Talk:Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg: Difference between revisions

Controversy Section

This section ends as follows: "The association of Die Meistersinger with Nazism led to one of the most controversial stage productions of the work. The first Bayreuth production of Die Meistersinger following World War II occurred in 1956, when Wieland Wagner, the composer's grandson, attempted to distance the work from German nationalism by presenting it in almost abstract terms, by removing any reference to Nuremberg from the scenery. The production was dubbed Die Meistersinger ohne Nürnberg (The Mastersingers without Nuremberg).[23]

The composer's great-granddaughter Katharina Wagner staged another highly controversial production at Bayreuth in 2007.[24] The Mastersingers were presented as the stuffy teachers at a school attended by the apprentices. Sachs was shown as an anarchist, while the prize contest was presented in the style of American Idol.[25] This production was streamed on the Internet in a webcast on 27 July 2008.[26]"

I don't think Katharina Wagner's production has the same kind of historical import as Wieland Wagner's post-War production. It is controversial in the same manner as many contemporary productions of operas are. I am removing this paragraph for the time being. It does not seem related to the main controversies regarding either Wagner's musical style or his nationalism, and it really does not fit in this section. It might deserve a place somewhere in the article, for instance in a notable productions section (is it particularly notable among productions?) but I will not alter the over all structure myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.74.53 (talk) 00:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit: I by no means intend to disparage the production, or the previous wikipedians. But there is a clear disconnect here in my opinion. Personally I would advocate a notable productions section, incorporating landmark standard and non-standard productions. Within such a section the Katharina Wagner production might be called controversial, less so beside the history of 20th Century German nationalism. Who wrote this?

The article needs a "production history" section (as with most other opera articles from all eras) and, in it, an account of the K.W. would be most appropriate. Viva-Verdi (talk) 01:51, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Rant

Just a trivial, very un-NPOV rant: In the Die Meistersinger Suite, the harp and percussion don't play until about the 300th measure (about 10 minutes into the piece). Then, they play for about 15 measures, and don't play for the rest of it. Which is why, with a couple of punctuation marks, we renamed it Die, Meistersinger! :) Dreamyshade

• Why don't you include this in the Trivia section? You could say something along the lines of "Die M is unpopular with harpists because...". Although this is not quite as bad as the symphony (Bruckner's 7th?) where the triangle plays one note - right at the end of it.--Dogbertd 07:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be an erroneous piece of trivia. The harp does play comparatively little during the opera, but does play throughout (beginning, middle and end). It enters about 50 bars into the overture and plays in and out of the opera; and although it does not play the actual ending of the work, it does so very close to the end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Batonpower (talk • contribs) 20:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

In Act III synopsis, using the English word "section" for the German word "Bar"

The word used in the German libretto for a section of the Master Song is "Bar." The synopsis used the word "bar" as if it were the English equivalent. But that's a false friend (or perhaps a false cognate). A "bar" in English is a measure--a much smaller unit. Each "Bar" in Walther's prize song, however, contains perhaps two dozen measures. In fact the length and intricacy of these "Bar"s, and the tendency of each of them to extend and develop the previous "Bar" rather than to stay constrained to a tame, fixed length and form is a issue in the drama. So I changed the word "bar" to "section". Hope that's OK with people. DSatz 20:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

When a word is difficult to translate, that isn't necessarily ironic.

The section called "Genesis" contained these sentences, which I found somewhat overwritten:

"Although Die Meistersinger is a comedy, it also elucidates Wagner’s ideas on the place of music in society, on renunciation of the Will, and of the solace that music brings in a world full of “Wahn”. Wagner was always enthusiastic for his operas to be presented in the vernacular, so it is ironic that one of the central concepts in Die Meistersinger is a word difficult to translate into English: Wahn. "Illusion", "madness", "folly" and "self-deception" are all variously used to translate Wahn."

My only complaint is that this isn't really an ironic situation; it's a simple, common fact that a given word in one language may not have an exact equivalent in another language. Perhaps Wagner would have felt a bit frustrated at this situation if he had cared or been aware of it, but perhaps not; more than likely he would have thought that we non-Germans should all learn German, if only to understand his opera libretti. I can't imagine him hesitating over this sort of thing for one moment.

Also (though I didn't do anything about this), Die Meistersinger is indeed a comedy--but there's nothing unusual about profound ideas being presented in a comedy! So I really don't think that the "Although ..." construction belongs here. It really seems like over-reaching, like trying to sound "literary". The information presented in this article is excellent, and doesn't need to be cloaked in a "literary" style to make it good. DSatz 20:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. The irony - as I perhaps didn't express very well - is that Wagner wanted his works in english for an english audience, however one of the primary concepts in DMVN is a word which cannot really be translated into english: this is irony in anyone's book, but I did think when i wrote it that to call this irony would probably invite some comment. I know a lot of people don't understand the concept. I'd be happy if someone else wants to rewrite this section in a less "literary" style: I just thought it important to point out the way that some commentators have found the influence of Schopenhauer in DMVN. I also need to add a section on Barry Millington's opinion (ie. that Beckmesser is a Jewish stereotype).--Dogbertd 11:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

anime reference

The Trivia section now includes the following: Boogiepop from the popular anime franchise is fond of whistling the tune to the opera. Would anyone like to say which tune that is? The opera has, uh, several. --GuillaumeTell 17:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Trivia

People, can we make an effort to remove the Trivia section? The guidelines at WP:TRIV suggest that information in trivia sections should be incorporated into the main text or removed. Some of the trivia here is very trivial (eg. attempts to note every use of material from Meistersinger in films or rock music) and I think should be removed. Some of it (the section on Hanslick) should be incorporated into the article.--Dogbertd 13:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've removed the section and incorporated the relevant bits of info elsewhere in the article.--Dogbertd 08:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Master/Meister?

Reading through the article again it strikes me that we've used "Meistersinger" pretty much all the way through when we're talking about the Mastersingers. Take a look at the article introduction to see what I mean. The Meistersingers developed a craftsmanlike approach to music-making etc. Would it be better to translate this word - except where it refers directly to the title of the opera?--Dogbertd 08:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Gustav Hölzel

I've knocked up an article on the first Beckmesser, Gustav Hölzel, one of the (I surmise) few people who created roles for both Donizetti and Wagner. Google reveals a reference to (I think) his complaining that some of Beckmesser's part was too high (does this ring a bell?), but, frustratingly, all that one can see is an excerpt from an article by Barry Millington in one of those journals for which you have to pay £10 for a download: [1] I don't have much by way of literature on Wagner, and I wonder if anyone here knows anything of the story, or has anything else that they can usefully add to the article? --GuillaumeTell 15:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The operissimo biography [2] has some more content. I can read German and I've added some of the content to the article, but you may be interested in reading it yourself.Singingdaisies (talk) 18:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The final warning against foreign influences

I really think it's important to indicate that the warning against foreign influences, in Sachs' final speech, has nothing to do with anything else in the opera. It's very ironic that MEISTERSINGER was so popular among the Nazis--its message is a call for dealing with outsider-ideas with an open mind. How much more ANTI-nazi can a message be???

Wagner wrote several operas which are supportive of nazism, but MEISTERSINGER is not one of them. (They are LOHENGRIN, THE GOBLIN'S RING, and PARSIFAL.) SingingZombie (talk) 05:58, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not quite sure if this is meant seriously, but I'll assume good faith. Firstly I think that the interpretative comments you've added are not relevant to the synopsis, which should tell the story - as Wagner wrote it - and should not include some sort of running commentary. If you can find verifiable support for your statements then they should be included in the section which discusses the reception of Die MS and which outlines the uses to which the opera was put.

Secondly, Wagner wrote no operas which are supportive of Nazism. That his operas were appropriated and distorted by the Nazis fifty years after his death was nothing to do with Wagner. I'm interested to hear "The Goblin's Ring." That sounds like fun.--Dogbertd (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, how about if I say: "Wagner wrote several operas whose messages can legitimately be used to support Nazism, but MEISTERSINGER is not one of them."?

And you say you want "verifiable support" for my claim that the final warning against foreign influences has nothing to do with anything else in the opera? How about the libretto itself--is that verifiable enough for you??? In fact there is exactly ONE mention of foreign influences, and that is in the final monologue itself. Other than that, nothing atall.

You are making a sarcastic comment about the title "The Goblin's Ring"??? What do you think the word "Nibelung" means??? SingingZombie (talk) 22:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

• No, you cannot write "Wagner wrote several operas whose messages can legitimately be used to support Nazism, but MEISTERSINGER is not one of them" unless you can reference it to a reliable source.

"How about the libretto itself--is that verifiable enough for you???" No, it's not. You are writing about your personal interpretation of the libretto, not about published commentary on the libretto.

SingingZombie, you have been warned about this kind of stuff (and your inappropriate, unreferenced, running commentaries) innumerable times in many different articles. These are supposed to be encyclopedia articles, not personal essays, magazine stories, internet forums, blogs, etc. They report what is already written in independently published reliable sources, not the personal musings of its editors. If you don't want your edits reverted, then you will have to take this on board. If you are not willing to take this on board, then you need to consider if Wikipedia is the right place for you. Voceditenore (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I have found and entered a source for out-of-place-ness of final warning against foreign influences; source suggests Cosima (Wagner's wife) was responsible for it going into the opera at all. The source is Harry Kupfer, stage-director at Bayreuth. (Directed best-selling video FLYING DUTCHMAN with Simon Estes and Matti Salminen.)

"Das heiss' ich mir echte Merkerschuh'; mein Merkersprüchlein hört dazu!" SingingZombie (talk) 04:48, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, Wagner was tempted to remove it from the opera but Cosima didn't like the idea, and so it remains. There's some reference to this in one of Wagner's letters, which would also shed some light on why he thought he might remove it. Must look out for this.--Dogbertd (talk) 09:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't there a recent production (probably in Germany) in which the music stopped before the final oration so that the singers could act out a discussion on whether it was appropriate to sing these words? Anyone remember details to aid a search for a reference?--Peter cohen (talk) 16:30, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

FWIW: Hamburg State Opera, directed by Peter Konwitschny. Early 2000s. -- megA (talk) 17:45, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Having today read this page for first time in years, I join Dogbertd in saying it would be incorrect to say any Wagner opera was composed in support of Nazism because he died in 1883 before the rise of the Nazi party in the following century. To keep this in context it would more clearly correct to say to the effect that they were appropriated by Nazi thinkers in support of their own cause by hailing Wagner as a German nationalist (and conveniently anti-Semitic) prophet.Cloptonson (talk) 10:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Satire?

In the article on Meistersinger there is a "Legacy" section which reads, in its entirety, "Richard Wagner, in his musical drama Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg of 1868, satirized the art of these early masters." Is satire the right word? Would anyone like to think of a better, and perhaps fuller, way of expressing what Wagner did? almost-instinct 19:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

From this edit: is "The plot of Richard Wagner's 1868 opera Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg revolves around the guild of Meistersingers and their singing contest." better? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:08, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Very elegant, thank you :-) almost-instinct 09:43, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Controversial infobox

I see there was an attempt to put a controversial infobox on this article without any prior proposal. I think that was unfortunate. Personally, I am opposed to using that box. --Kleinzach 01:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. I see "trying" an infobox, following discussions on project opera culminating in "My personal opinion is that where a footer navbox is available, replacing the header one with the infobox is perfectly acceptable. It is also perfectly acceptable not to do so." (not by me) - There are hundreds of opera articles, several of them with a footer navbox available: I will not "propose" every single time that I replace redundant information by information about the specific article. A centralized discussion about the alternative is open. - Please be careful using "controversial", I prefer: perfectly acceptable to do so or not to do so. Back to the article: what's wrong with this specific infobox? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Language tags

I cannot see that adding language tags, such as ''{{Lang|de|[[Mein Leben (Wagner)|Mein Leben]]}}'' wherever German is used, really adds anything, since it simply parses as Mein Leben. ''[[Mein Leben (Wagner)|Mein Leben]]'' produces exactly the same effect. --Michael Goodyear (talk) 13:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

You don't see it, but people using a screen reader hear a difference (the program will not try to pronounce in English but German.). - You improve accessibility adding the language (any language other than English), do so generously! - Nothing special to this work, of course. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Synopsis questions

At the beginning of the synopsis, we have:

"After a magnificent prelude, a church service is just ending with a singing of Da zu dir der Heiland kam (When the Saviour came to thee), an impressive pastiche of a Lutheran chorale"

Is all this description/explanation within the real guidelines of a synopsis? The use of pastiche could be explained elsewhere (it's not part of the STORY), likewise, though the prelude is indeed magnificent, such description is also not relevant to the story.

Later, we have:

"David gives a confusing lecture on the mastersingers' rules for composing and singing. (Many of the tunes he describes were real master-tunes from the period.)"

Again, is this explanation of the origin of the tunes part of the STORY, or just editorial commentary that should be elsewhere in the article?

2001:558:6017:2F:D77:F234:843E:D734 (talk) 18:04, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Ruskin

I moved this out. It's uncited, but that's not a serious issue, it just seems to stick out like a sore thumb in the section. Ruskin's obviously a famous guy, but he's not exactly known for his insights into music (or much else by the 1880s). This is certainly funny, but does it add real content?:

John Ruskin described Die Meistersinger in a letter to Georgina Burne-Jones in 1882: "Of all the bête, clumsy, blundering, boggling, baboon-blooded stuff I ever saw on a human stage, ... and of all the affected, sapless, soulless, beginningless, endless, topless, bottomless, topsiturviest, tongs and boniest doggerel of sounds I ever endured the deadliness of, that eternity of nothing was the deadliest, so far as the sound went. I never was so relieved, so far as I can remember in my life, by the stopping of any sound – not excepting railway whistles – as I was by the cessation of the cobbler's bellowing."

It's just a standard rant about about how 'modern stuff' is all formless noise etc. Paul B (talk) 21:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Infobox?

I suggest to restore the 2013 infobox, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

done --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Apologies Gerda, only just seen this. I don't think it very appropriate. Have removed it pending further discussion. I suggest that idf you are going to add these boxes as you have at other Wagner operas, you raise the issue first at WP:Opera and WP:Wagner.--Smerus (talk) 10:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Replied Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera, please let's have one discussion if we need one, - I don' think so. I like all Wagner's stageworks consistent, only completed what others began. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• I think this one could keep a infobox, it's a longer, extensive article, the summary material in an infobox is helpful to someone who wants the basic overview. Montanabw^(talk) 03:38, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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B class (60 points). Background information, composition details etc. are good. More development should be possible, including: Recent performance history First lines in German of important passages in the synopsis Some more illustrations Starting a recordings section -- Kleinzach 05:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC) Borderline Start/B (I gave it 58 points). Comments as per Kleinzach, plus: No need to summarise synopsis in the lead Synopsis needs some rewriting Beckmesser section looks rather odd - needs to be better integrated Historical inaccuracies section needs to be either improved and incorporated or dropped --GuillaumeTell 17:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC) Start 51/100. Some good stuff here. Addressing the issues around notable numbers, recordings and illustrations should achieve B with relatively little effort. At that point, GA status becomes a consideration for which the lead section needs to be a proper summary of the article. (Unlike GT, I see nothing wrong with the synopsis being summarised there.) The referencing, particularly of opinions would also need improvement, and coyrighted pictures without a fair use justification are a definite no-no. Also GT's stylistic comments re the Beckmesser, historical inaccuracies sections become a consideration for GA reviewers. More detailed comments in the marking scheme. Background/history of composition/discussion of plot and/or text, etc.: 12/15. Good but some of the information should be moved into the body of the article from the lead, which is meant to be a summary. Performance history: 10/15. Good on early performances and association with Nazis, Wieland production, but material on last 50 years is important too. Tabulated list of roles: 5/10. Contains everything I would want. Synopsis: 8/10. Good but could do with a couple of slight tweaks, mentioning that Beckmesser fills his board (to parallel Sachs completing shoes), that Sachs himself had written a Tristan and that holy German Art would endure the fall of the Holy Roman Empire. Should also include identification of important passages. Notable arias, etc: (preferably embedded in the synopsis): 0/5. The prelude, quintet, dance of the apprentices, entry of the mastersingers etc. should all get highlighted as important numbers. Critical appreciation, discussion of music etc 7/15 Needs more discussion of the episodes of the music, probably more or modern views of the opera. And it doesn't usially last about 5 hours. All three recordings I have are less that 4 1/2. And typical intervals would take it closr to 6 hours, of the diration was meant to be inclusive. Recordings: 0/10. Needs a discography. Illustrations, including musical illustrations 2/10 The Bayreuth illustration lacks fair use justification. Could do with more pictures and sound illustrations to match what eventually appear in musical discussion Inline references, notes, sources, external links 7/15. A decent start on referencing has been made. It's worth considering separating the links from the references and shifting to having the book/article names in the references and the notes just referencing author, date page in the notes. --Peter cohen 11:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC) Enough points have been addressed since the above that assessment on the same basis as three years ago would now have generated a B class.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Last edited at 19:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 13:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Welsch¹

in the article it says: ¹ The word translated here as "foreign" ("welsch") is a catch-all term denoting "French and/or Italian." Wagner here referred to the court of Frederick the Great, where French rather than German was spoken.

¹ welsch is an old German word that denotes the Romance (non-Germanic) languages, i. e. Italian or French or Occitan (compare the Anglo-Saxon "welsh", which has the same root) – it has neither negative nor positive connotations. I doubt that Wagner thought specifically of Frederick the Greats francophone court, I think he thought more generally about French cultural influence in the 18th and 19th century and possibly about the Napoleonic rule over Germany at the beginning of the century. --Furfur ^{⁂ [[User talk:Furfur| Diskussion]]} 15:35, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Before replacing it with a broader definition (if others don't have a problem) could you just in case look for a reference that would back up "Wagner here referred to the court of Frederick the Great" statement. Rybkovich (talk) 18:02, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, too. Firstly, why would Wagner rail against the long dead Frederick, or Hans Sachs against a German king in an unimaginable distant future? Secondly, in the context of 1868, Wagner used "welsch" (or "wälsch" in his spelling) almost certainly to refer to the French, and there's supporting literature. The "footnote" should be removed, and the English text could be replaced with a sourced version from here, or also be removed,

Beware! Evil tricks threaten us:
if the German people and kingdom should one day decay,
under a false, foreign rule
soon no prince would understand his people;
and foreign mists with foreign vanities
they would plant in our German land;
what is German and true none would know,
if it did not live in the honour of German Masters.
Therefore I say to you:
honour your German Masters,
then you will conjure up good spirits!
And if you favour their endeavours,
even if the Holy Roman Empire
should dissolve in mist,
for us there would yet remain
holy German Art!

The box's history: added by User:Dogbertd on 11-Sep-2009; the Frederick "footnote" was introduced by User:BFolkman on 1-Dec-2013. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:30, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

I beg to differ with both of these commentaries. The line "No prince would understand his people" is an unmistakable reference to Frederick the Great and his court. Wagner's whole point was that Germany was not, at the time of Meistersinger, on the verge of a great era of peace, prosperity and creativity--despite the optimistic atmosphere of the last act--but was soon to face very hard times and would not emerge as a nation for centuries--during which its national identity would be kept alive by its artists.BFolkman (talk) 16:07, 5 May 2018 (UTC)