Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 15:51, 28 May 2008

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators may edit, for voting.

Motions and requests by the parties

Previous ArbCom discussion?

1) On her blog last year, ex-arb Kelly Martin remarked about the current arbs that, "rumor has it that they've traded over 600 emails to date on their internal mailing list discussing what to do about SlimVirgin and Jayjg, without coming to any decision or conclusion." [1]. If so, this might be relevant for this case. I guess the easiest way to confirm whether Kelly's statement is true or not is simply to ask directly. I'll phrase it as a yes or no question. Has the ArbCom, within the past year or so, held any discussions addressing concerns about SlimVirgin's and/or Jayjg's editing or administrative actions in Wikipedia or other Wikimedia project? Cla68 (talk) 04:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JP, you can't even say yes or no, even if it might pertain to this case? Cla68 (talk) 20:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Discussions on the list are and will remain private. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

my view is that it would be inappropriate for jpgordon to comment further. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oversighted SlimVirgin userspace page?

2) Request confirmation from an arbitrator on if this page from SlimVirgin's userspace has been oversighted User:SlimVirgin/GNT [2] [3]. Cla68 (talk) 21:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rephrase question for the arbs, if the quote below is accurate, was the page oversighted from SV's userspace because it was, in fact, being used as described by Gnetwerker? Cla68 (talk) 03:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

[Response to B] If the page was just used to draft some changes for her userpage then why was it oversighted? If it was used to draft content for a BLP, content that was later determined to be in violation of the BLP policy, then I can understand it being oversighted. If an arbitrator could clear up the issue here, if any, that would put this question to rest. Cla68 (talk) 23:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[To KWSN] I can't read your link, was it admin deleted? If so, could you post the diff content below? Cla68 (talk) 01:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what I understand to be the admin-deleted statement from the editor mentioned by Kwsn complaining to SV about the oversighted page in question:

“

Please stop harassing me:

You accusations of sockpuppetry against me have gone way overboard. It appears that you have embarked on a mission to label every anonymous IP or single-use account that has edited any page I have ever touched to be one of my sockpuppets, as well as labelling anyone with the temerity to challenge you publically as such. You have little (in many cases no) evidence to support these claims, other than a spurious "Contributions" link. It would appear from Wikipedia and various other public forums that you have many enemies, but blaming me for every nasty thing that happens on Wikipedia is unwise and unreasonable. It is unwise as it conveniantly blames one person (me) for everything you don't like, rather than the multitude who you have offended; and it is unreasonable, as the accounts/IPs you label as sockpuppets have, in many cases, made numerous contributions to articles with which I have no history, and in most other cases have done nothing offensive whatsoever. I have no doubt that, as an administrator and immune from scrutiny, that you will change your behaviour, but I will say this:

I am not using the accounts you have listed as either suspected or actual sockpuppets;
I am not harassing you, stalking you, or involved in any articles not in my contribution list; and
I do not appreciate your punitive laying of every nasty action on Wikipedia at my doorstep.

The situation with User:Anomicene was unfortunate (and I won't explain it because you wouldn't believe me anyway), but you more than anyone, are now in danger of fostering a permanent state of ill-will, and I suggest that, as you have counselled others so often, just move on, or failing that, please apply more diligence to finding your perpetrator(s), as it is not I. -- Gnetwerker 17:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

”

Cla68 (talk) 03:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

I'm not an arb, but the lack of any revisions seems to me like it has been. My question now is why? Kwsn (Ni!) 22:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Concur, but what does this have to do with the case? Nobody involved in this case has oversight permission, so if oversight policy were violated (I don't see how it could have been, but if it were) it's outside the scope of this case. --B (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, I googled it and found http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=9671&st=0&p=34156&#entry34156 - this falls into the "who cares" category unless there's something more here. --B (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at that thread, it's basically SV using a subpage to track someone else, something she cuts down Cla68 for in the evidence section. I'm curious now as to what the actual contents are, and why it had to be oversighted if it was just a page with evidence of wrong doings. Kwsn (Ni!) 23:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The scope of this case should not be considered limited to the initially named parties, and any actions by checkusers and oversighters that relates to the named parties would certainly fall within the scope of this case. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 00:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Un-indent: I did some digging... and found something interesting. The user in question asked SV to leave him alone, obviously she didn't stop. Kwsn (Ni!) 00:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't look like the deleted revisions of Special:Undelete/User_talk:SlimVirgin/temp were deleted for any privacy reason or anything like that. Rather, ElinorD (talk · contribs) was splitting SlimVirgin's talk page archives into separate pages for her and it looks like she stopped before finishing. I don't see any reason not to make these revisions available for evidence gathering, though presumably that decision should be left to a clerk. Jayvdb, do you feel it would be appropriate to restore this page? --B (talk) 04:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I cant answer that on the spot, but I'll start looking through these deleted revisions. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 06:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't the contents of the /GNT page that Cla mentions above though - which has almost certainly been oversighted. No deleted edits. Nothing in the move log. Just multiple deletions int eh deletion log indicating there was somethign there at some point. Viridae ^Talk 07:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure; you will need to ask arbcom about that page. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 07:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JzG is added as a party

3) Per arb's comments, JzG is added as a party to the case. Following the close of the case, it is renamed to C68-FM-JzG-SV.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Just want to make it official Kwsn (Ni!) 22:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This case is complicated enough without that addition. Viridae ^Talk 23:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a proposal, not a statement of something that has already happened, right? This is a really bad idea. Other than some of the same people being involved, there is zero overlap. I really wish the arbs would reverse themselves on this one. --B (talk) 01:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't really matter - the principles are essentially the same. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

B is absolutely correct. The arbs need to take the JzG case separately. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The JzG case is about JzG's behaviour; there is very little confluence, and I would hope the arbitrators treat and consider it separately. Neıl 龱 07:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Neil and B, JzG's issues while similar are not related to FM, SV, and Cla's issues. And shouldn't be the same hearing. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't for the life of me see how turning this into the Omnibus Editor and Administrator Misconduct Act helps to detangle an already complicated situation. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Moving Forward: Well, it appears that Chris has cast the 4th net !vote to merge, so it seems that it will be merged anyway. I will note that we now have over 750 links on the evidence page and for what it is worth I concur with Raymond. --Dragon695 (talk) 18:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Neil and others, the two are separate and should be treated as such. DuncanHill (talk) 21:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MOOT now that the arbs voted to merge the case. JzG is a party. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More Oversighted SlimVirgin edits?

4) In this this thread [4] at ANI, some of the links to SlimVirgin's and another editor's edits don't work, including [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]. Since I'm not receiving the "this page was deleted" or "you're not authorized" screens, I assume those diffs were oversighted. Looking at the ANI discussion, I don't see why they should have been oversighted, if they were. Would the arbitrators look at them, determine if they were oversighted or oversighted properly, and, if not, restore them and provide the name of the oversighter and the date(s) that the oversighting was done? Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 02:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Cool, the stereotypical clusterfu*k. We as a community have apparently come a long way since those dark ages. I'd like to learn at least the necessary basics about the circumstances of any oversightings that took place. dorftrottel (talk) 00:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template

5)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed temporary injunctions

Motion to close without prejudice

It's my view that we need to accept that this process has derailed, and has very little chance to provide a net benefit, and is almost certain to harm the project. I strongly believe in blanking these pages without prejudice, and forcing at least a week's breathing space. It may well be the best course of action to pretend that this application for an arb case never happened. If you agree, please help by supporting this motion.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Support - Privatemusings (talk) 01:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Maybe inviting the parties to WP:NTWW (or a private conference call) to talk it out face-to-face would be more fruitful than proving the other guilty? Merzul (talk) 02:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmph. It's obvious that this process is not going to be a net benefit to the encyclopedia, whatever its outcome. On the other hand, the festering issues which underly it are not going to magically disappear if we blank the pages. Dunno. MastCell ^Talk 02:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, the worst outcome would be to ignore the issues at hand. This is clearly a huge issue streaming through more of the encyclopedia then we're seeing here so far. We have an opportunity in this RFAR to at least try to fix the many, many wrongdoings present. Dismissing this case would harm Wikipedia's reputation. Are both parties completely right in what they've done? Dismissing implies a yes to that answer, which I shudder at. Wizardman 02:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because the outcome I see by making this go away is that it will come back about half a year down the road with new, even more vindictive rhetoric. This needs to be dealt with, because while the decision will probably hurt the encyclopedia, putting it off will DEFINITELY hurt the encyclopedia, and to a larger extent. Dr. e X treme 02:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are some major issues here, which is why both were accepted (and merged presumably due to the direction this case is going in) - there's no basis for this request, particularly where you are not a party to this case. Reject. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The basis for the request is that Privatemusing cares deeply about the Wiki. Rationally speaking, the opposes here are irrefutable, and yet I feel Privatemusing is absolutely right. Of course the underlying issues need to be resolved, and I trust the committee will rule wisely on this, but the question is if maybe something outside the box would be more effective and graceful. Best wishes, Merzul (talk) 03:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The case would not have been accepted if no other attempts (even outside of the box) had been made to resolve this issue. It is now in the final step of the dispute resolution process due to the failure to resolve the dispute in earlier steps (which includes any other means). Therefore, while the user who requested this may be concerned, there still is no basis for the request, particularly from a non-party. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I respect PM's desire to bring harmony to the wiki, but these are long-standing issues that must be resolved. This case is one which has potential to strike at the heart of the double standard that some editors feel exist. --Dragon695 (talk) 12:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with PM, but don't think it would help. The underlying problems are far to entrenched. It's to bad really that in raymond's words it's become the 'Omnibus Admistorator Reform and Civility Patrol Act of 2008' --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are multiple serious allegations of abuse of inappropriate conduct. Unfortunately, all of those are being tied up in one arbcom case, even though they are mostly separate and have little to do with each other. Closing this case and reopening five separate ones would probably be a good idea from the standpoint of not needing a scorecard to keep track of it all. But closing it, putting our fingers in our ears, and humming really loud is not a good idea. I'm not sure which of these would be the result of closing the case. --B (talk) 21:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
opppose - sort the case out, and exhonerate SV, FM and JzG William M. Connolley (talk) 21:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Merzul. VoIP exchange may help avoid some of the shortcomings and possible fallacies of hypertext communication. dorftrottel (talk) 21:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Suspending this case will not make the underlying issues go away. If we go through an RFC on SlimVirgin like Cla68 originally planned, we'll still be back here in a few weeks. It's better to solve the problem sooner rather than later. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 22:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - if we stop this now, what then? Without resolution, this is only going to cause more bad blood and cliquism. The only reason it's getting to be unworkable is because of the JzG case being merged in, which was a mistake, in my opinion, since it's going to make this case far more difficult to resolve. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 20:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template

2)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

3)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

4)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Questions to the parties

Question from FT2

One question that seems important to check with all parties and anyone else:

It might be helpful to give some (simple) wiki-historic background on these matters (so to speak) and "how it reached where it is now", in addition to the usual discussion of the parties' conduct (how they have acted and its impact).

By that I mean, without setting out a fishing net or any kind of wild conspiracy-building, it might be useful to have a couple of comments on the extent to which this is about the conduct of specific individuals, and the extent (if any) to which the problematic conduct(s) are also driven by the playing out of some kind of underlying issue, dispute or division, such as groups, cliques, historic conflicts, or opposing agendas/viewpoints (if any).

I ask since this might be an important factor in assessing the conduct of the parties, in a fair and informed way, and against an appropriate context. Or it might not.

Comments (if any) on the evidence page please. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 11:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further thought: Where possible I'd encourage those giving evidence (on either "side") to ensure they also give consideration to good faith explanations, as necessary. Whilst we're ultimately looking at users' conduct and its impact here, not every problematic action will have been undertaken for a disruptive or hostile reason. Up-front request for a good quality, reasoned discussion. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 12:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:Ncmvocalist

Standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, evidence, [13]. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Support as threats cannot be tolerated. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 03:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Administrators expected to lead by example

7) Administrators are expected to lead by example, and act as role models for users in the community. To a greater extent than other editors, administrators are expected to observe the principles of Wikiquette by behaving in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others. Sustained or serious disruption of Wikipedia is incompatible with the status of administrator. Even if no misuse of administrative tools took place, administrators whose actions are inappropriate and disruptive risk being desysopped by the Arbitration Committee.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

From 2 previous cases - combined both. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support, as worded. dorftrottel (talk) 17:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It's not hypocrisy to hold leaders to a higher standard. Dr. e X treme 18:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Needs the other "admins aren't expected to be perfect" boilerplate arbcom finding to be useful in context of an arbcom case. This isn't paper so no need to combine previous rulings. Linking "Sustained or serious disruption of Wikipedia" with an expectation of Wikiquette, is a large leap. The large gaping chasm between the two is why they are separate principle because in general, Wikiquette violations don't constitute anything close to "Sustained or serious disruptions" nor should they be inferred by overly broad and vindictive interpretation. --DHeyward (talk) 14:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there are currently endeavours to adjust policy to reflect reality a bit closer than it currently does, e.g. paying tribute to the more regularly encountered combined phenomenon of an unwavering observance of WP:CIVIL by editors with a non-neutral stance. I for one think it's not a far stretch at all to recognise a seriously disruptive potential in 'simple', but 'diff-provenly' regular violations of Wikiquette by admins — whose job it is to guide and assist other editors wherever necessary and possible, and to set an example by not letting their personal opinions interfere with the neutrality of their judgement and actions. dorftrottel (talk) 16:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support as even if being an admin is "no big deal," they were still in effect elected by the community and so means the community has certain expectations in them. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 03:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Know yourself

8) It is important for all users, but especially administrators, to be aware of their own agendas, feelings and passions, and to deal with them appropriately, avoiding both biased editing and ill-considered administrative actions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Standard, I think. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support, even though it may be difficult for all of us at times. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 03:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Too sane. dorftrottel (talk) 05:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MeatBall:DefendEachOther

9) An administrator is expected to refrain from issuing blocks (or threatening to issue blocks) in response to personal attacks or incivility directed at themselves.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Modified slightly from Tango case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure on this one, as if someone makes an obvious personal attack against an admin that no one could reasonable interpret not to be a personal attack, perhaps the admin should be able to block or threaten a block, but again when it is really obvious? Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 03:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Conduct outside Wikipedia

10) A user's conduct outside of Wikipedia is generally not subject to Wikipedia policies or sanctions. This includes actions such as sending private e-mails or commenting on Wikipedia and its users in other forums. However, in truly extraordinary circumstances, a user who engages in egregiously disruptive off-wiki conduct endangering the project and its participants may be subject to sanction. An example is a user whose off-wiki activities directly threaten to damage another user's real-world life or employment in retaliation for his or her editing.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

From a previous case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Kwsn (Ni!) 00:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support, but again, please note my link above about "however." Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 03:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Guilt by association

11) Mere membership by an editor in some external website that has members who have been involved in violations of policy is not actionable without evidence that the editor has some personal involvement in said violations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

From a recent proposed decision. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compliance

12) All editors are expected to comply with the rulings of the Arbitration Committee.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

maybe but kinda dicely in a volenteer community. Not oppose or even not activly oppose would be closer.Geni 10:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template

tbn) {text of Proposed principle}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

Previous ArbCom rulings involving FeloniousMonk

1) FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been subject to several remedies from previous rulings by the arbitration committee. In the case of WebEx and Min Zhu, he was admonished not to use his administrative tools or give warnings in content disputes in which he is involved. He was warned in the case of Agapetos angel and was instructed to seek dispute resolution rather than edit warring when involved with content disputes. In the case of ScienceApologist, he was counseled to consult with other administrators with respect to disruptive users and to cooperate with them in a collegial way.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Straight-forward. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the point of bringing up two-year old issues? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They demonstrate a continuing, long-term pattern of inappropriate behaviour. This indicates that FeloniousMonk's recent actions are not an aberrance from the norm which could be put down to circumstance, rather that his behaviour has always been this way. Neıl 龱 08:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk

2) FeloniousMonk has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator, both in using his administrative tools ([14]) ([15]); and engaged in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including threats ([16]); personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith ([17]). He is also unwilling to acknowledge criticism from his peers of his administrative actions when it is given (example).

2.1) FeloniousMonk has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator, both in using his administrative tools ([18]) ([19]); and engaged in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including threats ([20]); personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith ([21]), and has made meritless accusations against other editors on several occasions ([22]). He is also unwilling to acknowledge criticism from his peers of his administrative actions when it is given (example).

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Open to suggestions for further tweaking. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your example of "unwilling to accept criticism" for "adminsitrative action" is a bit weak. His "action" was a warning, not a block or even a page protection. And he goes on to say in the same thread fruther down "I take your point". You seem to have a cherry picked one response and it should be stricken. This was the only evidence I checked since it was the only one direct linked but if the rest of it is just as poor, it should be deleted. --DHeyward (talk) 14:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Threatening to use your admin actions is close enough as it can have a chilling effect, like a block. (It might've made more sense if you read the principles (as one should) before jumping to a finding, let alone selectively cherrypicking one part of it.) As for failing to accept criticism, I wasn't convinced that he did get the point if he says "The road runs both ways, good acts beget good acts. That wasn't his first CIVIL warning" before saying "but I take your point". It is a fundamental flaw in his administrative abilities to think that an editors misconduct legitimizes his poor-judgement as an admin. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I read the principles and found none that corresponded to this finding. Warning a user to cease a particular behavior or risk being blcoked is not a threat. This is obvious giving the standard warning templates (And why they aren't called "threat" templates). Nor is a warning that "you will be blocked" a use of admin tools as any editor can leave a warning that says the same thing. The "admin tool" part is only in play if the block is executed. Secondly, you seem to be trying to stretch his reaction to an editor as being unable to accept criticism from his peers. FM expressing displeasure at an editors behavior while at the same time acknowledging that another admins criticism is esesntially a valid viewpoint runs contrary to your proposed fact. In fact, it seems to be the exact opposite in this case. He acknowledeges the criticism of his peers despite an editors misconduct. --DHeyward (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you didn't look hard enough then. Administrators are expected to observe, to a greater extent than editors, the relevant Wikiquette principles. They also should not use (or threaten to use) their tools in a dispute, or where incivility is directed at themselves. There is a massive difference between a warning (or even a good faith warning template) and how and what he actually said at that talk page - he effectively inflamed the dispute and made no apology for it. His philosophy that only "good acts beget good acts" (demonstrated through the pattern of his poor judgement) shows that his conduct is incompatible with what is expected of an admin of 3-4 years. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you need to read wat FM wrote. His philosophy isn't only "good acts beget good acts". He stated a what is a truism. He is basically saying "1 Equals 1" and you are interpreting that as he only believes "1 Equals 1" so he doesn't believe "2 equals 2". He basically said "If the other editor hadn't been incivil, I wouldn't have been incivil, but I understand your point that my being incivil was not appropriate." That's a pretty good acknowledgement and doesn't support your facts. The "threats" that you cite as principles and the "threats" of administrative action are not in the same ballpark. Threatening to use the tools to undelete a page so that it can further WP:BIO violations is a "threat" the way the policy was intended. --DHeyward (talk) 14:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Previous ArbCom rulings involving SlimVirgin

3) SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been subject to findings and remedies in previous rulings by the arbitration committee. In the case of Lyndon LaRouche 2, the Committee made a finding that she engaged in personal attacks, and she was cautioned not to make any personal attacks, even under severe perceived provocation. In the case of Israeli apartheid, she was admonished not to use her administrative tools without prior discussion and consensus, and to avoid using them so as to continue an editing dispute. She was also reminded in that case to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

There is no ArbCom finding that SlimVirgin misused the admin tools during the Israeli Apartheid situation. The only remedy that mentions her name in that case and orders a specific action is, "Humus sapiens, ChrisO, Kim van der Linde, SlimVirgin, and Jayjg are reminded to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur." [23] Cla68 (talk) 01:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Straight-forward. Ncmvocalist (talk) 00:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The remedy in question reads as "All involved administrators are admonished not use their administrative tools without prior discussion and consensus, and to avoid using them so as to continue an editing dispute. Humus sapiens, ChrisO, Kim van der Linde, SlimVirgin, and Jayjg are reminded to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur." - ~~I'm not familiar with the case, but it appears that SV is included among "all involved administrators".~~ As far as I can tell, SV did not at any time protect or unprotect the page or move the page while it was under move protection. Some clarification would be helpful. --Random832 (contribs) 16:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

She became an involved admin when she moved the page (at 22:12 on 4 July 2006). She was therefore subject to the whole remedy. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But saying she was admonished in regards to her use of the administrative tools is disingenuous if there was no allegation that she, personally, had misused the tools in that case. --B (talk) 18:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

She was an involved administrator, so she was admonished - it is irrelevant that others were admonished too. Her name was also specified in the second line (like the others involved). Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But if there was no finding or even an allegation that she did anything wrong, saying she was admonished is silly. It's kinda like when our secretary reminds the whole company to submit their timecards at the end of the pay period. Yes, I, like everyone else, got the reminder. But my boss isn't going to lord it over me on my performance review that the secretary had to admonish me about my timecard. Or, at least, if he does, then my name is Dilbert. This isn't a meaningful finding of fact unless she had actually done something to deserve the warning. My big issue here is that there are legitimate concerns about FM's use of the tools and, according to your claims which I am not yet prepared to offer an opinion on one way or the other, SV's conduct. If those legitimate concerns get lost amongst grandstanding over minor things, then the arbitration committee is less likely to arrive at an appropriate decision. This isn't a legal pleading or a contract negotiation where you might throw a ton of paint on the wall planning to negotiate away a lot of it and hoping that the little bit you care about is going to stick. If any of it has the appearance of a personal grudge or a smear campaign, the arbiters might decide to ignore the lot of it. --B (talk) 18:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are entitled to your own opinion (whatever it is) - but it will not change the clear fact that she was among 5 administrators admonished for poor judgement - she should not have got involved. If you feel there is some error in the case, then like every other editor, you would need to request for an amendment or clarification, but I doubt the arbitrators are going to find any differently on this point. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin

4) SlimVirgin has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator by engaging in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including edit-warring ([24]); threats, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith ([25]).

4.1) SlimVirgin has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator, both in using her administrative tools [26], and by engaging in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including edit-warring ([27]); threats, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith ([28]).

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Open to suggestions for further tweaking. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Repeated" poor judgment with respect to the administrative tools is not currently demonstrated in the evidence. Of your two examples, the WP:V protection warring is inappropriate, but somewhat stale if (and only if) it was an isolated incident. (It happened in July 2007, but if there are other similar incidents, it is obviously an issue.) As for the Category talk:Animal rights activists thing, I'm scratching my head on that one. She moved the discussion of Category talk:Animal rights activists to Category talk:Animal rights movement (list), then deleted the latter. She copied and pasted the content to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Animal rights so the discussion was able to continue. There's an obvious reason for centralizing the discussion on a project page rather than having it potentially on multiple cat talk pages, so I have no problem with her intentions there. Moving/deleting the page was a rather bad idea for GFDL reasons - the better alternative would have been to copy/paste it with an edit summary crediting the authors, then blank the original discussion. But this is more an incorrect use from a technical standpoint than it is an intentional abuse. It's important to differentiate between someone abusing the tools and making an incorrect decision because they don't have an engineering or law degree. --B (talk) 17:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But the finding is about her (SV's) judgement as an administrator (with respect to being subject to a previous remedy, continuing with incivility and most importantly - principle 7) - it may need to be worded better though. I haven't gone into her use of admin tools like for FM, due to the current lack of evidence on it. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JzG

5) JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator, both in using his administrative tools ([29]) and by engaging in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including threats, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith ([30]) ([31]).

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed; I'm assuming he's a party of this case until/unless ArbCom specify otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. On the whole, JzG's actions have been positive. An occasional lapse needs to be balanced against the body of good work, and the high level of challenging situations undertaken. Jehochman ^Talk 23:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a proposal of fact, not of opinion. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:15, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scream louder. That will surely convince us. This little anti-JzG cabal needs to be disbanded. Jehochman ^Talk 01:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is far far far more than an occasional lapse. JzG has consistently misused his admin tools, bitten newbies, failed to assume good faith and been overwhelmingly uncivil. The evidence (which is not complete) that I presented has thus far shown 160 seperate incidents, mostly over the last year or so. Viridae ^Talk 23:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template

6) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

FeloniousMonk desysopped

1) FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked. He may reapply at any time via the usual means or by appeal to the Committee, upon demonstrating that he can follow policy and community practice to a sufficient level that continued remedies will not be necessary.

1.1) FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked indefinitely.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed; prefer 1.1 Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support either The use of admin tools in dispute isn't a good thing to start with, but continuing to do so after being told by arbcom not to? Come on here. Kwsn (Ni!) 18:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ridiculous.--MONGO 23:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Supported by: principles ([32] and [33]/[34]), evidence ([35] and [36]) and findings of fact ([37] and [38]). Your repetition of this statement for the subsequent proposed remedies in this section appears to be deliberately disingenuous; perhaps explaining why you feel the remedy does not match the findings would be more appropriate than simply making a blunt statement. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 15:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't feel strongly about this on a personal level, but I think there's evidence he's misused the administrative tools and has lost the confidence of the community, so I would support this proposal. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 22:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk placed on civility parole

2) FeloniousMonk is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should he make any edits which are judged by an uninvolved administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked from editing for the periods of time specified in the enforcement section.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please, God, no. Civiltity parole may be theoretically appealing, but in practice it. Does. Not. Work. The only thing it accomplishes is turning WP:AE into a giant mudpit. MastCell ^Talk 17:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with Mast sadly. A lot of times it's next to impossible to enforce as well. Kwsn (Ni!) 17:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. CP has never worked, in my experience, and causes incredible amounts of work and drama at WP:AE. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not a fan of civility parole in general. More a fan of folks moderating their own behavior. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What Rocksanddirt said is my exact opinion. Dunno if it'll help, and the whole concept has always seemed kinda odd to me. Wizardman 00:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Workshop#Civility_remedy. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin desysopped

3) SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked. She may reapply via the usual means or by appeal to the Committee, but must demonstrate that she can follow policy and community practice to a sufficient level that continued remedies will not be necessary.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support The evidence provided by Mackan79 and the attacks on Shii were completely uncalled for. Kwsn (Ni!) 18:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ridiculous.--MONGO 02:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Neıl 龱 07:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Saying it's ridiculous and providing no reason for saying such just sounds pointy and makes your opinion sound worse. that's how I'm seeing it anyway. Wizardman 00:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't support this I agree with lots of the evidence against SlimVirgin, and provided more myself. Little of the evidence seems to be about sysop tools. Remedies should be relevant to the principles and findings of fact, which should be related to the evidence. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I think you missed principle 7 in forming that comment - it is one of the most important principles in relation to this case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per SchmuckyTheCat. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral. The issue with SV isn't directly abusing admin tools, but does include a history of pursuing all-out battles against other editors, including false and damaging personal attacks against new and long-term editors. Unlike with JzG or Mongo, these aren't the kinds of insults where you can get a thicker skin, but rather where your entire participation is being systematically undermined, whether in a particular dispute or through larger areas of the project. Of course you could make a case for where getting rid of trolls is necessary, but 1. SV often doesn't make an accurate case, 2. her attacks have often been shown false, and 3. she does it in areas including animal rights and against long-term editors where the case couldn't possibly be made. Until a bizarre recent event, the only two times I had been blocked on Wikipedia were where SV had followed me with friends to an obscure article she had never edited, reverted many times without responding or reading the material, and misrepresented my edits to see me blocked (points 2 and 3 here). SV has never explained or apologized for doing this. Despite this, it was then following a comment having nothing to do with SV (though agreeing with a position she had taken) that she first placed two identical sections on my talk page and an article talk page entitled "Mackan's stalking", and then refused to remove either (point 2 here). It was then shortly after that SV falsely accused me of wikistalking her to New antisemitism -- fully after I had been editing the page for two months, after an initial mediation in which the mediator SlimVirgin chose described my contributions as "sterling," but SV disappeared -- in then attempting to exclude User:G-Dett and myself from a second mediation (point 4 here). SV has not responded to any of this evidence. The point is, these statements have not just been poorly considered, but have in their entirety been part of a sustained pattern of false character attacks that should have no place on Wikipedia; not just because they are damaging, but because they are clearly and demonstrably without basis and false. In this case, SV accuses Cla68 of "wikistalking," "efforts to humiliate," and "prolonged attempts to make the project a toxic place for others," at the same time as complaining that he does not assume her good faith. Whether or not she sees the discrepancy, and without regard to her intent, the fact is that SV has made the project toxic for a number of others, while it's entirely unclear whether an ArbCom endorsement would lead her back to these same approaches. I'm personally neutral about desysopping, because I've come to accept these events over time, I'm likely too close to the situation, and it's possible Wikipedia should stick to neutral types of findings about specific policy violations (an approach I generally prefer); on the other hand, I think there is significant evidence to support the remedy. Mackan79 (talk) 18:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There’s no evidence that SlimVirgin has used her tools in such an inappropriate way to merit a desysopping. I’ve read the evidence page, and there’s a few instances from a long time ago – but no pattern of abuse (far from it in fact) that suggests such a serious remedy is called for. Without commenting on the civility aspect in this particular thread, there are remedies available to deal with that, removing admin status doesn’t do anything. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See pprinciple 7. Also, I didn't base poor use of admin tools as the sole criterion (if at all) for proposing this remedy. But btw, which remedies were you referring to? Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was actually referring to remedy 4 below, but I'm unconvinced that even that's needed - see my comment down there. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised that others are not coming to my conclusion, which I rambled endlessly about here. I firmly believe that SlimVirgin has shown a pattern of misusing administrator tools, as shown by Cla68's and my evidence. I believe that, even if she were wonderfully kind and thoughtful, she has made so many poor decisions with administrator tools that desysopping her would be a net benefit to the project. Her incivility only compounds the problem. I know this sounds excessively harsh to some of you, but I can only tell you what I see, and reading Cla68's evidence section on questionable use of admin tools, I see an administrator who isn't following the rules and expectations of the community. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 22:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shalom, I think people are waiting to see how things develop. I agree in principle with you, but there is no need to rush to judgement. --Dragon695 (talk) 23:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Same here. I want to give her the chance to react to the presented evidence before making a premature judgement call. My particular focus is on how each of the three (FM, SV, JzG) will react to this very smart move by Cla68. Simple acknowledgement and a short, but honest 'sorry' can go a long way. I sure hope the others will follow his example. Until then, I'm postponing my judgement. dorftrottel (talk) 13:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin placed on civility parole

4) SlimVirgin is subject to an editing restriction for six months to one year. Should she make any edits which are judged by an uninvolved administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, she may be blocked from editing for the periods of time specified in the enforcement section.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any blocks made on SlimVirgin will no doubt be swiftly undone by one or another of her colleagues, leading to potential wheel-warring and further dramatics. Something different needs to be put in place to prevent the "uninvolved administrator" being pilloried by a minority. I would suggest some form of system where if a questionable edit is made, an arbitrator determines whether the restriction has been broached. It's not something that has been done before, but a standard approach to editing restrictions will lead to greater work for Arbcom in the longer term due to the strong likelihood of SlimVirgin being unblocked against consensus. Additionally, I would suggest her sysop rights be removed and only restored following a successful RFA - administrators must have the confidence of the community. Neıl 龱 12:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't gone over SlimVirgin diffs yet beyond my comments above, so I'm not endorsing anything here ... but I would point out that since the committee can always reverse itself on an appeal, administrative privileges can ALWAYS be restored by appeal to the committee whether that is spelled out in the remedy or not. --B (talk) 12:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why I excluded "the usual means" but I'll add it in. Re: wheelwarring etc., the usual sort of rules apply - I've spelled them out in the enforcement section. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See above. As far as I can tell, civility parole does not work, but is counterproductive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No basis for this unless of course one combs through 60,000+ edits and finds that one out of every thousand(!) and uses these outrageously few "examples" of incivility to then impose some sort of sanction on someone who (as if anyone is after they deal with so many time wasters and edit sometimes difficult subject material) is not absolutely perfect in every way.--MONGO 23:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mistakes are fine, as long as you (show that you) are willing and able to learn from them, and avoid making them again. There was no explanation, apology, acknowledgement or any other sign/evidence to support the fact that she has or will. Where a consistent pattern of poor judgement emerges, particularly for an editor/admin of 4 or so years, signals the need for a remedy with the same intended effect as civility parole. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Needle in a haystack based remedies are remedies of nothing since no problem exists in a manner which is big enough to warrant any such remedy.--MONGO 14:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Several people (including myself) disagree. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again...I am of the thinking that, no admin is ever expected to be perfect...that Slim, FM and JzG have been admins for a long time, that they are very active admins and that they all oftentimes edit controvery ridden subject matter and deal with some pretty bad policy violators in the process. This is a different situation than Tango, whose percentage of misaplication of tools and position were far greater by a long shot. Before I was desysoped long ago, I had done over 4,000 administrative functions...and my "mistake" or misapplication percentage was extremely low. We can't desysop/sanction people who err in such a low percentage...to do so would be to tell them that they aren't allowed to be human. Furthermore, I simply do not see Slim being anything other than strong in her stance on certain issues. That some might feel she has been incivil is a bit of overkill and hypersensitivity in my opinion.--MONGO 15:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In looking over the evidence presented by Cla68 of Slim's alledged incivilities, many of those examples are pretty regular responses by any editor to certain matters...in fact, I see few real examples at all that would indicate any inciviity issue. These diffs are far less than the one in a thousand (out of her 60,000+ edits) that I alluded to above. We can't sanction anyone for incivility if there are so few examples spread out over such a long time frame and when the contributor has dealt with so many timewasters in so many controversial areas. Based on such miniscule percentages and what are very arguably not very good examples of any gross incivility at all, if we were to sanction SlimVirgin, we might as well sanction almost every editor out there with more than a few hundred edits.--MONGO 16:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If she cannot comply with policy as a result of the number of her edits or what she has to deal with, or cannot handle the self-imposed pressure then it emphasizes the need for her to step down as an administrator. The community and/or the Committee, do not look at things based on percentage - and you should've understood that at the conclusion of your case. And I think you fail to understand the importance placed on the admin role, and the expectations that come with it. A few mistakes are compatible, but this is not merely mistakes. It's a consistent pattern (failing to live up to these expectations). Civility is not optional, as principle 7 emphasizes. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I do know that percentages did not come into play in my case. But we should not and really cannot expect perfection, especially from those that have been involved in so many areas where robust rhetoric is more normative due to the controversial nature of the subject matter. I certaintly do have high expectations for administrators, but I do not expect them to be perfect nor do I feel that extremely active admins should be sanctioned especially when we are basing proposed sanctions on "examples" of incivility that are hardly incivil at all. If we're going to go around cherry picking evidence just to "get someone", then we're heading down the wrong road. So many of the examples cited are simply not very convincing that there is a problem here.--MONGO 16:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like the remedy above, there's little evidence supporting placing SV on an editing restriction. She's been upset when she's perceived people are attacking her, but stating that people are attacking her does not turn it into a personal attack. I find very little incivility coming from her in fact - far less than many other admins on the site. Not sure it's right singling her out for extremely minor infringments, if any at all. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's a bit of stretch; some clear and very harsh personal attacks were made even earlier this year (Feb or March off memory against Markell), and would not be expected of a reasonable administrator (or even an editor), and is just part of a pattern of incivility. Of course this case is limited to the parties, but emphasizes the need for administrators to refrain from engaging in unacceptable conduct - particularly where they are expected to lead by example. Mistakes are ok, but they need to actually be mistakes - you apologize for the damage you've done (if you have or if someone was upset by it), and learn from them. Not just engaging in it again later, knowing that you are expected to lead by example. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm intrigued to what extent you've considered the evidence, Ryan. The incidents I list under personal attacks aren't ones where she could have perceived herself as being attacked, but rather where she was specifically targeting others, often with the help of Crum375.[39] Of course the problem isn't foul language, but again that she goes on personal campaigns against other editors to get her way, along with the several other issues raised. The fact remains Cla68 didn't bring this to ArbCom, and with an RfC it may not have needed a case, but if ArbCom wants to resolve the issue I hope it will consider the more active role it's taking compared to other situations. Mackan79 (talk) 22:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made a radical proposal (scroll down) which I don't seriously expect the Committee to consider but which is nonetheless worthy of passing thought, that SlimVirgin be forbidden to use specific words such as "harassing", "stalking", "toxic", "poison", etc. to describe her interactions with other users. This would quantify both the problem and the possible solution, but it would be instruction creep, so don't actually enforce it. But I think it shows what Cla68 is trying to prove. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 22:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JzG desysopped

5) JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked. He may reapply at any time via the usual means or by appeal to the Committee, upon demonstrating that he can follow policy and community practice to a sufficient level that continued remedies will not be necessary.

5.1) JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked indefinitely.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed; no preference until diffs added to my findings. I'm assuming he's a party of this case until/unless ArbCom specify otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both 5 and 5.1 are ridiculous.--MONGO 02:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is that? Sean William @ 16:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This remedy should be expanded to include all admins who are willing to take on tough cases. Eventually they're bound to irritate someone, and we just can't have that. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then lets desysop people who aren't parties then. The RFC brought up very hard evidence of JzG being abusive in some way or another. Kwsn (Ni!) 17:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why? a/improper use, and b/persistent rudeness inappropriate for the role DGG (talk) 05:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Rudeness, yes. Improper use? Show me diffs- everything I've seen him do was justified. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a perfect example of why principle 7 should probably be principle 1 in this case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um, excuse me? Would you mind elaborating on why you think so? Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 22:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely a bad idea. JzG is a net benefit to the project by a long shot. Rouge admins are always in the spotlight, that doesn't mean they (we?) are out of order. Stifle (talk) 09:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid if an admin repeatedly fails to comply with basic policy, then it does mean there is no net benefit to the project. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not automatically, no. I agree with you in principle, but not as far as JzG is concerned. The RfC started by Cla68 (for whatever personal reasons) was, all in all, the right thing: The bottomline as I see it was Guy was 'officially' asked by many to keep up the great work but try to avoid letting understandable frustration get in the way of it. Beyond that, it gets more and more difficult imho to weigh JzG's occasional suboptimal behaviour and choice of words against his tremendous contributions. Granted, the same goes for Cla68 and other parties, too. dorftrottel (talk) 18:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Guy may have a few problems when it comes to expressing his thoughts, but as far as tool use is concerned, it's normally spot on. He's actually normally right with what he says, the problem comes with how he says it. There are other remedies that could deal with the civility aspect. All in all, it would be a huge loss to the project removing JzGs bit because he does a lot of 'in the trench' work that would be hard to replace. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:00, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, principle 7, the RFC, are among the things that made me come to this remedy. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ryan, it's a dangerous precedent to set that we should tolerate bad behavior due to the value of good behavior; What other methods could we employ to rectify the situation without Guy's losing his adminship? --SSBohio 01:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not good for Wikipedia. Jehochman ^Talk 23:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JzG is one of the least civil of all the administrators I've interacted with since I arrived here in 2005. I think the project is improved by his hard work, even in the face of intransigent opposition; I think the project is damaged by his profane and offensive approach to his fellow volunteers, myself included. We can't easily separate the baby from the bathwater in the case of JzG, and tolerating his bad behavior because of the value of his good behavior is a dangerous standard to employ. His high-handed approach is fundamentally antithetical to his continuing to hold a position of trust and authority here. Looking at my own experience and at this case, without a pervasive change to his behavior, I can't support JzG's retaining his adminship unscathed. --SSBohio 01:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have doubts about desysopping anyone for incivility alone. If ArbCom chooses to desysop JzG, it should be squarely based on his misuse of the administrator tools. Viridae makes some good points in the relevant evidence section, but the alleged wheel war on User:Fairchoice was not a policy violation (see my comment on Talk:/Evidence). I haven't considered all the other evidence to see whether it justifies a desysopping, but what I'm saying is, especially in JzG's case where there may be some extenuating circumstances in his personal life, we should desysop a bad administrator for being a bad administrator, not for using foul language on occasion. That's a tough call to make, and I haven't made up my mind on it. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 22:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JzG placed on civility parole

6) JzG is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should he make any edits which are judged by an uninvolved administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked from editing for the periods of time specified in the enforcement section.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. I'm assuming he's a party of this case until/unless ArbCom specify otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See above. As far as I can tell, civility parole does not work, but is counterproductive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You need to understand the core principles before understanding and commenting on the remainder - you clearly do not, and that makes the reasoning behind your comments much clearer. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reasoning is that the sanction you proposed is not supported by the principles of WP, the evidence presented or the findings of fact that you proposed. I understood everything you wrote and it is clearly overreaching on your part. I would hope my reasoning is clear e nough for you to understand so you can propose findings of fact and sanctions that are in line with the evidence and principles. --DHeyward (talk) 07:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Few people commenting on the RfC agree with THAT little gem. Viridae ^Talk 09:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pot/kettle, Viridae...the instances of your incivility and misapplication of tools and position are, certainly based on percentages, far greater than any other active admin I can think of. It amuses me that you you are here trying to get JzG sanctioned when your atrocious admin history is so obvious.--MONGO 15:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's never been based on percentages, which you would've gathered upon being desysopped by the Committee. 86+ people are of the opinion that JzG's conduct was unacceptable. And please remember that this case is about the parties on the case page (so try to avoid making accusations about the misconduct of non parties) - of the 5 users, Viridae is not one of them (the 5th is Tony btw - but I don't know why he added himself). Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I call a spade a spade when I see one. Hypocrisy can only go so far until it has to be called. We can surely add Viridae's name since he brought forth the now defunct RFAr JzG vendetta case which was merged here.--MONGO 17:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's still preferrable you submitted these type of statements/accusations (and diffs to support them if you want them to be considered seriously) on the evidence page, rather than here. But in the meantime, I will inform the clerks. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's JzG's past that demonstrates the problem with his continued adminship. Therefore, I don't think that a forward-looking civility parole stands to improve the situation. Either we're going to validate Guy's approach to adminship, warts and all, or we're going to repudiate it; Half measures like this will avail us nothing. However, if the desysopping proposal isn't adopted, then this would be my second choice. --SSBohio 01:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Viridae has been added as a party since as the initiator of the separate case he'd have been a party if it were accepted separately rather than merged. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template

7) {text of proposed remedy}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed enforcement

Enforcement by block

1) Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to a year. All blocks are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV#Log of blocks and bans. However, administrators are cautioned not to reverse or modify such actions without the Committee’s explicit approval, unless there is community consensus at the noticeboard to do so. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed - needed so administrators do not wheel-war (block duration per previous case involving admin. and incivility). Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you're aiming for, but this seems unwieldy. The Committee is 15 (or so) people. By the time they get together to "approve" or overturn a block, the block will have expired. The idea that "community consensus" can be achieved on a noticeboard one way or the other to block or unblock editors as controversial as those mentioned here is unrealistic. The practical effect of this enforcement proposal would be that once a sanction was imposed by an individual admin, it would be effectively impossible to review or overturn. This, combined with the natural inconsistency of having different admins reviewing reports of subjective infractions of "civility parole" on WP:AE, is a recipe for disaster. MastCell ^Talk 17:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See talk page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template

2) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposals by User:Jossi

Proposed principles

Wikipedia is a community-generated encyclopedia

1) Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that exists because of the community that creates it and maintains it. Because the community generates the majority of the encyclopedia's content, disagreements between editors occur. The respectful airing and resolution of disagreements is normal and indeed desirable in any such community-led project.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. I can be said better, I am sure, but it is key to this case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Friendly amendment is to replace the second sentence with "The respectful airing and resolution of disagreements is normal and indeed desirable in any such community project." (or similar wording). Raymond Arritt (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amended. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support as well. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by IP:80.65.250.135

Proposed principles

Communications outside of Wikipedia

1) Although Wikipedia is NOT a free speech zone, it also is NOT some kind of regime / cult aimed at repressing free speech outside of the project. Editors are free to discuss their thoughts, feelings and perspectives with members of the press. Being on first name terms with journalists is likewise entirely acceptable. Even ones that criticise Wikipedia.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This isn't perfect and as worded could be wikilawyered or gamed, but consider something like this. It's a rough view on it...

"The primary concerns of Wikipedia related to editors' communications are 1/ the prevention or reduction of gross breach of integrity of the editorial process, and 2/ the prevention or reduction of social friction, or other actions, that might detract editors from congenially collaborating on the objectives of the project, or significantly impede the aims of the project. Constructive criticism and observations on all levels can be an essential part of this, and editors are not to be censured for privately held views expressed reasonably or which do not imapct the project. In exceptional cases some kinds of communication may be incompatible with the degree of cameraderie needed for collaboration. Editors are expected to bear these in mind in their communications that might impact on the project. But otherwise Wikipedia as a project has no involvement in user communication."

I think that's more the point. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 23:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Shouldn't need saying but apparently it does so let's get it over with. 80.65.250.135 (talk) 11:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You missed the point. When you are on friendly terms with a journalist, citing the journalist in support of your own opinions within article space is seriously inappropriate. Guy (Help!) 17:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Using the card of being in good terms with a journalist as leverage in editorial disputes is inappropriate, divisive, and against the principles of this project. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the spirit, but the wording could be better. Kwsn (Ni!) 19:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JzG, Jossi, that doesn't sound too good. I did a search in the evidence so far for "journalist" and "Metz" and did not find anything from either of you that actually establishes the sort of connection you refer to, do you have evidence you are planning to introduce about this? Because if not, about all that cane be said is "that's true, but what's your point?" ++Lar: t/c 03:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is evidence in the evidence page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe take this to the talk for that page, because I looked at the evidence already, as I said, and I don't see where there's any "leverage" ++Lar: t/c 10:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

fwiw, dave souza and FeloniousMonk do mention "journalist" in their evidence. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 12:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

<undent> I've only looked at the Picard affair, in which Cla68 says he was commenting on a post by Moulton. That post responded to a question if "Picard called attention to this travesty to the press", and Moulton describes trying to interest "Brian Bergstein of the Associated Press" in the story. He calls Bergstein a "reporter" and a "journalist". Cla68's post introduced the idea of editors "having their real names in the press". As Moulton is currently indefinitely blocked, the proposed wording would not apply to him, and I'm unaware of anyone else using acquaintance or friendship with reporters in a doubtful way. Bergstein had apparently been invited to take part in a Not The Wikipedia Weekly session by Durova, which is completely in order. So, I'm puzzled about the intention of the proposal here. . . dave souza, talk 22:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal by User:Dragon695

Proposed principle

Guilt by association

1) Mere membership by an editor in some external website that has members who have been involved in violations of policy is not actionable without evidence that the editor has some personal involvement in said violations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Based on the CAMERA lobbying Proposed decision. There is an allegation being made by some that mere participation in sites such as Wikipedia Review makes one responsible for actions taken by other members of said site. May need to be worded better, but this is what crossed my mind while following this case. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. *Dan T.* (talk) 00:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

support - everyone involved seems to run afoul of this sort of idea. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 07:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on what that external website is. This finding is obviously about Wikipedia Review. Ok, that's fine. But if someone were a member of, say, Stormfront, and were to make mildly objectionable comments here that might otherwise be ignored or assumed to have been unfortunately phrased, it's not unreasonable to take those comments in the context of the person's membership. --B (talk) 11:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But even in that case we are only taking the actual offenses against en.wikipedia from the folks who perform them. So, while one may make assumptions about an editor who is a member of a group like stormfront, if the editor behaves themselves here, with the exception of some mild incivility (or even not so mild) it's not an issue with the group membership (even when other members of the group are actively disrupting the project). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but given how upset LaraLove was, I think it better to err on the side of AGF and fight for NPOV on more sound reasoning. Guilt by association is a common ad hominem attack used to discredit the opponents argument, primarily because it is much easier than arguing based on the facts. Emotion always is going to affect our rationality, for better or worse, so the extent to which we can refrain from gaming others' emotions makes for a better collaborative environment. I would note, however, that I thought very highly of a recently outed editor and feel that those who used his personal information to harass his workplace are terribly misguided individuals who need to re-examine their personal ethics. That being said, I do not blame those editors who participate in the forum that was established by the harassers. It is neither appeasement nor is it enabling to have dialogue with one's enemies, its only when you participate in bad behavior that you actually cross the line. --Dragon695 (talk) 16:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected LauraLove -> LaraLove. Hope that's okay. Neıl 龱 22:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Support this. Having an account on Wikipedia Review does not mean you are guilty of the actions of some of the members, any more than if both of you had a MySpace or Facebook account. Neıl 龱 22:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, thank you for fixing that! ^_^ --Dragon695 (talk) 00:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about when administraters go to these offsites and link back to userpage vandalism of our editors and refer to it as "funny"? How about when we have members of this project who have been granted numerous powers go to these offsite forums and participate in hounding editors they have had disagreements with? No doubt we cannot regulate and shouldn't expect to regulate what our contributors do off-wiki, but certainly I think it is a discredit to those contributors if they use these other forums to attack, harass or participate in efforts to identify and join in character assassinations of wikipedia editors.--MONGO 12:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If, and I mean if, you have conclusive evidence that mis-conduct is happening, then the principle does not apply as the second half clearly states. As to your other point, well that is your opinion. I see those violations happening, but not by any respect editors here. Most of the people on that forum just vent about perceived double standards and unfairness. Others enjoy pointing out hypocrisy with a gotcha mentality. And yet others advocate for policy changes to make Wikipedia better. Some want to see us improve while others want to see us destroyed. Some choose to engage in unethical behavior. Others try to engage aggrieved users in an attempt to head off the kind of disruption that happens when ill will festers for too long. It's a mixed bag of nuts, you can't judge it by looking at a single one. So to cast aspersions for mere membership alone is naturally absurd. --Dragon695 (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support, but would broaden the scope and include a link to Wikipedia:NPA#Personal attacks: [...] some types of comments are never acceptable: [...] 'Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream. Pointing out an editor's relevant conflict of interest is not a personal attack.' dorftrottel (talk) 04:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by User:William M. Connolley

Proposed principles

Not a bureaucracy

1) Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

standard William M. Connolley (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It is important to make sure that Wikilawyering and process don't override the overall goal of building an encyclopedia. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dear God, Support this with the very fibre of my being. Contributing to an encyclopaedia should not require one to become an accomplished politician. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 20:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed remedies

JzG commended

1) JzG is commended for his many valuable contributions to the project, both as editor and adminstrator.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

obvious William M. Connolley (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

yep. Guettarda (talk) 21:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed...one of our best admins...one of the finest at seeing BS for what it is...clear headed and well intentioned.--MONGO 22:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Evidence does not support remedy. Chronic inability to work well with others, terribly uncivil, and unable to control his temper. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose on three counts. First on principle, empty remedies are entirely pointless and it is unnecessary to even discuss them. Second, an RfC where consensus seemed to lean toward him having problems equates to someone who someone who shouldn't have a remedy like this. Third, i'm 99% sure ArbCom doesn't touch "commendation" remedies anyway. Wizardman 00:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well they did in the CAMERA decision. But that was a clear-cut case of professionalism at its best. --Dragon695 (talk) 01:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of Course. --DHeyward (talk) 07:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. Per my objections below. Jehochman ^Talk 23:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Recognition of editors is more important than censuring them, since editors do more to help the project than to harm it. Just because we might criticize one or more particular elements doesn't require that we forget about the rest of the editor's body of work. --SSBohio 01:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Give your friend a barnstar instead. dorftrottel (talk) 03:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin commended

2) SlimVirgin is commended for her many valuable contributions to the project, both as editor and administrator.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

obvious William M. Connolley (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

agreed. Guettarda (talk) 21:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Has endured more wikistalking and onwiki (as well as offsite) attacks than almost any other editor and is still around...kudos for standing her ground in the face of relentless harassment.--MONGO 22:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yet... she blatantly attacks other uses, therefore I don't agree with this. Kwsn (Ni!) 22:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Evidence does not support remedy. Clearly engages in harassment of others, while using such claims as a shield from scruitiny of her behavior. Coerced an oversighter into hiding her embarrassing edits and mis-deeds from examination. Has many ownership problems, uses a meatpuppet to gang up on editors she disagrees with, and uses a private mailing list to canvass for various !votes. Also showed a complete lack of sound judgment in the Mantemorland case, attacking anyone who even remotely tried to uncover the egregious sockpuppetry that happened there. No, she should be roundly sanctioned for her bad behavior. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

of course. --DHeyward (talk) 07:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. Give a barnstar if you like. This is not ArbCom's job. Jehochman ^Talk 23:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Recognition of editors is more important than censuring them, since editors do more to help the project than to harm it. Just because we might criticize one or more particular elements doesn't require that we forget about the rest of the editor's body of work. --SSBohio 01:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Give your friend a barnstar instead. dorftrottel (talk) 03:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk commended

2) FeloniousMonk is commended for his many valuable contributions to the project, both as editor and administrator.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

obvious William M. Connolley (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

sounds reasonable to me. Guettarda (talk) 21:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Has done more for the project than 99% of all other editors...we support those that are here for the general good of the project.--MONGO 22:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone with more than 10 edits has done more for the project than 99% of all other editors. That has nothing to do with whether or not his use of the admin tools has been appropriate. This comment goes for the other two as well - why even put stuff like this in here? Even if you don't believe that these users have been abusive in their use of the administrative tools (which, btw, in the case of JzG and SV, I have no dispute with their administrative actions as a whole), the arbiters are highly unlikely to use such a finding. I can't think of a time other than the "Kelly Martin thanked" ruling that such a finding was used and that was controversial. --B (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You guys seem to have ArbCom confused with the people who hand out barnstars... the headlines of this group of proposals remind me of the newspaper headline in one of the Back to the Future movies that switched between "Doc Brown Commended" [for scientific achievements] and "Doc Brown Committed" [to an asylum] depending on how history was changed. *Dan T.* (talk) 23:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Evidence does not support remedy. Has severe chronic civility problems, especially in various encounters with users he disagrees with. Has engaged in wheel warring over blocks. --Dragon695 (talk) 01:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Barnstars all around. For the record, "Doc Brown Invents Time Travel" would have been the finding of fact. I prefer to be on the "Doc Brown Commended" list. --DHeyward (talk) 07:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the people being proposed for commendation here are more like Biff, or perhaps Mr. Strickland, than they are like Doc. *Dan T.* (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, as an empty proposal. Give a barnstar, anyone, if you feel this is warranted. Jehochman ^Talk 23:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Recognition of editors is more important than censuring them, since editors do more to help the project than to harm it. Just because we might criticize one or more particular elements doesn't require that we forget about the rest of the editor's body of work. --SSBohio 01:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Give your friend a barnstar instead. dorftrottel (talk) 03:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by User:SchmuckyTheCat

Comment by others:

Our policy page only describes new user recruitment of puppets; however, the first sentence describes the tandem revert warring and discussion canvassing done by those in association with SlimVirgin extremely well. Arbcom should endorse this second sentence to acknowledge tandem editing by groups of closely aligned editors who organize their behavior. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Too broad. It only includes groups of established editors that edit in a very narrow area. If that were not the case, even this arbcom (and the committee itself would be simply a collection of meatpuppets). Some editors may argue that this is the case but that makes it a totally unworkable definition as it has no practical application. --DHeyward (talk) 08:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's only too broad taken out of the context of this case. See bullet 3 under enforcement for practical application in this case. I do think a further discussion on making a working practical definition and prescription for the project should occur on the talk page of WP:SOCK at a later time. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Take time off to cool off

4) If you find yourself warring with other contributors over deletions, reversions, and so on, why not take some time off from the editing process? (taken from Wikipedia:Ownership of articles)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Wise advice. Some may need others to tell them when. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

When topic bans are a good idea

5) partial bans are sometimes used when a user's disruptive activities are limited to a specific page or subject matter. (taken from Wikipedia:Banning policy)

Comment by Arbitrators:

3) SlimVirgin communicates off-wiki with groups of aligned editors for the purpose of supporting each other in revert wars.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

The number of incidences of Crum375, et al, quickly coming to the aid Of SlimVirgin during her revert wars is too high to be coincidence. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

In revert wars, and other types of wars. This is unhealthy and should be stopped. Whether it rises to the level of meat puppeting is questionable, but for the sake of transparency, use of private mailing lists to formulate strategies should be strongly discouraged. Jehochman ^Talk 23:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Topical POV

4) The subject matter of animal rights seems to stir up the disruptive tactics by SlimVirgin.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Simple acknowledgement. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Please don't wikilawyer

1) The ArbCom stronly encourages SlimVirgin not to belabor the fine points of policy pages in discussions, and not to look for loopholes justifying inappropriate actions.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Nothing negative here, encourage self-help. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

SlimVirgin 1RR

2) For edit warring, SlimVirgin is placed on 1RR.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

A veteran administrator should not be gaming 3RR and using 3 reverts as an entitlement. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Oppose, the comment makes it clear that this is not preventive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Serial tandem edit warring probation

3) Those who edit closely aligned to SlimVirgin are on notice that group edit warring will not be tolerated.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

See enforcement below on practical effect. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Support, even if 2 isn't adopted, this should be. Wizardman 19:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, SlimVirgin and friends should follow the rules that they ask to enforce on everyone else. So, yes, this makes sense. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 23:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Topical bans may be useful, probationary period

4) SlimVirgin is warned that repeated edit warring over the same subject matter may be subject to topical bans. This warning period lasts for one year.

3) Editors who are aware of the serial tandem edit warring probation around SlimVirgin may be blocked for performing reverts with or otherwise acting as a proxy for SlimVirgin. A log of users who have been put on notice will be kept at the bottom of the Final Decision. Crum375, Jayjg, Jossi, and JzG are put on notice with the decision and the closing clerk will copy this restriction to these users talk page.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

A workable mechanism to enforce meatpuppetry claims. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I like this and the one above. Hopefully will prevent revert warring. Kwsn-pub 04:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~I also think MONGO should be included as well.~~ Kwsn-pub 06:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Huh...based on what? I don't edit the same things as any of these folks.--MONGO 12:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know you're quick to defend her, but usually on project space pages and rarely on main. Retracted. Kwsn-pub 18:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not hard to defend someone when they are being constantly sniped at over much to do about nothing and when so much of this sniping has been originating from offsite venues.--MONGO 16:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Way too harsh. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like it serves no purpose other than punishment, and like Raymond said, would only inflame things further. Dr. e X treme 19:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hell even I think this is over the top - but I also think that John is covering all bases. Viridae ^Talk 08:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed enforcement

Template

1) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Template

2) {text of proposed enforcement}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposals by User:Jehochman

Proposed principles

Admin tools are not for struggling with other admins

1) Sysops should avoid reverting the actions of other sysops without prior discussion and consensus.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. This is longstanding practice. Jehochman ^Talk 18:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely...one of the biggest problems we have in creating harmony among admins is due to the unilateral reversal of other admins work without seeking some sort of consensus for such actions beforehand.--MONGO 03:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Though it seems to happen with a fair bit of regularity, and is mostly harmful to the project's collegiality. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 14:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the good of Wikipedia, not personal agendas

2) Sysops tools are not to be used for political feuding or to settle personal scores.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

This assumes bad faith to a certain extent, I most certainly did not act to either perpetuate or settle a score. My actions were entirely good faith, based on my philsophy that users are valuable, new blood paticuarly so and most importantly AGF. Viridae ^Talk 05:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Per common sense. Jehochman ^Talk 18:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly...it can lead to desysopping and should in some cases if it is not corrected.--MONGO 03:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Though it seems to happen with a fair bit of regularity, and is mostly harmful to the project's collegiality. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 14:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the spirit of the proposal, but caution against its application unless these abuses are clear-cut. We need to assume good faith here. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed findings of fact

Bad blood

1) Viridae has frequently used sysops tools to revert sysop actions by User:JzG. These incidents appear to have been intentional, for the purpose of frustrating and baiting JzG.

1.1) Viridae has occasionally used sysops tools to revert sysop actions by User:JzG. These incidents appear to have been intentional, for the purpose of frustrating and baiting JzG. Substantial bad blood exists between Viridae and JzG.

1.2) Viridae has occasionally used sysops tools to revert sysop actions by User:JzG. Even if these occurrences weren't intentional, the pattern of conduct demonstrated questionable judgment, and had the effect of provoking JzG to behave badly. As a result, substantial bad blood exists between Viridae and JzG.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Jehochman ^Talk 18:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence supporting this statement in the evidence for this case at present. However, I'm sure we can all recall two or three occasions where Viridae has reverted JzG's admin actions, and the recommendation was for the two to avoid interacting. Accepting that Viridae has reverted JzG on occasion, the statement has a few problems - firstly, a couple of occasions does not equate to "frequently". Secondly, one would hope all uses of administrative tools were intentional. Thirdly, the end of the second sentence is wholly conjecture. Suggest "Viridae has on occasion used sysop tools to revert sysop actions by User:JzG, despite being advised not to". Neıl 龱 18:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. 1.1 is proposed. Jehochman ^Talk 23:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about "even if these occurrences weren't intentional, the pattern of conduct demonstrated questionable judgment"? PhilKnight (talk) 01:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Better - there's less assumption of bad faith with Phil's suggestion. Neıl 龱 14:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like versions of this that do not indicate bad faith. Viridae seems to do it only when (in viridae's view) JzG is in the wrong. This needs the full set of evidence diffs to back it up also. (I've not looked at the evidence page yet today, it might be there now). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They were not, in any case, for the purpose of annoying JzG. Nor have they been frequent. Indeed the most recent time the speedy deletions were reversed because as they were labelled uncontroversial housekeeping - the owner of the page asking for them back is obviously an uncontroversial reversal. Viridae ^Talk 05:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template

2) {text of proposed finding of fact}

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Viridae deadminned

1) ~~Viridae's sysop access is removed. They may apply for restoration of access through normal channels or by appeal to the committee.~~

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Viridae's long term involvement in these political struggles has been singularly unhelpful. Jehochman ^Talk 18:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Too much. An instruction to leave undoing Guy's actions to others would be preferable. PhilKnight (talk) 01:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's already been tried and ignored. Jehochman ^Talk 18:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. dorftrottel (talk) 01:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, insufficient evidence to support this remedy. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

only makes sense if all admin's in this case are deadmin'd. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm game for that, if it will stop the incessant feuding. Jehochman ^Talk 18:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably too harsh. A warning should be sufficient if the findings of fact are found to support the case for a remedy. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd retract this if Viridae undertakes not to revert any actions by JzG, and promises not to mind JzG's business. I think JzG should also state that he will ignore Viridae as much as possible. Jehochman ^Talk 18:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I only have a problem when JzG steps over the line - which to now has been occuring all too frequently. However since this arbcom case will hopefully stop that line jumping by JzG the obvious correlation is that I will stop caring what he does. In the event (I think its probobly inevitable) that arbcom restricts me from interacting with JzG I will of course honour that. Viridae ^Talk 23:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of people watching JzG. If he steps out of line there is not need for you (or anyone perceived as partisan, whether they actually are or not) to step in. Plenty of uninvolved administrators can stand up to JzG. It will be helpful to your own cause to let more people get involved instead of jumping into the battle yourself. As a measure of goodwill I am striking this proposal. Jehochman ^Talk 01:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty watching, few of them actually do anything. In reality every time a popular admin or editor steps over the line and are rightly critiscised, the rank and file close in around them and those making the critiscism are accused of harrasment. (which is frankly ridiculous - even the RfC was characterised as harassment by some. Viridae ^Talk 05:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't make any sense to me. At most, a 30-day suspension could be considered, but I don't support that either. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 23:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to withdraw this proposal (for this remedy), it should be removed instead of clogging up the page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Viridae Warned

2) Viridae is warned not to involve himself if JzG's business, and not to undo administrative actions without prior discussion and consensus.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed, 2nd chance remedy. Jehochman ^Talk 19:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This seems much more reasonable as a measure, though as admonishments go the wording could be polished ("not to interest himself in JzG's business" could mean any number of things, not to mention that this activity is only a problem as such if he is interfering with JzG's ability to contribute). I'd be inclined to note somewhere in there that whilst being WP:BOLD is an admirable trait, sometimes it can be inappropriate. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 20:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can't force someone to not be interested in a topic. What is needed is for Viridae to not get involved. Change "interest" to "involve". This proposal is what is loosely in place already, but is worth stating. Neıl 龱 07:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oooh, thoughtcrime... you want ArbCom to take it on itself to dictate what somebody may be interested in? How will this be enforced, perhaps with their orbiting mind control satellites? Guess we need tin-foil hats to protect ourselves! *Dan T.* (talk) 11:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Modified per Neil's suggestion. PhilKnight (talk) 11:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by User:Neil

Cla68 commended

1) Cla68 is commended for his many valuable contributions to the project, and in particular his outstanding Featured Article work.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. In light of Connolley's recommendations above - establish that both "sides" have contributed valuably to Wikipedia at times. Note only five Wikipedians(!) have contributed more Featured Articles than Cla68. Neıl 龱 18:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. I like Cla68 and think they deserve to be an admin, but I oppose empty remedies. Jehochman ^Talk 23:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me too - but given the "remedies" commending JzG, SV and FM, for balance, these were necessary; either all of them would be passed, or none of them - I would prefer none of them, but this reduces the risk of one side being commended and the other not. Neıl 龱 10:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Suppport.~~ Good that you brought it up though. dorftrottel (talk) 23:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell, Arbcom is not in the business of commending any editors, whether this is deserved or not. --129.67.162.133 (talk)

True, but this proposal is a justified reaction to these. dorftrottel (talk) 03:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's avoid "remedies" involving commending users, as they're empty and beyond the scope of ArbCom action. If anything along those lines is necessary, perhaps it should be a "Finding of fact" noting some of the valuable contributions made by each of the case's parties, before it gets to the more serious matters of dealing with the misbehaviors and their remedies. *Dan T.* (talk) 03:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Viridae commended

2) Viridae is commended for his many valuable contributions to the project, both as editor and administrator.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Even though Viridae knew he would be criticized and accused by some for doing so, he brought JzG's continued behavior issues to the attention of ArbCom. That is commendable. Cla68 (talk) 00:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Proposed, as above. Neıl 龱 18:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's avoid meaningless remedies. Give Viridae a barnstar if you think they have done good work. Jehochman ^Talk 23:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by 65.54.98.104 (talk)

Where there's smoke there's fire

When an editor or admin of clout is accused of bad behaviour, there may be a well-founded explanation for it. Dismissing these accusers as "trolls" is not constructive to debate and possibly a cop-out.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. 65.54.98.104 (talk) 00:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like this one, ,and very true. Kwsn (Ni!) 04:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle, but would suggest some tweaking to include something to the effect of 'know thyself' and about the importance of occasionally backing down and maybe saying sorry when appropriate. dorftrottel (talk) 05:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

9 times out of 10 the accusation is crying wolf. The one time it is not needs to be taken seriously. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Proposed remedy

1)JzG and SlimVirgin restricted admin functions. They may use their admin abilities in only non-controversial aspects of the project for 1 year.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. I think it is better in general if those who became admins after two years disengage from the more contentious aspects and take a break from it. This could cut down a lot of drama and let in fresher admins deal with the more contentious issues. It could also deflate any notions of cabalishness. 65.54.98.104 (talk) 00:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Define "non-controversial" - this is very vague. I personally dislike restricting admin roles - either we trust them to be an admin or we don't, in which case they should be desysopped. You can't half-trust somebody. Neıl 龱 07:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree sort of. I agree with neil that half admins are not appropriate, but agree with ip that long time admins need to know themselves well enough to take serious breaks from the dhrama. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal by Shalom

1) JzG's adminship is suspended for 30 days.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. I think this is a good compromise based on the precedent at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jeffrey O. Gustafson. [40] I think the parallels between JzG now and Mr. Gustafson then dictate a similar response. Both used uncivil language and made questionable administrative decisions, but both acknowledged there was a problem after 2 RFCs and said they would try to work on it. Looking at the disagreement on the proposal to desysop JzG permanently, I don't think the Community really supports taking this action, but a mere civility warning seems too lenient. That's why we rely on precedent. I think the remedy imposed on Mr. Gustafson was fair, and I think a 30-day suspension of JzG would be equally fair. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 03:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal by Mackan79

Proposed principles

Unusual circumstances

1) Editors in unusual situations who wish to avoid scrutiny of their editing or editing relationships are expected to make reasonable efforts to avoid conflicts with other editors.

1.1) Editors in unusual situations who wish to avoid evaluation of their editing or editing relationships should generally limit themselves to the article namespace.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. It seems there has been a fairly clear problem when editors in this situation are confrontational with others, and have a long history of evaluating editors in ways they don't want to be evaluated. Wikipedia can protect editors who are harassed, but not in my view at the same time as those editors pursue conflicts and confrontations with others. I prefer 1; 1.1 is presented more as a supplement than an alternative, but I think the first gets the main problem. Mackan79 (talk) 13:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed by Random832

Proposed remedies

User:Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The restricted

1) User:Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The is required to seek permission from the arbitration committee before commenting on the case pages of any arbitration request to which he is not a party, and before adding himself as a party to any case if he was not involved in the original dispute.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. I'm just sayin'... --Random832 (contribs) 15:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Analysis of evidence

Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

Supposed attack subpage (was mentioned by SV)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Uh... I read here that keeping tabs on other users was completely acceptable, and one user even specifically mentions that they're used in preparation for arbcom or RfC's. I fail how to see how it's an attack page. Kwsn (Ni!) 00:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My impolitic-original-research thought is that when you see the univers as us v. them, everything discussing your actions is an attack. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 02:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to now state my agreement with Kwsn here. Cla has manipulated a perfectly acceptable means of preparing "evidence", as it were, for a future RfC. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 06:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused. are you saying it is or is not an attack page? and is or is not an acceptable way to prepare Rfc's or arbcomm evidence sections? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also confused - you're saying you agree with Kwsn, but you use the loaded word "manipulating" that seems to imply wrongdoing on Cla68's part - can you clarify this? --Random832 (contribs) 14:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused as well. In my evidence I think I pretty clearly demonstrate that Cla68's use of a draft RfC for JzG prior to going live with the JzG RfC seemed to have good results. If an RfC gets widely endorsed, has a number of alternate views which align or elaborate which also get widely endorsed, and generates statements of intent for positive change by the subject, it's hard to see how one could justify the charge that the draft was an "attack", or was "manipulating" anything. Judge things by their results, not by pejorative labels attached by detractors. But perhaps AD is just misusing the term "manipulating"? ++Lar: t/c 14:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

JzG's evidence

(moved from Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Evidence)The diffs JzG provides in his evidence are annotated with my blue italicised comments, as follows:

[41] apparent Wikistalking - snide comment, but not stalking, not sure spiteful is right
[42] Snide and unhelpful attack, combined with dismissal of the issue of harassment of editors - sarcasm
[43] on the matter of antisocialmedia - not sure why this is even here, seems to be Cla68 helping to build a better article - how is this spiteful?
[44] links to a piece by Cade Metz (who Cla68 knows, Metz having been his outlet in the "secret"! mailing list story) to further his campaign against Jossi (incidentally, the article is characteristically inaccurate, failing to spot that Jossi !voted keep on the criticism fork afd). The irony! Cla689 creating a section on "conflict of interest" while pursuing an apparent conflict of interest... - raising Jossi's COI on Prem Rawat (something Arbcom itself subsequently became aware of, and Jossi himself agreed to refrain from editing Prem Rawat and related articles - how is this evidence of Cla68 being spiteful?
[45] champions Piperdown - Piperdown was unblocked - how is arguing for a user to be unblocked being spiteful, particularly considering the user WAS unblocked?
[46], [47] More Wikistalking - first diff is Cla68 (correctly) removing weasel words, second is thanbking someone for showing patience (how are these evidence of Cla68 being spiteful?)
[48] part of a brief edit war to try to drag Jayjg into a contentious arbitration case, reverted by people including clerks and arbitrators numerous times. - a trawl of the history of that time - [49], shows no such reversions by Cla68.
[50] a dig at Jimbo and an indication that he is on first-name terms with Metz, a long-standing sniper at Wikipedia - asking Jimbo a question? Calling someone by their first name? How is this spiteful?
[51] a sockpuppet promotes Cla68's false allegations published in the Register - nothing to to with Cla68 - irrelevant
[52] trolling re Swalwell, Alberta, a part of the SV = LM meme - agree here, Cla68's comment was not needed
[53], once again citing Metz. - what? Providing a reference is spiteful?

To summarise, JzG's "evidence" appears to be a collation of smears. Not one of the diffs JzG gives to back up his description of Cla68 as "spiteful" give much weight to that claim, when viewed either in isolation or as a group. At worst, there are perhaps two examples of sarcasm within the 11 bulletpoints JzG uses. Neıl 龱 08:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

I'm very disappointed in the seeming misuse of diffs in the evidence section (this group specifically, and others more generally). A little more good faith reading of folks comments goes a long way towards not thinking they are attacking you. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68

Momentarily, I can't see any sufficient evidence presented to suggest that a finding or remedy be made against this party, mainly due to the lack of policy violations. If there is any new evidence added concerning this party's conduct, I'd appreciate it if a note/link is left here.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I've seen that might be worth a finding is that cla sometimes has a hard time letting go of an issue. But it's pretty weak. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When I initially commented on the case at Cla68's RFC (rather cheekily as Academy Leader here) it seemed to me then, and still does now, that Cla initiated the RFC process to try to understand, from a community perspective, how his engagement in the Weiss article affected the outcome of his RFA. It seemed to me then that Cla was in the right regarding the various problems pertaining to that subject, and that he was essentially browbeaten for taking a policy-compliant approach to resolving the issues with the article. However, and this fact continually strikes me, he could have easily initiated this drive in a more sensitive manner relying on his credibility as an editor entirely without referencing or linking to WR or ASM. The day after he "violated 3rr on his own RFA," as Denny Colt put it, [54] to link to ASM, BADSITES was inspired, [55] which various editors adamantly tried to cram down WP's collective throat as policy over the next year.

Despite everything that happened since then that would seem to evidence the contrary, especially the Mantanmoreland ArbCom case, Cla's persistence in the use of RFC and community sanctioned processes to resolve conflicts indicates to me that he still has tremendous faith in the system. I don't believe he is or ever was acting out of spite or desire for revenge in pursuing above board DR processes. The fact that he pursues DR in areas where he himself has no prior involvement, frequently in opposition to other prominent members of the community, indicates to me that his faith in Wikipedia is in the system and its consensus-based processes rather than with its biggest would-be proponents. His interests, as far as I can tell, apart from article writing, are in seeing policy evenly applied everywhere, even and especially among those with tens of thousands of edits who make and enforce policy on a regular basis. DR is the only internal system by which any editor can be made accountable, and no editor can be exempt. As Cla earnestly pursues DR processes to develop consensus on and resolve community conflicts, he has my full support. Amerique^dialectics 20:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meh...evidence now submitted indicates that this is no longer the case.--MONGO 15:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which evidence would that be? --NE2 16:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All of this evidence demonstrating a long pattern of wikistalking, harassment and other offenses.--MONGO 17:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This just shows how people like yourself continually play the "harassment card" to try to get the upper hand in disputes. *Dan T.* (talk) 17:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence of Cla68 wikistalking Slim to articles he had never before had any interest in and are far removed from his usual editing venues is obvious. If you choose to think the diffs are inaccurate that is certainly up to you.--MONGO 17:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~I'll have a look. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)~~[reply]

I'm going to have to postpone this - I don't expect to be on (much anyway) for 8 days or so. But it'll give an opportunity for any other evidence to be submitted concerning the newly added parties. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One thing is very clear to me: Wherever Cla68 may have gone overboard, he is not alone, nor is he the one who went overboard the first, the farthest, or the most frequent. I think what happened in his RfA is rightfully still upsetting him. Like many others before and after him, he never received anything resembling an apology, for the shameful political tactics with which his RfA was shot down vengeance-style, with massive assumption of bad faith with him and clear-as-daylight-canvassing that still stinks to the high heavens. And before someone inevitably replays the 'so long ago, he should have let it go', let me say that time all by itself never rights any wrongs. To say that Cla's intention is to harm the project through harassment or disruption is simply impudent. dorftrottel (talk) 19:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Administrative Activities Question

In various users evidence sections, there are descriptions of what appear to be inappropriate uses of admin tools by FM and SV. Does anyone have an idea what percentage of thier administrative tool use are these kinds of problematic actions? It looks like FM has made 47 administrator actions since March 17, 2007 (just over a year), and that sv has made 50 administrator actions since February 20, 2008 (three months).

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

by Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the percentage that has any bearing. Administrators are expected to abide by policy. Occasional mistakes are ok, but when it becomes a pattern, then that's where the line is drawn (and remedies are considered). Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In my section on FM, I identified 12 of his 40 total logged actions since May 1, 2007 (30%) that I believed to be errant. It's important to keep several things in mind, though. 10 or so of his logged actions were protecting user pages of IP addresses of Jinxmchue (talk · contribs), a chronically annoying, though not banned, user. The two were basically in a tif where Jinxmchue decided to quit using his account and just edit via whatever dynamic IP address his ISP assigned him. FM decided that this needed to be documented on the user pages of these IP address (for example, see User:67.135.49.147) and when Jinxmchue objected, FM protected the pages. While this isn't thrilling conduct, it isn't really abusive either, but the point is, 10 of FM's 40 logged actions were protecting these IP user pages. So the 12 actions I identified were really closer to half of his total incidents of using the admin tools. Sheer numbers really don't mean anything. The second thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between misuse and abuse. Someone may misuse the tools without intending to be abusive. For example, indef blocking an IP (other than an open proxy) is a misuse because IPs change over time. That isn't done to be abusive. There was no malice or anything like that - it's just a bad idea and in one case, while preparing evidence, I found a dynamic or shared IP that he had indeffed and I removed the block because it was clearly someone else trying to use it and the person he was trying to block was long gone from it. This is not intentional abuse - it's just incorrect use - a training issue and a solvable problem. I contend that 8 of the admin actions I documented from FM constituted abuse of the admin tools and 4 were incorrect, though not abusive, use. --B (talk) 17:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See my assessment, and examine all these assertions with care. .. dave souza, talk 18:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, wrt Ferrylodge, I meant "previous" to this arbcom request, not that the arbitration committee had predicted that FM would in the future block Ferrylodge and that such a block would be inappropriate. WRT to Rosalind Picard and James Tour, you are right that I missed that user and I have updated my presentation from "not a single" to "a single". Thank you for pointing him out, but it changes nothing I said. S-protecting an article to stop a user who is neither blocked nor banned at the time of the s-protection from editing an article is inappropriate. If FM had known that this was the reincarnation of a banned user, blocking him would have been fine, but s-protecting the article to stop someone from editing an article while they would be otherwise to edit (not blocked) is probably not a correct use of the tools. WRT to the IP indefblocks, I don't question the block, just the indefinite portion of it. IPs can change. That's not an abuse - it's an incorrect use, as I stated above. As for Schlafly, we will have to agree to disagree. I contend that he should have allowed an uninvolved administrator to handle it. --B (talk) 18:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for the responses! This is exactly the sort of evaluation i hoped to provoke. I fully agree that the percentage is not really the issue, but the patterns. However it is often easier to find the patterns when you start from the whole picture. (imo) --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Analysis of Evidence of Threats, presented by User:Filll, et al.

I'm primarily responding to these allegations by Filll which have been repeated by other parties in this case, hopefully to dispel the myth that Cla68 made any threats against anyone - since this seems to be being repeated endlessly in the hope that it will become true. Verifiability, not Wikiality or mud slinging, should be our guiding principle here.

Cla68 has gone to the press at least twice in the last 6 months about Wikipedia issues. The first time was in connection with the Durova situation, and the second time was to discourage people from donating funds to the Wikimedia Foundation (further details available on request).
— User:Filll, here.

I would request further details of this to verify. Preferably with diffs. Unsupported accusations aren't helpful, especially since "evidence on demand" means the statement becomes impossible to verify.

The current disturbing situation arose from a longtime campaign conducted by a community-banned/indefinitely blocked editor, User: Moulton, on Wikipedia Review. Cla68 responded by making what appeared to be a threat to out members of the ID Wikiproject to the press.
— User:Filll, here.

It appears that in the actual posting, here, Moulton is commenting on the fact that the referenced editors are close to being outed. In this context it is sufficient to note, as Cla68 has done, that his post was in reference to the preceding posts so as to clear this allegation of making threats. Everything which follows from this point is moot, since no threat was made and Cla68 has posted his regret at what appear to be poorly worded remarks. It appears that the only way this could be mistaken is if it were taken out of context by people determined to ignore WP:AGF.

It is telling that this sort of misinterpretation (which seems to be based on confirmation bias) is extended to other statements made:

"It's unfortunate that group [not defined] of editors' behavior related to Intelligent Design articles has become such a problem that uninvolved editors and admins like me [emphasis added] have noticed the problem and gotten involved to varying degrees. I hope that the editors in question are willing and able to correct their behavior on their own. Cla68 (talk) 00:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)"
— User:Filll, here, emphasis his.

If we were assuming good faith, perhaps the more obvious interpretation of this statement would have been parsed as such: "that (uninvolved editors and admins) like me".

Outing Wikipedians in the press can have a number of negative consequences. It can make it harder to recruit more editors, and make it harder to retain the editors we have. It goes against several Wikipedia policies. Even the threat to do so is a bannable offense: [56]. It can lead to harassment, embarassment, stalking, damage to professional and private lives of editors, identity theft, death threats and worse. Clearly, this sort of threat in an attempt to blackmail other editors should not be allowed, and should not be encouraged. If this sort of behavior is allowed to continue, more will adopt it and the threats will escalate.
— User:Filll, here.

Whilst the principles of this statement are valid, the application of it to this case appears to be little more than scaremongering. The rest of Filll's statement appears to consist of much the same scaremongering, appealing to fear in order to push for sanctions based on nothing more than a (seemingly either intentional or rooted in confirmation bias) misinterpretation of statements. Further, adding emphasis to statements in order to distort meaning is disingenuous in the extreme and I suggest that said statements as primary evidence should be examined on their own merit without commentary.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

I hope this helps. 129.67.162.133 (talk) 21:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68 clearly made threats. Even when he later backpedaled and tried to blame it on Moulton (who actually was only describing his unsuccessful attempts to interest a journalist in this matter), Cla68 continued to say that, unless we did what he wanted, he would be forced to take action. In other words, he continued to make the threats. More importantly, they were not threats devoid of conditions - they were threats intended to coerce behaviour. I, for one, took them very seriously.

In addition, of course, Cla68 has only apologised for not choosing his words more carefully. In other words, an apology for getting caught. It isn't a rejection of the tactics underlying his threat...which, of course, he would have a hard time distancing himself from, since he has already used those tactics in the past.

It's pretty funny really, to see the casual dismissal of Filll's analysis as "scaremongering" from someone who is unwilling to log in. Guettarda (talk) 21:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I don't have a user account. I'm an exopedian, merely stepping in to defend a fellow article creator (as much as it pains me to involve myself in wikipolitics). I would also look up the meaning of the word scaremongering, if I were you, since you apparently don't know what it means.

You're claiming that he clearly made threats. This is demonstrably wrong, since there appears to be room for interpretation here, and thus the statement and its interpretation is not clear in either the sense of non-obfuscated nor of obviously true. Again, I'd exhort you to Assume Good Faith, an excellent guideline which, if it had been followed, would have rendered this entire argument moot. If you are so adamant that you are correct, perhaps you should attempt to prove conclusively that there is no room for error. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 22:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well stated in my view by the anon. Due to recent interaction with Filll I also find the analysis particularly questionable; see for instance here and here, both fairly over-the-top threats, not to mention a habit of threatening all types of editors with "userification" and/or blocking.[57] [58] [59] [60] [61] Filll has apologized for the first of these, but I think a serious credibility problem with his interpretation of Cla's comments remains. Mackan79 (talk) 00:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so the only post by Cla68 being referred to is [62], right? (I see that it was edited, but only right after being posted; note to self: "joined" date is not "posted" date!) Going back a page in the thread, I see one previous post by Cla68 reporting on the state of the article, some speculation by others about whether Rosalind Picard has contacted the press, and related discussion about whether it would end up there. Cla68's second post to the thread was the disputed one, in which he comments, in a slightly mocking tone, that the "other side" probably isn't aware of this. I don't see any implication that Cla68 would be the one to contact the press, and don't see why the post caused such an explosion. Do any of the other posters that talked about the press edit Wikipedia? If not, that would explain why Cla68 was targeted, but not why the response was so disproportionate. --NE2 10:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly, Filll has expressed disdain for our policy of WP:AGF on numerous occasions, so of course he isn't going to assume good faith. The point the anon user makes is quite apt. The only way for this to be taken as a threat is to take it out of context. Clearly this is one of those instances where the irony mark would be appropriate, if it existed. If you read the entire thread, he is being rhetorical in his analysis of the other comments. He is clearly wondering if the walled garden of the ID project is even aware that their pointy behavior is souring the subject to the point that they or their colleagues might go to the press. That's it, Cla68's statement can not possibly be construed as a threat if we applied Occam's Razor to the entire context of the discussion. No more than someone saying: "if you continue to smoke 10 packs of cigarettes a day, you'll get cancer" or "if you continue to lie about it you'll get caught one day." It is an observation, laced with irony, not a subtle attempt at threatening others. --Dragon695 (talk) 17:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Filll's contribution lacks evidence for many of his statements, particularly the most destructive claims. To be treated with a pinch of salt. Neıl 龱 19:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ashton1983's evidence

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

First, this seems to be mostly a duplicate of some of Felonious Monk's evidence, as they clearly used the same diffs and concluded that Cla68 somehow enjoyed it. I'll assume good faith and take it as a coincidence, but the fact that the same evidence is presented twice should not give it undue weight. Second, I think it is rather dangerous to psychoanalyze emotional states based off of one or two word edit summaries. It could be that Cla68 is enjoying it or it could be that he is truly shocked. It is important to note that some people genuinely feel like SV had a blind eye turned to her inappropriate behavior for many years. Being flabbergasted at the extent to which one finds that this happened is not a crime itself. Indeed, it is shocking because if it were any other editor, they would have been indef blocked by now. Arbcom should not try to divine what Cla68 was feeling when he discovered the evidence. --Dragon695 (talk) 18:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm certain ArbCom will not try to; and will not give undue weight to repeat-evidence here. But other than that, it's a good point to raise in analysis of evidence. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In his more recent addition, Ashton picks two points in which Cla68 referred to SV as having lied, and attempts to show that they are not actually lies and therefore that Cla68 has failed to assume good faith. At least for this arbitration I'd first like to suggest we drop these appeals to AGF, at the same time as SV's whole case is based on accusing Cla68 of "prolonged attempts to make the project a toxic place for others." This is not to denigrate the guideline or the concept which I think are extremely important, but to say at least in an RfC or ArbCom case where the whole point is to address editor behavior, that ABF as an infraction doesn't apply in the same manner. In terms of whether they are lies or not, I tend to agree these two are not lies, though the latter about living in Utah appears to be a careless comment. If the idea is that evidence of SV breaching community trust is lacking, however, I disagree, and I'd invite Ashton to address some of the other points in Cla68's evidence or my own. If he would explain how he came to take an interest in the case just over a month after joining Wikipedia that might also help.[63] Mackan79 (talk) 02:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Tony Sidaway

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

As I read TS he seems to be saying that Wikipedia needs to fight fire with fire, that incidental damage is to be expected, and that anything which gets in the way of this needs to be quashed. With respect for Tony’s greater experience to mine, this is in my view exactly what has gotten Wikipedia into some trouble in the last couple of years. Wikipedia is an academic undertaking, remains extremely appreciated and well-liked by the public, and in my view does much more to foster that good will (and indeed to undermine critics) by acting as a charity or a university would than as an entrenched political campaign. This also means, among other things, that we need a reasonable environment in which to edit, which incidentally seems to be all that Cla68 and some others of us are seeking. Mackan79 (talk) 15:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His "evidence" is not worthy of much notice, given that it fails to include any actual evidence at all, just his own unsupported opinions. About all he's doing is spreading the meme to the effect that any ideas he dislikes can be discredited by claiming that they originated on the hated BADSITES. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I think I agree with both Mackan and Dan here. Everyone involved in this has done a huge amount more for the project than I have, but seem to have lost sight of the forest for the trees. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tony's evidence is not evidence at all; it is opinion and conjecture. Neıl 龱 10:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In communications with Tony about this, he indicated that (in my interpretation of his words) he feels it's evidence, because it's evidence of his opinion, regardless of the lack of any factual material (diffs, quotes and the like). I'm not sure I agree with that view. I think it's OK to let some opinion leak in to one's evidentiary statements, within reason, but that pure opinion doesn't belong in the evidence section, regardless of whose opinion it is. I'd say it was better placed in the workshop's principles or findings sections. I would urge ArbCom to disregard this "evidence" (quotes placed for pejorative effect) entirely. ++Lar: t/c 13:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is his opinion important enough to be evidence? I can only see that being true if he's a party, which he isn't...but he just added himself for some reason. I guess now we can use the fact that he contributes non-evidence as evidence as evidence of his failure to provide evidence... --NE2 14:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His adding himself as a party strikes me as spurious, a clerk should address that matter... ++Lar: t/c 15:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the kind of evidence that doesn't need diffs...seems to me to be simply a summary of what should be well known as facts.--MONGO 14:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Except that they are not facts in the sense of being universally agreed to "ground truths" (to turn a phrase I heard somewhere :) ), they are in dispute. ++Lar: t/c 15:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So I could just add "[attack redacted to protect the sensitivities of the thin-skinned]" to the evidence section, and I wouldn't have to back this up with anything? *Dan T.* (talk) 16:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bait not taken...--MONGO 17:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But point not addressed. Everything brought up before Arbcom as evidence needs to be supported in some way with diffs and/or links. If something is unsupported then it should be disregarded. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of Wikipedia:Verifiability, a core principle of the encyclopaedia as a whole. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 15:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"A man may go through life, systematically keeping out of view all that might cause a change in his opinions, and if he only succeeds... I do not see what can be said against his doing so. It would be an egotistical impertinence to object that his procedure is irrational, for that only amounts to saying that his method of settling belief is not ours. He does not propose to himself to be rational, and, indeed, will often talk with scorn of man's weak and illusive reason. So let him think as he pleases." -Charles Peirce, On the Fixation of Belief. Amerique^dialectics 15:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

that we need a reasonable environment in which to edit, which incidentally seems to be all that Cla68 and some others of us are seeking So to create a "reasonable environment" he attacks others? Does that sound reasonable and rational to you? Does it sound like it would create a reasonable environment in which to edit?--Filll (talk | wpc) 19:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your position may be improved if you tried to sound reasonable yourself. These articles may be helpful: argument, evidence. Amerique^dialectics 19:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Filll, while Cla's exact methods are suboptimal, that doesn't mean he's wrong with everything. Right? If and when one of our top FA writers has serious concerns about other editors, we should listen carefully. Moreover, many of the allegations he makes and (more or less successfully) backs up with diffs have been brought up numerous times before and are shared by a fair amount of decent people (and of course also by many disgruntled trolls, vandals, harassers, etcpp - which is still not a reason to dismiss his input wholesale). dorftrottel (talk) 21:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

The factual parts of my evidence are not in dispute. Cla68 has indeed relied upon, and sometimes included within his edits to Wikipedia articles, the most unreliable and abhorrent material from websites specifically set up to attack his fellow Wikipedians, and he has consistently represented these appalling attacks as worthy of consideration.

The fact that the opinions expressed in the evidence are my opinions is also undisputed. It is all therefore evidence of a factual nature, though some of it is facts about the opinion of a longtime observer of these attacks on Wikipedians by other Wikipedians and by trolls whose opinions those Wikipedians have chosen to amplify on Wikipedia. The only dispute can therefore be over the emphasis placed in my statement on certain facts that I feel others have either neglected or glossed over entirely.

By the way I am not saying that Wikipedia must "fight fire with fire". There is nothing in my evidence to support any call for extreme action. My advice would be to take certain similar recent cases involving long-respected contributors as a model.

Indeed I believe it is enough that the Committee make it plain that abhorrent behavior towards other Wikipedians, however good one's contributions are in other areas, is not permissible. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 18:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, there are no factual parts of your evidence - you have simply dumped a (hyperbolic and untrue) opinion piece onto the evidence page and stated "I believe this, so it's fact". No diffs/links = not evidence. Neıl 龱 18:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you're denying that Cla68 has imported into Wikipedia unsuitable material from sites specifically set up to attack Wikipedians, I'm surprised. This is not a matter for dispute and certainly not a matter on which the Committee is likely to entertain serious doubts. -Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 18:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have evidence of this, other than saying it is so? Your word is not sufficient proof. Neıl 龱 19:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If it is not a matter of dispute (which is obviously in doubt here, since there are dissenting editors questioning your opinion) then perhaps you would be so kind as to provide specific diffs and outline exactly how those diffs support your "evidence"? --217.44.80.4 (talk) 19:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I deny that "Cla68 has imported into Wikipedia unsuitable material from sites specifically set up to attack Wikipedians" as I'm not aware of any "sites specifically set up to attack Wikipedians", or that Cla68 has imported any "unsuitable material" from anywhere. Please be more specific in your evidence. Despite your alleging it is not a matter for dispute, it certainly is (a matter for dispute) and if it's not a matter that the committee entertains doubts about, then we've elected the wrong committee. ++Lar: t/c 21:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So is there according evidence or not? Has it been presented to the ArbCom? dorftrottel (talk) 22:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there is any (I don't know if there is), it has not been presented yet. Neıl 龱 09:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Just because attack sites with scathing parodies of Wikipedians are horrible does not mean we should ignore potential evidence of wrong doing that they have collected nor should any coincidentally similar evidence be dismissed. You can't rob a store and then complain that if a video that caught you in the act was made by someone with a stolen camcorder, it should not be used at the trial. Let the evidence stand on its own merit and if it can be proven, then where it came from is irrelevant. --Dragon695 (talk) 16:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that what Tony is referring to is the Mantanmoreland case, and he's jumping to the erroneous conclusion that, because ~~the fix was in~~the outcome of the case in the end did not support the accusations, there was therefore never any legitimacy to the accusations and they are therefore entirely "unsuitable material". --Random832 (contribs) 15:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 1,568: / Line 1,568: @@
 ::*If there is any (I don't know if there is), it has not been presented yet. [[User:Neil|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl</u>]] [[User_talk:Neil|<u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B></u>]] 09:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 :::*Tony, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Just because attack sites with scathing parodies of Wikipedians are horrible does not mean we should ignore potential evidence of wrong doing that they have collected nor should any coincidentally similar evidence be dismissed. You can't rob a store and then complain that if a video that caught you in the act was made by someone with a stolen camcorder, it should not be used at the trial. Let the evidence stand on its own merit and if it can be proven, then where it came from is irrelevant. --[[User:Dragon695|Dragon695]] ([[User talk:Dragon695|talk]]) 16:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
-:I think that what Tony is referring to is the Mantanmoreland case, and he's jumping to the erroneous conclusion that, because the fix was in in the end, there was therefore never any legitimacy to the accusations and they are therefore entirely "unsuitable material". --[[User talk:Random832|Random832]] ([[special:contributions/Random832|contribs]]) 15:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
+:I think that what Tony is referring to is the Mantanmoreland case, and he's jumping to the erroneous conclusion that, because <s>the fix was in</s>the outcome of the case in the end did not support the accusations, there was therefore never any legitimacy to the accusations and they are therefore entirely "unsuitable material". --[[User talk:Random832|Random832]] ([[special:contributions/Random832|contribs]]) 15:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 ===Template===