Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles

linking to Ireland

I see somebody changing link to Republic of Ireland to [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] claiming to do this based on this manual of style. Perhaps I overlook something, but I cannot find that as such. Where can I find that? The Banner talk 17:00, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

That is standard practice unless there is a specific need to distinguish NI from RoI. It was a compromise reached over a decade ago in an epic dispute regarding the proper name for the country officially known as Ireland - but called "Republic of Ireland" on Wikipedia. Best not to rehash all that - it brings back painful memories. Sarah777 (talk) 19:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi. I had noted the same (lots of edits following a similar pattern/EDSUM). The relevant guideline is WP:IRE-IRL. Personally I'm not sure that every one of the editor's changes are strictly necessary or entirely consistent with WP:IRE-IRL. This change by Cashew.wheel, for example, changes something that is clear (and otherwise consistent with WP:IRE-IRL) to something that is arguably less clear (that Corrib is the largest lake in Ireland - when Lough Neagh is the largest on the island). Personally, in that case, I would argue that the previous wording was better, clearer, more accurate and not inconsistent with the guideline. Blanket changes of this type (without perhaps full consideration to why each article/sentence was worded as it was) isn't entirely consistent with the spirit (or meaning) of the hard-fought compromise/CON. IMHO anyway. Guliolopez (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I have found it now. The edits looks rather useless to me but I will shut up. The Banner talk 00:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I assure you that each edit is considered and they are not blanket edits across the board, where using the description "Republic Of Ireland" is more appropriate I have left them unchanged. Cashew.wheel (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Those are the changes I made based on WP:IRE-IRL: "Use 'Ireland' for the state except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context. In such circumstances use Republic of Ireland".

If there are objections to any of my edits I'm happy to discuss here or on my talk page. Cashew.wheel (talk) 08:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I see that you now have changed for WP:IMOS to WP:IRE-IRL. That does not matter to my opinion that it are useless edits, as you are in fact changing something that is correct to something that is correct. The Banner talk 10:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The sad thing that he still goes on with his campaign. To put it politely, not always in the best interest of our readers or the encyclopedia. Instead of searching consensus beforehand he (I assume) only start discussion with everybody who dares to revert. The Banner talk 09:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The consensus for the use of Ireland has already been agreed in WP:IRE-IRL as the other editors have mentioned. As I said in my last comment, I'm open to discussing any concerns here. No one wants to engage in an edit war, hence why I reached out to understand why you reverted my edit, politely attempt to justify the rational for the change and for us to agree a consensus. For example the specific edit you reverted on Shannon Airport was changing "in County Clare in the Republic Of Ireland" to "in County Clare, Ireland", which would have been consistent with the opening paragraph of Dublin, Cork & Knock airports. Cashew.wheel (talk) 10:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

There is consensus about the form, not about the rigid implementation of it. And as mentioned earlier in this discussion by Guliolopez: Personally, in that case, I would argue that the previous wording was better, clearer, more accurate and not inconsistent with the guideline. Blanket changes of this type (without perhaps full consideration to why each article/sentence was worded as it was) isn't entirely consistent with the spirit (or meaning) of the hard-fought compromise/CON. The Banner talk 11:09, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

It seems to have something to do with this discussion: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration#Move: Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country). Worrisome. The Banner talk 12:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I've seen that post too and find it neither polite nor constructive. In case you think I am behind the post, it's not me. Cashew.wheel (talk) 12:51, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Then why have you signed it? The Banner talk 18:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, yes that was a topic I started. I incorrectly assumed you were linking to a new discussion on Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration on the same topic, however with an aggressive tone, which was posted around the same time as your comment here. Cashew.wheel (talk) 19:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

You should not assume but read. You also assumed something here while the given source says something different. In fact, is does not state Ireland, it does not state Republic of Ireland. It states... nothing. Just Office of the Attorney General. Did you check the source before editing? To my humble opinion, it starts to get disruptive what you are doing. The Banner talk 23:38, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Apparently, there are "lots of edits", but none of them are linked here. With regard to this, WP:IRE-IRL specifically says Use "Ireland" for the state except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context. The paragraph in Shannon airport refers to both the state and the island. With regard to this, WP:IRE-IRL specifically says Per the Linking guideline of the Manual of Style, the names of major geographic features and locations should not be linked. It then states, If it is thought necessary to link, in order to establish context or for any other reason, the name of the state should be pipelinked as [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]. In other words, "Ireland" should not be linked or pipelinked unless it is demonstrably necessary, i.e. in the great majority of articles, including the Burren College of Art article. The edit summary "per WP:IRE-IRL" is therefore wrong in both cases. Scolaire (talk) 12:29, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

The "same context" guidance of WP:IRE-IRL is subjective, it could be sentence, paragraph, sub-heading or page.

With regards the WP:OVERLINK on Burren College of Art, I felt it was necessary at the time to link as there was a bug in {{Infobox school}}. That issue has since been resolved and I've reverted any linking I'd added to articles on schools in Ireland. Cashew.wheel (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it could be sentence, paragraph, sub-heading or page. Manuals of style don't go into that sort of detail, because otherwise they would get bogged down in detail. But if it's likely that it's being used in the same context – and both state and island being referred to in a 40-word intro is a dead giveaway – then we assume that it is. Scolaire (talk) 16:35, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Is the changing of links from Republic of Ireland to [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] mandatory? Despite earlier discussions, Cashew.wheel is continuing his campaign. To my opinion, it should be used sensible, as in improving clarity for our readers, not the opposite. The Banner talk 09:32, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Cashew.wheel is still keeping up with his campaign. With the same arguments as before and acting as if MOS:IRELAND and WP:IRE-IRL are policies that have to be enforced. Even when it diminishing the clarity. The Banner talk 12:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

It's obvious that @The Banner disagrees with the consensus on WP:IRE-IRL and has changed numerous references from "Ireland" to "Republic Of Ireland", primarily for articles of state agencies where no disambiguation from the island or Northern Ireland needs to be considered.

Some were my edits such as Garda Siochana, NSAI and Irish Water, while other were from other editors i.e. Marine Institute Ireland and ESB Group. Cashew.wheel (talk) 14:00, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

It is sad to see that Cashew.wheel is misrepresenting my view. I am not against the MOS. I just want it applied in a smart way, i.e. there where it improves clarity. But Cashew.wheel is enforcing it as if it is a policy, instead of a guideline/advice. Beside that, many of his (I assume) edits are completely superfluous, diminish clarity and/or are plain editwarring, like here. It was Cashew.wheel himself who advised me to come here where there were already some older discussions about the same issue. Discussions that were ignored by him. A third party named him on his talk page already a SPA due to the way he is operating around this issue. The Banner talk 14:12, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

And please note that the examples used by Cashew.wheel are from July last. The Banner talk 14:17, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I can't see why you are both coming here with your dispute. This talk page is for discussion of the content of IMOS, not for discussion of how it is being interpreted or applied. It seems to me The Banner acknowledges that Cashew.wheel's edit are in line with IMOS (and for clarity, IRE-IRL is a short cut to a section of IMOS; nobody is citing two different pages), but doesn't want it followed in certain places because it is not a policy. That makes this a content dispute, which doesn't belong here. The dispute obviously covers too many articles to discuss it on article talk pages, so the next step, I would suggest, is to go to the Dispute resolution noticeboard. Another possibility is to open an RfC at WikiProject Ireland. Alternatively, you can carry on edit-warring till you both end up at AN/I. Scolaire (talk) 15:07, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

As suggested, I have opened an RFC on the suggested page. See: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#RFC Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles Republic of Ireland - Ireland. The Banner talk 16:45, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Style guide for Irish case law

I had suggested this lasy year, but with the coverage of a certain recent study, I thought it worth resurrecting this thread. AugusteBlanqui may have been busy writing up the study when I last approached this! With so many good articles from the project, which will hopefully encourage more, it would be good to have a consistent style for Irish case law on MOS:IRELAND/MOS:LAW. I had mentioned OSCOLA on the last occasion, in part because it's used for at least one publisher in Ireland and other jurisdiction on MOS:LAW, but I'm by no means wedded to that one. The Irish Reports, the highest authority reports, use punctuation a bit more, such as after the v. in case names, so could be worth adopting if students and other editors are using that as a resource. But there should be one consistent one, with a guide both for naming articles and the text. — Iveagh Gardens (talk) 09:06, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Muine Bheag/Bagenalstown

The Place names section currently says "[when] the Irish name is official and has gained favour in English, use the official Irish name (Muine Bheag, not Bagenalstown)", but Muine Bheag has now been moved to Bagenalstown. I've crossed out the part in brackets, but we need to come up with an alternative place name. The best I can think of is Dún Laoghaire/Dunleary, but does anybody actually write "Dunleary" any more? Does anybody have a better alternative? If we can't come up with a reasonable and realistic example, then we ought to scrap that sentence. Scolaire (talk) 11:25, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi. How about Cúil Aodha (not Coolea)? Or Cill Ghallagáin (not Kilgalligan)? Or Casla (not Costelloe)? Or Loch an Iúir (not Loughanure)? To my mind, Cúil Aodha is a fairly solid example to act as replacement... Guliolopez (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll go with Cúil Aodha then. Scolaire (talk) 14:05, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I have spotted a problem with the use of Cúil Aodha as an example. On its talk page it has been argued that the anglicisation is more common in English than its Irish language name. Before I read this, I ran a Google Trends comparison and found that there appears to be much more searches searches for "Coolea" than "Cúil Aodha" from within Ireland over the past five years and the suggestions dropbox seems to recognise "Coolea" as the name of the village. My comparisons for Casla vs Costello and Costelloe and Loch an Lúir vs Loughanure yielded similar results but I could not get a result for Cill Ghallagáin vs Kilgalligan. I would also like to point out that Dún Laoghaire was known as Kingstown from 1821 to 1920 and I have seen "Kingstown" used in a historical context in a leaflet about its harbour describing the sinking of a ship (most likely the RMS Leinster in 1918). Therefore, I would like to suggest using "Dún Laoghaire (not Kingstown or Dunleary)" as it is a better known example and it is in a predominantly English-speaking area. I have thought about "Cobh (not Queenstown or Cove)" considering it would be recognisable to those familiar with the voyage of the RMS Titanic but its modern Irish language name is An Cóbh according to the bilingual nameboards at its railway station. Tk420 (talk) 21:54, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Hiya. In terms of:

• Google Trends. I'm sure whether, if or how Google Trends does so (or can), but I would suggest that many of those searches are for the cheese rather than the village/area. Certainly a regular Google search drops from 89,000 results to 41,000 results when we exclude the cheese. (Otherwise a regular search for the term is heavily cheese-skewed.)
• MOS. The guideline reads simply "[Where] the Irish name is official and has gained favour in English, use the official Irish name". And there is plenty of evidence that the Irish name has "gained favour" in English-language sources. Like in news sources for example.
• Cobh. Appreciate that you're just offering it as an example (one you've yourself discounted), but Cobh should absolutely not be used as an example in this case. As discussed (and supported) in Cobh#Name, An Cóbh has no history. It's a backformation. If others feel strongly that Cúil Aodha (or others that I proposed) are imperfect examples to use, then that's fine. But Cobh is a non-starter. It's an "irregular" :) By some way....

Casla is otherwise perhaps a less controversial choice... Cheers. Guliolopez (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I have spotted a problem with Casla in which the anglicised "Costello" and "Costelloe" are ambiguous so it could be said that the use of "Casla" is to avoid the need for disambiguation if the anglicisations are common. The same could be said for Cúil Aodha to avoid the need for disambiguation from the cheese but the artcile about the cheese is titled "Coolea cheese" suggesting the village is the primary topic associated with the name "Coolea". It is also worth noting that the name "Kingstown" is also ambiguous as it is also the name of the capital of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines which is the primary topic associated with the name although the use of Dún Laoghaire in the article's title appears to be based on commonality over the other spellings for the accepted Irish name. I could also be said that "Cúil Aodha" is used in response to English usage being indecisive as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names. This does still make me wonder if it would be more desirable to use a name that is based on commonality rather than indecisive English usage or to avoid the need for disambiguation as an example of an official Irish language name that has gained favour in English. Tk420 (talk) 21:35, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

The more this discussion goes on, the more I lean towards the view that official names should be taken out of the MOS altogether. WP:COMMONNAME, which is part of WP:Article titles, a policy, has this to say:

Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above [recognisability, naturalness, precision, concision and consistency]. When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly.

The requested move at Muine Bheag followed this to the letter, whereas if IMOS had been followed it would have been closed as "speedy keep per IMOS". A manual of style shouldn't directly go against policy. Scolaire (talk) 10:54, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Personally I think that the MOS entry ("(1) use English name if it's the commonname, (2) don't use Irish name unless its the commonname, (3) use the official Irish name if its the common name in English") aligns with WP:COMMONNAME. Rather than conflicting with it. Effectively clarifying that the commonname in English is the yard-stick. But, if there is consensus that the clarification is redundant (or potentially confusing), then that's OK with me. Otherwise I think the current guideline/clarification is perfectly OK as it is. And the examples are also grand as they are. And we may be in danger of flogging this TBH. Certainly the focus on finding an "uncomplicated" Google Trends example (a placename whose Irish and English versions cannot be used in any other context) seems an unnecessary rabbit hole to be descending :) To my mind the original problem (finding an "OK" replacement for Muine Bheag/Bagenalstown) is solved. And we're now we've moved on to some other problem (that I'm personally losing interest in defining :) ) Guliolopez (talk) 11:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

But that's not what it says. (1) is "and the English name predominates in English", while (3) is "and the Irish name is official and has gained favour in English". The first does come down in favour of the common name in English, but the last says to use the official name if it is common-ish, and disregards whether there is consensus that the English name is more common. If an Irish name is the common name, like Dún Laoghaire, then the fact that it is the official name is irrelevant, and if an RM decides in favour of the English name, like Bagenalstown, then the fact that Muine Bheag is the official name is irrelevant. Scolaire (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I feel the current guideline here is already very much in line with WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names and it helps to explain the issue in the context of place names in Ireland. Starting roughly six years ago, I was involved in disputes over place names in Wales and I wished there was a similar guide for places in Wales. The closest thing to such a guide is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Europe and North Asia#Wales but it does not answer my problem. Back to Ireland, my suggestions here are over which example to use rather than whether there should be such a guide and I still think "Dún Laoghaire (not Kingstown or Dunleary)" is a better example of an Irish language place name common in English than Cúil Aodha although it is common-ish. Tk420 (talk) 20:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

@Tk420: I'm removing "Kingstown", as that hasn't been the name of the town for over 100 years. The article is no more likely to be named "Kingstown" than Oslo is likely to be named Christiana.

The point I was making above is that the current guideline is not in line with COMMONNAME, which says that article titles should not be decided by what is official, but by what is commonly used in English. The paragraph should be simplified to "Where the English- and Irish-language names are different, use the name that is most commonly used in English, e.g. Wicklow, not Cill Mhantáin; Dún Laoghaire, not Dunleary". Scolaire (talk) 11:22, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Bad example in "Article titles" section

The first example under Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Article titles has gone bad, because what we're saying is the real article title is now itself a redirect. Needs to be replaced with something else.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:31, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

You're right, thanks for pointing it out. I've updated it to the new names. Canterbury Tail talk 02:48, 8 March 2023 (UTC)