Talk:Australo-Melanesian: Difference between revisions

Archives
Untitled December 2005 – February 2007 March 2005 – April 2007

Picture

What's up with removing the pictures? You may argue that the term i outdated, but the images were produced back when the term was used, and are therefore valid illustrations for it. Also, Fred, please at least give a reason for your edits, and bring it to the talk page before reverting.Funkynusayri 03:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It does not use the term Australoid. It presents a caption and gives weight to the idea that people represented are a type. How would you categorise me? I am finding this very offensive, why the abiding interest in racism and antagonism. Please remove it and try to improve something. There is a word for this. Fred ☻ 03:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Please, how are you relevant to this discussion? This is an article about a term which is very rarely used today, obsolete if you will, but it was once in use, and the illustrations show what the term referred to. Please come up with some good arguments for removing these images, or they stay. And please don't remove sourced statements. Funkynusayri 03:35, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

• Quit making baseless accusations. The first source refers to physical anthropology in general, and therefore includes Australoids. Anyhow, the sentence says that racial classification is disputed, not the term Australoid, so your current objection is irrelevant. Footnote five clearly mentions the term on the other hand, so I don't see why you want to remove that. As for the pictures, the first one shows what the term refers to, and the second picture does too. You better come up with some better arguments, so far they aren't convincing. Or let's at least wait for a third party, even as such has already made an opinion. Your constant mention of yourself in this discussion makes me believe that you have something personal involved, which would make your arguments POV. Funkynusayri 03:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The highly outdated book called "The living races of mankind : a popular illustrated account" uses a three race system to describe the world. The word "Australoid" does not appear in this book [1]. It is original research to assume these photographs show members of the Australiod race, as the book they are taken from says otherwise. So the pictures have no connection with this article. Out of interest, I have examined the text from the book and it says Aboriginal Australians "are mainly a pure-bred race and if so, there can be no hesitation in classing them as of Caucasian origin, and allied to the Veddas of Ceylon and the Toalas of Celebres" Travelmite (talk) 17:53, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Stereotype

• Stereotype

edit summary: "these photos are stereotypical, hence they are not appropriate". Err, that's exactly why they are appropriate. They represent the stereotypical (or perhaps archetypical) image of the Australoid. Paul B 13:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Fred. this is why the terms were not in use. Pictures in these articles are best avoided. If they are to be used the editors should make the effort to ensure that the pictures do not cause offense or controversy. This is the only way that a picture can have a sustained presence in an article.Muntuwandi 13:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

So your main argument is pretty much based on the idea that censorship should be implemented on Wikipedia. I find that pretty hard to take seriously. Again, we have pictures of Muhammad, erect penises, swastikas, but we can't have a picture of a bunch of people. Strange. I'll direct your attention to this again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_censoredFunkynusayri 14:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Not a soapbox either. Fred ☻ 14:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

• Heh. I want to add relevant content which will help the understanding of the article, whereas you want to leave it out because you believe it might offend someone, and apparently for personal reasons, since you keep bringing yourself up with the "how would you classify me" gibberish. Are you an Australian Aboriginal? Funkynusayri 14:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

there is already an article for indigenous australians. You know that you cannot sneak your photos into that article so you look for the lesser known article. These photos are old and the caption says australian types not australoid.Muntuwandi 19:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Image:LA2-NSRW-1-0178.jpg|thumb|right|Examples of Australian types in a lexicon from 1914, which were then believed to belong to the Australoid race.

• I know that I cannot what? It never occurred to me, because some of the types are not from Australia itself. So please quit your ridiculous assumptions. For the record, the picture in question is on the right. Don't remove it from the talk page. Funkynusayri 23:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Here is the page from the work in question.[2] There is no mention of Australoid in the article. I am intrigued by your research though, I will keep in touch. Fred ☻ 10:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Paul Barlow

I used the following policies in my edit summaries to justify my edits: WP:NOR, WP:TOPIC and WP:BETTER. First, the better article consists of a short article which my version faithfully demonstrates. My version is straight to the point. My version says Australoid is disputed, based on skulls and variously refers to South Asians, Southeast Asians, Pacific Islanders, American Indians and indigenous Austrlians. Much of the bulk of the previous version consisted of off topic racial classifications of non-Australoids in famous peoples' racial classification systems. This is not those anthropologists' articles, so the inclusion of their non-Australoid ideas are off topic. Although probably verifiable, the statement that the Australoid race is discredited by genetics and that the Gond people are Australoid is uncited original research. I don't know about the appropriateness of the picture. The person who uploaded it tried adding similar pictures to the other racial articles, but other editors claimed they didn't actually say, Australoid, Negroid, etc. in the original source. The picture may be original research in this article.--^DarkTea© 14:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Utter dross and misrepresentation of policy as usual. No article is better short - that's a stub, and the policy is to expand stubs. Specific sentences are better in concise rather than prolix form, but there is no policy to simply cut out great chunks of relevant information. The picture is clearly not original research as it illustates the topic. Paul B 14:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Stubs aren't good but shorter articles are better, since they make the article concise. The picture is synthesis if it says that it represents Australians and another source says Australians are Australoid.----^DarkTea© 16:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The picture simply illustrates what was meant by the term. You know this, but you prefer to engage in wikilawyering rather than including material that informs the reader and add meaninf=fulk content. All models of the category Austaloids include native Australians. An article is best which clearly expains and discusses the content for the reader rather than one that tries to repress or hide information. Paul B 17:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The pictures are taken from a 1902 book which is presently online about the races of mankind. Anyone can check that these books, despite being from a period which believed in scientific racism and directly describing the races as biological, do not use the term Australoid. These >100 year old book describe the pictures as related to other races. Australoid was never a useful theory, as can be shown from books 100 years ago, yet alone today. Travelmite (talk) 09:52, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

The first Americans?

Skulls comparable to Australoid peoples have been found in the Americas, leading to speculation that peoples with similarities to modern Australoids may have been the earliest occupants of the continent. These have been termed by some Pre-Siberian American Aborigines.

Skulls comparable to Australoid peoples have been found in the Americas, leading to speculation that peoples with phenotypical similarities to modern Australoids may have been the earliest occupants of the continent. These have been termed by some Pre-Siberian American Aborigines. These early Americans left signs of settlement in Brazil which may date back as many as 50,000 years ago.

One of earliest skulls recovered by archaeologists is a specimen scientists have named Lucia.[3] According to archaeologist Walter Neves of the University of São Paulo, detailed measurements of the skull revealed that Lucia revealed that she "was anything but mongoloid." Further, when a forensic artist reconstructed Lucia's face, "the result was surprising: 'It ha[d] all the features of a negroid face"

Scientists believe these Australoid first Americans later were displaced relatively recently by peoples with more brachycephalic profiles, projecting zygomas and monolids (cold climate morphology) approximately 7,000 to 9,000 years ago. A small number of peoples living in Tierra del Fuego are speculated to be a possible remnant of these earliest known Americans.

“ The pre-European Fuegeans, who lived stone age-style lives until this century, show hybrid skull features which could have resulted from intermarrying between mongoloid and negroid peoples. Their rituals and traditions also bear some resemblance to the ancient rock art in Brazil--BBC News, 1999. ”

I moved the section here. A number of close exmainations hane not revealed any connection to the term, it is not mentioned in these refrences, it is original research, fugitive from other pages and deletion discussions. There is much more in there, that should also be moved. Cygnis insignis 12:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering why this was removed. The sources clearly mention the skulls found were "Australoid" or "Negroid." I'm reinserting it. deeceevoice (talk) 18:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Undone. They do not. cygnis insignis 09:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You show your usual levels of intellectual dishonesty. Your fantasy that "Australian" in this context does not imply Australoid is unsustainable, and many sources can be found that contadict you. Restored with source. Paul B (talk) 12:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand how the Australoids could have or would have had the advanced nautical technology like the Polynesians to enable them to migrate all the way across the Pacific Ocean. Has anyone seen any references about how they could have gotten to South America? (It is known that some Polynesians traveled to South America because they brought sweet potatos from there.) Keraunos (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that it is necessarily implied that they were migrating from Australasia, just that early inhabitants of the Americas were morphologically similar to modern Australoids. Paul B (talk) 07:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I see. After they reached Australia 50,000 years ago by migrating from Africa along the now submerged continental shelf, they could have continued along the now submerged continental shelf up the east coast of Asia and into the Americas. That is a very interesting theory! Keraunos (talk) 04:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Not unlikely. See Pericúes and Fuegians, both now extinct. If Australoids could migrate from India to Australia and probably Japan (see Ainu), why is it surprising if they got to the Americas? Early humans dispersed all over the planet minus Antarctica. Australoids, Amerindians, Na-Dene people, Vikings... lol, Colombus didn't "discover" no nothing. 12:52, 23 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.109.230.96 (talk)

I really doubt the substance of this. There's no DNA evidence; just dubious anthropometry of a single skeleton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman

"Neves' conclusions have been challenged by research done by anthropologists Rolando Gonzalez-Jose, Frank Williams and William Armelagos who have shown in their studies that the cranio-facial variability could just be due to genetic drift and other factors affecting cranio-facial plasticity in Native Americans."

Some of these articles do not mention Australoid, so they have been removed. The argument above is that the word Australian means being Australoid. During the period of scientific racism, Australians were thought to be a range of things and it was rare that Australoid was used. Just because someone writes a story about Australians in the 21st century doesn't mean they adopted any particular race theory of the 19th century. Travelmite (talk) 09:59, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Dishonesty

This page has become a joke because of what can only be described as outright lying by some editors. The very first sentence stated that this classification is no longer used except by "racialists" (a highly misleading word) and was supported by a footnote from a page written by someone who supported the use of such classifications. The preposterous claim that Huxley abandoned his classification system after a "peer review" is supported by reference to a website which discusses the evolution of Huxley's views about whether or not physical differences correspond to innate mental differences, a view which in his later life Huxley came to question. This in no way implies that he rejected his system of classification. Indeed the very citation is referring to the actual article in which the classification is laid out! The attempt to delete the section on the first Americans is even more absurd. Nina G. Jablonski's The First Americans: The Pleistocene Colonization of the New World discusses this in some detail. It rejects the argument that Australoid colonisation took place, but uses the term on p137-8. The terms Australoid, Australian and Negroid are all used by Neve, the principal source for the argument that Turner in Jablonski's book discusses. Even more ridiculous is the fact that the real history and debates about the meaning of the term are obscured by the endless POV editorialising and deletion mania. What we need is a clear layout of the history of the concept, the arguments used to support it as a model of racial differences and the arguments that have been developed to criticise it. Ironically there is almost no criticism in the article as it currently stands and no attempt to explain the concept in a meaningful way. Remember, what we are supposed to be doing is building an encyclopedia that explains things. Paul B (talk) 12:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• All the race articles are jokes, and they'll continue to be watered down whenever they are expanded. No one keeps track of them apart from the people who just want to delete them all. Funkynusayri (talk) 16:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggest you look at actual scientific papers using Australoid and add content from them. Many or most of the recent ones are by Indian scientists. --JWB (talk) 22:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

We should note the gross misuse of scientific papers listed here. There are papers listed that don't mention the term Australoid at all. There are papers that only mention Australoid as a debunked concept. There are papers that are extremely old and outdated. The comments defending this page are breaking wikipedia polices at all levels. 43.243.12.31 (talk) 11:20, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes. I found the pictures used from books from 1900's years old didn't say Australoid, but described Aboriginal Australians as Caucasian. The map from Meyers describes them as Negroid. Travelmite (talk) 19:05, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Veddas

Corrections/Comments: Balgir (2004) has mismatched the Proto-Australoid and Australoid racial designations. The former should refer to the Gond, Kondh, Kissan, Oraon, Paraja and Pentia Halva tribes; the latter should comprise the Bhumiz, Gadaba, Juang, Kharia, Koda, Kolha, Mahali, Mirdha, Munda, Santal and Saora tribes. Balgir should follow classical usage.

The Veddas are a Caucasoid aboriginal hunter people of southern India and Ceylon. The racial constitution of the Veddas is Indo-European (Vedda is Sinhalese for "hunter;" Sinhalese is an Indo-European language), Proto-Australoid, and Australoid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cevene (talk • contribs)

Language and race do not correspond very well. Sudanese and Syrians speak Arabic, where as most Sudanese are African in origin, Syrians are Caucasian in racial type. Similarly, Veddas along with many aboriginal groups in the world speak the language of the predominant settler communities. Kanatonian (talk) 22:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Prederite Tense?

How come everything is in past tense? Is this subspecies extinct?69.226.111.151 (talk) 03:56, 13 December 2009 (UTC) I just found out that this is not a subspecies. Im sorry if anyone was offended69.226.111.151 (talk) 20:11, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

What sourced or unsourced evidence is there for the claim that the man depicted in the second picture was from Yemen?

EIN (talk) 11:41, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

According to the file, it's an illustration in a book by Carleton Coon, who states that the man is from Yemen. The point, I suppose, is that he does not look like a typical Yemeni. It's used to illustrate Coon's theories about racial types and their histories. Paul B (talk) 15:18, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Further research into the file history suggests that the claim that he's Yemeni was added by an IP some years after the file was uploaded [4]. It may be accurate, or it may be baloney. Paul B (talk) 15:23, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, it appears that Coon did publish a photograph of an "Australoid" man from Yemen in his book The Living Races of Man, 1965. The picture can be seen here [5]. But the person in the photo included here does not seem to be Yemeni. The confusion may be from the juxtaposition of images on this website [6]. Paul B (talk) 15:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

onde que luzia tem cranio australoide? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.64.9.219 (talk) 03:56, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

australoides e negrilhos são sub-troncos negroides a exemplo de congoides e resto a única razão para a separação é politica o pigmoide as vezes é separado para levanter a auto-estima do congoide que o genocidou o que não deixa de ser patetico sendo o pigmoide o negroide original — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.64.9.219 (talk) 04:00, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

DNA studies?

Everything in this article that describes this "race" is based on very old descriptions (suborbital brow ridges, etc.), but nothing modern including DNA studies. Is this distinction even supported by modern science? Kortoso (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

This is a page where edits seem to defend a archaic, unscientific concept. This page is entirely unreliable and indefensible. But it's a good example of how racial concepts perpetuate. See earlier comments. 43.243.12.31 (talk) 11:25, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Obsolete theory?

Add Category:Obsolete scientific theories?

Kortoso (talk) 16:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes 43.243.12.31 (talk) 11:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

There are ample sources which show that this term is outdated, including the Oxford dictionary. An objector to this said "term still used in studies today, such as by Wlkenson, synonymous with or related to 'Veddoid', 'Australasian', 'Australo-Melanesian' and 'Negrito' and Australoid or similar terms, such as Veddoid and Australo-Melanesian are still used in academic literature; nothing in soures about "offense", nor about it being "outdated"' in fact, its been supported by genetics linking Negritos, Papuans, Aus Aborigines, Andamans, and southern Indians who have these features." There are no recent sources for these claims, and just because a word exists in a book from 1985, this does not refute the referenced source accurately describing the term as outdated or offensive. At present the Travelmite (talk) 15:43, 9 July 2018 (UTC). We can list the existing plus two more references which describe Australoid as outdated:

• The Oxford dictionary is quite clear [7]
• Black, Sue; Ferguson, Eilidh (2011) Forensic Anthropology: 2000 to 2010 Taylor and Francis Group. p. 127.[8] "[Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid] and the Australian Group ("Australoid"). The rather outdated names of all but one of these groups were originally derived from geography ... The terms Caucasoid and Caucasian do not have the same oppressive, persecutory connotations as the other terms and so are less likely to cause offense."
• Taylor J. Kieser J. (2015) Forensic Odontology: Principles and Practice page 337[9] "Worldwide ancestral groups where traditionally known as Caucasoid, Australoid, Mongoloid [etc. These] so-called major racial groups have become outdated and replaced by descriptions of people as originating from particular geographic regions."
• Barrett, S. (2009) Anthropology: A Student's Guide to Theory and Method[10] "An attempt was made to classify the population of the world into phenotypes (for example Negroid, Mongoloid, Australoid, and Caucasoid), employing observable criteria such as skin colour and hair types. A great deal of mischief was done by these attempts ... Today most physical anthropologists have abandoned classifications based on phenotype." Travelmite (talk) 17:28, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Australoid race. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070612085927/http://anthro.palomar.edu/tutorials/pglossary.htm to http://anthro.palomar.edu/tutorials/pglossary.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070612085927/http://anthro.palomar.edu/tutorials/pglossary.htm to http://anthro.palomar.edu/tutorials/pglossary.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:45, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Hidden comments within the article

The following comments are hidden in the article for some reason:

• !--the "-oid" terms remain in use in perfectly respectable academic literature, notably in Indian English and in forensic anthroplogy, but it seems they have been deemed unacceptable in US English and are therefore purged from Wikipedia, but also increasingly avoided by academics. It may be advisable to just use the synonyms deemed acceptable in the US instead of insisting on "Wikipedia is not American English only"--

Travelmite (talk) 19:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Irrelevant section

This whole section seems to use modern genetic ideas, with no reference to 19th century race categories. Also there is a link to a online forum, which is not valid as a source:

A 2006 CFSL research article which assessed "3522 individuals belonging to 54 (23 belonging to the Austroasiatic, 18 to Dravidian, 7 to Tibeto-Burman and 24 to Indo-European linguistic groups) endogamous Indian populations, representing all major ethnic, linguistic and geographic groups" for genetic variations to support such classifications found no conclusive evidence. It further summed that "the absence of genetic markers to support the general clustering of population groups based on ethnic, linguistic, geographic or socio-cultural affiliations" undermines the broad groupings based on such affiliations that exist in population genetic studies and forensic databases. Australoid components present through Indian Subcontinent and Southeast Asia is genetically closest to Negrito Andamanese Islanders though still divergent however some Indians also have genetic links with Australian Aborigenes, though mixed with Caucasoid or Mongoloid genes as well. Travelmite (talk) 17:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

You continue to pretend that this article is somehow about 19th century "race categories". It is not. This is just the origin of the term. This article is about anthropology, 19th century, 20th century and 21st century. The fact that some of the results of the 19th century may be outdated is no grounds on which to claim that the entire topic is outdated. Fair enough on the "forum" comment, of course the actual research should be cited, not journalism, and not online forums. --dab (𒁳) 10:18, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

References

The article is a race category, it says so in the title and in the category Category:Historical_definitions_of_race. Information above not based on reliable sources and contradict sources from linked on this page and the article page. You've including a reflist-talk, but seems not in support. Please refer to Wikipedia:Core_content_policies. Travelmite (talk) 22:31, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Debate within physical anthropology on social implications of pejorative terms

As per references in the main body, this outdated classification has common origins with racist/pejorative terms. Physical anthropologists classify skulls in relation to ancestry and Australoid was one of the classifications discussed, however the anthropology field has adopted better and more accurate ways to discuss hereditary differences in human variation with geographical correlation. Material from living persons exists that omits any explanation of the social implications of physical anthropology ancestry classification. If source material is taken out of context and/or presented in a way that implies support for pejorative use of terms, then it wouldn't just be bias, but also fall under Wikipedia policy on how we treat living persons WP:BLP. Travelmite (talk) 05:46, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, modern anthropology does have, and does make use of, better methods than just craniology. This doesn't mean that the term suddenly ceases to be valid. Why all the harping on "race" when the concept is in perfectly scholarly use? If you are interested in discussing "social implications", you are free to do so, but please take care not to interfere with the coverage of anthropological and archaeogenetic research.

I am sorry if this sounds rude, but you do not understand WP:BLP. And I cannot parse "Material from living persons exists that omits any explanation of the social implications of physical anthropology ancestry classification". I have become really tired by editors who pretend to be against racism, but who have nothing to do but make our articles on anthropology all about racism. Please feel free to cover racism, based on academic references, to your heart's content, but please do so without interfering with other editors who wish to cover anthropology, not racism. --dab (𒁳) 09:33, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

The word "interfere" appears several times in the above comments. Please refer WP:OWN before further discussion. Travelmite (talk) 22:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Anonymous user

There is an anonymous user who repeatedly makes the same edits, to stop presenting information available in any modern anthropological text about the current status of this concept. It is likely to be the same person who was blocked by an administrator a few months ago. They have a IP based user name: 2601:CB:8200:15B6:98E2:EF2F:776C:A01F. These can be reverted as soon as they occur. Travelmite (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

WP:NAME

While I would continue to insist, here as at Mongoloid, that the "-oid" suffix has not pejorative implications whatsoever, I recognize that it is certainly so perceived among non-anthropologists, apparently primarily in the US. Since language on Wikipedia is heavily dominated by US English anyway, it may make sense to move this away from the faux-controversial "-oid" name to what appears to be more common in US literature today, Australo-Melanesian.

The problem is, however, that "Australoid" is far more common than Australo-Melanesian (about 30k vs. 2k hits on google books). It seems to me that Australo-Melanesian was mostly introduced in recent decades just to avoid this very debate. It's just a label, after all, and the article should focus on the concept instead.

I will continue to dispute that the term "Australoid" on its own is in any way objectively pejorative, as it continues to be used in perfectly scholarly literature, but I will concede, of course, that "some commentators" have claimed it has such connotations.

--dab (𒁳) 10:14, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Reviewing terminology further, I find that "Australo-Melanesian" is clearly favoured in recent academic literature. "Australoid" has more hits because the term is much older, obviously, but it seems that over the last 20 years, it has been largely replaced by "Australo-Melanesian". This appears to be an effect of the "anti-oid-suffix sentiment". Documenting attitudes towards this Greek-derived suffix would be a task for Wiktionary, or perhaps an -oid page on Wikipedia, for our purposes here, I would suggest that the ancestry group is today best known as "Australo-Melanesians". Matter-of-factly scholarly usage of this term in recent literature on dental morphology etc. rules out any possibility that the term is (a) derogatory, (b) non-scholarly or (c) non-notable. "Australoid race" is simply what this group used to be called prior to 1960 or so, before "race" became a politically charged word. This is no excuse to turn this page into a discussion of racial politics. --dab (𒁳) 10:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

The above comment that "I will continue to dispute ..." is a cause for great concern. Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it. You've expressed yourself in terms of your own opinion, rather than arguments from reputable sources. Please review Wikipedia:Core_content_policies Travelmite (talk) 22:52, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Terminological history chapter is an essay

The organisation of a chapter on terminological history is essentially an essay, based on the talk page opinion. None of the sources provide a "terminological history". We need to go back to the basics with this article Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. WP:OP includes "any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." Travelmite (talk) 06:22, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Need to follow edit policy / Bold rewrite

A large number of changes have been made to the material with no edit summary (see Help:Edit_summary). Edit summaries should accurately and succinctly summarize the nature of the edit. The net result has obscured understanding of what is happening to this page. It is unresponsive to the comments on the talk page. Proper use of edit summaries and talk page is critical to resolving content. We also see that the Talk page and Article page redirect to other pages, so this big change has not been taken undertaken with due care. We have a page about one thing, but still primarily discusses the other, and links elsewhere to "Australoid" now refer to a redirect.

The article appears to be have been completely rewritten on 9-Oct, to present a unified, uncritical point of view, which ignores the discussion and analysis in the source material that refer to a range of scientific debates from various disciplines, including how terms should be used. In each of the texts referenced, there are pages suggesting caution and explaining the limited scope of the material, so to provide context for understanding the later presented information. The whole article has been vastly rewritten over a few hours. Further effort needs to be made on collaboration. The rushed manner of editing has also resulted in numerous typographical errors. The name changed, but the article content refers to the old name, without explanation. Travelmite (talk) 00:47, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

References to 1939

If anything demonstrates the attempts to wind back current knowledge on this page, there are references being added citing Carlton Coon from 1939 who was a proponent of scientific racism. Travelmite (talk) 19:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC) They seem to have no relation to the text, where used, so removed. Travelmite (talk) 20:10, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Reliable Sources

In reference to the ancestry groups mentioned in Black, Sue; Ferguson, Eilidh (2011). Forensic Anthropology:

You changed Caucasoid to European and Mongoloid to Central Asian. This is not correct. Europeans are Caucasoid, but not all Caucasoids are European. That is a higly eurocentric claim. Arabs are not a European group, they are a West Asian Caucasoid group. Also the Central-Asian group is nonesense. Central-Asians are Turkic peoples, Iranian people, Mongolians and Russians and various other ethnolinguistic groups. They are Caucasoid and Mongoloid. Please change this back. Even the source say (Negroid, Australoid, Caucasoid and Mongolid). I agree with your other edits. 212.241.98.39 (talk) 20:21, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows what is written by reliable academic sources. I compared the source and the text, and they said something totally different from each other, to the extent that the source said there were four ancestry groups, and the text said there were five. Your disagreement is with the forensic anthropologists who wrote the source, or the editor who first inserted the source. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources Travelmite (talk) 20:40, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Adjusting Sources

The population groups listed in the source from Forensic Anthropology: 2000 to 2010 are found in the quote: "There are considered to be four basic ancestry groups into which an individual can be placed by physical appearance, not accounting for admixture: the sub-Saharan African group, the European group, the Central Asian group, and the Australasian group." Travelmite (talk) 15:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

That makes no sense, and you take the quote out of context. It is Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid and Negroid. What is "Central-Asian"!? Central-Asians are predominantly Mongoloid with Caucasoid admixture... Your edit is highly eurocentric. It is not European... what are Arabs? What are Indians? Stop your eurocentric nonesense!212.241.98.39 (talk) 11:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you, 212.241.98.39. Scheridon (talk) 14:59, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

@Scheridon: setting aside the question of whether we use geographical origin or "Caucasian", etc., the IP tried to add capoid which the source only mentions in saying that Coon tried to split Negroid into Capoid and Congoid, so that was inappropriate. But what really is inappropriate is the whole sentence, which I've removed. It doesn't add to the article and in a controversial subject which should be treated elsewhere. Doug Weller talk 15:55, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Particularly, I consider the Khoisan peoples so different from the rest of the Sub-Saharan African peoples, but it seems that only Carleton Coon has considered Khoisan as a distinct human group. Scheridon (talk) 16:19, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

POV maps

File:Negrito ancestry distribution.png

File:Sub Saharan African related (Negroid) ancestry.png

@Joshua Jonathan: & @Doug Weller: - This User:LenguaMapa on wikicommons (does not seem to have wikipedia account?) has been adding unreliable/unsourced maps like these on several pages. Claiming Oceanians are Africans and not East Eurasians.

He guesstimates "Negrotio" (onge) ancestry in South Asians, and also associates it with Sub Shaharan African ancestry. Here is link to Negrito map talk page and Sub Sahaharan related map talk page. I have pointed how (McColl et al. 2018) models East Asians as roughly 75% Onge (Andamanese)-related and 25% Tianyuan-related (fig.3) where Onge is capturing deep proxy ancestry. Similarly, Onge is also capturing deep proxy for hypothesized AASI ancestry which is poor fit for AASI as several studies have pointed out.

I cited various peer-reviewed studies from reich and haravrd groups, pointed out Negrito and Australians descend from East Eurasian clad along with East Asians, however he won't seem to get it.

"New Guinea and Australia fit well as sister groups, with their majority ancestry component forming a clade with East Asians (with respect to western Eurasians). Onge fit as a near-trifurcation with the Australasian and East Asian lineages" - Lipson et al. 2017

"Deep ancestry of the indigenous hunter-gather population of India represents an anciently divergent branch of Asian human variation that split off around the same time that East Asian, Onge and Australian aboriginal ancestors separated from each other." He also notes that East Eurasian clad spread "From a single eastward spread, which gave rise in a short span of time to the lineages leading to AASI, East Asians, Onge, and Australians" - Narashimhan et al. 2018

"If one of these population fits (for AASI), it does not mean it is the true source; instead, it means that it and the true source population are consistent with descending without mixture from the same homogeneous ancestral population that potentially lived thousands of years before. The only fitting two-way models were mixtures of a group related to herders from the western Zagros mountains of Iran and also to either Andamanese hunter-gatherers or East Siberian hunter-gatherers (the fact that the latter two populations both fit reflects that they have the same phylogenetic relationship to the non-West Eurasian-related component likely due to shared ancestry deeply in time)" Shinde et al. 2019

While he cites Non-peer reviewed Yuan et al. 2019 study, which has not been peer-reviewed for months. Which came out last year claiming Oceanians are mix of European/Indian and African, and not Asians. There was discussion about this on Anthorogenica post 1 explains why & post 2. It is telling why the study was not peer-rewired.

Reliable peer-reviewed ancient DNA study suggests otherwise, this Figure 4 from (McColl et al. 2018) based on ancient DNA will help understand East Eurasian clad and it's branching, along with this Lipson et al 2018 study.

Those two maps is pretty misleading, he is guesstimating "negrito" ancestry based on Onge proxy ancestry found in mainland Asians and also associating it with Saharan/African ancestry, when in reality Negritos branched from East Eurasian clad and share deep ancestry with all East Eurasians. Ilber8000 (talk) 20:33, 13 March 2020 (UTC)