Talk:Oromo people: Difference between revisions

Amharas and Oromos

From what I've long heard, the Amharas and Oromos historically and currently haven't gotten along well and don't get along well, to say the very least. Gringo300 19:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Simply reason, which doesn't have to do with being an "outsider" or "insider", the Oromo were colonized in the last decades of the 19th century by Amarah/Tigray led conquest backed by western military support. Since their colonization the Oromos have been oppressed being treated as second class citizens because the Oromo are the majority population. The Ethiopian state from Thewodros through Haile Selaise and Meles Zenawi today feel that by abusing their power to oppress these people their are keeping the country under control, but in reality has further created a nationalist response in the form of the OLF which seeks freedom and liberation from Ethiopia. —preceding unsigned comment by 24.151.174.225 (talk • contribs) 06:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:RS, WP:NPOV and reverting reliably sourced content

(copied from my talk page, so everyone can participate for collaboration - MSW)

Hi, I want to discuss about your recent edit on Oromo people. Many of the sources you used are from Oromo nationalist writers. I am a citizen of Ethiopia with 100 million people (with over 25% of the population fit for fighting to any local/intl ideology) and with over 80 ethnic-groups/languages as well as diverse religions (40% Orthodox, 33% Islam (With some Salafi/Wahabi followers), 20% Protestant), and for these reasons am very much concerned with peace in my home country and in the region as a whole. The tone you used to add content is based on nationalists who paraphrase out of context and who do not use impartial/balanced tone to write their books. Personally, I avoid all writers from the region (be it Amhara, Oromo, Tigray, Somali etc) and rely on writers who donot have political interest in the region but write books only to share knowledge by taking all historical documents fairly without prejudice. To show you how the regions writers paraphrase out of context please see the Eritrea wikiedia page [3] in which one writer with PHD degree named Yohanis Okbazghi paraphrasing out of context of James Bruce statment. While James Bruce in his own book published in 1805 said Medri Bahri/Bahrenegash (Highlands of presentday Eritrea) was part of Tigre province of Abyssinia Okbazghi said Medri Bahri was independent which fought with Abyssinia constantly, and he did this intentionally to promote Eritrean independence from Ethiopia. See this is how the regions nationalists manipulate history for their own agenda (to create resentment/hate between people and for their secessionist agenda). Please note that all African tribes were in hostile relation before 19th century and if we want to see a distablised African continent (with over 2,000 languages spoken and to create 2,000 ethnic countries) then we could write in every tribes wikipedia page saying your neighbouring tribes used to call you this and that, they have this and that stereotypes on you, you used to fight with them and they used to sell you into slave markets etc etc. Please note that it is those kind of sterotypes that led into Rwanda Genocide. Also note that there are Portugese eye witnesses, like Jao Bermudes, who came to help the Christians against Gragn Mohamed in 16th centuary who also fought with the Oromo expansionist and I don't see the importance of telling his graphic description of the Oromo warfare system in all the affected tribes of Horn of Africa in their Wikipedia page. It is for these reasons I am reverting your edit. Thank you —EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:45, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: I appreciate your concerns. However, as you know, wikipedia is not a place to accuse professors based in the USA or Europe or Africa or elsewhere, or peer reviewed articles by scholars of being "nationalist writers". We also can't accept unsourced/OR-filled articles, like the way this article has been (even if under your watch). Content that was cited, I have checked and where appropriate, I removed WP:Copyvio and reworded to better match what the source is actually stating. We must seek balance per WP:NPOV, for all sides. You mention Eritrea wikipedia page above, to explain your concerns, but frankly that is not relevant here. If you point out specific scholarly sources I have added, and then express your concerns, I will work with you to collaboratively improve this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

(ps) To help our discussion, I will list some of the numerous sources I added. What is your concern with these scholarly publications: [1] Encyclopedia of Africa. Oxford University Press; [2] The Political Economy of an African Society in Transformation. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag; [3] Peoples of South-west Ethiopia and its Borderland, International African Institute, Routledge; [4] The Origins of the Galla and Somali, The Journal of African History; [5] A History of Ethiopia: Volume II (Routledge Revivals): Nubia and Abyssinia, Routledge; [6] Some records of Ethiopia, 1593-1646, being extracts from the history of High Ethiopia or Abassia (Series: Oromo Peuple d'Afrique), Kraus Nendeln; [7] Being and Becoming Oromo: Historical and Anthropological Enquiries, Nordic Africa Institute; [8] Greater Ethiopia: The Evolution of a Multiethnic Society, University of Chicago Press; etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:03, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, my issue is with the importance of information added. For instance there are so many reliable sources written by past European scholars calling all African tribes using very deamning and derogatory terms telling how African tribes were heathen, savage & barbarians. I have seen many European reliable documents which can be used to add content here in wikipedia saying all Ethiopians including Chrstians as barbarian & savage people who needs to be civilised. I don't see the importance of adding those information in all African tribes wikipedia page. If we go to Zulu tribe wikipedia page we don't see content saying Europeans used to refer Zulu people as heathen and savage people or if you go to Amhara page you also don't see content saying a book writen by X European writer referring Amhara people as barbarian & savage people (though there is reliable document written by Euoropeans saying Amharas including their priests are barbarians). Ms Sarah, my question for you is what is the importance of adding such kind of information? and if such kind of information should be added here then why should we not add similar information in all over 2,000 African tribes wikipedia page i.e. we should also add content saying "Zulu, Xhosa, Kikuyu, Masay, Nubian, Ashanti, Amhara, Oromo, Somali, Hutu, Tutsi etc tribes were heathen, barbarian & savage human species according to X European writer published before 1950s"? In regards to relation between African tribes you go everywhere and there is positive and negative stereotypes and what is the importance of adding those stereotypes in wikipedia pages? Why shouldnt we just write about the government systems i.e. if there is any system that discriminated people from government bureaucracy then we should focus on that. For instance, Aparthide is a government system that discriminated people based on their biology and this topic might be important information to add on Zulu people wikipedia page while not adding the stereotypes white people have on Zulu black people like how they used to OR are still calling them heathen, barbarian & savage people in public or in secret in their house. In Ethiopia there was no government system that discriminated people based on their biology as there were people with Oromo blood (Ras Ali, Ras Gugsa, Emperor Haileselase....) who effectively ruled Amhara & the rest of Ethiopian people. There are also people with slave background (like Habtegyorgis Dinagde who doesnot have any Amhara blood) who was appointed by Menelik as acting primeminister & warminister whom later became the king maker after Menelik's death and who allowed Haileselase to be the next king. Menelik's mother is also a slave and also Mengistu Hailemariam's father was a slave from Nilotic (Shankella) people and no government system prevented them from ruling Ethiopian people (including Amhara people) unlike the Aparthide system where a person with one black ancestry was not allowed to rule the black majority country (South Africa) and black people were not allowed to marry/date white people by law/government system. For your info I don't belong to Amhara or Tigray ethnic-group but just concerned about peace in my home country. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:47, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: So you do not have issue with reliability of the sources I have added, and you have identified no specific issues. Instead you mention "Aparthide [sic] is a government system that..." etc. Please see WP:COMPREHENSIVE and WP:TALK. The quality of other wikipedia articles is not relevant here (fwiw, other Africa and non-Africa related wiki articles do summarize these issues, see Kongo people, Beti people, Apartheid, Armenians etc). The old version you have reverted to grossly misrepresents Oromo people, their origins, their society etc and violates wikipedia content guidelines/policies. The old version is POV-y and OR. It uses sources such as Lonely Planet Tourist guide for history/origins, then misrepresents even that Lonely Planet source. The old version does not summarize the reliable sources. It has claims that flatly misrepresent what WP:RS state, such as Oromo origins in the southern tip of Ethiopia and migrated into their current locations because of "great trade". You have removed scholarly sources and returned blogs/websites as source or OR for Gadda/Religions/Calendar section. Please don't do this. If you read this revised version which you keep removing carefully, and the sources I have added, you will see that I have made effort to keep the balance for Oromo and non-Oromo sides. If you identify WP:RS that other editors and I have not considered, you can (or I can help you) add a summary from them to improve the article further. Since you are edit warring, I will request one or two admins who watch Africa-space articles to intervene/guide us here. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:52, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, my issues is regarding to the reliablity of the sources you used as well the importance of information added. I have many specific issues on the content you added but the issue is you have edited so much that my opinion is we discuss issues paragraph by paragraph before you edit. I have seen one administrator recommending for edit warring editors "first discuss then edit". As per wiki rule BRD please we discuss first then we add those ones we both agree with and in those areas we have disagreement then we can request 3rd opinion, rfc request, dispute resolution and then may be finally take it to arbitration. Wikipedia is edited by consensus and by collaboration and that if any editor opposes other editors work then he can go into all these dispute resolution process. Based on wiki rule which state that even if a content is sourced by reliable sources their importance can be questioned and discussed to reach consensus and that the sources used can also be discussed if they qualify WP:QS and WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Among several issues I have (most I have not explained them yet so that we solve one issue at a time) with your edit I have discussed one of them above in detail i.e. your use of stereotypes regarding how the people are perceived by their neighbours and I have given example above if it is appropriate to add past European writers (those writers before 1920s) writing with their stereotype on African tribes being pagan, heathen, barbarian & savage people. Ms Sarah, you have added such stereotypes (pagan, heathen, barbarian, bad people) in this article and you have not answered my question above I forwarded to you as to weather you think it is appropriate to add such kind of stereotypes. If you think it is appropriate then why should we not add such negative stereotypes used by Europeans in the past on Zulu, Masay, Nubian, Amhara, Hutu, Tutsi, Muslims.... in every pages of tribes of Africa because it can be supported by reliable published sources (if requested I can bring those old books here)?? Once we solve this issue I can proceed to the other issues I have with your edit. Thank you — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 07:19, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: We must discuss their name Galla because [1] Galla is the predominant term in the early and pre-20th century literature, [2] the first known use of word Oromo to refer to these people is in 1893 (even then the Oromo word remained infrequent for many decades, only slowly did it gain wider acceptance), [3] we can't pretend that Oromo people did not exist or were not written about before, [4] Galla is discussed in numerous reliable scholarly secondary and tertiary sources on Oromo people. According to WP:NPOV, "neutrality means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". The problems of our world do not go away by censorship. Please read and reflect on WP:CENSOR. If you study the sources I have cited you will see there is lot more on Galla and the historic demeaning/persecution of the Oromo people, and I have already toned it down to the essentials while respecting "use plain language" and "what is directly verifiable in the reliable sources" guideline. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:04, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, you could just say previously they are referred by X name on past literatures written before 1970s, however, what is the importance of adding stereotypes associated with ethnic name here? There are negative stereotypes and perceptions associated with the name Amhara, Gurage, Tigray, Zulu, Masay, Hutu and all other African tribes by Europeans or by their neighbouring tribes and what is the point of adding them in wikipedia pages? Instead, why not just focus on government sponsored segregation/discrimination system if there is any? In Somalia Bantu-Somalis were not allowed to be clan lords/leaders of the majority cushitic Somalis and not allowed to marry/integrate with the cushitic Somalis and this is some form of state & social sponsored discrimination & segregation and probably this might be mentioned with in their respective pages while leaving the stereotypes and negative perceptions held by the cushitic Somalis on Bantu-Somalis. Aparthide might also be mentioned in SA black tribes because it is a state sponsored discrimination/segregation in which black people were not allowed to lead the black majority nation & not allowed to marry/date/integrate with whites by law/system. On the other hand there is no such similar law/system in Ethiopia and infact the Oromo lords like Ras Ali, Ras Gugsa, Emperor Haileselase & his wife Empress Menen, Negus Mikael Ali, Habtegyorgis were lords of Amhara & the rest of Ethiopians who also were on top of the government & social system of Ethiopia, moreover in the old literatures these lords are refereed by their old name as can be seen here [1]. In this source here [2] Henry Salt (Egyptologist) (A European who travelled in the region by 1809) said that the Amhara division of Abyssinia (i.e. Gondar, Gojam, Wallo) was entirely in the possession of the Galla, and he is talking about the Yejju Oromo tribe whom their dynasty began by an Oromo chief called Abba Seru Gwangul whom his descendants continued to be lords of Amhara people upto 1850s and after death of Tewodros Yohanis, Menelik & Haileselse allowed descendants of the Yejju Oromo tribe to be lords of Gondar Amhara Province even after 1930s. As I said earlier before 19th centuary all African tribes were in continuous clan wars for resource competition and every tribe will raid his neighbours (even if they speak same language & same religion) to acquire cattle, slaves, for ritual requirement and Donald Levine concludes here as to how the region was before 19th centuary — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: The sources you just provided merely confirm what I noted above. No, we can't just leave it as "previously they are referred by X name on past literatures written before 1970s" that you suggest. The obvious question in the reader's mind is why Galla name for a long time, why Oromo name now, why the change? Reliable sources discuss this. So must this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: This is not a case WP:IMPARTIAL or WP:ADVOCACY as you allege in this latest edit comment, because the summary is accurate and NPOV as explained above. I have met the WP:ONUS / WP:DUE guideline because the article must present "all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." The "Galla" and "Oromo" discussion is prominent in numerous WP:RS, and a summary belongs in this article. If you can't understand these wikipedia guidelines, you should seek help at WP:TEAHOUSE and avoid editing / warring in this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Welch is correct, we should deal with the issue of the name change. The article doesn't use the word barbarian by the way.

The quote messaging savage is from a book by Mohammed Hassen[3] who was quoting another writer:"Gadaa Melbaa has noted that 'the Abyssinians attach a derogatory connotation to the Galla, namely "pagan, savage, uncivilized, uncultured, enemy, slave or inherently inferior"' Although Melbaa is a pseudoynm, Melbaa's book and Hassen's comments are discussed here by Oromo specialist Professor Asafa Jalata [4]. These are reliable sources by our criteria.

I'd like a source for the quote using the word "heathen", which seems in this context to mean non-Muslim. Doug Weller talk

@Doug Weller: Indeed, will do. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:57, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, When choosing sources you have to be carefull because there are also writers who write for their own agenda such as for ethnic nationalism, secionism, advocacy, propaganda, divide and rule etc and the source you use must not be questionable and exceptional for exceptional claim as per wiki rule WP:QS, WP:EXCEPTIONAL, WP:ADVOCACY, WP:ONUS and WP:IMPARTIAL. Why would I take one source saying people with Oromo blood didnot have any place in Ethiopian government when the fact is the Oromos were on top of the system, when they also conquered Amhara people, taxed Amhara peasants/serfs and when they were actually lords of Amhara people. Since articles need to be neutral (not advocating for ethnic nationalists) there are also reliable sources saying Oromos being lords of Amhara people and what should we do about these sources? not include them? You have removed the content which says "The grand son of the Tigrayan Emperor Yohanis kissing the feet of the Oromo Lij Eyasu Mikael Ali Aba Bula before arresting him" and based on wiki rule NPOV then this information is also important, why do you delete it? Why do you want people to get only what ethnic nationalists are saying i.e. Oromos inferior when they were also masters of Amhara & Tigrayan people as recorded by history which is also another fact Oromo children should know? By the way Which specific source and page number did you use to add the ethnic stereotypes? I may need that source to be reviewd by other editors if it i qualifies under WP:QS and WP:EXCEPTIONAL. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Sources and NPOV

@EthiopianHabesha: You need to be much more specific and not discuss other articles, just this one. As you seem to think a travel guide is a good source, I think you may need to read WP:RS and WP:VERIFY. Deleting the material on history/origins seems to be a violation of WP:NPOV, how do you justify the deletion? And please don't discuss other articles, if you think they need fixing go to them and fix them. Meanwhile you've now had a 3rd opinion and should leave things as they are until you can get consenses. As an Arbitrator myself I can say that this isn't the sort of case we would take, we don't deal with content disputes. Doug Weller talk 09:44, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Borana calendar

The url for that didn't work for me but in any case the site is a travel site and my guess is that it keeps a copy of an article in violation of copyright. @EthiopianHabesha:, did you actually read the source. I really want an answer to this question.

But that's not the biggest problem, the real problem is the article itself, which needs updating. See this] by an acknowledged expert in the field. Doug Weller talk 09:48, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, the thing is she added a lot of information in which I have disagreement and that travel site is not one of them. I have no opposition if she can remove the source and the content added based on that source. Of the many issues I have with her edit I begun with the importance of information added that has got to do with stereotypes associated with ethnic name. I do have many specific issues but not to complicate the discussion I preferred to settle with this issues first before I proceed with the other specific issues I have with the content she added, modified and deleted. The response I wanted from her is either to say NO or Yes it is important to mention how ethnic groups are perceived by their neighbours or by past European writers for X and Y reason so that we have a very transparent discussion and reach consensus on the matter, and if that is not possible then probably invite more editors to give opinions as to her reasoning for supporting the inclusion of such kind of information on ethnic group pages. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:15, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: This is the wrong section, this is about the calendar. I still have no idea what you are trying to say because you aren't specific enough. Start a new section, place the material you dispute in the new section and specific reasons based on our policies why you don't like it. Doug Weller talk 14:32, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, I was responding to the question i.e. not related to Borana calendar you asked me in this section. I have explained my issues above in detail on why I am reverting Ms Sarahs edit with several posts by giving examples. The issue in a nutshell is that Ms Sarah added stereotypes such as Pagan, Heathen, Barbarian in this article (you may search these words in the article) and my question for her is what is the importance of adding such kind of stereotypes that were also associated to all African tribes by past European writers here in this and other African tribes article. That is my issue for now, it is very simple question and perhaps you can give me your 3rd opinion by saying No or Yes it is important to add them here for X and Y reason. And from that we can begin a transparent discussion. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:58, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

This section is about the calendar only. Doug Weller talk 16:27, 21 November 2016 (UTC)