Talk:John Kerry/Archive 7: Difference between revisions

• Talk:John Kerry/Feb 2004 archive
• Talk:John Kerry/Mar 2004 archive
• Talk:John Kerry/Family background (March-April 2004)
• Talk:John Kerry/April/May/June 2004 archive
• Talk:John Kerry/July 2004 archive
• Talk:John Kerry/July 2004 archive 2

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POLL

There was a poll in progress, so I've again taken that part of the Talk page from the archive and copied it back in here. I did not copy the lengthy "Comment" subsection from the archived poll discussion -- only the first few subsections, the ones with the votes in them. JamesMLane 08:50, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

All right now. Let's have an informal poll see if they's some way we can stop this before I go completely insane. Here's how it works. Submit what you think shoud be the content of the disputed section in a sub-talk page so we can get a rough estimate of where the consensus is. (A sub-talk page is like this: Talk:John Kerry/Sample.) Neutrality 06:15, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Neutrality's version

(John Kerry/Neutrality)

1. Neutrality 06:15, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

VVAW cross-reference version

(John Kerry/VVAW cross-reference)

1. JamesMLane 06:55, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
2. Lyellin 07:42, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
3. This is excellent. john k 12:36, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Remove section entirely

1. Gzornenplatz 06:32, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
2. Gamaliel 07:30, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
3. john k 11:46, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
4. Ambivalenthysteria 06:58, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Return to Rex's version(s)

1. Rex071404 16:55, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
2. Buster 05:57, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

Here is Rex's (1st version - see 2nd below) of "VVAW": Talk:John_Kerry/Rex's_version (moved to subpage by Ambivalenthysteria for brevity)

Counteroffer

The concept of "an edit truce" is meaningless. Truce or no truce, no one can edit this page while it's protected. I agree with SimonP that the current situation is very bad. Kerry will soon be the Democratic nominee, but only a sysop will be able to include that and other Convention-related information in the article. A more meaningful "truce" would be along these lines: (1) Text of the disputed section 3 is moved to a new page, something like John Kerry/Sandbox, where discussion of the VVAW-related topics can continue; (2) the disputed section 3 is temporarily removed from the main article; (3) the main article is unprotected; (4) everyone agrees not to edit John Kerry on these subjects for at least a week while we try to find consensus on the "sandbox" page. That's not a great solution, because it leaves the article completely silent about Kerry's role in VVAW (a subject we all agree should be covered), but at least it would allow improvements on other subjects. Rex071404, will you accept that as a temporary working plan? JamesMLane 06:50, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have trouble visualizing your offer.

Please tell me; Y/N:

Would there be included in the "unprotected" John Kerry page a section called "The medal-tossing incident" and another called "1971 Meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW)"?

If yes, please post below a vebatim replica of how you say they would appear.

Or if not, why don't you take a few minutes and copy, edit and re-insert below, my version of the '71 meeting section with your suggested changes? I'd like to see if you feel any part of mine is acceptable to you at all.

By the way, doesn't it alarm you that Neutrality was heavily involved in the "pre-protection" editing of John Kerry and also of George_W._Bush prior to it's "protection", but he's now totally silent on the efforts to reach consensus here...?

It's almost as if, having succeded in locking in his edits, Neutrality is sitting on his hands and refusing to help...

Rex071404 07:07, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, they would not. They would be temporarily removed from the article, and then be discussed on a subpage until consensus was reached. As to actually solving this, two of us have attempted to write neutral versions at John Kerry/VVAW cross-reference and Talk:John_Kerry/Lyellin, but you have, as far as I can see, ignored both of them. Ambivalenthysteria 07:15, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That is an unfair characterization. I have reviewed those writings (if we are talking about the same thing) but am still at a loss as to why otherwise involved persons such as yourself will not make the effort to try and refute the list of facts which I have supplied above at the section titled "Summary of Facts". Before I can consider your comment to be anything other than closed-minded noise, please answer this question for me: Do you dispute the truth of those 11 facts which I have listed in that section? If yes, please specify. If not, please drop your opposition to incoporating reference to them (such as I have done in my 2nd suggested text for '71 VVAW, shown above). I await your reply. Rex071404 07:26, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ambivalenthysteria's interpretation of my counteroffer is the correct one. The language now in the John Kerry article as section 3 would be deleted. For now, Neutrality's proposal would not be added. My proposal would not be added. Your proposal would not be added. Lyellin's proposal would not be added. This temporary solution would eliminate all the pro-Kerry information about his eloquent opposition to a colossal governmental mistake, and/or all the anti-Kerry information about his mendacity, depending on how you want to look at it. As for your more recent question, both Lyellin and john k have gone through your eleven points, but I don't have the patience to scrutinize each one to see whether I agree or disagree. I note that the first few relate to Kerry's Vietnam service, which is in section 2 of the current article and therefore wouldn't be covered by my truce counteroffer. As to the ones relating to VVAW, my basic answer is that, whether the statements are true or false, they're not important enough to include in the main article beyond a brief reference. If my proposal is ultimately adopted, the evidence on these subjects can be presented at greater length in the separate article, linked to the main article. I realize that you disagree about the importance of these particular statements. That's your right. You should recognize, however, that this article can't include every truthful statement that anyone might make about John Kerry. Your repeated implication is that, if a contributor refuses to accept a true statement as part of the article, the refusal is clear proof of bias. That implication is unfounded. JamesMLane 07:59, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There is no possiblity that your suggestions here can be acceptable unless the overall pro-Kerry nature of the entire John Kerry page is toned down. For example the single most detailed section of the entire page is titled "Kerry's second tour of duty as commander of a Swift Boat" and yet all this information is dedicated to events which took place within a time span of only approximately four months. To read all the detail, you would think Kerry was in country for several years! If you can't see how this has a POV which favors Kerry, then your suggestions to me will probably not be persuasive. It is inarguably true that Kerry's military service was relativly easy and his medals earned for relativly little. These are inescapable facts and ones that will not go away, whether you succeed in blocking them from inclusion in this Wiki or not. Rex071404 08:16, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Was his second tour of duty in a swift boat? Yes. Title is appropiate. Would it be appropiate to list the amount of time he spent on that second tour in the article. Sure. If it's not there, perhaps a change should be made. But that doesn't make it pro-kerry. Lyellin 08:59, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

This started out as a discussion of section 3. Now you (Rex) seem to be saying that you will continue your "adamancy" as long as there's anything anywhere in the article that you disagree with. If everyone takes that approach, the article might be unprotected just in time for it to include the election results. Instead, let's be practical and think about how we might move forward, OK? I've made a procedural suggestion about addressing the dispute that led to the article's being protected. So far you haven't accepted that suggestion (the truce "counteroffer"). Going beyond the procedure and looking at the substance, my proposal for handling the VVAW controversy in the John Kerry article is to have a summary in the main article with a link to a separate article. This would treat Kerry like his opponent, in that the military service controversy concerning George W. Bush is handled by a summary in the main article with a link to a separate article. To the extent that there's any controversy about Kerry's military service, I'd be amenable to considering having a summary in the main article with a link to a separate article. I would not, however, be amenable to saying that nothing can happen until everyone is satisfied with every aspect of all these articles. JamesMLane 09:15, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I support the idea of this counteroffer, so we can get this discussion off the rather important page, and onto a new section. Ambiva- Rex did try to incorporate portions of my text into a new section, just so you know. I'm working on a reply to the "facts" and also another re-write... just takes time.

That was me Lyellin 07:23, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Lyellin, why don't you do a re-write of my 2nd version of VVAW and post it below. If you take into account my concerns which by now must be obvious, I'd like to see what you come up withRex071404 07:29, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm getting there :P Currently at work, so I try to do a BIT of work in between trying to calm this down. Lyellin 07:37, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Interesting counteroffer, remove everything that is not pro-Kerry from Kerry's BIO as if it never happened, and keep it in dispute till at least the election is over. I hope that not direction I see this going. Wikipedia is inherently biased to the liberal agenda but this is taking it to the extreme. Anonymously signed for good reasons 67.3.219.94 09:08, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Response to 'Facts'

1)Kerry was only in harm's way in Vietnam for FOUR MONTHS! Alright, why don’t we state “Kerry’s second tour of Duty, when he was stationed in Vietnam, was for a duration of 4 months, as he was sent back early due to receiving 3 Purple Hearts. 2)The "wounds" he received were barely scratches. Ok, this one is highly POV. We could describe the wounds, I guess, but that also seems POV. Sorta ambivilant on this one. 3)The Purple Hearts he received for those wounds enabled him to leave early (which he did) I covered this already in # 1 4)The Silver star he recieved was for beaching his boat in contravention of his training and chasing on shore by foot and getting a rocket launcher. He may or may not have shot a fleeing wounded man in the back - we haven't even hashed that out on this page yet. alright, but they DID give him the medal, thereby validating that contradiction of orders. And we can’t know what happened. We can report what people have said. Beyond that, if it’s an enemy combatant, I don’t think ANYONE can object to them being shot. Especially those of us who have not served ina military setting. 5) He willingly participated in an awards toss back (medals) ceremony. No one disputes that 6)About this ceremony, he has changed his story a number of times. We can explain the issue here- HE has said he threw something, perhaps now he threw something else. We can’t say “Oh, he keeps on changing his mind” 7) He was intimately involved as a leader with VVAW. And also left because he did not feel many of the things were appropiate, and felt he could help his cause (which, was still the same as the VVAW), by running for political office 8)Certain VVAW person(s) did advocate violence at a particular meeting.

No one argues that, although I don’t see why this is relevant at all to John Kerry

9)Kerry's contemporanious statements about this have been contradictory. My version mentions this already, in a NPOV manner, as does James 10) The FBI confirms and Kerry campaign accepts as true the fact that Kerry was at that meeting. My version has the FBI, but not the campaign. Alright. 11) Kerry has also changed his story about this several times. ..Kerry says he doesn’t remember, and then has admitted that if records show him there, he must have been there. SO? I don’t remember which meetings I went to of my HS Drama club, and that was just 3 years ago. Lyellin 07:35, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Your response does not refute the truth of my facts, rather, it argues various merits for and against referring to them.

1st we need to clear up whether ot not you agree the facts I state are true. For example, if you don't like the word "scratch", what are we to say about his wounds? That they were "extremely minor"? The truth is, that those wounds were indeed almost nothing more than scratches and to describe them as "minor wounds" paints a misleading picture in the mind of the uninformed.

Most persons, when they think "wound" think stiches and loss of blood at minimum. Kerry did not suffer either of those to any degree. In light of that, his constant parading around as a "band of brothers" man is especially misleading. Did you see that mini-series? The wounds those men suffered were horrific. For Kerry to employ the "band of brothers" theme in his campaign is disgusting. And if you don't think he is doing that, look at this link here

The reason why so many of you think I am POV about my chosen verbiage for Kerry, is that frankly, you are misinformed about many details of Kerry and his public message. What's POV or not in regards to Kerry will largely have to be wieghed against how Kerry potrays himself to the public. If he goes parading around saying things that paint a false picture, it is not nessecarily POV to add some information that allows a reader to put Kerry's claims into context.

Rex071404 07:57, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rex. *sighs* Please, for a second, assume everyone here is as smart as you, and everyone here cares as much as you, ok? I am not misinformed. Heck, I am more informed than I SHOULD be. I regulary have contacts with one of the highest GOP donors in the last election (Hint: I work at an embassy). I read all sorts of various news, from all sorts of sources, from Fox, to CNN, to BBC, to the National Journal. For once, let's assume that everyone is on the same kind of level. I object to your verbiage because it's POV. Many of the "Facts" that you state and portray, are most likly facts. They are also said in a manner that is entirely POV. That's the issue here. Beyond that, notice that there are many of us here who want to resolve this, as quickly as possible, as appropiately as possible.

All of that above though, is a non-issue. Whether or not we are informed does not affect if we can see that a sentence is highly motivated in a point-of-view manner in one way or another.

I was not trying to refute or prove your "facts". I'm not in a debate about the facts here. I'm in a debate about what needs to be included into a NPOV, encyclopedic article. The truth of the matter is, the national media has barely paid much attention to this. EITHER side of the media. It was an issue, it was reported, then it became a non-issue.

I've been posting about the VVAW meeting. Medals are a different issue. Wounds/medals are a different issue. Needing a seperate section. But you know what, I don't have Kerry's Medical reports after the wounds. Do you? If you do, please show them to me, I'll be interested to read them. Regardless, he was wounded, he got the purple hearts. The same arguemetn can be made that Bush was in the military. He was. Now, I personally believe he skipped out, etc, etc, but we have a seperate page for that for a reason.

Lyellin 08:06, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Oh yippie! Form what you say, it appears that you (as well as have I) have met Richard Egan in the past. Big deal. Are you implying that you speak for him and that he is now anti-Bush (as are you)? Here is something for you to chew on: Who give's a rat's ass what the "national media" keeps up with as meritous of being reported. That is NOT a valid benchmark as almost 90% of all persons in the media self-indentify as being democrats! In fact, by citing the media, you make my point: This information, though true is not being tracked almost anywhere else, which leads me to this question: Are you suggesting that this Wiki carry only that information which can be directly derived from National Media sources? Why not just publish CNN newsfeeds then? Now in regards to KErry's medical record, I tried posting this information in my 1st version of the sub-section which was then called "combat medals", but Neutrality kept deleting it. Here is what he kept deleting:

"Due to questions regarding the nature of his wounds, in 2004, Kerry's Campaign staff released his military records. These show second citations for a Silver Star and a Bronze Star were issued by John F. Lehman, who was Secretary of the Navy eleven years after Kerry's service. Some news reports have indicated that parts of these released records were in summary form only (Kerry Doctor Issues Summary)."

Now interestingly enough, contrary to what most people think, Kerry HAS NOT released the details about the wounds and treatment for all his wounds. He has released only a re-cap summary as explained in the link. Rex071404 08:35, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No rex. My point is that your continued accusations that we all have no idea what we are talking about, are completly ignorant of everything, and don't care, are unfounded. Ignoring the Media bias arguement (As oh, I love that arguement, but that's irrelevant to now, luckily), I happen to like putting in information as NPOV as possible. Which is why I like to draw from national media, but several sources, to get quotes (not analysis), from the people involved.

Ok, so Kerry hasn't released his medical records? Ignoring the issue of this sounds like the other presidential candidate in some ways, it also is irrelevant. He hasn't released them. I can't tell you what his wounds were, I don't have the facts at hand. Which really makes me wary of any statement about them, in EITHER direction, being POV, beyond something like "he recieved wounds, they got him purple hearts". Lyellin 08:49, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Only if you are so stubborn that you refuse to read the little that Kerry has admitted to. Kerry's limited medical records release clearly show that the injuries were almost nothing. Read the link will you PLEASE: (Kerry Doctor Issues Summary).Rex071404 09:06, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Having read it, I notice that he lists three pieces of sharpnal. Alright. Also a contusion (which basically amounts to nothing). He had shrapnal, was treated. So he didn't lose an arm. The basic facts still don't change, and I can't see your point. He was ignored, he got purple hearts. What is wrong with that statement? Lyellin 09:20, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

The information you supplied above about how you use the media is so funny, I am almost plotzed myself! Are you serious? If you ask 10 gluttons to go interview people on the street about any subject the gluttons choose, you can be pretty sure that the quotations obtained that way will be mostly about food. The fact that you can't see the pernicous effect of the liberal media bias, helps explain yours...Rex071404 09:10, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Now you are also attacking me as well. I had hoped to avoid that. Rex, I use the media, just as you have been doing above (Quoting sources.. New York Sun, etc), because the media is a valid source. It is not the only source. So are sources like the Medical release you linked to. I am almost going to completly ignore the fact that I've been trying to resolve this, with NPOV options, asking for your opinon, and trying to move this matter to a seperate entity, along with otehrs, you and insist on spending time here bereting all of us. Heck, I think I'm the only one here that openly admits to perferring kerry, and I'm working with and trying to compromise with you. Lyellin 09:16, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

If anyone cares, I intend to vote for Kerry, but I agree with Lyellin that the standard here is to construct an encyclopedic, NPOV article. Unfortunately, from the perspective of moving toward that goal, time spent trying to reason with Rex seems to be completely wasted. I don't know whether we get off this treadmill through mediation, arbitration or some other mechanism, but what we've been doing so far isn't getting anywhere. JamesMLane 09:38, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Try this one

There is a second version on Talk:John_Kerry/Lyellin. Lyellin 07:48, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Except for formatting the link, that's much better than your previous effort. However you still have not said what problems you have with my current version (my #2 sample). Why do you insist on changing mine to such a degree? Rex071404 08:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

People insist on changing it because it's considered by numerous people to be POV. That's why there's been numerous attempts at trying something else. I don't like Lyellin's new version as much - I don't see the difference between version 1 and version 2, except that version 2 is a bit longer and has more messy wording. Ambivalenthysteria 08:08, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Typing in a bit of a rush. I'm worrying about an acceptable version, not properly formatted, right now. Why? because you have whole paragraphs that do nothing that speculate, and make the section ENTIRELY too long. We've discussed that above, about the relative importance of sections. I can say everything, show the discrepency in Kerry's statements, and still only take four paragraphs, instead of eight, while also making it much more NPOV and leading. I happen to think version 1 is better. Unfortunetly, I've not had enough time to edit version 2 to be happy with it. Lyellin 08:10, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

I've archived the page again - it had got up to 68kb. Ambivalenthysteria 08:28, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Ambiv. Lyellin 08:53, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Re-insertion of "Summary of Facts" as carry-over from Archive July 04 #2

I am interested to present the facts in such a manner that the reader says to themselves: "I didn't know that". That's it, that's my entire objective. And what do you ask, might they currently not know? Here are the facts you people keep obfuscating:

1) Kerry was only in harm's way in Vietnam for FOUR MONTHS! 2) The "wounds" he received were barely scratches. 3) The Purple Hearts he received for those wounds enabled him to leave early (which he did) 4) The Silver star he recieved was for beaching his boat in contravention of his training and chasing on shore by foot and getting a rocket launcher. He may or may not have shot a fleeing wounded man in the back - we haven't even hashed that out on this page yet. 5) He willingly participated in an awards toss back (medals) ceremony. 6) About this ceremony, he has changed his story a number of times. 7) He was intimately involved as a leader with VVAW. 8) Certain VVAW person(s) did advocate violence at a particular meeting. 9) Kerry's contemporanious statements about this have been contradictory. 10) The FBI confirms and Kerry campaign accepts as true the fact that Kerry was at that meeting. 11) Kerry has also changed his story about this several times.

In brief, those are the essential FACTS, each of which is TRUE and can be shown via external sources to be true, around which I'd like to write "Medals" and "VVAW".

Unless and until you pro-Kerry persons can refute my facts, I remain adamant that my version be used as the starting point, for I indeed have refuted your "facts" and shown them to be primarily a grab-bag of assertions and personal feelings, such as various contributors expresions along the lines of "so what" and "it's not that important". Rex071404 00:44, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Lyellin responded to every single one of those above, as did someone else in a prior archive. Just because you don't get the answers you want doesn't mean they haven't been responded to. Ambivalenthysteria 08:41, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Regardless of your false characterizations of what has transpired, these facts HAVE NOT been refuted. Indeed, the contortions that some such as you are going through to avoid facing up to these facts would make any limbo artist proud. Rex071404 08:44, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rex, There are many facts I can dispute. Kerry is tall (That's in the article! Re: "Lanky Yankee - Rex071404 09:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)) . That doesn't nessecarily mean I need to put that in the article. My mother likes KErry. A fact (Mom's not a public figure so not noteworthy - Rex071404 09:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC). But irregardless, our job here is not to refute facts, or prove them, it is to figure out what goes into an article (of course you allow tons of pro-Kerry crap in. - Rex071404 09:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)). Those of us here who are trying to NPOV are giving compromises that still state what you want (that he may or may not have been double-talking) without leading people to a conclusion that is a purely POV conclusion. This is not a debate about the facts (please review previous postings - others have spent considerable time and detail deleting and attacking my facts, regardless of gently I present them or how little text they take up- Rex071404 09:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)), it's a debate about what to include, and how to include it. Lyellin 08:52, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

You won;t be satisifed unless and until you write a glowing pro-Kerry biopic. This has turned into a farce. Goodnight.Rex071404 09:03, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No Rex, I won't be satisfied till it is NPOV. Currently though, I'm paying attention to this section. Want the truth? I haven't read the rest of the article. I saw a request for comment, so I came over, saw the issues at hand, and was trying to figure out how to help. Now tell me, if my second one is more acceptable, and my first was partly, what is the issue? I'm stating what you want, and I'm doing t in a NPOV way. Now, I will be going through the kerry article to see about NPOV, but not until this is resolved, and only in a way that is NPOV... ignoring my personal POV. I can't let that cloud my judgement as to what or not to include, and i worry that you are letting your POV cloud yours. Lyellin 09:09, Jul 29, 2004

(UTC)

Please go back to the beginning of this issue and take note of how many times Neutrality reverted me without discussion. Also, search each page for my name to see what I've had to say so far and also read the links I've offered up. If you work quick, this will take no more than 1/2 - 1 hour of your time. I'm going to bed now - I've been at this for the last 16 hours.Rex071404 09:16, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rex, I read those. I haven't read the article itself, which is what I said. I've read the links. Neutrality's reverts are not at issue with the NPOV of this section. Might be something to talk up with Neut, but not with the NPOV of this section. Lyellin 09:22, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Arbitration?

I suggested earlier that it may be worth proceeding with pushing for arbitration, as we seemed to not be getting anywhere, and I doubt mediation would be of much assistance at this point. It got swamped over in the discussion, but after JamesALane's latest response, I figure it's worth putting up again. However, if you guys want to keep trying, I'm happy to do so. Ambivalenthysteria 09:49, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'll do whatever the community thinks best. I'm perfectly willing to sit here and try to hash things out, or to go to mediation. Lyellin 10:02, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

My comment was vague as to the best way to proceed because I don't feel very familiar with the dispute resolution mechanisms. I took a quick look at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and noted that arbitration is described as a last resort. I don't know whether all this flailing around that we've been doing would enable us to "show that [we] tried to resolve the dispute by other means." I also looked at Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance. I thought about raising the matter there but the AMA seems geared more toward helping people present a case in the context of one of the other methods.

One concern I have is with the time a process takes. This article is unusually timely. Arbitrations can apparently take several weeks. I'd hate to see this article remain protected for all that time. JamesMLane 10:13, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What we've been doing of late is pointless. I say arbitration. john k 10:17, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's a catch-22. I don't think we're getting anywhere here. James: The AMA is for representing people in Arbitration proceedings. Were you looking for Wikipedia:Requests for mediation? We could try that, but based on Lyellin's experience so far, I'm inclined to think that it would also be a waste of time.

On the other hand, arbitration proceedings could take weeks, and it looks terrible if this article is protected right through a time when it's likely to get a great deal of hits. We could ask for a temporary injunction, which is provided for under the arbitration policy, but to my knowledge, hasn't been acted upon yet. I think I'll go and ask a few people as to what could be the best course of action from here on out. Ambivalenthysteria 11:03, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What a mess this discussion page has become. Multiple reinsertions of the same sections with new comments afterwards. Sigh. I'm not very familiar with any but the RfC stage of dispute resolution. I share James and AH's concern that arbitration could take a very long time--and what would we be arbitrating anyways?--isn't arbitration for user behavior? I do think Rex has little grasp of or patience for Wiki-culture and has been rather rude and consistently asssumes bad faith on others. He is obviously a single-issue POV warrior with no apparent interest in Wikipedia other than forcing his POV on this article--so perhaps arbitration is appropriate, but I suspect the arbboard might like to see this try go through mediation first. But with either mediation or arbitration, what happens to the article in the mean time? older≠wiser 12:03, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Listening to you guys talk, it's like we are are on two different planets. Time and time again, I have asked everyone on this page to specifically comment on my 2nd example for VVAW, but the best most of you can muster is "Oh boy, we can't make any progress!". You can't make any progress, because you won't focus your mind on the task at hand, which is, REACHING CONSENSUS! Therefore, I am reposting my 2nd VVAW (again) and am asking each if you to look at it and tell me; what specifically are your objections to it? Here is is again(!):

Rex071404 15:43, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

1971 Meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW)

File:Kerryrally.jpg

John Kerry speaks at an anti-Vietnam War rally.

From November 12th to 15th, 1971, a VVAW meeting was held in Kansas City, Missouri. The meeting is quite controversial because one VVAW member in attendance suggested that the VVAW should assassinate, among others, seven Senators who were in favor of continuing the Vietnam War, including Strom Thurmond, John Stennis, and John Tower.

And even though most reports indicate this suggestion was soundly rejected, controversy has arisen in some circles as to whether or not Kerry was at this meeting, and whether or not his statements about this and as to when he quit VVAW have been consistent and accurate.

Kerry’s campaign, according to the Boston Globe, says that Senator Kerry does not remember attending the Kansas City meeting, nor does he remember the specific discussion in question.

Additionally, although Kerry has at times stated that he had already quit the VVAW before this meeting took place, the New York Sun reported on March 12, 2004 that "Kerry's presence at this meeting has been confirmed by several witnesses, even though Senator Kerry has stated that he does not remember attending." [1]

However, Scott Camil, the man who suggested using violence, has more recently said that he does not remember Kerry being there. According to the Boston Globe, Camil states “He had nothing to do with this, I don’t remember seeing him there.”

Other sources, including the FBI and also another VVAW Member, Randy Barnes, have corroborated Kerry as attending the meeting. However Mr. Barnes has more recently restated his position on this and now says that he may have been mistaken as to which meeting in Missouri he saw Kerry at.

The varying contentions surrounding Kerry's alleged attendance at this controversial meeting as well as the contradictory evidence as to precisely when he did in fact disassociate himself from VVAW has caught the eye of several national commentators, including John Fund of the Wall Street Journal and Patrick J. Buchannon, the right-wing idealogue.

The varying reports on this topic do not make clear precisely what the historical record is, however most published reports do give Mr. Kerry the benefit of the doubt and are clear to avoid suggesting that he was personally in favor of assassinating US Politicians. It is also reasonably clear that regardless of when indeed Mr. Kerry actually did quit the VVAW, it was in any case, no later than approximately 6 months after the controversial November 1971 meeting

Question for the group

Using a scale (picture it as analog meter, such as a multimeter) of 1-100 with 50 being exactly neutral (pure NPOV), 0 being totally "negative against" Kerry and 100 being totally "positive for" Kerry, what would you rate the current status of John Kerry?

I would rate some sections of it over 90! And this is why I am so keen on getting some balancing material in.

If you fellows would agree to lower the glowing biopic tone of the current John Kerry page, I would not feel as strong as a need to get all of my facts from my "Summary of Facts" highlighted.

What say you to that?

Rex071404 15:53, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)