Talk:Confucianism: Difference between revisions

"Rite (禮, Lǐ) stands here for a complex set of ideas hard to render in Western languages. Its Chinese character previously had the religious meaning of "sacrifice": 禮 is 示 'altar' on the left of 曲 on 豆 representing a vase full of flowers, offered as a sacrifice to the gods." Who in heaven wrote this crap??? I deleted it. Please check out the 214 kangxi-radikals before writing bout characters. btw...豆 = bean --luke--

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A poster below stated that Confucianism is physical, and not spiritual, but this is not true, it is a false dichotomy. --Michael

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removed redirect now that there is some more content here. Added some old lecture notes of mine to what was little more than a stub when i got to it Could we ask a native Chinese speaker to pinyinise the names and terms? Thanks --- clasqm

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I added an outline and some content on the history of confucianism. Also there is a section on "shi" and the relationship between Confucianism and the Chinese state which I think is very historically inaccurate, but I've left it until I can think of something better to write Chenyu

Thanks, Chenyu!

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Confucianism was not and has never been any religion. This is proved, in my opinion, as Confucius accepted the heavenly mandat (kind of God/holy law) as the supreme and only rightous way to go about state governing, family life and so on. He was obsessed with the rules of propriety. During the Han dynasty, however, Master Zhongni was idolized and often given "super powers" by fans.
I just visited China and people repeatedly reminded me that Confucius was no God, but "probably one of the greatest thinkers in the world"!
Sigg3.net

I think you are correct. It's really more of a philosophy than a religion, though in practice it may get intermingled with bits of Taoism or Buddhism, especially as 'folk religion'. Wesley

I think that's really strange, since Taoism goes for the spiritual while Confucianism goes for the physical. It's also interesting to know that Master Zhongni met the founder of Taoism, mr. Laozi (which means "old baby" as he was born with white hair) accidently since he was going to browse China's archive of scrolls and Laozi happened to be the archivist. During the 1 month of studying the old rules of propriety at this library Zhongni actually learns more from Laozi than from the books.

Sigg3.net

The above story has been the claim from Taosism radicals as their school of philosophy is more superior than Confucianism. User:kt2

The above story is supported by historical records from that time. Again, Taoism and Confucianism doesn't have any ties and should not be compared. Taoism is focusing inwards while Confucianism is focusing outwards (very simplified, of course).

Sigg3.net

I also consider Confucianism as a philosopy more than a religion. But when talking about Taoism, it can mean a religion or a philosopy. This is kinder confusing in English but in Chinese we have Dao Jiao and Dao Jia which is definitely not the same thing. And Laozi means Master Lao rather than Old baby, just like Kungzi stands for Master Kung. --Lorenzarius 10:32 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

Wish to remove something

Extract I propose to remove (I don't see any way to improve and I feel it's useless as it is now)

Was there a Confucianism? One of the problems in discussing the history of Confucianism is the question of what Confucianism is. In his book Manufacturing Confucianism, David Jensen claims that our modern image of Confucius and Confucianism, which is that of a wise symbol of learning and a state-sponsored quasi-religion, did not exist in China from time immemorial, but was manufactured by European Jesuits in order to portray Chinese society to Europeans. The notion of Confucianism was then borrowed back by Chinese who used it for their own purposes.

To simplify this discussion, we shall simply define Confucianism as any system of thinking that has at its basis the works that are regarded as the "Confucian classics," but even this definition runs into problems as it is not clear what are the "Confucian classics."

By the way, defining what the classics are is far from impossible and the fact that the corpus changed with time don't imply that there is no corpus. I think the current article could be improved a lot, for example by reading http://afpc.asso.fr/wengu/files/ext_cache.php?url=http://www.rep.routledge.com/philosophy/articles/entry/G/G001/G001SECT4.html gbog 16:23, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

You may not like the second para, but the first appears useful. Surely the section can be improved by being added to - David Gerard 16:47, May 15, 2004 (UTC)

I not very good at refactoring and my english is crap but I can try to work on the article. I think the interesting point in the first paragraph is that, maybe, the "confucianist" didn't see themselves as a particular group sharing particular ideas, and therefore didn't feel to use a common name like 'confucianist', because, in a way, confucianism was the main stream and only needed to be called something like "orthodoxy" (some being more orthodox than others). But reading the paragraph, I feel that it is said that no "coherent ideological stream linked to Confucean classics" existed before westerners coined a name for it...

Well. I should work on it. But I should begin with the begining. The first lines of the article are, imho, not very accurate : I think that Confucius has not "founded" confucianism. He had ethico-political ideas and shared them with disciples but the school itself is probably founded by disciples of disciples. Then, i would say, instead : Confucianism (儒家 Pinyin: rújiā "The School of the Scholars"), sometimes translated as the School of Literati, is an East Asian ethical and philosophical system followed by people in China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam and other Asian countries for more than two thousand years. / The belief system is named, in Western countries, after 孔&#23376 (Confucius, Master Kong), who lived in the late 6th and early 5th centuries BC, because Confucianists see in him the greatest Master and study his attributed Classics.

You will think I'm an erazorman :) but I would remove this, also (because it's place is in Confucius article and had very little to the understanding of confucianism): Confucius was born into a middle class family, although the family was actually in the superior class of the current dynasty. His Chinese name was later latinised to Confucius by Jesuit missionaries. As an adult, Confucius went from state to state trying to teach their rulers. He is credited with a number of books, the best-known of which is the Analects, a collection of his sayings that was compiled and edited to its modern form during the Han dynasty.

I think I see your point. I don't actually know the area well. But if you can re-order things sensibly, then I can clean up the English afterwards - David Gerard 10:58, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

I've written few pages and am currently trying to feed batabase with it. I hope it will work before I go to bed. Thanks in advance if you take the (long) time required to make something readable from my thing. gbog 14:51, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Good content so far :-) I've done some copyedit of the intro and first section, up to the beginning of ==Meritocracy==. I've tried to keep to correcting the grammar and slight untangling of sentences and word choice - please check for inadvertent changes to the content - David Gerard 12:25, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks a lot ! I read the result and it's really nice. I didn't see any changes in the content for now. I may add other paragraphs later. gbog 17:20, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

I have added the clause: 'as a "translation" of the ancient indigenous traditions known as "Ru Jia,"' in the "first paragraph" under discussion above, because I contend that the author of that paragraph isn't being very clear. -- Michael

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I'm suggesting re-examining Jensen's work and re-editing this part here. I think what Jensen might be saying is that while there was a Ru Jia, "Confucianism" was intended by the West to describe Ru Jia, but instead the West reinterpreted Ru Jia and invented a construct that doesn't actually represent Ru Jia. If this was what Jensen mean, I suggest that you explain it, because in your main article Ru Jia is equated with Confucianism, and when you say "was there Confucianism," it's as though you're saying "was there Ru Jia."

-- Michael

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This idea that the sole cultivation of Virtue is enough for the King to rule his Kingdom is, on one side, probably related to early shamanistic beliefs, like that of the King (Wang, 王) being the axe between the Sky, the Men and the Earth.

Shouldn't "axe" be "axle" here? I'll make the change later if no one objects. --Eric Forste 00:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Negative aspect of Confucianism and New confucianism

Rites

I thing the "Rites" must be futher expanded to accomodate the useless aspect of rites

Study of confucianism must learn that not everything state in the writing of confucius are true. Indeed, some are forms without substatnce. For example, confucianism promote the use of "rites" to pay repect of deceased people. Thus some deceased "King" titled by the later , are not real King, some ancestor are simply a sheperd, blacksmith,etc On the other hand, some councilman mean by Confucius as real king. For example, Confucius claim the northen tribe Qing King as "councilman", given the reason that the Qing King did not earn the title from Zhou dynasty emperor.

Negative aspect of Confucianism

Rites and minority discrimination Although Confucianism practice the rites, Confucianism are direspect the the female and foreigners.

Rites and excessive expenses Historically, rites also lead to excessive expenses and unrealistic ritual. It happens that any kingdom that practice the rites ritual maintain more than 300 temples over the country for the deceased relative.

filial piety and corruptions Under the teaching, people with deceased parent must quit their job and stay at home for 3 years. This has lead to heavy corruption of all level of government officer in order to earn money to support living during the 3 years filial piety ritual.

Meritocracy sound better than you though. Indeed, Confucianism come with a face of literacture facism. The Confucianism officer in power has ask the authority to suppress teaching and idea that are not related to confucianism (摆拙百家,独尊孔教).

Loyalty Ironically, The Sing(新) dynasty emperor are a confusianism follower who seized the power from the Han-Dynasty.

The perfect gentleman The best way to become a perfect gentlemen is "staying out of trouble"(明哲保身).

Modern confucianism

Modern confucianism is a idea promoted by 20th century confucianism follower. It is mean to remove the negative and overhype aspect of confucianism. One should not confuse the meaning of modern confucianism with "old script" and "new scripts".

--sltan

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Why are there so many dates mentioned in the article? There are dates (and not just years) for the birth and death of Qin Shihuang, who is not even the focus of this article. Can we get rid of these?

The naming conventions are also inconsistent. We have "Xun Zi" but "Han Feizi", "Han Wu Di" and "Qin Shi Huang". These should be Xun Zi, Hanfei Zi, Han Wudi and Qin Shihuang, should they not?

Jiawen

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One of the negative results of confucianism is sometimes said to be the lower status of women and treatment of women in some Asian societies, especially before modernisation. Can this be integrated into the article somewhere? Xaqua 03:47, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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The material about the Script Controversy is good, but feels very vague. When were the New Scripts reconstructed? Who feels that the Old Scripts are more authoritative? Can we give textural citations for these things? Et cetera. Jiawen 07:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

--- The vast majority of cultures in history have treated women relatively poorly and most of the major religions have treated women poorly. To mention whether or not women were treated poorly as a result of Confucian thought is precarious because it is found in the vast majority of cultures. Kennethtennyson

Is Confucianism a religion

It's obviously not a religion, as explained in the section later. It does not relate to afterlife or a supreme being, rather a way of life in connection to society. So why does the first paragraph states that it is a religion? Mandel July 1, 2005 10:35 (UTC)

Response to Mandel: 1) By what criteria do you determine that religion = belief in afterlife or a supreme being? See Emile Durkheim's Elemental Forms of Religion. 2) Although he expressed skepticism, Kong Tzi (Confucius) did not completely deny the afterlife. His committment to ancestral veneration and honoring of spirits probably imply at least belief in the possibility of afterlife. Furthermore, it is not at all self-evident that Kong Tzi did not believe in a supreme being. In fact, some of his teachings about Tian signifies his personal faith in Tian. An important thing to remember is that classical Chinese thought did not contain Western dichotomy of supernatural v. natural (or at least not to the point of a paradigm of polar opposites.) -- Michael, July 29, 2005