Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War: Difference between revisions

Infobox image(s)

What is the reason for this revert, @Snowstormfigorion? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 05:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The thing is I don't see that there's a reason for placing a collage in the infobox; the images are identical in purpose of demonstration and sentiment to the ones in the body, which, per MOS:PERTINENCE, are much ample and number 40+ and include multiple galleries. One of the images in the collage, albeit slightly cropped, is already used in the body. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 11:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@Snowstormfigorion: For me, I don't see a reason to place an exclusively Israeli picture in the infobox. We can either replace it with a more neutral picture or use a collage. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The image is not meant to portray one side over the other; rather, it merely captures a pivotal moment in the conflict. As for the collage, as per the above, I don't see that there's a need for whatsoever given that the article is ladened with images and galleries/collages in the body. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 12:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

How is multiple images not superior to a single image? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

See the above; the number of images used in the infobox by itself is impertinent. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 16:40, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

"The number of images used in the infobox by itself is impertinent"? Then why have you reverted my edit? This doesn't make sense. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:47, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Impertinent as in simply more images are not "superior" to less and vice versa; again, see the above for why a collage in the infobox is redundant in the case of this article, which further applies to 1948 Palestine war. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

So your opinion is that it doesn't matter either way whether we use one or multiple images? Myself and seemingly Makeandtoss prefer multiple images so why not go with that? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Because that's not how this works, we don't merely go by opinions or preference; I've presented based on policy why a collage in the articles(s) is not needed, unless you're willing to refute this in a parallel manner a notion alone does not constitute a counterargument. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 17:17, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

How can I refute that "a college in the articles(s) is not needed"? Obviously it isn't needed but the question is is it preferable. I and another prefer it. You oppose it. I think we'll need more input from others. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

If it's not needed and "obviously" so, it's WP:NONCONSTRUCTIVE. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 17:35, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The 1973 War was far shorter, less consequential than the 1948 War, and has an image collage. I think the article should feature a collage. Lightiggy (talk) 01:50, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Seems it is three to one in favour of using multiple images. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Drop the multiple mini images from one that is accessible for all. Moxy🍁 02:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Support multiple images per NPOV. It's standard for major war articles. See World War I and World War II. Besides, the flag image is before the entry of Arab regular armies the following day, when the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine really became the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. إيان (talk) 03:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The flag image is from 10 March 1949 I believe. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Moxy, not sure I'm following where you're getting it; could you please further elaborate? Snowstormfigorion (talk) 04:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Snowstormfigorion: Reverting three times against multiple editors in an ARBPIA article is WP:edit warring. Please self-revert. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted IOHANNVSVERVS as per WP:NOTDEMOCRACY; major changes to ARBPIA articles are decided through community discourse and consensus, see WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS, not through vote-tallying. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 09:31, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Snowstormfigorion: That is correct, but consensus is established through talk page discussions, not through edit warring your preferred version. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, last time I reverted was nine days ago, the two reverts were two days in between and I explained throughly in the talk page the rationale behind them, with the reverts being to the status quo and as opposed to my "preferred version"; wouldn't call this edit warring, but I guess by some definition it could be. If so, then my apologies, keeping this here henceforth. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 11:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Implemented above consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 11:53, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: Again and as per the above, this is a major change to a contentious topic, ARBPIA article, see WP:NHC and please self-revert until further editorial input is given and consensus is evidently clear. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 12:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The consensus IS clear. Selfstudier (talk) 12:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

No, it's not. As per WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS, discussion is still ongoing and currently only involves a handful editors; again, please self-revert. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 12:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

As I've said above I committed myself to keep the discussion in the talk page, however, Selfstudier, it’s not your jurisdiction to decide that consensus has been reached in an ongoing discussion concerning a major change to a CTOP article. Moreover, as said above, more community and editorial input is needed for such change and an WP:RFC would also be constructive in reaching a collective community consensus as per WP:CONACHIEVE. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 10:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

See ur talk page. Selfstudier (talk) 10:25, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Seen, see yours. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 10:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Just so you know, guys, there's this wonderful little template called {{outdent}} designed for situations exactly like this. In my experience it's a little easier to assume good faith and resolve disputes without outside help when you're not reading and responding to text jammed into an inch (2.54 cm) or so. Daniel Case (talk) 20:35, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2024

Change "At the end of a series of offensives that began April 1948, in which Zionist forces had conquered cities and territories in Mandatory Palestine in preparation for the establishment of a Jewish state, Zionist leaders announced the Israeli Declaration of Independence on 14 May 1948.[16] The following morning, after the termination of the British Mandate, Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq entered Palestine." to " At the end of a series of offensives that began April 1948, in which Zionist forces had conquered cities and territories in Mandatory Palestine in preparation for the establishment of a Jewish state, Zionist leaders announced the Israeli Declaration of Independence on 14 May 1948.[16] The following morning, after the termination of the British Mandate, Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq entered Palestine."

to

"Zionist leaders announced the Israeli Declaration of Independence on 14 May 1948, and the following morning, after the termination of the British Mandate, Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq invaded Palestine and Israel."

There is no citation indicating that "Zionist forces had conquered cities and territories in Mandatory Palestine in preparation for the establishment of a Jewish state", because there is not any historical record of this. There is also no credible citation detailing any "series of offensives that began April 1948". 2607:FEA8:539F:FA00:9C3C:BD87:A464:1402 (talk) 14:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Not done, there is citation 16 in the lead and 151 in the article body.Selfstudier (talk) 14:44, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

"Jewish bribes"

There's clearly a problem with the section which reads "due to Jewish bribes" and also claims " invaded territories of the former Palestinian mandate allocated for a future Arab state." I tagged with dubious and better source needed. I'll have to check what wording the Yoav Gelber source uses, who should be reliable, but I really doubt that this is the framing and context he uses. Andre🚐 19:24, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I checked Gelber and it does indeed say on p.11 "encouraged by Jewish bribes," without a footnote, this is in the introduction and there are several other occurrences of "bribe" in the book on p. 28, 38, 264, 61, 57, 257, 108, which might shed a bit more light on this, but I'll remove the dubious tag since it's from a reliable source and replace it with a clarify tag. Andre🚐 19:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

"Jewish exodus from Muslim world" due for lede?

Is the following due for the lede of this article? (Mentioned after the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight):

A similar number of Jews moved to Israel during the three years following the war, including 260,000 from the surrounding Arab states.

An RfC about the same question at 1948 Palestine war resulted in consensus against including this content in the lede. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said in the edit summary, 1948 Palestine war is a different topic from 1948 Arab-Israeli war. If they were the same topic they'd presumably be merged. I think it is indeed an important outcome of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and belongs. Andre🚐 02:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

The 1948 Arab-Israeli war is not "a different topic" from the 1948 Palestine war – it was a part of it.

I don't see how the RfC at 1948 Palestine war wouldn't apply to this article as well.

You'll need to make reference to RS to support your position that the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world was "an important outcome of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war", especially when the RfC at 1948 Palestine war concluded that "there were multiple sources, primarily Morris, used to show that the exodus was at most an indirect result of the war. While there were sources provided that attempted to discuss the exodus in context of the war, they were also rebutted." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

While the expulsions and flights of Jews didn't start in 1948 they were intensified by the war. The 1948 Arab-Israeli war is a specific war while the 1948 Palestine War is a more general description of a wider topic. If that were not the case, it should be merged as a WP:CONTENTFORK. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War was the proximate event along with the partition and the rising unrest that led to a significant exodus of Jews, primarily from Arab countries in the Middle East and North Africa. The 1948 war exacerbated existing tensions and triggered widespread anti-Jewish sentiment in Arab countries.See For example, Benoussan p. 361, 371, 375 talk about how the war was the event which led to the situation in Egypt, see also Beinin which explicitly ties the unrest in Egypt to the partition. Gat p. 46 discusses the plan to expel Jews from Iraq after the war in 1949. See to put a fine point on it, in Egypt: . Rioting against Jews occurred in November 1945, then resumed in June-November 1948, the latter time inspired by the war with Israel... some Palestinians have come to see Jewish sovereignty in Israel in terms of a population exchange, and as the necessary price to be paid for the Arab expulsions. ‘Isam as-Sirtawi, who participated in some well-known terrorist operations but later excelled in seeking contact with the Israelis, told Ha-'Olam Ha-zé editor Uri Avneir that he gave up terrorism against Israel and instead began promoting negotiations when he realized that Israel serves as the asylum for Jews expelled from Arab countries; and that there is no going back along that path. Sabri Jiryis, director of the Institute of Palestine Studies in Beirut, enumerated in 1975 the factors leading to the establishment of the State of Israel. The Arab states had much to do with this, for they expelled the Jews “in a most ugly fashion, and after confiscating their possessions or taking control thereof at the lowest price.” ...“It is true that we Israelis brought about the exodus of the Arabs from their land in the war of 1948 . . . and that we took control of their property. In return however you Arabs caused the expulsion of a like number of Jews from Arab countries since 1948 until today. Most of these went to Israel after you seized control of their property in one way or another. What happened, therefore, is merely a kind of ‘population and property transfer,’ the consequences of which both sides have to bear. Thus Israel gathers in the Jews from Arab countries and the Arab countries are obliged in turn to settle the Palestinians within their own borders and work towards a solution of the problem”. ..Accounts of the late 1940s widely assume that the Arab exodus occurred first, followed by the Jewish expulsion. Kirkbride refers to “a decision of the Iraqi government to retaliate for the expulsion of Arab refugees from Palestine by forcing the majority of the Jewish population of Iraq to go to Israel.” In Libya, too, there is a similar tendency to associate the uprooting of the Jewish community with the establishment of the State of Israel. “Jews,” John Wright argues, “were forced out of Libya as a result of events leading up and following the foundation of the State of Israel in May 1948.” But these accounts oversimplify the actual sequence of events Andre🚐 18:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

You're relitigating the previous RfC.

"The 1948 Arab-Israeli war is a specific war while the 1948 Palestine War is a more general description of a wider topic." This is nonsensical - the Arab-Israeli war was a part of the 1948 Palestine war. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

If that RFC was about the lead of another article, it doesn't apply to this one. Andre🚐 22:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Undue and indirectly related to the war. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

It's pretty clear to me that its completely the opposite. ABHammad (talk) 14:21, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Just run an RFC asking whether the result of the other RFC should apply to this page as well, should satisfy everyone. For the record, I will be !voting that it obviously does. Selfstudier (talk) 14:26, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

It’s the exact same logic, and the claim that the two are distinct when one is a part of the other is absurd. Decades of immigration has nothing to do with this war, and we have an RFC that already settled that question. nableezy - 13:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

This is highly relevant, per Benny Morris

“ The war indirectly created a second, major refugee problem. Partly because of the clash of Jewish and Arab arms in Palestine, some five to six hundred thousand Jews who lived in the Arab world emigrated, were intimidated into flight, or were expelled from their native countries ”

and other sources.

The RfC was about the other article and was likely influenced by canvassing. Alaexis_¿question? 14:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

That's an aspersion unless you have evidence for it. If not, strike it please. Also the other RFC close says specifically "As such, there were multiple sources, primarily Morris, used to show that the exodus was at most an indirect result of the war" (ie not DUE) and yet you have inserted it again based on that source, so that looks very much like tendentious editing. Selfstudier (talk) 14:48, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The canvassing was from the side pushing for this material lol. Just like that article, introducing indirect consequences as though it were a major aspect due for the lead is absurd. Something that was "partly because of the clash" is not a major topic of the war. It would be just silly if we didn’t already have an RFC about this exact same thing in the article on the overall war. It is tendentious and disruptive because we already did. Alaexis' disruptive edit should be reverted. nableezy - 14:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

References