Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign): Difference between revisions

RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy)

See /RFC1

Sanctions enforcement

All articles related to the gamergate controversy are subject to General sanctions

Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement

Culling substandard sources

This is a controversial article which deals with very specific WP:BLP topics, but is plagued with substandard sourcing. There is really no need to have 153 sources detailing the minutia of the controversy. I suggest removing all the sources labeled as op-eds, and all of the gaming press sources. That would leave mainstream outlets like the BBC, public radio, PBS, The New Yorker, Slate, The New York Times, The Independent, The Boston Globe, Le Monde, Salon, CNN, Mother Jones, The Guardian, Wired, Time, LA Times etc, so long as the sources were not to their editorial page. This would mean removing sources like Venture Beat, Ars Technica, IGN, Polygon, The Daily Dot, Kotaku, PC Magazine, The Verge, Gamespot, Gameindustry.biz, Re/code, Eurogamer, etc...

The question of the RfC: Shall we limit the sourcing of this article to mainstream secondary sources, removing all niche game journalism sources, niche tech journalism sources, opinion/editorials columns, and personal blogs?

We just don't need to use niche publications to create an article for this topic. aprock (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

discussion

• There's a case to be made for some of the sources you've suggested dropping, but it might be a valuable exercise to cull the sourcing in general. There are all ready too many footnotes to marginal or situationally useful references. Protonk (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• There will be a few "substandard" sources I think we need to keep, such as Tolito's Kotaku rebuttal to the initial Quinn charge. But I do think that a few step of seeing what claims made by substandard sources can be moved to a good RS should be done first, and then see what the next step (eg how many statements only sourcable to substandard ones are left). --MASEM (t) 19:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Sources like that are reasonable to keep if they are referred to in the mainstream press. Thus if his rebuttal is discussed, in say the Wall Street Journal, the primary source can be included. aprock (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's reasonable. But I think that determination should come after we do, wherever possible, replacement of weak RS to strong RS that support the same fact (eg what should be non-issue as that's just general improvement) What's left will then have to take a more cautious approach. --MASEM (t) 19:57, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• the request is too broad. as a purely cultural event, opinions/analysis/commentary are necessary to understand the controversy's place and impact in culture. removing the items that place it in context is inimical to a good article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

No one is suggesting removing analysis and commentary of the event. In fact, per WP:PSTS we rely on secondary sources to perform topic synthesis. However, per WP:RSOPINION, opinion pieces are generally not reliable sources for much beyond what the author thinks. If a mainstream source indicates that the editorial is of particular interest, then including it might be reasonable. Including it simply because it exists, is contrary to WP:DUE. aprock (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you reading a different proposal than I am? Shall we limit the sourcing of this article to mainstream secondary sources, removing all ... opinion/editorials columns, and personal blogs? yes, there is not only the suggestion but actual statement we remove from consideration some of the prime locations to derive high quality , in-depth opinion/commentary/analysis to be left with soundbites culled from "news" articles. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:08, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I suspect that your definition of "high quality" is considerably different that that of the mainstream. Which "high quality" source would this proposal affect? aprock (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

"high quality" relative to the sources available for an issue that is 3 months old. When the academic reviews come in, then the editorials are likely to be the second tier of quality. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Eliminating tech sources for an article about a technocultural controversy seems arbitrary or WP:POINTY. In some cases, though perhaps not in all, the technical press will offer expertise or detail not available to more general sources. Often, requests for source purges of this nature are really seeking to eliminate sourcing for critical sections of an article, which can then be removed, or preparing for a fresh visit to AfD. Neither is likely to be effective here. Moreover, if all this pruning will be done while the article remains capped with an NPOV template, we’ll continually be wrangling over whether each change is a further attempt to deskew the article. I do not see this as a productive path forward. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "pointy". If the tech sources are high quality mainstream sources they are probably reasonable. Which tech sources do you think are particularly high quality mainstream sources? aprock (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• This seems like a good broad principle and an absolutely terrible hard and fast rule. Oppose. Artw (talk) 20:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Seems incredibly overbroad to me to suggest that we can't use well-known tech/gaming journalism sources, which are those which have covered this matter most extensively. The Verge and Polygon in particular are run by noted journalists with a pretty significant history of quality work. Also, if we remove all of the sources you suggest, we will be left with far fewer "pro-GamerGate" voices — no Erik Kain, no APGNation, no MetalEater, no CinemaBlend, no Cathy Young, no Christina Hoff Sommers, etc. The ramifications of the fact that the only pro-GamerGate sources are of such marginal quality is an exercise left for the reader. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Which of the tech/gaming sources are particularly "well-known"? aprock (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, as I said, The Verge for one. As per its Alexa rank (426), it receives more traffic than Slate (611), Wired (623), Salon (1,088) or Mother Jones (3,700), just to name a few of those you named. Its staff consists of well-known tech journalists including Nilay Patel and its reporting is widely cited and commented upon beyond its site. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:30, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not at all clear that Alexa traffic is a good barometer of mainstream. The Verge is just barely three years old. I personally don't have any issue with the site, and know nothing about it's editorial practices. Is there any reporting there that is crucial to the article, and which can't be sourced to other mainstream sources? If so, it may be reasonable to use it, but it's probably not a big loss if it's not used. I could be wrong though. aprock (talk) 22:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, then what is a good barometer of mainstream other than just arguing by assertion that tech sites can't be mainstream? And why would Wired be mainstream and The Verge not? More people read The Verge than read Wired, at least based upon available traffic stats. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

That's a good question, but again I don't think website traffic is the way to answer it. There may be some insight at mainstream media if you're curious to investigate further. aprock (talk) 23:00, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not up to me to answer it — you're the one making the claim that Wired is "mainstream" and The Verge is not. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:18, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. I don't really care one way or another about The Verge. If it is generally considered a high quality mainstream source, then it should be included.aprock (talk) 23:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, that's all I needed to hear. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:32, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Seems a bit too sweeping to be practical, but it's hard to say sight unseen. Could a version be worked on as a subpage here, to see what the article would look like if such sources were pruned? Tarc (talk) 20:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support: as nominator. The quality of sources in the article is extremely low. Erring on the side of higher quality sources is a much better course to tack. aprock (talk) 22:23, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: It's a cultural issue surrounding games, I'm pretty sure game and tech sites are relevant --Frybread (talk) 22:45, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support: Kotaku is unbiased.[1] Source 1: Kotaku. --DSA510 Pls No H8 23:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and if you're going to whine that Gawker is a bastion of gold journalism, [1]. Just a few months after the "Fappening", they do a hard 180, and use (semi)nude pics for traffic. Don't bother reporting it, I have a local copy. --DSA510 Pls No H8 00:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose until nominator describes a meaningful process for defining which sources are "mainstream" that amounts to more than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:22, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Allow me to suggest that WP:BLP, WP:RS, and WP:DUE be our guides. aprock (talk) 23:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Then you agree that The Verge is a perfectly-acceptable reliable source for this article and not "substandard" in any way? I don't object to looking at replacing The Daily Dot, CinemaBlend, etc. where possible, but The Verge is a pretty vital source which has extensively covered this issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:26, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree or disagree with respect to The Verge. It's up to the community to determine that this is a high quality mainstream source. It's not my call. Personally, I have no real experience with it, and have no clue how often it is used by other media. aprock (talk) 23:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a bad idea. Mainstream sources are being incredibly lazy with regard to this topic. It would further exacerbate the problems the article's having. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:50, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support, to some extent - I don't think it should be strictly limited to "mainstream only" as some of the industry-specific sources may give insight into the greater "chilling effects" on the industry. "Mainstream" will also ultimately be an arbitrary criteria. I'm not sure I agree with the assessment of substandard v standard - is it ultimately saying that if something is mentioned in a smaller source instead of mainstream sources, it is less reliable? I guess I tend to agree with that. But - if something is mentioned in mainstream and lesser-known both, and both are cited here, I definitely agree that the lesser-known can be culled, especially in a long article like this one (as Masem says below). And if there are details used in this article that are only cited in one (or maybe two) niche sources but not in the major press coverage, those should probably be reconsidered for inclusion. Either way I will be watching this with interest, as a related article I've been keeping an eye on uses almost exclusively what aprock describes here as "substandard sources," but that is a much more industry-specific article, while comparatively this issue has broken out into a higher level of media awareness so there are more sources to choose from. Hustlecat ^{do it!} 23:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as rather arbitrary. The technical press is not automatically of low quality, and in many cases it's the best source. I'm not completely opposed to suggestions that redundant sources should be trimmed. And where we do this, we should always take care to select the best source for the context. --TS 23:31, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Support This has gotten a lot of mainstream coverage, we don't need biased journals. Mr. Guye (talk) 02:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Partial step: Replace low quality with high quality sources supporting same point

This is basically what I describe above, but to repeat, and highlight , I do suggest that a partial step that should not be as much of an issue is to replace any weak RS that is not tied to a quote or specific opinion with an high quality RS that can source the same point, if one does exist. If there doesn't exist a strong RS replacement, leave it for the time being. After we do that, we should be able to make a better judgement of what the quality of sourcing looks like if we need a further step. --MASEM (t) 22:31, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

What are these weaker sources that you suggest be replaced?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

The same list given above. But again, to be clear, this is only if a better quality RS can source the exact same point; there's definitely points where the writing in the finer details would require a specific source to be used and that couldn't be changed out. --MASEM (t) 22:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with this. Tarc (talk) 22:44, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems like an easier first pass to take. aprock (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Sounds sensible. No objection here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Specifically: IGN, The Daily Dot, PC Magazine, Gamespot and Gameindustry.biz can go. Ars Technica and Kotaku should stay. The former because they are generally reliable (and widely relied upon in tech articles) and the latter because it is unavoidable. Protonk (talk) 23:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I would add TechCrunch and CinemaBlend to the list of those we can look to replace. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Reliability must always be evaluated on a case-by-case matter. As someone who works in IT, I can say that the mainstream can sometimes be a poor source about technical topics, as it may be written by journalists who don't understand the topics they are writing about. Sources who specialize in a topic can often provide better coverage since it is what they specialize in. If we eliminate the technical press from technology-related articles, what's next? Should we stop citing astronomy sources in articles about astronomy? This is a bad idea. Each source must be judge individually, not by sweeping assertions. See WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I was not aware that there were any technical aspects of this controversy. As best I can tell, you are arguing to use primary sources above secondary sources. Given the degree of misuse that primary sources can cause, it's pretty clear that secondary sources should be used for the greatest part. To the extent that using primary sources makes sense, that should be determined by the secondary sources. aprock (talk) 00:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There may not be technical aspects to the controversy, but the gaming industry and community can be abstruse to those not part of it. The topic's not going to be served by handing it over exclusively to mainstream sources. Willhesucceed (talk) 05:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

This doesn't make sense given the suggestion. If we have a point sourced to , say, ArsTech, and the same point can be sourced to NYTimes, we should use the better quality source. On the other hand, if ArsTech goes into some detail on a technical point we have, and the NYtimes touches but glosses over the details, we should keep the ArsTech in this first partial step. The only suggestions I'm saying is when the 1-to-1 replacement is obvious. --MASEM (t) 06:53, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment. Summoned here by bot. I agree that only the highest quality sources should be used for text that presents a genuine BLP issue. However I would not agree with a blanket prohibition on industry publications. Coretheapple (talk) 18:22, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Tooooooo long

Whoever tagged this, "This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably", was absolutely right. I offer a barnstar for the first editor who in a non-vandalistic way manages to cut this article down to 80k. [Psst: I understand you want to stick everything in here, but the result is that no one can read it.] Drmies (talk) 02:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I will take up this challenge --Guerillero | My Talk 04:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies:The current size is 61K would a size of 50ish K be good? --Guerillero | My Talk 04:30, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Guerillero--wait, 61K? I see 127,386 bytes. Drmies (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

127,386 bytes includes wiki markup, comments, etc... The recommendations in WP:SIZERULE are for the size of the prose, sans-markup. According to User:Dr_pda/prosesize the prose size, text-only, is 61 kB (9723 words). Article is basically on the edge of what is recommended. — Strongjam (talk) 16:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Alright, forget what I said about numbers: the article is way too long and too detailed. Drmies (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

One of the things that is beefing up the size are lengthy quotes from various sources, which, rough estimate, take about 33% of the prose length here. I've tagged the article with {{quotefarm}} to indicate this but this is probably just a matter of review each of the longer quotes and culling down to core statements from each. --MASEM (t) 07:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Simply cutting down redundant attack quotes would make this article much shorter and easier to follow.AioftheStorm (talk) 20:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, there are way too many quotes. The reason there are so many quotes is that every attempt to write a paraphrased summation of the mainstream POV based on those sources was summarily rejected as "introducing bias." If we could work toward expressing the mainstream POV in Wikipedia's voice, we could get rid of a lot of quotes. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:36, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

No question this article is outrageously overlong. Surely its importance does not outrank that of, for example, NASA, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, personal computer or Fast Fourier transform. — Objectivesea (talk) 10:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Trimmed article by Totlmstr

I made a separate page for testing based on Drmies's recent edit (the one on whether Let's Players were mentioned), and I trimmed the article using Notepad++. It cuts the article down from the above 61 kB (9723 words) to 44 kB (6944 words). Note that I barely added anything on there and most of the work was deletions. You can check the abbreviated edit comment on there as an insight. I removed some of the references, and these were commented out at the bottom of the article. Totlmstr (talk) 04:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Wow. That's a huge difference. I tell you what, lots of people or not going to like it, but I do. (But I am not as familiar with the material as some others.) Thanks! Drmies (talk) 04:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. It is a huge difference and the focus on this article is much better. There were at least three paragraphs dedicated to one source and multiple quotes in the same line that were too extraneous (a double quote by Anita in one sentence and three quotes by Kain in a row in three sentences; both were knocked by one each) and articles that focused on a blip in the controversy (An entire paragraph dedicated to a blogger and is not mentioned anywhere else in the article? How relevant is that?). Totlmstr (talk) 04:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I feel like this is a fair place to start working, but there's several removals that I think unnecessarily weaken the narrative, particularly in terms of addressing the movement's claims re: journalism ethics and DiGRA. Also, the "Attacks on women" section should not be smaller than "The Fine Young Capitalists" section, given the relative weight of the two issues in mainstream reliable sources (lots and lots of attention to the movement's attacks on women, not really any at all on TFYC). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

At this point, I'm allowing the mods to just go ahead and edit this page as they need. My original edit was the base requirement I would like to see on the page proper. Also, I do not see how size comparisons are important here. Shouldn't it be the content? Totlmstr (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

We weight content based on its relative prevalence in reliable sources. That is, stuff that's discussed a lot in reliable sources should get more space than stuff that isn't. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

By following that at the general level, DiGRA has only mentioned GamerGate as a blurb on their website as far as I can tell with my simplistic Google searching. I can't find anything else that has a better leaning than TFYC, which organization was deeply involved with Zoe Quinn, at the center of a controversy for at least a solid month, amd part of the 4chan debacles involving Vivian James and several other things that are/should be in the TFYC article proper. I believe that until DiGRA releases their full length articles directly about GamerGate (they must have released something of note about the topic directly), their section really should be that short in the article in my opinion. Totlmstr (talk) 05:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

My objection re: DiGRA there is that you dramatically shortened DiGRA's response while leaving the attack entirely intact.

As for TFYC, they are, as per the reliable sources, more or less a minor footnote in this issue. While perhaps deserving more space than Anil Dash's incident, they don't deserve much more. They certainly don't deserve more space than the discussion section on "Attacks on women," for which Gamergate is far more notable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

My point still stands. By all means, if you want to add something in, do so in the page I created. Totlmstr (talk) 05:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Totlmstr is just another zombie account. No edits for months and then right into Gamergate as if he's a neutral party. The fact that his draft of the article is removing more content critical of Gamergate and leaving in the stuff supportive of it is proof as such.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I explicity mention I am a lurker on Wikipedia and I follow my interests on my page. I normally don't go on Talk pages and I don't contribute that often to Wikipedia due to most of the pages I am on already have enough edits or sections. Additionally, I am more active off-site than on here, so "zombie account" may as well be half-correct. You are free to not listen if you so desire. Totlmstr (talk) 05:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You're here from KotakuInAction though.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Do you even sometimes assume good faith? This article needs trimming and everybody knows it, but when someone tries to do it, people from either side shoot them down.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeletos (talk • contribs) 08:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

You removed the entire Anil Dash paragraph when there were multiple sources discussing it and using it as an example of how trolling and right wingers were exploiting the Gamergate movement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Anil Dash (I do not know enough about the person) was, at the really basic level, threatened by an anonymous poster on her blog that she posted on a random day. It is not even known if it was even related to GamerGate at all, so I thought it would be best to hold on putting it up there than impulsively adding it in. It was explained in the earlier paragraphs that anyone could make threats of any kind and anyone can use the hashtag at will, but, so far, nothing of merit or confirmation as far as I know of has come out of it. And it was, like I said, a very small blip in the entire controversy; it is not mentioned anywhere else in the article as of my edit. Totlmstr (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm willing to say the Anil Dash thing was a flash in the pan that we can trim. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Anil Dash is a man who got harassed by that "lawyer" we're not allowed to talk about due to vague BLP violations who made himself to be a "leader" of Gamergate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Generally agree on Totlmster's trimmed version, which primarily aimed at the quotes, and that helps a lot. I do agree that we should be focusing on a broader narrative and not get into weedy details like Anil Dash's aspect. --MASEM (t) 05:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Not at all. Totlmstr's just another Redditor from KIA trying to pull the wool over our eyes. His edits almost exclusively remove content critical of Gamergate while leaving lengthy sections that prove it right.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure how my posting history off-site is relevant on Wikipedia. Totlmstr (talk) 05:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It shows that you are not a neutral party here. And your proposed cuts show that as well.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

True, I am not a neutral party at all. However, I am judging the article based on the content and context of the article itself, not on the premise of whether or not this fits with me. I also wanted to take this challenge because the article is really way too long and needs to be compressed somehow. It is, however, a strange coincidence that the majority of the lengthy quotes (especially the paragraphs that I have deleted) were from that same side and had what would be redundancy in the paragraphs themselves. For example, the MetalEater paragraph in "Legitimacy over Ethics Concerns" section says, at the lowest level, the same thing as the paragraph right above it, and that has two articles referenced. Another example is the Grant remark in "Nature and Organization" is more concise and direct than the quote and remark combination before it. In both cases, these references can be moved to another location so that way the article doesn't talk about a single subject for too long (which you can edit in the page I linked, and I'm letting you do so without any interference from me as of that recent edit). Does Wikipedia really need multiple lengthy quotes back to back just to explain one point when an even better reference can do it that easily? Shouldn't some of these quotes be compressed so that way they fit the narrative? Totlmstr (talk) 06:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Finding redundancies is one thing. And as stated multiple times on this page (and in its archives) the quotes have been used because there have been a large contingent of users who have argued that the paraphrasing of these sources has not been adequate as it presents the information within that they have generally disagreed with as being written in Wikipedia's voice rather than the voice of the writer. While it may be useful to cut out some of these (and the Anil Dash paragraph/sentence) it just seemed odd at first glance. TFYC should be given less prevalence on the page if we are cutting out some of this other content (and I am still convinced we should merge the separate article to this one).—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I made this its own subsection, by the way. starship.paint ~ regal 06:37, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and WP:BOLDly created a subpage working draft, at Talk:GamerGate controversy/Working draft. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I suggest adding the Controversial tag to this talk

I, Tony Sidaway (who opposed the motion) recognise that consensus exists to tag this article as controversial. The effect of adding the tag to the talk page is described at template:controversial/doc.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
It just seems odd to me it's not here there's been a lot of arguing on this page. Template:Controversial HalfHat 20:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Weak Support - Adding the tag to the talk seems non-controversial to me. A little concerned about template overload though. — Strongjam (talk) 20:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC) On reflection and taking into consideration other comments, amending to weak support. I think a better solution might be to move the general sanctions template higher up so that it's more noticeable. Perhaps right below the BLP notice. I do share TRPoD's concerns about the load and save times which can be pretty bad at times. — Strongjam (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Support - Much better than edit-warring over the NPOV tag. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Oppose until supported by policy. This seems to be simply another attempt to attach a badge of shame to the page. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC) I have no idea why you'd think that, it's little more than a warning to editors. HalfHat 21:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Support --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Something we can all agree on. (maybe) Tutelary (talk) 21:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Support - This controversy is ongoing and while I disagree with the NPOV tags removal, it's more important to me that readers at least be notified that the editors are not at a consensus on the topic. Digman14 (talk) 21:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Oppose as this seems to be yet another attempt to beat a dead horse. The sanctions notice tells everybody here we've got a severe conduct problem; going back to pretending it's merely a matter of lack of consensus within policy would be misleading. --TS 21:42, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Support Even though NPOV discussions are still ongoing that tag was not producing consensus as the article is too controversial. Maybe when it dies down, the controversy will fade and neutrality will be achievable. --DHeyward (talk) 21:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC) in theory, why not, but every transclusion increases the load and save time for this already very long and slow page, and so for practical reasons, no, unless some of the other tags are removed/replaced -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:26, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Support The decision to remove it was clearly made with no concensus. We tried to vote on it before. But then someone just said "this is not a vote" and removed it anyways, and those who protested got banned.--Torga (talk) 11:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC) To clarify. This isn't for the NPOV tag, but for the controversial article tag and applies only to the talk page and hasn't be added or removed in the past to the best of my knowledge. — Strongjam (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Support If an article is such a hot potato that labeling it controversial is controversial, then we have a controversial article. Also one in need of a rewrite. Skeletos (talk) 08:12, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Auerbach

This is now a dispute resolution matter. Let's all step aside while the parties settle it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Auerbach has tweeted about some issues he has with our use of his articles. He has so far only explained one specific concern, but more could be provided. Specifically he criticized Ryulong's material regarding the Salon response to Auerbach's piece on GamerGate moderates. Hanchen's change to another detail was not mentioned, but I think the previous wording is likely to be seen as a better reflection of what he wrote.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC) This is what happens when editor drive the narrative away from a clinically neutral stance. The less we try to read between the lines to stack up the case against once side, the less likely will misinterpret the sources. --MASEM (t) 23:29, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Masem, please don't turn this thread into yet another extension of an argument over editors' motivations and POVs, because we have plenty of those already. Let's focus on looking at Auerbach's critiques and addressing them. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Why am I being called out at all?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Having taken a look at the source material, I agree that the wording prior to Hahnchen's change ([Auerbach] argued that gaming culture is changing, with the ordinary video-game journalist being phased out in favor of video game enthusiasts and amateur Let's Play commentators who use YouTube and Twitch) is probably a better paraphrase, and it avoids the pointed word "accused." If we can get consensus for this change, let's throw up an editprotected request and get that fixed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC) In September, I tweaked Auerbach's statement in the article, because it had been edited to make it look like he was agreeing with Alexander.[2] I further trimmed bits of the article to make his stance stronger. Saying stuff like "gaming culture is changing" is the same as saying nothing at all. Instead of "attacking", we could use "alienating" which is what he used in his article.[3] - hahnchen 00:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I'd say this certainly warrants a proper checking. HalfHat 23:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC) I always wondered why we bothered with the Auerbach material; much of it is just this guy's opinion (and for what it's worth, we don't have an article about him). Do we need that material? --TS 23:41, 12 November 2014 (UTC) To clarify, I think the problem is that we include a lot of he-said, she-said which is just pundits imposing their own predefined views on an unfolding situation. Looking back, much of the stuff from Kain, Auerbach and others seems almost surreally misplaced in the midst of all the death threats and all the slimy creatures that were parading themselves before our eyes on a daily basis. There's a place for media analysis, but it's possible to go overboard. --TS 23:50, 12 November 2014 (UTC) You're basically advocating for the removal of opinions because they don't conform with your POV. HalfHat 00:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC) No, I think this is just too much inside baseball and the article is very long. Why should Auerbach's opinions be mentioned in the article? --TS 00:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC) This could be said for many other of the singular opinions made in this article. We are citing a lot of random people (journalists, yes, but with no skin in the game). It's fine to quote people like Quinn, Wu, etc. who are directly involved, and people like the DiGRA present (name slips mind) who's organization is being affected by this. It's also sometimes necessary to quote key RSes to give a "colorful" description that summarizes a point made by many sources. But there's a lot of other random quotes pulled into this article just to boost signal. --MASEM (t) 01:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Broadly speaking, I agree that there is rather too much chatter in the article. I can see how it happened. In the early stages the mainstream sources hadn't quite made up their minds what was going on and all the defaults kicked in. These voices have subsided in importance now that the true nature and origins of Gamergate have become more widely known. --TS 11:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Auerbach's tweets appear to be without merit, as this article is simply citing Elias Isquith's opinions of Auerbach's Slate piece. Remember the old "venerability, not truth" Wiki-standby. He has no leg to stand on, and argumentum ad Jimboem is just as much of a logical fallacy off-wiki as it is on-wiki. Now if we wish to have a discussion on whether to include any of this in the article at all, that's another matter entirely. At first glance it does seem like we're straying too much into opinion-of-an-opinion-of-an-opinion. If we're looking to slim down the article, this may be the edge to start at. Tarc (talk) 00:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Agree, an admin should probably close this section. If there are actually any issues, anyone David or Jimbo included, can post to the talk page. aprock (talk) 00:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Probably shut it, but I think it was right to post this anyway. It was worth looking into. HalfHat 00:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC) This is a BLP issue. When you attribute a statement to a living person, and then that living person objects to your interpretation of that statement, that's a BLP issue. Tutelary (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC) If you think there is a BLP issue, feel free to take it to WP:BLPN. aprock (talk) 00:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Or we could just clarify the statement. Take to a noticeboard when no need / fix the statement itself. I wonder which one... Tutelary (talk) 00:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC) A subject disagreeing with an article isn't automatically a BLP issue. It's something to be concerned about, but expressly not dealt with in the same manner as BLP violations. If you disagree and feel this represents an issue covered under BLP, you may consider asking for help at BLPN. Protonk (talk) 00:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Let's start by cutting the "In Salon, Elias Isquith..." paragraph: as Tarc put it, an opinion on an opinion on an opinion. Drmies (talk) 02:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I don't think complete culling is necessary. It's a point-counterpoint situation.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Well, I disagree. It's rather counterpoint-countercounterpoint. I don't know who wrote that awful paragraph, but "actions in making himself a neutral party" is barely English, and "criticizing him for saying that women harassed and threatened and men attacking those who challenged their privilege should both be held responsible" doesn't look like proper English to me at all. Drmies (talk) 02:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I'm down with significantly chopping the Isquith paragraph. We could go down the rabbit hole with point/counterpoint. Perhaps just cut it to Isquith criticized Auerbach's analysis, calling it an appeal to moderation "that negates any group or individual responsibility" for Gamergate's behavior. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC) "and to better present the concerns of the Gamergate hashtag to the public at large"--I do not see that in the cited article. Unless someone can point me to the original sentence/section from which this comes, I'm going to remove it by executive privilege. Drmies (talk) 02:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC) "Auerbach criticized the Brandwatch study as being "defective quantitative analysis" aimed at stopping GamerGate" is now removed: the "How to end Gamergate" article doesn't mention Brandwatch at all, and the direct quote "defective quantitative analysis" is not given the appropriate context. Who added that sentence to the article? That person should not be editing sensitive articles on Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 02:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC) "WHAT DIDN’T WORK...Defective quantitative analysis." which links to this. That's the Brandwatch mention. Also that's in the full article view.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Ryulong, I think I'm having a Javascript issue, which is why I didn't "see" that link--no, I see it now: Slate needs to read WP:COLOR; I can't see the difference, only when I hover over it. I still don't like the original sentence: I don't like how the Brandwatch study isn't explicitly mentioned in Auerbach's piece; I don't like that no real critique is offered in his piece, just the naked statement that it is supposedly defective. If someone feels a desperate need to stick that sentence back in, I suppose they have my blessing and all they have to do is ask some admin, which could be me, to stick it back in. Now, I don't know if Auerbach is watching this--hey, Mr. Auerbach, I don't have a Twitter account and it's much easier for us to respond here to specific points than it is to guess what you're pointing at. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 03:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC) These are the reasons why I removed it in the first place, dubbing it a throwaway line. Right now, I think you should just remove the Salon paragraph, it's a badly written counter-point to an opinion that isn't even represented. - hahnchen 03:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I'm about to look at that again; in the meantime I had to put a sick kid to bed. This Twitter stuff, that's fun. I just saw the whole page, this weird alternating sentences conversation, with someone yelling "kike" thrown in. Is that normal? Hey Jimbo, Wikipedia is not as bad as Twitter--I would have blocked that idiot on 6 November, which is the earliest "tweet" I saw from them. Drmies (talk) 03:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC) OK, by now Tutelary is telling me off on my own talk page and Tarc is yelling at Auerbach via Twitter. Great! I tell you what, I am happy I don't have many opinions, and the ones that matter, I prefer to keep to myself. In this thread, I see Tony Sidaway, Hahnchen, and Tarc (I think) agreeing that the Isquith on Auerbach paragraph could/should go, in varying degrees of emphasis. NorthBySouthBaranof offered a sort of compromise, and if you don't mind, I'm going to go with that--I have the feeling that Ryulong would like to have something kept. If anyone disagrees they can protest loudly here, and maybe Mr. Auerbach can tweet a few more tweets so we can see if he thinks this is OK, but NorthbySouth's brief comment has the benefit of a. being close to the source and b. being in digestible English. So I'm going to instate that, somewhat boldly, and we'll see what happens. Let's not have an RfC and a series of edit requests that will take forever to resolve. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 04:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Done. I've also moved it (what is now a sentence); why it was in the "Attacks on Women" wasn't clear to me. IM me if you got a serious problem with it, or call Jimbo (he can send me a carrier pigeon), or leave a note here. Thanks. Ryulong, I hope you're not too pissed at me. Drmies (talk) 04:08, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I'd go "At Salon" or "For Salon" rather than "In Salon" but that's just me.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I think it worthwhile to summarize what one part of what happened here clearly so that other Wikipedians reading this talk page are better able to understand the situation. David Auerbach, who writes for Slate (magazine), expressed a concern on twitter that "@jimmy_wales 152: "women...should both be held responsible for what Gamergate had become" = Isquith does not say I said this, and I didn't." [4]. This refers to the paragraph wisely removed by Drmies after the complaint. It is important that we be really clear - this is a BLP issue. Saying that a writer for a respectable publication was criticized for something as awful as saying that victims of harassment were responsible for that harassment is a serious claim, and it is a claim that was never in the source provided. Meanwhile, Tarc claims that his tweets were "without merit" and further, in Drmies words "Tarc is yelling at Auerbach via twitter." This is a disgrace. I am recommending that Tarc step away from this article permanently, and that if he does not do so voluntarily and continues with this kind of POV warrior behavior that he be topic-banned from this article. There are plenty of good Wikipedians here to look after the article - those who have been engaged in this as a battleground need to leave now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:08, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I did not "yell" ant anyone via Twitter, I responded to someone who is in serious "doth protest too much" mode, that is all. What I do off-wiki is, quite frankly, not your business. @Drmies:, yes, I am in favor of the entire passage being removed if it is this problematic. Tarc (talk) 12:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Well, Tarc, I think you did, but I suppose it was nothing out of the ordinary for Twitter, and I don't think it has a bearing on your editing here. Jimbo Wales, I beg to differ; Tarc and I don't always agree, and I didn't agree with those tweeted comments, but I still think he's a net positive here, in the little that I have seen of this article and its talk page. Still, if we could all tone it down that would be helpful--then again, this was a lot worse a few weeks ago. Look, I was happy to take Auerbach's points and apply them here, and even happier to see that we gained consensus quickly on what are simultaneously minor editing issues and major tone issues. I do not think that such matters are automatically BLP issues (as I saw somewhere else), but in this case incorrect (and/or inept) paraphrasing can amount to a BLP problem. If it hadn't been for a. serious editorial concerns about representation of sources and b. BLP issues I would never have edited this through protection. Anyway, all's well that ends well (for now)--let's look at this glass as half-full, shall we. Drmies (talk) 16:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I think the quotes aren't worth keeping because they're mostly tangential commentary and the article is already far too long -- journalists commenting on other journalists' specific pieces probably doesn't belong here unless it somehow becomes central to the controversy. But I don't think they were (originally) an entirely inaccurate paraphrase, either. The quote Auerbach is objecting to seems to refer to this line in Isquith's piece, which says, at the end: "The women bombarded with violence and abuse, the men hurling invective at anyone challenging their privilege; spurred by his unexamined need to find common ground, both, Auerbach writes, should share in the blame." The quote from the Wikipedia he's objecting to originally summarized that as: "...criticizing his insistence that women harassed and threatened and men attacking those who challenged their privilege should both be held responsible for what Gamergate had become." The only real issue in that is the words "...for what Gamergate had become", since the article doesn't explicitly state what it's accusing Auerbach of saying they should share the blame for, but I think that Ryulong / Tarc's reading is at least somewhat reasonable given the context (it's how I think I would have read the article, at least), and every other part of the quote is basically just Isquith's conclusion run through a thesaurus. Looking over the logs, the real problem started when Halfhat changed 'criticized his insistence' to 'criticized him for saying' here, which shows the problems with applying WP:SAY carelessly -- while it could technically be read the same way, that small tweak dramatically changed the sentence's meaning, since it changed what had been an accurate paraphrase of Isquith-presenting-his-interpretation-of-Auerbach ('Auerbach's article was insisting this') into something that could be read as a claim that Isquith-said-Auerbach-literally-said-this, which was not the case. I assume Tarc missed the fact that Halfhat had accidentally changed the quote's meaning -- it's easy to skim over something you've read many times before and impose a meaning on it in your head based on what you know it's intended to say from having seen previous versions, without noticing that that's no longer the most obvious reading. Anyway the main upshot of it is to please be more careful when replacing text for things like WP:SAY, because sometimes you'll be introducing different meanings; and please read the current version carefully when someone complains about it, trying to clear your head of how it used to read or what you know it's supposed to be saying. --Aquillion (talk) 13:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I have now been directly contacted by David Auerbach. I hope you're happy, The Devil's Advocate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Dear Ryulong, given how you have misrepresented Auerbach with your edit, I think it's perfectly fine for him to "request" that you "please" never write about him again on Wikipedia. I don't know how you saw that as a threat; I would think this whole controversy has enough examples of threats already. Perhaps taking a break from this whole topic would make you happier? starship.paint ~ regal 08:24, 15 November 2014 (UTC) A journalist should not ever demand that someone else censor themselves from ever discussing them again or believe that he is being slandered. He is being fed lies and exaggerations by this movement because I would have never been singled out if it was not because TDA singled me out in his posting here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Ryulong, I would like you to explain how I "threatened" you, which is a serious charge you have now made on my own talk page and here. I made a polite request (I used "Please" in the title), which I felt was more than reasonable given the circumstances of what had happened. Otherwise, I now politely request that you rescind your serious allegation that I "threatened" you. And, in light of this very discussion, I again politely repeat my request that you avoid citing or writing about me on Wikipedia. Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC) So after making a BLP edit on him you now falsely accuse him of threatening you? And admins are supposed to be taking disciplinary actions? Loganmac (talk) 19:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC) I didn't make a BLP edit. No one had any issue or comment with the content I had added until it was falsely misconstrued here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Working draft

Since this is probably going to get lost in the thread above... I've set up a working draft at Draft:Gamergate controversy, and invite folks to work on potential improvements that might gain consensus for a protected edit request. My first series of edits have been trims in the vein of that above thread, working to reduce redundancy and tighten the prose. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Can it be moved to Gamergate controversy/Working draft? It would make it easier for discussion about the draft. Or is full protection cascading? Retartist (talk) 09:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If it's in the article space it gets treated as an article rather than a sub page and that means it gets indexed by search engines and such.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, as per Ryulong above, unfortunately it has to be stuck in the talkpage space. Would be nice to have a better solution for article working drafts... maybe that's something the WMF could look at for a MediaWiki update *cough*Jimbo*cough*. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a draft space for articles for creation submissions, last I checked.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Opposing this because this shouldn't be used as a way to avoid discussion of the topics and a reaching of consensus, and that's exactly what's happening with overly pushy editors to the draft. I like some of the changes and editing, but this is too open to abuse. I made a number of reasonable changes, and someone went in and undid them all. It's a nonsense effort. Abandon. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:00, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

That's how wikis work. Have you tried reverting the changes and discussing why you disagree with them? --TS 15:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I've moved the page to Draft:Gamergate controversy so it has its own talk page. Also, Willhesucceed, you can't do what you did either.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I know we don't see eye to eye, but thanks for taking the time to set this up, it allows some semblance of continuous editing to occur. I wish the regular article wasn't locked, but this is the next best thing. Any idea on if/how changes will come over from the draft to the actual article? Skeletos (talk) 08:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

When a consensus forms.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The best bet is to take it section by section... so make some edits to a section and then open a new subsection here for discussion, like the above discussion on the Mike Morhaime deal. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:52, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That sounds good. I was worried that there would be a lot of reverting by people who didn't participate in the draft. Skeletos (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources, atmosphere of intimidation

Sections that do not have a specific proposed edit or issue to discuss tend to degenerate into general sniping, as this one has. Gamaliel (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I haven't read the entirety of this article; it is so long and cumbersome that just glancing at it gives me vertigo. Unless I'm missing something, it deals with the harassment of female gamers and journalists rather the factual accuracy of the claims made by Anita Sarkeesian and other critics — right? As a disclaimer from a gamer, I'm critical of Sarkeesian's work. I initially came out in full support of Tropes vs. Women and I think she raises numerous valid points, but I feel these are grossly undermined by the tactics that she has used in conveying her perspective. To give an example, her coverage of Hitman: Absolution. I'm sure most everyone here is already familiar with Thunderf00t, one of the more prominent supporters of GamerGate on YouTube (Redacted). I'm not going to conduct a character assassination against anyone and I know that Sarkeesian is not the only woman targeted by the GamerGate controversy, but let's face it: she's probably the one who has received the most attention for her views. As for the situation with Zoe Quinn, I've yet to play Depression Quest so my perspective on the matter is somewhat limited. I have struggled with severe clinical depression for a very long time. The notion that someone is trying to give people a better understanding of the condition is very appealing to me (whether it can actually be conveyed is another story). It doesn't really matter though; harassment is always wrong (Redacted). So now that my biases are out in the open, I'll say what I feel must be said. I've been hesitant to speak out about this particular issue because I have strong and conflicting opinions about it. I'm worried that if I criticize Sarkeesian's misrepresentations (as outlined by Thunderf00t and others), then I'll be shot down by other editors for promoting a fringe view that doesn't have very many reliable sources to back it up. It would also associate me with the misogynist element of the gaming community, and I want no part of that. Conversely, if I say that I support the merits of her activism and consider the harassment levied against women in the gaming community to be vile, then my words could be taken as a ringing endorsement of Sarkeesian's methods and the perennial OR catch-22 (i.e. knowing the facts, yet presenting sources that run counter to them because of their credibility). I can't be the only one who is uncomfortable even posting on this page for that very reason. What's there to be done? Kurtis (talk) 17:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Good. Please don't, then. I've removed (per BLP) a large amount of material from your comment that sounds like the same kind of vile nonsense that gets out given as an excuse for the hate campaigns against women in gaming. There is no reason for that to be here, because the hate mongers who spread this nonsense are not reliable sources. If you feel that you cannot comment here please undergo dispute resolution. TS 18:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I don't believe anything I posted in my original comment violated BLP in any way, although I'm sure most others would disagree with me on that point (your removal appears to have the implicit support of all other participants in this discussion), so I won't re-add my original text. I feel my comments were well-substantiated and targeted the crux of her criticisms, rather than making baseless accusations and casting her in an unduly negative light (which is what you've implicitly accused me of doing). I find the equivalence you've drawn between my words and the "vile nonsense"/"hate campaigns against women in gaming" to be absolutely disgusting and a complete mischaracterization of my original post. In all my years of editing this site, I have never felt so offended as I do now. Kurtis (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC) A large problem here is that the viewpoint towards Quinn/Sarkeesian's views (prior to GG) are not well documented. I know I can read lots of forum threads about how come see that, but we have very little reliable sources about them. We have some that extend from the Depression Quest commentary on Quinn which are already in the article, but that's pretty much the extent that I know I've found. As WP can really only work on what is reported by reliable sources, we really cannot express those views further until they are properly covered. --MASEM (t) 17:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC) This article is not about Sarkeesian and any potential "misrepresentations" some may attribute to her. It is about the gamergate controversy. and "no matter what the victim has done to attract it" WOW! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Yes, exactly. There is no justification for harassment, which was my central point. Please do not take my original comment out of context. I'm not trying to suggest that she "had it coming" or anything like that. Kurtis (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I just watched part of that video and read some of the comments, and now I'm going to wash my eyes. Drmies (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Keep in mind that the source of harassment isn't known fully. In before le No True Scotsman maymay. And, again, "The harassment obviously came from the all the males of gamergate"[1] Source: Gawker. --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC) au contraire, my dear friend. Sarkeesian's threats are explicitly sourced from those claiming affiliation with gamergate. When you run a "movement" that's only identification is the use of a hashtag, you get "credit" for all done under the name of the hashtag, something the next generation of "movements" will probably keep in mind. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I'll see your link and raise you a [5] [6]. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Yes, the largest newspaper in the state of Utah is "propaganda." Sure, makes sense. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC) There were two specific threats at USU. The first, the one that inferred the Ecole Polytech shootings, had no explicit GG attachment, though it is assumed by most to be a GG one. The second was specifically from someone claiming to be GG, but it wasn't the same type of threat that the first one had. And no, we as WP editor cannot write this assuming that if someone did it under the hashtag, that everyone supporting the hashtag is responsible - we do have plenty of sources criticizing anyone that wants to actually discuss ethics to either get away from GG and use a new tag, or clearly call out condemnation of harassment in a unified voice so everyone knows its trolls usurping the hashtag. --MASEM (t) 18:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC) This might be related to my previous section about reorganizing the article. The topic of this article is not clear, because what the phrasing "gamergate controversy" is one person will be different for another, even if the way the phrase is taken in the way to mean "the ethical issues" is a fringe view, it still is a far different meaning. We really need to have it determined by consensus and reflected in the article what this article is specifically about. If it is about the movement (which would then be heavily weighted necessarily by its criticism) then yes, the issues about Quinn/Sarkeesian before GG started are valid if they can be reliably sourced. --MASEM (t) 18:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Back to the topic at hand. what specifically do you wish to change in the article and what sources are you basing that recommendation on? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Sorry for the unclear original post, I had an appointment to attend and was in a bit of a hurry. My problem is with the overall atmosphere of anything related to Gamergate, Sarkeesian, Quinn, or gender equality. Whether you agree or disagree with one side of the dispute, I don't think anyone would deny that it's a patently toxic editing environment. I feel as if Tony Sidaway's post above is emblematic of exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about: being critical of Sarkeesian (or any other activist) in any way, shape, or form is equated to misogyny or a character assassination. Even if you agree with the merits of their position (that women are given unfair representation in the media, particularly in video games), you can still say that you disagree with some aspect of how they are representing their case. Surely there must be some academic sources that delve into detail about a more critical perspective, sans the abject sexism. The same can be said of being fully supportive of Sarkeesian's position, where those who back her are accused of pushing a "feminist agenda" or the like. This sprawling talk page and its archives are so intimidating that no one in their right mind would willingly subject themselves to the pressures of editing this article unless they were willing to pick a fight. I'm trying to get the ball rolling so that we can take a good, hard look at ourselves and realize that these gender wars are a corrosive influence on our ability to act rationally. I don't think dispute resolution has yet achieved a satisfactory editing environment. Oh, and in case it wasn't clear, I want to reaffirm that I do not in any way condone the vile harassment campaigns that women within the gaming community have been subjected to. To repeat what I said above, I didn't mean to imply that the victim of harassment had it coming or anything of the sort. That was a mistake on my part. Kurtis (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC) It's been established nobody here condones the harassment. --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I had assumed as much. Kurtis (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC) If you have a user conduct issue, take it to the board set up for user conduct issues Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement do not whine or cast aspersions here. If you have a specific article content edit, be clear about what should be changed and supply sources. If you just want to comment and discuss, go somewhere else, this is NOT a chat forum -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I don't think the general sanctions are doing enough. Do you not notice the level of rancour that has taken hold on this talk page and in any other discussion pertaining to Gamergate? There's an open request for arbitration right now, and honestly, I'd like for them to accept a case. If not, then I think we need to seriously consider discussing ways in which to tone down the atmosphere of this page and others. No one wants to edit an article whose talk page is on fire. I'm actually going to disengage myself from this topic. It's clear that I feel too strongly about it to contribute impartially. Sorry I wasted your time. Here's hoping you can all find a way to collaborate effectively on this subject. Kurtis (talk) 21:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC) This page is not for whining the the general sanctions arent doing enough when you are making any effort to use them but are just whining about editors here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC) TheRedPenOfDoom, take it easy please. There is no need to browbeat everyone who comes along. Kurtis's comment may be seen as forumposting to some, but there is no denying that this is not a pleasant work environment, and you're not helping. Drmies (talk) 03:07, 14 November 2014 (UTC) Indeed. I suggest that TheRedPenOfDoom take a week or so to cool off. I'm trying to minimalize my snark, at the very least. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC) My original comment was restored by The Devil's Advocate (with the link to the video redacted).[7] Just thought I should mention that for reasons of disclosure. I'm sorry if I offended anyone; looking back on it now, this post was probably ill-advised. Kurtis (talk) 21:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC) For what its worth I've archived it. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC) If you're just a user you should never be cutting away other people's comments, even people higher up the food chain should be cautious with this, the only person that can just cut away a comment is the user that posted it. HalfHat 21:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC) All editors are urged to remove content that might violate WP:BLP even if it's a talk page comment.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Okay never was too strong. But BLP applies to almost none of that, cutting all that away to a sentence that looked like it's only purpose was to take a dig was out of order. HalfHat 22:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Kurtis, I think I understand what you're getting at. From my perspective, here is the issue. There is no way to put this delicately, so I'll just say it. Gamergate is demonstrably a fringe POV. While their supporters are very vocal on a few Internet social media forums (most of them entirely anonymous) their actual numbers are small and their claims have garnered no mainstream credibility — to the contrary, in mainstream sources their claims have either been widely refuted or widely dismissed as nothingburgers. The weight of mainstream reliable sources is simply indisputable at this point, and so many Gamergate supporters have retreated into a conspiracy-theory realm where all sources are biased against them, except for those which agree with them. (A self-fulfilling prophecy.) I am neither a "gamer" nor a "social justice warrior" — I first took interest in this issue when the community was made aware on a noticeboard that Wikipedia pages were being used to spread unfounded claims about living people and, as became obvious, further a campaign of vile harassment against them. Rather than acknowledge the movement's foundation in specious slut-shaming trolling, Gamergate is now attempting to whitewash the past and portray itself as a noble crusade for "journalism ethics," despite the fact that reliable sources all but universally view it as a purveyor of misogynistic harassment and retrograde culture warring. It is difficult to collaborate to build an article when there is insistence on portraying a group not as the overwhelming weight of reliable sources portray it, but as it wishes to be portrayed for public relations purposes. This we simply cannot do. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2014 (UTC) I was initially anti-gamergate, then after digging for stuff myself, I'm very skeptical of the claims. Also I started using adblock again. I'm a skeptic, and there's something massively wrong about all this. In before "the misogyny". On a personal note, if anything, I should be pro-gg, since they don't reduce my condition(s) to some fashion statement on tumblr. --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:16, 13 November 2014 (UTC) What annoys people like me is the gross-generalisation of everyone in the movement. I know that a lot of harassment has happened but it is annoying when everyone in the movement is labeled (or implied) as a woman-hater when it can be seen that quite a few people on the other side are misandrist and the media ignores that. Retartist (talk) 22:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC) Your "personal annoyance" is COMPLETELY irrelevant. You need to toss it out the window and start editing from Wikikpedia policies WP:UNDUE and the WP:RS sources. Period. END OF STORY. If you keep tendentiously editing based upon your "personal annoyances" rather than the sources, you will be banned from the subject or the site. The choice is yours - shape up or you WILL get shipped out. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC) It’s not clear that DSA510 's, or anyone's, personal beliefs or inclinations or skepticism or afflictions is pertinent here. We're discussing the improvement of an encyclopedia article, based on reliable source. NorthBySouthBaranof's summary, on the other hand, nicely explains the problem: It is difficult to collaborate to build an article when there is insistence on portraying a group not as the overwhelming weight of reliable sources portray it, but as it wishes to be portrayed for public relations purposes. But this is precisely the torque that is being repeatedly applied here. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC) At present, the article's introduction starts with a conclusion about the nature of an ongoing event. The article then goes on to search for proof of this conclusion. If this were an academic paper, it would be failed. The intro should really start with the questions and run down a quick discussion of the key elements of the debate. Not the key conclusions of the debate. The key events and people, with info about why the reader should even care. The first sentence opens up and it declares Gamergate is misogynist. Like it's just open and close - we've got this statement about the group's morals before there's even any evidence to support the conclusion. People aren't frustrated with this article for PR reasons exclusively. It's also because the article is very badly written and it's unpleasant to read. YellowSandals (talk) 07:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC) There isn't a "question" here, though. The conclusion is drawn from the reliable sources, and the reliable sources are virtually unanimous in describing the key point of this controversy being misogynistic harassment of women in video gaming. The front page of The New York Times, The Colbert Report, NPR, PBS NewsHour, on and on and on and on... the focus of those sources is the misogynistic harassment, with "journalism ethics" receiving little more than a throwaway mention that Gamergate supporters claim it as a justification. I know Gamergate supporters think all of those reliable sources are biased and conspiring against them and so forth... but Wikipedia does not traffic in such theories. Our articles are weighted with the mainstream POV predominating, and the all-but-unchallenged mainstream view of the key points of the Gamergate controversy is as this article describes. That Gamergate supporters disagree with these mainstream sources' portrayal of the issue is of no consequence. We can, should and do mention the POV of Gamergate supporters, but at it is demonstrably a minority POV, it will not be given the prominence or credence its supporters wish it to have. If at some future point, all of those reliable sources reverse course and embrace Gamergate, then, thanks to the handy editing features, we can edit the article to reflect that change. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC) It's weighted with crap writing, unsubstantiated personal opinions several editors here hold, laughing dismissals of all outside perspective, and slanted quote farming. The article is basically just an anti-GG echo with very little real substance in it. Take the final paragraph of the intro even. It doesn't mention misogyny, but it states, in factual manner, that Gamergate is mad because games are closer to art now. This in spite of the fact that discussion about games as art has been going on for maybe a decade or longer, with notable commentary from Roger Ebert, and hardcore fans are not explicitly against the perception of games as art. Why does the article say that? I'm pretty sure it's because the article lacks all sense and perspective, and it has basically no idea what in the heck it's talking about. The article is stupid because it contains all these convenient explanations and theories on human behavior. As though you could just look at people and say, "Yeah, this is the reason everybody does things". It's one of the biggest earmarks of ideological writing, since an ideology often believes it can classify people by assigning absolute good and evil as motivations. It seems like many editors here just kind of vaguely heard about Gamergate but don't really understand how the conflict came to develop, and they don't want to know. The conflict is "because mah soggy knees", and Wikipedia needs to tell everyone that, oh yes, all THESE people are misogynists. We done figured it out. Jury is in. Everybody do the ridicule. YellowSandals (talk) 16:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC) In the sense of the saying "better to light a candle than curse the darkness", I'd like to cordially invite you to join the discussion of specific ways to improve the article within Wikipedia's content policies. Strictly speaking, just saying the article is all wrong because some of the editors are bad people with wrong opinions and no willingness to listen to alternative interpretations is a conduct issue and should be taken to appropriate venues already set up on the wiki. --TS 18:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC) Consider writing a factual account of the controversy, the events in it, and how it relates to the reader. As opposed to a useless, lengthy, ideological piece full of purple prose about misogyny. I didn't say anyone's opinions were wrong. I said the writing is ideological, substandard, poorly organized, and all around just kind of deconstructive. YellowSandals (talk) 18:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC) In fact, if this article wasted less time talking about misogyny and instead just discussed some of the events without embellishment or quote farming, you could probably shorten this to a few sections no longer than a couple paragraphs each. As opposed to five paragraphs about the "false allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment", then another five paragraphs go on to explain not only extra people who were harassed, but people who weren't harassed (because some of the people not harassed are men, which PROVES "muh soggy knees"). Then we have three paragraphs about how the media doesn't like Gamergate. You could easily rename the header to "Online Harassment and Media Response" and probably shorten most of that to five paragraphs that just establish harassment and the response to it. Then we have eight paragraphs that briefly touch on some things Gamergate complains about, only to extensively rebuke them by quoting as many negative opinions on it as possible. Calling it all "conspiracy theories" and so forth. Reading through that section, I'm really not sure what any of you think Gamergate's motives are except "muh soggy knees". Eight paragraphs to that section, and it's still completely unclear why Gamergate has happened. You could shorten the ethics concerns down to like a paragraph, and we have a few sources discussing where some of Gamergate's anger likely stems from. In the GameJournoPros section we have a full paragraph dedicated to numerous perspectives on the mailing list, virtually none of which are substantial or important to the reader. That's only half way through the article. Need I go on, or do you think it's most prudent to continue in the fashion the article is going? This ideological tripe is nothing but frustration and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. This is blog nonsense. It's not informative. YellowSandals (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC) My sole action on this discussion was to remove yet another dumb off-topic attempt to drag this article talk page, which is about Gamergate, back to a spurious attack on one of Gamergate's chosen victims. The poster provided no actionable problems, but did introduce severely problematic material. This material has been restored. It should be removed again and never restored. It is a gratuitous personal attack and has no place on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a forum. Wikipedia has a policy forbidding personal attacks on living people. --TS 01:12, 14 November 2014 (UTC) I don't see any stop at attacking Milo or Sommers reputations subtly. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:07, 14 November 2014 (UTC) "It is a gratuitous personal attack". TS, that is subjective opinion of yours and I disagree with it. It is great that you have such opinions but please don't delete text of others. Please be objective. I'm not sure that the judgemental terminology is helpful. IMO unfortunately this talk page is now a chat forum because the article is crippled, the contributors deadlocked, and new contributors get a frosty reception (eg. Kurtis and TRPoD interaction above).Jgm74 (talk) 07:46, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Blizzard entertainment stance on Gamergate

Mike Morhaime full quote at BlizzCon is "Over the past couple of months, there has been a small group of people doing awful things,"They're tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right.", therefore the claims that he especially denounced GamerGate are false and therefore be changed to mention that.(per Wikipedia:Synthesis) Avono (talk) 17:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc: It was Geoff Keighley who asked at the Direct Tv stage if Gamergate was responsible,he did not return any clear answer Avono (talk) 17:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

He never specifically mentioned Gamergate so you would need a source that interprets it that way and we would note that as the opinion of that author. Assuming he is talking about Gamergate here is WP:OR. Muscat Hoe (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

for reference the specific request is to change "co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced GamerGate at BlizzCon 2014" to "co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced the ongoing harassment at BlizzCon 2014" Avono (talk) 20:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The media has made the attribution to GG, so we do need to be careful. The current text is Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced GamerGate at BlizzCon 2014, saying that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another., I would suggest Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced the ongoing harassment at BlizzCon 2014, saying that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another. (change in bold) This does not name GG, keeps the implication in the sources (even if obvious), but still reflects properly on the quote. --MASEM (t) 17:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The sources cited all say it was in reference to Gamergate. Morhaime himself confirmed he was speaking about Gamergate. As a final note, the DirecTV stage with Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name. [8]. WP:SYN is not involved. — Strongjam (talk) 17:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

the specific faction was not named. --DSA510 Pls No H8 17:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

to be specific, he might be talking about it as a whole, harassment from both sides, as Gawker valiantly proclaims to be false, since 20k+ white males are doing it purely for "misogyny". wheras the media "RS" says that there is only harrasment coming from the pro-gamergate side. --DSA510 Pls No H8 17:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Postaddendumaddendum: The validity of that article is being disputed in the comments section. Someone get a copy of the actual event rather than some 3'd party's biased version. --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. Comments on an article aren't RS. Also, even if we remove that source there's still MCV saying Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters and urge people to redouble their efforts in trying to promote a friendlier, more welcoming gaming environment.. — Strongjam (talk) 18:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

however that is Ben Parfitt's interpretation, no where in that source is it claimed that Morhaime mentioned GamerGate Avono (talk) 18:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

No, this request should be denied, as Morhaime was indeed speaking directly about Gamergaters. If we need to add the additional specificity from the joystiq link above, then that is fine. Tarc (talk) 17:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Prove that Morhaime was speaking directly about Gamergate (and I mean, use HIS words, not what others INTERPRET). Omegastar (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

We follow WP:RS here. Us proving anything would be WP:OR. — Strongjam (talk) 18:14, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

This is either a case of incorrect information (from joystiq), or an attempt at smearing (yet again). Wouldn't the actual conference/convention/powwow be a better source? --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

thus the joystiq claim cannot be used unless a secondary source is found that Independently states the same thing.Avono (talk) 18:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Then we can at least agree that Morhaime has only "denounced the ongoing harassment" and not anything specific. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

That is the aim of this request, to only state what was said by Morhaime without third party interpretations.Avono (talk) 22:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Consider this is in the section about the "Industry response" which is after the section outlining the established harassment towards Quinn/Sarkeesian/Wu, and the reports of harassment the other way. In context of his actual speech, and not the clarification afterwards, it makes sense to point out the "ongoing harassment" (per my suggestion above), which in no way weakens the importance of his statement at that venue. Even if he knew and stated later he was speaking to the harassment attributed to GG, saying "the ongoing harassment" is just as true a statement. --MASEM (t) 18:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I propose Masem suggestion to be used until the information from joystiq can be backed up Avono (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's very clear that he was referring to GamerGate, as per the sources covering the event. Oppose. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Does it matter if he was speaking to harassment under the GG banner, or harassment that has been going on in general? --MASEM (t) 18:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, actually it does, for reasons that should be intensely obvious at this point. Stop trying to create a two-sided issue where the reliable sources are all-but-unanimously on one side. This wasn't on the front page of The New York Times for no reason. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a major difference if he was condemning the harassment, in general (which most everyone, including GG supporters, would likely agree with), and if he was condemning specifically the Gamergate movement, which add yet more weight to the article. The latter is a much more charged statement that we cannot say in a WP voice, and so we have to verify if this is truly what he said in the sources. If he actually said "GG" during the speech, I would not have an issue at all; it might add more imbalance but its impossible to get away from since we'd have it sourced as such. But the analysis below is clear that we're resting the validity of the statement (that he was talking about on the non-verbal nod to a question asked by Kingsley. That is a huge WP:SNYTH problem considering the change in POV of the statement and the balance of the article. --MASEM (t) 23:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The cite sources have made the connection:

• BlizzCon’s opening ceremony started with a bang this morning, as Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate [9]
• Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters [10]
• Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name. [11]

No WP:SYNTH is involved. — Strongjam (talk) 00:00, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes it is, if we are saying it in WP's voice; if we say that the speech was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources, that would be fine but clunnky. But we cannot say he was talking about it when we can clearly tell from the direct primary sources that the only thing that connected his speech directly to the "condemning of Gamergaters" (and not to the harassment resulting from the situation) was a nod in reply to a question, and the question not being specific as to which part of his speech. --MASEM (t) 00:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

"if we say that the speech was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources, that would be fine but clunnky." We don't know that though. The sources don't say they believe he meant Gamergaters based on the speech. They could have gotten clarification from Blizzard. In the end we have to trust WP:RS and not do our own research. — Strongjam (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Why can we just cite the speech in general and then in the next sentence state that it "was believed to be about Gamergaters by some sources?" --Super Goku V (talk) 00:37, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

We could, and that would at least avoid the OR, but then that also begs adding one more bit of weighted coverage to the article. There's zero issues with saying what he actually said in his speech (which, "last few months" make it clear its surrounding GG events, no SYNTH there) in a section called "Industry response" that follows from the harassment aspects. --MASEM (t) 00:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I've just about lost interest in the health of this article. From top to bottom it's a wash. However, I did want to point out that Blizzard's PR team constructed a pretty careful statement that condemned harassment without specifically implicating anyone. In fact, most figures that have come out of this with clean hands have been places that aren't attacking anyone, like Escapist Magazine who allowed discussion to continue on forums while they made certain nothing got out of hand. Twisting what a rep for Blizzard said about a movement - especially an ideologically heated controversy with people in it who don't care about other humans - is not only damaging to the reputation of that rep, but also to Blizzard itself. Any editor here looking to victimize people or groups they disagree with should take some serious reflection on their own morals. I know this advice falls on deaf ears. But do consider: Blizzard constructed their very neutral statement for a reason, and Wikipedia should not be going out of their way to twist that neutrality into a statement of support for one side or another of some vitriolic, misanthropic, attack-oriented ideology. YellowSandals (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Considering Gawker is a reliable source now, it seems the standards of Wikipedia are falling greatly. Thank god gawker doesn't talk about KDE/Ubuntu/FOSS (hopefully). --DSA510 Pls No H8 18:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what this has to do with this request. None of the sources for this statement are owned by Gawker Media. — Strongjam (talk) 19:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I am giving an example of the standards of wikipedia in recent light. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There has only been one group engaging in harassment and tarnishing the reputation of gaming over the past couple of months. Reliable sources are perfectly capable of checking with Blizzard to make sure Mike Morhaime meant what it sounded like, and conversely he could easily put out a press release explaining that he really meant the Jehovah's Witnesses or whatever. This is why we use reliable sources. --TS 18:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

No, that's not true. We have sources (one from Salon/Aurdbach) that says that the GG moderate are fishing out trolling using the GG hashtag to stir the pot, and there's the harassment by unknowns towards proGG supporters. So it's not proper to say the harassment is only coming from GG supporters; at best we can say it is primarily coming from those using the GG banner/hashtag. Now, whether Morhaime was aware of that or not, we can't be sure, but we can be certain he was talking about harassment in general (per his exact quote), and that's still fine to leave it at that for the "Industry response" section (Even the ESA's statement didn't mention GG by name but referred to harassment). --MASEM (t) 19:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Considering the definition of "Reliable Source" has been reduced to muckraking web tabloids run by supporters of bullying, Gawker Media, I'm not so sure the "Reliable Sources" should get the free reign they once had, I.E. everything should be verified thoroughly. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Come off it, Masem. The vast majority of reliable sources discuss the threats as coming from Gamergate supporters essentially exclusively. We're aware of Auerbach's POV at this point and his viewpoint is interesting, but it is not the predominant one in reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I still fail to see how gawker is reliable for anything. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You're wilfully ignoring information I've provided in the past. You can look through the archives for sources on harassment of Gamergate supporters. Here's the newest one, which I've linked to before, which is still not in the article, I'll note.

Oh, here's an SJW endorsing the gas chamber for Gamergate supporters, among other lunacy. Social justice is great! Willhesucceed (talk) 20:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Willhesucceed: can you please stay focused on reliable sources and article content? Thanks-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I am. It's allowable for his opinion, and Digitimes is perfectly reliable. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Get out of the brambles of the debate for a second. There are two groups slandering gaming right now and they're both extremist elements. There are the people trying to publicize the sexual fetishes of Gamergate supporters in the hopes that it will smear them. There are people sending threats, syringes, or whatever to Gamergate supporters. Then we've got people sending threats and airing out the sexual history of the Social Justice set on the other end. The Social Justice has declared all "gamers" dead, and they call gaming misogynistic. Meanwhile, other people are sending death threats, presumably in support of "gamers". All the while we've these political figures stepping in, and they have nothing to do with gaming. Now you tell me - who's tarnishing gaming? The people saying it's dead? The people harassing others for gaming? The people saying that gamers are misogynistic?

You see how Blizzards statement can go any direction. They condemned the harassment. It's a careful PR statement, and you are supposed to be able to interpret it either way. Nobody supports the harassment. Nobody in their right minds anyway. That's what Blizzard came out against. If they wanted to condemn Gamergate directly, that's what they would have done, but apparently they don't want to bait additional controversy, and Wikipedia should not be doing it for them. Do not spend so much energy attacking people that you bring misery and harassment to people who want to focus on the specific problems and not on a group with people they've never met or spoken to. YellowSandals (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yellow Sandals puts it the best. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Shorter YellowSandels: “Both sides have always been at war with EastAsia.” I’ve seen no credible evidence that Sarkesian, Quinn, Wu, or their supporters have threatened to murder or rape anyone, only that some interested parties claim to have received anonymous parcels. There is no question at all that Quinn was smeared, Sarkisian threatened with murder, and Wu threatened with both murder, rape, and assault; a police investigation into the latter is ongoing. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, knock it off. This very Wikipedia article has been a party to the harassment and you know it. It has struggled with numerous BLP violations, including but not limited to criticizing whether or not it's appropriate for certain forum moderators to like BDSM. The article begins with a derogatory conclusion about people, and then spends its duration trying to prove the conclusion. Innocence is not granted by the virtue of rhetoric when the actions speak for themselves. This much is apparent, and something consistently reiterated by several editors here who are on the war path. Many editors are here to attack and hurt people, and they are as wrong as anyone who has set out to attack and hurt people in this controversy. YellowSandals (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Is the post by YellowSandals immediately above fully consistent with the General Sanctions in place on this topic? MarkBernstein (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

we have Wikipedia:General sanctions/Gamergate/Requests for enforcement to discuss editor conduct and sanctions, which is probably where both YS's and MB's comments belong.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, MB instigated it. --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If you have a user conduct issue, take it to the appropriate boards - DO NOT USE THIS PAGE TO WHINE OR CAST ASPERSIONS. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:18, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You're really being quite nasty over very little, chill out man there's no need for that. HalfHat 21:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Quote what Morhaime actually said, and then note that it was interpreted as targeting Gamergate by Geoff Keighley et al. We've already gotten in trouble for mangling sources above, let's not do it again. - hahnchen 19:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• • It's not "mangling sources" to note, as several sources do, that Morhaime confirmed it with a non-verbal, but obvious, gesture in that interview. If Blizzard puts out a statement saying they weren't talking about Gamergate, we can fix it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:46, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Waiting for someone to complain is a poor way of writing an article, it's pretty much what I said not to do. I don't doubt that he was talking about Gamergate, but there are plenty of sources (such as the gamergate-maligned Kotaku & Polygon) who note that Morhaime did not mention Gamergate explicitly. So it is an interpretation, even if widely held. - hahnchen 20:21, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
      • Apples and oranges, Hahnchen. The issue re: Auerbach was a misinterpretation of a source in paraphrase. Here, we cite multiple reliable sources reaching a conclusion based on their observations. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
        • I've said quote Morhaime, and then explicitly cite those conclusions. Do you have a problem with that? - hahnchen 22:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
          • No, I don't. Sounds fine, thanks. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:00, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
    • That's original research. Willhesucceed (talk) 20:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
      • I don't think you understand what "original research" is. It is not "original research" to cite reliable sources which synthesize a conclusion. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
        • Are Gawker links still being called "Reliable"? --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:RSN is a better place for that question. Also noted earlier Gawker is not involved in this issue section, I see no Gawker sites being cited for this claim. — Strongjam (talk) 20:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Gawker is shorthand for Kotaku since Kotaku is a part of the Gawker network. Anyways, couldn't we just quote the section that is relevant instead of putting it on one side or the other? --Super Goku V (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Before I go on, I’d like to take a moment to talk about something serious. Over the past couple of months, there’s been a small group of people who have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people’s lives miserable and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It’s not right. Blizzcon is a great example of how positive and uplifting gaming can be. Let’s carry the good vibes from this weekend out into the world all year round. There is another person on the other end of a chat screen, they are our friends, our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters. Let’s take a stand to reject hate and harassment, and let’s redouble our efforts to be kind and respectful to one another and let’s remind the world what the gaming community is really all about.

— CEO of Blizzard, Mike Morhaime

Why is this still being discussed? Morhaime made a statement condemning Gamergaters, later confirmed that it was the Gamergaters he was condemning, and this s who all reliable sources describe the matter. This is not even a point of contention. Tarc (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Because RS isn't so R. Skepticism is not a sin. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Didn't he clarify that he was indeed talking about Gamergate and all of this is just complaining that his original statement did not explicitly refer to Gamergate and therefore his clarification should not be used to corroborate his original statement out of some major form of pedantry?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I think there's some controversy about whether he confirmed or not. The Joystiq report says he did, some internet commentators say that he didn't. Until we have a WP:RS that says otherwise I see no reason to call the Joystiq report inaccurate. — Strongjam (talk) 21:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

UNTIL there is either confirmation buy MULTIPLE sources (reliable as in the general definition, not Gawker) that, yes, he said that, I don't think it should be used. Similar should go to all the citations on the page. --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

"11:52AM As a final note, the DirecTV stage with Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name.' is the end of the story. Tarc (talk) 22:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's well sourced. All of these are WP:RS and non-Gawker as requested:

• BlizzCon’s opening ceremony started with a bang this morning, as Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate [12]
• Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters [13]
• Mike Morhaime as a guest confirms he was speaking out against GamerGate during the introductions of the opening ceremony. The group is mentioned by name. [14]

— Strongjam (talk) 22:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I've just seen the clips. He doesn't stop or correct Keighley (because I think he's correct), but he doesn't confirm it either. Even the sources that Gamergate hates (Kotaku & Polygon) do not explicitly say (as Wikipedia currently does) that Morhaime denounced Gamergate. - hahnchen 22:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Then you would have seen the, how shall we put it, respectful nod and smile from Morhaime at Keighley's statement. Non-verbal communication is a thing, and we helpfully have a number of reliable sources making the connection so that it is not WP:SYNTH in any way, shape or form. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

People nod in everyday conversation. We have a number of reliable sources that state Morhaime did not address Gamergate by name, so any connection is an interpretation. Nothing wrong with stating that. - hahnchen 22:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, since I have not seen the video cited, here is a recording of it at the least. At ten seconds in, we can first see the panel with Morhaime at Keighley. At twenty, Keighley is almost done with the intro to the panel as Morhaime is grinning/smiling. At twenty-nine seconds in, Keighley uses the word "Gamergate" in his speech. By thirty-three seconds in, Morhaime facial expression becomes closer to neutral, though not a Blank expression. At thirty-five, Morhaime is nodding as Keighley has mentioned Morhaime being "one of the first execs in the Gaming Industry to address that head on. At thirty-eight, the camera shot changes from a distance shot to Morhaime head-on. The discussion continues on to a different subject and at fifty-one second, Morhaime first speaks. Is that enough to make or break a connection? --Super Goku V (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

First one is assuming that he was talking about one side or the other. Second one has the same fallacy. Joystiq's one is still unconfirmed. Again, there is no proof he was talking about one side in particular, but rather condemning all harassment, from both sides... or whatever number of sides there is now. --DSA510 Pls No H8 22:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The only notable harassment...harassment characterized as misogynists, to boot...has come by gamergaters against women in the gaming culture, as evidenced by the reliable sources in the article. The smattering of blowback is I believe documented in the article as well (would have to review), but it is isolated and minor...again, as evidenced by reliable sources. As the Blizzard speech has been characterized and interpreted by reliable sources as targeting Gamergaters specifically, that is what this article should follow. At any rate, this is certainly not something that would ever been changed/edited through full protection by an admin, sao it is best to let this edit request drop, as it simply isn't going to happen. Tarc (talk) 22:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

It's only because your No True Scotsman BS. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

So the fact that he called out a small element of the gaming community, and then praised the gaming community as a whole, you're going to cherry pick that and say he call out out gamers? Really? Come one. It stands the opening sentence on it's head. --DHeyward (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

He didn't "call out gamers," he called out GamerGate, which is by any measure, a tiny minority of the gaming community as a whole. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

20K+ doesn't seem small. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Hayward, I specifically said "Gamergaters", not "gamers" in a general sense. Tarc (talk) 23:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

"Those that did the notable harassment" are not all "Gamergaters" (specifically, those that support Gamergate as an ethics bit), it is only by people using the #gamergate tag, which there is RS-sourcable evidence that are trolls out there that are subverting things. This is not to say "no" Gamergater is innocent of being involved in the harassment, but that not all harassers are Gamergaters. --MASEM (t) 23:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

You specifically said "Gamergaters" while Morhaime did not. Can't we just say that he said to "reject hate and harassment" and state that publications took the statement as him calling out Gamergate? --Super Goku V (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that the harassment is from a small group using the #gamergate tag out of a larger #gamergate group. #gamergate itself is a small groupr of gamers. Our article is not so finely tuned to identify the difference and the ignorance of that is the articles opening sentence where misogyny, harassment and gamers are all blended under a single, evil umbrella. If the article was accurate, it would be very clear exactly who this quote is directed at and it is not the Blizzard execs belief that "misogyny and harassment in video game culture" is widely held or believed. --DHeyward (talk) 02:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

But le ebin No True Scotsman maymay, which seems to not apply to anti-gamergate, despite someone like myself being able to make 5 twitter accounts and then dox pro-gg under the anti-gg banner, says that everyone who is pro-gamergate is a misogynist. Or something. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

And how does this relate to article content? Or are you just WP:FORUM? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:28, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

If the quote is significant enough to include, we should reflect its tone and content as accurately as possible. "Denounced harassment" is a better characterization than "denounced Gamergate", so why worry if we can find sources to support the latter?--Trystan (talk) 00:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Well said. We get more accuracy by including the original comment here. starship.paint ~ regal 01:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The reliable sources all say the Gamergate thugs are the target. Why is this supposed to be controversial? If nearly every press outlet got the facts wrong, couldn't he just tell them all off with a single press release? No, obviously in the middle of Gamergate he was obviously referring to Gamergate (and not some add yet unnoticed episode of intimidation involving gaming Quakers). So yeah, no wriggle room. Drop the stick and step away from the corpse. --TS 01:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tony Sidaway:Was that directed at me? Because that was my second contribution to this talk page, and the first on this topic. I wouldn't contest that he was referring to Gamergate, only that "condemning harassment" is more reflective of the statement that he chose to make.--Trystan (talk) 01:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I have set |answered=yes in the edit request. There is obviously not consensus here for this edit, so using an edit protected request template was premature, and even if people here agreed to do so we are obviously not going to make an edit that contradicts what all the reliable sources say about this. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:31, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Then, why can't we just state what he said with a citation? Masem has suggested that we could make a new section called "Industry response" in response to one of my earlier suggestion. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The RS here are all gaming outlets for the most part (I can't find a mainstream source), so they are going to have more bias here because for the most part, no RS gaming source has any reason to give GG the time of day (understandably, since GG is attacking their integrity). Take sources that are less biased by their nature like CNet Venture Beat or the Verge and they all clearly establish he's talking about GamerGate, but not accusing Gamergaters. This is a core thing for us as neutral WP editors to recognize when there is a natural bias in the press that we can verify. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

From Masem's Verge link above: Blizzard CEO says harassment is tarnishing gaming's reputation ... Morhaime didn't condemn Gamergate or its members, but he's clearly talking about problems that have been going on since the movement gained steam over two months ago. Reliable source, hmm? starship.paint ~ regal 01:45, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Was he or was he not spoken to later and did he or did he not say he was explicitly talking about Gamergate?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

He was spoken to later and he did not explicitly state that he was talking about Gamergate. If you are refering to the Keighley issue, I have already asked my question above. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't believe I still have to say this. Drop the stick. --TS 02:35, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Just quote Morhaime, say his words were largely interpreted as referring to Gamergate. This is what most sources say anyway. I don't see how this is even contentious. - hahnchen 02:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Works for me. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. We're just saying the same things over and over. We need to get back to the idea above of article pruning mentioned above, the idea of replacing existing and possibly weak gamer industry sources with stronger ones, as long as the underlying point isn't altered. Tarc (talk) 02:58, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I would write "Some assume he was referring to GamerGate, though it is not known whether it is GamerGate as a whole, or one side or the other." That way, everybody wins/loses. --DSA510 Pls No H8 04:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That would be incorrect; as reliable sources have characterized it as referring to Gamergaters, our article will reflect that. My last statement on this tangent. Tarc (talk) 04:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

There are alternative ways to render it, but I will take my point below. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed rewording

At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime said that "a small group of people have been doing really awful things. They have been making some people's lives miserable, and they are tarnishing our reputation as gamers. It's not right." He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another". His statements have been largely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate. starship.paint ~ regal 04:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC) tagging people advocating for change... Hahnchen, NorthBySouthBaranof, Muscat Hoe, Avono, Masem, Super Goku V, DungeonSiegeAddict510, Trystan ... sorry if I missed you

Looks good to me, although I'd tweak the last line to add some attribution, "His statements have been widely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That's even better, yes. starship.paint ~ regal 04:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Fair, but keep it that way. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:19, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The notification system forgot to message me it seems. In any case, I would agree that this is better. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I would be comfortable with that as-well Avono (talk) 10:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

"A referral", I believe, is the translation of a legal case to a different court. The word we want if "a reference to GamerGate" MarkBernstein (talk) 12:21, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Referring would be better which is what was suggested in the first place.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:46, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we could (and should) stop using the phrase "in the media", as if it were some entity with an opinion. Here and in many other statements related to the topic of this article we can just say, for instance, "widely interpreted". Remember that, in an article like this at its current status, all of our facts come directly from media reports, so referring to the media as a third party is tiresome and unnecessary. We shouldn't make the media the topic of the entire article like this. --TS 12:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

You're right. The whole point of this is that the movement itself won't acknowledge that he was talking about them when everyone else is going "yep, he means Gamergate".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:57, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Disagree with TS. The (gaming) media is an involved party in this situation, therefore it's important to mention them. In fact, all four of the sources we cite for the BlizzCon stuff have to do with gaming or at worst, computer technology. In addition, I believe that other reliable sources like papers will turn up in the future. "At least one paper written about Gamergate is already undergoing the peer review process... And Ryulong... you can't speak for everyone. starship.paint ~ regal 13:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Alter the last line to simply "His statements have been widely interpreted in the media as referring to GamerGate". Tarc (talk) 13:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Done. starship.paint ~ regal 13:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I meant to chop off "in the media" per TS's suggestion above, but was distracted. We already know we're talking about the media. Tarc (talk) 14:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I have to admit your original wording was rather confusing!

I think starship is getting a bit too deeply into an "us versus them" situation. If we didn't think we could trust the press we wouldn't write the article because we'd have no reliable sources. My comment is applicable throughout the article, not just here. We should stop talking about our sources as if they were active entities involved in some dispute, except where this is the case. And if they are involved, we should not really be using them as a source except for recording their opinion. In this case, though, we've got near unanimous interpretation by sources known to check their facts.

Furious attempts are being made, by actual involved parties, to spin this away from Morhaime's actual target and pretend he was talking about, I don't know, maybe the Trilateral Commission or something. We oughtn't to stand for that kind of nonsense. We report according to the reliable sources, and those sources are clear that he was talking about Gamergate. --TS 14:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Not opposed to this, but I think we can do without all the quoting. The article is already a WP:QUOTEFARM and has length issues. I'd suggest something like this instead.

• At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced recent harassment from a small group. He called on attendees to oppose hate and harassment and to "be kind and respect one another". His statements have been widely interpreted as referring to GamerGate. — Strongjam (talk) 14:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Suits me. --TS 14:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I would change the last bit to "referring to fallout from GamerGate." --DHeyward (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I oppose that, as per the reliable sources. "But this year, in the first few minutes of his time on stage, Morhaime wanted to address GamerGate..." "Blizzard Entertainment president Mike Morhaime spent the first part of his speech denouncing GamerGate" "Mike Morhaime dedicated a part of his Blizzcon 2014 opening ceremony speech to slam GamerGaters" "Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime addressed GamerGate" etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I haven't seen any RS say it was about the fallout, just that either it was about Gamergate or assumed to be about Gamergate. — Strongjam (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Per reliable sources, the relationship to gamergate is pure SYNTH. [15]. "He didn't identify it as the Gamergate saga and everything that has happened around it, but come on: we all know what he was talking about, right?". Gamergate should not identified as what he denounced since he didn't denounce it. He denounced harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 21:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

SYNTH prohibits only original research by synthesis — that is, conclusions not reached by reliable sources. SYNTH is expressly permitted when it is the conclusion of multiple reliable sources, as it is here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Then we can use that quote from kotaku to highlight that he didn't identify Gamergate and that the "wide interpretation" is pure speculation by the media. Or we can carve out what is much more widely accepted is that he condemned harassment that escalated during gamergate. There are many reliable sources that that quote him without tying it to gamergate and it's not like he couldn't have said "gamergate" if he meant "gamergate." Nor do I think he was saying harassment before gamergate was okay. It's myopic and self-serving to tie it so closely to gamergate when it's readily apparent that he didn't do anything of the sort. --DHeyward (talk) 22:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, he defends the gaming community "Let's redouble our efforts to be kind and respectful to one another. And let's remind the world what the gaming community is really all about.". That separates the gaming community from the harassers much more than the WP article does. --DHeyward (talk) 21:28, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The proposed change only states that it was interpreted to be about Gamergate, which is exactly what the sources state, so I don't see the WP:SYNTH problem. Not sure why you're concerned about painting with a broad brush, the proposed change says harassment from a small group. — Strongjam (talk) 21:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure, fair point. At BlizzCon 2014, Blizzard Entertainment president and co-founder Mike Morhaime denounced recent harassment issues in the industry, blaming "a small group of people [who] have been doing really awful things" and "tarnishing our reputation" as gamers. He called on attendees to treat each other with kindness and demonstrate to the world that the community rejects harassment. His statements have been widely interpreted as referring to GamerGate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Fine with me. I've added to the draft page with small tweak. I dropped issues in the industry. Seemed unnecessary to me. Also, style question, should we be more consistent on how we capitalize GamerGate? Article title is Gamergate, but we usually spell it GamerGate. — Strongjam (talk) 21:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

No idea why some people spell it camel case. Most "gates" are spelled following Watergate as an example (yes, I know about the Watergate Hotel). Sometimes the second G is capitalised. It's redundant and we can safely ignore this as a typographical quirk. --TS 21:52, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Intel returns to Gamasutra, now with a source

The Mary Sue ain't The New York Times, but it's a (weak) RS, as previously discussed and used on this page, and we ought to update our section on Intel pulling ads with a notation that they began a new campaign on Gamasutra in November 2014. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamasutra confirmed it via a tweet, for what it's worth. Jgm74 (talk) 07:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't help noticing that the article's coverage of the Intel incident is rather larger than I expected. It seems larger than is reasonable, to be honest. I'd expect two or three sentences ending "Intel apologised for giving the perception of taking sides, also renewing its commitment to diversity, and later ran other paid advertising campaigns on Gamasutra."

We probably don't need a blow-by-blow commentary of what various chatterboxes had to say about it. The opinions of Johnson, McCormick, Kain etc aren't needed here. This was a straightforward letter-writing campaign that had a temporary effect. Let's try to stop using this article as a gazetteer of pundits. --TS 13:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed — especially given the relatively-short duration, I think we can, in hindsight, view a lot of that as recentism. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we should drop everything after ... The New York Times believed it was in response to this campaign, specifically on the aforementioned article by Alexander. And add a sentence saying that in November 2014 Intel started a new paid campaign on Gamasutra citing The Mary Sue link above. The last paragraph I think can just be cut. — Strongjam (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

It is not a renewed campaign, a bit of f12ing would show that. --DSA510 Pls No H8 15:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

A look at the article would say it is a paid campaign. Not sure how looking at the HTML source would prove otherwise, or how we could work that into the article without violating WP:OR. — Strongjam (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the specific term, but its not a campaign on GS, per se, but on AdSense. I'm not sure how to word this, but they aren't specifically going for GS, if you can understand what I'm trying to say. --DSA510 Pls No H8 16:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The article and the primary source, Gamasutra's twitter, say it's paid campaign. I'm not getting any Intel ad's when I view the site (getting targeted AdSense ads for AWS). It's possible there is a paid ad campaign and users are also seeing targeted advertisements through AdSense. — Strongjam (talk) 16:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Especially since Google added an option to deliver direct campaigns through AdSense back in January. - MrOllie (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

We don't want to be playing guessing games with HTML code. Intel is back on Gamasutra. I've updated the draft and took the opportunity to trim the quote farm while I was at it. Someone else would have to fix the orphaned references, as my little tablet interface isn't up to it. Go and see what you think. --TS 16:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I took a crack at fixing the references. There's still an error about 'bbc_coundrey' but I must be blind because I can't see it in the source. Found it. — Strongjam (talk) 16:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm still not happy with the size of the thing, most of which is redundant quotations of multiple pundits. We're spending lots of space promoting the opinions of these professional chatterboxes when a brief summary of events would do. I'd say we overplay the opinionators because we're struggling to explain the vehemence of the response to a few articles critical of the consumer aspect of gamer culture and the violence and misogyny that regularly attend its manifestations.

We need to cover the following: conspiracy mongering about the timing and provenance of "Gamers are Over" and related articles; widespread ignorance of their actual content and the terrifying and violent context in which they appeared and about which they were written; criticism of the articles as "turning against" gamers; the letter writing campaign; responses by advertisers; responses in the advertising industry and business press.

If I've missed anything, please comment. When we've got a structure I think we'll be ready to tame that quote farm further. --TS 17:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Telegraph reporting on this now, so a better source. But agree we can cut down that section a bit, perhaps work both "advertizing target" campaigns together. --MASEM (t) 17:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That source also mentions the debate about AdSense as well and gets clarification from Intel. So that looks like a settled issue now. — Strongjam (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I was just about to post this! Masem, I'm open to suggestions (out just go ahead and edit as I did). In not sure my proposed framework is feasible, as a lot of the Gamergate rationale is too far under the radar to get reported. News reporters understand the news cycle and don't take accusations of collusion seriously where it clearly doesn't exist. This, alongside GameJournoPros, forms a lot of Gamergate's internal credo or creation myth, but it probably isn't as widely reported as the latter. I'm still working on good, strong sources for this, because without understanding this conspiracy theory about a press that attacked gamers out of the blue it's rather difficult to work out quite why Gamergate activism took the form that it did. -TS 17:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

My suggestion would be along the lines (this is a very broad stroke, there can be a few quotes injected and the like,) of "GG supporters were critical of articles that spoke of the "death of the gamer identity" such as Leigh Alexander's piece from Gamasutra. They were also taken back by comments made by Sam Biddle of the Gawker networks that called for bullying of nerds in light of the harassment. In response, the GG supporters organized separate email campaigns to target advertizers that were promoted on these sites to express their concerns as part of a "consumer revolt". "Operation Disrespectful Nod" was aimed at sites like Gamasutra that discussed the end of the gamer identity. Some advertizers did pull their ads, leading some journalists to claim their there getting involved in a larger situation without understanding the full extent. In one case, Intel did pull their ads from Gamasutra but later reinstated them, stating that they had not planned on taking a position in the larger controversy. In "Operation Baby Seal", GG supporters turned to Google and Amazon's ad services which Gawker Media cites had used to point out violations on various Gawker sites against these service's AUP/TOS. The tactic of targetting the ad providers than the advertizers themselves was considered "a whole other scale" and has the potential, if successful, to financially harm Gawker." Much of the quotes given in that otherwise are excessive or just too much detail. --MASEM (t) 18:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That reads okay to me and I love its brevity. Be bold! One thing I'd suggest adding is a brief reference to the Advertising Age report, which is more than just a chatterbox piece. --TS 19:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

It'll have to be a off-page draft (The article's fully locked down and while I can edit it as admin, that would be a major "involved" conflict.) --MASEM (t) 19:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Based on Masem's bit, but for clarity, just want to focus on the Intel issue now rather than try and get everything in one go. I agree with the overall thrust of tightening this section a lot, though.

Gamergate supporters were critical of articles that spoke of the "death of the gamer identity" such as Leigh Alexander's piece in Gamasutra. In response, supporters organized "Operation Disrespectful Nod," an e-mail campaign to advertisers demanding that they drop several involved publications. After receiving complaints from Gamergate supporters, Intel withdrew an ad campaign from Gamasutra in October. Intel's decision was widely criticized as an endorsement of the movement, leading to a corporate statement which apologized for appearing to take sides in the controversy. In mid-November, Intel began advertising on Gamasutra again, and said the site's readership was an important market for the company. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems generally fine. I'd like to see if we can cut the Gawker/Op Baby Seal section similarly to a para so that these two (both about targetting advertizing) can be treated in the same section. The DiGRA stuff is a different aspect and does need a separate section. --MASEM (t) 20:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

We should make it clear that Gamasutra's target audience is game developers, not gamers. This should have been clear from the wording of Leigh Alexander's widely misread "'Gamers' are over" article. --TS 22:20, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

While the intent is clear from the article and the fact Gamasutra is a site for devs + publishers and less for gamers, I do believe we can also source the fact the specific article was geared towards the devs/pubs. I just can't locate which source(s) were clear on that point. --MASEM (t) 02:56, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, Be bold with the working draft at Draft:Gamergate controversy. The sooner we get a trimmed account in there the sooner we can tweak it. Sometimes too much discussion makes us forget that the aim is to edit the article. --TS 21:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Instead of working on a draft with very little visibility, I recommend just pushing for unprotection so the article can be edited in the open. Not happy with the drive by full-protection when we already have sanctions in place. - hahnchen 03:30, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

As soon as there is anything that has widespread support an edit request will get it "visible". (and really, "drive by full protection" ??) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:50, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed edits to this article do not enjoy widespread support. The only thing full protection has ever done in this article is to stop improvement. Would rather admins started actually blocking people instead of punishing everyone, readers included. - hahnchen 03:59, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

@Hahnchen: I am confused as to why you think that if there is no ability to gain wide consensus via working on a draft article that there will be any chance of gaining consensus on the live article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

From experience. This article has been fully protected twice before, each time resulting in a halt of article development. - hahnchen 00:08, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

the telegraph has covered it now [16] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, we've got that one noted above, we're using that to trim down the section based on Intel's updated statement since it was a return to the status quo after all said and done. --MASEM (t) 16:26, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Techraptor reporting on this article and the talk page

Not a serious editing proposal; material not suitable for Wikipedia. WP:FORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm not familiar with this periodical myself, but the recent issues with this article have been reported on in the media. http://techraptor.net/content/wikipedia-article-concerning-gamergate-controversy-battles-controversy YellowSandals (talk) 22:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC) Techraptor is not "the media" and it is certainly not a reliable source. There is no reason to codify Georgina Young's repetition of 8chan and KotakuInAction's ad hominem attacks on me, where they pulled WT:LANG#Mass deletion of language articles by Ryulong (where Nanshu was being hyperbolic). Georgina Young is also heavily biased in her stance on Gamergate, no matter how many times she told the host of HuffPoLive she was "neutral".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC) If the editorial staff at that website think sending letters of condolence to three victims of horrific harassment is some kind of indictment, I don't think we can trust their judgement on other matters. As this discussion cannot lead to any improvement of the article content and is likely to become an attractive nuisance, I propose that we archive it. --TS 22:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC) It's not our place to make moral judgements here. HalfHat 23:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC) It's not a moral judgement, but more properly a matter of poor judgement. We're certainly not supposed to adopt an amoral or moral relativist stance in editing; Wikipedia would be a horrible read if we did so, and the BLP could not exist. My proposal, however, is based on the fact that this section contains no actionable editing proposal. Were certainly never putting this trash into the article. --TS 23:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC) Agreed. Nothing actionable here, and I have BLP concerns. BLP applies to our editors and this article isn't exactly kind to Tarc or Ryulong. — Strongjam (talk) 23:20, 14 November 2014 (UTC) If sources were excluded for showing bias you'd have to cull may of the current references. Many have argued on this page for the inclusion of articles that show bias, why would that be an issue now? Jgm74 (talk) 23:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: Remove "GamerGate is dead" sources

No reliable sources, no serious content proposal, WP:NOTFORUM

According to "RS", GamerGate has died, what, 20 times? 30? [17] Topsy Graph. The trend is, gg slows down on weekends, then picks right back up. The "GG iz ded XD" stuff from, not surprisingly The Verge (Hi Vox Media!), is easily proven false. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Can you be more specific? Do you want all articles from Vox removed or is there a particular article you think shouldn't be used? — Strongjam (talk) 19:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC) It's far too soon to have it factually called dead (stories still come), so its opinion pieces on that, and thus we should avoid including them if they are being used to call the controversy over (if they source other things, that's fine). --MASEM (t) 19:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC) We don't remove reliable sources because you disagree with their conclusions. As per the source you refer to, it does not argue that the movement is dead, rather it argues that its attempt to shield itself with "journalism ethics" is dead. Gamergate is now a stew of tautological arguments, powerless hashtags, and bruised egos. I suspect the banner and the members that rally beneath it will hold together. ... But the movement's agenda, or more clearly, the noble cover meant to conceal the movement's true agenda, is dead. Given the movement's failure to do anything meaningful in several weeks (coupled with the return of Intel to Gamasutra, undoing its one major "victory"), I hardly think pointing at a graph of Twitter activity constitutes "proof" in the manner you describe. Yes, lots of people are still tweeting about Gamergate. But they're not apparently achieving anything. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:55, 15 November 2014 (UTC) That's a bogus argument given that we're aware of this <redacted> which was posted recently - yes, no RS has yet picked up on it (and I dunno if they will, given their stance) but that is address "what are your ethical concerns, GG supporters?" - and most of those we can corroborate with other sources as being actual concerns (eg Doritosgate, Gerstmann's outster, Metacritic scores, etc.). What you cite is clearly an opinion. --MASEM (t) 19:58, 15 November 2014 (UTC) No, we can't use it. It's an anonymous post on an anonymous site which makes frankly vile attacks and is a fount of unsupported allegations about living people. We are not touching anything there with a ten-foot pole and I am redacting the link per BLP. You should know better, Masem. When and if that site becomes an issue reported on by significant reliable sources, we can address it then. But you and I both know that's not going to happen. You realize that the movement began with misogynistic attacks on Zoe Quinn, right Masem? You're carrying water for them again — retroactively citing Jeff Gerstmann and Doritosgate as justification for a vile and vicious harassment campaign that never mentioned any such thing until it wanted to cover its tracks is such a bloody obvious move it's kicking you in the face. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:00, 15 November 2014 (UTC) (ec on first point) I know we can't use it, until RS pick up on it (at which point it can be a usable primary source). But the point that "oh GG hasn't done anything to support their ethics claims, what started the whole mess" is refuted by the existance of that. Just because RS doesn't pick up on it doesn't mean it's not happening, and we have to be aware of all these ongoings and not just blind ourselves only to what the RSes are saying - we can only cite and quote RS but we have to be aware if the RS are skewing the situation from what is obviously different from reality. I disagree it is a BLP issue (they make claims that fall outside of BLP, none more harsh than some of the existing claims in the article), but I'm not going to revert that; however, if RSes do start to cite it, its use here will have to become a discussion point. --MASEM (t) 20:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Yeah, I eagerly await its in-depth discussion by major mainstream media. Hold your breath at your own risk. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC) You realize that the movement began with misogynistic attacks on Zoe Quinn. That is not factually proven true. We have no good timeline of events at the start; we know Gjoni put out his post, we know others jumped on that to raise ethics issues, and as close to simultaneously, there was the harassment at Quinn. But we have zero factual evidence to connect that the harassment was specifically tied to the "claims" of ethics - no clue if it were the same people, etc. etc.. (And this is ignoring the back-and-forth over the 4chan logs that Quinn claims to have and 4channers have denied because that's heresy evidence for all purposes). Could the ethics issues have been a "oh shit, we need to CYA with this harassment" action? Possibly. Alternatively, some people could have seen the ethics claims at Quinn and jumped at the chance to harass her. There is no clear timeline beyond the two events happening close enough in time to call them simultaneous events. So no, we absolutely not edit like the GG movement started with the attacks on Quinn. The harassment is what brought attention to it (and could be said to be the start of the GG controversy but not the start of the movement), and created the Streisand effect that probably brought more people to the proGG side, and more attention from the press. We have to be very clear on wording here to avoid imply anything that is not a clear fact in this situation. Also, the reason the GG dossier brings up Doritosgate and Gerstmann is part of the long chain of ethical concerns that have lead to consumer dissasification in the industry, so these are legit beefs if one is talking ethcis. --MASEM (t) 20:17, 15 November 2014 (UTC) The Gamergate movement demonstrably did begin with the attacks on Quinn. Yes, it is factually proven true, and that doesn't actually matter because literally every reliable source says it, which means we say it. We absolutely will edit this article in that vein. No reliable source has even begun to suggest that those two prior events had anything to do with a "movement" that coalesced around vile harassment of Zoe Quinn (and no, GG's retroactive attempt to link them on a "dossier" is not evidence). BTW, Jeff Gerstmann has repudiated Gamergate in no uncertain terms. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Can we please close this? This is a SYNTH objection to a claim that the article doesn't even make. Woodroar (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC) I'll agree (I was going to reply, but realize this is more for the inevitable arbcom case to discuss). --MASEM (t) 20:32, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Why are we in a rush to close discussion of sources and content? Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Because, as per Woodroar, we're not going to remove a source based on something it doesn't say. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Second paragraph "for the video game news site"

It says she is accused of having a relationship with x person reporter for Kokatu. Now, that can mean that he was a reporter for Kokatu, or that can mean that she had the relationship for Kokatu. It does not say which and there is no citation. I cannot suggest the following edit, because I do not know which one it is. ~ R.T.G 00:05, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's particularly confusing, but maybe it would be more clear if we change it to "The controversy began after indie game developer Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend alleged that Quinn had a romantic relationship with Nathan Greyson, a journalist for the video game news site Kotaku." Kaciemonster (talk) 00:22, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

The main article is under full protection, but meanwhile I've changed the text to Kaciemonster's suggested text at the working draft: Draft:Gamergate controversy. --TS 00:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I got an edit conflict, but I believe the concise terms might be "...a romantic relationship with a Kokatu journalist." Cheers o/ ~ R.T.G 00:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

New sources 2014-11-15

Here are some new links that have turned up in the past 24 hours on a gamergate Google News search. Some of the content may be useful. I've filtered out student newspapers, etc, as not suitable for Wikipedia

• Victims of online threats say perpetrators aren't being caught from MPRNews (NPR). 4 minute talk section with transcript. This ties Gamergate-related misogynistic harassment (particularly the specific death threat against Brianna Wu) to wider issue of the harassment of women online.
• Examining Jim Sterling's Grand Experiment To Create Video Game Journalism Utopia from Forbes contributor Paul Tassi. Discusses Jim Sterling's decision to leave The Escapist and take his flamboyant video-based games journalism to [Patreon]]'s donation-based funding model. Although courted by Gamergate as a natural ally because of his strong support for consumer rights, Jim has been vocally critical of Gamergate and has always been highly critical of the violent threats against Anita Sarkeesian which emerged in 2012 and continue. Here he says: 'While I was a “champion of the people” for supporting fans during the Mass Effect 3 ending saga, in recent months I’m more of an enemy of the state for publicly stating my grievances with GamerGate. That’s something that could directly translate into a steep decline in financial support using the Patreon model. Standing up for your principles could mean you watch your income fluctuate wildly as you potentially lose supporters.'

TBC. Battery issues. --TS 00:11, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Continuing.

• Women’s voices rightly pushing to advance gaming culture in the Seattle Times. I think this is important because it's the first newsprint reference I've seen to Kathy Sierra's seminal “Kool-Aid Point” thesis: “The most vocal trolling and ‘hate’ for a brand kicks in HARD once a critical mass of brand fans/users are thought to have ‘drunk the Kool-Aid.’ ” In short, the problem of women in tech is not that women are in tech, but that people think their ideas are actually important."

• How to stop anonymous trolls from destroying online games by nerd celebrity and actor Wil Wheaton, appears to be a reprint of his Washington Post piece. --TS 00:39, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• The Video Game Industry: Good For The Economy, Bad For Women? from WBBM-TV, Chicago's CBS affiliate. Discusses the negative impact on the video game industry if it becomes identified with misogynistic harassment, states that "individuals claiming to represent 'ethics in video game journalism' harass female gamers as well as critics, designers and journalists who challenge women’s secondary status in the industry" and concludes "...the gaming industry has a long way to go before women feel safe and welcome." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Once again, it looks like no one is attempting to distinguish between news and opinion pieces as sources. This is an ongoing problem for this article. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 02:09, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

This is an article about a social struggle so we're probably going to need many opinion sources. I'm starting an attempt to father and catalogue the growing wealth of sources so we can decide which ones to use. As an example the Jim Sterling saga hasn't really been covered so far, though it's an example of a guy who is a strong advocate for ethics in gaming journalism but strongly rejects Gamergate as a vehicle. The MPR piece relates recent Gamergate harassment to longstanding harassment of women online. These are aspects that will tend to loom larger as the major events recede into the past and Gamergate is placed into historical context. --TS 02:24, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

We actually should be trying avoid opinion sources, save for those directly involved, as we are still far too close to the event (if not still in it) that "external" opinions are going to be skewed. We should be trying to avoid excessive opinioning - outside of the necessary broad claims that have been made and the reactions to those. --MASEM (t) 05:17, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

It that's a fine argument; perhaps we are too close to the event for analysis to be relevant, perhaps not. Some of these sources are news reports, not opinion pieces. Some of the opinion pieces also contain useful factual statements that don't exist in other sources we've seen. For instance, the article about Jim Sterling introduces part of the story not previously accessible, and relates directly to the conflict between Gamergate claims about ethics and how that actually plays out in the gaming community. The MPR piece reports factually about severe inline harassment. --TS 09:40, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Formatting error

In this correction by Fut.Perf., somehow he finds a duplicate reference and converts it to the <ref name="whatever"/> format in the {{reflist}} list. Can it be removed?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

This got archived because no one answered.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Done got fixed. --PresN 06:29, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Sargon's anti-feminism

The pseudonymous YouTube broadcaster Sargon of Akkad is discussed in the context of the role of anti-feminism in Gamergate. Routinely he is referred to as anti-feminist because that's what he does, it's his thing. His videos have titles like "Feminism is a mental illness", " The Feminist Inquisition ", and "The feminist ideological conquest of DiGRA". They're almost all about the damage Sargon thinks is done by feminism.

This isn't controversial so it should be okay to refer to these self-published videos (no, a link isn't necessary for a reference, naming and dating the video is fine for the purposes of an encyclopaedia). I think this is a correct interpretation of WP:SELFPUB. My reference has been removed from the draft, though. Do we have any particular reason for not referring to this fellow's views in the context of a section of an article expressly about the role of people with such views? Here we're discussing a specific ideological position which Sargon makes a particular point of representing, and that's why we include him in the article. --TS 10:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed; this is not WP:OR or WP:SYNTH in any meaningful fashion. Sargon of Akkad is, self-professedly and self-evidently, opposed to feminism. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:30, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Why wouldn't we link it? Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

It's impossible because YouTube links are blacklisted. References are enough. --TS 14:36, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Someone please make sure to add Geordie Tait, who advocates gassing of Gamergate supporters, and believes that harassing three women is worse than the Holocaust, and is an islamophobe, to the article, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFU1gn6OeuY Original here: http://www.hitbox.tv/video/316600

Using this talk page for discussing edits to the working draft

Wasn't the whole purpose of the draft space page to allow discussion on the proposed draft be there rather than clutter up this one?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see anything to be gained from bifurcating content discussions across two talk pages. The intention of creating a draft is simply to permit content to be developed while the article is fully protected. --TS 11:30, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Well the original reason I had moved it into the draft space was because someone complained that a subpage of this page could not have a subsequent talk page.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:35, 16 November 2014 (UTC)