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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Miximon (talk | contribs) at 18:48, 30 January 2024 (Assessment: banner shell, Biography, +Indian caste system (Rater)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The name

The name should be Jyotirao Phule, in line with naming conventions. The Mahatma bit is a title, sometimes given, and not so widely used in his case. Imc 10:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the follwoing section from the article to the talk page because it is not appropriate for the namespace article:

Mahatma Phune's name was 'Jotiba'. Marathi: जोतीबा. (Neither जोतिबा, nor ज्योतीबा; it is sans any 'y'), but is often misspelt 'Jyotiba'. And the i-kaar in it is deergh. But it is rendered hrasva when a pratyay attaches to the name; hence 'जोतिबांचे (जोतीबांचे नाही) कार्य'.

Ganesh Dhamodkar (Talk) 04:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ganesh Dhamodkar and Tejas Shall we restart this conversation of 'the Name'. The name has to be changed to "Jotirao Phule". Also Mahatma is used widely in his case. We can see that in all schemes that the Maharashtra government has launched as in Mahatma Jotirao Phule Shetkari Karjmukti Yojana, and Mahatma Jotiba Phule Jan Arogya Yojana. -- Hemalataeditor (talk) 04:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree, Hemalataeditor The Y from the first name needs to be removed. The acceptable spelling is Jotirao, not Jyotirao. The first biographer of Phule in English Dhananjay Keer used this spelling, so did P G Patil when he translated Phule's works to English for Maharashtra government on Phule's death centennial in 1990. Even the LeftWord edition edited by G P Deshpande (2002) uses Jotirao. The two foremost scholars on caste in Maharashtra, Gail Omvedt and Rosalind O'hanlon also use Jotirao, not Jyotirao. Tejas Harad (Talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:22, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Even Phule used Jotirao in the English title page of his book 'Gulamgiri'. I will try to move the page. Hope there is no trouble. H tejas (talk) 04:45, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Tejas. Ganesh (talk) 06:30, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

When I did a Google scholar search, there were more hits with Jotirao than Jyotirao.That being the case, I believe the title should be changed to Jotirao Phule. Perhaps Jyotirao , Jotiba and Jyotiba can be stated as alternate names. Since Mahatma is an honorific, we can not use it in the title.The title and how it was conferred is mentioned in the article which should be sufficient. Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 14:56, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I tried changing the name but couldn't because the pages Jotirao Phule or Jotirao Govindrao Phule already exist with redirect to Jyotirao Phule. We shall have to ask an administrator to help. thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 15:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is really frustrating to see people use a variety of spellings for Phule's first name. All the scholars who have engaged with Phule extensively, such as Dhananjay Keer, Gail Omvedt, Rosalind O'hanlon, G P Deshpande, have used 'Jotirao'. Maharashtra government too followed this spelling when it published translations of Phule's works in 1991. G P Deshpande actually has a discussion on Phule's name in his introduction to 'Selected Writings of Jotirao Phule' where he argues that the name must be spelled as 'Jotirao Phule'. The introduction to the first edition of Phule's collected works also says that Phule always wrote his name in Marathi as 'जोतीराव', not 'ज्योतीराव' or 'ज्योतिबा'. It is high time this page starts using this standardised spelling for Phule. H tejas (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:56, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Have filed a Technical move request here, after going through the advice in the Redirect and Move help pages, particularly this. Sdsouza (talk) 07:40, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

I would like to add the following content to the Introduction section

Jyotirao Govindrao Phule (Marathi : ) was an activist, thinker, social reformer and revolutionary from Maharashtra in the nineteenth century. His remarkable influence was apparent in fields like education, agriculture, caste system, women and widow upliftment and removal of untouchability. He is most known in society for his efforts to educate women and the lower castes. He, after educating his wife, opened the first school for girls in India in August 1848.

In September, 1873, Jyotirao, along with this followers, formed the 'Satya Shodhak Samaj' (Society of Seekers of Truth) with Jyotirao as its first president and treasurer. The main objective of the organisation was to liberate the Shudras and Ati Shudras and to prevent their exploitation by the Brahmins.

For his fight to attain equal rights for peasants and the lower caste and his contribution to the field of education he is regarded as one of the most important figure in social reform movement in Maharashtra.


Objections, if any, can be discussed. (Flewovercuckoo 13:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Go ahead, be bold. If it is possible to cite some reliable sources then it would be appericiable. Shyam (T/C) 20:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality of section Religion

Phule was definately born as a Hindu, but all of his life he fought against the caste system and other evils of hinduism. Later in his life he quitted hinduism and founded Satyashodhak Samaj, which he stated as a new religion denying hinduism. His samaj was Monotheist and not worshipping multiple gods as in hinduism. Ganesh Dhamodkar (Talk) 05:26, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with everything except the last part. Yes, Phule was not a Hindu. Those who he think he was have not read beyond the first few pages of Phule's works. He launched a vitriloic attack on the Vedas. He welcomed Christian missionaries . Some editors are unsuccessfuly trying to link him with Bhakti movement. Again these editors have not done their home work on either Phule or Bhakti schools. Bhakti movement was started by Sri Ramanujam in South India, who was a liberal Brahmin but affirmed the sanctity of Vedas. No Bhakti saint ever attacked the scriptural foundation of Hinduism. Phule did that and thus went outside Hinduism. He was clearly not a Hindu but an apostate.--Internet Scholar (talk) 00:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


User 136.159.248.217 is using a non-reliable website which contains a lot of unsourced and self-contradictory information, and other disputed content, to support the view that Phule was a 'Bhakti' saint. Is there a reliable scholary source which says that Phule belonged to Bhakti school? How can somebody who attacks the very basis of Hinduism like Vedas be regarded as a product of Bhakti movement? Please explain this contradiction using scholarly sources (not personal opinions). None of the Bhakti saints like Ramanand, Chaitanya, Mira, etc ever questioned the sanctity or authority vedas. It is axiomatic that person who attacks the very basis of a faith cannot be regarded as part of that faith.

The content of Religion section is going to be watched frequently now and if that that disputable non-scholarly website (stating Phule was a Bhakti saint) is quoted again, please rest assured that it is going to be challenged and deleted as many times it is posted. Somebody's best chance to retain the reference to Phule as a Bhakti saint is to find a reliable secondary source from an academic-grade publication, with exact page number , quote, year of publication and the name of the publishing company. Kindly co-operate. Thanks.--Internet Scholar (talk) 16:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For those who wish to read Phule's own writings, they are now available on the web. They are quite interesting to read. I am not aware of English translations, please let us know if you are aware of them.

Malaiya (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

His English translations:

The article mentions that Phule introduced the Marathi word Dalit. I have not come across this word in his writings at all. On what primary evidence has this assertion been made? H tejas (talk) 07:53, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Citation about Phule's rejection of Varkari/Bhakti movement from reliable secondary source

The quotation below should put to rest all insinuation that Phule had anything to do with Bhakti movement.

"Phule had rejected the poet-saints as ritualistic, self-deprecating, renunciators who were against "this-worldly" orientation. In the absence of a direct dialogue with the masses for whom he cared and on whose behalf he spoke Phule was not able to come to grips with the dialectic of tradition of which Varkari poets had continued to be a source of consolation without inspiring the poor to rise, politically, against oppression. He went to the extent of rejecting the title of the abhang for his poetic form because it was mainly used by Varkari poets. In this total rejection of Varkari impulse based on conventional interpretations of Varkari texts and practices, he foreshadowed the interpretation of bhakti and chitvilas that Tilak later used in his debate against Ranade's intellectuals."

Source: Language and Society: Steps Towards an Integrated Theory, By Jayant Lele, R. Singh, Contributor R. Singh, Published by BRILL, 1989, ISBN 9004087893, 9789004087897


Its preposterous to state that such an anti-Vedic and anti-Varkari thinker like Phule could have anything to do with Bhakti movement. To make such an assertion is distortion of both Bhakti school and Mr. Phule's lifetime's works.

Here is a link from reliable source about the unity of Varkari and Bhakti movement:

Vitthalas (Varkari Panth)
"The cult of Vitthala is part of the bhakti devotional movement. Its deity, Vitthala or Vithoba, was originally a Kannada hero in the south of Maharashtra around whom a cult developed. The cult was pastoral and so was assimilated with Krishna. Therefore the Vitthalas are a Vaishnavite bhakti cult.

The bhakti devotional doctrine of the Vitthalas is based on a succession of writers and poets. First is Jnanesvara with many devotional hymns and a commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. He is followed by poets that wrote in Marathi. Namdev's poetry tells of a deity who is everywhere and accessible to everyone. All that is needed is to love him and sing his name. You do not have to practise austerities and renunciation, meditate on the absolute, or go on pilgrimages. Vitthala is a transcendent god of such breadth he is identified with Brahman."

Source: http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/vitt.html

Needless to say, the person who claims that Phule was in the tradition of Maharashtrian bhakti saints like Namdev, Eknath, et al is arguing out of total ignorance of all. thanks. --Internet Scholar (talk) 17:39, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Education

Phule also ran a hostel for students. We need to mention that. H tejas (talk) 07:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

User 136.159.248.217 is continuously using unsourced assertions and deleting well sourced edits (from reliable secondary sources). I don't have a lot of time to spend on this page but I am alerting other neutral editors to take a note and prevent the vandalism. Thanks.--Internet Scholar (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am placing well-sourced content below which he is seeking to suppress. Please repost it after attempting a discussion if this article is vandalized again. Thanks.--Internet Scholar (talk) 21:14, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Attack on the sanctity of Vedas

Jyotirao Phule's critique of the caste system began with his attack on the Vedas, the most fundamental texts of Hinduism. He considered Vedas as 'idle fantasies' as 'palpably absurd legends'. He considered Vedas a 'form of false consciousness'. [1]

Alternate religion

Though his akhandas were based on the abhangs of Hindu saint Tukaram[2], the attack on the Vedas, the most fundamental source of Hindu canon, precludes any connection with Bhakti movement which questioned corrupt Brahmin clergy but still recognized Vedas or other Hindu texts such as Bhagvad Gita , etc as true revelations. In fact Phule went on to explicitly reject any connection with the poet-saints of Varkari tradition [3] which was very much a part of Bhakti movement . [4]

As opposed to rekindling of devotional aspects of Hindu scriptures, as advocated by Bhakti poet-saints, Phule instead called for creation of an alternate theocracy.[3] In this new parallel faith he coined a new name for God as 'Nirmik' rougly translating as 'Creator'. [5]

Dubious Reference

User 136.159.248.217 has done his best to push Phule as a bhakti saint and the best source for this assertion he has been able to find is the following website which contains a lot of nonsense and contradictory information:

http://www.sainistar.com/saini-info/demography/mali_saini.htm

The same website also makes ludicrous claims that Gautam Buddha, Lord Krishna Chandragupta Maurya, Sanjeeva Reddy et al were all Malis and hence related with Phule:

http://www.sainistar.com/saini-info/gallery.htm

This website contains a lot of other unsourced, libelous and self-contradictory content and provides no sources. This website does not qualify wikipedia's Sources standard and thus should not be permitted to be cited anywhere to argue for or against any position. Refer to the ruleWikipedia:Reliable sources (WP:RS) Thanks.--Internet Scholar (talk) 19:20, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Aryans, Jews, Brahmins: Theorizing Authority Through Myths of Identity, pp 149, By Dorothy Matilda Figueira, Published by SUNY Press, 2002
  2. ^ Culture And The Making Of Identity In Contemporary India By Kamala Ganesh, Usha Thakkar
  3. ^ a b "In this program Phule included the creation of parallel theocracy which Shahu and other Maratha elites expoited to their own advantage.....Phule had rejected the poet-saints as ritualistic, self-deprecating, renunciators who were against "this-worldly" orientation. In the absence of a direct dialogue with the masses for whom he cared and on whose behalf he spoke Phule was not able to come to grips with the dialectic of tradition of which Varkari poets had continued to be a source of consolation without inspiring the poor to rise, politically, against oppression. He went to the extent of rejecting the title of the abhang for his poetic form because it was mainly used by Varkari poets. In this total rejection of Varkari impulse based on conventional interpretations of Varkari texts and practices, he foreshadowed the interpretation of bhakti and chitvilas that Tilak later used in his debate against Ranade's intellectuals." Language and Society: Steps Towards an Integrated Theory, pp 41, By Jayant Lele, R. Singh, Contributor R. Singh, Published by BRILL, 1989, ISBN 9004087893, 9789004087897
  4. ^ " Therefore the Vitthalas are a Vaishnavite bhakti cult. The bhakti devotional doctrine of the Vitthalas is based on a succession of writers and poets...Though Namdev wrote that pilgrimage is not necessary, an annual pilgrimage to Pandharpur is a central part of the practice of the cult, with devotional singing of hymns and prayers on behalf of Tukaram to Vitthala. The importance of pilgrimage is reflected in the cult also being called Varkari Panth, 'pilgrim's path'." source: http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/vitt.html
  5. ^ "He creates an alternative religious practice for the varna-proletriat. He coins a new word for God. He translates the word as Nirmik (the creator)." Political Ideas in Modern India: Thematic Explorations, pp 113, By Vrajendra Raj Mehta, Thomas Pantham, Project of History of Indian Science, Philosophy, and Culture, Published by SAGE, 2006, ISBN 0761934200, 9780761934202

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Year of Publication of books

The article says, the book Shetkarayacha Asude was published in July 1881, whereas a website on Mahatma Phule (http://www.mahatmaphule.com/literature.html) says it was published in 1883. Which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indiansecularist (talk • contribs) 01:27, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Schools

What happened to schools founded by the Phules. Are they still in existence ? Who were the students at Savitribai Phule's school. was it open to girls from all castes ? How big were the schools and the student number ? Jonathansammy (talk) 18:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am even unable to find the name of the school; if at all there was any. The couple had many schools for girls and untouchables in and around Pune.ref1 ref2 ref3. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. There does not seem to be much documented about Jyotirao and her life. It seems that the Anath Ashram catered for Brahmin widows. Did widows in the Mali and Maratha communities remarry and therefore did not need this service ? Did Jyotirao have any descendants? If yes, where are they ? What happened to the girls who went to the schools run by Savitribai ? Did any alumna make make a name for herself ?Jonathansammy (talk) 20:59, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Article Quality

I am appalled by the quality of this article and that on Savitribai. Since the couple have been honored by the University of Pune on so many different levels, I would have thought that the people at that University would have taken the lead in improving the articles.Jonathansammy (talk) 15:20, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Article quality ia average. Jyotirao Fule was against the myths and traditions in Hindu religion and not against the Hinduism. He was attacked by Hindu Puritans for going against traditions. Humanity 16:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Save humanity (talk • contribs)

Lead - Removal

I see @Sitush: removing properly sourced content from lead giving the reason that no discussion in the body. Okay, I agree. But why does user has to let unsourced and non- NPOV content which is neither discussed in the body, allow to stay? (If it is an oversight while undoing my 'good faith edits', please do not bother) ABTalk 05:21, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is an oversight. Stop assuming bad faith - you are doing it far too much, here and elsewhere. It was, however, tagged by someone. - Sitush (talk) 05:23, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. ABTalk 05:39, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Arbritrary heading

This is not clear that the mali caste is of sudra varna ,so please atleast remove this word,thank you. Pavan patel (talk) 18:53, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We have to work off what reliable sources say. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Satyashodhak Samaj

The information about Satyashodhak Samaj is too little. The two annual reports published by the organisation in 1870s can be looked at to get more details. Even the work of Sriram Gundekar and Gail Omvedt will be useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by H tejas (talk • contribs) 08:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:37, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move Page to Jotirao Phule

Reviving the discussion on correcting the spelling of Phule's first name to Jotirao rather than Jyotirao. His collected works, as published in 1991 by the Education Department of the Government of Maharashtra, and his own book Gulamgiri (Slavery), published in 1873, render his name as Jotirao rather than Jyotirao. Sdsouza (talk) 10:00, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even in Marathi, Phule always wrote his name as 'जोतीराव' and never 'ज्योतीराव' or 'ज्योतिबा'. Check his collected works published by Maharashtra government: महात्मा फुले समग्र वाङ्मय. Please also see G P Deshpande's discussion of his name in Deshpande's introduction to 'Selected Writings of Jotirao Phule'. H tejas (talk) 11:23, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with H tejas. Jotirao himself used the spelling Jotirao. I support the move to Jotirao Phule. GD (talk) 05:31, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I agree. There are slightly more instances of authors using Jotirao than Jyotirao in scholarly publications.Let me see how the redirect can be done in the "reverse" direction. Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 14:20, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aryan invasion

Abhishek0831996, can you please explain your addition of "now-discredited" as a descriptor of the Aryan invasion theory? Vanamonde (Talk) 12:33, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: The source is clear about it. It has used the term "Aryan myth" a dozen times to describe it and notes on page 153 that "fictional model of the Aryan addressed a variety of psychological and political needs." It cites supports views of Thapar who discards any happening of an invasion. Also see the review by Bhatia to know how the text is supposed to be viewed as.  Abhishek0831996 (talk) 16:01, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's reasonable; the trouble is your phrasing implies, even if unintentionally, that the entire linked Indo-Aryan migration has been discredited, which is quite incorrect; it's the idea of a bloody conquest by a single racial group that's been abandoned, even as the idea of large-scale population transfer has been repeatedly confirmed. I think we need to find a way to convey that nuance without the problematic implication. I would suggest a much more detailed footnote summarizing, with sources if necessary, the relevant section of Indo-Aryan migrations. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Birth date

This article included the date of Phule's birth as 11 April 1827, but I'm struggling to find support among reliable sources for this; those media sources that include a DOB all are more recent, AFAICS, than the inclusion of the date on Wikipedia. If any watchers know of a good source, I would appreciate the information. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:12, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

History

Juotirao phule's contribution? 2405:205:85:BBC0:0:0:747:60A4 (talk) 01:47, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mahatma Phule

Jyotirao Govindrao Phule, also known as Mahatma Jyotiba Phule (11 April 1827 – 28 November 1890) was an Indian social activist, thinker, anti-caste social reformer and writer from Maharashtra.[2][3] His work extended to many fields, including eradication of untouchability and the caste system and for his efforts in educating women and oppressed caste people.[4] He and his wife, Savitribai Phule, were pioneers of women's education in India.[4][5] Phule started his first school for girls in 1848 in Pune at Tatyasaheb Bhide's residence or Bhidewada.[6] He, along with his followers, formed the Satyashodhak Samaj (Society of Truth Seekers) to attain equal rights for people from lower castes. People from all religions and castes could become a part of this association which worked for the upliftment of the oppressed classes. Phule is regarded as an important figure in the social reform movement in Maharashtra. He was bestowed with honorific Mahātmā (Sanskrit: "great-souled", "venerable") title by Maharashtrian social activist Vithalrao Krishnaji Vandekar in 1888.[7][8]

Mahātmā Jyotirao Phule 42.107.133.194 (talk) 13:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Refrain from writing non notable books in info box.

Shetkaryancha Asud, Brahamananche Kasab and Gulamgiri are well known books of Jyotiba, so don't add lesser known here. Detail literary work are available in below sections. Rock Stone Gold Castle (talk) 07:51, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should we rename this article?

In Maharashtra, he was commonly known as Jyotiba Phule not Jyotirao Phule and during his times his fellow people use to call him Jyoti not with long name Jyotirao. We should mention it in the article.Rock Stone Gold Castle (talk) 07:41, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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