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→Wikipedia is not a personal blog for the Al-Ahbash and/or its proponents: All of your "clear arguments" have not already been discussed over and over and over again but also gone through an RFC.
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This user seems to be back since this [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Al-Ahbash#Lead_section edit]. The [[Al-Ahbash]] can twist the Wikipedia guidelines all they want to fit to their agenda. The fact remains that I am not the sole editor who has been contributing to the [[Al-Ahbash]] page. There have been many other editors (i.e. {{ping|Softlavender}}, {{ping|MezzoMezzo}}) too. The truth of the matter is that the current version of the [[Al-Ahbash]] page is a huge compromise (i.e. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Al-Ahbash/Archive_10#RfC_about_Al-Ahbash_and_Al-Azhar RfC about Al-Ahbash and Al-Azhar]) despite all the attempts made by the [[Al-Ahbash]] to push their POV on [[Al-Ahbash]] for almost 2 decades by hook or by crook. <span style="border:1px solid #93010b;background:#ef0000;padding:2px;color:#efe6e6;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><font face="Arial">&nbsp;'''McKhan'''&nbsp;</font></span>&nbsp;<sup>'''([[User talk:McKhan|talk]])'''</sup> 23:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
This user seems to be back since this [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Al-Ahbash#Lead_section edit]. The [[Al-Ahbash]] can twist the Wikipedia guidelines all they want to fit to their agenda. The fact remains that I am not the sole editor who has been contributing to the [[Al-Ahbash]] page. There have been many other editors (i.e. {{ping|Softlavender}}, {{ping|MezzoMezzo}}) too. The truth of the matter is that the current version of the [[Al-Ahbash]] page is a huge compromise (i.e. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Al-Ahbash/Archive_10#RfC_about_Al-Ahbash_and_Al-Azhar RfC about Al-Ahbash and Al-Azhar]) despite all the attempts made by the [[Al-Ahbash]] to push their POV on [[Al-Ahbash]] for almost 2 decades by hook or by crook. <span style="border:1px solid #93010b;background:#ef0000;padding:2px;color:#efe6e6;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><font face="Arial">&nbsp;'''McKhan'''&nbsp;</font></span>&nbsp;<sup>'''([[User talk:McKhan|talk]])'''</sup> 23:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
:Are you able to address the issues with the sources raised in [[Talk:Al-Ahbash#Al-Azhar_Affiliation]] above? [[Special:Contributions/2601:243:2200:60E:D0C9:C5D3:6655:BA57|2601:243:2200:60E:D0C9:C5D3:6655:BA57]] ([[User talk:2601:243:2200:60E:D0C9:C5D3:6655:BA57|talk]]) 23:15, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
:Are you able to address the issues with the sources raised in [[Talk:Al-Ahbash#Al-Azhar_Affiliation]] above?
::One's edits and persistence speak louder than what someone claims. Your above-mentioned "clear arguments" are a tantamount to beating around the bush as they have not only been discussed before over and ever again but also gone through an [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Al-Ahbash/Archive_10#RfC_about_Al-Ahbash_and_Al-Azhar RfC].

::What you need to understand is that the topic of [[Al-Ahbash]] is very much '''contentious''' and '''controversial'''. I know very well that why the [[Al-Ahbash]] keep coming back to [[Al-Ahbash]] related pages on Wikipedia. It is NOT about respect for [[Al-Azhar]] or academic integrity, original research, sources, Wikipedia, its guidelines or anything else. It is basically all about '''marketing'''.

::They keep coming back to the the [[Al-Ahbash]] related pages on Wikipedia '''because''' these are the pages which shows up on most of the search results on Google, Yahoo and other major search engines. Thus, it is very important for the [[Al-Ahbash]] to keep all good, positive and sanitized information being posted about themselves and their scholar [[Abdullah_al-Harari]] on Wikipedia in order to make sure that they are able to keep/retain their current adherents as well as recruit potential adherents.

::That's where having the "affiliation" with [[Al-Azhar]] or using the banner of "Jamat Ahal Wa Sunnah" becomes handy and important because [[Al-Azhar]] being one of the oldest Sunni Institution and Jamat Ahl Wa Sunnah being the majority of the World Muslims being Sunnis can really be good for '''marketing''' and to '''buy the clout and legitimacy'''. Otherwise, the [[Al-Ahbash]] couldn't care less about [[Al-Azhar]] or Jamat Ahal Wa Sunnah or the mainstream Sunni Muslims.

::Each and every thing or word in [[Al-Ahbash]] or [[Abdullah_al-Harari]] articles have been discussed over and over and over again. You are not brining anything new to the table.

::And last but not least, what you also need to understand is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a party between the [[Al-Ahbash]] and other (i.e. Whabis, Salafis) nor it is a promotional blog belonging to the [[Al-Ahbash]] where they can publish whatever they deem suitable or appropriate about themselves and/or their scholar [[Abdullah_al-Harari]]. What is needed here the most that the people like you to stop pushing their agenda (i.e. POV) on [[Al-Ahbash]] and other [[Al-Ahbash]] related pages using various IDs and rotating IP addresses.

::P.S.: If you are not affiliated with the [[Al-Ahbash]] or proponent of them then why do you keep coming back after years and using the very same arguments and points which the typical [[Al-Ahbash]] folks and their proponents have been using for years, using various IDs, and rotating IP addresses, just like you.

::Thank you. <span style="border:1px solid #93010b;background:#ef0000;padding:2px;color:#efe6e6;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><font face="Arial">&nbsp;'''McKhan'''&nbsp;</font></span>&nbsp;<sup>'''([[User talk:McKhan|talk]])'''</sup> 00:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 00:25, 1 November 2020

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Al ahbash schools

None of the sources provided currently in the article discuss al ahbash schools connection with al azhar except for these. Cambridge University p.529 [1]  Egypt news agency Al-Ahram [2] University of Warsaw p.261 [3] Samsparky (talk) 03:34, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section

″The AICP claims to run its Islamic schools in affiliation with Al-Azhar, a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.″

This seems a rather odd sentence to be in the lead section, currently composed of four sentences, given that it's trivial. If a reader only read the lead section, would this be one of the four most important things to know about the Al-Ahbash? The article contains no other details on the AICP's schools or how they are run. Including this in the lead seems to place undue weight on this fact. 2601:243:903:3F5B:1D28:70B2:3ED9:B79E (talk) 16:11, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If that sentence was so "trivial" then the Al-Ahbash wouldn't have been fighting and sock-puppeting over it for years. Given that barely after one month of the above RfC, you are showing up yet with another twist, using the rotating IPv6s and targeting the very same sentence which has been contentious and discussed over and over again doesn't seem to be good-faith editing. Let other chime in.  McKhan  (talk) 02:25, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Which general secondary source discusses this portion of the Al-Ahbash so prominently? How many of them do so? 2601:243:903:3F5B:1000:4DF4:BABA:DE06 (talk) 02:54, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you suddenly showing up after the above RfC with a new twist using the rotating IPv6 and targeting the very same sentence? Why do the Al-Ahbash have been fighting and sock-puppeting over it for years if that sentence is so trivial? What relationship do you have with the previous editors? Answer these questions and let @Softlavender:, @MezzoMezzo: and other chime in.  McKhan  (talk) 03:10, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I do not have a relationship with any recent editors of this page or talk page. I have no control over how often my IP rotates. Please stick to the topic at hand and if you suspect me of having a relationship with another editor, use the appropriate processes as recourse. 2601:243:903:3F5B:1000:4DF4:BABA:DE06 (talk) 03:14, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The timing of you showing up and targeting the very same sentence doesn't seem very coincidental. I will let others have a look at it.  McKhan  (talk) 03:20, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Al-Azhar Affiliation

I've read the article talk page archives and note that the sentence "[t]he AICP claims to run its Islamic schools in affiliation with Al-Azhar, a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar" has been the source of a lot of contention. The problem with this sentence, however, is that the second clause, i.e., "a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar", is a violation of WP:NOR. Specifically, it violates WP:SYNTHESIS in joining multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated in any reliable source cited and WP:PRIMARY in that the letter purportedly written by Dr. Hashem is a primary source of unclear provenance and is not "reputably published." The claim that the AICP runs schools in connection with Al-Azhar is supported by an article published in the International Journal of Middle East Studies, a secondary source that meets WP:RS criteria. Conversely, the five sources used to support the second clause are problematic and are listed below along with an explanation for why each source is not sufficient:

"Egypt arrests 22 men for corrupting Islam"- Reuters, 13 December 2007. ("The source said they belong to the al-Ahbash sect – which has a significant following in Lebanon and strong historical ties to Syria – and which is considered unorthodox by many Islamic clerics including the ones at Al-Azhar."
Comment: The source does not support the proposition for which it is cited. See WP:SYNTHESIS.


Dr. Ahmed Omar Hashem (August 28, 2001). "President of Al-Azhar's Letter / statement issued on the official letterhead of Al-Azhar (Arabic)". Al-Azhar University. Retrieved July 17, 2016. (Excerpts from the letter from Arabic to English regarding AICP or Al-Ahbash: "There is no single form of recognition/accreditation and cooperation between Al-Azhar University and them. All papers, in which what is otherwise claimed (by this organization) do not correspond to the truth. We reject all attempts to abuse the prestigious name of Al-Azhar University by this organizations..")
Comment: The source is not a secondary source. It is a primary source of unclear provenance and is not reputably published. See WP:PRIMARY.


Assembly of Muslim Jurists in America (AMJA) (April 19, 2013). "About the Abyssinians sect". Assembly of Muslim Jurists in America (AMJA). Retrieved March 27, 2017. {{cite web}}: External link in |author= (help) (Excerpt: "These announcements are embedded in the following literature and media: Professor Dr. Ahmad Omar Hashim`s letter, Al-Azhar University President, to Muslim World League`s Secretary-General in August 24, 2001.")
Comment: This organization's statement does not qualify as a reliable secondary source. It certainly can't be used as a source on anything but itself. See WP:PRIMARY and WP:SPS.


Liz Fuller (September 14, 2016). "Analysis: Grozny Fatwa On 'True Believers' Triggers Major Controversy". Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty/RFE/RL, Inc. Retrieved March 27, 2017. (Excerpt: "Conference participants, who included Ahmed El- Tayeb, rector of Cairo's Al-Azhar Islamic University, adopted a fatwa stipulating that the sole true adherents of traditional Islam are those who abide by Kalam scholastic theology, belong to one of the four madhhabs (legal schools)......It identifies the Salafi strain of Sunni Islam professed in Saudi Arabia as a "dangerous and erroneous contemporary sect," along with the extremist group Islamic State, Hizb ut-Tahrir, and the Habashis.")
Comment: I'm not sure that this source meets WP:RS criteria. Even if it does, the text of the source does not support the proposition for which it is cited. See WP:SYNTHESIS.


"Exposing Abd Allah al-Harari and his sect the Ahbash of Lebanon ("Association of Islamic Charitable Projects")" (PDF). Markaz al-Nasr li Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamaah, Jakarta, Indonesia / As-Sunnah Foundation of America. pp. 23, 24. Retrieved July 17, 2016.
Comment: As with the AMJA statement above, this organization's statement does not qualify as a reliable secondary source. See WP:PRIMARY and WP:SPS.

Please provide at least one reliable secondary source, as required by WP:RS, that unequivocally states that Al-Azhar denies any affiliation with Al-Ahbash's schools. 2601:243:2200:60E:B1EC:F03A:76FB:7965 (talk) 06:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion of Lead

Many secondary sources, such as the Guide to Islamist Movements stress the controversial aspects of the Al-Ahbash and the article has a large controversy section. This is missing from the lead. A brief sentence such as "The Al-Ahbash have been criticized for fringe views and for violence, claims that the Al-Ahbash have denied" may be appropriate. Thoughts? 2601:243:2200:60E:D0C9:C5D3:6655:BA57 (talk) 16:31, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a personal blog for the Al-Ahbash and/or its proponents

This user seems to be back since this edit. The Al-Ahbash can twist the Wikipedia guidelines all they want to fit to their agenda. The fact remains that I am not the sole editor who has been contributing to the Al-Ahbash page. There have been many other editors (i.e. @Softlavender:, @MezzoMezzo:) too. The truth of the matter is that the current version of the Al-Ahbash page is a huge compromise (i.e. RfC about Al-Ahbash and Al-Azhar) despite all the attempts made by the Al-Ahbash to push their POV on Al-Ahbash for almost 2 decades by hook or by crook.  McKhan  (talk) 23:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are you able to address the issues with the sources raised in Talk:Al-Ahbash#Al-Azhar_Affiliation above?
One's edits and persistence speak louder than what someone claims. Your above-mentioned "clear arguments" are a tantamount to beating around the bush as they have not only been discussed before over and ever again but also gone through an RfC.
What you need to understand is that the topic of Al-Ahbash is very much contentious and controversial. I know very well that why the Al-Ahbash keep coming back to Al-Ahbash related pages on Wikipedia. It is NOT about respect for Al-Azhar or academic integrity, original research, sources, Wikipedia, its guidelines or anything else. It is basically all about marketing.
They keep coming back to the the Al-Ahbash related pages on Wikipedia because these are the pages which shows up on most of the search results on Google, Yahoo and other major search engines. Thus, it is very important for the Al-Ahbash to keep all good, positive and sanitized information being posted about themselves and their scholar Abdullah_al-Harari on Wikipedia in order to make sure that they are able to keep/retain their current adherents as well as recruit potential adherents.
That's where having the "affiliation" with Al-Azhar or using the banner of "Jamat Ahal Wa Sunnah" becomes handy and important because Al-Azhar being one of the oldest Sunni Institution and Jamat Ahl Wa Sunnah being the majority of the World Muslims being Sunnis can really be good for marketing and to buy the clout and legitimacy. Otherwise, the Al-Ahbash couldn't care less about Al-Azhar or Jamat Ahal Wa Sunnah or the mainstream Sunni Muslims.
Each and every thing or word in Al-Ahbash or Abdullah_al-Harari articles have been discussed over and over and over again. You are not brining anything new to the table.
And last but not least, what you also need to understand is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a party between the Al-Ahbash and other (i.e. Whabis, Salafis) nor it is a promotional blog belonging to the Al-Ahbash where they can publish whatever they deem suitable or appropriate about themselves and/or their scholar Abdullah_al-Harari. What is needed here the most that the people like you to stop pushing their agenda (i.e. POV) on Al-Ahbash and other Al-Ahbash related pages using various IDs and rotating IP addresses.
P.S.: If you are not affiliated with the Al-Ahbash or proponent of them then why do you keep coming back after years and using the very same arguments and points which the typical Al-Ahbash folks and their proponents have been using for years, using various IDs, and rotating IP addresses, just like you.
Thank you.  McKhan  (talk) 00:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Al-Ahbash&oldid=986459227"