Talk:Berbers
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Berbers article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
Berbers was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Part of the content of the "History of Punic-era Tunisia: chronology" article was merged into Berbers on 16 March 2016. That page and its contribution history for attribution purposes is now located here. |
Dispute over the lead section
@Skitash: First of all, it has nothing to do in the lead/summary section about an ethnic group. If you want to expand on the subject, do it in the "Languages" section. Secondly, there is literally no source for the statement " Arabic incredibly influenced Berber languages". To claim that Berber languages are incredibly influenced by Arabic is not only false but also propaganda. There a hundreds of Berber languages and dialects, you can't make such a claim and doing a generalization. If so, you also have to talk about how some languages were influenced by Spanish, French and how on the contrary some others got limited exposure to outside influences. If not, it's misleading to people who have no clue about this matter. That's why if you want to include this part you have to do it elsewhere than in the summary section cause it's too complex and too long. Lolamelody123456
- @Lolamelody123456: This is completely relevant to the lead section. Every Wikipedia page about demographics or ethnic groups mentions the language associated with that group in the lead section. Take a look at French people or Italians. Language is essential in defining ethnic groups and their identity, and in the case of Berbers, this is the unifying factor among the diverse Berber ethnic groups. I did not specifically say that all Berber languages are influenced by Arabic but generally a significant influence of Arabic can be found in most Berber languages, including the main ones, and I can easily find several sources supporting this. Arabic obviously has a much greater influence on Berber languages than Spanish and French, which had more recent impacts. It is true that this belongs in the Language section but it is necessary to include a summary in the lead section. Skitash (talk) 15:05, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- I partly agree with Lolamelody123456 (though there's some unnecessary polemic wording here), in that I don't think mentioning Arabic vocabulary influence is necessary to a summary, and new information does indeed belong in the body of the article rather than the lead. Vocabulary borrowing is also only one measure of influence among other, arguably more important grammatical dimensions, and these questions would require some linguistics background that wouldn't fit well in a lead summary.
- There is already a relevant and brief intro to Berber languages at the end of the current lead, mentioning the language family. A more useful expansion of the language section might be to mention the different (proposed) branches of the Berber language family, and this in turn could be summarized in the lead, to give a sense of the linguistic diversity, which is what is done in some of the similar articles mentioned by Skitash above. R Prazeres (talk) 16:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with your viewpoint. Expanding the language section to mention the different branches of the Berber language family would be a useful addition, although I still believe that foreign influences should be included in the lead. Berber languages indeed show significant influence from Arabic, and therefore this influence is substantial enough to be included in the lead section. As evident in the page about Iraqis, foreign influences on their dialect are mentioned in the lead summary. Skitash (talk) 18:19, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Lolamelody123456, I'm just checking if you have a connection to either of these edits: [1], [2]? R Prazeres (talk) 20:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- Faced with such massive changes, I made the decision to go back to the version before May 19, to avoid continuing vandalism and an edit war. Such in-depth modifications, especially when they are motivated by political or memorial issues, must be validated by consensus of Wikipedians. AgisdeSparte (talk) 21:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, if this is the way it's going to be, then return to a more stable version. I'm just noting here that I manually restored my edit to the "Languages" section ([3]), as I was replacing unsourced content there and it should be independent of the dispute about the lead, though it occurred at the same time. R Prazeres (talk) 21:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- It appears that the mass reverts being made are the result of the actions of a long-term vandalizing IP range. Both ranges have been blocked now. [4][5] Skitash (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- @R Prazeres @Ponyo Now that the vandalous IP is banned, I would like to inquire if it is permissible for me to restore my edit. It is worth noting that my edit consisted of widely accepted viewpoints supported by multiple credible sources with no intentions of promoting "propaganda". Skitash (talk) 21:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- My block of the IP was strictly an admin action. I have no input regarding content in this dispute.-- Ponyobons mots 22:01, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- Skitash, I'm fine with you restoring your edits. There may (or may not) be some wording that can be improved to be less provocative, or perhaps things that can be added or moved around for balance, but that can be done after as needed. I don't feel there was any issue with the content itself; indeed, it's mostly things that are well-known in reliable sources. R Prazeres (talk) 23:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- PS: Though, like I said earlier, I feel the language "influence" stuff should stay in the Languages section, as I think we had agreed for the moment. R Prazeres (talk) 00:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Very well, thanks for the feedback. Skitash (talk) 01:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- I've made some adjustments here. Mostly, I removed a statement that was repeated right below in the "Name" section, which is unnecessary for the lead since it should be a summary. I've also made minor wording adjustments that I think retain the accuracy but diminish any potentially provocative tone. And I've added a brief mention of the present-day movement for Berber identity, which needs to be mentioned both for general context and to balance out the multiple statements about their historical lack of collective identity. R Prazeres (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- Very well, thanks for the feedback. Skitash (talk) 01:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- @R Prazeres @Ponyo Now that the vandalous IP is banned, I would like to inquire if it is permissible for me to restore my edit. It is worth noting that my edit consisted of widely accepted viewpoints supported by multiple credible sources with no intentions of promoting "propaganda". Skitash (talk) 21:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- It appears that the mass reverts being made are the result of the actions of a long-term vandalizing IP range. Both ranges have been blocked now. [4][5] Skitash (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, if this is the way it's going to be, then return to a more stable version. I'm just noting here that I manually restored my edit to the "Languages" section ([3]), as I was replacing unsourced content there and it should be independent of the dispute about the lead, though it occurred at the same time. R Prazeres (talk) 21:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- It wasn’t me. Lolamelody123456 (talk) 21:21, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
“Unintelligible”??
Saying that their language is “unintelligible” hits very wrong. 2603:6081:C000:47:45B2:337C:5C63:AA55 (talk) 12:18, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- You're leaving out the word mutually. "Mutually unintelligible" is an accurate, commonly used description for such comparisons. See the WP article Mutual intelligibility. Its says, for example, "... British Sign Language (BSL) and American Sign Language (ASL) are quite different and mutually unintelligible, even though the hearing people of the United Kingdom and the United States share the same spoken language." Carlstak (talk) 15:31, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
The term “Berber”
I’m an Amazigh person and I find the predominant use of the word “berber” to describe Amazigh/Imazighen to be offensive, and misleading. Seeing as how the word stems from the french word for barbarians/barbarism. Personally, it makes this page a hard read. Sittingonthecouch (talk) 06:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- See the posts on this page and in the archives on why "berber" is still in use. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:40, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- And please, be aware of the fact that your feelings don't represent all Berber people's feelings. The vast majority of Berbers (myself included) don't consider this word offensive. On the contrary the French term "berbère" is widely used colloquially. --Syphax98 (talk) 21:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
- It has little to do with my own feelings (although I do find "Berber(s)" preferable to the uneuphonious and irregular "Amazigh"/ "Imazighen"), but with what usage is current in sources dealing with the subject, as the talk discussions should make clear. It is the people coming here to complain about how their feelings are hurt by what is still current usage who are letting their personal feelings dictate what should be in this article. Dhtwiki (talk) 04:22, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
- I was not referring to you @Dhtwiki:! Actually I agree with you! I was referring to Sittingonthecouch! --Syphax98 (talk) 08:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
- OK. You could have made that more obvious by not indenting your post past mine, which implies a reply to what I said (also by using one of several ping templates, as you just did). Dhtwiki (talk) 23:17, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
- I was not referring to you @Dhtwiki:! Actually I agree with you! I was referring to Sittingonthecouch! --Syphax98 (talk) 08:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
- It has little to do with my own feelings (although I do find "Berber(s)" preferable to the uneuphonious and irregular "Amazigh"/ "Imazighen"), but with what usage is current in sources dealing with the subject, as the talk discussions should make clear. It is the people coming here to complain about how their feelings are hurt by what is still current usage who are letting their personal feelings dictate what should be in this article. Dhtwiki (talk) 04:22, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
- And please, be aware of the fact that your feelings don't represent all Berber people's feelings. The vast majority of Berbers (myself included) don't consider this word offensive. On the contrary the French term "berbère" is widely used colloquially. --Syphax98 (talk) 21:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Notable people, Islamic section
Discussion with a sock and a disruptive IP |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
"Notable Berbers" section
Speaking of the "Notable Berbers" section, is this section as a whole really warranted? I've had a cursory look at various other ethnicity/nationality-type articles and pratically none of them have a similar section. Some of them include a link to a dedicated list article, which we also have here already (List of Berber people). It seems like a futile and arbitrary exercise to try to list "notable" persons that happen to be of Berber origin, not to mention unnecessary to include a short (usually unsourced) bio for each of them. We clearly can't list all of them and it's unclear why some would be mentioned and not others, aside from all the potential verifiability and POV issues. The most important persons are already mentioned, or can be mentioned, in other sections like history, culture, etc. The rest just seems tangential to the article's main topic. Thoughts? R Prazeres (talk) 19:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. The sentences in that section are not only brief and unnecessary, but the section is also filled with WP:OR. It seems that no other ethnicity-related page features a notable people section. Skitash (talk) 09:38, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 18 December 2023
It has been proposed in this section that Berbers be renamed and moved to Berber peoples. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
Berbers → Berber peoples – When a group of peoples and the languages they speak have the same name, it is convention to use "name peoples" and "name languages". Here are a few of many examples:
- "Germanic peoples" and "Germanic languages"
- "Austronesian peoples" and "Austronesian languages"
- "Mongolic peoples" and "Mongolic languages"
Move per WP:CONSISTENT. WP:PRECISE also applies because the Berbers are a group of peoples, not a single people. – Treetoes023 (talk) 15:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose I don't see why the Berbers should be compared to the Germanic peoples when comparing them to the Germans, the Arabs, the Kurds, the Persians, etc, would make more sense. M.Bitton (talk) 16:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Berbers are a group of peoples, the difference is that Germans, Arabs, etc., are a group of people. The Berbers would probably best be compared to the Sámi peoples. The Berbers are a much more diverse grouping than Germans or Arabs. – Treetoes023 (talk) 17:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- I wish things (regarding every single one of them) were that simple. M.Bitton (talk) 17:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Berbers are a group of peoples, the difference is that Germans, Arabs, etc., are a group of people. The Berbers would probably best be compared to the Sámi peoples. The Berbers are a much more diverse grouping than Germans or Arabs. – Treetoes023 (talk) 17:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Usage of the term "Berbers" is common enough. "Berber peoples" is unusual and merely adds awkwardness. Seems like a fix looking for a problem. Walrasiad (talk) 17:31, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: I don't think "[...] peoples" is a convention so much as it's usually a result of grammar and disambiguation needs. The examples you mentioned (and others like Turkic peoples, Indigenous peoples, Chinese people, etc) involve adjectives rather than nouns (one can't say "Germanics"), so naturally we need "peoples" after. By contrast, Arabs, Kurds, Nubians, Punjabis, etc are all nouns. "Austronesian", like Indo-European, is primarily a term to designate a language family classification, and I don't believe "Austronesian(s)" is used as a noun ([6]). In other cases, Iranian peoples is to differentiate from Persians/Iranians, Mongolic peoples is different from Mongols, etc. R Prazeres (talk) 18:05, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Delisted good articles
- C-Class Ethnic groups articles
- High-importance Ethnic groups articles
- Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment
- WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
- C-Class Berbers articles
- Top-importance Berbers articles
- WikiProject Berbers articles
- C-Class Africa articles
- Top-importance Africa articles
- C-Class Burkina Faso articles
- Top-importance Burkina Faso articles
- WikiProject Burkina Faso articles
- C-Class Libya articles
- Top-importance Libya articles
- WikiProject Libya articles
- C-Class Mali articles
- Top-importance Mali articles
- WikiProject Mali articles
- C-Class Mauritania articles
- Top-importance Mauritania articles
- WikiProject Mauritania articles
- C-Class Niger articles
- High-importance Niger articles
- WikiProject Niger articles
- C-Class Tunisia articles
- Top-importance Tunisia articles
- WikiProject Tunisia articles
- C-Class Western Sahara articles
- Top-importance Western Sahara articles
- WikiProject Western Sahara articles
- WikiProject Africa articles
- C-Class Morocco articles
- Top-importance Morocco articles
- High-importance Tunisia articles
- C-Class Egypt articles
- Low-importance Egypt articles
- WikiProject Egypt articles
- C-Class Algeria articles
- Top-importance Algeria articles
- WikiProject Algeria articles
- Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors
- Requested moves