Talk:Cary Grant: Difference between revisions

British/English/American?

I changed the British-born back to English-born, as I couldn't see the reason for it and there was no comment left here. Please feel free to discuss it here. Nevilley 07:33 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

"British-born American actor" i though was right because Grant was born in the United Kingdom - England is not an independent country by itself - if it were so your version would be correct - and the "American actor" part is because he is most famous for his American films - offhand i can't think of any British ones he did. PMelvilleAustin 08:38 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

I don't dispute the American bit and if that was me that removed it, it was a mistake, sorry. I've put it back in. Though I note that we don't in the article have when he became American, which might have been interesting. Maybe someone can add it in. -- I don't follow the logic about English vs British: I don't see how it matters as a precise question of legal citizenship - it is a fact that he was born in England, and that would seem enough - we need to know in which country (in however vague a sense!) it was because "Bristol" will not do it for everyone, but "English" is well understood and I couldn't see the need to change it to the rather wider "British". I'm not (I hope) being nationalistic or silly here (not on purpose anyway) - I just think that it's a more precise yet still universally understood way of explaining his origin. In the same way, I'd think it was more useful to say that Sean Connery is Scottish than just that he is British. I hope this makes some kind of sense! :) Nevilley 15:12 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

I've changed "American" to "United States|American". "American" is a just a disambiguation page so the link should go to the country. (I know this doesn't always happen, there are lots of links to nationalities, but I'm working on it!) -- sannse 15:23 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

yep, sorry, my bad (as they say!) :) Nevilley 15:45 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

s'OK :) BTW, He became an American citizen June 26th, 1942. I've not added it because I'm not sure of the best place for it to go. -- sannse 15:50 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I've stuck it in what I hope is a reasonable place, at the end of the para with lots of other life events and dates and things. Nevilley 16:08 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

I have added him to Category:Natives of Bristol. Though tenuous, there is a statue to him there, and I think it is relevant to that category, though am happy to hear otherwise. User:Pseudosocrates 18:31, 24 November 2004 (UTC)

In another article I worked on I put: "British-American to describe someone who had very strong ties to both, born in the U.K. but mainly lived in America. WikiDon 06:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed it to "Anglo-American", simply because it sounds better. User:Johnhpaulin 12:50, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

It may sound better, but I'm not sure that it is better. "Anglo-American" can refer to any white or English-speaking American, regardless of whether they have English or British bloodlines. Merriam-Webster's definition of the term is "a North American whose native language is English; especially : an inhabitant of the U.S. of English origin or descent." I'm reverting the word back to the more accurate English-American. | Keithlaw 21:26, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I thought the same thing you did when I first saw the change. But if you click on the link the Anglo and read it, it does work. I think we in the U.S. have taken the word Anglo and changed it to mean any white-European. Maybe British-American is better than English-American? English does define a person to be from England, but maybe it confuses people who think of it as someone who speaks English? WikiDon 21:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

The Anglo entry here seems ambiguous to me; at best, you can say that there are substantial regional differences in the way "Anglo-American" is used, which I think is still a point for avoiding it. For example, the Anglo entry says that referring to white non-Hispanics as "Anglos" is comparable to calling all Latinos "Mexicans," but if "Anglo" is interpreted as a diminutive of "Anglophone" (which it is in some places), then that analogy doesn't hold true. Back to our man Cary G, I would say that either British-American or English-American is preferable to Anglo-American. I only chose "English-American" because that was how the article stood before the last edit - no other reason. | Keithlaw 21:54, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Cary Grant may have taken American citizenship, but so did Alfred Hitchcock and Anthony Hopkins. As I am writing this, Peter Mayhew (Chewbacca) is becoming an American citizen. Technically, he will have dual nationality. But Grant traded very much on his Britishness in his films. The English-American should be changed to English or British. British would be his nationality, since the country is the United Kingdom - it's the difference between calling George W. Bush and American or a Texan. British is the more common American way to describe someone from UK, partly I suspect as it is less offensive to them. I'll wait for objections, but if there are none, I'll change it to bring it more in line with other Wikipedia profiles. User:Scott197827 10/13/05 8:34 PM

I changed it to BRITISH-American. As to him "trading on his Britishness", the answer is "NO". From the point that he became a legitimite big-time STAR, with 1940's His Girl Friday, he rarely played an Englishman again, four out of the next 38 film roles. In addition, in his private life, he had no intrest in living in the U.K.

• His Girl Friday - American
• My Favorite Wife - American
• The Howards of Virginia - American
• The Philadelphia Story - American
• Penny Serenade - American
• Suspicion - British
• The Talk of the Town - American
• Once Upon a Honeymoon - Irish-American
• Mr. Lucky - Greek-American
• Destination Tokyo - American
• Once Upon a Time – Irish-American
• None But the Lonely Heart – British
• Arsenic and Old Lace - American
• Night and Day - American
• Notorious - American
• The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer - American
• The Bishop's Wife - American
• Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House - American
• Every Girl Should Be Married - American
• I Was a Male War Bride - American
• Crisis - American
• People Will Talk - American
• Room for One More - American
• Monkey Business - American
• Dream Wife - American
• To Catch a Thief - American
• An Affair to Remember - American
• The Pride and the Passion - British
• Kiss Them for Me - American
• Indiscreet - American
• Houseboat - American
• North by Northwest - American
• Operation Petticoat - American
• The Grass Is Greener - British
• That Touch of Mink - American
• Charade - American
• Father Goose - American
• Walk, Don't Run - American

WikiDon 04:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

A very good point, and well backed up. Under the circumstances, I think British-American is a fair description. User:Scott197827 10/16/05

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Middle name: Both his 1904 birth certificate and his 1920 passenger list to the US report his name as Archibald Alec Leach. Questors 21:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

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School - girls' bathroom incident

From his autobiography ch 4.

My, how unclever of me not to have taken cheerful advantage of every opportunity to learn, to acquire skills of any kind, when I had the chance. Instead I cut class after class. One afternoon another boy of equal curiosity and I decided to sneak over to the girls' side of the school to investigate the inside of the girls' lavatories -- known to polite Americans as rest rooms. No one was around. I kept watch at the end of the corridor while he went in to see what it looked like in there. And then just as it came my turn to explore the inner sanctum, I was suddenly, out of nowhere, shrilly nabbed by a powerful female who must have been the hockey teacher at least. Anyway, that did it. My fellow culprit dashed to freedom, and in no time at all I was on the carpet in the study of Augustus "Gussie" Smith, the headmaster. I'd been a frequent visitor there and evidently that was the last straw.

The following morning when the school filed in for morning prayer in the assembly-hall my name was called and I was marched up the steps onto the dais and taken to stand next to Gussie Smith, where, with a quivering lip that I did my best to control, I hazily heard such words as "inattentive ... irresponsible and incorrigible ... discredit to the school," and so forth, and through a trance-like mixture of emotions realized I was being publicly expelled in front of the assembled school.

I quote this to justify my reversion of censorship. Paul Beardsell 01:11, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sexuality

The article says that "some biographers including Marc Eliot" believe Grant and Scott and a romantic relationship. Are there any biographers other that Eliot who claim this. I know there were tabloid rumors, but if Eliot is the only biographer to say this "some biagrapher including Marc Eliot" should be changed to "one biograhper Marc Eliot". Also I'm wondering how reliable Eliot is. I looked at the reviews for his biography on the Eagles on Amazon and many of the posters there slammed him for inaccuracies in that book.--Heathcliff 02:09, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I just re-inserted the little bit about Cary Grant and Randolph Scott's preported relationship. Idle gossip or not, since no one here actually knew either of the two men, it's really rather hard to come to a definative conclusion. However, I have read several other bio's including Marc Eliot's, that furnish some evidence as to the relationship, not to mention the rumors had been circulating for about forty years before Eliot's book. Don't presume to whitewash someone else's life just because you don't agree with it. 63.229.217.132 04:23, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

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• Here is the story I had read before:

• • ‘Grant became a member of a Vaudeville troupe at around age 13. He traveled, ate, drank, slept, etc with his fellow troupe members. During this time, age 13-15, he was introduced to sex with fellow male members of the troupe. Being the age that he was, he was extremely impressionable, and as such went along with what ever they said and did. This introduction to sex with men carried with him to Hollywood, but by the time he was about 23, he decided that he was heterosexual, and from that point on did not have sex with a male again.’

WikiDon 06:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Encyclopedia. Usually (facts) are stated and supported with evidence in an encyclopedia, not rumor. Users that "re-insert" things that have been edited and chastise others for attempting to whitewash Cary Grants life should back up and attempt to be objective. Idle gossip hardly qualifies as fact and shouldn't be "re-inserted" on a page dedicated to factual data to push the editors lifestyle. Rumors should be moved to the discussion page, where they belong. Another point: Was the story used to make your point submitted with permission?

Fish Called Wanda?

John Cleese's character in "A Fish Called Wanda", a very buttoned-down man who feels insecure in his marriage and secretly desires to break free and live an exciting life, was called Archie Leach... am I alone in suspecting a link? (This might be relevant to the Leach references section)--Ponytail 6 July 2005 18:38 (UTC)

I just had the same idea when reading his original name. Maybe there is something on IMDB, I'll check. Ben ^T/_C 04:58, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Religion

RE:

"Grant also sometimes claimed that one of his parents was of Jewish descent, but the stories on that subject vary. In any case, he was raised a nominal Anglican."

If this is your source [1]:

"The source of this rumor...

...which contends.....

They theorize.......

Since there is little evidence to support this entire theory.....

...which was reported second-hand....

Cary did not practice any religion in any formal or traditional sense

...his ideas on spirituality and God are fairly generic and agnostic...

If Cary's natural mother...."

I am removing it AGAIN.

PS:

1) This is an encyclopedia, if you can find it in Britanica, or World Book, etc., we'll put it in.

2) In any case, we don't use terms like "in any case".

3) This was NOT very important to the man in his life, nor should it be important to an article like this, which is about KNOWN FACTS of the man's general life and details about his film career.

4) Can you find something in his own words? An interview?

WikiDon 18:22, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Filmography

John 21:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC) Link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_Present cites a band with no mention to the film.

Quotations

The Quotations section needs to be reworked. There is something wrong with the way the "as per (external link)" references appear.

Revert of Jan 22

I reverted User:Onefortyone's insertion of hearsay content regarding Grant's alleged homosexuality. Given the discussion above and the rough consensus that any information on his sexual orientation should be well sourced, I don't believe Onefortyone's edits belong. | Klaw ¡digame! 23:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand why you have deleted the following passage:

In his book, Hollywood Gays, Boze Hadleigh cites gay director George Cukor who said about the homosexual relationship between Scott and Grant: "Oh, Cary won't talk about it. At most, he'll say they did some wonderful pictures together. But Randolph will admit it – to a friend." According to screenwriter Arthur Laurents, Montgomery Clift was gay and Grant "at best bisexual". Significantly, Grant seems to have been the first using the word "gay" in a homosexual context on screen. In the famous 1938 screwball comedy, Bringing Up Baby, he plays a shy paleontologist who, during one scene, appears in a pink dressing gown telling incredulous observers "because I just went gay all of a sudden."

These are some additional facts supporting the view that Grant was bisexual. Onefortyone 23:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Because those are not "facts." In the paragraph, you have two sources, both of which are hearsay, one of which is double hearsay (someone saying Grant's roommate said Grant was gay) and has the clear motive of labelling as many Hollywood personalities as "gay" as it can. The third point, regarding Bringing Up Baby, has nothing to do with Grant's sexual orientation, nor is it even likely that the word "gay" meant "homosexual" in that context. I encourage you to read Wikipedia:Reliable sources, particularly Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence, which makes it clear that hearsay and unreliable sources are not sufficient for this sort of content. Please leave the paragraph out of the article pending discussion here from other editors. | Klaw ¡digame! 23:23, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I ask you again: Please leave the paragraph out of the article pending discussion here from other editors. And do not make another personal attack on me as you did in your last edit summary. I have given you a clear explanation why your edits do not appear to meet Wikipedia policies. | Klaw ¡digame! 23:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I have cited from a published book by an expert on gay Hollywood. I would say that Arthur Laurents is a reliable source, too. It is also very interesting that Grant may have been the first having used the word "gay" in a homosexual context on screen. Further, there are other biographers who clearly say that Grant was bisexual. These rumors are well known. Do you have problems with the fact that Grant may have been bisexual? See also the discussion above [2]. Onefortyone 23:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I have problems with unreliable sources, and I have explained why none of those sources appear to be reliable to me, particularly not the book Hollywood Gays. If you check the amazon.com entry for that book, you'll find, for example, that Grant himself does not reveal his sexual orientation, and that "There's nothing very surprising about his choice of subjects--Paul Lynde, Liberace, Randolph Scott, et al.--all of whom, conveniently for legal purposes, are deceased." One reviewer, who claims to be a journalist, wrote:

As a journalist myself, I can testify that Cary Grant never gave interviews, even for articles about him. When he HAD to give an interview, he managed never to say anything. So you can write off the Grant interview right away. No conceivable way would he EVER EVER have spoken to Boze Hadleigh. In fact, I can't see how anyone would.

In other words, I'm not the only one who finds that source to be unreliable. In addition, the Arthur Laurents claim is completely unsourced (where did he say this? to whom?). | Klaw ¡digame! 23:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there was no Grant interview by Boze Hadleigh concerning Grant's sexual leanings. In his book, the author cites George Cukor who said, "Oh, Cary won't talk about it. At most, he'll say they did some wonderful pictures together. But Randolph will admit it – to a friend." This is in line with your statement that Cary Grant never said anything when he had to give an interview. The Library Journal, certainly a reliable source, says about Boze Hadleigh's book: "Still, the interviews are highly entertaining and provide an important, mostly undocumented view of the film industry's social history. Recommended for both general readers looking for dish and scholars of gay history and film studies." Sorry, to my mind, you seem to have problems with sources which state that Cary Grant may have had bisexual leanings. See also the Sexuality section of this talk page above. There, another user says, "Don't presume to whitewash someone else's life just because you don't agree with it." Onefortyone 23:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

From that same discussion above: Users that "re-insert" things that have been edited and chastise others for attempting to whitewash Cary Grants life should back up and attempt to be objective. The Library Journal says your source is "entertaining," not reliable or accurate. And I don't appreciate your personal attacks in the least. This has nothing to do with Grant's sexual orientation, but with reliable sources. Please review WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL and stop the personal attacks. | Klaw ¡digame! 23:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you are the person who has completely deleted a contribution by another user, simply because you do not agree with the content of this contribution. This is not a personal attack as you claim. It is a fact and supported by the other user's comment concerning a similar dispute I have cited above. Onefortyone 00:00, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I hope we can work out the dispute concerning Grant's relationship with Randolph Scott. Perhaps some other editors may help. Onefortyone 00:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Here are some further quotes from Arthur Laurents, Original Story by Arthur Laurents: A Memoir of Broadway and Hollywood:

I was afraid Farley [Granger] moving in would be announcing I was gay. Whatever people might think, they didn't know. Now they would. But didn't some of me want them to know I was living with a movie star? Cary Grant and Randolph Scott famously lived together as bachelors; to prove it, they double-dated. The comparison got a smile out of Marmor but Farley and I did double-date: his beard was Shelley Winters, mine was Anita Ellis or Geraldine Brooks. Shelley pretended she didn't know; Anita and Gerry knew and didn't care. (p. 123)

Cary Grant, arguably the finest screen actor of his time, had deftness and humor, was always sexual, usually ambiguous. When we became mildly friendly through Hitch[cock], he told me he threw pebbles at my window one night but was luckless-I wasn't home. His tone made it impossible to tell whether he was serious or joking, but his eyes and his smile implied that even if he were joking, he would have liked doing what we would have done had I been home. That was all and it was enough for me: fantasies are better left fantasies. Monty Clift shared the New Boy in Town pedestal with Marlon Brando. I preferred Monty: more variety, more nuances, more vulnerability. And whatever his sexuality was, it was intensely romantic. (p. 131)

Publishers Weekly says of Laurents's book:

In a jaunty, engrossing style, the 82-year-old discusses the highlights of his 60-year career as a writer, director and producer, the ins and outs of his love life, long-term psychoanalysis and friendships with almost everyone in Hollywood and on Broadway. Laurents is brutally honest about his personal life--his difficulty coming to terms with his gayness, his anger at colleagues like Elia Kazan who named names to HUAC and his even greater anger at himself for working with them--and he rarely holds back when he thinks that others deserve criticism. ... he tells of Katharine Hepburn making antigay remarks at a dinner party; Richard Rodgers's severe alcoholism in his later career; and George Cukor's calculated "rise above being an unattractive Jewish queer by becoming an elegant silver-and-china queen and a Republican." But for all his candor, Laurents comes across as a highly intelligent, loving, politically involved, generous and gracious man--as evidenced by his commitment to social justice, his artistic vision and his long-term relationships with Farley Granger and with Tom Hatcher, who has been his life partner since 1955. Onefortyone 02:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)