Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign): Difference between revisions

Consider Basics on Structuring a Neutral Article

Hey guys, I tend to dabble in less formal sites than Wikipedia - smaller wikis with far less stringent rules on citing sources and with less structure in regards to how editing is done. Apologies if I violate a standard for formatting on the talk page.

However, I felt like I should weigh in just to point out that the article can fix some of its concerns with bias by adjusting the connotation and structure of the article to be more neutral. Right now, the article opens up and the first sentence says, "GamerGate is about ingrained misogyny in gaming culture". And while this is technically accurate because a lot of the controversy revolves around that debate, it's a way of opening the article that leads with the stance of one side. It's like making an article about the abortion debate and leading with a sentence that reads, "the abortion debate is a controversy concerning the death of unborn children". Again, technically true to write that, but by leading this way you make it appear as though the controversy is that kids are dying and the fight is over how to stop it. Likewise, this article makes it sound as though the gaming community is sexist and the argument is about how to deal with it.

The article then goes on to list "legitimate grievances of the Gamer Gate movement" at the very end of the article, and with no bullets within, making it appear as something of an afterthought to the article despite being at least as equally large as the fantastically detailed account of Zoe Quinn's harassment. Meanwhile, you have a section entitled "Role of misogyny and anti-feminism", and within that section you include criticism from a self-proclaimed feminist who believes gaming isn't sexist. While I understand that you're trying to make the readers informed that the commentator in that section does not agree with some Feminists, it seems a bit unfair to declare her an "anti-feminist" or include her under that header when apparently she doesn't identify as such.

Given the way you're doing this, an outside observer might be persuaded to think that the weight being added to one side of this controversy goes above and beyond the availability of reliable sourcing. Going forward, you ought to consider completely restructuring the article to have more neutral headers like "Media Response", "Twitter Activity", "Crticism", "Online Threats", and so on. That's a much more responsible approach than having headers in an abortion article that say things like "Ongoing Disputes Over Murdered Children".

All that said, I've cleaned up biased articles on smaller websites, so I know how it gets when you honestly feel that something you care about is being infringed upon. However, if you're extremely passionate about this article - or maybe if you're a very ardent feminist or Gamer Gate supporter - you should back up for a little bit and let some other people take over for a while, because you're on a side and you're being a lot more biased than you realize. YellowSandals (talk) 14:25, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are based on what reliable sources say. The reliable sources say this involves misogyny and anti-feminism. We do not say that "the gaming community is sexist," we note that the overwhelming majority of reliable sources say that there are significant elements of sexism in the gaming community. These are the mainstream, predominant viewpoints on the issue and our articles are required to present these viewpoints accordingly. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:48, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

From the talk page, you are recognizably one of the individuals with a very strong bias. Regardless of that or the preponderance of articles for or against your side, it's still clear that the entire article is written from the point of view of a single side of the argument. If I were you, I would consider this: if you really believe that the denigration of women is a verifiable Truth that needs to be fought against, then your stance can be strengthened by neutrality and criticism. When someone analyzes the research methodology of feminist sources, that is not an attack on feminism - that's called peer review and it's crucial aspect of productive research and science. For that reason, it's disingenuous to label a critical researcher as an "anti-feminist" just because you disagree with her. I know that many articles represent Gamer Gate as an issue of harassment and sexism, but do you feel there's any evidence that Gamer Gate supporters disagree with that perspective? Do you feel supporters of the other team are willfully cruel and insensitive, and confederated towards purposefully disreputable goals? If so, your understanding of the world and its politics is based on Saturday morning cartoons - your ideological opponents are not Cobra Command, and by treating them as such you've written a very unprofessional article that has no value. YellowSandals (talk) 20:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Uhh, no. You are pretty off on all counts on how Wikipedia works. It matters not what we as individuals think and it matters not what some gamergaters may wish to achieve. since "gamergate" is not a formal membership organization and there is no recognized manifesto or set of platforms, we present gamergate solely as the reliably published mainstream sources see it and present it. And I will remind you that you also need to assume good faith that other editors are working to achieve Wikipedia's principles of writing an encyclopedia and not cast aspersions about their motives on this talk page]]. If someone is not editing per the WP:5P, then you will need to take your concerns about their editing to the appropriate place that handles editor behavior, such as administrators notice board and be able to specifically identify how they are acting inappropriately with specific examples , not simply wildly unjustified assertions of "you are recognizably one of the individuals with a very strong bias.". You may wish to strike such nonsense to demonstrate your good faith. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Being quoted in a section that discusses the well-sourced role of anti-feminism in the movement does not label that person as an anti-feminist.

It doesn't matter what I think, and there aren't "teams" here. What matters is that reliable sources have said that there are a significant number of GamerGate supporters who are, as you say, "willfully cruel and insensitive, and confederated toward purposefully disreputable goals" and that even if they are a minority, they are a vocal and vicious minority, have committed vile acts of harassment and the "movement" as a whole has either been unable or unwilling to disassociate itself from them — and that the end result is to permanently poison the well of the debate and render the entire movement non-credible. Those reliable sources are amply presented here, and their conclusion is virtually unanimous. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:14, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Much of bias is about little things that shape someone's views points by the subtle way things are worded, often with the same denotations but differing connotations, and proximity to other sentences that form connections. It's not all about what is explicitly stated. Halfhat (talk) 21:29, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Being quoted in a section that discusses the well-sourced role of anti-feminism in the movement does not label that person as an anti-feminist. But I repeat myself. There are over a dozen people quoted in that section, and I notice that you're not claiming that Simon Parkin, Liana Kerzner and Erik Kain are anti-feminists. You can literally read anything into anything if you'd like. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:35, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I think the biggest issue is that the sources are generally quite negative towards it so it's har for the result to be neutral. That said I think there is a lot of biased wording, and excessively emotive language I proposed so some stuff to try to make it better. But lets just say there was consensus to make the edits. I'm pretty new to editing Wikipedia so I'm not too sure. But it seems to me there are a couple of strongly anti GamerGate people here that really get in the way. We all have our opinions myself included, but these two (if you read you'll see who) really seem to be the ones opposing all the changes to do with bias, and seem not to even try to be neutral. I remember one in particular breaking into anti-GG rants on this talk page. I'm really not sure how to go forward or what excatly it should look like. I just hope some more experienced editors do, and get it done. Halfhat (talk) 21:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

we never strive to achieve a false "neutrality". An article meets Wikipedias WP:NPOV by matching the views of the reliably published sources and expert opinions. Since those sources are overwhelmingly "negative" towards "gamergate"; if our article is in fact "negative" towards "gamergate" ; that is a sign that we are doing our job in representing the sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Nice strawman. What I criticised is the use of emotional language and wording. Not the pointsHalfhat (talk) 21:36, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually no, that's not 100% true either. Hypothetical: let's say a person is suspected of a violent crime, evidence is strongly against them, etc, but the trial hasn't happened. It may be the case that the press with presume "guilty until proven innocent", a natural human instinct, but if the trial has not happened, we cannot take the opinion of the press here. This is what is happening in GG to a different degree - there are morally wrong things being done, but no one person has been charged with any type of doing it, and while the press has pretty much painted that whole side as the same, we should not be doing the same. We can report this opinion of the press, but we cannot write this article on that same unestablished notion. --MASEM (t) 21:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is asking you to build a false neutrality. What I'm saying is, the title itself states the issue is a controversy, and yet the article is written as if there barely is one despite this whole thing going on for, what, months now? I've been seeing it on forums all over the place. The stance of the Gamer Gate side is included and referenced, but it's listed at the bottom like it has the least significance to the entire article. Meanwhile, Somners provides some very objective criticism of the research methodology used to discuss the whole debate, and that's listed under the "anti-feminist" header. That's not rational, it's not objectives, and it's something you willfully chose to do. The available media sources did not force you to do it. You could structure this article with neutral headers, but you actively choose not to. Criticizing corollary data or the methods used to obtain them is not the same as being an enemy to an ideology - if Somners is a researcher, it's her damned job to question these things! It's what science and research is about! YellowSandals (talk) 21:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not really understanding your objection here. The section is titled "Role of anti-feminism and misogyny." It is indisputable that anti-feminism and misogyny play a role in the debate, as exemplified by source after source after source. The section header does not suggest that everyone quoted in that section is "anti-feminist," any more than a section header entitled "Murder" would suggest that everyone quoted in that section is a murderer. In fact, we accurately and directly describe Ms. Sommers as an "author and scholar." We quote and present her views. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:54, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Indisputable? You are writing an article about an ongoing controversy and debate. Somners is a researcher who made a video debating whether or not misogyny is playing a role, questioning some of the data being used to draw that conclusion. And you put her under the "anti-feminist" header even though she describes herself as a Feminist. Consider that - if questioning the research or postulates of Feminism automatically makes you an enemy of the ideology, how could anyone ever dispute? Why would people who blindly believe in the ideology question it? By definition you've created an absolute "us Vs them" trap. Your logic is circular and you've written an article on the assumption that the feminist side of the debate is beyond dispute. That's called bias, North. You're biased. I understand your position and you should hold to your convictions, but if you can't understand the debate then you shouldn't be assisting the article about the debate. I'm not asking for you to include more info in support of anyone - I just want to see more neutral headers that don't lump critics under the "misogynists and anti-feminists" section, because Wikipedia can't make misrepresent still-living people that way. YellowSandals (talk) 22:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

It is indisputable that misogyny and anti-feminism are a significant part of the GamerGate controversy; see all the reliable sources quoted here. One person claiming that it doesn't play a role does not somehow magically mean it's not — frankly, if she claims that misogyny and anti-feminism aren't involved in GamerGate, she's espousing a fringe theory far outside the mainstream of thought. Our section title accurately depicts the fact that the overwhelming consensus of reliable sources is that misogyny and anti-feminism play a role.

Again, your claim that titling a section about the issues it discusses somehow labels the people quoted in the section has no support in Wikipedia policy or common sense. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

While I cannot agree with all you've said, Yellow, I've been trying to point this type of issue out for some time - that the anti-GG quoting in this article is assuming that they (antiGGers) are "right" and to preach that side. I know we're never going to have an article that will paint the proGG side in a light that makes them look saintly, but we shouldn't be assuming the antiGG side is impeccable as well, just because that's the side the mainsteam press has taken. We can address the common points the mainstream press has given, but we need to write this much more clinically. --MASEM (t) 22:20, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, Christina Hoff Sommers is known for her opinions that are critical of modern third wave feminism (where many people consider her anti-feminist rather than her self-defined equity feminist). People were so insistent that we label her on this page as a registered democrat with libertarian leanings because the American Enterprise Institute is a conservative think tank because of her heavily conservative writings and leanings despite what she has said she is.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:27, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

You can't just defend a bias by saying it's common sense, North. The point is, there's no reason to include a "Misogyny and Anti-Feminism" header when a "Criticisms" or "Media Analysis" header would be more expansive, more convenient, and wouldn't paint the subject material beneath in a strictly negative light. There's definitely a lot more media coverage depicting Gamer Gate as a sexist movement, but I think it's because of the nature of the issue. Gamer Gate itself is, when it is led, pretty factional. It's been continually springing up in new places, and each forum, Youtube following, or game dev has a unique understanding and stance on the issue. The Feminist side, however, has been pretty unified because the things they're saying follow a common and established doctrine. It's a disorganized group in conflict with a more organized group, and consequently, the media can only present the anti-GG side with any certainty. Virtually everything in support of Gamer Gate has been informal. Things like blogs, Youtube channels, forums, and other material that aren't suited for Wikipedia.

In spite of that, though, it's important to structure the article in the assumption that maybe more info will come to light as the debate continues. A header titled "Role of Misogyny and Anti-Feminism" is kind of useless and it's blatantly biased. If a more consistent leader were to emerge from Gamer Gate, you could provide no additional information beneath that header, and as it is, all it's being used for is to indirectly accuse people of being anti-feminists for having this or that opinion. However, with a header like "Media Response" or "Criticism", you could add data representing any aspect of the subject. Neutral headers are better for a lot of practical reasons, and this article will never be unbiased as long is it's trying to reconcile a section that assumes one side or aspect of the argument is indisputably correct. YellowSandals (talk) 22:38, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

We're never going to structure an article around what could happen in the future, by Wikipedia policy. We're structuring the article around how reliable sources characterize the movement now and in the past, which is all we can do. If that changes, then we change the article. Woodroar (talk) 22:52, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not asking you to use Wikipedia to predict the future. I'm asking you to use unbiased headers that are more functional. Look, Gamer Gate supporters are in this thing for a variety of reasons, right? Zoe touched off a number of nerves that have been on people's minds lately. She used the DMCA to shut down discussion - it would be nice if Wikipedia could find an article that explained how she did that and if it was legal. She was accused of trading sex for positive reviews when people are already mad at gaming media for giving AAA games reviews for money. She made her battle into a Feminist issue while there was already controversy surrounding Anita Sarkeesian. I honestly don't think a disorganized mob of people could stay mad for this long because they're afraid of losing their masculinity or something, and among those pro-GG who have a problem with Feminism, even they don't think of themselves as misogynists.

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So I have a real problem when the entire article is structured as though none of these issues exist, and the entire debate is about "ingrained misogyny" and how to deal with it. As though GG supporters were just dealing with some Freudian, subconscious problem they refuse to admit. For goodness sake, you have a section talking about things that the Gamer Gate movement has actually done and has explained legitimate grievances about. WHY is that at the bottom? WHY do you have a header labelled from the perspective of Feminists above that, and that header is merely being used to accuse pro-GG critics of being anti-feminist?

Is there really NOTHING? Of all the grievances being expressed by the various factions of the Gamer Gate movement, Wikipedia can find NOTHING neutral that discusses the controversies involved with this thing, and the article needs to be structured to highlight that fact as hard as it can? Come on - people are coming to this page and they know they're not getting a full story. I see them griping about it on forums. Nobody is being fooled here. The article is just bad and needs to be fixed. YellowSandals (talk) 23:13, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

No, really, we can't, not without abandoning our sourcing policies (per WP:RS and WP:FRINGE). For example, we know that a DCMA was used to close out one discussion - that's given - but to claim it was Quinn? That's a theory without backing and that no RS has reported. Much of what I know proGGs would like to see in this (reading on the various threads at the usual places), we simply cannot support because they are the quintessential definition of fringe theories, irregardless how much "proof" they think they have on that. We're not here to be a unbias journalistic report on this, we're here to summarize reliable sources, and they are not giving us anything we can use to give more claims to the proGG side that I know they'd like us to see. --MASEM (t) 23:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Alright, that's fair. I've tried looking for articles myself, but they all keep repeating the same thing and none are talking about the things Gamer Gate seems to hold grievances over. Which I think is really only promoting paranoia. Still, though, I maintain the article could stand to be restructured so that it shows it's representing criticism and opinions, because so far that's all that's really coming out about this whole controversy. There are major news sources discussing it, but it's yellow journalism - they're reporting opinions, but there haven't been many, if any, facts. It's just not practical to have a structure discussing the role "misogyny and anti-feminism" play in a controversy when everyone's opinion of what misogyny and anti-feminism is can vary so much. YellowSandals (talk) 23:50, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Going back to the beginning, YellowSandals... 1. Zoe Quinn's boyfriend never wrote a review of her game, and that is settled, proven fact. The allegation at the very base of GamerGate was a false one and this tainted the movement from the start. 2. Much of the frenzy over Zoe Quinn was slut-shaming personal attacks, right down to the third-grade-level sex jokes about "Five Guys." It might have made for some lulz on 4chan, but it's hardly the way to demonstrate that your movement is seriously interested in journalism ethics. 3. Zoe Quinn is not an "AAA publisher" — she gave her game away for free on the Internet. This leads to pointed questions about the actual motivations of the movement, given the multiplicity of available targets in the industry that are much higher-profile and have done things actually clearly unethical — like buy positive coverage through advertorials. 4. Even if there *was* a journalism ethics issue involved, the person to target would have been Nathan Grayson — the actual journalist who would have done something unethical. Instead, the movement focused its attention and/or harassment on Quinn and her defenders. 5. Throughout, the discussions and hashtag were riddled with glaring, blatant, obvious and unrepentant misogyny and sexism. The use of the codephrase "SJW" reduced the movement's opponents to caricatures. Supporters demanded that, in effect, game journalists stop writing about issues of gender, race, class, culture and politics in video games. All of those factors, and others, contributed to a perception (fair or not) that the movement's claim of "journalism ethics" was little more than a pretense for attacks on women in the industry and a retrograde attempt to stop the increasingly-diverse nature of discussion and debate in video game culture.

Now I know what you're going to say, and it's exactly what every good-faith GamerGate supporter says — "That's not me, I don't support it." Unfortunately, that misses the point. The "movement," such as it is, is organized around nothing more than a hashtag. The barrier to entry to the "movement" is nothing more than the ability to type that hashtag. Anyone who claims to be a part of GamerGate by using the hashtag effectively is a part of GamerGate, whether anyone likes it or not, and the movement will end up judged by the worst people using it. Long ago, the hashtag was rendered fruit of a poisonous tree, and the only way to move forward and beyond what GamerGate is popularly associated with is to abandon it entirely, come up with something else, develop an organization and create coherent goals.

This is not my personal opinion of the issue; this is what reliable mainstream sources have said. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:20, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Don't cast stones from a glass house, North. Lest you be judged by the deeds of the worst Feminists. I think your intense personal stake in the controversy is a major conflict of interest here. YellowSandals (talk) 00:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I stake no claim to any part in any movement and it's difficult not to notice that you declined to actually address what reliable sources have said about the issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:33, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

It's difficult to claim no stake when the bulk of your previous response appear to be subjective qualifications. To play devil's advocate (no relation), what is notable is the fact that Quinn's game was given glowing reviews across the board, despite the comparatively poor ratings it's received from its public (non-journalistic) audience at large, a la Metacritic for instance. Even then, these results were contested by various editors as to their notability and validity for inclusion in the article, despite their presence on the articles of other video games, and prior to a reliable source for the claim that trolls were responsible (despite the fact that many giving negative reviews also had several to hundreds of other reviews credited to their accounts, and that many sarcastic reviews ironically gave positive ratings). Regarding "the person to target," I don't know how to and therefore won't address that supposition as that's a bad road to travel down, that is, whom the appropriate "target" is. Indeed if this claim is made by secondary sources, perhaps a more effective method of framing would be, for example, "Sources have stated that Grayson would have been the target if journalistic integrity was an issue." You also mention that the hashtag was "riddled with glaring, blatant, obvious and unrepentant misogyny and sexism" - I fully agree, the issue is that that hashtag has been utilized by both supporters and detractors, and in the spirit of avoiding unintentional bias, that point should be made more clear, secondary sources permitting. I would argue that SJW is far less of an obvious caricature, or at the very least one on par, as that of the virginal, overweight adult white male with no social skills that has so often been used, especially in the eyes of readers of the mainstream media versus gaming journalism. Finally, I would avoid implying the associations of others, especially for instance, through use of such a heavy blanket statement of "Anyone who claims to be a part of GamerGate by using the hashtag effectively is a part of GamerGate," as that also includes Quinn, Sarkeesian, and Wu themselves, as they have used that hashtag, or at least, this is my interpretation of what you said. Remember: verifiable, not true. We're all working towards the same goal: a cohesive and accurate representation as best can be reported from reliably sourced facts. AnyyVen (talk) 01:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Your personal opinions no matter how dear and clear they are to your are meaningless without reliably published sources to support them. please read the policies WP:OR / WP:V / WP:RS and WP:UNDUE. We are done until you start backing your position with appropriate sources. and we are certainly done with you impugning other editors. WP:NPA / WP:AGF -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I apologize if I seem untoward. However, I believe nothing I have stated is outside of the facts already published with citations on Wikipedia itself let alone in recognized secondary sources. I assure you I have read the policies you've offered; however, I will consult them again. Likely, any failings I've had to adhere to them are due to my own lack of experience in their usage. I would request for my own education if you would be able to assist me by showing me which policies apply to which statements I've made, or even more valuable, how, as well. Furthermore, I'm unclear as to whom "we" refers to? Finally, I would also offer that in light of the suggestion that I'm attempting to "impugn" anyone, would also like to refer you to WP:AGF as well as WP:BITE. From my view, I saw a statement with no citations, along with some elements that do not appear to be factual/are opinion. I was attempting to provide contrast (in positions, to better facilitate consensus) as there is, clearly, dispute as to neutrality in this topic. AnyyVen (talk) 03:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

What I'm also taking away is this seems to be confusion between arguing that Gamergate as a movement is not misogynistic versus misogyny being an issue in the debate. These are wholly different: for instance, arguing if someone is biased immediately requires that bias is a concern, whether or not they actually are. AnyyVen (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Whatever the confusion of any arguments may be, gamergate is misogynistic and there has long been an issue of misogyny in the gamer community and we have sources identifying both and identifying the former as springing from the later. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:31, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I can't agree with the argument "gamergate is misogynistic" because it doesn't completely make sense. I can agree with the statements that "some participants in the gamergate controversy are misogynistic" or "have done misogynistic things," which is what many sources are very particular about stating, but this includes participants from both the proGG and antiGG sides (which apparently do not exist), and also says nothing about the harassment endured by non-female persons and entities. AnyyVen (talk) 23:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

One of the issues involved in this debate is whether or not Gamer Gate is sexist. Sexism is an issue, and you have opinion sources stating the opinion that Gamer Gate is sexist. For that matter, do you and I define "misogyny" the same way? What about you and the Wiki's readers. If it's the dominant opinion then you represent it, but it's still an opinion and needs to be held as one. YellowSandals (talk) 23:50, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

This seems to be the main issue on this page, TROPD you are stating an OPINION as a fact. Yes there have been misogynistic actions by a minority BUT you are brushing a whole movement as sexist because of that. (you will bring up sources but they re stating a writers opinion) Would you call all muslims misogynistic, violent criminals just because of the actions of ISIS? Retartist (talk) 01:01, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Your personal opinions are noted and noted as being contrary to multiple reliably published sources [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] and therefore a a minority opinion AT BEST and so deserving of minimal or no coverage AT BEST and certainly not restructuring the article to minimize the fact of the misogyny and sexism. And having been addressed MULTIPLE times before [6] and so your continued lack of clue is now heading towards the purely disruptive. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

First: OR does not apply in this case as i am not either editing the article or making a specific suggestion; i am refuting a point of yours. Secondly the RS's are copying the opinion of a minority of people directly involved (sure there are a lot of sources supporting your POV but the accusation that a whole movement is misogynistic based on the actions of a few is as ridiculous as saying that islam advocates violence based on isis). Thirdly BLAPS: THE ACCUSATION THAT MISOGYNY IS THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND EVERY GAMER IS AN OPINION BASED ON THE ACTIONS OF A FEW. Therefore we should treat it as an opinion not a fact, A 'SCHOLAR' has refuted that claim. Fourthly: STICK applies to you as well. FINALLY: TE, At best i violate points 2.6 and 2.13. You however violate 2.1 2.3 2.5 2.6 2.9 2.10 2.11 2.13 2.14. And see WP:AOTE because you do this to anyone who disagrees with your view. Retartist (talk) 04:05, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Literally no one is arguing "that misogyny is the driving force behind every gamer." So why are you fighting strawmen? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

When i hear that gamergate is misogynistic i assume that "everyone who supports gamergate is misogynistic" is what is meant Retartist (talk) 08:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's a different question — not "every gamer" is part of GamerGate, not by a longshot. But no, that statement means what it says — "the movement as a whole is identified as misogynistic." #GamerGate is an identity movement, and when a person puts on a badge that says "#GamerGate," it doesn't necessarily mean they personally are misogynistic — but they are identifying as part of a movement that is misogynistic. Which taints everything they might say under that hashtag, and has permanently poisoned the well of this debate. Which is why a huge number of reliable sources have repeatedly suggested that those interested in actual sane discussions of journalistic ethics abandon the hashtag and come up with something different.

The claim that "not everyone in #GamerGate supports misogyny so the movement isn't misogynistic" fails as a matter of logic — it's effectively a version of the no true Scotsman fallacy. Which is the fatal weakness of any "movement" of largely-anonymous people with no leadership, no organization, no unified goals and no ability to gatekeep who is and who isn't part of it.NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you kindly for clarifying this. Question however: as for the no true Scotsman argument, doesn't that work the other way as well? For instance there are some articles stating the whole movement is misogynistic whereas other articles specify that "some" or a "vocal minority" are responsible. At risk of seeming dense, how does one especially in terms of a wikipedia article counterbalance this? via WP:DUE? AnyyVen (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm just going to link this, a reddit post by a Boston Globe writer that previously wrote on GG about a month ago, and has tried to dig into the proGG side and found nothing to report on, which explains why unless the proGG tactics change, we are not going to get the sourcing that we need to give the proGG a fair shake. [7]; not a gamer, this is the thoughts of a member of the press trying to find a story to report on. And this is probably similar to what other mainstream sources are struggling with. It fully rationalizes why while there are ways to fix parts of this article, the narrative isn't going to change. --MASEM (t) 04:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I have another concern regarding the inclusion of "misogyny and anti-feminism" as it's own header. Aside from the fact that it's only the opinion of certain parties that gamers or Gamer Gate are misogynists, is there any actual proof that gaming in general is misogynistic? The insistence that Somners is an anti-Feminist because she disputes this idea kind of demonstrates that peer review for this assertion is not especially welcome. You look at something like gravity, and there are critics on the theories of gravity, but they aren't labelled as anti-gravity scientists. In other words, the assertion that gamers are misogynistic appears to be stemming from an ideology - if the ideology is using very weak research methodology and refuses peer review, then by Wikipedia's definition, it's fringe because it's pseudoscience. Am I understanding correctly?

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There are a lot of reporters who feel that Gamer Gate is sexist, so that opinion isn't fringe. The article should be free to mention a prevailing opinion as it is, represented as an opinion. But to say that "misogyny" plays a primary role in everyone's actions? There's no hard proof of that. Somners argues it's false specifically because the data being used to support that argument is weak. There are things that are concrete and can be said about Gamer Gate, but the notion that the industry is inherently sexist is an opinion. To assert that Gamer Gate is sexist beyond the scope of opinion, you'd need articles actually gathering data on the stances of people within the movement. Yes? Until then, the Wiki should say, "Time and numerous other publications decried Gamer Gate as a sexist movement", as opposed to using wording and structure that implies the sexism is somehow a scientifically foregone conclusion.

I understand the challenge of writing this article, but the "neutrality" tag is on this article for a reason, and if the article can't even be moved towards more neutral wording and structure then I'm not sure what else can be done for it. YellowSandals (talk) 06:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Your insistence on "proof" is misguided. As explained above, Wikipedia publishes what reliable sources say about a topic. It is not our job to second-guess the conclusions of reliable sources.

Similarly, you are perhaps misreading the article. Nowhere does this article make the claim that "gaming in general is misogynistic." Instead, this article notes, as have a wide array of reliable sources, that there are "ingrained issues of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community" (and perhaps this should be expanded to say "industry" as well.) This phrase does not state, imply or even suggest that everyone in gaming is misogynistic. This statement is supported by a wide array of reliable sources; whether they have "proof" or not is immaterial. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

If people are misreading it, it's not clear enough. Willhesucceed (talk) 12:08, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Or they're willfully choosing to read what they want into words that don't actually say what they want. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

No, they're reading exactly what the sentence says. The problem is, there's no unified definition of "misogyny". You've linked to the slut-shaming article previously, but notice the quote, "Slut shaming is defined by many...". Right there, you're seeing the article worded to allow for the fact that there's more than a single perspective on what that phrase means. Further, that article goes on to maintain neutrality with phrasing such as "accepted codes of sexual conduct", which is broad, accurate, and sensible, because the definition of "accepted codes of conduct" can vary wildly by context and community. The article does not say, "slut shaming is about ingrained misogyny" as this article does for Gamer Gate. Look at the slut-shaming article - seriously look at it. The headers are neutral and practical. "Overview", "In Literature", "In the Media", "Attempts to Stop the Practice". Nowhere in that article are headers like "Role of Misogyny" being used, because "misogyny" is a charged word with no clear definition and its use is not informative. Using a header like "Role of Misogyny and Anti-Feminism" and opening the article by saying "This debate is about ingrained misogyny" can not only be interpreted differently by a variety of readers, but it's also rather pejorative. YellowSandals (talk) 15:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The aspects of misogyny, sexism, and anti-feminism have been brought up by pretty much everyone out there other than the people Gamergate defines as "not biased" which his shorthand for "totally biased in our favor". Gamergate has been defined by these words consistently but you are still all going #NotAllGamergaters when being confronted with this fact.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

And there has been a consistently prevailing opinion that Hitler was evil, but yet his article describes him as "an Austrian-born German politician and the leader of the Nazi Party" because this is a factual assessment. You can't quantify evil and the perception of what evil is does vary by individual. Just like the word "evil", the word "misogyny" could mean numerous things depending on the perspective of the individual reader, and "misogyny" is not a word with anything but a negative connotation. When these sources call Gamer Gate "misogynistic", is there any evidence that they've agreed upon a definition for misogyny? I don't think so - and if they have, then Wikipedia should probably document what that agreed definition is so that the readers know. Otherwise, the article may as well open by saying "Gamer Gate is a controversy concerning ingrained evil within the industry". These words are just pejorative and defined by opinion. It would be better to say that Gamer Gate is a controversy concerned with gender politics, because that's broader, neutral, and conveys that mileage varies within the debate. YellowSandals (talk) 16:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I can't continue a conversation where the concept of "Hitler was not evil" is brought up as a means to say "Gamergate is not misogynistic".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:51, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree with Ryulong that the chosen article and issue to draw parallels with here may be a poor one. However, the Hitler article does indeed make mention that many historians and other parties consider the Nazi regime as well as Hitler himself to be evil. However, while I'm no expert, 'evil' is a far more broadly defined category that is also based upon moral implications and therefore far more subjective. Misogyny on the other hand has a much more concise definition, including mandated by law and policy, giving precedence. Additionally, I'm sure if more professional works defining Hitler as evil existed, especially as in the proportions present for Gamergate, it would be more heavily noted on that article per WP:DUE. More pertinent though is that considering that I think I can safely say the bulk of publications about Gamergate include pronounced mention of misogyny by name and harassment specifically directed at women due to their gender as well as sexism, and that the article still does use terms including "allegations," "argue" and the like, it's not out of line. The fact is, misogyny, its presence and role in this controversy, and its relationship to the status of Gamergate as a movement or some of its membership/participants, is the most prominent feature and theme present in the media. AnyyVen (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

What I'm saying is, would you agree that some people think misogyny is a form of evil? Look, I'm sorry to bring up Hitler because I know it's a joke doing so on the internet, but everyone knows who he is, which is why he's so culturally relevant. The important question, Ryūlóng, is: what is the definition of misogyny being used in these debates? Because the definition varies. Everybody knows what gender politics is, but one person's misogyny may be another person's traditional values. "Misogynistic" is not any more an objective adjective than "evil", and it would be in poor taste to open a Wikipedia article by describing something as "concerned with ingrained, ongoing evil". YellowSandals (talk) 16:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Apologies if you're asking Ryulong in specific. I think it's spurious to assert one way or the other if "some people" think misogyny is a "form of evil," because of the ill definitions and broad speculation as to "some people" and what exactly evil is, let alone a form of it. I'm gathering what you may be trying to get at is that by asserting an entity is misogynistic, it is, or will lead to the belief it is also/therefore "evil?" This is all extremely subjective. The issue here is that it isn't Wikipedia proposing that Gamergate is or is not misogynist, but rather reporting what secondary sources are arguing or alleging it is, so the argument is moot. On a more personal note, the topics they're relating in regards to the alleged misogyny - rape threats, death threats, bomb threats [at least] primarily against women - can hardly be construed as mistaking someone's "traditional values." AnyyVen (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I mean, consider this as a revision. "It concerns gender politics in the gaming community and journalistic ethics in the online gaming press - particularly conflicts of interest between video game journalists and developers. The movement itself has been widely criticized as misogynistic due to ongoing hostility towards female developers and game critics."

This way your opening statement is factual, not using charged language, but it still includes the prevailing opinion expressed by the available sources. In this way, Wikipedia is not siding with the prevailing opinion by stating Gamer Gate is misogynistic, but simply stating that a core issue is gender politics, particularly criticisms regarding misogyny. It still conveys the exact same information, but without the bias. YellowSandals (talk) 17:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that most sources don't allege the issue is gender politics, they allege it is misogyny, literally, by name, and often directly in the headline. It would be a misrepresentation to state otherwise, and an unwarranted interpretation on the article's part to infer that gender politics and misogyny are the same thing. I can't even find mention of "gender politics" on the misogyny page, so I do not think it is a safe assumption to equate the two. AnyyVen (talk) 17:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. I feel like this is going nowhere. The identity politics article describes identity politics as politics shaped by culture or gender and so on. I feel like most articles have been explicitly referring to gamer culture and the identity politics of being a gamer. The politics of being a female gamer. I can't swallow this. You can't be telling me that it's not identity politics just because the prevailing opinion is that Gamer Gate is "misogynistic". If the reporting on this is really so ridiculously one-sided that it shanghais Wikipedia into totally lacking neutrality, then delete the article. You can fix the wording by making the change I propose, even by using the term "identity politics" instead of "gender politics". It's what the debate is about! The sources are actively discussing Gamer Gate as an issue of identity politics. YellowSandals (talk) 17:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are founded on the principle of reliable secondary sources. This effectively restricts the material that can be used as citations to those that, by consensus, will generally be the most reputable and accurate, with general hallmarks of professional peer review and an assumed degree of expertise. Even if the reporting is one-sided, Wikipedia cannot conduct original research to counter the mainstream opinion. Therefore, to write the article in such a way as to cast doubt on or interpret the mainstream opinion without reliable sources is an implication of better certitude than those sources. I understand that the definition of the controversy may differ for some individuals, especially those in support of it, but unfortunately, at least at this time, that is not what the public at large believes according to mainstream sources. That's a public relations issue. As far as deleting the article, that would be biased by omission in the sense it is ignoring that by and large, mainstream sources are reporting that Gamergate has issues of misogyny. This argument is problematic in the sense that your suggestion is that if the article isn't "fixed" with your suggestions, the alternative is to delete it, which is rather all-or-nothing. Instead, I suggest finding these sources that state the issue is identity politics (and do so without interpretation), see the weighting this argument is given in respect to the accusations and implications of misogyny, and offer an introduction reflecting these weightings. AnyyVen (talk) 18:04, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

It seems that you're arguing that Wikipedia has to choose a side because the more reliable sources chose a side. Gamer Gate can't be identity politics because the press is saying it's "misogynistic", so therefore Wikipedia must call Gamer Gate "misogynistic". Open and shut case. No politics here. YellowSandals (talk) 18:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia cannot present novel material. Unless reliable sources begin referring to the subject as "identity politics", the English Wikipedia cannot present it as such. The English Wikipedia presents the Gamergate controversy as one about misogyny and sexism in gamer culture, and the movement's desire for greater ethics in journalism, which is seen as a thinly veiled cover for the inherent misogyny that spawned it and the desire to remove cultural criticism and culturally relevant topics from video games.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Which reliable sources are saying that Gamer Gate has nothing to do with the gamer identity. They're all saying it's about the gamer identity and culture. The gamer identity is the core of the controversy. You - you're just conveniently ignoring anything you don't like so that the article has to stay biased. YellowSandals (talk) 18:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps I was mistaken in omitting the concept of the expanded inclusivity of who is a gamer that those in Gamergate also want to avoid, which I'm assuming is the "Gamer is dead" articles that everyone's panties are in a twist over. But this does not mean I am biased. Remember to always assume good faith.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

YellowSandals, you were the first to suggest that sources are referring to "identity politics," so unfortunately the burden of proof lies on you to affirm this through sources deemed reliable. If this is indeed as widespread as the claims on misogyny, it should be trivial. Wikipedia is as much at the mercy of the media regarding who, what or why Gamergate is as it is at the mercy of the mainstream opinion on whether the earth is round, or whether bigfoot is a transdimensional alien being. It is not Wikipedia's place to affirm what the truth is nor to interpret the works of others. If most reliable sources state that Gamergate is awash in misogyny, how can Wikipedia reasonably argue otherwise without conducting original research? This isn't case closed, it's a matter of asking you to provide evidence for your case. AnyyVen (talk) 18:34, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

A lot of articles are discussing the issue as one of shifting demographics and the way it's impacting the gaming culture. One reference being used discusses this. "A new study from the Entertainment Software Association found that adult women are the largest demographic of gamers. As women begin to play a bigger role in the gaming community, many are calling #GamerGate a silencing tactic."

Arbitrary break 3

That's just about the demographic shift, but these articles are discussing who is a gamer and how the handling of these demographics is a core of the issue. Somner's criticism concerns how the data is being used, stating that women are gaming now but gravitate towards separate genres. Are we required to find an article that explicitly uses the phrase "identity politics" to the exact letter? I mean, look, this is already in the Wiki article: "Other topics of debate have included perceived changes or threats to the "gamer" identity as a result of the ongoing maturation and diversification of the gaming industry."

How can the wiki say that the debates involve the gamer identity, but then go on to say that Gamer Gate has nothing to do with the gamer identity or the politics thereof? YellowSandals (talk) 18:49, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

How many articles state gamergate is misogynistic, demonstrates misogyny, is affiliated with it or emulates it? How many bring up the topic of the gamer identity? This is the basis of due weighting. If 99 articles say A, it's not reasonable to present 1 and say it's actually B. Depending on how much mention a topic gets determines if it gets a few words, a sentence, a paragraph, an entire section, and therefore reasonably also affiliated with the inherent definition. I don't see where it goes on to say it has nothing to do with the gamer identity; what I do see is that it has stated, somewhere in its body, that this issue has been brought up or debated. If it has more widescale coverage than what is being suggested in the article, please provide this documentation to support your position, as I'm sure support for the definition of misogyny will be provided if it hasn't already. As far as literally stating the term "gamer identity," realize that you're arguing against the use of the term misogyny, despite the fact that exact term appears in nearly every article on the topic.

Additionally, the current introduction says "concerns ingrained issues of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community." I realize this is outdated and other proposed changes have been given. What I wish to draw attention to is that it is stated concerns ingrained issues in the community, not that Gamergate is a misogynistic movement, nor that gamers are misogynists. For all that can be taken from this introduction (and even what I thought when first reading it), Gamergate could be a reaction to and/or movement against this issues. The exact relationship between the supporters of Gamergate and accusations of misogyny is defined and made clear throughout the narrative provided by the article rather than by the introduction.

Rest assured I'm not trying to tell you off nor dissuade you. Rather, I'm saying that you very likely going to need all your ducks in a row to affect a change like that. AnyyVen (talk) 19:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I would also encourage YellowSandals or others to read our articles on varieties of criticism and possibly some specific forms of criticism, such as art criticism or literary criticism. These fields do have their scholars and journals (many of them even peer-reviewed) and theories, but they're not sciences in the sense that you're using it. Until supercomputers learn aesthetics and semiotics and can perform not only word counts but concept counts of millions of works of art, criticism in general will lack the methodological rigor to satisfy everyone. Until then, we have people trained to read or watch or play and comment on what they've experienced: critics. Our policies on fringe theories and pseudoscience mostly apply to actual sciences—like "alternative" gravity theorists, as you said—but they do also apply in situations where people question the official narrative, such as with moon landing conspiracy theories. The "official narrative", of course, comes from reliable sources, and that includes scholarship and news organizations. Woodroar (talk) 07:31, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The evidence for this is clearly a lot weaker than the moon landing. The moon landing has samples, photos, and experiments can easily be done today to show mirrors have been placed on the moon. How is the evidence for the official naritive nearly this strong on GamerGate? Halfhat (talk) 15:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Because the overwhelming majority of reliable sources portray the GamerGate movement in a certain way. For Wikipedia's purposes, that is the reality we present. Woodroar (talk) 21:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

So Wikipedia will present gamergate as a completely negative movement based on main-stream media portrayal? There is nothing truth-like in that whatsoever. If Wikipedia had any scruples they would go to primary sources(Twitter) and do the proper research on the thing and not cheap out by saying that the New York Times is an unbiased source of what GamerGate is.

User:SmoledMan 20:23, 21 October 2014(UTC)

Wikipedia's articles are based on content that can be verified in reliable sources and not original research into matters.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:25, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Since the media is the target of the GamerGate controversy, they can't be seen as a reliable source as they have an interest in labelling GamerGate as "evil".—Awaker81 21:39, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

A reliable source does not become unreliable merely because accusations are laid against it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:43, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Regarding that particular topic, yes it does. It's completely biased since it is the focus of the accusations. Using Op-Eds from "reliable" publications like Vox that are the target (through Polygon) makes no sense. The whole point of GamerGate is journalistic ethics and you are using the ones they are accusing, as "reliable" and unequivocally ethical. Using your logic of course the article will end up one sided, your main premise is that GamerGate is wrong. Awaker81 (talk) 05:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Except Gamergate has uncovered absolutely no violations of ethics in journalism. They harangued one website over their original concern about Zoe Quinn's Depression Quest and her personal relationship to freelance writer Nathan Grayson only for the website to come to the conclusion that because no review for that video game exists and because their romantic relationship began after Grayson wrote the only article that even mentions her or her game, that the concerns laid out by Gamergate were non-existant and unfounded. Every other claim Gamergate has against people is because of the publications criticizing them written after the movement began. There has been no evidence of collusion between the authors of the various "Gamers are dead" pieces. The only things happening in GamesJournoPros over Gamergate were discussions on how to deal with Gamergaters congregating in their forums and comments sections to use them to discuss the non-existant "sex scandal". It has focused all of its attention on indie developers who have no power and alleged that any support via crowdfunding automatically taints anything ever written about that game when any crowdfunding support is a drop in the bucket compared to the money AAA publishers can drop to send a bunch of writers for IGN or wherever to Hawaii for a Zombie Island 2 promo party. Gamergate has accomplished nothing it claims it set out to. Instead it has made at least two women quit video games journalism over the harassment they received, made at least one person give up developing video games ever again, bombard companies with vague complaints to get them to pull support from their newly invented enemies, forced at least three women out of their homes out of fear for their lives, donated thousands of dollars in spite to ensure that their 2d puppet/collective girlfriend gets immortalized, and garner the support of people far left and people far right who don't care about their core beliefs about ethics in games journalism and instead are using Gamergate to their own advantage. We should not throw out or discourage use of sources just because they have butted heads with the Gamergate movement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:36, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 4

I apologize for breaking up this discussion here, but it seems it is something that has been hashed over time and time again with no real results.

I just read through the article as it stands, and while I am not going to get into an argument about who is right or wrong, the article does have some clear issues. Let's see what we can do to make this article less controversial and/or biased.

1. The lede is not that bad, although why we have "ingrained" sourced to an opinion piece is odd. I suggest either finding a proper reference/paper concerning sexism and/or misogyny in the gaming community or remove it.

2. Backlash and social media campaign: The initial part of this section is very confusing, and it was not easy to grasp where the source came from most of the statements here. I gather some of it is from Erik Kain's Forbes article, and if so, it is misrepresented. The source claims "Moderators on forums at reddit and 4chan deleted posts and comments related to the Quinn controversy.", so "some websites" is simply wrong. Are there more websites that have been deleting posts and comment? Why don't we have sources for this? Please don't get creative with the references.

3. Role of misogyny and antifeminism: We have two separate sections bringing up the role of misogyny here. I suggest merging "Attacks on women" and "Presence of misogyny and inclusiveness", with a slight rewrite to make it fit better. "Self-policing" should be a good fit to go after this. The other paragraphs could probably stay as they are.

4. Legitimacy of Gamergate's concerns: This sections needs serious cleanup. The first paragraph, source to an opinion piece by Leigh Alexander, is not supporting the "Legitimacy of Gamergate's concerns", and should be moved or removed. The Zoe Quinn reference should be rewritten instead of being a hanger-on to the Leigh Alexander-piece.

The most significant of the paragraphs here seems to be that there was actual action taken by several websites in response to this controversy, so I suggest moving that up to the top, rewriting it as background to the other (again!) opinion pieces in support of Gamergate's legitimacy.

Now, I don't have too much time to go into more details on what could be restructed, changed and/or rewritten, but I think this would be a good first start. I could take the time to draft a new version of the suggested sections, if people agree.

Cyrenbyren (talk) 17:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Adobe pulled from Gawker

Mary Sue, The Verge, Ars Technica, Adland, BoingBoing, Frisky, Recode

It wasn't advertising with them, but Gawker was using its logo anyway, so Adobe asked them to pull it.Willhesucceed (talk) 20:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Stop making new threads on these things.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:53, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Why? Willhesucceed (talk) 01:34, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Preferably keep it in one thread Retartist (talk) 06:05, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Each article I've posted is related to a specific aspect of this. Some politics, others business, others ideology, etc. I think it's better to put them in their own threads so they don't get lost. It also helps when new sources arise; then, I can just link to the old thread that's been archived instead of having to search through the now 100+ articles. Willhesucceed (talk) 06:39, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

You could still keep it all in one thread so they don't get archived individually.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

As you can see, I've collected all Adobe articles in this thread only. Willhesucceed (talk) 11:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Your work is appreciated pay no attention, he just wants you out Loganmac (talk) 20:12, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You keep your accusations of bad faith out of this. Willhesucceed, throughout this article's protection you have done nothing but link to various news articles that discuss something in regards to Gamergate without providing any sort of suggestion as to what specifically should be incorporated. This isn't Reddit where you just post a link and then people comment on it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The misogyny is an internet problem (not a gaming problem)

IBTimes.

I'll link back to the previous sources. Let's figure out how to include something about this? Willhesucceed (talk) 02:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Nothing's been added to the article in weeks to even need to use this article to address it though.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:27, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, if we worked together, instead of against each other, perhaps we'd be able to start adding things to the article. Willhesucceed (talk) 07:41, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is we all disagree on what it should be.Halfhat (talk) 07:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Instead of clinging to our version of how we think things should be, we should be willing to make concessions/compromises, in order to have at least something in the article. I believe that's encouraged in WP's guidelines. I've been trying to meet people halfway. Willhesucceed (talk) 08:00, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem right now is that things are moving "fast" in the situation (not that there are alot of events but there is a lot being written). So it is presently very difficult to judge how to structure the article past the initial few weeks. --MASEM (t) 15:03, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to, in good faith, assume that my comment was deleted because I didn't structure it properly, being that it was my first on Wikipedia. Still, I have edited for content, in case that were the reason someone deleted me. Please do not delete me again without explaining why either publicly or privately. To reiterate...

As "fast" as things are moving, both KnowYourMeme and EncyclopediaDramatica have managed to cover the events in such a way that someone new can read their articles and come away with a sense of knowing what is going on. It is really shameful that Wikipedia can not, at a minimum, give people a straightforward rundown of what has happened. The problem here is that certain editors (I won't mention names) are determined to fill the article with opinion and yellow journalism, instead of just listing the facts chronologically.

Common sense says that you need a brief intro (the current one is poor, but better than most of the article), a section on the background leading up to this controversy (discussing the fight against SJWs in the atheism community would be helpful here, as that was a miniature preview of this fight - see InternetAristocrat's recent interview with Thunderf00t and Justicar for a summary), a dispassionate tick-tock of what has happened to date (without leaving out things that make your side look bad and with no quoted opinions), a section that enumerates the various goals (potentially with debunking and counterarguments inlined), and finally a section to gather reaction to and criticism of the movement. That would result in a very standard looking Wikipedia article, so people know where to look to find the information they want. If that can't be done, the whole page should just be blown away and replaced by external references to EncyclopediaDramatica and KnowYourMeme, as that would better serve the readers.

Finally, I think all the editors here know what has happened, even though some want to hide major parts of the story. Everyone should be looking to establish sourcing that documents the actual timeline, not just their version of it. Let readers decide what is "good" or "bad", outside of a reasonably sized section reserved for criticism. If you think pointing out death threats isn't enough to color an issue in a negative light, and feel the need to insert opinions to back that up, it might be time for you to step away from this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DownWIthSJWs (talk • contribs) 16:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

See the FAQ at the top of the page. What you're suggesting to replace the page with goes against policy on self-published sources. Strongjam (talk) 16:48, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

NY Mag on why social media easily contributes to such behavior that GG is said to have. --MASEM (t) 20:18, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. To reply to your comment above ('The problem right now is that things are moving "fast" in the situation'): and yet I'm having trouble even getting a sentence or two on Milo Yiannopoulos into the article. Willhesucceed (talk) 22:36, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The Atlantic via Yahoo! News blames a large part of it on the internet, but then goes on to characterise it as a sexist reaction to the cultural shift in games.Willhesucceed (talk) 23:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe that allegations about the internet or the gaming community being misogynist are both inadequately sourced and not relevant enough to make calls about here. We have articles about internet and gaming culture already. If judgments are to be made about those things, they should be made on THOSE articles. We can simply say that GamerGate relates to gaming and to internet, and leave generalizations about how using the net or playing games makes you hate women to be made on those articles. Right now it seems like this GGC article is being used as a soapbox for people to vent prejudices against tech-geeks, and that is not appropriate. This article is large enough and complicated enough as it is, so I think the discussion should focus exclusively on documenting the GamerGate movement. It veers too far off topic to also make statments against gamers or web-users as a whole. Ranze (talk) 10:46, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a situation where misogyny and sexism have been explicitly linked to the actions and statements of some subset of gamers. It is part of this page. This page is about the controversy. Not about the movement unto itself. That means we talk about how Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, and Brianna Wu have fled their homes out of fear for their lives, Sarkeesian cancelled an appearance after someone threatened to kill her and everyone in attendance (arguably because of the state's concealed weapons laws), and how there has not been one iota of evidence that Gamergate as a movement to root out corruption in games journalism has come up with anything, but has managed to get Intel to pull their advertising from Gamasutra.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:32, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Photo change

Can we get the photo of Quinn changed now?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Any suggested replacements? Kaldari (talk) 06:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Anything different found in commons:Category:Zoe Quinn.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:56, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Naah, its fine as it is. Furthermore i will suggest to not be in direct contact with ZQ in social media. She is not allowed to decide what picture to use on Wikipedia. --Torga (talk) 08:41, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

What is your problem?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Hey, i am not the one trying to purge the users i do not like. --Torga (talk) 09:15, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you think if I was getting my way at all you'd still be on this page? Now answer my question below on this photo.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:17, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Your personal dislike of Zoe Quinn (as evidenced by rev-deleted edits to that page) has no bearing on making improvements to the article. You are certainly not allowed to decide that we won't use a better picture of Zoe Quinn out of simple spite. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:29, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

This article has much bigger problems, it seems odd how much focus there is on this. Halfhat (talk) 08:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Its because thats what ZQ wants, and some wiki-editors have been in direct contact with her on social media, thats where the pictures on her personal wiki-page comes from. --Torga (talk) 08:49, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It's because it's a shit photo of her. They're all terrible because none of them are a plain portrait but why does it matter to you that one of the ones she gave permission to the Wikimedia Commons to host were for the sole purpose of providing a new photograph for the press to use rather than the one where she's at the games conference that she has expressed dislike over? Changing the photo should not have this much conversation because changing it to something different changes the narrative or whatever nonsense reason you're giving now.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, she has a dislike for it? Lets just ask her what she wants to remove from the article? Is there any words or quotes that she wants changed also?--Torga (talk) 09:10, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I meant. Because that one photo was the only free photo of her on the Internet, as far as I am aware she expressed dismay at the fact that it was the only photo that kept being used by the press so Hahnchen reached out to her on Reddit and said that she could provide different photos for people to use for free and that's how we ended up with the other two even if they're not the best for any god damn encyclopedic article. Now stop taking shit out of context and just tell me why File:Zoe Quinn - GDC 2014.jpg is a better photo to use than File:Zoe Quinn Car 2014.jpg.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:14, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd say the first is better, look can we just have a vote or something then move on, this article could do with massive work, this seems like a non-issue Halfhat (talk) 10:23, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It certainly wouldn't be an issue if the article wasn't fully protected unless someone actually felt the need to edit war to keep the Game Devs Awards photo in over the ones uploaded with permission of the subject.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

One of the editors....contacted..ZQ.... directly to ask her about how she wanted this page to look like? --Torga (talk) 09:19, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you see me seeing that at all? No. We wanted better photos across the project. Zoe Quinn happened to complain about File:Zoe Quinn - GDC 2014.jpg because it was constantly used by every single news outlet that didn't feel like paying anyone anything. Hahnchen sent a message to Zoe Quinn (don't use "ZQ" this isn't KotakuInAction) saying that if she provided images for free to the Wikimedia Commons, it would mean that different photos would be used in the press to depict her. We just so happen to be able to use those photos on Wikipedia because we regularly ask article subjects to provide free photos for us to use. Now why is the old photo better than any of the new ones?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:22, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it's very standard for biographical subjects to supply their own free-use photos of themselves. See WP:AUTOPROB: If the article about you has no photo, or you can supply a better one, feel free to contribute one under a suitable free content license. Zoe Quinn said she didn't like the photo of her, it wasn't a particularly good one, she agreed to supply a better one and here we are. There is a consensus that the photo she supplied is higher-quality and more suited to a biography than the previously-available free-use photo. The fact that you don't like Zoe Quinn does not permit you to reject an article improvement. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

And the article about her has changed the picture. This article is NOT about her. The current picture is better because it visualise her identity better. You can see the game dev sign in the background and in her professional enviroment. --Torga (talk) 09:37, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

What does it matter that this isn't her biography? We have better photos now. One that says "Game Developers Choice Awards" in the background doesn't say jack squat about her identity, and neither does a photo where she's drinking beer say much about her professional environment. She is at a glorified party and it's not a very good photo. We can change it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that changing the picture of her does not improve the article, nor that any of the pictures available are superior in context than the one currently used, regardless of motivation or the person suggesting the change, real or imagined. It is a centered, near 3/4 frontal body shot at high resolution in a reasonably suitable setting. AnyyVen (talk) 12:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Changing it is fine. I wouldn't use File:Zoe_Quinn_Camera_2014.jpg though since nearly her entire face is obscured. Muscat Hoe (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with changing the photo. Kirothereaper (talk) 16:04, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, the camera photo is the best one of the bunch despite obscuring her face. Even the other one she released seems a bit unflattering to me. None of these photos are very good, though. Perhaps someone can ask if she has a better photo she can release on a free license.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:12, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

We had this discussion before Ryulong and you know it, your photo suggested is of extremely unprofessional quality for an Encyclopedia, probably taken with a webcam, by herself, suggested by her. The current photo is at a GAMING event, the topic she's most associated with, of good quality and she's casually smiling and not making faces. As someone has said, maybe next time ask her if she's happy with the actual content of the article and maybe let's change that too Loganmac (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

We have better quality photos now, particularly those that the subject prefers (not because it makes her look even better). Now stop it with this garbage that this is changing the article in her favor. That is a baseless accusation. When the article protection is lifted I'm changing the photo anyway. If ther's an edit war over retaining the one that is of poor quality and is actively disliked by the subject of the photo (as it was the only free photo that got disseminated throughout the Internet when news agencies didn't want to shell out any money to Getty) then we can change it. Enough of this shit.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The place of "Ethics" in the lede

It's long past time to start reworking the lede: we're currently giving serious undue weight to gamergaters' unsupported contention that their movement is about ethics and conflicts of interest. Let's look at the five sources currently following that statement in the lede.

• The sexist crusade to destroy game developer Zoe Quinn, The Daily Dot.
• GamerGate: Everyone Hates Each Other And I'm Really Tired, CinemaBlend.
• Misogyny, death threats and a mob of trolls: Inside the dark world of video games with Zoe Quinn - target of #GamerGate, The Telegraph.
• #GamerGate: Misogyny or corruption in the gaming community?, AlJazeera.
• Gamergate-related controversy reveals ugly side of gaming community, LA Times.

Of these, none go any further than saying that gaters claim that they are addressing ethical concerns in journalism, and at this point even that is the minority: more and more sources, when they mention gamergate's 'ethics' claims, will actually take the time to debunk them rather than just noting that the 'gamergate is about ethics!' claims exist. While many sources, here and elsewhere, treat gamergate's misogyny as a given, we only have sourcing here of the fact that gaters say that their movement is about corruption. I don't argue with that, but we don't merely say that it's a movement that claims to be interested in ethics, we say that it is one, and give that statement the same weight as the far better cited concerns about misogyny. As things stand now, this is not appropriate. It really never was, to be honest, but the sheer number of recent, mainstream sources that have come out and called a spade a spade in recent weeks should make that blindingly obvious. This article gives a good summary of what some of the highest-profile publications who've talked about gamergate recently have been saying.

The last time this was brought up the discussion was derailed by vague and never-supported claims of 'anti-gg bias' in the article. So POV pushers and SPAs take note: consensus is not a vote. "Nuh-uh, it's all about ethics" no matter how many of you say it, is not going to cut it here. "This article is already biased against gamergate and you want to make it worse!!!!1" is not going to do it either. Articles where journalists cite specific examples of ethical concerns in the context of saying 'there are real ethical concerns, but gamergate is for some reason ignoring them' are certainly not going to work. We're not looking for your opinions, we're looking for sources that support retaining this unsupported claim in the article. If you want to support the claim that your movement is primarily concerned with journalistic ethics, you need to find reliable, mainstream publications that are treating your actual activities as examples of pro-ethics advocacy. As it stands the only ones I've seen have commented on how much hate has been targeted at women and how bizarre it is to attempt to control what publications say about you by attacking their advertisers in the name of 'ethics.' Provide evidence from reliable sources that justify giving 'ethics' equal weight to the movement's far better cited aims of silencing women who say things its members don't like. Not just a few opinion articles: remember, you're trying to shout time the front page of the New York Times here. Let's see some evidence that shows that the current lede does not constitute a WP:WEIGHT problem. -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

New here, but looking at the sources for the 'ethics' claim it looks to me like the statement violates WP:SYN as well. Strongjam (talk) 15:27, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'm following you, but if you mean that citing genuine ethical concerns as 'proof' that gamergate is about ethics, then you're right, without anything to link those concerns to gamergate that would be WP:SYNTH. -- TaraInDC (talk) 15:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that the statement "as well as journalistic ethics in the online gaming press, particularly conflicts of interest between video game journalists and developers." seems to violate WP:SYNTH to me. Unless I'm missing something none of those articles say anything about conflicts of interest. I think though the discussion might be better focused on what newer WP:RS have said about Gamergate. Strongjam (talk) 16:10, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

This one http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201409032102-0024126 doesn't support your claim at all, it's little more than a collection of the opinions of others. Halfhat (talk) 15:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

What claim have I made that this source doesn't support? What I'm saying is that our sources currently may say that gamergate claims to be about ethics, but they either stop there or go so far as to discredit that claim, whereas the movement's misogynistic behavior is much better supported. -- TaraInDC (talk) 15:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Just because there hasn't been any validation of the specific concerns that the proGG side has brought up about ethics doesn't mean it is not part of the issues. And even sources heavily biased against GG say, maybe not with the most pleasent language, that the proGG is based on the issue of exposing ethical issues, even if their tactics and motives are far from that. --MASEM (t) 15:37, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

More vague handwaving. Please tell me exactly which of our reliable mainstream sources you are freaming as 'the most heavily biased against GG.' Saying negative things about something is not necessarily 'bias.' Is saying 'drinking poison is bad for you' anti-poison bias? Most of the major publications we have to work with now are not 'anti-GG,' they are pro-reality.

But yes, even the 'most heavily biased' sources say that gamergate claims to be about corruption. But they do not go any further than that, and this article currently does. We're giving equal weight to two points of view that are not equally supported by the sources, and that is a problem. -- TaraInDC (talk) 15:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The issues that there is ethical and corruption problems have been identified by game journalists themselves like Leigh Alexander, etc. They know it exists (maybe not the same problems as claimed by the proGG but they will freely admit they are too close with many publishers for their own good), they want to discuss these issues with concerned gamers and fix them. But 1) they are being attacked when they wave this flag and as a result 2) other sources use this and the fact that the GG side has appeared to overlook a very obvious one , the whole Shadows of Mordor thing that happeened during the GG events, as, per their words, this is only a front over the harassment side. So the claims of ethical problems are fully appropriate for the lead and the body as they are. --MASEM (t) 16:27, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

And as I said, the fact that ethical concerns exist does not mean that gamergate's claims that they are about ethics are in any way credible. Gamergate's actual actions, the issues they are actually working against, are well cited as having nothing to do with ethics, and in fact are often cited as being counterproductive if the movement were genuinly concerned with promoting high quality journalism. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It is not our place to say if their claims are credible or not; it is clear that the issue of ethics has been raisd by these events. --MASEM (t) 17:07, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It is, however, our place to accurately report what our sources say. A majority of our sources give far less credence to the claim that gamergate is really about ethics than they do to the strong evidence that it is primarily about silencing women, and it's our responsibility to give those two perspectives the same weight as our sources do. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:15, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Masem, you cannot keep conflating actual issues people outside of GamerGate have identified with the dubious ones GamerGate itself has been pursuing. Please stop attempting to do so. Artw (talk) 17:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Game journalists are involved in GG, so yes, these issues are legit in the context of "Yes, there are ethics issues, but the GG side seems to be ignoring these" that numerous recent sources have brought up. There's no conflation here, it's part of the narrative of why many of the press are getting frustrated and calling out on GG for lacking any goals beyond their campaign of harassment (as they say). --MASEM (t) 17:07, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of this, why isn't much longer our coverage of "legitimate criticism of gaming press' ethics that GG is nevertheless ignoring"? This has been a very common opinion in RSs, that there are severe problems in AAA houses, with some news venues being thinly disguised RP departments, yet GG has been centering their efforts mostly on freelancers and indie developers; many journalists have complained about this and written about it quite extensively. Diego (talk) 17:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't follow your logic - GajerGate is about harassing games journalists so if Gakes Journalists point out problems in Gakes Journalism they are part of GamerGate? That doesn't make a lick of sense. Artw (talk) 17:38, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Wording. "Drinking poison is bad for you" vs "Drinking poison may cause medical complications or lead to death." So it is "biased" in the sense it's giving the connotation that health complications and/or death are "bad," which is vague, but negative. They aren't either: they're neutral events. AnyyVen (talk) 16:30, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, we don't say 'misogyny is bad,' do we? We, and our sources, say it exists, just as the health consequences of taking poison do. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Hey, I responded to your point. I never suggested that the article said anything about "misogyny is bad." And it's one thing for the sources to say that it exists and another for them to call for the movement to stop. I'm not saying they're wrong, or bad, or any of that, I'm merely saying it's inaccurate to assume neutrality. Nor am I saying that sources need to be neutral, which they don't, but one has to at least be aware of any potential bias. AnyyVen (talk) 16:50, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Drinking poison isn't really the best parallel, but it makes an argument. Different poisons have different effects on your body, and if you know what you're doing you can ingest certain poisons safely, so for Wikipedia to simply describe poison as "bad" would be vague, inaccurate, and a matter determined entirely by context. Any article source using a term like "bad" while failing to go further in depth would be an opinion piece due to lack of context or factual statements. Likewise, the action of misogyny is determined by context, and there does appear to be acknowledged dispute within a number of sources. As in, "Gamer Gate says it isn't about sexism". We see that enough. Still, though, the article opens by stating "Gamer Gate is controversy concerning moral badness". Probably should be changed. I know reading me say this is getting tiring, but every time I say it, I'm told that removing the vagueness and the bias is "undue weight" somehow. It's not undue weight to just change the article to reflect that the periodicals are the ones positing Gamer Gate as a harassment campaign.

And of course, before anyone objects, I still insist the article should say, "The movement has been widely criticized as misogynist due to ongoing harassment of numerous female critics and developers". Because that is the spot-on truth that all the articles are saying. It's not a destructive change, and it doesn't undermine the information already present in the article. It just removes Wikipedia's voice from the accusations. YellowSandals (talk) 17:37, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I still don't necessarily agree with your reasoning, but I do concede that Masem's proposal of describing it as a "culture war" gives an instantaneously better picture of the situation vs "a controversy involving [...] misogyny." I also agree with your sentence, at least in spirit, though I still note given the extreme due weight of the misogyny allegations, it will have to feature at least in the first paragraph, if not the second sentence. I also agree it should be able to record the progression of events without much moral commentary, and hopefully the allegations/positions of for/against can be contained in a separate section. AnyyVen (talk) 20:12, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Numerous sources state that it concerns ethics in gaming journalism and some are indeed included in the lede. The fact so few media outlets are willing to discuss those concerns or acknowledge GamerGate's involvement in bringing those issues to light is a consequence of the fact that the media are not keen on covering criticism of themselves. Even so, we have more than enough sources in the article and elsewhere to justify the current wording. Attempts to dilute it are a product of your own bias. Do not even entertain the notion that somehow you are not biased, because anyone who has seen your comments on this topic can easily attest to you being biased.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Pull the other one, it's got bells on. Nobody has been able to show GamerGate addressing actual ethics in journalism, not you, not GamerGate, and not their right wing supporters. It's not just "the media" - NOBODY is able to show any substance to this myth. Artw (talk) 18:12, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

That's because Gamer Gate is an angry, disorganized mob of people with their own factionalized interests. When there's no one Gamer Gate, it's virtually impossible to report on what Gamer Gate is or what it wants. However, the proposal in this thread does go to show exactly how wikilawyering has allowed the article to become biased in the first place. The suggestion is to remove mention of any of Gamer Gate's more commonly expressed stances because the reliable sources are dismissing those stances. Except the reliable sources have had to acknowledge those stances to dismiss them, thereby justifying mention of those stances. This "undue weight" claim has been pursued as far as it can go to make the article as biased as possible, and it's frankly ridiculous. Critics of the anti-GG side are being listed under the "Role of Misogyny and Anti-Feminism" section for crying out loud, while the article doesn't even have a "criticisms" or "media response" section. Why? The only reason I keep hearing is "undue weight", and it's a thin argument. To be honest, I think it's undue weight to represent the anti-GG sources as the sole proprietors of factual information and the only position worth mentioning.

Does this Wiki article not terrify anyone a little? The very idea that "moral wrongness" could be the only reason people would form disorganized, angry mobs and attack people. You want to represent it as a fact that these people are morally reprehensible and attacking their fellow humans just because they overwhelmingly hate women? God save us if true. Be neutral for your own sake - everyone has their reasons and you should not drive this article to try to explain them in terms of evil and moral wrongness. YellowSandals (talk) 18:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Nobody has been able to show Gamergate addressing actual concerns, except for getting The Escapist, Destructoid, Kotaku, and Polygon to change their policies, pointing out conflicts of interest with Patreon, showing that the gaming press is far too buddy-buddy through revealing things like the GameJournoPros list, and getting the EIC of Destructoid to step down for <redacted> (which nobody's reporting on, I wonder why). Willhesucceed (talk) 18:42, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

There's enough sources that point to Alexander's blog post about current problems in the industry, and pointing to the Shadows of Mordor promotional thing, to show that the industry knows there are problems. They've opened up as best they can to ask proGGers to participate to help fix. There is no clear effort that shows that offer being taken that can be identified by reliable sources (I'm sure there's a number that are). Ethics are central to the proGG side, but as RS report, how much of that is a sincere concern over just a cover for the tactics otherwise used is in question. --MASEM (t) 19:13, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, no. You cannot use an article about GamerGate not addressing ethical issues as evidence that they are going to address those issues at some hypothetical point. Artw (talk) 19:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Declaring someone you disagree with "biased" is not a substitute for supporting your argument. The preponderance of sources do not uncritically claim that gamergate 'is about ethics: the most they do is say the movement claims to be about ethics, with a majority citing information which indicates that this isn't credible. Can you cite specific sources that you feel support your claims? Don't just say they exist, show me which ones you mean. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:15, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd say that at this point there's no reliable sources describing Gamergate (or, more importantly, the controversy over it) as being about journalistic integrity. It's worth mentioning somewhere in the lead section that some Gamergate-types claim to be fighting over that, but no reliable source really seems to support that that's the core controversy here. Reading the posts above trying to argue otherwise comes across as basically conspiracy-theory stuff ("the media", as a nebulous vaguely defined group, is being attacked by GG, and therefore "the media" is censoring its true message.) But WP has to report on what reliable sources say, not on conspiracy theories about them; we can't ignore all media coverage forever just because someone makes a vague assertion that everyone we consider a reliable source is arrayed against them. And just looking at the reliable sources, there's a clear and broad agreement that Gamergate is an anti-feminist movement with a strong misogynist streak and a history of producing large amounts of harassment against its targets, who are generally female indie developers, gamers, or commentators. --Aquillion (talk) 20:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

You could change the intro to describe the debate as: "The Gamergate controversy is an ongoing cultural conflict that arose in August 2014. Beginning with a rumored sex scandal, it later expanded into a much wider dispute garnering broad media attention. The Gamergate movement itself has been widely criticized as misogynist by numerous publications due to an ongoing public harassment of several female game developers and critics."

Given the weight of what most sources are saying, I think something like this would be both neutral and acceptable - however, I'd like to point out that the entire article needs to be re-written because right now the entire thing is not only one-sided, but poorly organized. We need sections that don't try to pin the "role of misogyny" on anyone but rather ones that simply discuss the controversy in a clinical fashion with regards to what has been said and done. YellowSandals (talk) 21:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Phrasing it as a "sex scandal" in any way, even if you're prefacing it with "rumored", is not going to fly. And neither is your constant insistences that the description of the movement as misogynistic be prefaced with "the media thinks...".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:08, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

You try to get me banned for disagreeing with you, and every change I propose to the wording is shot down because it doesn't include Wikipedia describing the controversy as "misogynist" in Wikipedia's voice. You are a detriment to this article, and I feel you are actively working in bad faith to maintain a bias. If it's not appropriate to mention the allegations of a sex scandal - which have been reported on and which was the start of this controversy - then please suggest a better alternative instead of constantly insisting that nothing needs to change about the slant of this article. Be constructive, Ryūlóng. Stop sniping at everyone. YellowSandals (talk) 21:15, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Please remember to assume good faith about other users. Anyway, the problem talking about a "rumored sex scandal" is that Wikipedia articles can't be sourced to rumors. We report things as they are described in reputable sources, which seem to universally agree that the Gamergate controversy is about sexism, misogyny, and harassment, and none of which describe it primarily as a sex scandal. Similarly, at least in the lead, it isn't necessary to preface our summary of the article with weasel words about how "numerous publications" agree on this, because every article is (in theory) sourced to numerous reputable publications; the sources themselves are available further down when the article covers the subject in more detail. --Aquillion (talk) 22:23, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

There's a limit to how many flippant dismissals one user throws at people he disagrees with, and it strains the ability to assume good faith. And as for the alleged sex scandal, it is detailed in the following section regarding the individual who is concerns. The allegations are sourced. But if you want to insist that there's nothing wrong with using Wikipedia to say that a movement is about sexism, misogyny, evil, and the devil because a bunch of journalists think so, then I'm getting pretty burnt out trying to explain why it's biased and why it's not a very objective thing to do. Not even Hitler himself gets this kind of treatment on Wikipedia, but for GamerGate it's just due weight. YellowSandals (talk) 01:11, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

And honestly, "weasel words", you say. Imagine they weren't calling GamerGate misgoyny, but instead they were calling it disrespectful and petty. Would the Wiki article then describe GamerGate as a "controversy concerning disrespect and ingrained pettiness"? YellowSandals (talk) 01:18, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

If that's what the reliable sources described it as then yes, it would be called disrespectful and pety. Sources have described the movement as misogynistic and sexist. So Wikipedia reports on that same fact. Just because you and everyone else who has come to Wikipedia to argue the point that it's not about misogyny or that the misogyny is not a major aspect does not change what everyone else calls it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:59, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

So riddle me this. You hold this opinion and had a heavy involvement in writing this article. Why do you think it has the biased tag? No good reason? YellowSandals (talk) 02:14, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I spent more time on this article making sure that the references were formatted correctly than writing anything damning of the movement. You can go through the history to look for yourself instead of casting aspersions left and right.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Why do you think the article is labelled biased, Ryūlóng. YellowSandals (talk) 05:10, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Because editors like yourself who have no clue as to how the English Wikipedia properly works and have a vested interest in the controversy kept complaining that a bias existed for weeks on end and a discussion to add the tag in the first place never came to a proper conclusion to add it, but it was added anyway because the administrator who answered the {{edit requested}} tag took the lack of a consensus as to whether or not the article did not meet WP:NPOV was a consensus that it did not meet NPOV and tagged it. There is a difference between the dictionary definition of neutrality and Wikipedia's neutrality policy. It does not mean that this article is filled with content that suddenly shows a nebulous leaderless movement in a positive light when everything in the mainstream press, and the video game press that they so vehemently hate, points out vast problematic issues with it that consists of harassment and death threats almost exclusively sent to socially prominent women in the indie game dev world or those discussing video games, rather than focusing any sort of energy on their vaguely stated goals of seeking out journalistic integrity by going after anyone who actually has the money to pay for a good review other than their insistence that one woman's sex life had anything to do with a positive review that never existed, or even going after any of the men that have spoken out against them as the women have that are now run out of their homes.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:26, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

When I entered the Wikipedia page I saw that the neutrality was being questioned. It's not up to you to say if it is fair or not, or teach us the meaning of neutral. Making accusations of vested interest against other editors is also not the best way to foster a discussion.Awaker81 12:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

So what are your current goals for the article, Ryūlóng? As far as I can tell, your opinion is that the article is fine as is, and the best course of action will be to ban all disputing editors and remove the "biased" tag. So far, this has been the approach you've pursued. YellowSandals (talk) 15:33, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I think my section below concerning six different points I think should be added to the page qualify. And the best course of action is to make sure that single purpose accounts, that is accounts created and utilized for the sole purpose of editing this page and its talk page like yourselves, do not continue to stagnate the article and push a POV that "Gamergate isn't about misogyny so get rid of it in the article and focus on something that we want it to be focused on". You, YellowSandals, have done nothing on this page except pick on the misogyny aspect by making the incredible jump that an article that defines something as having misogynistic tones, as pointed out by reliable sources that aren't the ones that every single Gamergate supporter says is biased against them because they posted "Gamers are dead" pieces and have spent all their time attacking the publications and their largely female writing staff, as meaning that "Gamers are all misogynists" which is never mentioned on this article. The article is neutral according to WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. The tag should be removed once the article begins to rely more on news sources like Time, WaPo, NYT, BBC, CNN, etc. and less on all of these sources that are constantly decried as biased for the reasons I previously stated.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:39, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You are jumping to conclusion on the single purpose accounts, I just had never felt an article was in a such a poor state before, so I had never bothered to register. This is my login, period, and I would say your accusations aren't exactly a very good first impression about the way Wikipedia welcomes new editors. —Awaker81 05:55, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Felicia Day doxxing

From the Guardian, she was doxxed after posting a support piece for the antiGG side. (Also gets into the Adobe/Gawker thing) --MASEM (t) 15:35, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

A bit off topic but I'm somewhat confused as to why the Guardian has given an insane amount of coverage to this Halfhat (talk) 15:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Guardian from my experience tends to be a more tech-savvy paper as well as having readily adopted to the new media model, thus letting them publish more online. But we shouldn't assume that the volume of coverage from a paper that is otherwise sufficiently independent from the video game industry is unreliable or the like (just to stave off those arguments). --MASEM (t) 15:52, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting, I'm yet to see any other of similar magnitude that has done more than a couple covering it. Halfhat (talk) 16:01, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Was this a serious question? A leading female figure in gaming circles who as subjected to the same misogynist crap that the rest of them have been. This is what the primary narrative of Gamergate is becoming. Tarc (talk) 15:58, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe Halfhat was refering to the Guardian's overall GG coverage, not to the Day doxxing. --MASEM (t) 16:20, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

This has been covered by Think Progress too. Chris Kluwe's statement in response may be of note as well. It's also a nicely colorful statement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Per discussions above, it's not at all clear that a think tank is a reasonable source for BLP related content. The Guardian source is a much higher quality source, and sufficient for establishing due weight. aprock (talk) 17:56, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It mostly repeats the content in the article by The Guardian, and we already include content from a conservative think tank. Why should this liberal one be any different?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It shouldn't. I would suggest staying away from think tank generated content. They are in the business of persuasion, not reporting. aprock (talk) 18:13, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

This story does not warrant much attention at the moment given the minimal coverage. We could justify a sentence possibly, but even that is probably pushing it a bit. I note with interest that Ryulong is not complaining about Masem posting a link without suggesting content additions.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:21, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's because all the shit that happened yesterday made me change my approach. And the story is brand new so it makes sense that there's not that much coverage yet but it's starting to get there now. This seriously only happened within the past couple of hours. Don't dismiss it yet.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, and the media are looking at Kluwe's rant (which is much more scathing of proGGers) and seeing not a drop of complains from the proGG side, and drawing the conclusion in their reporting on what the actual purpose of GG is. --MASEM (t) 19:05, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

What is also telling is that Kluwe...who made waves a few years ago by calling out sexism and homophobia within the the NFL locker room...hasn't been doxxed and harassed in similar fashion to Day and the others. Tarc (talk) 19:22, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Not relevant to the article until a robust secondary source speaks to that. aprock (talk) 19:25, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Primary source; “None of you fucking #gamergate tools tried to dox me, even after I tore you a new one. I’m not even a tough target…Instead, you go after a woman who wrote why your movement concerns her,” and secondary; "Many have pointed to the immediate doxxing received by Day to underscore the differing treatment experienced by men and women who speak out against gamergate." for starters. Cowardly harassers know that even an NFL punter would wipe the floor with them. Tarc (talk) 19:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian is a fine source. Sourcing directly to tweets published in the secondary source is ok, but not to other tweets. aprock (talk) 19:49, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, nothing from Gawker should be considered generally reliable on this article anymore except for noting the opinions of Gawker or its staff, because they are far from being a third-party in this situation. Not just because of Nathan Grayson or Patricia Hernandez, but because of Leigh Alexander, Sam Biddle, and Max Read. People who are staff for Gawker or regularly write for Gawker are intricately woven into this controversy. Their views are not outside views. As it stands, this story with Felicia Day is basically a footnote or a minor incident. Someone in a comment section posting doxx in a controversy where people's doxx have been getting posted left and right on all sides, sometimes with the same individual doxxing both sides, is not really a huge story and I believe that is reflected in the fact it is getting minimal coverage outside the usual suspects.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian is reporting on it. Just because Gawker is reporting it does not mean it's not a relevant event when it's barely a day old. And, again, the claims that pro-GG people have been doxxed are only anecdotal online and not reported, as far as I am aware. We are not throwing out the biggest video games website from reporting on things because the movement claims they are biased against them when it is their behavior towards the website that hs put them in the precarious situation they caim it exists in.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It is not about bias, it is about independence. Gawker was never independent of this controversy, but always a subject of it. We would not treat Fox News or MSNBC as reliable sources on their own reporting or on controversies in which they are central subjects and the same goes for Gawker. Should we include mention of Felicia Day it should be a very brief mention of like a sentence, unless sufficient sources arise to present it as something more significant. At the moment this appears to be a flash-in-the-pan incident of minimal relevance to the overall subject.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:16, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, that's only because the story dropped less than 12 hours ago. We should include that after she raised criticism about about Gamergate, her alleged personal details were posted soon after. And we should include Chris Kluwe's response on how he was even more critical and vocal than Day but he was seemingly ignored. This is covered by The Guardian. This is covered by the other sources I posted above. There are more and more and more (Gawker, yes, but deal with it) sources covering this.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:25, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's say this gets reported on a lot, how can it be attributed to GamerGate? A person on a comment section, called Heloise by the way (not even a male name), describes Felicia's address. Responsibility attributed to GamerGate? This is getting crazy, every single "evil" act is now attributed to GamerGate without the minimal fact-checking. Awaker81 06:15, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Felicia Day writes a post critical of Gamergate and then an hour later someone posts her address in the comments section. Do you honestly think it's not related to Gamergate?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:23, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Your sources are not reliable by the way. Complex? An Op-Ed from the Washington Post? It seems everything antiGG becomes automatically reliable. Awaker81 06:34, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You are picking out two of the things I found in a search 8 hours ago as a means to completely discredit me?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm picking sources you presented as reliable, but aren't. Does that discredit you? Yes, but that's your own fault, next time don't post random sources. —Awaker81 09:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

There's The Guardian, Time, the International Business Times, etc. More than enough sourcing. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:44, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The sources only say that the doxxing was made in the context of Gamergate Controversy not that it was made by Gamergate supporters which is what you are implying. Awaker81 09:49, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

And thus dawns the realization that there is no way to separate or disown anything from an unorganized, anonymous and leaderless "movement" which has no barrier to entry other than the ability to type a hashtag.

The documented history of GamerGate supporters making such attacks is indisputable. When someone writes something anti-GamerGate and is then anonymously attacked because of that writing, it is not a difficult or unreasonable leap to associate that attack with those who would likely disagree or feel wronged by what was written. Making evidence-free conspiracy theory claims that those anonymous attacks are "false flags," "victim playing" or a "hoax" is unconvincing to anyone outside an ideological bubble. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:25, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

When it's added, we can be clear that we have no identity of the doxxers, but it came an hour after the GG post, which the press is making the occum's razor conclusion that it was likely GG. We just cannot saying 100% assurance that it was GG at this time. --MASEM (t) 06:27, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

If the press says it's related to Gamergate then Wikipedia can say it's related Gamergate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:29, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

If the reliable sources says so, which isn't the case. The Guardian just reports the facts, that she was doxxed after speaking, not that the harasser was a supporter of GG of any other accusation, and this wikipedia article shoudn't imply anymore then the sources reported. Awaker81 09:44, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The Mary Sue makes the connection and specifically states that someone from the GamerGate movement was responsible. It was literally the second source I read after Gawker, which others have an issue with. Woodroar (talk) 10:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian also makes the connection:

“ The publication of Day’s details is being seen as further strengthening the criticism that Gamergate’s partcipants are pursuing an anti-woman agenda, which has seen female game developers and journalists harassed and threatened, while male critics have been almost untouched. ”

NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:36, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian only states that publication of the details "is being seen as further strengthening..." it doesn't say it was the act of a gamergate supporter. Awaker81 10:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The connection is implied, but clearly so, and is not original synthesis. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

So now some random contributor on the The Mary Sue is a reputable source? Amazing.... Awaker81 10:46, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

And now The Washington Post makes it perfectly explicit. Gamergate targets Felicia Day after she expresses fear of being targeted. These intimidation tactics — rape and death threats, publicizing personal information such as addresses and phone numbers, constant harassment on Twitter — have become de rigueur for a movement of gamers, nearly all men, who operate under the auspices of exposing an ethics conspiracy in gaming journalism. In actuality, it is a crusade against feminism, feminist critiques of games and gamer culture, and diversifying said culture. We can stop arguing over the sources now. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Unless they have some source proving it was someone who was pro-gg, wikiedia can't say that it was a pro-gg person who did it, just that it happened after she talked about GG. 75.118.132.58 (talk) 15:36, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

First I would like to know if these articles are even editorialized. The "reporter" posts in the entertainment section, and her articles are not a shinning example of reporting excelence. I just discovered Renee Zelwegger had a surgery gone wrong.... Awaker8112:41, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Lol, you're now questioning the editorial integrity of the Washington Post? Yea. I think your stay around here is going to be a bit brief. Tarc (talk) 12:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm posing a legitimate question. Is that section editorialized? Laugh it off if you want, fine by me. Awaker81 12:58, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

It is under editorial control. "Editorialized" means something else by the way. If you want to take the question up further I'd suggest WP:RSN is a better venue. Strongjam (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Are we drones? We do not state something as fact just because one journalist is not showing due consideration to the uncertain nature of an allegation, even if that journalist writes for the Washington Post. Looking over the coverage, most sources do not even really pay much mind to the doxxing. It is basically a footnote in the articles. Many focus more on what she said and the reaction, which is honestly just more of the same. A prominent woman in gaming could stub her toe then blame it on GamerGate and you would have like ten articles immediately crying misogyny.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 15:05, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

We are not here to second guess The Washington Post. The publications have mentioned the doxxing and its relation to the Gamergate movement. And don't you start victim blaming either.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:47, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Recognizing that some things have nearly become a "I win" button, that can be used by anonymous people on either side of the discussion (not the victims) to shut down all criticism is not victim blaming, it's a logical acknowledgement of reality. Fact checking is still required before you start accusing a person or group, fact checking is not victim blaming. Here is an example of fact checking in the WP —Awaker81 06:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

That's not really "fact-checking" though — it's not asserting that anything previously published is wrong. It's (properly, and finally) getting some GamerGate supporters to speak on the record, but it doesn't (and isn't written to) "refute" anything previously written in the Washington Post. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:14, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say it was refuting previous articles. Here is another one, from yesterday in IB Awaker81 06:20, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

More criticism of the press

Mirror "the mainstream press have almost exclusively focused on the abusive side of the campaign"

Motherboard Some writer basically going, I'm not going to compare Gamergate to ISIS, but I am. Still a few interesting quotes. "It’s how you end up with dozens of GamerGate explainers that all say the exact same thing." "I am not about to compare GamerGate to the Islamic State, but there are unfortunate similarities in how the media treats both." “Random people tweeting awful things is not news” "in many cases, those stories don't serve a newsworthy interest" "There's no risk in denouncing the movement" Basically holds Gamergate isn't newsworthy but clickbait journalism makes it so.

Willhesucceed (talk) 19:30, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Note that the Mirror article does not exactly call the media coverage wring in that. Far from it in fact. Artw (talk) 19:37, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Add that the Mirror is, for WP purposes, a tabloid paper and one to avoid. --MASEM (t) 19:39, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

To borrow a bit from Inigo Montoya, I do not think those articles say what you think they're saying. Esp the Mirror, which points out that what the pro-Gamergaters' argument boils down to every time is "but but it's not US that're doing the harassing! WE'RE the concerned-for-ethics Gamergaters...THOSE GUYS out there are the harassers!". Know what they call that? The No True Scotsman fallacy. Tarc (talk) 19:45, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The bulk of sources we've seen here being presented as critical of press coverage are the same. Artw (talk) 19:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Though I'm pretty sure that we can at least present the argument (if sourced, I think I remember seeing it, but have to look) that the proGG have questioned if the coverage of GG is unbiased because the very journalistic sources are the ones that they are questioning (eg you can't be your own judge, jury, and executioner). This as a claim, not a fact, yet. --MASEM (t) 19:52, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I note we haven't used any of Milo's pieces yet. As opinion at least, they're fine. He's criticised the press. Willhesucceed (talk) 19:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It's rather convenient to argue that "everyone is unfairly biased against us, except for those who are for us." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:02, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It's also convenient to stretch things to "everyone" in order to make an argument, but Gamergate isn't arguing that the whole press is unethical, just that Gawker (Kotuku), Vox Media (Polygon) and some others are. Awaker81 10:34, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, there's been a ton of arguments on this page that basically every negative article written about GamerGate is "biased" in some way. You don't control GamerGate, so I'm not sure how you can make the flat statement that "Gamergate isn't arguing" something. As mentioned before, anyone who shows up waving the flag and saying whatever effectively is GamerGate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:44, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

WRAL Techwire

"The majority of the blame for this situation lies squarely on the shoulders of the reporters who are willing to compromise their integrity for perks."

"[Gamergate]'re not wrong in their main supposition"

"Except the response from the gaming media and associated outlets has been so overblown they’ve actually made #GamerGate important. Major players in the space are so intent on protecting their cash cow that, in an attempt to squash the movement, they’ve negated any shred of journalistic integrity they might have had."

Willhesucceed (talk) 20:20, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Yea, that author is a real piece of work. A week a go he hosted a reddit AMA, and his primary piece of advice is "find the gays, the women, and the transgendered" to sell Gamergate for you. I touched on this sort of thing in an earlier thread; you (the collective GG "you", not you in particular) can't just dig up token minorities to help shield your group and sell your narrative. Tarc (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Potentially, he's saying he thinks there are extremists speaking for the LGBT community, so he's recommending that GamerGate be inviting to the LGBT community so that they speak for themselves and challenge some of these claims of bigotry. What's your point, Tarc? YellowSandals (talk) 01:53, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Actual discussion on content to add

The past two weeks have seen this page full of threads pointing to new news stories that had ocme out and vague suggestions as to the content that should be added to the article at some point. So as the article will be unprotected within 24 hours (I think) we should just cut the crap and explicitly state content that should be added in the two weeks that things have stagnated:

1. Milo Yiannopoulos's leaking of GamesJournosPros, the creator's "I probably did some things wrong but it's not bad", and the media's general big shrug over it

   Sources Forbes: The Escapist #GamerGate Forums Brought Down In DDoS Attack, The Week: Intel's awful capitulation to #gamergate's sexist thugs

2. WikiLeaks's support of GG, and perhaps The Verge's criticism of the support seeing as they're still the only people reporting on Wikileaks' latest tweets in the first place

   Sources The Verge: WikiLeaks is winning over Gamergate with a confusing Twitter campaign

   This Turkish news site seems to be going "Wikileaks is using Gamergate as a marketing opportunity" but I'm not 100% sure on the translation or if they can be considered a reliable source. Most out there about the latest series of tweets from Wikileaks has been just portals pointing to the piece by The Verge.

3. Anita Sarkeesian's death threat at Utah State University

   Sources CNN: Anita Sarkeesian forced to cancel Utah State speech after mass shooting threat, BBC: Feminist video-games talk cancelled after massacre threat, The Guardian: Feminist games critic cancels talk after terror threat

4. Felicia Day's harassment & Chris Kluwe's response

   Sources The Guardian: Felicia Day's public details put online after she described Gamergate fears, The Daily Dot: Felicia Day's worst Gamergate fears just came true, TIME: Felicia Day Writes About #GamerGate, Gets Information Hacked

5. Brianna Wu's death threats

   Boston.com: Video Game Developer: Twitter Rape, Death Threats Forced Me From Home, VentureBeat: Game developer Brianna Wu leaves home after receiving death threats for speaking out in support of women, The Guardian: Brianna Wu and the human cost of Gamergate: 'every woman I know in the industry is scared'

6. Adobe Systems pulls ads from Gawker

   The Verge: Adobe's symbolic pro-Gamergate gesture frustrates victims, ArsTechnica After #GamerGate tweet, Adobe distances itself from Gawker “bullying” [Updated], Business Insider: Adobe Pulls Gawker Sponsorship After A Writer Tweeted A Joke About Bullying In The Gaming Industry

And in addition, this piece from Metro Canada may be useful as a general reference in the article.

Are there any other points or events from the past two weeks that have garnered attention that aren't addressed here yet?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:21, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Brinna Wu [8] leaving her home after threats. Strongjam (talk) 20:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Added Wu.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The reaction from Adobe also seems to have caused significant response. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] (last one is Guardian, regarding Felicia day, as above) AnyyVen (talk) 20:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Added Adobe.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

• Adobe needs to be included, as do the other advertisers who have pulled out.
• Criticism of the press needs to be expanded.
• How internet culture factors into this is important.

Willhesucceed (talk) 20:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources for the "criticism of the press" content and the culture aspects?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Sure: internet and criticism of the press

They're involved topics, so we'll need to discuss what sources are saying, what to include, etc. Willhesucceed (talk) 20:58, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

As I've done above, and as others have before you, could you pick out the sources in question you want to use to support your proposals instead of vaguely pointing to the previous threads you made?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:04, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm tired. Can't do this anymore. IYou didn't even think to apologise for trying to get me banned from Wikipedia. Not only have I been pretty much the only one trying to make this article more nuanced than MISOGYNY, but I've had to deal with near-constant harassment from you, Tarc, and TRPoD on top of it. I'm not going through all of those sources and forming a submission, only to have it shot down and my time wasted again. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm giving you a clear opportunity to provide the information such that it can be easily accessed and easily used to write about. I've included issues on both sides of the debate here, as best as I can at least, and I am just asking you to provide exact citations for content you want to add rather than making me do the leg work on your proposal. Just go through your old threads and pick out two or three citations for each point you want to make.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Another general relevant piece from The Guardian, perhaps on the role of journalism in the debate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:15, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

As a suggestion for before, let us try to stay to mainstream highly reliable sources (and if necessary for clarity, other VG sources) to avoid the issue of claims about the bias in this article. That means things like the Daily Dot, Gawker sites, Forbes articles from contributors, etc. we should not use immediately, in favor of using the major newspapers that have been ID'd. That means, for example, we can't include the GameJournoPro stuff with just the sources given above, but the other points (Wu, Sarkeesian, Adobe, etc.) can be. And let's try to avoid any analysis itself at the present time and stick to clear facts with minimal quoting save to support the facts (ek why Sarkeesian may have cancelled here USU engagement). These facets are undeniable facts of the case and should be clear to add with strong, undisputable sourcing. --MASEM (t) 22:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Can you make an attempt to spell the names right?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The difficulty with mentioning Adobe is that, by their own admission, they weren't advertising on Gawker. So in terms of symbolism, non-advertiser requesting that Gawker remove their logo isn't exactly a big deal. That it got some coverage makes it of interest, but it doesn't seem particularly significant. - Bilby (talk) 23:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It's that they were influenced by the GG crowd that journalists took as the story, not so much the pull/lack there of. --MASEM (t) 23:39, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Which gives it a degree of relevance, but we're still stuck with the "non-advertiser decides to remain non-advertiser" issue. :) It doesn't seem to warrant much weight, if any - Intel certainly warranted coverage, because they did pull a campaign, but Adobe seems far less significant. - Bilby (talk) 00:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

When we include that with the Intel bit (and if any other major ad pulls come up), it shows what some of the press have described this as, that the proGG side has had some "victories" in getting some companies to swing this way by working the "consumer" angle, and that we can add that other members of the press (even those not associated with the affected sites) see this as bad moves by these companies. --MASEM (t) 06:31, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm inclined to pull back on the Intel coverage - we spend a lot of time attacking Intel's decision at the moment, and while some criticism makes sense, it can be reasonably reduced. Toss in some of the other names that we can source, possibly throw in Adobe (even though they didn't technically pull advertising, so it seems like a bit of a hollow win), and add some more direct criticism of Disrespectful Nod per Washington Post and other sources which are discussing the more questionable aspects of what GGers are doing here. - Bilby (talk) 07:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

So what about the Day and Kluwe stuff? We good on that?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:05, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Instead of adding mention of every single female who ever complained about alleged harassment HERE perhaps that could be split off into a separate article. The GGC is a more specific thing than -womens and strife in gaming- and it bloats the article to discuss particular cases here. Only the initial case (surrounding the conflict of interest with reporters) should be mentioned since it directly relates to GG. Ranze (talk) 11:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

"every single female who ever complained about alleged harassment" Seriously? These are all specific example of actual (not alleged) harassment related to Gamergate by reliable sources. Per WP:DUE these cases should be in the article. Strongjam (talk) 12:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Columbia Journalism Review has an article up on Gamergate, might be useful to talk about how the media has a hard time covering nebulous movements like Gamergate. Not sure if it's WP:RS. Strongjam (talk) 12:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That article has one of the better ways to describe what GG is and to describe why the media is having a problem with any good coverage of the proGG side. --MASEM (t) 14:12, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Telegraph's "to date" summary. I think the last para is a great summary of the situation as we should approach it: "What does GamerGate want? We don’t know. Attempts to engage with those involved often turn into rambling, cyclical shows of defensiveness with no concrete reasoning. Reasonable party lines are drowned out in the conversation. One thing is clear: when members of the games industry are being driven from their houses and jobs, threatened, or abused, it makes GamerGate’s claim that it is engaged in an ethical campaign appear laughable." (As long as we are clear this is the media perception, not factual). --MASEM (t) 15:09, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

"Role of misogyny and antifeminism"

change the heading "Role of misogyny and antifeminism" to something more neutral like "Critical Responses" or "Criticism" As they sound more neutral and don't violate WP:BLP by implying that Christina Hoff Sommers and others are misogynists or antifeminists Retartist (talk) 22:19, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The section is used to contain all critiques on the misogyny and antifeminism seen in the debate, and her refutation belongs under this header. It is not a BLP violation by any stretch of the policy that her presence is a BLP vio when to be honest she has been called antifeminist in the past.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Then "Critical Responses" or "Criticism" could still be viable while being more neutral and saying a similar thing Retartist (talk) 22:35, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

As the person who created that section, I assure you this was not the intent. The section is literally for discussing the "role of misogyny and antifeminism" in the controversy. We could change the heading to "Debate about the role of misogyny and antifeminism" to make it clearer that this is the purpose of that section. I do not feel that is necessary, but it would address your concern.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

 Works for me Retartist (talk) 23:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

 Works for me It's a step in the right direction. Is this how I use this button to also agree with something? YellowSandals (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

 Works for me Willhesucceed (talk) 01:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Agree Still Criticism sounded better, and I hadn't noticed but the Christina Sommers picture under "role of antifeminism", without stating Sommers is a feminist could lead to people misreading it. Loganmac (talk) 20:53, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Stop ignoring all of the discussion that's taken place long before you posted your comments here. Putting all of your {{works for me}} and {{agree}} in a row is not going to change the fact that there's no consensus for Retartist's proposed change and there's no consensus to add "Debate about the" to the section title. There is nothing wrong with including a free photo of Christina Hoff Sommers in the article in the only location she is even vaguely mentioned. People can read her article to discover her personal stances, because it is established that she is critical of third wave feminism and most third wave feminists consider her anti-feminist.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:05, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

No, "Role of misogyny and antifeminism" works just fine, seeing how we're talking about the roles of...wait for it...misogynists and anti-feminists. Also, please don't waste admin's time by making controversial protected edit requests, this template should e used for routine maintenance type of things. Tarc (talk) 00:32, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

>WP:BLP implying that Christina Hoff Sommers is a misogynist or antifeminist Retartist (talk) 00:41, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

>mfw you don't realize that Sommers has been described as anti-feminist in the past

>mfw I have no face

—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:57, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Top kek Retartist (talk) 01:13, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You do not have the slightest idea what "BLP" is, what it applies to and what it does not. Again, do not waste the project's time with the "protected edit request" template for anything but routine, non-controversial edits. Tarc (talk) 01:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content--WP:BLP.

I believe that putting her under this section with this title violates this point here Retartist (talk) 01:13, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Nothing in the heading or the article text suggests that Sommers is misogynist or anti-feminist. Rather, the heading states that misogyny and anti-feminism play a role in Gamergate... which, as per the reliable sources, they do. There is no claim of guilt by association, biased, malicious or promotional content. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay. We need to clarify something. Do you honestly believe the average person wants to be viewed as as a misogynist who is against equal rights for women? Are you seriously assuming it's normal to be associated with misogyny? YellowSandals (talk) 02:08, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time she is not being associated with misogyny. Just because this article describes the movement itself as misogynistic does not mean that any single person is being called a misogynist and certainly not because one person's photo happens to be in a section discussing the misogyny that has been documented.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

In fact she only appears in the last section, and even gets first mention, which I think is somewhat of a credit that one of the few publicly noted supporters of Gamergate gets first say. I agree that I don't think anyone reading that section would draw the conclusion that she's a misogynist: it says that's she's disagreeing with that accusation being directed at the movement. I think if anything, the statement "disagrees with the criticism" is a little cryptic as to what "criticism" it's specifically referring to. AnyyVen (talk) 02:27, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Captions need to be short and to the point.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:33, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't mean the caption, I meant the first sentence in the section: "Author and scholar Christina Hoff Sommers disagreed with the criticism leveled at gamers, in a video she released through the American Enterprise Institute." What criticism is she disagreeing with? All criticism, or just the misogynist accusations? Maybe I'm being pedantic but it doesn't seem to flow well. AnyyVen (talk) 02:46, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think it was part of a larger thought at one point and it was just split off. Or the criticism is described later in the paragraph. It can be fixed/clarified when the protection ends.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

BLP does not protect people or groups from being described in ways they don't like, if those descriptions are reliably-sourced, attributed and given proper weight. That individual people choose to associate themselves with GamerGate does not mean that criticism of GamerGate as a whole can be construed as a personal attack on that person in contravention of BLP.

The lede of the article describes the controversy (remember, this article is about the controversy, not the "group") as involving misogyny and anti-feminism. This is impeccably sourced — there is literally not a single source which claims that misogyny and anti-feminism aren't issues being debated in the controversy. We then have a section heading entitled "Role of misogyny and anti-feminism" which includes the predominant viewpoint that those two things have become associated with GamerGate, to the detriment of any ability to reasonably and dispassionately discuss the hashtag. We also present Sommers' view that there isn't misogyny and Berlatsky's view that misogyny is everywhere, not just in GamerGate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

While the existence of misogyny is a fact the actual weight of the misogynists inside the group is definitely a debatable question, which leads to "the role of misogyny". It's not the same thing having a group where all are misogynist and a group where the minority is misogynist. Why do people try to make this about extremes? Awaker81 12:10, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to turn this into a forum, or conduct OR, but I think enough responses have at least validated this. I understand your concern and you're certainly not the first nor last to have it: Gamergate says it is about journalistic ethics and condemns the harassment, but almost all reliable secondary sources say this is a sham and the group harbours serious misogynistic issues. Herein lies the issue: almost all secondary sources are talking about misogyny, making that the biggest issue as far as Wikipedia is concerned. As for why, condemnation isn't really a proactive measure is it? And to be honest, look at the two issues here: one is about journalism to do with video games, and the other is women receiving death and rape threats after having their personal information uncovered, not to mention bomb and school massacre threats, regardless of the claim "oh but that's not gamergate." Is it really reasonable to complain the media is giving undue weight to people's lives being threatened versus a liberal bias/conflicts of interest/whatever in video game reporting? This is like complaining to a teacher when someone spreads rumours about your mother, and replying "oh but I never asked him to" when someone claiming to be a friend of yours stabs him in the eye. There's a certain rift in the severity of the issues here: it's called unclean hands. And as wonderful as it is that Gamergate then states it condemns the harassment, there's issues with that. First, it does nothing to stem that activity, which appears to still be occurring. As noted, this is also the issue with open membership and lack of leadership, so who's to say they aren't part of Gamergate when they claim to be? And seriously not helping is the fact that many Gamergaters then immediately begin accusing the victim of false flag operations, which at best looks exceedingly insensitive, and at worst is victim blaming. The same secondary sources that state Gamergate is misogynistic also typically mention all of these facts. It isn't wikipedia trying to lend this slant to the movement: it's the media at large addressing what they see as the most severe issue and what they also see as the failure of Gamergate to appropriately respond and distance itself from this activity. Please don't respond to this accusing me of being "antiGG," because I'm not, nor am I "proGG." I think there are serious issues on both sides and that the whole thing is a mess. I would like to see more legitimate reporting on the activities of those against the movement, because as at least another editor has stated, there is no reason to paint that side as impeccable, but I also don't question the validity of considering violent threats to be more important that video games not being reviewed appropriately.

[edit]In reference to this exactly, GG "isn't in this" - and is unlikely to - to win the war of public opinion. NOTE TO ADMINS: If this violates any WP policy, please remove and notify/warn me immediately. AnyyVen (talk) 15:05, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

A profoundly backwards suggestion, taking agency for the harassment away from gamergate and leaving it the province of those to criticize. The misogyny is why gamergate has news coverage, it's not solely an aspect of criticism. Protonk (talk) 03:25, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Reminder that the proposed change is adding the word DEBATE in front of the title of that whole section Retartist (talk) 03:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

"Debate" implies that the question of misogyny is a matter of speculation (Protip; it isn't). Tarc (talk) 03:46, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The weight of misogyny in the group is definitively a matter of debate, although many people try to spread the idea that it doesn't matter if 0,1% or 100% are misogynists. Protip, it does, since there are also crazy feminists and the whole group isn't reduced to their actions (which is logical and what should be happening with GamerGate) Awaker81 12:27, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

"The weight of misogyny in the group is definitively a matter of debate...". I'm afraid that it is not. What we have is the weight of reliable sources vs...you, a red-linked single-purpose account with only a dozen edits under his belt, all to this page. I'm pretty comfy going with the former. Tarc (talk) 12:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm certainly not the only one in this page defending a more balanced view, nor do the reliable source say that gamergate supporters are all misogynists, so the "vs me" is unwarranted, not to mention resorting to Ad hominem. Awaker81 12:44, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Drop the stick, the article does not say "gamergate supporters are all misogynists", both the article and WP:RS say misogyny plays a role. The article is always going to say that as long as WP:RS say it. Strongjam (talk) 12:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I think we are getting side tracked. I was questioning the usage of "Debate". Adding "Debate" does not imply that it doesn't have a role, of course it does. It just means that the role is open for debate, which it is. Awaker81 13:04, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Except there is no evidence of there being a debate over it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

• Sources clearly talk about misogyny and antifeminism and it's sensible to use that title. See my comments in #Remind_of_what_WP:UNDUE_says above. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
• oppose suggested change - it is not an NPOV issue to represent the misogyny and anti-feminism related in the controversy as multiple reliable mainstream sources do. in fact to hide the the misogyny and anti-feminism aspects would be an NPOV WP:UNDUE violation in reverse. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I've deactivated the {{edit protected}} because the full prot expired yesterday. However, it seems that consensus hasn't yet been reached, so please exercise caution when editing. --Redrose64 (talk) 08:46, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Problem With Using (strictly) Secondary Sources

Has the attention paid to gamergate by reputable secondary sources been a part of the public discussion on gamergate? If so, the secondary sources we're using, while reputable as secondary sources per se, are primary sources for the gamergate controversy. This article is ostensibly about that controversy, not gamergate itself. I suspect a lot of the alleged neutrality issues could be resolved if we used discussion of the coverage of gamergate (ie, meta-analysis) as a source tertiary to gamergate itself. The challenge then is finding reputable tertiary coverage. Quodfui (talk) 22:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

There actually is very little primary sourcing for this, as nearly every story, even mainstream, has thrown their opinion in while weighing on the facts. There might be a couple tertiary articles (and that's what we are trying to write too) but even the tertiary articles that try to summarize events include their own opinions. That why we are looking to use more fully independent secodnary sources (mainstream news) to provide sourcing instead of dependent (VG-related) ones. --MASEM (t) 22:54, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I would have no problem with using opinionated but reputable sources if this were an article on gamergate. Sources that are secondary commentary on gamergate are a part of the gamergate controversy, so to source from them in an article on the gamergate controversy is to use them as a primary source on the controversy. It's like if we cited CNN news reports on the Malaysian Airlines crash in an article on media reactions to the Malaysian Airlines crash. The CNN report is a secondary source when used to talk about the Malaysian Airlines crash, but not when talking about reactions to that crash. If this article is in fact about secondary reactions to use of the gamergate hashtag, it seems inappropriate to cite secondary reactions to the use of the gamergate hashtag. It's actually rather an easy problem to solve - just remove "controversy" from the title. Quodfui (talk) 00:11, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I mean, I ended up here because I was trying to figure out what some posts my friends made on facebook were about. As it stands, the article reads like it's about both the hashtag and the controversy, so a renamed article would be no less germane. Quodfui (talk) 00:21, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

We can't remove "Controversy" as "gamergate" is an actual scientific term for a type of ant. (see gamergate). --MASEM (t) 01:10, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

We could make it GamerGate (Controversy). But I think that could be worse Halfhat (talk) 07:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

It previously was GamerGate until CamelCase wasn't enough to differentiate it from the ant.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:15, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't follow any of the logic here. Protonk (talk) 03:45, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe the argument is: "A source that says 'ABC happened regarding X' is a secondary source for topic X. A source that says 'ABC happened regarding X, which shows that X is a terrible thing' is additionally a primary source for the controversy over X, as it is an original statement contributing to the controversy." I do agree that it may be useful to separate GamerGate (Hashtag) and GamerGate (Controversy), but I don't see there being enough content to support entirely different articles. That separation would mean preferring sources secondary (or tertiary) to the involved parties to define the facts of GamerGate, then preferring sources secondary to the media flap over it to get into the controversy. I think we're going to find precious few of the latter at this stage in history.TuxedoMonkey (talk) 19:44, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Felicia Day - Another victim needs to be added to article - Also more sources for claims of misogyny

GamerGate has another victims: Felicia Day.

Sources:

• The Guardian - "Felicia Day's public details put online after she described Gamergate fears" Also says the movement is being called "anti-woman"
• CS Monitor - Gamergate: What Felicia Day says about misogynistic cyberbullyingAnother RS calling GamerGate misogynistic
• TIME - Felicia Day Writes About #GamerGate, Gets Information Hacked "Though #GamerGaters claim that they are policing ethics in gaming journalism, a small but loud subset of the group has lobbed misogynistic threats at women who play, create and critique games, some even making threats of murder and rape."
• ThinkProgress - "Actress Felicia Day Opens Up About GamerGate Fears, Has Her Private Details Exposed Minutes Later" Weakest source, but still RS

Article currently fully protected. Will need to be added after that expires. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:12, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The Time article is new, but this is addressed in the #Actual discussion on content to add thread I started earlier.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:27, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for missing that. The walls of text are hard to slog through. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:29, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I guess yesterday when you said you were done you meant 'for the day' or 'with the noticeboard' then? Ranze (talk) 12:28, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Not a forum, if you have a problem with another editor take it to their talk page or WP:ANI. Please keep focused on the article. Strongjam (talk) 12:36, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Time states that the group that is misogynystic/sending threats is a small subset, that must be included in the article. CS Monitor is editorial, thinkprogress is a bit biased for an RS Skrelk (talk) 05:49, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

It's minimal and they're the only publication, albeit the biggest publication, to make this statement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:58, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

It's by far the most reputable source, it basically states the obvious, and still you fight to suppress the fact that the harassers are a minority. Why?—Awaker81 10:10, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You can still write a largely neutral article from largely biased sources. The most important things is stuff like keeping out overly emotive language. Halfhat (talk) 07:53, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The Christian Science Monitor article isn't an op-ed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:29, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@Skrelk: See WP:BIASED. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 14:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

EvergreenFir, I'm not clear on the politics here, but are you the admin who is presiding over this article and ultimately deciding what changes to make? Thus far, I note that, because "due weight", you would like to establish that GamerGate is misogynistic, solely to blame for their misogyny, and also responsible as a group. You would like to convey these things as facts, written in Wikipedia's voice. Using other articles to establish that some of these assertions are actually opinions in dispute with other perspectives is "bias". Is this a fairly straightforward assessment of the situation? YellowSandals (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Not to bring up yet another claim that everything is "due weight". I'm hearing time and again that the sheer number of articles calling GamerGate "misogynist" trumps any chance to neutrally analyze the subject beyond that slander. I understand. I'd just like a clarification on your stance, here. YellowSandals (talk) 15:23, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@YellowSandals: You can answer that first question yourself. Also, Wikipedia is a tertiary sources that reflects reliable sources. What is said in Wikipedia's voice must reflect those accurately. Reliable sources call GamerGate misogynistic, so must we. I think WP:TRUTH is a good essay here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 15:26, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

It isn't slander if it's true. Tarc (talk) 15:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

We absolutely cannot take that attitude. We know everyone in the press and their brother calls them misogynist and we're going to include that this is how the GGs are seen by the majority of sources, but we cannot presume that anyone involved in GG is misogynist. --MASEM (t) 15:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I appreciate your continuing work to keep this article from spiraling too far out of control. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 15:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You're reading too much into that. Chillax. I don't want the article to say that specific people are misogynist, no. What I am in favor of is reflecting how reliable sources report on the overall "Gamergate" movement, and right now the sources are generally on the side of "it is misogynist", and not the "but ethic" sidebar. Our sandal-clad SPA said above "I'm hearing time and again that the sheer number of articles calling GamerGate "misogynist" trumps any chance to neutrally analyze the subject beyond that slander", and I was specifically rebutting the claim that such statements are slanderous. Tarc (talk) 16:12, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the way this article is currently written, and discussion on this page goes, is that the line between fact and what the majority of sources claim is fact is not well made, and we really need to be careful on this in any further rewrites and additions; We (as WP editors) can't say GG is misogynist, but we can say that GG is seen as misogynist by nearly every press source. It is typically down to a matter of word choice, but that's what we have to be very careful of, and the statement above is an example of something that doesn't reflect the care we need to take. --MASEM (t) 16:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I am new to Wikipedia editing and if I knew where to look to understand the exact bureaucracy of altering a protected article once a consensus is made, I would have looked it up instead of asking you. I'm aware that other admins are involved with this page, however - I'm just not sure how it works and I saw that you made an arbitration previously. I do also note that your opinion is that "scholars" have declared that "GamerGate is intrinsically misogynist". I'm not entirely sure which scholars you're referring to, since the controversy has been mainly contained to periodicals and those opinions are expressed by journalists. If you're expanding into social models that claim all of society at large is misogynistic, I encourage you to check Wikipedia's article on scientific modelling. To quote from that page, "despite their inherent falsity, they are nevertheless extremely useful."

The emphasis in bold is mine. It's important to remember that, just because a model exists for a subject like misogyny, that does not make a claim of misogyny strictly accurate or factual. It is possible to report statistical data or specific findings, but all models have flaws and many subjects of analysis deviate from those models. It is of core importance in scholarship to be able to recognize that models are not fully accurate, and it is dangerous and wildly inaccurate to report any modeled data as being without deviation. Even when doing something as mundane as collecting soil samples, the researcher will state where they collected these samples from and attempt to make an assessment of how the actual soil composition of an area may deviate those values expressed by the collected data.

So how is it that these claims of misogyny have somehow escaped this quite scholarly method of explaining where the data has come from and how it was achieved? How is it "due weight" to represent these claims of misogyny as facts to be repeated in Wikipedia's voice, when instead the article should be reporting specifically who is making the claims and why. This article has not been written in a scholarly fashion thus far, and it requires revision. I do not request that undue weight be given to GamerGate's stance, and within my latest suggestion for a revision I make no mention of any of GamerGate's positions what-so-ever. I merely ask for a clinical, neutral approach to structuring this article. YellowSandals (talk) 15:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@YellowSandals: I assume that's directed at me. I didn't mention scholars though. What data are you talking about? This seems non sequitur. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:08, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Under an edit request, you responded, "Ryulong is correct that scholars have argued it is intrinsically misogynistic."

But thus far, scholarly articles on GamerGate haven't really emerged. Most of what we're relying on are opinion pieces, with the strongest sources being those from Time and Forbes who are doing secondary reporting, discussing what is being said by Gawker, Kotoku, and other publications directly involved in the controversy. What I'm being critical of is the broad assumption that, just because many journalists are saying that a movement is "disrespectful and ingrained with hatred towards women", that doesn't necessarily make it a factual statement and nor does that mean that misogyny is the reason for GamerGate when a thing is misogynistic based on context. In fact, in most cases, being called misogynistic is considered a slur or a slander.

I'm trying to wrap my head around why a contextually-based insult is being represented as the core of a controversy. Are you using a social model to make this assessment? It's one of the few explanations I can think of. But if you're using a social model, even one developed by scholars, it's important to remember that models are not accurate if the situation deviates from the model's expectations. For that reason, claims of misogyny, even using a scholarly model, still need to be discussed with reference to where and how that assessment is being made. That's why I keep insisting that this article needs to state that the periodicals are making these claims for the reasons they express, rather than simply representing the assertion of these periodicals as foregone conclusions. If the context of GamerGate is being mistaken here, which may very well be true, then GamerGate is deviated from whatever model is used to determine misogyny.

If GamerGate had unified leadership that was directly stating their goals were to hate and disrespect women, then yes, it would be factual to say that misogyny is the core of the controversy. As it is, though, it has been exceedingly difficult to say, objectively, why this controversy came to be continues to be for an extended period. Many sources say they believe the issue is misogyny, but nothing confirms and our sources acknowledge that GamerGate disagrees. YellowSandals (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The "Ryulong is correct that scholars have argued it is intrinsically misogynistic." wasn't about gamergate, but about whether anti-feminism is misogynistic, and this is veering into WP:FORUM territory. Let's try to stay focused on the content of the article, not the closed talk page sections. Strongjam (talk) 16:42, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh. Sorry, my mistake. I misread the context of that statement. However, it does still highlight that Occam's razor is not being used to write this article. If, for example, we must assume anti-feminism is also misogynistic for this article to make sense, then the article is clearly not being as concise and direct as it needs to be. The readers needs to be able to grasp what this controversy is about without having a prior understanding of those assumptions or theories placed forth by scholars not directly related to the controversy. Otherwise the article is veering into jargon, which will lead to confusing and misinterpretation, especially if the jargon is a word that means something completely different to the uninitiated. YellowSandals (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

For example, in statistics, "significance" refers to the deviation of data from its expected values. If a statistical set has data with a high deviation, it is considered "not significant". However, to the average person, significance is a word that means "importance", which can sometimes lead to confusion because insignificant data may still seem important to someone who doesn't understand statistical analysis. It's issues like this which may be why I'm even here arguing my stance in the first place. Perhaps I have a completely different understanding of what "anti-feminism" and "misogyny" means because I'm using a layman's interpretation, and if so, it would appear I'm not alone. YellowSandals (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The article describes several instances of women involved, directly or peripherally, with video games and video games journalism being attacked, often in a way that is directly related to them being women, such as several graphic threats of rape, often including their home addresses and telephone numbers, just to get the point across. Several men who have spoken out about this have not received anywhere near this level of abuse, and that includes actor Wil Wheaton (not presently addressed in the article or in reliable sources AFAIK) and former NFL player Chris Kluwe (presently a suggested addition to the article in multiple locations on this page). That has led many observers, both in video games media and in mainstream media, to remark that Gamergate supporters have a streak of misogyny in their midst without acknowledging this or doing the absolute minimum of removing those people from their midst and instead proclaiming "that's not what we're about" and the like. Jesse Singal covered this exquisitely in a post he made on Reddit which later became this piece for New York magazine. Gamergate can say it's about ethics and rooting out corruption in journalism all it wants but without proper leadership, centralization, or manifesto there's nothing the media can do to adequately cover this, and instead look at everything that has been done in the name of "Gamergate" and see attacks on women for being women with opinions and have no power other than a lot of followers on Twitter, a complete abhorrence to video games that go outside the norm and focus on more contemporary topics of mental illness and sexuality when these are drops in the bucket compared to how much money games like Destiny make on release, and nothing concrete as to what they have accomplished other than make several video game news websites kowtow and add things on crowdfunding to their regulations for writers.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Also take a look at my response to Awaker81 under "Role of misogyny and antifeminism," above. AnyyVen (talk) 17:15, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

But we have no sources saying that GamerGate confirms, "Yes, this is about hating women". We have sources saying it's really hard to understand what GamerGate wants because everyone is saying different things. We have sources speculating on what GamerGate appears to think it's doing. Numerous sources say they think the issue is misogyny, but they can only state that they think that's what the issue is. If you're using inferences to arrive at the conclusion that GamerGate is, factually speaking, about the hatred of women, then you're doing primary reporting. YellowSandals (talk) 17:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That's not the point here. The point is that while #GamerGate supporters can go on and on about how "that's not what we're about, ignore those people" but that does not stop people on the outside looking in seeing all of the misogynistic acts done obstensibly in the name of #GamerGate and coming to the rightful conclusion that #GamerGate is in part misogynistic. There is no central person in #GamerGate to go "We are not about misogyny". Read Jesse Singal's piece. He investigated #GamerGate as best as he could, going to r/KotakuInAction and 8chan to see if the people telling him "it's not about misogyny, we want to talk about ethics" and found thread after thread spending all of their time and energy into talking about Zoe Quinn, Brianna Wu, and Anita Sarkeesian. When there's no leader or decided goal, there's no one to make a definitive statement on matters. So stop going on and on about "these people only think it's about misogyny and #GamerGate has never said we hate women". That is not going to change in this article.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:31, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't mean to be so difficult about this, but understanding what the core of this controversy is about happens to be part of the problem, and perpetuating it as a moral crusade is likely only maintaining the lifespan of an ugly mob battle. The dispute involves accusations of misogyny as a core element, but within our sources we see GamerGate disputes the claims. Harassment is also a core issue and we have factual accounts we can and should report about there, but as for the motives, we have conflicting accounts and speculation. We're ascribing motives to a group that has expressed unclear motives - just a mob, basically, with each individual in it for their own reasons. It's appropriate to give great depth to the moral accusations being laid against GamerGate and to explain why they are being made, but no secondary source can confirm the strict veracity of those claims, so it's inappropriate to establish those claims as being facts which we can state in Wikipedia's voice. YellowSandals (talk) 17:36, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Drop the stick, the article does not ascribe motives, it just says misogyny is involved. This accurately reflects reliable sources. If you have specific wording in the article that you feel violates WP:SYNTH and ascribes motive where inappropriate then start a section clearly outlining what, specifically, needs to change, and why. Referencing WP:POLICY where appropriate. We've veered far enough off topic in this section. Strongjam (talk) 17:45, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Under synth, here's an example: "The United Nations' stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, but since its creation there have been 160 wars throughout the world."

Compare to: "GamerGate says it is not about misogyny, but since it began is has harassed numerous women."

This article opens by stating the dispute "concerns misogyny" and it includes headers specifically referring to misogyny and anti-feminism. Although the material below said header goes on at some points to criticize the data being used to draw this conclusion, the way the article is worded and organized implies misogyny and anti-feminism as an established, factual basis for aspects of this controversy. Could we even just change the opener to say "concerns of misogyny"? As in, "It involves concerns of ingrained[1] sexism and misogyny in the gaming community, specifically revolving around the ongoing harassment of several female game developers and critics."

But then do include a section establishing that the periodicals of concern acknowledge the dispute from GamerGate, though they dismiss them. I am trying to find a compromise here - the wording in this article is very sloppy and implies things it shouldn't, and there is a great deal of resistance towards changing it. I feel like I'm not carrying the stick when I'm the one who keeps trying different tactical approaches to this issue, and the dispute against what I'm doing is a virtual unfaltering brick wall. YellowSandals (talk) 18:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind: the issues of misogyny as it relates to GG existed before GG; there are sources we have that say that the industry knows fully well it has unintentionally fostered a misogynistic attitude (see, for example, the issues of getting female game devs, and irregardless of her opinions, Anita's are well-respected by game devs as "oh crap, that's our fault that looks that way"), which may or may not be connected to the larger "misogynistic" nature of the Internet at large (again, other sources), but as a result, the actions of GG in a area that has known to be misogynistic is being considered misogynistic by sources. So it is relevant to understand that we are not speaking solely to the misogyny that is implied to the gamers, but to the industry (devs, pubs, gamers) as a whole for some time. --MASEM (t) 18:09, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Here's the thing YellowSandals. WP:SYN only covers actions taken by Wikipedia users and not the sources themselves. Sources describe misogyny as an aspect of #GamerGate and Wikipedia repeats that same description. The #GamerGate movement can go on and on about how it's not about misogyny and instead about journalistic ethics, as Jesse Singal covers, but that does not stop him and other journalists from seeing the constant attacks on women who aren't even journalists. However, it may be useful to clarify that the misogyny takes the form of the harassment as per your suggestion.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:12, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You really aren't going to budge. No matter how many concessions I make, you're going to continue to hold out for the whole pie. It seems like you honestly could care less what people think of the article or about how useful it is. You've decided on a strictly-worded, slanting narrative and you want the article to follow it or no dice. YellowSandals (talk) 22:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Because you are asking for things that cannot be dealt with or that people do not agree with. I'm just the only one actively responding to you. You have alleged that Wikipedia users are violating WP:SYN when that is not the case and I've given sources that point out that discrepancy that you are comparing to the wording at WP:SYN. Wikipedia is not creating the novel connection that "Gamergate says it is not about misogyny but people are attacking women". That is what the sources are saying. That is what people are observing on their own and reporting on it and we are using those reports for the article. You claim that you are here to produce a neutral article, claiming that you have experience on other projects, when you have done nothing but put forward suggestion after suggestion to skew the article in favor of the Gamergate movement, constantly alleging that it slanders the very thing you say the article is covering, when this article is not about the Gamergate movement. It is about the controversy that the movement is a part of.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:25, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I suggested this: "It involves concerns of ingrained[1] sexism and misogyny in the gaming community, specifically revolving around the ongoing harassment of several female game developers and critics." Just in case you missed it.

You are so wrapped up in this opinion of this controversy that you honestly look at this proposed re-write and honestly think it's unfairly biased in favor of GamerGate. For no other reason than because it says "It involves concerns of misogyny" instead of "It concerns misogyny". My suggestion doesn't even state anything GamerGate would want to have expressed on their behalf. It removes Wikipedia's voice as well as the details about the gaming press. I am basically handing you a victory with a single word in my favor. "Of". Because I say the controversy involves "concerns of misogyny", I'm biased. Really? Wasn't there a thing you just did that made some admins recommend you take a break from the article? YellowSandals (talk) 23:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

This is just bloody-minded idealism now. If you perceive a GamerGate bias in a proposed change that I suspect will definitely still lead to outcry from the GamerGate side of things because it utterly fails to mention any of their stances, then it's obvious there is no compromise to be had with you. The angle you're playing at is intellectually dishonest, and I agree that you should step down from your involvement with this article. YellowSandals (talk) 23:14, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

If we can find an article linking some of the prior controversy over the issue of misogyny and how the industry has been involved in this for a while, it might provide some valuable context for GamerGate. YellowSandals (talk) 22:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, in an actually organized section that describes the issue in a clinical fashion, that is. I know as soon as I ask to describe the issue as anything more than "ingrained woman-hating with no rational basis or opposing view", I'm just going to be chastised and shot down. YellowSandals (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

from the CSM article we should include that the gamergate harassment of Day caused twitter to change its anti-abuse policies. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:57, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That's really interesting. Do we have a source that says what those changes are? Strongjam (talk) 19:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

"Ms. Williams was driven offline and Twitter swiftly reacted by amending its policies regarding abuse." The portion is referring to Zelda Williams' twitter abuse, unless there is another mention referring to Day that I missed. TuxedoMonkey (talk) 19:12, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

ah, you are correct, a different group of trolls. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:19, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The Dish

Andrew Sullivan blogged his view on The Dish today comparing the "Gamers are dead" meme to the loss of gay culture and addressing identity politics. I thought it was pretty balanced. It's available here: [14]. Use it or not. It's up to the community. -Thibbs (talk) 21:02, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting article, but it's WP:SPS, probably best to avoid it unless a secondary source picks it up. Strongjam (talk) 23:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Suggested Format Revision

Heck with it, I will be WP:BOLD and toss this out there. Refer to the paragraph directly above "Backlash and Social Media Campaign". It makes a broad statement that several sources tie Ms Quinn's harassment to historical perceptions of gamer culture, has a string of sources at the end of that statement, then gives some quotes from those sources to flesh out the idea. I propose that many “salad of opinions” and “low information density” issues could be remedied by applying this style throughout the article, especially the latter parts. Specific example for Social Criticism: “The broadening scope of gaming comment and criticism has been discussed as a factor in the Gamergate controversy and response.” cite cite cite cite quote quote quote If somebody’s intent is to skim the article and get a sense of what’s going on, they can hit the first sentence and move on to the next section. Care needs to be taken in crafting the opening statement given WP’s voice (I avoided "maturing" or "diversifying" as possibly loaded words), but that can also draw a sharp line between WP’s voice and that of commentators. Sticking to a minimum number of salient and non-provocative quotes should also have the effect of keeping a “pile on one side” effect away. TuxedoMonkey (talk) 23:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

dead reference and unnecessary middleman page for reference.

" These statements have been denied by some users of 4chan.[44][41] " reference 41 is 404. 44 simply links to an IRC chat log here http://archive.today/Ler4O. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.208.211.136 (talk) 23:04, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I read a bit of it and it seems relevant, atleast. Halfhat (talk) 23:25, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

and the improper use of primary sourcing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

This is 44 http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/137293-Exclusive-Zoe-Quinn-Posts-Chat-Logs-Debunking-GamerGate-4Chan-and-Quinn-Respond and it seems to work. ALso there was a minor typo that prevented 41 http://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2014/09/15/derriere-le-gamersgate-un-groupe-antifeministe_4485191_4408996.html from showing up.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:36, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Another couple of sources that could be useful

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/138165-Video-Game-Sophistry-Harassed-by-GamerGate http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/games/gamers/opinion-gamergate-in-all-its-glory-30690825.html Halfhat (talk) 00:37, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Can we work the "Legitimacy of Gamergate's concerns" into the rest of the article?

It seems like the reverse of the criticism section, there's no reason it shouldn't be worked into the whole article, and would make it easier to asses neutrality. Halfhat (talk) 01:29, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

That last section needs to be revised too, but please lets take this slow. I am presently only adding things that are simple facts that we have gotten clean discussion before, but other parts we should tread very carefully. --MASEM (t) 01:35, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

And this just popped up on my news search [15]. Definitely going to be useful --MASEM (t) 01:36, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, it's just this seems like one of the biggest issues with the article, I don't mean now, but I think it's something that needs work. Halfhat (talk) 01:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

WaPo

WaPo

That led to four conversations with self-proclaimed supporters, suggested by their peers, who denounced the harassment done in the movement's name. But, they said, for them Gamergate is not about harassing women; it's a debate about journalism ethics. Gamergate critics, meanwhile, say that defense is simply nothing more than a coordinated attempt to harass women out of the game industry. In other words, the massive fight around Gamergate is complicated by the fact that two sides don't even agree on what they're fighting about.

No one denies there has been harassment leveled against supporters on both sides of the issue. There's even speculation that the worst comes from Internet trolls who don't feel strongly about either side of the subject but just want to cause trouble.

less prominent participants in the debate have reported threats, on both sides. Erik Foreman, a 28-year-old Gamergate supporter, said he received an e-mail that included his current home address, a threat to mutilate his body and an implicit threat against his family. That prompted him to call local police, he said, who advised him to leave home for a while. Foreman said he did so immediately -- though he was amazed that he had to leave his home over a debate about games.

Suspicions over ethical problems in gaming journalism grew even after the accusations against Quinn were proven untrue, because of disclosures that some game journalists had supported crowd-funding campaigns for games -- or had personal relationships with developers they covered. An article at Breitbart purporting to show a "Journolist"-like mailing list of game journalists talking about coverage didn't help matters. Failing to disclose those conflicts, many supporters said, is "disrespectful" to those who read game sites, and that's the core of what makes them so mad. Oliver Campbell, a former game journalist who's become a prominent voice on the supporters' side, said he doesn't think the majority of Gamergate supporters actually care about discussing the place of women in the gaming industry. And, he said, he strongly believes that the fuel behind the fire would go out if gaming sites adopted and publicized some ethics policies requiring the disclosure of relationships -- similar to actions that some gaming sites, notably the Escapist, have already taken. Fix that, they said, and the whole conversation could stop.

Others agreed. "That would probably end it immediately," FinnyLawliet said.

Campbell also pointed to other efforts to recast the mainstream image of Gamergate, including a crowd-funding campaign to donate money to the PACER Center for National Bullying Prevention. Some have also launched coordinated campaigns against media sites -- notably Gawker Media and Gamasutra -- to persuade companies including Adobe and Intel to stop advertising on those sites.

"Gamergate actually owes a lot of its success to the controversy. It's less that it has to be a conversation about misogyny specifically, and more that it's a fairly basic Streisand effect," he said."The more the media tells people not to look, to just go away, the more people get curious."

Willhesucceed (talk) 02:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

There was another source documenting threats to proGG people too, don't remember which. Also yet another RS sourcing to Milo's GameJournosPro articles Loganmac (talk) 17:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Concerns

We do not need 4-5 sources for non-controversial facts

In discussion of the bare facts around Sarkeesian's and Wu's sitation, which is reporting the bare facts and no speculation, we do not need 4-5 sources for each. This is a potential slippery slope that load the articles with more sources that are against the proGG side, which we don't need to support bare facts. --MASEM (t) 03:08, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• I generally agree with most of the concerns raised here, but this one should be easy to do without riling up one side or another. I don't know that we need to worry so much about added anti-GG sources shifting the article. If we find ourselves with 4-5 reliable sources supporting a position we should ask if it needs to be expanded rather than just bombing 5 sources which agree on facts. Some claims may want 2 or even 3 sources (for especially contentious claims or claims where the originating source is shown alongside some follow-up. But for the most part we should avoid citationitis. Protonk (talk) 16:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikileaks section FAR too detailed and UNDUE

[16] is a sign of the problem that the rest of the article has in that we're elaborating with no focus. Given how hard it is to find sources tying Wikilinks to this, though with some sources, a sentence or two is appropriate, but not an entire rambling paragraph that puts into question how Wikilinks was trying to show support and to a point of being almost laughingly critical of that support. This is not what we need going forward to balance this article. --MASEM (t) 03:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

That's what the source says. If you want to change it then do it. Nothing that goes into this article is ever good for you. And multiple references are fine.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:17, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

A source, compared to where there are usually a half-dozen or more for parts that we devote one sentence to. This is exactly the problem why people are critical of the article because it latches far too much on singular points of view to skew the picture. --MASEM (t) 03:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

No. People are critical of the article because it does that in a way that casts the Gamergate movement in a negative light. No one would give a shit if it was full of pro-GG propaganda.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:26, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The way you have opted to write the section, from a source that is slanted away from proGG (but not to the point of overly biased), mocks the support that Wikilinks has appeared to give proGG side (due to the oddness in their tweets); you can argue you can do that because the Verge reported it as an RS even if biased, but that's not what we should be done. That's exactly the problem here is that the article is walking the line of violating POV policy without actually doing so (or doing so in an obvious manner). We can back away from that without failing to do the job we are to do, summarize sources. --MASEM (t) 03:31, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Recent edit is better. Still a bit much imho but i can live with it. Thank you for parring it down. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:35, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Agree that is laughable, every small thing a company does that is mildly shown as proGG, gets labeled as a misogynist company in the article. Loganmac (talk) 17:12, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The word "misogyny" does not appear anywhere in the description of the WikiLeaks entry or anywhere remotely near it in the article. It wasn't even in the original draft that was twice as long as the entry is now. You're grasping at straws to discredit me, Loganmac.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:15, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Haha what, where did I even mention you. You're getting a little too paranoid man Loganmac (talk) 19:14, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Need for basic clarifications

I read this article to get a basic understanding of gamergate, starting from minimal background knowledge. There are a few areas I noticed that could use clarification. I had to go to the references to figure it out for myself, but it should be fairly simple for someone better versed in the topic to make changes so the next person won't have to hunt it down like I did. The most important instance is in the Backlash and Social Media Campaign section. When it says, "10,000 users that support GamerGate," it is unclear what it means to "support GamerGate." Likewise, the article doesn't indicate how the hashtag is/was used. What I mean by this is that the controversy surrounding the issue is so complex that it's unclear whether GamerGate is about the "critique of ethics in video games media" or the misogyny and harassment that came from some people claiming to support that critique. Of course the two are linked, but as I understand it, GamerGate is supposed to be about the policy and ethics of the video game industry, and the harassment controversy arose later, in response to the actions of some supporters of that criticism. Kludgel (talk) 03:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I have reworked the lead in that section to show whom would be prone to use that tag and, in the less cynical view, using the tag to show their support/present their case. That is a good point. --MASEM (t) 03:59, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I have reverted some of your edit. We cannot say that those who began using the hashtag were solely "concerned with journalism ethics" — that is a "fact" not in evidence, and is actually contradicted by significant evidence of organized misogynist harassment. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:08, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Right, that's fine (the version I'm looking at). At some point, we do need to reflect how the media sees the ethics arguments co-opted by other things like the harassment. --MASEM (t) 05:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

A significant number of reliable sources suggest or state that the "ethics" concerns were invented as a smokescreen.

Even disregarding those issues, this article is about *the controversy* and regardless of what GamerGate supporters would like, the reliable sources have focused primarily on the misogynistic harassment. The overwhelming preponderance of reliable sources tend to conclude that while there are ethical issues in the video game industry worthy of discussion, GamerGate's initial and continuing obsession with disproven allegations about a indie developer who gave her game away for free is a) at the very least, suggestive of ulterior motives related to women in video games and b) completely missing, if not willfully ignoring, the "real" ethical issues in the industry. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Just to add (NBSB I think touched this), there is no sourcing to say that there was a coordinated effort before Quinn's harassment - all sources even suggesting that there was a coordinated effort that had no connection to the harassment do not show evidence until after the harassment had started. I think the present background, which does show a trend that gamers were becoming disastified with the gaming press, is about as legit as we can come to saying there were ethic concerns before, but there is no way we can reasonably document it as a movement until after the harassment. --MASEM (t) 04:07, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Stop adding quotes

Please stop loading up the article with quotes that are outside the factual narrative of the history of GG, since we are never going to be able to provide anything close to balanced coverage of the topic, every "flavor" quote beyond the facts of the case is taking more potshots at the proGG side. We need to be clinically neutral, so we should be minimizing the number of quotes in this article. We can not victimize the antiGG's that have been targetted, or villainize the proGG side. Every quote added after talking about the harassment outside of Quinn/Sarkaasian is 100% unnecessary and only there to rub the fact that the press see the proGG as bad. This is exactly why this article is drawing SPAs. It's been pointed out that the es.wiki version Gamergate - which is basically our version less 90% of the quotes that are not directly tied to the narrative, is considered fair by the various proGG forums and I would have to agree with that sentiment. I'd also add that WP:QUOTEFARM is not a way to write an article.

Yes we are going to have to pull quotes to summarize the analysis of GG, but again - summarize, to hit the high points, not get every viewpoint possible. --MASEM (t) 06:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I fail to see how it is "unnecessary" to demonstrate that the Sarkeesian and Wu death threats represented a significant turning point in the media narrative, drawing widespread condemnation and the conclusion from a variety of sources that the movement is fatally flawed.

Discussing the fact that the media took significant notice of international-headline-making events linked to GamerGate does not make the article less "neutral." This article summarizes significant published viewpoints about GamerGate, and by far the most significant published viewpoint is the one I was expanding upon.

A neutral, policy-based article on GamerGate is never going to satisfy pro-GamerGate SPAs, Masem. They dislike the fact that their movement has been generally rejected and condemned by reliable sources. Our role is not to minimize their dislike — our role is to reflect the significant viewpoints published in reliable sources, regardless of whether those being criticized believe that criticism is fair or not. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:19, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

There's a reason I'm tracking the various boards, because I at least have a good idea why SPAs still keep coming here, and it is attitudes that we don't to give any respect to the proGG is what infuriates them. We're never going to be able to tell the narrative that they want, they know that, but they want a narrative that doesn't praise the antiGG side as angelic and obliterate the proGG side as a whole. We certainly can get a lot closer. --MASEM (t) 06:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, this is what everyone has been trying to say. All we ask is that the article stops reading like an attack. Even Nazism or Ku Klux Klan or ISIS get more damn respect than gamergate and they are actually classified as hate groups or terrorists. Retartist (talk) 07:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Masem, I'm getting really tired of your demands that we temper the content going into this article because it might anger Gamergate. It's not our fault that they have bad PR.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:28, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, every time you can plug that the harassment was seen as misogynic (after it's already been said 50 times over), you're rubbing it in their face. We are to be clinically neutral. This is not. People editing this need to see this. For example, this edit [17] just adding "a 1989 shooting spree motivated by misogyny" is 100% unnecessary, and is a POV addition to go "HEY THIS IS MORE MISOGYNY!" It screams that, and I'm not proGG , I'm a WP editor looking to keep our article neutral. You cannot edit this article in a manner that we can piss all over the proGG side and go "Oh, but there's no sources, so sorry". --MASEM (t) 06:42, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

We know you're not proGG. But your calls for neutrality are impossible to attain. Every source from Kotaku to CNN and BBC note that the movement is misogynistic and there's nothing that we can do to not include that in the article. GamerGate has never accomplished anything remotely close to its goals of rooting out corruption in games media and has instead made every woman in the industry and even those peripheral to video games scared to say anything lest they have to leave their home like others have. Every single media figure has pointed out the misogyny except for the conservative talking heads that have used GamerGate for their own ends.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

It is their opinion that it is misogynic. There is no hard proof that it is. So we cannot report it as fact, we report the clear common statement that GG appears misogynci, but not is. --MASEM (t) 07:14, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

It is the "opinion" of multiple news media, including highly respectable news agencies. You're kowtowing.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

We weight viewpoints based upon their prominence in reliable sources. Do we really have to go do the source-counting thing again, Masem? The media consensus keeps getting stronger and stronger and stronger, particularly after the threats against Sarkeesian and Wu. Those events drew international media attention to GamerGate and virtually no one liked what they saw. It is, at this point, a constant drumbeat and refrain and a near-universal consensus: GamerGate's leaderless, anonymous, amorphous nature makes it completely hopeless as a movement; its foundation in — and continuing attachment to — categorically-false allegations about Zoe Quinn makes it difficult to take seriously; its association with misogynistic harassment is a permanent stain that poisons any attempt to create a reasonable conversation; the issues that it's raising aren't actually journalism ethics issues (there's no such thing as an objective review, examining issues of gender, race, class and politics in art forms is bog-standard criticism and there's nothing unethical about someone giving a bad review to a game they view as sexist); and those who are interested in having actual discussions about journalism ethics need to abandon it and try something else. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:28, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Really? You're raising an objection to describing as misogynistic a mass-murder shooting spree that is widely agreed to be at least partially motivated by anti-feminism and misogyny, which ensures that readers understand the message and ideology that the writer of the Sarkeesian threat intended to convey? I don't even, Masem. Signing the threat as he did was a clear and unambiguous part of the message. There is no "other side" to that matter and there is no "balance" to be had. He signed a threat of mass violence against women with the name of the person responsible for one of the most notable examples of mass anti-female violence in recent history. Reliable sources did not fail to note that. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes I am, because we have a wikilink so that the person can go and read about it. Not every article that covered it mentioned why that massacre was important relative to that, and even the NYTimes biases that statement mentioned that the guy shot 13 women and failing to mention that several men were also shot (note, I read through the case details and understand that they clearly identified the shooter as misogynistic from his personal notes and earlier behavior, I'm not saying he wasn't). Most sources let the reader come to the conclusion themselves if the reason it was connected was due to the misogyny. It's basically OR and POV. These are the little things we can fix and do better on without ticking off the other side. I know it may seem incredibly nuanced but we have to make this effort. --MASEM (t) 07:14, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Even ignoring the bias concerns, it adds tons of bloat adds little information, and is aesthetically poor. Halfhat (talk) 14:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Tone

@Diego Moya: You have removed two sets of reliably sourced, and indisputable, pieces of information from this article for no reason. In this edit you remove "false" from the phrase "false allegations" when we have multiple sources that say that the initial allegations against Zoe Quinn were unfounded, and therefore they are false allegations. It is not a violation of WP:IMPARTIAL or WP:LABEL. In this edit you remove the description of the 1989 Montreal massacre, when both École Polytechnique massacre and Marc Lépine feature the phrase "fighting feminism". Is your contention over the word "delusion"? Because it's not like you can slander a dead mass murderer.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, you need an urgent re-reading of Wikipedia:TONE and WP:IMPARTIAL. Statements like "Marc was deluded" or "false accusations" in Wikipedia voice are the opposite of what we need to cover the topic in a detached, formal tone. If you try to push your interpretation and moral values into the article's tone, the neutrality tag will never have a chance to be removed. Please accept that your wording was not stellar and let the rest of us improve it and make it acceptable without fighting tooth and nail at every step. Diego (talk) 07:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Allegations were proven false, and Lepine is dead and buried for nearly as long as some of us have been alive. We can call his claims that he killed 14 women to fight the threat of feminism as a delusion. For example, here's History of Quebec for Dummies using the phrase "The actions of this delusional anti-feminist...". Here's the Oye! Times saying "Lépine would cross a line and see himself in a delusional manner to be someone on a mission of importance beyond his station in life".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:05, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

See WP:STICKTOSOURCES. It is your WP:BURDEN to find sources that directly support the sentence you introduced in the article (that the murder was made "under the delusion that he was fighting feminism", and even in that case it would be better attributed), otherwise what you're doing is at best WP:SYNTHESIS, at worst plain WP:OR. An aside in a "for dummies" book and a 2008 ad-based online newspaper written by volunteers ("for journalism students and others who want to express their opinions"!) without editorial review are not adequate sources for an unattributed claim in the article. Diego (talk) 08:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I can't believe you're arguing that a mass murderer who said he was "fighting feminism" was not deluded.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not. Any other ad-hominem, or can we delete your unsupported emotional addition to the article so that it can get a semblance of verifiability? (Admit it, you just googled it right now for "marc lepine delusion feminism" and posted the only hits that seemed remotely relevant). Diego (talk) 09:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

There's no reason to delete the whole thing because it is an established fact that he said he was "fighting feminism" and so what if I made that search or a similar one? It shows it's in use, even if I can't find the sources they used to write those pieces.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:20, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See? Much better now. Diego (talk) 09:25, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

"He also had delusional qualities".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:26, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Describing perpetrators of premeditated hate crimes as paranoid and delusional followed by using Marc Lepine as an example.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Those sources still doesn't support "under the delusion that he was fighting feminism". If he said that he was fighting feminism, we can write that he said he was fighting feminism. Huge difference in sticking to sources, which is important for neutrality. Diego (talk) 09:32, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Removing "false" from "false allegations" is not IMPARTIAL—it is asserting that nothing is known, and the claims might be valid. Lots of people "allege" that Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, but they don't get to do that at Wikipedia. Removing "under the delusion that he was fighting feminism" reduces the death threat to just a run-of-the-mill threat that gets made every day. The particular point about mentioning Lépinen in the threat is that he was unbalanced and enacted a hate crime against women with claims that he was fighting feminism. That is a particularly pointed death threat for a feminist planning to appear in public. The wording may need tweaking or refs, but it has to stay. Johnuniq (talk) 09:28, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

It is the wording what I'm complaining about. This article has huge problems in always using the most emotional-ridden wording and direct quotes of the opinions of anti-GG journalists, though WP:IMPARTIAL instructs us to "Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute". I removed "false allegations" with the edit summary that we "let the facts speak for themselves"; in the very next sentence it is described in detail how Totilo clarified that "Grayson had not written anything about Quinn after the relationship had commenced and that he had never reviewed her games."

Why can't we just assume that the reader is intelligent enough to notice that the claims don't match the facts? Why is there a need to force those conclusions in Wikipedia's voice? The best approach favored by WP:NPOV is to explain what the claims were, and present the evidence that contradicts them. If we would stick to using that tone, there wouldn't be a need to "defend the articles from the hordes of SPA's", the article would stand by itself - and even those SPAs would agree that the article's content would be an accurate description of what the references said. Diego (talk) 09:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Because there is no reason to imply what we have ample sources to state outright. The allegations are false and claims to the contrary are espoused only by a minor fringe. When we repeat and republish allegations of wrongdoing and unethical behavior by two people that have been thoroughly debunked and discredited, we have the obligation to make clear that they are such.

You are suggesting that we water down well-sourced facts so as to satisfy the desires of a vocal fringe group to seem less wrong. That does not seem to be what Wikipedia is about. It is hardly our fault that their movement is built around a core belief which has been proven false. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:48, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok, let's rephrase this in terms of policy so that you understand my complaint: 1) What are the inline references that directly support the following assertion: "the allegations were false"? 2) If there is a source that directly makes that assertion, why don't we either attribute it in the text to that particular source, or describe it as a widespread view? Doing that would improve the tone without any "watering down" of the facts. Diego (talk) 10:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

There are four, count them, four references for that single sentence. If you want *even more* references on that sentence, it would be trivial to add them. How many sources would you be satisfied with? "false accusations that Quinn exchanged sex for reviews" (The Telegraph), "Yet many criticisms of press coverage by people who identify with Gamergate—about alleged collusion in video games between journalists and developers or among reporters—have been debunked" (Columbia Journalism Review), "an unfounded smear campaign" (Wired), "There was no Kotaku review of “Depression Quest,” the supposed “scandal” of journalistic impropriety that allegedly touched all this off" (New York), "GamerGate faithfuls still cite Zoe Quinn and Kotaku Journalist Nathan Grayson as the motivation behind their movement, despite the allegations of collusion associated with Quinn and Grayson’s relationship being (repeatedly) proven false." (Canada.com), etc. etc. etc. etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:18, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

So, to address the second part of my argument that you have ignored, are you OK if we *follow policy* and word that as "Quinn's detractors in the gaming community alleged that the relationship had resulted in favorable media coverage, allegations that were widely seen as false by the mainstream press", or "the mainstream and gaming press described as false allegations", or some other equivalent wording? Diego (talk) 11:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

No, we follow policy by saying that they are false, just as we follow policy by saying that the accusation of rape in the Duke lacrosse case was false. The fact that someone, somewhere might still believe it to be true is immaterial — it is the widely-accepted and unchallenged mainstream POV that the accusation was false. Similarly, that someone, somewhere might still believe the accusations against Quinn to be true is immaterial — it is the widely-accepted and unchallenged mainstream POV that the accusations are false. The viewpoint that the allegations against Quinn and Grayson are true is, at this point, clearly a fringe theory adhered to only by a tiny minority. We have no obligation to present their POV as deserving of equal time or space. This is particularly important given that these are effectively-anonymous allegations levied against living people, and I contend that to present entirely-debunked and proven-false anonymous allegations about two living people as anything other than what they are — discredited and disproven — would be a substantial violation of the BLP policy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Allegations in Duke lacrosse case were of a physical action that were disproved in a judicial process, so apples to oranges. Here we have an assertion about an ambiguous criterion - "receiving favorable media coverage" - that is open to interpretation and as such can't be directly proven or disproven - it depends on how each party define what counts as facts. An assertion that Kotaku published a positive review of Depression Quest can be disproven, as there was no such review (but that's not what's written in the article). An assertion that Quinn received favorable coverage cannot, as what counts as favorable coverage is subjective.

Again, this has nothing to do with whether the facts happened or not, but with how we write about them - if the way to report the facts involves a point of view, as you recognize, the right way to write about them is by attributing the value judgement to the sources holding it. The way to debunk and prove the accusations false is by presenting the facts, not by compromising Wikipedia's detachment by adopting the values of judgement of the references as our own. We don't need in any way to present the fringe view that these were true as you suggest, but we just need to avoid asserting in Wikipedia's voice they're false, as they *are* part of a controversy and this sets the tone for the article regarding neutrality policy. Diego (talk) 12:50, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

To be more exact, because we actually spend a few sentence to explain how the accusations were disproven, we don't need to say that they were "false" - we have no idea if proGG knew 100% that they were false accusations (though clearly it was heavily speculation). --MASEM (t) 15:08, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Heavily biased...

Doing a websearch to find out what "Gamergate" referred to exactly, I come across two good explanations, but as usual I go to Wikipedia too... ...only to find an article obviously written to promote feminism. The feminist editing of Wikipedia is destroying Wikipedia's credibility as an unbiased source. This is an emberassment. "ingrained issues of sexism and mysogyny" in the second sentence, jesus christ... 129.240.71.121 (talk) 12:24, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Read the archives and assorted dispute resolution threads Retartist (talk) 12:53, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia has never been an unbiased source. We merely had some standards to write in a clinical, detached style. As you can see above, those are not valued much any more, either. Diego (talk) 12:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Diego, just let them have the article. The only thing they're doing is embarrassing themselves and Wikipedia. Go edit something else or contribute your time somewhere it's deserved. Willhesucceed (talk) 14:50, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

You have to remember, we can't go off our own observations, only what the RSs are saying, and they are largely anti. The article has some other bias issues, and it's a work in progress, but ultimately we have to go off reliable soures, and to some extent echo them. Halfhat (talk) 15:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this article is biased, but not towards the feminist perspective. It's biased towards the perspective of mainstream reliable sources such as The New York Times and The Washington Post. Pro-gamergate sources are much more heavily represented in this article than feminist sources, unless you count Christina Hoff Sommers as a feminist (which most people don't). Kaldari (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Even granting you that, a lot of the article needs rewording to make it less loaded. Further you cannot deny there is a conflict and so atleast two "sides" you can't create a descriptive account only looking at one of them. Halfhat (talk) 00:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

That's not how Wikipedia works. Our article on Evolution doesn't show both sides; our article on Heliocentrism doesn't show both sides. Our role is to report what reliable sources say. Obviously different people might characterize anything in our articles differently; but something like "this topic is categorized one way by the New York Times and the Washington Post, and another way by this random blogger" is not encyclopedic wording. If the mainstream coverage is biased or incorrect on a topic, then it's biased or incorrect; if scientific journals are wrong about something, then they're wrong. But Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, is not the place to go to try and correct what you feel to be errors in mainstream coverage. --Aquillion (talk) 02:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

What about TotalBiscuit to represent some pro-GG opinion

He has been refereed to in various unrelated gaming stories. If we're having the opinions of nvolved people like Quinn, it seems unbalanced to not have anyone pro-GG. He also has a lot of work to refer to. Halfhat (talk) 14:20, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

It's admirable to aim for balance in things, but I think Wikipedia aims to be more of an encyclopedia, and as such should probably (?) just document the significant media coverage of this campaign rather than attempt to cover each and every view. 27.253.103.235 (talk) 14:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Poor Halfhat. Go do something better than trying to contribute to this article, i.e. anything else. Willhesucceed (talk) 14:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I actually enjoy what I'm doing here, even if it doesn't show. Halfhat (talk) 15:50, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

He would not be a reliable source for something like this. --MASEM (t) 15:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I mean for opinions rather than facts. Halfhat (talk) 15:50, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The thing we'd ideally like to have though is a reliable source that cites/quotes Bain (sorry, I cannot bring myself to call a grown man a baked good) in the context of a Gamergate article. All I see at the moment are 2 very small name-drops, one in a Forbes article and another in Brietbart. He's talked about Gamergate on twitter and reddit I see, but those are primary sources. Btw, this was worth a chuckle this morning...not being sarcastic, it was genuinely funny. Tarc (talk) 16:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

We can still use primary sources for opinion as long as they're deemed significant. I was using the fact he had been refereed to in many other gaming topics to make a case for significance Halfhat (talk) 16:05, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Unless he's referred to in reliable sources, or he contributes to a periodical with editorial oversight, we should avoid self published sources unless they are about people directly affected by the debate as determined in other reliable sources.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:02, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

If anyone attempted to actually search, they'd find TotalBiscuit's opinions referred to plenty by reliable news coverage, including TechCrunch[18] and Forbes[19]. Although his video acted as a lightning rod for discussion of the topic, it's worth pointing out that he does not appear to be a strong supporter of the movement, later clarifying/pointing out that the original video had been couched in an "if" clause (something like "if the allegations are true regarding Zoe Quinn, then it shows blah blah...") His influence is definitely part of the story, and should be mentioned and clarified better than I have here. Also I'm going to mention that I'm disgusted by your condescending tone, Halfhat. Please do not treat other users like that. It only makes yourself look bad, and invalidates anything you have said. —Pengo 23:31, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

As I understand it TechCrunch is not considered a reliable source due to poor editorial oversight. Erik Kain is an opinion columnist, and one who is already used too much in this article. We're looking for reliable sources that have referred to commentators to confirm that their opinions are significant enough to include in the article: one unreliable source and anther opinion source isn't really a lot considering the sheer amount of coverage this subject has received. There are a lot of much more significant opinion sources to choose from. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:50, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Using Erik Kain "too much" is unfortunate, but isn't really a reason to exclude an important figure (TotalBiscuit) from the article. TotalBiscuit is also mentioned in The Metro[20], where he is described as a "semi-supporter of GamerGate". —Pengo 00:21, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Looks like a quick name-drop only, there's nothing out there to establish just why this particular person should be given article-time, sorry. Tarc (talk) 00:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Hey Tarc, maybe look above, maybe you'd see that 'nothing' would be the reliable sources in proportion to WP:DUE weight. Tutelary (talk) 00:46, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll let you know when someone here other than your SPA colleagues values your opinion. This person is just a guy giving an opinion in venues such as reddit or his own twitter feed. Until and unless those opinions are picked up by reliable sources, we will not be using them in this article. Tarc (talk) 00:50, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

When you put it like that, you can make anything sound as if it's cow manure. 'Electricity is just the stuff that powers your TV.' I also do like your elaboration of good faith and civility, obviously not trying to degrade or depreciate a fellow editor's thoughts on the matter. He's received due coverage in reliable sources for such opinions and as such has a place in the article. Tutelary (talk) 00:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

"He's received due coverage in reliable sources..." is a lie. Tarc (talk) 01:05, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

[21], [22],[23], [24] (All but one of these were present in the above discussion, that's what I meant.) Tutelary (talk) 01:18, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

While he's been adopted by the pro-gamergate camp, his views are fairly specific and nuanced. It's surprising so little has been written about him, as he's a prominent public figure and reacted to the controversy quite early on, so his videos acted as a lightning rod for the topic, sparking a huge amount of online discussion. There were 24,760 comments on TB's video which addressed gamergate-related topics when it was posted to Reddit's /r/gaming. This is far more comments than the top 10 posts in /r/gaming/ ever, combined. Whether this is significant by itself, or whether his views are particularly notable or not, the reaction he caused, and the subsequent reaction to the deletion of all the comments in the above mentioned thread and related threads (presumably because the conversation turned toxic or the mods were unable to handle the flood. I can't find the official stated reason), seems to be something which should be included the overall narrative more than peripherally, as it is now. It's a shame no reliable sources have published about this event.

I shouldn't have to say this, but anyone replying, please assume good faith, something I have not observed in the editing and automatic reverting of edits in this article. —Pengo 07:27, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Bain can hold opinions but because he is not a central subject of this controversy and his opinions have not been included in reliable sources, whatever he may or may not have said is not a subject of discussion or his article.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:49, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Could we make the role of journalists into its own section?

It seems like it'd be better as it's own section rather than in the "Role of Misogyny and Anti-Feminism" section, and I think it'd allow more structural improvements. Halfhat (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't exactly fit where it is now.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:59, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Newsweek/Brandwatch article

Data analysis of #GG tweets. There's something we should be able to do with this but I don't know immediately where to put it. --MASEM (t) 17:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Was just about to post this link. Even more evidence that this is not about journalism. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:29, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Ill just step in and say something here since I work in stats, the methodology of that article is off and cannot be used to say that GG is about harassment. The stats only show this. "In the following graphic, compare how often GamerGaters tweet at Zoe Quinn, a developer, and Nathan Grayson, a Kotaku games journalist." This was not an analysis over the gamergate hashtag, but over the amount of tweets that some people were getting. We can also see that over 90% of tweets to each person were neutral, while 0-10% of them were split between positive and negative tweets. Another thing to think about is to see how much those certain people are participating in the hashtag themselves, and being covered in mainstream media. They will be mentioned more, as well as people tweeting to them who are anti-GG may be using the Gamergate hashtag. So yeah, using just the stats he has posted, his whole article is flawed. PseudoSomething (talk) 20:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The analysis does actually point out that neutrality aspect of the tweets but does come out in raw #s that the number of negative-tone tweets to Quinn vs Grayson is very different. I would not use this article to state "GG is not about ethics" but I would say that the study does show that the number of tweets toward the named females devs outnumbers those towards journalists, or something like that. There is false conclusions that we have to be careful there. --MASEM (t) 21:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Masem, ill break it down a little more since I was in a rush to get to the store.. "the study does show that the number of tweets toward the named females devs outnumbers those towards journalists". This statement cannot be infered from the article. The reasoning is that they only focused on Nathan Grayson and Kotaku (with Stephen Totillo), it didn't look into any other male journalist who were reporting (EDIT: Or invloved) on the subject. Those stats were not looked at. Not only that, but we can see from his owns stats, using the 2 million number that was given for total tweets, that Anita Sarkessian has received .004% of tweets with the gamergate hashtag included, Brianna Wu has received .005% of tweets, Leigh Alexander has received .0015% of tweets, and Zoe Quinn around .0015% (These percentages are average, using the graph given and rounding to the closest thousand). That sample size is INCREDIBLY small, and cannot be used to show much significance. PseudoSomething (talk) 21:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I do agree on that point, though your math is off (10,000 "Quinn + #GG" tweaks is 0.5% of the 2M, but still small). Still points that inclusion of this we need to take care doing so. --MASEM (t) 21:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

You are right, my math is off. The graph that he included is faulty and misleading. He includes the actual stats lower. LA is is .6648%, Wu is 1.7594%, AS is 1.7594%, and ZQ is .5% (I forgot to turn it into a percentage... I'm not on the clock so I am not worried haha). But yeah, the size of these samples, as well as considering those percentages are of ALL hashtag mentions (including those from people who are not apart of gamergate) means that his analysis is flawed and should not be used. PseudoSomething (talk) 22:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Or to put it another way, I'd really like to see their stat breakdown. They state that two of those with tweets directed at them (note - not affirmed to be #GG tweets) had more than all the male journalists they looked at, but they don't give a like - was it 2,3 or more like 50? --MASEM (t) 22:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Trust me, I am curious about the data also. I actually inquired the company that he said he got them from to see if they could release the data. With how deceptive he has been with that stats though, I don't trust anything he says about the data. What I am more curious about is what happened to nearly 15-20% of the data he asked them to dig up, since he asked them to dig up 25% of tweets from the gamergate hashtag (Which included the total number directed toward those 6? users in the graph. PseudoSomething (talk) 22:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but we don't reject reliable sources because an editor who claims to be an expert on statistics judges them to be flawed, especially when that editor is an SPA user with an axe to grind. This is because on the internet, nobody knows you don't have a PhD in philosphy: if you don't come armed with sources of your own your opinion is out of necessity given very little weight. Newsweek is a reliable source, so we can expect that they have used the data appropriately and that the conclusions they've reached are sound. -- TaraInDC (talk) 22:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong. They give enough details on there math to show that there's something incomplete and/or biased in their analysis, straight off their numbers; that's not a violation of SYNTH to reject the claims of the source - or at least not include them - if they are not clear or are suspected; if a RS put out the "1=0" claim, and we can find from the data that is fully presented that there is a clear obvious fallacy, we can reject that claim. --MASEM (t) 22:24, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I never said it would be a violation of 'synth.' Why on earth would I? The article is perfectly usable: the danger here is in accepting that an anonymous editor with an axe to grind knows more about journalism than actual journalists. It's a news story based on an academic study, but it is the study itself and the lack of full disclosure of data is not a problem here. Your eagerness to reject a source based on claims of 'anti-GG bias' is completely unsurprising, of course. But we'll see what other established editors think. -- TaraInDC (talk) 22:33, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I never said I was an expert, and you seem to be the one with an axe to grind. I am lurking and decided to comment on exactly what Masem said. So put down your axe. This isn't even based off an academic study, he request the stats from a company who parses those stats, and showed a faulty analysis. I never said 'anti-GG' bias either. I said it was a faulty anlysis, and it is. You see, you seem to be pushing a hard POV, so stop grinding your axe, and when someone makes an actually compelling argument and shows proof using the stats provided, freaking lay off. PseudoSomething (talk) 22:47, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

You claimed to be able to discredit the analysis of statistics published in a reliable source based on your own statistical expertise, so yes, you're claiming to be more of expert than the person who wrote the article, or the person who wrote the study it's based on. Nobody gets veto a source by simply claiming to know the subject better than its authors. And your account has been used soleley to push a pro-Gamergate POV on this talkpage, so I stand by my comment about your agenda. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:08, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I said I work in stats, which is why this article was interesting to me. Everything else you fabricated to try to push your POV, once again, as you have been for the past month. The thing is, you can look at his stats and see exactly where they are faulty. What he looked at can't even be used for his conclusion, since he is focused on one experiment, but says it ALL of GG. But hey, I guess you get a pass for pushing an anti-GG agenda, right? PseudoSomething (talk) 23:10, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

This is exactly the problem: you are making a claim that you are better equipped to analyze this data than the authors of the source. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works - unsurprising since your only experience with Wikipedia is on an article that's overrun by other similarly inexperienced editors all pushing the same pov: your experience on how this project operates is skewed by the poor example of other SPAs.

Put simply, you are not a reliable source. You are an anonymous editor using a single purpose account to push a POV. We don't care what your opinion is: we only care what you (or anyone else) can prove. You need to provide reliable sources and justifications from Wikipedia policy for every single change you make or argue against, and if you don't, nobody has to listen to what you say. You don't get to veto a source because you believe you are better equipped to evaluate the data it is presenting than the author of the source was. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:22, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Guess what Tara, let me break something to you, just because you have dedicated yourself to try to skew this article doesn't mean you are right. Masem can see exactly what I am talking about, and she(Or He, I have for some reason thought Masem is a woman, not sure) has been the best editor so far to this article, you instead, have pushed a POV so hard, that I am surprised you are accusing others of pushing a POV. There are 100x more reasons to trust Masem than they are to trust you. PseudoSomething (talk) 23:24, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

This is rich coming from an account that exists solely to push a pro-Gamergate bias. You like Masem because Masem coddles the SPA army and claims that its existence is proof that this article is biased. That doesn't mean that any other long time editor is going to accept your evaluation of this source and reject mine because you claim I'm 'pushing a POV.' I'm pushing for an article that observes Wikipedia policies such as WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

No, actually, I like Masem because she cares about policy even when it doesn't work in her favor, and tries to actually build the article from that. She looks at everything and makes her decision from that, and follows policy, no matter who likes it or not. You, on the other hand, try your best to eradicate any part of the article that you don't like, even if it has sources to back it up. Which has happened recently. PseudoSomething (talk) 23:41, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

These are empty accusations: my positions on this page are consistently based in policy and backed by reliable sources, and that's much more than can be said for an unfortunately large number of editors here. So by all means, keep on hurling those accusations, but if you can't back your positions with sources and policy nobody's obligated to listen. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:54, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Its 100% obvious, so stop hurling out accusations when you can't stand true ones coming back at you. I already backed it, Masem has seen it, and I trust Masem. Hell, Masem has been the person who has protected this article from bias on both sides, Im guessing the admin, Masem, knows better than you. PseudoSomething (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Masem has actually broken the three revert rule more than once to keep what he considered 'anti-GG bias' out of the article. He's really not the person to be pointing to as a shining beacon of neutrality. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

And? Weigh that with how much Masem has actually done to help the article, compared to you trying to trash the article because of your POV pushing, and we can see who we can trust more. PseudoSomething (talk) 00:06, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

That's your opinion of my work and Masem's, which is tainted by your own very clear POV. It's a running theme on this page: editor with few or no contributions outside a topic arrives on the page, declares every editor who advocates for depicting this topic the way the preponderance of sources do 'biased,' and sets about making arguments with no basis in policy or reliable sources, as you have done here. I'm just trying to keep this article from being whitewashed by editors who don't understand or respect WP policy. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::: editor with few or no contributions outside a topic arrives on the page, Like yourself? The near entirety of your contributions have been to GamerGate for the last month and some odd days. I don't believe you have much claim to complain about that. Tutelary (talk) 00:19, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope, nothing like myself: An established editor focusing on a single topic is not an SPA. Once an editor is well established with a large, diversified edit history, he or she can focus on single subjects for extended periods of time without being labeled an SPA. Try reading the whole page. As I've said several times now, aside from your semi-automated vandalism reverts, my contributions are more diverse than your own. It's interesting that you have very few contributions to this page other than your weak efforts to discredit me. Stop harrassing me, now, thank you. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

He didn't call you an SPA, your only getting really defensive over that. He is pointing out your hypocrisy over the situation. PseudoSomething (talk) 00:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

You are, obviously, unaware of this editor's past comments about my editing history. This is a completely unfounded accusation that Tutelary has made several times now. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Much of the same thing I just said. You can search the archives. But it doesn't look good when a single editor is focusing solely and intently on a single article for a long period of time and complaining that other editors are doing the same. Very similar situations, yet a double standard is employed when it's your contributions rather than them. That's the point I'm trying to illustrate. .Tutelary (talk) 00:59, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Per the quote I just provided, that's not true. Now stop misrepresenting my editing history. Your spurt of edits in the last few minutes aside, your contributions here seem almost exclusively geared towards discussing contributors, rather than content. That's a much bigger problem than an editor with a diverse editing history editing one article exclusively for a period of time. -- TaraInDC (talk) 01:06, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I doubt that discussing certain editors as "SPAs" as if trying to disregard their good faith contributions is much discussing of content, do you? Even if it's speckled in with content arguments, it's not appreciated. All I ask is to stop regarding the fact that an account may be an SPA (maybe take a gander at the closed WP:AN request Ryulong filed and see the list, 70% were not SPAs) in your arguments as an attempt to disregard their argument. As the wiki golden rule says (somewhere I bet you it does), comment on content, not the contributor. I'll do such notwithstanding other editors bringing up the topic of them first, even lightly. I really hate seeing newcomers be bitten, and these contentious topics do drive new contributors. As long as they follow wiki guidelines and policies, there's nothing really harmful about them. Tutelary (talk) 01:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

It sounds like you don't really understand why SPAs are a problem, especially in large numbers - or more likely, don't care so long as they're pushing a POV you agree with. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you: your concerns for the 'newbies' have been noted, but I'm not going to stop calling a spade a spade. Now stop following me around making off-base accusations. -- TaraInDC (talk) 01:22, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe I've seen any anti-GG (or whatever position you want to call it, I know some people take fault at the 'anti gg' but w/e) SPAs contribute to the article, more pro-GG. Which sort of tells you stuff about whether they don't make accounts because the article already suits them well or that they're not as passionate, or the fact that Pro-GG see that the article is biased against them and wish to instill some type of balance. I also don't support breaking policy or guidelines, even for SPAs like you want to say I am. All I'm concerned about is fair and civil discussion; everyone's an equal, after all in here. Your position is noted as well. God speed and hope to contribute with you in the future (probably the coming hours/days). Tutelary (talk) 01:28, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Ah, there's that argument again. It's a favorite of Masem's: 'there are so many gamergate POV pushers - it must be because the article is biased! Actions speak louder, always. Saying you want a 'fair and civil discussion' isn't a substitute for showing it. -- TaraInDC (talk) 01:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong, thats a fact. You are not a moderate trying to write a good article, you have pushed this article to try to pertain to your POV, not to actually correspond with WP policy. You don't care about whitewashing, you care about trying to make a statement in this article. You have actively tried to remove LARGE sections of this article that you don't agree with, because of your POV, and that wasn't backed up by WP policy. So just own up and accept that you have a POV, because you cannot hide from it when it is obvious. PseudoSomething (talk) 00:17, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's see the diffs of my alleged content removals, please, because I think you may have me confused with someone else. I haven't denied that I have a POV: most people do about most things. I'm denying that my editing has been inappropriately biased. You can have a point of view without trying to insert bias into an article. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, where did I say you tried to -edit- something out? You have this tendency to try to change what people have actually said. Lets go back to the topic you started about trying to remove the ethics and journalistic things out. That was an obvious POV pushing that was away from WP policy, since there were plenty of sources, which is why it is still in. I think were done here now though, now that all your arguments about trying to actually help the article just got revealed to not be true. PseudoSomething (talk) 00:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Is that a 'large section of this article?' I didn't advocate for 'large sections' of the article to be removed: I advocated for changing the lede to avoid giving equal weight to the well-cited content about the movement's misogyny and the very poorly cited claims that the movement is about ethics in journalism, contending that while it is true that the movement claims to be about ethics in journalism, that is not the same thing as actually being concerned with ethics in journalism. For the former to be true, members of the movement merely have to make the claim, which they obviously have. For the latter, the movement's actual activities count, too, and the majority of our reliable sources not that those have had far less to do with ethics and far more to do with silencing women. That's a change that you may not like, but I cited policy and reliable sources to make the argument that it should be made nonetheless. That discussion was, predictably, derailed with the usual vague claims about 'anti-GG bias' in the article, but that's not evidence that my arguments were wrong: it's evidence that there is a serious problem with tendentious editing on this talk page. -- TaraInDC (talk) 01:26, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Look, its 100% obvious why you proposed that. Stop trying to hide it. Hell, I still remember your comments from like a month and a half ago where you kept saying the movement is about harassing women and nothing about ethics (That was directed at me, BTW.). You seriously cannot fool me, it is obvious you are pushing a bias. Pleaseeeee stop trying to hide it, its kinda sad. PseudoSomething (talk) 01:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is obvious, or it should be: I proposed it because the preponderance of sources are not giving any degree of credibility to gamergate's claims that it is about ethics, and in fact an increasing number are taking active steps to disprove that claim. You can yell 'I'm rubber and you're glue' all you want, but facts are facts: I'm using sources and citing policy to support my changes. It doesn't matter if you think I'm 'anti-gamergate;' having a point of view is not the same thing as being a POV pusher.

Given 1) other experienced (not POV) editors have also edit warred - inadvertently or not (and which I have admit to accidentally doing before) - and 2) there is a huge different between edit warning and being neutral and/or biased, this is an unnecessary statement and not focused on the policy based aspects of the source. --MASEM (t) 00:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I disagree: when you're being pointed to as The Neutral Editor I think it is relevant. I'll note that you did in fact completely shrug off my comments on both occasions that I pointed out your 3RR violations to you: you claim others have done it as well, and maybe that's true, but you've done it exclusively to promote one point of view while presenting yourself as an unbiased editor and claiming bias in others' editing. My point in bringing this up has been that your editing pattern has shown a stronger bias than many of the editors who you yourself have labeled biased. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring and bias are two separate things on WP and while one with bias may edit war, they are considered separately. Edit warring is a "sin" which yes, I did once on this article and have not engaged in (outside of anything that will fall under the 3RR exceptions) and which I have apologized for, but so have others; it's water under the bridge which I won't point figured to others other and will forgive those problems too, so focusing on that point is not helping your case. And tell me exactly what "bias" I have? I'm not proGG, I'm not antiGG - I'm looking to make this a clinical treatment of the issue, which is naturally unbiased --MASEM (t) 02:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

If you have apologized, I didn't see it, but that's beside the point: you are making vague complaints about 'too many quotes' and 'inserting bias' and being 'clinical' and 'detached' with no real substance. You've overused those words to the point of meaninglessness. My point, though, is simply that despite your very frequent claims that you are unbiased, your distinctly 'pro-GG' edit warring demonstrates that you are not. At the very best, you are no better in terms of 'neutrality' than any other editor and it's not appropriate to claim otherwise. Your constant vague claims of 'anti-GG' bias are a reflection of your own bias. -- TaraInDC (talk) 02:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Bullshit. I have had people (on WP, experienced editors) agree there's a biasing problem here and I am approaching it neutrally (they just refused to get involved here due to the whole GG mess to start). I am absolutely not proGG, nor do I consider myself antiGG. I can see the right middle ground that we as a clinically neutral source is supposed to take. I've been very clear on what is wrong, with specific examples that apply overall to the article. The consensus to make this more neutral is there, but only a handful of editors are trying to control the bias strongly against proGG and have not looked to reach consensus. --MASEM (t) 02:51, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Ah, you have the support of unnamed non-participants. Well done. We'll see if the involved editors at WP:RSN agree with your neutral, unbiased rejection of a major mainstream publication as a reliable source based on an SPA's claim that it's evaluating its data in a biased way. -- TaraInDC (talk) 03:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The source is not saying 1=0 or that the sky is polka dot or anything else that is obviously wrong and so you cannot outright dismiss a reliable source using a professional analytics company, because you think they are wrong and you cannot see the data they used. Thats just flat against policies , turning WP:V and WP:OR on their head! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

No 1=0? "The discrepancies there seem to suggest GamerGaters cares less about ethics and more about harassing women.". Less than 5% of GG hashtag replies were to those women (We can't see if it was pro or anti GG people who sent those, also), and much less than 1% are negative. PseudoSomething (talk) 22:57, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The reliable sources have analyzed the content and presented their interpretation. That you disagree with their sampling sizes, conclusions or whatever is irrelevant.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I don't care about the interpretation. They claimed what I quoted, but their method did not analyse anything that could come to that conclusion. They analyzed the difference in response(Positive, Negative, and neutral, which was less than 5% of all tweets and did not pull from all tweets, but only the tweets directed toward 6 people) between 6 people and then claimed that all of gamer gate is about harassing even though their experiment did not look at data that could come to that conclusion. It is a 1=0. PseudoSomething (talk) 23:46, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Since when was Newsweek an authority on statistics anyway? Halfhat (talk) 23:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

you are joking right? Newsweek is one of founding creators of the factoid data graph. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Newsweek is a reliable news source. That's really all that's relevant here. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Even granting its reliable status on this topic, I can't be happy with publishing information we know is false, even if it goes against the word of the policies I think this is a case of ignore all rules. Publishing what we know to be false will damage the article, and could even cause more anger, including on the talkpage. That said I question a newspaper's mathematical authority. Just as news sites aren't considered the best sources for science, but imagine one claiming to have done the study themselves, before publishing it only in their story. Halfhat (talk) 00:00, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Luckily, we don't know that it's false: we merely have an SPA claiming it is false based on their own independent analysis of the data presented. Accepting the word of any given Wikipedia editor over reliable sources runs completely contrary to Wikipedia policy. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Look at it yourself, it's rubbish. It doesn't even at a large number of the journalists, only a few, only one news site. And again, imagine Newsweek instead self-published a study on science, it'd never be accepted as reliable, if it was properly published experts could analyse the methods thoroughly for issues, and if found they'd be addressed. Halfhat (talk) 00:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

100% wrong. A source presenting something that is obviously factually wrong, even if everything else from that source is nominally reliable, can be challenged/ignored as a source. It is clear without even getting into detailed statistics (eg requiring no expertise in the field) that there's enough question and absent classification of the given data to beg their conclusion. --MASEM (t) 00:47, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Newsweek is normally reliable, it is the data from Brandwatch - and whomever interpreted it - that is in question. --MASEM (t) 00:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

If Newsweek published it, then we go with it since they are RS. If another RS publishes something questioning the data and interpretations, we include that. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:34, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

No, we can reject sources if there are clear problems with their conclusions that are obvious to show wrong; if the analysis to show it wrong or questionable required more expert knowledge, then yes, we'd need a separate source to point that out. --MASEM (t) 02:51, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Even if it's entirety is entirely uncontested and true, I don't believe in this sort of article can we include anything but a small mention due to it only being a single source. Tutelary (talk) 00:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. We don't do that for any other source. This is an RS and belongs in the article with due weight. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:34, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

We should not really do anything with these shoddy statistics. This is not a scientific study and its methodology and selection criteria are completely absurd. I imagine at least part of the problem is that Newsweek's staff are either ignorant or uninterested in other claims of corruption beyond the most popularly discussed one involving Grayson and therefore did not bother to include related queries in their data set. Here are two pieces providing a decent rebuttal, albeit these are not reliable sources, and a more detailed listing of various related tweets. None of that is authoritative, but it should be clear from reviewing more extensive data that this piece and its tweet analysis are utterly worthless. Since this does not appear to be getting a lot of widespread attention there is no real reason to consider this being of due weight.-The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:47, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: The main "result" is simply "Brandwatch found most tweets were neutral in sentiment", and it appears "most" (per the graph given) is on the order of 90+%. I am unsure whether the other anecdotal tidbits are usable without noting that apparent fact given in the Newsweek source. Collect (talk) 07:25, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

"neutrality is disputed"

Firstly, I'm not sure "Gamergate controversy" is even a good title for this. Probably just "Gamergate". If you want to avoid bias, changing that is probably the first step. Other media sources have referred to it as a movement within the gaming community. This is not to say it doesn't contain a lot of controversy, but that's jumping the gun a bit.

Secondly, with opening sentences like "It concerns ingrained issues of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community", this will never NOT be biased. This needs to be "purported issues of sexism and misogyny". None of that had anything to do with the concerns to begin with other than that it was being forced as a cheap excuse down the throats of many gamers whenever they disagreed with the far fetched claims many volatile and provocative people would make. In actuality, when things became ugly it was not "misogyny" any more than it was simply just bullying, threatening, harassing. I have yet to see a single motive for acting immaturely like this come from a misogynistic point of view, unless being upset with a video showcasing many video games set to an audio track of "too many dicks on the dance floor" constitutes sexism. Of course this is from my point of view and experience and as such has no weight on the matter.

However, it is 100% necessary that people who feel they have been subjected to prejudice based on their gender and their supporters do need to be acknowledged. Fairly. The way it is written currently is totally wrong for a "neutral" article. I'm not going to get involved but the article needs a cleanup - it's not hard at all to achieve neutrality. I would suggest that people work on it a bit more. Don't favor any of the extremes, whether it's an irate manchild from 4chan or a twitter "feminist" that is completely full of shit, just document what has happened.

Swim Jonse (talk) 19:23, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Please review the talk page and its archives. Every point you've made has been addressed in depth before. 1) We cannot use "Gamergate" as that conflicts with the species of ant 2) The press have stated numerous times that because the harassment seems completely focused on female game devs and their supporters that they are unable to call this as anything but sexist and misogynistic. 3) We would love to acknowledge the proGG side, but as has been pointed out in mainstream sources, it is impossible to figure out that side due to lack of organization and as such there is minimal sourcing from that side. --MASEM (t) 19:34, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

GamerGates notability is derived from it's campaign of misoginistic harassment, as such the article is going to describe that campaign. If it was about the imaginary complaints of some game forum trolls it would be deleted since that is absolutely not notable. Artw (talk) 19:53, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

NYTimes Opinion piece

[25]. Opinion piece, so obvious with a bit of grain, but this is the first one that focuses on some of the complaints about "games that aren't games" (like QD and Gone Home) and less about the harassment, and arguing on the logic that if this idea of games have to be "games", it could reverse the gains that video games have had in becoming a recognized art form has made in recent years. --MASEM (t) 21:39, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Good point. I have the sense that the medium has outgrown its roots, hence the backlash. kencf0618 (talk) 23:05, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

the tag will come off the article around November 6th

The POV tag was first applied around Oct 6th, so I believe a fair deadline for removal will be 1 month from there. Tags are not meant to remain in perpetuity just because a minority doesn't like how an article is presented. So, I'd like to see clear and concise arguments for what exactly one feels is violating WP:NPOV, and what the proposals are to remedy the perceives transgression(s). I'd strongly urge that the proposals be more than vague hand-waves of the "too much misogyny not enough ethics" variety, "why aren't we citing Breitbart more?", and so on. If the proposals do not achieve WP:CONSENSUS by ~Nov 6th, then the proposals shall be considered failed, the tag removed, and we can continue on with normal editing. Tarc (talk) 01:01, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Last time I checked there was unnecessarily loaded language in the article, it needs to be checked before it's removed. Halfhat (talk) 01:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Then make your case as to why the alleged "loaded language" is so dire that we must alert the general readership to the matter. At any given movement, there are tens of thousands of articles that exist in a state of non-perfection, there are always things to update, issues to address, matters to fix. A tiny, tiny percentage of those are actually slapped with big reader tags. Tarc (talk) 01:13, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is it encourages someone to go to one side. It's not just non-perfection, it's bias. It makes the article appear to support one view, as a trusted source of factual information this is a big issue, especially when covering an ongoing controversy. Halfhat (talk) 01:20, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is you haven't done anything to demonstrate bias, you've just claimed it exists. Demonstrate that there is an opinion or perspective being given undue weight, or find well-sourced information to add to 'balance' that supposed bias. Because as it is the closest we've had to an honest justification for the 'bias' tag has been that it's not fair that the majority of sources are so terribly biased against gamergate. Per our policies, that's not actually a problem: if we're discussing the issue the way the sources do and observing WP:WEIGHT wrt minority views, we're fine so far as WP:NPOV is concerned. -- TaraInDC (talk) 01:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

You ask me why it'd be a problem, I explain it then you rant about how I haven't shown there is a problem. I was explaining why the loaded language is a problem, and like I said, it needs to be checked, because, as far as I know that hasn't happened since the major changes were made. Ofcourse Masem brought up another load of problems. Halfhat (talk) 09:21, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I have pointed out the biased too many times to count; this article preaches the anti-GG with excess quotes and reiterating the harassment, sexism, and misogynic claims beyond what is needed to make the point, under the guise that "there will never be proGG sources to balance this so this is how we will out". It's extremely easy to see by stepping back and putting yourself in the position of a pro GG person that has not engaged in the harassment but feels there are ethical problems in journalism, and then reading this article to determine if this article is even reasonably fair, fully understanding the press is not giving this equal coverage. It's blatantly wrong, and the fact that you and others have refused mediation and even shooed off the ArbCom request means you are not here to compromise and instead push the blatantly biased point. --MASEM (t) 02:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Specific example: The base work "misog" (misogyny, misogynistic, etc.) is used 36 times on the current page, 8 of them unavoidable in reference sourcing titles. Clearly it has to come up in a few places discussing how the press spoke to their opinion of the attacks, so I can see another 6-8 times as necessary for the narrative . But that still leaves at least 16 repeats of a very negative word just because of the claim that there's no sourcing from the proGG side to counter the claim. "Harassment" is used 49 times, with only 4 times unavoidable in the reference titles. (Granted, the harassment stuff is necessary as a reference term to what happened but there's still an awful lot of extra uses). There is a POV problem with this article that is not supported by WP's policy on being neutral in this type of debate. --MASEM (t) 02:33, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Given the sources, that seems like due weight. If we are speaking about what RS say, that it's appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Due weight does not mean counting sourcing and then saying our ratio should be at that number; it's how much each viewpoint is given in sources, and it is not the case that the proGG is being ignored to a point we can bias the article and treat the proGG side as FRINGEy. The balance is way off when considering what the articles are still saying. --MASEM (t) 02:39, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The misogyny and harassment are essentially the only sourceable aspect of this event. There is next to nothing written about gamergate by reliable sources that does not focus primarily or exclusively on its efforts to silence people, mainly women, who have opinions its members don't like. The quotes, as has been pointed out, are the result of endless nitpicking about wording from numerous pro-gamergate pov warriors that have forced to put useful, relevant, cited information in a source's voice instead of in Wikipedia's. It's a symptom of bias, yes, but not the bias you're claiming. I'm sure that for a hypothetical 'non-harassing pro-Gamergater' this article seems 'unfair,' but the same hypothetical person will likely think that media coverage of the issue is 'unfair.' That doesn't change the fact that we have to represent this issue the way our sources do. The 'non-harassing pro-GGer' perspective is not a 'neutral' one, but a heavily biased one, so imagining the article from their perspective is not helpful.

For the record, the mediation requests were denied because there was no evidence of a real, actionable dispute. The editors who created those requests had not shown any good faith efforts to resolve the dispute beyond vague and unhelpful whinging on this talk page that the article is biased. And it was in fact Arbcom who "shood off" the arbcom request. - TaraInDC (talk) 02:41, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

"The misogyny and harassment are essentially the only sourceable aspect of this event." is burying your head in the sand to anything that might challenge the sanctity of the antiGG side. The journalists have admitted there are ethic issues, they want to talk about them. We can source that. We can source other reasons why gamers are update. The harassment stuff is unavoiding and key to explain the history of events and response, no doubt, but stop pretending that is the only thing that can be talked about. Too many editors show zero care for people on the proGG as human beings and simply are assuming they are trolls; some might but certainly not all. And the reason medication failed was that core players refused to participate, which is a core part of mediation. Next step is ArbCom, which you cannot avoid participation in (assuming the case is taken) --MASEM (t) 02:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Journalists acknowledge there are issues with ethics but they pre-date Gamergate and Gamergate has not gone after them. They have not criticized anything remotely resembling what happened to Jeff Gerstmann. They have not remotely criticized anything resembling Doritosgate. They have spent all of their energy harassing people who may or may not have donated to independent game developers' crowdfunding campaigns or people who were roommates and may have talked about a game. They have been going "Haha we're making these people lose all their advertisement money and now they're bad mouthing their advertisers good job journalists" when journalists shouldn't give a shit about their advertisers. They have been going "We don't care about the story just tell us if it's fun". That's all anyone can determine about the "ethics in journalism" which is still a vague attack on women due to the fact that it's only the women devs and journalists that they're haranguing. We can never "balance" this article to not be against Gamergate because Gamergate has the worst PR there can be. They are being considered by the SPLC as a hate movement. We will never satisfy the Gamergate supporters on this page because we cannot, as a neutrally written encyclopedia that is verified by reliable sources, cannot give undue weight to content that we cannot verify in said reliable sources.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

There are several things we can go into - not into great depth - but that do deal with present GG concerns on ethics. An example is that GGs want more objective reviews, which yes, mainstream sources have pointed out this logical fallacy and that you can't review games like you would a car or other utility object. But that's an ethics issue that can be discussed. The trend of "notgames" is another (eg DQ and Gone Home), which again has been countered with just that recent NYTimes opinion piece. There's others like this. You have to take off the blinders that classify all proGGs as those doing the harassing and realize we can build, albeit thin, discussion of what GG is looking for. If, based on what I've read from the KIA Reddit thread, that they are happy with the state of the es.wiki version of Gamergate, which is basically ours but lacking all the quotes and at least giving them a few more sentences to justify their points, then we should be able to do that too. --MASEM (t) 03:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, those are examples of the vague and ultimately useless things that gamergate claims to want. But as sources note, they are vague, unactionable claims, and are also given far less attention even by the movement itself than the movement's other, less respecable aims: in other words, if gamergate spends less time talking about ethics than it spends telling everyone it's about ethics, and less time doing either than it does harrassing women, then reliable sources are going to note that, and so must we.

But, regardless, saying you have changes you think should be made and that until they're made the tag must remain isn't helpful. Start doing something - actually providing sources and writing text rather than citing vague 'examples' of things you think should be done - or stop complaining about neutrality. We're not going to keep the tag in place until someone else carries out the desires of the editors who think it should remain. Anyone who is not actively working on specific changes to this article to correct what they say is bias has no place demanding that the tag remain. -- TaraInDC (talk) 03:25, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I know I could go in and make edits to remove quotes and fix other things that are excess antiGG propaganda, but 1) everyone editing this article needs to be aware that putting too much antiGG quotes and position statements is a POV issue so that we don't have to come back and re-edit to bring it back, and so that we're all working on the same narrative (given the perchance for certain editors to revert without understanding the bias issue) and 2) things are still changing in the GG situation that I don't know how best we should write the "analysis" part of the narrative that I would not want to touch anything in those areas unless there's clear placement for the information. --MASEM (t) 04:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The only reason "antiGG quotes" are prevalent is because the "proGG" editors have fought tooth and nail to ensure that every single statement by any single journalist is attributed to that journalist and not treated like any actual statement on any other topic. And what could be possibly changing in GG?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:39, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely false. The excessive quotes are added by you and the antiGG-slanted editors without any impulse needed from the proGG side. There are a few quotes in the main narrative that is necessary to assert facts (the Quinn/Grayson stuff) but the bulk of quotes added beyond that is quotefarming to villainize the proGG side as much as possible. --MASEM (t) 04:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Because we have to pussyfoot around everything we add to make sure that we don't piss off people.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Tarc starts by dictating terms, which he is in no position to carry out, and then suggests we need consensus on there being POV issues when the reality is a lack of consensus on NPOV is what really matters in this instance. I can say that the recent spate of editing since the page got unlocked leaves little room for removing the tag. Ryulong and Baranof in a series of nonsensical edits have seen fit to slant this article so far towards their own POV that it is now just one giant hit piece masquerading as an encyclopedia article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 07:06, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Is that because I added a quote from Chris Kluwe? Everyone external to this dispute is seeing that the "bias" does not exist, or rather the "bias" is simply how due weight turns the pro-GG POV into a minority view.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I know I could go in and make edits to remove quotes and fix other things that are excess antiGG propaganda, but Why make constructive suggestions when you can just complain, right? If you don't attempt to prove that the supposed bias exists instead of just claiming over and over that it does, nobody can ever prove that your arguments don't hold water! If you're not interested in actually explaining exactly what your problem is and trying to fix it then there's no point in you saying anything at all. Starting an RFC to try to establish consensus that there's 'bias' in the article when you have not lifted a finger to show us the bias or explain how you'd like it to be remedied is nothing but dramamongering. Getting a lot of people with little Wikipedia experience outside of this article to agree with your claims that the article is biased is not going to keep this article tagged when you haven't even deigned to make any suggestions. Stop wringing your hands about how the article is biased and somebody should do something and actually do something. -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I've talked and demonstrated specific elements with the bias plenty of times, you've chosen to ignore these arguments and claim there's no bias on those changes. And because this article is under sanctions, instead of getting into edit wars over changes (which I am 99% certain would be reverted), starting an RFC to get wider input (given that all other means to get dispute resolution have been rejected by those that claim there is no bias) is the least disruptive way to determine if there's consensus that there's a problems. --MASEM (t) 14:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

No you haven't. You've said there are 'too many quotes,' that we're 'piling on' by observing WP:WEIGHT, and that because there is very little in the way of 'pro-GG' sources to choose from we must limit our use of 'anti-GG' sources (that is, reliable, mainstream sources that have the audacity to call a spade a spade). Those aren't specifics. Those are generalities. What you have done for the most part is start beating your 'piling on!' drum in completely unrelated discussions, dragging them off course but never actually making any concrete suggestions that can be discussed or countered. -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

BS, those are very specific issues (and I did in fact point to specific quotes and additions in some cases). You clearly have no interest in trying to work towards consensus here. --MASEM (t) 14:26, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Where did you make specific suggestions for changes to the article? -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

In a previous discussion (which you criticized me for the same lack of specificity) I pointed out at least one quote that was a problem. When other edits proceeded to add other quotes or changes that were a problem I called those out here in question. But my point has been that it's not just one or two, it's throughout the article, and clearly in the additions since the removal of protection, that needs to be considered as a whole, since removing some quote affects the structure of the article too. --MASEM (t) 14:34, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

When called on your persistent failure to provide specific suggestions you pointed out one bloody quote. Yes, truly you have worked tirelessly to resolve this dispute. The fact remains that you have called this article biased a lot, frequently in unrelated discussions with very little effort to justify those claims, let alone rectify them. Your signal to noise ratio is abysmal: lots of complaints and next to no constructive suggestions. -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

vague statements, not found in source

games centering on social issues grew in popularity, and some of these were seen by elements of the hardcore gaming community as not fitting their definition of games
Which elements of the hardcore gaming community, and who said it? The vox source statement about the gaming community was: "the community is already primed to think that any discussion of games in a sociopolitical context means that talk of banning them isn't far behind." Statement and source do not match.

The growth of the audience for video games and an increasing perception of their potential as an art form prompted gaming outlets to move towards cultural criticism of the games
Vox do not mention cultural criticism of the games. They do talk about cultural journalist, with the statement "if a cultural journalist writes about a game or movie or book, the implicit assumption is that this is worth you knowing about on some level". Statement and source do not match.

A large number of women whose primary gaming interests did not conform to those of the male-oriented gamer identity, and who began to question some of the assumptions and tropes that were historically used by game developers.
This is an implied historical perspective around gamer identity, but without source. Who said that, and where? The time article states that "Over the last few weeks, identity tensions have divided fans online in strange, ugly episodes rooted in how writers discuss games and who is allowed to participate." That is the historical perspective about the last weeks. Statement and source do not match.

In light of the growing female audience for games, and growing female representation in the gaming industry, outlets became increasingly interested in detailing issues of gender representation in video games
As a reader, I wonder whom those outlets are or who's analysis it is. Neither vox, latimes or times can tell me when this "increasingly interested" started, or if it stated.

In all, sourceless statement that should be removed or have sources to support them. Instead they were reintroduced, and thus posted here for further discussion. Unsourced statements are normally a non-issue for articles with this many editors, but I guess the tone here should have scared me away from looking at it. Belorn (talk) 04:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

As a comment, most of these are sourcable points from earlier sources in the GG commentary. They are not fully contentious (if you follow video games, these are obvious trends), but we do need better sourcing for them if they aren't in the sources attached, but I do believe all those sources exist. --MASEM (t) 04:54, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

If they "obviously" exist, someone should ad it. The article is long enough that we don't need to have additional sourceless statements that are broad and vague. I removed the content for this very purpose and got reverted. Wikipedia:Verifiability puts the burden to demonstrate verifiability with the editor who adds or restores material. As such, please demonstrate verifiability. Belorn (talk) 06:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Lede changes

NorthBySouthBaranof made an extensive change to the lead paragraph, arguably putting more emphasis on the issues of misogyny and sexism, while another editor new to the page Pengo has been doing the exact opposite. I've asked Pengo twice, and NorthBySouthBaranof mentioned in an edit summary to him once, to raise issues with changing the lead paragraph on this talk page, but he has effectively ignored these and reinstated his proposed changes on two separate occasions and claiming he has "addressed the concerns". Masem restored the previous form of the lead paragraph that does not give any weight to anything. We get it Masem. Neutrality. But this is neutrality. It's reflecting what's in reliable sources on the matter now which is the focus on the attacks on women for being women and seeing the "we want ethics" line to be a facade. This is getting tiresome. Mutliple editors who have never edited this article prior to everything blowing up on WP:AN in the past few days have recognized the issues with your calls for neutrality. People here and off of Wikipedia entirely have compared Gamergate supporters' desire for neutrality as not applicable to Wikipedia's or anyone else's concept of "neutrality". We cannot temper one side of the discussion (the side that does not agree with #GamerGate and categorizes it as a misogynist hate movement) to satisfy the other (the side that insists that it's actually about ethics in journalism) when the reliable sources do not reflect this. We cannot keep this up for another two months.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:07, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

My edit was based on Pengo's changes in terms of its theme of GamerGate as a movement. However, I rewrote it to emphasize what reliable sources have emphasized about the movement, and the repeatedly-expressed sense that GamerGate is a "culture war," which seems to be a sensible way of explaining it. We should be clear how the movement got started, which reliable sources have noted was the initial false allegations against Quinn. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:33, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The neutral version does not start by immediately blaming the proGG side for the issues. Remember, the gaming developer and journalists have admitted the situation that lead to GG is partially their fault for fostering this type of environment. Neutral would not put blame on anyone in the first sentence of the lead. --MASEM (t) 05:34, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

That's because the controversy only exists because of the "proGG" side making a big deal out of one woman's sex life. And Pengo you better respond to the thread here instead of repeatedly inserting the same thing into the lead paragraph to insist that the ethics issue is more important than everything else.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:39, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The fact that it started with Quinn's harassment is still fine for the lede, just not the lead sentence. The proGG side needs to be treated as human beings like we treat the others, and the change basically is instead thumbing our nose at them. --MASEM (t) 05:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

BTW, in relation to this, due to sanctions now on this article, existing editors should try to maintain 1RR (eg strict WP:BRD) issues; I know the sanction isn't for 1RR, but we, the experienced editors, keep this in mind, that will be better examples of others to avoiding having to enforce the sanction. (I debated taking Ryulong's two reverts of the lede back to ANI, but decided the RFC below was the better option). --MASEM (t) 06:02, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Pengo was requested multiple times to address his concerns on the talk page but has not. I am again being drawn into these idiotic little edit wars because I want to stick to WP:BRD, inform other parties of this courtesy, but I am ignored every time.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:06, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I was going to do a 2RR earlier on some edit you had done that I reverted once already, and paused and hovered my mouse over "undo", and chose not to, realizing the issue with your addition was part of the larger picture. Patience is required here. Unless it is a immediate BLP issue, we should try to avoid revert wars with the sanction on this, even if we stay under 3RR. --MASEM (t) 06:13, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I had been planning to self-revert but got edit conflicted when NBSB added onto the lede.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:17, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

User:NorthBySouthBaranof's new opening paragraph is an improvement, but the first sentence still needs a lot of work. "In video game culture, Gamergate (sometimes referred to as the hashtag #GamerGate) is an online movement which emerged around false allegations of unethical conduct levied against indie game developer Zoe Quinn in August 2014." What does that mean? What is it telling the reader? It's a movement, OK, that's an improvement over it being merely a vague "controversy". And it once had something to do with someone who did not actually do something in August. That's what it tells me. Seriously, that's not a description, it's perhaps an argument against something that it hasn't explained yet. Gamergate, at least in its current incarnation, as sick of you are of hearing, is widely said by its proponents, and as reported in The Verge, is ostensibly (meaning avowedly, declaredly, or professedly) about ethics in game journalism, particularly conflicts of interest between video game journalists and developers. Is it just a façade? Are the misogynistic aspects more important? When were the false allegations against Zoe Quinn made and how did they spark the movement? You have the rest of the opening paragraph and the rest of the article to discuss that. It's not about pushing a POV, it's about making the article readable to anyone trying to actually read it. If you put the answer before the question it just doesn't make sense. The faith healing article waits a whole three paragraphs before saying "Faith healing is an example of pseudoscientific magical thinking". You can wait until the second sentence to describe the misogyny and harassment by those connected with Gamergater. User:NorthBySouthBaranof's rewritten opening paragraph is still a vast improvement over what was there before, and manages to cover the culture war and the lack of leadership or organization in the movement which I believe were all absent from the opening paragraph before too. But it still needs work. I don't believe discussing it here is the best way. It's a wiki. You edit it. You make incremental improvements until it's better. That is how it works best.

User:Ryulong, please stop assuming bad faith and reverting edits without giving a reason, or under false pretences. You ignored the fact I addressed your stated concerns in my second edit and reverted it again anyway, and then did not revert NorthBySouthBaranof who did exactly the same thing you complained about—changing the article to be about a movement instead of a controversy, and nor have you raised that issue on this talk page. Nor did I in any way attempt to reduce any mention of the "issues of misogyny and sexism", as you have accused me of here. Nowhere did I insist it was an ethics issue, and again, you are assuming bad faith to say that. I am merely trying to make the article make sense, by stating what the people in the movement have said their movement is ostensibly (meaning seemingly, apparently) about.

User:Ryulong, Stating what a movement is about, according to the people who are in that movement, as stated in a reliable source, is not POV pushing.

User:Ryulong, You have showed no attempt to show that you had read or understood anything I wrote in reply to you on my talk page, as you appear to be so fast in your attempts to assume a POV that you have repeatedly misrepresented anything I have said or done and reverted every edit I have made. Not everything has to pass through the talk page. Edit to improve what you don't like instead of relying on reverting and arguments on talk pages, please. Please stop failing to assume good faith. That's how Wikipedia works best. —Pengo 09:21, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Gamergate for non-gamers

If you can get the article in the vicinity of this one, it will be a good article. If you can't, it will be a poor article. Willhesucceed (talk) 05:23, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy)

Is it possible that in an article about a two-sided issue where one side has received the majority of the positive coverage to be too biased in favor of that larger coverage?

Statement

Gamergate itself is highly controversial, and one of the issues with covering it is that one side (pro- Gamergate, or proGG) is from numerous anonymous users without any clear leadership, has had some members engage in harassment attacks against women (which the media frowns on), and has argued the media itself is biased. The limited sourcing that supports proGG typically are at the weak end, and/or fail our normal reliable sources policies. As such, the near unanimity of reliable sources paint the story in favor of the anti Gamergate/antiGG side and do not give a lot of equal coverage to the proGG side. This is not in doubt, and we are very clear that this article can never be 50/50 unbiased between the two sides. It is also very clear that the article is going to have to talk about the media's highly critical response to the harassment (eg. calling proGG as sexism and misogynistic) as this is part of the actual narrative as opposed to analysis (as proGG's responded to these charges with various actions). So we are, for some parts, going to have statements that we attribute to the mainstream media that are critical of that side.

This of course has brought in a number of SPAs and IP editors, influenced by offsite posts, to try to point out the bias in this article and to try to make it more proGG friendly. We have extensively pointed out we cannot flip the narrative that far around because the mainstream media has not treated the story like that. The proGG has had some favorable or detailed coverage, as to avoid it being a FRINGE viewpoint, but again, having 50/50 in this article is completely impossible by our sourcing and core content policies.

That said, I have argued that while we cannot give proGG any more coverage, we are instead giving the antiGG side far too much coverage, to the point of being preachy on how "right" the antiGG side is, and how bad the proGG side is. This is evidenced by certain phrasing, excessive use of the negative words "harassment" and "misogyny" (and forms thereof), and overuse of near-full quotes from antiGG sources when they are not needed for explaining the key parts of the narrative. Technically this all fits within our sourcing and content policies, but there's something wrong when it can be argued "well, there's no proGG sources, but there's plenty of antiGG sources, so lets keep adding those". This has cleared been a fact resonated in the main proGG offsite forums that are extremely disappointed with this article in how it paints them. (Please note: one has to take care in considering these offsite opinions as they range all over the spectrum, but there are people that are very coherent that have expressed very valid concerns on how bad the bias seems on this article). I have tried to point out that we should be clinically/detached neutral, which means we should not be repeating the praising that the antiGG side and berating the proGG side. The counterargument that has been used here by those that this there is no bias is that UNDUE/WEIGHT supports this approach, since the near-majority of sources are in that direction.

The question I pose here is two fold: 1) Even considering WP:WEIGHT/WP:UNDUE, when one side of a debate is overwhelming positively covered by sources and the other side is not, is it possible to push the widely-covered side too much to create bias in the opposite direction? 2) Does this article on GamerGate demonstrate this type of bias? Note that previous DR attempts have been made but rejected, and while the next step might be ArbCom, this feels more a content dispute and we have not tried a more global RFC. This will be posted to CENT and VPP, and will be posted to WT:VG, but any other projects that are related should be notified too.

(A note to any SPA/IP that might find their way here, please be aware this is not a vote but a discussion towards consensus, and input from relatively new users will typically be ignored if they don't offer policy-based reasons) --MASEM (t) 05:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Q1: Can an article become too biased in the favor of the side with the near-majority of sources?

(Leave and sign replies, perhaps "Yes", "No", or other clarification.)

• Yes. No matter how overwhelming the preponderance of a viewpoint expressed in reliable sources, Wikipedia can become biased in favor of it - because Wikipedia doesn't take viewpoints, only summarizes them. Some games have received near-unanimous critical acclaim, and whether I agree with this (e.g. BioShock Infinite, Final Fantasy VII) or not (e.g. EarthBound, Majora's Mask), Wikipedia is not allowed to state "The game was good". In my eyes, the only situation in which it's appropriate simply to phrase the majority of sources' statements as objective truths is one that wouldn't normally generate controversy by doing so: when they're factual and uncontroversial in nature. The very existence of these sources damns this possibility, because they illustrate that not only does an opposition to their views (i.e. pro-Gamergate) exist; it's worth writing about. TL;DR: Yes, if the content in question is opinions, because Wikipedia doesn't espouse opinions. Tezero (talk) 05:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Not sure the term "bias" is useful here, because bias relative to what? If anything, this bias argument implies an institutionalized unfairness, that WP is leaving something out, or that WP is unfair for only using "reliable sources" since the perspectives needed are not reiterated in such sources. Regardless of what we lose as a culture for omitting minority perspectives for want of sourcing, WP is successful by its own standards if it successfully emulates the character of the breadth of sources on a topic. What we're really discussing is weight, and if you use that term, this question becomes tautological: an article cannot be unduly weighted if it is giving the perspectives on a topic due weight (proportional to their coverage). *** From everything I've read on GG, I think the idea of two equal "sides" is mistaken—on WP, there is the corpus of every reliable article written on a topic, and from that set we can choose a subset to highlight in an article. If WP deliberately suppressed representation for a commonly held idea within that subset, sure, that would count as slant. If the coverage does not take pains to present this other "side", by our own weight and notability definitions, those unvetted perspectives are not some counterweighted equal, but a minority report with respect to the overall topic. Given the body of work published on GG, the sources used in the article should reflect the overall magnitude of coverage given to each claim/idea and not artificially enhanced in the name of truth. The idea of presenting any "controversy" article as equally weighted sides makes no sense—if sources cover some perspectives more than others, the article should reflect that proportionality such that its "bias" is identical to the corpus of source material (though "bias" is the wrong term). The premise of this question is flawed czar ♔ 06:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

• Yes - Wikipedia should only summarize existing sources, but even if the preponderance of existing source swing towards a specific majority viewpoint, there's a lot of editorial discretion that goes into how the actual article is worded. You can take 5 glowing video game reviews and use them to write a section that talks about how reviewers said a lot of positive things about a game, or use them to talk about how the game is the best thing since sliced bread- it's all in how you write it. Also, please note that Tezero's opinion is completely invalid, since he thinks EarthBound isn't as good as everyone else says it is. --PresN 06:50, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Yes it obviously can as NPOV concerns questions of weight and tone that are not negated by having the majority of sources backing your position. Generally, we would want the best and most neutral sources to be given high priority. Those sources that avoid overly opinionated language or make contentious claims that are not clearly provable should be given a low priority.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 07:27, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Yes An opinion being so widely shared doesn't make it a fact. Halfhat (talk) 10:11, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• I'm really lost on how you can asnwer this question with yes or no. Are we being asked if artcles are permitted to become biased if the sources are one-sided, or are we being asked if articles can be too biased if the sources only follow one side? I'm inclined to say yes to the former and and no to the latter, but the wording is a bit too ambiguous for a clear response. Looking above, Halfhat and TDA seems to be responding to the second interpretation of the question, while Tezero and PresN seem to be responding to the first interpretation. What was the intent? - Bilby (talk) 10:25, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• This is a ridiculous question, and I cannot even understand why this is being entertained as a serious discussion. If you want to discuss wikipedia policy take it somewhere relevant to wikipedia policy, as it stands the article will reflect the weight of sources. Anything else is irrelevant. As per Bilby. Koncorde (talk) 10:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Yes Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. If DUE policy conflicts with NOTADVOCATE, then the article should be rewritten in a more neutral and dispassionate form. Belorn (talk) 12:05, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• This question is Pointless and off topic. There's no use in hypotheticals when there's a concrete issue to discuss, and asking a softball like this is inappropriate. -- TaraInDC (talk) 13:20, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• I agree this is not a proper RFC question, it's basically "should WP:UNDUE exist?" only with loaded phrasing. Artw (talk) 13:25, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Q2: Is the current Gamergate article too biased in this manner?

(Leave and sign replies, perhaps "Yes", "No", or other clarification.)

1. No — As per the due weight policy, we must give due weight to the preponderant viewpoint in reliable sources. This means that if we are going to even *slightly* mention the various claims made by GamerGate, we must make clear that they are rejected by the weight of reliable sources and those rejections will necessarily be given more weight than the claims themselves. This is particularly important given that a large number of GamerGate's claims make negative statements or inferences about living people that have been discredited or flatly disproven. We have to write the article based upon the reliable sources we have, not the article that GamerGate supporters want to have. The fact of the matter is that effectively all of GamerGate's notoriety or "notability" comes from the harassment campaigns that some of its supporters have carried on. We wouldn't even have an article about GamerGate if it wasn't for the fact that media outlets ranging from MSNBC to The New York Times, The Telegraph to The Pacific Standard have weighed in on the misogynistic harassment which is, at this point, inextricably tied to GamerGate no matter how well-meaning some of its supporters are. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

• Genuinely perplexed how WP editors can claim to know the true scope (and therefore true appropriate weight) of GG when the RS themselves have no idea. This article has no hope for stability until the retrospective articles are written. Best plan for now is to maintain core WP policies (BLP, V, neutrality, etc.) and to remove bloat by relying nearly exclusively on mainstream media accounts. Leave the sifting and winnowing for professionals. Our job is to present the reliable sources proportionally, not to find the truth. No.  czar ♔ 07:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Yes as you have, for one example, the woefully undue focus on the Felicia Day incident. This is not simply a question of due weight, though, but also phrasing and structure. It was never very good in this department, but it has only worsened in recent days with a variety of changes such as the removal of the "legitimacy of concerns" section. Many more examples exist, but these are just a couple.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 07:27, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Yes The amount of quotes on top of adding bias is just flat out poor writing. It's okay to paraphase and leave out unimportant opinions. Halfhat (talk) 10:07, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Yes Reading the lede makes me sick, "the movement's unwillingness or inability to control the attacks carried out in its name is generally seen as preventing constructive engagement" The whole page is spouting opinions from anti-GG Retartist (talk) 10:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Gibberish article has been gibberish since it was first created. This has nothing to do with bias, and everything to do with the fact it's an unencyclopedic mess of opinions and self importance now being flooded with more crap. It should always have been an article related to video game culture or journalism, instead it's 90% opinions of harassment. Not bias, just terrible. Koncorde (talk) 10:41, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• Yes For an article with over 2000 edits with several hundred per day, there is still opinionated sourceless statements made in the wiki-voice. At times like this, editors should be conservative with the use of sources and make sure each statement is fully supported and written in a disinterested and dispassionate form. Belorn (talk) 11:59, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• No If anything the article gives too much weight to WP:FRINGE opinions as it stands. Artw (talk) 13:26, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• No. I note that you haven't actually specified in the question a particular 'direction' for the bias, and in fact I'd argue that we are giving too much weight to gamergate's claims that it's about ethics when the sources are at best mentioning that fact in passing and are increasingly taking time to actually debunk that claim, but it's clear you're seeking consensus for your vague claims that the article has anti-gamergate bias so I'll ignore that for the moment. Your argument is, again, uselessly vague. So far as I can tell you have still yet to suggest any changes at all that will rectify this 'bias' you claim exists, even in this RFC: it seems you'd rather just keep using your claim of 'bias' to drag every discussion off course with vague and unactionable arguments. The heavy use of quotes in the article, as has been pointed out again and again, is the result of this article's many POV pushers nitpicking over every blessed word that they think might possibly paint gamergate negatively until we're forced to attribute what should be uncontroversial information to individual sources rather than stating it in Wikipedia's voice. It's a symptom of bias, but it's bias in favor of gamergate. -- TaraInDC (talk) 13:39, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• No. Only answering this question as it's the only relevant one. I haven't contributed much to this article but have been following its development. I think it's now in a pretty good state that gives the different opinions about as much weight as is merited by the sources. I don't think it's biased by giving greater representation to the view which is overwhelmingly taken by the reliable sources. If anything, it's arguable (as TarainDC just argued above) that it gives too much representation to the fringe view, although I personally think it's just about alright. There are several other articles on similar controversies to this one, where one 'side' is the mainstream media view, and the other 'side' is a group of largely non-notable Internet commenters and amateurs. We can and should try to give the latter view a fair share of representation, but it's inevitable that our articles will always present a 'bias' in favour of the view taken by the reliable sources. Robofish (talk) 14:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• No. Seems by and large like an adequate reflection of what's in the types of sources Wikipedia articles are supposed to be based on. Andreas JN466 14:41, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Additional discussion

If it's the "near-majority of reliable sources" then it's not really a bias is it?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Our articles on specific religions and faith are going to use a near-majority of sources that favor of that religion, but these articles do not stoop to preaching that religion but talking about it in a clinical, hands off manner. That's the same issue here. --MASEM (t) 05:46, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

There are enough reliable sources on religions that are separate from the religion that allow us to present it clinically. There is near universal coverage of Gamergate that says the misogynistic attacks and death threats belie any minimal attempts they have made to present themselves as a consumer movement wanting to root out corruption in games journalism, as they've accomplished nothing concrete and intentionally focused their attention on indie games and female journalists and their advertisers.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Which we cannot present as fact (that is, that proGG is misogynistic), just as we cannot say, in the case of Christianity, that the Earth was created in 7 days. We can say that the faith presents the Genesis theory that the Earth was created in 7 days, and we can say the media believes the proGG is misogynistic, but we have to recongize the line between fact and opinion, and we are relying on far too much opinion here. --MASEM (t) 05:57, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps the utilitarian approach is needed here. I can't see how there'd be more benefit to purporting Gamergate being misogynistic as an objective fact than there would be cost. SJWs reading the page would simply say "yes, that's true" and move on, while Gamergaters would, if not resorting to vandalism or good-faith disruption, be extremely (and rightfully) miffed. Tezero (talk) 06:01, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you actually saying we should solely refer to everything as opinions and not objective facts to avoid pro-Gamergate vandalism and edit warring?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:07, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's one good reason. Tezero (talk) 06:11, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

That is a terrible idea.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Why? Tezero (talk) 06:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Because there is no reason to not address something ust because it might result in vandalism or disruption. Omitting established information or treating it in another voice because a minority viewpoint on the matters disagree with it makes no sense. Doing so is effectively self-censorship, which goes against one of the pillars of Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

So you have evidence that everyone that harassed those people were misogynistic? The answer is clearly no. But we do know that sources felt the attacks were misogynistic, so we can state that in their voice, but not in WP's voice. That's a big different here. --MASEM (t) 07:19, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I've said here. Omitting information or treating a preponderance of similar information as an opinion of multiple sources is not how things work on all other articles on Wikipedia. It is only because of the highly vocal nature of the Gamergate supporters that this article is being treated as different.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Whether or not the attacks were carried out with a misogynistic intent is something that cannot be determined by observation alone, so while a majority of sources have claimed the attacks were misogynistic does not make it a fact, simply the popular opinion. --MASEM (t) 13:59, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I find it humorous when editors care about an anonymous movement being labelled as "misogynistic" yet have no problem calling others "SJWs". "Why do those cream-faced loons keep calling me a flap-eared knave?" Do you see why some editors may question your own good faith when you use terms like that? Woodroar (talk) 07:33, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

When you have dozens of publications, and not solely video game websites, saying that the actions taken under the umbrella of GamerGate to Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu, Jenn Frank, Leigh Alexander, and Felicia Day are misogynistic, then we can say that such acts are misogynistic. When multiple sources say that the initial allegations against Quinn were false (in all the myriad ways they explain that there was no initial breach of ethics), we can say that they were false allegations. Nearly everything else in the article is a quote and labeled as an opinion because the supporters of Gamergate do not want it in Wikipedia's voice.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:04, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

"Misogynistic" is one of the most charged adjectives of the twenty-first century, though. We can't say (though I've definitely seen well-established users here who disagree with this policy) that child pornography is wrong, even though I can guarantee without checking that the extreme majority of reliable sources would not only say it is, but let this bias cripple the entirety of their writings. In other words, it doesn't matter how many sources say Gamergate is misogynistic; that's not a sterile, objective enough fact for us to put in our own voice. Tezero (talk) 06:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

We are reporting that multiple news agencies, including the New York Times, the BBC, CNN, etc., have called the acts misogynistic. The article as far as I am aware is not equating this with morally reprehensible, as one would describe child abuse. However we are equating death threats with moral reprehensibility. Just because those death threats constitute misogyny does not mean we are presenting misogyny as morally reprehensible. That's all I can truly say to your analogy here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Why should we paint death threats as morally reprehensible? Tezero (talk) 06:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

In what context is a death threat sent to someone having an innocuous opinion on the Internet about video games ever not morally reprehensible?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Because that's not a fact. You can not objectively state anything is morally reprehensible, only that others say it is. That's his point. And that's part of being neutral. Halfhat (talk) 10:47, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Because there's not a single reliable source that doesn't treat them as morally reprehensible, and the idea that a death threat isn't morally reprehensible is so fringe as to be effectively nonexistent. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Ours is not to state whether something is morally reprehensible, only to state citeable facts in the context of the sources. In that same breath we shouldn't assume unless outright emphasized that misogyny is the reason behind such threats, as that's synthesizing information from what was given us.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 06:57, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

When multiple reliable sources say that the threats are misogynistic then we can report on that determination. We should not temper how Wikipedia reports on these things simply because of the pro-Gamergate cries of bias.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Then shouldn't we make that distinction that they're making the determination clear, and not treat it outright as fact?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 07:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

On every other topic, when multiple sources make the same distinction, generally that indicates it as a fact.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:17, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is the article doesn't read neutral in many sections, primarily in tone and to an extent information. It states Felicia Day was harassed, yet there appears to be no ongoing evidence of that outside of someone posting her personal information. Also her commentary was sincere, calling it 'scathing' makes me really wonder what we should call some of the articles Kotaku has posted as of late. The New York Times article lists the threats against Sarkessian as being from GamerGate, yet no mention of the movement was even made in those threats. Then again I don't recall them being mentioned in the threats made against Wu either, and that can be cited from the reports on the tweets themselves.

Unfortunately I'm going to abstain from going on this further; I have personal involvement with this and feel strongly about it, so I'd rather not let my opinion cloud my judgement. But I do feel it's important that we separate opinion from media outlets from fact.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 06:29, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

No true Scotsman.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

That makes no sense. It's not no true sctotsman to say it's not fact because it's opinion. You don't seem to know what that phrase means. Halfhat (talk) 10:16, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll be honest I'm not entirely sure where you're going with that there.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 06:57, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

You are repeating the logical fallacy that Gamergate makes to distance itself from the harassment that happens in its midst.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

That's not a logical fallacy. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but you clearly have no understanding of logic, you're just going "You committed a fallacy", with no real understanding. That would only apply if they went "We never harass people because we define ourselves so that if you harass you aren't one of us" it's a sort of combination of questionable definition and tautology. Halfhat (talk) 10:28, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

...I'm pointing out problems I have with the article in a reasonable manner. How is that a 'logical fallacy' when we use statements to imply a steady stream of harassment against Ms. Day, when there's no evidence of such?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 07:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

You are raising the issues that the attacks and harassment did not explicitly state that Gamergate was the reason or their actions. Also, Day's commentary is not being described as "scathing". Kluwe's is. The one where he refers to Gamergaters as "basement-dwelling, cheetos-huffing, poopsock-sniffing douchepistols". And the posting of her address is being treated as harassment by the various sources that are reporting on it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:17, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm certainly not pro-gamergate; I think what little attention most of its supporters spend on actual ethical issues is wiped out by how much more time they spend arguing with and gossiping about specific online personalities that disagree with them, even aside from the undercurrent of harassment that certain supporters continue to use without being really excised from the movement, or from the very clear way the movement is shaped by people using it to complain about feminism and liberalism in video game culture. That said, like I say in the section above, you can go a long way in any direction with how you word an article, even with the same sources. I think this article gets preachy. I think that's because it's so exhausting to block gamergate SPAs and well-intentioned ignorant new editors from wrecking the article that the only voices that manage to really get into the article are those that are vociferously against gamergate. To be a bit specific, I'm really glad that Ryulong and NorthbySouthwhatever are here to keep this article from floundering into nonsense and crud, but it has resulted in an article that pulls away from objectivity into a heavily negative piece that still relies on the same sources that a really clear, clean article would.

The thing is, I don't think it's solvable. At least not for months and months yet. As long as this is an ongoing event, and as long as there are so many GG supporters who are insistent on creating an article that reflects their views rather than reflects an objective, RS-based take on the issue, then the status quo is going to remain, even if that status quo isn't as good as it could/should be. --PresN 06:50, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

This. The article should be pretty much two paragraphs - one describing it, second summarising it, and then lots of blank space until something actually happens where we can define "Gamergate" outside of the harassment as currently that is pretty much all it is. Koncorde (talk) 10:46, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Widely accepted opinion is still not fact we need to not present it as such. Halfhat (talk) 10:09, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Widely accepted reliable sources are as close to "Fact" as you get for wikipedia. This is why there are other "wiki" out there that have lower thresholds for inclusion. Koncorde (talk) 10:46, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

With some thought you can normally differentiate between opinion and fact. For example if there's no way they could possibly know that "GG is a front for misogyny" it can't be fact so it's opinion. Halfhat (talk) 10:49, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

"With some thought" suggests Original Research or Synthesis. All sources are opinions at the moment, either pro, anti, or comment. You either have them (and the current article in its heinous form) or you don't have them and accept that the article should be very much condensed. One is an aggregate of news, the other is an encyclopedic article. Koncorde (talk) 10:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

No all it requires is some comprehension of what the sources are saying. By your logic everything is synthesis other than just saying what others say. It's not coming up with anything new only looking to see if what is stated is opinion or fact. Halfhat (talk) 14:21, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Lets sort out the introduction once and for all

I'd say the introduction suffers from the most bias problems and needs to be addressed. To prevent edit warring I say we start this section to decide how to go about making it as objective as possible, with as little loaded language as possible Halfhat (talk) 10:58, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Introduction? How about the entire article. This article has been gone about in entirely the wrong way. Anybody writing an article like this needs to take a massive step back when doing so. By all means write about a particular point of view, but don't carry on about it. For example:

"However, Gamergate has become most notable for a series of misogynistic and violent threats and harassment targeting Quinn and other prominent women in gaming, which have drawn widespread condemnation of the movement"

Now, who says this is the case? From the looks of it the author. Certainly depending on who you ask you will get mixed responses on this, some would agree with that, others including myself would disagree. Take a step back, by all means state there are accusations of misogyny, but importantly say who is making them. The author making an opinionated claim like that would not be tolerated on any other article and I see no reason at all to make an exception. —Frosty ☃ 11:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, why are we saying that the allegations against Quinn were "proven" false, when the only sources say that Stephen Totilo, Grayson's boss, said he didn't find any wrongdoing? I'm not saying we need to question his account, but acting as if his word is objective fact isn't neutral. There's also no mention of Grayson being listed in Depression Quest credits or his admission to having been a tester for the game. Agent Chieftain (talk) 11:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

We've been over this a lot, but we're saying that they were proven false because all of the sources (including Breitbart) have been describing them that way. Grayson didn't write about Quinn when in a relationship with her, so there is no doubt about the issue.

No reliable source has covered Depression Quest's credits, and I'm going to make the guess that none will - it simply isn't an issue. Accordingly, we can't cover it. - Bilby (talk) 11:39, 26 October 2014 (UTC)