Talk:Banu Nadir: Difference between revisions

An entry from Banu Nadir appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 16 June, 2006.

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Disputed

This article is currently claimed by some to violate the Neutral Point of View policy.

There is currently a dispute over the accuracy of some statements in the article.

Discussion follows.

don't believe it! where are your sources?

Need to see the sources of this story...first time hearing this! At least google it! can't believe this was futured on the main page. Do you have sources for this?

• See all the references under the References section... — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 16:06

why cant we believe it..we dont need any sources to believe in the glorific(read horrific) exploits of mohammed.just a look at any islamic country of the intolerance of muslims in general might say what their revealed prophet might have been like....

• I'm trusting that wikipedians will not take the bait on this inflammatory and anonymous comment. We'll continue to focus on the article and what can be done to make it as good as possible. Anon Y. Mouse 19:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Don't forget that everything has a source isn't true. There are good and valid sources but also we face hundreds of bad and false sources. In my opinion, the section about Muhammed is a total dust. Muhammed wage many wars against the local tribes(and of course many people died in these wars) but he didn't go and loot anywhere. With respect, Deliogul 20:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• This article has been poorly written and is not objective at all. The use of emotive language is unjustified and i cannot believe that this is featured on the main page. I am not muslim and i already find this offensive. The writer(s) should be ashamed if their intention is to attack another religion with the ulterior motive to build on the hatred and prejudice against the Islamic faith. Clemondo 06:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone really needs to look at this article...

I'm no expert but this doesn't seem to be very subjective.

• Isn't that a good thing? Or did you mean objective? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 16:09

people seem to get too confused with these two words.....no offence at non english speaking people or anyone else...

External links

Looks like you've got two bad links there - might want to investigate them. Interesting article, though. Tony Fox (speak) 16:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• They were just improperly formatted. Should be fixed now. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 16:34

Jewess

"Jewess" isn't an anti-Semitic term. At most it might be considered sexist, as explained at dictionary.com, but then why isn't "Latina" considered offensive? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 17:16

Uh... what are you talking about... it says in the link you provided that it is "now a highly offensive term." It's anti-Semitic and most often used by Russians. Latina is a hispanic word. Jewess, like Negress, is an outsider's pejorative epithet. Tchadienne 17:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you even read the Usage note? It is not anti-Semitic; it is at most sexist, for the reasons explained in the Usage note on the link that you claimed to have read:

"Like many other English nouns in which the suffix -ess is added to a gender-neutral word to indicate femaleness, the terms Jewess and Negress are now widely regarded as offensive. It is interesting to note that the objection to words formed with the -ess suffix does not apply to words such as Latina and Chicana, whose contrasting forms Latino and Chicano are not gender-neutral but rather refer even in English primarily to males."

Also read the Usage note at -ess, which clarifies that the source of the offensiveness is the added gender to a term that normally referred to both genders. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 17:26

I cant figure out what you're point is... it is anti-Semitic. Whether or not, it's still "highly offensive" so dont use it. Theres nothing to discuss here. Tchadienne 17:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not it's offensive is not the point; it's that it is not anti-Semitic. It is sexist. You can claim it is anti-Semitic if you want, but you have simply been misled. If you read the Usage note at -ess, you'll understand why:

"Many critics have argued that there are sexist connotations in the use of the suffix -ess to indicate a female in words like sculptress, waitress, stewardess, and actress. The heart of the problem lies in the nonparallel use of terms to designate men and women. For example, the -or ending on sculptor seems neutral or unmarked. By comparison, sculptress seems to be marked for gender, implying that the task of sculpting differs as performed by women and men or even that the task should typically be performed by a man."

Read the above, and you'll understand why it may be sexist, but it is not anti-Semitic: "Jew" implies either male or female Jewish person; "Jewess" appends a gender to the word, for no particular reason, which is seen by people as offensive because there was nothing wrong with referring to a female Jewish person as a "Jew" in the first place. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 17:47

To make Brian's job easier I will simplify the basic statement: "Jewess" is generally considered an offensive term. Form your own conclusions why based on some of the citations. I think it does not belong in a wikipedia article. Anon Y. Mouse 18:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:54

Why can't we just use the term "Jewish woman"? It conveys the same information without offending anyone (women or Jewish people). No need to discuss it ad nauseum. If there is a less-offensive way to say something, why not use it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.88.199.98 (talk • contribs) .

Re: "Expulsion of the Banu Nadir from Medina" Section Rewrite

There's a couple of sentances in brackets that need to be expanded on, and moved into the main body of the section, or removed. Mr Minchin 17:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Where? I think you're referring to previous vandalism that was removed. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 17:58

Clearly biased perspective.

Brian, are you by any chance a Jew? Maybe not. Doesn't really matter, as falsehood is false even if spoken by an honest man, and truth is truth, even if it is spoken by a liar. Which are you? I believe the former. This article, I'm afraid, mixes fact with opinion, blurring the line between truth and falsehood. I like the fact that you quote alot of Arabic sources, translated by one Mr Stillman. Have you read the original Arabic sources, or relied purely on the translation of one man who seems to have an agenda. The article, I'm afraid is flawed. It is not written in an objective manner at all. It's an article that should not be read seriously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redahmeid (talk • contribs)

• I had no part in writing the article. Why are you going after me? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:19

• You need to be specific. What is flawed about the article? What is wrong with the translations of Professor Norman Stillman? Why do you think he has an agenda? Which sections or sentences are false? Why shouldn't the article be read seriously? What is not objective about it? Right now, your post looks like nothing more than FUD. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:23
  • Brian, are you serious? This is the most blatantly non WP:NPV I've seen in a long time. Even if the facts were completely NPV, which seems extremely unlikely, the article itself is obviously not. Even if "the Jews of Medina, guilty only of hard earned wealth, innocent of any wrong doing throughout, were repeatedly set upon by the dastardly Mohamed and his supporters, murderous and scandalous, motivated always and only by treachery and avarice" were accurate history, which seems inherently implausible, a NPV article would at least have to put such vile criminals in a cultural context. As it is, having this article on the front page is an embarrassment. Some administrator really screwed up here. Oh, it looks like it was you. Might I respectfully suggest that you ask an administrator colleague whose judgement you trust to double check your call that this article is NPV. - Anon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.30.119.55 (talk • contribs) .

• And this is the part where I start heating up my popcorn. Anon Y. Mouse 18:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh, the drama! :) — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:48

Negative Light

This article - and the first paragraph in particular - appears to have been written in order to deliberately display the Prophet of Islam in a negative light.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by SafetyFirst (talk • contribs) .

• You need to be more specific. Which parts are biased, and what changes can be made to fix this bias? Please assume good faith by not claiming anything was deliberately done for whatever reasons. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 18:46

If we could find a middle ground between this article and the first part of [1], I'd be satisfied. BhaiSaab ^talk 18:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Unreliable sources do not provide grounds for compromise. What can be the purpose of directing our attention to such nonsense?Timothy Usher 05:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

"These intrigues of the Jews", "Jewish conspiracies"...oh my.Timothy Usher 05:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to some more suggestions here on the Discussion page for how this article can be improved. This is a great opportunity for Wikipedians to show how controversial topics can be handled. Anon Y. Mouse 19:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Can you find a neutral, reliable source, such as a book on Google Books, or better yet, a paper on Google Scholar, or a page on a .edu site that you agree with? I'm not sure about trusting a website, especially one called "The Way to Truth", to depict events objectively. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 19:09

• ok brian i have a question here which might be silly/naive but i still have.why are references from .edu sites or professors from univs considered unbiased or most reliable.they can have an agenda too..after all professors do have religious affiliations.- an atheist
  • It's not going to be easy to respond to an anonymous statement that has an inflammatory comment embedded in it like this one. If you genuinely want more info I'd refer you to the Wikipedia NPOV policy for details on how Wikipedia defines bias, and how to avoid it. Anon Y. Mouse 19:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • how was that inflammatory.it was an honest acceptance of reality.anyway if mentioned the inflammatory part wud be eliminated and you can answer the question abt veracity of .edu sites.
  • I didn't say they would be unbiased. It's just easier to find the unbiased entries when you're not searching all the intarwebs. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 21:14

changes have been made to the question now.

Ok, here's ny neutral view, if any would care to hear it: the article, as a whole, seems put into a negative fashion. Ill start adding them slowly to the talk page. BUT, the article can easily be simply toned down a bit and you can take only the info thats included in the POV sources and the NPOV sources.--AeomMai 20:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For some reason, it is possible that Norman Stillman has a biased POV. Most of the negative parts came from his worls. It might be good to use info that eceryone agrees is fact, since no one can go back to 622 and say that he saw the looting. The killings during war are obvious. Is it true that ALL the men were killed?Even the old men? Bit of a surprise, seems a bit harsh. You guys vcan discuss the rest.— Preceding unsigned comment added by AeomMai (talk • contribs)

I understand your surprise, but most of the Western research of the early history of Islam is based on Muslim sources and the scholarly sources used in this article are no exception. Pecher ^Talk 21:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought I may contribute some opinions -

• The article portrays that the Banu Nadir were innocent of any wrongdoings in their dealings with the Prophet and his followers. However ibn-Hashim stated that the tribe's behaviour had become increasingly insulting/provocative after a particular incident. The incident in question, which occured after the Battle of Badr, happened when a Muslim lady went into the shop of a Jew to make some purchases. The shopkeeper behaved insultingly towards her, whereupon she called for help. Her call was answered by a Muslim man, who arrived on the scene. A scuffle broke out and the shopkeeper was killed, whereupon the Muslim man in question was set upon by some Jewish men and was murdered. Upon investigation, none of those accused of the killing of the Muslim man was ready to admit his guilt. This incident, ibn-Hashim tells us, was not isolated.

• The article states that Ka'b bin Ashraf wrote 'erotic poems' about Muslim women. It is my understanding (and I'm sorry I can't reference this) that he wrote scurrilous poetry, degrading and insulting about ladies in the Prophet's family.

• Ka'b bin Ashraf also went to Mecca, after the Battle of Badr, and visited the Quraish (who were defeated in the Battle), and roused them into taking an oath, with the skirts of the Ka'bah in their hands, that they would know no rest until they had destroyed Islam and it's Founder. This has been taken from "The English Commentary" of the Qur'aan, a heavily researched, well referenced essay, by Maulawi Sher Ali, Mirza Bashir Ahmad amd Malik Ghulam Farid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SafetyFirst (talk • contribs)

Replies:

• (I presume that "ibn-Hashim" is ibn Hisham) A Jew being murdered by a Muslim doen't sound like much of an evidence of provocative behavior on part of the Jews. Anyway, this incident was not used as a pretext for the attack on Banu Nadir.
• The perception of any verses is POV by definition; the article says that Muslims found them offensive.
• Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf talks about him calling for the Quraysh to fight against Muslims. The call was quite understandable, I must say. Pecher ^Talk 21:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Reasons

here are some reasons why i feel that this article is not of NPOV status

... a qualification which provided Muhammad with a convenient pretext for nullifying his obligations toward Jews at a later time.

• POV - i don't think i have to explain why. implication that he would implement this pretext when he wanted to nullify obligations towards the jews, which is inherently false. the jews violated the conditions of the pact that they signed, which resulted in further steps being taken.

... Infuriated at Muhammad's execution of a number of Meccan notables who had been captured after the Battle of Badr, Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf wrote a poetic eulogy commemorating the slain Quraysh prisoners of war; later, he also wrote erotic poetry about Muslim women, which Muhammad and his followers found offensive.[4] Because the norms of the Arab society of that period demanded retaliation for a slight to a group's honor,[3] Muhammad called upon his followers to kill Ka'b, and Muhammad ibn Maslama offered his services, collecting four others.

• POV - factually incorrect - this is more of stillman's speculative POV. Ka'b went to Quraysh to incite them to fight against the Prophet references provided here

"He went to the Quraish weeping over their killed (at Badr) and inciting them to fight with the Prophet."1

(The Prophet said): "He (Ka'b) has openly assumed enmity to us and speaks evil of us and he has gone over to the polytheists (who were at war with Muslims) and has made them gather against us for fighting"2

"And according to Kalbi, he united in a league with the Quraish before the curtains of the Ka'bah, to fight against the Muslims."3

"And he prepared a feast, and conspired with some Jews that he would invite the Prophet and when he came they should fall on him all of a sudden."4

therefore, he himself violated the pact (conditions of which are highlighted in ar-raheeq al-makhtoom), to which he was also required to adhere to, and thus his killing was due to his incitement of war, as well as his insulting. stillman opines that it was merely a matter of honour.

... Muhammad felt himself strong enough to finally move against the Jews of Medina.

• POV. as said above, the jews violated their pact. there is no citation for this suggestion and is merely speculation of someone's intention.

"As his first target, Muhammad chose Banu Qaynuqa, the weakest of the Jewish tribes, who were the clients of the Khazraj, and forced them to surrender unconditionally after a short siege.

• POV. he went to the marketplace calling upon banu qaynuqa, calling them to accept islam lest they ended up like the quraysh who were just defeated. the implication is that he chose this tribe for the greater aim of expelling all of the jews, so he would start with the weakest first. throughout the article this unfounded notion goes unreferenced to any early or primary source. this was not a threat of expulsion, and neither was it a threat of war, as it can be interpreted in a number of ways due to the indirect and rather ambiguous language. qaynuqa responded with hostility and an open challenge, and due to their hostility they were expelled. from bismikaallahuma:
  

"Addressing them, he said: "O Jews! Become Muslims before what befell the Quraysh befalls you." They said: "O Muhammad, you seem to think that we are your people. Do not deceive yourself because you vanquished a contingent of Quraysh having no knowledge of war and got the better of them; for, by God, if we fight you, you will find that we are real men, and that you have not met the like of us". Their answer clearly contained a challenge and a threat, despite the fact that they had accepted his leadership according to the terms of the treaty. This report comes through Ibn Ishaq[2]. Ibn Hajar said that it was hasan.[3] But the isnad includes Muhammad ibn Muhammad, the freedman of Zayd ibn Thabit, whom Ibn Hajar himself said was majhul (unknown).[4]

Even if we accept Ibn Hajar?s suggestion that the report is hasan, that does not mean that the reason for the expulsion of Banu Qaynuqa was their refusal to accept Islam, because at that stage Islam still allowed the Muslims to live in peace with them, and the Prophet did not make entering Islam a condition for any one of the Jews to stay in Madinah. Rather, the Document[5] ensured the religious freedom of the Jews. The reason for their expulsion was the aggression which they showed. This resulted in a breach of the internal security of Madinah." end quote.

"The Banu Nadir remained passive during the whole Banu Qaynuqa episode, apparently because they failed to grasp Muhammad's intentions at that time and viewed the conflict as a usual tribal struggle."

• POV, a continual plug of the notion that the ends was justifying the means in that the aim was to kick all the jews out, as opposed to jews attempting to debase the muslims and convey hostility resulting in their expulsion.

"... Muhammad needed a victory to regain his prestige. The Banu Nadir were a suitable target ..."

• POV, stillman's speculation, not factual in the least.

"... when Muhammad ordered the felling of their palm-trees"

• - citation needed.

"Muhammad easily found a casus belli. Claiming to have received a divine revelation, he accused the Banu Nadir of plotting to assassinate him"

• implies that he was looking for a casus belli in the first place. this is compounded by the above allegations that expelling of the jews was an ulterior motive when such is POV and speculation.

"Muhammad reserved a share of the seized land for himself, which also made him financially independent.[8]"

• from a factual perspective the statement of stillman, a relatively recent orientalist, is by no means sufficient. please provide some references from primary sources or early historians.

these are a few of the concerns i have highlighted with this article. unfortunately many of the articles concerning early islamic history seem to be a bit misrepresented (i.e. marriage to safiyya, expulsion of qurayza) also, perhaps muslims can spend more time dispelling speculation, POV and factually incorrect material? i propose the language used in this article is reviewed and expressed with neutrality, highlighting stillman's perspective as opinion and not fact. Itaqallah 22:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Can you suggest alternate wordings for each of the statements you highlight, with proper sourcing, to be implemented into the article? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 22:15
  • much of the statements require factual proof for them not to be considered POV, so the burden of proof is upon the claimant. else, that which has not been properly referenced to early historians or primary sources should be removed as it is not proven to be correct, or factual, as of yet. as for rewording of certain parts then i do hope that i would be able to contribute and provide a viable alternative where i am able, although much in this article overlaps into other ones. will do so soon if possible insha allah Itaqallah 22:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm not claiming the current article is accurate, but we need something to put in place of the current content before we can make a change... — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 22:33
      • absolutely. and to that end i will attempt to propose rewordings where possible, although myself and some others believe that the whole tone underpinning this article (especially re: style of language used) requires review, so it may take some time. Itaqallah 22:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
        • We can only there is a dispute over an article when at least two editors quote reliable sources saying contradictory things and cannot arrive at a consensus. bismikaallahuma.org doesn't qualify as a reliable source, and I don't see anything else being cited. The argument boils down to an editor's disliking the article and proceeding to say "give me time to find sources". I understand that an editor may disagree with Stillman, but as long as there are no other high-quality academic sources disagreeing with him, there is no basis for a dispute. Pecher ^Talk 23:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
          • bismikaallahuma does not qualify as a reliable source in and of itself, that is correct. however i have provided the links so that one may take a look at the references they have given where i have quoted from their articles. as stated earlier, the burden of proof is upon the claimant, not on the one trying to refute the claimant. the POV of stillman is of no relevance (and most certainly should not be stated as fact), the correct resources must be referenced, else the POV statements should be removed. secondly, i have not requested time to find sources, i have requested time to re-express much of the article while adding the relevant citations where possible, and i assume that those who have done such understand that it does not occur immediately. similarly, i am not requesting immediate change of the article until a viable alternative is apparent- the point of this discussion is ascertaining whether or not POV is present, and if so to what degree. regardless, a person's argument regarding POV cannot be disregarded on the basis of his asking for some time. Itaqallah 23:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
            • I didn't look at the link and the references it uses, nor do I intend to. If these sources are reliable, you should use them directly, not through the filter of an unreliable website, which may have twisted them, omitted pertinent information, or done all the kinds of things we may expect from such a website. Pecher ^Talk 08:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
              • i would not use the sources directly as this would be implying the research is my own which it is not. yes evidences can always be twisted, as we have seen from mr. watt, muir, self proclaimed pseudo-scholars like mr. winn and mr. sina as well a whole range of orientalist critics of islam, including mr. stillman. not to mention the respective websites which may propagate misinformation of their own (as well as the aforementioned personalities' works), just as strongly as you feel opposing websites guilty of doing similar. Itaqallah 14:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

What is Wikipedia coming to?

Muhammad took a share of the booty -first paragraph! This article is heavily bias and definitely uncited and lacks credibility. How it is featured on the main page is suspect. Wow..this is the biggest dent Wikipedia has put in its credibility in my eyes, outrageous. - Sohailstyle 2006-06-16 21:43 (UTC)

I agee 100%, this article is a joke. It leaves out most important facts which caused friction between the Banu Nadir and early Muslims. I am really surprised it made the front page. Fkh82 21:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

You have to be more specific. What is left out? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 22:06

It's really important when taking issue with facts that you think are misrepresented or missing that you provide what you believe to be the accurate information. It's not enough to just say "most important facts" are missing. Wikipedia needs your help to fill in the blanks and correct inaccuracies, not just express an opinion on whether or not you approve of the article. Anon Y. Mouse 22:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Uncited? What about the 13 sources under the References section. Are you denying that Muhammad took Safiyya bint Huyayy as a wife? You have to be more specific. Which parts are uncited? Which parts lack credibility? Without these details, your post looks like nothing more than FUD. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-16 22:06

Regarding the external resources listed...

Okay so let us see. It is an article written about the history of Islam and Mohammad (PBUH) and the resources quoted include Bearman (who is Jewish) and Stillman (who is also Jewish). Arabic sources that are "translated" by Stillman (Jewish). Very nice! History of Islam written by Jews.

Oh and one more thing, the external resources cited, in fact, seem to give us another POV. This is quoted from http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_jews.shtml which is listed as an external resource.

"At Muhammad's insistence, Medina's pagan, Muslim and Jewish clans signed a pact to protect each other, but achieving this new social order was difficult. Certain individual pagans and recent Medinan converts to Islam tried to thwart the new arrangement in various ways, and some of the Jewish clans were uneasy with the threatened demise of the old alliances. At least three times in five years, Jewish leaders, uncomfortable with the changing political situation in Medina, went against Muhammad, hoping to restore the tense, sometimes bloody-but predictable-balance of power among the tribes.

According to most sources, individuals from among these clans plotted to take his life at least twice, and once they came within a bite of poisoning him. Two of the tribes--the Banu Nadir and the Banu Qaynuqa--were eventually exiled for falling short on their agreed upon commitments and for the consequent danger they posed to the nascent Muslim community."

The other site quoted, managed by Ali Sina who has made it his life's mission to "help muslims leave Islam". http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_nadir.htm

The third site http://www.shodalap.com/Jews_in_Madina.htm#_ftnref4 quoted says, "The Jews were NOT innocent at all. The punishment they got was an inevitable outcome of their horrendous and heinous crime. The crime was not ‘rejecting Islam’, but something more fatal, homicidal, and severely atrocious. It’s very absurd to claim that the prophet (peace be upon him) maltreated them; rather, the prophet (peace be upon him) was maltreated by the Jews in every step of his life in Medina."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, now it should make any intelligent human think that first of all the article is written using the words of Jews. One of the external links is managed by a guy who has made it his life's goal to "help muslims leave Islam." The other two sites CLEARLY tell us another point of view. Mohammad(PBUH) was the one whose life was endanger and Jews were the ones who tried to kill him several times even after he gave them a fair chance.

And just because he took a wife, doesn't say ANYTHING about him exterminating Jews. What kind of logic is that? I take a wife who is "not my kind" and all of a sudden everybody thinks I am trying to exterminate her entire clan. I'll tell you what kind of logic is that. It is called twisted logic, biased logic, more like propaganda. If anything, by taking a Jewish wife, Mohammad (PBUH) was trying to patch things up. He was trying for peace.

Its pretty funny how from literally thousands of books, journals, articles, and various publications (may they be online or on paper), the author of THIS article chose to cite things written by Jews and a guy who has made it his goal to "help muslims leave Islam". The other two don't even belong here as external resources.

Oh and I almost forgot. You don't need to "brag" about those 13 references that are listed. If it is only the number of references that matters, I will provide you with hundreds, if not thousands, references from published works that say otherwise. I know, as impossible as it may sound, there just might be a Jew or two who might agree with me. So tell me, will you be willing to edit this page then???????? 137.78.140.190 23:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Ali — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.78.140.190 (talk • contribs)

The attack on scholars as being Jewish is too disgusting to merit an answer. Pecher ^Talk 23:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

But, sadly, pretty typical.Timothy Usher 23:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed...and its breathtaking hypocrisy is also unsurprising ... It is an article written about the history of Islam and Mohammad (PBUH) and the resources quoted include Bearman (who is Jewish) and Stillman (who is also Jewish). Arabic sources that are "translated" by Stillman (Jewish). Very nice! History of Islam written by Jews. All I can say is... "Qur'an...Very nice! History of Judaism written by a Muslim!"  :-\ Tomer^talk 23:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, excellent... this isn't all too constructive. Often on Wikipedia we have people attacking scholars because of their religion instead of their merits. It's also attacking instead of discussing. That's obviously bad and I have warned the anon on his talk page. Now, let's get back to discussing the article... I hope the anon has gotten the point that he should not do that but... and Tomer... does that really help any...? So, Banu Nadir discussion... go! gren グレン 23:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Uhhhhhhhhh, have you read the Quran? Quran is not a history book and it is most certainly not a book about Jews. How very typical of an arrogant Jew to assume that Quran is about Jews. Notice how both of these reponses seem to focus on my attacking the merit of Jewish scholars. No one bothered discussing the issue of the resources and external links provided. How ridiculuous is that! The links provided as resources, themselves tell another story than what is mentioned here. And you know what, if anybody attacks Mohammad(PBUH) claiming to do so for the sake of academics, I am going to attack HIS academic integrity. 137.78.140.190 23:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Ali

Stop, this talk page is about the Banu Nadir... if you must argue then use his talk page. Not here. And if you make any more attacks against Jews like that I will block you for two days. If you wish to discuss the article then feel free to. gren グレン 23:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear anon,

1. Please sign your posts. Typing 4 tildes (~~~~) at the end of your post will do this for you quite easily, and make it possible for the rest of us to keep some kind of perspective on who's saying what here.
2. Nobody was focusing on your attacking the merit of Jewish scholars, we were focusing on the fact that you attacked scholars for the simple reason that they are Jewish.

Cheers, Tomer^talk 23:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately Gren, you are right. Scholars are often attacked for their religion rather than for their merit and for a good reason. Usually works are biased even if scholars don't intend do, religion is just so deep and such a sensitive issue within us that it is extremely difficult to stay objective. There is a saying which we have that it takes two hands to clap. I will never believe a Jewish scholar and a Jew will never believe a Muslim Scholar. Jewish scholars give a distorted view of history (in their favor of course) and Muslim scholars do the same. There are very few exceptions. I am a man of science and I try to keep religion and science seperate because they do often conflict BUT I am also a Muslim (alhamudulillah) and I WILL react if there is a pathetic attempt to defame Muslims all over because I am one of them and everything I hold dear is at stake here. But you know what, this battle is an old one. It is at least as old as Islam itself. If anything, history (depends which one) bears witness that Muslims actually treated Jews better than the Europeans/Christians did. We don't even need to go far back. One can just look at World War II. Hitler tried to wipe out the scum of Germany and England tried to throw them into a wasteland of Africa by relocating them there and "finding them a home" which ended up being Israel. Two-for-one...let's take care of Jews and Muslims in one strike and let's get rid of both our problems by making them kill each other and hence the infernal struggle of Palestine vs. Israel was born. 137.78.140.190 23:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Ali

It's not surprising that there is alot of vitriol in this dicussion. Everyone please do your best to focus on the central issue of this specific topic. We are not going to be settling any eternal struggles on this discussion page so do not make that your goal. Anon Y. Mouse 00:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

A reminder of standards

A perfect Wikipedia article... is completely neutral and unbiased; has a totally neutral point of view; presents competing views on any controversies logically and fairly, pointing out all sides without favoring any particular ideal or viewpoint. The most factual and accepted views are emphasized, and minority views given a somewhat lesser priority, while at the same time giving enough information and references for the reader to find out more about any particular view.

One aspect of a Neutral point of view is Fairness and sympathetic tone.

If we're going to characterize disputes fairly, we should present competing views with a consistently positive, sympathetic tone. Many articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting both points of view. Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.

We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.119.55 (talk • contribs)

Is the Fairness and sympathetic tone standard currently met?

The previously mentioned [2] says Muhammad arrived in Medina in 622 believing the Jewish tribes would welcome him. Contrary to expectation, his relations with several of the Jewish tribes in Medina were uneasy almost from the start. This was probably largely a matter of local politics. Medina was not so much a city as a fractious agricultural settlement dotted by fortresses and strongholds, and all relations in the oasis were uneasy. In fact, Muhammad had been invited there to arbitrate a bloody civil war between the Khazraj and the Aws Allah, in which the Jewish clans, being their clients, were embroiled.

Does anyone believe the article sympathetically presents this complex clan-based characterization of the situation in Medina?

Does anyone believe that the pbs page doesn't have a dramatically more NPV than the current article?

Does anyone believe the article currently meets the sympathetic tone standard? And thus the NPV standard? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.119.55 (talk • contribs)

Possible todo - Flag the article as having NPV issues

This was recently done. And then someone else removed it. In light of the current discussion, can we agree on some flag to inform readers there is a large divergence of opinion on the quality of the article? Some believing the article is just fine, and others believing it a disaster?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.30.119.55 (talk • contribs) .

• i believe that there is a POV issue with the article as well as factual errors, some of which have been highlighted. therefore i added to totallydisputed tag. Pecher suggests that as there is nothing opposing the "high-quality" scholarship of stillman as of yet, there is thus no dispute re: POV. i disagree as a POV is a POV (as has been demonstrated here) and not fact until clear references to the relevant sources (primary, or early) have been given. thus making statements and referencing it to stillman's view carries no weight and no guarantee of NPOV. Itaqallah 01:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • From NPOV dispute, How can one disagree about NPOV?
    • The vast majority of neutrality disputes are due to a simple confusion: one party believes "X" to be a fact, and—this party is mistaken (see second example below)—that if a claim is factual, it is therefore neutral. The other party either denies that "X" is a fact, or that everyone would agree that it is a fact. In such a dispute, the first party needs to re-read the Neutral Point of View policy. Even if something is a fact, or allegedly a fact, that does not mean that the bold statement of that fact is neutral. Neutrality here at Wikipedia is all about presenting competing versions of what the facts are. It doesn't matter at all how convinced we are that our facts are the facts. If a significant number of other interested parties really do disagree with us, no matter how wrong we think they are, the neutrality policy dictates that the discussion be recast as a fair presentation of the dispute between the parties.
    • later... To mark a dispute on a page, type {{POV}}...The above label is meant to indicate that a discussion is ongoing, and hence that the article contents are disputed and volatile. If you add the above code to an article which seems to be biased to you, but there is no prior discussion of the bias, you need to at least leave a note on the article's talk page describing what you consider unacceptable about the article. The note should address the problem with enough specificity to allow constructive discussion towards a resolution, such as identifying specific passages, elements, or phrasing that are problematic.
  • Does anyone disagree that the test for having a POV flag present has been met?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.30.119.55 (talk • contribs) .

Possible todo - Remove the article from the front page

The front page is wikipedia's showcase. Where we show the best we have to offer. The Did you know guidelines explicitly emphasize NPOV. Beyond that normally expected of just any article. It is the second test mentioned, after only new-ness.

Does anyone argue that the article currently meets this stringent test?

If not, should it not be removed from the front page as being currently inappropriate for DYN?

• The question is not whether the article can be improved. It is whether it currently meets front page standards. If not, its presence there is a mistake which should be promptly rectified.

• Well, it has been 6+ hours since the current DYK was put up... they can be removed anyways. gren グレン 01:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• When we're talking about single facts like this, judging neutrality becomes much more difficult. So, the test is not as stringent as you make it sound. In practice, the only cases that are obviously biased are those that use a specifically-biased word, like "harshly" or "wonderful", etc. If there is something non-neutral about the fact, the fact can be changed; there's no reason to eliminate the entry altogether. Suggest an alternate wording, and see what others think. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-17 03:37
  • Is it a wordsmithing problem? Change a few words and it's all better? Or a pervasive failure of intent? Consider [3]. There are only a couple of possibilities. (1) It represents a tiny minority view which may be ignored. (2) The current article fairly and sympathetically represents the views therein. (3) It doesn't, but that doesn't matter. (4) It doesn't, needs to, and thus is currently a NPOV failure. That's it. (1) is wacko, (2) unsupportable, (3) a misunderstanding or willful disregard of wikipedia policy, and (4) tells you both what needs to be done, and why the article didn't belong on the front page.
  • Similarly, do you believe the article was written in a spirit of fairness and sympathy for Mohamed and Islam? Fairness can be argued with facts. But sympathy is there as a standard to emphasize that the intent must be righteous. Perhaps the reason this article has drawn such visceral objection, is that the spirit in which it was written is not at all subtle. And had little to do with sympathy.

Possible todo - Flag the article as having Accuracy issues

As mentioned elsewhere, a totallydisputed tag was added, and then removed by someone else.

Accuracy dispute says

• if only a few statements seem inaccurate:
  • insert {{dubious}} after the relevant sentence or paragraph.
  • insert a "Disputed" section in the talk page to describe the problem.
  • ...
• if there are more than five dubious statements, or if a dispute arises:
  • insert a "Disputed" section in the talk page to describe the problem. This will help focus contributions from others.
  • paste {{disputed}} in the beginning of the article to add a general warning. Check dispute resolution for ways to resolve it.

Does anyone believe a dispute has not arisen?

Does anyone believe a disputed tag is not thus now appropriate?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.30.119.55 (talk • contribs) .

I don't understand how an article that clearly doesn't meet Wiki standards was not only placed on the DYK page, but also as positioned as the first article.

I think there are some accuracy issues here with not only the sources, but with the verbiage in the article. Someone who unfortunately sounded somewhat anti-semitic made the point that most of the sources stem from Jewish writers, and while he went off on a belligerent tangent, this is a point that should be taken into consideration.

The Jewish scholars may not have an agenda or be any less than fine academic scholars, but consider a juxtaposition of a similar religious tension: Would Wiki allow a series of Irish Catholic scholars to make up the bulk of citations in an article written about Irish Protestants? The fact that PBS, a relatively reputable source, had a completely different take on the same series of events should have resulted in an immediate removal of this article from the DYK page.

Pretty alarming, if you ask me. ----—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Benplln (talk • contribs) .

• It was placed at the top of DYK because its picture was used. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-17 03:39

Ok, but there still weren't several thousand other articles that had comparable pictures of which content wasn't being disputed? I don't think it should be left up, especially in the midst of all of this debate. I think it's been shown that the article is less than objective in some areas, and there are immediate contradictions within it. ---- Ben

• Several thousand? Do you know how DYK works? — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-17 06:35

What a sad time in history, and the beginning of all the problems we have today regarding jihad. Monty2 06:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Tempted to revert to revision as of 17:47, May 27, 2006

This was the last version which didn't have absurd bias from loaded phrases. "Booty," my ass. All the academic references in the world aren't going to make up for writing in a style which ascribes all bad acts to only one side in an ongoing tit-for-tat conflict. All you apologists of this article's current state should be ashamed of yourselves. Publicola 06:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The change of "booty" to "spoils" is an improvement.Timothy Usher 06:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

"Booty" doesn't mean what you think it means, I think. Can you please specify your problems with the article? What sections or sentences contain problems, and how can those problems be fixed? Your rant is unproductive. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-17 06:36

I'm sorry, you're right, that was uncalled-for. Publicola 08:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules of civility and NPOV permit groups which normally only spit hate at each other to slowly create consensus articles. And permit... things like this, to slowly become useful articles. But that takes time. Something this article didn't get. (I just now found the wikipedia articles on intellectual honesty, jingoism, religious bigotry, and hate, to be of interest).

Specific problems with this article

Yes, I can specify the problems with this article, from this source:

The tribes at Medina were more welcoming, many even converting to Islam. After a military episode, the Battle of Badr, Muhammed and his followers consolidated their power as the ruling party, although much of the population that had remained Jewish was left unaffected. Three of the Jewish tribes - the Banu Qurayza, Banu Qaynuqa, and Banu Nadir - signed a non-aggression pact and military alliance with Mohammed, the Constitution of Medina.

Jews and other non-Muslim people living under the protection of the Muslim authorities were considered dhimmi - in exchange for paying a tax, jizya, Muslims would provide military protection. Such dhimmi had similar rights, and could continue their culture and worship, even being exempted from military action when a military jihad was called by the Muslim group. Female dhimmi were also allowed to marry Muslim males, although the converse was not true without male dhimmi converting to Islam....

After a while, a member of the Banu Qaynuqa was alleged to have murdered a Muslim woman, and was killed in retaliation by a Muslim, leading to a chain of revenge killings. Arbitration failed, and full scale war broke out, until Abdullah ibn Ubayy ibn Salul, an old ally of Qaynuqa, interceded on their behalf and persuaded Mohammed to send the entire Banu Qaynuqa into exile, consequently confiscating their land and property. The intersession of ibn Salul saved the Jewish tribe but gained him the enmity of Muhammad. The conflict led to a ruling that such future action by any of the other parties to the Constitution of Medina would constitute a voiding of their benefits under the system, and subsequent punishment.

The fact that that entire prelude (which I remember similarly from a different authoritative source which is currently inaccessible to me) was omitted from this otherwise very detailed and apparently carefully sourced article makes me suspicious.

I need to check the edit history -- back in May, this article, although much shorter, made it perfectly clear that the source of the dispute was controversial, with the truth of the matter essentially lost to history. The fact is that the conflict stemmed from a single disputed murder accusation.

This current article, in the "Arrival of Muhammad" section, completely omits these details, making it seem like the Muslims acted unilaterally, without provocation. I don't think it was a good idea to link this from the Main Page in this state at all. Publicola 06:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Your source is itself unsourced. And who's "Jersay"?Timothy Usher 07:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

At least my source (which is just a cached copy of an earlier title of Historical persecution by Muslims) doesn't assume that Constitution of Medina was signed before the Battle of Badr, which the editors citing Stillman's book have been falsly implying in their edits to the present version. Use Google and you can find plenty of corroboration of the fact that the Battle of Badr occured before the signing of the Constitution of Medina. The current version of the article doesn't even hint that the Jewish tribes signed on to the Constitution -- in not so many words it implies it was imposed without consent -- what a crock! Publicola 07:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. There are sources claiming 622, c. 623, and 624 for the constitution, and I'm inclined to believe now that the Battle of Badr did not come first. Publicola 08:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

More of the same. Do you have any reliable sources contradicting the article? As far as I have seen, you don't. It is unacceptable to add riginal research into the article, even with a fact tag; it is even more unacceptable to add a fact tag to a sourced statement, just because you have no access to the source. Pecher ^Talk 08:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Publicola is relying on foul language and incivility against other editors. He hasn't offered even one source conforming WP:RS and bases his filibustering on ludicrous assessments (There are sources..., Use Google and you can find... ), articles by anonymous writers he boldly labels "source" and his WP:OR. This doesn't warrant any reaction at all. --tickle me 12:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

If your comments are not constructive, please keep them to yourself. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-17 12:45

But Tickle me appears to be right.Timothy Usher 12:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

How so? Before I started in on it, this article implied that the Constitution of Medina was imposed without the consent of the Jews, when it is clearly a mutual non-agression and mutal-defense pact, as well as an agreement allowing the Jews to continue in their religion. Morover, the of the several alleged insults of the Jews, only one (the erotic poems) were mentioned. The intro didn't explain that the Banu Nadir were evicted AFTER a Muslim war with the other Jewis tribe, and it didn't explain that the Nadir had joined forces with the attacking Meccans and Bedouin before they were slaughtered. I find it hard to believe that those flaws escaped the attention of earlier editros, but I will assume good faith. Publicola 21:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• in the "arrival of muhammad" section of the current reversion, it implies that the constitution was signed after badr. this is factually incorrect, as the pact with the jewish tribes was made before badr occured when power had already been consolidated in Medinah. this is why ka'b ibn al-ashraf's incitement of the quraysh (after badr) to fight is especially significant as he acted in violation of the pact, especially as he enjoyed a high status. please refer to ar-raheeq al-makhtoom ITAQALLAH 00:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That was my fault. I had a class on the History of Islam several years ago, and I just remembered this part wrong. I tried to fix it once, but left some mistakes in the chronology, so I tried to fix it again. Publicola 01:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Reverted Changes

When everybody agreed with the changes, especially made by "Publicola", then why things are changed back. I think prejudice should not be entertained on this encyclopedia. If someone is not ready to understand the fact that how the spoils were treated, how they were managed in the society in the times when human slaves were used to be considered worse than animals, then it is their problem and it is not history's problem. I would recommend that article be restored back to [4] ( 19:49, 17 June 2006 Publicola) SS

• Who is "everybody"? I don't see anywhere above that anyone agreed with Publicola's changes. As for your recommendation: simply voicing your opinion doesn't count for anything here. You have to give rationale for why you believe a version is superior, backed up with evidence from reliable sources. Publicola's source was an old copy of a Wikipedia article, which is not a reliable source. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-17 12:48

Suggested Alternatives

i thought that those who believe that changes are required in the article could contribute here so we can come to an agreement of what would be acceptable in terms of fact as well as NPOV (in the light of the above extract from POV dispute.

Arrival of Muhammad in Medinah

as opposed to the current paragraph on the arrival of Muhammad (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) in Medinah, i propose something like the following (which i have compiled):

"In September 622, Muhammad arrived at Medinah with a group of his followers, who were given shelter by members of the indigenous community known as the Ansar. Amongst his first actions was the construction of the first Mosque in Medinah, as well as obtaining residence with Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (Ibn Kathir, al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Vol II, p.279). He then set about the establishment of a pact between the Muslims and the various Jewish tribes of Medinah(Ibn Hisham, Vol. I, p.501), which was to regulate the matters of governance of the city, as well as the extent and nature of inter-community relations. Conditions of the pact included boycotting Quraysh "commercially" as well as abstinence from "extending any support to them", assistance of one another if attacked by a third party, as well as "defending Madinah, in case of a foreign attack".(Al-Raheeq Al-Makhtoom, Saif-ur-Rahman Mubarakfuri; Ibn Hisham Vol. II, pp. 147-150; Ibn Ishaq pp. 231-235). It was later that certain tribes would be claimed to have violated this pact due to supporting enemy forces, such as the Quraysh, against the Muslims."

please discuss the viability (or not) of these alterations. if it lacks NPOV or factuality, please state where and how. i felt it necessary to mention more conditions of the pact relevant to the latter events. Itaqallah 14:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

anyone disagree with the above? ITAQALLAH 00:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The article is about Banu Nadir, not Muhammad; therefore, information about the first mosque etc. is not relevant. The section as it stands provides sufficient background to understand subsequent events; readers can find the rest in other articles. Pecher ^Talk 10:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

regarding your first point, somewhat agreed. i do concede that perhaps the mentioning of the construction of the first mosque as well as residence with aby ayyub al-ansari may not be relevant. i added these parts to clarify that the formation of the pact does not seem to have been one of his first actions. i also felt the need to expound upon the difference between ansar and muhajir which has been confused in the section, thereby mentioning both but keeping it relatively short. the second point i disagree upon, as i do not think the section is sufficient especially when highlighting the significance of the pact in this affair. it is neccessary to mention other specific clauses instead of citing a general clause (open to interpretation) and then opining that such was offered with the intention of gaining opputunity for deliberate manipulation. the clauses mentioned in my proposal, i believe, are directly related to the latter controversies between the parties involved, and integral to understanding the context of other events within the article. ITAQALLAH 18:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, what clauses would you like to see mentioned? Pecher ^Talk 20:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

they have been mentioned (in quotation marks) in my proposal. ITAQALLAH 23:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I cannot find the clause on boycotting the Quraysh commercially in the text. Regarding the obligation to assist each other in case of an enemy attack, this one is mentioned in the article. Pecher ^Talk 20:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[[Constitution of Medina|"The signatories to this treaty shall boycott Quraish commercially; they shall also abstain from extending any support to them."], probably from clauses 25 and 48. Publicola 22:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Extra section re: increasing tensions?

i would also suggest that another section is added after the above which expounds upon the increasing tensions between certain tribes of the jews (not all, i.e. banu 'awf). this is important as opposed to jumping straight from the arrival of Muhammad to the expulsion of banu qaynuqa as the latter does not sufficiently contextualise the event and take into consideration the increasing hostility and emnity between the two parties. Itaqallah 14:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

What factual information do you suggest to put there? Pecher ^Talk 10:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

i suggest mention well-known incident of the killing of the jewish shopkeeper and muslim; perhaps also the incidence re: the muslim woman. although the isnaad of this is weak, it is said to be cited by historians as a possible reason for the spiralling tensions although i will try to verify that claim; the statement attributed to ibn ishaq in ar-raheeq al-makhtoom where safiyyah states that her father (huyayi bin akhtab) saw muhammad on his (i.e. muhammad's) entry in madinah and walked home, saying "my heart is burning with enmity towards him"; the resent of certain tribes on hearing the muslims' victory in badr; the story of shas bin qays (an elderly jewish man) where he attempted to spread discord amongst the muslims by attempting to reignite tribal differences (narrated in raheeq al-makhtoom, as well as risaalat al-islam p144 vol 8. ch. 30, written by al-ustad ash-shaykh muhammad 'arafah). there may also be others that i have either overlooked or am not aware of. perhaps these can also be divided to pre-badr and post-badr controversies?

it does not matter who was or wasn't the culprit in these affairs. the intended point is that there was a breakdown in community relations due to increase in enmity as well as incidents which increased hostilities between the two parties. ITAQALLAH 19:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This point is addressed below. Academic sources view this incident as an ex-post facto attempt by Muslim historians to justify the expulsion. No one seriously believes it was indeed Muhammad's motive. Pecher ^Talk 21:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

i have provided four examples, which ones are cited as ex-post facto justifications (as you used "incident" in the singular) and by which reliable academic sources?

what has been suggested by myself is not regarding justification of the expulsion, else it would have been proposed to be in the banu qaynuqa section of this article. this is to outline and highlight the presence of a degree of hostility between the communities, which i feel is necessary for readers in understanding the general relationship between the muslims and jewish (i.e. qaynuqa, nadir, qurayzah) tribes at this time. the actual reason/justification for expulsion has been cited above (negative light/reasons section) in fath al-baari and by al-zurqaani which details the exchange between muhammad and people of banu qaynuqa, and this is also something that needs to be added to the banu qaynuqa section in place of the POV material currently present regarding their expulsion. ITAQALLAH 23:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Expulsion of Banu Qaynuqa

as opposed to the current paragraph regarding banu qaynuqa, of which i have already previously highlighted certain problematic statements, i propose something similar to this:

"It was after the Battle of Badr that Muhammad decided to approach Banu Qaynuqa (the allies of the Khazraj tribe), in the light of previous hostilities, gathering them in the market place and addressing them as follows:

"O assembly of Jews, beware that something from Allah befalls you similar to the curse that descended upon Quraysh, and enter into Islam, for you have known that I am a Prophet that has been sent, due to what you find in your Book and the covenant of Allah to you"

They replied: "O Muhammad, you seem to think that we are your people. Do not deceive yourself because you vanquished a contingent of Quraysh having no knowledge of war and got the better of them; for, by God, if we fight you, you will find that we are real men, and that you have not met the like of us" (declared by Ibn Hajar to be Hasan - Fath al-Baari 7/332; also in sunan abi da'wood 3/402).

It was this exchange which resulted in what is known as the seige of Banu Qaynuqa (al-maghazee lil-waaqidee, vol.1, chapter of ghazwat qaynuqa, al-waaqidee; as-seerat an-nabaweeyat, vol. 2, under chapter of "'amr banu qaynuqa" - arabic version, ibn hisham; ar-raheeq al-makhtoom, saif-ur-rahman mubarakfuri), which lasted for fourteen to fifteen days, after which the tribe surrendered unconditionally. Muhammad consented to the Banu Qaynuqa being expelled when Abdallah ibn Ubayy, the chief of the Khazraj, pleaded before Muhammad on their behalf. The Banu Nadir remained passive during the whole Banu Qaynuqa episode."

please excuse the current messy presentation of references. one may argue that mentioning the narration is original research. to this i disagree and say that i have provided the references in the books of historians who not only document this incident but relate it directly concerning the justification of the expulsion of banu qaynuqa. this is why i have provided the majority of references after the comment following the quote because the references used this narration in explaining the expulsion of banu qaynuqa. i ommitted the last part of the final sentence (of the original article) due to the previous discussion where i opined that it is neither NPOV nor a verifiable claim.

please also note that the first part of the exchange has been taken from ibn hisham. the version present in al-waaqidee is:

"O assembly of Jews! Enter into Islam, for by Allah you know that I am the Messenger of Allah, before there comes to you from Allah the like of what came to Quraysh"

please discuss the viability (or not) of this proposal. if it lacks NPOV or factuality, please state where and how, and propose the relevant amendments. ITAQALLAH 17:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Reverts complain about sourcing but re-insert POV language

At least two people have reverted back huge amounts of very biased language while claiming to revert because of sources. This is unacceptable.

However, it matters not because I have found the following sources which agree on the genesis of the tit-for-tat dispute:

A Muslim woman went (to the market of Banu Qaynuqa) and sat at a jeweler’s shop with her ornaments. A Jewish man approached her from behind and nailed the back of her dress with a thorn. When she arose her garment came off and the Jews all laughed at her insultingly. She called for help and a nearby Muslim leapt at the jeweler and killed him, then the Jews assembled together and killed the Muslim. The family of the Muslim martyr called on the Muslims to punish the Jews, they did so and a fight thus ensued between them. -- "The Expulsion Of Banu Qaynuqa," The Islamic State, published by Hizb ut Tahrir [5]

and:

A desert woman came one day to the Jews' market in the quarter of Banu Qaynuqa` seeking to remodel some jewelry at one of their shops. They persistently asked her to remove her veil, but the woman refused. Passing behind her without her knowledge, one of them tacked her robe with a pin to the wall. When the woman got up to leave, the robe was pulled down and her nakedness exposed. The Jews laughed and the woman cried. Seeing what happened, a Muslim passerby jumped upon the shopkeeper and killed him on the spot. The Jews gathered around the Muslim and likewise killed him. The Muslims' relatives called for help against the Jews and a general fight between them and the Banu Qaynuqa` erupted. -- "Between Badr and Uhud," Life of Muhammad, by Muhammad Husayn Haykal, translated by Isma'il Razi A. al-Faruqi (1991) [6]

and:

There is a report which says that one of the Banu Qaynuqa tied the hem of the garment of a Muslim woman who was in their market-place, in such a way that when she stood up, she was uncovered and she screamed. One of the Muslims came and killed the Jew who had done it. Then the Jews attacked the Muslim and killed him. The Muslim's family called on the rest of the Muslims to help them against the Jews. The Muslims became angry, and bad feelings arose between them and the Banu Qaynuqa -- "The Expulsion of Banu Qaynuqa," Madinan Society At the Time of the Prophet, by Akram Diya al Umari (1991) [7]

Therfore, I will be citing the contested statement with those three sources. In the future, if you feel you must revert unsourced statements, please do not also replace biased language such as I worked so hard to eliminate from the intro and the middle sections. Publicola 20:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

None of the websites cited (hizb-ut-tahrir.org, witness-pioneer.org, bismikaallahuma.org) qualifies as secondary source. Also, refrain from personal attacks, opining on my motives. "...why did you claim that I "refused" to provide sources requested, after less than an hour of their being demanded?" You are requested to do so before you edit, without being demanded. --tickle me 21:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The al Umari and Haykal books are both textbooks "produced by scholars and published by scholarly presses" and therefore are within Wikipedia's definition of reliable secondary sources on historial topics. Why are you claiming they are not? The websites simply provide (some of) the content of the books.

Anyone viewing the edit history can see that you claimed a "refused" to provide requested sources when I had already marked the murder story with {{fact}} tags and while I was finding the authoratative sources above. Publicola 21:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

vandalism

I vandalised the article unintentionally, see my explanation here. --tickle me 22:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Some references to Muhammad's action were put on the front page by me with special reference to Constitution of Medina, but then all changes were reverted back. Opinion of Muslims should be there on the page, not as a fact but as an opinion. I don't have any problem with accepting the fact regarding execution of jews, the problem is that when statements are made like Muhammad needed a victory to regain his prestige. How do they know that this was his intention? My explanations are with the Medina accord, that is more authentic piece of document. Secondly, http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=263&sscatid=147 is a page with good sources and explanations for execution of Ka'ab bin Al-Ashraf. Even this link was removed from the front page. If someone can look into this reverting back of document again and again, it will be appreciated.SS

understanding-islam.com qualifies as a primary source, not a secondary source per WP:RS. WP doesn't counter scholarly assertions with arbitrary POV. --tickle me 13:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Well! understanding-islam.com was in the external links, and not as a source itself.SS

Continued reintroduction of bias by reverts

Of those of you who have been reverting, would you please stop? I am certain that you do not believe that you object to the whole set of changes, because you are also reverting ovbious mistakes, text supported by reliable secondary sources, and re-introducing language claiming, for example, "[Muhammad's] first actions [included] the promulgation of a document known as the Constitution of Medina." -- which clearly implies that the Constitution was imposed without consent, when it was in fact a negotiated mutual-defense treaty. This is inexcusable.

If there is a reason that such reversions are intended to correct some error, instead of maintain an anti-Muslim bias, I can not see it. Please enlighten me. Publicola 19:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It might be a good idea for you to sart with using reliable sources. In addition, you've violated the three-revert rule. You may be blocked unless you do a self-revert. Pecher ^Talk 19:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Which sources are you complaining about? The sources I have added are website versions of scholarly textbooks from academic Islamic publishers. Are you simply trying to say that you would prefer that the article contain reference to works of Jewish scholarship and not any works of Muslim scholarship? We need both to be neutral.

As for 3RR, you had better take another look -- Tickle me has admitted to "accidentally" vandalizing the article (by deleting half of it), and reverting vandalism doesn't count. If you aren't following this talk page close enough to understand this, what business do you have making such accusations? Publicola 19:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

You did not simply restore the blanked portions of the article, but also reintroduced your POV into other parts, so those were still reverts. Pecher ^Talk 19:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, please! The 3RR rules allow any number of reverts of simple vandalism, without regard to whether the last good version is yours or someone else's. What an absurd attempt to wikilawyer the rules! You just made that up, didn't you? For someone who uses the 3RR complaint process as much as you seem to, you ought to know that your assertion is not based in any policy. Pathetic! Publicola 20:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is an incomplete list of mistakes replaced by reverts:

• Intro:
  • Implication that Muhammad expelled Banu Nadir "Shortly" after his arrival; in fact it took several years and a military campaign which took him away from Medina in between the events.
  • Implication that the eviction was unilateral, and not in reaction to a war with another jewish tribe.
  • Implication that the slaughter was unilateral, and not in retalliation for the Jews' assistance of the attacking Meccans.
  • Unsourced "widow of the tribe's slain treasurer" as opposed to "captured Muslim woman"
• Background:
  • "Academic historians" claim for unsourced statment(!)
  • deletion of {{fact}} tag without replacing source
• Arrival of Muhammad:
  • Implication that the Constitution was imposed without consent
  • Very biased claim that "status was conditional upon their not "acting wrongfully", a qualification which provided Muhammad with a convenient pretext for nullifying his obligations toward Jews at a later time."
    • (a) That status was not changed until after provocation by the Banu Nadir's chief (e.g. erotic poetry about Muslim women)
    • (b) "convienient pretext" -- unsupported subjective conjecture, not encuclopedic objectivity
  • No mention of the equal rights provided by the constitution before it fell apart.
• Expulsion of the Banu Qaynuqa from Medina:
  • Could anything be more biased than this passage? "Muhammad felt himself strong enough to finally move against the Jews of Medina." It's subjective, unknowable, and loaded, pretending to document the motivations, all while completely ignoring the well-documented source of the conflict.
  • The source being the escallation from the stripped muslim woman in the jewish jewler's shop, which I carefully documented on request, from reliable secondary sources which were falsely claimed to be unreliable -- and reverted away without explanation
  • Very viased claim: "The Banu Nadir ... failed to grasp Muhammad's intentions at that time" -- this ascribes "intentions" in a subjective, non-encyclopedic way. Just the facts, please.
• Assassination of Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf:
  • Reversion of sourced detail concerning the legality of the killing.
• Expulsion of the Banu Nadir from Medina:
  • Unsourced "Shortly after" when years passed
  • Huge amounts of biased language -- you can look at the diff yourself; it's obvious. Publicola 19:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, you've never cited a single reliable scholarly source to support your POV, including for issues you're trying to raise above. That's just a list of differences, not a support for your edits. Pecher ^Talk 19:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, you have clearly not even been following this discussion. My edits are supported by:

• Akram Diya al Umari (1991) "The Expulsion of Banu Qaynuqa," in Madinan Society At the Time of the Prophet [8]
• Muhammad Husayn Haykal (1991) "Between Badr and Uhud," in Life of Muhammad, translated by Isma'il Razi A. al-Faruqi [9]
• "The Expulsion Of Banu Qaynuqa," in The Islamic State, published by Hizb ut Tahrir [10]

...which are all scholarly academic texts -- and therefore reliable secondary sources according to WP:RS -- which just happen to be available in part on the web.

Moreover, much of the list above doesn't need sources as the bias is obvious on its face. "Muhammad felt himself strong enough to finally move against the Jews of Medina," is biased, POV crap no matter how many reliable sources state it. There is no way to know how or what Muhammad felt. Why are you so opposed to simply reporting the facts instead of this biased nonsense from Jewish reference sources? Publicola 20:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

These are just retellings of an anecdote from ibn Hisham; there is no reason to cite these websites, as we can cite ibn Hisham directly. Give me a single academic source accepting this incident as an actual cause of the expulsion rather than an irrelvant story, possibly invented centuries after the events. Pecher ^Talk 20:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I have given you three. What source suggests that the story was "possibly invented"? Why do you insist on using only Jewish sources in the disputed portion of this article? Do you not agree that we should be drawing on both Jewish and Muslim sources for balance? Publicola 00:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

"..biased, POV crap no matter how many reliable sources state it" That's too ridiculous to answer. Will you finally stop pushing your original research here? Pecher ^Talk 20:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

You can not be serious. You are claiming that the deletion of a passage from a Jewish source, claiming to know the motivations of Muhammad, is original research? How, exactly? Under what definition is deletion of a statement research at all, let alone original?

Why do you keep reverting to the version that so clearly stated the constitution was "promulgated" instead of mutually consented to, without bothering to correct that horrendous and obvious mistake? Publicola 23:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Your repeated labeling an academic source as "Jewish" is too disgusting to merit a response. Pecher ^Talk 09:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Disgusting? Disgusting is acting all put-upon when guilty of supporting blatantly obvious bias. The source in question is published by the Jewish Publication Society of America -- are you purporting that it is balanced all by itself, and we don't need any Muslim sources in the disputed sections for a neutral point of view? Absurd! But not unexpected from someone who continually reverted to statements such as the constitution was "promulgated" as opposed to signed by mutual consent, and more than a dozen other obvious bias problems. Publicola 09:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The source in question is Norman Stillman. Inferring that his writings are biased by themselves because he is Jewish or partly being published by the "Jewish Publication Society of America" is openly racist. On Islamic issues, as with any issue, what WP needs and demands is sources complying with WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:V. NPOV demands that all notable sides are represented: with historic topics that's exclusively scholarly, preferably contemporary, secondary sources - whether Muslim, Jewish or Martian is not relevant.

Primary sources wikiwise serve exclusively for illustration of what secondary ones say ...if the ultimate goal of explaining issues is thus served. I will concede that anyone pushing an Islamic POV is in a bad position, as all authoritative Muslim historians died several centuries ago. You might want to address this shortcoming by studying history yourself. Once you become a respected authority in the field, your POV will be cited here, else you're a mere wikipedian who is not allowed to interpret sources, delete authoritative ones, write history on his own or cite just any source, as long as it supports his view. --tickle me 16:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I am astonished at these claims. Do you also concede that anyone pushing a Jewish POV "is a bad position," or not? On what grounds do you claim that "all authoritative Muslim historians died several centuries ago"? Are modern-day Islamic scholars not authoritative Muslim historians? My POV, frankly, is that both sides of this issue have been acting like bloody three-year-olds for thousands of years, since the moment their respective scriptures, which devote so much space to demands for killing those people who don't believe in them, were written. That is not a POV I have been adding to the article, I'm sure you've noticed. My goal here, has been an experiment, to merely add the opposing point of view to this article from which it had so obviously been scrubbed. I've learned a lot, and in fact, this is the first time in my life I have ever been accused of racism. To be so accused by someone making the claims you are is comical, or would be if it wasn't so sad. There is no question that this article will not have a neutral point of view while it includes only one of the opposing points of view, and not the other. There is no way to take them both out, so they must both be included. My version doesn't remove the Jewish point of view, it adds the Muslim point of view and corrects glaring objective inaccuracies such as the "promulgated" constitution which was without question reached through mutual consent. Publicola 16:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You continue to stck to your blatantly racist claims that everything written by a famous scholar is "Jewish POV" because the scholar is Jewish. I don't see any reason to continue the discussion with an editor who not only never bothered to read Wikipedia policies, but also uses Wikipedia to advance racist views. Pecher ^Talk 20:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You continue your false personal attacks. I have only claimed that Stillman is biased in the (unlikely) event that his writing actually supports to obvious bias claims I have identified above, to which you have only responded to one by making the date correction ("shortly" -> three years) in the intro. You can not point to a single statement that I have made referring to everything written by Stillman. Your accusations are absurd. Publicola 22:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Continued reintroduction of bias by reverts II

"My version doesn't remove the Jewish point of view...": A historian's assessment who happens to be of Jewish descent or a even practicising Jew isn't the Jewish POV, at least not by academic or WP standards. "...it adds the Muslim point of view": We're to add notable POVs, a POV being regarded "Muslim" by some wikipedian is not notable by itself. "My goal here, has been an experiment": Please stop it. "Are modern-day Islamic scholars not authoritative Muslim historians?": Find those regarded authoritative by their peers in academia and use them to back up your edits. --tickle me 17:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have included three sources, two of them from reputable Islamic scholars published by academic presses. Why do you think they are inferror to the statement in the protected version of the article, which claim to use Stillman to support how Muhammad "felt" about attacking the Jews, and to support that the constitution was "promugated" instead of signed on to? Publicola 19:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph

"Muhammad took a share of the spoils, and took a captive Jewish woman as his wife."

This sets out to portray The Prophet as a warmonger. Reading this first paragraph, one could draw similarities between him and Genghis Khan.

The paragraph also sets out none of the intrigues and machinations of the Jewish tribe, making them out to be an innocent party —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.137.218.39 (talk • contribs) .

Other explanation for killing

It would be interesting to know that how these other sources knew exactly what Muhammad wanted, and are the bible on feelings of Muhammad!!!! From a Muslim perspective, nothing happened against the Constitution of Medina. The killings that followed this incident, were not normal killings. These were the same killings as what Moses asked his followers to kill all those who worshiped Golden Calf, when he was away for forty days. As the bible says, kill your brother, friend, and neighbor (Exodus Chapter 32 verse 27) or with the principle by which Solomon conquered so much land. Muslims believe that this responsibility of spreading the religion was now unto Ishmaelites, rather than Israelites. Once people, deny Messengers, there is no otherway to deal with them unless they are killed. Examples from Quran and Bible are numerous, like Nation of Noah, Nation of Lot and finally Jewish miseries after denial of Jesus. The most official document for Muslims is Quran itself, which says, recall that Abraham was put to the test by his Lord, through certain commands, and he fulfilled them. (God) said, "I am appointing you a leader for the people." He said, "and also my descendants?" He said, "my covenant does not include the transgressors" (2:124), you shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham (22:78), We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you (2:143), and numerous others. When people challenge the Messenger (by not obeying) and hence challenge the authority of God, they are punished by a natural disaster or by the followers of the Messenger. But the general principle in Islam still follows, as written in Quran, ... that whoever took a life, unless it be for murder or for spreading disorder on earth, it would be as if he killed all mankind; and whoever saved a life, it would be as if he saved all mankind (5:32) and And he who kills a believer intentionally, his reward is Hell; he shall remain therein forever... (4:93). The punishment for taking an innocent life is eternal hell, this can be read at numerous places in Quran. So the killing of Jews and others was a special case and is no more applicable. A very good article to understand this point of view is http://www.renaissance.com.pk/mar_d2y2.html and http://www.renaissance.com.pk/mapred97.html . Here I would suggest again, what Muslims believe, may not be fact to others, but should be present on the page as their opinion. A novice reader has the right to know the story from both sides. SS

There is no reason to respond to a comment that calls academic sources "Jewish" based on the ethnicity of the author. Disgusting. Pecher ^Talk 08:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have realized that and I am really sorry, if that hurt your feelings. SS

Again, the source in question is published by the Jewish Publication Society of America and is clearly biased. I think we need to call a spade a spade here, folks. The likes of Pecher have no basis to complain after the bias they have been continiously reverting to, here. Publicola 09:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You're demonstrating utter disdain for WP:NPOV and WP:RS. You cannot disqualify a reliable academic source just because you think that Jews are biased against Muhammad. Pecher ^Talk 09:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hogwash. I make no such general claim, but the cited source -- which is published by an organization that calls itself "Jewish," no matter how much others' use of the term to describe the book disgusts you -- is clearly biased against the early Muslims if it indeed supports any of the 14+ problematic claims I identified above. Publicola 10:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Take this example: "Muhammad felt himself strong enough to finally move against the Jews of Medina." That is opposed to the statement about the escallating conflict after the stripped Muslim woman in the murdered Jewish jewler's store. If there were any actual historical documentation for how Muhammad "felt," then that would be what the source said, and it would read somthing like, "Muhammad's friend Joe wrote that Muhammad felt strong enough to finally move against the Jews;" and not the naked ascribed emotion which appeared in the version you've been reverting to. The story about the stripped woman, on the other hand, appears in several academic sources. Even if a Muslim historian wrote peer-reviewed articles claiming that Muhammad "felt" one way or another instead of stating the historical facts from which he drew such a conclusion, it would be inferrior to the stripped woman story. History just doesn't work that way -- saying someone "felt" some way without saying why is not historical scholarship, it is biased conjecture. Publicola 10:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with Publicaola that the Jewish Publication Society of America is not exactly the best publisher... not because it's Jewish but because they don't have any claim to publishing Academic sources about Islam. It isn't a scholarly press, it is a press created to preserve Jewish heritage in the "New World". That's not to say that they can't publish something worthwhile... but their process doesn't mandate that the book is a credible sources as say a peer reviewed journal should. Kazi Publications is not a credible press for representing Judaism without some outside verification of the work (not that it is necessarily sound for representing Islam in an academic manner, either). That isn't to say the source shouldn't be used... but, this does go beyond the author's ethnicity and to the quality standards of the press. The question is... is it a reprint edition of something previously published by a scholarly press? gren グレン 10:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not a relevant question, as there is no requirement that any source must be published by a university press to be reliable. The book is a very carefully referenced scholarly work by Norman Stillman and bears his authority, which is unassailable on matters of history of the Jews in Arab lands in which he specializes. Pecher ^Talk 11:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but are we talking about God or are we talking about humans for which we say, To err is human. SS 12:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand this comment, sorry. Pecher ^Talk 12:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I have always believed that every man's work is challengeable, because he is a human. So what makes authors of some sources unchallengeable. When you say that XYZ is very expert in his field, would that falsify all other claims by other people or sources? SS 12:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, no one certainly has a claim to "truth"; that's the basis of Wikipedia. Thus, Wikipedia has policies and guidelines as to what sources are reliable, what point of views are notable, and how to deal with conflicting points of view. Pecher ^Talk 12:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Need for an external observer

I believe that once opinions of both sides are included, the article should be protected from editing until disputes have been resolved in talk page. And I believe that http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Banu_Nadir&oldid=59433750 is the proper version of article that contains balanced opinions. Only giving one party to explain an event is not a very good practice in Encyclopedic articles.SS 14:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand that your version has some natural appeal for you, but unfortunately, it contains a lot of original research. Pecher ^Talk 14:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Which parts do you believe comprise original research? Publicola 16:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I do agree that the article should be protected, but it will be protected forever. These two sides will never agree.--AeomMai 17:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

I have requested mediation for this disputed article and Banu Qaynuqa. Publicola 16:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)