Talk:Genesis flood narrative

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Q: Why does this page refer to The Flood as a "myth"?

A: The term myth is used here in its academic sense, meaning "a traditional story consisting of events that are ostensibly historical, though often supernatural, explaining the origins of a cultural practice or natural phenomenon." It is not being used to mean "something that is false".

Q: Why doesn't this page focus more on the creationist point of view?

A: On topics of theology and mythology, Wikipedia is largely focused on what can be demonstrated based on a consensus of peer-reviewed academic papers. As this article notes, many mainstream scholars dispute that The Flood actually occurred. Wikipedia is neutral, but we also believe in "not giv[ing] minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects," where minority views refers to views found in a minority of reliable sources.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 29 January 2014 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for merging with Noah's Ark on 31 January 2014. The result of the discussion was not merge.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Noah's Ark was copied or moved into Genesis flood narrative with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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Did God promise to never destroy life again?

In Genesis 8:21, I read: "and the Lord said in his heart ... neither will I again smite every thing living" (emphasis added). In original Hebrew, I read: "va-yomer Yehova el-libo," i.e. "Jehovah said to his heart." I see no promise and no "covenant with Noah." God DECIDED to never destroy life again. This is different from promising -- decisions are in no way binding and can be reversed unilaterally. I suggest editing the article accordingly:

1. "God made a covenant with Noah that man would be allowed to eat every living thing but not its blood, and God decided to never again destroy all life."

2. In the Sources table: "God smells sweet aroma, decides not to destroy again." DenisProf (talk) 21:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A reliable source would be required to discuss such nuance compared to other scholarly perspectives on the text. TNstingray (talk) 22:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of this article, as its name conveys, is to represent the narrative in the Book of Genesis accurately. I cited that very narrative, in the original language and in an English translation. The original source supersedes any "scholarly perspective" or interpretation. The table already cites the source (Genesis 8:21). The same source can be cited elsewhere if necessary. DenisProf (talk) 00:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's incorrect. The Bible is a primary source "suitable for attributed, relevant quotes", but not for content that "interprets or summarizes scriptural passages". The latter must be "be cited to appropriate scholarly sources". The quotes are from Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. HiLo48 (talk) 02:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, since the Bible can be interpreted in thousands of ways. As Bart Ehrman argued, if you seek to find the Trinity in Genesis chapter 1, you will find it there. But that says more about you than about the Bible. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for referring me to the policy. As long as the policy is in place, you are correct that, as sources, scholarly texts trump scriptural texts. However, it strikes me as bad policy that, for summarizing scriptural narratives, any secondary sources should be privileged over the original. My suggestion is to switch from interpretation to the uninterpreted original (not to offer a self-researched interpretation.) This must be a switch toward a more reliable source. DenisProf (talk) 21:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@DenisProf Policy allows us to quote the Bible when appropriate, but then you may have an argument about which translation to quote. The trouble with quoting Hebrew and Greek texts is that people with no credentials will argue about what it means, and the few of us who have actually studied those languages can't pull rank because Wikipedia doesn't work that way. So you do need a respected scholar to have already said the thing you want to put in here. But that shouldn't be difficult, as there are great scholarly commentaries. Try the International Critical Commentary on Genesis by Skinner, or the SCM one by von Rad, and you will find reliable explanations verse by verse. If what you are saying is right, you will find your source there. Doric Loon (talk) 08:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Read wp:or, how do RS translate it? Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Global" flood

The Hebrew text does not speak of a global flood, it speaks of "the ground" (הָֽאֲדָמָ֔ה)(6:7) and "the land" (הָאָֽרֶץ)(6:13,17; 7:3,4,10). In the context, the most that can be said is that this indicates the world known to Noah, which most likely would have been confined to the Mesopotamian basin. All my reference works are in storage, so I can't provide citations as I would like, but I suggest that the section be rewritten because "global" is an inference, not something drawn from the text. Dismalscholar (talk) 19:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's very strongly believed. In popular culture, every mention of Noah's flood seems to automatically include the word "global". Logically it would obviously have only been the world known to Noah, but it's grown and is now part of dogma. HiLo48 (talk) 22:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While we value your insight, this would currently be an example of original research, which is not suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia mainspace. If you find reliable sourcing, it would be worth mentioning as one of many scholarly perspectives on the text. TNstingray (talk) 12:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, it should be global, or else why would Noah bring birds? It also says it destroyed "all flesh", it covered the "highest mountains" and the sheer size of the Ark is enough to tell us that it's likely it's referring to a global flood. That's what I think, but it could be different. 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 22:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't built upon how you think, or how I think, but upon citing WP:RS. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This page doesn't exist anymore:

Isaak, Mark (2007). The Counter-Creationism Handbook. University of California Press.

It's also not written from a neutral point of view. I just suggest removing that paragraph. 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 22:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV does not mean what you think it means. In this case it means WP:GEVAL and WP:PSCI. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok there, I kept the ideas but changed the vocabulary of ONE WORD to make it sound more neutral. 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 22:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removing "pseudoscientific" is not allowed. See WP:PSCI. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how that is. It just says not to give the idea undue weight, not anything about the word "pseudoscientific". 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 23:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care about your motivation to perform tendentious editing. The WP:RULES of Wikipedia will be enforced, whether you like it or not. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is controversial. Apparently you don't think so, but it's mentioned up there at the top of the page. I really don't see how this is tendentious editing, as the main ideas are still the same. My editing had to do with the RULES already. You haven't explained how the rules have anything to do with the word "pseudoscientific" itself. The RULES are barely there with the original paragraph. I'm just making it so it FOLLOWS THE RULES MORE. As in ENFORCING THE RULES. (did you even read all the text before?) I don't see how this is "tendentious editing", the original paragraph was biased in the first place, and I just kept the IDEAS the same. The IDEAS are important. I would call this edit "fixing vocabulary". 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 23:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2024

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Change "The Genesis flood narrative (chapters 6–9 of the Book of Genesis) is a Hebrew flood myth.", as for many, the Genesis flood is not a myth. This applies to all statements regarding the Genesis "myth" as a myth. SHAFdfdsoi (talk) 03:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: see faq Cannolis (talk) 05:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bias

It says that a global flood is inconsistent, but 1) it gives no proof, 2) I think it may offend people.

I would suggest just removing that part altogether.

Wait I don't even know how to use these talk pages. 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 22:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We only WP:CITE mainstream academic WP:RS. We don't go by WP:OR. See also WP:CENSOR. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information."

Just trying to fix this thingy. 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 22:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting content based upon multiple reputable academic sources is not appreciated. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that one of the sentences has only one source and that source leads to a 404 error? 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 22:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Link rot is not a reason for deletion. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please cite that. 𝐝𝐬𝐉𝐣𝐣 (talk) 22:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just because the link vanished, it does not mean that the book itself vanished. It was just a link saying what for book it is. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]