Talk:Great power

For older discussion, see archives: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6

Original research

Following the AFD vote which led to the deletion of the emerging superpowers articles, I've tagged the Great Powers section with an original research notice. We need to go through the text and makes sure that we are not synthesizing source material to argue for or against the status of a country as a great power. Each country designated as a great power must simply have sources, named and attributed in the text, explaining who designated them as a great power and why and during what time period. Remember, there is no academic consensus on when certain countries were great powers, for what reasons, and for what time periods. As such we must not present these countries as beyond discussion--all aspects of their great power status (or lack of status) are debated and continue to be debated. We must represent that debate, not justify the country's designation one way or the other. As such, these sections need a strict reworking representing only arguments from attributed sources.—Perceval 04:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I truly fail to see your reasoning. I think the article reflects the debate and subjective nature of the concept quite well. Would you mind pointing out any specific examples so I at least know what it is you suspect of being OR. Best Regards, Signature^brendel 07:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Perceval's concerns—his suggested modus operandi was certainly uppermost in my mind during the recent rewrite. We certainly don't want this to turn into the Major power page reborn. I've been rather away from this page over the past fortnight or so, but looking at the 'Great powers' section, I notice that some of these have been considerably expanded by other editors. I noted this trend in earlier comments above, but it seems to have picked up pace fairly recently. I would be happy for us to go through these sections again, reviewing content, removing OR synthesii (word?).

First and foremost though, the actual list of Great powers is not OR. What we do with these countries, and how they are laid out etc is the question. I think that the current layout is satisfactory, but I'm more than happy to review it.

Xdamr^talk 17:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Brendel, here is the difference between an WP:OR presentation and a presentation that meets WP:V. The current presentation states for example,

From the accession of the Archduke of Austria to the Holy Roman Emperorship in 1452, the Habsburgs were at the centre of great power politics until their demise in 1918.

It includes a citation to an author certainly, but the author is not attributed in the text. Some of the following reasons for Austria's great power status are from the same author, some are from other authors. The text presents Austria's great power status as being beyond debate--i.e. it was a great power from date XYZ to date ABC--whereas Austria's great power status is certainly debated, and the length/period of its great power status is not uniformly agreed upon. Moreover, the various sources (three that I count) are synthesized together to support the position, rather than attributing different arguments to different authors in the text. How to refactor these sections to avoid OR can be achieved in the following way:

Historian Art Vandelay names Austria as one of Europe's five great powers during the period XYZ-ABC. He cites their formidable military expenditures, which rivaled those of ??? country, their vast territorial holdings, their strategic marriages during this time, and the size of their army which exceeded that of ***. International relations theorist H.P. Pennypacker, on the other hand, believes that a distinction between regional and global great powers is necessary, and while a number of European countries were globally relevant due to their naval strength, Austria could only be counted as a regional great power, as it lacked a navy. Historian Joe Davola says that Austria was a great power, but asserts that it was for a briefer period, from ABC-XYZ years, due to the following reasons, blah blah blah etc etc etc."

See how in the second example the arguments are clearly attributed to each author in the text, so that the reader knows whose theory they're reading? The way the sections are currently presented, the reader is essentially reading The Wikipedia Theory as to Austria's great power status, rather than reading competing expert theories summarized side by side. The former is OR, the latter is verifiable. This is the change that needs to occur.—Perceval 18:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes I see. That is the way I cite theories in my social class articles as I acutally agree with you that authors ought to be cited in the text. Now that I see what you consider OR (though I am still doubtful whether or not neglecting to mention an author is really OR), I'm assuming that the way to fix this article is also the way to fix the emerging superpowers text. Thanks for giving some concrete suggestions. Signature^brendel 18:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yep. People need to be reading a summary of the "state of the debate", not a collection of facts that Wikipedians assembled. Applies in both cases. It's certainly doable, and I think the editors of these articles are up to it. And the articles will be 100% better for it.—Perceval 18:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel that the section can be marked "OR/unverified" in good faith, even in its current state—the 115 inline references cover a lot of ground. Still, I don't object to the changes you want to make here; I have argued for similar changes in the past, and much progress has already been made (look at the article just one month ago!). CRGreathouse (t | c) 18:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:OR: "It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source." This is, in fact, textbook OR, and ought to be deleted outright, rather than simply being tagged. However, I think the editors here are enthusiastic and have already put in a lot of work, and will be willing to put in the work to get this change made. Until then, the tag ought to remain so that our readers are aware that they are reading a synthesis created by Wikipedians, rather than attributed arguments.—Perceval 19:05, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't remove the tag; I agree that a case could be made for the section as OR. I don't believe it is for reasons I've mentioned, but I see no reason to fight about it in light of the fact that all the editors appear to agree with you on the way the article needs to change. CRGreathouse (t | c) 19:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I know you didn't remove the tag. And I know all the editors here are proud of their hard work. Instead of arguing about the tag, the best thing for the article and for our readers is to bring the section up to the standards set by Wikipedia's content policies.—Perceval 19:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Title

This title of this article severely violates NPOV. It reeks of 19th-century white supremacy. No nation should be called great comparatively. A more descriptive and accurate title is Major Power. No wonder there's so much argument above. Mandel 19:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That's an odd comment. Great power is a technical term, which has a technical meaning. 'Major power' is just a phrase evoking nations which have (some unspecified level of) power. This article is about the former, not the latter. CRGreathouse (t | c) 20:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes Great power is a technical term, used in history, it can be applied about european international policy during Modern Era, expecially between 1815 (Congress of Vienna) to 1945 (end of World War II), after World War II the term was replaced by the concept of bipolarism and the use of the term superpower; now, after the Cold War, we still need to find new terms to describe international affairs, expecially about the actual debate upon multilateralism and unipolarism.

Well the term isn't POV but it is subjective as is the subject matter of this article. The term is commonly used in academia and thus we use it here as well. I think your critisims are certainly valid but this is the wrong forum to post them. It is a good arguement for you to publish in a journal or op-ed piece but as long as academis seems set on using the term "Great Power" we will have to use it here as well- whether we think its the best choice of termonolgy or not. Signature^brendel 23:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the end of multipolarity around 1945-1950, or the end of bipolarity 40 years later, removes the usefulness of the term Great power. Why would it?

For a good discussion of *polarities, I heartily recommend the Wilkinson article toward the end of the citations.

CRGreathouse (t | c) 04:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Major power was deleted and redirected to great power. It will not come back. — Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 06:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

About the term "Great Powers": yes it is used in academia, but generally it is referred to the period before World War II. So if we want to maintain a neutral POV in Wikipedia the term can be used only about the historical period we are sure it is correct! About the usefulness of the term today: another time it is your POV. About multipolar/bipolar debate: it is not my POV that during Cold War the World was Bipolar and there were two Superpowers, if you affirm that between 1945 to 1990 the World was Multipolar, you are the one who needs to write articles about it! Because the majority of academics denied it. About the sources in the article: you searched and used the sources as they agree with your POV (that some countries are still today great powers and others are not): for example the same Danilovic essay, that you used so far for a great part of the article, affirms many times that none of the european countries was no more a global contenders after World War II, but you ignored it completely ! Another example: the sources over Middle Powers: you used it about some countries but not about others! (as it is referred above!) You also ignored completely some academic sources that can be easily consulted as this The Eclipse of a Great Power: Modern Britain, 1870-1975 by Keith Robbins! Wikipedia required a neutral POV, I'm displeased to say that this article about "Great Power" has too much an European POV, expecially a British POV! So I will write to administration to ask some change!

"generally it is referred to the period before World War II" -- where do you get this idea? I see the term in use primarily in the period around the time of the publication, a little before in discussing past events and a little after in predicting future events. In fact any political journal covering this sort of context should be filled with contemporary uses of the term; I would list papers, but it would be the majority of the papers on the subject I have downloaded, copied, or printed out. CRGreathouse (t | c) 23:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

you used the sources you preferred, tipically and politically oriented to the right, expecially ih the Aglo-saxon world! In the left sources and in the academic continental Europe the term is despised, for example as you can see in the sources referred above, where many German politics don't want apply the term to their country, because the term evokes negative periods of their history!

"Politically oriented to the right"? Odd choice for me, considering that I don't lean right. CRGreathouse (t | c) 18:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes, this is rich. I'm a liberal continental European and US citizen who quoted a German sociology professor in the Germany section. In you previous post you said this article has a European bias, and now it has an anti-continental Euro bias?! I think we can whole-heartetly dismiss the "right-wing 'Anglo-Saxon' bias" (The first time I have ever this phrase ;-)) accusations. If you find sources that are reliable and contain information pertaining to the subject you can add info from them. If they contradict sources already cited in the article, then you still don't delete those but rather objecitvely discuss the contradiction. Otherwise this discussion seems just a waste of server space. And sign your posts! Signature^brendel 19:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Syntax

In this context, isn't "Great power" a proper noun, i.e. rename the article "Great Power"...?  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 09:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

England

If Scotland breaks away from the UK soon and Wales follows suit would England be considered a great power considering it would account for 95% of the UK's former power. England would still be the 2nd largest economy in Europe behind Germany but ahead of France and would have the highest growth rate out of the major European economies of Germany, France, and Italy. London would be the capital of England and would still be one of the most major cities on Earth and the largest city in the EU. London would also still be the most major economic centre in Europe and 3rd in the world with the largest stock exchange in Europe and 3rd largest in the world. England would likely continue to use the Pound Sterling which is the 3rd most major currency in the world after the Dollar and Euro. England would likely continue to keep the UK's UN Security Council seat and keep all the UK's nuclear weapons because of this. England would also most likely keep the 2 new aircraft carriers being built as Scotland or Wales would be unable to afford to maintain one or have any real desire for one. England would probably keep about 90% or more of the UK's armed forces as Scotland and Wales would play no real role in the world and would probably continue to keep the defence spending as high as the UK did, which was 2nd in the world. England would also most likely keep all the UK's overseas territories as Scotland or Wales would lack any real desire or abilty to retain such distant territories, which would mean England would have the most number of overseas territories in the world as the UK does currently. England would also be likely to continue fullfil the role the UK took in overseas conflicts. In all England would be almost as strong as the UK was and would definitely be considered a Great power. Others' thoughts on this welcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.25.137 (talk • contribs)

Offhand I tend to agree with most of the analysis, although I would think England without Scotland and Wales to be smaller than France economically, as I thought they were very close with those two. But what has this to do with the article? CRGreathouse (t | c) 04:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I do have to say that is really quite irrelevant. Talk pages are not to be used discussion boards- if you like England, that's fine but this is too off-topic. Regards, Signature^brendel 05:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It's about that England should be included into this article as one of the great powers if or when the UK should split up.