Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions

Obama's "Swiss ancestry"

Re [4]: "At the same time, Herren tracked down the 1692 baptism certificate for one Hans Gutknecht – Obama’s seventh-great grandfather on his mother’s side." - I don't think we're including every single country Obama's ancestors were born in. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:16, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Though if President Obama mentioned it personally, it might be OK for him to be in that category here...--Somchai Sun (talk) 22:21, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

There are already too many ancestral categories. Nothing should be in this article that isn't biographically significant, and that includes ancestral categories. The exception is where such things have received extensive media coverage. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:55, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Obama skeet photo staged?

There is currently a Request for Comment at Talk:Browning Citori#RfC: Obama skeet photo staged? The question under discussion is: "The article contains a photo of President Obama firing a shotgun while shooting skeet. Should the caption say that the photo was staged or otherwise faked?" Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion there (and not here, to keep the discussion all in one place). Thanks. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 20:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I vote we close this new section on the basis that it is stupid. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I never said it wasn't stupid. But it would actually be helpful if more editors would comment on the RfC. (For that matter, people can feel free to add that article to their watchlist.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

The RfC has been closed, so we're good to go. Thanks to those who participated. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:31, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Stable version?

The box on this page is now nearly ~2 years old. I guess it just means "This is when the article was FA" status, but why it hasn't been updated since I have no idea. --Somchai Sun (talk) 17:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Benghazi

This article hardly says a lick about the people who died in Benghazi because of him. Someone please expand on this greatly. This is all over the news. There's only one sentence about Obamacare, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.18.176.3 (talk) 01:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Obama is no more responsible for Benghazi than George W Bush was for 9/11, only far-right, unreliable sources disagree.--Somchai Sun (talk) 09:27, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

And FYI, "Obamacare" is the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, also known as the Affordable Care Act. So please read the article again, with this in mind. Did you really not know the name of the law? Tvoz/talk 06:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2013

I wish to change Barrack Obamas photo to a more sophisticated one.

ABloodyTruth (talk) 05:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

 Not done: if you have one to suggest, and it's free of copyright, please identify it. --Stfg (talk) 10:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Parents' marriage: important info being overlooked

The article, as it currently stands, overlooks two points about Obama's parents' marriage that are significant and notable:

- They were married 6 months before he was born, indicating that the pregnancy was several months along at the time of the event,
- There is no mention the societal attitude regarding interracial marriage at that time (1961).

My effort toward a fix has been repeatedly reverted, with one reason presented being, "Wedlock was a big deal back at the time, sure, but not now in the 21st century". I see this as a mistake. Facts need to be placed into historical context for them to convey full meaning. Interracial marriage was illegal in many states at the time of his birth, and was not made legal until he was about to start 1st grade. This article has no mention of the word "interracial", let alone link to an article on the topic. Both points are significant factors in his parents' relationship, and this article will be improved by adding specific mention of these two facts.

As it stands now, both facts can be derived from info that is given (dates and ancestry). But leaving out specific mention creates a vacuum that is akin to having the article not mention that Obama is the first black president, and then justifying such omission by saying something like, "this is the 21st century, and race isn't important". By leaving out these two points, we are failing to give proper context.--Tdadamemd (talk) 02:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

So what? I fail to see how this relates to this article. We have articles for Barack Obama, Sr and Ann Dunham, his parents. As well as his early life and extended family. That's quite enough. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 04:07, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I would agree that there are many facts regarding BOsr&AnnDunham that belongs only in their respective articles, but parents divorcing makes for a significant impact on the life of a child and these are two factors that belong here in this article about BOII. Here is an example of how both points can be communicated painlessly:

Proposed edit:

"The interracial couple married six months prior to his birth on February 2, 1961, in Wailuku on Maui and separated when Obama's mother moved with their newborn son to Seattle, Washington, in late August 1961..."

Current edit:

"The couple married in Wailuku on Maui on February 2, 1961, and separated when Obama's mother moved with their newborn son to Seattle, Washington, in late August 1961..."

Seven added words, that's all I'm suggesting here. I see those seven words to be strongly related to the article, doing a lot to help to communicate where Barack Obama came from and who he is today.--Tdadamemd (talk) 05:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

For anyone who doesn't like hearing this from me, you can listen to Barack Obama himself discussing the importance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3nRBwlcE-0&t=11s

"Look, when my parents got married in 1960-61, it would have been illegal for them to be married in a number of states in the South."

Notice also that the year he first gives for his parents' marriage is 1960, when it can be expected that a lawyer with his level of intelligence would be perfectly aware that his parents got married in the same year that he was born in. While it is not our place to delve into the reasons why he did this, it is certainly our job to communicate the straight fact that he was born six months after his parents got married.--Tdadamemd (talk) 08:03, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

It would give undue prominence to the American social mores of the time to state them matter-of-factly in Wikipedia's neutral voice, and putting them in full context is beyond the scope of this article, as they apply to every unmarried, divorced, or interracial couple from the era. - Wikidemon (talk) 13:23, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

In addition, regarding "As it stands now, both facts can be derived from info that is given (dates and ancestry)", see WP:OR. We don't derive information, we use what Reliable Sources without giving undue weight to the information being added (a second problem I see with your suggestion). JoeSperrazza (talk) 16:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

That is a distortion of what I meant in my use of the word "derived". I was not saying, "take Fact A along with Fact B and then synthesize Fact C". I was saying Birth Date - Marriage Date = 6 months. This HARDLY constitutes original research. Neither does, "observe photo of black father & white mother - now synthesize original research that this is an interracial relationship". Hello people, what we are discussing here are totally UNCONTESTED facts: the marriage was interracial and she was pregnant when she got married. No one disputes this. The issue at hand is whether or not the article would be improved by stating these facts. My position is 'yes'.

My next post here will address this view that the edit would introduce undue weight/undue prominence. On the contrary, the proposal does not go far enough. The article would be improved by also stating explicity that the mother was 18 years old when she gave birth. (I know, more higher math involved here too.)--Tdadamemd (talk) 21:44, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

No, this is absolutely what original research is. It is synthesis. Besides, we don't include anything in the article unless it has received significant coverage in reliable sources. Nobody is talking about either the interracial marriage or the day of conception because nobody cares. Back away from the dead horse, please. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I post a video with Barack Obama himself, expressing the importance in his own words, and there is a backlash from no less than three editors with the sentiment that it is not important enough for an article on Barack Obama. Somebody needs to tell him about this Wikipedia consensus, so he will stop talking about its importance.--Tdadamemd (talk) 22:18, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Show me a list of links to reliable mainstream media sources or scholarly works that demonstrate the significance of Obama's conception date and/or the significance of what society thought of this specific interracial marriage in relation to Obama's biography, and then maybe we can have a proper discussion. If you can't do that, let it go. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:27, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• This very clearly looks like an attempt at synthesis. Anything mentioned about his parents relation should be supported by really good secondary sources. Not by inferences, innuendo or his own statements in random interviews.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Once again, we are discussing facts that are totally uncontested. If the problem is that the proposed edit is not citing sources, there are a wealth available. Here are just the first ones from a quick googling of books:

How Obama Made It?: A Layman's Guide, by Young Sop Ahn

Ann Dunham was only 17 years old... There she met Obama Sr... They married only a few months later in February, 1961. The parents on both sides objected to their marriage. At that time, racial discrimination was severe in the American continent, and inter-racial marriage was illegal and punished as a felony in almost half the mainland states. However, at the time of their wedding, Ann Dunham was already three months pregnant with Barack Obama, Jr.

A comparison of John F. Kennedy and Barack Obama, by Natascha Drews

2.2.2 Obama's social background

His parents met... A few months later, Ann Dunham was pregnant already, they married in 1961. At this time marriages between white and black Americans were forbidden in many other federal states of the United States.

The Obama Question: A Progressive Perspective, by Gary Dorrien

Classes began in late September. By November Ann was pregnant. A discrete wedding was held in February 1961, although there are no official records of it. Soon afterward Ann realized that her husband was already married and a father, with a second child by his first wife, Kezia, on the way. ... Obama was born in August 1961, by which time his parents' marriage was effectively over.

Barack Obama in Hawai'i and Indonesia: The Making of a Global President, by Dinesh Sharma

Probably unaware that most Kenyan men practice a form of polygamy, Ann Dunham remained in the dark during her brief marriage to Obama Sr. that he was already married and had a Kenyan son... "In Kenya, polygamy was (and still is) legal, and there is no limit to the number of wives a man can have. ..."

... When the news of their marriage, which took place on the island of Maui on February 2, 1961, reached the remote Kenyan village of... Ann Dunham was already two to three months pregnant. The Obama elders, especially Obama Sr.'s father, Hussein Onyango, refused to accept the marriage, for it did not follow the proper village customs, and most importantly, he did not want a white woman sullying the Obama blood (Obama 2004a).

That last one give a reference of Obama himself, and here is that exact quote from the original: Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance, by Barack Obama

...my mother began to retell an old story... "... When the two of us got married, your grandparents weren't happy with the idea. ... Then Barack's father--your grandfather Hussein--wrote Gramps this long, nasty letter saying that he didn't approve of the marriage. He didn't want the Obama blood sullied by a white woman, he said. ... And there was a problem with your father's first wife... he had told me they were separated, but it was a village wedding, so there was no legal document that could show a divorce.... Then you were born, and we agreed that the three of us would return to Kenya... By this time Toot had become hysterical--she had read about the Mau-Mau rebellion in Kenya... and she was sure that I would have my head chopped off and you would be taken away." ...

"We were so young, you know. I was younger than you are now. He was only a few years older than that."

Barack Obama writes a book about his life, and in choosing the title he picks "...A Story of Race...", and you all freak out when I suggest inserting the word interracial as a single adjective to help describe his parents' marriage. There are a wealth of books written about Barack Obama, and the issues I have pointed to are addressed by a wealth of those book authors. Yet people here freak out as though I am making some crazed push into uncharted territory. Ok, let's say that no one here likes to read books. Just take a look at this webpage from Biography.com:

http://www.biography.com/people/ann-dunham-434238

The very first sentence is:

Ann Dunham (born November 29, 1942) met Kenyan national Barack Obama, Sr. while at the University of Hawaii and married him after she became pregnant.

There are plenty other references available. I will go out on a limb with an estimate of hundreds. But so long as editors here prefer to keep their heads buried in the sand, there won't be a very bright outlook for an informed consensus on this.--Tdadamemd (talk) 23:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

The point is not whether it is contested but whether it is relevant to draw specific attention to. The article already mentions both where his parents were from and when they where married and when he was born. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)You suggest that based on those data we

Tdadamemd has suggested two edits:

1. Adding the qualifier interracial to describe the marriage of Obama's parents, and,
2. Adding that they were married "6 months before he was born".

Regarding point 2, I've not yet seen (pardon me if I've missed it here) references to reliable sources noting the timing of their marriage and that it is significant to the subject of this biography. As others pointed out, just doing the math ourselves is Original Research - when reliable 3rd party sources offer significant coverage of that point, and note its significance to Mr. Obama, then it can be considered as an addition.

Regarding point 1, there do seem to be adequate references that describe Obama's parent's marriage as an interracial one. I would propose this edit as being worthy of consideration:

"The interracial couple married in Wailuku on Maui on February 2, 1961, and separated when Obama's mother moved with their newborn son to Seattle, Washington, in late August 1961..."

Thanks, JoeSperrazza (talk) 12:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

We shouldn't tag marriages between people of different races with the term "interracial". Attention to such things is a product old American prejudices, not biographical significance to the children, which makes it unencyclopedic. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I am astounded by the level of willful ignorance expressed by the vocal majority here. No biographical significance to Barack Obama? When he tells you in his own words of the significance? When he has written a book of his life and the title itself focuses on the significance? Are any of you bothering to read the quotes provided? Barack Obama himself is telling us that there was fear that his mother was going to be murdered - have her head chopped off - and he would be taken away. Yeah, not much impact on his life there. All of the authors quoted above are writing about Barack Obama's life and they all are communicating the significance. I spent 10 seconds doing a google search, and just presented the first four hits.

The question has become, How deeply do we want to bury our heads in the sand here? Take JoeSperrazza's reply, for instance: "I've not yet seen ... references to reliable sources noting the timing of their marriage..." One explanation, Joe, might be that you poked your eyes out before posting that reply. Here's what you are choosing to ignore:

From 1st book cited- "at the time of their wedding, Ann Dunham was already three months pregnant with Barack Obama, Jr."
From 2nd book cited- "Ann Dunham was pregnant already, they married in 1961"
From 3rd book cited- "By November Ann was pregnant. A discrete wedding was held in February 1961"
From 4th book cited- "Ann Dunham was already two to three months pregnant."
Biography.com cite- "Ann Dunham...met Kenyan national Barack Obama, Sr. ...and married him after she became pregnant."

If I had the technology, I would post these quotes in Braille, because there appears to be a blatant aversion to so much as a visual scan of the printed word here in this forum amongst those willing to speak up on this. You all are certainly free to continue to ignore everything I've provided, but it is perfectly clear what is important to all of these authors when writing about Barack Obama, and it is perfectly clear to me what belongs in this Wikipedia article.

I'll highlight one more quote:

But so long as editors here prefer to keep their heads buried in the sand, there won't be a very bright outlook for an informed consensus on this.

--Tdadamemd, 23:19, 10 December 2013

At the time I had written that, I was not aware of the depth that this forum was capable of, but now that has become quite clear. I am not so much disappointed with the editors who have expressed their choice to ignore the wealth of info provided. My deepest disappointment is with the untold numbers of editors who are sitting back and choosing to remain silent on this. Nelson Mandela's body isn't turning in his grave, because it hasn't even been buried yet.--Tdadamemd (talk) 22:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2013

date of birth 1095 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.12.234.4 (talk) 17:01, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Cool, my mother was born then. Good year. --Somchai Sun (talk) 17:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)