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Talk:Ralph Nader

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by B.Andersohn (talk | contribs) at 15:54, 21 December 2022 (→Religious affiliation: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good articleRalph Nader was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
In the news Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 13, 2006Good article nomineeListed
June 2, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
July 19, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
March 18, 2008Good article reassessmentDelisted
In the news A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on February 23, 2004.
Current status: Delisted good article

Template:Vital article

List of organizations Nader has helped found

I saw this list in a version of this article from 2004:

I am not sure if they all qualify as notable, but I’ll be checking all of them. Thriley (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Personality and character traits

hello i have a question concerning the entire part of "Personality and character traits"

the question is the following: what?

and i also may add: why?

if you try to describe -for whatever reason and with what ever relevance- a person in 3 sentences, thats framing not scrutiny. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.100.35.1 (talk) 11:52, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are 5 independent, secondary sources for this section. None of those sources seem to be writing in a particularly sensationalist or tabloid gossip style. It would seem to be of note that Nader eschews riches, fashion, wealth, and their trappings, along with marriage and family life. This is rather counter-cultural of him and reinforces his message of activism. Elizium23 (talk) 22:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Religious affiliation

There is a source which says Ralph's parents were Lebanese Maronites. The biography of Archimandrite Bassilios, Ralph's uncle, mentions both Antiochian Orthodox and Syrian Orthodox churches, but not Maronite. It would not be surprising for immigrants of that era to sort of fluidly attend parishes in different jurisdictions.

The Syrian Orthodox communion is Oriental Orthodox and would be closely allied with Maronites, while the Antiochan Greek Orthodox would be Eastern Orthodox; ethnically close but, in terms of doctrine and liturgy, separate. Elizium23 (talk) 18:14, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@B.Andersohn: if you're using info about Ralph's uncle to infer something about Ralph's own religious faith, then that's WP:SYNTH. Elizium23 (talk) 18:47, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@B.Andersohn: Seconding Elizium23 here; there is absolutely no information on Ralph Nader in that source your provided that states he was Antiochian Orthodox. Sometimes there are mixed Lebanese families, and reliable sourcing asserts him as explicitly Maronite. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@ Elizium23, @ Pbritti "a sort of fluidly re attending parishes in different jurisdictions"!! I'm at loss for words here... You clearly have no knowledge of the issue at hand...

The "Syrian Orthodox communions are Oriental Orthodox Christians and would be closely allied with Maronites"... maybe, BUT the Antiochian Greek Orthodox commuity is not "Oriental", unlike e.g. "Syriacs" or "Chaldeans" or even "Armenian Apostolics" etc.

Ralph Nader's community is actually "Eastern Orthodox" like the e.g. Greeks or Russians etc. You're confusing "Oriental" and "Eastern" Christianity here

Nader's community is also called the Greco-Roman "Meklite" Communion of Syria, Lebanon & Upper Galilee (old-fashioned, comprehensive name), and it has absolutely nothing to do with the Maronite Church ("Oriental Catholics") or the "Oriental Orthodox" Christians of Northern Syria or Eastern Turkey etc

Once again, you're totally confused

The article published by the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church of America says that Ralph Nader's FATHER was a man named Nathra Nader Saffi, from a small village called Arsoun.

And that Nader Sr. counted many Greek-Orthodox priests and bishops in his family, including his own brother!

Finally, ALL French, American, and Bristish ethnographers of the early 20th C. describe Arsoun's Christians as being "of the Greek faith" or "Antiochian Greek Orthodox". You can check ....

@B.Andersohn: Yes, but if Ralph Nader is specifically described as a Maronite in reliable sources, you can't just say that's wrong because you have sources that describe other people as Antiochian Orthodox. Per WP:RS, your edit will be undone and the sources you deleted returned unless you can provide other sources that specifically describe Nader—not his family, not his ancestral hometown, but the man himself—as something other than Maronite. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:10, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@ Elizium23, @ Pbritti The Time magazine article you seem to rely on is clearly mistaken... But, on a different plane, why are you saying that particular article is more "realiable" than the DETAILED obituaries of several of Ralph Nader's family members = published by the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church of America? The "logic" is hard to comprehend!! All that being said, I will also look for another article etc

@ Elizium23, @ Pbritti SECOND SOURCE: "Ethnicity of Celebrities", 18 July 2016: "Ralph is the son of Rose (Bouziane) and Nathra Nader. His family was of the Antioch Greek Orthodox religion. He was the Green Party’s nominee for President of the United States in 1996"

@ Elizium23, @ Pbritti THIRD SOURCE: REAGANLAND: AMERICA'S RIGHT TURN, by reknown historian Rick Perlstein, Simon & Schuster, 2021. PAGE 193: "Ralph Nader was born in 1934 to Lebanese American parents...They were Antiochian Greek Orthodox Christians" cf. Google Book, pg. 193. Clearly, @ Elizium23, @ Pbritti you're absolutely WRONG!!

@B.Andersohn: now hold on. Only Reaganland is a reliable source of the sources you've cited. WP:SHOUTING is against policy, so you'll need to quit that, and please sign your comments. As best I can tell, more books identify Ralph Nader as Maronite than they do as Antiochian Orthodox (see Theory in Social and Cultural Anthropology, Time: The Middle East). ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:34, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@B.Andersohn: yes, I may be confused by the bio of Bassilios. "Antiochan" only appears once in that article, and most of the other churches are described as "Syrian Orthodox". Spot-checking those specific parishes indeed reveals that they are of Antiochan jurisdiction (EO) and not Syriac (OO). So it's safe for us to establish firmly that Ralph's uncle was Greek-Orthodox of Antiochan (EO) jurisdiction. And, it's entirely possible that several sources are incorrect about the Nader parents' Maronite (OO) affiliation. @Pbritti, do they go any deeper such as mentioning what parish they attended or anything?
I don't know if we'll delve into a real detailed picture of Ralph's faith life here, and so at this point I'd like to suggest B.Andersohn stop fighting us and screaming that we're lying about the Maronite thing. The only thing we can do is hold up both sets of sources and say "either, or." There will be no definitive conclusion about this if equally-reliable sources cannot be reconciled. Elizium23 (talk) 18:43, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per @Elizium23: I'm actually rather content citing Reaganland, Theory, and Time with a revised passage that reads something like "Ralph Nader was raised Maronite[citations] or Antiochian Orthodox[citation] by Lebanese parents." We can you around with it if you'd like, B.Andersohn. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's actually useful information if the Naders hailed from a majority-Greek village. We could use that as background information for the family to say that's the faith of their neighbors. But we can't simply contradict established and reliable sources that insist they were Maronite. That would be WP:SYNTH.
Of course there may be another way. If there are public records, such as sacraments or census records, they could be researched to see about Ralph and his parents. Of course these sources would be invalid for Wikipedia's use, but it could settle a bet! Elizium23 (talk) 18:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since the ecclesial source references Nader directly, I definitely think we could put that somewhere, too. Presumably the New York Maronite eparchy would have the records on Nader; a simple email would probably do the trick. As said, couldn't be cited but it could be used to inform which sources to trust. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Elizium23 @Pbritti
Dear Pbritti & to a lesser extent Elizium, I'm at loss for words here...
1) You seem to imply that mistaken = faulty articles written recently by some minor Time magazine journalist are more "valid" than official bios & obituaries of Ralph Nader's family published by the Antiochian Greek Orthodoxy Church of America. Strange approach...
2) You say there are more books describing him as "Maronite" = factually not true.
Ralph Nader's "real" = full name" is Raphael Nader Saffi, Nader being a middle name. The name was "Americanised" in the 1940s according to his uncle (see obituary sent earlier)
Now, I have already sent/referenced three rock-solid sources showing that Ralph Nader's parents were Antiochian Greek Orthodox Christians i.e. Melkites in the etymological sense = not "Maronites" or "Oriental Orthodox" = very different ethnocultural categories
Will send you a fourth one later today B.Andersohn (talk) 15:54, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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