Talk:John Howard: Difference between revisions

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Kevin Rudd says sorry

I rarely add material to an article, or even copyedit. But in this case I've made an exception, after a couple of months to consider the wording. Rudd's apology should be seen in the context of the events of Howard's second term, rather than as a little piece of Rudd-boosting in the middle of Howard's article, as some may prefer. --Pete (talk) 18:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this. The fact that Rudd's apology received bipartisan (if grudging) support is significant, and useful for a student of John Howard's career and impact. Far more significant than four ex-PMs attending. For these old codgers, a chance to get out and get some media attention and a good feed is probably a bigger factor than any political message. --Pete (talk) 02:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Although you haven't specifically written it here, this seems to be your reasoning for removing the fact that John Howard was the only living PM not to attend. This was considered a significant aspect of the day and after your three removals, has been reinserted not just by myself in the last few days. You need to get consensus to remove it, ie - convince others of its merits. --Merbabu (talk) 02:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you address the point I specifically mentioned, please? Rather than restating your own opinions, already familiar territory here. --Pete (talk) 02:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Pete, saying "rather than restating your own opinions, already familiar territory here." is kind of uncivil - making it very hard to contribute, indeed "already familiar territory here". In fact, it hinders your own efforts to get people on side - snarky comments on your likely completely misjudged perception of people's biases do nothing to influence people (which I think is what you want), rather it only entrenches positions. (not to mention that the reverse could be easily have said of you, but wasn't). Accusing people of bad faith is no way to convince them of the merits of your position.

As for the far more important content issue at hand, I think my comments are perfectly relevant - I'm discussing your removal of that fact that Howard did not attend (which is what your activity here and in the article is about, right?). Yes, it was covered in the media, and it was certainly discussed, and is thus significant. I don't think it is up to us to dismiss it as insignificant.

A more basic point, one needs to get consensus to change the status quo. --Merbabu (talk) 03:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if I offended you, but when you do nothing more than repeat your previously expressed opinions, it's not helpful. Could you respond to these two points:

1. Bipartisan support for Rudd's apology was significant. Four ex-PMs showing up for a free feed and media attention is not.
2. The media making a story, especially something as confected as "the only living ex-PM not to attend", does not make it encyclopaedic. Or significant. Remember Rudd's earwax-eating incident? Wide media coverage? Yes? Significant? No.

Could you respond to these specific points, please? --Pete (talk) 04:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Not offended, more frustrated at what might have been less than ideal collaborative conditions (not that I'm pretending to be consistently angelic or prone to an odd slip up). :-)

I'm going to give it some more thought in the next day or so - but, I still can't really see why it isn't significant enough for a mention - ie, it reflects on the article subject's longstanding and steadfastly held (some might say stubborn) position on the issue. And it is a major national political issue, and I don't think it compares to a bloke picking his ear (even if he was to become PM). I think saying it was about a few blokes looking for a feed trivialises the issue, and (intentionally?) misses the point. --Merbabu (talk) 05:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

PS, your reasons for removal are based on what I see as an incorrect interpretation of the events and I disagree. Ultimately though there are more important things for me to spend my time on, and I could be prepared to let it go. Let's just wait a few days and see if any clear direction comes out either way from other editors. --Merbabu (talk) 06:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Howard was the only living former PM not to attend. It is significant despite your beliefs otherwise. Timeshift (talk) 04:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

My beliefs don't matter. The event (Rudd's apology) was significant. The bipartisan support was significant. Howard's absence was significant in the context of this biographical article. Mind you, it is not unknown for an ex-PM to remove himself from public gaze for a period after an election loss, so one shouldn't read too much into it. Keating certainly didn't attend the opening of Parliament in 1996 and he was barely visible for years after, popping up to make a speech now and then, but for the first six months, he was invisible man.

Howard's absence tells us a little bit about John Howard, and it is fine in this biographical article, but think it through for the other ex-PMs. Do we learn anything about John Howard from the attendance of Whitlam, Fraser etc.? We do not. If one of these chaps (and they are getting on a bit) had been suffering from a lurgy and not felt up to attending on the day, then Howard would not have been the only living ex-PM to attend. But would Howard's behaviour have been the slightest bit different? It would not. It was Rudd's apology he presumably cared about, not whether Fraser turned up for a feed or not. Howard was going to stay away, no matter how many old politicans came for the day. So we don't learn anything about Howard, who is the subject of this biographical article, by saying he was the only ex-PM not to attend. People coming to this article for information get this little bit of irrelevant nonsense, a little bit of confected colour. So I have to chuckle when people say it is significant, and I smile when they stamp their feet and declare it is significant. Historic even. It's not. We're supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia, something useful, not a load of twaddle and opinion.

Though of course, if enough people stamp their feet and dig their heels in, I'll roll my eyes. --Pete (talk) 04:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's seriously listening to you anymore Pete. I know i'm not. Timeshift (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

As evidenced by that response. Right. Look, it might be a novel idea, guys, but could we keep the talk page for talk about the article? --Pete (talk) 01:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

We're past that. It's occurred forever and a day without any concession. You remain on your pedestal of not thinking its noteworthy, while everyone else stands over here and laughs at you. Timeshift (talk) 02:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

This is an old saw. Given that SkyRing was taken to task over it (and other similarly tendentious editing practices) here, its surprising that in his absence he's not been able to move on. To re-iterate for the umpteenth time, It would be un-encyclopedic to mention that Howard declined to attend without any context to indicate the significance of his non-attendance. The fact that he was the only living ex-PM not to attend is what makes it significant, and therefore notable, and thus, encyclopedic. Please can we all move on now? Eyedubya (talk) 12:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The point about Howard being the only living PM not to attend provides the context and notability for his non-attendance, and should be retained for this reason. The line about bipartisan support is a different issue, and should be retained if it is true. However, can we say it was bipartisan support, considering some MPs (eg Wilson Tuckey) walked out of the event in protest? Lester 23:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Well Nelson provided in-principle bi-partisan support on behalf of the parliamentary Liberal Party. What this means in terms of true bipartisanship i'll leave up to you. But the official, RS line is that it was bi-partisan. Feel free to qualify the statement after, eg half a dozen Liberal MPs not attending etc. Timeshift (talk) 23:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Unless one’s world view is extremist or fundamentalist, rarely is anything absolute, and this needs to be reflected in wikipedia. Indeed support of the apology was not unanimous, but I suggest Skyring’s point is that there was a very high degree of bi-partisanship. I think we’d all agree on that, right? --Merbabu (talk) 23:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

the level of bi-partisanship or otherwise is a matter for the article on the apology, not John Howard's article. That it was bi-partisan to a degree is sufficient mention in JH. Eyedubya (talk) 12:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

POV tag

Any reason why Lynton Crosby gains no mention in body text? Is it the same reason Bush and Kyoto also gain no mention in the body text? Timeshift (talk) 00:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Some have stopped editing this page because they know the page constantly gets a working over by Howardites. The article contains no information on some issues whilst expanding almost too much on other issues, and their viewpoints. I have tagged the page with a POV tag. Timeshift (talk) 01:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The article certainly has the flaws you mention, but I don't think it has systematic POV bias so I the tag should be removed IMHO. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I think there are Howardite editors systematically manipulating and working over the article. Is that non systematic POV? Timeshift (talk) 01:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

But there are also editors on the other side, so it balances out. Scanning the article I can see one or two things that I never noticed before - a glowing reference to his time as treasurer, and an attempt to shift the blame on mandatory detention onto Keating (ignoring the fact that Howard made it much more draconian). The non-mention of Crosby, Bush and Kyoto (sounds like a band) is easily fixed without a POV tag, no? But there's lots of negative too (much more proportionally than the Kevin Rudd article I would suggest). So I won't object to the POV tag for the moment, if specific things are identified and fixed quickly. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

These editors on the other side you speak of (centrist moderates or left) are over time reedited and/or shut down by the pro editors, just go through the talk archives. Some have stopped editing this page because they know the page constantly gets a working over by Howardites. The way the article is structured makes it hard to add things. Where would you add Crosby to? It needs a top down edit IMHO. The negatives you mention are phrased in apologetic tones. Rudd's negatives can't be expected to be that much only several months in to the job, and his territory legislative sovereignty backflip is an issue on that page which I continue to advocate keeping despite unnamed persons objections. If something of substance (ie: nn earwax) isn't raised, by all means please bring it up or add it. This doesn't however mean we take the Bolt or Akerman shockjock cynic rating-grabbing (loud minority) view though (on his or any page). Timeshift (talk) 01:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I think there are Howardite editors systematically manipulating and working over the article. Bizarre. Do you have any diffs? I very rarely add to political articles, but I'm always keen to move extreme views back to NPOV. Perhaps you think this article should totally toe the line of the Socialist Workers Weekly and anybody who protests is a card-carrying Liberal? --Pete (talk) 02:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to note, I will not be responding to Pete's un-WP:CIVIL baiting, strawman, incorrect views in this discussion. Timeshift (talk) 02:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, since you've made the claim of "constantly gets a working over by Howardites", you should be able to provide proof. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The proof is in the pudding. Its a process over time of death by 1000 cuts. Timeshift (talk) 03:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Meh, familar refrain and ironic coming from Timeshift and the party he supports. Simply put, rather than engaging in ad-hom attacks, stick to discussing the article. Shot info (talk) 03:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Glory statements about Howard economics were added here, and critical statements about Howard economics were deleted here. Lester 04:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

And the relevance to ad-hom attacks on editors is appropriate? I'm glad you agree with me Lester that we need to focus on the contribution, rather than make shabby comments about the contributor. Shot info (talk) 05:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Timeshift made a general statement that he thinks the article has been written by "Howardites". As thousands of editors have been involved in writing this article, I don't believe anyone should be offended or think it refers to them. For that reason, people should refrain from specific attacks on user:Timeshift. Thanks, Lester 06:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You probably should look at a little closer at the ad-hom attacks made against another editor by Timeshift above then. Thanks for agreeing that we need to focus on the contribution rather than the thousands of editors who have edited here. Of course if you feel that we should focus on the background of editors, then please turn off your AGF and disengage the WP:HONESTY drive. Shot info (talk) 06:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

"attacks made against another editor by Timeshift" whatever. WP:Why WP:are WP:these WP:discussions WP:always WP:so WP:pointless... Timeshift (talk)

O...the irony... Shot info (talk) 07:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

... Both of these relate to Howard paying off government debt. But this topic has seen editing from both sides, with the current paragraph in the article on this topic reading as follows:

In April 2006, the government announced it had completely paid off the last of $96 billion of Commonwealth net debt inherited when it came to power in 1996.[62] Economists generally welcomed the news, while cautioning that some level of debt was not necessarily bad, and that some of the debt had been transferred to the private sector.[63][verification needed] Howard often cited the economic management of his government as a point in its favour, but came under heavy criticism toward the end of 2007 in the lead up to the Federal election. It was alleged by opposition leader Kevin Rudd during their single leadership debate that Howard had no plan to deal with inflationary pressures on the economy, and would not be able to handle future interest rate rises.

Not perfect, but seems pretty balanced to me, even a little anti-Howard. So I still see no reason for the POV tag. Peter Ballard (talk) 04:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Whenever there is economic commentary, there is always an opposite view. We now have Rudd's criticism in there, but you'd expect Rudd to criticise it, so it's not really a neutral source (though still may be relevant). Paul Kelly's criticism was deleted, unfortunately. Regarding Kyoto, I just put it in.Lester 05:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Way forward

POV tags are a lousy first port of call for a POV dispute - they are often interpreted as bad faith, even if it wasn't Timeshift's intent.

Be that as it may, what specifically, measurably and realistically does Timeshift propose needs to be done to move on? No tag should be placed if these three criteria cannot be addressed by the placer.--Merbabu (talk) 07:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Lester had the idea with his edits, but IMHO it needs a top-down neutrality workover covering issues like Kyoto, like Bush, like Crosby and Textor. I don't have the motivation myself for this but it doesn't change that I and others have generally steered away from editing this article. Timeshift (talk) 07:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I wonder who these mysterious "others" are? Shot info (talk) 07:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow - one starts a new section to make a clean start from the bickering, and there's no change. Personally, I'd like to see anyone without anything constructive and specific to say about the article to find someone where else to bicker. It's annoying enough that we have a POV with no workable solution. --Merbabu (talk) 07:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Groan, I was going to say I will remove this tag in a week without any practical, achievable and measurable solution provided by the tagger who "doesn't have the motivation" to address. A blanket POV tag is a very serious step, looks really stupid, and there is an onus on the person slapping it on to play a part in fixing it. I see they have been particularly busy on wikipedia since. Now I see a similar tag has been placed on Paul Keating. Pathetic - no doubt retaliatory, steeped in ongoing personal gripes, and based along well-known political persuasions. Part of "consensus"? --Merbabu (talk) 08:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

PS, hmmm - seems like the tag was replaced after being removed a week ago. Before that, it had been there a long time. Sorry for getting that wrong. Still, they are a lousy tool in my opinion. --Merbabu (talk) 09:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

At least they alert the reader to take things with a grain of salt. --Pete (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion (that's been made before)

There was not so long ago a suggestion to split this article into two:

• John Howard Govt (or better worded equivalent) - a new article that deals with the business and policies, etc of the 1996-2008 govt. Much of this current John Howard article would fall into that.
• John Howard - a more biographical article that deals directly with John Howard and loses much of the Howard Govt content discussed above. This article would become much shorter than it is now.

There was discussion over this and broad agreement across editors with varying political biases. I will now find the old discussion that had a few suggestions for content. ---Merbabu (talk) 06:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

PS, I found one of two recent discussions on this. Here. --Merbabu (talk) 06:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would this be necessary/desirable? A BLP for a political figure is naturally comprised of information about political circumstances and events in that figure's life. I'm not clear what is to be gained by segregating the most notable aspects of a person's life from their BLP. --Brendan [ contribs ] 09:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Who says we would "segregate the most notable aspects of his life"? Rather, we would move items that can be attributable to the government as a whole, while still mentioning those that are directly related to Howard personally. Eg, Leadership struggles, gun control, Federal treasurer, 1980s squabbles, etc.

Do we really need all this under Howard (two paragraphs in the current article) - or is this Howard's govt:

The new Senate came into effect on 1 July 2005, giving the Howard government control of both houses for the first time. Not since Fraser had a government been able to pass legislation without approval from other parties. However, due to the slenderness of its Senate majority, internal Coalition discipline and dissent significantly influenced legislative outcomes on certain issues.

The Howard government revisited and secured the passage of previously blocked legislation, including industrial relations changes, the abolition of compulsory university student union fees and liberalisation of media ownership laws (by lowering restrictions on media companies owning multiple different media). It also instructed the Governor-General to disallow a legislation, the ACT Civil Unions Act.[58]

By the way, did you read the linked previous discussion? --Merbabu (talk) 09:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I just added Bush + 2 references to go with it. Lester 12:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Obama

How is this relevant? It is of no consequence. This is a biographical article covering a 30+ year political career - not an indiscriminate list of every little spat Howard was involved in. --Merbabu (talk) 23:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Merbabu. Howard's relationship with Bush was added after the request of other editors, which included Bush's praise of Howard. It was therefore also relevant to also include the spat (as you call it) between Howard and Obama. It's relevant because it involves someone who is one of the world's most famous politicians, someone who has a reasonably high chance of becoming President of the United States, and the issue also gained widespread coverage in international media, including United States media. The reason Howard got widespread US attention over this was because of the incredibly strong wording. He didn't just say "I don't like Obama's policies". He linked the presidential candidate with terrorists, which was the extraordinary element. Thanks, Lester 23:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Heh, in other words, yes every little spat is to be included? - the fact that it has ongoing international ramifications (or lack thereof) of course attests to it's notability outside of the normal media cycle. But we all know this - which is why Rudd's enjoyment of his ear wax is a similar example of "information" that was correctly excluded from an encyclopedic article (and probably received far greater media coverage in the US than Howard's comments). But we all know this, yet here we are. Shot info (talk) 00:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Lester inserted this at the time and it was removed due to lack of concensus. I can't see any increased relevance now. Nor, with Howard gone, is the incident likely to have any renewed significance. --Pete (talk) 00:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

What! Lester including something against consensus without discussing it first on the talkpage....no, he would never do that!!!!! Shot info (talk) 00:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

My memory may be faulty on this. Researching it now, but it looks like the first instance was by another account. In any case, it wasn't deemed worthy of inclusion at the time and it is even less so now. --Pete (talk) 00:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yet another discussion ruined by incivility and personal attacks. Completely unprovoked.Lester 00:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Is this another case of Pete forcing his way, yet again? Just remember Pete, there is no consensus to remove it, and is not needed to add it. Timeshift (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec x2)Thanks Lester. Although sometimes I don’t agree with you (although sometimes I do), I appreciate that your replies to me are civil – indeed courteous – and from memory never snarky in a manner that stifles good will and collaboration. This is particularly important on controversial topics.

As for the content, while I agree that a mention of some description of Bush and Howard’s relationship is important – it was enduring, of consequence, and lauded by the two characters themselves – I certainly don’t agree that this Obama “incident” is notable for this article, which is a huge topic. Howard was an incumbent PM, Obama was (and is) a good chance candidate for the American Presidency, and now Howard is no longer there. Of what consequence was the “spat”? None as far as I can tell – whereas, Bush and Howard’s relationship was of consequence. If it notable, then we are opening a Pandora’s box of numerous events that until now have not been included. Ie, the article could grow many times over and would be even more listy than it is now. I would, however, hypothetically support it’s inclusion in an article titled Timeline of the Howard Government.

Regards --Merbabu (talk) 01:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you watch Australian media Merbabu? It's still an issue being raised. Never before has a PM been as partisan (or wrong) as to say one of the major parties is the preferred party of choice by terrorists. This goes directly against what Howard portrays as promoting - a rock solid relationship with the US government. Timeshift (talk) 01:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Timeshift, I haven’t seen it in the media of late, I presume by your word choice you are referring to TV – nor have I seen it overwhelmingly in the print or other media. Even if evidence of continued notable and substantial coverage was provided (I’m sure we can find something somewhere), the interpretation you’ve offered appears to be just that – interpretation. --Merbabu (talk) 01:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Merbabu for remaining courteous, even when we disagree on the content. Some editors may be interested in a previous discussion thread about this. Thanks, Lester 01:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Lester, I'd like your comments on why this old incident has now become encyclopaedic, when in fact it was discussed and rejected at the time. --Pete (talk) 01:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Skyring(Pete), you answered that yourself in the previous discussion, when you said the criteria for it being notable is when it is still in the news after a period of "9 months". Here's an example (News Ltd paper) of it still being in the news after 14 months. I'm using your definition of notable to include it in the article Lester 01:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

One minor mention in all the time that has passed. Yeeees, that may be technically "still in the news", but you're attempting to draw a very long bow, I feel. In any case, the mention is not in the context of an ongoing or building story relevant to Howard. Instead it is a Rudd story. --Pete (talk) 01:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's relevant now that Howard is gone. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

How does that impact the relevancy? What other issues in the Howard article could be/has been taken out as a result of losing power? Timeshift (talk) 01:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

There was no concensus for inclusion at the time of the incident. It can hardly be more relevant now when it is stale and insignificant. If Howard and Obama were heads of government with an existing and ongoing history, it might be worthy of inclusion again, but Howard isn't going to come back, is he? --Pete (talk) 02:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"Howard isn't going to come back, is he?" Is that WP:OR I see? :P Consensus is certainly mixed at the moment, thus there is no reason to remove it from the article. Let's also remember that WP:CONSENSUS changes irrespective of whether the issue is more significant now or not. Timeshift (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Skyring(Pete), I'm not sure what you mean when you say that there was no consensus for inclusion during the previous discussion. When I read through it, it appears everyone was in favour of inclusion except you, and you said it would be notable if the issue was still going in 9 months. In 2007, there were newspaper editorials about it (eg The Baltimore Sun, Feb 2007, USA.) And the newspaper editorials are still coming forth. Example, The Age, Melbourne, March 2008 (word search for 'Obama'), and The Washington Post, April 2008, more than a year since the event. Lester 02:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this latest debate and what has been claimed as to what happened, per the bias debate, indeed shows some editors have less than good intentions. Timeshift (talk) 02:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to speak clearly rather than making it up. Shot info (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

With no consensus here to remove it, it keeps being removed, with personal attacks. What a shame, I can't be bothered contributing to this article anymore when the loud minority insist on things their way and force reverts with no consensus. Timeshift (talk) 04:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Surely it's an obvious thing to include in a short paragraph. I'm all for deleting irrelevant details, but this was pretty big, and as Lester points out it still gets a mention from time to time in both countries. Peter Ballard (talk) 05:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course its notable. Its evidence of the strength of John Howard's political convictions that he'd say something like that to help his side of politics in another country, even with the possibility that he might have had to have worked with Obama as the next president ... if he'd won the 2007 federal election. But maybe he knew he wouldn't be coming back, and this was just a little sign ... anyway, its notable for what it says about John Howard's way of doing politics. Eyedubya (talk) 08:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

This video of Rudd's censure motion on the Obama issue is also of good viewing when judging if this is noteable. Seems 4 find it noteable, 4 find it non-noteable so far going by this discussion... "To accuse the Democratic Party as being the terrorist's part of choice, this is a most serious charge. To accuse the party of Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy and Johnson, of being the terrorist's party of choice. I cannot understand how any responsible leader of this country can say to the nation that it is his serious view that the Democratic Party of the US is the terrorists party of choice, but these are your words prime minister, I did not invent them, they are yours."..."If I stood at this dispatch box that the Republicans if they won would cause an eruption of joy, on the part of Al-queda and terrorists, can you imagine the reaction?" - Rudd. And despite being repeatedly given the chance, Howard did not regret his words. Non-noteable? Hah. Timeshift (talk) 09:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to laugh at Lester's efforts to stuff words into my mouth. Despite what I say to the contrary. It wasn't notable at the time, no editors reinstated the mention in the year or more since, and now, when it's all but an irrelevant memory, Lester and his comrades are talking it up, apparently for the sake of causing a little more disruption. I can see no reason to overturn the established concensus after fourteen months. If Obama becomes president and Howard is recalled to the Prime Ministership and the relationship between the two is relevant and important, then sure, let's revisit this issue. Until then, this trivia doesn't deserve the same amnount of space as real issues in Howard's career. --Pete (talk) 16:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You've already stated your position. It's four-all so far. And per WP:CONSENSUS, "I can see no reason to overturn the established concensus after fourteen months" is invalid, consensus changes without the issue changing. Timeshift (talk) 21:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP no consensus means the default position is you-know-what. But been through this before, numerous times yet, the actual "loud minority" keeps failing to get consensus. Shot info (talk) 23:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me quote the exact words of user:Skyring from the previous discussion: "If it's still on the radar in a month's time, it's notable. --Pete 05:14, 13 February 2007" Skyring(Pete) invited the issue to be revisited in 9 months. Recent newspaper editorials show it's both "on the radar" as well as notable, so Skyring's given criteria has now been fulfilled. I respect user:Merbabu's decision to question the text and put it up for discussion, has he did so politely without edit warring. However, some others who have recently indulged in edit wars to revert the article and delete the Obama incident are not taking into account the many people who feel the text should stay.Lester 23:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP, WP:CONSENSUS. Shot info (talk) 23:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Obama text also meets the WP:BLP criteria. There is nothing libelous in the text (that is, unless Howard libeled Obama!), and it balances the previous praise of Howard by Bush, who praised Howard as a "man of steel". With Hilary Clinton's campaign in its final death throws, Barack Obama is set to take a more prominent place in world history, which ever way it goes. At the least he will be the first African American to stand for presidential election. That's huge. If he wins his status will be iconic. Here we have an Australian PM launch a verbal attack on him that attempts to link him with terrorism. It's very strange that major word newspapers are still reporting on it, and writing editorials about Howard's attack (ie, the recent Washington Post) if the issue is non-notable (ie non memorable). Obama hasn't forgotten. The US press haven't forgotten. Lester 00:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, the Gang of Four need some serious re-education and ideological re-programming on the meaning of notability. Its one thing to wish that an issue would go away, while acknowledging the issue's undeniable existence. It is quite another to fail to see the issue due to blind faith in one's ideological position. This isn't about consensus, its about wishful thinking. Eyedubya (talk) 05:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Eyedubya, how exactly do you see idealogy affecting the position of those opposed to inclusion? Indeed, as I am one who has stated an opposition to inclusion, could you please explain how where you see my idealogical positions, and how they are affecting this debate?

Also, I can assure you there is no shared and consistent idealogical position between those opposed - trust me, the record shows there is no shared view of the world amongst us. (PS, if you are indeed suggesting that this debate is running along your perception of idealogical positions, then it appears to me that the Gang of Four analogy is reversed to your perceptions implied here). --Merbabu (talk) 07:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you understand my sense of humour. All I'm saying is, this discussion needs to be conducted with reference to WP policy on notability, verifiability, etc. and not some people's subjective views and crystal ball gazing speculations. This is an event that has happened, and it has been recorded by reliable sources, and remains under discussion in the public domain, and is relevant to the political persona of John Howard. The argument that it is in the past is nonsensical - everything in a BLP is about past events in a subject's life - the only criterion for inclusion is notability, verifiability, reliability. Conversely, Kevin Rudd's earwax is just that - earwax. Sure, it happened, but did it have any notable political meaning? If people can't tell the difference between earwax and accusations of succour for terrorists, then clearly, they don't understand what notability means either, and would be well advised to read the WP policy. I am not interested in the ideological persuasions of other editors, and I haven't the time to follow up their edit histories to attempt to align them with any specific position - it was a light-hearted allusion to the political nature of some people's editing and the attempt to suppress views they disagree with - for whatever reason. Oh, and the number '4' kinda helped. Eyedubya (talk) 12:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

"If people can't tell the difference between earwax and accusations of succour for terrorists, then clearly, they don't understand what notability means" - Timeshift stands up and applauds. Timeshift (talk) 12:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Merbabu, I just wanted to acknowledge your generosity of spirit with your recent copy edits on this item. Demonstrates that collaboration across difrerence is possible. Thanks. Eyedubya (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Everyone has their moments, even me. ;-) --Merbabu (talk) 04:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

"No consensus for removal"

Looking at the Obama material, I see an editor reinserted it with the comment "No consensus for removal". Given that this material has been the subject of controversy and edit-warring ever since it was inserted, and that after removal of similiar material over a year ago, the article did just fine without it, with those who now fervently insist on its inclusion apparently unconcerned, it seems to me that the status quo is that the article does not include the Obama material. Even if it was not explicitly stated then WP:CONSENSUS for exclusion became the default.

I refer editors to WP:SILENCE. This article does not need consensus to remove the Obama material. It was removed a year ago, no editors saw fit to restore it, and consensus grew as a result of this implicit consent. The situation is that consensus is required to insert it.

Would those who wish to include the Obama material like to comment on how their actions conform to established wikipolicy? --Pete (talk) 12:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

It was removed, as you know, by yourself, over a year ago. This was done despite all other editors in that previous discussion being in favour of inclusion. I don't call that "consensus". Your practice of deleting cited content as your first course of action, and then edit waring to keep the content out, violates many Wikipedia rules. You may like to read the guidelines about deleting. This edit waring makes discussion difficult and increases the likelihood that the issue must be mediated. Consensus can only work among reasonable editors who make a good faith effort to work together in a civil manner. Will you agree to stop edit waring, and agree to be civil? Lester 14:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you please read WP:SILENCE? Your views on other matters are unhelpful in this context. The Obama material was swiftly deleted and not reinserted. People may say what they like in discussion, but the consensus you claim to have found there didn't extend to any editor actually caring enough to reinstate it. Fifteen months went by. Fifteen months in which you and the other editors reviewed and heavily edited and battled over this article. At no time did you or any other editor think that the Obama material was noteworthy or relevant or encyclopaedic. Not enough to reinsert it. According to WP:SILENCE, that's a strong implication of consensus.

Now we see this stale old material reinserted, and four edit warriors jump up to claim that it is noteworthy and consensus must be found for removal. I say that this is contrary to wikipolicy, it is disruptive, and it is a waste of everybody's time to battle over this trivia.

If you can't comment on these points of wikipolicy, despite repeated invitations to do so, then I will assume that you agree with WP:SILENCE and your objections are purely a matter of your own personal opinion, and you wish to place your views above those of the community.

As for myself, I'm happy to abide by consensus, but I cannot see that there is any consensus for inclusion. The status quo for fifteen months was that John Howard's biographical article did not mention the spat with Obama. The arguments now put forward that this old material is relevant, notable, and worthy of inclusion strike me as contrived and shallow.

You will notice that I made no objection to your addition of material covering Howard's relationship with Bush. I think that this subject is one that is important to understanding the Howard years. After all, here we are at war in Iraq, when similar Commonwealth nations such as New Zealand and Canada are not. Obviously the USA-AUS relationship is a distinctive one and the close personal alliance of Bush and Howard has had a definite and historic impact. Maybe if Howard had staid on as head of government, then the Howard-Obama relationship might have grown increasingly prickly, with effects on our alliance. But that didn't happen, and instead of turning into something significant, Howard's comments of fifteen months ago are now of minor interest only. --Pete (talk) 17:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

More than a year later, Obama raised the issue with Australian politicians. That renewed the issue and proved that the issue is high in Obama's relations with Australia. The renewed issue made the news again recently, including newspaper editorials in major US papers. This is because Obama's status has also increased since the incident originally occurred. Lester 21:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

For me, the last two sentences of Pete's post above sum up the content part of this dispute:

Maybe if Howard had staid on as head of government, then the Howard-Obama relationship might have grown increasingly prickly, with effects on our alliance. But that didn't happen, and instead of turning into something significant, Howard's comments of fifteen months ago are now of minor interest only.

It's now trivia, and an academic question of no significance.

But, still the question of process remains. I'm not sure how WP:SILENCE applies here. It is not a policy by any means - merely someone's thought on an issue. Further, I'm sure that an opposing essay could be found, however, my disinclination to trawl wikipedia for such page to back up wikilawyering, is only surpassed by my disinclination to edit war. But not to worry, there are plenty here who seem able to maintain the edit/lawyer trenches for both "sides". Indeed, one doesn't have to find another essay page to counter WP:SILENCE - the page is vague it could be used against itself, and a reverse interpretation to that offered by Skyring is clearly evident. Clearly, the status quo is contended. Unfortunately, even then, the old "get consensus" chestnut is thrown up, while every effort is made to make that impossible. Works everytime.

The Obama content is still redundant and trivial, no matter how messed up the lawyered process for exclusion is. --Merbabu (talk) 22:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I quote from one of Wikipedia's Seven Planks of Wisdom: "Consensus is an inherent part of the wiki process. Consensus is typically reached as a natural product of the editing process; generally someone makes a change or addition to a page, and then everyone who reads the page has an opportunity to either leave the page as it is or change it. In essence, silence implies consent, if there is adequate exposure to the community. In the case of policy pages a higher standard of participation and consensus is expected."

In fact this is the lead paragraph in one of our fundamental wikilaws, and presumably the mention of WP:SILENCE has been discussed, endorsed and possibly received a gold pawprint from Jimbo the Dogking. Granted, we're talking about an absence of material, rather than an addition, but it was added, deleted and left that way for over a year, a year in which the current Bama-boosters were heavily into the John Howard article.

I won't say I'm tearing my hair out over the battles here and other places. In fact I kind of like to finish a long shift and see what new nonsensities have been added for my entertainment. But I use Wikipedia extensively as a valuable resource, and while it works just fine for subjects such as The Louvre or Existentialism, whenever we get into political articles, the material is undependable for serious seekers of knowledge. We owe a considerable responsibility to our readers to provide useful information, rather than slanted, fulsome or incomplete coverage because one side has worn down the other in discussion or revert wars. --Pete (talk) 01:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know about consensus. It's not something unique to wikipedia, in fact it's fundamental to live, career, etc. It is about working together - not bunkering down into a set position without budging. I see none of the former, plenty of the latter. If you want consensus, you need to work for it - if you don't want it (I can see you don't), then you don't get it. Consensus is also about accepting something - it's not a veto tool to be used when it suits (or when it suits to poison consensus, or just refuse to provide it if it doesn't suit). We cannot demand wikipedia meet a standard (a standard on which you and I agree on in this case). If the community wants rubbish - as seems to be the case here - then that's what it provides. Indeed, with consensus having failed (little evidence that anyone actually tried to achieve it), then it comes to raw numbers, doesn't it?

How does WP:SILENCE come into play here? There is clearly no silence. And "consensus can change". It is a stupid inclusion, but it's time we got over it and stop wasting our time. --Merbabu (talk) 02:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

There was a period of over a year when the article did not include the Obama material, and it was not reinserted by those who are now hotbloodedly demanding its inclusion. So the status quo is that the article does not have it. We do not need consensus for removal - we already have that consensus through WP:SILENCE.

For consensus in Wikipedia, that doesn't mean we count noses and the winning side gets to dictate the wording. It's a matter of coming up with a wording we can all live with. Two ways of doing this - to find neutral words or to present both views. I tend to prefer the latter, actually, as the reader is given more information.

But in this case it's in or out. The Obama drama would usefully fit under a "Trivia" heading, if we had one, because it is simply not relevant to Howard's career in any meaningful way. Interesting in itself, but well outside the main thrust of this article. --Pete (talk) 06:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia community changes - move with the times!

To recap then: a) this item was felt to be notable 15 months ago by some editors. b) An editor removed it without seeking consensus to do so. c) The issue resurfaced in the international media. d) An editor decided to reintroduce the item into the article. e) The same editor who removed it without consensus is seeking to remove it again. What's changed? Well, in the course of a year, the issue has resurfaced, one of the interlocutants in the issue has become far more significant, while the subject of the article has become a lot less significant - thus dramatically changing the notability of some aspects of this BLP - in favour of some items, and against others. Only time will tell how significant much of the current content turns out to be. In this instance, the item refers to someone who stands a good chance of being the next President of the USA - thus making comments about him by the article's subject notable. In addition to the changes in external circumstances related to the notability of the topic, there have been changes in the make-up of WP editors engaged with this page. At least one of the editors who are now calling for the inclusion of this item wasn't involved in the original discussion, didn't even have this page on a watchlist. It needs to be noted that the constitution of the WP 'community' is constantly changing - it grows by a huge number of editors every minute in fact. And with the addition of new editors, come new voices, opinions and values. Those calling for the deletion of this item seem to think that the editors of 15 months ago are the only ones whose views, opinions, values etc. matter here. Well, while the tenacity of some editors is certainly notable, the same can't be said to the intellectual content of their arguments related to the notability of this item. Notability has clearly been established, all that remains is to find a form of words that is acceptable. Some work has been done here by a couple of editors already. Its likely more will follow.Eyedubya (talk) 08:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

A couple of points about WP:SILENCE. First, it is an essay, not a guideline. Second, if you must know, the reason I didn't contest the Obama issue a year ago (or many other issues on Australian politics pages) is because I've got better things to do than argue and engage in revert wars on those pages. On notability: Pete said a year ago words to the effect of "let's see if people are still talking about this in a month's time" - well people are from time to time, and I believe that demonstrates it is. People go to Wikipedia to get the true story on things such as this - so why can't we present it? Now, to move forward, I suggest the issue can be presented in a more balanced way. The last rendition - Howard's comments + Obama's response - reads pretty anti-Howard. If we could have one sentence with Howard's response to Obama - I believe he said something along the lines that he was really making the point that we need to stay in Iraq than interfering with US politics - then I think we've got a reasonably balanced paragraph (the statement, one opinion against, one opinion for) that more people will be happy with. Peter Ballard (talk) 08:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It's so funny to see Pete go ape over policy, yet completely ignores the consensus policy that says consensus changes and that "consensus agreed the reverse x months ago" has no relevance or bearing. So he is either unaware of the policy, or purposefully ignoring it. Either way, very amusing (and indicative). Timeshift (talk) 12:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Glad to amuse you, dear! My life is spent making people happy and it's always good to put a smile on someone's face. You certainly give me a great deal of pleasure. I think I mentioned the consensus changes thing early on, but you may have missed it. As I said before, I'm happy to go with consensus, if one emerges. --Pete (talk) 17:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Looking at this we had a consensus that the information didnt appear to be of significance in relation to this article which could be substantially larger given the amount of time JH had in office and the impact that had. But the situation has changed in that Obama looks likely to be the Democratic Party candidate in the 2008 US Presidential elections. He raised the statement as an issue again, this makes JH's statement significant in Aus-US relationships more so if Obama becomes president. Whether it gets included now or not I can see this being revisited over the coming year anyway. Gnangarra 12:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a shame admin opinions dont count for more, because they've all taken the "add it back in" side so far. Says a lot about the dispute too. Timeshift (talk) 12:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL, I'm kinda a swinging voter! in reality I think this issue is need of an Election to decide long term whether it should be included, in meantime inclusion does appear to be the logical conclusion, though equally WP:NOT#NEWS could be thrown around, but that would need some thoughtful interpretation as its application is presented more towards no notable people than specific events for notable people ... Gnangarra 13:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT#NEWS is a very long bow to draw ;-) Timeshift (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

but this discussion is drawing longbows ;-) Gnangarra 14:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Did Howard criticise any other foreign opposition leaders or candidates in this way? The incident seems unique in that regard. Imagine if in the 1960s Howard had a spat with Martin Luther King. Would that be notable enough for our article? Obama is already one of the most significant African American figures in history, and was clearly angered by Howard's attack. At a recent Obama press conference, a journalist fumbled his words and accidentally linked Obama with terrorism. Obama retorted that he has had to put up with this kind of accusation in the past (one of which came from our Mr Howard). It's a big issue for Obama, and part of the story of his run for the White House. We must also look at this from an international perspective. Of all the words Howard ever spoke, what would be the most notable and remembered by the U.S public? Another reason for inclusion is the mark it left from an American viewpoint. Lester 14:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

That makes a solid reason for inclusion in the Obama article as JH was a country leader when making the comment. The US part of the argument should be dismissed as bias, as this isnt an encyclopedia for the US public. The question is how strong is it in relation to JH, this is why I see this being as unresolvable until we know what happens with Obama's presidential hopes. As its unresolvable I default to inclusion because its significant that a "head of state" made such a comment, the comment still gets referred to and it does appear that in the future it could have even greater significance in relation to AUS-US relations at which point it will need to be included and probably expanded. Gnangarra 14:59, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I dunno. If Rudd had made the comment, then it would have more significance, as there is every possibility of Rudd and Obama being heads of government at the same time. Howard and Obama are never going to have any sort of official relationship. I know Timeshift thinks that Howard could make a return to power, and I'm happy to offer attractive odds for Timeshift and his money. Likewise, despite Lester's wishes above, I doubt that Obama loses any sleep over Howard's comment, and as for the general U.S. public having any kind of perception of John Howard, that's something to chuckle over. Most of them wouldn't be able to name the last leaders of Canada or Mexico, I dare say. I doubt that too many Australians could either, come to think of it. --Pete (talk) 17:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Stop the edit war

Skyring(Pete), will you please stop edit waring!!!! It is completely unacceptable that you persist with your revert war (yet another one), while at the same time falsely accusing others of edit waring. Your edit waring behaviour is causing the break down of reasonable communication between other editors, and is destroying any hope of good faith editing or discussion. Wikipedia rules are thrown out the window, while the direction of the article is decided upon who edit wars the most. Lester 06:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry? What brought on that outburst? --Pete (talk) 06:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Which bit of 'stop the edit war' do you not understand Pete? Timeshift (talk) 13:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

My last edit to this article was four days ago, with an edit summary backed up by reasoning on the talk page. Which you reverted without any summary or explanation. PKB. I'm puzzled as to why Lester looks at an article which has been quiet for a few days and thinks that an edit war is raging, that I'm to blame, and I need a passionate plea to get moi to stop. I suggest that he look at the facts before making a personal attack. And you do the same. Perhaps you'd like to apologise for going off half-dicked? --Pete (talk) 14:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Which were the last edits to the page. You may not intensely edit war on this page but you do repeatedly edit war. Timeshift (talk) 15:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Which bit of 'stop the edit war' do you not understand, comrade? --Pete (talk) 15:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Howard's commentary about Obama is notable for the breach of the convention of non-interference in the ordinary domestic politics of other countries that it represents (being a criticism of one popular aspirant for the American Presidency) combined with the fact that Howard had portrayed the Labor Opposition as being weak/unreliable on the US-Australia alliance. --Brendan [ contribs ] 11:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Its also notable in the Obama raised it again about 6-12 months later even though he knew the government had changed. Gnangarra 12:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

But does any of this mean much to Pete? Or is he still thinking up a new line of attack since his 'consensus said otherwise a year ago' line went down the drain? Timeshift (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The recent discussion is tending towards a censensus for inclusion with more neutral wording. As such, I'm happy to go along, as I've repeatedly said. Kindly cease making unwarranted and incivil personal attacks. --Pete (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You're no longer going on about the consensus formed a year ago? No more Obama reverts? Really? Truly? Yay! We can move on now and continue to build the article! Oh what a glorious day. Until the next issue... Timeshift (talk) 16:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you go and pester some other people, TS? --Pete (talk) 16:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Or, we could all climb on a big yellow bus and do it all over again at Vicente Fox and Adrienne Clarkson, right? Eyedubya (talk) 21:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

While we sip tea and marvel at our new found consensus, the sound of the edit war can be heard coming from the article page next door. What's the tally? Article reverts by user:Skyring(Pete) = 1, 2, 3, 4

5. Article reverts by user:Shot info = 1, 2. Lester 23:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I haven't been firing any of those shots for the best part of a week, which makes your rant above doubly inappropriate. The consensus hasn't changed as far as I can see, with no consensus for inclusion, though it seemed for a moment there was a change that way. And, considering that Shotinfo and I are on the same side in this bout, and it takes two sides to make an edit war, it looks like you aren't telling the whole story. Who's making the reverts going the other way? You are silent on this point. Can we have a bit of honesty here, please? --Pete (talk) 23:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The reason that reverting the article to delete cited information is worse than restoring it, is because the deletions happen before the community has a chance to discuss the content. Reverting the article to delete content is an extreme measure, that should only be used to remove libel or blatant vandalism. Neither of those issues relates to the Obama content. Lester 00:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Look, if you don't want to admit that you made mistakes, you are misleading the community of editors and you are totally unable to see anyone else's point of view, then that's fine. I pointed it out, you ignored it. We understand. Just don't pretend that anyone else is fooled, OK? --Pete (talk) 00:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, anyone who looks at the edit history of the article for May 2008 will clearly see who is doing most of the reverts.Lester

That's as may be. The fact remains that you are quite unable to admit to any error on your own part, with the result that you are being deliberately misleading in your description of events. I think this whole thing has got to the stage of being poisonous to constructive editing. Your misdirected rant beginning this section sparked a new round. I don't see any consensus to change the status quo to include the material, and Shot info makes the valid point that WP:BLP applies. --Pete (talk) 00:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The admins are well versed on policy but I don't see any of them using WP:BLP to push their points. Timeshift (talk) 01:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Come on people – point scoring doesn’t help. Getting along (WP:CIVIL) is there for a reason - how can you work together, if you can't get along - no wonder there is no "consensus". It seems a decision has been made for now – ie, inclusion. It’s a bad one in my mind, but ultimately wikipedia is a “community” and it will live or die by the decisions made. That’s the way it works. Although I would suggest a request for comment or similar be made as it’s the same old editors here discussing, which is quite narrow.

As for BLP, I’m not sure how that applies. There is no suggestion that the info is contentious, unverifiable, or libellous. (ie, inclusion is contentious, not the info itself) Rather, the question as I see it, is one of notability, which I fail to see how that fits into BLP. So while I think inclusion is silly, I can’t see how it fits BLP – perhaps it could be pointed out to me.--Merbabu (talk) 01:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This article _is_ a BLP. This means that there needs to be a consensus for inclusion. Material considered contentious or not notable can be excluded. So far there is not a consensus and the claims of "majority" have fallen by the wayside (although with the discussion now happening a consensus is starting to emerge, no thanks to the party hacks who would rather information be inserted regardless of policy). This is BLP-101 and doesn't need discussion. Convince editors of the informations notworthiness, stop the attacks on other editors opinions, follow policy and lo, consensus will appear. Until then, we are in limbo. Per BLP, "when in doubt, leave it out". Shot info (talk) 02:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the current ANi complaint: The resolution to this is for User:Skyring to 1. Stop Edit Waring (five reverts in the past few days eg.1, 2, 3, 4, 5) and 2. For ::User:Skyring to use standard Wikipedia content dispute resolution processes instead of bothering the ANi board about his own edit war. It's the edit waring that overrides and nullifies the discussion of other editors. Lester 01:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec)He claims that OTHERS are goading HIM. Oh that's rich. Or perhaps it's a leapfrogging tactic. Timeshift (talk) 01:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This is all a shame. It’s not that hard for editors (plural) on any “side” to pull their heads in, quit dwelling on personal animosity and well-known ideological trenches, and focus on content instead of each other. This last section is ridiculous with all the point scoring and dredging up past grievances. No wonder there’s no consensus. --Merbabu (talk) 01:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

True. It's better to disengage, but that's why we have policy, to help us through these situations. By fossiling the relative positions, no consensus will form and the default BLP position "wins". So it's often to the benefit of those who wish to include information, to be inclusive, rather than the silly situation that we are in where the default position of the so called "majority" is immediate ad-hom. Excellent tactic to help form consensus, per WP:CONSENSUS. Shot info (talk) 02:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)