:::“The Guardian article and the note from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine)”
:::“The Guardian article and the note from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine)”
:::The Guardian is just one newspaper, admittedly a fairly influential one, but its usage is simply dwarfed by all the other English language newspapers that use “Kiev”. As for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine)”, the policies of any Ukrainian government representatives are irrelevant to English usage. The change in usage at London Luton Airport is significant, but does not outweigh all the other usages of “Kiev”.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 23:39, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
:::The Guardian is just one newspaper, admittedly a fairly influential one, but its usage is simply dwarfed by all the other English language newspapers that use “Kiev”. As for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine)”, the policies of any Ukrainian government representatives are irrelevant to English usage. The change in usage at London Luton Airport is significant, but does not outweigh all the other usages of “Kiev”.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 23:39, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
::::The majority of English speakers in the U.S. (the largest English-speaking country, of course) don't read the Guardian. The only major U.S. newspaper that has switched to Kyiv is the Miami Herald and it isn't even near the top of the list. The New York Times and Los Angeles Times both use Kiev. And the most popular travel sites (Expedia, Travelocity, Orbitz) send travelers to "Kiev, Ukraine (KBP-Borispol Intl.)" or "Kiev, Ukraine (IEV-All Airports)". The average American never visits a government web site to see "Kyiv". --[[User:TaivoLinguist|Taivo]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist|talk]]) 17:24, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
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This is just more of the same inability of the the Ukrainian government to understand that 1) the forms used in other languages are neither "mistakes" nor "transliterations from Russian", they are distinct words in those languages and 2) regardless of point 1 such things are beyond the power of the Ukrainian government to control. --Khajidha (talk) 14:39, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2019
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~ Amory(u • t • c)11:30, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2019
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Russians changed most of ukrainian city names to their own russian names. Like Kyiv to Kiev, Rivne to Rovno (there is the article with that russian name Rovno Ghetto), Kharkiv to Kharkov, etc. They even changed original city names to names of russian leaders, like Luhansk to Voroshilovgrad, Mariupol to Zhdanov, etc.
But you can't deny that Kyi is the founder of KYIv City.
Like Romulus is the founder of Rome City. By the way, the russian name for Rome is Rim and you will never accept it in your language, because English has Latin roots from Ancient Rome. :)
I understand, that the root of the issue with KIEV, that most of you, people, had no any imagine, that Ukraine even exists 'till the recent time, because the whole territory was the Great Mother-Russia in eyes of foreigners, despite that Beatles "Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out" in the Back in the U.S.S.R. song.
Nonetheless, Wikipedia has changed easily many of ukrainian city names to their proper names, like Kharkov to Kharkiv, Nikolayev to Mykolaiv, Kremenchug to Kremenchuk, Chernigov to Chernihiv, etc.
And why there are so many speculations and insinuations for Kyiv ...
The Guardian article and the note from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine) are just examples that something has been restored to it natural state and Wikipedia doesn't want to accept the truth.
English Wikipedia is indeed not a propaganda tool, in particular, not a Ukrainian propaganda tool, and this is exactly the reason the name of the article is Kiev.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:27, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I hope, you can point out the place for the propaganda in KYIV word and explain the spick and span Wikipedia renaming for other UKRAINIAN cities? --Victor sunsay —Preceding undated comment added 12:33, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your whole post above is propaganda. What we use is the most common name in English, and, absent that, we use an Ukrainian name properly romanized. Ukrainian government is not in a position to determine the usage of names in English. It can make illegal using certain names, and this could have legal effects in Ukraine (to be precise, in the part of Ukraine controlled by the central government) but not elsewhere. Concerning the most common usage, we had once this discussion and found out that most names of Ukrainian localities have no common usage (hence Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Kremenchuk), but Kiev and Odessa do, and we are using their common names in English, despite having every couple of weeks nationalist Ukrainians explaining us what names we should be using,--Ymblanter (talk) 13:05, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, finnaly, tovarisch, the sutuation is clarifying. So, those are "evil Ukrainian nationalists" ... I have no questions then, Ymblanter. Victor sunsay —Preceding undated comment added 13:23, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably you think I am Russian, you hate Russians, and you are trying to attack me on that basis. This is by itself blockable, but you are clearly wasting your time because I am not even Russian.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:06, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good job, Ymblanter! You have requested to delete the screenshot from your OPEN profile: "The user created this to facilitate personal attacks on me in the English Wikipedia". That was really unbiased and clear action. :) User Abzeronow (without any doubts) eagerly did the "Speedy delete". Don't I understand something?
Victor sunsay (talk) 14:24, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
I want to inform other participants that Ymblanter person is from Russia and tries to confuse English-speaking contributors with politics and insinuations about Ukraine, because his own Russian Federation country does act of direct aggression against Ukraine. The crucial point for understanding why such people so resist to Kyiv renaming is that their leader Vladimir Putin insists that ukrainians do not exist and Kyiv is a russian city. --Victor sunsay[reply]
Ymblanter isn't from Russia. Neither am I. I've lived in Ukraine, western Ukraine, and I'm married to a Ukrainian, so I know the linguistic situation in that country very well. But the English Wikipedia is governed not by passions from nationalists of any stripe--Ukrainian or Russian. And as the English Wikipedia, we are governed by common English usage. For the vast majority of locations in Ukraine there is no common usage because the places are rarely, if ever, mentioned in English language sources. Thus "Kharkov" > "Kharkiv", "Dniepropetrovsk" > "Dnipro", etc. That is not true for "Kiev", "Chernobyl", and "Odessa" which are firmly entrenched and regularly mentioned in English. This is regularly checked in reliable English sources and the usage of "Kiev", "Chernobyl", and "Odessa" has not changed in the last ten years. There are English common forms for these three names and they simply cannot be changed based on the whims of the government in Kyiv and an act of the Rada. I suggest you expend your passions elsewhere for the good of your country and not in terrorizing Wikipedia with your personal attacks on other editors. --Taivo (talk) 14:41, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. So that was me who pulled out "arguments" with the "ukrainian nationalists", the "Ukrainian government is not in a position" the "part of Ukraine controlled by the central government" and other stuff to "terrorizing Wikipedia with MY personal attacks on other editors"? I have tried to talk with arguments and without any mentions of other editors. There is a screenshot from Ymblanter profile that clarifies situation why he is so excitable about "ukrainian nationalists" in the ENGLISH segment of Wikipedia. Victor sunsay —Preceding undated comment added 14:58, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Victor sunsay, I strongly recommend you to calm down, to stop commenting on other users (it is not a good habit, which may lead to serious consequences), and, importantly, to think about the following. The English names of almost all important European cities (Prague, the Hague, Munich, Vienna, Warsaw, Moscow, Rome, Lisbon, Belgrade, and many others) are different from their names in local languages (Praha, Den Haag, München, Wien, Warszawa, Moskva, Roma, Lisboa, Beograd, accordingly). Have you ever thought why? The reason is that these words became English words, the names of those cities became an inseparable part of the culture of the Anglophone worlds. It is well known that in any language, important words are more resistant to changes than less important ones. Thus English irregular verbs (which are archaic forms that came from the Anglo-Saxon predecessor of English) are preserved only for the most important (frequently used) verbs, whereas all others converted to the standard "-ed" form.
The very fact that "Kiev" resists to modern nationalistic trends is an indication that the name of this city became a part of English culture. I think Ukrainians should be proud of that: it makes "Kiev" a full member of the constellation of important European cities (like those I listed above). In that respect, it is not important whether English "Kiev" originated from the Russian word or not: it really does not matter.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:13, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
“But you can't deny that Kyi is the founder of KYIv City. Like Romulus is the founder of Rome City. By the way, the russian name for Rome is Rim and you will never accept it in your language, because English has Latin roots from Ancient Rome. :)”
You do realize that your example completely contradicts the point you are trying to make, right? If the Russian name for the capital of Italy can be a word that does not have the letter sequence “Rom” in it, then the English name for the capital of Ukraine does not have to have the letter sequence “Kyi” in it.
“English-speaking person will never accept russian name for New Zealand: Novaya Zehlandiya, or Kentookie instead of Kentucky”
Here you confuse several different things. No, a native English speaker would not accept the usage of the Russian name for Kentucky when speaking English. If speaking (or writing) Russian, no one would object to using the Russian name for any place. But neither of these situations is exactly parallel to the case at hand. The English Wikipedia uses the English name for this city, but you object to it because it is etymologically linked more closely to Russian than to Ukrainian. I do not know what the Ukrainian name for any city in my country is, but I can see no valid reason for me to object to the forms of those names, whether they are derived from the English form, the Russian form, the Chinese form, or even just based on a random draw from a bag of Scrabble tiles. Note: "no valid reason" based solely on language of derivation. I could object if the Ukrainian name for a city was a derogatory term. Example: Ukrainians could object to English naming their capital something like "Shitburg".
“I understand, that the root of the issue with KIEV, that most of you, people, had no any imagine, that Ukraine even exists 'till the recent time, because the whole territory was the Great Mother-Russia in eyes of foreigners”
Insulting the entire Anglosphere is hardly likely to help your cause.
“Nonetheless, Wikipedia has changed easily many of ukrainian city names to their proper names, like Kharkov to Kharkiv, Nikolayev to Mykolaiv, Kremenchug to Kremenchuk, Chernigov to Chernihiv, etc.” and “The notorious Wikipedia's "collaborative consensus" gets along smoothly with other UKRAINIAN cities name correction (Kharkov to Kharkiv, Nikolayev to Mykolaiv, Kremenchug to Kremenchuk, Chernigov to Chernihiv, etc.). There is obvious discrepancy in an approach.”
Paul Siebert has explained this very well. We do not follow a blanket approach of “directly transliterate all names using the same standards”, we ask first if there is a commonly used form in English. If there is, we use it regardless of its source language. If there is not, then we utilize standard transliteration rules.
“The Guardian article and the note from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine)”
The Guardian is just one newspaper, admittedly a fairly influential one, but its usage is simply dwarfed by all the other English language newspapers that use “Kiev”. As for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Ukraine)”, the policies of any Ukrainian government representatives are irrelevant to English usage. The change in usage at London Luton Airport is significant, but does not outweigh all the other usages of “Kiev”.--Khajidha (talk) 23:39, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of English speakers in the U.S. (the largest English-speaking country, of course) don't read the Guardian. The only major U.S. newspaper that has switched to Kyiv is the Miami Herald and it isn't even near the top of the list. The New York Times and Los Angeles Times both use Kiev. And the most popular travel sites (Expedia, Travelocity, Orbitz) send travelers to "Kiev, Ukraine (KBP-Borispol Intl.)" or "Kiev, Ukraine (IEV-All Airports)". The average American never visits a government web site to see "Kyiv". --Taivo (talk) 17:24, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 11:30, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:31, 22 April 2019 (UTC)