User talk:Drmies: Difference between revisions

"Drmies is the only rational editor here."

Note to self

Category:Articles with a promotional tone from December 2017

Generalizing by ethnicity

Hi again,

Will you please help me?

I remember this edit of yours diff. There you referred to generalizing (by ethnicity, class, gender, etc.) connected with wikipedia editors. If I can interpet your statement, you basically stated that generalisations about wikipedia editors based on their ethnicity are very, very problematic.

I always thought that this kind of generalisation on wikipedia is valid not only for wikipedia editors, but for everybody, including authors of sources used on wikipedia. If they are alive, statements about their involvement with certain political movement might even be violation of WP:BLP?

I frequently encounter generalisations about wikipedia sources, based on the ethnicity of their authors.

I began to question myself and my position having in mind that:

• my report about it at ANI (diff) was ignored
• that many other editors routinelly use the same rationale when they want to discredit some source,

Will you please be so kind to clarify if generalisations about sources used on wikipedia based on the ethnicity of their authors are also very, very problematic? I sincerely apologize if I am wrong with something here.

Best regards,--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:37, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Hmm I'm not really sure what you're asking. My comment was in the context of the old "you can't be neutral cause you're Dutch/Serbian/Slav/Yugoslav/Belgian/Flemish" kind of argument--note that I was talking about generalizing, here in terms of motives and neutrality and whatnot.

  The diffs you were pointing at in that ANI report (I wish I had seen it at the time) are invalid but not because of exactly that reason. I suppose we can talk about Albanian sources and Yugoslav sources, if indeed the sources are from those areas when they were countries with those names, etc., but I don't understand that editor's reason at all and unless there's something I'm missing, this is a problematic edit. This, on the other hand ("Serbian authors thought he was a Serb"), is in principle a valid edit summary. I hope that clarifies? Drmies (talk) 21:00, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

To clarify my question I will use a couple of statements for example:

• "this source is unreliable because it was written by author who is Scot"
• "If you want to write an article about WWI topic you have to use sources written by non-Germans (Russians, British, Italians...)
• "Those sources are unreliable because they were written by the Kurds"

wp:RS says that reliability of some source can be affected by three factors: reliability of the author, work itself and the publisher. It does not mention nationality or ethnicity of authors.

I am simply asking exactly what I wrote. Summarized it goes like this: "Having in mind your statement that generalisations about wikipedia editors based on their ethnicity are very, very problematic I simply asked for your opinion if generalisations about sources used on wikipedia based on the ethnicity of their authors are also very, very problematic"--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah but now you're talking in relation to RS. That's a different thing but even with sources it's complicated. If you write about the Siege of Sarajevo and all you cite are Serbian sources, one might expect that someone will challenge that. But if someone says "you can't be neutral on that article cause you're Serbian", that's problematic, yeah. And no, I wouldn't discredit some article on Sarajevo because the author was a Serb, but it is possible that the article is biased because the author has Serbian sympathies. Or the author doesn't. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I already know that you find generalisations about wikipedia editors are very problematic. Now, I am talking only in relation to RS. Can I conclude that you think that sources are a different thing and that under some circumstances wikipedia editors are entitled to dispute reliability of the source based on the ethnicity of their autor(s)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but this is very much context-bound, and one is frequently wrong. For instance, typically 19th German Protestant writers don't look kindly on Saint Boniface, and one should take their comments with a grain of salt, and Catholic authors, by the same token, have a tendency to overplay him and his veneration. Yet it's Albert Hauck, a German Protestant, who writes what one might call the first objective assessment of the saint and his work, in 1885. Drmies (talk) 21:07, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. I really appreciate your effort to write explanation to me but I don't know how to interpret it:

1. The first word of your answer says yes (to my question if wikipedia editors are entitled to dispute reliability of the source based on the ethnicity of their autor(s))
2. then all other words you used to explain why it is context bound and .... frequently wrong, presenting example which completely refutes "yes" answer.

If it is necessary to take care about the context and consider situation case by case, regardless of the ethnicity, then your answer to my question is actually no, isn't it?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Your question included the words "under some circumstances", so Drmies answer "Yes, but ..." was exactly what he meant. He did not mean no, or he would have said "No, never, not even under some circumstances". Softlavender (talk) 08:29, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

My reply pointed to the fact that after but is necessary to consider things regardless of the ethnicity, then your answer to my question is actually no. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:42, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

You understand what the word "but" means, right? It means "except". So Drmies did not mean no, he meant "Yes, except for the fact that ...", or or "Yes, but only in some circumstances", or "Yes, except you have to be very very careful". This is because your question deliberately included the phrase "under some circumstances" [1]. If you had not deliberately included that phrase, then his answer might have been something like "Usually not", or "Try to avoid doing it except in rare cases". Softlavender (talk) 21:26, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I do understand what the word "but" means. But, my question deliberately included the phrase that if after but is necessary to consider circumstances unrelated to the ethnicity, then your answer to my question is actually no. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:31, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Then either your logic is faulty or your command of the English language is insufficient to carry on a discussion of fact and logic, because your question has been answered and the answer has been explained twice, and the answer is still the same: Since your question used the phrase "under some circumstances" the answer is "Yes, but ..."; the answer is not categorically "No". If you ask the question again, and omit the phrase "under some circumstances", then the answer will be different. Softlavender (talk) 16:51, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Let me try a couple of examples. If someone were to say "Antidiskriminator sounds like a German name so obviously all edits the editor makes about WWII are Nazi propaganda", then the person saying that would first be regarded as an idiot (probably your name isn't German anyway), and secondly probably blocked for personal attacks (i.e. being "very, very problematic"). If, instead, someone were to say "Wolfram Wette is German so no books he has written about WWII can be trusted", then the person saying that would first be regarded as an idiot, and secondly reminded about WP:BLP (Wette is still alive), and thirdly eventually topic-banned from that topic area for an inability to make sense. So this second case is only "very problematic", not "very very problematic". One case is about saying silly things about a Wikipedia editor, and one case is about saying silly things about an author of sources. Sorry for the contrived examples, but perhaps it illuminates something? MPS1992 (talk) 01:07, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and saying silly things about sources (but based on who wrote them) is another step further removed, so perhaps that's only problematic, not even "very problematic". But if people keep making problematic edits, eventually someone will stop them from doing so, I think. MPS1992 (talk) 01:10, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I am not quite sure why AD went from discussing people to discussing sources. Drmies (talk) 03:58, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I didn't notice that until I'd already written all those things :) But yeah, if it's not OK about people, then it's not OK about people who write sources, so not OK about the sources that people write. Maybe? MPS1992 (talk) 04:06, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the actual ANI thing is definitely the last thing that anyone should do, so I just did so. I am completely unclear as to how the diffs there relate to the claims here. Antidiskrininator, what are you on about? MPS1992 (talk) 04:09, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

FYI

User:VolteFight is this kid who has been trying to stuff himself onto Wikipedia under various articles. I notice that the last batch of accounts seemed to be sleepers, which isn't his normal M.O. Can you CU to see if there are others? See my recent user page tagging for the last batch. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 04:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Gogo Dodo, Drmies isn't an Arb or a CU. Softlavender (talk) 14:07, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Au contraire Softlavender, it's well known that Drmies is the best checkuser.[2] -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 14:12, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

(scratching head) How/when did that happen? I thought arbs relinquished their CUs when they left the arb-sphere. Softlavender (talk) 14:15, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

We can keep 'em if we're gonna use 'em. Same for OS. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The BEST. And BENEVOLENT. Drmies (talk) 14:48, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

And not to forget the Great and Powerful. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 16:43, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

• CU-confirmed. I didn't find any more. I can't judge if I should block a range, Gogo Dodo--I'll send you a possibility or two. Drmies (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
• User:Paramatma Brahma is the next one. GogoDodo, expect another email. Drmies (talk) 15:10, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Your comments at Talk:6ix9ine#Rap trivia were like a hammer hitting a nail. Magnolia677 (talk) 14:54, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

• Ha thanks! A barnstar is much nicer than starting beef. But I guess every genre of Wikipedia article has its own hobbyhorse, its own trivial blind spot. Drmies (talk) 15:48, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Query

Is this the same guy as that HarveyMecken3 sock you just blocked?--Mr Fink (talk) 23:37, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

• I suppose... Drmies (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, so much for that, then. Thank you for your time.--Mr Fink (talk) 00:10, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

There's nothing more to say. Already blocked, and CU revealed no other accounts. I rolled back their edits. Drmies (talk) 00:12, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi

Thank you for agreeing with my removal of content in the article Education in Greece, i was the IP user 94.66.222.241 then but i created an account shortly after — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.Unknown1 (talk • contribs) 15:20, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

I understand why they made you an admin, you're a great editor Mr.Unknown1 (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Reverted edit

In reference to my reverted edit, I believe a more thorough consideration would allow some of my edits to go through. I’m not trying to slant the article to make it sound like the conspiracy theories are true as one user asserts, only make sure referenced material is accurately represented. While some progress has already invalidated part of the reverted changes, the third paragraph states an accuracy I was trying to fix. The declassified documents are also indirectly mentioned in the next paragraph, and a dead url is a dead url. UpdateNerd (talk) 08:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)I just looked at your edit with a fresh pair of eyes, and I have to agree with the revert:

1. You added a {{who}} tag right before the text answered the question of "who?" You couldn't read forward 4 words? Not to mention that the source supports the content: historians in general dismiss the theory that Hitler fled to Argentina (though I will add that the source needs to be replaced with a higher quality one).
2. You changed a quote. Changing a quote is pure dishonesty. We don't ever change or edit quotes unless absolutely necessary, and even then, we always clearly mark what we changed.
3. You made claims about declassified FBI documents that aren't supported by the source.

You broke two of the cardinal rules of WP three times: You put spin on content with your {{who}} tag and you misrepresented sources with both the quote alteration and the FBI claim. I'm sorry, but those do not represent good edits.article ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:31, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Just to clear up, I edited the quote to match the source. My other edits had a well-founded reason too, but ah well. UpdateNerd (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

• Thank you MPants. UpdateNerd, you can argue this, if you like, but you really have to do that on the talk page. Drmies (talk) 18:36, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Question about Eranrabl/SuperJew

Greetings Drmies, it's been three months since I asked this User_talk:Bbb23/Archive_44#Eranrabl/SuperJew. That's frankly ridiculous for an admin to blatantly ignore a polite request for clarification on the rules, therefore I ask you (as the admin who was behind the unblock request's denial).

I'm wondering, what's going to be the final result of the whole Eranrabl/SuperJew "sockpuppet" situation? I understand that the admins seem content with the status quo, but I'm genuinely curious as to what other steps of mediation could be taken in this issue. I'm curious, did either of the accounts violate WP:BADSOCK? Because I really don't think they did at all. Also, I feel that the reasons given behind the decision seem to contradict several policies. What would stop me from claiming that @Number 57: is also a sock, as he has similarly edited football articles and Israeli ones?

It has been three months and this Julian Assange-esque impasse shows no signs of resolution.

Having both users in purgatory isn't right, nor is it fair. - J man708 (talk) 14:10, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

@J man708: ARBCOM are considering this at present, although very slowly. I emailed them ten days ago about this as I think there's clearly some kind of quirk with Israeli IPs that is making three editors (Eranrabl, SuperJew and the IP that keeps making ethnicity-related edits) appear to be the same person and the behaviour evidence suggests these three editors are not related. I've also pointed out to Arbcom (or at least to BU Rob13) that they're in possession of some facts (ie real names and details both editors have stated on their talk pages) that allow them to see that Eranrabl and SuperJew to be different people in real life. I don't know why nothing has happened yet. Number 57 16:59, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I've just prodded the Committee on this again. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 17:23, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh, that's the soccer editors, no? Rob, thank you for prodding, and you too, Number 57. Yeah, all of us will just have to wait, I'm afraid... Drmies (talk) 20:05, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

What does it mean about the soccer editors, please? MPS1992 (talk) 23:11, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

? Editors who edit soccer things. Drmies (talk) 23:46, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh, thank you. I thought it was a euphemism for something horrific. Assuming that it isn't, which editors are referred to? MPS1992 (talk) 00:58, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

So, what's the next step? How long does ARBCOM usually take? This seems unnecessarily slow. - J man708 (talk) 02:08, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, you can email them... Drmies (talk) 02:12, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Revive me

Persistent little pest aint he. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:33, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• Yep. I forgot what to put in as a reason when I ran CU, since there's so many of these jackasses and they're all the same. I had totally forgotten this one's name. And there's this other child who leaves stupid messages for me all over all the other wikis. I don't even look at them anymore--they get blocked and reverted anyway. Drmies (talk) 01:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
  • On that subject, I have received two alerts on this subject header text on the fact that I was mentioned in some reviewing block template with the reason they claim isn't the sock of the LTA, in what is probably the same user as Ad Orientem is saying here. Conversely, see this when they say it has been used by this LTA. (Yawn!) Iggy (Swan) 08:51, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi Doc

Long time no speak. Hope all safe and sound with you and the fam with the weather and all.

I have been gone for a while, but dipped my toenail back in recently and came across the issue noted here, but Mr B seems to be off WP for the moment. Any other CUs you know and love you could recommend I ping on this? Don't want to make a federal case of it on some notice board, just wanted to get someone to opine and action, if appropriate.

Stay safe ^Bongo_matic 18:25, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• Bongo, I am so happy to see you again. Just a few days ago I was going through some old DYKs--you are one of the ones who really got me going here. MBisanz is on vacation? I'll have a look. Drmies (talk) 22:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

The mother of all DYKs. ^Bongo_matic 04:33, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oh--I know that ArbCom hands out permits, but that's about as much as I know. KrakatoaKatie is pretty adept at technical stuff: Katie, would you mind looking into this? Thanks Bongo, and you take care too. Please drop me a line if you run into exciting things. Drmies (talk) 22:37, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

IPBE is granted for extraordinary need. I don’t mean to be flippant, but ‘I like to use a VPN’ isn’t a compelling need, so I’d need more information before I’d grant an exemption. Katie^talk 00:07, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

@KrakatoaKatie: After this RfC the "exceptional need" requirement was softened to put more emphasis on the "trusted user" aspect of granting IPBE for VPN use and the policy was updated accordingly. The question here would be a judgment call as to whether having to disconnect from their secure VPN each time Bongo wants to edit Wikipedia constitutes a "need". --Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 18:32, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm not up to speed with the need to block anonymous proxy access for confirmed users in good standing in the first place, so certainly can't make an informed argument. But 'I like to use a VPN' is the same statement as 'I like to use baseline recommended Internet security', so I'm surprised that a) this doesn't come up a lot; and that b) the functionaries haven't spent time thinking about how to accommodate good security practices for editors. ^Bongo_matic 02:10, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Update. Don't know precisely what happened or how, but it appears that I can edit while connected through NordVPN now. Don't know if their IPs have been unblocked or what else might have happened.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but NordVPN has always had some servers set aside for editing WP. They obfuscate some of their IPs specifically to avoid sites that block proxies. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:11, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for blocking all those socks

Just wanted to say thank you for always being so quick to block (and mop up after) the socks that keep popping up over and over again. I greatly appreciate it. Aoi (青い) (talk) 01:01, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• I'm sorry we let this happen. Glad to help; I hope this helps a little bit. Drmies (talk) 01:07, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
  • You've got nothing to be sorry for. Besides, I'm so used to this particular LTA now that their ridiculously comments and laughable empty threats don't bother me one bit. I'm just sorry that this guy leaves a mess of stupid edit summaries and comments that sypsops need to clean up after. Aoi (青い) (talk) 01:18, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
    • OK, so this is the STOP CHANGING!!!!!!MY EDITS COCKSUCKER!!!!! person? I think I asked you (or someone else) this before--but there's an SPI, is there not? I remember, but only vaguely--and it might not help much anyway. Drmies (talk) 01:20, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

New section

;) John from Idegon (talk) 02:40, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

How's the pay? I already got hussled today to stand for Faculty Senate. Drmies (talk) 02:42, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Bout what you'd expect. We'll start you at 50% of what I'm getting, with a 2.76189% increase (based on performance of course) quarterly for the first five years, at which time you'll receive a 150% increase, two weeks paid vacation, sick leave and a pension. Of course you'll be summarily terminated one week later for no reason at all. John from Idegon (talk) 04:07, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

No good deed goes unpunished. ^Bongo_matic 04:09, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Rusty?

Hi Doc

Want to check if I need my joints oiled. Views about this??

Thx ^Bongo_matic 14:25, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• Yeah I have a few (and no, I think you're not rusty at all). One of em was actually stated very well by Black Kite in that conversation. The other is OMG just move along, User:Neo-Jay. I suppose Americans are so used of naming suspects and plastering their photos all over the paper that it's hard for them to see that posting a mugshot is actually A Big Thing. BTW did you see what I just removed from that article? Thanks, Drmies (talk) 23:09, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

• Next you're going to tell me that People Magazine and Us Weekly are not RS for GNG purposes. ^Bongo_matic 00:07, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
• By the way, just got this very nice honor. ^Bongo_matic 10:55, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Nice but y u hatin' on Eminem? (Not that I care, by the way...) Drmies (talk) 00:55, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Not at all. Just reverting vandalism. I love Eminem's homage to the Beastie Boys. ^Bongo_matic 01:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Bongomatic, care to explain this? You're in Ohio, coming through the crazy Y-O-Y-O? Drmies (talk) 01:01, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Legit. ^Bongo_matic 01:09, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Suspected sock

@User:Drmies Hi, I need the advice of an admin, and I have previously found you to be helpful.

At Talk:Coordinated Universal Time an IP user, 92.24.107.165, has been posting trollish remarks (which have now ensnared me twice, I'm ashamed to say). Another editor, User:Jc3s5h hatted one of the resulting threads while I was replying to it, with a summary saying that the user was banned; when I inquired, the explanation was this. I reverted my comment (and the IP's follow-up); IP has restored my comment, and their own comment, and has now started trying to engage me on the same thread concerning other articles I've edited (which I consider stalking). The address is in a range allocated to TalkTalk, and is adjacent to one listed in that Long-term_abuse article as a sock of the subject of that article. The IP itself is not so listed.

92.24.107.165 is clearly disruptive - see the recent history of Talk:Coordinated Universal Time. The account given in the Long-term_abuse article says to me that I'm way out of my depth - Vote_(X) seems to be quite troublesome.

I'm not sure how to proceed. I don't hang around administrative noticeboards, and I've never tried to report an abusive user before. I think this IP should probably just be summarily blocked, the admin discussion having already been completed. Surely this doesn't require opening a new case? MrDemeanour (talk) 14:51, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I've taken the liberty of blocking the sock. All one needs to do is say that name within earshot of most admins, such as the helpful Drmies here. Sometimes WP:AIV can be used, if you mention that name. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 15:08, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you so much zzuuzz. MrDemeanour, it can be very hard to always deny trolls; I also get dragged in way too easily. Don't feel bad. Do feel free to exercise your editorial judgment: if you think you're dealing with a troll, one who's been blocked before, apply WP:DENY and simply delete the remark... Take care, Drmies (talk) 23:02, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

50.201.7.46

Remember this? Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive991#2600:1702:3310:6C30::/64 He's back, as 50.201.7.46 (talk · contribs). I have reported to AIV, is there anything else I can or should do? Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:30, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Widr-the-ever-vigilant has blocked. Vanamonde (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks--to all. Drmies (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Well done banning Wikipedia saboteurs like Bosco To. I wonder how much effort it take to maintain Wikipedia from so many random sabotage. Nat.Account (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Nat.Account, thank you, but I'm only one of many. There are indeed many, but we need all kinds: we need writers too. Drmies (talk) 00:56, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Huey Lewis and the News

I see you currently active, would you please consider acting this request. Thank you, - FlightTime (open channel) 01:07, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Seriously? What's next, Bryan Adams and Tina Turner? Drmies (talk) 01:11, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Huh ? - FlightTime (open channel) 01:14, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

FlightTime if you don't remember the 1980s you're too young for this talk page. Drmies (talk) 01:15, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Hmm OK. Blocked the last two. Houston, we have a problem. I see that Ad Orientem dropped some longer blocks--perhaps that's the way to go here, but I'm about to check out due to a. fire with marshmallows and b. halftime is over. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 01:15, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Enjoy :) thanx, - FlightTime (open channel) 01:17, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Played some music while we were outside. "It's Only Love" is still a great song. Drmies (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

A funny little reference in WP:TTR

Hi Dr hope all's well! Now, I know you've been around a while on here, so maybe you can remember what this referring to. I stuck up a template on my user page saying I don't mind being templated. Reading the essay WP:TTR I noticed a couple of enigmatic references to an 'admin coach.' It must be an old essay. Did there used to be admin training? Sounds like a good idea. Regards Simon Adler (talk) 19:15, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

AE

Sandstein closed it, which I think is actually a good thing, given that it was turning into a free-for-all. But he also says explicitly that you are free to act on your own. Given a 1-1 admin view, I think you should examine the AE section and decide for yourself. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I was going to ask the same before I saw the above note. Just to be clear, I don't think anyone including myself should be re-arguing the case on Drmies talk page at this point as everyone should have already made their case at AE. I do have one request I would like to make though if you do make a statement either way. In my statement, I linked to a few previous AE cases on GMO aspersions either directly or to one where I had previously mentioned a lot of the main cases we've had so far with degrees from similar to this case to directly calling someone a shill. That's located where I was basically showing how the GMO aspersions principle has been handled at AE, what's considered unacceptable behavior, and where we've sanctioned more or less the same behavior before.

If you decide to impose sanctions or say no sanctions, would you be willing to have a sentence or two in your justification that addresses how it fits with the making associations between editors and companies to cast doubt portion of the GMO aspersions principle and what has generally been considered inappropriate at AE previously? That's not going to affect what you ultimately decide, but it would help give more clarity to the community for this case decision (not necessarily a proclamation for all cases more suitable for WP:ARCA) between those like me who helped write the principle that was intended to get the behavior I presented to stop and those who consider it ok. If something is unclear just let me know. Thanks. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:51, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

• Tryptofish, I am way too much of a drive-by admin to act as the 1 over the other 1, that one being Sandstein. Here's the thing I don't like about this: one admin can close. If I don't agree and still act, I am as much a powerplayer as that other admin. I think these AE sanctions/decisions should be collective/collaborative decisions, and the only reason I'm not going back to it is that no other admin saw fit to jump in: that's the part that Sandstein surely got right. Kingofaces, I am sure you want more, and I am sorry I have no more to offer at this time. Drmies (talk) 01:03, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Obviously I'm frustrated an editor can be formally warned by an admin for violating DS only to have repeat behavior result in even less action, but that's more with the situation than any issue with you. I totally understand your perspective on how you want to admin though (similar to how I didn't want to fill up AE with multiple cases dealing with all the periphery stuff). That being said, it would be nice to have a mixture of admins with some a little more proactive occasionally patrolling the topic for more basic stuff or nipping in the bud and others like you dealing with more complex AE issues needing additional consensus, but if wishes were horses. . .

Continuing on from the case then, there is the question of how to get admins to take a bit more notice of these types of cases or realize that it's actually a serious thing ArbCom had to rule on for future cases. I floated a few questions to Seraphimblade on their talk page, so if anything there piques your interest on how to improve the GMO aspersion stuff when reporting it, I'm all ears. No obligation to dive in this stuff even more obviously, but I thought I'd see if you had any thoughts since you've thrown your hat into this stuff a little as an admin. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Drmies, my two cents: AE is not a collaborative or consensus-based endeavor. All decisions to sanction are unilateral, just like decisions to block. Consensus only comes into play if there is an appeal. If you take action where I declined to, therefore, that is not a problem at all insofar as I am concerned. Sandstein 06:56, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Drmies, I certainly understand that it would be awkward for you to act under these circumstances, and I want to say thank you to you for what you have done. (It seems to me that all admins are drive-by admins, except for the ones that burn out.) I think also that what Drmies said here: [3], is spot-on (except maybe for the grammar part: it's "me"). In my opinion, Sandstein was right to put an end to something that was turning into a shout-fest, but also, as a result, enacted a supervote: sort of like "I disagree with Drmies, and there's a good reason to stop discussion, so I'm going to close this in favor of what I think, and append a perfunctory invitation to other admins to act uninlaterally". It would have been more appropriate either to not close it, or to close it purely on the basis of stopping the shouting, but without taking a side. I could also make a case that Drmies should have just gone ahead a day after his initial comment, without waiting so long to hear from other admins. But that's all water under the bridge now.

Looking at my watchlist, there are already a whole bunch of needless arguments breaking out across the GMO topic area. And it looks to me like ArbCom is going to pass the buck at a WP:ARCA request for clarification that I filed. So I predict the problem will get worse in the GMO area until it gets so bad that action will have to be taken. Well, it's only a website. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:52, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Tryptofish, and I also think that was a supervote, and I disagree with the idea that all these decisions be unilateral, requiring no consensus. Drmies (talk) 17:58, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• Hmm I am amused to find so many prescriptive grammarians coming out of the closed (or the woodwork). If only they could point to a rule, which as prescriptive grammarians they must have access to. Drmies (talk) 17:58, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

According to Professor Tryptofish, (whom you shouldn't believe about grammar, being a neuroscientist and not an English prof), the rule is that when the personal word is the (what do you call it?) thing at the end of a prepositional phrase, then "me" rather than "I" is used. So, "unlike me" (rather than "unlike I") is like "according to me" (rather than "according to I").

And I already had to use up my one 1RR revert just now. Sigh. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

“This is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put.” ― Winston Churchill O3000 (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

"With which me will not put." — Tryptofish. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:23, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

But that's where it gets complicated. Are "like" and "unlike" prepositions? Note our Wiktionary entry--why is "unlike" in "The brothers are quite unlike each other" an adjective but a preposition in "He walked unlike other men she knew"? And there's more to it, but I have to run and pick up the kids. ;) Drmies (talk) 20:24, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Going out on a verbal limb here, try deleting "each other" from the first example. It still means the same thing. But if you delete "other men she knew" from the second, the sentence becomes meaningless. I take that as evidence that the second sentence uses "unlike" as part of a prepositional phrase, but the first is just an adjective. (And I have to add: Like.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

That's not bad, Tryptofish, but IMO the "take something out" test is overrated. Students try it all too often. In this case that begs the question "unlike what?" "They're quite unlike butter". The thing here is rather that in some constructions we do something similar, but rather than take it out we pretend something was actually taken out: "He's bigger than I [am]". So, since you can add "am" the pronoun should be in the subjective case--they say (I don't buy it.) But apply that to Sandstein's sentence: "This does not prevent you from taking action if, unlike me, you believe it is warranted" --> "This does not prevent you from taking action if, unlike I believe, you believe it is warranted." That's pretty awkward, but not much more awkward than "he's bigger than I am" because no one talks like that--unless they're a foreigner like Sandstein, haha! No, what we have here is something not easily explained by a modern rule of grammar, and if I had my Sweet on me I'd try to confirm a suspicion--that in the Old English (and Germanic in general) this ("ungelic") was simply a word that took a dative--see the "refrain" of "Wulf and Eadwacer". Drmies (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Just to be a pain, I would think unlike is an adverb in "He walked unlike other men she knew". O3000 (talk) 21:13, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

But do adverbs take nouns or clauses as dependents? Hmmm. Drmies (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, if you add in the missing words, “He walked in a manner unlike other men that she knew", I don’t think it’s taking a dependent clause. Worse, you could argue that it’s a conjunction. See [4]. I emailed a grammar-Nazi friend and he goes with adverb. But, I don’t even have a high school diploma, so…. O3000 (talk) 21:55, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I emailed a grammar-Nazi friend and... Damnit, Objective. WP:NOFUCKINGNAZIS is a thing now. Which, if it applies to grammar nazis, means we all have to leave... Okay, nix that, I'm off to write WP:GRAMMARNAZISAREOKAYBUTJUSTBARELYANDDONTPUSHITKAY?. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:03, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, but there are no missing words..."that" is either a relative pronoun or (if you're with Huddleston and Pullum, see English_relative_clauses#That_as_relativizer_instead_of_relative_pronoun) a subordinator; either way it can be omitted. "Dependent" as I used it is not the same thing as in "dependent clause"; the term comes from Dependency grammar. Drmies (talk) 22:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Yep, and I just realized I could easily argue it's an adjective in the above reconstruction. But, one should be able to take any position in a debate. Now, I just have to find another word for N**I to avoid the N**I essay. O3000 (talk) 22:09, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

As the guy who made that essay and linked to it at the barest hint of the word "Nazi", I guess that makes me the Nazi-Nazi. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:14, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, the Nazi’s were more into Ariosophy. Your username more suggests Norse mythology. O3000 (talk) 22:31, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Good point. Though, I do have a nazi symbol in my signature. Best to indef me, just in case. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:11, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps, but who will bell the cat. Besides, you make a lousy Nazi. O3000 (talk) 00:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

To be fair, I make a lousy anything. <scratch, scratch> ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:45, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Meanwhile, back at AE (this grammar stuff is obviously above my level of competence), I do want to make an observation. As a matter of policy, it actually is the case that admins are free to act unilaterally, without the need for consensus first. And in one fish's opinion, for all the time that passed between Drmies' comment and the close, there were no registered objections from other admins, which could have justified unilateral action. I think AE is suffering from death-by-committee. I don't mean this as a criticism or as second-guessing, but more like an observation as well as me venting. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes. And if I had more time and energy I probably would have studied the whole case carefully enough to do something. That's what I meant with "drive-by"--I think I know enough to have a reasonable opinion, but not enough to have such a well-founded opinion that I can unilaterally enact that which I think is right, a decision with longterm effects. But here again you catch me in between things, after dinner, and etc. Volunteer problems. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Quite reasonable. Thanks again! --Tryptofish (talk) 17:46, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

And I note now that the AE has been, sort of, reopened. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:55, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I am rather disappointed about your side comment about me. Do I need to refute it? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm sure you are, Tryptofish, but you want me to call them as I see them, I'm sure. Note that I think that the one remark isn't sufficient to warrant any more attention than I already gave it--but I do think it makes a quite general statement in an area where making general statements has often turned into casting aspersions. Whether you want to refute it is up to you; for me it will go no further. And maybe AGK disagrees with me completely, which is fine with me. Drmies (talk) 20:59, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Point taken. It just wasn't clear to me whether in fact you were saying that you were going to give it "any more attention", because it sounded that way to me. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Well I have to sound and appear tyrannical or I'd be a bad admin. Think of how the real admins sound, like Sandstein and Future Perfect. They're badasses and you don't want to have your dog poop on their lawn when they're watching. Drmies (talk) 21:31, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

That's OK, thanks. I've regained my composure. And I do take the point that you made. Tell that ostrich to stay away from my dog. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

"Only You"

Thanks for protecting Only You (Cheat Codes and Little Mix song) - I left a message on the talk page of one of the editor's previous IP addresses User talk:80.233.39.91 telling them I was going to ask for just that result if they didn't stop their edits. I can't work out if they were trolling, didn't understand how disambiguation pages work on Wikipedia, or genuinely believed that they were the same song. Richard3120 (talk) 02:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Ace of Spades

No reason to add hard rock because of Lemmy talking about rock and roll. ~SML • TP 01:28, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• Yes reason because that's more verification than any of the other genres. Drmies (talk) 01:32, 18 September 2018 (UTC)==

Confused

Drmies as always I welcome your thoughts and input. I am not sure I follow the behavior comment. As to the statement above your post (Does someone need a hug?) I was openly trying to extend an olive branch and lighten the mood. In my mind there was no ill intention. It was also almost ten days ago so again confused as to why someone would now try and get me sanctioned for trying to expel the hostility. Surely there is some misunderstanding and not in need of (please consider this a warning).

I believe edits like this to be a behavioral issue in the same article [5] and this [6] in reference of me by editor Simonm223. How is calling someone (a literally illiterate) ok and not a personal attack and my attempt to lighten the mood a behavioral issue?

If I missed something please enlighten me. My intentions are as always just trying to improve article content with the best sources and experts that can be found by putting in the time doing research. Doing this I believe not only enriches Wiki but myself as well.

I will though from mow make more of a effort to not address any one editor and only speak of specific content. As always your friend -72bikers (talk) 02:59, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• Here too your friend, 72. That comment seemed more like a sneer to me than an olive branch. If I misread it, and I suppose I did, please consider that especially on the internet it is not always easy to convey humor, sarcasm, irony--believe me, I get misread here ALL the time, but of course I blame the others, haha. As for the other diffs--I haven't looked at them or seen them, I think, and it doesn't alter the matter; it just happened that I saw yours. But I will have a look. Take care, Drmies (talk) 15:13, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
• Simonm223, this is really not cool. I know you're talking about content, but I also know that you're really not. Please refrain. Y'all please try to get along--and all of y'all, please be more careful in copyediting, both in article posts and in talk page comments. (I mean just about everyone on those talk pages.) Drmies (talk) 15:15, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• Why are we dredging up three-week old drama here? Simonm223 (talk) 15:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• Because I am an administrator and was asked to look into something? Drmies (talk) 15:45, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

HOW DARE YOU! PackMecEng (talk) 15:54, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

PackMecEng, we've managed to co-exist in complete enmity for quite a while now. Can't we keep it that way? BTW I really don't understand what these editors at the Ford article don't get about listing articles, and I appreciate your good sense there. I'm not keeping an eye on it, I'm just hoping it ends in a reasonable way. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

What is the fun in that?! Because I must destroy you and etc... Yeah I stumbled onto that article and was not so much surprised, but rather disappointed. I made my run on talking and cleaning what I could but past that I think I am about ready to walk away from there. If/when it pops up on AFD after whatever happens in the senate I will see how it is and vote then. Other than that they can piss in their sandbox as much as they want. I come here for fun gosh darn it and they cannot ruin that for me! As to the listing on the article, I think that is a case of well I found it online so it must be notable. PackMecEng (talk) 21:44, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

We'll see what happens, as a famous man once said. I'd love to stay and chat but I'm doing online training to do online teaching, so I can be worse than I already am. At least I'll put our multi-virtual learning environment content education generator device to good use. Wouldn't want to waste all that money. Drmies (talk) 22:00, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh gzz they still use that!? A few years back (well five years ago I think?) I took some classes at the local community college on supply chain and blackboard was where we had to turn in all our homework. I hope it has gotten better since then. PackMecEng (talk) 22:05, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Drmies, thank you for your comments. I to understand that in text things can be easily misread. I can see how it might look like sarcasm and admittedly humor is not my forte, but it was not a attempt to belittle someone as shown by the contrast. As I am sure you can see it is a very controversial subject. It was meant more to lighten thing up in a attempt to make it seem not so serious all the time. This was done in a effort to bring some kind of compromise to what should have been just a minor issue. Regards -72bikers (talk) 02:34, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

(talk page watcher) (edit conflict) I recall having had a conversation about this comment already, which is the edit summary to this edit, but at the moment I can't find that conversation. I recall remarking that a better word for it was "incomprehensible" or something like that, but it was indeed a mess, and 72bikers was later blocked for their activity on that page. At any rate, it does seem very off the mark to drop this comment out of context on an admin's page almost a full month after the fact, it kind of seems like score-settling. It would be best if all of our next edits were a substantial contribution to an article. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:49, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Tamil Language

Hey, it wasn't Arabic transliteration but it was actually Tamil written in the Arwi script so please undo the changes that you made to the page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by AJamal122 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Sodhi Bala

Anyone want to try to fix this? I'm being accused of vandalism. I'm bowing out. I normally don't even touch place articles, and I rarely gut them, but this one struck a nerve. BTW, the one reference I removed doesn't seem to support anything.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:23, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• Do we have a prize for worst article in the world? Drmies (talk) 15:46, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• We have "prizes" for high quality articles (how many featured articles are there?), but none for the obverse. Unfortunately, I think there'd be too many candidates. Maybe we could call them fractured articles. Thanks for your help.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:02, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

{{pakistan-geo-stub}} Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:04, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I know I should have stubbed it but that would have required searching for the right stub and I was lazy. Now I'm not touching it; after all, I'm a "total dick".--Bbb23 (talk) 16:06, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Huh? I thought I was the total dick. You're not taking my dickness from me, Bbb. And let's see if we have a prize for User:Galobtter. Drmies (talk) 17:16, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

All I hear from this is that Bbb23 stole your dick Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:24, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

OK if we're going to be dicks, I'm going to get all pedantic about punctuation and say that "Galobter is not my dick". OK, we should drop the dick talk. Which reminds me, I haven't seen that lingam vandal in a while. Drmies (talk) 17:26, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Boo hiss, Galobtter, making it into a real article with a picture and everything. Who do you think you are?--Bbb23 (talk) 17:28, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Who's got the penis now? Drmies (talk) 17:29, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't know how you found it, but that article is a fascinating read.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:46, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

All this chatter reminded me of that article, which I read years ago. We have an article on the topic: Koro (medicine), and there's this article. Drmies (talk) 17:49, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

The Atlantic article is also an interesting read. It'd be fun to discuss the theories with some of my friends, but, given they have some of these "syndromes", I have a feeling I'd get tossed out on my ear.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:52, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Improvement! Not on my Wikipedia Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:37, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• That's interesting. Now I know my friend's a suspected "penis thief"; can't wait to tell her. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 17:45, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Cut-and-paste translations

I have difficulties with some cut-and-paste translation of our friend Jzsj: Jérôme Nadal and Juan de Castillo (Jesuit). In both cases I have the nasty idea that he just copied the text and translated it verbatim, without even bothering to check (and fully translate) the sources. (The second one has a clearly wrong title) Are the tiny templates on the talk page enough to satisfy the licenses? The Banner talk 19:12, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• Well, that's not a nasty idea, and the process is correct--yes, that template will do. As for the sources--well, sources don't have to be translated because sources don't have to be in English. One of our Portuguese editors typically translates the titles of newspaper articles, which is a nice courtesy (and there's a parameter for it in the citation templates), but not required. As for source checking, yeah, well, I don't know. We're supposed to do it, of course. Drmies (talk) 20:08, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Copyright revdel

Hey Drmies,

I'm not sure if you're watching Bob the IPs page but they stumbled upon a huuuugggeee copyright mess at Louise Hulland that needs to be revdel [7]. Diannaa seems to be very busy and you were the first active admin I stumbled upon. Mind lending a hand? HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 00:58, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

• No, I don't watch his page (I don't want to egg him on), just his edits. The man should be painting, not editing Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 00:59, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
• Alright, it's done. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 01:06, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks a lot . HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 01:09, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Question

Was this edit made in error? – Muboshgu (talk) 03:44, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

• Shit, I conflicted with you and copied the wrong paragraph... Drmies (talk) 04:22, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
  • That's what I suspected. Pobody's nerfect. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:26, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Help

User I was told to not interact with is stalking and reverting my edits. [8] [9].--MaranoFan (talk) 14:24, 20 September 2018 (UTC) Also tag unblocking admin @Alex Shih:.--MaranoFan (talk) 14:28, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

• Wait. You were blocked, then you socked and got reverted, and now you're back. Hmm. OK, please give me a link for this "was told not to interact with"--thanks. Drmies (talk) 14:29, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

MF, look at your talk page and the message I have left there. Look at the edit summaries and the reasoning for the reversions and request that you start a talk page discussion before making huge, blanket reversions to your preferred version of articles. I'm not stalking you, these articles are all on my watchlist and have been for months, years. Please don't go this direction. Make the best use of your unblock and stick around this time, please? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 14:30, 20 September 2018 (UTC)