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:I think this section could be 4 paragraphs. I would propose a wording but Valjean does not seem to be on board with any significant reductions. Therefore it’s a waste of time if it’s just going to be reverted and stonewalled on the talk page. If we can get an agreement beforehand what the target is then we can be successful. This approach should then be applied to the rest of the article. There’s no reason this article needs to be 360k bytes (aka one of the largest on the project). I saw {{u|JzG}} making the case recently for a similar trim to another needlessly oversized article. It has been very difficult to get a ''single'' superfluous sentence removed, requiring several days and several thousand words, despite a mostly obvious consensus. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 04:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
:I think this section could be 4 paragraphs. I would propose a wording but Valjean does not seem to be on board with any significant reductions. Therefore it’s a waste of time if it’s just going to be reverted and stonewalled on the talk page. If we can get an agreement beforehand what the target is then we can be successful. This approach should then be applied to the rest of the article. There’s no reason this article needs to be 360k bytes (aka one of the largest on the project). I saw {{u|JzG}} making the case recently for a similar trim to another needlessly oversized article. It has been very difficult to get a ''single'' superfluous sentence removed, requiring several days and several thousand words, despite a mostly obvious consensus. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 04:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
:: I agree with [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]. You are always welcome to propose wordings right here that improve the article. I would caution against any arbitrary number of paragraphs. Only the [[WP:Lead]] has such a rule, and even that is flexible. Content is governed by RS coverage. More coverage often means more content. That is what should determine the amount and weight of coverage of a topic here. Deletion of content and RS can easily violate that principle. We want thorough coverage. Instead of an arbitrary idea of what size to aim for, attempts to improve content should focus on reducing duplication, redundancy, unnecessarily long and wordy sentences that can be written better, etc. There is a long list of ways to improve content at PRESERVE [[Wikipedia:Editing policy#Try to fix problems]]. Good copy editing is always welcome as long as it is not an attempt to whitewash and remove content one does not like. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) 15:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
:: I agree with [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]. You are always welcome to propose wordings right here that improve the article. I would caution against any arbitrary number of paragraphs. Only the [[WP:Lead]] has such a rule, and even that is flexible. Content is governed by RS coverage. More coverage often means more content. That is what should determine the amount and weight of coverage of a topic here. Deletion of content and RS can easily violate that principle. We want thorough coverage. Instead of an arbitrary idea of what size to aim for, attempts to improve content should focus on reducing duplication, redundancy, unnecessarily long and wordy sentences that can be written better, etc. There is a long list of ways to improve content at PRESERVE [[Wikipedia:Editing policy#Try to fix problems]]. Good copy editing is always welcome as long as it is not an attempt to whitewash and remove content one does not like. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) 15:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
:::There are countless RS that document events, and it is our job to summarize them accordingly to create an encyclopedia article. Let's take WW2 for example - if we were to build that article according to RS coverage, it would be thousands of times larger than it is. There is no policy that says you can only add content as RS coverage grows. That leads to a situation like we have with this article - it is extremely long, hard to read, and gives UNDUE weight to minor opinions. Such complete aggregation of every mention of the Steele Dossier in RS is better suited to a blog. Just about everyone but you who has weighed in here agrees that this article needs significant trimming. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 15:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
::Maybe let's start approaching it like this: what are the main points of the pee tape that we need to keep? I'd say Trump's denial of staying overnight in Moscow should stay, as well as the proof that he was there over 24 hours. Then other things debunking the existence of the tape would stay. It's difficult to read through in the current state that it's in, so condensing would help. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
::Maybe let's start approaching it like this: what are the main points of the pee tape that we need to keep? I'd say Trump's denial of staying overnight in Moscow should stay, as well as the proof that he was there over 24 hours. Then other things debunking the existence of the tape would stay. It's difficult to read through in the current state that it's in, so condensing would help. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:18, 13 May 2021

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:29, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Non-RS

I would suggest that the Showbiz411 ref be deleted, as Showbiz411 is not an RS, per Wikipedia:USERGENERATED and WP:SELFPUB. --2603:7000:2143:8500:DDB2:A4E1:CCC1:91F3 (talk) 03:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Each source, and the content used from it, must be judged on a case-by-case basis. That applies to all sources. Neither USERGENERATED nor SELFPUB apply to this content. It is a secondary-source documenting what a primary source (Van Zandt's tweet) says. That's a perfectly appropriate way to use it. There is no question about accuracy, and it isn't even being used to make any type of interpretation, although we could quote, with attribution, its "This is how deft a liar Cohen is– that he could have combined details, inflated them to bigger meaning, and used them as a distraction. So we do know that Cohen was in Rome in the summer of 2016. And now reports are saying that he was also outside Prague later in the summer.", but we don't.
Instead, we stick to the very bare minimum to document a simple fact from a first-person witness. We leave it up to readers to conclude whether Cohen is or is not a liar in this instance (something which he has admitted being paid to do when defending Trump). -- Valjean (talk) 19:05, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SELFPUB says unequivocally: "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people .." There is zero gray. If you have an RS source for that, go at it. But it is clearly not acceptable to use this self-published source as a ref. --2603:7000:2143:8500:95D3:5A5F:D9B5:5BA4 (talk) 22:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
??? Please explain how this is a self published source. You must know something I don't. Is this Roger's own website? I'm not familiar with its background.
More importantly, is the content we're citing Roger's opinion, or is it Van Zandt's description of events, with the source being a secondary source vehicle for the content, thus avoiding an WP:OR violation? -- Valjean (talk) 23:42, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. It is the self-published website of RF. It is being used as a source about a living person. WP:SELFPUB says unequivocally: "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people .." It does not have an exception that says "unless the self published source is reporting on what it says is a fact." 2603:7000:2143:8500:95D3:5A5F:D9B5:5BA4 (talk) 01:15, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is called Roger Fredimans Showbiz*411, the article was written by Roger Friedman, so yes it looks like an SPS, owned edited and written by one bloke.Slatersteven (talk) 10:38, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes indeed, it does seem that way. I'd like to learn more. What type of site is it? Is he considered a subject matter expert, and if so, what subjects? -- Valjean (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What type of site is it? It's as Slatersteven says. That type of site. Run by a disgraced former freelancer gossip journalist, who was fired by Fox, and then not renewed by his next employer, and no publication has chosen to pick him up in a decade - so .. not an expert. And even if he were an expert - per the guideline - "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people .." Slatersteven - I think it should be removed as well. 2603:7000:2143:8500:6D46:2616:9B20:C246 (talk) 17:30, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I have removed that source. Roger Friedman is not quoted, nor are his opinions used. In fact, they never were. (BTW, since his article does quote unquestionable facts, multiple RS have used it.) Since we already use Washington Monthly, I have reworked the content and provided an attributed statement showing the relevance for that content about Rome, Capri, and Van Zandt. Cohen was unquestionably trying to provide an alibi disproven by several people. -- Valjean (talk) 17:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. The issue was always the nature of the source. As always, where there is a good source, the text can remain. But the non-RS source should be removed, as you have kindly done. 2603:7000:2143:8500:6D46:2616:9B20:C246 (talk) 18:25, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for working with me and patiently providing the background for that source. -- Valjean (talk) 16:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done -- Valjean (talk) 16:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of including random opinion

I removed an opinion from a random former prosecutor on grounds of UNDUE but also potentially BLP, but Valjean reverted. The text is According to former federal prosecutor Pete Zeidenberg, such "false statements to Comey about the trip could demonstrate that Trump has 'consciousness of guilt'. The fake pee tape section contains 10 paragraphs and almost 1,200 words, so does the opinion of this former prosecutor belong in the article? What context does it add that the other 10 paragraphs don't? Alleging that Trump has "consciousness of guilt" may also be a BLP violation. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please review WP:BLP. You might say it's UNDUE, but it is certainly not a BLP violation. SPECIFICO talk 16:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You need to stop stalking my comments - it is getting extremely creepy. Do you care to weigh in on the topic with any substance or just snipe at me? Mr Ernie (talk) 16:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to hear you're feeling creepy. But a quick check would show you I've been quite active on this page for years. And WP:CRYBLP is a substantive response, as was my observation that with additional detail you may, in fact, have a valid NPOV argument. SPECIFICO talk 03:34, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As a general comment, this article is nearly 360k bytes. Almost 5 times longer than War and Peace and 1.5x that of World War II. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:42, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A valid point, and removing one line does not really go any way towards rectifying that.Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, I would have removed nearly the entire section but it would have surely been reverted. So we can go piece by piece. Do you think that bit should be in or out? Mr Ernie (talk) 16:56, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ambivalent, I am not sure what it adds, but it is only one line.Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Even if inclusion could have been justified in April 2018 when the Politico article was published, the attributed speculation about what Mueller might find by a former federal prosecutor no longer seems to have any lasting significance to an encyclopedic project. Just my two cents.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:15, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence provides context for why Trump's deceptive alibis were seen as significant, and are part of why this whole pee tape matter stayed alive, even though Steele only gave it a fifty-fifty chance of being true. He treated everything in the dossier as raw intelligence material—not proven fact. If Trump hadn't lied, attention to the allegation would have died down faster. IMO, it's too bad Steele's MI6 training required him to include it, as it provided Trump and the media with a convenient and sensational distraction from the more serious and main thrust of the dossier, which has proven true.

Normally we tend to brush off many of Trump's statements because he lies constantly and about nearly everything, big or small (not a BLP violation as we have articles and abundant RS to prove it's true), but his unforced attempts to minimize his presence and actions in Moscow are significant because they figure into how legal subject matter experts evaluate the truth or falsity of what Trump allegedly said and did there. Zeidenberg's view backs up Comey's identical view on the matter (Comey has extensively described what he saw as Trump's evident consciousness of guilt, something which changed his mind from a denier to a maybe peeliever), so this is not some random or immaterial voice on the matter. Zeidenberg spent 17 years at the Justice Department.

We do not limit article content to factoids, and we don't delete content because it's unfavorable to Trump. We should continue to resist all efforts to whitewash his history. Our job requires us to include experts' interpretative opinions when they provide more context. Comey and Zeidenberg are such experts. This content is conservatively written, properly sourced and attributed, and should be kept. Readers can do with it what they want, but they should know that legal experts view Trump's lies through this lens. It is part of our job to provide things like this. -- Valjean (talk) 15:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If the relevance of Trump's alleged false statements is that it kept the story alive, then the article should say that, citing a source that makes that claim. This isn't a murder mystery dinner party, where we provide clues to the punters and let them piece together what happened. Unless that link is explicitly made, all we have is a random observation by an obscure lawyer. It's not even a significant claim: of course false statements to investigators could imply guilt.
BLP is an issue, since stating that Trump lied to investigators, which is an offense, is accusing Trump of criminal activity although he has not been convicted.
TFD (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Valjean, since there’s not a single shred of evidence the fake pee tape exists, there’s nothing to whitewash. Half of this article is irrelevant speculation. This evidence free assertion by someone nobody has ever heard of before should be removed. Mr Ernie (talk) 00:19, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would expect that kind of objection from a random visitor who has no clue about policies, how we build content, and why we try to preserve properly sourced content. Nothing in your comment is remotely attached to any policies, so I'll discount it as an obvious "I don't like it" objection.
The status quo and very long-standing (since November 14, 2019) version should stay as is (that is policy) until we've had a thorough discussion and reached a solid consensus that references policies. All content in this article is extremely well-sourced. The truth, falsity, existence, or non-existence of anything in an allegation is irrelevant. RS are what counts, and all the content is based on that. Unfortunately, this happens to deal with the most notable allegation in the dossier. Interestingly, it's an allegation believed by Russians from long before the dossier was written. -- Valjean (talk) 16:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It’s UNDUE in a section that’s 4x longer than it needs to be. There isn’t any actual evidence in the entire section, so a random speculation adds nothing. Not everything a RS reports is DUE content for an encyclopedia. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Any actual evidence?" What does that have to do with anything? "Any actual RS coverage" is the proper question, as that is what determines due weight, and now you've deleted the most thorough analysis of the existence or non-existence of the purported pee tape, which covers all media mentions? (She concludes that the one on the internet is likely a good fake.) What on earth is that kind of editing? It certainly violates many policies and practices here. The due weight of the pee tape allegation has zero to do with whether the allegation is true or whether the tape even exists, and everything to do with the coverage it has gotten. Our personal feelings and beliefs do not determine due weight or amount of content, yet you're editing in that manner. We must give it the coverage that RS give it. You should self-revert and start a discussion in another section. -- Valjean (talk) 18:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Valjean, find three reliable sources and it can go in. Deal? Guy (help! - typo?) 18:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

JzG, let's be careful not to make ad hoc rules not found in policy. The idea you suggest does apply (at least that's how I apply it) to BLP's WP:Public figure situations, but not to opinions and other content found in RS. We don't have to have three or more citations to the idea of "consciousness of guilt" before we can include one such mention. Comey also shares this view. Trump's deceptive denials and so-called alibis raised the suspicions of many in law enforcement, as well as others.
Otherwise, we could build this content better (make it a subsection called "Consciousness of guilt") by adding more from Comey, who thought it was "significant" that Trump lied to him twice; that Trump's actions "reflected consciousness of guilt"; and in several sources (including this one) has described "two tells" which Trump inadvertently revealed to him:

COOPER: You also said in your memos that the president told you twice that he did not spend the night in Moscow around the Miss Universe pageant. Since then, flight records, social media posts, congressional testimony, also photographs, prove that he actually did spend the night in Moscow.

What’s the — I mean, do you think it’s significant that the president lied to you twice about that?

COMEY: It’s always significant when someone lies to you, especially about something you’re not asking about. It tends to reflect consciousness of guilt, as we would say in law enforcement.

COOPER: You’ve noticed that in past interactions with a prosecutor. If someone is lying about stuff you haven’t asked about, that’s a tell?

COMEY: Right, two tells. If they bring things up you didn’t ask about, and if they bring it up and make a false statement about it, that’s — it’s not definitive, but it certainly makes you very concerned about what might be going on there.[1]

Using that source, we could then create this content, adding it to the Zeidenberg quote that has been deleted without any policy-based reason for doing so.

Comey viewed Trump's two false denials as lies showing "consciousness of guilt",[1][2] and former federal prosecutor Pete Zeidenberg agreed, stating that such "false statements to Comey about the trip could demonstrate that Trump has 'consciousness of guilt'."[3]

My proposed solution is to strengthen this content (by adding about four more inches and two more sources to the sentence, as it's a matter which Trump, Comey, and others have always viewed as very significant. Our job is to improve, not destroy and weaken, our content. The claims of "undue" are bogus. -- Valjean (talk) 21:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Valjean, WP:UNDUE. A single source is easily argued as undue. Three, not so much. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
JzG, this is three sources out of myriad others we could include that comment on the subject of the Comey interview. Just face the fact that "undue" is being used as a rubber nose excuse to delete "I don't like it" content, in this case a whitewashing protection of Trump. No other policies are being cited to justify calling it undue. "Undue" is often abused in the same manner that "consensus" gets abused when it is used to mean "we agree we don't like it" without mention of any other policies.
ec... Consensus and undue should never be cited as standalone policies. They should always be based on other existing policies. If no policies are cited, then the claims should be ignored as just a local tyranny of the majority. OTOH, if that majority is saying "our consensus is based on this and this policy," then the word suddenly means something. Otherwise not. The same with "undue". It should be based on other cited policies. Unless I have missed something, no such reasoning is evident above. I only see them cited as weak and pitiful standalone arguments. It's like seeing scientific claims without any evidence. I'm asking for the evidence. Otherwise, we're looking at quackery.
BTW, an interview with Comey is significant and not undue on its own, especially when it cites Trump and Trump's own manic fascination with this topic. -- Valjean (talk) 23:59, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please don’t add anything else to that bloated section. You seem to be saying that because a RS mentioned a blurb about something, it must be added to the article. I don’t agree with that, as news stories are not inherently encyclopedic, and I don’t think that’s in line with policy. The fake pee tape adds nothing to the article - it’s a fake. There’s probably a hundred on the internet, so who cares?. A speculation by an attorney adds nothing to the article - everyone has an opinion. I’m going to be making more trims to this article and I hope you’ll be on board. Mr Ernie (talk) 23:55, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What policy are you citing? An interview with the FBI director about a discussion with Trump in which Trump lied more than once is "unencyclopedic"? On what planet is that not significant?
The "pee tape" may be fake or it may not. We do not know, and that is totally irrelevant to the topic. Have myriad RS discussed it? Yes. Is it the most notable allegation in the dossier? Yes. Do RS still mention it every single day? Yes. (My Google Alerts tell me so.) Do the GOP and extreme right-wing sources still mention it every single day? Yes.
Coverage in RS elevates rumors, lies, conspiracy theories, quackery, etc. to notable subjects we are required to cover here. That's how it works here. You should know that, but you continue to ignore the most basic of policies that govern the creation and preservation of content here. It is your opinion that the pee tape is fake. Fine. It may be. So what? That's irrelevant. -- Valjean (talk) 00:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mr Ernie, since your "trims" are not based in policy, but just on your personal preference, sources be damned, you really shouldn't do such trimming without a good discussion and agreement first. Long-standing content is consensus content, so start a discussion on specific topics and seek a consensus for change. Do it one at a time. That's the proper way to work and avoid edit warring on this very controversial article. Most experienced editors know that such an approach often results in positive changes here, usually because they are not deletionists and cite specific policies, while solo deletions of long-standing content usually results in contention. Try to avoid that. -- Valjean (talk) 00:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It has nothing to do with sources, and everything to do with WP:NOTNEWS and WP:UNDUE. Shift gears from the reliably sourced stuff. It’s obviously sourced, but not encyclopedic. Mr Ernie (talk) 00:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What are your standards for "encyclopedic"? To me encyclopedic includes, as in this case, abundant RS, very notable topic, very notable individuals, interesting and controversial events, such as the President repeatedly lying to the FBI Director. That qualifies. "Not news" doesn't apply to this. -- Valjean (talk) 02:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Valjean, lets have a proposed paragraph with sources and we can have an RfC. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Valjean - sloppy writing there, you can do better. Comey viewed Trump's two false denials as lies is false. According to the interview, Comey says: "... I don't know what was in his head, I don't know whether he was intentionally misstating a fact to me, or maybe when he said it to me he thought he stayed overnight, but he said, I didn't - I'm sorry - that he didn't stay overnight, but he definitely said that." Also false is the quote attributed to Zeidenberg, when it was the Politico writer Schreckinger's quote. starship.paint (exalt) 13:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comey was agreeing with Cooper, so it's not false that he considered Trump's statements to be lies. I guess it comes down to better wording and attribution, which you have done below. We just need to make that point clear. Comey thought Trump was lying. -- Valjean (talk) 14:24, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That said, I did find one additional source regarding Comey's comment[4] and one additional source regarding Zeidenberg's comment.[5] starship.paint (exalt) 13:10, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FBI Director James Comey said Trump privately gave false denials on whether he had stayed overnight in Moscow, despite Comey not asking about it. This type of behaviour "tends to reflect consciousness of guilt", but is "not definitive", said Comey.[2][1][4][3] Trump disputed that he had issued such a denial to Comey, and he publicly declared: "of course I stayed there".[4] Former federal prosecutor Pete Zeidenberg similarly opined that potential false denials by Trump may indicate "consciousness of guilt".[3][5]

Proposing. Denials of specific accusations, Donald Trump section. No need for "consciousness of guilt" section with just the above material. starship.paint (exalt) 13:10, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Starship.paint, as usual you write and parse things well. Thanks for your excellent insights and improvements. I think your version is much better than the original, and that a subsection won't be necessary with this version. -- Valjean (talk) 14:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's better but per the original point of this section the last sentence is not needed. There's already too much speculation and mind reading in the article, it may be this or may be that. What is DUE about this particular former federal prosecutor's opinion? Mr Ernie (talk) 17:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is simply the widespread assessment of informed expert observers. SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mr Ernie, "speculation and mind reading" from editors is not allowed as article content, but such opinions from others, when published in RS, is often welcome content. That's because our job goes far beyond the mere documentation of facts (the existence of a serious allegation -- that Russian intelligence filmed prostitutes performing acts at the command of Trump -- is a fact).
Experienced editors here should understand the gradation of source quality and desirablity here, and it is illustrated nicely in the Ad Fontes Media Bias Chart. Look at the left side of the screen. We like sources that provide "Fact reporting", but they are rarely enough. So what if a rock is lying in the middle of a street? We want to know "why" it's there, among other things. Opinions about "why" are important content. We really like "Analysis" or "Mix of fact reporting and analysis". That's because the analysis, especially from subject matter experts, tells us the real significance of the dry facts.
It is a fact that the allegation exists, and we are required to document it, so whether it exists or not, we clearly document what RS say about the pee tape allegation. It is also a fact that Trump unnecessarily lied at least twice to Comey, and Comey noted that as "significant". (Cohen also lied unnecessarily about the Prague allegation.) Other subject matter experts like Zeidenberg share Comey's opinion that Trump revealed "consciousness of guilt". The lies were so significant that Comey, who originally thought the allegation to be wild and likely not true, changed his mind and began to entertain the suspicion that it might be true, a scary thought, seen from a national security perspective. Comey's "analysis" tells us the significance of the dry facts. That's why this is important content:
"COOPER: You’ve noticed that in past interactions with a prosecutor. If someone is lying about stuff you haven’t asked about, that’s a tell? COMEY: Right, two tells. If they bring things up you didn’t ask about, and if they bring it up and make a false statement about it, that’s — it’s not definitive, but it certainly makes you very concerned about what might be going on there."
Since all the leaders of our intelligence agencies have publicly stated their belief that Putin has something on Trump and that he acts like a Russian "asset" (not "agent"), his false denials here, and failure to ever criticize Putin, increase the concern that he acts like a man who is being blackmailed and acting in favor of the worst enemy of the USA. That's why the Russia investigation is not a "hoax" and the dossier not a "fake" document. These investigation are serious business, all inspired by Trump's own actions. -- Valjean (talk) 20:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sources

  1. ^ a b c Bump, Philip (April 26, 2018). "Analysis: When you are and aren't legally allowed to lie to the FBI". The Washington Post. Retrieved May 9, 2021.
  2. ^ a b "Comey: Trump's Russia trip claim reflects guilt - CNN Video". CNN. April 26, 2018. Retrieved May 9, 2021.
  3. ^ a b c Schreckinger, Ben (April 23, 2018). "Trump's false claims to Comey about Moscow stay could aid Mueller". Politico. Retrieved November 14, 2019.
  4. ^ a b c Lemire, Jonathan; Day, Chad (April 27, 2018). "Trump pledges hands off Russia probe, may "change my mind'". Associated Press. Retrieved May 10, 2021.
  5. ^ a b Hohmann, James; Deppisch, Breanne; Greve, Joanie (April 24, 2018). "The Daily 202: VA nominee's struggles are a consequence of Trump's vetting failures". The Washington Post. Retrieved May 10, 2021.
Didn't you look at the hatted list of sources Valjean gave just above? There are many more you can easily find if you wish, but those are sufficient. SPECIFICO talk 08:18, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Existence of fake pee tape

Does the Kompromat / golden showers section need a paragraph regarding a fake pee tape that a Slate journalist debunked? I'm not sure what context this adds to the article, as it seems irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the sourcing, but more of an UNDUE thing - why is a fake pee tape notable enough for inclusion in an already too long article? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:08, May 11, 2021‎ (UTC)

Wrong heading, wrong questions, wrong assumptions. -- Valjean (talk) 21:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think the article in general is too long and needs some editorial trimming? Mr Ernie (talk) 22:38, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, but improvement is always welcome. The policy for that is here: WP:PRESERVE, IOW tweak, and do not remove properly sourced content unless absolutely necessary. -- Valjean (talk) 00:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't bother - the reliable sources for this article are a hall of infinitely reflecting mirrors.Shtove (talk) 22:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it could be condensed a lot. It is helpful to illustrate that one of the most widely reported claims of the thing is pure BS peddled for political gain. Which goes a long way towards informing the reader on how seriously it should be taken overall and how RS treat it. On the larger topic of article trimming, I bet you could remove almost every other sentence and not much of value would be lost. PackMecEng (talk) 22:44, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree but there’s a few editors who need to be on board or else it would all be blanket reverted. Mr Ernie (talk) 23:10, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Follow WP:PRESERVE. We build and improve here. We do not destroy, write summaries or outlines, use historical revisionism to remove the historical flow of events and revelations, or reduce to the bare minimum. We write comprehensive content that reflects all the nitty gritty details provided by RS. A person who reads the whole article should no longer have any questions about what RS have said, and if you find any holes, please fill them. Removal of content must not remove the answers to questions. That would be a disservice to readers.
I get the impression that some here have not really read the article and all the content which disses/criticizes/argues against the reliability of the dossier and its allegations, and also the criticisms of Steele. There is a lot of that located at the relevant spots. We welcome more RS which demonstrate "how RS treat it." -- Valjean (talk) 00:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Preserve is not the problem. The problem is basically covered by WP:DON'T PRESERVE and WP:NOT. PackMecEng (talk) 00:17, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, so be very specific about removing anything. DON'T PRESERVE refers to specific policies. Try to improve content, not just delete it. Otherwise, PRESERVE still rules:

Wikipedia is the product of millions of editors' contributions, each one bringing something different to the table, whether it be: researching skills, technical expertise, writing prowess or tidbits of information, but most importantly a willingness to help. Even the best articles should not be considered complete, as each new editor can offer new insights on how to enhance and improve the content in it at any time.

Valjean (talk) 00:40, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone here has been referring to specific policies. As well as giving examples on how and why they apply. Deleting poor or undue content is MORE important than trying to find excuses to preserve it simply because it is sourced. Which goes straight to one of our pillars, WP:V and more specifically WP:VNOT which states While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, not all verifiable information needs to be included in an article. PackMecEng (talk) 00:52, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the griping has been of the "I don't like it variety", with occasional citing of policies in a manner that reveals lack of understanding of what they mean. Stay away from the vague policies like consensus, due weight, and NOT. One must be very specific if one wishes to convince. -- Valjean (talk) 01:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds a lot like an "I don't like it variety" argument on your end actually. Not liking their policy based arguments is no reason to hand wave them away as you know. PackMecEng (talk) 01:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming that this is all about Steele dossier#Kompromat and "golden showers" allegation, yes I'm sure it can be trimmed, and potentially without sacrificing any content. If those who want to see it trimmed can produce some changes they'd like to implement, we can discuss them. Otherwise, this has the hallmarks of one of those threads where people yammer on and nothing gets done. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:26, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think this section could be 4 paragraphs. I would propose a wording but Valjean does not seem to be on board with any significant reductions. Therefore it’s a waste of time if it’s just going to be reverted and stonewalled on the talk page. If we can get an agreement beforehand what the target is then we can be successful. This approach should then be applied to the rest of the article. There’s no reason this article needs to be 360k bytes (aka one of the largest on the project). I saw JzG making the case recently for a similar trim to another needlessly oversized article. It has been very difficult to get a single superfluous sentence removed, requiring several days and several thousand words, despite a mostly obvious consensus. Mr Ernie (talk) 04:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Muboshgu. You are always welcome to propose wordings right here that improve the article. I would caution against any arbitrary number of paragraphs. Only the WP:Lead has such a rule, and even that is flexible. Content is governed by RS coverage. More coverage often means more content. That is what should determine the amount and weight of coverage of a topic here. Deletion of content and RS can easily violate that principle. We want thorough coverage. Instead of an arbitrary idea of what size to aim for, attempts to improve content should focus on reducing duplication, redundancy, unnecessarily long and wordy sentences that can be written better, etc. There is a long list of ways to improve content at PRESERVE Wikipedia:Editing policy#Try to fix problems. Good copy editing is always welcome as long as it is not an attempt to whitewash and remove content one does not like. -- Valjean (talk) 15:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are countless RS that document events, and it is our job to summarize them accordingly to create an encyclopedia article. Let's take WW2 for example - if we were to build that article according to RS coverage, it would be thousands of times larger than it is. There is no policy that says you can only add content as RS coverage grows. That leads to a situation like we have with this article - it is extremely long, hard to read, and gives UNDUE weight to minor opinions. Such complete aggregation of every mention of the Steele Dossier in RS is better suited to a blog. Just about everyone but you who has weighed in here agrees that this article needs significant trimming. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe let's start approaching it like this: what are the main points of the pee tape that we need to keep? I'd say Trump's denial of staying overnight in Moscow should stay, as well as the proof that he was there over 24 hours. Then other things debunking the existence of the tape would stay. It's difficult to read through in the current state that it's in, so condensing would help. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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