Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign): Difference between revisions

In a nutshell

From this article which neatly summarizes both major sides http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/457868/Gamergate_Escalates

excerpted. Note that the perspective of GamerGate is inherently the original accusation against game journalism. this seems to be a fairly neutral summary of major viewpoints.

The #GamerGate Points include:

1. They think the gaming media is corrupt. Specifically, they think that gaming journalism is a clique that chooses what to cover and how to spin it based on their shared politics and relationships.
2. They think the big publishers buy positive coverage outright and that the little indies sleep/schmooze their way to positive coverage.
3. They are outraged at having their criticism misrepresented as misogyny
4. They strongly object to having their movement characterized based on the misbehavior of a tiny group of trolls and jerks.
5. They are angry that attempts to discuss the topic get blocked, censored, deleted, etc.
6. They are outraged at what they see as collusion in the gaming media openly attacking gamers as a bunch of “nerds” “gamers are dead” “basement dwellers”, etc.
7. They have evidence demonstrating double standards in how the gaming media treats different issues based on their politics
8. They believe that the gaming media has become infested by “Social Justice Warriors” who are using their platforms to jam their politics down the throats of people who just want to read about video games.

The opponents of #gamergate points include:

1. Any legitimate points the #gamergate movement might have had are far outweighed by the harassment and threats against outspoken women in the industry that is done in the name of #gamergate
2. They (gaming media) are outraged at being called corrupt
3. They (gaming media) are upset at the suggestion that the gaming media has some sort of organized conspiracy
4. They (general) believe gamers are inherently insular and want to shout down any attempts at reforming it.
5. They (general) believe gamers are entitled and thin-skinned, unable to show empathy or accept even mild criticism of their hobby.
6. They (gaming media) are angry that their entire profession is being mischaracterized based on poor choices made by a few
7. They (general) are very skeptical of new #gamergate claims because of the misrepresentations made during early claims
8. They believe that the “sane” people who support #gamergate are being used/tricked by the vile, misogynist core that is at the heart of #gamergate

--DHeyward (talk) 21:34, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Before anyone jumps in to say it's not a reliable source: Brad Wardell is an industry veteran. Edit: this contribution is not mine; I don't know why it wasn't tagged with the user's IP or handle. Willhesucceed (talk) 20:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Missed sig. Sorry. Yes, Wardell is a long time game developer. --DHeyward (talk) 21:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it's an acceptable source for presenting Wardell's own opinion about the issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:18, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

It's actually a neutral view from a third party with knowledge of both sides of the dispute and fairly assesses each party's views. It should be a model outline for the article as a NPOV description of the controversy. The only question, really, is how to get there. If you don't see that, you probably shouldn't be editing the article. --DHeyward (talk) 04:37, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, no. It's not remotely a neutral view and it's a self-published source to boot, which makes it entirely unacceptable as a source for anything except Brad Wardell's own opinion. It contains statements such as "In my mind, the balance of wrongdoing is heavily weighted on the opponents of #gamergate. Mainly, because its opponents have had a long head start of character assassination and harassment," "For that, the anti-#gamergate people started smearing me. (SJW logic: Make up allegations, use allegations as evidence, repeat)" and "You want me to quit throwing in the misdeeds of the SJW crowd in SJW faces? Then tell them to quit character assassinating me." This is literally the opposite of a neutral, reliable source. And no, sources don't have to be neutral but they do have to be reliable, and for them to be reliable they can't be self-published.

What you linked is nothing more than Brad Wardell's own personal blog, which has undergone no fact-checking or editorial processes. I remind you that we reached agreement that Zoe Quinn's Cracked.com blog was not an appropriate source for this article even for Quinn's own perspective. If that post cannot be used in this article, then there is most certainly no grounds for using this one. You cannot possibly argue that one personal blog by a game developer outweighs the literal mountain of mainstream reliable sources available. If you don't see that, you probably shouldn't be editing the article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

and it is certainly not representative of how the mainstream sources have presented it, which is what we must be striving for, per policy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The link is less important than the outline I excerpted. He wants to be peacemaker from his statements but his outline of the controversy (above) is a neutral outline of points held by both sides. It's a concise list of what each side is articulating and neutral coverage would articulate those points. --DHeyward (talk) 05:03, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The outline does not represent the mainstream coverage and so it is a non starter as a basis for anything. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Who are you to say what is considered "mainstream" and what "isn't"? What? Are you not supposed to gather facts from the other side of the argument because these apparently "bigger, better" journals say it isn't? And since when were restricted to news sites? Whoever said any of them weren't biased? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derpen (talk • contribs) 21:43, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"In a post on his personal blog, Brad Wardell argued that the GamerGate movement is outraged at what they see as collusion in the gaming media." I'm fine with using the source in that manner. (And frankly, given the fact that Zoe Quinn's Cracked.com blog was rejected despite it being closer to a reliable source than Brad Wardell's personal blog, I think I'm being nice here.) Using it as a framework for what the article should say instead of using the umpteen squillion third-party mainstream reliable sources presented here? Not a chance. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:12, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

"given the fact that Zoe Quinn's Cracked.com blog was rejected despite it being closer to a reliable source" Cracked is not anywhere near a reliable source. They're sensationalists. At least this source is trying to be sober. Willhesucceed (talk) 10:38, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Cracked has an actual editorial staff with at least some level of editorial review and content control. Brad Wardell's personal blog has literally none at all. So yes, Cracked is closer to what we consider to be a reliable source than Brad Wardell's personal blog is. You can't have it both ways — it is literally self-contradictory to argue that Cracked fails WP:RS because it lacks sufficient editorial controls while also arguing that Brad Wardell's personal blog meets WP:RS despite its lack of any editorial controls. That is a very obvious double standard.

And you must be kidding about Wardell "trying to be sober," right? The language used in his post speaks for itself; it is not sober, neutral or dispassionate in the least. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Cracked may have an editorial team, but it's a terrible one. They pick a salacious topic and then craft the article around it. Many, many of their articles have factual inaccuracies, too. They're not in any way reliable. Anyway, we're not here to debate Cracked's merit.

As a source on Wardell's opinion, this suffices. "Sober" is not the same as "passionless". He's obviously got reasons for his tenor. I agree it shouldn't be used as a template for the article, but I see no reason to exclude it altogether. That's all I was saying. Willhesucceed (talk) 13:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

You're only focusing on one aspect. He characterizes views of each side. It's relevant because in articles about living people balance and getting it right is more important that just publishing. Do you disagree with the any of the statements that the points reflect each side? If that's the neutral perspective, then the goal should be to find the sources. Is there any statement or idea expressed, from either side, that is foreign to editors here? I took those 16 points because it appears all 16 are supported views. --DHeyward (talk) 07:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

No, that's the opposite of the correct approach. We don't pick a narrative we like and then find sources to support that choice; when done with intent we call that POV-pushing. Rather, we simply look at what the best sources say and summarize their narrative(s). And this blog cannot credibly be asserted to be amongst the "best sources". CIreland (talk) 11:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Again, I ask is that list a neutral presentation of the issue given the sources people have read? This isn't a "narrative we like", it's a sum total descrition of the issue. It's also not weighted so it isn't POV pushing. Just those 16 points, 8 from each view. Does anyone disagree that those are the main points expressed from each side? --DHeyward (talk) 17:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I've seen all those points covered in reliable sources except:

• point 7 of the pro-GG side -I've not seen any mention of double standards nor what the GGs would consider evidence in the articles I've read-,
• and point 6 of the oppose-GG side -I have not heard about that "part taken for the whole" with respect to the journalism profession itself).

Also point pro-7 should say "they 'believe' they have evidence", and points 4,5 of the opponents side should say "'some' gamers".

I think it would be beneficial for the article to ensure that all those points are attributed to the people making them, instead of described in general, and that we make sure that WP:RSOPINION, WP:IMPARTIAL and WP:LABEL are made the core rules of style we use to write each claim. Diego (talk) 17:36, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that while most of the points on both lists are addressed, the amount they are addressed is far in weight of latter (the journalism side), and to try to use this list (even with the two points removed) to try to present an equal balance can't work. Yes, the source attempt as best a level-heading analysis, but as a SPS of a non-notable or someone not established as an expert in the field, this doesn't work for us to start with. That doesn't mean we can't touch on all the points that can be sourced, just don't expect we can do equal balance of the two sides. --MASEM (t) 17:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The point as I see it is not to present an equal balance, is to use the bullets as a checklist to ensure that we have some coverage for each, even if it's minimal; I'd say currently we're missing 'any' mention at all for many points in the pro-GG side, even if they appeared in RSs. A single short mention could be enough to cover several of them at the same time, but it has yet to be added for some. Diego (talk) 17:47, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

If you would like to use this as a guide for your personal approach to the article, feel free, but I think it's unreasonable to expect it to be formally adopted by all editors as some kind of a 'gold standard.' We're not going to include poorly-cited or minority opinions purely because they're on this 'checklist.' "Neutrality" here does not need to mean 'treating all perspectives as equally valid' but 'presenting the issue the way our sources do without injecting our own personal beliefs by giving preference to sources who present the issue the way we want it presented.' -- TaraInDC (talk) 18:33, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I was not thinking "gold standard" as much as "conversation starter". Diego (talk) 20:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Correct. That was my intention. These are major points of contention between both sides. It doesn't minimize the attacks generated by the controversy which have received the bulk of the attention. It does show what a neutral would likely cover as a complete article. --DHeyward (talk) 22:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I think point 6 part taken for the whole has been expressed through adoption of more ethical requirements. Grayson's employer, for example, instituted more disclosure requirements following the disclosure of the relationship - not so much that they characterized Grayson's actions as improper but they also didn't like being blindsided. Also the Google group of professional game journalist also was listed (the list founder issued an apology for an email he wrote where he proposed an open letter supporting Zoe where all the journalists would sign it. This was ultimately rejected on ethics, whence the concerns of the few vs. many ). I have not seen evidence outlined in pro-gg 7.

Just as a quick correction, Grayson's employers did not change their policy as a result of Grayson. The (relatively minor) changes which were made happened because of issues unrelated to Grayson. - Bilby (talk) 23:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that this is a great outline / overview of the situation and should be incorporated into the article if possible. But as it stands, that's not possible. A self-published blog is not a source adequate for citation in a wikipedia entry (much less an entry so contentious as this one). I think a list or table like this would be great for inclusion, and I think this list is accurate, but I don't see how it could be included until the list is cited, used, or a similar list is published/used in a non-self-published news outlet. I disagree with User:NorthBySouthBaranof's claim that his isn't neutral. The article/post is certainly not neutral, but the list itself seems like a neutral and accurate accounting of the two sides. Someone can be on one side or the other, but still be able to produce an accurate description of what each side's view happens to be. Nevertheless, User:NorthBySouthBaranof is right that this list has a bigger problem because of it's origin as a self-published blog post rather than an article from an edited news source. Try and find sources for each claim from different citable sources or maybe a similar list from a citable source, then a list or table containing this overview of the dualing positions would be a great addition to the article. As for: "it is certainly not representative of how the mainstream sources have presented it." That seems like a very troubling view to take, given that one of the central claims for one side of the debate is that they are being shutout and silenced by mainstream sources. Of course, we need to cite mainstream sources for this entry, but the side with the view portrayed by the "most" mainstream sources shouldn't be the only one represented. - Atfyfe (talk) 00:49, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

What you are saying is "very troubling" is expressly what our policy requires. We weight article content based on the predominance of reliable sources, full stop. This is not "bias" - this is fundamental to the concept of Wikipedia as a tertiary-source encyclopedia rather than an alternative media outlet. If a position is not supported by reliable sources, our answer is not "all the sources are biased against that position." Our answer is that our content is based on what reliable sources say. Hence, we have repeatedly removed various claims about the shooting death of Michael Brown, even when there are claims that "media bias" has prevented that information from being published more widely. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

You are misunderstanding my point and I am sorry if I expressed it as a criticism of you (i.e. my use of the term "disturbing"). Of course the claims in the entry need to be backed up by reliable sources. Wikipedia really can't be a place for positions that view all reliable sources as biased and against them (e.g. many conspiracy theories). But my point is that we should be careful about how we treat "the predominance of reliable sources". I mean to point out that a view of this controversy is worthy of inclusion in this entry if it is be backed up by several reliable sources. But this is a weaker standard that requiring a view of this controversy be backed up by "the predominance of reliable sources" before inclusion. When there are conflicting depictions of the controversy, both backed up by reliable sources, we should not and need not just include the depiction of the controversy by "the predominance of reliable sources". We can include both, citing the reliable sources on both sides and note in the article that there are conflicting views of the controversy being reported by reliable sources. I just don't want us to be counting reliable sources to determine which side's view of the controversy shapes the article. We can neutrally include both, if both have sufficient reliable sources. But it's not a numbers game. Right? But since we are just talking in the abstract and not about a specific claim or article, we are probably talking past each other. I am not sure if we'd even disagree about a specific case, I was just reacting to the word "predominate". - Atfyfe (talk) 01:54, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, no. According to policy, it is a numbers game, in a sense, in terms of the weight that we allot to each point of view.

WP:NPOV states Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. ... Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.

It is trivial to demonstrate that far and away the most-discussed aspect of this controversy in reliable sources is the misogynistic harassment that has occurred and which apparently continues. The predominant point of view in reliable sources is that this controversy is an exemplification of long-unresolved issues of misogyny and sexism in gaming — and in American culture as a whole. Accordingly, that must be the predominant viewpoint in our article. That does not mean we exclude other viewpoints; it simply means that they must be subordinate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

NBSB, NPOV requires that controversies are represented by stating which side is which without adopting any of them in Wikipedia's voice (not even the majority one), "the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view", "avoid stating opinions as facts", "prefer nonjudgmental language", "indicate the relative prominence of opposing views". NPOV is more that weight, so please don't ignore the parts of the policy that are inconvenient to you. WEIGHT is definitely not a "number's game"; if it were, the rest of the policy page would be blank, but there are other parts of NPOV that your interpretation ignores and which correspond to what Atfyfe is saying. The number of sources at one side should only affect the amount of content devoted to each point of view, not the way we describe that point of view. Diego (talk) 07:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE: "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements" and "it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view" and "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public". We certainly can (and do) describe majority and minority viewpoints differently. Woodroar (talk) 17:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe, but we don't adopt the majority view in a controversy as ours either, which is what NorthBySouthBaranof is defending; we describe all views in an equally detached and analytic way. And you certainly are not claiming that those defending GamerGate are a fringe view? We have more than enough reliable sources stating that this is not the case. Diego (talk) 10:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Spectator article

Link. The main thrust is that gamers want games to remain apolitical, and that a cabal of cultural Marxists has taken over the video games press. Willhesucceed (talk) 22:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I suspect that any article referring to those with legitimate concerns about the depiction of women in video games as "femnazis" and "cultural marxists", and recommends Milo Yiannopoulos as a good account of the subject, can be discounted as a reliable source on anything other than the author's opinion. - Bilby (talk) 23:01, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The Spectator is a long- and well-established, and respected, magazine. If we're going to use as sources pieces that refer to gamers as bigots, we can use this, too. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

It is an opinion piece, by someone with a highly biased opinion. It can potentially be used as such, but not as anything more. - Bilby (talk) 23:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

In the unlikely event that the Spectator article is used, this rebuttal in the New Statesman may be relevant. - Desine (talk) 10:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

That actually doubles our reasons for including it. Diego (talk) 11:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for including that. I came across it last night but got the impression it was some random blog. Willhesucceed (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Role of misogyny and antifeminism : Forbes/Kain

I see Kain's article is summarised as so under the subsection:

According to Erik Kain, writing at Forbes.com, the #GamerGate movement is driven by an anti-feminist backlash against the increasing diversity of voices involved in cultural criticism of video games. He explains, "What it boils down to is many people feeling upset that the video game space has been so heavily politicized with a left-leaning, feminist-driven slant."

However, Kain concludes in his article:

GamerGate [...] isn’t about feminists or misogynists. It isn’t about any of these things, and it’s about all of them all at once.

In the end, it’s about gamers upset with the status quo and demanding something better. It’s about a group of consumers and enthusiasts not simply feeling that their identity is threatened, but believing that they’re being poorly represented by an industry and press that grow more and more cliquish and remote every year. And it’s about the ad hoc, messy series of uncoordinated events that got us here.

? Willhesucceed (talk) 01:52, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Sources practicing a bit of revisionist history in the face of the many sources that highlight the misogyny and harassment of the affair do not matter. You've been trying to ram this narrative into the article for weeks now, and it just ain't gonna happen. Tarc (talk) 02:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

What does any of what you wrote have to do with the above? Kain's piece would appear to maybe be mischaracterised in the Wikipedia article. I'm bringing it up so we can discuss it. Willhesucceed (talk) 02:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

"GamerGate [...] isn’t about feminists or misogynists" is simply untrue. Tarc (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Alright, somebody else discuss this with me, because Tarc's off in his own world. Is the summary that's attributed to Kain accurate or should it be reworded/clarified somehow, or removed entirely, or what? Willhesucceed (talk) 03:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

As Tarc has pointed out, several weeks of "discussion" with you have shown that your only interest is to misrepresent gamergate as not primarily about sexism and harassment. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Kain also said that GamerGate isn't about conspiracies or ethics, didn't he? He very clearly stated that he believes that Gamergate is driven by anti-feminism. His closing comments don't disagree with that assessment: he states that gamergaters feel their 'identity is being threatened' and that they are not well represented by the industry. Given that he's already made the argument that GamerGate is a backlash against progressive voices in the gaming industry, I think the summary is perfectly apt. And re: your comments about what 'world' Tarc is in, you really should stop attempting to discredit people who disagree with you like this: focus on the discussion, not the participants, please. -- TaraInDC (talk) 04:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

"I think the summary is perfectly apt." Then that's that. Thanks, Tara.

P.S. I posed this question as a result of a query on my Talk page. Thanks for the good faith, folks. Willhesucceed (talk) 04:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I am previously uninvolved in gaming matters and I think Willhesucceed does have some legitimate concerns which I think Tarc and TheRedPenofDoom could have better addressed instead of focusing on whatever narrative Willhesucceed could be trying to ram into the article. Reading Kain's article conclusion, Kain does say that GamerGate isn't about (conspiracies, scandal and corruption, feminists or misogynists) but rather it’s about all of them all at once. My interpretation is that Kain wishes to convey that it's not just about one of these issues, but a combination. Does the current quote used reflect this combination or just anti-feminism? I believe that the most important point in Kain's conclusion is actually [gamers] believing that they’re being poorly represented by an industry and press that grow more and more cliquish and remote every year. This should be reflected somehow too. TaraInDC would you be willing to comment again? starship.paint ~ regal 05:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Sooooo, yeah, Kain is really being misrepresented. I am not sure why people above are getting hung up over whether what Kain says is true or not, since the real issue seems to be that we are twisting his words.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

So does anyone have anything to add? I'd like to get this resolved before the bot archives this thread. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Willhesucceed and The Devil's Advocate, I have edited the article. While I now believe that Kain's views are fairly represented, I am not sure whether the last sentence of Kain's views belongs in the "feminist" section. Perhaps either of you would be better placed to move the last sentence to another section of the article. starship.paint ~ regal 23:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Starship.paint's edits to the page are also heavily misrepresenting Kain's words. He took a statement saying that "it's not about [issues], but then again it is at the same time" to be "it's totally about these issues". He notes the anti-feminism, but then allegedly justifies it at the end. This needs more input from editors other than you three at this point.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong reverted my edit. I'm not sure where I went wrong. #GamerGate isn’t about conspiracies. It isn’t about scandal and corruption. It isn’t about feminists or misogynists. It isn’t about any of these things, and it’s about all of them all at once. So, GamerGate isn't solely about X, Y or Z by themselves, it's about the combination of X, Y, and Z all at once. Also, the justification is entirely Kain's, not mine, when he says that gamers believe that the gaming industry is becoming cliquish and remote. starship.paint ~ regal 02:20, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Ryulong. It is not about any of those things, and yet people keep talking about it. That is what it means. Kirothereaper (talk) 04:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong didn't say that. He said "it's not about [issues], but then again it is at the same time". Essentially, you (Kirothereaper) are saying that it's not about [issues], and yet people keep talking about it. Your conclusion seems rather far-fetched to me. If you maintain your position, this would mean that "it's not about feminists". starship.paint ~ regal 05:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I was heavily paraphrasing the Forbes piece, from which you are pulling a single sentence from the ass end of the article You took

#GamerGate isn’t about conspiracies. It isn’t about scandal and corruption. It isn’t about feminists or misogynists. It isn’t about any of these things, and it’s about all of them all at once.

to say

However, Kain acknowledged that the movement was not solely about feminism, rather, it was about "conspiracies ... scandal and corruption ... feminists or misogynists ... all of them all at once".

I think that's a big stretch and change in voice. ALthough Kain's statement

#GamerGate doesn’t have an end goal. Some are crying for more ethical journalism while embracing completely biased and one-sided coverage of the event so long as it conforms to their own biases. Others simply don’t want to be talked down to by the press, which I think is a reasonable request without a clear solution.

may have some use in the article, or in fact this very talk page.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:14, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, I appreciate the change in your tone regarding my edit. Now, if there is a problem with my paraphrasing of Kain, why can't we just use the direct quote "It isn't about..." then? starship.paint ~ regal 05:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that particular quote has much to add to the article as a whole because it relies on a lot of our own interpretation of what he means. We should strive to use more explicitly stated opinions he holds.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

There are many explicit opinions Kain holds. Why did we take one from the interlude? The bolded parts below were by Kain, not me. Some of them were from the In Sum section as labelled by Kain. starship.paint ~ regal 08:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

... is secondary to one very big fact: Readers have grown deeply distrustful of the gaming press.

First, we have a young, ... male-driven industry on both the producer and consumer side now experiencing growth pains. The media is even younger than the industry itself and it’s experiencing growth pains, too. These growth pains have resulted in some raw, open wounds that fester whenever controversy erupts, and risk being infected further by politicized forces that care less about video games and more about political agendas ...

Second, we have deep mistrust between consumers and the video game industry ... That mistrust is now being cast on the press that’s supposed to be covering the industry to protect the consumer ...

Finally, we have a video game press with a largely left-leaning political bias in some ways alienating itself from much of its readership ...

It’s about a group of consumers and enthusiasts not simply feeling that their identity is threatened, but believing that they’re being poorly represented by an industry and press that grow more and more cliquish and remote every year.

Escapist developer series

The Escapist is posting over the next week or so a series of interviews with developers. I'll update this list as more are published:

• Female game developers on Gamergate

Willhesucceed (talk) 04:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Is there a reason you need to keep maing new threads on each bunk source that you find that will assist your case into changing the topic of this article to not include the issues of sexism and misogyny?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You didn't even read the article, did you? It bolsters the case for sexism and misogyny. Again, thanks for the good faith, folks. Edit: as to your question: I'm posting each source under a new heading 1) because I don't find the sources at the same time; and 2) in order to be discussed. Willhesucceed (talk) 05:31, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It runs into the same problem of being opinion, though. In a sense most pieces are opinion, but that one especially - where the authors are all anonymous developers - is going to be difficult to use. - Bilby (talk) 05:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it's useful as evidence of some developers' opinions? We don't seem to need it at the moment, but who knows where this article/event's going to end up. Willhesucceed (talk) 16:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Sommers reaction articles

Someone keeps reverting my removal of the reaction articles. I wish they would engage with me and explain their reasoning. I've explained mine; reposted from the Archive 5:

I read through the articles again. I really don't see justification for including the Polygon one. Sommers is talking about the criticism leveled at gamers, but [the article] uses Anita's videos about games to criticise Sommers. Moving it to Tropes vs Women or Anita's own page would be better. [...] Kotaku has the better article. I'll see what there is to include from it. [...]

The more I reread that section, the more apparent it becomes that the response articles aren't appropriate to this topic. The only actual criticism in the Kotaku article, which I've included, still focuses on the content of the games, not on gamers. I'd really rather remove it entirely.

It's turned into an edit war. Whoever it is, please explain your reasoning for referencing response articles to Sommers' video. Willhesucceed (talk) 05:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Because it's obviously relevant to this article that's why.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I explain why it's not relevant. You're just asserting that it is. Please explain the reasoning that leads you to conclude they're relevant to this article. Willhesucceed (talk) 05:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It directly concerns this article as it concerns Hoff Sommers' opinion regarding Gamergate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Please address my points. Assertion is not justification. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I've found a better source for us to use.

"Several users note that the question is not whether video games 'make' gamers sexist, but whether they express and maintain a negative portrayal of women, already present and unconsciously accepted."

Now let's please stop warring over the other two articles. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I think this source is a good one, and it makes the point of contention more explicit and clear. I'm fine with the Le Monde source being used there. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Why is Christina Hoff Sommers the only one whose political affiliation is noted on the page? It's also noted incorrectly. She's a democrat with libertarian leanings. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe it's because Hoff Sommers is a highly polarizing semi-anti-feminist figure. Also libertarianism isn't necessarily a political affiliation as much as it is a philosophy.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

There are plenty of other polarising figures mentioned in this article. Their political affiliations are not noted. I'm going to remove "Libertarian" from the description yet again. Please don't revert it. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it's more because she works at a political organization. A politician or someone at a think tank or PAC is generally linked with their political organization or affiliation ("Democratic candidate so-and-so" or "so-and-so of the NRA"), whereas a journalist is linked with their publisher ("so-and-so of MSNBC News"). If a journalist also worked at an organization or served on their board of directors or something, that might be relevant to mention. That's not to say that journalists can't have political beliefs or biases—everyone does, obviously—but in the case of journalists they're not often explicitly mentioned. Woodroar (talk) 22:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I should also mention that, personally, I feel information beyond "so-and-so of organization" is probably unnecessary if that person also has an article and we're linking to it. The article on that person will (or should) go more into their background and beliefs than is appropriate in this article. (We are a wiki, of course!) It seems more factual to present it that way and less apt to draw accusations of a POV. That goes for anti- and pro- positions, of course. Woodroar (talk) 22:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You raise fair points. If someone feels strongly that we should include her political leanings, I'm okay with it, provided that those leanings are described accurately. She's a Democrat with libertarian leanings, as the Kotaku article on her notes.

I do wish whoever has been so contentious with me re: Sommers would deign to discuss her paragraph with me. Willhesucceed (talk) 22:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Willhesucceed, you don't have consensus to remove "libertarian" from the article because you've been reverted multiple times by multiple editors other than myself (why else does it keep getting added back), so don't remove it, again.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

She's not a libertarian. You can't just put whatever you want in the article. I'm changing it to "Democrat"; we have a source on that. If we're going to put politics in the page, at least we can do so accurately. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Well now someone (not me) has removed "Libertarian", so I'll leave it be. If you want to put her political affiliation in, fine by me, provided it's "Democrat", or "Democrat with libertarian leanings", because that's what she is. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I removed both 'libertarian' and 'feminist;' I think we should probably include either both or neither as the connotations of just one or the other are going to give a skewed image of who Hoff Sommors is. She and The Fine Young Capitalists are the only ones the article was taking the time to label as 'feminist,' anyway. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Tara. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

There's a massive problem here that Willhesucceed keeps adding the fact that she is a democrat to the section because it mentions that she is libertarian. What party she is a registered voter for is irrelevant to her stance on feminism or whatever. I've removed it, the fact that she is a libertarian, and the fact that AEI is a conservative group from the article. People can read about that on the other respective pages. What matters here is her opinion on what happened. Not what happens when she goes to the polling station in November.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ello blocking "hoax"

[1]. I don't think this is significant to include as prose since it was proven a hoax, but I do think it might be good as a footnote on the part about where censorship on some sites were brought up, to note that the Ello social network was changed with blocking GG posts, but affirmed by its creators that they don't have the capacity to do so yet, just in case someone came looking for that here. Opinions? --MASEM (t) 15:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Can't help feeling this puts us on the road to including ComicGate, which is literally about butts. Artw (talk) 15:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I've been putting together the "Gamers' concerns" subsection and there are enough sources that note censorship that this article isn't needed. Willhesucceed (talk) 16:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Incredible bias

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This article is poorly written and incredibly biased, with gems such as "That said, the harassment and misogyny associated with GamerGate is seen as having poisoned the well,[8][9][12] and the choice to focus the campaign on a heretofore relatively obscure independent developer rather than AAA publishers has led to questions about its motivations.[11]" and its focus on Quinn who seems to be barely related to the subject anymore. Im just wondering if some of the editors here have an agenda? — Preceding unsigned comment added by EEEEEE1 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jimmy Wales on GamerGate

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Jimmy Wales are going to clean this mess up, and i agree with him. This whole thing has been a full-blown war where four-five people have had the direction of this article and bombarded any opponent. I also need to back down and will not engange anymore in this topic, but other users like Ryulong, Tarc, NorthBySouthBaranof and TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom needs to step down now. I hope you people realise this also and step down with dignity and not fight this to the end. As long as especially Tarc and Ryulong are here, this article will never be neutral. https://storify.com/nathanblack/jimmy-wales-on-how-wikipedia-will-handle-gamergate --Torga (talk) 20:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Realize that while his opinion is important, that unless it is an WMF action, all he can offer is advice that then WP administrators can decide to act on. Jimmy has no special power as an editor otherwise. Mind you, his opinion and suggestions will be important to hear and potentially provide ways to go forward. --MASEM (t) 20:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Stop bitching about neutrality because things aren't going the way of the gater. Jimbo's statements are vague as hell and only seem to have been made to quell the amount of abuse being sent to OTRS over this page because of people like you who think that "neutral" means "stop talking about the harassment campaign". Not to mention I've limited most of my actions on this article to the talk page and addressing the people who should rightly be banned from this article due to their constant expousing of a single point of view that Wikipedia cannot cover because it is not addressed by reliable sources. The most I've done on the article itself is the TFYC section (which has gone through countless revisions) and minor text markup. The only thing I'm guilty of is being sick and tired of seeing the same points be brought up constantly by people who have either just made an account to complain or have been pushing for their contribution to be made to the article day after day despite the fact that there is no one that agrees with them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You need a break from this, so do i and so do Tarc and many others. Please do not try to justify your behaviour here. I hope that there will be a purge here, because some of you have been fanatical pushing your views.--Torga (talk) 20:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't pushed shit on this page. The only thing that's being pushed here is everyone's buttons because every day there's someone else coming along to say "this page is biased because it has the word 'misogyny' in the lead and it's not solely about the fact we think that Zoe Quinn fucked someone to get a good review", like you attempted to do last week. I contribute to dozens of other articles on this project. You, Torga, have done nothing here other than contribute to this page because when the shit hit the fan and there was a thread on Reddit calling out for people with existing accounts on Wikipedia to get the Gamergate page skewed in their favor, you answered that clarion call (you had one edit way back in 2008, then on September 7 you made 9 more edits to be autoconfirmed and then you stepped into this quagmire). You haven't been involved in some of the worse aspects on this page that have forced it to be constantly expunged of material that could get Wikipedia sued by the living subjects of this debacle, but you are only here because you are, as defined by Luke McKinney for Cracked, a gater.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Please stop trying to doxx me. It does not help your cause. --Torga (talk) 21:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

How the fuck is anything I've said about you doxxing? It's just me saying that you are what we call on Wikipedia a WP:Single purpose account.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you just up and exposed your self Ryūlóng. I doubt it's even allowed to outright slander a user because you disagree with them.Derpen (talk) 21:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

What "slander"? I'm pointing out the clear facts about his account and yours frankly, too. I can see several of your edits to this page have been expunged for violating WP:BLP—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure, its not like a have a different account on a non-english wikipedia with several hundred edits, from before the time with joint accounts between the different national sites. And its not like it is the first time you have worked hard to throw out people from the page that you do not agree with. F.ex Theplatiniumdragon. --Torga (talk) 21:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I had zero involvement in Titanium Dragon's ban from this page. He was banned because he kept making allegations about a living person without having anything to back up those allegations. And which project did you contribute to because I can only see 4 edits by a User:Torga at the Norwegian Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Please stop doxxing me. I am not gonna give you my account name. --Torga (talk) 21:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

This is not doxxing you. Anyone can see what you've done. So put up or shut up.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Argumentum_ad_Jimbonem : is this relevant in this case, or am I just confused? Bosstopher (talk) 20:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It is relevant.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith on a side note this also seems to be relevant because both of you are making accusations about eachother that you have no definitive proof for. [On a side-side note am I assuming bad faith by assuming that you are both assuming bad faith?] Bosstopher (talk) 21:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You can only assume so much good faith in someone when there's all the evidence mounting up against them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of which...Derpen (talk) 21:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree..... --Torga (talk) 21:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You two should get off of your high horse that defecates in real time.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:21, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

'"What "slander"?"' Yup, no slander here. Definitely no abuse of a user whatsoever.Derpen (talk) 21:23, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The account "Derpen" has made zero edits to Wikipedia outside of this talk page so that qualifies as being a single purpose account. That is not "slander".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

If you think you should step back from this page, Torga, you are free to do so. But it seems that you are calling for several longtime, active Wikipedians who are attempting to keep this article free of BLP violations to 'step down' while ignoring many obvious single purpose accounts who have been very actively pushing their POV here. If Jimbo or some other uninvolved party decides to ask specific editors to step back, so be it, but please don't presume to do so yourself. -- TaraInDC (talk) 21:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A call for [Wiki]love? [Please feel free to revert this if you think it counts as an unnecessary continuation of the previous conversation]

Reading the talk page and edit comments for this article make it seem like everyone's one revert away from beating the crap out of each other. Can't we all just learn to love each other and get along? I like to think that the reason everyone on this article is so angry is because they automatically assume that the other side is part of a conspiracy and they are protecting what is right. For instance Torga and co. are assuming Ryulong and Tarc are reverting their edits out of malice and a desire to hide the truth, when it's just because they have a better knowledge of BLP Policy. While Ryulong has automatically assumed in a few cases that everything the "other camp" have been doing is for the purpose of glorifying GamerGate, the conversation about the Escapist article above being a good example. (Can anyone who feels they've been misrepresented here, please correct me) As a great poet once said "Everybody makes mistakes, Everybody has those days". None of you are going to convince the people you're arguing with by raising accusations against them. Love and understanding is what will save us all [from needless rage induced stress]! Bosstopher (talk) 21:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I agree, but I do say we may need to possibly assign new moderators to replace others who have shown *ahem* their true colors.Derpen (talk) 21:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Enough of this bullshit.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Why do you remark a call to full neutrality "bullshit"?Derpen (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You can't say your agree, and then contradict yourself in the second clause of the same sentence. Please don't raise my hopes up then quickly bring them crashing down like that. Also correct me if I'm wrong but "assigning new moderators" isn't an actual thing. Also is there anyway to put forward a proposal or at least a gentleman's agreement to stop swearing on this talk page. It just seems to raise the tension levels a lot. Sorry if I'm being too much of a Puritan Bosstopher (talk) 22:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm calling your (Derpen) comment bullshit because it's an unnecessary dig at me because I've spent the past few hours saying how you're not here to contribute to the project constructively but instead push a POV on this article.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's be civil here. I've noted that much of you activity can be considered anything but saint-like, nor up to what neutral would be considered, but that is quite beside the point. The problem is the constant fighting going on in this talk page between user and moderator over what is what and why it is, which will never get anybody anywhere with this article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Derpen (talk • contribs)

While I am an avid gamer, I have hardly edited anywhere in the gaming topic area in all the years I have been here. My interest in this article and related ones is seeing that WP:BLP policy is upheld. We're not a tabloid, not a blog, not a youtube channel. There are lots of people out there with lots of opinions in "gamergate"; very few of them actually matter in terms of trying to write an encyclopedic entry about the subject. Tarc (talk) 21:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe this applies to both sides. As I've seen, many articles cited here automatically jump to conclusions that all GamerGate is about is a harassing movement against women, but when going to it's "front-lines" (twitter) you can see it is quite the opposite. So either one side is pulling a ruse, or there's a serious problem here.Derpen (talk) 22:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Read the FAQ Bosstopher (talk) 22:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, I must have forgotten the constraints withing the rules. Though I do see that even the "most reliable" of sources cannot be sparred from the sin of bias. Now assuming GamerGate was never covered by any "reliable source", I don't know if this article would even exist under the current dictations presented. But I believe the rules are the rules.Derpen (talk) 22:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You need to be reminded that the article is about the harassment of women done under the guise of Gamergate, which gained more press, as well as the fact that those under the #gamergate umbrella want better coverage. You just want no mention of the harassment. As does every Tom, Dick, and Jack (not Jane though afaik) who has come here to say the exact same thing that there's a bias because the page does not exactly say what you want it to.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Well, let us first look at how things are being handled between moderator and user.Derpen (talk) 22:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

There are no 'mods' on Wikipedia. Admins do not fill the same role here that mods do on discussion forums. -- TaraInDC (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. This isn't Reddit or 4chan.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

What I mean is the Administration and the people who suggests sources and additions to the articles. There appears tobe a gap between them in terms of agreement.Derpen (talk) 22:47, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

No there isn't. There are people who keep suggesting bad sources because they don't fit the requirements set out by years of standing decision on this website.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Original research

In this reversion, editor User:Masem has restored the claim of there being "long-standing misogyny" in the gamer community.

I have repeatedly requested a source be added for this claim.

I demonstrated in Talk:Gamergate_controversy/Archive_4#Misogyny removal that the first 5 articles cited as references for the introductory sentence do NOT make any such claim of misogyny being a long-standing issues of gamer communities.

Since then a sixth has been added from LA Times which only mentions the issue once:

"the ugly reaction has instead exposed the rage and rampant misogyny that lies beneath the surface of an industry that’s still struggling to mature."

This statement is in present-tense, so Todd Martens is only talking about misogyny being present in the present day (not commenting on long-standing issue) and in the industry (not in gamer culture).

So we are still waiting on a reference that indicates this to be long-standing.

The references only mention that misogyny is an issue being discussed in relation to this controversy, not that it is long-standing in gamer communities.

I would like if a moderator could resolve this problem.

For editors to merely think that misogyny is long-standing is not enough, to add that claim without a source is editors here adding in their opinion as some kind of original research. Ranze (talk) 00:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

rampant - "happening a lot or becoming worse, usually in a way that is out of control". That's not a word to describe something that is merely recent, but rather something that has been building over time. Tarc (talk) 00:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@Ranze: perhaps you did not see my reply there, but I did state that several of the sources point to it being a long-standing issue, and I went into why some sources on video games may not use terms like "long-standing". Of course, you were not obligated to reply to me—we're all volunteers here, after all—but saying that you "repeatedly requested a source" insinuates that nobody is replying to you, which is not true at all. Woodroar (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I gave several sources in that discussion that make it clear that misogyny was not something "new" by Gamergate. Per BBC: "She has been subject to misogynist abuse before, most notably in 2012 when a first-person game was published online entitled: Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian." showing at least 2012 (Which for this industry is a long time ago). There are at least two sources dating from last year that point to GDC talks that discuss the issue of misogyny in the industry. It is not original research. --MASEM (t) 01:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Two years isn't long. The industry's been around for three, going on four, decades. As far as I can recall, the issue of misogyny/anti-feminism has only become a talking point in the past five or so years. If we could find sources that address it at least that far back, that would be great. Willhesucceed (talk) 01:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The GDC talks are backwards-looking pieces that clearly show more than a few years of sexism and misogyny in the industry (and that itself within just the field of the developers and games they made, not even consider the player base). --MASEM (t) 02:39, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Would you link to them here, please? Willhesucceed (talk) 02:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I mentioned that the sources detail misogyny going to 2005 (and likely further) in the very discussion Ranze linked above. Please understand I'm not trying to be a DICK here, but these sources and statements have been asked for and delivered many times. I understand that you sometimes feel attacked, and I truly am sorry if I've played any part in that, but part of the reason some editors are brusque is because they're being asked to spoon feed answers when those answers are littering the archives. Woodroar (talk) 02:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, and sorry, I just spent hours putting together a new section, so I'm a little out of it. Willhesucceed (talk) 04:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

No worries. Cheers! Woodroar (talk) 04:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc:: I do not believe 1 author calling something 'rampant' means that something is long-standing. Something can 'happen a lot' or 'become worse' while still being a recent rather than long-standing issue. All that is required for something to become worse or happen a lot is for it to exist for SOME duration (which all issues due) not that this duration be a long one. Ranze (talk) 04:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's nice for you, but both the dictionary sand the sources disagree. The wording will remain as-is. Tarc (talk) 13:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@Woodroar:: The question is WHICH sources. If the 'several sources' you refer to are among the first six, I believe which portions support the 'longstanding issue' claim should be explained. If the ones you refer to are not linked to in the first sentence, then please introduce them so that we can link them there. If you reread the archived, section, I did reply to you at 20:57, 21 September, explaining the problem with your analysis. You only pointed out that the articles mention 'misogyny', you did not provide any evidence of them establishing it as a long-standing issue. I am not looking for the exact term, the meaning conveyed through synonymous phrase is fine too, but that wasn't present. When I say I requested a source, it insinuates I did not get a source, not that I did not get replies. I got replies, but the "sources" provided did not actually support the OR that misogyny is 'long-standing'. Ranze (talk) 04:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@Masem::

1. As WHS has pointed out, something occuring in 2012 does not make it a "long-standing issue". Video games have been around since 1947s, 2 years is only 3% of 67 years.
2. A single woman being subject to allegedly misogynistic abuse does not make it a notable element of "gamer culture". If it were, we'd see a misogyny in gaming article.
3. It's also worth considering whether Kevin Rawlinson's evaluation of "beat-up-Anita" being misogynistic is a reliable conclusion. If a BBC writer had said that "stomp Obama" was misandric, should Wikipedia repeat that as truth? In cases of reporters taking huge leaps in interpretation I think we ought to present it as that one reporter's opinion unless there's an overwhelming consensus among multiple ones as to that conclusion.
4. Assuming the GDC talks you refer to are the Game Developers Conference, your commentary on them is not relevant to the article, and is what I mean by original research biasing the introductory statement. If you believe that the GDC talks exhibit long-standing misogyny in gamer culture then surely an article written about them. Since these have been going on since 1988, surely if these are backwards-looking then newspaper articles from the 90s (or even pre-2010) ought to be littered with "misogyny" accusations. Ranze (talk) 04:46, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

2012 is "ancient" for the video game industry; something that has persisted since then will be considered a long-standing issue. The reason that we don't have misogyny in gaming is because it wasn't a notable topic until Gamergate happened, but it has been known. The GDC talks are well documented elsewhere, establishing it has been a problem in the industry for a while. And documentation from 2013, 2012, 2012, 2011, 2011, 2009, etc. It's been there. --MASEM (t) 06:07, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@Willhesucceed:: I see no need for you to apologize to Woodroar, although WR allegedly "mentioned that the sources detail misogyny going to 2005", the WR statement "The Daily Dot ref links to another Daily Dot article on misogyny going back to 2005" is not a helpful one. The Daily Dot ref in question, when it does mention misogyny, does NOT link to an article, but rather to a TAG called "sexism in gaming". As the string "2005" does not appear when I search the DD ref, it is not clear what hypothetical 2005 article WR is referencing. If such an article exists, I request that Woodroar link to it directly, because THAT (supposing it is valid, which we should discuss first) is what we ought to link here as a reference. Linking to an article that links to a different article which supports something is not how referencing works. Ranze (talk) 04:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

If it's described as a "long-standing issue" in the sources, or having had a history, then we describe it as such, as well. It's not just Zoe Quinn. Anita Sarkeesian was abused. Brianna Wu recalls that she suffered from sexist abuse, among others she spoke to in this piece she wrote. "Beat Up Anita" is misogynistic because the only reason people are mad at her is because she is a feminist and a woman. People wouldn't make a hypothetical "Stomp Obama" game because they systematically hate men (it would probably instead be described as racist). And simply because you can't find something in a tagging system does not mean that it has not existed.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that a source has yet to be introduced which describes misogyny as a long-standing issue. Your analysis on ZQ+AS+BW is original research Ryu, as is your providing an analysis of BUA being misogynistic (she has characteristics besides being female or feminist, you do not know which motivated the BUA designer). Please provide a reference which interprets these recent allegations as making misogyny constitute a 'long-standing issue' in gamer culture. I would suggest "recent issues" being applied to misogyny, as that is all the references listed has established so far. Ryu the burden is on claimants to directly link to an article. Merely linking to a tag about "sexism" and demanding critics to "find the long-standing misogyny proof" is not how sourcing works here. Tags are not references, pages are. Ranze (talk) 05:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

All of these women have said that they received threats and sexist harassment and you are calling my descriptions of these things as original research? On the talk page? If the media and the people being attacked describe these things as misogynistic or sexist that is how we report on it on Wikipedia. And I don't know if there's a single thing on the article about a tag on a website that you're going on about. I cannot even begin to understand your complaints at this point.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:06, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, the question is whether there's a source that says "long-standing" or something similar. Willhesucceed (talk) 11:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The August 20, 2014 Daily Dot article links to a December 18, 2012 Daily Dot article (search for "have endured" in the first Daily Dot article, you'll find the link there). In addition to detailing a number of incidents from that year, that 2012 Daily Dot article mentions the Dickwolves controversy from 2010 and an essay from 2005 (search for "Dickwolves incident" and "argued in 2005"). I also feel that the statement in the Forbes article about the "young industry that began, like so many others, as a male-driven industry on both the producer and consumer side now experiencing growth pains" insinuates that this is an old issue, but I recognize that this wouldn't stand up in a court of law. Cheers! Woodroar (talk) 05:09, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

An industry being male-driven does not equate to the industry being sexist, much less misogynistic, so that Forbes excerpt is irrelevant. Thank you for providing direct link to the earlier 2012 DD article and where it was linked from. Keeping in mind that the full phrase is "endured in recent years" the 'recent' adjective does not paint something as a long-standing issue, instead it is referring to these 2012 events as recent, lumping them in with the 2014 ones as current events, not distant history, which is what 'longstanding' conveys. The article in question uses 'misogyny' in this singular context outside of the main title:

The Daily Dot has spent a considerable amount of time this year reporting incidents of sexism, misogyny, and attacks on women that have occurred throughout the gaming and comics industries this year.

By saying 'this year' (which the 2014 article explains to us is 'recent') the 2012 article is NOT talking about long-standing issues, but still-current ones. So the 2012 article does not paint this as a long-standing issue, however you have provided more things to look at.

You mention the reaction to a 2010 webcomic. The 2012 article says "major blowups like the 2010 Dickwolves incident". However it does not say that this is a "misogynism" related blow-up, just that it is a blow-up that geeks have seen. Mentioning that a misogynism-related incident is a 'geek blowup' does not mean that other examples of geek-blowups mentioned are being called misogynistic in nature. When I look at the article section you link to, the term misogyny is not mentioned in any way on the Penny Arcade article, so where is this association established?

You mention a 2005 essay, specifically the 2012 article quote referencing this is:

Gillam argued in 2005 that within gaming fandom, “true gender equality is actually perceived [by male gamers] as inequality.”

Issues of gender-equality are sexism issues, but not necessarily misogyny issues. Even if 2005 were considered long-standing (9 years is <14% of 67 years) that would only support stating that sexism is long-standing in gaming, not misogyny. Misogyny is a more extreme form of sexism specifically pertaining to women and hating them, and gender inequality does not inherently mean hating women.

The phrase "argued in 2005" links to http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp181.htm where I looked for the string "miso" and hate/hatred/hating and got no results. Where in this "Fanfic Symoposium" does Gillam discuss hatred of women being a long-standing issue? Ranze (talk) 05:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

If you're looking for further back, we've got "An Examination of Violence and Gender Role Portrayals in Video Games: Implications for Gender Socialization and Aggressive Behavior", a journal article from 1998 which is referenced in our own article on misogyny and mass media. And there's "Dangerous Relationships: Pornography, Misogyny and Rape" and "Game On, Hollywood!: Essays on the Intersection of Video Games and Cinema", which both discuss the misogyny and sexualized violence against women in 1982's Custer's Revenge. Woodroar (talk) 05:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd add to that list Delamere, Fern M. ; Shaw, Susan M. (2008) '“They see it as a guy's game”: The politics of gender in digital games', Leisure/Loisir, 32:2, 279-302, DOI: 10.1080/14927713.2008.9651411. Although published in 2008, the authors highlight as an example of the treatment of women an event at a gaming tournament in 2003, which is going back 11 years. - Bilby (talk) 15:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: regarding your revert, the issue here is not whether or not sources mention "misogyny". If you pay attention to my edit, I did not remove the term, I changed the phrasing. The issue is that the sources do not call misogyny a long-standing issue in gaming culture, this is original research by Wikipedians so far unsupported by references. Please undo your revert and restore my phrasing, your edit summary does not match up with your edit. Ranze (talk) 05:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

You were given references that supported it and ignored them on your own claims. That's edit warring. Again, in the video game industry, "long-standing" is something that may have persisted for only for a few years because this industry moves fast, so a year is a heck of a lot of time. Remember, the other factor here is the rise of social media that actually shows that misogyny that would otherwise not be obvious to see unless you could also see gamer feedback, and that didn't happen until after 2000. --MASEM (t) 06:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I looked through the links in the old discussion, and the links in this one. Ranze has a point. None of the following sources mentioned support "long-standing": Daily Dot, Daily Dot, (in fact, the earliest mention of "sexism in gaming" at Daily Dot is 2012 as per http://www.dailydot.com/tags/sexism-in-gaming/), Al Jazeera, Telegraph, Wired, LA Times, BBC, RPS, CBC, Eurogamer, Cinema Blend, Daily Dot, Forbes, Trickster (which talks about perceptions of equality, another topic altogether), Polygon. In fact, many of them support the idea that misogyny is a recent phenomenon, because they use phrases like "this year", "recently", etc.

This paper talks about gender roles and violence, not misogyny. This book appears to be about pornography, not video games. Custer's Revenge is claimed to produce "misogynistic pleasure" here, but as far as I can see it claims only that certain adults would enjoy the game, not that misogyny is pervasive in the industry or the audience.

I can't access this link for some reason, but from the title it would appear to only focus on D&D.

The only articles linked that do support "long-standing" is this one by Kotaku, which quotes another article referring to misogyny as "established" in just one sentence and this Venturebeat article. Considering the other sources which outright state it's a recent phenomenon, I'd say that's not enough.

Someone correct me if I've missed something. Willhesucceed (talk) 11:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, some editors here seem to be conflating the topics of equality, sexism, and misogyny, but these are three quite distinct things, each with distinct concerns. Willhesucceed (talk) 13:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Sexism and misogyny are nearly paired up in all sources that talk about how the issue has been around for many years; equality not so much nor is that really an issue here. Keep in mind there are several goggle book hits that are very relevant too (there's one "From Barbie to Mortal Kombat: Gender and computer games" that comes up a few tmes, for example, from 1998). Basically, if you're looking for a source for the exact claim "long-standing issue of misogyny", we're not likely going to get that, but we are going to get plenty that show misogyny is suddenly not a new issue due to the harassment from GG. Also keep in mind: this is misogyny throughout the industy, including that charge against developers (eg like the Custard's Last Stand game, above). We're just all now well more aware of the issues and where the actual vectors of sexism and misogyny arise from. --MASEM (t) 14:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Would you mind linking those books? We can use them as sources to confirm whether or not it's a long-standing issue. Considering how important this topic apparently is, there should be someone somewhere laying out how the industry and the audience have been misogynistic throughout their existence.

I understand that many sources in the past year or two have paired up sexism and misogyny, but they really are two separate things, so unless we have a reliable source that claims actual long-standing misogyny, i.e. hatred of women, it should be referred to as sexism, if there is indeed a source saying there's long-standing sexism. Just because current sources use the two words interchangeably doesn't mean Wikipedia should.

And finally, we shouldn't use "long-standing" without reliable sources to back it up because it would be prejudicial. Willhesucceed (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

since we do have multiple reliable sources, please move on to something appropriate. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Show me these sources. Willhesucceed (talk) 17:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Gamergate_controversy#References take your pick. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

And which source of those "directly supports" the wording in the current lead? How long is long-standing? If that description is verifiable, it should be possible to quote it for what they mean exactly, right? So how much is long-standing, two years? Ten? 30? Diego (talk) 10:15, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Numerous sources have been listed before. You're complaining that the word "long-term issues of misogyny" can't be found in a source, but the fact that there is a easily-found history of misogyny in the video game field dating to at least the 1990s means, by common sense it is a long-term issue. Racism is clearly a long-term issue in the United States, but you'd probably have a hard time finding a source in the present that makes that statement becuase it is patently obvious. Same concept here. --MASEM (t) 18:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Since it's easily found, we should be able to have some sources to hand, no? Two or three that point to misogyny in the industry/audience as prevalent more than two or three years ago? It's absurd that on the one hand you claim there's all this long-standing misogyny, but on the other hand that no one has discussed it. Willhesucceed (talk) 22:46, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

You're trying to find a seminal piece about misogyny in video games that no one has specifically written yet, though there is plenty of evidence that misogyny in video games exists as highlighted at several points in the history of the industry since at least the 90s. Most of the sources on the GG do not say explicitly "a long history of misogyny" but clearly imply that it is there. There is zero original research here. --MASEM (t) 22:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

No, all I'm asking for is a handful of sources spread throughout a decade or two that state that there's widespread misogyny in gaming. That no one is able to provide this is both amusing and bemusing. Now I'm done with this topic. Willhesucceed (talk) 04:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Which have been provided (we have some from the 1990s). --MASEM (t) 14:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Masem, then WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE. If the words "long-term issues of misogyny" can't be found in a source, we don't use them, we use the words that the sources have used; and if no reliable source has adopted that view, we don't do it either. Several people have been accused at this talk page of introducing sources to push a narrative, and now we see exactly the same for those writing the lead from sentences that "can be inferred" or something "the sources imply", which is explicitly forbidden. If original research is unacceptable, it's unacceptable for everybody. The lead as it stands now could be very well removed for failing WP:V and couldn't be restored per WP:BURDEN - someone reliable needs to make the connection between the different sources presented here if you want to say something about all them in general. That's policy, you mean you suddenly don't agree with that? Diego (talk) 09:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

However, if you read the sources from GG coverage of today, it is readily clear this has been a long-standing problem. No one uses the explicit language, but it is well-established just reading the narratives that sexism and misogyny in video games has been there, this was the event that flamed it to the forefront. The press clearly makes the assumption that the reader is aware these exists. We have plenty of sources to show sexism and misogyny tied to video games from the 1990s. It is, for anyone in the industry, a patently obvious statement. Note: importantly, the statement that WP makes is not saying that gamers have been sexist and misogynist for a long time (which would be a statement that as potentially insulting would need to be sources), but that sexism and misogyny have persisted in the industry as a whole for some time, including on developers and the like, that no side of the issue is immune to these issues. --MASEM (t) 14:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

As a possible intermediate solution, one option might be to replace "long-standing" with "pre-existing". It is important to state that GG did not create these issues, but as there is concern about how long they have been around, stating "pre-existing" avoids that issue, and that's clearly established in sources. --MASEM (t) 15:30, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion: Focus on Ongoing Controversy, not it's Origin or History

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In the introduction to this article it devotes a lot of space to the origins of the controversy (e.g. Quinn). Why not cut the history of the controversy out of the introduction and isolate it to a sub-section concerning GG's history/origins? The introduction is way too long, and focusing on the controversy itself rather than it's origins would help cull the intro. Also, focusing on the debate itself rather than the events leading up to it seems to make more sense for its own sake. What is the controversy about? Who are the two sides (gamers, game journalists, cultural critics, etc.)? What are their conflicting views? How/where is this controversy playing out (e.g. twitter, gaming media)? The history/origin of the controversy seems like a sub-section topic rather than a 'most of the intro' topic. Just a suggestion. I just found it odd how much the history of the controversy is being relied upon to describe the controversy rather than a focus on what the controversy itself concerns. - Atfyfe (talk) 01:20, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The whole reason Gamergate happened was long-stnading issued in the community and thus the history and origin has to be documented. Those need to be covered. There is actually very little else "happening" after the initial ~2 week period of harassment, followed by lots of media coverage, so there's almost nothing else beyond understanding why this flameout happened and , so far, the few attempts to try to avoid repeating it. --MASEM (t) 01:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course those need to be covered. I am just suggesting that they don't need to be the focus of the article. However, I take your point that there might not be much to focus on other than how the controversy came about. I am just stopping by this entry to offer some suggestions tonight since I know this entry has been having trouble. - Atfyfe (talk) 01:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The articles pends a paragraph giving background information. I don't see how that's a "focus".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I think as it is there's six paragraphs about Quinn's harassment in the beginning. Though I think it's important, six paragraphs is more than we have for any other singular topic, making it seem as if the GamerGate controversy is entirely about Quinn specifically. Anyways, I think mention of 'result' should go after 'overview.' EvilConker (talk) 15:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New section, "Gamers' concerns"

Below is a rough outline. Refer to my sandbox for more sources; I'm not sure they're entirely properly categorised because I was skimming towards the end, but I think there are enough sources discussing the points mentioned below, or some variation thereof, that a new section is warranted. I'd appreciate your help in improving this so it becomes fit to go in the article proper.

Gamers' concerns

Under Gamergate, gamers have raised concerns about the video game industry.z Among them is worry that the video games industry is unethical, which worry stems from the close relationship that video games developers and video games journalists have.abc Opportunists are seen to have usurped the press with a view to pushing a political agenda,de which is seen to have given rise to an attendant mischaracterisation of gamers as unwelcoming and bigoted.efd This is understood to have further contributed to the enthusiast press's long-standing mistreatment of its consumers, which gamers believe vilifies and abuses the consumers it should be championing.gdh Although the video games press has long been seen as self-serving, its politicisation is suspected to have even further discouraged covering both sides of contentious stories such as Gamergate.idb Gamers were also concerned that discussion of controversial issues is difficult because online fora, such as video games publications' online comment sections and social networks, largely prohibit such.jhf

Please understand that this section is supposed to discuss what gamers see as the issues, regardless of their merit. The merit is discussed in what will be the proceeding section, "Legitimacy of concerns". Willhesucceed (talk) 03:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The "ethics" angle is give all the weight that it deserves in the article as it presently stands. Tarc (talk) 03:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Did you see all the sources? To one degree or another, they've all mentioned other issues. Willhesucceed (talk) 03:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

And many more highlight the misogynistic harassment. You and the other pile of single-purpose-accounts simply aren't going to get your way here. The narrative of "gamergate" is that a jilted lover slut-shames his ex, and a pile of anonymous minions pile on, using their pre-existing beefs regarding "ethics in gamer journalism" as a pretense. Tarc (talk) 03:16, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Whatever you think of the concerns, they should at least be represented in the article if they're noteworthy. I've provided the sources. They've been discussed plenty, so they deserve mention. This is, after all, an encyclopaedia. Willhesucceed (talk) 03:19, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we weave any of this into the 'legitimacy of concerns' section? -- TaraInDC (talk) 03:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

That's an option, I guess. I suggested a new section a few days ago, which is why I'm proposing it as separate, but I can't think of any reason not to include this under "legitimacy of concerns". The section may need to be renamed, though, since many of these concerns haven't really been addressed other than to note that they exist. Willhesucceed (talk) 03:31, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Some of this is a bit of excess reading of the sources (eg the complaints about forums), but I also believe most of the valid concerns are already incorporated into the article, just not in one single para. --MASEM (t) 03:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that. I agree the scope of the wording's too big. Maybe this doesn't belong among the list of concerns but somewhere else in the article? Willhesucceed (talk) 03:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we can, about those forum points, I'm just not seeing that supported in the sources. The censorship that happened at the start of GG, that's documented and included due to the Streisand effect, but I'm not seeing enough to talk about limits on forums for gamers to discuss issues. --MASEM (t) 03:46, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm seeing a lot of disparaging language being used here that the sources aren't backing up at all: "opportunists", "vilifies", "abuses", and "self-serving" aren't to be found anywhere in these sources. The only use of "politicization" was a quotation from a 4chan member. Woodroar (talk) 04:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that this is a step in the right direction, especially regarding having a section for gamers' concerns. The titling of Legitimacy of concerns is vague as to whose concerns. We can work together to iron out the language issues. Additionally, I also feel that the titling of Social media campaign and backlash is vague too. Whose campaign? Whose backlash? Is it the gamers? If so, what is the point of the last paragraph in the section? starship.paint ~ regal 04:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The disparaging language is echoing this TechCrunch article, which is where I got the idea for the section, but feel free to moderate the language. Willhesucceed (talk) 04:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The information is already located throughout the article. Although it may be of use to conglomerate the statements into a single section so as to get Reddit and 4chan off of our backs. I just don't think that the proposed wording here is particularly good.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Reading through the article again, I see your point. Some things need inclusion or fleshing out under "Social media campaign ..." and "legitimacy of concerns", however. Well, now I feel stupid. Willhesucceed (talk) 11:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

A misplaced paragraph

I feel that the last paragraph in Social media campaign and backlash starting with Non-gaming media attention has ... until protections against threats and abuse. is misplaced. It talks about a) sexism in games and b) the harassment campaign, some of which was directed at Frank. Should part a) be directed to Role of misogyny and antifeminism and part b) to Allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment? starship.paint ~ regal 05:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that the article is attempting to be both chronological and topical. Perhaps a discussion of how to organise the article is in order. Willhesucceed (talk) 12:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Willhesucceed, I am afraid there are already too many discussions here ... compared to the progress. I'm going to be bold on this. starship.paint ~ regal 14:19, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Organization Suggestion

First off I love what's happened with the article. It feels it's a lot more neutral, there's little to no 'biased' language now, however, I still think we're not addressing a general structure:

When you come to a GamerGate thread, you want to know WHAT is it. WHY it's happening. HOW it's impacted the industry.

Currently it's: WHAT is it (overview) HOW it's impacted the industry. HOW it's happening.

So here are my suggestions.

We need structure, so here's the format I'm suggesting, as for every argument it should go:

Extended content

////// Background Argument Counter-Argument Results ////// Background (mostly okay right now) GamerGate Campaign (cover origins in reddit, 4chan, etc. and how the Twitter hashtag exploded and what their concerns are, this can HAVE allegations against Quinn contained in it, but only the allegations for now, we NEED to set the stage of the argument FIRST) Major Events: (each is a sub-category) -The Zoe Post (WHAT it is) -Fine Young Capitalists (WHAT it is) -"Gamers are Dead" Posts (WHAT it is) -JournoListPro's (WHAT it is) We need to keep these fact based and neutral. Do not assume guilt. Backlash (HOW it's impacted the industry): (each is a sub-category) -Misogyny Allegations (cover misogyny allegations) -Doxxing and Threats (cover Saarkesian and Quinn, as well as threats towards Pro-GG supporters, Jayd3fox, 10 year old boy getting doxxed, bank accounts leaked, etc.) -Developer Reactions (The Escapist 'anonymous game developer' post shows all three sides (against, pro, neutral), Stardock, Anthony Burch) -Public Figure Reactions (m00t, Christine Sommers, etc.) ////////

Essentially this would now read more like what an argument typically is. Imagine a court case: You have the background of the case, the prosecution goes first, defense goes second, than closing arguments. They DON'T interrupt eachother, they DON'T get personal until the last argument. Look at any other article that has an argument, and it will have that exact format, this avoids misrepresentation of concerns on EITHER side. EvilConker (talk) 16:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

"I'm sawry u dont have sourcez 4 that?? u doo?? they r unreliable that means its false."Derpen (talk) 16:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

What? Let's keep this mature. Please. EvilConker (talk) 16:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

We can't go that way because we don't reliable sourcing to go in the specifics of everything that happened. We're covering this from the issues level, not the event. Additionally, most of the points made don't have point/counterpoint type discussion that this order would try to point towards. It's because of the disjointed coverage that we have to approach it like this without introducing new bias. --MASEM (t) 16:43, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Well then those sections will be short. Here's the thing that's rolling in my head, it's the 'let me tell you what you want' concept. See, you wouldn't use a Republican website to explain what a Democractic movement was thinking, and you wouldn't use Cops statements to explain Ferguson, or the Wall Street journal to describe Occupy Wall Street. So I wouldn't trust Anti-GG to explain why GG people are angry. You offer the accusation, and how those accused have responded. EvilConker (talk) 00:02, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

But we can't use the majority of sources that are claimed to be the proGG side because they fail reliability. We can't increase the proGG side, all we can do is temper the other side within reason to try to establish what the issues are but without trying to say who is right or wrong. --MASEM (t) 14:07, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

All this pro-GG stuff you want to add does not exist in reliable sources. This just comes back to one of the arguments made by Erik Kain in Forbes that the pro-GG crowd wants unbiased coverage, but they praise bias in their favor. It explains why this raticle has been beseiged by editors on both sides. Also Suzanne Somers was Chrissy on Three's Company. Christina Hoff Sommers is an "equality feminist" author who is against "gender feminists" (in her words).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:53, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• Sigh* here we go again: Al Jazeera Tech Crunch (all that's been said has been backed up with evidence)

I mean, what you're not understanding here is DID they say this? Yes they did. That's their argument.EvilConker (talk) 00:02, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Nobody cares what the "pro-GG" crowd (which, to be honest, if one is saying they are "po-GG" then they are in effect "pro-sexual harassment") thinks or feels in this situation; their point-of-view is decidedly fringe. The sooner you and a few others get over the misunderstanding that "pro-GG" is an equal-weight opinion alongside what this is actually about, the better. Tarc (talk) 00:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, so you admit your bias towards the issue at hand. Derpen (talk) 19:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It's certainly minority, but not fringe, as I've shown. Willhesucceed (talk) 04:55, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

While I would not dismiss it as fast as others are arguing, a viewpoint of a random group of people that have otherwise not come together to state in a unified manner of what they would like to see changed, requiring people to guess from the numerous social media posts, makes the proGG side a fringe view because there is no focus point of it. We have some ideas (eg the issues with collusion between press and devs) but we cannot treat the proGG like that is an opponent in the debate because there is no common voice here. That's half the problem with finding any proGG side coverage to offer. (The other half is the fact that because of the actions of the few, that side is considered tainted by the press). And as Wikipedia, we can only strive to give as much balance that sources let us, we cannot change that story around. --MASEM (t) 14:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I do agree, that is one of the problems when trying to source anything pro-GG. Another being that it is quite doubtful that the "reliable sources" will break from their biased stance and write an article that is pro-GG. Derpen (talk) 18:58, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The primary "accusation" here represented in mainstream reliable sources is that a significant number of people initiated a vicious, prolonged and newsworthy campaign of harassment against Zoe Quinn over false allegations of a conflict of interest, which is conflated with heavy doses of misogyny, slut-shaming, third-grade-level sex jokes, and a general tendency toward Internet trolling — particularly of women. The people who have been accused of that ("GamerGaters") have responded that they're actually concerned about journalism ethics. We accurately describe those positions, and the responses of mainstream reliable sources to each position. Not sure what more you want us to do. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:48, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

What if I told you- and hold your breath here- that these "reliable sources" can be biased?Derpen (talk) 18:15, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

So, you're praising these two singular pro-GG pieces that go "it's not about harassment it's about conflicts of interest and being censored by the man" because it gives a one-sided and biased account on your behalf rather than a general look into everything. Thanks for proving my point.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean just like how many of the sources in this article are one-sided? Better check that hypocrisy.Derpen (talk) 18:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Cited sources

I'm sure it's been pointed out before, but the decidedly biased sources being cited should be taken into account. Q ^{T C} 11:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The GameJournoPros list was covered by Ars Technica by the guy who created it. It was also covered by Forbes. Diego (talk) 11:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I've found bit-tech [2] too discussing journalist ethics and "the cabal conspiracy theory". Diego (talk) 11:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, WP:RS does not say that sources have to be non-biased because you'll never find that anywhere. All of these cries of "bias" are coming from gaters who aren't finding that this article is solely biased to their point of view. And that Breitbart shit has been repeated so many times on this page it's like a show that's stuck on UPN. Breitbart is not a reliable source because of their history of lying to make stories.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:55, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Then we shall cover what reliable sources have said about Breitbart, as those have found it significant. Diego (talk) 16:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

But to my knowledge [and correct me if I'm wrong] nobody involved in the scandal has actually denied the truth of what's written on breitbart.com. Everyone involved, like Kyle Orland in his article linked above, has acknowledged that this google group actually exists. If we have confirmation from the accused that the facts of what they're being accused of are true, and have reporting of the scandal both from those who think it is not problematic and those who think it is, does it really matter that the whole thing started on breitbart? This is nothing like some of the contentious allegations being made against Zoe Quinn, as absolutely no one seems to be calling them completely fabricated. The people accused are covering it themselves and agreeing with the facts of the article (although not the conclusions drawn from them) so this very clearly isn't some fringe conspiracy theory. If this is not enough coverage to include the JournosPros scandal in the article, I would like a clarification on exactly what would warrant it. Because as can be seen from the Anthony Weiner sexting scandals article there is clearly a point at which coverage of a scandal broken on breitbart.com is sufficient to warrant it being mentioned in Wikipedia. Not that I'm in any way claiming the GameJournoPros list scandal has received anyway near as much coverage as the Weiner scandal did, but just that the Weiner scandal proves that a point exists at which coverage of breitbart broken scandal become necessary. So my question to those against putting it in the article is: What level of coverage is required for this to warrant inclusion? Bosstopher (talk) 16:27, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Just give up already, you can't include actual journalism on this site by a long respected journalist, but if a freelancer writes the owners of this article's view, they include it happily, also watch as this talk gets closed as any other dissenting opinion gets closed down by the owners Loganmac (talk) 17:27, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

These are a few facts that have been reported by Forbes, not Breitbart:

• Forums where the incidents were being debated were heavily moderated to remove discussion.
• Journalists took a conservative approach in covering the harassment to avoid giving it publicity (this one is confirmed by Ars Technica).
• These two facts above caused the Streisand Effect and calls of censorship.
• Yiannopoulos later gave it publicity to the mailing list, painting it as a conspiracy of journalists.

Is there something in these points that you don't agree represent the content from both articles from Erik Kain and the Ars Technica article that Kain links to? Diego (talk) 17:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Let me predict what will happen:

"It's not a reliable source 'cuz its not reported by OTHER reliable sources even doe we have multiple single-sourced points in dis article, but lets look beside dat.".

Happens every time. Derpen (talk) 18:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no evidence that the Breitbart story has any credence in mainstream sources and it is undue weight to discuss it as if it does. We aren't going to permit fringe right-wing conspiracy theories in this article. Come back when you have a better source than one Forbes contributor blog. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

See? I told you he was going to say that. They've gotten to such a predictable level.Derpen (talk) 18:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

But there is a better source than the Forbes article. Please read the arguments and sourcing people present before reverting them. There is an acknowledgement by the guy being accused of being behind this, writing in a reliable source that the facts of the breitbart article are accurate. Orland fully acknowledges the existence of the google group but disputes ' the specific allegations and interpretations that a Breitbart writer made based on one of [his] posts." Where is the lack of credence for the facts of the story? I have no clue why you would go as far as to call it a fringe right wing conspiracy theory, when even the journalists accused admit it is factually accurate. Bosstopher (talk) 18:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Another prediction of what they will say:

"well ya see, dey still aint reliable sources despite that cuz.... uh... WIKIPEDIA."

They always bend those guidelines. Derpen (talk) 18:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You are not being very constructive here Derpen. Bosstopher (talk) 18:34, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Hey, I already predicted what NorthBySouthBaranof was going to say above. Derpen (talk) 18:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

On Diego's point, there is no source that connects the behind-the-scenes journalism discussion to limit the coverage of the GG towards the increase in the debate and Streisand effect. In fact, considering that that was discovered much later, it's certainly can't be tied to it. This is not saying that what the Forbes article is saying can't be in the article, but where it is was being connected was original research and synthesis. --MASEM (t) 18:40, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

So for clarification: Does anyone object to this being referenced in the article using the forbes AND ORLAND sources, with both the claims of collusion being made and Orland's rebuttal being included? Can anyone who responds to this question please start their response with the sentence "I have read Orland's article." Bosstopher (talk) 18:55, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I object. We should not be using an individual's defesne against potentially defamatory accusations as justification for repeating said accusations. We have the briefest of mentions in Kain's article and nothing more: that's not enough to justify giving any sort of credence to a publicaion that makes a habit of publishing outright lies to get pageviews and attack political opponents. We should not be including Milo's potentially defamatory accusations if we can't find stronger sources noting them, their impact and their relevance.

Erik Kain, by the way, is cited at least 18 times in this article, more frequently than any single publication, let alone any single author. I know he's popular with the pro-GamerGaters because he's more sympathetic to their cause than most, but this is getting excessive. -- TaraInDC (talk) 19:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. There are more than enough references to Erik Kain's reporting here; we already place undue weight on his perspective of this issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

But I dont see why it should be treated as a serious and potentially defamatory accusation when those involved admit to the factual accuracy of what Milo has written, and base their argument on the idea that what Milo details has no serious negative connotations. Bosstopher (talk) 20:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

That's not quite right. In addition to the above, there's this source. There's also the recent TechCrunch article. And Chinatopix. And tportal. Willhesucceed (talk) 19:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The ChinaTopix article demonstrably gets basic facts of the controversy wrong, such as completely misreporting the allegations against Quinn — I'm unaware of any other source linking the alleged conflict of interest to Steam Greenlight or to the mailing list. Those obvious factual errors preclude the article from being considered a reliable source. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The Techcrunch article doesnt actually mention the GamesJournosPros list allegations. Bosstopher (talk) 20:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Re: Second paragraph first sentence (The controversy came to wider attention...)

Excerpt in question:

The controversy came to wider attention due to harassment that indie game developer Zoe Quinn received after an ex-boyfriend posted allegations on his blog in August 2014 about her personal life that led others to accuse her of professional impropriety to obtain positive media coverage for her game. Those subsequent allegations were shown to be false[a][...]

[a]Time: "Despite the fact the journalist in question did not ‘review’ the game and wasn't found to have allocated it any particular special treatment...";[8] Washington Post: "The site investigated the alleged ethics breach and concluded there had been no wrongdoing.";[9] Forbes: "....the initial concerns were quickly proven to be all smoke and no fire..."[2]

I notice that [8] is a direct quotation from Leigh Alexander. Doesn't seem appropriate to use a subject of the article as a source without stating the potential COI. The other two don't seem to state "no credibility" without going into any evidence or details. Something doesn't seem right here. --ArmyLine (talk) 20:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Leigh Alexander is not a subject of the article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Later, beginning on August 28, 2014, a number of writers published opinion columns which argued for the "end of the gamer identity", citing the growing diversity of gaming and the mainstreaming of the medium, while those associated with GamerGate were stated to be a reactionary force against these changes.[33][43][44][45] As a result, there were concerns that the divide between gaming journalists and the gaming community was deepening, with games writers seen as attacking their own audience.[14][46]

Leigh Alexander was one of the columnists involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmyLine (talk • contribs) 20:27, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Writing an article that is subsequently cited by this article does not in any sense create a "conflict of interest." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:31, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

These straw man ‘game journalism ethics’ conversations people have been having are largely the domain of a prior age, when all we did was negotiate ad deals and review scores and scraped to be called ‘reporters’, because we had the same powerlessness complex as our audience had. Now part of a writer’s job in a creative, human medium is to help curate a creative community and an inclusive culture -- and a lack of commitment to that just looks out-of-step, like a partial compromise with the howling trolls who’ve latched onto ‘ethics’ as the latest flag in their onslaught against evolution and inclusion.

--ArmyLine (talk) 20:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit Conflict

I noted something when browsing the Edit History for the page here. From what it looks, Tarc randomly rolled back an edit by Masem for "not a chance that any of that "private mailing list" nuttery is going to be her,e in any form",not using any real reasoning for why it was removed. From what I'm guessing, there seems to be a resistance of having the "mailing list" added into the article despite it being cited by notable sources. Any explanation for this revision conflict? Derpen (talk) 20:43, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes please look at section 15 of the talk page where this is being discussed. You really should have known better than starting a new section given that you've already posted in that section. Bosstopher (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes Mr. WP:SPA, I just randomly hit "revert" and randomly types in words into the edit summary that just by the merest of cosmic circumstances happened to randomly form into a coherent English explanation of why I reverted the text. The assertion that there was collusion by journalists on a mailing list is Breitbart et al fueled fringe conspiracy, and has no place in this article. I mean, imagine; professionals actually talking to each other about their profession? I'm glad no one knows about my Spiceworks membership, where we plan global domination of the IT industry. (Oops, did I say that out loud?) Tarc (talk) 20:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC)