Talk:Sodomy: Difference between revisions

Rewrite

I think the article needs restructuring. The emphasis on Sodomy should be modern day definitions and connotations, with a section on historical usage. The article currently reads like a religious discussion. On another talk page an editor suggested spawning off a new article called Christian views of anal sex which seems logical. The religious views of Sodomy should be only a small portion of this article. Atom (talk) 15:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the rationale for this article as written is dubious. There already exists an article on sodomy law and an article on anal sex, each of which is superior in quality to this one. The French article, except for its exclusive focus on anal sex, Sodomie would seem to me like an ideal template for this one to copy, yet the link to the French article is being repeatedly deleted from this one. The problem is not that the French article doesn't correspond to this one, but that this one is currently written as a limited overview of the cultural baggage which attaches to the word in certain limited western religious contexts. I am of the opinion that as it stands this article needs to be renamed, and an article broadly paralleling the French one in format, but broadened to include oral sex should use the title Sodomy. In the meantime I oppose deleting the link to the French article.

I couldn't agree more. As far as I am concerned, there should not be an article on Wikipedia called "Sodomy"; it lends validity to the vicious moral condemnation by Christian Fundamentalists and Arab Muslim extremists of sexual activity involving the anus, especially as enjoyed by gay men. The content of the article, particularly its strong indication that "sodomy" is an accurate, unbiased, and descriptive term, do nothing to redeem it. I will have to look through the French version more, but I trust your judgment that it is superior to this sorry mess.

Click here to see the French article in machine translation at google. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs) 16:22, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed; I mean the first page starts by effectively labely the act as unnatural; an obvious opinion unsupported by any science I have read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.119.222 (talk) 01:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

This article has a very strong biblical and religious influence. The bible is not an adequate reference for historic facts and definitions. This article should be modified promptly. This article is of no use for research and information purposes. ARBoughton (talk) 20:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The introductory definition seems extremely odd to me. I have never heard of bestiality generally or oral sex meaning the same thing as sodomy. This may have been so in the past, but as a modern definition it is sorely lacking. Sodomy these days is simply the insertion of a penis into an anus (I suppose an animal's anus would count) and that's it. Furthermore it doesn't matter if it is a male anus or a female anus or whether the people involved are married or not. I'd be very curious to see the definition of sodomy in a recently published edition of the Oxford Dictionary. The inference of a term does evolve over time. The word "queer" may appear in the dictionary in its original context, but it has an entirely different meaning to contemporary ears. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 10:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I feel it is important to insert the following text to show that the meaning has changed over time from its origional meaning.

The word sodomy acquired different meanings over time. Under the common law, sodomy consisted of anal intercourse. Traditionally courts and statutes referred to it as a "crime against nature" or as copulation "against the order of nature." In the United States, the term eventually encompassed oral sex as well as anal sex. The crime of sodomy was classified as a felony.

ref:http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Sodomy.aspx#1

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.239.207 (talk) 04:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I altered the lead to make it clear that the term originally only referred to anal sex, as seen with this edit (also fixed that edit; corrected a publisher field and made the publisher links work). Flyer22 (talk) 04:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Circular Citation of Wikipedia by Wikipedia

The first citation in this article, supporting the definition of sodomy as including anal sex, oral sex and 'bestiality is a reference to the Word IQ website. That website cites the wikipedia article on sodomy law as its source. The sodomy law article provides no reference. I am removing this as a source and tagging it. μηδείς (talk) 17:56, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Scare quotes

Why are there scare quotes in the first sentence?

'Sodomy is a term used in the law to describe the act of "unnatural" sex...' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.30.151 (talk) 21:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I suppose the reason is that any activity voluntarily undertaken by naturally occurring creatures in their natural environment is a natural activity. However the assertion that sodomy is "unnatural" is a common part of the rhetoric behind attempts to forbid it. It's unclear how to define "unnatural" so the assertion "sodomy is unnatural" is not obviously false, hence the scare quotes. TimothyFreeman (talk) 17:01, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Huh?

"especially between males or between male persons" This makes no sense, unless anal sex between two male animals would be considered sodomy, which seems ridiculous, what has that got to do with a town in the middle east?

This whole article could definitely do with a dispassionate re-writeAdagio67 (talk) 20:02, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 72.23.224.61, 24 September 2011

Please change "bible" to "Bible" in the second sentence of the article. The word, in this case, is a proper noun and should begin with a capital letter.

72.23.224.61 (talk) 22:39, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Done AdamCaputo (talk) 23:21, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Medieval attitudes

I was listening to an article on BBC radio 4 last week and the historian suggested that sodomy was not understood as simply a case of same-sex relations during the medieval period. Rather it was promoted as a concept by Peter Damian and was understood as unnatural sexual relations that did not result in procreation (hence Dante's depiction of sodomites in a sterile envionment in his Inferno). This article focusses on homosexuality a great deal however. Contaldo80 (talk) 12:40, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you remember the name of the programme? Are you sure it's not this one? NotFromUtrecht (talk) 13:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes it was - thanks! This article is rubbish. It needs a rewrite from start to finish. Are we to understand sodomy purely in religious terms? But where do we start? Contaldo80 (talk) 10:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I started by separating modern religious views from historical ones. The Hebrew Bible must not be presented in terms of modern religionist views but as a document of society in the Levant in antiquity. Modern religious views are of marginal interest, because they are just held privately, "sodomy" not being a criminal offense any longer, anyone is free to hold their own views and definitions. What this article must focus on is the historical period during which sodomy was a well-defined criminal offense. This basically covers the medieval and early modern period. It is the hallmark of an article ruined by religionists fighting anti-religionists that it goes on for unbearable lengths about the Hebrew Bible (of course without any sense of historical depth) and ignores the early modern era completely. At least we have a brief "18th century" section here, but what we need to do is give a coherent account of the changes in legislation throughout Europe during the 15th to 19th centuries: this is what the core of the article should focus on, snippets from the Old and New Testament merely provide the necessary background for this.

--dab (𒁳) 09:15, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request: change "was" to "were" in Legal Usage section

"was" should be "were" in "Laws prohibiting sodomy was seen frequently in past Jewish, Christian, and Islamic civilizations". TimothyFreeman (talk) 17:06, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 March 2012

Change : In The Book of Judges, 19-21, there is an account, similar in many ways, where a city is almost totally destroyed in punishment for a mob of its inhabitants raping a woman.) TO In the Book of Judges, 19-21, there is an account, similar in many ways, where Gibeah, a city of the Benjamin tribe, is destroyed by the other tribes of Israel in revenge for a mob of its inhabitants raping and killing a woman).

88.65.251.148 (talk) 11:20, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Done Thanks, Celestra (talk) 05:23, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Rremoved duplicate. See next post. Pyro121psycho (talk) 07:25, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 May 2012

Requesting to have the first sentence in the article edited.

As it currently stands, it singles out gay men and beastiality. The beastiality is correct to be pointed out, but it is not correct to single out gay men.

Currently the sentence reads: Sodomy (/ˈsɒdəmi/), refers to anal sex or other non-penile/vaginal copulation-like acts, especially between male persons or between a person and an animal.

The sentence should be read as follows: Sodomy (/ˈsɒdəmi/), refers to non-penile/vaginal copulation-like acts such as oral/anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.

This will give a much clearer depiction of what sodomy actually is without sounding like there is an agenda behind this article. My reference for this information is the dictionary. Pyro121psycho (talk) 09:26, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I think the current version phrasing is appropriate. It correctly indicates that while sodomy is not restricted to the subset of homosexual/bestiality acts, in common usage those are the acts typically all that gets referred to as sodomy. It is very rare to see sodomy used to label heterosexual activity, even it is technically applicable. Monty₈₄₅ 19:22, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I am myself a homosexual, and feel offended by this article for only the reasoning of the opening sentence. It is also for Wikipedia to be accurate. As you state that it is very rare for heterosexual acts to be labled as sodomy is highly inaccurate. It is just that it is a highly acceptable form of sodomy. Please make the changes to the opening sentence as it is a clearly set opinion and not a proven fact. You have not shown anything that actually backs your opinion. Pyro121psycho (talk) 13:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

 Done It's not a matter of opinion. Read the article about the history of the word. Nevertheless, as there is nothing actually vanadalistic about your sentence, I will do it for you (that's my policy with edit requests, something I just started doing a few minutes ago) - I expect it to be reverted though. Egg Centric 16:47, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Request for Rewrite for Christian views

Technically, the part of this section that notes "traditional interpretation sees the primary sin of Sodom as being homoerotic sexual acts" is incorrect as that it also views similar acts between men and women as also being a sin. Again, as stated above, I suspect that similar problems can be found with the other religious sections. Indeed, legally speaking, many countires (and states) view sodomy (normally associated with anal sex, though also oral sex) as illegal regardless of the biological sex of the participants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.15.55 (talk) 17:07, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Different meaning in german language: Germany, Switerzland and Austria

In german language the word sodomy means sex with animals and has nothing to do with sex between people of the same gender. 188.96.230.207 (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

That's not what sodomy means nowadays

Here is the page on the Oxford English Dictionary site [1].--Jcvamp (talk) 13:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Request for Rewrite for Islamic Views

As a muslim I find the information provided in the the Islamic view, very derogatory and way off the truth. There is no reference cited and no proof that young men look to have sexual relationship or sodomy with males younger than themselves and that people like anal penetration more in muslim socities because of women segregation. Although there are instances of this happening in some places, however it can not be generalized and be applicable to the entire muslim world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.86.142.250 (talk) 11:17, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Reference for the hospitality issue

I think it would be reasonable in the second paragraph of the "Hebrew Bible" section to replace

Some say the sinfulness of that, for the original writers of the Biblical account, might have consisted mainly in the violation of the obligations of hospitality.

with

Some suggest the sinfulness of that, for the original writers of the Biblical account, might have consisted mainly in the violation of the obligations of hospitality.

where the note is "<ref>Boswell, pp. 92–98</ref>" referring to a book already in the bibliography.

Scware (talk) 23:34, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Between the middle ages and the eighteenth century

It is bizarre that there isn't a section between medieval and the eighteenth-century. I am proposing a section that deals with Renaissance sodomy, charting the transition from a crime against god to a crime against the person. This would link with the reformation and the devalued significance of church courts. This has been widely researched by hundreds of respected scholars. Also there needs to be more on cultural representations of sodomy, e.g. in Shakespeare and Christopher Marlowe, for example. 26th Sept 2013. TheoryofSexuality (talk) 11:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Original definition of sodomy

The second source does not use the word only and is limited to talking about North American colonies - there are many other countres that use the English language. The first source uses the word "frequently" - there's a big difference between frequency and only. Pass a Method talk 20:28, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Note: I changed the heading of this section from "wp:synthesis" so that the heading is clearer as to what this section is about.

This is the edit Pass a Method is referring to. I added both sources when tweaking the lead, as documented in the #Rewrite section above. Both sources are referring to how the term sodomy originated and expanded; they are (at least the second source) quite clear, from what I see, that the term only referred to anal sex before being expanded to refer to oral sex and other non-procreative sexual activities. Though the second source does not state "only," it stresses that the term did not refer to any other sexual acts until it was expanded to include other non-procreative sexual activities. There are also several pages listed in the citation for the second source. I'm not sure where Pass a Method thinks that the term sodomy originated from, but it did not originate from any of these other countries Pass a Method may have in mind. Also in the #Rewrite section above, others address that the term sodomy has a much heavier emphasis on anal sex, even today (something I know from common discourse in addition to my studies on sexuality), and originally only referred to anal sex or at least sexual activity between two men (which seems to have most commonly been assumed to be anal sex between two men). A variety of sources, old and new, address this; for example this TheFreeDictionary.com source and this 1981 Psychology Press source. Because of this, I changed Pass a Method's edit that was meant to be truer to what the source states; perhaps I should have been truer to what that first source states. I can see what Pass a Method means by WP:Synthesis in that case. I may add different sources with regard to sodomy that make the "originally only referred to anal sex" matter clearer, but, then again, there has always been a bit of vagueness with regard to the term, even when a source states that it originally only referred to sex between two men; there is vagueness with regard to the "two men" aspect because "sex between two men" does not automatically equate to "anal sex between two men." Flyer22 (talk) 21:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Update: I added different sources for the first line, and changed "usually" to "commonly" for the part about the term sodomy originally being restricted to anal sex, as documented here and here. I still plan to look over more sources on the matter and determine whether or not I should be more strict in my wording, instead of using the word usually or commonly in this regard. That sodomy most often refers to anal sex even today should be addressed in the lead, though. Flyer22 (talk) 23:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Change title by deleting 'original meaning of' as that is not possible and the foremost problem is the page's definition and the telling of the diversity of meanings past and present.Ericglare (talk) 10:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Re "Sodomy (/ˈsɒdəmi/) is generally anal or oral sexual activity between people or sexual activity between a person and a non-human animal (bestiality), but may also include any non-procreative sexual activity.[1][2][3] " Most people would be utterly astounded to hear sodomy doesn't equate with anal intercourse and that oral sex alone or bestiality alone could be called sodomy (I'm an Aussie sexual health advocate). The page acknowledges ambiguity and interpretation but this first sentence is a complete fail of that and the word 'generally'. Importantly there is next to no text on the page that supports the claimed idea that non-anal sex alone has ever been a common or general meaning of sodomy. This page fails to distinguish meanings from current dictionaries, law text definitions and that from ancient texts and that makes it confusing and unreliable. Of the 3 books used as references, one isn't accessible (ref 1 = useless) and the other two (ref 2 & 3) are written from an USA perspective and then they only claimed this varied definition without any supporting detail or references. Reference 3 actually claims the definition of "any sexual act that does not result in procreation" (presumably generally rather than specifically) so that is a rather poor citation of the meaning described here. Ericglare (talk) 10:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Ericglare (talk · contribs), I reverted your change to this section's title, and moved your first post down ahead of your second post, since you did not start this section. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Layout and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing comments. Your comment fits fine in this section without changing its heading. As for the vast majority of people associating sodomy with anal sex, do you have a WP:Reliable source for that? While I think that is true, and, as noted above, edited the lead to emphasize the anal sex aspect, it also refers to "oral sexual activity between people or sexual activity between a person and a non-human animal (bestiality), but may also include any non-procreative sexual activity." Just about any modern dictionary source will show that to be the case, and so do plenty of legal sources. But it's better not to use dictionary sources, and so I cited scholarly sources. The three scholarly sources I used are WP:Reliable sources (read that page about what a reliable source is and isn't to Wikipedia). And as for accessing sources, see WP:SOURCEACCESS. The lead is for summarizing the article, including its definitions, per WP:Lead. The type of distinguishing you want can be addressed, and is already partly addressed, in the Terminology section of the article. We can change that section title to Definitions. Flyer22 (talk) 16:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, unless we are talking about sperm somehow being transported to the vagina during a sexual act that does not involve penile-vaginal penetration, I don't see how any sexual activity that is not penile-vaginal penetration will lead to procreation; in other words, I think that the phrasings "any non-procreative sexual activity" and "any sexual act that does not result in procreation" are clear. I don't believe that anyone is going to assume that we mean, for example, sperm leaking from the anus to the vagina during anal sex, or a person's fingers having sperm on them and being moved to the vagina. But it would be clearer to state "any sexual activity that does not involve penile-vaginal penetration." Flyer22 (talk) 21:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

For the first source, this Google Books link shows you the pages (three) that the word sodomy is addressed on. And the third source is addressing the topic of a worldwide perspective on sodomy, and laws regarding it throughout history. Flyer22 (talk) 21:40, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit please: 'no specific sin is given as reason'

Please edit to show no specific sin is given in Genesis as reason. Jude 7 clearly states the reason: ″giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange (other) flesh.″ Let'sthinkaboutit (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at God and Sex or, even better, read the book. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Sodomy is not just a legal term in the U.S. Please edit

"In those languages, the term is also often current vernacular (not just legal, unlike in other cultures) and a formal way of referring to any practice of anal penetration"

In English, at least in the U.S., sodomy is not just a legal term. It is part of our normal vocabulary and generally (in my experience, always) refers merely to anal sex. In fact, I did not even know until reading this article that there are some other cultures for which sodomy generally includes other acts as well.

Why do we not have an edit page for the article? At least, it does not show up for me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.58.163.89 (talk) 03:10, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

The article is WP:Semi-protected because it is very much prone to WP:Vandalism and other unconstructive edits. Flyer22 (talk) 03:31, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

2.1 Hospitality.

2.1 Hebrew Bible The connection between Sodom and homosexuality is derived from the depicted attempt of a mob of city people to rape Lot's male guests. Some suggest the sinfulness of that, for the original writers of the Biblical account, might have consisted mainly in the violation of the obligations of hospitality.[13] This view does not take into account that before the "guests" arrived in the city Genesis 18:v17 and any "hospitality" could have been rendered, its destruction was already planned.

COMMENT: The highlighted part is weird.

The sinning in Sodom was happening before the episode with the attempted rape of the two angels. So whatever or not it was for attempting to rape the male angels or the lack of hospitality, the sinning was already happening before the guests arrived, and it makes no point referencing that the destruction of the city was already planned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.73.79.55 (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2014 (UTC)