Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles

linking to Ireland

I see somebody changing link to Republic of Ireland to [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] claiming to do this based on this manual of style. Perhaps I overlook something, but I cannot find that as such. Where can I find that? The Banner talk 17:00, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

That is standard practice unless there is a specific need to distinguish NI from RoI. It was a compromise reached over a decade ago in an epic dispute regarding the proper name for the country officially known as Ireland - but called "Republic of Ireland" on Wikipedia. Best not to rehash all that - it brings back painful memories. Sarah777 (talk) 19:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi. I had noted the same (lots of edits following a similar pattern/EDSUM). The relevant guideline is WP:IRE-IRL. Personally I'm not sure that every one of the editor's changes are strictly necessary or entirely consistent with WP:IRE-IRL. This change by Cashew.wheel, for example, changes something that is clear (and otherwise consistent with WP:IRE-IRL) to something that is arguably less clear (that Corrib is the largest lake in Ireland - when Lough Neagh is the largest on the island). Personally, in that case, I would argue that the previous wording was better, clearer, more accurate and not inconsistent with the guideline. Blanket changes of this type (without perhaps full consideration to why each article/sentence was worded as it was) isn't entirely consistent with the spirit (or meaning) of the hard-fought compromise/CON. IMHO anyway. Guliolopez (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I have found it now. The edits looks rather useless to me but I will shut up. The Banner talk 00:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I assure you that each edit is considered and they are not blanket edits across the board, where using the description "Republic Of Ireland" is more appropriate I have left them unchanged. Cashew.wheel (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Those are the changes I made based on WP:IRE-IRL: "Use 'Ireland' for the state except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context. In such circumstances use Republic of Ireland".

If there are objections to any of my edits I'm happy to discuss here or on my talk page. Cashew.wheel (talk) 08:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I see that you now have changed for WP:IMOS to WP:IRE-IRL. That does not matter to my opinion that it are useless edits, as you are in fact changing something that is correct to something that is correct. The Banner talk 10:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The sad thing that he still goes on with his campaign. To put it politely, not always in the best interest of our readers or the encyclopedia. Instead of searching consensus beforehand he (I assume) only start discussion with everybody who dares to revert. The Banner talk 09:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The consensus for the use of Ireland has already been agreed in WP:IRE-IRL as the other editors have mentioned. As I said in my last comment, I'm open to discussing any concerns here. No one wants to engage in an edit war, hence why I reached out to understand why you reverted my edit, politely attempt to justify the rational for the change and for us to agree a consensus. For example the specific edit you reverted on Shannon Airport was changing "in County Clare in the Republic Of Ireland" to "in County Clare, Ireland", which would have been consistent with the opening paragraph of Dublin, Cork & Knock airports. Cashew.wheel (talk) 10:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

There is consensus about the form, not about the rigid implementation of it. And as mentioned earlier in this discussion by Guliolopez: Personally, in that case, I would argue that the previous wording was better, clearer, more accurate and not inconsistent with the guideline. Blanket changes of this type (without perhaps full consideration to why each article/sentence was worded as it was) isn't entirely consistent with the spirit (or meaning) of the hard-fought compromise/CON. The Banner talk 11:09, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

It seems to have something to do with this discussion: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration#Move: Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country). Worrisome. The Banner talk 12:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I've seen that post too and find it neither polite nor constructive. In case you think I am behind the post, it's not me. Cashew.wheel (talk) 12:51, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Then why have you signed it? The Banner talk 18:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, yes that was a topic I started. I incorrectly assumed you were linking to a new discussion on Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration on the same topic, however with an aggressive tone, which was posted around the same time as your comment here. Cashew.wheel (talk) 19:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

You should not assume but read. You also assumed something here while the given source says something different. In fact, is does not state Ireland, it does not state Republic of Ireland. It states... nothing. Just Office of the Attorney General. Did you check the source before editing? To my humble opinion, it starts to get disruptive what you are doing. The Banner talk 23:38, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Apparently, there are "lots of edits", but none of them are linked here. With regard to this, WP:IRE-IRL specifically says Use "Ireland" for the state except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context. The paragraph in Shannon airport refers to both the state and the island. With regard to this, WP:IRE-IRL specifically says Per the Linking guideline of the Manual of Style, the names of major geographic features and locations should not be linked. It then states, If it is thought necessary to link, in order to establish context or for any other reason, the name of the state should be pipelinked as [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]. In other words, "Ireland" should not be linked or pipelinked unless it is demonstrably necessary, i.e. in the great majority of articles, including the Burren College of Art article. The edit summary "per WP:IRE-IRL" is therefore wrong in both cases. Scolaire (talk) 12:29, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

The "same context" guidance of WP:IRE-IRL is subjective, it could be sentence, paragraph, sub-heading or page.

With regards the WP:OVERLINK on Burren College of Art, I felt it was necessary at the time to link as there was a bug in {{Infobox school}}. That issue has since been resolved and I've reverted any linking I'd added to articles on schools in Ireland. Cashew.wheel (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it could be sentence, paragraph, sub-heading or page. Manuals of style don't go into that sort of detail, because otherwise they would get bogged down in detail. But if it's likely that it's being used in the same context – and both state and island being referred to in a 40-word intro is a dead giveaway – then we assume that it is. Scolaire (talk) 16:35, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Is the changing of links from Republic of Ireland to [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] mandatory? Despite earlier discussions, Cashew.wheel is continuing his campaign. To my opinion, it should be used sensible, as in improving clarity for our readers, not the opposite. The Banner talk 09:32, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Cashew.wheel is still keeping up with his campaign. With the same arguments as before and acting as if MOS:IRELAND and WP:IRE-IRL are policies that have to be enforced. Even when it diminishing the clarity. The Banner talk 12:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

It's obvious that @The Banner disagrees with the consensus on WP:IRE-IRL and has changed numerous references from "Ireland" to "Republic Of Ireland", primarily for articles of state agencies where no disambiguation from the island or Northern Ireland needs to be considered.

Some were my edits such as Garda Siochana, NSAI and Irish Water, while other were from other editors i.e. Marine Institute Ireland and ESB Group. Cashew.wheel (talk) 14:00, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

It is sad to see that Cashew.wheel is misrepresenting my view. I am not against the MOS. I just want it applied in a smart way, i.e. there where it improves clarity. But Cashew.wheel is enforcing it as if it is a policy, instead of a guideline/advice. Beside that, many of his (I assume) edits are completely superfluous, diminish clarity and/or are plain editwarring, like here. It was Cashew.wheel himself who advised me to come here where there were already some older discussions about the same issue. Discussions that were ignored by him. A third party named him on his talk page already a SPA due to the way he is operating around this issue. The Banner talk 14:12, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

And please note that the examples used by Cashew.wheel are from July last. The Banner talk 14:17, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I can't see why you are both coming here with your dispute. This talk page is for discussion of the content of IMOS, not for discussion of how it is being interpreted or applied. It seems to me The Banner acknowledges that Cashew.wheel's edit are in line with IMOS (and for clarity, IRE-IRL is a short cut to a section of IMOS; nobody is citing two different pages), but doesn't want it followed in certain places because it is not a policy. That makes this a content dispute, which doesn't belong here. The dispute obviously covers too many articles to discuss it on article talk pages, so the next step, I would suggest, is to go to the Dispute resolution noticeboard. Another possibility is to open an RfC at WikiProject Ireland. Alternatively, you can carry on edit-warring till you both end up at AN/I. Scolaire (talk) 15:07, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

As suggested, I have opened an RFC on the suggested page. See: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#RFC Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles Republic of Ireland - Ireland. The Banner talk 16:45, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Bad example in "Article titles" section

The first example under Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Article titles has gone bad, because what we're saying is the real article title is now itself a redirect. Needs to be replaced with something else.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:31, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

You're right, thanks for pointing it out. I've updated it to the new names. Canterbury Tail talk 02:48, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Londonderry/Derry

The current situation regarding the use of these two names which was decided back in 2004 isn’t really appropriate. Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county. It’s perfectly acceptable to use both in Wikipedia articles just as people living there currently do today. By favouring one over the other you fuel resentment. It’s also appropriate to include the name of the county or city in the other recognised languages, people worked hard to have Ulster-Scots and Irish recognised in N.Ireland as languages which is why they were recognised in the Good Friday Agreement. Superlonghurst (talk) 16:25, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

You say "Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county", but then suggest that that is "favouring one over the other". I am at a loss to see the basis on which you suggest that the latter follows from the former. If, for example, there was a rule that the city could be described both as 'City of Derry' and 'City of Londonderry' and the county could be described as both 'County Derry' and 'County Londonderry', then that would be even-handed between both sides of the political divide, but would lead to endless edits. On the other hand, if there were a rule that the city could only be described as 'City of Derry' but the county could be described as both 'County Derry' and 'County Londonderry', then that would *not* be even-handed between both sides of the political divide, as well as leading to endless edits. Likewise if there were a rule that the city could be described both as 'City of Derry' and 'City of Londonderry' but the county could only be described as 'County Londonderry'. Also, the Irish and Ulster-Scots names of the city do appear at Derry and the Irish and Ulster-Scots names of the county do appear at County Londonderry. They should not appear every time that either the city or the county is mentioned - Wikipedia does not for example follow every reference to Dublin city or county with (Irish:Baile Átha Cliath). Alekksandr (talk) 17:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

It is favouring one over the other. Not everyone that searches for the city or the county will necessarily look at both. They should appear each time the the city or the county is mentioned to maintain a level of impartiality.

Regarding endless edits you’re far more likely to experience this if Wikipedia appears to favour one side of the political divide. You will always get more extreme people however that refuse to accept the the other side of the coin. Superlonghurst (talk) 17:14, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Anyone who searches for "City of Londonderry" or "Londonderry City" will be redirected to Derry. While anyone who searches for "County Derry" will be redirected to "County Londonderry". I note that you suggest that "both ... should appear each time the the city or the county is mentioned". I feel that, if e.g. Martin McGuinness' article stated that "he was second-in-command of the IRA in Derry/Londonderry," there would be many objections from "one side of the political divide". I am still at a loss as to the basis on which you suggest that the current policy "Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county", favours "one side of the political divide". I feel that the current policy attempts to avoid favouring either side of the political divide.Alekksandr (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes someone searching for Londonderry will be directed to Derry which might upset them. Likewise someone searching for County Derry will be redirected to County Londonderry which again might cause offence. There will always be objections however we live in a time of compromise. For the benefit of fairness and consistency I think it would be better if Mr McGuinness’s page showed both. I wonder

Since you’re having trouble understanding I’ll try and explain it a little clearer. By referring to the city as Derry that favours the nationalist side at the expense of the Unionists. By referring to the County as Londonderry that favours the Unionist side at the expense of the Nationists. However if it was Londonderry/Derry and County Londonderry/County Derry respectively that would be fairer.

Being fair means you have to treat everyone equally in all things the way it works at the moment is selective and divisive. That’s not how it works in N.Ireland, Wikipedia needs to catch up. Superlonghurst (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTCENSORED we're here to provide an encyclopedia, not to worry about people's feelings and I strongly doubt that anyone who would be "upset" by the choice of one name or the other will be oblivious to the fact that the alternative name exists. The current compromise is one of the most durable and well respected ones I've ever seen on Wikipedia and infinitely preferable to any stroke city alternatives. There are people who find it easy to get offended by everything, it's a hard old world, no? Valenciano (talk) 09:35, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Remember before it was County Londonderry it was mostly County Coleraine. Unlike with the city, there is no historical precedent to call the county Derry, whereas we have gone with the historical precedent when it comes to the city by using its original name and the name the city has elected to call itself internally. As a result referring to the county as Derry is purely colloquial and has had no basis in any official history or the like, unlike with the city where it's clearly more complex as it was renamed. Additionally please do not change the country in articles from Northern Ireland to Ireland or refer to it as N. Ireland, this shows a bias in your editing by attempting to diminish Northern Ireland or remove it altogether. Canterbury Tail talk 01:36, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

History is not the issue here its what the people actually living there refer to the county and the city as. There are people living in Londonderry/Derry who find it offensive that the city is only referred to at Derry. By using both names it doesn’t show a bias on Wikipedia’s part to either side. Changing Northern Ireland to N. Ireland is not diminishing the country at all. On the contrary it does the opposite, referring to it as “Northern Ireland” still causes confusion for people globally who mistake it for meaning the north of Ireland. Using N.Ireland follows an internationally recognised precedent for example N.Korea and S.Korea. Superlonghurst (talk) 01:50, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Wikipedia article pages ever refer to Northern Ireland or North Korea as N.Ireland or N.Korea. ~ Ablaze (talk) 08:56, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia probably doesn’t but it’s quite common outside of Wikipedia. Superlonghurst (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

The thing is we are on Wikipedia. Is it quite common outside of Wikipedia? I think you'd find it difficult to find a style guide that recommends N.Ireland or N.Korea or examples on websites but please prove me wrong. ~ Ablaze (talk) 06:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I dunno about style guides but it’s common here in the UK and Ireland it’s also used for major sporting events. Like I said it can cause confusion, it’s as if people don’t know that N.Ireland exists as a separate country from the rest of Ireland.

Anyway that’s a separate point to the Londonderry/Derry point I was raising. That both should be used for the city and the county. Superlonghurst (talk) 07:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Dublin University --> Trinity College Dublin

I would propose that there should be a stated recommendation that references be made to the more common name of Trinity College Dublin rather than to the University of Dublin or Dublin University. See, for example, this edit to Michael C. Latham. This is particularly relevant to biographical articles, in recounting where someone studied. Exceptions I'd envisage would be

• recipients of honorary degrees;
• references to the university structure itself;
• sports teams, where the name of the club has DU in its name; and
• references to the constituency, where the link should be to Dublin University (constituency).

Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Given the aforementioned provisos, I would be fully in support of this. Xx78900 (talk) 08:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Considering it's a pre-eminent university, and for others we frequently reference the colleges rather than the university (such as for Cambridge and Oxford) I don't see an issue with this. The fact it only has one college is neither here nor there, people study at Trinity College, not Dublin University. Canterbury Tail talk 09:18, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Same for me. This matter has troubled even members and senior officials of the University / College, and top authorities, including the courts, over more than 150 years, and most have concluded that there is little (or no) practical gap between the two, but they do have technically separate aspects. Hon. degrees are the one clear functional example, yes, and the rest - organisational structure (and appointment and internal electoral matters, and course creation) and legalities, the constituency and the clubs, are clear. I would add:

* coats of arms (and possibly other symbolic material)

* roles attached to one or the other entity, e.g. the Chancellorship and its deputies, Visitorships

On the most commonly encountered case, degrees, I think we can be firm - to all, for most purposes, these are Trinity degrees (those trying to insist on "Univ. of Dublin" just because it has "University" in it, can be disregarded), as the common name principle applies (and TCD is a university, despite all the fluffiness about UoD/DU). SeoR (talk) 09:22, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd support this too. Especially instead of Dublin University, which redirects to University of Dublin. There's a hatnote at University of Dublin for good reason: the potential confusion with UCD and DCU. Also, use of Trinity College Dublin in biographical articles is consistent with Category:Alumni of Trinity College Dublin, as Michael C. Latham is now. An interesting article is Francis O'Reilly: all three forms are used, as he was a graduate, chancellor and honorary degree recipient! Declangi (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, "DU" is a bit of an invention - if it's anything, it's "University of Dublin". But in the famous Reid judgment, the conclusion of the Master of the Rolls was pretty clear "...There was no separate incorporation of [the University]. If there had been, it must have been by Royal Charter ... There was no express creation of it apart from the College. The College had the power of electing the Chancellor and the other officers, and of defining and determining the conferring of degrees. The College was supreme, and the University was a branch or department of it, if indeed the College itself was not more acourately the University." So the whole University limited structure is really more of a Victorian confection put around the real ancient TCD. SeoR (talk) 09:35, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Did not know they had separate Arms. But on the law, I'll up the ante: the Acts of Union referenced this way, when it came to the 100 seats for Ireland at Westminster 'two for eaoh county in Ireland, two for the city of Dublin, two for the city of Cork, one for the University of Trinity College, and one for each of the most considerable cities, towns, and boroughs'. Aside from the wonderful vagueness, the giving of the same number of MPs to Dublin and Cork, and those in turn having just one more than, say, Portlaoise, or Trinity, it's a pretty telling description of the University, no?217.75.5.42 (talk) 09:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

And now that TUD is a thing... Wish Dublin had been more varied in its choice of letters. TCD, UCD, DCU, TUD, DU... at least BIMM, RCSI, and NCAD are distinct. Xx78900 (talk) 14:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)