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→Requested move 2: reply to anti-AGf and near-NPA vote..... you are voting from personal hostility not re anything to do with issues and guidlelines; that's *against* guidelines. Not that you'll change your vote or deal
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*'''Support''' per nom. An identified people should be the primary topic of a term absent something remarkable standing in the way. [[User:BD2412|<font style="background:gold">'''''bd2412'''''</font>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:29, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. An identified people should be the primary topic of a term absent something remarkable standing in the way. [[User:BD2412|<font style="background:gold">'''''bd2412'''''</font>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:29, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' at least until a proper discussion can be held with the nominator. --[[User:JorisvS|JorisvS]] ([[User talk:JorisvS|talk]]) 13:14, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' at least until a proper discussion can be held with the nominator. --[[User:JorisvS|JorisvS]] ([[User talk:JorisvS|talk]]) 13:14, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
**'''Reply''' Per [[WP:AGF]] and [[WP:NPA]]and [[WP:CIVIL]], you should withdraw that comment, which is demeaning and condescending, since I *am* here, as are others who see my point and the relevant guidelines. If all you can so is soft-pedal insults at the nominator and not address the "support" votes from others, it's clear that your opposition is ''NOT'' based in guidelines but in personal contempt for me; and discussions are ''supposed'' to be about topics and issues; not editors; Your vote should be disqualified on those grounds; I hear all kinds of NPA and AGF whines, but get NPA and AGF treatment all the time, especially from NCL fans. All five or so of them. Stop the axegrinding and discuss the issues, not [[WP:BAIT]] the proponent, or suggest he's not capable of "proper discussion".....it's you who declines to discuss this, and are making me thet issue, ''not the topic at hand'', and are knee-jerk voting on a very personal and now targeted basis.[[User:Skookum1|Skookum1]] ([[User talk:Skookum1|talk]]) 14:20, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:20, 26 March 2014

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Contents

  • This page needs to be rewritten to incorporate the new words written in the Dene/Chipewyan language.
  • Does the paragraph in Dene translate the previous paragraph? If so it should be noted. Perhaps with (Dene translation) written at the end of the paragraph.
  • Does Bëghą́nı̨ch’ërë mean Patuanak or English River? On the Patuanak, Saskatchewan page it is written that Patuanak in Dene sounds like Boni Cheri. Is that the same as Bëghą́nı̨ch’ërë. Maybe we can write the word then the translation like the following: ..... Patuanak ( Bëghą́nı̨ch’ërë) ....... Kayoty 07:22, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't belong in an English Wikipedia, especially without translation; I put it in the section below for archiving purposes. Patuanak and other items should be linked, they never should have been bolded the way they were. Quite a few others terms here can be linked, or redirected.Skookum1 (talk) 05:32, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

text in Denesuline removed

Don't know why this was on there, or what it says, saving it here for "posterity". This is not a Denesuline-language Wikipedia.Skookum1 (talk) 05:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yúnısı dënesųłı̨ne t’ąt’ú harálɂá nı̨sı́ nǫ́k’ë dzıkërëdaı́ łı̨nı̨, łą hánëłt’éhılé nı̨, sı̨ne chu xáıye k’ëtł’a nǫ́k’é nąnëhóɂá nuhënęnę k’ëyaghë. Náralzé, tsádhëdh kádánı̨dhën chu łué hu horëlyų t’á ɂá ɂëhëná sı́ há kádánı̨dhën nı̨.
Kú t’óho tsádhëdh dëne nı̨déł hu, dënesųłı̨ne hotıé yët’orı̨łthér nı̨, hóbëtł’ësı́ tsádhëdh hëtł’él hıjá nı̨ ɂá, dënesųłı̨ne háı̨dël nı̨ ɂëłótsëlı́ hots’ęn. Ku ɂëdırı t’á dënesųłı̨ne ɂená chu ɂëłá ɂëłk’ënádé t’ąt’é nı t’ok’e náradé nare dësnëdhe k’eyaghë chu tunëdhë narë, yunısı kąt’ú dëne húdéł nı̨.

I suspect it's a translation of the preceding in-English paragraph.Skookum1 (talk) 05:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Allan Adam paper 2013

User:Nordendene published the "Allan Adam paper 2013" on Thanadeltth'er and the Dene Suline. User:Nordendene also seems to be the author of the paper as in a previous edit January 30, 2013 he refers to his website at *Official website with the comment (I have ıncluded dëne names of communıtıes and ınserted some of the outlınes ınto dëne yatıe. I have also included my web site link for people to refer to for free language services. Marsı tchogh). So this does not appear to be a copyright violation. .Kayoty 05:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

Template:Requested move/end must be substituted

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus, not moved. (non-admin closure) DavidLeighEllis (talk) 03:32, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

– Most of these were originally at their stand-alone name as proposed; the addition of "people" is unnecessary as being against "conciseness" per naming guidelines (i.e. unnecessarily long). Re this first one listed, and in many others, the rationale given was "vs. lang per naming conv." though I can find no such naming convention stating that a people's language is of equally PRIMARYTOPIC or MOSTCOMMON re the people's name. In some cases the target page is already a disambiguation page; in those cases I have also added a move-to-disambiguation RM, when I am aware of them. In all cases where these are the main article for an FN or tribal category, the category name is also stand-alone; and many have "FOO people" subcategories for "people who are FOO", which makes the main article title at conflict with that, and with the usual context of "FOO people". Some I have avoided, such as Okanagan people (now at RM to move to Syilx and Squamish people (failed RM to move it to Skwxwu7mesh but still at CfD because of the overwhelming name conflict with the town of Squamish, British Columbia - Squamish is a disambiguation page currently also with an active RM; another I have avoided is Coeur d'Alene. Some with "FOO tribe" are not for federally recognized tribes, e.g. Androscoggin tribe; in some cases they now belong to a federally recognized tribe e.g. the Nespelem tribe who are part of the Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation, which is their federally-recognized tribe. So far I have covered all Canadian provinces and territories and six US states, other cases like this abound and IMO were all unnecessary and in some cases Mi'kmaq needless disambiguation pages were created, some of which I have already dealt with e.g. by redirecting Chipewyan from the two-item dab page that was created to Chipewyan people. In cases like Entiat and Walla Walla, with counties and towns named for them, I have added RMs for moving those pages. This multiple RM is the tip of the iceberg and is a consequence of piecemeal and often willy-nilly addition of "people" or "tribe" where the addition was unnecessary; in the case of the Chinook rather than tear up the Chinook disambiguation page to Chinook (disambiguation) I have proposed Tsinuk which is their preferred modern spelling, coined to distinguish from the other uses of that name. Some of these may not pass, but the rest I believe the case is clear that the addition of "people" to "FOO" was completely unnecessary and has resulted in awkward complications re subcategories of main ethno categories and, given that the standard for "FOO people" is "persons who are FOO", conflicts in a big way with naming conventions in that regard. Skookum1 (talk) 09:12, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

– Skookum1 (talk) 09:12, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. These names are generally ambiguous. Should "Wyandot" be the Wyandot people, the Wyandot Nation, or the Wyandot language? We've had this debate before, and decided on being specific. Also, category names are utterly irrelevant. We can name them after articles if we like, but there's no reason to name articles after categories. "Tsinuk" is also a bad idea: The overwhelmingly COMMONNAME is "Chinook". Practically no-one's going to recognize "Tsinuk". — kwami (talk) 10:30, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Your Wyandot examples are flawed; the Wyandot Nation government and the language are secondary uses, not primary (except to linguists who only read linguistics, perhaps). "The Wyandot" does not refer to either government or language, but to the people.Skookum1 (talk) 03:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Adding people to the title is needed especially for small groups of people. It is also used in the following titles: French people, English people, Sami people......Kayoty 17:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC).... Support Chipewyan people move to Dënesųłiné or Denesuline....Kayoty 18:49, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
      • "Denesuline" is how this name commonly appears in Canadian English print media (and is used in broadcasting, often with the mispronunciation "DenesooLEEN"; using special characters on any moved title will incite the WP:UE crowd, though a few cases remain out there; special characters like the colon in Sto:lo and the 7 in Skwxw7mesh are rendered as such in English media, however. I moved Dogrib people from that archaic and derisive to Tłı̨chǫ but intend to file an RM to move it to the usual-English Tlicho which I couldn't do because, unlike others around here, I don't have "move over redirect" privileges......Skookum1 (talk) 08:32, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • The first two you name are "individuals who are FOO". In the case of the Sami, the issue boils down to "most common usage" in English, which nothing else on that page is to the same degree as the people are. How many global ethno articles there are out there in the "FOO people" format, I seem to recall some issue about African articles/categories in that regard.Skookum1 (talk) 03:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Too much ambiguity and too many other things--rivers, mountains, lakes, etc. use these names.--Mike Cline (talk) 21:22, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • But how many of them are primarytopic? Any rivers etc named after these peoples are secondary topics in that the name originates with the people. The geographic ambiguities in many cases are why, where possible/available, the "old convention" called for the use of the native-spelled/authentic form.Skookum1 (talk) 03:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support all of the entries where the target already redirects to the article (e.g., the 30 proposed moved in this list) per WP:PRECISION. Oppose the others where a disambiguation page exists (e.g., Oneida, Walla Walla) per User:Mike Cline. These should be discussed individually on the merits. There are two types of moves proposed here and, ideally, they should have been proposed separately. —  AjaxSmack  01:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Indeed they should have been discussed separately, and not speedy moved from their original stand-alone state as they were. Yes perhaps I should have grouped them, but the overall issue of "FOO people"'s is why they all came at once. Issues about that and former "FOO nation" and "FOO tribe" titles were why the "old convention" was to bypass any such label and just use "FOO", and as a general rule in the "native" spelling, to avoid the geographic confusions that result, especially when "people" is stripped from the anglicize form (as was done in isolation re Category:Squamish); including Oneida and Walla Walla was a bit pointy, but were included for consistency and likewise re consistency there is a huge list of standalone-no "people/tribe" disambiguation ethno articles out there; and the "old convention" was that "people" was often redundant, e.g. with St'at'imc the -imc ending means "people"; "Haida" just means "the people" i.e. "us". My WP:POINT here is to raise the issue of a guideline for native name-use which has been constantly shoved aside. I could have just kept it to cases like Mi'kmaq which shouldn't have been made a mini-dab, as the people are by far the most common/primary use of the stand-alone term. And already once, a main article title has been used to create an ambiguous category Category:Squamish, stripped of "people" from the main article's change to Squamish people - and that has been done TWICE, the second time by someone upset over "FOO people" meaning "individuals who are FOO". Harmonization of category titles with main article titles should not be automatic; but since it is, the "FOO people" format of these ethno articles is problematic; in cases where the native name is now standard for the people - Yakama, Palus, Spokan, Gitxsan, Nisga'a, adding "people" is against "conciseness" as unnecesarily long; and confusing re "individuals who are FOO".Skookum1 (talk) 03:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose bulk nomination. Per e.g. English or Uzbek; it is common practice to have a disambiguation page when there is both Foo people and Foo language. Tassedethe (talk) 03:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • It was/is also common practice to use standalone names, and that "common practice" you speak of was not done by consensus for this group of articles, but overwhelmingly by a single editor acting alone; the Mi'kmaq people are by far and away the primarytopic of that term, and references to the language and other secondary topics named for the primary topic are easy enough to deal with by a hatnote, as on Cree. The madcap creation of disambiguation pages, many of them contrary to dab guidelines as having only two entries, which was the case with Chipewyan until I adjusted the redirect, is uncalled for and not addressed by any convention or guideline as being valid; rather the opposite. There is no reason for Modoc or Gitxsan to be disambiguated that way; a three-item dab is also unneeded when hatnotes are available and especially when both other articles relate directly to the primary topic, as with Gitxsan (Gitxsan Nation by the way is one of the very few cases in Canada where "FOO Nation" is not about an "Indian act government" i.e. band government or a tribal council; it is the term used to refer to the traditional governance embodied by the Office of the Hereditary Chiefs of the Gitxsan which has no government recognition as a formal body). For every case of your "common practice" that's out there, there are at least as many "common practices" which are not the same, and the dab pages you refer to were largely created, again, by one editor acting alone, without consultation or consensus of any kind....invoking the claim of "per convention" for a convention that does not exist, likewise claiming a consensus for his actions which is nowhere to be found; last year's RMs to revert his actions on five major ethno article in BC decided clearly against what he has claimed, despite his determined resistance/stonewalling.Skookum1 (talk) 04:07, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural oppose any swapping of a page with a disambiguation page should be requested separately, for every swap instance, a separate discussion should occur. Any displacement of a disambiguation page and replacement of its location for some other use should also occur separately for each instance. These are all different primary topic discussions. Several of the targets are disambiguation pages, so overwriting a disambiguation page is a primary topic dispute, and should each be discussed separately. -- 70.50.151.11 (talk) 04:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • As per my reply on Talk:Yaquina people, many of those disambiguation pages were created without procedure of any kind, and PRIMARYTOPIC on them was never addressed; only false claims that terms deriving from the people name were 'equally primary', which they are not.Skookum1 (talk) 05:13, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment took me a few hours, but all RMbot messages on target pages of all four bulk RMs now redirect to this as the centralized discussion. I will do the same on the next couple of batches (40-odd states to go...). What I noticed in 19 out of 20 out of them I'll discuss tomorrow; it's 1:24 am here.Skookum1 (talk) 18:25, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Most of the proposed titles are needlessly ambiguous, and breaks with established practice across all ethnic related articles. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is a misleading claim but not surprising given your track record opposing me and your PAs towards me; that "established practice" is NOT across ALL IPNA articles and "FOO people" has that other complication which is also an established practice across "individuals who are FOO". And the "established practice" in these cases is 90 percent the work of one editor acting alone, "establishing a practice" on his own say-so, claiming guidelines that do not exist or were dealt with in isolation from other guidelines or even the full texts of those self-same guidelines. AND 90% of these at least are NOT ambiguous, and were in fact at "FOO" prior to being changed; so evident is this that the wording of the ledes, which were not changed, indicates that the common usage in English in these cases is not "FOO people" but simply "FOO", as in "the FOO are a Native American/First Nations/indigenous people in", and on most of them there is a hatnote "for other uses see FOO (disambiguation) (not to "FOO" as you'd think would have been the case if said reckless editor had done more than just change titles and move on; some articles have the FOO people wording in the lede but other editors tidied that up, where it does occur; but it's rare. Established practice was JUST "FOO" until the reckless change of the bulk (95%? more??) change to them in 2011, as was the convention established early on that - while y'all keep on talking about conventions, none of your ilk will even acknowledge as extant for a very long time; even though there remain many "FOO" articles in all province and state indigenous categories. Exaggeration and misrepresentation and outright fabrication is nothing new to me around here, but man is it easy to shoot holes full of too.Skookum1 (talk) 18:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Since this proposal has to bearings on the general approach to nomenclature of ethnic groups I have notified WP:Ethnic Groups of this discussion.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:33, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good idea. Where's the relevant WikiProject re the "FOO people" = "individuals who are FOO" issue, which is also an "established practice, so vital to someone that she applied it wantonly to create one category with a highly ambiguous name without caring about the consequences....(very funny to hear you talk about these names being ambiguous LOL). I'm all for broader input here but the point here was indigenous peoples of North America only, where various cultural and geographic issues apply, not ethnic groups worldwide...the "FOO people" "disambiguation" clearly is highly ambiguous and something other than "people" must be found to replace it due to the usual meaning of "individuals who are FOO", which is used for both main article titles and overwhelmingly for categories (99+%). And so, the easiest way to deal with the problem of the unnecessary disambiguation that was applied to them, particularly totally unique ones, is to revert them to "FOO" which is where the bulk of them were to start with. cf. what WP:UCN has to say about "conciseness". i.e. brevity as well as clarity. Androscoggin and Timpanog and Ojibwe do not need any extra words in their titles, especially ones that confuse the article's type of content with "individuals who are FOO".Skookum1 (talk) 19:02, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment in keeping with the premise of your notice to WP:Ethnic groups I have done the same for WP:Disambiguation, as their guidelines are clearly at issue here.Skookum1 (talk) 05:51, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all. Explicit disambiguation of people vs. language is preferable. We also have policy on this: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages), which says "Where a common name exists in English for both a people and their language, a title based on that term, with explicit disambiguation, is preferred for both articles". --JorisvS (talk) 19:02, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, then, that guideline needs to be changed, because WP:WikiProject Disambiguation guidelines state clearly that two and three-line disambiguation pages are not called for, and I think that also is to be found in other areas of naming conventions pages. When a hatnote can be used, it should be and mini-dab pages not created. If that guideline says that, it is in conflict with other guidelines and must be changed. And in many of these cases "people" and sometimes 'tribe" was added when there was no language article connected e.g. Androscoggin.Skookum1 (talk) 19:24, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Further comment about that naming convention; it presupposes that the language is equally as PRIMARYTOPIC and MOSTCOMMON, but that is definitely not the case for the bulk of them, ranging from obscure ones like Raritan tribe (Lenape speakers, so a language article does not share that title) or major titles like Gitxsan where the people are highly notable by that name, but the language is not (and is called Gitxsanimaax, but that title was likely "anglicized" to Gitxsan language by the same acting-alone editor. So that convention did not address PRIMARYTOPIC or MOSTCOMMON issues, and is flawed thereby (in addition to the directive from WP:Disambiguation). Once again, I hear a guideline or convention quoted in isolation with no other considerations taken into account - including other guidelines that conflict with the one you are citing's obvious problems.Skookum1 (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment As I suspected, that passage of the naming convention for languages was authored by the very same editor who went ahead and then applied it to the bulk of these articles despite the result being contrary to various other guidelines and conventions including dab policies, WP:UCN, and PRIMARYTOPIC. Moving the goalposts etc. To me that's a conflict of interest and a blatant abuse of guideline-making for a particular agenda i.e. the claim that these peoples' names refer equally "primarily" to the languages they speak, which is not born out by COMMONNAME et al - unless you are only using linguistics books as sources, that is. I haven't looked on the naming conventions talkpage to see if this was ever discussed....but a "consensus of one" is no way to write a guideline.Skookum1 (talk) 03:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the peoples are the primary topic. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:26, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - There is no reason to induce more confusion than is necessary. Disambiguation is preferable for the sake of simplicity. RGloucester — ☎ 19:48, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I know I'll be told that guidelines and conventions in other-language Wikipedias are not relevant to English-language Wikipedia, but:
    • German Wikipedia, which is very thorough on indigenous North American topics, by and large does not use any kind of disambiguation except when necessary; by way of examples their corresponding category for Washington state and for British Columbia have only a very few with the dab "(Volk)" attached, one with "Ethnie" (St'at'imc). I also do note that unlike English Wikipedia they do not distinguish between a people and their band government however it's also worth noting that many of their indigenous articles are much more fully fleshed out than the English counterparts, e.g. for Katzie, compare Katzie people (which should just be Katzie because there is no separate language article other than Halkomelem and, other than their IRs, no place named Katzie.
    • Of other-language wikipedias the only one that has a corresponding category for BC is Turkish and there, again, there is no disambiguation; and plural forms e.g. Kaskalar ("Kaskas") for the Kaska Dena.
    • French Wikipedia also uses plurals, and some "(tribu)" dabs,
    • Croatian Wikipedia uses no dabs and, I note, a lot of very native-authentic names such as Spwiya'laphabsh for the Puyallup, including many titles not seen in English Wikipedia (as also the case with German Wikipedia).
    • Serbian Wikipedia doesn't have much and does disambiguate one and has no qualms about using native-language names e.g. ".tskowa'xtsEnux" for the Moses band (also found in the Croatia WP].
    • Russian Wikipedia also does not disambiguate except in the case of Walla Walla (Валла-валла (племя)).
    • Spanish Wikipedia has both undisambiguated titles and disambiguated ones.
    • What strikes me especially in the German case is the more intense work on actual content of articles vs the only activity on English Wikipedia names by some editors is fly-by-night and rather surreptitious name games ("surreptitious" here also applies to major changes to guidelines without consultation/consensus in order to expedite those moves by pointing to the guideline as unilaterally amended (gee why didn't I try that?) with no actual work on the article, not even fixing ledes to match the new title, never mind real content. The German Katzie content is so good I'm gonna have to translate it over to the English page, in fact; I imagine I'll find the same on various others. So while guidelines from other language wikipedia may be of no concern to guideline-crafters here, or guideline-citers, they do point to a global practice which also indicates that, at least in other languages, stand-alone names for these people are just fine.Skookum1 (talk) 05:05, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would probably be better to handle this through a broader request for comments, maybe encompassing "Language", "Society", "History", and "Politics" as relevant interests. It is general practice that the bare word is a disambiguation page, pointing to both the people and the language. (See French, Vietnamese, Xhosa, or Guugu Yimithirr, for example). If you want to change that common practice, you'll want participation from as many users as possible. That said, there doesn't appear to be much support for this proposed move, so maybe the RFC is moot. Cnilep (talk) 08:12, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why would anyone "fix ledes to match the new title"? We're supposed to bold the title, or elements of the title, where they first appear in the lead, not contort the lead to parrot the title. — kwami (talk) 10:07, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're a laff riot. Duh, from what I remember of MOS the bold in the lede should match the title. And funny you should mention that, the bulk of opening lines show the proper English use of these terms, as standalone. "The FOO are an indigenous people" (not the three words between "FOO" and "people". Normal English meaning of "Chipewyan people said that..." is in reference to individuals who are Chipewyan, i.e. certain ones of them; that usage does not normally get used to refer to the group as a whole because it's perfectly normal to use them in standalone "FOO" form and evidence of that is all over these articles. And by the way, since you were so industrious labouring over the guideline you then used as a lawnmower, and given that name changes are supposed to see the text tidied up by the changer (there is a guideline out there about that) and also that they're supposed to clean up page links to the changed page when changing them....I guess you were too busy mowing through hundreds of articles and well, you just don't care about such niceties, or about consulting others when making such sweeping changes and then being too lazy to clean up after yourself. You and your precious personal guideline were concocted without regard to any other guideline or even the rest of naming conventions i.e. the five characteristics for starters. This little dodge of yours is all too reminiscent of your behaviour during the RMs you can't admit you lost and which set precedents that you should chew on for the next time you re-draft the naming guideline to suit yourself.Skookum1 (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per problems with bulk handling of disambiguation pages and differences from WP:NCLANG as already noted. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:06, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reply Is nobody listening to the point that that guideline was authored by one of the participants in this discussion and that it was written without consultation by affected wikiprojects (Disambig, Ethnic groups, IPNA, WP United States, WPCanada) and who was the same person who disregarded standing convention, creating his own and then applying it across the board? Including anglicizations that since six RMs in BC overturned them? Is one guideline, created by one author, over a host of articles he has used to change (and determinedly resist actions to revert his changes, cf his behaviour in those RMs), mean nothing in the face of those precedent RMs, or all the other guidelines of the naming convention? And of the previous discussions/consensus which created the model for the stand-alone names? Is one guideline created in isolation from all considerations it affects created by one author who is here, in a somewhat COI capacity no less, going to outweigh dozens of other guideline passages? 'Cause that's just not right.Skookum1 (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Many of the objections here regarding dab pages are easily resolvable by using native-preferred endonyms instead of allegedly "most common" anglicisms in older sources. IN the case of this lead article, the common and overwhelmingly-used term now in Canada is Denesuline, whether in two words "Dene Suline" or one. We just don't hear "Chipewyan" anymore, not in media, not by the people themselves and duh, despite objections elsewhere that "we don't care what the people call themselves" in WP:ETHNICGROUP it says straight-out
      • "How the group self-identifies should be considered. If their autonym is commonly used in English, it would be the best article title. Any terms regarded as derogatory by members of the ethnic group in question should be avoided."
    • That's pretty clear huh? So in many cases here we have obsolete, sometimes offensive when not simply archaic names, have replaced widely-used ethnonyms that are now the modern standard, preferred by the people themselves and in wide use in the Canadian media. Another such is Deh Cho, which was "anglicized" to a "most common in linguistics books" Slavey people; yes that's a dab page for now but shouldn't be; everthing else on there is named for this people's name for themselves, including a major region of the NWT that is not, please note, called "Slavey Region" nor is there a Slavey (electoral district). Nor is there a Slavey Tribal Council. The spurious claim that names like Deh Cho are "not English" is rubbish, as any Canadian knows. Also found on some talkpages are discussions like this one Talk:Holikachuk_people#Derogatory_term_in_bibliography (been there since 2008) and note ish ishwar's scold of someone complaining about the title being derisive "you shouldnt just remove this name as you have been doing as it is very prevalent in the anthropological literature. You should, of course, note that the name is dispreferred by tribal members.". "Dispreferred"?? Euphemism for "offensive" or what? Clearly what the people named in article think is relevant has to be taken into account and academic works about them which use archaic and/or offensive terms should be discounted, whether they are "prevalent" in anthropological (or linguistics) literature or not. Time for anthropologists and linguistics types to wake up and smell the coffee and get with the times, IMO. This was all discussed in the "old convention"...apparently of no concern to the author of WP:NCLANG, among so much else. Actually very explicitly he's said, often, that what peoples call themselves is not relevant on Wikipedia - a direct violation of the WP:ETHNICGROUPS guideline just posted above.Skookum1 (talk) 02:27, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for "Chipewyan → Denesuline", but Oppose for "abc people → abc (simply)" --Kmoksy (talk) 04:28, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment as you can see, I've annotated each entry's title history in detail, as to what the target is or isn't and how it came to be. Uysvdi cited WP:TWODABS twice and it's clear that WP:NCLANG was not written with that guideline taken into account (and therefore needs serious revision), or the reality that PRIMARYTOPIC means tht "FOO" is the mandated-by-naming conventions title for any PRIMARYTOPIC, which she also cites when redirecting dab pages back to the original article, though under the changed "people" name instead of to the original. I will do the same on the other three pages later on; this may be WP:POINTy but it's necessary, given the various objections here about dabs to indicate which ones are simply redirects, and which are contrary to WP:TWODABS or WP:PRIMARYTOPIC; all such moves were undiscussed and without consensus, as was the passage from WP:NCLANG that keeps getting cited as reasons to oppose.Skookum1 (talk) 06:56, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment all title histories on this group of RMs have now been completed (see Talk:Yaquina people#Requested move. Talk:Yupik peoples#Requested move, Talk:Cayuga people#Requested move. Those where the target is a redirect to the current title are IMO an open-and-shut case for reversion to "FOO", others were the target is a dab page are often pages where the people are the primary target and the target should be "FOO (disambiguation)". As you will see from the annotations, many of the current "FOO" dab pages were created as "FOO (disambiguation)" and many only concern secondary topics devolving from the peoples. Some I have withdrawn, e.g. Walla Walla, Snohomish and Entiat because of genuine PRIMARYTOPIC issue with well-known county/city names (or in Tillamook's case, with the cheese).Skookum1 (talk) 04:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

Chipewyan people → Denesuline – proposed title was created as redirect to Chipewyan by Ish Ishwar on Dec 15, 2005. Chipewyan title was moved by Kwami to redirect to Chipewyan people on Feb 1 2011 contrary to both WP:UNDAB and WP:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes). "Denesuline" is how this name commonly appears in Canadian English print media (and is used in broadcasting, often with the mispronunciation "DenesooLEEN"; using special characters on any moved title will incite the WP:UE crowd despite WP:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes), though a few cases remain out there; special characters like the colon in Sto:lo and the 7 in Skwxwu7mesh are rendered as such in English media, however. I moved Dogrib people from that archaic and derisive to Tłı̨chǫ but intend to file an RM to move it to the usual-English Tlicho which I couldn't do because, unlike others around here, I don't have "move over redirect" privileges. Skookum1 (talk) 18:10, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose until the issue is addressed properly. These should be discussed at a centralized location.
There was a discussion once on whether the ethnicity should have precedence for the name, and it was decided it shouldn't. That could be revisited. But it really should be one discussion on the principle, not thousands of separate discussions at every ethnicity in the world over whether it should be at "X", "Xs", or "X people". — kwami (talk) 12:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As per Talk:Tlingit people and other areas where I bothered to reply to you, it was you who didn't deign to hold a centralized discussion before moving "thousands of articles" to suit yourself. I was criticized for not filing all these separately re the recent bathwater closures o the bulk RM, and now I'm being criticized for not having a centralized ciscussion when I DID. Get a grip on your weaseling, Kwami it's tiresome, as is having to clean up articles you've moved when on your drive-by namechange campaign and your anti-wikipedian glib comment about "nobody [does that]". No, not you, no indeed, I know this all too well.Skookum1 (talk) 18:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per Kwami, also I want to see reliable sources that establish that one usage is now more common or preferred over another - we can't simply take Skookum1s word for that, that is not how wikipedia works.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, gee we've been forcefed the notion that a language is as primary a topic as the people who speak it as "Kwami's word for it" or "Maunus' word for it"..... Wikipedia also does not work by a small group of editors crafting a guideline to advance an agenda at odds with various guidelines they seem to make a point of deliberately ignoring. "How the group self-identifies should be considered. If it's common in English it should be the article topic" from WP:ETHNICGROUP is 'how Wikipedia works'. Open minds help, I sure don't see it from NCLANG crowd. And re this particular change, why don't you yourself limit your googles to Canadian media/sources and "since 1990" or so. Chipewyan is an obsolete term very rarely heard nowadays......and I live in the country in question and listen to Canadian media including APTN and of course the CBC and, duh, read newspapers and magazines that aren't gathering dust on distant university bookshelves. All I'm hearing today are posts from your cabal ranting the same thing over and over NCLANG yada yada and "Skookum1's opinion is not relevant"....no buddy, the facts on the ground in Canada matter, as do the people's choice of how to refer to themselves even in Wikipedia, though it's been the pretense of your lot for a while that "we don't care what the people prefer to be called"..... Denesuline, however spelled, is how these people are referred to in the country that they live in, whether defined as the Northwest Territories/Alberta or Canada as a whole. "Chipewyan" is OBSOLETE. Why don't you guys get your noses out of the past and the parochial terminology of colonialist academic sources from the past and wake up and smell the bannock. We're not talking about museum objects on a shelf here, we're talking about a major component of the population of northern Canada where this name is the norm. Don't believe me? I can't recall just now what's in the first RM but I know Kayoty and I think another joined in; like me, he knows that Denesuline, however spelled, is the modern, acceptable form, which Chipewyan is not. Same with Dogrib/Tlicho and Slavey/Deh Cho|Sahtu..... the latter of those sets is what is modern English, not dog-eared academic English with no regard for cultural sensitivity or respect for these people. But you don't respect me as a person or as a wikipedian ("get a life" was a very unCIVIL bit of nastineness from an admin doncha think??), I guess, so why should I expect you to respect what a bunch of Injuns in the frozen vastness of the Great White North think they should be called? More and more I understand my native friends' cynicism about academics as an instrument of colonialism, linguistic or otherwise.Skookum1 (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • " we can't simply take Skookum1s word for that, that is not how wikipedia works " is very pointedly AGF..... yet I'm a long-time resident of Canada, familiar with aboriginal politics and culture at first hand, a long-time Wikipedian and long-time member of IPNA and WPCANADA and other groups, and you "can't take my word for it". What's your own word worth, Maunus? From the sorts of things you've said to me, not very much. Where are you from again? What knowledge of this people do you have other than about their language? Ever watch Canadian TV or read Canadian publications? From your attitude and and peremptory attitude on these names - "we can't take Skookum1's word for it [that Denesuline is the modern, preferred term" -
Why don't you try to constructively address the issues, instead of ranting and making accusations of cabals? Then we could finally have a decent discussion and work towards something. --JorisvS (talk) 18:13, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ranting? No, just laying out the details of the cabal's resistance to guidelines not of their liking. I'm the one who was deried as "irrational" and told "get a life" by these turkeys when I did try to constructively address these issues. More than once. Obviously there's an old axe to grind with Kwami, because of his conduct in resisting last year's RMs (which were on the same lines as this one, very exactly the same). WP:DUCK applies to this bunch - "the NCLANG cabal" - and this insistence here on rejecting Denesuline "because we can't take Skookum1's word for it, that's not how Wikipedia works" is just more patronizing, elitist bunk. Why should we take their word for it that "Chipewyan" is the most common term? Kwami never produced googles or fielded an RM on this when he moved it...IMO because he knew it wouldn't go through because of the prevalent modern usage in Canada which he clearly disdains (as with his little bait-and-switch attempt to vandalize the K'omoks title earlier...alright for him to move without discussion, but when I do it he tries to file a dab on the new title and create "FOO people/temp"..... the "rants" here are me laying out the barebones of the subtext and misconduct and lack of procedure....I'm not the problem. Denesuline is the modern usage, Chipewyan like Slavey and Dogrib is an obsolete exonym; not as obviously derisive in origin as the other two but still not preferred by the people themselves as in WP:ETHNICGROUP - and as is now standard in Canadian English, whether wiki-linguists like or understand that or not. Don't want to take my word for it? Search APTN, CBC, CTV and especially the Government of the Northwest Territories, where these people are major component of the polity and culture.....don't call this a rant, I'm just explaining to you some background here, including Kwami's habit of attacking an editor instead of the points raised; to avoid the points raised; which Maunus has done too in no uncertain anti-AGF terms.Skookum1 (talk) 18:26, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am convinced you act in good faith, and the reason I wont take your word for anything is that you have demonstrated copiously that you dont understand the basics of policies such as WP:V. Ie it is not lack of good faith, but rather that I consider you entirely lacking in competence. I understand you consider that to be elitist. I would reply that writing encyclopedias have always been an elitist project, because knowledge is not democratic. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:50, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Really, then why are RMs and CfDs decided by totting up "votes" including mistaken ones or ones that are just plain wrong (or, as with what happened on the first Squamish RM, were started by someone with obvious and clear bias against native names). Your group's imposition of a guideline you crafted yourselves without consulting anyone else is, indeed, anything but democratic. Oh but wikipedia's not a democracy, is it? So what is it, a club?Skookum1 (talk) 04:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
COMPETENCE?? Come again? I'm competent in Canadian indigenous matters and Canadian language usage, for one thing; but it's the incompetence of Kwami and Uysvdi that led to this matter, and last year's RMs, and the still-unresolved CfD at Squamish..... But once again, attacking the proponent instead of dealing with the issues presented is a recognizable tactic and I'm tired of being BAITed, which was what Kwami was called on re last year's RMs - in the course of defending his own incompetence. When are you going to start talking about Chipewyan/Denesuline, without referring only to NCL, or are you just going to keep on criticizing and patronizing me here??Skookum1 (talk) 04:29, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Cabal", "turkeys", "his conduct", "this bunch", "patronizing, elitist bunk". --JorisvS (talk) 18:31, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
given the turnout from the little club at NCL here, cabal is very valid. And yes, imposing academic/archaic names in lieu of modern self-identification is "patronizing, elitist bunk". As for "his conduct", Kwami's attempt to get around K'omoks back to "Comox people" ("people from the town of Comox" that means in Cdn English) included creating illicit temp-titles and an uncalled for DB placed on that title. His conduct on last year's RMs is a matter of record and he was dressed down for it. Maunus and Uysvdi both have been both insulting and condescending, as also here, and hostile to nearly anything I so; "You're kind and gracious as always" and "get a life" etc.....I try and act from common sense and my knowledge of things, and get personal attacks in return while being accused of them. Your own attempt to add "when possible" to the self-identification passage of NCL added last night by In ict oculi was another example of "moving the goalposts so as to win the game" and dishonest. I was invited to work on NCL, so rather than paraphrase the passage from NCET as In ict oculi has done, and in doing so left out the first two sentences which bear on this discussion, I quoted it wholesale; no doubt one of you will revert that as an undiscussed change even though it's a quote from another guideline, or you will do what Labbattblueboy has done and challenge ETHNICGROUP directly as "invalid" even though it was a lift from the Naming Conventions for Peoples. Do you people even own mirrors and have any capacity at all for self-criticism and admission of wrong or mistaken actions? What you did there is clearly AGF. And like all such discussions, including last year's RMs, resorting to attacking the proponent instead of dealing with the issues is all too typical.Skookum1 (talk) 04:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A "cabal" is a secret plot. A few people who happen to agree with each other and disagree with you is not a "cabal". That edit of mine was honest attempt to improve it and explained at the talk page. There hasn't been any response from you on the talk page and In ictu oculi actually thanked me for it. I'm only looking for a civilized discussion without such forceful words used ad hominem. That isn't at all unreasonable, is it? --JorisvS (talk) 20:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The primary naming of this people/language is Denesuline in Canada. The Athabaskan-speaking (non-Amerind) Chipewyan people/language is not useful, because the Algonquian-speaking (Amerind) Chippewa for Ojibwe people/language is "most most" common in USA (esp. oldest literature). --Kmoksy (talk) 18:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

From the University of Saskatchewan History of the Denesuliné (Dene) in Northern Saskatchewan comes the following quotation:

"Denesuliné (pronounced as Den-a-sooth-leh-na) or Dene of Northern Saskatchewan were once referred to as Chipewyan or Caribou Eaters (Ethen-eldeli or Et-en-eldili-dene) but they prefer their self-naming term, Denesuliné which means 'Human Beings.' Chipewyan, a term given to the Denesuliné by the Cree during the fur trade era means 'pointed toes.' Chipewyan is the term specific to Denesuliné who reside in the northern boreal forest while Dene or Athapaskan refers to all Dene in Canada."

..... Kayoty 21:19, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose Before getting too far into things, I have some serious questions whether WP:ETHNICGROUP is even valid. I see no demonstration that it's adoption was ever discussed, and there is certainly no RfC. That being said, The disparity in search results is so great that there is no way to support this move. I limited my search to sources from 2000 onwards as to eliminate sources that often less than kind things to say about aboriginals peoples in Canada. Google Books: Chipewyan -fort -wikipedia 13,000 hits[1], Denesuline -wikipedia 370 hits[2]. The Google ngram doesn't even pick up Denesuline[3]. Google scholar is no better. Denesuline 80 hits[4], Chipewyan -fort 1150 hits[5]. I am happy to give consideration to what a group refers themselves as but it has to at least be close to supersede WP:COMMONNAME, and here it's not even close.--Labattblueboy (talk) 23:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • That you would challenge ETHNICGROUP's validity is not surprising but disingenuous; the initial version of it including the passage in question was lifted from WP:Naming conventions (people) wholesale by Onceinawhile, saying "New article as proposed - text moved from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people))" on March 13 2012; or are you going to then also say that you think NCP is also not valid?? And Google Scholar is full of cites from (a) past times and (b) academics from other places who are unaware of the last twenty-thirty years of Canadian indigenous history and the reasons why native endonyms were created by the peoples in question, and how Canadian media etc have brought them into current use. Unless you limit your google scholar results to post-1990 and to Canada only, what someone publishing in the US or UK is very irrelevant to the modern on-the-ground reality.Skookum1 (talk) 04:07, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not trying to focus on WP:ETHNICGROUP but it was clearly not a wholesale lift. Portions like "Generally speaking, the article title should use the common English language term for an ethnic group" seems to have been omitted in the move ([6] vs [7]). I am stating that I question whether WP:ETHNICGROUP is an accepted guideline and is better classified as a proposed guideline as I can't find a discussion where it's creation was generally agreed to. It's not like it's a guideline that has been cited in past discussion, I've only found a single article for deletion discussion where in was expressly cited(Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of black fashion models). Discounting sources by geography is wholly inappropriate. When it comes right down to it reliable English sources demonstrate that the current name is somewhere between 14 and 35 times more common in contemporary sources.--Labattblueboy (talk) 05:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • As observed by someone else here, using foreign/US sources would mean that "Ojibwe should be Chippewa per your logic...that Nuu-chah-nulth should be Nootka, and Kwakwaka'wakw should be Kwakiutl, Kainai would be Blood people and so on. And re your plaint that ETHNICGROUP has only been used re one article (until now), that's not that guideline's fault, but as we have seen here and in other RMs refusal by the NCL crowd to admit to its existence; now you deny its validity even though it was created by consensus and was discussed on NCP and WPEG; and yes, that passage about most common in English being used needs amendment re self-identification....or we would see Sto:lo become Fraser River Indians and other reversions to archaic usages, some of them quite unpalatable. Canadian English usage applies to Canadian articles....very pointedly, which is also partly why St'at'imc, Ktunaxa, Nlaka'pamux, Secwepemc, Tsilhqot'in and Dakelh are back where they belong - not where google searches including other country-publications indicate they "should" be (supposedly). I reject the notion that you have just field that dominant results from (a) other countries and (b) bygone eras should outweigh Canadian English usages. Completely reject it as just being more typical wiki-elitism "Wiki knows best" about RS, even when the RS are out of date (Handbook of American Indians, Catholic Encyclopedia etc). Skookum1 (talk) 05:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Here is the same results looking at only sources since 2010. Google Books: Chipewyan -fort -wikipedia 3710 hits[8] Denesuline -wikipedia[9]. Google Scholar: Chipewyan -fort 386 hits[10] Denesuline 32 hits[11]. Still no less than a factor of 10 difference between them. I don't know of any policy wherein you can limit sources to just Canadian English. You can't discount an American source just because you don't like their spelling.--Labattblueboy (talk) 07:53, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Spelling??? No Chipewyan is not spelled anything like Denesuline; and discounting American sources on Canadian topics is a regular part of the drill; otherwise Inuit would be Eskimo and Fraser River would be Frazier River. Unless you're referring to Ojibwe/Chippewa in which case that'll be a hard-fought RM and Canadian/FN usages would be brought to the fore as they should also be respected here. If academics aren't keeping up on modern nomenclature, it's a sad comment on their field of study; that they don't even talk to the people they write about, in other words. And if we include UK usages in terms of FN/NA peoples, and probably also India as well, then Red Indians would replace Indigenous peoples of North America. That is not acceptable, nor is this name. You may discount the "validity" of WP:ETHNICGROUP because it hasn't passed RfC, but NCP where it was lifted from did, and what it says about respecting what peoples call themselves is much more enlightened and less blinkered on than NCLANG (until its amendment by In ict oculi last night, despite JorisV's attempt to add "when possible" to avoiding derogatory names; I removed that and quoted the whole passage, not just the derogatory-names sentence.Skookum1 (talk) 09:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names ("Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural."). There is also the associated guideline, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes), which says in part "How the group self-identifies should be considered. If their autonym is commonly used in English, it would be the best article title."
I just copied this remark from another move. "The idea that there can be no discussion unless at a central location to cover all languages and people is not necessary as there are already policies and guidelines to cover this. Also there has been opposition on Wikipedia to bulk nominations. It is quite obvious that some people and languages share, along with other possible targets, a common name that the only way to deal with them is to have them at "foo language" and "foo people". English is one of these that comes to mind. In this case the language and people use different names." CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 03:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. An identified people should be the primary topic of a term absent something remarkable standing in the way. bd2412 T 02:29, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose at least until a proper discussion can be held with the nominator. --JorisvS (talk) 13:14, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reply Per WP:AGF and WP:NPAand WP:CIVIL, you should withdraw that comment, which is demeaning and condescending, since I *am* here, as are others who see my point and the relevant guidelines. If all you can so is soft-pedal insults at the nominator and not address the "support" votes from others, it's clear that your opposition is NOT based in guidelines but in personal contempt for me; and discussions are supposed to be about topics and issues; not editors; Your vote should be disqualified on those grounds; I hear all kinds of NPA and AGF whines, but get NPA and AGF treatment all the time, especially from NCL fans. All five or so of them. Stop the axegrinding and discuss the issues, not WP:BAIT the proponent, or suggest he's not capable of "proper discussion".....it's you who declines to discuss this, and are making me thet issue, not the topic at hand, and are knee-jerk voting on a very personal and now targeted basis.Skookum1 (talk) 14:20, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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