Talk:Killing of Michael Brown: Difference between revisions

Should the fracture leaker be referred to as an "unnamed source"?

FOX, ABC, CNN, NYT, all use an "unnamed source" for their information, we can't single out just two media outlets and say they used anonymous sources. They all used anonymous sources, so what's the point of specifically identifying those networks as using anonymous sources when the other media outlets did as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:23, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

This case differs from the others in that the source provided information that was proven to be false. It was a case of a government agency (or an individual within that agency, which has to be taken as the same thing) deliberately giving false information to the public for the purpose of manipulating public opinion. It's significant that it was a leak, and we should be clear on that point. In the reader comments for a recent NYT article, there are people STILL spreading the "information" that Wilson suffered broken facial bones, which is exactly what the leak was intended to accomplish. The leaker was astute enough to know that many people would see the first report and miss the debunking the following day, and that would be enough to poison the public debate. It's an unusual case that warrants unusual treatment.

Please don't post a statement of explanation (essentially nothing more than an expanded editsum for your revert), and then pretend that you have satisfied BRD. Statement != discussion. I have reverted your revert, and I'm sorry people insist on bringing things to this point. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 19:57, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

If I understand the sourcing correctly, all four media outlets are basing their reporting on anonymous sources. So FOX and ABC reported through anonymous sourcing, then CNN reported through an anonymous source, then the NYT reported through an anonymous source. So all four are reporting through anonymous sourcing. Why is one anonymous source given more credibility than another one. Did FOX or ABC retract their original reports and specifically state that their anonymous source got it wrong? If not, then all four media outlets are on the same footing as far as sourcing goes - it is anonymous. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:41, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Now let's get more opinions, and please leave the article as per existing de facto consensus until we reach a consensus for change here. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 20:47, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I restored all media outlets used anonymous sourcing, that's the way it was before I removed the unnecessary attributions. It's not necessary to just single out two and describe their sources as anonymous, when all four used anonymous sources. It has not been proven that CNN's anonymous source is more credible or reliable than anyone else's.

And it would be nice to see a source for this statement: " It was a case of a government agency (or an individual within that agency, which has to be taken as the same thing) deliberately giving false information to the public for the purpose of manipulating public opinion." That would solve this debate if we had a source for that statement in that we could just include that piece of information. Seems relevant to me. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

As I understand it, said source would be needed if we wanted to include something like that in the article, but it's ok to do that kind of (unsourced) editorializing in article talk. As it is, we don't even say "leak". We state the facts neutrally and let the reader figure it out. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 21:58, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The facts were stated neutrally with my first revision of the content - FOX and ABC reported a fracture/serious injury to face, CNN reported x-rays negative, NYT reported punches and scratches. That's neutral and factually correct. That's what they reported. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem with claiming that the person is lying is that we don't actually know if they were lying or just misinformed and playing a game of telephone (game); it is not uncommon for repeated information to change in the telling, and Wilson was definitely punched in the face. He may have just been repeating office scuttlebutt; someone said he was punched in the face, someone speculated that his eyesocket might have been broken, Mr. or Ms. I-like-to-leak-stuff-to-the-news repeated the idle speculation as fact. I mean, let's face it - some people online are claiming that Michael Brown was gunned down while he was running away, but I don't think any of the eyewitness testimony claims that his back was turned when he was killed (and goodness knows, the eyewitness testimony agrees on pretty much nothing), and Brown was definitely not shot in the back according to every autopsy report. If there was evidence that they were lying, that'd be one thing, but, as they say, never assume malice when you can assume stupidity. Titanium Dragon (talk) 10:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem with your reasoning is that any adult acting in good faith would be careful to get the facts right before making such a statement to the press. They didn't qualify it in any way, according to the reports; they stated it as fact. Ergo, they were not acting in good faith.

But let's pretend that a grownup working for a police department could be stupid enough to make such a mistake honestly. A Barney Fife, if you will, "close to the top brass". If Ferguson PD had been acting in good faith, they would have canned the person immediately, informed the public that had been done, with some way for the press to verify that, and issued a very public apology (e.g., press conference or at least an official press release). They did not do that; ergo, they were not acting in good faith. It would be absurd to suggest that perhaps Ferguson PD doesn't know who the leaker was. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 21:18, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Criticism of Police Response

I think that some of the bits of this article could use some reworking, in particular the "police" section (which really has been totally supersceded by Darren Wilson's account, and therefore is no longer relevant where it is) and the robbery incident report and video release. Both of these sections are not really written in an encyclopedic manner and involve a great deal of complaining about the timing and manner of release of material at the cost of making these sections a mess to read.

I think that it would make more sense to cut out the police section from the accounts section (which we should probably rename to "Eyewitness accounts", because at least one of the autopsies also contains an account of what happened, and all the accounts there are eyewitness accounts) and to cut out the criticism of the video release from the video release section and create a "criticism of police response" (or possibly "official" instead of "police") section which contains this information, thereby cleaning up the various sections of the articles and factualizing them, while allowing us to simultaneously try and condense the criticism and try and get at what they were criticized for in a more straightforward, coherent, easy-to-read manner. Some of the criticism is counterfactual (for instance, in the video release section, some sources complaining about the release of the video not having been demanded by anyone is then immediately countered by the fact that a newspaper demanded the release of all the material about Michael Brown during that time span, as well as the note about the law which isn't explained in the article at all and definitely needs some expansion), while some of it is not, and we really should try and make it into less of a jumbled mess.

The major criticisms of the police seem to be:

1) Secrecy.

2) Piecemeal release of information.

3) Censorship of information related to the ongoing investigation (if there is any relevant legal principle at work here, that should be noted).

4) Criticism of the release of the video.

5) Criticism of the timing of the release of the video.

6) Criticism of the release of other material which is damning to Brown.

Is there anything else there that I'm missing? I think the Ferguson unrest article covers the issues of the police response to the protests and rioting which ensued, so that probably doesn't belong here. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. Nothing has been superseded by the leaked testimony. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:46, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Adding a direct link to the autopsy report ?

The article summarizing the report is already mentioned. Should we add a direct link to the report itself ?--Japarthur (talk) 03:58, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I had added one previously, a link to the material posted by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. If there is a better, more permanent location for the material in question, change that reference to link to it. The reference is named StLouisNarrativeReport right now, because that's what I had seen. If you have a full copy of all the pages of the autopsy, link to it and feel free to change the reference and the reference name (it is referenced in the county autopsy section). Titanium Dragon (talk) 11:59, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Criticism by a forensic expert of how her comments were reported

Forensic expert urges caution on Michael Brown autopsy analysis Michael-Ridgway (talk) 05:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion: This needs to go in the lede. Also, this and the many other complaints and criticisms about the impropriety of the selective Wilson-friendly leaks deserve a full section.

Justice Department Condemns Leaks In Michael Brown Case As Attempt To 'Influence Public' Michael-Ridgway (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Certainly coverage of this is important. There is also the latimes link I provided above. I do not think its appropriate for the lede at this time as we already mention controversy over the official actions in the lede. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

There is considerable controversy over people trying to sway public opinion in this case, both for and against Officer Wilson. Maybe we should just make a "controversy" section instead of a "criticism of official response" section, seeing as the controversy is not only over the official response but also over media coverage of the incident? Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

In general, we should put criticism near the action it is criticizng, and also near defense or praise of that action, per Wikipedia:Criticism#Avoid_sections_and_articles_focusing_on_criticisms_or_controversies - however, this may be a situation where the controversy is such a large part of the story that it would swamp the actual details if done in the normal fashion. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Seens like the bulk of the criticism/controversy content in the article now is in relation to the Ferguson PD and/or Chief Jackson and his/their handling of the case and other issues. DOJ is investigating them. We should sort through it and condense what we have into a section appropos titled. Include the PD/Jackson's response to criticism/controversy there. Just an idea to consider, a little organization and trimming wouldn't hurt. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That was my thought as well; the controversy is a big part of the story, and it kind of junks up some parts of the article, as well as being harder to read about and understand because it isn't all in one place. Given that there is an actual investigation into it, it seems like it would be worthy of its own section. I do agree that generally it is best to put criticism inline, but I think in this case there is too much and it would make the article read much less coherently; the sections with the criticism in them are much harder to read than the more straightforward sections. Titanium Dragon (talk) 12:05, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that it is a good idea to separate the controversy as that would break the narrative. We need to keep material within its proper context for NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:45, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Getting back to the stated topic of this section, there is this: I read it as a pretty hard slam on the St. Louis Post Dispatch reporter who got repeated hundreds of times in other second-hand journalistic reporting, including Wikipedia.

Dr. Judy Melinek wrote on her own blog in an article she titled Forensic Sound Bites & Half-Truths:

 A reporter from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch called me earlier this week, saying she had Michael Brown's official autopsy report 
 as prepared by the St. Louis County Medical Examiner, and asking me if I would examine and analyze it from the perspective of 
 a forensic pathologist with no official involvement in the Ferguson, Missouri shooting death. 
 I read the report, and spent half an hour on the phone with the reporter explaining Michael Brown's autopsy report line-by-line, 
 and I told her not to quote me - but that I would send her quotes she could use in an e mail. 
 The next morning, I found snippets of phrases from our conversation taken out of context in her article in the Post-Dispatch. 
 These inaccurate and misleading quotes were picked up and disseminated by other journals, blogs, and websites. 
 This is the text of my actual email exchange with Post-Dispatch health and medical news reporter Blythe Bernhard:

I believe that Ms. Berhnard's mishandling of this interview and her misquotes are notable and that they deserve prominent mention in our article. As virtually every one of my edits to the article in the last month has been summarily reverted, (along with not a few of my comments on the talk page) I trust you will appreciate that I have no confidence that I, acting alone, can make this happen. I appeal to those of you who are in the in crowd who believe that fair reporting is a virtue that should be upheld in Wikipedia to carry a flag that I cannot (and have never been able to) carry. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

A few comments. In the autopsy section, something may be appropriate, but unless the dispatch has issued a correction (or other RS have picked up on this blog post), we are going to be somewhat limited in what we can do. This falls under WP:SPSBLP and WP:SELFPUB. The important bits would be "Never [Bold in original!] use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer." and "[self published sources can be used if] it does not involve claims about third parties". As this stuff is about multiple 3rd parties (wilson, the reporter, the other examiners, the police, brown (via WP:BDP)) we can't do much with it. Also I suppose a lot depends on what "prominently" means. If we can find better sourcing I think a sentence or two in the autopsy section could be appropriate - but its also important to note that while she adds extra context and other possibilities to her analysis - the core of what was printed in the dispatch remains true. Gaijin42 (talk) 00:02, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Although this talking points memo source is probably not directly usable, the MSNBC story it refers to may be. Gaijin42 (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Or this Wapo story http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/10/24/st-louis-post-dispatch-editor-on-ferguson-leaks-theyre-public-accountability-journalism/ Gaijin42 (talk) 00:06, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

None of what was quoted was wrong, as was noted in the Washington Post; she said all that stuff and believed all that stuff. She was complaining because of the wording, fundamentally, not because of the content - she felt that they were presenting her opinions with too few equivocations, not that they weren't accurate. The hand wound, for example, does indeed support the idea that Brown's hand was shot when he was reaching with the gun. The lack of stippling but presence of gunshot residue is very important, because it helps establish range. Stippling is caused by gunshot residue flying through the air and striking the target alongside the bullet; distant shots do not exhibit stippling because the gunshot residue does not travel so far. The fact that there was gunshot residue in the wound but no stippling indicates the opposite - that the injury was inflicted at such close range that the gunshot residue had no opportunity to spread out in the air before it struck Brown, and therefore struck the same region where the bullet impacted. This indicates a range of less than one inch, because at greater distances, the residue has more opportunity to spread out through the air. The location of the wound on the inside of the palm of his hand further supports the idea that Brown was reaching for the gun when he got shot, because given the angle of the wound, it indicates that a good portion of his hand extended past the tip of the barrel of the gun - the injury, rather than being a straight-on impact, cuts across the base of his thumb and the very bottom of the palm of his hand. If you have some long, thin object, hold your hand out so that the tip of said object is pointing across the palm of your hand as was the case with Brown, and you can see the possible angles that the wound could have been inflicted at - they're entirely consistent with the idea that Brown was grappling for the gun. Evidence consistent with eyewitness testimony supports said testimony. And that was basically what she was saying - that Wilson's testimony was supported by the physical evidence. That does not necessarily mean that it is the only possible explanation, though some other explanations were ruled out by the evidence. We may want to rephrase the section slightly, but the problem is that "supported" is the word that she actually used.

The problem is, more or less, she didn't like how they quoted her saying what she said - by the sounds of things, she was trying to put together quotable quotes which she felt would be superior to her conversational remarks, and was annoyed because they quoted her when she asked them to wait so she could put together quotes they could use. I'm not surprised it annoyed her; if you're trying to comment on something important in some sort of official or semi-official capacity, you generally want to have the time to properly compose your response before it gets quoted everywhere.

MSNBC freaked out over it because, fundamentally, this makes them look bad - they've been sensationalizing this stuff for months and putting together a narrative which even the physical evidence we had prior to this point in time did not support. I have zero sympathy for them. Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:20, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Nice opinion, but there is a simpler explanation. That there are other possible explanations that may not be consistent with other leaks. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:40, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I changed it from "supported" to "consistent with", as she has used both terms in different interviews, and people are less likely to misunderstand "consistent with" than "supported". And what inconsistencies do you see? Pretty much all the leaks I've seen from the grand jury have been noted as being consistent with each other in various RSs. Titanium Dragon (talk) 23:05, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

The irony and meta-ness of this story is awesome.

An anonymous source says holder is annoyed by anonymous leaks :)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/leaked-information-on-ferguson-probe-angers-attorney-general/ Gaijin42 (talk) 17:27, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, the irony. Ileanadu (talk) 18:10, 24 October 2014 (UTC)oi

I'm going to post this on FB. Ileanadu (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Independent Autopsy

The article states that:

Forensic pathologist Dr. Judy Melinek said that the autopsy supported the idea that Brown was reaching for the gun at the time he was shot.

Dr. Melnik later appeared on MSNBC and said:

"I'm not saying that Brown going for the gun is the only explanation. I'm saying the officer said he was going for the gun and the right thumb wound supports that," Melinek. "I have limited information. It could also be consistent with other scenarios. That's the important thing. That's why the witnesses need to speak to the grand jury and the grand jury needs to hear all the unbiased testimony and compare those statements to the physical evidence." http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/judy-melinek-ferguson-autopsy-report-msnbc

I did not read the original articles that supposedly quoted her out of context. Perhaps reword to add "but could also be consistent with other scenarios"?

There was also something one of the independent autopsy experts said about not being able to confirm something (GSR?) because tissue had been removed from Brown's body. Anybody catch that? Is it relevant? Ileanadu (talk) 18:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes we can add the "could be consistent" wording or some such, since the new source covers both possibilities (and therefore we don't have to worry about Synth). Could you be more specific about where you saw the other expert talking about removed tissue? That certainly would be important, as it explains discrepancies between the autopsies. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:04, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Baden has since given an interview where he explains why there may be discrepancies between the autopsies. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 21:37, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

@Michael-Ridgway: Source? Is there anything useful/interesting in there? Titanium Dragon (talk) 23:17, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

@Gaijin42: I took the liberty of modifying the section to note that it was consistent with rather than "supports", as noted above; she has used both terms, and given the confusion people have expressed on the talk page over the difference between the two, I felt that it was appropriate to amend it. She has apparently spoken to a number of press sources; the AP has still another quote from her on the incident, quoted in the Washington Post here:

• “You don’t just look at one piece of evidence. You have a witness statement, the officer, saying that Michael Brown is reaching for the gun and it goes off and hits (Brown’s) hand. The physical findings (in the autopsy) are consistent with the officer’s statement.”

Titanium Dragon (talk) 23:16, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a subtle difference, imo, "supports" being a little stronger. "Consistent with" merely says it could have happened as Wilson described, based on the autopsy, and it leaves a lot of wiggle room. Since she was sloppy and expressed it both ways, we can't know what her intent was, and I'm thinking we should express it both ways, too. The only argument against that would be that the distinction would be lost on most readers, but in that case the old language would do as well. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 23:34, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

I think this is an improvement, but to be NPOV we need to include a statement saying that it could be consistent with other scenarios as well - that is the core of the objection. Gaijin42 (talk) 00:29, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

That sounds a bit like SYNTH to me. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 00:40, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, agree. Let's thread with caution, please. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Whose caution are you agreeing with? ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 00:45, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how that would be synth, as Melnick said pretty much exactly that in her MSNBC interview [1] " Based on the physical evidence thus far presented, said Melinek, other scenarios are possible." From talking points (repeating MSNBC, find a real transrcipt) " I'm not saying that Brown going for the gun is the only explanation. I'm saying the officer said he was going for the gun and the right thumb wound supports that," Melinek. "I have limited information. It could also be consistent with other scenarios. That's the important thing. That's why the witnesses need to speak to the grand jury and the grand jury needs to hear all the unbiased testimony and compare those statements to the physical evidence" Gaijin42 (talk) 02:31, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Officer Darren Wilson

The sub-section currently named “Officer Darren Wilson” in the Testimony section is presented as if the material was directly from Wilson, when in factor it was from a selective leak by anonymous sources. We don’t have yet a testimony from Wilson, and presenting it as if this is his testimony is not NPOV. We need to add context and edit that section accordingly, including the controversy of the leaks and the reaction from the DOJ and others about the selective leak. I would also advice editors here to be extremely careful when using Wikipedia’s voice instead of attributing properly the material we add. It may be also a good idea to move that section under the Police section, and not in the witness section, until Wilson’s witness testimony is published by authorities. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:33, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That's easily fixed with attribution. According to this source "Police Officer Darren Wilson told investigators that in a struggle for his pistol inside a police SUV, Michael Brown pressed the barrel of Wilson’s gun against the officer’s hip, according to a source with knowledge of his statements."- MrX 18:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I have added some context about the leak, feel free to improve the attribution. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Cwobeel We pretty much have a consensus to not use repeated attribution inside each account. If you notice none of the other statements include repeated "according to" style wording. Its not neutral to do that just to one account.Gaijin42 (talk) 20:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd state that more strongly, striking "pretty much". There has been zero objection on this point. First, it's unnecessary since it's quite clear that it's one person's account. Second, it makes for some pretty difficult reading. It gets extremely tiresome after the first two or three, even if you use all possible ways to say "according to". ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 20:58, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I left the initial context for testimony and leaks in, but removed the repeated "According tos" later in the section. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I understand, but this particular leaked testimony is difficult to present in an NPOV manner. For example, we have this: Brown grabbed Wilson's pistol while punching him repeatedly in the face, and Wilson could feel Brown pushing the weapon back towards his body, and it was at one point pointed back at the hiss hip. - That statement is made in Wikipedia's voice rather than in Wilson's voice, and it is troubling. So, it may be a good idea to attribute it to Wilson such as Wilson said that Brown grabbed his pistol while punching him repeatedly in the face, and he could feel Brown pushing the weapon back towards his body, and that at one point the gun was pointed back at his hip. I'll let you give it a try and see if you can improve the attribution. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:02, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I note that you're a lot more concerned about (excessively) clear attribution in Wilson's account. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 21:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

its apples to apples. Similarly, in Dorians section, we say without attribution (except for the initial introduction attribution)

• Wilson grabbed brown around his neck
• Brown did not reach for the weapon
• shot while fleeing
• brown saying "I don't have a gun stop shooting"
• etc

Gaijin42 (talk) 21:08, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

<s?>I see, but it is not different here? Dorian is referring descriptions of actions by others, while Wilson is referring to his own. I am not trying to split hairs here, but I think it is very different. Just read Dorian's account again, and compare. It seems quite obvious to me. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I agree with both of you. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

What is puzzling, is who is behind the leaks. Neither the prosecutor's office, nor Wilson's defense team. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (I see you have conceeded, so just putting this here so I don't waste my time, and for others who come along) I think they are quite the same, but if they were to be different (and different in the way you describe) , it would be more important to attribute Dorian's statements, because he is in fact commenting about other's actions which raises additional BLP issues (following the underlying logic of WP:BLPSELFPUB)

Its subtle, but I think there are some strong hints that the leaks are from the DOJ Gaijin42 (talk) 21:21, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Chris King (Of www.stlamerican.com) said he got it from both feds and locals (but didn't run with it) https://twitter.com/chriskingstl/status/524993408763310080 and the times article attribution is "according to government officials briefed on the federal civil rights investigation into the matter" also several of the leaks are specifically about stuff revealed in the FBI investigations that would not be available to the defense yet (no discovery until charges/trial) and may well not be available to the locals Gaijin42 (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

How can it be from the DOJ, when the DOJ is reportedly upset about the leaks? Maybe someone in the DOJ with an agenda? Anyway, speculation will not clear this up. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:34, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

To answer your question (How can it be from the DOJ, when the DOJ is reportedly upset about the leaks?). Holder has to be "politically correct" and "claim" (that is, feign) that he is so upset. He is pandering to the Brown supporters (the Wilson haters). Then, when the grand jury (rightfully, in my opinion) does not indict, Holder can go through his theatrics of being "upset" in order to continue pandering to certain people. Perhaps this can be added to improve the article? Let me go find a source, first. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@Joseph A. Spadaro: I think you are crossing a line you should not with these type of comments. I suggest you redact your appalling comments. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:57, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, beyond them SAYING they are upset (which may be different than actually being upset) its not a monolithic org. But you brought it up, not me :) Gaijin42 (talk) 21:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me how it is okay for Joseph A. Spadaro to refer to Brown supporters as "Wilson haters" and why when he does, I see no evidence of concern on the part of any other editors. Isn't that forumizing and borderline trolling? Alice is once again confused by this curious apparent WP:DOUBLESTANDARD.

I'm sure if he keeps up the soapboxing, someone will say something. But he is suggesting on ways to improve the article, which is rather the purpose of the page. Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 21:59, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll give it a shot, with some background. I reverted Spadaro on NOTFORUM grounds, Gaijin42 suggested a different approach, and I self-reverted. The difference? I guess it's that Spadaro doesn't make a habit of it. And you do it less than you used to, so you might get results similar to Spadaro's today. Not that I suggest testing that hypothesis. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 21:59, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Amnesty International report

Due to conflicting reports, what happened between Brown and Wilson remains uncertain. According to one witness, Brown and his friend attempted to walk away when the officer fired his weapon, shooting the unarmed Brown, whose hands were in the air. According to police statements, a physical confrontation between the officer and Brown resulted in the officer shooting the unarmed Brown. Regardless, international standards provide that law enforcement officers should only use force as a last resort and that the amount of force must be proportionate to the threat encountered and designed to minimize damage and injury. Officers may only use firearms when strictly necessary to protect themselves or others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury. Even then, the intentional lethal use of firearms is justified only when "strictly unavoidable in order to protect life." Irrespective of whether there was some sort of physical confrontation between Michael Brown and the police officer, Michael Brown was unarmed and thus unlikely to have presented a serious threat to the life of the police officer. As such, this calls into question whether the use of lethal force was justified, and the circumstances of the killing must be urgently clarified. Also troubling is Missouri's broad statute on the use of deadly force. Amnesty International is very concerned that the statute may be unconstitutional and is clearly out of line with international standards on the intentional use of lethal force as it goes well beyond the doctrine that lethal force only be used to protect life.[2], [3]

- Cwobeel (talk) 21:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Reading the seven pages of their report is quite something. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:32, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think their summary of the case is important, I think we have that covered. Regarding being a serious threat or not, that's a matter for the jury to decide (grand jury for now) their opinion on that matter isn't super relevant or notable.

Their comment about general international standards and Missouri law may be a good addition though. The conflict with Fleeing Felon is not a new critique, but Amnesty may be a better voice than what we have now. Hunting for page 7. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:34, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you talking about the 7th page of the pdf (which says its page 4), the page marked 7, or the 7th page of the website version? Gaijin42 (talk) 21:38, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Bah, nevermind, I thought you were pointing to a specific page, you were just referring to its entire length. I accidentally the whole thing! Gaijin42 (talk) 21:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The whole thing, LOL. Good read, anyway, no? - Cwobeel (talk) 21:41, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Tow comments on mainstream sources: Time: [4], WaPo: [5] - Cwobeel (talk) 21:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The fist time ever that Amnesty International documented human rights abuses inside the U.S. Wow. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:45, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I think they are on the strongest footing (and most relevant to their mission/expertise) when discussing the unrest and protest/free speech/civil rights issues. Thats really where they are a notable and expert voice, and I think there is probably quite a bit that could be used in the Unrest article. On the specifics of the incident, they were not witness to anything, don't have access to any information other than what we the general public have, nor are they experts in the narrower legal issues that would control if its a justified shooting or not (And at this point its the grand jury's opinion that matters). At most I would say them calling for a transparent process/due process etc is valuable, but not their more specific opinions of the shooting itself (which although they lean to Brown, are still fairly neutral on the whole)Gaijin42 (talk) 21:47, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Its absolutely not the first time they've accused the US. They regularly criticize death penalty (especially of mentally disabled) as human rights abuses, general prison conditions (especially the Supermaxes and isolation), and other issues. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The Times thinks otherwise: It's the first time the human rights group has documented abuses inside the U.S. [6] - Cwobeel (talk) 03:15, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

From the end of the Time article:

"The original version of this story misstated the nature of Amnesty International’s work in the United States. The group has researched human rights abuses in the United States previously. This August was the first time the organization sent a delegation of observers, advocates and trainers to document unrest anywhere in the United States."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 03:32, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems they updated that after I read the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Officers are allowed to use deadly force to subdue fleeing felons if they pose a significant threat of bodily harm to officers or others per Tennessee v. Garner (as a few sources have noted, including Daily Kos and CNN). According to several eyewitness accounts, and consistent with the physical evidence, Brown both punched Wilson in the face repeatedly to the point where Wilson feared he might pass out, and went for his gun; assuming that is the case, then deadly force would be authorized to subdue him in any case under Garner, but given that several accounts (and the blood spatter patterns) indicate that Brown was approaching Wilson at the time of his death, it may well be that it was a simple case of self defense. The idea that his being unarmed meant that he was "unlikely" to pose a threat to Wilson's life is just wrong; if Brown did indeed go for Wilson's gun (and the physical evidence is consistent with that idea), then his being unarmed is utterly irrelevant - someone who goes for a gun is always going to be considered a lethal threat. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:47, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

useless supposed witness statements

seven or eight witnesses have given testimony consistent with Wilson's account. Details of the testimony were not reported.

so basically, this is whats being said here.

7 or 8 witneses said something which supports at least some part of wilsons side of the story.in what way or to what extent is not being reported.

did I read that right?.99.235.56.10 (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

You have a point, and feel free to discuss how to clarify, bearing in mind that we know nothing about the specifics. We're largely limited by what the sources say, and "consistent with Wilson's account" is verbatim what that source says. Trying to help the reader understand what that means, without support from reliable sources, would be inconsistent with Wikipedia policy—even if we thought we had a clue what it means, which I don't.

In your excerpt above, you omit an important part, "According to several people close to the grand jury investigation...". So the "consistent with Wilson's account" is not in Wikipedia's voice.

If you're suggesting the passage should be removed entirely, I think that would be inconsistent with WP:NPOV. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 17:15, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it's important. The fact that they're all black and have not spoken out publicly out of fear for their safety does imply the 'consistency with Wilson's account' is not trivial. Saeranv (talk) 20:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Disagreed. More strategic leaks, which we should not promote beyond what sources say. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Hence, "We're largely limited by what the sources say." Or, if you're replying only to Saeranv, I don't think they suggested going beyond what the sources say. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 22:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't really know if there's anything we can do about it. It is important and notable, and per WP:BLP, we must be fair to living persons at all times. That a large number of people refused to talk to the media due to fear of violent reprisal is unfortunate, but there is little we can do but report on it; given that grand jury testimony is generally sealed, we may never acquire more information beyond this, and we're limited to what these sources have told us. There is no particular reason to believe that they are less credible than other eyewitnesses who we know more about. After everything calms down, we may end up condensing down the eyewitness testimony section anyway, so more of it may end up looking like that in the end. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:52, 27 October 2014 (UTC)