Talk:Margot Heuman: Difference between revisions

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Desertarun (talk) 20:43, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that even though Holocaust survivor Margot Heumann told multiple Holocaust archives about her queerness, they kept it hidden? Source: Der Tagesspiegel, in German. Translation of relevant quote: "Why is it not until 2020 that we will hear Margot, the first lesbian voice of a Holocaust survivor? Margot has been interviewed several times for Holocaust archives. The story she told me was actually contained in all of her testimonies in the well-known Holocaust archives - but it was hidden. Dita appeared as the 'best friend'. Nobody questioned why she was so important to Margot."
  • ALT1:... that Margot Heumann is the first woman known to have survived the Nazi concentration camps despite being both Jewish and queer? Source: Der Tagesspiegel, in German. Translation of relevant quote: "Margot's story is the first evidence of a queer woman who survived the concentration camps as a Jew."
  • ALT2:... that Margot Heumann survived the Holocaust, moved to New York, and spent time in the lesbian bars of Greenwich Village? Source: Der Tagesspiegel, in German. Translation of relevant quote: "In the early 1950s, a young, dark-haired, slim woman sometimes visited the lesbian bars in New York's Greenwich Village to accompany the regular Lu Burke. Burke worked for New Yorker magazine, the brunette partner in an advertising agency. The young woman's name was Margot Heumann. She came from war-torn Europe and was recognizable as a Holocaust survivor by a tattoo on her forearm."

• Reviewed: Cal Anderson
• Comment: It'd be fantastic if this could run in June for Pride Month.

Created by Ezlev (talk). Self-nominated at 23:30, 7 June 2021 (UTC).

Interesting life drama, on good sources, offline sources accepted AGF, and I can read the German. No copyvio obvious. I find the lesbian bars a bit too harmless, and prefer ALT1. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:00, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Lesbian or queer

Is there a reason why this person is automatically called 'queer' on her page/the Did you Know section? Some LGBT people do see this terminology as offensive and politically loaded and so it's very much a matter of personal choice to adopt it, which she doesn't seem to have done. The article mentions her specifically coming out as a lesbian, so surely this would be a better, less ambiguous and more neutral way to identify her in a short summary? Is there anything wrong with saying 'both Jewish and lesbian'?

Requested move 26 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. The nominator has provided thorough, guideline-backed reasoning. There is no opposition to the move itself, there is only a content stylizing objection which is ought to be handled in a separate discussion.(non-admin closure) Colonestarrice (talk) 02:03, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

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Margot Heumann → Margot Heuman – I am proposing a title change and a matching use of Heuman throughout the text. Of the four in-depth publicly available sources cited on this page, two of them refer to the subject as Heumann (namely the Holocaust Museum source and the Hájková source in Der Tagesspiegel) while the other two refer to her as Heuman (the Laufer and Museum of Tolerance links). I can't access the non-redacted version of the academic piece by Hájková, but regardless that is not independent of the other sources since it's the same author as the Der Tagesspiegel piece, so it's fair to say that the sources cited here are evenly split. In that light, I propose moving the page for two reasons. First, my reading of other sources (sources not yet cited on this page) is that they mostly prefer Heuman. The Holocaust Museum, which refers to her as Heumann in the bio cited here, calls her Heuman in this interview collection. Other contemporary events refer to her as Heuman. An entire play was staged about her that used the name Heuman, and coverage of it covered her under the name Heuman. Many fewer, and lower-profile, sources use Heumann. Secondly, even if reliable sources were more ambivalent about what to call her (and they clearly do prefer Heuman), under naming guidelines like WP:NAMECHANGES we should be inclined to follow name changes unless they are very clearly not used by reliable sources. Especially in a WP:BLP we need a good reason not to use a subject's chosen name, like consistent avoidance of that name in reliable sources or notability under a pre-existing name, none of which apply here. So the subject's chosen name of Heuman should be used in the article title and throughout the text. - Astrophobe (talk) 23:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support, because she changed her last name to "Heuman," per [3]. Methyllithium (talk) 23:51, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I am neutral to the page name move, but oppose using it thoughout the tect. She was born Heumann, and the whole story in Europe was Heumann, and is remembered by many as Heumann. I don't even see a strong reason to move. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:21, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Completely agree with not referring to the subject as “queer”

Completely agree. This woman should not be referred to as “queer.” How totally anachronistic and disrespectful. She was a Jewish lesbian who spent much of her life married to a man.

This revision of the word “queer” is totally out of place here and very offensive 2603:7000:2600:34CF:CC3A:9B3A:F0AD:C680 (talk) 20:44, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

It looks like the sourcing of that claim is this article in Der Tagesspiegel. I don't know German, but if I'm right (in what seem to be pretty safe assumptions) that lesbische means "lesbian" while queere means "queer", then I think the source could be pretty comfortably used to support either assertion. The claim that she was the first queer Jewish woman to have survived a concentration camp is more directly attested in the source ("Margots Geschichte ist das erste Zeugnis einer queeren Frau, die als Jüdin die KZs überlebte"). The claim that she was the first lesbian Jewish woman known to have survived a concentration camp is also a fair enough conclusion, I think, so long as lesbian is a subcategory of queer. However, as far as I see, it's not directly stated in the piece. So on the basis of the sourcing in the page, I see no clear reason to prefer replacing the word queer throughout the article with the word lesbian. Do you have sources to support the assertion that the language in the Der Tagesspiegel source is incorrect when applied to the page subject? - Astrophobe (talk) 21:25, 28 November 2021 (UTC)