Talk:Ecuadorian–Peruvian territorial dispute: Difference between revisions

Flame war

There have been flame wars in this talk page in the past. They are mostly resolved and have been archived at Talk:History of the Ecuadorian-Peruvian territorial dispute/Flamewar. Readers interested in heated exchanges should use that page. Neurodivergent 14:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I went on to add the sections "Reaching consensus" and "Clearing disputes" to the archive, as they belong to the same topic. What is more, "Clearing disputes" sounded more like an intention from a previously uninvolved third party to get the flame war restarted, long after the two involved contributors had put the matter to rest. It definitely belongs to the archive. Happy Wiki-ing! --200.124.230.250 16:17, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Size of the Article

Hello! I've seen the article has grown quite a bit! Since it's already beyond the recommended 32 kb, I suggest creating a new article out of the subsection on the Resolution of the Conflict. This is topic very interesting all by itself, and perhaps deserves its own entry, something along the lines of "Resolution of the Ecuadorian-Peruvian Conflict". Hope to hear your opinions. --Andres C. 20:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good. "Resolution of the Ecuadorian-Peruvian dispute" for consistency. If it's an article of its own, it should probably contain more historic references, such as Mahuad's visit to Peru, Fujimori's visit to Quito, the protests in Peru, and so on. Neurodivergent 14:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Mahuad? You mean Abdalá? Abdalá Bucaram was the one who visited Peru...why, Fujimori even invited him to eat some of that pachamanka...Yes, we also have to include Fujimori in Guayaquil, he got quite a reception down at the Malecón, breaking the protocol and all, fishing in the Guayas, behind the statue of Bolívar and San Martín. Quite a story. Andres C. 21:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. It looks like Mahuad never went to Peru. Abdala's visit was the first official visit by a president in 170 years. Fujimori's visit to Ecuador first ever I think. I do specifically recall people cheering when Fujimori arrived in Ecuador. Neurodivergent 17:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV Project

I'll attempt to add some information and correct the POV of this article. Note: Before deleting any sentence from the new content, please demonstrate that the sentence is false, unsubstantiated or non-notable. Replace grammar and spelling at will, though. I think that's not too much to ask. 200.63.231.224

I should mention that even though I'm Ecuadorian, my wife and my step daughter are both Peruvian. We live in Ecuador. In college my two best friends at different times were Peruvian as well. I have some interest in getting this article right because my step-daughter had been teased and scared in school by kids who told her that Ecuador is small because Peru "stole" our territory. I've told her those kids have a problem in that they are xenophobic, not her, but still, she was interested in finding out "the truth". 200.63.231.224 19:22, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

A note on militarism

Hello. I should start this small entry by saying I am a Peruvian citizen. Just a note on my fellow Peruvian citizen posting and his reference to militarism. I served in the Peruvian Army for a short while (reached the rank of lieutenant before droping out to pursue other things in life), and I feel most proud for having served my country wearing the uniform.

What Messhermit says about uniforms and militarism, in no way represents the thinking of Peruvians in general about their respect for their Armed Forces, and the privilege that means for a Peruvian citizen to serve his country by putting on the uniform of the Army, the Air Force, or the Navy. Perhaps, no one loves his country more than a soldier because only the soldiers get to know their nation so well. That is not militarism. My compatriot is wrong in that point. Please take it as a personal opinion of the person who wrote that.

That is all I wanted to add. Saludos a todos. 157.100.165.249 18:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

In any moment I have stated disrespect for the Peruvian Army or Air Force (and the Navy too). As a personal opinion, one does not need to use a uniform or a rifle to serve his country. The fact that another wikipedist attempted to use that against my person, was the main reason behind the use of that argument. Any person (military or civilian) is capable of loving his country in the most appropiated way. If you serve in the Peruvian Army, that was your personal decition, and I'm glad to hear that you still feel proud of doing it. Unfortunatelly, what I cannot accept, it's the fact that another wikipedist stated, basically saying that because I did not serve in the army, I'm not qualify to express my patriotism towards my country. Glad to clarify that. Messhermit 18:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Verifiability issues

Hello. On the section "Ecuador's thesis of nullity", we find the following sentence:

On September 29, 1960 Ecuadorian president José María Velasco Ibarra declared the Rio Protocol null and void. (Some specualate he had internal political motivations for doing so.)

The problem here is the presence of the weasel term some speculate. Knowing Velasco Ibarra's liking for all things melodramatic, I get the point, but it is likely that non-Ecuadorian readers may be at a loss. I mean, who exactly is doing the speculation? In order to stick to Wikipedia's policy regarding verifiability and avoidance of weasel terms, I think it is necessary to back this up with some reliable source, or reword this sentence so as to avoid the "some speculate" part. I haven't found anything on Velasco Ibarra's domestic political calculations behind the 1960 decision. In the worst-case scenario, we may have to delete it altogether until we can come up with some data to support this speculation. A great article like this should try to steer clear from speculations. I'll be glad to know what everybody thinks. Fine job by the way!. Regards --Andres C. 01:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Normally speculation should be excluded, that's true. But in this case that's an important part of Peru's POV, and the article tries to present both POVs as extensively as possible. Any recommendations on how you'd change the wording of that? Neurodivergent 14:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I changed it a bit. What do you think? Neurodivergent 14:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Seems to be the best way to include the Peruvian POV without falling into a weasel term trap. BTW, in 1960 Velasco Ibarra declared the nullity of the Protocol after coming to power for his fourth term, beating hands downs Carlos Guevara Moreno after obtaining around 50% of total votes in the presidential election. Typical of him, he was out by 1961.

Andres C. 15:30, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

About President, Velasco Ibarra, I would like to present some important evidence that may reveal the real motives behind his invalidation of the protocol:

• Despite his populist rhetoric, Velasco Ibarra remained clearly and deliberately allied with the conservative oligarchy. [1]
• On March 30, 1946, Velasco Ibarra declared himself dictator, abrogated the progressive 1945 constitution (which had been in effect only a little more than a year) and reinstated the 1906 constitution. [2]
• Velasco's populism continued into his inaugural address, when he renounced the 1942 Rio Protocol. He thus came to power with the adoration of the masses, but he saddled himself with expensive commitments to the poor at a time when deficits in the state coffers were approaching a critical level. [3]
• Additionally, Velasco threatened Ecuador's shaky economy with what amounted to a declaration of hostilities against Peru' and the guarantors of the Rio Protocol, namely Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and the United States. [4]

With these examples, it is obvious that he did not exclude populist and nationalist rethoric in order to gather political support, an in more than one opportunity, attempting to achieve dictatorial powers. Thus, I'm in favor of restore the deleted line. Messhermit 18:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

He definitely was a populist -- well known fact. Perhaps you can play that into the article. But it all remains as speculation. It's possible other presidents of Ecuador would've done something similar. (Btw, nothing was deleted.) Neurodivergent 18:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Circunstancial is not the appropiated word that I would use, since the facts exist. As any other President since the War of 1941, he knew the political support that he would get with that move. It's important to stated that also. Messhermit 18:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Circumstantial evidence simply means that there is no direct evidence; in trials, for example, it means that there are no eye witnesses. (Even DNA evidence is considered circumstantial, but that's another topic.) In this case it simply means that based on a pattern of past behavior you predict a motivation. To not be circumstantial, you'd basically have to have a written statement by Velasco saying that in fact he came up with the idea of nullity as a political tool. As an analogy, I think Dick Cheney pushed for the invasion of Iraq in order to benefit Halliburton. Any suggestions on how I shold play that into the Dick Cheney article? Neurodivergent 18:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Same Culture

Ecuador and Peru are populated by people who share a language, a culture, a religious preference, have basically the same social and ethnic diversity, and comparable economic difficulties.

It is true that we do share the same language, religion, and social and ethnic diversity, but it is certainly not true that we share the same culture. Every country especially in Latin America, have their own culture, something many North Americans are not aware of. Often ignorant statements are heard such as: "You look like your from Mexico, what part?", says the North American. "No, I'm from Peru", says the Latin American. "Oh, well their basicly the same thing, right?" says the ignorant North American. "Hey isn't South America part of Mexico?" These are the kinds of statements commonly heard in the USA. This encyclopedia should help some of our ignorant neighbors to the north that in fact each and everyone of the 17 Latin American countries actually all have their own culture, attractions, and history. This is why Simon Boliviar's dream to have a single South American nation never would have been able to become true.

You do have a point. But compared to any other two countries in latin america, Ecuador and Peru are remarkably similar. For example, Quechua is the indigenous language spoken in Peru, Quichua in Ecuador. Even accent-wise, Spanish spoken in Ecuador and Peru is fairly similar, compared to, say, Colombian accent. Which cultural differences would you say are significant? (I'm in Peru currently btw). Neurodivergent 16:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

As to Bolivar's dream, I don't buy that's a good reason. Consider Europe. Those are countries which don't even share a language, and yet, there's a European Union. Neurodivergent 16:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The fact that the Gran Colombia failed had nothing to do with cultural differences, and everything to do with greed, and lack of representation for the population as a whole (aside from the dominance of a certain group). How do you think the US would feel if all of the government posts were taken by Californians?Dragonlord kfb 03:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Good example. Usually, the Federations that have failed can be explained due to political; rather than cultural; problems. Messhermit 03:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Rio Protocol

Ecuador actually became an independent Republic in 1830, not in 1930. In 1830, Tumbes and Jaén were in Peruvian hands, but the Amazonian basin was devoid of any Peruvian presence north of the Marañón river. Actually,in 1830 the only people living there were indigenous tribes, who didn't know or care about the new states of Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru claiming sovereignty over their lands. Thank you. Andres C. 16:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The Amazonian basin was also devoid of any Ecuadorian presence north of the Marañón river. Messhermit 18:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

That is correct. In 1830 there was no presence of Ecuadorian or Peruvian authorities in the area. That is implicitly stated in the previous post. Andres C. 21:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

On REVERTS and DELETIONS

Hello Messhermit. I would like to ask you to please use the revert tool in a reasonably fair way. I know you are used to do this, but I think that it is not very polite to revert all edits made by another wikipedian if there is not a strong reason for doing so, like for example a case of vandalism. I am sure most other wikipedians would agree with that,as that is standard policy in Wikipedia. All data related to the military aspects of the war that I included in your article are true, not false or made up by anyone, so there was no reason to delete them. I know you took away everything I wrote based on the fact that I didn't include sources. I have now included them, for your benefit. I hope you find them acceptable enough. Still, not adding sources is not a reason to revert an entire edit without first trying to contact the other editor (in this case, me) and tell him about the drastic measure you are taking. I sense you are a very reasonable person, and I know we can together make this article a much better one, free of points-of-view. Have a very nice day.Andres C. 21:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

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The article was in that shape for several months, and I remind you that it was not writed by my person or you. Another Wikipedist used a far more neutral language. So far, no evidence is provided for your claims more than your word that those sources have that material, wich clearly states an Ecuadorian (and thus, not neutral) POV. Regarding Fujimori, he was declared the winner of the 1995 peruvian national elections that were fair, according to international sources. Explaining this, I'm reverting 'your POV. Messhermit 21:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

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I am sorry to see that you are taking this attitude, going so far as to claim that I am making up sources (a most unpolite measure, if I may say so). If you have any doubts about the bibliographical sources, you must check them by yourself. You can find them in any municipal or university library in Lima or wherever you live. Please, do not revert anything before putting up your case to a Moderator here in Wikipedia. Deleting sources or making accusations about POV without proof must be a very serious transgresion of Wikipedia rules. As for Fujimori, I don't have anything to comment, as I have not edited anything regarding this Peruvian president. Please check the HISTORY page to see who changed things to a version you did not like. Messhermit: I am reverting your reversion. Please be aware that you cannot make more than three reverts per day. I suggest you take the case up to a MODERATOR before further reverting. You must be ready to explain why adding technical information about the military history of the war is contrary to the POV rules. Saying that Peru had two light infantry divisions in Ureta's Army, or that Ecuador had no AA guns outside Puerto Bolívar is hardly a pro-Ecuadorian POV attitude. In any case, I am somewhat surprised that you don't know about Luis Humberto Delgado, which is a very important historian in your country (but not as good as Mr. Basadre, the best historian Peru has ever produced). I have seen your sources, Messhermit. I sincerely think that Delgado is a better source of information. The same thing about Rodríguez, which was the commander of the Ecuadorian forces in El Oro. Eloy Ureta has also a book about the campaign. Sadly, I have been unable to find a copy in Ecuador. Have a nice day. And please, don't use the RV tool in such a drastic manner. Stay cool. Andres C. 23:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

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Let's get clear on this.

• I have already stated that the sources that you claim cannot be confirmed. Is there any link? No.
• Because the language that you are using for your editions, it is more than clear that you are pushing a POV; in this case, the ecuadorian one. The article was using a much more neutral language before your editions. Thus, regarding the POV issue, it has nothing to do with your sources.
• Regarding President Fujimori, if you claim to known little or nothing about this Peruvian Ex-president, I don't understand your reasons to keep uploading the part of his supposed dictatorship.

I will not revert the article, but I will remove the POV. Messhermit 00:17, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

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• Messhermit: We have already gone through this before. The first time around, I did not understand what was happening. Now, I know better. Reverting changes or edits is something that you have been accused of by many people here in Wikipedia. Many have also complained of your accusations about "pushing POVs" when they write something you don't like. Look, it is all over in your talk page.
• Now, you are complaining that since there are no links to my sources, they cannot be posted. Since you are a veteran wikipedian, you should know better about the rules here in Wikipedia regarding SOURCES and VERIFIABILITY. So please take a minute of your time to read Wikipedia's policy on Verifiability.

This is what Wikipedia considers official policy:

Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed.

I want you to reflect on the fact that Wikipedia does not depend exclusively on material that is on the internet. Many valuable books are not on the internet, and in fact, the internet is the worst choice when it comes down to look up for sources for articles. If you allow me say so, we can see this on the sources your post, which are all from the internet. Look at this example:

As with all other such incidents, there are conflicting accounts to this day as to which side fired the first shot. Peru's version of events (notably well documented in Peruvian sources [25][26]) is that Ecuador had been making incursions into its territory since 1937 and occupied several border locations by 1940.

Now look where the note 26 lead us to: peruvictorsofcenepa

This is a very well-known anonymous ultranationalist website from Peru, very much like the Ecuadorian "webnacionalistaecuatoriano" site. Nobody takes it seriously, and still, somebody has used it as reference to an article regarding the history of our nations. Don't you think articles regarding the Ecuadorian-Peruvian history deserve more than that? And still, you delete entire contributions because you don't happen to have Luis H. Delgado's book at hand...I mean, he is a very well known Peruvian historian. How could you say you can't verify the information? All you have to do is to go to your university library and ask for the book.

Delgado, Luis Humberto. Las Guerras del Perú. Campaña del Ecuador, vol I, Ed. Latino América. 1944 (first edition).

This is a very important source for everything regarding the 1941 from the Peruvian POV. How could you dismiss it as unverifiable??

I don't want to argue with you. I just want you to reflect on some of the basic policies of Wikipedia. As for Fujimori, I already stated that I don't have anything to do with that. I am just reverting your reverts. That is what happens when someone just uses the revert tool in an appropiate manner. Things get all mixed-up. I hope you can let me help you editing the article on the 1941 war. You can bring in all the bibliography you have from the Peruvian perspective, from serious and reliable sources, and it will make for a much better article. Best Regards,Andres C. 03:52, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

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Once again, let me be claer on this:

• I have so far avoided to rely on ultranationalistic webpages, Ecuadorian and Peruvians. Thus, I see no point in using that as an accusation against my person. The words Well Documented on Peruvian Sources were your editions, and I don't remember having added that link.
• Regarding the sources, let me give you and example of what I'm talking about:

Further reading Red Flag Over Afghanistan: The Communist Coup, the Soviet Invasion, and the Consequences - Thomas T. Hammond - ISBN 0-86531-444-6

As you can see, there is the full title and the code of identification. With that information, it's easier to search for that book over the net. THAT's the only way to verify your information, since you don't provide any link on the net.

• Please remove the accusations that you are making against my person. Your ideas that I'm a POV Pusher have no solid base, and I considere them an insult. Several of my editions are to rectify and remove POV, like the ones that I remove from your last editions. THOSE are clearly an Ecuadorian POV that only push the article to believe that Ecuador was the victim on this war. Messhermit 13:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

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• If you happen to check on the articles I've contributed so far, you will see that I do take it very seriously the bibliographical data. Please see "Cenepa War" for an example of how Wikipedia asks editors to put this information.
• Books written in 1943 and 1944 DO NOT have ISBN numbers, my friend. Still, since you insist on putting in doubt my credibility, you CAN AT LEAST READ THE BOOKS I used as sources going to your university or municipal library in Lima, or asking a family member to get them for you.
• You accuse people of being "POV-pushers". Please take a look at the HISTORY pages of the articles, where you use the phrase "POV-pushing detected" or something like that wherever you revert edits. I have to repeat what I said before: many here accuse you of being a POV-pusher, many people have complained about this in Wikipedia, even in your talk page. I think they are right. The articles on Ecuadorian-Peruvian issues have a strong pro-Peruvian stance, and people complain about this as well.
• I am aware of your stance regarding who was the victim in the 1941 war. I am sure this belief of Ecuador invading Peru, which is very widespread in your country, does not come from malice. It is due to ignorance regarding the events surrounding the war. Remember that insisting that Ecuador invaded Peru on July 23, 1941 is indeed "Peruvian POV pushing". It has to be included in the article, as long as you ALLOW OTHER EDITORS to explain the state of the Ecuadorian Army in 1941. Read everything Wikipedia has to say on POV attitudes.
• I see you are not very interested in coming to an agreement. I consider myself insulted as well by you. I was insulted when you REVERTED an entire edit and then DELETED SOURCES (which you have done in the past) using the words "POV pushing detected" as an excuse for your actions.
• I must say that if you persist on taking measures contrary to basic policies in Wikipedia, I will have to report your behaviour. I do have to ask you to remember that the original contributor of this very article complained about your behaviour and asked you to read the article on intellectual honesty. This seems to be a good advice.

As always, best regards. Please stay cool. Andres C. 17:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

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The words POV pushing - No sources were put in the article for this main reasons:

• Once again, the language that was use before your editions was fairly neutral. You change them, using clearly an Ecuadorian POV. I CLEARLY stated POV pushing due to that fact. By reverting it, I leave the article in the same way that it was before your POV pushing. As you can see, I have not stated in this article that Peru was in a just cause or Peru was in a great advantage, compare to your recent editions.
• In Wikipedia, readers come here for that reason: they can't find sources. Now, you claim that I should read your sources. So every person that reads this article has to that? I'm afraid that you are not getting the right idea then. Besides your word, there is no single proof, once again, that those books contain that information. And if have not notice it, I'm not in Lima. I will not do your homework. It is you, who as a member of wikipedia, provide the

Another point that I have to make:

• Regarding the stance on who invaded who, it is more than clear that you are the one selling the idea (because you are more than interested in putting that in the article) that the Peruvian Army invaded Ecuador. Both versions are still on dispute, and the openning paragraph of the Ecuadorian-Peruvian War stills states (more or less)that Nobody really knows who started the war.
• Regarding the supposed accusations against my person, it seems that you are fairly interested in accuse me. Be aware that I was under the same treat of a much more experienced (and clearly leflist) Wikipedian Administrator. That is, most of the accusations that you claimed to have readed in my personal page are from that time.
• Your treats (because they are treats) are not a good argument, and the only thing that you are doing is trying to shift the discussion from your Ecuadorian POV editions to accuse my person.
• The same happened the first times that you intented to edit the article, using derogative terms against my person; pointing out my grammatical errors; accusing me of not loving my country; and treating me in a clearly disrespectfull way.

In these sence, besides a few incidents, I have a much more solid record than you. Avoid this option, since the only thing that you could get is more problems than me. Regarding the agreements:

• The one that is not interested in any sort of agreement is you. You only want the information that you consider fair, you only want to present a clearly biased Ecuadorian POV and you clearly tried to shift the topic of this from editions to acussations.
• I must remaind you, once again, that another wikipedist was the original writer of this proyect, and that most of the wording is from him. I have not done any POV modifications, in contrast with your recent editions.

I have left the technical information in the article (I still have my doubts, but I will not search those things for you, since that is your job) and remove any personal opinion that you may have. It is more than clear for me now that your main concern here is to get into troubles anyone who disagree with you. Messhermit 18:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)