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|'''Please read before starting'''
First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's Intelligent Design article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic.


{| class="wikitable" style="background-color:#FAEBD7;"
[[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|Newcomers]] to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a ''[[faux pas]]''. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid [[Wikipedia:Avoiding_common_mistakes|here]].
| '''A few important notes:'''


Below is a visual metaphorical model of my idea of a process of perception as described in my book, ''The Evolution of Perception & the Cosmology of Substance.'' This model (and the theory in my book) explains what is known in western philosophy as "the primary/secondary quality distinction." It also gives an account for experience that is missing from contemporary western models of reality based on the corpuscular theory of reality that is holding sway in western philosophy at the moment. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it entails a view that we are all fundamentally of one cloth metaphysically, a view which, in my opinion, has powerful ethical implications.'''
A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents ID in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of ID is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's '''Neutral Point of View''' policy ([[WP:NPOV]]). The sections of the [[WP:NPOV]] that apply directly to this article are:
*'''[[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience|NPOV: Pseudoscience]]'''
*'''[[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight|NPOV: Undue weight]]'''
*'''[[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Making_necessary_assumptions|NPOV: Making necessary assumptions]]'''
*'''[[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Giving_.22equal_validity.22|NPOV: Giving "equal validity"]].'''
The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the [[Wikipedia:POV fork|Content forking]] guidelines.


It may help to understand that my background is in cinema and philosophy. I have been a projectionist, a camera assistant, have a degree from U.S.C. film school and a masters in philosophy. Thus it should be little surprise that I adopt a cinematic metaphor to explain a philosophical theory of perception. See my [[User:Cott12/sig|images]] page for a concise visual recapitulation of the idea.
These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research ([[WP:NOR]]) and Cite Your Sources ([[WP:CITE]]).


Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks ([[WP:NPA]]) and to abide by consensus ([[WP:CON]]).

This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the ''article itself'' and '''not''' the inherent worth of Intelligent Design. See [[WP:NOT]]. If you wish to discuss or debate the ''validity'' of intelligent design or promote intelligent design please do so at [http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins talk.origins]. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.
|}
|}
.
---------------------------
==Archives==
<div style="font-size: 90%">
*[[/Archive1]] (2002-2003) &ndash;
*[[/Archive2]] (2003)
*[[/Archive3]] (Jan-Sep 2004, 53kb - Are oppositions/criticisms of ID relevant?)
*[[/Falsification]] (Aug-Oct 2004, 46kb - Is ID theory falsifiable?)
*[[/Archive4]] (Sep-Nov 2004, 42kb - Overwhelming majority: POV? What does "scientific" mean?)
*[[/Archive5]] (Nov-Dec 2004) &ndash; [[/Archive6]] (Dec 2004-early Jan 2005)
*[[/Archive8]] (Jan-April 2005) &ndash; [[/Archive9]] (April-May 2005)
*[[/Archive_10|/Archive10]] (Early - Mid June 2005 - Structured debate; the Pryamid analogy; Article Splits)
*[[/Archive 11]] - [[/Archive 12]] &ndash; [[/Archive_13]]
*[[/Archive_14]] (Mid-August/Mid-Sept 2005 - ID as creationism; ID proponent's religious agenda; ID as scientific hypothesis)
*[[/Archive_15]] (Mid-Sept/Early-Oct 2005 - Computer simulations & irreducible complexity, Criticisms of criticism, Footnote misnumbering, NPOV)
*[[/Archive 16]] (Mid-Oct 2005)
*[[/Archive 17]] (Mid to late-Oct 2005 - Mainly involving users from uncommondescent.com and admins)
*[[/Archive 18]] (Late Oct 2005 to early Nov 2005)
*[[/Archive 19]] (early Nov to Mid Nov 2005)
*[[/Archive 20]] (Mid Nov 2005) Tisthammer's and ant's objections
*[[/Archive 21]] (November 2005) Enormous bulk of text.
*[[/Archive 21A]] (30 November - 3 December 2005) various proposals, peer review.
*[[/Archive 22]] (Early December) Mostly chatter concerning the current pool of editors.
*[[/Archive23]] Mid December
*[[/Archive24]] (Late December) Two major re-orgs and the Kitzmiller decision.
*[[/Archive25]] Marshills NPOV objections
*[[/Archive26]] Reintroduction of Vast discussion
*[[/Archive27]]
*[[/Archive28]]
*[[/Archive29]]
</div>


===Points that have already been discussed===
<div style="font-size: 90%">
:The following ideas were discussed. Please read the archives before bringing up any of these points again:
# '''Is ID a theory?'''
#:[[/Archive2#Fact and Theory]]
#:[[/Archive3#Does ID really qualify as a Theory?]]
# '''Is ID/evolution falsifiable?'''
#:[[/Falsification]]
#:[[/Archive 16#Random subheading: falsifiability]]
#:[[/Archive 18#Bad philosophy of science (ID is allegedly not empirically testable, falsifiable etc.)]]
# '''Is the article too littered with critique, as opposed to, for example, the evolution article?'''
#:[[/Archive3#Criticism that the Intelligent design page does not give citations to support ID opponents' generalizations]]
#:[[/Archive3#What ID's Opponents Say; is it really relevant?]]
#:[[/Archive9#Bias?]]
#:[[/Archive9#Various arguments to subvert criticism]]
#:[[/Archive 10#Critics claim ...]]
#:[[/Archive 21#Anti-ID bias]]
#:[[/Archive 16#Apparent partial violation NPOV policy]]
#:[[/Archive 15#Why are there criticizms]]
#:[[/Archive 14#Critics of ID vs. Proponents]]
# '''Isn't ID no more debatable than evolution?'''
#:[[/Archive2#Argument Zone]]
#:[[/Archive 16#The debatability of ID and evolution]]
# '''Isn't ID actually creationism by definition, as it posits a creator?'''
#:[[/Archive6#ID in relation to Bible-based creationism]]
#:[[/Archive 11#What makes ID different than creationism]]
#:[[/Archive 11#Moving ID out of the "creationism" catagory]]
#:[[/Archive 12#Shouldn't this page be merged with creationism?]]
#:[[/Archive 16#ID not Creationism?]]
# '''Are all ID proponents really [[theist]]s?'''
#:[[/Archive 14#ID proponents who are not theists]]
#:[[/Archive 18#A possible atheist/agnostic intelligent design advocate?]]
# '''Are there any peer-reviewed papers about ID?'''
#:[[/Archive3#scientific peer review]]
#:[[/Archive 11#Peer-reviewed stuff of ID (netcody)]]
# '''Is ID really not science?'''
#:[[/Archive4#...who include the overwhelming majority of the scientific community...]]
#:[[/Archive4#Meaning of "scientific"]]
#:[[/Archive4#Why sacrifice truth]]
#:[[/Archive 10#Rejection of ID by the scientific community section redundant]]
#:[[/Archive 14#Intelligent design is Theology, not Science]]
#:[[/Archive 13#Philosophy in the introduction]]
#:[[/Archive 13#The article needs to point to a reference that explains more clearly WHY ID is not a theory|/Archive 13#WHY ID is not a theory]]
#:[[/Archive 18#Bad philosophy of science (ID is allegedly not empirically testable, falsifiable etc.)]]
#:[[Talk:Intelligent_design/Archive_21#The_.E2.80.9Cfundamental_assumption.E2.80.9D_of_ID|/Archive 21#The "fundamental assumption" of ID]]
#:[[/Archive 21A#Peer-reviewed articles]]
#:[[/Archive27#Figured out the problem]]
# '''Is ID really not internally consistent?;'''
#:[[/Archive27#Distingushing Philosophical ID (TE) from the DI's Pseudo-Scientific ID]]
#:[[/Archive27#The many names of ID?]]
#:[[/Archive27#Removed section by User:Tznkai]]
#:[[/Archive27#Pre- & post- Kitzmiller, proponents seek to redefine ID]]
#:[[/Archive27#Defining ID]]
#:[[/Archive27#Figured out the problem]]
#:[[/Archive27#"Intelligent evolution"]]
#:[[/Archive 14#ID on the O'Reilly Factor]]
# '''Is the article too long?'''
#:[[/Archive6#Article Size]]
#:[[/Archive 13#notes]]
#:[[/Archive 13#The Article Is Too Long]]
#'''Does the article contain original research that inaccurately represents minority views?'''
#:[[/Archive_20#Original_research_and_inaccurrate.2Finadequate_representation_of_the_minority_View|/Archive_20#inadequate_representation_of_the_minority_View]]
#:[[Talk:Intelligent_design/Archive_21#The_.E2.80.9Cfundamental_assumption.E2.80.9D_of_ID|/Archive 21#The "fundamental assumption" of ID]]
#'''Is the intelligent designer necessarily irreducibly complex? Is a designer needed for irreducibly complex objects?'''
#:[[/Archive6#Irreducibly complex intelligent designer]]
#:[[/Archive 20#Settling_Tisthammerw.27s_points.2C_one_at_a_time]]
#:[[Talk:Intelligent_design/Archive_21#The_.E2.80.9Cfundamental_assumption.E2.80.9D_of_ID|/Archive 21#The "fundamental assumption" of ID]]
#:[[/Archive 21A#Irreducibly complex]]
#:[[/Archive 21A#Irreducible complexity of elementary particles]]
#:[[/Archive 21A#Repeated objections and ignoring of consensus]]
#:[[/Archive 21A#Suggested compromise]]
#:[[/Archive 21A#Resolution to Wade's & Ant's objections (hopefully)]]
#'''Discussion regarding the Introduction:'''
#:[[/Archive 21#Intro]] (Rare instance of unanimity)
#:[[/Archive_21#Introduction]] (Tony Sidaway suggests)
#'''Is this article is unlike others on Wikipedia?'''
#:[[/Archive_22#Why is Wiki Violating its own POV rule]]
#:[[/Archive_22#Call for new editors]]
#:[[/Archive_22]]
#:[[/Archive23]]
#:[[/Archive24]]
#'''Is this article NPOV?'''
#:[[/Archive2#NPOV]]
#:[[/Archive25]]
#'''Are terms such as 'scientific community' or 'neocreationist' vague concepts?'''
#:[[/Archive27#Support among scientists]]
#:[[/Archive27#"Neocreationist" social, not scientific, observation]]
#:[[/Archive26]]
#'''How should Darwin's impact be described?'''
#:[[/Archive27#Pre-Darwinian Ripostes]]
#'''Is the article really that bad?'''
#:[[/Archive27#WOW! This page is GOOOD!]]
#'''Peer Review and ID'''
#:[[/Archive29#peer_review?]]
#:[[/Archive28#Lack_of_peer_review]]
#:[[/Archive28#Peer_Review:_Reviewed]]
#'''Discovery Institute and ID proponents'''
#:[[/Archive29#Are_all_leading_ID_proponents_affiliated_with_Discovery_Institute?]]
</div>


==A Western Model of Advaita Vedanta==
== Notes to editors ==
#This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'; see [[Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Theory]].
#Although at times heated, the debates contained here are meant to improve the Intelligent Design article. Reasoned, civil discourse is the best means to make an opinion heard. Rude behavior not only distracts from the subject(s) at hand, but tends to make people deride or ignore what was said.
#Please use [[WP:ES|edit summaries]].


''seeing through, and seeing as''
===Quotations marks and footnotes===


#Before commenting on any part of the article, please make sure it is not clearly a direct quote. Quotes are indicated by quotation marks and a footnote. We cannot, no matter how much the language or the meaning of the quote might rile someone, change the quote.


Think of perception as light. Call it "the light of consciousness." This light is all that is.
== Bogus popups revert ==
Could someone explain to me the purpose of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=58303842&oldid=58301183 this revert] of a copyedit I worked hard on 10 days ago? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 07:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


If we want to speak of God (some have a problem with this) we would say that God is this light—the light of consciousness. This light doesn't have consciousness. It <i>is</i> consciousness. It doesn't have imagination. It <i>is</i> imagination.
:Ok, Lets go step by step.


What but imagination can imagine? What but consciousness can be conscious? What but perception can perceive? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.
:# You removed wikilinks to universe and life. No defense there on my part I guess it is a matter of taste. Looking at it again there are plenty of wikilinks so deleting irrelevant wikilinks does no harm. My fault.
:# you replaced [Argument from design|intelligent cause] by [intelligent designer|intelligent cause] which in my opinion is not a good change. Intelligent cause here refers to the more broad nature of the intelligent cause such as the argument from design rather than the especific agent that does it.
:#You added evolution. IDers claim that ID is an alternative to evolution because they define evolution to include origin of life when in reality it does not. By using correct definition of evolution it is clear that ID really only challenges other origin of life theories.
:#Why remove "not as a valid [[scientific theory]] but " which is more descriptive?
:#experiment link. My fault you are right there.
:#Establishment Clause of the First Amendment link. I argue here that some people would like to follow the link to the [[Establishment Clause of the First Amendment]] while other will like to go directly to the [[First Amendment to the United States Constitution]] or for that matter to both. For example I am Spanish and my knowledge of the US Constitution is not that good. So I get a better undertanding of the issue by reading both articles and I guess other users will feel the same.
:#Intelligent design's to The. Small change that to me looks more encyclopedic.
:#"signs of intelligence" is redundant as a paragraph above already uses the term. So it is better to refer to "sign" alone IMHO.
:#the rest of the changes wich I believe are a couple of corrections in spelling and wikilinks where reverted due to unattentiveness for my part. Sorry.


Now use this analogy. God imagines ways of seeing, states of consciousness. Liken these 'ways of seeing' to lenses. God imagines lenses, and through these imagined lenses sees. But what does he see? What is the object of his perception? Light. Thus God is both projector and camera—subject and object. He sees nothing but himself through his imagined lenses. He is both what he sees (world) and what he does not see (the witness). He is both what he takes himself to be (body) and beyond what he takes himself to be. There is nothing that God (light of consciousness) is not.
:I hope this explains my revert.--[[User:LexCorp|LexCorp]] 12:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


When God looks through his lens (camera) he sees only the light that he projects. And even the lenses through which the world is formed and through which God is informed are nothing but figments of his imagination, thus not divided from himself.
:# Yes, links to such broad articles are not useful here, at least in the very beginning of the article. It makes the first sentence too link-crowded, thus attracting the eye's attention away from genuinely vital links on specifically relevant topics.
:# You are incorrect in assuming that <nowiki>[[argument from design|intelligent cause]] is preferable to [[intelligent designer|intelligent cause]]</nowiki> for two reasons. First, most obviously, [[argument from design]] is just a redirect to [[teleological argument]], and there's no reason to link to a redirect here rather than the article itself. Second, most importantly, it is misleading to link to a tangentially-related subject matter when clearly what's actually being discussed in the sentence in question is not the "argument from design", but the intelligence that caused the design: the intelligent cause/[[intelligent designer]]. Remember that one of the most important principles in wikilinking is the "principle of least surprise": we should always avoid linking to an article that will confuse or surprise users who click on the sentence in question, and without a doubt that applies to a link to [[teleological argument]] from the phrase "[[intelligent cause]]", since anyone clicking a link would expect information about the ''cause itself'' (and the article for ''that'' is at [[intelligent designer]]), not about a group of arguments that are closely ''related'' to intelligent design in general.
:# That is your personal belief. I agree with it, but treating it as fact is inappropriate when 100% of all intelligent designers treat their belief system as a dispute over ''evolution'', not over the [[origin of life]]. Misrepresenting what they themselves focus on doing (which is challenging evolution, even if they're going ''about'' it the wrong way by focusing on the related, but distinct, topic of the origin of life) is not remotely useful for helping people understand what the intelligent design movement actually beliefs and focuses on.
:# Please reread the entire lead paragraph, both your version and mine. I spent over and hour reading over both to carefully check for errors and redundancies in the overall flow of the paragraph. You apparently haven't noticed that the word "theory" is used ''five'' times in the intro in your version, and linked to twice&mdash;and, even worse, the word "scientific" is used ''twelve'' times in the intro alone, including in several places where it's not necessary, and ''twice'' in the sentence in question ("scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory")&mdash;that's just plain bad prose, and there's no other way of putting it. The reason that I removed that particular line is simply because it was 100% unnecessary: it was fluff, it didn't clarify anything that was unclear and just added unnecessarily wasted time and energy between the beginning and end of the sentence in question. Within that paragraph, we had already made the point that "An overwhelming majority of the [[scientific community]] views intelligent design as [[pseudoscience]]"; to go on about scientific theories, which had already been touched on in the first paragraph, would be entirely redundant.
:# Yep. I checked every single link in the lead to ensure that it went to a real article (rather than a redirect), and replaced it with one where it didn't. Time-consuming, but worth it.
:# I don't really care. Link to those articles however you prefer. I was simply linking to a more accurate title for the specific article in question ([[Establishment Clause of the First Amendment]], not just [[Establishment Clause]]); it doesn't make a significant difference.
:# I'm afraid that you are 100%, absolutely incorrect here. Please reread the sentences in question. "The" doesn't make the statement "more encyclopedic" here, it only makes it more ''ambiguous''. It is also poor grammar, based on the context (start of a pargraph and new topic, and no in-sentence clues as to what "The" refers to, making it even worse than if you'd just used "Their").
:# I'm fine with that. Merely trying to avoid ambiguity. But in this case, unlike the previous one, the referent is made clear, and there ''is'' a valid reason not to repeat the word (whereas there is no reason not to repeat "intelligent design" in the aforementioned paragraph).
:# So do I have to redo them all? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 12:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
:##I'd suggest, on the topic of origin of life, that a NPOV rewrite could resolve this. Ie., we can note that the official definition of what the theory of evolution is does not include an origin theory, and we can also note that however many ID proponents seem to feel evolution does speak to the question of origins. Ie., as in all POV disputes, we simply note what each side says/believes. Then the readers can realize for themselves that many IDer's don't even know exactly what they're discussing, without our having to point it out, which would be crossing the line. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 02:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
:::*I agree that that would be very useful information to have, and have well-referenced, in the article. However, I still think that ''for the lead'', which should be as short and concise as possible, simply stating "evolution and the origin of life" is completely sufficient and satisfactory and non-POVed in its vagueness, and more informative and concise than the alternatives. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 11:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


What really exists in the absolute and eternal sense is the light. The percept (the image that God projects and sees) is illusion—an ephemeral figment of God's imagination. Yet this illusion is not separate from God, nor independent of him. Just as a person's dream is not really separate from the dreamer nor independent of the dreamer. There is nothing but the light. Thus illusion and reality both are of God. God is too infinite to be displaced by that which he creates out of himself, whether real or unreal.
:I cannot engage in discussions now due to real life issues. So feel free to make any changes.--[[User:LexCorp|LexCorp]] 11:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


==Research Program==
The following material listed in "Peer Review" appears to cover research. Propose moving this to after "Peer review" with its own new subheading "Research Program" [[User:DLH|DLH]] 01:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


::''He who knows everything displaces nothing.'' — [[Meher Baba]]
The debate over whether intelligent design produces new research, as any scientific field must, and has legitimately attempted to publish this research, is extremely heated. Both critics and advocates point to numerous examples to make their case. For instance, the Templeton Foundation, a former funder of the Discovery Institute and a major supporter of projects seeking to reconcile science and religion, says that they asked intelligent design proponents to submit proposals for actual research, but none were ever submitted. Charles L. Harper Jr., foundation vice president, said that "From the point of view of rigor and intellectual seriousness, the intelligent design people don't come out very well in our world of scientific review."[71] At the Kitzmiller trial the judge found that intelligent design features no scientific research or testing.


::We hear an awful lot about peer review and the so called conspiracy to keep ID out of legitimate science journals. What articles have Dembski, Behe, et al submitted to legitimate, peer reviewed science journals that have been rejected? Has Dembski/et al ever said "I submitted X to J only to have it rejected? I know Dembski has fgone on record saying he has no desire to submit anything for peer review and I know Behe said under oath that doing any actual testing of his own theories would not be fruitful, so he has never induleged in any actual testing of ID theory. Have the IDists EVER done any testing or made any attempt to submit their ID related works to a legitimate, peer reviewed science journal? [[User:Mr Christopher|Mr Christopher]] 17:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


Now forget the camera for a second and consider only the projector. For we are going to discuss the creation of things perceived.
:::How could one test for the supernatural? [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Simple answer: no scientist would. See [[methodological naturalism]]. Science explicitly denies the possibility of supernatural causes for natural phenomena. If a person advocates a theory involving supernatural forces, fine, good for them. But it is by definition not scientific. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 22:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


The projector has lenses. They are nothing but light (God's imagination) but through these lenses the world forms in the light (as appearances). God sees the light he projects from himself. How is this?
:Peer review is what is being discussed; research, such as it is, is what gets reviewed in peer review. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 01:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


To understand this we must understand the lenses and what they form in the the world of appearances.
==External Links==
Restored two major links to ID Perspectives deleted by ScienceApologist alleging spam.
*[http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Main_Page Research Intelligent Design Wiki]
*[http://www.idthefuture.com ID The Future]
Research Intelligent Design is a Wiki systematically linking to ID materials.
ID The Future is a web site/blog for major proponents of ID. [[User:DLH|DLH]] 11:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


The very first lens that forms in God's imagination is time. And after it comes space. And through space and time we have the potential for the distinctions of before-and-after, backward-and-forward. But the source of the light (the spectator, i.e. God) is really located back with the projector where the light source is. The source or spectator is not really "in" time or space. Thus if we were to ask questions such as, "Which direction is the light moving?" or "Is the light moving from the projector or toward it?" we would be asking confused questions—questions that only make sense when looking through the lenses of time and space. For time and space (lenses in the imagination of God) do not really ever materialize except in appearance. So the light (spectator, i.e. God) never really 'enters' into the world of space and time, for they are merely imagined... just as the dreamer never really 'enters' his dream. But from the point of view of the mind of God that is immersed in his illusion (in the form of man or a woman) this is a very reasonable question to ask. Thus for our minds we must postulate and imagine God as both projector and camera, for we must imagine the light as moving in both directions.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith Wikipedia:Assume good faith] "To assume good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. As we allow anyone to edit, it follows that we assume that most people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it. . . . So, when you can reasonably assume that something is a well-intentioned error, correct it without just reverting it or labeling it as vandalism. When you disagree with someone, remember that they probably believe that they are helping the project."


In reality the whole matter of direction is a phantom. But we are ensconced in the dimensions that arise in the percept that result from these lenses. We cannot conceive any other way. So we must say the direction is both, yet in reality it is beyond both, for God in reality precedes the distinction.
This Wikipedia site allows very little material by ID proponents. The link to [http://www.reseachintelligentdesign.org Research Intelligent Design] provided to direct users to a wiki with a mission to give reference material on Intelligent Design. This is an effort to give some semblance of NPOV to this page.[[User:DLH|DLH]] 16:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


That is a hard idea to get your mind around. That is a limitation of the mind born of its lenses and not the concept itself. The concept reflects truth. The cloud in our understanding is our own cloud.
ScienceApologist deleted links alleging spam without discussion. This appears to violate Wiki Policy of "Assume Good Faith". I have provided further discussion deleting my previous description of ScienceApologist.[[User:DLH|DLH]] 16:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


Now we must use this analogy of the projector to see how the world forms, and especially to explain what is called in philosophy the distinction between the objective world (same for everyone, such as the mathematical formula of gravity) and the subjective world (affected slightly by the individual's interpretation and thus different for everyone, such as sense experience). This distinction is called in western philosophy the 'primary-secondary quality distinction.'
The major contributors for [http://www.idthefuture ID The Future] are [[Michael Behe]], [[William Dembski]], [[Guillermo Gonzalez]], [[Cornelius Hunter]], [[Steve Meyer]], [[Paul Nelson]], [[Jay Richards]], [[Jonathan Wells]], and [[Jonathan Witt]]. That appears to be as stellar a list of major ID proponents as will be found anywhere. These clearly represent the minority view on ID. [[User:DLH|DLH]] 16:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
:This article has 91 footnotes. Any statements made by these proponents which are germaine are cited in the footnotes section. The ID position is a minority position; adding spamlinks in some misguided effort to provide "balance" is actually undue weight towards a vansihly small minority position. You cite AGF yet all SA did was state in his summary why the additions were being reverted. Your accusation of vandalism is a different, and far more serious, matter. Step back and consider your actions; this is not the pot calling the kettle black but rather the pot calling the shiny new saucepan black. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 16:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
::I had already withdrawn my vandalism accusation. ScienceApologist claims it is "spam" without justification or discussion. You also reverted my edits without discussion. See Wiki Policy: "Reverting a good-faith edit may send the message that "I think your edit was no better than vandalism and doesn't deserve even the courtesy of an explanatory edit summary." It is a slap in the face to a good-faith editor. If you use the rollback feature for anything other than vandalism or for reverting yourself, be sure to leave an explanation on the article talk page, or on the talk page of the user whose edit(s) you reverted." Twelve reverts in a row suggest that no allowance at all is being given that I am attempting a "good-faith edit".
[[User:DLH|DLH]] 17:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
::Agree completely with KC. Undue weight is very clear on this. We no more need a "balance" of pro-ID links here than we need a "balance" of pro-Flat Earth links at [[Flat Earth]]. It would be a different story, IMO, at the article on ''[[Creationism]]'', because Creationism ''acknowledges that it is a religious belief''. Intelligent Design chooses to cast itself as science instead. What I keep trying to point out to DLH is that, by getting in the ring with science, it is therefore both valid and appropriate that ID be criticized from a scientific viewpoint. And, not surprisingly, the (vast) majority scientific viewpoint is that ID is a crock. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 17:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


We account for this difference with the order of the lenses. When we understand the sequence of the lenses, we see why we find this objective/subjective quality distinction.
::This page is supposedly to explain the minority position of "Intelligent Design." Yet it already lists 13 "Non-ID" (effectively anti-ID) to 6 ID links. Wiki policy is to clearly present BOTH the minority and majority positions. Considering the strong anti ID tone of this article, it is important to provide ID links where users can find complementary information and discussion. Just because you support the majority position does not justify reverting minority position links.[[User:DLH|DLH]] 18:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 
:Asked for page protection for this section to stop this edit war. Three reverts already today.[[User:DLH|DLH]] 18:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:Pd 5.jpg|600px]]
::Where's the beef?
::(Camera pans to host at center stage: Announcer, in exuberant voice: "It’s time to playyyy: 'What's my POV'", "Brought to you by the makers of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gene_gun&action=history Gene gun]")
::(Curtain opens: "And, behind Door Number One... "
::([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District&diff=prev&oldid=25201188]) ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District&diff=next&oldid=25201392]) ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Common_descent&diff=next&oldid=57525574]) ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_C._Sanford&diff=prev&oldid=59208696]) ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=prev&oldid=59207329]).
::It has been this way from the very first edit, hasn't it? This quest to impose a particular POV on these related subjects of the [[creation-evolution debate]] is the cause of these reverts. The three-revert rule ([[WP:3RR]]) applies only to sole editors, not multiple editors seeking to defend amply debated and well-considered consensus. .... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 18:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
:::There appear to be ''de facto'' coordinated effort to impose an anti-ID "majority" viewpoint and using multiple persons to get around the 3revert rule. I have had 14 reverts in a row. That does not appear to be allowing for ANY "good faith effort."[[User:DLH|DLH]] 19:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
::::How can an effort be ''de facto'' coordinated? If it's consciously coordinated, then it's coordinated. If it's not consciously coordinated, how is it coordinated at all? I would suggest that to find your error you need look no farther than the quote marks you placed around the word majority. ID is a scientific issue, and there is a clear scientific majority against it. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 19:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::I think the word DLH might hae been looking for was "consensus". As a side note, I find it rather humourous that a project that does not allow "weasel words" has such a wiggly and subjective policy as AGF, which is prone to abuse and at a certain level, primarily that of its implementation and invocation, is very much at odds with other policies. An editor makes a highly POV or inaccurate edit (usually in violation of [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]] or other policies), then when it is reverted cries "good faith, good faith, good faith!" without ever once considering the nature of the reverted edt or the simple fact that the editor doing the reverting ''was acting in good faith''.
:::::Also, I think DLH misses the the mark regarding the presentation of what is clearly a minority viewpoint, and suggest that he or she read [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NPOV#Undue_weight Undue weight]. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


I agree with DLH that those two links, particularly ID the Future, are significant and should be included. The idea that "Any statements made by these proponents which are germaine are cited in the footnotes section" seemed pretty far off the mark. Obviously, there is much more to the topic of ID than is included in this article. The point of a Wikipedia article is to distill the most important parts into a coherent, balanced story. The point of the external links is to allow readers to get further details, often from non-neutral and/or less notable points of view that don't quite make the article. While many of the links that people try to add are linkspam, I think these links are appropriate.--[[User:Ragesoss|ragesoss]] 18:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
::Look, I have no problem with the inclusion of these should a consensus develop on it. In fact, though, one of these is linkspam to a blog ([http://www.idthefuture.com ID The Future]) and should be excluded because it's a blog. The other is a rather interesting and increasingly well developed POV link (Joseph C. Campana's ID Wiki at [http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Main_Page Research Intelligent Design Wiki]). If it's the consensus that this second link should be included, I'll back it &ndash; either way is fine by me. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 20:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
:::I see Wiki pages on how to make cites, and not to have Blogs on Wiki. HOwever, I find no discussion about whether or not to link to major blogs. Anyone else have any directions to such policy?[[User:DLH|DLH]] 00:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Under [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links External Links] I found the following:
''Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard.''
I believe the following two apply and that [[http://www.IDtheFuture.org ID the Future]] fulfills these two well.
# What the article is about.
# Website is of particularly high standard.
What other comments?[[User:DLH|DLH]] 00:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
::::This article is '''not''' ''about'' the blog itself, nor does the blog meet the "Website is of particularly high standard" criterion. Campana's piece is something I need to think about before offering an opinion - at this point I'm neither in opposition to or supportive of its inclusion. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


The secret lies in the order of the lenses. Each lens forms the raw material for the next distinction. For example natural laws are merely variations on pure relations of time and space, and the body of a man (or animal) is merely variations of pure relations of natural laws.
A pro-ID blog run by Discovery Institute fellows will be notable enough to merit mention here, being that ID and the conflict around is largely a product of the Institute, so ID Future is fine to include. But ResearchID.org, a privately-run pro-ID wiki, is largely the product of one individual, Joseph Campanga, a former Wikipedia editor ({{User|JosephCCampana}}). ResearchID.org contains his summarizations or interpretations of leading ID proponents arguments. It's not a prominent player on the ID stage, and so does not merit mention in the article; there are much more prominent and influentional websites that come before it. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 02:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


Study this picture. In it lies the key that unlocks the mystery of why the facts of reality were so hard to discover. Seeing the world through the distinction of time we use to say that there is time. And we cannot conceive of a world without it. This is because time is part of the fabric of our conception. We cannot discover the cause of our percept discursively then. It must be realized through deep introspection and imagination, postulated, and considered. This explains why it has been slow in coming and why western philosophy has moved in endless circles, chasing its own tail. Time, space, and natural laws, we thought, must be independent of perception since they are the same for every observer. They are independent of the individual person's perception, but not independent of perception itself—for they precede the rise of the sense of individuality. We have been mistakenly reading the effect of our experience into its cause. This error in thinking is called 'the historical fallacy' (as described by philosopher John Dewey).
===One less link?===
[[User:CloseEncounters]] seems to be determined to remove [http://www.discovery.org/csc/ Discovery Institute, Center for Science and Culture] and refer it to [http://www.discovery.org Discovery Institute] (Hub of the intelligent design movement): they're both the DI, but wearing different hats on different home pages. Other than alerting readers to CSC being DI, was there a reason for the two links? ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 18:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


<blockquote>Historical Fallacy: “A set of considerations which hold good only because a completed process is read into the content of the process which conditions this completed result." (John Dewey in <i>The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology, 1896</i>)</blockquote>
:To show the duplicitous nature of DI and ID. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 18:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


Now look at the picture below. It shows where in the sequence of the process of perception the primary and secondary qualities (and supervening worlds) emerge in the image.
:Yes, it appears CE and DLH are interested only in promoting ID, not contributing positively to the greater wikipedia project, so I'd expect that. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 01:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:I understand the Wikipedia community expects: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars 5 pillars policy] including --- Assume good faith from others. Be open, welcoming, and inclusive. Strive for accuracy, verifiability, and a neutral point of view. --- I am trying to help towards that. Thanks for the welcome.[[User:DLH|DLH]] 01:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


[[Image:Pd_6.jpg|600px]]
::You've promoted the ID POV to the exclusion of all others since you've arrived, so I shouldn't be surprised. Assume good faith is not a suicide pact. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 02:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Just trying to provide some NPOV balance. From the text and discussions there seem to be plenty of "Non-ID" advocates around. There is an ancient proverb: '''The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.''' {{bibleref|Proverbs|18:17}} Someone has to provide some [[peer review]] here to keep the presentation honest:)[[User:DLH|DLH]] 02:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


Note that the Real Witness of all of the percept (both the objective world and every individual's subjective impression) is all the while at the point of the projector. The Real Witness (God) never really enters into his percept, but merely evolves the impression that He does. Thus in this view we are all One. In India this is called ''advaita vedanta'', or literally unqualified "non-dualism," and in Sufism it is called ''wahdat-ul-shuhud'' (unity of witness) and ''wahdat-ul-wujood'' (unity of being).
:The discovery.org links were duplicate links; I consolidated the two. FeloniousMonk is deleting a legitimate link to a newly launched site, www.ReasearchID.org, the launch of which was announced at www.evolutionnews.org on June 24th. The site is "Currently collaborating on about 67 research applications of intelligent design." This is an <i>exceptional</i> new resource, and it is completely wrong to censor it from readers interested in the development of ID; there is no good reason for FeloniousMonk's deletion. Secondly, FeloniousMonk deleted Michael Behe's well-written and published response to the Kitzmiller decision while permitting a non-scientist's response (Kitzmiller: An Intelligent Ruling On Intelligent Design), not to mention a link to the anti-ID opinion of Judge Jones. In other words, FeloniousMonk allows ID opponents to respond to the ruling, but does not allow ID supporters to respond to the ruling. This is a blatant double standard that should not be tolerated on Wikipedia, which purports to strive for neutral treatment.
--[[User:CloseEncounters|CloseEncounters]] 02:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


[[Image:Model arrows.gif|600px]]
::If you're interested in genuinely improving the article and not promoting a particular viewpoint you'd be fixing the CSC link instead of deleting it.


I have drawn light lines (depicted in gold in the chart immediately above) to show that the same light is passing through every lens, even each human body. And thus the experience of distinction of 'selves' is actually an illusion. This psychological impression of a divided self is called the "jiva" in ''advaita vedanta.''
::ID Future is a notable and prominent site and should be included. But as I said above, ResearchID.org is a private pro-ID wiki run by one individual, Joseph Campanga, a former Wikipedia editor ({{User|JosephCCampana}}). It only contains his summarizations or interpretations of leading ID proponents arguments. It's not notable enough to merit mention here.


In this view there is only perception, an evolution of perception, in the imagination of God. God (light of consciousness) is the only perceiver and all that God ever perceives is himself (light). But in reality the percept that God perceives is his own invented illusion which he takes himself to be part of as man. When God (as man) realizes his real nature, he does not see light so much as becomes light and conscious of his true identity as light. This is called in mysticism, "God Realization," and in ''advaita vedanta'' "mukti."
::You really need to stop edit warring here, you've already violated 3RR 12 times in the last 24 hours and will be blocked if you continue. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 02:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


[[Image:Pd_3.jpg|600px]]
:::That is a poor categorization from a superficial look at the site. ResearchIntelligentDesign.org is a Wiki for the ID community to collect ID materials and links (without being continually deleted by the likes of FelloniusMonk). This edit war interaction shows all the more why it is an important link to include.[[User:DLH|DLH]] 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


What's worth recognizing from this illustration is the notion that each person is seeing the same world (built in the light that emits from the projector but is formed by the earlier lenses), but sees it slightly different (according to their own individual psychology and biology). Realize too that their psychology and biology that they are using as a medium of their perception is itself an outcome of the lenses (such as natural laws) that precede them in the process that is forming the image world.
::::It's [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AJosephCCampana&diff=45972012&oldid=25607398 factual]. The burden of proof is on you to prove it's not. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 03:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


Each person sees a slightly different variation of the same world. The world thus, in a sense, is filtered to you through your eyes and brain. But the one receiving the impressions is God himself actually. The one who searches is God himself. The one who becomes confused is God himself. The one who realizes his true nature is God himself. This is called [[nondualism]], the view that there is no true separation in time because time never really existed at all. Thus division (world) is false, and unity (light) is real. But both are divine, both false and real, as both originate in God and remain in God.
FeloniousMonk Please review the very high frequency of your reverts and deletes. If the shoe fits wear it. [[User:DLH|DLH]] 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


<blockquote><i>From the point of view of one who has not gone beyond Maya, it seems that there are as many individuals as there are minds and bodies. In Truth there is one Universal Being behind the minds of seemingly different individuals, who through them has the experiences of duality. — Meher Baba</i></blockquote>
:I abide by [[WP:3RR]] and don't generally make a habit of reverting the same article 12 times in one day as does CE. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 03:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


<blockquote><i>It is truer to say that the world is in you than that you are in the world. — Meher Baba</i></blockquote>
::CloseEncounters - Please create a section if needed, and add your discussion on reasons for changes. Most of the present 'editors' here appear to delete all changees made directly without extensive discussion etc. etc. [[User:DLH|DLH]] 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


What is unique about this idea is that it does not fall into the notion of what I call "mind idealism" where thought creates the world. Rather it is both perceptual idealism and perceptual realism and obliterates the distinction, for the world that people (and animals) see is the real world and not a copy of some metaphysical archetype. Plato's forms become lenses or ways of seeing rather than things. The image world is the only world to see, thus not a representation of an ideal secondary world. Thus it is the first system that escapes representationalism. The system also is compatible both with evolution and belief in an all-creating, all-knowing, all-seeing God, yet does not collapse into the pitfalls of an external God. It is even compatible with existentialism, and one could do away with the idea of God if they had too many negative emotions tied up with the word "God." So it is a very elastic and adaptive basic concept. It represents a general paradigm shift, a turning inside out of our conceptions, but not a new dogma.
:::FM, a question for you arising from more than mere curiosity: what type of "proof" would be required to include the link to ResearchID.org on the 'Intelligent Design' Wikipedia article? -- [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]] 19:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


Another note of interest is that this model obliterates the need for a model of an atom. The natural laws (including quantum ones) are reassigned as perceptual schemata (lenses) or regular ways of seeing, rather than being viewed as we do as the properties of a theoretical entity.
::::Dembski and Behe as active editors of ResearchID.org. Barring that, Dembski and Behe or other leading ID proponents repeatedly citing ResearchID.org as source. Failing there, significant independant media coverage of ResearchID.org ''may'' qualify it, but it would have to be some signifcant and extensive coverage.


Arguments for this view can be found in my book, "The Evolution of Perception."
::::Right now there are [http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Special:Statistics 67 registered users] at ResearchID.org. Of those, fewer than ten are the [http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges most active contributors], with the wiki's [http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/User:JosephCCampana founder, you] being the most active by far [http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/JosephCCampana]. The work of one individual and his 10 or so occasional helpers does not make ResearchID.org a significant or notable source on ID in and of itself. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 20:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


If we were to sum up this view it is that consciousness (reality) creates matter (appearance). This isn't very original. What is original is the view of the order of lenses and the notion of replacing metaphysical entities with a process.
:::::FM, thank you for your response. I think these criteria are fair and it is true that we do not meet any of them yet. I hope to fulfill one, if not all of them, at a future date. At some point, I may return to inquire on your definitions of "active editors," "repeatedly cited," and "significant or notable." Again, I appreciate your very prompt response. Regards, [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]].


<i><blockquote>Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. —Luke 17:21</i></blockquote>
==Improbable versus impossible events==
Added See also link to [[Universal probability bound]] that provides a mathematical basis for addressing the '''Improbable versus impossible events''' issues and is a core ID argument.[[User:DLH|DLH]] 02:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:I see that that link may have gotten caught in the morass of changes and reverts. I personally will not oppose its inclusion. Disclaimer: Opinions of other editors may differ depending on your location in the minefield. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 22:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::Hmmm...I'd have to think a spell...actually, though, DLH, given that Dembski defined it to support his forgone conclusion, it doesn't "prove" anything, it's just bad math...but, since ID is bad science (or really, no science at all), maybe it should be joined by bad math. Maybe. Hmmmm... [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 23:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


<i><blockquote>When mind soars in pursuit of the things conceived in space, it pursues emptiness; but when man dives deep within himself, he experiences the fullness of existence. — Meher Baba</i></blockquote>
:::It's only marginally relevant here. Better placed at [[specified complexity]] if it's not there already. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 23:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


[[Image:Pd_4.jpg]]
==Template placement==
Doesn't it make more sense to have the more specifically relevant template in a more prominent position than the more generally relevant template? I switched the placement of the two templates only because the Intelligent Design series of articles, for obvious reasons, is more relevant to our [[Intelligent design]] article than the Creationism series of articles: both series are relevant, but the one ''specifically named after this page'' is the one we should use at the top of the article. For the exact same reason, the top of the [[Jesus]] article uses the template for the "Jesus" series of articles, and the template for the "Christianity" series of articles is lower-down on the page. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 02:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


:Aside from the Creationism template being on top for early two years now, I'd think that subcategories always follow their parent categories, hence: Creationism (category) --> intelligent design (type). [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 02:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


::This is not a category, this is a template. Templates do not go, on an article page, from "top-level hierarchy" to "bottom-level hierarchy" as one scrolls from the top to the bottom of an article: that would be ''horrendously'' inefficient and poorly-designed. People who had just arrived at the "Botany" article, for example, would have to wade through first a "Science" template, then a "Biology" one, ''then'' finally get to the template that's actually relevant to the article, the "Botany" listing! (Even though, obviously, a "Botany" template or an image is what should adorn the top of the article, since that's the most immediately relevant and significant topic.)
::Moreover, although I didn't want to have to get into this issue, Intelligent Design advocates dispute whether ID is a form of Creationism or not; the only motivation for keeping the template at the ''top'' of the page (when it would work just as well ''slightly'' lower in the article) is to go out of our way to snub them, in this case at the expense of encyclopedic value. ''Moreover'', the intro to "intelligent design" nowhere mentions "creationism". Neither does the "Intelligent design in summary" section. Indeed, the word ''creationism'' is only mentioned ''six'' times in the entire article text! And "we should keep it this way because it's always been this way" is a terribly weak argument; nothing on Wikipedia would ever improve if we truly cared more about tradition than utility to the reader.
::I'm not arguing for the ''removal'' of the creationism template, merely for the placement of an even ''more'' blatantly relevant template (the ID one) in the most prominent position in the article, so that users who come here looking for intelligent design articles will be immediately given the most benefit possible&mdash;if someone was looking specifically for a listing of creationism topics, they would have searched for "[[creationism]]", of course. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 03:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


:''Explanation of the chart above: In the evolution of perception, represented as progressing from left to right in the above chart, each perceptual schema (represented as pink ovals or lenses) gives rise to the raw material for the next perceptual schema. As they emerge in God's imagination, the impression they produce supervenes with the previous impression to form the world of appearances. The world of appearance is what we refer to as the phenomenal world. The world is illusion in every sense of the word, a complete chimera, a delusion. Yet what arises out of this process is God's own awareness of his existence. God himself is cause and world (appearance) is effect. Only the cause (God) ever truly exists. God, the Witness, (who is invisible) exists. The world (that appears) is illusion.''
:::I understand the difference between templates and categories on Wikipedia; I meant category in the general sense.


:::Well, I'm glad to see you're not arguing for the removal of the creationism template, since ID is by definition and necessity a ''type'' of creationism, something that is apparent when the article is read. If it needs to be better spelled out it can easily be added, there's no shortage of supporting cites available for that addition.


:::If you're going to stand on argument of "utility" or "benefit" for the placement of the Creationism of ID templates, favoring ID over Creationism strikes me as arbitrary since most ID enthusiasts coming to this article are creationists by definition and necessity again. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 03:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


One of the problems that faces our times is the view of relativism. For instance, people seem to have misinterpreted the implications of quantum mechanics to be that the percept is entirely in the individual's mind. This misunderstanding is expressed in new age literature such as ''Seth Speaks'' and ''Jitterbug Perfume''. The newly popular confused view is that everyone has their own reality (entirely!). This has led to the false idea that the whole world is an expression of your own ego or thoughts. An individual's thoughts, it is falsely assumed, is causing the image world. How absurd!
::::"Favoring ID over Creationism" ''in general'' would be arbitrary&mdash;there's no reason to place the ID template above the creationism one in ID/creationism articles that are primarily creationism-related. But favoring ID over creationism ''in the ID article'' isn't arbitrary, it's just common sense. Not putting the ID template on the top of the article just because ID is a ''type'' of creationism (which, again, IDers themselves ardently dispute, though I don't want to get into that issue) would be like not putting the Scientology-articles template at the top of the [[Scientology]] article and instead putting a general "religion" template there because Scientology is a religion.
::::How ''broad'' a template is is largely irrelevant in a discussion of template placement: what matters is how directly ''relevant'' it is to the article in question (and therefore how useful it will be to people just coming to the article), and the Intelligent Design template is clearly, inherently ''100%'' relevant to the [[Intelligent design]] article, which makes it a better choice for the top of the article even if creationism is ''99%'' relevant to the article (and it's probably closer to 75%, since there ''are'' noteworthy differences between the two movements: creationism is more explicitly religious, ID is more pseudoscientific). Also, the [[intelligent design]] article is written for the general public, not for "ID enthusiasts" (by which you seem to mean "ID believers"), so your above argument is a red herring. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 06:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::::In an attempt to compromise, I've restored the ID template to the top of the page, ''but'' added a link to [[creationism]] at the very top of that template ({{tl|Intelligent Design}}). If the view that ID is a type of creationism is as uncontroversial as you claim it is, then there should be no problem whatsoever with linking to [[creationism]] in the ID template. And now we get to actually start the ID article with links to ID-related topics! Much better, ne? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 09:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


What needs to be understood is that some of the world that you perceive is the same for everyone and some is an outcome of one's personal biology and personal beliefs, i.e. an interpretation of that global reality.
:::::Silence, regarding your revert: no consensus was reached here. FM merely agreed that the ID template might be of value in the article. It may be, but not at the top. Additionally, when responding, let's try not to write pseudo-doctoral theses, shall we.
:::::As for your purported compromise -- it's no compromise. Since you are attempting to change what we have already agreed upon here, I'm reverting once again. Try to gain consensus for your change ''before'' you make further changes.
:::::In addition, the wholesale changes you made to other sections of the article are unsupported. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 10:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::::::I agree with keeping the creationsm template first and the ID template second. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 14:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::::I find it rather curious that three different people have endorsed a certain template placement without yet having actually explained their basis or justification in any way, shape, or form. Surely there is ''some'' reason to keep the status quo, hence your support for it? KimvdLinde and Jim62sch have both ignored the discussion entirely in favor of blind-support voting (in Jim62sch's case, accompanied by scornful and insulting [[WP:AGF|bad-faith]]-assuming), and FeloniousMonk's explanations have been some of the flimsiest I've ever seen in my life, amounting to the fallacious "it's good because it's been there a while" and the patently false "broader, vaguely-relevant things must go higher than more specifically relevant things".
:::::::As a side-point, I've only been visiting this article for a short while, but purely from my experiences on this Talk page so far (which I expect, and ''hope'', is quite inaccurate!), it's, ironically (and despite having a similar appreciation for science and references), almost exactly the opposite of the [[Talk:Evolution]] page: xenophobic (new people editing = changes must be bad!), ultraconservative (whatever's already in the article now must stay there forever!), hostile, unhelpful, unreasonable, dismissive, and ''completely'' uninterested in relevant discussion or the open exchange of ideas. It makes me sad. I hope this first impression is a false one, and the environment here is friendlier and more open than it's initially appeared. :/ Surely a little controversy isn't enough to burn away all the Wikilove. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::::::::First of all, I follow the discussions at this page, but do not feel the need to add comments to every discussion. I think that an article should start with the general templates first before going into the more specific templates, just my opinion. As for your arguments, ID is not even pseudoscientific, and is just as religious as creationism. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 14:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::I did what? "scornful and insulting bad-faith-assuming" -- it was probably more condescending than insulting. In any case, I note that you are indeed new to this page -- did you bother to read all the archives or just the FAC part? Other than the clever use of a template refering to the [[watchmaker analogy]] as the lead template, you've really not brought anything new to the page.[[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::::::Let's compromise: it was insultingly condescending. OK? :) Good job keeping it up, too. Whee. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::So the [[Jesus]] article should start with a [[Religion]] template (and a [[History]] template?), then further down the page provide a [[Christianity]] template, then finally a [[Jesus]] template? Aren't we forgetting about practicality and accessibility in the midst of this arbitrary "most general goes at the top" idea?
:::::::::Anyway, thanks for the reply to my comment. To respond: ID is certainly [[pseudoscience|pseudoscientific]], as it is "a body of alleged knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that is portrayed as scientific but diverges substantially from the required standards for scientific work or is unsupported by sufficient scientific research"; and I did not state that ID is nonreligious: I stated that ID, unlike creationism, is not ''explicitly'' religious (though it doesn't always hide it well). -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::This is the intelligent design article, not the Jesus article -- let's try to keep that in mind. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::The [[Jesus]] article is a completely random example. I also used a [[Botany]] example earlier. Objecting to my valid analogy on the grounds that the two articles are not exactly alike is missing the point of what an "analogy" is: it points out a comparable quality between two unlike things in order to illustrate a point. If the two things were alike, it wouldn't be an analogy, now would it? :/ You're ignoring the meat of the argument, in favor of the plate. Plates are unnutricious, sir. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::<small>reduce indent</small> Meat: Kitzmiller decision -- ID is creationism. Dessert?
:::Complete and absolute non sequitur. Nobody in this entire discussion, myself included, has even once said "ID is not creationism". The argument is about whether or not a list of ID links is more relevant to ID than a list of Creationism links is to ID&mdash;which is about as silly as asking whether a list of Elvis Presley links is more relevant to Elvis Presley than a list of rock & roll links. It's blatantly obvious. Having the ID template at the top is both more useful to readers (since otherwise there's no major article on Wikipedia they can go to to immediately get to the ID template, and the "hub" ID forms betwee the entire ID series of articles is blocked off unnecessarily from easy "hopping" from one to another) ''and'' makes more sense layout-wise (since an ID-specific thing is ''inherently'' more relevant ''to ID'' than a corresponding Creationism thing, and the top of an article should be used for what's most specifically relevant, useful, and illustrative, not for a cheap opportunity to try to piss off IDers at the expense of encyclopedic usefulness). -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 03:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::If it were pseudoscience, there would not have been a victory in the Dover case based on the first amendment, because that amendment does not prohibite bad science. As for the templates, I make up my mind based on accesability, not how other articles do it, and could come to different conclusions for differetn articles, which is not a problem. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 15:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
*I think I see where the misunderstanding is. [[Pseudoscience]] means "fake science", not "bad science", KimvdLinde. The Greek prefix ''pseudo-'' means "false, counterfeit, fake". Pseudoscience isn't a ''type'' of science, it's nonscience masquerading as science. As for the templates, I, too, make up my mind based on accessiblity, not on how other articles do it, and would come to different conclusions for different articles&mdash;which is the main reason I came to the conclusion for this article that the template ''for the article itself'' (this article is still named "Intelligent design", right?) is more immediately relevant than a template for anything else. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
<small>reduce indent</small> Dollars to donuts, Kim knows what pseudoscience is. In any case, you missed Kim's point: the US Courts don't rule that the [[Establishment Clause]] has been violated absent a tie to religion, hence, ID is creationism (religion) cast anew -- that's it's pseudoscience (and in Dembski's case, pseudo-math) is just one more problem it has. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::I don't see how anything you said implies that I missed Kim's point. I'd expect Kim to know what pseudoscience is, too, but the context and contents of the above statement make it sound like Kim's saying that "ID isn't pseudoscience because a court said it isn't science", which seems rather backwards. On the other hand, it's quite obvious (even painfully obvious?) that both you and Kim have completely missed ''my'' point, as demonstrated by the fact that you argued against my "creationism is more explicitly religious, ID is more pseudoscientific" statement by, essentially, agreeing with it. You pointed out examples of how ID is implicitly religious and pseudoscientific, which is exactly what I was saying: non-ID creationism is more explicit in its religiosity, and usually makes significantly less effort to try and give the false impression of being scientific, secular, etc. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Ah, so you value door number 3 more than what's behind door number 3 then? [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 21:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Nope. I'm just not ignorant to the existence of the door. If you'd rather walk face-first into it than perform the simple action of turning the handle and opening it, go for it. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 03:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
:::And here I was trying to avoid the cliché about wrapping paper. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


Currently the world is divided into two false views. One is that the world is independent of all perception. The other is that it is dependent on an individual's beliefs. Both are wrong and incomplete. The whole world is perception, but not the perception of the individual.
{{tl|Intelligent Design}} looks pretty good to me; I think, considering this article is the main article of the series, it makes sense to increase the visibility of the most closely related articles with the template. Putting it as the top template would be best, in my opinion, although considering the resistance to change on this page, it might be less of a headache for everyone involved to just keep the Creationism template on the top and add the new one below.--[[User:Ragesoss|ragesoss]] 05:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


The above model accounts for both the objective and the subjective. It does away with the old false dichotomy that it is one or the other.
The ID template could be first. That would be fine and I would support this. I think the original choice for the creationism template first was for spatial reasons because the creationism template was longer than the ID template. However, it makes sense to have the ID template first on the ID page. --[[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] 05:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


Another outcome of this confusion is the sense that there is no 'truth' and that all beliefs are mere opinion—or worse—mere "language games" ([[Ludwig Wittgenstein]]). This frightening view has led to two equally frightening responses. On the one hand you have a loss of respect for truth and a view that everyone has their own truth... and of course a totally self-absorbed way of living. The other is in reaction to this nightmare—fundamentalism. Fundamentalism (the reaction to relativism) is now leading us backward to a time of dogmatism and superstition.
:Yes, I agree. It makes quite a bit of sense to start the ID article with the ID template, if we're going to use the ID template on any pages at all! The arguments above for keeping the Creationism one at the top of the page (rather than a few inches lower, in the "Overview" section) seem extraordinarily weak and inconsistent, and more based on adherence to tradition ("creationism was around longer, so it goes on the top") and a poor understanding of template-placement standards and conventions ("the broader template goes above the more specific one, even if the more specific one is vastly more relevant to this article than the broader one"), rather than on solid reasoning. All of these arguments have been refuted above. Or at least, KimvdLinde's arguments ("an article should start with the general templates first") and FeloniousMonk's particularly weak arguments (it's been "on top for [n]early two years now" and "ID enthusiasts coming to this article are creationists") have all been effectively refuted; Jim62sch, the other supporter of the current template scheme, hasn't provided any arguments or rationale at all. ScienceApologist, Ragesoss, and myself, on the other hand, have clearly explained the simple reason to include the ID template first: this is the ID article! O_o; Not including the ID template at the top of the ID page because the Creationism template is "broader" would be like not including the Creationism template at the top of the [[Creationism]] page because the Theism template is "broader"; ''specific relevance'', not generality, is the measure of how high-priority a template should be on an article page. That's what most benefits our readers, who should be our first priority, not our last. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 07:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


In the new view it is possible to have a clear sense of reality while remaining undogmatic. For one has a sense of what is true for all and what is not. And one need not choose between "all is individual" and "nothing is individual." So I think this view heals a terrible divide between relativism and fundamentalism.
::SA, thanks for your input, although as I explain below (contary to Silence's assertion), I do not see what the template adds to the article.
::Silence: never again do I want to hear you bitch about what anyone else writes. You seem to be intent on being confrontational and getting in digs wherever possible, which, since you are the person proposing changes, is rather stupid from a political standpoint (deal with the fact that Wiki, as a human endeavour, has it's own political dynamic). Additionally, misreprentation of fact and misrepresentation of an editor's statements is both foolish and a rather serious violation. You state that FM and I have failed to provide rationale or provided weak rational is disengenuous at best. To wit, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Intelligent_design&diff=61548542&oldid=61548232], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Intelligent_design&diff=61546033&oldid=61541243], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Intelligent_Design&diff=60989685&oldid=60961615], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Intelligent_Design&diff=61545777&oldid=61232623]. (Admittedly, I had been somewhat undecided on the issue, but no longer -- absolute no to placing the template at the top, and no to the template period.) Do not misrepresent what I write again, Silence.
::Additionally, as I explained to you before as ID is a subset of Creationism it (ID) should be the second template. Your [[Theism]] analogy is a non-starter as the template, [[Template:Theism]], does not say squat about Creationism.
::As for this, "...most benefits our readers, who should be our first priority, not our last", I agree -- however, I don't see that you speak for our readers any more than does anyone else here, nor are you the arbiter of what is best for our readers. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 10:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


===Quantum Mechanics===
*Jim, all I have done is pointed out that no strong rationale has been proposed for keeping the "creationism" template above the "ID" template, rather than vice versa; I have not made any attacks on any person, nor attempted to provoke any hostile argument, and your accusations to this effect I found rather ironic after almost every comment you have yet directed at me has been clearly weighed in such a way as to antagonize, insult, and goad to the greatest extent possible. I have no interest in fighting you; please find a more constructive way to express your hatred or anger, and keep it off of this Talk page. At the very least, if you feel the need for some reason to attack me, do it at [[User talk:Silence]], where it is more relevant and will not get in the way of the good work people are trying to do here. Thank you, and ''pax tecum''.
*Note that the theism analogy is correct (the only real difference is that the Theism template doesn't have a link to "Creationism", which doesn't matter for the purposes of the analogy). Having a theism template on [[Creationism]] would only provide the information that creationism is theistic, nothing more. Likewise, having a creationism template on Intelligent Design only provides the information that ID is creationistic, nothing more. (And if that fact is so vitally important, it should be mentioned in the first paragraph of the article anyway, properly cited!) Note that this is not an argument against including the creationism template on [[intelligent design]], nor even an argument ''for'' including the theism template on [[creationism]]. It is merely pointing out, correctly, that a theism template, ''despite being broader than the creationism one'', is not more ''important'' to the [[creationism]] article than the creationism template is; and that, for the same reasons, despite creationism being broader than ID, the creationism template is less important to the ID article than the ID template is.
*As for the links you provide, three are regarding the question of whether or not to ''include the template on the page'' (which is a rather strange question; there is as much reason to use an ID template on this page as there is to use a Creationism template on [[Creationism]], as both provide valuable links to a cohesive series of significant articles), not the question of ''which template to place above the other''. "while ID is a subset of Creationism, Creationism is not a subset of ID" is a non sequitur and inconsistent argument, but I did miss it (since it wasn't on this page)&mdash;thanks for catching that one, and I apologize for missing it the first time. Now we have the justifications from all three current proponents of the status quo, and can properly discern the holes in them. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 11:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


Quantum mechanics has come to be associated with a lot of hocus pocus. People use the 'amazingness' of quantum events to justify almost anything. This is an unfortunate state of affairs as it leads to the argument from ignorance that can be abused to justify almost any nutty claim. In the new view quantum events are rather trivial. In "The Evolution of Perception" I explain what quantum events are and why they seem bizarre. They only seem bizarre through the lens of the old way of looking at reality. In the new way they have no hocus pocus and they have no important implications. Quantum events, in recent time, have been used to further justify that everything is in your head. This is a socially and scientifically dangerous misunderstanding. Quantum laws arise prior to the rise of individual mind. Thus the individual observer is not creating quantum events as certain people have thought. Nor are they very mysterious when understood in the context of an ordered process that gives rise first to individuality and then to the image world.
I don't understand why the Creationism series-template is on top. Isn't this article called Intelligent Design, not Creationism? If the more general templates have to go on top, you might as well then put a Hypotheses series-template on top of the Creationism template, and then put an Ideas series template even before that, and then maybe even a All Stuff template before ''that''. That doesn't make sense. ID page: ID template. Doing otherwise strikes me as just keeping the traditional layout for tradition's sake, no? [[User:DG|D.]] [[User_talk:DG|G.]] 21:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


===George Berkeley===
:ID is the most notable type of creationism at the moment, giving {{tl|creationism2}} prominent placement seems appropriate to me. I've questioned if {{tl|Intelligent Design}} is even necessary here since the links it contains are already found in the article. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 21:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


[[George Berkeley]] was the philosopher with a view closest to this one. What Berkeley calls 'ideas in the mind of God' simply are lenses in this view, ways of seeing. But Berkeley failed to account for the influence of the principle of time and thus imagines God as truly distinct from our minds. Yet Berkeley comes amazingly close.
*Isn't "ID is the most notable type of creationism", on its own, a reason to mention ID prominently on the creationism page, not vice versa? "X is the most notable Y" is an assertion that X is significant in any discussion of Y, not necessarily that Y is significant in any discussion of X; that depends on other justifications.
*Also, actually, not all of the links are found in the article ([[Intelligent design in politics]] is linked to solely within the template), and even several of the ones that are are rather out-of-the-way and hard to track down for an interested user, despite their importance. Yes, how many times and how prominently a link is featured in the article is relevant, but not as relevant of the question of ''how important the link is'' to the article: having two links to a centrally-important article like [[wedge strategy]] is vastly more worthwhile than having one to a tangentially-related article like [[Old Earth Creationism]], for example.
*And that's the reason why having both a creationism and ID template is a fine idea for this article, but having the creationism one ''above'' the ID one (rather than vice versa) is bizarre: why feature links to only quasi-relevant articles like [[modern geocentrism]], [[omphalos (theology)]], and [[Islamic creationism]] more prominently and immediately than links to [[Discovery Institute]], [[irreducible complexity]], [[Teach the Controversy]], etc.? You have to consider things from the perspective of someone ''completely new'' to the article, not just from the perspective of someone who's already thoroughly scanned over and reviewed the page: new readers will have no idea whatsoever that those links are to be found at various points in the article, or where they are in the overall layout.
*Consequently, not only does having an ID template at or near the top not cause any inconvenience or trouble whatsoever, but it actually provides a huge benefit to new readers! This same line of reasoning is responsible for hundreds of other articles receiving similar treatment, including [[Christianity]], [[History of Poland]], [[Emotion]], [[Scientology]], and [[Creationism]] itself; the fact that a link is repeated elsewhere in the article is irrelevant if it's a sufficiently important link to ''merit'' linking to twice. A little redundancy for the editors is tolerable for the sake of a lot of utility for the readers. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


===Myth===
::You've been angling for this change for weeks now. What the big deal? Why is it so important again? [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 22:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


Anyone who has studied the work of [[Joseph Campbell]] has realized that the subject of myth is embedded in a deep mystery. I believe that myth arises in man's own mind and is a layer of man's individual lenses, born of thought and education. But what has mystified me is that all cultures have certain common myths (See ''The Hero With a Thousand Faces'' by Joseph Campbell). This has made me wonder if I have it wrong. Does myth arise earlier in the process, before the rise of individual awareness? Or could it be that the universal mind (collective unconscious) realizes its own journey in the state of man as individual and then expresses this dimension as myth. If one studies what Campbell calls "the hero myth" he sees that it oddly reflects the whole process above as an inner journey. I think these are questions for future generations. Myth is key. In the hero myth man seems to have guessed his own real purpose, to journey into illusion to discover by trials his own real original identity.
:::Honestly? Because I'm a baby-eating creationistic religious fundamentalist zealot who wants to destroy the separation of church and state, turn the United States into a theocracy, and put all the scientists in concentration camps. :D
:::Come on, FM. What the heck do you want me to say here? My reason for pushing for this change is extraordinarily simple: it just makes sense to me. ''ID is itself''; a template specifically about ID is more important to an ID-focused article than a template generally about Creationism, by the very nature of the interaction of topics and categories. I have seen hundreds of other articles with seriesbox templates, and, despite having seen a wide variety of silly errors, layout ''faux pas'', and inconsistencies across the board on Wikipedia, have ''never'' seen anyone have any problem with the simple principle of putting the more specifically-relevant template in a more prominent position than the less specifically-relevant one before now.
:::It is an anomaly, and seemingly a completely arbitrary one; I have no problem with making exceptions to rules where they ''benefit'' the article, but this one doesn't seem to do that at all. And from the arguments I've heard for the status quo so far, I am thoroughly unconvinced that putting the creationism template above the ID one is in the article's best interests; its support seems to stem primarily from the fact that it's simply been around longer, with other, half-hearted justifications coming after the fact. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


===Understanding how the model works===
::"''Isn't "ID is the most notable type of creationism", on its own, a reason to mention ID prominently on the creationism page, not vice versa?''" Not if disengenuously separating ID from its creationist roots in the mind of the public is an item on the agenda of ID proponents, it isn't. We're not here to endorse or assist a particular viewpoint, particularly considering what NPOV has to say about handling pseudoscience. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 22:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


I want to try to explain the rationale behind the idea of an evolution of perceptual schemata (lenses) as described above, along with how these schemata give rise to the aspects of what we see.
:::Then mention [[creationism]] (or better yet, [[neo-creationism]], a term specifically created as a label for ID and related movements) in the first paragraph of the [[intelligent design]] article. I'll support you 1000% in doing so. Come on. It's obviously important, as you've stated; why wait until 3/4 of the way down the article (in the "movement" section) to mention it? At the very least state it explicitly in the "Overview" section. Why use coy templates for what would be better conveyed through well-referenced, clear, cogent textual explanations? I ''support'', fully, clearly pointing out to our readers that ID is a fundamentally creationistic concept and movement. I simply want to do it ''right'', and not let our zeal to point such facts out get in the way of organizational effectiveness and utility&mdash;i.e., letting our desire to make it blatantly obvious that ID is creationism get in the way of the simple organizational principle that a more centrally relevant list of links in a box is a better choice for the top of the article than a more tangentially relevant list of links in a box. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


My daughter once saw a steam shovel and asked what it was. Perhaps they call them back hoes now, but I said, "It's a steam shovel." Then she asked me how it was made and I said, "It was made out of metal." Then she asked me where all that metal came from and I said, "It was dug out of the ground." To this she asked how we got the metal out of the ground and I said, "We used steam shovels." Of course she laughed with delight because she had caught me in a circle of reasoning. So I made up the following story. "Long ago a man picked up a stick and dug up some soft metal near the surface of the soil. From this soft metal he made a little trowel. With his little trowel he could dig much deeper and dug up heavier metal. With this heavier metal he fashioned a strong hand shovel. With this strong hand shovel he dug up even more metals, mixed them to make even stronger alloys, and from these new alloys he fashioned a steam shovel and many other machines like cranes. And with these cranes he built this city."
* Honestly, I think the ID Template on any of pages it lists is completely unnecessary. ID is a subset of Creationism and the Creationism template works fine not only in pointing people who wish to know more about the subject to ID, but also in sending people interested in ID to other forms of creationism. Honestly, I think if there must be an ID template, it should have a link at the top pointing back to Creationism, the major category to which it belongs. --[[User:Jmast7|Jmast7]] 15:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


As you see, the way out of circularity is to postulate a process. Otherwise we fall into an infinite regress. The same story can be told about the image-world and how it was formed. "Long ago there was perception, but it had a whim to know itself and so it went seeking. Since there was only perception, perception had to invent a first way of perceiving so it could build something out of itself. This first way of perceiving was distinction or duality, i.e. splitting in two. But this wasn't enough, for perception could not pull its distinctions apart from one another. So perception used distinction to make a particular kind of distinction which served as a medium in which to manifest its idea of distinction. And this way of perceiving was time. Time made it possible to perceive relations. Out of relations perception created natural laws. And out of these natural laws perception formed a body. And now looking through this body perception saw other bodies. And now using its old idea of distinctions perception divided the bodies it saw into up and down, good and bad, rich and poor. Then perception (seeing and moving about through the vehicle of its invented bodies) built buildings out of decomposed bodies (stone and wood) and shaped houses and roads and labeled some good and some bad, some sacred and some profane, etc. And then perception had created a world out of distinctions in a world that we call the world of duality, which is really only in the imagination of the one and only reality, which itself never really went anywhere since there was nowhere in reality to go but itself. But by this time perception was quite caught up in this fantastic illusion it had formed and took itself to be this one and that one. Slowly perception (in the form of a man or a woman) began to question the distinctions it saw all around itself and wonder about its true identity. And one day it dawned on perception that perception had always been, always was, and always would remain the one indivisible source of all that it had come to perceive. Then perception no longer took itself to be the things it saw, but rather their source. And it saw that that impression was simply its own indivisible reflection in the world of forms. The world was of Him, yet He was not of the world. In that moment perception realized that the world of duality was really nothing and that perception, its source, was really the everything."
:* Yes, ID is a subset of Creationism, but it is the ''largest'' subset of creationism by far. There is no reason not to have templates for both, to make navigating the relevant pages easier on users, especially since we aren't using illustrative images for the top corner of the article (or for just about anywhere in any of the articles in the ID series at all).
:* By the way, I agree with you about the link to [[creationism]] (or at least [[neo-creationism]]) at the top of the [[Template:Intelligent Design|ID template]]. I myself tried to add such a link, but was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AIntelligent_Design&diff=60913481&oldid=60802382 reverted] by Guettarda and FeloniousMonk without any substantial explanation or justification, just with an insulting and unjustified [[WP:AGF|accusation of bad faith]]. Perhaps you should try to reason with them.
:* I find it bizarre that a group of editors so adamant about making it clear that ID is a form of Creationism are so completely unwilling to discuss the possibility of making such things clear ''on the top of the ID template'' or ''in the text of the article's lead and/or intro''; it seems utterly paradoxical to be strongly in support of an ambiguous, unexplained indicator of ID's Creationistic origins and strongly opposed to an unambiguous and clear (and, in the case of a mentioning of this fact in the lead or overview, able to be properly referenced) indicator of ID's Creationistic origins. If it is so important, it shouldn't be left until halfway down the article. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 18:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
::Must say that my considered preference is to have the ID template with a creationism link at the top, with the creationism template immediately below it rather than at the head of the first section. This quickly shows the various linked ramifications of ID, with the less relevant varieties of creationism underneath, and would look well at all the ID articles. ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 18:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
:::An ID template with Creationism would be fine with me, but right now all the other entries in the series look incredibly cluttered with both ID and Creationism templates awkwardly stacked on top of each other. Everything fits OK into the ID page because the entry is so long, but the others look terrible. How about adding a Creationism link in the ID template, keeping both templates on the main ID page, then simply having the ID template on all the ID subset categories (The DI, IC, Wedge Strategy and such)? Thanks for the quick feedback - Cheers! --[[User:Jmast7|Jmast7]] 23:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


In short, out of perception are formed the schemata of time and space. Out of the schemata of time and space are formed the laws of nature. Out of the laws of nature are formed bodies. Through bodies color, sound etc. are perceived. Through intellect cultural schemata are conceived, creating the cultural world around us.
==Expanding lead section slightly==
The current lead section is very well-referenced, decently neutral, and accurate. A good job overall. However, in my opinion, it is not quite as balanced or explanatory as it could, and should, be. a significant problem is that it spends too little time actually presenting the basic ideas behind the concept of "intelligent design": only a sentence or two actually discuss the concept, and then two paragraphs are spent on its repurcussions and criticism&mdash;before most people will probably really understand what IDers advocate.


===Mysticism===
Obviously we shouldn't go into ''too much'' detail in the lead (especially since we have an "overview" section just below for explaining a lot of that), but a little expansion of the first paragraph wouldn't hurt. (And, if the first paragraph was expanded by about 50%, it would give us a good reason to merge the second two paragraphs into one, which I think is merited by their shortness and related scope.) I noticed, reading over this article's last FAC, that a large portion of the "oppose" votes were concerned that the article spent too much time on negative criticism and commentary, relative to time spent on actually describing the concept of "intelligent design" itself. It's no wonder that they would think that, when two-thirds of our lead section discusses criticism of and opposition to the movement, not the actual beliefs or activities or what-have-you of the IDers themselves! I have no problem with us including a significant amount of ID-criticism in the lead, since that ''is'' a major, and noteworthy, aspect of the movement (if not of the belief system itself...), but if we can chance that 1/3 ratio to 1/2 (or ''at least'' 2/5), it should allay a significant amount of the potential "too much negative commentary, not enough direct description" criticism.


What does this model allow us to see that is of spiritual value? In what way does this model help us understand what is and is not real?
I have no strong opinions on what, specifically, we should add to the first paragraph, as long as it is broad, well-referenced, and informative enough, but the best suggestions I can think of include adding a mentioning of the [[intelligent design movement]], or possibly of some closely-related topics (such as the [[teleological argument]] or [[creationism]]). -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 09:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


[[Image:Model 8.jpg|400px]]
:The intro is fine as it stands; accurate, balanced and well-supported.


What is important to see through this model is that that which is truly real (on the left in the above diagram) precedes or transcends the percept, i.e. does not fall into the scope of its imagined schemata (seen in the gray region of the diagram). In other words, God (or Self) cannot be understood in terms of the dimensions that we think in. Even to say "God is One" is merely a concept understood in contrast to duality. And no such contrast can apply. Thus, the nondual mystics say of the transcendental, "Not one; not two." What they mean to communicate is that about the "I am" we can only speak in negative terms, for we have no schemata to understand it with.
:The current balance struck in the article represents a careful effort to adhere to the Undue Weight clause of the NPOV policy which states: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each. '''Now an important qualification:''' Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views..." ID proponents say ID a scientific theory. The scientific community says no it's not. Since ID proponents are an extreme minority within the scientific community, something like less than 1%, the article is rather generous in the amount of weight it grants ID. Dictating a percentage of the article dedicated to criticism for "balance" as you propose is arbitrary; any accurate, complete and NPOV article will cover all significant viewpoints in whatever amount their significance demands.


::''"Even to say There is one God is wrong. God is so infinitely One that He cannot even be called One. One may only say, One is."'' — Meher Baba
:You're mistaken in relying on the comments in the failed FAC. As a review of the FAC reveals, this article's FAC was scuttled by a few known ideologues and a good number of single-purpose accounts raising bad faith objections; knowingly tendentious and specious viewpoints. This will always be the case with this article. As long as those promoting the ID strategy of spinning facts edit Wikipedia, no genuinely neutral treatment of the topic will be accepted as balanced or neutral by ID advocates here. Experience by long term contributors has shown that those who object will never be satisfied by anything other than a perfectly pro-ID article. Our aim is for a genuinely accurate and balanced article, and the wide recognition outside of Wikipedia as such is proof enough the current article does that well. Just because ideological ax-grinders can scuttle its Featured Article status is no justification for sacrificing what we've achieved already.


::''"There are two things that exist: One and Many. One we call God; Many we call Illusion. Why? Because in Reality only One is. Even to call this One, One, is not right -- One is."'' — Meher Baba
:Please seek and abide by consensus and not edit war over your proposed changes. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 16:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::'''Someone please request protection on this article to stop these various unconsensused mass edits?''' ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 16:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Kenosis, my actual changes to the article are really just a large-scale copyedit, not a content change. I wasn't aware that prior consensus was required to even attempt to fix commas and clarify wordings. Is there a committee I have to go through to correct typos and fix wikilinks? :)
::::I'm also confused as to why you placed this request in this specific section. Nothing I wrote above has anything to do with any of the changes I made to the article; my proposal to slightly increase the amount of actual information about ID in the intro is entirely theoretical and long-term. Then again, I'm also confused as to why you didn't just ask me yourself, or point out some problem in any of my edits, if you wanted to discuss my recent copyedit... I thought protection was the ''last'' resort, not the first one? Odd. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::Silence, as you can readily see by looking through recent edits, there have within the last few days been numerous controversial and repeated POV edits (on both "sides" of the debate really). Sorry to see these all get tangled up together in a morass. No doubt your proposals will get properly parsed and sorted out, but given that there are many editors who've demonstrated continuing interest in this article it appears that it will take a bit of time. It would be much more feasible for the various editors to parse if each edit were implemented point-by-point with an edit summary attached to each. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 16:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
::Firstly, please read what I actually wrote above. You sound like you are responding to my suggestions on autopilot, blindly assuming that I am advocating that we remove any of the criticism from the intro (which I am explicitly not) and completely ignoring all of my actual ''suggestions'', which are thought-out, 100% consistent with NPOV policy, and quite important for this article's future.
::Secondly, please actually look at the edits I made to the article before you make wild assumptions and accusations regarding their nature. I have yet to make a single real content-related change to this article; my edits have been purely stylistic, grammatical, etc. consisting almost entirely of copyedits. My actual edits to this article have exactly ''nothing'' to do with my proposed changes above; I would not make such dramatic changes to an article like this without first heavily discussing the matter and achieving consensus (hence my making this thread). My changes to the article are almost without exception both obvious and minor.
::Thirdly, please drop the patronizing attitude. I've read the NPOV policy page dozens of times before, and not a single thing I said above is even remotely close to contradicting any aspect of Wikipedia policy. I did not "rely" on any of the criticisms from the FAC (at least some of which were indeed valid), I simply referenced them. And my argument for making the intro a more balanced mix of description of the ID belief and movement, and criticism and reactions thereto, was based on utility to the reader (because providing a little more information on the beliefs/movement itself in the lead is worthwhile) and bringing the article more closely in line with NPOV (because NPOV says not to give undue weight to minority views in articles comparing different views on an issue, not to neglect adequately describing the actual topic of an article when that topic is heavily criticized), not on arbitrary percentages&mdash;I apologize if I gave that impression with the middle segment of my post. Thank you for your time. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


To understand that the ''Alpha'' is beyond understanding and to see precisely why this is so is the aim and terminus of philosophy. To yearn to experience directly that which we 'cannot' understand with our minds is the starting point of mysticism. If this model allows one to see this single idea of reality and illusion, and the shadow born of mind that conceals this divide, then it is of value. Of course the 'eye picture' on the left is simply a symbol that maps to nothing that we can conceive. It is more a 'place-marker' for what we cannot know with the mind, but is in fact that which asks the question and seeks its answer.
:::When was the FAC? October 2005. This version was the FA candidate [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&oldid=27052458]. Since then the article has already been significantly rewritten incorporating what few good faith and relevant comments were made, so your attempt now is too late, overtaken by events. And considering the edits so far from you, I'm not convinced that you've a firm grasp on how undue weight applies to this topic and topic itself. You'd have gotten a lot further here had you used accurate edit summaries and sought consensus first. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 16:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


===Comparing the Old Model and the New===
::::Again, don't assume I'm an idiot: I already realize that any high-traffic article is going to have been rewritten in the last ''9 months''. :P I did not base any of my comments on the FAC; I made my suggestion independently, then as an after-the-fact addition made note of the main issue brought up on the FAC. I wouldn't even have referenced the FAC if I hadn't thought that adding the tantalizing possibility of FAhood might impel others to more seriously consider my recommendation, giving an impetus not to assume that the ''status quo'' is wholely inerrant; if I'd known what scorn you apparently have for the FA voters, I would have realized it was counterproductive and not bothered. Live and learn..
::::Your comments are ridiculous, and again imply that you are profoundly unfamiliar not only with the edits I've made to this article, but also, oddly, with the post I made only a few inches above when I started this section. o_O; Nothing I said in my post is "too late"; you fixate on the fact that I made an offhand mentioning of a months-old FAC, completely ignoring the actual contents of my recommendation, which is really a useful "outsider's perspective" (the most important perspective for an encyclopedia!) from someone first reading the intro paragraphs: a typical outsider will correctly recognizing that, as I mentioned, the intro is "well-referenced, decently neutral, and accurate", but will find it unbalanced in that it spends too little time on actually explaining the belief system (and [[intelligent design movement|movement]] thereof) before it jumps into the critique. An outsider will not know or care that the current lead is a compromise that has been months in the making, requiring hard work and dedication from a variety of talented editors: what matters to readers is the ''result'', not the process, and writing off this article's lead section's deficiency of balance just because the editors have Faith in it is counterproductive.
::::''"And considering the edits so far from you, I'm not convinced that you've a firm grasp on how undue weight applies to this topic and topic itself."'' - This is a big accusation. Can you back it up with any substance? What about my edits has caused you to think that I don't know "how undue weight applies to this topic"? Have you even ''read'' my edits? It increasingly doesn't sound like you have, you merely assume that they ''must'' be poorly-balanced because you reverted them. :P
::::''"You'd have gotten a lot further here had you used accurate edit summaries"'' - Every single edit I made had a 100% accurate edit summary, and I took pains (by spacing out my edits over several changes) to ensure that any user could very easily see every single individual change I made simply by using the "compare" tool. Again, your accusation is utterly baseless.
::::''"and sought consensus first."'' - Routine (albeit thorough and expansive) copyedits do not require prior consensus. I would have ''gladly'' discussed any aspect of any of my edits which anyone objected to; instead, I was met only with blind mass-reverts and insinuated personal attacks. I'm still waiting to actually hear anyone ''say'' what it is about any of my edits that is so objectionable. Is correct comma usage a violation of NPOV? Is avoiding unnecessarily linking to redirects controversial? Is wording sentences in a clear and concise manner a sneaky, bad-faith maneuver? Amazing. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::Silence, I am unable to review all the points here at the moment. But I think you should know this. Some time ago (perhaps FeloniousMonk, ScienceApologist, or another long-term editor can give us a link) an agreement was made among many editors including those with pro, con and neutral views on the subject matter of ID. The agreement was, in essence, that the intro would consist of three brief paragraphs. The first would capsulate ID and who the proponents are; the second would summarize the position of the scientific community, and the third would summarize the current legal status of ID. If I am inaccurate in how I've represented this, could someone please correct it, or confirm it, perhaps provide a link to that archived discussion? ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 20:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


The old model was called 'representationalism.' Representationalism is the view that you are looking at something primary (noumenal or mathematical) and interpreting it with your brain. The new model is different. It is a ''seeing through'' invented evolved schemata (ways of organizing experience) and the result is ''seeing as''. Each perceptual schema brings complexity to the percept, which itself is nothing but a ''seeing as''. In this sense there is no subject or object, but rather an evolved process of simply seeing. ''What'' I see is entirely a result of ''how'' seeing is occurring. The sensation of the subject-object distinction materializes out of this process. In a sense there is no seer or seen, but rather simply seeing. But this is nothing new to the mystics. In reality this is the truly old model.
::::::Yes, that accurately summarizes what was agreed upon here. It's in the archives, anyone who's actually interested can go find and read it. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 21:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Thank you for the information, Kenosis, but I could already deduce that from the way the intro is now. My point is that a more effective and useful summary for an article about [[intelligent design]] would spend more than ''two sentences'' in the intro on actually defining and explaining intelligent design itself! That is my only argument here: I have no problem whatsoever with the second two paragraphs, I simply feel that the first one should be longer, not because we should have a "balance" between pro-ID and anti-ID commentary (that would be silly and not helpful), but because we should have a healthy supply of actual ''description'' of ID and the ID movement before we jump into two full paragraphs of analysis, reactions, and criticism! I do not think that is a remotely unreasonable or odd suggestion, and I think most completely new users to the page, upon reading the current intro for the first time, would fully agree entirely with me that a slightly larger first paragraph, assuming it were just as well-referenced, informative, and neutral as the rest of the intro, would be highly beneficial both in terms of balance and in terms of informativeness. Just putting the thought out there. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 03:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

::::::::We could do it in one: "God created eveything and we can prove it". [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

== ID proponents and Disco instutite ==

Here at the evolution conference, there was a whole day symposium on the Dover case, and I asked one of the expert witnesses of the case about notable proponents not affiliated with the disco institute, and the answer by him was negative. There are not-affiliated proponents, but they have far less visibilty than the affiliated proponents. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 14:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
:So there remains an arguable [[demarcation problem]] in delineating what is a "leading" proponent? What else is new. Suppose I were to say all the DI affilates were merely getting out in front of an already 2500-year-old position? Any real difference? I think not. Fact is, the DI affiliates merely latched onto an old idea, plopped a new name on it and added some additional pseudoscientific speculations that couldn't possibly be objectivly double-checked, then secretly agreed to a political plan to change the heart and minds of the next generation to protect them from, god forbid, [[methodological naturalism|METHODLOGICAL NATURALISM!]]. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 04:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
::Well, like, yeah. ;) [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

== this article==
is still a one-sided propagandaistic mess, good going folks--[[User:F.O.E.|F.O.E.]] 04:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
:By the standard of John 14:6, ID gets an "F". If you go by WWJD, at least be straight-up about Matthew 22:21, ID gets an "F". By the standard of [[methodological naturalism]] ID gets an "F". All these are POV's. Which standard(s) [choose one, or all of the above, or none of the above, or a write-in vote____________] is F.O.E. going by? Excuse me, I'm a bit PO'd right now. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 04:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
::I suppose the propganda would be better if it merely said, "God created everything, and Behe and Dumbski broke the Bible code that proves it". [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

== Problems at end of "controversy" section ==
(While I'm continuing to wait to hear any specific objections or criticisms of the copyedits I've made to the article (thus far, there have been none), I've continued work on the article at [[User:Silence/ID]]; as soon as someone explains what, exactly, is problematic with any of the edits so that the mess can be worked out through discussion, I'll return to making improvements to the article itself.)

In any case, while continuing to scan through the article, I came across the very first passage in the text which I've found to be significantly erroneous. At the end of the "Controversy" section (before the first subsection thereof), the referencing and clarity of the prose seems to take a sudden downward lurch in the last couple of paragraphs. Since this is a content-related issue, I decided to bring the problems up here:

#''"Even though evolution theory does not explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter,"'' - This clause is misleading. It will cause readers to think that evolutionary theory is ''supposed'' to explain [[abiogenesis]], but that it has tried and failed to. The reality of the matter is obviously quite different&mdash;abiogenesis and evolution are distinct occurrences, and evolutionary theory doesn't explain abiogenesis for the same reason gravitational theory doesn't explain the Big Bang. While copyediting, I thought initially to simply reword it to say "Even though evolutionary theory does not seek to explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter,", thinking that the next clause would explain some IDer misconception that evolution and the [[origin of life]] are the same thing, but when I read on I found that the rest of the paragraph seems to address something entirely unrelated.
#''"intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically,"'' - They ''cannot''? Is this a command? To "infer" is "to conclude from evidence or premises; to reason from circumstance; to surmise". Inferences can be either good or bad, either valid or invalid; ID proponents can certainly "infer" that an intelligent designer is behind the non-understood parts of the process (and have been doing so for decades), they just can't ''logically'' or ''reasonably'' infer it (which probably requires a citation).
#''"since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred.''" - This is a different issue, related to the [[God of the gaps]]. If this paragraph is meant to discuss the IDer [[argument from ignorance]], rather than to explain the common IDer misconception that evolutionary theory encompasses [[abiogenesis]], then the beginning of the paragraph shouldn't mention abiogenesis at all. Instead, it should simply say "Even though there are certain aspects of [[abiogenesis]], the generation of life from nonliving matter, that remain unexplained or controversial among biochemists," or something similar. I think that's what the author of this paragraph intended to convey, anyway: it's meant to explain that assuming ID's correctness on the basis that we don't understand ''everything'' is fallacious (which I think is better-explained elsewhere in the article, and in [[irreducible complexity]]).
#The subsequent "pyramid" analogy is acceptable, but somewhat weak. Analogies of this sort are often the poorest way of encyclopedically explaining something, because it is an absolute requirement that the reader ''already be familiar'' with the analogous topic (in this case, kooky theories about aliens building the pyramids), and, in this case, optimally, that the reader ''agree'' with the encyclopedia's assertion that the belief is bogus, etc. I suppose it's not a big deal, but eventually we should probably be able to link to an article explaining the whole pyramid mysticist thing, so the minority of people unfamiliar with the topic can quickly read up to catch up..
#The paragraph after this is unreferenced, and makes a lot of sweeping generalizations. It also seems a bit POVed, in the sense that it sounds like subtle advocacy (especially in contrast with the much more critical paragraphs on ID): "Many religious people... support [[theistic evolution]] which does not conflict with scientific theories." Whether or not theistic evolution conflicts with scientific theories depends on your definition of "conflicts". By the same logic, "[[intelligent falling]]" (God, not gravity, is the cause of objects falling) conflicts with science, but "theistic gravity" (both God and gravity cause object to fall) does not. I can see good arguments being made for such a distinction, but I don't think Wikipedia should voice its own opinion on whether theistic evolution conflicts with scientific theories or not; a citation (or better yet, a quotation) would solve this problem. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 07:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
::Silence, could you kindly number those entries to facilitate referencing them in discussion? The first you point out above ("Even though evolution theory does not explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter...") does not appear to me to be misleading on its face. <s>What is the proposed alternate language?.</s> Proposed replacement with "Even though evolutionary theory does not seek to explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter" also seems OK to me. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 13:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
:*?? Number them? You mean replace my bullet-points with #s? OK... And, it most likely doesn't seem misleading to you because you aware of the fact that [[modern evolutionary synthesis|evolutionary theory]] and [[abiogenesis]] are two completely distinct biological theories, neither one dependant on the other. ID commonly conflates the two, assuming that the [[origin of life]] is just a part of evolutionary theory, but this isn't the case. Most people aren't aware of that: that's why it's an encyclopedia's job to clear such misconceptions up.
:*(Incidentally, this confusion of distinct concepts is why the article's intro used to not mention [[evolution]] at all, before I fixed it (though it's now been mass-reverted without explanation along with my other edits, so it'll have to be reinstated again when possible): because ID literature and activities are constantly presented as an attack on evolution, yet the actual idea of an intelligent designer being the cause of life is more relevant to the [[origin of life]] than to [[evolution]]; that's why creationism and evolution sometimes go hand-in-hand, as in [[theistic evolution]], but you'll have a harder time finding "theistic abiogenesis" :) So someone misunderstood the fact that ID's attacks are more relevant to the origin of life than to its evolution, and improperly removed the much-needed evolution reference in the lead, even though the sentence in question is explicitly about what ''IDers claim ID is''! The sentence begins, after all, with "Its leading proponents... say that intelligent design is...") -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
::RE. #1: As I said, I don't see the current language as misleading, and also don't see how it would necessarily seem misleading to someone who's not familiar with the distinction. It's not misleading on its face because the language "evolution does not explain abiogenesis" makes no inference about whether evolution theory seeks to involve an explanation of origins as well as progressions. As I said, I do not see a problem with the words "evolution does not seek to explain", nor with "does not involve explanation of abiogenesis", nor with some other accurate way of saying it. But I'm just one editor. Thanks for numbering the issues; it makes it much easier to refer to them. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 23:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
:::I understand the point Silence is making at #1, but I also agree with Kenosis that the existing content is not misleading. I have no objection either way. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 23:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
::RE. #2: ("Intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically.") The words "...cannot logically infer..." smacks of positivism. The words "...cannot reasonably infer..." may appear reasonable, but beg for argument about the term reasonable (to whom? Dembski? he obviously thinks such an inference is reasonable; Judge Jones? he obviously concluded it wasn't, etc. etc. ad nauseum with the same POVs that already permeate the discussion). The words "cannot properly infer", to try another phrase,may also be reasonable, but seems to me to beg yet further discussion.

::RE #1, #2, #3 combined, all referring to components of one sentence. My conclusion, and please pardon me for jumping to it, is that there is one too many clauses in this sentence. As Silence already pointed out, that sentence must be taken in context of the entire paragraph which reads as follows. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 14:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::*Even though evolution theory does not explain [[abiogenesis]], the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot ''infer'' that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred. The inference that an intelligent designer (a god or an alien life force)<ref name="Design Inference"/> created life on Earth has been compared to the ''[[a priori]]'' claim that aliens helped the ancient Egyptians build the pyramids.<ref>Michael J. Murray, n.d. [http://server1.fandm.edu/departments/Philosophy/staticpages/Murray/Providence.pdf Natural Providence (or Design Trouble)] ([[PDF]])</ref><ref>Dembski. [http://puffin.creighton.edu/NRCSE/NRCSEPosReID.html What is the position of the NRCSE on the teaching of intelligent design [ID] as an alternative to neo-Darwinian evolution in Nebraska schools?]</ref> In both cases, the effect of this outside intelligence is not repeatable, observable, or falsifiable, and also violates the principle of [[parsimony]]. From a strictly [[empiricism|empirical]] standpoint, one may list what is known about Egyptian construction techniques, but must admit ignorance about exactly how the Egyptians built the pyramids. <!--paraphrasing http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/22/mooney-c.html: "intelligent design advocates don't always articulate precisely what sort of intelligence they think is the designer, but God &ndash; defined in a very nebulous way &ndash; generally out-polls ''extraterrestrials'' as the leading candidate."--> . . . 14:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::The first sentence, incorporating Silence’s points #1, 2, 3 above, reads at present: “Even though evolution theory does not explain [[abiogenesis]], the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot ''infer'' that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred. “

::Suppose that sentence were to read: “Even though evolution theory does not explain [[abiogenesis]], the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot properly ''infer'' that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically.“ In other words, what is the purpose of the clause “... since they have not shown anything supernatural to have occurred." ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 14:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

*Yes, rephrasing the "cannot infer" statement is necessary for accuracy, but doing so, as I mentioned above, "probably requires a citation" so Wikipedia itself doesn't have to judge the validity of inferences. Until we find a good one, though, I'll change "logically infer" to the vaguer "properly infer" to avoid some of the possible criticisms you mentioned above until we can fix the problem.
*As for the latter clause, I don't think it's too complicated in context. Try reading the current version on the [[Intelligent design]] page (which I've rephrased a bit) in its context; I think the wording overall works, it's the factuality that is more potentially worrying. There are many longer or more convoluted sentences on the page.
*The purpose of the "since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred" clause is to explain that if they ''did'' show that something supernatural has occurred (rather than merely attempting to discredit current scientific explanations for something, then leaping to the non-sequitur conclusion that it must have a supernatural cause), then it'd be perfectly fine to infer a supernatural cause, all the more so if there was no viable scientific rationale. The problem the paragraph points out is that in lieu of substantial evidence ''for'' such a supernatural occurrence, merely arguing ''against'' current natural ones is nothing but a fallacious [[argument from ignorance]]. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
::I was hoping you'd catch this here, but the last clause (#3) is arguably circular upon analysis of its content. How does one ''show'' that something supernatural has occurred? that's what the whole ID debate is about, really (that and a political agenda of course). Also, perhaps the first clause (#1) belongs in a separate sentence or different place. If I recall correctly, that first clause was tacked onto the front of the sentence in order to attempt to provide further context for the reader (i.e. I think #1 was the last clause to be added). ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 15:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
After I reverted Silence's lastest mass rewrite of the article without consensus, based on discussion here, I changed the sentence in the article "''Even though evolution theory does not explain [[abiogenesis]], the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot ''infer'' that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred.''" to read "''Though evolution theory does not seek to explain [[abiogenesis]], the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot ''infer'' that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred.''" This was the only point so far discussed that possibly could need changing. By noting that evolutionary theory does not seek to address the issue of origins, we avoid the issue altogether. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 15:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
::The sentence you just wrote, "''Though evolution theory does not seek to explain [[abiogenesis]], the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot ''infer'' that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred.''", doesn't even come close to actually making any sense. There is no meaningful link whatsoever been the "Though evolution" clause and anything that comes after "from nonliving matter". This is the sort of mistake that happens when you ignore the actual context and meaning of the sentence and discussion and just blindly change it to whatever version you (mistakenly) thing people most explicitly supported. Do you care about improving this article, or about devising a suitably elaborate and well-polished maze of bureaucracy for us to work through before we can make those improvements? The version that was actually on the page following the above discussion made logical and grammatical sense, was consistent, was factually accurate, and was sensible, relevant, meaningful, and significant. Yours is just subtly ''non sequitur''-laden silliness, almost like a snippet from a Mad Libs ID book where random pretty-sounding words are strung together until they ''sound'' OK, but have no real meaning. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Deconstructing the sentence:
:::#Evolutionary theory does not seek to explain abiogenesis - True, no where does the modern synthesis claim to explain "origins."
:::#ID proponents attempt to ''infer'' that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, -Correct, ID proponents are taking what they see as a "hole" in science and filling it with a "designer."
:::#ID proponents have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred. - True, ID proponents have presented no actual evidence of design; ID is a series of arugments supported by inferences, not evidence.
:::ID proponents insist that evidence shows an intelligent designer is behind the origin of life, which they say evolution (or more often "Darwinism"/"Neo-Darwinism") fails to address. But ID proponents misrepresnt two things they have no actual evidence of actual "design" (AKA: a supernatural occurance) and modern evolutionary theory, the modern synthesis does not address the issue of origins/abiogenesis.
:::There's no non sequitur there, that is unless you are unaware of or are ignoring what actual ID proponents are saying. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 19:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

*In response to your claims in the "Copyedit" section: I actually went out of my way to create that section because it represents one of the only actual changes in meaning or message that any of my copyedits even touched upon, and you've been repeatedly berating me for not first discussing any content-related changes (mainly due to the fact that you haven't actually read most of my edits and thus mistakenly assumed that simple copyedits were content-related changes), so I'd have thought you'd be happy&mdash;but of course not, regardless of what I do, it'll be the wrong thing as long as it involves any new ideas that you haven't yet signed in triplicate and pressed your Royal Seal upon. :/ Oy.

::So he who is allegedly so stung to the core by sarcasm [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Intelligent_Design] adopts to sarcasm and a not so subtle insult to mistate the reality of this article (oh, dear, I'm not acting in good faith, am I?). My, my, my, how the worm has turned in a mere twenty-four hours.
::By the way, it needs my royal seal too. And Guettarda's, and Kenosis's and enough people to reach a little thing I'm not sure you apprehend, ''consensus''. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 20:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

*Do you even want me to ''explain'' how badly you misinterpreted the results of the discussion, how you were misled in the final version you settled on when you suddenly interjected yourself in the discussion after we'd already resolved most of the confusion and discussion related to the abiogenesis paragraph? It doesn't sound like you do, you're simply convinced that your version is the inerrant people's choice and mine is consensus-lacking (and yours isn't? o_O;) and flawed. The reality is substantially different. Your version, which I rejected immediately upon actually reading the entire paragraph in one go-through, is actually ''two unrelated paragraphs'' randomly smushed into one. The first two clauses is the start of a paragraph about one topic; and the rest of the paragraph is the end of a paragraph of a ''completely unrelated'' topic. The former hypothetical paragraph is about the distinction between scientific theories regarding evolution and ones regarding the origin of life, which are distinct, contrary to popular IDer misconception&mdash;and you corrected the factual inaccuracy in ''that'' respect; but at the same time, you left it bizarrely conjoined with the unrelated rest of the paragraph, which is actually about the [[argument from ignorance]] which IDers suffer from when they assume that any evidence against a scientific theory is evidence ''for'' intelligent design.

*I can see how you could be misled upon a cursory examination of the paragraph, but I'm surprised that you'd be so hasty and unobservant as to go out of your way to choose a flawed, hybrid ''non sequitur'' paragraph over one which had actually been fixed by me! Bizarre. You didn't even ''discuss'' it, you simply assumed that your first-glance interpretation of the situation was 100% correct and mine was 100% incorrect. And you accuse ''me'' of acting against consensus? There's a difference between acting ''without'' explicit consensus and going out of your way to violate what several people have agreed to without any prior discussion: the former is what I've done, the latter what you have. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 20:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::Now see, here we have an example of the misunderstanding of consensus. See, we've gone through all this already. Read the archives (yes, they're a bit long, a bit tiring, but you can do it, I know you can). So, offer up your version (which you do below) and we'll talk about it. No timetables, no jumping to contusions that one person saying "I don't care either way", or no comment in an hour equals consensus. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 20:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

{|
| Hypothetical paragraph 1 (first two clauses)
|bgcolor="lightgrey"| Hypothetical paragraph 2 (rest of para)
|-
| Although [[evolution]]ary theory does not seek to explain the [[origin of life]], only the process by which organisms biologically diversified over time from some form of [[common descent]], intelligent design advocates commonly conflate evolution with the various theories about life's [[abiogenesis|abiogenetic]] development from inorganic matter. Arguments against evolution frequently take the form of arguments against abiogenesis, and vice versa. ''[elaboration here]
|bgcolor="lightgrey"| Although there are certain aspects of [[abiogenesis]], the [[origin of life|generation of life]] from nonliving matter, that remain unexplained or controversial among biochemists, intelligent design proponents cannot logically infer that an intelligent designer must be behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred. ''[pyramid comparison here]
|}

==Copyedit==
It's been over 38 hours since [[User:FeloniousMonk]] and [[User:Kenosis]] mistakenly reverted many of my edits to this article, under the false impression that I was making significant content-related additions (in Kenosis' words, "sneaky insertion of new material without edit summary", though I both used edit summaries and didn't insert any new material; in FeloniousMonk's words, "edit warring for new content", though there was neither edit warring nor significant new content involved), when in reality my edits were essentially a large-scale copyedit and stylistic cleanup, and the only "insertions" I made were stylistic: a new, relevant-to-the-context image to help readers get through the many pages of text more readily, and clearer rewordings of already-present information. Kenosis and I have since [[User_talk:Kenosis#Intelligent_design|worked out]] the unfortunate misunderstanding on our talk pages, but FeloniousMonk has been uncommunicative, so it seems I'll have to give up on waiting for a clarification from him (and from [[User:Jim62sch]], who seems more interested in a fight than in discussion or cooperation) of what problem he had with my later edits.

I'll gladly discuss any aspect of any of my edits which anyone objects to, but since it's been almost 40 hours and I still have yet to receive even a single specific complaint or nitpick or criticism about any aspect of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60855017&oldid=60854616 the last reverted edits I made], I will begin to resume copyediting the article unless anyone has such an objection. You are free, and always have been, to read through ''all'' of the changes I have made to the article; if for some reason you're having trouble using the edit history tools, then I'll simply provide all the edits in question below, which you can review at your convenience. You are similarly free, obviously, to either fix them yourself (''without'' a blind mass-revert) or point them out so I can fix and/or discuss them; indeed, I welcome such criticism and feedback, as it is infinitely more productive than the vague personal attacks I've been receiving so far in lieu of specific complaints about the actual edits in question.

#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=58301183&oldid=58280951 00:24 13/06/06] &mdash; Copyedit of lead and "intelligent design in summary". Clafiy wording, fix wikilinks, correct grammar, etc. ''(Note that the templates are returned to their original placement in my later edits, per feedback.)''
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60616012&oldid=60610523 06:45 26/06/06] &mdash; Reposting of my previous edit following [[#Bogus popups revert]] Talk page discussion, with a few minor changes, such as to spacing. ''(Note that the editor-note is restored in my later edits, per feedback.)''
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60766851&oldid=60766067 02:25 27/06/06] &mdash; Templates moved back, spacing change, fix typo ("Wikisouce"), restore much-needed and infinitely relevant link to [[evolution]]. ''([[Universal probability bound]] link removed due to subtle edit conflict, subsequently restored.)''
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60807064&oldid=60770827 08:54 27/06/06] &mdash; Templates moved back (''I apparently misinterpreted the [[#Template placement]] Talk page discussion as conclusive''); rename "intelligent design in summary" to "overview" to eliminate unnecessary complexity. Copyedit and trim "Origins of the concept" of minor irrelevant dates, removing excess tangential details about the various philosophers referenced (that's what the wikilinks to their pages are for) which bloated the paragraph. Fix grammar, MoS adherence, clear wording. Remove unintended implication of the end of the second paragraph (that Darwin was somehow part of the proto-ID movement). Add links to more relevant and specific articles referenced (e.g. [[evolution of the eye]], [[evolution of flagella]]), fix wikilinks.
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60808181&oldid=60807064 09:06 27/06/06] &mdash; Merge two short, related paragraphs in "Overview" into one paragraph. Move a paragraph unrelated to the origins of ID from "Origins of the concept" up to "Overview", where it belongs. Add free-use image of [[Thomas Aquinas]], the most famous postulator of the [[teleological argument|argument from design for the existence of God]], to the "origins of the concept" section to liven up the section (thus drawing more readers into the article in general) and improve paragraph aesthetics a bit. Minor copyedits to "origins of the term", such as fixing wikilinks (didn't notice the "telological" typo until yesterday, though), clarify wording and sentence structure, correct grammar and style.
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60813594&oldid=60812766 10:06 27/06/06] &mdash; Revert Jim62sch's previous edit, primarily because [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&oldid=60812766 it had caused the "creationism" template to appear on the page twice] due to sloppy page-checking.
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60826500&oldid=60821952 12:19 27/06/06] &mdash; Resume copyediting the article now that Jim62sch has done his template-revert properly. A few edits to "origins of the concept" to compensate for some newly-added information (though this new information 82.31.176.160 had added was subsequently removed, so it didn't end up mattering). Copyedit "irreducible complexity", fixing grammar, wikilinks, consistent referencing style, and the unclear, redundant wording of "In the context of intelligent design, irreducible complexity..." Add "he asserts" qualifier to Behe's analogical claim that mousetraps are useless if you remove any of their components, since a later reference disputes this assertion.
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60827444&oldid=60826567 12:29 27/06/06] &mdash; Reinstate previous edits to "irreducible complexity" after KillerChihuaha accidentally [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60826567&oldid=60821952 reverts] them due to edit conflict. ''(He was attempting to revert 82.31.176.160's [[Thomas Browne]]-related insertions, but his edit came less than a minute after my own.)'' Also, continue copyedit, fixing a few errors in wikilinks, wording, and consistency in the "specified complexity" section.
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60846450&oldid=60827444 15:01 27/06/06] &mdash; Continuing copyedit, fixing a few misplaced references in the "irreducible complexity" section, and adding link to [[universal probability bound]] in the article, since if it's noteworthy enough for the "see also" list (where it had recently been added) it's presumably noteworthy enough to mention in the article proper. Copyedit "fine-tuned universe" for clarity, word choice, wikilinking, and grammar. Rename poorly-formatted and unencyclopedic section title "The designer or designers" (the section itself doesn't concern itself with the question of singularity v. plurality, so it's also misleading) to simply "Intelligent designer". Copyedit this section as well, fixing wikilinks, sentence structure, consistency in a couple of areas. Change "from which intelligent design proponents can only escape by resorting to religious creationism or logical contradiction" to "from which intelligent design proponents can only escape by resorting to logical contradiction", because the former sentence incorrectly implied that religious creationism is somehow immune to the "[[turtles all the way down]]" [[infinite regress]] problem. Renamed "Intelligent design as movement" to simply "Movement", which works just as well and is clearer and quicker. Add spacing between image and first paragraph to make editing easier. Rename "intelligent design controversy" to just "Controversy" for the same reasons. Shrink overlarge TOC a tad by changing unnecessary subsections of "External links" into simple bolded lines, which work just as well but keep the article tidier.
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60855017&oldid=60854616 16:00 27/06/06] &mdash; In response to FeloniousMonk pointing out the already-present error in the article which I unknowingly echoed when I reworded a certain line (and since no other problem in my edits had, or has, yet been pointed out), reinstate previous copyedits, but with the error in question (the first sentence of "Irreducible complexity") [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60855017&oldid=60846450 fixed]. ''(This subtle error has subsequently been restored to the article when my edits were mass-reverted a second time, without justification.)''

That's all so far. I'll reinstate my copyedit next, if there are no objections to any of the changes listed right above, and then [[User:Silence/ID|continue]] with the much-needed changes. Thank you for your time. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 06:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, I looked over your copyedits and found nothing objectionable. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 10:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
::Thanks. I'm going to continue the copyediting now; if you, or anyone else, does find anything problematic in any of them, tell me about it, and I'll gladly make whatever changes are necessary. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 10:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
:::There was only mild consensus for one single change, so I've reverted your mass rewrite of the article without consensus again.

:::Dumping a laundry list on us of what you think needs to be changed that's 5 or 6 paragraphs long and expecting us here to sort through it is ridiculous. Post your proposals one at a time, and work toward consensus for each, then place it in the article. That's how this article came to be where it is. Also, lack of response to proposed changes is not consent. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 15:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::Y'know, I tried explaining that, in almost those words, before. As far as concepts go, it isn't exactly [[M-Theory]] is it? [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 21:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::When I made my edits without writing up a detailed laundry list of exactly what changes I was making, I was bitched at for being sneaky and hiding all my changes (sure, having all the changes immediately and easily accessible in the edit history is "hiding" them... I guess that makes every Wikipedia editor in the world a lying sneak..), and my edits were ignored and dismissed. When I took the time to write up a detailed, elaborate rationales and lists of all the individual changes in each edit, I was bitched at for writing "pseudo-doctoral theses" and "dumping a laundry list on us", and my edits were ignored and dismissed. '''There is ''literally'' no pleasing you people.'''
::::So now I have to waste months of time (both my own and other users') painstakingly sifting through one or two comma-fixes and wikilink-hops and sentence-clarifications a week, to do what would otherwise only take a day or two? I'm fully willing to discuss ''any'' of the changes I make which anyone has any sort of specific objection to; I'm willing to compromise, I'm willing to reason, and I'm willing to accept new ideas and recommendations for how best to improve the article. But I'm not going to jump through hoops to pass uncontroversial, simple, and utterly routine copyedits which ''noone actually objects to'' through your arbitrary standards just for the privilege of being allowed to improve [[WP:PWN|your article]]. There are a limited number of hours in a day. I'd rather spend them improving articles and discussing ways to improve articles than rephrasing my "laundry list" in 17 different ways and spreading them out over a ridiculously long span of time because you're too lazy to read them&mdash;or to read my actual edits to the article. I came here to improve an encyclopedia to the best of my ability, not to waste days sifting through meaningless bureaucratic hurdles. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::Well, if you think working with other editors in achieving consensus is nothing more than "sifting through meaningless bureaucratic hurdles," then you might want to reconsider your goal. Apparently you failed to read what it says at the top of this page - "'''This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. Please read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them.'''" Your sense of entitlement for your personal edits is nothing more than a form of carte blanche. I can't begin to tell you how many hours, days and weeks I had to debate to get my early edits into this article. Kenosis can say the same. Are you special?

:::::We're addressing the points you've raised here. We've nearly completed discussion on the first one already. Patience my friend. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 15:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:''"Well, if you think working with other editors in achieving consensus"'' - Strawman. What ''I'' have been repeatedly asking for (and denied) is working with other editors to achieve consensus: I've asked for ''actual criticisms'' of any of the edits I've made that have been reverted, so I can respond and we can work out the problem together and come to an agreement, then move on to the next one. What you've requested in the exact ''opposite'' of "working with other editors in achieving consensus": you want me to waste months of time mining over trivial, simple copyedits that noone has any problem with because you're too lazy to read through a simple, easily-accessible list of 10 edits that I spent hours of time out of my day to provide you with. I'll gladly spend all the time you want going over each and every one of those edits, if you have a problem with any of the textual changes in them. If you prefer to work methodically and slowly, feel free to start off with problems in the changes I made in the first edit, then move on to the next one, etc., and I'll fully discuss the issues with you until we can come to an agreement. But I'm not going to waste both my time and everyone else's by listing, and relisting and rerelisting the exact same information over and over again, stretched out for no real purpose over ridiculous lengths of time when we ''could'', instead, be continuing to improve the article. By wasting time on things we ''don't'' disagree on (such as, in all likelihood, 99% of the changes I made in my above edits), we leave ourselves no time to fully discuss things we ''do'' disagree on (such as the templates and images). Thus far, noone has objected to or in any way criticized ''any'' textual change I've made to the article; the only objections have been related to template-placement and image-placement, both of which I've stopped adding to the article now that there are concrete objects to talk over. So why waste so much time on such trivial, obvious changes? My edits are not "substantial" in that they make any major ''changes'' to the text! They only ''appear'' substantial because they're such a large ''number'' of minor, obvious grammatical fixes and style/consistency fiddlings. The ''topic'' of this article is controversial, but the ''Manual of Style'' and the ''grammar of the English language'' are not! And since just about ''all'' of my above edits relate to the MoS or basic English language principles, ''not'' to intelligent design itself, your concern is fundamentally misplaced here. I've made the exact same edits to hundreds of other articles, and never once have I received a major complaint. Ironically, I haven't received a complaint from ''here'', either&mdash;noone's actually objected to any of my textual changes. You just objected to the fact that I dared to make them without The King's Royal Seal having been stamped on them after months of redundant bureaucratic haggling: you haven't cited any actual problems or substantial issues, you've merely protested that I dared to edit the article [[WP:OWN|without your specific written approval]]. As such, your meta-objections are superficial and bureaucratic, not significant, article-related critiques. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
::I think Silence has a point. Felonious Monk, you claim he has edited without consensus, but apathy is no excuse. I don't see many people in a big hurry on this talk page to substantively dispute Silence's attempted changes. When a person suggests changes on a talk page, waits a reasonable amount of time, recieves no reply, and goes ahead and edits the article ''in good faith'', that is not editing "against consensus", because the consensus is apparently ''apathy''. If the consensus fails to present its opinion in a timely manner, it follows that the consensus must not care much about the edit in question. Ignoring an editor cannot be used as a way to withhold consensus. If you're going to revert Silence's edits, it is your responsibility to provide a cogent argument against them here. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 18:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Sorry, but the assumption of "apathy" is a rather bogus one. Most of us have other articles we work on (as well as jobs IRL) -- we don't hover around this article waiting to see who edits it next, and whether their edits are valid. Besides, where's the fire? Is there a compelling reason Silence wants to design this article in his own image in less than 6 days?
:::Also, what, pray tell, is a "reasonable amount of time"? An hour? A day? A week?
:::Finally, that Silence edited the article "in good faith" is of course an assumption that may or may not be warranted (yes, yes, yes, AGF is one of the cornerstones of wiki, but as someone pointed out earlier, it is not a suicide pact). As far as editing against consensus, the statement at the top of this page, the statement pointed out by FM, covers that -- read the talk page, which, while not being pointed out specifically, includes the archives. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 21:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


:::Thank you, Kasreyn. I don't exactly object to the fact that Felonious took: there's no time limit on objecting to edits, he's completely free to criticize any aspect of any of my edits whenever he wants. The problem, rather, is that he ''still hasn't done so'': he's repeatedly reverted dozens of edits without ever even once pointing out any problem with the textual copyediting I (and, recently, Jim) have been working on. The problem isn't so much that he's apathetic to the changes as that he's apathetic to ''discussing'' them: he has had plenty of opportunity to do so, but he seems more interested in edit-warring and ultimatums than in consensus-building and compromise, despite his rhetoric to the contrary. I don't hold that against him: it's completely understandable to grow increasingly attached to a certain version of an article over time, when you've worked so hard on it. But at the point where it gets in the way of any real progress occuring, and where it has no basis in any real content dispute, it goes from being just an annoying diversion to being an actual harmful force freezing the article from any improvement. That's no good, chaps. :/ [unsigned by [[User:Silence]] 29 June 2006]

:::There's been ample discussion of the first of Silence's proposed changes at [[Talk:Intelligent_design#Problems_at_end_of_.22controversy.22_section]]. I'll tell you the same thing I told Silence at my talk page: It's his method that's the problem there. I actually agree with many of his points, but they need to be discussed as this is not a simple subject. Silence shouldn't assume that no one responding to ''all'' of his proposals after 36-48 hours indicates consent; to do is patently unreasonable considering the number of proposed changes he dumped here. There has been ongoing discussion there of the first of his proposed changes, with the result being there is no consensus on that first point. It was still being discussed when he decided to rewrite almost the entire article. Taking that to mean that he can yet again force in a massive rewrite of many points and it should not be reverted is what's causing his problems here, not me, or Jim, or Kenosis, or anyone else. Dumping a laundry list 7 or 8 paragraphs long on us of what he thinks need to be changed and expecting us here to sort through it in a day or two is ridiculous. One-point-at-a-time is the way it is properly done. Again, the absence of response to all proposed changes is not consent and discussion has been taking place. If you or Silence think that it's too slow then there's 1,221,217 other articles here that can be improved in the meantime. If some have ignored his proposals here, and it appears some have, it's not surprising considering his method of huge, mind-numbing proposals. I'll be happy to continue considering and discussing each of his points as I have been, but he's going to have to make the case for each, abide by consensus and work with the present long term editors. Particularly since none of his proposed changes addresses glaring factual errors, rather matters of nuance and style. Our goal here has always been an accurate and stable article, not editing for editing's sake. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 19:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk, there has not been "ample discussion" of my proposed changes, really, at [[#Problems_at_end_of_.22controversy.22_section]]: it's been a rather focused discussion of a single, solitary part of the article which I only recently changed ''after'' gathering support and feedback in the discussion section in question. Your characterization of that discussion is wildly off-base, skewed away from any real understanding of the exchange of ideas that we were having and towards a silly attempt to vilify me with misinterpreted "evidence" of my wrongdoings. I will respond to your misconceptions about that section in the section in question, where there's more room.
*Furthermore, you are either horribly misunderstanding almost everything I've said so far, or deliberately misrepresenting my points; I hope it is the former. You claim that I ''"assume that no one responding to ''all'' of his proposals after 36-48 hours indicates consent"''&mdash;this is patently false. I didn't expect anyone to respond to all of my proposals&mdash;I didn't, in fact, ask that anyone respond to ''any'' of my proposals! All I asked was a very simple, easy request: if you object to any of the textual edits I have made to the article, then say what is wrong with them. Give me an example, ''any example of all'', of something specific you object to about the changes I've made to the article, so we can actually ''discuss'' the matter, rather than just trading blows over nothingness. And after what has actually been ''16 days'' since I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=58301183&oldid=58280951 first] started editing this article!, and ''53 hours'' since FeloniousMonk first (deliberately) reverted my copyedits, I ''still'' haven't gotten even ''one'' substantial or specific criticism or complaint regarding the copyedit ''itself''. This is remarkable. Surely there is ''something'' about it you disagree with&mdash;hell, even I admit that, as a matter of statistics, ''some'' of my minor edits were probably in error (though I've already corrected the ones I've noticed, such as "telological" and "wikisouce"). So why is there so much difficulty and melodrama in the simple task of concretely explaining what problems you've found with my copyedits, so we can work out a solution? I don't ask that people respond to my proposed changes, only that if they object to an edit, they say what's ''wrong'' with it rather than feebly dismissing it as "lacking consensus". (Since when do English grammar or the Manual of Style require page-by-page, incident-by-incident consensus approval anyway..?)
*''"it's not surprising considering his method of huge, mind-numbing proposals."'' - ... Which I would never have bothered with if you people hadn't ''forced'' me to with repeated threats, personal attacks, insults, and dismissals when I tried to improve the article ''without'' excessive jabbering about it beforehand. As I said above, I can't win: whenever I make a change without discussion, no matter how minor, it's rejected and ignored on principle alone, with no regard for what actually matters (that is, ''the article itself''&mdash;remember?) and I get attacked for it, and whenever I try to start a discussion, it's rejected and ignored as too verbose or not verbose enough or too listy or too paragraphy or too X or too not-X, and I get attacked for it. Lose-lose situation. Pretty much the only way I can actually do anything productive is to give up on ever improving this article altogether, but just move on to somewhere else. And I get the very strong feeling that that's what would make FeloniousMonk happiest of all, since he's made it so clear that he finds my presence and my contributions an unpleasant burden.
*''"Particularly since none of his proposed changes addresses glaring factual errors,"'' - Another example of a lose-lose situation. If I actually made substantial changes to the article, rather than lots of minor copyedits, you'd dismiss them for going against the status quo. But when I make the minor ones, you dismiss them as not important enough. (Incidentally, you are incorrect. I have pointed out at least two glaring factual errors. Both have been deliberately ignored.)
*''"Our goal here has always been an accurate and stable article, not editing for editing's sake."'' - You now owe me an apology, sir. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 20:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:You know, you'd get a lot further here were to be succinct and to the point in your posts. Like I've told you it's your method that's hampered your edits from finding traction here. It's absolutely no wonder no one wants to play ball when you post these long, rambling replies and proposals. Keep it brief or expect little response or support. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 20:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::Alright, I'll keep it brief: stop attacking me, stop insulting me, and stop pushing me around for the hell of it, and state some concrete problems with the copyedits I made so we can start working out how best to improve the article. Succint enough? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 20:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::You could have kept it even briefer had you refrained from accusing others of attacking, insulting, and pushing you around (for the hell of it???? excuse me????). No one has done any of those things, and with that removed from your post all that is left is "we can start working out how best to improve the article." which is all anyone ever wanted to begin with. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 20:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::You are clearly unfamiliar with the discussions that have been going on here, or just have very selective memory. I have been trying for ''days'' to get people (specifically, FeloniousMonk, since he's the only user who's objected to them) to voice concrete points and criticisms of the copyedits that he's repeatedly reverted, and he's again and again evaded and ignored my requests for discussion in favor of dirt-digging, personal attacks, insinuations, and patronizing dismissals. I am starting to get a little bit tired of it. I realize that keeping a controversial article like ID clean of problems takes a lot out of a person, but that's no excuse to take it out on a random editor. If you want something to abuse, buy a punching bag or something. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 20:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't even know how to respond to this. This is trolling and accusations, because you had to wait a few days for everyone who edits this article regularly to weigh in? Might be time for a [[WP:TEA|cup of tea]], Silence. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 20:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::No one is taking anything out on you, Silence -- except maybe yourself. You fail to comprehend, even after being told the same thing by several different people in several different fora, that it is ''your'' methodology that is creating the problem. The victim bit only goes but so far. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 21:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:I have not made any trolling comments whatsoever, nor have I attempted to make accusations or cast blame; I am, quite simply, just not going to continue to ignore the abuse. How long I had to wait had nothing to do with it; being treated like a mass murderer for copyediting a Wikipedia article is what I am growing tired of. Your responsiveness is immensely refreshing, KillerChihuahua, but your criticism is immensely misplaced. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::um... Mass murderer? Methinks thou dost exaggerate just a wee tad. Just a thought. I could be wrong... [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 22:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I haven't really been a contributor to this article, but I just ran across this and it strikes me as absurd. Since when is a whole process and votes and whatnot even required for simple grammar and such copyedits? What a ridiculous situation. Silence, maybe if you were more matter-of-fact on this talk page (more conciseness and less talk of personal attacks and what not), you'd get the discussion about the actual edits you so desire (Which I can't see anywhere on this talk section, despite a lot of other chatter from all the players). Folks like FeloniousMonk, why don't you just read that page of edit summaries Silence wrote up? Sounds like you're saying they're too long for you to bother, but you've spent more than twice as much time writing up replies explaining why you haven't than it would have taken to actually read it. It's a controversial topic but why can't it be handled as civilly as anywhere? I was thinking of doing some grammar and other minor copyedits to mistakes I noticed in this article myself when I came to it, but upon closer inspection doing so would take a hell of a lot more gall and constitution than I have. Kudos to all of you taking the time and mental energy to make a dent in this more difficult and dense sector of the Wikipedia. [[User:DG|D.]] [[User_talk:DG|G.]] 18:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

==Images==
Thanks for the help, Jim! I appreciate your recent edits, such as the wording fix at [[User:Silence/ID]]. However, I must respectfully disagree with your rationale for removing the two new images from the page.

The [[Thomas Aquinas]] image is relevant to the "history of the concept" section, because Aquinas was arguably the most important popularizer of the [[teleological argument|argument from design]], which forms the core intellectual basis (such as it is..) for the ''entire concept'' of intelligent design. Additionally, on an aesthetic&mdash;yet still practical&mdash;level (I am both a [[Wikipedia:WikiGnome|wikignome]] and a [[Wikipedia:WikiFairy|wikifairy]], you'll find), the image (or at least ''some'' image&mdash;I'd object much less to your ''replacing'' the image with a better one than with simply removing it altogether) is ''extremely'' useful for helping break up a long stretch of undifferentiated text, and thus helping draw readers into the article more, making it much more likely that semi-interested users will take the time to read further into the article and become more interested. On that ground, at least, one could argue that we should have an image there unless there's a good reason ''not'' to include it on the page, since if it does no harm and helps liven up a boring expanse of text a little for the sake of our readers, it's a win-win situation. And since the image is free-use, there cannot be any concerns about it ever being legally problematic, unlike the ''Time'' photo (I've seen similar photos removed from several pages on the basis that we can only use such covers if the article is discussing the cover itself, not using the cover to demonstrate or illustrate some idea) and the Phillip Johnson pic (which is less problematic than the ''Time'' image, despite also being fair-use).

As for the photo, I see no justification whatsoever for not including it (or (and/or?) something similar, like another major figure or a DI or CfSaC logo) in the article. The argument that "it's already included in his article, which we link to" is an ''exceedingly'' weak one; by the same logic, our [[Scientology]] article should refrain from including any image of [[L. Ron Hubbard]] in it because it already links to the article for L. Ron Hubbard! Putting a face to one of the key figures in the history of ID and the ID movement is an immensely practical and useful thing to do, not least because it allows people who have seen our article to recognize him. Also, the aesthetic benefits I mentioned above apply here as well (though less dramatically, since it's later in the article and since the ''Time'' image comes soon after). -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 10:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:We've discussed additional images here several times previously, each time there was consensus that they were unnecessary and added little, most recently last month. Please read the archives. The article is already large - way past the ideal article size, at something like 88 kb. This makes it slow to load for those with dial up. Including additional images which add little value only makes it worse. Instead of wasting that bandwidth on PJ, the cover of Pandas, the Hubble Deep Field or the like, something like a Design timeline or concept map would actually add value. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 15:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::This article is actually really not that large. Many Featured Articles are much longer. [[Evolution]], for example, is 80kb long, and has no less than 13 images. [[History of Poland (1945–1989)]], another FA, demonstrates the upper-limit of how image-heavy an article can be while still easy maintaining Featured quality: it has ''30'' images (and used to have several more, before the ''Time'' magazine covers were removed because they only fall under fair-use when the magazine itself is the subject of the article). The overwhelming majority of Wikipedia users will have no problem whatsoever with a 77kb-long article, and no problem with one that has 2&ndash;3 images rather than just 1. An image of the man considered the "founder" of ID is, in any case, surely much more germaine than an image of a random ''Time'' magazine cover that is never once even ''discussed'' in the actual article. Likewise, even Aquinas is discussed at one point in the article. If we're trying to cleanse this article of images for some bizarre reason, why be so inconsistent and arbitrary settle on a ''Time'' cover while ignoring both more concretely relevant images (e.g. the photo of Philip E. Johnson) ''and'' images of less dubious, fair-use provenance (e.g. the painting of Aquinas)? The current image selection seems arbitrary, and the decision to forever ban images from this article seems similarly arbitrary. Only an exceedingly number of readers will be noticeably inconvenienced if we add another image or two to the article, whereas almost ''every'' reader will be inconvenienced if we don't make the article's large amount of text more accessible by illustrating it with a few relevant images. It's ''more'' important, not less, to add images to longer articles! -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Whether it actually ''is'' more important to add images to longer articles is debatable. I've not seen any guideline to that effect. I'm not saying we can't have more images. I'm saying that if we do, because of the size of the article, they should add some value, be more than just smiling faces. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 16:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::And you haven't cited any guideline saying ''not'' to use images in long articles, so I guess that tact is irrelevant. I thought it was just common sense, but maybe that's my background in page layout and design talking; not everyone is as familiar with the principles of a well-balanced page that incorporates both images and text. Regardless, the two images I suggested are not "just smiling faces", they are a photograph of the ID movement's "father" (arguably even more important than the picture of [[Charles Darwin]] on [[evolution]] is, since evolutionary theory has changed significantly since Darwin's day, but ID is still PEJ's clearly baby) and a painting of the scholar who formalized the [[teleological argument|argument from design]] ("the universe exhibits design, ergo there must be a designer") upon which Intelligent Design is based. I'll agree that we could find ''better'' images to illustrate ID with, but contend that these two are certainly better than ''nothing'', and furthermore would point out that they're much more clearly relevant to and appropriate for the article than the ''Time'' magazine cover is. Aquinas and Johnson (especially Jonhson!) are both discussed in the article at various points, but the ''Time'' cover is not (nor should it probably be, but I'm just pointing out how arbitrary the image selection seems to be). -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::I shouldn't have to, you've been around long enough to be familiar with policy. We simply do not agree, and this will be decided by consensus. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 20:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::I see no reason for the pics of Aquinas and Johnson. If we add any pics to this article, they'd best be explaining something, not fluff. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 21:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

==In-depth copyedit analysis and discussion, part 1: Lead section==
[[User:FeloniousMonk]] has requested (more like demanded) that I go through each and every single one of the hundreds of trivial edits I've recently made to the [[Intelligent design]] article before he will permit them to be added to the page, even though noone (himself included) has actually objected to any aspect of even one of these textual copyedits, and even though I've already spent hours providing an in-depth, useful, easy-to-navigate, and concise listing of links, timestamps, and detailed and accurate descriptions of all my edits at [[#Copyedit]] in response to requests for such a detailing of my changes to the page, which he immediately ignored out-of-hand as "dumping a laundry list". Assuming the rest of you agree that this inane bureaucratic exercise is necessary (if not, do feel free to speak up), I will now begin listing off all of the edits, one group at a time, for in-depth discussion. Here are the lead section (a.k.a. "intro") edits I've made (first wave):

#Delink [[universe]] in first sentence. This is a very broad article that is only tangentially related to what is being discussed in this section. Overlinking is explicitly and strongly discouraged by [[Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context]].
#Delink [[life|living things]] in first sentence. Same rationale as "universe". Having too many links clutters up the page, whereas by having only a few links, you focus readers' attention much more on the links you ''do'' chose to include, thus making it much more likely that they'll check out the truly relevant and significant pages in question. By not overwhelming readers with vague links like "universe" and "life" from the get-go, you increase the changes that they'll pay attention to links like [[intelligent designer]] and [[Discovery Institute]].
#Change piped link <nowiki>[[Argument from design|intelligent cause]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[intelligent designer|intelligent cause]]</nowiki>. First of all, [[argument from design]] is just a redirect to [[teleological argument]]. Second of all, this is an unnecessary violation of the [[principle of least astonishment|principle of least surprise]], in that no user will be able to predict that they are being directed to a page on the teleological argument from the context of the link. If anything, they will expect a link to an article about the "intelligent cause" which ID believes is the source of the design in the universe, and the article for ''that'' topic is [[intelligent designer]]. If we want a link to [[teleological argument]] in the lead, we should make it explicit and readily available to new readers, not [[Wikipedia:Piped_link#Easter_eggs|buried]] behind layers of subtext. I've also already addressed this issue at [[#Bogus popups revert]].
#Move comma from after ref number ("Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute[2], say that") to before it ("Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that"). Standard style (including in this article already) for inline refs of this sort is to have the comma, period, etc. before, not after, the ref marker. No reason to be randomly inconsistent here.
#Restore link to [[evolution]] in the intro. For some reason, all references to evolution were removed from the lead section at some point, even though ID is by far most noteworthy for its opposition to and criticism of evolutionary theory. I suspect that someone misread the line that linked to [[evolution]] as saying that ID's theories actually ''are'' on equal footing with the theory of evolution, when it actually says that that's what ID proponents ''claim'' to be the case (which is true): "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute, say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the '''evolution and''' origin of life." Bolded text is the addition. I've also already addressed this issue at [[#Bogus popups revert]].
#Change "An overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience or junk science." to "An overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design as pseudoscience or junk science." Not really necessary and quite redundant in the context of the overall lead, as it immediately follows what was already the explanation that ID falsely claims to be a scientific theory. The reason this is unnecessary is the same reason it is unnecessary to say "Sally thinks the flower is red. Billy thinks the flower is not red, but blue." Simply saying "Sally thinks the flower is red. Billy thinks the flower is blue." is usually sufficient; English grammar accounts for the rest, it's implied in a normal situation&mdash;and "scientific theory" directly contradicts "pseudoscience/junk science", whereas it's hypothetically possible for a flower to be both red and blue, so the example is even weaker than the actual situation. However, if there are worries that the lead isn't quite clear enough without being 100% explicit about ID not being a scientific theory, I could see an argument for keeping the clause; I just don't think it's really necessary, the text flows more smoothly and is perfectly clear without it. I've also already addressed this issue at [[#Bogus popups revert]].
#Remove space between end of first sentence of second paragraph and accompanying ref, again in keeping with inline-ref conventions. "as pseudoscience[5] or junk science. [6]" becomes "as pseudoscience[5] or junk science.[6]".
#Change piped link <nowiki>[[scientific experiment|experiment]]</nowiki> to simply <nowiki>[[experiment]]</nowiki> There is no [[scientific experiment]] article, it's just a redirect to [[experiment]].
#I created the eighth ref/note (to more clearly back up the third paragraph's claims than a subtle, well-hidden interwiki link), and then fixed a typo in it. That typo ([[Wikisouce]] rather than [[Wikisource]]) is currently still on the main page, thanks to Felonious repeatedly mass-reverting most of my edits.

If anyone objects to any of these changes, I'll gladly discuss them at length. If not, I'll move on to the next group, and then the next, and then the next.. I do love efficiency, mm. :F -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:9 new points to discuss? You've got to be kidding me. We're still trying to hammer out the first point from [[Talk:Intelligent_design#Problems_at_end_of_.22controversy.22_section|your first five from yesterday]]. Thanks for just proving my point:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIntelligent_design&diff=61246858&oldid=61236495] Oh, and [[WP:POINT]]. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 20:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::Silence, your whole tone ("[FM] has requested (more like demanded) that I go through each and every single one of the hundreds of trivial edits I've recently made...no one...has objected") is adversarial. While I appreciate your desire for efficiency, running roughshod over longstanding editors on this article is hardly worth the "time saved." Making a stack of edits and then merrily proceeding to make more because no one '''has had time to figure out what you've done and whether or not they object''' is not productive. Complaining because it has been suggested you allow people the necessary time is counter-productive. I am delighted to hear that you have made such progress on efficiency. Perhaps you might consider working on patience, civility, and respect for your fellow editors. Quite frankly, I suggest you take the time to discuss your changes, one at a time, not in wholesale lots, instead of your blitzkrieg method of editing. This is not a forgotten article which was pasted in as an essay and received little attention since, where your boldness would doubtless be welcome. Nor is it an article which is badly organized, unsourced, and the muddled result of an army of POV pushers, where any organization and copyediting would be an improvement. If you have suggestions which will improve the article, I am certain I speak for all editors here in saying we welcome them. We welcome them being posted on the talk page, for discussion, and acheiving consensus '''before''' and not '''after''' you have made them. One puppy's opinion. Now I'm going to go read over each of your suggested edits, taking the time I need to evaluate them. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 20:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::My tone sounds adversarial because I have been treated as an adversary. Read the other conversations on this Talk page (not to mention [[Template:Intelligent Design]] and the [[Intelligent design]] edit history). If my breathing sounds heavy after I've been dodging attacks for days straight, assume it's out of weariness, not aggression.
:::''"running roughshod over longstanding editors on this article is hardly worth the 'time saved.'"'' - I have done no such thing. My criticism is of the time and energy wasted in listing hundreds of trivial edits which noone has objected to, and which are already easily accessible in the [[#Copyedit]] section I took the time to create (upon request) if anyone is remotely interested. I would rather spend time discussing disputed edits than listing dozens and dozens of profoundly mundane and obvious ones. Unfortunately, I cannot know which edits are disputed when noone has yet disputed them! You are the first user to take the time to actually criticize any change I've made; for that, I thank you very much. If you had been here in the first day of this silly power struggle of FM's, I have no doubt that we'd have been able to easily resolve the issue and spend our time on improving the article, as I hoped, rather than pointless arguing.
:::''"Making a stack of edits and then merrily proceeding to make more''" - The edits are almost without exception simple and stylistic (and the exact same sort that I've made in the past, without any complaint or controversy, to ''hundreds'' of articles, including many that are much more contentious and heavily-vandalized than this one by far!), and I went to great lengths to ensure that every single one of them could be ''easily'' viewed by simply comparing two versions of the edit history. I have no doubt that anyone could skim over most of them in a half hour (or less) and isolate the significant ones. It is the in-depth analysis of the trivial comma-placement and wikilink-redirecting edits that will waste time, whereas simply looking over the actual edits in question would allow one to immediately isolate whichever ones anyone feels are worthy of discussion. If anyone wanted me to slow down so they could take the time to look over my past edits, they ''easily could have said so'': not once did anyone say, for example, "hey, Silence, wait another three days before making any more edits, so we have time to look over the ones you've just made in detail, OK?", or "hey, Silence, hold off on editing for the next day or two, we need some time to go over these first." The only response was complete silence, for days at a time, to the extent that it was painfully obvious that noone was ever going to bother to check over my edits; they found it much easier simply to mass-revert them (with a threatening and antagonistic message, just to be nice) and then move on to more important matters. That is not how Wikipedia editors are meant to interact.
:::''"Complaining because it has been suggested you allow people the necessary time is counter-productive."'' - Nobody has suggested this. You are the first person. And certainly nobody has ever asked for ''a certain length'' of time in order to go over the articles. You are making a lot of dramatic, and profoundly incorrect, assumptions about how people have been responding to my edits over the last few days. Your mistake is understandable, because what you're describing is how one would expect any reasonable people to respond in such a situation. It simply ''didn't happen''. I guess people were having an off day or two?
:::''"Perhaps you might consider working on patience, civility, and respect for your fellow editors."'' - You would be most wise to direct this comment to certain other peoples involved in this dispute. I have gone to great lengths to attempt to diffuse the problem, to point out how much respect and good faith I have for the other editors on this page, and to avoid responding to the ''countless'' goading, barbed attacks I've been barraged with lately, without provocation. You have essentially walked in on a man who was just slapped in the face nine times, and did nothing, and now raises his hand to stop the soon-to-come tenth slap, upon which point you cast judgment upon the slapped man for raising his hand in violence. I am not saying that I am blameless, but your comments are unintentionally hilarious in their timing and misdirection. I feel like I'm in a Sylvester & Tweety cartoon or something; quite surreal.
:::''"where your boldness would doubtless be welcome"'' - [[WP:BOLD|Boldness]] is welcome on all Wikipedia articles. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia&diff=49007738&oldid=48976688 That's what Wikipedia is about.] No article is "finished"; all need improvements. I am glad to discuss and compromise on my various suggestions (as I've said dozens of times already on this page), but I need to hear ''critical feedback'', not the vague insults and threats I've gotten so far, in order to be ''able'' to discuss or compromise on anything.
:::''"Nor is it an article which is badly organized, unsourced, and the muddled result"'' - I never said it was. It's an excellent article. That's a big part of the reason I took the time to try and make its excellentness more even and thorough. And it's a big part of the reason most of my edits have been exceedingly minor and simple; I deliberately went out of my way to avoid making any significant changes to just about any of the content of the article.
:::''"I am certain I speak for all editors here in saying we welcome them."'' - Then, if my experience here so far is an indication of anything, you're certainty is misplaced, I'm sorry to say. :/ I appreciate ''your'' kind words, though. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::OK, I officially give up on discussing things with Silence. Despite being asked to be brief he still insists on posting War and Peace every 20 minutes. More like Ulysses, actually. If he starts discussing the article, starts making sense, and keeps it short and factual I'll participate. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 21:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::Hey, don't insult James Joyce, ''Ulysses'' is one of my favorite books! ;) But yes, until the neredlessly long posts end, there's no point in talking anymore. Sylvester and Tweety? [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 21:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::Silence's remarks seem to make sense to me. He ''was'' discussing the article until the topic became his own edits, then he discussed that. He appears to feel he's under attack. In such circumstances, I don't see how he can be blamed for a desire to rebut his opponents. And I don't think you have any right to dictate terms on his writing style. I have a tendency to be verbose myself. Such wordiness often arises from an intense desire for precision, for one's words to be incontrovertible and impossible to misunderstand. I understand that perfectly. I've seen both you (FM) and Silence in action on other articles, and I think you're two of the best editors ''at'' this place. You really ought to both chill a bit. I propose that you both start over, swallow your pride a bit, and work together. This contentiousness serves no purpose. Silence, please stop thinking you're under attack; FM has a good point that we need to consider every change ''very'' carefully, in my opinion because of the constant pressure the article is under from would-be POV pushers who wander in. FM, please take the time to read what Silence has to say; since you asked for him to be very detailed, it ill behooves you to now refuse to read it. Best to you both, [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 23:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::::Again, thanks for the support. I'm OK with them criticizing me for my verbosity, though. You are correct that it arises from a desire on my part to not be misunderstood, but in practice, as seen above, it seems that such efforts are useless. It is true that it is an unfortunate vice of mine, and while they did request that I be detailed, they also, apparently, want me to be detailed in bite-sized little bits spread out over a long span of time, so I suppose they're at least being consistent in their requests now. I don't care so much if they want to criticize me, as long as they take a look at my edits at the same time so we can make some actual progress on the article in the meantime, and, thank god, that's now happening for the first time thanks to KillerChihuahua's arrival. So I can take a little more chastisement if it means finally getting down to business with respect to the article itself; sticks and stones. I will take your words to heart, and "chill". :D There is no real point in all this drama and angst and squabbling over a simple copyedit. If discussion is needed, then we will discuss. I eagerly await more feedback on these edits, and as soon as y'all want me to move on to the next batch, I will do so.
::::::Incidentally, you are a great mediator. Although both you and Chihuahua provided a very valuable outside perspective into the matter, unlike KC, you were able to criticize both sides of the dispute, and your words have been moderate enough to be the sort of advice people will take to heart, rather than putting them on the defensive (as KC inadvertantly did by vilifying me as the sole offending party in the dispute, though I don't hold it against him). If you haven't already, you should totally try out [[Wikipedia:Mediation|mediation]], you're a natural. :D -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 08:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

My take on edits 1 - 9:
# Delinking universe: I am agnostic on this change.
# Delinking living things: Mild Object: This article is about a proposed explanation of the development of living things, and as such the link is appropriate.
# [[Argument from design|intelligent cause]] to [[intelligent designer|intelligent cause]]. Works for me. I think the old redirect went elsewhere, and it made more sense when first implemented.
# Comma before ref. Style issue, support.
# Support linking first instance of [[evolution]].
# Strongly object. At least 5 pages worth of the archives are on this one line, and the clarifier is necessary. (Overwhelming majority, everyone's favorite line.)
# Style issue (extra space) support.
# Again, must have been a change in redirect. In this case I think it would be better left as is, so if it is split again the link still directs to correct article. (scientific experiment|experiment)
# I will need to follow the ref and compare, no comment currently on proposed change. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 20:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::2. It's equally about a proposed explanation for the origin of the universe (the [[intelligent designer]] is almost always proposed to have created both life and a universe to accomodate it&mdash;hence the [[fine-tuned universe]] concept&mdash;so I see no strong reason to link to one and not the other. A link to [[origin of life]] (which we already have in the lead anyway) is much more relevant, specific, and useful than one to the vague topic of [[life]].
::6. Alright, if you want. I think it's clearer in the simpler format, and I don't see listing archive numbers as a very strong argument (remember to imagine justifying things to a ''reader'', not a fellow editor; readers are the ones we are writing for!), but I don't have any strong opinions about this change. Feel free to revert it. (It's currently implemented in the article, because Felonious's revert was so haphazard.)
::8. I'm guessing that it will never be split again. The <s>[[evidence]]</s> [[experiment]] article is ''solely'' about <s>evidence</s> experiments in a <s>philosophical and</s> scientific context<s>, and it's stub,</s> so it's highly unlikely to be divided up in the foreseeable future. If it makes you feel better, though, I'll put the <s>"evidence"</s>"experiment" page on my watchlist, and if it ever gets split into scientific/non-scientific pages, I'll make the change to the more specific article. OK? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
:::''(Sorry, mixed up [[evidence]] and [[experiment]] momentarily in the above paragraph.)'' -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 12:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Incidentally, tell me when you want part 2 of the copyedit posted. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::On 2: Then link both or link neither, I will go with consensus on this one. As it is currently both, leave as is unless there is strong consensus to change.
::::On 6: The archives were mentioned because a great deal of work and editing back and forth went into this, certainly not as some kind of argument. The arguments are ''in'' those archives.
::::On 8: Stand by my position. It goes where it supposed to now; it will go where it is supposed to if the article is ever split.
::::On part 2 - wait until others have voiced their positions on these edits. One step at a time, I promise the world will not end. Go rewrite something neglected off of [[Wikipedia:Cleanup]] to pass the time, eh? [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 22:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::2: Actually, currently neither one is linked&mdash;check the [[Intelligent design]] page. As I mentioned, the revert was haphazard. Some of the earlier parts of my copyedit got left on the page. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

KC is ONE editor. ONE. We're going to need a lot more than ONE editor agreeing on item number two. And you may have to wait a bit before everyone weighs in. Relax. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:It was just a simple question. You can chill on the caps. I'll wait as long as it takes. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

*My opinion on proposed edits above:
:1. This delink of [[universe]] in first paragraph is apparently already done at the moment. If it had been done by itself with an edit summary containing, say, "rem unnecessary link", or with the same justification as just offered above on talk, I think your change would have remained.
:2. This link could stay or go and makes very little difference to the article.
:3. This link (superimposed on the words “intelligent cause”) is unnecessary, period. As with many unnecessary links, commonly we tolerate them.
:4. comma? absolutely yes.
:5. The link to [[evolution]] makes more sense to me, much more sense than any link at all from the words “intelligent cause”. Links come, links go. NP by me as long as it doesn’t pipe to, say [[Lamarckian evolution]], [[feces]], etc..
:6. I wouldn’t recommend even trying. This sentence has been hashed, rehashed, re-rehashed, and re-rehashed yet again, as well as yet yet again, as well as ... .
:7. Absolutely, NP.
:8. Link directly to [[experiment|esperiment]]? Absolutely, absolutely yes! These are the kinds of edits that if made one at a time with a quick edit note, are appreciated by virtually all unless there’s some overriding reason for the contrary.
:9. By all means correct the misspelling in the footnote. Anyone who disagrees with such a change will have to deal with all the rest of us.

:That said, these are not the changes that attracted all the attention. Seeing an image of Aquinas and Phillip Johnson suddenly appear, however, along with other more significant changes implemented simultaneously, as you might imagine, caught some attention and raised a few questions. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 12:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

*Note that the only reason "universe" and "living things" are currently delinked on the main page is because I made that change, and it was one of the few changes that got missed during FeloniousMonk's mass-reverts. And, the main reason we don't need a link to "[[life]]" is because we already have more specific links in the lead for the two most relevant ''aspects'' of life in ID: [[evolution]] and the [[origin of life]].
*As for 8, yes, I don't understand KC's objection to a direct link; I'm glad we agree that just linking to [[experiment]] is simpler and more convenient for both editors and readers. The reason not to link to a nonexistent, hypothetical article like [[scientific experiment]] is the same reason we have no reason to link to an article like [[scientific theory]]: the [[theory]] article ''is'' scientific, and almost certainly always will be. Let's reserve the "scientific X" links for articles that actually ''do'' have separate pages for that concept, like [[scientific evidence]].
*So, to sum up so far: it sounds like everyone agrees on changes 4, 5, and 7 at this point. (Though note that [[User:LexCorp]] briefly [[#Bogus popups revert|objected]] to 5 a week ago, though his rationale has been refuted several times since.) People seem to be mostly neutral on changes 1 and 2, though KC has a "mild object" to 2 (which I think I've addressed by pointing out that we already effectively link to the "development of living things" via [[origin of life]] and [[evolution]]; a link to [[life]] would thus be [[Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context|superfluous]]). KC supports 3, whereas Kenosis thinks we should eliminate any linkage from "intelligent cause" altogether (though both agree that the current link to [[argument from design]] is off-base). There is agreement not to mess around with 6 because it's been overdebated so much in the past to come to the current state, so that edit should probably be rejected, at least for now. Kenosis strongly supports 8 (as do I), whereas KC seems to have a slight objection (though I don't see the grounds for it; there is no possible benefit in linking to unlikely hypothetical article titles that will probably never exist). And Kenosis agrees with fixing the "Wikisouce" spelling error, but so far no comments on the 8th ref itself, so that's currently a "neutral". Looks like we'll need a few more users' comments before we can settle on which changes to implement. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 12:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
::Pardon me, Silence, but this is already too much arguing over these in my opinion. Please make these edits ''one at a time'' with a reasonable justification for each. All on this list of 9 appear to be fair game except for #6. The ones other editors disagree with will be reverted, and if yet others agree with you some may get reinstated-- that's just the way it is in a controversial article, or any article. Keep it down to a manageable number of specific small edits per day (as an example, say, no more than three or four individual, specific small changes per day at this stage of the article's development, or a single substantive change per day) and give the other participants a chance to look at them and respond if they choose. That would be my recommendation. Other than #6, these edits above obviously are different from suddenly seeing Aquinas and Johnson pop up out of nowhere and footnotes changed and the introduction changed, etc. Sure there is a technical right to make mass edits, and there's also a technical right for many other editors to say "no way". ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 13:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Um, why the hostility? I'm not "arguing", I'm discussing. I already agreed with you on 6&mdash;even though I think the sentence flows a bit better shortened, there's clearly enough opposition to it that there's no need to implement it. I don't see how any of the comments you made above are relevant to anything I said, nor how I have ever disputed that this article is "controversial" or that other editors don't have the right (free speech?) to say "no way". Maybe you misunderstood my tone or message..? I was just replying to comments, then summing up where we're at (since others might have trouble keeping up with the discussion) so as to more easily address the remaining points... You've been extremely helpful so far, so why does it sound like the above comment is trying to pick a fight? O_o; And why do you keep referencing the Aquinas and Johnson images? We already have a thread for discussing those above, and consensus seems to be to at ''least'' hold off on adding new images for a while. You seem to somehow ''blame'' me for bringing up these changes on the Talk page because they're so minor, even though I'm only doing exactly what FeloniousMonk and others have instructed. Stranger and stranger. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::Hostility? There was no hostility in Kenosis' reply to you. That you noted any where there was none might be part of the problem here -- you'll get much farther with your ideas if you don't play the victim card so often, especially when there's no evident to support its use. As I told you elsewhere, you have some good ideas, but the presentation of those ideas is problematic. And before you accuse me of being hostile, or jumping all over you, or whatever, let me assure you that I am merely sharing my analysis of what has happened here. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 10:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm still trying to figure out what you're asking me to do here, but it sounds like you're saying "we've discussed these too much already, just make the changes (except for 6), one at a time, with clear justifications and explanations in the edit summary for each". But that's in direct contradiction to what Jim just said: ''"We're going to need a lot more than ONE editor agreeing on item number two. And you may have to wait a bit before everyone weighs in."'' So you chastise me for discussing the changes too much before moving on, and Jim chastises me for discussing them too little before moving on. I'm starting to get used to this pattern... -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Are we on the same talk page? Maybe my computer is displaying something different than that of other participants--must be a malfunction. Well, have a good day, OK?... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 14:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::??? OK... You too. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

::::::Pattern? You mean like "good cop, bad cop"? There's no pattern -- while the regular editors argee on many things, we do not march in lock-step to the tune of some hidden dark agenda that includes "beating up on Silence".
::::::In any case, since we have a section (and rightly so) on [[Fine-tuned universe]], I disagree with delinking universe (<font color="red">Item # 2</font>).
::::::<font color="red">Item # 6</font> -- I agree with KC and Kenosis -- not a good idea. The others are OK. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 10:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
:By the same logic, Jim, we should have a link to [[movement]] and [[controversy]] in the article, since those words are also used in section titles. Your criteria for including a link, especially a link in the very first sentence of the very first paragraph of the article, seem to be rather too low. It is sufficient to have a link to [[universe]] in the [[fine-tuned universe]] article&mdash;''that'' is an example of proper distribution of wikilinks, where [[universe]] is clearly specifically relevant to the [[fine-tuned universe]] article, and [[fine-tuned universe]] is clearly specifically relevant to the [[intelligent design]] article, but that doesn't make [[universe]] specifically relevant to [[intelligent design]], for the same reason that [[plant]] links to [[life]], and [[botany]] links to [[plant]], but [[botany]] doesn't link to [[life]]: specific relevance, for the purposes of wikilinking, is not inherited via related topics. However, if you strongly feel that we need a link to [[universe]] somewhere in the article, why not just add a link to it in the "Fine-tuned universe" section, rather than in the very first sentence of the article, where it's especially important that we not flood readers with vaguely relevant links and have them miss more specifically relevant ones? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 10:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
:Moreover, the [[universe]] article doesn't even ''mention'' [[fine-tuned universe]], or, indeed, anything related to creationism, much less ID. Much like [[life]] doesn't mention anything related to ID or creationism in the article, though [[evolution]] does. That gives you an indicator of how irrelevant such a vague, general article is to a distantly-related topic like this, and how unnecessary it is to link to it in the first sentence of the article. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 11:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Items 1-4 were already implemented. I implemented #5 (link to first instance of "evolution", which is in third paragraph). Items #7 and #8 were already implemented. Item #9 is already covered by a direct link to the case in the body text. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 16:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
:I will assume that you simply misunderstood what #5 is, and are not intentionally deceiving anyone. You have not implemented #5. Edit #5 is to link to [[evolution]] at the end of the first paragraph, at the same point where [[origin of life]] is linked to ("the [[evolution]] and [[origin of life]]."). I don't see why you linked to a later mentioning of [[evolution]] rather than either implementing the change that was actually discussed, or voicing your own opinion as to whether (or how) you feel it should be implemented. I guess you were just confused, again..? And, #9 is implemented (along with several of the others) because it's one of the changes I made that wasn't reverted. (Or rather, it was half-reverted, hence the "Wikisouce" error, but FM has recently fixed that mistake.) #6 is also implemented for the same reason, so, whether or not the change has already been implemented is not a fair determinant of whether the edit is accepted; which edits were and weren't reverted seems to have been random. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
::RE #5: Then change it, or instead continue to find reasons to argue about it with everybody. <s>[[Caveat emptor]] for [[WP:AGF|buying into this particular discussion]] in the first place. My mistake. But it's all there in the relevant edit histories.</s>... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 17:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Um? I don't understand the meaning of the above comment. Could you clarify what you are suggesting, exactly? I'd rather discuss it then change it, because I figure I'll be jumped on at this point if I make any edit whatsoever to [[Intelligent design]], and it'll just be reverted. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 18:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
::::"I guess you were just confused, again..?" -- the again was unnecessary, thus Kenosis' "caveat emptor" was rather apropos. Caveat lectores redactoresque: verba tua miscontruant, ergo volite illa pensitare.

My opinion on points 1 thru 9:
# OK.
# No.
# OK.
# OK.
# OK.
# No.
# OK.
# OK.
# No, already fixed.
[[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 19:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

:So we're mostly agreed on the changes, except for #2. I say the link to [[life]] is as redundantly vague as the [[universe]] one, and that we don't need it because we link to [[evolution]] and [[origin of life]] in the same paragraph. Kenosis says it makes "very little difference", and is neutral. Chihuahua agrees with you, saying "This article is about a proposed explanation of the development of living things". However, if ID is a proposed explanation of the ''development'' of living things, then the links to [[evolution]] and [[origin of life]], which describe that development of living things (in both senses of the word), are all that we really need to provide readers. So, I think not linking to "life" here would be preferable. However, I don't have strong feelings on the matter, so if you strongly prefer the link, I won't push.
:Incidentally, a side-question: how many minor changes would you prefer I list in each "chunk" for discussion? I don't want to list too many, and have people overwhelmed, or too few, and waste too much time. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 19:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Please list your next four. Thank you. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 21:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

:Next four? OK. I'll go make "part 2" now. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 06:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

== "Non-ID perspectives" linking concern ==

Fellow Wikipedians,

I have a concern about a link under the section titled [[Intelligent_design#Non-ID_perspectives|"Non-ID perspectives"]] on this Wikipedia 'Intelligent design' article.

The linked titled [http://www.intelligent-forces.com/intelligent-design-criticism.htm "A Criticism of Intelligent Design"], described as an "Article analyzing ID Theory," is a website that, in my analysis, has disqualifying concerns:

* '''Not factual.''' --- The site venomously trashes Sir Issac Newton, who, ironically, is the one thinker credited with elucidating the very idea the site is trying to promote (see the lead line and following of the Wikipedia article [[Intelligent falling]] for more).
* '''Not relevant.''' --- Intelligent-forces.com is listed as a ""Anti-Gravity" parody website" in the external links of Wikipedia's "Intelligent falling" article, and this spoof site contains accounts of claimed historical events and which apparently never happened (e.g. there [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Road+Telecommunications+Bill%22&btnG=Google+Search seems to be no "Road Telecommunications Bill,"] [http://www.intelligent-forces.com/events.htm touted here], they do not actually sell the clothes they say they have "[http://www.intelligent-forces.com/resources.htm in stock]," and their [http://www.intelligent-forces.com/resources.htm Book of the Month], "Newton: History's Greatest Monster," [http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&q=%22Newton%3A+History%27s+Greatest+Monster%22&btnG=Search is not a book in print], etc.).
* '''Not ethical or lawful.''' --- The site's author(s) claim to exercise practices that violate US federal laws, and probably state and international laws as well. According to [http://www.intelligent-forces.com/events.htm their events page], the group claims to "use targeted kidnappings where appropriate."
* '''Not compliant to FM's standards.''' --- Additionally, it is not clear how intelligent-forces.com satisfies the criteria demanded of ResearchID.org by FM to Campana during [[Talk:Intelligent_design#One_less_link.3F|a recent discussion]].
* '''Not accessible.''' --- Intelligent-forces.com also seems to negatively answer the guideline questions [[Wikipedia:External_links]], "Is it accessible?" or "Is the link, in the context used, likely to have a substantive longevity?" since the page linked to that critiques ID is not accessible through any of the "outer shell" pages at intelligent-forces.com, and ostensibly serves as a "hidden" page on the Intelligent-forces.com site.

Based on the above observations, and according to FM's criteria and the above cited guidelines page, the link to Intelligent-forces.com seems to fail the tests for inclusion under a number of the qualifiers, especially ''"Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research."''

As such, it seems the link to Intelligent-forces.com does not belong on the Wikipedia article about ID.

Also, since neither Intelligent-forces.com nor [http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Main_Page ResearchID.org] comply with FM's stated standards, yet intelligent-forces.com is currently utilized as a link, why is ResearchID.org excluded from the External links section?

Replies to these concerns would be appreciated. Please let me know if I have mistaken the facts on any points. Kind regards, [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]] 19:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC).

:Um, it's a parody site... But you knew that, right? ID has generated several parodies, [[Flying Spaghetti Monsterism]], [[Intelligent Falling]], which are notable in their own right, worthy of their own articles here. This seems to be one of those. Why don't you come back making your case using [[Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines]], not "FM's criteria," whatever that is. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 19:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::FM, thanks for your reply. Yes indeedee, I am aware that the site is a parody, thank you for checking in with me on that; you are a considerate gentleman. The fact that it is a spoof is why the link doesn't belong on a Wikipedia article. So say the [[Wikipedia:External_links|Wikipedia conventions on external links that I already gave above]], which state that "Wikipedia articles should heed these rules," including the prohibition on linking to inaccurate material. I don't see in the [[Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines]] where it says that non-factual parodies can be linked to. However, as you and everyone can observe, the page linked to is a fictitious spoof containing counterfactual material not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Perhaps we can start a 'humor' page for such entertaining fiction. Thank you again for your very prompt reply; the speedy responses always make this page a pleasure for discussion. Kind regards, [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]] 20:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::It's clearly a parody and [[Wikipedia:External_links]] does not preclude parodies and it take some significant stretches of logic to conclude that it does. Is this post of your's a parody as well? If not and you're serious then you're wasting our time and yours. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 20:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::My, [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]], I've never seen such a venomous yet courteous post. Kudos.
::::Joseph C. Campana, [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]], et all, please review your recent posts. Try to remain civil and patient. Some things are not worth replying to, while few are worth getting brusque over. -- [[User talk:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 20:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::Ec, I know that this article has a long and bad history of conflict. I want no part in that aspect of this talk page. Typed words are easy to misinterpret, and this page is incredibly heated.

:::::I have no hard feelings against anyone here.

:::::My only intention is courtesy. I have no desire to fester distrust or venom. Please know that civility is my first priority. There is no sarcasm intended in my tone. As far as my own capabilities, I have tried everything to remain civil. If I am coming across as negative or venomous, please tell me how I can avoid this. If necessary, I will resort to smilies, but even those can be misinterpreted. I know it can be hard to believe sometimes, given the battles that go on here, but there are people that appreciate the work that goes into making a wiki community work together, trust me, I know this fact very well.

:::::I really do give all of the editors here props, including FM. This is a genuine compliment I am offering. I hope it can be taken at face value, and the work of this article can continue without hostility. Kind regards, [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]] 21:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::::FM, wow, you really are fast!!! Nope, this post is not a parody, it is a legitimate concern. The parody page under discussion, quoting from the conventions, is not "accessible," lacks "substantive longevity," and is indeed "factually inaccurate material."

::::::As the [[Wikipedia:List_of_policies|Wikipedia policies state]], "Wikipedia is first and foremost an online encyclopedia." Encyclopedias typically do not have humorous material; that type of material is typically reserved for joke books and comics. Or for articles that are explicitly humorous in nature. Given recent court proceedings and the curriculum struggle going on the US and abroad, the topic of intelligent design does not qualify as a humorous encyclopedia article.

::::::Is the inclusion of this parody an attempt to "strive for accuracy," as the [[Wikipedia:Five_pillars|first pillar of Wikipedia]] states we should do?

::::::FM, I want you to know that I am not trying to be legalistic, nor am I antithetical to this Wikipedia article. I think it is a valiant attempt at consensus, as online consensus goes. I really and truly think that the link is not appropriate for an encyclopedia article that is seeking factuality. Please do not misinterpret my discussion here. I am not a railroading ID advocate. Far be it from me to throw a wrench in the works of a wiki, I know how annoying spammers can be. As you can see, I am fairly discussing changes. Additionally, as you know, I help administer a wiki myself. I think the link under discussion is misplaced and should be removed. Can you squarely see any of the issues I am bringing up? Kind regards, [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]] 21:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Yes I see your points, and I agree it needs to go, but for the reason KC brought up below actually.

:::::::While you're here I do want to compliment you on your timeline though:[http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Intelligent_Design_Timeline] It's rather good. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 21:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree - the parody should go. Its not against policy but it is linkbloat, and might be confusing for those not anticipating a parody. Its cute but does not add to the understanding of the topic at hand. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 21:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:There are indeed a lot links. We should be selective here considering there are some much more relevant ones that are missing and need to be added. So yes you're right; it should go. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 21:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::FM, thank you for the compliment on the timeline. Even though many think the opposite, I think you have been gracious and fair in our exchange. I expressed my views, you expressed yours, others expressed theirs, and a workable solution emerged. Just how a wiki should work!
::FM et al, I'm glad we could agree; albeit for different reasons. I'll remove the link in about a half an hour if there are no objections from others. That is, I will remove it if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Kind regards, [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]] 22:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Knock that off. You're ruining my rep, and I worked too hard for it. If you feel I was gracious and fair at all it's your own fault. You were a very good sport when I expressed my opinion recently that your ID wiki isn't yet notable enough for mention in this article. Many others would have flown off in a rage; you responded with grace and humility and that did not go unnoticed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if one day soon it will be wildly notable and successful. If the DI has any sense they'll bankroll you. I still think your post here was a parody, though. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 23:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::In all honesty, I wouldn't mind linking to that timeline, even though I agree with FM re the link to the full site. (Hey, is that wishy-washy on my part?). [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 10:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::There's a few POV and possible NOR issues with the timeline, but, with Joe's permission, we could reuse its code as a starting point for wikipedia's own ID timeline. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 15:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::Apologies for my delay in replying, I have been visiting remote localities where internet connections are buggy and slow. I would be very agreeable to Wikipedia using the ResearchID.org timeline as a starting point. I would require a citation with a link in the form of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights#Example_notice Wikipedia's Example notice] (or a suitable modification thereof). -- [[User:JosephCCampana|Joseph C. Campana]] 12:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::::That would be excellent! Thanks, Joe. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 14:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

==Important content dispute reminder==
[[Wikipedia:No climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man]] --[[User:FloNight|<font color="darkblue">'''FloNight'''</font>]] [[User talk:FloNight|<font color="green"><sup>''talk''</sup></font>]] 22:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:Very cute. I have acrophobia by the way...seeing that picture has scarred me for life. ;) [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::This talk page scares me! [[User:FloNight|<font color="darkblue">'''FloNight'''</font>]] [[User talk:FloNight|<font color="green"><sup>''talk''</sup></font>]] 22:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Its terrified braver puppies than I. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 23:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Come on, Flo... worse than the Zhu articles and Webex? You cut your teeth at wikipedia debating tough subjects, I saw to that. Jump on in... the vitriol is fine. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 23:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

::::LOL. It's true, I learned the fine art of Wikipedia consensus editing by skirmishing with (self-described) pedantic blowhard Larvatus and the living legend FeloniousMonk. ; - ) [[User:FloNight|<font color="darkblue">'''FloNight'''</font>]] [[User talk:FloNight|<font color="green"><sup>''talk''</sup></font>]] 03:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::FeloniousMonk has ''improved'' since becoming an admin. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 03:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

==IDCAD, part 2: Overview==
===Changes 1-4 (2)===
Continuing the "In-depth copyedit analysis and discussion" here, now that we've gone over the first 9 edits (for the lead) fairly thoroughly. These copyedits are to the "Intelligent design in summary" section, which was renamed to simply "Overview" in my edits. Per request, I'll start with the first four, then move on to the next four, etc.

*1. Rename section title "Intelligent design in summary" to "Overview". Simpler, tidier, quicker. Conveys all the same information, but lets readers ''instantly'' know what the section deals with: an overview of intelligent design. Also, "summaries" often apply to stories, not topics and beliefs in general; "overview" is more general, and better encompasses the "origins of the concept" and "origins of the term" sections, which don't really "summarize" ID, per se.
*2. Merge first two paragraphs ("Intelligent design is presented as..." and "This stands in opposition to...") into one. Both are extremely short, only one sentence long, and they are on exactly the same topic, with a smooth transition from the end of the first sentence to the beginning of the second.
*3. Change "<nowiki>[[Biology|biological science]]</nowiki>" to "<nowiki>[[biology|biological]] science</nowiki>". Minor wikilink clarifier, so users are less likely to be confused into thinking that there's a "biological science" article distinct from our [[biology]] article. ([[Life science]] also redirects to [[biology]], incidentally.)
*4. Shorten "which relies on experiment and collection of uncontested data to explain the natural world" to "which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world". Conveys the same basic information, but much more quickly, simply, and accurately. "Uncontested" is ambiguous, and addresses a (relatively) complex issue (validation of scientific data under the [[scientific method]]) that is beyond the scope of this article; if an IDer contests scientific data, that doesn't make it unscientific. "Collection of uncontested data" is also too vague to be meaningful or useful here; simply "experimentation" suffices for the very basic overview of science which is all this article requires.

By the way, Kenosis has removed {{tl|Intelligent Design}} from the entire article without discussion. It used to be in the "Intelligent design in summary/Overview" section. Anyway, comments and feedback on the first four changes for this section? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 07:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
::Just poking my head in here quickly... if you look again at the edit, it was a partial template when I removed it. ( {INtelligent design}} ) . Status quo was unknown at that point, whether it should be re-included or not. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 15:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Yes, I noted below that the template was broken at the time. However, it was never intentionally removed; the first { was removed due to a typo. Looking over the edit history, it seems that this typo was caused when FeloniousMonk [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60757176&oldid=60756806 accidentally deleted a {] in one of his edits. This error was subsequently fixed, but was restored during your revert-spree around 16:00 June 17. Since this change seems to have resulted from a simple mistake on FM and Kenosis' parts, unless there are any objections, can the template be restored now? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

# I prefer "Overview", but only as part of the title "Overview of intelligent design". I realize it's no shorter than what we currently have, but while I agree re summary, I think we need to say what it's an overview of.
# That's what's already there (at least as of 6:57 AM EST).
# [[biological]] science will work fine -- biological redirects to biology.
# We've gone over that one before and consensus was to let it stand, so I'm opposed to that change at this time.<br>
Once we get these four items squared away, we'll discuss the template. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 11:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

::1. It is not necessary to include "intelligent design" in every section header for the article named [[Intelligent design]]. In fact, it's ''phenomenally'' unnecessary, and makes the article a lot less easy to navigate for brand-new readers, since they have to read 4 times as much text to get the same information that they would from simpler section titles. There is no reason to violate the [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings)|Manual of Style]] here when all it does is inconvenience our readers. The MoS explicitly states: "Avoid restating the subject of the article or of an enclosing section in heading titles. It is assumed that you are writing about the same subject, so you usually do not need to refer to it again." Makes sense to me..
::2. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but that fact isn't relevant. I've already stated in my previous edit that which edits of mine were and weren't reverted was 100% random, based solely on chronology. Nobody has specifically verified the new edits, regardless of whether they're currently in the article or not, so whether the edits are in the current article has absolutely nothing to do with whether they should be (or have been) accepted or not.
::3. Although I understand where you're coming from, it is preferable to link to <nowiki>[[biology|biological]]</nowiki> rather than <nowiki>[[biological]]</nowiki>. It is more convenient, speedy, and simple for our readers. There are many users on Wikipedia that go around fixing links to redirects by replacing them with links to the redirected-to article; I see no value in making their job any more difficult.
::4. OK, but just "this has been discussed" isn't really satisfying (especially sans a link)&mdash;can you explain why the current version was settled upon? I have a pretty good idea already of why that section was added to the sentence in question, and it seems a misguided effort to me, for the reasons I mentioned above (it doesn't add useful information for the reader, complicates the sentence, and has the potential to be misunderstood). Anyway, thanks for the feedback! -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 11:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

My opinions:
#Yes. Shorter is better. I can grok the article structure at a glance.
#Yes. Let's discuss ''changes'', if you please.
#Yes.
#No, for many reasons. And no it isn't "satisfying" to read a past argument when you wish to engage in one yourself. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 13:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Puppy's take:
#Yes.
#Yes.
#Yes.
#No. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 13:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

::WAS, #2 ''is'' a change. The problem is that when FeloniousMonk reverted my changes, he missed a number of my [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60616012&oldid=60610523 early] ones; not mentioning them now, along with the others, would be dishonest and wouldn't make any sense, since they're no more or less likely to be accepted than my other changes, they just randomly happened to slip through the cracks of FM's reverts. For example, change #6 (in part 1) was (and still is) implemented even though people seem opposed to it, because it slipped through those cracks. Same for #4 in part 2, which you three object to as well. So the fact that a change hasn't already been reverted doesn't seem a reliable indicator of whether it will be accepted: the paragraph-merge, consequently, ''is'' a change, and Felonious specifically asked me to list them all individually so that they can be checked over. What have I done wrong?
::Anyway, it sounds like there's agreement to accept 1-3 and reject 4. I can live with that (though it would be nice to hear ''some'' real rationale or justification for #4, if only as a footnote.. oi). Should I list the next 4 now, or wait a while longer? There are a total 13 more changes in the "Overview" section. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 13:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

"next we'll discuss the template" says Jim62sch. So either that or the next four or both. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 13:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:For the template discussion, we'll need Kenosis' input at least to reach a consensus. I'm not so sure that the template really adds anything to the article. Thus, since I'm a bit ambivalent about it at the moment, feel free to explain why you think it needs to be there and others can disagree (if they wish) and the most compelling argument will get my "vote".
: re #2 -- "That's what's already there" means I have no objection. Had I an objection, I would have stated it.[[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 14:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, we'll need to hear from Kenosis to find out why the template was deleted. Looking at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60978526&oldid=60978352 the edit] and its context, it looks to me like the removal was a simple mistake, perhaps caused by the fact that the template was missing its first { bracket at the time and thus wasn't working (which in turn was caused by Kenosis' recent [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60855329&oldid=60855017 revert] to FeloniousMonk's typo-heavy older version).
::As for whether it's useful or not, it's no more or less useful to this article than the {{tl|creationism2}} template is to the [[Creationism]] article; they are the same concept, providing a series of links between significant daughter articles to improve navigability. Though certainly the ID template is vastly more useful to this article than the Creationism template is, since it provides easily-accessible links to other ID-related articles. Personally, I prefer a vertical template at the top of the "hub" article (e.g. [[Scientology]] for the Scientology series, [[Intelligent design]] for the ID series) and a horizontal template at the bottom of most of the other articles in the series, but that doesn't really matter here.
::As for #2, Jim, you misunderstand. I understood perfectly that you were approving the edit by saying it's "already there". I was simply pointing out that you were giving the wrong impression with that comment&mdash;a wrong impression which subsequently misled WAS into thinking that #2 was somehow unusual for being "already there", presumably because he didn't take the time to look at the actual article, where he'd have discovered that ''all 4'' of the above edits, except for #1, are "already there". That's simply a historical accident, and is irrelevant to a discussion of the edits' validity. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

On the proposed changes:
#OK.
#OK.
#OK.
#No.
About the ID template: My opinion is that adds little to this article, since the links it contains are already present in the article. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 15:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:But scattered throughout the page at varying junctures. And the links are more than ten times more relevant to the article than many of the general creationism articles (e.g., an extra link to [[Discovery Institute]] or [[Irreducible complexity]] on [[Intelligent design]] is infinitely more important than a link to [[Islamic creationism]] or [[Old Earth creationism]]), so two links to one of them is potentially very helpful to users, who will find tracking through the entire article to find a certain centrally important link (e.g. [[intelligent designer]] or [[wedge strategy]]) less convenient than a compact, organized series-box. Your opinions applies equally to the "See also" section; by your reasoning, we should delete both the template and almost all of the "See also" section. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

::Within the article, many of the links on the template appear as main article links — that should be enough to stress their import. I am not altogether convinced that all of the remaining links are as important, though all of them certainly appear at several junctures on the page. Presumably, a reader who is interested in exploring those topics can click on the links, though if they need to be emphasized, they should appear in the see also section (that would seem to be its purpose). <sup>[[User:Ig0774|iggy]]</sup><sub>[[User_talk:Ig0774|talk]]</sub> 15:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Actually, only 5 of the links appear as "main article" links; the other 6 ([[theistic realism]], [[Discovery Institute]], [[Center for Science and Culture]], [[Wedge strategy]], [[Teach the Controversy]] and [[Intelligent design in politics]]) do not. I don't see how you can dispute that these links are "as important"; several are ''more'' important than the "main article" ones. You are also incorrect in saying that "all of them certainly appear at several junctures on the page"&mdash;[[Intelligent design in politics]] appears nowhere at all in the page now that {{tl|Intelligent Design}} has been mistakenly removed.
:::However, I agree with you that there isn't really a need to have a "see also" section, as long as we have the template to use. The arguments both you and FeloniousMonk used to claim that the template isn't very useful are much more effective when applied to the "see also" section: anything that is linked there and already linked in the article probably doesn't need to be repeated at the very bottom, where relatively few people will see it anyway (unlike the more useful template near the top of the page), and the articles linked in "see also" that ''aren't'' linked anywhere in the article are probably so minor that their being linked to at all in the top-level ID article should be disputed. Additionally, unlike the listing in the ID template, which is carefully-trimmed and lists no stubs or dubious pages, a lot of the articles linked to in "see also" and nowhere else in the article also seem to be pretty poor-quality dubious pages, such as [[argument from evolution]], [[clockmaker hypothesis]], [[intelligent falling]], and [[orgel's rule]], or aren't really significantly related to intelligent design, such as [[cosmological argument]], [[Raëlism]], and [[evolutionary algorithm]]. At the very least, if the "see also" section isn't removed altogether (or better yet, merged with the template where relevant), it should certainly be severely trimmed and cleaned up. There are much stronger arguments to be made against the "see also" section than against [[Template:Intelligent Design]]. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
::::RE: "we'll need to hear from Kenosis..." above: I disagree that this input is necessary to form consensus. Substantively to the current points:
::::1. yes
::::2. yes
::::3. yes
::::4. Qualified yes. The use of the phrase "uncontested data" in the relevant passage here has already been changed, and should remain as is.
::::The issue was framed above (by Silence) as follows:
::::*4. Shorten "which relies on experiment and collection of uncontested data to explain the natural world" to "which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world". Conveys the same basic information, but much more quickly, simply, and accurately. "Uncontested" is ambiguous, and addresses a (relatively) complex issue (validation of scientific data under the [[scientific method]]) that is beyond the scope of this article; if an IDer contests scientific data, that doesn't make it unscientific. "Collection of uncontested data" is also too vague to be meaningful or useful here; simply "experimentation" suffices for the very basic overview of science which is all this article requires.
::::The relevant paragraph currently reads as follows:
::::*Intelligent design is presented as an alternative to [[natural science|natural]] explanations for [[evolution]]. This stands in opposition to mainstream [[biology|biological]] science, which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world through observed physical processes such as [[mutation]] and [[natural selection]]. ... 19:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
::::I would maintain the current reading is appropriate, and should remain in place. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 19:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::Kenosis, the current reading is already in accordance with my suggested changes. Of the above 4 changes, only #1 has yet to be implemented. So, currently the plan seems to be "add the section-change mentioned in #1, and revert the textual change mentioned in #4." Consequently, since you support the current version, it sounds like your support for change #4 is more "unqualified" than "qualified"; the paragraph on [[Intelligent design]] at the moment is ''exactly'' what changes 2-4 request. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 19:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::::My qualification is based upon the fact that it was not made clear in #4 above whether the sentence was intended to ''stop'' with the words "...explain the natural world." Given recent experience here, my comment remains thus qualified. ; { ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 20:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
:The sentence wasn't intended to stop there for the simple reason that the ''original'' sentence didn't stop there; if a change is not explicitly stated in one of the above edits, then it should be assumed that the change is not part of the suggestions. You had no reason to think that the sentence could end there; the original sentence, which was referenced as analogous to the new one in edit description #4, ended at exactly the same point that the original one did, yet the original didn't end mid-sentence, as indicated by the fact that a period was not enclosed in quotes in either version. Moreover, if you had any doubts about what, exactly, edit #4 entailed (and I don't see how you could if you read the description above carefully, though I apologize if I was unclear), you could have simply checked the edit history change I provided at [[#Copyedit]]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=58301183&oldid=58280951 the very first edit] demonstrated what the proposed change would (and does) look like. In the future, if you have any questions about any of the edits I'm proposing, or are unclear as to what any of them entail, feel 100% free to ask me about them and I'll try to explain. Regardless, the ambiguity's been cleared up now, so there's no reason to qualify your support when you support exactly the edit that was suggested.. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 20:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::RE "The sentence wasn't intended to stop there for the simple reason that the original sentence didn't stop there; if a change is not explicitly stated in one of the above edits, then it should be assumed that the change is not part of the suggestions.": My recent experience with this discussion provides inadequate evidence to believe this assertion, indeed my experience provides evidence that I should make sure we are talking about the same thing. I stand by my statement of support thus qualified as above. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 21:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
<small>reduce indent</small>Kenosis has a very good point. It seems that if things are not spelled out explicitly to the point of absurdity the intent of the editor is misconstrued and and ''argumentum ad stultitiam'' ensues. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

===Changes 5-8 (2)===
:We've pretty much established that 1-3 will be accepted and 4 rejected, and Kenosis has explained the mistake that resulted in the ID template being deleted, so here are the next four changes:

*5. Change "through observed impersonal physical processes" to "through observed physical processes". Again, more concise explanations are better when they convey the same information, and "impersonal" isn't meaningful here. How could a physical process be "personal"?
*6. Change [[mutations]] to [[mutation]]. This is describing a physical process, not a series of specific occurrences, so "mutation", not "mutations" is appropriate here. Also, [[mutations]] is a redirect.
*7. Clarify "The stated purpose is" to "Intelligent design's started purpose is" at the start of the next paragraph. There's no reason whatsoever not to state the name in this context and avoid potential ambiguity; in fact, using "The" here is semantically incorrect.
*8. Change "[[empiricism|empirical evidence]]" to "[[empiricism|empirical]] evidence". The link goes to [[empiricism]] either way, but readers will be misled by the original style into thinking that the link goes to an article specifically about empirical evidence, not about empiricism in general.

:Again, comments and criticism welcome.
-[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

*5 -- fine
*6 -- link? I'm not going through the article to find it.
*7 -- "The" is semantically incorrect? Why? How so? Did you mean "syntactically" or "grammatically"? If so, that would be an incorrect assertion. And again, link? I searched for that and couldn't find it.
*8 -- fine
[[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

*5. yes.
*6. yes. (I assume you are still talking about the first paragraph.)
*7. The sentence is complete garbage and should be replaced by the quote in the reference. What is the stated purpose of E=MC2? People have stated purposes. Further, the actual purposes of people are rarely the stated ones.
*8. yes.
[[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 06:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

:*WAS, the quote in the reference is not relevant to the sentence in question. It is malplaced: the reason it was put after the "stated" is as a snide, subtle way to ''refute'' ID's claimed goal, when any reader at all would expect a footnote after "stated" to ''back up'' or ''explain the source of'' ID's stated goal, not sneakily attack it. There's no reason to be sneaky or easter egg-ish about pointing out the disjunct between ID's claimed goals and it's actual goals, after all, as long as it's cited. :) At this point, I'm recommending that the 9th reference be simply moved to a later paragraph, where it's actually relevant and actually backs up a certain claim made in the article. It would go great at the end of the last paragraph of "Origins of the concept", for example (a paragraph which, incidentally, I will recommend we move up to the "Overview" section in a later edit, because it doesn't actually have anything at all to do with the ID concept's origin).
:*Jim, it is semantically incorrect because its coherent meaningfulness, not its grammar or word order, is flawed. A statement can be grammatically and syntactically correct, but still fail to be a good English sentence in a specific context. And, simply look at what is currently the second paragraph of the "Overview" section to see change #7: "Intelligent design's stated" has been changed from "The stated". For change #6, look at the end of the first paragraph: "physical processes such as mutation and natural selection" has been changed from "physical processes such as mutations and natural selection". -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 06:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

::You had damned well better be able to back this up -- you are ascribing motives, and quite frankly I've had about enough of this: "the reason it was put after the "stated" is as a snide, subtle way to ''refute'' ID's claimed goal, when any reader at all would expect a footnote after "stated" to ''back up'' or ''explain the source of'' ID's stated goal, not sneakily attack it." Your attitude needs to change.
::Sadly, you are wrong in the first instance: there was not a damned thing semantically wrong with, "The stated purpose of...", it means precisely the same thing as what is currently there. As for the second example, I said nothing other than that you need to specify where the sentence is. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 11:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

::*5. Yes. This edit has been stable since [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60370747&oldid=60309127 here]
::*6. Yes. This has been done for awhile too, with no apparent objection.
::*7. Yes. Apparently there was no serious objection to this more specific way of starting this first sentence of the second paragraph of the section [[Intelligent design#Overview]], previously [[Intelligent design#Intelligient_design_in_summary]]. (Whichever of these two section titles is the latest preference, I'll support either).
::*8. Yes. Either [[empirical research]] or [[empirical]] is equally appropriate to link to.
::... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 07:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

===Changes 9-12 (2)===
It sounds like there's rough agreement to approve the previous four edits, so I'll move on to the next four. However, feel free to continue to discuss or critique the above edits if anyone who hasn't looked at them yet finds a problem; all discussions remain open, I am simply listing the next four (which are all minor and formating-related), from the [[Intelligent_design#Overview|second and third paragraphs]], in the interest of expediency:

*9. Delink "life on [[Earth]]" to "life on Earth". No reason to link Earth here, not relevant to context.
*10. Change ""''signs of intelligence''"" to "''signs of intelligence''". It is redundant to both italicize and [[scare quote]]-ize a new term (and doesn't look good either).
*11. Change "<nowiki>[[physical properties]]</nowiki>" to "<nowiki>[[physical property|physical properties]]</nowiki>" to avoid unnecessary redirect.
*12. Change "he may (ID proponents argue)" to "he may, ID proponents argue,". Works just as well, but more smoothly and simply. (I'll explain this one further if anyone has a problem with it.)

-[[User:Silence|Silence]] 12:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


:*. 9. Yes. The article on [[Earth]] is superfluous to the subject of [[Intelligent design]].
:*10. Yes. ''"Quotalics"'' are unnecessary.
:*11. Yes, link directly to target article wherever an unnecessary redirect is noticed.
:*12. Yes, do replace the parentheses with commas.
: ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 16:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

::Agree with Kenosis.
::Nota bene: there are no temporal limitations as implied in the edit summary.
::For #12, the parentheses are actually wrong, so the commas not only work as well, they are actually the correct punctuation. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 21:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
:::Support 9-12 inclusive. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 21:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

===Changes 13-16 (2)===
And here are the last 4 for part 2, the "overview" section.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=58301183&oldid=58280951]

*13. Add comma after "that the statue was designed" to indicate a pause.
*14. Correct spelling error "identifiy" to "identify".
*15. Merge 2nd- and 3rd-to-last paragraphs (the ones dealing with "signs of intelligence") into one. Exact same topic being discussed, short paragraphs, no reason for split.
*16. Simplify convoluted grammar in "Dembski, in ''Signs of Intelligence'', states:" to just "Dembski states in ''Signs of Intelligence'':".

Again, comments and criticism welcome. Once all the part-2 issues have been pretty much settled, I'll move on to part 3, the "Origins of the concept" section. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 08:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:*13. It's already there ''but'' I don't think it belongs...no pause is needed -- in fact, a pause breaks the flow of the sentence.
:*14. Yes.
:*15. No. The break in paragraphs is for emphasis.
:*16. It ''could'' be changed, but preferably to "In ''Signs of Intelligence'' Dembski states, ..." as that is pretty standard writing, but so too is "Dembski, in ''Signs of Intelligence'', states:" (although I think the colon should be replaced by a comma). [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 09:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::*I don't have any strong opinions about 13; if others agree with you, it can be removed. I don't think it "breaks up the flow" any more than it should, though. As for 15, I don't see how the break effectively emphasizes anything; if anything, it's ''too'' abrupt of a breaking-off point for what's being discussed, cutting off the paragraph's natural flow much more so than a mere comma could.
::*And, I don't really care whether we use "Dembski states in ''Signs of Intelligence''" or "In ''Signs of Intelligence'', Dembski states", but we should use a comma after ''Signs of Intelligence'' if we go with your version. I don't think it makes a difference whether we use a comma or colon at the end; whichever looks better. As long as we don't use "Dembsi, in ''Signs of Intelligence'', states", I'm fine with it; the original structure is just too unnecessarily, jarringly convoluted. It may be grammatically correct, but it's not "standard". -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 10:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
:::The purpose was to emphasize irreducible complexity, information mechanisms, and specified complexity. Plus, upon further reading, I don't see it as a natural fit in the preceding paragraph.
:::Agreed. (BTW: the usage in the article is more standard than you might think). [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 14:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Can we dispense with spelling errors? Just fix them - they're ''errors''. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 15:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:Sure, they're errors. So are most of the other things I fixed. What's your point? A spelling error is not inherently "worse" or "easier" than a grammatical one; there are consistent, established rules for spelling and grammar alike. Anyway, it is not a big issue, as there aren't many spelling fixes in the total edits; this page must have been spellchecked many times, as it was better than most. It's flow, clarity, wording, and grammar that was (and, after the reverts, still is) a larger issue overall.
:When I pointed out earlier that many of my changes were extremely simple error-fixes, my point was repeatedly dismissed and I was accused of being "sneaky", of "edit-warring", of "trolling", and of "editing for editing's sake". When I pointed out that monotonously listing every single change, no matter how simple or trivial or unobjected-to, was little better than "sifting through meaningless bureaucratic hurdles", FM strawmanned me with "Well, if you think working with other editors in achieving consensus is nothing more than 'sifting through meaningless bureaucratic hurdles'..." Any attempt at all to delineate between the edits based on importance has been met with accusations and needless squabbling (on my part as well as others'), and I have been repeatedly instructed by FM and others to list each individual edit "one at a time", "bit-by-bit", etc. So, I apologize for the inconvenience, but I'm done with the silly idea of focusing on important edits rather than listing trivial ones. :) I'd rather spend time discussing minor changes to the article than waste it fighting over which ones to discuss; at least ''something'' productive is being done this way. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::Spelling is essentially objective (unless we're going to get into a row over American v. British v. Australian v. Canadian English, etc.). A number of the other items identified as errors are not necessarily so. While grammar rules are somewhat fixed, many are not absolutes. English is generally (at least in the active voice) SVO, but other variations are quite acceptable. In most cases, it's really a matter of taste.
::As for the second paragraph of the above comment, the sarcasm is not likely to a productive way of garnering support for the more substantive changes you appear to have in mind based on this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Silence/ID ]. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 22:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

==Using a Hypostatization to Hide a Theology==

According to the Discovery Institute, "The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This assertion is totally illogical. A theory cannot hold an opinion. A theory cannot assert "that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause."

The Discovery Institute poses the question, "What is the theory of intelligent design?" Then, rather than providing a definition of intelligent design, the Discovery Institute offers a DESCRIPTION of intelligent design. That description is a hypostatization.

Hypostatization means "treating an abstract entity as if it were concrete." Intelligent design is an "abstract entity" and, as such, intelligent design is absolutely incapable of holding the opinion that intelligent design is the "best" explanation. However, the Discovery Institute's description of intelligent design turns intelligent design into a "concrete" person named Intelligent Design, who purportedly "holds" the opinion that intelligent design is the "best" explanation. This is trickery and utter silliness.

The debate about intelligent design goes around and around because the proponents of intelligent design are never required to actually define intelligent design. Instead, they are allowed to put up a straw man, Mr. Intelligent Design, and allege that he holds the opinion that he is the best explanation.

Intelligent design is the assertion that the universe was designed and created by an intelligent designer. It's really just that simple. Intelligent design is not a theory, it's a theology.

The Wikipedia page about intelligent design should be revised to make it clear that the Discovery Institute is offering an opinion about intelligent design, not a definition of intelligent design.

[[User:Scott G. Beach|Scott G. Beach]] 09:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:While I agree that the assertion is illogical, the source is a direct quote, so it cannot be changed. And personally, I'd rather not see the article waste additional bytes on the philosophical or semantic incorrectness of DI's statement.
:As for ID being a theology, while that may in fact be true (see Kitzmiller for verification of that view), since we're constrained by the rules of [[WP:NPOV]], we'd need to be extremely careful in expressing such a view. As the article stands now, there is sufficient sourcing that alludes to ID theological bent. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 11:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
::Using Wikipedia's main content policies [[WP:NOR]], [[WP:V]], and [[NPOV]] as a guide, the article is handling this issue exactly right. [[User:FloNight|<font color="darkblue">'''FloNight'''</font>]] [[User talk:FloNight|<font color="green"><sup>''talk''</sup></font>]] 13:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

:The Discovery Institute defined the concept, term and issues as they exist today. Their definition of ID is definitive, and quoting it here is appropriate and necessary. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 14:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


==Scientific Consensus Statement==

I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds the statement 'the scientific consensus is that life evolved' to be a very problematic one. Primarly; it reaches beyond verifiable sources available. I would propose that stating that 'prominent scientific organizations including the NABT have stated that no debate exists, and that the scientific consensus is that life evolved.' is a far more verifiable statement. Comments welcome! Cheers [[User:Jgarth|Jgarth]] 23:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

:Why is it problematic? Claiming it "reaches beyond verifiable sources" means that you think that every biology text that makes this statement isn't a verifiable enough deluge of sources. What a lark! --[[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] 01:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::I see no problem with the statement. [[User:FloNight|<font color="darkblue">'''FloNight'''</font>]] [[User talk:FloNight|<font color="green"><sup>''talk''</sup></font>]] 01:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::For the record, I still argue that the comment needs to be modified. Within the context of the paragraph into which this statement is inserted; the very issue at stake is whether or not a debate or controversy exists. The term 'scientific consensus' is used to support a truth claim that no debate or controversy exists. However, this reaches beyond the cited evidence available. I believe my proposal is far more verifiable; as it rightly states that the NABT (and other scientific groups and organizations) have issued statements on behalf of their membership supporting the integrity of evolutionary theory. However, if it is then inferred, on the basis of that quotation alone, that 'scientific consensus' exists, that's simply going beyond the cited evidence.
Your point is taken with regards to the deluge of sources in biology textbooks; which I agree are present in ample and voluminous quantity. However, this is not the issue at hand. The issue is not the number of textbooks which describe or espouse the details of the theory; but it is the issue of whether the theory itself is a source of debate in the minds of the scientific community. Certainly; based on the cited evidence; a sizeable ''majority'' of scientists from prominent organizations do not believe a serious debate exists. But casually dropping the term 'scientific consensus' goes one step further; until this statement is moderated; the article runs the risk of being accused of POV pushing. [[User:Jgarth|Jgarth]] 03:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:Although I understand your concerns, I do not see the statement as "problematic". It is hardly "casually dropping the term" to point out that the scientific consensus is that life evolved, considering it is foundational to just about all biological studies. Would it be "casual" to point out in [[intelligent falling]] that the scientific consensus is that gravity exists? If you don't think that evolution is supported by scientific consensus (or if you think that this issue is in doubt), then you should review the requirements of consensus: "In its strongest form, the term [scientific consensus] is used to assert that on a given question scientists within a particular field of science have reached an agreement of rational opinion without substantial doubt, through a process of experimentation and peer review". That seems to fit evolution extremely well.
:On the other hand, I do agree with you that we should back up such a bold assertion with more references, especially since intelligent design advocates may doubt it and need some good associated references to read up on in order to clear up their misconception. If there is a "deluge" of literature (and there is), we should have a fairly easy time citing at least 5 or 6 examples of it, not just a single one, as we currently do. We use similar methods in other parts of the article; for example, footnote 4 lists half a dozen or so references. That seems appropriate here as well, if we can find some good ones. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 08:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::There's certainly nothing wrong with the statement as it stands -- scientific consensus ''is'' that life evolved. If we need more sources to assuage IDists, fine, but I don't know that it's truly necessary to lend credence to the statement. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 09:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Regardless of whether we ''need'' more sources, certainly noone would dispute that it would be useful to ''have'' at least a few more sources in footnote 48, since the statement that there is [[scientific consensus]] for evolution occurring is such a significant one in the context of this article (and probably would be a pretty easy one to more definitively support), refuting, as it does, the entire "[[Teach the Controversy]]" aspect of ID's [[wedge strategy]]. I don't see it as a top-priority or absolutely required change, just as a beneficial one&mdash;not just to allay possible future criticism, but to provide some more sources for interested readers to check out and clear up their misconceptions. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 10:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Done. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 16:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

RE: "... the article runs the risk of being accused of POV pushing." above in this section: Yes it does run the risk. As can be readily discerned, in the section above it is accused of POV pushing of the speculation of intelligent design, and in this section it is accused of POV pushing of the fact of biological evolution. Next: Is the "round-earth" theory a POV?... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 16:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

: Thanks for the additional references; they strengthen the claim of this significant statement, in the context within which it is placed. [[User:Jgarth|Jgarth]] 17:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

RE: "round-earth theory a POV?" - It would only be POV pushing if the round earth article neglected to put sufficient references to justify its claim of consensus. (in the case of this issue; I agreet that references would be pretty easy to obtain!!)

As an aside; I think the analogies that people have drawn by placing evolutionary theory into the same category as gravity or the round earth theory are not quite appropriate; as these categories relate to observable objects or events in the present. I would suggest a better approach is to place evolutionary theory in the same category as the 'Standard Inflationary Theory' regarding the origin of the universe; which a plausible reconstruction of the past, supported by a degree of forensic evidence; and consistent with the regular laws that we know to be in operation today. [[User:Jgarth|Jgarth]] 17:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:Inflationary theory would be more analogical to a theory of [[abiogenesis]] than to evolution. I think you conceive of evolution too narrowly: the definition of ''evolution'' used on Wikipedia, derived from scientific usage, is much broader and is, in fact, observed on a day-to-day basis, just as much as gravity is "observed"&mdash;in that, when you see an object fall from a tree, you are seeing an ''effect'' of gravity, you aren't literally observing a gravitational force. Likewise, when we see bacteria evolve new resistance or immunity to certain antibiotics, we are observing the effects of the process called evolution, not literally a "thing" called evolution. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

We might also point out that this tends to be cited often as evidence for the scientific consensus: [[Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution]]. --[[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] 19:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

==On editing this article==
I've read through this page and looked at Silence's copyedits. I cannot believe the amazing amount of rhetoric that has gone into discussion of these changes. Most of them are rock solid improvments to the article. I am going to start doing some copyediting as well. I will make edit summaries as I go, but hope not to have to get approval for each comma, as he has. [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 19:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:Godspeed. Don't be disheartened if they're all reverted, though. I've resigned myself to spending months of work on what would otherwise take a couple of days; if it's the only way that progress will occur at all, then so be it. It is admittedly inefficient and laborious to spend so much time discussing uncontroversial, undisputed changes while there are so many more significant matters to be building consensus on, but most frequent editors here seem to agree that it is necessary, so I will adhere to that. I stayed up all last night writing up a detailed, systematic overview of most of the various changes I recently [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60807064&oldid=60770827 attempted to make] to a single section of the article, "Origins of the concept", which I plan to spend the next few weeks slowly unveiling, 4 edits at a time, in the hope that as many as possible will be accepted without undue conflict; [[User_talk:Silence/ID|43 edits]] in total, in that section alone. But in any case, I wish you better luck than I had; like some (but not all) other controversial articles on Wikipedia, this is a page very set in its ways, having been forged in the fires of many past disputes and hard-won compromises, and pushing through new ideas is an uphill battle&mdash;indeed, in some cases a Sisyphean one. :) There are good people here, though, and you seem to be one of them. Hopefully we can work together in a productive and cordial manner, through compromises on both sides. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 19:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::I'd just post your proposed "Origins of the concept" section for discussion as a whole here or on a subpage in your userspace for discussion. Dragging it out piecemeal over a period of weeks only appears like you're flouting WP:POINT out of spite for having to justify your changes to long-standing, well-supported content. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 19:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I have no intention of violating [[WP:POINT]]; indeed, nothing would make me happier than being able to post the entire thing immediately. The sole reason I was going to spend weeks doing it is because you have specifically criticized me heavily, on several occasions, for providing you with a "laundry list" of changes (even though the list in question, [[#Copyedit]], was actually quite short, succinct, accurate and useful) and have strongly recommended "patience". So I've taken your words to heart, not to "disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point", but to avoid unnecessary conflicts. If you would ''prefer'' that I move quicker with my proposed changes, than I am overjoyed&mdash;I've been dreadfully bored going through them 4 at a time, waiting a day or two to list the next 4. No reason not to list them in groups of 4 without the time constraints, and let people sort through the changes at their leisure, then. You want me to post the contents of [[User talk:Silence/ID]] ("IDCAD part 3") to this page all at once, then? Or in larger chunks than 4? (Say, 15?) Or to a subpage? (Though I'd be worried about a subpage getting enough attention from editors... Then again, I don't want to spam any comments off of the page with a lengthy list.) -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 20:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:That's only half the story. It was Silence insisting on making more significant undiscussed content edits to the article, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=61171454&oldid=60978526] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60855017&oldid=60854616] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=next&oldid=60978526] and so on, that prompted editors to insist he make the case for them on talk, not the simple grammatical purposals he finally ending up submitting here. If ultimately he only chose to propose punctuation changes changes instead of actual content changes, that's hardly the fault of the long-term editors here. Who's goal is an accurate and ''stable'' article I'll add. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 19:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

*Each one of those edit history comparisons is actually a misrepresentation in terms of how many changes I made in each individual alteration. I spaced out the changes I made over a number of edits, as can be seen even by looking at the [[#Copyedit|first wave edits]] alone. If you had been interested in presenting accurate depictions of how many changes I made in each edit, you would have provided comparisons more like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=61172609&oldid=61172498 this], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=61170289&oldid=61169667 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60808181&oldid=60807064 this], rather than deliberately seeking out the few edits where I was restoring previous edits' information (often because the revert was explicitly in error, such as Kenosis' mistaken reverts and your edit-conflict revert) for rhetorical effect. You should be able to make your point just as well without distorting the nature of my edits, since even my small edits were too much for your liking.
*In reality, my edits were indeed almost without exception minor grammatical and style-related ones. I made no major content-related changes whatsoever, and the minor textual content-related changes I made (such as moving a misplaced paragraph from "origins of the concept" to "overview") were obvious, uncontroversial improvements. Your problem is that you assumed they were major edits simply because there were so many of them; now that I've actually started listing them, you realize that almost all of them are extremely trivial (which you could have figured out much sooner if you'd taken 5 minutes to read through the edits I was making, or glance over the [[#Copyedit]] list I made at your request :/), so now you're assuming that I'm "hiding" the big ones from you? FeloniousMonk, I'm going down the page in order from the highest change to the lowest one. :/ Some parts of the page received more attention than others, depending on their needs; that is an inevitable aspect of any copyedit. In particular, often thorough copyedits end up making a lot more changes lower down in the article than higher up, because the higher-up sections tend to receive more attention from more editors, and thus are often in better quality and consistency than the nether regions. :) That's just part of any routine copyedit.
*<small>(A side-note: "Stability" is only a virtue if the article is already as high-quality as we can make it. Most stubs are stable; does that make them better than unstable stubs? Surely everyone can agree that stability should help keep in place what's already as good as we can make it, not prevent future improvements; otherwise it's not stability, it's stagnation.)</small> -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 20:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::Stability will be nice once this article has FA status. Improvements, however, are what this process is all about. [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 21:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Ah, but even FAs need improvements. :) A Wikipedia article is never finished!
:::I understand where FM is coming from in being extremely conservative on article changes, though; it is very easy for an article like this to quickly degrade if it is not carefully watched for bogus additions. We must, however, be able to strike a balance between protecting the article from degrading under pressure from POV-pushers and vandals, and keeping it moving forward when problems and shortcomings are spotted; one should not get in the way of the other. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::You'll likely have to settle for accurate, complete and stable. It's very unlikely a contentious pov-magnet like the ID article will make it to FA status. This has been extensively discussed previously a number of times. As long as this article presents ID in what ID pov-pushers consider to be an unfavorable light - in other words any article that is accurate and complete presenting both sides of the topic - pro-ID lurkers, of which there are a number who have had issues with abiding by NPOV, will scuttle FA attempts with bad faith objections, just as they did last time.

:::Reading over the previous objections, most can be categorized as sour grapes. Some are based on an incomplete of flawed understanding of [[WP:NPOV]], and others I recognize as being raised in just plain bad faith to discredit the article from known troublemakers we'd encountered. I have no reason to see why the outcome of any future FA nomination would be any different no matter how the current content is rearranged. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 21:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Yes, points well taken. FA would be tough. However, I presume that you are in favor of further improving the article, no? [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 21:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Hey, anything's possible. We have featured articles for such controversial topics as [[evolution]], [[space opera in Scientology doctrine]], [[Yom Kippur War]] and ''[[Roe v. Wade]]''; with enough time and effort, just about any article become Featured. Don't overestimate the power of the POV-pushers, either; ID advocates are a small (and, percentage-wise, dwindling) minority on Wikipedia, and if their objections are not reasonable or actionable, certainly Raul will be willing to discount them.
::::Certainly we should be more concerned with improving the article in general than with getting it FAd, though; that's just one of the carrots on a stick. I don't think the thrust of any of the above comments was meant to be that we should fixate on bringing this article up to Featured status, rather than just work on making whatever improvements we can. Personally, I couldn't care less about FA, though I do like the idea of someday seeing this article on the main page, just to show off all the amazing work that's gone into the page already. :) But that's a distant possibility. What matters now are the concrete, specific problems yet to be fixed. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)\

::::::Most of the examples you cite only made it FA status by strong sheparding, not free editing, looking at their histories. "''What matters now are the concrete, specific problems yet to be fixed.''" Which are mostly punctuation and minor grammatical issues, according to you. Why the fuss? [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 22:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::And this article doesn't have "strong sheparding"? :) It's the most conservative, slow-to-change article I've ''ever'' seen in two years of Wikipedia experience. By comparison, making major, revolutionary edits to many times more active articles like the monstrously controversial [[Jesus]] and the well-attended Featured Article [[Wikipedia]] was like sliding my fingers through water&mdash;editing this one, even in extremely minor ways, is like sliding them through concrete. :)
:::::::''"Why the fuss?"'' - More to the point, why all the fuss about ''preventing'' the edits, if you're starting to realize now how surface-related, not content-related, they are? I'm a copyeditor; it is in my nature to be driven crazy by trivial errors that would be exceedingly easy to fix if someone spent 30 seconds to try. That's why I edit Wikipedia: unlike normal reference works, it's easy to correct spelling, grammar, and wording errors whenever I spot them with a minimum of hassle. Unfortunately, here the opposite has been the case. :) -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::Of course, but just not at the expense of accuracy or completeness, which is always a risk in trying to appease the bad faith objections of pov-pushers when striving for FA status. Which is why I reverted your change of the section heading "''The designer or designers''" to "''Intelligent designer''." The previous wording ''designer or designers'' was the result of compromise when several ID advocates here objected to the singular ''intelligent designer'', saying ID made no such distinction, which is partially correct. "Never take down a fence until you know why it was put up" the old saying goes, and that is why I direct new arrivals with proposals here to first become familiar with past discussions and consensus by directing them to the archives, which are partially indexed. Discussion of matters that have been previously settled and enjoy consensus should only be resurrected again if new evidence is available, etc. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 22:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

*Certainly it is reasonable to point out that past agreements have been reached. But it should not be assumed that just because an agreement or compromise was reached in the past, it will always be the best option in the future. There are a great number of problems with the "The designer of designers" section title, even more than with the original title "Intelligent designer" (though I hoped to avoid the issue altogether with the compromise version Jim and I came up with a while ago, "Intelligent cause", that got lost in one of your mass-reverts).
*First, it violates the MoS by starting the section with a "The" unnecessarily. Jim and I have discussed this already; [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings)]] makes it clear that "'The', 'a' and 'an' should be omitted from the beginning of heading titles."
*Second, it has sacrificed coherency for the reader ("Intelligent designer" is perfectly clear; "The designer or designers" is not) in order to avoid potential criticism, a common problem I see on Wikipedia, where all the debating sometimes makes people forget that Wikipedia is ultimately written for its readers, not its editors.
*Third, it is simply not very well-worded. Even if we really needed to explicitly mention the possibility that the intelligent designer is plural in the section title, which we don't, there are better ways to go about it.
*Fourth, it is potentially misleading and inaccurate with respect to actually describing the contents of the section, which never once directly or explicitly discuss or mention the possibility that there is more than one "intelligent designer" (probably because it's such an insignificant and trivial aspect of the overall belief). The title of the section will make pretty much every reader who comes to this article think that the section is a discussion of the plurality or singularity of the intelligent designer, when in reality it's nothing of the sort&mdash;it's just a general section of the intelligent designer/cause in ID, with no emphasis (indeed, no mentioning whatsoever, except as vaguely alluded to in the "alien" quotation) placed on the question of plurality or singularity.
*Fifth, it is inconsistent with the [[intelligent designer]] article; if there is some huge problem with alluding to the obvious fact that the overwhelming majority of IDers believe in a singular "Designer", not a plural one, then the change should be made first of all to the title of the main article, before we should have to start worrying about changing section titles. Why is a problem in one article not a problem in another? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::One, I agree with the point on MoS and "the", but that's not really such an issue. Two, true the overwhelming majority of IDers believe in a singular "Designer", not a plural one. But it's also true that the the overwhelming majority of IDers believe the designer is God as well, but you seldom catch them saying that in public. The point is, is that the way ID is presented it's a game of self-limiting givens. Take Dembski for example: as the article points out he says ID is not concerned with the designer or his identity or characteristics. Another time he says the designer may be aliens, yet another time the designer cannot be wholly natural. The fact is there is no one stated viewpoint that is definitive; ID proponents have shifted their statements to suit their particular argument. To fail to note that is to agree to play their game of self-limiting givens and shortchange the reader. I wouldn't be surprised if sooner rather than later another pro-ID editor shows up here objecting to the use of the singular again, that's all. I'm not going to argue any further over this here, now because it's largely a stylistic change. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 22:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Alright, as long as we can agree on the "intelligent cause" term for now, that's good enough. If an IDer objects to that one, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I don't expect it to cause any problems, though; "cause" is tremendously vaguer and more inclusive than "designer" (heck, it even avoids personalization). -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

::Let me first say that I am deeply impressed with the way the editors of this article have handled NPOV. The guide provided on this talk page is a model for other contentious articles in ''Wikipedia.'' I’ve seen my share of POV pushers in my time around here and can attest to the wisdom of the way you all have applied ''Wikipedia'' policies. However, one must always be careful to distinguish ''POV pushing'' from ''effective editing.''

::There are a number of problems with the heading ''The designer or designers.'' I pointed out two in my edit summary: "1) [it doesn't] coincide with main article, and 2) to correct [an] error - one designer; not several." In the edit summary accompanying TM's revert, he said: "ID proponents say there may be more than one, such as Dembski's aliens quote.” That isn't what the article says. It refers to an "alien culture" (one culture) and then quotes Dembski as saying: "... no intelligent agent who is strictly physical could have presided over the origin of the universe or the origin of life." Dembski is referring to ''one'' agent. If you can bring references to show that a significant body of people believe in “intelligent designers” fine, but otherwise my change should stand. [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 23:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure, it doesn't appear that the proponents believe in there being more than one designer. But the argument is ''intentionally'' structured to include "one or many". If you just follow the logic through and remove all the spurious terms/terminology, ID is Christian creationism. But it's specifically crafted to be vague, it's specifically crafted to include the "what ifs". If we want to write an NPOV article we need to at least pretend that there is some merit to what they have said. It's easy to write an anti-ID polemic. The challenge here is to write one that is both honest and NPOV. "The designer or designers" does a far better job of walking that line. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] 00:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

:I've looked for a source that speaks of "intelligent designer" in the plural. Other than one blog which was clearly opposed to intelligent design, I can find no references to "designers" except to refer to believers in intelligent design. Do you have any cites? [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 00:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

:::It's really pretty simple, I think: "an alien culture" is simply another way of saying "aliens". [http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&program=CSC%20Responses&id=1283]. Note: '"It could be space aliens," said William Dembski, a mathematician and philosopher at Baylor University in Texas and author of "No Free Lunch," a new book on intelligent design. "There are many possibilities."'[http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&program=CSCStories&id=1139]. Does this resolve the issue? [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


::Guettarda is right, and the current wording, in which as one of a number of contributors at the time he had a say, is accurate. In areas where a particular individual or group says conflictng things the best practice is to just provide all the relevant statements for the reader and let them decide. That is what we have done here in the designer section. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 01:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

:::All I am asking for is to have some cites that show this usage. I've never seen it. [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 03:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

::::I agree. Rereading the first paragraph of the section, it fails to make clear that ID proponents have been intentionally ambiguous in defining the designer; it merely implies that they are in the conflicting Dembski quotes. This needs to spelled out more clearly in the article, I'll go through Demsbki's books and articles tonight and tomorrow and find some relevant supporting cites as well. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 04:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::Per this discussion as well as the submission by [[User:Scott G. Beach|Scott G. Beach]] two sections above in [[#Using_a_Hypostatization_to_Hide_a_Theology|Using a Hypostatization to Hide a Theology]]: When talking about ID we should not, the way I figure it, dismiss the [[angels]] too lightly. Such intermediary representatives (including of course, [[Jesus|Son(s)]], [[Katharine Jefferts Schori|Daughter(s)]] and/or children Thereof) might be [[Humanity|our]] only hope. Duly acknowledging [[WP:MOS]], in my estimation "[[Intelligent design#The_designer_or_designers|The designer or designers]]" is one of a number of reasonable titles for a [[fundamentalist|fundamentally]] [[theological]] position. Good to see Sunray here, incidentally. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 05:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
::::Just a thought: would "The designer(s)" convey the same point, de-emphasising the importance of the plural? ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 06:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::Yes, I considered "Designer(s)" or something similar a while ago, when I was considering the various obvious possibilities for renaming the section. It's not really a good choice either, though, because the "(s)" ending is somewhat informal and still potentially ambiguous or misleading. "Intelligent cause" resolves all of the problems involved in both the plural/singular title and the "intelligent designer" title, and clearly we don't have a problem with it since we mention the term several other times in the article, including in the first paragraph. I'm surprised and disappointed that Jim reverted the title without any discussion and with no comment except "NO!"; he had seemed to be perfectly fine with this version when we were working on the title for this section a few days ago. For that matter, now that I've explained the numerous problems with the "The designer or designers" title to FeloniousMonk, he doesn't seem to have a big problem with "Intelligent cause" either, as the only reason we adopted that title to begin with was to appease some creationist complaints from a while back, and this does an even better job of that. And I know Sunray is fine with "Intelligent cause", even though right now he's pointing out some of the problems with the original grounds for rejecting "Intelligent designer" (i.e. we still don't seem to have any ID sources which explicitly argue for there being more than one intelligent designer..). So what's the problem? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 11:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Consistency of terminology may be an issue. The term is always intelligent designer, with the occasional statement from an ID proponent that it is "designer or designers". The Wikipedia article about the unidentified being(s) thus named is [[Intelligent designer]], not [[Intelligent cause]], for that precise reason. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 11:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
:Agreed with KC about problems of consistency. As FM and others have pointed out on many occasions, though, these are conceptual problems arising out of the inherent conceptual problems of ID. I would add that in addition to Dembski's framing of the issues as singular ''or'' plural, these kinds of conceptual problems occur with all views of the supernatural. By the way, haven't [[trinitarian]]s tended to resist the concept that "God is One" in favor of a three-Person view of the almighty? Or are they just talking about "God the father" here? On the other hand ID supposedly doesn't speak to the point. And to try to justify the contention that ID doesn't speak to the point, its advocates have framed it as "well, could be plural too, we're not speculating about that." Reminds me of David Hume's speculation that it could have been a "committee of dieties". I suspect there is no perfect solution here. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 16:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

::The very first sentence of the article defines intelligent design as the belief that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an '''intelligent cause''', not an undirected process such as natural selection". That's a direct quotation from the official [[Discovery Institute]] website. So clearly the term "intelligent cause" ''is'' in use by IDers, even if it's much less common than "intelligent designer". As such, I see no reason ''not'' to use the more general "intelligent cause" for the section title, if "intelligent designer" is for one reason or another objectionable. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

:::If ''Inteligent designer'' is used more often, it should remain under that as we want to make it accessible to people who look for information.-- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 16:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
::::Personally I have no problem with any of these titles. [[WP:MOS]], unlike the "big three", is merely a widely-agreed-upon guide. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 16:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Then let's use "Intelligent designer". I agree with Kim&mdash;the ideal title here is the simplest and most intuitive one. The complaint that a tiny minority of IDers might, in theory, endorse plural "designers", and that ID itself doesn't necessarily assert plurality or singularity, is a trivial, even irrelevant, one: "intelligent designer" is what IDers themselves most commonly use, so we should simply follow common usage rather than accepting quasi-[[WP:NOR|original research]], ambiguous, uncommon, and needlessly complicated terms like "the designer or designers". However, my main point is that if we can't use "Intelligent designer", "intelligent cause" is the second-best option available, as it is acceptably common and comprehensible and resolves all possible issues of plurality. In fact, the current [[intelligent design]] article uses "intelligent cause" more times in the text than it uses "intelligent designer"! That makes it clear enough that if we can't use "intelligent designer" as the section title, "intelligent cause" is the ideal solution. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::I should also have said I will back whatever the consensus is. Thus far I do not see a mandate to change it. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 16:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Please do not [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIntelligent_design&diff=62044212&oldid=62043684 alter my post] by adding an unnecessary additional indent to it. I was explicitly responding to [[User:KimvdLinde]]'s post, not yours. We do not need a "mandate", we already have plenty of reasoning and argumentation pointing out the numerous problems with the "The designer or designers" title. The only remaining question is what to replace it ''with''; as I see it, "Intelligent designer(s)" still has most of the same problems as the current version, so if we can't use "intelligent designer" (even though there's apparently no problem at all with our article on the topic being named [[Intelligent designer]], and with it never even once alluding to the possibility that there might be more than one designer... oi), "intelligent cause" seems to be the best available option. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::I disagree that inteligent cause is better, as mentionad above. That the text goes in detail, explains it and than uses it is something different that the header text which should be easy to find. I think ''Intelligent designer(s)'' is the best as it makes clear that it can be either, which is a crucial aspect. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 16:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Crucial? It's a fantastically, overwhelmingly ''trivial'' aspect. If it was "crucial", we'd discuss it in this article, or at the very least discuss it in the [[intelligent designer]] article itself. I agree that "Intelligent designer(s)" is a slight step up from the current version, if only because it doesn't imply that the entire section is just a discussion of whether the designer is plural or singular, but it's still a pretty poor title. I'd rate it a 4/10, the current title as a 2/10, "intelligent cause" as a 7/10, and the simplest and most easily understandable title, "intelligent designer", as a 9/10. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, because they make a big fuss of it to show they do not limit it to the designer they actually have in mind. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 17:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::Specific ID advocates who have POV-pushed on this article in the past have made a "big fuss of it". The ID movement itself does not make a "big fuss of it", from what I can see; they couldn't care less about whether we use "intelligent designer" or "intelligent designer(s)", it means the same thing either way. They themselves usually use the former. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::From what I have read everywhere, not only here, they try to make a big fuss of it, but fail often because they actually have a different idea on their mind. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 17:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> How about "Source of intelligent design" ....[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 17:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
:I am fine with that. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 17:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
:How about "intelligent cause"? It has the ''exact'' same meaning as "source of intelligent design". Again, if we aren't going to use "intelligent designer", I see no reason not to use an only slightly less common, recognizable, and simple term for the concept rather than a dramatically less common, recognizable, or simple one. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
::Repeat, see argument above. To vague. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 17:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
:::No. Period. You've flogged this horse enough, haven't you? "Intelligent cause" changes the agency of design, and misses the point regarding ID being no more than creationism with a veneer of crappy scientific-sounding slop. And by the way, designers is quite applicable based on the quoute from Dembski contained herein (in case you missed it above): [http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&program=CSC%20Responses&id=1283]. Note: '"It could be space aliens," said William Dembski, a mathematician and philosopher at Baylor University in Texas and author of "No Free Lunch," a new book on intelligent design. "There are many possibilities."'[http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&program=CSCStories&id=1139]. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
::::It is perhaps representative of the office politics around here lately, that this talk section started out as an observation about the lengthy discussion of minor changes to the article (avoiding link redirects, a couple of spelling errors, and other such miscellany), and ends up in a lengthy discussion of one particular substantive edit, one of many that were initially implemented ''en masse''. As I said twice before, along with several other editors saying a similar thing, minor changes such as any remaining obvious link errors and the like can readily be implemented without further discussion, one or two changes at a time with a meaningful edit note (e.g. "avoid link redirect", "spelling", "minor syntax adjustment", etc.) Section title changes, as we have seen, are not minor edits, and it was heartening to me to see this issue discussed more thoroughly. Possibly one of the editors can now start a new section about additional sustantive issue(s) on that list of [[User_talk:Silence/ID|43 edits]] mentioned above? Just a suggestion--by one editor. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 19:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

This has been an illuminating discussion and I agree with Kenosis that as much of the discussion has been about a Section title (and an important one at that), it has overshadowed the agreement to proceed with copyediting changes a few at a time. The discussion has been complicated by the lack of clarity in Dembski's presentation. His writing is, at times, opaque, and he doesn't seem clear on whether "designers" is a real possiblity. (Thanks to Jim62sch for providing those links). In the first one ("Elliott Sober's Independent Evidence Requirement for Design,") after going on about aliens being the "designers," he concludes by saying:
<blockquote>"But once independent evidence for design needs merely to establish that there exists '''''a designer''''' with the causal power and opportunity to produce the effect in question (as in the alien thought experiment and in the gambling example)..." (emphasis mine).</blockquote>

I think that this ''aliens'' stuff is a red herring. In most religions worldwide there is a ''creator'' god or fundamental source of life. Kenosis mentions trinitarians. However, both the Christian and Vedantic Hindu trinities have one creator. I would submit that the idea of ''Creator'' is the very basis of ''Intelligent Design.'' Nevertheless, I asked for cites and Dembski is certainly one. If we think his work reflects a significant aspect of ''Intelligent Design'' thinking, then we sould go with the plural, or as Silence has suggested "Intelligent cause." While that term is an elegant way around the problem, some object to its use. I'm fine with the consensus. Would a vote be useful at this point? Whether or not we vote, I think we should get on with the editing process meanwhile. Silence? [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 20:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

*The level of contradiction and inconsistency here is remarkable. If there is a problem with using the term "intelligent cause", then why do we use it ''more often'' than "intelligent designer", in all of the following places in the page, several of them ''direct quotations'' from the ID movement?:
:*''Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause,''
:*''Intelligent design proponents say that while evidence pointing to the nature of an "intelligent cause or agent" may not be directly observable,''
:*''"Proponents of intelligent design regard it as a scientific research program that investigates the effects of intelligent causes.''
:*''Note that intelligent design studies the effects of intelligent causes''
:*''and not intelligent causes per se."''
:*''one can infer that it was produced by an intelligent cause (i.e., that it was designed)''
:*''lacking a natural explanation for certain specific aspects of evolution, we assume intelligent cause.''
*If there is a problem with alluding to the predominance of belief in a singular "designer" in this specific section, why it is unproblematic in the title of the article [[Intelligent designer]] or in any of the following excerpts from this page? Here's just a few of them, not even listing any of the dozens of singular uses in [[Intelligent designer]]:
:*''best explained by '''an''' intelligent cause''
:*''physical properties of an object that point to '''a''' designer''
:*''the nature of '''an''' "intelligent cause or agent"''
:*''questions concerning the identity of '''a''' designer''
:*''does not try to identify or name '''the specific''' agent of creation''
:*''does not name '''the''' designer''
:*''is that '''the''' designer is the Christian god''
:*''that it was produced by '''an''' intelligent cause''
:*''they argue, '''an''' intelligent designer of life was needed''
:*''intentionally avoid identifying '''the''' intelligent agent they posit''
:*''that God is '''the''' designer,''
:*'''''the''' designer is often''
:*''that they believe '''the''' designer to be the Christian God''
:*''asks why '''a''' designer would... and why '''he or she''' wouldn't...''
:*''were not placed there by '''a''' designer''
:*''that we are simply incapable of understanding '''the''' designer's motives,''
:*''"have been placed there by '''the''' designer''
:*''or '''the''' intelligent designer is''
:*''the need for '''a''' designer of complexity''
:*''"what designed '''the''' designer?"''
:*''the claim that '''the''' designer need not be explained''
:*''"what designed '''the''' designer?"''
:*''avoid positing the identity of '''the''' designer.''
:*''in their view '''the''' designer of life is God.''
:*''a god or an "alien life force" as two possible options for the identity of '''the''' designer.''
:*''that '''an''' intelligent designer is behind''
:*''that '''an''' intelligent designer (a god or an alien life force)''
*Heck, even when the article mentions that an "alien life force" or other potentially plural entity is the intelligent designer, it ''still'' explicitly refers to the being as "''the'' designer"! That shows that the term is fully applicable regardless of whether ''the designer'' is ultimately plural or singular, hence the article title "intelligent designer"!
*If "intelligent cause" is an unacceptable term, despite its wide and clear usage and its avoiding the "singular designer" problem, then we should remove all its other incidences from the article; if it is unacceptable to mention a singular designer or cause without also explicitly stating that it "could be more than one", then we should certainly edit all of the above examples of a single intelligence being alluded to with more inclusive ones, like "best explained by an intelligent cause or agent" replaced with "best explained by one or more intelligent causes or agents". Oy vey. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

:Well, here's an idea: why not rewrite the enite article in your user space and let's see how that goes. No doubt you could do a much better job than the inconsistant fumbling idiots who've been writing the article and trying to incorporate the opinions and assuage the minds of almost every person who's complained about something or other so far. Take your time. This article will still be here.[[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

==Hook, Line, and Sinker==

In the United States, when a person is tricked into accepting propaganda as truth, that person may be described as having intellectually swallowed the propagandist's bait "hook, line, and sinker."

The Wikipedia page about intelligent design is an example of propaganda being swallowed hook, line, and sinker. The first sentence of that page begins with an opinion about intelligent design. That opinion is mistakenly presented as a "concept". An elaborate discussion of that "concept" is then presented.

The mislabeled "concept" serves the purposes of intelligent design propagandists. They are allowed to present their opinion of intelligent design as though their opinion is a definition of intelligent design. This trick relieves them of the obligation to provide a definition of intelligent design.

Wikipedians should not be subjected to such trickery. The first paragraph of Wikipedia's intelligent design page should be revised to read as follows:

Intelligent design is the assertion that the universe was designed and created by an intelligent designer. According to associates of the Discovery Institute, this assertion is justified by "certain features of the universe and of living things." The associates believe that those features "are best explained by an intelligent cause."

The foregoing suggested paragraph appropriately separates the definition of intelligent design from the opinion of the proponents of intelligent design. The trickery is thereby eliminated.

Scott G. Beach 21:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
:Consider though that 'assertion' suggests belief, whereas ID portrays itself as a science. If I assert that the universe was created by an intelligence, I state that I believe that to be true. :Please, in future, try to make your point less elaborately. -- [[User talk:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 22:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

::Ec:

::You wrote, "ID portrays itself as a science." Intelligent design is not capable of portraying itself as a science.

::A person can express the opinion that intelligent design is a scientific theory. For example, associates of the Discovery Institute regard intelligent design as a "theory." In contrast, I regard intelligent design as a theology.

::Is English your native language? When you participate in these discussions, please try to avoid using intelligent design as though it has the capacity to express an opinion or make an assertion.

::Please note that we English speakers sometimes make assertions "for the sake of discussion", not necessarily because we "believe" those assertions to be true. An assertion may also be presented for the purpose of proving that the opposite is true. The logical method known as reductio ad absurdum (reduction to absurdity) can be used in this way.

::Scott G. Beach

I think that "assertion" in place of "concept" is a good idea. We argued about this a number of months ago and I don't think that anyone offered this as a possibility. --[[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] 02:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

::So the assertion here is that the first paragraph should read as follows?: ,,, [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 03:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
::*'''Intelligent design''' ('''ID''') is the assertion that "certain features of the [[universe]] and of living things are best explained by an [[intelligent designer|intelligent cause]], not an undirected process such as [[natural selection]]."<sup>[1]</sup> Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the [[Discovery Institute]],<sup>[2]</sup> say that intelligent design is a [[Science|scientific]] [[theory]] that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the [[evolution]] and [[origin of life]].<sup>[3]</sup> ... 03:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I am quite capable of speaking English, thank you very much. Are you honestly trying to dismiss my point on the basis that I might not speak English? You may want to consider making your points without going off on irrelevant tangents.
:::We English speakers should look up 'assertion' in a dictionary. According to dictionary.com, for example, an assertion is "Something declared or stated positively, often with no support or attempt at proof." Assertion often connotes belief. Now, you may not have been around here long, but I predict that at some point in the not too distant future, someone will object to ID being portrayed as an assertion. ID is a science, after all, n'est ce pas?
:::Certainly, 'concept' is not perfect, but assertion will be regarded as point of view. -- [[User talk:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 04:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:I'm sorry Scott, but why is "concept" inaccurate or less accurate than "assertion" as it applies to ID? Exactly how does saying ID is a ''concept'' "serve the purposes of intelligent design propagandists"?

:Your objection would make some sense were the ID article to present ID as a ''scientific theory'' (which is what ID proponents say it is after all), but the article avoids that issue by calling it a ''concept''. And all three definitions in the common definition of 'concept' ID are extremely apt in applying to ID I think. [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=concept&db=*] [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 04:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

::Actually, the use if "assertion" makes it less NPOV as assertion has certain negative connotations, whereas concept is more neutral. Had the article said "theory", allowing some possibility that it was perhaps a "scientific theory" your argument might have some validity.
::Additionally, I don't think that any of the regular editors here have swallowed anything "hook, line and sinker"; rather we abide, to the best of our ability, by NPOV. Writing this article has been a delicate balancing act, and while we may occasionally fall into the netting, I think we've spent far more time walking successfully on the wire. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 09:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Jim, Monk, Ec:

The Discovery Institute rhetorically asks, "What is the theory of intelligent design?" Then, instead of answering their rhetorical question by providing a definition of intelligent design, the Discovery Institute asserts that intelligent design is the "best" explanation. Their opinion of the merits of intelligent design should not be referred to as a "concept." It should be made very clear that they are stating their opinion rather than a definition.

I have previously suggested that the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page about intelligent design be revised in a way that "separates the definition of intelligent design from the opinion of the proponents of intelligent design." I suggested that this could be accomplished by revising that paragraph to read as follows:
:Intelligent design is the assertion that the universe was designed and created by an intelligent designer. According to associates of the Discovery Institute, this assertion is justified by "certain features of the universe and of living things." The associates believe that those features "are best explained by an intelligent cause."

This revision would take the value judgment "best" out of the definition of intelligent design and present that judgment separately as a belief held by associates of the Discovery Institute.

I believe that the Wikipedia page about intelligent design should begin with a simple, value-free definition of intelligent design.

Scott G. Beach

:What the Discovery Institute actually says is "''The '''theory''' of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.''"[http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php#questionsAboutIntelligentDesign] Calling it a concept here, acknowledging that ID being a legitimate "theory" is strongly rejected by the majority viewpoint, is a fair compromise and does not play into the institute's game. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 18:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

== Removal of edits ==
[[User:202.173.128.90|202.173.128.90]] has posted the following on my talk page. I am placing it here for open discussion in the appropriate forum. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 07:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Sir.

Regarding your removal of my edits from the Intelligent design article, I am curious as to the reason you reverted to a previous version. Being a Wikipedia newbie, I certainly concede to more experienced users, however, I feel it appropriate to defend my edit.

"Intelligent design is presented as an alternative to [[natural science|natural]] explanations for [[evolution]]. This stands in opposition to conventional [[biology|biological]] science, which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world through observed physical processes such as [[mutation]] and [[natural selection]]..."

The preceding quote is the reason for my edit. The following statement, "which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world through observed physical processes" seems to imply that "conventional biology" has evidence that living cells can evolve from non-living elements, when in fact, no such evidence exists. Laboratory experiments involving the "accidental" creation of an amino acid are a long way from demonstrating spontaneous generation of living cells, and so the claim that evolution-supporting biologists rely on experimentation and observed physical processes is misleading. If only observed physical processes were considered, then evolution would have to be excluded from viability as spontaneous cellular generation has never been observed.

And so it seemed appropriate to add the following:

", although ID proponents and critics of evolutionary theory have cited a complete absence of observable phenomena demonstrating abiogenesis (which is needed for the evolutionary model to be viable)."

If my manner, or positioning of the edit was flawed, I apologize, but I stand by the edit. I believe it has value as a balance for the paragraph.

Thank you,

W. Jones

::Dear Mr.or Ms. Jones: Actually your edits had already been removed by two other editors. I reverted to the last known consensused version, then re-implemented an edit that Dave Souza apparently considered reasonable. I believe your edits started [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=62138761&oldid=62128283 here] and went through [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=62140291&oldid=62139166 here], then were sequentially reverted by Scienceman123 and Dave Souza. I might speculate that the content you added was reverted because the framework of evolution does not necessarily address the question of abiogenesis, just as, for example, the study of [http://www.shvoong.com/science/200806-article-recent-red-shifts/ expansion_of_the_cosmos] might not directly address the question of the dynamics of the [[Big bang]]. But I would prefer to hear from Scienceman and Dave Souza to know better about their reasons. If I had noticed it, though, I too would have reverted the changes you made. Regards, and thank you for the note. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 07:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
:::I've responded at inordinate length to a similar comment on my talk page, and have no particular problem with "conventional" instead of "mainstream". [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 08:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
::::There are, of course, semantic differences between the two words, but probably not significant enough to raise a major ruckus over. Abiogenesis is, however, a separate issue. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 09:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

==Problem sentence==
''Intelligent design's stated<ref>"ID's rejection of naturalism in any form logically entails its appeal to the only alternative, supernaturalism, as a putatively scientific explanation for natural phenomena. This makes ID a religious belief. In addition, my research reveals that ID is not science, but the newest variant of traditional American creationism. With only a few exceptions, it continues the usual complaints of creationists against the theory of evolution and comprises virtually all the elements of traditional creationism." [[Barbara Forrest]] April 2005 Expert Witness Report. ''[[Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District]]''. [http://www2.ncseweb.org/kvd/experts/Forrest_expert_report.pdf] </ref> purpose is to investigate whether or not existing [[empiricism|empirical]] evidence implies that life on Earth must have been designed by an [[intelligence (trait)|intelligent]] agent or agents.''

A concept has stated its purpose? When? Where? Says who? The only source in the sentence has an unclear connection to the sentence. May I delete the sentence? What is trying to be communicated here? What source backs that up? Why not just delete it? [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 16:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:Don't delete the sentence, find a better reference for it and move the reference to a part of the page where it's actually relevant. It has absolutely nothing to do with its current context. I recommended such a move at the bottom of [[User talk:Silence/ID]]. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:No, it's necessary. It originally, before some recent editing, illustrated an important point, though perhaps it doesn't clearly enough now and needs to be expanded and clarified.

:It originally illustrated that though ID proponents say to the public the purpose of ID is search for design, they say to their constituency and each other that the goal of ID is to "''overthrow of materialism and its damning cultural legacies''" by reinstating "''The proposition that human beings are created in the image of God''." [http://web.archive.org/web/19970514072337/http://www.discovery.org/crsc/aboutcrsc.html] That ID proponents are demonstrably speaking out of both sides of their mouth, that the stated purpose of ID is merely a pretense is an important point that any complete ID article will need to cover. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 18:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

::The overview section as it currently stands communicates nothing of the sort. It merely repeats the propaganda of its proponets without adequately addressing the misinformation. ''Someone'' needs to rewrite it so it ''again'' addresses the misinformation as it did ''originally''. Care to give it a try, FM? [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 18:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:::As I said, it doesn't clearly enough now illustrate the point. I'll either rewrite it, or more likely look for an additional or better cite where the point is made. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 18:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

::FeloniousMonk, the article ''does'' explain that, quite clearly. Read [[Intelligent_design#Movement]]. If you want to expand the first paragraph of "Overview" to briefly mention that as well, that's perfectly fine. The problem is that the "expert testimony" reference has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. And contradictory quotations from the ID movemenent's leaders are much more compelling and direct than external criticism, no matter how valid. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 18:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Best handled in the Overview section by a footnote to a better quote from the same source or a new source, I'd think. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 18:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Fine, do it. ... Please. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 18:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::I've added some clarification in the footnote with several new cites. I'll add an additional cite or two tomorrow from Kitzmiller as well. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 05:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

==Intelligent Design Truthfully Defined==

The Discovery Institute rhetorically asks, "What is the theory of intelligent design?" Then, instead of answering that rhetorical question by providing a definition of intelligent design, the Discovery Institute asserts that intelligent design is the "best" explanation for the existence of the universe. So the question "What is the theory of intelligent design?" remains to be answered.

I propose that intelligent design be defined as follows: "The theory of intelligent design holds that America's moral decay can be reversed by (1) discrediting the theory of evolution by natural selection and (2) promoting a proposition which infers that the universe was created by God."

The proponents of intelligent design are trying to put their theory into practice. They may therefore be described as a "revitalization movement."

:Revitalization movement: political-religious movements promising deliverance from deprivation, the elimination of foreign domination, and a new interpretation of the human condition based on traditional cultural values...

::The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, http://www.bartleby.com/65/re/revitali.html

Scott G. Beach

::What you are describing is a polemic basis for intelligent design, not intelligent design itself. Please see [[Wedge Strategy]] for more. --[[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] 19:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

:::The Wikipedia page about the "Wedge Strategy" describes intelligent design as the "controversial conjecture that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not a naturalistic process such as natural selection." The words "controversial conjecture" accurately describe intelligent design. However, that description does not constitute a definition of intelligent design. I still believe that intelligent design can be defined as "the assertion that the universe was designed and created by an intelligent designer." Please note that this definition does NOT include the value judgment "best." Scott G. Beach
::::It does however include the word 'assertion'. Have you ignored everything we've said? -- [[User talk:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 04:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::Ec:

::::::You have objected to the word "assertion". The word "proposition" means "a subject for discussion or analysis." The word "proposition" could be used in place of "assertion." However, this is not my primary concern. I strongly object to intelligent design being defined in a way that includes a value judgment. Inserting "best" into a definition of intelligent design transforms that definition into an opinion, and doing that is just silly because an opinion CANNOT be used as a definition.

::::::If the IDists want to present intelligent design as a "theory" then they should refrain from putting their own opinion into the statement of their "theory."

::::::A theoretician who puts a value judgment into the statement of a theory thereby makes his "theory" into an opinion. Scientists do not put value judgments into theory statements but propagandists do, and when they do that they know that they are engaging in anti-scientific trickery. They are defiling science and should be condemned for doing so. Scott G. Beach

:::::::The point of the current wording was to use the Discovery Institute's own words to describe Intelligent Design, and it has been quite effective at stopping people from wantonly changing the wording.
:::::::You propose to change the wording on the basis that the current wording includes the word 'best', however your proposed wording does something similar, as proponents of Intelligent Design do not officially state that "the universe ''was'' designed and created by an intelligent designer". They state that they have uncovered evidence that suggests it is likely. So, "Intelligent Design is the assertion (or proposition) that scientific evidence suggests that it is likely the universe was designed and created by an intelligent designer." This seems a rather elaborate way of putting it, though.
:::::::And for the record, ID proponents should be condemned. But we are not the people to do it, not here. Here, we describe the phenomenon, and try to explain why the scientific community can not embrace ID. Here, we make note of the apparent duplicity in statements made by ID proponents. But we do not condemn. -- [[User talk:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 08:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

::To Scott G. Beach: I truly appreciate your observations and your assertion that the logic in the first paragaph of the article is significantly flawed. Even a very astute grouping of editors, such as have clustered around this particular article, will occasionally miss important points that take yet another astute participant to point out. This issue you've raised, however, is irrelevant in the first paragraph of the article. The reason is that some months ago, after extremely extensive debate, an agreement was made involving numerous editors both pro-ID and anti-ID, and/or of mixed opinion or ostensibly neutral on the subject. The first paragraph of the introduction was agreed to be a brief paragraph with a faithful representation of the concept of ID as framed by ID advocates, as well as of who the principal advocates are.
::Such a consensus can of course be re-consensused. But it appears to me it would requrie an extremely lengthy new debate and need to be an equivalently strong consensus involving the entire introduction. And I don't see any new information that requires an extremely lengthy new debate, new set of compromises, and new consensus on the entire three-paragraph introduction. Perhaps you've observed that even the relatively minor items regarding this subject can involve a great deal of debate. Your points are nonetheless very well taken, by me at least. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 06:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
:::I'd certainly prefer to not go through that process, nor do I see any compelling need to do so. I understand Scott's points, but I agree with Ec that it is most certainly not our place to condemn ID. In fact, were we to rewrite the intro to emphasize the propaganda point we'd not only violate NPOV, but we'd in essence be creating what might be construed as an attack article.
:::Thus, the introduction as it currently exists -- i,.e., using DI's words to define ID -- sets up the remainder of the article quite well. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 09:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Kenosis:

Thank you for letting me know that my points are "very well taken." The reason for my strenuous objections to "best" grow out of what I learned in the 8th grade. Social studies teachers throughout our school district were required to teach us the techniques of propaganda for the purpose of inoculating us against pro-communist propaganda that was being published by the Soviet Union. Since that time, I have been on the lookout for instances of propaganda, and when I find it I deconstruct it and try to expose it for what it is. And I may then try to reconstruct it so that people can clearly see the truth.
You and other editors have worked out a peace treaty with the IDists. Okay, I accept the terms of that treaty in this context. Scott G. Beach (P.S. When I spell-checked the foregoing text, my spell-checker flagged "IDists" and suggested that I use "Idiots" instead. I was tempted!)
:Scott: I'll be sure to pass this onto the DI for their analysis. Perhaps they would be disturbed to learn that you misunderstood your 8th-grade teacher's intentions. The intention was for you to deconstruct ''only'' communist propoganda. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 17:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

::Well, if we've managed to anger both ID advocates and critics here, we must have done something right. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 17:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm probably wrong (or possibly being uncivil), but I beliee it's called NPOV. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 00:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

==IDCAD, part 3: Origins of the concept==
Parts 1 and 2 of the "in-depth copyedit analysis and discussion" have been inactive for quite a while now (even though we haven't gotten enough feedback on changes 13, 15 or 16 yet), and FeloniousMonk has encouraged me to hurry up with the listing (though he has yet to specify how he'd prefer me to do so), so here's the next part.

The "origins of the concept" section was the first part of the page where [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligent_design&diff=60807064&oldid=60770827 significant changes] were required just for a first-run copyedit. The beginning of the section suffered from bloat due to accumulation of trivia; the end of the section was completely unrelated to the rest of the section, summarizing specific ID beliefs without any information at all on the history or origins of the ID concept; and some of the middle, dealing with natural theology's relationship with modern creationism, required moving around to fix some poor organization and flow of ideas.

There are still a fair number of evident problems with this section even after my copyedit. For example, the characterization of intelligent design as just "a modern reframing of [[natural theology]]" smacks of potential [[WP:NOR|original research]] to me, and will probably require a reference of some sort to give this segue solid ground to stand on. In the sentence in the middle of the section which I moved, there seemed to be a subtle pro-[[theistic evolution]] advocacy leaning that had developed (similar to what happens at the end of the "Controversy" section further down the article), which I tried to dull down a bit. There's also not much information on the ''modern'' "origins of the concept" of ID, which are surely more directly significant and clearly relevant than quoting Cicero or Heraclitus, and what little there is needs a bit of work: the paragraph on the "earliest known modern version of intelligent design" is short and consists almost entirely of a single quotation from Forrest, even though rephrasing is generally preferable to direct quotations when describing a factual event rather than a personal opinion. (Sometime after we're done going through my initial copyedits to the article, I have some useful supplemental references that may be able to help in this respect.)

Still, the edits here will remedy most of the simple, obvious problems that are evident in a read-through of the section, and should provide us with a very valuable starting point in terms of tidying this section up and making it more consistent with the rest of the article's quality and tightness.

===Changes 1-4 (3)===
These changes deal with the beginning of the first paragraph:

*1. Change <nowiki>"[[Ancient Greece|Greek]] philosophy" to "[[Greek philosophy]]"</nowiki>.
*2. Replace [[scare quotes]] with italics for new/foreign term "''[[Logos]]''".
*3. Remove tangential biographical details from "is typically credited to [[Heraclitus]] <s>(c. 535&ndash;c.475 [[Common era|BCE]]), a Pre-Socratic philosopher</s>, and". It is completely unnecessary to provide estimated birth and death dates on the [[Intelligent design]] article for a philosopher who was not even a part of the ID movement; providing a link to his article is completely sufficient, as anyone interested can visit that page. Likewise, "Pre-Socratic philosopher" is a distinction that will be meaningless to those of our readers who are unfamiliar with Western philosophy historiological terms, and one that is not relevant here, especially since we don't mention Socrates anywhere (because he isn't directly relevant to early ID-like concepts). Several people have complained that this article is already too long; trivial biographical factoids like these are a part of the reason why, and in any case will bore the heck out of readers who just came here to learn about ID, not to get a crash course on the [[history of Western philosophy]]. Only the relevant information should be included.
*4. For the same reason as Heraclitus, remove "(c. 427&ndash;c. 347 BCE)" after Plato's name is mentioned.

After the first four have been discussed, I'll move on to the next 4. As always, comments, questions and criticisms are welcome. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 14:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

My opinion:
#yes
#yes
#no - Dates are relevant when detailing the ''history'' of the concept.
#no
[[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 15:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

And mine:
#OK
#OK
#No per WAS.
#No
[[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 15:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

:Regarding 3&ndash;4, I am afraid you are both mistaken. Yes, this is a history section, but it is not a history section about the history of Western philosophy, it is a history section about the history of ''intelligent design''! Consequently, a date is only relevant if it is the date of an important event in the history of intelligent design.
:If ''any date at all'' were relevant simply because a section deals with history, it'd be madness; we'd have more numbers than letters in Wikipedia's history sections! This is obviously not the case, despite WAS's claim. Rather, a date is included or not included based on how directly relevant it is to the topic being discussed. There is a continuum of progressively less relevant dates. For example, the date of the publication of ''Of Pandas and People'' is clearly relevant to an article on intelligent design. The date of the publication of Paley's ''Natural Theology'' is arguably relevant to an article on intelligent design. And the date of Heraclitus's birth is clearly irrelevant to an article on intelligent design.
:At ''most'', including the year or century in which the relevant work in question (e.g. Plato's ''Timaeus'', Cicero's ''de Natura Deorum'', Aquinas's ''Summa Theologiae'', etc.) was written might be appropriate; but including the estimated birth and date years for every single half-mentioned person with a conjectured, obscure link to one or more of the concepts of modern ID, even though we don't even go that far with people ''actually involved ithe ID movement'' (surely [[Phillip E. Johnson]]'s date of birth is dozens of times more relevant than [[Cicero]]'s!), is inconsistent, arbitrary, and contributing heavily to trivia-bloat. We have other articles for these dates. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
:#Fine, [[Greek philosophy]] is an improved link
:#Although these are not, and do not appear to have been intended to be, "scare quotes", do change "logos" to ''logos''.
:#No. The dates give a perspective on the ''time period'' involved. The concept of ''logos'' was a ''lifelong'' preoccupation of a many of the Classical philosophers, such as Heraclitus and Plato, with Aristotle making very good use of the legacy in his syntheses.
:#No, for the same reason as above.
:[[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 18:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
::Stating what century or general period the events in question occur in would more than suffice. For example, one could easily include that Cicero wrote in the 1st century BC without going into the irrelevant level of detail (as we currently do) that he was born in c. 106 BC and died in c. 43 BC. Specific birth and death dates are unacceptably trivial and do not contribute to a better understanding of [[intelligent design]], the topic of this article. Numerous significant, directly relevant details about ID have been left out for the sake of conciseness in this article; including so many irrelevant factoids about ancient Western philosophers is horrifyingly inconsistent and arbitrary. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 18:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
:::You argue for consistency. This section of the article consistently gives lifespan dates. I you want dates of the works referred to, here they are: Plato's ''Timaeus'' is typically dated "circa 360 BC"; "4th Century BC" would not be unreasonable here either. Aristotle's ''Metaphysics'' was written "between 336-323 B.C." (historians arrived at this by fitting pieces of the overall puzzle together), so "also 4th Century BC" is acceptable here. Cicero's ''de Natura Deorum'' was written in 45 B.C, and "1st Century BC" is fine too. If that is what you want to put in place of lifespan dates, fine. Leave Heraclitus alone, or put "6th and 5th Century BC". Inconsistent? Gimme a break. This whole discussion is completely unnecessary if you ask me, which you didn't, but I'm saying it anyway. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 19:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Puppy input:
# Yes
# Yes
# Leaning towards no: I would be comfortable with 1st century if only so many people who might be interested in this topic did not know when that occurred. I hope that is clear enough without being too pointed.
# No, per Kenosis et al. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 18:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

*There seems to be a misunderstanding at work here. I am not proposing that dates be removed from the section. I am proposing that they be ''fixed'': rather than providing irrelevant birthdates and deathdates for philosophers only tangentially related to the modern ID movement, why not provide exactly enough information to put them in their historical context, as Kenosis correctly noted is the only purpose of using dates in this part of the article at all? The only reason we could possibly want to note when Cicero was born and died is so users would know that he lived in the 1st century BC, not the 5th century BC or the 14th century AD or the 1980s or whatever. For the purposes of the ID article, users only need to know that fact, ''at most''; they do not need to know whether he died in 43 BC or 44 BC. Consequently, it only makes sense to provide exactly as much detail as the article merits; mention the century when the events take place when it's unclear exactly when they did, and kill two birds with one stone mentioning the date of publication of the work in question (if it's known with relative certainty), e.g. for Cicero and Paley. Here is a comparison of the original paragraphs and the revised version (ignore the other changes I made, like defining ''Logos'' for our readers so they understand its significance and fixing some wording, for now; I'll get to those alterations later, just compare the greatly-simplified and much more useful and consistent dating).

{|
!width="400"|Original version (1st para, start of 2nd)
!width="400"|New version (1st para, start of 2nd)
|-
|bgcolor="#FFEFEF"| For millennia, philosophers have argued that the complexity of nature indicates the existence of a purposeful natural or supernatural designer/creator. The first recorded arguments for a natural designer come from [[Ancient Greece|Greek]] philosophy. The philosophical concept of the "[[Logos]]" is typically credited to [[Heraclitus]] (c. 535&ndash;c.475 [[Common era|BCE]]), a Pre-Socratic philosopher, and is briefly explained in his extant fragments.<ref>Heraclitus of Ephesus, The G.W.T. Patrick translation [http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/heraclitus/herpatu.htm#2] </ref> [[Plato]] (c. 427&ndash;c. 347 BCE) posited a natural "[[demiurge]]" of supreme wisdom and intelligence as the creator of the cosmos in his work ''[[Timaeus (dialogue)|Timaeus]]''. [[Aristotle]] (c. 384&ndash;322 BCE) also developed the idea of a natural creator of the cosmos, often referred to as the "[[Cosmological argument|Prime Mover]]" in his work ''[[Metaphysics (Aristotle)|Metaphysics]]''. In his ''de Natura Deorum'' (On the Nature of the Gods) [[Cicero]] (c. 106&ndash;c. 43 BCE) stated, "The divine power is to be found in a principle of reason which pervades the whole of nature."<ref> [http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cicero/nd.shtml Cicero, The Latin Library] </ref>

The use of this line of reasoning as applied to a supernatural designer has come to be known as the [[teleological argument]] for the existence of [[God]]. The most notable forms of this argument were expressed by [[Thomas Aquinas]] in his ''[[Summa Theologiae]]''<ref>Thomas Aquinas, 1265-1272. ''Summa Theologiae''. "[http://www.faithnet.org.uk/AS%20Subjects/Philosophyofreligion/fiveways.htm Thomas Aquinas' 'Five Ways']" In ''faithnet.org.uk'', He [[Wikisource:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District 2: context#Page 24 of 139|framed the argument as a syllogism]]: Wherever complex design exists, there must have been a designer; nature is complex; therefore nature must have had an intelligent designer.</ref> (thirteenth century), design being the fifth of Aquinas' five proofs for God's existence, and [[William Paley]] in his book ''Natural Theology'' (1802),<ref>William Paley: ''[http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/p/pd-modeng/pd-modeng-idx?type=header&id=PaleyNatur Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity]'' (London: 1809), Twelfth Edition.</ref> where he uses the [[watchmaker analogy]], which is still used in intelligent design arguments.
|bgcolor="#EFEFFF"| For millennia, philosophers have argued that the complexity of nature indicates the existence of a purposeful natural or supernatural designer/creator. The first recorded arguments for a natural designer come from [[Greek philosophy]]. The philosophical concept of the ''[[Logos]]'', an inherent order and rationality to the universe, is typically credited to [[Heraclitus]] in the 5th century BC, and is briefly explained in his extant fragments.<ref>[[Heraclitus]] of Ephesus, The G.W.T. Patrick translation.[http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/heraclitus/herpatu.htm#2]</ref> In the 4th century BC, [[Plato]] posited a natural "[[demiurge]]" of supreme wisdom and intelligence as the creator of the cosmos in his work ''[[Timaeus (dialogue)|Timaeus]]''. [[Aristotle]] also developed the idea of a natural creator of the cosmos, often referred to as the "[[Cosmological argument|Prime Mover]]", in his work ''[[Metaphysics (Aristotle)|Metaphysics]]''. In his ''de Natura Deorum'', or "''On the Nature of the Gods''" (45 BC), [[Cicero]] stated that "the divine power is to be found in a principle of reason which pervades the whole of nature".<ref>[[Cicero]], ''de Natura Deorum'', [http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cicero/nd.shtml Latin Library].</ref>

The use of this line of reasoning as applied to a supernatural designer has come to be known as the [[teleological argument]] for the existence of [[God]]. The most notable forms of this argument were expressed in the 13th century by [[Thomas Aquinas]] in his ''[[Summa Theologiae]]'',<ref>[[Thomas Aquinas]], ''[[Summa Theologiae]]''. "[http://www.faithnet.org.uk/AS%20Subjects/Philosophyofreligion/fiveways.htm Thomas Aquinas' 'Five Ways']" in ''faithnet.org.uk''. He [[Wikisource:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District 2: context#Page 24 of 139|framed the argument]] as a [[syllogism]]: Wherever complex design exists, there must have been a designer; nature is complex; therefore nature must have had an intelligent designer.</ref> design being the fifth of Aquinas' five proofs for God's existence, and by [[William Paley]] in his book ''Natural Theology'' (1802),<ref>[[William Paley]], ''[http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/p/pd-modeng/pd-modeng-idx?type=header&id=PaleyNatur Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity]'', 1809, London, Twelfth Edition.</ref> where he uses the [[watchmaker analogy]], an argument still used by intelligent design proponents today.
|}

-[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
::If these changes were made as one group with an edit summary, there's a strong chance other editors would back you up, I iwould magine. But I can only speak from myself. They're very reasonable changes, Silence. Two things: Heraclitus was already 64 years old when the 5th century came around. Thus he is of the 6th and 5th Century BC. The other thing is that most people don't remember when Aristotle came, in my experience. He came just after, and actually overlapped Plato for many years, writing concurrently with each other (as all the editors here already know, of course). Do mention "also in the 4th Century BC" or some similar qualifier to at least roughly refresh the readers' perspective on the timeline here. Very reasonable changes in my opinion. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 00:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Actually, Heraclitus was only about about 35 years old when the [[5th century BC]] began (the year 500). It is doubtful that he had done much philosophizing by this point, so it seems safe to date the popularization of the ''[[logos]]'' idea to the 5th century. As for Plato and Aristotle, the fact that they were contemporaries is implied by the fact that they are both mentioned in the context of the "In the 4th century BC" dating scheme. It is redundant to restate the date when there is no significant time lapse; we should reserve mentioning dates for when a ''different'' time period is being discussed, for the same reason we don't restate "In the 20th century" every other paragraph when discussing the modern ID movement. And, thanks for the support. Hopefully the others will agree that so many specific, tangentially-relevant dates are unnecessary here. As for the other changes, I'll get around to them after we're finished discussing the dates. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 00:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
::::Yes, correct about the 35 years (duhh, LOL at myself). So most of his productive work was early 5th Century BC. Either way, this is a reasonable way of doing it. If there are going to be consistent references to the century rather than lifespan, I support it. Also, I would support a shot at quickly stating roughly what the ''logos'' means (no capitalization needed). It actually is a multifaceted and broad concept with multiple meanings, so I wouldn't wanna surmise that someone won't come along and mess with that definition. But it's a reasonable interpretation you've offered, and I wouldn't object to trying it in those few words. Therefore, I change my #3 and #4 above to support a consistent change such as you've offered. ...[[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 02:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

My two cents:
#Yes
#Yes
#I don't mind either way!
#same as 3
[[User:Jgarth|Jgarth]] 02:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:All looks good to me. A minor point, while some people hate "over-linking", in this case it would be worth linking [[4th century BC]], for example, to show the context, imo. ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 09:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

::1 and 2 yes. 3 and 4, yes, assuming the new version is adopted (which it likely will). Agree with Dave regarding the linking. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 10:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I have no opinion regarding whether or not to link to the centuries. Although I'm sure that a lot of people would disagree that a link would be relevant to context here, If you think it would be helpful, feel free to add it. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 18:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

===Changes 5-8 (3)===
These changes deal with the end of the first paragraph (and with defining ''logos'' near its beginning, which I forget to mention earlier):

*5. For the same reason as Heraclitus and Plato, remove "(c. 384&ndash;322 BCE)" after Aristotle's name is mentioned ''(replace with "In the 4th century," before Plato and Aristotle are mentioned, to put in historical context)'' and remove "(c. 106&ndash;c. 43 BCE)" after Cicero's name is mentioned ''(replace with a simple note of when On the Nature of the Gods was published, 45 BC)''.
*6. Add quotation marks to translated title, "''de Natura Deorum'' ("On the Nature of the Gods")".
*7. From what I can tell, Cicero's quotation is not a full sentence in the original text, but one clause of a much larger statement. As such, it should not be treated here as a complete sentence: replace "stated," with "stated that", ""The" with ""the", and "nature."" with "nature".".
*8. Clarify what ''[[logos]]'' is&mdash;"an inherent order and rationality to the universe", put simply&mdash;so readers will understand its relevance to a discussion of ID.

-[[User:Silence|Silence]] 18:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:Silence, I'm just going to go ahead and implement this version you presented on the right-hand side of the table above. If I'm wrong, I'll get reverted and/or corrected. I will leave out the words "and rationality" because the idea of the "word" (''logos'') does not necessarily equate with rationality-- too debatable I would think. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 18:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

::The [[logos]] article itself speaks of "''Logos'' as the inherent rationality of the universe", and I think the implication of rationality is carried over in derivatives like ''[[logic]]'', but if you think this is inaccurate or disputed, feel free to remove that bit. If you're planning to implement the rest of the changes to the first and early second paragraph now, then I'd better list the next few changes here as well so they can also be looked over and discussed. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 19:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I was raised fundamentalist Christian and the word [[logos]] was primarily identified, as indicated in our article on the subject ''In [[Christianity]], the [[prologue]] of the [[Gospel of John]] calls [[Jesus]] "the Logos" (usually [[translation|translated]] as "the Word" in English bibles such as the [[King James Version of the Bible|KJV]]) and played a central role in establishing the [[doctrine]] of Jesus' [[divinity]] and the [[Trinity]]. (See [[Christology]].) The opening verse in the KJV reads: "In the beginning was the Word [''Logos''], and the Word [''Logos''] was with God, and the Word [''Logos''] was God."'' Since this whole issue is the entire world view of people who have this as a main association with ''logos'' versus others who do not, I do not recommend we get into telling people what ''logos'' means, as it means different things to different peple in a way that is significant in the context of this article. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 21:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

::::If anything, that is a reason to explain ''all'' the common meanings of ''logos'', not to explain none. If a complicated topic is relevant, then we shouldn't ignore it, we should ''explain'' it so that readers are not confused. For example, if we ''don't'' explain what Heraclitus originally meant by ''logos'' (or at least how it was taken by the ancient philosophers we go on to discuss), then readers who come from a heavily Christian background, like you, might mistakenly assume that Heraclitus was speaking of the Christian form of the concept, not the classical one. That's part of the reason it's so important to ''define'' the term in this context. The other reason is that many people will have no idea at all of what ''logos'' means in this context, and will need its significance explained. If ''logos'' is significant in its modern Christian context, not just in its ancient Greek philosophical context, to this article, then explain both meanings of the term here. Don't cause unnecessary ambiguity by shirking the topic altogether. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 22:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::That is certainly one approach. I have heard hundreds of sermons dealing with ''logos'' as Christ; especially in the context of the question "who goes to heaven when only those who accept Christ go to heaven". This Bible passage is used to show that Christ revealed himself as "logos" to ancient Greeks and those who accepted logos accepted Christ and are now in heaven. Even now, decades later, even as an atheist, I can't see "logos" without my mind partly equating it to "Christ". Indoctrination of the youth is powerful. My concern is that by the time we adequately bridge the culture barrier on the '''word''' logos we will have changed the subject. I feel it's a road best left untraveled; perhaps by leaving out the word logos altogether. Then again, reiterating the content of [[logos]] is indeed another possibility. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 13:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::I would object less to removing the word altogether than to leaving it undefined. There are valid grounds to not address that topic at all on the ID page, as its specific relevance is debatable. However, if we ''do'' include it, we should certainly define it. It is our encyclopedic duty to keep readers informed, and not leave deliberate ambiguities in the text just because it's "easier". -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 16:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

''The philosophical concept of the Logos, an inherent ordering in the universe, is typically credited to Heraclitus in the 5th century BC'' can be seen as refering to Christ's revelation of himself and its inclusion in the history of Intelligent design can be seen as God himself revealing that Intelligent design is true and atheist's unwitting use of this historical fact is just another example of God making the worldly wise foolish. Communication is more than just writing for those who already know the material, but it is also writing for those who see through cultural filters that change the meanings of what we write. There is a mystic sense of Heavenly involvement with Earthly things directing the course of human lives that pervades interpretations. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 13:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

===Changes 9-12 (3)===
These changes deal with the beginning of the second paragraph:

*9. Replace awkward and inconsistent "(thirteenth century)," from after Aquinas' ref with "in the 13th century" before "by Thomas...".
*10. Then move the comma to before the ref: <nowiki>"in his ''[[Summa Theologiae]]''</nowiki>''','''<nowiki><ref>"</nowiki>.
*11. Add "by" before "[[William Paley]]" for grammatical consistency.
*12. After the mentioning of the [[watchmaker analogy]], clarify and tidy up the wording of "which is still used in intelligent design arguments." to "an argument still used by intelligent design proponents today."

-[[User:Silence|Silence]] 19:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

::I didn't do #12. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 19:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:::OK. Do you think we should? (Sooner or later, that is.) -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 19:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
::::I don't see the need to mention proponents here. "...which is still used in intelligent design arguments" is adequate in my opinion. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 22:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::Your version is more ambiguous than mine, and I don't see any reason to be ambiguous here. Intelligent design isn't what's making the argument; ID is an idea, not an arguer (or even an argument, per se). Rather, ID ''proponents'' (or advocates, or Believers, or whatever other word you prefer) use arguments based on the watchmaker analogy. I agree that the difference is not a huge deal, but I also don't see any advantages of the original wording over the proposed wording. In context, it's grammatically simpler and more clear. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::No, it's not ambiguous nor is it anthropomorphizing ID, as the present version states "in" not "by". Re "still used ... today" -- the today is rendundant: given that we're in present tense, the only when to which still can refer is today. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::::I'm fine with removing "today" from the end of my version. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 17:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

===Changes 13-16 (3)===
These changes deal with the end of the second paragraph:

*13. Add comma after "In the early 19th century".
*14. Uncapitalize "[[Natural theology]]" to "[[natural theology]]".
*15. Replace bizarre word choice "search" with "way" or "means" in "the study of [[biology]] as a search to understand".
*16. Replace <nowiki>"[[Charles Darwin|Darwin's]]" with "[[Charles Darwin]]'s"</nowiki>; there's no reason not to state his full name here, after we've stated the full names (as they're used in their Wikipedia article, anyway) of the other people mentioned in the history, like William Paley.

-[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
*13 fine
*14 fine
*15 means
*16 fine
[[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

*OK, I'm ready to post the next 4-8 changes now. Should I do it here, or, since this section has now been scrolled up by 5 or so rather large newer sections, should I start a new section to ensure that involved users don't miss the addition? I can add an "IDCAD part 3b" or similar to the bottom of the Talk page if that would be more convenient; if not, I'll simply continue adding them right here. Preferences? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 07:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

==Defining intelligent design as science==
Some time ago a relevant link to [[naturalism (philosophy)]] was removed from this section, leaving only the [[scientific method]] which, despite my request here at the time, still makes no reference to the supernatural. I therefore propose the following modified first paragraph. Note that [[natural philosophy]] is linked to ID [http://www.origins.org/articles/thaxton_pursuitofintelligent.html here] and [http://www.mrmont.com/idcsieve/fruitful.html here], and [[natural theology]] has a link to "IS INTELLIGENT DESIGN A FORM OF NATURAL THEOLOGY? by ID proponent William Dembski".
:The [[scientific method]] refers to a body of techniques for the investigation of [[phenomenon|phenomena]] and the acquisition of new [[knowledge]] of the [[natural world]], without assuming the existence or nonexistence of the supernatural, an approach sometimes called [[naturalism (philosophy)|methodological naturalism]]. Intelligent design proponents claim that this can be equated to [[materialism|materialist]] [[metaphysical naturalism]] and have often said that their own position is not only scientific, but that it is even more scientific than evolution, and want a redefinition of science as a revived [[natural theology]] or [[natural philosophy]] to allow "non-naturalistic theories such as intelligent design"
Any comments welcome, ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 10:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC) Two more links: [http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1556666/posts here] and [http://www.accelerationwatch.com/spiritualcomputation.html here] ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 11:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:Given the lack of response I can only assume that this proposal is completely uncontroversial, and I'll implement the change shortly. ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 07:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

::by all means, implement it. however, there are a lotta slippery, tricksy words in there, coming from both sides. I have been thinking about it, before making a hasty reply. [[User:Sillygrin|Sillygrin]] 08:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I'd appreciate if there any words you can point out that could be better phrased, but as you suggest I'll put it in the article fairly soon and allow normal editing to resolve any further issues. ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 11:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

::::I don't mean that you have phrased it badly, but that the words that are available to use are slippery (by design (as it were), I am inclined to believe). I realise that there is a modern school of philosophy that uses the term "methodological naturalism", so that it almost ''has'' to be used here, but that is rather unfortunate; not many words are more ambiguous or loaded than "natural". nudists? tree huggers? field biologists? decent? I am a little familiar with Thomism, so to me, using the words "matter" or "material" and "spirit" rather than "natural" and "supernatural" feels like calling a spade a spade. they are also very much more precise terms - and neutral, to boot.

::::"methodological" also looks like a bit of a dodge to me - "we are going to have trouble proving it, so why don't we agree to formally regard it as hypothetical, but behave as if it is true?"

::::again, from a somewhat Thomist perspective, it looks much more straight-forward to just say "empirical" instead of "such and such methodological", and then one doesn't go poking around dodgy mucky theories, or load any metaphysics on to the science (Ockham's razor and all that, eh?). it also seems to be what the scientists I know do - nobody at the bench rabbits on about "methodolocial whatever". it just experiments, ''i.e.'', "empirical".

::::and now its time for bed, and I can't be bothered writing about the ID part of it, but I don't think I need to for the audience of this page, do I?

::::I agree with you that this topic is pertinant to the page, and you should put it in, and I might hack it around later. BTW, I think there are less problems in this paragraph than in [[naturalism (philosophy)|methodological naturalism]]. cheers, [[User:Sillygrin|Sillygrin]] 14:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

::::I think it reads fine. As the two terms Sillygrin seems to object to the most are wiki-linked, and are terms used commonly in science, I see no reason to not use them. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's it done. As to references, I've given some above but not added any, take your pick. I did go over the [[naturalism (philosophy)]] article and thought it now had methodological naturalism pretty much pinned down and referenced, but will have another look. For the "proponents claim that this can be equated to" I think Meyer probably comes to that conclusion in the linked article, but reading him is doing my head in: too many distractions lately. [[Talk:British Isles]] has got a bit interesting: anyone know how to do a RfC? ..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 20:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

==Origins of the concept==

the footnote seemed to be garbled, and I thought, misexplained Aquinas in ID terms (as did the main text, by implication). I put a quote of Aquinas' fifth way, and a quote from faithnet.org.uk (which was already referenced) explaining it.

in a similar vein, I think the origins of ID do not lie in peripatetic - Aristotelian or Thomistic - philosophy; ID proponents are typically evangelical protestants, and few, if any, of them are peripatetics. the origins of ID seem to lie in the 'scripture alone' idea, which tends to lead to a literalist interpretation of the Bible. thus, Genesis is interpreted as ''direct creation of each species'', and evolution then necessarily contradicts the Bible; so that either the Bible or evolution has to be false. this is the origin of ID, not a philosophical concept of design.

unfortunately, since my background is molecular biology, I do not know of any published sources saying this, so it would be original research to put it in the article (unless somebody knows of a fig leaf!!). but I do think that this subsection could reasonably (and much more accurately) be called "historical antecedents".[[User:Sillygrin|Sillygrin]] 07:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
::This section is currently under active discussion just above. I replaced the last edit of it with the longstanding version and am placing the last version by Sillygrin here for consideration: ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 11:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:*The use of this line of reasoning as applied to a supernatural designer has come to be known as the [[teleological argument]] for the existence of [[God]]. The most notable forms of this argument were expressed by [[Thomas Aquinas]] and [[William Paley]]. In his ''[[Summa Theologiae]]''<sup>[13]</sup> (thirteenth century), Aquinas gives design as the fifth of his five proofs for God's existence. '''He argues, on a rather abstract level, that there is order, or ''design'' in the universe, and that this order cannot have originated in innanimate things, but rather in an intelligent being, which "we call God."''' [[William Paley]] in his book ''Natural Theology'' (1802),<sup>[14]</sup> '''gives the rather diferent [[watchmaker analogy]], which argues that a complex thing can't have just happened by chance, but must have been ''made''.''' This is still used in intelligent design arguments '''in favour of the direct creation of each species'''. In the early 19th century such arguments led to the development of what was called [[Natural theology]], the study of [[biology]] as a search to understand the "mind of God". This movement fueled the passion for collecting fossils and other biological specimens that ultimately led to [[Charles Darwin|Darwin's]] theory of [[Origin of Species|the origin of species]]. Similar reasoning postulating a divine designer is embraced today by many believers in [[theistic evolution]], who consider modern science and the theory of [[evolution]] to be fully compatible with the concept of a supernatural designer. . . . 11:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

:Footnotes:
:[13] Thomas Aquinas, 1265-1272. ''Summa Theologiae''. "[http://www.faithnet.org.uk/AS%20Subjects/Philosophyofreligion/fiveways.htm Thomas Aquinas' 'Five Ways']" '''"The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God." '''
:In ''faithnet.org.uk'' ''':"Aquinas' Design Argument here is slightly different from the traditional view as presented, for example, by William Paley (see Paley's Watch). Aquinas agrees that there is order and purpose in the world but adds to this that inanimate objects (''e.g.'' Planets), could not have ordered themselves, lacking the intelligence to do so, and so have been ordered by a Being with intelligence who could (which would be God)." This seems to be misunderstood by ID proponents thus:''' He [[Wikisource:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District 2: context#Page 24 of 139|framed the argument as a syllogism]]: Wherever complex design exists, there must have been a designer; nature is complex; therefore nature must have had an intelligent designer.
:[14] William Paley: ''[http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/p/pd-modeng/pd-modeng-idx?type=header&id=PaleyNatur Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity]'' (London: 1809), Twelfth Edition. . . . 11:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

::I have bolded the stuff I added. [[User:Sillygrin|Sillygrin]] 09:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Beware of implying that "Natural theology" led the passion for investigating biology: [[Linnaeus]] studied nature with similar intent in the mid 18th century, and widespread interest then led to discoveries including [[James Hutton]]'s findings of deep geological time that created problems for a biological understanding in line with literal biblical interpretation before Paley coined the term and "Natural theology" was promoted by the Duke of Bridgewater. However, Paley's argument no doubt helped the respectability of such studies which led to Cambridge dons doing natural history courses in addition to the main study of the university, which was theology to equip students for ordination in the Church of England. Thus [[Charles Darwin's education]] included attending [[John Stevens Henslow|the Reverend John Stevens Henslow]]'s Friday evening soirées for naturalists as well as later having him as a theology tutor. It might be better to change the sentence to read "In the early 19th century the study of biology as a search to understand the "mind of God" was reframed in the context of such arguments as ''[[Natural theology]]''."..[[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 07:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

== Change of Topic perhaps ==
Dropped by to see what content Wikipedia had on Intelligent Design and was absolutely amazed to find an ANTI-Intelligent Design topic! I know the beginning of this discussion had all kinds of representations regarding the PC NPOV content of the present ID topic ... but quite frankly, beyond all the interesting rhetoric and $20 words, it appears that the topic has '''evolved''' into an anti-ID topic!

Perhaps this topic should be renamed "The Evololutionist's View of Intelligent Design" and another topic started for ID? I Googled ID and found an interesting mix of IDers proposing their "scientific proofs" that life, as we know it, cannot have '''evolved''' ... and evolutionists claiming that the IDers are all wet and have no idea what they are talking about. I found it very amusing that both sides seem to be perfectly willing to engage in the same "fingers in the ears, I can't hear you" attitude as the other. Almost as amusing as people who believe in that which they cannot see vs. people who think they came from monkeys. But I digress.

Anyhow, back to my earlier suggestion of renaming the topic, it seems to me that it would be more eruditious to allow each camp to present their '''''data''''' separately so that we might more readily compare notes, so to speak. As a side benefit, since each would have their own "soapbox" as it were (and I realize that appears to contradict Wiki principles so bear with me) they could expend their time and literary efforts describing and constructing their own ''sciences'' and ''philosophies'' rather than attacking the other(s). Or perhaps these two topics (ID and Evolution) are not sufficiently developed enough for Wikipedia just yet and both should be banned topically until they can be proven and scientifically justified (which neither really is if one reads up on the details); though that would leave some gaping holes in 11 grade biology curriculum wouldn't it! :-) Just my two cents.
--[[User:JimScott|JimScott]] 14:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
:::Shame on us I suppose, but this particular article has been researched and hashed over with the finest-toothed combs you'll ever see anywhere. If anything it's bending over backwards to be deferential to a philosophical or theological concept attempting to pose as science. Shame on them too, incidentally. ... [[User:Kenosis|Kenosis]] 15:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
:''"Almost as amusing as people who believe in that which they cannot see vs. people who think they came from monkeys."'' - Two errors here, the first minor, the second major. First, you mean "that which they cannot ''perceive'' or ''detect''", not "see". If you don't believe in anything you can't see, then you must not believe in music, ultraviolet radiation, etc. Second, noone believes that humans come from monkeys; this is a strawman. Humans and monkeys share a ''[[common descent|common ancestor]]'', yes, but so do humans and all other species of life. Humans are vastly more closely related to [[chimpanzee]]s, [[gorilla]]s and other great apes than to monkeys, who are not even members of the same family ([[Hominidae]], the great apes) or superfamily (Hominoidea, the [[ape]]s) as humans.
:As for your suggestion that we make two separate sections, one for the ID advocates and one for the critics of ID, I'm afraid that this would be a violation of Wikipedia's [[WP:NPOV|Neutral Point of View]] policy, which requires us to present noteworthy points of view and present noteworthy criticisms of those points of view, each in proportions relative to their respective commonality or mainstream acceptance. Specfically, what you are proposing would be a [[Wikipedia:Content forking|POV Fork]], a very bad idea that inevitably leads to horrible bias on ''both'' sides. This is not how Wikipedia articles are written; relevant arguments and relevant counter-arguments are presented side-by-side, not segregated or hidden away from one another.
:Your proposal that we "ban" all information on ID and evolution from the encyclopedia is also quite absurd, especially since you haven't lodged any specific criticisms of any real ''problems'' with Wikipedia's coverage of these articles. Contrary to your belief that Wikipedia's coverage of these topics is profoundly lacking, our [[evolution]] article is currently one of Wikipedia's Featured Articles, an example of some of its best work (though I will agree that there are many things still to be improved in that article, and in this one). Also, I don't understand what you mean by "not sufficiently developed enough for Wikipedia just yet"; ID has been around for almost 20 years, modern evolutionary biology has been around for between 70 and 150 years (depending on where you set the benchmark), and evolution itself has been around for billions of years. :)
:''"until they can be proven and scientifically justified (which neither really is if one reads up on the details)"'' - This is incorrect. ID has not been proven and scientifically justified, true. However, [[evolution]] has certainly been proven to occur, and [[modern evolutionary synthesis|modern evolutionary theory]] has certainly been "scientifically justified". Could you explain why you feel that this is not the case, and what, exactly, your requirements are for scientific facts and theories to be "proven" or "justified"..? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

:Your concern is noted. The tone of the article is shaped by policy. Since the scientific community says ID is pseudoscience, [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience|NPOV: Pseudoscience]] tells us "''The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.''" And [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Giving_.22equal_validity.22|NPOV: Giving "equal validity"]] says "''Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory...''" ID proponents claim ID is valid science on par with evolutionary theory, a claim the scientific community rejects. That makes ID the minority view. [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight|NPOV: Undue weight]] says "''Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views...''" Finally, [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Making_necessary_assumptions|NPOV: Making necessary assumptions]] on "What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page?" tells us "''No, surely not. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology, but also in philosophy, history, physics, etc.''" This article is well within those guidelines. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 15:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
::Excellent responses. We should refer any new editor to this section. -- [[User talk:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 15:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes...Kenosis, Silence and FM very well done! Many kudos to each of you! [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

==What is artificiality?==

In "Intelligence as an observable quality" we quote SETI researchers as distinguishing between complexity and artificiality. While I understand that complexity is not the same as artificiality, I can't help but feel uncomfortable with the term "artificiality". How someone determines "artificiality" seems to me to be controversial. It also is a poor response made by ScienceApologists in, for example, C/E debates. IDists currently don't use the term "artificiality" but they do use the term "supernatural" which seems to me to be somewhat related. Is it only a matter of time before "Of Pandas..." replaces all its "ID" wording with "artificial design" wording?

I am of the impression that "artificiality" refers to a phenomena that have only been observed to occur as the result of the "intervention" (whatever that means) of human engineering (in reference to the [[Drake Equation]], for example) whereas "supernatural" refers to an assumption that certain phenomena can only be explained if a [[deus ex machina]] rearranged the universe to its fancy. This distinction, however, seems very tenuous to me. I am a SETI-skeptic, though, so it might just be that my baloney detector is more sensitive than others. In any case, I linked to "artifial" which is a terrible disambig article but seems to capture the gist of what I think is the way the distinction is supposed to be made by SETI researchers, but some discussion may be in order.

--[[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] 17:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

:SA, artificiality is indeed a relic of design, thus that would be how we would determine if a complex-seeming series of bips, beeps, and boops from space was a "message" or just noise: if it was complex but unchanging, no message (just noise); if complex but varying in ways that ''we understand and think likely to be representative of design'' then it's artificial (and a message). Of course, this presupposes that ET is sufficiently like us to develop along a similar technological path. I digress.
:As for supernatural, yeah, I suppose that would be the artifice of whatever deity or other supernatural (paranormal, too?) being to which they (IDists) were referring.
:I'm not one hundred percent sure where you're going with intervention -- I presume you mean that we'd not've noticed these "artificialities" absent specific technology? [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 17:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

::As I understand it, ''artificial'' means "made by humans". It's derived from a Latin word meaning "craftsmanship", and thus requires that the thing in question be deliberately arranged. I have never seen ''artificial'' used in reference to the creations of a deity or supernatural agent; although it meets the basic requirement of deliberate design, it deliberately sidesteps the "human" requirement in the most common definition. Furthermore, the word ''artificial'' is commonly used as an antonym for ''natural'': our anthropocentric outlook subdivides the world into things created by humans, and things not created by humans. Hence the distinction between, for example, [[artificial selection]] and [[natural selection]]. There is thus a fundamental problem in calling ''nature itself'' "artificial", even if you believe that nature was deliberately designed by an intelligence: you are essentially defining the word ''natural'' out of existence. For this reason, most creationists wouldn't call the universe or nature or life "artificial" even if they believe that a supernatural intelligence created it; they will simply say that it has a supernatural origin, or that it is "designed", not "artificial" ''per se''. Maybe I just haven't read enough ID pamphlets to see them use the term, though; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As for the word ''supernatural'' itself, it means exactly what it sounds like: "outside of the natural world". Whether that means that the "supernatural" is physically impossible (cf. [[naturalism (philosophy)]]) depends on how broadly you define "natural world". -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 18:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

:Artificial in the sense of SETI means created by an intelligent life form -- so, an artificial signal, like one from a TV program, will be both complex and clearly artificial. We use it most often to refer to things created by humans, but there is no inherency in the word requiring a restriction to only anthropocentric usage.
:I've never seen and IDist or other creationist use the term artificial (nor do I ever expect to), but in reality, if something is created it is effect artificial as it was "made with skill" (''ars''+''facere''), whether the creator is supenatural or not. Hence, for creationists, all that is natural is artificial. [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 18:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

::I'd point out that since we don't have a definition of "intelligent" or "life form" that science can agree on, then we naturally fall back on our anthropocentric assumptions about what this entails. It could be that the [[dark matter]] is all composed of extremely intelligent life forms that we just cannot communicate with because we're so stuck in our ways, for example. Trying to measure an artificial signal relies on the data points provided by the only means we have for determining what "artificial" is: human intervention.

::What's more something that is artificial does not need to be complex. Seth makes that point very adamantly in his critique of Dembski. Repeating a string of prime numbers over and over again is very simple, but it is still considered "artificial" since no one has observed prime number generators that were not human.

::--[[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] 18:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

::::But what about the [[dark energy]]? ;) Seriously, we're stuck with an anthropocentric thought process, no matter how much 20th and 21s century philosophers claim to have cleansed the doors of perception and saved us from the shackles of of our humanity.
::::Somehow I bristle at the use of "human intervention"...how about "human observation" instead, as we are not truly intervening with the data itself but rather observing it? (we do intervene with the observations).
::::I wonder how we'd even recognise a string of prime numbers generated elsewhere. What if the prime numbers were presented in a base seven system? Would we understand it or see it as random noise? As humans, we are going to focus on base 2, 8, 10 or 16 systems and are unlikely to recognise anything that is at the very least, a multiple of one of those numbers, much less something based on an "odd" number.[[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 23:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::<nowiki>*</nowiki> *** ***** ******* *********** * *** ***** ******* *********** * *** ***** ******* *********** * *** ***** ******* *********** * *** ***** ******* *********** * *** ***** ******* *********** * *** ***** ******* *********** * *** ***** ******* *********** * *** ***** ******* *********** [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 14:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Notice I said "a base seven system". I didn't mean to create a repeating list the first few odd primes (BTW:, one isn't normally considered a prime, and two is missing). [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 16:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Good points all. The real problem is, I think, with the "artificial/natural" distinction which may be just as much a false a dichotomy as the "supernatural/natural" distinction. Presumably the "human" is a part of "nature", so what's to say that it isn't "natural" for there to be a Great Wall of China or head sculptures on Easter Island? Similarly, according to the scientific method, whenever one observes something to happen, then presumably that phenomenon is "natural".

:::I'm comfortable right now with the way we report the distinction even though it is arbitrary because I'm reminded of a dispute that we had a year ago trying to describe "[[methodological naturalism]]" vs. "[[ontological naturalism]]". Certain editors pointed out (correctly) that science does not distinguish between the supernatural and the natural because it assumes that everything observed is the result of natural phenomena even though one may chose an ontology which worships some part of that nature and would therefore allow for a ontological supernaturalism associated with a certain set of causes. So, methodologically, nature would be the "[[ground of being]]", to borrow a phrase from some of my least favorite mystics, and even if deus ex machina showed up, said "deity" would necessarily be "natural". While this argument is convincing, ultimately the reason that these advocates failed in their arguments to define the terms of the distinction was because culturally people are more comfortable distinguishing between material and spiritual causes in terms of the institutions that support them (religious, political, scientific, industrial, etc.). So the supernatural/natural distinction remains on Wikipedia in both method and ontology since we report what the opinions, beliefs, and research of the outside world is and don't allow for novel interpretations no matter how righteously correct they are. I'm afraid natural/artificial may be a distinction that needs to remain for the same reason.

:::--[[User:ScienceApologist|ScienceApologist]] 18:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

::::I will agree with you fully that the "artificial/natural" and "supernatural/natural" dichotomies are completely false ones, with no objective validity. I have long felt it strange and arbitrary that we consider even the simplest of human creations "unnatural", while beaver dams, birds' nests, ant hills, etc. are 100% "natural". This is why I qualified the distinction as "anthropocentric" in my above explanation, which was a descriptivist explanation of the common usage of ''artificial'' (which, apparently, is not quite the one SETI is using; thanks for clarifying, Jim), not a prescriptivist endorsement of it. If we are to use ''natural world'' in a meaningful and consistent way, then, as you correctly point out, any divine or mystical or transcendent being we encounter in the future will, necessarily, be natural, not supernatural. The natural world is, by its very definition, everything that exists; to be supernatural is like being "outside existence". (For a similar reason, it has been argued that "[[miracle]]s" are inherently impossible: even seemingly miraculous events cannot violate the laws of nature, merely operate under ones which we are unaware of.) Likewise, if we are to use ''artificial'' in a less arbitrarily anthropic way, we must concede that everything artificial is also natural; human creations are a part of nature as much as beehives are, regardless of their complexity. So, we end up picking apart the false natural/supernatural dichotomy and merging it all under a "natural" umbrella referring to everything that exists; and using the other, less formal sense of "nature" (where we mean the birds and bees and flowers untainted by human civilization, not "existence"), we likewise end up deconstructing the natural/artificial dichotomy and including all artificial constructs under the other "natural" umbrella. But I get the feeling that we're getting a bit off-topic here. <_< -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 20:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Off-topic, yes, but, let's be honest...it's been one of the best Wiki discussions most of us have ever had. This would be great continued as a real conversation over a few beers (or whatever drink floats your boat). Hmmm, ''"untainted by human civilization"''...is there anything on this planet untainted by human civilization? ;) [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 23:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

==Experiments which prove evolution is true==

:Intelligent design is presented as an alternative to [[natural science|natural]] explanations for [[evolution]]. This stands in opposition to conventional <u>[[biology|biological]] science, which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world</u> through observed physical processes such as [[mutation]] and [[natural selection]].

What experiments has biological science done to prove that the [[Theory of Evolution]] is true? (I know about evolution '''within species''', called "[[microevolution]]" by some.) I mean what experiments have shown that new species have come into being by [[evolution]]?

I'm not arguing that evolution is false. I'm trying to improve the Intelligent Design article.

Based on my extensive reading in wiki and elsewhere, it looks look nearly everything is "after the fact" '''explanation''' - both by evolution supporters and design theorists. Where can I find out about '''experimentation''' that explains how mutation and natural selection have produced new species? Is there a [[List of species produced by evolution]] in modern times? --[[User:Wing Nut|Wing Nut]] 21:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:The Talk Origins web site has a page describing observed instances of speciation, which some might call macroevolution. {{unsigned|LenW}}

:a) Nothing about "after the fact" which makes evolution less experimental. An experiment is something which is done to test an hypothesis. Lots of hypotheses about evolution are tested all the time (there are several journals, publishing dozens of articles per month per issue which publish experiments looking at evolution; there are as many dedicated to [[systematics]], which is becoming an ever more experimental field which tests hypotheses about how species originated).
:b) See [[triticale]] for a new species which was produced experimentally (in the 19th century!).
:c) [[Richard Lenski]] has a [[Experimental_evolution#Lenski.27s_long-term_evolution_experiment_with_E._coli|long-term_evolution_experiment_with_E._coli]] which has gone on for more than 20,000 generations. Since they have the ancestors and the descendents, they have been able to document the evolution of novel traits in the species. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] 21:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:*[http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ 29+ Evidences for macroevolution: The scientific case for common descent]
:*Shapiro M. D., M. E. Marks, C. L. Peichel, B. K. Blackman, K. S. Nereng, B. Jónsson, D. Schluter and D. M. Kingsley, 2004. Genetic and developmental basis of evolutionary pelvic reduction in threespine sticklebacks. Nature 428: 717-723. See also: Shubin, N. H. and R. D. Dahn, 2004. Evolutionary biology: Lost and found. Nature 428: 703.
:*Lee, P. N., P. Callaerts, H. G. de Couet and M. Q. Martindale, 2003. Cephalopod Hox genes and the origin of morphological novelties. Nature 424: 1061-1065
:*"extensive reading in wiki and elsewhere" is no substitute for an actual education in science. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 21:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:I agree that it is limiting to say that science is based solely on experimentation. It would be more accurate to say that science relies on experimentation ''and observation'' (though experiments are really a type of observation, just in controlled settings): the fact that the earth revolves around the sun is not based on "experiments", it's based on simple observations. Likewise, the fossil record, genetic data, morphological similarities, etc. are not experimental evidence ''per se'', but generally observational evidence (though we can certainly perform various experiments ''on'' many of those things), and it is on these that the fact that evolution occurs is based. It's not like biologists need to be able to create dinosaurs in test tubes to show that dinosaurs existed; observational evidence, in the form of fossils, is more than sufficient.
:Anyway, with that out of the way, I'll answer your question about [[speciation]] (the generation of new species). Although speciation is a relatively rare and gradual event, generally taking thousands of years to occur, it has indeed been observed a number of times. You can read up on plenty of [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html Observed Instances of Speciation] at the page I just linked to. There are even examples of speciations occurring under controlled, experimental situations, though these are indeed few and far between because of the rarity of new species arising. In around 1963, renowned biologist [[Theodosius Dobzhansky]] successfully bred a new species of Venezuelan fruit fly (i.e., one that was unable to reproduce with other strains of Venezuelan fruit flies, the most common definition of a "[[species]]") over many generations of cumulative differentiation in an isolated strain. Does that answer your question? -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 21:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[[HeLa]] is interesting in this regard. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 21:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:You might be interested, Wingnut, to know that "true" as understood by scientists essentially means "hasn't been proved wrong yet". Pretty much everything ever scientifically believed as "true" at a particular point in the past has been at least partially disproved at one time or another. See [[falsifiability]]. What's important is that natural selection, which has been observed as the article claims, is only "unproven" because of the irrelevant detail that we simply haven't been studying it for millions of years yet. It's not our fault that our species is too short-lived to do a really good long term study, and shouldn't be counted against the theory in principle. And yes, there have been observations of examples of speciation; the [[Kaibab Squirrel]] is the first example that comes to mind, since I got a chance to see some when I visited the [[Grand Canyon]]. Cheers, [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 22:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
::P.S. note that the Kaibab Squirrel is only a subspecies of the Abert's Squirrel, but it clearly demonstrates an instance of speciation that is currently in progress. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 22:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Well, if you want to be technical about it, nothing in science is ever genuinely "proved" or "disproved" with any certainty. Science is fundamentally probabilistic, not proof-based: "the Earth revolves around the Sun" is considered a fact because it is extremely likely to be true based on empirical observation, not because it has been "proven" with the certainty of, say, a [[mathematical proof]]. Evolution is considered a fact for the same reason: because of thoroughly convincing consistent evidence that indicates that this is the case. The most reliable scientific facts and theories are not the ones that have been "proven", but rather the ones that have been thoroughly tested and grounded in solid evidence to the extent that they are exceedingly ''likely'', based on the current information available to us, to be true. So, although "prove" and "disprove" are commonly used in colloquial contexts to refer to scientific facts, theories, hypotheses, etc., in a formal context it is preferable to use more accurate words like "verify" and "falsify", to avoid potential ambiguity with the meanings of ''proof'' which connote certainty, something science (and empiricism in general) lays no claim to. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 23:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
::::I don't know why I ever open my mouth, when you can explain things so much better. ;) Well said. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 23:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
:::::good call. [[User:Sillygrin|Sillygrin]] 05:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

==IDCAD part 3b==
Since [[#IDCAD, part 3: Origins of the concept]] has been scrolled up the page a bit by the last 5 sections of discussion, and thus may be a bit too out-of-the-way for users to easily respond to new additions there, I'm continuing the list of copyedit changes here (though, as ever, more replies are still welcome to the previously-listed changes).

===Changes 17-20 (3)===
These changes deal with the end of the second paragraph and beginning of the third, including a sentence moved from the former to the latter for the sake of topical relevance, coherency, and fluidity:

*17. Remove "theory of [[Origin of Species|the origin of species]]". First, this is simply inaccurate; ''[[The Origin of Species]]'' is a book, not a theory. Second, it is misleading: going into so much detail on what Darwin did will prompt uninformed readers to think that Darwin's book is being mentioned for the same reason Haley's and Cicero's and Aquinas's and so on were: because it was a significant precursor to ID. In reality, exactly the opposite is the case. Third, it is unnecessary and extraneous: there is no special relevance to this book in the context of intelligent design. It is only significant insomuch as ''everything'' in the [[history of evolutionary thought]] is significant to an anti-evolutionary movement, and that's not what the scope of this section of the article is. And its mentioning detracts from the significance of mentioning Charles Darwin here, and dilutes the quality of the writing; simply replacing it with "own research" or similar is more than sufficient.
*18. Move the last sentence of this paragraph, "Similar reasoning...", to the next paragraph, and have it immediately follow the first sentence there. Ending the previous paragraph on Darwin is a good idea, and the last sentence is properly, content-wise, more similar to the third paragraph (which discusses modern creationist ideas) than to the second (which lists various significant people in the history of pre-ID ideas from the Middle Ages to the 19th century) by an order of magnitude. The next three or four edits will deal with various changes to this sentence in order to fit it effectively and smoothly into the new paragraph. Although all of these changes will be dealt with individually, if you want to compare the final version to the original version, see this:

{|
|bgcolor="#FFEFEF"| Original version (end of 2nd para, start of 3rd)
|bgcolor="#EFEFFF"| New version (end of 2nd para, start of 3rd)
|-
|bgcolor="#FFEFEF"| This movement fueled the passion for collecting fossils and other biological specimens that ultimately led to [[Charles Darwin|Darwin's]] theory of [[Origin of Species|the origin of species]]. Similar reasoning postulating a divine designer is embraced today by many believers in [[theistic evolution]], who consider modern science and the theory of [[evolution]] to be fully compatible with the concept of a supernatural designer.

Intelligent design in the late 20th century can be seen as a modern reframing of natural theology seeking to change the basis of science and undermine evolution theory.
|bgcolor="#EFEFFF"| This movement fueled the passion for collecting fossils and other biological specimens that ultimately led to [[Charles Darwin]]'s own research.

Intelligent design can be seen as a modern reframing of natural theology. However, while some creationists, such as many believers in [[theistic evolution]], consider modern science and the theory of evolution to be largely or fully compatible with the concept of a supernatural designer, intelligent design seeks to change the basis of science and undermine evolutionary theory.
|}


:''We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related, the eternal ONE. And this deep power in which we exist and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are shining parts, is the soul.'' —[[Ralph Waldo Emerson]]
*19. At the start of the moved sentence, replace "Similar reasoning postulating a divine designer is embraced today by" with "However, while some creationists, such as". The former was misleading (as it implied that Darwin was a believer in or founder of [[theistic evolution]]) and not really accurate even when properly understood. In context, the new beginning makes the sentence flow very well with the overall paragraph. Also, remove "who" before "consider modern science".
*20. Change "to be fully compatible" to "to be largely or fully compatible"; not all believers in theistic evolution believe that evolutionary theory is ''fully'' compatible with theism; indeed, many reject one or more aspects of evolutionary biology in order to better accomodate their supernatural belief.


==Biography==
-[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
:Theistic evolution adherents are not creationists in the narrow sense being used here. That's evolutionary creationism. The difference is that the fomer holds [[historical-critical method]] (in conservative catholicism, for example), or, alternatively, sees Genesis as a metaphor (mostly in liberal theology), while the latter adheres to literalism and tries to read the theory of evolution literally from the bible. The evolutionary creationism is creationism because they still hold the view that natural selection is incapable of producing macroevolution, so that macroevolution needs direct divine intervention. (It differs from progressive creationism in that it holds comment descent instead of the creation of separate kinds on their appearance in the fossil record) --[[User:Rtc|Rtc]] 15:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
:I also object to characterizing theistic evolutionists as creationists. While TEs share a belief in a deity with theists, they side with evolutionists in regards to the science of evolution. [[User:Jason Potter|JPotter]] 20:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
::[http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html Talk.Origins] defines theistic evolution: "''Theistic Evolution says that God creates through evolution. Theistic Evolutionists vary in beliefs about how much God intervenes in the process. It accepts most or all of modern science, but it invokes God for some things outside the realm of science, such as the creation of the human soul. This position is promoted by the Pope and taught at mainline Protestant seminaries.'' I think the issue here is that theistic evolution has many levels. Theistic evolution falls into creationism if it claims that God stepped in at opportune moments and worked outside the laws of nature. It should not be called creationism if God is equated with natural laws. Any mention of God stepping outside of those natural laws will invoke creationism.


My connection to [[Meher Baba]] and eastern and western philosophy is unique. My parents were both artists and highly educated people. My father [[Lynfield Ott]] was partially blind. Having a parent who is struggling to paint to make a living for his family as he loses his eyesight will make you think a lot about perception. It was on our family's mind all the time. When I was small my parents met Meher Baba in India, leaving us kids at home in Woodstock with a baby sitter. This turned our world upside down. I began my career in motion picture animation, but wound up in philosophy -- philosophy of perception. All this took me in a big circle back to my roots -- to art and spirituality. I have a daughter, Megan, who lives with me full time. My interests have begun to include a new focus on Hinduism even though Meher Baba was a Zoroastrian and a syncretic universalist. I am especially interested in [[Advaita Vedanta]]. I am also interested in Sufism, Gnosticism, Christian Mysticism, Perceptual Psychology, and of course Meher Baba. A life of exposure to many things has left me with a very strong sense that he was a pristine human being, a true spiritual teacher, and almost undoubtedly all he said that he was. Anyone is free to disagree.
::Theistic evolution is a form of creationism by necessity. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 21:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


===Getting my book for free===
:::The source is bad, since they falsely claim "Evolutionary Creationism differs from Theistic Evolution only in its theology, not in its science". That's wrong. The former accepts only common descent while the latter also accepts natural selection as the origin of macroevolution and species. Please rely on more reputable sources, such as [http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/creationism/], which does not include Theistic Evolution in the narrow creationism, but only in the broad sense. Narrow creationism means god intervened into naural laws, while the soul thing means god intervened only on a metaphysical level. The soul you are refering to is a metaphysical construction, assumed to be independent of the natural world. --[[User:Rtc|Rtc]] 21:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


The article above was originally titled "A Model of Perception" and was intended as an addendum to my rather brief book "The Evolution of Perception," though it was written after the book's publication in 2004. My book offers rigorous arguments for this view and does not mention God, Meher Baba, or even mysticism. It is a difficult read, but for the determined it can be a valuable addition to any physics or philosophy library. Besides being available in softcover all over the internet. a PDF digital version is available free by email to any registered Wikipedia member who requests it. To request a free PDF copy of my book simply go to my main page at [[User:Cott12]] and click the email link at the top of the page and request it.
::::I suggest you take that up with Talk.Origins then; this isn't the place. Theistic evolution remains a form of creationism regardless of whether you prefer a broad or narrow interpretation of creationism and you're entitled to your opinion as to which makes more sense for you. But for our purposes here Talk.Origins is a very reputable source and theistic evolution is a form of creationism by any meaningful defintion. Our task here is not to determine or argue for truth, but to summarize verifiable facts. How anyone can keep a straight face when claiming evolution guided by God is not a way life was created is beyond me... [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 22:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


* [[User:Cott12/sig|More Images]] (an almost purely visual recapitulation of the idea)
===Changes 21-24 (3)===
* [[User:Cott12]] (email link at top of page)
These changes deal with the beginning of the third paragraph:
*[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0595320740 Soft Cover (100 pages)]


*21. Replace the period after "supernatural designer" with a comma, and begin what was originally the second sentence of the paragraph afterwards, with "seeking" replaced by "intelligent design seeks".
*22. Replace "evolution theory" with "evolutionary theory", to be more consistent with the terminology used elsewhere.
*23. At the start of this paragraph, remove the "in the late 20th century" qualifier from "Intelligent design in the late 20th century can be seen"; first, as of 2006, this applies to intelligent design both in the late 20th and early 21st century. Second, this qualifier has the unfortunate consequence of implying that the intelligent design movement is ''older'' than "the late 20th century", which is not true.
*24. In "As evolutionary theory has expanded to explain more phenomena,", replace "evolutionary theory" with "[[evolutionary biology]]". The theory has not "expanded" ''per se'', it's been updated and revised. The field of evolutionary biology, on the other hand, can be argued to have "expanded" to deal with more and more types of phenomena.


-[[User:Silence|Silence]] 15:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


== Introduction ==


Remember, "Love thy neighbor as thy self." It's what Jesus would do.
The Introduction reads:
:''A [[United States federal courts|United States federal court]] recently ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the [[Establishment Clause of the First Amendment|Establishment Clause]] of the [[First Amendment to the United States Constitution|First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution]].''


[[Image:God's love.gif|400px]]
Does that refer to ''[[Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District]]'' as laid out in the rest of the paragraph? If no, can you please be more specific? If yes, can you please make it clear from the beginning that both sentences refer to a single case? --[[User:Rtc|Rtc]] 15:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:15, 16 July 2006

A few important notes:

Below is a visual metaphorical model of my idea of a process of perception as described in my book, The Evolution of Perception & the Cosmology of Substance. This model (and the theory in my book) explains what is known in western philosophy as "the primary/secondary quality distinction." It also gives an account for experience that is missing from contemporary western models of reality based on the corpuscular theory of reality that is holding sway in western philosophy at the moment. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it entails a view that we are all fundamentally of one cloth metaphysically, a view which, in my opinion, has powerful ethical implications.

It may help to understand that my background is in cinema and philosophy. I have been a projectionist, a camera assistant, have a degree from U.S.C. film school and a masters in philosophy. Thus it should be little surprise that I adopt a cinematic metaphor to explain a philosophical theory of perception. See my images page for a concise visual recapitulation of the idea.


A Western Model of Advaita Vedanta

seeing through, and seeing as


Think of perception as light. Call it "the light of consciousness." This light is all that is.

If we want to speak of God (some have a problem with this) we would say that God is this light—the light of consciousness. This light doesn't have consciousness. It is consciousness. It doesn't have imagination. It is imagination.

What but imagination can imagine? What but consciousness can be conscious? What but perception can perceive? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

Now use this analogy. God imagines ways of seeing, states of consciousness. Liken these 'ways of seeing' to lenses. God imagines lenses, and through these imagined lenses sees. But what does he see? What is the object of his perception? Light. Thus God is both projector and camera—subject and object. He sees nothing but himself through his imagined lenses. He is both what he sees (world) and what he does not see (the witness). He is both what he takes himself to be (body) and beyond what he takes himself to be. There is nothing that God (light of consciousness) is not.

When God looks through his lens (camera) he sees only the light that he projects. And even the lenses through which the world is formed and through which God is informed are nothing but figments of his imagination, thus not divided from himself.

What really exists in the absolute and eternal sense is the light. The percept (the image that God projects and sees) is illusion—an ephemeral figment of God's imagination. Yet this illusion is not separate from God, nor independent of him. Just as a person's dream is not really separate from the dreamer nor independent of the dreamer. There is nothing but the light. Thus illusion and reality both are of God. God is too infinite to be displaced by that which he creates out of himself, whether real or unreal.


He who knows everything displaces nothing.Meher Baba


Now forget the camera for a second and consider only the projector. For we are going to discuss the creation of things perceived.

The projector has lenses. They are nothing but light (God's imagination) but through these lenses the world forms in the light (as appearances). God sees the light he projects from himself. How is this?

To understand this we must understand the lenses and what they form in the the world of appearances.

The very first lens that forms in God's imagination is time. And after it comes space. And through space and time we have the potential for the distinctions of before-and-after, backward-and-forward. But the source of the light (the spectator, i.e. God) is really located back with the projector where the light source is. The source or spectator is not really "in" time or space. Thus if we were to ask questions such as, "Which direction is the light moving?" or "Is the light moving from the projector or toward it?" we would be asking confused questions—questions that only make sense when looking through the lenses of time and space. For time and space (lenses in the imagination of God) do not really ever materialize except in appearance. So the light (spectator, i.e. God) never really 'enters' into the world of space and time, for they are merely imagined... just as the dreamer never really 'enters' his dream. But from the point of view of the mind of God that is immersed in his illusion (in the form of man or a woman) this is a very reasonable question to ask. Thus for our minds we must postulate and imagine God as both projector and camera, for we must imagine the light as moving in both directions.

In reality the whole matter of direction is a phantom. But we are ensconced in the dimensions that arise in the percept that result from these lenses. We cannot conceive any other way. So we must say the direction is both, yet in reality it is beyond both, for God in reality precedes the distinction.

That is a hard idea to get your mind around. That is a limitation of the mind born of its lenses and not the concept itself. The concept reflects truth. The cloud in our understanding is our own cloud.

Now we must use this analogy of the projector to see how the world forms, and especially to explain what is called in philosophy the distinction between the objective world (same for everyone, such as the mathematical formula of gravity) and the subjective world (affected slightly by the individual's interpretation and thus different for everyone, such as sense experience). This distinction is called in western philosophy the 'primary-secondary quality distinction.'

We account for this difference with the order of the lenses. When we understand the sequence of the lenses, we see why we find this objective/subjective quality distinction.

 


The secret lies in the order of the lenses. Each lens forms the raw material for the next distinction. For example natural laws are merely variations on pure relations of time and space, and the body of a man (or animal) is merely variations of pure relations of natural laws.

Study this picture. In it lies the key that unlocks the mystery of why the facts of reality were so hard to discover. Seeing the world through the distinction of time we use to say that there is time. And we cannot conceive of a world without it. This is because time is part of the fabric of our conception. We cannot discover the cause of our percept discursively then. It must be realized through deep introspection and imagination, postulated, and considered. This explains why it has been slow in coming and why western philosophy has moved in endless circles, chasing its own tail. Time, space, and natural laws, we thought, must be independent of perception since they are the same for every observer. They are independent of the individual person's perception, but not independent of perception itself—for they precede the rise of the sense of individuality. We have been mistakenly reading the effect of our experience into its cause. This error in thinking is called 'the historical fallacy' (as described by philosopher John Dewey).

Historical Fallacy: “A set of considerations which hold good only because a completed process is read into the content of the process which conditions this completed result." (John Dewey in The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology, 1896)

Now look at the picture below. It shows where in the sequence of the process of perception the primary and secondary qualities (and supervening worlds) emerge in the image.

Note that the Real Witness of all of the percept (both the objective world and every individual's subjective impression) is all the while at the point of the projector. The Real Witness (God) never really enters into his percept, but merely evolves the impression that He does. Thus in this view we are all One. In India this is called advaita vedanta, or literally unqualified "non-dualism," and in Sufism it is called wahdat-ul-shuhud (unity of witness) and wahdat-ul-wujood (unity of being).

File:Model arrows.gif

I have drawn light lines (depicted in gold in the chart immediately above) to show that the same light is passing through every lens, even each human body. And thus the experience of distinction of 'selves' is actually an illusion. This psychological impression of a divided self is called the "jiva" in advaita vedanta.

In this view there is only perception, an evolution of perception, in the imagination of God. God (light of consciousness) is the only perceiver and all that God ever perceives is himself (light). But in reality the percept that God perceives is his own invented illusion which he takes himself to be part of as man. When God (as man) realizes his real nature, he does not see light so much as becomes light and conscious of his true identity as light. This is called in mysticism, "God Realization," and in advaita vedanta "mukti."

What's worth recognizing from this illustration is the notion that each person is seeing the same world (built in the light that emits from the projector but is formed by the earlier lenses), but sees it slightly different (according to their own individual psychology and biology). Realize too that their psychology and biology that they are using as a medium of their perception is itself an outcome of the lenses (such as natural laws) that precede them in the process that is forming the image world.

Each person sees a slightly different variation of the same world. The world thus, in a sense, is filtered to you through your eyes and brain. But the one receiving the impressions is God himself actually. The one who searches is God himself. The one who becomes confused is God himself. The one who realizes his true nature is God himself. This is called nondualism, the view that there is no true separation in time because time never really existed at all. Thus division (world) is false, and unity (light) is real. But both are divine, both false and real, as both originate in God and remain in God.

From the point of view of one who has not gone beyond Maya, it seems that there are as many individuals as there are minds and bodies. In Truth there is one Universal Being behind the minds of seemingly different individuals, who through them has the experiences of duality. — Meher Baba

It is truer to say that the world is in you than that you are in the world. — Meher Baba

What is unique about this idea is that it does not fall into the notion of what I call "mind idealism" where thought creates the world. Rather it is both perceptual idealism and perceptual realism and obliterates the distinction, for the world that people (and animals) see is the real world and not a copy of some metaphysical archetype. Plato's forms become lenses or ways of seeing rather than things. The image world is the only world to see, thus not a representation of an ideal secondary world. Thus it is the first system that escapes representationalism. The system also is compatible both with evolution and belief in an all-creating, all-knowing, all-seeing God, yet does not collapse into the pitfalls of an external God. It is even compatible with existentialism, and one could do away with the idea of God if they had too many negative emotions tied up with the word "God." So it is a very elastic and adaptive basic concept. It represents a general paradigm shift, a turning inside out of our conceptions, but not a new dogma.

Another note of interest is that this model obliterates the need for a model of an atom. The natural laws (including quantum ones) are reassigned as perceptual schemata (lenses) or regular ways of seeing, rather than being viewed as we do as the properties of a theoretical entity.

Arguments for this view can be found in my book, "The Evolution of Perception."

If we were to sum up this view it is that consciousness (reality) creates matter (appearance). This isn't very original. What is original is the view of the order of lenses and the notion of replacing metaphysical entities with a process.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. —Luke 17:21

When mind soars in pursuit of the things conceived in space, it pursues emptiness; but when man dives deep within himself, he experiences the fullness of existence. — Meher Baba

File:Pd 4.jpg


Explanation of the chart above: In the evolution of perception, represented as progressing from left to right in the above chart, each perceptual schema (represented as pink ovals or lenses) gives rise to the raw material for the next perceptual schema. As they emerge in God's imagination, the impression they produce supervenes with the previous impression to form the world of appearances. The world of appearance is what we refer to as the phenomenal world. The world is illusion in every sense of the word, a complete chimera, a delusion. Yet what arises out of this process is God's own awareness of his existence. God himself is cause and world (appearance) is effect. Only the cause (God) ever truly exists. God, the Witness, (who is invisible) exists. The world (that appears) is illusion.


One of the problems that faces our times is the view of relativism. For instance, people seem to have misinterpreted the implications of quantum mechanics to be that the percept is entirely in the individual's mind. This misunderstanding is expressed in new age literature such as Seth Speaks and Jitterbug Perfume. The newly popular confused view is that everyone has their own reality (entirely!). This has led to the false idea that the whole world is an expression of your own ego or thoughts. An individual's thoughts, it is falsely assumed, is causing the image world. How absurd!

What needs to be understood is that some of the world that you perceive is the same for everyone and some is an outcome of one's personal biology and personal beliefs, i.e. an interpretation of that global reality.

Currently the world is divided into two false views. One is that the world is independent of all perception. The other is that it is dependent on an individual's beliefs. Both are wrong and incomplete. The whole world is perception, but not the perception of the individual.

The above model accounts for both the objective and the subjective. It does away with the old false dichotomy that it is one or the other.

Another outcome of this confusion is the sense that there is no 'truth' and that all beliefs are mere opinion—or worse—mere "language games" (Ludwig Wittgenstein). This frightening view has led to two equally frightening responses. On the one hand you have a loss of respect for truth and a view that everyone has their own truth... and of course a totally self-absorbed way of living. The other is in reaction to this nightmare—fundamentalism. Fundamentalism (the reaction to relativism) is now leading us backward to a time of dogmatism and superstition.

In the new view it is possible to have a clear sense of reality while remaining undogmatic. For one has a sense of what is true for all and what is not. And one need not choose between "all is individual" and "nothing is individual." So I think this view heals a terrible divide between relativism and fundamentalism.

Quantum Mechanics

Quantum mechanics has come to be associated with a lot of hocus pocus. People use the 'amazingness' of quantum events to justify almost anything. This is an unfortunate state of affairs as it leads to the argument from ignorance that can be abused to justify almost any nutty claim. In the new view quantum events are rather trivial. In "The Evolution of Perception" I explain what quantum events are and why they seem bizarre. They only seem bizarre through the lens of the old way of looking at reality. In the new way they have no hocus pocus and they have no important implications. Quantum events, in recent time, have been used to further justify that everything is in your head. This is a socially and scientifically dangerous misunderstanding. Quantum laws arise prior to the rise of individual mind. Thus the individual observer is not creating quantum events as certain people have thought. Nor are they very mysterious when understood in the context of an ordered process that gives rise first to individuality and then to the image world.

George Berkeley

George Berkeley was the philosopher with a view closest to this one. What Berkeley calls 'ideas in the mind of God' simply are lenses in this view, ways of seeing. But Berkeley failed to account for the influence of the principle of time and thus imagines God as truly distinct from our minds. Yet Berkeley comes amazingly close.

Myth

Anyone who has studied the work of Joseph Campbell has realized that the subject of myth is embedded in a deep mystery. I believe that myth arises in man's own mind and is a layer of man's individual lenses, born of thought and education. But what has mystified me is that all cultures have certain common myths (See The Hero With a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell). This has made me wonder if I have it wrong. Does myth arise earlier in the process, before the rise of individual awareness? Or could it be that the universal mind (collective unconscious) realizes its own journey in the state of man as individual and then expresses this dimension as myth. If one studies what Campbell calls "the hero myth" he sees that it oddly reflects the whole process above as an inner journey. I think these are questions for future generations. Myth is key. In the hero myth man seems to have guessed his own real purpose, to journey into illusion to discover by trials his own real original identity.

Understanding how the model works

I want to try to explain the rationale behind the idea of an evolution of perceptual schemata (lenses) as described above, along with how these schemata give rise to the aspects of what we see.

My daughter once saw a steam shovel and asked what it was. Perhaps they call them back hoes now, but I said, "It's a steam shovel." Then she asked me how it was made and I said, "It was made out of metal." Then she asked me where all that metal came from and I said, "It was dug out of the ground." To this she asked how we got the metal out of the ground and I said, "We used steam shovels." Of course she laughed with delight because she had caught me in a circle of reasoning. So I made up the following story. "Long ago a man picked up a stick and dug up some soft metal near the surface of the soil. From this soft metal he made a little trowel. With his little trowel he could dig much deeper and dug up heavier metal. With this heavier metal he fashioned a strong hand shovel. With this strong hand shovel he dug up even more metals, mixed them to make even stronger alloys, and from these new alloys he fashioned a steam shovel and many other machines like cranes. And with these cranes he built this city."

As you see, the way out of circularity is to postulate a process. Otherwise we fall into an infinite regress. The same story can be told about the image-world and how it was formed. "Long ago there was perception, but it had a whim to know itself and so it went seeking. Since there was only perception, perception had to invent a first way of perceiving so it could build something out of itself. This first way of perceiving was distinction or duality, i.e. splitting in two. But this wasn't enough, for perception could not pull its distinctions apart from one another. So perception used distinction to make a particular kind of distinction which served as a medium in which to manifest its idea of distinction. And this way of perceiving was time. Time made it possible to perceive relations. Out of relations perception created natural laws. And out of these natural laws perception formed a body. And now looking through this body perception saw other bodies. And now using its old idea of distinctions perception divided the bodies it saw into up and down, good and bad, rich and poor. Then perception (seeing and moving about through the vehicle of its invented bodies) built buildings out of decomposed bodies (stone and wood) and shaped houses and roads and labeled some good and some bad, some sacred and some profane, etc. And then perception had created a world out of distinctions in a world that we call the world of duality, which is really only in the imagination of the one and only reality, which itself never really went anywhere since there was nowhere in reality to go but itself. But by this time perception was quite caught up in this fantastic illusion it had formed and took itself to be this one and that one. Slowly perception (in the form of a man or a woman) began to question the distinctions it saw all around itself and wonder about its true identity. And one day it dawned on perception that perception had always been, always was, and always would remain the one indivisible source of all that it had come to perceive. Then perception no longer took itself to be the things it saw, but rather their source. And it saw that that impression was simply its own indivisible reflection in the world of forms. The world was of Him, yet He was not of the world. In that moment perception realized that the world of duality was really nothing and that perception, its source, was really the everything."

In short, out of perception are formed the schemata of time and space. Out of the schemata of time and space are formed the laws of nature. Out of the laws of nature are formed bodies. Through bodies color, sound etc. are perceived. Through intellect cultural schemata are conceived, creating the cultural world around us.

Mysticism

What does this model allow us to see that is of spiritual value? In what way does this model help us understand what is and is not real?

File:Model 8.jpg

What is important to see through this model is that that which is truly real (on the left in the above diagram) precedes or transcends the percept, i.e. does not fall into the scope of its imagined schemata (seen in the gray region of the diagram). In other words, God (or Self) cannot be understood in terms of the dimensions that we think in. Even to say "God is One" is merely a concept understood in contrast to duality. And no such contrast can apply. Thus, the nondual mystics say of the transcendental, "Not one; not two." What they mean to communicate is that about the "I am" we can only speak in negative terms, for we have no schemata to understand it with.

"Even to say There is one God is wrong. God is so infinitely One that He cannot even be called One. One may only say, One is." — Meher Baba
"There are two things that exist: One and Many. One we call God; Many we call Illusion. Why? Because in Reality only One is. Even to call this One, One, is not right -- One is." — Meher Baba

To understand that the Alpha is beyond understanding and to see precisely why this is so is the aim and terminus of philosophy. To yearn to experience directly that which we 'cannot' understand with our minds is the starting point of mysticism. If this model allows one to see this single idea of reality and illusion, and the shadow born of mind that conceals this divide, then it is of value. Of course the 'eye picture' on the left is simply a symbol that maps to nothing that we can conceive. It is more a 'place-marker' for what we cannot know with the mind, but is in fact that which asks the question and seeks its answer.

Comparing the Old Model and the New

The old model was called 'representationalism.' Representationalism is the view that you are looking at something primary (noumenal or mathematical) and interpreting it with your brain. The new model is different. It is a seeing through invented evolved schemata (ways of organizing experience) and the result is seeing as. Each perceptual schema brings complexity to the percept, which itself is nothing but a seeing as. In this sense there is no subject or object, but rather an evolved process of simply seeing. What I see is entirely a result of how seeing is occurring. The sensation of the subject-object distinction materializes out of this process. In a sense there is no seer or seen, but rather simply seeing. But this is nothing new to the mystics. In reality this is the truly old model.

We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related, the eternal ONE. And this deep power in which we exist and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are shining parts, is the soul.Ralph Waldo Emerson

Biography

My connection to Meher Baba and eastern and western philosophy is unique. My parents were both artists and highly educated people. My father Lynfield Ott was partially blind. Having a parent who is struggling to paint to make a living for his family as he loses his eyesight will make you think a lot about perception. It was on our family's mind all the time. When I was small my parents met Meher Baba in India, leaving us kids at home in Woodstock with a baby sitter. This turned our world upside down. I began my career in motion picture animation, but wound up in philosophy -- philosophy of perception. All this took me in a big circle back to my roots -- to art and spirituality. I have a daughter, Megan, who lives with me full time. My interests have begun to include a new focus on Hinduism even though Meher Baba was a Zoroastrian and a syncretic universalist. I am especially interested in Advaita Vedanta. I am also interested in Sufism, Gnosticism, Christian Mysticism, Perceptual Psychology, and of course Meher Baba. A life of exposure to many things has left me with a very strong sense that he was a pristine human being, a true spiritual teacher, and almost undoubtedly all he said that he was. Anyone is free to disagree.

Getting my book for free

The article above was originally titled "A Model of Perception" and was intended as an addendum to my rather brief book "The Evolution of Perception," though it was written after the book's publication in 2004. My book offers rigorous arguments for this view and does not mention God, Meher Baba, or even mysticism. It is a difficult read, but for the determined it can be a valuable addition to any physics or philosophy library. Besides being available in softcover all over the internet. a PDF digital version is available free by email to any registered Wikipedia member who requests it. To request a free PDF copy of my book simply go to my main page at User:Cott12 and click the email link at the top of the page and request it.



Remember, "Love thy neighbor as thy self." It's what Jesus would do.

File:God's love.gif