Talk:Nazi Germany/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

12 year reich or 1000 year reich

(german: "Tausendjähriges Reich")

Regarding this article's following sentence:

Because of its relatively short lifespan, historians sometimes call it the "Twelve-Year Reich."

While the phrase "Twelve-Year Reich" is often used in a joking way, I don't believe any credible historian uses that term professionally. I think this is a case where one of this article's authors has let personal opinions skew his/her writing. Unless references can be quoted showing established historians using that phrase, I believe the sentence should be removed on the grounds that it's innacurrate. Spookfish 01:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the joke is not in using "12 year reich", but in using the phrase "1000 year reich". The powers that were used the phrase "1000 year reich" a lot, and the joke was on them when it turned out that it came crashing down after twelve years, luckily. So referring to the "1000 year reich" in conjunction with speaking of that period of time is used as a half-joking reference in exposing the lie that is behind the 1000-year claim.

focus

This article should focus more on the 1930’s and Nazi domestic policy during the WWII. --GeneralPatton 21:48, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I strongly agree Sam [Spade] 22:15, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I suggest starting with the chapters on the end of the Weinmar Republic and Gleichschaltung. The previous form of the article was plainly wrong, it focused 80% on world war II military history, and the rest where just links, but the links ought to be integrated with the text and chapters expanded with “see alsos” linking to articles that further elaborate on the topics. --GeneralPatton 23:05, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This article should primarily deal with the political history of the Nazi regime, the German military history of WWII being dealt on a page of its own. Most of the Gleichschaltung article should also be moved here.--GeneralPatton 08:53, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

And here's something for understanding the economy, another important chapter left out.

[1] [2] --GeneralPatton 12:00, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

civilian deaths

2004-01-09: "This persecution reached a peak in the last years of the regime, in which some 6 million Jews, *10 million Slavs*, and sundry others, were systematically killed. This genocide is referred to as the Holocaust..."

The article about the holocaust talks about "3.5–6 million Slavic civilians". Quite a difference. Someone with more expertise should try to clarify this...

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There where far more than 10 million civilian casualties in the former Soviet Union (Slavs), the number is actually around 20 million, that died from starvation, disease, and maltreatment.

Combine that with about 10 million deaths in the Red Army, and you get to the staggering number of about 30 million dead, the reason why the WW2 is still quite remembered there.

--GeneralPatton 05:31, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

there is however no full documented proof that " 6 milion Jews" were killed. It is purely a propganda tool to shock the public & breed sympathy for the eternal whinging wandering Jew/Zionist movement, and it has been successful for 60 years.

Now that is holocaust denial. Contrast the above w what I said down @ Talk:Nazi_Germany#National_Socialism ;) Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 08:39, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

linguistics

Notes by LA2: While holocaust as a phenomenon is certainly associated with Nazi Germany, this particular term is not a German word. On the other hand, there are other German non-Nazi words that are used in English language, and it could be worth while to explain them. Should this be done from a separate page? I'm thinking of angst (anxiety, feeling of despair) and schadenfreude (the joy over the failure of others). Then we have classes of loan words from other languages like ombudsman (a proxy official, from Swedish), and smorgasbord (an all-you-can-eat buffet of mostly cold dishes, also from Swedish).

By SoniC: I don't know if it makes sense to try and tell where all those different words came from. I mean, half of all English words are derived from Latin, French, even from Chinese (ketchup, for example) or Indian (shampoo, AFAIK). This is a science in and by itself. Maybe someone with far to much time on their hands can do such a page in the Linguistics section, but if you start something like that, you will end up having a complete dictionnary.

I propose to use this particular page for terms that are really related to Nazi Germany, i.e. terms you will find when reading reports, literature or whatever about the Third Reich. These can be German terms now also used in English or other terms used in the Nazi context.

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But Wikipedia is not a dictionary. It isn't a style guide, it isn't a collection of foreign borrowings, etc., etc. It is an encyclopedia. Of course, very many words borrowed from foreign languages are also names of topics about which enyclopedias might well want to have articles--e.g., schadenfreude might include not just a definition of the term but what some psychologists have to say about it (I don't know what psychologists do have to say about it, if anything, though). --LMS

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2002-04-29: For the record, that page exists: List of German expressions in common English. I have added a link. I have also taken out

• U-Boot -- (Unterseeboot) the infamous German submarines (Note that this word has been used since before World War I to the present day to refer to all submarines -- it has no unique connection to the Nazis. It is also unclear why German submarines are more "infamous" than the American submarines that were far more successful -- ie, deadly)

-- djmutex

england declared war? eastern armies?

Note two things: In the East there are mentioned Red army and Polish army, which, because i am Pole, suits me well, but there wer also other armies in the east, although much much smaller. Second, i thought that it was England who declared war on Germany, not the opposite? user:szopen

Currently it sounds like Germany suddenly attacked a range of countries including France and Britain. In reality Germany attacked only Poland, which then led to war declarations by Britain and France towards Germany (and interestingly enough NOT towards the Soviet Union though it also violated the Polish independence guarantee). Especially in case of Britain it is very doubtful that Hitler had ever originally planed to attack it, so the Battle of Britain was most probably triggered by the British war declaration itself. One can also argue that The French and British war declaration was the most important step to move a regionally confined conflict towards a world war.

user:217.255.124.138, 09:36, 2004 Dec 28

It's self-evident that non-involvement, non-commitment, or indirect support in the form of appeasement from Chamberlain would have been to prefer for the Third Reich. That doesn't change the facts that their policy aimed at a radical revision of the Versailles peace; a policy that already at the time of the declarations of War had put an end to the independence of Austria and Czechoslovakia, and through the Molotow-Ribbentrop Pact was about to make all of the six remaining border states either German or Soviet acquisitions. The power balance shifting thusly could not be expected to be passively noted by the Western Powers. Ultimately, it threatened them. --Ruhrjung 08:53, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

english spelling

Note to whomever corrected the spelling of "organisation" to "organization", both British and American spellings are acceptable on Wikipedia. Gratutitous edits to change from one to the other are unnecessary, unless the spelling changes in an annoying manner within the one article --Robert Merkel

wwII history

This should be an important article, but it has ended up being a brief history of World War 2, much of it not even about German involvement (e.g. North Africa). Shouldn't the pre-war years get at least as much space? DJ Clayworth 14:16, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Sure why not write it up? I just saw Germany declared war on the United Kingdom and thought I must correct it aspart of a consise history of the War without missing anything important. It ended up being longer than I expected and I know it unbalances the article. With regard to North Africa, I thought it important to explain what the Germans were doing there in the first place. It is important because North Africa and Greece ended up taking resources and time from the invasion of the USSR and also allowed for the Invasion of Sicily and Italy. BTW I think there should be a merge between this article and Third Reich Mintguy 14:26, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Love to, but it will have to wait behind the dozens of other things I'd like to do. Maybe sometime. DJ Clayworth 14:31, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Panzer tanks

Panzer is just the German work for tank (armour) and is still used today. I don't think it is particularly associated with Nazis. DJ Clayworth 14:23, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I believe this is correct (just short for Panzerkampfwagen, armored fighting-vehicle). In accounts of fighting on the Eastern Front I seem to remember German soldiers referring to ,,russische Panzers" (Russian tanks). Critic9328 23:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Book of Odin

Removed Book of Odin reference and Norway Adam and Eve. Did Google search on "Book of Odin" AND "Nazi" and got nothing. Need references.Ark30inf 04:53, 10 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Pre-WWII history

Dear ohh dear. This article needs some serious work on pre-WWII. I've just remove a couple of recently contributed paragraphs that contained some classic ill-informed nonsense that Duffy would have blown his top at. I'm going to put this in Bad Jokes etc.. e.g.

Hitler "reannexxed" Austria in ?1938? in a military action he called "Liberstruam"(Living Room in german).Although it was essentially without any fatalities, it was in clear violation of the Versialle Treaty and Austrian right to self determination. England and the U.S.A. decided to negotiate with and finally appease Hitler through a English diplomat named Neville Chamberland.

Unfortunately I don't have time to sort this out myself right now.Mintguy 09:16, 10 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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I do not totally understand what you were writing here, but I guess that you mean Chamberlain and I can tell you that "Liberstruam" is definitely no German word and I do not know what it means, at least not living room.

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Wilhelm Grimm

Wilhelm Grimm must be a mistake of some sort, as he died well before the NSDAP even existed. Kent Wang 11:05, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OLD TALK From Third Reich

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"Third empire"?? Shouldn't we delete this? Führer, dictator, Reichskanzler yes, but Emperor? --KF 23:40 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

"Third Reich" is the usual way of referring to it in English, and yes, Reich does mean empire in one sense, but the article isn't referring to Hitler as an emperor. The word has some implications about referring to "the state", anyway -- even the communists called the East German Railways the Deutsche Reichsbahn. -- Arwel 23:47 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at. Empire is Kaiserreich, not just any Reich. --KF 23:56 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

In German, Reich has more connotations than a territory being ruled by an Emperor. It has a strong mythological background and is really not translatable to English; the Reich page therefore correctly mentions that the term is used in the German Lord's prayer (and throughout the Bible also) in a very transcendental meaning. See my new entry on Holy Roman Empire also. It is exactly this fuzzy warm feeling that the Nazis exploited with the creation of the expression Drittes Reich. -- djmutex 2003-04-30

What are you both talking about here? I've never doubted any of it (except maybe the statement that it was the Nazis who created the term Third Reich). All I'm wondering about is why anyone would want to translate Third Reich with "third empire". I'd just delete the latter -- ersatzlos. --KF 00:12 May 1, 2003 (UTC)

Done. :-) I wasn't quite aware that we agreed. djmutex 2003-05-01

I've heard "Reich" translated as "realm" in English, this word has connotations of medieval Britain to me but perhaps it's more accurate than "empire".--Critic9328 23:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Is the German Eagle useful ? Ericd 18:32, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think it would be useful with a caption indicating that it was an attempt to symbolize unification of Germany and Nazi Party. Just sitting there by itself it looks a little propaganda-ish. Ark30inf 18:38, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This is propaganda-ish. Have a look at Wolfram's contributions. Ericd 18:43, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yuk. I see what you mean. I think the image can be saved if it is put in the proper context of a propagandistic image by associated text. Its an attempt to merge traditional German concepts together with Nazi Party concepts and to associate the two, which is a concept touched on briefly in the article. It might also be moved farther down in the text to de-emphasize it if this is done.Ark30inf 18:52, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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Sources made available after the collapse of the Soviet Union reveals the Kremlin strategy to provoke Europe's capitalist powers into war against each other to facilitate Communist revolutions by their war-ravaged proletarians.

I'd like to see sources for this statement and exactly how the Soviet Union provoked (or planned to provoke) the western powers into going into war. If nothing is forthcoming I'll remove it. Mintguy (T) 10:15, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Term "Third Reich"

There was no "Third Reich" de jure, the Weimar Republic's constitution from 1919 was valid until end of war 1945 (Well, mostly.) But the official name of the state was always "Deutsches Reich". "Third Reich" was invented by author Arthur Moeller van der Bruck in his book "Das Dritte Reich" in 1923. However, the term was officially banned since 1939.

Third paragraph should make clear "Third Reich" was just a nickname.

Some references:

Name of Reich: Wilhelm I of Germany: ...the North German Confederation (1867-1871) was transformed into the German Empire ("Deutsches Reich", 1871-1945)...

Reich: ...Later, Deutsches Reich was the official name of Germany from 1871 to 1945...

About van der Bruck, there are many references: Encyclopædia britannica: German cultural critic whose book Das Dritte Reich (1923; “The Third Empire,” or “Reich”) provided Nazi Germany with its dramatic name. [3], [4], [5]

Term "Das Dritte Reich" was banned "Im Juli1939 verbot das Propagandaministerium die weitere Verwendung des Begriffes "Drittes Reich" [6] also [7]

Mikko Paananen 17:23, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Third Reich translated as Third Empire

Although the German word Reich definitely can be translated as empire, in some contexts that is, in this case it is outright wrong. Hitler's Thousand Years Reich may well have become an empire, if the Anglo-Saxons had continued their passivity, but it seems as Churchill and Pearl Harbor put an end to that prospect.

In this context, the word Reich is rather the antonym of republic in Weimar Republic. User:Sam Spade's revert of my correction on this point seems highly surprising, unless it reveals an innsufficient grasp of the German language — although it may of course be me, who is lacking in my English.

The removal, at the same time, [8] of the qualification [...] the National Socialist German Workers' Party, [...] that however by most Europeans is held to have been Socialist by name only. May be accidental, or not, but the issue is sufficiently explained at the Socialism page.

--Ruhrjung 15:21, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

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The word "Reich" is not a big thing in German.

The German names for France, UK and Austria are Frankreich, Vereinigtes Königreich and Österreich.

I think it can be translated into Empire (Roman Empire = Römisches Reich) but it does not necessarily mean a country with an Emperor as a head of state. But definitely it is not the antonym of republic. "Weimar Republic" is just a political term. The official name of the Weimar Republic was "Deutsches Reich", like the predecessing monarchy. It´s rather to be translated simply with country or state. All in all, in "Third Reich" the "Third" is more fascist propaganda than the "Reich".

It is a quite old word, probably by the same root like the Indian "raj".

frapowierski

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See Talk:Nazi Germany#Socialist in name only. The socialism in name only bit is unacceptable. As far as the empire distinction, I find it questionable, but will trust your judgement if you insist, and no one else steps in. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Fun that you trust me! I think you can do that quite confidentially also with respect to how Europeans view the degree of Socialism within NSDAP. Please note that I did word it carefully, considering both Talk:Nazi Germany#Socialist in name only and Nazism#Nazism and socialism. --Ruhrjung 19:56, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

I have read that academics view 'reich' usage nearly approximates that of realm in english. However I think it is a specific german word without an exact equivalent - user:max rspct 01.39 2nd Jan 2004 (UTC)

Socialist in name only

This is POV. The reader can decide for themselves what they want to define as socialism, its a subjective term with a flexable definition. The Nazi's called themselves socialist, and thats a counter opinion, enough to give it a neutral stance in this article. Please keep your opinions in thye talk pages, and out of the article name space. Sam [Spade] 02:50, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, no, the Nazi most definitely didn't call themselves Socialists but National Socialists, which they considered to be quite something else than Communism and Social Democracy (which is what generally is understood by the term Socialism). The idea that the Nazis were or are somehow Socialist is a misunderstanding. There must be limits to Wikipedia's reluctance to differentiate truths and facts from misconceptions and propaganda. --Johan Magnus 10:55, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Your 1/2 right (almost exactly ;)

No, no, the Nazi most definitely didn't call themselves Socialists but National Socialists, which they considered to be quite something else than Communism and Social Democracy

That is correct.

(which is what generally is understood by the term Socialism). The idea that the Nazis were or are somehow Socialist is a misunderstanding. There must be limits to Wikipedia's reluctance to differentiate truths and facts from misconceptions and propaganda.

That is not correct. The limits are based on facts, cite's, and verifiable expert sources, not editorial POV. Sam [Spade] 15:49, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There has been rather extensive debates on other talk pages on this issue. I wonder if maybe Sam Spade was a participant also of this debates, and if he could sumarize those?
--Ruhrjung 18:58, 2004 Nov 6 (UTC)

My summary is that commies are rude and sassy, and more interested in hearing their own rhetoric and high-fiving one another than intellegibly discussing the particulars. Oh, and communists/socialists think "communism" or "socialism" never happened, and yet we should keep trying, no matter how many people die (apparently all the dying and human rights abuses are due to capitalists). Anarchism somehow gets tied in as well, I'm not sure how or why, but maybe thats the cause of the police states communists are so fond of? As far as proof of Nazi's being socialist, I can provide a bit of that (I happen to like proof, myself). Chip chip cheerio, Sam [Spade] 20:35, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

BTW, I'm fine w pointing out that Hitler opposed Social democracy, which is completely different from totalitarianism. Sam [Spade] 20:37, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hitler didn't just oppose social democracy, he opposed socialism and supported capitalism. Sam, we've had this debate before and you always lose only to pop up a few months later in another article pushing the same ignorant POV. In future, please try to learn about the topic you are writing about. AndyL 22:16, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

complete nonsense, Hitler did not support capitalism, he merely used it. Hitler was an opportunist pur-sang. Whatever means could help him to power would do. And people with money could help him faster, however do remember that industrialists who did not want to support him had their property seized or were intimidated by his brownshirts. I would compare it to a shakedown operation (like Jesse Jackson does, go to businesses and threaten retaliation or boycott or in Hitler's case seizure of property if they did not pay up). Also, Hitler was no socialist either, he was someone who wanted power for one thing only, to expand Germany at others expense. --Marcel1975 11:04:19, 2005-08-27 (UTC)

The debate over whether National Socialism was really "socialism" is much ado about nothing. Basically, "socialism" has moved into the public domain (much like "shredded wheat[9]" for example) and can be used by anyone to describe their product. The Socialist International doesn't hold a copyright on it, so it isn't a proprietary name that is strictly controlled in its use. The important fact is that Nazism was a form of collectivism (see my other posts) and is different from other collectivist ideologies only in superficial ways. Paul 21:51, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"The important fact is that Nazism was a form of collectivism (see my other posts) and is different from other collectivist ideologies only in superficial ways"

Except that Nazism WASN'T a form of collectivism. Not in the least. See AG Farben, the Fricks and other industrialists who made a killing (literally and figuratively)AndyL 16:51, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Except that it was, see Talk:Nazi_Germany#National_Labour_Law_of_January_20.2C_1934. Cheers, Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 17:06, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

facts

Dr. Goebbels said, "Germany is a republican Fuhrer-state". He also said, "Besides, I pay homage to the French Revolution for all the possiblities fo life and development that it brought the people. In that sense one could say, if you like, that I am a democrat."

Nazism is called the "Brown Creed". (brown refering to the brownshirt SA, the working class)

Hitler said, the Third Reich was a "people's republic"; (eine volkische Republik).

...which demonstrates a lack of understanding for the concept of völkisch.
--Ruhrjung 08:39, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Hitler said, "I am not only the conqueror but also the executor of Marxism--of that part that is essential and justified, stripped of its Jewish Talmudic dogma.". He also said, "This revolution of ours is the exact counterpart of the French Revolution."

And Dr. Goebbels was known for a) telling the truth? b) being a propagandist? AndyL 16:51, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

False dichotomy, Goebbels is known for producing Nazi ideology, and is arguably the best source of such. Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 17:12, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not a "false dichotomy" at all. Goebbels is also "known" for being a professional liar, thus any claims he makes, particularly public cliams about the goals of Nazism, are unreliable. AndyL 17:14, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Care to cite that POV? Not that it matters, this whole Goebbels track is a red herring. Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 18:39, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Goebbels "producing" Nazi-ideology — give us a break — what about Adolf Hitler and Alfred Rosenberg? In our days' language usage, Goebbels was a spin doctor rather than an ideologue.
--Ruhrjung 08:53, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

National Labour Law of January 20, 1934

[10] "National Labour Law of January 20, 1934, the state would exert direct influence and control over all business employing more than twenty persons. In other words, both employers and employees were put under the control of the government." Large public works projects, 100% employment, these sorts of things are socialist. Sam [Spade] 20:57, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• I think the key thing to note is that the Nazis did not agree with the philosophy or political theory of Marx, or the German Democratic Socialist Workers Party. Defining "socialist" as "large public works projects" is not a useful definition (what country is NOT socialist, then?) and is not what people generally mean by socialist. I think a proper handling of this question would be to say that the name is a deliberate plagiarism of the Marxist party in Germany, and that the Nazis differed very greatly in their philosophy and political theory than the Marxists, even though many of their ultimate political outcomes look very similar to, say, the Leninists (anti-democratic state, state control of many resources of production, single-party rule, etc.). They are only "socialist" in the vaguest, most general sense, and it seems quite clear, Sam, that the main reason you are insisting on not providing any sort of distinction between them and Marxist versions of socialism is that you are fond of lumping "left-wing" socialism in the same category as fascism. Whether that is a valid judgment or not, it certainly would be more useful for the reader to note that there are some distinctions, and I think perhaps to give a little history of the name which indicates that it is not identical to Marxist socialism (which is what is generally meant by "socialism" in my familiarity with the term, not just a vague sense of state control, a usage only used by pundits), and is more in tune with the spirit of Wikipedia NPOV policies. --Fastfission 15:51, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Scroll up and see

"BTW, I'm fine w pointing out that Hitler opposed Social democracy, which is completely different from totalitarianism."

Alot of the rest of what you are saying is either wrong, or not relevant, but I would be ok with you presenting information on how Marxism or Social democracy were repugnant to Nazi's. Sam [Spade] 16:03, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. Your seemingly refusal to address his points is interesting, though largely irrelevant - We should at least put that some people believe that Hitler was not a socialist, perhaps without stating the view as fact until this dispute is sorted out? Comrade Tassadar 21:47, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You can add that many contemporary socialists don't think he's a socialist w/o my objecting, anything more than that and you'll need a cite. As far as whatever else Fastfission alluded to, discuss it in my talk page or something, its off topic here. I'd say my summary was sufficient . [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 23:25, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Corporativism is not the same as Socialism.
--Ruhrjung 08:35, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

National Socialism

Nowhere at the beginning of the article does it mention that "National Socialism" wasn't really socialism ala Soviet Union or Utopian Communism, but something COMPLETLY different. It leaves the reader with the impression that Hitler was a socialist (or, Hitler was a communist!) when, in truth, he was not. Perhaps it should be clarified? Comrade Tassadar 22:49, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps not. See Talk:Nazi_Germany#facts. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 22:46, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nazis not socialist? Well read this [11], sounds pretty socialist to me. GeneralPatton 16:37, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What's the deal with posting a link to a Holocaust revisionism website? This is pretty inappropriate and in awful taste, much less casting a bit of doubt on your ability to be NPOV, in my opinion. --Fastfission 20:50, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just wanted to illustrate that Nazis DID in fact view themselves as socialists. GeneralPatton 03:27, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Historical revisionism must be a part of any neutral discussion of past events. Your comments make it clear that NPOV has no place in your conception of a "tasteful" encyclopedia article. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]]

I'm hoping you've just misinterpretted what has been said here and are not actually arguing that "evidence" from a Holocaust denial website to support the notion that the Nazis were "socialist" makes sense. The first thing a historian does is consult the reputation/veracity of their sources, you know. Why don't you spend a few minutes thinking about whether or not you agree with me on this one before replying with another smartass comment. --Fastfission 00:04, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I believe in compiling information from a variety of sources, AND consulting the veracity of the sources. What I don't do is buy into the "everybody of POV X is evil, so we'll label them as revisionist and ignore them". Also, who better than a nazi to give info on Nazi economics? Have you seen my facts I've already compiled? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 09:46, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did you look at the site in question? The main page of it says "Welcome to the World's largest website for Historical Revisionism!" The point about sources stands no matter what: if the source isn't trustworthy, find another. If it is so clear that the Nazis thought of themselves as socialist then it should be present in mainstream historical literature. There is no grand conspiracy here, Spade, except in the eyes of those with the worst of intentions. You are showing yourself to be a grade-A jackass. And yes, I've seen the "facts", i.e. that Hitler called himself Volkisch, as if that is a significant fact in this debate (if you'd like to get into the ramifications of National Socialist reactionary modernism, we could, but what we're really talking here are layman's understandings of typical economic terms). If those are your ideas of compelling historical facts, I'm going to have to say that, as a historian, I'm not impressed. --Fastfission 00:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Some extreme left-wing writers have worked tirelessly since 1945 to detach National Socialism from Socialism and instead, with ulterior political motives, attach it compleatley to the right-wing. These same left-wingers ignored Stalin’s Gulags and Mao’s death camps until the late 1970’s; again, because of politics. However, many historians have put the record straight and managed to show that National Socialism is in fact a sub branch of Totalitarian Socialism just like Stalinism or Maoism is. GeneralPatton 15:08, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, Degrelle, who always stayed a Nazi said here “It is a fact that the newly rich classes emerging from the industrial revolution had enormously abused their privileges and it was for this reason that the National Socialists were socialists.” So it shows Nazis did in fact view themselves as socialists. In fact, Nazis were populist socialists in their domestic politics, at least when it came to ethnic Germans. GeneralPatton 03:26, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But the Nazis opposed socialism. How can you be a socialist if you are against socialism?

They opposed communism, communism is not the same as socialism. Its just a sub branch. In the same way Soviet communists opposed the Western European Social Democrats, and the communist Chinese denounced the Soviet communists.GeneralPatton 16:04, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, they opposed any form of workers control of the economy whether democratic socialism, social democracy or Communism, they opposed trade union rights and all facets of socialism. They just misappropriated the term as a means of appealing to the working class but, in practice, the Nazis were entirely for capitalism and were bankrolled by industrialists and major capitalists as a bulwark against socialism. AndyL 22:33, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Historical revisionism must be a part of any neutral discussion of past events. Your comments make it clear that NPOV has no place in your conception of a "tasteful" encyclopedia article. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]]"

Why do you keep using the euphemism "historical revisionism" instead of holocaust denial? And no, a neutral discussion would reject holocaust denial out of hand. Do you also believe that those who believe the universe revolves around the earth must be party of any neutral discussion on astronomy?AndyL 22:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Maybe because I'm not using a euphemism, and am actually talking about Historical revisionism? Holocaust denial would suggest denial of the holocaust, not an interpretation of nazi political practices as Totalitarian socialism. Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 17:00, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm just going to jump right into this...

...and stick my nose where it may not belong. The following are my thoughts, which I offer with the hope that they can clear up the debate over "socialism."

1) Socialism generally defines a hodgepodge of ideologies that can seem to be radically different from one another, however 2) All forms of socialism are based on a collectivist ideology. 3) These ideologies can favor differing groups, such as "workers," a "master race," or whatever the stated purpose is.

Economic planning, abrogation of private property, conscription, and quite a few other things are clear examples of subjecting the individual to the state or the "greater good." Whatever this state claims to advocate, and whose "greater good" is in question, are only cosmetic differences. Aside from the damage done by association with National Socialism, there is no reason why this brand of socialism should be set apart from any other.

Paul 16:52, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I thank you for your wise and agreeable statements. While I understand the motivation of Socialists who wish to distance themselves from unpopular variations of their ideology, the category is incredibly broad and inclusive. IMO Nazism was significant among other totalitarian socialisms in its economic successes (until its impatience for territorial expansion undid it), and relative religious tolerance (compared to Communist states). Mass killings seem to be pretty standard in authoritarian states, and don't strike me as being so unique to Nazism as popular culture makes them out to be. People are often horrible, and I sympathize with Germans who feel they have been particularly maligned, while human rights abuses came long before Nazism, and continue to this day. In conclusion, we can learn from their mistakes without soiling the "good name" of socialism, and most importantly, while maintaining perspective. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 17:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, under Mao and Stalin, millions of people were either killed in Gulags/Camps off or deliberately starved into death. Even in smaller states like Cambodia, the Marxist Khmer Rouge deliberately killed a few million people, same thing went on in North Korea, communist Vietnam,... Just like the Jews, all these other people were also killed because they were called the "enemies of the people/revolution/ideology/proletariat,...". GeneralPatton 18:38, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Great points Paul, it’s a really precise assessment. GeneralPatton 18:34, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

An interesting assesment, though one I must disagree with. First off, you at first define "socialist" as a "collectivist ideololgy" favouring possibly different groups. However if we use this definition, every nation in the world is socialist for with nationalism comes a sort of collectivism that favours the people within the nation. You could go into any nation and find favoured groups, and thus we find this is a too broad definition of socialism. Next, you go on to define socialism as the state subjegating the individual. Again, with this definition many many nations in the world are socialist including the US. Your specific examples of "economic planning, abrogation of private property, conscription" have too occured in many nations around the world including the United States especially during wartime. I think you have the correct idea, but the specifics I believe are flawed. With this definition in hand, I could classify anyone and anything as socialist. Comrade Tassadar 19:27, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Comrade:

Addressing the points you mentioned: 1) I agree 2) I agree 3) I almost agree.

Paul 05:24, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Socialist in name only 2

please read the talk page. This has been discussed ad infinitum. Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 15:40, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and is perfectly clear and correct with the current wording. Leaving that out, and Wikipedia propagates one political view that is neither mainstream nor considered correct. As far as I understand, this is exactly what Wikipedia should not do. --Johan Magnus 17:04, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Failing to provide the reader w uncited nonsense does a disservice to no one, other than perhaps yourself. Cite your sources, buck-o.Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 17:16, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Any history book, any memoires, this is not in any way a contested issue — on this side of the Atlantic, at least. It's possible that you, if you search carefully, can find some dissertations covering even this axiomatic issue.
--Ruhrjung 08:22, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

You know, Nazis are commonly refered as socialists by many of people I know (and at least equal people refers to them as rightist, but that's not important). I am not sure if "most europeans" will correctly reflect the reality. Szopen 08:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You traitor! ;-)) If the ignorance is harboured already on the other side of Oder, how can we expect the Americans to learn?
--Ruhrjung 08:24, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

Communist East Germany

The article currently states:

West Germany recovered by the 1960s, but East was not so lucky; it had to endure communist oppression until 1990.

The phrase "endure communist oppression" is rather editorial. Anyone got a good idea for replacing it with something more neutral and in keeping with an encyclopedia? MatthewWilcox 15:28, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

They felt they were being oppressed. Is that not enough? Joseph (Talk) 16:02, 2004 Nov 18 (UTC)

No. If a person in the US feels as if they are being oppressed, does that give them permission to go around Wikipedia editing articles that make the US look like an evil totalitarian state? Wikipedia should strive to be neutral, and while it should offer viewpoints, it shouldn't push them. Comrade Tassadar 22:51, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So according to you DDR communists were not oppressive? FBI is as oppressive as Stasi was? GeneralPatton 16:39, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nice try, but no. My personal belief is that the DDR was an oppressive dictatorship. However, labelling a nation as an "oppressive dictatorship" doesn't quite fit in with the Wikipedia policy of NPOV, now does it? If we allow it for DDR, we must allow it for all nations (including the US), and I'm sure that many here would have difficulties with that. It is, in my opinion, NPOV to put that SOME think that the East was oppressive (which is true, without taking sides on the issue). Comrade Tassadar 02:33, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well according to that reasoning, even Nazi Germany wasn't oppressive. So go ahead, change the article according to that. In fact DDR was based on Soviet style oppression that was as bad or even worse than the one in Nazi Germany. Millions died in gulags and because of Stalinist oppression. In Nazi German it was more of an ethnic thing, although also fueled by ideology. GeneralPatton 16:09, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, *I* don't dispute this either, however I just think we should refrain from emotionally charged comments presented as fact in an encyclopedia of any sort. Even "It is commonly accepted that X nation is totalitarian" is much better than "X nation is an evil dictatorship!", wouldn't you agree? Comrade Tassadar 18:02, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Most Political Scientists think JFK is a Jelly Donut...

Care to cite that? I'm done reverting for today, but tomorrow, tomorrow, is only... a d-a-y a-w-a-y... Sam Spade (talk · contribs) 18:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Evil Web Vandal

A web vandal apparently got a hold of my password and posted some pretty nasty messages then proceeded to attack my user page. Looks like they were blocked. Anyone know how to change a Wikipedia password? In any event, the article was restored. -Husnock 05:47, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reichstag Fire

Present discription should be rewritten. There's a distinct lack of evidence as too whether or not the Nazi's lit it. And there's no consensus among the historical community whether or not they're guilty of this crime or not. And I'm talking about serious Historians, not the idiot Holocaust deniers.

--203.17.44.84 08:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

This is a common Wikipedia problem. A briefer text here must somehow summarize the more throughout and more npov-ish text of a more specific article.

I admit my relative ignorance, but I do so far interpret the text in the article specifically on the Reichstag fire to indicate Goering's involvement to be most likely.

I hope you can find a shorter wording!

--Johan Magnus 10:13, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I just had a read of the Reichstag fire page and it doesn't seem to pass judgement (it refers to Halder implicating Goering, but also to a historian who argued against it).

How does, "It is unclear whether the Nazi party was involved in the fire, but they undoubtedly took advantage of it"?

--210.8.216.82 01:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

That has too much of a revisionist sound to it. I would suggest something like: It's commonly held... or Goering is reported to have... The Reichstag fire article then does the closer examination.

--Ruhrjung 18:43, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

a prominent general mentioned (I forgot who it was) that Goering had boasted to him that he had personally set fire to the Reichstag. --Marcel1975 11:08:05, 2005-08-27 (UTC)

I read somewhere (I don't remember, but it was reputable) that recent evidence indicates that it was in fact a mildly retarded Dutch Communist named van der Lubbe who set the fire, bragging about something he didn't do sounds like Goering but it's indisputable that the Nazis took advantage of it so ultimately I don't know if it's really relevant who started it.--Critic9328 23:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Other Prominent persons in Nazi Germany

User:Punkmorten, why did you remove Schindler and Wallenberg from the list?--AI 14:32, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

New section

"Nazi" is partisan, juvenile and pejorative. 'National Socialist Germany' or 'Germany under Hitler' is much more appropriate. -- unsigned comment by 157.157.79.109 (talk · contribs)

"Nazi" is the standard term in English, for the party and the regime and for persons adhering to them. It is not "juvenile", and it is not considered a colloquialism or an abbreviation, it is simply the standard word used in English and far more commonly used than "National Socialist". The Wikipedia:Use common names policy applies. It is not pejorative except in the sense that, well, the Nazis don't exactly have a very good reputation. -- Curps 01:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

But then again, neither do the communists, and we don't call them 'commies' in the wiki. -- unsigned comment by User:Andrelvis

"Commie" is a slang, colloquial term in English, and a pejorative term. "Nazi" is simply the standard English word, nothing more and nothing less. Please consult any standard English dictionary. And as I mentioned to you on your talk page, "Nazist" is not an English word... you won't find it in the dictionary. Perhaps English is not your mother tongue? This may be a cause of misunderstanding. -- Curps 02:18, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

sparta and nazi germany article

i created this article when i was in year 12 for an assignment, it cannot be inside the encyclopedia as it is not biased nor make no conclusions, but it is a very good look at how each seem simila -- User:Whatsup_will

Your message seems to have gotten truncated. Please note Wikipedia:No original research. If you have an essay or original theory based on your own research, unfortunately an encyclopedia isn't the place for it (see the link to understand why). -- Curps 01:19, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

"I am not a NAZI"

why does it say this at the bottom of the page -- unsigned comment by User:81.231.226.58

Anyone can edit, and sometimes they do. It's not there anymore. -- Curps 01:19, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

The Dormancy change in Procedure etc

Boringly , I say WP needs to get to the bottom of the above title, namely the vaunted(in WP) "changes of procedure" that allowed not only the loss of civil liberties (and I do not refer to the omission of the habeas corpus protectin left off by Hindenburg at the Fire Act ).That was an omission,. I mean the decree/procedure change that is so far un-sourced , which procedure enabled the arrest of Deputies . I point always to article two of the Enabling Act and the contradiction between that and such "procedura" change. Vital , Str1977, so please please find it for the WP . EffK 11:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

See Also [[12]] relevant discussion of dubious from Centre Party Germany .

Some small clarity is provided by str1977 , saying that frick seems to have persuaded a 'council of reichstag elders ?) to allow for procedural amendment of the Reichstag , perhaps on the 23 march , a concoction to overcome a Socialist boycott of the sitting and Enabling Act vote. the dormancy is still separtae and undated, and seems quite illegal viz section 2 Eact and the Empire Constitution .

Industrialists

I note that Consolidation of Power contains nil reference to the above . Indeed this subject is hard to find anywher in the german history pages, very hard . Str1977 rejects this below as off topic to Enabling Act (consequences) so I bring it here where it should form a small part of an 'Industrialists' section.This is brought in by John Toland as immediate consequence of Hitler's rigged success .The subject of the magnates bank-rolling Hitler prior to the rigged success is completely absent here , and so is their link to his supposed economic miracle, concerning which this sheds light.

The Reichstag success also brought into the open a number of industrialists who had supported Hitler , and unlimited credit was extended to the regime in the form of Mefo bills ( Metall-Forschungsgesellschaft A.G.) which could be drawn by Government contractors , that acted as a form of promissary notes and which allowed Hitler to re-arm on a large scale.

With a link to Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates. Why this blind-spot ? Why are we behaving as if the Nuremburg Trials , and their American lessor trials concerning Trading with The Enemy , never happened?

EffK 11:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

National Socialism

"Socialism is an ideology with the core belief that a society should exist in which popular collectives control the means of power, and therefore the means of production. In application, however, the de facto meaning of socialism has changed with time. Although it is a politically-loaded term, it remains strongly-related to the establishment of an organized working class; created through either revolution or by social evolution, with the purpose of building a classless society. Socialism had its origins in the ideals of the Enlightenment, during the Industrial Age/Age of Industrialization, amid yearnings for a more egalitarian society. It has also increasingly become concentrated on social reforms within modern democracies. This concept and the term Socialist may refer to a group of ideologies, an economic system, or a state that exists or has existed." The definition of Socialism given by the Wikipedia article of what Socialism is. If we accept this to be true then National Socialism is NOT socialism. Nowhere in Nazism is there a belief society should exist with popular collectives controlling the means of power/production. Even if we use the De-Facto meaning of Socialism, Nazi Germany never had any intention of producing a class-less society (according to Wikipedia's articles on Nazism and National Socialism) or an egalitarian society.--GinAndTonic 01:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Description of tide turning a little too simplistic

The article states: "By February 1943 the Soviets had defeated the Nazis at Stalingrad and began the push westward, winning the tank battle at Kursk-Orel in July."

This makes it sound like the Germans were essentially defeated for good at Stalingrad, and that all the Soviets did after that was advance westwards. Kursk was a massive offensive launched by the Germans, which nevertheless did end badly for them.

Also why do people always have to use the word "Nazis"? The Axis forces on the Eastern Front included hundreds of thousands of troops from Italy, Romania, and Hungary each, as well as co-belligerent Finland and tens of thousands of Waffen-SS volunteers from all over Europe, as well as the Spanish Division Azul and a quarter million Soviet "volunteers" (Cossacks, Tsarists, POWs, etc.). --Critic9328 23:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that we should not refer to "Nazi" defeats. We should refer to German or Axis defeats. john k 00:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Not a "Nazi war flag"

I believe the flag depicted as the "Nazi war flag" was simply the flag of the German navy during World War II, perhaps it is a misinterpretation due to the German word for navy--"Kriegsmarine" (people may know that Krieg means war in German).--Critic9328 23:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Too much credit given to Marshall Plan?

The article states:

"West Germany recovered economically by the 1960s, being called the economic miracle (German term Wirtschaftswunder) due to economic aid by the United States of America (Marshall Plan),..."

This sounds a little to straightforward and self-congraulatory to me, other factors have been cited such as hard work and financial discipline of the Germans, along with the boom in manufacturing as a result of the Korean War.--Critic9328 00:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Article title

I do not know if this has been brought up as an issue in the past, but this seems like something that should be fixed. The term Nazi, as most of you probably know, is a portmanteau of the German words National and Socialist (Nationalsozialistische). I do not know this for certain, but I do not believe the term "Nazi" was used in Germany until sometime after the fall of the Third Reich, which makes the term "Nazi Germany" a questionably accurate name. This article doesn't even seem to mention the actual title of the party in the first few paragraphs. My suggestion: anywhere the term Nazi appears, replace its first mention in an article with "National Socialist (or Nazi)." Yes, 99% of the world says "Nazi," but our readers deserve accuracy and some background on what they are reading. Not to stick my hand into a hornet's nest here (and not to start an argument over whether they were "real socialists" or not) but omitting the term "socialist" when discussing the Third Reich is like omitting "Neocon" when talking about today's United States. (Although, "Neocon America," while maybe destined for use in future encyclopedias when discussing the U.S. 2001-present, would itself be an incorrect title.) Anyways, thank you all and I'd love to hear your comments on my talk page. Paul 15:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Coalition decree issuance

I refer any editors concerned with changes I make to sources povided through my recent history button , prior to any necessary absolute repetition; ie this is done after source in good Faith. The source was Alfred Rosenberg, 1936 A History of the German Republic, a foundational historian in the subject. EffK 12:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

EffK is forced to Abandon a Corrupted Wikipedia

I refer you to my response of a few moments ago at 15 December [[13]],http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/EffK/Evidence#3_December_2005 EffK 01:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)