Talk:PayPal/Archive 2: Difference between revisions

Archives

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1. – October 2006

PayPal Security Key

Is the recent addition of the PayPal Security Key Physical Device worth mentioning?Toolofthesystem 19:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

"See also"

I've removed the entire "See also" system. Wikipedia is WP:NOT a web directory; though such a list might be appropriate for an article about online payment systems, none of the sites listed there are about PayPal (except for paypalsucks.com, and we don't link to attack sites, and the article about it is worthless.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 06:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

PayPal Targets Online Games

PayPal just threatened to cut off Gaia Online's donation services because of it's casino minigames... keep in mind that the only thing people donate to Gaia for is Donation Items. NOT Casino Tokens (which have to be bought with ordinary virtual gold), nor the Casino Tickets used to buy more virtual items.

Gaia's not a gambling site, it's a forum with a casino-style minigame tacked on. They may as well attack Microsoft because there's a way to play Solitaire 'Vegas' style.Veled 15:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• Got a URL for this? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I added it. 68.13.99.150 22:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, from the link, it appears to be a done deal. Why is this under "criticism"? Even the link you provide isn't complaining about it. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

CAPTCHA

OK, this article claims PayPal started them; CAPTCHA claims it was AltaVista. Which? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

FEES!

I think someone should post the fee table for PayPal Business/Premier users ... I can't believe it isnt already up... if I remember correctly its 2.9% + 0.30$...and it changes if you recieve more money each month.

--Gautam3 05:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• That's really the kind of thing best suited by simply pointing to PayPal's own site. We'd have to take it all from there anyway, and anyone who might want to use it would want to look there (where it's authoritative) rather than here. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

we definitely need to link to pages like www.paypalwarning.com and paypalsucks.com. they have true stories of users who have been duped by the illegal bank of paypal — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oracle21 (talk • contribs) 01:18, October 22, 2006 (UTC)

• The editor who put in stuff like "corrupt and evil" in the introduction to the article needs to learn about WP:NPOV. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
• There are legit complaints on that site.
  • Perhaps, but it's still an attack site, and we don't include attack sites. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarification/Explanation

This article needs more explanation on the process of using paypal.

Is it that: You verify your bank account with Paypal, then transfer funds to it and Paypal pays the sellers? And doing it electronically through paypal is faster (after you have funds transferred in it) than going through paypal with a credit/debit card (which would take a few days to process)?

Also, the difference between Paypal's electronic funds, debit card, and credit card use needs to be explained. I don't see on the site anything about debit cards and their use. Can the debit card be used as a credit card? --70.111.218.254 13:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

paypal criticism

I was pointed out that "frozen accounts" is regarded as a problem with paynet - and googled a bit around it.

I came over the website paypalsucks.com - which particularly critices paypal for:

• having unfair Terms of Service
• having an understaffed customer support department
• frozen account problem. It seems like PayPal automatically closes accounts (and funds!) on suspicions of fraud. Innocent people get their accounts frozen from time to time, and when this happens, it is very difficult to get ones money back.
• customers are beeing "ripped off", chargeback risk and credit card fees are beeing used as an argument for having high charges on transactions - but those charges are applied to any transactions, regardless of whether it's credit card transactions or not.

I suppose at least the frozen accounts problem, plus a link to the paypalsucks site would be appropriate.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.203.242.203 (talk • contribs)

this site has been covered numerous times. Please read the archives, and no it isn't appropriate.--Crossmr 05:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Paypalsucks.com does not represent a neutral point of view, articles should be base in facts with proof and referencesNtt ng 06:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

"Paypal also charged Wikipedia Foundation more than $46k in charges in 2006, an unconscienable act as Wikipedia is a non-profit service to the world."

I saw someone added that line, "Paypal also charged Wikipedia Foundation more than $46k in charges in 2006, an unconscienable act as Wikipedia is a non-profit service to the world." It is unsourced. I would love to find a source on that, even something on Wikipedia. Would anyone know anything for hints? Please. Thank you. DyslexicEditor 20:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Sure. Just look at the Wikimedia financial statement. The statement does not, however, describe it as unconscionable, whether spelled correctly or not. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Because PayPal forced Wikimedia to take them as a form of payment. Wikibofh_(talk) 03:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the $46k statement is clearly true but I disagree with the unconscionable part. It is clearly unsourced POV. $46k is reasonable considering that there is no public electronic payment system in the vast majority of countries. All private electronic payment systems have always charged transaction fees, since the huge numbers of programmers and engineers who create such systems do not work for free. --Coolcaesar 06:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

That $46K would likely be the standard Paypal fee for processing something on the order of two million dollars worth of donations. I'd be willing to bet that at least 2% of those donations happened because PayPal was available -- the service reduces charitable giving to "click click click", and some of us are remarkably lazy. Well, I am...I know that if I can use PayPal I'm more likely to donate a small amount, the bread-and-butter $20 sort of donations that are the lifeblood of many non-profits nowadays. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Paypal Criticism and Criticism Links

• I went to see why Paypal criticism links were delted and found this in the log. "because they're not at all good sites". That is your opinion, others like myself think they are great sites.

13:53, 15 August 2006 Jpgordon (Talk | contribs) (→Why are the critical sites being deleted? - because they're not at all good sites). Jpgordon is or was a programmer at eBay (which owns paypal) and continues to delete information that is critcal of paypal. Please do not delete information that is critical of paypal. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV Router 17:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

• No links to attack sites. That's it. We've discussed that here repeatedly. Consensus has been consistent about that throughout Wikipedia, and has been backed up by ArbCom decisions. See the archives of this talk page for more. Feel free to actually include well-sourced, verifiable criticisms of PayPal; simply linking to sucks.com sites isn't within policy --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
• Three critical sites were identified as OK to post "a small number of relevant links" Posting Critical Sites Router 00:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  • And if you can change the ArbCom ruling that attack sites do not belong anywhere on Wikipedia except, perhaps, in articles about those attack sites, they can be included here. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 04:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• Everything I have seen supports criticism and links to it. Please provide explicit link here to ArbCom decision and support for your comment which states, "ArbCom ruling that attack sites do not belong anywhere on Wikipedia..." . Router 15:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  • There's a difference between "criticism", which you are free to insert (supported, of course, by verifiable reliable sources into the article, and "attack sites", which are covered by Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MONGO#Links to attack site: Links to attack sites may be removed by any user; such removals are exempt from 3RR. Deliberately linking to an attack site may be grounds for blocking. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• You are reading this out of context. You need to read the whole article to understand what is considered an attack site. This case is about "attack sites" which "purport to disclose detailed information concerning the names, geographical locations, ISP's, and personal attributes of various Wikipedia administrators and editors." Not sites that are critical of a company or government body. See Outing sites as attack sites Router 17:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Feel free to bring that issue up in the appropriate forum. If you think something like "fuckpaypal.net" isn't an attack site, you need to convince ArbCom of it. I'll recuse from the case, certainly. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• The case you cite is one about attacking a persons identity, not criticising a company. Router 17:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Doesn't matter. The phrase is "attack sites"; it is true that the particular attack sites are about attacking individuals in that case, but the principle is not limited to those. Anyway, I give up; someone else less involved will come around and do exactly the same thing, I imagine. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, WP:EL and WP:RS is the basis for the removal of this site. Do not re-add it. Syrthiss 15:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• The external links need to be balanced. Add some criticism keeps it neutral. See Undue Weight This is the reason I am keeping it in. Router 17:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticism would be perfectly acceptable if it was published in a reliable source. A BBC or CNN article about Paypal fraud or something along those lines would be reasonable. A site that simply lists complaints that people have made is not acceptable because there is no way to verify that the information provided is accurate. 74.114.148.69 21:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

"Criticism would be perfectly acceptable if it was published in a reliable source." And not just a "reliable" source, but, indeed, a journalistic, scholastic or other legitimate Secondary Source (per WP: NOR). As for the attack sites, it would be relevant to make links to news sources which document a PayPalSucks.com (for example), but it is questionable whether to put a link to the site itself on here. It is germane to the topic at hand, which is PayPal, it does represent a significant problem with the processing, but it is, after all, a fringe voice. So, I think a fair compromise would be to add a link to a second-source website accounting for PayPal's problems with payment processing and which may bring up an "attack" site, link to the PayPalSucks.com wikipedia page (because it is relevant) and to address what major criticisms have been brought up in secondary sources (which is already done.) I don't think I've said anything new, but that's my thought on it, anyway. -Bordello 00:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

What is paypals REAL URL?

I noticed that at the top of the article there is a link to paypals homepage and it has it as :

http:www.paypal.com

but then it has it down the bottom as :

https:www.paypal.com

(The second URL has the letter 'S' after 'http' but the first does not)

Maybe there could be some clarifcation as to why this is. Someone could suspect that one of the sites may be a fraudulent copy of the real one to get people to log in their personal details.

Just a thought.

161.50.48.2 00:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• Both work. The http: one just redirects to the https: one. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree with the above, both work. But this brought up something I hadn't thought of - phishers could easily edit a Wikipedia link to direct visitors to their own phishing site. I guess this is caught by editors quickly when this happens... smileyborg 15:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Card/bank account

"PayPal account holders must be 18 or over with a debit/credit card or bank account and an e-mail address."

Please check the correctness of this. Why is either a card or a bank account needed? PayPal offers several ways both to add and to withdraw funds: Adding funds:

• Using a card (credit/debit)
• By having PayPal charge the money from a bank account (available in some countries only, such as the United States)
• By paying in cash at a bank account, post office or similar (available in some countries only, such as Sweden)
• By transferring the bank from your bank account to PayPal's bank account (available in some countries only, such as Sweden)

Withdrawing funds:

• Money inserted to a bank account (available in some countries only)
• Cheque sent out by mail (available in some countries only)

If you only send money, and you pay in cash at a bank, why do you need either a bank account or a card? If you only receive money, and you receive the money as a cheque, why do you need either a bank account or a card? Or, let's say that you receive money from others, and then spend all of that money on other things, and spend no money other than the money you receive using PayPal, why do you need a bank account or a card? (58.188.97.134 18:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC))

Because PayPal forces you to "verify" your address and to do that, they want either your credit card or bank account number. If you don't want to give this info, or you don't have either, they refuse to give you your money if you have any in your account.(75.21.163.212 08:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

Please note that a bank account or a credit card is not a "MUST". users can open accounts, receive money and spend the money without having a bank account or a credit/debit card, however, they MUST be 18 yo and have an email address. Ntt ng 06:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism clean-up again

I'm going to clean up the criticism section again. Wikipedia policy requires that all information be sourced and be neutral point of view. The requirement for any item in the criticism would be that:

1. The problem can be verified as existing
2. The problem be labeled as a negative or criticism by a reliable source

Just because a company does something you don't like doesn't mean its a criticism shared by a non-trivial viewpoint. Applicable policies are Wikipedia:Attribution and Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. A reasonable time will be given for anyone who wants to add sources to that section to do so.--Crossmr 20:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Unique Selling Proposition (USP)

I am surprised that there is no comparison of payment methods to show how unique PayPal is as compared to other payment systems. I understand that PayPal wins hands down in many situations, not only for on-line sales, but also for small fund transfers ... especially for transfers with and between countries outside North America and Europe ... but do not have numbers to compare. Does anyone have such information? Enquire 06:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Safety & Protection Policies

In the second paragraph it sound more like a personal opinion, if it is you may want to quote part of that paragraph. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ntt ng (talk • contribs) 06:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Revived "Why are the critical sites being deleted?"

Sorry, I have been out of the loop recently. Anyway, I don't see that at all about the sites you mentioned being developed to drive traffic and the article being created being padded with keywords. It's one of the articles I point my clients to in order to understand the Paypal phishing problem. It's one of the few out there that I have seen that actually discusses the problem in detail and how to avoid it. That isn't the characteristic of a SPAM article. —The preceding comment was added by User:ibroker 19, March 2007