns. It is short, concise, and does not contain detailed Marxist discourse. (It does break one long sentence into two, but that was a stylistic choice on my part). Your final point is that your proposed text "makes an important observation". The question of bias requires me to ask "who made this observation?". If it is the editor's observation, then it is original research. (BostonMA 12:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Your final comment suggests that we table this discussion for now. I believe I have made a fair proposal [3] [4] for how to deal with text suspected of original research. You have not yet agreed to that proposal, but you have not made any other proposal for how we ought to procede in a way that avoids edit warring. If you do not feel that we have or can come to a consensus, perhaps we need an outside view to take a look. Please let me know what you think. (BostonMA 13:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

I'm not two interested in that second POV that you stated above myself, but I'll work with you in incorporating it into the text as soon as the article is unlocked. For now, though, this discussion will have to be tabled, as Gibby shows no sign of willing to be less disruptive, as we can see from the comments below. 172 15:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

OH now its about word counts? theres a new excuse? How many new excuses for deleting material you dont like can you come up with in a week?

I suggest you editors write this crap down so you can use it all at once next time you have trouble with information you dont like as opposed to this make-excuses-by-wire approach that you use right now.