Talk:Anti-Americanism: Difference between revisions

Peer Reviewed Articles

I've looked at every article in that list, and see no evidence that any are peer-reviewed. One of them isn't even published. Colin, you reverted my edit. What do you propose? Life.temp (talk) 19:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Is absence of evidence, evidence of absence? Colin4C (talk) 19:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes. If somebody doesn't claim to be say, a police-officer, and displays no badge or other identifying features, it wouldn't make much sense to insist on calling him a police-officer. There is little or no evidence of life on Mars, thus, we don't have a section in the Mars article asserting: "There is life on Mars." Life.temp (talk) 19:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

So, on your logic, as there is no evidence that the authors of the articles are not Martians are we to assume that they therefore come from the Red Planet? Are the grounds for thinking that the articles in International Studies Quarterly are not peer reviewed any greater than the grounds for thinking they are peer reviewed? I have edited several academic journals and it an invariable rule that all articles are peer reviewed - thus saving many an academic reputation I might add! Colin4C (talk) 19:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is proof that International Studies Quarterly is peer reviewed: http://www.isq.unt.edu/

Nothing about the authors not being Martians though...Colin4C (talk) 19:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that article, as I pointed out here the first time I deleted the link, is that it doesn't seem to be directly related to anti-Americanism. The title is "Determinants of Arab Public Opinion on Foreign Relations." The one somewhat related reference is about the West generally: "Rather, in rejecting Hypothesis 6, we have already rejected the claim that Arab opinion is monolithically anti-Western. (A quick glance at Table 3 suffices to demonstrate that Arabs are not systematically hostile to foreign countries in general.)". However, in the interest of compromise, I'm willing to leave that article in the list. Life.temp (talk) 20:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• Here is the archived discussion of this topic Talk:Anti-Americanism/Archive_25#External_Links_peer-reviewed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Life.temp (talk • contribs) 20:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that the articles in academic journals are not normally peer reviewed? Can you name one academic journal which accepts non peer reviewed articles? Colin4C (talk) 09:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Appropriate Sourcing

The "North America" section is a case-study for how this article should be edited. As it stands, it says:

North America

Anti-Americanism is fairly prevalent in Canada, with frequent allegations of American athletes cheating and of being snubbed by the US administration. However, such sentiment is not limited to Canada, and allegations of Anti-Americanism are frequently made by various US politicians about those in the opposing party.

Objections. 1. It states opinion as a fact: Anti-Americanism is fairly prevalent in Canada; frequent allegation of cheating is anti-American. (It seem to me the US media is full of allegations of athletes cheating: why isn't that anti-American?) Sourcing the opinion doesn't change that problem. 2. The source is not notable. It is an opinion piece from a newspaper. 3. It is not neutral, since it labels people in a way they don't label themselves. Solutions: Delete the part about Canada. It doesn't belong in the article. If there's notable debate about whether the examples are anti-Americanism, then the debate can be described here. The part about US politicians needs to be sourced. It's much easier to include, because it doesn't constitute Wikipedia asserting anyone is anti-American. That's an important distinction. The subject can (should) be described without Wikipedia calling people anti-American. I think this reasoning applies to many of the culture-specific allegations of anti-Americanism in this article. Life.temp (talk) 09:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not the sources that have to be neutral but for us here to give a balanced selection of variously POV sources. NPOV is a policy for wikipedia editors, not for the sources themselves. Colin4C (talk) 10:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, but that doesn't address the objections. Life.temp (talk) 11:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes it does. Also your point number 2 is wrong. Notability has to do with wikipedia articles not sources of citations. If you give a reference for a statement people can judge the statement on the basis of the reference. That's how academic references work: "According to this ref so-and-so is the case". Whether something is absolutely true is unknowable, except perhaps to God. Au contraire the statement "According to this ref so-and-so is the case" can be checked to be true or not by inspecting the reference. The notability of the source can be judged by the reader. It is not for wikipedia editors to judge. Our role is not so exalted. Colin4C (talk) 13:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It was a stub section that said nothing relevant. I removed. Anti-Americanism is fairly prevelant in Canada (it defines Canadian identity, in part), but it should be better described if we are to include it.

But before proceeding further, can we run checkuser on Life.temp? I don't like discussing with this feeling of duplicity hanging over everything said. I'm quite busy for the next few days or I'd initiate one myself. Marskell (talk) 18:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I found the relevant policy description:

"Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves." Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#A_simple_formulation. Everybody should read that section of the policy. It's what I was trying to say above. A lot of this article "asserts the opinions themselves." Example, "Anti-Americanism in some form has existed across different American presidential administrations, though its severity may wax and wane considerably depending upon particular economic or geopolitical issues." Please note that the problem with this sentence isn't solved by adding a reference. The problem is that it iasserts an opinion. It would need to be re-worded as, "According to [significant source], anti-Americanism in some form...." And there would need to be balance with the fact that few of these being labelled anti-American would accept that label for themselves. Life.temp (talk) 21:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's more specific policy that addresses my concern. I would only add that 1) if it is likely many people dispute that the Beatles are the greatest band, the opposite view needs to be present, and 2) anti-Americanism, as a potential pejorative about living people, requires a very high standard of neutrality.

"When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey; or "The Beatles had many songs that made the UK Singles Chart," which is also verifiable as fact. In the first instance we assert a personal opinion; in the second and third instances we assert the fact that an opinion exists, by attributing it to reliable sources." Life.temp (talk) 22:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to say that what is classed as a 'fact' is only through someone's opinion. 'Facts' do not impinge on our consciousness with the blinding force of revelation and even if they did we would have to convince someone else that what was revealed to us is the TRUTH. Nobody knows what the true facts are about reality. Descartes, Kant and Hegel couldn't find out and even Einstein didn't know. All we can do is say e.g. "According to Einstein E = mc squared" or "According to George Bush the weapons of mass destruction are in Saddam's garden shed" and leave it to others to figure out what credit they are prepared to give to Mr Einstein or Mr Bush or whoever. Colin4C (talk) 09:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The policy of Wikipedia is that some things are classed as fact and some are not, and the policy is given in the link I provided above. If you want to start a nihilistic encyclopedia which recognizes nothing as fact, I will be very interested to see how it works out. Wikipedia is not such a project. Life.temp (talk) 12:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not nihilism. Science progresses. Newton's theory of physics was replaced by Einstein's which was replaced by quantum theory which itself is not the definitive answer. There are new discoveries being made every day in science and new philosophical theories and new definitions and new ways of analysis and new historical discoveries. If you want to start a medieval encyclopedia based on the immutable thoughts of Aristotle I would be interested to see how it turns out. Wikipedia is not such a project. Colin4C (talk) 15:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Colin, make an effort. Wikipedia's policy is given in the link I provided. This is the fourth time in 2 days I've referred you to an actual page that explains the policy on classifying fact/opinion and how to write about them. Life.temp (talk) 21:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Is that a fact or an opinion? Colin4C (talk) 09:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Case in point: the first paragraph of the Latin American section, which I removed. The first source (PBS) said nothing about anti-Americanism, and its only comment about sentiment was "For too long, Mexicans have felt that their generosity and good will towards Americans have been corresponded by abuse and perfidy from their northern neighbor." In other words, Mexicans felt affection toward Americans but thought Americans were anti-Mexican. The second source, from the Financial Times, was an opinion piece. The third source called nothing anti-American and barely mentioned sentiment at all. This whole article is like that. Life.temp (talk) 12:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

All three sources reported facts about anti-American sentiments in Mexico, Chile and South America generally. Colin4C (talk) 12:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Document please. Life.temp (talk) 13:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

All the references are of standard form used and accepted in all other wikipedia articles. Colin4C (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

You were asked to document your statement: "All three sources reported facts about anti-American sentiments." You've moved from harassment to word games. Do I need to complain about your behavior? Life.temp (talk) 22:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Latin American Anti-Americanism is very interesting. For a long time it was thought that Guevara and Castro were communist stooges, but we can now see with Chavez that South American Anti-Americanism has got legs of its own and is in fact a long standing historical factor 'south of the border' originating from before the Moscow Communist Experiment and now continuing afterwards. I have added some more material on this - fully referenced from widely used textbooks on South American history plus a biography of Fidel Castro. Winn's book is an up to date textbook on South American History used in universities which has elicited a chorus of praise from reviewers. Winn is Professor of Latin American History at Tufts University.Colin4C (talk) 19:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no evidence the Winn book says anything about anti-Americanism. It doesn't appear to be primarily a textbok, either: "companion volume to a PBS TV series." [1] Regardles, a sourced opinion is still opinion and shouldn't be stated as fact. Life.temp (talk) 22:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Professor Peter Winn's book is used as a college textbook on South American studies and reports anti-Americanism in South as a reaction to historic attempts by the USA to assert it's hegemony over South America by military, diplomatic and financial methods. Colin4C (talk) 15:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

1. The text it references has nothing to do with hegemony. 2. A sourced opinion is still an opinion, and needs to be stated as such. 3. You haven't documented that the book says that. Life.temp (talk) 08:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Deletions

I am wondering why Life.temp has just deleted this from the article:

• Regularly updated series of articles and commentary on Anti-Americanism in the Atlantic Review.

As the Atlantic Review addresses questions of anti-Americanism or perceived anti-Americanism it seems relevent to this article. If nobody can give me cogent reasons why it should be deleted I will restore it. Colin4C (talk) 10:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Even Igor agreed to it. See the discussion within the section on The White Man's Burden above Talk:Anti-Americanism#White_Mans_Burden. Life.temp (talk) 11:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I just looked. There was no concensus to remove it. All we have is your assertion here that there was a concensus. What do other people here think about this? Colin4C (talk) 15:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The only person to object, Igor, reverted the change once, then agreed to it. The link is not to a series of articles on anti-Americanism, as described. It is to a page of search results for anti-Americanism at that Web zine. Previously, this section had a warning for having too many "indiscriminate" links or something like that. (The warning is now gone.) Plugging the title of an article into a search field at a Web zine, and then linking to the hits page seems like a good example of indiscriminate linking to me. We can't even know what the page will say at any given time. Life.temp (talk) 21:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

You and Igor may be right. What do other people here think? Colin4C (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

A nonAmerican PlayGround

This article certainly has gone through changes over a year or so, little historical reference and filled with blurbs of bigotry based on current events. Most of the American editors have been run off and left happily to nonAmericans, and forever under the watchful eye of Marskell. Congrats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.229.197.54 (talk) 21:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

LOL ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 10:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hey. I saw there was a pending request for a third opinion, but I'm not really sure what the issue is. Can someone explain? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 21:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The most recent discussion is Talk:Anti-Americanism#Appropriate_Sourcing. There is also an outline of objections to the article here: Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2008-04-14_Anti-Americanism#Attempt_at_Salvage. In a nutshell, this article violates a number of policies of neutrality. Interpreting something as anti-Americanism is an opinion. So, it should not be asserted as fact. This article asserts those opinions as facts. Saying, or implying, that people are anti-American is usually labeling them in a way they don't accept for themselves, so that also violates Wikipedia guidelines on neutrality. The term "anti-American" has a pejorative connotation, so it is triply non-neutral for this article to proceed by calling people anti-American. In short, the article should discuss the fact that people think such-and-such is anti-Americanism, but it should not be asserting those opinions as fact. Almost all of the section on regional attitudes does that. When I made these objections to Colin4C above, he played a word-game over the fact-opinion distinction and reverted my edits.Life.temp (talk) 22:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

So if someone in Iran burns an American flag whilst chanting 'death to America' is than anti-American or not? When Fidel Castro in a recent speech compared the Americans to the Nazis is that anti-American or not? When Hitler declared war on the USA in 1941 was that anti-American or not? Are you saying it is not possible to be anti-American even if you declare war on the United States and kill its citizens? Is this extract from a speech by Castro in 1958 in which he states that he intends to wage war on the USA anti-American?:

"When this war is over a much wider and bigger war will commence for me: the war I am going to wage against them [the United States]. I am aware that this is my true destiny. We accuse the U.S. government…of selling to the Batista dictatorship the planes and bombs that have killed so many defenseless Cuban civilians. If the U.S. violates our sovereignty we will defend it with dignity…We are ready to die in defense of our people."

Historic anti-Americanism in a useful hermeneutic concept and explains a lot of things which are otherwise mysterious. E.g. why South America continues to oppose United States hegemony after the fall of Communist Russia. Rather than being a by-product of global communism anti-Americanism is a long standing tradition in South America. Read any text-book on South American politics and society and you will see that these facts are as plain as day.

Colin4C (talk) 00:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing remotely anti-American in the Castro quote: "If the US violates our sovereignty we will defend it..." Is it neutral to characterize Bush as anti-Arab? Personally, the only one of your examples I would agree with is the chanting of "Death to America." But it doesn't matter, because the point is neutrality not truth. Wikipedia policy is that you can't even call the Ku Klux Klan racist [2]. The point is that there is no reason for an encylcopedia to interpret these things for others. You just describe the Ku Klux Klan, or the Iranian fundamentalists, in the appropriate article and let the reader decide if they are racist or anti-American, or not. That's what it means to be neutral. Life.temp (talk) 01:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You are completely wrong in your interpretation of wikipedia policies on NPOV. The NPOV is a policy for us the editors to be neutral not a way to falsify reality or play politically correct word games. This is an encyclopedia not a spin doctor's operating room. The page you quote Wikipedia:Words to avoid is not official policy and has currently been frozen due to an edit war there. See where it says at the top: "This page is currently protected from editing until disputes have been resolved. This protection is not an endorsement of the current version." The official wikipedia policy on NPOV is stated here: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Colin4C (talk) 09:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so, let's calm down and take another shot at it. Are we talking about any few edits in particular, such as the Castro addition in this one, or the removal here? Based on the edit history, I think the latter one is the problem. Is that right? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 13:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say NPOV is "a way to falsify reality or play politically correct word games," so you haven't addressed what I said. That, and "This is an encyclopedia not a spin doctor's operating room." is just a continuation of the personal attacks for which you've already been warned. The page I referenced gives reasons for its guidelines. Address reasons, please. The page you cited is the same page I cited a few days ago, above. That page, which we have now both cited says:

Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves.....When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey....

Look familiar? It should. You read it a few days ago, and produced word-games pretending there is no difference between fact and opinion. Scroll up a few paragraphs. Are you going to be specific about how it applies to this article, now? Life.temp (talk) 17:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The real edit we are debating here is Colin's sweeping reversion of many edits by different editors that he made here: [3], with the typically hostile, warring comment: "Restored the good version of this article - from before the uninformed axe-grinders and vandals ruined it." That attitude hasn't changed. Life.temp (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Please address the issues rather than launching personal attacks on me. My edit was supported by every other editor here apart from you, including Marskell who is an admin. The concensus here supported my edit. Please respect that. Colin4C (talk) 04:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Your edit was opposed by the main person you reverted, Equazcion. The only other editor besides Marksell was Igor, now banned for disruptive trolling. Why don't you explain which part of the policy that you cited you think applies here, and how.

• Bottom-line: Wikipedia should not go around calling people and cultural groups ant-American. Every policy cited here says so. The actual substantive attention you've given to this point? Zero. But, you've excelled at insults... "uninformed axe-grinders, vandals, politically correct, spin doctors." Life.temp (talk) 07:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

So all the Professors of Latin American history who cite instances anti-American attitudes in Latin America are liars? The textbooks which document it are lies also? The scores of books and articles in the Bibliography about Anti-Americanism are not true? Your original research has deemed that the subject does not exist and all the Professors are wrong? Is that what you are saying? Do you think that Brendon O'Connor is talking about a non-subject in his book?: O'Connor, Brendon (ed.) (2007). Anti-Americanism: History, Causes, Themes. Greenwood Press. Where is the wikipedia policy which forbids us examining this subject? There is none. Colin4C (talk) 07:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say any scholar was a liar. I didn't any professors are wrong. I didn't say this is a non-subject. I didn't say Wikipedia policy forbids examining the subject. Life.temp (talk) 08:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You said that anti-Americanism was just the personal opinion of certain academics and doesn't exist in the real world and therefore shouldn't be talked about in the wikipedia. I have provided valuable referenced information on this subject which you have just reverted based on a highly idiosyncratic interpretation of wikipedia policy. This is a real subject about which scores of books have been written. The wikipedia does not have a policy on whether anti-Americanism is real and neither should it. Colin4C (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say it doesn't exist in the "real world." I didn't say it shouldn't be talked about on Wikipedia. Life.temp (talk) 08:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Re your remarks above about the Ku Klux KLan not being racist, what about Hitler? If you saw an edit in which Hitler was described as a racist would you delete it? What if an edit proclaimed that Hitler was an Anti-Semite would you strike that out and declare it is against wikipedia policy? Should there even be an Anti-Semitism article? I'd love to know your thoughts on that. Colin4C (talk) 12:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say the Ku Klux Klan isn't racist. Life.temp (talk) 22:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Okay, everyone calm down. As to the sweeping edit above: I believe that Colin's heavy revert/edit produced a page that was far superior to the one before it (this vs this). Admittedly, the edit summary on that was a bit heavy handed, but it's okay. I would say, however, that both of you need to step away from this page for awhile and come back when you've cleared your heads. At this point, you're just sniping at each other, not assuming good faith, and making increasingly hostile edits. Life.temp, you're not so innocent yourself here - this edit summary isn't all that nice. Colin, your last set of edits above are a little inflammatory, however, and you've put Life.temp on the defensive by what appears to be misreading Life's comments. Life's last two comments were purely "I didn't say" sentences, which seems to mean that you're just attacking. Calm down.

Next: the text added here. I think most of the content added isn't all that bad. The Fabbrini text has been more or less lifted directly from here, and the argument in that section is sort of a non sequitur in that believing in a 9/11 conspiracy doesn't necessarily equate to anti-Americanism per se. There's nothing in the CNN article cited there that points to the book being anti-American, and to assume so is original research. The Qutb section is okay, but I think the article in its current form introduces too much WP:WEIGHT to Hollander's piece. The Chavez section is okay too, I think.

Thoughts? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You didn't respond to anything I said or any point I made. I didn't request a third opinion to come and say "This is OK, this is not OK." Life.temp (talk) 22:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Er... then what are you looking for? Do you want me to give Colin a slap on the wrists? If you've got a particular problem with a user's behavior, then a third opinion isn't what you're looking for; you should be looking at WP:WQA. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 22:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I was looking for responses to what I said about policy and this article. It's not very helpful to just say "This is OK, this is superior to this." "OK" is not an explanation of anything, and doesn't address any of the concerns I raised. Life.temp (talk) 22:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I reread your comment and I see you did give some reasons. But the overriding problems with all of the national sentiment section are that 1) it applies an often-pejorative term to people & cultures who do not accept it for themselves, and that is not neutral, 2) it applies a term that is an interpretation to events and cultures, but asserts that interpretation as fact. (There are also balance problems). Life.temp (talk) 22:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I think I'm starting to get a sense of the problem. You wrote the following above: "In short, the article should discuss the fact that people think such-and-such is anti-Americanism, but it should not be asserting those opinions as fact. Almost all of the section on regional attitudes does that." I'm having a hard time figuring out what the overlap is here. By listing the arguments of a certain people/group/whatever on this page, aren't you already passing judgment on that group? I guess I need an example of what you're looking for. Let's take chanting "Death to America" - an example on which you agreed with Colin. Would you have the article say "Group X chants 'Death to America'" and leave it at that? By mentioning them on this page, aren't you implying that Group X's actions is a form of anti-Americanism? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to get a sense of things. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 23:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, note that few of the examples in this article are as clearcut as chanting "Death to America." The things being labelled as anti-Americanism here are public-opinion polls showing "a decline in favorable sentiment", or a protest against an American military base after some soldiers raped a child. The people being labelled there don't accept that description of themesleves, and in the case of the polls, even the pollsters didn't characterize them as indicators of anti-Americanism. To answer your question: I would first ask why it is necessary for an encylcopedia to label anything as anti-Americanism. Why not just describe the event and let the reader decide? That is how neutral reporting is suppose to work. I think this article should be short and not be a list of everyting editors want to call anti-Americanism around the world. See the bigotry article, for example. Life.temp (talk) 23:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

That's actually an interesting point, and I'd certainly entertain the idea of a much smaller page that doesn't have specific examples. One other solution I've thought of is to only allow verifiable content; see what I wrote below to Colin. But the more I think about it, turning this page into a small definition-based page would be a really good solution. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 00:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You are confusing two things:

1. There are some people out there who are actual real avowed anti-Americans and who express this through their actions (e.g. like declaring war on the United States or ransacking the American Embassy), by their words (e.g. shouting "Death to America") and symbolic gestures (e.g. like burning the American flag). These people are not shy of being thought anti-American and for some it is a badge of honor and a means of political engagement. There is even anti-American art. If you are ever in Mexico City I recommend you look at a massive fresco called 'The End of American Capitalism' by Diego Rivera at the Ministry of Education. Unbelievable as it seems to you not everybody is secretly in love with the Americans.

2. On the other hand there are some people who are accused of the great sin of being 'anti-American' by e.g. right-wing ideologues but who in reality are just opposed to one aspect of American policy, like the war in Iraq and do not accept the label of being anti-American. A lot of us in the UK who opposed the Iraq war were accused of this terrible sin by right-wingers who in their turn were not afraid to attempt to whip up hatred of the French for opposing the war: Anti-Gallicanism.

This is a complex philosophical issue which should be addressed with constructive thoughtful edits rather than bar-room pronuncimentios. Colin4C (talk) 00:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are my points, for the 20th time. I don't think of them as "bar-room pronuncimentios" and your stream of disparaging remarks isn't constructive.

• There is a cultural bias, because people from non-English-speaking countries are underrepresented in the English Wikipedia, yet the article labels Japensese, French and many Islamic countries as anti-American. If people from those countries were equally represented, there is no way there'd be a consensus about those labels.
• There is always a neutrality issue when people are labelled in ways they would not accept for themselves.
• Part of the debate over the term is that it has strong pejorative connotations and is often used as propaganda. The article itself says so. Then it goes on to apply the term to many different people and countries, essentially taking the side that the term is not pejorative and not propaganda. Or maybe the idea is that it's OK for Wikipedia to describe cultures pejoratively.
• The definition of anti-Americanism includes "objection to...policy" which is so broad it includes everybody in the world at some point. It means President Bush is being anti-American when he objects to Death with Dignity laws.
• Many of these issues apply to all the anti-[nation] articles. I think not a single one of them is written by the people who are supposedly anti-[nation]. So I think a general policy discussion is in order. I proposed such a thing at the Village Pump but it hasn't received much attention.

Life.temp (talk) 00:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm starting to fall back on that good old Wiki tradition: that of verifiability. While it may be true that all of the actions/events you mentioned above are anti-American, I don't think that we as editors can speculate on whether or not they are; to do so seems to be WP:OR. I know it seems kind of silly, but I'm starting to lean towards only including text that's from verifiable sources, such as scholars and officials who can speak to the subject. For the above examples, you'd have to find a source that mentions the Mexico City fresco and says "Yes, this is an example of anti-Americanism." However, Life.temp's suggestion above about massively shortening the article seems more and more intriguing to me. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 00:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think both massive shortening and verifiable sourcing are in order. The sources also need to be balanced, in addition to explicitly verifiable. Some examples of debate about whether something is anti-American, rather than just lists of what has been characterized as anti-American by some columnist somewhere, would be much better. Life.temp (talk) 09:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the Talk Page. All my contributions in the main body of the article are rigorously sourced from textbooks written by professors and lecturers at university, they are not original research. As this is the talk page I thought I would just add an anecdote about anti-American art. As you seem to doubt what I am saying in good faith here I will add a fully referenced section on Mexican anti-American art to the article shortly. If you doubt my credentials just to add that I was an editor of academic conference proceedings for several years (the Transactions of the Theoretical Roman Archeology Conference) and have organised several international academic conferences on archaeology and have had articles published in hard copy encyclopedias e.g The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Classical Civilisations. I will oppose any butchering and mass deletions of this article. This is a very good, well sourced article which obeys all the wikipedia requirements for verifiability. There are several editors here making constructive contributions: we are not bound to follow Life.temps personal POV original research agenda of mass deletions of relevent, referenced material. The authorities on what constitutes Anti-Americanism are the scores of books and articles on the subject not the off the cuff lubrications of wikipedia editors who seem not to have read a single one of these books and have no expertise in the subject at all just a personal POV which they want to force all other wikipedia editors to obey. IMHO making a constructive contribution to an article is more praiseworthy than making massive deletions based on a personal POV agenda which none of the other long-standing editors here share. Colin4C (talk) 16:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not really sure which other "long-standing" editors you're talking about; as far as I can tell, it's just you and Life.temp. No one else has chimed in on this argument at all, though I left A(omega) a message, so hopefully they'll chime in. I'd remind you of WP:OWN - while your contributions here are most certainly appreciated, and you've built this page up a whole lot, there's nothing wrong with discussing the potential to trim down this article. I'd like some other outside editors to chime in on such an action, though. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 17:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

So you believe that everything possible can be said about anti-Americanism in a couple of pages even though there are whole books on the subject of 200+ pages or more, such as Barry Rubin and Judith Colp (2004). Hating America: A History (Oxford University Press) (336 pages)?:

"In the early twenty-first century, the world has been seized by one of the most intense periods of anti-Americanism in history. Reviled as an imperialist power, an exporter of destructive capitalism, an arrogant crusader against Islam, and a rapacious over-consumer casually destroying the planet, it seems that the United States of America has rarely been less esteemed in the eyes of the world.

In such an environment, one can easily overlook the fact that people from other countries have, in fact, been hating America for centuries. Going back to the day of Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, Americans have long been on the defensive.

Barry Rubin and Judith Colp Rubin here draw on sources from a wide range of countries to track the entire trajectory of anti-Americanism. Most significantly, they identify how anti-Americanism evolved over time. In the 18th century, the newfound land was considered too wild and barbaric to support human society. No one, the argument went, could actually live there. Animals brought from Europe, one French commentator claimed, shrunk in size and power. Native Americans too were "small and feeble," lacking "body hair, beard and ardor for his female." The very land itself was "permeated with moist and poisonous vapors, unable to give proper nourishment except to snakes and insects." This opinion prevailed through most of the 19th century, with Keats even invoking the lack of nightingales as symptomatic of just how unlovely and unlivable a place this America was.

As the young nation came together at the beginning of the twentieth century and could no longer be easily dismissed as a failure, its very success became cause for suspicion. The American model of populist democracy, the rise of mass culture, the spread of industrialization-all confirmed that America was now a viral threat that could destabilize the established order in Europe.

After the paroxysm of World War II, the worst fears of anti-Americanists were realized as the United States became one of the two most powerful nations in the world. Then, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, America became the sole superpower it is today, and the object of global suspicion and scorn.

With this powerful work, the Rubins trace the paradox that is America, a country that is both the most reviled and most envied land on earth. In the end, they demonstrate, anti-Americanism has often been a visceral response to the very idea-as well as both the ideals and policies--of America itself, its aggressive innovation, its self-confidence, and the challenge it poses to alternative ideologies."

Do you think Rubin and Colp have wasted their time writing 336 pages on the subject when Life.temp has discovered through original research the absolute eternal truth that only two pages can ever be written on the subject ever? Do you and Life-temp propose to police this article to make sure new contributors can't add any more words to it? What gives you this right? The wikipedia has not. Turning a decent article into a miserable stub is against wikipedia policy and you have no right to dictate to other editors otherwise. You are not the owner of the wikipedia. Life.temp has not made a single solitary constructive edit all the time he has been here: all he does is revert and delete. And you support him! You criticised me for not giving a cite for the Mexican painting but you and Life.temp have not cited a single solitary article or book supporting your viewpoint that there is nothing to be said about anti-Americanism. The Oxford University Press think it is a scholarly subject. If you think they are idiots to do so give me a citation.

Who should be rewarded in your opinion, the person who builds a house and furnishes it or the person who breaks all the windows and then tosses a hand-grenade inside? I have devoted hours and hours of my time trying to make this a decent article and you just want to trash it. Deleting stuff is just SO easy. Colin4C (talk) 19:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Calm down, man - it was just an idea. At this point, I'd say that we need to explore other options to get some consensus on how to proceed. WP:RFC is probably the way to go. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:52, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The article violates neutrality in many ways. Those ways have been explained to you many times. Length is not quality. If someone decided to quadruple the length of the article on bigotry by picking things to call bigotted, or by sourcing only one side in such debates, it would not improve the article. Life.temp (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Rather than assume good faith Life.temp has brought an action against me here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Colin4C. This is the second action he has taken against editors of this article who disagree with him. An abuse of process IMHO. As for me I will continue to maintain the integrity of this article and make a positive contribution here to the analysis of anti-Americanism. That is what I have been doing for the last two years on the wikipedia: making a positive contribution and never ever engaging in mass deletions of referenced material. See for instance my article Music hall. I am not a wikilawyer but a published academic who wants to spread knowledge about the real world. If that is a sin so be it. Colin4C (talk) 09:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Posting at ANI is an attempt at getting more opinions to resolve a dispute. The fact that you're implying that that's the opposite of good faith makes me think Life.temp may have some grounds for his complaint after all, whereas before I thought this was a case of mutual fault. In a dispute like this you should be welcoming more eyes on the situation, Colin, not berating the effort. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:59, 30 Apr 2008 (UTC)

But this is what it says on the ANI page:

"What these pages are not: This page is not part of our dispute resolution process. If you want to discuss the possible misuse of administrative powers, you can do so here. However this is not the Wikipedia complaints department. If your problem concerns a content issue and does not need the attention of administrators, please follow the steps in dispute resolution."

The ANI page is "for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Wikipedia that require the intervention of administrators." Which makes me think it redundant because one of the long standing editors here (Marskell) is an admin. Colin4C (talk) 15:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

You can think it's redundant. Just don't say it's bad faith. Perhaps Life.temp made a mistake in choosing the wrong venue to air his concerns, but that doesn't make his actions anything more than an attempt at solving a conflict. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:10, 30 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I assume there's a policy somewhere barring admins from intervening on their own behalf. Marksell is involved in editing this article, and has a very clear side in the disputes. It would hardly be appropriate for him to intervene here. Life.temp (talk) 17:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Bullying

My thanks to Colin4C for his comment (on my talk page) about my constructive edits. Most of my work has however been removed by user Marskell, calling it "sloppy and overdetailed". I'll say his comments on my edits amount to bullying and harassment. I've noticed, from one of Colin's comments further up this page that Marskell is an admin. That fact, and the fact that he does (in my opinion) clearly act like a bully, and also seems to be a long-time editor of this article, makes me think that I will be wasting too much time if I were to attempt any further contributions. I'm quite sure. Sorry about that. And to HelloAnnyoung: Chiming in, like you asked me to, and out. ΑΩ (talk) 10:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Marskell lacks a lot of tact, for an admin. She's also been editing this article for a very long time, and if she's honest with herself, she would admit to having some ownership issues here. You're not the first editor she's run off of this. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:06, 30 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've run trolls off and will continue to do so. But I don't run off good contributions. Some of what AQ added I reincorporated after reverting, as it is an improvement to our Usage section. Among things I cut:

"On the other hand, the suffix -ism is used to form a variety of nouns, denoting attributes (such as heroism or egoism), principles of belief (such as conservatism, liberalism or communism), prejudice and discrimination (such as racism, sexism and ageism), or disease and disorders (such as aneurism, astigmatism, and autism)."

AQ wanted this for the first paragraph. Sorry, but this is sloppy and it's the wrong page for it. Note the edit also changed the first sentence to the adjective form, which would obviously need discussing. The next batch of edits was also sloppy as it paid no attention to paragraph flow. And it was over-detailed as it devoted a mass of space to a single usage at the end of the War of 1812, and another mass of space to a single academic who's still redlinked. If you can chop the 1812 bit down to one sentence it might go back in. Marskell (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Er...just to say that I'm sorry I assumed you were a man above...Colin4C (talk) 16:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, lack of tact. ΑΩ isn't a troll. Neither was I. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:11, 30 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. Read the sentences together: "I've run trolls off and will continue to do so. But I don't run off good contributions." I don't think AQ is a troll (or you) and thought she did make some good contributions. But we need to better rationalize how we incorporate things (particularly with regard to WP:UNDUE); it's been a persistent problem.

I am a man, incidentally; I was enjoying the creative ambiguity. Marskell (talk) 18:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Colonists

Americans are just glorified colonists who "gained" independence because we couldnt be bothered fighting anymore. :) its a JOKE ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 10:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism

An example of the problems one discovers when you start turning over the rocks in this article. The article says:

"Fabbrini (2004) reports the American invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003 brought anti-Americanism to the surface of public debate in Europe. The reaction to U.S. unilateralism has been nourished by a complex of fears, two in particular: the presumed economic and cultural Americanization of Europe and the Americanization of the European political process. The overwhelming global power acquired by the United States in the post-Cold War era and the unilateral exercise of that power, especially after 9/11 attacks September 11, 2001 fed the anti-American sentiment contributing to its most militant manifestation."

This is plagiarized from an abstract of a book:

"The American invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003 brought to the surface of public debate among European elites a robust anti-Americanism. The reaction to US unilateralism has been nourished by a complex of fears. Two in particular. The first fear has to do with the presumed economic and cultural Americanization of Europe. The second fear with the Americanization of the European political process. Both fears seem unjustified to a closer logical and empirical scrutiny. However, the overwhelming global power acquired by the US in the post Cold War era, and the unilateral exercise of that power especially after September 11, 2001, fed the anti-American sentiment contributing to its most militant manifestation. Although anti-Americanism is deeply rooted in European political cultures and experiences, nevertheless its re-emergence has been greatly triggered by American foreign policy strategy.

http://www.atypon-link.com/INT/doi/abs/10.1386/ejac.23.2.79/0?cookieSet=1&journalCode=ejac

I will remove it, as I don't think consensus is required for things that can get Wikipedia sued. I hope this won't be considered a mass deletion. Life.temp (talk) 13:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Image: possibly deleted?

I seem to remember seeing an image on Wikipedia from a few months ago, an Anti-American poster from the second age of immigration, from Russia I believe, warning citizens against immigrating to America and showing it as an overgrown savage native-filled swampland or forest, with some sort of dilapitated wooden building in center. If anyone knows of this image or where it is, can you please help me locate it? VolatileChemical (talk) 02:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)